Sitting of 13 December 1973

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  CLYDE PORT AUTHORITY (HUNTERSTON ORE TERMINAL) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  NORTHERN IRELAND

    Council of Ireland
    Mr. O'Halloranasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is now in a position to make a statement regarding the Council for All Ireland.
    Mr. McMasterasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what progress has been made at the tripartite talks towards forming a Council of Ireland; and if he will make a statement.
    The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Francis Pym): I would refer hon. Members to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in the House on 10th December, and the text of the agreed communiqué which was printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT of that date.—[Vol. 866, c. 28–41.]
    Mr. O'Halloran: First, I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his new appointment. I wish him every success. I also congratulate all those who took part in the recent discussions. Can he give an assurance that the new Council of Ireland will have free powers and will be allowed to evolve? When will its first meeting take place?
    Mr. Pym: I thank the hon. Gentleman for those kind words. Many people were
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    involved in the conference, and what he said was a proper comment to make on their work as a whole. The position about the functions of the Council of Ireland is referred to in the communiqué, but studies are being put in hand to report on areas of common interest in relation to which the Council of Ireland could take executive decisions and, in appropriate cases, be responsible for carrying those decisions into effect. Further studies will be made within the Council of Ireland but when it will meet for the first time has not been decided. The Assembly will have to appoint its representatives and the Government of the Republic of Ireland will have to do the same before they can consider, together, how and when to proceed.
    Mr. McMaster: I, too, congratulate my right hon. Friend on his appointment and wish him and all those who took part in the tripartite conference every success. Has the Secretary of State also considered where the Council of Ireland should meet—whether in one place or in various places alternating between Northern and Southern Ireland?
    Mr. Pym: Again, I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks. The position is that when representatives of both sides have been appointed they will decide where the first meeting might be.
    Mr. Wellbeloved: Are there any plans to put the proposals for the Council of Ireland to the test of public opinion in Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Pym: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the agreement now reached, and referred to in the communiqué, has been made possible on the basis of the support given to it in Northern Ireland. I know that the hon. Gentleman has followed the whole process with great interest. Following the elections and the agreement between the parties we have now decided that this is how we should proceed. It is the case that the majority of people in Northern Ireland are behind the proposals.
    Mr. Kilfedder: Since a considerable proportion of the members of the Assembly were not invited to send representatives to the full conference, how can my right hon. Friend say that it has the full support of Northern Ireland? Since the 1925 Anglo-Irish Agreement—which

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    was registered with the old League of Nations—was repudiated seven years later by Mr. De Valera and 12 years later replaced by the Eire Constitution, which claimed jurisdiction over Northern Ireland; can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that the Eire Government will not do the same thing again?
    Mr. Pym: The second part of my hon. Friend's question will be for the Eire Government to express a view about. On the first part, there is a later Question on the Order Paper this afternoon dealing with that matter.
    Mr. Strarfon Mills: I also join in the congratulations to my right hon. Friend. I hope that the recent talks will introduce a new era in the relationship between North and South. Will the Secretary of State say something about the method of working of the expert working parties? Presumably they will be at Civil Service level. When are they to meet? Will my right hon. Friend confirm that Northern Ireland civil servants will be involved?
    Mr. Pym: I think that is so, but this work will be done under the auspices of the Council of Ireland when the Government of the Republic and the Assembly have appointed members. It will be under their auspices and responsibility that these studies will take place.
    Rev. Ian Paisleyasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland why he refused membership in the recent Irish talks to certain groups, in view of the fact that they represent over one third of the Northern Ireland Assembly.
    Mr. Pym: I invited the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) as leader of the Democratic Unionist Party, together with Mr. Craig, the leader of the Vanguard Unionist Progressive Party, to put their views to the conference, but this offer was declined.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: The Secretary of State will note that the Question is concerned with membership of the conference and not with an invitation to a deputation to attend and simply put its views. Will he now confirm that over two thirds of Unionists voted against the White Paper? Will he also confirm that when an application goes before the Health Services Board in Belfast the question is asked "Are you a Protestant?".
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    and if the answer is "Yes" the applicant is told that he will not be employed? Can that be taken as the right hon. Gentleman's attitude to Protestants?
    Mr. Pym: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman's attitude to this matter. He well knows that the progress of these matters, which was difficult, could be achieved only by consent, and that was included in the White Paper. We undertook to invite certain people, including the party leaders, to participate. If my invitation to the hon. Member was not an invitation to do that, I do not know what it was.
    Mr. Merlyn Rees: Will the Secretary of State note that Her Majesty's official Opposition at Westminster quite properly were not invited to Sunningdale, and that we would not have talked about punching anybody on the nose if we had been there?
    Mr. Stratton Mills: Would not the groups to which the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) referred have been entitled to attend the original Stormont talks? If they had attended these talks, would not the hon. Gentleman now be in a better position to argue as he does?
    Mr. Pym: However that may be, I nevertheless sent an invitation.
    Mr. Kilfedder: Is it not a fact that the White Paper laid down that the leaders of political opinion in Northern Ireland would be invited to those talks and that that invitation was not given to those groups? If people such as myself are attacked as extremists merely because we assert our constitutional rights to criticise legislation—just as the Labour Party criticised the Industrial Relations Act—there is no point in my remaining here this afternoon.
    Mr. Pym: I think the House knows the basis on which the whole exercise was conducted. I also think that the way in which we carried it out has the support of the House.

    Fowlpest
    Mr. Farrasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the measures being taken to contain the outbreak of fowlpest in Northern Ireland.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Peter Mills): All birds on infected premises are slaughtered, and carcasses, eggs, feeding stuffs and manure are either buried or burned. Thorough cleansing and disinfection are carried out and adjoining farms are put under strict movement control and veterinary supervision. In addition, a policy of ring vaccination around infected farms was introduced on 29th November and further movement controls were imposed.
    Mr. Farr: I thank my hon. Friend for that information. What effect is this serious outbreak likely to have on Christmas supplies and prices in Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Mills: I do not think that it will have much effect. We must get the figures correct. Out of about 13 million birds, only 260,000 are infected, so there will not be the serious effect that my hon. Friend might imagine.
    Mr. Maginnis: Is there any suspicion that this disease has been spread deliberately? Will my hon. Friend inquire into that possibility?
    Mr. Mills: The source of infection is not known. My hon. Friend suggests that it may have been deliberate. That might be one of many reasons, but investigations are continuing and we shall get to the bottom of this outbreak.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: Is the Minister aware that his hon. Friend the Minister of State told a deputation about this matter from North and South Antrim that forensic inquiries were proceeding. Has there been any outcome to those inquiries?
    Mr. Mills: No, there has been no outcome to the inquiries but we are looking into this matter most carefully because we have to find the reason why it spread so rapidly and why it was so virulent.

    Licensing Laws
    Mr. David Jamesasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make proposals designed to liberalise the licensing laws in Northern Ireland.
    The Minister of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. William van Straubenzee): There are no plans to do so at present.
    Mr. James: Does my hon. Friend recognise that the main tourist flow in Ireland is from North to South because of the greater liberality of licensing laws in the South? Would it not be advantageous if the flow were both ways?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: The comparison between the licensing laws of different parts of Ireland shows that there is a certain divergence on Sundays. Obviously this matter can be considered, but there are no plans at present for changing the law.
    Mr. Soref: Does my hon. Friend not agree that sobriety is a high priority in Ulster and that any relaxation of the licensing laws is likely to result in further inflammation of feeling and passion?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: I am glad to take a lesson in sobriety from my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Kilfedder: Is my hon. Friend aware of the great number of illegal drinking dens in Northern Ireland? What action does he intend to take to close down these shebeens, where alcohol is sold which has been taken from hijacked lorries? Does he not agree that the recent liberalisation of licensing laws does not seem to require further extension, especially in view of the high consumption of alcohol in the Province and the number of road accidents directly attributable to drink?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: That is an important point. Unquestionably the extensive destruction of Catholic pubs by Protestants and Protestant pubs by Catholics has led to an extension of illegal drinking. This is a subject of much concern to the chief constable and my right hon. Friend. But I cannot make a further announcement about it this afternoon.

    Prisoners (Relatives' Visits)
    Mr. Stallardasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what financial assistance is available to relatives for visits to prisoners.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: Ordinarily, the cost of such visits must be borne by the visitor. Wives and close relatives, however, who are in receipt of supplementary benefits or who are marginally above the supplementary benefit level may receive

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    financial assistance for certain visits to cover the cost of travel by public transport.
    Mr. Stallard: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the prisoners to whom this Question refers are scattered in gaols from the Isle of Wight to Aberdeen? Two young women are being held in a male prison quite unsuited to the purpose. Many of the prisoners are being forcibly fed and others are in almost constant solitary confinement. Is the hon. Gentleman further aware that all these factors, plus the difficulty of organising visits and of relatives obtaining factual information, mean that these prisoners have become, and I fear will remain, yet another focal point for further troubles in the Six Counties? Will he not now urgently consider the transfer of these prisoners back to Northern Ireland?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: The question of the transfer of the particular prisoners the hon. Member has in mind has been settled. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, who is responsible, has made a clear statement, so I shall not reopen that matter. Generally, the greater number of prisoners of the kind we are talking about who are in this country are here because they requested it. In terms of visits they are all treated the same, and if their close relations, as I defined them, are near or just above the supplementary benefit level, they are all given assistance.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: Does not the Minister feel that he should make a distinction for those prisoners who are in prison without being tried? Should not their nearest and dearest be entitled to financial assistance for visits?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: I am very happy to put right what I think is otherwise an obvious misapprehension—which is unusual for the hon. Member, who usually does his homework. The relations of detainees, to whom he is referring, are treated in exactly the same way as those of prisoners.
    Mr. McNamara: While not entering into the merits of the alleged crimes that these people may or may not have committed, what we are concerned about are the strain and emotional hardship placed upon many of their families in making visits both to the Maze Prison in Northern
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    Ireland and also to prisons in this country. We appreciate what the Minister has said about extra help for those just above the supplementary benefit level, but many hon. Members and members of all communities in Northern Ireland would like a statement that the whole of this matter is being considered much more sympathetically, with the object of giving greater hope, encouragement and assistance to the families, ensuring that they will be fairly treated in seeing their people who are in gaol.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: I cannot respond unduly to the hon. Member. I am certain that we should have a totally humane approach where there are very low resources, and that that should be done regardless of the nature of the crime. I take the point that the hon. Member is not condoning the crime. But beyond that the taxpayer should not reasonably be asked to go. I shall gladly look at any particular case if the hon. Member wishes me to do so.
    Mr. McMaster: Will my hon. Friend review the practice of granting special political status to prisoners who have been tried for terrorist crimes of violence? Is it right that they should have special privileges? Would it not be a better deterrent if all the prisoners in Northern Ireland were treated alike?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: That is a much wider but very important matter. My right hon. Friend has no immediate proposals for changing that status.
    Mrs. McAliskey: Why is it possible for certain prisoners who have been convicted in Northern Ireland to be allowed to serve their sentences in British prisons at their request, while the Minister has consistently refused to allow prisoners who are currently undergoing grossly inhuman treatment in British prisons to be transferred at their request to prisons in Northern Ireland?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: The reason, baldly, is very simple. It is that in Northern Ireland we are under great pressure in terms of prison accommodation, for reasons that the hon. Lady will know. Although the matter is in no way in my jurisdiction or that of my right hon. Friend, I must say clearly that the ordinary duty of safeguarding the health of a prisoner is a proper and understood

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    duty over here, and is a very different thing from talking about inhuman treatment.

    Veterinary Service
    Mr. Charles Morrisonasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the State veterinary service in Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Peter Mills: Despite recruitment difficulties and a general manpower shortage, the Ministry of Agriculture in Northern Ireland continues to provide a satisfactory veterinary service.
    Mr. Morrison: What the Minister has said is most encouraging. Is he aware that the same happy story does not exist in England in terms of the State veterinary service? Will he have discussions with his colleagues in the Ministry of Agriculture in England with a view to comparing notes, so that they may learn from the happy experience in Northern Ireland, with particular regard to the conditions of employment of members of the State veterinary service?
    Mr. Mills: The situation is not entirely happy in Northern Ireland. There is a shortfall of about 20. My hon. Friend is correct to say that the Ministry in Northern Ireland has been in touch with the Ministry here, and we are looking into the difficult problem he has put before the House.

    Owner-occupied Houses (Purchase)
    Mr. Stratton Millsasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the working of the scheme to purchase the houses of owner-occupiers in troubled areas; and if he will now review the operation of the scheme to cover a wider range of cases of hardship.
    The Minister of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. David Howell): 1,176 applications have been received in connection with the scheme. The 903 cases dealt with have included 659 recommendations to purchase. The scheme is kept under constant review, as a result of which a more favourable basis for valuation was recently introduced. The advisory committee, which considers all applications, recently recommended further changes in the scheme and these are being considered.
    Mr. Mills: Is the Minister aware that we welcome the fact that there has been an increase in activity in the scheme in the last two months, and that we also welcome the promise of a continuing review? Will he say a little more about the new basis of valuation in terms of valuation of property before it was vandalised rather than at current market values? Will he also say a little more about the position of building societies?
    Mr. Howell: I am aware of my hon. Friend's keen interest in this scheme since its inception, which has been greatly welcomed. As to the basis of valuation, the change which has now taken place is that many of the houses considered had been vandalised and consequently had been lowered in valuation. It was thought fairest not to include damage due to vandalism when offering a price. As for building societies, the Building Societies Association has been most helpful in its efforts at co-operation in this scheme. We are currently further considering certain aspects with the building societies, and when there are any developments on that front I shall let my hon. Friend know.
    Mr. Stallard: What steps is the hon. Gentleman prepared to take to ensure that property speculation does not go mad in Northern Ireland, as it has in this country?
    Mr. Howell: That is a much wider question, affecting all sorts of factors, such as security, the general atmosphere, and land values in Ireland. If the hon. Gentleman will write to me on this matter I shall do my best to give him answers.
    Mr. Kilfedder: Will my hon. Friend instruct the Northern Ireland Housing Executive to implement the Conservative policy of selling to tenants houses which they occupy?
    Mr. Howell: That, again, is another question. These issues have to be considered in the special circumstances of Northern Ireland, bearing in mind particular housing needs and the security situation. If the hon. Gentleman tables a Question or writes to me on the matter, I shall do my best to meet his point.
    Mr. Wellbeloved: By how much will the scheme add to the several hundred

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    million pounds already contributed by the British taxpayer to Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Howell: It is not possible to say. The answer depends on the number of houses finally purchased by the Housing Executive and the values fixed. It will not be a large sum, but it will bring a great measure of relief to some hard-pressed and desperate people.

    Constitution
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on the working of the new constitution.
    Mr. Pym: The legislation before this House today will, if approved, devolve powers on a Northern Ireland executive with effect from 1st January 1974.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on his appointment. Does he agree that he who strives to disrupt a constitutionally-elected legislative assembly discredits his cause and forfeits the sympathy of loyal subjects throughout the Kingdom?
    Mr. Pym: I sympathise with that view.
    Sir G. de Freitas: Is the Secretary of State aware that the Registrar-General reports that in my constituency there are more people from Northern Ireland than in any other constituency in Great Britain? Is he also aware that they overwhelmingly support the new constitution?
    Mr. Pym: I was not aware of that demographic fact, but I note what the right hon. Gentleman says.
    Mrs. McAliskey: Since when the original elections took place to the Northern Ireland Assembly, it was neither clear what powers it had nor whether an Executive would be formed or a Council of Ireland would emerge, will the right hon. Gentleman, having completed his package, and the parties to it being unanimously in agreement, be prepared to put the new coalition to a General Election in Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Pym: The position is that the constitution of Northern Ireland remains in the form passed by this House. We shall be adverting to these matters later this afternoon.

    Police Act (Northern Ireland) 1970
    Mr. Peter Archerasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many complaints have been made under Section 13 of the Police Act (Northern Ireland) 1970, since the Act came into force; in how many such complaints a report has been sent to the Attorney-General; how many such reports have resulted in the institution of criminal proceedings; and in how many cases such proceedings have terminated in a conviction.
    Mr. van Stranbenzee: 2,617 complaints were received up to 11th December 1973, of which 471 were referred to the Attorney-General and the Director of Public Prosecutions (Northern Ireland). As a result, criminal proceedings were instituted in 14 cases, one of which is pending. Three of the remaining 13 cases resulted in convictions.
    Mr. Archer: I thank the hon. Gentleman for those figures. Does he agree that this is one of the more abrasive factors in Northern Ireland politics? I do not intend to cast any reflection on the RUC as a whole, but does the hon. Gentleman agree that those figures show that there is a case for a complaints procedure that is manifestly seen to be independent, so that all those concerned are satisfied that there is no whitewashing?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: The hon. and learned Gentleman follows these matters closely and he will have noticed that this subject is referred to in what has become known as the Sunningdale communiqué. He will not expect me to go any further this afternoon, but I agree with the general thesis he set out. I find that the vast majority of police officers in all parts of the United Kingdom would wish to have a procedure of this kind.
    Mr. McMaster: Will my hon. Friend confirm that the RUC has a very fine record, especially in terms of its rate of detection before these troubles started, which was the highest in the United Kingdom? Is my hon. Friend aware that, facing the difficulties that it has over the past three years, the record of the force has been exemplary and the number of cases proved against its members very, very small?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: It is because it is a force of very high standards that its members will wish to have a complaints procedure which can be seen by all to be perfectly fair.

    Student Costs (Parental Contributions)
    Mr. Kilfedderasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many students in institutions of higher education in Northern Ireland are receiving financial help from their parents towards the costs of their education; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. David Howell: The number of students in Northern Ireland receiving financial help from their parents towards the cost of their higher education is not known. The value of a scholarship paid from public funds to a student is subject to abatement if the net parental income is not less than £1,500—after taking into account certain allowances. In such a case the parent is expected to contribute to the student's maintenance.
    Mr. Kilfedder: Does not my hon. Friend think that it is a sad admission by the Government that they do not know how many parents have to make a contribution towards the maintenance of their sons and daughters at schools of higher education? Does he not accept that the system of parental contributions and the means test by which they have been assessed, which have been in operation for nearly 25 years, punish parents and students alike, and that there is a need for an annual review and an immediate need to increase the maximum grant for students, in order to take account of galloping inflation?
    Mr. Howell: The arrangement in Northern Ireland hitherto has followed closely the pattern in Great Britain, and there is close liaison between the Ministry of Education and the Department of Education and Science. As my hon. Friend knows, my right hon. Friend has these matters currently under review, and any future arrangements made in Great Britain will obviously affect, and will be kept in liaison with, arrangements made in Northern Ireland.
    Mr. McManus: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that he must be aware by now of the considerable displeasure in
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    the student body generally in Northern Ireland with the levels of grants? Since this is one of the few non-political types of agitation going on in Northern Ireland at the moment, does he not agree that it should be encouraged, and that he should immediately take steps to increase the grants so that we may have more non-political and less political agitation in the future?
    Mr. Howell: I am not sure about the general proposition that we should encourage agitation. As to the proposal that student grants should be increased, this has been put forward. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science has said that she is currently reviewing it, and the outcome will obviously influence the outcome in Northern Ireland.

  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Turkeys
    Mr. Ashtonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what estimates he has made of the increase in price per pound of turkey from Christmas 1969 to Christmas 1973.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mrs. Peggy Fenner): The price of frozen oven-ready turkeys in supermarkets this Christmas is likely to be in the region of 8p per lb. higher than at Christmas 1969.
    Mr. Ashton: The hon. Lady has not given the figures for fresh birds, and they represent an increase of a quarter to a third on prices since last year alone. Does not she realise that the time has come to introduce subsidies on foods, especially on Christmas foods such as this?—otherwise half the families in the country will end up having to have gruel for Christmas instead of their usual Christmas dinners.
    Mrs. Fenner: The Price Commission expects that fresh birds will be about 45p or 50p a lb. this year. Yesterday the poultry traders said that prices are likely to be a bit below that. Supplies this year have increased by 500,000 turkeys. That gives a clear indication that they expect to sell more.
    Sir R. Cary: Did not we pay a bonus last year and the year before to help in these matters? Can my hon. Friend say whether a similar bonus was paid in 1969?
    Mrs. Fenner: I do not recall a £10 bonus to pensioners in 1969.
    Mr. Tuck: Does not the hon. Lady think that from the point of view of the average housewife and her family this will be the worst Christmas that they have ever experienced? In view of the fact that the Government's measures have so far turned out to be totally ineffective, will the Government either produce effective measures to control inflation or resign?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. This has not much to do with turkeys.
    Mr. Tuck: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It certainly has to do with Christmas.

    Food Prices
    Mr. Thomas Coxasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the percentage increase in food prices since June 1970.
    Mrs. Fenner: No further figures have been issued since the reply given to the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members on 22nd November.—[Vol. 864, c. 1526–30.]
    Mr. Cox: Since those figures indicate an increase of about 45 per cent. since June 1970, is the hon. Lady aware of the grave effect that this is having on many people, especially the pensioners, about whom the Government now claim to be so concerned? Is she further aware that possibly within the very near future further measures will be announced by the Government which will have even more disastrous effects on many people? How much longer will it be before the Government stop making excuses and start introducing action, such as subsidising key food commodities on which many people feel that money should be spent, since they should have greater priority than expensive projects like the Concorde and the Channel Tunnel developments?
    Mrs. Fenner: The hon. Gentleman has referred to the increase in the food price index. He should recognise that that forms
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    part of the cost of living as a whole, which has increased by 32·5 per cent. Bearing in mind that average earnings have increased by 47 per cent. and pensions by 55 per cent. since June 1970, he cannot claim that they have not kept ahead of prices.
    Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: I realise that it is a hardy annual, but can my hon. Friend comment on the current price of Cox's?
    Mrs. Fenner: Both animal and vegetable, it is down.
    Mrs. Shirley Williams: Is the hon. Lady aware that of the countries in the OECD the overall increase in prices in Britain has been among the highest of any in the past three years? Is she aware, secondly, that a respected body—the National Institute of Economic and Social Research——only last week advocated food subsidies as an essential element in a policy of restraint, which the Government say they want? Is she aware, thirdly, that the Chairman of the National Farmers Union pointed out only recently that in view of the shortage of food supplies in this country, Government assistance towards subsidies on feed stocks would be helpful in reducing prices?
    Mrs. Fenner: Dealing with the hon. Lady's first comments, in many of the countries to which she referred the level of food prices is very much higher than in this country in any event. Dealing with her last comments, the President of the National Farmers Union did not refer to the present shortage of food. He said that it was his concern—and he was referring especially to the case of the specialist dairy farmer, who is having temporary difficulties—that there would be difficulties pending the decisions following the annual review.
    Mr. Farr: So that the House may get the right picture, will my hon. Friend say what is the total value of the butter subsidy and the milk subsidy to the British housewife this year?
    Mrs. Fenner: The effect of the butter subsidy is that butter is 2p per lb less to her. I am not certain of the accurate figure in respect of the milk subsidy, but I shall ensure that my hon. Friend has it. I am concerned that the Opposition seem to have no policy on subsidies. Every time they announce the figure the

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    coverage is wider and the amount has shrunk.

    Common Agricultural Policy
    Mr. Deakinsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement about the proposed reform of the Common Agricultural Policy.
    The Minister of State for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Anthony Stodart): My right hon. Friend indicated in his statement on 22nd November—[Vol. 864, c. 1562–8]—that the Council had held a first exchange of views on the Commission's proposals for the improvement of the common agricultural policy. At the meeting on 10th and 11th December the Council had a further discussion on the proposals for individual commodities.
    Mr. Deakins: When will the Government make known to the House of Commons their own views on these proposals for reform, and when will they provide an opportunity for this House to debate those views?
    Mr. Stodart: I think the House will agree that my right hon. Friend has invariably taken the House into his confidence when he has made a statement about the meetings. Of course, any question of a debate is not a matter for me, but I shall pass on the hon. Gentleman's request to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House.
    Mr. Bitten: Will my hon. Friend confirm that at the Council of Ministers' meeting on 10th and 11th December the rejection of Commissioner Lardinois' proposal of a milk tax, already expressed by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, was endorsed by the other Ministers of Agriculture who were present?
    Mr. Stodart: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Maclennan: How long will it take the Government to realise that the House is dissatisfied with the procedure whereunder Ministers communicate decisions taken by the Council of Ministers? When will he come to the House with the Government's proposals for the reform of the common agricultural policy so that we can express our views upon them?
    Mr. Stodart: It is fair to point out that my right hon. Friend has given the House his views on various matters. Before going to the recent meeting he made clear what his views on the milk proposals were.
    Mr. Charles Morrison: Does my hon. Friend agree that a great deal of credit should be reflected on my right hon. Friend the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for the initiative that he took that resulted in the proposals for the reform of the common agricultural policy? On the other hand, does he agree that many of those proposals will have to be amended? Does he also agree that there would be a great chance of this country achieving what it wants if hon. Gentlemen opposite were prepared to play a part in the European Parliament?
    Mr. Stodart: The answer to every point made by my hon. Friend is "Yes, Sir."
    Mr. Shore: Will the Minister confirm that on 10th and 11th December his right hon. Friend put forward a proposal calling for a reduction in the common external tariff on imported foodstuffs? If he did, what reaction did it provoke? Will he also tell us whether his right hon. Friend will make his customary statement on the course of negotiations?
    Mr. Stodart: It is perfectly correct that my right hon. Friend put forward that suggestion. The reaction to it, as I think would be expected among a Community of Nine, was not entirely unanimous. I am quite certain that my right hon. Friend would have been here to answer this Question today had he not had an appointment that I assure the right hon. Gentleman he could not break.

    Deep Sea Fishing (Research)
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on the results of the fishery research, conducted under the auspices of his Department, relating to the catching of fish, at deep levels of water, in the Irish and Celtic Seas.
    Mr. Anthony Stodart: I shall announce the results of the recent voyages in the North-East Atlantic as soon as they

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    have been fully assessed, and I shall discuss them with the industry.
    Mr. Dalyell: What indications are there that deep water fishing like this is a serious source of food supply to this country?
    Mr. Stodart: It is too soon to be very optimistic about this matter. There are some extremely exciting possibilities if the difficulties of deep sea fishing can be got round. The shoals of blue whiting that have been discovered are very extensive.
    Mr. Laurance Reed: Is it not opportune to congratulate our fishery scientists on locating this huge new fishery off Rockall? Will my hon. Friend confirm the sensational size of the potential yield of this fishery? Is this not welcome news for our fishing industry and, indeed, for the British housewife?
    Mr. Stodart: Yes, Sir. I confirm that our scientists estimate the stocks of blue whiting to be about 1 million tons. There are practical difficulties in both catching and filleting, but I believe that they can be overcome in this age of the white heat of the technological revolution.

    Sausages
    Mrs. Joyce Butlerasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will introduce regulations to increase the meat content of sausages provided in catering establishments; and if he will make a statement.
    Mrs. Fenner: No. The minimum meat content for sausages prescribed in the meat products regulations applies at the point of sale to the consumer whether this is in a catering establishment or in a retail shop.
    Mrs. Butler: How much longer are we to be fobbed off with second-rate sausages when we eat out? Is the hon. Lady aware that as long ago as July last year her predecessor said that he would examine the catering sausages loophole, but there has been no improvement. Last month the Daily Mirror found four out of six samples of catering sausages deficient in meat content. When are we to have effective action?
    Mrs. Fenner: I assure the hon. Lady that a catering sausage with less than the minimum prescribed meat content cannot legally be sold to consumers. I understand
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    her concern. As this question has led to misunderstandings in some quarters, this part of the regulations will be reconsidered. The Food Standards Committee has been asked to review this matter in 1974.

    Farm Produce (Damage by Birds)
    Mr. Farrasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what new research is being promoted to contain damage to growing farm and horticultural produce by avian predators.
    Mr. Anthony Stodart: Research on bird pests is continuing on the broad lines described in the last Triennial Report of our Pest Infestation Control Laboratory. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy.
    Mr. Farr: I thank my hon. Friend for his consideration. Will he call the attention of our right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to the fact that the best method of controlling avian predators is with shotguns and, with that in mind, will he review some of the considerations in his Green Paper?
    Mr. Stodart: I am on record in this House as saying that I am very fond of birds. I certainly take note of what my hon. Friend said, but I never regard birds as avian predators.

  PARLIAMENTARY CANDIDATES (DEPARTMENTAL INFORMATION)
  Mr. George Cunninghamasked the Prime Minister if he will issue instructions that Ministers are not to make available to Conservative candidates decisions and correspondence to which such candidates are not parties.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Edward Heath): No instructions are necessary. It is not the practice to make information available to those outside the Government service who have no need to know it. This applies to prospective Conservative candidates.
  Mr. Cunningham: Does not the Prime Minister think it deplorable that a copy of a letter from a Minister to the official leader of a local authority should be sent to a Conservative candidate who had no council position at all and, worse, that he should receive his copy before the

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  leader of the council got his? This is not the first time that this kind of thing has happened in my area. If I give him the details, will he make inquiries? If this is to be the practice of the present Government, succeeding Governments are likely to copy it.
  The Prime Minister: I have already made detailed inquiries into the matter raised by the hon. Gentleman. I understand that there are two cases of which he complains. The Conservative candidate concerned had raised with the council the matter of the listing of houses and the development of the City Road basin. As he had also raised it with the Department and asked for its views, it was quite natural that the Department should let him have its views, in the same way as it lets any other member of the public have its views. Two other members of the public were concerned with the listing of houses and wanted the Government to take action, which they did.
  Both letters were sent at the same time in order to reach the recipients before the public meeting. Neither of them reached the recipients before the public meeting. The Conservative candidate rang the Department and asked why he had not had a reply, and a reply was sent round to him because he was told that the letter was on the way.
  Mr. David Steel: Is the Prime Minister aware that only yesterday afternoon a Minister gave me a very welcome answer to a question on a purely constituency matter? Immediately after leaving the Chamber he telephoned the Conservative Party office in my constituency and gave the information in rather greater detail, so that it rather than the Member of Parliament could relay it to the local Press? Will the Prime Minister be quite straight on this issue and assert that it is Government policy that Members of this House, regardless of party, are treated as the representatives of their constituents?
  The Prime Minister: That is how they are treated. If the hon. Gentleman will send me details of the matter I shall inquire into it. But where members of the public, officials of organisations outside local and central government, or candidates of any party are concerned with any matter and ask for the Department's
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  views, it has long been customary for them to be given.

  NATIONAL UNION OF MINEWORKERS
  Mr. Ashtonasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on his meeting with the leaders of the NUM at Downing Street on 28th November.
  Mr. Adleyasked the Prime Minister when he next intends to meet leaders of the NUM.
  The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Gentlemen to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Strang) on 11th December.—[Vol. 866, c. 196–201.]
  Mr. Ashton: Is the Prime Minister aware that following that meeting he is likely to go down in history as the Prime Minister who brought the nation to its knees because he was unable to handle a situation in which 1 per cent. of the nation's work force banned overtime and which is supposed to have plunged us into a crisis? Will he now consider his own position? Will he stop acting like Captain Bligh on a shipwrecked "Bounty" and consider handing over the helm to the former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who seems to solve bigger problems with a lot less fuss and trouble?
  The Prime Minister: I absolutely repudiate everything that the hon. Gentleman is saying. He may recall that it was after my meeting with the NUM that Mr. Gormley, the president, proposed that the whole matter should be put to a ballot in the coalfields. That was not done, because he was defeated by other members of the executive.
  Mr. Adley: Noting that many responsible members of the Opposition are calling for firm leadership from the Government in these difficult times, does not my right hon. Friend agree that the Government are entitled to expect from the Opposition a certain amount of firm opposition to unfair and inflationary wage claims? Would not it be helpful if members of the Opposition did their best to influence the NUM to call off its industrial dispute?
  The Prime Minister: I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend.
  Mr. William Hamilton: Will the Prime Minister now invoke the machinery of the Industrial Relations Act and compel a ballot by the miners?
  The Prime Minister: I do not propose to do that.
  Sir Harmar Nicholas: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his first meeting with the National Union of Mineworkers took place before the stringency on oil supplies from the Middle East resulting from the conflict was brought to bear? Does he appreciate that every reasonable person in the country would understand it if, in the light of what has happened since then and as a consequence of that stringency, the offer made to the miners had to be reduced? If that meant legislation to amend phase 3, how hon. Members voted would reflect how much they wanted to put the country's survival in front of their own party feelings.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I believe that the people of this country are now coming to understand more and more the consequences of the fuel shortages arising out of the mining and oil situations, about which I propose to make a statement later. I have had two meetings with the NUM—the first was before the stage 3 code was introduced in the House—in order that I should have a very full discussion with the union about the particular situation in the mining industry and the way in which the code would affect the NUM. No Government could have gone further in consultation with a union than the present Government have done.

  NUCLEAR TESTS (DEFORMED BABIES)
  Mr. Dalyellasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the inquiries he promised to undertake into the forecasts by Edinburgh geneticists of the number of babies likely to be born blind or deformed as a result of nuclear tests.
  The Prime Minister: The forecasts made 10 years ago by a geneticist working in Edinburgh, on the evidence then available, are now regarded as having
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  over-estimated the risk of genetic damage from fall-out radiation. A recent report by the United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation tentatively estimates that among the children of those exposed to fall-out, up to two in every million live births may suffer some degree of genetic abnormality, ranging from the slight to the serious.
  Mr. Dalyell: At a time when the good will and co-operation of the countries of the Pacific are more vital than ever, will the Prime Minister press on the French the result of his inquiries, showing that any level of radiation is at any rate a little dangerous, and ask them, as a matter of good will, to cancel the tests which they propose to carry out next year?
  The Prime Minister: As I have repeatedly told the hon. Gentleman, the French Government are well aware of our views. But the United Nations committee has been commissioned to review the levels of atomic radiation in the light of the most recent documents available, of which the hon. Gentleman is fully aware, and we ourselves have a considerable amount of information from the Pacific, which is being analysed.

  BANGLADESH (PRIME MINISTER)
  Mr. Stonehouseasked the Prime Minister if he will issue an invitation to the Prime Minister of Bangladesh to pay an official visit to London.
  The Prime Minister: Sheikh Mujibur Rahman is always welcome here but there are no plans to issue an official invitation at present.
  Mr. Stonehouse: The Prime Minister will know that for its export earnings the Bangladesh economy is largely dependent on jute and jute products, but is he aware that the proposals within the EEC to impose duties on jute products will have a devastating effect on the Bangladesh economy? Will the right hon. Gentleman therefore undertake to study the problem and take it up with our partners in the EEC when he next meets them?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I am perfectly prepared to arrange to have the problem studied further and for it to be dealt with in the Council of Ministers,

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  which is dealing with the question of special arrangements for the sub-continent. Some of these arrangements have already been made, as I think the right hon. Gentleman knows. I am perfectly prepared to ask my right hon. Friend to have a further look at this matter.

  BUILDING REGULATIONS
  Mr. Sydney Chapmanasked the Prime Minister if he is satisfied with the co-ordination between the Department of the Environment and the Department of Employment with regard to the amendment of building regulations with particular reference to the proposed legislation following the Robens Report.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Chapman: As provisions relating to the revision of building regulations originally intended for the new Building Bill have now been transferred to the Safety and Health at Work Bill, when will that Bill be published? There is confusion among interested parties about these very important matters. Will the remaining revised building regulations be introduced in this Session, in a new Building Bill?
  The Prime Minister: I am afraid that I cannot give my hon. Friend the precise date of the introduction of the Bill. We have promised that it will be in this Session. Concerning the other regulations, I think that they will be included in the Bill.
  Mr. Kinnock: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is still immense carnage in the building industry, as the Chief Inspector of Factories' report will have shown him a couple of weeks ago? Does he not know that if he and his Government were not prepared to turn such a benevolent eye on labour-only sub-contracting they could do something effective about cutting the terrible rate of fatalities in the industry?
  The Prime Minister: If the hon. Gentleman is referring to the whole question of safety, and so on, this will be dealt with in the Bill. It will extend to a wide range of buildings—not only workplaces but other buildings.

  ROCKALL
  Mr. Carterasked the Prime Minister if he will make an official visit to Rockall.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Carter: Does not the Prime Minister agree that, however much oil is discovered in the Rockall area, coal will continue to play a strategic part in the nation's short-term and long-term energy requirements? Is he not aware that it is a prerequisite to any solution of the current difficulties with the NUM that that fact be recognised? Does not the right hon. Gentleman feel that the Government ought to make a clear statement on this issue at the earliest possible moment?
  The Prime Minister: The Government have made a clear statement about it. We have produced a policy for coal which has committed £1,100 million of taxpayers' money to the coal industry. That is not just words; it is a firm financial commitment. As I have reminded the House, after that Mr. Gormley himself said, "Now it is up to the miners to produce the goods".
  Mr. Laurance Reed: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the oil that we shall discover in the Rockall-Hatton basin will mean the difference between this country continuing to be reliant on external supplies and becoming entirely self-reliant? Should not the British Government now be prepared to support the new technology which will be required to exploit this asset?
  The Prime Minister: We have indeed been helping to exploit all the technology required for oil in the North Sea and elsewhere. Of course, the world is now competing very fiercely for technology. It is our responsibility to gain the greatest part we can for this country.
  Mr. Douglas: At this juncture will the right hon. Gentleman make a distinct response to the United States Secretary of State's overtures to the effect that the United States would be willing to cooperate in surveying the ocean bed? Will not the right hon. Gentleman concede that this is most pertinent to the situation that is likely to be encountered in the Rockall-Hatton bank area?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I propose to deal with this in my statement shortly.

  INDUSTRIAL AND POLITICAL AFFAIRS (PRIME MINISTER'S SPEECH)
  Mr. Skinnerasked the Prime Minister if he will place in the Library a copy of his public speech on industrial and political affairs at Nelson on 23rd November.
  The Prime Minister: I did so on 27th November.
  Mr. Skinner: Does the Prime Minister remember that in the speech that he made on that date he referred to the miners' dispute which had just commenced—the overtime ban? Does he also recall that only three weeks prior to that speech he stood at the Dispatch Box and blamed a £2,000 million deficit on the balance of payments, a 40 per cent. increase in food prices, and a 13 per cent. minimum lending rate, and all that goes with that, not on the miners but on world prices and the weather? Does not it take a Prime Minister with a split mind to change in such a short time?
  Mr. William Clark: Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is the avowed intention of the Communist Party to cripple the capitalist system? Would it not therefore be a good idea to publish a list of those people within the trade union movement who have Communist affiliations, so that the silent majority in the trade union movement can realise what sort of people are leading them?
  The Prime Minister: I should not have thought there was any doubt among politicians about the real purpose of the Communist Party. As regards the second part of the question, I think that this information is available to everyone who studies these matters.

ENERGY SUPPLIES
The Prime Minister (Mr. Edward Heath): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I will make a statement on the energy situation.
The ban on overtime working by the coal miners has led to a sharp fall in coal
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supplies to the power stations which are now running at nearly 40 per cent. below the expected level and are well below normal levels of consumption. Though the electricity supply industry started the winter with good stocks of coal, those stocks are now having to be run down at the rate of about 1 million tons a week at the present rate of electricity use, even after the restrictions already imposed.
To conserve coal stocks my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry instructed the oil companies, on 5th December, to increase supplies of fuel oil to the power stations. But fuel oil supplies are also under pressure, and a still larger allocation to the electricity industry could be only at the expense of severe further cuts to other users of fuel oil.
Deliveries of coal and of oil to the power stations are seriously threatened by the industrial action of train drivers started yesterday by ASLEF.
The ability of the electricity industry to deal with the consequences of these disruptions of supply has been further constrained by the action of the power engineers to restrict out-of-hours working.
It is clear that, so long as the industrial action by the coal miners and the train drivers continues, stocks of fuel at the power stations will continue to be run down at a rate which could, before many weeks had passed, reach a point when large-scale interruption and disruption of electricity supply became unavoidable.
In this situation the Government have a responsibility to take the measures necessary to safeguard the electricity system from major disruption, to prevent essential services from being placed in jeopardy, and to ensure the maintenance of a reasonable level of industrial activity.
The Government judge that this requires further savings amounting to 20 per cent. of electricity consumption, in addition to the measures already announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. This will inevitably require reductions in consumption in homes, in industry and in commerce.
First, in homes. The Government are asking all domestic consumers to restrict the use of electricity for space heating in the home to one room, and then only

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if the householder has no other form of heating available.
Secondly, in industry and commerce. From next Monday 17th December, large, continuous process users will be limited to 65 per cent. of their normal electricity consumption each week. Electricity supplies for other industry and for commercial premises will, in general, be limited to a total of any five days over the next two weeks ending 30th December. After that, from 31st December, they will be limited to three specified days each week, which will be consecutive, and the days will be selected on the basis of schedules drawn up for each Electricity Board area. On the days when firms are free to use electricity, they will not be able to work longer hours than usual. Maintenance or other work not involving the use of electricity could continue on other days and most shops and offices would also be able to open on those days, though they would not be able to use electricity.
Orders to give effect to the restrictions on industry and commerce will be made over the next few days. The orders will name certain essential businesses which will be exempt from these restrictions, and specify other special purposes for which the use of electricity would be permitted at all times, for example, the operation of fire-fighting equipment, computers, cheque-sorting machinery and office machinery.
From next Monday, BBC Television and Independent Television services will close down not later than 10.30 p.m. each evening, save over Christmas and on New Year's Eve.
In addition the Government ask that everyone should economise in the use of all fuels and save all the electricity they can. There are innumerable ways in which all of us can do this: by keeping rooms at lower temperatures and heating them for shorter periods; by switching off lights and by not using electrical appliances unless absolutely necessary; by setting thermostats controlling water-heaters, refrigerators and deep-freezers at the most economical levels; by reducing lighting levels in theatres and other places of entertainment. These are only examples: unless we can save electricity—and indeed all fuels—in every aspect of our daily lives,
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we shall have to impose yet further restrictions on business.
You will have noted, Mr. Speaker, that the measures we propose do not include rota cuts or periods of electricity disconnection. The Government have thought it right to avoid such cuts as long as possible, particularly in view of the fact that the ban on out-of-hours working by the power engineers would mean that any cuts would have to be highly unselective and would be bound to affect essential services. But I must warn the House and the country. If we failed to achieve the necessary savings in electricity consumption as a result of the reduction in domestic consumption for which we are asking and the other measures I have announced, frequent periods of electricity disconnection would become unavoidable. Essential industries and vital services would be cut indiscriminately. Young and old alike, at home, at work, or in hospitals, would all be hit.
I should also like to say a few words to the House about the oil situation.
The restrictions on oil exports by the Arab oil-producing countries affect the whole world: the developed countries of North America, Europe and Japan and the developing countries in Africa, Asia, and Central and South America.
We have been less hard hit than some other European countries, partly because—given normal levels of supply for other fuels—we are less dependent than they are on oil, and partly because the Arab producers have applied their reductions less severely to us.
But, when the whole world is short of oil, we cannot escape entirely.
This month we shall probably get about 85 tons of oil for every 100 tons we expected. The figure may be lower in January.
That is why we have had to ask everyone to economise in the use of oil in the home, in the office, in the factory, in the shops, on the road. But I can confirm that, on the basis of the level of supplies we now expect, the allocations of petrol and diesel to garages will continue at their present levels throughout January.
The situation has been greatly helped by the savings which drivers have made. I should like to take this opportunity to thank the public for their co-operation.

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It is vital that these efforts should continue. The savings in the demand for petrol over the last few days have amounted to about 15 per cent. As a result I can announce today that, although plans for rationing will proceed so that it could be introduced at short notice, it will not be introduced this side of the New Year.
The improvement of the supply position clearly depends upon progress towards a peace settlement in the Middle East. The peace conference is due to open in Geneva on 16th December. We are doing and will continue to do all we can, by diplomatic means, to promote the success of the conference and to make the Arab oil-producing countries aware of the hardship and the damage which the restrictions inflict.
We must hope that the shortage of supplies will be reversed before long. We cannot expect the sharp rise in oil prices to be reversed. This is bound to have a very damaging effect upon our balance of payments, which is in any case running in substantial deficit at present.
Until a few weeks ago we could foresee a progressive diminution in the balance of payments deficit during the course of next year. But that prospect has now disappeared. We shall have to find—and therefore to earn—much more foreign exchange to pay for the same amount of oil.
In the long run some of the money will, we hope, come back to us in payment for increased exports to the oil-producing countries, who will need the goods and services we can provide for their own development. Here again, we in Britain are more fortunate than most. Within five to seven years we can look forward to bringing two-thirds of the amount of oil we need in from the North Sea. That will in due course make an enormous improvement in our balance-of-payments position.
But that does not help in the immediate future. In the short run, if we have to have oil, as we do, and we have to pay more for it, as we shall, the country will have less to spend on other things from abroad. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will be making a statement in the House on Monday about fresh measures to achieve these purposes. For the time
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being as long as the shortages last we shall have to postpone some of the hopes and aims we have set ourselves for expansion and for our standard of living.
Other countries will be similarly affected by the rise in oil prices, and will be having to consider the implications for their balance of payments. In this situation there is an acute danger that, if we all independently resort to deflationary measures for the sake of our individual balances of payments, we shall set off a disastrous slump in the level of world trade. It will require all the effort and all the farsightedness of which the international community is capable to escape that consequence.
I leave for Copenhagen this evening for the Community summit meeting tomorrow. We shall be discussing the energy situation in all its aspects; but this particular aspect will be very much in mind.
The House will have seen that in his speech in London last night Dr. Kissinger announced a proposal for an Energy Action Group, which would have as its goal the assurance of required energy supplies at reasonable cost. Under this proposal the nations of North America, Europe and Japan would co-operate in a programme to rationalise and conserve the use of energy, develop alternative sources of supply, and give existing producers an incentive to increase supply. I shall be discussing that matter with the other Community Heads of Government at Copenhagen; but I can say here and now that the British Government warmly welcome this imaginative proposal, which is in the great tradition of the Marshall Plan after the war.
I must apologise to the House for so long a statement; but it seemed to me that the House should be given as full a statement of the position as possible, as a basis for our debate next week.
Mr. Harold Wilson: The Prime Minister has made an extremely grave speech. No one will complain at the length or comprehensiveness of his statement, particularly as he spelt out the special situations regarding electricity which require special treatment. Without seeking to inhibit any hon. Members who may wish to press the right hon. Gentleman further on what he said and on the implications of his statement, I suggest

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that it will be right for us to take full advantage of the two-day debate which is planned for next week to fulfil our duty to examine the reasons and responsibility for the present state of affairs. We can then put forward our proposals or whatever view we may take for dealing not only with the emergency situation described today but with the more fundamental problems which the country is facing, as shown once again by today's tragic trade figures.
It is right that we should have a full investigation across the Floor of the House next week, as we have just heard that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to make what will clearly be a more wide-ranging economic statement on Monday. The Prime Minister said that in his international discussions this weekend he would hope, as we would all hope, that there will be no lurch into world deflation as a result of the present very difficult situations. I hope that he will be able to ensure that the Chancellor's statement next week will not mean a lurch into deflation in this country.
We shall hear more about the general economic situation from the Chancellor, but will the Prime Minister take it from me, in advance of next week's debate, that the Labour Party does not feel that there is any reason to agree that the trade figures were likely to have improved in the New Year without the new dimension of oil? Indeed, everything seemed to be pointing the other way.
Is the Prime Minister prepared, in view of the gravity of his statement, to agree to the proposition that if the mine workers, the train drivers and the power station staffs were to resume normal work he would empower the Secretary of State for Employment, whose record in another context we all applaud, to enter into immediate discussions with the unions concerned, and the employers, with a view to ending the grave situation, it being understood that the Secretary of State for Employment, with his wise judgment in such matters, will be allowed reasonable flexibility which he considers necessary in respect of the present rigidities imposed by stage 3? The Prime Minister has shown that he is no longer in charge of the situation and that he must depend on interpretations put on any deal by the Pay Board.
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We are all glad that the Prime Minister gave such a warm welcome to the initiative proposed by Dr. Henry Kissinger in London last night. We hope that he will urge on his colleagues that there is a need for communal action on oil which transcends any individual country or, indeed, Western Europe. I hope that the Prime Minister will do everything in his power to fulfil the proposal which he has so warmly endorsed.
The Prime Minister gave what appeared to be an assurance that there was no question of introducing petrol rationing this side of the New Year. The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, if he was correctly reported, recently gave the impression that there was no question of introducing petrol rationing before the end of January. Does the Prime Minister's statement represent a change? Is the Prime Minister prepared to endorse the statement of the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry that there is no question of petrol rationing before the end of January?
The Prime Minister: As I said in my statement, on the present basis of supplies the present allocation of petrol can continue until the end of January. I gave an assurance that there would not be rationing this side of the New Year. Obviously the equation depends not only on supply but on demand. Demand will depend en other available forms of transport. I have given an assurance about the New Year—namely, that the present allocation will remain until the end of January.
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for what he said about my welcome to Dr. Kissinger's proposal. We shall be discussing that matter in Copenhagen, together with a number of wide-ranging proposals for relations between Europe and the Arab countries and the future supply of oil. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will make a statement later on the general question of the economy. I note the right hon. Gentleman's declaration that he does not wish any measure of deflation.
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I say that I have noted on previous occasions that he has made negotiating offers across the Floor of the House. I must say to him that I think it better that negotiations on the present

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industrial disputes should not be dealt with in that way—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I say that seriously, in a situation in which the industrial disputes which now exist are threatening the life of this country. I am prepared, as is my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment, to consider proposals which are made and to reflect upon them. I am not prepared to enter into discussions across the Floor of the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Because the trade unions themselves dislike it intensely, as I was told only too plainly by the National Union of Mineworkers when its representatives last came to see me.
Let us deal with these matters through the proper channels. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to deal with inflation and to look after the national interest, it is not wise to encourage people to try to break stage 3.
Mr. Harold Wilson: If the Prime Minister wishes to import such a note into the discussion, does he recall that when Parliament used to have control of these matters under the last Labour Government, it had the right to vote on every order which was made? These matters were not left to authoritarian bodies outside the control of the Government and Parliament. Let the right hon. Gentleman remember that he used to invoke the TUC, the doctors and everyone else against national policies.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman feel that the House of Commons has the right to raise the suggestion that the Secretary of State for Employment should be given the powers suggested? Are we all to be gagged on these important issues? The right hon. Gentleman referred to what the miners said to him. Does he mean to tell us that if I had not referred to that way of settling the miners' dispute he would have agreed to it?
The Prime Minister: Of course Parliament has the right to discuss these matters at any time it wishes. What I am suggesting to the right hon. Gentleman is that he should not try to negotiate the settlement of a dispute across the Floor of the House with me. If he sends me a confidential letter on the matter, I hope he will keep it confidential.
Mr. Skeet: After the Arab auctions, where oil is changing hands at between
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16 and 17 dollars a barrel, will my right hon. Friend endeavour to give us his interpretation of the likely cost to the balance of payments of the higher prices which are likely to be paid in world markets? Will he also do his utmost to ensure that the chemical industry gets the necessary naphtha and fuel oil essential to it?
The Prime Minister: I do not think it possible for anyone to forecast what will be the company price of oil during 1974. Of course, there is an escalation clause in the arrangements which were agreed in Vienna, but wo do not know the extent to which the oil-producing countries are being influenced by the prices at which some of the participation oil has been sold in the last few days. There is a very wide area of uncertainty in this matter and for that reason I would not care to forecast—nor, I think, would anyone else. Therefore, one cannot say what the precise impact on the balance of payments is likely to be.
We have fully recognised the requirements of the chemical industry from the beginning in the allocations.
Mr. David Steel: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider setting up an energy commission, with one Minister responsible for it to this House, to introduce a fair and comprehensive system of rationing of fuels as soon as possible, giving priority to industrial production?
The Prime Minister: We have an allocation scheme for industry which is now working smoothly. We have the machinery to carry out rationing when it is judged right to do so. The first stage for private consumers has been completed and the machinery for special allowances will be completed within a reasonable time.
I do not think the need exists to set up an energy commission to handle this matter. The House has discussed the question of rationing. A rationing system, however one tries to make it fair, is bound to involve unfairnesses. So long as the present situation exists, in which people are exercising restraint themselves, with the result that there is reasonable flexibility in use, we judge that rationing is not necessary before the New Year.
Sir Gilbert Longden: Do not Dr. Kissinger's proposals and the energy situation generally provide another argument, if one were needed, that it is absolutely essential that the EEC should speak and act as one?
The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I think that is the case. I think that Dr. Kissinger expects this. I had the opportunity of a talk with him yesterday. It is part of the relationship between the EEC, Japan and the United States. I believe that we are likely to be far more effective in our long-term policy with the Arab world if Europe speaks with one voice. It involves investment, Arab countries' balances, and development of the Arab world. All this has to be done on an enormous scale.
Mr. Palmer: Is the Prime Minister aware that he has announced today some of the severest restrictions ever in the history of the British electricity supply industry? Should he not examine his own responsibility in this matter for bringing in an incomes policy which in manifestly unfair and unjust to devoted servants who have never before resorted to industrial action in the 60 years of the electricity supply industry? Does he not feel that he should depart, if he can, from this obstinate attitude of mind which he possesses?
The Prime Minister: I was about to sympathise with the hon. Gentleman in the problem he raised because we have always recognised that a particular difficulty is involved. I hope that, in the process of negotiation, those concerned will find a solution to it. I cannot accept the last part of what the hon. Gentleman said because what the House approved in the code is by far the most flexible form of incomes arrangement which has existed in this country in all the attempts which have been made in the last decade.
Mr. Maude: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, while it is one thing for coal miners and electricity power engineers to refuse overtime work, the public will become increasingly angry if ASLEF train drivers continue to receive full wages for virtually refusing to work at all?
The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right, but this is a matter for the British Railways Board.
Mr. Heffer: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, whilst it is quite correct that negotiations should not be conducted across the Floor of the House of Commons, it is true that, over a long period of time, it is precisely because of their so-called incomes policies that Governments have got themselves into this sort of situation? Does not he also agree that it is the Government's rigidity that is leading to this grave industrial situation? Would not the right hon. Gentleman further agree that, in a democracy, one cannot smash the trade unions but can only negotiate with them? Is it not better to have negotiations now to solve the problems rather than get into a situation where there is confrontation and no end in sight except disaster?
The Prime Minister: Hon. Members surely recognise that the present Government have done more to negotiate with the unions, and to carry on discussions with the TUC, either separately or with the CBI, than any other Government in British history. The hon. Gentleman talks about flexibility. He is talking not only about a basic rate but about the flexibility arrangements to meet particular problems, which the miners have used to deal with their holidays anomaly; the unsocial hours provisions, which the miners have used to deal with those working on night-shift; and the opportunity to have a productivity or efficiency agreement, which has been offered to the miners. All of these aspects provide flexibility, and they add up to a 16½ per cent. increase in one year. If by "flexibility" the hon. Gentleman means going higher than 16½ per cent. in one year for one group of workers, that is completely unacceptable.
Mr. Edward Taylor: In view of the uncertainty which will exist between now and Monday, can my right hon. Friend say whether consideration has been given to closing the money markets and the stock market?
Secondly, in view of the hardship which people will suffer if there are power cuts at home, particularly the elderly and disabled living at the top of multi-storey flats, will my right hon. Friend give instructions or advice to local authorities to set up action groups to visit elderly or disabled people who live alone in multi-storey flats and who may not have a lift, heating and lighting?
The Prime Minister: The Government do not intend to bring about the closing of the markets my hon. Friend mentioned.
We fully recognise the difficulties that will be involved in the power cuts. This is why we have adopted the procedures I have announced to the House in an attempt to avoid power cuts over an area which hurts particularly those my hon. Friend mentioned, the aged and the sick. If the whole country will cooperate, as I believe it wants to do, in the proposals I have made for reducing the use of electricity—not other fuels—in the home, it should be possible to avoid power cuts.
I wholeheartedly agree with my hon. Friend that many people in the community feel that they would like to perform a service to their fellow citizens. This they can best do at this difficult time by visiting them in their homes, helping to alleviate difficulties which may arise—for example, by doing the shopping, and so on.
Mr. Ewing: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that what his statement amounts to is an admission that the country is gradually grinding to a halt? To prevent this happening will he recognise the vitally important part which miners, power supply workers and ASLEF train drivers play in keeping the economy of the country going? Will he make it clear what approaches have been made by the new Secretary of State for Employment to the trade unions since the last time it was announced that the unions and the Minister had met? If the Prime Minister is serious about wanting to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion to these disputes, may I ask him how long are the Government prepared to sit waiting for an approach from the trade unions instead of themselves making that approach?
The Prime Minister: The purpose of the arrangements I have announced to the House is to maintain the life of this country at a reasonable level and to maintain a reasonable level of industrial production. It will be far lower than this country ought to be producing at the moment, especially with all the opportunities open to it for exporting to the world. That is not the responsibility of the Government. It is the responsibility of those who are not producing the fuel which we could use. We
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accept the responsibility of seeing that what is available is fairly distributed between the domestic consumer and industry. We are determined to keep this country surviving at a reasonable level in both these instances. My right hon. Friend, since he became Secretary of State for Employment, has had a number of discussions with union leaders. These have been confidential and it is not customary to make details known to the House or outside.
Mr. Wyn Roberts: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the level of coal production is about 28 per cent. down, and that this jeopardises the basis of phase 3? Does he agree that if the level of permissible wage increases is to be changed that level should be revised downwards?
The Prime Minister: The loss of production is at present rather higher than my hon. Friend said. He raised the basic question whether, with such a loss of production and growth in the country as a whole, it is still justifiable to make the sort of offer which has been made by the NCB to the miners. I emphasise that if hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite are urging the Government to deal with inflation they cannot justify going further than the NCB has gone with the miners, or justify going further with other groups.
Mr. Elystan Morgan: In view of the much more severe hardships that will be suffered by the development areas compared with the rest of the country, and in the light of their generally debilitated condition, may I urge the Prime Minister to consider substantial relaxations in the rigour of the restrictions announced for those areas this afternoon?
The Prime Minister: It is difficult to accede to the hon. Gentleman's request, particularly from the point of view of the electricity supply industry. Where I do agree with him is that at a time when we have real development taking place in the development areas, and, as he knows as well as anyone, when we have brought unemployment down to a substantially lower level than for many years, it is wrong that the country should be afflicted in a way which will result in the development areas suffering more than other areas.
Mr. Tugendhat: It is clear that the measures announced by the Prime Minister today will have an effect on unemployment. Has he been able to produce any estimates of the likely level of unemployment during the coming months in view of Sir Frederick Cather-wood's statement and, if so, has he been able to draw these to the attention of ASLEF and the mineworkers' union?
The Prime Minister: When, in the New Year, the country comes on to what is a three-day working week, either Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday, Friday, Saturday, then the numbers of those who will not be working for half of the week will be substantial. This is a consequence of the measures I have announced. There can be a change only if the coal supplies are resumed and the country gets the fuel it requires.
Mr. Sheldon: Is it not clear that as a result of the large increase in the price of oil, coal is now very cheap and the Prime Minister should thus find it reasonably easy to settle at a much higher level of wages with the mineworkers than has been so far negotiated? Is it not astonishing that, at a time of national emergency when the price of coal is so cheap, the Prime Minister should refuse to negotiate with the mineworkers?
The Prime Minister: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that we should raise the price of coal substantially when his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and all other Labour Members have been continually criticising the Government for rising prices? Is that what he is suggesting? Secondly, is he not aware that the £44 million offered by the NCB will have to be met by the taxpayer?
Mr. Walters: Would my right hon. Friend agree that if British foreign policy on the Middle East, enunciated so clearly over three years ago, had been accepted there would not be an oil crisis today? When my right hon. Friend goes to the European Summit, since there have been some economic advantages to this country and to Europe because of our policy, will he ensure that a European policy is formulated which does not frustrate those advantages?
The Prime Minister: I think I can give that assurance because this was agreed between the Foreign Ministers in
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their statement. It was an agreed foreign policy towards the Middle East, the Arab world and Israel. I am hopeful that the Heads of Government will reaffirm the policy worked out by the Foreign Ministers.
Mr. Benn: Can the Prime Minister tell the House why rationing is being delayed when transport and agriculture are so obviously affected? Secondly, can he say why he has not announced a total ban on the export of coal and oil since the country now faces such dislocation? Finally, is he telling the House that, confronted with this situation, Members of Parliament should not be allowed to urge the Government to be flexible about the item of policy which is preventing a settlement?
The Prime Minister: The amount of coal which is exported is very small indeed. The arrangements with various suppliers are mutual arrangements. What we have to weigh up, especially with oil products, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, is the balance of advantage in cutting off some of the exchanges which at present we make to get other oil products back. In calculating this advantage we believe at the moment that the arrangements are suitable to us. All of these things can be reviewed. As for petrol, I have said that supplies can be maintained on the present basis until the end of January. I have given the assurance that we do not propose to introduce rationing before the New Year. This assurance makes the position clear to people for the Christmas period and up to the New Year and need not therefore, lead to any particular difficulty at the pumps. On the right hon. Gentleman's last point, I am saying that we will not give way to grossly inflationary wage claims proposed by him and his colleagues.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Wilson, business question.
Mr. Kelley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As the Prime Minister made several references to the position in the mining industry, I am surprised that you, Mr. Speaker, did not take an opportunity to call an hon. Member from the coalfields to take part in discussion of this issue.
Mr. Speaker: If the hon. Gentleman wishes to criticise me there are ways in which he can do so. I do my best. I do not think that hon. Members who represent mining constituencies can complain that they have not been frequently called in the past.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Harold Wilson: Will the Leader of the House state the business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. James Prior): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY 17TH DECEMBER—Until about seven o'clock, remaining stages of the Land Tenure Reform (Scotland) Bill, and of the Biological Weapons Bill.
Motion relating to the Import Duties (General) (No. 8) Order.
Motion on the European Communities (Definition of Treaties) (No. 2) Order.
TUESDAY 18TH DECEMBER AND WEDNESDAY 19TH DECEMBER—(7th allotted Supply Day)—Debate on the Economic and Energy Situation, which will arise on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.
At the end on Tuesday, consideration of the Queen's message and of the motion to approve the Emergency Regulations.
At the end on Wednesday, remaining stages of the Horticulture (Special Payments) Bill and of the Charlwood and Horley Bill.
THURSDAY 20TH DECEMBER—Motions on the Rate Support Grant (Increase) Orders.
FRIDAY 21ST DECEMBER—It will be proposed that the House should rise for the Christmas Adjournment until Tuesday, 15th January, 1974.
In putting forward this date, Mr. Speaker, the Government will be especially aware of the possible need of asking the House to resume sooner.
Mr. Wilson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are grateful to the Government for agreeing to what we
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asked, namely, that if the Chancellor has any proposals to make, he should make them on Monday so that when the House considers these matters on Tuesday and Wednesday we shall have the whole picture in front of us? There are distinguished precedents, under successive Governments, for statements being made not during the debate but before it, including the one concerning yourself, Mr. Speaker, on 25th July 1961. We are grateful that we shall be given the complete picture.
Mr. Prior: I am grateful for what the right hon. Gentleman said, but I warn the House that the statement on Monday will be fairly long so that there will be ample information for hon. Members.
Mr. Wilson: With the rearrangement of business which the right bon. Gentleman has announced, we should have adequate time to question the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in so far as it will be necessary, in the debate, and the House will co-operate in the rest of the business of the day, including what will be an extremely important debate on harmonisation tariffs, value added tax and other things.
Mr. Prior: This is correct, but I hope the House recognises that the two-day debate will follow, in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer will take part.
Mr. Powell: Will my right hon. Friend endeavour to ensure that as soon as possible after the Christmas Recess we shall have the opportunity to take a decision on the ways in which the House is to exercise control over the secondary legislation of the European Community?
Mr. Prior: I apologise to the House for the fact that we are not to have this debate before Christmas, as I had hoped. This is not possible only because of the rearrangement of business which I have announced. I want to have the debate very soon after we return because it is important that we come to a decision on what methods the House should adopt to debate these important matters.
Mr. Lipton: The Government promised that we should have the report of the Lane Committee on abortion law before the end of the year. Is that promise to be kept?
Mr. Prior: I welcome the hon. Gentleman back after his illness. I am not certain that the Government ever promised that the report would be available to the House by the end of the year. It has been said that the report is to be in the hands of the Government by the end of the year. As soon as it is printed it will be published and made available to the House.
Dame Irene Ward: May we expect the order relating to the Kielder Dam before Christmas, in view of the fact that it does not arouse any controversy? It would be very helpful to have the order before the Christmas Recess. The order is needed so as to get on with providing water which is very important for industry. At the moment industry needs everything it can get.
Mr. Prior: I have done my best for my hon. Friend, but I regret that the order will not be available before the Christmas Recess. It will, however, be available shortly afterwards. I know of the interest which my hon. Friend has taken in this matter and I have done everything I can, but I have to admit defeat.
Mr. Charles R. Morris: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the Northwest there is anxiety that the Minister for Transport Industries is about to announce rejection of an application for a grant from the SELNEC Passenger Transport Authority, for the Manchester Piccadilly-Victoria rapid transit system, of £100 million? Is he aware that such a decision would be considered an outrage and may precipitate a crisis of confidence in the Government's transport policy? Will the right hon. Gentleman take the Minister for Transport Industries to one side and remind him of the pledges which the Government gave about open government at the time of the last General Election? Further, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that if the Minister for Transport Industries is to make an announcement he will make a statement in the House next week on this very important subject?
Mr. Prior: I shall have this matter investigated and I shall talk to my right hon. Friend about it.
Mr. Marten: As there have been three meetings of the Council of Ministers this week, may we expect a statement on the matter next week?
Mr. Prior: I would have thought it likely that the Prime Minister would either refer in his speech next week to the summit conference or make a statement, but I would like to examine the matter. As for other statement resulting from Ministers being in Brussels this week, I would like to inform myself as to exactly what has been discussed and thereafter let my hon. Friend know the position.
Mr. Alfred Morris: Is the Leader of the House aware that we expect him to take seriously and as a matter of urgency the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Openshaw (Mr. Charles R. Morris)? We feel that there has been an unconscionable delay in a decision being reached from the Minister for Transport Industries. Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that we shall have a definite inviolable statement next week?
Mr. Prior: I like to see brotherly love from the Opposition and I take careful note of what both brothers have said.
Mr. Stanbrook: Is my right hon. Friend aware of Early Day Motion No. 10 regarding the right of engineers to practise?
[That this House, mindful of the fact that from 31st December 1973 the right of many thousands of qualified engineers to practise in the United Kingdom and the European Economic Community will be in jeopardy, urges Her Majesty's Government to seek an urgent settlement between the Council of Engineering Institutions and the many known non-chartered bodies such as the Institution of Heating and Ventilating Engineers.]
Unless something is done before the end of this month the rights of perfectly well-qualified engineers to practise in Europe will come to an end.
Mr. Prior: I know quite a bit about this, but I cannot add to what my hon. Friend said on 19th November.
Mr. Bidwell: Will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that there will be a recall of Parliament sooner than the

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date which he announced today should the grave industrial crisis and the present industrial relations situation prevail and continue into the recess period and should it look like worsening, especially if the Government envisage using troops in any activity which is normally undertaken by workers?
Mr. Prior: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the House has already lost up to a week of its recess by today's announcement. I have given the undertaking that we may need to ask the House to resume sooner than the date announced.
Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Does the right hon. Gentleman believe that if the rest of the country is on a three-day week we shall resume after the recess and be on a five-day week?
Mr. Prior: We shall be on a five-day week up to Christmas. I shall have carefully to consider how we arrange business in the New Year.
Mr. S. C. Silkin: Can the right hon. Gentleman answer the question which I put to him during business questions two weeks ago and privately a week ago and which has been the subject of many questions in the House, namely, whether a decision has been made, and if so when it will be announced, on the renewal of the right of individual petition to the European Commission on Human Rights? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the present period will expire before we resume after the Christmas Recess and that it is most urgent that a decision should be announced immediately?
Mr. Prior: I apologise to the hon. and learned Gentleman. I thought that a decision had been conveyed to him and to the House. I shall check to see why it has not been conveyed and ensure that an announcement is made either next week or during the Adjournment debate, whichever is the sooner.
Mr. Spearing: Does the Lord President of the Council recall that during business questions last week he undertook to inform myself or the House whether it would be possible to debate the EEC general system of preference before that decision was made? Over 100 hon. Members have signed Motion No. 88:
[That, in view of the detailed and far reaching negotiations now taking place within EEC circles in Brussels concerning Associate Status, Generalised Preferences, the European Development Fund and other related matters, this House believes that Her Majesty's Government should enter into no agreements about future policy in these spheres until there has been an opportunity fully to debate any proposals within this House.]
Will the right hon. Gentleman assure us on the matter and say why he has not been able to find time to debate the matter next week?
Mr. Prior: The matters referred to in the motion were not the subject of deadlines in the Paris summit communiqué of October 1972. With regard to the question of associate status and the European Development Fund, the present Yaounde-Arusha Convention expires on 31st January 1975. In order to allow time for ratification, the Protocol 22 negotiations for successor arrangements will have to be concluded by next summer. Whether this timetable will be met remains to be seen.
As regards the improvements for the Community's generalised preference scheme, this is a continuing process with no final deadline. While I shall continue to bear in mind hon. Members' requests, I cannot give any undertaking to find time for a debate before decisions are taken. But it seems to me that a good many of the decisions will not be taken before time is available.
Mr. Warren: Will my right hon. Friend be prepared to give time in the near future to debate Early Day Motion No. 103 calling for the banning of beam trawling by Her Majesty's Government around the coasts of this country which has received support from 60 hon. Members on both sides of the House?
[That this House calls upon Her Majesty's Government to ban the use of beam trawls by fishing boats within the 12-mile fishing limit around the coast of the United Kingdom until a proper investigation has been completed, to the satisfaction of the inshore fishermen, of the effects of beam trawling on fish conservation.]
Mr. Prior: This is like old times. My hon. Friend the Minister of State for

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Agriculture, Fisheries and Food recently announced consultations with all sides of the industry, including the minority of fishermen who favour the use of beam trawls. He is, I know, fully aware of the strength of feeling among certain hon. Members and also the inshore fishermen. We had better await the outcome of the consultations before considering the matter further.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  NORTHERN IRELAND CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  4.27 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Francis Pym): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  I understand that it is thought that it might be convenient to the House if we were to organise the debate on the Bill and the next three orders by taking them all in one debate, which would not in any way restrict the time available.
  The orders are:
  That the Northern Ireland Constitution (Devolution) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 6th December, be approved.
  That the Northern Ireland (Modification of Enactments—No. 1) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 6th December, be approved.
  That the Ministries (Northern Ireland) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 6th December, be approved.
  If that were agreed, my hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee), one of the Ministers of State, could, in the course of the evening, make a second speech on the Bill, and at the end of the debate my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. David Howell), the other Minister of State, or I could conclude the complete debate.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: That would suit us on this side of the House. Not only is it sensible from a time point of view, but it will fit perfectly into the general debate which it is hoped we shall have.
  Mr. Stanley R. McMaster: On a point of order. As you are aware, Mr. Speaker, many hon. Members wish to take part in the general debate. It would be impossible for us to keep our speeches short if we were to deal at the same time with the three statutory instruments, one of which is very long. I should like your assurance, Mr. Speaker, that there will be adequate time to deal with the many detailed points which we shall raise on the statutory instruments once the general debate is over.
  Mr. Speaker: I warn the House that unless the statutory instruments are discussed at the same time, the debate on the Bill will be very narrow and rather unsatisfactory. I think that it would be for the convenience of the House if we were to have a general debate. If the hon. Gentleman scrutinises the Order Paper he will see that provision is made for the point which he has raised. In other words, if the motion is passed, discussion on the Bill can continue to any hour. There will be ample time for discussion.
  Mr. Pym: With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I should like my first words to be words of gratitude to the right hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish). With some hon. Members, the "usual channels" is not the most popular means of communication and I have sometimes wondered what the result would be if it did not exist. But as long as I have been operating the usual channels from my end I have been very fortunate in having at the other end the right hon. Member for Bermondsey. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]
  I never knew, until the right hon. Gentleman came into my room, whether he would be in one of his benign moods, in one of his "gentle request" moods or, at worst, in a state of ferocious outrage, which is something to experience. Having sat in the seats on both sides of the House normally occupied by the Whips, I can claim to be a fair assessor of House of Commons speeches, particularly of those made from the Front Bench. But it is very easy to make a Front Bench speech if one never has to make one, so I have no idea what will happen now.
  It was only the Sunday before last that I was ejected from the "usual channels" and given responsibility in Northern Ireland. In the first week—just my luck—I was stung for an all-night sitting, and on a Saturday. However, that was at the conference, and mainly because of the conference and the inevitable pressures of the first few days in a new office I should be less than frank if I said that I had known which day it was—until today, when the ritual of business questions enabled me to rediscover my bearings.
  The House has already heard from my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister,
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  in his statement on Monday this week, of the important developments in relation to Northern Ireland following the conference last weekend. I want to take this opportunity of adding my own tribute to those, particularly the representatives from Northern Ireland, who took part in that conference. The determination of the three political parties from Northern Ireland to find a means of accommodating their differences gives both hope and encouragement for the future.
  There are those in Northern Ireland who have always been against this or any fundamental constitutional change, or at least thought they were against it. They are entitled to their view naturally, but in my few days there so far I have the clear impression that the vast majority want these new arrangements to work. It seems to me entirely legitimate that those who prefer some alternative arrangement should continue to hold that view, although I am bound to say none of them so far has come forward as far as I know with any constructive alternative that could even remotely be contemplated by the other parties concerned. Even so, it is, of course, possible to argue a case, but I believe there is no justification whatever for anyone trying to excite or incite people to strong-arm or even violent methods in pursuit of their aim. The progress of the past months has been achieved by proper parliamentary, constitutional and electoral processes, and this is the British way of doing things.
  The conference at Sunningdale is obviously of much wider significance than its relevance to this Bill, but its successful outcome was one of the last two political pre-conditions for establishing finally the new constitutional arrangements in Northern Ireland, because the agreement of the Alliance, SDLP and UU Parties in Northern Ireland to form an Executive was dependent on the outcome of the conference, and, therefore, it was of particular importance in this respect. The only remaining pre-condition is a slight change to Section 8 of the Constitution Act, and the purpose of this Bill is to make that change.
  Section 8 of the Constitution Act restricts the number of appointments to be made under that section to 12, not all of which have to be within the Executive. The course of the discussions between my predecessor and the

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  parties thereafter revealed that there was a need for some greater degree of flexibility. There was no suggestion that the size of the Executive should be increased above the present maximum of 12. Indeed, the eventual conclusion was that it would be appropriate if the maximum number of seats on the Executive were reduced to 11. But it was felt that there was need for less rigidity in relation to appointments outside the Executive.
  The agreement which has been reached with the Northern Ireland parties involves an administration totalling 15 in number—of which four members would be outside the Executive. The Government consider that these figures—an Executive of up to 11 and a total of appointments under Section 8 of up to 15—are not only in line with the agreement reached with the political parties in Northern Ireland but provide a sound basis upon which future appointments to the Northern Ireland Executive, and to the Northern Ireland administration generally, should be made.
  This Bill provides for the necessary amendment to the Constitution Act. It is limited in scope, in effect altering subsections (1) and (3) of Section 8 of the Constitution Act. These substitutions are made by Clause 1(1) of the Bill. Clause 1(2) makes certain consequential amendments in Section 7 of the Constitution Act.
  In Section 8 as originally enacted, it was provided that every person appointed to be head of a Department in Northern Ireland was automatically to be a member of the Northern Ireland Executive. The new provisions in Section 8 will, however, be more flexible. It is no longer provided that every head of Department shall automatically be a member of the Executive. It is instead provided, in the new subsection (3)(a), that a head of Department may be appointed to be a member of the Executive. That this new degree of flexibility is a welcome one is shown by the fact that the Northern Ireland parties have agreed that two of the heads of Department should not be members of the Executive.
  It is also necessary to adjust Sections 7(3) and (4) of the Constitution Act. These sections were written in the light of Section 8 as originally enacted and are based on the assumption that every head
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  of Department is a member of the Executive. Since the Bill introduces a new degree of flexibility on this point, it is necessary to carry forward this flexibility into Section 7.
  Mr. McMaster: My right hon. Friend has referred to heads of Departments. In the draft Ministers (Northern Ireland) Order the Departments are referred to as Ministries.
  Mr. Pym: I will come to that.
  The Bill is, therefore, mainly a technical exercise. It does not seek to deal with any of the fundamental principles set out in the Constitution Act—indeed these principles are the very ones upon which the discussions and negotiations of the past few months have proceeded.
  Perhaps at this point it would be appropriate for me to say a word about the orders that we are also debating at the same time.
  The Northern Ireland Constitution (Devolution) Order provides for the date upon which the main provisions of the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973 come into operation. From that date the Northern Ireland Assembly will be able to pass legislation on the matters transferred to it—the devolution order specifies what these matters are to be—and from the same date the Northern Ireland Executive will assume executive responsibility in Northern Ireland for the very wide range of government functions assigned to it.
  Before introducing the order, the Secretary of State is required to be satisfied that the Northern Ireland Assembly has made satisfactory provision by its standing orders for the provisions mentioned in Section 25 of the Constitution Act. As my predecessor told the House on 22nd November, he was satisfied that this minimum provision had been made. I should perhaps say that all that the Secretary of State is required to do under the Act is to be satisfied that the standing orders make suitable provision for consultative committees and other procedure matters referred to in Sections 25(2) to (5). There are, of course, other and more controversial matters in the standing orders, but the Secretary of State has no need for the purposes of Section 2 to take a view on these matters.

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  In addition, the Secretary of State is required to be satisfied that a Northern Ireland Executive can be formed which, having regard to the support it commands in the Assembly and to the electorate upon which that support is based, is likely to be widely accepted throughout the community. The House already knows that it is the Government's view that this requirement is also met. The point was discussed in the House during the debate of 22nd November. During the short time that I have been in Northern Ireland the impression I have received—obviously, it can be no more than an impression—confirms that.
  The devolution order contains two provisions. The first provides that the date of devolution will be 13 days after the date upon which Her Majesty has made the order. Subject to the view of the House, it is intended to make the order on 19th December, and the date of the devolution will, therefore, be 1st January 1974.
  The second provision sets out what are to be transferred matters on which the Assembly may legislate. It puts into the "transferred" category a maximum possible number of matters. Section 2(2) of the Constitution Act says that the devolution order may not declare any of the matters set out in Schedules 2 or 3 of the Act to be transferred matters. As the House will see, the order does in fact declare to be transferred matters all matters except those which are set out in Schedules 2 and 3.
  The provisions of the order are short and simple but, in fact, the order marks the end of direct rule in Northern Ireland, and the coming into force of the new machinery of devolved government in Northern Ireland.
  In the course of a debate last week, hon. Members from both sides of the House asked for further explanation of the financial arrangements between London and Northern Ireland. Naturally, I welcome public debate and discussion on these important matters, for they should be understood not only by parliamentarians but by the public. But I want to be as helpful to the House as possible without burdening it with a long and detailed explanation. The Government, therefore, accept that there is a need for a White Paper—as the hon.
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  Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) suggested—describing the financial arrangements after devolution. Such a paper could, clearly, not be ready for today's debate, but it will be forthcoming. I cannot give a date, but I hope that what I have said will meet the hon. Gentleman's request.
  This, of course, is only one aspect of the machinery of government in Northern Ireland after devolution. The major points about this machinery were discussed during the passage of the Northern Ireland Constitution Bill in the summer. The devolution order does not of itself make any such changes; it is the final step in the process which sets off the provisions in the Northern Ireland Constitution Act passed by Parliament.
  I come now to the Northern Ireland (Modification of Enactments—No. 1) Order. The Constitution Act laid down those functions which after devolution will be excepted or reserved, but it was not possible within the compass of that Act to make the amendments to the law of Northern Ireland and of the United Kingdom required to give effect to this. It is, therefore, now necessary to amend existing United Kingdom and Northern Ireland law to take account of these decisions in the Constitution Act, and this is done by the Northern Ireland (Modification of Enactments—No. 1) Order. In particular, it provides for functions in the field of law and order, including judicial appointments, to be carried out in future by Her Majesty, the Lord Chancellor and the Secretary of State. It also provides for the United Kingdom finance departments to collect the duties and taxes which have become excepted. The order also makes various other changes required by the Constitution Act; for example, in matters to do with the electoral law.
  Finally, I come to the order to which my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) referred. The Ministries (Northern Ireland) Order will create two new Ministries in Northern Ireland—the Ministry of the Environment and the Ministry of Manpower Services—which, like the other Ministries, will become Departments on 1st January. These changes are required to bring the pattern of Northern Ireland Ministries into line with that agreed between the three Northern Ireland parties and

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  announced to this House by my right hon. Friend on 22nd November.
  If the House agrees to the Bill and the orders, the effect will be to bring the whole new structure into operation. It has been a long and difficult struggle to get this far. The creation of a new system in any organisation is usually complicated, but especially so in the constitutional field. It is even more complicated in Northern Ireland because of its history. But it has been achieved, and the laurels go not only to my predecessor and his ministerial team but also to the hon. Member for Leeds, South and his colleagues, including, of course, the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme), in the highly responsible approach they have consistently made to this issue; and last, but very far from least, to those politicians of Northern Ireland who have shown exceptional courage and wisdom in the way they have tackled their task. After all, it is even harder for them than for us. Let us remember the real dangers they face.
  Having got the new system, we now have to make it work. For my part, I shall spare no effort, but it is a job to which every one of us can contribute. Some may try to wreck it. Before anyone embarks on that course, I hope he or she will ponder the possible consequences. The agony of the Province in recent years and the suffering of its people are too awful to permit any attitude now other than a determination to make the new arrangements work. Throughout these difficult years, it has always been said that a solution lay in a two-pronged approach: a vigorous onslaught against the terrorists, coupled with political advance. That political advance will shortly be a reality, and it must be the earnest hope, desire and, indeed, expectation that everyone will now give the new constitution the chance it truly deserves and stand up straight for Northern Ireland.
  4.41 p.m.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: We welcome the Secretary of State to Irish affairs. He is joining a small but select group of hon. Members who discuss Irish matters into the long hours of the night. He is welcome to join that group. We hope, however, that we shall not see a lot of him in the House of Commons
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  because his absence will be a sign that the arrangements worked out over the last months are working properly and that the affairs of Northern Ireland are being discussed where they should be—in the Assembly in Northern Ireland.
  I take this opportunity to echo the right hon. Gentleman's words in that we, too, wish the package the greatest of success. Our main job with the Bill is a technical one. He has explained that it arises from Section 2(1)(b) of the Act. It arises from the discussions on power sharing the conclusion of which was reported to this House three weeks ago. Important historically as the discussions last weekend were, the power-sharing arrangements of three weeks ago will in the short run prove more significant.
  There are a number of points that I should like to raise. The Bill provides, in effect, for a two-tier Executive as opposed to the single tier of former times. There is to be an arrangement of 11 and four members. In the old Stormont the arrangement was for 13 members of the Cabinet and four others, so there is now a smaller number in the new Executive than there was under the old arrangements in Stormont. In spite of his explanation, I should like to put to the Secretary of State a point for clarification. We are now six months on from the passage of the constitution Act and we are here altering the numbers in the Executive. I fear only that there might be insufficient flexibility in the number of 15, and I wonder whether in the longer run, after the next election for the Assembly—maybe in four years' time—changes might have to be made. I hope that is not the case but we must be concerned about flexibility.
  There were 17 members in the old Stormont administration out of a total of 52 Members of the Parliament. That was a high proportion of jobs for MPs. It seemed rather like the Portuguese navy, where everyone is an admiral. The new number of 15 is a relatively small proportion of the larger Assembly, but I hope that we have not been too inflexible. I recall that we were informed in this House that there would be a salary for the members of the Executive. Under the arrangements will voting and non-voting members receive the same amount? May I take it that with all the Bills and orders that have passed through this House in the course of the year the

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  question of salary has now been covered? Under our arrangements there is a different pay scale for Ministers with differing responsibilities.
  In the devolution order the powers are transferred powers. How can one tell which are the transferred powers? It would be most valuable in these early days if a list of them could be published. That would be a more efficient method than hon. Members having to go through all the Bills and orders.
  I referred a moment ago to what might happen in four years' time. Will the Minister tell me what would be the procedure for returning to Westminster the powers now being devolved to the Assembly—which is not something that I would look forward to? Would it simply be a matter of rescinding the order? What is not clear is whether the provision could be used to return all the powers to Westminster in one piece of legislation. As I understand it, this House will have the right to discuss the function of the Council of Ireland but we shall be unable to discuss its structure.
  The Northern Ireland Assembly will have the right under the Act to agree or disagree to the transfer of certain powers to the Council of Ireland. In view of the nature of this order, what will be the position with regard to functions which will remain here at Westminster? If we are to be able to discuss functions which will go to the Council of Ireland, will the transfer of such powers be implemented by an order such as this or will more substantive legislation be necessary when and if the time comes? So much for the devolution order.
  I have one or two questions regarding the Ministries (Northern Ireland) Order. I am confused about the terminology. I should like clarification. In the old Stormont there were Ministries; in the new Assembly there are to be Departments. However, in his speech on 22nd November the former Secretary of State referred to both Departments and to Offices in the new Administration. The order creates a new Ministry of Manpower Services, for example. Section 7(5) of the Northern Ireland Constitution Act specifies that when Part II of
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  the Act comes into effect the Ministry of Manpower Services will become the Department of Manpower Services.
  In his statement on the talks about the formation of an Executive the former Secretary of State referred to the Office of Manpower Services, which is the title of a hived-off section of the Department to which the right hon. Gentleman has now gone. It is important to establish the precise title of each of the 15 posts in the new Northern Ireland administration and to have an explanation of the legislative force of the term "Office". My confusion has something to do with the fact that one understands that after the activation of Part II of the Constitution Act, which will rename the Ministries as Departments, there is to be other separate delegated legislation to bring about further renaming of existing Northern Ireland Departments. Can we expect further legislation to deal with the other Departments not referred to in this order?
  The third, and bigger, order that the Secretary of State referred to is highly technical. I am grateful to the Secretary of State for clearing up a number of points. Except for one or two matters there is no need for me to refer to it in detail. But I should like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the order makes two changes. It gives the Northern Ireland Chief Executive powers which he may need at an early stage, but which he would not otherwise have. These changes are to the Documentary Evidence Act 1868 and the Ministries Act (Northern Ireland) 1944. I hope that at the end of the day we may have explained the precise powers to be given to the Chief Executive.
  As to changes under the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1957, which will enable members of the Northern Ireland Executive to sit in the House of Commons at Westminster and to be Members of the Assembly, I noted that the Secretary of State referred to "electoral matters". That might have been an umbrella heading which covered this as well. As I understand it, if we did not pass the order before the new year it would not be possible for my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) to be a Member of the Assembly and a Member of this House.

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  That would be sad and bad because of the important part that my hon. Friend has played over the last two years. I can recall how he was received when he first came to this House—never unpleasantly in a personal sense, but there was an underground feeling that my hon. Friend represented very much what he did not represent. When one considers the view now taken of the important part he has played, it shows the great value of having leading figures of the Assembly in this House in the recent past because it has aided our understanding of the situation in Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend knows that he has our praise for his work in that direction. One should add that one might not feel the same way about other Members being enabled to be in two places at once.
  Mr. James Molyneaux: One would not dispute the hon. Member's point about his hon. Friend, but would he agree that it would have been beneficial if all leaders of political parties in Northern Ireland had attended the Sunningdale conference as fully participating members?
  Mr. Rees: Frankly, I do not. In one respect it depends why one wanted to be there. As I explained at Question Time, Her Majesty's loyal Opposition were not represented there—correctly so, because it is not the Opposition's job, however friendly we might be on this, to do the Government's job. People in opposition have to make up their minds; they have to play the rôle of being in opposition, and in order to be in the Government one has to win an election. Until those people in opposition in Northern Ireland have a majority of the votes they are in opposition as we are on this side of the House, however temporarily.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Did the Unionist Party, the SDLP or the Alliance Party get a majority in the country?
  Mr. Rees: They have a majority in the Assembly in Northern Ireland, and the votes and numbers in the Assembly are the important thing that matters. If the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) will look, as I am sure he has done, at the appropriate part of Section (2)(b) of the Act he will notice that it refers to a majority of representation
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  in the Assembly. That is what they have. This is one of the reasons why the previous Secretary of State was able to report the agreement which finally the present Secretary of State has been able to explain today.
  I thank the Secretary of State for his remarks about finance. We think that it is most important to repeat the White Paper on financial affairs and the distribution of finance in Northern Ireland.
  There are many other things one could say about the orders, although at the beginning, when Mr. Speaker was in the Chair, we said that the three orders all related to the Bill and the power-sharing arrangements set up in Northern Ireland.
  I hope that it will be possible to have a wide-ranging debate, if only on the hook of the Act we are amending, certainly with regard to the powers to be under the control of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and that, as a result of the arrangements made this weekend, and to be formalised next year, there will be co-operation between North and South on the matters which will be under the control of the Northern Ireland Assembly.
  I wish to mention the Council of Ireland, the Irish dimension. It was appropriate that the discussions should have been held last weekend at Sunning-dale but it is also important that we should have a chance to think more broadly of the Irish dimension. It was first mentioned in the Green Paper—what a break-through that was—and in the White Paper, and it is implicit in the Act. The new agreement last weekend was needed, if this is not the wrong phrase to use, to trigger off the devolution order.
  On Sunday night I happened to be in a position to watch practically everybody who ever was anybody in the North commenting on Sunningdale. I was sitting in a BBC studio, it was all piped through and I could hear the comments before they went on the air. It would have made compulsive television viewing if the whole world could have seen it. The participants were not aware that this was happening.
  I noticed the instant reaction by some people in the North and some in the South. The phrase used was "It is a sell-out"; used by the extreme loyalists in the North. The astonishing thing is

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  that for utterly different reasons it was stigmatised as a sell-out by extreme Republicans in the South. It can be regarded as a sell-out by one or the other but not at the same time by two sets of people who disagree.
  When I was in the South this week and met politicians of all parties, it struck me that one great advantage of the Sunning-dale talks was that they swept away some of the misunderstandings of the last 50 years. It was a great advantage for the politicians in the North and those in the South and representatives of the British Government to meet and talk. I should have thought that the bonus of that meeting was not just in the agreement that was reached. This was put to me by some politicians in the South.
  The aspiration for unity is there and is understandable. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Antrim, North has, I presume temporarily, left the Chamber. I hope that we shall hear from him later on. It was absolutely right, as expressed in the White Paper, that those with aspirations for unity should be able to express them in all parts of the island of Ireland. Equally understandably, there is a need for those in the North who feel passionately about their link with the United Kingdom to be reassured on that. Those two points are not mutually exclusive, as was the case in the example I gave just now.
  I am surprised that it has not been mentioned very much on this side of the water that paragraph 5 of the communiqué was divided into two parts alongside each other, not one beneath the other. It was explained to me, and reported as a result of the debates in the Dail yesterday, that it was meaningful that the Irish Government's acceptance of no change in status and the declaration on the United Kingdom link should be alongside one another.
  There is one point on that which did not strike me when I first read the agreement at short notice. The last words of the right-hand paragraph are:
  "If … the majority of the people of Northern Ireland should"
  ever
  "indicate a wish to become part of a united Ireland, the British Government would support that wish."
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  This was regarded in the South as a significant change in the nomenclature which has applied over the years.
  In any conference there has to be a great deal of give or there would be no point in it. I commend Irish politicians of all parties for the way in which they proceeded last week. The important thing is the acceptance of the status of Northern Ireland.
  We do not need too detailed questions about the workings of the Council of Ireland, but I hope that, although its structure will need legislation in this House, we shall have a chance in the new year to look at the matter in greater depth. It is important that these issues should be raised, because much of the problem in Ireland is the murkiness which surrounds argument about the North and the South. The clearer we are on what is involved, the better it will be.
  For example, we have to be clear about the unanimity rule and how it will work. When there is talk of appointing a Secretary-General, I wonder whether any part will be played in that by the British Government, or whether it will be left entirely—
  Mr. Pym Mr. Pym indicated dissent.
  Mr. Rees: I notice the Secretary of State shaking his head. In that case, perhaps I could put it in the form of advice. I hope that the Secretary-General will not be thought of as having purely an administrative rôle, but that the job will go to someone with wide understanding of the problems of Ireland as a whole. When one considers the rôle of the Secretary of State over the last 18 months, one sees that the Secretary-General's will be an important job and that it will be important to appoint someone with wide knowledge of the situation.
  In paragraph 8 the communiqué refers to studies to be carried out. I have had to be a learner on Ireland over the last two years, and those who come from the North will know how deep is the lack of knowledge on which most of us on this side of the water have to depend about Northern Ireland. A great deal of information is important. Perhaps some of these papers will, properly have to be controlled by Governments, perhaps with the status of Cabinet

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  papers, but the more of these studies that are published, so that we can read and talk about them, the better it will be and the better-informed we shall be.
  I paid a tribute to those in the North by derogating our knowledge on this side of the water. Can I put it the other way around: it might aid their discussions if these documents were published, so that half-truths are not fostered about them, leading everyone to run to their various camps crying that proper discussion is not taking place.
  The Secretary of State mentioned functions, and I want to deal now with security, policing and detention. The House should be clear about what was meant by paragraph 14 of the communiqué:
  "… as soon as the security problems were resolved and new institutions were seen to be working effectively, they "—
  the British Government—
  "would wish to discuss the devolution of responsibility for normal policing"
  to Northern Ireland.
  I give way to no one in my desire to hand over to those in Northern Ireland as quickly as possible as much as possible of the running of their own country. But we went through a traumatic experience during the years of the last Government and this Government before we got security into the hands of Westminster. There were many reasons for this. I wonder what is involved in one respect only in paragraph 15. Does it relate only to the police? As long as there are substantial numbers of British troops in Northern Ireland, it is vital that their control should be vested in Westminster and nowhere else.
  When I was in the Republic—in case there is any fear of a deep-laid plot, I should say that I was there under an arrangement made many months ago to take part in a university debate—I found that there was more talk about the communiqué among the general public there than there is on this side of the water.
  With regard to the common law area which is being discussed and, in the context of the communiqué, some sort of court having responsibility for some agreements between the North and South, and for extradition, which exercises people's minds in the North and the South, there is some talk of resuscitating an Act of
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  Parliament which has fallen into desuetude or perhaps obsolescence. The chat in the Republic is that it was an Act of 1861. When I made some tentative inquiries about the Act, I found in the small print a provision that transgressors could be transported to Van Diemen's Land. I hope that this Act is relevant to today's circumstances. Whatever else still exists in the world, Van Diemen's Land is no longer a penal colony for people from this country. I understand that that area has now become Tasmania.
  Dr. Alan Glyn: I do not think the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) need have any fears. The Act of 1861 was passed by this Parliament and has been invoked as the most convenient method of bringing to trial people in the North and in the South. It is already part of the statute law in the South.
  Mr. Rees: This is the reason why I am searching for an explanation on this matter, for I believe that the House deserves an explanation.
  May we have a little more explanation about the police authority. I see that the South is to have a police authority. The hon. Member for Antrim, North knows that not everything in the White Paper had the force of law. The White Paper said that the police authority in Northern Ireland was to include representatives from the Assembly and that there was to be representation from local government and local organisations similar to the provincial police authorities. Was the communiqué referring to this matter, and can we be told a little more about the status of the police authority in Northern Ireland?
  Mr. Pym: On that point we have given a commitment to reconstitute the police authority. When reconstituted it will continue in the same form as now. That is the commitment we have given.
  Mr. Rees: The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has been in that office only 10 days and it strikes me that that was a perfect Irish answer! I note what the communiqué says about selective release. It would be foolish to question the Secretary of State further on that subject. However, I wish to express the hope that the political situation will

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  develop in such a way that detention without trial can be swept off the statute book. We appreciate the problems in Northern Ireland involving people having to defend themselves from shootings, and, fortunately, this is a problem which we do not face in this country. Therefore, I hope that my hope will be realised and that selective releases will play their part.
  We have come a long way in the last two years. The political map of Ireland has changed. It is important that we in this House, happy as we are about the general situation as a result of meetings and conferences, should not ignore the problem of law and order, for if the breakdown of law and order continues it can vitiate the political developments that have followed. The people of Northern Ireland in the last 50 years have had experience of running Stormont, but they have had no experience of running an Opposition. There was not an Opposition in the true sense of the word in Northern Ireland. If traditions matter—and they do matter, as I have learned from my relatively short time in the House—then the rôle of an Opposition is not at all like textbooks suggest. It is a far deeper matter and is more "in the bones" than can be revealed in the barren pages of a book. There is not this tradition in Northern Ireland as to the rôle of an Opposition.
  I should like to say this to the hon. Member for Antrim, North. We believe that a place must be found in the running of Northern Ireland for those people, mainly in the Protestant working classes, who feel sold and bewildered about the party to which they have belonged for so long. It has been a party more in the sense of a laager in South Africa, in the sense of battening things down and protecting oneself from the enemy. It is important that the Protestants should be enabled to play their part in the government of Northern Ireland, and anything we have been able to do to assist in this respect in the last two years we have done, and we shall continue to do so. My hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) and I on various visits to the Republic—and I myself was there earlier in the week—expressed this view to all concerned.
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  The situation at present does not augur well for the future. Oppositions which behave in the way the Opposition seemingly are behaving in the Assembly at present do no good to the cause of the democracy in general; they do no good to the cause they espouse. We hope that those who feel strongly on these matters will be able to be brought into the government of Northern Ireland in the sense of being an Opposition. I repeat that we have come a long way, but we have not reached the end of the road. In trying to get to that point we support the Bill, and at a later stage we shall indicate our support for the orders.
  5.18 p.m.
  Captain L. P. S. Orr: It is becoming increasingly wearisome, as the long story of Northern Ireland goes on, to find oneself in the position of being a small minority in this House and always a Cassandra. This is not a rôle that I like or undertake with any relish. However, this is what I stand for and it is what I happen to believe.
  I shall say a few words about the Bill itself since, after all, we are technically debating its Second Reading. One of the surprising things to most people in Ulster since direct rule has been the discovery that it is possible administratively to carry on the government of Northern Ireland with a Secretary of State and three Ministers. Most people were surprised, because this was a reflection of a certain degree of inefficiency in the running of the old Stormont system. It is a great tribute to the Ministers concerned that they were able to carry out that task from an administrative point of view, and I willingly pay them that tribute. Whatever differences we have had about policy, there is no doubt that the three Ministers under the Secretary of State have carried out their duties with great skill, hard work and devotion.
  I therefore find it surprising that we should now be increasing the number of the Executive to no fewer than 15 members. The hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) said that this would be less than the number in the old Stormont, but the experience of the period of direct rule has shown that the administration could well be carried on under fewer Ministers. Thus, under this

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  arrangement the taxpayer will have to support a much larger administrative edifice.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Does not my hon. and gallant Friend agree that when Stor-mont was in session there was no Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and there were no other Ministers responsible for the functions not now transferred, so that now there will be not only 15 Members but a whole set-up from this House?
  Captain Orr: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's reinforcement.
  The simple fact is that we are creating a very large Executive which in this Bill we are making even larger than it was made in the Constitution Act, and we are doing so to forward a deal made between the SDLP and Mr. Faulkner's Unionists. Let there be no misunderstanding what we are doing. It is not to provide good, efficient government that we are dealing with this Bill.
  I come then to what is the main subject of today's debate. We have now reached another melancholy stage in the story. We are about to deal with the devolution order which brings into being Part II of the Constitution Act.
  One of the remarkable outcomes of Sunningdale has not been clearly understood by anyone. Mr. Faulkner went to Sunningdale, together with others. They were not an Executive. They were no more than an Executive-designate. The hon. Member for Leeds, South seemed to suggest that those who were left out were left out because they were parties in opposition. But there were no parties in government at the time. There was an Executive-designate, and those were the people who went to Sunningdale.
  The fundamental error of judgment which was made by Mr. Faulkner was to go to Sunningdale before an Executive had been formed. As it was, Mr. Faulkner found that he had to agree to whatever might be put forward and agreed at Sunningdale, otherwise his Executive could not come into being.
  The reality of what happened at Sunningdale is that we in this House of Commons could not have proceeded to implement Part II of the Constitution Act unless there had been agreement with a foreign Power. That is the reality of
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  what we are doing. Thus it was that a foreign Power which is not part of the United Kingdom had a determining say in what would be the constitution of a part of the United Kingdom. That is why the hon. Member for Leeds, South is correct when he says that the political map of Ireland is being altered. Whether we approve of it or not, let us be clear what we are doing.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: The hon. and gallant Gentleman can look at it in the context of a foreign Power. But it happens to be a foreign independent country. The hon. and gallant Gentleman comes from a Province where a sizable proportion of the population look across the border. It is that weakness in the Province which has given rise to the problems experienced in the past 50 years. He has only to look across the House to below the Gangway on this side to see hon. Members who originate in that quarter.
  Captain Orr: I do not dispute that for a moment. I am simply stating the reality of the position. Northern Ireland has been part of the United Kingdom for as long as the United Kingdom has existed. It has always been part of the Unionist position that the internal affairs of Northern Ireland were matters for the United Kingdom—not necessarily for the people of Northern Ireland, but for the people of the United Kingdom as a whole. The reality of Sunningdale, however, is that we could not have enacted a constitution in this House and we could not have had this devolution order before us tonight without the consent of a foreign State.
  Mr. Stanley Orme: But does not the hon. and gallant Gentleman agree that in the 1922 Agreement there were provisions for setting up such a council, although it never reached fruition? Did not the party which the hon. and gallant Gentleman used to support so staunchly prior to the election unanimously agree in its manifesto that such provisions should be brought forward? I can remember the hon. and gallant Gentleman pointing that out to me prior to the election.
  Captain Orr: The hon. Gentleman misses the point completely. In the 1920 Act we were dealing with the United Kingdom. We were embarking upon

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  two sets of devolution, one to the North and one to the South. This Parliament was sovereign. It enacted. It did not have to go to any foreign State. The Council of Ireland did not come into being because the devolution provisions for the South of Ireland never came to fruition. The Irish Free State was set up and, ultimately, the Irish Republic. Today the situation is different. By their own choice the people of the South of Ireland have become an independent sovereign State. But this House cannot legislate for a constitution for part of the United Kingdom without the consent of that foreign Power. That is the situation.
  I turn my attention to what was done in Sunningdale and what had to be agreed. In fact, very little was actually agreed. A great many studies have to be made.
  Much has been made of what is called the recognition by the Government of the Republic that the constitution of Northern Ireland shall not be altered without the consent of the people of Northern Ireland and that they will register it. There is nothing new in that. The Treaty of 1926, ratified by all three Parliaments, was deposited with the League of Nations as an instrument. There is nothing new. There is no undertaking in the Sunningdale agreement by the Irish Republic and Government that they will recommend a change in their constitution. They have said that, without a referendum, their constitution prevents them removing the obnoxious clauses. But they have not said that they will recommend such a change or promise that such a referendum will take place. There is nothing about recognition.
  Then I look at the position of the police with regard to terrorism. There is nothing whatever about extradition. I agree that very difficult and important legal questions are involved. But there is no undertaking by the Republican Government that they will work towards an extradition treaty or find some method of extradition so that people who commit violent crimes, who murder, destroy, maim and wound and who go for refuge to the Republic will be returned to justice. There is nothing like that in the Sunningdale agreement.
  A great edifice has been built with a council of 14 Ministers. It is an embryo Parliament of 60 members who will be
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  paid allowances. There is a secretariat with a Secretary-General. The hon. Member for Leeds, South put his finger on what is involved. He said that he hoped that this man would be not simply an administrative Secretary-General, but someone of considerable stature. He was no doubt thinking of the Secretary-General of the United Nations and a position on those lines. In other words, he sees this council developing into something quite sizeable and important.
  But it has become plain to people who were Unionists in Northern Ireland—
  Mr. Orme: And still are.
  Captain Orr:—and still are—that this House of Commons is tired of the Union and is determined to diminish it. Nothing could underline that more than the fact that in these constitutional arrangements the one thing that would make the Union safe and secure, or at least be an earnest of belief in the Union, is missing—namely, representation in this House. We have repeatedly asked that Northern Ireland should continue to be represented in this House because of the diminution in the devolution of powers, because in the orders all taxation and control over external defence and internal security are to remain in this House. That is emphasised by the fact that the Ministry of Home Affairs is to be abolished. Anyone who suggests that internal security in Northern Ireland will at some time be handed back to the new Assembly is talking through his hat, because the very Ministry concerned is being abolished.
  Throughout, this House has steadily resisted the proposition that Northern Ireland shall be fairly represented in it. Despite the fact that the Secretary of State remains and that all the principal powers lie here, this House resists fair representation of Northern Ireland within it.
  To what is the House now giving its approval? It is giving its approval to the erection of an edifice designed ultimately to bring about a united Ireland. It seems to me, and will seem to most Unionists, that this is what the House is feeling its way towards. There is no doubt that this is what it would like. The House is, in effect, saying "We are not going to bully or bomb you Ulster-men into an Irish Republic; we are not going to make the change without your

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  consent. But we are going to make it more difficult for you to operate within the Union. We are going to build such an edifice around you that it will become more difficult for you to resist a united Ireland. We have insisted upon Republicans within your very organ of government and said that we would not devolve any powers unless you admitted Republicans into that very organ of government. We have further said that we would not even devolve powers without the consent of the State which we want you to join."
  What is left to those who take the Unionist position? In time all the pressures will be there to create a united Ireland. In the words of a man greater than any in this House now, it is a sentence of death with a stay of execution. That is how Unionists see it. That is how I see it. This may be the last time that I put forward the traditional Unionist view in this House. I do so with passion and with feeling because I believe it is the beginning of the end of the Union and the beginning of a united Ireland.
  Mrs. Bernadette McAliskey: I am listening to and following the hon. and gallant Gentleman's argument very carefully. Does he accept from people who share my politics that, while we accept that people who follow his persuasion are not being pushed through the open door, the door behind them is rapidly and firmly being closed? The British Government are not only doing that and denying the loyalist population the political tie of being British, but, through the Council of Ireland and the new Executive, they are firmly establishing such a position that, while politically we shall no longer be British subjects, neither shall we have the economic independence necessary to call ourselves an independent republic.
  Captain Orr: The hon. Lady may be right. But if she believes in an all-Ireland republic she ought to welcome what has happened. On the other hand, with her brand of politics, one understands it is not bringing about the united Ireland that she would like to see.
  I had really come to the end of what I wanted to say. I and my very few hon. Friends will oppose these measures. We are completely opposed to them because they are another step along the road
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  that this House appears to be willing and that the Unionists of Ulster deeply deplore, resent and resist.
  5.37 p.m.
  Mr. A. E, P. Duffy: The hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) stressed two particular points. One related to the abstraction of sovereignty, which I should like to take up later in my presentation. The other was a return to the point that he made in the House on Monday evening when, in commenting on the Prime Minister's statement, he alleged that it amounted to a deception of the people of Northern Ireland.
  Captain Orr: Or the Republic.
  Mr. Duffy: Or the Republic, yes. I thought that the view of most hon. Members then present was that the Prime Minister dealt most convincingly with that allegation. I shall want to explore the theme of a united Ireland later in my remarks.
  I want now to take up the central feature of last week's Sunningdale conference. I see the Sunningdale conference as a vital condition for today's amending measure. Therefore, I hope that the House will forgive me if I confine my remarks to this one matter.
  I should like to enlarge on the praise that I offered the Prime Minister last Monday. Indeed, I should like to lavish much praise upon members of the Treasury Bench because I know how hard they have laboured for the outcome of the Sunningdale conference. I realise that I must be very careful—I hope that all hon. Members will be careful—to say nothing that might make more difficult the acceptance of the present proposals in any quarter in Northern Ireland.
  On Monday I described the Sunningdale conference as historic and tremendous. The establishment of a Council of Ireland and setting the seal on the power-sharing arrangements with the North are undoubtedly potentially historic steps. Whether they will realise their potential, only time will reveal.
  I have no doubt that those present at the Sunningdale conference were right to reach agreement, even at the price of leaving some questions unresolved. The most desirable possible outcome was a

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  modest measure of harmonious agreement. It is a measure of the new spirit of compromise in Belfast that any kind of agreement was possible. It is an indication of the new outlook in Ireland, North and South, that agreement was, most notably, expressed on a Council of Ireland, and that it brought together two of its main architects, my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) and Mr. Faulkner.
  Moreover, the British Government declare that should the people of Northern Ireland indicate a wish to become part of a united Ireland they would support that wish. As my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) has already observed, that represents a significant departure from previous declarations, which were to the effect that no British Government would stand in the way of such a development. Many people, North and South as well as here in Britain, would have preferred the British Government now to state that a united Ireland is in everyone's best interests. I can understand why the Westminster Government did not do so. But the more thoughtful Unionists must now know that this is the inarticulate premise from which all British Government policy-making on Ireland now proceeds.
  To that extent, the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South is right. But it is the conditions that will attend that development that are more important than this acknowledgment and this agreement. The hon. and gallant Gentleman knows that. That is my complaint about his speech. The conditions have been spelled out repeatedly, and he must be aware of them. He should know that he may be doing not only the House and the Government that he supports but even his own constituents a disservice unless he spells out these conditions as well as making the other kind of allegations which he has made this afternoon and last Monday.
  Captain Orr: Is the hon. Gentleman really suggesting that it is perfectly all right to tell people that their citizenship and nationality will be changed and to deprive them of their citizenship provided that the conditions are right?
  Mr. Duffy: Anyone familiar with the history of Northern Ireland knows that perhaps the greatest burden, certainly over the last 200 years, has been that its people have been fed all too amply on that kind of word diet, that kind of alarmist language and that kind of extremist viewpoint. On the other hand, there has been a want of balanced presentations. That is what I am appealing to the hon. and gallant Gentleman to give now. He knows that I do not believe that I am wasting my time. In all sincerity I appeal to him and to the more thoughtful Unionists. I am directing my argument to the hon. and gallant Gentleman and to one or two of his colleagues. Most of them know that this is also the majority view in this country. After noting Monday's proceedings in the House, and in view of the support received by the Prime Minister from all sides of the House as well as the reminder from my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), even the less thoughtful Unionists can be in no doubt that the House of Commons will no longer tolerate any frustration of its will on Irish matters.
  Such an Irish Council would in essence be bilateral, but it is plain that the British Government would have to be associated with it because of Whitehall's continuing responsibility for security and finance in the North. Also, with a view to improving policing throughout the island, the two Governments concerned will co-operate under the auspices of the Council of Ireland through their respective police authorities. No doubt time will show that satisfactory policing as well as the effective development of the economy of North and South and its management will be obtainable only through the new Council of Ireland, for both security and economy are indivisible.
  Thus, the Sunningdale conference has created an all-Ireland institution. It will have modest beginnings. Its functioning is hedged in with all manner of safeguards for Unionists and for their position within the United Kingdom. The important thing is that it is an institution in which Irish men and women will, in a few weeks' time, be working together on matters of common interest. The

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  Prime Minister was cautious when interviewed on television last Sunday evening about the council's future rôle. He confined himself to three matters—electricity generation, tourism and animal welfare. But those of us who have studied the communiqué have seen that the council will investigate through studies the best utilisation of scarce skills, expertise and resources. Secondly, in the best interests of the economy and of efficiency, it will try to avoid unnecessary duplication of effort. Thirdly, it will ensure complementary and not competitive effort where that is to the advantage of agriculture, commerce and industry. The council will go on to do many other things. It is unnecessary to list all of them. It will deal with conservation, development of natural resources and the environment. With that kind of remit, provided that the implementation is right and there is at least a minimum degree of good will, it must grow.
  I raised this matter with the Prime Minister on Monday evening. I asked him whether he would assure the House that, other things being right, the Council of Ireland would have the capacity to grow and to evolve consistent with the freely-granted consent of the people, North and South.
  Captain Orr: In matters of trade and subjects of common interest there has never been any division of opinion between us. It is in our interests to have discussions between Governments, North and South, from time to time. But there is no need for this vast bureaucratic edifice to be built in order to do that. This was taking place long ago. This edifice has been built for another purpose, for a political purpose—to bring about a united Ireland.
  Mr. Duffy: The hon. and gallant Gentleman seems to have overlooked the fact that what he does not think is likely to happen now in Ireland, or what is not necessary, has now happened in relation to this country and the other members of the European Communities simply because of our membership of the Communities. The position now is quite different, not merely with regard to Northern Ireland but in our relationship with other nations. There is also the impending exploration of the Celtic Sea
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  and the Continental Shelf around Ireland. I hope that there will be discoveries, North and South. I am sure that there will be discoveries in the South and that this will interest people in the North. I hope that it will ultimately beckon them. It is these positively helpful conditions that I recognise as making for a hopeful development. Therefore, I do not regard the council, as does the hon. and gallant Gentleman, as a sentence of death for any of the people of Northern Ireland.
  The people will judge the council by results. That is more important than any of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's abstractions about sovereignty. It will have ample opportunities to prove itself by these results within the context of the EEC. As it evolves, this Parliament will be very glad increasingly to delegate the practical exercise of its sovereignty to an all-Ireland institution. The Council of Ireland's foundations have been well laid. It is now up to the ordinary people, of Ireland, North and South.
  I am sorry that the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) is not in the Chamber at present. I wanted to address myself, in conclusion, to him. I wanted to remind him that it now remains for the people of Ireland, North and South, for the people who work—not the people who rant and divide neighbour from neighbour, but the ordinary people who are in the enormous majority in Northern Ireland as well as in the South—to explore the possibilities of this new instrument, to lend themselves to its development and thus to endow it with their moral authority. It will then acquire a strength that will be proof against all the works of the wreckers, the destroyers, the Paisleyites and the Craigites.
  5.50 p.m.
  Mr. Stratton Mills: There is one matter which I should like to mention at the beginning of my speech, on which I think I shall carry all my friends from the Northern Ireland constituencies, and that is in the context of the statement by the Prime Minister today and of the mini-Budget which is expected from the Chancellor on Monday.
  It seems to me that the Executive will be judged, at least partly, by the results that it is able to produce in the social and economic fields, by the provision of more jobs and houses, and by dealing

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  effectively with social problems. Therefore, if it is to start in a climate of cutback industrially and cut-back in public expenditure, I hope that the Secretary of State will fight very hard indeed in his corner in the Cabinet to ensure that Northern Ireland gets special treatment. If the Executive has to operate against the background of a very considerable cut-back in public programmes and a very considerable cut-back in the industrial climate, it will have an even more difficult job to establish itself.
  I want to look briefly at the Sunning-dale package, and it is essential to look at it together' with the Stormont package. We must not deceive ourselves—those packages hang together and must be looked at together. I am not scared of the Irish dimension, provided that I am not being pushed or chivvied in a certain direction. Therefore, I will judge the Sunningdale talks by three essential criteria. First, will the agreement enable Ulstermen to choose whether or not they will stay in the United Kingdom, without being pressurised in any direction? Secondly, what will be its effect upon the security situation on the ground in Northern Ireland? Will it produce results, particularly in the border areas, and will it deal with the terrorist? Thirdly, will it promote a new relationship, a partnership of common interest, between North and South without political strings?
  The answer is not a simple one. On balance, my view is that the answer is in the affirmative, but there are a number of points which must be looked at very carefully. So I believe that the Sunningdale agreement is something which should be supported and welcomed as part of the general settlement, but there are many points which are still not yet determined. The agreement leaves open the hopes of those who wish to see a united Ireland, and gives safeguards to those of us who believe in the Union. I have referred to a number of very important issues which are left open for further examination and further action. But I think that, in practice, the agreement will operate in this way. The Council of Ireland will develop only at the pace at which results are produced in the security area, and those will both nudge forward in parallel and will not outstrip one another.
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  Those who wish to see a strong Council of Ireland will not see it unless there are substantial and effective results in dealing with terrorism. Only if results are achieved will one see the political will to breathe life into the institutions which are to be set up. Mr. Cosgrave gave a very good description of the agreement, when he said that it is
  "a working understanding at the centre, representing the united strength of the sensible elements in the whole of Ireland drawn from both communities and both traditions of allegiance."
  But this is a very tender plant which will need a lot of nurturing and attention from both sides. While I do not agree with much of the reasoning of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr), in one of his most eloquent speeches he made a point with which I certainly identify—"identify" is a popular word in the communiqué. I certainly wish that there was greater warmth in the United Kingdom relationship—and I emphasise the word "warmth". A vital part of that warmth was increased representation in this House, but that is a missing element.
  I should like to comment briefly on some of the detailed contents of the Sunningdale package. As regards recognition, I would like to have seen a change in Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution. But I acknowledge what has been done by the Southern Government, and that the declaration is to be lodged internationally, and I accept that that is a major step forward. But I would say to the Dail committee which is considering a new constitution that if it wishes to build a worthwhile relationship with the people in the North of Ireland it must in its new constitution avoid the claims in Articles 2 and 3, which to many of us are obnoxious. We must also look for greater activity against terrorists resulting from the conference. Again, I acknowledge that there has been a very considerable improvement in the climate since the coalition Government, and there was an improvement towards the end of Mr. Lynch's Government. But there is still a devil of a long way to go before we are operating in anything like the way that two civilised countries should be operating against terrorism. One will look for fairly speedy results in dealing with terrorism on a North-South basis.

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  Another area at which I want to look is the whole question of extradition and common law enforcement areas in relation to North and South. Again, one acknowledges that there has been some movement in dealing with murders, and there is to be a commission to study the new arrangements. This is a step forward, but people will want to see quick results. They will ask how long the commission will take to achieve results, and whether there will be a real political will to get at the criminal. I give the signatories of the agreement the benefit of the doubt, and say that I believe that they want the commission to succeed, but we look for speedy action.
  I now come to the form and nature of the Council of Ireland. I believe in the Union, but I do not believe that the council is a one-way ticket to a united Ireland. People will look at whether it does a useful job of work, and whether it is able to deal effectively with common social and economic problems. One of the interesting aspects which has emerged over the last year is the personal relationship between politicians of different traditions which has developed through the Sunningdale and Stormont talks, and people will look at whether it can help to build a new and better climate.
  I have a question about Clause 8 concerning the Council of Ireland. As I understand it, prior to the meeting in January there is to be an examination of the areas of "common interest" as they are called. Presumably this is to be done at a Civil Service level—I assume, by a joint working party. I asked my right hon. Friend about this earlier, and I believe he misunderstood me. As I understand it, this is to be done before the Council of Ireland is set up, rather than as part of the Council of Ireland arrangements.
  I say to people in Northern Ireland that on balance I welcome and support the Sunningdale agreement. I say to those who believe in the Union, as I do, that it is not a sell-out but an important and fundamental basis of a working understanding. The pace of its development will depend on the benefits which it brings for the people. We are coming to the end of a long series of political activities in this House in relation to Ulster. We have seen developing the problem of the political wreckers who
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  are determined to destroy and are unable to build. Whether in the Assembly or elsewhere, they are endeavouring to destroy the new political institutions.
  People in Northern Ireland have suffered a tremendous amount. I believe they are prepared to give the new Excutive their support—perhaps not overwhelmingly—to see what results it can produce in creating a new political climate. The public will have very little patience with politicians who behave like hooligans. A situation could develop in which some 27 or 28 Assembly men who represent the Loyalist coalition, as it is called, are not involved in the political institutions. That would be a tragedy. We must not permit a situation to develop in the new political institutions where they become a permanently embittered group led, frankly, by people whose interest in their own political advancement is, I suspect, somewhat greater than their interest in the welfare of those they are supposed to represent. It is vitally important that members of the Executive take every opportunity to prevent them becoming a permanently embittered group.
  The House will know that I have broadly supported the new political programme and proposals which have been before the House. Will the new arrangements work out? Can they be made to stick? These are questions for the future. I am a little surprised and pleased that things have been able to get so far. I am convinced that there is very great determination between the three parties making up the Executive to breathe life into the new institutions and make them work because they know the penalty for the people of Northern Ireland if everything comes crashing down.
  I do not doubt that the new Executive will have a very tough time over the next six to 12 months. If it can show that the institutions work and bring tangible benefits, and if the people will identify with them, there will be a bonus at the end of that period when people see the benefit of the scheme for reconciliation which has been advanced.
  6.5 p.m.
  Mr. David Austick: It is a privilege to be called upon to speak in the debate, and as a new Member I am conscious of the opportunity it gives me

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  to join the select few referred to by the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) when he mentioned sitting into the small hours of many nights in an attempt to bring peace to Ulster. If I am able to play some small part in that process I shall be satisfied, particularly because when I look back to 1967 I see that, with the exception of a very small point, almost all the proposals my party put forward then as a prerequisite for a solution have come about.
  The Bill must be welcomed not for what it achieves in itself but for the achievement which it represents. In particular, it symbolises the successful efforts of the former Secretary of State and the Northern Ireland Office, for which no praise is too high, the help of the hon. Member for Leeds, South, and the magnanimity and moderation of the main participants in the Executive-designate. The very fact that an amending Bill is before the House is testimony to the political compromise which has been achieved in the past three weeks. It is a compromise of historic importance which envisages for the first time since the Government of Ireland Act more than 50 years ago that more than one party will govern the Province of Ulster.
  The Bill sets out only the machinery for the operation of that compromise. Unlike other Bills, it tells us nothing about that compromise or how it will work in practice or, indeed, whether it will work at all. The whole thing is completely dependent upon the attitudes and behaviour of the participants. Mr. Faulkner and his fellow administrators are still termed collectively the Executive-designate and will remain so until they actually sit down to work. There are a number of difficulties in the functioning of the Executive which I hope the Minister will clarify when he winds up or which will be clarified in the White Paper which was promised and which we welcome.
  How does the Minister envisage the principle of collective responsibility among Executive Members working in practice? For example, if an SDLP Minister introduces a measure which is not approved by Members of the Executive, will he be required to resign? If such a measure is not approved by the Assembly, will the entire Executive be required to resign? If the unanimity rule
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  is to operate among Executive Members for every measure that is introduced, it is surely a recipe for impotence. I can envisage difficulties in the event of the Executive being defeated and calling an election to resolve the doubt. But there should not be too many difficulties in calling an election at the end of an Executive's term of office now that general differences of opinion among potential Executive Members can be brought out and adjudicated on by the electorate through the single transferable vote system of proportional representation.
  There is also a possible difficulty of votes of no confidence in the leaders of political parties represented in the Executive, or defections from within the ranks of their supporters in the Assembly. How does the Minister foresee the resolution of such problems? I refer particularly to the possibility of Mr. Brian Faulkner being unseated as Leader of the Ulster Unionists by the Unionist Council. In general, it appears that the distribution of portfolios has been done in a sensitive and fair manner. However, a Unionist as Minister of Finance might well cause problems when the budget is being distributed among Departments. A sensible compromise might be to ensure that the balance between the political parties in the appointment of junior Ministers is maintained, thus extending the concept of power sharing in the lower tiers of government.
  There are a number of other factors which will determine the success or failure of the new initiative. We must consider the position of the Ulster Loyalists and other members of the Assembly who oppose the Executive. It would be wise to remember that the original power-sharing concept never envisaged that the Executive should have to operate against an Opposition, even an official Opposition. The original idea was that all elements in Northern Ireland politics represented in the Assembly should work together on the Executive, each sharing power and responsibility. Those who now refuse that opportunity and stand outside the Executive were among the most vociferous opponents of the abolition of Stormont, which they saw as removing sovereignty from the elected representatives of the Ulster people.
  The new Assembly and Executive represent an attempt to return some, albeit

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  not all, of the sovereignty to all the people of Ulster. It appears that some people are forsaking the reality of sharing in political power and influence for what seems to be the façade of resentment and demagoguery. They are sacrificing their first opportunity—and it may be their last—of effectively, directly representing their constituents for the sake of beating the old Orange drum of no surrender.
  The events of the last 24 hours have shown the true nature of so-called loyalists as a negative, destructive force which is pledged not only to boycott the Executive but to prevent it from operating and to destroy the Northern Ireland Assembly. All that is being done under the guise of democracy.
  Among other unresolved problems are the future of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the general policing of Ulster, the rent and rate strike, the future of internment and detention without trial and the problem of extradition. Ideally, the slate should be wiped clean before we start a new and revolutionary phase in Ulster history. We all know that that cannot be done. Now is surely the time for significant concessions to be made by both Ulster politicians and the Westminster Government. Both Mr. Faulkner and the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) have conceded much, and they must continue to concede. I hope that the Westminster Government will make their contribution.
  I hope that the committee studying law enforcement in the Province and the Under-Secretary of State's Committee set up to assist the chief constable and the police authority will report urgently on the rôle of the RUC in the community.
  I hope that some formula will be devised whereby those who have participated in the rent strike—I understand that some people owe up to £500—will not be pressurised for full payment forthwith.
  The Liberal Party has been implacably opposed to internment since its re-introduction. It believes that the time may well be right for the abolition of internment for an experimental period.
  Many problems may be helped to solution by the formation of the Council of Ireland, which the Liberal Party welcomes unreservedly and which it has proposed for many years. It is good to see that many Liberal policies are at
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  last finding favour. The idea of a common law enforcement area and the supervision of police forces on both sides of the border by the Council should be pursued as far as possible. The basis of non-partisan links between the two Irish Governments, particularly in joint capital ventures such as the common power transmission scheme, will not only save valuable financial resources but will convince doubters on both sides that there is much to be achieved by economic and social co-operation, regardless of ultimate political aims.
  The Liberal Party hopes fervently that the Executive will be successful and that the realignment of political opinion in Northern Ireland will be achieved. It may well be that the procedures for a referendum on the border will have to be made more flexible. Perhaps the referendum should be held every five years and not every 10 years as is now provided.
  There is still one matter on which Liberals would like to see a fundamental change. We would welcome the fairer representation of the people of Ulster in this House. We believe that those Members should be elected on the basis of the single transferable vote, as are other representatives in Ulster.
  I hope that the Bill will be speedily passed through the House. The Liberal Party welcomes it and will support those who will have the onerous task of implementing it. It seems significant, as was mentioned earlier by the Secretary of State, that if the Bill is passed the Executive-designate will become an Executive on 1st January. It is significant that that should happen at the start of the New Year.
  6.16 p.m.
  Mr. John Biggs-Davison: I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Ripon (Mr. Austick), who addressed the House graciously from the Liberal benches. This is a notable debate in more ways than one; the Liberal Party outnumbers Her Majesty's Government's official Opposition by three to one. The hon. Gentleman made a number of constructive suggestions and asked a number of questions, to which I hope we shall hear answers.
  The hon. Gentleman said that perhaps detention could be ended for an experimental period. I am rather at a loss to

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  follow him. We are talking about matters of life and death and we cannot afford to take chances.
  I do not agree that we need to have a border plebiscite more frequently than the minimum period which has been provided. I should have thought that to have a plebiscite every five years on the position of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom would have a profoundly unsettling effect and would put back all the economic and social progress which the hon. Gentleman mentioned and to which we all attach importance.
  I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State upon what he called his ejection from the usual channel. In so doing, I do not unsay anything which I have said in the past about that act of constitutional infanticide, the throttling by the Mother of Parliaments of a daughter Parliament. One of the results of that act, and part of the price which we have paid, has been the arrival upon the streets in Northern Ireland of so-called Protestant loyalist private armies. Some of their members vie with the IRA in murder, arson, torture and extortion. They studied the form. They saw that two sides could play at violence. They saw that violence achieved results.
  Those of us who most deeply regretted the break-up of the Northern Ireland Parliament should be the first to give a welcome to the new constitution, with all its imperfections and contradictions. This is because it represents perhaps an admission that a wrong turning was taken, and it represents the beginning of a return to regional self-government for Northern Ireland. As my right hon. Friend knows better than anyone, in view of the position he occupied until recently, this Parliament has proved inadequate to the proper scrutiny of Northern Ireland expenditure and has been unequal to anything more than the most cursory examination of far-reaching Northern Ireland legislation which it has been powerless to amend.
  Broadly speaking, the Northern Ireland Executive and the Northern Ireland Assembly will be what their members make of them. Let anyone who seeks not just to oppose, which is a con-
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  stitutional function, but to disrupt, consider his reputation, however lightly he may take the peace of the Province. In some respects, the scope of the new Assembly will be larger than that of the old Parliament. Who would have thought a few weeks or months ago that Her Majesty's Government, in reaching an agreement with various parties to this question, would be able to express their willingness to
  "… discuss the devolution of normal policing with the Northern Ireland Executive and the police."
  The formula concerning the RUC seems weird and wonderful—the formula worked out so painfully at Sunningdale. Yet there is historical precedent for almost everything in Irish affairs. On 30th March 1922, Michael Collins met James Craig in order to try to bring about peace between North and South. In return for the complete cessation of IRA hostilities in the Six Counties, it was agreed between Craig and Collins that Roman Catholics should be recruited to the special constabulary, more especially in nationalist areas, and the Northern Government of the day even agreed to their selection by an advisory committee nominated by the Provisional Government of the Irish Free State and presided over by the Bishop of Connor and Down, Dr. McRory.
  I mention this not because I underrate the misgivings of Unionist colleagues that something terrible is intended by this weird and wonderful formula, but to point out that if their hard-line predecessors were willing to go along with a system of that kind, I think they can go along with this new formula.
  It is indeed terribly important that no one should underrate at this hour the misgivings of loyalists—in the true sense—particularly on the Council of Ireland. I think that, whatever may be thought of his opinions, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) made a very remarkable and sincere speech which we would all do well to ponder. Of course it is true that a Council of Ireland has long been Unionist policy, but the Unionist party was always thinking, I believe, in terms of an intergovernmental body dealing with practical and technical matters of common concern.

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  I confess that I am a little worried by the grandiose style of the proposed Council of Ireland. After all, in this consultative assembly there will be a Republican predominance, and if the Assembly does come into existence that Republican predominance, if it is taken too far, could be ultimately resisted only by a veto, which would always tend to be interpreted outside as negative and reprehensible. Of course, we need the fullest inter-governmental co-operation between the two Irish Governments, and the Sunningdale statement referred to the inter-dependence of
  "… the whole field of law and order".
  The Council of Ireland will be justified to the Unionist majority and to many other people only if it is part of an effort to bring about a concerted system of security against forces in Ireland which are implacably hostile to constitutional Government in Dublin just as much as they are to the Government of Northern Ireland.
  The political settlement which is sought depends upon the crushing of terrorism. The Provisional IRA has been beaten out of Belfast to the border. That is why the border is such a perilous place today. Present in the Chamber are my hon. Friend the Member for Esher (Mr. Mather) and my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Dr. Glyn), who, only two days ago, were with me on the border. We found there that there was a concern lest the political settlement which is desired, the atmosphere of Sunningdale, if one can call it that—I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. I am afraid I must sit down.
  Mr. Speaker: Mr. McMaster,
  Mr. Stanley R. McMaster Mr. Stanley R. McMaster (Belfast, East) rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I fear that the hon. Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) is unwell. I suggest that we suspend the sitting for a short time.
  Sitting suspended.
  Sitting resumed.
  Mr. Biggs-Davison: I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps I may endeavour to continue my speech with your indulgence and that of the House. I felt slightly unwell.
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  The sooner the Chief Constable of the RUC and the Commissioner of the Civic Guard in the South are authorised by their respective Governments to get together and co-ordinate the activities of two forces between which there is a great degree of mutual admiration and respect—the better it will be not only for the peace of the whole of Ireland but for the success of what was done at Sunningdale.
  My hon. Friends and I, paying our visit to the forces on the border, found that the co-operation which undoubtedly exists at the moment between the security forces on our side and the Gardaí in the Republic varies from place to place. It is much better on the border with County Donegal, for example, than it is on the border with County Monaghan. Some of the officers of the Armed Forces to whom we spoke said their local problems would virtually be solved if the present closing of unauthorised roads was complete. This is now going ahead. At Pettigoe, for example, it has been done with the full understanding of the public and the cooperation of the Garda.
  They mentioned a second difficulty, the need to make speedy progress in the matter of extradition, or an efficacious equivalent of extradition. Reference has been made earlier to the declaration made by two sovereign Governments regarding the future of North-South relations. It is a notable fact that the Government of the Republic has concurred in the words of the British Government that the present status of Northern Ireland cannot be altered until a majority of its people desire a change in their status.
  I hope my right hon. Friend understands the concern which some people must feel about the passage that followed that statement, namely that if in future the majority of the people of Northern Ireland should indicate a wish to become part of a united Ireland the British Government should support that wish. I need not go further into the misgivings on that score. I am sure my right hon. Friend understands them.
  As has been pointed out by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr), the tripartite agreement which was solemnly deposited at the League of Nations was

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  soon overtaken by a change of Government in Dublin. I hope that diplomacy will be successful in persuading the Government of the Republic to attempt an amendment of their constitution. I rather regret, in view of the religious views that I hold, the deletion from the Constitution of the Irish Republic of the true statement that Catholicism is the religion of the majority, and the retention of the untruth that Dublin has sovereignty over the whole island of Ireland, its islands and territorial seas. The separation of the Six Counties was as much an act of self-determination as the establishment of an independent Government in the South of Ireland.
  If we are speaking of the unification of Ireland we must realise that it is quite as unrealistic to expect to plant a Tricolour on Stormont Castle as, in present circumstances, it would be to plant a Union Jack on Dublin Castle. In June 1937 Mr. de Valera said that the Northern Ireland problem stood in the way of what he called a "flat, downright proclamation of a republic." It is a pity that some of his successors were not so wise. That second statement from Sunningdale, following the reiterated commitment to maintain the status of Northern Ireland—the statement that the British Governmen might support the wish to become part of a united Ireland—is certainly not reassuring.
  It follows on what was done in the new Constitution which this House has given to Northern Ireland, the abolition of oaths of allegiance, the Governorship and the Privy Council. The Assembly has shown a wise instinct in reviving some of the symbols of loyalty. The former Secretary of State, replying to our pleas not to abolish the Governorship, gave us to understand that there might well be Royal visits not long delayed to Northern Ireland and that Hillsborough might become something like Holyrood.
  My speech and the numbers in the House tonight are not adequate for the importance of this occasion. The people of Northern Ireland are fellow citizens and fellow subjects who have suffered grievously in recent years. We are, of course, entitled to look to Northern Ireland politicians for constructive statesmanship. That has been manifested by many of them, at Darlington, Stormont
  710
  and Sunningdale. But sometimes the impatience, condescension and indifference shown in this House seem to be not only inappropriate but indecent.
  The people of Northern Ireland have no small claim upon the affections of this House. But for the existence of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom and the steadfastness of her people, offering us bases still strategically necessary, we would have lost the Battle of the Atlantic and gone down into slavery and shame.
  Mr. Speaker: When the hon. Member temporarily resumed his seat I called the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster). I must keep to that.
  6.35 p.m.
  Mr. Stanley R. McMaster: It gives me particular pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison). I am sure that the House will understand if he chooses to withdraw from the Chamber rather than listen to my humble contribution.
  I say at once that I welcomed and admired the courage, understanding and sympathy behind my hon. Friend's speech and the great interest he has taken in Northern Ireland and its affairs. I congratulate him on the recent publication of his book on Northern Ireland. I am sure that all who are in the Chamber now and all others who take an interest in our affairs will read that book. I congratulate my hon. Friend upon his speech.
  I welcome the constitutional changes which will come about as a result of this measure. Along with my hon. Friend, I regret that the communiqué following the Sunningdale conference did not state both sides of the proposition. I was sorry to see it contemplating a change but not going further to balance things for the sake of the Unionist majority in Northern Ireland and stating clearly that if that majority did not want change Northern Ireland would remain part of the United Kingdom and would be defended as such. This was not clearly stated in the communiqué and represents a shortcoming in that document.
  I congratulate my right hon. Friend the present Secretary of State for Employment on the considerable efforts which he has put in over the past year and a

  711
  half in reaching this settlement. I wish him well in his new appointment. I feel that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland was rather pushed in at the deep end at Sunningdale. He was given the job at a moment's notice and had to face perhaps one of the most difficult and monumental conferences which has taken place in recent years. I congratulate him and his colleagues who were at Sunningdale on achieving the settlement embodied in the communiqué.
  I feel it presages a new period in the history of the United Kingdom and in the history of good relations between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. I share none of the fears of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr). I am confident that all sides in the community will make their opinions felt in the months to come and that it will be quite clear that those who oppose this constitutional settlement represent a small majority on both sides of the political divide and of the total population in Northern Ireland. People of all religions are now gathered together in the new Assembly with a new power-sharing Executive which can herald a new period of political co-operation in Northern Ireland.
  I have a number of questions to ask my right hon. Friend arising out of the Bill and the orders. It might be convenient if the orders were dealt with separately, because one is very long and to go into the points on them now at length would waste time.
  Is the number of Members of the new Executive, as set out in Clause 1, a wise step? Would it not be better, on grounds of flexibility, to lay down no specific number for the total of those who shall take part in the new Executive? It may in future be necessary to appoint Parliamentary Secretaries as more powers are transferred to Northern Ireland. A promise has already been given regarding the control of the police. Does the Bill provide sufficient flexibility for the appointment of such persons as Parliamentary Secretaries and for changing the functions as set out in the Constitution Act read in conjunction with the amending Bill?
  What will Westminster's functions be in relation to the new Ministers? Under
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  the previous Act the Secertary of State has power to create Ministers and to rearrange the functions of Departments. Will the new head of the Executive have the powers or does my right hoc. Friend intend to continue performing those powers? I hope this will be clarified in the winding-up speech.
  I do not think that my right hon. Friend quite understood a point which I made in an earlier intervention regarding the Ministries. In the Bill, and in the Ministries order, the heads of Departments are referred to as Ministers.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. That is the second time the hon. Gentleman has said that we shall be considering the orders later. We agreed earlier, with the consent of the House, to have a general debate covering both the Bill and the orders.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Does that mean that this debate can go on after 10 o'clock?
  Mr. Speaker: That will depend on whether the 10 o'clock suspension motion is passed. There is a motion that the Business of the House should continue until any hour. If that is passed, it will mean that the debate on this Bill can go on.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Does it mean that the orders still to be debated can be debated simply for the one-and-a-half hours normally given to them?
  Mr. Speaker: I think that the idea was that we should have a general debate and that general points should be raised now. I would not seek to rule out a number of detailed points on the orders. As to how long the debate will last and as to whether motions for the closure will be accepted, we shall cross that river when we come to it. This is a general debate, and if the 10 o'clock suspension motion is passed the debate will not be limited.
  Mr. McMaster: I thank you for your guidance, Mr. Speaker. I make the point because I have additional comments on the orders, particularly on the main order on modifications of enactments, which has 14 articles and several schedules and runs to 27 closely printed pages. It would be inappropriate to go through that in detail at this stage.

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  This is the only opportunity which the House has to consider what will become an Act of Parliament, and there will be no opportunity in Committee, or on Report, further to consider and amend the orders. I hope, therefore, that the House will give adequate time for consideration of the orders.
  One of the orders refers to Ministries. Yet the Bill which we are now considering refers to the heads of Departments. My point is a simple one. Is my right hon. Friend prepared to accept that the heads of Departments are, in fact, Ministers? In the Council of Ireland there will be Ministers from the South of Ireland. Will they be matched by Ministers from the north of Ireland, or by heads of Departments? This may be a small point, but it may be felt in Northern Ireland that it would be an improvement in terminology to refer to heads of Departments in the new Assembly at Stormont as Ministers.
  Another point of detail on which I seek clarification concerns the creation of new Ministries. Will this come under the Act or the amending Bill?
  I turn now to the package. The main problem in Northern Ireland is security. Therefore, I hope that, now that the package has been accepted and the Assembly and Executive are to come into existence and the Council of Ireland is to be set up, my right hon. Friend will come down from the fence. There is a feeling in Northern Ireland that in the past 20 months the Secretary of State has occupied a position as more of an arbitrator between the two sides. It is also felt that the Prime Minister performed this function during the Sunningdale conference.
  Now that the Assembly is being set up and the Executive will be formed, will my right hon. Friend accept that the natural consequence of these changes should be that the British Government should speak and act on behalf of Northern Ireland as though it was part of the United Kingdom? In negotiations with the South of Ireland, will the British Government treat the South of Ireland as a foreign country, which, by its own wish, it became many years ago and even opted out of the Commonwealth after the last war? Will the British Government negotiate on behalf of Northern Ireland,
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  recognising it fully as an integral part of the United Kingdom?
  With regard to law and order, what is the timetable relating to control of the police? I welcome the statement that the control of the police will be returned to Northern Ireland.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Can the hon. Gentleman tell me where in the Sunningdale agreement it is stated that responsibility for control of the police will be returned to Northern Ireland? Does it not say that Her Majesty's Government are prepared to discuss this matter?
  Mr. McMaster: My hon. Friend endorses what I have said. The communiqué following the Sunningdale conference is not clear on the point. Perhaps my hon. Friend will deal with the point.
  Mr. Carol Mather: It was stated in the communiqué that responsibility for control of the police would be returned as soon as the security problems were resolved.
  Mr. McMaster: I emphasised the doubt exists. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Minister of State will deal with that point.
  I should like an assurance that the Royal Ulster Constabulary will not be reorganised. In a recent public statement, a Minister in the South of Ireland referred to an agreement for a radical reorganisation of the constabulary. I have been told in answers to questions in the last few weeks that no radical reorganisation is planned. In view of this statement and the doubts in Northern Ireland, will my hon. Friend deal with the matter and say something about recruitment for the constabulary, the progress which it has made, and the support which Her Majesty's Government intend to give the police while they remain under the control of the Secretary of State?
  Will the provision in the 1861 Act about the trial of murderers be enforced retrospectively? I believe that there are 30 men in the South who are wanted for murder and other serious crimes in the North. What action is to be taken to bring them to justice? Will the action promised by the Southern Irish Government be retrospective? Will it be extended to include serious crimes other than murder?

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  To what extent will the new Executive set up under the Council of Ireland have power to act independently? To what extent will its actions have to be endorsed by the Parliaments in the South and North? What power of veto will the Assembly have over any executive function exercised by the new council of which it disapproves?
  Turning to the guarantee of the status of Northern Ireland to which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South referred, I wish to dissociate myself from his disparaging remarks about the United Nations. We must distinguish between the United Nations and the old League of Nations. It is true that the 1928 agreement was lodged with the League of Nations, but that body was never very effective and was totally different from the United Nations. The valuable agreement incorporated in the communiqué recognising the status of Northern Ireland and lodged with the United Nations will have much greater effect. It will give far more assurance than arose from the settlement which followed the 1920 Act. In the light of enforcement of international law, the agreement is real and meaningful. It should, therefore, give much more reassurance to the people of Northern Ireland than they enjoyed previously.
  Does my right hon. Friend intend to let the position rest there? The second clause of the constitution of the South lays claim to exercising dominion over the whole island of Ireland. That is inconsistent with the assurance about status. Will my right hon. Friend press the Government in the South to amend their Constitution? What discussions have taken place under this head? What assurances have been given? If none has been given, I urge my right hon. Friend to pursue this matter vigorously because it is of great concern to Northern Ireland. If the Government in the South were prepared to amend their Constitution, it would augur well for the new Assembly and for restoring law and order in the North, because it would renew the confidence of many of the majority—the Loyalists or Unionists—in Northern Ireland who are questioning the intentions of Her Majesty's Government in guaranteeing the continued existence and integrity of Ulster.
  716
  I am glad to see present hon. Friends who have recently visited Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell has been there 40 or 50 times in the past three years, which is an incredible record for a Member of this House. My hon. Friends the Members for Windsor (Dr. Glyn) and Esher (Mr. Mather) have been to Northern Ireland in the last few days and have seen the position on the border. They know of the raids which take place across the border. There was a recent raid again on the police station at Beleek. What steps do the Government intend to take to improve security on the border? What improvement in security will result from the Sunningdale conference? What does my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State expect to be the effect of the discussions which he had with members of the former Government of Northern Ireland during the conference? What assurance has he had from them?
  What measure of autonomy will the new Executive have? What will be its powers? Will it have control over the Council of Ireland and the acts of the council? Is it intended by Her Majesty's Government that the Executive's powers will be gradually increased and that when responsibility for security is handed back the Executive will be an autonomous body comparable with the Government which existed before Stormont was suspended in March last year? I envisage as a result of the Sunningdale conference and the recent acts of Her Majesty's Government moves being made to bring about better community relations in Northern Ireland. That is the first and foremost problem facing the Government, and they have grappled with it.
  Secondly, I see arising from the agreement a better economic and social future in Northern Ireland. With the chronic shortage of oil, fuel and basic raw materials, I see no future for Ireland in the direction that certain minority loyalist groups would like to take. UDI spells disaster, massive unemployment in shipyards and aircraft factories and reductions in social services, pensions and family allowances. Many people would be forced to go abroad to find employment. The only sensible future for Northern Ireland lies in the direction laid down in the communiqué and the steps that the Government have taken.

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  Perhaps my hon. Friend will say what progress has been made with industrial development. We welcome the news of a few days ago that two factories are to extend their enterprises. It is relevant to the debate and to the future that development should continue. Will development still be in the hands of Westminster, or how far will it be devolved to Ministers in the new Assembly?
  I wish my right hon. Friend well in his new appointment and every success to the new Executive which is to come into being on 1st January.
  7.1 p.m.
  Mrs. Bernadette McAliskey: I have often been accused, both inside and outside the House, of oversimplifying matters in order to put my point of view, but a gross over-simplification is being perpetrated in the House by the Government and the Opposition. The people of Northern Ireland are being told that they must accept the new Executive, the amendents to the Constitution Act, and the Council of Ireland, not because they are good, profitable or progressive but because of the negative results of not accepting them. Little argument has been put forward of how well the new machinery will work, how long it may last, or where exactly it will lead.
  Anyone who has watched recent television news reports and interviews will have seen Mr. Brian Faulkner in the peculiar position of insisting that the Council of Ireland, while not a step towards a united Ireland, is not a bar on the door. The hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) on several television channels tried to do Mr. Faulkner's job for him by saying that while the Council of Ireland was not barring the door to a united Ireland it was not a step towards a united Ireland. He was frightened of making Mr. Faulkner's job of selling the package more difficult.
  The people of Northern Ireland are being told that they must accept this package—this new deal—otherwise there is the threat—such as we had in the 1920s—of a bloody and terrible war. The people are being led to believe that if the proposals are not accepted the consequence is the dire possibility, and indeed probability, of civil war in Northern
  718
  Ireland. From those who believe in the proposals we have not heard any argument to counter the growing fear that the package itself gives rise to a greater possibility and probability of that civil war. While it is perfectly easy for the spokesman for the Opposition to say in the House that it can be a sell-out to the Loyalists or to the Republicans but it cannot be a sellout to both, that is two-dimensional logic which has no bearing on reality.
  The fears of the Loyalists are not in direct opposition to the fears and demands of the Republicans. To take one example, the important question of extradition. The Loyalists are convinced that people who commit acts of terrorism—as they see it—against the State in Northern Ireland escape to the safe haven of their friends in the Republic. It is, therefore, most important to them to get changes in the extradition laws out of the Council of Ireland negotiations. They did not get that, so they lost. But did we win? Of course we did not win, for the simple reason that nobody—and by that I mean myself the people of the Republic and even the Government of Ireland—wants to see the extradition laws changed.
  The people most affected by the extradition policy, that is to say, both wings of the IRA, are not greatly concerned about extradition. They may be grateful for the existing extradition laws, but can it be said that if the extradition laws were changed, and the 30 men of whom the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) spoke did not have the safe haven of the Republic they would not have committed the acts they did? I dispute that strongly. The death penalty was no deterrent to them. A change in the extradition laws might make escape to the so-called haven of the Curragh Camp more difficult, but it would not prevent those men from believing as they believe and doing what they do.
  Therefore, whilst the Loyalist population lost because they did not get the extradition laws changed, it was no great win for the Republicans. To them it was an inessential irrelevance.
  The same question arises on the acceptance of the Constitution of Northern Ireland. The Loyalists have been given a United Nations enshrinement of a doubt. They have been told that so long

  719
  as they do not change their mind they are all right. All they have to do is to go through life wearing a pair of blinkers and never seeing what is round the corner. If they never change their mind, no one will change it for them. There is no safeguard that in five or ten years' time there will not be a change. All they are told is that from now till eternity the only protection they have against progress is to close their minds to it and keep on saying "No". That is hardly a recipe for persuading anyone to change his mind. No logic or art of persuasion has been used. No social or economic arguments have been advanced to persuade them to change their mind. They are just told to keep their mind closed. The Loyalists are not convinced. They do not want the Government to say, "So long as you do not change your mind you will never be in the Irish Republic."
  What the Loyalists want the Government to say is what the Government cannot say. It is time the Government admitted that they cannot say, "You will never, ever, be part of a united Ireland". That is what the Loyalists want to hear. That will never happen. The British Government cannot say that because they know that it will happen. In the interests of the British economic community and of the industrial future of Britain and Ireland alike, whether or not the Protestants want it, into the Republic of Ireland they are going. May be not tomorrow, may be not next year, but sooner or later, like it or not, that is where they are going. Why not be honest about it? Why keep saying to people, "Keep your minds closed, close your eyes, and it will never happen", when one knows that as soon as they close their eyes it will be done behind their back.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Will the hon. Lady agree that it is also in the interests of the EEC that the Loyalists should be pushed into a united Ireland?
  Mrs. McAliskey: It is certainly not against the interests of the EEC. This is why I intervened during the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr); and why if it were not so tragic it would be funny to remark that I was the Member for Sandy Row. I appreciate the spirit of what was meant by that, but the kind of society into which the provisional IRA
  720
  cannot bomb and terrorise the Protestants but the British Government can economically, socially and politically coerce the Protestants is the kind of society that bodes well neither for them nor for us as ordinary working class people.
  It is not the kind of society whereby the Irish people control their own future and destiny because we control our own economic and social future, but it is the kind of society where we sit like so many fools with a tricolour flying over 32 counties and English pound notes in every bank in the country. It is the kind of society in which the country is socially and economically controlled by Britain and, ultimately, from Brussels, and in which people are fooled into thinking that they are a sovereign and independent nation. Again, the two sides can be betrayed, because it is not as simple as saying, "If you please the hon. and gallant Gentleman you automatically displease me." I do not despite or hate the hon. and gallant Gentleman because he is a Protestant, an Orangeman or a Unionist. I do not despise anybody. I hate the system that has divided his people and mine. I hate the system that has kept all our people in economic and political subjection.
  Loyalists got nothing out of Sunning-dale. They have got an enshrinement of doubt. They have got nothing on extradition. They have a Free Stater of one hue or another coming to sit on the police authority. They see this foreign body floating around the police authority. But is that reform? Am I being told that I ought to be pleased because some Gardaí "basher" comes up and joins the RUC "bashers" of the North? There is no difference, as far as I am concerned, between the way they run the RUC and the way they run the Gardaí. When I talk about reforming the RUC I mean reforming it from the bottom.
  Where are the people who beat Sam Devenney senseless? Where are the people who mounted Browning submachine guns and went into the Catholic areas of Belfast? That is what I mean by reforming the police. I do not care whether it is Flanagan or anyone else at the top. I do not care about personalities or religion or the colour of the uniforms of the RUC. I care about the laws that they have to implement,

  721
  the way they implement them, whether or not they are implemented fairly and whether the RUC as a body can be seen by all sections of the civilian population to be the referee and the custodian for protecting the rights of the individual and society as a whole. That will not be done by a few constitutional changes on the police authority and one or two Assembly men on the local bodies. The Loyalists are annoyed—
  Mr. Orme: I am fascinated with the hon. Lady's new-found rôle of interpreting what the Loyalist community in the North think about this situation. She is trying to pour oil to ignite a fire. Would she not try to interpret what her own constituents want? She was elected to this House, unfortunately, not because she is a Socialist but because she is a Roman Catholic. What do her constituents want?
  Mrs. McAliskey: Fifty per cent. of my constituents are Loyalists—[An HON. MEMBER: "Forty-five per cent."] Correction—45 per cent. I apologise. It was not my intention to mislead the House. But I do not care who elected me. I represent the people of my constituency. I have pointed out, on both issues, how we have got nothing.
  With respect to Her Majesty's loyal Opposition, I consider that I am in a better position to interpret Loyalist opinion in Northern Ireland than they and to say what I believe Loyalist opinion in my constituency to be. It is notable that no Loyalist Members here tonight have interrupted to say that I am misinterpreting their ideas. If Mr. Faulkner and the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) can sit at the same table, can I not speak the same language as the Protestant working class?
  What I am attempting to do is to show not that I agree with these things but that it is a fallacy to say that it is not possible for both the Catholic and Protestant sections of the community—they may be called extremists—to think they have been betrayed. I think I have shown that. What is considered important to the Loyalists has not been granted. I will go on to show that what is considered important by the Catholic working class—the extremist working
  722
  class, if one likes, but the Republican section of the community—has not been granted either. It has nothing.
  What have we got? The Social Democratic Labour Party was not represented at the Darlington conference because it felt that it could not take part in any discussions on a final settlement without there being a firm commitment to end internment. Just like the Council of Ireland. The constitution is not a firm commitment, nor is it a commitment to say "End internment—at some time when violence stops." A date has to be given is there to be a date given—that date must be very soon—when detention without trial will be stopped?
  As for the Republican section of the community, it was told, when internment was introduced, by its elected representatives not to pay rent, not to pay rates and not to pay arrears. I myself was out-voted at a meeting where I suggested to the assembled people that they ought to save their arrears, that they should go around and appoint on each estate somebody responsible for collecting the rent money and paying it into a bank and that it should be used to fight legal cases over people who might face eviction, court orders or summonses, or that it might be used to support families of persons detained without trial and with no other means of support.
  But I was out-voted by the new-found moderates who at that time said "Spend the money, eat the money, drink the money. There will be no payment of the arrears."
  Where are we now? A total of £3½ million has been involuntarily paid back under the Emergency Payments (Debt) Act out of family allowances, supplementary benefits, unemployment benefits, out of teachers' salaries, caretakers' and nurses' salaries and the salary of anybody who works for a Government Department. That was all very well when the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland was responsible—[AN HON. MEMBER: "This is negative."] It is not negative when people are losing money. What will happen now? [Interruption.] It is all right for some hon. Members to mutter, but it is a fact of credibility.
  The same individual who told us to pay no rent, no rates and no arrears is now in a position to see that it is carried out. He

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  is the Minister-designate for Health and Social Services. Will he carry out the promise and put an end to this involuntary taking of money from people's health and social service payments? That is a fair question to ask—will he have the power?—and I ask it of the Secretary of State. Will that Minister be empowered or have it in his jurisdiction to grant an amnesty to the rent strikers as, in opposition, he demanded of the Government?
  That is a fair question. It is not a personal attack on anyone but a straightforward demand of a man who made a promise and who is now in a position to fulfil it. Can there be a measure of good faith even that far—to obtain an amnesty for rent strikers?
  With the greatest will in the world, I cannot see how the Minister-designate for Housing will reach his declared target of 20,000 houses a year unless someone starts talking realities. Every last one of the Housing Executive offices in my constituency is up to its eyes in debt that they inherited from the old councils—not debt that they created themselves. There is a housing shortage everywhere. There is land that can be bought, there are unemployed builders who could work, but there is no more credit in the banks for local executive areas which are already £1 million and more in debt. They would have to borrow again at the same interest.
  Though the Minister for Housing—I challenge the Opposition to show that it is negative to ask these questions: they are constructive—
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: The Opposition has not said whether they are negative or positive or anything in between.
  Mrs. McAliskey: I thought that I detected mutterings from the Opposition Front Bench. My apologies to those hon. Gentlemen if I was mistaken.
  Is it in the power of this Minister-designate to cancel the housing debt? Otherwise, it is talking in the air to talk of 20,000 houses when we cannot get another penny from the banks. Or is it thought possible to shore something up just to get it off the ground, so that then the purse-strings will be loosened and the money will flow and carry the thing for a year or two until it works?
  724
  Will we get not just fly-by-night industry but fly-by-night injections of money to get the system working only for a year or two?
  Or can we be shown some evidence of long-term progress, like cancellation of the outstanding debt, easier availability of land to the Housing Executive, the end of land speculation, even the temporary nationalisation of the building industry in Northern Ireland, to prevent the gross profit-making that is done out of the housing shortage by some building firms. Will the new Minister be able to do that?
  We have heard that there is no difference on the social and economic programme devised by the three parties to the new Executive. Could we, now, next year or possibly in the next decade, hear the social and economic programme? We have heard that agreement was reached on the first day. Could we see it? We have had White Papers on the amount of money available—constant White Papers on this and that, committees here and there.
  Could we please know what social and economic future has been planned for the people of Northern Ireland? It is a great deal more relevant to the man in the street to know what is in store for him in terms of his social and economic future than whether or not the United Nations will ever have to referee this situation. Can we have something like that?
  And can we be told that internment will end? I sit in my home at night and switch on the late night news on BBC 1 to see that the internees are being released two at a time: "The Commission sat today, released two, reinterned two, adjourned two." It is getting like the First Division football results. Is this the planned release of internees before Christmas which was promised, or are they once again being used as political hostages—"If you are good, they might get out and if you are not good, they will not get out"? There are far too many "mights" and "may-be's". Far too many compromises are being made to achieve nothing.
  I can see, and I do not see why I should be criticised for being able to see, what it is that angers and frustrates the working-class Protestant. I could see what angered and frustrated him right

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  from the beginning, when certain hon. Gentlemen could not, but I would not say that those whom I represent are so narrow-minded or bigoted that the very fact that the Protestants are upset, annoyed and frustrated should be for them a reason for rejoicing. That is not the kind of people I represent. They take no joy in the anger and frustration of the Protestant working class. They do not think that, just because Faulkner has no support from the Protestants, support from the Catholics should be substituted. I know, as Mr. Faulkner has said, that a win is a win is a win. But a rogue is a rogue is a rogue.
  So it is feasible that while the Protestant middle class, being less the victims of their own history, are prepared to share with the Catholic middle class in order to safeguard and protect the system from annihilation, and because the Catholic middle class always and ever had only one quarrel with the system—that they did not have a share in making it work—let no one be mistaken that the Catholic working class are happy. Their menfolk are still interned; they are still paying out arrears though people told them that it would never happen; there is still a housing shortage. Things have not changed for them.
  Perhaps they feel that they are working towards a united Ireland and may be that makes their national pride feel a bit better. Maybe they think that some day it will be better because we are heading—as we are, like it or not—towards some kind of united Ireland. But for today and tomorrow and the day after life is very much the same on the Falls Road and the Shankill. There are too many people on the dole, too many on the housing list.
  It is not enough to say, as I have heard certain hon. Members and the SDLP say, that some people should not be in Long Kesh, some people should not be interned. Let me make my position clear: nobody should be interned without trial; just nobody. Till internment is ended the Executive will have difficulty selling the deal. There will be no end to the resistance of the Catholic community till Long Kesh is closed and the lights put out for ever.
  7.30 p.m.
  Dr. Alan Glyn: The hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Mrs. McAliskey) does no service to her constituents or to Ulster by trying to brew up future troubles between the communities. If she were wise, she would advise her constituents to arrive at some sort of progress which would result in social and economic advance. She should also realise that Ulster does better economically by remaining in the United Kingdom than it does by joining with the South. I shall have something to say later about the hon. Lady's remarks on extradition.
  Apart from the hon. Lady, every hon. Member of this House is united in one thing and one thing only: we all want to see peace in the Province of Ulster. Whatever expressions of view have been made on both sides of the House, we want to see some form of government in the Province which will do away with terrorism and with the sort of existence that Northern Ireland has suffered over the last six years.
  Mrs. McAliskey: The hon. Member for Windsor (Dr. Glyn) does me a grave disservice when he says that I stand alone in the House in not wanting peace in Northern Ireland, for that was the implication of his remark. The whole tenor of my speech was that I felt this agreement and this wool-pulling exercise, far from leading to peace, would lead to violence and greater frustration. It is misleading to say that I less than anybody want peace in Northern Ireland. Of course I want peace. I live in the community and am rearing a family in it. The hon. Gentleman is not in that position.
  Dr. Glyn: I was saying that Ulster is part of the United Kingdom, and we are all as much a part of the United Kingdom as is the hon. Lady. We should not keep looking back on the mistakes we may have made. We are here today because a small minority of terrorists have caused the abolition of Stormont. We should be looking forward to the future of Northern Ireland rather than constantly looking back.
  Terrorism in Northern Ireland has resulted in the deaths of over 200 of our soldiers, in a great deal of damage to property and also in loss of civilian lives.

  727
  It is against that background that we should look at how the present arrangements are working and what benefit they can bring to the Province.
  I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on his appointment. I wish to thank him for the efficient arrangements that were made when a delegation of which I was part went to the Province to see for ourselves some of the difficulties with which the Ulster people were faced.
  We are today discussing the final devolution of power as dealt with in Part II of the Act. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was correct to say that any possible settlement in the Province must consist of two elements: first, the eradication of terrorism; and, secondly, a political formula that is capable of working.
  I turn my attention first to the Assembly. I believe that the Assembly tan be made to work if the people of Ireland realise that this is the last chance they will have of a Parliament which is elected and which must work. I was alarmed to read in the Press about the antics of the Members of the Assembly who did their best to make sure that the first session was suspended. They must realise that their Assembly is as much a parliament as it the House of Commons, and they should conduct their affairs in a similar manner. I hope that all the Members of the Assembly will forget their petty differences and join in an endeavour to make the Constitution work. I am sure that this is the only possibility open to them. After all, three parties are now working together, and if they continue to co-operate they can formulate a policy which can only be for the betterment of the Province.
  I should like to say a few words about the Council of Ireland. The co-operation in that respect is largely of an economic nature. I do not attach tremendous importance to the registration of assurances about the North deposited with the United Nations. In practice, what it means is that no form of unification can take place without the whole-hearted consent of the people of Northern Ireland. But it is the wholehearted consent that matters rather than registration in the United Nations. We all know what happened to former registrations registered with the old League of Nations.
  728
  What has come out of the Sunningdale agreement is far more fundamental and important. For the first time there is an attempt between South and North to reach some sort of co-operation. I agree that this is a small step towards the final end we would like to see.
  I should like at this point to refer to security. This problem involves two countries with a long border over which there has been a lack of co-operation between the two police forces. At times there has probably been less co-operation between the Garda and the RUC than possibly between the members of the international police. Interpol probably has closer relationships among its members in the apprehension of criminals than do the police forces in the North and the South of Ireland.
  I should like to put forward the idea of co-operation at officer level between one police force and another, with each policeman determined to catch and then try anybody who uses force to attain his ends. We must realise how extremely difficult it is to check people travelling between South and North in terms of the number of vehicles that pass daily between the two countries. The only way to apprehend wrongdoers is by a close liaison between the two police forces. This can be done by getting information in sufficient time to enable people to be caught before they have the opportunity to commit an offence.
  It has been found necessary to invoke an Act of 1861 which is far from perfect. But the people of Northern Ireland are looking for results. If it can be seen that as a result of the agreement more offenders are apprehended and action is taken by the South, people will begin to realise that there is some benefit in having a Council of Ireland. They would rather look to practicalities than to theories. They will not necessarily be looking to the Act of 1861 to see how it operates.
  In the final analysis it would be easier for extradition to be implemented because there are so many legal problems involved. It may be difficult for the Southern Irish Government to pass the necessary legislation on extradition, but this does not prevent them co-operating at a lower level since such co-operation can be of great significance. I do not want to elaborate on the provisions of the

  729
  1861 Act, but the fact is that this involves members of the Armed Forces having to give evidence in courts of law, and this could give rise to considerable security difficulties and other problems. The judges in Eire might not look with favour on a situation in which members of our Armed Forces were required to give evidence in obtaining a conviction. I hope that as time passes the co-operation between the two forces will become so good that apprehension will be made much easier. It is up to the South to show its good intentions. The Southern Irish have signed the agreement, and it is up to them to help us as much as possible in the apprehension of criminals.
  I wish to pay a special tribute to the members of the Armed Forces who have been in Northern Ireland in very difficult conditions and have maintained control over terrorism to such an extent as to enable the parties to reach agreement. I am convinced that without their help this state of comparative quiescence could not have been achieved.
  I make one point on behalf of our troops. It is to ask whether we ought not to look into the period of service required and the leave entitlement of our forces. I found their morale to be very high. I was especially honoured to be able to go to my former regiment, which is stationed in the Province, C Squadron of the Royal Horse Guards Dragoons, Blues and Royals. They are serving a 16-week period, and their morale is very high. They have as full a task as any regiment is called upon to perform in war, and sometimes even fuller. In my view, we ought to look carefully at whether those serving in Northern Ireland should continue to be regarded as serving in the United Kingdom. If it is at all possible, some form of additional leave should be granted to them. I know there are considerable difficulties in this, but I ask the Government to look into the possibility.
  We ought also to consider whether we cannot back up the RUC with some form of regular battalion. Obviously, we have to look carefully to ensure that in the future the Army and the police continue to co-operate. Every one of us wants to see the Army withdrawn as quickly as possible. However, that state of affairs cannot come about until co-operation between the police forces north and south
  730
  of the border is so complete that it is no longer necessary to have soldiers in the Province.
  I believe that the fears of many of the community that possibly this might be the first step towards a union between the North and South are unfounded. I am certain that the words printed in the Alliance newspaper are probably a better reflection. It says:
  "There is no question of agreeing to anything which in any way undermines the constitutional position of Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom."
  In my view, we cannot stress that too hard. I will concede to the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster that there are people who do not appreciate that the position has not changed, that they are still part of the United Kingdom and will remain so until a referendum has been conducted. If they can be made to appreciate that, many of the fears of extremists on both sides can be allayed.
  It has been a very long chapter. But the co-operation between the political parties in Northern Ireland may in the future give rise to a complete realignment of politics in the Province. After all, we have two parties fundamentally different working together in the Government.
  I suggest that we may see a change and reorientation of politics in elections to Westminster. I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr), who said that we ought to be looking at the representation of the Province in this House. As hon. Members are aware, there are very large constituencies, and possibly this could, and ought to, be looked at. In this part of the United Kingdom we have just had our boundary changes. In the case of Northern Ireland I do not think it unreasonable to suggest that the Boundary Commission might sit separately and consider the representation of Northern Ireland in this House.
  I am sure that we all want to see the end of terrorism and make the new Assembly and the new Constitution work. Only by making the political machine work properly shall we see the end of terrorism. Northern Ireland has a future, and all of us want to see prosperity in the Province and the complete termination of terrorism, which has existed for far too long.
  7.44 p.m.
  Mr. A. W. Stallard: Until I heard some of the remarks of the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) and the hon. Member for Windsor (Dr. Glyn), it had not been my intention to participate in this debate. In any event, I promise that I shall detain the House for only a few minutes.
  It is inevitable that the debate should be as dull as it has been so far. The reason is that there is little opposition of the kind that we are used to when discussing Northern Ireland affairs. That is understandable.
  It must be said, however, that everything in the garden is not exactly lovely. There are problems, and in the course of my remarks I intend to refer to one of two of them. Before I do that, I believe that it should be on record that recent developments have taken us a long way along the road from the very modest demands of the early civil rights campaign. Those of us who have taken an interest in the Province do not want to forget the strides made along the road that we began to take in those days. I have in mind the demands for "one man, one vote" and so on.
  Despite many disagreements and many difficulties, we have arrived at the point where Stormont has gone. In addition, the Orange Order is probably more split than it has ever been, and, what is more, split into more different factions than it has ever been, thank God. That can only be an advance.
  Mr. John E. Maginnis: I should not like the hon. Gentleman unintentionally to mislead the House. The split is not in the Orange Order. It is in the Unionist Party. The two are different.
  Mr. Stallard: I accept that correction from the hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. Maginnis), who is an expert in that kind of distinction. Certainly there are those who, a few years ago, did not see much difference between the Orange Order and the Unionist Party, and I number myself among them. I welcome the fact that there are these differences inside that organisation. Any organisation without differences of this kind is not a healthy one.
  I have argued long for political initiatives to try to replace violence. For that
  732
  reason I welcome these present initiatives and the outcome of most of them. I thought, and still think, that it was a great pity that some members of the minority opinions did not participate in these political discussions and initiatives at an earlier stage. We might have had a different picture than that which we see at present.
  I also welcome the return to elections. We strove for, and achieved, that state of affairs. However, I should like to see much freer elections. I am conscious that it would be almost impossible for some of my hon. Friends to canvass the Shankill and for some hon. Members opposite to canvass Falls Road. Until such time as we get free elections, we talk about elections with our tongues in our cheeks. There are problems to overcome. I have been observing some elections in Northern Ireland recently. Before we see free electioneering, campaigning and canvassing of the kind that takes place in my own constituency but does not occur in the constituencies of hon. Members opposite who sneer at my remarks, we shall not have free elections in the true sense. I should like to see a move towards freer elections of the kind that we know on this side of the water.
  Finally, I welcome the Council of Ireland. It has drawbacks. There are snags. There will be difficulties. However, those of us who remember earlier days and the modest demands that were made then must give credit where it is due in saying how we welcome what has happened along the road.
  Having said that, I do not believe that there will be any real progress towards permanent solutions until we end internment—full stop. We cannot play about with it. I have always objected to the policy of using detainees or internees of whichever community as political hostages. We have to say that internment will be ended, and a date for its end must be set.
  There will never be permanent peace until there is a sign that one day the British commitment will be ended. That has to be said, and that will have to happen. I know that it will be difficult, but it has to be felt by both communities. That matter is on the agenda.
  We should remove flashpoints and areas of possible tension between ourselves and

  733
  the people of both communities in Northern Ireland. We should not erect new flashpoints; we should take them away. I fear that we are erecting quite a number of flashpoints because of the way that we treat prisoners. I have asked a number of questions in the House about prisoners of all denominations currently serving sentences either here or in Northern Ireland. By our treatment of them we are not helping to ease, but are perpetuating, a situation that should be quietened down.
  In this context I should like to refer to what some people would call torture. Hon. Members may have seen a programme on television recently which illustrated the various forms of torture being used against prisoners in a number of countries in the Western world. I think that forcible feeding of the kind that I have been reading about lately is a torturous process in anybody's language.
  In a parliamentary answer that I was given this week I was told that 25 prisoners have been forcibly fed in British gaols since January this year. This process is being used against prisoners who have gone on hunger strike because their demands or requests to be transferred to Northern Ireland have been refused. Such requests are not outrageous. I am not condoning the crimes committed by these prisoners, but we have already sentenced them to life imprisonment and terms of 20 years. I think that is quite enough. What more do we want? Why do we put them in almost constant solitary confinement and force-feed them by these inhuman methods?
  We shall not remove any flashpoints while this treatment continues and the Maze, Long Kesh and Armagh remain in being. Unless we do something about these matters, flashpoints will not be erased, but erected.
  The Government, who have been intransigent and proved wrong on so many things, ought to look at these matters before it is too late. They have a new broom in the person of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. I suggest that he begins to sweep clean and says that we will end internment and agree to transfers in both directions. I understand that it is all right to transfer prisoners from Northern Ireland to this country.
  734
  I understand and appreciate the motives. I do not object to that. However, I believe that the transfer should be two ways. That would help to remove yet another flashpoint. If this new broom would begin by sweeping that slate clean we would probably remove some of the flashpoints that otherwise will become bigger and far outweigh the gains that have been made on the political initiative. I hope that the Secretary of State will take note of those points.
  7.53 p.m.
  Mr. James Molyneaux: I am glad that the hon. Member for St. Paneras, North (Mr. Stallard) accepted the correction by my hon. Friend the Member for Armagh (Mr. Maginnis) to the effect that the Orange Order is not split in different ways. I was reminded of the dry rejoinder by Mark Twain, who, when told that he had died, said that the announcement was somewhat premature. I should not like the hon. Gentleman's celebrations in believing that the Orange Order has disintegrated, as so many other bodies have done and as some on this side of the water are in the process of disintegrating, to be premature.
  At this time of grave national emergency we are engaged upon a most extraordinary exercise. We are amending an Act, which we were told could not be altered, almost before the ink has dried. It might have been wiser to be less insistent on the inviolate nature of the Constitution Act. The impression always given was that the Act could not be altered in any circumstances. This was particularly so when changes were suggested by those who held grave doubts about its workability—those who have been labelled "unpledged" by some and "unbribed" by others.
  The hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) said that, in his view, it was legitimate for people in Northern Ireland to have aspirations towards a United Ireland. Certainly those with such aspirations should have freedom to express their views. No one will quarrel with that proposition. Indeed, no one will blame the British Government for backing that view or regard it as a sellout if they give those people the right to express such views. But the British Government and Parliament are under no obligation to provide the machinery to fulfil those aspirations. That is what the

  735
  Sunningdale conference has done, and that is why it is regarded as a sell-out and a betrayal by a much wider spectrum than the so-called extremists who are often alluded to in this House.
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that he thought that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland accept what is proposed, but that there were some who never wanted any constitutional change. That may be so, and I do not quarrel with it. But to them must be added the new band of professional middle-class objectors who have seen through the smokescreen and clearly identified the dangers and the defects despite all the painstaking attempts to conceal their real nature.
  Nothing has so far been said in the debate to disprove the assertions that the so-called guarantee is entirely bogus. The formula in the communiqué is certainly no advance on what has already been said as distinct from what has been done in the past.
  It is a feeble excuse to say that it is not politically possible to change the constitution of the Republic and that public opinion in the South would not stand for it. One it tempted to ask: will that same public opinion in the South honour and sustain even the vague verbal assurances given at Sunningdale?
  I want to take up briefly a question to which no satisfactory answer has to far been given; namely, the non-participation by some of the leaders and representatives of parties in Northern Ireland in the Sunningdale conference. The White Paper gave the clear impression that the elected leaders of the people of Northern Ireland would be invited to attend. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister at a later stage proposed that Northern Ireland should be represented by the new Executive as a unit. But, in the event, Her Majesty's Government opted for something which was neither one thing nor the other.
  The three negotiating teams of the three parties were invited. It really will not do for the Prime Minister to say that others were invited to participate but refused. They were invited to attend to state their views at the beginning, but it was made quite clear that they would be expected to leave immediately afterwards. They were placed on much the same kind of level as, for example, the
  736
  catering staff, but at a lower level than the international Press, which at least was allowed to indulge in the vigil to the very end. Those representatives have not decided, as has been suggested, to become the Stormont Opposition. At least, to my knowledge they have not made such a decision. In any case, that had no relevance to the Council of Ireland conference.
  It is all very well to lecture these Loyalists, who are now what might be called the statutory minority, on how they ought to behave. But the House must face this point squarely. If these people are expected to work constitutionally, the door to democratic, constitutional practices must not be closed on them.
  I come to the remarkable expansion in the numbers of the administration to 15. It is true that the old Stormont had nearly as many members in its latter days, but it was not always so. For over 40 years it had only one Minister to each major Ministry. The increase in numbers began when it became necessary for Northern Ireland Prime Ministers, who had by then reached a fairly rapid turnover rate, to engage in delicate balancing operations and, for one reason or another, when they thought it expedient to reward some and to muzzle others. I always felt that the apparatus was somewhat top heavy. I regret that Her Majesty's Government have decided to create so many jobs for the boys.
  Like my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr), I have on many occasions, sometimes in the middle of the night—a time when my judgment is at its soundest—paid tribute to the efficiency of the Northern Ireland ministerial team. Some of them have managed as many as three Departments, and all of that in addition to the strain of commuting between Belfast and London to perform not only ministerial duties in this House but their own parliamentary duties and responsibilities in looking after their constituents. I should have thought, therefore, that the characters who will now fill the stools at Stormont, resident, as they will be, on their home ground, might very well have got through with half the suggested number.
  My constituents often ask me why it is that the Westminster Parliament refuses to stand up for the constitutional integrity

  737
  of Northern Ireland and, in a positive way, support parliamentary democracy in Northern Ireland, to which they feel, as British citizens, that they are entitled. But when they go on to accuse the Westminster Parliament of being selfish and of selfishly deserting them, I point out that it is rather unfair to level such a charge against a Parliament which has, of its own free will and accord, surrendered its rights and powers in a similar fashion to another authority known as the EEC.
  It is in no personal sense that I differ from my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) when I assess the volume of support for the new structures as being very much smaller than he has suggested. My experience has been that a great mass of Ulster people, including many who would regard themselves as being non-political, have no confidence whatever in what they regard as the products of a sordid conspiracy between men of few principles and of none.
  8.2 p.m.
  Mr. Frank McManus: I am sure that the House will be delighted to know from the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) that God is in his Heaven, that the Orange Order is not split and that things are all well. I was tickled by one of the hon. Gentleman's suggestions. He said, with some justification, that the administration should not be as big as it is but perhaps half the size. I am wondering where he will get the half to make up the seven and a half. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will enlighten us on a future occasion about how he will get round that matter.
  When the Secretary of State came to Northern Ireland first, he said in relation to the extremists that the policy would be to discredit, to isolate, and ultimately to defeat them. Her Majesy's loyal Opposition have obviously made a reasonable effort to isolate myself and my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Ulster (Mrs. McAliskey). I trust that we have not been discredited. We are very far from defeated. But it is all part of the double standards of democracy which have emerged in the process of this debate particularly. For example, hon. Members on both sides of the House are told that
  738
  they have a perfect democratic right to register their protest, to make their point and to air their point of view. But the minute that we start to do that we are labelled as extremist. The only way to escape being labelled as an extremist if one disagrees with the Government, it appears, is to shut up and say nothing. The moment one disagrees with this eminently reasonable solution which has been arrived at by reasonable men, once one takes issue with that, one is automatically an extremist.
  I had no learned doctor teaching me about democracy, but it strikes me that that is not a proper attitude. If one says that a Member of the House has a right to put his point of view one ought to let him do that, and one ought to consider on its merits what he says rather than slapping a label of extremism on him, from whatever side of the House he may come.
  We are also asked, "What is your alternative? What would you have? Would you have, instead of this, a return to anarchy, more anarchy or worse anarchy?" The simple answer to that, from where I and my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Ulster stand—and, now, many hon. Members on the Government side of the House—is that we are not in the business of offering alternatives. We are those people on the outside. We have no power of any sort. It is not our job. Our function in the democratic system—I believe that this is what democracy is supposed to be about—is to examine what is presented and to say that we dislike it if we find in it things which we do not like. It is an insufficient reply from the Front Bench of either side of the House to say, "What would you offer in return?" That is far too simple to be sufficient.
  Mr. Orme: As my hon. Friend has explained, rightly—I do not criticise his words—the logic of democracy is to examine, to dissent and to show one's opposition. That is one's entitlement. Carrying that democratic principle further, one has an obligation, surely, to those one represents to show what the alternatives are. While demolishing something, what does one put in its place?
  Mr. McManus: My hon. Friend is a noted champion of democracy. Perhaps

  739
  I may take him back to something in which he was involved recently, although I may be getting a little off the point. Recently my hon. Friend called for the removal of a judge, properly appointed, in this country. He did not say by what he would replace the judge. He said, "Get rid of the judge." I think that is fair reply to my hon. Friend.
  However, I come to the communiqué from which the debate has sprung. First, the Sunningdale communiqué, so-called, is in effect, from one point of view, a rubber stamp. It may not be widely known in the House, but it has reached my ears on fair authority, that the business of this House for today was already prearranged, before Sunningdale took place. It therefore appears to me that the Prime Minister, or the Secretary of State at least, had a fair idea that out of Sunningdale there would come a communiqué. If that is so, I suggest that Sunningdale was merely a rubber stamping of an agreement which had already been arrived at.
  A noted scholar, who is well informed on the business of conflict research, which is in the news now, recently pointed out that what happened at Sunningdale, in effect, was a reasonable example of the disorientation method. The method is to get them together, keep them together, entertain them well, deprive them of sleep; if one committee does not do the trick, break up that committee and reform it. Keep them together till they are confused and ready to agree to almost anything. I am not suggesting that my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) was terribly confused at the end of the day. I am merely recounting to the House that it is a possible interpretation that when one cuts people off from even the Press for a fairly prolonged time, at the end of the day they are more likely to agree to what is presented to them.
  It has been presented as a package deal. That is the language of the Government. Therefore, it is very fair and reasonable, if it is a package deal, to ask "What is in it for us?" If that is the language in which it is to be presented, it is only reasonable to examine it for what is in it for us. The SDLP, the party which is led by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West, was
  740
  negotiating, we are told, on behalf of the Catholic, or minority, community. Therefore, in effect, we are asking what the SDLP gets out of this package deal. The answer, I fear, is a grave disappointment to the people whom it claims to represent.
  We were told that there were no winners and no losers; everybody taking part had a little to give and a little to get. The question therefore arises: what did the side with which I am concerned, the SDLP, give? The answer is that it gave the only thing it had to give. All it had in its power to give was its consent to co-operate with the British Government to run this new deal.
  While it withheld its consent it was in a bargaining position, because the British Government made it clear on a number of occasions that unless there was a wide base—in other words, unless there was considerable Catholic participation in an executive—an executive could not and would not be formed, and on 30th March next year the British Government would have had to make an agonising reappraisal of their entire policy towards Northern Ireland. I thought that that was a very good position in which to be. The SDLP had it in its power to prevent the creation of an Executive if it stuck it out. If it went into negotiations, the end result of which ought to be a package deal, then if it dug in its heels it was likely to get a good deal.
  That is the level at which the negotiations were cast. A bit of horse-trading went on at Sunningdale; everybody received a little and everybody gave a little. It appears to me that the party which my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West leads gave the only thing that it had to give, and we are bound to ask what it received in return. Loyalist Members opposite have said what their people received, or did not receive. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Ulster also had thoughts on this subject. I would confine my remarks to what, in my opinion, the minority people whom I represent have gained.
  We are to get a Council of Ireland. I do not think anybody, certainly no one on the minority side, objects to the Council of Ireland. It is a very nice idea. It is a very interesting notion that people from the North and South come

  741
  together and begin to discuss their problems. What are the powers of this Council of Ireland? Or is it to be merely a talking shop? A number of steps led up to this conclusion. The steps by which the SDLP gave its consent ought to be recorded, because underneath the barrage of propaganda to sell this deal there is a danger that they will be lost sight of.
  At the beginning it was said that there would be no talks till internment ended and the party was very firm, very committed, to that stance. The stance was changed when an election was announced, or shortly before it, and it then said, "We are going forward to be elected to sit at a conference table." It said, "Dear voters, it will be nothing but a conference table and nothing will be given till the contentious issues of internment and policing are satisfactorily resolved." Then an arrangement was arrived at, and it was said, "Set up the mechanics of the Executive but do not agree to anything till all is settled." Then came Sunningdale, and then came final agreement.
  The first point that has been picked out of Sunningdale is the Council of Ireland. The Loyalists tell us that it gives offence to them. If the future Minister of Community Relations is to be believed, he said in Strabane the other night, "If Craig and Paisley are complaining a lot about it, then it must be good for us." That is good non-sectarian conversation from a future Minister of Community Relations. I am sure that he will do the job very well, if that is how he begins.
  A strange thing happened the other day in my constituency. Hot on the heels of the announcement of the Council of Ireland the British Government, through the agency of the British Army, started to build a wall along the border. They put big dragons' teeth and spikes and all manner of obstructions along the border—not exactly on the border, and in some places a quarter of a mile inside it. The local people know that they are not effective security arrangements and the local men and the Army who are putting them up told the local people that it is a lot of nonsense but they had to do their job. It is obvious that these arrangements are merely to annoy the local community, and to satisfy somebody somewhere that there is an effective security
  742
  operation. It jars a little on those who would have us interpret the Council of Ireland as a step towards a united Ireland.
  What is the point of announcing a Council of Ireland one day and then redefining the border another day by starting to build a wall? There are a number of mini-Berlin walls standing now right along the border. Are we to look forward to the day when there will be one continuous wall in the North of Ireland?
  The common law enforcement area is to be preceded by the re-enactment of the law of 1861, about which hon. and learned Gentlemen were speaking earlier—
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: I am interested in the hon. Gentleman's point about the Council of Ireland. The sons of some people in my constituency are soldiers in Northern Ireland and I am concerned about people being killed, soldiers or anybody else. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that he is against this wall because it is ineffective, or because it is an attempt to stop people from crossing the border with bombs and guns? Is he in favour of those who shoot and kill? I wonder whether he can tell us that.
  Mr. McManus: I do not see how that follows at all. The hon. Gentleman was not following what I said. What I said was that this wall was placed there more for nuisance value than anything else. That is how it appears to me from talking to the people, and hearing their reported conversations with soldiers. It does not follow from that that I am in favour of anybody killing a soldier, be he from the hon. Gentleman's constituency or from any other constituency.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: I wonder if I may put this question, because after 10 years in the House of Commons I expect people to stand up and be counted. I am a democratic Socialist and I am against people who shoot and kill, whatever their background. Whether or not that follows, does the hon. Gentleman support those who shoot and kill and bomb in Northern Ireland?
  Mr. McManus: I will respond to the hon. Gentleman with another question. He has just said very forcefully that he is against people who shoot and kill, no

  743
  matter what the reason. As he wants people to stand up and be counted, will he stand now at the Dispatch Box and, for instance, condemn the paratroopers who shot 13 people dead in Derry? I throw that question back at the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: I am quite prepared to answer that question, because it is very important. But I asked the first question, and if the hon. Gentleman will answer my question I will answer his.
  Mr. McManus: I take the position that I do not like killing at all. If I liked killing I would be in either the British Army or some other army. But I am an elected politician and I am attempting to do my job in the ever-diminishing confines of constitutional democracy.
  Mr. David James: Does the hon. Gentleman remember that the Army which he so despises was brought in at the request of the Catholic hierarchy to save Catholics' lives?
  Mr. McManus: The hon. Member need not have wasted his breath. I have every reason to remember all these events, because I lived through them. How could I forget them? The Romans came to this country to bring a little civilisation here, and what they did to the people after they arrived is a subject for interminable argument.
  I should like the Minister to answer at least one question. He is not in the habit of answering any questions that I put to him, but when this 1861 law has been reactivated, it will mean that if somebody from the North or from the South shoots a soldier in the North of Ireland and escapes into the South he will be arrested in the South and brought to court in the South and witnesses will be summoned. What I want the Minister to tell us is whether he anticipates the day when British soldiers will be arriving in Dublin courts to give evidence. If he does anticipate that, has he any thoughts at all on the likely repercussions that such a move will have in that part of Ireland?
  Can the Minister tell me by what date it is expected that the Council of Ireland's powers will come into effect? We have been told that the Executive will have effect from 1st January. There is to be a formal conference at some time later in
  744
  the month. Is it a fact that, as a result of that formal conference, the powers of the Council of Ireland will have effect from that moment, or are there to be commissions, committees and studies, so that at this time next year we will come back to this House and ask again when the Council of Ireland will have a little power?
  The Council of Ireland is a non-contentious issue. It is a good idea if it gets enough power, but what about the really contentious issues which have been mentioned so often in this House? Is internment any less contentious today than it was?
  The SDLP now says, with the Government and Mr. Faulkner, that if the violence stops internment will end. Everyone knew that from the beginning, but the logic of that statement is that it is right, while violence lasts, for internees to be interned. That is what the SDLP is now saying. That view is not going down well with the people in Northern Ireland, with the people who have brothers, sisters and relatives interned and in prison.
  One of the other points of the SDLP election manifesto was an amnesty for political offences. I am prepared to wager that the word was never even mentioned at Sunningdale. So, internment is still with us in as vicious and escalating a form as ever it was. The British Government say, "Let there be a bit of good will. If we have good will all round, given a bit of time this thing can work." They are sticking their heads in the sand. They are not facing the facts.
  We are approaching the universal season of good will. There are eight people in this country, two of them young girls, who are on hunger strike and are being forcibly fed. They live not a quarter of a mile away from the Minister-designate for Health and Social Services. How is he to sell his package to his immediate neighbours when these people will not even be returned to Northern Ireland? That is all they ask. They are not asking to be released but only to be sent home to a more friendly atmosphere. The courts of this country sentenced them to life imprisonment. Surely that is punishment enough, or do the Government want blood as well? All they want is to be returned to a better atmosphere. How is a relative of young

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  Kelly to travel to the Isle of Wight once or twice a month? It is a long way from Belfast. How are the visitors to get there and back and who is to pay? The simple and humane answer is to send these people back to Northern Ireland where they want to be.
  What deal did the SDLP get on the police? What commitment to reform was it promised? The answer is, nothing. There was a reaffirmation of the facts that the RUC will continue to be the police force of Northern Ireland. At Question Time today the Government were asked a significant and timely question—how many complaints have there been against the RUC? The Secretary of State said there had been something in excess of 2,600. Of that number three people have so far been found guilty. That is an extraordinary figure. Either the police are saints and the population are malicious, or else the complaints procedure is absolutely inadequate. The police force is no more acceptable now, even though the SDLP says it is, than it was six months ago when it said that the police force of this country and the RUC were not acceptable to the SDLP's constituents. Nothing has happened in the intervening six months to alter that, and nor is there any abatement of harassment by the Army.
  These are the issues that count, not whether there should be 30, 60 or 100 members on the Council of Ireland. Most people do not give twopence about how many members there will be. They want to know when their people will be released from internment and when the police and the Army will get off their backs. They want to know when they will get equal chances in their communities.
  I recall that four or five years ago a campaign was launched in Northern Ireland calling for one man one vote. That request was granted. Yet—lo and behold!—the British and Irish Governments meeting together in their democratic wisdom have devised a system which has obliterated the notion of one man one vote. There will be 30 members from the North and 30 from the South. There are 2 million voters in the South and 1 million in the North. One vote in the North is, therefore, equal to two votes in the South and out goes the con-
  746
  cept of one man one vote. That arrangement offends by any standard of democracy. If there is to be democracy let it be consistent or let things be handled in some other way.
  The SDLP has been placed in an odious position. It has been given the task by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland of selling the package to its people, but he has given it nothing with with to sell it. He could have if he had wanted to. He could have said, "You can tell your people the internees will be released, there will be substantial reform in the police, and the Army will lay off you." He told it none of these things. He told it, "Sell the package or the deal is off."
  My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) has attempted during the debate to play one side off against the other. He has attempted to say that if it offends the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) it automatically must please us, or vice versa. He must think that we are either idiots or children.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: I was not attempting to play off one side against the other. I was putting a simple syllogism. If one side says it is bad and the other side says it is bad they both cannot be right, except in the sense that it was approached by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Ulster (Mrs. McAliskey), but she changed the premises. But on the premises that I have based the argument it cannot be a sell-out to both sides. That is a fact of life.
  Mr. McManus: What is a fact of life is that the people of the minority community by and large have realised that the Dublin Government care not for them or their problems or their future. The Loyalist community is learning to its cost that the British Government care not for it or its future.
  Out of this situation there emerges hope. Perhaps it will lead to some sort of real power sharing rather than the enforced and artificial business that is being pushed down the throats of all sections of the population.
  I return to a point I raised when I spoke in this House last. The White Paper said there ought to be widespread support in the community for the Executive. The election results show that

  747
  the SDLP representatives of the Catholic community got less than 49 per cent. of the Catholic vote. The hon. Member for Antrim, North told us that the Loyalists represent two-thirds of the Unionists vote. If we add two-thirds of one side to 51 per cent. of the other there is obviously a majority against. That is the basis of my case. A fair and reasonable way out is to put it to the test. Let the new Executive go to the country with its plans and proposals and seek the endorsement of the electorate. If it gets it, I shall be the first to come to this House and say it is worthy of support.
  8.28 p.m.
  Mr. Carol Mather: The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. McManus) said that it was a long way from Northern Ireland to the Isle of Wight. The people who are now on the Isle of Wight need not have come here in the first place. As for his inability to answer the specific question posed by the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees), I do not think that any comment is necessary about that.
  I apologise for not being in the Chamber during the earlier stages of the debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) on the determined way in which he delivered his speech. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on his new appointment, and I welcome him here, in that capacity. He has qualities which I am sure will be well appreciated by the people of Northern Ireland.
  In the past I have disagreed with some aspects of policy in Northern Ireland, notably the aspect of policy which brings us back today. However, that is water under the bridge. I welcome the proposals which are before us. Recently I visited Northern Ireland after a gap of six months. It was interesting to see how the situation had changed. It appears that the terrorists have been driven from their city strongholds back to the borders. That is a major objective.
  A new political initiative has been taken which I believe will open up new and unexpected opportunities. Some sections of the majority population of Northern Ireland are still fearful and resentful. They do not know what the future will hold. It is possible that violence could be triggered off by unscrupulous people.
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  As for those who tried to wreck the Assembly, I believe that they will gain no sympathy in this country for their cause.
  A vicious campaign is going on against the RUC—namely, the murder or attacking of RUC constables, by the IRA. Further, we cannot rule out attempts at political assassination and possible civil industrial action. We are now balanced on a knife edge between opportunity and senseless chaos. There is an opportunity in the present situation which I should like to expand upon. I was always sceptical about power sharing and whether it could really work. Following my visit to Northern Ireland, and having had talks with many leaders of political parties in Northern Ireland, I believe that the political chemistry of Northern Ireland has undergone a change. We would be burying our heads in the sand if we did not recognise that. That is the sort of thing which we find when we do not live in a country but visit it from time to time. In that situation we notice the changes which take place.
  That change seems to have come about after months of suffering and weeks of hard, hammering talks which culminated in the talks at Sunningdale. There seems to have grown up a new relationship between the opposing political parties. I feel sure that that will have its effect on the Executive and upon its work.
  We have heard criticism about what the talks possibly gave away in respect of the Unionist cause. I believe, paradoxically, that a united Ireland is perhaps less near now than it was before the talks took place. I understand that on several issues the rival parties in Northern Ireland came together in unison during the talks to put their case against the case put forward by the South. I understand that that happened, for example, on unanimity, on the location of the All-Ireland Court, and on proportional representation.
  It may well be that we shall hear, as a result of the Council of Ireland, less and less about a united Ireland. Another factor is the harmonising function of the Council. There will be closer alignment between the laws and institutions of the South and the laws and the institutions of Great Britain. That applies particularly to the formation of the new police authority. That may well have the effect

  749
  of drawing Southern Ireland closer to the institutions of the United Kingdom.
  I believe that there were advances for the Loyalist side on the question of the police authority in the agreement of the Republican Government to form a police authority and that the Executive should have power through the police authority as soon as the security problem is resolved. This goes much further than the position before the talks took place. Above all, it seems to me that, curiously enough, relationships have been formed between the parties which went to these talks which could lead to a harmonious Executive, and that power sharing may be transformed into the use of joint power for these parties to speak with one voice.
  If these talks have been a success, we shall need early proof—the people of Northern Ireland will expect it—that the accord actually means something, and means something on the ground. We need an early demonstration that there is going to be security co-operation on the border and that efforts will be made to bring to justice the criminals on the run in the South.
  I believe that at this juncture of our affairs in the United Kingdom it is vitally important that these new institutions work, particularly in the grave home and international situation which we now face—a situation which will be doubly compounded for Northern Ireland and for the South of Ireland if this strife and violence continue.
  8.37 p.m.
  Mr. James Wellbeloved: One striking thing about all the debates on Northern Ireland has been the almost complete absence from the Chamber of almost all Members of the House of Commons. I say, as I have done before, that it is the biggest disgrace of this decade that there should not have been greater interest among hon. Members in dealing with a situation so vitally concerned with the hopes and aspirations of the people of Northern Ireland, and in which the lives and homes of the people are having their fate determined by what we do in this House.
  It is even worse when we consider our responsibilties, as Members of the House, to those we charge with carrying out the policies of the Government, however mis-
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  taken we may from time to time think those policies are. We should be fulfilling our duty and responsibility to be here in the House when we are discussing policies and decisions whereby we will be sending men to die in Northern Ireland serving in the British Army.
  I hope, therefore, that the Press will report to the people of the country the failure in responsibility by hon. Members on both sides of this House—their failure to take an interest in what they expect others to give their lives for.
  I have watched the build-up in this House on the constitutional changes in Northern Ireland. I hope that power sharing will work and that the Council of Ireland will work. I have paid tribute, and do so again, to the great courage of those in Northern Ireland who have put at risk their political future and perhaps their lives in trying to make a go of the new set-up. But I know in my heart that their efforts will be in vain.
  I say that because I have only to listen to the debate to realise once again the deep bitterness which exists, the deep refusal by the Unionists to accept that Northern Ireland should ever be integrated into the Republic, and the undertones from the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. McManus) and the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Mrs. McAliskey).
  I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone, who ended his speech by saying that it would be right if the new Executive was to put its proposals on power sharing and everything else to the Northern Ireland people for their opinion. The new Executive will not dare to put those proposals forward on that basis because it knows that they would be overwhelmingly defeated. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) says that they would not. Let the Executive put it to the people of Northern Ireland if it has that faith. I declare that if the Constitution Act passed by this Parliament had been put to the test of opinion in Britain it would have been decisively rejected. Let us not go on making claims without being prepared to put them to the test of public opinion.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Is the hon. Member aware that there is a by-election in North

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  Antrim but the Government will not even make it possible for the people of North Antrim to be represented in the Assembly?
  Mr. Wellbeloved: I was aware of that. If the Government and those of my hon. Friends who support the Government in what I believe to be a tragically mistaken policy really believe in the policy and in democracy, let them ensure, before we go any further with this folly, that the people of Northern Ireland have another chance to record their opinion on the basis of what they now know. If there is still any doubt, let the people of this country have an opportunity, too.
  8.43 p.m.
  Mr. John E. Maginnis: The point made by the hon. Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Wellbeloved) is valid. However, I estimate that it will be roughly four years before the occasion to which he refers will arise. It would be interesting to find out what the reaction of the people of Northern Ireland to the new set-up will be in four years' time. No one can accurately assess that now. The new Executive and all the other things which have been agreed will be judged on results. In the end the results produced will be adjudicated in a fair manner by the people of Northern Ireland. I leave it at that.
  Let us look at the flimsy nature of the foundations of the new Executive. I looked back to the original setting up of the Northern and Southern Irish Governments under the 1920 Act. They were set up in such a way that they were not dependent on the then Council of Ireland because, as we know, it never worked. I discovered that there were 20 Ministers from the North and South on that Council who were to meet together to discuss arrangements whereby they could co-operate on matters of mutual concern. Today we find that the Council of Ireland has not only 14 Ministers but also 60 members, 30 from each side. In total it is almost as large as the Northern Ireland Assembly. I begin to wonder if this is the setting up of a United Nations organisation. A much smaller, more coherent body, would have been able to the job just as well.
  I make my position clear. I am not against the Council of Ireland as such. No right thinking person would be. To
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  make it a condition that the new Executive could not even be formed or given power until the council was agreed upon was a gross injustice to the people of all Ireland.
  For the first time an institution in the United Kingdom could not be set up without the consent of a power outside the United Kingdom. The British Government have said repeatedly—we have all along accepted it in good faith—that the wishes of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland would be respected regarding the constitutional position. For the first time ever, in this new agreement, we have the other side of the coin, namely, that the Government in this country would not stand in the way of the majority of the people if they decided to form a united Ireland. It can be argued that it is the same on both sides, but it is not. The emphasis has changed.
  I am convinced—and I am sure many other people are, despite their enthusiasm to get something to work in Northern Ireland—that for the first time we have had shown to us the desire of the main bodies of opinion in Parliament in this country to work together to form, at a future date, a united Ireland. A united Ireland will come some time, but only by consent. If we try to put pressure on either side to bring about a united Ireland we shall defeat our purpose. I am convinced that the power-sharing concept imposed in the new legislation should have been left to us so that power would be shared and worked out in whatever way might be wished. It would have been accepted much better then than having it imposed.
  In the set-up of the new Executive the sharing out of power among the various parties will result in the SDLP getting far more posts than it is entitled to on an electoral basis. This worries me. The original Unionists agreed to the Council of Ireland, and to many other things, but they envisaged a council which took account of the various services common to both North and South—roads, railways, canals, rivers, electricity and so on.
  If the new council, as envisaged in the Sunningdale agreement, is interpreted as being something more, one can understand the fears of the Loyalist population in Northern Ireland. I repeat what I said in a debate about three weeks ago.

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  We cannot expect the new Constitution of Northern Ireland to work if we alienate a large majority of Loyalist opinion. This is the crux of the matter.
  We have asked repeatedly—and the case has been made out repeatedly—for full representation of Northern Ireland in this House. I am sure—and I ask the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) whether he agrees with this—that the opposition to this artificial power-sharing concept in Northern Ireland would be greatly diminished if the British Government said to the people of Northern Ireland, "We are prepared to consider the question of your representation in the Mother of Parliaments in order to see how we can give you fair representation." If this happened people would not worry about the Executive in Northern Ireland because they would have full representation in this House. The Government must concede this sooner or later.
  I should like my right hon. Friend to look again at the Kilbrandon Report which specifically states that Northern Ireland is under-represented in this House. When new assemblies were proposed for Scotland and Wales leaders of the Labour Party said, "Not on your life. We will not accept an assembly if there is any diminution of representation at Westminster". In those circumstances, how can the Government continue to disregard the wishes of the majority of the people in Northern Ireland?
  Much has been said about extremists on both sides. I am not an extremist. I believe in sticking to my point of view. If people call that being extremist, fair enough. Every institution has its faults. No institution is worth its salt if it cannot stand criticism. I have criticised the concept of the new Northern Ireland Executive. I criticise it in a spirit of good will, but I shall not roam the streets of Northern Ireland shouting off my head to bring it down because, as I have said, a power-sharing concept may withstand plenty of pressure from without, but it will never withstand pressure from within.
  We shall have to look again at the power-sharing concept, because we are destroying the very essence of democracy. How can any political party which par-
  754
  ticipates in a power-sharing executive in Northern Ireland, with a chief whip, and so on, form a coalition and fight an election on different issues and, if it wins, return to power and do the same thing? That would be utter nonsense. I am convinced, however, that if people in Northern Ireland were given the right to form a democratically elected parliament or assembly they would ensure that the minority had proper representation in it. We should work for that, because I cannot see the Executive lasting for any time.
  I wish to say a word of congratulation to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. He has served this House well. I know that his period as Chief Whip has not been easy. I wish him all success in Northern Ireland.
  As I see on the Front Bench my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State who is in charge of agriculture in Northern Ireland I should like to ask him to look into a problem which has arisen recently in Northern Ireland. The Farm Improvement Scheme is due to come to an end on 31st December 1973. By that date receipts for work carried out under that scheme and one or two other schemes must be submitted. I plead with my hon. Friend to try to get an extension of at least four weeks to the end of January. Much work under the schemes has been started. In my area several schemes are half-way through. The contractors are not able to fulfil their obligations and have the work finished by 31st December. Chaos will result. For the sake of four weeks, it would be well worth while giving the hard-pressed farmers a stay of execution.
  8.54 p.m.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: We are making an historic decision in this Chamber. We in Northern Ireland hear a great deal about the enthusiasm of this House for what it is doing. A prominent member of the Executive-designate, Mr. Basil McIvor, has told the people of Northern Ireland that 600 Members of Parliament, waving their Order Papers enthusiastically, passed the Northern Ireland Constitution Act in a united effort to bring peace to our land. Those of us who have done our spell of duty in this House on matters relating to Northern Ireland know that that is a falsehood.

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  Even for the Second Reading debate there was a sparse House, and the Opposition, by not opposing it, did not need to vote for it, so Opposition Members took a holiday. Let us be truthful. There is no great enthusiasm in the House, even tonight.
  What amazes the people of Northern Ireland is that Ministers of Her Majesty's Government and hon. and right hon. Members of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, and even hon. Members on the Government benches, should claim to know what the people of Northern Ireland are thinking. They tell us almost to the thousand what will be the majority one way or the other. The hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) often taunts us by asking who speaks for whom. He never fought an election in Northern Ireland. He submitted himself to the electorate at the same time as I did, and we were elected on the same day. Eventually, the people of Northern Ireland were given an election—a strange one. It was not an election in which any party could say that if its members were returned to power it would do certain things. It was an election on the Northern Ireland Constitution Act, which provided that no party could ever be the Government. There was a veto, clearly spelt out by the former Secretary of State, that unless the Republican elements in the community joined the Executive there could be no Government.
  I asked the Library to tell me the voting figures at that election. Last night on television the Minister of State told the people that he knew confidentially that this solution was widely accepted. The Northern Ireland election was not fought on who should be the Government, for no Government could come out of it. It was fought on the issue of the White Paper and the Northern Ireland Constitution Act.
  The party of the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) fought the election on the issue of the conference table. We fought it on the basis that we rejected the proposals and thought that there should be re-negotiation. Now, the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) tells us that he knows that only a few hooligans think that this solution cannot work. He has never submitted himself to an electorate as a member of the Alliance Party. He came into
  756
  the House as an official Unionist. A member of the Alliance Party submitted himself to the electorate in his constituency and scraped in without getting the quota. The hon. Member, therefore, has no right to tell us that he knows what the electorate thinks. His party got 66,541 first preference votes, yet he tells us that only a few people are against the proposal.
  Mr. Faulkner's party, which stood on the pro-Unionist ticket, got 162,000 first preference votes. I remember when Mr. Faulkner submitted himself to the electorate. He was not altogether for the White Paper. He had strong reservations on the Council of Ireland and felt that there could never be a Council of Ireland until Articles 2 and 3 of the Eire Constitution were deleted. It was spelled out clearly. Yet Mr. Cosgrave could go on television last Sunday night and say that it was never mentioned at Sunningdale.
  What about those who oppose the White Paper? The opponents cast 264,000 first preference votes; 149,483 votes were cast for the SDLP. The 264,000 votes represent a large section of the community.
  We were given the first Bill and told that, when passed, it would be the law of the land and could not be changed. But we are changing it today. The plebiscite can also be changed. The only hope for the people of Northern Ireland to stay out of the Republic is to keep their majority. That is the only safeguard. All these little enshrinements at the United Nations mean nothing. The only thing that will keep Northern Ireland out of a united Ireland will be that majority of people refusing to support the move.
  The clause about the plebiscite can be removed too. I am rather perplexed to know why this was written into the Act:
  "… a Northern Ireland Executive can be formed which, having regard to the support it commands in the Assembly and to the electorate on which that support is based, is likely to be widely accepted throughout the community."
  Can anyone say that with 264,000 first preference votes cast against it it could be widely accepted? Nobody could say that. The kernel of the matter is that the Executive should put its policy to the country. It has an economic and social

  757
  policy. If this country had a General Election, the Government would have to spell out their economic and social policies and the Opposition would be spelling out theirs. The electorate would decide between those policies. Nobody except those people on the Executive know what is the economic and social policy. We have no say in the policy that is to be pursued. It should be submitted to the people.
  Let it be said that it is not the Government's intention to allow the people of Northern Ireland to make this decision. We shall be lectured about the democratic process and no doubt we shall be told "You must do this and that. If you do not, you will not get any sympathy." The people of Northern Ireland are not looking for sympathy. They have got far beyond looking to this House or anybody else for sympathy. The people of Northern Ireland ask only to be treated the way that this country treats the rest of the United Kingdom. Let the people give their decision on this matter because this House has learned—perhaps it was long in learning—that one cannot successfully run any Government if a large section of the population is absolutely and totally opposed to it. It cannot be done.
  What the people also resent—I must say this tonight although it will be unsavoury and unpalatable to hon. Members—is the threat of economic sanctions. We are being told "If you express your opposition, if you campaign through the country to show that this is not widely accepted you will go into an economic wilderness." That was said by the Minister of State on television last night.
  What is more, the Minister tried to tell us that the Grundig factory was going to Newry because the Executive had been formed. Grundig has been negotiating for another factory for almost two years, and the decision had nothing to do with the forming of the Executive. I welcome employment to Northern Ireland even if it goes to an area where the people would not agree with my policies; they are entitled to an opportunity to work. But let not the people of Northern Ireland be told that it has happened because of the Executive.
  The one thing that the people of Northern Ireland want is peace, and no hon. Member on either side who is for the Bill has been able to show how it could possibly bring peace. The hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. Maginnis) spoke the truth when he talked of a savage attack by the IRA upon the police. Violence is escalating in Northern Ireland. This is contributing not to peace but to more and more turmoil.
  We were also told that when the Assembly had been formed there would be a conference. The White Paper said:
  "Following the elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Government will invite the Government of the Republic of Ireland and the leaders of the elected representatives of Northern Ireland to a conference."
  If the Government had said plainly "We have changed our minds; we do not now believe that we should invite the elected representatives of Northern Ireland opinion but only the Executive-designate and their parties to the conference", that would at least have been a clear-cut decision and we would have understood what they were about.
  But when Mr. William Craig, Mr. West and I visited the Secretary of State, we were told that they were going as members of the Executive-designate, as a group, that it would be a group conference attended by the Southern Government, Her Majesty's Government and the parties of the Executive-designate. In our last debate in Stormont on the Assembly, the Chief Whip of the SDLP said that that was totally untrue, that the Secretary of State had told them that they were going as separate parties. That is on the record at Stormont.
  Therefore, we felt, quite rightly, that, with 264,000 first preference voters in our favour, far more than any other group in the Assembly, and comprising a third of the Assembly's members, we should be invited to the conference because of the promise made and because of the way in which the other parties were invited.
  The hon. Member for Leeds, South, who does not appreciate my presence in the House, judging from some of the things he said today—not that I mind a button—says, lounging at the Dispatch Box, "But the Opposition were not invited either." Of course they were not.

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  No promise was given to the Opposition. It was not written into the White Paper that Her Majesty's loyal Opposition would be invited. But it was written into the White Paper that leaders of elected Northern Ireland opinion would be there.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: I was not referring to the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley). The hon. Member is not the only person present from Northern Ireland whom the cap does not fit in this instance. There is another aspect of the matter. I have never understood the hon. Member to approve of the White Paper.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: That is so.
  Mr. Rees: Then why does the hon. Gentleman call in aid one part of the White Paper?
  Rev. Ian Paisley: For the simple reason that I did not write the White Paper. They did. If they want to give promises, then they should stand by them. I did not ask for that promise. If they do not want to stand by that promise, then let them tell the world that they have changed their minds. Let us not have all this talk about sending out invitations. If Her Majesty's loyal Opposition had been promised something in a White Paper on the lines that they would be attending a conference, they would have been fighting hard to be there. They would not let the Government off the hook. They were denying elected representatives the right to be there. That was the folly committed by the British Government.
  Of course we are opposed to the White Paper. The hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) said that we should have taken part in the first talks and that something different might have happened had we attended those talks. But what did we fight an election for? It would have been dishonest for anybody to have said that they rejected the Executive and then to change their minds and surrender their principles.
  The trouble about the talks on the Executive is that they were not only talks about the Executive but concerned policing, the Council of Ireland and other matters. When we asked the Secretary of State to meet us and talk on those matters, we were told "No, you cannot do so."
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  The hon. Member for Leeds, South has said that he would like to see a proper Opposition in the Assembly in a constitutional situation. But what contribution did he make to the 264,000 voters and their wishes? Did he say "It is in the White Paper that these people should have a say"? If he had said that it would have helped the situation. If some of the other minority leaders had said, "We are in the same position as these Loyalists", we would have stood for their rights to be there. But there was complete silence. The noble Alliance Party was conspicuous by its silence.
  Mr. Faulkner did not want the Loyalists to be there, because they would keep an eye on him. He did not want an eye kept on what was going on. The Southern Irish Government could not have gone into the Sunningdale talks to sacrifice their own Constitution because the Southern Constitution says that the matter must be submitted to a plebiscite. Mr. Cosgrave has a majority of two. The Fianna Fail are breathing down his neck. Mr. Cosgrave could not go into those talks and say "We are giving up Articles 2 and 3." Mr. Faulkner told the country that he would get the situation changed, but that did not happen. We heard what Dr. Fitzgerald said when he arrived home. His words on returning from Sunningdale were "The Constitution is not negotiable".
  The Loyalists received an amazing declaration which I have read with great care. The Southern Irish Government said this
  "The Irish Government accepted and solemnly declared that there could be no change in the status of Northern Ireland "—
  there was no definition whatever of what the "status" would be—
  "until a majority of the people of Northern Ireland desired a change in that status."
  It is wonderful that in this day and age Dublin agrees that the majority should rule. The Prime Minister said that it was extraordinary. Mr. Bradford said that it was revolutionary. Mr. Faulkner said that it was dramatic. I must pay tribute to the hon. Member for Belfast, West. He said modestly "We have got all we asked for."
  Is not it strange that the British Government's declaration was different?

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  The British Government solemnly declared that it was, and would remain, their policy to support the wishes of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland. Then they defined what they thought was the present status of Northern Ireland. They said that it was part of the United Kingdom. However, that was not written into the declaration of the Southern Government. They kept away from that because they had Articles 2 and 3 of their Constitution staring them in the face.
  Article 2 says that the Government of the South controls the whole island of Ireland, all the islands off the shore and the territorial seas. Article 3 says that the laws passed by the Southern Government shall have the like area and extent of application.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: The hon. Gentleman is making an interesting case, and he has just told us what Article 2 of the Constitution is. Will he tell us what Article 3 is? I hasten to assure him that this is not a clever intervention. I should like the hon. Gentleman to remind the House.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I have already said what it is. Article 2 claims jurisdiction over the whole of Ireland, and Article 3 claims that the laws passed in their parliament should be the laws of the whole of Ireland.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: I have now read it. As I understand it, what it says is that the 32-county aspect does not come into being at present. It puts it off to the future.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: It is clear to me that the hon. Gentleman has not really read it. The words to which we object are the words "without prejudice". It says that the laws passed by the parliament are without prejudice the law for the whole country. That is what is obnoxious to the people of Northern Ireland, and that is why we want Articles 2 and 3 removed. Unionists have always opposed both those articles because they stand or fall together. It is not right to say that it is just Article 2 to which we take objection.
  I want to be fair to the Southern politicians. They could not remove those two articles. The Prime Minister of the
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  Republic could not say at Sunningdale "We shall change the Constitution". He could promise to submit it to the electorate, but he would not have authority to change it. Everyone should know that.
  There are two other matters which this House should remember. The first of them concerns extradition. We have heard a great of talk about murder. No one in this House honestly believes that members of the RUC or other witnesses from Northern Ireland would be safe going to a court in the Republic in order to give evidence against a person charged with an alleged IRA crime. This House changed the law of Northern Ireland so that witnesses did not even need to be called in the new courts in Northern Ireland. If it is felt unwise to call witnesses in our own courts, how can we say that they may be called in the Republic when IRA men are being tried? That was the argument put from the Government Front Bench in Committee. Even the Attorney-General told us that. We were told that witnesses are so intimidated in Northern Ireland that their statements can be taken and they need not appear in court.
  We have been told that we need not worry—that IRA murderers will be tried in Southern Ireland. We are concerned not only with murderers, but with firearms offences and explosives. They are not even mentioned. We used to be able to extradite people who had committed murders which had no political overtones. Now we cannot even do that. This proposal applies to all murderers. That is in the Sunningdale agreement. One needs to read that important document very carefully. Every Member from Northern Ireland should study it closely. The machinery proposed in it will affect the lives of everybody in Northern Ireland if the Council of Ireland comes into effect. That is a serious matter.
  The order that we are to pass later excludes Schedules 2 and 3. Schedule 3 deals with the establishment, organisation and control of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and any other police force, the police authority for Northern Ireland and traffic wardens. We should notice carefully that it includes the police authority. That is an exempted matter. The police authority is to be negotiated by the new Ulster

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  Executive and the Council of Ireland, but that would be completely contrary to the order that we are to be asked to pass tonight. When will the Minister deliver another order to vary Schedule 3? That is an important matter.
  We were told in the White Paper—it does not really matter as evidently it is to be torn up; it is only a scrap of paper now—that Members of the Assembly would have the right to serve on the police authority. That was clearly promised. That again was taken away at Sunningdale. Instead of the Assembly, only the Executive is to have a say, in consultation with the Council of Ireland and Ministers from the South. Apparently 264,000 voters in Northern Ireland are to have no say, yet Ministers from a hostile Republic are. We can now say in this House that the Republic has been hostile. How many warrants have the RUC tried to serve in Southern Ireland and how many have been refused? We know the reason. A High Court, judge has stated that murder is a political offence and that we cannot extradite murderers, or alleged murderers, to use the proper term, because no man is guilty until the offence is proved against him. Extradition was not dealt with at the Sunningdale talks.
  This House must not bluff or allow itself to think that detention without trial in Northern Ireland is over. Detention without trial is only just beginning in Northern Ireland. Why should the authorities want to enlarge the cages, the prisons, if they are going to wind down internment? We do not go in and out of these prisons with our eyes closed. We see new compounds being built. The British Government have an obligation to provide proper prisons. It is a disgrace to have men behind wires. Putting men behind wires, into cages, has a psychological effect on them.
  I was opposed to internment even when the Protestants were for it. I can say that because I have been consistent. But the Protestants will be going in, too. They are being lined up. For all I know, this speaker will be going in with the rest. [Laughter.] Hon. Members may laugh.
  The British Government have threatened the people of Northern Ireland with economic sanctions because
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  their leaders refuse to bow to something that they do not like. Often if something is widely accepted, then it is the law. But this is not widely accepted. If I demonstrate to the House that it is not widely accepted, what will be done? Another little Bill will be brought in deleting that part. So it will go on and on.
  Mr. Wellbeloved: Will the hon. Gentleman take comfort from the historic fact that in British colonial history tension invariably is the prelude to negotiations?
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Yes. I should like to see the Northern Ireland Assembly turned into a constituent Assembly for a round-table discussion by all parties. I should like the British Government to come in, not to tell us what we should do but to help us in the decisions that we hope would be arrived at. That is not an easy proposition. But a coalition forced on people can never work; a coalition freely entered into can work.
  The House will pass the Bill. Many things will be said about myself and my hon. Friends. I read in a newspaper today that Loyalists disrupted the Assembly. There was a total and absolute untruth in The Times today, because the Speaker adjourned the Northern Ireland Assembly and there was no uproar in the Assembly. Not only did he adjourn the Assembly but he brought in the police to prevent Members of the Assembly going about their lawful duties in the Assembly. We have all these things with which to contend.
  Mr. Orme: The hon. Gentleman talks about being criticised for disrupting the Assembly. He has made many statements in that regard. I have a copy of an Irish Times report of a sermon that he made in his own church, in which he said that last Wednesday had been a small taste of what Loyalists could do in the House, and that if a few shouts could stop business for a day, what would happen
  "when we brought in the big guns."
  To what was the hon. Gentleman referring then?
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Will the hon. Gentleman read the rest of it, the comment after "big guns"?
  Mr. Orme: The hon. Gentleman has asked me to read this interesting tract.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Just to read what comes immediately after the words "big guns".
  Mr. Orme: The report says
  "Dr. Paisley added quickly that he was not to be taken literallly."
  But that is the reporter; the substance is what I have quoted.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: The hon. Gentleman thought that he was doing a great thing, but why did he not read the complete quotation? I said that it was not to be taken literally, and that is what is in the report. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, as does every hon. Member, that he is not prepared to accept without question what is reported of him. He would be the very person who would object to that. He should have read the whole quotation.
  If the British Government will not allow the representatives of 264,000 people to have their legitimate say and to have an opportunity to help in the decisions that shape the future of their country when they allow representatives of a foreign country to have such a say, the British Government are asking for trouble and will receive trouble. The people of Northern Ireland will say to their elected representatives "Your way is no good. Your talk of Parliament and procedure is no good. It has got you nowhere, and we shall go another way."
  Mr. Orme: The hon. Gentleman really ought to answer the Question. Will he and his hon. Friends try to wreck the Assembly? I have heard statements on television to the effect that the newly elected Executive will not be allowed to go to the rostrum to put its point of view. Is the hon. Gentleman advocating that? He has a duty to answer that question. What does he mean by "big guns"? I understand that he does not mean guns in the physical sense, but what does the phrase mean? The hon. Gentleman has just made a long speech criticising the Executive and the White Paper, advancing constitutional arguments against them, and then talking about wrecking. What does he mean?
  Rev. Ian Paisley: That was a very long intervention, but I shall bear with it
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  gladly. It is a pity that the hon. Gentleman does not read the full quotation. However, I shall answer him.
  The House will not accept what I say, but hon. Members will learn that the House cannot reject 264,000 voters and say that all is well. The members of the Loyalist groups in the Assembly have only one way open to them, and that is to use their power within the Assembly to obstruct the business of the Assembly.
  I have seen obstruction in this House. I have also seen Members of this House filibustering. This House has a certain reputation, but if something happens in the Assembly—that is terrible ! I have seen scuffles in this House and have heard Members, including the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) using very strong words about Acts of Parliament, about the Industrial Relations Act and what they will do about it. I would not say that they were threats, but they were political engagements. If this Parliament says, "We will deal with the Loyalist leaders, we will get them removed from the House, we will pass Standing Orders so that they will not be able to do what they desire to do", that will be all right. The elected representatives will have been removed, but what will this Parliament have then? It will have an entire cutting off of that community from any legitimate communication in the political field. Is that what this House wants? Does it want the opposition to this Act outside a locked door? That is what we are heading for.
  We are simply asking to be heard, in the same way as we asked to be heard at Sunningdale, but that door was closed on us. Then we were told by the Prime Minister on television that we were invited. I spoke to the Secretary of State, and he knows what he told me. He said, "Your interpretation of my letter is absolutely correct. You are not invited to be a participating member in this conference. You are invited only to appear as a deputation. Give your views and then leave." We did not want to be a deputation. We wanted to have our rightful say, but we were not given our say. This House will pass this Bill, the people will not be heard and their elected representatives will not be listened to.
  Mr. Orme: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman again. He is very courteous to give way, but this is an important point. He said that they will not be heard. The hon. Gentleman will remember that in the previous debate in this House I said that he ought to speak to the politicians in the Republic and to the British Government, because he has a point of view and he should be listened to. I was talking then in the context of the Council of Ireland, which will be set up when the new Assembly is working, to which he will be able to go with his colleagues. The fact is that he is not a member of the Executive or of the Executive-designate, just as I am not a member of the Cabinet of this Government, but I can put my views in this House, as he does, and as he can in the Assembly. The hon. Gentleman wants to have his cake and eat it at the same time. He is in opposition, but he wants to be in the Executive. He does not want to go to Sunningdale, but he does want to go to Sunningdale. What exactly does he want to do?
  Rev. Ian Paisley: The hon. Gentleman should try to be fair. There is no Government in Northern Ireland. There cannot be a Government in Northern Ireland till we have passed this Bill. There is no such body as an Executive; it is an Executive-designate. So the hon. Gentleman cannot say that there is an Opposition and a Government. The trouble with this House is that Members who are not Members for Northern Ireland try to tell Northern Ireland Members, who are trying to apply themselves to what is essential, what to do. They should not get up and say, "You want to be in the Government". I just want to be a back bencher, and I have always made that perfectly clear. I am not interested in being in the Executive. I was asked by the former Secretary of State, and so was Mr. Craig, whether we would serve on the Executive. We said, "No, we oppose it".
  I do not think that, in negotiations for an executive, one is entitled to start the bargaining and the horse-trading about policing, detention, law reform and other matters about which we are concerned. We should have been entitled to go into those talks and hear what was in the Government's mind, but we were not to go. There is no Government in Northern Ire-
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  land, and there is no Opposition. But, eventually, the Government of Northern Ireland will take their places on the benches which we at present occupy as the largest party in the Assembly, and the Opposition will go to the opposite side, under the Standing Orders which I helped to draw up.
  At least the hon. Member for Salford, West might try to be fair. There is no Government in Northern Ireland, and there cannot be unless we pass the Bill. There is no such thing as an Executive. It is an Executive-designate. That is no Government at all. It cannot be suggested, therefore, that there is either a Government or an Opposition. The trouble with this House is that hon. Members who do not represent Northern Ireland try to overrule the Northern Ireland MPs who are seeking to apply themselves to the problems. The hon. Member says that I want to be in the Goverment and that I do not want to be in the Government. All I want is to be a back bencher. He might be interested to know that I have been at more meetings of the Assembly and have given more time to it than any hon. Member. I have served on the Standing Orders Committee of the Assembly, and I know what I am talking about. If people say they want to wreck the Assembly—
  Mr. Orme: You said it yourself.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I did not say it, and the hon. Member cannot find a record of my saying it. I said I wanted to use the Assembly to bring down the Executive, and that has always been my point of view. Hon. Members can read the Irish Times as often as they like but I know what I said; I am not afraid of what I said and I will stand by it. I go further and I say to the House "Pass the Bill". It has passed many things. It has passed regulations about internment and detainment. It has done away with juries and has brought in one-judge trials. Still the war goes on, and until the people in Northern Ireland are allowed to have a real say in their own affairs there will not be peace. We might as well be plain about that. The House may say to the people of Northern Ireland that it will ignore them and that they will not be listened to. Very well, but the people of Northern Ireland will have to find

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  a way to convince the Government that they will not accept that approach. One of my hon. Friends said he wished the House had been prepared to give more Members to Northern Ireland. However, the House would not even give us that.
  I agree with the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. McManus) in one respect. He does not agree with me in many things but I, too, believe that the issue should be put to the people of the United Kingdom. They must be asked whether they want Ulster or not. If the answer is goodbye to us, that is what it would have to be, but it would not mean a united Ireland to the majority of the people in Northern Ireland.
  9.38 p.m.
  Mr. Gerard Fitt: It is not entirely by design that the debate has gone the way it has. We recognised that certain hon. Members would continue with their opposition to the constitutional proposals which have been coming forward since direct rule was imposed in March last year. Since that time Northern Ireland has experienced very severe agony and tragedy. It was in the light of what was happening then—the deaths that were taking place of the soldiers, the policemen, the UDA men, the old and the young, the girls and the boys—that politicians who had hitherto bitterly opposed in ideology and in practice what was put forward tried in a last desperate effort to bring some form of sanity back to Northern Ireland.
  I recognise more than most that for three centuries Northern Ireland has been divided. For three centuries the minority and the majority have been standing in eyeball to eyeball confrontation, both of them claiming total victory and saying that they would accept nothing less. In those circumstances it was impossible for one section of that community to achieve total victory. In all the negotiations and treaties that have ever taken place in Anglo-Irish history nothing even approximating this situation has ever been taken into consideration. Negotiations were between Dublin and London. One section of the community claimed total and absolute domination over the other.
  In view of that situation many politicians, including Mr. Faulkner, myself
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  and the new political force, the Alliance Party, last year decided in all conscience to try, without guaranteeing success, to prove to the communities that they both had legitimate aspirations. No one could do it overnight and, without their consent, attempt to change their way of life. We were conscious that it would take a great deal of persuasion, but we knew that we must try. It had never been tried before.
  After all the arguments and bitter fights which we had with the British Government under direct rule the stage was reached when the June election of last year was to take place. The election was fought on the Constitution Bill which, within a few days of the election, became enacted. The SDLP said that it would fight the election on the terms of the Constitution Bill. The pledged Unionists said exactly the same, as did the Alliance Party.
  The hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) has given the election results. He has said that 162,000 people voted for Mr. Faulkner's brand of Unionism, that 65,000 people voted for the Alliance Party and that 184,000 people voted for the SDLP, making a total of 311,000. On the opposite side of the fence there were the Vanguard Unionists led by Mr. Craig, the unpledged Unionists led by Mr. West and Mr. Taylor, and the Democratic Unionist Party led by the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley). They received a total vote of 264,000 as against the 311,000 of the parties which said that they were fighting under the Constitution Bill and would attempt, with many reservations, which were expressed then and are expressed now, to bring the Constitution Bill into being and would try to evolve a system of government which would act in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland, Catholics and Protestants.
  Those parties said that they would pay due respect to the two legitimate aspirations which are contained within the Northern Irish community. It must be conceded that the majority in Northern Ireland wishes to maintain its link with the United Kingdom. However, there is a sizable minority which gives its allegiance to the eventual reunification of Ireland.

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  No one would in any circumstances, recognising the realities of the hostilities which have existed for three centuries, attempt to beat one or other of those aspirations into submission. It was with that in mind that the parties decided that they would try to engage in talks which would evolve a system of government which would allow those aspirations to continue. It was hoped that a system would be evolved which would ensure that no one would be bombed, bullied, killed or coerced into accepting a system of government which brought into question their nationality or their way of life.
  On 5th October the then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland brought the parties together. In fact, he did not bring them together or attempt to do so. He did not whip them into submission. He did not say, "You must come here and agree to our proposals." The parties went voluntarily. I believe that Mr. Faulkner and his brand of Unionists went voluntarily. The Alliance Party certainly went there of its own volition. It must not be forgotten that for the first time in three centuries of Irish history Catholic and Protestant representatives—those people believing in a united Ireland and those who wanted to retain a United Kingdom Ulster—voluntarily discussed where they disagreed and on what issues they could agree. They asked themselves, "What cogent steps can be taken that will bring to an end the terrible massacre of the innocents that has been taking place here since 1969?"
  That was the one idea which motivated us all. We found that Brian Faulkner was not the detestable bigot I had often thought him to be. I hope that he thinks the same about me and my party colleagues. He has put himself on record as saying that, throughout these negotiations, he had heard more constructive talk in relation to the Northern Ireland community than he had heard in 25 years as a Minister in a Unionist Government. That, I hope, was an admission and a concession, and I felt exactly the same throughout the whole period of the talks.
  It was then decided that, having accepted the fact that neither community could claim total victory over the other, we would engage in a power-sharing exercise, that people of both communities
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  would be in a position to participate in the running of their own country. I accept the fact that I am an Ulsterman, and Belfast man and an Irishman as well. In the country I was born and reared in, I would like to think that I could contribute at least one small thing to try to ease the terrible strain and distress under which so many people have been forced to live. I have been in opposition to the Unionist Party for very many years and I would be the last to try to put a restriction on anyone such as the hon. Member for Antrim, North, to try to limit his freedom of speech.
  Having arrived at a successful conclusion to the power sharing, it was decided that the Ministries would be shared with what had been known as the Opposion, the minority Catholic community. John Hume, my colleague, was accepted as Minister of Commerce, and another colleague, Austin Currie, as Minister of Housing and Local Government. I myself became Deputy Chief Executive, with Ivan Cooper, also of the SDLP, as Minister of Community Relations. Each of us was conscious that we were entering into a new era, trying something out which had never happened in Ireland before.
  We accepted the fact that many people would treat us with great distrust, but I give as an example my colleague, Paddy Devlin, the Minister of Health and Social Services. He is one of my closest colleagues, and I say again what I have said here and in Northern Ireland, that he is a man of great humanity and compassion, a man who wants to show the Protestant majority of Northern Ireland that he is not a bigot and that he wants to help each and every one of that community who needs help just as he wants to help people within the Catholic community.
  Having agreed on how the Ministries should be allocated, we took it upon ourselves to show our sincere good will to the Protestant community, which has many real fears and suspicions about me and my colleagues and about the political parties I have been associated with throughout the years. I accept that. I accept that many people in the majority community have a sincere distrust of me, but we believe that there is only one way to allay the fear and distrust, and that is to let them see that we in the Executive

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  are acting in their interests. There are many people in the Catholic community who have a sincere distrust of Brian Faulkner because of the tragedy and disaster of internment, because we have had in Northern Ireland one single Unionist-ascendant Government for 50 years.
  When one comes to the question of the democratic process, so often alluded to by the hon. Member for Antrim, North, one tries to put an interpretation on what is democratic and what is anti-democratic. What he says is anti-democratic. It means, "I do not like it so I will not accept it." That is what it means in his terminology and to his way of thinking.
  If it does not suit him and the people he represents or is associated with at present then he does not like it. Less than 24 hours after the announcement that agreement had been reached on a power-sharing Executive a dastardly attempt was made on the life of my colleague Austin Currie, at Dungannon, when machine guns and other forms of firearms were used, either in an attempt to kill him or the policemen guarding his home.
  That very night the Provisional IRA issued a statement saying "We will wreck it". The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley), who I would have hoped would have remained in the House, at the time issued a statement saying "We will bust it". Here we have the two extremes reacting in exactly the same way to a last attempt to bring peace to Northern Ireland. The Provisional IRA wants to claim total victory over the Protestant community in Northern Ireland while the hon. Member for Antrim, North and his cohorts want to claim total victory over the Catholic minority there.
  I was delighted to hear today that some who had opposed direct rule last year have changed their minds. Some who spoke vociferously against direct rule have been able to see what has been happening since then and today they support the Government. I was impressed by the speech of the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr). His sentiments conveyed to me that he was fearful that he might be submerged overnight into a united Ireland. Let me give him this assurance. If that were to
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  be so I would object to it. One of the greatest things that came out of the Sunningdale talks was a recognition of the two aspirations in this document, which will in future years prove to be one of the most historic documents ever agreed to by Irishmen in the island of Ireland.
  Let us not forget that the three Northern Ireland parties—the Alliance Party, the Unionist Party and the SDLP—were the most important factors in these talks. We also had the able assistance of the British Government, and no one can say that, by any standards, I am a supporter of a Tory Government. No one could ever charge me with that. We also had the assistance of the Government in the South. Here for the first time we had the Northern Irish community spokesmen, the Irish Government and the British Government.
  The communiqué says that at present the majority in Northern Ireland wants to maintain its link with Britain. That is guaranteed. If at any time in the future, and the British Government have committed themselves to this, there is a majority in Northern Ireland in favour of becoming part of the Republic, the British Government will take no steps to impede this wish but will support it. Here we have the two aspirations totally catered for and respected. No one needs to lose any sleep, to rampage up and down the country instilling fear and dissidence into the minds of the people of Northern Ireland.
  We have been able today to see the true face and sentiments of the hon. Member for Antrim, North. That man has tried to project in this House and through this House to the British public an image of moderation. That is not the case in Northern Ireland. One has only to be with him in the Assembly, as I was yesterday and the Wednesday before, to see the real Mr. Paisley or Dr. Paisley or whatever he likes to be called in Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) a moment ago quoted from an article written in the Irish Times. It was an accurate quotation. The hon. Member for Antrim, North is going around every town, village and hamlet in Northern Ireland preaching a gospel of fear and hatred. He gave a sermon in his church which said that the gallows

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  had been prepared for him but he would not be going to Heaven yet.
  I voted against capital punishment in both Stormont and in this House. I did not think capital punishment existed. But that is the sort of rhetoric that the hon. Gentleman uses. As I have said, he stated that he was not going to Heaven yet. A moment ago the hon. Gentleman castigated the hon. Member for Belfast, North and asked him whether he had some infallible knowledge of what the people in Northern Ireland wanted. There is a rail strike at the moment with people not knowing how to get from Victoria to Southampton, but the hon. Gentleman has no doubt about where he is going and whom he is going to take with him.
  We again had pandemonium at Stormont yesterday. Last Wednesday in Stormont we had the most horrific scenes which have ever taken place in any democratically-elected Parliament. The hon. Member for Belfast, North posed the question "What happens if we do not get the opportunity to express ourselves?" I repeat that I am on the hon. Gentleman's side. I do not wish to deny anyone, particularly an elected representative, the right to express his opinion. But last week, when a democratic vote was carried in the Assembly, members of the Loyalist coalition began to kick and brutally assault members of the official Unionist Party. The hon. Member for Antrim, North was standing at the Dispatch Box when this occurred and he did not bat an eyelid. He did not turn round to see what was happening or to discover the reason for the noise because the whole thing had been planned before the Assembly meeting.
  Yet the hon. Member for Antrim, North has the audacity to come to this House and to talk about democracy. Later that evening, when the Press and television were very concerned about what had happened in the Assembly, the hon. Member appeared on one television channel saying that he did not know anything about it, that he happened to be at the Dispatch Box making a point of order and did not know that some members of the Loyalist coalition had attacked Unionist Members, while at the same time one of his colleagues, Mr. Kennedy Lindsay, appeared on another channel saying "The whole thing was organised because we organised it." A member of the Loyalist Opposi-
  776
  tion kicked a former Cabinet Minister, Mr. Herbert Kirk.
  When we went to the Assembly at Stormont yesterday afternoon, we were told that the hon. Member for Antrim, North had been to the Speaker and to the Clerk the previous day and said that he proposed to move a motion which would call the House back into session today to discuss the Sunningdale agreement. I should have thought that if it had been known that the Sunningdale agreement and three orders were to be discussed in this House today it was the duty of elected Members of this House to be here. The hon. Member for Antrim, North wanted the agreement to be debated in Northern Ireland instead, and it will be debated there tomorrow. He told the Clerk that if it was not debated he should expect trouble.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Fitt: No.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Fitt: No.
  Mr. Speaker: Order.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: The hon. Gentleman is quoting what the Clerk said—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is not giving way. Mr. Fitt?
  Rev. Ian Paisley: On a point of order—
  It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
  Ordered,
  That the Northern Ireland Constitution (Amendment) Bill may be proceeded with at this day's Sitting, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. Rossi.]
  Question again proposed, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for an hon. Member to report to the House what the Clerk of another Assembly said, when what the Clerk is alleged to have said has already been publicly denied.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: Further to that point of order. The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) has not been in

  777
  the Chamber to hear the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt), and there is probably a good reason for that. I appeal to my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West to set a good example to the new Assembly and allow the hon. Member for Antrim, North to speak. We might then find a different situation in the Assembly tomorrow.
  Mr. Fitt: That is highly unlikely—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I must rule on the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley). It is a question of content and not a matter for the Chair. Mr. Fitt.
  Mr. Fitt: I give way.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I have been out of the Chamber because HANSARD wanted my notes. It means no disrespect to the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Fitt). I always sit through the speeches, and I have been here longer today than has the hon. Gentleman. When an hon. Member is talking about another hon. Member it is right that he should give way instead of waving his hands.
  Mr. Speaker: I think the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) has given way.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I have finished.
  Mr. Fitt: It was recognised that when agreement had been reached on the formation of a power-sharing Executive, and if there were to be successful conclusions to the tripartite talks, every extremist in Ireland would be in total opposition to the agreement. I know exactly what I mean by "extremist". The people who plant bombs and shoot soldiers, police and civilians are extremists, but just as dangerous are those who deliberately incite fear and hatred. They are perhaps more responsible than those who pull the trigger or plant a bomb. Violent words cause people to become involved.
  Again I quote, within the hearing of the hon. Member for Antrim, North, from his sermon. We must realise the drama, the silence and the atmosphere in which these words were uttered:
  "If some Sunday I am not here in this pulpit—if I'm not here to climb these stairs, don't believe any frame-up that says the IRA
  778
  killed me, or a Protestant extremist. It'll be a British agent's bullet."
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that no less a person than the City Police Commissioner in Northern Ireland, Mr. Bradley, in my church last night told me that I would have an escort to take me to the airport today. In the presence of a witness, I said "What about British intelligence and their threat on my life?" He said, "Mr. Paisley, that is a very big question indeed." I ask the hon. Member for Belfast, West a question. Would the hon. Member approve of a young British soldier being brought from Germany to Northern Ireland and told to shoot a person in Northern Ireland, and after he had shot the person, being sent back to Germany? Is that what he approves of? I do not.
  Mr. Fitt: I am delighted that the hon. Member has come back into the Chamber, because now we can hear just a little of what he has been saying up and down the length and breadth of Northern Ireland.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: It is true.
  Mr. Fitt: Is it any wonder that members of the Loyalist community now feel that they have to resort to arms to protect their interests?
  I have already said that when the Executive was formed and when the tripartite talks took place they would meet with all sorts of opposition by men actually engaged in physical violence and those who were making speeches that incited them. I remember that on the day after the Executive was formed the Provisional IRA issued threats against members of the SDLP. I said then, and I say now, and I will say tomorrow and the next day, that I am not to be intimidated by threats, from wherever they may come. Steps have been taken now that have never been taken before, and, irrespective of whether I or any of my colleagues are there, that rule will be continued, people will try desperately to continue that rule and they will eventually achieve success.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. McManus) was associated with the criticism that the SDLP was resorting to the RUC to protect it against these threats.

  779
  I thought to myself "That type of criticism is not completely unexpected from that source." But I was amazed to be told by a reliable source that he himself had exactly the same type of protection. This shows the complete and utter dishonesty.
  This afternoon I came into the House, and in passing through—I do not know whether I shall be breaking a confidence or abusing the privilege of the House—I saw the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Mrs. McAliskey), the hon. Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder), the hon. Member for Antrim, North and the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone, and I thought to myself "It is a Government in exile." They were all sitting there, all plotting how to defeat the arrangements that had been made in Northern Ireland—
  Rev. Ian Paisley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for an hon. Member to say that in one of the rooms of this House when hon. Members were sitting and having a social cup of tea together they were plotting to bring down the Government? Now that he has given way, will the hon. Member now do what he refused on television to do and call upon the people who sent him here to support the Army and the police in their fight against terrorism? That question he refused to answer on television: will he answer it now?
  Mr. Speaker: On the point of order about people plotting in committees to bring down Governments, that has been going on for a very long time.
  Rev. Ian Paisley Rev. Ian Paisley rose—
  Mr. Fitt: I thought it was rather strange, and it should be placed on the record that this is the type of contribution by this type of individual to try to bring peace to Northern Ireland. I cannot refrain—
  Mrs. McAliskey: Will the hon. Member give way?
  Mr. Fitt: No. The hon. Lady has a great propensity for coming into the House and making her speech and then interjecting in everyone else's speech. I have decided not to let her in—
  Mrs. McAliskey: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. While it may be a long-
  780
  standing practice for persons to have been known to plot to bring down Governments, is it in order for the hon. Member to imply in his speech that I was personally involved in some kind of extra-parliamentary or unparliamentary behaviour in this House and then not permit me the opportunity of clarifying the position?
  Mr. Speaker: This is a very difficult area in which to involve the Chair because all sorts of motives are imputed. I think it is wrong to impute to another hon. Member a criminal motive. I am not sure that such a motive was imputed. If it it not a criminal motive, then I think that it is in order. But perhaps the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) might consider giving way to the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Mrs. McAliskey).
  Mr. Fitt: May I say, Mr. Speaker—
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have always understood in this House that if hon. Members went into a certain place and happened to drink tea with Opposition Members, that was not a matter to be commented on in this House. I should like your ruling, Sir. Have we now to segregate ourselves when we go into the Tea Room and not drink tea with those to whom we are politically opposed?
  Mrs. McAliskey: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was concerned not with the question of whom I may or may not drink tea with—and, to my great shame, I have often drunk something stronger with the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt)—but I was concerned to raise a point of order on whether the hon. Member for Belfast, West was implying certain things in his latter remarks—namely, that persons were sitting together, not plotting to bring down Governments, but attempting to prevent the restoration of peace in Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman implied "This is what we get with this type of person while we are trying to bring peace to Northern Ireland." He implied that because we were opposing him we were plotting methods of furthering violence in Northern Ireland. Is that in order?
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. If hon. Members of this House want to say that other

  781
  hon. Members of this House are plotting certain things while others are trying to bring peace to Northern Ireland, then this should not be done across the Floor of the House but should be stated publicly outside the House.
  Mr. Speaker: I hope I shall be allowed to have my say. First, this matter involves a question of taste. There are certain places in the House where hon. Members meet one another, and it is a convention of the House that one does not refer to conversations which take place in those places. That is a convention; it is not a rule of order. I cannot control it; it is a convention of the House. I do not think the Chair can be involved unless there is an imputation of some criminal activity. If that were to happen I should certainly come in and make certain that that was not allowed. Such an allegation would have to be introduced in a motion. Those are our rules, and such suggestions cannot be thrown out on one side or the other as interventions in a debate. Now, Mr. Fitt, can we get on?
  Mr. Fitt: You will be aware, Mr. Speaker, that I made no allegation of a criminal offence against anybody. I was saying that particular individuals had expressed their opposition to the constitutional proposals. The hon. Member for Mid-Ulster, not for the first time, made a completely destructive speech. She is against the negotiations that took place in Northern Ireland on the creation of an Executive; she is against what happened at Sunningdale during the tripartite discussions. The hon. Lady agrees with the hon. Member for Down, South when he expresses his great fear that the Loyalist community in Northern Ireland has been sold out by the British Government. Since that sentiment comes from the hon. Member for Down, South and the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster, this surely must implant a suspicion in the minds of people who are fearful about their whole future, and it could—I put it no higher than that—lead those people to have recourse to violence.
  The hon. Lady goes on to say that she wants a united Ireland. But she does not like the type of united Ireland which may be emerging from the tripartite talks. She does not like the Gardai. She does not
  782
  like the RUC. That comes as no surprise to us. The hon. Lady does not like anyone. We all recognise that. But again I ask her what does she want: what will she put in place of the present tragedy which exists in Northern Ireland? There is no coherent or sensible answer forthcoming.
  Then the hon. Lady did not openly attack by name my colleague Paddy Devlin. But again all the aspersions were cast, and again we had the full condemnation of a man of integrity and compassion who hitherto has been unknown in a Northern Ireland Assembly, Cabinet or any type of Ministry. The hon. Lady talks of Mr. Devlin's credibility. If anyone's credibility has been called in question today, last week and ever since the day she was first elected to this House, it is that of the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster, and no doubt the electorate in Northern Ireland will soon have an opportunity to voice their opinions.
  In the elections in June of this year, the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster had an opportunity to put forward her candidates. The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone had an opportunity to put forward his candidates. Neither of them did so. At least the hon. Member for Antrim, North put forward his candidates, as did Mr. Craig and Mr. West, and they won a significant number of seats—27 all told. At least they fought the election. Their total poll, according to the hon. Member for Antrim, North, was 264,000. Whether he speaks for all those 264,000 I am in some doubt, but at least he has something to say.
  The hon. Member for Mid-Ulster and the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone did not fight those elections. They do no know who supports them. Last June the electorate of Northern Ireland were given an opportunity to vote for members of the SDLP. They returned them with the second largest elected party in Northern Ireland. It may be that the decisions that we have taken will be contradicted when another election takes place in Northern Ireland. No one can say—
  Mrs. McAliskey: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Fitt: No. But at least we can say that we have the support of a significant section of the electorate.

  783
  The hon. Member for Antrim, North put a question to me, and I believe that I should answer it here rather than in the middle of a television duel. The SDLP has made it clear from its very inception that it is opposed to all forms of violence in Northern Ireland—the killing of soldiers, the killing of policemen, the killing of UDR men and the killing of men, women and children in the indiscriminate way that it has been carried on.
  I am not selective in my condemnation of violence and killings. I deplore every killing which has taken place in Northern Ireland. The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone talks in a qualified, ambiguous way in answer to a question put to him by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South, out he does not have the guts to condemn all forms of killing. I have no hesitation in doing so.
  The hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone talked about a gesture from the British Government because it was getting so near Christmas and the season of goodwill. When I left here on Monday after the Sunningdale talks, a young Catholic in the British Army was shot dead in my constituency. I condemn whoever was responsible. A policeman was killed within 24 hours of that incident. I condemn whoever was responsible.
  I do not want to see internment. I do not want to see anyone interned without trial in Northern Ireland. As for those who are in prison in Britain at the moment, I do not want to see their relatives put to great inconvenience and hardship because they have not the financial wherewithal to visit them. I support their removal to Northern Ireland because I know that their presence here causes great hardship and inconvenience to their relatives. However, there are an awful lot of people throughout Britain who will experience the same inconvenience when they visit the graves of their sons, husbands, fathers, mothers and daughters who have been killed in Northern Ireland in the past two or three years.
  I am not selective in my condemnation. I have made it perfectly clear that every loss of life in Northern Ireland was an unnecessary spilling of blood. That is why I have decided to advance
  784
  to the Executive. It means no personal gain to me.
  The hon. Member for Antrim. North was reported in a local newspaper recently as condemning Brian Faulkner for going for a post on the Executive at £9,000 a year. The hon. Gentleman is in no position to criticise the salary received by any elected Member in Northern Ireland.
  Again, many people throughout Britain heard the hon. Gentleman on television say that the Speaker of the Assembly was not at liberty to anticipate what may happen and, therefore, he had no right to adjourn the Assembly. He went on to say "If I said that I was going to punch Brian Falkner on the nose, the Speaker would not be empowered to do anything until I had actually done it."
  Knowing Brian Falkner and the hon. Member for Antrim, North, I should not be prepared to take any big bets on who would win such a contest. I would not lay my money heavily on the hon. Member for Antrim, North. We have heard him before bullying and lambasting the Opposition, but when it came to the fray it was a lot of innocent supporters who were caught and thrown into gaol.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it right for the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) to imply that I was responsible for having people put into prison and was not prepared to go to prison myself? Surely it is a criminal insinuation that I was responsible for getting those people into trouble and put into prison. I have been in prison twice. I would not ask any of my supporters to do anything that I was not prepared to do myself, as everybody knows. The hon. Gentleman has implied that I did something criminal that got people put into prison and that I then washed my hands of them. That is what he implied and I want a ruling on it.
  Mr. Fitt Mr. Fitt rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Mr. Fitt, on that point of order.
  Mr. Fitt: You will notice, Mr. Speaker, the truth, half-truth and play on words at which the hon. Member for Antrim, North is so good. It is because of his use of this type of language, the truth, half-truth and incitement—
  Rev. Ian Paisley Rev. Ian Paisley rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) raised a point of order on whether he had been accused of commiting a criminal offence. I called the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) on that point of order to see whether he had anything to add.
  Mr. Fitt: I have never mentioned the words "criminal offence". Again, this is the interpretation that has been put upon what I said by the hon. Member for Antrim, North.
  I should like to draw to the attention of the House the fact that when the former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland was in Stormont Castle on one occasion the hon. Member for Antrim, North walked in and said "I am here to tell you not to remove the statue of Lord Carson". The former Secretary of State looked at him in amazement. It was the first that he had ever heard of this.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Fitt: Then, Sir—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Paisley, on a point of order.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member for Belfast, West does not need to mention a criminal offence. I put it to you, Sir, that he suggested—he did not suggest; he affirmed—that I was responsible for actions that got people put into prison. That was his accusation. He now says that he did not mention a criminal offence. It must have been criminal if people get put into prison. I am asking for a ruling on that point now.
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has asked me to rule on what might appear to be the almost normal consequences of an Irish debate. I do not think that Speakers in this House have ever been very successful in deciding on these matters. I distinctly recollect reading various accounts of what has happened here during debates on Irish problems. I do not think that Westminster has been awfully good in this respect. However, I must rule as best I can.
  786
  I do not think that there was an allegation against the hon. Member for Antrim, North which I should describe as being beyond the rules of order. I will not pronounce on the content of any remarks that have been made. I have always maintained that position. I respectfully suggest that we get on with the debate on the Second Reading of the Bill and the various orders.
  Mr. Fitt: What the hon. Gentleman was really trying to do was to sidetrack me from what I was telling the House. He said to the former Secretary of State, "I am telling you not to remove the statue "—
  Rev. Ian Paisley: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. That is a diabolical lie.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. It is the rule of the House that hon. Members do not say a thing like that. It must be put differently, whether it is described as a terminological inexactitude, or whatever it may be. But what the hon. Gentleman has said is not a form of language which, according to the precedents, I am permitted to allow. Perhaps the hon. Member will put the matter differently, so that we may return to the debate.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: The hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) has been telling the House about an alleged conversation with the former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, when the hon. Gentleman was not a party to that conversation. Even if I was with the Secretary of State, the hon. Gentleman would not know what I said. I must emphasise to the House that I shall not allow any hon. Member to speak of my private conversations and put a gloss on them when he could not possibly know what the conversation was. I withdraw my statement, but the hon. Gentleman is totally inaccurate. He could not know what took place between myself and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in a private conversation.
  Mr. Speaker: I am obliged to the hon. Member for withdrawing what he said. Perhaps we can now look to the future a little more than the past.
  Mr. Fitt: I thought it right to draw the attention of the House to this and other incidents.
  I believe that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland want to give

  787
  these constitutional proposals a chance to work. It is because of the utterances of the hon. Member for Antrim, North and those who support him that the whole situation may be thrown into severe jeopardy. The future of Northern Ireland and its people is far more important than the political reputation of myself or any other politician, including the hon. Member for Antrim, North, in Northern Ireland.
  This is a last desperate chance which must be taken. From the mail which I
  788
  have received and the people who have come to see me since the original discussions in Northern Ireland and the tripartite talks I am absolutely convinced that many, many people want to give these proposals a chance. I can only support the Bill and the orders which will be brought before the House. In doing so, I am certain that I shall have the support of all hon. Members in the House and the people of Northern Ireland.
  10.28 p.m.
  Mr. Stanley Orme: This has been a typical Irish debate. You, Mr. Speaker, said that you wanted to rule on the utterances in the debate, but it has been an honest debate in the sense that we have discussed issues frankly and openly. No other issue in British politics recently has had more discussion and airing before the operation of the proposals involved. We are still 13 days away from the activation of the Executive. The activation of the Council of Ireland proposals will flow only after the Executive has been set up, with the various commissions which will look into the many aspects.
  As many hon. Members have said today, there is much ground to be covered. Many of the questions which have been asked about the Council of Ireland, not least by the hon. and gallant Member for Down, South (Captain Orr), the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley), the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Mrs. McAliskey) and the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. McManus), while criticising the whole issue, the Assembly, the Executive and the Council of Ireland proposals, nevertheless have kept returning to the central points of criticism or suggestion.
  The hon. Lady the Member for Mid-Ulster is very much in the same category as the hon. Member for Antrim, North. The hon. Lady wants in and she wants out at the same time. She has great ability and intelligence, but she cannot resist the temptation to take up points and examine them in detail, and, having examined them in detail, she keeps returning to the point that the whole idea is of no use.
  Mrs. McAliskey Mrs. McAliskey rose—
  Mr. Orme: May I continue, because I have something else to say to the hon. Lady and her hon. Friends?
  Mrs. McAliskey: The hon. Gentleman has raised this point in several debates, and I am a little concerned by his attitude that if one is opposed to something one is not allowed to accept reality. I know that I am opposed to the Bill. I also know that it will be passed by this House. It is not fair for the hon. Gentle-
  790
  man to imply that I am guilty of some kind of irregularity. I am quite entitled to say that I think the whole scheme will not work, and then to take it in detail and say "If you are going to have it, then let us have some straightforward answers about how you will do it." I am entitled to do that.
  Mr. Orme: Absolutely, and I have not criticised the hon. Lady's right to do that. All I am saying is that at the end of her criticism she does not say what she believes are the real alternatives. A strange alliance has grown up. I do not know what my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) said that brought this issue into the open—
  Rev. Ian Paisley Rev. Ian Paisley rose—
  Mr. Orme: No, I will not give way, because I have not developed the point.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Is the hon. Gentleman talking about what happened in the Tea Room? Can I not sit down with any hon. Member of this House and drink tea, without its being mentioned in this debate?
  Mr. Orme: The hon. Gentleman should not anticipate what I was going to say.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: The right hon. Gentleman did say it.
  Mr. Orme: No. I was referring to the alliance between the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Lady the Member for Mid-Ulster across the Floor of this House, because they have literally been on the same side, propping and copping one another in this debate today.
  Mr. McManus Mr. McManus rose—
  Mr. Orme: No, I will not give way, because I want to develop my argument and prove my point. The hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Antrim, North found a lot of common ground in their criticism and opposition. I am not imputing any motives, but they found common ground in their opposition to the Executive, in their opposition to the Assembly and in their opposition to the Council of Ireland. It was most interesting to note that some of the points were similar. But the hon. Gentleman's answer was not the same as the hon. Lady's.

  791
  The hon. Gentleman's answer was independent for the six counties of Northern Ireland, a return to one-party dominance, a return to the strategy to which the hon. Lady and her family have always been opposed—
  Rev. Ian Paisley: The hon. Gentleman is misrepresenting what I said. I said that I agreed that this matter should be put to the whole United Kingdom, and that if the whole United Kingdom made that decision we should have to go on our own. I did not advocate what the hon. Gentleman said.
  Mr. Orme: There seems to be a great deal of sensitivity in this debate tonight. I thought we were tougher than that in these Irish debates. But the hon. Gentleman is on record as saying what I said. First, he was a total integrationist, then he supported UDI, and I do not know what he supports at the moment.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for a Member to stand up in this House and say that another hon. Member holds to something which he does not hold to? Everybody knows that I have opposed UDI right down the line. UDI is a unilateral declaration of independence. I have called for negotiation, over and over again.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Oscar Morton): That is a debating point, not a point of order.
  Mr. Orme: As the hon. Gentleman, at the time of the election, made an alliance with a group and party in favour of UDI—I am talking about Mr. Craig now—I should have said that there was some common cause there. But I shall leave the hon. Member to argue those points out with his own people.
  I come back to the report in the Irish Times of the speech made by the hon. Member for Antrim, North. We can see from that speech that the hon. Member who speaks in Northern Ireland, in North Antrim, in his church, is a different Member from the one who speaks in the House of Commons.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Not true.
  Mr. Orme: We have it clearly on record. I do not remember his saying in this House that he had been threatened
  792
  by the British security forces. I do not remember his telling the House, or implying, what might have been the cause of Mr. Herron's death.
  I put this to the Minister. The hon. Member has made accusations, which have not been denied, that British Intelligence might take action against certain people. I want the Minister to make an investigation. We are entitled to that, and to a report to verify, or otherwise, what the hon. Gentleman has been saying. I ask for that because it is rumours of that sort that are creating problems in the Northern Ireland situation. In fact, there is no basis for them.
  Rev. Ian Paisley Rev. Ian Paisley rose—
  Mr. Orme: Let me finish. I am trying to address myself to the Minister. The hon. Gentleman has said also that the cages at Long Kesh are being enlarged, and he has implied that there might be a large measure of further internment. We want to know whether that is true. The Government have been frank with the House on these matters in the past, and we feel that we are entitled to a reply.
  The hon. Gentleman makes statements of that kind in Northern Ireland to people who, perhaps, take his word as gospel. They have even been made in a church. When he makes remarks of that kind, talking about being shot by British Security, questioning how Mr. Herron was killed, questioning what might happen in the future and speaking of his own personal position, it is important that the facts be known. Let us have the facts in the House. I wonder why the hon. Member has not raised these matters in the House.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: It is the responsibility of the hon. Member to go to the person responsible. I put these facts to the former Secretary of State. I went to Stormont Castle and put them to the Secretary of State face to face.
  Mr. Orme: It is interesting that this is the first we have heard of it. Obviously, it was a private conversation, and the hon. Gentleman is now reporting that private conversation to the House. What are these facts?
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I put them to the Minister.
  Mr. Orme: Why not put them to the House? Will the hon. Gentleman give

  793
  the facts now? I readily give him the opportunity.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I have already tried putting down a Question about British Intelligence. Everyone knows that one cannot get Questions about British Intelligence on the Order Paper. The Minister has the facts, and he can answer on those facts.
  Mr. Orme: I agree that there is probably great difficulty in putting Questions about British Intelligence, but what was there to stop the hon. Gentleman telling the House about these matters? He could have laid them before the House. We have asked for the facts. If he wants to give them to the House now, let him do so.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: The Minister has the facts. When the Minister has the facts, it is up to him to communicate with the Member about them.
  Mr. Orme: No.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: When an hon. Member has a matter of concern to his constituents, he goes to the Minister first. When the Minister replies, if his reply is not satisfactory the Member puts down a public Question. The hon. Gentleman is well aware of that.
  Mr. Orme: The hon. Member for Antrim, North is not slow in putting forward his point of view and is extremely articulate. He can express himself very well in this House. I should have thought that a threatened assassination by British security forces was not a matter to be whispered into the ear of a Minister, particularly if the hon. Member was not satisfied with the answer. I think that this has exposed the hon. Member tonight, and he has a duty to explain himself and his actions.
  Mr. Wellbeloved: On a point of order Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have just been informed by strangers in the Central Lobby that the Strangers' Gallery has been partially cleared. I am aware that it is important that some of the staff should get away by 11 o'clock, but I can see no reason why substantial numbers of the general public have been ushered out of the Gallery. Will you give instructions that the Gallery should be re-opened?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I shall look into the matter.
  Mr. Wellbeloved: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There are strangers now in the Central Lobby who wish to return to listen to the end of this debate. Can you do something immediately for them to be re-admitted to this Parliament?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I wish only to reiterate to the hon. Member what I have said. I shall look into the matter.
  Mr. Wellbeloved: Very well, I shall go and escort them up there myself.
  Mr. George Thomas: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May we be assured that you will indicate your decision within a short while, because it is part of the tradition of this House that all the public, not just a part of it, shall hear us.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I give that assurance. I shall look into the matter expeditiously.
  Mr. Orme: I wish now to deal with some of the arguments raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Ulster on the question of rent and rate strikes, the economic policies and the fact that they have not been presented to the Assembly. These are valid points which she is right to raise in this House. I hope that when the new Executive begins work on 1st January it will pay immediate attention to them. If the hon. Members for Antrim, North and Down, South directed their activities and opposition to demanding to see these policies and that they be debated in the Assembly instead of stopping the Assembly from working, the communities would see the value of the Assembly.
  The whole question of confidence in the Executive will be based not on what is written in the Act, not on the position of two sentences in Section 5, but on what the Council of Ireland and the Executive do. They will be judged in Northern Ireland by results. Some of the policies which are to be hammered out will cause great difficulty. They will create political differences, and no doubt my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Ulster and I will be on the same side in some of them. But I want to see these arguments

  795
  starting in Northern Ireland. I want to see the Assembly and the Executive working, and I want to see the hon. Member for Antrim, North using his considerable talents in pulling these policies apart and putting forward alternatives on behalf of those he represents. He claims, and I do not doubt it, that he is a good constituency Member for all his constituents. He has a job to do in that Assembly. There is much work to be done in Northern Ireland in the coming months and years. The hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways. He cannot pull it all down with one hand and build it up with the other.
  Mr. McManus: Does the hon. Gentleman realise what he has said? In the midst of his marvellous outburst he said the most extraordinary thing. He said "I want to see the proposals". He now tells us, he and his hon. Friends having all day borne the brunt of the defence of the Bill, the Government never intervening, that he has not seen the package to which he has given carte blanche and unqualified support. It seems that he has not seen the proposals. What about his hon. Friend the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt)? Has he not given him a preview? The hon. Gentleman has said that he has seen nothing of the proposals which he is wholeheartedly and unconditionally supporting.
  Mr. Orme: The hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that he has seen an outline of the proposals. An outline of some of the proposals was published in the Irish papers. I have seen an outline. What I want to see, and what he wants to see, is the Executive chairman putting the proposals to the Assembly and the proposals then being put to the Irish people. The Executive will come into being on 1st January. I presume that there will be a Queen's Speech type of presentation of the Executive's policy. It can then be examined in great detail. We can then have the argument.
  The hon. Member for Mid-Ulster referred to the rent strike. She asked what the Minister will do. I believe that the people who are in key positions will carry out their important jobs. The hon. Lady criticises Mr. Devlin, by inference, for being in charge—
  Mrs. McAliskey Mrs. McAliskey rose—
  Mr. Orme: Let me finish. I am referring to the hon. Lady and I will give way to her in a moment. She referred to Mr. Currie while talking about the rent and rate strike. She asked whether there will be an amnesty. It is right that the hon. Lady should pose such questions. But she wants an answer from the Executive and from the Assembly to which she is bitterly opposed.
  Mrs. McAliskey: The hon. Gentleman cannot anticipate the activities of the Minister-designate of Health and Social Services. That is what he is doing. I did not criticise. I asked questions of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. I asked whether the Minister-designate would have certain powers. It was a straight-forward question—namely, how can the Minister refuse to implement an amnesty and retain credibility? The hon. Gentleman is anticipating that the Minister-designate for Health and Social Services will not grant an amnesty, that he will continue to carry out certain policies. He is assuming that I am criticising the Minister in advance. I was not criticising but asking a question.
  Mr. Orme: I am posing the question. I should not have the temerity to tell the Executive what its policy should be. I am certain that the Secretary of State will not be in that position. The Executive would probably tell him, if there were a conflict of policies, that it was an elected body and that it would carry out its policies.
  The Executive has already discussed many of the social and economic problems. The Council of Ireland has done so. We want to see real political intercourse take place. It will have to take place if the Northern Ireland Assembly is to get off the ground and if the Council of Ireland provisions are to work. We all recognise that there are great difficulties.
  The hon. and gallant Member for Down, South made a most interesting and excellent speech. I did not necessarily agree with its contents. He put the arguments cogently. There was one error in what he said. That was a basic error. He is too pessimistic about the eventual outcome. There are people, Unionists like himself, who are endeavouring to make this work. There are also Unionists who are opposed to it. But what

  797
  amazes me is the number of Unionists who have come out in favour of working the new set-up.
  I know the hon. and gallant Gentleman's close association in the past with Mr. Faulkner and that he does not lightly break with him politically, but there is a chance that this Assembly can work, and I hope that his pessimism is wrong. I hope, too, that the hon. Member for Antrim, North will be able to turn his talents to help make it work.
  Finally, I want to say to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Ulster that one of the most memorable speeches she has made in this House was when she talked about working-class Protestants and Roman Catholics in Belfast and the conditions they live in. She spoke of how their aspirations were really in line were it not for this 300-year-old religious barrier dividing them. I agreed with her.
  Unfortunately, they do not follow her in the type of policies she is propounding to this House or to Northern Ireland. But I believe that we must get the people, particularly in Belfast, away from mythology on to the practicalities of the political situation and of what can be done in social and economic policy, in employment and housing, which may entail public ownership of certain sectors of land, more public investment and more industrial development.
  I look forward with confidence to the work of my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) in the new Executive. It does not behove my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Ulster to criticise Mr. Faulkner and my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West for coming together when we see her and the hon. Member for Antrim, North joining together on a specific point of total opposition to the new Assembly. It does not behove either of them to criticise in that manner.
  Mrs. McAliskey: When one is talking about conspiracies and getting together, there seems to be, starting with the remarks made by the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt), a deliberate attempt to put across the idea that the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) and I are in some kind of alliance. I, from what is called in this House the extreme Left, oppose the Executive; the hon. Member for Antrim,
  798
  North opposes it from the extreme Right. We find ourselves sharing the same ground. Neither of us came to any agreement or sacrificed any principles or reneged on any promise given to our electors. That is the difference between the hon. Member for Belfast, West and Mr. Faulkner on the one hand and the hon. Member for Antrim, North and me on the other.
  Mr. Orme: I see that my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Ulster is sensitive when I make this point because she resents the fact that I am able to draw that parallel. What she said about her independence of the hon. Member for Antrim, North, although they may come together on specific points, applies equally to Mr. Faulkner and my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Does the hon. Gentleman really think it fair that because I happened to be in the Tea Room today—[Interruption.] This is where it all arose from; let the House not be under any misapprehension; it has developed because the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster and I agreed on certain things. If the hon. Lady disagrees with the Executive, she is entitled to say so. Hon. Members of this House representing extreme opposites have gone into a lobby together for a specific matter, but that is not to say that they joined together to form a Government. But Mr. Faulkner and the hon. Member for Belfast, West have joined together to form a Government. That is quite different.
  I am not a bit sensitive. The hon. Gentleman may say what he likes and as much as he likes, but the people of Mid-Ulster and the people of Antrim, North know their Members. If the hon. Gentleman wants to say something which he thinks may damage in some way our reputations among our constituents of Mid-Ulster and Antrim, North, he can try it. I have submitted myself to my electorate. If they do not want what I believe in, so be it. It will be their choice. But it is not right for the hon. Gentleman to say that there is an alliance between myself and the hon. Lady in the same way as there is an alliance between Mr. Faulkner and the hon. Member for Belfast, West. I do not think he should try to imply that. Of course he can say we agree, and so we do. I have agreed with the hon. Member

  799
  in a Committee about a matter concerning juries. No one suggested that I had entered into some sort of conspiracy.
  Mr. Orme: I am sorry to detain the House, because I know there are some hon. Members who feel that the debate has gone on long enough. I hope they realise the seriousness of this situation and of the argument. We are talking about the reality of Northern Ireland, not the philosophy. We are dealing with the lives of people. I am not talking about cups of tea. I was sitting in an unholy alliance elsewhere earlier today having cups of tea. I am talking about what happened here this afternoon and what was said by the hon. Member for Antrim, North, the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster and the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone. They should not be so sensitive.
  It is not right to impugn the motives of my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West and Mr. Faulkner. If people remain in this House long enough they will see some strange alliances come and go. I accept what the hon. Lady has said. I have found myself with the most odd people on occasions. I am glad that the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) is in his place because I think that he thinks the same thing. We have found ourselves in the same Lobby in the past because we came together on an idea which we believed, from our standpoint, was politically important.
  I have tried to draw together the threads of the debate—a dangerous thing to do in a debate on Irish affairs. It was important to try to do so and to say that we welcome the new Executive. We give the orders a fair wind and wait to see their outcome. We welcome the proposals for a Council of Ireland. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) outlined many points which the Minister who is to reply will no doubt bear in mind. I have listened to the forcible arguments expressed against the proposals for the Executive and the Council of Ireland. What I have not heard is what we could put in their place which could bridge the two communities in Northern Ireland. Until we hear this the Opposition will continue to support these current policies.
  10.59 p.m.
  The Minister of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. William van Straubenzee): The hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) reminded us in his closing remarks that we were talking about flesh and blood, the very lives of people in Northern Ireland. Nevertheless it must be right, when the House is considering the Bill and the associated orders—two at least of which are most complex—that it should expect me to examine these measures closely and to answer the points made with as much information as possible.
  I was asked by the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) about the salary of what I call the new Members of the Executive—that is, those who appear for the first time in the Bill. It is proposed that all the Members of the new Northern Ireland administration should receive the same salary, except the Chief Executive, who is in a different category. The salary will be provided for by means of an Order in Council, under Section 9 of the Constitution Act, which is not subject to a parliamentary procedure. In other words, there will not be, in financial terms, first and second class citizens among heads of department and others appointed by my right hon. Friend.
  The hon. Gentleman was doubtful whether there was sufficient flexibility in the Bill. There is greater flexibility in the formula in the Bill than there was in the Constitution Act. I should have thought that the House, in any circumstance like this, would want to have control over the maximum figure and would not be prepared to give carte blanche in respect of the numbers of the Executive. That is why there is an upper figure.
  The hon. Gentleman asked me for a list of the transferred functions. I will gladly consider whether there is a convenient way of giving this. But what we are talking about is listing all the functions of government other than those which are expressly kept back in one or other of the two schedules. The hon. Gentleman, with his long experience in government, will know that this is a formidable task and, by its nature, is never likely to be complete. Although I will look at the matter again, that is a reservation which I must make.

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  The hon. Gentleman reasonably asked whether a transferred matter could be clawed back by this House. If we are talking about the powers being devolved, the answer is "Not by this House". It could be clawed back if the Assembly passed a resolution to that effect, praying that that should happen, and if a draft Order in Council to that effect were laid before Parliament and approved. But it is not open to this House to claw back the powers being devolved.
  The hon. Member for Leeds, South and my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) and others raised a legitimate point which they detected with their eagle eye, namely, the reason for a certain change in terminology between the word "Office" and the word "Department" as they appeared in earlier statements and the present one. When we looked at the matter more closely, we felt that it was the intention of Parliament, that the Offices, as they were previously referred to, should have been subject to the scrutiny of a consultative committee of the Assembly in precisely the same way as the Departments should be.
  In order to conform with the requirements of the Constitution Act, the proposed language is necessary. That is the reason for use of the word "Department" rather than "Office". That is a change. I realise that the matter is not easy to follow when we are dealing with a chain of interlocked documents. It is necessary first to create two new Ministries. They will have a very short life—almost of minutes. They will then change into Departments by the subsequent order. It is not easy to explain simply, and I understand why my hon. Friend does not at first find it easy to follow, but that is the sequence of events, and I hope that he will find it helpful.
  I was asked by the hon. Member for Leeds, South whether further legislation would be required in respect of Departments. He had in mind that some of the existing Northern Ireland Departments will have to have the boundaries of their functions redelineated. These matters, including in one case a change of name, which are necessary to give full effect to the agreement between the parties will be done by a transfer of functions order. That is not subject to parliamentary pro-
  802
  cedure. Subject to the business today, I expect that order to be made by my right hon. Friend before long and certainly before 1st January. I will write to the hon. Gentleman about the detailed points he raised on the Documentary Evidence Act and similar matters.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) asked about the studies envisaged in what has come to be known as the communiqué from Sunningdale. The studies of the functions of the Council of Ireland will initially be started at official level between North and South with United Kingdom participation.
  I am asked for a little more explanation of the position of the police authority. The White Paper stated that the police authority would be reconstituted to include elected representatives, and the district councils would form the basis of local committees with advisory responsibilities. On my right hon. Friend's behalf I have written to all those responsible, and I believe that the local committees will be important in providing closer association between locally elected people, and others, and the police. The police very much welcome this arrangement.
  I do not want to raise the temperature of the debate at this late hour, but in dealing with certain matters raised by the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) I am entitled to place quietly and firmly on the record that subsequent to the agreement between the parties the hon. Gentleman—as he will readily concede—received three letters from the former Secretary of State inviting the hon. Gentleman to see him about his wish to attend Sunningdale. Those were unconditional and open invitations. I am not criticising the hon. Gentleman for refusing to accept the first two, but eventually he came to see my right hon. Friend shortly after his appointment, when I was present. There were placed before him and Mr. Craig those unconditional invitations to come and discuss the matter.
  I was sent by my right hon. Friend to Northern Ireland at the time of the Sunningdale talks, and I know from personal knowledge that a special plane was kept on stand-by until the morning of the conference. I personally supervised these

  803
  arrangements. With the minimum of inconvenience and personal trouble, the hon. Gentleman and Mr. Craig could have been transported to Sunningdale, and back, in order that they might make their representations if they wished. When these accusations are made it is right and proper that the matter should be clearly put on the record.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Would the Minister not agree that the two letters—I invite him to print them in the OFFICIAL REPORT—did not invite Mr. Craig or myself to open-ended talks, but invited us to give our opinion on one matter—the Council of Ireland—and not the other matters in paragraph 112 of the White Paper? Will he not concede to the House that the letter asking us to go to the Sunningdale talks was delivered to the House of Commons at three o'clock? We replied immediately, and the letter was delivered at six o'clock to the Castle. Therefore, there was no need for a plane to be standing by next day, because our firm refusal to attend had already been notified. I have a copy of the letter. The Minister said we were invited to open-ended talks, but we were not. We were invited to express an opinion on only one matter, the Council of Ireland.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I adhere to my view that the hon. Gentleman was invited by the previous Secretary of State for the fullest discussions on matters which were under discussion. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the last letter, from the present Secretary of State, he will find it was not limited in this way. I am making the point that we—I hope, correctly—leaned over backwards so that if the hon. Gentleman and Mr. Craig changed their minds at the last moment we had arrangements to transport them in appropriate comfort and appropriate speed to the discussions.
  I am anxious to make that point clear so that there can be no misunderstanding. I shall be perfectly content, and will have no complaint, if the hon. Gentleman decides to publish the letters. My immediate recollection, although off the cuff, is that the hon. Gentleman quoted from one of the letters in the Assembly. There can be no possible criticisms of him making public the terms of the letters. They were open letters.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: On a point of clarification, is it not a fact that when
  804
  we got the letter which was open-ended I came down and talked to the present Secretary of State? When he stated that the invitation was open-ended, I responded.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I should like to make clear that the hon. Gentleman did come the third time. It is on record that the hon. Gentleman decided not to accept the invitation to Sunningdale. I wish to make clear the great trouble that the Government took to make quite certain that two voices which they thought ought to be heard could be heard. The decision was the hon. Gentleman's. He will take the responsibility for that decision, but I am entitled to place clearly on the record the fact about the invitations.
  The hon. Member for Salford, West was slightly critical that there had not been an immediate investigation or inquiry into the allegation by the hon. Member for Antrim, North that he was liable to be assassinated by British Intelligence forces. With every respect to the hon. Gentleman, if Ministers were to investigate every allegation made by the hon. Member for Antrim, North it would be necessary to set up another new Ministry for the purpose under this order.
  To the best of my recollection—I have been able to check this only hurriedly—it is perfectly true that in the fairly recent past the hon. Gentleman said it was his belief that he was likely to be assassinated by British Intelligence forces. But I will have this matter checked, and I shall talk to the previous Secretary of State. I hope that I do not do any disrespect to any hon. Member when I say that most hon. Members would find it not an easy assertion to accept, but I take it seriously. To the best of my knowledge, but I must check this carefully, the hon. Gentleman gave no chapter and verse for this allegation. But the life of anyone in Northern Ireland is important and the life of a Member of the Assembly is very important. If he has hard evidence or, indeed, a secret suspicion which he thinks should be followed up, my right hon. Friend has asked me to say that he would be very receptive to—indeed, would positively invite—the placing before him of that evidence. Of course, without any question, any allegation which should be investigated will be followed up.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: This is a very serious point. Probably all of us—hon. Members from Northern Ireland far worse than the rest of us—get threatening letters against ourselves and our families on which we have to make a judgment. That is one thing: it is part of the game. But what we have had in this case is an assertion—no more than that—that the life of an hon. Member elected to this House is in danger from British Army Intelligence sources, I understand, which are under the control of a Secretary of State. That is a most serious allegation to make against the British Army, and there must be some means of investigating it. One hears about the SAS and bodies of that kind elsewhere which are all part of the same pattern. This matter cannot be dismissed: it is a slight against the reputation of the British Army. When an allegation is made that a Secretary of State's Department is threatening the life of the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley), it must be investigated: it is too serious to pass over.
  Mr. van Straubenzee Mr. van Straubenzee rose—
  Rev. Ian Paisley: The Minister of State has tonight treated this allegation almost with contempt, talking about setting up a new Department to investigate all the allegations that he says I make. I challenge him to tell me how many allegations I have ever listed to the Secretary of State. I gave the Secretary of State the facts as I knew them. He spoke as if I were trotting out some piffling little thing that was not worth accepting. I have made a solemn and very serious statement—I know the seriousness of the statement—and I have also put other facts forward. The Minister of State says that he is not even cognisant of the facts, that he must check them carefully before he makes a statement against what I have said. Surely he should check his facts, and then he should have the opportunity to answer.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I have said what I believe to be the truth. Careful record is always taken of official conversations with any Minister. I remember reading the note in question; I must check back—I have not had the opportunity to do so yet except in general terms. So that there may be no misunderstanding, I am certain that the first move is that the hon. Member should
  806
  be so good now—I mean forthwith, upon his return—to furnish again—if he would prefer the word "again"—
  Rev. Ian Paisley: You have the facts.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: So that there may be no possible peradventure about this, let it be done immediately. It might help if I tell the hon. Gentleman that the Minister of State beside me leaves tomorrow morning to be the Minister on duty over the weekend. He would be absolutely receptive to having this evidence at once so that there may be no delay.
  I hope that hon. Members will feel that that undertaking is given in good faith, that it gets the matter started. I hope that we can now proceed, because there are other matters with which I should deal.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: Is it not strange that, after this matter had been given to the Secretary of State, not to the Minister of State, the Minister of State should say that I should come back and give the same information again. If he has the note that he spoke about he has sufficient to start his investigations. The Minister of State need not think that he can put me on some sort of grill and heat a fire under me. I know what I said and I will stand by what I said. But he has already got it, and it should have been investigated long ago. It is late in the day now to ask me to tell the story again and then to accuse me of making so many accusations that a new Department would be needed to deal with them all. Is it not a fact that, although he talks about the great co-operation he has had he wrote to the party I lead and told it that he would never meet it again until it took off the Order Paper a motion that was before the Assembly? Is it not a fact that he now finds himself before the Committee of Privileges in the Assembly? Then he talks about co-operation.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I think the House will draw its own conclusion from the smokescreen to which we have listened. So that the matter may be absolutely clear, let me repeat what I said. My hon. Friend the Minister of State will be on duty tomorrow. When dealing with allegations of a criminal offence, it is the duty of the hon. Member for Antrim, North to co-operate with the

  807
  forces of law and order—and this will be done if we have the co-operation of the hon. Gentleman. I make no comment on any other matters because they are sub judice and because it would be improper for me to make any comment on them.
  If I may continue—and I am drawing my remarks to a close—I should like to answer two points in the moving speech made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr). Although I have no doubt he made his comments in good faith, I am afraid that unintentionally he misled the House in suggesting that one of the orders abolished the Ministry of Home Affairs, which it does, but that in future the functions controlled by that Ministry were to be handed back. I say to my hon. Friend, with respect, that this is not so.
  I happen, under my right hon. Friend's direction, to be concerned with this Ministry. Much the greater part of it, though not all, will transfer to the Northern Ireland Office. It will involve the same personnel. We have the happiest working relationships. The staff who will carry out the functions reserved to the Secretary of State will undertake this work. We intend that the existing administrative arrangements—for example, the way in which people are appointed, carry out their duties and are paid and managed—should so far as possible be undisturbed. I say this because, assuming that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister so decides, it will be my continuing duty after 1st January to work with them. I want nobody to have any false impression about what is happening as a result of the distribution of functions.
  My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South asked why we needed so many members on the Executive and made a kind of reference to existing Ministers. I will give him two reasons. The first is that I do not think it will be fair in future to expect Ministers to work and live at the sort of pressure that has obtained since direct rule. One of us looks after two Ministries, another looks after three Ministries and the others look after one Ministry apiece.
  May I say in passing that much of the splendid economic growth in the period since direct rule owes much to the wisdom of my colleague the Minister of
  808
  State. But with all our efforts we have not been able to do as much as we would like. On the health side, I am conscious that I have not visited as many hospitals as I would have liked to visit—though I have been to nearly all. I am conscious that I have not visited enough old people's homes. My designated successor will do this very much better. Furthermore, those who look after the Office of Manpower Planning will be able to get around to see all sorts of things, such as community relations. These are the reasons why men and women from Northern Ireland should be undertaking this task. We have done it willingly, and willingly we are working ourselves out of our jobs. But let no one suggest, however kindly the tributes from the House, that this is the sort of locally-based administration in these matters which Northern Ireland deserves.
  As we pass, shortly, from direct rule, I pay this tribute. There is a body of men and women who seem to be the unsung heroes of direct rule. They are the members of the Northern Ireland Civil Service. Sometimes I wonder whether this House realises the traumatic experience that direct rule imposed upon them. Speaking for myself and for all my ministerial colleagues, I say that every one of us has had unstinting support and loyalty from them all. On personal terms, we shall part from them with real regrets and sadness.
  I mentioned the deeply sincere speech of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South. I make two points in answer to him. I know that I carry him with me totally in my first. In relation to those who think like him in the Opposition in Northern Ireland—and I specify carefully "those who think like him"—I hope and believe that he and they will be firm in their belief and loud in their proclamation of their belief that their opposition should be of a strictly parliamentary nature. We know that my hon. and gallant Friend says that unreservedly. But his example in this on the other side of the water will be very powerful.
  My second point is to remind my hon. and gallant Friend that, in a limited way, I too have roots deep in Unionism in Northern Ireland. It is more than 20 years since, as Young Conservative chairman, I went to my first set of meetings.

  809
  Bill Craig was a Young Unionist. I have marched in certain cities. I have been to endless meetings. Over 20 years I have kept up my links. But, increasingly over the years, I came to feel that the one-party State there had within it the seeds of its own destruction.
  I say to my hon. and gallant Friend, with the same sincerity though not with the same skill, that one of the most formative and interesting experiences of my life has been to sit behind the former Secretary of State with my hon. Friend the Minister of State at nearly every session of the inter-party talks and to see developing over the weeks the changes in men's attitudes as they came to appreciate one another's points of view. Here were men with a positive approach. Against the background of the horror
  Question accordingly agreed to.
  Bill read a Second time.
  Bill committeed to a Committee of the whole House. [Mr. Weatherill.]
  Bill immediately considered in Committee; reported, without amendment.
  Motion made, and Question, That the Bill be now read the Third time, put fothwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 56 (Third Reading), and agreed to.
  of Northern Ireland's life, they had a positive approach.
  As a result, I believe that they have forged together what may well be, as Mr. Faulkner was the first publicly to recognise, a stronger form of government for Northern Ireland than ever existed before. Having something of this background, all that I ask of my hon. and gallant Friend is that he will appreciate in others the same belief and sincerity as we accord him.
  No one knows what the future holds. But I know that in the structures of which we are seeing the completion in the Bill and the orders before us today lie real hope for a better, a prosperous and a peaceful Northern Ireland.
  Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second Time:—
  The House divided: Ayes 79, Noes 6.

  Division No. 22.]

  AYES

  [11.30 p.m.

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Hawkins, Paul

  Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby)

  Austick, David

  Hicks, Robert

  Parkinson, Cecil

  Benyon, W.

  Hornby, Richard

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Boscawen, Hn. Robert

  Hunt, John

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Bray, Ronald

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Chapman, Sydney

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  James, David

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Clegg, Walter

  Kerr, Russell

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Cohen, Stanley

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Concannon, J. D.

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Speed, Keith

  Cormack, Patrick

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Drayson, G. B.

  Longden, Sir Gilbert

  Steel, David

  Dykes, Hugh

  McMaster, Stanley

  Tebbit, Norman

  Eden, Rt. Hn. Sir John

  Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Maurice (Farnham)

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  English, Michael

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Tilney, Sir John

  Eyre, Reginald

  Madel, David

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Fitt, Gerard (Belfast, W.)

  Mather, Carol

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Fowler, Norman

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Fox, Marcus

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C)

  Monro, Hector

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  Green, Alan

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Gummer, J. Selwyn

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Gurden, Harold

  Normanton, Tom

  Mr. Michael Jobling and

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Oakes, Gordon

  Mr. Hamish Gray.

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Orme, Stanley

  NOES

  McAllskey, Mrs. Bernadette

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  McManus, Frank

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Mr. John E. Maginnis and

  Molyneaux, James

  Wellbeloved, James

  Rev. Ian Paisley.

  Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

NORTHERN IRELAND CONSTITUTION (DEVOLUTION)
Motion made, and Question put,
That the Northern Ireland Constitution (Devolution) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 6th December, be approved.—[Mr. Pym.]
The House divided: Ayes 79, Noes 4.

Division No. 23.]

AYES

[11.40 p.m.

Archer, Puter (Rowley Regis)

Hawkins, Paul

Orme, Stanley

Atkins, Humphrey

Hicks, Robert

Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby)

Austick, David

Hornby, Richard

Parkinson, Cecil

Benyon, W.

Homsby-Smlth, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia

Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

Berry, Hn. Anthony

Howell, David (Guildford)

Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

Biggs-Davison, John

Hunt, John

Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

Boscawen, Hn. Robert

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

Bray, Ronald

Iremonger, T. L.

Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

Chapman, Sydney

James, David

Russell, Sir Ronald

Clegg, Walter

Jopling, Michael

Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

Cohen, Stanley

Kerr, Russell

Shelton, William (Clapham)

Concannon, J. D.

Kinsey, J. R.

Speed, Keith

Cormack, Patrick

Langford-Holt, Sir John

Stanbrook, Ivor

Drayson, G. B.

Le Marchant, Spencer

Steel, David

Dykes, Hugh

Longden, Sir Gilbert

Tebbit, Norman

Eden, Rt. Hn. Sir John

McMaster, Stanley

Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)

Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Maurlce (Farnham)

Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

English, Michael

McNair-Wilson, Michael

Tilney, Sir John

Eyre, Reginald

McNamara, J. Kevin

van Straubenzee, W. R.

Fitt, Gerard (Belfast, W.)

Madel, David

Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

Fowler, Norman

Mather, Carol

Walder, David (Clitheroe)

Fox, Marcus

Mills, Peter (Torrington)

Weatherill, Bernard

Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

White, Roger (Gravesend)

Green, Alan

Monro, Hector

Gummer, J. Selwyn

Montgomery, Fergus

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Gurden, Harold

Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

Mr. Hamish Gray and

Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

Normanton, Tom

Mr. Kenneth Clarke.

Harrison, Waller (Wakefield)

Oakes, Gordon

NOES

McAliskey, Mrs. Bernadette

Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Molyneaux, James

Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

Mr. John E. Maginnis and Rev. Tan Paisley.

Question accordingly agreed to.

NORTHERN IRELAND (TRANSFER OF FUNCTIONS)
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Northern Ireland (Modification of Enactments—No. 1) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 6th December, be approved.—[Mr. Pym.]
11.49 p.m.
Mr. Stanley R. McMaster: As I indicated to you earlier, Mr. Deputy Speaker, there are a number of points which I feel should be raised on these important orders. This order deals with the transfer to the Secretary of State of certain functions of the Ministry of Home Affairs for Northern Ireland and of the Privy Council of Northern Ireland. The functions of the Ministry of Home Affairs include police, criminal law, detention of offenders, electoral law, prisons, courts, juries, debt enforcement, compensation claims and similar matters. The Lord Chancellor is also to take over the appointment of coroners, county court judges, magistrates, the Lands Tribunal and other matters. The Civil Service becomes responsible for employing, dismissing and fixing terms of service of public servants involved in the
812
administration of those services, and the Treasury takes over financial responsibility.
The point which I put to my right hon. and hon. Friends is the one that was raised during the earlier debate but was not dealt with in the winding-up speech. With so many important matters now being transferred to Westminster, what is the Government's intention regarding the representation of Northern Ireland in this House? Westminster has not hitherto dealt with these matters, and I should like to know whether the number of Members of Parliament will be increased.
11.50 p.m.
The Minister of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. David Howell): I am not sure whether that point is covered by this order, but, if it is not out of order, I shall answer the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) in this way: those matters have been very fully dealt with in the debate on the Northern Ireland Constitution Bill, on the White Paper, and again and again in the House on other occasions. My right hon. Friend the former

813
Secretary of State and my other right hon. and hon. Friends have made clear again and again that the question was not for further consideration at this time, and that it was not a matter which they were prepared to open up and discuss in the context of the present constitutional changes in Northern Ireland.
My hon. Friend may feel otherwise, as do some other hon. Members—my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) raised the matter earlier in the evening—but it is not, in the Government's view, a matter which can be opened up in this discussion, and the Government have no comment to make on that situation at this time.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Northern Ireland (Modification of Enactments—No. 1) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 6th December, be approved.—(Mr. Secretary Pym.)

NORTHERN IRELAND (MINISTRIES)
Motion made, and Question proposed.
That the Ministries (Northern Ireland) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 6th December, be approved.—[Mr. van Straubenzee.]
11.52 p.m.
Mr. Stanley McMaster: This order deals with a great many detailed matters. It creates two new Northern Ireland Departments—Manpower and Environment—and it abolishes the old Ministry of Home Affairs, most of whose functions go to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.
This matter also was raised earlier, but I do not think that it was properly understood by my hon. Friend the Minister of State. In any event, in his reply he seemed to miss the point that the question is about terminology. Should one refer to the new Departments as Departments or Ministries? This is of particular relevance in the context of the Council of Ireland, because those members of the Council of Ireland representing Southern Ireland will be Ministers.
I hope that my hon. Friend will at least look at this matter again and write to me about it. There is a feeling in Northern
814
Ireland that it would be better, instead of making the transfer rather as caterpillar changes to chrysalis and then to butterfly, to stop at the stage of Minister. This would in no way weaken the legislation which is being passed by the House, but it would appeal to many people in Northern Ireland if my hon. Friend saw fit to call these people Ministers, as, indeed, they are called in parts of the legislation, instead of just heads of Departments.
The order deals with the various functions of certain Ministries, notably the Ministry of Development, covering housing, local government and planning, environment, roads, transport, conservation, pollution, and so on. But the subjects of roads and transport is quite distinct from that of housing and local government and planning.
If development is meant to include housing and local government as we understand them, is there not a case that roads and transport should be under a separate Minister? Will my hon. Friend the Minister deal with the division of responsibility under the heading of health and social services? This is coupled with manpower, training, labour relations and employment. Why is training under this heading? Surely it should come under the heading of education. There are other similar points in respect of the other Ministries but at this stage I simply ask my hon. Friend what flexibility exists in this matter. Will he look carefully at representations made to him from Northern Ireland on the way the powers are divided between these various Ministries?
11.57 p.m.
The Minister of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. David Howell): I do not see any confusion on the first point my hon. Friend raised. The purpose of the legislation that has been before this House this evening is, in the first instance, to create the new Ministries, which then, almost instantaneously, under further legislation devolving power to the new Executive, become, as specified in the Constitution Act, Departments at midnight on 31st December. The purpose of the legislation this evening is to create the Ministries that can then become Departments.

815
My hon. Friend referred to the Ministry of Development. That already exists. What emerges out of that under the proposed division of functions under the Executive is a Department of the Environment which as a pre-condition must have been preceded by a Ministry of the Environment which then becomes a Department.
Mr. McMaster: I am well aware that Ministries become Departments. The point is one of terminology. Is it not possible to call them Ministries, with a Minister at their head, instead of Departments?
Mr. Howell: This was fully discussed during the passage of the Constitution Act, which laid down that Ministries should in future be known as Departments and that those who were at the head of Departments should be known as heads of departments. That is the situation which faces the new Executive when it takes office on 1st January.
Manpower and training are very closely bound together and are at present combined in the Ministry of Health and Social Services. But with a separate Department it also makes good sense to have manpower and training close together. There is a very good programme for manpower and training in Northern Ireland. It has been extremely well run. I am sure that it will be run with great imagination and vigour in the future.
As for flexibility, I am sure that it will be possible in the new situation for there to be changes of functions as between Departments so that there will be some degree of flexibility.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Ministries (Northern Ireland) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 6th December, be approved.—(Mr. van Straubenzee.)

NORTHERN IRELAND (MINISTRIES)

  UNIT PRICING BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 66 (Second Reading Committees), That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  Question agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

  STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

    CUSTOMS AND EXCISE
    Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to the Standing Order (Statutory Instruments),
    That the Customs Duties and Drawbacks (Revenue Duties) Order 1973 (S.I., 1973, No. 1946), a copy of which was laid before this House on 28th November, be approved.—[Mr. Gray.]
    Question agreed to.
    Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to the Standing Order (Statutory Instruments),
    That the Customs Duties and Drawbacks (Revenue Duties) (Algeria, Cyprus, Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia and Turkey) Order 1973 (S.I., 1973, No. 1947), a copy of which was laid before this House on 28th November, be approved.—[Mr. Gray.]
    Question agreed to.
    Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to the Standing Order (Statutory Instruments),
    That the Hydrocarbon Oil (Customs Duties) Order 1973 (S.I., 1973, No. 1948) a copy of which was laid before this House on 28th November be approved.—[Mr. Gray.]
    Question agreed to.

    AIR CORPORATIONS
    Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to the Standing Order (Statutory Instruments),
    That the Air Corporations (Dissolution) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 29th November, be approved.—[Mr. Gray.]
    Question agreed to.

    AGRICULTURE AND HORTICULTURE
    Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to the Standing Order (Statutory Instruments),
    That the Farm and Horticulture Development Regulations 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 29th November, be approved.—[Mr. Gray.]
    Question agreed to.
    Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to the Standing Order (Statutory Instruments),
    That the Horticulture Capital Grant Scheme 1973 (S.I., 1973, No. 1945), a copy of which

    817
    was laid before this House on 29th November, be approved.—[Mr. Gray.]
    Question agreed to.
    Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to the Standing Order (Statutory Instruments),
    That the Horticulture Improvement (Amendment) Scheme 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 29th November, be approved.—[Mr. Gray.]
    Question agreed to.
    Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to the Standing Order (Statutory Instruments),
    That the Farm Capital Grant Scheme 1973 (S.I., 1973, No. 1965), a copy of which was laid before this House on 3rd December, be approved.—[Mr. Gray.]
    Question agreed to.

    RATING AND VALUATION
    Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to the Standing Order (Statutory Instruments),
    That the Valuation (Statutory Deductions) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 15th November, be approved.—[Mr. Gray.]
    Question agreed to.
    Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to the Standing Order (Statutory Instruments),
    That the Transport Boards (Adjustment of Payments) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 29th November, be approved.—[Mr. Gray.]
    Question agreed to.

    ADJOURNMENT
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Gray.]

SUB-POST OFFICES
12 midnight.
Mr. Arthur Davidson: I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for allowing this matter for the debate on the Adjournment. It particularly concerns old people. There has been great concern in my constituency because in recent months there have been two closures of sub-post offices. However, it is a matter that transcends mere constituency interest.
I ask the Minister to re-examine the criteria that are used by the Post Office in deciding whether to close a sub-post office. He is aware of those criteria.
818
When a decision is reached on the question whether to close a post office the decision is usually reached at or about the time an existing postmaster decides to retire. Consideration is given to the question whether there is another post office within a mile. If there is another post office within that distance the die is usually cast and all other considerations appear to be irrelevant.
My argument is that the criteria used by the Post Office are far too inflexible and that not sufficient regard is given to the requirement of modern town living. I know that the Post Office argues—it has done so in letters to me—that it must balance its obligation to provide a service to the public with what it describes as its obligation to operate commercially and, if possible, profitably. That argument has been expressed to me repeatedly. I have had it from the Managing Director of the Post Office.
Whenever I have raised the matter with the Minister he has said that it is not his responsibility and that it is the sole responsibility of the Post Office. Invariably, my letter are passed to Mr. Currall, the Managing Director of the Post Office. It is obvious that when considering the question the Post Office tries to strike a fair balance. My argument is that insufficent weight is given to other considerations. Much greater emphasis should be given to human factors such as the age of the population. In some areas where a post office is situated there is a high density of old people. There may be a high proportion of people calling for their pensions. The physical features of the area should be taken into consideration—for instance, whether there is a hilly terrain. More weight should be given to weather conditions. In my area, for example, the weather tends—if I may describe it politely—to be inclement. That is an added difficulty for people who have to walk great distances to collect their pensions. More weight should be given to the availability of transport.
I am not saying that such factors are ignored. I am saying that they are given insufficient weight. The mile ground rule is applied far too rigidly and other factors are dwarfed as a result.
I ask the Minister to consider the criteria. I ask him bluntly whether he considers they are the right criteria and

819
whether the balance is right between the Post Office's obligation to provide a public service and its obligation to act commercially and profitably.
My constituency has suffered from two post office closures in the last three months or so. This follows on the close of the Upper Antley post office some two or three years ago. The sub-post office in Enfield closed in July. This is in Clayton-le-Moors, an urban district in my constituency, an area where there is a high proportion of old people.
There were protests by the old people's welfare committee. The local authority protested. I met the Managing Director of the Post Office after I had met the Chairman of the North-West Postal Board. The chairman of the council, Councillor Hill, and the deputy clerk, Mr. Wells, and Mr. Barrow, a councillor, came to London and met the Chairman and Managing Director of the Post Office. But, regrettably and inevitably, the post office closed. There was a great deal of resentment amongst my constituents as a result. The Clayton-le-Moors Urban District Council passed a resolution urging me to take parliamentary action, and circulated it to all members of the Association of Municipal Authorities. As a result, I have had support from several urban district councils, including Huyton, which I particularly mention because it is in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. I am grateful for that support.
I am not knocking in any way the representatives of the Post Office I met. They were invariably courteous. But one could not help getting the impression that their minds had already been made up because they had applied, first and foremost, this wretched criterion of the mile distance between post offices.
The misfortune for my constituency did not end there. In November, following the July closure in Enfield, the sub-post office in Spring Hill closed. Again there were protests from old people. There was a residents' meeting at the Spring Hill Club. Two of the residents met Mr. Creed, the local head postmaster. Councillors met the Post Office advisory committee. There was a petition of residents, and a particularly important petition signed by about 700 employees of Rists Wires and Cables Limited, a large
820
works in the Spring Hill area, 90 per cent. of whose employees are women. They pointed out that they used this sub-post office to collect their family allowances. Obviously, the closure was particularly hard on the working women in an area where a high proportion of women go out to work.
In addition, the local council representatives of the area met the advisory committee. The petition was passed to Mr. Currall. I am afraid that once again there came the same inevitable reply. I also contacted the Minister who, predictably, told me that it was not his responsibility but that of the Post Office.
I ask the Minister whether he feels that the time has come to change these rather stiff criteria. I accept that the Post Office generally gives a very good service. Certainly, with postal deliveries, it gives an infinitely better service than that provided by most other countries. I accept that private organisations would not keep a sub-post office going any more than they would keep a department store going if it were not making sufficient profits. I take the view, along with many others, that in an organisation of this sort public service ought to be the No. 1 criterion. If it is not, the criteria should be changed. I therefore ask the Minister to use his good offices to help.
When the Post Office talks about profitability, what exactly does it mean? I do not expect the Minister to go into details about the two local issues; they are dead and gone now. The die has been cast, and even the Minister cannot save them at the eleventh hour. When the Post Office talks about profitability, does it mean the saving on the sub-postmaster's salary or does it mean that the Post Office is not making a profit? As I understand it, when it talks about a saving in the £1,000 range—which was the saving in both the cases referred to—it means the saving of the sub-postmaster's salary. Surely this would in some way be redistributed among the other sub-post offices in paying for the increased staff which would result from a greater work-load.
All in all, the closure of a sub-post office is a matter of great concern. It invariably hits old people and those who have got into certain habits. The habits of old people are particularly hard to

821
break. I ask the Minister to say that he will re-examine these criteria, and to say that they are too rigid and inflexible. The process of trying to convince the Post Office that a closure is not in the public interest is invariably useless. I should like him to say how many post offices have been saved since these criteria were brought into existence. I hope that he will deal with these matters seriously, because they are of great concern. I do not expect him to deal with the local issues but with the general topic that I have raised.
12.13 a.m.
The Minister of Posts and Telecommunications (Sir John Eden): I am grateful to the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. Arthur Davidson) for raising this subject. He had written to me about the closure of sub-post offices in his constituency. I am glad he has raised the issue in the House tonight because it gives me an opportunity, which I welcome, of setting out and, I hope, clarifying the main issues which bear upon the whole question.
I am sure the House would wish to be reminded of the statutory position. I take the opportunity to emphasise this because sometimes even hon. Members misunderstand the position in which the Minister finds himself in such issues. The 1969 Post Office Act made the Post Office into a nationalised corporation, with full responsibility for running its day-to-day affairs.
The Act gave it powers to provide postal services, including counter services, and imposed upon it a duty:
"so to exercise its powers as to meet the social, industrial and commercial needs of the British Isles".
while having regard, among other things, "to efficiency and economy". Although the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications, whose office was created by the same Act, has certain reserve powers, it is clear that the nature and scale of counter services in a given locality are management matters for the Post Office. Successive Ministers of both parties have taken the view that it would not be right for them to intervene on detailed sub-office questions. To do otherwise would be to act contrary to the will of Parliament, as expressed in the 1969 Act, and
822
to cut across and so undermine the competence of the Post Office Board in this field.
In short, my rôle is to ensure that the Post Office does its job properly and in accordance with the Act; it is not my function to usurp the Post Office's own rôle as a public authority.
Second, I am sure that hon. Members would wish to be reassured about Post Office policy in relation to the provision and closure of sub-post offices. I hope to mention the criteria which the Post Office observes and about which the hon. Gentleman asked. Essentially, as the Act requires, the Post Office seeks to maintain a balance between the reasonable needs of the local community, on the one hand, and the cost of meeting those needs, on the other. Translated into practical terms, this means that a post office is not normally opened within one mile of an existing office in a town or within two miles of an existing office in the rural area. The hon. Gentleman was critical of this method of measurement. In fact, it is extremely generous. It has been in operation since 1948. It is not intended to be rigid or inflexible. It is intended to provide a yardstick by which the requirements are judged.
These standards, which were defined many years ago and are already generous by comparison with most advanced western countries, are not applied rigidly, and many other factors are taken into account before any sub-office is closed. They include the volume of business transacted at the office concerned, the nature and terrain of the area its serves, and the availability of local bus services I emphasise, in view of what the hon. Gentleman said about old people, that full consideration is given to the needs of local residents and retirement pensioners in particular. Well before the event, local authorities and Post Office advisory committees are advised of any impending closure and the reasons for it; and any views they, or other interested parties, express are given full weight before a final decision is taken.
I hope I have shown that the Post Office does not take lightly a decision to close a sub-office; indeed, it rarely does so at all unless the sub-postmaster resigns and in some cases—for example, when no replacement can be found—the decision is effectively taken out of Post Office

823
hands. Even then it does everything possible to alleviate inconvenience or hardship, sometimes by sending staff from the nearest head post office to transact business at a local hall on one or two days a week. This is a costly way of providing service and can be only a temporary arrangement, but the Post Office willingly shoulders this burden when the need arises.
Similarly, in rural areas, the delivery postman will sell stamps, obtain postal orders, accept letters and parcels and help in other ways as he goes on his rounds. I accept that most pensioners would prefer to collect their pensions at a nearby post office, but the pensioner may choose, instead, to authorise a friend or neighbour to act as agent and to collect the pension on his behalf, or he can arrange to receive periodic payments through a bank account.
Over the last 10 years the total number of sub-offices has fallen only from about 23,200 to 22,500, so the net decline after taking account of openings and closures, is little more than 0·3 per cent. per annum.
These figures do not support the view that has been expressed from time to time that the Post Office has been engaged in a massive onslaught on its own counter services, nor do they suggest that the Post Office is failing in the duties imposed upon it in the 1969 Act. But if further assurance is needed I would remind the House of an exchange that took place last year between the Post Office Users' National Council and the Chairman of the Post Office Corporation. In commenting on Post Office proposals for service changes the council said that:
"it would deplore any policy to thin out sub post offices on a substantial scale. These offices play an important part in the life of the community and it is difficult to see how the numbers could be materially reduced without a marked deterioration in the standard of service to the public".
To that the Chairman of the Post Office replied:
"it is not in fact our intention to reduce the number of offices on such a scale that might in any way be regarded as substantial".
That assurance is a matter of public record and, while it cannot bind the Post Office for ever, I think we may safely leave it to the users' council, under Lord
824
Peddie's vigorous leadership, to maintain a vigilant and continuing interest in this aspect of Post Office activities. I should add that it is always open to any aggrieved party to make representations about sub-office closures to the Post Office Users' National Council. This procedure is used frequently, and brings to the attention of the council the situation affecting the particular area. It enables the council to explore the general proposition and the application of the general criteria to an individual locality.
Thirdly, I fully understand the views advanced by the hon. Member for Accrington in respect of the closures that have taken place in his constituency. I have had representations from Mr. Alan Fern, Mr. George Broadhurst, and other local leaders, so I recognise the strength of local feeling that lies behind those views. At the same time I hope that he will in turn accept that it is not for me to comment on the detailed aspects of the cases in question. I am grateful to him for making clear that he did not expect me to do so tonight. I have, of course, informed myself of the basic facts, including the fact that there are four other sub-offices within about half a mile of the Spring Hill sub-office. I am satisfied that it would not be right for me to intervene. I understand that the users' council has also reviewed the situation and decided that it cannot properly challenge the Post Office decision.
Speaking of sub-post offices and sub-postmasters and the service they give to the local community, I take this opportunity briefly but publicly to thank the sub-postmasters throughout the country for the valuable work they are doing. I know that the hon. Gentleman would wish to be associated with what I am saying. In addition to their other responsibilities there is the work they do on behalf of the Government, not only when providing normal agency services, but also in connection with the special Christmas payments to pensioners and—most recently—the issue of petrol coupons. Counter clerks everywhere, in Crown or sub-post offices, have helped magnificently to ensure that the issuing of petrol coupons was carried through with the maximum of efficiency and the minimum of inconvenience to the public. The Government are grateful to them and to the Post Office for a job well done.

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I am confident that all who have followed this debate and who subsequently read it will be reassured about the policies of the Post Office in relation to sub offices. The Post Office has the difficult ask of balancing costs against needs and I know that it carries this through responsibly and with a proper regard to local circumstances.
Mr. Davidson: The Minister is absolutely right to pay tribute to what the
826
counter clerks have done, particularly in difficult circumstances recently. I associate myself with everything he said in that respect.
Sir J. Eden: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-five minutes past Twelve o'clock.

  Coal Supplies (Power Sations and Steelworks)
  Coal Supplies (Power Sations and Steelworks)
  Continental Shelf (Seismic Data)
  Continental Shelf (Seismic Data)
  Offshore Oil
  Offshore Oil
  Engineers (Registration)
  Engineers (Registration)
  Coal Prices
  Coal Prices
  Fair Trading Act
  Fair Trading Act
  Piccadilly Estates
  Piccadilly Estates
  North Sea oil
  North Sea oil
  Price Commission (Chairman)
  Price Commission (Chairman)
  Natural Gas Conversion (Cheadle)
  Natural Gas Conversion (Cheadle)
  Advance Factory (Alnwick)
  Advance Factory (Alnwick)
  Foreign Companies (United Kingdom Operations)
  Foreign Companies (United Kingdom Operations)
  Gas Oil
  Gas Oil
  SCOTTISH COUNCIL (DEVELOPMENT AND INDUSTRY)
  SCOTTISH COUNCIL (DEVELOPMENT AND INDUSTRY)
  CHINA (OFFICIAL VISIT)
  CHINA (OFFICIAL VISIT)
  HARLESDEN
  HARLESDEN
  OFFICIAL JOURNEYS
  OFFICIAL JOURNEYS
  CENTRAL POLICY REVIEW STAFF
  CENTRAL POLICY REVIEW STAFF
  EPPING
  EPPING
  OIL INDUSTRY
  OIL INDUSTRY
  OIL SUPPLIES
  OIL SUPPLIES
  GOVERNMENT POLICY (PRIME MINISTER'S SPEECHES)
  GOVERNMENT POLICY (PRIME MINISTER'S SPEECHES)
  CBI AND TUC (MEETINGS)
  CBI AND TUC (MEETINGS)
  GOVERNMENT MINISTERS
  GOVERNMENT MINISTERS
  REPUBLIC OF IRELAND (PRIME MINISTER)
  REPUBLIC OF IRELAND (PRIME MINISTER)
DEFENCE
  Expenditure
  Expenditure
  Multiplex Designs Limited
  Multiplex Designs Limited
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Nursery Schools
  Nursery Schools
  Museums and Galleries (Admission Charges)
  Museums and Galleries (Admission Charges)
ENVIRONMENT
  Housing (Single Persons)
  Housing (Single Persons)
  Homeless Persons
  Homeless Persons
  Council Housing (Lodgers)
  Council Housing (Lodgers)
  Council Housing (Modernisation)
  Council Housing (Modernisation)
  Railways
  Railways
  Manchester Underground Railway Link
  Manchester Underground Railway Link
  Inner Ring Road, Darlington
  Inner Ring Road, Darlington
  Compulsory Purchase Inquiries
  Compulsory Purchase Inquiries
  Bus Drivers (Working Hours)
  Bus Drivers (Working Hours)
  Road Fund Licences
  Road Fund Licences
  Museum of Antiquities, Edinburgh
  Museum of Antiquities, Edinburgh
  Car Seat Belts
  Car Seat Belts
  Motor Vehicles (Electric Propulsion)
  Motor Vehicles (Electric Propulsion)
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Crown Agents
  Crown Agents
HOUSE OF COMMONS
  Sittings
  Sittings
  Members' Salaries
  Members' Salaries
SCOTLAND
  Improvement Grants
  Improvement Grants
SOCIAL SERVICES
  Area Health Boards (Staff Representation)
  Area Health Boards (Staff Representation)
  Handicapped Children (Rowntree Family Trust)
  Handicapped Children (Rowntree Family Trust)
  Investigators
  Investigators
  Attendance Allowance
  Attendance Allowance
  Homeless Persons
  Homeless Persons
  Death Grant
  Death Grant
WALES
  Concessionary Bus Fares
  Concessionary Bus Fares

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Ely):
The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

SPECIAL SCHOOLS: ANCILLARY MEDICAL STAFFS
BARONESS MASHAM OF ILTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether from April 1, 1974, they will make local education authorities responsible for the employment (including part-time employment) in special schools of persons trained in professions ancillary to medicine (e.g., physiotherapists and speech therapists).
THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE): No, my Lords. From April 1, 1974, such persons will be employed by Area Health Authorities, who will be required to ensure that such staff continue to be available to special schools.
BARONESS MASHAM OF ILTON: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that Answer, can he give some assurance that the health authorities will take the special schools as priority cases because does he not think that perhaps hospitals will be more of a priority? May I also ask whether the noble Lord does not think that the education committees might not understand staff who have their own children and want to work part-time in special schools?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, certainly we recognise the importance of mantaining the existing services in special schools and through the collaboration arrangements we shall ensure that the health authorities are sensitive to the
1272
needs of schools and work closely with the local health committees.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, is the Minister quite sure that this will be the case, in view of the grave shortage of physiotherapists and speech therapists and, I think, of all those people who occupy posts which are ancillary to medicine?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, the Question is mainly directed to what happens on the transfer, when we hope that services will continue much as they are at present. I recognise that there are shortages in all these categories and, as the noble Baroness will be aware, the Quirk Report, relating to speech therapists, has recently been published. We have also a working party which has just reported on the development of services of that sort.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, does the noble Lord's answer mean that the Government are prepared to give special consideration to departments of speech therapy in universities?—because this is rather an important matter for the future training of such people.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, my right honourable friend is hoping to make a statement on the Government's attitude to the Quirk Report before the end of this month.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, does the noble Lord not think it is slightly anomalous that, say, in a special school you may have 25 members of staff of all kinds, from teachers to caretakers, being employed by the local authority, with, at the same time, perhaps three members of the staff—say, two nurses and a physiotherapist—being employed by the Area Health Authority although they are in fact working full-time in that school?
LORD ABERDARE: No, my Lords, this is one of the steps which is being taken towards the evolution of a comprehensive child health service. It applies to doctors and nurses and, equally, to physiotherapists and speech therapists.
LORD ELTON: My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us how many staffs in the special schools are in the categories which will be transferred from one employer to another? Can he also say what

1273
specific advantages will accrue to them, to the administrators who run the schemes and to the children who, categorically, are by far the most important people under consideration?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I cannot give my noble friend the figures he asks for without notice, but I entirely accept what he said at the end—that the children are the most important people. We believe that establishing a comprehensive child health service will be in the best interests of the children. As my noble friend may know, Professor Court is to chair a committee to advise on the longer-term development of child health services for children of all ages, including handicapped children.
THE EARL OF SWINTON: My Lords, I am sorry to ask the noble Lord another question, but in the case of a local education authority thinking that an excellent nurse or physio-therapist should be employed in a special school and the Area Health Authority deciding they could not provide that, would the noble Lord say who could give the final decision?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, these are matters for the Joint Consultative Committee, provided for in the National Health Service Act.

CONSULTATIVE COMMITTEES' REPORTS
3.6 p.m.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is Government policy, when reports are made by official Consultative Committees and Councils, and Users' Committees, within their terms of reference and concerning the national consumer interest as well as a Departmental one, to refer the report to the Ministers responsible for consumer affairs, in addition to the Departmental Ministers deemed to be affected.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN): My Lords, when a Minister receives a report from
1274
an Advisory or Consultative Committee, either because it is submitted to him direct in accordance with Statute, or because it has been forwarded to him by the body to whom the Committee reports, he is free to consult any of his colleagues whom he considers appropriate.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, might I ask the noble Lord, as the Minister chiefly responsible in this House, I think, for consumer affairs, whether he does not consider it would have been useful if he had read the report of the Airline Users' Committee before answering the Question in this House on December 5?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am afraid I do not remember whether I had read the report or not, at that time. I am not aware of how that particular report was dealt with—whether it was forwarded by the Chairman of the Airline Users' Committee to the Board to which it reports, or whether it was passed on direct by the Chairman of that Board, who happens to be also Chairman of the Civil Aviation Authority, to the Minister. I am afraid I cannot answer that question without notice.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord should be able to. Is he aware that I sent it myself to the Minister for Trade and Consumer Affairs on November 21? Is the Minister also aware that it was quite obvious on December 5 that he had not read the report of this Users' Committee, as his answers were in complete contradiction to what had been found by that Committee?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, the noble Baroness must forgive me if my memory is at fault. What I am asking her is to allow me to check on the situation to see exactly what did happen.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, could the noble Lord the Leader of the House, or the acting Leader, inform the House whether, in view of the existing transport difficulties, the first Question on the Order Paper might not be demoted to the fourth Question?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I am sorry; but I am afraid it is quite outside my power to alter the Rules of the House.

CHRISTMAS RECESS: DATE OF RESUMPTION
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, with the leave of the House, my noble friend the Leader of the House will be making a Statement on energy supplies at a convenient moment after 3.30.
Last week I announced that the House would return from the Christmas Recess on Tuesday, January 22. In view of the present situation, it has been decided that the House should return on Tuesday, January 15. I am sure that noble Lords will appreciate that it may also be necessary to ask the House to return at an even earlier date.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal I beg to move the Motion on the Order Paper.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 44 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken in one day) be suspended until the House adjourns for the Recess at Christmas, and that Standing Order No. 38 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Thursday the 20th of December for the purpose of giving precedence to the two Motions standing in the name of the Baroness Burton of Coventry.—(Earl St. Aldwyn.)
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the House will be grateful to the noble Earl. I understand there is a possibility, in the light of severe congestion of business next week, of some changes. I wonder whether the noble Earl would undertake, if these changes are to be made, to consider making a Statement later this afternoon so that we may have early knowledge of rearrangements, since there is now some delay in the post.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: Certainly, my Lords. Either I myself or the Leader of the House has every intention of making a Statement after my noble friend has made his Statement.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LAND REGISTRY BILL [H.L.]
3.11 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONE): My Lords, I beg to move that the Report be now received.
Moved, That the Report be now received.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Clause 4 [Further provisions as to the functions of the registering authority]:
LORD GARDINER LORD GARDINER moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 5, line 22, leave out subsections (3), (4) and (5) and insert—
("() Upon the payment of such fees as may be determined by the registering authority, those parts of the registers which disclose the name and address of the owner, and the price paid for the property and such other parts of the registers as the Lord Chancellor may direct, shall be open to public inspection.")
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name on the Marshalled List. What I am particularly concerned with in this Amendment is to seek to end the secrecy surrounding the name and address of the owner of the land. May I say at once that if the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor would indicate that on Third Reading of the Bill, he would be prepared to accept the Amendment provided that the words, "price paid for the property" were deleted, I should consider accepting that as being as far as we can get in this House.
It still seems to me extraordinary that while anybody searching the rate book can find out who is the occupier of land, even our largest planning authorities have no means of finding out who is the owner of land. Centre Point was referred to at the Committee stage of the Bill. That was an exceptional case because we all know who is the owner of that Centre Point. In the case of so many properties, while local authorities, public undertakers and so on, would want to know who are the owners of land, it is impossible for them to find out.
At the Committee stage the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor laid great stress on the fact that the Law Commission had not yet come to a final

1277
conclusion about this matter. More than three years ago they published a Working Paper but they have had to go over to other and more important matters. Their Report is not uninteresting. They point out in paragraph 72 of the Report that in Yorskhire the ownership of land has been publicly known for something like 90 years, because in Yorskhire alone they have had the Yorkshire Deeds Registry, and that has always been open to public inspection. Dealing with the matter generally, they say, in paragraph 77:
"… considerable support exists for some relaxation in the existing rules, particularly in relation to the non-disclosure of the names and addresses of registered proprietors."
In dealing with financial matters they say in paragraph 81:
"The majority of those who object to the register being available to public inspection do so on the ground that a registered proprietor does not wish certain financial matters, such as prices, rents and details of mortgages, to be disclosed to all and sundry. If it were possible to exclude these financial matters from public scrutiny we can see no real objection to making the remaining part of the register wholly open to public inspection."
That view is shared by a substantial number of those who have written to us.
It is the object of this Amendment to provide that at least the name and address should be open to public inspection, together with such other parts of the register as the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor might decide. In paragraph 82 the Law Commissioners say this:
"In almost every other country in the world registers of titles or of land are fully open to public inspection. Lawyers in these countries find it hard to understand why we retain a private register in this country since the advantages of an open one are to them so obvious."
Then, dealing with Scotland, they say:
"A system of registration of deeds has been in force since the early part of the 17th century. Deeds are registered in the register of Sasines and this is open to public inspection. Both the Reid and the Henry Committees on Registration of Title to Land in Scotland thought that, if registration of title were introduced in Scotland, the register should be open to public inspection."
Under the system in Northern Ireland while registration of title to land operates only in respect of certain titles, that is open to public inspection, and the Law Commission say in paragraph 84:
1278
"The Lowry Committee on Registration of Title to Land in Northern Ireland have recommended that compulsory registration under the existing system be extended and a majority considered that the register should remain fully public."
It seems extraordinary that where practically the whole world, including Scotland and Northern Ireland, makes no secret of who owns land, we alone should do so. The first proposal made by the Law Commission at the end of their publication is:
"That on application being made by any member of the public, and on payment of a small fee, the Registry would notify to the applicant the name and address of the registered proprietor of any registered title."
My Lords, I beg to move.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, it is absurd that in these days it should be impossible to find out who are the owners of land. All sorts of people want to do all sorts of intelligent things in towns in our countryside and are thoroughly frustrated by the great difficulty of finding out who is the owner of a particular piece of land. I well remember that in Wales people from a small town came to me because they were grossly hindered over a piece of land which was getting in a terrible state and whose ownership could not be discovered. I suggested that they seized it, because the only person who could object would be the owner who would therefore have to reveal himself. They were rather shy about doing that and I therefore suggested it be seized in my name. That night an all-Party committee of locals crept out and fenced in the land and put up a notice: "Seized by Lord St. Davids", and left the locality to discover the fact in the morning. Shortly afterwards I received a letter from the real owner of the land asking me what I meant taking this action, thus revealing who he was; otherwise I do not know that we should ever have found out.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, we discussed this in Committee and I promised to look at the matter, and I will promise again to examine it. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, has to some extent got the wrong end of the stick here. First of all, there are two classes of case where this matter has given trouble, and I have been careful to deal with both of them in what I think is the proper way and not the

1279
wrong way. The first is the right—I recognise it is a moral right and it will soon become a legal right as a result of the action I have taken with my right honourable friend—of a tenant to know of the identity of his landlord. Mr. Rippon announced that in the House of Commons, I think in early November but certainly some time ago, and that will be part of his Bill when it goes through Parliament. If under this Bill it had been left to the tenant to find out who his landlord was, he would never had found it out under the noble and learned Lord's Amendment, for a reason that I shall give in a moment.
Secondly, there is difficulty in criminal cases, for reasons which I gave on, I think, Second Reading, but certainly at Committee stage, and that is dealt with in the Bill in the three subsections which this Amendment would leave out, substituting this wider Amendment which I do not think is quite so apt to the purpose. The noble Lord is quite right, of course, in saying that the Law Commission have issued a Working Paper on this subject. They issued a Working Paper in which the professions were to be consulted, and two alternative solutions, neither of which is identical with that now proposed by the noble Lord, were put forward. It is equally true, as I told the House on Committee—I expect the noble Lord knew it already—that this had been postponed because I had to ask the Law Commission to transfer their attention to matters like gazumping, which I thought carried a higher priority.
The matter, at present, stands like this: that the two professions are hostile and the matter will prove to be controversial, and I suggested to the noble and learned Lord on Committee—and I think it was not an unreasonable suggestion—that he should pursue the procedure which he himself has constantly recommended when he was dealing with, for instance, the proposals of the Law Reform Committee or the Criminal Law Revision Committee, in allowing the Law Commission procedure to work itself out. After all, he is the father of the Law Commission, and I think he has some reason to be proud of his offspring. I suggest that it would be better if he gave his offspring a chance to carry
1280
out its natural functions without interference.
The fact is that this proposal, as it stands, would not achieve the purpose which the noble and learned Lord has in mind; and, in fact, nothing which would be within the ambit of this Bill would. I have already pointed this out in relation to landlord and tenant. In fact, if anybody wished to conceal the ownership of land he would simply put it in the hands of trustees or a nominee, and all you would see on the register would be the name of the trustee or the nominee. I concede at once, that there are reasons, or may be reasons, why the true owners of land ought to be capable of identity, but this Amendment will not achieve it. The only thing that this will achieve is that the person who appears on the register can be seen. This is a very bad way of achieving that object, if it be desired to do it.
It would have the side effect, as I pointed out in Committee, of obstructing some of the purposes of the Bill, the main purpose of which is to allow the Land Registry to get on with the process of registration. Less than half the land at the moment, viewed on a population basis, and rather less than one-tenth of the land in this country (by which I mean in England and Wales) on an area basis, is registered. The purpose of this Bill is to encourage registration. The effect of the Amendment would be to divert extremely scarce manpower to carrying out the purpose of letting people know who the nominal owner of the land is without telling them either who the beneficial owner of the land is or, I think—alhough I am a child in these matters—who the various other people with interests in the land are, such as the tenants. So it would be a fairly useless operation.
There is one other point. I myself find the obligation to disclose the exact financial transactions, which are referred to in the latter part of the Amendment, objectionable as well. It would be only those who chose to enter the financial transactions, which are not universally in the Land Register, who would reveal them; and those who wished to hide them would still be able to hide them. Those who have entered them have entered them in reliance on their present

1281
confidentiality, so they would be penalised for having done something on the faith of the law which is now to be removed. I understood the noble and learned Lord to say that this part of his Amendment would not be one for which he would die in the last ditch (to use a metaphorical expression), but I think that that objection still applies to the proposal as it stands. I wish to make it absolutely plain that I am not in the least hostile to a proposal that the true owner of the land should be known, or knowable, in any given case; but to select registered land, which is less than a tenth, area-wise, of the land in the country for different treatment from the rest seems to me to be confusing and probably unfair.
I suggest that the Law Commission should be allowed to get on with their work. As I say, I am not opposing this as a principle; on the contrary, I think if a workmanlike way of considering this matter were put forward, and if it were a matter of widespread consent to introduce a workmanlike measure on those lines I am far from saying I would oppose it. I might be one of the first to support it. I would ask the noble Lord to think of this issue again. I will promise to think of it again in the meantime, and I will consult the Registrar on the subject further, although I did carry out my promise to do so before. At the moment, I do not think that this Amendment will do although it may be that something else will.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, I think that has been a useful discussion. It is clear that if I omitted from the Amendment the words, "and the price paid for property", the noble and learned Lord would still not be prepared to accept the Amendment. I cannot, I am afraid, accept all of his arguments. I cannot, any more than I could at the Committee stage, accept that there would be something wrong in treating differently those who are registered from those who are not when he himself, by this Bill, is providing that the Director of Public Prosecutions can be given access to the Register only, of course, in the case of those whose title is registered. I should have thought that exactly the same argument applies.
The noble and learned Lord has asked me to leave this matter to
1282
the Law Commission without interference. That is a somewhat strange phrase, because, of course, the Law Commission would have completed their report on the subject by this time if the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, had not interfered with them, prevented them from doing so and directed their attention to other matters. My Lords, I do not think I can carry this further to-day. As the House knows, there is a Private Member's Bill in the other place directed solely to this question of the publicity of the Land Register. In any case, this Bill has to be considered in the other place. I do not think, therefore, that I can carry the matter any further, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 6 [Functions of the Chief Land Registrar]:
3.29 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 7, line 2, leave out ("under the Land Registration Act 1925 and the rules made thereunder").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I think it would be convenient for me to discuss my Amendments Nos. 2, 3, 4 and 6, together. I hope that I can persuade the House that these are purely drafting Amendments, but I should like, for the sake of candour, to tell the House what they are about. There is a Committee which deals with the remuneration of solicitors for uncontentious business. It is a Statutory Committee which exists under the Solicitors Act, and the Chief Land Registrar is a member of it for the purpose of the business which comes within his jurisdiction. If these Amendments were not passed, instead of his continuing to be a member of that Committee for that limited purpose, the whole new Land Registry Board would be a member of the Committee for that purpose; and that is thought inappropriate. I therefore beg to move. Unless the noble and learned Lord or any other noble Member of the House thought there was something to discuss, I do not think there is any question of principle in it at all.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I have explained Amendment No. 3. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 5, after ("jurisdiction") insert ("under the Land Registration Act 1925 and the rules made thereunder").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No.4.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 10, leave out ("of that Act").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 10 [The initial debt]:
3.31 p.m.
LORD GARDINER LORD GARDINER moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 10, line 13, at end insert—
() The initial debt shall be arrived after crediting the registering authority with the amount by which the income of the existing Land Registry has, on the vesting date, exceeded its expenditure: and no rent shall be charged by the Government to the registering authority for a building the cost of which has already been paid for in full out of fees charged to the users of the Land Registry.")
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 5. I cannot promise not to ask the House to express a view on this matter because this Amendment relates to a simple question of financial probity. The Land Registry has existed for many years and its financial remit has always been to ensure that its revenue and its outgoings balance, taking one year with another. It is intended that the same shall apply to the hived-off Land Registry, because Clause 9 of the Bill provides:
"It shall be the duty of the registering authority so to conduct its affairs as to secure that, taking one year with another, its revenue is not less than sufficient to meet its outgoings properly chargeable to revenue account."
It has not in some respects been very successful in the past, because experience has shown that Lord Chancellors have been too cautious and have either put up fees too soon or put them up by too great an amount—though I am sure that all Lord Chancellors have done their best. Therefore, there came a time when the fees of the Land Registry users had accumulated a surplus, and this surplus, whether properly or not, was used by the Land Registry to build its buildings in
1284
London—the Land Registry. It is common ground that that building was built entirely out of fees paid by the users, which were supposed to cover only outgoings.
Secondly, over many years a surplus was built up, which in my time was some £4 million—again, an overcharge on the users of the Land Registry. And owing to the extraordinary number of purchases and sales of property, and the inflation of property values, in the last two years the revenues exceeded the expenditure by £8 million. I should have thought it was a matter of simple financial honesty that, if the Land Registry is to be hived off, in the statement of accounts between it and the Government the Land Registry should be given credit for what by now must be about £12 million. It is going for provincial properties, and so on, to assume certain debts, and the initial debt is laid down, though not of course quantified, in the Bill. Naturally, each year where there was a surplus it was paid into the Consolidated Fund. But nobody is asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer to draw a cheque on the Consolidated Fund or to pay anything out of it. This is a simple matter of accounts. That is to say, in arriving at the initial debt which under the Bill the new Land Registry is to assume, is it not clear that financial probity necessitates credit being given by the Treasury for this £12 million?
The next point relates to the building. As it happens at the moment, with computerisation and one thing and another, the Land Registry requires to use only one-third of the Land Registry building. What is proposed in effect by the Bill is, first, that the Treasury should seize the two-thirds of the Land Registry for itself, without paying a penny for it, although the whole building was built by the fees of the users of the Land Registry. Secondly, as to the part which the new Land Registry is to continue to use—the one-third—not only is the new Land Registry not getting its own building for nothing, but it is being charged by the Treasury £150,000 a year for the right to use the premises which it itself built entirely out of the fees of the users of the Land Registry.
I can well understand, as I made plain, the desire of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor to have this Bill, the only point of which is to provide that in

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future the employees of the Land Registry will not be civil servants; and then be will not be tied by promises by budding Prime Ministers; he can go straight ahead with the full campaign to extend land registration to the whole of the country. But in effect what appears to have happened is that the Treasury have insisted that, if he really wants to do that, it is going to make it financially extremely stringent for him and for the new Land Registry to do. Well, we all know what the Treasury is. I should have thought that if a financial chicanery of this kind had been committed by somebody in the City of London, he would not last there very long. It is, I suppose, the responsibility of all Parliamentarians to ensure that Governments act honestly. I do not see how it can possibly be right if this body, which in the past has been told to operate simply on the basis that it breaks even as to revenue and expenditure taking one year with another, when it is hived off, is found, erroneously at the expense of the users of the Land Registry, not to have fulfilled its statutory duty because it has made a profit of £12 million.
Clearly in the accountancy—and it is only a matter of accountancy—in arriving at the initial debt which the new Land Registry is required to assume, it should be given credit for that figure; and also, I should have thought, for at least the cost of building the Land Registry. But when it is found, further, that not only are they not getting any credit for that, but the Treasury has the impertinence to charge them a rent of £150,000 a year for the privilege of occupying the building which they themselves built out of the fees of the users, this seems to be morally indefensible. I beg to move.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I think my noble friend wishes to make a Statement, so I will not proceed with the debate now.

THE ENERGY SITUATION
3.38 p.m.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD WINDLESHAM): My Lords, the following Statement is now being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister:
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"With permission, I will make a Statement on the energy situation.
"The ban on overtime working by the coalminers has led to a sharp fall in coal supplies to the power stations which are now running at nearly 40 per cent. below the expected level and are well below normal levels of consumption. Though the electricity supply industry started the winter with good stocks of coal, those stocks are now having to be run down at the rate of about 1 million tons a week at the present rate of electricity use, even after the restrictions already imposed.
"To conserve coal stocks my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry instructed the oil companies, on December 5, to increase supplies of fuel oil to the power stations. But fuel oil supplies are also under pressure, and a still larger allocation to the electricity industry could be only at the expense of severe further cuts to other users of fuel oil.
"Deliveries of coal and of oil to the power stations are seriously threatened by the industrial action of train drivers started yesterday by ASLEF.
"The ability of the electricity industry to deal with the consequences of these disruptions of supply has been further constrained by the action of the power engineers to restrict out-of-hours working.
"It is clear that, so long as the industrial action by the coalminers and the train drivers continues, stocks of fuel at the power stations will continue to be run down at a rate which could, before many weeks had passed, reach a point when large-scale interruption and disruption of electricity supply became unavoidable.
"In this situation the Government have a responsibility to take the measures necessary to safeguard the electricity system from major disruption, to prevent essential services from being placed in jeopardy, and to ensure the maintenance of a reasonable level of industrial activity.
"The Government judge that this requires further savings amounting to 20 per cent. of electricity consumption, in addition to the measures already announced by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Trade

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and Industry. This will inevitably require reductions in consumption in homes, in industry and in commerce.
"First, in homes. The Government the asking all domestic consumers to restrict the use of electricity for space heating in the home to one room, and then only if the householder has no other form of heating available.
"Second, in industry and commerce. From next Monday, December 17, large, continuous process users will be limited to 65 per cent. of their normal electricity consumption each week. Electricity supplies for other industry and for commercial premises will, in general, be limited to a total of any five days over the two weeks ending December 30. After that, from December 31, they will be limited to three specified days each week, which will be consecutive, and the days will be selected on the basis of scheduled drawn up for each Electricity Board area. On the days when firms are free to use electricity, they will not be able to work longer hours than usual. Maintenance or other work not involving the use of electricity could continue on other days and most shops and offices would also be able to open on those days, though they would not be able to use electricity.
"Orders to give effect to the restrictions on industry and commerce will be made over the next few days. The Orders will name certain essential businesses which will be exempt from these restrictions, and specify other special purposes for which the use of electricity would be permitted at all times; for example, the operation of fire-fighting equipment, computers, cheque-sorting machinery and office machinery.
"From next Monday, B.B.C. Television and Independent Television Services will close down not later than 10.30 p.m. each evening, save over Christmas and on New Year's Eve.
"In addition, the Government asks that everyone should economise in the use of all fuels and save all the electricity they can. There are innumerable ways in which all of us can do this: by keeping rooms at lower temperatures and heating them for shorter periods; by switching off lights and by not using electrical appliances unless absolutely
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necessary; by setting thermostats controlling water-heaters, refrigerators and deep-freezers at the most economical levels; by reducing lighting levels in theatres and other places of entertainment. These are only examples: unless we can save electricity—and indeed all fuels—in every aspect of our daily lives, we shall have to impose yet further restrictions on business.
"Mr. Speaker, you will have noted that the measures we propose do not include rota cuts or periods of electricity disconnection. The Government have thought it right to avoid such cuts as long as possible, particularly in view of the fact that the ban on out-of-hours working by the power engineers would mean that any cuts would have to be highly unselective and would be bound to affect essential services. But I must warn the House and the country. If we failed to achieve the necessary savings in electricity consumption as a result of the reduction in domestic consumption for which we are asking and the other measures I have announced, frequent periods of electricity disconnection would become unavoidable. Essential industries and vital services would be cut indiscriminately. Young and old alike, at home, at work, or in hospitals, would all be hit.
"Mr. Speaker, I should also like to say a few words to the House about the oil situation.
"The restrictions on oil exports by the Arab oil-producing countries affect the whole world: the developed countries of North America, Europe and Japan and the developing countries in Africa, Asia and Central and South America.
"We have been less hard hit than some other European countries, partly because (given normal levels of supply for other fuels) we are less dependent than they are on oil, and partly because the Arab producers have applied their reduction less severely to us.
"But, when the whole world is short of oil, we cannot escape entirely.
"This month we shall probably get about 85 tons of oil for every 100 tons we expected. The figure may be lower in January.
"That is why we have had to ask everyone to economise in the use of

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oil in the home, in the office, in the factory, in the shops, on the road. But I can confirm that, on the basis of the level of supplies we now expect, the allocations of petrol and derv to garages will continue at their present levels throughout January.
"The situation has been greatly helped by the savings which drivers have made. I should like to take this opportunity to thank the public for their co-operation. It is vital that these efforts should continue. The savings in the demand for petrol over the last few days have amounted to about 15 per cent. As a result, I can announce to-day that, although plans for rationing will proceed so that it could be introduced at short notice, it will not be introduced this side of the New Year.
"The improvement of the supply position clearly depends upon progress towards a peace settlement in the Middle East. The peace conference is due to open in Geneva on December 16. We are going and will continue to do all we can, by diplomatic means, to promote the success of the conference and to make the Arab oil-producing countries aware of the hardship and the damage which the restrictions inflict.
"We must hope that the shortage of supplies will be reversed before long. We cannot expect the sharp rise in oil prices to be reversed. This is bound to have a very damaging effect upon our balance of payments, which is in any case running in substantial deficit at present.
"Until a few weeks ago we could foresee a progressive diminution in the balance-of-payments deficit during the course of next year. But that prospect has now disappeared. We shall have to find—and therefore to earn—much more foreign exchange in order to pay for the same amount of oil.
"In the long run some of the money will, we hope, come back to us in payment for increased exports to the oil-producing countries, who will need the goods and services we can provide for their own development.
"And here again we in Britain are more fortunate than most. Within five
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to seven years we can look forward to bringing two-thirds of the amount of oil we need in from the North Sea. This will in due course make an enormous improvement in our balance-of-payments position.
"But that does not help in the immediate future. In the short run, if we have to have oil, as we do, and we have to pay more for it, as we shall, the country will have less to spend on other things from abroad. The Chancellor of the Exchequer will be making a Statement in the House on Monday about fresh measures to achieve these purposes. For the time being we shall have to postpone some of the hopes and aims we have set ourselves for expansion and for our standard of living.
"Other countries will be similarly affected by the rise in oil prices and will be having to consider the implications for their balance of payments. In this situation there is an acute danger that, if we all independently resort to deflationary measures for the sake of our individual balances of payments, we shall set off a disastrous slump in the level of world trade. It will require all the effort and all the farsightedness of which the international community is capable to escape this consequence.
"I leave for Copenhagen this evening for the Community summit meeting to-morrow. We shall be discussing the energy situation in all its aspects; but this particular aspect will be very much in mind.
"The House will have seen that in his speech in London last night Dr. Kissinger announced a proposal for an Energy Action Group, which would have as its goal the assurance of required energy supplies at reasonable cost. Under this proposal the nations of North America, Europe and Japan would co-operate in a programme to rationalise and conserve the use of energy, develop alternative sources of supply, and give existing producers an incentive to increase supply. I shall be discussing this with the other Community Heads of Government at Copenhagen; but I can say here and now that the British Government warmly welcomes this imaginative proposal, which is in the great tradition of the Marshall Plan after the war.

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"I must apologise to the House for so long a Statement; but it seemed to me that the House should be given as full a statement of the position as possible, as a basis for our debate next week."
3.53 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for reading this lengthy Statement, which is of such gravity that I find it very difficult to make any comment now. Since it is clear that we are in a situation of the greatest seriousness we shall, of course, need to debate the whole position at a very early date, and at that time perhaps we can consider how we got into that position.
I have two points only that I would ask about now. First, there is a reference to cutting to 65 per cent. the supply of the continuous process industries who are dependent on electricity. I do not know whether the noble Lord can answer this point, but it would appear to mean that some industries, if they are continuous processing industries dependent upon electricity, would have to cease operating entirely. Secondly, referring to the rightly described imaginative statement of Doctor Kissinger, I was a little concerned, since the Prime Minister is going to Copenhagen tomorrow, at the suggestion that the Energy Action Group would be considering giving existing producers the incentive to increase supply. I hope this is economic and financial, and not political. I hope it does not herald new pressure on Israel. I make that point as a warning, because it could be political.
My Lords, I understand that the Chief Whip has indicated that there may be some rearrangement of business. Clearly there will need to be at least a whole day's debate on this subject. At the same time, we ought not just to push out of the way the debate on Northern Ireland. Perhaps at some stage later on we shall have a Statement.
3.55 p.m.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, we on these Benches also thank the noble Lord the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement which has been made in another place. So far as concerns the welcome which has been given by the Prime Minister to Dr. Kissinger's
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initiative, we also endorse that very warmly. We hope the discussions with our partners in Europe and the United States may concentrate on the management of demand as well as the finding of alternative sources of supply. It is to be hoped that we may learn something from the work already done on this in the United States, particularly the recommendations made by the Office of Emergency Preparedness to President Nixon on the means whereby consumption of energy sources in the United States can be reduced by 30 per cent. We could learn a lot from that, and I hope that the Government will study the recommendations made to President Nixon.
My Lords, so far as the domestic situation is concerned, we will go along with the reductions which the Government have announced because we are quite sure that they are necessary. Indeed, my noble friends and honourable friends in another place have been asking for measures to be taken along these lines for some considerable time past. As regards the use of electricity for space heating, would not the Government consider going one stage further, and placing a complete bar on the unrestricted sale of electrict heaters for use in homes during the crisis for as long as it lasts? So far as industry is concerned, may I ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House for a little clarification on the question of how much electricity people will be able to use during the three days per week permitted after December 30? If they have been working a certain amount of overtime during December, or in the winter months leading up to the emergency, will they be allowed, under the phrase "longer hours than usual", to continue working that amount of overtime during the three days they are going to work? Secondly, can the noble Lord say how those who are exempted from these restrictions because, for example, they are working with computers or office machinery, will be able to comply with these restrictions, and how the restrictions on ordinary consumers who are not entitled to concessions will be enforced?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, both the noble Lords. Lord Shepherd and Lord Avebury, referred to Dr. Kissinger's speech. I believe it would be best not to add to what was said in the Statement, since the Prime Minister referred to the

1293
fact that this would be discussed by the Heads of State and the Heads of Government of the European Community who are to be meeting in Copenhagen shortly.
As to the large continuous process industries, the intention is to try to enable such industries (for example aluminium smelters) to continue to keep going, but on the basis of a reduction in power supply, using 65 per cent. of the electricity consumption that they would normally require. If I can add to this information in the debate next week I will.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked about the sale of appliances for domestic space heating. I will take note of that point and pass it on to my right honourable friend. The Government are concerned primarily with the use of appliances rather than their sale, but I take the noble Lord's point. As to the hours of work, I should like a little notice in order to be able to give an accurate answer to the point the noble Lord has raised. Subject to correction, my understanding would be that the normal hours of work over the year should be regarded as the hours of work to which the premises would be confined; otherwise it would be possible, by very substantial overtime, to get round the aim and purpose of the restrictions.
My Lords, with reference to exemptions, there are a whole number of these, mainly by category. These will be included in the Order when it is tabled; the Order will be available to your Lordships when we have our debates next week. Where employers are in some doubt, whether in commerce or industry, as to whether or not they fall within an exempted category, we hope they will get in touch with the regional officers of the Department of Trade and Industry, and consult with them. As for the business for next week, it would be helpful if my noble friend the Chief Whip made a Statement.

BUSINESS CHANGES
4.0 p.m.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, earlier this afternoon, I promised to make a Statement about the arrangement of business next week. It has been agreed through the usual channels that all Northern Ireland business should be shifted
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to Wednesday, December 19 in place of the two Short Debates. I am glad to say that the noble Lords who were to move Motions have kindly agreed to postpone them until after the Recess. I should add that this will require an Order of your Lordships' House, as the House has agreed that two Short Debates should be held each month and they will not now be held during the month of December. In addition, the Third Reading of the Safety of Sports Grounds Bill will also be postponed until Wednesday, December 19. This will allow us to hold a full debate on the economic and industrial situation on Tuesday, December 18.
I hope, my Lords, that these arrangements will commend themselves.
LORD WIGG: My Lords, may I revert to the Statement made earlier by the Leader of the House? Is he not aware that the Statement he has made today is one of the gravest that has been made to Parliament for very many years? Is he not aware that it underlines the complete collapse of the Government's economic policy, and that it only goes as far as to deal with remedies following on the collapse of that policy? Do the Government not agree that, somehow or other, they have to make a fresh start? In order to introduce a new atmosphere into industry, would not a fresh start be for the Government to announce that they are going to repeal in toto the Industrial Relations Act, and then to initiate talks to see what parts of it can be saved?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, reference to the Industrial Relations Act was made when I repeated the Home Secretary's Statement on the continuation of the State of Emergency yesterday. My reply now is the same as my reply then. This is a much wider and graver situation due to a whole number of causes, and to try to simplify things in these black and white terms does a disservice to the public as a whole.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, does not the noble Lord think that, as the situation is very grave, the sort of negative measures which he proposes are completely insufficient, because without a package deal which would embrace what the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, said just now, it is quite impossible to deal with this situation? Does the noble Lord the

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Leader of the House remember Lord Gowrie's speech, which was complacent to a degree, only six weeks ago?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the Government have no intention of denying the gravity of the situation. I said that yesterday, and I repeat it now. The Prime Minister's Statement shows that the Government have analysed with the greatest possible care the situation in which we find ourselves, and have brought forward what we believe to be the correct measures to deal with the situation. As the Statement says, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be making a further Statement on Monday, and since our debate is to be on Tuesday we shall be able to take that into account when we have the general debate. My Lords, the Statement to-day represents our judgment of the situation. While other noble Lords will no doubt have their judgment, the Government believe that the measures described in the Statement are the correct way to deal with the situation with which we are faced.
VISCOUNT WATKINSON: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that industry will want to co-operate with the Government and will see this as a challenge to their ingenuity and ability? We have seen worse before and have got through. However, might I ask my noble friend this question. Clearly, the initial situation will be confused until industry sees exactly how cuts can be applied, and so on. Would he perhaps give an assurance that the Department of Trade and Industry, the Department of Employment and the other Ministries concerned, will do all they possibly can to brief industry now on the precise action which they want it to take? If such briefing takes place, I am sure that industry will be 100 per cent. willing to co-operate.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the noble Lord speaks with great experience as an industrialist as well as a former member of the Government, and I am encouraged to hear what he has to say. The Government Departments concerned will want to do exactly as he has asked and to keep in the closest possible touch. The measures are to operate in two stages. There is an interim stage up till the end of the year, with five days' work until the end of the year at the choice
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of the employer. This will give more flexibility in the interim stage before the 3-day working comes in from January 1.
LORD BERNSTEIN: My Lords, will th Leader of the House promise that on Tuesday he will tell us in clear terms how the Government propose to deal with this matter? We have heard a tale of woe which will give no satisfaction. We should like to know what the Government proposals are for dealing with the present situation.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the Statement was already a full one, and the Prime Minister apologised for its length. I should do the same. What it did was to explain the causes of the situation, to give the facts for which the public have been asking. I believe it was quite right to do that, and to explain what measures were being taken —voluntary measures and measures backed by the force of law—to restrict the consumption of electricity. That is the narrow point contained in the Statement, and it is of very great public importance. It is essential that it is widely understood and that the reasons behind it are understood. In a wider debate we can cover some of the points which were raised in questions just now following the Statement.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that many people will agree with the views of my noble friends, that the Government are really at the moment dealing with the symptoms and not with the disease? Is he also aware that in that context many of us will welcome his statement, or that of the Prime Minister, that the proposal of Dr. Kissinger for an Energy Action Group will be received sympathetically by Her Majesty's Government? Will the noble Lord the Leader of the House assure the House that at the Conference in Copenhagen the Prime Minister will press the present proposal from Dr. Kissinger with greater enthusiasm than was given to his earlier proposal for an Atlantic Charter to which Her Majesty's Government showed a notably luke-warm reaction? Can he further assure the House that at the Conference in Copenhagen the Prime Minister will, with his European colleagues, not allow the Dutch Government in this oil situation to stand on its own,

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but that he will impress on his European colleagues the necessity to press for a common policy towards the Arabs on the oil production question?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the Prime Minister's words warmly welcomed Dr. Kissinger's proposal. That answers the first part of the question. The Heads of State and the Heads of Government will be meeting as members of the enlarged Community. They are aware of their status as members of the European Community, as well as the responsibility they have for the welfare of their own nations, and they will come to a judgment as to how these two matters should be held in balance.
LORD PARGITER: My Lords, would the noble Lord consider recommending to his right honourable friend that the rigidity of Phase 3 might be eased a little with regard to the mines, so that within the total amount of money available something might be done about the base rate of miners instead of so much importance being attached to social hours and things of that sort?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, many people are asking themselves whether the limits of Phase 3 might prove too generous in the months ahead.
LORD HANKEY: My Lords, will the Government consider bringing the Energy Action Group, which is an excellent idea, under the aegis of O.E.C.D., where there are premises available and a highly skilled, trained staff accustomed to dealing with energy prolems, especially as it is an organisation of which the United States, Canada, Japan as well as all the European countries are members?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the proposal was made only last night, but I will draw that suggestion to the attention of those of my right honourable friends who are concerned.

LAND REGISTRY BILL [H.L.]
4.9 p.m.
Report stage resumed.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, may we now return to the fascinating topic of the Amendment of
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the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, to the Land Registry Bill. The learned Lord referred to this matter in somewhat extravagant terms of "financial probity", "behaving honestly"—and I forget the third phrase. There is a question of principle involved. I do not think it has anything to do with honesty, so long as one applies one's mind honestly to the solution of the question. Although I would bow with respect and admiration to the noble and learned Lord on matters of law, and indeed on many other matters, I do not think I give him any marks for mathematics or chartered accountancy.
The noble and learned Lord has made two points and they are cognate, and I should like to state them as I see them. It is of course perfectly true that between the year 1900 and the year 1927 the enormous building in Lincoln's Inn Fields which is called the Land Registry building —a very small part of which is now occupied by the Land Registry, the rest I think being occupied by the Public Records Office—was bought out of the fees of the then Land Registry, paid for by those who at that time were transferring land. That building became a Crown asset as long ago as 1927, and, as I say, the Land Registry still occupies a small part of it.
The Land Registry as a continuing business is now being hived off under the new Land Registry Board, for reasons which I have explained and which the House has approved. But the noble and learned Lord comes along and says that as a matter of financial probity a gift, amounting to I do not know how many millions of pounds under this head, ought to be given to the new Board for the benefit of those who are going to enjoy the advantages of land registration and land transfer in the future. I suppose there could be a kind of sentimental plausibility about it if they were the same people who had spent their money transferring land between 1900 and 1927. But I should be very much surprised myself if one of them were the same person. I cannot for the life of me see why the transferors of land in the future, who are, of course, a very worthy class in the community but not a particularly indigent class, should be given a gift out of the taxpayers' money of £150,000 a year, representing a capital value of I do not

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know how many millions, simply because people who transferred land between 1900 and 1927 happened to have bought a building which subsequently became Crown property and part of which is now occupied for the purpose of land registration. I believe that if the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, were standing where he used to stand as Financial Secretary to the Treasury—and long will I remember his brilliant and fascinating speeches in another place when he did so—and were advising the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, about his accountancy, he would frankly use terms about his claim that this was an example of financial probity which I would not venture to use in public debate in Parliament. I would advise the noble and learned Lord to consult his noble friend about this topic.
The other point which the noble and learned Lord made is almost exactly the same. He thinks that because the Land Registry made a profit of £12 million—that is his figure, not mine; I am not sure that plus or minus a few pounds it matters very much whether he is right or wrong, so I will not quarrel with him about that—before being handed over, which, incidentally, allowed me to reduce the fees by 20 per cent. last summer, a gift should be made out of taxpayers' money to those who are going to transfer land after the hiving off.
I do not believe that either proposition is tenable. I do not believe that it would be tenable if it was a private firm handing over a subsidiary company to a new owner. I do not think it would be tenable if it were a local authority, and I do not think it is tenable on the basis of public finance. I hope that after that explanation the noble and learned Lord —whom the whole House holds in respect bordering upon awe, and I am the leader of them in this respect—on reflection will feel that this is not a subject on which he need press the House to a Division. If he were to do so, I should be prepared to advise my noble friends to vote against it, not merely on the grounds of sound mathematics but even on the grounds of financial probity.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, I am afraid that I must ask the House to express a view about this. Of course, one can only regard the users of the Land Registry, naturally, as a body; but they have always been told, and indeed Parliament has enacted, that the finances of the Land Registry are to be so conducted—which really means the size of the fees charged—as to secure on revenue account that its expenditure and its revenue balance taking one year with another. I am perfectly certain that if, on it being decided to hive off the Land Registry to a new body on exactly the same financial terms, over the years there had been a deficit, the first thing on which the Treasury would have absolutely insisted before agreeing to the hiving off is that that deficit must form part of the initial debt with which the new Land Registry was to start, and I think that would have been quite right. Whether the users change from day to day is not the point. It cannot be right that, because Lord Chancellors have put up fees too soon or charged too much and there is an existing surplus, that should not be allowed for in the accounts as against what is called in the Bill the initial debt. Certainly in the past, where in times of inflation there has been a deficit for a year or two and then the fees have been put up, the Treasury have, I think quite naturally and properly, always insisted that the increase in fees should provide not merely that they should break even in that year, but that the past deficit should be made up. Surely what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
When it comes to the Treasury charging the Land Registry £150,000 a year for the use of a part only of the building for which the Land Registry have already paid themselves, I should have thought there was no answer to that, and I am not surprised that the noble and learned Lord has not been able to find one. I sympathise very much with him in his position; he wants to get the Bill through, and we all know what the Treasury are. But they really should not be allowed to get away with this one. I must ask the House to express an opinion.
4.18 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 5) shall be agreed to?
Schedule 2 [Amendment of Enactments in Connection with Reorganisation of Land Registry Business]:
4.25 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, T rise to move Amendment No. 6, which I have already explained.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 33, at end insert ("and the following enactments in the Solicitors Act 1957, that is to say, in section 56, subsections (1) and (2).").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 55; Not-Contents, 73.

CONTENTS

Airedale, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Peddie, L.

Amherst, E.

Faringdon, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Ardwick, L.

Gaitskell, B.

St. Davids, V.

Arwyn, L.

Gardiner, L.

Seear, B.

Balogh, L.

Garnsworthy, L. [Teller.]

Segal, L.

Beaumont of Whitley, L.

George-Brown, L.

Shackleton, L.

Bernstein, L.

Hall, V.

Shannon, E.

Beswick, L.

Henderson, L.

Shepherd, L.

Birk, B.

Henley, L.

Shinwell, L.

Blyton, L.

Hughes, L.

Simon, V.

Brockway, L.

Jacques, L.

Snow, L.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Leatherland, L.

Stow Hill, L.

Chalfont, L

Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.

Strabolgi, L. [Teller.]

Clwyd, L

Longford, E.

Summerskill, B.

Cole, L.

McLeavy, L.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Crook, L.

Morris of Grasmere, L.

White, B.

Davies of Leek, L.

Noel-Buxton, L.

Wigg, L.

De Ramsey, L.

Ogmore, L.

Winterbottom, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

Ferrers, E.

Mowbray and Stourton, L. [Teller.]

Ailsa, M.

Garner, L.

Amory, V.

Gisborough, L.

Northchurch, B.

Barnby, L.

Gowrie, E.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Berkeley, B.

Grantchester, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Brooke of Cumnor, L.

Greenway, L.

Roberthall, L.

Brooke of Ystradfellte, B.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Rockley, L.

Caccia, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Ruthven of Freeland, Ly.

Carrington, L.

St Aldwyn, E.

Chorley, L.

Harvey of Prestbury, L.

Savile, L.

Clancarty, E.

Hawke, L.

Stamp, L.

Coleraine, L.

Hewlett, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Conesford, L.

Ironside, L.

Craigavon, V.

Jessel, L.

Strathspey, L.

Craigton, L.

Limerick, E.

Teviot, L.

Daventry, V.

Lyell, L.

Thorneycroft, L.

de Clifford, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Mansfield, E.

Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie, B.

Drumalbyn, L.

Mar, E.

Vivian, L.

Eccles, V,

Massereene and Ferrard, V.

Wakefield of Kendal, L.

Effingham, E.

Merrivale, L.

Windlesham, L. (L. Privy Seal.)

Elgin and Kincardine, E.

Middleton, L.

Wise, L.

Elles, B.

Milverton, L.

Wolverton, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Molson, L.

Young, B.

Elton, L.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule 2 [Amendment of Enactments and Liabilities to the New Public Authority and Other Transitional Provisions]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 29, line 19, at end insert the following paragraph—
(" . Any instrument or other document in force before the appointed day shall, so far as may be necessary in consequence of the enactment of section 3 of this Act, have effect on and after that day as if—

(a) references to the Chief Land Registrar were (or, if the context so requires, included) references to the registering authority;

(b) references to Her Majesty's Land Registry were (or, if the context so requires,

1303
included) references to the registering authority or, as the case may require, an office of that authority.")

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I rise to move Amendment No. 7, which is a technical Amendment to meet the point raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, at Committee stage, as to the absence from the Bill of any transitional provision whereby references in private documents may be construed by reference to the new Land Registry organisation in place of the organisation which existed when the document was executed. Further consideration has, as I promised, been given to it, and that consideration has confirmed that the noble and learned Lord and his informant, who I think is a writer in one of the professional newspapers, were right, and that the matter ought to be attended to. The purpose of this Amendment No. 7, which is the last one, is to attend to it. I think that the draftsmanship is technical.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for having given consideration to this point and for moving this Amendment to improve the position.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for having drawn the omission to our attention and thus improving the Bill.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

CLYDE PORT AUTHORITY (HUNTERSTON ORE TERMINAL) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1ª, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.

PROTECTION OF THE ENVIRONMENT BILL [H.L.]
4.28 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (BARONESS YOUNG): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Baroness Young.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD HENLEY in the Chair.]
BARONESS WHITE BARONESS WHITE moved Amendment No. 1:
Before Clause 1 insert the following new clause:
Duty of public authorities to have regard to pollution
(" . It shall be the duty of all public authorities in reaching decisions affecting the use of land, water or air to have regard to possible pollution, including noise, arising therefrom, and to take all practicable steps towards the avoidance or mitigation of such pollutant effects; in particular, it shall be the duty of a planning authority to obtain all possible information on the likely pollutant effect of any proposed development and, where necessary, to attach appropriate conditions to any consent which may be given.")
The noble Baroness said: As your Lordships are aware, we on this side of the Committee in general terms very much welcome this Bill and wish, so far as possible, to be entirely co-operative in its passage. I hope that it will not seem too carping if I draw to the attention of your Lordships the fact that, according to my computation, there are no fewer than 91 Government Amendments on the Order Paper for Committee stage. Very few of these arise out of our deliberations on Second Reading. It is proper to draw attention to this fact, because it means that we shall have to spend a good deal of time in this House going through the formalities of passing what are sometimes Amendments of substance but a good many of them drafting Amendments which, quite frankly, one hoped would have been sorted out before the Bill came before us. I mention this because we may have a fairly long Committee stage, and I should not wish any noble Lords who are not closely involved in our discussions on the Bill to suppose that the number of Amendments on the Order Paper is all due to Parties on this side of the House.
I beg to move the first Amendment which stands in my name and that of my noble friend, Lord Garnsworthy. I do this because I know from a number of representations which I have received from those who are concerned with amenity and the avoidance of pollution

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that they feel that this Bill, although it is an admirable Bill so far as it goes, misses an opportunity to make plain how seriously we take this whole question of dealing with pollution. It therefore appears to us to be right and proper that at the outset of the Bill we should have some kind of declaratory statement making it clear that we regard pollution in all its aspects as something which is thoroughly undesirable and something which is to be avoided in so far as it is possible to avoid it. As I said when we were discussing the Bill in general terms on Second Reading, there is a declaratory section in the Countryside Act. This proposed new clause is not drafted in precisely the same terms, partly because we think that in this particular Bill one can be much more specific and direct in one's references to possible pollution. So we make it plain that in our view it should be the duty of all public authorities, if they are taking decisions which would affect the use of land, water or air, to have regard to possible pollution. We have mentioned noise specifically because that might not otherwise occur to them as being a form of pollution; but as there is a complete Part of this Bill concerned with it, it is very much within the general terms of this legislation.
All we are proposing in this Amendment is that public authorities should take
"all practicable steps towards the avoidance or mitigation of such pollutant effects".
This seems to me to be something which ought to become just common practice in Government Departments and in the affairs of local authorities, public corporations or boards. One hopes that it will also enter into the consideration of private enterprises and individuals in their own personal and domestic affairs, but I think it would be unreasonable to legislate specifically for them. Your Lordships will notice that we have more especially drawn attention to one sphere of public activity; namely, that of planning authorities. That is because so often it will lie with them as to whether or not developments are permitted which could have undesirable pollutant effects. We recognise that in many activities of life there is bound to be some sort of pollution; it is inevitable. All we are saying is that it should be taken into account when decisions are reached; and
1306
a declaration that it should be taken into account would, I think, help those who sometimes carry on a fairly lonely battle. Although the forces against pollution are growing in number almost daily, I think such a declaration would help them if they felt that decisions were being taken by planning authorities which did not give adequate consideration to the possible pollutant effects of proposed development. Circumstances will vary very much from one place to another. One has especially in mind places of outstanding natural beauty, but also developments which might take place near a housing development, where people's private lives might be very much affected, as they certainly have been in the part of the country that I come from. So we think it is, as I say, right and proper that in the opening clause of this Bill we should make it plain that we are all anxious that public authorities should have this duty brought before them. Many of them, of course, observe it already, but by no means all, and we think that they should have this duty brought before them and that there should be no dubiety in the matter.
I hope that the Government will feel disposed to accept this Amendment. If they have any hesitation about it, I admit that I myself have had second thoughts about including the words, four lines from the end, "all possible". That, perhaps, was going a little too far for common sense—and I do try to be sensible in these matters. If the only objection that the Government have to the drafting of this clause is that that is perhaps asking a little too much of busy planning authorities, I should have no objection to deleting those two words, as long as they obtained
"information on the likely pollutant effect of any proposed development".
But I hope very much that we may begin our deliberations on this Bill with something a good deal more positive in principle than the draftsmen of the Bill have permitted themselves so far. I beg to move.
VISCOUNT AMORY: The noble Baroness, Lady White, has made it clear that what she has in mind is a declaratory statement at the beginning to emphasise the importance of local authorities getting down to these functions and dealing with pollution. Often situations arise in

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which I think a declaratory statement of that kind at the beginning of a Bill is a good plan, but I am not quite sure that it is necessary in this case. Perhaps a few years ago it might have been necessary, but public opinion and local government is now so alert to pollution in all its branches that it is hardly necessary; and the whole theme of this Bill has this precise point running through it. So I personally have some doubts whether it would be necessary, although it may be that there would be no objection at all to a declaratory statement in the right terms.
The noble Baroness mentioned the Countryside Act, and I imagine that what she has in mind is a sort of parallel statement to the one that is in that Act. I should like to ask her about the words "public authorities". Would that be intended to cover all authorities— central Government authorities, bodies sponsored by central Government, and so on? I am thinking of bodies outside—the Forestry Commission, for instance. Or would it be only local public authorities that she has in mind? I should have some doubts as to whether the word "practicable" is right here, and whether a word like "reasonable" would not be better, because some things which would be practicable would be far from reasonable.
But when I turn to the second half of this proposed declaratory statement, there are some words there which I think are rather objectionable. I agree with the noble Baroness that "all possible" is rather pushing it a little too far; but I have in mind here that planning authorities have a number of specific and clear responsibilities laid on them by various Acts, and it is a mistake to think of a planning authority as a sort of long-stop which is there just to catch anything and take some action about it. They already have to consider all relevant matters within their fields of responsibility; and, as noble Lords will agree, planning staffs are in desperately short supply at the present moment. Authorities at county and district level are finding it very difficult indeed to recruit them and in fact are outbidding one another for the staff that exists. Then, may not the words, "attach appropriate conditions" conflict with, or duplicate, the powers and duties which really would be appropri-
1308
ate to other authorities? So my conclusion is that while I see no objection to a declaratory statement if the Committee feel that it would be useful, I feel that the second half of the clause dealing with the planning authorities would be unsatisfactory in its present form.
4.40 p.m.
BARONESS YOUNG: I have listened with interest to the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady White, in moving the Amendment, and to what was said by my noble friend Lord Amory. I think we are all sympathetic with the aim of this proposed new clause. We all want to achieve a better environment. I can assure the Committee that the Government are very serious in their intention on this matter. It follows therefore that we would, in general, want public authorities to consider the environmental consequences of any particular development. What I think needs to be done is to consider how far this proposed new clause would achieve the desired result. The clause is in two parts, and I should like to consider each section of it.
The first part lays a broad general duty on public authorities (they are not specifically defined, but I take the expression to mean in this context planning authorities) to have regard to the possible polluting effects of development, and to take steps to prevent such pollution.
BARONESS WHITE: If the noble Baroness, Lady White, will excuse my interrupting, I might be able to make it a little clearer to her and to the noble Viscount, Lord Amory. It does not mean in the first part only planning authorities. I have taken the phrase from the Countryside Act.
"every Minister, government department and public body."
If it is more acceptable to spell it out in that form I do not mind.
BARONESS YOUNG: I thank the noble Baroness, Lady White, for that clarification. To return to the first part of this clause, it requires that public authorities or bodies shall have regard to the possible polluting effects of a development. We have looked at this carefully and I feel bound to point out that there could be real practical difficulties arising from this. If I may give one example, an individual opposed to the decision of

1309
an authority could have a very broad locus for criticising and challenging the decision of the authority on planning applications. It would be very difficult for an authority to prove that it had taken every practicable step towards the avoidance or mitigation of pollution. I think that this point was recognised by the noble Baroness, Lady White. It would be open to objectors to frustrate and delay decisions to a substantial extent, and to do so at a time when there is considerable pressure to improve waste disposal facilities.
Turning to the second half of the proposed new clause, I should like to expand a little the points made by the noble Viscount, Lord Amory. It seeks to impose a duty on a local planning authority to obtain information about the pollutant effect of a proposed development and, where necessary, to attach appropriate conditions to any consent given. It is these which could present greater difficulties. The duty of a local planning authority in deciding on planning applications is set out in Section 29 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1971. The authority is required to have regard to the provisions of the development plan, so far as is material to the application, and to any other material considerations, which the courts have interpreted to mean planning considerations. The authority may grant planning permission either unconditionally or subject to such conditions as it thinks fit, or refuse permission. The duties and powers are thus expressed in broad general terms. Local planning authorities are responsible for assembling any information they need to enable them to determine the application and they have power to require the applicant to supply any information they need.
We are all particularly conscious of the problem of pollution, not only because we, as a Committee, are considering this Bill, but also, and as has been said, because this is a matter of growing concern to the public at large. But I am not sure that it would be desirable to single out pollution for special attention. After all, there are many other issues that local planning authorities must consider—traffic and transportation, the effect of development on services, the need to preserve buildings or areas of architectural or historic importance, the protection of the countryside—
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in coming to a planning decision. Moreover, a duty to impose conditions would be inconsistent with the discretion afforded to planning authorities under the 1971 Act generally.
My Department gives advice to local planning authorities from time to time by circular about the exercise of their existing responsibilities in relation to particular topics. For example, Circular 10/73 gave advice on planning and noise; and I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady White, that not all people think of noise as being a polluting factor although of course it is included in this Bill. Guidance is being prepared on planning and clean air, including guidance about the need for information and about sources of advice. We know that many authorities make full use of their planning powers in this way to deal with pollution aspects, but this is rather different from laying a duty on a local planning authority.
I think we all hope that as a result of local government reorganisation there will be established not only larger but also more powerful authorities. I believe that authorities are now establishing committees with responsibilities to consider matters pertaining to planning and the environment, and not merely the more narrowly defined land use planning considerations which were the responsibility of former planning committees. It is always a real point for consideration how far Central Government should go in laying detailed duties on local authorities at a lime like the present, when new and stronger authorities have been established. It is open to those authorities to consider the matters which are the subject of the Amendment if they wish. I think that the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, is right in saying that they will take them into account.
I feel it may be helpful to the Committee also to say how we anticipate that the planning powers in this Bill will be exercised. Planning permission pertaining to waste disposal operations will be a matter reserved to county councils in England. We propose, after the Bill has received the Royal Assent, to make an order under the Local Government Act to this effect, and in the meantime we are in full consultation with the local

1311
authority associations and the London boroughs about how all this will be worked out.
After what I have said it may seem that I am trying to damn this new clause completely, but I have advanced these arguments because I think it only fair that the Committee should recognise that there are real difficulties in the way of implementing the clause as it stands. But I meant what I said at the beginning, that we are sympathetic to its intention. I agree with my noble friend Lord Amory that we need—and there would be a great deal to be said for it—a general declaration of intent. As I said on Second Reading, and as I meant, we wish to look at all Amendments as sympathetically as we can and to meet the points where possible. I am therefore prepared to look at this Amendment and consider it to see whether at a later stage in the proceedings we can introduce an Amendment of our own which would take in at any rate this declaration of intent which I believe is the spirit behind the Amendment. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady White, will feel that she is able to accept my assurance on this point.
LORD MOLSON: I should like to say how much I welcome the speech of my noble friend Lady Young and the spirit in which she has approached this matter. I entirely agree that it is extraordinarily difficult to impose a duty on a local authority which, under the planning legislation, is bound to exercise its discretion. It is almost impossible to reconcile a mandatory instruction by Parliament with the duty of a local authority to exercise its discretion. I have therefore felt that the new clause in its present form would prove almost impossible to work. As has been said, it is in two parts. The first part, as the noble Baroness, Lady White, has said, is in considerable measure similar to the important declaratory statement in the Countryside Act, that all Government Departments and local authorities are to bear in mind the preservation of the beauty of the countryside. I remember being surprised when a Government Department, and still more the Parliamentary draftsman, agreed to some general declaration of that kind. It is not generally in the tradition of statutes, which are nearly always couched in obscure, but definite, terms. But it was
1312
a most valuable precedent; and it has done a great deal to improve the general planning of the countryside. I think, therefore, that it should be possible to follow that wise precedent, which has worked extremely well, and for the Government at a later stage to introduce an Amendment rather on the same lines.
What I should like to ask my noble friend the Minister is whether she is satisfied that the local authorities have the power, and will be able effectively to exercise the power, to find out in advance whether effluents from some new development are going to be harmful to the environment. What I should wish this clause to do would be to ensure the pollution was prevented in advance, instead of an attempt being made to rectify it after it has taken place.
We are all aware that local authorities are confronted with an extraordinarily difficult situation when a builder, for example, builds a house or erects some building which is a breach of the planning permission given or of conditions attached to it. The local authority then finds itself in the extremely embarrassing position of having to decide whether to exercise its statutory right to insist upon the building being demolished and imposing a very heavy—perhaps a disproportionately heavy—penalty upon the person who has been guilty of breaking the planning permission. If the person concerned happens to be a man without much money, public sympathy will be for him if the local authority insists upon it being demolished; and if, in a place where there is a shortage of housing, the building is somebody else's house, then the local authority will find public opinion too strongly against it to insist on the legal remedy even being effective. I remember a case rather of that kind which occurred in my own constituency when I was in another place.
Therefore I would ask my noble friend Lady Young to consider whether it would be possible not only to incorporate in this clause the general declaration to which she has rather indicated she would be sympathetic but to make sure that local planning authorities can obtain in practice, as well as in theory, the information which is necessary to make sure that pollution does not take place. I should be very glad also if some Penalty

1313
could attach if the applicant for the planning permission does not carry out the conditions which have been imposed. It is, I think, of the utmost importance when we are dealing with this matter to try to ensure that pollution is prevented and not merely rectified after it has taken place.
4.56 p.m.
BARONESS WHITE: I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for spelling out the reasons why she finds this particular clause difficult; and I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Molson, who has great experience in these matters, for his general support for such a clause, and particularly for having seized upon what I regard as one of the crucial matters, the position of the planning authorities; because unless they look into these matters adequately, then, as the noble Lord, Lord Molson, said, all one can do is to try to remedy the situation that has arisen which is often so much more difficult than to prevent it, provided that one looks at it early enough in the chain of events.
I should be quite happy if the Government were to draft some variant of this clause, provided that any draft they produce does not leave out any essential points. For example, I would happily accept the suggestion of the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, that one should use the word "reasonable" rather than "practicable": I see his point entirely. Similarly, I see the point about mandatory instructions to planning authorities, which would cut across the philosophy that they use their discretion. That, too, could be accommodated, I think, if, instead of saying "where necessary", one said "where it"—the planning authority —"thinks fit". I was rather depressed by the noble Baroness's somewhat negative general attitude, until she reached the penultimate paragraph of her brief, putting forward all the reasons why one should not say these things. I am not quite as convinced as the noble Baroness appears to be as to the value of circulars —perhaps "value" is not quite the right word, because of course circulars are valuable; but at any rate they do not always have as much effect as one would wish, particularly in present circumstances.
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The noble Baroness spoke of the larger authorities. But surely she is aware that under the Local Government Act there are going to be a great many more small planning authorities; and one of the problems resulting from that Act is that because the number of planning authorities in the country is being increased, there is an acute shortage of staff. This makes it all the more necessary, if we are genuinely concerned about pollution, that we should draw attention to it, because otherwise this is just the kind of thing a busy officer will not bother about. He will say, "There are various things that I have to look at, and we must take a chance on pollution."
I am afraid that a good deal of the argument put forward by the noble Baroness did not seem to me by any means to be fully convincing. For example, she said that there might be other authorities to which some of these references might be more appropriate. Well, there is nothing to prevent the other authorities from carrying out their duties. But this Bill is about pollution, and it appears to me therefore that we are quite properly concerned with the public bodies. As I said, if it were desired to put in the words used in the Countryside Act, I should be quite agreeable to that; but certainly the planning authorities should have their attention drawn to this special duty.
As the noble Baroness was good enough to suggest that the Government would be prepared to put down a variant of this clause, I think it would be only proper to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment at this stage and see what the Government alternative might be. I hope that it will be acceptable, but if it is not, I hope that it will be put down in sufficient time to allow us to suggest a further version. In the circumstances, I shall be most happy to accept the offer made by the noble Baroness.
LORD MERRIVALE: Before the noble Baroness withdraws her Amendment, may I take this opportunity of asking my noble friend Lady Young whether it is within the ambit of this Bill to incorporate a clause permitting consideration of the diminution of pollution at the planning stage? As I understand the Bill at the moment, it mainly deals with the disposal of waste, licensing for the disposal of controlled

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waste, and so forth. The Bill also deals with regional plans and it also says in the Title that it is,
"An Act to make further provison with respect to waste disposal, water pollution, noise, atmospheric pollution and injurious substances; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid."
Although I agree with my noble friend Lord Molson that at the planning stage it may be feasible and practicable to do away with an increase of pollution, I am not sure whether it comes within the ambit of this Bill.
BARONESS YOUNG: Of course we shall read very carefully all the suggestions made about drafting Amendments to this clause. This is a matter we must study, and I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady White, has recognised that we are prepared to consider this general declaration of intent. I do not take her view about the new planning authorities. I find it very difficult to believe that in the context of present-day public opinion on pollution, any officer or committee would not consider, on a matter referring to waste disposal undertakings of one sort or another, whether or not this could have a possible polluting effect. I think this is something which everybody would consider. Furthermore, one must believe, if one believes in the value of local government, that one should give these new authorities the opportunity to exercise their right of decision-making in these matters. Perhaps I should make it clear, in case there should be any misunderstanding about planning powers, that in the English counties the planning powers in connection with waste disposal will rest with the counties and not with the districts. In Wales and Scotland they will all be in the districts. So the situation is, as it were, in parallel, though not precisely the same; and when we are talking about planning powers, we are talking about those at county level.
Perhaps I should say, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Molson, that we see three stages in this complete operation. The first is the establishing of a waste disposal plan by the new waste disposal authorities, and this will be an overall plan for the disposal of waste in their area. Then there will be the procedure for detailed planning permission—for example, for an incinerator, a tip
1316
or whatever it might be. In addition to that, there would be the licensing of the individual waste disposal operator; and it is at that stage that all the matters concerned with the effects of effluents—and particularly any which would be toxic or noxious in any way—would be considered. So I think I can give an assurance, in so far as one can ever give an assurance about something which may happen in the future, that we have done our best to cover the particular points raised.
I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, will accept, in the context of what I have said, that although there will not necessarily be a diminution in the amount of waste to be disposed of—because in our society it is likely to increase—the intention behind the Bill is that the way in which it is disposed of should be more effective and efficient than has been the case in the past.
LORD HENLEY: May I just say that it might be helpful to the two noble Baroness, in trying to find suitable words of a declaratory nature with regard to pollution, if the noble Baroness, Lady White, had remembered the suggestion of her noble friend Lord Kennet that the Bill should be called "Control of Pollution Bill". Your Lordships may remember that the Title of the Bill has been postponed, and I hope that when we come to deal with that the noble Baroness will move an Amendment to that effect.
BARONESS WHITE: If the noble Lord, Lord Henley, had had sufficient time to read to the very end of the Amendments, he would have observed that Amendment No. 212, standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Garns-worthy and I, suggests that the Title should be changed from "Protection of the Environment" to "Environmental Pollution Control".
LORD HAWKE: Before the noble Baroness withdraws her Amendment, should like to ask my noble friend whether, when she is considering a declaratory clause to replace this one, she will consider very carefully the pollution of air. I know people who suffer very severely from the pollution of air—to wit, the aroma coming from a very large herd of very dirty pigs. What I think we must try to do is to

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work out some form of declaration which will involve the consideration of stench, while at the same time not making it impossible to grow bacon in this country.
VISCOUNT AMORY: May I suggest to my noble friend that I hope we shall not be too precipitate in this—I am very fond of the smell of pigs!
BARONESS WHITE: I beg leave to withdraw this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 [Arrangements for disposing of controlled waste]:
5.9 p.m.
LORD GARNSWORTHY LORD GARNSWORTHY moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 1, line 9, leave out ("and other persons").
The noble Lord said: Clause 1 is concerned with arrangements for disposing of controlled waste. It reads:
"It shall be the duty of each disposal authority to ensure that the arrangements made by the authority and other persons for the disposal of waste are adequate for the purpose of disposing of all controlled waste which becomes situated in its area…"
In other words, it would seem to place a duty upon waste disposal authorities to ensure that satisfactory arrangements are made either by the authority itself or by other operators—and the noble Baroness referred a few moments ago to private operators—for the disposal of all controlled waste in their areas. I should like to ask the noble Baroness whether that is intended and, if so, whether it is right and proper that a disposal authority should have a duty to ensure that other persons, including private operators, should have adequate means to dispose of their waste. If the reply is, "Yes", then it certainly goes beyond the issue of control that is, to say, the control powers that will extend as far as private operators are concerned or as far as producers of waste are concerned. Control should quite properly be exercised by local authorities. It seems that the clause as worded would place the primary responsibility for dealing with waste from the undertaking which produces it (or the private operator) on to the local authority. The primary responsibility should surely rest in the first instance on the producer
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—or, if there is a private operator, on the private operator—leaving the authority itself with the duties of control and enforcement in so far as this type of waste material is concerned. The matter is of some concern to one of the local authority associations and I think it is desirable that we should get the position clear at the outset of our proceedings.
LORD MERRIVALE: I hope that my noble friend will not accede to the noble Lord's request because in his opening remarks the noble Lord stressed, quite rightly, that the arrangements that were made by the authority should be adequate. I wonder whether, if his Amendment were accepted, they would be adequate. Surely dispersal arrangements would be incomplete. It seems to me that the successful implementation of disposal authority plans would be very much at risk if no other persons could be brought in. I should have thought that co-operation and consultation with these other persons, private operators and industry, was essential and that the Government were quite right to bring in these words, "other persons".
LORD HAWKE: I have raised this point in your Lordships' House at intervals over a number of years. The phrase "other persons" brings in a very important point. I have come to the conclusion that the reason why people dump rubbish in the countryside is because the arrangements for dumping it anywhere else are inadequate. One can understand that ordinary dustmen do not have space on their vehicles for taking large items of rubbish. Therefore the local authority say, "Telephone us and we will provide you with a special collection." When I asked a local authority how soon they could manage that they said, "We can do it in about four weeks' time."
Consider the case of a person who moves into a small house or buys some new furniture or bedding, and wants to get rid of the old. What does he do? He telephones the local authority and they say, "We can give you a collection in a month's time". Meanwhile, the furniture is cluttering up the small house —it may he a flat and the person may not even have a garden. So what does he do? He takes his car one dark night and pops the furniture over my hedge or somebody else's hedge as the path of least resistance. The local authorities

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have at long last realised that this is a grave fault in their collection system and have created various dumps to which private people can take their waste. I happened to walk around last Sunday afternoon one of the places which is a favourite dumping ground on the outskirts of Crawley New Town. There was a notice saying, "Please do not dump here; there is a dump at so-and-so". But the dump at "so-and-so" happened to be 12 miles away. That was a fat lot of use!
The other point is that the local authority charges tradesmen of any sort for the disposal of their rubbish. I think this is entirely wrong and leads to a great deal of dumping. The small decorator or garage owner, sooner than pay charges for having rubbish taken away, go out on a dark night, and we see the results of their labours in Sussex lanes wherever there is a stream or a gap in the roadside. It is important that the final authority should see that there are proper arrangements for the disposal of waste by other persons. I have hoped for a long time that the new authority will be more knowing and sympathetic in providing proper dumps nearer to the centres of population where the waste originates.
5.16 p.m.
BARONESS YOUNG: Perhaps it would be helpful if I answered first of all the points that have been made by my noble friend Lord Hawke. He has pointed to a real difficulty that a great many people have experienced and of which they are aware—unsightly dumping of rubbish in totally unsuitable places. As he rightly pointed out, the first clause of this Bill confers a duty on the waste disposal authority to dispose of such rubbish, or to make arrangements for the disposal of such rubbish, in its area. It will therefore be an offence to dump rubbish anywhere but in those places where it has been agreed that it should be left. It will be a matter for the individual authority to make whatever arrangements, if any, about charging it thinks fit.
We hope that this Bill will go a long way to solving what I think everybody regards as very much a twentieth century nuisance of unsightly rubbish dumped in the wrong place. We consider, not only for this reason but for the reason advanced by my noble friend Lord Merrivale, that
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the waste disposal authority, which will be the county council, in conjunction with the collection authorities, who will be the district authorities, will continue to have the function of dealing with household and domestic refuse. We also need the support of private industry to enable the disposal authority to take into account all the various amounts of non-domestic waste which will need to be disposed of in drawing up its overall plan. Of course amounts and types of waste will vary from place to place in the country, but we are quite clear that it will be the duty of the authority to draw up the plans and to state where, under its planning and licensing stipulations, either tipping, incineration or any other form of disposal shall take place.
But there are so many problems with commercial and industrial waste that there will need to be the greatest co-operation with private industry in finding suitable ways of disposing of it and of controlling it. Indeed, many private firms are now planning treatment facilities on a national scale, both for reclaiming chemicals and treating chemicals to become harmless sludge which can then be used for land reclamation. All this involves considerable capital investment. Rather than exclude the private disposal industry we consider that we shall, if anything, need to strengthen the relationship and the co-operation between the waste disposal authorities and the private sector.
I explain this because I think it is very necessary to realise, when one is considering this Bill as a whole, that we are not talking simply about domestic refuse, but are talking about all types of disposal, industrial wastes as well as wastes from contractors; and this covers all waste that is produced by industry, commerce, or domestic households. We hope and believe that we have provided within this Bill a statutory framework for a better basis of planning for both the public and private sector alike. That is why I cannot accept this Amendment.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: I do not want to press this Amendment this evening, and I am grateful to the noble Baroness for what she has said. The Amendment is intended to go some way towards meeting the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Molson, when lie was

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speaking on the earlier Amendment. I fully appreciate what the noble Lords, Lord Merrivale and Lord Hawke, have said—and I take the point made by the noble Baroness that we are dealing not only with domestic waste but with all waste—but the Bill does little to bring any kind of pressure on those who produce waste to reduce the production of that waste, and I think this is important. I hope that this aspect may perhaps be looked at. I listened with very great interest to what the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, had to say about people dumping rubbish by the roadside or throwing it over the hedge. I do not think this Bill is likely to make a very great deal of difference to people who engage in that kind of activity. This is a matter of seeing that such people are caught, taken to court and dealt with severely, so that they are taught a very necessary lesson.
LORD HAWKE: Somebody in my locality was once taken to court because he happened to dump an armchair, and down in the cleft a letter addressed to him was found. But otherwise, nobody is ever going to get caught. My point is that if there is a place where these people can go, within reasonable reach of their homes, we can expect them to use it.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: I take the noble Lord's point—indeed, I had intended to come to it. I realise that armchairs will be dumped, and occasionally there will be some evidence. But the noble Lord is not correct, I think, in suggesting that these people are not caught. They are caught from time to time, and some courts are inflicting much heavier penalties than they used to do. I think there might be a great deal more activity in checking up on these people. The noble Lord talks about difficulty in finding a site near at hand. Where I live there is a controlled tip, not too far away, where people can take waste and dump it quite easily. There is, at equal distance, a beautiful little wood, and some people prefer to take their waste to the wood and dump it rather than take it to the controlled tip.
LORD CRAIGTON: Is the noble Lord aware that in Edinburgh the citizens just put their old furniture downstairs on the pavement, and the local authority take it away?
LORD GARNSWORTHY: It seems to me that the complaint of the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, could be dealt with if local authorities made more reasonable provision for rubbish disposal. I think this Bill will encourage them to do it. I do not think it is going to cure the kind of person who has no love of the countryside and who takes a car and dumps it, or who takes an old bed and dumps it. At the wood to which I referred there are people who even take grass cuttings down and dump them, as well as building materials and all kinds of things. One does ask: ought the local authority to be made responsible for the producer of waste, the industrial producer of waste? Is not control sufficient in that regard? I ask that more attention might be paid to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Molson, because it is one of some considerable substance. I should like to think that the matter will be looked at further. However, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for what she has had to say. As I said, I have no intention of pressing the Amendment this evening, and with the Committee's permission I will withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.24 p.m.
LORD STOW HILL LORD STOW HILL moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 1, line 12, leave out ("and") and insert ("or which").
The noble and learned Lord said: This is a massive Bill which deals with matters of great public importance, and I do not apprehend that your Lordships would greatly welcome lengthy discussions on what are really drafting points. However, perhaps it is our duty to examine the language which Parliamentary Counsel has chosen with a view to avoiding obscurity so far as it can be removed, and achieving precision. Your Lordships may think that I do not trespass unnecessarily on the time of the Committee if I move this Amendment quite shortly.
The point is this. In Clause 1, controlled waste is referred to as,
"waste which becomes situated in its area…and is likely to become so situated".
If I refer, in ordinary parlance, to an object which is A and B, I should have thought that I would be taken to be referring to one object of which it could

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be predicated that it has two characteristics. If one considers a single parcel of garbage, it is difficult to suppose that that single parcel of garbage is both "situated in an area" and "is likely to become situated in an area." I suppose, by a process of refined logic, one could arrive at the conclusion that the reference is to a two-phase proceeding: one parcel of garbage is first likely to become situated; then the second phase is that either that parcel of garbage, or some other, becomes so situated. That is the dilemma which I faced when I read this language. I submit to your Lordships that it would be much easier to understand, and it would read much more naturally and tidily, if one struck out the word "and" and substituted the words "or which". Then controlled waste would be "waste which becomes situated in its area…or which is likely to become so situated." I beg to move.
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: May I start by saying that naturally I welcome the purpose underlying the noble Lord's Amendment. Anything that makes a Bill easier to understand is certainly going to be welcomed by non-lawyers, like myself. Furthermore, we can applaud the noble Lord's intention so far as the underlying purpose of what he wants to clarify is concerned, and also in that we want to cover waste which is in the area and which is imported into the area.
I am one of the least suitable people in your Lordships' House to start indulging in semantic arguments with the noble Lord, Lord Stow Hill. He mentioned the Parliamentary Counsel and I must do the same. We contend that the result achieved by the present wording is what the noble Lord wishes; and that if this should be unclear, then the Department is indeed in sympathy with the spirit of the noble Lord's Amendment. But Parliamentary Counsel has pointed out that the noble Lord's drafting is defective, and its effect would be to preclude a disposal authority from taking account of both sorts of waste in one plan. However, Counsel has made some suggestions which he feels would meet the noble Lord's point, although he has not finally made up his mind on this one at the moment. Therefore, we should like to consider the noble Lord's suggestion.
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I may at the same time point out that in this case a similar Amendment would probably be required after the "and" in Clause 2, page 1, line 18. I hope that in these circumstances we shall succeed in satisfying the noble Lord in the long run.
LORD STOW HILL: I am very much indebted to the Minister for what he has said. I think the discussion was useful, and I hope your Lordships will agree that it was brief. I beg to ask the permission of the Committee for leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 [Preparation and revision of waste disposal plans]:
5.30 p.m.
LORD CRAIGTON LORD CRAIGTON moved Amendment No. 4:
Page 1, line 18, after ("of") insert ("and reclaiming").
The noble Lord said: I believe it would be for the convenience of your Lordships if we could discuss on this occasion my Amendment No. 4 with my Amendment No. 38, and also at the same time Amendments Nos. 5 and 7 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady White, and her noble friends. When I read this Bill for the first and the second time—I am referring to Part I—it seemed to me that it was a Bill about disposal as it is commonly understood. I know that in paragraph (e) of subsection (2) of this clause there is a mention of reclamation as part of the plan. But at the moment it is not a Bill really about anything other than disposal as it is understood.
We are moving from a period of plenty into a period of shortage and, with the inevitably increased costs, the use of reclaimed waste will become more and more worth while. Looking ahead, I can conceive the disposal authorities finding it not only in their interest but their duty to reclaim as much refuse and to re-use as much refuse as possible. So I put down this Amendment because I wanted, as it were, Part I of the Bill to change direction by strengthening and underlying the duty of reclamation and re-use, even though I know that within Parliamentary drafting, "reclamation" is part of "disposal".
I should like briefly to get on the Record why I put down Amendment No. 38 which refers to the kinds and quantities of waste which may be dealt with. I wanted reference to the kinds and quantities of waste which "shall be disposed of or reclaimed". I felt that in granting a disposal licence this may be very important in the national interest, and that a person asking for a licence might be interested in one particular product which he was reclaiming but there might be other products which, without some direction, would be lost. So I felt that the phrase "may be dealt with" had neither the teeth nor the direction of my suggested words. Before I sit down I must say that, since I put down my Amendment No. 4, the noble Baroness opposite and her noble friends have put down an Amendment which I think gives very much the effect of what I should like to see. So I have at this stage no intention of pressing Amendment No. 4. So far as No. 38 is concerned, whatever the outcome of these Amendments, I would leave it to my noble friend Lady Young to put down an Amendment at a later stage if she thought that my Amendment was worth while.
5.33 p.m.
LORD SAINSBURY: If it is in order, I should like to address my few remarks to Amendment No. 5 which stands in the name of my noble friends Lady White and Lord Garnsworthy, and myself suitably last. In my opinion the Amendment aims to provide Encouragement—
LORD MOLSON: If I may intervene, is it the intention that Amendment No. 5 should be discussed at the same time as No. 4?
LORD SAINSBURY: I thought that that had been agreed. The Amendment aims to encourage the disposal authorities to regard waste collection, disposal and re-cycling as parts of the same problem. What is needed, in my opinion, is an integrated effort. When I spoke during Second Reading I mentioned that several local authorities in Sweden were successfully using such waste products for heating homes and offices. I should now like to move much nearer home and refer to a G.L.C. plant at Edmonton which burns unsorted waste collected in an area inhabited by about 1 million people. This plant produces electricity,
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I understand, which is fed into the national grid. I happen to know that the noble Baroness, Lady Young, has more practical experience than I have. In fact, I believe she has actually visited the plant.
The plant has not been, I admit, in operation for a very long time. Also it is only frank to mention that it had some teething troubles. But it is now regarded, I am told, as very worth while and as a viable project. What has been a great handicap in the past is the question of sorting waste, and this plant can use unsorted waste. I believe, particularly in the light of the Statement we heard earlier this afternoon, that efforts of this kind must be very much encouraged; that this must be done on a much wider scale, and that we can use to great effect the potential resources of this waste. Therefore, I strongly support my noble friends in this Amendment.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: I also strongly support my noble friend's Amendment and other Amendments related to this question. May I point out that there is in this country to-day a firm who are importing waste from the Continent to make use of it here for industrial purposes. I think that the fact that we are even importing waste (I can give noble Lords the name of the firm if they wish) adds importance to the real need to reclaim waste and conserve all our own waste that can be used commercially. Therefore, I strongly support this Amendment.
LORD LEATHERLAND: The noble Viscount, Lord Amory, rose when I did and I very willingly give way to him, if he wishes.
VISCOUNT AMORY: I thank the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland. My intervention will be very brief indeed. It is really to support what the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, said in general about the importance of reclamation. There is no question about it at all. We must give a great deal more attention to this matter, and I have no doubt it will be given. I myself always feel slightly guilty when I tip my refuse into one container. Even without any knowledge of what is reclaimable and what is not, I should be entirely prepared to take a little trouble if only I knew, and to separate my refuse into what is reclaimable and what is not,

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in two separate containers. Unfortunately, one does not know what is reclaimable. I did this once on my own to see what might be reclaimable, and when I looked into what I had separated as reclaimable I was not bursting with enthusiasm at the prospect of seeing it back again in some other form; indeed, I suppose one would not recognise it. I was glad that my noble friend Lord Craigton, in dealing with this subject said that on consideration he preferred Amendment No. 5 to Amendment No. 4. So do I. I think Amendment No. 4 is a little too specific and Amendment No. 5 seems to me to deal with the matter in just the way I thought was sensible. I look forward to hearing what the noble Baroness, Lady White, has to say, and also my noble friend Lady Young.
LORD HAWKE: I heartily agree with the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury. While he was speaking I could see on the Front Bench, sitting next to the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, the late Lord Morrison, of Tottenham. He used to sit there, and I feel sure he would have given us a wonderful disquisition on his waste reclamation plant in the Borough of Tottenham and the nourishing properties of "Tottenham Pud", which was a most valuable product during the War and just after.
As one who skims through the American Press (or part of it) most days I keep coming upon these questions of reclamation. They are making great progress in re-cycling things in America and we really must do a little more about it here. Some time ago when there was a bit of a recession in the heavy industries in this country I suggested, through a Question to Her Majesty's Government, that they might like to place an order for a few of these reclamation plants with a view to letting them out to local authorities. I cannot remember the exact words of the Answer, but of course it was a dusty one. It would have been useful if they had taken my advice because the unemployed could have been put to work and we should now have these plants. Nobody so far has mentioned paper, but at this moment we are still not—
BARONESS WHITE: If I may interrupt the noble Lord for a moment, by agree
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ment we were hoping to have a separate debate on paper, on which there are a number of Amendments.
LORD HAWKE: In that event I shall not say anything more.
LORD MERRIVALE: This is a highly important issue, but it is also an emotional one, and I wondering whether the Amendment standing in the name of the noble Baroness, to which a number of noble Lords have given preference, is really necessary, for subsection (2)(e) of Clause 28 requires a disposal authority in its plan to include reclamation as a method of waste disposal. I presume that to do so the disposal authority will need to look into the practicability of reclamation. At first sight re-cycling is both sensible and attractive, but whether it is practicable in a number of cases is quite another matter.
I should like to confine my remarks to that aspect. I think the practicability must be based on a properly organised survey, and a disposal authority, particularly in the early stages of its existence, would, I should imagine, not be equipped with adequate resources successfully to undertake the necessary investigation. To noble Lords who may think that I am being unreasonable in my belief that the disposal authorities will not be in a position to inquire fully into the practicability and to carry out the necessary detailed investigations, may I draw the attention of the Committee to what is already being done by industry, which I think is relevant, and also to the work that is involved in reclamation and re-cycling. Already in 1969 industry was re-cycling a considerable proportion of the metals it used. In that year the total value of the copper, lead, tin, aluminium and zinc recovered was £271 million—a not insignificant amount. If one also bears in mind the considerable quantities of waste paper, rubber, some plastics and cullet which were re-used, I think one can see that this matter is already being carefully looked into.
To mention the last product—the cullet which is used in the glass-making industry—the conclusions and recommendations alone on re-cycling contained in the Report of the Glass Industry Liaison Working Party with Government Departments, of which I have a

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copy in my hand, show up the complexities inherent in plans to re-cycle waste materials. To quote but three passages from this Report will, I think, prove the point I am making. The Report says:
"We suggest that the industry initiates research into developing a specification that will enable larger quantities of cullet to be used."
It then says:
"Research in the United States and limited use in the United Kingdom indicates that there are potential markets for cullet other than in glass making."
The Liaison Working Party go on to recommend that the Glass Manufacturing Federation should set up a re-cycling advisory bureau to co-ordinate and disseminate information on re-cycling. That shows that this is a complex and highly specialised business, and I think the authorities are not properly equipped to carry it on.
The Report also takes into account two gaps in the re-cycling chain; namely, the difficulty of purchase of a sufficiently high standard of cullet and the difficulty of supply. As I have said before, if one looks at this overall aspect of this one industry one can see how difficult the problem is. In the case of this industry the conclusion reached was that it was essential that there should be a liaison between the Government Department concerned and the research institutions responsible for such development, and the glass industry. The fact that this is a highly complex problem is therefore highlighted.
5.49 p.m.
LORD LEATHERLAND: I am sorry to have to say that I felt the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, was making excuses in advance for disposal authorities not doing as much as we expect them to do in the way of reclamation. My noble friend Lord Sainsbury drew attention to the fact that the gigantic destructor plant at Edmonton is going to feed electric current into the national grid. There is really nothing new about this kind of activity. I remember well over fifty years ago in Birmingham one of our destructor plants had a series of steam pipes from the furnaces where the refuse was burnt to the local electricity generating station across the way. That was a boon to the electricity generating station and it was a financial boon to the ratepayers of that
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city I learned with surprise that the question of waste paper was going to be excluded from the discussion on Amendment No. 5 for I had intended to say something about it, but I must await my turn in patience.
"Re-cycling" has become almost as fashionable a term as "conservation"; but I do not think we need to be mesmerised by the magic of words. There is nothing really new about re-cycling; we have had it with us for a long time. But I think that in the present circumstances the need for paying more attention to the re-cycling of waste materials is almost as important as it was during the days of the two World Wars. It is no longer just a minor matter of local government administration. It has to be lifted to the level of national economic necessity.
At the moment, we have an adverse trade balance which last month was £270 million; it was over £370 million in the month before that. We know that we shall have an adverse trade balance next year of perhaps £1,500 million—probably more. At the same time, the prices of all the raw materials we have to buy in the markets of the world are soaring: copper has doubled in price in the past year, lead has doubled in price, tin has doubled in price, zinc has risen by between three and four times during the past year and rubber is now at the highest peak that many of us can remember. The price of paper has been rising consistently over recent years, and we are faced with a further 20 per cent. increase from January 1 next. Some materials are in a state of actual physical shortage. We have to adjust ourselves to what is in the nature of a siege economy. I do not want those two words to be taken too literally, but the atmosphere in which we have to operate during the next few years is certainly going to be one where many raw materials are either scarce, or are almost unobtainable because of price.
I do not want to exaggerate the situation. Reclamation is already with us in a very big way, and as the noble Lord has said, a great deal of it is carried out by private commercial firms. Forty-two per cent. of the copper we use has been recycled; over 60 per cent. of the lead, 50 per cent. of the iron and steel, 20 per cent. of the aluminium and 18 per cent. of the tin that we use. But is enough

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being done? I do not think it is. This is where we have to get the local authorities to undertake more vigorous work on reclamation, and to do it in a mood of patriotic endeavour, not necessarily in a strict book-keeping sense.
We are at present throwing away far too many valuable materials. I have mentioned that only 18 per cent. of tin is being reclaimed. We throw into dustbins 300 million tin aerosols every year. Over 1,000 million beer, soft drink and fruit tins are similarly being thrown away each year. Why are we not recovering more of the tin and steel that these represent? I know it can be done. More than fifty years ago I was in charge of the Costing Department of the Birmingham Corporation Refuse Disposal Department. That was before I degenerated into journalism. We used to collect millions of tins each year, bale them and then export them to Germany where, with the aid of an electrical process, they separated the tin from the steel base and both the tin and the steel were subsequently used in German industry—and, for all we know, perhaps some of that steel came back to us in the shape of bombs during the last world war.
Our position is difficult now so far as the acquisition of raw materials is concerned. It is going to be more difficult still, because many of what we used to call the backward countries are now rapidly developing and will themselves be using many of the raw materials for which we and similar countries were previously the only market. Furthermore, the supply of some of these materials is not inexhaustible. That is why I feel that this is not a mere matter of municipal administration, not a mere matter of financial book-keeping to see whether it pays a certain council to reclaim certain materials which go to its tips or destructors. I think this is of very great importance in the national economy. The cost of this reclamation is only one facet of the problem. The other facet is our balance of payments. We must do something to improve our balance of payments, for that is vital to the future of this country.
5.55 p.m.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: I rise to speak to Amendment No. 7. This Amendment has been tabled in the hope
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that it may be helpful. It is making it the duty of a disposal authority to include in the plan it prepares information as to a number of things. Paragraph (g) reads:
"the estimated costs of the methods of disposal mentioned in the plans"
The Amendment would add:
"… any estimated benefits whether of a financial nature or otherwise which in the opinion of the disposal authority may accrue as a result of the reclamation of substance from the said waste".
It is quite clear that your Lordships are fairly unanimous in feeling that a great deal more needs to be done in reclaiming and re-cycling waste than has been the case. My noble friend Lord Leather-land has laid some emphasis on the fact that frequently opportunities for the reclamation of waste are lost because the public and industry generally are not aware of what is being discarded. I sometimes think that those who have persuaded us that we need not bother about empty bottles have done a very great deal to create the atmosphere where the public thinks that articles that could be used again can quite easily be thrown away. I think they carry a heavy responsibility for persuading us that we need not worry; we can put our empties in the dustbin, they will be dumped, and that is the end of it.
This Amendment seeks to make the point that it is not only a matter of the financial gain that might follow reclamation and re-cycling, but it takes a rather broader view. It is a question of whether as a nation we need the reclamation and re-cycling of waste. I would venture to suggest that the Amendment might well improve the present low level of waste recovery. In any case. I would suggest that the Government justifiably might be asked to give guidance to the collection and disposal authorities from time to time (I think it needs to apply to both of them) on the potential means of recycling waste. I hope that the Amendment will commend itself to the Government. I should like to think that they regard it as being helpful.
LORD REDCLIFFE-MAUD: May I raise a quick voice in the wilderness? I agree with everything that has been said about the importance of re-cycling and reclaiming. I believe the people of this

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country would entirely agree with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Leather-land, said, but we have had two instances mentioned, in Tottenham and Birmingham, where over the last years, long before the general public was aroused to the problems, locally elected authorities took an initiative and under their powers did what they could, in a way that I know the late Lord Morrison would have greatly approved. I would ask the Committee, before we spell it out in even greater detail, to consider what local authorities in our opinion must take account of and must give information about, and whether we cannot trust these local authorities, now that we have reformed local government, to do still better. I suggest that even though this Bill already spells it out, we should consider whether the local authorities are not really capable of sharing in our enthusiasm in the new move towards re-cycling and reclaiming, and doing some of these things for themselves.
VISCOUNT STONEHAVEN: I want just to support, anyway in principle, both Amendments 5 and 7, but I would draw attention to the brilliant work which has been done in the Government laboratory at Warren Springs, where they have a laboratory scale plant which does all the things we have been talking about. I thoroughly support it, and I think it should be pushed strongly. There is one other problem. I come from Scotland. Most of these plants are geared to an intake of something like a million people. In the whole of Scotland there are 5 million people, and the problem in Scotland is to induce small local authorities to collect their waste, properly separate it, and take it to a centre. That is a completely different problem from that existing—not that it should not be tackled; it should be—in the highly populated areas in England. I should like to support completely, in theory anyway and in spirit, both these Amendments.
6.1 p.m.
BARONESS YOUNG: I have listened with great interest to what I think we all regard as one of the most important debates we have had in Committee on this subject. Re-cycling was a matter raised by the majority of the noble Lords who spoke at Second Reading, and I went hack to read very carefully what they had said. We must consider our remarks to-day against the background
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of the very serious energy crisis which we are considering as a country. In principle, no one can be against recycling or reclamation of waste materials. The whole idea of recovering valuable products from otherwise discarded waste appeals to our ideas of thrift; but at a time such as we have at the moment of serious and growing concern about the long-term availability of many resources on a national and local scale, we should, as a matter of prudence, investigate thoroughly the possibility of effective and useful recovery of waste materials. Therefore, the Government's attitude is entirely favourable to re-cycling where this can be sensibly and usefully done. Indeed, as I indicated at Second Reading, there are over 1,000 firms involved in the reclamation business at present, recovering metals, waste paper, rubber, textiles, solvents and a wide range of other materials.
I was most interested to hear what my noble friend, Lord Merrivale, said about this. Not only did he confound us, but he indicated quite rightly what a very complex business this is. It is not something which is simple to do. Often the capital equipment required for it can be very expensive. I was very glad to hear from the noble Lord. Lord Redcliffe-Maud, what local authorities were doing. Lord Sainsbury mentioned Edmonton. My noble friend, Lord Strathcona, and I. visited the plant last week. It is a very impressive sight. I think I am right in saying that it takes the household refuse from a number of London boroughs. It is an incinerator. The ash is used for fill on roads. The metal objects are extracted by magnets, and the metal waste is sold. I think I am right in saying—it is rather a technical matter—that it generates enough electricity to light and heat a town about the size of Bath. One cannot help but be very impressed by this example of local authority work. It has had its difficulties, but it is now working very well. Of course, it is an extremely expensive proposition. I have not had the opportunity to visit the plant at Birmingham, or the one at Nottingham, which I believe as an experiment is heating part of its city by burning waste. They are all very good examples of local authority enterprise.
Having said that, I should say that we believe that more could and should be done to encourage the positive use of

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waste materials. We accept that this Bill can be made the vehicle for some of the necessary encouragement to do this. I said at Second Reading that there are two important proposals in the Bill which relate to re-cycling and reclamation. Under Clause 2(2)(e) the disposal authorities are required to consider the reclamation of waste substances in preparing their disposal plans. Under Clause 12(3)(c) they are given a very broad power to
"use, sell or otherwise dispose of the waste or anything produced from it",
which should enable them to do a great deal in the recovery field. A great deal of waste is now used for land reclamation. We should make a great mistake if we did not recognise that, apart from the value of disposing of refuse, this provides a great public service in that it brings back into use land which otherwise has no real value at all. On our visit to various disposal sites last week, we saw pictures of an area near Heathrow of between 39 and 40 acres which has been tipped with rubbish and is now in use at least for grazing purposes. Of course, such tipped land can be used afterwards as building land or as a public open space or playing fields.
We believe that the provisions already within the Bill are important. We accept, however, that it ought to be possible to strengthen and improve them. In view of the wide concern which has been expressed by noble Lords, we have ourselves been considering what more we could usefully do in the present Bill. We are not yet ready with our detailed Amendments, but I think it would be helpful to the Committee if I explained our general thinking on this subject. The main point is to ensure that the possibilities for reclaiming waste materials are properly examined and evaluated when the disposal of those wastes is under consideration. Too often waste materials from every kind of source are discarded and abandoned because no one has taken the trouble and effort to work out what could usefully and economically have been done with the wastes. What is needed is that responsible people should find out in detail what wastes are arising in their area and think out whether or not such materials could be used in a positive way. This is again the point that Lord Merri-
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vale was making when he said we need a thorough survey of the waste materials arising in an area.
As I said just now, Clause 2(2)(e) already requires a disposal authority to consider reclamation along with other methods of disposal in preparing their disposal plans, but we could consider laying a positive duty on them to keep in mind the scope for reclamation of waste materials situated in their areas and to investigate the possibilities for separate collection, or the separation of different waste materials with a view to the possible recovery of those which are useful. That is the kind of proposal which the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, and the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, had in mind in the remarks they made.
VISCOUNT AMORY: I wonder whether I could interrupt my noble friend for one moment at this point. I imagine that sorting is a formidable difficulty in many cases. Would it help much if householders or commercial concerns segregated their waste into different categories, or would that be too difficult? If it is desirable, would local authorities have the power to influence householders and commercial firms to do that?
BARONESS YOUNG: Some local authorities already ask people to separate waste paper, and they provide a container to do this. There is nothing to prevent any local authority from doing that at present.
LORD GARNS WORTHY: I wonder whether the noble Baroness has any idea how many local authorities—I realise it covers the country and it may be a big thing—collect waste paper and how many do not, because, to my knowledge, there has been a tremendous fall-off in this matter. I do not want to go into another debate, but the information could be very helpful.
BARONESS YOUNG: I do not in fact have the exact number of authorities who do it, but I will take steps to see whether I can get useful figures on this point. The noble Lord is quite right in saying that there has been a falling off. Of course, during the war householders were asked to separate all types of domestic waste, and it was a very acceptable thing in those circumstances to ask people to do so and then to go to the trouble of sorting it out. It is always difficult for a local authority

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to know how far it should be prepared to ask the residents and the commercial and industrial firms to sort out their waste and how far it is prepared to pay for different containers for them to put it in. All sorts of complicated matters are involved. It may well be that in the light of national circumstances public opinion will feel that this is something we should do, and local authorities will be prepared to make much greater efforts in this regard. But not only is there a question of making that acceptable to the public; there is the value of the product at the end. To get it they are going to some expense, and they would want to feel there is a use for it. I think it is perfectly true that whereas at certain times certain substances are wanted, in order to make it financially viable for a local authority to insist on this it must have a pretty steady market for the waste paper collected. I think this is something which can be done, and it is something which in the future must be looked at more thoroughly.
LORD LEATHERLAND: I wanted to try to answer the question which my noble friend Lord Garnsworthy put. There are about 400 local authorities in this country which do not deal separately with their waste paper.
BARONESS YOUNG: I thank the noble Lord. It is in fact 400 out of 1,300 local authorities, who in fact sort out the paper, and it is thought that about 350,000 tons of waste paper is collected.
LORD LEATHERLAND: And the mills want another 200,000 tons.
BARONESS YOUNG: As I was saying, we do believe there is in fact a need to investigate further the possibility of collection and separation of different kinds of waste. Such consideration would need to be undertaken jointly by the disposal authorities and the collection authorities, since both would need to be involved in schemes for recovery. The requirement might, therefore, be for the disposal authorities and the collection authorities to consult together on reclamation with such other persons as would seem appropriate. This of course would be a reference to industrialists who would use the waste products, because clearly there would need to be close consultation between the two.
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Apart from a general duty of this kind, we must also ensure that the local authorities have adequate powers to undertake recovery operations where appropriate. As I have indicated, Clause 12(3)(c) is already drawn in fairly wide terms, but we will certainly undertake to look further at whether any more detailed powers are desirable for such purposes as the generation of heat or electricity from waste, on which there are later Amendments. In view of the joint interest of collection and disposal authorities on recycling, we may need to look again at their respective responsibilities and powers and the interaction between them. Joint working would obviously be desirable in any integrated scheme for the collection or separation of particular wastes by the collection authorities, and their subsequent' treatment' by the disposal authorities. Most importantly, we should need to re-examine the allocation of costs and receipts between the collection and disposal authorities in respect of such arrangements. On this, too, there are later Amendments which we shall wish to consider. I think a point is made by the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, in Amendment No. 7 on this matter of costs.
I hope I have said enough to indicate our approach to this important problem of re-cycling and the Amendments that have been put down. I will at a later stage introduce Amendments on this matter which will seek to meet the points that have been raised in these various Amendments. I hope, therefore, that having had that assurance, noble Lords who have moved these Amendments will feel willing to withdraw them.
BARONESS WHITE: I am sure we are all extremely grateful to the noble Baroness for her reply and for her assurance that the Government are going to take this matter very seriously. After this debate. I think no one could be in any doubt that this is a matter of considerable concern. Although she is quite correct in saying that there is one reference in Clause 2(2)(e). and another very vague reference in Clause 12, I have before me a letter that I have received from someone who takes a close interest in these matters, who did not realise what Clause 12 embodied. He says:
"The only reference to recovery of materials in the environment Bill is in half a sentence

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buried in a sub-paragraph. It is woefully inadequate."
I feel that all of us—the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, and the rest of us who put down Amendments on this subject—were entirely justified in doing so in order to emphasise the great importance of this matter. I am very well aware that one has to face a difficult economic problem in relation to certain substances; for instance, plastics. You may try to re-cycle plastics, but very often the end product just is not worth the cost of re-cycling. There are other materials. I was very much interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, said about glass. I understand from the speech made by the Under-Secretary in another place on November 22 that there are working parties on plastics, glass, paper and tin boxes. What I think is missing is some central point to which the individual local authorities could turn for advice, including technical advice and economic advice, on the best way of dealing with their own particular circumstances.
The noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, mentioned that the glass industry was of the opinion that there should be a recycling bureau. We have in the University College in Cardiff a very strong department on the re-cycling of waste, and we had a very interesting conference about a month ago, presided over by His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, at which the discussion on re-cycling was one of the main parts. Many of us felt that there should be something of this nature, a waste resources board or whatever you like to call it, to which people could turn for advice. I understand there are such institutions in the United States and in Japan. The Government should take this seriously, though it would not necessarily come into this Bill, as a matter of policy when we are setting out on a new era in dealing with waste disposal.
BARONESS YOUNG: I wonder whether I may answer that point. I think it is a very real one. Along with the other proposals, we are considering the setting up of an organisation such as an advisory council, rather on equivalent lines to that we might have for noise. How its composition would be worked out is not clear at this stage, but clearly it would require
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people from central Government. from industry and possibly from universities. I think we have in mind the kind of suggestion the noble Baroness has made.
BARONESS WHITE: I am delighted to hear it. Whether an advisory council is the best way of doing it I am not sure. I think one needs an institution of some kind to bring together the work which is going on in many fields and in many universities. The noble Viscount, Lord Stonehaven, mentioned Warren Springs. A great deal is being done there; but it is at the moment rather scattered and unco-ordinated. Busy people in local authorities have a great deal to do. One would like them to be able to turn to a central point.
I was not terribly impressed with Lord Redcliffe-Maud's comments because, after all, one can count on the fingers of one hand the number of local authorities who are in fact doing what Edmonton and Nottingham are doing, for example, in the use of waste for heating. The mills really grind much too slowly. In our Amendment we suggest that local authorities, in carrying out the investigations which they are under an obligation under the Bill to carry out, should seek advice. I should have thought that that was the least one should expect them to do.
May I say one more word on the question of cost? I hope that in any central body which is established, whether an advisory council or research institute, or whatever it might be, this matter of costs can be carefully examined. It is not always economic at the present level. It is a chicken and egg situation. Some materials, if you re-cycle them in relatively small quantities, would not be an economic proposition. If, on the other hand, you could make the transition to a much larger quantity and reduce the cost by economies of scale, then you might get a much better demand for the materials, which would then he cheaper than the virgin raw materials which you would otherwise probably be importing from overseas. It would not be appropriate to go into the details of this.
I have had an interesting memorandum sent to me on this question. This is one of the most important points, because we shall not get adequate conservation of our resources unless we can solve some of the economic problems.

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This may be a place where Government assistance might he necessary and helpful in helping with the provision of plant, even on an experimental basis, to see whether we can break through this barrier of cost and the economies of scale.
We are most grateful to the noble Baroness for what she has said, and we shall await with intense interest the alternatives that she is proposing to put forward. We shall not move Amendment No. 5. I shall leave it to the noble Lord, Lord Craigton, who moved his Amendment No. 4.
LORD CRAIGTON: I listened with great care to what the Minister said. She said that she was going to strengthen the powers to consult, investigate, and cooperate. The noble Baroness, Lady White, said that what her Amendment did was to add that they should seek advice. It says, "to seek advice with a view to adopting". The one short point that I want to make is that I bear strongly in mind, as do my noble friends, that there will be a financial burden on the disposal or collection authorities, but that, as the noble Baroness, Lady White, said, these may well be offset by the value of the re-cycled waste. When the noble Baroness comes to draft what she has promised, I hope that she will make everything possible just as soon as it becomes worth while. That is what we want to see. We realise that local authorities cannot do at once everything that ought to be done. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNTROYAL LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNTROYAL moved Amendment No. 6:
Page 2, line 27, leave out ("the said waste") and insert ("controlled waste in its area").
The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend Lady Young, I beg leave to move Amendment No. 6, which is a simple drafting Amendment. Clause 2(2) lists various matters which are to be included by the waste disposal authorities in their disposal plans. Several of the matters refer to information to be included about "controlled waste", but at paragraph (e) a reference to "the said waste" has intruded. The proposed Amendment substitutes "controlled waste" so that it conforms to the drafting employed elsewhere in the subsec-
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tion. That is all this Amendment is about.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
6.25 p.m.
LORD HENLEY LORD HENLEY moved Amendment No. 8:
Page 2. line 36, at end insert—
("(h) the after-treatment of the disposal site following the period specified in the plan;").
The noble Lord said: This Amendment seeks to add something to what the disposal authority is to include in its plan, and it deals with after-treatment. This is to try to bring it in line with what local authorities often do with regard to planning for mineral extraction, or for the extraction of sand and gravel. Often one has, in extracting sand and gravel, to make an awful mess. This is sometimes inevitable, but what one can at least do is ensure that it is put hack as best as it possibly can be. This should also apply to the after-treatment of sites for disposal of waste, which are often extremely unsightly and not properly dealt with.
I do not want to fall into the error to which the noble Lord, Lord Redcliffe-Maud, drew attention, and to try to spell out in too great detail what a local authority—in this case a disposal authority—is supposed to do, as if that disposal authority were incapable of doing it. Nevertheless, something should be said about it, or, if the Government think it should not, I should want to know why. I cannot find that covered in the Bill. There is something about it in Clause 2(2)(e), which deals with disposal and reclamation. Again, as the noble Baroness, Lady White, mentioned, there is a vague reference to the question of disposal in Clause 12. However, none of these really cover what I am getting at, which is the after-treatment of the site. Nor would it have been covered if the noble Baroness's Amendment No. 1, dealing with public authorities having regard to pollution, had been accepted. It seems to me that it is a useful addition to what is required of a disposal authority, and I beg to move.
BARONESS YOUNG: I am sure that we all have a great deal of sympathy with Lord Henley's proposal about the after-treatment of disposal sites. Clearly, after rubbish has been tipped the site should be left in as tidy and orderly a condition

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as possible, because it is going to be either left as an open space or used for something else. This is a matter of importance. We do not think that the Amendment is in quite the right place. The noble Lord is suggesting that it should be part of the waste disposal plan. That of course comes as the first stage. The waste disposal authority will draw up a plan. What the plan should in general terms include is set out under Clause 2(2) in these various further subsections. But the type of plan that it will be can only be stated in terms of the general matters; and the actual conditions attached to the running of each disposal site must inevitably vary because each authority will be different and each authority will have different problems with which to deal.
To include a stipulation about landscaping at this overall plan-making stage would be to put it in the wrong place, because we do not consider that these general, overall plans should contain this detailed advice about the conditions to be imposed upon a particular disposal site. However, we have considered this matter, and we are proposing an Amendment to Clause 4(7) which will provide that site licence conditions should indicate the steps to be taken with a view to facilitating compliance with any conditions of the planning permission in force for the site. This means that we hope to meet the point of the noble Lord, Lord Henley, later on in the Bill in those clauses which deal both with planning permission (which will of course include detailed conditions about the site and the condition in which it should be left when it is no longer used for tipping) and with licensing conditions, so that the licensing conditions will be in step with the planning permission. I therefore hope that the noble Lord, Lord Henley, will be able to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD HENLEY: I am much obliged to the noble Baroness. I hope that I have not missed what she is going to do in one of the Amendments she already has down. I have been caught out by this once before, in not having read Amendment No. 212. Have I missed it in the Amendments down in the noble Baroness's name under Clause 4, or is it something which will be put down at a later stage?
BARONESS YOUNG: We shall be putting it down at a later stage.
LORD HENLEY: I am much obliged to the noble Baroness. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.32 p.m.
VISCOUNT AMORY VISCOUNT AMORY moved Amendment No. 9:
Page 3, line 13, after ("Wales,") insert ("each other disposal authority in the area of the county within which the disposal authority is situated and with")
The noble Viscount said: I beg to move Amendment No. 9, and I should like to speak briefly also to No. 10. I am venturing to do something that I have never had the nerve to do before, which is to speak on behalf of Wales. I think noble Lords know that, generally, the counties in Wales would have preferred that the disposal functions should have been laid on counties rather than on districts, as in the case of England. However, I do not propose to pursue that point at this stage; but what the Welsh counties do feel is that it really is important that waste disposal plans made by a district should be related at least to the county in which that district is.
The suggested Amendments do not in any way alter the statutory responsibilities of the new Welsh district councils; in fact, there is already in this clause a provision requiring a district to consult with the county. What is suggested here is that districts should not only consult with the county but consult also with each other.
It is proposed in Amendment No. 10 that this should be done through a joint committee, the constitution of the committee and other consequential matters being left to be prescribed in regulations to be made by the Secretary of State. I know that consultation runs the whole way through this Bill, as indeed it does through the whole of the new Local Government Act. My noble friend may say that it is difficult to go on laying down in detail that consultation is required, but it seems that in this particular case, in relation to Wales (that, at any rate, is the opinion I think held by the counties), it would be helpful if the districts within a county consulted together, and not only with the county council

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itself, to make sure that whatever is done is related to the interests of the county as a whole. I beg to move.
BARONESS WHITE: I am delighted to welcome the interest of the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, in the affairs of the Principality, more particularly as I happen to agree with him. It is of course perfectly true that under the Local Government Act the situation in Wales is different from that in England in so far as the Welsh districts are both the collection and the disposal authorities. But this, I think, is going to lead to very great difficulties in the industrial areas of Wales, particularly: far less so, I would surmise, in the rural counties. When the division of responsibilities for the Welsh local authorities under reorganisation was determined, it was very natural, think, that one should wish to place as many responsibilities as one reasonably could upon districts which had formerly been very noble counties in their own right—and there were a number of them in Wales. One could go through the list—Anglesey, Caernarvon, Merioneth, Montgomery, Cardigan and so on. These counties now become districts; so one can well understand the reasons why this particular disposition was made in the Principality.
But when one looks at the industrialised counties—and I have a list here of the districts in the North-East corner of Wales, in what is going to be the new county of Glwyd, in Gwent and in the three counties in Glamorgan—one sees that they illustrate the point made on Second Reading by the noble Lord, Lord Beeching, in, I thought, an extremely interesting and powerful speech when he spoke of the
"ill-match between sources of waste and disposal facilities".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27/11/73, cot. 60.]
Now some of these districts are quite small—and I speak with the most intimate knowledge of Flintshire, which was once my constituency. These areas, by themselves, and independently, are quite inappropriate for the disposal of waste material. I have had representations both from the shadow authority of Clwyd and from Glamorgan pointing out the extreme difficulties that will arise unless some
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special arrangements are made. As I say, the difficulties will be of particular significance in the industrial areas. In Flintshire, of course, we have an even greater difficulty because we are expected to take sometimes extremely toxic chemical waste from Cheshire. Apparently Cheshire, within its borders, does not have adequate facilities for disposal of some very disagreeable waste, so they bring it across the Border into Wales; and the county authorities there are, as I say, most disturbed at what may happen if this kind of disposal is not carefully planned between the various districts within their area. We have not had time to have the fullest possible discussion with all the Welsh counties, but they have considered this matter and no doubt it is for this reason that the noble Viscount Lord Amory, with his well-known interest in county council matters, has tabled these Amendments.
The meeting of the Welsh Counties, which is a sub-division of the County Councils Association, was held a couple of days ago. There is therefore this proposition, which will enable the conscience of the districts to remain unimpaired. They will remain the disposal authorities, of course—we are not suggesting for one moment that they should not—and also the collecting authorities; we do not want to upset that. But I think two things are necessary. My own later Amendment, No. 17, also refers to this situation in Wales, where we think that mere consultation, as suggested in the Bill as it stands, is not sufficient. I think we are going to have a—chaotic is perhaps too strong a word, but at any rate a very difficult situation unless we can he quite certain that there will be consultation between the neighbouring disposal authorities. As I shall hope to say when we reach Amendment No. 17, in my view there should be not merely consultation with the county as the planning authority but also the agreement of the county as the planning authority, subject always to the agreement of the Secretary of State where desirable. However, at this point I would only say that all the advice which I have received—and I have received a good deal in the past few weeks from various acquaintances and friends of mine in Welsh local government circles—is that these two Amendments should be accepted, and I hope they will be.
6.40 p.m.
LORD ABERDARE: I should like to welcome my noble friend Lord Amory to the ranks of those of us who speak on matters concerning the Celtic fringe. If I had one dispute with him about what he said it would be that he said he spoke on behalf of Wales, because others of us think that we also speak on behalf of Wales. But I am very concerned to answer his points which I am sure have great validity. The noble Baroness, Lady White, as she said, has another Amendment later in the list, No. 17, and perhaps we could go into the points she raised in more detail later. The noble Baroness goes further than my noble friend, requiring the agreement of the county council; my noble friend asks for consultation and a joint committee. When the noble Baroness was referring to the small districts and the difficulties they would have with waste disposal, I could not help thinking of my own small district, Mountain Ash Urban District Council, one of the first in Wales to install any reclamation plant for waste disposal. They did it a great many years ago, when the only other one that existed happened to be in Scotland. It is still working and I think they deserve great credit for it.
My noble friend has explained what he is after by his Amendments. Amendment No. 9 is designed to require that one disposal authority, one district, should consult all the other districts in its county area as well as the county council. There is already within the clause as it is drafted, provision for early consultation with the appropriate county council, and for considering at a later stage representations that might be made about the content of the draft plan. There is also in Clause 12 provision for consultation where the waste of one area may be disposed of in another waste disposal authority's area. I think that covers the point that was made by the noble Baroness, Lady White, about Flint and the neighbouring English district. Under Clause 12 consultations would be required between the two districts.
I agree that in principle other waste disposal authorities might wish to be consulted about the intentions of their neighbours. But I do not agree that this need be arranged as a statutory process within the framework of the county area.
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I am quite certain that in circumstances where it is desirable local authorities will consult with each other without having to be ordered to do so. The disadvantage of a compulsory county framework would I think be, for example, that it would require consultation between the Montgomery District Council and the Brecknock District Council because they would both be in the same county. But it would not require the much more likely need for consultation, between, say, the Rhymney Valley District and the adjoining District of Tonfaen because they would be in different counties. So I do not think that Amendment No. 9 would add very much; indeed, it might discourage the very consultations which we are seeking to provide.
So far as the next Amendment of my noble friend is concerned, about a joint committee, we have already decided, in the local Government Act of 1972, the question of the refuse disposal function, which in Wales is at district level. This was debated in your Lordships' House as well as in another place, and if my recollection is right, the noble Baroness, Lady White, was in favour of its being a district function in England as well—at least, that is the way in which she cast her vote. The issue in Wales has been settled at the otuset and the function remains, as it has been since 1936, the duty of the district councils. The Amendment suggesting a joint committee implies a measure of doubt about the adequacy of these consultative processes particularly as they concern the new Welsh county councils. I should like to reassure my noble friend on this score that the county councils will have all the planning control they need over land use, which is the major factor in this matter.
I will go into rather more detail on this matter when we come to Amendment No. 17, but I hope that what I have said is sufficient to convince my noble friend that while we are determined that there shall be full consultation we do not think that putting it in the statutory form he suggests would be of any advantage.
VISCOUNT AMORY: I have listened carefully to what my noble friend has said, and I agree with him that we must rely on the habit and the practice of consultation between local authorities in all cases where it seems common sense on

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their part to do so, perhaps without laying it down specifically in every case in the Bill. My noble friend reminded us that consultation between a particular district and the county is required under the Bill. I suppose my noble friend visualises that if in the course of consultation the county felt a particular district should consult its neighbours, it would point that out and hope that the consultation would take place informally. If my noble friend is really sure that the required amount of consultation will be assured so far as possible under the provisions of the Bill as it stands, I shall not feel justified in pressing my Amendments further. I hope that, in one way or another, all the consultation that is required, particularly in the cases to which the noble Baroness, Lady White, referred in the industrialised areas of Wales, will take place. I understand that my noble friend is giving us his opinion that all the necessary consultation will take place, and I therefore beg leave to withdraw my Amendment No. 9.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.48 p.m.
LORD HENLEY LORD HENLEY moved Amendment No. 11:
Page 3, line 19, leave out ("such persons as are prescribed") and insert ("the owners and occupiers of the lands which the disposal authority propose shall be the sites for disposing of controlled waste, and such other persons as are prescribed;").
The noble Lord said: My Amendment also is about consultation; indeed I have several others on the same point. I fear that I may get the same sort of answer as was given to the noble Viscount, Lord Amory. It is on consultation in no small measure that the success or otherwise of the disposal authorities will depend, and I hope that on some of the Amendments which I propose to move the Government will bear that very much in mind and will come some way towards meeting me. This particular Amendment seeks to add to "such persons as are prescribed" further people. The existing wording does not seem to me to go far enough and the fact that the "persons" are to be " prescribed " by regulation is not altogether satisfactory. It seems to me that people on the land, who have their being by it and know about it, the owners arid the occupiers, should be consulted in the
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first place. It may be that they are consulted as a matter of course; that may be implicit in the Bill, although I have not noticed it. I am not sure what is the form with regard to other Acts of a similar kind where, as a last resort, land is taken by compulsory purchase from an owner or occupier or what degree of consultation is provided for. But here it seems to me, especially with regard to disposal sites (I spoke just now about the after-treatment of disposal sites, and in a way this follows on that), that the owner or occupier should be consulted. I hope that I shall get some comfort from the Government.
VISCOUNT AMORY: At first sight, certainly the proposal the noble Lord, Lord Henley, has made seems to be a reasonable one. If it is severely frowned on, I suppose he and I will have to leave the Chamber to hold some kind of indignation meeting.
LORD ROCHESTER: I should like to support briefly what my noble friend and the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, have had to say about consultation. My experience has been in industry rather than as a landowner—apart, that is, from hacking about on my two acres in Cheshire. After what the noble Baroness, Lady White, said about Cheshire, I am not sure that I should confess to having both lived and worked there for some time; but that is the case. I suggest that the principles which underlie what can happen in joint consultation in industry should apply in this particular case. Increasingly one principle to which good management seeks to adhere in industry nowadays is that before taking decisions they should, as far as possible, consult with those who are likely to be affected by those decisions. It often happens that what is decided is then regarded as being better, not simply by those who have been consulted but by management—better, that is, than what would have been the case without the contributions of those affected by the decisions. I suggest that the same principles should be applied here and that all disposal authorities, in preparing their plans, would themselves benefit from consulting with owners and occupiers of the land of which they propose to make use. I should like to support what has

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been said, and I hope that the Government will in some way find it possible to accommodate this point in the Bill.
LORD HAWKE: I, too, support this proposal, not as a landowner but from the point of view that the owners or occupiers of the land are likely to be the people most able to represent the viewpoint of the local inhabitants. I well remember a case where the local authority, in an authoritarian manner, proceeded to locate a waste dump about 400 yards upwind of our local village. Eventually it got into the national Press through the rumpus created by two or three people, and ultimately the dump was closed. Those are the sort of people who should have been consulted in advance, and the dumps should never have been located there at all.
BARONESS YOUNG: There is no doubt that this Bill includes a number of occasions when there must be statutory consultation, and for all the reasons which have been advanced by noble Lords who have spoken this is a principle which we accept as being of importance. Indeed, subsection (3) makes it quite clear that in five cases there must be statutory consultation with various authorities that will be concerned in the waste disposal plan; and subsection (6), as the noble Lord, Lord Henley, has said includes
"such persons as are prescribed by the Secretary of State".
The noble Lord is suggesting that we should add yet another group of people with whom there should be statutory consultation. One of the difficulties is that it is very easy to multiply the list of people who should be statutorily consulted and therefore make a much more complicated situation. However, I think there is substance in the point that landowners should be considered. It could well be that we should consider the private waste disposal operators in this connection. So I am prepared to consider this Amendment to see whether we should make it include statutory consultation on the lines suggested.
LORD HENLEY: I am grateful to the noble Baroness, and beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
VISCOUNT AMORY: I now have no quorum for my indignation meeting.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
BARONESS YOUNG: In view of the time, and what we know of another function that is taking place this evening, I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House resumed.

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