Sitting of 19 October 1972

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  ANGLESEY MARINE TERMINAL BILL [Lords] (By Order)
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [17th October], That the Bill be now read the Third time.
  Debate further adjourned till Monday next.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

    Comprehensive Education
    Mr. Ashleyasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many plans for comprehensive systems of education she has now received; and how many she has rejected.
    The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): I informed the House in April, 1971, that I had discontinued the practice of approving non-statutory plans for the re-organisation of secondary education; before then I had approved three plans and rejected none.
    Mr. Ashley: The Minister may or may not be approving general plans. Is she aware that by refusing to sanction plans for specific schools she is sabotaging general plans? Will she therefore try to look at plans through a telescope rather than inspecting specific schools through a microscope?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I have a legal duty to look at individual proposals under the Education Acts. The precise figures are
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    that of 2,300 Section 13 proposals I have rejected only 92.
    Mr. Edward Short: My hon. Friend's point is valid. The right hon. Lady has approved thousands of projects but in many cases, by deleting one proposal, she makes nonsense of the whole scheme. Perhaps I might quote Kidderminster as an example. Her decision there made nonsense of the whole area scheme.
    Mrs. Thatcher: The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley) may have a valid point, but the answer is equally valid. I have to carry out my duties under the terms of the section.

    James Report (Consultations)
    Mr. Sydney Chapmanasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will make a statement on the progress of consultations on the James Report.
    Mr. Willeyasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will make a further report on the consultations on the James Report.
    Mrs. Thatcher: My consultations are almost complete. I hope to announce Government decisions on the issues raised in the report before the end of the year.
    Mr. Chapman: I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Realising that she received this important report only 10 months ago and that it contained 133 specific recommendations, may I ask whether she would be prepared to go a little further this afternoon and say what is in her mind concerning Recommendations 10 to 12 about the right of teachers, after seven years' service, to have release with pay for in-service training for courses of at least 12 weeks?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I hope to say something about in-service training when we give the decision on the whole report. I agree that that is a part of the report which has received almost universal acclaim. We hope to do something in that sphere.
    Mr. Willey: Whilst the right hon. Lady is considering her conclusions, will she realise that we have largely lost the impetus of the James Report and that

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    she would be well advised now to concentrate on those parts of the report which were generally accepted and to seek their speedy implementation?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I do not believe that we have lost any impetus at all. It is quite remarkable that we took only a year to get the report and have acted fairly quickly in having extensive consultations upon it. I still have two more organisations to see either next week or the week after. As soon as those are clear, I hope to put recommendations before the House.
    Mr. Moyle: Will the right hon. Lady confirm that the future of teacher training will be set out in the White Paper on higher education, which is being prepared, and thus remove all doubt that teacher training is in fact part of higher education?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I am not sure that a White Paper on higher education is being prepared. We hope to announce extensive decisions, including the James Report and, of course, the quinquennial settlement, which to some extent will include decisions about the polytechnics programme; and the future of teacher training colleges will be included in those decisions.

    Student Unions
    Mr. St. John-Stevasasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether she is in a position to make a further statement on the reform of student unions.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. William van Straubenzee): Discussions with the parties mainly concerned are not yet complete, and I expect further talks to take place this autumn.
    Mr. St. John-Stevas: Do not the recent disgraceful events at Stirling University, involving a tiny minority of students, and the subsequent inability of the student council, as reported today, to take any action, show that the decent, law-abiding majority need protection from the militant minority and that the best way of doing it is by appointing an impartial registrar of student unions?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: I do not think that I shall comment on individual sug-
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    gestions relating to this matter while consultations are going on, except to say that I slightly doubt whether they would have assisted in the events at Stirling. In respect of Stirling University, however, I feel sure that I express the views of the vast majority of the House when I say that what occurred there was a disgrace and ought never to have occurred, and that one of the most regret table feaures of all is that the present leadership of the National Union of Students has not felt able to condemn it out of hand.
    Mr. Ewing: Although I represent Stirling and Falkirk, Stirling University is not in my constituency. Nevertheless, it has to be said—and I trust that the Minister will be aware of this—that the events at Stirling University highlight the problem not of student unions but of university administration, not only at Stirling University but at all universities. Will the hon. Gentleman give his attention to this problem when he is considering questions which are biased and distorted by Members speaking from a background of ignorance rather than of fact?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: I hope that I have not got the correct inference from the hon. Gentleman's question, which seemed to have some element of support for what occurred. If that is the position, I do not support it in any way. I must make it clear that, as has been properly said, what occurred involved a minority of students, but I think that the rest of us are entitled to expect that the majority, who would always wish to show good manners to any visitor, would make their views very definitely heard.
    Sir Gilbert Longden: Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a demand among the great majority of moderate students for a registrar? As we are to look forward, we are told, to a lighter legislative programme, will my hon. Friend and his right hon. Friend take over the Bill which I introduced last Session?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: I am not sure that there is all that widespread support for one particular solution, but, as I have said, while consultations are in progress I do not think it would be right for me to come down firmly in respect of one solution or of another. It is impossible for me to forecast the legislative programme for the next Session.
    Mr. Edward Short: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of an even more reprehensible development in student politics? I am referring to the recent plan of the Monday Club to prepare dossiers on Left-wing militant students, which presumably will be made available to prospective employers. What has the hon. Gentleman to say about that?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: The only thing I know about it is what I have read in the Press. Certainly no action by my Department will encourage that kind of activity.

    School Transport
    Dr. Marshallasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when she now expects to receive the report of the working party on school transport.
    Mrs. Thatcher: I cannot forecast how long it will take the working party to complete its work and submit a report to me.
    Dr. Marshall: When the working party reports, will the right hon. Lady treat any recommendations which it makes as a matter of great urgency in order to remove both the dangers and the hardship faced by many scholars and parents, such as those living at Old Goole in my constituency?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I shall certainly do so, because I know of the widespread interest in this topic on both sides of the House.
    Mr. Madel: May I draw attention to the school transport situation in my constituency? Bedfordshire is in the process of going comprehensive, and certain parents in the Houghton Regis and Dunstable area have experienced difficulties in getting their children to school. Will my right hon. Friend have talks with the Bedfordshire Education Authority and local bus companies to see whether the difficulties can be overcome?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I think that local education authorities have sufficient discretionary powers to deal with transport. problems, but if my hon. Friend has any particular query in mind and raises it with the Department we shall do what we can to help.
    Mr. David Clark: Will the right hon. Lady give her assessment of the effect of
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    VAT on school transport, in view of the fact that it will be levied on certain means of school transport?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The discretionary powers of local education authorities will, I think, still be sufficient to deal with the matter if there were any increase.

    Nursery Schools (Wandsworth)
    Mr. Thomas Coxasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals she has for approving financial grants towards improving nursery schools in the London Borough of Wandsworth.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: Proposals submitted by the Inner London Education Authority under phase 7 of the urban programme include additional nursery schools and classes in the Wandsworth area. The list of approved projects has not yet been announced.
    Mr. Cox: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Such replies will be extremely welcome in Wandsworth, where we face many of the social problems which exist throughout inner London, such as poor housing and lack of social amenities, and any help that we can get from the Department or from the Inner London Education Authority will be warmly welcomed. I look forward to the publication of the help that is to be given.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman. He will be aware that announcements in respect of the urban programme will, as always, be made by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

    Sex Education
    Mr. Greville Jannerasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether she will now arrange through the school medical service for teaching aids required for sex education, including the danger of venereal disease, to be made available to local education authorities.
    Mrs. Thatcher: Information about teaching materials suitable for use in schools is circulated to local education authorities by the Health Education Council, and authorities can draw upon the services of school medical officers as appropriate.
    Mr. Janner: is the right hon. Lady aware of the appalling increase in the incidence of venereal disease, as revealed today in the report on the nation's health? Does she not think that the best way to combat this is through further health education in schools? Will she take steps to make suitable films and other aids available to schools and ensure that these are used so that young people are aware of the dangers they face?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I think I have already made clear that this is done by way of the Health Education Council. I am aware of the seriousness of the problem, but I think the hon. and learned Gentleman will agree that it is an easier problem to pose than to find precisely the right solution for it. It is a very sensitive problem, and in anything that one does through the schools one has to be careful not to do more harm than good.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied with the way in which sex education is conducted and also that the rights of parents who have expressed concern at different times are properly protected?
    Mrs. Thatcher: In the vast majority of cases, with very rare exceptions, if parents and teachers get together on this problem the rights of parents are respected.
    Mr. Deakins: Is there not a case, as in some other advanced countries, for eventually working towards a system whereby sex education becomes compulsory in the State school system?
    Mrs. Thatcher: There may be a case, but it is not one that I should support immediately.

    Nature Conservancy
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many Nature Conservancy establishments she has visited officially during the recess.
    Mrs. Thatcher: None, Sir.
    Mr. Dalyell: Is not this a bit of a pity when such radical alterations are being made to the Nature Conservancy? More constructively, what institutional arrangements will be made to ensure co-operation on a scientific basis between the Nature
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    Conservancy and the National Environment Research Council?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I believe the hon. Gentleman is well aware that Mr. Heaton has been appointed to advise upon the changes that will take place. We expect his report next month or the month after. When we have received it, we shall look at the institutional arrangements to ensure the kind of co-operation which I know the hon. Gentleman wishes to see.
    Sir H. Legge-Bourke: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the Government's statement of policy on the Nature Conservancy as contained in the White Paper commenting on the report of the Select Committee on Science and Technology is a great departure from the attitude when this matter was looked at by the Select Committee investigating the National Environment Research Council? Will my right hon. Friend consider issuing a White Paper separately setting out the real arguments why the change was thought wise?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I think that all possible changes in responsibility for the Nature Conservancy had some drawbacks to them, and some opponents. It was therefore thought, for reasons which have been set out, that it was best to keep the research functions with the National Environment Research Council—which I think my hon. Friend will support—and to put the Nature Conservancy element with the Department of the Environment. I think that that will work well provided we get full co-operation between those at the conservancy end and those responsible for research both in former Nature Conservancy laboratories and environmental matters in general in NERC itself.
    Mr. Lawson: Does not the right hon. Lady agree that to a large extent the high standing of the Nature Conservancy is due to the high personal quality of the management and research workers who have been attracted to it over the years? Does not the right hon. Lady fear that if this research work is taken away from the Nature Conservancy its credibility will he severely damaged and it may become not much more than a glorified organisation concerned with the keeping of parks?
    Mrs. Thatcher: No, Sir. I should not wholly agree with that. If we get the

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    degree of co-operation that we want, all will be well. I hope the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that there would be quite severe consequences if we were to separate the Nature Conservancy research from NERC itself. That, too, would meet with a good deal of opposition from many quarters.

    Mountain and Moor Visits
    Mr. David Clarkasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when she intends to publish her advice to schools and youth groups concerning the dangers of mountain and moorland visits in winter.
    Mrs. Thatcher: A departmental pamphlet entitled "Safety in Outdoor Pursuits" has been sent for printing and will be published early in November.
    Mr. Clark: Does the right hon. Lady realise that there has been one tragic accident already this season although we have not reached the most inclement weather, and will she do all in her power to try to issue the document to the schools as soon as possible? Will she also try to arrange as much publicity as possible to parents and teachers about the absolute need for safety on the mountains?
    Mrs. Thatcher: Yes, certainly. I have done my best to hurry up the printing process. I should like to say how sorry we all were to hear of that tragic accident. The pamphlet has taken a long time because we felt it necessary to have the maximum consultation with all the organisations which could give advice and contribute towards a very good pamphlet.
    Mr. Marten: Does the pamphlet make clear that even the simplest mountain can become extremely dangerous in certain weather? Therefore, does it advise that schoolchildren, particularly the younger ones, should not be taken out without someone experienced to accompany them?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The pamphlet makes clear absolutely the necessity for qualified leadership and proper equipment. I think my hon. Friend will be satisfied with the pamphlet when he sees it.
    Mr. Edward Short: Will the right hon. Lady ensure that the pamphlet goes to
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    independent schools as well as to others, because the recent accident involved boys from an independent school which has had two serious accidents in the last few years? Before she finally decides on the pamphlet, will the right hon. Lady look at the statement by Dr. Ogilvie, the leader of the Patterdale mountain rescue team which went to the rescue of the boys in the recent accident?
    Mrs. Thatcher: The pamphlet has already gone to the printers and to get it back now would, I am afraid, retard its publication, which I do not think the right hon. Gentleman would wish. I shall look at the statement to which he has referred.

    Education of the Deaf
    Mr. Redmondasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will seek to ascertain how many vacancies for full-time training for the specialist qualification in the education of the deaf there are at the Department of Audiology and Education of the Deaf at Manchester University, the University of London Institute of Education and the University of Oxford Institute of Education: and how many applicants there have been in the last three years.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: There is at present only one vacancy left for such training and that is at the University of London Institute of Education. Applications for the courses at London, Manchester and Oxford together numbered 250 in 1970, 230 in 1971 and 276 in 1972. Some candidates applied to more than one of the institutions.
    Mr. Redmond: Those figures are interesting, but does my hon. Friend agree that there have been instances when, in spite of the shortage of these valuable people in the schools for the deaf, there have been vacancies at the courses which have not been filled even though there have been suitably qualified candidates for them? Is not that a serious situation?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: I would be helped if my hon. Friend would give me details, because the provision of teachers in this specialist field is one about which we are deeply concerned. I have, by the figures my hon. Friend asked me to

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    give, shown that there is one vacancy. That does not entirely seem to show, at any rate in the current year, that qualified people have been turned away.
    Mr. Moyle: Would not this be an opportunity for the Under-Secretary to announce on behalf of his right hon. Friend that she was setting up a central advisory council for handicapped children under the 1944 Act so that the council could conduct an inquiry into special education and teacher training therefor, as was promised by the Prime Minister before the last election? That is one of the Prime Minister's pre-election promises that we would not like to see reversed.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: It would not be a suitable opportunity because it would overtake the fulfilment of that pledge in the way in which I think the hon. Gentleman knows, a way which covers a wide range of handicaps with which we are all concerned.

    Teachers' Superannuation
    Mr. Willeyasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress has been made in the review of teachers' superannuation schemes.
    Mrs. Thatcher: The working party has completed its review. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I have accepted its report. I have made the first of the new set of regulations, with effect retrospective to 1st April, 1972.

    Direct Grant Schools
    Mr. Spearingasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will make a statement concerning her proposals to adjust financial arrangements with direct grant schools.
    Mrs. Thatcher: Subject to parliamentary approval of the necessary amending regulations I propose to increase the annual capitation grant to the schools by £9 with effect from April, 1972. This sum is about one-third of the average increase in cost per pupil that the schools are having to meet from that date.
    Mr. Spearing: I thank the right hon. Lady for her answer. Can she now state the totals which are involved as well as
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    the increase? Does she agree that in making this increase she is doing her best to encourage the direct grant sector which, rather than providing simply parental increase of choice increases the choice of the schools and parents alike?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I agree that I am encouraging the direct grant sector and I believe that there is a great demand for such encouragement. The net cost to the Exchequer, if that is what the hon. Gentleman is seeking, is £600,000 in a full year. The net increase in public expenditure is very much less.
    Mr. Wilkinson: Will my right hon. Friend agree that the move by the Labour-controlled Bradford Education Authority to do away with free places at the local direct grant school is a direct blow at educational opportunity for the less privileged children in that part of the country?
    Mrs. Thatcher: Yes, I agree. It can do no good whatever to deprive a few children of the very best education which they can receive in the name of some egalitarian principle. The parents can apply directly to the direct grant school for a free place or an income-assisted place and they do not have to go through the local education authority.
    Mr. Raphael Tuck: Does not the right hon. Lady feel that she could change the title from "direct grant school" to "select grant school"?
    Mrs. Thatcher: As the hon. Gentleman will be aware if he has followed the Press recently, children have to be selected upon some basis or another and selection for comprehensive schools has caused as much trouble as selection for other schools.
    Mr. MeCrindle: Will my right hon. Friend consider giving still further encouragement to the direct grant schools by reopening the list?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I have to say "No" for the time being to my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Armstrong: Is the right hon. Lady aware that her figure of £600,000 is certainly not chicken-feed? I could tell her of educational priority areas in the north of England which with £600,000 could provide long-overdue facilities for children who have no choice in the school they attend.
    Mrs. Thatcher: The cost of the State taking over the direct grant schools would be very much greater and, therefore, I would expect the hon. Member to welcome the increase in grant.

    Priority Areas
    Mr. Spearingasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps she has taken to ascertain the long-term needs of the educational priority areas.
    Mrs. Thatcher: Through the urban programme, the increased allowance for teachers in schools of exceptional difficulty and through the school building programmes we have already made a positive contribution towards meeting the needs of educational priority areas. I am now considering the recommendations in Dr. Halsey's book "Educational Priority" published at the beginning of October.
    Mr. Spearing: I am glad that the right hon. Lady has considered the report, but does she not agree that, whatever is written in research institutions or by researchers, in the end success depends upon the people in the schools? Can she assure us that when considering the future of teacher training and teacher supply she will ensure an adequate supply of teachers to go to educational priority and other areas which will very shortly need more than one teacher per class in order that basic educational standards can be maintained?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I agree that the key to solving the problems of these areas lies in the teachers in the schools and parents in the home. The co-operation of both is required, with the co-operation of the social services, if the best is to be done for the children. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are not short of teachers to go to these areas at the moment and I am delighted to see a number of dedicated teachers operating in the primary schools in those areas.
    Mr. Edwin Wainwright: Will the right hon. Lady take into account that some areas of educational priority still have some very old schools? One school in my area, the Swinton Fitzwilliam Junior Mixed School, was built in, I think, 1853. It has no hall in which the children can take their meals and they have to
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    travel about 400 yards each way in very inclement weather to take their meals in another place. Will the right hon. Lady do something to make certain that a new school is built as soon as possible?
    Mrs. Thatcher: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will put that school to me and tell me what priority the local education authority has accorded to it in its recommendations, because that influences the decisions we make.

  DEFENCE

    Iceland (Fishing Dispute)
    Mr. Wallasked the Minister of State for Defence what further steps he is taking to protect British vessels fishing on the high seas off Iceland.
    The Minister of State for Defence (Lord Balniel): I would ask my hon. Friend to await the statement which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs will be making later this afternoon.
    The position on naval vessels is that a frigate is close at hand and can be ordered to the aid of British trawlers if necessary.
    Mr. Wall: I welcome that reply. Can my right hon. Friend confirm that this means that Her Majesty's ships will be available to intervene in any further incident? Does he agree that the recent action of the Icelandic gunboats has been dangerous to life, irresponsible and against international law?
    Lord Balniel: I can certainly confirm that British naval vessels are available and can be ordered to the assistance of British trawlers if needed. I condemn very vigorously the action of the gunboat, which was a serious hazard to life and property. There is widespread parliamentary and public concern about the resumption of harassment of British trawlers. But I ask my hon. Friend to await the more comprehensive statement that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will be making later.

    V/STOL Aircraft
    Mr. Wallasked the Minister of State for Defence if he will make a further statement on the operation of the short

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    take-off and landing or vertical short take-off and landing aircraft by ships of the Royal Navy.
    Lord Balniel: We are examining as quickly as possible the implications of operating V/STOL aircraft from ships. The project definition study has now been authorised work is being carried on and the study should be completed in a few months.
    Mr. Wall: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the study will mean adapting the existing Harrier for naval operations or a new and modified aircraft, and whether the study is investigating the operation of the aircraft from "Blake" and county class cruisers as well as the new through-deck command cruisers?
    Lord Balniel: The project definition study is to take account of the fact that the present Harrier is designed for a ground support role and that it needs modifying for the maritime role by adding appropriate weapons systems, avionics and other equipment. The implications of these modifications are being studied, but certainly the through-deck cruiser is designed to carry the aircraft should it be decided to use them.
    Mr. Warren: Can my right hon. Friend tell us whether the project definition study includes an improved engine for the aircraft, the Pegasus 15, which is essential, first, if the aircraft is to perform successfully for the Navy, and, secondly, as a sales potential for the United States Navy, which is very interested in several hundred of the aircraft if it has that engine in it?
    Lord Balniel: My hon. Friend will appreciate that the Pegasus 15 would be too large to be fitted to the existing Harrier without a substantial framework modification, because the Pegasus 15 proposal is significantly different from merely uprating the existing engine.

    Northern Ireland
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Minister of State for Defence what progress has been made in controlling the Irish border and preventing its violation for hostile purposes.
    Lord Balniel: The security forces continue to control the border as effectively
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    as is practicable. The requirement for further measures is kept constantly under review.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Is my right hon. Friend aware that I was on the Fermanagh border at the time of the murder of Mr. and Mrs. Bullock and was made aware of the intense resentment at the absence of a localised security force? May I also ask him why cars such as those used by the murderers are free to cross the border along main roads without the authorisations which were required in previous troubles?
    Lord Balniel: I was aware that my hon. Friend visited the area. He expresses concern about a murder which is shared throughout the House. I think he will appreciate that a total of more than 240,000 cars were searched in September, compared with an average of about 100,000 per month until April. This is a substantial increase in the number of searches which take place at the border, but my hon. Friend will understand that 50,000 vehic es cross the border every day and the searches are a major task.
    Mr. Fitt: the right hon. Gentleman aware that only last week extreme Unionist forces, the UDA, crossed the border in the other direction and planted explosives in the Republic? Will he pay some attention to preventing that sort of crime from taking place?
    Lord Balniel: The task of the security forces is to confront terrorism or lawlessness, from whatever quarter it might come, with the utmost determination. That has been their task in the past and it will continue to be their task as long as they are required to undertake it.
    Mr. Stratton Mills: Will my right hon. Friend give his assessment of the extent of the movement of men and materials across the border. Is he fully satisfied that the Republican Government in Southern Ireland are giving the maximum support in dealing with the question.
    Lord Balniel: Certainly there is a passage of explosives illegally across the border, and the security forces do their best to diminish it as far as possible. The Government of the Republic have taken steps to improve the security situation on their side of the border, but we should

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    welcome yet greater co-operation from them.
    Mr. McNamara: Reverting to the question of security on the border and the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt), can the Minister of State say whether in the discussions which took place between representatives of Her Majesty's Forces and of the UDA any reference was made to claims by the UDA that it had gone across the border, and whether part of the equation for bringing peace is that they also undertook not to put British troops at risk in border areas by excursions into the Republic, in the same way as our troops have been put at risk by excursions into the North from the Republic?
    Lord Balniel: It would not be right for me to select certain parts of a discussion which took place, but the main points of the representations made were to emphasise that Protestant violence represented a serious change in the security situation, serious in that it means a new dimension of disorder and also because it diverts the security forces from their task of ending IRA terrorism.
    Sir Gilbert Longden: Is it not becoming daily more obvious that it is the existence of the border which is preventing our winning this war? What advice do the military authorities give to my right hon. Friend about sealing it? There is a much longer border running across the length of Europe which is so impenetrable that it is known as the Iron Curtain.
    Lord Balniel: As I have explained on numerous occasions in the House, the Government consider it impracticable to seal the border, which is over 300 miles long. Sealing it would involve such a major dislocation in the life of the community that it is not regarded as practicable. It would also mean the diversion of security forces in large numbers from those places where it is considered their prime duty lies.
    Mr. Merlyn Rees: Is there any liaison between the British security forces and the increased Irish Army forces which have recently moved up on to the border?
    Lord Balniel: When an act of terrorism is suspected of having been perpetrated
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    from across the border, there are communications from the security forces in Northern Ireland to the police on the side of the Government of the Republic.

    HMS "Newcastle"
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Minister of State for Defence when he proposes to proceed with the building of HMS "Newcastle" on the Tyne at Swan Hunters.
    Lord Balniel: Prefabrication work is already in hand and it is planned to lay the keel of this vessel within the next few months.
    Dame Irene Ward: May I thank my noble Friend for that very satisfactory answer and say how delighted and proud the north of England will be that we are to have a new HMS "Newcastle"? May she sail the seas with the credit that that name always has earned for many years.
    Lord Balniel: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those words. May I reciprocate by assuring her that the Royal Navy is very proud once again to have a ship bearing the name HMS "Newcastle".
    Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles: On a point of order. The Serjeant at Arms is blushing.

  HOME DEPARTMENT

    Police (Reorganisation)
    Mr. Oakesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will extend the protection offered by rule 23 to police officers of borough forces involved in amalgamation schemes to police officers affected by the amalgamation of the county forces or the division of an existing county force; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister of State (Home Office) (Mr. Mark Carlisle): Yes, Sir. My right hon. Friend has told the police representative organisations and the local authority associations that he intends to extend the protection of regulation 23 to all those affected by the forthcoming reorganisation.
    Mr. Oakes: Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware of the great satisfaction that will give to police officers, who have

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    waited a long time with a great degree of uncertainty about what their future would be as a result of the Government's reorganisation proposals?
    Mr. Carlisle: I am sure the police are glad about the decision that has been taken. There has been no delay about it at all. As the hon. Gentleman knows full well, the Police Federation was not anxious to enter into detailed discussion with the Home Office on the matter until after the Local Government Bill left this House. Immediately after that, the negotiations started and we were able to announce this in the Committee stage in the other place.

    Overseas Citizens (Entry Control)
    Mr. Roseasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he is now taking to control the entry of citizens of States openly harbouring or encouraging acts of terrorism, piracy and murder abroad, and in particular citizens of Syria, Lebanon and Egypt.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Robert Carr): I shall not hesitate to use to the full my powers to keep out or to expel any alien who seems likely to engage in acts of violence or to encourage or incite such acts. It would not be in the public interest to give details of all our precautions. But I can say that immigration officers have been instructed to exercise special vigilance.
    Mr. Rose: Will the right hon. Gentleman go further and make it crystal clear to Governments that harbour air pirates and terrorists and encourage air piracy and terrorism that there will be no alternative in those cases but to impose restrictions such as visas on their nationalis? I know from personal experience that the security now in operation at Heathrow is frighteningly inadequate and needs tightening up.
    Mr. Carr: I would rather not comment specifically now on the first pant of the hon. Gentleman's question but I will certainly look at the second part. I think it is true to say that precautions at Heathrow are receiving far more atten-
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    tion than they used to, and I will see that that improvement continues.
    Mr. Kilfedder: May I ask my right hon. Friend not to overlook that a country much closer to us that the countries mentioned by the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose)—the Republic of Eire—has been harbouring and assisting criminals making constant attacks across the border into Northern Ireland? Will he control the entry of those citizens, who, remarkably, receive far better treatment than the citizens of the oldest members of the Commonwealth?
    Mr. Carr: As I made clear in my answer, my concern is to use my full powers against anybody who seems likely to exercise violence, and that I do. I do not bear any favour or otherwise towards anybody of any nationality.
    Mrs. Shirley Williams: The right hon. Gentleman will recognise that the House has supported him and his predecessor on occasions in the past in permitting legitimate political organisations to establish themselves in this country, but will he confirm that a very close watch is kept on any organisations which might be associated in any way with illegal actions?
    Mr. Carr: Yes, indeed I can. It is difficult, as the hon. Lady knows, to talk about these things in as much detail as one would wish, but I can assure her and the House that we are doing our best to do the job properly and are especially on the alert at present.

    Ugandan Asians (Accommodation)
    Mr. Roseasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many citizens from Uganda have now been accommodated in private homes and how many individuals have offered such accommodation.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Lane): The great majority of the refugees not in resettlement centres have made private arrangements to stay with friends or relatives. The Uganda Resettlement Board had by last weekend received offers of accommodation in 1,476 private households, many of them for short periods only.
    Mr. Rose: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in addition to the valiant efforts he has made there is a great deal of good will on the part of the British people, voluntary organisations and individuals, that can be tapped? Could he not make greater efforts to make people aware of the way in which they can fit into the plans for accommodating the refugees? Is he aware that there is a somewhat uneasy feeling that many of the refugees may have to stay in camps for an unacceptable period?
    Mr. Lane: Yes, Sir, there is the good will to which the hon. Gentleman refers. May I take this opportunity of thanking the very many individuals who have already made offers of private accommodation? I expect to see a steady increase in the number of these offers being taken up from now on. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made clear yesterday, our first objective, and the board's first objective, is to get the refugees out of the resettlement centres into permanent homes and jobs as soon as possible.
    Mr. William Clark: There is great sympathy and concern for the Ugandan Asians, but there is also general unease in the country about the position of other Commonwealth citizens who hold similar passports. What action are the Government taking to ensure that the Uganda episode is not considered a precedent for some similar action?
    Mr. Lane: We are aware of that concern. All I can say now is that there is no prospect whatever of this episode being repeated elsewhere.

    TRADES UNION CONGRESS
    Mr. Rostasked the Prime Minister whether he received an invitation to address last month's annual conference of the Trades Union Congress.
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Prime Minister if he received an official invitation to address the September, 1972, conference of the Trades Union Congress.
    Mr. R. Carr: I have been asked to reply.
    No, Sir.
    Mr. Rost: Is it not a pity that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was not invited to address the TUC conference in order that he could lend support to Mr. Feather and other reasonable trade union leaders who are anxious to co-operate with the Government's initiative to curb inflation because they, like my right hon. Friend, realise that the country will no longer tolerate the sabotaging of the national prosperity by sectional selfish interests?
    Mr. Carr: I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister would have warmly welcomed the opportunity to address the TUC and to explain to it the important opportunities that we have as a result of the economic growth which is now beginning to be achieved.
    Mr. Dalyell: How does the right hon. Gentleman interpret the Prime Minister's remarks at Blackpool last week that the parties must tell each other all the facts? Does this mean that we can expect legislation on the disclosure of business interests, as is wanted by the TUC?
    Mr. Carr: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister pointed out at the Conservative Party conference last week the novel fact about the present tripartite discussions that they are taking place on the basis of a much fuller exchange of basic economic information and forecasts than has ever been the case before.
    Mr. James Hamilton: Will the right hon. Gentleman let the Prime Minister know that many of us are very sorry that he was not invited to address the TUC because this would have afforded the opportunity to him to hear from the trade union leaders that they are not alone responsible for the inflationary tendencies? Will the right hon. Gentleman also tell the Prime Minister that Lord Stokes has made it indelibly clear that he would do this country a great deal of credit if he talked about the misdemeanours of other countries and put our own country into proper perspective?
    Mr. Carr: As I have said, I am sure that my right hon. Friend would have welcomed the opportunity to address the TUC. It is fair to point out that neither he nor any other member of the Government has ever claimed that pay is the only cause of inflation. What cannot be

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    denied, and was never denied by the Labour Government, is that it is the biggest element in maintaining or failing to maintain stable prices. There is also a direct connection between controlling inflation and employment. One of the reasons that we have at last got the very much better unemployment figures this month, with a rising number of vacancies, is that with inflation coming under some control and expansion going forward we now have an opportunity such as we have not had for many years.

    TUC AND CBI (MEETINGS)
    Mr. St. John-Stevasasked the Prime Minister whether he will state the number of official meetings he has had with the Trades Union Congress and the Confederation of British Industry since the end of June.
    Sir Gilbert Longdenasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his latest meeting with the Trades Union Congress.
    Mr. Vaughanasked the Prime Minister whether he will state the number of official meetings he has had separately with the Trades Union Congress and with the Trades Union Congress together with the Confederation of British Industry since the end of June.
    Mr. Redmondasked the Prime Minister if he will state the number of official meetings he has had separately with the Trades Union Congress and with the Trades Union Congress together with the Confederation of British Industry since the end of June.
    Mr. R. Carr: I have been asked to reply.
    My right hon. Friend has held two meetings with representatives of the TUC separately and six meetings in the tripartite series with the CBI and TUC since the end of June. I would refer my hon. Friends to the statement which my right. hon. Friend made on his latest meeting with the TUC and CBI in reply to a Question from the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley) on 17th October.—[Vol. 843, c. 21–5.]
    Mr. St. John-Stevas: Can my right hon. Friend assure us that despite the unhelp-
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    ful reaction of some of the electricity unions and also of some hon. Members on the Opposition side, who apparently gave Mr. Feather a rough ride last night, the Government will press on in the national interest with their policy lot prices and incomes? Can he also tell us something about the machinery that is intended to monitor it?
    Mr. Carr: I will deal with the last point first. There are meetings going on not only between the principals on the announced dates but also between their staffs on these questions, particularly including the machinery which might be devised for monitoring both prices and pay. That is recognised by all as being a very important part of the problem. I assure my hon. Friend that the Government will press on. We believe, as Mr. Feather said of the TUC representatives also, that it is right to make a determined and constructive effort to reach agreement, and I am sure that, from whatever quarter it might come, the public would not take kindly any attempt to get in the way of that agreement.
    Mr. Ashton: Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Prime Minister before the next meeting to work out a simple piece of arithmetic—that £2 less tax is only "30 bob", that many trade unionists have had to pay £1 extra in rent, and that the other "10 bob" is not enough to cover value added tax, increased food prices and all the extra inflation which the Government have caused?
    Mr. Carr: It cannot be denied that pay in the last year, for example, has risen substantially more than prices in almost every sector of the community. As to the arithmetic, I think the hon. Gentleman can be content that the trade union representatives will be doing their arithmetic together with the Government and the CBI. I think the House will be well advised to leave the parties to do the arithmetic until the talks come to a conclusion, and then we must judge the results at that stage.
    Sir Gilbert Longden: Mention has been made of some help for retirement pensioners. While appreciating that they have more to gain than any other section of the community from stable prices, may I ask whether my right hon. Friend is in a position to quantify the benefit contemplated for them?
    Mr. Carr: I am not in a position to quantify the benefit at this moment, but I remind my hon. Friend that, apart from these talks, we have undertaken to make an annual review of pensions. In the context of these talks and the Government's proposals resulting from them, pensioners were specifically mentioned. No one has more to gain from a better control of inflation than the pensioners and all others on small incomes.
    Dr. Summerskill: Have the Government had discussions at Chequers concerning the implementation of the Equal Pay Act in view of the fact that the Act embodies a statutory incomes policy for women? Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that one-third of the labour force consists of women, the majority of them falling into the category of the low paid?
    Mr. Carr: I assure the hon. Lady that the implications of the Equal Pay Act are very much part of the discussions that are going on. Of course, as she will realise, in any policy which is deliberately designed over the next 12 months to help the lower paid, women are an important part of that category.
    Mr. Redmond: Will my right hon. Friend spell out clearly what would be the results of the alternative policy that is sometimes advocated—the restriction of the money supply? What effect would that have on investment and the unemployment figures?
    Mr. Carr: The Government rightly feel that there is no simple answer to these problems. Those who put forward what they regard as simple answers—restriction of money supply is not by any means the only one, because others have been put forward—do not take account of the realities of life or at least of the severe short-term effects of putting such policies into operation.
    Mr. David Stoddart: Will the right hon. Gentleman make clear that he does not concur with the mischievous remarks made by the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) about the electricity supply workers? Will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House that the reason why the electricity workers are contemplating action is that the electricity boards, under instructions from
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    the Prime Minister, as they say, refuse to negotiate on a legitimate claim?
    Mr. Carr: I certainly cannot accept what the hon. Gentleman said in the latter part of that supplementary question or, indeed, that what my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. JohnStevas) said was intended to be mischievous. What I do know is that the unions in the electricity supply industry have agreed to meet again on Friday of next week, which is after the next tripartite meeting. I believe that is the wise course to take. In their action yesterday, the electricity council's management representatives were of course complying with a request by the Government in a communique issued with the general agreement of all parties to the tripartite talks—namely, an appeal to everyone in the public and private sectors to take no action on wages and prices, and to make no offers or settlements, pending the results of the talks, which might prejudice their successful outcome.

    EUROPEAN SUMMIT CONFERENCE
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his official talks with President Pompidou.
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement about the European summit conference.
    Mr. R. Carr: I have been asked to reply.
    My right hon. Friend is at present in Paris at the invitation of President Pompidou in order to attend the European summit conference.
    Mr. Skinner: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Heads of Government are meeting at the old Gestapo headquarters and that, to add insult to injury, they are flying the Union Jack upside down? Will the right hon. Gentleman, wearing his Home Secretary's hat, consider that perhaps a good question which the Prime Minister could put to President Pompidou is why, after all his claptrap about European co-operation, France has not lifted a finger to accommodate a single Ugandan Asian? The old Commonwealth has had to dig the old country out.
    Mr. Carr: I did not know that the hon. Gentleman of all people was so punctilious in his concern for the Union Jack. It is something that we all welcome. I am not, any more than my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, answerable for the actions of another Government, but when one talks about France and coloured immigrants one should remember how many coloured people live in France and go quite freely there. There are not many countries in which there are so many coloured people as in France. That should also be taken into account.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Will my right hon. Friend send a signal to the summit asking the Heads of Government whether they cannot do something about the Eurotechno-bureaucrat Mr. Mansholt, who, not content with interfering in British party politics not so long ago, has been sounding forth about a European Government in controversial federalistic and unacceptable terms?
    Mr. Carr: I note what my hon. Friend says. I am not sure whether the Home Office carries the right signalling equipment.
    Mr. Frank Allaun: Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Prime Minister at these talks firmly to repudiate the proposal by Lord Carrington for a joint military nuclear force with France and Germany, as most of us can imagine nothing more likely to prejudice and kill the prospects of an east/west détente?
    Mr. Carr: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has made his views known on this subject on a good many occasions and I will draw to his attention what the hon. Gentleman has said.
    Sir D. Walker-Smith: Would my right hon. Friend—or, in default, the Prime Minister—give us some information as to the political position and status of members of the European Economic Commission, since we read that Dr. Dahrendorf has recently participated in a conference of Liberal leaders—one would imagine a select and esoteric body?
    Mr. Carr: I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend will have some tolerance with me in my lack of knowledge of these strange goings on.
    Mr. Harold Wilson: Referring back to the demand by my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) for repudiation of the statement by the Secretary of State for Defence, about which I pressed the Prime Minister on Tuesday, is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that we got no clear answer at all from the Prime Minister and that he seemed to suggest that it was a personal view of the Secretary of State for Defence? Will the right hon. Gentleman now say whether the statement of the Secretary of State is the policy of the Government or not?
    Mr. Carr: I am afraid I certainly have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend said.

    QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
    Sir Harmar Nichols: On a point of order. Because of the importance of the machine tool industry and the danger to future investment if trained teams are allowed to disband, could you, Mr. Speaker, use your influence and power to allow the Minister to answer Question 22?
    Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter for the Chair.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Harold Wilson: May I ask the Leader of the House if he will state the business for next week?
The Secretary of State for the Home Department, Lord President of the Council, and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Robert Carr): The business for next week will be as follows:—
MONDAY, 23RD OCTOBER, TUESDAY, 24TH OCTOBER, and WEDNESDAY, 25TH OCTOBER—Consideration of Lords Amendments to the Local Government Bill.
At the end on MONDAY, a Division, it required, on the National Health Service (Family Planning) Amendment Bill.
Mr. Speaker, subject to progress of business, the House will Prorogue on Thursday, 26th October.
As already announced, the new Session will be opened on Tuesday, 31st October.
Mr. Harold Wilson: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied, in view of the very large number of Amendments made in another place to the Local Government Bill, some of which at first sight seem highly reasonable, others extraordinary, that there will be enough time for the House to debate them adequately? I ask because the Bill will have a very profound effect on local government for many years to come.
Secondly, since there has been some expectation, I think on the part of the Government as well as of the Opposition, that we might have further debates in lieu of Supply days owed to us, will the right hon. Gentleman confirm, since we have agreed to the programme for next week because of the Local Government Bill problem, that the Government, in a sense on a gentlemen's agreement basis, owe the Opposition two and a half days' Supply time, and that it will now be taken in the new Session in lieu of days we gave up to help the Government when they were in great difficulties with certain aspects of their business?
Mr. Carr: I can certainly confirm to the right hon. Gentleman that we admit that this is a debt of honour of two and a half days to be carried on to the new Session. We are grateful for the help he gave to help the business of the House, I think that three whole days ought to be adequate for dealing with the Lords Amendments. There are large numbers of them, but, as so often happens in these matters, I think the number of groups is not quite as formidable as the gross number of Amendments may make them appear. I agree that it is heavy business, but I think three whole days will be adequate.
Mr. Harold Wilson: Further to that point. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House how many Amendments there are coming? I hear the number is over 200. Some of them raise very big general principles on local government matters. Others refer to individual localities. It is not a question of grouping them for the convenience of the House. We are not talking about groups; we are talking about human beings here; and it is very important that the House takes the right decisions.
Mr. Carr: I cannot deny the sort of estimate of quantity which the right hon.
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Gentleman has given. It is, I am afraid, measured in hundreds. When he talks about groupings I certainly did not mean groupings in that sense. What I mean is that with most of the major Amendments there is, in many cases, a large number of consequential Amendments. This is what produces the very large number of Amendments. I mean grouping only in that sense. There is certainly a fair number of very important debates which the House will have to have. We do, however, believe that three full days should provide adequate time.
Sir Robin Turton: As the programme which my right hon. Friend has announced does not provide any opportunity for discussing the changes in procedure recommended by the Select Committee on Procedure and Joint Select Committee on Delegated Legislation nor, indeed, the even more urgent matter of the parliamentary consequences of entry into the European Communities, will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that very early in the new Session the House will be able to debate these very important matters?
Mr. Carr: I am aware that this is outstanding business. There are a number of matters on which the Government have told the House their reactions to the Procedure Committee's recommendations. There is a number of other matters on which the Government have first got to express their view. When we have done so, certainly there would be need for debate.
Mr. Dalyell: May I raise a matter of principle with, I think, important consequences for Members on both sides? Is the Leader of the House aware that the Docksey Committee's Report, which deals with the future of the National Research Development Corporation, a Government Report, has been made available, rightly or wrongly, to Members of the House of Commons Select Committee on Science and Technology, but has been denied to the rest of us? It seems that there is, perhaps, an issue here as to whether some Members ought to get a report which is denied to others, and an issue whether there are perhaps first-class and second-class Members of the House.
Mr. Carr: These matters are difficult, My recollection of my own past experience as a Member of Select Committees is that on many occasions a Member, as a Member of a Select Committee, gets information in advance of the whole House. In due course the Select Committee reports. There is no promise or undertaking to publish this report in the first place. I think it is reasonable that the Select Committee should have a chance to look at it. When it has reported we will consider the matter.
Rev. Ian Paisley: Could the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to tell the House when the committee to deal with legislation in regard to Northern Ireland will be set up? Is he aware that very important drafts of Orders will be before the House this evening and that those drafts amend many Acts of the Northern Ireland Parliament and completely do away with many other Acts? Does he not think, when we have come back at the end of this Session that time should have been given next week to discuss the very serious position which is now arising in Northern Ireland where we have cases of terrible intimidation on both sides of the religious fence, where Protestants are being burned out of their homes and where Roman Catholics are being burned out of their homes? Is he aware that in my own constituency there have been words and threats by the hon. Lady the Member for Mid-Ulster (Miss Devlin), who is, unfortunately, not in the House, and who said they will burn the hay sheds and poison cattle? Is my right hon. Friend aware that this has now taken place in my own constituency, five hay sheds burned and some heads of cattle poisoned in the last few weeks?
Mr. Carr: On the first point, I would certainly hope that the Government will come forward early in the new Session with their proposals for the Northern Ireland Committee to deal with legislation such as I mentioned back in the summer and which we certainly regard as an important matter. I of course do see the hon. Gentleman's point, that with such serious events as are now going on in Northern Ireland there is a very natural and almost continuous desire for debates. It is difficult to find sufficient time for them. There has been a full exchange of views in response to the statement by my right hon. Friend this week. Imme-
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diately we come back for the new Session we will launch forth into several days' debate on the Queen's Speech, and that is the traditional opportunity for raising all sorts of matters of first importance.
Mr. C. Pannell: Can I bring the Leader of the House back to the Local Government Bill and the fact that we have got three days to consider the Lords Amendments? We all know that in theory the Government will listen to the arguments, but they must by this time, in view of the legislative programme, have made up their mind about them, and I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman can give us prior indication of the number of those Amendments the Government propose to accept.
Mr. Carr: I think we had better let another place finish its consideration before we do crystal gazing of that kind.
Dame Irene Ward: Is my right hon. Friend aware that an urgent debate is necessary on the future of shipbuilding and shipping in general? Will he bear in mind that I am not at all happy about the delays which have occurred as a result of the arguments which appear to have been taking place within the Government? Is he further aware that Swan Hunter has just lost an order amounting to £20 million, which is a large sum of money? I want to be able to get at the Government so that I may know what they are up to.
Mr. Carr: My hon. Friend is always wanting to get at the Government, indeed at all Governments. Obviously there is no chance of a debate on this topic next week, but I will convey my hon. Friend's wishes to my right hon. Friends. I hope she will not forget that some of the policies pursued by the Government in the last six months are giving considerable help to the shipbuilding industry.
Mr. Michael Foot: Returning to the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell), will the right hon. Gentleman have in mind that some of us feel a new principle may be involved in regard to the circulation of documents to a Select Committee? We appreciate that confidential documents are in a different category, but this matter relates to a Government report, the circulation of which is another matter. This raises the

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whole question of the rights of Members of a Select Committee as compared with the rights of other Members of the House. Will he undertake to make a statement to the House on this matter early next week?
Mr. Carr: I will certainly look into the matter seriously. I did not mean in any way to brush aside what could be an important matter. I will not commit myself to the time at which I might make a statement, but will look carefully at the question.
Sir Harry Legge-Bourke: Is my right hon. Friend aware that what has been circulated to the Select Committee on Science and Technology is not a totally unexpurgated edition of the report concerned? On the question of Select Committee reports in general, I should like to support in every way the plea made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Sir Robin Turton) about the backlog of Select Committee reports and the Government White Papers on them, which are overdue. This is beginning to put in jeopardy the whole system of Select Committees. Will he give an assurance that in the coming Session the Government will make a major effort to keep up to date with these matters?
Mr. Carr: I take serious note of what my hon. Friend said, and I will convey his remarks to those of my colleagues who are involved. As for the Select Committee on Science and Technology, I am aware of the desire for a debate and that we should try to produce replies to the four reports before that debate takes place. I shall seek to urge that along.
Mr. Faulds: In view of the moral victory last night by hon. Members on both sides of the House opposed to the Museums and Galleries Admission Charges Bill and the size of the Government's derisory numerical majority, will the right hon. Gentleman approach the Prime Minister on his return from Paris to ask him to drop this dreary Measure, and indeed to drop the Minister concerned as well?
Mr. Carr: I cannot give the hon. Gentleman that pleasure.
Mr. Hugh Fraser: In view of changing economic circumstances and the fact
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that the subject of VAT has never been fully debated on the Floor of the House, and also bearing in mind the rising problems of industrialists who have had no clear guidance on the matter, does my right hon. Friend not think that we should now have a full day's debate on this tax?
Mr. Carr: Obviously there is not time for such a debate next week, and at the moment I cannot make any commitment about the new Session; but I will think about the matter.
Mr. Roy Jenkins: What plans have the Government for an early debate on the Uganda Asians?
Mr. Carr: I am afraid I have to say to the right hon. Gentleman—not next week. We are soon to begin a new Session and must see how we go. I personally believe that it would be a good thing to debate the matter, if we can find time.
Mr. Fell: My right hon. Friend was kind enough to send me advance information in a letter that he had decided to give time to the further consideration of the National Health Service (Family Planning) Amendment Bill. Where do back benchers stand in this matter? [Interruption.] This is a matter of the greatest seriousness if the interests of back benchers on all sides of the House are to be safeguarded. The fact is that, despite the earlier proceedings on this topic and the fact that the matter went to the Committee on Procedure—whose report has not had a chance to be discussed—the matter has been left in the situation that the Government will do what they think fit— [Interruption.] What happened on that Friday back in the summer was completely within the rules of order. What assurance can we be given that in future the Government will not decide to take retrospective action to allow decisions of the House taken many months ago to be reversed by leave of the Government?
Mr. Carr: First of all I accept my responsibility as Leader of the House, above all to take account of the interests of back benchers, but I do my best to listen to views. I was left in no doubt by a large number of hon. Members, not by any means all those who were fervent supporters of the Bill, that it was

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felt that a procedural quirk had prevented a final decision on the Bill. We referred the matter to the Committee on Procedure—which is a committee of the House, not a Government body—and having considered that report and all the representations which I received from large numbers of back benchers, I decided that it was right to adopt the suggestion of that Committee.
Mr. Speaker: May I ask for the help of the House? We have an important debate before us and I have the names of 40 hon. Members who want to take part in it. May we conclude this part of our proceedings as quickly as possible?
Mr. Stratton Mills: In the blackest week yet in Northern Ireland, could my right hon. Friend give an assurance that at least one day of the debates on the Queen's Speech will be specially earmarked for Northern Ireland? Since it is clear—I say this without recriminations—that direct rule has failed, will he assure us that the debate is wide enough to take in a major reassessment of policy to prevent other problems?
Mr. Carr: My hon. Friend will not expect me to agree with the concluding part of his remarks. On the first part, I will carefully consider the possibility of allocating one day of the debate on the Address to Northern Ireland.
Mr. Lawson: Reverting to the question of giving prior information to Select Committees, may I ask the Minister to bear in mind that many Members on both sides of the House might regard it as a good thing that Select Committees engaged in examining matters should have access to information and reports before they have been published. Certainly the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs would have gained great advantage if it had had access to the report on afforestation. Therefore, will he not become too intimidated by the kind of remarks we heard a little earlier?
Mr. Carr: An issue has been raised which needs further thought, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that I shall not be intimidated by either side.

ICELAND (FISHING DISPUTE)
The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Anthony Royle): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I should like to make a statement about the very regrettable and serious deterioration in the situation concerning our fishing vessels operating in the waters around Iceland.
As a result of discussions held between my right honourable Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary and the Icelandic Foreign Minister in New York on 28th September, we have been able to clarify the positions of the two sides on a possible interim arrangement. There is indeed a wide gap between us but we feel on the British side that it is still worth while holding further discussions in an attempt to bridge the gap. We informed the Icelandic Government accordingly on 11th October.
On 16th October, before any reply had been received, Icelandic gunboats embarked on a course of systematic interference with British vessels. In one case they have fired warning shots and in one case a gunboat attempting to cut the trawl wires of a British vessel collided with it, tearing a hole in the side of the trawler and endangering the lives of the crew. We shall be claiming compensation.
I summoned the Icelandic Ambassador yesterday and formally protested at the Icelandic Government's action. expressed to him the Government's sense of outrage, and that of parliamentary and public opinion, at this resumption of Icelandic harassment. I made it clear that we reserve the right in the event of further interference to take without further notice such measures as we may consider appropriate to protect our vessels. Her Majesty's Ambassador in Reykjavik has spoken in similar terms to the Icelandic Foreign Minister.
We believe that it is in the interest of both Governments that discussions should continue and we have had the full support throughout of the trawler owners, skippers and crews in this. But I must make it plain that British vessels must be free from harassment.

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I would emphasise that throughout this unhappy dispute we have for our part acted entirely in accordance with international law and we shall continue to do so.
In August we obtained an interim order from the International Court. Pending the final determination of the proceedings, we are required to observe certain restrictions on our catch in the waters in dispute. The Government of Iceland are required to refrain from enforcing their regulations against British vessels and from interfering or threatening to interfere with them. The same order calls upon both Governments to avoid action capable of aggravating or extending the dispute. British vessels are fishing around Iceland in accordance with that order and the Government will continue to maintain their right so to do.
The British Government and the British industry have behaved with great restraint during this dispute. That restraint is still being exercised. There is, I believe, still the opportunity for an early and amicable negotiated arrangement which will be satisfactory to both parties, pending a definitive settlement. I must warn the Icelandic Government that we expect them to show the same restraint.
Mr. Crosland: I welcome this statement, and endorse both tone and the content. I say only this about the incident between the "Aegir" and the "Aldershot", the only miracle is that it did not happen weeks ago. The trouble is that next time it happens a number of lives will certainly be lost.
I have three questions to ask the Minister. First, will he make it absolutely clear that these incidents are the direct result of instructions given by the Icelandic Government to their gunboats to harass British trawler men who are fishing in their traditional grounds—grounds which form part of the international high seas—and who are authorised to do so, as the Under-Secretary of State said, by the decision of the International Court of Justice at the Hague.
Secondly, will the hon. Gentleman make it unequivocably clear that if this policy of harassment continues it will be an irreparable blow to any prospects of a negotiated settlement and will cer-
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tainly be followed by full British naval protection; and will he make it clear that such protection will be both determined and effective?
Lastly, however, may I make it clear that no one on this side of the House, any more than anyone inside the Government, wants a confrontation? On the contrary, we all want the dispute to be settled by agreement and not by force.
I end simply by saying that feeling in the fishing ports and amongst trawler-men at the moment is at boiling point. We are on the brink of a confrontation of force, in which lives will certainly be lost, of a kind which should never occur between two civilised nations in this year of grace of 1972. The Government have rightly shown that they are determined to do all they can to withdraw from the brink. It is now up to the Icelandic Government to show that they want to do the same.
Mr. Royle: I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) for the remarks he has made in support of the Government's policy. On his first point about harassment taking place as a result of the instructions by the Icelandic Government, I made this very clear to the Icelandic Ambassador when he came to see me yesterday.
As to protection, I must tell the House that naval forces are close at hand. I am sure that the House will accept that operational instructions must be kept confidential. They are, of course, under constant review. We are prepared to order the Royal Navy to go to the aid of our trawlers if necessary. The Government and industry hope that while there are prospects for further negotiations—and this is, I think, in answer to the right hon. Gentleman's third point—it will not be necessary to use this force in defence of our shipping, and again I call on the Icelandic Government to match our restraint and sanity.
Mr. James Johnson: The whole House and the people in the fishing ports will be glad to hear the Minister's sterling words. Is he aware that earlier on in Question Time we were delighted by the equally formidable statement made by his right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence on behalf of our naval protection vessels.

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As to the Icelandic action, is the Under-Secretary aware that the leaders of this industry on the Humberside are at boiling point and are using such words as "political inflammability" about such action by the Icelandic people, since we consider all waters between 12 and 50 miles of the coastline as international high seas; and this has been confirmed by 14 judges at the Hague? We are delighted to hear his firm guarantee today that if our men in the fishing fleet do get into difficulties our naval forces, which are in close proximity, will go to their aid.
Mr. Royle: I think that I have made the Government's attitude on this quite clear. In fact, since 1st September we have provided two civilian support vessels continuously on station. The details are obviously a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, but the support vessel "Othello" was on hand to help in the most recent incidents.
Mr. Wall: I also welcome the strength of my hon. Friend's statement. Is he aware that many people believe that the escalation of these incidents is due to Communist pressure designed to get Iceland out of NATO and that therefore any settlement would be very advantageous not only to Britain and Iceland but to the West as a whole? Will my hon. Friend confirm the Icelandic Prime Minister's statement which seemed to promise a de-escalation of incidents? Will he confirm that the Government are co-ordinating action with West Germany?
Mr. Royle: We are co-ordinating action with the West German Government and are in close touch with them. I welcome what the Prime Minister of Iceland said yesterday in the debate in the Althing, that he wished to continue negotations as long as there is the chance of an honourable settlement. The whole House, will I am sure, welcome that statement. There is no link between the fisheries dispute with Britain and Icelandic membership of NATO. The fact that we are allies as well as friends makes it all the more important that we should settle our differences amicably. In our handling of the issue we do have in mind the defence implications.
Mr. Robert Hughes: Bearing in mind that we still have the winter weather to
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come and that the subject of prime importance must be the safety of the crews and fishing vessels in Icelandic waters, will the Minister give an assurance that he will discourage any tendency, despite any difficulties involved, for vessels to keep radio silence while working within the 50 mile limit?
Mr. Royle: We are in close touch with the industry on all these matters. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries is in close touch with trawler owners, skippers and crews, and there will be close consultation with them on all these matters during the winter months.
Mr. McNamara: Whilst we agree with the policy adopted by the Government in this dispute, particularly after the recent escalation, is it not now even more urgent that we should have negotiations at ministerial level on this subject and that this should be made our prime objective? When can we hope for a statement on this in the near future, and what statement will be made by the Government's representatives when they meet the action committee tomorrow?
Mr. Royle: There have already been ministerial negotiations earlier in the year. I am sure that the House will understand that the position of the negotiations at the present time must be kept confidential, but all our actions regarding contacts with the Icelandic side will be carried out in close consultation with, and with the agreement of, the industry. This is fundamental to the policies we are pursuing, and we must keep them in accord with the interim order of the International Court. I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman at this moment when the ministerial discussions will start again, but we are anxious that they should start as soon as possible.

NORTHERN IRELAND
Rev. Ian Paisley: I beg to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 to discuss a specific and important matter which demands urgent consideration, namely,
the troubles in Northern Ireland and the need for immediate steps to protect the civilian population.
This House, by its own vote, decided to take into its hands the Government of

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Northern Ireland. At the present time there has arisen a very serious and almost terrifying situation in regard to the security of the civilian population. I have already referred to this during business questions. The people of Northern Ireland will deplore the fact that at the end of this Session no arrangement has been made or no firm promise has been given that a day of the debate on the Queen's Speech will be devoted to this subject. Such a promise has not been forthcoming from the Government.
I say on behalf of the people I represent and, I believe, on behalf of the vast majority of citizens of Northern Ireland, that they feel that this House does not realise, or at least the Government do not realise, the seriousness of the situation and the imperative necessity for the Government to take the initiative at this time.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) was courteous enough to give notice that he might seek to make this application today. He has made the application in the terms he has stated. I have considered the matter, and also the exchange during Business Questions, and I have also taken into account other factors, such as the other business before the House. I am afraid that I cannot grant the hon. Members' application.

THALIDOMIDE CHILDREN (EARLY DAY MOTION)
Mr. Ashley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday I sought to table an Early Day Motion on thalidomide children. You refused to allow that Motion, which was tabled in my name and in the names of Members of all major parties. While I respect your ruling, I respectfully ask you to reconsider it.
I am unable to detail the Motion to the House but I can say that it criticised the settlement proposed by the Distillers (Biochemical) Company to the children, and it also called for moral justice to be done. Already the Sunday Times has publicly condemned that proposed settelement in extremely strong language. It described
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it as being grotesquely out of proportion to the injuries suffered by the children.
The Attorney-General has written to the Editor of the Sunday Times to say that no action will be taken by the Attorney-General which indicates that the statement in the Sunday Times does not constitute a contempt of court.
Firstly, I submit that if the Sunday Times can make a statement of that kind, Members of the House should be able to make a statement which is at least less strong than that made by the Sunday Times, because we, too, think the proposed settlement inadequate. The, language used by the Sunday Times was stronger than that in my Motion, and I believe that if the elected Members of this Assembly are denied the right of expressing their views about something which has already been commented on in the Press, it will be a parody of democracy.
Second, in so far as the Motion sought moral justice for these children it was not asking for legal justice. Moral justice is not a question of law and, therefore, cannot be subjudice. I therefore submit that you should reconsider your decision, moral justice being a subjective concept beyond the jurisdiction of the most knowledgeable lawyer.
In conclusion, in view of the Resolution approved by the House on 28th June that reference may be made in Motions to matters awaiting adjudication in all civil courts, in so far as they relate to the essentials of life, I submit that for children without arms, some without legs, some without both, some with other appalling deformities, adequate compensation is an essential of life.
I hope, Mr. Speaker, that with your discretion, you will see fit to reconsider your decision and allow the House to condemn the contemptible offer by Distillers (Biochemical) Company.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member was good enough to tell me that he intended to raise this matter. It was a decision of the Table with regard to his Motion.
I am conscious of the importance the hon. Gentleman attaches to it and of the issues involved. I will consider the hon. Gentleman's submission and rule upon it tomorrow.

PROCEEDINGS OF THE HOUSE (BROADCASTING)
Mr. Speaker: Before I call on the hon. Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Batsford) to move his Motion, I have three things to say. First, I am not selecting any of the Amendments. Secondly, I have a list of 40 speakers, so I hope that there will be rigid self discipline in regard to length of speeches, and that conciseness will be the order of the day. Thirdly, I understand that there is to be a free vote on the subject—it is not a party affair.
I will therefore call hon. Members in such order as to make a debate, which means that two hon. Members on the same side may be called one after the other, but at the end of the day I will see that an overall balance is kept between the two sides, not only of the argument but also of the House. I shall do so without the aid of a computer, so I hope that the House will be tolerant.
4.6 p.m.
Mr. Brian Botsford: I beg to move,
That this House recommends that there should be an experiment in the public broadcasting of its proceedings by sound and television.
It is a great privilege for me to open the debate. I say straight away that I am not an authority on radio or television and that my only real qualification for moving the Motion is that I served on successive Select Committees appointed to consider this problem. That is a record which is shared by the hon. Member for Barking (Mr. Driberg) who was with me for many years on those committees and was, indeed, the Chairman at one time.
I do not believe that any useful purpose will be served this afternoon by going into the history of this affair or referring to all the debates we have had on this subject. However, it is necessary to recite a little history. Many hon. Members will remember the occasion in November, 1966, when we had a debate on a Motion moved by the right hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman), then the Leader of the House, to approve a closed-circuit experiment on television. The Motion was defeated by one vote.
Since that date six years ago there have been no more reports on this subject
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from Select Committees, apart from two from joint committees about the legal aspect of the affair. I shall not refer to those.
An experiment on televisison took place in another place in February, 1968, the result of which was inconclusive. An experiment in sound broadcasting took place in this House, also in closed circuit, a few months later, but that was not followed up by the Services Committee. Since then there have been two debates on Private Members' Motions. One was frustrated by the quorum and another by the clock. There have been a number of Early Day Motions.
There is one main difference between the Motion which was before the House in November, 1966, and that which is before it today. In 1966 we asked for a closed-circuit experiment. Today we ask the House to recommend a public experiment. This is because we believe that the public and the Press should have an opportunity to express their opinions on this matter.
On 16th March, 1959, an Early Day Motion was placed on the Order Paper deploring the televising of our proceedings. That Motion was in my name. I hope to show today how I have changed my mind on this subject in the intervening years.
The subject falls into two distinct parts. I propose first to deal with the question of principle as to why or whether to allow our proceedings to be broadcast and, second, to mention some of the technical aspects. The question of principle must come before the question of technical feasibility.
When the Select Committee first considered this problem in 1964–65 there were under 13 million licensed television sets. Today the latest figure is almost 17 million. I suppose I should emphasise that the operative word is "licensed".
Most hon. Members will agree that during the last 10 or 15 years television has become the most powerful, the most important, and therefore the most influential, means of communication in modern society. For better or for worse, television sets virtually monopolise the leisure time in many homes. Whether we like it or not, the box provides a large part of our entertainment and our education.

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I therefore believe that it is wrong that the political discussion and debate which takes place on television programmes—there is plenty of it—should be conducted not here in the Chamber between Government and Opposition or between back bench and Front Bench, but in a different and entirely unnatural environment—in a television studio, where those who are invited to take part are selected, not by you, Mr. Speaker, but by the broadcasting authorities. We know what difficulties they have in making those selections.
Nobody has put this better than one of the principal interviewers himself, Mr. Robin Day. In giving evidence before the Committee on 8th February, 1966, he gave as one of his basic arguments in favour of televising our proceedings—I quote from page 62:
"to enable the public to see what I would describe as an authentic political debate on their television screens, instead of substitutes devised and cast by television producers."
It is also wrong if the opportunity for making use of this vast means of communication, which is what television is, is denied to the one place above all others where it is necessary to have communication and understanding between the people we represent and where politics are real and to be seen at first hand.
As Mr. Aneurin Bevan said in November, 1959, when advocating the introduction of television:
"Would it not be an excellent thing if, instead of speeches being made in comparative obscurity and, in fact, never heard at all except by the few Members who assemble here to hear them, they were heard by their constituents? … All I am suggesting is that in these days when all the apparatus of mass suggestion are against democratic education, we should seriously consider re-establishing intelligent communication between the House of Commons and the electorate as a whole."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd November, 1959; Vol. 612, c 866–67.]
Right hon. and hon. Members will agree that during the last 10 or 20 years, when the television has made this big impact, people have become more and more critical of Parliament and of politicians. We are witnessing today a mounting lack of respect for authority in many walks of life, and Parliament is no exception. Ignorance of our procedure, of what we are trying to do here, and of our work in general, will create a
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lack of respect for politics and politicians. Where there is lack of interest and respect, there will be lack of ambition and people will not be driven to the same extent by ambition to come here. There will be less competition for what we have always rightly considered to be the privilege of membership of the House.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: My hon. Friend has spoken of television being accepted in other fields. Does he believe that in those other fields outside Parliament the entrance of television has confirmed the truth or distorted it?
Mr. Batsford: I can speak from experience of only one or two spheres—for example, publishing. Television has had nothing but a good influence on the publishing world. It has aroused a tremendous amount of interest in the educational side of publishing.
Television is a means of restoring the people's interest in Parliament. It is a means of enabling hon. Members to speak to a much wider audience. Above all, it will create interest in the work of this House. I do not mean by that only this Chamber, because it is essential that anything broadcast by sound or on television must include proceedings not only in this Chamber but also in the Scottish Grand Committee, the Welsh Grand Committee, and many other Committees. The introduction of the cameras will bridge the gulf which has widened so much between Parliament and the people. I hope also that amongst the younger generation there will be hundreds of thousands who, through watching us on television, will be able to acquire some of the atmosphere and the quality which we all respect in this place and which we want to share with those outside. Those are some of the reasons for the Motion.
One principal argument against bringing television cameras into the House has always been that they will change the character of the House. I do not know, Mr. Speaker, whether it is in order to quote something that you said in a debate on this subject some years ago:
"… I think that the House of Commons is the best instrument yet fashioned for democratic parliamentary government and we must be careful not to change it character."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th May, 1965; Vol. 713, c. 1066.]
Nobody would disagree with that.

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We are now watched by a Strangers' Gallery and by the Press Gallery. We never acknowledge their existence. We "spy" them only if we want to get rid of them. We do not even refer to those who sit there, but they are watching the House at work. Every day, in spite of the weather, there are thousands of people outside waiting to do exactly the same. The introduction of television would surely basically mean that thousands of others would be able to do just that—[Interruption.] I see that the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) is employing a visual aid; he is holding up a placard saying, "Not true" and by so doing is anticipating a more technical point to which I shall be coming.
If I may interrupt the hon. Member, it is true that on one evening alone more people could watch the proceedings in this House than all of those who have ever been admitted to the Strangers' Gallery in all the centuries it has been open. I have always thought that one of the most successful types of programme is that in which the cameras or microphones eavesdrop on the people taking part so that they do not know they are there. Because of that they are more natural. It is important to realise that after a time hon. Members would appreciate that television was there and would be no more aware of it than we are now of the Strangers' Gallery, provided—this is important—there is no obstrusive physical interference by cameras and equipment into the House.
That brings me to the more technical aspects of the question.
Mr. Raphael Tuck: Is the hon. Gentleman envisaging a continuous broadcasting of all proceedings in Parliament from beginning to end, or does he, like his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science, favour selection by TV companies?
Mr. Batsford: I am coming to the alternative sort of programmes in a moment. On the technical side, I have no doubt that many hon. and right hon. Members will remember that in November, 1966, when we came into this Chamber for the opening of Parliament, we found it ablaze with lights and exceedingly uncomfortable on account of the extra heat. Cameras were much in evidence. There was one here behind the
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curtain and another over there. We learned subsequently that this was due to an unauthorised film in colour which required far more light for the cameras. As a result there were shown in the weekly Press a lot of rather bad colour photographs, with all the benches rather blue and the carpet between us a pale mauve.
Many hon. Members felt with justification that this was an unwarranted intrusion into our affairs. I say at once that if televising the House meant a lot of camera and equipment and a lot more light, then we might well be apprehensive and not agree to this Motion.
I have been assured by the BBC—and we have all had information from the IBA, too—that the equipment is much more modest and is presumably becoming much more so. There is a big difference between the type of installation we would want for an experimental installation and that which would be required or visible for permanent televising. What would be required for a permanent installation would be almost invisible under the panelling. The BBC has said that for the experiment what it would require are two remotely controlled cameras slung beneath the galleries behind your Chair, Mr. Speaker; it would want two manually controlled cameras un in the Galleries, and it would also want one manually controlled camera in the bench we normally refer to as "below the Gallery". There would be no cameras and no equipment on the Floor of the House.
As for lighting, it reckons that only a little extra lighting will be required and could come through the clerestory windows on each side. It is true to say that the Plumbicon miniature cameras we were promised as long ago as 1966 have not yet materialised, but as technical progress continues there need be little inconvenience to Members and there must be plenty of space behind the panelling here. Perhaps there are some chimneys above those great fireplaces in the Lobbies.
Mrs. Lena Jeger: On this question of cameras, is the hon. Gentleman envisaging that Press photographers would also be allowed into the Chamber and, if not, what would be the logic of exclusion?
Mr. Batsford: My association with Press photographers tells me that their photographs are normally accompanied by a flash which I do not think would be very good in this building. I see no reason why the Press should not have access to stills or to the video tape of our proceedings, which is more or less the same thing. We must now consider what is the most important part of the question, and that is how and in what form—
Mr. James Welibeloved: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves the technical argument, is he telling the House that it is the professional opinion of the BBC that the additional lights required for televising in the Chamber would not seriously affect the temperature, the atmosphere, or produce glare and that we would not need to make any alteration to our present air-conditioning system because of the temperature increase?
Mr. Batsford: The hon. Member is quite right; that is what the BBC does say. That is also the point of the experiment—to find out what the conditions are like.
We have now to consider in what form the programme should reach the viewer. The Select Committee of 1966 reached certain definite conclusions on this point. I am speaking personally now and not for Members of the Committee, but I see no reason to depart from those recommendations six years later. They can be summarised as follows. We totally rejected the continuous live broadcasts of our proceedings, either in sound or on television. We thought that would be entirely undesirable and impractical and that a lot of people would think that it was deadly boring. Nevertheless, we thought that on certain occasions, such as Budget Day, for example, there could be a continuous live broadcast. For all normal occasions—and this is the most important part of our argument—we recommended that there should be a feed—a technical term for piped or video tape. This would be a straight uncut picture on video tape made available to the BBC, the IBA, and any other interested organisations. This service of the supply of a continuous feed would be in the hands of a special House of
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Commons broadcasting unit, not necessarily based on Members but based on broadcasting experts. I noticed this morning that the Fabian Society has come to the same conclusion.
Mr. J. T. Price: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves that point, is he aware that he seems to be in conflict with his own argument? He points out that the Committee which reported in 1966 entirely dismissed the idea of a continuous broadcast of our performances, such as they are in this place, yet at the same time he suggests that we should have a continuous video tape running, if necessary, for a 24-hour session. Thus Members would still be subjected throughout the proceedings to all the inconvenience referred to, in a technical sense, to produce a tape which may be edited into small sections at very great expense. How does he reconcile those two points of view?
Mr. Batsford: I do so in this way. We have rejected continuous live broadcasts of sound or television, which is one thing, but we are recommending that the continuous video tape should be made of our proceedings and fed out to the various organisations such as the IBA, the BBC and anyone else interested.
Mr. Andrew Faulds: Will the hon. Gentleman explain one point? When he is talking of this continuous video tape, does he visualise that each of the five separate cameras will have its video tape or that there will be shots selected by the camera man or the remote control men and fed into one single video tape which can be edited and used?
Mr. Batsford: The hon. Member knows more about this than I do. I was coming to that point. This parliamentary control unit would control the programme tape and the programme would be produced, as it is now, by a TV producer. The hon. Gentleman knows that the picture from these five cameras would be in the control room and that the producer would select which picture would go out to make a continuous programme—
Mr. Faulds: Ah!
Mr. Batsford: —and therefore this unit would not be five cameras but one.
Mr. Philip Whitehead: Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that this process of selection is not as sinister as my hon. Friends suggest in that those five cameras are not offering five separate pictures, all of which could be transmitted? Some are changing focus, some changing shot, while one would be giving the clean feed picture which the director would put on the video tape.
Mr. Botsford: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right and I am grateful to him. It is what happens after this which worries a lot of hon. Members—that is, the further editing—[Interruption.]—and the way in which the final tape is edited.
Mr. Speaker: Order. There is a free vote and the rules of order may be freely interpreted but not too freely.
Mr. Batsford: I come to the way in which this is edited before it is broadcast. This is the crucial point. I believe that the final editing of this broadcast feed must be left to the broadcasting organisations and that we should not attempt to impose any restrictions on what they select, any more than we impose any restrictions on what the Press select and print. We impose no restrictions whatever on the way in which HANSARD is published. The initial video tape feed is producing selected, edited material by the House of Commons unit and any subsequent cutting or editing must be done by the broadcasting organisation.
One other point which worries hon. Members is that the requirements of radio and television will alter our procedures for the timing of debates. This might happen if we were to have long, exclusive and continuous broadcasting on one channel as is done in Australia. I do not believe that an edited version or recorded extracts will restrict or alter our procedure in any way.
This Motion recommends a public experiment. There is one special reason why I want to emphasise the word "public". Hon. Members may remember that when the closed-circuit sound experiment was made in 1968, it began on 23rd April, with the opening speeches in the Second Reading debate on the Race Relations Bill. The right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), who was then the Home Secretary, was
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followed by the then right hon. and learned Member for Marylebone, now my noble Friend, the Lord Chancellor. A few members, I cannot remember how many, of the Select Committee were in the control room at Broadcasting House at that time.
We heard their speeches going out from this Chamber for the first time in history. I am sure that the other Members present with me felt that it was an impressive and significant experience. Ever since then I have thought what a pity it was that those voices were not going out to a greater audience. I have always felt that the time must come when the speeches we make here are heard by a larger audience, by people in their own homes.
4.35 p.m.
Mr. Charles Pannell: I am sure that all those of us who are opposed to the proposed experiment will thank the hon. Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Batsford) for his speech. We are asked to indulge in an experiment. No figure has been given as to how much it will cost. We have heard no details about it. I read an article only the other day in The Times written by Mr. David Wood, in which he attempted to forecast the answer to the unanswered questions which Ramsay Macdonald used to call "The consequences of the consequences".
I agree with the hon. Member for Ealing, South—and I hope that we all agree with him—that the principle is far more important than the technical feasibility. I hope that I shall not be called elitist, in spite of my European connection, but I profoundly believe that while this Parliament belongs to the nation, the ethos of this place belongs to the Members. How we behave, how we conduct this place, with Mr. Speaker in the Chair, maintaining the tone of the debate—these are the things which really count here. We do not allow Her Majesty to come between this House and its voice, and no one else should come between Mr. Speaker and the conduct of this House. This may sound rather high falutin, but I am old enough to remember that, wherever democratic forms are degraded, wherever assemblies are sold short, that is the place of the dictator.
Mr. Russell Kerr: What about 28th October last?
Mr. Pannell: That sounds all right, but I tell my hon. Friend that on 28th October I went into the Lobby with a great sense of responsibility. I do not grant my hon. Friend a lesser sense of responsibility because he disagreed with me. I paid far more for my vote than he has had to pay for his. I do not want friends to criticise me on this occasion. We may as well keep Europe where it is and come back to the House of Commons.
The hon. Member for Ealing, South suggested that one of the debates which might be televised in full was the Budget debate. I should have thought that that was the worst example to give. I never invite friends in when I get tickets for Budget Day.
We are entitled to ask "What do we want at the end of this? What benefits would this confer either on the nation or on this place?" It was suggested in the Evening Standard last night that there were two places where cameras should not intrude. One was a court of law and the other was the House of Commons. If we have cameras in the House of Commons why not in a court of law? Why not televise the marvellous drama of a murder trial? Why not allow the cameras to linger on the judge's face? Is it not a pity that he no longer dons the black cap? That would be a real drama. It is worth remembering, even though it is often cited in aid, that in the home of television, the sessional committees in the United States, neither the Senate nor Congress in full session has been televised. I hope that we shall show a similar sense of seemliness.
Mr. John Gorst: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Pannell: No, I do not want to give way. The speech of the hon. Member for Ealing, South suffered from too many interruptions. I recognise the peculiar interest of the hon. Member for Hendon. North (Mr. Gorst).
I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) is not here. He made a speech about six years ago and he repeated most of it in The Times yesterday. But he has adduced no new arguments. He always harps on the theme that this place has fallen from a previous high level. As a
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student of Parliament, I have challenged that belief before. What is the point in history from which we have fallen? Where is the peak? In yesterday's article he refers to the decline in Parliament in the last six years. That is since his Motion was defeated by one vote. On that occasion he proceeded buoyantly on his way in the sure and certain knowledge as he thought, that many people would range themselves behind him. In dialectics he is a master of the place, and I have a great deal of admiration for him. If the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East could not carry the House, I am sure that the speech today of the hon. Member for Ealing, South will not do so.
What is the high point from which we have declined? Is it the 1880s? Is it the 1930s? Is it the 1920s? It has been said generally that the worst parliaments of this century or since the Reform Bill have been the Parliaments of 1918 and 1931, with their mammoth majority. Historians agree on that. There is not a major literary figure who has ever written about this place—Pepys, Dickens, Hazlitt, Lamb, Carlyle. George Bernard Shaw—who has not always referred to it with the utmost contempt.
Mr. Norman St. John-Stevas: Bagehot.
Mr. Pannell: I shall not mention him because the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) is yearning to catch Mr. Speaker's eye.
However, Parliament has lived on and has been venerated by the people. Although in the main we have been the subject of attack—and that is our strength—in moments of real emergency people say, "Recall Parliament".
I shall cut out much of what I propose to say because I do not want to deal with the technical aspects. However, if all the problems about lighting, cameras and heat were overcome, I would still oppose this proposal. We may handle them, but we shall not overcome them.
It is said in The Times this morning—and this shows the blind faith of their Lordships:
"The reason for their lordships' reticence in 1968 was that they did not want to move ahead of the Commons."—

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they knew their place—
"One factor which caused some peers concern was the level of lighting, and the House was assured that within a short period of years cameras would be invented which would not require extra lights (which necessarily means discomfort to those sitting beneath the glare). Since then, colour television has ' arrived ' and this needs, again, extra lighting, according to the broadcasting authorities."
In this curious business, we seem to go one step forward and three steps back. However, as I say, even if all those problems were overcome, I would not rest my argument there.
The argument is that that if all the technical difficulties were overcome people would see no more and the feeling would be just the same as if one were sitting in the Public Gallery and the Members would behave in exactly the same way. That would not happen at all. Things would not be the same. They forget the Members. Some months ago I put into my Press cuttings a lettet written by Mr. Malcolm Muggeridge in The Times—and I always quote The Times and Malcolm Muggeridge when I agree with them. Mr. Muggeridge said:
"I note that"—
a Member of Parliament—
"assumes that it would be possible to televise the proceedings of Parliament in such a way that the viewer would be in the same case as occupants of the public gallery in the House of Commons. This, in fact, is not so, whoever or whatever might be the agency responsible for filming, editing and presenting the requisite footage. The best way to illustrate the point is by means of a practical example. When I was a journalist in Washington in the days of President Truman, the White House press conference was a valuable source of news and of contact with the Administration. One gathered informally round the President's desk, and he answered questions off-the-cuff. Supplementaries were cheerfully accepted, and a lot of useful and sometimes diverting unrehearsed exchanges took place"—
as they do here.
"Later, the press conference was televised, and thereby inevitably turned into an occasion for the President to present himself to the American electorate. He is made up"—
Mr. Speaker might be made up—
"laboriously briefed, on his dignity"—
Mr. Speaker is always on his dignity, without effort—
"the journalists come with what they propose to ask meticulously prepared, they, too, conscious of being in the public eye. Spontaneity is lost, and the whole thing becomes lust one more boring political spectacular."
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Mr. Muggeridge goes on to retail that Mr. James Reston, one of the most distinguished journalists, does not think it worth going on with any more.
Mr. Michael English: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Pannell: No, if my hon. Friend does not mind. I know that he is trying to be helpful, but he must let me get on o my own bumbling way.
Mr. Muggeridge continued:
"Without a doubt the same thing will happen to Parliament if ever it allows itself to be televised. Some foretaste of the consequences may be glimpsed in Canberra"—
and I note that the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maude), who has some experience there, is nodding his head—
"where the proceedings of the Federal Parliament are transmitted in full on a special radio channel. It is fascinating to watch from the press gallery how, round about peak listening time, the House fills with honourable members, who cluster round the microphones with a view to shouting out something that might be listened to with pleasure or amusement by their far-flung constituents."
There is a moral in this story. Looking through The Times hooks of Members of Parliament, I came across the name of Mr. Balfour, who was Member for Stirling from 1945 to 1949. He increased his majority in all the elections without ever saying a word in Parliament. He did rise once, and Mr. Speaker Morrison said:"Mr. Balfour, I presume".
Mr. Kerr: This would make good television.
Mr. Pannell: I do not wish to make a long speech, and I would sooner make it without interruption.
I do not wish to bore the House but I ask hon. Members to consider this matter profoundly. A man must be here as a free man. Above all things, he must be able to live with himself. The House of Commons must be able to live with itself.
This is not an élitist doctrine. The House must have command of its own ethos. How I am regarded by my fellow Members counts with me rather more than certain plaudits outside. I ask hon Members to search their experience. As

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they get older, they find that the occasional friendly word or the receiving of a note from somebody who is pleased with one's speech pleases one more than a great deal of outside admiration. As my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) has said, we are 630 Members who all see our job in a different way. That is the strength of the place. It is not only what a man says but what he is that counts in this place, and we give a certain weight to that sort of thing. We do not need to have the glare of the cameras upon this place. Generally speaking, television has been not an elevating but an enervating influence on most of the institutions which it has touched.
I finish with a quotation from something which I read last night:
"The truth is that until the totality of British TV becomes a more responsible and committed instrument of social values and education, it is essential that the major institutions of order and reflection stand aloof and disdain from being tempted to conform to the box's standards and demands.
There must be somewhere in our land where the citizens' problems and future can be weighed, debated and discussed, without the camera glaring to hinder reflection and the need for instant popularity intruding to jostle contemplation and confuse objectivity.
Such bulwarks against the telly takeover should obviously be the law courts and Parliament. If and when TV changes we can all think again."
I think that that will be a very long time. I ask the House at the end of the day not to fall lower than those who formed the majority—a majority of one—who rejected this monstrous Motion six years ago.
4.52 p.m.
Mr. David Steel: We have had a characteristically robust and entertaining speech from the right hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) in opposition to the Motion. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not take it amiss, for I mean no disrespect when I say that he is one of the most traditional and traditionalist of Members.
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is a fundamental question of principle whether we wish to see the proceedings of the House transmitted directly to a wider public. I have no doubt about it. I have always held the view that
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the House should allow this medium of communication access to the homes of the general public.
I was Chairman of the sub-Committee in the last Parliament which was responsible for conducting the experimental sound broadcasts referred to by the hon. Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Batsford). I agree with the hon. Gentleman that one important word in the Motion is the word "public". It will always remain my belief that, had that experiment been used for transmission to the public, we should never have looked back, and we should probably have had sound versions of our proceedings available to the public during the last few years. It was always my view that it was preferable to begin with an experiment in sound broadcasting before moving to the more dramatic experiment or invasion of visual broadcasting.
It is fair to say that few hon. Members listened to the output of that experiment. Very few came upstairs to where the broadcasts were assembled. The few who did were, I think, impressed not just with the straight recording of the voices and speeches in this place but, more important and significant when we are considering this Motion, with the use which was made editorially by the BBC of different parts of the recordings to assemble regional news bulletins.
Members are sometimes frightened—I have heard this said in conversation many times—that one of the effects of editorial selection of broadcasting would be that only Front Bench speakers and one or two prima donnas would be seen and reported on television. Those Members would do well to remember that one of the greatest values of allowing a continuous tape to be used freely by the broadcasting authorities is that subjects which are little reported or only of regional or local importance, which receive scant attention from the national Press, would be well reported and used from the continuous tape by the regional television stations and local broadcasting authorities. That is one aspect of the experiment which should be firmly borne in mind when we consider whether it should be allowed.
It is always my regret that the work which the Sub-Committee carried out was in a sense stymied by the majority of

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the House of Commons Services Committee which supported the then Leader of the House, the right hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) in opposing a report to the House, which would have enabled sound broadcasting to begin. The right hon. Member for Workington, like the right hon. Member for Leeds, West, is one of the more traditional Members. I am devoted to him, but I remember the long debates which took place in the Services Committee about the introduction of the television annunciators which now exist throughout the House and Members' rooms. We now accept them as a great convenience. They give us more information and greater flexibility than the old pieces of ticker tape which were assiduously repaired by little men in dark rooms somewhere in the City of London.
The right hon. Member for Workington wished to preserve that system. He was opposed to the introduction of the annunciators which after a few years we all accepted as a great convenience. I always consider that the right hon. Members for Workington and Leeds, West, had they been alive at the invention of the wheel, would have regarded it with the deepest distrust and suspicion.
We are not today debating whether television should be invented. We are not debating what should be the general quality of television. Television exists in most of the homes in the country and it is the most effective medium of communication. It is used by the sporting organisations, the churches and every other walk of life except Parliament. Parliament is the one organisation, the one focus of the nation's life which has stood aloof from the use of television. That has been a grievous mistake.
Sir Fitzroy Maclean: Does the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel) agree that, while Parliament may have stood aloof, Members have done anything but stand aloof?
Mr. Steel: The hon. Gentleman is correct. However, Members should pause and consider whether they wish the system to continue whereby a certain number of hon. Members selected by the television and radio editors should be those who appear constantly on different programmes. They do so not because of their contributions in the House but
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because of the peculiar quality which they may possess of being able to appear on television, which is a different matter.
To speak in the House or to participate in Question Time, if that participation were shown to the television public, would be seen as an entirely different matter from an hon. Member appearing on television in a studio or under a rain-soaked umbrella on the other side of the street. That is the system which has been used so far. It would be far more effective if we were to accept that the natural proceedings of the House should be shown to the viewing public.
One of the fears of those who oppose the Motion is that it might change the character of the House and the way in which we conduct ourselves. There is no evidence that that will happen—[HoN. MEMBERS: "Oh."] We had the same argument when we were considering whether to allow television to cover the party conferences. I remember the grave fears of many right hon. and hon. Members: that the introduction of television into the party conferences would totally ruin the character of those conferences as we had known them, that the exhibitionists would hog the cameras, that the worst aspects of our respective parties and the cranks would get more attention. I recall all the discussion that went on. It is fair to say that in the first year or two when the television cameras arrived at the party conferences the cameras and lights were obtrusive and had a marginal effect on the character of the party conferences. But I aver that today both delegates and viewers accept television at the party conferences as a normal pattern and that it has had no long term effect in altering the character of the freedom of debate generally at the party conferences.
I should like to deal with two technical points raised by the right hon. Member for Leeds, West. He told us that even if all the technical objections were met he would still vote against the idea, but he raised some technical objections.
One important point which should be made concerns the House of Lords' experiment. I went to watch it. I was horrified by both the amount of lighting and the placing of the television cameras which their Lordships accepted on the Floor of their Chamber. It must be clear that there will he no television cameras

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on the Floor of this Chamber and that the great bulk of the lighting will be outside the windows on either side. Therefore, I do not think that we would suffer the same degree of disruption or discomfort which the other place did on that occasion.
There is then the basic question: who will edit and select what is to be shown to the public? Again, I imagine that, as a matter of permanent decision, this would have to await the outcome of an experiment if Parliament decided to have one. However, I see no objection to having the BBC and the IBA deciding what is to be shown under their general obligation of impartiality. After all, that is what happens with the Press today. Nobody dictates what it does or does not report from Parliament. This applies to the radio programme, "Today in Parliament". I find that many Members of Parliament listen to that programme. We all think that the editor of the day has been perhaps a little lacking when our own speeches are not included for mention. Apart from that, rarely are there any complaints from Members of Parliament that bias has been shown by the editors of that programme in selecting what they choose to report. I do not see why we should not accept the editorial control of the BBC and the IBA over what they would wish to show.
Throughout history this House has shown a strong resistance to allowing the public to have access to what goes on here. In 1641 we passed the Resolution making it a breach of privilege to report our proceedings. In 1771 we were still despatching printers and publishers of the proceedings of this House to the Tower, including the Lord Mayor of London of the day. In the course of that debate there was a minority of the House who averred:
"That the practice of letting the constituents know the parliamentary behaviour of their truest representatives was founded on the truest principles of the constitution."
They lost on that occasion, and the prohibition on the publication of our proceedings remained for a very long time. I believe that statement is true. We ought not to be afraid—for that is what it is—to allow the public direct access to what happens here. We should no longer accept the secondhand interpretations, the secondhand accounts, by the broadcasting authorities, however expertly
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done, and, in my view, it is done extremely expertly. We should allow direct access from here to the people because—here I disagree fundamentally with the right hon. Member for Leeds, West—this House belongs not to us as some kind of exclusive club, but to the nation. If we believe that, we cannot deny the most effective medium of communication today between the politician and the public.
5.5 p.m.
Mr. Angus Maude: I recognise the persuasiveness of the speech by the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel) which we have just heard, but I believe it to be founded on a number of misconceptions.
It is as well that we should narrow the debate to understand exactly what we are discussing. First, we are told that this is to be an experiment—yet a public experiment, not a closed-circuit experiment Inevitably, this will be the thin edge of a pretty considerable wedge, and the thin ends of wedges are always dangerous.
The hon. Gentleman said that if we had once done this it would have been very difficult to go back. If we once do it now, it will be very difficult to go back. In my view, we have no right to say that this is only an experiment, we can see how it works, and then make up our minds. We may be deprived of the opportunity of making up our minds effectively. It is the duty of right hon. and hon. Members to make up their minds now whether the televising or broadcasting of the proceedings of this House is right in itself and, if they are not convinced of that, to reject the Motion.
Clearly, we are not talking about continuous televising or broadcasting live of the proceedings of this House. I do not think that anybody has ever suggested that the enormous cost and inconvenience of tying up one public channel of television all day would be worthwhile.
Continuous sound broadcasting of the proceedings of Parliament, to which I had the misfortune to have to listen from time to time during three years in Australia, is a mistake on almost every count. Not only does it provide unbelievably dull broadcasting, but it is almost impossible for the public to understand what is going on by sound alone without a linking commentary all the time. So we

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can clearly limit ourselves to the question of continuous recording from which an edited summary will be produced for half or three-quarters of an hour, or whatever it may be, at the end of the day.
I do not want to go into the question whether we feel we can trust individual producers at the BBC, ITN, or wherever, to make a fair summary. This is perhaps the least important of the questions of principle involved, because, as the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles said, we have seen that the BBC programme, "Today in Parliament", provides a fair and balanced summary of a day's proceedings in this House. I do not think anybody has any complaint about bias or selection in that programme.
But those who have instanced that programme have failed to realise that its fairness, balance and impressiveness springs from the fact that it is a condensed summary in indirect speech of a continuing debate. The moment we try to turn that into a series of recorded direct speech extracts from a debate, the whole nature of the programme will be changed. Not only will the dangers of selection and the distortion of balance enormously increase, but it will be more difficult to obtain a coherent summary of what has happened in a debate if the medium is tied to live extracts.
If we are to get over this problem, inevitably we shall be forced to change the nature of our debates and individual speeches. Perhaps it is a fault in us, but how many hon. Members, when they are on their feet making a speech, consciously think, "I must somehow get into one paragraph the whole substance of my speech so that it can be reproduced and sound effective by itself"? Of course, we do not, and it is quite wrong that we should construct our speeches with that end in view. It would distort the nature of speaking in this House if we did.
There is another point that is worth bearing in mind, which I hope the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles will consider. It has been said so often that it is the right of the public to hear and see what happens here, that we are public servants and that the public have the right to watch us at work and to judge us by how we are seen in our Chamber. But the purpose
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of this Assembly is not to speak from these benches directly to members of the public. The business of hon. Members is to address themselves, sometimes in general terms to specific problems, but more usually and more importantly to the business of improving legislation line by line and Clause by Clause. That is not a matter which can be transmitted with any likelihood of producing an exciting or interesting television programme, and to do so, would inevitably distort the nature of our deliberations.
It is not our business, except perhaps for the Prime Minister or the Leader of the Opposition in an important Supply Day debate, to speak in this House directly to the nation. We are speaking to each other and addressing ourselves to a highly complicated technical task for which this place is suited and for which it has built up a technique over the centuries which will be fundamentally changed by an experiment of this nature.
I do not believe that it is right to say that there should be no place to which cameras have no access. I agree with the right hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) that it is important precisely that there should be some places where the cameras have no access and where people, without having to consider the popular appeal which the television cameras require and the element of drama which makes for good entertainment, can consider the business of the House on its merits and in its own right.
There is the question of using the television camera or the sound broadcasting microphone to produce a recorded summary of extracts at the end of the day. I can conceive of the "Today in Parliament" programme occasionally using a small number of recorded sound extracts where at present it uses a direct extract from an hon. Member's speech. That is the absolute limit to which I would be prepared to go, and in no circumstances could I ever support the introduction of television cameras into the House, not just for general reasons that I have already stated but for two other reasons which are, I believe, extremely important.
Without trying to make too much of a case about the hard life that hon. Members lead, there are occasions here, and sometimes long periods, when the work of

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Members of Parliament is not without a considerable element of strain. For example, when we have an all-night sitting on an important Committee or Report Stage, some people, in particular Ministers and Shadow Ministers, and, perhaps, the chairmen of backbench committees, have to be here all the time. That is a strain, and there were occasions during the last Parliament when some hon. Members were working a 15 or 18-hour day, including sittings in the Chamber, Standing Committees, party commitees and the rest.
To add to that the thought that a camera man is trying to catch us unawares, trying to catch us asleep during one of our Front Bencher's speeches will add to the strain, which, as we all know, can be considerable over a period.
Without going to the lengths of the former hon. Member for Stirling, Mr. Balfour, to whom the right hon. Member for Leeds, West referred, we all know there have been and are hon. Members who are first-class constituency Members and first-class House of Commons men but who do not spend the majority of their lives in the Chamber. They spend a great deal of their time not only in Standing Committees but on Select Committees, dealing with constituency correspondence and so forth. Once it comes to be thought that the test of whether a man or woman is a good Member of Parliament is how often he or she is seen in the Chamber by a television camera, then a great many good constituency Members will be disadvantaged to the disadvantage also of their constituents.
Taking all these factors into consideration and considering all the disadvantages of this experiment, which I believe may well be irreversible if once it is allowed. we must ask what are the advantages which are offered to us in exchange. They seem to me to be minimal. It is no use saying that hon. Members cannot be seen on television or that the regional television and particularly the local radio stations do not deal with local items of news and issues which come up in this place. In my experience they do and in very considerable detail.
I do not believe that the amount of interest among the viewing of or listening public would be sufficient to justify either the cost of the experiment or the
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disadvantages which we, the House and politics would suffer as a result.
5.17 p.m.
Mr. William Hamilton: The speech we have just heard and the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell), whom the television cameras would have picked up coming back after having disappeared immediately after his speech, show the conservatism and traditionalism which bedevils the House whenever it is discussing changes in procedures.
Mr. C. Pannell: On a point of order. My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) made an accusation against me which was frankly not true. He is a friend of mine and I do not dispute that immediately after my speech I passed along the end of the bench to hand over some notes. But I have been in the Chamber ever since.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): As the right hon. Member already knows, these matters are, mercifully, not points of order for me.
Mr. Hamilton: I apologise immediately to my right hon. Friend. I was about to point out, without being accused of "leaking" party meetings—a thing which never happens on our side of the House—that the speech he made this afternoon was very different from the speech he made at the party meeting yesterday. His speech yesterday indicated that this place belonged to us and today he modified that view because he was speaking in public and saying that it belonged to the people.
Let us be perfectly clear that the people of this country have a right to know far more about what happens in this place than they get to know from the present mass media. I take a simple example. My hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Mr. John Smith) made two speeches in the debates yesterday on the Museums and Galleries Admission Charges Bill relating specifically to Scotland and which were of great importance to Scotland. There was not a word in any of the Scottish newspapers this morning about those speeches. Similarly, there are other defects in my right hon. Friend's present thesis and I shall deal with them in due course.

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The House must, understand from the beginning that we want an experiment. I do not believe that it is irreversible. My own party has said that joining the EEC is not irreversible. If that is not irreversible, who is to say that we cannot take out five cameras? We are sovereign, are we not? We can take the cameras out if we do not like them.
We do not know the technical problems and difficulties until we have had a look at them, and we can only have a look at them when we have seen them here in operation. Let us have a go. Let us not be like a child crying in the dark. Let us not turn ourselves into a monastery and pretend that we are in holy orders and that people outside must not see what we are doing, that they must not see the empty benches. Why should not they? Why should not the people in the constituencies ask their Members why they were not in their places? [Interruption.] The action of my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) in holding up a handwritten notice asking, "Where's Ted?", is the kind of exhibitionism that seeks to express the extreme conservatism of my hon. Friend. He pretends to be a radical. Some of the most radical people on my side of the House are the most irresponsible persons. They are terrified of trying something new. When someone says to me, "Protect traditionalism", I tend to reach for a gun. That is the damnation of this House. We want to rid of all these traditions—[HON. MEMBERS: ' Not all."] Well, most of them.
What I want to see is not an experiment but a series of experiments over three or four months, because what is needed is a process of education. The Government gained power because of their promise of more open Government, and this will be a step in that direction, provided the experiment is not limited to activities in this Chamber. The hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maude) is right to say that some of the more important activities of this House take place outside the Chamber. I hope that the House will not seek to give the editing of the broadcasts exclusively to the outside profesional media, but that we shall retain a large measure of editorial control within our own hands. The media, the Independent Broadcasting Authority and the British Broadcasting
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Corporation, must be given to understand that it is an educational process in which they are engaged, and that we shall see to it that if they treat it only as an entertainment we shall stop it. That will be in our power, and we shall retain that power.
I hope that there will be a series of experiments. One would be televising the House live. Another would be televising live some of the work that goes on in Select Committees, where Ministers are questioned and challenged in depth on their policies. The Press is now allowed into those meetings, and there is no reason why the television cameras should not be allowed in. As for Standing Committees, why should not we have the meetings of the Scottish Grand Committee in Edinburgh televised in Scotland? I suspect that that will have almost the unanimous approval of the House. There is no reason why that kind of thing should not be incorporated in the experiment of televising Parliament, which does not mean exclusively televising what happens in this Chamber.
There should also be, what already takes place, the televising of a Member in his constituency, travelling from door to door or at his surgeries. The experiment should involve a whole mass of education of the public in the working of Parliament, which does not exclusively take place in this Chamber. For Heaven's sake, let us give it a try.
I am not bothered too much by the technical problems. If they are oppressive, if the lighting, heat and so on are intolerable, we shall wait until there has been sufficient technical advance to eliminate the problems. Meanwhile, let us see what they are in the experiment on which I hope we are about to embark.
Mr. Kenneth Lomas: My hon. Friend is making a very valid point, but his speech seems to be very much in favour of not televising the House. Does not he agree that the Motion is woolly and wild? It obviously attracts the Liberal Party. Cannot we have a positive Motion to decide what we want to do if we have an experiment? We do not know what we are trying to experiment about.
Mr. Hamilton: The Leader of the House will take part in the debate, and I presume that he will tell us what is in

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the Government's mind. I do not know what he will say, but I am saying that I should like a series of experiments not only in this Chamber but in the Committees of the House and the outside work of the Member, to justify the sight of empty benches, so that the public may know that some of the most important work of the Member takes place outside the House. What I want is a series of experiments, and not one.
The Motion is a generalised Motion that we accept the principle of televising some of what takes place in Parliament.
Mr. Alexander W. Lyon rose—
Mr. Hamilton: I must get on.
We have in this building a mausoleum that stands empty—Westminster Hall, which is completely useless. Why cannot we incorporate into our experiment closed-circuit television screens in Westminster Hall, thus transforming it into virtually a theatre? That would be especially useful in the summer months, when there are queues of people outside the building waiting to enter the public gallery, many of whom are unable to do so. Such an internal television circuit could be in addition to the experiment now proposed.
I beg the House to let the experiment go forward. It is not irreversible. We can tell the professional media people that we intend to retain editorial control over what goes out. Let us not be afraid of the modern media. Whether we like it or not, the modern medium is television. The immediate past Chairman of my party recently criticised the public media and particularly the Press. I think that he was right in saying that we get a bad deal from the newspapers. The view that most of the newspapers are Tory-dominated and extremely biased against us is shared by most of our supporters outside. If we get the television medium in here and retain control over it, they will see things in the House that folks would never believe happened, and that is a damned good thing for democracy. Let us have rich red blood flowing throughout the country. Let us have more open government. Let us not don the sackcloth and ashes of a monastery and pretend that we are something separate from the people outside. We are sent
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here by the people. They have a right to know what we are doing.
5.30 p.m.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Robert Carr): I fear that there will now be less good red blood flowing and a rather thinner diet for a few moments. But I thought it would be helpful if I intervened as briefly as possible to give information on a number of points, information which is needed for the House to make up its mind.
First, I want to make it absolutely clear that the Government are not seeking to influence the decision of the House in the matter in any way. They have no interest in doing so. The Motion will be decided by a genuinely free vote, and the Government are entirely content to abide by the decision of such a free vote.
Secondly, perhaps I may say something about my personal position. Hon. Members may recall that on past occasions, and again quite recently, I have made known my personal conviction that the televising of our proceedings would be in the best long-term interests of the House and Parliament as a whole. But I am sure that it would not be right for me as Leader of the House to elaborate on this occasion on why I strongly hold that view. I itch to participate in the argument, but I think I had better restrain myself.
However, I want to make it quite cleat that there will be a free vote for Ministers just as much as for other Members, and I shall be supporting the Motion in the Lobby.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: In view of what my right hon. Friend has just said, perhaps he would make it clear that while he has his views and has expressed them, some of his colleagues on the Government Front Bench, whose service in the House is as long and whose experience is the same, take a diametrically opposite view to his.
Mr. Carr: I have just said that it will be a free vote for Ministers as much as for all other Members. There is no doubt that that is the case. Therefore, I do not think it proper for me to enter into the argument.

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What I do believe is that it will be helpful if I, as Leader of the House, briefly deal with one or two important aspects of any experiment in broadcasting our proceedings, and in particular if I tell hon. Members of some of the discussions we have had with the British Broadcasting Corporation and the Independent Broadcasting Authority in preparation for the debate. These are important matters, which the House might like to know about in coming to a decision.
First, the Motion proposes that the experiment should be a public one, broadcast on public television and sound channels, and not just on closed circuit as was proposed in 1966. The only view on merit that I will express is that I believe very strongly that if we are to have an experiment we should have a public experiment. I say that because it seems to me that otherwise the House would lack important evidence on which to make its ultimate decision. We cannot judge the way in which the broadcasting authorities incorporate live extracts from our proceedings in daily summaries of parliamentary proceedings, news broadcasts or feature programmes, which is what the public will see if we ever go in for it on a permanent basis, unless this experiment, if we have it, is a public one. Perhaps even more important, nor can we judge the public reaction, or our reaction as Members, unless we see what the experiment looks like on the public screen outside rather than on a closed circuit.
Mr. J. T. Price: I am sorry to have missed the right hon. Gentleman's first few sentences. Can he explain in greater detail what is the difference in visual terms between the image on the closed-circuit screen and on the screen outside? Can he also say what the experiment will cost, if and when it is carried out?
Mr. Carr: I shall come to the cost in a moment. But there is no difference in what one sees on the screen. The difference is in who sees the screen. If we are to make up our minds, it is necessary that the public should see the broadcast and that we should get the reaction of the public; for otherwise I do not believe that we can decide whether our proceedings should be broadcast on a permanent basis. That is the only point of
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merit that I shall put. If we have an experiment, I strongly advocate that it should be a public experiment, as is advocated by the Motion.
Sir Myer Galpern: In the unfortunate event of the House deciding to engage in the experiment, if the BBC finds that the popularity ratings of the experiment are so low that it is not worth continuing—because the broadcasting authorities are interested in popularity ratings—what power has the House to compel the BBC to continue with the broadcasts?
Mr. Carr: That is no doubt an interesting question but one to which we shall not know the answer, or find one, until or unless we have had an experiment.
The central matter on which the House needs to be satisfied today is that during any experiment the proceedings of the House will be seen by the general public in a fair and balanced way. I do not simply mean by that that there should be a reasonable party balance in the programme as a whole but also that the proceedings of the House should be known to the public in a way that is representative and fair to the general reputation of Parliament. The use of a record of our proceedings, particularly a visual one, in producing summarised parliamentary reports undoubtedly poses considerable and delicate problems of editorial balance and judgment. It is no good trying to deny that.
As the House will be aware, the broadcasting authorities are already under an obligation to treat political matters with due balance and also with accuracy and impartiality. These obligations are embodied in Statute and also in past official correspondence. I believe, however, that if the experiment takes place the broadcasting authorities might justifiably be asked to give specific written undertakings relating to these general obligations and how they would be interpreted in the special conditions of the public experiment of broadcasting our proceedings.
I think the House should know that the broadcasting authorities have assured me that they would be willing to provide such undertakings if that were to be the wish of the House. It is my belief that the House ought not to attempt to lay

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down a detailed—and if it were detailed almost inevitably a contentious—series of rules governing which parts of our proceedings can and cannot publicly be broadcast, but I think that it might be useful to discuss this with the BBC and the IBA and get some general guidance and agreement laid down in correspondence. All I would suggest at the moment is that the guiding rule might be that our proceedings as broadcast should be as open to the cameras as to the eye of someone sitting in the public galleries, neither more nor less.
If we have this experiment and it is subsequently decided that it justifies a permanent arrangement, the House might then, of course, eventually wish to decide more detailed permanent rules governing what should or should not be broadcast, but I think that as far as the experiment is concerned an exchange of letters with the authorities might possibly give the House all the safeguards that it would need.
For the experiment it is inevitable, I think, having talked to the broadcasting authorities, that the cameras would be limited to this Chamber. Again, however, if the experiment were to lead us to conclude that we wished to have a permanent arrangement, the whole question of broadcasting various committees, particularly perhaps those with regional interests, such as the Scottish and Welsh Grand Committees, or the Northern Ireland Committee if we have it, is something which might well be included. But we must realise that what the broadcasting authorities can inject by way of resources for an experiment must have some limit, and therefore for the experiment we would have to be content with cameras in the Chamber alone.
The other principal issue on which the House will need assurance is the question of how far the physical requirements of television, particularly in relation to lighting, cameras, cables, and so on would affect the convenience of Members and so on. On this I have had considerable conversations with the broadcasting authorities, and correspondence, too. It is no good denying that the 1968 experiment in the House of Lords showed that this was a very real problem, not least perhaps because of the rise in heat-
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ing levels brought about by the increased lighting required for television at that time. I think it was generally accepted that the problems would be intensified by the subsequent introduction of colour television. I think, therefore, that it is worth underlining what my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Bats-ford) said, that I am assured by the broadcasting authorities that technical developments since that time have improved the position considerably.
In particular, as my hon. Friend made clear, it is hoped not only to minimise the glare but also perhaps to remove the heat level problem by the use of indirect lighting, with the lights situated outside the windows and reflecting diffused light down from the roof into the Chamber. It is also true that the introduction of more sensitive colour cameras would avoid the increased level of lighting which in colour television would have been expected only a short time ago. This technical advance is still going on, so in a year or two the lighting requirements should be less stringent than they are at the moment, when they are less demanding than they were a few years ago.
Mr. Neil Marten: Is there any truth in the rumour that if the lighting came from outside and was reflected down, we would have to have something like what the Dutch Parliament has, a plastic roof to catch the reflection and bring it down?
Mr. Carr: I cannot say. This is why we must have an experiment. We can discuss these things and have opinions about them, but during the course of the experiment of a few weeks no doubt the broadcasting authorities would want to try out various types and intensities of lighting in order to discover which were the best. However hard we try, we cannot theorise sensibly about these things. It is only when we try them out that we shall discover whether they are likely to be tolerable on a permanent basis.
Mr. Robert Hughes: Many of us are genuinely troubled that the introduction of the experiment will lead to the permanent installation of cameras in this House. Can we be assured, when it comes to the question of cost, that there will be no question of saying, once we have the cameras in and the lights installed, that they must stay

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until we have made up our minds? Could they be removed so that we would not be under the pressure of being told, "We have to save the cost"?
Mr. Carr: I certainly give that assurance absolutely. There is absolutely no reason for anything of that kind. Indeed, this was one of the next points I was coming to.
For an experiment in the near future, simply because the cameras would be temporary they would be far more obstrusive than they would have to be if the system became permanent. If we were to decide, following the experiment, to have permanent broadcasting facilities, it would be possible to build into one or two places—under the galleries, for example—cameras smaller than those which would be used in the experiment and in a way that they would be scarcely noticeable to us. But apart from wanting the threat of them overhanging us, as it were, in our considerations whether the experiment should be made permanent, it would mean a totally unjustified expenditure for the experiment if the cameras which would be used in permanent broadcasting were to be installed. So during the experiment there would have to be cameras in the Chamber, which would be rather annoying to us. But, as I have said, if we were to decide after the experiment to go on with broadcasting permanently, the degree of discomfort and annoyance could be greatly reduced.
However, even for the experiment the trouble caused by the cameras could be less than we might have feared. Not long ago, it was the view of the authorities that they would need probably eight cameras to cover the Chamber adequately and to give a proper variety of shots and so forth in making a worthwhile programme. Now it is felt that five would be sufficient. Probably three would be, I understand, as it were, at our level, and of those three two would be remotely controlled; while only one, for the purpose of the experiment, would have an operator, and that camera might be under one of the galleries. The other two of the five would be at a higher level. Therefore, there would probably be, even for the experiment, only one camera manually controlled within what for normal practice we regard as the precincts of the Chamber. That is much better
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than could have been expected some time ago. On a permanent basis, as I have said, the conditions could be made better still.
Furthermore, it would be one of the intentions of the broadcasting authorities in the experiment to try out various types of lighting to see what was necessary and what was not. I have a feeling, speaking purely as a layman, that the degree of lighting required to provide technical perfection may not be necessary to produce a picture which is readily acceptable to the viewing public. I very much hope that we would be able to persuade the broadcasting authorities to try various intensities of overall lighting as well as various methods of lighting, just to see what level of lighting would produce a generally acceptable picture to us and to the public.
I now wish to outline briefly the framework of what the experiment itself might be like if we were to decide to go in for it, the sort of thing which the broadcasting authorities have suggested to me as a basis for further discussion if today's vote goes that way. I think that the House would wish, for the purpose of making up its mind today, to know, from the viewpoint of the broadcasting authorities, what they would see as a viable experiment. If the whole proceedings each day might be broadcast, we should be very much concerned with what the broadcasting authorities think they might actually show to the public.
Such an experiment, I am told, could take place in the early summer of next year, if that were the wish of the House. It is suggested by the broadcasting authorities that it might last for about three weeks.
The BBC and the IBA would propose to provide quite separate programmes. I think that we should welcome that because, again, it would create more variety for us and the public to judge by. The BBC envisages that it would hope to show during the experiment a series of nightly half-hour televised summaries of the day's proceedings. They would be shown after 11 o'clock at night and would be repeated at the following lunchtime. Extracts of the proceedings would be included during the experiment in television news broadcasts and, in addition, the BBC would hope to show additional programmes

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covering perhaps one or two Question times and/or a major debate.
The IBA would propose to include recorded visual extracts for nightly news bulletins and also regional news magazines, and would include a "Week in Parliament" item in a weekly news magazine, would show one or two late night longer summaries of the day's proceedings and perhaps would also cover a full debate in addition to any that might be covered by the BBC. All these television broadcasts by both authorities would, it is proposed, be in colour.
Mr. Whitehead: Can the right hon Gentleman explain whether this blue print for the experiment, in the form he envisages it, is the form on which we shall be voting tonight, or whether it is ideas and proposals that he is now airing and he will listen to other views in the House as to the form which the experiment should take?
Mr. Carr: I am glad the hon. Member raised that point. What I am indicating to the House at the moment is the sort of thing which the broadcasting authorities have indicated to me they believe they could do. It is not a final blueprint, and certainly not laid down by me or the Government or the authorities. I thought it would be helpful to the House to know the sorts of thing on which there might be further discussion. In just a moment I was about to say a word about how that further discussion with the authorities might be conducted if the House were to decide in favour of the experiment.
In addition, during the experiment, the BBC says, it would like perhaps to include recorded speech of the proceedings in both the House of Commons and another place in its sound radio programmes, "Today in Parliament" and "Yesterday in Parliament" and also, presumably, in sound news bulletins as well.
If I may refer briefly to the costs, the costs of an experiment would be borne principally by the broadcasting authorities themselves. Providing we agree to its being a public experiment—I think it would be quite different if we were to say there should be a private closed-circuit experiment before we were to agree to a public experiment—then the broadcasting authorities would be pre-
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pared to bear the bulk of the costs themselves, and the cost to public funds would be related entirely to the temporary provisions needed in this Chamber. I am advised that the amount would be no more than £2,000. I am, of course, referring to an experiment of about three weeks' duration.
In our discussions with the broadcasting authorities we have made clear that we think the House would wish that there should be sufficient coverage of proceedings during the main viewing hours, so that we should be able to get in a fair assessment of general public opinion—and not just specialised opinion such as those who would be likely to watch or listen if all the programmes were broadcast only late at night. The authorities have agreed that in any experiment their coverage of our proceedings during the main evening hours would be as generous as possible, and this, too, is something we might wish to pursue with them further if the House decides in principle on the experiment.
They have also intimated—this takes up a point raised by the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton)—that within any experiment of the nature I am talking about they would seek to vary the format and treatment of the programmes as much as possible during the three weeks or whatever period, so that we and the public could try to get as wide evidence as possible of the various possibilities open to them and to us if it were ever to become permanent.
Mr. Gorst: I wonder whether my right hon. Friend could make it absolutely and emphatically clear that if we vote this evening we shall be voting on an experiment and that subsequently, after the experiment, this House will have opportunity, regardless of any argument this evening, to have a further debate on the results of the experiment.
Mr. Carr: I have said that, and I say it again, and I shall say something more about it before I close.
I believe that these proposals would form a reasonable basis for an experiment, or at least for discussion about an experiment, if the House decides in principle.
I have already said that it is not a matter for the Government to decide. Therefore, I do not think it would be

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appropriate for the Government to conduct these further discussions with the broadcasting authorities if the House votes in favour of the experiment. So what I would suggest is that, if the House does pass this Motion this evening, the question of detailed arrangements and the further discussions with the BBC and the IBA about the form of the experiment and of the sorts of things I have been talking about should be entrusted to the Services Committee acting on behalf of the House. I would think that to be the right way of dealing with it.
I would emphasise again that all the ideas I have been putting forward, following our discussions with the broadcasting authorities, are simply to be the basis on which the Services Committee's discussions would start and are not in any way the final product, unchangeable; they are indications of the sorts of thing which might be possible. It would then be for the Services Committee to have any further discussions between now and next spring with the authorities to see what they can agree.
Mr. Wilfred Proudfoot: Will my right hon. Friend allow me?
Mr. Carr: I am concerned about the time of the House I am taking. I will give way once more but that is the end.
Mr. Proudfoot: Can my right hon, Friend say whether the experiment will include closed circuit to the queue outside?
Mr. Carr: This is the sort of trouble which arises when one gives way because one seems to cover then most of what one was going to say anyway. I was going to deal with that in a moment, but I will deal with it almost straight away.
I want to suggest that it would be appropriate for the Services Committee, or a special sub-committee, to be given in those circumstances the task of assessing the results of any experiment; and that Members should, therefore, be able to raise complaints with that Committee during the experiment, or after it—and give them their impressions about what happened, or what should have happened. Therefore we should leave to our Services Committee first of all the
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planning of the experiment and if it takes place the assessment of it. The Committee having considered the experiment would then report to the House, and there would have to be another debate, and we should make our decision whether or not we wish to go in for broadcasting on a permanent basis on the basis of the Committee's report to us I think that is essential.
To deal with the point my hon. Friend the Member for Brighouse and Spenborough (Mr. Proudfoot) raised, I think that during the experiment there would clearly be a need for special arrangements made to ensure that Members of both Houses had adequate opportunities of viewing the programme, and also possibly, whether in Westminster Hall or elsewhere, that members of the public, waiting to get into the Public Galleries, or wishing to come in, were able to view the telecast on closed-circuit screens.
Another matter—and this is the last thing I want to say—which it would seem appropriate for the Services Committee to consider would be the question of copyright in the visual record of our proceedings, whether it should be vested in Mr. Speaker or a Committee, and the conditions on which it would be made available to other bodies such as educational bodies, overseas parliaments, and the like. This is clearly something which needs going into. I think it is a matter which the Services Committee ought to look at in detail, just as it would quite probably wish to look into the whole question of any issue of parliamentary Privilege which might be raised on the broadcasting of our proceedings.
I hope that what I have said about the discussions with the broadcasting authorities is not seen in any way as prejudging this issue but only as an attempt to help the House by forming the basis of a proper debate today. I made clear at the outset and I repeat as I close that the question of broadcasting our proceedings is a matter which is entirely for the House to decide. I hope that all I have done is to lay before the House the considerations and information which it genuinely needs to make up its mind.
Finally, I would remind the House again that the Motion before us at present is one for an experiment. I believe that we have the power, if we have the will,

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to have an experiment and to make our judgment upon it, and I do not believe that we need be as weak-willed or lacking in confidence in ourselves as to believe that if we have the experiment we have committed ourselves willy-nilly to continuing it permanently. I want to stress that this Motion is for an experiment and for an experiment only, and that is the matter which. I hope, the House will decide, with a full, free vote tonight.
6.0 p.m.
Sir Myer Galpern: The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary has made abundantly clear where he stands on the question of the experiment to televise the House, and stressed that it is only an experiment. But it is the view of some hon. Members that once we have agreed to this proposal this evening, if we are unfortunate enough to do so, this experiment will become a permanent feature of the House. I wish strongly to object to any possibility of that happening.
I asked the right hon. Gentleman in an intervention what would be the position if the BBC, over which we have no control in terms of the broadcasts it sends out, reaches the conclusion that the televising of parliamentary proceedings is not very popular and decides to drop it. Have we any power to ensure that the BBC under its charter must give half an hour, or whatever the period may be, to the televising of parliamentary proceedings if the BBC thinks that the public does not want to view such programmes?
We are assuming that there is great popular demand for the televising of our proceedings. But that has yet to be established. The BBC has decided to hold the experiment in the summer, which is a time of poor viewing audiences, and has safeguarded itself by saying that it can vary the experiment from day to day to see which broadcast has the highest popularity rating. Those responsible in the BBC may emerge from the experiment and say to the Home Secretary and to those who are in favour of this proposal that they do not think there is any need for this unfortunate departure from what has been the system in the House of Commons.
My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) raised an
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important point. He said he would like to see televised everything that happens in the House of Commons—no doubt including Members asleep or snoring, deserted benches and sparsely attended debates without people being given any explanation about where Members may be.
Mr. William Hamilton: I did not say that.
Sir M. Galpern: That is what follows from what my hon. Friend said. At the time of such broadcasts hon. Members may be sitting in Select Committees or attending afternoon sittings of Standing Committees. For example, I spent a whole week chairing the Prices and Incomes Bill and I could not get into the Chamber at all. Yet my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West is anxious to show these expanses of empty benches so that my constituents could well say, "Our Member is not in his place". They would not, of course, know that I was upstairs carrying out a much more onerous job than simply being glued to the benches of the House of Commons. That is one danger that may arise. It will mean not only that Members will have to be more often in the Chamber, which may be a good thing, but also that Members will refuse to serve on Select Committees and Standing Committees because they will realise that if they are upstairs they will not be seen to be in their places in the Chamber and will not be able to take part in interventions in televised debates in the form of points of order and other devices of parliamentary procedure.
Mr. Hugh Jenkins: Does my hon. Friend not recognize that this process will be part of the great understanding among the electorate of the workings of Parliament? Does he believe that his constituents are incapable of that type of increased understanding? If he holds that view, I am sure that not many other hon. Members share it. I am sure that those who have the intelligence to elect my hon. Friend to this House will also have the intelligence to appreciate what is going on.
Sir M. Galpern: The hon. Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Batsford), in moving the Motion, said that parliamentary procedures were not understood and that the general public were ignorant of them.

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I do not see how half an hour of television will be sufficient explanation for the viewers to understand precisely what is going on and to realise what is happening under the Standing Orders of this House and all the rest of our procedural system. If 15 minutes of the half-hour telecast is to be spent in commentary explaining exactly what is happening, it will so sicken the audience that nobody will want to watch the programme.
I should like to refer to an article which appeared in The Times yesterday containing the personal view of my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) on the televising of Parliament. He referred to the defeat in 1966 by only one vote and said,
"It was a lamentable episode and my only hope was that it would cause such a public outcry that supporters of television would be encouraged to try one more heave. But the public could not have cared less."
He went on:
"This time the circumstances are even less favourable. The prestige of Parliament has declined still further. And so has the public demand to see it in action on their television screens. But the case for the change is not to meet public demand, but to counter public neglect."
Does the BBC take that view?
Mr. English: My hon. Friend referred to there being no public demand, but the Select Committee Report mentioned the results of a poll in which 52 per cent. of the electorate liked the idea of televising the House and 34 per cent. liked the idea very much. There is, therefore, a public demand which has not yet been satisfied.
Sir M. Galpern: That poll was not infallible. I took a poll in my own area and I found that many of my constituents were satiated with the personalities hogging their screens and switched off whenever they appeared because they had seen them so often. I was quoting the words of a former Leader of the House who was at one time responsible for these matters and who is of the view that the public could not care less. He said that there was no public demand. Who is prepared to ram down the throats of the public something people do not want to view? Does not the public already get enough in the way of programmes of this nature? We already have 15 minutes of "Today in Parlia-
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ment" from 10.45 to 11 p.m., then we have it again in the morning, and there are current affairs programmes by the score. We also have a wide array of political programmes, as must be agreed by everybody.
Is there any evidence of an inadequacy of reporting of Parliament at present? The only difference under the new proposal is that the face of the speaker will be seen on the screen, but, as was said the the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel), there are two classes of performers. On the one hand, there are those who appear regularly on programmes because they are photogenic or suitable for television purposes, but the difference in terms of the House of Commons is that those who are less fortunate in appearance or approach may not get an innings.
I believe that the same standards will be applied by those who are to edit the proceedings as now are applied to the people who appear on current affairs programmes. They say, "So and so is no use. His speeches are dull and he does not show sufficient anger. We shall not use him in the edited version but shall use somebody more flowery in style who has at his command the well-polished phrase, or somebody who gets up and creates a scene. "These are the things my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West said he would like to see recorded—not to enable the public to have a better understanding of what happens in Parliament but for them to be allowed to see the cranks and comedians. That is what we shall have. It will change this place from a debating chamber into a stage for performers. That is precisely what will happen.
There is an even stronger argument than the arguments which applied when the proposition was defeated by one vote. Since then, Parliament has passed the Sound Broadcasting Act. I had the honour of chairing the Standing Committee that considered the Bill for five solid months. We spent all our time, day and night, debating the content of the programmes. One requirement was that ample time was to be devoted to political broadcasting.
Where is all this to fit in? We have already agreed to set up five central commercial broadcasting stations, with one

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in London devoted exclusively to news items and feeding news to the other stations. If that is to be the position, there will be a surfeit of news items. How will they broadcast for all these hours on these commercial radio stations unless they broadcast what the local Member says or does or what he tells them in the Lobby he intends to do but never does, anyway? These are the sorts of thing the public will be told about. The passing of the Sound Broadcasting Act is one of the most powerful arguments against televising our proceedings, because if our proceedings were to be broadcast people would get far too much of what is happening in Parliament.
I am fortunate and privileged, Mr. Speaker, to be a member of your Chairman's Panel. Over the last six years I have chaired a wide variety of Committees and in that time I have learned quickly to predict, if the Press is present, the type of speech which will be made and which speech is made purely for the purpose of attracting the attention of the Press. The Press knows that the wilder the allegation, the more atrocious the statement, and the more outrageous the behaviour the more newsworthy it is.
There is a certain type of Member who will serve on Standing Committees only if there is likely to be publicity. I see one hon. Member shaking his head, but he has served on Committees which I have chaired and they have always been concerned with such things as abortion, not mundane matters like the Finance Bill.
If the proceedings of the House of Commons are televised, my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West and the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) will become even more outrageous than they can be at present, and we shall have shaking of fists and people running across the Floor of the House, because that is what the BBC will say that the public want. We shall be told that the public do not want a humdrum speech, with an hon. Member talking about museums, for instance.
My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West cited the Museums and Galleries Admission Charges Bill, which we discussed yesterday and which was not the
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subject of much reporting. What guarantee does he offer the House that, if it approves the Motion, such matters would be reported in television, anyway? Of course the BBC would not report such a matter, because it would have no interest from the point of view of those who would edit the programme.
The leading article in The Times today reads:
"There are occasions now when the House of Commons would benefit from more reasoned argument and fewer antics. It might be hoped that behaviour would improve if Members were conscious of the cameras bearing down on them. But that argument can be used both ways. Some hon. Members would become aware of their dignity. Others might respond, as people elsewhere have responded to the presence of television, by seizing the opportunity for a little cheap publicity."
I believe that that is what will happen and it is what the BBC will argue it must show because the public will not watch the proceedings otherwise.
I will give an example. On Tuesday, when winding up the debate on the EEC Summit talks, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster spoke to a House that was fairly full. I could not hear the right hon. and learned Gentleman because of the buzz of conversation all around me. In the last few moments of his speech, the right hon. and learned Gentleman threw away his script and made an abusive attack upon my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. That led you, Mr. Speaker, to call for order because of the din which was created and the slanging match which ensued. If our proceedings were televised, that would go out as the effective part of the speech, and it is all that would go out. The televising of our proceedings could be conducted in such a way as to convey a wholly distorted impression to the viewer.
I will give a second and more modest example. At the conclusion of the debate on the Museums and Galleries Admission Charges Bill yesterday, the Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science said that he would be brisk in his concluding remarks. The hon. Member for Norwich, South (Dr. Suttaford) said this:
"I hope my hon. Friend will not be too brisk, because many of us on this side are anxious to hear what he has to say so that we may know which way we are going to vote."

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The Under-Secretary said this:
"I am glad to know that, but it would have been more helpful if such hon. Members, in addition to the few who were here today, had been also present to hear the matter more fully discussed."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th October 1972; Vol. 843, cc. 391–92.]
If our proceedings yesterday had been televised, that is all of that debate that would have been reported, as a slap in the face to any hon. Member who came into the debate late, without the public being told that the hon. Member might have been sitting on a Committee all evening upstairs. It would be legitimate for such an hon. Member's constituents to draw the inference that their Member was not present in the House at that time and was doing something quite extraneous to his parliamentary duties.
I hope that my view will be shared by the House that we already have ample coverage and that we should not agree to this experiment. If we do agree to it, we shall regret it. If the Motion is carried, I am satisfied from research that I have done among my own friends that, if we move from the stage of experiment to permanent televising of our proceedings, in view of what is coming on commercial broadcasting very shortly, and without our having any powers to force the BBC to televise whatever part of the proceeding we determine, the BBC will drop the whole thing and the House will look pretty silly.
6.20 p.m.
Mr. Michael Foot: I will return presently, if I may, to some of the general arguments which my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Shettleston (Sir M. Galpern) has been using but I begin by commenting on the speech of the Leader of the House. Whatever may be the views of hon. Members in different parts of the House—and it is evident from the debate that strong and sincere views are held on both sides of the argument—everyone will be grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for having presented the conclusions which have arisen from the discussions that have so far taken place with the broadcasting authorities.
I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman agrees, as he underlined, and I would seek to underline it, that there is nothing decisive about the discussions on the form in which this experiment should take place. Much less is there
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anything decisive about what might happen after we have the results. It might well be that the proposals of my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, North (Mr Whitehead) and the other arrangements on how to control the broadcasts will have to be discussed by the Services Committee before there are fresh discussions with the broadcasting authorities. Therefore, discussions on the technical arrangements are still wide open.
What we are discussing today, following a request from back-bench Members on all sides, is whether there should be a public experiment. If that is carried out there will need to be fresh discussions with the Services Committees to see what is the next step to be taken and whether we will be able to proceed with the experiment roughly at the time suggested and for the length of time suggested. All of these matters are still open for discussion and may be for further votes in the House. It may be that it will be discovered that this is the only way it can proceed. I say that so that no one should be in any doubt. Some hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maude), have pressed strongly the view—I have heard it from some of my hon. Friends, too, and I understand the argument—that once we have agreed to the experiment, that is the end of the matter.
I do not think we should necessarily take that view. I would put it the other way. When I give my support to this Motion I do it entirely as an individual and I do not speak for anyone else. I am not voting on the suggestion, the idea or the understanding that the experiment will be a fake. Not at all. The very opposite. The experiment must be genuine. The Press, the House and the public and all others concerned must be able to comment upon it fairly. As a result we will be able to decide as a House whether we proceed with the televising of this Parliament and how we do it. That is the situation and everyone who votes tonight will only be voting, curiously enough, for what is said in the Motion and not for anything else.
I want to direct almost the whole of my remarks to the major question of principle which is what we should be discussing. The Leader of the House properly and naturally gave to the House the result of the discussions he has had with the other

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broadcasting authorities and most of his speech was devoted to that. Most of my speech is addressed to the question of principle. Of course the technical arguments are important and if they are such that the idea became impossible, or physical disturbance was great, that will alter the principle. Moreover, if it were found that the methods of sub-editing what is produced here were too difficult, that, too, would affect the principle. What we have to decide is the principle itself and that is what I want to discuss.
We are discussing a matter of considerable importance for the sustenance of democracy: the question of the relationship between Parliament and the people. I have been surprised to hear the complacency with which some who have contributed to the debate view the present situation. I am as strong a supporter of Parliament as my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell), who opened the debate on this side of the House for those opposed to the Motion. I also believe that there are many highly creditable factors which enter into the character of this House. I wish to preserve those but I do not believe that the relationship between this House and the people outside at present is one with which we should be satisfied.
It is deeply unsatisfying, in that decades ago more and more people looked to this House of Commons, partly to this Chamber but also to Parliament as a whole. Years ago the public looked with enthusiasm or affection upon this institution. I believe that there has been some change in the relationship and that part of the change is due to the way in which the affairs of this House are reported to the people—not solely but partly. It may be partly due to the powers which Parliament has but that is a different question.
If anyone says that what we are discussing is whether television should be brought in as a reporter of the House, that is not the case. Television already reports the affairs of this House. Television today—this is not primarily its fault but ours, because of our decision not to permit orderly televising of our proceedings—is bad. It is insulting and insupportable. I have made a considerable part of my income over the years by going on television, so I do not have
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any personal complaints. Indeed, I almost feel like declaring my altruism at this point.
I think it is a demeaning process that after a major debate in the House Members of Parliament—I have done it on numerous occasions—have to be taken by the BBC or ITV or whoever it may be to appear on a programme and to be asked to compress what they have said in the debate into a couple of minutes or so and to be subjected to questioning by a chairman who perhaps has not the faintest notion of what has happened in the House. They may have come from a debate knowing perfectly well that someone else has made a much better speech, yet that person is not there.
Parliament is presented in a caricature. [Interruption.] I am first trying to get clear what happens now. I was addressing myself to why I find it so surprising that hon. Members, particularly those who may say that the distortions may be greater in the future, should be satisfied with the distortions that take place now.
Mr. Joseph Ashton: We are not.
Mr. Foot: If they do not like the distortions, let us understand that we are agreed that there is some failure in the relationship between Parliament and the people which we have to overcome. The method by which at present parliamentary discussions are reflected outside, not only on television but in the newspapers too, leaves much to be desired.
When Aneurin Bevan made his speech in 1959 on this subject his argument was partly that our affairs were conducted almost incommunicado. If that was so in 1959 it is very much more the state of affairs today. The popular Press has almost abandoned the reporting of Parliament. The Daily Express, the Daily Mail, the Sun and the Daily Mirror—the popular newspapers—hardly trouble to report Parliament at all. Take the so-called "posh" papers, The Times and the Daily Telegraph. The Daily Telegraph gives extensive reports, as does The Times. Perhaps it is a subjective feeling but I think that compared with some time ago they are giving a decreasing proportion of their space to the reporting of Parliament and that this is coupled with

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an extension of the amount of commentary and discussion about what has happened in the Lobby.
If we take The Guardian—my favourite "posh" paper if I can give such a restricted compliment—it redeems its reputation through the individual brilliance of its parliamentary sketch writer and the pertinacity of some of its Lobby correspondents. But its parliamentary reporting! I sometimes think that the curious views expressed by the Editor of The Guardian on what happens here derive from the fact that he takes literally what appears in his paper's parliamentary report! That is the only explanation I can think of. In some respects this is supposed to be a House of leakages. Journalists—I am a journalist—are supposed to live on leakages. In some ways the safest place in which to utter something one does not want to be leaked by any journalist is in the secrecy of this Chamber. I say that seriously.
The debates of this House are quite inadequately reported to the people. I am not in favour of dictating to newspapers how they should deal with this and I hope they will not be too sensitive if we comment on the way they conduct their affairs. We are entitled to do that. This House has seriously to consider the major question of whether we are satisfied with the way in which this new medium of expression reports the debates of this central forum of debate in this country or whether we want to seek means by which it can be much better done, particularly when we know how powerful this medium is.
If we could have a situation in which the debates of this House were much more consistently reported through this medium, preferably through the system advocated by my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, North—that is, a unit devised by this House, but not necessarily by that means, possibly through the procedures proposed by the right hon. Gentleman—that would be much better than we have now. It may also have some influence on the newspapers, because to some extent in some other areas the invention of broadcasting and the distribution of ideas and the discussion of certain subjects has had a beneficial effect on the newspapers, even though it does not appear to have had any influence so far as Parliament
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is concerned. Perhaps one of the reasons for that may be that television is not permitted by this House properly to report what happens here.
We have to make up our minds as Members of Parliament whether we want that to happen. Some hon. Members have said that this will alter the character of the House. The character of the House alters from generation to generation, from decade to decade. No one need imagine that the character of the House will remain the same. The decision of the House to embark upon the publication of debates altered the character of the House. Before the decision was made to allow journalists to report the affairs of this House, Henry Fox, the father of Charles James Fox, made a famous speech in which he said:
"I will speak so loud I will be heard outside this House."
That was regarded as an outrageous statement for a Member to make at the time. The idea that a person's voice should reach people outside was insulting to the whole character of the House. But the character was changed by the radicals of those days who said "We cannot be content with a Parliament which regards itself as a closed, magic circle. "Parliament was altered and it was those who altered the character of the Commons in the eighteenth century who prepared the way for all the great democratic reforms of the nineteenth century.
In the same way, if we conduct this experiment properly and if we are shown to be successful, I do not believe that Members will behave in the way my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Shettleston suggested. We all know that we have such scenes in the House. If the scenes happen it is not improper that they should be reported. But it is not possible for my hon. Friends who are against the experiment to argue strongly about the authority, tradition and dignity of this House and in the next breath to say "Once you turn on the cameras we will turn into different creatures overnight. "That is not very likely to happen.
Most of the best speeches which I have heard in this House—things may have changed in recent times—have been made from the back benches. I am in favour of keeping alive the spontaneity and surprise which can derive only from the

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proper reporting of back-bench speeches. Under the proposed new system backbenchers would have a much better chance—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] My hon. Friends ask "Why?". We shall be experimenting with a system whereby the reporting of this House will be under a body partly controlled by the House. The back-bench Member has a better chance with HANSARD, which is controlled by the House, than with the newspapers. Nobody knows for certain, but I should not be in favour of the experiment if I did not think that that was a good probability.
Mr. Ashton: Is my hon. Friend aware that the problem of back-bench Members often is that they cannot get called? My hon. Friend and I will be on "Midweek" on television tonight at 10.45 p.m. arguing the point and we shall both have the same length of time. But in this Chamber my hon. Friend is likely to have half an hour and I shall have nothing because I am on the back benches.
Mr. Foot: I understand my hon. Friend's feelings and it is partly for that reason that I am putting this case. It is the position of back-bench Members in this House which differentiates this Parliament from most other Parliaments in the world.
I was illustrating how I believe—no-body can prove it, and that is why we must have an experiment—that such a development in the way in which Parliament is reported can increase the power of the back benches and of the Opposition against the Government. In my time, Governments of different complexions have all too often been ready to drive through Bills just because they thought they had an automatic majority. Disraeli said that a majority was the best repartee. That is the view of the Treasury benches.
I should not like to take any particular example of such a Bill; it might be thought to be invidious. However, take the hypothetical example of a Bill of major constitutional importance which seeks to change perhaps the powers in this country, the powers of Parliament itself, a Bill on which there are big divisions on both sides and for which perhaps the Government have no mandate from the country and which they are seek-
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ing to drive through under a guillotine—and this shows how fanciful is the illustration—introduced by the Liberal Party.
A Government with all those advantages in such a hypothetical case would be strongly tempted to say "We do not have to answer these people. Let us try to reduce the House of Commons and the discussion to as boring a process as possible. We will not even attempt to answer the arguments. We will simply try to drive the Bill through and hope that the Press and everybody else get bored with it". If such a hypothetical example were to occur when the television cameras were operating, at least the Government spokesman would be required to a much greater degree to answer the arguments.
The House need not be defeatist in this matter. Why should we say "If we permit television to come in, we shall have to adapt ourselves to television"? Why do not we say "We can adapt television to suit our requirements"? That is what Parliament can do.
I hope that the House will agree to the experiment on the basis that it is a genuine experiment. If the experiment appears to prove the case of those who are against the general proposition, their arguments will be fortified when we come to the later decision and the later vote which will be needed to ensure that this happens. But if we reject the idea of any experiment, we shall be saying by implication that we are content with the relationship between Parliament and the people and with the fact that the argument about politics in this country is more and more being transferred from this central forum.
My belief is that the status of Parliament is in much too tender a position for us to take that attitude. If the country cannot see that its clashes, arguments and cleavages of interest are reflected in the debates, votes and arguments in this House, I believe that Parliament will decline. If Parliament declines, if people cease to have faith in Parliament, the only way in which such clashes of interest can be setled is by bloodshed. Therefore, how Parliament wishes itself to be presented to the nation is a matter of major importance.
We would make a grave mistake if we said "We shall not even have an experiment for another 10 years or more to see

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whether a job which many of us believe is being done quite inadequately can be done better". Is there any hon. Member who believes that what we debate in this House is properly reflected and in such a way that the public can see what we are doing? I think that very few Members would come to that conclusion. If they did, they would be mistaking the general mood in the country. Therefore, I hope that the House will not make any mistake on this proposition this time.
6.43 p.m.
Sir Fitzroy Maclean: The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) has presented himself most convincingly as a champion of the back bencher. However, one could not help noticing that there was an interesting unity of view between, if not the two Front Benches, then the two Front Bench speakers. They both reminded us that we were voting only for an experiment.
The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale, who in my opinion is an extremely honest man, said that this was not necessarily the end of the matter. I particularly noticed the word "necessarily". I should be prepared to bet quite a lot that if the Motion is passed it will be the end of the matter and that we shall have television with us for ever. On the other hand, I agree with the hon. Gentleman that what matters is what he called the "sustenance of democracy" in this country. I agree that that is threatened and that it is important that we should sustain it. The question is how.
I wish to begin by declaring my attachment to television. Perhaps I am not as firmly glued to the "box" as some people, but I get as much enjoyment and quite a lot of instruction from it. Like the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale, I also make a certain amount of money out of it. I have appeared on quite a lot of programmes, and I have made programmes myself. Therefore, I can quite honestly say that I have no prejudice against it as a medium. What I do have is a realistic appreciation and healthy respect for its immense power and immense impact on the affairs and life of the nation, an impact quite different from that of the Press and certainly quite different from "steam" radio.
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Speaking as someone who has been much concerned with television, I have no doubt that any reasonably skilful television producer could get out of our debates a quarter or even half an hour of entertaining edited viewing three or four times a week, with snippets from serious speeches and from less serious speeches, with interesting shots of the brisk exchanges which we sometimes witness between the two Front Benches and, if we had a good cameraman, with plenty of enjoyable reaction shots.
Think what promising television material we have had in this Parliament alone: the exciting "demo" by hon. Members opposite, with some of them snatching at the Mace; the "Red Flag" being sung, though not very tunefully, on the Floor; the Leader of the Liberal Party being physically assaulted; the hon. Lady the Member for Mid-Ulster (Miss Devlin) shooting across the Chamber like an avenging fury to pull the hair of the Home Secretary, and hon. Members on both sides of the House snatching at her, too. All that would have made first-class television, and no doubt hon. Members opposite could add some equally edifying incidents from their own experience.
From a producer's point of view, such a programme would clearly be money for old rope. But the editing of such a programme would put immense power in the hands of the producer, the editor and the cameraman—and I have done quite a lot of work myself for the BBC as a cameraman. The camera may never lie, but it can be used selectively and partially to place or displace emphasis and to produce results which bear very little relation to reality. Anyone who has watched, let alone made, a documentary or even a newsreel, especially in less democratic countries than this one, knows that. The camera can, and often from an entertainment point of view should, be used to soup up or dramatise a situation, to foreshorten it, to telescope it and so on, all in the cause of good television but not necessarily of democracy.
The question which we must ask is how advisable it would be to give powers of that kind to anyone outside this House and, further, to what extent it is the function of this House to produce entertainment for viewers. In The Times

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yesterday the right hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) gave it as his view that
"if the decline in the public esteem of Parliament is to be halted, there must be a radical reform of Parliament, including the regular televising of debates on the floor and in committees upstairs."
I make no apology for saying so, but I am inclined to view with caution any suggestion which comes from that quarter, and this one is no exception. Indeed what strikes me forcibly, quite apart from my native caution, is the lack of any weighty or convincing argument from that quarter or from anywhere else in favour of televising our proceedings and I listened carefully to what the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale had to say in a most eloquent speech. In fact the only argument in favour seems to be that nowadays everybody and everything has to be on the "telly" because otherwise they are not "with it".
A leader in The Times this morning suggests that televising our proceedings would help to
"make people much more aware of what was happening at Westminster."
But this I very much question. I believe that the impression which people would derive from their screens would inevitably be partial—all too probably in both senses of the word.
It is true of course that we could have a complete unedited television record, a television HANSARD—that seems relatively unobjectionable—but the question is who would look at it and how and when? If it went out on the ordinary channels, if that were feasible, I doubt whether it would get a very high popularity rating. And were it to be greeted with a 90 per cent. switch-off, I doubt whether in a society where television popularity ratings count for so much, it would do Parliament's image very much good.
Of course, if it is a question of televising everything, one could make a strong case, not only for televising the proceedings of the House, but also for televising the proceedings of the Cabinet. It is many years since I attended a Cabinet meeting, and then only in a subordinate and incidental capacity, but my recollection is that, depending on the com-
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position of the Cabinet, it could provide very good viewing indeed, reaction shots and all.
My own feeling, quite frankly, is that television viewers see just about enough of us as it is. Some would say too much. It is well known that any politician, from the Front Benches backwards, would jump at any opportunity to appear on television and be bully-ragged and cross-examined by television pundits and by political interviewers. Politicians will do anything to get on the "box". And quite right too. This, I think, is much the best way for the viewing public to get their politics presented to them. If I thought that by looking in at a few selected shots of our proceedings they would get anything like as fair and balanced a view of politics as they do already, I should vote for the Motion, but, quite frankly, I do not.
I do not believe that, practically speaking, television is capable of producing a really fair, balanced and comprehensive picture of our proceedings and, what is more important, the workings of the House or the atmosphere which prevails here. And to give the viewing public anything less than that would in my view, be very dangerous indeed. I am also, whatever anyone may say, afraid of the impact which television would have on this House. One has only to watch or go to a party conference to see the effect it has on them. Inevitably, I believe, it would have a powerful and not at all salutary effect on our proceedings. Surely we in this House, of all places, should be talking to each other and not talking to the television? But that is what inevitably would happen once our proceedings were televised—it is only human nature. I liked the phrase used by the right hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) when he talked of struggling after a liability. That is exactly what we should be doing if we approved the Motion. And it would be a liability that would stay with us.
6.58 p.m.
Mr. Norman St. John-Stevas: I agree with the sentiments and principles put forward by the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot). Excellent as his arguments were and good as his presentation was, it is the fact that the hon. Member is in favour of the Motion which perhaps carries the greatest

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weight of all, because, although one might criticise the hon. Member on a variety of grounds, no one could criticise him on the ground that he does not care about this House. I comment on only one point which he made. He said that the Daily Mail had ceased to report Parliament. I took that as an arcane and cryptic tribute to the fact that Mr. Andrew Alexander has recently been translated from the Daily Telegraph to the Daily Mail to write those colour pieces which sometimes are more coloured by the views of the observer than by anything which has taken place in the Chamber.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Batsford) on what I thought was a masterly presentation of the case. I thought that the right hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) also made an extremely effective speech, marred only by one infelicity when he compared the contribution which was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, South with that made some years ago by the right hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman). My mind goes back to that debate and I recall that it was the speech of the right hon. Member for Coventry, East in support of the proposition that did more than anything else to bring about its defeat. I noted also, for the record, the right hon. Gentleman's reproach against his right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East that he held the same views today as he did six years ago. That must be the first time that particular reproach has been levelled against the right hon. Gentleman.
It is no exaggeration to say that the decision which we are to take today is as important as any decision which the House has had to take in recent years. I am sure that everyone, whatever may be his views on the merits of the proposition before us, is actuated only by the one desire—the Whips are off in this debate, it is a free debate—to do what is best for the House of Commons and for the country. It is not a party matter. The most odd alliances could be formed out of this debate.
I am delighted that the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benny, who is not here today, is in favour of televising the House. At least, if we
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are not able to have anything to read, we shall have something to view. I often wonder where the joint activities of Lord Longford and the right hon. Gentleman will lead us, and what will be left for us to read, except, perhaps, Chicks Own.
The case for televising the House is simple and cogent. I was struck by something said by my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maude), who has the most subtle and corrosive intellect in the House. Were there such an institution as Anglican Jesuits, he would have a high claim to be superior-general of that Order. My hon. Friend, with his subtle and searching mind, asked the Question which really is the nub of the issue: What does the House of Commons gain by admitting the television cameras into our proceedings?
I answer in this way. In an era when television has, for better or for worse, become the principal means of mass communication, we exclude the television cameras only at immense cost to ourselves, for only by using television can we restore to the Commons that place from which it has undoubtedly slipped, the place which it had over the centuries as the forum of the nation.
My hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon talked about the functions of the House, but in an extremely narrow way. He talked of those functions as being technical in character. He talked, in effect, about the legislative function of the House, which is but one function only. It was Walter Bagehot—if I may dare to mention that great man's name—who pointed out that the principal function of the House of Commons was an expressive and informing function, to inform the nation on the great political issues of the day. I part company entirely from my hon. Friend—I cannot believe that he means it seriously—when he says that the discharge of that function is confined to the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition and the other persons who decorate our Front Benches.
Mr. Maude: I did not say that. I said that it was not the business of the House of Commons to speak directly to the people from this Chamber through the medium of television cameras or in any other way. When my hon. Friend says that we cannot restore the lost influence—if it be lost—of this Chamber except by

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admitting the television cameras, will he tell me of any institution in this country which television has either advanced or made more reputable?—our universities, for example?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: In my view the the effect of television on the life of the country has been much more beneficial than harmful. We have a public better informed about politics, for example, than we have ever had in the past. It has succeeded in raising the standard of appreciation of our political life and a whole range of other subjects to a level never before seen in our history.
The argument for admitting the television cameras is all the more powerful because of the gap which undoubtedly exists, and is widening, between the legislature and those for whom we are elected to legislate. I am not of that pessimistic school which looks back to the good old days when the House of Commons was something better than it is today. But we ignore the various forms of protest at our peril. We ignore the clamour for participation also at our own risk, for unless we find a positive means of filling this gap we shall face a situation in which the whole foundations of the democratic State as we have known it will be threatened. So let us make this positive and constructive step and use the new medium which is available to us.
Not only the nation but the House of Commons as an institution will benefit. I believe that everyone in it will benefit. This is true of Ministers and Shadow Ministers. They will be able to communicate much more freely; they will not be subjected to what the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale referred to as one of the humiliations of being interrogated by people who have nothing to do with the elected Chamber of the people.
I believe that back benchers will be even greater beneficiaries, because after a century of centralising and of increasing the authority and power of the Government they will have this new means of communication with the people. It will be open to every back bencher, so that we shall no longer have a handful of back benchers who are more equal than others and who have access to television, but the right will be the right of
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every backbencher, subject only to one thing, his choice in exercising it in the Chamber.
Mr. Nigel Spearing: The hon. Member is emphasising a point already made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), but will he explain how he reconciles what he is now saying with the practicalities of television, which he knows a bit about? How can that opportunity be exercised when, even at the best so far suggested, about eight hours of proceedings in the House—let alone proceedings in Committee—would be shown in a half-hour summary later in the evening?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I hope that I shall be permitted to make my speech in my own way. It has a structure which may eventually become apparent. I wish to deal with the principle first and then come to the technical consideration which the hon. Gentleman raises.
It has been—curiously enough—a matter of reproach during the debate that the House of Commons is, or might be, "good viewing" and that somehow we would be demeaned if we were able to make a dramatic impact upon the country. I ask hon. Members to look around them. The whole Chamber is designed for dramatic impact. It is made for confrontation. The whole design in which we speak and the framework in which we move is shaped to make the greatest possible impact on the nation as a whole.
Without doubt the Commons will be very good viewing. There is something to view. There are people here with a great deal of dramatic talent. I think for example of my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward). She conveys something of the essence of her contributions through the cold print of HANSARD, but the impact which she makes through HANSARD is nothing to the impact which she would make, and rightly make, if the nation were able to see her in full pursuit of a Minister in defence of her beloved North-East.
It does not seem to me to be any reproach to the House that people will want to see it in action. It was Matthew Arnold who said that a work of art has two functions, to instruct and to entertain. Those two functions can be fulfilled together.
Mr. Faulds: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: No, I am sorry. I do not wish to hold up the debate.
Mr. Faulds: It is a valid point, Norman.
Mr. Marcus Lipton: Come on, give way, as one actor to another.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: Very well.
Mr. Norman Tebbit: There we see the influence of television.
Mr. Faulds: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has some feeling for the professional proprieties. The very reference which he has made to his hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) pinpoints the danger of the operation which we may undertake. It is the character actors in the House who will get the attention of television and, oddly enough, being one of the best character actors in the House myself, I do not want to see television in this place.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I have some sympathy with the thesis advanced from the point of view of the hon. Member for Smethwick (Mr. Faulds), but if Members are characters—and there are many characters in the House—it is right that the nation should see those characters and that they should be able to communicate. If a Member is a tame grey steam engine, he may end up on the Front Bench, but if he is a character, he very well may not. Why should not the characters also have their day?
It is the clash and conflict in the House of Commons that would make it, such compulsive viewing. People would want to see the House of Commons and as they saw it and became interested in it, they would understand it more and more. It has drama, it has conflict, it has a changing cast of characters. After all, Members die—the cardinal mistake in politics is to die, for in politics one is never finished until one is dead. I know that if I dropped dead tomorrow—which Heaven forfend—after a decent interval—say 24 hours—300 or 400 people would be applying for one's seat. In this situation one need never fear that the House of Commons would bore the public.
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I have listened with great care to the important objections to admitting television into the House. It is not a clear-cut issue. It is an issue in which the arguments are finely balanced. I believe that on the whole the advantages in letting the television cameras in outweigh the disadvantages, but one has to consider the objections.
First, it has been said that television would destroy the intimate character of the House; the special and precious entity that it constitutes. That is a matter of opinion; it cannot be a matter of fact. If I believed that opinion to be correct, I should certainly not advocate even the nose of a television camera coming into the House. But we cannot resolve that question until we have seen the effects of the experiment.
That fear—a very right and proper fear for anyone who cares for the Commons—has nothing to do with the constitutional fallacy that the House of Commons somehow exists for itself, that we exist to talk to each other and to no one else. We exist as a club, certainly, a very special club, but a club which exists not for its own sake but to serve the nation. That was the point made by the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) who got so worked up and annoyed with his right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West. The hon. Member became so furious that I thought at one moment that he had mistaken his right hon. Friend for a member of the Royal Family!
The constitutional fallacy appeared in the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon when he spoke in terms of great horror at the change in our style of debates. Of course the style of our debates would change. Styles always have changed and they always will. I wondered whether my hon. Friend was representing the Royal Shakespeare Company in his constituency, or the D'Oyly Carte Company.
It is no good addressing the House today in the style of Gladstone, it was no good Gladstone addressing the House in the style of Pitt and it was no good Pitt addressing the House in the style of Bolingbroke. The only place in which there is a total preservation of style is the graveyard. There indeed the style is fixed. If an institution is alive, one of

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the signs of its being so is that it changes and adapts itself to the century in which it happens to be.
A second criticism concerned playing to the gallery. Those Members who would play to the gallery are doing it already. One must distinguish between playing to the gallery, which I take to mean looking for cheap applause for ill-thought-out and inapt arguments, and those who believe that they must, through the House and its Members, address the nation as a whole. One is merely playacting and the other is fulfilling what is an honourable calling.
The ultimate sanction of playing to the gallery—and no doubt there will be those who will do so—remains the same with or without the television cameras. If Members play to the gallery, they achieve only one thing—they lose the esteem of their fellow Members. That is a sanction more effective than anything that could be put on paper to restrict the access of the cameras or in the editing of programmes once the cameras were moving.
The third objection with which I wish to deal and which is important is that through the televising of our proceedings people outside would get a distorted view of the Commons. This objection was put by my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon. They do not have any view of the Commons at the moment. I do not believe that anyone who follows politics with any closeness or any intelligence will think that the entire sum of parliamentary activity is carried on within this Chamber alone. I think that they will realise, in future as in the past, that the secret of being a successful Member of Parliament is balance.
We all know what calls are made upon our time and if a Member spends his time in the Chamber and neglects his constituency, in the end he will lose both constituency and Chamber. That is the reality of the matter. The only effect that may be safely prophesied is that the introduction of television cameras will effect an improvement in parliamentary manners, and perhaps we shall see that we have passed the high tide of rowdyism and intolerance which, unfortunately, has risen to a new peak in recent years.
I have been dealing with the principle of why. The question of how is sub-
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sidiary and may be left to technologists and Ministers and others. But the point must be made—and this answers the question of the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Spearing)—that it is only an edited version of our proceedings that is a practical proposition. We could not have, as has been advocated, a continuous transmission of the proceedings of the Scottish Grand Committee. Nobody would look at that and I doubt whether even in Scotland that would hold the viewers enthralled for more than a minimal time.
That means that there would be a heavy responsibility of those who had to edit, but those responsibilities would be exercised subject to the watchful eye of the House of Commons. If those responsibilities were not adequately discharged, the House would be the first to intervene.
An edited version should cover not only the Chamber but, in due course, Committees upstairs, the Committees mentioned by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Shettleston (Sir M. Galpern), Committees on some of which I have served—the Abortion Committee, the Divorce Committee and so on. Those Committees have great interest. The hon. Member seemed to imply that I served on them to gain some form of publicity. I admit that I have never been a believer in doing good deeds by stealth. I served on those Committees because they interested me, because they were dealing with Private Members' Bills. I am not a member of the Monday Club, but I am a member of a more distinguished club—the "Friday Club".
Mr. Hugh Jenkins: On a point of order. Would it be in order to remind the hon. Member that although he has been speaking most interestingly and entertaininly, he has been doing so for 25 minutes?
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I am about to finish. That intervention has delayed me for a few seconds more.
One heard the reproach levelled in this debate that television would result in Committees being depleted and this Chamber being filled once again. Committees have practically killed the House of Commons. A move away from Committees and back towards the Chamber would be a move in very much the right direction. It would increase the prestige of Parliament, not diminish it.

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Ultimately all these questions can be decided only after we have seen what an experiment produces. Therefore, I hope that the House will allow the Motion to go forward so that, after the experimental period, we shall be able to take a decision in this House not on dogma or prejudices of any kind, which we all share in different ways, but on the facts and experience as we shall know them. Let us give ourselves the chance to have this experience.
7.21 p.m.
Mr. Joseph Ashton: I will try to be reasonably brief because so many hon. Members want to speak.
Next week I shall have been a Member of this House for four years. When I came here I was a fervent supporter of its being televised. My opinion has been drastically changed since.
I will list a few of the incidents which I have witnessed in this Chamber during that time. I saw an hon. Member who represents a Kent constituency walk into the Chamber during a speech by the Prime Minister and start to eat apples. He said that he started eating apples and ruined the Prime Minister's speech on a very important occasion because he wanted to draw attention to the plight of the apple-growers in Kent. This afternoon, and I apologise to the Chair for doing it, I have been holding up signs such as "Where is Ted" to show how a debate can be reduced to a ludicrous level in an attempt to hog the attention of the cameras and ruin the purpose of this House. I apologise to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for holding up the signs, but it was one way of making my point. I intend to make a serious speech. The hon. Member who walked in eating apples was probably driven to distraction because there was no opportunity of raising the issue, about which he felt deeply, in the Press or in the House.
I felt the same way earlier this year when 5,000 miners in my constituency were on strike. I was not called to speak in this Chamber although we debated the coal situation on four successive days. I accepted that. It is one of the hazards of being here. But if those debates had been televised, obviously my constituents would have been wondering what I was doing to earn my £85 a week. Anybody switching
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on the television now and looking at those benches would probably say "Look at them, £85 a week! Where are they? Why do we pay them that sort of money?"
People would listen to some of the speeches in this Chamber and within five minutes or so would switch over to "Coronation Street" or "Top of the Pops". I should not blame them. Let us face it. About 90 per cent. of the time speeches in this place are so dull that we do not listen to them. We can read them in HANSARD the day after in half an hour in any case.
I have seen an hon. Member raise a row about free snuff being given out at the entrance. Somebody else who had a snuff factory in his constituency raised a point of order in the House because he wanted publicity for that snuff factory.
I once saw an hon. Member try to bring two chickens in a little cage into this Chamber for a debate on cruelty. He got his picture on the back page of the Daily Mirror the day after. He was refused permission to bring in the two chickens. I am sure that if the television cameras had been here we would have had more of that sort of thing taking place.
One hon. Member comes in a white suit. I do not want to malign him in any way, because he is not present, but I have heard it rumoured that he is a sponsored Member of Parliament or something to do with the textile industry.
This is a magnificent place for gaining publicity for any cause under the sun. Some hon. Members have spoken in this Chamber because, I am absolutely certain, they were being paid by outside business interests to push those interests.
We have suggested that there should be a list of Members of Parliament who receive money from certain businesses and that they should declare their interests, but they do not always do so. I will declare mine. The Draughtsmen's and Allied Technicians' Association, my union, pays 50 per cent. of my agent's salary. I would say that on television and put it in my election address. Not everybody here will do the same.
How is the public to know, when an hon. Member defends the action of the Distillers Company, that he is not being

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paid by the Distillers Company to fight their case on thalidomide? How is the public to know, when an hon. Member defends a drug company in his constituency, that the company is not paying him to do it? We do not have a compulsory register of Members' interests, but many hon. Members take retainers and push the interests of outside firms, businesses and causes. Some of those causes are very good. They range from charitable causes onwards. But how is a television viewer to know?
It is all very well saying that we can educate the public concerning the empty benches in this Chamber. However, the commentator cannot repeat every 10 minutes that the reason the benches were empty at six o'clock this evening was that the Parliamentary Labour Party was meeting upstairs. The 1922 Committee also meets upstairs at that time. If that was not explained to the television viewer he would probably switch on for 10 minutes and say "Look, £85 a week and not 20 of them there". There are 50 million potential viewers. When they turn on their sets for five or 10 minutes during the afternoon we cannot have commentators explaining all the time—we cannot educate the public all the time—that the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries is sitting upstairs, that there are four other Committees sitting, that Members have to visit constituencies, that some are chasing Ministers, have letters to answer and speeches to prepare, that upstairs there are 15 study groups considering the environment, the ports, and so on, and that Members have to study the business that is taking place every day. The public will believe what they see. One picture is worth 1,000 words. The public will look at these benches and make certain assumptions. We will not be able to stop that.
Mr. Whitehead: Does my hon. Friend agree that the public can read about these things in papers like the Daily Mirror which constantly snipe at the House and point out that very few Members are present? What people do not read in these papers is an account of the Committees at work. What we want is Committees televised too, so that the public which sees the House knows about the work of the Committees also.
Mr. Ashton: Local newspapers report Committee proceedings but television will not. It is an instant picture. The man at the party conference who talked about the dung beetle received sensationalism in every newscast.
There are times in this Chamber when people throw leaflets from the Gallery. We take no notice. We are used to it. People stand up and shout "Down with so-and-so", or "Good old so-and-so." We ignore all that. What will happen in the Gallery when the cameras are here? The man who threw the CS bomb down into the Chamber received massive publicity for the cause he thought he was pushing.
Mr. Ron Lewis: Without television.
Mr. Ashton: Exactly. What sort of publicity would he get with television? We shall get every homeless family in the country going into the Gallery and shouting "Find us a house" or something like that when the Housing Minister speaks. They may be entitled to do that.
One of the greatest deterrents to politics is a protest which is shown in television where the trade union leader is always shown on a box talking down a mike in a regional accent to his brothers and there is a crowd behind him pushing and shoving, chanting and marching through the streets. Inevitably the cameras zoom in on a man shaking his fist. Hon. Members in this Chamber have shaken their fists and advocated violence. I should not like to see that on television. If one hon. Member does something and it is shown on television, we are all classed in the same way. People will say "They are all a bunch of mugs. There is nothing between any of them."
The biggest thing we are fighting in politics is apathy. I have seen it in local councils. We are fighting apathy all the time. I am almost certain that if we let the cameras in we shall see the apathy.
Let us look at some things which have suffered with the advent of television. Since television came in cinemas have virtually vanished. The theatre has suffered because of television. About 15 years ago there used to be "shorts" of three or four minutes duration covering football. I used to like them. They have

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now grown to mammoth proportions. Consequently gates are falling. The football authorities are beginning to wish they had never seen television. There is a surfeit of it. There is now "Goal of the month" and such things which one repeated three or four times a week.
There could be a show called "Row of the Day". It could start off with the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Miss Devlin) going across and grabbing the Home Secretary, pulling out his hair because she was not called to speak. In ten years we shall have all the show biz razmataz with the canned laughter and all that sort of thing.
Let us consider something which is similar to politics—religion—[Interruption.] There is nothing funny about this because politics and particularly socialism happen to be my religion. Look at what has happened to religion since television took a hold of it. It has degenerated into "Stars on Sunday" with Shirley Bassey singing "Ave Maria" and Tom Jones singing "Land of Hope and Glory". That is show business. Churches in my constituency have given up evening services because of the competition from the "Forsyte Saga" and they now open on Sunday afternoons. Look at the position of horse-racing. No one goes to it because it is on television. Rugby League has been killed stone dead.
The way that television handles politics at the moment has done politics a great deal of good. I relish seeing the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. JohnStevas) on television. In five minutes he is decisive and he gets his point across. He is there with someone from this side of the House, and it is good. But he has just made a 25-minute speech in here that he could have made in four minutes.
If we reduce this to its basic principles, who else in this country would agree to have a camera pointed at them at their place of work all day long? Everyone would walk out on strike. They would say, "We are not having that snooping eye looking over our shoulders". I do not mind telling my constituents what I am doing. I will clock in and fill in a time chart with pleasure. But I resent the idea, perhaps because, as one of my hon. Friends said, we have characters in the House. The newspapers cannot print the four-letter words but television can
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soon broadcast them if they are shouted out.
The only reason that television cameras are wanted in the Chamber is vanity. We would all like to see ourselves on the box and to know that people were hanging on to our every word. But people are very sensible when it comes to politics. They know the important issues and they are satisfied with the interviews on "Panorama" or "World in Action". I do not believe that they want to watch the party conferences or the TUC conference all day and every day, and in the same way I do not believe they want to watch Parliament. It is all very well to say that a poll has been in favour of televising Parliament, but who asked for the poll? It was not the public.
I intend to vote against the Motion tonight because I think it would be derogatory to Parliament to introduce television. We shall have the evils of sponsorship, the protestors from the public gallery and the show-offs and I do not want to see politics degenerating in the same way as that in which I have seen religion and sport degenerate after going on to television.
7.34 p.m.
Mr. David Crouch: If the television cameras had been here tonight what we have seen and heard would have been classed as "good television". For most of the debate almost 100 Members have been present all the time. The last time we debated the subject one hon. Member took a count and said that not enough interest was being shown in the debate because only 72 Members were present. The attendance has been good because the performances have been good.
I did not agree with the speech of the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton). His argument was sincere, though, and there was an awful lot to it. I declare quite openly that I go along with the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) and not with my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-onAvon (Mr. Maude). They both have a radically different concept of what the House of Commons is about.
I do not believe the House of Commons is a place where we principally try to speak to our constituents. When we

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do we usually make a boring speech and empty the Chamber. The House of Commons is a place where we debate and hope that our arguments will perhaps reach a wider audience. I have gained the impression during the debate that those who oppose the concept of televising the House do so because they are afraid of changing its atmosphere and its character. Surely this point has been answered many times by my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) and by the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale who have explained that the House is a constantly changing place. Maybe if we introduce television cameras the House will not only change but will change quickly. But why should we think that it will change for the worse?
I do not agree with the hon. Member for Bassetlaw that we shall have an outbreak of ridiculous characters. In this House we do not speak to the television camera but to each other. An hon. Member speaks in front of men who can criticise him. This is the most critical assembly, the most critical audience in the world. I do not want to make a fool of myself either in front of the camera or in front of other hon. Members. But we have all done it at times, we have all made a hash of a supplementary question and we have all delivered a boring speech and bored the pants off the House at some time. We have all made such mistakes and the television camera would pick them up. But I am not afraid of the television camera picking up the mistakes, the sparsely occupied benches or my dozing in the afternoon. I am not afraid of the camera not even finding me here and of my being conspicuous by my absence. That is the House of Commons. Let the public see what the House of Commons is like—warts and all.
Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: The hon. Member has put his finger on it. I do not mind the public seeing us as we are, warts and all. But I do not want the public to see only the warts and for that to be represented as Parliament. The question of the editorial balance and the editorial control is involved.
Mr. Crouch: I accept the hon. Member's point and it has stopped me in my tracks. May we look for a moment at the reporting of Parliament by the BBC
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in "Today in Parliament". In 15 minutes every night, repeated every morning, are the contents of a six-hour debate and the BBC have had very few complaints about lack of impartiality in the reporting. In those 15 minutes they usually manage to cover about half the speakers who have taken part.
I know that hon. Members feel their gems of oratory and their most telling points are omitted, but the broader spectrum of the debate is covered. The BBC does not pick on every little incident of character acting that might make it good television or good radio broadcasting. They are instead achieving in a quarter of an hour what I believe to be a good report of the whole substance of the debate. The BBC is doing so by means of an editorial judgment. Why should not we allow the television camera to attempt to do the same? The time has come when we must do so. Not to do so, to decide today to refuse entry to the cameras, would be for the House to turn its back on the reality of what is happening in society today.
I believe that we are turning our back on the reality of communication and how people want to receive communication today. I believe that the public are greatly interested in our activities in the House, and in the voting Lobbies. It is a pity, and we are the poorer for the fact, that the public are not sufficiently interested in the argument and debate which go on before we take our place in the Lobby. It is because we have denied them for so long this opportunity to see how we conduct debates in this greatest assembly, this greatest debating chamber in the world, that there is a decline in the interest in this place.
The right hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman) has written recently that there is a decline in the interest in this Chamber by Members themselves, that at about tea-time, when the two Front Bench speakers have sat down, the Chamber empties and the tea room, smoking room and party committee rooms begin to be filled. He is right. Members tend to come back into the Chamber at nine o'clock when the Front Bench speakers are up, but even then less and less are the benches crowded, because there is less and less emphasis on this Chamber in the whole of the Houses of Parliament. That is not only felt by

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Members but is strongly felt by people outside.
There is another thing which takes Members out of the Chamber. At eight o'clock on Monday night if the leader of the Opposition or the Prime Minister should be on "Panorama" or "World in Action" the most crowded rooms in the House are the rooms with television sets. That is to get the emphasis wrong, and that is what I am so sad about. I want to see Members returning to this Chamber, with all the possibilities and dangers that have been properly suggested today.
I respect very much what the hon. Member for Bassetlaw said might happen, and what has been said by those others who are against the proposal. I want to take the risk, the risk only of an experiment. I plead with the House not to turn its back this time on the opportunity to bring the centre of gravity of Parliament back to where it belongs—in this Chamber. I want to involve the public. We are talking in this monastic-like place, cloistered, separated from the world outside. I ignore the Press gallery. I was once told that the best bench to find in the Chamber was the one where I could be seen by both the Press gallery and the public gallery. For some reason, I happen to be standing in just such a place.
As we debate and vote tonight, I want us to think that there is a third force outside, the public. Let us give the public a chance to take part in the experiment, which is a public broadcasting experiment. We must not deny them the opportunity to see what we, their paid servants, do on their behalf. If they have that opportunity, I am not afraid if they do not see me here. I am prepared to tell them what other things I was doing, and thus to enlarge their knowledge of the whole activity of myself and all other Members of Parliament. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Shettleston (Sir M. Galpern) could tell his constituents that he is on Mr. Speaker's Panel and a very valued and distinguished member he is. I hope that his constituents will recognise that.
We have much to preserve in Parliament. We know in the privacy of this great cloister what a remarkable place Parliament is. We know that we create
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the atmosphere. No architect created it. We create it as we live, work and talk here; we create it by our debates, not just by our voting. Our debates can be both fascinating and famous. This place can be capable of great dignity or great derision. There can be expressed in this House sincerity or deceit. There can be revelations; there may be refutations. This is the place where we are sent to speak, and where we are sent also to listen, argue and to debate.
Are we now to deny that there is the means of communication today to allow the public to see us doing these fascinating things? This is a place where every Member, from the Prime Minister to the most remote back bencher, has to be on his toes when he is speaking. I do not believe that opportunities will be taken to fool about any more than we do today. Of course, there will be some such instances.
Six years ago I was convinced that we should televise the House. I listened to the debate on the matter as a new Member who had loved and admired the House all my life and had quickly grown attached to it as a Member of it. As the debate proceeded and I heard the arguments go to and fro I found myself being persuaded that it was too precious a jewel in our democratic treasury to risk losing by exposing it to the television cameras. It was my noble Friend the present Lord Chancellor who swung my views that day. There is perhaps no greater defender or lover of this democratic centre of the democratic world than the Lord Chancellor, and his speech then moved me not to take the risk.
After six years, I feel certain that I was wrong then. I am in no doubt that as a politician I, and I hope a majority of Members present, am prepared to take the risk and so enable the House to make greater communication with its constituents.
7.47 p.m.
Mr. Hugh Jenkins: I believe that democracy is about communication and that the most important form of communication is the communication between those who elect and those who are elected. Therefore, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) said something with which I profoundly agreed when he said that we

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must move with our times. But what he failed to do was just that, taking the view that what was good enough in the past was all right for today. The whole history of the democratic process is in the use of means of communication as populations have increased and society has become more complex. The city state was one of personal communication between a few people and the leader.
The arguments which have been put forward today against the proposed development are the same arguments, mutatis mutandis, as were used against the introduction of Press reporting of Parliament. I have been looking up some of those arguments. It is astonishing how close today's arguments are to those presented then. Parliament was then a sort of secret society, and there was great resentment against the idea that the people should know anything about what they did. It was Burkeism taken to its absurd point, where the Member, once elected, is by himself, with nothing to do with anybody else for five years. That sort of democracy was popular in those days, but we ought to have got out of that way of thinking.
Yet the attitude that the electorate must be kept away and not allowed to know what we do, because if they get to know the truth they will lose faith in the system, is still here. I am sorry that in four short years my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) has become so corrupted as to lose faith in the intelligence of his constituents. That is a sad state of affairs. I hope that today's debate and the debate in which he will no doubt appear on television—he has himself become a television personality of considerable magnitude in the past few days—
Mr. William Hamilton: That is why my hon. Friend the Member for Basset-law (Mr. Ashton) does not want it in the House.
Mr. Jenkins: —will convince him that we should televise our procedings. My hon. Friend is a personality not only on television but in the House. Some hon. Members appear on television more than others.
The real question is, will the situation change very much if television cameras enter the House? I do not think so. But
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if we were going to decide tonight irrevocably once and for all that we should have television in the Chamber for good, I should be in great difficulty to know how to vote. If I knew that I could not think again, I should be in grave doubt. But I do not believe that the House is incapable of changing its mind. There will be another debate in which we shall be able to think the whole thing over in the light of what happens during the experiment. So why do hon. Members take the view that we must not even see what happens, that we must not even test how strong the lights are, that we must not even find out whether the cameras do pull people in, that we must not subject ourselves, our public, or the members of our parties to the experience of seeing us on television, that we are frightened even to put the matter to a three-weeks test? Surely, we are not so pusillanimous as that?
Therefore, I take the view that it is a real test, but I think that on balance it is likely that in the end of it, even those who are now doubtful—I respect their doubts and to some extent share them—will be persuaded. I pulled my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw's leg a bit, but I do not want him to think that I do not understand thoroughly his doubt about the nature of television as it is now.
I address myself to his objections because they are real and proper. I believe that when they are examined they will be found to be objections to the nature of our media today rather than to televising Parliament. I think that my hon. Friend would say, "If I could rely on a medium, if we had media which I could trust, if we had the sort of programme which would fully examine the rôle of a Member of Parliament—that would turn to his role as a member of a party, would consider him in his office dictating and answering the telephone, and in his constituency, a medium which would educate the public, I would be all in favour of it." What he is saying is that he does not trust the media, and I think that he is right to say that.
But I believe that by televising Parliament we shall educate not only ourselves and the public but also the media, that we shall improve the media. With my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), I believe that

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the consequences of televising the House will be to bring about an improvement in Parliamentary reporting in the Press. I believe that to be particularly true of the local Press. No doubt some hon. Members enjoy satisfactory relationships with the local Press and are reported will in their local papers. Not all of us enjoy that. We had a very large rally in Roehampton about a fortnight ago which was addressed by hon. Friends the Members for Ebbw Vale and Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor). We have two local papers. One ignored it completely and the other misreported it.
Some of us do not have the opportunity to address ourselves fully to our constituents. I believe that the more communication we in the House can have with our people, not only our own constituents but the whole country, the greater do we extend the processes of democracy, just as was done when printing became available and the newspapers began to appear on the streets. Indeed, the development of the modern Press is the result of parliamentary reporting. If there had not been the struggle to report Parliament the development of the modern Press would not have taken place. The fact is that the Press has run away from its original rôle, which was firstly the reporting of Parliament, helping to create a modern democracy in which people could participate . In those days there was no full franchise and the development of the modern newspaper and of a fully franchised democracy have gone together. The Press has become corrupt since then, but that has nothing to do with democracy; it has to do with capitalism. My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw really knows that at heart, and that is what he is complaining about. My hon. Friend is complaining against the system under which newspapers are sold purely on questions of circulation and advertising. These are the factors which have corrupted the nature of the Press and therefore what it publishes.
But do we in these circumstances say that we must run away and not allow the new medium of television in on our proceedings? Not at all. We must allow it to happen; we must also accept that there will be a certain amount of misreporting. But as my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale has pointed out,
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we have the power to create safeguards. I differ somewhat from my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, North (Mr. Whitehead) as to the precise nature of such safeguards. He thinks that there should be a parliamentary broadcasting unit. I think that a parliamentary committee in close touch with the media would be sufficient. But these are matters of detail and could be satisfactorily ironed out.
I hope that tonight the House will decide, despite all the difficulties and problems, which I do not underestimate, to recognise that we cannot afford to ignore the fact that communication is fundamental to the democratic process and that we must use what is now the most popular means of our time. My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw talked of the effect of the media on various other forms of entertainment. But he cannot avoid the fact that television is the main form of communication with the people of our country and that we must fully accept it, go along with it, and try to improve it. That should be our role—not shrinking back and living in the past. I hope that in 1972 we shall reverse the error made by a one-vote majority six years ago and decide on this experiment. Whatever the outcome of the experiment may be, we should do it. Let us try it out.
7.57 p.m.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: All the views expressed in this debate flow from instinct. Whether one is for or against the experiment, the reaction is instinctive. Having got our instincts, our hunch, we produce various arguments in support. It is not a question of rabid differences of view based upon clear fact or of not having the right views, or of not having a good view of one's colleagues. It is a matter of instinct.
My instinct is against the experiment. I think that it would be detrimental to Parliament and to the people's view of Parliament. Indeed, if I were practical, perhaps I would add that it would be an infringement of the Trade Descriptions Act. If we brought cameras in here and tried to give the impression that the cameras were looking in on Parliament, we should be wrong. This Chamber is not Parliament. It is an ingredient of Parliament, but I doubt whether it is

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even the most important part of Parliament, although it is an essential part. The Parliament which one would pretend one was representing on the cameras is made up of committees and private discussions, of personal interviews and of visits to Ministers. This sometimes gives the impression from the Chamber that Parliament is being neglected by its Members, when the opposite is the truth.
Of course the televising of Parliament would interfere with the intimacy of exchange. I defy any ordinary person to be as natural before a camera as he would be without it—and that applies whether one is in one's own dining room or garden or here. I defy any normal person to be as free before a camera as he would be without it.
It has been suggested that televising our proceedings would help discussion. I believe that it would drive under cover the real discussion of the differences which exist. That has happened with local councils. I sat on a local council for about 16 years, when we did not allow the Press in for Committees. Then, in "the General Purposes Committee of that Council" there would be a difference of view, one would change one's mind in the light of argument and one was able to do so in the intimacy of a private meeting. Now the Press are allowed in at those meetings and too often a more rigid stance is taken; now the real discussion on local councils does not take place any longer in the council chamber but in the caucus meetings of various members before they go in. It is all cut and dried before they get into the chamber. If we had the television cameras in here, all the intimacy of exchange that remains would be driven out. We would be driving discussion in Parliament into hole-and-corner methods which used to take place and which would be to the detriment of Parliament.
Mr. William Hamilton: The hon. Gentleman is naïve.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: The hon. Gentleman must show some signs of tolerance. He is supposed to be a great democrat but he only wants to listen or read about himself. I am only suggesting that this is an instinctive reaction that we are experiencing and that my personal instinct
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is against the experiment. The instinct, like that of the hon. Member, is based on years of experience here, and we are all trying to put out points of view on record.
I believe that the loss of intimacy would be a dangerous thing. Nor need we have an experiment here to know what it is like. When the hon. Gentleman's namesake and I were in Canada last month we found that the proceedings of the provincial parliament of Nova Scotia are televised. Knowing that this Motion was to come before the House, he and I made some inquiries and discussed it with people there. They advised against the experiment. They said, "It makes us look juvenile and it is not in the best interests of our Chamber." I asked them why they did not stop it. They replied, "If we stop it at this stage it will give the appearance of our running away and of cowardice on our part, which is even worse than looking juvenile." I do not see why we have to have an experiment here when experiments have already been tried elsewhere, giving us every chance of knowing what it is all about.
My hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) always makes an interesting speech, interlaced with a certain amount of wit which is only sometimes out of place. He suggested that if we had cameras here, somehow it would end the interviews, which are sometimes unfair to Ministers and others. There is no suggestion that normal practices would not go on if the cameras were here. He also seemed to indicate, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maude), that we would have the cameras in only when great matters of moment and principle were being debated. He seemed to concede that the majority of the hours we spent discussing legislation and various details—when indeed, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon said, we are talking to one another—would not be on the screen.
That is not what I understand the Motion to say. As I understand it, the cameras would be here during the hours we were discussing legislation just as much as on the great days when those who are the ornaments of Parliament and are worth listening to as performers—I look at the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale

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(Mr. Michael Foot) when I say that—would be on the screen. But these are rare occasions. I do not think that the televising of such rare occasions would go far towards repairing the damage done by interfering with the intimacy of the majority of our discussions.
The shape and size of our Chamber reflect its life. It is not capable of seating every Member. The reason is clear and sound. It is recognised that most of our discussion is on intimate matters when usually few Members are present. It is small enough so as not to look stupid if only a small number of Members are present to carry on with the work. If, like other Chambers, we all had a desk with the intimate sort of work we usually have to do, it would be like discussing one's shopping list in St. Pancras Station. The Chamber allows intimacy of discussion among a few Members but equally, on big occasions with crowded steps, reflects the great occasion.
If we had the cameras in over the whole of our parliamentary proceedings, the result would be dull. It would interfere with our constituents' belief of what Parliament is. Consequently, it would interfere with the authority of Parliament, and I think it important that parliamentary authority should be maintained. I think that many people accept the edicts which come from Parliament, often uncomfortable and sometimes seemingly unfair, because their impression of Parliament is one which gives it a stature which they are prepared to accept.
If Parliament, composed as it is of ordinary people, were brought into the sitting rooms of viewers, with some of its Members looking dowdy and some not looking effective, it would interfere with some of the acceptance by the people of its decisions. I believe that now their imagination and belief of what Parliament is and from where those decisions come; helps acceptance of those edicts.
I believe that the trimmings and the crimson and the wigs of the judges make insignificant-looking men capable of giving judgment and leadership which is accepted but which would not be accepted to such a degree from people in lounge suits under the probing eye of a camera. I believe that the American courts stand less high in appeal and authority because they are conducted with the participants
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all dressed in lounge suits and a court robbed of its mystery.
This is something that the apparent truth of the camera would interfere with. I would not risk it, because it would be a bad thing. If it is right to make better and full and proper use of this great new medium of television, I would harness it to help Parliament without bringing it into Parliament. My plan would be to improve the outside television programmes which relate to politics. For example, I think that is a good thing that when a Minister has made a statement in the House he should go on television and talk about it. But that can be done without interfering with the general image and feeling of Parliament. I believe that we can obtain all the benefits which television can give without interfering with the separateness of Parliament.
I believe that it would be stupid and wrong to pass this Motion. I believe that we can have both the penny and the cake; we can retain the authority, the strength and the separateness and specialness of Parliament without putting it at this risk. Parliament is separate; it is different. It does not impress me that television has gone into the churches and all sorts of other places which at one time were looked upon as separate. They were not separate in the same sense that Parliament is separate.
It is only Parliament, and no other institution, which has the power over people's lives. No other institution has the power to pass laws which the nation and the individuals in it have to accept without question, otherwise they are not considered civilised in their general approach. We have to recognise Parliament as separate and to treat it as such. Let us use the television cameras on individuals. Let us when we can, go before the cameras to explain ourselves as Members of Parliament. But do not let us do it when there is even the slightest risk of undermining the value and strength and message that can come only from Parliament as a law-making institution. If there is that element of risk, we should not be doing our duty if we allowed this experiment. I suggest that there is indeed a real risk. No genuine benefits on balance would flow from the experiment. I believe and hope that we shall tonight give the same answer as we gave six years ago—that it is not acceptable.
8.9 p.m.
Mr. John Mendelson: As the hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) has not indicated that he intends to do anything this evening different from that which I am going to do, I hope that he will not think me discourteous if I do not refer to his speech and to the points he made. In the limited time available, I want to address myself mainly to my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), who has made a case, as we have seen, particularly among hon. Members on this side of the House but also among hon. Members opposite, and as usual he has found a ready response. There can be little doubt of that, however, much we may disagree. But I believe that he has made life easy for himself today, which is rather uncharacteristic of him.
My hon. Friend said several times, very effectively, that we cannot be satisfied with the present position. It is very difficult to disagree with that. That is what I mean when I say that my hon. Friend has made life easy for himself. But he was singularly lacking in addressing himself to the real problem before us, and that is the question, what if the remedy is worse than the disease? That is the real problem which faces the House before coming to a decision tonight, and that is the subject that we have to consider. In my submission, there are only two problems which face us tonight—first of all, the precise nature of the proposal, and secondly, the principle involved in the remedy which is suggested to us, and I want to confine myself to those two points.
First of all on the precise proposal. It is not legitimate for us to vote tonight in the belief that there might be certain developments which might happen later that would confine to the House control of what ultimately happens. I am only saying it is not legitimate because there is more than one point of view on this. I do not say that people who argue that are wholly wrong. I am merely submitting that they have no right to be so sure as they appear to be when speaking in this debate.
I pray in aid an article by the senior political correspondent of The Times who moves in circles of the people who put the proposals to the Government. We
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know that the managing director of Yorkshire Television was heading a committee of managing directors of various television companies and they put certain proposals to the Leader of the House some weeks ago. I think the Leader of the House might have given us a little more detail about that memorandum. He did not. If this is such an important decision that the House has to make, then the documentation before the House should be more complete than it has been. I am sure I carry my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale with me in advancing that argument—that documentation should be as complete as possible when the House is asked to make a decision.
It is my opinion that the chief political correspondent of The Times, in his article on Monday, 16th October last, was rather well informed, and that he knows what is going on in the circles which produced that memorandum for the right hon. Gentleman and which the House of Commons has not seen. I want to quote what the political correspondent of The Times writes of what might happen in the future. He says:
"Undoubtedly some of the ablest executives in television are going to press, once the cameras have breached the ramparts of Westminster, for a freedom of editorial and production freedom equal to that of the newspapers; and by a gradual erosion of the limits set upon them they will eventually get their way. It is to be hoped that they will. But they should not demand too much at the beginning."
That is his advice. This is what we see this afternoon—do not demand too much at the beginning. We on this side have always warned the House not to fall for such an early beginning but to be on our guard right away when a proposal is first introduced. Mr. David Wood goes on to advise us, and those executives to whom he has talked about what is going on, how to behave tactically this afternoon:
"It would be absurd, for instance, to kick against the likely decision that the House should itself make a complete television record of each day's proceedings, with the copyright vested in the Speaker or in a select committee. In that way, the Chamber and precincts would not be overrun with technicians and equipment as each regional television organisation. BBC as well as ITV, competed like newspapers for full facilities. And the copyright would arm the House with a sanction against those organisations, home or foreign, that flagrantly misused or corrupted the House's record. In

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turn, the House should come to a sensible decision about the freedom of television to make the fullest and quickest use of the videotape. Many back benchers are obsessed with the idea either of a parliamentary channel on which everything would go out from chaplain's prayers to Who goes home? ', or with a half-hour programme 'In Parliament Today ', on the model of the deservedly admired 15 minute radio programme."
He goes on to make some other suggestions. He says we are obsessed with wanting something which might be similar to the Today in Parliament "programme on the radio. What is the implication of that? The implication is that we in this House are a lot of silly fools if we believe that the television companies want to confine themselves to that kind of reporting. That is what the phrase "obsessed" in reality means. And the political correspondent of The Times is right. What is intended here is a decision which would mean that in the long run, on the argument of editorial freedom, it will be the television companies which will decide what they do in this House. That is the real argument which we have to consider tonight.
The second point I want to put in this connection concerns the principle which is involved. I would agree at once with those right hon. and hon. Members who have argued this evening that we cannot be too concerned about detailed impressions which might be made by hon. Members in the Chamber. I agree at once with my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) that we cannot base our decision upon considerations of that kind. I do not think it would stand up in any serious discussion that, because there might be incidents or because there might be bad speeches or because there might be publicity hunting—that merely because of that—we should say that it cannot be done. I accept that.
However, I believe there is a much more fundamental case against the Motion. It is the clash of the media. Television cannot be compared with any other kind of reporting, because of the particularly powerful nature which it implies. It is at the same time riveted to the proposition that it must keep the viewer in his seat. If they cannot do that, then they cannot do anything.
If I may give one slight, brief example, to the House, this was brought home to
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me about eight years ago when I did not have a decided view upon this matter. I was invited from Sheffield to go to Manchester by the producer of a programme called "Under Fire". There must be in the House some Members who remember that programme. About 30 of us were invited to take part in the programme. What I disliked about the programme was that he said," You must be cocksure in shouting whenever you want to. Interrupt quickly. Do not wait to be asked. Do not let an opportunity pass. "I was a little taken aback by that. I thought it might be that one would make a brief, quiet contribution to the discussion. However, he was the boss and everybody behaved as he encouraged them to do, and there was a lot of lively shouting going on.
After that, when the other 29 had gone, the producer asked me to stay behind and have a drink with him. He did not have time to finish his drink because after about 60 seconds he was told there was a telephone call for him. When he came back he was a little pale. It was his boss who was on the telephone. When I asked what was the matter he said that his boss had said, "The programme was not lively enough. It ought to be livened up".
That was the attitude to a programme which I considered to have been intolerable because there was so much shouting in it. But that was why that producer was a little pale. He was a little pale because—and my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, North (Mr. Whitehead), who has experience of television will understand—there was a very important advertising programme coming on immediately after "Under Fire" had finished, and a whole programme is judged, so far as a television boss is concerned, by only one consideration, and that is, "Are you keeping the listeners or viewers to their seats for when the next programme goes on?"—never mind about the programme being a report on Parliament. In the last eight years we have seen "Aunty BBC", having experienced the spirit of competition so much beloved by hon. Members opposite, being driven to the lowest depths—depths to which nobody who is an admirer of television, as at one time I was, would have expected them to fall.

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If bad money can be said to drive out good money, then we may well see that in time bad television will drive out good television. That is the reality of the position and this is what we must consider when we make our decision.
I wish to deal with a more important point. I have spoken about a clash of media. It is not the fault of individual executives in television companies in ITV or of staff in the BBC that they are pledged to the principle of having to be mainly an entertainment medium. To be effective on television, everything must be extremely dramatic. If it is not dramatic, it is of no use. This is the result of the medium, not the result of the misguided attitudes of television producers.
What will happen is that, as soon as the power is given, there will be a gradual erosion of whatever arrangements the House might try to make. In two years' time it may be said, "It is wrong of a committee of Members to censor each other and to select from each other's speeches what they feel should be reported. "They will say," In the interests of traditional freedom, this power must be handed over to editors who will not be Members of the House and who will therefore be unbiased. "I challenge any journalist in the House to say that when the time comes he will resist this argument.
Mr. Pannell: My hon. Friend might bear in mind another ingredient. There will be a great many teething troubles in the first two years; every small failure will be blamed on the amateurs and it will be said how much better and how much more perfect things would be if only the professionals were allowed to come in.
Mr. Mendelson: I come to my third point which relates to the situation in which the House will find itself and which we can now foresee. This place is a workshop. I know it has been argued that the actual work is done mainly in the Government Departments and that this place is like an assembly line which puts together the final pieces of the car. Even if one accepts this far too limited analysis of current practice in the House—and I do not accept it—ti must be said
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that most of the useful time in this House is spent in our acting as a workshop. That makes it completely different from many of the institutions which have been mentioned.
For the same reason I would be completely opposed to televising of the law courts. I would not wish to have it on my conscience that when a man is fighting an obviously bad case in a court, fighting for his rights, anybody involved in the process should be concerned with what in other countries is called "people's justice" just because people are looking over their shoulders while they are doing the job. This is why television must not be allowed in the courts. However bad the case, it is the essence of justice that people should not feel that they have to face any kind of popularity contest in the work they are doing.
I am arguing that the House of Commons, since it is a workshop, is in a similar position. I have sat in this House on many occasions when I have seen the late Sir Eric Errington change the whole course of a debate by addressing the House for six or seven minutes in his quiet, squeaky voice, a voice that did not carry very far. He did not make a dramatic speech and his speeches would never have been reported on television. But I have known those speeches change the whole nature of a debate and affect the vote and everything else. The workshop clashes with the media of television.
I am not worried about the Front Benches getting the lion's share and the back benches not being fully reported. We have to fight even now for proper reporting of our speeches by the Press, so the situation would not change very much. That is not so important. But what is important is that there might well be a gradual tendency to make everything dramatic and personal, far remote from the idea of providing better education of the people at large about the nature of the parliamentary process; in other words, the whole concept may move in the other direction. I regard this as the fundamental objection and I shall vote against this Motion.
8.26 p.m.
Mr. Peter Blaker: The hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson) has tried to make our

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hair stand on end by saying that eventually, however we start, it will be the television companies which will decide how these programmes will be presented. If I believed that to be the case, I would not support the proposal before the House. I believe it is the duty of the House to make sure that it is not the television companies but the House itself that decides what goes out. That is cardinal to the whole debate and I shall have more to say about this aspect a little later.
The hon. Member for Penistone, unusually for him, kicked through his own goal. He described a programme in which he had taken part where the emphasis was on the drama and the punch-up. If that is the way in which political programmes are presented at present, and I do not accept that is so, surely it is better that the public should be able to see the House in operation. This is the place where the real decisions are made. We are the forum of the nation and this House should be seen at work rather than that the public should have to rely on the sort of programmes which the hon. Member described.
The hon. Member then referred to the televising of the law courts and a little earlier in our debate the right hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) also referred to this. The right hon. Gentleman asked why, if we were to televise the House, we should stop there and not go on to televise the courts. Would it not make splendid drama, he asked, for the camera to use a zoom lens to show the face of the judge as he sentenced an accused person. That betrays a false assumption about the object of televising Parliament. As I see it, the emphasis will not be on the drama. The purpose of televising Parliament will be to strengthen democracy. [HON. MEMBERS:"Oh."] I shall return to that aspect in a moment, if I may be allowed to develop my argument. I suggest that the object will be that of strengthening democracy. We are here as representatives of our constituents and this is what distinguishes considerations affecting the law courts from those relating to Parliament.
I suspect that many of the arguments which have been advanced against this proposal are much the same as those that were advanced in the eighteenth century against the proposal that the pro-
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ceedings of the House could be reported in the Press. We cannot tell whether that is so because there is not a very good record to show what arguments were advanced in the House before the reporting of its proceedings was allowed in the Press. It seems astonishing to us 200 years later that the House could have denied to the major medium of communication, which in those days was the printed word, access to its own proceedings and communication between it and the public by means of that then most powerful medium.
It was only after the reporting of proceedings was allowed that Members of the House came to recognise the tremendous advantages for democracy, for the House and for the people in having the proceedings of the House reported. Erskine May was able to say in the 1860s that
"No circumstance in the history of our country—not even parliamentary reform—has done more for freedom and good government than the unfettered liberty of reporting."
Some years from now when the House is being televised, because I believe that the televising of its proceedings must surely come before long, we will be able to say the same sort of thing generally right across the country about the televising of its proceedings as Erskine May then said about the reporting of its proceedings in print.
Many of the arguments which have been advanced against this proposal have rested upon the assumption that those who will present the programmes concerned will be the same sort of people as those who are responsible for presenting the Alf Garnett show, the wrestling matches or the entertainment side of television. I do not believe that this will be so. The programmes will be presented—the House can insist on this—by responsible people who are used to presenting serious current affairs programmes. If the House owns the copyright in the tape which is made, it can insist on whatever conditions it thinks appropriate from the television companies or any other users.
That is also the answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls), who claimed that we would be misrepresented. Walpole in 1738, opposing the proposition that the proceedings of the House could be

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reported in the Press, said that it would be impossible to prevent misrepresentation if any reports were authorised. Hon. Members may or may not believe that we are misrepresented in the Press now, but I think we agree that there are higher reasons than that for recognising that the publication of reports of the proceedings of the House is of overwhelming importance.
One hon. Member asked where was the public demand. I believe that there is a tremendous unsatisfied public demand to see the proceedings of the House. A programme called "The Great Debate" was presented on BBC television in October last year. It concerned the Common Market and lasted for three hours. It had a panel of distinguished people who discussed the question of the Common Market in the studio. The panel included many distinguished Members of the House and others. At 9.30 p.m. when the programme began the audience was 5½ million. Half an hour after midnight, three hours later, the audience was still 3½ million. That demonstrates that on important issues there is a tremendous demand to see serious political discussion. Why did those people have to watch three hours of less authentic discussion in the studio? Why could they not see the real thing in the House?
The main argument for televising the proceedings of the House is that, if it does not happen, in the eyes of the people the House will become increasingly irrelevant. We should be the focus of the nation's political life, but we are becoming less and less so. The public feel that the people and the events that they see on television in their own drawing rooms are part of their life. One of the very few things they cannot see in their drawing rooms is the House of Commons. Why should we be practically the sole exception?
We should be forming and crystallising the nation's political opinions but we are being increasingly elbowed out of the way by the television pundits. The right hon. Member for Leeds, West quoted a letter from Mr. Malcolm Muggeridge. I understand Mr. Muggeridge's sentiments because one of the first consequences of the televising of our proceedings will be his devaluation as a television pundit. I say that with no disrespect to Mr.
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Muggeridge because he is a great entertainer and I know him personally.
We have a generation growing up in whose lives television is the dominating force, who cannot remember the time before television. It is the dominating force because it is so much more powerful than the written word. On it the young can see everything—entertainment, educational programmes, sport, shootings in Ulster, violent picketing—except Parliament. Will it be surprising, if this situation continues, if they grow up assuming that Parliament is one of the less important features of our national life? Will it be surprising, when they see violence around them without any antidote in the form of rational discussion, if they assume that violence is the natural way to get one's will?
This is the most powerful argument, which has become increasingly strong ever since we last debated this matter. All of us are worried about the growth of petrol-bomb democracy. The antidote, I believe, is to show the people in their drawing rooms what parliamentary democracy is all about.
8.37 p.m.
Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: I am sorry that Mr. Speaker was unable to accept my Amendment to the Motion because that robs me and, I suspect from the speeches I have heard, a number of other hon. Members from putting forward an alternative to the straight "Yes" or "No" in the Motion. It apparently reflects a chord of opinion, which has run through this debate, that it would be perfectly acceptable—certainly to me and, I suspect, to others—for Parliament to be televised if we could be sure that what the camera saw was what the viewer would see.
The real difficulty is the editorial control of what goes on to the screen in the home. In 1966 when this matter was last debated I was unable to get back in time to register my vote, but I would have voted for televising Parliament. I have altered my view since then because we now have an indication of what goes on in Parliament through the media, television and radio as well as newspapers. We would all agree—certainly I agree—with my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) that the product of that communication is

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very bad and is derogatory of Parliament as a whole.
It is bad because of the editorial slant that goes into the way in which the material is communicated to the public at large. Yet the editorial control which the television producer would have would be enormous even though more circumscribed than the editorial control within the Press. The producer has to reduce the whole of our debate into a very short compass indeed, mostly short snippets for news broadcasts, and at the best a half-hour programme at the end of the day, something like" Today in Parliament".
If that were to be done by someone genuinely in sympathy with what we had been talking about, aware of this forum being the centre of our democracy, someone who really wanted to communicate that to the public, who understood what was the nature of Parliament, who were the important people speaking in any debate—and they vary from debate to debate—who balanced the debate and who contributed to the movement of opinion across the Floor, I would accept that. It was for that reason I tabled the Amendment asking that the preparation and editing of the broadcasts should be controlled by a parliamentary television unit, comprised not of Members of Parliament but of people skilled in broadcasting but whose loyalty was to the House, who were officials of the House and under the control of the House.
It would not be censorship because there has to be an editor of some kind; it would be an editor whose loyalty was to transmitting faithfully to the public what went on in the debate. If we could get that I would vote for it. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, North (Mr. Whitehead) wants to get something like that, but that is not what the Motion says and it is not what this experiment will be about. That was made plain by the Leader of the House. What will go out will be three weeks of unrestricted diet to the television companies for them to show us how they can handle it. Anyone who thinks that at the end of that period we will be able to withdraw it and say "No, you cannot go any further because we do not like what you did" is living in a fool's paradise.
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The hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maude) was absolutely right. Once we say that this can go on for three weeks, we shall have committed ourselves for ever to an unrestricted diet for the television companies. On the other hand, if we were to say to the television companies "Yes, you can have a picture of Parliament but one which comes through the editorial control of the parliamentary television group", it may be that in time we could reach a state of trust which would enable us to dispense with that intermediate control. That stage is not yet with us.
Before we can go to that extreme we have to go through the process of exercising control through our own unit. When we have done that, shown the public what Parliament is and explained the nuances of this Chamber and the way in which opinion is moved, not so much by the great rhetoric, the great orators, by the Front Bench even, but by those in the Chamber whose judgment can be trusted as sound—the kind of things we all learn over the time we are in this place—there may be an unrestricted diet for the television companies because the people will be able to judge whether the editor has gone wrong in his handling of the subject matter. Until we reach that stage it must be a restricted diet.
For that reason I would, as the first stage, vote for a Motion which contained my Amendment with the possibility of moving further in due course. Unless that Amendment is in, I shall not vote for the Motion. It is not in the Motion at present. What is in the Motion is an unrestricted diet subject to any concession which might be made in discussion with the Services Committee. That is altogether too unrestrained. If the Select Committee wants to continue this discussion with the companies for another six months and return to the House with a much tighter arrangement carefully spelled out in a Motion, I shall vote for it. But until then I am not having it
8.43 p.m.
Mr. Norman Tebbit: In the two years that I have been a Member of this place I cannot recollect a day when I have more enjoyed sitting on these benches listening to what hon. Members had to say. Never before have I seen with such clarity the benefits of the

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traditions which have been built up in this House, nor what a splendid fellow the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) is and what terrible thoughts my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) has. If nothing else, the time which we have spent on debating this matter, whatever conclusion we come to, has for me been well spent.
Before we admit cameras to this Chamber, we must above all ask ourselves what has been the experience in other areas where the cameras have been admitted. Is there anything, with the exception which I suggested earlier of show jumping, which has not been trivialised and, to a large degree, spoiled by having the cameras trained on it? There are events in the streets which would normally attract little notice. They are usually the sort of events which we would all regret. If one brings in a television camera, there is a confrontation. The camera trivialises and introduces violence and tensions which were not there. Even the appalling tragedies of war and of natural disaster are now flicked on and off in living rooms all over the country as little electronic shadows. Often they have even less meaning to those who view them than they did when we heard of similar events through the disembodied voice speaking to us from those scenes and describing them to us
We talk about conducting a television experiment in this place. Experiment indeed! I had something of a scientific education. I thought that before one conducted an experiment one had clearly in mind what one was to do, the manner in which it would be done, its objective and on what standards one would judge the results which flowed from it. I have heard nothing of that today. As an experiment, this one ranks with the sort of experiment which a young chap would propose to a girl when he took her to Brighton for the weekend, and the results are nearly as unpredictable in terms of what happens to those who participate in it.
Mr. Marten: Speak for yourself.
Mr. Tebbit: As my hon. Friend knows, I always speak for myself, as surely as he always speaks for himself.
It is a comment on the relationship between the medium of television and our-
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selves that we have heard from my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House the implication that we should be rather grateful for the fact that the television companies will not charge us for broadcasting our proceedings. I understand that they pay the all-in wrestlers with whom they fill in the time gaps. It seems that we should be almost the only category, apart from the commercial advertiser, which should be jolly grateful for the time we are afforded. Is that the right way in which this experiment should be conducted? Is that the basis on which this House should go as a supplicant to the television companies? I doubt it.
Mr. J. T. Price: If I may make a comment on the hon. Gentleman's very shrewd observations, this is a proposition to give the television authorities the "Match of the Day" without paying any fee.
Mr. Tebbit: It is just that proposition. If the hon. Gentleman has watched football on television he will know where the cameras always focus—on the punch-up, on the chap lying on the ground shouting "Foul", or more likely shouting foully. The experimenters do not even say whether they want to change Parliament's procedures in general by introducing the cameras. There is doubt over whether Parliament will be changed. But nobody is prepared to say whether he wants it changed or, if so, whether there is any agreement on the way in which it should be changed.
Much of the argument on the inevitability of admitting the cameras to this place is based on the entirely false analogy of Press reporting. Let us be clear that we are not proposing anything which is the equivalent to the freedom of the Press, because behind the freedom of the Press to report as it will what it wishes of these proceedings there is also freely available to the public and published every day the official record of the proceedings of the House, of Standing Committees and, eventually, of Select Committees.
Will there be available to the public, without the intercession of any person the tapes of the proceedings of the Chamber, of Standing Committees or of Select Committees? If not, there is no true comparison between the freedom of the Press and the freedom which it is

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proposed we should give the television cameras. Unless everything is shown to the public—what is called, full frontal exposure, in television terms, with nothing concealed—it would not be what is happening here.
The television medium has exciting possibilities of fake combativeness, the irresistible urge of mixing the image of speech and visual image not necessarily of the Member speaking, and no producer worth his salt would resist them. Undoubtedly the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson) is right. Sooner or later we should lose any control—in many ways rightly so—of what is shown. God forbid that we should have a Committee of the House arranging such control or that officials of the House should be given the task of arranging it. I fear that all they would have to arrange the next day would be the broadcasting of the points of order that had been raised about the conduct of the Members and officials of the House regarding what had been broadcast.
If our proceedings were to be understood, they would have to be interpreted. If they are to be interpreted, someone will stand between us and the people. For that reason I must cast my vote against the experiment. In fact, it is not an experiment; it is a reckless escapade from which we would never free ourselves.
8.54 p.m.
Mr. Philip Whitehead: Because of the lateness of the hour, I shall not follow the hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Tebbit), except to say that he thinks it is unarguable, in the nature of television that it must trivialise, damage and ultimately destroy everything which it touches. Television will still be with us after the destruction of our liberties in this place, saying to us, as the scorpion said to the frog in the Arab proverb as they both fell struggling to the bottom of the stream, "I stung you because it was in my nature to do so".
It is not in the nature of television to destroy or damage this place and for us to be unable to do anything about it. We can control our own destiny in these matters. I shall identify the arguments of principle and the arguments of the terms of entry, which we have been having in a rather different form in great debates
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recently. I can only say to those who are opposed in principle that I assert the principle which the late Aneurin Bevan raised in 1959 when he said:
"All I am suggesting is that in these days when the apparatus of mass suggestion is against democratic education, we should seriously consider re-establishing intelligent communication between the House of Commons and the electorate as a whole."
He was right to think of television in that context and we are right so to think of it now.
Those who think that television will drag us down and trivialise our debates are right to put arguments of principle against us. I can only say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) that his speech today, distinguished though it was, was one of which Colonel Onslow would not have been ashamed in 1771. We had these arguments before. We had them 200 years ago on the question of the Press, and most of the comments now levelled at television could, on the argument of principle, have been levelled, and could now be levelled, at the Press as well, for the Press equally is a trivialiser and equally, if given its head, can belittle our debates.
To those who say, "Yes, we would like television in if the terms are right, if nothing would be changed, if we could have the medium entering our Chamber neutral in every sense, not altering our formalities, our style and our procedures", I would say, with my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), who made a most distinguished speech, that the House is constantly changing, and there will inevitably be technical details to be dealt with—the intensity of the light, the presence of the cameras, and so on. Television is still in its infancy. The medium itself is changing. The technology is developing, making it easier for our proceedings to be covered unobtrusively rather than obtrusively, and all this means that we should have less of the kind of intrusion which some hon. Members fear.
Some hon. Members have said that our empty benches would be shown, that there would be riot and disorder, that Members would be crossing the Floor to fight one another. Right hon. and hon. Members behave here as they do because they are the men they are. Some wear

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bright yellow shirts, some wear striped shirts, some have handlebar moustaches, according to their predelictions. If television came in, it would not be the presence of the cameras which made some Members thereafter do all these things. We behave as we do because we are the men we are. Sartorially, for example, we behave in different ways now. My hon. friend the Member for Pontypool Mr. Abse) is today wearing a flower in his button hole because it is in his nature to do so, and it has nothing to do with the fact that he may be going on a television programme afterwards.
Mr. Leo Abse: As soon as the cameras come in, every hon. Member, I suspect, will be asking me for the name of my tailor.
Mr. Whitehead: That would be a better bargain for the House. If I may say so, it is an illustration of one of the admirable side-effects of allowing the television cameras in.
Before he departed to go on television tonight, my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) made great play of the argument that the presence of television cameras would gravely alter our proceedings. But there is selection already, selection as between one Member and another, gravely damaging for some of us, which goes on because of what Aneurin Bevan called the ipse dixit of the television bureaucracy—choosing the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) or my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw to go on television instead of other hon. Members who have made worthwhile contributions in the debate today.
What we are suggesting is that if there is to be proper coverage of the affairs of the Chamber, we should have fair editing, and, if there is to be editing, we here must be satisfied about it. If we cannot, in the course of the experiment, arrive at a definition of fair editing which is acceptable to us, we must have whole debates, selected occasions, or nothing at all, so that all back benchers get in and have their segment of the debate.
The experiment outlined to us by the Lord President tonight did not seem very satisfactory to me. It seemed too short and too limited. We should be paying to
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do this ourselves. It would not cost much more than the ridiculous car park which we are constructing outside. We should not be doing this on the broadcasters' terms but should do it ourselves. We should experiment with live feed, with the transmission of whole debates, as well as looking at the matter ourselves and letting the public judge a series of edited programmes.
If we do that, we could come to some conclusion ourselves about the way to establish a parliamentary broadcasting unit directly responsible to the House, not responsible to the man on the end of the telephone to whom my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone referred, not responsible to the values of sensationalism, news trivia and so on in Broadcasting House. If we can establish such a broadcasting unit, a further Motion could be brought forward. We could vote upon that, and then, in the fullness of time, decide what form the experiment should take. But, today, let us at least take the decision in principle.
9.0 p.m.
Mr. J. T. Price: I begin my few observations with a quiet comment which lies at the base of my root and branch objection to the Motion. One cannot have worked in this ancient Parliament for half a lifetime, as I have been privileged to do, without having developed a genuine love for the place and all that it has stood for in our history. I sincerely believe that the focussing of cameras and the lights and other apparatus of modern communications on our debates would completely destroy the atmosphere of the Chamber and our ability of conduct affairs uninhibited as we should wish.
On 24th November, 1966, I took part in a similar debate when my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman), then Leader of the House, fully expected the formal Motion proposing an experiment with closed circuit cameras to result in an almost desultory debate and to go through almost "on the nod". But I am an old enough politician and sufficiently experienced in the ways of the House to have some respect for the old political dictum which is the base of all democratic politics: the price of liberty is eternal vigilance. I know that the foot in the door is only

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the first stage for those who wish to destroy our ancient traditions, which have led us to enjoy the reputation of being the Mother of Parliaments.
I returned to the Chamber about an hour ago, having been away for a short time. The hon. Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Batsford), introducing the Motion in his usual mild and pleasant manner, and his colleagues have suggested that there is a tremendous demand from those who send us here for the televising of our proceedings and that they are straining at the leash to cast their beady eyes upon us via the television cameras, so that our every movement and gesture will be recorded on a million hearthstones.
In that event, I expected on my return to the House to see a long queue of people awaiting admission to the public gallery. If there is a mass lobby that supports the televising of our proceedings, one would expect a queue of at least 5,000 people, as on the occasion of other great debates when people have queued on the off-chance of a seat in the public gallery, to which many of us do not often refer. But at this moment the public gallery is not even full. In my 22 years' membership of the House I have never received one personal letter from any constituent or organised body of opinion in my part of Lancashire demanding that I sponsor the televising of the House.
I want better evidence than the sponsors of the Motion have produced to give it any support or modest toleration—and I am very tolerant, as my hon. Friends know. But to ask me to tolerate a spectacle of some prefabricated cocked-up Motion of this kind, which is the brainchild of the top executives in Broadcasting House and the Independent Television Authority and their particular friends in the television lobby in this House—they are the progenitors and sponsors of the Motion; it is not the result of public agitation—is asking too much.
Mr. Botsford: The Motion was drafted by the hon. Member for Barking (Mr. Driberg) and myself. No member of the BBC staff or anybody else had anything to do with it.
Mr. Price: I know what a mild-mannered man the hon. Gentleman is,
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and we all like him; but on this occasion I think he is misguided and has allowed himself to be led into channels which I should have resisted if I had been similarly approached.
I want to treat this occasion seriously in the short time at my disposal, as I have on previous occasions. When I consider the performance of television and its impact on public affairs, I am deeply concerned about the impact of edited versions of our proceedings. Whether such edited versions were by the television experts and professional people or by some kind of almighty Committee of this House which might be given the task of conducting such an editorial process, the outcome would merely be a fragmentary and partial record of our proceedings.
What takes place here? I am proud to be regarded as an old parliamentarian with some experience of this place, with many friends in all parts of the House, and free to say what I believe to be true whether anybody agrees with me or not. However, there are occasions in this House when Members of Parliament have the great privilege—one of the cornerstones of democracy—of saying what they feel to be true without any risk of prosecution outside on grounds of defamation or libel. If our proceedings are put into the media and are parked on 5 million or 6 million hearthstones, if so many knobs are switched on at the appropriate time, one shudders to think, if that is not a cliché, what would happen if the kind of exposés which are sometimes made on these benches go out to those 5 million or 6 million hearthstones. This is a serious point which I should like the Home Secretary to consider. I am glad to see him in his place.
I am deeply concerned for the traditions of this House, not because I am an elitist and not because of what my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) said in a most interesting and effective speech. I see that the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has just come in. I am very pleased to see him. He has a trick of breaking my thread of narrative, but I will try to resume where I left off. I was referring to the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds,

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West, who is a considerable parliamentarian. He spoke about the ethos of this place. I do not want to follow him into the higher ranges, the stratosphere of academic discussion on this matter, but there is something about this place—its sovereignty. The fact that we are sent here at the will and pleasure of the people is sufficient for me. So long as I can express my views freely in this House without the beady eye of some mechanical device interposed between me and my constituents, that is good enough for me. If they do not like me at the end of my spell of duty, they can get rid of me and send somebody else. That is as much as I require, so long as my time goes in this House.
Unfortunately—I do not say this with malice or with any wish to hurt anybody—the invention of this wonderful medium which is in people's homes, now increasingly in colour as against black and white, and its use by the professionals who operate it, has tended to demean and belittle some of the greatest achievements of which we are so proud. It has sullied the image of people who are trying to do honest work and has glamourised the trivial at the expense of the serious and what is of value to the country.
Unfortunately these trends have persisted. Unfortunately it has made mountains out of molehills. Unfortunately, the clowns and the acrobats have been picked up at times and have been turned into spell binders.
If I may be reminiscent for a moment I can recall in our last debate six years ago when I was on the Government side of the House, I directed my remarks to a well-known hon. Member who has a glamorous and hirsuit appearance. He possesses whiskers and other things and he was annoyed because I said that once the medium was introduced and the cameras were focused upon hon. Members, those who were hirsuit and who possessed those histrionic qualities would rush to get their undistinguished profiles projected over the television screens.
The hon. Member in question, whom I have not named—I leave it to the House to guess his identity—came to me after that exciting and interesting debate, for which the benches were packed, and
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he growled in his stentorian voice, "You did me a great injustice and I quite agree with you." I put that on the record for the researchers to make what they like of it. On that occasion I took my stand and was a teller in the "No" Lobby and the Motion was defeated by one vote.
I shall avoid the arguments about the heat, the light and the technical apparatus which would be offensive because they have no doubt been dealt with already and we have had unsatisfactory answers to the criticisms that have been made. I am glad to see that you have returned to your Chair, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: Order. Maybe I should be equally glad to see the hon. Member resume his seat.
Mr. Price: I know I have your full sympathy, Mr. Speaker, in the struggle I am having to keep order in the House, but that is your function and not mine.
The function of hon. Members who have the great privilege of being sent here to represent their constituencies does not consist in the main of sitting in the Chamber and listening to hours of technical debate on matters in which they have no particular expertise. My functions as a Member of Parliament are numerous. My first duty is to assist in the redress of grievances of those I represent in Lancashire. Those people express their grievances to me and I am the vehicle for expressing them here. That is my first duty and I have always understood it and tried to carry it out.
My second duty often consumes a great deal of my time. I serve on all kinds of Committees upstairs. There are certain matters on which I am competent to hold views. I claim that on quite a range of questions I have a point of view. I may have more impact on legislation before the House by expressing my views temperately in a closed Committee Room than by making a big stir on the Floor of the House.
Like the hon. and gallant Member for Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke), I serve on Select Committees, which are an important part of our administration. I spend a great deal of time examining witnesses and producing reports on matters of national importance, which sometimes have a great impact on the policy of this country.

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I spend a great deal of time writing letters, investigating grievances, interviewing Ministers, and travelling to my constituency and other parts of the country. Other hon. Members travel to other parts of the world, but I love this country so much that I have not left it for seven years. Not many hon. Members can say that. I must also spend time eating, drinking and sometimes, if the Sitting lasts for 24 hours or more, having a sleep somewhere.
Yet, because the mandarins of the television authorities are to bring their apparatus into this place, if I am not sitting here I am likely to hear people say when I return to my constituency at the weekend and go into one of my Labour clubs or another place, "We were looking at television last night, Tom, and we didn't see you on the green benches". That sort of thing will be a great injustice to some of the most industrious and useful Members of the House.
9.17 p.m.
Sir Paul Bryan: In preparation for the debate I perused the admirable reference sheet produced by the House of Commons Library. Starting with the summary of events in the years 1965–68 and going on through the long list of the debates, the reports of the Select Committee and so on, it seemed that everything that could be said about the matter must have been said. I had the feeling that the time had come to stop talking until we had something new to talk about. The debate has confirmed that view.
We have had in effect the same debate as we had in 1966. It has been a rather better debate, with livelier speeches. It has been livelier and better attended, but in substance we have been talking in circles about exactly the same things—whether the lights would be too bright, whether the cameras would get in the way, whether we should be properly reported, the question of the editing and who would make the records, and so on. We have all posed those questions once again, and posed them in a way to suit our own convictions.
In the debate of 1966 you made the wisest remark, Mr. Speaker, when you said:
"We should try to consider those things but not decide them before taking a decision on
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the experiment."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th November, 1966; Vol. 736, c. 1641.]
Until we have seen an experiment we can ony continue to speculate, which is what we did then and what we have been doing today. Today has bees: a debate of speculation. I shall not go any further into those arguments. I shall try instead to answer the arguments against the experiment which have been presented today.
The first is that there is nothing to be learnt from an experiment. For the reasons I have just given I am absolutely certain that hon. Members have plenty to learn from the experiment. Our debate has come to a full stop for lack of fresh evidence.
The wiser professionals in the broadcasting organisations show a greater humility. When asked whether the BBC and the IBA would want to produce a daily television programme on the lines of "Today in Parliament", Mr. Oliver Whitley of the BBC is reported to have said:
"We are resolutely determined that the proposed experiment should be an experiment for the broadcasters as well as for Parliament, and not to commit ourselves in advance of it to any particular continuing representation. In other words, we do not want to say at this stage that we would or would not have a regular daily record of Parliament. We have much to learn from the experiment as well as the two Houses of Parliament."
That is a good example of exactly the sort of thing both we and the broadcasters will learn from the experiment.
I very much doubt the wisdom of the assumption that a daily "Today in Parliament" programme can be maintained. Imagine, for instance, a day when the business of the House was Welsh Questions followed by Scottish housing, with perhaps local government Committee stage in another place. I challenge any editor to produce a "Today in Parliament" type of report from that material which would be of general interest to the whole country, of interest to, say, East Anglia. We must get down to the importance of the regional broadcasts. On a day like that it would be possible to produce an interesting programme for Scottish Television and the regional programmes of the BBC as well as an interesting programme for Wales, but not for the rest of the country. That is one

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point we have not discussed enough. Today, only the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel) really talked about the regional aspect.
You will know, Mr. Speaker, that the BBC was compelled some time ago to strengthen its regional coverage to compete with the success of the regional ITV companies. Compact and crowded as this island is, nevertheless our people retain strong regional loyalties and interests. The broadcasting of Parliament would affect the regions in three ways. First, listeners in the regions would be interested to hear their own Members in general debates. Secondly, they would be interested to hear subjects relevant to their areas debated in the House. Thirdly, and very important, they would see on television for the first time back-bench Members from their region who have toiled here for years unreported. I agree with the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) that televising our proceedings would be of much greater advantage to back benchers than to those on the Front Bench.
With all these matters in mind, I question whether three weeks will be enough for an experiment. Three weeks means 12 working days, and I doubt whether that is sufficient time to provide the variety of circumstances and material on which the broadcasters can work, especially to do justice to the regional problem. I wonder whether the Services Committee will give second thoughts to the duration of this experiment, especially in view of the small cost involved.
The other argument deployed against the experiment is that it is not an experiment at all, that once television has been tried in the House it is bound to take root for good and all. There is no logical way one can support that argument. In fact, all the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. J. T. Price) could say was that those who wish to destroy the traditions of the House—I would like to know who they are—want to get their foot in the door. That is not a convincing argument. It is an argument of fear. Those who make it fear that the experiment will prove them wrong and dare not put their opinions to the test; or they have lack of faith in the House in which they claim to have faith.
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You, Mr. Speaker, in the last debate said that you approached the question on the clear understanding that it was far from being a formality and a prelude to an inevitable decision. That is our approach. I agree with my hon. Friend the Leader of the House that if we see from the experiment that the reputation of the House is to be lowered, we shall be quick to remove television from the House.
In the last debate, the present Lord Chancellor—then Mr. Quintin Hogg—said simply that his objection to television was it would change the nature of the House and that he did not want it changed.
Mr. J. T. Price: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sorry to raise a point of order at this late hour, but I think that it would be in accordance with the traditions and practice of the House if the hon. Member for Howden (Sir P. Bryan) would at least declare his personal interest in television. I believe that he is connected with it. [Interruption.] I do not care, but if he has an interest it should be declared.
Sir P. Bryan: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will tell me what my interest is, because I have no personal interest in television whatever.
Mr. J. T. Price: I accept that. [Interruption.] Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I understand that if an hon. Member gives such an assurance, it is not debatable by whoever challenged him. If I were in a position to debate it, I would ask the hon. Gentleman when he divested himself of the interest he had.
Sir P. Bryan: It is not worth pursuing. I was a Minister for some time and as a Minister one does not have commercial interests.
I return now to what Lord Hailsham said. His objection to television was that it would change the nature of the House and he did not want it changed. But we must face the fact that our House is always changing, as the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale said. We have built in machinery to make sure that changes can be made, and made smoothly. The Select Committee on Procedure constantly works to try to make sure that the changes are for the better.

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If the House's authorisation for the experiment leads later to the televising of our proceedings, that will not be the end of the matter. We shall merely have entered a new stage of change; I do not doubt that within a year hon. Members will want further adjustments made. There will be nothing alarming about that. It will be a continuation of the process by which the House has always adjusted itself to the spirit of the times. I hope and expect that our experience will eventually lead us to authorise and encourage an even wider distribution of the recorded procedings of the House. I believe that we can do a lot to help in education. I was delighted to hear from my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House the suggestion that television screens will be in Westminster Hall should the experiment be proceeded with.
I will not anticipate these things any more for fear of sinking any floating votes. But to calm their fears I will add that I believe in a step-by-step approach. I am convinced that in the interests of our House the first step we should authorise is the experiment so well proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Batsford).
9.27 p.m.
Mr. Neil Marten: I very much agree that this day has been well spent—except perhaps since nine o'clock, when the House seems to have gone into a number of committees debating in various parts of the Chamber. My only regret is that the debate is taking place on a Thursday. We are having what my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House called a genuinely free vote. I am delighted to get that official distinction between a free vote and a genuine free vote. At the end of the day, whatever happens, we should take note of the number of people actually present and voting.
I would also have liked to see the television lights on during the whole of the debate so that we could see what it was like. Most of us have studied the reports of the Select Committees and many of us saw the experiment in the House of Lords a few years ago. Most of us have probably made up our minds.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr St. John-Stevas) —[Interruption.]—curiously enough, I do
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agree with him—that this has been a reasonably balanced debate and that in the end it is very much a question of one's opinion. However, I think that the slight difference in the balance of the debate is one which is deeply held indeed.
There is one question which has to be asked. It has already been asked. Who wants the House to be televised? Clearly, some hon. Members do and they have told us today why. Clearly, the television authorities want it because it would be, they hope, good entertainment. I somewhat agreed with my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker) when he asked how many letters hon. Members had received asking that the House should be televised. I have not received one such letter. I take the point by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. J. T. Price) when he says that there is no queue waiting to see us. Perhaps that is because at lunchtime I went on television to talk about the forthcoming debate. That may have put people off, but I think there is no genuine public demand for this proposal and that it comes only from certain hon. Members and the television people themselves.
My basic objection, which I think is that of most of us who object to the proposal, is that television would change the character and atmosphere of the House. I concede the unusual combination of my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford and the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), and I should perhaps add that the objection really is to the change in an unnatural way. We do not mind change. It is the unnatural way of the change we mind.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: Behave yourself.
Mr. Marten: This change would damage the informality of our Chamber, which is one of the pleasures of debates in this House. One has to ask seriously whether it would be for the benefit of our proceedings if we were televised. Personally I do not think so. This is the only Chamber in the world. I have been to which has our friendly chitchat across the Floor. I like that, and I would like to keep it like that.
Let me give one example of the sort of difficulty which would arise from televising our proceedings. A Minister—it does not matter which party is in Government—goes to the Box. Somebody

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asks a question and the Minister says "Of course the hon. Member does not understand what he is talking about". That happened to me the other day from the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. However, on television that sort to reply from a Minister at the Dispatch Box would be a pretty snide remark to make about a Member and it might be observed in the hon. Member's constituency. The hon. Member concerned does not usually have the chance of a second supplementary question to come back at the Minister. On the occasion when it happened to me the other day, Mr. Speaker most kindly afforded me a chance on a different Question, and I got my own back. That, however, is an example of the sort of danger which could arise.
Thirdly, and from the point of view of Ministers, while we are talking about them, I think they do not want to be judged on television by their performance at the Box as their performance comes through on television. Of course, some Ministers have off days—some more off than others. I remember that when I had the privilege to be a very junior Minister I was answering Questions one day when I had the 'flu coming on. My performance was terrible, much worse than my usual performance. Ministers should be judged not on their obvious performances at the Despatch Box but by the effectiveness of their policies and of their Departments; they should not be judged by their performance on television.
Then we should ask this question of ourselves fairly seriously. Why should Parliament conform to the passion for potted life on the "box"? My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, South (Mr. Batsford), in his very good opening speech, referred to the wide area of life covered by television. I pose the question whether we want to extend this process to include the House of Commons. Television is mainly an entertainment medium. If Members of Parliament want to provide entertainment, let them go into a studio with somebody like Robin Day. He is an excellent interrogator and will draw all the entertainment out of hon. Members. The studio is far the best place in which to do this. One reason is that in the studio, apart from somebody like Robin Day being present there are no rules of order. But
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in the House an hon. Member's arguments are often frustrated by the rules of order, particularly at Question Time when an hon. Member cannot ask a second supplementary question.
The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale argued that by televising Parliament we would give the people a new sense of participation in the process of communication. Such participation by the nation in political life is not a real entity. It is only one way. Participation is a two-way matter. If the Government or the House of Commons really want the nation to participate, they have just missed a supreme opportunity by turning down the proposal for a referendum on the Common Market.
The main problem behind what is being discussed in this debate is what will actually go out from this House on to the television screen. We know that there will be a potted edition of our proceedings lasting 30 minutes which will allow only small snippets of speeches to be broadcast.
I should like at this point to relate what happened to me at the Conservative Party conference since it illustrates the danger we are running into. The House recognises that for a long time I have been against joining the Common Market. At the Blackpool conference an anodyne and wet motion on the order paper was chosen for debate. It was so wet that even I said I could support it. When I got to the rostrum I was allowed to speak for four minutes and I made two points. The first point was a nice, friendly one in which I said that throughout all the arguments on the Common Market, although hon. Members on this side of the House disagreed violently at times, we did not lose any friendships. The second point I made was to repeat my old plea for a referendum, which was turned down flat. That is what my speech was, and after delivering it I departed from Blackpool as quietly as I could.
Then, on the Monday morning my mail arrived. I will not bore the House by quoting from it all, but I received three particularly interesting letters which sum up the situation. One letter said:
"Dear Mr. Marten, I watched your disgraceful performance at the Conservative Party conference. You are a dirty swine to let us all down like this."

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The viewer thought that, because I said in the debate that I had lost no friends, there was something wrong about it.
The next letter I opened said this, and it illustrates the danger of editing:
"Dear Mr. Marten, Your speech today on the Common Market was splendid and to the point and not like the waffling and vague promises about the tremendous advantages to come of the pro-Marketeers. But what did the BBC do—report it and quoted it all out of context. Indeed, they implied that you had reservations on keeping out."
I did not see it on television—I did not bother to—but I imagine that it was the except that went out in the evening, a condensed versison, and that is the sort of thing that we would have. The excerpt gave that impression.
That illustrates how editing—it is not editing; it is cutting—and taking only a few sentences would be dangerous. If I am misreported in the Press, I write letters to the editor. However, I hardly ever watch television. I do not think I should look at the potted television misreporting of Parliament. If I were misreported in a newspaper, I should write to the editor and I am sure that he would publish my letter. If I were misreported, or mis-extracted, on television, in the first place I would not see it. I should have to go and see the videotape next day. How would I get a correction published? Editing as practised by the newspapers is a matter of summarising, as The Times does. Television editing must be by cutting and taking live expressions out of the speech, therefore making things out of context and irrelevant. Editing is, therefore, one of the greatest dangers in the whole project. That is why I do not even want a trial. Editing is a great danger, and it is impossible to find the perfect editor who will make it absolutely right.
I understood my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to say that extracts would be edited for peak viewing hours. I do not know whether I have the right end of the stick. If it were on the same day, it would create a rush of Members to speak before editing time, which is very much what happened in Australia and caused such trouble.
Mr. R. Carr: My hon. Friend must have misunderstood me. I said that whatever programmes, following discussion with the Services Committee, were finally
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agreed upon it was important that the broadcasting authorities should broadcast a reasonable proportion of them, not only late at night but during ordinary viewing hours, so that we could get the reaction of the public as a whole and not only the reaction of the minority public, but certainly not to encourage certain Members to seek to speak at a particular time.
Mr. Marten: In view of the shortage of time perhaps we can follow this up on a different occasion.
My next point concerns the question of parliamentary humour. From time to time my wife comes up to watch us, and she is amazed at the way we suddenly burst out laughing for no apparent reason. It happened this afternoon when my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Winchester (Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles) said on a point of order that the Serjeant at Arms was blushing. That caused a great guffaw, because we all know what it related to. If that went out on television, what would anybody think? Perhaps it would not matter what people thought.
From your point of view, Mr. Speaker, the guffaws and the laughter often save the parliamentary situation and calm things down. Anything which inhibits the spontaneous sense of humour in the House would be a great mistake.
The hon. Members for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel) and for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) said that we must not be afraid of televising our proceedings. We are not afraid of it. We just do not want it.
Would the television of our proceedings in the Chamber alter the style of our debates? Would they be adversely changed? If they were, we should not have it. Thirdly, would it unconsciously place restrictions on our speeches either directly or indirectly? If it did, we should not do it. And we must not forget that the main purpose of our asembly is to deliberate and legislate and not to put on a show for television.
9.45 p.m.
Mr. Tom Driberg: I am greatly obliged to the three hon. Members who have preceded me for keeping strictly to the times they set themselves. I hope that I may be forgiven if I do not give way to interruptions. Usually I am

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glad to do so, but I have very little time in which to answer or to comment upon some of the speeches that have been made in a most interesting debate. As the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) has just referred to his party conference, perhaps I could make that the reason for answering what was possibly his main point and one of the main points made in other speeches, that television will change the character of this place so much that it will be unrecognisable. He particularly instanced the informality, the humour and the friendliness of this place.
I do not believe that we shall be so self-conscious that we shall become a totally different kind of assembly. We have had some years of experience of party conferences being televised and I have found that as the years have gone by the delegates speaking at the rostrum have become less and less conscious of the distant eye of the camera. They are much more interested in convincing and persuading other delegates, the people around them in their immediate neighbourhood rather than bothering about the unseen audience beyond the camera. That is my impression of conference television. Conferences are just as informal—our conferences are, I am not sure about the Conservative Party conference—as the proceedings of this House and, almost always, just as friendly.
It is a good many years since the Select Committee of which I had the honour to be chairman had this subject brought to its attention, first I think by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English). We have gone on and on over the years discussing it. The same arguments have been rehearsed over again, although not all hon. Members who have spoken seem—perhaps it was an impossible thing to expect—to have read the report of the Committee on this subject, which was admittedly published six years ago. However, it contains all the answers to all the questions. The project outlined by the Leader of the House today in essence follows the recommendations of the Select Committee, with one important exception, with which I entirely agree, namely, the change from closed circuit to public viewing.
580
It is an admirable idea at least to sound out the public and to get their impressions. It is for this House to decide when there has been an adequate period of experiment. I agree with the hon. Member who said that three weeks was not perhaps quite adequate. If we are to have programmes devoted to the Standing Committees, the Scottish Grand Committee and so on it is certainly essential that we have about six weeks but not much more.
What I cannot understand is why some hon. Members seem to be so incredulous about the genuineness of the experimental character of the project. We have had assurances not only from the Leader of the House but from the broadcasting people, from everyone concerned, that this is a genuine experiment. If it turns out to be unsatisfactory, I for one will certainly vote against having any permanent arrangement. I cannot see why people are apparently doubtful about having the opportunity of voting "No". All this is on record and there is no doubt in my mind of the genuineness of the experiment.
Let me deal with the "foot in the door" argument. My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson) developed this in an interesting and thoughtful speech, although it was, I felt, an unduly sinister speech. There were terrible warnings of a rapid decline which would take place as soon as this evil genius of television got its tentacles around this House. We would collapse almost immediately—at any rate, there was an inevitability of gradualness in that decline. I cannot accept that. Apart from anything else, the BBC and ITV are not so totally black as they have been painted by some today. I agree that their greatest evil is triviality, the tendency to trivialise everything. No one can deny that there have been a number of perfectly serious and important programmes on both channels from time to time, not as often as I would like. The trivial still outweighs the important in total content. None the less, ITV and in particular the BBC have produced a lot of good stuff and these will be some more very important programmes for them to produce. We shall be helping in this experiment to raise the quality of the television programmes; at least, that is my impression.

581
I do not accept my hon. Friend's theory that we shall inevitably decline into triviality and that the reputation of this House will be ruined by these wicked bosses, like the boss who turned his producer pale because of the programme "Under Fire". That was a terrible programme. It was severely criticised by the critics and the public and after a time it was quite rightly taken off and buried. It was a disgraceful programme. But it was the commercial boss who rang up the producer in that case. In the case of this experiment, and if we were to approve, after the experiment, we should be the boss, not some commercial producer.
The whole essence of the experiment and the way in which it is done is that a House of Commons broadcasting unit will be responsible for choosing the material which is to go out, in the feed or signal, to the various broadcasting organisations. If the broadcasting unit does not do its job properly, we shall complain; and ultimately Mr. Speaker could dismiss the unit. But I do not see any likelihood of that happening, certainly not in the experimental period. If it did happen in the experimental period, we should all vote "No" to any continuation of the experiment.
There is a slight misunderstanding about who would be in the broadcasting unit. One hon. Member opposite said that it should not consist of Members of the House. Of course not. That is not proposed. It would consist of experts in this field who are either seconded to the service of the House or employed directly by the House, as the HANSARD reporters are employed by the House under Mr. Speaker.
Therefore, most of the apprehensions which have been expressed today are illusory. This experiment can be extremely useful. I personally think that it will be a success. I hope that it is; I do not make any secret of that. But we can vote "No" after we and the public have seen it.
Another hon. Member who was a little pessimistic was my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton), who made by far the most robust and lively
582
speech of the day. It would have been a marvellous speech to put on television. He is fairly frequently on television in various programmes. But he got things a bit wrong. Like other hon. Members, he commented on the well-known phenomenon of empty benches. He said that during the coal debate, when he was not called, if we had been on television his constituents would have said, "Why did you not speak?". But they would have seen him getting up each time trying to catch Mr. Speaker's eye.
The other point which is raised repeatedly concerns the question of exhibitionists. I see no difference between the situation in television as it would be, or could be, and the situation in the Press. We already have exhibitionists in the House who are always speaking to the gallery, which sometimes is perfectly legitimate. If an hon. Member is making a constituency points perhaps in a half-hour Adjournment debate late at night, his speech may not be reported in the national Press; but there is no reason why he should not make a constituency speech. That is what Parliament is partly about. Therefore, I do not think that is a valid point, particularly as we are not proposing, and nobody has proposed, continuous live televising of all our proceedings.
That answers the point about Australia. There could be no rush to get into the picture at the peak viewing hour because it would not be a continuous programme. It would be edited extracts—the only alternative and the one which the Select Committee came down in favour of. With edited extracts, the exhibitionists would not necessarily get into the programme every time they got up and started to shout. The editors and producers—the experts—would take note. They are not complete fools.
I do not want to deal only with the technicalities. In my view, this is basically a democratic issue. Like justice, parliamentary democracy—and imperfect though it may be, it is the best democracy we have—should not only work but be seen to work and be seen at work.
Question put:—
The House divided: Ayes 165, Noes 191.

Division No. 340.]

AYES

[10.0 p.m.

Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

Fox, Marcus

Orme, Stanley

Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

Armstrong. Ernest

Fraser, John (Norwood)

Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby)

Atkinson, Norman

Freeson, Reginald

Page, John (Harrow, W.)

Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

Gardner, Edward

Pounder, Rafton

Barnes, Michael

Golding, John

Prescott, John

Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

Gorst, John

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Barnett, Joel (Heywood and Royton)

Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

Proudfoot, Wilfred

Batsford, Brian

Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

Raison, Timothy

Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

Berry, Hn. Anthony

Hannam, John (Exeter)

Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

Bidwell, Sydney

Hawkins, Paul

Rees, Peter (Dover)

Blaker, Peter

Hay, John

Rees-Davies, W. R.

Blenkinsop, Arthur

Hayhoe, Barney

Richard, Ivor

Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

Heffer, Eric S.

Ridsdale, Julian

Bossom, Sir Clive

Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

Howell, David (Guildford)

Rost, Peter

Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

Huckfield, Leslie

St. John-Stevas, Norman

Bryan, Sir Paul

Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

Sandelson, Neville

Buchan, Norman

Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

Scott, Nicholas

Buck, Antony

Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechtord)

Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

Shelton, William (Clapham)

Carlisle, Mark

Kaufman, Gerald

Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

Carmichael, Neil

Kerr, Russell

Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

King Tom (Bridgwater)

Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

Cary, Sir Robert

Kinnock, Neil

Skinner, Dennis

Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

Kirk, Peter

Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

Chapman, Sydney

Knox, David

Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

Churchill, W. S.

Lamont, Norman

Speed, Keith

Clark, David (Colne Valley)

Lane, David

Spence, John

Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Lawson, George

Stallard, A. W.

Cockeram, Eric

Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

Steel, David

Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

Leonard, Dick

Stoddart, David (Swindon)

Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

Crouch, David

Lloyd,Rt.Hn.Geoffrey(Sut'nC'field)

Strang, Gavin

Davidson, Arthur

Luce, R. N.

Sutcliffe, John

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

McCrindle, R. A.

Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

Mackenzie, Gregor

Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove)

McLaren, Martin

Torney, Tom

Deakins, Eric

McMaster, Stanley

Trew, Peter

Dean, Paul

McNamara, J. Kevin

Tugendhat, Christopher

Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

Madel, David

Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin

Douglas-Mann, Bruce

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

Varley, Eric G.

Driberg, Tom

Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

Dunnett, Jack

Marshall, Dr. Edmund

Wallace, George

Eadie, Alex

Mayhew, Christopher

Weatherill, Bernard

Ellis, Tom

Meacher, Michael

Whitehead, Phillip

Emery, Peter

Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

Ewing Harry

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

Eyre, Reginald

Milne, Edward

Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

Mitchell,Lt.-Col.C. (Aberdeenshire.W)

Winterton, Nicholas

Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

Money, Ernie

Worsley, Marcus

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

Fookes, Miss Janet

Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Foot, Michael

Neave, Airey

Mr. Michael English and

Foster, Sir John

Nott, John

Mr. Ian MacArthur.

Fowler, Norman

O'Halloran, Michael

NOES

Abse, Leo

Channon, Paul

Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

Adley, Robert

Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

Ford, Ben

Albu, Austen

Clegg, Walter

Forrester, John

Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

Cohen, Stanley

Fortescue, Tim

Allen, Scholefield

Concannon, J. D.

Galpern, Sir Myer

Ashton, Joe

Conlan, Bernard

Garrett, W. E.

Atkins, Humphrey

Coombs, Derek

Gilbert, Dr. John

Bagier, Gordon A. T.

Corfield, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick

Ginsburg, David (Dewsbury)

Balniel, Rt. Hon. Lord

Costain, A. P.

Glyn, Dr. Alan

Baxter, William

Crowder, F. P.

Goodhart, Philip

Bell, Ronald

Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

Goodhew, Victor

Benyon, W.

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen.Jack

Grant, George (Morpeth)

Biffen, John

Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

Gray, Hamish

Biggs-Davison, John

Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

Green, Alan

Boardman, H. (Leigh)

Dixon, Piers

Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

Boscawen, Hn. Robert

Doig, Peter

Gummer, J. Selwyn

Bradley, Tom

Elliott, R. W (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

Gurden, Harold

Brinton, Sir Tatton

Farr, John

Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

Faulds, Andrew

Hall-Davis A. G. F.

Cant, R. B.

Fell, Anthony

Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

584

585

Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

Mackie, John

Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

Hardy, Peter

Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

Harper, Joseph

McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

Maginnis, John E.

Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy(Caernarvon)

Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

Marten, Neil

Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

Hastings, Stephen

Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

Royle, Anthony

Hicks, Robert

Maude, Angus

Russell, Sir Ronald

Higgins Terence L.

Mawby, Ray

Shaw, Michael (Sc'bgh & Whitby)

Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

Mendelson, John

Sillars, James

Holland, Philip

Mills, Peter (Torrington)

Silverman, Julius

Holt, Miss Mary

Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

skeet, T. H. H.

Hooson, Emlyn

Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen)

soret, Harold

Hordern, Peter

Molyneaux, James

Spearing, Nigel

Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

Monks, Mrs. Connie

Spriggs, Leslie

Hughes, Roy (Newport)

Monro, Hector

Stainton, Keith

Hunt, John

Montgomery, Fergus

Stanbrook, Ivor

Hunter Adam

Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

Hutchison Michael Clark

Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)

James, David

Morrison, Charles

Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, w.)

Janner, Greville

Murton, Oscar

Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

Jeger, Mrs. Lena

Normanton, Tom

Stokes, John

Jennings, J.C. (Burton)

Oakes, Gordon

Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

Jessel, Toby

Ogden, Eric

Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

O'Malley, Brian

Tapsell, Peter

Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

Onslow, Cranley

Tebbit, Norman

Jopling, Michael

Orr, Capt L. P. S.

Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

Oswald, Thomas

Thomas, John straddling (Monmouth)

Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine

Owen, Idris (Stockport, N)

Trafford, Dr. Anthony

Kilfedder, James

Paisley, Rev. Ian

Urwin, T.W.

Kimball, Marcus

Parker, John (Dagenham)

van straubenzee, W. R.

Kinsey, J. R.

Parkinson, Cecil

Wainwright, Edwin

Knight, Mrs. Jill

Pavitt, Laurie

Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

Lamborn, Harry

Pendry, Tom

Wall Patrick

Langford-Holt, Sir John

Percival, Ian

Ward, Dame Irene

Latham, Arthur

Perry, Ernest G.

Weitzman, David

Le Marchant, Spencer

pink, R. Bonner

Wellbeloved, James

Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

Powell, Rt. Hn J. Enoch

Wiggin, Jerry

Lipton, Marcus

Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

Wilkinson, John

Lomas, Kenneth

Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

Loveridge, John

Quennell, Miss J. M.

Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

McAdden, Sir Stephen

Redmond, Robert

Mr charles Pannell and

McBride, Neil

Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

Sir Harmar Nicholls.

McCartney, Hugh

Question accordingly negatived.

NORTHERN IRELAND (PLANNING)
10.11 p.m.
The Minister of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Paul Channon): I beg to move,
That the Planning (Northern Ireland) Order, 1972, a draft of which was laid before this House on 9th August, be approved.
This draft order on town and country planning is a further instalment of the legislation arising from the recommendations of the Macrory review body on the reorganisation of local government in Northern Ireland. It is the first draft order to come before Parliament providing for the taking to the central administration of direct executive responsibility for a major service, although the House has already passed orders with the effect of appointing both education and health area boards.
In planning, as with water, sewerage and roads, if Parliament approves, the Ministry of Development will take on the function itself, operating through a number of local offices. The Macrory Committee preferred a representative administration to autonomous boards, but, because of the size, population and resources of Northern Ireland, and the need for consistency of operation, centralisation of regional services was made the main recommendation in the Macrory Report.
It is an important reform, transferring functions from the local authority level to a regional level. The opportunity is taken in this legislation to make some changes in existing planning law and to introduce, among other matters, powers enabling the Ministry of Development to undertake schemes of comprehensive development in town centres. The House will agree about this at least, that these new powers are particularly important and appropriate at this time in Northern Ireland because of the need for extensive redevelopment of obsolete commercial areas in Belfast and other towns, and there are also, alas, opportunities caused by the bombing campaign for urban renewal with comprehensive planning rather than the piecemeal redevelopment of existing buildings.
588
I should say at the outset that these proposals closely follow in all essential particulars the White Paper issued by the then Government of Northern Ireland in February, 1972. These were the proposals for legislation lodged then, for changes in the law relating to town and country planning. The proposals had wide circulation at the time and there was consultation about them. The order closely follows the recommendations of that White Paper, which was strongly supported by the then Government of Northern Ireland and which had an extremely favourable reception from most people connected with the problem in Northern Ireland at that time.
Mr. James Kilfedder: There is doubt about that.
Mr. Channon: My hon. Friend is entitled to his opinion. All I can do is say exactly what happened. The Macrory Report was unanimous, and that is not true of many review bodies in local government in other parts of the United Kingdom. The report was accepted by the Northern Ireland Parliament and by a wide variety of people both in Northern Ireland and outside. These recommendations go to implement it and that is all they do, apart from a few changes in existing planning law which I shall mention and some of which the House may think important.
Mr. Merlyn Rees: The hon. Gentleman has referred to the re-development portion of the order. Which part of the order is that? We have only 1½ hours to discuss the order, so this is not a matter which may be picked up later.
Mr. Channon: I think I can help the hon. Gentleman. Part III deals with development plans. That is the main portion dealing with the point he has in mind. If I have it wrong I will come back to it.
The significance of the order goes beyond town centres and comprehensive redevelopment. I think that an effective and up-to-date land use planning system must also provide opportunities for ordinary members of the public to be informed about and to influence decisions before they are taken. I think the system

589
proposed in the draft order will not only be effective but will ensure openness, consistency and fairness.
Existing planning law, as hon. Members representing Northern Ireland constituencies will know, derives mainly from the Planning and Housing (Northern Ireland) Act, 1931, and the Planning (Interim Development) Act (Northern Ireland) 1944, although there has been subsequent legislation on planning compensation and some provisions to alleviate planning blight.
At present, responsibility for both the preparation of planning schemes and development control rests with local planning authorities, which are the county, county borough and urban district councils and the Belfast Harbour Commissioners in respect of land held by them for the purposes of the harbour undertaking. The Ministry of Development is the planning authority for the areas designated for the purposes of the New Towns Act (Northern Ireland), 1965; that is, as hon. Members will be aware, Craigavon, Londonderry, Antrim and Ballymena.
Development control has been the main function of planning authorities since 1944. Some 16,000 planning applications are made annually in Northern Ireland, of which about 90 per cent. are approved. As the law stands, following refusal of permission or on receiving an approval subject to conditions, an applicant may appeal either to the Ministry of Development or—a provision which does not apply here—to an independent person.
At the moment there is no statutory development plan system in Northern Ireland. I should draw the attention of the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) to Part VII as well if he is interested in the redevelopment. Therefore, the Ministry of Development, with the agreement and co-operation of local planning authorities, has prepared a series of non-statutory area plans for the guidance of both private and public development. Taking into account area plans presently in preparation, coverage of the Province has been largely completed.
Hon. Members will know that a great deal of useful work has been and is being done in planning in Northern Ireland. I am sure that hon. Members will take the opportunity of paying tribute
590
to all those councillors and officials who have contributed to this position in the past.
The draft order makes changes in the present system. Much in it will be familiar to hon. Members, although there are variations from the English and Scottish planning systems. The most striking feature is the proposal that there should be only one planning authority in Northern Ireland—the Ministry of Development. That was one of the most crucial recommendations made by the Macrory Committee in 1970. I think it was widely welcomed—in deference to my hon. Friend the Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder)—by nearly all sections of opinion in Northern Ireland and also by informed opinion in Great Britain. Certainly both the major parties in this House welcomed it at the time.
Following the publication of the Macrory Report, the Ministry of Development paper on the proposals for legislation was published in February by our predecessors. Consultation then took place with all interested parties, including local authorities. The proposals were well received and the comments made were taken into consideration in framing the Order, which is based on the Ministry of Development paper of last February.
The proposals for the draft order were published at the beginning of July. They were again widely circulated to all interested parties and were laid here before the House rose for the Summer Recess—two months ago.
As the order stands, local authority executive planning powers would be repealed and replaced by a consultative role to be exercised by the new district councils concerning all aspects of planning, including development plans, comprehensive development and individual planning decisions.
The executive rôle for the Ministry in planning was recommended by the Macrory review body and it must be looked at in the light of the size and scale of Northern Ireland and of similar proposals for water, sewerage and road services for each of which Macrory recommended and the previous Northern Ireland administration accepted, as do we, that the Ministry would become the sole executive authority.
Rev. Ian Paisley: Is it not a fact that although planning authorities consisted of the county council and the urban district councils, the final appeal was always to the Ministry of Development and often there was an independent inspector or a person appointed by the Ministry? His recommendation was not necessarily accepted and the Ministry of Development always had the power to overrule any decision made in regard to planning.
Mr. Channon: I shall check what I have said and if I have misled the House I shall correct it, but I think that the right of appeal lay not only to the Ministry of Development, as it does in the rest of the United Kingdom. In Northern Ireland there was a special feature that there could be an appeal to an independent person who, I believe, was then appointed by the Minister of Development to hear the planning appeal. In these circumstances, I believe that the decision of the independent person was final.
Rev. Ian Paisley: I would ask the Minister to confirm this later because I think he will find that even though the independent person was appointed the Ministry still had the right to reject or accept, and in many cases the independent inspector's report has been asked for by parties who felt aggrieved that his report was not accepted.
Mr. Channon: If I have misled the House I shall seek an opportunity of correcting what I have said. The hon. Member is an expert in this field and I may have it wrong, although I think I am right.
The appeals are an important feature of the new proposals, but before I deal with them I should explain that the intention is to decentralise decision-making in this sphere as far as possible, and it seems likely that there will be at least several places in Northern Ireland at which professional planning staff will be stationed, namely Belfast, Ballymena, Craigavon, Londonderry, Coleraine, Downpatrick and Omagh.
One further feature is Article 15 which provides for publication in the local Press of planning applications. Responsibility for publication lies with the Ministry and a small fee will be charged. That is con-
592
tained in Article 14. The prescribed fee is expected to be about £2 per application. A minumum of 14 days must expire before the Ministry can determine an application and any representations made by neighbours or members of the public within that time must be taken into account. That is a very important advance on what occurs in other parts of the United Kingdom where only a restricted range of proposals has to be advertised.
There seems to be some misunderstanding about who can actually apply for planning permission. As in Great Britain, there is no restriction as to who may apply. One result of the Ministry becoming sole planning authority and taking all planning decisions at first instance is that the present appellate function of the Ministry would no longer be consistent with the new situation. On the other hand control over individual planning decisions can have an important effect on planning policies.
Resolution of this dilemma resulted in a right of appeal against adverse Ministry planning decisions being provided by Article 23 which deals with appeals except in those cases where the application is of such special importance that there is a special procedure under Article 22 which involves the opportunity of a local public inquiry.
The appeals system should be and should be seen to be independent of the Ministry. Therefore, I should draw attention to Part XII, which refers to Schedule 3, the Part which sets up the planning appeal commission. The Commission will consist of both chartered town planners and lay members with other experience so as to bring to bear judgment other than that of the professional planner, important though that will be. They will be appointed by the Governor of Northern Ireland, and during the operation of the Northern Ireland (Temporary Provisions) Act this function will be exercised by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.
Among its functions will be hearing and deciding planning appeals. Its decision will be corporate and final. It is envisaged that the hearing will always be by a planner member, but the Chairman might in addition assign other or perhaps all the Commissioners to sit in

593
on any hearing according to the nature and complexity of the matter. If the House would like further details of the Commission I shall be delighted to give them, as I recognise that this is an important feature of the order.
Hon. Members will note that the Commission is involved in a number of instances throughout the draft order, at times in a decision-making capacity, as with planning appeals, and at other times with power to recommend only, as with development plan inquiries.
Hon. Member will agree that along with development control the other major pillar of the planning system is the preparation of development plans. I am told that at the time Macrory reported consideration was given to the adoption of the new English structure and local plan system, but because of the existence of a single regional planning authority and the size and scale of Northern Ireland, it was decided that such a system would not be appropriate. After all, a structure plan in Northern Ireland would clearly cover the whole Province. The Northern Ireland Government had already developed a broad regional economic and physical development strategy, which, with the assistance of outside planning and economic consultants, is reviewed at five-yearly intervals. This plan has been seen to be a considerable success.
The non-statutory area plans of the Ministry of Development are drawn up within the guidelines of the regional development programme, and it is envisaged that a single-tier development system will be adequate, given the existence of the broad regional strategy. The functions of these development plans, as with local plans in England, will be to set out proposals and planning policies, to show areas of major change and firm land acquisition areas, and to provide opportunities for the public to be informed about and make representations about the plan proposals both before the plan is finalised and again at the formal public inquiry.
A very important feature of the Order is the setting up of a Historic Buildings Council, with broadly similar functions to those of the other Historic Buildings Councils in the rest of the United Kingdom.
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The final aspect on which I should like to comment at this stage is comprehensive development. Under the new towns legislation in Northern Ireland, powers to undertake town centre developments were given to New Town Commissions. Plans are being or have already been drawn up at Craigavon, Londonderry, Antrim and Ballymena, which are to be implemented partly by the Commissions and partly by private enterprise, working within the Commissions' overall plans. Implementation of these existing plans will be carried on by the Ministry after the winding up of the Commissions.
Outside new town areas the only general redevelopment powers available are those under the Housing Acts. These powers are very restricted and provide only for slum clearance and redevelopment of areas the major part of which consist of unfit housing.
General powers to undertake urban renewal are required in Northern Ireland. Because of the need for comprehensive planning for associated roads, housing, water and other services it is proposed that the Ministry of Development should be responsible for this function. This is provided for in Part VII of the draft Order, which provides for the Ministry to prepare and undertake development schemes. Areas for which development schemes are envisaged should be foreshadowed in the appropriate development plan, just as proposed action areas are shown in the structure plan under the English system.
This is an important order, an order over which there has been considerable discussion and consultation. It was strongly supported by our predecessors, and should commend itself to the House. In what has been a tragic week for Northern Ireland some may think it inappropriate to try to talk about other things than the desperate security situation and the tragedies in Northern Ireland. That is not my view. My view is that we should also go ahead with planning and other matters, as we have dealt with education and health earlier this Session, to try to help make the framework for a reform of local government, which I think has been widely welcomed in Northern Ireland, certainly by nearly all those to whom I have talked. I hope that it will be widely welcomed in this House as well.
Mr. Kilfedder: My hon. Friend referred to Article 7. Subsection (2) says:
"The Ministry may by order adopt as a development plan, in whole or in part and with or without modifications, any plan prepared before the commencement of this Order with respect to the development or other use of land, notwithstanding …"
Does the term "land" include water? It is most important that this order should apply to reservoirs and other areas of water.
Mr. Channon: I hope my hon. Friend will allow me to reply to that later. It is an important question and I do not immediately have the answer.
This is an important order and I hope that the House will allow us to proceed with it. I believe in the reform of the structure of local government in Northern Ireland. I believe, as I am sure the House does, that it is a step forward. The reform has been widely welcomed both in Northern Ireland and here.
10.32 p.m.
Mr. Merlyn Rees: I begin my contribution to this necessarily short debate with the comment that it would be surprising if the people of Northern Ireland were very worried tonight about rates and planning, but of course they are vital subjects to the community. They are important to the social development of the Province and warrant our close attention because, as we all find in our constituencies, planning affects people and too often it is too late when we find out in what way it does affect them and that the intention of the local authorities and the legislature when the parent legislation was passed ignores some important aspects.
The two orders we are debating tonight come under the procedure laid down in the Northern Ireland (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1972, and therefore we have only one and a half hours for debate. Implicit in the hon. Gentleman's argument, because it is implicit in the Act, is that this procedure will be used for orders which are of vital importance to the running of the Province.
I want briefly to say something which, if we were not so restricted in time it would be worth making at much greater length. The fact is that one and a half hours is just not good enough for an important document such as this. It is
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the equivalent of a Bill which would take a great deal of time in this House and in Committee. One makes every effort in study and research but I for one do not feel adequate to raise in five or ten minutes all the issues that should be raised. I say this now because in the new Session we shall have to find better procedures for dealing with Northern Ireland legislation. We have to find a way whereby those who know Northern Ireland and its problems intimately can raise matters in the House and in Committee, when Members with local knowledge are able to dig into a subject and show Ministers that the approach made by the Government is the wrong one. An order such as this, for example, needs not new procedure but should be treated as a Bill going through the House.
The Northern Ireland problem is far too serious to make narrow party points. It is not in that spirit that I raise the matters to which I wish to draw attention. It is the function of the legislature to dig deeply, because complete wisdom is not given to any of us. Those of us who have taken part in Committee stages know that we have often reached a point when we say "I had not thought of that aspect; I had not even considered it before"—and that is how the process works.
I raise these general matters not in any carping spirit, but I feel that in the new Session we must turn our minds to a new approach in dealing with legislation of this kind in a deeper way.
The Minister of State said that there had been considerable discussion in Northern Ireland, but it must be realised that this is among the first, if not in fact the first, of the orders which were not discussed at Stormont on Second Reading or in some other way. We know from the Written Answer given on 15th May that there are six orders in connection with local government reform and other orders concerned with drainage matters. I wish to ask the Minister which other orders are to be considered in the near future. It is something of a surprise that we have to delve into these planning matters in this way. If early warning were given in the OFFICIAL REPORT that these matters were coming up for discussion, we should have longer to do our homework.

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I was recently asked by the Secretary of State to sit in at a meeting of the Advisory Commission, and I found it most interesting. May I ask what is the role of that Commission in terms of this order? I presumed the Advisory Commission had looked at it, but I wondered whether any changes which it had suggested had been incorporated in the order.
These orders arise from the recommendations of Macrory on local government reform; there has been a reallocation of power and responsibility for the different services. Will the Minister also consider publishing in the OFFICIAL REPORT a simple breakdown of which services have been allocated to the local authorities and area boards? I am seeking information to enable us more intelligently to examine these orders as they come before the House.
I wish to ask a number of questions. Article 3(2)(b) gives the Ministry power to undertake studies on
"the size, composition and distribution of the population of an area".
Is this a new function of the Department for which they will need to have extra staff qualified to carry out the studies?
I also understand that the Ministry of Development has opened a Development Advice Centre which may offer financial inducements for households to settle permanently in any of the five growth centres in the Greater Belfast Area. Where are these centres, how is the scheme working, and what other plans are there to avoid too heavy a concentration of population in one area of Northern Ireland? Even brief visits to the Province reveal the existence of an imbalance of population and activity in the north so that other areas do not get as much activity.
I have a question to put on Article 11 which contains a definition of the term "development" and which is the kernel of the order. How does this definition differ from that previously used in Northern Ireland? Is it now identical with that used in the comparable Acts in Great Britain?
Article 25(1)(a) provides that development for which planning permission is granted
"must be begun within five years of the date on which the permission is granted".
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On 12th October, 1972, at the Conservative Party Conference the Secretary of State for the Environment said that he wanted local authorities to try to reduce this period of five years substantially and that on applications to him a much stricter time limit would be imposed. This was thought to be an important point to put forward at the Conservative Party Conference. It is not mirrored in this draft planning order. However, if it is too late to take it into account, may we assume that the Ministry will take the point made by the Secretary of State for the Environment and act accordingly? I presume that the Ministry is enabled to do so by Article 25(1)(b). The question of five years is one which needs to be raised. Is it not too long a period to allow someone to act upon permission granted to him?
A subject which is not of world-shattering importance but which has been put to me arises on Articles 31 to 36 and 82 to 87, which refer to buildings of special architectural or historic interest. In my area, which is an area of clearance, from time to time there are revealed buildings of historical importance that the community wants to save. It is curious what a wide variety of buildings they turn out to be.
In Newry the early nineteenth century customs house on the canal has been destroyed by a bomb. In Londonderry the Georgian building on the city wall has been seriously damaged by an explosion. The customs house in Newry was an income tax office and in Londonderry the house on the city wall was the local office of the Belfast Telegraph. To some degree, to protect Ulster's cultural heritage we should be more careful in these sad times about what we put in these historical buildings. There are most important buildings in the North of Ireland. Are Articles 31 to 36 sufficiently strong to protect them?
Article 54(1) specifies the cases when the Ministry may acquire land. The authority to local authorities and others all over the United Kingdom to acquire land is an important point that the legislature should watch. Are the cases identical to those specified in the comparable Acts in the rest of the United Kingdom?
Article 100 provides for grants for research and bursaries. This is a welcome

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provision. How much money is it intended to make available over the next 12 months?
Article 105 talks about advisory bodies or committees. Can the Minister give some examples of that? In Government in Whitehall we are given to appointing advisory bodies and committees at the drop of a hat. They proliferate and they are set up with the best of intentions but I sometimes wonder whether in the course of time we lose sight of why they were set up. I am sceptical of bodies of this kind. Nevertheless I accept that on the small scale they are necessary. Can the Minister advise us as to what is involved?
There is only one point I wish to raise on Schedule 3, concerning the constitution of the planning appeals commission. Will the hearings be in public and will the reports be made public? Schedule 6 extends to development plans the right of an owner of certain blighted property to require the relevant authority to purchase that property at its unblighted price, this being a right, I am given to understand, created by the Planning and Land Compensation Act (Northern Ireland) 1971.
It has been put to me that property may become depreciated in value on the private market because of bombing activities in the Province. Will the provision in this order cover such a situation? On my reading of this it seems that it may not. I wish that we had an opportunity to discuss this because the depreciated value of property in Northern Ireland is a matter that has arisen a great deal in the last two or three years and is something to which we must all put our minds.
In article 7 we talked about the general development of city centres and so on. There is a great deal of this being done in this country. I visited Manchester the other evening and saw the enormous amount being done there. It mirrors what is being done in the city of Leeds. I feel strongly on one point. I hope that in this draft planning order there is sufficient power for the authorities to consult the people of the area. I am not speaking for Manchester now but I find in too many places that the people in the area find out too late what is going on. The planning development
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that takes place is often done at the instigation of planners with the very best of intentions but without considering the needs of the people living in the area.
There is one other general question—house prices. I gather these have always been significantly lower in Northern Ireland than in the rest of the United Kingdom. However, even in Ulster, house prices have risen considerably and according to the figures issued by the Nationwide Building Society, which I think all hon. Members receive from time to time, the percentage increase in house prices during the last five years, from the second quarter of 1967 to the second quarter of 1972 is 46 per cent. for new houses, 47 per cent. for modern existing houses and 35 per cent. for older existing houses. The average price of a new house in Northern Ireland is now over £5,000 and the average value of the site is £1,163. The site value as a proportion of the whole price is 22·2 per cent.
This last figure is higher than comparable figures in the rest of the United Kingdom. The proportion in Scotland is 14·3 per cent., in Wales 19·3 per cent. and in North-East England 19 per cent. In Ulster, therefore, the price of land relevant to the price of homes is much higher, which is not something one would expect working from theory. What measures is the Ministry of Development taking to deal with the price of land and hence of new house prices in Northern Ireland? There are many more questions I could ask, given time, but I would need a far different procedure to do so. This is the purpose of the House of Commons, to go into the small details of legislation of this kind. We shall have to put our minds to considering a different procedure for investigating orders of this nature before the new Session gets under way.
In the past the Minister has seen fit to send me Written Answers to my questions. I should be happy with that on this occasion. But it is important that all of us, even those who are not from Northern Ireland, should get the necessary information in order to build up a stock of knowledge which will stand us in good stead in the months ahead.
10.50 p.m.
Mr. James Kilfedder: We were forced to accept having debates restricted to a time limit of one and a half hours for a draft order which had

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already been through some stages in the Stormont Parliament. To the best of my knowledge—and here I am in agreement with the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees)—we were promised a proper debate on orders which had not been through the local Parliament. This order has not been considered by the local Members of Parliament, and yet we are expected to allow it to go through after a cursory debate. This is by any standard a complicated and detailed order which requires very careful consideration and lengthy debate. What makes the position worse is that no explanatory document has been issued which would help Members with the consideration of the order. The way in which the order has been presented to the House is not in the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland.
My hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) has a number of points to make and therefore I shall keep my comments fairly brief.
I want first to raise the question of rights of way. The Ulster Society for the Preservation of the Countryside and other amenity organisations have, for a great many years, been pressing the Ministry of Development at Stormont and its predecessor the Ministry of Health and Local Government to introduce legislation dealing with rights of way but without success. In Great Britain the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act, 1949, deals with this matter. Naturally there was a great demand for it here; the pressure of population was all that much greater.
Under that Act a duty was laid on the road authority, normally the county council, to have all the rights of way and alleged rights of way surveyed. In this work the rambling clubs played a big part. When a right was disputed the matter was settled one way or the other by the council at public expense. All established rights of way were then signposted with the notice "Public Footpath". The existence of the right of way was recorded and the register was open for inspection by anyone. The Act provided in addition that when considered necessary paths could be closed and also that new paths could be created where there was a public need.
Twenty years experience of the Act has thrown up some weaknesses, but its
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enormous value has never been disputed. We in Northern Ireland demand that we should have the benefit of similar legislation. I regret that the Government have failed to include it in this order because I do not believe that our demand is unreasonable.
The amenity organisations have been pressing the Government for legisltion ever since the Planning Advisory Board published its Report The Ulster Countryside" in 1946–26 years ago. In that Report the Board stated that
"the first essential action is amendment of the law relating to rights of way and the provision of machinery to determine any existing cases in dispute".
Despite that and the Ministry of Development's expressed hope in March, 1968, that it would deal with the matter in a comprehensive planning Bill, four years later we have this order and no provision is made for it. This is a disgraceful state of affairs.
Provision should be made for the creation of long-distance footpaths, particularly at this time when the making of such paths could provide valuable employment with a high labour content, and do so in country districts where it is most needed.
I wonder whether the Minister is in a position to say whether the term "land" in article 7(2) includes water.
Mr. Channon: "Land" includes land covered by water, according to the Northern Ireland Interpretation Act, 1954.
Mr. Kilfedder: I am deeply grateful. That saves me taking up the time of the House.
Article 11(2)(d) deals with planning control. Forestry should come within normal planning regulation. Large-scale forestry operations, particularly when they involve the planting of thousands of acres of moorland with conifers, can have a profound effect on the landscape and should be subject to ordinary planning procedures. The provision in parks of cafés, museums, office blocks and interpretative centres and the provision of large car parks should also be subject to planning control.
Article 15(a) and article 37(4) deal with the notification of planning applications. I ask the Minister to say that

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notice should be given in one of the main newspapers in the Province, or in the Belfast Gazette, and that notice of a planning application or designation of a conservation area should appear on the site so that passers by may see that a planning application has been made, for not everybody reads the advertisements in the Press—certainly I do not read the newspapers that carefully.
Article 31(2) deals with buildings of special architectural or historical interest. Paragraph (2)(a) refers to the exterior of historical buildings, but it is equally important to consider their interiors.
Article 32(5)(a) deals with the control of works for the demolition of, alteration to, or extension of listed buildings and says that it shall be a defence to prove that the works were urgently necessary in the interests of safety or health. Buildings seldom become unsafe or unhealthy suddenly.
Mr. Gerard Fitt: Hear, hear.
Mr. Kilfedder: I am glad to welcome the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) to the debate. We await his contribution on this important order. I know that he wishes to talk about blood dripping from people's hands, but let him make a contribution on an important topic. It is the first time the hon. Member has been in for a debate on an order.
Once a building has been demolished, it is difficult to prove whether it was unsafe and the argument that it was unsafe could be used falsely as justification for demolition. I ask the Minister to look again at this and to see whether it is possible to bring in a change later making provision for an independent opinion to he obtained before a listed building is destroyed.
Finally, dealing with mineral development, I regret that we have not had in this order—I think I am correct—provision for dealing with phased restoration of mineral workings.
I feel that all mineral working applications should be submitted with provision made for a suitable working programme for phased restoration of a site and that planning authorities should ask for this. It is essential that when mineral work-
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ing has been completed, the site is restored and is not left an eyesore for the community.
I certainly dislike the way this order has been introduced in this House and I cannot support it.
11.2 p.m.
Mr. James Molyneaux: On previous occasions since the suspension of Stormont, Ulster hon. Members of this House on this side have made their contributions to Northern Ireland legislation in the interests of all the people of the Province.
From time to time we have offered advice within the limits of the Order-in-Council procedure as to how legislation might be improved and to that extent we have tried to facilitate government. It gives me no pleasure tonight to say that we have parted company with the Government because this order is so fundamental and contains so many objectionable features that, deprived of the power to amend it, we are left with one alternative—total rejection.
Since 1963 when it was proposed in the Matthew Plan that a central planning authority should be set up, considerable doubt has been felt regarding the viability of the replacement of the present two-tier planning administration by a single autonomous authority. Many of the provisions included in this order indicate all too clearly that those doubts were fully justified. The order is not a particularly coherent piece of legislation and its full intent can be appreciated only when regulations which may be made thereunder are available. However, this order gives sufficient indication of the vital changes in planning administration which will result to alarm even the most complacent.
In Part III, under "Development Plans", we find that under the order the Ministry may prepare a development plan for any area as opposed to the obligation imposed on local planning authorities, under the 1944 Act, to prepare planning schemes for the whole of their areas. This appears to be a retrogressive step. The form and scope of development plans is not defined and is left to be dealt with by regulations to be made at a later date. Publicity and consultation in respect of the preparation of development plans is to be carried out where,

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in the opinion of the Ministry, it is desirable.
An inquiry held before the appeals commission shall afford opportunity for objection to the development plan, and before adopting the plan the Ministry shall consider these objections and the report of the appeals commission. This is provided for in Articles 4, 5, 6 and 7. This means that a decision of a single authority can impose a development plan on any part of the Province.
Genuine attempts by at least one county council in Northern Ireland have been made to secure the re-wording of the provision, particularly Article 4. Those attempts received a reply from the Ministry of Development which seemed to assert that the Ministry is right, that it is not necessary to consider any criticism and that it is merely a matter of choosing words in which criticism is waved aside.
In part IV, Planning Control, the order makes agricultural buildings subject to planning control for the first time. That is a highly undesirable feature. It is utterly wrong that a planner in a far-away office should dictate the design and siting of purpose-built buildings for a specialised industry when the farmer will have to endure the results of faulty decisions imposed in matters which are vital to the workability and economy of his holding.
Article 14(1)(c) provides that payment must be made for the privilege of submitting an application for consent under the order. That is likely to affect the judgment of a developer in deciding whether his proposed development is of a type requiring consent, and is a further cause of frustration to add to the delays and obstacles which any planning measure brings in its train.
Provision may be made by regulation requiring the Ministry to consult the district council and others before determining an application, but no reference is made to procedure to resolve a difference of opinion between council and ministry. Applications for planning permission are to be advertised in the Press, thus breaking down the accepted status of an application as a confidential matter until a decision thereon is made. That is likely further to inflate the value of land for development by attracting further offers of purchase by competing interests.
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Even if one agrees with the objectives of publication, surely the purpose is defeated by the requirement to lodge objections within 14 days. It is curious that this compares unfavourably with the period of two months which the Ministry allows itself to decide whether an application should be treated as a "major planning application" and the unlimited period which it gives itself to decide whether any particular development requires planning.
I appreciate the need for avoiding delay, but the longer waiting period could be used by various technical officers to make their investigations. It need not necessarily be a dormant period. Article 20(1) provides that decisions on applications can be made personal to the applicant only, which can be useful in dealing with proposals related to alternative sites. The Ministry may, in connection with a submission which they consider to constitute a major planning application, serve notice on the applicant to that effect. In such cases an inquiry may be held before the Appeals Commission whose report and other representations shall be taken into account before the Ministry makes its decision which shall be final on the application.
That is by far the most serious aspect of the order as it makes the Ministry, as a planning authority, the sole arbiter of applications of its own selection without any right of appeal. That must finally divorce the order from any pretensions to democratic legislation. There is a fee, an unstated amount, to be paid for the privilege of submitting an application or an appeal—is that fair or just? In Part V Additional Planning Control, provision is made for the compilating of lists by the Ministry of buildings of special architectural or historical interest which, once so listed, shall be subject to a more rigid development control. But there does not appear to be any provision for the receipt of objections to, or applications for, such listing.
The meaning is obscure in Article 31(7), unless the word "may" has been used in error instead of "any". If that is so, it highlights the necessity not only of making appeal and other decisions final but of making them capable of clarification should all the parties interested therein fail to agree as to the exact meaning.

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Has an error been made? It is of some significance. In paragraph (7) the words are,
"may object or structure fixed to a building".
It does not seem to make sense. If it be an error, how can it be rectified? We as Members are prevented from making Amendments. Do the Government retain that privilege to themselves?
Now, Part VI, Enforcement. This limits the period within which enforcement action can be taken to four years from the date of the contravention, and it makes no special provision for enforcement against contraventions of previous planning control. This is Article 42(3). In view of the time which has elapsed since local planning authorities started pressing for new legislation in the matter, this seems a serious omission which will lead to the authorisation of much contravening development detrimental to sound planning standards.
It is inevitable in a Measure of this nature that legal processes should feature prominently, and there are constant references thereto. This brings me to what I regard as a fundamental weakness in the proposed structure. The county councils have in the past been served by very efficient legal departments. The county councils are to be abolished on 1st April, 1973. As a sitting councillor, perhaps I am biased, but no one seems to know what, if anything, will be put in the place of those legal departments.
In the present situation, one would expect that those who are presently performing those functions and providing the services would be those who would make the decisions as to how existing talents and services could best be used, but it looks as though each Government Department wants to create its own little legal empire. The Civil Service lawyer has always played a minor backroom rôle in the administration of his Department. The full-time local government lawyer, on the other hand, is an active participant and is both an administrator and an executive. He is accessible and he is accountable. Unless such officers are retained and their Departments remain integrated, there will be little hope, I fear, of avoiding the total collapse of the entire structure proposed in the order.
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Unless the new system is fully and properly serviced from a legal point of view, it will, I fear, quickly attract contempt and ridicule. I hope that this folly will be avoided and that existing legal departments will be utilised to provide effective services for the boards, committees and Government Departments.
On a day when we have solemnly spent six hours on a comparatively trivial argument about whether the proceedings of the House should be televised, we are now asked to rush through in 90 minutes a Measure which will drastically affect the everyday lives of one and a half million people for years to come. It is small wonder that there is confusion in Northern Ireland. I have evidence of this in a letter written by the solicitor to a county council, who says that the fact that the Ministry has been asked to bring these matters
"to the attention of the Legislature by whatever are the appropriate means"
is an indication of the feeling of frustration and futility experienced by local authorities. To date, I am unaware of any steps having been taken by the Ministry to bring the points raised to the attention of the legislature.
It is with the same sense of futility that I bring these points before this House, knowing full well that it is impotent, except for the power to reject, which I hope will be exercised tonight.
11.15 p.m.
Rev. Ian Paisley: Northern Ireland has had a very bitter and terrible experience this week. I am sure that the House will be glad to note that there is comparative peace this evening in the City of Belfast. The people of Northern Ireland will wonder why this House has no time to consider those very pressing problems that afflict them, but has time, 90 minutes, to deal with a very complicated matter concerning the whole of planning and development for the future of the Province.
As a Member of this House representing a Northern Ireland constituency, must solemnly register my protest at the lack of good faith on the part of the Government, for we were promised that legislation that had had no discussion at Stormont before its prorogation would not be dealt with in the way in which

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we are asked to deal with this important draft order this evening.
This draft order is of great importance. I agree with the Minister that it ought to be considered; but so often I feel that the Government, on issues affecting Northern Ireland, have their priorities absolutely wrong. The order affects people, and people are very important.
Those who drafted the order—I have read it very carefully—seem to think that vast areas of Northern Ireland are wanted for development by speculative builders or others who want to develop in that manner. Is the House aware that the vast majority of applications coming before the planning authorities are made by people who want to build their own homes in which to live?
Why are so many people in Northern Ireland anxious to build their own homes? Because in the past local authorities have failed to provide them with such homes.
I am absolutely opposed to personal applications by people desiring to build their own homes being blazoned in the newspapers of Northern Ireland. This is a personal matter. Hundreds of my constituents who have applied for houses have been told, "You might get a house in five years." Now, when they want to build houses of their own, is their privacy to be invaded because the fact must be blazoned in the areas where they live? Northern Ireland covers quite a small area and is cursed with parochialism. We all know that. Everybody knows everybody else's business. Why should the whole neighbourhood be told that Mary and Jack have entered into negotiations to buy a piece of land on which they want to build? I am opposed to that.
If it were some vast development, certainly advertise it and let everybody know that some speculator wants to develop land in this way. But for the ordinary individual it is an invasion of his privacy and must be opposed.
For example, in the village of Ahogill, in my constituency, not one brick was laid for 20 years. There is therefore a vast number of people on the housing list who cannot get a house. They are prepared to spend their money to build themselves a home and that would relieve the Government of the responsibility of
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spending the ratepayers' and the taxpayers' money on housing. Those people should be encouraged to build their own homes but the planning authorities in the past have been reticent to give planning permission because of a hold up in overall Government thinking on how Northern Ireland should be developed.
In the past two years I have personally appeared at more planning appeals in Northern Ireland than any other hon. Member. It is a problem which causes great anxiety in my constituency. I discovered that the planners have two grounds for rejecting applications—sporadic development and lack of amenities. The Government would have got their priorities right tonight if they had dealt with drainage and sewerage and the provision of facilities in Northern Ireland before they had entered into discussion on planning. Surely the basic services should be undertaken. I am familiar with the position about water and with the Bill that passed through Stormont But drainage and sewerage is creating great difficulty in Northern Ireland.
Tonight we are writing the obituary notice of the Commissions. The order will destroy them. People had reservations about them when they were set up I believed that perhaps they could not do the task they were set. But any right-thinking person must pay them tribute and I pay it as one who was not always in favour of them. The Commission in my area of Ballymena was not acceptable at first to the people there. There was a great difference between the town council and the Commission. But the Commission has done tremendous spade work in the development of Antrim, Ballymena and the surrounding area. Now the Commission, geared as it is to the development of the area, is to be destroyed as a planning entity.
The Ministry of Development in Belfast cannot handle the work of that Commission and it cannot handle the work of the Londonderry Commission, or the Commission in Armagh. It is all very well for the Minister to hammer the Macrory Report down on the Dispatch Box in support of the proposals, but that report never envisaged the prorogation of Stormont. All its planning was to be tied into Stormont, perhaps an enlarged Stormont with extra powers.

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There is another matter which the House should consider. The chief basic industry in Northern Ireland is agriculture. The area I represent is agricultural as well as industrial. Very wisely there was special legislation for the building of houses on farms. If a farmer wanted his son to have a home on his farm the application went first to the Ministry of Agriculture. If the Ministry considered that the farmer was entitled to have a son who worked with him on the farm also living with him on the farm, it issued a certificate which accompanied and supported the application for planning permission. That right is now being destroyed, and the farmer finds that even though he owns 100 acres of land his son has no extra advantage when he wants to build a home on his father's property to work on the farm with his father.
There are many things in the order that I would like to speak about, but other hon. Members want to speak, and it would not be right for me to monopolise the time. But these matters deeply trouble me. There are things in the order that seem very peculiar in the present situation. For example, a person who cuts down a tree or the top of a tree could be fined £400. Men are being cut in pieces in Northern Ireland today, yet we are talking about a fine not exceeding £400 for removing one tree.
Many aspects of this draft legislation are ill considered. I agree with the spokesman for the official Opposition, the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees), that we should have had a Bill before the House so that we could have a Second Reading and Committee stage and deal with all these points.
I recognise that it is hardly fair for the House to expect the Minister to answer all the points we make. He could not do it. I doubt whether he could be briefed in the time available. But there are some drastic items in the Bill. For example, we find that Article 10 can destroy at a stroke Articles 4 to 9. It says:
"Without prejudice to Articles 4 to 9, the Ministry may make regulations with respect to the form and content of development plans and with respect to the procedure to be followed in connection with their preparation, adoption, alteration, repeal and replacement."
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We are asked tonight to give our blessing to this draft. When I turn to its back pages I find a number of enactments that are to be repealed. I asked the Vote Office tonight for copies of the Acts in question, and it could not supply me with them. We are asked to deal with something on which we cannot even get the information. We are asked to deal with Acts and cannot even get copies of some of the Acts that are to be amended. Therefore, we find ourselves in a very difficult position.
I feel that my only way of protesting that the Government have not had time to get their priorities right and deal with issues that are troubling us all, then presenting us with such an important draft order in this way, is to vote against it. I do not disagree with many of the matters in it. It includes good and right suggestions, but I cannot vote for an amendment or change it in any way. It is not amendable, and we cannot make it amendable. Therefore, I must cast my vote against it in protest.
Mr. Stanley R. McMaster rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. Does the hon. Gentleman know that this debate must finish at 20 minutes to twelve? There is the question of the Minister's reply. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will bear that in mind.
11.29 p.m.
Mr. McMaster: I shall certainly do so, Mr. Speaker, I shall be very brief.
I have made a list of a vast number of detailed amendments to the order which should be considered by the House. We are presented with an order, published only seven or eight Sittings days ago, which stretches to 67 pages and contains 110 separate Articles, and seven detailed Schedules. We are asked to consider it in an hour and a half, knowing that none of the objections which we raise can be dealt with by the Government, that none of them can result in a considered reply or an amendment. My hon. Friends have already raised a number of points, many of which are important. For example, my hon. Friend the Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder) raised the question of the inside of historic buildings. We should like to debate whether the inside of historic buildings should be included.

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I should like to know from my hon. Friend the Minister of State what arrangements were made for consultation before the order was drafted. Were Members of Stormont consulted? More important, why has the order, which has not been considered by Stormont, been presented here before we know what the future is for Northern Ireland? The order relates to the Macrory Report and depends completely on, among other things, local government in Northern Ireland. What is to be the form of local government in Northern Ireland? When are the local government elections in Northern Ireland to be held? Will the Government set out in their Green Paper the future of Stormont, which is vital to the order? How can we seriously consider an important order such as this in the time allocated to us when so much of it turns on other matters which have not been presented to the House?
I could go on at great length but in view of what you have said, Mr. Speaker, I leave it at that. I feel that we cannot tonight, in the time allocated, deal adequately with this legislation.
11.31 p.m.
Mr. Channon: I think the House will forgive me if I try to reply to the debate, because there is only a comparatively short time left.
Mr. Kevin McNamara rose—
Mr. Channon: I hope that the hon. Member will forgive me if I do not give way.
Hon. Members have raised a number of important points. I will try to reply to as many of them as I can and I will, of course, write to hon. Members on points to which I do not have an opportunity to reply.
I must say to hon. Members that this order which we are asked to consider tonight is an essential feature of the Macrory reform for local government in Northern Ireland. It is possible to be either in favour of the reform of local government in Northern Ireland or against it, but one cannot both be in favour of local government in Northern Ireland and vote against the order—I dare say it can be done, but not in logic—because if the order is not passed, one of the most
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important aspects of local government, one of the fundamental Macrory features, would not come into operation.
Captain L. P. S. Orr: I am sorry to interrupt my hon. Friend. Since he has challenged the point, however, may I say that the reason why we shall oppose the order is simply that under the Macrory proposals it was envisaged that the Measure would be a parliamentary Bill with full parliamentary time and full democratic processes in order to discuss it, and not an Order in Council contemptuously introduced at this late hour of the night in this intolerable manner.
Mr. Channon: I am sorry if my hon. and gallant Friend feels that I have introduced it contemptuously. I have certainly not attempted to do that. In the time available to me, I have done my best to be as courteous and reasonable to the House as I can and to introduce it in the best way I can.
Captain Orr: I was not implying otherwise of my hon. Friend.
Mr. Channon: If I have offended the House, I apologise.
I am here tonight in the somewhat anomalous position of speaking in support of the whole reform of a local government in Northern Ireland, a reform welcomed by, I think, virtually everyone in Northren Ireland with very few exceptions, supported, I think, by all political parties there, certainly the political party which my hon. Friends support, which had the support of the previous Northern Ireland Government and the whole principle of which was debated in the Northern Ireland Parliament. There was a two-day debate a long time ago. A consultation document was prepared in February. The explanatory document was in the Vote Office, I hope, some time ago.
Captain Orr: Yesterday.
Mr. Channon: The whole order was published in August, I think on 9th August, and we are now at 19th October. That is not an unreasonable period.
Rather than enter into the polemics, however, I should try to answer some of the points which have been made. If one is in favour of this reform of local government in Northern Ireland, one should

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in logic support the order, because it cannot possibly operate if it is defeated.
The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) asked about drainage and sewerage. I hope he will have his chance to speak on that issue in the not-too-distant future. He raised a point in his intervention during my earlier remarks. I think I was right in what I said. Under the Planning Acts of Northern Ireland there is a right of appeal to an independent person whose decision is final; the Minister cannot upset his decision. That is the law as it stands. The law is slightly different in a new town area but I do not think I should spend time on that at the moment.
My hon. Friend the Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder) raised the question of forestry. There is exactly the same exemption for forestry under the English law as exists in Article 11. Article 31(2)(b) contains provisions for the control of the interior of historic buildings.
My hon. Friend also raised the question of rights of way—a very important matter—and it may well be right that there should be legislation dealing with it. I do not think that it is a matter to be rushed into this order. It needs careful discussion with, amongst other, the Ulster Farmers' Union, and would require separate legislation. That is why it has been omitted from the order. But it is an important matter.
My hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) made an important speech. He referred to a misprint in the order. He must have an earlier copy. The order as it is before us now has been corrected. But he is right to oppose the order because he has fundamental objection to the whole system. I understand his point of view. But I must cross swords with him on the question of the fee. As it is suggested that it should be about £2, I do not think it will be an intolerable burden.
Mr. Molyneaux: The copy of the order I have was obtained from the Vote Office yesterday.
Mr. Channon: I am sorry if my hon. Friend did not get the right copy. There are plenty of corrected copies available now.
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The 14-day period is a minimum, not a maximum.
The hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) raised a number of very important points. The historic building provisions are modelled on the English provisions. No decision has been taken about setting up an advisory committee but there might be one on urban renewal. It is a possibility. He says that he is against advisory committees. Yet whenever one tries to abolish them almost every hon. Member says they are essential. I tried to my cost to abolish one not long ago.
There is a development advice centre in Belfast, with Ministry of Development staff, to advise persons who are thinking of moving to growth areas such as Craigavon, Antrim, Bangor and Newtownards. Grants are available to help people buy houses in the growth areas and efforts are made to help them find both a job and a house. This is a useful work which is considered most valuable.
The definition of "development" is identical with that of the English definition.
My hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, South also asked about planning permission for houses on farms. I see no reason why under the order, such permission is any different from the existing law.
Many points have been raised and I will write to hon. Members about those I have not covered in my reply. This is an important order and I am sorry that some hon. Members intend to vote against it. They are entitled to do so, but if one wants to press ahead with the reform of local government one must press ahead with the consequential measures; one cannot have the one without the other, for otherwise reform will not take place. I hope, therefore, that, on reflection, hon. Members will after all decide to support the order, since it is so crucial for the reform of local government which has such wide acceptance in all sections of the community both in Northern Ireland and in this House.
11.40 p.m.
Captain L. P. S. Orr: I am sorry the Minister thought that I was being offensive to him when I mentioned the contemptible manner in which this legislation was being dealt with. I

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was talking about the Government. I was saying that to introduce this Measure at this time of night, a complicated measure concerned with the rights of the individual, means that the Minister has no chance to listen to our questions, take them away for further study and then to

Division No. 341.]

AYES

[11.40 p.m.

Atkins, Humphrey

Hunt, John

Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

Benyon, W.

James, David

Russell, Sir Ronald

Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

St. John-Stevas, Norman

Channon, Paul

Kinsey, J. R.

Scott, Nicholas

Chapman, Sydney

Knox, David

Shelton, William (Clapham)

Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Lamont, Norman

Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mlngton)

Clegg, Walter

Lane, David

Speed, Keith

Crouch, David

Langford-Holt, Sir John

Spence, John

Eyre, Reginald

Le Marchant, Spencer

Stanbrook, Ivor

Fortescue, Tim

Money, Ernle

Sutcliffe, John

Fowler, Norman

Montgomery, Fergus

Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

Goodhew, Victor

Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

Trafford, Dr. Anthony

Gray, Hamish

Murton, Oscar

Tugendhat, Christopher

Green, Alan

Normanton, Tom

Weatherill, Bernard

Gummer, J Selwyn

Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

Worsley, Marcus

Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

Hawkins, Paul

Raison, Timothy

TEKKERS FOR THE AYES:

How, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

Redmond, Robert

Mr. Michael Jopling and

Howell, David (Guildford)

Mr. Marcus Fox.

NOES

Kilfedder, James

Molyneaux, James

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

McMaster, Stanley

Pounder, Rafton

Capt Orr and

Maginnis, John E.

Winterton, Nicholas

Rev. Ian Paisley.

Question accordingly agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Planning (Northern Ireland) Order, 1972, a draft of which was laid before this House on 9th August, be approved.

NORTHERN IRELAND (RATES)
11.50 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. David Howell): I beg to move.
That the Rates (Northern Ireland) Order, 1972, a draft of which was laid before this House on 9th August, be approved.
This draft order provides essentially for a re-enactment of the existing law on rating and valuation in Northern Ireland with amendments and improvements which are necessary for the continuation of a workable system of rating and valuation after 1st April, 1973, when local government reorganisation in Northern Ireland becomes effective.
The Northern Ireland Advisory Commission and other interested parties, including local government representatives, professional associations and the main churches, have been consulted about the
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bring the matter back to the Floor of the House to give us his considered opinion. This is why I say this method of operation is contemptuous.
Question put:—
The House divided: Ayes 52, Noes 6.
legislation. So far as rating is concerned, the major new proposals in the draft order were announced in "Report on Progress—Reorganisation of Local Government and other services"—published by the Government of Northern Ireland in November, 1971, and well received. Part I of the draft order is introductory and deals with title and commencement, interpretation and temporary provisions necessary while the Northern Ireland parliament is prorogued.
Rating is dealt with in Part II of the order. The major new provisions are as follows, first: a uniform regional rate to be struck by the Ministry of Finance and separate district rates to be made by each district council; second, a scheme of rate rebates on much the same lines as that operated by local authorities in Great Britain; third, powers to make transitional arrangements to ease the impact of the change in the rating system on the ratepayers. For the convenience of both ratepayers and administration the regional and district rates will be collected together by the Ministry of Finance which will also operate the rate rebate scheme and will pay over to each district council the product of its district rate. At

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present, rate poundages in Northern Ireland vary widely from one local area to another so that the change to a uniform regional rate would result in large increases and decreases in certain cases. The order therefore provides power to introduce a scheme for cushioning the impact of large increases. It will also be used to phase out special discounts and reliefs given in some local areas but which will have no justification under the new centralised rating system.
The present system of local government finance in Northern Ireland will be completely dismantled when local government is reorganised. As a result it will be impossible, certainly beyond 1973–74, to calculate the regional rate by reference to what the services transferred to central government would have cost in terms of a rate after grants and other adjustments had been taken into account. It is, however, important that the Northern Ireland ratepayer, who will pay his regional rate into the Northern Ireland Exchequer, like any other tax, should have a burden of rates which is equitable by comparison with his counterpart in the rest of the United Kingdom. The principle of parity should apply to rating as it does to other taxes. At present, it seems that the best means of attaining future parity is to compare the Northern Ireland rate with the rate level in areas of Great Britain which have a similar structure of household incomes. It is intended to derive the Northern Ireland regional rate from such a comparison.
The introduction of a rate rebate scheme similar to that which operates in Great Britain is desirable on grounds of parity in the social services. The scheme is made possible by the proposed centralisation of rate collection which will allow previous administrative difficulties, particularly related to the small size of local authorities, to be overcome.
Part III of the draft order deals with valuation. This part contains important new provisions for the introduction of continuous revision of valuations for rating in place of the present system of annual revision, the removal of rate exemption from certain properties on which rates would in effect be paid by the government and revision of the law concerning charitable properties which are used for domestic purposes.
Continuous revision of valuations has operated in Great Britain for many years. By reducing the delay between application for revision and the consequent change in valuation which is a feature of the present system, this would remove a source of inequity between ratepayers and will be welcomed. The removal of rate exemption from properties such as the Ulster Museum and the Ulster College on which the Government would pay rates is intended to add to the financial independence of district councils by making them less dependent on Government grant; there are powers to add by subordinate legislation to the bodies listed in Schedule 15 as excluded from rate exemption and additions will be made to the list when consultations with interested parties are completed.
The provisions revising rate exemption for charitable properties are intended to remove uncertainties in the application of the existing law which have arisen out of certain court decisions. At present, the qualifications for charitable exemption are very similar in both Northern Ireland and Great Britain but the rates are very different. Domestic properties occupied by charities in Northern Ireland, if they qualify, can obtain up to 100 per cent. rate exemption. In Great Britain, if they qualify, they can obtain 50 per cent. exemption with a further 50 per cent. at the discretion of the local authority and there is a special provision for clergymen's houses to receive a mandatory 50 per cent. exemption.
In Northern Ireland recent case law has tended to extend the range of properties which qualify for exemption and it has become extremely difficult for the Commissioner of Valuation to devise a readily comprehensible working rule. In the case of clergymen's houses it is possible that because of the different terms on which incumbents occupy residences, some religious sects would obtain exemption while others would not. The order provides therefore for a change in the Northern Ireland law in relation to domestic properties which will give exemption on much the same scale as is available in Great Britain—50 per cent. This will be a move in the right direction. No change is made for other charitable property except, as I said, in certain cases where the Government would bear the burden of rates.
Although much of this order is consolidation of what went before and reformation of it in the new pattern to make it workable under the new local government system, there are new and important provisions in it and I shall be happy to answer, either in the debate or by letter, as many details about them as I can. However, the general underlying pattern of the order is sensible in the context of rate reform and thinking about rates throughout the United Kingdom. I think that it is widely welcomed in Northern Ireland and throughout Great Britain, and I commend it to the House.
11.57 p.m.
Mr. Merlyn Rees: Over the years there has been much discussion on the question of the suitability of rates as a local government tax, but, as with the future shape of local government finance which has emanated from the Department of the Environment in this part of the United Kingdom, it always comes back to the rates. It is argued that rates give each authority a certain autonomy and that they are easy to raise. But the question which arises with the differential rate which there is to be in Northern Ireland is why it is not possible to raise the regional rate, or monies from the region as a whole, via taxation. It is said that if there is a rate for the whole of an area there is no need to depend on the argument that the rates are easy to raise and that they give a certain autonomy. I accept that this argument does not hold when we come to the question of the district councils.
I should like to ask a number of questions. Article 6 is the cornerstone of the order because it makes provision for a regional and a district rate. The Minister was good enough to give certain information about it, but there is one point on which I am not clear. Which of the rates is to be declared first? Will the regional rate be announced first and then the district rate? What sort of sum is it intended to raise from the combined tax? At the appropriate time, not tonight, written information will suffice. What is the present variation in rate poundage between the two, and what maximum percentage variation in rate poundage is envisaged once the provisions of the order are fully in force? Parity of treatment for Northern Ireland as compared with areas of Great Britain is to be introduced;
622
which areas of Great Britain are to be selected as having income ranges similar to those of Northern Ireland?
Article 28 introduces a rate rebate scheme and the income test as set out in Schedule 10 is identical with that used in this part of the United Kingdom and there is no need to go into the details of that. But the problem with means-tested benefits is that the take-up rate is low, especially in the early days of the introduction of a scheme. May we have an assurance that there will be a large publicity campaign in Northern Ireland about the right to the rate rebate scheme once it comes into effect?
Article 58(2)(b) requires the Commissioner of Valuation, or his representative, to give at least 24 hours' notice of intended entry upon land. This is a small but important matter. Does that mirror legislation over here? Is 24 hours' notice enough? What constitutes notice?
Schedule 7 defines the expression "material change of circumstances", and the definition is crucial to the order. Is it identical with that used in comparable Acts in Great Britain?
The Minister twice mentioned exemptions from rates—if he did not do so twice, perhaps the force with which he did so has impaled it upon my mind. I remember that he mentioned four bodies, two of which were the Ulster Folk Museum and the Ulster College. Perhaps the changes will close most of the gaps between Northern Ireland and Great Britain in the matter of exemptions, but important differences remain, especially with charities. Is the Minister able to explain why there is that difference?
Schedule 18(2) makes all sorts of complicated provisions for the rating of playing fields. Why is there a temporary limitation on rates and what is the significance of the date 1st April, 1956?
I was intrigued to find that the amount of rates leviable in respect of a playing field in any year was to be calculated in accordance with the formula: A=R(1—). Why is it so complicated as to make differential calculus look easy? I am questioning not the complications of rating finance, but why such complication is necessary for rating

623
playing fields. Is that to be found only in Northern Ireland?
Rates are returned to businesses affected by the disturbances. At present the scheme applies only to small areas of Belfast, Londonderry and Newry. It provides that 75 per cent. of the rates may be reclaimed. Should not the areas be extended? For example, in Belfast it should probably apply to a two-mile radius around the centre of the city. Would it not be easier to deduct the rebate at source than to pay it and then have the firms reclaim a portion?
I have one or two questions about the current rent and rate strike. May we have current information about the numbers involved? How much is involved? In my post bag and during my visits to Northern Ireland I find many questions about the method of deductions from social service benefits. The major question I should like to ask is: what is the situation in this respect?
The whole of Northern Ireland is a development area with special aids to industry. It has been put to me that it is not sufficient to treat the Province as a whole and that there should be differential treatment of different areas of the Province with a differential in favour of areas west of the Bann.
Could not rates be used in this respect? Could not derating or lower rating be used as a sort of adjustment? Given that there is this regional rate which is enshrined because rates differ in different parts of the country, could this not be used to deal with the real problems of different parts of Northern Ireland?
As with the previous order, many questions could be asked. There is no need for the full treatment which could have been used for the planning order, but the procedures which will be arranged in the new Session mean that we should be able to give more time to this.
Given the order, and the need for it, we on this side support it.
12.6 a.m.
Mr. Rafton Pounder: The House is indebted to the Government for the explanatory document to the order, which is essential if anyone but the rare group of rating experts is to have any comprehension of the order.
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One main theme I detect in the document is the manner in which it is seeking constantly to refer to ways in which the changes in the existing system in Northern Ireland are largely being made to bring it into line with the system in the rest of the United Kingdom. There are repeated references to this. For example, in paragraph 3(b) of the document it says:
"A rebate scheme based on the Great Britain system is desirable on grounds of parity in social services."
Then in paragraph 4 it is stated:
"… the introduction of the continuous revision of valuations on much the same lines as in Great Britain."
In paragraph 5 is written:
"Reorganisation presents an opportunity to move much nearer to the Great Britain system and thus to increase the amount of property from which councils can draw rates as of right."
So one could go on in this constant reiteration of the idea that much of this order is to streamline the rating system on lines comparable with that in the rest of the United Kingdom.
Although I am generally critical of this order and of the thinking behind it, nevertheless, this might be an opportune moment to comment favourably on two points. I welcome the continued 75 per cent. industrial derating which has been in operation in the Province for a number of years and which has undoubtedly been satisfactory and successful in attracting new industry to the Province. I welcome the proposed reduction of rating exemption for charities, because the net was pretty wide. I should be careful in what I say because I used to work for an organisation which may be caught within the ambit of the new regulations, but it was bordering on the ridiculous when a number of large organisations were enjoying rating relief when they were well able to afford to make a contribution and thus relieve some of the business rates, particularly as with Government concerns it was a mere contra-entry in the book.
I welcome the endeavour to bring this more into line with British practice. The most important point in the explanatory document and in the order is to be found in 3(a) of the document, where it is stated that the principle of parity of treatment for Northern Ireland ratepayers should

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be introduced by using the average rate burden per household in areas selected as comparable in Great Britain. That is the yardstick of what the fair average Northern Ireland rate poundage should be.
On the face of it, that may seem reasonable. Rating reforms were urged on the former Northern Ireland Government for many years by local authorities. One such reform was the one to which I have referred, the pruning of rate exemptions for charities. However, it is when we come to article 7 that we arrive at the nub of the problem. There will undoubtedly be discontent in the method of determining the regional rate. Article 7 is crucial to the entire order. It is mysterious, but one has only to read article 8, which clearly sets out the position of the district councils in determining rates, to note that article 7 is strangely silent on the regional rate.
I hope that I shall be forgiven for mentioning Belfast specifically, but under the reorganisation of local government, 80 per cent. or more of the rateborne expenditure by the city of Belfast is being transferred from local government to the regional administration. It may be a comparable pattern for the rest of the Province but I am not in a position to comment. It is crazy that we should have 20 per cent. spelt out and 80 per cent. left in a vacuum.
According to the Family Expenditure Survey, the North East of England, Yorkshire and Wales have incomes roughly comparable to those in Northern Ireland. Therefore, it can be presumed that one of those areas will be selected to calculate the average rate burden per household which will then be applied to Northern Ireland. Rates in Great Britain and Northern Ireland have up to now taken into account Government grant and local expenditure. Each authority has known in advance the approximate amount of money which it can expect from the central Government fund by way of rate support grant. It will have considered the estimates of expenditure on each of the various services which it provides, the difference between the two amounts being the amount to be borne on the rates by the ratepayer. But the ratepayer, when he receives his demand note now, has itemised the services upon which his rate demand is based.
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Additionally, the estimates will have been provided and submitted to the elected representatives of local government to consider the rate of expenditure, the priorities and the order of those priorities. Unfortunately, that will be changed by the order, and the Northern Ireland ratepayer will no longer know the amount of the rate support grant. He will no longer know the cost of the services which are being provided. Instead, he will be called upon to pay the same amount as his counterpart in Teesside, Wales, or whichever area is chosen. He will have no say in the expenditure in those regions, which must have a bearing upon the demand being made upon him. This is taxation without representation in anyone's language.
In the present situation pertaining in Northern Ireland, that is doubly the case. We are going ahead and carrying out the idea of restructuring the rate system in the Province which was originally envisaged in what I regard as the infamous Macrory Report. We are now in a situation that presupposes a Stormont, a regional administration but which no longer exists, yet the reorganisation is going to come into being on 1st April, 1973, with a disrupted district council structure and probably no regional administration in operation.
If one gets the principle wrong it is awfully hard to get some of the details right. We are in the position that the order is changing not only the means of levying rates, the calculations thereof, but the whole concept of rating, a local tax on property levied to meet expenditure on services as determined by elected representation, which is a fair definition of a rate. However, there are no elected representatives to comment or scrutinise the rate demand which will be made.
There might be some rough and ready financial equity in this proposal provided that one could be sure that the standard of services provided was similar. In other words, I am sure that the Northern Ireland ratepayer would have no ground for complaint about paying the same amount of money as was paid by, say, a Welsh ratepayer, if his roads, his schools, his clinics, his old people's homes and so on were provided and maintained to the same standards. Parity of treatment is not the same as parity of payment.

627
The only possible way of comparing standards is by calculating the expenditure per head of population, and this will be just impossible in Northern Ire-land now under the new system. This is admitted in the explanatory document, and in a comparable document accompanying the draft Drainage Order it is said:
"It is not intended that parts of the regional rate should be specifically earmarked to pay for individual services".
In my view, that is a considerable admission, and it alters the whole basis of the concept of rating as we have hitherto understood it.
The Northern Ireland ratepayer will not know what is being spent on the various services. Neither will he know whether he is getting good or bad value for his money. How many hon. Members would accept a procedure for their own area under which the rates were based not on the requirements of that area but on some fairly meaningless comparable yardstick drawn from a place perhaps several hundred miles away? It is rather like paying for someone else's groceries because one does not know the cost of one's own.
As the rate is to be fixed by reference to that payable in another region of the Kingdom, the other factor contributing to expenditure and, consequently, to standards of services is Government grant. How will this be determined? Presumably, the Ministry of Finance and the Treasury will jointly determine what sum of money shall be allocated to Northern Ireland as the equivalent of the English rate support grant. But it is most unlikely that this will be separately itemised, and it could well find itself lumped together with other transferred revenue. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State can help here. Is there at this stage any indication of an agreed formula between the Treasury and the Ministry of Finance as to how this is to be calculated?
In effect, the standards of service will he determined by the officers of various Government Departments. This Order gives the widest possible powers to the Ministry of Finance in Northern Ireland. The striking of the regional rate has all the appearance of unmistakable similarity to the marine navigation formula of "By guess and by God".
628
In my view, in this age of the computer, there is no reason why it should not be possible for local government and central Government expenditure to be kept separate. I know that, under certain headings, it could be complicated, but there is no reason why it should not be done. What, for instance, will be the procedure now with regard to expenditure on roads? I have understood the former procedure to be that the central Government paid for trunk roads and local government paid for maintenance and so forth of subsidiary and side roads. What will happen now? Will the regional rate take account of all road expenditure, or will there be some which will fall within the district councils' orbit of responsibilities?
What has been the result of the consideration given by the Secretary of State to the representations made to him on 1st August when he met a deputation from the Belfast Corporation which outlined many of the points which I have sought to raise tonight?
In a letter from Stormont Castle dated 15th August to the Town Clerk of Belfast with reference to this draft order, it was said—I quote the paragraph for the sake of fairness—
"… the decision not to include actual details of the method for determining the regional rate in the order itself was taken because to have done so would have been unnecessarily restrictive, particularly if there are to be changes in the system from time to time".
What is meant by the words "unnecessarily restrictive"? Surely, it is the essence of any system of taxation that it be spelled out in such a way that those who unfortunate enough to have to bear the burden of the tax, be it local or national, know what they are being let in for.
Therefore, we are in the situation that the Northern Ireland ratepayer will be obliged to pay on the basis of decisions taken in some other region and the standards of the services, which will be centralised and constitute perhaps 80 per cent. of the rate, will be decided by officials when considering Government subvention towards the cost of such services.
The order clearly shows that the re-organisation of local government in Northern Ireland was proceeded with in

629
such haste by the former Administration that insufficient attention was given to its full financial implications. Even at the back of the order there are nine pages of repeals of existing Statutes. The order is a further example of bureaucracy in Wonderland. No mention is made of the method of calculation of the regional rate. The Ministry is obliged neither to explain, nor to justify the rate fixed. It is virtually a licence to print money.
The order is unacceptable to me unless clear lines of definition concerning the levying of the regional rate and the basis and calculation thereof are included in it.
My hon. Friends and I from Northern Ireland are as opposed to the procedure adopted for this order as for the last one. Having registered our protest against the procedure on that occasion by voting, I am content on this occasion to register my protest by my voice.
12.22 a.m.
Rev. Ian Paisley: Again, we are dealing in this draft order with a very complicated piece of legislation. I am sure that when hon. Members study Schedule 19 and consider all the Acts that will be completely or partly repealed, they will understand just how far-reaching this legislation is. When we consider that the order makes a complete change not only in the rating system as heretofore practised in Northern Ireland, but in the way the rates were struck, we find that it is revolutionary in dealing with complicated legislation affecting the lives of all people in Northern Ireland.
Yet at this early hour in the morning, on a Thursday when the House is always thinly attended as hon. Members go to their constituencies for Friday meetings, we are asked to give a blank cheque to the Government on legislation that is not amenable. We are giving a Second Reading, a Committee stage and Third Reading to this draft order, which is really a complicated Bill.
Although it will no doubt fall on deal ears within the Government, I must again solemnly protest, on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland, that legislation should be brought before this House in this manner. We were to have a Committee to consider such legislation. This afternoon the Leader of the House could not even tell us when that Committee will be brought into being or how it will
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operate. Therefore, we must deal with this matter by Order in Council, after being given an assurance that only those Bills which had been discussed in Stormont, before its prorogation, would be brought in in this manner.
Many people in Northern Ireland tonight will be saying, "Why do not the Government apply themselves to gathering in the millions of pounds owing to them by the rate strike which is still on in Northern Ireland?". Instead, we are asked to revolutionise the whole rating system when the present rates cannot be gathered in. So I repeat, the Government's priorities are wrong.
Will the Minister enlarge on the provisions of the draft order and explain how he will carry out the part dealing with agricultural property? In Part II of Schedule 14 it says:
The net annual value of a house occupied in connection with agricultural land and used as the dwelling of a person—

(a) whose primary occupation is the carrying on or directing of agricultural operations on that land; or

(b) who is employed in agricultural operations on that land in the service of the occupier thereof and is entitled, whether as tenant or otherwise, so to use the house only while so employed,

shall, so long as the house is so occupied and used, be estimated by reference to the rent at which the house might reasonably be expected to let from year to year if it could not be occupied and used otherwise than as aforesaid.
That means that a house upon a farm will be valued by the rent that would be paid for it if it was not a farm house. I suggest to the Minister that that is almost impossible to operate. Does he understand the vast difference in rents in Northern Ireland? Has he any idea what rents are being asked in Northern Ireland? Has he any idea what people are paying for property with neither water nor amenities? The order says" reasonably be expected". Upon what standard will that be based? Will it be upon an average standard of what is paid across the board for rents in Northern Ireland? Is he aware of what local authority rents are at the moment and what rents are expected to be on the new housing estates?
The Minister said that in England clergymen's residences were 100 per cent. derated. That has never applied in Northern Ireland. Is he now suggesting

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that clergymen's houses will be derated by 50 per cent? Church halls in Northern Ireland which are used in many cases for dancing, bingo and for sports with profit are not rated but in England they are rated. Under the order church halls in Northern Ireland will continue to enjoy 100 per cent. derating. If a church hall is not used primarily for charitable purposes but is used for making money it should be rated like any other hall.
Will the Minister explain the position of houses connected to churches? Will they get 50 per cent. derating. I would oppose that, because it is not necessary. The derating of churches and church halls is a good enough concession and clergymen's houses should not be derated 50 per cent.
I am worried about the position of agricultural properties in Northern Ireland. Will the Minister enlarge on how these properties will fare, both in the striking of the regional rate and of the district rate. This is a long and complicated draft order. It represents a revolution in the rating system. It will be a rating system operated by comparison with other parts of the United Kingdom, and while the people of Northern Ireland want to carry their full load they want to carry an equitable load in comparison to the services they have. I have a farming district in Rashenkin where the people pay a water rate but have never had water. Is it any wonder that they demand water when they have paid rates for it and are paying the same water rate as people who have water? Some hon. Members will no doubt be amazed to hear about this, but these are the problems we face. What can I say to a person who asks, "Why must I pay a water rate when I have to carry my water over a field, for 20, 30 or 40 yards?" These are the sort of problems that concern us, especially in agriculture.
Other matters in the draft order deserve careful consideration. The more I look at it, the more I feel that the Government would be wiser to make it a Bill and present it to the House so that we could table a series of Amendments and discuss them and make the points that it is necessary to make for the people of Northern Ireland.
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But I should not like it to go out from this House that we in Northern Ireland do not want to carry the load. We are prepared to carry an equitable load, provided the people who are paying it are getting value for their money. We do not want to be different from any other part of the United Kingdom in that, but there are parts of Northern Ireland which deserve careful consideration.
We have already made a protest tonight by dividing the House, though not because we believed that the previous draft order was all wrong, as I made clear. We do not believe that the order before us is all wrong. There are many good things in it. We believe that the rating system needs to be looked at, that many of the Acts being repealed are obsolete, and that there is need for new legislation. But we feel that revolutionary legislation of this nature should be dealt with in the way in which the House deals with other legislation. I wonder what any Member from Scotland, Wales or England would say if the House decided in an hour and a half to revolutionise their whole rating system. The people in Northern Ireland are saying—and I came from Northern Ireland today, "Why is it that the Parliament at Westminster can spend hours fighting about whether you go into a museum free, but has not time to give hours to dealing with very important legislation that affects our everyday life?" That is the reality of the situation.
This House, by its own vote, took on a load. I warned it that the ghost of the old Irish Party would haunt it. I was laughed at, but the ghosts are rising tonight and will continue to rise until we have an opportunity of discussing the matter in a full and proper manner.
12.33 a.m.
Mr. David Howell: I am grateful to hon. Members for the points they have made on the draft order. I shall answer as many of their questions as I can.
I begin with the points made by the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees). He asked which rate would be announced first as between the rate struck by the district for district expenditure and the uniform regional rate The answer is that it will be the district rate. The question of which areas will be taken for comparison of comparable

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income structures and household incomes is a point mentioned in the explanatory document. I am grateful to my hon Friend the Member for Belfast, South (Mr. Pounder) for his kind comments about that document. Such a document is valuable as background to a subject as complicated as rates, even when many of the provisions in the order are consolidation, although there certainly are innovations in the order.
Publicity for the new rebate scheme we will certainly give on a very strong and powerful basis. I give that full assurance. That is essential. There is no point in having these schemes, which inevitably involve fairly complicated calculations, if people are not aware of their rights and cannot take them up. So publicity we will certainly put behind the new scheme.
The next question concerned variations It is a little difficult to give figures which would be reliable, but variations in rate poundage for 1972–73 might be between something like £1·03 for Cookstown Rural District Council up to £2·93 for Banbridge; there will be less variation under the uniform rate plus district rate system.
The hon. Member asked about the complexities of the calculations for playing fields. This provision is copied straight from the English system and is based on the valuation of playing fields. It is complex but it is a system throughout the United Kingdom and it seems to be the accepted system.
The hon. Member went on to the question of city centre rate repayments, which is not strictly a matter raised in the draft order but is important. The Government have been giving a good deal of thought and effort, and indeed assistance, to city centre traders and are in the process of further considering how help can be brought particularly to the big stores in the city centres, to enable the life of the city centres to continue and to neutralise the declared aim of IRA killers to take out and destroy the economic life of city centres. For that reason the rate repayments were designed to be limited to the centres of certain cities, particularly Belfast, also Londonderry and, I think, Newry.
Of course there have been arguments for extensions but the difficulty here is where to stop. It is all too easy, once one moves away from the objective of preserving the life of city centres, to find
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that the argument arises for general rate repayment throughout the whole Province. I do not think that would be right and the Government are not prepared to accept it.
We also believe that the machinery of rate assessments should go forward separately and that the repayments of 75 per cent. should come afterwards and when the necessary proof has been provided that there has been loss of business, and so on. I think that after the initial difficulties—because there were certain administrative problems—the system is now working fairly well and is welcomed by many people, and the Government have been considering further measures to help city centres. I hope that this gives the picture on the whole of that issue, which extends far further than the question of rates and rate assessments.
As regards the withholding of rent and rates, my current figure is that 17,800 people are still withholding rent and rates. This is substantially lower than in the past but it is still a big number. About £1·1 million is still outstanding. That is the present position.
The hon. Member asked why there could not be differential rates for different areas of Northern Ireland—say, west of the Bann or as opposed to the east side of the Province. The answer must be that if there are to be differentials—and of course there are—much the best way to develop these is through the existing industrial incentives and inducements and not to use the rating system as yet another system with a differential effect throughout the Province. To do that would merely create yet another vastly complicated, elaborate, variable system throughout the Province. It makes sense to go for administrative simplicity concerning the rates and to use other methods, as we do—and powerful methods—for differential inducements to attract industry to the places where the jobs are really needed, which is a major aim of Government policy.
My hon. Friend the hon. Member for Belfast, South made some valid points about the propositions in the order. He is attacking the basic principle of the Macrory Report and the way it should be financed. It is true that district councils will be concerned with a smaller proportion of the expenditure and will be striking a rate to cover it. It is

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true also that the uniform rate for the whole region will be struck centrally and cover a very much higher proportion of the expenditure throughout the localities. It is true too that under the Northern Ireland (Temporary Provisions) Act that uniform rate is subject to a negative Resolution of this House, which he would argue—and it would be difficult to challenge him—is not as full and satisfactory a democratic process as he would like.
It is the aim of the Government, and my right hon. Friend's constant objective, backed by ceaseless efforts, to bring about political developments which will allow the Macrory proposals to develop towards a system of government which will command the support of the community in Northern Ireland and which will again make it possible for this kind of development to be subject to proper scrutiny at the centre at the regional level. That is what we want, but meantime it is subject to negative resolution here, so it is not entirely true to say that there is no control or democratic say at all.
Before Stormont was prorogued, the proposal was that there should be an affirmative resolution there. The hon. Member for Belfast, South can accept that or attack it, but in attacking it he is attacking the basic proposition of Macrory, which was that there should be regional centralisation of the organisation of financing of a large range of activities which hitherto have been vested in local councils. This was the spirit in which it was proposed and rating reform backed up and underpinned these proposals.
I turn now to the substantial points made by the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley). He pointed to the many Acts mentioned in the order. It covers a wide range of past legislation. It is to a very large extent consolidation. I am not excusing the fact that we are under the regime of the Temporary Provisions Act, but it is a little misleading to imply that all these Acts are in some way being swept away and replaced. In many cases it is merely consolidation.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the valuation of agricultural property. This simply repeats the English provisions. The arrangement which exists in England
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is that the estimate of rent will be made on the basis that a house or farm is subject to a perpetual covenant to be used only for that purpose and let only to a farm worker. This repeats in its entirety the provision which also exists throughout the rest of the United Kingdom. It has been found in practice there that it creates no difficulty.
Rev. Ian Paisley: I think the hon Gentleman will agree with me that the whole farming system of Northern Ireland is entirely different. As a result of the old land agitation, there is a completely changed system of farming in the whole of Ireland. Many of the farms to this day in England are rented. But the farms in Northern Ireland are no longer rented. I know of no farm in Northern Ireland which is. These farms were bought out under the old system of buying out farms, so they do not pay rent. No one knows what one would have to rent a farm house at. That is the difficulty I am pointing out.
Mr. Howell: It may be that in practice these difficulties will be fundamental; I am advised that they could be overcome. Despite difficulties historically in the way in which agriculture has evolved, we shall be able to deal with the situation when it arises. I note the hon. Gentleman's warning and will bear it in mind.
The hon. Gentleman asked for specific answers about clergymen's houses. It is not true—and I do not think he meant to imply it—that I had said that in the rest of the United Kingdom such houses got 100 per cent. rebate. They do not. In fact they get 50 per cent. What is proposed for Northern Ireland is that they will now all get 50 per cent. rebate. I think the hon. Gentleman said he was opposed to that, but that is what is now proposed for Northern Ireland—particularly in light of recent court cases which have threatened to throw into chaos the whole business of charitable dwellings. The order is necessary to bring fairness and equity into the system by an across-the-board 50 per cent. provision for clergymen's houses.
In respect of church halls, if used for charitable purposes by a charity they will be exempt from rates. That is the situation in the rest of the United Kingdom and it will be the case under the

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order, if we now approve it. That is the arrangement implied by the order.
I think I have covered nearly all the points which have been made. If there are others, I will write to hon. Members filling in the details. I regard this as an important development in methods of rating. It can be argued that it moves the question of rating away from the local level, but the whole spirit and purpose of Macrory was to set up a stronger regional system. That is reflected in the draft order. I therefore ask the House to approve it.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Rates (Northern Ireland) Order, 1972, a draft of which was laid before this House on 9th August, be approved.

ADJOURNMENT
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Kenneth Clarke.]

UNEMPLOYMENT (STATISTICS)
12.47 a.m.
Mr. John Sutcliffe: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment has had good news today. Despite that news, it is true that a high level of unemployment persists in face of massive reflation. It is a puzzling phenomenon.
I am grateful to have the opportunity in this debate to argue the need for better information on one of our greatest problems. We are spending vast sums in trying to cure unemployment, but we spend the minimum on its diagnosis. Our existing machinery for collecting the information has been likened in usefulness to looking down the wrong end of a telescope. I am worried lest we are squandering valuable time when we should be devising and implementing techniques of information-gathering far superior to any we now have.
Existing unemployment statistics, far from being a reliable measure of the economy overall, obscure the true nature of the problem. They are neither soundly-based nor sufficiently detailed. There is the so-called percentage of unemployment issued monthly by my right hon. Friend's Department. We learn from it that this
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September 3·9 per cent. were unemployed. Naturally, we conclude that 3·9 per cent. of those actually looking for jobs could not find them. But the percentage tells us nothing of the sort. What it measures is the number registered with employment exchanges at a particular date as a proportion of the total number of employees both employed and unemployed.
Neither component of this measure is what we want. It is misleading. As a guide to the state of the economy or to unemployment it is unreliable. The number registered does not accurately represent the number seeking work. Many who want jobs do not qualify for unemployment benefit and they do not register—for example, recent entrants to the labour force, those discharged for misconduct, those whose entitlement is already exhausted, and those who have not paid national insurance contributions at the full rate, which goes for many married women. There are others who may not choose to collect benefit.
The record of employment exchange placement is another factor. Exchanges have been responsible for, perhaps, a fifth of placements overall and a mere 6 per cent. of executive and professional postings. Given this record, there has not been in the past any great incentive to sign on. Clearly the register excludes people who are seeking work, but it is misleading in another way. It includes many who are not seeking work. The Department makes some allowance for this by omitting school leavers and the temporarily stopped from its category of "wholly unemployed", but far more people than this are in who should be out. I refer, for example, to occupational pensioners and those nearing retirement. These people are unlikely to be looking for jobs. Then there are those who simply abuse the system, who collect benefit while simultaneously holding down a job or who prefer living on the dole to working for a living.
Even if the number seeking work were available, expressing it, as we do, as a percentage of the total number of employees would still be misleading. Employees are only a part of the working population and an index ignoring the armed forces, employers and the increasing numbers of self-employed cannot hope to be accurate. It will systematically over-state the percentage

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of unemployment. In 1971 the wholly unemployed constituted 3·3 per cent. of all employees but only 3·1 per cent. of the working population. In each of the four previous years there was a similar difference.
We must revise the present system, not just in order to know what percentage of the labour force is actually seeking work, but to know much more than that. We need to know how unemployment breaks down in terms of occupation, duration, location, earnings, age, skills, and the potential to acquire new skills. Is it voluntary or involuntary, long-term or short-term? Short-term unemployment constitutes about 40 per cent. of the total. This is redeployment. It is to be treated differently from long-term unemployment. Those out of work for less than eight weeks scarcely pose a problem, certainly not one calling for reflation. Similarly, those out of work because of disablement require special sheltered jobs, not fiscal measures. Occupational pensioners require no action: they should not be classified with the unemployed. In contrast, young people in the first three years after leaving school need every help and the more we know about their problems the better.
I say this with real feeling. In the Northern Region last month there were over 12,000 boys and girls out of work. This is an appalling state of affairs. I told my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment in a letter the other day that it calls for emergency action.
We need to improve both the sources and kinds of information. We must ask more and better questions. For example: what is the job seeker's level of skill and education? This would help identify under-employment as well as unemployment. Has the job-hunter got dependants? Is he the breadwinner? What effort has been made to find employment? The data collected need to be thoroughly cross-analysed. We should not just seek to know what the percentage of the unemployed is in each occupation, but what percentage of each occupation is unemployed.
We cannot learn these things from the employment exchange register in its pre-
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sent form. The register data could be made more accurate by separating the employment from the social welfare functions, by computerising and by further cross-analysing data. Whatever measures are taken to improve information from the register, surveys are needed to supplement the register as a source of data. Surveys are a well-established method of doing this in developed countries. They are regularly carried out in the United States, Canada, Japan, Germany and Italy. The National Institute Review estimated that whereas the published rate of unemployment for all workers in 1970 was 2·6 per cent., a household survey would have revealed a figure of 3·9 per cent.
My hon. Friend will be aware that the 1966 census actually revealed a colossal discrepancy. It discovered 186,000 more people job hunting than the register showed. Clearly a comprehensive survey like the census is the most effective way of gaining information. The analysis of the 1971 census will no doubt confirm this. Regular household surveys have an equally valuable räle in between censuses. We would have to resist the temptation to base samples on national insurance numbers. Such a system would leave out of account those seeking but unable to enter the labour force. We need information about jobs going wanting as well as those wanting jobs. Household counts should be supplemented by surveys of employers, commercial agencies and newspaper advertisements. Information about vacancies is woefully inadequate. At most 25 per cent. of jobs available are notified to employment exchanges.
All this sounds expensive but what is the real cost compared with the cost in human misery and wasted output resulting from a continuous high level of unemployment such as we have in the Northern Region? Sample surveys in the Northern Region carried out under the auspices of a professional body such as the Central Statistical Office should cost no more than one-tenth of the cost of the census in this region. Nationally every 1 per cent. of unemployment represents a loss in potential output of goods and services of about £350 million a year. The development areas are the obvious places for pilot projects. I suggest starting this winter.

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All of us warmly welcome the downward trend revealed by the figures published yesterday but in the North it is a trend that starts from an unemployment rate of 7 per cent. in September compared with a national rate of 3·9 per cent. We can never be complacent about such a disparity. Present statistics may serve to demonstrate trends, but they mainly serve as a stick with which to beat the Government—happily, though, not this month.
I should like information so improved that it will make possible an effective manpower policy and, more purposeful training and retraining of our labour force to do work for which there is a known or projected demand. There are said to be 2,843 surplus clerical workers in the Northern Region. This information is useful. It tells us what we need to do. It tells the Government of the need to disperse Civil Service offices and to encourage business headquarters to set up in the North. Teesside, where my constituency is, manages to combine higher-than-average unemployment with a bottleneck in certain skills. We must identify in order to train and similarly to use any known surplus of skills to attract new industry.
We need urgently to improve information in order to get the maximum benefit from the Common Market assistance which will shortly be available to us. The European Social Fund gives financial aid for vocational retraining of unemployed or under-employed workers and for resettling workers who have to move to get new jobs, helping workers temporarily stopped while a firm changes its basic activities. Similarly, the ECSC assists in retraining and resettling redundant people in the coal and steel industries. Assistance given under these schemes amounted to 300 million dollars to the end of 1970, and this is expected to increase.
I am sure that my hon. Friend will not disagree with me that diagnosis must come before cure. In order to diagnose we must first be informed. Having listened so patiently to my arguments, I hope that he will tell me that he intends to secure better information and that he will make a start this winter by initiating pilot surveys.
1.3 a.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Dudley Smith): My hon. Friend the Member for Middles-brough, West (Mr. Sutcliffe) was right to talk about the good news we have had today about the latest very encouraging unemployment figures. While we must not read too much into one month's figures, there is cause for satisfaction that the Government's measures in this direction are beginning to work.
My hon. Friend will appreciate that the actual creation of employment in development areas is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, through the revised and increased incentives now offered in the Industry Act, 1972; and, as he will know, very substantial changes of organisation have been made to ensure rapid and more flexible implementation of these policies. We for our part in the Department of Employment have a responsibility, as my hon. Friend points out, to see that these new policies are supported appropriately by adequate information, and we do not underestimate the difficulties.
That means, primarily, information as to the kinds of manpower, including female labour reserves that are available in different places; to levels of earnings; so far as possible, to the intentions of employers and to local trends in employment and unemployment which point up those areas on which attention needs to be focussed.
The question my hon. Friend has raised amounts, in effect to asking what forms of local labour market intelligence we need to operate regional policy and what is the best way of collecting it—whether by way of household surveys or by other means. This is naturally a question which has been occupying our minds very much. Of course, we have always been active in this field. It would be wrong to underestimate, as I know is sometimes done, the wealth of knowledge of our local managers of their own areas, arising from their day to day operations—combined with the indicators we can give them of local unemployment, employment, activity rates, and so on.
But I do not propose to dwell on this aspect, because the discussion tonight is not about the effectiveness of what is

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done, but about what more can be done and how, and whether through household surveys. Household surveys are generally most useful for providing national figures where one is not looking for very precise information about sub-groups.
If one is seeking to identify sub-groups, for example, unemployed people or people with particular skills or backgrounds, then of course the size of the sample required has to be very large, or they will not contain a sufficient number of the people concerned. Past experience shows, too, that questions requiring very precise answers, such for example as the level and type of skill of the householder, are frequently not properly answered and require a particularly high level of interviewing, even to get approximately satisfactory replies.
None of us, after all, is always particularly modest about our achievements, and if we are asked about them, some of us can be pretty reticent about our motives. That presents considerable difficulties for those conducting surveys.
Consequently, surveys seeking the kinds of precise answer that would be useful to us in the context my hon. Friend has in mind are less useful and much more demanding in terms of resources than might appear at first sight. If we ask ourselves how to apply our limited resources to best effect most quickly to get a continuous and accurate picture of changing local labour market requirements, particularly in development areas and of labour reserves, I do not think that we would decide to go about it this way.
Of course, that does not at all rule out the use of interviewing and household survey techniques to get at particular aspects of the labour market where the changes that are taking place are slower to operate. We sponsor a good deal of research of this kind. It includes research into the absorption of labour after major redundances—a subject of particular concern in development areas—and the characteristics of specific groups of unemployed people, such for example as the long-term unemployed. This kind of research is not a substitute for better statistical knowledge or better labour market knowledge. It is designed to supplement them both.
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I should now like to say something about the usefulness of household survey techniques for more general statistical purposes. Since the end of the Second World War, household surveys have been increasingly used in many countries as a means of providing information about changes in the economic and social characteristics of the population. In some cases, these surveys are referred to as labour force surveys, when they have concentrated primarily on providing information about the labour force, and its main components, and on employment and unemployment, and how these relate to numbers in the total population.
Current public interest and concern with the higher levels of unemployment here have prompted a number of commentators, and my hon. Friend, to criticise our present unemployment statistics. The critics suggest that better quality figures could be obtained from surveys addressed to representative samples of households, instead of relying, as at present, on those registering at employment exchanges.
I do not propose to consider in depth because of the lack of time, the various criticisms which have been made about the present unemployment statistics for the United Kingdom. The make-up of these statistics and their presentation have just been considered by an Inter-Departmental Working Party of officials and their most useful and important report is now being considered by Ministers.
I expect that it will probably be published in a few weeks' time, and I think that it would be better to defer further discussion of the present unemployment statistics, and of their presentation, until then and I am sure my hon. Friend would agree.
I must stress that it is particularly important that statistics of employment and unemployment should continue to be obtained for local areas, because of their vital role in determining regional policies and other planning requirements.
This means that information from labour force surveys could be used to supplement, but not to replace existing unemployment data. It is inevitable that such information would conflict, to some extent, with trends shown by the traditional figures, but these disadvantages

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would be more than offset if household surveys contributed significantly to out better understanding of labour force trends, for example, about the relative movements of employment and unemployment and how both of these are related to changes in the total population.
The labour force surveys might also provide additional useful information on other relationships, for example, about the social and economic characteristics of those seeking work which my hon. Friend referred to. Additional questions aimed at providing information of topical interest can also be included. At the present time, when the Government are launching new schemes for training opportunities, it would be useful to include questions about training and occupation. Some information of the kind provided by labour force surveys becomes available periodically from the more comprehensive censuses of population, and we look forward to studying the detailed information which is now beginning to emerge from the most important 1971 Census of Population.
Another recent development is the General Household Survey, which is a small continuous household survey addressed to about 15,000 households a year. The relatively small size of this survey means that it can only contribute a limited amount of information about labour force trends. Its primary purpose is to explore on a continuous basis some of the changing relationships over a very wide variety of topics, covering employment, education, health, housing and so on.
Member states of the European Economic Community have periodically participated in labour force surveys, which have been designed to provide comparable information about labour force trends for the community as a whole. The next EEC Labour Force Survey will be carried out in 1973 and the United Kingdom has been invited to participate. The survey in the United Kingdom would be expected to cover about 100,000 households and, if we participated, it would offer an excellent opportunity to assess the value of information obtained from the household surveys. Nevertheless, the survey is expensive and the net
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cost to the United Kingdom is expected to be of the order of £500,000. I must tell my hon. Friend that the Government have not yet decided whether or not the United Kingdom should participate. My hon. Friend's comments tonight are valuable and will be borne in mind in this connection.
The question still remains, if household surveys are of limited usefulness for local labour market intelligence work, which way do we go to get information relevant to these, and to regional policies? From last December, my Department has been conducting experiments in nine areas on how the collection and use of local labour market information can best be developed in the interests of work people. Emphasis has been placed on finding out direct from employers what developments they expect which will affect manpower demand in the local market. The object of the experiment is to see whether we can collate information of this kind so as to make it available to others, with due regard for confidentiality and in a way in which all concerned with manpower planning will find useful. If the experiments this year are judged successful, they will be extended to other areas. We shall hope to be able to build up a two-way exchange of information on local developments and perhaps also to anticipate wider trends.
This therefore is the way we are already going. We all hope that it will help not only to impart greater knowledge and realism into regional development but be of wider significance in forming national labour policy. We are by no means complacent about this question. The results are important and significant in getting the right type of data. We are making active plans for the whole reformation of the employment service to improve many aspects of that service, not least of which is job notification which is very important.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments, which we shall study. I assure my hon. Friend that we will spare no effort to continue our efforts to reduce the general level of unemployment.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at fifteen minutes past One o'clock.

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  Ugandan Asians
  Civil Servants (Fees)
  Civil Servants (Fees)
  Companies (Investigations)
  Companies (Investigations)
  Mr. Walter Smith (Marriage)
  Mr. Walter Smith (Marriage)
  Mr. Maurice O'Regan (Trial Costs)
  Mr. Maurice O'Regan (Trial Costs)
  Criminal Evidence (Report)
  Criminal Evidence (Report)
NORTHERN IRELAND
  Law and Order (Civil Police)
  Law and Order (Civil Police)
  Referendum
  Referendum
  Local Elections
  Local Elections
  Commission
  Commission
  Darlington Conference
  Darlington Conference
  Security
  Security
EMPLOYMENT
  Unemployed
  Unemployed
  Disabled Persons (Reading)
  Disabled Persons (Reading)
  Newark
  Newark
ENVIRONMENT
  Lodging Houses
  Lodging Houses
  Pollution Control (Cost)
  Pollution Control (Cost)
  Parking Restrictions (Orange Badges)
  Parking Restrictions (Orange Badges)
  Government Land (Development)
  Government Land (Development)
  Pensioners' Housing (Newham)
  Pensioners' Housing (Newham)
  Pedestrian Crossings
  Pedestrian Crossings
  Economic Planning Councils
  Economic Planning Councils
TRADE AND INDUSTRY
  Alma Road, Windsor (Damage)
  Alma Road, Windsor (Damage)
  Shepperton Studios
  Shepperton Studios
  Ball-bearing Industry
  Ball-bearing Industry
  Railways (Deficit)
  Railways (Deficit)
  Financial Aid
  Financial Aid
  Copyright
  Copyright
  National Coal Board (Brickworks)
  National Coal Board (Brickworks)
  Steel Industry (Price Restraint)
  Steel Industry (Price Restraint)
  London Airport (Security)
  London Airport (Security)
WALES
  Midlands—Newport Road Link
  Midlands—Newport Road Link
CIVIL SERVICE
  Citizen Advice Offices
  Citizen Advice Offices
  SOCIAL SERVICES (STAFF)
  SOCIAL SERVICES (STAFF)
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  REGIONAL EMPLOYMENT (DEPARTMENTAL CO-ORDINATION)
  REGIONAL EMPLOYMENT (DEPARTMENTAL CO-ORDINATION)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Icelandic Fishing Limits
  Icelandic Fishing Limits
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Kenya (Land Transfer)
  Kenya (Land Transfer)
  World Population Year
  World Population Year
  Space Objects (Convention)
  Space Objects (Convention)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Value Added Tax
  Value Added Tax
SCOTLAND
  New Towns (Senior Officials)
  New Towns (Senior Officials)
  Churches (Preservation)
  Churches (Preservation)
SOCIAL SERVICES
  War Pensioners
  War Pensioners
  National Insurance Contributions
  National Insurance Contributions

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Exeter.

VIETNAM: INTERNATIONAL CONTROL COMMISSION
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will use their good offices as Chairman of the Geneva Conference on Indo-China to resolve the dispute between the International Control Commission for Vietnam and the Saigon Administration which has led the Commission to transfer its headquarters to Hanoi.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, neither Her Majesty's Government nor the international Control Commission consider that there has been any dispute between the Commission and the Government of the Republic of Vietnam. The dispute to which the noble Lord is referring is no doubt that between the Government of India and the Government of the Republic of Vietnam. This arose following a decision of the Government of India in January, 1972, to raise the status of its representation in Hanoi to that of an Embassy.
The International Control Commission has made the internal administrative change of moving its headquarters to Hanoi. But the International Control Commission continues to be represented in both Saigon and Hanoi. We have not intervened in this bilateral dispute since neither the juridical basis nor the practical effectiveness of the International Control Commission's work are affected by the move.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, in thanking the Minister for that very full reply, may I ask him whether he would agree that the International Commission
2004
in its earlier years did very effective work but later was ignored—even boycotted? Is it not the case that, despite what he has said, the change from Saigon to Hanoi has been the result of the Saigon Government's refusal to extend the visas of the Indian delegation on the Commission which has compelled them to leave.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, that may well be so; but the dispute, as I say, is between the Government of India and the Government of the Republic of Vietnam in this matter. I quite agree with what the noble Lord says that the Control Commission in its early days was more effective than it is now, but we still hope it has a useful part to play.
LORD DAVIES OF LEEK: My Lords, would the noble Marquess, after that full Answer, endeavour to have placed in our Library a complete, bound volume of all the reports of the International Control Commission because, without prejudice, just to read it would make some people come to conclusions different from those they have reached already. I should not like to prejudice my question, but I believe that it would be worth while doing that.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I will certainly look into the matter raised by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek.

OXFORD LISTED BUILDING ALTERATION
3.9 p.m.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Oxford City Council consulted the Ancient Monuments Society and the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings, as they are required to do by statutory regulation, before permitting the partial demolition of 126 Oxford High Street, a Grade 1 listed building; and if not, whether the Secretary of State for the Environment will refer the matter to the Director of Public Prosecutions.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (LORD SANDFORD): My Lords, as this proposal was dealt with as an alteration of a listed building, the direction requiring notification of national amenity societies did not apply.
LORD KENNET: But, my Lords, since in fact the greater part of the building was demolished, was it not an indefensible way of dealing with it on the part of the Oxford City Council that they should have called it an alteration?
LORD SANDFORD: That is a matter of opinion, my Lords. The question of whether an operation is an "alteration" or a "demolition" is a matter in the first case for the judgment of the local planning authority and, in the last resort, of the courts. It is not for me to pass judgment on it.
LORD BURNTWOOD: My Lords, is there not a point where destruction or partial destruction of a building ends and irreparable damage is started, so that the building can no longer be restored to its previous condition? Are there any rules on this subject?
LORD SANDFORD: Indeed, my Lords, whether it is an alteration or a demolition my Department has to be informed, and they were in this case. The proposal has to be advertised, and it was in this case. A site notice has to be placed on the building, and it was in this case.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, is it not the case that the whole building was demolished except the facade? If the Church authorities were to put in for permission to alter St. Paul's and were to demolish the whole thing except for the West front, would the Government act in that case?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, in a case like that the issue would be clear enough. In this particular case it is certainly not true that the whole of the
2006
building behind the facade was altered. The back portion of it has been altered.
VISCOUNT ADDISON: My Lords, did the City Council have authority to demolish any of the building?
LORD SANDFORD: No, my Lords. As I explained in answer to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Burntwood, just now, no authority can demolish a listed building—and this is a Grade I building—without due authority, without notifying my Department, without adveristing their proposal in the Press, and without putting a site notice on the building. All those three things were done.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, would the noble Lord describe the advertising in the Press? Would one small paragraph in very small print on one day be sufficient?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I should need notice to be able to answer that question accurately. I do not have the full information on the precise size of the advertisement as it appeared, but I can look into that and let the noble Baroness know.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, I apologise if I missed it during the ensuing discussion, but did the noble Lord answer the last part of my Question: will the Government refer this matter to the Director of Public Prosecutions?
LORD SANDFORD: No, my Lords. Furthermore, even if the point that I made in my original Answer did not apply, I am advised that a failure to comply with a direction under this legislation does not constitute a criminal offence.
LORD DAVIES OF LEEK: My Lords, is the Society for Ancient Monuments and, to give its full title, the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings, keeping its eye on the Houses of Parliament and the bumping and thumping that is now shaking the foundations here?

AIR FARES AND I.A.T.A. MEETING
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress was made at the recent annual meeting of IATA held in London on the desirability of providing individual excursion fares for air travellers in view of the statement by the Prime Minister that it was for IATA to make sure that the benefits of travel were made available to as many people as possible and as cheaply as possible; and if they will make a Statement.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (THE EARL OF LIMERICK): My Lords, the speech of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister to the IATA annual general meeting left no doubt about Her Majesty's Government's view on the desirability of simple and inexpensive air transport on international routes. This annual general meeting was a comparatively short meeting at which no detailed fare discussions took place. Discussions on fares are at present taking place among the airlines at Torremolinos. As the noble Baroness knows, the Civil Aviation Authority are responsible for the consideration and approval of air fares. I understand that they are keeping in touch with the discussions, and would, I am sure, be glad to give the noble Baroness any information they can.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl. While finding no indication in the Prime Minister's speech that his suggestions should be limited to the North Atlantic routes, could the Minister say whether the IATA discussions in Torremolinos, adjourned, I believe, until November 8, will include the matter of part charters in Europe?
THE EARL OF LIMERICK: My Lords, these matters are under consideration. As the noble Baroness will know, arrangements of this sort require the agreement not only of the airlines but of the Gov
2008
ernments at both ends of the route. Initially the invitation to apply for licences concerned the North Atlantic and Caribbean, but it is to be hoped that it will be extended at a later date to other routes as well.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, in thanking the Minister for that reply, and taking it that he said that part charters in Europe will be discussed at Torremolinos, may I ask him whether he realises that what is required is an advance booking scheme by which individual members of the public, prepared to book, say, three months in advance, may be able to reserve seats on scheduled flights anywhere? And would the Government emphasise to IATA the words of the Prime Minister:
"If scheduled carriers do not provide simple and inexpensive transport, these passengers wilt look elsewhere and no-one could blame them."
THE EARL OF LIMERICK: My Lords, I think the emphasis to IATA was given by the Prime Minister himself. This statement received a great deal of publicity and undoubtedly would have been carefully noted. The question of seats on scheduled services is of course quite a different one, but the noble Baroness will know that there are many facilities currently available. I would mention "Early bird" fares to Bermuda, the Bahamas and the Caribbean, already in existence, Apex advanced purchase excursion fares available to points in Scandinavia, and the Ipex scheme which is available to Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam. There are many facilities of this sort currently available on scheduled airlines.
LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURY: My Lords, does not my noble friend agree that the British air operators are to be congratulated on taking the lead in this matter among world operators, and could every encouragement be given to apply the same treatment elsewhere?
THE EARL OF LIMERICK: My Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, would the noble Earl convey to his noble colleague, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, that the steps he has taken to clear up the mess of the affinity groups are wholly welcome; but would he also bear in mind that there is much to be done if the

2009
Prime Minister's admirable objective in regard to individual fare-paying passengers is to be achieved? And as the Prime Minister made such an excellent speech on this matter recently, would he advise his right honourable friend in future to confine his speeches to this sphere?
THE EARL OF LIMERICK: My Lords, dealing with the first part of the supplementary question by the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, yes, I will certainly ensure that the attention of my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter is drawn to this point.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he would advise his colleague, the Prime Minister, to make a similar speech to British Rail?

BRITISH AIRWAYS WEST LONDON TERMINAL
3.18 p.m.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, if it meets the convenience of your Lordships, and in view of the undertaking which my noble friend the Leader of the House gave to the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, at Question Time yesterday, I should like to make a further Statement on the West London Air Terminal.
In order to clarify their position B.E.A. have to-day issued a statement, and with your Lordships' permission I will read it. The statement is as follows:
"B.E.A. are co-operating with the Metra Consulting Group on a study being made at Heathrow Airport. The Corporation wish to make it clear that they have made no decision to withdraw check-in facilities at the West London Air Terminal and furthermore that no decision will be taken until after the Metra Report has been completed. The Report is expected about the end of this year."
My Lords, that is the end of B.E.A.'s statement.
The House will recall that on August 4 last I gave the noble Baroness an assurance that B.E.A.'s decision to close the check-in facilities at the West London Air Terminal would be delayed until after the Metra Consulting Group's Report was made. The statement which has been issued by B.E.A. to-day makes it clear that the assurance which I gave to this House on August 4 stands.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I should like to thank the Minister and the Leader of the House for obtaining this statement. May I say that I welcome the co-operation being shown between B.E.A. and the Metra Group. May I ask the Minister whether this corrected statement will be published by B.E.A. in a forthcoming edition of their B.E.A. News, because in the edition of October 12 some three pages were given to the erroneous statement that was made last week?
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, I am aware of what was written in that newspaper, and it is in order to clarify the position that B.E.A. have made this statement to-day. I am quite certain that it would be improper for me to conjecture as to what would be put in the next issue of B.E.A.'s newspaper, but I am sure they have every desire to see that their reports are as accurate as possible.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, we admire the use of the word "clarify" here, but may one ask the noble Earl whether "controvert" would not be a better word to use?
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, if it had been a better word, I would have used it.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, is the noble Earl trying to deny that it would be a more accurate word?
EARL FERRERS: No, my Lords, I was trying to clarify the position.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, can the noble Earl tell us how members of the public can get in touch with the Metra Consulting Group, assuming that they do not have the good fortune to be questioned by the Group at Heathrow?
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, the Metra Consulting Group are undertaking a certain project which has been laid on by my right honourable friend, and they have had to determine how best to get in touch with members of the public. As I told my noble friend on a previous occasion, some 1,200 people have been consulted.
LORD TREFGARNE: Yes, my Lords; but is it possible to write to the Group?
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, if my noble friend has any point which he wishes to draw to their attention, if he would be kind enough to let me have it I will see that it is passed on to the Group concerned.

PEERS' RECEPTION FOR STAFF
3.22 p.m.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, with the leave of the House my noble friend Lord Lothian will be making a Statement on the Icelandic fisheries dispute at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m.
As many of your Lordships will know, there is to be a party for the staff of the House to-night as a sign of our appreciation of their work during what has been an exceptionally gruelling Session. In order that as many of the staff as possible may attend this party, I hope that the House may be able to adjourn by 6 o'clock, when the party starts. Secondly, I am sure that your Lordships will agree to the Peers' Guest Room and the Bishops' Bar being closed at 6 o'clock in order that the staff who have looked after us so well so far as liquid refreshment is concerned may also get to the Party.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, would it not be possible to try to discover sonic different nomenclature than that which is now applied to "the Bishops' Bar"? Is it not a fact that the use of this term creates an entirely erroneous impression among people outside as to the habits of the right reverend Prelates?
THE LORD BISHOP OF SOUTHWARK: My Lords, may I ask why the noble Lord opposite should think that it gives an erroneous impression?
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, in view of the comment of the right reverend Prelate, I really do not feel that any further remarks from me are necessary.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that I hope he will not alter the name, because the Bishops' Bar is the only place here where one can get a drink on sanctified ground?

MUSEUMS AND GALLERIES ADMISSION CHARGES BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments: the said Amendments to be printed.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL
3.24 p.m.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty The Queen and His Royal Highness The Prince of Wales that they, having been informed of the purport of the Local Government Bill, have consented to place their prerogatives and interests, so far as they are concerned on behalf of the Crown, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Aberdare.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD HAILSHANI OF SAINT MARYLEBONE): My Lords, I now have to call Amendment No. 1, but perhaps I should draw the attention of the House to the fact that the three Amendments on the Marshalled List, Amendments Nos. 1, 4 and 16, cannot be read except in connection with the Bill as amended on Report, and the printed copy of the Bill which is before your Lordships is the Bill as it was amended on Committee. Therefore, I propose, in calling Amendment No. 1, to point out to your Lordships that the text of the Bill as amended on Report on page 6, line 45 should be:
"of metropolitan district councillors are held, and …"
I call Amendment No. 1.
Clause 8 [Constitution and membership of Greater London Council and London borough councils]:
LORD GARNSWORTHY LORD GARNSWORTHY moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 6, line 45 (as amended on Report by Amendment 31), after ("of") leave out ("metropolitan") and insert ("non-metropolitan").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Clause 8 deals with the constitution and membership of the Greater London Council and the London borough councils. The Amendment I move is to what was line 45 of page 6 of the Bill as it was before Report. It is to leave out "metropolitan" and insert"non-metropolitan "after" of". The word "metropolitan" was inserted at Report stage. I said then that it was a matter of regret that the Amendment had not been introduced at the Committee stage, since this would have permitted a freer discussion of its merits. I asked that some further thought might be given to the points of criticism I had made, and the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, said that he would be glad to look at it again. He repeated a little later, at column 1687 of the OFFICIAL REPORT for October 17:
"I will certainly look at it again."
I indicated that it might be necessary to table an Amendment at Third Reading. This matter was dealt with only on Report, on Tuesday, and because of the time factor, and in the absence of any indication as to whether or what thought had been given to the matter, I had no alternative but to table this Amendment last evening, since manuscript Amendments are not allowed on Third Reading.
May I say that I have no criticism to make of the noble Viscount? This Bill has placed on Ministers in this House a very heavy burden. It has been, not only for them but I think for everybody taking an active part in it, a somewhat gruelling experience. Whatever blame there is must be attached, I think, not to Ministers who have been responsible for this Bill, but to the very unsatisfactory arrangement of the Government's legislative programme in this and the other place. Further, I fully understand that the noble Viscount has many other responsibilities ranging over a very wide field, and that he has been considerably stretched. May I say that this week I have admired the
2014
manner in which he has endeavoured to discharge the variety of responsibilities that have been placed on him.
I asked him on Report whether there has been, or whether it is intended that there shall be, any consultations with the London Boroughs Association. I should certainly like an answer on that point, because I think that, as the clause is now worded, the London boroughs will be committed to annual elections. When the noble Viscount was speaking on Tuesday he said, and I refer to column 1687:
"… there was a firm undertaking given earlier that no order would be made under this subsection (2) against the wishes of the London boroughs."
May I now quote what was said by Mr. Graham Page when the matter was before the other place? On July 17 at columns 116 and 117 he said:
"On the issue of annual or quadrennial elections, we have taken powers to proceed by order, after consultation with all those concerned. The last thing I wanted to do was to rush it into the Bill. That is why we have taken those powers for the Secretary of State. In using the phrase `taking powers' I am repeating what my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington, South (Sir B. Rhys Williams) said. We are taking those powers for the benefit of the Greater London Council and the London boroughs to enable us to do what they want us to do. I assure my hon. Friend that there is no question of the Secretary of State ordering something which is not wanted by those local authorities."
The position of the metropolitan districts—and it is what is proposed in the Bill for metropolitan districts that will apply in London as the clause now stands—is set out on page 4 of the Bill at Clause 6(1)(b), which states:
"every metropolitan district shall be divided into wards, each returning a number of councillors which is divisible by three".
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS): It is Clause 6(2)(b).
LORD GARNSWORTHY: Then, my Lords, if I may quote Clause 7—
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Clause 7(2).
LORD GARNSWORTHY: I think the Minister has the point, so I need not weary the House by reading it. But it certainly lays down that one-third of the council will retire every year. In case there is any doubt about that, may I

2015
refer to page 238, paragraph 4, which certainly lays that down. If the Minister will look at paragraph 4, towards the bottom of the page, I think he will see that I am accurate in what I have said. Therefore, this will mean annual elections for London, except in the year of county elections. London has always had triennial elections; it is traditional. The requirement to have three member wards, or multiples of three, will cause a tremendous upheaval in London which, again by tradition, has a varying number of councillors for wards, some having one, some having two, some having three or four or even more. London was reorganised some ten years ago, with consequent upheaval. Ward boundaries were completely redrawn, and I am informed that some of the reorganisation of wards was not completed until this year. If the Minister is to require three member wards, the whole system will have to be upset again. The effect of my Amendment would be to keep options open and to allow unfettered consultations to take place.
Clause 7(4) reads as follows:
"Subject to subsection (5) below, a non-metropolitan district council may in pursuance of the requisite resolution request the Secretary of State to provide—

(a) for a system of whole council elections, that is to say, the holding of the ordinary elections of all the councillors of the district simultaneously; or

(b) for a system of elections by thirds, that is to say, the election of one-third, as nearly as may be, of the councillors of the district at the ordinary elections of such councillors in any year".

That would appear to me to be in line with what I understood the Minister to mean when he dealt with the position in July. I hope that I have clearly understood the position under the Bill, because my motive in putting this Amendment forward this afternoon is to be as helpful as I possibly can be to ensure that in the case of London they have the choice, that consultations—when they take place—will be unfettered, and that it will be possible for the London boroughs themselves to decide which is to their advantage and to their liking. The Amendment also confers on them the same degree of choice, the same element of freedom, in regard to this matter as non-metropolitan districts have throughout the
2016
rest of the country. My Lords, I beg to move.
3.35 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, may I first very sincerely thank the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, for his kind words about me? I am sorry that I was half-witted about this matter the other day, but it is a very difficult point of drafting and the noble Lord need make no apology whatever for coming back to it. The Bill in the present form is, I promise him, right. His Amendment would add uncertainty and possibly lack of powers to make the choice that he and I both want. May I try to explain to him why? It is the most subtle point that I have come across for a long time, and it has taken me practically all morning to understand it myself.
The situation is this. Under the Bill, the metropolitan district councils will get elected, as the noble Lord said—I am not taking into account at all the transitional provisions; I am talking about when the system gets properly under way—as to one-third in the first year, another third in the second year, a third third in the third year and in the fourth year there will be a rest. That is the year of county elections. There will be no elections for the metropolitan districts in that year. That is the invariable position under the Bill for metropolitan districts. For non-metropolitan districts, the prima facie position, the normal position, unless they do something about it, is that all the councillors will get elected every fourth year being a year about half-way between the county council elections. But they have a choice, if they want it, to have an order made, district council by district council, by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to go over to the metropolitan district council system so that they, too, will have a third of the council elected in the first three years of the cycle and then a fallow year in the fourth. Therefore, when this system gets fully into operation, some non-metropolitan district councils will be on the four-yearly election basis for the whole council, and some may choose to go on to the other system which the metropolitan districts will all have.
What we want to do is to ensure that the London boroughs have the fullest possible choice open to them—because

2017
I entirely agree with the noble Lord that my right honourable friend in another place made the statement which the noble Lord read out—and we do not wish in any way to circumscribe the area of consultation which will take place before any change occurs. Therefore, we have the situation that we want to get the Bill right so that the orders can be made in the widest number of forms possible. There are three possibilities. The London borough councils might want to stay as they are and have all council elections every three years, all members coming up and standing together every three years. That is the present system. They might want to go over to a system, which is the normal system for non-metropolitan councils, whereby they all get elected every fourth year instead of every third year. Or they might want to go over to a system whereby they are brought into line with the metropolitan districts and have elections of a third, a third and a third in the first three years, and then a fallow year in the fourth. We want to make perfectly certain that we can bring about all three of those situations.
As to the first, it is perfectly plain that that will be achieved if no order at all is made. Therefore, if that was what was wanted there would be no need to use the powers under Clause 8(2)(b) and (c) at all. What we want to make sure is that we can carry out the other two options under the powers in the Bill. Now we can and I will tell the noble Lord how. If they want to go over to a system of electing all their members not once every three years but once every four years then one looks very carefully indeed at Clause 8(2)(b). The wording here is crucial because the order can secure that the ordinary elections of London borough councillors are held in years in which ordinary elections of metropolitan district councillors are held—not in the same years, but in years. All one has to do, therefore, is to choose a year or a series of years at four-yearly intervals (I have done the mathematics, and it works) when the metropolitan district councils will be having one of their three phases of election, and then one turns over the London borough councils, so that they have the full council election in any one
2018
of those three years. By that method they can change over from a three-yearly to a four-yearly cycle using the words in Clause 8(2)(b) alone. I have done the mathematics on the number of years that are required, and it will work. There will be a four-yearly cycle which coincides with there being an election for one of the one-thirds of the metropolitan districts in that year.
The other choice—that is to say, if they want to go over fully to the metropolitan district council system of having four-yearly cycles but with elections of one-third of the members in all of the first three—requires an order under Clause 8(2)(b) and Clause 8(2)(c), because, first of all, under Clause 8(2)(b) you say that there will be three elections of a third each (that is, again, years in which the ordinary elections of metropolitan districts are held, so the order covers that) and then, under Clause 8(2)(c), you secure that for the fourth year the councillors so elected do not have to retire as they do under the present law, but can continue to stay for the fourth year without there being any retirement. That is the way it would work. I agree that it is exceedingly complicated, but that is the way it would work.
My Lords, I do not want to take this too fast because I know that it is extremely complicated. May I just mention the point about three-member wards? If the London boroughs wish to remain on a triennial cycle of elections for the whole council, there is no necessity for them to alter the number of members per ward. If they want to go over to a four-yearly cycle of the whole council, there is no necessity for them to alter the number of members in a ward. Only if they wish to adopt the metropolitan district council system and have one-third of their councillors retiring for the first of each of the three years of the four-year cycle do they require to go over to a three-member ward system. Therefore, there are two choices left to them whereby they do not have to do it, and one whereby they can. My Lords, I have explained the system. The drafting of the Bill allows all those three options to be open to the London boroughs, for them to consult about it to their hearts' content with my right honourable friend.

2019
If we put in the noble Lord's "non-metropolitan districts" instead of metropolitan districts" as in the Bill, we get into the position that there will be two different forms of election going for non-metropolitan districts, one of them being the normal system of a full election every four years and the other, in some cases, being the metropolitan district pattern. In those circumstances, which, in law, are the years in which ordinary elections of non-metropolitan district councillors can be said to be held? There will be no general pattern; and there is doubt, I am advised—and I must say that I agree with this—whether there would be powers, under that wording, to make all the sorts of order that we both agree should be made. I assure the noble Lord that all the options are open under the wording "metropolitan". If we use the wording "non-metropolitan", there is certainly doubt, and there could be challenges in the courts about anything other than leaving the system as it is. I have studied this very carefully. I am sorry if I have given an obscure explanation, but it is the very best I can do after a good deal of study and discussion. I hope that the noble Lord will be satisfied that we have looked at this matter carefully, obscure though it is, and that the fullest range of options is open, and will remain open, to the London boroughs under this drafting.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, earlier this afternoon one of the noble Lords on the Government Front Bench said that he wished to clarify something. I think we are involved in a process of clarification once again, and I think I am capable of following everything that has been said by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross. I simply want to clarify it a little further, and perhaps I can best do that by asking three questions. First, how will this consultation with the boroughs take place? Will each individual borough be consulted, or will the Association of London Boroughs be consulted? Secondly, will some of the boroughs be able to choose to have elections of one-third of their members every year; and, thirdly, if they do, will some
2020
others be able to choose to have the whole council retiring and being re-elected each three or four years?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, if I may, with leave, answer the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, I think it is important that we should get as much clarity into this matter as possible. As I understand it, the preliminary internal thoughts among the London boroughs themselves are being put together by the London Boroughs Association, and it will probably be with them that the consultations are held, for the reason (and this is in answer to the noble Lord's second question) that they all have to go the same way. They cannot switch about, one doing one thing and one doing the other. They will therefore have to form either a common or, at any rate, a majority view as to what is to be done and this, I think, would be most satisfactorily achieved through the Association.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, may I say how grateful I am to the noble Viscount for the very full explanation that he has given? It is indeed a very involved matter. I am not a lawyer, but I am fairly certain that I have grasped'what he has been explaining to the House. The advantage of this debate is that it will probably, or at least possibly, alert somebody in the other place to the points that we have been considering, and it will give them an opportunity to study what the noble Viscount has said here this afternoon. I have very great respect for his legal knowledge and ability, and at the moment I certainly cannot challenge anything that he has said. But I think the Commons, since the introduction of the word "metropolitan" was itself an Amendment, will have an opportunity, if they see fit, further to amend the clause. In those circumstances, I trust that your Lordships will feel that this debate has been worthwhile. I certainly feel that I have been justified in raising the point, and with your Lordships' permission I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 80 [Disqualifications for election and holding office as member of local authority.]:
3.48 p.m.
LORD GARNSWORTHY LORD GARNSWORTHY moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 56, line 28, at end insert—
("(6) In this section "joint committee" shall mean a joint committee appointed pursuant to section 101(1)(b) of this Act and "joint board" shall mean a joint board all the members of which are representatives of local authorities as provided by section 174(1)(e) of this Act.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this clause deals with disqualifications for election and holding office as far as membership of a local authority is concerned. During the progress of this Bill I have tried at each stage to reduce the limitations that apply to some of those working in local government. I have been unsuccessful, and I wish to carry that fight no further on this Bill. I think that at least something has been gained by the discussions on Amendments that have been moved by myself or by my noble friends, since the position as to persons working for joint boards or joint committees has been somewhat clarified.
Subsection (1) of the clause reads:
"Subject to the provisions of Section 81 below a person shall be disqualified for being elected or being a member of a local authority if he—

(a) holds any paid office or employment (other than the office of chairman, vice-chairman or deputy-chairman) appointments to which are or may be made or confirmed by the local authority or any committee or sub-committee of the authority or by a joint board or joint committee on which the authority are represented or by any person holding any such office or employment; or …".

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, for the definitions he gave as reported in col. 1733 of the OFFICIAL REPORT for October 17. I will spare your Lordships quoting what he said. It is there in the Record and for my purpose this afternoon that will suffice. I submit that what the Minister said is most helpful, except that what he said is not in the Bill, and when it becomes an Act it will matter little what he said. If a case arises and is taken before the courts there is going to be some considerable difficulty, and whoever hears the case will say, "It does not matter
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what the Minister said; I have to decide the issue on the words in the Act".
I suggest that if the definitions of joint boards and joint committees are written into the Bill along the lines of my Amendment the intention of Parliament will be clear. There is a great deal in Part VI about them. Clause 174 covers joint boards. I have tried to be helpful. It seems to me that defining here what is meant when the words "joint board" or "joint committee" are used would be extremely helpful and would avoid a great deal of trouble. I hope that the Amendment will commend itself to the Government and will be acceptable to your Lordships. I beg to move.

ICELANDIC FISHERIES DISPUTE
3.53 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I ask the permission of the House to repeat the Statement which has been made in another place this afternoon by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. This is the Statement:
"With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I would like to made a statement about the very regrettable and serious deterioration in the situation concerning our fishing vessels operating in the waters around Iceland.
"As a result of discussions held between my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary and the Icelandic Foreign Minister in New York on September 28, we have been able to clarify the positions of the two sides on a possible interim arrangement. There is indeed a wide gap between us but we feel on the British side that it is still worth while holding further discussions in an attempt to bridge the gap. We informed the Icelandic Government accordingly on October 11.
"On October 16, before any reply had been received, Icelandic gunboats embarked on a course of systematic interference with British vessels. In one case they have fired warning shots and in one case a gunboat attempting to cut the trawl wires of a British vessel collided with it, tearing a hole in the side of the trawler and endangering

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the lives of the crew. We shall be claiming compensation.
"I summoned the Icelandic Ambassador yesterday and formally protested at the Icelandic Government's action. I expressed to him the Government's sense of outrage, and that of Parliamentary and public opinion, at this resumption of Icelandic harassment. I made it clear that we reserve the right in the event of further interference to take, without further notice, such measures as we may consider appropriate to protect our vessels. Her Majesty's Ambassador in Reykjavik has spoken in similar terms to the Icelandic Foreign Minister.
"We still believe that it is in the interest of both Governments that discussions should continue and we have had the full support throughout of the trawler owners, skippers and crews in this. But I must make it plain that British vessels must be free from harassment.
"I would emphasise that throughout this unhappy dispute we for our part have acted entirely in accordance with international law and we shall continue to do so.
"In August we obtained an interim order from the International Court under which, and pending the final determination of the proceedings, we are required to observe certain restrictions on our catch in the waters in dispute, while the Government of Iceland are required to refrain from enforcing their regulations against British vessels and from interfering or threatening to interfere with them. The same order calls upon both Governments to avoid action capable of aggravating or extending the dispute. British vessels are fishing around Iceland in accordance with that order and the Government will continue to maintain their right to do so.
"The British Government and the British industry have behaved with great restraint during this dispute. That restraint is still being exercised. There is, I believe, still the opportunity for an early and amicable negotiated arrangement which will be satisfactory to both parties, pending a definite settlement. I must warn the Icelandic
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Government that we expect them to show the same restraint."
My Lords, that ends the Statement.
LORD HOY: My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Marquess for repeating the Statement made in another place. It is a Statement I am certain that neither House will have liked to hear, because it is a very serious one indeed and I am certain that the Government will do whatever they can to avoid another cod war.
May I ask one or two questions about the Statement? The Minister says:
"… we have been able to clarify the position of the two sides on a possible interim arrangement."
While there is a wide gap on a definitive statement, can the noble Marquess tell us how wide the gap is between the two Governments on what might be the possible arrangement in the intervening period? This is important. I suppose that it would be asking a little too much to ask what is the "interim arrangement" that has been suggested by the Government, but in any case we should like to know just what differences there may be. The Statement also says:
"we informed the Icelandic Government accordingly on October 11".
We know the action that they took on October 16. Are we to understand that even since that date they have still not replied to the letter from the British Government? While we note that the Government intend to take action I shall press to know what kind of action it is. When one thinks of the great reserve shown in this matter by the British industry it is good to know that the Government intend to protect British vessels, but we should all like to know what measures are proposed. I am sure that everything will be done to protect the lives of British fishermen.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hoy, for his remarks and entirely endorse the last statement he made, about protecting the lives of British fishermen—indeed, this is Her Majesty's Government's prime responsibility. The noble Lord will realise that I cannot give him any details about the negotiations which are proceeding at the present time except to say that, as I am sure he knows, a delegation has been in Iceland very re

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cently indeed and talks were progressing in a reasonably satisfactory manner. I am afraid that I cannot go further than that at the present time.
I think it is true to say that there has still been no reply from the Icelandic Government to the letter of October 11, although if I find that I am wrong I will let the noble Lord know.
LORD HENLEY: My Lords, I am very sorry that the Icelandic Government should have embarked on this course of harassment because I feel that it must damage any case they may have. I do not know whether under international law they have a case. While accepting everything that the noble Lord, Lord Hoy, has said about protecting the fishing industry and our fishermen, I feel that it ought to be said that many people nevertheless have some sympathy towards a small country like Iceland, with such very limited means of making their own livelihood.
THE MARQESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I think the answer to that is that this is one of the reasons why we want to come to an arrangement with the Icelandic Government which is agreeable to both sides.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, in the light of what happened some years ago in the cod war, and since the International Court found in our favour, do not the Government think that we ought to stop being pushed about and that our Navy should be sent in to protect our trawlers outside the 12-mile limit?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I have given the Government's undertaking that they will certainly take whatever measures are necessary to protect our fishing vessels in this respect.
LORD COLERAINE: My Lords, my noble friend, when repeating the Statement which was made in another place, said that we had observed our obligations under international law. I wonder whether he could define those in this respect. Have we the right under international law to protect our fishing vessels who are fishing outside the legal limit of 12 miles? If we have that right, are we exercising it?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, as my noble friend knows, I am no
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lawyer; but I think that I should be right in saying that under the interim injunction that we have obtained from the International Court we have the right that he is asking about.
LORD HOY: My Lords, is it not the case that on a previous occasion when this dispute was before the International Court and the decision went in favour of Iceland, Iceland was very grateful for the decision and we accepted it? Are we not now simply asking that Iceland should accept a decision from the same Court? While I do not want to widen this particular question, is it not the fact that talk of the limited economic possibilities for Iceland is rather exaggerated and that Iceland and her people at the present time—and we do not complain about it—enjoy just about the highest standard of living inside Europe?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, that is true. Nevertheless, I am sure that the House will wish to see this unhappy dispute satisfactorily concluded.
LORD COLERAINE: My Lords, is it not a fact that a very large number of our own people—on the Humber, in Scotland, at Fleetwood and at other fishing ports—depend upon the fishing industry for their livelihood? Should not that be our first consideration?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: Certainly, my Lords.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL
4.4 p.m.
Debate continued on Amendment No. 2.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND SCIENCE (LORD BELSTEAD): My Lords, as the Statement has intervened in the consideration of Amendment No. 2, perhaps your Lordships will forgive me if I repeat the purpose and effect of Lord Garnsworthy's Amendment which he has explained. As I understand it, the noble Lord's intention is to clarify the principal disqualification provision where it disqualifies a person who is holding an office or employment appointment which is made or confirmed by the local authority or a joint

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board or a joint committee on which the authority are represented. The effect of the Amendment is that it would declare that a joint committee means a committee appointed under Clause 101(1)(b) and a joint board would mean a board all the members of which are local authority representatives.
So far as joint committees are concerned, I think that we ought to realise that Clause 100(9) contains a long list of excepted enactments relating to education, police, social services and others. In these fields, any joint committee formed has to be formed under the excepted enactment; in other words, under Clause 109 as printed and not under Clause 101(1)(b) to which the Amendment refers. What would happen is that the Opposition Amendment would fail to include officers appointed by any joint committees of education, social services, police and so on. From what the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, has said, I know that this was not his intention, in that he would be making the disqualification more restrictive and, as I made clear on a previous stage, it would not be the intention of the Government. So far as the joint boards are concerned, here again the Amendment would be restrictive in that it refers to all the members. I think that it is desirable in this context to cater for the possibility of an appointment being made or confirmed by a body which does not consist entirely of local authority representatives and could perhaps include Ministerial appointments or co-opted appointments. It may be that the noble Lord does not agree with me: but if he does, it is again making Clause 80 more restrictive.
My Lords, I tried to give a definition of joint committee and joint board at column 1733 of the OFFICIAL REPORT for October 17. The noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy (at column 1740), was good enough to say that the explanation was of some help; and he has kindly repeated that to-day. What I hope emerged from that debate was that the apprehensions previously expressed about this matter of joint committees and joint boards are groundless. I appreciate what the noble Lord has said: that what he wants to see is a definition of these two bodies printed in the Bill. For the Record, there7 fore, may I repeat in abbreviated form
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what I said at column 1733. It was that a joint board is a board constituted under Section 6 of the Public Health Act 1936 or similar provision for the performance of functions which would otherwise fall on the constituent authority. Joint committees are committees of local authorities for the performance of local authority functions.
My Lords, this is a local government Bill, and I can assure the House that that is the way that joint boards and joint committees are understood in the local authority world. I appreciate the concern of noble Lords opposite about this disqualification clause; but unless it is the intention of the noble Lord to make the clause more restrictive then, with respect, I do not think that this Amendment will do. I hope on the other hand that perhaps my explanation will have been of some further help.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Belstead. I am sure that he appreciates that the last thing I want to do is to make the clause more restrictive. I think it would have been helpful if we had had some definition included within the clause. The House will appreciate that there has not been much time for those of us who are laymen in this field to draft Amendments or to secure help in drafting them. I still think that the point I have been striving to make is a valid one and that it deserves more attention. The pity of it is that no Amendment has been carried on this clause so that the other place will not be able to come back to it. That I very much regret. On the other hand, I would in no way wish to be responsible for adding to the number of those already disqualified since I think far too many are unnecessarily disqualified under the Bill at the present time.
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his patience. He, too, has had a gruelling week. Nevertheless, what he has said this afternoon may be helpful to those whose business it is to take care of this matter when the Bill becomes an Act. I appreciate the trouble that he has taken and in the circumstances I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD BELSTEAD: My Lords, before the Amendment is withdrawn, may I apologise to the House. The noble Lord

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is quite right: when I said "more restrictive", which I said about three or four times, I should, of course, have said, "less restrictive".
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I am in a quandary. I have been taken unawares and I should have liked an opportunity of appreciating exactly what is meant. But I accept that the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, wishes to be helpful and I think that I had better let the matter rest.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 1 [Counties and metropolitan districts in England.]:
LORD ROYLE LORD ROYLE moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 219, line 34, column 2, after ("Bramhall") insert ("and").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 3. It is in the name of my noble friend Lord Peddie, who apologises for the fact that he has had to leave the House. I can assure your Lordships that this is purely a drafting Amendment consequent on the decision of the House on Monday last to move Wilmslow from Greater Manchester into Cheshire.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I confirm that this Amendment to the previous Amendment is acceptable to the Government.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SANDYS LORD SANDYS moved Amendment No. 4:
Page 224 column 2, leave out lines 28 and 29 (as amended on Report by Amendments 6A and 7) and insert—
("the rural district of Warmley;
the rural district of Sodbury, except the parish of Alderley")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I apologise on behalf of my noble friend Lord Kinnoull for the fact that he is unavoidably absent this afternoon, and I beg to move this Amendment. It is purely a drafting Amendment and I can assure your Lordships that these words, as printed, follow as a direct consequence of our discussions on Monday. The Bill as amended on Report read, page 224, column 2, lines 28 and 29:
"The rural district of Sodbury except the parishes of Alderley and Warmley."
This was an error. The whole of the rural district of Warmley was then going to be excluded from Avon and placed inside Gloucestershire, which was not the intention of the Amendment. So the Amendment on the Marshalled List, as it reads now, is correct. We have to thank my noble friend Lord Bathurst who spotted this drafting error in column 133 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of Monday, October 16. I beg to move the Amendment.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Sandys has explained the reason for the Amendment and I am happy to accept it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
4.14 p.m.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, with your permission I should like to move en bloc Amendments Nos. 5 to 13:
Page 226, line 28, leave out ("the parish of Hum and") and insert ("the parishes of Hurn and St. Leonards and St. Ives").
Line 29, leave out ("south-west") and insert ("west").
Line 31, at end insert ("and so much of the parish of Sopley as lies west of the boundary referred to in paragraph 9A of Part III of this Schedule").
Page 230, line 42, leave out paragraph 8.
Page 231, line 1, leave out from ("line") to end of line 2 and insert ("from the neighbourhood of Barrett's Copse to the River Mude in the neighbourhood of Waterhouse Farm and thence along that river downstream to the parish boundary.
9A. The boundary dividing the parish of Sopley referred to in Part II of this Schedule shall be such as the Secretary of State may by order determine on or near the general line of the River Avon.").
Line 34, at end insert—
(" (kk) the part of the existing parish of Christchurch East in Hampshire").
Page 232, line 2, at end insert—
("(tt) the part of the existing parish of Sopley in Hampshire").
Leave out lines 14 and 15. Line 25, at end insert—
(" (8A) The part of the existing parish of Sopley in Dorset shall be added to the parish of Hurn.").
On Tuesday last I explained the reasons why the Government had withdrawn a number of Amendments relating to the Hampshire/Dorset boundary and the Government came in for a good deal of praise on this account. However, not everybody was yet satisfied, and the noble

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Lord the Leader of the Opposition suggested that if we took further consultations with some noble Lords who were interested in this matter we might be able to arrive at some new agreed Amendments. This in fact is what has happened. There have been consultations and I understand that all the different interests involved in this boundary have now agreed on the Amendments which are before your Lordships this afternoon.
In brief, the effect of them is to transfer the parish of St. Leonards and St. Ives to Dorset; to divide the parish of Sopley, after an. Order made by the Secretary of State, on or near the general line of the River Avon, and to divide the parish of Christchurch East so that the eastern end is in Hampshire while the western half is in the new Dorset. This increases the buffer zone we have been trying to establish in Hampshire around the western fringe of the New Forest. These are the implications of the Amendments, but I might just say a word about the position of Christchurch. One of the considerations which we have had in mind throughout the history of this difficult boundary has been the natural wish of Christchurch not to be absorbed with their larger and more powerful neighbours. In the discussion with noble Lords yesterday about the new boundary it was clear that that concern was shared generally. But the Boundary Commission has been set up as an authoritative and, above all, an independent advisory body and they will shortly be advising us on the district pattern for England. I understood that they were about to consider the implications for their district proposals of your Lordships' decision on Report, and in the circumstances I felt it right to acquaint them with the views expressed by noble Lords on this matter. This I did, and I think we must now await their considered recommendations.
My Lords, I should like to say a word of thanks to all those noble Lords who have been so helpful and co-operative at all stages in this difficult matter. The "Hampshire Lobby" have been particularly active—a Monck and a Montagu, a Duke and a King and a gentleman who was described in Hansard as" the Chief Verger of the New Forest."Was it perhaps significant that no right reverend Prelate came in on behalf of this" unholy
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alliance"? I should like also to say a word of thanks to those who have been representing the viewpoint of the Dorset County Council. I think that the County Council have shown themselves most statesmanlike and helpful in the whole matter; and it gives me special pleasure to be able to thank my noble cousin and friend, Lord Digby, for the part he has played in putting the Dorset viewpoint in this House. I should also like to say a word of thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, who has been very helpful all through on this difficult matter. He has unrivalled experience of local government and I am most grateful to him.
Finally, may I thank the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition who has taken such a very active part. I am not sure that he always understood exactly the import of some of the Amendments we were discussing, but in any difficulty he was always ready to fling in a Manuscript Amendment which at least made sure that we discussed the Amendment that he wanted us to discuss. But I am grateful to the noble Lord; he has played a leading part in bringing everybody together on what I hope are now agreed Amendments.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I only wish that I were the "Deputy Verger" to reply on this matter. The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, has been so grateful to everyone that I do not think I should add any more gratitude. I must admit that I owe a word of thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, because he was the first person to get across not only to me but, I think, also to most noble Lords in the House, what we were talking about. That is no reflection on the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, I may say, but the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, did clarify our minds. I should say that those of us who were concerned on behalf of the position of Lymington and the New Forest were certainly not unmindful of the needs of Dorset. Since I now happen to live just over the boundary of Dorset, having lived for many years in the New Forest, I am only sorry that the advice which we gave at an early stage about how to solve this problem was not taken at once. That is the arrangement which has now been adopted, on the lines of the Amendment moved by the noble Earl, Lord Selkirk.

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Perhaps I should say that we are well aware that the Government have had a difficult job, and since, if we had debated this subject, I was going to attack the Minister's handling of it, I would only say now that I shall not do so; but I did have a sentence to say that, despite all that, he is a nice man. He has been doing a most difficult job. I actually walked the boundaries with the Clerk of Dorset County Council, so I was not entirely under the influence of Hampshire. I think they have moved sensibly. I welcome the fact that the noble Lord is drawing the attention of the Boundary Commission to the views of your Lordships. That is perhaps the most important point that has come out of the statement. I believe it is essential to the balance of Dorset that Christchurch, with the population they will now have—although a little on the low side, still around 40,000—and which is likely to grow rapidly, should be an independent district. I know that the noble Earl, Lord Malmesbury, has drawn attention to the high rateable value there. But I do not think we want to delay this discussion any more. I just hope that this arrangement now remains undisturbed. We are much obliged to the noble Lord.
LORD DIGBY: My Lords, I should like to welcome the statement made by my noble kinsman Lord Aberdare, and particularly the fact that he is to draw our views to the attention of the boundary Commission. In doing so, I should like to pay tribute to the Borough of Christchurch for their constructive attitude throughout all these problems. Starting with the Report of the Royal Commission, and at various stages of this Bill, the boundary between Dorset and Hampshire has been moved no fewer than five times. At each stage Christchurch has made constructive observations and has consistently held to one basic proposition; namely, that the boundary should be such as to enable the Boundary Commission to recommend a county district separate from Bournemouth. This view has been supported by the Dorset County Council as they feel that the success of the new system will depend on the balance of districts. I have no doubt that the boundary as in the Bill first tabled by the Government was the correct one. But much water has flowed down the Avon since then, and in the circum-
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stances I commend to your Lordships those Amendments, which will place in Dorset the areas West of the Avon, which undoubtedly look to Dorset, and restore to Hampshire the buffer of Christchurch East round the New Forest. I would say no more at this hour other than that I believe that these Amendments are generally acceptable to your Lordships, and I hope that they can now be accepted so that we can all get on with making the Bill work.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, there seems to be so much joy on the part of Hampshire and Dorset that I hesitate to raise a pernickety point. It concerns merely the phraseology of Amendment No. 9, where we say that the boundary shall be
"from the neighbourhood of Barrett's Copse to the River Mude in the neighbourhood of Waterhouse Farm…".
When we are prescribing boundaries, surely we ought to be as precise as possible. If the deeds of my house were to say that my property "extended from in the neighbourhood of the garage on the one side to in the neighbourhood of the greenhouse on the other side", then I should ask my solicitor to exercise a little more precision in delineating the boundaries. I am wondering whether the vagueness of the word "neighbourhood" may lead to trouble in the future. That is all. I am very glad that Dorset and Hampshire have settled their problems.
LORD ABERDARE: I am grateful to noble Lords. If I may briefly reply to the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, the fact of the matter is that this boundary will be defined by Order of the Secretary of State, and we are only giving an approximate description of where it will run.
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Schedule 12 [Meetings and proceedings of local authorities]:
LORD ABERDARE LORD ABERDARE moved Amendment No. 14:
Page 279, line 29, after ("other") insert ("suitable").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 14. It was the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, who drew our attention to the fact that the "suitable room" which was defined for parish

2035
meetings was only "a room" when it came to community meetings in Wales. This was an error, and this Amendment will mean that it will be a "suitable room" in both cases.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 16 [Functions under, and amendment and modification of, enactments relating to town and country planning]:
LORD MOLSON: My Lords, Amendment No. 15 is a purely drafting Amendment which s intended to make the Amendment which the House accepted yesterday, No. 138, fit grammatically into the existing provisions. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 308, line 12, leave out ("and").—[Lord Molson.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MOLSON LORD MOLSON moved Amendment No. 16:
As an Amendment to Amendment No. 138 made on Report.
Line 2, after ("shall") insert ("before making any such determination").
The noble Lord said: This Amendment makes it clear that the consultations to which Amendment No. 138 on yesterday's Marshalled List refers shall take place before any determination is made to designate a conservation area. It is little more than a drafting Amendment, but it clearly gives expression to what I think was in the minds of us all yesterday: that naturally the consultations should take place before any decision is arrived at. I beg to move.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I confirm that both these Amendments are acceptable to the Government.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
4.27 p.m.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass. In moving the Motion I should like to pay tribute to all noble Lords, on both sides of the House and on the Cross-Benches, who have contributed to the many debates that we have had during the long proceedings in Committee and on Report. Many of your Lordships have spoken from long experience of local government, and for that reason the consideration of the Bill
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has been notably constructive and well informed. We had the advantage of starting with two propositions on which there has been no fundamental difference of opinion: first, that the time is right for reorganisation and that it is right to press on without further delay; and. secondly, that the new structure proposed by the Government is generally supported in Parliament, in local government circles and throughout the country.
Within the framework proposed by the Bill your Lordships have made many significant changes and improvements. We have created a new county in the Isle of Wight. We have introduced important provisions relating to borough status and civic dignities which will help to retain the links between the old system and the new. We have modified the provisions relating to the admission of the public to meetings in the direction of more open government. We have made a number of important changes relating to the exercise of functions—and I have in mind the transitional machinery for agency arrangements and the exercise of functions in connection with refuse disposal and conservation. We have fixed a new and higher financial limit to the general power which enables local authorities to spend money for the benefit of their area and its inhabitants. We have completed a massive exercise in Statute Law revision by including provisions about the borrowing powers of local authorities, and thus consolidating the remaining vestiges of the Local Government Act 1933. In all, we have made some 650 Amendments to the Bill, and I think we can say with due modesty that we return an improved Bill to the other place.
The passing of this Bill is, however, only the first step. A vast amount of work still needs to be done to complete the preparations before the new authorities can be elected next year and can assume their full duties in April, 1974. This work is already placing a great strain on members and officers of existing authorities, and this is bound to continue until the new system is in full operation.
I should like to pay renewed tribute to the enormous amount of co-operation and help which the Government have received from the local authority associations, as well as from local authorities

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and individual members and officers, often from authorities or individuals who themselves have little to gain by the changes now proposed. I am sure we shall be able to continue to count on their co-operation and constructive work in the future.
In order to assist the new authorities in establishing their new organisations, the Government and the local authority associations, as your Lordships know, initiated a management structures study. This report, containing invaluable advice and practical guidance, was published in August. It will be fully studied between now and the time when the new authorities are elected next spring and summer.
I hope your Lordships will recognise that we have demonstrated the importance we attach to the safeguarding of staff interests during the transitional period by bringing the Staff Commissions for England and Wales into formal existence many months ago, soon after the Bill was introduced into Parliament. These bodies are already hard at work in their consultations and in the formulation of the advice they will give. We are very conscious of the need to treat the staff right, and I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, and I differed, I think, on only one point of principle in the course of the discussions we had on these important points during the passage of the Bill.
My Lords, I believe that in this Bill we are laying the foundations for a stronger system of local government. Through the local authorities to be established on reorganisation, the services to be provided by local government will be able to expand into new fields in the future, just as local services have expanded in the past; and stronger authorities with wider powers must mean stronger units of democratic government. This is the ultimate objective of our work on this Bill.
I should like once again to offer to the noble Lord, Lord Champion, my personal thanks for the kindness and co-operation he and his Front Bench colleagues have shown to us during the course of the Bill. I should also like to say how grateful we have been throughout the Bill to have the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Redcliffe-Maud, whose knowledge of this matter since his chairmanship of the
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Royal Commission has been so deep and so valuable to us. Finally, I should like just to say a word of thanks again to the staff of this House on whom we have laid many burdens in the course of some late night Sittings while the Bill was passing through all its stages.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Aberdare.)
4.34 p.m.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I am grateful for what the noble Lord has said about the Opposition Front Bench and various other Members of this House. It is not merely as a matter of reciprocating those kind thoughts that I feel I must myself pay a tribute to the Ministerial team headed by the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for the way in which they have conducted the proceedings. I have experienced nothing but co-operation from them in what has been a very considerable and trying task for all concerned. Our consideration of the Bill was made very much easier by the explanatory material made available to us by the Government and, as I said at the end of the Committee stage, I hope it sets a precedent for Bills of any magnitude. It certainly has been extremely helpful to be able to pick up this material, which normally is available only to Ministers of the Crown. But for myself, my Lords, I hope not to have the duty of "looking after", as it is called, so complicated and difficult a measure for a very long time to come.
We have now reached the stage of considering the Motion, "That the Bill do now pass", after two days on Second Reading, eight days in Committee, three days on Report and the Third Reading to-day—and I should not like to tell the House how many other days I spent in between in trying to understand the Bill. The noble Lord said that in those 14 days we have made 650 Amendments, which are now being sent to the other place. The 650 Amendments made take no account of the totality of Amendments which in fact we considered. Unfortunately, some of them, which were really first-class Amendments, were rejected by the Government—but I must not say too much about that at this stage. We managed to do this in the time, and the fact that we did so is due to Ministers and to the House in general. It is also

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due very largely to the very great restraint that I have imposed on my own verbosity and to my restraining influence on my Front Bench colleagues—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
LORD CHAMPION:—whose powers of exposition are so much greater than mine. The House will notice that I differentiate between using the word "verbosity" for myself and the term"expository powers" in the case of my colleagues. I may—who knows?—just possibly find myself working with them again on another major Bill. I hope, my Lords, it will not be thought amiss if I pay tribute, which I do most sincerely, to my noble colleagues, Lady Serota and Lady White, and Lord Garnsworthy, for their efforts and for their kindly co-operation with me throughout the whole of the period. Upon them I have put much of the work necessitated by a searching examination of a major Bill, and I am grateful to them.
My Lords, the House, freed from too much Party restraint, exerted its will; and that this should happen occasionally is good for the health of the House itself and not too catastrophic for the Government of the day. Altogether, I think we have brought nothing but credit on this House as an essential part of the Parliamentary institution. The job we have done in fact is precisely that.
Our gratitude to the staff, expressed again by the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, will I am sure be suitably expressed in a function to be held this evening, for the inspiration for which we have to thank the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, very sincerely.
Just a word about the Bill which, though not perhaps as drastic a reforming measure as some would have wished, will bring about the reorganisation of local government which I trust will result in a system of local government that will continue to serve the country well for many years to come. I wish well to all those facing the immediate tasks of the transitional stage, and subsequently in their operation of this measure. Knowing so many of them, meeting them in various places, I do riot doubt their capacity to surmount all the difficulties and bring credit upon themselves and upon the
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country generally. My Lords, I am happy to see this Bill passed.
4.38 p.m.
LORD REDCLIFFE-MAUD: My Lords, as a humble new boy and Cross-Bencher, I should like to add my tribute to what has been so ably said by the noble Lord, Lord Champion, on behalf of the Opposition. I should like first to pay my tribute to the Government team—lucid always, indefatigable and courteous. I would also pay my tribute to the staff of the Department of the Environment and of the other Departments concerned. Those of us who have served in Whitehall can guess how much work they have necessarily put in to enable Ministers to perform their tasks for us all.
May I also pay my tribute to those who now form Her Majesty's Opposition for what they did for local government reform when they formed the Government of the country. Their courage in February 1970 in publishing the White Paper and committing themselves to very drastic reforms and to a programme of rapid legislation thereon, I think helped to maintain the momentum which had been generated during the previous half-dozen years. Without that, I doubt very much whether we would now, even under the present Government, be in a position to be sending a Bill of this magnitude to the other place.
The Government have always been modest in referring—not perhaps consistently, but very often—to this Bill as a reorganisation of local government. At some moments they have used the word "reform"—for instance, in their own White Paper in February, 1971. I am prepared to prophesy that the students and historians of the future will most emphatically refer to this Bill as local government reform. I believe quite seriously that you must go back to the great Statute of Queen Elizabeth I in 1601 to find any measure as comprehensive and as important—that was the first Poor Law Act. You can perhaps think of the 1835 Municipal Corporations Act as being worth mentioning, and of course the 1888 Act which created the county councils and county boroughs. But I believe that the 1972 Act (if such it becomes) will rank as the first major systematic and comprehensive measure

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which Parliament has placed on the Statute Book in the field of local democracy in this country.
I most warmly congratulate the Government on having reached the stage that they have reached to-day. It is only a framework, and we all know that. It removes many obstacles to good local government and opens the door to progress. The House has been very patient in what must have seemed my too frequent interventions, and what has sometimes been described as pontification on my part. I will curtail what I might be tempted to say about the ways in which I see this framework as opening the way to great improvements, both in democratic government in this country and in the making of our social services and our whole method of behaving more humane as well as more efficient. If there is one point to pick out it is that at last we shall be rid of this patchwork which has divided us into counties and county boroughs and has been the seedbed of so much inevitable hostility between two great parts of our local government system.
The opportunity remains to be taken but, please God! it will be taken, and the new counties will really be new counties and will be the instruments whereby the community of interdependent neighbours in town and country may of course serve their own interests, but also serve each other's interests, and in this way make progress over the years to come in the control and enrichment of our environment, in coming to terms with the motor car, the lorry, the public transport system, and in our educational and social services. Please God! too, there will be that collaboration, because without it we shall not have the improved social services that we all want between those new counties and the new districts.
These new authorities, because they are new, must start determined to do better than those out of which they have sprung. But the future value of local government to the country depends on the humanity and efficiency of the people who will work in it—both the councillors and their staff. Most of all the mutual awareness and understanding between the local governor
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and the citizen must be developed and maintained in years to come, with the great help that the new structure will give—a structure such as we have not had in the history of local government before.
On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

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