Sitting of 17 October 1972

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
DEATH OF A MEMBER
Mr. Speaker: I regret to have to inform the House of the death of Charles Curran, Esquire, Member for Uxbridge, and I desire on behalf of the House to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the hon. Member.
NEW WRIT ISSUED DURING THE ADJOURNMENT
Mr. Speaker Mr. Speaker acquainted the House that he had issued, during the Adjournment, a Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out a new Writ for the Election of a Member to serve in this present Parliament for Rochdale in the room of John McCann, Esquire, C.B.E., deceased.
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  PORT TALBOT CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
  Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified.
  Read the Third time and passed, with Amendments.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Food Prices
    Mr. Ashleyasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the movement of food prices in the last three months; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. James Prior): Between 16th May, 1972, and 22nd August, 1972, the latest date for which information is available, the food index rose by 3·6 per cent. But it should be noted that in August the prices of fresh fruit and some other imported foodstuffs reached abnormally high levels as a result of the dock strike.
    Mr. Ashley: Although food trade representatives have paid lip service to the Government's proposals for a 5 per cent. limit on food price increases, is the Minister aware that they have also ominously said that it may not be possible to achieve this limit? In view of that ominous statement, does not the Minister feel that there is urgent need for strong Government action on food prices?
    Mr. Prior: This was one of the matters discussed yesterday at Chequers. The CBI tabled proposals for voluntary arrangements to restrain retail price increases backed by a monitoring body on which the Government, the TUC and the CBI would all be represented. These proposals are to be considered further at the next meeting on 26th October.
    Mr. Peart: Will the Minister now accept that his high-price food policy has failed? He deliberately went out of his way to increase food prices according to his declared policy, and Britain's entry into the EEC will inevitably mean a further rise. Will he now stop blaming the dockers and others since he himself deliberately increased prices?
    Mr. Prior: No, and the right hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) knows that what he has said is totally untrue. If he had been a good Minister of Agriculture he would have increased agricultural production, which would have enabled agriculture to have made a far greater contribution in the present world shortage of essential food supplies than is the case now.
    Mr. Thomas Coxasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the increase in food prices since March, 1972.
    Mr. Prior: Between 21st March, 1972, and 22nd August, 1972, the latest date for which information is available, the food index rose by 3·8 per cent.
    Mr. Cox: Can the Minister be in any doubt about the very deep anger of pensioners when they read that reply? Is he aware that it will confirm their worst fears that, because of his inability to control prices, the pension increase announced in March has now been totally eroded? Will he as a matter of urgency seek a meeting with the Secretary of State
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    for Social Services and call for an immediate increase in the State retirement pension to ensure that retired people have enough money this winter to buy the kind of food that is so essential for their wellbeing?
    Mr. Prior: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will join with the Government in persuading the country to adopt the Chequers measures, which will do more to help the old-age pensioners than anything else. Even apart from that, 11 million people receiving retirement pensions and other related benefits have received an increase in real purchasing power of the order of 5 per cent. as a result of the latest increase in pensions. This is a clear indication of our determination to look after those who suffer most in a time of inflation.
    Mr. John Wells: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. What happened to Question No. 10? Questions Nos. 9 and 11 were dealt with rapidly.
    Mr. Speaker: Question No. 10 was answered with No. 7.
    Dame Irene Ward: While I fully support the answer which my right hon. Friend has given, may I ask whether he has grasped the import of the Question which I have tabled to the Secretary of State for Social Services—which I tried to table to the Prime Minister—asking him to try to do something about heating, which is very important for those living on small fixed incomes? Is my right hon. Friend aware that I should very much welcome his support because he is such a delightful Minister?
    Mr. Prior: I am always grateful for what my hon. Friend says, but I am not sure whether the last part of her question is entirely relevant to what she wants me to do. No one under-estimates or wants to play down the serious problems which old-age pensioners in particular suffer at a time of inflation. This is a feeling which the whole House shares and we must do all that we can.
    Mr. Hooson: Has not the Minister consistently under-estimated the rise in food prices, and does not this have a great bearing on the Chequers package? Whether one is for or against the Common Market, is it not correct to say that in January the food index is bound to

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    increase a great deal since, for example, the current price of lamb in the Common Market is nearly double the price in this country? Will not that have a devastating effect?
    Mr. Prior: Increases which will come about as a result of joining the Community occur at the beginning of the farm year for the products in question—in April for dairy products and August for cereals. Lamb is a commodity which is outside the common agricultural policy at present, there being no regulation for it. Therefore, we are free to adjust our own lamb prices at this stage, and the lamb levy will not be introduced until 1st January, 1974.
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the percentage increase in food prices since June, 1970.
    Mr. Prior: Between 16th June, 1970, and 22nd August, 1972, the latest date for which information is available, the food index rose by 21·7 per cent.
    Mr. Skinner: And it has gone up a little bit more since then. Is the Minister aware that in that same period the food combines have increased their profits by more than 30 per cent.? Is there a connection between the two? Will the Minister now accept the Prime Minister's pronouncement that all his party should say "Yes" to everything and agree that there should be a complete embargo on all future increases in prices and profits in this sector?
    Mr. Prior: I think that some of these matters are being discussed in the tripartite negotiations now taking place, and it would be better if I left it there.
    Mr. Proudfoot: Does my right hon. Friend accept that the idea of a price freeze is totally wrong and that retailers throughout the country have been consistently reducing their margins over the past 25 years because of new methods? If Opposition Members bother to look at the margins earned in food, they will find that they are no greater than they were 10 years ago, five years ago or one month ago. There is no difference. I hope my right hon. Friend will point out that the freeze should be applied not to the retailers but to the manufacturers.
    Mr. Prior: I think that my hon. Friend is right, but the increase in the prices of manufactured products has been just over 4 per cent. in the past year, showing that manufacturers have kept very strictly to the CBI initiative. Retailers have undertaken not to increase their gross profit margins over the next 12 months and, what is more, to pass on any improvements brought about as a result of the further initiative which is now being taken.
    Mr. Buchan: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the people are sick and tired of his failure to face up to his own responsibilities in this matter? Is he aware that after the staggering figure he has given us today he will go down in history as Mr. Twenty Per Cent., the first man in history to make a plate of mince cost more than roast chicken? That is the kind of problem he must face up to, and the Chequers talks will not answer it. There is very little wage content in the food price increases, which have come about because of his conscious desire and conscious policy.
    Mr. Prior: What the country is saying quite plainly is that it is absolutely sick and tired of Labour Members backing every wage claim and every resort to wage increases yet at the same time crying crocodile tears over every price increase.
    Mrs. Sally Oppenheim: Can my right hon. Friend say what proportion of the figure he has given represents convenience foods, in which there is a considerable element of rising labour costs?
    Mr. Prior: I cannot give that figure offhand, but my hon. Friend will know that about half the increase in prices is clue to world price movements and between 30 per cent. and 40 per cent. of the other half is due to wage increases.
    Mr. Jay: Is not the huge rise in prices exactly what we should expect from a Government which have deliberately put import levies on food in order to raise the prices?
    Mr. Prior: If the right hon. Gentleman really knew his stuff, he would know that increases in world prices have been so great that the levies are not operating except in one or two exceptional circumstances.
    Mr. Eadieasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he is now in a position to make a statement on the increases in food prices arising out of the dockers' strike.
    Mr. Prior: Supply problems caused by the dockers' strike temporarily increased the prices of some foodstuffs, notably some types of fresh fruit, but once the dispute ended supplies and prices quickly returned to normal.
    Mr. Eadie: Since the right hon. Gentleman seems to be rather shy in giving the House some information, will he not confess that any price increase that does result from the dock strike could have been avoided if his Government had not by their blundering incompetence provoked that strike? Everyone knows that it should never have taken place.
    Mr. Prior: I do not think that any but the most biased observer, which the hon. Gentleman obviously is, would agree with that statement.

    European Economic Community
    Dr. Gilbertasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make a statement about discussions with the European Economic Community on the question of indicating to the public the specific gravities of different types of beer.
    The Minister of State for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Anthony Stodart): There have been no such discussions, nor are any likely to take place in the near future.
    Dr. Gilbert: Is not the Minister following the attempt of the Commission to impose the requirement of the publication of gravity bands on brewers in the Community? Will he give an assurance that when he is at last involved in such discusssions he will abandon his traditional support for the British brewers, who try to keep secret from the people what is in their disgusting beer these days? Will he attempt to get more information out of the brewers about what their beers contain?
    Mr. Stodart: I think that the hon. Member is thinking of a draft directive which proposed four discontinuous bands of primitive density which are numbered
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    by category and which would require category numbers and not specific gravity to be stated on the labels.
    Mr. Hicksasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what progress has been made in his talks with interested parties on the subject of compensation for those growers who suffer adversely as a direct consequence of United Kingdom membership of the European Economic Community; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Anthony Stodart: The outcome of the talks is under consideration. I assure my hon. Friend that I will make an announcement as soon as I can.
    Mr. Hicks: I am sure the industry will welcome my hon. Friend's statement. May I impress upon him that the uncertainty causes anxiety and therefore press him to make the announcement as soon as he can, to alleviate the natural fears of growers in certain rural parts of the country?
    Mr. Stodart: I certainly give my hon. Friend an absolute assurance on that. Our only anxiety is that we want to be quite certain that the help is fair and reasonable.
    Sir D. Walker-Smith: Does my hon. Friend recall that I have been pressing Ministers on this matter for a good many months? Will he assure the House that we shall soon be in a position to tell our horticultural constituents that the compensation will be real, practical and satisfactory?
    Mr. Stodart: I am fully aware of the question which my right hon. and learned Friend asked last March. I repeat to him that we shall make the announcement as soon as we can and that our desire is that the help shall be fair and reasonable.
    Mr. William Hamilton: Can the Minister tell us to which growers the Question refers?
    Mr. Stodart: My right hon. Friend the Minister has made it quite clear that the assurance that there will be compensation covers any sector of the horticultural industry.
    Mr. Peart: The Question referred simply to "growers".
    Mr. Stodart: I am assuming that the right hon. Gentleman knows well enough that "growers" in this context are horticultural producers.
    Mr. Peart: My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) is right to seek to clarify the matter. After all, "growers" can cover more than horticultural producers. [Interruption.] It is not just apple-growers; it might be potato-growers.
    Mr. Stodart: With the greatest respect to the right hon. Gentleman, I do not think that the potato-grower, other than a horticultural one, is referred to as a grower. He is referred to as a farmer. I should have thought the right hon. Gentleman would know that.
    Mr. John Wells: Can my hon. Friend say whether the compensation will come from the British Treasury or the common agricultural funds of the Community? Can he also say whether the compensation, when it is available, will be kept open and available for many months and many years and will not have an early terminal date put upon it?
    Mr. Stodart: The compensation will come from the British Treasury. I cannot give an undertaking that it will be kept open for any indefinite period. I think that there will have to be a reasonable closure date by which claims will have to be received.
    Sir Robin Turtonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he is aware of the concern of pig producers that in the transitional period their sales will be adversely affected by the system of compensatory payments that are to be enjoyed by pig producers in the Six; and if he will make a statement on the result of his recent negotiations with the Six.
    Mr. Anthony Stodart: We intend to ensure that the system of compensatory amounts for pigmeat provides fair competitive conditions and avoids distortion of trade over the transition. Discussions on this question are now taking place with the Commission and other countries concerned. An announcement will be made when decisions have been reached.
    Sir Robin Turton: Is my hon. Friend aware that there is grave concern that the
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    Community is trying to base compensation payments on unrealistic conversion factors? In addition there is a danger that within their scope will be included pigmeat not produced in the European Community but imported from Eastern Europe?
    Mr. Stodart: I can assure my right hon. Friend that we are well aware of all these matters. I agree that there is anxiety. These are matters which are under discussion.
    Mr. Deakins: Is the Minister aware also of the serious danger that Danish pig producers in the transitional period, by virtue of the higher cereal prices, will be eligible for compensatory payments, unlike British producers with whom they are directly competing in the British bacon market?
    Mr. Stodart: This is an extremely salient point in the discussions which are going on at this moment.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: Will the Minister assure the House that he is keeping in mind in his negotiations the special position of pig producers in Northern Ireland, as they are going to find themselves on the periphery of the market if we enter the Common Market?
    Mr. Stodart: Yes.

    Icelandic Fishing Limits
    Mr. Wallasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a further statement on the effect of the extension of Icelandic fishing limits on the British fishing industry.
    Mr. McNamaraasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a report to the House on the effect of the implementation of the 50-mile limit by the Icelandic Government on the British trawler fleet and on fish prices.
    Mr. Anthony Stodart: British trawlers have continued to fish within the new fishing limits claimed by Iceland and there has been no identifiable effect on fish supplies or prices.
    Mr. Wall: I thank my hon. Friend for his reply and note the continuation of discussions with the Icelandic Government. Will he agree that any further

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    cutting of trawl wires by Icelandic gunboats will inevitably lead to naval protection for our own vessels on the high seas?
    Mr. Stodart: There has been no wire-cutting incident since 22nd September, and I hope that the Icelandic Government will continue to avoid provocation as they know quite well that such a provocation could jeopardise talks.
    Mr. McNamara: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that catches have fallen and that this has had an effect upon prices? Can he say what estimate he has made of the effect on the price of fish of a fallback in Icelandic landings, particularly during the winter months?
    Mr. Stodart: Catches are certainly down on the same period last year but fishing generally has been less good than the 1971 levels, which were excellent. The prices reflect the shortage of fish generally and it would be remarkably difficult to isolate the question of Iceland in this.
    Mr. James Johnson: Unlike the Minister, I have visited the West Hull fish dock. Is he aware that I am told there that the landings in September were satisfactory both in quantity and quality? Does he agree that the hope of all concerned is that both sides will play it cool, as they have been doing? Can he go beyond this and tell us what has been the result of his talks with the leaders of the industry over the last few weeks?
    Mr. Stodart: We have had the very closest of contact with the industry, including the Trawlers Federation and representatives of the trade unions concerned. They have been entirely behind Government policy. There have been, as the hon. Gentleman will have seen official talks in Iceland recently. A lot of ground was covered in great detail and I hope that a further meeting will take place at an appropriate time.

    Sugar Beet
    Mr. Farrasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how the acreage under sugar beet compares with a year ago; and what are the prospects for future expansion.
    Mr. Prior: The authorised acreage for 1972 was 443,000 acres, the same as in
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    1971. The guaranteed acreage for 1973 will again be 443,000 acres, but I understand that the British Sugar Corporation will be prepared to contract for an additional 25,000 unguaranteed acres. I expect a substantial increase in acreage when the EECs sugar régime is revised for the period after 1974.
    Mr. Farr: While I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him to assure the House that when the Australian supply is ended in 1975 the largest part, if not all, of this demand will be met by home production?
    Mr. Prior: Certainly when the Australian quota is phased out a new agreement will have to be reached within the Community as a whole and at that stage the British Government will be looking for a considerable increase in its acreage. I therefore confirm what my hon. Friend is suggesting.
    Mr. Peart: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that while I agree it is important to think in terms of the development of our own sugar acreage he has an obligation to the Commonwealth? Is he also aware that I hope he will in no way sell them down when he negotiates again the Commonwealth Agreement?
    Mr. Prior: Phrases like "selling down" are extremely inappropriate in this case. Our arrangement to continue to take 1·4 million tons from the underdeveloped countries of the Commonwealth remains exactly as stated. No change whatever has been made.
    Mr. Peart: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster negotiated nothing for the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement during the negotiations and that there is still uncertainty? I merely ask him to take careful note now.
    Mr. Prior: I do not accept that for one moment. The agreement reached at Lancaster House is one by which the Government fully stand. It was accepted by all the under-developed countries of the Commonwealth which subscribe to the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement. The only people who try to cast doubt on this are the right hon. Gentleman and one or two of his hon. Friends.
    Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: Will my right hon. Friend take steps to ensure that increased manufacturing capacity is available at the time when increased acreages become possible in Britain after the Australian quota has come on to the open market?
    Mr. Prior: I hope that the British Sugar Corporation will pay attention to that question because it is vital for it to see that the additional manufacturing capacity is available. I hope that it is doing all in its power to provide this.

    Cereals
    Sir D. Rentonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how the area under cereals at June, 1972, compared with the total a year earlier.
    Mr. Anthony Stodart: The June census results show that the area under cereals at June, 1972, in the United Kingdom was very slightly lower than a year previously—9·40 million acres compared with 9·42 million.
    Sir D. Renton: To what extent do the greatly increased yields at the harvest in my part of the country make up for the slightly lower acreage of cereals which has been grown?
    Mr. Stodart: The output of the 1971 harvest was 14¾ million tons. It is expected that, thanks to an increase in the barley yield of 3 cwt. an acre in particular, the overall yield this year will be about 15¼ million tons, which is ½ million tons higher.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: In the evangelical peroration of his speech to the Conservative Party Conference the Minister of Agriculture claimed credit for fields heavy with corn. Is he aware that his claim to an understanding with Divine Providence must be regarded with scepticism in view of his total failure to provide the multitudes with loaves and fishes at reasonable prices?
    Mr. Stodart: I thought that my right hon. Friend's utterances were highly apostolic and I would certainly venture to think that at each of the last three harvests the Almighty has shown remarkable Conservative colours.
    Mr. Stanbrook: Can my hon. Friend say what has caused the drop in acreage?
    Mr. Stodart: The drop is almost entirely due to the fall in the acreage of oats.
    Mr. Mark Hughes: Will the hon. Gentleman kindly inform the House why his published figures of the general census show an increase to 9·438 million acres as against 9·421 million? Is he aware that I feel sad for his having to apologise for a decrease which his own published figures do not appear to bear out?
    Mr. Stodart: I will if I may investigate this apparent discrepancy and let the hon. Gentleman know about it.

    Cattle
    Mr. Molyneauxasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food how the number of live lamb stocks in the country compares with a year ago.
    Mr. John Wellsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the total stock of breeding ewes now; and how this compares with a year ago.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Peter Mills): The June, 1972, census gave a figure for breeding ewes in the United Kingdom of 10,670,000. This is an increase of 248,000 or almost 2½ per cent. over the previous year. The number of sheep and lambs under one year old was 12,546,000 and the increase over June. 1971, was 493,000 or 4 per cent.
    Mr. Molyneaux: Is my hon. Friend aware that those figures will be warmly welcomed, indicating as they do a reversal of the downward trend which was evident during the years 1967 to 71? Will he do all in his power to continue policies which have restored confidence throughout agriculture generally?
    Mr. Mills: Yes. There is no doubt that Government action has stimulated production and has been effective as opposed to the stagnation in the 1960s. This is good for the farmer and even more it is good for the consumer.
    Miss Quennellasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the total cattle breeding herd number at the latest available date.
    Mr. Woodnuttasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the total number of heifers carrying their first calf at the latest available date.
    Mr. Boscawenasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the increase in the number of beef heifers in calf at the latest available date, compared with a year ago.
    Mr. Anthony Stodart: The results of the June census show that a sound expansion of cattle numbers in the United Kingdom continues.
    The total breeding herd was 4,801,000 head, an increase of 4 per cent. over the previous year. The number of heifers in calf for the first time was 951,000 head, an increase of 14 per cent. Of these heifers, the number intended for beef production was 267,000, an increase of 98.000 head, which is almost 60 per cent.
    Miss Quennell: While I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those interesting figures, may I ask whether he can give the House any indication, first, as to what he attributes the increase of 4 per cent. and secondly, in view of the confusion about the acreage under cereals, whether he is satisfied that there will be adequate food for this increased herd?
    Mr. Stodart: I do not think that even the hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Mark Hughes) would say that the mild discrepancies pointed out would be responsible for any shortage of food. The main reason for the increase is undoubtedly the considerable confidence among farmers that has been engendered by my right hon. Friend after the years of misgiving and uncertainty that they suffered under a Labour Government.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: The Minister of State must make his political point, but in view of the three-year beef cycle is not this increase the result of Labour's Price Reviews?
    Mr. Stodart: I would have thought not. [Interruption.] If I can get a word in edgeways, it is very largely due to the rise in the guaranteed price in 1971 and again in 1972.
    Mr. Boscawen: While welcoming the satisfactory figures for the increase in the beef herds, may I ask my hon. Friend to say whether we will be able to sustain
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    a growth rate of this kind for lone, especially in view of the steeply rising food costs? Will we be able to sustain it satisfactorily to increase the general rate of production to 5 per cent. per annum?
    Mr. Stodart: I would have thought that with the momentum now under way, an increase of 4 per cent. in the herd is perfectly practicable.
    Mr. Deakins: Have these increased cattle numbers brought about any reduction in the price of meat to the housewife?
    Mr. Stodart: The prices would be a good deal higher if the increases had not taken place. I have always believed that the best way to supply this market is from home sources rather than to rely on imports in times of a world shortage.

    Pollution (North Sea)
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on penalties to be imposed on those found guilty of disposing of toxic substances into the North Sea
    Mr. Anthony Stodart: As I informed the hon. Member on 16th May, 1972, my right hon. Friend intends that the penalties for dumping offences at sea will be in line with those for illegal disposal on land. Legislation will be introduced as soon as parliamentary time permits — [Vol. 837, c. 219.]
    Mr. Dalyell: Why have the Government been stalling since February on this matter?
    Mr. Stodart: There is no question of stalling. The hon. Gentleman asked me a Question in May and I answered him then. He has merely put it down again.
    Mr. Eadie: Is the Minister telling the House that consideration will be given to the dumping of any effluent coming from nuclear power stations in the North Sea? Can he inform the House about that as well?
    Mr. Stodart: I will certainly look into that. It is not, I think, a matter for my Department but I will certainly look into it and let the hon. Gentleman know.
    Miss Quennell: Although the Question and supplementary question have referred

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    to the North Sea, can my hon. Friend confirm that the legislation he has mentioned will affect all our coastal waters?
    Mr. Stodart: I think that it will affect all dumping offences at sea around these islands.
    Mr. Pearl: Are oil companies responsible in this connection? Has the Minister any evidence of this?
    Mr. Stodart: I should like notice of that question. I think that it would certainly cover deliberate dumping but I doubt whether it would cover accidental dumping.

    Beef
    Mr. Charles Morrisonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will state the amount by which beef production has increased in the past year, and state the scope for further increases.
    Mr. Anthony Stodart: Home-fed beef production at 922,000 tons in the year ending September, 1972, was about 30,000 tons down on the previous one, due to unusually heavy marketing at the end of 1970 and more stock being kept now for breeding. But the breeding herd is now expanding rapidly. We can expect well over 50,000 tons more from it in the coming year.
    Mr. Morrison: The forecast which my hon. Friend has given is most encouraging, but does he think that the increased production will result in less reliance on imports or does he think that it will merely meet increasing home demand?
    Mr. Stodart: I think we shall be able to rely less on imports, which are less easy to get, in that Irish stores are already going to Continental markets, and I think that we shall be able more and more to satisfy the consumption demands of people in this country.
    Mr. Buchan: Will the hon. Gentleman give us a guarantee that this increased amount in production will show itself in a drop in prices?
    Mr. Stodart: I believe that it will certainly have a very helpful effect. The hon. Gentleman has never given a guarantee in his life, and I do not think he is entitled to ask me for one.

    Sale of Food (Standards)
    Mrs. Sally Oppenheimasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what steps he intends to take following the Report of the Public Health Inspectors Association, which revealed that 11,500 items of bad food, comprising stale, unfit and unclean food, were discovered by the inspectors in shops last year, especially in view of the fact that this figure shows a considerable increase on previous years.
    Mr. Peter Mills: The Food and Drugs Act, 1955, makes it an offence to sell food in unsatisfactory condition. The report shows that local authorities are enforcing its provisions with the help of complaints by consumers.
    Mrs. Oppenheim: Does not my hon. Friend agree that it is very disturbing that it would appear that standards are falling rather than rising, and that this highlights the urgent need for the implementation of the Food Standards Committee report, not only on date-stamping but on temperature control, and that obviously such hygiene regulations as now exist are not being effectively enforced?
    Mr. Mills: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing the matter to the attention of the House. It is true that the number of complaints has increased, but the 11,500 refers to foreign matter, and mouldy food accounts for another 4,500. Therefore, it is an important point. The report has alerted members of the public to the need to be on their guard and to the fact that when they bring such matters to the attention of public health inspectors action is taken. Certainly we must not be complacent.
    Mr. Marks: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Medical Officer of the Department of Education has also expressed great concern at the increase in dysentery and food poisoning of children, and will he take a more active interest in the matter?
    Mr. Mills: I understand what the hon. Gentleman says. I can assure him that we take the matter seriously, and we must certainly not he complacent about it.
    Miss Quennell: Does my hon. Friend realise that the report of the Public Health Inspectors Association is most alarming? Will he do everything in his power to accelerate the date-stamping to which my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mrs. Sally Oppenheim) has referred not necessarily so that the consumer, the housewife, can see the date on food but so that the proprietors of the establishments in question can see it for themselves and get rid of the food in time?
    Mr. Mills: I would not go so far as to say that the report is alarming; it is disturbing. The other point I would like to make is that it is only a very small proportion of the total food sold. We are listening to the views of people about date-stamping. When the time comes, of course action will be taken.
    Mr. Robert C. Brown: Would the Minister agree, whether the figure is alarming or disturbing, that if local authorities had the requisite number of public health inspectors they should have, the figure would be a lot more alarming or disturbing?
    Mr. Mills: I should like to pay tribute to the public health inspectors. They are carrying out a first-class job in difficult conditions. What I like about all this is that there is the helpful development that consumers are taking notice of things and bringing them to the inspectors' attention.

    Dust Hazards
    Mr. Meacherasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will introduce regulations requiring the fitting of dust extraction plant in grain stores, dryers, milling sheds and any other agricultural premises where dust presents a hazard.
    Mr. Peter Mills: I believe that the road to greater safeguards here lies more through education than regulation, and this is the approach we are adopting. I can also assure the hon. Member that the problems posed by this and other farm safety hazards are kept under continuous review, in consultation with the medical and other research councils.
    Mr. Meacher: That reply is quite inadequate. Is the Minister aware that
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    mortality statistics in the rural areas show a wholly disproportionate death rate from bronchitis and emphysema and that the only reason is that the Minister is so ignorant of the situation that he refuses to classify those as prescribed diseases? Will the Minister install dust extraction plants instead of using this circular method of reasoning as justification for complacency?
    Mr. Mills: I do not accept the allegations that the hon. Member has made. We well understand the problems and we take them seriously. They are kept under constant review with the Medical Research Council. It is important to get farm workers and farmers through education to realise that they must use masks. This is a very difficult and important subject.
    Mr. Meacherasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will take steps to require the wearing of suitable masks in all cases of specified dust hazards, and that such masks should conform to the appropriate British Standards Institution standard.
    Mr. Speaker: Did not the Minister answer Question No. 28 with No. 25?
    Mr. Peter Mills: I thought so, Mr. Speaker, but the answer is exactly the same.
    Mr. Meacher: And the answer is equally inadequate. Will the Minister carry out what the last Government agreed to, namely, that the provision of proper dust extraction procedures be made a condition of grant aid in the support system?
    Mr. Mills: Certainly we have this very much in mind particularly as regards future buildings and the need for dust extraction plant. Certainly we are looking at this.

    Slaughterhouses
    Mr. Alfred Morrisasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what representations he has received from the Manchester City Council in support of early legislation to apply the same standards of construction and hygienic operation for slaughterhouses providing meat for the home market as are required for slaughterhouses in this country which

    21
    have been approved for the export of meat to the European Economic Community; what reply he is sending; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Charles R. Morrisasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what action he is taking on the Manchester City Council's representations to him in support of higher standards of construction and hygienic operation for slaughterhouses providing meat for the home market; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Peter Mills: I have not seen any recent representations from the Manchester City Council about higher standards for slaughterhouses. However, we are currently reviewing the Slaughterhouses (Hygiene) Regulations, 1958, to see whether they can be further improved.
    Mr. Alfred Morris: With all respect, why should British housewives have to make do with lower standards than those available to consumers abroad? Will the Minister now stop talking and let us have some action in the interests of consumer protection and effective hygiene alike?
    Mr. Mills: I do not accept what the hon. Member is saying. I believe that with the regulations which are in force there is full protection for British housewives, and in general standards are very good.
    Mr. Charles R. Morris: Will the Minister bear in mind that the standards in the EEC are infinitely inferior to those of the United States for the export of meat to the United States? Why should the British housewife have to accept less than the EEC's standards and the standards of the United States?
    Mr. Mills: The answer is that she just does not.

    CBI AND TUC (TALKS)
    Mr. Ashleyasked the Prime Minister how many meetings he has had with the Trades Union Congress and the Confederation of British Industry during the recess.
    Mr. Sheldonasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his latest meeting with the Confederation
    22
    of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress.
    Mr. Joel Barnettasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his latest talks with the Conferation of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Edward Heath): A further all-day meeting in the series of tripartite discussions between the Government, the TUC and the CBI took place yesterday at Chequers: this was the third such meeting since the House rose for the Summer Recess. The three parties reaffirmed their main objectives for economic management in the present situation, namely faster growth in national output and real incomes; an improvement in the relative position of the low paid; and moderation in the rate of cost and price inflation. A detailed discussion took place on proposals to achieve these objectives tabled by the Government at the previous meeting, and on other proposals put forward subsequently by the TUC and CBI.
    It was agreed that the staffs of the three parties should further examine the various points raised at yesterday's meeting, and that the three parties should meet again on 26th October to agree on proposals which would meet their common objectives and provide a satisfactory basis for economic management over the coming 12 months.
    Mr. Ashley: No one will quibble with those admirable objectives, but is the Prime Minister aware that, however willing trade union leaders may be to negotiate and accept his package, it will explode in their hands unless prices, dividends and capital gains are included?
    The Prime Minister: That, with great respect to the hon. Member, is a matter for the trade union leaders representing the General Council to decide, and this, of course, is what the discussions have been about, hut, in the same way as prices are important, so increased wages as an element of costs are important. Both these things were recognised by all three parties to the talks and both were fully discussed.
    Mr. Sheldon: And yet in an interview with The Times early this month the Prime Minister said that if a voluntary

    23
    prices and incomes policy was not done it would have to be done by statute. Since the Prime Minister has repeatedly denied this, can he now say where he stands on this matter?
    The Prime Minister: I have always said that the Government want a voluntary policy. This has been made absolutely clear to the other two parties to the talks and all three parties to the talks have agreed about it.
    Dame Irene Ward: Could I ask my right hon. Friend, who during all these negotiations has very rightly drawn attention to those living on small fixed incomes and the lower paid, to consider what I think is necessary, and that is to have some quick investigation into the need for continuous attention for those living on small fixed incomes? I find it rather difficult to know how in these negotiations this point can be made. Would my right hon. Friend please add this to the very important negotiations he is carrying out, and which we hope will have a successful result? Heating for the old is very necessary.
    The Prime Minister: All those who are on small fixed incomes, all those who are living on retirement pensions, all those who are living on social security benefits, are those who will benefit most from dealing with inflation. The policy agreed by the three parties to the talks was that the lower paid in all forms should be those who should benefit most, and this was the object of the proposals put forward at the request of the other two parties to the discussions.
    Mr. Barnett: Will the right hon Gentleman now please answer the question asked previously? In view of all he has said in the past, has he ruled out a statutory prices and incomes policy?
    The Prime Minister: I have always said that what the Government require is to have a voluntary policy, and as this is agreed by both the TUC and the CBI the Government's view is reinforced.
    Mr. Alfred Morris: Will the Prime Minister at least make it clear that there can be no question of chaining the police officers to the proposed £2 limit for pay increases? Is he aware that, while they
    24
    have had an increase of only 6½ per cent. in the last year, there has been a general increase in wage rates of some 29 per cent? What action is the right hon. Gentleman taking to make sure that representatives of the Police Federation are given some voice in these discussions?
    The Prime Minister: By general agreement between the three parties to the talks, the statement in the communiqu£ after the meeting on 26th September specifically asked that all those dealing with wages or prices should not take any action while these talks were going on which would invalidate them. That was a request made by agreement between all three parties.
    Mr. Harold Wilson: Does the Prime Minister's last answer mean that the suggestion made when he first announced the Chequers package on 26th September, that the public sector would start being affected by the Government as employer on the lines of the £2 limit, no longer applies? Secondly, recalling the exchanges which we had earlier in the summer, will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the rents of council houses and, separately, the rents of private houses will not be allowed under his package to rise by more than 4 per cent. in the year following 26th September?
    The Prime Minister: On the first point, the request was not made to the public sector alone; it was made to everybody, whether in the public sector or the private sector, dealing with prices or with wages. It covered both fields, and the whole sector. On the second question, the matter of rents has been raised by the TUC—not the current increase but in 1973—and that is therefore a matter under discussion.
    Sir Harmar Nicholls: Although certain hon. Members opposite seem to be disturbed that there might be a reasonable agreement on this issue, will my right hon. Friend keep in mind that the nation as a whole recognises that it is vital that there should be an agreement? I hope he will keep to the point which he has made already and will work sensibly from the base he has laid, despite the disturbance and apparent resentment of hon. Members opposite.
    The Prime Minister: I think that all three parties to the talks feel that there

    25
    has been very wide public support for the talks, for the approach and for the proposal put forward. I can assure my hon. Friend that we will continue with this. Indeed, I think that the nine hours spent in discussion yesterday are sufficient proof of that.
    Mr. Pavitt: In spite of the Prime Minister's request, may I ask him whether he has noticed that there has been a big rise in wholesale prices in the last two weeks and that a large number of commentators have suggested that this is in order to make sure that the rises take place before there is any restriction in retail prices later? Will the right hon. Gentleman take this into consideration in his discussions, realising that if prices rise before the agreement, and if profits can be retained in dividends a few years after the agreement, wages will be in a very bad position indeed?
    The Prime Minister: I do not think that there is any specific evidence that wholesale prices have been rising in expectation of this agreement. No one in the talks has suggested that. On the other hand, there is a very determined effort by everybody in the talks to ensure that retail prices are kept down.
    On the question of profits, there is also a recognition, which has been very clear from all three parties, that if there is to be continuous growth—not only in the two years which we are discussing but beyond that—there must be a much higher level of investment, and this must come from profitability. Everybody knows that without that we cannot have continuous growth after this immediate period.

    HERR BRANDT (TALKS)
    Sir Gilbert Longdenasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his official talks with Chancellor Brandt.
    Mr. Wyn Robertsasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his official meeting with the German Chancellor at Kiel.
    The Prime Minister: I met Herr Brandt near Munich on 5th September. We discussed questions relating to the summit conference, in particular economic
    26
    matters, as well as other subjects. We found ourselves in agreement on all the main issues we discussed.
    Sir Gilbert Longden: While thanking my right hon. Friend for that answer, may I point out that since I tabled the Question the forthcoming summit conference has been arranged? Will my right hon. Friend impress on his colleagues at the summit that the present state of the European Assembly does nothing to reassure the British people that they are about to join a democratic community? Will he also impress on them that the sooner the Assembly is reconstituted as a Parliament with direct elections and appropriate powers, the better for its credibility?
    The Prime Minister: The question of the institutions of the Community as a whole, but in particular of the European Parliament, will be one of the major subjects for discussion at the summit. I hope that the question of how the changes should be brought about will be decided there. I should not like therefore to make any specific statement at the moment about direct elections, though the matter was dealt with in the communiqué between the Leader of the Opposition, when he was Prime Minister, and the Italian Government, which was reaffirmed during my recent visit to Rome.
    Mr. Roberts: Can my right hon. Friend confirm that Herr Brandt will support any claim that my right hon. Friend may make for generous EEC aid to Wales, just as Herr Brandt is expected to support a claim for generous EEC aid to Scotland, as announced in the Daily Telegraph today?
    The Prime MinisterWithout wishing to enter into internal rivalries in this country let alone in Europe, I should like to frame my answer in the form that I know that the Chancellor of the Federal Republic fully supports a regional industrial policy and a policy of help for the regional areas in Europe.
    Mr. Stonehouse: In his talks with Chancellor Brandt, did the Prime Minister give an undertaking that he would fix a parity for £ the before the new year?
    The Prime Minister: No; I have given no such undertaking to anyone.

    EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
    Dr. Vaughanasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on the preparations for the proposed summit conference of the 10 members of the enlarged Community.
    Mr. St. John-Stevasasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on the proposed summit conference of the 10 members of the enlarged Community.
    Mr. Blakerasked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement about the preparations for the summit conference of European Economic Community and applicant countries.
    The Prime Minister: I shall be going to Paris tomorrow at the invitation of President Pompidou to attend the European summit conference. The House will not expect me to anticipate the results.
    Dr. Vaughan: Will my right hon. Friend be taking with him to the summit conference any proposals for strengthening the economic and monetary union so that we can adopt a more united European posture in external trade negotiations?
    The Prime Minister: I take the view that the movement towards economic union and monetary union must be in step. We shall be putting forward specific proposals about economic union.
    Mr. St. John-Stevas: Can my right hon. Friend say whether, quite apart from the very helpful suggestions made by Herr Brandt, he intends to put forward proposals for new regional policies at the summit so that Britain will get a fairer deal out of the Community budget?
    The Prime Minister: We shall be putting forward proposals for regional policies which will apply to the Community as a whole because we believe that regional policy is an essential element of economic union, and if there is to be monetary union in order to produce a closer Community this must be balanced at the same time by economic union.
    Mr. Kaufman: Will the right hon. Gentleman attempt at the summit to concert with the other eight representatives
    28
    the necessity to co-ordinate international action against the kind of international terrorism which so marred his recent visit to Munich? Will he attempt to persuade the other eight leaders that all air services should be cut off for countries which harbour terrorists of the kind who operated at Munich?
    The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we have already ratified The Hague Convention. We are hoping to ratify the Montreal Convention as soon as the necessary legislation is through the House in the next Session. The matter has been discussed by the Foreign Ministers of the Community in their political consultations. Therefore, at the summit I think there will be agreement that the Foreign Minister should continue with the action they have in hand to deal more effectively with terrorism of the kind the hon. Gentleman has mentioned.
    Mr. Blaker: Is my right hon. Friend bearing in mind that in the statement in 1969 which was signed jointly with the Italian President, the then British Prime Minister supported not only the idea of an elected European Parliament but progress towards monetary integration?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I think my hon. Friend is right and that the right hon. Gentleman committed himself to European integration of all kinds. I think he said "at every level and all fields where progress is possible". We shall endeavour to make progress possible wherever we can.
    Mr. Shore: Leaving aside the wider issues of the summit, on which I hope we shall be able to touch later this afternoon, does not the Prime Minister agree that if he has serious proposals on economic and monetary union and regional policy it would have been helpful to the House if he had made those proposals available to us in some form so that we could discuss them and debate them before he went?
    The Prime Minister: We have a longstanding tradition in the House that when there are meetings of Heads of Government of any kind, whether between the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and the President of the United States or the leader of the Soviet Union, they have the opportunity of discussing these matters

    29
    between themselves before going into detail in the House, though they always report to the House afterwards. That is the procedure which I shall follow.

    ROYAL ASSENT
    Mr. Speaker: I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act, 1967, that the Queen has signified Her Royal Assent to the following Acts:

    1. Companies (Floating Charges and Receivers) (Scotland) Act, 1972.

    2. European Communities Act, 1972.

    3. Horserace Totalisator and Betting Levy Boards Act, 1972.

    NORTHERN IRELAND
    Rev. Ian Paisleyasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the civil disturbances in Northern Ireland last night and the deaths which resulted therefrom.
    The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. William Whitelaw): Last night there were serious disorders in some predominantly Protestant areas of East and West Belfast.
    Between 8.30 and 9.0 p.m. rioting broke out in East Belfast. About the same time the Army controls on three of the bridges across the River Lagan checked an attempt by groups of Protestant youths, some armed with cudgels, to move across into East Belfast. Thereafter trouble in East Belfast escalated, with the hi-jacking of a bus and the building of barricades.
    At 9.50 p.m. it was learned from an anonymous telephone call to Tennant Street Police Station in West Belfast that two RUC Reserve constables had been taken hostage in that area. The Army vehicle that went to rescue them was greeted by stones, bottles and a blast bomb which was thrown towards it. Thereafter there were serious disorders in the Shankill Road area of West Belfast as well as in East Belfast.
    Between 10.15 and 10.30 p.m. two civilians were killed in incidents involving Army vehicles. In the course of the night over 130 rounds were fired at the security
    30
    forces. They fired 72 rounds in return. Eleven soldiers were admitted to hospital, four of them with gunshot wounds. Twenty-two more soldiers were slightly injured. Thirty-two people were arrested.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: Does the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland agree that by far the vast majority of Protestants in Northern Ireland are grateful to the British Army for all that they have done to root out terrorism in Ulster and that the vast majority of Protestants in Northern Ireland would deplore any suggestion of a confrontation between the Protestant community and the forces of the Crown?
    Is the Secretary of State aware of the deep feelings that have been stirred among the Protestant community in Northern Ireland at his announcement of the postponement of the promised referendum?
    Is not the Secretary of State concerned that certain criticisms that have been made of certain members of the Army have been substantiated at subsequent court hearings? Will he give a promise to the House that he will investigate personally the death of Mr. John Clark last night? Is he aware that Mr. Clark is a polio victim, that he was in Hornby Street on the orders of the director of a firm of which he is manager to recover a lorry, that when the riot broke out Mr. Clark was unable to run and he fell because of his incapacity and on rising to his feet and standing up to the wall he was pinned to the wall and his head was crushed to pulp and part of his brain was gathered off the wall after this tragic accident? Will the Secretary of State assure the House that such matters will be given urgent consideration as they contribute to the deplorable acts that happened last night in the city of Belfast?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, in view of some of the expressions that have been made and some of the talk about confrontations with the security forces of the kind that have been made recently, for his remarks that Protestants in general, and I certainly agree with him, would be wholly against any such confrontation.
    I am also grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he said about British troops, who are operating under extremely difficult circumstances. I am equally

    31
    grateful to the hon. Gentleman for saying that in view of some of the extreme statements that have also been made on that subject.
    I am very well aware of the feelings about a plebiscite or a referendum on the border issue. I do not think that anyone in the House, whatever may be the arguments about particular dates for a local election or a plebiscite on the border issue, will feel that these justify violence and shooting at British troops. I personally would have preferred to have had this plebiscite or referendum before the local elections. I had to face a very difficult dilemma. I have made perfectly clear what that was. I hope that will be realised.
    Equally, I must also say to the House that all polls and elections are bound to depend on the security situation, and those who want them—whatever sort they want—must appreciate that, too.
    Mr. Merlyn Rees: Is the Secretary of State aware that the riots last evening can only be regarded as a direct challenge to the Government of the United Kingdom? We on this side of the House make it quite clear that we support the security forces in their difficult task against law breakers from whichever community they come. We ask the world to note the casualties of the security forces last evening and the number of shots that were fired at them.
    If the UDA and others are really working for UDI—a break with the United Kingdom—is not this a serious new complexion of the Northern Ireland problem? Has the Secretary of State any evidence of the UDA and the IRA talking together about UDI? Does not the Secretary of State agree that if the UDA can stop local elections in its area the IRA could stop a referendum in its?
    Finally, to make clear the future of Northern Ireland, will the Secretary of State in advance of the Green Paper give a general but clear statement of the sort of timetable envisaged by the Government leading to a new constitution and elections when we will get the views of all the people of Northern Ireland on what we hope at the moment are the views of a small number of people who act in the way that they do?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said in
    32
    support of action taken by the security forces, both the Army and the police, against law breakers from wherever they come. I know that this is widely supported throughout the whole community of Northern Ireland in all sections, and that must be the case.
    I cannot emphasise too often how determined we are that the security forces shall be impartial, not only between men of violence, on the one hand, and law abiding citizens, on the other hand, because they must be wholly against men of violence from wherever they come, but equally wholly impartial as between law abiding citizens from wherever they come in the community. That is the position of the security forces in a very difficult task. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said in this respect.
    I have no evidence of any talks between the UDA and the IRA. I do not suppose that they would tell me if they were doing that, but I have no evidence of it. Equally, those who seek to run on a collision course—if there are those who seek to run on a collision course—with the United Kingdom Parliament and Government must realise fully the implications of what they are doing, but I believe that they are very few in number indeed and will be largely dissociated with.
    As for future policies, these will certainly be fully set out. At this stage I can only say firmly that the legislation about the referendum or plebiscite to which the hon. Gentleman referred will be introduced as soon as possible in the new Session of Parliament and the referendum will be held as soon as possible thereafter. One always must remember, as the hon. Gentleman himself has said, that polls of all kinds are bound to be considered in the context of the security situation at the time.
    Mr. McMaster: While in no way condoning the violence in my constituency last night, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he realises the great frustrations felt by the majority of law-abiding citizens in Northern Ireland who have been subjected to a most vicious and sustained campaign of violence mounted by the Official and the Provisional IRA, whose bombs and bullets have killed many hundreds of civilians, police and soldiers over the last four years and have

    33
    caused millions of pounds worth of damage to industry? Will my right hon. Friend lead an all-out campaign—propaganda and military—against those republican organisations which are the root cause of the hideous and escalating campaign of violence we are experiencing in Ulster?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I certainly understand what my hon. Friend says about frustrations over the last four years. What we are now entitled to say is that a very sustained campaign indeed is being conducted against the Provisional IRA. The figures I have constantly given are evidence of that.
    My hon. Friend talks about escalating violence at the present time. I must point out that but for the Protestant actions we had last night, and have had recently, the level of violence would have been very much lower than for some time.
    Mr. Douglas: I speak as one who has just returned from Northern Ireland, where I visited the security forces. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the general body of the people there regard the security forces as their salvation, and that if the security forces were removed—and if there were any thought of their being removed—this would mean a situation of civil war in Northern Ireland? Therefore, the situation is very serious indeed. I think that some of us on this side of the House would appreciate it if the right hon. Gentleman would reassess his priorities, bearing in mind the security situation, and perhaps move with a bit more acceleration towards holding a referendum to get the constitutional issue clear and out of the way in order that the normal political process can take place.
    Mr. Whitelaw: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said about the importance of the security forces in the present situation. I hope that all those, whoever they are, who consider firing a shot at them or stoning them will realise what he has said and how important is the task they are performing on behalf of this House. The hon. Gentleman suggested speeding the referendum. No one is keener than I to do that. I am in the hands of the House on that matter. I want to see it done as soon as possible.
    Mr. Hugh Fraser: I am sure that the whole House is appalled by what is happening and by the losses suffered by the security forces, among others. Could my right hon. Friend comment on a fact which is apparent to us from the television screens, even though the impression may be wrong, that our troops do not seem to be wearing steel helmets in sufficient quantities? It is important that men should wear steel helmets in active conditions. I know that soldiers do not like wearing them, but it is important that they should, and the police should have them as well.
    Mr. Whitelaw: I will discuss the matter with the GOC and the Chief Constable. I note what my right hon. Friend has said.
    Mr. Stallard: Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that we are all very concerned about the rapid deterioration in the situation, particularly over the past few weeks? I, too, recently returned from Northern Ireland. Will he accept also that perhaps we all here should be concerned at the lack of confidence in both communities in the present administration? This is something which should worry us considerably.
    Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I consider his biggest failure to date was his failure to bring to the conference table those minority groups which have to be consulted before any real progress on the political side can be made? That failure is due, in my opinion, to his failure to grasp the nettle of internment. He has had three opportunities since Lenadoon to grasp the nettle. Had he done so, these people would have got round the table to discuss the political issues which will have to be discussed. Will he take this opportunity to reassess the situation, as suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for East Stirlingshire (Mr. Douglas)? Will he consider, first, the question of internment, and, secondly, the deployment of troops in those stress areas, perhaps looking at the possibility of withdrawing troops from these areas in order to improve relations between the two communities and between him and the communities?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I note what the hon Gentleman has said. He has raised wide

    35
    issues about internment and the question of timing. One can only say that there are many arguments both ways about this.
    On the complicated question of Northern Ireland, not just over the last 10 or 20 years but over the last 100 years, it would be a brave man who did not admit that he had made some mistakes about timing at some time. The hon. Gentleman referred to confidence in the various communities. I believe that this House and, I hope, the whole of Northern Ireland and everyone else, will face one simple fact. Confidence is indeed lacking in Northern Ireland. It may also be said, looking back over history, that those who have sought to provide administrations which are absolutely fair to all communities on a totally impartial basis have always suffered from some degree of lack of confidence because of the pressures put upon them from both sides.

    NORTHERN IRELAND
    Mr. McMaster: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
    "The serious rioting and civil disorder in Belfast last night, which resulted in the death of two civilians, and the deteriorating security situation throughout the Province, which has been aggravated by a new phase of unrest and violence in hitherto peaceful areas."
    I urge you, Mr. Speaker, to grant leave on the ground that this matter is both specific and urgent. There has been in the past weeks a completely new phase in the rioting in Northern Ireland. Last night I experienced a night of the most appalling violence, with shooting all round in my own area of East Belfast. Great frustration is felt by the vast majority of people, both Catholic and Protestant, as they see the toll of death and destruction mounting in spite of what the Government have done both to appease the terrorists by granting them every concession they have asked for and
    36
    in attempting to control violence by increasing the number of soldiers and police. Despite all this, the violence continues to increase and is seen by everyone in Northern Ireland to be leading to a mounting toll of death and destruction.
    I submit that the matter is urgent because more and more reasonable and responsible people in Northern Ireland feel that unless the situation can be debated and ventilated in this House, now that Stormont has been suspended and there is no Parliament in Northern Ireland where these grievances can be ventilated, the only alternative is a situation which could deteriorate rapidly into civil war. Because of this and because of the absence of our democratic institutions in Northern Ireland, I can only pray that you will grant my request. I hope that even now it is not too late to debate the matter sensibly.
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
    "The serious rioting and civil disorder in Belfast last night, which resulted in the death of two civilians, and the deteriorating security stuation throughout the Province, which has been aggravated by a new phase of unrest and violence in hitherto peaceful areas."
    The hon. Gentleman was courteous enough to give me considerable notice of his intention. I have therefore had good opportunity to consider the matter. I have also considered the exchanges which took place at Question Time. I have listened to the weighty arguments which the hon. Gentleman has put forward. My decision is purely procedural. I have to decide whether to give his Motion precedence over other business. I am afraid that I cannot grant his application.

    QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE
    Mr. Lipton: I wish to seek your ruling, Mr. Speaker, on what I submit is a serious breach of privilege and contempt of this House. On page 250 of Volume 3 of the Franks Committee's Report on the Official Secrets Act, the

    37
    Director-General of the Security Service, in oral evidence, stated:
    "I can certainly say that very many Members of Parliament are in contact with very many intelligence officers."
    I regard that statement as a serious reflection on the integrity and honour of all hon. Members. It is an indiscriminate smear by inference which should not be allowed to go unchallenged. I therefore hope that the Select Committee on Privileges may be asked to consider the matter complained of.
    Mr. Speaker: I am obliged to the hon. Member. I will consider his submission and, in accordance with the present practice, rule on it tomorrow.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (PRIVATE BUSINESS)
Ordered,
That at this day's Sitting Proceedings on any Private Business set down for consideration at Seven o'clock by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means shall, instead of being considered at that hour, be considered at the conclusion of Government Business; that the Third Reading of the Anglesey Marine Terminal Bill [Lords] may be proceeded with, though opposed, until Twelve o'clock, or for two hours after it has been entered upon, whichever is the later; and that the Third Reading of the Dundee Extension Order Confirmation Bill may be proceeded with, though opposed, for one and a half hours after it has been entered upon.—[The Prime Minister.]

EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY (SUMMIT MEETING)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[The Prime Minister.]
3.52 p.m.
Mr. Harold Wilson: The purpose of this debate, on the Opposidon's initiative, in Opposition time, is to enable the House, before Thursday's summit, to debate the issues raised by that meeting, the basis and the credentials on which the Prime Minister will be attending it, and to warn him against further concessions which he may intend to make, and for which he has no authority from the British people.
A debate before an important conference follows many Parliamentary precedents. The right hon. Gentleman, as Leader of the Opposition, frequently insisted on one or, indeed, more debates before certain White House meetings and on other occasions. The House has the right to insist, too, that, on his return, Parliament should have not merely a full report—and a few words after Questions will not do—but a full debate in Government time.
But there is another consideration arising out of the right hon. Gentleman's treatment of this House. It is not only that he censored debate, railroaded through Parliament a Measure which was an outrage against all the constitutional doctrines and practices of our democracy over the years; it is not merely that the Government deliberately decided, on grounds of political expediency and the rationing of Parliamentary time, against considering the acceptance of a single Amendment—a Clause, a line, even a word—in either House, however strong the case for an Amendment; but—that is why we must have this debate—that on many of the gravest issues raised throughout the debates over the past 18 months, the Government have been deliberately uninformative about their intentions.
Major questions were raised by my right hon. and hon. Friends, and also by hon. Gentlemen opposite, on the interpretation of the Treaties, on undertakings given and positions accepted by the Prime Minister in his talks with President
40
Pompidou, and other European ministerial meetings, about defence, including nuclear issues, about monetary commitments, about sterling balances, about the parity of sterling, and about many more issues. When these were raised during the passage of the Bill, Ministers made it clear that they had no more intention of answering them than of allowing the free consideration of Amendments. It was an unprecedented record of concealment, secretiveness and evasion by the 1970 adherents of "open Government".
Of course there was a reason. We read it from time to time in Press stories which emanated not from suspicious commentators, for the Press was unanimously in support of the right hon. Gentleman on the Market, but from what those journalists were told on authority. The reason was that, faced with a continuing prospect of minuscule majorities on the Bill, the Government preferred to hide their real intentions for fear of arousing apprehensions among their supporters or of aggravating growing popular resistance to the Government's plans in the country.
Let us take defence. The Prime Minister has been committed for years to the idea of an Anglo-French nuclear deterrent in statements and discussions, principally abroad. That is where he has made these statements. But he has muted this theme in this country. We heard nothing of it in the last General Election, and every question which has been put to him at Question Time and in the debates has been brushed aside. Every Opposition warning of what it would mean if, for example, there were a German component, even an indirect influence in nuclear control, with all that would mean for NATO and the Atlantic Alliance, for détente with the East and relations between the West and the Soviet bloc, has always been brushed aside. But there has never been—which has made me suspicious—any repudiation of what were known to be the Prime Minister's views over a long period. All the House was told was that it did not arise, it had not been discussed, it would not come up—perhaps it would go away—it was not being considered. Perhaps he was careful not to allow it to be raised. It was not allowed to be raised before he had driven his Bill through Parliament.

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But even before that Bill could receive the Royal Assent, the Secretary of State for Defence, last Friday, at the Conservative Party Conference, drew the veil aside just a little. He is reported as saying that
"the evolution of European defence must include some kind of European nuclear force, although not on a scale comparable to that of the United States."
Can the Government now claim that this is not a live issue, that it has not been considered? Will the Prime Minister—this is nothing to laugh at; the right hon. Gentleman should answer this question—or, failing him, will the Foreign Secretary today tell the House categorically that there has been no discussion of these matters with any European powers, none during the Brussels negotiations, none in any of the bilateral talks with the French President or Ministers, none at NATO meetings, none in the European Defence Group or the sort of dining meetings held at NATO ministerial conferences?
The Prime Minister on Saturday in his speech was asking people to say "Yes" more often. I now ask him to say yes or no to this question: Did the statement of the Secretary of State for Defence last Friday represent the policy of Her Majesty's Government?
Hon. Members: Answer.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Edward Heath): The Secretary of State said that he visualised that at some future time there would be a movement towards a European deterrent. He has said this on many occasions in the past. I have said it in the past, and I have put it deliberately in the form of an Anglo-French trust for the rest of Europe. There is nothing secret about this. It has been publicly discussed, as the right hon. Gentleman knows. I have discussed it many times in this House. I have also told the House absolutely frankly that it was not discussed with President Pompidou, because he did not wish to discuss it and nor did I. The right hon. Gentleman should also know, if he has ever studied French policy, that the French are not in favour of it.
Mr. Wilson: The right hon. Gentleman seems to write this down as a personal view, a personal idiosyncrasy, of the
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Secretary of State for Defence and of himself. He did not answer my question: is it the policy of Her Majesty's Government? Is he going to work towards it or against it? He did not answer this question.
It is certainly a fact that the right hon. Gentleman, whilst he has stated it many times in Vienna, in the Godk in lectures—and almost in this House—has not made an issue of this and has tried to veil it from discussion throughout the whole period we have been debating in this House entry into Europe. Will he tell us, too, on the Bill for example, that this was put forward as the view of the Government? It was not. It was veiled from the House. This was why he and the French President did not want it raised until the Bill had been railroaded through the House.
The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman may recall that the Treaty of Rome does not cover defence.
Mr. Wilson: Exactly. The Treaty of Rome does not cover defence. I remember the NATO Parliamentarians' Meeting in 1962 when Dr. Hallstein talked of a three-stage rocket: economic Europe, political Europe, defence Europe. The right hon. Gentleman has talked of defence Europe. So, now, has his own Secretary of State for Defence. He ought to get up in this House and repudiate that statement that was made.
I should like the right hon. Gentleman to give an assurance that this matter will not be discussed at this week's summit, whether round the conference table or in the couloirs. Any move in that direction will meet the opposition of the British people even more than the decision to ride roughshod over their views in entering the Common Market on the terms which the right hon. Gentleman has negotiated.
Any move in the direction of the European nuclear policy will be instantly repudiated by an incoming Labour Government. This issue, and this issue alone, and the denial and repudiation for which I have asked and have not been given, justifies this pre-summit debate, even though we could not have known when we chose the subject for debate that the Secretary of State for Defence would innocently let the Government's thinking emerge and see daylight.

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I do not intend today to repeat all the arguments of the Great Debate, or even such of the vitally important issues as we were graciously permitted to debate, under the guillotine, in the proceedings on the European Communities Bill. On the acceptability of the terms, the Government and the Opposition have made clear their respective positions. The Government accept the terms, even glory in them. We reject them as humiliating and crippling for Britain.
I have shown yet again, and set out the evidence—the prior warnings that we gave Europe when we were the Government—that the terms could not have been accepted by the Labour Government had we remained in office after June, 1970, and been charged with the negotiations. We have set out precisely how the incoming Labour Government will act. We shall seek to alter those terms by negotiation. We have set out the issues calling for fundamental revision. And, be the results acceptable or unacceptable to the Government, we shall submit the conclusion of those negotiations to the British people for final acceptance or rejection—the same right as was given to the people of Ireland, Norway and Denmark.
Mr. John Biggs-Davison: Will this re-negotiation have priority over the re-negotiation of the Nassau Agreement?
Mr. Wilson: The Nassau Agreement was dealt with by the announcement that we made about the renunciation of what Mr. Macmillan accepted. This matter will have absolute priority in the incoming Labour Government, and the hon. Gentleman may even vote for us by that time.
The Prime Minister went to Italy and started a long-range domestic battle about the sanctity of treaties. The sanctity of treaties. The right hon. Gentleman's remarks on this score will be treated with all the respect, but no more, that he earned by his record as Chief Whip at the time of the multi-treaty-breaking Suez operation. More recently, in April, the right hon. Gentleman entered into the most solemn of agreements with his prospective European partners, and proceeded to break it in June.
The lesson to be learned from the Prime Minister's action in repudiating
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that agreement is not that treaties should be broken when they become inconvenient but that no Government should enter into agreements or treaties which they know they will not be able to keep and which are bound to be crippling to this country, as the Government fairly argued was the case when they broke the agreement last June. In any event, the April agreement was a clear denial of freedom which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had announced for himself in his Budget speech in March in connection with the parity of sterling.
If the argument was that the Government signed this agreement because the right hon. Gentleman had committed himself to President Pompidou at one of his meetings, that merely underlines the need not to make secret commitments which one knows one cannot keep. It underlines, too, the need for frankness by the Government with the House, today, before this week's summit, and also after the summit has taken place.
The sanctity of treaties—except for the right hon. Gentleman on his record—is an important factor, as I urged last October before the House took its first vote on Europe. But equally important is our constitutional doctrine that one Parliament cannot bind another. The view which I expressed last October on this was given authoritative support during the debate on the European Communities Bill by no less a Member than the Solicitor-General. On 5th July he quoted all the constitutional authorities, including his noble Friend the Lord Chancellor, and made clear that future Parliaments could reverse the Bill and reverse the Treaty. He quoted the noble Lord the Lord Chancellor—and I, too, propose to quote him—who said:
"We do not treat treaties as scraps of paper; but we have always in practice had the power to do so, since power is a question of fact and power is the reality of sovereignty."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 27th July, 1971; Vol. 323, c. 203.]
The right hon. Gentleman must not repudiate the Lord Chancellor as well as the Secretary of State for Defence. He ought to begin to know where he is.
But there was one overriding consideration which the right hon. Gentleman did not have in mind when he addressed the Blackpool Labour Party Conference from Rome. The treaty which

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he signed, which he now claims as sacrosanct, was signed without one whit of authority from the British people whom he claimed to represent, those whose "full-hearted consent" he had told the self-same people, in 1970, he would require in order to take Britain into Europe. It was a treaty which he signed without even Parliament being able to debate the issues with the text of the treaty and protocols before it.
Since I have referred to fresh negotiations, I must refer to the importunings of Dr. Mansholt, the present, and very lame duck, President of the Commission. I use the phrase "lame duck" in its American sense, and not in any of the definitions given to it in alternate years by Conservative Ministers at Conservative Conferences.
Dr. Mansholt has been effectively answered by a leading article in The Times of 5th October, which said:
"It is silly of Dr. Mansholt to say there can be no re-negotiation."
The reaction of Cabinet Ministers last week to an outburst by another Commissioner supported the line that I took about Dr. Mansholt. On Wednesday the Vice-President of the Commission, M. Raymond Barre, was reported as saying that a compulsory prices and incomes policy might have to be introduced throughout the EEC if Governments, employers and unions fail to check inflation by other means.
That must have been very galling to the Prime Minister, because he is on record hundreds of times against any such policy, compulsory or voluntary. I have the texts. I shall not quote all that the right hon. Gentleman has said, but I invite him to re-read his speech at Carshalton on 8th July, 1969, which he may remember because, contrary to all that I read in the Press, I am sure he intends, at all costs, to keep just one of the promises on which he was elected. Although the right hon. Gentleman seems contented, even enthusiastic, at the prospect of a European authority imposing on the British people by force of law measures which he would not wish to put himself before Parliament, I think that he would draw the line at welcoming European insistence on imposing a compulsory prices and incomes policy which is
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"impracticable, unfair, undesirable and an unjustifiable infringement of the freedom of the individual."
But in the Mansholt context it was interesting to note in The Times this comment:
"Ministers attending the Conservative Party Conference were not unduly surprised by M. Barre's statement but emphasised that he is an official and cannot speak for the Council of Ministers."
That is what we said, when we were in Blackpool, about Dr. Mansholt, so let us hear no more of his views about the impossibility of fresh negotiations. I have raised the matter because it is likely to be mentioned and I do not want to address the House twice today. The right hon. Gentleman made the point in his interview in The Times and also during the week of the conference about negotiations as well as about the sanctity of treaties, so perhaps it is best to get rid of the only respectable supporter that he ever had for that view.
The Prime Minister must recognise that the reality overhanging the summit is the reality of an incoming Labour Government in this country with a demand for fresh negotiations, and if he is going to pursue a project for which he cannot now even pretend to claim national support, he would be well advised to start on the negotiations now, this week. The right hon. Gentleman has our list of subjects on which new terms are required. If he has lost it, I shall be pleased to send him a copy.
The right hon. Gentleman will know of the acute anxiety felt in this House, and far and wide outside this House, about commitments in the field of monetary policy. I believe that the Prime Minister, in part at least, perhaps more than he has told us. must share these anxieties. I have referred to the currency shambles which forced the Government last June to repudiate a policy on which they had accepted such binding commitments seven weeks before. But the right hon. Gentleman has been, and is, under strong pressure now to fix a new sterling parity and to keep it within that narrow range of 2¼ per cent. as between any two European countries required by the "snake in the tunnel" part of the European Monetary Union Agreement, as against the 4½ per cent. under the Smithsonian Agreement of last December.

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The right hon. Gentleman must realise the dangers of such a commitment. He had a bitter foretaste in June. He must realise what this must mean for his commitment to a 5 per cent. growth rate and for any hopes of reducing the unacceptable, near-million, unemployment rate into which the Prime Minister has led the country.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer realises it. [Interruption.] The Prime Minister laughs at a million unemployed; it is becoming absolutely impossible. I am sorry that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not here this afternoon because he could have given us some reinforcement on this point. In his Budget speech he referred to the lesson of the international balance of payments upsets in recent years and said:
"It is neither necessary nor desirable to distort domestic economies to an unacceptable extent in order to maintain unrealistic exchange rates, whether they are too high or too low."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st March, 1972: Vol 833, c. 1354.]
He said that, we were told to encourage domestic industrial investment.
So far, it must be said, investment this year is below that of last year, and the Department of Trade's projection for next year is anything but bright. We cannot compete with Europe, inside or outside the Market, on the present abysmal level of investment. But the Chancellor's one escape mechanism, a change of parity, which attracted so much attention in his Budget speech, is effectively foreclosed to him by the commitment which his European partners are demanding from him.
I ask the Government: has this commitment been accepted? Until last week there was a conspiracy of governmental silence—although, to be fair to the Foreign Secretary, he did appear to know something at one point of time about this. Emerging from the financial discussions at a meeting of Foreign and Finance Ministers last month, and in the context of European monetary cooperation, he explained, in a moment of rare
hubris:
"We are now in a position to chart the way ahead for the next ten years".
But he, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer were unable to tell the country, and the country's
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trade and industrial and financial institutions who had to make plans ahead —what plans they had for charting the sterling parity rate in the next 10 weeks.
President Pompidou appeared to know better. At his Press conference on 21st September he for his part was confident that a commitment had been given. He had, he said, "reason to be confident". The Financial Times reporting this, added:
" … thus strongly suggestting that he had received a personal undertaking to this effect from the British Government."
Had he? Was this given in secret? If so, when was it given and why was the country not told? Those of us who are most concerned about unemployment—and in this we were fortified by the Chancellor's Budget reference—hoped that there had not been, and would not be, such a commitment. But last Thursday the Chancellor ended his secrecy—characteristically, at the Conservative Party Conference. He then said:
"We intend to return to fixed parity as soon as conditions permit, which I hope will be before January 1st."
Last week he gave a date, which previously he had consistently refused to do.
If through European pressures, be they threats or blandishments, this foolhardy commitment has been made, then we must warn the Prime Minister, before he goes to Paris, against making that undertaking a reality. I know that he does not intend to speak today but I want him to listen—[An HON. MEMBER: "Coward."] I must dissociate myself from that remark. When I was Prime Minister and did not speak, the right hon. Gentleman chose to say similar things about me. But I am not making such an accusation against him. It would have been better for the right hon. Gentleman to have spoken today, but I will not trade discourtesy against his discourtesy.
If through European pressures this commitment has been made, then I warn the Government that all their hopes for more industrial production and for a reduction in unemployment will be dogged by a constant threat—and in its impact it can be as sudden and as devastating as the events of last June. The Chancellor knows it and the Prime Minister knows it.

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The Chancellor of the Exchequer knows the state of our visible trade accounts. Making every allowance for the lingering after-effects of the dock strike which the Government's legalistic blundering created, he knows that the figures for the last three months give no reason whatever for hoping that the ominous second quarter deficit was giving way to an improvement. Even the Economist commented:
"It now looks as if Britain will be lucky merely to break even on current account this year"—
that was against the billion-pound plus surplus last year, their inheritance from the Labour Government. The Economist went on to say:
"The latest figures show how right Mr. Heath has been to resist pressures to re-peg the pound."
But before those words were even on the streets, the Chancellor proved the Economist wrong, and proved that the aforementioned Mr. Heath was not right but dead wrong, because he wants to re-peg the £. [An HON. MEMBER: "He has got to."] Yes, he has got to—he has no choice. Now the Chancellor may not have the way out about which he told us in the Budget. Not only is he again bound by the European monetary agreement, but a further float or devaluation will arouse great hostility from their prospective European partners, for we have seen the effect of past currency changes on the whole intricate Heath Robinson, or now the Heath-Mansholt, agricultural contraption.
The Government have every reason to recognise and fear the power of mass movements of volatile international currency. There was a total of £1,000 million lost in six working days last June, as the Chancellor told us. Has anything basically changed? The virulent power of the Euro-currency market is as great as ever. Have the Governnment any pledges from Europe about adequate, assured and mobilisable counter-speculative funds? The pathetic two billion dollars created by the monetary agreement last April was enough to keep the Frankfurt and Amsterdam money markets open for just one hour on that Friday morning in June. We wish to be told how unbreachable is the new European Maginot line today against currency upsets. It is not only short-term capital movements. I have referred to the grim record of domestic industrial investment.
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Almost every Market speech made by the Prime Minister over the past two years has been intended to herald a great surge of investment to meet the Market opportunities in Europe. What has happened to it? As soon as he secured a majority in this House for European entry, he sounded his muezzin-call invoking the industrial and City establishments to their devotions—and their investment intentions. I quote his Guildhall speech of last November:
"I should like to see the boards of directors of every company in the land meeting this week…".
He charged them in moving terms to
"commission new factory buildings, to order new plant and equipment"
and called for
"a major programme of investment in industrial expansion and modernisation."
And to that clarion call, the response from the boards of directors of every company in the land has been a collective industrial raspberry. The investment boom has been confined, under this Government, to land and property speculation.
We were told more than this. Ministers painted bright pictures of massive investment by European and multi-national corporations in Britain. So far we have the Hunterston scheme. But how much else?
The Prime Minister: If the right hon. Gentleman is about to leave the matter of international currency, since it is a serious matter I should make the situation quite plain. This Government have always said they support an international system of fixed parities, in exactly the same way as did the right hon. Gentleman's Government. The time and rate for fixing sterling is a matter for this Government's decision. This Government have been under no pressure from members in the Community—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] No undertaking has been given of any kind. The confidence which the President of France has is that this country believes in fixed parities. The difference between this Government and the right hon. Gentleman's Government is that, whereas we took the right decision to float at the right moment and saved our reserves, the right hon. Gentleman's Government tried to hang on to a parity, which the then Chancellor thought was not possible or necessary, and as a result

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they lost their reserves and went into debt. That is the difference.
Mr. Wilson: The point is that the Prime Minister defaulted on the agreement which he signed in April—[Interruption.] Of course he did. He devalued—[An HON. MEMBER: "Floated."] Then will he tell us that he will put the new fixed parity at 2·60 to the £?
The Prime Minister: What the right hon. Gentleman does not understand about the agreement in Europe is that it allows one to change parities. He must grasp this simple point about the European agreement. If Governments decide to change parities to meet the needs of their economies they can do so, and they can do so in consultation with their colleagues. What we did was to float at that time and all the members of the Community have understood that perfectly well.
Mr. Wilson: They understood that we had to do so because of the mess this Government got the country into. In fact the agreement was one not to change parities by more than 1¼ per cent., and the right hon. Gentleman did change it. He must reconcile the commitment to Europe with what the Chancellor said in his Budget speech.
I was referring to the investment by European countries, and I mentioned Hunterston. I should like the Government to tell us the figures of investment from Europe here and from here to Europe. Although industry has not shown the alacrity the Prime Minister wanted in terms of investment in this country, there is growing evidence of both industrial and financial investment by British concerns in Europe—not all of it designed to increase our exports of British components and CKD kits for assembly. I hope the Foreign Secretary will say how he assesses the present investment trends between this country and Europe.
Since many hon. Members will wish to speak in this debate I shall leave my right hon. Friend the Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore), if he catches Mr. Speaker's eye, to develop further reasons—and there are many—for anxiety about the Government's commitments on monetary policy. But there are two thoughts I wish to put before the House
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in the hope that the Foreign Secretary will deal with them.
I have quoted his words about charting the way ahead for the next 10 years. Will he take us into his confidence? How does he see the way ahead for the next 10 years? There are many leading figures in Europe who believe that there can be no European monetary policy unless there is full integration of economic policies, including fiscal, social and industrial policies. It means, as they see it, a European budget covering expenditure and taxation, completing the process of destroying the power of this Parliament which was so obviously the motive of the European Communities Bill.
For many in Europe, this is not only the inevitable consequence. It is what they want. I do not know whether the Prime Minister wants it. He has never told us during the time he has been trying to lure his somewhat unwilling majority to carry the Bill.
The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman put his name to the Anglo-Italian Declaration which I reaffirmed in Rome.
Mr. Wilson: I never put my name, in Rome or anywhere else, to any proposal on these terms or any other. We are required to take steps which will mean that this House is powerless to decide expenditure or taxation. Is this the concept of economic integration which the Prime Minister wants to see? That is what some in Europe want. They are federalists, which the right hon. Gentleman has always said he is not. If the answer is "No" he is misleading Europe and, by adhering to the European Monetary Agreement, hobbling the British economy. If this is what he wants, then he is systematically misleading this House throughout debates on the Common Market and on the Common Market legislation, since he has never said that this is what he wants to see.
But there is a still wider consideration. The deep monetary problems of trade and finance, on a world scale, in a world where the Bretton Woods settlement, after a quarter of a century has passed into history, cannot be solved by regional monetary pacts.
I will not develop this topic this afternoon. though hon. Members may have

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seen a perceptive and wide-ranging study by Mr. Fred Hirsch, published in the Economist early in August. Hon. Members may have read his devastating chapter entitled, "Europe—the money illusion", with his clear warnings that countries on the periphery, countries with an uncertain balance of payments, countries facing costly capital movements, will be forced into deflation and unemployment. But on the issue of world monetary reform he gives this warning:
" … as long as European monetary integration remains on the official agenda, it overrides other aspects of future planning in all related spheres. The ambiguity of whether the world's largest trading unit is to be represented by nine currencies or by one has become the most serious stumbling block towards monetary reform on an international plane."
I hope that in his speech the Foreign Secretary, who has world-wide responsibilities including responsibility for Third World countries, will deal with the point about relating the European Monetary Agreement to greater monetary reform.
The House will want to know the Government's intentions on regional policy. We understand————because this is a much more open Government in their dealing with the Press than in their dealings with the House—that the right hon. Gentleman intends to lay claim to a charge on the Community's "resources propres" for industrial regions comparable with what he to lamely accepted for agriculture. This is important and we wish him well in pressing it at the summit—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Some of us are a little more concerned about the regions than are some hon. Members. In my constituency, kids cannot get work—it is one of the classic parts of the country—so we have an interest in the regions. Therefore, again I say that I wish the right hon. Gentleman well. But why in the name of heaven, the balance of payments and the future of a million unemployed did he not insist on it in place of the one-sided package dictated to him by the French President in 1971?
Instead of that, he accepted the most crippling burdens on our freedom to help the regions. I want him to say—or perhaps the Foreign Secretary will tell us—which of the powers conferred by the Industrial Expansion Act, how many of the expenditure programmes announced by Ministers, or under consideration by
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Ministers, will be sanctioned by Brussels. I have seen suggestions that the people in Brussels are protesting already. For example, we read in the Financial Times:
"Last week saw the announcement of a major new investment by an American engineering company on a site previously occupied by GEC in Manchester "—
in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Wythenshaw (Mr. Alfred Morris):
"the Americans' decision to locate there rather than on the Continent was evidently influenced by the range of aids which the British Government can now provide."
That is very encouraging but we now read that the European Commission in Brussels is showing a somewhat anxious interest in this on the grounds that these incentives are diverting to Britain Americans who might settle in Europe. We would like some pretty clear indication from the Government about whether the Act they passed has to he approved by Brussels. It is no good the Prime Minister shaking his head; he signed the Treaty of Rome before the House had ever seen it.
In previous debates my right hon. Friends and I have expressed our deep apprehensions about the consequences for the regions of whatever commitments the Government may have accepted in pricing policies, transport policies and interference with major public industries. In the summer of 1971, even before the Government's entry terms were known, I repeatedly pressed the Government about the position of the British steel industry. The House may recall our exchanges.
The prosperity of the steel industry is vital to some of the hardest hit regions, whatever regional pourboire the Prime Minister may extract from his European colleagues. The steel industry is of great importance in any policy for dealing with inflation—the Prime Minister must know that—and for financial relations between Government and public industry. Is there a clash between the Government's prices and incomes policy—limited, slanted and socially unjust as it is—and the commitments entered into in the entry negotiations? It would be nice for the House to know, even after 15 months, precisely what commitments were entered into.

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We must be told the full story today. All the House was told—and the legislation provided this—was that the ministerial power of direction on prices had to go. But we were not to be allowed to influence the BSC to hold prices, as is understood to be in the Chequers package, including the use of subsidies. Are we to be free after 1st January to lean on the Steel Board to keep steel prices down? This is a question to which I should like a clear answer this afternoon.
In asking this, I find myself once again, surprisingly, supported by the Economist, whose economic editor is, I understand, the former draftsman of the Prime Minister's "at a stroke" commitments, and later a highly paid Cabinet Office official. Last Friday, on steel, the Economist pointed out the contradiction between the Chequers proposals—a 4 per cent limit on prices—and the obligation the Government entered into at Brussels.
The Economist stated:
"If the Government does use its influence as the major shareholder in the nationalised British Steel Corporation and controls prices after January 1st, it can be taken to task by the EEC and perhaps even taken eventually to the Court of Justice in Luxembourg. These threats forced the Dutch Government to back down in 1969 when it attempted to control steel prices, but the alternative facing the British Government is too economically scarifying to leave it open to any other choice: if it accepts that steel is a special case, there will be a lot of other manufacturers rushing to squeeze through the same breach."
The Economist might have gone on to add that even if other industries do not follow suit, steel prices have so great an effect in determining other prices throughout industry that an unbridled rise to European price levels will make it immeasurably harder for the CBI to accept, and to honour, the 4 per cent. limit. And well the CBI knows it. Steel prices are decisive to the Chequers package, but steel prices cannot be held down once we are in Europe.
The Economist claims to know, though the House has not been told, the Government's ideas about how they are going to reconcile the irreconcilable. I will not quote what the Economist said would be done, but it goes on, after referring to the Continental steel workers and, in passing, to the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, by saying:
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"… before long static British steel prices may prompt these same Continental steel workers to remember that it was this same Minister who assured them that BSC would be given full commercial freedom (including prices) under EEC rules. It was on this basis that it was agreed to admit the giant BSC into Europe in one piece."
Was it that same Minister? Was there a deal that prices should go up to European levels in return for Europe's dropping its pressure to split the BSC into smaller units? What did he undertake? And why was the House not told at the time? I suppose the point was that he never realised that there was this contradiction pointed out by the Economist. He could not have known that three months before the date fixed for entry the Prime Minister would be seeking to negotiate a prices and incomes policy in which steel prices would be decisive. It is all very sad for the poor fellow. But the extent of commitment given was what some of us were asking about in the summer of 1971. The Prime Minister has no right to represent Britain at the summit until the House is satisfied on this "scarifying" contradiction between whatever commitments they entered into in Europe and their public policy on inflation.
So, when the Foreign Secretary replies, the House will expect an answer to the questions I have put to him. It will not do to leave them to his right hon. Friend who will speak at 9.30. Many hon. Members who wish to speak in this debate will want to know the answers to these vitally important questions. And the Government, and above all the Foreign Secretary, must know the answers. They can be concealed no longer.
In order to help the Foreign Secretary, I will briefly give him a recap of the questions that must be answered if this debate, and consequentially the Prime Minister's attendance at the summit, are to be meaningful.
First, on defence, does he agree with his noble Friend the Secretary of State for Defence in the words he spoke at Blackpool last week? Do Her Majesty's Government seek a European defence policy, including nuclear weapons? Would such a policy include any German influence, direct or indirect, on nuclear policy? Is that what the Foreign Secretary, speaking, as he must, for the Prime Minister, seeks? Or will he categorically

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repudiate the Defence Secretary? If he does not repudiate him, will he say why this nuclear policy was not outlined to the House when we had to take vital decisions about EEC entry and the European Community Bill?
Next, on the Chancellor's Budget commitment, does the Budget reservation of the right to make changes in sterling parity to protect growth and to reduce unemployment still stand? If so, does this mean that Her Majesty's Government are free, at any time, to renegotiate on the European Monetary Agreement, and on the parity to be fixed under that Agreement before 1st January, as indicated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer last week?
Again, was any assurance about parity given to European Ministers before the Blackpool announcement? If not, will he repudiate President Pompidou's implied claim to be in possession of prior information denied to this House?
Then, before the Chancellor made his announcement last week, what assurances did Her Majesty's Government receive from European Governments about the protection available against a run on sterling? In the light of the Foreign Secretary's own personal assessments of the complexities of the Euro-currency market, will he give his personal assurance that these guarantees are adequate?
On another issue, will the Foreign Secretary confirm that acceptance of the obligations of the European Monetary Agreement means no more than the parity obligation, and the "snake in the tunnel"; and that he will enter into no further commitments in Paris this week? Would he put the House further in his debt by giving it his inner reflections on the "snake in the tunnel" commitment? Does he accept the widespread European view that this commitment involves a further commitment to European economic integration—fiscal, budgetary, social and industrial? If that is his view, will he explain why the House of Commons was not so informed before the signature of the Treaty and the passage of the European Communities Bill?
Then I would ask him, with his wider world, and Commonwealth, responsibilities, does he agree or not agree with authoritative statements, such as those I
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have quoted, that monetary reform must be on a world scale, not a regional scale, and that indeed inward-looking, umbilical-contemplating, Euro-regional policies, can and must be inimical to the achievement of a world-wide monetary settlement to replace the now defunct Bretton Woods mechanism?
On another issue I have raised, will he give us his assessment of inward and outward investment trends?
On regional questions, will he tell the House how far the Government's new powers to help regional investment will be permitted by the EEC? Will he say how many of the specific guarantees to individual enterprises in the regions, or those under consideration by the Government, will be permitted by EEC rules?
On commitments that have been made or have not been made, conscious as he no doubt is of the vital importance of a policy to deal with inflation, will he now tell the House what commitment the Government gave 15 months ago about steel prices—or coal prices, if he will extend or stretch himself? Will he state how far any such commitment was related to EEC acquiescence in the continuation of the Steel Corporation as a single entity? And will he perhaps tell the House why Parliament was not informed? If he tells us that there was no such commitment, will he confirm that the Prime Minister is entirely free to relate steel prices to the totality of his proposals for domestic prices? And if, as is possible, he does not know the answers, will he ask his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry to seek to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker?
While the right hon. Gentleman is rearranging his notes, to ensure that all these 25 questions will be answered, as they must be answered, I will briefly address myself, through you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, to the Prime Minister.
We should have liked to hear from him before the summit, but since he has decided otherwise I want him to realise that he will speak in Paris manifestly without the authority of the British people. We recall his reference to the need for the
"… full-hearted consent of the Parliament and peoples of the new member countries "

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On Election Forum, on 27th May, he said:
"I will go further and say this—no British Government could possibly take this country into the Common Market against the wish of the British people."
He has not secured that consent: his action is against the wish of the British people. And in so far as he claims the authority of Parliament, it is a Parliament which was deliberately denied information available to him, and a Parliament whose legislative proceedings were themselves robbed of authority by the denial of free debate and the refusal to consider a single Amendment.
So I would ask him to make this clear to those with whom he will be negotiating: first, that the mandate he pretends he has from the British people never existed, and that an increasing proportion of the public are opposed to entry on these terms; that a majority—even of Conservative voters, it appears—want a referendum so that it can decide. The latest public opinion poll shows that of Conservative votes less than half now support entry. Of Tory voters, 63 per cent. want a referendum, and 77 per cent. of all voters want a referendum. The right hon. Gentleman rejects it. That is why he will speak at the summit without any authority beyond his own obsessions.
Second, I hope that he will make it clear at the summit that after him there will be a British Government who reject the terms he was prepared to accept; a Government who cannot support British membership on these terms; who will demand fresh negotiations and who, following these negotiations, will leave the final outcome about British membership, one way or the other, to the sovereign authority of the British people.
4.39 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Sir Alec Douglas-Home): I think that it must have been the wish of the House, as the pattern of our relationship changes with Europe, that there should be a constructive debate, with constructive proposals put forward which my right hon. Friend could consider in relation to the meeting which is to be held this week. But we have known also that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition
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could not resist jogging backwards. He went so far as to repeat and rehash arguments for a Social Government renegotiating the terms of entry into Europe, with the implication that the renegotiation would be pretty fundamental. [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear."] One of his right hon. Friends says "Hear, hear". The Leader of the Opposition must know that, if he wants European membership, the attitude which he takes up is totally unrealistic. [HON MEMBERS: " Why? "]
The right hon. Gentleman asked me 25 questions. I shall ask him just one. What would he do about the common agricultural policy, which is fundamental to the whole Common Market set-up? Perhaps I may remind him and the House of what he said in relation to the common agricultural policy:
"It is useless to think that we can wish it away, and I should be totally misleading the House if I suggested that this policy is negotiable. We have to come to terms with it. But we can play our part in affecting its future development if, but only if, we are members of the Community."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th May, 1967; Vol. 746, c. 1066.]
Mr. Harold Wilson: Will the right hon. Gentleman now read what I said in that statement to the House in relation to the financing of the common agricultural policy as it then was, and will he tell the House how much it has changed between 2nd May, 1967, and the present time?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I should be surprised if almost the whole House did not understand, and does not now understand, that the right hon. Gentleman intends to renegotiate the agricultural policy. In fact, he said that it is not negotiable, and he knows it. As he looked behind him, perhaps he will allow me one small reminiscence of our debates in the past in which he played so prominent a part. I recall the time when he and Lord George-Brown, in harness, made a triumphant tour of the capitals of Europe, carrying conviction that, as he put it, not only the Socialist Government over which he presided but the British Parliament meant business in relation to entry into the Community. It was the sheer burning fervour of the right hon. Gentleman at that time that swept me along the European road. But I do not remember his saying, with that humility

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which sits so easily on his shoulders, "I may be fallible, and, therefore, of course, the British people should speak in a referendum and give their opinion ".
Quite the opposite. On 8th July, 1971, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said this in response to my right hon. Friend:
"The Prime Minister said that I oppose a referendum, and I agree—I have always done so, as he has ".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th July, 1971; Vol. 820, c. 1515.]
He has capitulated, I suppose, to his right hon. Friend who is absent from the Opposition Front Bench today. Still less did he forecast a General Election on the issue. I do not want to rub salt in the wounds, but it is for the Prime Minister of the day to choose the date of a General Election, and the right hon. Gentleman's last choice was not conspicuously successful. Perhaps he will leave it to my right hon. Friend to choose the time when we go to the country and to determine what we put forward and ask for as a mandate.
On defence, the right hon. Gentleman has taken up a sentence used by my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. He said—if I have his words aright—that there has never been any mention of the future of European defence, even at the General Election. I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman, if I may say so, was the last person to raise such a subject. My memory stretches back to 1964, when the right hon. Gentleman went to the people and said that he would renegotiate the Nassau agreement, and that Britain need no longer have a nuclear weapon. That was in his prospectus. What happened? The right hon. Gentleman did not renegotiate it, and it has not been renegotiated to this day. I repeat, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman is hardly the person to throw across the Floor charges on the subject of defence, and on nuclear defence least of all.
I think it right, now that Britain is to enter the Community, when the pattern of our relations with other countries—
Mr. Harold Wilson rose—
Hon. Members: Oh!
Mr. Wilson: The Prime Minister intervened some four or five times, and I
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think that I am entitled to ask the Secretary of State about this. I hope that he is not leaving the subject of defence. Does he agree with the noble Lord's speech? Further, since he referred to the 1964 election, does he remember that I challenged him, then Prime Minister, to give an assurance that he would not support any European nuclear deterrent? I kept on challenging him, and I never had a clear answer. Will he now answer the question: does he support the European nuclear force referred to by the Secretary of State for Defence?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: The right hon. Gentleman did not get his answer in 1964, and he will not get in 1972 an answer of the kind that he wants. I put it to him in this way, if I may. No one yet knows the shape of European or Atlantic defence in the next 25 or even 50 years. Every possible aspect of this has to be considered over the years. But this debate relates to the summit meeting, and the right hon. Gentleman has dragged in the question. It is emphatically not an issue for this summit conference, though very much an issue for consideration by the House and everyone else interested in the subject of European and Atlantic defence in the future.
I think it right, now that Britain is to enter the Community and when, as I said, the pattern of our relationships with other countries is to change, to concentrate on the real advantages to Europe which partnership can create and of which Britain will reap her share. The purpose of the summit meeting, at this time of expansion, is to chart the course for the Community for the years ahead. There is a successful precedent in the conference at The Hague, which did chart the course for the Six members of the Community for some 10 years.
I can relieve the right hon. Gentleman of certain anxieties. The Prime Minister goes to this conference with no secret deals of any kind. He will identify and pursue British interests. But the right hon. Gentleman seems to persist in his conception of a summit conference, as of the Council of Ministers and, indeed, of the European Council as a whole, as if such things always take place in an atmosphere of confrontation, with the persons concerned locked in combat. No doubt, the national corners are strongly

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argued and contested at meetings of the Council of Ministers, but it is not an exercise in confrontation. It is an exercise in reconciliation and action for the common good. That is the essence of partnership, and it is a partnership into which we are entering.
As for the right hon. Gentleman's questions relating to any action concerning the future exchange rate of sterling—he understands very well the sensitivity of this subject—I would only say that my moments of hubris on the subject are so rare that I shall not add anything to what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in this and other places in recent months.
The agenda, I think, is likely to start off with a discussion of the Community's financial and economic goals. I do not think that there can be much difference, at least between the two Front Benches, concerning items under the heading, "Progress towards monetary union ".
Mr. Eric Deakins: What?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: Let me explain to the hon. Gentleman, if I may. Perhaps he does not heed what his right hon. Friends said when they were Chancellors of the Exchequer. They have applauded this objective. For example, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) said:
"An enlarged Community would be in a position to follow policies which will establish Europe's monetary strength and increase her influence in the world. Such policies might, for example, eventually allow the creation of a common European currency in which all our currencies, including sterling, would be subsumed. Certainly, we in the United Kingdom are ready to make our contribution to the closest possible European co-operation in these matters, which can bring nothing but good to all our peoples."
The right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East may look incredulous but he said it. Presumably the right hon. Gentleman was speaking with the authority of the then Prime Minister. At any rate, the Finance Ministers of the Nine made a useful start in Rome with the creation of a European Fund. That is only a start but the implications could be wide. There has been considerable progress towards European economic and monetary union which should not hold
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back work on international monetary reform. I feel that the external impact and influence of the expanded Community will be in a different league from that which many people expect. It will be the greatest overseas investor and responsible for 40 per cent. of the trade of the world. One of its first aims will be to establish smooth trading relations between the three great industrial units, Europe, the United States and Japan.
There must also be great concern too for policies towards the developing world. The Six have already considerable achievements to their credit in that direction. However, the countries of the expanded Community have a wealth of first-hand experience of the needs of Africa, Asia, the West Indies and other areas which will help in developing the infrastructure of those countries which cannot get off the ground and into the race and bridge the gap which exists between them and the advanced and industrialised nations. That they should face nothing better than a future of subsistence not only nags at the conscience but is bad business. The European Community should certainly be able to mobilise more investment and aid and by co-ordination of the policy of investment and aid for the developing countries secure better value for money. I should think there is broad agreement on that basis.
Mr. Tam Dlyell: What about trade?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I am coming to that in a moment. There is no evidence that the Community is likely to require a bloc mentality, quite the opposite. The preamble to the Treaty denies it. Although it is often forgotten, it is worth recording that it was the Six which negotiated as a Community strongly and successfully in the Kennedy Round of tariff reductions. I doubt if any countries individually would have been able to achieve such a successful result.
It is a British interest and, after ten years, it is now a Community interest, to complement the agricultural policy with regional and industrial policies for the enlarged Community. This is the other side of the coin to increasing financial integration, for the latter cannot proceed very far unless the general economic direction of the different countries can

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be harmonised. Regional policy is due for close study and action by the Community and, I hope, very soon. It should be possible to devise Community programmes to assist the areas where the level of employment is well below the national average. Italy and Britain would define regional problems in much the same way—how to lift the productive potential of certain areas nearer to the level of prosperity of the whole, and thereby attract investment and people. The Germans, with their interest in Community action to improve the lot of ordinary people, label it as social policy but it is near to what we mean by regional policy.
The countries in the Community have similar aims in those matters. It is a problem which none has been particularly successful in solving alone. It may be easier to solve these problems together and if we can find Community resources to supplement the efforts which individual countries are making, that could make a substantial difference to our ability to show results in regional policies in a reasonable time-scale. That is why we shall aim for a date to be set by which the expanded Community will begin to implement a coherent and co-ordinated regional policy.
Mr. Dalyell: The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs knows that there is concern in Scotland about the German attitude to the Industry Bill. Is there anything which the right hon. Gentleman can say to the House on that matter?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I will examine the matter and correspond with the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell). I do not think that I know the point which the hon. Gentleman has in mind. However, I know that the Germans are very interested in social policy which has a close affinity to what we term regional policy. Therefore, I hope that in the Community we shall be able to work out successful regional policies which will be effective in areas such as Scotland which the hon. Member for West Lothian and I know well.
Mr. Dan Jones: Will the right hon. Gentleman put the correspondence in the Library?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I will examine the points made and keep in touch with the hon. Member. We could then look forward to a balance between national interests, a balance between industry and trade on the one hand and agriculture on the other. That is essential to the success of the expanded Community.
Expansion means that it is time for a new look at the Community's institutions. There are certain fixed landmarks: the Commission, the Parliament, and the Council of Ministers. There is no doubt that the latter will remain the body which takes the final decisions. The matter for debate will be how far the powers of the Parliament should be increased. Clearly the Parliament must oversee the activities of the Commission, but before judging the degree of change which should be made in the powers of the Parliament we should like experience of its working at first-hand.
Direct elections are not immediately essential to the increase of the Parliament's necessary supervising powers. I believe that the House will feel that it is prudent to have a good look at the working from inside before making up our mind on the nature and the scope of the reform of the European Parliament.
Sir Harmer Nicholls: Whilst accepting the good sense of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks and while waiting to see what is likely to come from discussion on the eventual Parliament, may I ask my right hon. Friend to bear in mind that in the interim the representatives who go from this House in the initial stages should represent a good number of people who have shown their doubts as to the advisability of signing the Treaty of Rome? It should not merely be made a meeting place for those who have shown their full support without question, for that would not give the impression that the real watch dogs were there to guard British interests.
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: My hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) has made his point. I hope that it will include, whatever their views, good Parliamentarians from both sides of the House. The institutional arrangements are not only important in our domestic context. They matter because it is necessary that the proper

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political authority should be clearly recognisable abroad.
Since the time of Charlemagne, the unity of Europe has been chased as an ideal. It has been elusive, and, worse than that, it has all but been destroyed by discord, jealousies, rivalries and wars. Now is an opportunity for the leaders of the Governments of Western Europe to resurrect the ideal and to point the way by giving it content. It is resurrected by countries with a strong tradition and sense of nationhood, but countries which have come to learn by bitter experience that partnership and interdependence are the better and the only way to the full life. The goal of unity is a long way off, that is true, but prosperity is not an event, it is a process. Unity is not an event, it is a process. Peace is not an event, it is a process. So, let us proceed on our European way.
5.0 p.m.
Mr. Roy Jenkins (Birmingham, Stetchford): The right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary, no doubt due to shortage of time and the many other themes that he had to cover in great depth, did not answer very many of the questions put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. Harold Wilson). But he was fair because he did not answer the question by my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) or that by the hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls). So he answered none of the questions put to him.
When I saw that the debate had been arranged for the first day of our return I felt considerable doubt about its purpose and wisdom, and I still feel that doubt. If the object of the debate was to secure the views of the House before the summit that would be desirable in itself, but in those circumstances it would be better and more natural not to have a vote at the end. In any event, after 11 weeks away there are a number of subjects which more urgently require our attention. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] The Government side should not cheer that too loudly because they have two days this week and neither of the subjects they have put down for those days seem to me of any urgency or real importance at the present time.
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Unemployment stands at over 1 million and the prospect is still bleak. What used to be called the Bank Rate has been increased by a sort of backdoor method by 1 per cent. in the past week. Sterling is at its lowest since the floating so that, in effect, there has been a backdoor devaluation of 7 per cent. There is the revival of rampant inflation and there is the situation in Ulster on which we have had a brief exchange this afternoon. There is the issue of the Uganda Asians on which the country is entitled to a moral lead from the House. All these issues have arisen during the Recess and are of greater public concern than anything we have to debate this week.
If the object of the debate is not to secure the views of the House before the summit, but to go back and try to have the Third Reading or the Second Reading votes or the vote of 28th October again, or to reopen the debate on the principle of entry or to try to delay entry beyond 1st January, that would seem to me an unwise course for the Opposition to take. I did not detect any attempt to raise matters of principle in the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton this afternoon. It would be an unwise course for two reasons. It would begin the autumn with an almost obsessive return to the most divisive issue of the last 18 months. Divisive issues have to be faced but they need not be re-faced every other week.
Second, and still more important, I cannot see the point not merely in relation to my own views, but in relation to the compromise which came out of the Labour Party Conference—a somewhat imprecise compromise, but a compromise just the same—for refusing to accept the facts and for seeking to delay entry. The House knows that the views expressed at Blackpool are not exactly mine, but what emerged there was better than it might have been and I pay tribute to the skill of my right hon. Friend in achieving that result. Nor do I think that there is necessarily as wide a gulf between the broad intention of the statement commended to the Conference by my right hon. Friend and the views of the Labour Europeans as is sometimes thought.
What the Labour Party is surely saying now officially is that it will look at Britain's experience in the Community

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with a sceptical and even jaundiced eye, and if things do not turn out better than we expect it reserves the right to pull out. But if we are to watch what happens we must have something to watch. The assumption of our whole policy quite rightly is that we are going in on 1st January. If that did not happen, we would not have a policy, and even the boilermakers' resolution was based on that assumption. We could not observe what happened to an enlarged Community or renegotiate if we were outside. There would be nothing to renegotiate from unless the idea were abandoned in principle in which case a future Labour Government would have to start again, going back to 1967 with my right hon. Friend making another exploratory tour of the Six. I doubt if that would fill him with enthusiasm any more than it would me.
There is therefore now no point in adding to these divisive effects by trying to vote again on the principle of entry or for delay. I have no intention of taking back the vote I gave on 28th October last year. There are strong reasons under our party system for voting with one party whenever that is possible. I did so on the Bill. The Bill was Government business and there were legitimate objections to its form. But I regarded Third Reading as the end of that road. I draw a distinction between the Opposition's handling of a Government Bill and gratuitous attempts to re-open the question by new Motions.
Tonight we have no Motion, but we have a vote. It is a fairly purposeless vote. It commits no one to anything and I propose to treat it as such. It shows that we are back and clocking in and not much else. But I give clear notice that having leaned over backwards on the Bill I shall vote for no Motions of substance which in any way challenge the principle of entry or seek to delay it beyond 1st January.
I turn now to questions of substance and why, in my view, there is not an impossible gap between present official Labour Party policy and those who accept entry on present terms. The difference here may be more semantic than anything else. I dislike the term "renegotiate" and I would never have chosen it. It implies that in 1974 or 1975 it will be possible to go back to 1971 and to pretend that nothing happened in the mean-
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time. The world is never like that. One can never go back but one must always start from one's present position.
But if the proposition is that if there is no substantial change in the Community, if it tries to remain frozen in a shape dictated by a pattern of national interest which is now out of date or by a pattern of special interest which is now inadequate, inevitably there will be disenchantment and freedom of action and I do not dissent from that. I am in favour of changing the Community and of changing it substantially. That can only be done from within. I doubt whether the threat of withdrawal is as powerful as some of my hon. Friends think. But I in no way underestimate the need for change and I believe that there should be a strong European interest in winning over British public opinion.
I am not indifferent to the lack of enthusiasm in Britain. It is a fact and it is no tribute to the Government's powers of persuasion. It is not a good augury for the future of Europe and unless it can be overcome, as I believe it can, it will mean that we are not a wholly effective Parliament.
The Community has previously recognised the need to still the fears of those within the Six who started doubtful or hostile. It has succeeded with most of French opinion, with the German SPD and even with the Italian Communists. It must be prepared to do the same with us and to recognise that it needs to be demonstrated that British interests can be looked after and benefited just as those of other countries have been. I am encouraged by the fact that the doubts shown in this country, and particularly within the Labour movement, are centred on those issues where the existing Community is already most in a state of flux and most looking for new directions What are these?
First there is the need for a substantial re-allocation of resources towards regional development and away from the excessive concentration upon agriculture Secondly, there must be a greater European commitment towards the Third World and directed much less exclusively towards the Francophone countries of Africa. This is absolutely vital to the whole future prospect of the Third World. As the United States, regrettably recedes

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from its rôle as a major donor, and there is no evidence that this cessation will desist, the only group in the world which can fill that place is not ourselves alone but Europe, accepting its responsibilties to a greater extent than it has done.
Thirdly, there must be more democracy in the political institutions of the Community. That means an effective Parliament with real work to do. I confess that at this stage I am more interested in giving the Parliament work to do, in allowing it to develop teeth, than, for the moment in arguing about exactly how it should be elected.
Fourthly, we must aim to make the Community at least as much concerned with the use of wealth as with its creation. Not nearly enough attention has yet been given to the distribution of wealth, between individual countries, between regions and different groups, or to the problems of amenity and environment.
These are the areas in which the Community is looking for new directions, these are the areas in which real progress can be made. They are vital and can greatly change opinion here. But surely the opportunities which exist are a great argument, whatever may be decided by a Labour Government in future, for playing our full part in the work of the Community meantime. We can hardly complain that the Community has not enough social responsibility and refuse to influence it in the right direction. We can hardly complain that it is a league of capitalists and prevent the Socialist group, by our abstention, from being the largest group within the Community. We can certainly temper our internationalism by a solid respect for British interests. But we cannot pretend that it exists if we return a message of absolute non-cooperation and nothing else.
There have been some who have always wanted to escape from the practical internationalism of Europe on our doorstep by saying that we are interested only in something much wider. I have never found this very convincing. I have never been very impressed by people who illustrate their love for humanity by their hostility towards their neighbours. I also apply a more practical test. Where, if we turn our backs—and I am addressing this side of the House—on European
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social democracy, do we expect to find our friends in the future?
We have all lived nearly all our adult life, for the past 25 years, in a world of considerable Western cohesion. American commitment, indeed captaincy, has been inevitably the cornerstone. A great deal, perhaps the decisive contribution, was made by the key figures of the Attlee Government—Ernest Bevin and Stafford Cripps. There have been considerable benefits from this cohesion. The worst threats of the immediate post-war period have never materialised; there has been no major conflict. On the contrary a hesitant, encouraging move towards relief of tension in central Europe and between East and West has developed.
There has been a fair degree of stability and prosperity. That stability is now in greater danger of breaking up than for some time past. There is some United States disengagement. I never got quite as worried as some people about Senator McGovern's defence proposals, partly because I believe that President Nixon, if re-elected, will inevitably travel something of the same road. Confronted by the likelihood of a lessening United States commitment I could not, apart from my positive European convictions, break up cohesion in Europe, and treat lightly from a NATO point of view the prospect of failure of the summit or the development of a disorganised and disunited Europe which would be extremely menacing at present.
If this country refuses to go forward we do not now have the choice of remaining where we have been, of falling back on the Atlantic foreign policy which we have pursued, perhaps particularly under the two Labour Governments, for the past generation. We would find ourselves more isolated, more friendless, in a still dangerous world than for a long time past.
Nor do I find any reluctance to enter Europe in this country being accompanied by a wider world perspective. To take one example, there is an almost complete unawareness outside of professional diplomatic circles here that Russian relations with us have been extremely chilly for the past year, ever since the mass expulsion of the diplomat spies. The Soviet Government makes considerable efforts to get on with the Americans and ignores us whenever it can. We

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might at the very least be aware of that. Equally we have been unconcerned about the great Russian-Chinese rift. American opinion has been much concerned about how far it would go and whether it might even go as far as a pre-emptive nuclear strike by the Russians against China's nascent nuclear capacity, about where their interests lay and what the interests of the world were. This has passed over our heads.
Nor is it in any way balanced by our position in the Third World, the vital Indian sub-continent. Our influence has not been great and our contribution to UNCTAD III was, to say the least, undistinguished. There is not the beginning of evidence that if we detach ourselves from Europe we could find a new rôle elsewhere. I do not for one moment think that Europe is the only part of the world which counts but I think we are far more likely to exercise the influence we should, and which we need for our future, through Europe. I want that Europe to be stronger and more progressive than it has been hitherto. I want to seek this through co-operation with the other European Socialist parties. That is the only real alternative for us, as a party and as a nation, to a dangerous and isolated impotence.
5.20 p.m.
Mr. Neil Marten: Last week the Prime Minister was making a speech in which he said that there was great political merit in consistency. I must confess that when I listened to the reasons of the right hon. Member for Binning-ham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) for voting in favour of the Common Market on 28th October last and subsequently voting against Second Reading, Clause 2 and Third Reading, I found it a most difficult exercise to follow. There are some on this side who voted against entry on 28th October and who have consistently voted against it throughout. It was very hard for those people on this side to follow the rather tortuous arguments used by the right hon. Gentleman. He also said that he did not like the thought of re-opening the debate of 28th October. I would not expect any pro-Marketeer to like being reminded of some of those facts but that is precisely what I want to touch on in my remarks.
I am sorry that the Foreign Secretary is leaving the Chamber because I wanted
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to make some reference to his speech the other day at the Conservative Party Conference. At the conference I raised the question of the referendum and the Foreign Secretary in his very good-natured reply entirely misinterpreted my attitude because I had spoken in favour of a motion which was so neutral that it did not really add up to very much. The motion said:
"That this Conference urges her Majesty's Government to take positive initiatives in the Common Market."
I felt that I could almost support that because I hope that the Government will take positive initiatives if we go in. In his reply the Foreign Secretary said of me:
"He is now almost, he says, a supporter of this motion. Well, you have moved quite a long way since last year."
I want to say to him—I am sorry he has left—that he has got hold of entirely the wrong end of the stick. I have not budged one inch since last year. I believe that entry to the Common Market is fundamentally a wrong decision for this country and in saying that I am no "Little Englander", I am no right-winger.
It is fair to say that those sort of remarks, which have been made recently at the Conservative Party Conference at Blackpool, entirely misrepresent our views. They mean that the people who make those remarks and write those leading articles calling us "Little Englanders" have not done us the courtesy of trying to understand our arguments.
I want to deal first with the moral dilemma in which the Government find themselves and then with the question of how the facts on which the vote of 28th October last year was taken have changed fundamentally. On the moral dilemma point I refer to the question of the pledge solemnly given at the last election to reassure potential Conservative voters that when they voted Conservative they would not be bulldozed into the Common Market; the pledge was that we would not go in without the full-hearted consent of the people.
When we had the vote in Parliament only 56 per cent. of the Members voted in favour. That is not full-hearted and it is not the people. I question whether it

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is right to judge whether we have full-hearted consent of the people through a Parliamentary vote. Let us take the example of Norway. When its Parliament last voted on the issue of the Common Market 75 per cent. of its Members voted in favour of going in. When that same question was put to the people in a referendum—lucky people they were!— only 46 per cent. wanted to go in. In other words, Members of Parliament are not the machinery by which to judge whether the people of a country wish to enter. It is not a fair yardstick.
On every other occasion in the House, on all the votes we have had on the Common Market, we never again reached 50 per cent. of the House voting in favour of entry. Even if, for the sake of argument, we regard all those who think that the 56 per cent. vote is the full-hearted consent of Parliament, like Humpty-Dumpty in "Through the Looking Glass" when he said:
"When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
Those words "neither more nor less" are reminiscent! Is it not absurd by any rational standard to claim that a vote taken a year ago is valid today on this issue? The time to judge whether our proposition to go in has the full-hearted consent of the people is not a year ago; it is now, when everything is known and the matter is more or less wrapped up. We should say, "This is it", and put it to the people.
The reasons why things are now very different from what they were on 28th October are the well-known ones that, first, when that vote was taken the negotiations had not even been completed; secondly, we had not seen the details of the Treaty of Accession—and there are many doubtful aspects in that, particularly concerning New Zealand, Commonwealth sugar and fishing, which we are unhappy about: thirdly, we had not seen the European Communities Bill. That was a pretty bad start for that vote.
Let us take a quick look at what has changed since then. I remember the many debates I had throughout various parts of the country in what was called the great debate outside, when I debated on a platform with many hon.
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Members. Their great argument for going in was that our growth rate had been so poor and the growth rate in the Common Market had been so good that we had to go in to get the infection of that growth rate and get the same growth as the Common Market. That was a very strong argument used throughout the debate; I would say that it was the major argument. But let us look at the position 12 months later. Our annual growth rate is 5 per cent. and the Common Market's is 3–3½ per cent., so that argument, on which many of the votes on 28th October were cast, is no longer valid.
Then we were told that our standard of living was dropping behind terribly. Yet I heard my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer saying the other day that our standard of living was picking up by leaps and bounds, and I dare say that by now we have overtaken the Common Market in our standard of living.
We were told that it was no good relying on the Commonwealth, because the Commonwealth trade was declining and therefore we must look to Europe. That was a very strong argument too. But when we look at the facts since that vote we find that the Commonwealth, to quote the Financial Times,
"knocks the Common Market off the trade top spot".
So that argument has gone out of the window.
We were also told, "We must go in, because there is no alternative ", to which I used to reply, "We should be going for an industrial free trade area". I am no little European; I am a much wider free trader than that. We were told that there was no chance of an industrial free trade area, but look at what has happened since then. On 22nd July this year, precisely that happened. An industrial free trade area is available to those who do not join, and we could have it; so that argument has gone. The EFTA Bulletin sets the position out clearly. It is interesting to read the back page. We were always told that another big argument for joining the Common Market was that much more trade would be generated than was possible in EFTA. But EFTA has done a great study of

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that, and we find the statement to be totally untrue. The EFTA Bulletin says:
"In general, EFTA has … created relatively more trade between Member countries than the EEC and a higher proportion of the rise in total intra-area trade since 1959 was the result of the creation of a free trade area than in the EEC."
That shoots that argument down. We are beginning to have very little argument left for going in.
We were told, "Don't worry. There will be no loss of sovereignty if we go in." In the Chamber I see many of us who sat through the whole debate on the Committee stage of the Bill, who will now recognise that that statement was nonsense. We do lose a great amount of sovereignty, and this will bear upon the people of this country more and more as the years go by, and indeed, as the months go by.
We were given an estimate that food prices would rise by, I think, 16½ per cent. over the five years. But that cannot now be true, after we have floated the £ and various other things have happened. I am sure that the estimate of the rise in food prices must now be much greater than that, but the vote on 28th October was taken on the basis of only 16½ per cent. over five years.
Then, as we learnt when we saw the Treaty of Accession, the terms of use of the veto over fishing, New Zealand and Commonwealth sugar did not match up to what we had thought on 28th October.
We were told throughout the debate that there was no fear of federalism. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said it time and time again when questioned. But look at the way in which things are proposed to be developed in the Common Market. It is quite clear that there is great pressure to move towards federalism, which I know will please some hon. Members present. The vote was taken on no federalism, but clearly we are going headlong towards it.
The defence situation has altered. It is no fault of the Government, but in our election manifesto we said,
"We will continue to make our contribution to the forces of NATO and will seek to revitalise this organisation which is basic to the defence of Britain."
The very fact that the Norwegians have said, "No", to joining the Common
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Market changes the situation. Having recently been over there, I believe that the Norwegians will tend to move out of NATO into a neutralist Nordic bloc with Sweden and possibly Finland. That exposes the entire northern flank of NATO, so any of my hon. Friends who are passionately fond of supporting NATO and honouring that election pledge should surely urge that that matter at least be re-debated, and that we examine the problem in the House. That is where I disagree with the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford, who has, regrettably, left the chamber so soon after making his speech.
In view of all those examples it can be seen that it is the mentality of Humpty Dumpty to rely on the vote a year ago as the only justification for saying that entry has the full-hearted support of the people of this country.
What about the people? Let us just look at the opinion polls. I think that we can say that we have got over that little schoolboy attitude that nobody believes the opinion polls any more, because my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister quotes them at Question Time in support of his policies of going into the Common Market. We know from Robert Rhodes James's book on the last election how the Conservative Central Office relies very much on the trends of public opinion polls in studying people's reactions and so on. In opinion polls on the Common Market the only question that really matters is, "Are you or are you not in favour of going into the Common Market?", or, "Do you or do you not want to join the Common Market?". None of the other questions matter, because they are loaded, and that is the only straight question. The whole trend over the past six months has been one of declining support for the Common Market, something which the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford, implied in some of his remarks. He regretted that it was so. The last national opinion poll gave 51 per cent., a complete majority, against entry, with only 31 per cent. in favour. Eliminating the "Don't knows", as would happen in a referendum, we find that 62 per cent. of the people would vote against entry in a referendum.

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I have just received a breakdown of that poll by age groups. The only age group now which shows a slight majority in favour of entry is the 16–20 age group—in other words, sixth formers and people just leaving the sixth form. In the 21–24 age group only 37 per cent. want to go in, while 44 per cent. do not; in the 25–34 age group 34 per cent. are in favour of entry and 48 per cent. are not; and in the 35–44 age group the figures are 34 per cent. in favour and 52 per cent. against. Really, it is only the kiddies—I withdraw that remark and substitute "sixth formers and those who have just left school"—who are now in favour of going in. That is understandable, because the whole thing is at just about that level.
Mr. Eric Deakins: Could it be argued by proMarketeers in the House on the basis of the figures the hon. Gentleman has just given that if we wait long enough and the 16–20 age group keep their opinions as they grow older, in 30 or 40 years' time there may well be a majority of the British people who would favour retaining membership of the Common Market?
Mr. Marten: As they are British people, I think they will mature and that they, too, will learn. It is inevitable. Think of all the money being spent in schools to try and convert them to Europeanism. It appears to he the only place where it is working.
On the only evidence, the only yardstick available, there is a prima facie case—I say no more than that-that the proposition has not got the full-hearted consent of the people. Therefore, if entry goes ahead the implication will rightly stick that a major election pledge has been broken. That will be a very awkward matter to have on the conscience of my party. If the Government think I am wrong, as clearly they do—they must do, because they think they have the full-hearted support and that they are honouring our election pledge—how can they prove that to the people, so that at the next election we can say, "There is proof positive that we had the support of the country"? They can do it only by referendum.
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I suggested last April in an Amendment to the Bill that we should have a consultative referendum, but that was turned down. Now we shall have to have not a consultative referendum but a binding referendum, and that is what we should have.
It would have three advantages. First, it would overcome the feeling that the people have never been consulted. They feel now that they have been gagged, hi-jacked into the Common Market, to use an expression used by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) in his article in The Times. That is a very undesirable image for any political party, having given that pledge.
I went to Norway to observe the referendum there. I did not interfere in it or make any speeches while I was there. I was impressed by the people saying, "It's glorious being asked to participate in this historic decision. The Government trust us, they say that we are grown up enough to make up our own minds, and are giving us a chance to express our opinions." The people of this country have never had a chance to express them. At the last two elections the Conservative Party has been known to be in favour of entry, but so have the Labour Party and the Liberal Party, and there has been no opportunity to express a choice against entry. A referendum would enable the Government to march into Europe with their flags flying, firm in the view that they enjoy the burning enthusiasm of the British people. That is a very good reason by itself.
Thirdly—and I hope that the Labour Party will forgive my saying this—if the Labour Party is to renegotiate and then put the results to a referendum, surely it would be a good political move for the Conservative Party to put the present terms to the people in a referendum? As the people will obviously say, "Yes", the whole country will later be able to say, "We accepted the Tory terms anyway." Any pro-Marketeer—I see that there is one or one and a half behind me—should support that thesis and bring pressure to bear on the Government to have a referendum for that very purpose. If the people said, "Yes", here and now, there would be no more anxieties; and if

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the Labour Party returned to power the matter would be all finished. The people could be very happy about the whole thing.
The objection to the referendum was given to me very clearly at our party conference by my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary, who said:
"Let me, if I may, bury one body once and for all. A referendum is not in our constitution. The present Conservative Government has no intention of introducing it into our constitution and that is that."
He was on the Front Bench today when he heard my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland say that he would introduce a referendum into our constitution this year. Therefore, how can that argument possibly stand up? It was the only argument against the referendum presented at the conference. Of course that argument is now a non-argument.
It was not a constitutional necessity in Norway. It is not in that country's constitution to have a referendum, but the Norwegians had one nevertheless. We have a constitution which is very flexible. Moreover, we are now to have a referendum—the Northern Irish one, and so surely we could have one about the Common Market. There is no argument against it. Let us remember that Winston Churchill in 1945 proposed a referendum, that Baldwin in 1933 proposed a referendum; and three other Conservative Prime Ministers have proposed referenda. Are they unconstitutional? I cannot really believe it.
I hope the Government will have second thoughts and not be obstinate about this because it would be helpful if the whole country showed its enthusiasm for joining the Community. But if we do have the referendum it must be agreed beforehand between the three main political parties here in this country that whatever the result of the referendum there will be no question of the Government of the day resigning. I say that simply because that keeps party politics out of the vote; it keeps the vote in the referendum clear; the people vote "aye" or "no". An hon. Gentleman laughs, but I have seen party politics come into a referendum and when they do the votes get mixed up. We want to keep party politics out of this
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question and keep our eye on the subject under discussion, the subject of the vote. The easiest way to ensure that is to say that there will be no resignation by the Government even if the answer is "no". We did have a little to-do about that on Second Reading of the Bill—that if the Government did not get the Bill they would resign. I think that that must have been a slight aberration in the heat of the moment. I think it will not be said again.
I make no apology for returning to this subject because all my life I have been a Conservative and I hate to see this very clear election pledge possibly being broken by my party. If it is, it will not only be bad for my party but it will be thoroughly bad for British politics as a whole.
5.41 p.m.
Mr. Bert Oram: I am grateful for having caught your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in this debate. I can assure you and the House that I intend to speak only briefly. What I propose to do is to speak on one aspect and one aspect only of the summit talks. I refer to the relationship between the enlarged Community and the Third World. That is an aspect of this problem which I fear may not receive in this debate, or indeed in Paris, the priority which I believe it deserves. I noted with particular appreciation what my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) had to say on this point, as, indeed, the comments of the Foreign Secretary.
Since I intend to confine myself to this one subject and since the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) spoke on almost every other aspect of the problem, I hope he will excuse me if I do not attempt to follow his speech.
I have noticed that the developing world is a subject to which the Prime Minister often turns when he tries to elevate his speeches above the purely mundane. I am hoping that when he gets to Paris he will not regard this particular part of his brief as a subject merely for perorations because it is a field in which a good deal of tough bargaining on behalf of the developing countries lies ahead and one in which I believe a distinctive British impact can and should be made on the Community as a whole. We have a vast experience

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as a world Power; we have had a vast experience in terms of aid to developing countries, and I believe that we should bring that experience constructively to bear upon the decisions which will be made when we are a member of the Community.
Next year, 1973, is going to be a particularly important year in this respect. It is obviously going to be an extremely busy year for shaping the new relationships between the Community and the developing nations. First of all, negotiations will begin in August next year for new agreements to replace those of Yaounde and Arusha. Secondly, through. out the whole range of so-called associable members of the Commonwealth independent decisions will have to be taken by each country one by one about which particular option it wishes to take up, whether it wants to enter into the Yaounde type of association or the Arusha type of association or whether it will prefer to negotiate a trade agreement.
Then again, two years hence, 1974 sees the end of the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement and, therefore, next year will not be too soon for the Government to begin to reassert the claims of the Commonwealth sugar producers. Another thing which will happen next year will be that the international coffee agreement will be coming to an end, and in that field, and, indeed, in connection with a number of other basic commodities upon which the welfare of the developing countries depends, there will be in respect of those commodities a good deal of international negotiation and discussion.
Therefore I believe it is important that British spokesmen at the earliest opportunity, and Thursday of this week is not too early, should say what we in this country think should be done in these matters in the interests not just of Britain but of the Third World. I believe, for example, that we should make it clear that when the Yaounde and Arusha agreements come to be renegotiated we shall not be content with the mere linking up of the associable countries with the existing Yaounde and Arusha patterns of trade and aid.
We must make it clear that our view of the developing world is a very much wider one than the view as seen from
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Paris, or, indeed, the view as seen from Brussels. I have seen a publication issued by the Commission entitled "The EEC and the Developing World." It is a popular production and it is illustrated with a map, but not a map which includes India and Indonesia, on the one hand, and Peru and Ecuador on the other, but a map of Africa. That seems to be the view of the developing world from Brussels—or certainly from France. It is Africa, a Francophone Africa in particular. It may, therefore, be one of the tasks which the Prime Minister has when he goes to Paris to seek to cure this acute myopia from which President Pompidou seems to suffer in development polices.
We therefore need to make it clear in Paris and subsequently that when we in Britain think of the Third World we have in mind not just Africa, but that we think of Asia, particularly of the great Indian sub-continent with its vast needs for development, and that we think of Latin Ameria, too. We should hake it clear in other words that we take a global view of the needs of the Third World and not a narrow view which, so far, has been the view of the Community.
The basic needs of the Third World I think are pretty clear to all of us. The developing countries need to increase their export earnings in order to buy the tools of their development, and since there is a vast gap between what, on the one hand, they are now able to earn with their exports, and what, on the other hand, they need to buy for their development meantime, till they get into a position of earning more, they must be provided with financial aid to fill that gap.
It will be our task when we become members of the Community to urge upon our partners policies of aid and trade which are consistent with those objectives of the developing countries. I do not believe, as some do, that that is a hopeless task. It will be a difficult task, but it can and should be tackled constructively because much remains open for negotiation. I have listed the negotiations which will take place in 1973 alone. Much lies ahead of us in determining the relationship between the Community and the developing world. What was covered in the negotiations which led up to the Treaty of Accession

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was a vital part but only a small part of the vast task of policy-making between the members of the enlarged Community and of the developing countries.
If we in this country wish, as I hope we shall wish, to advocate progressive policies in these matters, it is not true to say that we shall be standing alone faced with obduracy from the stewards of a rich man's club. For instance, not long ago the Commission issued a statement on development policy. Far be it from me to say that it was a perfect document; it had many important defects. But it contained a great deal that was good, judged by proper standards of development criteria. Therefore, if we stand up for the right thing, we may well find some allies.
It is highly likely that the Germans and the Dutch will support us when we criticise, as we must, the limited geographical coverage of the Yaounde Convention. It will still be a limited coverage even if all the associable countries join in association. If we turn, as I favour, to commodity agreements as the means whereby developing countries can be assured a steady and fair price for their crops, we may well find the French more helpful in this sphere than we are likely to find them in other policy spheres.
I suggest therefore that we should not engage upon our tasks in Europe, certainly those concerning the developing countries, with any sense that the doors are barred, that all negotiations are behind us and that we shall find ourselves without partners if we seek to do the right thing. We can pursue the right policies in development matters with, I believe, a reasonable hope of success.
We would be able better to urge the right policies on our partners if we pursued them more wholeheartedly ourselves. Take the question of the European Development Fund. It has been estimated that the fund will need to be trebled if the aid needs of all the associable Commonwealth countries are to be met. I hope that we shall ensure that our contribution to the European Development Fund is not made at the expense of aid which at present goes to India, Ceylon and other countries. We must not rob them in order to make our contribution to the fund.
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However, if we want to ensure that no harm is done to aid-worthy countries outside the immediate entourage of the Community, greatly increased amounts of aid will be necessary, not only from us, but from our European partners. Can we ask for increased aid from Brussels or Paris when we, almost alone, have refused to accept the UNCTAD target of ·7 per cent. of gross national product as our official aid contribution by 1975? We must put our own house in order if we want to tell our neighbours how to organise theirs. Can we urge, as I hope we shall, that the aid operations financed by the European Development Fund should be much more widely spread throughout the world if we are seen to be reluctant to meet our international obligations through our bilateral aid programme? That is the position at the moment.
We should therefore boldly espouse progressive policies in aid and trade with the developing countries and be prepared at the summit, and later when we take our place within the Community, to give a lead. We should be prepared to initiate new policies and to innovate. If we do that, I believe that we shall have a helpful reception to our ideas. There is no doubt that we shall find ourselves up against stiff resistance to our point of view in some quarters, but we shall also find willing and powerful partners in working out liberal policies vis-à-vis the developing countries.
I recall that when Dr. Mansholt—I hope that it is legitimate to mention his name from these benches—some time ago produced a memorandum on the reform of agriculture in the EEC he made some constructive proposals in relation to sugar and vegetable oils. These two commodities are of special significance because producers of these commodities in developing countries find themselves in direct competition with producers in developed countries. Therefore, particular difficulties are to be faced in relation to these two commodities which overlap. so to speak, between developing economies and developed economies.
Dr. Mansholt proposed that a price policy for sugar and a beet production quota system should be introduced which would eliminate surpluses and thus save expenditure from the Guarantee Fund.

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In relation to oils, he introduced the concept of compensatory finance to developing countries which suffer a loss of export earnings as a result of levies under the common agricultural policy.
Time has passed since Dr. Mansholt put forward those ideas, but I raise them now because they indicate certain lines of thought for the future which can be useful. There are clues in these ideas to the development of policies for linking the levy system of the common agricultural policy with the provision of aid for developing countries through the European Development Fund. It will be perfectly possible, and perhaps surprisingly acceptable, if we make the claim that the increases in the Community budget to which Britain will be making such a hefty contribution in future should be used, not only for the re-structuring of agriculture and for regional and industrial policies, but also for the enhancement of aid to the developing world.
On Thursday the Prime Minister will be concerned with many other vitally important aspects of British membership of the European Community. He has had quite an agenda put before him this afternoon by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. Therefore, in the summit talks the Prime Minister has more than enough to contend with. I only hope that he will see his task in handling his brief and that agenda against the background of the other major international problems facing our generation. I believe that the greatest of these international problems is mankind's struggle against the massive problems of world poverty. It is my plea that in Paris that struggle will not be forgotten.
6.1 p.m.
Mr. Hugh Dykes: I hope that I shall not embarrass the hon. Member for East Ham, South (Mr. Oram) excessively if I say—there may be others on this side who will agree with this—that his words today were positive and refreshingly interesting in comparison with those of his hon. Friends in the debates hitherto, with a number of exceptions in the many ways distinguished speech of the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins).
The words of the hon. Member for East Ham, South were interesting, posi-
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five and refreshing because the hon. Gentleman got away completely from the shallow and superficial politicising which has characterised the stance of the Leader of the Opposition in this debate. This is true to such an extent that we come back repeatedly to the astonishing question: why is this debate on this subject being conducted at all in the House?
It ill behoves those members of the Opposition who wish to take a particular posture on this solemn subject—whatever their views were on previous occasions, but who now for some reason have decided to adopt this position—and it ill behoves some of my hon. Friends who make the same point, to say that the enthusiasm in the country or in Parliament for what has transpired this year by the passage of the Bill is diminished by an absence of hon. Members in the House today. The very reverse is the answer. This debate is not inspiring interest in the House today precisely and simply because all these arguments have been gone through again and again in the House and there is no merit in resuscitating them today.
That is why I especially condemn the shallow and superficial speech of the Leader of the Opposition for being devoid of any positive content and for—perhaps for the first time in the House in actual semantic terms—espousing a new generic explanation for the word "renegotiation", which now means, apparently, "the temporary philosophical reconciliation between the intelligentsia and the boilermakers within the Labour Party".
If the public yet again has the opportunity—we on this side should welcome it and not decry it—to see the contortions, the posturings, and the awkward expressions on the faces of members of the Opposition as they revive themselves with exhausted old arguments about how consistent they have been all the way through, the public itself will be able to judge, not only which party is better equipped and fitted to govern—this is an argument which can come later—but also, with its capacity for shrewdness and common sense, which would be well in evidence if there were more of the sensible members of the Labour Party present today on this subject, just what real issues are involved in the whole question of the European Communities Act and the

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vitally important summit meeting which is to take place.
I want to enunciate one or two thoughts and sentiments connected with the summit which I do not think were touched upon today in the speech with which the Leader of the Opposition sought to unite his own side more than to give any guidance to the nation.
I believe that the summit is important, not for any of those absurd, ridiculous, rhetorical and, indeed, knockabout 25 questions or phoney questions that the Leader of the Opposition put, but because the summit itself symbolises the accretion and the existence of the real power base within the Community with ourselves and the other new members coming together.
This is true to such an extent that the success of the summit, even in general terms or even if no precise details down to the minutiae of the discussions are eventually released to the public, which I believe would be wholly understandable and acceptable, is the vital kick off for what many hon. Members and large numbers of people throughout the country have been waiting for a long time to see, namely, the enlargement of the Community, the incipient realisation that the Community is still at an early stage despite all that has passed and, equally, despite the objections at the eleventh hour of the right hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore), who when he was in Government presided over a Department whose initials stood for " Deny everything afterwards".
Despite the eleventh hour objections of the right hon. Member for Stepney and those of his colleagues, a situation is developing in which the real debate about Europe can begin at long last with good will on both sides, as we go to the summit and ensuing meetings, not only at this level of Heads of State or Prime Minister, or a combination of both depending on the nations, but also at Foreign Minister level and Economic Minister level on ensuing occasions.
The key questions are, for example, European monetary integration and co-operation; just what influential powers or influential re-enforcement of powers will be given to the European Parliament in advance of any franchise, or what combination of extra powers will be given side by side with the idea of eventual
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direct franchise; the very question, as was rightly raised by the hon. Member for East Ham, South, of the Community's relationship with the under-developed world, and not only in the adherent territories; and the very important question, although outside this immediate debate, of defence and of security in Europe.
All these things were never by definition subsumed in the Bill which went through Parliament and which has now concluded all its stages, and none of these things can emerge until the passage of time allows it to do so. That is why my right hon. Friend was right to say that none of these is an event as yet. They will all be events in the future. They are the beginning of the unfolding of a process which will determine whether Europe is to be the outward looking, liberal, fair-minded, democratic, strong and collective institution which many hon. Members on this side and other people will hope to see in future.
That is, therefore, the important part of whatever begins to emerge in the summit discussion. It is not about the apologia for the Opposition's failure to unite themselves, as they could have done earlier much more easily if they had resisted the temptation to tie themselves up in intellectual and philosophical knots as they have done.
The summit is not about the natural doubts that are expressed—understandably—by housewives and other members of the community in Britain about the effects on the cost of living of entering Europe in a short-term way, although I sympathise and understand those fears to a great extent. It is not about that but about the long-term construction of a united Europe in which Britain's place is a reality. That seems to me to be the message that should, and I hope will, come out of whatever is discussed at the meeting that is about to take place.
But one comes back to the anxieties and fears that are held and expressed. I disagreed very strongly with my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) when he again brought out. as did others, all the tired old arguments. It is said that public opinion is dead against entry. I do not believe that for a moment. Nor do I believe, bearing in mind what has happened in the Labour

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Party and the curious exercise which took place in Blackpool before last week, and bearing in mind the difficulties felt by various hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite in reconciling their conflicting views, that the solution is the alien method of a referendum, which would not accord with our constitutional methods.
That method also means, leaving aside the political equations, that people who apparently say they are against going in are really expressing anxieties about the cost of living rather than about the central attractions and ideas of being part of an economic and eventually political united Europe in which all the member nations, with no exceptions, in a quite astonishing way, and all the populations are of one accord that the Common Market is not that wildly exciting thing many people feel it to be but a natural thing that people have come to accept because they see its economic and other benefits. That is the basis on which the future political discussion begins.
If this curious and abortive debate has done nothing more, it has shown up yet again the Labour Party's embarrassment both in the House and outside. One may sympathise with hon. Members' natural difficulties but that should not detract us from helping in the unfolding history of the country and its gradual and inevitable progress towards the European Economic Community.
6.14 p.m.
Mr. R. T. Paget: The hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) said that a plebiscite or referendum was contrary to our constitutional practice. I must ask him: which constitution? Is it the unwritten constitution dependent on the sovereignty of Parliament which we have enjoyed until now, or the new, written constitution, with a subordinate Parliament, which is being imposed on our people without consultation or without their having a chance to say "yea" or "nay"?
I am not an enthusiast for referenda but surely in this case some form of consultation of the people is demanded. Instead, this great debate is ending with a yawn. No one today is enthusiastic for Europe—that has gone. Instead, we find as a replacement a sort of reluctant
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acquiescence of the unconsulted. However, I propose not to go through the old arguments but to deal very briefly with two points.
For the first time in my life I see the value of our money in real danger. I had the inestimable privilege of sitting at the feet of the late Lord Keynes. I know that that makes me a very old man, and I am. I remember his explaining to us what happened to the Deutsch-mark when it collapsed after the First World War. I remember his telling us how all the bankers of Germany came to him, and to us at the Peace Conference, and the officials of Weimar saying over and over again: "There is no reason for this loss of value. All the conventional banking methods for the production of money have been complied with. There is no reason why these values should run away." But they did run away, and they ran away for the one simple reason that people no longer believed that that money would go on buying things.
It meant that for the wage-earner it did not become a question of a weekly pay day but of a daily pay day, and then it became two payments and then three payments per day, because if anyone kept his money for more than an hour it lost value. That money depreciated by several multiples every day until the point came when the shopping areas were cluttered with barrows carrying men's half-day's wages in order to buy goods This was what happened to a currency when confidence went. It happened, and confidence just ran away.
Now, as I say, for the first time in my life, I see that danger threatening us here today. The British people have lost confidence in sterling as an investment. Gilt-edged is now a gambling counter. It is regarded as thoroughly unsafe. Consols, which used to be the measure of our sterling solidity, are equally affected. On the other hand, goods have expanded wildly in value. Within the last six or seven months I have seen the value of agricultural land around me double and in some cases more than double. Land which was £250 an acre, and that was a very high price in my view, is now fetching £500. The same kind of thing is happening with houses. The same kind of thing is happening with works of art, with horses, with any

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alternative to money, because confidence in money is oozing out.
Mr. Macmillan brought the history of Britain as a great Power to an end when he told the Cabinet at the time of Suez that the £ was in danger and that we could not longer pursue an independent policy but, believe me, the £ was then in nothing like the danger in which it is today.
On any rational basis the £ should have been in far greater danger during the war. At that time we carried out a mobilisation larger than that achieved by any country in the history of the world. More people were engaged in the non-production of consumer goods—because that is what mobilisation means—and receiving wages without having anything on which they could spend those wages. We were having to sell all our world investments and borrow everywhere. But the value of sterling was retained, and it was retained by a simple and direct method—price control; a price control which was backed by the two essentials of a subsidy policy which provided an incentive adequate to call forth the production of the goods, and a rationing policy which meant a fair distribution of the goods produced. That kept the value of sterling.
Yet, faced today with the collapse of sterling, we are choosing at this moment to deny ourselves the means of protecting it. We cannot price control within the Market, and all this talk of the TUC and of the industries is nonsense. We cannot subsidise in the Market, which is a necessary aspect, and we cannot ration. We are at this very point when we need these defences most, denying ourselves the means of defending ourselves.
But I do not put this forward as my main objection. Germany has seen its currency collapse and recover again with a new currency. It is not a pleasant way but it is something we may have to go through and then recover from. But the one thing that I do not think that any country in the history of the world has done has been to recover from loss of will to defend itself. That is what I see in this. It is totally the opposite view on the question of defence to that taken by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins).
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This Common Market is a novel idea. It is best described as a conglomerate. It is something that we have become accustomed to in industry—this conglomeration of often disparate units in a new take-over association of great size; units which lose their identity, units which lose the kind of personal things that make units work and which are justified by a superior profitability.
In very much the same way, the Cornmon Market justifies itself by a superior capacity to profit—a capacity to get fat. That alone it has displayed. It has failed to display any of the personality of a new nation. It has utterly failed to display any will to defend itself. It has leant back under the guard of the American nuclear deterrent, and the credibility of that deterrent has gone. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Stechford that even after the threat of McGovern has gone, and even with the present American Administration, the threat of the deterrent is no longer there. The agreement reached with the Russians on nuclear armaments is an agreement between those two Powers that it will not be used—so that has gone. But what have we left in its place?
I remember the Lisbon meeting in 1952 when the Powers met to decide what was necessary for the defence of Europe. It was stated to be 50 divisions as a minimum, another 120 divisions to be available in so many days and the main force to be held behind the Rhine. That meant, none the less, a disparity in power, but even that minimum was never produced. Not a half, not a quarter of it was produced, partly because the Powers did not have the will to defend themselves and partly because the Germans were unwilling to provide the battlefield for that sort of strategy. Instead, we simply had a token force on the frontier which, not merely by reason of its size but by reason of the position to which it is committed, could not last three days if the Russians were to move. No one who knows the strategic position doubts that. Not three days could it last before it was in the bag. That is a power vacuum. This power vacuum exists because the Germans insist on a forward defence which everybody knows is unworkable; it exists because there is not the will to provide the alternative defence.

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We are now told that this will be reinforced by a European nuclear defence. This sort of obscurantist nonsense enrages me. "Nuclears" are not weapons of war; they are weapons of deterrent. They cannot be used in war. A deterrent has a passive as well as an active use. A nation deters and in turn is itself deterred. We must bear in mind the tiny nuclear capacity of Europe and the vulnerability of its cities. This vulnerability comes from the absence of that degree of protection which arises from distance.
Any force that we have is an utter irrelevance. In terms of deterrence a nuclear force is credible not for what it can do, not for what it can survive, but for its capacity to be able to deter. The United States could have used her "nuclears" and have said, "If you dare to reply, look at what is coming to you." The idea of "nuclears" has now gone, and to imagine that we can defend ourselves from them is a complete delusion.
Therefore, we find ourselves joining this conglomerate which has no will to defend itself, which has no intention of providing the ground troops, and which has thrown away the ethos of a deterrent which would be able to defend it. We are prepared to get fat as a power vacuum. The whole history of power vacuums is that people step into them. The history of Russia has been one of constantly moving into power vacuums.
The first to go will be the Germans. They will realise their helplessness. In Germany a number of "Unite the Fatherland" fronts are emerging. Those fronts and the Ost politik, even as we are seeing it today, will mean a united Germany under Eastern leadership, because it will be the Eastern end which will have the power. When that happens, it will be discovered that the working-class movements in France and Italy are Communist, too. We shall see this in a short time in Europe.
Those who will be independent in Europe and who will avoid this situation will be the Swiss, the Norwegians and the Swedes; in other words, they will be the people who have a total will to defend themselves—not by collecting "nuclears", but by making it abundantly plain that occupation of their territory would not be worthwhile, that every street would provide resistance and that every Russian
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who was stationed there would put his life in danger if he showed his face in the street. This is what will happen in those nations which are organised in terms of their own local defence and which retain the will and determination to remain free. On the other hand, a posture by a group of nations with four or five nuclear submarines is quite farcical.
Some say that this conglomerate will mean the end of Greco-Roman Christian civilisation. I do not believe that that will happen at this stage. However, I believe that it will mean the end of our island's independence. And that could still be saved.
6.30 p.m.
Mr. John P. Mackintosh: Having listened to the speech of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), for whom on a personal basis I have great respect, I feel like one of those people who set puzzles. We start with the proposition that we are forming a Common Market in Western Europe and end with the proposition that it is a Communist plot to subvert Western Europe. By what logical means do we proceed from proposition A to proposition B? I could not think of anybody who could have got through such a maze except my hon. and learned Friend. I will not follow him into the intricacies of this far-fetched, and indeed fantastic, argument. It is not an argument which is appreciated in the Soviet Union and the States in Western Europe would not accept his view of it.
I turn to the position as it stands in this debate. It has been a debate which has been distinguished by a superb speech from my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins), and we have heard a sound and helpful speech by my hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, South (Mr. Oram).
I begin by making a few comments on the posture of the Opposition on the whole question of renegotiation and what this means. I accept my right hon. Friend's point that if renegotiation means development of the Common Market policies in certain directions, and if those directions involve the sort of regional, social and industrial policies to which we on this side of the House are committed, then the gap between the concept of

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renegotiation and the view of the Labour Party pro-Europeans would not be wide. I accept that, but I do not think it is exactly what the official statement of the Labour Party Executive means. I believe that we should look at this statement to see what it means and I also believe that people in politics should mean what they say.
Although I am not a populist on the referendum issue, I do not believe that in politics one should say one thing and mean another, or that one should say one thing in order to give oneself freedom to go in a different way if and when one needs to do so. Part of the cynicism in the current popular attitudes to politics is a product of this sort of activity, and it is therefore best that if one means something one should say so.
What do we find in the resolution passed at the Labour Party Conference? We find framed in fairly strong language a commitment, or so it would appear, to renegotiate. The National Executive statement says that renegotiation will be done
" … because Britain will use the power of veto on all Community developments until a new treaty is written."
One of the other resolutions passed at the conference went further. It said that Britain would pull out of her financial commitments and associations with the Common Market until there was a new treaty and a complete renegotiation.
I wish to consider whether this type of renegotiation is likely to succeed in any way that can be envisaged at the moment. The conditions laid down in these statements and resolutions on renegotiation involve sweeping changes in the structure and approach of the Common Market. They envisage, for example, wholesale changes in common agricultural policy; they want a large change in the method of financing the Market; they want sweeping changes in the whole approach to monetary and economic matters in Europe.
Mr. Dennis Skinner: "We", not "they".
Mr. Mackintosh: This is the official view of the party, a view which I am seeking to explain. What they are saying is that it will be possible, at some point in 1974 or 1975, by the use of this type
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of power pressure to get the Common Market changed into a different sort of animal from that which it now is. This is the sort of sweeping change the resolutions want to see. Instead of the Market being dedicated to closer union on wider and wider fronts, including foreign policy and economic and monetary union, they envisage that it should become a much more restricted organisation—in other words, that it should be merely a free trade area. They envisage that the countries contained within it should not draw closer together or amalgamate in the way in which Brandt, Pompidou, the Prime Minister and other leaders in the Market are at present tending towards.
This is official Labour policy, and we have to consider whether it is feasible that this could be carried out in two or two and a half years' time as and when the occasion arises. It could be feasible in one set of circumstances. It would be feasible if the member States of the Community decided, within the next two and a half years, that their experience of the enlarged Community was so unsatisfactory that they wished to give up the whole drive and direction on which the Common Market has been moving in the 15 years of its existence. It would be feasible only if they wanted to pack up the EEC in its present form and set up a loose, free trade area association.
Is there any evidence that in the next two and a half years such a change of heart will take place among the member States of the enlarged Community? I suggest that at present all the evidence points in the opposite direction. The present avowed intention of the nine member States is to increase the cohesion of the Community and to draw more closely together. Even the French are agreeing to amalgamate their foreign policy more closely with the Common policy in the other Common Market countries. They are thinking of a monetary and economic union.
The present Government are demanding effective regional policies, and if we look at what is happening outside the EEC, the policies of other countries are having the same effect. The interesting thing in terms of foreign policy is that the various Foreign Offices are being pushed into working together in Europe because the Russians and the Americans are speaking directly to each other over

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the heads of the European Powers. If the European Powers are to work together in a security conference with the Soviet Union next year, they must agree on a common line. They must speak together and they may also have to do so in terms of burden-sharing and financial matters in dealing with the United States.
An interesting situation has developed in the Near East where the Russians have been expelled by the Egyptians. The Egyptian Government has come to Europe, not to Britain, France, or Germany to come in as make-weight, but to ask whether Europe collectively will do something to fill the power vacuum which has been left by the Russian pullout or expulsion from Egypt. All the internal forces of the member States of the Community and the external forces of world events are pushing the member States in the next two-and-a-half years to co-operate more closely and to make a success of the enlarged Community—a Community which they have struggled so hard to build up.
Faced with this situation, is it likely that a British Government coming to power in October, 1974, or June, 1975, will find the Community willing to say, "Yes, you were quite right. The whole concept we have been trying to set up is wrong"? Would they be likely to accept the kind of proposals inherent in a renegotiation, including all the safeguard clauses which were contained in the National Executive statement put before the recent Labour Party Conference? Surely all the evidence shows that the Community would not do so for one moment. The idea that we would have a special strength and could force the European nations, against their will, to alter the character of the Common Market so as to retain Britain as a member is extremely unlikely. In effect, we are saying that they would be so afraid of losing Britain's membership that they would be willing to change the nature of the Community they are running. Is this likely? Why should they do this?
We must remember that the Community of Six got along without Britain. Indeed, they got along so well that some of them were dubious about our joining.
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If we intend to say, "We shall withdraw unless you change the nature of the Community", is it likely that they will say, "Yes, of course we will change it." Is it likely that they would agree to change the form of the Community, that they would give up the idea of economic and social union, and the freedom to amalgamate in foreign and other policies? Is this a credible bargaining position? I do not think it is for one moment.
If we were to go through with these proposals, we would be faced with one simple question: do you wish to remain within the Community and to see it go in a certain direction, or do you wish to pull out? That will be the alternative, and it is as well that we should face it.
I believe that it is fundamentally wrong, first, for any party to try to say now, precisely and decisively, what it would do two years hence in its foreign policy. To try to bind itself in that way is entirely wrong. Second, all the evidence suggests that, when we face that situation in two or two-and-a-half years, there will be no question of going back to square one. It will not be possible to revive EFTA. It will not be possible to go back to the Commonwealth preferences they will have been reallocated and Commonwealth trading patterns will have altered over that two-and-a-half years. Moreover, as I have said, America and Russia are, and will be, speaking more often to each other directly, without intermediaries.
Thus, the position we shall face is that Europe will have co-operated for twoand-a-half years, and the Commonwealth will have disintegrated further even than it has today. Could Britain, as it is argued, pull out and stand apart by itself in total isolation in such a situation?
I do not think that any Government who had the interests of this country at heart would seriously contemplate such a step, and it is even less satisfactory to suggest that a party could bind itself to such a sten as of now, two-and-a-half years before reaching that point.
It is worth spending a little time on this matter. I think that the renegotiation proposals can either mean pressure to develop the Market from within, which, we hope, would be normal policy for any

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British Government, or they mean something much more drastic and more dangerous for the future of this country. I tell the House frankly that I cannot take the latter proposition seriously as a future policy of any responsible Government. I cannot, therefore, see other countries taking it seriously as a standpoint, and accordingly they had treated such a suggestion with the measure of reserve which I think it deserves.
I turn now to the coming summit meeting and the stance which, we hope, the British Government will adopt when they go there. Clearly, at the summit we have to make a case. The interesting fact now about the Common Market—this follows from what I said earlier—is that in a Community of nine no one country is as powerful as each of the major countries was in a Community of six. Interestingly enough, the French have now realised that their position is decisively weaker in a Community of nine. In a Community of six, they could, and did, play the card—"Without us the thing is finished". They played that card in 1965 with the policy of the empty chair, saying, in effect, "If certain things go through, France might even pull out of the Community". This was a serious threat at that time. I do not think that it is as serious, or, indeed, a serious threat now because the Community of nine could survive without any one major State if any member tried such strong-arm tactics.
Matters will have to be treated seriously in negotiation, and I hope that they will be. First on the agenda I put the modification of the common agricultural policy. My impression is that each one of the member States is unhappy about aspects of that policy, and each is hoping that British entry will in some sense produce pressure towards change. But it will be a gradual change. This policy was built up over 11 years. It involved package deals in which non-agricultural quid pro quos were given for agricultural gains by certain member States. It cannot easily be altered. Let us start by saying that we should like to see no further increases in agricultural prices in Europe. In reality there might have to be small increases, but the increases should lag behind the inflation rate. Then the level of inflation would in time restore a more realistic price level.
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Second, we ought to say that the Mansholt plan for using money for structural change in European agriculture, which means paying farmers to be more efficient, is basically wrong in the sense that the more efficient they are the more they produce, and the more they produce the more they contribute to the surpluses. We do not want to give farmers money to amalgamate in order to be more efficient in an already largely self-sufficient Europe. We should ask that the structural money be spent on alternative jobs outside agriculture in the agricultural areas, to help attract people out of agriculture and to speed the process of leaving the land which is already going ahead rapidly in Europe.
Thus, the form of the common agricultural policy, by holding prices and by structural change offering job alternatives in the agricultural areas, is linked with a positive regional policy. One of the most encouraging things I have heard in this debate was the Foreign Secretary's statement that we should proceed, as the countries have proceeded in all the Common Market negotiations in the past, by putting a date on this process. We want agreement on a regional policy and a date-line by which it should be produced. This is the traditional method used, forcing countries up against the need to reach a decision and get together.
I hope that we tie our regional policy not merely to unemployment but also to depopulation and the declining rural areas. I represent such an area, and I realise that the Foreign Secretary knows the problems of such areas. There has been a tendency in Britain to link regional policy too closely to declining industrial areas. We have to meet the European situation as well as aspects of the British situation.
On industrial policy, we should reduce non-tariff barriers to trade and try to reach the possibility of industrial linkages throughout Europe so that we have the benefit of the extra investment that we want.
On the question of the institutions, I shall say nothing about the need for a more effective approach to the underdeveloped countries and the Third World, since that aspect of the matter was so powerfully dealt with by my hon. Friend

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the Member for East Ham, South, but I shall say a word directly about the European institutions. I was a little disappointed when the Foreign Secretary said that the British Government would, at the summit, take the line that we ought to be members of the European institutions and have experience of them before proposing any changes. I had hoped that we should move a little faster than that. I should think it a pity if we did not press the recommendations of the Vedel Report for more powers for the European Parliament—actually, more work for it to do. Implementation of these recommendations would be a step forward, and not to do so would be a disappointment for the countries of Europe which collaborated to bring forward the Vedel Report.
We have, I think, made a great contribution with our two superb nominations as Commissioners. I hope that we shall follow this up by ensuring that the Commission has a good planning unit. able to push forward in the direction of positive opportunities for Europe.
As regards the Council of Ministers, I hope that we shall agree at the summit on a set of proposals to cover, let us say, two years ahead, and that, when we agree at the summit on the direction of change in agricultural policy, regional policy and industrial policy, we shall then say to the Council of Ministers that everything agreed upon at the summit must automatically or readily be accepted by the Council. There must not be renewed argument and delay of nine months or a year about each item as it comes up.
At this summit, we shall have the chance of writing a kind of Queen's Speech for Europe, a setting of directions, and we should put behind it, as a new participating member, our energy and enthusiasm. This country is now committed to entry, and we want to see it a success. If it is not, if it is a disaster, the kind of renegotiation proposals of which we have heard in the official Labour Party conference resolutions will then become feasible. But if it is a success—I hope that it is—it will, I believe, be in the interests of this country to remain permanently part of the Community.
6.47 p.m.
Mr. John Loveridge: The House always hears the hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh) speaking on the Common Market, with deep and intense interest. His enthusiasm and leadership inspire us, and I hope that they will inspire the Prime Minister when he goes to the summit.
Europe may not yet be ready for a grand design. There are those who feel that there must be time to wait and see how the addition of the three new members affects its progress. Yet we must, surely, look ahead to a grander design, for our own safety and strength; and it is up to Britain, perhaps the strongest nation of the nine, to set a lead and to demonstrate the will that Europe ought to have to defend herself. In the meantime, however, while that will is growing. the old alliances upon which our lives and safety depend must be held together.
First, the Prime Minister must say to our friends in Europe that they ought not to make life more difficult for the United States of America, that they ought not to force confrontation with her. For example, there are vast sums of floating dollars, almost unwanted, built up in the last two years in the central banks of Europe. We know that the French would like to see a sharp rise in the price of gold. Here, surely, is a point at which Britain can set a lead for a compromise between the rival views.
We want to keep the United States troops committed to Europe for the foreseeable future upon a substantial scale. It is only reasonable that we Europeans should try to help the United States in her economic difficulties just as she helped Europe in her hour of need. It is important to remember these factors as we get together for the vital European security conference which we hope will be held shortly.
Secondly, we should encourage the link between the NATO powers and France. Europe has experienced the damage of the new pirates, the international terrorists. We must get together to increase our defences against such terrorists as their own power, purpose and unanimity, even in the different anarchist views which they

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put forward, is strengthened. It is foreseeable that terrorists might act on a much larger scale in future.
We should therefore interest France and the European powers in the safety of the Southern seas. At any time there are more than 1,000 European ships sailing east of Suez. Such ships are a natural target for international terrorism. How easy it would be to mine the paths of the great tankers bringing oil to Europe. We must hope that the Prime Minister will inspire our friends in Europe to spend more upon defence to protect Europe's vital supply lines. In the long term there will be a need to strengthen nuclear arms as well, but it would be folly to think that our deterrent, or the French nuclear deterrent, could keep us safe without the help of the United States. In the long term we must plan to do more for our nuclear safety ourselves against the prospect that one day there might be a change in the policy of a future United States Government. In the meantime, to stick together is the surest safe way for survival.
The third aspect which the Prime Minister should speak about is the common basis upon which we should work with the other eight Powers towards a monetary and economic policy which we can all share. This country is in a situation where the old policy of buying food in the cheapest market has gone. Therefore, it would be wise to try to ensure that there are not extra cash outflows across the currency barriers between ourselves and Europe in order to import Europe's more expensive foodstuffs, thus providing us with a deficit on our balance of payments. A monetary agreement aiming for fixed parities between the European powers would greatly strengthen us in that respect. However, such a policy can be practical only in the context of a shared economic policy. We also need an investment policy which is fair in relation to the demand and capacity of the different parts of Europe. When such a common basis between the European powers has been arrived at, it will then be possible to make fair arrangements with the United States, Japan and other parts of the world.
The fourth aspect which the Prime Minister should consider and speak about is the help which should be given to the
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poorer nations. Their desperate need is not only for more trade but also for more stable prices for the goods which they sell. It is up to the richer nations to ensure that the poorer nations can get reasonably stable prices for their products. That is not impossible on the basis of such a large community as the future European Community.
Fifthly, there are Europe's own poor. It is reasonable to think that, as in the past the policy of the European budget helped France and her agriculture, future increases voted for the European budget should provide for greater payments towards the required development in Europe. There is no reason to think that France is unequal to agreeing to such a future policy.
Sixthly, there is parliamentary control. Most of us feel that it will be in the far distant future before the European Parliament can provide any effective measure of control over the working of the Commission, and even longer before it can affect the Council of Ministers. It is from the national identities of Europe that Europe's heritage in art, culture and industry have sprung. There is no reason why the national parliaments cannot provide a real measure of control upon proposals issuing from the Commission or the Council of Ministers. For that to be possible and to be effective the necessary information must flow from the first. Discussions must not take place behind closed doors, otherwise we shall find ourselves meeting accomplished fact after accomplished fact when what in reality we need is to discuss proposals as they emerge.
The Prime Minister should stress to his colleagues the need for open talking and early information if the parliaments of Europe are to be able to debate and question proposals which are put forward. It is here that Britain can give an example of leadership. Britain has surely in this House given such an example to the world throughout long years of history. Now is our opportunity to lead any action by asking the Europeans to provide the information in good time so that the democratic process of Parliament can be effective. There are many who have thought that we should wait and see in Europe before moving forward. However, the world is so dangerous that we cannot afford for long to wait and see. I

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ask the Prime Minister to take with him in good measure the courage in his heart, as I am sure he will, and to set a lead for Europe and the world.
6.58 p.m.
Mr. Tom Ellis: I was glad to hear the hon. Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Loveridge) refer to economic and monetary policy, because I want briefly to deal with one aspect of that policy.
I accept that on the first day of 1973 Britain will enter the EEC. That might not appear to be a startling observation, but having listened to some speeches I think that it is well worth saying. I intend to direct my energies, such as they are worth, towards helping to achieve the EEC which I want to see. I was heartened to hear the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) when he spoke of the state of flux facing the Community and the opportunity which is presenting itself to us to have situations changed and moulded to our desires. My hon. Friend the Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh) made the point in a different way when he spoke about accepting the policies of successive British Governments with a certain scepticism.
The EEC is committed if words mean what they say and if communiqués reflect faithfully the intentions of those parties who issue communiqués, to monetary and economic union. I put "monetary" and "economic" in that order because the pressures which are developing in that direction have come largely from monetary affairs. For example, international financial developments in recent months have been unsettling and unnerving. I was glad to hear my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) speak so eloquently about the situation facing sterling. He supports largely what I have just said about the unnerving aspect of international finance. Pressures are coming from there, and it seems to me that there is an increasing awareness of the economic gains arising from greater certainty in commercial transactions across inter-Community national boundaries.
However, I saw in The Guardian today a report that a little cooling off seems to
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be taking place in that one hears talk of a readiness for a little flexibility on the way to achieving fixed parities. The £, we were given to understand some months ago, had its deadline set at least for 1st January next. Now we hear from Brussels that there is talk of fixed but flexible rates for a period, with the flexibility being exercised if necessary at very frequent intervals. I suppose this reflects a sense of realism beginning to manifest itself. I welcome it because, as fervently as I would like to see not only monetary and economic union but full political integration—I may be in very much of a minority in that respect—I think it would be absurd to attempt to have fixed parities at one jump without a number of other important preconditions being agreed to. I want therefore to say something about what I consider to be the most important of them—regional development.
Last week I spoke to the headmaster of the village school in Merionethshire, where my parents-in-law reside. He told me that eight years ago when he became headmaster, there were 250 pupils on the register. This term he has 138. I suppose that if the trend of the past eight years continues for the next eight years, he will then have 70 pupils on the register. That is one illustration in Merionethshire. There are many others. For example, there is great controversy in parts of Wales about people purchasing holiday homes which are empty for a large part of the year, to the consequent disruption of the life of the village.
Our regional policies over the past years have failed. I know that some Governments perhaps have failed more miserably than others, but it is true to say that by and large we have not yet succeeded in having an effective and meaningful regional development policy in this country. This concern of mine with regional development might appear to many Britishers as an important and pragmatic concern, but to a Welshman, or at least to a Welsman like myself, it means a concern for my people, for my language, for my way of life, for my culture. It is a concern for a way of life which slowly but surely in present circumstances is being erased from the map of Wales.
I am not so concerned about my political sovereignty because I lost that in 1282 when Llewelyn the Last was killed, and

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700 years has been long enough for me to get used to doing without political sovereignty. I dare say that the Irish, who regained political sovereignty 50 years ago have found their regional problems just as intractable with it. They, like Wales, have a high proportion of their national product coming from industries which are declining and without growth potential, and their problem, too, is to have resources transferred from those industries to industries of increasing productivity and also, of equal importance, into their economic infrastructure.
On the other hand, there are areas like West Germany where the economic situation is very different. I suppose it is possible to summarise and to say that, on the one hand, we have a predominantly cost-push type of inflationary situation and, on the other hand, a demand-pull type, all within the same uniform ambience of increasing expectations.
At present, of course, Governments attempt more or less successfully to control the respective inflationary tendencies of their countries by corrective policies for credit, taxation and exchange rates. Clearly, monetary integration, which will limit substantially the scope of a Government for discretionary corrective action, will tend to aggravate regional economic disparities within the Community unless substantial intra-Community capital transfers take place. These are the pressures, arising essentially from monetary influences, which it seems to me are setting the pattern for future developments in the Community. Thus, if a monetary union is established, the task of evening out the effects on growth and employment of the different propensities to inflation within the Community falls on capital transfers.
Genuine progress towards monetary integration requires a narrowing of the disparities in the various propensities to inflate of the individual countries and regions of countries. Viewed in this light, capital transfers are the best way towards monetary integration because, employed productively under a well-conceived policy for the Community as a whole, they will gradually redress the persistent structural imbalances which are at the root of the trouble. So one can claim that regional policy based on intra-Community capital transfers, and developed within the context of effective
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overall economic and monetary planning at the Community level, emerges as the cornerstone of economic and monetary union.
I for one hope that the summit meeting will end with a clear-cut reiteration of a commitment not only to European economic and monetary union but also to the consequential requirements in planning and interventionism. Without rapid progress in this direction, I hold out no more hope for my Merioneth school than under our present arrangements.
7.8 p.m.
Dr. Alan Glyn: One of the first items of business for the House today was Mr. Speaker's announcement of the Royal Assent to the European Communities Act. As I see it, this is the final stage which Parliament and the country have to go through before the Act becomes effective, and I believe that the debate should not be a rehearsal of the old arguments for and against entry but a look towards the future, thinking how we want to play our part in Europe and how we as a nation can best use our influence to create a united and well defended Europe, a Europe which can also be of great assistance to the weaker nations.
I have not had the privilege of speaking in any of these debates before, and I state now my firm belief that when we came to the decision we had no real alternative but to joint the E.E.C. The pattern of trade throughout the world, our relations with the Commonwealth countries and their own developments had all made it virtually impossible for us to seek our markets in any part of the world except in Europe. I want to speak briefly on the question of how, when we enter Europe, we shall be able to help ourselves and our partners.
The Leader of the Opposition spoke of the possibility of renegotiation of the treaty. But we must surely all appreciate that after the next two years of this Parliament, during which Britain will be a member of the Community, it will be almost impossible to renegotiate the treaty, except as a member of the Community from the inside of that organisation. By then our Commonwealth partners will have reshaped their own trade; and altered the whole pattern of their trade. We can never go back to

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where we started from originally. The only possibility is for us to use our influence within the European Community to make those changes that we believe to be right for our nation and right for Europe.
In the negotiations my right hon. Friends have achieved tremendous concessions already for our Commonwealth partners, but it is only right that at the forthcoming conference it should be made clear to our European partners that we still feel close ties with the Common. wealth and that those ties will remain, even though the pattern of trade may change as a result of our entry into the Community.
Sooner or later, the whole issue of the common agricultural policy will have to be considered. I make no apology for being pro-Europe, but that does not prevent my thinking that there are many things in Europe that we shall have to alter, and I am certain that our European partners will see the force of the arguments that we shall present for making those changes.
I divide the advantages of entering Europe into two—commercial and defence. All that need be said now about the commercial side is that Europe is where our trade lies and that this country has the ability and the know-how and strength to make a success of joining. We shall be able to show our European partners that we can compete and that as a nation we shall be able to do well and to raise the standard of living of our people.
Sterling has been mentioned by a number of Members. Its whole position as a reserve currency has completely altered since the war. With our entry into a larger community with greater fiscal and financial resources, sterling will be made more stable and even stronger.
I know that our finance houses will do well. London will probably remain the centre of world markets. We already have tremendous control. The other day I was looking at figures showing investments in France and I was surprised to find how high in the league we were for the amount of money invested in some of the larger companies. That is a little known fact. We now have the
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ability to invest in a much larger market and that will bring a great benefit to our people.
What sort of Europe do we want? What are we looking for? It is a Europe able to offer us and our partners commercial strength, with an ability to increase the standard of living of all the nations within the Community while being a unit strong enough to pay for its own defence, which I believe to he fundamental.
Of course present arrangements are not perfect. I like many other hon. Members have considerable misgivings about the powers of the Commission. This is a subject which may well be developed at the forthcoming conference.
The Commission is a body of civil servants, and many people would regard it as having far too much control over European affairs. That is a view that I share. But there is no reason why we should not exercise our influence and advocate our view that it is the European Parliament that should have control not the Commission. I shall not go through all the arguments because we all know them and we are all aware of the powers of the Commission and the powers of the European Parliament. It is up to us to say that in this country we have a system which is democratic control by Parliament and that it has advantages.
I hope that one of the views that my right hon. Friend will press will be that the European Parliament should have more control over the affairs of Europe and that it should not all be left to the decisions of the civil servants with Parliament able to say only "Yea" or "Nay" to their decisions. There must be more democratic debate and decisions should be made by the European Parliament and not the Commission.
I, too, have been extraordinarily worried about the defence of Western Europe. I hope that when we enter the Community we shall slowly be able to bring France back into NATO. There are already signs of the movement in that direction, but I do not believe that we will achieve the change overnight. The wooing of France back to NATO may be a long process, but it is extremely important because, as the right hon.

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Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) said, there is a real chance that America will not necessarily withdraw from Europe but will at least reduce its financial commitment to the defence of Europe. At that point we shall find it extremely difficult to pay for a replacement of Polaris or whatever weapon we shall then require.
I am convinced that it is the duty of Europe to take a greater share of the burden of defence. If America does not help, this country can no longer afford to continue the heavy burden of having a nuclear deterrent. If we are in Europe, there will be the funds available to pool resources to get a proper balance of conventional and nuclear forces.
We are going through a period of one of the greatest changes in the balance of power to have happened for a long time—recognition of China, the relationship between America, mainland China, and Japan. The balance of power between Russia and China has completely altered. That is another reason for our being part of a strong defence unit. Russia has always been worried about her 2,000-mile frontier, and it is by no means inconceivable that Russia might decide to destroy the atomic plant in Sinkiang, which is an odd sort of province in China but not exactly Chinese. Nevertheless, it would completely alter the balance of power in the Far East.
All these changes of power make me believe that it is essential that Europe has a credible defence properly equipped with a nuclear deterrent. Other possibilities include the uniting of China and Russia. Whatever happens and whatever way Japan goes, the changes in power are rapid and the only stability for us lies with our real allies in Western Europe and America.
I hope that both parties in the House will forget the past and will work together and will send to Europe the best parliamentary brains that we have. Let us show Europe that we have parliamentarians not only as good as but better than those of any other nation. We should he sending our best parliamentarians to enhance the reputation of Parliament here.
If we are to work together for a united and strong Europe, where defence is regarded as important, we must all work
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to raise the standard of living for the people of our own country and for the people of our partner nations so that as a financially strong commercially well-placed and well-defended bloc, our country is able to use its influence not only to help the poorer nations, but as a great Power in the world, to bring peace and prosperity to the world for at least the next half-century if not for posterity.
7.19 p.m.
Mr. Raphael Tuck: I am sure that the hon. Member for Windsor (Dr. Glyn) will forgive me if I do not comment on what he said, for I disagree with him. He has advanced cogent arguments for entering the Common Market and I have strong arguments against doing so, but they have all been made in previous debates and I shall not go into them now.
I have risen to explain why in my view this summit is a non-starter, a non-event, for the United Kingdom. Some time ago I asked my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition to make it clear that, because the people of the United Kingdom had not been consulted, when the Labour Government returned to power he would regard this signing of the treaty as null and void. He has not gone as far as that but he has said that he will renegotiate the treaty entirely. The summit meeting, will, in my submission, be a non-event because the British people have not been consulted and their view has not been sought. I agree that—as has been pointed out in this House—a referendum is not part of our constitution, but neither is entry into the EEC It is a complete departure from our constitution and our very way of life. It is a unique and unprecedented step in the history of this country, and because it is such a departure from our way of life, the British people should have been given the opportunity to express their views.
In his pre-election speeches the Prime Minister said that his sole commitment was
"to negotiate; no more, no less".
I am sure he has not the face to say that to negotiate means to sign a firm contract which will be irrevocable. Similarly, he said that it would be unthinkable for the United Kingdom to join the Common Market unless its entry had the "full-hearted support " of the

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British Parliament and people. Again, I do not think he would have the face to say that a majority of eight on Second Reading—or even 112 on 28th October in favour of the principle of entry—amounted to the full-hearted consent of Parliament, much less of the people who have not been consulted at all.
The Prime Minister has therefore betrayed the people of this country. May I remind him that he is following in the footsteps of one of his predecessors, Mr. Stanley Baldwin. In the mid-1930s the Abyssinian war was in progress and Mr. Baldwin and his Government wanted the Italians to win. The British people wanted the Abyssinians to triumph. He realised that the only way to appease the electorate was to put sanctions on Italy but he knew that if sanctions ran until the General Election in the autumn Italy would lose the war. He also knew that if he did not impose sanctions he would lose the General Election. He therefore imposed sanctions on Italy and advanced the date of the General Election. He went before the electorate saying that he had imposed sanctions, and on that he was re-elected. He then immediately removed the sanctions, and Italy won the war.
That was not the only time he told the electorate one thing and did another. I was upstairs in the gallery as a young man on one occasion when Mr. Churchill flayed Mr. Baldwin for this. He asked why Mr. Baldwin had told the electorate one thing and did something else. Mr. Baldwin rose and said blandly, "Well, if I had really told the electorate what I was going to do I would never have got into Parliament."
I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Secretary of State for Wales who is now on the Front Bench will tell the Prime Minister that if he had really told the electorate what he was going to do he would never have got into Parliament. I solemnly warn him that whether the General Election comes this year or next or after that, the people of the United Kingdom will not forgive his perfidy.
7.24 p.m.
Mr. Anthony Fell: I fear only too much that there was an element of truth in what the hon. Member for
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Watford (Mr. Raphael Tuck) has just said. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Dr. Glyn) on having made a most reasonable speech and on having kept the tone very low. It is perhaps as difficult to be generous in victory as it is to be generous in defeat. He said that when negotiations began with the Common Market there was nowhere else for us to turn for increased business. That is just the sort of remark which is often thrown in the air and which is latched on to by people.
I remind my hon. Friend that 11 years ago when this horror started I was rude to the then Prime Minister on this issue not because I enjoyed being rude to the leader of my party, not because I particularly enjoyed making a scene, but because I had been brought up in the Commonwealth. I was educated and reared in New Zealand and I knew how the Commonwealth worked and what Britain meant to the people out there. I could see that the moment we spoke about going into Europe every Commonwealth country perforce would have to consider its trading position and rush around looking for markets to replace those which might be lost if Britain joined the Common Market.
In those 11 years we succeeded beyond our dreams in Europe. We enjoyed enormous success in developing trade with the EFTA countries. There was enormous success and the world was open to us to trade wherever we wished, reaching trading agreements with whoever we liked. But we shall not now be able to do just what we like.
My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor must believe that the Common Market will work for us. Of course, he is right to appeal to hon. Members now that the dreadful day has come and is almost over to do everything they can to make the adventure into Europe as great a success as possible. I am sure that most hon. Members will respond to his appeal.
I do not often say much about my constituency. I do not try to introduce the subject into my speeches just because it is my constituency unless there is a definite point pertaining to it in the subject under discussion. But this evening I shall mention briefly the East Coast port of Yarmouth. We have had one or two shocks there recently in connection with

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unemployment. There was a takeover bid for a large firm in Yarmouth some years ago. The firm was allowed to run down and has now been closed. The great master was ICI which controlled the company which took over the company in my constituency.
We now have another company in Yarmouth which has been taken over amid protestations of good faith. "None of the people who work at the factory will suffer any loss of any sort. Indeed we intend to increase our production if anything", it is said. I do not want to name names because it might be invidious. "Everything will be fine", it is said. I had a look at the company which had taken this company over. What do I find? It is the old story. It is simply a finance company which has precious little interest that I can see in the manufacture that goes on in the company that has been taken over.
Suppose that goes bust and we have more trouble and unemployment and suppose Yarmouth becomes an area which needs special help from the Government. I have already been to various Ministries about our difficulties. It is difficult to get help because we are not a special area. We cannot ask for special preference since during the year as a whole our unemployment has been lower than in many parts of the British Isles. But at least I have been able to go to Ministers and to talk with them knowing that I am talking to the people who have the power. When we finally sign on the dotted line and are in Europe, what do I then do? What assurance will I then have that when I go to a Minister in London I can feel confident that he will not have to go off somewhere, outside this country, to find out whether my town can be helped? I should be interested to know the answer to that. Throughout all the stages of the Bill there has been much discussion about regional assistance. How will it happen? What are the plans? What form will it take?
I should like to know as soon as possible. Perhaps this is one of the things about which the Prime Minister will be talking at the summit so that we will know more about it next week. So far we have had no real answer. I could see the point being made by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr.
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Paget). Unfortunately I was just coming into the Chamber, so I did not hear the whole of his argument. He was talking about a prices and incomes policy and how it would work in a European set-up. I earnestly hope that a voluntary prices and incomes policy can be agreed, although I have reservations, even if agreement is reached at Chequers, whether it will be supported by all trade unions. Suppose agreement is not reached and suppose the Government fall to the general call there will be in the Press to institute statutory control of prices and incomes. How will that fit into the pattern of Europe?
I have my views about what would have happened if we had been asked to join a Europe in which the nations had fixed prices and wages, which was not a free enterprise society at all. There would have been far more careful thought given to it. One thing is certain and it is that if there should be any talk of a statutory freeze of some sort we must know how it would affect our position with our European partners.
This is a sad day for Britain—it is a sad day for at least 14 million of our voters, which is a majority. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) admitted that there was no rush on the part of the British people to get into Europe. We have had a situation where, since the war, there has been a loosening of many things. I do not know whether the Liberal Party would dispute what I am saying. With all the havoc that has arisen through permissiveness and so on there has been one thing which has gone along with it, and it is that the more freedom people get the more they want. Young people have been demanding closer contact with those in positions of power and we have to start facing up to the fact that we have to treat the electorate as ordinary sensible, intelligent human beings.
We cannot go on brushing them off and looking down on them. We cannot say to people at an election, "We will do this, no more than this" and then flagrantly do what we said we would not do. We cannot do it and get away with it.
Dr. Glyn: I put it in my election address and won by a handsome majority.
Mr. Fell: My hon. Friend was one of the few who can claim such a distinction. He must realise that other people put other things in their election addresses and also had the support of the people. One thing he cannot get round, unless words have ceased to have any meaning at all, is that the Prime Minister made a promise. Some people may say, "For heaven's sake why don't you stop talking about what the Prime Minister said?". The people will not forget it if I do. The simple fact is that he made this promise.
I have been trying hard to understand how the Prime Minister's mind works.— [Interruption]—I am being quite serious about this. I listened with the greatest attention to his speech on Saturday. During that profound and carefully thought-out speech he spoke about the greatness of Britain. It is good to hear a leader of the country, more importantly a Conservative Prime Minister, talking about the greatness of Britain. What he said—I am not quoting him—was that we cannot be great by sitting at home. He said that we have gained our greatness in the past by going abroad. However true that may be, we have not gained our greatness by sinking our personality in the personality of six other countries and allowing our hands to be tied in the process. Of course we have joined various defence treaties and up to a point given away sovereignty, for our defence, our very lives.
It is not and never has been true that we have attempted to join an organisation of this sort. It is extraordinary that the Prime Minister, with the deep thinking that went into that speech, should not have realised that such a statement could not be taken seriously from a man of such high intelligence. Surely it was clear to anyone who listened to those words that there was an alternative other than entering the Community. Surely it must have been clear during all the discussions on the Bill. There must have been times when my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy wanted very much to give way on some Amendment which would have been useful.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon): No.
Mr. Fell: That makes it even worse. His hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-
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General, who played such an important part in these debates, must, I am sure, have known times when he wanted to give way on some of the brilliant Amendments tabled by hon. and right hon. Members. Never was such a thing apparently even contemplated. This has been the sad history of the House of Commons over the past year. It is no use some of my hon. Friends who are pro-Market laughing at what has happened. What they have to do is to laugh in the face of the British people, and that they dare not do.
Having got that off my chest, I repeat that in my view this is a day of mourning for the British people. However, I shall do what is in my small and humble power to help the process of Britain in Europe, now that we are about to begin.
7.45 p.m.
Mr. Eric Deakins: the hon. Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell) has spoken as passionately as he always does on the Common Market issue, although this time he rightly introduced a constituency element which worried him. Many more hon. Members in the months and years to come during the, one hopes, fairly short period of Common Market membership by Great Britain will increasingly face problems in their constituencies directly resulting from membership of the Common Market on the present terms.
I was just a little disappointed in the hon. Gentleman, for whom I have a great respect on this issue, in that he appeared in closing to have given up the struggle. I can assure him and pro-Marketeers on both sides that although one stage of the struggle ends today a new and much more important stage is now beginning on a different level, a struggle to ensure that British interests are adequately represented in Europe and that we make no further concessions until there can be an alternative Government of this country which will resolve to put the issue once and for all to the British people for their final verdict.
We are concerned today with the summit meeting. The very idea of a summit meeting conjures up thoughts of a gathering of Olympian deities disposing of the fates of nations. I do not know whether the Prime Minister is a historian. I suspect that he is not, but if he is he may well have been thinking back to the

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early days of the Congress system after the Napoleonic Wars, between 1814 and 1822, and perhaps thinking that the system that worked so well then might well be refurbished today in the form of constant Common Market summitry. But the Prime Minister, whatever his other virtues, is not an Olympian deity. Indeed, I think his only Olympian characteristic is his sublime disregard for the real problems which face the British people. The summit will not help in any way to resolve those problems, which are mainly economic but which are also social. The decisions taken there may well end up by exacerbating those problems.
For the Prime Minister attendance at the summit is not a matter of representing the British people, the British nation. It is really a matter now of party politics, because for the first time since the war we no longer have a bi-partisan foreign policy in one of the most important foreign policy areas of this country as an offshore island of the Continent of Europe. We have different party policies in our attitude to the Common Market.
While other leaders of the Common Market countries at the summit this week may well he able to claim, rightly or wrongly, to speak for their electorates, their parliaments and their nations, that is certainly not a claim that our Prime Minister will be able to make. I fear that he will carry much less weight at this summit than he should if he were to play the proper rôle of a representative of the British nation, because he goes there as Prime Minister of a nation completely divided on the issues which will be raised at the summit later this week. His weight will also be that much less as the Labour Opposition and many other people in Britain constantly reiterate their claim that the terms are not good enough and must be re-negotiated. The Prime Minister's presence at the summit will be somewhat insubstantial, lacking authority, rather like the ghost at Pompidou's banquet. It will be a sight that might well have frightened Macbeth, but I doubt whether the Prime Minister will carry much weight or influence with the other Common Market leaders that he will be meeting on equal terms.
Why cannot the Prime Minister speak for Britain and the British people later this week? There are a number of obvious reasons, and as they have not
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been spelt out so far in this debate, except by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition at the beginning, I shall pause a moment to summarise them. The first is that the Labour Party, the one alternative Government of this country, is completely opposed to the terms of entry. That needs saying again and again until it is finally heard and understood in the Common Market countries. That includes the Commission. Further than that, we must make it perfectly clear that it is not only the Labour Party that is opposed, but the British people. A majority of the British people go much further than the Labour Party in their opposition, because a majority are opposed to entry on any terms. Their point of view carries no weight in any of our debates, and will play no part in the summit.
I realise that these considerations will count for nothing with the Prime Minister or those he will take with him. He is above all a technocrat. He would have made, and could still make, a very good Chairman of the Commission in Brussels. But, with the greatest of respect, I do not regard him as a good democrat. I believe that he is one of those people who think they know what is best for the country, and say, "To hell with those rather tiresome, bothersome democratic procedures", procedures that must be overcome before the technocrats can have their way. There is a certain unselfconscious arrogance in the man in claiming to speak for the British people at such an important international meeting, one of the most important that any British Prime Minister has attended this century.
It has been wisely said by a person much better informed and more elegant than I, "Le style, c'est l'homme". That applies to the Prime Minister. There is no misunderstanding him or his motives. They are plain to see. Any doubts about the weakness of his addiction to democracy and democratic procedures will have been dispelled by his conduct during the European Communities Bill earlier this year.
The second reason why the Prime Minister will not be able to speak for the British people or Parliament is that there is an item on the agenda, the subject of European—that is, West European —economic and military union, which

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has never been debated in this Chamber and has never been publicly debated or put to the British people in an election or in any other way. It is an issue which has been kept in the background. The Prime Minister will not be able to claim that on this agenda item, which I understand he wholeheartedly supports and approves, he has the whole hearted consent of the British people or Parliament, since neither has discussed it. Therefore, if he seeks, as he will be seeking at the Common Market summit later this week, to commit the British people and nation to acceptance of the basic principles of West European economic and monetary union, he will not be speaking for all of us or the whole of the British people, certainly not for the alternative Government, Her Majesty's Opposition.
Does the Prime Minister realise exactly what economic and monetary union involve? His contretemps earlier this year in the little matter of fixed exchange rates suggests that he does not know what he is letting himself in for. The fact that his earlier Common Market agreement was broken so quickly could provide a useful precedent for a future Government.
However, I think there is method in the Prime Minister's madness. He wants a federal Western Europe, and he, like many undeclared federalists in this House, wants economic and monetary union, because that would put the seal on the process—it would be a vital stage towards achieving that federal Western Europe which he and many other right hon. and hon. Members wish to see. An undeclared federalist, without the courage of his convictions, afraid to have the issue openly debated in this Chamber and before the British people, is not a very good example. Yet one can sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman, because if the issue of economic and monetary union were explained to the British people, if the real, basic issue of federalism in Western Europe were explained to them, how much more violent would be their anger, resentment and rejection of the Government's attitude on this issue! Yet the Prime Minister will go to Paris later this week and sign on the dotted line, trying to commit the British people and nation in favour of a vital step on the way to a federal Western Europe.
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The Labour Party, fortunately, has looked at some of the consequences, though not yet all, that would flow from an economic and monetary union. We have looked at the idea of permanently fixed exchange rates, and we have rejected them. We have looked at the idea of harmonisation of indirect taxation, which is inevitable in an economic and monetary union, not to mention ultimate harmonisation of direct taxation, company taxation and so on, and we have rejected these ideas as well. But there are many more features of economic and monetary union which are totally repugnant to the Labour movement of this country and the British people. Let there be no doubt that the Labour Party and the Labour movement, and, I suspect, a majority of the British people, will not be behind the Prime Minister when he agrees to economic and monetary union later this week.
An earlier speaker in the debate—I think the Foreign Secretary—mentioned that my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1966 or 1967 had approved the idea of West European monetary co-operation. But that is not the argument. My right hon. Friend favoured, as I suspect most of us in this Chamber do, the closest possible co-operation in monetary matters with those countries with whom we have interests in common. There is a great difference, and it is not just a semantic difference, between co-operation and integration. The project of West European economic and monetary union is not a project of economic and monetary co-operation; it is a project of economic and monetary integration. I sometimes wish that some of my right hon. and hon. Friends who are pro-Market would also appreciate this distinction, because it puts into perspective the argument we heard from my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) about internationalism.
The alternatives are not to accept integration with Western Europe or to be isolationists. They are to accept integration or to deny integration and have close co-operation. Internationalism can mean either, and the sooner that is appreciated the better. The fact that most people in the Labour movement

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reject international integration does not mean that they reject international co-operation.
If the Prime Minister were really concerned with British interests at the summit this week there would have been a rather different agenda. We know from Press reports that he made very little attempt, other than on the issue of regional policy, to have any major changes made in the agenda. First, there should have been no mention of economic and monetary union. That issue should have been swept to one side, because it he is successful in promoting that idea and if, which I think is unlikely, he stays in power long enough to see it to successful fruition, he will do more than anything else could do to cripple the British economy and the powers of the British Parliament and people over it. His efforts in that respect would be even more successful in crippling our economy than the Industrial Relations Act, the European Communities Act and other inflationary measures that we have adopted.
An item that should be on the summit agenda, but is not, is the re-negotiation of some of the onerous terms that were forced on us during the abortive negotiations. I regard them as abortive, because they really amounted to a surrender all along the line. I should like to see a re-negotiation particularly of those terms which will cause increasing inflationary pressures in the British economy. That is an argument that should appeal very much to a Prime Minister, Cabinet and Government who regard inflation as the most important economic problem facing the nation.
There are two inflationary items which need to be dealt with. First of all, the balance of payments burden, which I will not attempt to value, but, obviously, it will be that much worse as a result of hidden devaluation of the £ or the floating exchange rate, and that will pose for a future Government of this country the problem of how to cope with the consequences of a balance of payments crisis. I suspect that the argument of this Government and possibly of another Government would be that we must have an export led boom to get over the balance of payments burden, but an export led boom must inevitably increase the
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inflationary pressures on the economy, which goes against all that the Prime Minister is urging on the nation at the present time.
The second item in the inflationary package negotiated in Brussels earlier this year concerns the cost of living. We have debated this a good deal—food prices going up, value added tax, and so on, and the ultimate harmonisation of value added tax. So in spite of what promarketeers say it will ultimately have to apply to food, rents, home ownership, fares and so on when we are brought into line with other Common Market countries. Will this not lead to demands for higher wages and pensions and social security benefits—to justified demands? And if they are met, as they will have to be, does this not increase further the inflationary pressures on the economy?
The summit decisions taken in negotiations earlier this year have imposed and continue to impose great burdens on the British people. Some of us would say that those burdens can never be resolved in terms of the Common Market. Britain socially, economically and politically will be so worsened by Market membership that only withdrawal, the British people's consent to that course of action having first been obtained, will enable us to resolve them.
I should point out that withdrawal will not leave us friendless, isolated, alone to face a hostile world, because we shall still have an industrial free trade area with the enlarged Common Market and the EFTA countries which are not joining, and we shall, therefore, be able to enjoy the economic advantages for which we are paying such a heavy and exorbitant price in terms of economic strength and loss of sovereignty.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon): I am very interested in this point. Does the hon. Member say—how does he think—that if we renegotiate we shall get an industrial free trade area of that kind and that is all?
Mr. Deakins: I am grateful for that interruption because I want to emphasise that in this part of my speech I am speaking out as an anti-Marketeer against entry on any terms. I have dealt with the issue of renegotiation of the terms which need to be renegotiated. I am saying that if we

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withdraw and stop our payments to the Community Fund I do not think the Community or we will want to be the first to re-erect, against the rules of GATT, incidentally, tariff barriers which have previously been brought down. I think we should end up with the sort of solution Sweden has and Norway is most likely to get.
The best and immediate way to tackle the problem in advance of the summit is for us to get rid of the Prime Minister, so determined to carry out his Market policy without regard to the real needs and interests of the British people. I think his policies at this summit will be in direct conflict with the policies he has been urging on us for domestic consumption. He will be speaking with one voice in Paris and another voice to the British people. He will be accepting inflationary propositions in Paris while he will be telling us when he gets back that we must combat inflation. I do not think anyone, even someone as adroit as the Prime Minister, will be able successfully, in this era of mass communications, to get away with saying two different things to two different audiences. What he should do is to use the summit to start the process of renegotiation which, if it does not start now, will inevitably have to start when we have an alternative Government.
8.5 p.m.
Mr. Cecil Parkinson: I apologise to the House for missing some of the speeches although I have been present during most of the debate. I shall not very closely follow the hon. Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Deakins). All I would say, having sat in on most of the debates throughout the various stages of the European Communities Bill, is that I have the distinct feeling that I have heard a great deal of his speech before. He always contrives to sound very forceful and interesting, but basically the message is always the same. It is one of despair; it is one of negation with not anything positive about it. If I may give him some advice, I suggest that he stops making it for he is not doing his parliamentary reputation any good now, and further repetition will wear away what remains of that fragile stone.
I listened with interest to him, with great authority, once again,
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proclaiming that the terms are totally unacceptable. I could not help thinking of other people in his party for whom I have possibly even higher regard, such as the former Shadow Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever), the former Market negotiator, the former Foreign Secretary, the whole of the former Treasury team, at the time of the Second Reading of the Bill, all of them finding the terms acceptable, all of them in favour, most of them prepared to stand up and say so, most of them, as a result, relegated to the back benches. I know that they are still regarded in the minds of most as people whose economic views are perhaps of greater value than those of the knee in the groin politician who now occupies the post of Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer.
I had the rather tough job of following him around Germany last year and trying to explain to audiences to which he had been speaking a year before what had happened to him. He had been going round Germany as the most convinced European who ever existed, making speeches such that his audiences were fired with enthusiasm. I was told over and over again what a fine speaker he was, what a wonderful man he was, what conviction he carried. Then I was asked what had happened. What had happened to his convictions? What went wrong? What suddenly happened to this man who was a convinced European only a little time ago, and was now, for various reasons desperately trying to maintain that he never was in favour, or making rather poor arguments about the terms, trying to imply that he had been against on principle all along?
All I can say is this, as I have listened over and over again to this argument for renegotiation, that the Labour Party should ask itself who is to do the renegotiating. All of its Front Bench team at present are almost totally discredited in Europe, and the idea that any one of them, such as the Shadow Chancellor, will now renegotiate is laughable to anybody who crosses the Channel and talks to people to whom he was making speeches not so long ago. The same is true of the present Leader of the Opposition as well as many of his Front Bench colleagues. The idea that Europe is waiting with open arms to renegotiate

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with that group of idealistic people all of whom have totally changed their attitude, totally changed their stance, and have tried to muscle in on the block vote bandwaggon, people who have abandoned their principles—the idea that Europe is waiting to talk and renegotiate with them is enough to make anybody of common sense laugh.
As I listened to the Leader of the Opposition giving us a little lecture on democracy I could not help remembering an article I read, and I went to the Library to get a copy of it. It is a leader in the New York Times, which described the Labour Party Conference, and I hope the House will bear with me for a moment if I quote a little bit from it:
"When the British Labour Party is out of power its annual conference—probably the most undemocratic assembly of its kind in the West—often becomes an emotional outburst of unreality and irresponsibility. It is useful to keep this thought in mind in scanning the havoc wrought at Blackpool this week by a bizarre combination of union bosses, fellow-travellers, Little Englanders, Commonwealth firsters and sordid opportunists."
I think that sentence is slightly overdone—but only slightly—because there were many people at the Conference from the constituencies who did not fall into any of those brackets. This is not a Conservative politician making a party political speech about the Labour Party; this is the New York Times commenting in a leader, on its views of the Opposition. One may not agree with it, but this is much more the way in which the world is looking at and talking about the Labour Party.
The idea which the Leader of the Opposition appears to have acquired from somewhere that he is still regarded as a statesman from whom the world is waiting to hear and to renegotiate with is not the way in which the rest of the world sees him. The sooner he gets rid of the idea that the big block vote cast in his favour is the equivalent of commendation from the public the better.
One of my problems as I travelled round Europe was trying to explain the situation to people who might read in their newspapers that 5 million people in the Labour Party were against the Common Market as a result of a vote at the Labour Party conference and the next week might read that only 3,000 or
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4,000 Conservatives were in favour of it. I had the difficult problem of explaining that we in the Conservative Party are a democratic party, that we believe in one man, one vote and that whether one gives £10,000 or 10p to the Conservative Party if one is sent as a delegate to the Conservative Party Conference—and only if—one casts only one vote. I had to explain that the Socialist Party—the party which has given us nauseating lecture after nauseating lecture about its belief in democracy—is the party in which money buys votes. The bigger one's contribution, the bigger one's vote at the conference. Nothing is passed unless Mr. Scanlon and Mr. Jones agree.
I speak as someone who, when a young man, was a member of the Labour Party—[HON. MEMBERS: " Oh."] Yes, I was a member of the Young Socialists for a short time. But one cannot go on talking about democracy day in and day out and use the power of the block vote to produce the answer one wants on the basis of a late night whisky with the leader of one's party in his suite at the conference hotel, without sickening the listener.
Mr. Nigel Spearing: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that the gentlemen he has named who are secretaries of big unions alone decide in which way a vote should be cast? Is he not aware that each of these unions has a conference to which each branch sends a delegation and many issues, if not all issues, are discussed at the conference? The delegations meet at intervals throughout the time of the conference. Is the hon. Gentleman aware of those facts?
Mr. Parkinson: I am aware of them. I am also aware of the facts to which I listened during the various discussions on the Industrial Relations Act. A very eloquent spokesman for the National Union of Seamen told us that when elections are held in his union, although the lists are kept open for six months because in that time every member of the union has the chance to come back to this country and vote, there is a vote of under 3 per cent. of the total electorate. One can imagine how many attend the conference about which the hon. Gentleman has just spoken. I do not

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claim to speak for the whole of my constituency, but if Mr. Jones claims to speak for the whole of his union he is not only a dangerous man; he is a knave as well.
I have listened with great interest to the debates on this issue. I have very strong views about it. I do not see Europe as a threat; I see it as an opportunity. I see our chance to join Europe as a chance to play a part in an ever more dangerous world. I see it as a chance for us to create greater economic security for the British people. I see it as a chance to play a part in creating a safer world.
I am sick and tired of the infighting which has gone on in the House and of the Labour Party, knowing that a very substantial number of its members are in favour of joining the Common Market, trying to find procedural means of stopping them expressing their opinion, telling them that they are not voting about the Common Market but sustaining the Conservative Government. It has used every possible means to stop them expressing their views about the issue. The country is getting sick of the Labour Party's wheelings and dealings. I am not pleased that the country is not enthusiastically in favour of the Common Market. But do not let the Labour Party think that the country is impressed by its manoeuvrings. Do not let it think that because it is side tracking most of the moderate and sensible people who are electorally much more of a threat than most of the people promoted in their places, it is doing itself any good.
The sooner the Labour Party starts to think of Europe as a great design, as a great opportunity, as a force for good in the world, as a continent made up of countries able to combine together to use its great economic power, its great diplomatic expertise, its worldwide connections for good in the world. The sooner it ceases to use Europe as a means of putting something on the Order Paper which will make its Europeans wriggle and further discredit themselves, the sooner that party will start to play a rôle in creating that which I want to join Europe for—a more prosperous, more secure and more humane Britain. Europe offers great opportunities for us to play a rôle for good, and I hope that the Labour Party, even at this late stage, will
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stop using it as an opportunity for party manoeuvring and will start to see it as something worthwhile, inspiring and noble.
8.16 p.m.
Mr. Michael English: Converts, it is said, are usually more Catholic than the Pope. That is the only comment I need to make on the speech of the hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Parkinson).
I wish now to refer to the speech of the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins). I propose to go on to matters of greater importance later. I was slightly surprised by his speech. One incident which followed it was illustrative of a great deal. Immediately after the right hon. Member had made it, he walked out of the Chamber without following the usual courtesy of remaining while the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) made his speech. There are sometimes good reasons for breaking that courtesy, which is why it is a courtesy and not a rule. But it is usual to explain that one has a reason or possibly—since it was obvious who would speak next—to pass a note privately to that Member. I understand that neither was done.
That illustrated a great deal. Because it concerned someone who had been in the Oxford Union, I cannot think that it was ignorance of the courtesies of the House. It illustrates the sort of attitude—which is objected to in this party—adopted by less moderate members of the same faction, such as the former Member for Lincoln, Mr. Taverne. It is an attitude which, whether or not actually arrogant, certainly appears to be arrogant in regard to this House. Outside the House people have come to take the view that many Members who favour British entry to the Common Market are taking an arrogant attitude towards the electorate. This is the danger in the electorate's view of Parliament.
The speech of the right hon. Member for Stechford had its usual technical brilliance. I do not think the same of its content. He said—and I think that I have some claim to speak on this point—that the Labour Party should participate in the institutions of the Community. It is rash to say that one first thought of any idea. I will merely point out that

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as far back as July I put to the appropriate members of my Front Bench the thought that the Labour Party should not participate in the European Assembly. The idea seems to have grown a little since then. It has been taken up a little.
It is up to the Parliamentary Labour Party to decide. I do not know whether the Labour Party will eventually decide to participate in the European Assembly. However, I must take up the argument of the right hon. Member for Stechford that we should. He said that, if we did, the Socialist Party would be the biggest party in the European Assembly. I have seen this statement in various newspapers lately. It is a rather specious statement. It ignores the figures.
I will explain what the figures are. In April of this year, there were in the European Assembly 50 Christian Democrats, 37 Socialists, 22 Liberals and their allies—the Liberals in Europe are usually to the right of their compatriots here—19 Gaullists—they can surely not be regarded as to the left of anybody—and 11 others, and "others" in this case includes the Italian Communists.
Therefore, as I work it out, assuming that all the 11 others were to the left of the Socialist Party, the left would have 48 members and the right wing parties—Liberals, Christian Democrats and Gaul-lists would have 91—an interesting combination. Adding almost equal numbers of Conservative and Labour Members to both sides would do nothing.
The proposal I originally put forward to my Front Bench was not a stupid one, in the sense that I regard it as stupid simply to say that one should walk out. This is like a kid having had its toy taken away and crying. I am not suggesting that the Labour Party should walk out. I was making a much more positive proposal. The proposal I made was that the European Assembly delegation should represent entirely the governing party in the State, and that at present happens to be the Conservative Party, the only one which is wholly in favour of entering Europe on these terms. It also at a future time might well be the Labour Party.
What is even more important, as many hon. Members—the majority—wish to be good Europeans, it is exactly the practice which the French adopt. The French
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make their entire delegation consist at present of Gaullists. Not even the right hon. Member for Stechford could conceivably deny that the French have great influence in Europe and are possibly the most influential single power in Europe. This is one of the reasons why they are.
When the right hon. Member for Stechford says that the Labour Party should participate in the European Assembly he is really saying that there should be a Conservative minority amongst the delegation when there is a Labour Government. I would wish him to explain that, because it assumes that a European Assembly delegation is like a Select Committee of the House. A Select Committee represents the House as a whole, but there is no constitutional practice that says that our delegations abroad to international institutions should consist of members of the minority party. As far as I know, for example, a delegation to the United Nations often includes Members of Parliament, but they are always drawn from the governing party.
Further, the principle for which I am arguing has already been conceded by the Government, because the Government have appointed not one but two Commissioners. The fact that one of them happens technically to belong to the Labour Party is not the point I am arguing about. The point I am arguing about is known as the Gaitskell rule. In Macmillan's day Hugh Gaitskell was asked whether he would like to be consulted with regard to the appointment of some Labour Life Peers. Hugh Gaitskell said, "No", for a very simple reason. He said, "If you want to tell me that I can appoint a certain number of Labour Peers, I will. If you want to appoint Labour Peers, you may, but please do not consult me. If you are doing the appointing, you do it. If I am doing the appointing, I will do it." This rule has always been adhered to since. If the Government of the day wish to allot to the Opposition a certain proportion of the membership of, let us say, a Select Committee, they say to the Opposition. "You can have so many places" and the Opposition themselves determine the membership of those places.
This was not done in this case. The right hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. George Thomson) was appointed by the Conservative Government with, as far as

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I am aware, no consultation of, and certainly not by the Opposition Front Bench.
The more important point that I want to turn to is that of the whole attitude that the European Communities Act and the manner of its passage and its results have engendered in the country. I thought that the Government, after they had pushed the Act through, could have felt that they were able to relax and to be a little more democratic than they had been. I am sorry that they do not believe this. On the one hand, they argue that the European institutions are like a Select Committee and we should have bipartisan membership. On the other hand, they argue, as the Prime Minister did in answer to Questions this afternoon, "This summit meeting is an ordinary international meeting and it has never been customary to reveal our proposals beforehand."
The Government cannot have it both ways. They must choose. Either we are not in any sort of international institution which is different from any other sort of foreign policy body, or we are. The passion that has been aroused by members of the pro-European lobby says that we are in a different sort of thing and that it will open up a new world in Western Europe. If that is so, please apply the same principles all the time and be consistent. Consistency in this case says. not that we should have, as I understand from one hon. Member on this side, a summit that meets in private with proposals unknown to anyone outside beforehand and which lays down a legislative programme like a Queen's Speech for the next two years. I believe that that was the suggestion. How would it lay it down—not in a democratic way, but in an authoritarian way.
If we were to be truly democratic, it would have been possible to say, "These are the British proposals. We know that we shall have to negotiate upon them, but these are what they are. Let the country as a whole and the House of Commons discuss them".
The right hon. Member for Stechford said that this debate was pointless and should not have taken place. Of course the debate should have taken place, though it could have had something a little more substantial to discuss if the
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Government's proposals for a summit meeting had been placed before it as a White Paper. If there is any fault in the nature of the debate, it is not that the debate is being held but that it could have been a meatier debate had there been proposals before it which could have been argued about. The fault for that lies fairly and squarely upon the Prime Minister, who likes to conduct these things in private without the awkward, nasty interference of the House of Commons.
I accept, as the right hon. Member for Stechford said, that there is a tremendous need, a need which is recognised by many people in Europe, for greater democracy in the Common Market. This is not apparently on the Prime Minister's agenda. Indeed, it was only the third item on the agenda of the right hon. Member for Stechford, and even he said that by "democracy" he did not mean anything on the lines of an elected assembly, though that is one thing which democracy is commonly held to include.
Something deeper than this has to be considered. The present attitude is only illustrative of what has happened in the past. On this point I very much agreed with something that was said by the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten). He mentioned it in respect of his own party but raised an argument about morality. It is morality and respect for our democratic processes which I believe have been endangered by the whole way in which this Act has been passed.
On all sides we hear about people who say that they no longer believe in upholding the law. We know of them in Northern Ireland on both sides, Catholic and Protestant. We know of them, as we often hear from Conservative members, in the trade unions. We also know of them in the shape of people who wish to evade regulations in regard to exports to Rhodesia. In companies, in trade unions and in the population as a whole there is a growing disrespect for the law and for democracy. The situation is not helped if either party in the State goes to the electorate and says merely, as both parties did at the last election, that it wishes to negotiate British entry into the Community and the leader of one even says we all know that the present Prime Minister said at that time that he would

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not wish to go into the Community without having the full-hearted consent of the British Parliament and people—and then does just the opposite. We know that it was not the full-hearted consent of Parliament, and it was certainly not the full-hearted consent of the British people. We know, as indeed the right hon. Member for Stechford admitted, that the overwhelming majority of the public as a whole were opposed to British entry at the time the Bill was going through the House and that they did not have a chance to decide for themselves.
This is what the argument is all about. It is no good saying to the public, "We have not used a referendum before, so we shall not do so in the future." Nor is it any good saying to the public that they are less to be trusted as an electorate than somebody in the bogs of Ireland; and indeed that they are less to be trusted as an electorate than the Danes or Norwegians, or even than the French. All those people have been consulted, whereas our people have not.
The people have not been consulted in the normal way either. They have not been consulted by being confronted by two parties in the State at a general election, one party saying, "We are in favour of British entry" and the other saying "We are not in favour". The public have been consulted in no way at all.
For this reason the actions of the right hon. Member for Stechford illustrate an attitude which tends to be called elitism. A less polite word for it is perhaps arrogance. It is the arrogance of those who say, "What we decide here totally represents democracy", when every person in this Chamber knows that on this issue we do not represent the majority of the country.
There are people who hold passionate views on the Common Market. There is a minority of Conservative Members who can at least claim that they represent the majority of the people in the country, even if they do not represent the majority of those attending their own party conference.
There are some people on this side of the House who take the minority view, and I do not know who they claim to represent. They cannot claim to represent either the Labour Party or the people. What worries me is that if in
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this House we do not truly represent the people of this country, then in the end we have no title to claim that the law should be obeyed by those people who have never had a chance to be consulted about what it should be.
8.32 p.m.
Mr. James Molyneaux: A little earlier today my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley), tried to obtain from the Ministry of Agriculture assurances that pig producers in Northern Ireland would be protected from the hardships that they would experience following entry into the EEC. I strongly support that plea. Surely it is not unreasonable to ask for certain safeguards in the form of a lengthy transitional period, at least until recent heavy capital expenditure has been recouped. Already the adjustments in preparation for entry have had a detrimental effect on the pig industry, but the impact on egg producers has been well nigh disastrous.
It is fair to say that all egg producers in Northern Ireland are suffering a substantial loss on every dozen eggs produced. Their capital costs have been as great as, and in some cases much greater than, those in other branches of agriculture. The cost of their feedingstuffs has risen. Under the Common Market quota system they will be unable to shop around for cheap feedingstuffs and grains, and therefore they can see no way out of their difficulties. Many are on the verge of bankruptcy, and I know many farmers who have had to sell off land to pay off their debts. They are without hope and they see no way out of their troubles. They are certain of one thing only, and that is that their position will worsen. I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster will try to do something to help both these categories.
My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) dealt earlier with the question of a referendum. I hope the House will forgive me if I, as a Northern Ireland Member, sound a little cynical on this topic. We in Ulster have discovered that on this subject promise and fulfilment are two completely different things. One suspects that there are many in the House who support the idea only when the probable result is to their liking.

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I turn briefly to another aspect of entry which bewilders me and that is the serenity with which many hon. Members on both sides of the House face the prospect, and indeed the certainty, of the erosion of their own rights and powers. A year ago in this House there was a test of opinion of sorts in Parliament.
We could understand at that time the enthusiasm, even if we did not entirely share it, for what was regarded as a great adventure—enthusiasm which overcame certain niggling doubts about the wisdom of transforming this House into a subordinate assembly. But one year later there can be no such excuse, because today in this House, during the statement on Northern Ireland, we have had a tragic reminder of what can happen to a subordinate body when its betters do not understand and maybe do not care what peculiar difficulties it faces and how delicate balances can be upset by well-meaning but blundering outsiders, with disastrous results.
I wonder whether hon. Members have ever considered what would happen in England if at some future time a Commission in Brussels or elsewhere were to take the liberty of advising on how we should cope with an influx of residents from some part of the Commonwealth? What would be the effect of, say, a long-range report on the housing conditions of immigrants? Would that be followed by advice to the effect that certain councils might have to be wound up? And would it stop there? Might not we have teams of investigators setting about to convince certain members of the Community that they were under-privileged? It would then be a short step to disturbances, and no doubt they would be inspired by the example of what has happened in Northern Ireland, where, unfortunately, it has been shown that violence and force do bring their rewards.
It would be far-fetched to suggest that even the Council of Europe could try to suspend Westminster. I imagine, with respect, that the March initiative has cured even the most adventurous politicians of any hankering for direct rule all over the world, but it is not farfetched to suggest that certain pressures will be applied to prevent this Parliament doing what it believes to be right in the
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interests of the people it represents, and even at this very late stage I beg the Government and my fellow Members to consider very carefully what it is they are on the verge of throwing away.
8.40 p.m.
Mr. Michael Meacher: I want to return to the issue first raised in the debate by my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. Harold Wilson)—the issue of regional policy, which will certainly form the central feature of the coming summit. Although everyone recognises that the theme of economic and monetary union will certainly dominate the summit, there can be very little disagreement that such a prospect is utterly unpalatable unless there is full acceptance of another item on the agenda, namely, the construction of an effective industrial regional policy for the Community, for once economic and monetary union has precluded the possibility of nation-wide regional devaluations, reasonable equilibrium in the face of the concentrating pressures of the Market can come only through very strong and wide-ranging counter-pulls deliberately constructed in favour of the old industrial areas, and it is not too much to say that the success of the summit, for Britain at least, hinges on the negotiation of an industrial regional policy strong enough to provide solutions to any severe imbalances for which previously devaluation was considered to be the most appropriate course of action.
This immediately raises three issues. The first is the balance which will be sought in the Community budget between the agricultural and the industrial sectors. The second concerns the overall size of the industrial fund that will be allocated towards regional stabilisation. The third concerns the instruments which will be adopted for carrying out the policy and what degree of flexibility they will have.
On the question of the relationship between the agricultural and industrial parts of the Community budget, it is at last now almost everywhere admitted that the balance is heavily lopsided in a way which would at present work heavily to Britain's disadvantage. Of a total budget of one and two-thirds billion, no less than 80 per cent. goes to sheer price support and only about 1 per cent. goes towards Euratom, for example, while the amount

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spent in the European social fund to retrain Community workers is actually only one-hundredth of 1 per cent. The balance within the agricultural fund between the sheer price support and the guidance section which is concerned with promoting structural improvement is also heavily weighted to the disadvantage of the latter.
It is obviously crucial, therefore, that at the summit Britain should insist on at least as much emphasis being placed on a full-scale industrial regional policy as France has for so long insisted on being placed on a basically untenable and unacceptable CAP. The very minimum requirement must be that Community expenditure swings heavily away from direct support for agriculture and towards promoting industrial development in just those areas where the proportion of the population employed on the land is very high. The Community proposed in October last year that £100 million should go towards subsidies over the next five years to assist employers at the rate of £600 for every job created for a farmer or one of his children. This may be a step in the right direction, but I suggest that is ridiculously small if a decisive change is intended.
This leads to the second question, which is the most important of all, about the total fund to be made available for industrial regional purposes and it is here that the Government are caught in a dilemma: either the extent of regional aid is maintained at the level proposed by the recent Industry Act—which, on all the evidence, remains quite unacceptable to the Commission—or a much more modest programme of regional aid is agreed, in which case, even if the total for industrial purposes were considerably raised above the present levels within the Community, the prospect for Britain would still be a considerable move towards regional inequality and a faster run-down of the older depressed areas.
There is not yet agreement on whether a joint policy for regional programmes will replace or complement national policies. Undoubtedly, a complementary joint policy would be to Britain's interest. But the signs are not good. The German Government's intervention regarding the Industry Bill in May, the Brussels limitation in April of Italian Government
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credits to small and medium-size firms to one year, and the Commission's rejection of the Belgian Economic Expansion Act all point, obviously, in precisely the opposite direction.
Indeed, since the Community has so far shown itself far more concerned with preventing the spiralling cost of competition to attract foreign investment than with pumping adequate resources into the poorer areas, it is all too likely that national policies will be forcibly harmonised, and for Britain that will mean difficulties.
Mr. Deakins: Is there not a further danger—my hon. Friend may be coming to this—that if there were to be an industrial regional policy in the enlarged Community, it would be financed separately from the present Community budget and new sources of finance would have to be found for it? In such circumstances, is it not at least arguable that Britain would put in precisely as much as it got out of it, and there would, therefore, be no net benefit for Britain from such an industrial regional policy financed separately?
Mr. Meacher: I am grateful for that intervention. I was trying to make the point that, unless one has a large swing away within the existing Community budget from sheer farm price support to industrial purposes, any alternative system providing for industrial regional aid will not prove to be of any net advantage for Britain.
This is extremely serious for Britain because the recent Industry Act, which is certainly more generous than the equivalent Community policies, is itself likely to prove unequal to the task of reducing regional disparities, and regional policy in Britain over the last 10 years, as in France and Belgium, has failed to narrow the gap, particularly, between the richer and the poorer regions, despite enormous increases in aid.
In Britain, preferential Government assistance to the development areas stood roughly at £25 million a year in the first half of the 1960s. In the second half, by 1970, it had risen eightfold, to £300 million a year, a level to which, I am glad to say, the Industry Act is now returning. Yet the excess of unemployment in the depressed areas, despite that

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bonanza, is just as great as, if not greater than, it was at the start 10 years ago. In the Northern region and in Scotland, the regions with the highest unemployment, preferential aid 10 years ago stood at £10 million a year. It is now £120 million. Yet the unemployment differential is just as high as ever it was.
What this means is that, if the level of regional aid in Britain is cut, even the very modest success of the last decade in preventing a worsening of the unemployment differential will be sacrificed.
Is there any realistic possibility of obtaining anything approaching that level of aid, when the Foreign Secretary in this debate emphasises that the CAP is non-negotiable, and the so-called peripheral regions are unlikely to be defined much beyond the Italian Mazzogiorno and west and south-west France, and possibly the German frontier zone?
The third issue raised by a regional policy strong enough to compensate for the loss of the devaluation option concerns the instruments for carrying it out. In its 1969 memorandum on regional policy, the Commission recommended that a standing regional development committee be set up to examine regional policy forecasts and programmes. If implemented, such a body should, it seems to me, not merely ensure that two depressed regions with broadly similar problems in two countries receive much the same level of assistance but should, rather, give the necessary flexibility of action to ensure that the unique local problems of particular countries may be met. Yet again the signs are not good. The regional employment premium, which will surely remain as an essential component in any regional aid package in Britain, is disapproved of by the Commission, not because it is inherently unfair but because its total net value cannot be properly quantified. That is typically superimposing a bureaucratic standardisation upon sensitivity towards national and local needs.
The central issue is money and the level of regional aid which will be put towards an industrial policy of devaluation is to be effectively blocked, as it will be, by economic and monetary union. Then a regional aid programme will be required that is several times more am-
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bitious than the recently-passed Industry Act. If the accelerated concentration of capital investment is to be fully countered if the summit does not yield the outlines of such a programme, then it will be the height of irresponsibility for the Government to bow to further French pressure towards economic and monetary union.
8.51 p.m.
Mr. J. Selwyn Gummer: I am sorry that we have had in many parts of the debate a repeat of the debates which went on before the historic decision which culminated today in the announcement of the Royal Assent. However, it is inevitable because we have a situation in which, instead of facing the issue head on, large sections of the Opposition have wished to continue the agony of arguing about the future and, sadly, of opting out of their opportunity to change Europe.
Many of the views which were made by the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher) will be shared by many who are enthusiastic supporters of our entry into the EEC. It would be wrong to allow the hon. Member for Waltham-stow, West (Mr. Deakins) to get away with the easy definition of internationalism as meaning co-operation and not integration. The hon. Gentleman means that he will accept internationalism as long as it does not make any demands on him, as long as he does not have to do anything about it, as long as he does not have to change the world and to make it more internationally minded. He is quite happy to go on addressing his United Nations Association branch about internationalism but once it means actually changing the world, then the hon. Gentleman will not have it.
However, we on this side of the House, and many people who have not been able to put this forward as clearly as they would like because of the pressures placed upon them, would like to say that they believe in a kind of internationalism which moves towards the brotherhood of man, which brings people together to work jointly for their future. But we shall not be able to do that unless we accept that we must be truthful in dealing with the problems which the summit will discuss.
It is not truthful to say that the reason why Belgium plans for the regions were

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turned down by the Commission was some anti-regional attitude. It was because those plans were vague and aimed not at helping the regions but at giving the whole of Belgium special protection, and not those regions which needed such protection, against the rest of the Community. It was perfectly reasonable for the Commission to do so. One would have expected it to do so and would have complained had it not done so.
It is not acceptable to look at the summit on the basis that, because a particular method unknown in the history of Britain has not been used to find out whether the British people support our entry into the Common Market, the Prime Minister goes to the summit without the authority of the British people. It is for this House to give authority to the Prime Minister, whether he be Socialist or Conservative. It is for this House to make up its mind in the duly constituted manner and, the House having done so, it is for the nation to accept that that is the law.
Crocodile tears have been shed by the hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English) about the feelings of many people who are no longer willing to accept the law as they once were. The hon. Gentleman is one of those persons who are suggesting that, Parliament having passed the law in exactly the way in which the Leader of the Opposition said that he would pass it, in the way in which not only the nation but every organ of public opinion outside the nation believes to be the normal way to pass the law, the Labour Party, having passed a number of seemingly contradictory decisions at its conference, should now cease to accept the decision.
I believe that it would be a sad thing for Europe as a whole if the Labour Party and the whole of Britain did not use their full and united influence to build in Europe the kind of community which we all wish to see. I believe that that kind of community will be started now in the summit discussions. The first mark of that community must be to increase the democratic nature of Europe. If we are to do that, it will be nonsense if the Labour Party says that it will not contribute to any of the present democratic forms. I hope that those who have fought against Europe because it was not demo-
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cratic enough will be the first to demand that in the present arrangements there is a full and loud-mouthed group of Conservative and Socialist parliamentarians putting the view of those who fight for more democracy in Europe.
I must give warning to my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster that many of us will now begin to exert continued pressure on him and his colleagues to see that direct elections are instituted as rapidly as possible. Until there is a direct means of electing Members from this country to the European Parliament, I believe that we shall not have moved far enough towards creating the kind of democratic structure that we want.
I agree with the hon. Gentleman's comments about the need for a very strong regional policy. One of the major reasons for support for our entry is that so many of us believe that the regional difficulties of Europe are an important, perhaps the most important, social problem facing not just Britain but the other countries of Europe, and that it will be better solved as part of the Community than separately, with Britain outside it. It is not good enough to suggest that the regions which would be helped are only those of certain parts of Germany and the Mezzogiorno. It is not true and is known not to be true, as has been stated again and again, not only by British politicians but by those in the Community responsible for regional policy. Purposely or ignorantly—one or the other—it misleads the country disgracefully to suggest that the regions of Britain which need help will not he amongst the first to receive it, because that is the stated policy not only of the present Government but of the last Government and of the Commissioners concerned with the regions.
I hope that on the agenda for the summit and out of the summit will come the realisation and a continuation of the desire to show that Britain is not prepared to resign itself to a fourth-rate position in the world. I believe that we have a great deal to contribute to the growing unity of Europe. I believe that inside this new association we can show the kind of internationalism which may hurt in the sense that it demands a great deal of us but which will be more effective than all the fine words and generalities we have heard about internationalism in the last 25 years.

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We are being asked to put our internationalism to the test. We are being asked to act out our internationalism. We are being asked to build in Europe a unity which can bring to its nations a greater degree of prosperity and power in the world and the chance to help further the ends of "one world". It will remind us that if we really believe in international society, the concept of one nation must be developed into the concept of "one world".
Finally, unless we are prepared to use every means possible to narrow the gap between the rich and the poor nations of the world, we shall have lost the great opportunity which the unification of Europe can bring us. Many of us fight for this new association in Europe because we want to draw upon the wealth of Europe to use it for purposes for which it should be used—to change this world so that, instead of merely being concerned with the power of Britain, a theme which has been the burden of the speeches of many right hon. and hon. Members opposite, we shall be concerned with the poor of the whole of Europe and of the whole of the world.
9.0 p.m.
Mr. Peter Shore: I will not comment on the last speech, because, if I may return the point to the hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Selwyn Gummer), we have heard it from him on previous occasions. I do not doubt the strength of his views, but he must be prepared to consider the possibility that a genuine concern about the contribution that we as a country can make to solving the problems of the rest of the world is not the unique property of those who believe that this country should join the western half of the Continent of Europe in the particular association of the Common Market. For many people it is precisely the feeling that we are cutting the links that we have with so many other continents, where our history, our trade and our interests are so strongly established, that makes the proposition of joining Western Europe so extremely unattractive.
Having said that, I assert my belief that it is right that we should have this debate and this vote today, the first day that Parliament has resumed after the Summer Recess and the very day when
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what is to us this odious European Communities Act received the Royal Assent. It is right, too, because in two days' time the Prime Minister will be attending President Pompidou's summit in Paris and purporting to speak there for the British people.
It is right that we should raise these issues not because other matters are unimportant: on the contrary, I need not be told about the 1 million unemployed in this country and about inflation, still hyper-inflation, with no apparent breakthrough in policies for dealing with it. I need not be told that these matters are of great importance to all in this country. What amazes me is that those who recognise the importance of those problems do not also see the way in which they are essentially connected with the whole question of joining the European Communities.
Does any hon. Member seriously believe that the problem of dealing with the 1 million unemployed in Britain is not greatly influenced by the new freedom of capital movement, the new freedom for firms to locate themselves not just in Great Britain, but anywhere in Western Europe? Does anyone believe that the problem of unemployment in this country is not affected by the new arrangements into which we are now entering? Does anyone believe that the very framework within which the problem of unemployment in this country will be considered will not in future be the framework of an enlarged Community which, while it might have great surpluses of labour in this country, may also have great shortages of labour in the central areas of the Continent? It is therefore important and relevant to know in which framework we are seeking to deal with these problems, whether we are pursuing full employment within the framework of Great Britain itself, or within the framework of Western Europe.
On the subject of prices and hyper-inflation; does anyone imagine that the problem of bringing prices under control and containing inflation in this country will not be grievously affected by the commitments into which we have now entered and which will be felt shortly and sharply by everyone in this country in terms of the increase in food prices that we must experience from the beginning—1st January next year—and felt again in terms

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of the value added tax which will have to be introduced and which we shall feel so sharply in April of next year?
So do not let us pretend that we are talking about something which does not affect the lives and the prosperity of our people. The issue affects all those matters and many more besides and it is right therefore that we should have taken the first opportunity of discussing it on our return. It is also surely right that those of us who believe that the treaties and the Act are an outrage and are against the interests of this country should seek again an opportunity to express not merely our view but what we believe to be the view of the majority of our fellow countrymen, expressing that view and doing our utmost to support it with our votes later tonight.
There are two features of the debate which deserve close attention from the outset. The first is that it is taking place only because the Opposition have supplied the time to make it possible. If we had not done so the Prime Minister would have gone to the summit on Thursday with the object of making a far-reaching agreement—whether the object would be fulfilled is another matter—with the leaders of the other eight countries and without a word of explanation or advice in the House of Commons.
That is an important point, but it is no more than an augury of the things to come should the new Euro-régime dominate our affairs. It also provides evidence of how little worth we can now attach to the protestations earlier this year by Ministers in the course of the proceedings on the European Communities Bill, protestations of their desire to consult the House of Commons in all possible ways and as fully as possible before decisions were taken either in Brussels or in Paris.
I am not satisfied with the Prime Minister's explanation that it is unusual for debates to take place on matters to be discussed before the actual conference has been held. Many previous debates have been held in similar circumstances. But the point is the special relationship In Europe and the overwhelming need, as we have always argued, that these matters should be discussed in Parliament first because once things are agreed in Brussels the law of the land is decided.
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Agreement is reached at Head of State or Council of Ministers level and the laws of the land are drawn up. We must have the right to interrogate, persuade and, if need be, to stop these decisions being reached.
The other feature of the debate which is noticeable has been the refusal of the Prime Minister to play any part in it. I do not know his reasons and he has not deigned to give them. But I find it odd that on the day of the Royal Assent to what is the most controversial and far-reaching Measure probably in the history of Parliament, a Measure which will be a monument to the Prime Minister—
Mr. Russell Kerr: Or an epitaph.
Mr. Shore: —whether it will be his glory or his shame has yet to be decided. It is extraordinary on this occasion that he should decide to take no part in the debate and that he cannot bring himself to sit on the Government Front Bench during the winding-up. There are a number of reasons why he does not, and doubtless one of them is his desire to impress both this country and, still more, Europe that the whole issue of Britain and the Common Market has been settled and decided. So much and so thoroughly has it been deckled that it does not even need his presence let alone his contribution to our further debates. The House will recall that the Prime Minister has not spoken on any stage of the Bill since Second Reading on 17th February. It is fairly obvious what policy he is pursuing.
I regret that in his effort to pretend that all has been settled he has received some support from one or two of my hon. Friends during the course of the debate. This is unfortunate because what is needed above all to be communicated to Europe is not what Europeans wish to hear about the position of the Labour Party and the future of these arrangements, but what the realities are. The matter clearly has not been settled and the argument simply will not go away. The reality is that all the major assumptions that the Government have made about Britain and the Common Market have been falsified by events during this past 12 months.
First and foremost was the Prime Minister's pledge to win the support of

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the British people for his European policies. I am not going over that ground again. [Interruption.] An hon. Member says, "Thank God." It is the Prime Minister who undoubtedly thanks God that the British people have not yet had the opportunity of judging him and his European policy. Inevitably it will happen. Inevitably the time will come. The fact is that the Prime Minister believed that he would not be in the position that he is in today. He did not believe that at the end of all this debate he would be in the position when he knows he does not command the sentiment and support of the majority of the people. He was wrong on that.
Then he assumed that the imminent prospect of membership would lead to a quickening industrial revival in Britain, that the prospect of the so-called unified market of 250 million consumers would revive the spirits of British industry. Again he has been disappointed. It is 18 months since he left the Elysée Palace with the great breakthrough of the negotiations in his hand, yet despite the Chancellor's almost frantic efforts to stimulate the economy it is terribly flat. With a million unemployed and industrial investment lower in 1972 than in any year for more than a decade, with imports already beginning to flood into Britain as the first response to the Chancellor's reflation, we are not so much advancing into Europe as collapsing into it.
The Prime Minister is now reduced to making the pathetic excuse in explaining why the economy has not revived as he predicted that it is all due to the Labour Party's opposition to the proposition that we should swallow his Bill hook, line and sinker and not even seek to debate it. According to him in his interview in The Times a fortnight ago we delayed by a year the confidence of industry that we would be going into Europe. He must think of something better than that. Last of the assumptions he made and in some ways the most important—and equally false—was that he thought that Her Majesty's Opposition could be ensnared and wooed into support for his European arrangement or, failing that, that we would be brow-beaten and bullied into acquiescence by a campaign of misrepresentation and vilification of individuals which has been almost unparalleled.
Mr. Russell Kerr: £3 million-worth.
Mr. Shore: Again he is wrong. The practical consequences of these miscalculations are enormous. Without our support the Treaty of Accession cannot be made to stick. Without our agreement a Measure which transfers powers of decision from this Parliament and people to Ministers and officials in Europe is clearly unconstitutional. It can only be legitimised through a General Election or a referendum.
Now the Government are left with the hope, and it can be no more, that we would be brought to accept what we have so far strongly opposed, that our normal regard for the sanctity of treaties would over-ride our democratic commitment, our regard for constitutional principle and the rights of our people. The British people do not break treaties, the Prime Minister says. That is true, but British Governments do not breach the constitution either. They do not over-ride the rights of the British people; they do not hand over to others the right to make the laws of England or to impose taxes upon its people. The situation we now face is one that we and some hon. Members opposite warned against throughout the debates.
If we cannot resolve the dilemma we face then let there be no doubt about it, we shall know where our duty lies. Let me make the position clear. We are deeply opposed to the major matters of the Treaty of Accession. We are opposed to the Measure which has given it effect and we have said we are prepared to renegotiate the treaty. Further, we have listed the major matters we shall insist on changing including changes in the common agricultural policy, the total recasting of the Community budget both on the financing and expenditure sides and the retention by our Parliament of the necessary rights and powers over the British economy so that we can pursue effective regional, industrial, taxation and employment policies. Finally, we have said that it will not only be a future Labour Government that will have to be satisfied by the new terms but the British people who will have the right, either through a General Election or a consultative referendum, to decide the issue.
That is where we stand. Having heard the rather different contributions from behind me, I thought that my hon. Friend

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the Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh) made the point best when he said that the conditions are sweeping and far-reaching. He did not attempt to put upon them a gloss that would be misunderstood in Europe or attempt to present them in a way that frankly is far from reality.
I want to turn now to some of the main issues which we know will be on the agenda of the summit, issues which concern us very much. The first is the matter of economic and monetary union. We all know that the aim of the union is to achieve by 1980 a common Eurocurrency into which the separate national currencies will merge. We all know, too, that the main stepping stone to this end is the irrevocable fixing of existing parities to the currencies of member States. The first step towards this is a narrowing of the band around the existing parities and acceptance of the agreement to make parity changes in future only as a last resort. How much this matters to us was demonstrated in June this year. Ten weeks after our entering the first phase of the economic and monetary union, 10 weeks after our agreeing to narrow the exchange rate margins between the £ sterling and the Six, 10 weeks after joining the so-called snake in the tunnel, we were forced not simply to abandon the enterprise but to float the £, and we are still floating. In the process, in the last few days before the float took place, our reserves fell by £1,000 million. I do not know whether the point has been fully taken and understood.
The first and immediate question for answer is: has the Prime Minister agreed to end the float and to re-enter the tunnel from which he was driven only six months ago with such grievous losses? I confess that I am puzzled. Like others, I have read the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statements. The right hon. Gentleman said at the Blackpool conference:
"We intend to return to a fixed parity as soon as conditions permit, which I hope will be before January 1st."
If words have any meaning, that means that unless a new and unexpected event intervenes, the right hon. Gentleman's intention is to return to a fixed parity by 1st January, 1973. That is clearly what President Pompidou understands the Chancellor of the Exchequer to mean.
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Further, if I may call in aid other supporting evidence, there seems to me little doubt that the new urgency with which the Government are approaching the question of incomes and prices is also very much geared to the timetable that is herein envisaged. If the Government have a fixed parity again by 1st January, 1973, and the hyper-inflation which they have had in the past two years is still continuing, we all know what will happen. The evidence points to what I believe to be the case, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will fix the £ again then, and it will not be easy to change it once again after the present float has ended. Yet the Prime Minister was telling us quite clearly earlier today that no commitment has been entered into, and giving us almost to understand that he intends to carry on floating. I wish I knew what the answer was. I hope it will be that the Government will do their duty and consider our own interests in the matter, and not agree to end the float until they are completely satisfied that it is in our interests to do so.
The Government Front Bench must not be persuaded in this matter by the setting up of any new short-term European monetary fund with the ostensible purpose of tiding us over short-term difficulties. If we have learned nothing else, we should have learned by now that it is often as dangerous to be bailed out by running into debt as it is to be forced to take remedial action without the support of borrowing at all.
What is clear is that if the Prime Minister has agreed to end the float, and if he agrees with the Six that future parity changes are to be more rather than less difficult for us in the future, all the Chancellor of the Exchequer's talk of 5 per cent. growth for the next two years will turn out to be sheer humbug and deception. The two things are totally incompatible.
I turn to another matter mentioned by the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary in his all-too-brief speech. He told us of the Government's wish that there should be an offsetting arrangement of regional policy, offsetting the great contribution that we shall make to the common agricultural policy, their hope that there would be agreement on a regional policy which would siphon funds back towards this country, and their hope that

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there would be agreement on a deadline to work out such a regional policy.
I hope so, too, but this is the classic example of where the negotiations went wrong. We should not have agreed to pay out these vast sums of money under the agricultural policy—an agreement to a policy that we cannot change, because the change is subject to a veto, and France possesses the veto, and France is the great beneficiary of it—without first having got an agreement on a countervailing regional policy on which we should be as clearly and as measurably the beneficiary. It is no good the Government's saying to those in Europe, "We want this to happen". They will get some response, but the plain truth is that the veto will work the other way. If anyone imagines that we shall get a reverse flow from the Continent of Europe, over a French veto, of funds to stimulate our industries and regions equal to the outflow from this country towards French agriculture, he needs to have his head examined.
What I fear most of all is this, that we shall get a token regional fund, as part of a package under which we shall have to agree to forgo giving a large part of the present regional policy benefits which we give as part of the ordinary British State regional policy—REP and others as well.
I turn quickly—I must do so quickly because of the time—to one major matter which was raised in the debate, and that is the European Assembly and the possibilities of its reform. Let me say for myself that in principle any movement towards democratic control over Community decisions at the Community level is welcome to me—with one great proviso, that it should not be at the expense of the democratic control and power of the British democracy here in the House of Commons. What I fear at the moment is that the Government will lend their name to what is in fact a confidence trick, the pretence that the European Assembly is already, or, indeed, has even the potential of operating as a serious instrument of democracy on the European level.
The fact is that the European Assembly is not and has never been intended to be a Parliament. We should be very clear
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about this. It is not, as it were, a Parliament in the bud. It is not intended to be. It is not designed to be. It is not intended to do those things by which we recognise the existence of a genuine Parliament. It is not intended, for example, to make laws for Europe. It is not intended or designed to raise taxes and to control the expenditures of Europe. It is not designed to dismiss or appoint or even interrogate those who make the decisions in Community.
Its purpose is quite different. It is there to be consulted; it is there to give opinions; it is there as a sounding board. To give a homely comparison, it is like the Conservative Party's Annual Conference. I am not saying this with intent to give offence but I am saying it with, I hope, some accuracy, that the Conservative Party Conference is a conference which does not appoint the leaders of the Conservative Party or control them; it is a conference which does not make their policy—and certainly it is one which is very prudent in its criticism of those who are appointed and who rule on the platform. It is, in other words, a point of communication between Government and governed, leaders and led.
All this is understood by those who are familiar with European institutions. So I do not see that we can hope, even if it lay within our power, which it does not, for any great advance in the direction of the greater democracy for which the hon. Member for Lewisham, West felt we should be asking at the present time. The fact that the President of France has already indicated that he does not think there should be any change in the present status of the Assembly—certainly no change in the way members are appointed there—does not seem to me to indicate that agreement is likely to be forthcoming.
Finally, only just a word about a terribly important matter, and that is the external relations of the Community with the rest of the world. Hardly anybody has yet mentioned this in the debate, but it will be one of the most important matters on the agenda, and that is the general stance and attitude which the Community should take up in relation to the United States and other trading nations in what I hope will be fruitful negotiations over next year's trade. This is absolutely crucial.

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What I worry about most is that there is insufficient will in the Community to make a constant effort to make those negotiations work to expand the area of trade. The Community is pressing ahead with preferential trade agreements, seeking now to cover the whole of the Mediterranean area with a new free trade area arrangement. Its policies can only have the effect of dividing the world trading system at least into two and driving the Americans into precisely that kind of protectionism with all the implications which that would have, which many people have spoken about, and which we have every reason to fear.
Finally, I wish to say a word about any commitments which may come out of the summit conference. I say this to the absent Prime Minister: it may be right for the other eight political leaders to make commitments and to undertake pledges to each other, but it would not be right for our Prime Minister to do so. He will be there not because he has successfully completed the full constitutional processes of our country but because he has flouted them. He will be there not because he has obtained the full-hearted consent of the majority of our people but because he has flouted their will. He alone will be representing a country where the Opposition, the alternative Government, are wholly uncommitted by the treaties he has signed. have stated that they will not regard the Treaty obligations as binding—a country whose next Parliament has the undoubted right to repeal the European Communities Act, to halt and reverse the processes of entry, to take us out of the Community just as surely as this Parliament has sought to take us in.
The British people will not be represented at the summit this week but they will cast their shadow on all that happens there. Nothing has been settled, nothing can be settled, until the people can use their democratic right—their vote—to decide their own future.
9.32 p.m.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon): We have just listened to another rather depressing repetition of the views of the right hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore). He said something very revealing at the beginning of his speech, namely,
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that one of the Government's miscalculations was that they thought that the Opposition could be wooed into support of the European policy. It might have been a miscalculation but it was a pretty obvious miscalculation as we took over the European policy of the Labour Government.
The right hon. Member for Stepney has repeated what he always says, which is not the official view of the Labour Party, that the Opposition are deeply opposed to the Treaty and the Act and to the principle of joining Europe. So far from the Government having flouted the constitutional processes, we have followed them from the outset. A Bill has been passed in a constitutional way and it is now the law of the land. I was interested to hear the right hon. Member for Stepney talking about the will of the people being expressed in a general election or a referendum. Perhaps we are getting back to the view which used to be expressed by the Leader of the Opposition—that a referendum is not part of our constitutional process.
The right hon. Member for Stepney says, "We shall renegotiate". My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Parkinson) dealt pretty savagely with the question of the reception which the Opposition Front Bench negotiators might expect. After all that they have said over many years about their devotion to the European policy, it is curious envisaging the spectacle of the Leader of the Opposition and the Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer going around Europe and doing what the right hon. Member for Stepney suggests, namely, renegotiating a common agricultural policy which the Leader of the Opposition said over and over again was not negotiable. Then there is the curious idea of the hon. Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Deakins), which is shared by some hon. Members opposite, that we could renegotiate on the basis of having an industrial free trade area and dropping all the rest. The views expressed by the right hon. Member for Stepney tonight, as has happened so often in the past, are totally unrealistic.
The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) and others have doubted the wisdom of having this debate at this time, particularly with

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a vote at the end of it. The Leader of the Opposition did not make a very wise or constructive opening to our debate, although we must be grateful that he, in contrast to the right hon. Member for Stepney, made no attempt to raise again the matter of the principle of entry.
A number of right hon. and hon. Members have raised matters with which we dealt during the Committee stage of the European Communities Bill and which are outside the agenda for discussion at the summit. The Leader of the Opposition raised the question of defence. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has made the position in that respect clear.
Mr. Harold Wilson: I am listening to the right hon. and learned Gentleman's speech, which is a courtesy which the Prime Minister did not accord to my right hon. Friend the Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore), which shows the Prime Minister's attitude to the House of Commons on this and every other matter. So far I have not heard very much to justify my staying, but I cannot accept that the Prime Minister answered my point on defence. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman now do so?
Mr. Rippon: Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition will have the patience to listen to more than one sentence on the subject of defence.
The speech at Blackpool of my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Defence did not mark any new trend or departure in British defence policy. We have never, as the right hon. Gentleman alleged, kept our intentions hidden in this regard. Indeed, the whole question of defence was debated in the House on 15th March, 1972 in the course of the Committee Stage of the European Communities Bill. It was made clear then and on many other occasions that the Treaty of Rome has no defence content; but we all hope, and we have said so often enough, that enlargement of the Community will accelerate defence co-operation. It is manifestly too early to forecast the form of Europe's future defence policy and perfectly clear from the context of the speech of my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Defence that he was looking forward to the problems which might arise not so much in the 1970s as in the 1980s.
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As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister told the House on 11th April of this year, both he and President Pompidou take the view that the time is not ripe for discussion of Anglo-French nuclear collaboration. So I do not believe that the Leader of the Opposition can go on pretending that this is an issue for the summit this week or for the immediate future.
Many of the speeches which have been delivered this afternoon show that it is right, now that the Bill has received the Royal Assent, that we should look towards the future. I have taken part in all but one of the meetings for the preparation of the summit which is being held this week. I have found it a heartening experience sitting round the table instead of confronting the representatives of the Community, working together on what we can achieve now that the enlargement of the Community is being accomplished.
The purpose of those meetings was to prepare the agenda and to identify the issues upon which Heads of Government might he able to reach conclusions. They will not, as the right hon. Member for Stepney exaggeratedly suggested, make the laws which will immediately apply in this country. What we considered was an agenda, not a communique. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said, when the meeting has taken place the usual practice will be followed and a report made to the House of Commons.
In drawing up the agenda it was clear that there was much in common and great possibilities of charting definite future progress.
Mr. Shore: There is one point which particularly worries me, especially as we have not had the opportunity of having a debate on the Government's proposals during the course of our discussions today. At the end of the last summit a communiqué was issued—the Hague summit communiqué. That communiqué covered matters of very great importance, including the outline of economic and monetary union, and was given the status of a treaty and is accordingly listed as a treaty among the many documents which we have had to consider in the last few months. That is why I should like the right hon. and learned Gentleman's

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assurance that there will be no commitments of that kind entered into without our having had any chance to consider them.
Mr. Rippon: We had a lot of discussion about the status of the declaration made after the Hague meeting. It was felt to be of such importance in the context of enlargement that we printed it. I do not think that it is right to describe it as a treaty.
The three heads of agenda which have been agreed for this summit conference are, first, economic and monetary union, including industrial and regional policy; second, the enlarged Community's external relations and responsibiliies; and, third, institutional questions and political co-operation.
I should like to deal with some of the questions which have been raised today in that context.
Mr. Michael Foot: Will the Chancellor of the Duchy give the House an absolute undertaking that neither at this meeting nor at any subsequent meeting will an agreement be made about an economic or monetary union in Europe which will be regarded as a treaty in the sense that it will not be submitted to separate legislative treatment by this House of Commons?
Mr. Rippon: In so far as legislation is required to give effect to treaty obligations, it has to come to this House. There is no question of a communiqu£ of that kind constituting a treaty which would be immediately binding on this country in the context of economic and monetary integration. This is a matter which clearly will take a long time. It is worth bearing in mind how long it took us after the Hague communiqué to reach a situation in which we achieved enlargement of the Community. The same process will take place in this respect.
We believe that effective economic and monetary integration is essential if European countries are to exploit their economies to the full. This is a view which has been expressed by a former Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan). He was not talking of what would happen today or tomorrow but about a long-term objective. It is a long-
162
term objective which has been accepted by successive Governments.
Mr. Foot rose—
Hon. Members: Give way.
Mr. Rippon: It has been accepted by all sides in the Community, and we have made clear time and again in all the debates in this House leading up to the passing of the Act, that the enlarged Community will work together towards closer economic and monetary union. We have discussed the various stages by which this might take place—ending, perhaps many years ahead, with the ideal put forward by the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East of a common European currency.
Mr. Foot: These obviously are essential matters relating to an economic and monetary union. All we are asking is that the right hon. and learned Gentleman should now give an undertaking to the House—he does not have to do so in elaborate terms, but merely has to say "Yes"—that neither at this meeting nor at any subsequent meeting will the British Government enter into agreements about an economic or monetary union which will not be subject to full legislative processes in this House of Commons. All we are asking is that he should say that the rights of the House of Commons shall be preserved in these essential matters which can affect the whole level of employment in this country.
Mr. Rippon: The proper constitutional processes will be followed in future, as they have been in the past. That is the clear position. But we have also taken the view in the preparations for the summit—this was mentioned this afternoon by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary—that the economic and monetary aspects of European integration must be seen as two sides of the same coin and must proceed at a rate and in a manner acceptable to the interests of all the members.
We have also emphasised that a European monetary system cannot be considered in isolation; that it is inescapable that, however ingenious a European system we may devise, it will function properly only in the wider context of a healthy world monetary order. That is

163
the background against which these discussions will take place. We were equally concerned in preparation for the summit that progress should be made in the industrial and social spheres. Therefore, I particularly welcomed the speeches which were made on this aspect of the matter.
Nearly half of the manufacturing output of the United States and Western Europe now consists of projects like engineering and electronic goods and chemicals, all of which rely on advanced technology. That is why time and again in our debates in this House in the past year we have reverted to the need for a common industrial policy in the enlarged Community to cover such matters as the harmonisation of the legal and fiscal systems, elimination of trade barriers, the alignment of standards and the drawing-up of a European company statute. It is a mammoth task but is the sort of field in which a meeting of Heads of Government can begin to chart the way for the future.
There is an aspect of all this which we would ignore at our peril, and that is the need to establish a regional policy which is coherent and effective throughout Europe.
Mr. Michael Foot: Why did you not do it before?
Mr. Rippon: The hon. Gentleman asks why we did not do it before, but we were not members of the Community. That is why we have been trying over the last decade, under successive Governments, to play our part in trying to reduce the regional imbalance in Europe and in trying to ensure a fair distribution of wealth. This is one of our purposes and we intend to pursue it within the framework of the Community.
Meanwhile we will pursue our own regional policies. We shall try to get the leaders of the Community to set a date by which the Community will implement a regional policy.
Mr. Michael Foot: What about 1st January?
Mr. Rippon: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman is now becoming an enthusiast for progress in European regional policy. But what he must understand is that
164
these things will take time. Meanwhile, we shall pursue within the Community these objectives which are the objectives of the whole House. We shall seek to secure within Europe a balanced regional policy levelling out the differences which one now finds.
Meanwhile, the position is as the Commissioner responsible for these matters, Mr. Borschette pointed out on 3rd October:
"I think it is out of the question that the Commission's aid policy could radically alter British regional development policy."
Therefore, I can say categorically that the various matters which were raised by the Leader of the Opposition earlier concerning the Industry Act and Coal and Steel Community prices are irrelevant. He has the assurances which we have repeatedly given in debates on the Bill that the Industry Act is in general conformity with regional policy, and that in regard to Coal and Steel Community prices the treaty leaves pricing policy as a matter affecting the country concerned and as a matter for commercial judgment. Therefore, there is no danger of leaning on the Steel Board in that regard.
On the question of investment, which was a matter raised by the Leader of the Opposition we believe that the prospects for investment in both directions are enhanced by the enlargement of the Community and recent statistics tend to show that the trend in both directions has been rising—in other words, the net has been rising. I am sure that the Leader of the Opposition will be pleased about that. Nor do I think that we should lose sight of the wider aspects of investment, because enlargement is certainly encouraging greater United States investment in the United Kingdom.
Mr. Harold Wilson: I am obliged to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way, because he was trying to answer some questions which were not answered earlier. On the regional question, will he tell us why, if it is desirable now, he did not seek in his original negotiations a refund to this country corresponding to the amount poured out on agriculture? Further, can he tell us now whether the powers contemplated under the Industry Act will be agreed in Brussels and, although he has not yet come to this point, will he make clear,

165
as the Prime Minister did not, the position about parity in relation to 1st January?
Mr. Rippon: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has made the position perfectly clear, as has the Chancellor of the Exchequer: we shall return to fixed parity as soon as conditions permit.
As to negotiations, we negotiated on the basis which the right hon. Gentleman himself laid down. That is to say, we had to adhere to the Treaty of Rome on the basis of what the Community had achieved already. We could not conceivably negotiate, as he knows perfectly well, on what the Community might achieve in the next 10 years.
The subject of institutions has raised a great deal of interest this afternoon. We have taken an essentially pragmatic view. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Selwyn Gummer) said that we would be under pressure for direct elections. That may be so, because one wants pressure for future developments. That is why the Government, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister reminded the House, have formally endorsed the Anglo-Italian Declaration of 1969, signed by the Labour Government, which states:
"Europe must be firmly based on democratic institutions and the European Communities should be sustained by an elected Parliament as provided for in the Treaty of Rome."
The right hon. Member for Stepney was no doubt delighted when that Saragat Agreement was endorsed. He should read it again in order to refresh his memory of what he and his Government committed the country to.
But that, too, cannot be achieved overnight. That is why my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has said that we ought to get some practical experience of how the European Parliament works before we put forward radical suggestions for revising the existing structure. But the Government share the view expressed by the hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh) that the European Parliament ought increasingly to have more constructive work to do, and we have responded to the Vedel Report in that spirit.
The other matter which has occupied probably the bulk of the speeches is that of the external relations and responsibili-
166
ties of the Community in future. Clearly, if the Member States should succeed in co-ordinating policy, as increasingly they have done, in internal matters, it is no less important that they should come to do so in external relations and responsibilities. The enlarged Community will be the world's largest trading unit and will be in a great position to exert influence—we hope good influence—on international negotiations, in GATT and elsewhere leading to trade liberalisation. I think that on both sides of the House there are anxieties about the growth of protectionism.
I think that it is because the members of the enlarged Community have such a unique dependence on world trade that both our interests and our responsibilities towards developing countries march forward together because, increasingly, the more effective the Community is and the greater its own economic strength, the greater the contribution it can make to the developing world, and I feel that the whole House welcomed the speeches made by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford, the hon. Member for East Ham, South (Mr. Oram) and by my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, West.
I have just returned from a tour of Commonwealth countries in Asia and the Indian Ocean—Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Bangladesh, India, Sri Lanka, the Seychelles and Mauritius. They all have varying trading patterns which we are now able to discuss in detail with them in the context of enlargement. I found ready acceptance in all those countries that British accession to the Community will be of real benefit to the developing nations. This is what Heads of Government this week will have an opportunity of carrying forward and this is a return now to the basic idealism that the founders of the European Movement had. I hope that increasingly now hon. and right hon. Members on both sides will join, critically perhaps, as the right hon. Member for Stechford said, even cynically, perhaps, at the beginning, but will join in trying to make a contribution to the discussion in these fields.
Clearly, as regards the developing world, many people I agree, feel some disappointment at the results of UNCTAD III. I think that it may have come a year

167
too soon. But, certainly, now that we in Europe have completed our own enlargement negotiations, and completed at the end of July the various association and other agreements for the EFTA non-candidate countries, we shall, I hope, increasingly be able to turn our attention to external relations and responsibilities.
For my part, I believe that it is no good either giving relief aid or project aid or helping the countries of the developing world to develop their secondary industries or to develop their primary products and then deny them the markets essential to their trade. Now that Britain is a full member of the Community, the way is open, as many hon. Members on both sides have suggested in the debate, for a coherent and overall European policy in these three fields of aid, trade and development.
One must hope, therefore, that at the meeting of Heads of Government this week we shall seek and find new guidelines and new initiatives under the various headings of the agreed agenda—in progress towards economic and monetary union, in progress towards the development of regional and social policies, in progress towards the creation of a common industrial policy, in progress towards the development of a European Parliament and the other Community institutions necessary to meet the needs of enlargement and the demands of the future, and in progress towards coordinating our external relations and responsibilities.
I am certain that the vast majority of right hon. and hon. Members, who have the ultimate responsibility under our constitution for determining British policy and British law and who are responsible for these matters as the elected representatives, believe with my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary that, above all, the European Economic Community
is a partnership for peace. [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman sits there muttering now, but when he was Prime Minister he went all over Europe saying that the way ahead for all of us was to create this partnership for peace. He is one of the most discredited men in Europe today, and for a very good reason. He has stood on his head and spurned all the things that he told the people of this country while he was Prime Minister. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] No wonder they are confused. It has been the deliberate policy of the Leader of the Opposition—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Mr. Jeffrey Thomas: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has just spoken of my right hon. Friend in a most abusive fashion. Will he not agree that he is the gentleman who is so—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member rose to a point of order.
Mr. Rippon: I am glad to see the hon. Member here for the first time.
I believe that we now have before us prospects which will be of benefit to us, to Europe and to the Commonwealth. For so long the enlargement of the European Community and the unity of Western Europe has been an aspiration shared by many people, including right hon. Gentlemen opposite. Now, with the passing of the European Communities Act and with the summit meeting which is to take place this week, we have an opportunity to make the aspirations of those who supported the European cause for so long into a reality, a reality which will be for the benefit of us all.
Question put, That this House do now adjourn:
The House divided: Ayes 239, Noes 267.

Division No. 335.]

AYES

[10.0 p.m.

Abse, Leo

Barnett, Joel (Heywood and Royton)

Broughton, Sir Alfred

Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

Baxter, William

Brown, Robert C. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne, W.)

Allen, Scholef eld

Beaney, Alan

Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

Brown, Ronald(Shoreditch & F'bury)

Armstrong, Ernest

Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Buchan, Norman

Ashley, Jack

Bidwell, Sydney

Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

Ashton, Joe

Bishop, E. S.

Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

Atkinson, Norman

Blenkinsop, Arthur

Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

Bagier, Gordon A. T.

Boardman, K. (Leigh)

Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

Barnes, Michael

Booth, Albert

Cant, R. B.

Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

Bradley, Tom

Carmichael, Neil

Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

Hunter, Adam

Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

Parker, John (Dagenham)

Clark, David (Colne Valley)

Janner, Greville

Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

Pavitt, Laurie

Cohen, Stanley

Jeger, Mrs. Lena

Pendry, Tom

Concannon, J. D

Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

Pentland, Norman

Conlan, Bernard

Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

Perry, Ernest G.

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

John, Brynmor

Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

Cox, Thomas (Wndsworth, C.)

Johnson, Carol (Lewisham. S.)

Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

Crawshaw, Richard

Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

Price, William (Rugby)

Cronin, John

Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

Probert, Arthur

Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Rankin, John

Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

Da yell, Tam

Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

Rees. Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

Davidson, Arthur

Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

Rhodes, Geoffrey

Davies, Denz l (Llanelly)

Kaufman, Gerald

Richard, Ivor

Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

Kelley, Richard

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Davies, Ifor (Gower)

Kerr, Russell

Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)

Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

Lambie, David

Robertson, John (Paisley)

Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove)

Lamborn, Harry

Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Brc'n&R'dnor)

Deakins, Eric

Lamond, James

Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

Latham, Arthur

Rose, Paul B.

Delargy, Hugh

Leadbitter, Ted

Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

Rowlands, Ted

Dempsey, James

Leonard, Dick

Sandelson, Neville

Doig, Peter

Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

Dormand, J. D.

Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

Lipton, Marcus

Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

Douglas-Mann, Bruce

Lomas, Kenneth

Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

Driberg, Tom

Loughlin, Charles

Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

Dunn, James A.

Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

Sillars, James

Eadie, Alex

Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

Silverman, Julius

Edelman, Maurice

McBride, Neil

Skinner, Dennis

Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

McCartney, Hugh

Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

Ellis, Tom

McGuire, Michael

Spearing, Nigel

English, Michael

Mackenzie, Gregor

Spriggs, Leslie

Evans, Fred

Mackie, John

Stallard, A. W.

Ewing, Harry

Mackintosh, John P.

Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

Faulds, Andrew

McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

Stoddart, David (Swindon)

Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

McNamara, J. Kevin

Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

Strang, Gavin

Foot, Michael

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

Ford, Ben

Marks, Kenneth

Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

Forrester, John

Marsden, F.

Swain, Thomas

Fraser, John (Norwood)

Marshall, Dr. Edmund

Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

Freeson, Reginald

Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

Galpern, Sir Myer

Meacher, Michael

Torney, Tom

Garrett, W. E.

Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

Tuck, Raphael

Gilbert, Dr. John

Mendelson, John

Urwin, T. W.

Ginsburg, David (Dewsbury)

Milne, Edward

Varley, Eric G.

Golding, John

Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen)

Wainwright, Edwin

Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

Gourlay, Harry

Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

Wallace, Georgo

Grant, George (Morpeth)

Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

Watkins, David

Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

Weitzman, David

Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

Moyle, Roland

Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

Murray, Ronald King

Whitehead, Phillip

Hardy, Peter

Oakes, Gordon

Whitlock, William

Harper, Joseph

Ogden, Eric

Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

O'Halloran, Michael

Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

Hattersley, Roy

O'Malley, Brian

Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

Heffer, Eric S.

Oram, Bert

Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

Hilton, W. S.

Orme, Stanley

Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

Hooson, Emlyn

Oswald, Thomas

Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

Woof, Robert

Huckfield, Leslie

Padley, Walter

Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Paget, R. T.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Hughes, Mark (Durham)

Paisley, Rev. Ian

Mr. James Hamilton and

Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

Palmer, Arthur

Mr. James Wellbeloved.

Hughes, Roy (Newport)

NOES

Adley, Robert

Batsford, Brian

Bowden, Andrew

Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

Braine, Sir Bernard

Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

Bell, Ronald

Bray, Ronald

Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

Brewis, John

Astor, John

Benyon, W.

Brinton, Sir Tatton

Atkins, Humphrey

Berry, Hn. Anthony

Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

Awdry, Daniel

Biggs-Davison, John

Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

Blaker, Peter

Bruce-Gardyne, J.

Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

Bryan, Sir Paul

Balniel, Rt. Hon. Lord

Boscawen, Hn. Robert

Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Bossom, Sir Clive

Buck, Antony

170

171

Bullus, Sir Eric

Hill, James (Southampton. Test)

Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

Burden, F. A.

Holland, Philip

Pink, R. Bonner

Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

Holt, Miss Mary

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray & Nairn)

Hordern, Peter

Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

Carlisle, Mark

Hornby, Richard

Proudfoot, Wilfred

Carr, Rt. Kn. Robert

Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

Cary, Sir Robert

Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

Quennell, Miss J. M.

Channon, Paul

Hunt, John

Raison, Timothy

Chapman, Sydney

Iremonger, T. L.

Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

James, David

Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

Chichester-Clark, R.

Jenkins, Patrick (Woodford)

Redmond, Robert

Churchill, W. S.

Jessel, Toby

Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

Rees, Peter (Dover)

Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Jopling, Michael

Rees-Davies, W. R.

Cockeram, Eric

Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

Cooke, Robert

Kaberry, Sir Donald

Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

Coombs, Derek

Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine

Ridsdale, Julian

Cooper, A. E.

Kimball, Marcus

Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

Cordle, John

King, Tom (Bridgwater)

Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

Corfield, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick

Kinsey, J. R.

Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

Costain, A. P.

Kirk, Peter

Rost, Peter

Crouch, David

Kilson, Timothy

Royle, Anthony

Crowder, F. P.

Knight, Mrs. Jill

Russell, Sir Ronald

Dalkeith, Earl of

Knox, David

St. John-Stevas, Norman

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Lambton, Lord

Scott, Nicholas

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid.Maj.-Gen. Jack

Lamort, Norman

Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

Dean, Paul

Lane, David

Shelton, William (Clapham)

Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

Langford-Holt, Sir John

Simeons, Charles

Dixon, Piers

Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

Sinclair, Sir George

Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

Le Marchant, Spencer

Skeet, T. H. H.

du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

Dykes, Hugh

Lloyd, Rt.Hn.Geoffrey(Sut'nC'field)

Soref, Harold

Eden, Rt. Hn. Sir John

Longden, Sir Gilbert

Speed, Keith

Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

Loveridge, John

Spence, John

Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

Luce, R. N.

Sproat, Iain

Emery, Peter

McAdden, Sir Stephen

Stainton, Keith

Eyre, Reginald

MacArthur, Ian

Stanbrook, Ivor

Farr, John

McCrindle, R. A.

Steel, David

Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

McLaren, Martin

Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)

Fidler, Michael

Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Maurice (Farnham)

Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

McNair-Wilson, Michael

Stokes, John

Fookes, Miss Janet

McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

Fortescue, Tim

Maddan, Martin

Sutcliffe, John

Foster, Sir John

Madel, David

Tapsell, Peter

Fowler, Norman

Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

Fox, Marcus

Maude, Angus

Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

Fry, Peter

Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

Tebbit, Norman

Galbraith. Hn. T. G. D.

Mawby, Ray

Temple, John M.

Gardner, Edward

Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

Thatcher, Ht. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

Gibson-Watt, David

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

Mills, Peter (Torrington)

Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

Miscampbell, Norman

Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

Glyn, Dr. Alan

Mitrhpll Lt -Col C (Aberdeenshire, W)

Trafford, Dr. Anthony

Goodhart, Philip

Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

Trew, Peter

Goodhew, Victor

Money, Ernie

Tugendhat, Christopher

Gower, Raymond

Monks, Mrs. Connie

van Straubenzee, W. R.

Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

Monro, Hector

Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

Gray, Hamish

Montgomery, Fergus

Waddington, David

Green, Alan

More, Jasper

Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

Grylls, Michael

Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

Wall, Patrick

Gummer, J. Selwyn

Morrison, Charles

Ward, Dame Irene

Gurden, Harold

Murton, Oscar

Warren, Kenneth

Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

Nabarro, Sir Gerald

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Hall-Davis A. G. F.

Neave, Airey

Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

Nicholls, Sir Harmar

Wiggin, Jerry

Hannam, John (Exeter)

Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

Wilkinson, John

Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

Normanton, Tom

Winterton, Nicholas

Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

Nott, John

Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

Hastings, Stephen

Onslow, Cranley

Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

Havers, Michael

Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

Woodnutt, Mark

Hawkins, Paul

Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

Worsley, Marcus

Hay, John

Osborn, John

Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

Hayhoe, Barney

Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

Younger, Hn. George

Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby)

Heseltine, Michael

Page, John (Harrow, W.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Hicks, Robert

Pardoe, John

Mr. Walter Clegg and

Higgins, Terence L.

Parkinson, Cecil

Mr. Bernard Weatherill.

Hiley, Joseph

Percival, Ian

Question accordingly negatived.

ANGLESEY MARINE TERMINAL BILL [Lords] (By Order)
Order for Third Reading read. [Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified]
Mr. Speaker: I have not selected the Amendment of the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) and his hon. Friends, "That the Bill be read the Third time upon this day six months".
Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
Mr. John Farr: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I should like to draw your attention to certain contents of the Bill relating to a date that has already passed. Before the House proceeds with the Bill it should be aware of the fact that in 11 or 12 places the Bill refers to 1st October, 1972, a date that passed some 16 days ago.
Mr. Speaker: That cannot possibly be a point of order. It is a matter of the content of the Bill. It may be right or wrong, but it is not a matter of order.
Mr. Farr: I intended to seek your guidance, Mr. Speaker, whether it was proper for a Bill of this nature, containing a number of consequential enactments, to go ahead although the date upon which some parts of the Bill are to become effective has already passed. I seek your guidance on whether the House should proceed with the Bill at all.
Mr. Speaker: That is a question of argument, not of order. It may be a good reason for opposing the Third Reading of the Bill, but it is not a matter upon which I can intervene.
10.15 p.m.
Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: The Bill is now familiar territory to most hon. Members and I sought to cover it extensively in the speech I made on Second Reading. I know of no Private Member's Bill which has received a closer scrutiny in the other place and in the House of Commons and in a five-week public inquiry in Anglesey. We should not forget that over a period of two
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years the Anglesey County Council, promoters of the Bill, have discussed it carefully and have voted overwhelmingly in its favour on two occasions.
I shall seek to be as brief as possible in view of the limitation on time. The Bill will enable the Anglesey County Council to assume control of the port of Amlwch and to permit Shell U.K. to construct two single buoy moorings offshore into which tankers would discharge crude oil into two pipelines carrying oil to the shore. These would go to a tank storage installation at Rhosgoch and thereafter to Shell's refinery at Stanlow on Merseyside. The two later stages of the project are not the subject of the Bill.
The pipeline from Amlwch and the storage tanks at Rhosgoch were the subjects of the five-week planning inquiry to which I referred, as a result of which the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Secretary of State for Wales has given his consent. The pipeline from Rhosgoch to Stanlow was the subject of an inquiry under the Pipe-lines Act, 1962, in the summer, the outcome of which is now awaited.
In the event, the Bill as it now comes before the House has not been greatly amended in principle, although there are a number of technical amendments to take into account, the special interests of such bodies as the Post Office and the Central Electricity Generating Board, and to allow for local government reorganisation. There are two new Clauses to which I shall refer in a moment. The purpose of constructing the SBMs and their associated facilities is, as hon. Members will recall, to provide a deep-water terminal capable of handling tankers up to the largest size foreseeable to serve the Stanlow refinery, which is being doubled in size over the next few years to meet the anticipated growth of demand for oil products in the North-West, especially heavy fuel oil for industry.
The economic implications of the Bill are not therefore confined to my constituency or to North Wales. They are even more important economically and industrially for the great cities and industries of the North-West. There has been some discussion whether Shell is justified in assuming this growth in

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demand, and the House may be interested in hearing the view of an independent witness who gave evidence before the Select Committee. He is Professor Colin Robinson of the University of Surrey, a leading expert on energy forecasting techniques. He told the Select Committee that he believed the total demand for energy in this country in 1980 would be of the order of 420 million tons of coal equivalent, or roughly 250 million tons of oil. That is assuming an average growth of gross national product of 3 per cent. and of this he expected about 230 million tons of coal equivalent—approximately 135 million tons of oil—to be met by oil.
At present about 36 per cent. of United Kingdom oil consumption is in the area covered by the Stanlow refinery and in Professor Robinson's view the growth in this area will be greater than in the United Kingdom as a whole and the pattern is likely to continue for the rest of the decade. Almost half of Stanlow's present output, consisting mainly of heavy fuel oil, goes to industry, and the present expectation is that this will continue. I mention that because the major source of the crude oil which yields fuel oil is still the Middle East. So far as can be predicted at this stage, it will continue to be so and to be conveyed in very large tankers. This lies at the root of the need to find suitable reception facilities away from the Mersey but accessible to the refinery at Stanlow.
Mr. Gerald Kaufman: My right hon. Friend is quoting from earlier evidence. Did he not see the speech of the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry at the Conservative Party Conference on Friday when he said that by 1980 half of Britain's oil requirements would be met from the North Sea? Has he not seen the report in today's Daily Telegraph from Mr. David Fleming, a marine expert from Shell-Esso and oil adviser to the Bank of Scotland who says that at least 60 per cent. of Britain's oil will be provided by the North Sea for as long as can be foreseen. If I catch Mr. Deputy Speaker's eye I shall be elaborating on this point, but would my right hon. Friend not agree that this evidence, later than his, contra-
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dicts a great deal of the case he is making?
Mr. Hughes: I take the point, and it is important. I will seek to deal with the North Sea oil position. There are many experts on this but in the main we rely on the experts called by the promoters and opponents of the Bill before the Select Committees of this House and of another place. My hon. Friend will be aware that the Select Committee of this House made a unanimous recommendation—
Mr. Kaufman: I accept what my right hon. Friend says, but would he not accept that the expert I am quoting is from Shell? Would he not further agree that since these proceedings took place we have had three major oil finds in the North Sea which transforms the North Sea oil position?
Mr. Hughes: I have not read the evidence of the expert from Shell to which my hon. Friend refers. All I would say at this stage is that it is highly unlikely that a company such as Shell would spend £55 million on this scheme if it thought it could proceed in another way.
Mr. Tom Ellis: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Chairman of Shell has within the past 12 months expressed great concern about the possibility of our looking down the muzzle of a gun, as he puts it, before the end of the century as a result of a shortage in world reserves of oil?
Mr. Hughes: I am afraid that I am not being allowed to develop my argument, and I must get on. I was referring to suitable facilities. The whole object of the project is to build a terminal to handle the large quantities of oil which, as I understand it, will be needed by this country in coming years, in a way which is economic and which provides real safeguards against pollution.
Pollution is a source of great concern to all hon. Members and it is of considerable concern to me as the Member for the constituency concerned. No one can pretend that the north coast of Wales and Liverpool are free from the threat of pollution. It is to the credit of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board that it foresaw this threat and the risk implied by the increased tanker traffic in the

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Mersey when the scheme was first mooted. The objectors to the Bill have expressed anxiety about the possible pollution risk of the SBM operation. For example, the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr), who has been the most persistent opponent of the Bill throughout its long passaage, referred during his speech on Report to the question of the SBM at Durban and the repeated allegation that the Durban buoy had been the source of serious pollution to the beaches in that area. This has been repeated in certain newspapers and periodicals.
I do not want to overstate my case, but it is reasonable to say that the objectors have relied to a large extent on this allegation although it has been fully refuted in the Press on a number of occasions. We are fortunate tonight to have with us a number of colleagues, including my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden), who have just returned from a visit to that area and who have seen the single buoy mooring at Durban and the installation there. I stress that my hon. Friends were in South Africa independently of the Anglesey County Council or of Shell. I hope that my hon. Friend will be given the opportunity later in the debate to give his first-hand impressions of what he saw there.
In view of that, and as the matter was so fully ventilated before the two Select Committees, and both were satisfied that the Durban SBM was being operated in such a way as to pose no threat of oil pollution to the beaches there, I will say only that the South African authorities have once again stated that they have no criticism to make of the buoy. At the risk of extending my speech beyond the limits I set myself, perhaps hon. Members should hear the terms in which the South African Department of Industries recently pronounced on this very point. It said:
"At the request of Shell and BP South African Petroleum Refineries (Pty) Ltd, I wish to confirm that the position is still unchanged. Despite a few very minor spillages which occurred at the SBM—incidents which have been dealt with expeditiously and effectively by the managing company—this Department still considers the SBM a satisfactory facility, and we are satisfied that the incidents of beach pollution which have thus far occurred along the Durban beaches can in no way be ascribed to the operations of the SBM. This statement is made on the strength of tests which are
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being carried out from time to time and the close watch which is being kept during these incidents."
There is the evidence—
Mr. Farr: I do not know the date of that statement, but no doubt the right hon. Gentleman is familiar with the reports from the South African Houses of Parliament this year, which show that several Members of Parliament with constituencies adjacent to Durban have expressed exactly the opposite views.
Mr. Hughes: The date of the statement was last August. I am aware of the debates in the South African Parliament and have read its HANSARD of the debate to which the hon. Gentleman refers. The hon. Gentleman is an experienced parliamentarian, as all of us are. After reading that report, I was not at all impressed, and do not agree that a number of South African Members of Parliament would support the allegation the hon. Gentleman has persistently made. I hope that the House will join me in hoping that these unfounded allegations can now be laid to rest. They do nothing but confuse the issue and create alarm and despondency among my constituents without any foundation. I hope that if the hon. Gentleman is to produce any evidence he will produce something which is rather better than that. I believe that the House will join me in hoping that these rumours will now come to an end.
I come to one last point before dealing briefly with the two Amendments. Since we last discussed the Bill on Report, there have been a number of important discoveries of oil in the North Sea to add to those already announced. It has been argued by the Bill's opponents that those discoveries eliminate the need for the single buoy mooring. The discoveries are very important to this country, but they do not do away with the need for the single buoy mooring, for two reasons. First, they are so located that wherever they are landed in this country the major part will be landed by tanker, including any that may make their way to supply Stanlow. Secondly, the nature of the oil market in the North West demands an exceptionally high proportion of heavy fuel oil, which in its turn is derived from the types of crude oil which, so far as

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can be foreseen now, will continue to be brought in from traditional sources.
In either case, the single buoy mooring would have an important part to play. To those hon. Members who believe that the oil will be directed to refineries on the East Coast—a red herring—I can only say that according to my information the major part of the overheads in marketing oil is the stage from the gates of the refinery to the eventual consumer. Clearly, refineries on the East Coast are not well sited for access by customers on Merseyside or in the great Lancashire industrial complex.
Finally, I come to the two Amendments to which I referred earlier. The first was new Clause 49.
Mr. Raymond Gower: I assure the right hon. Gentleman that I am not hostile generally to this thesis, but could he answer this question? It has been asserted in various organs of the Press, and particularly in the New Stateman, that the economic advantages to Anglesey will not be commensurate with the possible damage to the amenities. As the Member of Parliament for Anglesey, is he satisfied that that is not the case?
Mr. Hughes: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the reasonable way he put his point. What I would say to him is that Anglesey County Council, representing the people of Anglesey, has considered this in depth over two years, and on two occasions has voted overwhelmingly in favour of the Bill. Anglesey county councillors, who live in the constituency, have a closer vested interest in the cleanliness of the beaches of Anglesey than hon. Members who represent remote parts of rural England. I do not want to put it higher than that. Anglesey county councillors are not fools.
I hope the hon. Gentleman will take it from me that I also have considered this very carefully. Certainly I do not want to see the beaches of Anglesey polluted. The pollution which has taken place and is taking place is from ships breaking the law passed by this House and clearing their bunkers out at sea. It could be argued strongly that this Bill is an amenity Measure, in the sense that if lanker traffic along the North Wales
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coast intensifies in the future, there will be real danger of collisions that would damage the North Wales coast and the North Wales tourist industry for a very long time to come. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving me the opportunity to say that.
New Clause 49 reads:
"Except with the consent of the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and of the Secretary of State for Wales, the Company shall not use or permit to be used the Company's works for the loading into vessels of crude oil."
This was added at the request of the promoters to allay the concern of the petitioners as to the apparently greater risk of pollution from SBMs used for loading. The conditions which have created problems at loading terminals in some of the remoter parts of the world—distance from shore, sand damage to valves, inexperienced local labour, and, in one instance, civil war—are not likely to be reproduced in Anglesey. Looking at it realistically, the likelihood of the buoy being required for loading is a remote contingency. Nevertheless, the promoters have inserted that Clause and hon. Members will agree that proper safeguards have been built in.
The second of the Amendments was tabled by the hon. Member for Harborough on Report. It laid down that where possible the pipelines which connect the buoy to the shore shall be buried in the sea bed. I am grateful to him for putting that Amendment down. I am glad that the promoters have accepted it.
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for Wales, and to the Under Secretary for Trade and Industry for being present this evening. I have some short questions. I shall be grateful if they would assist the House by answering them. It is important that the Bill should be clarified completely. Would the Secretary of State comment on the project from two points of view? The answer would help with the question by the hon. Member for Barry (Mr. Gower). It concerns the immediate and long-term impact on the economy of Anglesey, the provision of jobs, and the implications for the prevention of pollution. In this connection he might also comment on the report which the inspector made to him.
Would the Under-Secretary of State he good enough to confirm that he is satisfied that the Bill gives his Department

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adequate powers to control the design, construction and operation of the SBM and its ancillary installations? Since his Department has overall responsibility for marine pollution, would he comment on this? Would he state whether, in the view of his Department, the project as a whole would be beneficial to the economy of Wales and the North-West of England and the country at large? It would be helpful if the Minister dealt with this point.
The hon. Member for Harborough raised the point of retrospection. I do not see any difficulty in preserving 1st October, 1972, as the effective date for the transfer of Amlwch Harbour undertaking, even though it will be retrospective. The practical effect will be that the county council will be responsible for any net expenditure from that date and can simply undertake to reimburse this to the urban district council. The amount is likely to be quite trivial. There may be no sum at all because the port of Amlwch, which has been standing idle since the copper trade came to an end in the last century, will be modernised and made attractive. That is one of the advantages of the Bill.
As the Member for Anglesey, I welcome this project and congratulate my county council on deciding to promote the Bill. I am satisfied that it will be carried out in a way which will not be harmful. I believe that the county, which will control and run the operation, will benefit in many ways from the enterprise. I am glad to think that we may make a small contribution to the general efficiency of British industry on which our future as a country depends.
I am grateful to all hon. Members who have taken a critical look at the Bill. That is the function and duty of hon. Members. However, after the most careful scrutiny at every stage, I hope that the Bill will be given a Third Reading.
10.37 p.m.
Mr. Wyn Roberts: On Second Reading I expressed concern about the danger of pollution resulting from spillages from the proposed terminal and the effect it would have on the tourist trade of the North Wales coastal resorts, particularly those in my constituency—Llandudno, Deganwy, Conway, Penmacnmawr and Llanfairfechan—which
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are heavily dependent on tourism for their prosperity. Clean beaches are the best advertisement for any resort while pollution, especially oil pollution, is anathema.
Recent reports from South Africa have tended to confirm my worst fears about the possible consequences of an Anglesey terminal. They state that Shell and British Petroleum have experienced
"a great deal of trouble with their single offshore mooring buoy"
situated about two miles offshore at Reunion Rocks on Durban's Bluff. I picked up this report in the Library which appeared in the June edition of the British Commonwealth Shipping Group's magazine Clansman. It reads:
"The prevailing swift current, together with the exposed site, have time and again proved too much for the oil flow pipes which have recently ruptured for the ninth time since the buoy was brought into service 18 months ago. Concern has been voiced by the various antipollution committees (both official and unofficial) existing in Durban, as well as the City Council and Publicity Association, who are worried about the damage oil slicks are doing to Durban's beaches, already badly fouled".
I am well aware that there has been a lot of oil pollution at Durban which is not directly attributable to the oil terminal. The quotation continues:
"Polluted beaches could prove the death knell to Durban's multi-million rand tourist industry".
Neither the right hon. Member for Anglesey nor I want that sort of thing to happen in North Wales. We do not want to risk it happening. If we lose our tourism income, we shall be well and truly lost, Anglesey included. I understand that Anglesey gains more than £5 million a year from tourism. Compared with this, the county's possible income from the terminal is minimal. North Wales's total income from tourism runs to tens of millions of pounds. Once the area got a bad reputation, which is very easily gained, for oil pollution—the threat would be there if we agreed to this terminal—we should stand to lose a great deal.
I have been studying these reports from South Africa, including the South African Parliament's Hansard report for the debate on 1st March 1972. What worries me is not only the frequency of the spillages at Durban but the intractable nature of the pollution problem and

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the apparent lack of any arrangement for compensation to those interests which might be adversely affected.
Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: I have listened carefully to what the hon. Gentleman has said about tourism. Does he agree that the tourist trade in Pembrokeshire has increased substantially year by year over the last 10 years in spite of the massive oil trade which goes on at Milford Haven?
Mr. Roberts: I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that Pembrokeshire does not have a terminal such as that which is proposed for Anglesey and such as that which operates off Durban.
I will tell the House a few more facts about the terminal at Durban. We can all agree that the spillages from the Durban terminal have been very numerous. They have been estimated at 33 spillages totalling 80 tons of oil in the months between September, 1970, and August, 1972, when admittedly 12 million tons of oil were discharged. Therefore, the spillage was perhaps a fraction of a fraction, but enough to cause a furore in the South African Parliament.
Mr. Gower: Were the safeguards which were insisted upon by the South African authorities similar to or different from those embodied in this Bill?
Mr. Roberts: I am coming to that. I understand that much of the damage at Durban has been caused by faulty pipelines. I am not sure whether a new kind of pipeline buried in the seabed would help to prevent rupture and spillage, because I understand that the faulty pipelines at Durban have been those leading to the seabed rather than those lying upon it.
What is clear is that as late as April of this year the trouble had still not been cured and the general manager of Shell-BP Refinery at Durban was reported in the Press as saying:
"We must be sure we can operate the buoy safely."
In reply to a demand that the buoy be closed down permanently, he said that the faults were being slowly but thoroughly ironed out. As far as I am aware, that process has still not been completed.
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I am sure that the right hon. Member for Anglesey will understand that I do not want to be in the same position as the South African Member of Parliament Mr. W. V. Raw who withdrew his objection to the Durban terminal after assurances had been given that there would be no pollution and that, if there were, it could be controlled immediately and eliminated. In the debate on 1st March he was a sadder and wiser man and he told one of the South African Ministers concerned that if he came to swim at Durban's Addington Beach and then went home to dry and scrape the oil off his feet he would find that a week later he would still be scraping the oil off his feet. Mr. Raw went on to say:
"The nature of the oil that is coming ashore there is such that it is making these beaches so unpleasant that people cannot use them and it is having an effect on the normal economy of Durban."
Another Member of Parliament, Mr. Mitchell, said on 1st March that spraying detergents on the oil slicks did not dispose of the oil. This point was admitted by the South African Minister of Transport, who said:
"The hon. Member is quite right when he says that oil detergents are of very little help in the process of dispersing oil. It disperses oil but the oil forms blobs which go on to the beach. Much better methods must be adopted if we want to cover that aspect …".
What kind of detergents will be needed, and used, off Anglesey? Will they be any more effective? As I understand it, they will be precisely the same detergents as those which have proved so ineffective at Durban.
Then there is the matter of compensation—
Mr. Elystan Morgan: Even putting the hon. Gentleman's case at its highest, what he is saying is that a new peril will be brought into being in substitution for a peril which already exists from spillages from transfer of oil at sea and through collision. Will he not accept in relation to the substituted peril the evidence of Dr. J. H. Simpson, Lecturer in Physical Oceanography at the North Wales University, Bangor, an independent witness called by the objectors to the Bill, when he said in reply to cross-examination:
"I think that if oil has to come into the country the single buoy mooring may be the way to do it"?

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So despite everything the hon. Gentleman is saying, it would appear that the substituted system is one which is infinitely safer than the system which exists at present.
Mr. Roberts: The fear that exists at the moment is not comparable with the fear that exists in Durban as a result of their actual experience of this terminal.
I come to the point about compensation. Of course local authorities will be compensated for clearance work, but what about hoteliers and others who suffer from a fast or slow decline in trade? There is no provision for compensation for damage of this kind, so far as I can see, either in this Bill or anywhere else.
To sum up, the proposed terminal clearly involves risk—I put it no higher than that—to our tourist industry in North Wales, an industry which is a very important stay of our economy, an industry which has a very bright future, especially when the new A55 road is built. Is this risk worth taking? It might be worth taking if what we sought to gain was commensurate with what we sought to lose, but clearly, even in South African terms, it is not commensurate.
Mr. Gwynoro Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman say whether this is the Welsh Office's view, or is he saying this as his resignation speech as Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Secretary of State?
Mr. Roberts: It is surely abundantly clear to the House that I am speaking as a constituency Member. The risk might be worth taking if it were minimal, but the Durban experience shows that it is not. What assurances we have had from South Africa come surely from interested parties. This is why I remain unconvinced of the merits of this Bill.
Mr. Goronwy Roberts: The hon. Gentleman has referred to his own fears about the possibility of pollution of the shores of Caernarvonshire, representation of which I share with him, though I do not share his fears on this score. Could he say whether Caernarvonshire County Council has objected to this Bill? Almost the whole of Caernarvonshire county is coastline and very dependent on a flourishing tourist industry. What is the attitude of the county council?
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Secondly, could he enlighten us as to the objections, if any, by the county council or the local authorities of the adjacent county of Denbigh, in which are found some very important tourist centres, particularly on the Denbighshire coast? Have they had anything to say in objection to this Bill on the grounds advanced by him?
Finally—if he goes along the coast—will he tell us of the attitude of the Flint-shire County Council? Perhaps he will know what Rhyl and other notable tourist resorts on the Flintshire coast have to say on this point.
Is he not straining at a highly improbable hazard in the face of an ever-present hazard arising, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. Cledwyn Hughes) has pointed out, from the facts of the situation on Merseyside and in Liverpool Bay facing the northwest coast, where spillages from collision at sea are very much more a danger than what is proposed?
Mr. Gwyn Roberts: The right hon. Gentleman asked me a series of rhetorical questions—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] He knows well enough that certainly the Caernarvonshire County Council does not, as far as I am aware, object to the Bill. That goes very largely for other county councils which may have objected to the Bill but have since withdrawn their objections.
But what I would like the right hon. Gentleman to concentrate his mind upon, as I have concentrated my mind upon it since I began my speech and since I referred to particular resorts whose views I express, is the fact that there is—and he knows it—a great deal of concern among the tourist interests in the North Wales area. They are right to be concerned. They have not expressed this concern unduly because they are fearful, as every resort is fearful, that even a rumour of pollution in the vicinity drives tourists away, and he knows as well as I do that there is a real fear that this terminal will cause pollution in North Wales.
10.53 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Peter Emery): As a representative of the Department of Trade and Industry I have been asked two direct

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questions and it might help the House if I were to try to answer them now, because it would be foolish not to accept that there must be concern among people about the possibility of spillage and pollution. It is therefore right that the facts as far as one is able to provide them, should be given to the House. At this stage, therefore, an intervention might help hon. Members—not that I wish in any way to interfere with the debate on a Private Bill—to make an assessment in what they may have to say.
There is no reason to suppose that the risk of spillage from a monobuoy mooring is any greater than the risk of spillage from an ordinary unloading facility of a marine character at a jetty or anywhere else. It is also important that people should know that it would be quite wrong of me to say that there is no risk. There is a risk. I have tried to think of a comparison, having myself been somewhat concerned with the matter, and I would say that the risk is like the risk of falling over and killing oneself in the bath: it does happen, but one does not legislate for it. It is not the sort of thing one would normally bring into consideration when dealing with normal problems of safety in its many aspects.
A certain amount of reference has been made in the debate to the case in Durban. My attention has been drawn to a letter from the Department of Industries of South Africa, to which, I believe, the right hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. Cledwyn Hughes) referred, in which it is said:
"This Department … is satisfied that the incidents of beach pollution which have so far occurred along the Durban beaches can in no way be ascribed to the operations of the single buoy mooring. This statement is made on the strength of tests which are being carried out from time to time and the close watch which is being kept during these incidents."
That was dated 23rd August this year.
I draw that letter to the attention of the House only because in the matter of tourism and the fear of pollution of our beaches—I represent a holiday constituency, so I am as conscious of the problem, I am sure, as is my hon. Friend the Member for Conway (Mr. Wyn Roberts)—it is imperative to assure
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people locally that we are not, just for the sake of industry, willing to cast aside a section of the country or of beach in any part of Wales or, indeed, anywhere else.
There is in the Humber an illustration of the operation of a monobuoy mooring, where, since January, 1971, there have been two minor spillages—much less, as I suggested a minute ago, than at the Humber quay itself. It was possible for both of these to be cleared up by the craft which is kept in attendance at the monobuoy specifically for this purpose.
That is the sort of information, I think, which local authorities and tourist organisations ought to have at their disposal, as also should the House when trying to make a judgment on the Bill.
Next, I was asked whether I considered that there was a matter of safety here involved. The Bill gives the Secretary of State powers to approve plans and sections before work is begun, to approve alterations, to abate the works in case of abandonment or decay, to survey and to direct that during construction, or any alteration, all necessary steps shall be taken, including the lighting of the works, for the prevention of danger to navigation.
Such powers are standard. They are standard form in Private Acts authorising works in tidal waters. I am satisfied—this is what I was asked—that these powers will enable the Secretary of State to discharge satisfactorily his responsibilities for safety at sea and for safeguarding the public right of navigation.
Finally, I was asked whether the Department believed that the project would be of benefit to the area. I believe that there should be wide economic benefits from the enlargement of this refinery. It will be of obvious benefit to have the cost-effectiveness of large tanker unloading. There is a need in North Wales and in the North-West to have as cheap a fuel structure as is humanly possible. This is not only a matter of economics. It is a matter of industrial growth, and a matter of jobs and all that goes with that. It therefore seems to the Department that there will be a direct economic benefit not only to North Wales but to the North-West region generally.

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I hope that those few remarks, in response to the questions put to me, will be of some help to the House.
11.0 p.m.
Mr. Gerald Kaufman: I welcome the presence and intervention of the Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. May I put to him a factual question for which he may not have the information at the moment? I hope, however, that he will be able to provide us with an answer during the debate as it is a matter of importance. My right hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. Cledwyn Hughes) said that Shell Oil would clearly be unwilling to be responsible for the outlay of £55 million unless it thought it was a worthwhile project. I should be grateful if, during the debate, the Under-Secretary of State could tell the House the amount of financial aid that the Government will provide towards the £55 million. The calculations in the documents which I have studied indicate that the outlay for the Government would be about £20 million. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden) has indicated that that would still leave about £35 million, but obviously £20 million worth of aid is something which cannot be sneezed at.
In opposing the Third Reading of the Bill, I should like at the outset to pay a tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey for the work which he does for his constituency and for the way in which he has sought to get the Bill through the House. I have no doubt that he does so because he believes that the Bill is in the interests of his constituents. If I disagree with him, I do not do so because I presume in any way to tell him what is good for his constituents, just as I know that he would not presume to tell me what is good for mine. On the other hand, my right hon. Friend has fairly said that the implications of the Bill go wider than his constituency. He has said that the implications include the North-West of England, which by inference includes my constituency. Therefore, just as my constituents have a vested interest in the maintenance of the amenities of Anglesey, as a great many of them go there on holiday, they also have a vested interest in whatever economic benefits or debits may come from the Bill. I hope that my
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right hon. Friend will accept that in opposing the Bill I am not seeking to interfere with his representation of Anglesey, which every hon. Member respects.
In opposing the Bill I will state a number of arguments which it seems have not been sufficiently considered. I trust that the House will bear with me as I move through the documents which I have assembled, and will acquit me, if it has any impatience, of any attempt to delay. It is simply that tracing the references which I have discovered may take some time.
My right hon. Friend said that the Anglesey County Council had considered the matter in depth. Although I shall always pay tribute to my right hon. Friend, I cannot accept what he says about Anglesey County Council. As I shall prove by quotations from members of the county council, the way in which they have approached the Bill has been negligent, cavalier and superficial to a degree which is a betrayal of the people they represent. I say that not only about the Chairman of the Parliamentary Committee of Anglesey, who spoke before the Select Committee, but the oil pollution officer, whose performance before the Committee and whose readiness to accept information of a most unsatisfactory nature does not do him credit. I say that with full responsibility for what I am saying.
I shall refer to the Durban spillages, not as a main basis in my argument but as a minor ingredient in the case against the Bill. Whether or not there has been pollution from the Durban spillages is only slightly relevant to the argument against the Bill. My right hon. Friend and the Member for Conway (Mr. Wyn Robert) referred to the proceedings in the South African Parliament. I say to them that I did not think it would be necessary ever for my right hon. Friend, a man of superb record, as Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs against apartheid and racialism, to have, in the course of his argument, to call upon the bona fides of the South African Government for an argument in favour of this Bill. [Interruption.] I know that hon. Members opposite do not like this and I am not in any way attempting to appeal to them, for I do not care either for the

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arguments of those Members of the South African Parliament who have spoken against such schemes. I am not going to cite statements made either by the South African Government or by any Members of the South African Parliament because, as the Home Secretary told the Conservative Party conference in another context last week, I spurn them all. I wish to quote the facts rather than opinions, and the deductions drawn from those facts, because it is the facts which are important.
In opposing the Bill—and I say this in apology to hon. Members opposite who may oppose it too and perhaps welcome my opposition—I do so as a Socialist and for Socialist reasons. I put my arguments to my fellow-Socialists on this side of the House and do so because I believe that the Shell Oil Company, a massive international company with enormous resources, is, for its own purposes—purposes of which, as I shall explain, I have the gravest suspicion—taking Anglesey County Council for a ride and is even, although it is a difficult thing to do because he is an exceptionally astute as well as honourable politician, taking my right hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey for a ride. I will attempt to explain why.
I will look at the arguments which have been made in favour of the Bill before I come to what I regard as its disadvantages. I wish to go through these arguments in order to bring home to my hon. Friends, as well as to any hon Members opposite who wish to be converted by me, that every single claim which has been made for the Bill by Shell, the promoter, is invalid and based on evidence that is either untrue, incomplete or superficial.
Mr. Gower: Would the hon. Gentleman consider this proposal to have greater merit if it were being promoted by a "British Oil Board"? Does he not have a prejudice against it merely because it is proposed by a company rather than a State board?
Mr. Kaufman: If it were promoted by a State board I would oppose it equally and for the reasons which I now wish to put before the House. But it is not insignificant that the proposal is being put by this kind of company. But even
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if it were put forward by, say, British Rail—which I am fighting in my constituency on many things—I would oppose it equally. I understand that Anglesey County Council, whatever its politics, is not Tory. I am not opposing the council because of its politics but because of its irresponsibility and betrayal of the people it represents. I first turn to the arguments made in favour of the Bill. I wish to consider them in detail which I trust will not be otiose repetition. If it is, I know that you will call me to order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
The first argument which has been made is about the employment which the project may or may not provide, and the first argument put forward in favour of the employment prospects if the Bill was passed was put on Second Reading on 9th June, 1971, in another place by the noble Lord, Lord Lauderdale.
It is important to draw the attention of the House to the way in which the Earl of Lauderdale approached his responsibility with regard to this Bill. He intervened in the debate on Second Reading in another place on 9th June, 1971, and declared no interest whatever. On 21st October, when there was Motion for recommitment of the Bill he spoke again and at that stage declared an interest of 100 shares in Shell Oil.
On 1st February, this year, on Third Reading, not only did he declare an interest, saying that he had 200 shares in Shell Oil, but he moved Third Reading, so from having been a backbencher with no particular role, he turns out to be a share-owner who moves the Third Reading.
I apologise if at this moment I become slightly peripatetic in my arguments, but the noble Lord, Earl Lauderdale, on Second Reading of the Bill on 9th June said that there were to be about 80 jobs, and I quote:
"This proposition would bring 35 to 40 permanent new jobs to the local people, about 20 or so maintaining the two launches and the SBM's and about 15 to 20 on the tank farm."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 9th June, 1971; Vol. 320, c. 277.]
So, according to him on 9th June, 1971, there would be 80 jobs, but on the Third Reading we had him again and this time he changed his tune and by now was saying that there would be at least 60

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permanent new jobs which should be regarded as likely for Amlwch. So already 20 jobs had gone.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey, in moving Second Reading in this House on 28th February this year said:
"The construction of the terminal would provide work for 200, and once it is operating there will be direct permanent jobs for 60 and, indirectly, jobs for a further 40."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th February, 1972; Vol. 832, c. 120.]
So my right hon. Friend, after the Earl of Lauderdale had moved the estimate down from 80 to 60, raised it to 100.
Then we come to the proceedings in Committee on the Bill. We then had Councillor Williams, the Chairman of the Parliamentary Committee of Anglesey County Council saying about the number of jobs being provided:
"I would think that a safe figure on which to work is that it would provide possibly up to 60 permanent jobs, and a large number of temporary jobs. It is, I think, unwise and unfortunate if firm figures are quoted which would only dash the hopes of the large number of unemployed people in Anglesey in clue course".
So the Chairman of the Parliamentary Committee of Anglesey County Council is saying that there might be 60 jobs and that they could not be relied upon, and that people's hopes should not be raised.
On the second day, we have Mr. A. J. Carter, the principal witness for Shell Oil. He is one of the most admirable and reliable witnesses who came before the Committee. He was asked:
'It appears from your evidence today that the most local people who can be employed regularly would be round about 30 roughly?"
Mr. Carter, the senior witness for Shell in this Bill replied:
"Yes; about 35 I should say."
We are now told on the latest available evidence that 35 jobs would be provided locally by this project. Many people think that that is an overestimate, but, clearly, 35 jobs would have no impact whatever on unemployment in Anglesey.
Mr. Eric Ogden: It would on the 35.
Mr. Kaufman: I will deal with—
Mr. Ogden: Especially if my hon. Friend and I were among the 35.
Mr. Kaufman: Yes, and I have asked for information on which we may reach a conclusion about the Bill, but the information so far presented is that the Government would be putting £20 million towards the cost of the project and, that being so, each job would cost £600,000. If my hon. Friend does not think that the industrial policies of this or any other Government could deal with the whole of the unemployment problems of Anglesey more cheaply than £600,000 per job, his idea of regional policy is greatly different from mine, let alone the ideas of our late hon. Friend from Middlesbrough, West.
Mr. Ellis: Is my hon. Friend now saying that the purpose of the £20 million is to provide 35 jobs?
Mr. Kaufman: I am not saying that that is the purpose. What I am saying is that one of the principal arguments for the Bill—it was put forward in another place and it has been put forward by my right hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey—is that the project would provide employment. I have tried to show that the amount of employment would be minimal and that it would be provided at a cost to the Exchequer of £600,000 per job. Although I am the last person to wish the slightest action not to be taken if it would provide jobs, as the Member for an area with its own unemployment problems, I know that the problem in Ardwick, which has a problem of far more than 35 jobs, could be solved for far less than £20 million which, as taxpayers, we should be asked to spend in Anglesey.
I am not saying that that is how we should judge it, but if anyone argues that the project should go ahead on the basis that it would be a job provider, I argue that it is scarcely a job provider and that, if it is, it is the most luxurious terms that any exponent of regional policy could possibly advocate.
Mr. Gower: The hon. Member will appreciate that it would provide not only 35 to 40 permanent jobs, but a certain amount of financial help to the economy of Anglesey as a whole and lead ultimately to the introduction of ancillary industry in the area.
Mr. Kaufman: Ancillary industry is an important consideration and I shall come to it later, but I now come to the argument about revenue for Anglesey, an argument that has been paraded by those promoting the Bill. The argument about revenue is as utterly bogus, deceptive and untruthful as that about job provision.
Mr. Laurance Reed: The hon. Member's argument has been somewhat specious and he should not be allowed to get away with it. The terminal would provide some employment in Anglesey—we may argue about how much—but for Anglesey it would be a plus. But the Government's investment is not given specifically with a view to creating that number of jobs in Anglesey but with a view to getting a plant which could fill the nation's needs.
Mr. Kaufman: I am grateful to the hon. Member for that intervention. As I will come to the argument about revenue, so I will come to the argument about the nation's needs. I think that I shall be able to show that that argument, too, is utterly bogus and has been employed by Shell as a snare to persuade people to pump money into a project that is a scandal.
Mr. Reed: It may be that it does not fill the nation's needs, but the argument cannot be used about employment; it does not add up.
Mr. Kaufman: I do not wish to labour the point. I was only trying to persuade the House that if job provision were to be used as an argument in favour of the Bill, it was an argument of the most minimal kind that could be deployed only on the basis of the most massive expenditure on behalf of the taxpayer and that pumping £20 million into Anglesey in other ways would provide far more than 35 jobs. But that is not my only argument, and if it were hon. Members would be at liberty to say that my case was a little delicate, to say the least.
I come now to the question raised by the hon. Member for Barry (Mr. Gower) on revenue provision. Here once again we come to that admirable fellow the Earl of Lauderdale. He dealt not only with job provision but also with the financial rewards available to the good people of Anglesey from the project. I quote from
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him on Second Reading, the occasion when he did not declare his interest on 9th June last year. He said that Shell
"offered an ex-gratia payment of one new penny per ton of crude oil passing through this pipe per annum, offering Anglesey an eventual revenue in altogether new money"—
I like that—
"of something like £250,000 per annum."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 9th June, 1971; Vol. 320, c. 278.]
By 1st February this year, by which time the Earl had taken on a more responsible rôle as the spokesman of Shell Oil, he had revised his estimate very considerably downward. He said:
"After the proper corrections for the effect of the rate support grant."—
because Anglesey loses some of its rate support grant when it gets this beneficial subsidy—
"this seems likely to mean a new net revenue to Anglesey County Council of the order of £120,000 in 1975, if the timing programme is adhered to, rising to about £150,000 by the end of the decade."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, House of Lords, 1st February, 1972; Vol. 327, c. 709.]
The Dutch auction had now taken Royal Dutch Shell down from £250,000 in June, 1971, to a maximum of £150,000 in February, 1972. My right hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey, moving the Second Reading of the Bill on 28th February this year, had a different estimate. He said that the county council, through the terminal authority, would receive income rising to £200,000 per annum net.
In the Committee, however, the advocate of the Bill, Mr. Jupp, said what the amount would be, and I quote from day one of the proceedings:
"net payment to the county council in the year 1975 will be £150,000 per annum, assuming, and this is the assumption, that by then the terminal is importing 17 million tons a year."
There is no guarantee that it would be importing that amount. The figure has fallen already by £100,000 from the figure given by the Earl of Lauderdale. But that £150,000 is not pure gain. Far from it, because under the Bill Anglesey is committed not only to receiving revenue but also to outlays of expenditure. We are told that part of the arrangement is that Anglesey County Council will construct a harbour. Quoting from day one we find counsel for the Bill saying:

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"The model test shows that less extensive works are now possible"—
That is works less extensive than originally envisaged—
"with the result that the county council's share of the estimate of expenses is now reduced from £1,500,000, which is the addition of works 5 to 10 on the estimate of expense. I do not know that I need ask the Committee to look at it, but just to hear it in mind. It is now estimated that they can be done for just under £750,000 by leaving out some of the works."
Let us accept that the estimate of counsel for the Bill of the revenue—assuming that the 17 million tons materialises—is correct. We find income, we hope, of £150,000 a year and outlay, according to counsel of £750,000. I stopped doing mathematics pretty early at school but according to my estimate that is five years' revenue gone down the drain immediately, assuming that the revenue comes in, which it may not, but knowing that the expenditure is committed, because it is in the Bill.
Let us look at what the Bill says. We have the word of Mr. Jupp in photostat but we also have the Bill. Page 2, paragraph (7) says:
"For the construction of the works authorised by this Act to be construed by the council £1,500,000."
Mr. Jupp tells us that he hopes it might be £750,000 but the Bill has written into it £1,500,000. On the one hand £150,000 may be coming in from revenue, but on the other hand the expenditure which will be laid down in an Act means that 10 years' revenue is mortgaged at a stroke.
There is more than that. There are two other facts. I will not intervene in any argument between the hon. Member for Conway and my right hon. Friend the Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Goronwy Roberts) because I will always, on anything but this Bill, take the side of my right hon. Friend. The hon. Member mentioned tourism. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Mr. Ron Lewis) ought not to heckle me on that. The last thing I am doing is making a Tory argument.
Mr. Ron Lewis: An hon. Member opposite could not catch my hon. Friend's words and I said "tourism". I am not in any way disagreeing with him.
Mr. Kaufman: I apologise to my hon. Friend. I am obliged to him. I am so unused to any support from this side of the House that when I heard an interruption I automatically took it to be hostile.
Mr. Gower: Does the hon. Gentleman not consider that he may be looking at this through the eyes of a rich city like Manchester? Does he appreciate that the provision of 30 or 40 jobs and a new harbour and a client such as Shell are tremendous things for a small rural county in Wales? Does he realise he is looking through different spectacles and that this is something quite different for one of the poorer rural areas compared with what it would be for Manchester?
Mr. Kaufman: The hon. Gentleman should not rub salt into my wounds in talking about Manchester as a rich city. Since his Government reduced our rate support grant we are poverty-stricken and the many things which need to be done in my constituency, which is environmentally one of those which suffers most in the country, cannot be done. He should not refer to Manchester as a rich city. We once were, but after 1970 matters have changed very much.
As for what he says about a small rural council and its relationship with a giant company like Shell, I shall be coming to the exceptionally sinister implications of such a connection. I find to my gratification that as I have planned the scheme of my speech I have been able to anticipate every one of the interventions, and I trust that I shall be able to satisfy with argument everything said to me in interventions.
I return to where I was, the speech of the hon. Member for Conway about tourism. He has worries, since he is a Member for a tourist constituency. We should take account of his worries. The question was put to the pollution officer of Anglesey, Mr. Thomas, about whose rôle I have said something and shall have something further to say. Counsel against the Bill asked him:
"If my mathematics are right about Anglesey's present tourist income, one needs only a decline of some 3 per cent. to cause losses to Anglesey of some £202,000 a year".
The reply by the pollution officer of Anglesey was, "Yes". He admitted that a 3 per cent. decline would lose £200,000 for Anglesey We do not have

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to take any view about what is said by Members of the South African Parliament to know that if there is a fear that Anglesey will be polluted people will think twice about going there for their holidays. The loss of £200,000 would totally wipe out the revenue from the oil royalties and leave a deficit.
But even that is not all. Anglesey not only has a commitment to building the harbour but has another commitment. We find this on day 6 of the proceedings of the Committee on the Bill. [Interruption.] I am sorry if my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby disapproves of what I am saying, but it is right that hon. Members should have these arguments presented to them, not necessarily to agree with me, but so that they can make up their minds not on my opinions but on facts, which are provided from the proceedings on the Bill, often by witnesses in favour of the Bill.
Mr. Ogden: I regret seeking to intervene, but I did say that it seemed like six days on my hon. Friend's speech. He said at the beginning that he spoke as a Socialist. The debate is limited to two hours. If this is my hon. Friend's idea of fair shares for all, speaking for half an hour in a debate limited to two hours, it is not mine.
Mr. Kaufman: I did not say that I was speaking for half an hour.
Mr. Ogden: My hon. Friend said that he spoke as a Socialist.
Mr. Kaufman: Yes, but speaking as a Socialist does not mean a half-hour limit to a speech. If my hon. Friend will refer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever), of whom I am only a humble disciple, he will see that my right hon. Friend has not limited himself in the past. I assure my hon. Friend that I do not know how long this speech will take. I do not know whether it will take up to the time allowed, less or more. I only know that I prepared it with care. My hon. Friend cannot say that I have so far said anything irrelevant or that I have done anything other than to attempt to adduce evidence from which the House can make up its mind. Though I gladly give way to my hon. Friend, as to any
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other hon. Member, if I do so he must not then accuse me of making a speech which is perhaps a six-day bore.
Let us see what is said about the use of the revenue. A report of the Countryside Commission to do with the environmental problems of the Bill says:
"On the assumption that revenue from the terminal would be devoted primarily to the environment on work such as restoring areas of dereliction, landscaping and improvements to the footpath system and public access generally, I do not consider that it has been established that the disadvantages of the land installation are such as to outweigh an established national interest in the terminal scheme as a whole."
I am quoting from the Countryside Commission, which says that if there is an established national interest it will not oppose it. I shall come to the established national interest presently.
What the Countryside Commission says is that it does not oppose it provided that revenue is promoted for dealing with the damage done by the establishment. Therefore, what it is saying is that the revenue shall be used to make good the ravages done by the provider of the revenue. Therefore, there will be no net revenue whatever. The revenue will be used up on landscaping.
The fact is—I shall come to this in a little while—that no amount of landscaping whatever can obscure 15 tanks each twice the size of Conway Castle. I shall come to that presently; I shall come to the question whether landscaping is possible. All one can say at the moment is that the Countryside Commission approves it provided it is in the established national interest, if this revenue is used to deal with the ravages. So there will be no net revenue.
Not only will there be no net revenue. The revenue will be wasted. There will be expenditure on the harbour to which the county council is committed. There will also possibly be a loss to tourism. In addition to all that—and I offer this particularly to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby, there will be a loss to the port of Liverpool of £1·3 million per annum. The hon. Member for Barry called Manchester rich. I feel sure that my hon. Friend the Member for West Derby will not say that Liverpool is rich. Yet, under this Bill, his city would lose £1·3 million.

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The next argument—this is where we come to what the Countryside Commission described as an established national interest—the next argument which we have is that this would be a major help in the national supply of oil. My right hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey, with justification from his point of view, made a very great deal of this. The Select Committee of another place made its Report on the Bill and approved it should go on, on the basis of a national requirement for the additional supply of oil. That is what the Select Committee of another place based its approval on.
This was also the view of the pollution officer. He based his approval of it on this as well. I am sorry to delay the House, but I wish to find the quotation. I have it here. The pollution officer, Mr. Thomas, said he was in favour of the Bill. One of the reasons why he was in favour of the Bill was as follows. The question was put to him:
"How do you regard the establishment of this SBM terminal from your point of view as a pollution officer?"
He replied:
"What I say is based on the fact that it is my assumption that the oil trade in this area will increase."
A curious attitude for a pollution officer to take: he approves something not because of its environmental aspects, with which he is concerned, but because the oil trade will increase.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey said on Second Reading what he said today. I want to quote what he said on Second Reading because this is what people's attitude to this Bill has been based on so far. He said:
"As to the source of the oil, obviously it will be the Middle East which supplies crude oil in the main to this country and Venezuela." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th February, 1972; Vol. 832, c. 121.]
The Venezuelan oil companies have just made an announcement, reported a few days ago in the Financial Times, that they are deliberately going to cut down their extraction of oil, firstly because they do not wish their limited supplies to run out too soon; secondly, because of the wish to keep the price level. Therefore, the incursion of oil from Venezuela is an argument which should be treated with great caution.
But if one assumes that the oil is coming from the Middle East and
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Venezuela, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey says, something follows. Mr. Carter, the principal witness for Shell, whom I have already described with sincerity as the outstanding witness before the Select Committee—a witness of veracity and conviction—said:
"In part, the justification for the scheme—the financing of the scheme if you like—depends on the freight economies of very large tankers coming from the Middle East."
Therefore, he says that the financing of the project from the point of view of Shell depends on oil coming on the long haul in super-tankers. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."] That is what he said. I quote not an opponent but a supporter. He was asked:
"Am I right in saying that the economies in the use of super-tankers exist on the long hauls? A. They are greater on the long hauls, yes. Q. So far as Europe is concerned, am I right in saying that super-tankers at the moment are deployed almost exclusively on the Middle East run, from the Persian Gulf round the Cape? A. Yes, almost exclusively. Q. You would not think of running that on a short run—for example, from Bantry Bay to Rotterdam? A. No. Q. That "—
namely, a short run—
"would be quite out of the question? A. Well, there would be no point in it"
Mr. Farr rose—
Mr. Kaufman: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would allow me to complete the argument. We find our friends in strange places. My hon. Friends who are supporters of the Bill find their support in a major capitalist company—Shell.
Mr. Carter was asked:
"It follows, does it not, from the fact that one does not use one's super-tankers on short hauls, that super-tankers are not going to be used to bring oil from the North Sea to the U.K.? A. I think probably not. Q. That must be right, must it not? A. Well, if the super-tankers exist there seems to be no reason why they should not be used if they are available, but from the planning and economical point of view, for this journey super-tankers would not be used".
So Mr. Carter says that super tankers would not be used to bring oil from the North Sea to the single buoy mooring. This is confirmed by a fascinating gentleman, a sea dog, Captain Overschie. He sounds like someone out of Joseph Conrad. He was called by Shell as somebody who was extremely knowledgeable. He was a marine superintendent of the Shell International Petroleum Company.

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Therefore, he must be knowledgeable about sea matters. He spoke about
"the wish to avoid bringing an increasing number of tankers into … Liverpool"
and
"the economies of scale which can be achieved by the use of very large tankers which make an important contribution to keeping down the price of petroleum products."
Therefore, the argument that the oil terminal would be helpful to the country because it would assist in bringing in oil is based on two things. The first is that Liverpool is not satisfactory for super tankers. They have to take part in the lightening operations and therefore a single buoy mooring is necessary for super tankers.
The second is that the oil is coming on the long haul from Venezuela and the Middle East, because it is only on long haul trips that there is any point in employing super tankers.
We all know—that was said by the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry at the Conservative Party Conference last week; it was said by a Shell spokesman no less only yesterday, and I quoted this in an intervention in the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey; it is not only my argument; it is an argument well known to anybody who reads any reports about the energy supply situation—that we shall rely less in future on long haul oil, first because we have this bonanza in the North Sea which is helpful to the balance of payments and that would come, if it came by sea, on short haul, not in super tankers; and, second, those of us who read the newspapers know full well that there is a major energy crisis in the United States, that the United States is running out of its own oil supplies, that it is having to turn to the Middle East, and that the moment the United States becomes a competitor against us in the Middle East for oil it will get the oil and we will not.
Therefore, because of the energy crisis, because of the finds of North Sea oil, it is utterly clear and incontrovertible—nobody except in the context of the Bill would argue in any other way—that at least half, probably more, of the oil which will come into Britain will come from the North Sea for the foreseeable
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future, as the Shell oil spokesman says. That means that increased facilities for super tankers and long haul are a nonsense. This is a fact. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), who is a member of our Power Group and who is interested in these matters, agrees with me. The whole argument that this is necessary because long haul oil is needed in super tankers is a pernicious nonsense and is out of date.
Shell's own spokesman is reported in the Daily Telegraph this morning to have said this:
"Mr. David Fleming, the Shell/Esso marine expert and oil adviser to the Bank of Scotland, says at least 60 per cent. of Britain's oil will be provided by the North Sea for as long as can be foreseen."
Mr. Farr: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, though it is so long ago since I sought to intervene that I have almost forgotten the point on which I sought to intervene. It was in an endeavour to be helpful, because I wanted to ask him, I now recall, whether he is aware that recent finds of oil in the North Sea, especially the two in August by the Shell-Esso group and the two in September by the Phillips group, have led experts now to forecast that Britain will be a net exporter of crude oil to a significant extent by 1990. This information even supersedes the evidence given to the Committee to which the hon. Gentleman has been referring.
Mr. Kaufman: I certainly accept what the hon. Gentleman says, and it is an important argument. I sometimes have my disagreements with the hon. Gentleman. When he spoke earlier about this massive oil find being a reason why oil was not imported, I totally disagreed with him, because I believe that the coming energy crisis means that we must have a much stronger and more viable coal industry.
Mr. Gordon Oakes: My hon. Friend makes great play of this 60 per cent. and 40 per cent. What about the 40 per cent. of oil which is being imported? I ask him a question as a North Western Member, as a Manchester Member near to Carrington and to Stanlow. Unless this development takes place in Anglesey, is it not likely that those great refineries in the North West of England will certainly not advance and will probably decline? He will agree that most

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oil coming into the country, apart from North Sea oil—the 40 per cent.—will come increasingly in big tankers which cannot unload at Liverpool. Therefore, unless there is something like this on Anglesey, the North-West as a whole, including my hon. Friend's constituents, will lose.
Mr. Kaufman: My hon. Friend's argument is totally invalid, as I shall show presently. If there was to be any damage at all done to my constituents in Manchester by this Bill not becoming law, I assure him that I would not have opened my mouth. Much as I care for Anglesey, I care more for Manchester and, in the end, I am ready to tolerate any damage to Anglesey, and even that which will give Shell profit, if it is going to help Manchester. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am elected to speak for my constituents, and I shall seek to show that no damage will be done to Manchester, because if 60 per cent. comes from the North Sea, 40 per cent. will come from elsewhere. But if 40 per cent. comes from elsewhere and 60 per cent. from the North Sea, it is clear that there will be increased facilities—facilities greater than those which exist at present.
I must say to my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes that the present facilities can cope with the amount of long-haul oil which is necessary, even including lightening operations. I shall not include that aspect because I believe the whole question of lightening operations is bogus, invented by Shell and the promoters of the Bill to conceal why they want it.
When my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes talks about Manchester, I must tell him that two of my constituents, school girls, spent a holiday in Anglesey and then came to ask me to oppose the Bill.
Mr. Laurance Reed: I share my hon. Friend's view about the potential of North Sea oil, and indeed I believe that when we look at the Western seas we shall become self-sufficient. I do not accept his assumption that giant tankers will not necessarily be used to bring the oil ashore. In the evidence from which he quoted the question referred to the possibility of large tankers being used on short hauls from Bantry Bay to Rotterdam—that is a terminal, not an
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oil field. Later in the evidence the gentleman who was giving evidence did not say that large tankers would not be used to ship oil from oil fields in the North to the shores of Great Britain. In considering his reply to the question posed he was not dealing with the question of whether it should be large versus small tankers, but whether it should be large tankers verus pipelines. Since the evidence was given we have discovered much larger oil fields further north than the Forties and in much deeper water in which depths vary. I know that Shell is considering using large tankers to ship the oil from the fields to Britain.
Mr. Kaufman: I must dispose of the Bantry Bay point. I shall not do so with too much zeal because many of my constituents, bless their hearts, come from Bantry Bay. Bantry Bay was used as an example of short haul. I was not suggesting that oil from Bantry Bay was to come to Anglesey or Tranmere, but I was quoting it as an example of the short-haul journey. Whatever else he may say about the North Sea, the fact is that I have not been arguing that the oil will come by pipeline. I am trying to give hon. Members every point I can, because I do not want to argue invalidly. I say that if it is transported by tanker, by sea, and I am not arguing that it will not be other than far less likely, because Mr. Carter said so, and he is the senior witness for Shell. Mr. Carter, the most important witness for Shell, said that supertankers would be uneconomic and that there would be no point in using them. The hon. Member is well known as a great expert on the sea bed, but I am sure that he will not claim to be a greater expert than Mr. Carter, who says that the use of supertankers would be uneconomic and that they would not be used.
Mr. Reed: Mr. Carter says that it probably would—and I use the word " probably " because the hon. Member himself used it—be uneconomic to use supertankers in relation to—what? To smaller tankers or to pipelines? That is the critical question to be asked, because if it is in relation to pipelines, if pipelines cannot be used, it would prove desirable and possibly economic to use large tankers.
Mr. Kaufman: But the hon. Member is under a entire misapprehension. Mr. Carter was not arguing as between pipelines and supertankers but between ordinary tankers and supertankers, and he was saying that it was regular tankers, but not supertankers, that would be used. So the hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension.
One argument that has been put, and I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes) is not now present, but at least my hon. Friend the Member for West Derby is here, and it is important that he should be because one of the arguments in favour of the single-buoy mooring which has been given the greatest weight is that it is necessary because of congestion on the Mersey. But that sea dog, Captain Overschie, has something to say about congestion in the Mersey. He said that one of the reasons for the single buoy mooring was
"… the wish to avoid bringing an increasing number of tankers into the ever more congested area of Liverpool Bay and the Mersey with the greater risks of collision or stranding, with the major pollution risks this would involve."
So there we have Captain Overschie, representative of Shell, saying that one of the arguments is the possibility and the danger of congestion on the Mersey.
But what are we told about congestion on the Mersey? Let us listen to what Captain J. Petticrew, who is extremely experienced in sailing on the Mersey, had to say to the Committee on the Bill. He said:
"…the South End Docks in Liverpool are going to be closed in the autumn of this year "—
that is, 1972:
"and at the present time they are being very, very sparsely used. Most of the firms in South End Docks have already moved north."
He was asked:
"So in fact, the pattern which you see is one of a decreased amount of shipping in the Mersey?"
He replied: "Yes."
But let us not just listen to Captain Petticrew but to what is said by the manager of the Mersey Port. He was asked:
"Do you consider the present level of traffic in the Mersey is going to continue or will it increase or decrease? "
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He replied:
"I think that if the container traffic increases possibly the number of ships will fall away. There has been a steady decline in the shipping over the last five years. It has increased a little since last year, but one hopes that it will improve."
That is to say, he wants it to rise, but it is falling. He was asked:
"I believe it is right that certain installations have been or are about to be closed, and in turn others have been opened. Can you tell us about the ones that are or will be closed?
"A. The Brunswick system of docks will be closed on 1st September. We are closing the South system of docks and moving that traffic to the North system …. Of course, the closing of the South Docks will mean that the ships which were bound for Brunswick will no longer go there, and to that extent there is more room for the tankers."
Further, he was asked:
"In 1972, can you give us some idea of the number of tankers which discharged at Tranmere?
"A. During the year ended 30th April, 1972, 220 tankers discharged at Tranmere; that is, an average of one every 1.6 days."
Thus, we are told by the Mersey port manager himself that there is less shipping on the Mersey, that traffic is declining on the Mersey, yet the argument put forward by the seafaring advocate for the Bill was based on increased congestion on the Mersey. That, he said, is why the SBM is necessary.
Mr. Neil McBride rose—
Mr. Kaufman: I shall give way to my hon. Friend in a moment, but I just wish to complete this part of my argument. One of the arguments is that there is danger in the use of the Mersey, a danger to the lightering operations. I shall come to the lightering operations.
Mr. Gowe rose
Mr. Kaufman: I promised to give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. McBride), but first I want to finish this part of my argument. I undertake to give way to the hon. Gentleman, but I must be permitted to finish this paragraph. Although we are told that the Mersey must be saved, it is also admitted by the promoters of the Bill in their advocacy that even if the single buoy mooring is introduced, and even if it is working fully, there will he 35 days in every year when the single

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buoy mooring cannot operate and the port of Liverpool will have to be used. Thus, this port, whether too congested or less congested—they say that it is too congested, which is why we need the single buoy mooring, although they have proved that it is getting less and less congested—will have to be used on one day in every 10 in the year, on the admission of the promoters themselves.
Mr. McBride: In his preamble to the main argument, my hon. Friend, perhaps inadvertently, forgot two important matters. First, there is congestion in relation to shipping. I know something about this, having worked in shipbuilding before coming to the House. There is the question of physical limitations. Tankers are getting larger. There is the question of turnround, and the question of water below the keel. My hon. Friend cannot say that that will be available, because it is not.
Furthermore, in his argument so far my hon. Friend, although he talked about the economy, ignored—again, perhaps, inadvertently—the assertion by the Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry regarding the improvement to the economy to be gained from the cost-effectiveness of using large tankers at a single buoy mooring. If he knows and acknowledges these things, my hon. Friend falls between all the stools, does he not?
Mr. Kaufman: As my hon. Friend knows, I have a deep respect and affection for him. I never thought a day would come when he would quote a Tory Minister against one of his own hon. Friends. [HON. MEMBERS: "You are joining the Tories."] I am not joining with them. They are joining with me. They can say what they like. I am opposing this scheme as a Socialist. They can have whatever reasons they like. I am opposing it as a Socialist, because I regard it as an outrage.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton: The hon. Member mentioned a figure of £1,300,000 as a loss to be suffered by the Mersey if the single buoy mooring is established at Anglesey. How is that sum made up? No doubt, if the single buoy mooring is established at Anglesey, there will be further redundancies in the dock industry, and we know
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the present situation in that industry, particularly in the North-West.
Mr. Kaufman: I hope that the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Nicholas Winterton) will forgive me if I leave that matter to a little later because I have certain other arguments which I wish to put before the House.
Mr. Gower: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's deep interest in this matter, but does he not feel, in view of the number of hon. Members who may want to say a few words, including hon. Members on his side of the House who represent Welsh constituencies, that he is taking up an unreasonable amount of time?
Mr. Kaufman: No, I do not. This is a matter of prime interest to the country. There is involved £20 million of taxpayers' money. If the debate does not finish tonight the House can resume it on another day.
Mr. Emery: It would be wrong if it were to go out of the House, as the hon. Gentleman has suggested before, that £20 million of taxpayers' money is being granted for this purpose. That would have been the case under the last Government's grant aid but it is not the case under the present Government. We have been able to correct that, so the hon. Gentleman's figures are slightly out of date. The only aid which would come, because it is not on the pipelining side, would be on the free depreciation, on the profitability that there might be. It is free depreciation, not grant aid.
Mr. Ogden: On a point of order. My hon. Friend said that if the debate continues until 12.15 tonight it could be resumed on another date. Could we have your guidance on that, Mr. Deputy Speaker? Must the Question be put?
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu): Yes, the debate can be resumed another day.
Mr. Kaufman: I thought the matter was clear. If I continue until the time lapses tonight, I hope to be able to resume when we continue on another occasion, as I have far from exhausted my arguments.
I now come to the question of spillage which seemed to be one of great importance to my right hon. Friend the Member

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for Anglesey and the hon. Member for Conway.
Mr. McBride: On a point of order. My hon. Friend has referred to the debate being continued on another day. Does the term "another day" mean in the present Session or can it be construed as applying to the next Session?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: In certain circumstances it can be continued on another day. That is what I said.
Mr. Kaufman: Private Bills, as my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. McBride) knows, are not subject to the troubles with afflict public Bills, and can be carried over from one Session to the next. That being so, we do not face the problem which would have applied if the Bill were a Government Bill or a private Member's Bill. The Bill is not subject to the guillotine, the death sentence which applies to Bills at the end of the Session.
Although I do not make much of spillages, there is involved the propriety of Shell Oil and its bona fides. In the Special Report from the Select Committee of another place, which recommended that the Bill be allowed to proceed, we were told at paragraph 60:
"Upon this aspect evidence was given by the promoters that in 1970 the Shell Company handled 65 million tons of oil, involving 1,000 ships, through 16 single buoy moorings around the world with two recorded incidents of spillage."
It was on that basis that another place recommended that the Bill should go forward. But then two matters which had not been available were drawn to the attention of another place, and it had to issue a further Special Report. The Report said:
"The Committee feel bound to put on record their surprise that an organisation of the international standing of the Royal Dutch Shell Group should have found such difficulty in supplying statistics on spillage and pollution which had occurred in single buoy mooring Terminals under their control. This failure has had the result of obliging the Committee to consider once again in detail matters which had been explained to them in evidence on a previous occasion, and upon which they had formed certain conclusions on an inadequate basis."
I will not quote what they said about single point buoy moorings—
Mr. Cledwyn Hughes rose in his place, and claimed to move. That the Question be now put.
Question put, That the Question be now put:—
The House divided: Ayes, 66, Noes, 7.

Division No. 336.]

AYES

[12.14 a.m.

Atkins, Humphrey

Hooson, Emlyn

Pentland, Norman

Bagier, Gordon A. T.

Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

Percival, Ian

Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

Probert, Arthur

Bray, Ronald

Hughes, Mark (Durham)

Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

Brown, Robert C. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne,W.)

Hughes, Roy (Newport)

Richard, Ivor

Brown, Ronald(Shoreditch & F'bury)

John, Brynmor

Roberts, Rt.Hn.Goronwy (Caernarvon)

Bruce-Gardyne, J.

Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Brc'n&R'dnor)

Churchill, W. S.

Kinnock, Neil

Rowlands, Ted

Cockeram, Eric

Lane, David

Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

Cohen, Stanley

Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

Skeet, T. H. H.

Concannon, J. D.

McBride, Neil

Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

Crawshaw, Richard

Mackie, John

Thomas,Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff,W.)

Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

McNamara, J. Kevin

Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

Davies, Ifor (Gower)

Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

Doig, Peter

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Watkins, David

Ellis, Tom

Milne, Edward

Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

Emery, Peter

Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen)

Younger, Hn. George

Ford, Ben

Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

Garrett, W. E.

Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Golding, John

Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

Gower, Raymond

Normanton, Tom

Mr. Gordon Oakes and

Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

Ogden, Eric

Mr. Gwynoro Jones

Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

NOES

Clark, David (Colne Valley)

Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove)

Skinner, Dennis

Mr. John Farr and

Hardy, Peter

Whitehead, Phillip

Mr. Nicholas Winterton

Kaufman, Gerald

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu): I declare that the Question is not decided in the affirmative because it was not supported by the majority prescribed by Standing Order No. 31.
Mr. George Thomas: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I ask whether it is within your responsibility to draw the attention of whoever is responsible in the House to the absurdity of taking Private Bills of this significance at the end of the day and not earlier?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: I do not think that is anything to do with the Chair as such.
It being after Two hours after the commencement of Proceedings on the Bill, the debate stood adjourned.
Debate to be resumed this day.

DUNDEE EXTENSION ORDER CONFIMATION BILL (By Order)
Order for Third Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
12.22 p.m.
Mr. George Thomson: I am conscious that this is probably one of the last speeches that I shall make on behalf of the city of Dundee, which I have had the honour to represent for nearly 20 years. I remember that one of the first speeches that I made in the House on behalf of Dundee was on the Consolidated Fund Bill at about one o'clock in the morning when the House otherwise consisted of only the Leader of the House, the late Mr. Harry Crook-shank, who, while I made a rather long speech, ostentatiously took out a large gold hunter which he kept dangling in front of my eyes. I assure the Scottish Minister, whom I am glad to see in his place, that I shall not weary the House with a long speech tonight.
The reason for the debate is that the hon. Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne) has put down an Amendment—"That the Bill be read the Third time upon this day six months". In effect, he is seeking to have the Bill rejected. I understand that his reason for seeking this debate is to reflect object-
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tions to the Bill by Angus County Council. I wait with interest to hear exactly what those objections are, because the county council had ample opportunity to raise objections in the way normal to county councils that conduct their business efficiently.
Because the county council and one other person objected, the Secretary of State set up a public inquiry, which was to have been held in March or April, but Angus County Council withdrew its objection on 17th February. I am therefore surprised that at this late stage the objection is resurrected.
I am all the more surprised because the Bill originated in planning permission granted by the Angus County Council for the building of 400 houses on a site on the south side of the Kingsway ring road around Dundee. Angus County Council asked Dundee Corporation to provide the sewers, water supply, lighting and education services for those 400 houses, services that it was not itself on a position to provide.
It therefore seemed reasonable that an area entirely dependent on Dundee for local authority administration for those services should be made part of Dundee. It is perfectly true that the area included in the Bill extends beyond the site of the 400 houses, but the Bill's proposals have the great advantage that they straighten out the boundary between Dundee and Angus in a way that makes sense of a boundary that on the map now seems as tortuous as anything straight from a map of the Balkans.
In any case, apart from the simplification of the boundary involved in the order, we are all aware that we are on the eve of major local government reform. There can be no doubt that when that takes place in a year or two, the area that we are now discussing will be part of the Dundee district. Apart from that, both the Dundee district and the Angus County will be part of some great new regional local government unit.
It would therefore not make much sense to attempt to hold up this sort of change at this stage. But, of course, if the Bill were to fall as a result of the Motion of the hon. Member for South Angus, the House must be made aware of the consequences. As I understand it, one of the major objections to its passage has come from the county councillor for the area

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concerned, who is quite properly anxious to look after his electors' interests as he sees them. But if the Bill were not to succeed it would mean that families in the council estate on the fringe of the great Menzies Hill estate in Dundee would find no public transport to take their children to the nearest primary school in Muirhead-Birkhill. They would find when they got them to that school that there were no places in the school because Angus County Council had not planned provision at primary level. At the secondary level a ludicrous situation would exist in which youngsters from these new houses would have to travel 14 miles to Forfar Academy rather than a few hundred yards to the high school at Menzies Hill.
On the basis of these arguments there is no rational case for refusing to give the Bill a Second Reading. But, apart from that, there are procedural considerations which should be mentioned. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. George Thomas) raised the question of principle whether these important issues which are often inherent in Private Bills should be taken in the House late at night after a hard day when many hon. Members have departed. The House should not be asked to decide the matter at midnight in this way because it makes a nonsense of the democratic procedure which was well established, which was there to be used but which was not used by those who now seek to raise objections.
I have already indicated the sequence of events and I shall not weary the House by repeating it. With greatest respect, I say to the hon. Member for South Angus, who is defending the interests of his constituency quite properly—and about that I make no objection—that I am proposing that the Bill be read the Third time without having heard the case he wishes to put. If he is wishing to put objections which should have been raised at an earlier stage, the House is in no position to weigh the pros and cons of the objections, however valid they may be. That is what the public inquiry is for. A public inquiry was called off because the county council did not wish to press its objections. Therefore, I hope that after the hon. Member has explained his anxieties to the House he will feel able
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to withdraw his Motion and that the House will give an unopposed Third Reading to the Bill.
12.29 a.m.
Mr. J. Bruce-Gardyne: The right hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. George Thomson) will be departing from the House for reasons which are well known and most of us welcome his new appointment and congratulate him on it. He will be greatly missed, not only in Dundee but in the whole of the Tayside area, where he has earned enormous respect over many years as the representative of his constituents and also as one who has served the area with great distinction.
I accept that this has nothing to do with the matter in hand and I now refer to that. I should make it clear that I am here tonight entirely as spokesman for Angus County Council, at its request. The right hon. Gentleman has described the sequence of events and it is true that the county council, having decided to lodge formal objection to the Bill when it was originally placed in the form of a draft order at the end of 1970, withdrew its objection in the spring of this year. It is fair to explain that what occurred was that in the first place there never was, and there is not now, any objection by Angus County Council to the whole of the proposals in the Bill.
The area about which we are talking consists of about 70 acres within the old Dundee-Newtyle railway line which has been scheduled for housing redevelopment. It is entirely accepted by the county council and all its members that this area should be incorporated in the City of Dundee, very much for the reasons the right hon. Gentleman advanced. Over and above this area, the rest of the area we are discussing, that is three-quarters of the area, forms part of the green belt. At the time the draft order was placed the county council took the view that there was no case for the extension of the city boundaries of Dundee to include this part of the green belt for the purpose of housing since, as it was scheduled for green belt, obviously it was not available for housing. Further, there was the feeling that since, at that time, reform of the whole local government structure was impending, it would

217
be better for the tidying-up of the boundaries between the County of Angus, the County of Perthshire and the City of Dundee to await that reform.
It would be fair to say that there was some hope at the time in Angus County Council that Dundee Corporation would have second thoughts and decide to limit its extension to the area within the old Dundee-Newtyle railway line, for which planning permission for housing development had already been granted and which was not a matter of controversy.
The next stage was that in the spring of this year, following publication of the Government's White Paper on the reform of local government in Scotland, the county clerk decided that, since the parishes of Liff and Benvie, within which the whole of this area we are discussing falls, were earmarked for incorporation in the district of the City of Dundee, the expense of a Parliamentary inquiry would not be justified. Hence the council withdrew its objection. The only other objection from an individual had already been withdrawn.
However, as the right hon. Gentleman suggested, the local county councillor for Liff and Benvie was far from happy with this decision. He approached me in the early summer and asked whether, as both objections to the extension order had been withdrawn, there was any further action he or I could take to delay or block the passage of the Bill. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary replied to my inquiry about the matter that when the Bill came forward it would be open to me or anyone else to object to its passage. I informed the local county councillor that in view of the decision of the county council to withdraw its objection I did not feel that I could in all honesty oppose the Bill unless requested to do so by the county council—in other words, unless he could persuade the county council to reverse the withdrawal of its objection.
At the end of July the county council met and decided to support the local county councillor in asking me to oppose the Bill. In the light of that I agreed to object to the formal passage of the Bill. It should be emphasised that in coming to that decision, in effect to reverse the withdrawal of its original objection, it was motivated basically by two anxieties.
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First, I think there was an anxiety that if the Bill went through, and this portion of the green belt around Dundee were incorporated within the boundaries of the city, thereafter there might be moves to erode the green belt by using some of the ground presently in the green belt for housing development.
The second anxiety, which I know was very much in the mind of the local county councillor concerned, was that if the Bill went through unopposed and without any discussion this might be taken as the thin end of the wedge for acceptance of the proposition in the Government's White Paper on the reform of local government in Scotland to incorporate not merely this area but the whole of the parishes of Liff and Benvie and the rest of the Monifieth landward area in the new district of Dundee. This is a proposal to which the large majority of the people in the area are strongly opposed, and their county councillor is representing them in objecting very strongly to the proposal.
It is therefore my purpose tonight to deal briefly with these two anxieties. First, I think it is very important for local opinion in the area to make it clear that even if the Bill goes through there will be no possibility of any erosion of the green belt area included within the scope of the city boundary extension resulting from the Bill through its being rescheduled for housing or other development without the prior authorisation of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. I am assured by the county clerk of Angus that if any suggestion for rezoning any part of the green belt were advanced it would certainly be opposed by Angus County Council. Under those circumstances, there is a very full safeguard for the preservation of the green belt even if the Bill goes through.
The second point that it is important to make clear is that I have made it absolutely clear to my constituents in the area that whether or not the Bill goes through I should certainly seek to do my best to oppose any suggestion, as contained in the White Paper, that the Monifieth landward district and the borough of Monifieth should be incorporated in the Dundee district. It is the desire of the vast majority of the people

219
in the area that they should be incorporated in the Angus district. I know that that is also the desire of the Angus County Council.
I would therefore enter the caveat that if the House decides to give approval to this Bill tonight this would in no way, in my view, prejudge the decisions which we shall have to take later, next year, on the shape and boundaries of Dundee City district, and it would continue to be our intention to oppose any idea of incorporating these parishes and the rest of Monifieth landward district in the city district of Dundee.
Having said that, I am conscious of the arguments which the right hon. Gentleman advanced for the House to give a Third Reading to this Bill tonight, and of the fact that there may well be some strength in his argument that matters would have been better debated at an earlier stage. I have explained the reasons why this did not occur, but in the light of all the circumstances, for myself I would not be inclined to press this matter to a Division tonight.
12.41 a.m.
Mr. Peter Doig: I have listened carefully to the hon. Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne) giving us his reasons for objecting in the first place to this proposal and then proceeding to eliminate them all himself. He raised the question of the green belt but went on to say that he was satisfied that there are ample safeguards for the green belt, even if it is taken over. He said that we should await reform of local government, and went on to explain that that did not really matter either, because the objectors would object to any change in those proposals.
He said that he was raising his objection at the request of Angus County Council. I must say that I find this the most objectionable of all the objections. The draft order was laid by Dundee Corporation to the Scottish Office on 27th November, 1970. There were two objectors subsequently, one the county council, the other a Mr. David Shepherd. Because of those objectors the Secretary of State arranged an inquiry for 28th March, 1972, and then later changed it to 11th April, 1972. Mr. Shepherd withdrew his objection on 31st January, 1972.
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Angus County Council withdrew its objection on 17th February, 1972. There being no objectors left, the Secretary of State abandoned the idea of holding an inquiry, there being no longer any useful purpose in having a public inquiry. In view of the fact that the two objectors had withdrawn their objections the Secretary of State made an order on 11th July, 1972. The Bill was published on 12th July, 1972. Then, just before the House went into the Summer Recess, the hon. Member for South Angus decided to object. He tells us that he objects on the basis that he was requested to do so by Angus County Council.
Quite frankly, I find this whole series of events absolutely disgraceful. In the first place it is a disgraceful waste of public money. It costs a good deal of money to go through this process. The people who will have to pay this money, as far as I can see, are the ratepayers of the city of Dundee. It is the city corporation which has to bear the cost, but when the corporation bears the cost, it is the ratepayers who bear it. I think it is shocking that we have a situation like this, where the procedure is laid down, where people have the right to object, where they avail themselves of the right to object, and then withdraw their objections, and then, at the last minute, on the eve of the Summer Recess, the hon. Member makes objection at the request of an objector who has withdrawn objection. I find this a bit thick.
The Secretary of State may consider surcharging councillors because they do not comply with the provisions of the Housing Finance (Scotland) Act. It is about time that he considered surcharging either the hon. Member for South Angus or the Angus County Council for the public money they have caused to be wasted. It is a bit much meekly to say at this late stage that objection has been withdrawn. Naturally we are glad that the objections have been withdrawn because otherwise there would have been a further waste of public money. It would have been an even bigger scandal if, having intimated that they would withdraw the objection, they withdrew their withdrawal.
It is incredible that a county council and an hon. Member should allow public money to be wasted in this way. I could not allow this opportunity to pass without

221
saying these few words. What has happened is shocking, and if ever there were justification for surcharging anybody, the Secretary of State should look into this case and consider whether the culprits should be surcharged.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

ADJOURNMENT
Motion made, and Question proposed. That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Jopling.]

SHIP REPAIRING (SOUTHAMPTON)
12.47 a.m.
Mr. James Hill: Mr. Deputy Speaker,
"Almost alone among the ports of the United Kingdom Southampton has succeeded in surviving in an almost sylvan setting."
That quotation is from a local newspaper, and it is perhaps the reason why Ministers and decision-makers invariably think that in such an idyllic and prosperous setting ship repairing has the greatest chance of profitability with the least amount of unemployment. This, unfortunately, is far from the truth. In the past two years I have been trying in various ways to point out to the Department of Trade and Industry, and now to the new Department for Industrial Development, that, although Southampton is not in a development or intermediate area, its ship-repairing industry is in dire need of support.
The unemployment figures alone which are issued each month have the usual column for men, women, boys and girls and a fifth and final column for ship-repairing workers. The grand total of unemployed in Southampton on 14th August this year was 4,042–3·3 per cent. of the working population. These figures include the ship-repair workers, totalling 620. Almost 20 per cent., then, of the unemployed are connected with the ship-repairing industry. That is before the 400 employees who are kept on waiting time have been added.
Waiting time is a curious form of payment called fall-back pay in the ship-repairing industry which adds to the
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wages bill each year both of Vosper-Thornycroft and Harland and Wolff approximately £500,000 with no associated productivity. So, to look at it logically, the numbers on waiting time should be added to the total of the unemployed in the industry as they, too, have no work during this period.
It may be of interest to the House to know that in 1965 the labour force in the two local yards was 3,500. It is now about 1,350 and it is still dropping. The projections for the first half of the next year are in the region of 1,000.
I had a letter on 24th May from the Joint Shop Stewards Committee of Vosper-Thornycroft. In it the secretary said:
"Since our last communication with you it has been announced that a further 200 men will be made redundant at the end of July in the ship repair firms of Vosper-Thorneycrofts and Harland and Wolff.
It also has been announced that unless the situation improves there will be further redundancies at the end of the year. I would like to call upon you therefore to pursue this matter with the utmost urgency."
In a speech on 22nd April, 1971, the then Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry said that the Shipbuilders and Repairers Council had produced a report in August, 1970, which showed that the industry had been shrinking for 10 years and to some extent put the blame on the changing world trade routes which did not bring so readily ships to our shores for repair.
In that report there were five recommendations. The first was that the industry should take steps to strengthen itself. There should be closer discussions between unions and management and there was scope for beneficial mergers.
I am happy to say that between the Confederation of Trade Unions and the South Coast Association of Employers there is a great deal of harmony, so much so that demarcation rules are entirely eliminated, on the repair side contract dates for completions have always been met, and for some years there have been no major disruptions in the yards arising from the various productivity agreements. From the talks I had with the union and management representatives only yesterday it would seem that they all favour a beneficial merger and it was felt than this could assist them over some of the

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minor duplications of their various services.
The second recommendation in the report asked that the Government should exceed the 2 per cent. in the payment of shipbuilders' relief to the industry. This could have no bearing on the plight of the repairers unless the shipbuilders were also ship repairers, in which case they could obviously phase some of the advantage into the repairing side of their yards.
The third recommendation was that the report asked that the Government should find ways to persuade shipowners to repair their ships in this country rather than abroad. This the Government dismissed because it was felt that shipowners must be allowed the freedom to decide where it is right and proper to repair their ships.
The weakness in this argument is that, if shipowners such as P and O and the various on-off ferry companies using Southampton, continue to send their ships either to Malta or to the Scandinavian countries from whence they came, when genuine customers who require ship repairing in a hurry need these facilities there will be no ship-repairing industry to give them any service, certainly not in Southampton.
It is well known, and has caused great bitterness, that ships that use Southampton as their home ports are only too willing to go to foreign ports for their requirements, not because they receive any better service, certainly not because they receive any greater efficiency, but because these foreign shipyards are in many cases subsidised by their Governments or pay lower manual rates of pay, therefore being able to quote a much lower tender price.
I will seek to highlight some of the bitterness. I had a letter from the Southampton Trades Council in which its secretary said this:
"Once again, we see ships going to foreign ports for repair, the latest the 'Nevasa' and the 'Uganda' to Malta. These ships use the U.K. for business, cruising from Southampton and taking children on educational trips. Not content for the last two to go to Malta, I understand Vosper-Thornycroft have supplied 100 8 ft. by 4 ft. Formica faced Marinite panels and despatched them to Malta, when again this week—12th February
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—there are again further reductions of the docks workers."
I am told that in the United States there is a levy system which the United States Government charge to their ship owners who have their repairs done outside the United States. Though this may seem harsh, I feel that it is the only way to make ship owners, who are greatly assisted by the British taxpayer, to think of the future of our British ship-repairing yards.
The ship owners will put forward, quite rightly, the opinion that this is not possible since some of their ships never come within several thousand miles of our shores, but I am sure that the Government could plan to make exemptions in these cases.
The next recommendation dealt with the rating and taxation of dry docks. I know that in Southampton this has meant a reduction in the rates on the whole of Southampton docks, so much so that I was in correspondence with the Secretary of State for the Department of the Environment when the city of Southampton pointed out that it was losing an appreciable amount of rateable value on account of the introduction of the new rating formula. One of the city councillors wrote to me at the time as follows:
"It has come before the Policy and Finance Committee that the Department of the Environment proposes to make an Order under the General Rate Act 1967 which will result in the reduction of the rateable value of Southampton Docks from £337,500 to £184,000, equivalent to a loss of rate income of around £109,000 per annum."
Has my hon. Friend any idea whether these savings have been passed on to the users, first of the port, and secondly to the ship-repair yards which use the facilities of the dry docks. As he will well know, four years ago there were six dry docks in action in Southampton. Now there are three and there is the constant fear that one of them, Dry Dock No. 5, may close on pure economic grounds. The utilisation of these dry docks must increase and any further closures would be but one more nail in the coffin of the local ship repairers.
In a letter received from Vosper-Thornycroft in December last year, and repeated in April of this year, the company emphasised that though they realised that the number of ships using the port

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has diminished, this was only the transitional stage in the type of ships using Southampton. When the container jetties are completed, the number of ships using the port will increase and, in their opinion, in 1973 there will be a problem in obtaining dry dock facilities. If shipping owners are to be encouraged to use the facilities of Southampton docks, it is essential to have sufficient dry docks available for the owners to carry out their annual surveys, damage and main. tainenance repairs and, in Vosper-Thornycroft's opinion, another dock will become essential, whether it be a land dry dock or a floating dry dock.
A letter which I received from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport Industries, dated 25th May this year, said:
"The British Transport Docks Board are aware of the concern expressed by ship repairers in the port for whom the loss of passenger liners represents a decline in traditional repair work. The Board's policy has, however, been to capture all the alternative business available this has been done with some success. The most notable examples have been the development of substantial new container trade at the Western Docks extension where considerable capital is being invested, and the provision of roll-on/roll-off terminals in the Eastern Docks to cater for short-sea passenger and freight trades."
The type of ship-repairing for which Southampton is justly famous is the outfitting and renovation of passenger liners. This calls for a great deal of skill and also, such as in the present refit of the QE 2, a great number of men for short periods of time. This is why both Vosper-Thornycroft and Harland & Wolff are most concerned about the question of fall-back pay. They say quite readily that they are paying a substitute for unemployment pay for these men in between jobs. Surely a more equitable way would be to agree with the ship-repairing industry a percentage of the unemployment pay during this waiting time which could go some way towards easing the burden of the ship-repairing management in bringing the employees' wages up to the full fall-back rate. I am sure that any discussion on this point would meet with the greatest enthusiasm of those in this industry.
In Southampton we are well placed geographically, with a two-tidal system and a skilled work force with a high reputation. It is well known in shipping
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circles that Southampton yards are often used for finishing off the work in ships left by other yards. The unions in Southampton have agreed with managements and shipowners to allow crew working during the period in port, a facility very few other ports have. And labour relations are excellent.
What more can they do to help themselves? With the changing pattern in the type of shipping using Southampton? The containers and bulk carriers do not need repair, due to the newness of the ships and the simplicity of the machinery. We are faced with the alternative of having either to appeal to the Government for fiscal aid or additional work or perhaps just let evolution take over and lose our ship-repairing yards for all time.
I appeal to my hon. Friend, "Do not let this good ship founder for want of a ha'porth of tar and lack of consideration." We can only fail if Southampton yards have to compete against foreign yards which obtain their Governments' subsidies, and also with other yards in the United Kingdom which receive Government assistance. Surely the case for Southampton is too strong to deny. I finish by asking whether my hon. Friend is aware of the difference between an unemployed man in the Clydeside and an unemployed man in Southampton. They both face the same hardships but, once again, it is obvious that with the cost of living in the South being what it is, the Southampton man will suffer the most.
1.2 a.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Anthony Grant): I listened with great interest to what my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. James Hill) said and to the persuasive case he makes about the difficulties which ship-repairing firms are encountering in Southampton. I have some familiarity with what he said, partly from my own knowledge and sources of information, and partly from having heard him and the hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. R. C. Mitchell) speaking on the subject just before the Summer Recess.
As his last point, my hon. Friend made the contrast between unemployment in Clydeside and unemployment in Southampton. I must tell him that I have just come back from a visit to Clydeside,

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and there is a very real difference: it is the prospect of employment. I do not think that it would be necessarily right to relate the two cases as being similar in any degree.
It is undoubtedly true that employment in ship repair in Southampton has shown a declining trend for a number of years. I would not like to be dogmatic about the extent of the decline, but it is probably true to say that in five years the labour force has fallen by about 25 per cent. If we look at ship repair as a whole, and not merely at Southampton, we see a number of reasons why demand for the industry's services should have slackened. The age of the UK merchant fleet has been falling—younger ships—and small ships are frequently replaced by a smaller number of large modern vessels which have stronger protective finishes than their predecessors had, and which are equipped to carry out many of their repairs at sea. Intervals between major surveys now tend to be longer, and the need for complex repair jobs is sometimes obviated, as indeed occurs in other industries, by replacing complete assemblies or sub-assemblies.
On top of these general factors there is of course the historical fact to which my hon. Friend drew attention of the decline of the seaborne passenger traffic which has traditionally been associated with the port of Southampton.
We must, however, view the movement in this industry against the general background at Southampton. Here we have one of the most prosperous areas of Britain, with a male unemployment rate of only 3·8 per cent., compared with 5·2 per cent. for the country as a whole. I know that my hon. Friend appreciates that we as a Department have to concern ourselves with the country as a whole and with areas where there are much greater difficulties than is happily the case in Southampton.
It is natural, inevitable and, indeed, healthy for some areas of economic activity to decline and others to take up the resources which have been released. A static situation is unthinkable, and in an area such as Southampton, with a strong demand for labour, the effects of decline in one industry are much less serious than they might be in other areas.
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This is proved by the fact that the gradual decline in employment in ship repair has not given rise to a serious unemployment situation even in the shipbuilding and ship-repair industries as a whole in Southampton.
The number of men registered as wholly unemployed in these two industries, for example, was 870 in mid-1970 and 530 in mid-1972. The last monthly figure, I am advised, was 330, and I have been pleased to learn that unemployment in ship repair in Southampton is at present—at present, I accept—non-existent, thanks largely, of course, to the work on the QE2. Indeed, workers are coming in from other areas.
Therefore, the short-term situation is good, though I do not for a moment suggest that that is anything but the short-term situation or that there is not the problem which is concerning my hon. Friend.
Ship repair will probably always be subject to greater fluctuations of work load than are many industries. However, in the context of the situation in Southampton this is a manageable problem, which is not something one can necessarily say everywhere. This view, to my mind, is supported by the fact that the managements of both the major ship, repair firms in the area have been able to take engineering work for other concerns in and around Southampton when the marine side of their business has been slack. This shows commendable enterprise on their part, but it suggests also that in some sectors there is a shortage of skilled engineering labour. There are industries in the area, such as construction, oil refining and, of course, shipbuilding itself which can make use of the skills of ship-repair men; and the unemployment figures which I have given suggest that the great majority of those who moved away from ship repair have found alternative employment.
It should be mentioned also that there is a Government retraining centre in Southampton, which is being enlarged—again, something which not every area enjoys. It offers a wider range of opportunities to acquire new skills for those who participate. I must draw my hon. Friend's attention also to the wider training opportunities scheme, announced fairly recently—in July, I think—by my

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hon. Friend the Minister of State at the Department of Employment. This scheme makes it possible for adult workers to receive awards for training within industry and at commercial and technical colleges.
I wish to make clear that I, for one, do not believe that the ship-repair industry in Southampton is moving inexorably towards extinction. Nor, I am sure, do the major firms there. It may be that the number of men who can be permanently engaged in the industry will be rather lower than at present. But, as I said, this need not be viewed as a tragedy. Southampton will continue to be an important port for passenger and passenger cargo liners. It is only starting its life as a container port but is doing so very impressively.
I looked a few weeks ago at the work which is going on at Southampton as a container port. A great deal of capital investment has gone into the provision of facilities for container vessels in an attempt to diversify the trading pattern of Southampton. The future will bring opportunities to which both sides of industry will be able to adapt themselves. The experienced firms which operate in Southampton have close contact both with their main customers and with the British Transport Docks Board, and it is in the interest of all these that Southampton should offer reliable and competitive ship-repair facilities.
My hon. Friend's comments about the docks relate, as he appreciates, to the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. However, my hon. Friend can rest assured that I will call attention to everything he said in that respect.
My hon. Friend referred to stand-by agreements which, as he recognises, are basically matters for negotiation between management and unions. However, it must be for management to judge what size of permanent work force it is justified in retaining in the light of the orders likely to be received. Making public money available to help meet the cost of stand-by agreement would encourage companies to keep more workers on their books than they might otherwise do. It would be difficult to justify Government assistance in that connection for the ship-repairing industry and not for
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a whole range of other industries which might find themselves in a similar situation. That would not be a productive use of public funds.
My hon. Friend made reference to the American system of a levy imposed upon shipping owners and shipping companies who use foreign ports. I am prepared to study that but I must draw attention to the fact that the circumstances in America are entirely different. We have a much larger merchant shipping fleet than America and as a nation our economy is much more dependent upon it. It must be in the interests of the nation and the shipping industry as a whole that it is able to be as competitive as possible and should not have restraints imposed upon it in a highly competitive world market.
Mr. R. C. Mitchell: Is there no way in which the Government can persuade the ship owners wherever possible to have their ships both built and repaired in British yards?
Mr. Grant: It must be in the interests of the shipping industry and the nation that they can compete with the rest of the world. They can do that only if they can have their ships repaired in the most economic fashion. I am sure that is a matter of which the ship-repairing industry will take note. At the end of the day it is for the industry to be as efficient and competitive in world terms as anybody else.
If hon. Members have any examples of specific unfair competition by reason of subsidising the prices of foreign ship repairers, then we shall gladly look at them, but I should like to have any evidence which they can give in that respect. Subject to that consideration, I do not believe that it would be right to impose a burden on the shipping industry, which has to face certain difficulties.
It may be that I have not covered all the points in the short time which I have had available to me. I do not take such a pessimistic view of the ship-repairing industry in the long term. I believe that it can and will adapt itself to new and changing circumstances. I understand the anxieties of those who work in the industry. I understand the anxiety of a man working in the south as much as I

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do that of a man working on Clydeside or elsewhere. However, I believe that the circumstances do not justify the same degree of Government support and intervention as do other parts of the country. It is however, something which the Government must consider if they are to have a proper regional policy. Nevertheless, having said that, I assure my hon. Friend and the hon. Gentleman that I and my officials will keep in the closest possible touch with the situation at Southampton and with the consequences of change as it may befall the industry. I am only too happy to pursue this discussion with them, if they so wish, and to go into the matter in much greater detail. I am grateful to them for the interest they have shown in what is a very important matter to their con-
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stituents. I ask them to accept that the Government are sympathetic and do understand the problems, but I ask them to realise that it is our task to hold the ring, as it were, not only between the ship-repairing concerns in various parts of the country but also between various other industries which might well, in changed circumstances, seek to obtain the same sort of assistance as that for which my hon. Friend has been pressing. With this—
The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock on Tuesday evening, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at sixteen minutes past One o'clock.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Exeter.

ELECTRICITY SUPPLY AND CONTINGENCY PLANS
LORD ORR-EWING: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have warned the Central Electricity Board that the next strike in the nationalised industries is likely to take place in electricity supply during what could be the coldest period of the coming winter and what action is being taken to prevent the nation being again held to ransom.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE): My Lords, I do not necessarily accept the premise on which my noble friend's Question is based. Nevertheless I can assure him that as part of its normal management responsibilities the industry has, in consultation with the Government, formulated plans to meet foreseeable contingencies for whatever reason they may arise. These plans are kept under regular review and are revised as necessary as circumstances change. I am anxious not to say anything that could be regarded as prejudicing the negotiations between the Electricity Council and the unions which, as your Lordships know, are due to begin to-morrow.
LORD ORR-EWING: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that reply I should like to point out that this Question was first put down some two months ago and I do not know that things were quite as delicate at that stage as they are to-day. But is it not desirable that the public should have as much information as possible on issues of earnings and increases in this industry, so that they may form a judgment of what is in the national interest? Is it not true to say that the
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electricity supply workers in the last two years have received an increase of nearly 40 per cent. in their earnings, and does not this now bring them, even before any further award, marginally ahead of the equivalent average earnings in private industry? Could my noble friend perhaps impress on the Department of Employment and Productivity that it might be in the public interest, so that we can, as a public, form a judgment, if more frequent indices of average earnings were published than is now done, because one sometimes has to wait almost a year before receiving the figures of average earnings and being able to judge what the last wage award produced in increased earnings?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I fully appreciate the question of timing to which my noble friend referred at the beginning of his supplementary question. I can confirm what he said about average earnings. I think the figure is 37 per cent., but comparisons in this area are difficult to make and many factors are involved other than crude weekly average earnings. I will certainly bear in mind what he has said about prompt statistics. The delay is not so very great. The Department of Employment's Gazette, which will be appearing next month, will give the figures for these and other comparable industries up to April of this year, and there is bound to be some delay in compiling and assessing these figures.
LORD ROYLE: My Lords, would the noble Earl not agree that nothing could be more calculated to create disturbance and confrontation in the industrial field than questions such as the one which the noble Lord has asked him? May I further ask the noble Earl whether he would assist his noble friend to drag that Communist from under his bed?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am extremely anxious, as I have said, not to say anything which will prejudice the important and delicate negotiations which are starting to-morrow, and I think it would be a mistake for me to be drawn by questions on either side in that respect. Of course I am not very clear what my noble friend may or may not have under his bed.
LORD ORR-EWING: My Lords, may I reply—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No.
LORD ORR-EWING: My Lords, is it not true that the electricity supply industry has certainly not got a Communist at the head of its trade union, and I should not wish to do anything which would make Frank Chapple's task more difficult. Is my noble friend aware of that?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, the noble Earl or the noble Lord, as the case may be, is well aware of that.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, is not the Minister aware that the questions that have been asked by his noble friend in the past two months have all been likely to damage the relationship between the Government and the trade unions, and does he not think that this Question, in the present difficulty in which the Government find themselves in regard to inflation and in the light of the C.B.I. and the T.U.C. negotiations, is derogatory from the point of view of the Government?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, much though I like and admire the noble Lord, Lord Blyton, and I agree with him on many matters, I cannot say that I agree with him on what he has said about my noble friend.

INDUSTRIAL SITES AND PLANNING
2.43 p.m.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what representations they have received urging the preparation of advance industrial sites (rather than advance factories) in development areas, and the advance identification of sites which would qualify for outline planning permission and are suited to industrial development, when county maps and structure plans are prepared.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (LORD SANDFORD): My Lords, some suggestions
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of this kind have been made. The Government in general encourage the identification of industrial sites in advance of need as part of the process of normal sound development planning. Servicing of such sites once zoned is a matter for judgment in each case in the light of the prospects of early development.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask him to consider drawing the attention of his Scottish and Welsh colleagues to the import of this matter inasmuch as the preservation of our coastline, on the one hand, and the encouragement of industry of to-morrow, on the other, may best be facilitated by such advance planning, the need for which he is well aware?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, we have every reason to believe that both the Scottish and Welsh Offices are aware of that and we are aware of one of the representations that my noble friend mentioned having been received by the Scottish Office.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, does not this Question really raise the whole problem of planning? Does it not indicate the impossibility of dealing with industry in this country and the different areas in which we want to have expansion taking place without a properly conceived national plan?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I think the greater need is for regional studies, sub-regional studies and structure planning from which this zoning and then planning permission for particular local developments all flow.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that much of the industrial development that has taken place in the areas in which expansion is required has come from industries which are of the second grade and never from industries of the first grade, and that consequently we have never had proper development areas?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I do not think I would agree with that observation. If the noble Lord desires to discuss this particular topic more thoroughly, he may agree that a debate on an Unstarred Question would be a preferable way of proceeding.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: My Lords, would my noble friend accept that his Answer will lend encouragement to those of us who want to see the most intelligent and far-reaching planning consistent with freedom and that I personally welcome the line in the reply which he has been good enough to give me?

RHODESIA: BRITAIN AND U.N. RESOLUTIONS
2.46 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why their representative on the Security Council of the United Nations on September 29, 1972, on three occasions vetoed resolutions on the subject of majority rule in Zimbabwe (Rhodesia); why he abstained from voting on a resolution urging the U.S.A. to cooperate in the effective implementation of sanctions, condemning South Africa and Portugal for not doing so, and calling on Britain to convene a representative constitutional conference in Zimbabwe; what were the votes on these resolutions; and whether the full text of these resolutions will be included in the OFFICIAL REPORT Of this House.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, the United Kingdom representative on the Security Council vetoed one of the two resolutions put forward on September 29 as well as two paragraphs in that resolution upon which separate voting was requested. One paragraph called for NIBMAR and the other suggested unacceptable conditions as to how Her Majesty's Government should carry out their responsibility towards Rhodesia.
The United Kingdom representative abstained on the sanctions resolution because it contained no proposals which were likely to advance the work of the United Nations Sanctions Committee. The voting on the first resolution on each occasion was 10 in favour, 1 (the United Kingdom) against, and 4 abstentions (the United States, France, Belgium and Italy). Voting on the sactions resolution was 13 in favour with 2 abstentions (the United
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Kingdom and the United States). Copies of the relevant United Nations documents have been placed, as is customary, in the Library of the House.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that Answer. Do not these votes—of 10 to 1 and 13 to nil—indicate how the United Kingdom is becoming isolated in world opinion on this issue? Would he further explain why the British representative voted against the proposal for implementing sanctions fully by condemnation of the action of the United States of America, South Africa and Portugal in breaking them?
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, I suggest that the conclusion which should be drawn from the voting is that that was the way in which the Security Council and its members voted. It is, of course, for each country to decide in which way it should carry out such resolutions. In regard to the second part of the noble Lord's supplementary question, I would point out to him that the operative paragraph 3 of the United Nations Resolution No. 320 singled out the United States for criticism, and we were not prepared to join in such specific criticism while a number of other countries have continued to break sanctions with impunity. I would further point out to the noble Lord that the United States Administration had itself drawn the attention of the United Nations to the breach of sanctions which resulted from the resumption of imports of Rhodesian chrome, and therefore no action was required by us because it then became a matter for the United Nations.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, in the light of those comments may I ask the noble Earl to indicate what specific action has been taken by Her Majesty's Government at the United Nations to make sanctions more effective, which is an obligation they accepted when they accepted a Resolution of your Lordships' House?
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, this Government, as indeed was so with the previous Government, have always been of the opinion that every step should be taken to make sanctions effective. What is required is not new resolutions, or indeed condemnatory resolutions, but international co-operation by other members to make the sanctions effective.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I asked the noble Earl what specific action Her Majesty's Government had taken to make the sanctions more effective.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, it is not for Her Majesty's Government to force other countries to make sanctions effective. All they can do, as they have frequently done on previous occasions, is to express their desire that other countries will, like Her Majesty's Government, follow the United Nations resolution.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, reverting to the original Question, may I suggest that it is correct to assume that the United States can determine its own foreign policy without gratuitous advice from ourselves or from any other country?
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that the United States is entirely right to have its own foreign policy and to conduct it as it thinks fit.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, is it not a fact that one of these resolutions proposed a constitutional conference representative of all sections of the community in Rhodesia? If it is not possible to hold such a conference in Rhodesia itself, why should not Her Majesty's Government invite to London representatives of the various Parties and communities in Rhodesia to prepare a future Constitution?
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, the United Kingdom representative made it perfectly clear in his speech that while Her Majesty's Government would endorse the underlying purpose of a constitutional conference, the call for a conference to be summoned from outside without the participation of the regime would be more likely to hamper than to help the future.
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, does it not strike Her Majesty's Government as rather odd that since it was the United Kingdom Government which initiated the sanctions against Rhodesia they should now so conspicuously refuse to be in the vanguard of those who wish to implement them with greater force?
EARL FERRERS: No, my Lords. The United Kingdom was in the vanguard of sanctions, and I can only repeat what I said earlier: that it is the Government's desire and wish that there should be co-operation by all countries, internationally, to accord with this United Nations resolution, but we are not in a position to make other countries do that which they do not wish to do.
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, might it not be better not to stand on the letter of the law but to show greater willingness?
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, we have shown willingness; but we did not support a resolution that was wholly condemnatory and not constructive.
LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY: My Lords, can my noble friend say how many countries who were in favour of these resolutions are themselves in breach of the sanctions?
EARL FERRERS: No, my Lords, not without notice.

THE HARRIER AIRCRAFT
2.52 p.m.
LORD ORR-EWING: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will report on the operational serviceability of the Hawker Siddeley vertical take-off Harrier aircraft.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON): My Lords, I am confident that the Harrier will have a long and successful career as a front-line aircraft. The versatility of its design offers great flexibility in deployment and operational use, and we have found, in the three years since it was introduced to service, that it measures up well to the demanding conditions we require of it in the field. As is usual during the early years of a new aircraft, we have introduced, and are still introducing, refinements and improvements. I have no doubt that these will complete its progress towards providing the Royal Air Force, and NATO, with an aircraft of

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outstanding value, well up to the performance we expected of it.
LORD ORR-EWING: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that reply, may I ask him whether help was offered by his Ministry to the Insight team before they published a very slanted report in the Sunday Times recently? And will the Minister confirm that the flight safety organisation, which was also highly criticised in that article, is both efficient and strong, and enjoys a high measure of priority in his Ministry?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, yes, my Department did offer facilities to the Insight team and one member of the team attended a briefing in the Ministry of Defence. I must say that the article does not reflect to any great extent the briefing given, and contains a number of inaccuracies.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, while appreciating very much what the noble Lord has said, may I ask whether he can go some way towards destroying the effect of this highly slanted article? I realise that he does not wish to answer every canard in the Press, but would be agree that this aircraft is a very remarkable achievement of British technology? Does he agree also that we regret the tendency of the newspapers to pour obloquy on any really successful achievement rather than to praise it?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, that comes as well from the noble Lord as it comes from me. I endorse what he says, and I welcome the opportunity which my noble friend Lord Orr-Ewing has given me to make it clear that this is an excellent aircraft and that a great many of the statements in that article were wholly inaccurate. While I am on my feet, perhaps I might answer the second part of the question my noble friend asked me about the Directorate of Flight Safety. This is a highly professional and internationally respected body, and I may say that I know from personal experience how much interest the Air Force Board takes in the safety of crews and the safety of aircraft. I personally regret very much that this article was written.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us whether the
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sales of this aircraft abroad are still continuing or whether they are being held back as a result of the sort of article that has been published?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, I believe, the United States Marine Corps has bought some of these aircraft and there have been some inquiries from other countries. I do not believe myself that that sort of article will in any way endanger the prospects for sale of this aircraft which is really a very fine aircraft indeed.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that one of the ways of eliminating this sort of unfortunate article is to publish, as a matter of course, more information concerning incidents or accidents to Service aircraft? Could he therefore not reconsider his policy in respect of these publications, because it is very important, particularly in respect of transport aircraft?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I do not know that I would go all the way with my noble friend on that point. There are reasons why one does not go into too much detail. For example, what is an accident and what damage has to be sustained before it should be reported as an accident? I think the noble Lord opposite would agree with me that we always give figures about accidents to aircraft which have been written off, but one can go too far in the other direction I might just say that the accidents the Harrier has suffered are in no way abnormal for the first three years after the introduction of a new aircraft into the Royal Air Force.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, if he has ever known of any aircraft produced in this country, whether military or civilian, that has failed to have teething troubles? And is it not a mistake, when we do produce something valuable, to begin to cry "Stinking fish!"?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, not for the first time, or I hope the last time, I entirely agree with the noble Lord.
LORD ORR-EWING: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that this Question appears to have achieved its object?

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Many of us feel that it is deplorable that a small minority of irresponsible young journalists should knock every British invention, British development and every British product and thus give great aid to our competitors round the world and greatly harm our own industry.

ROYAL ASSENT
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONE): My Lords, I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified Her Royal Assent to the following Acts :

Companies (Floating Charges and Receivers) (Scotland) Act,

European Communities Act,

Horserace Totalisator and Betting Levy Board Act.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL
2.58 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE): My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now further considered on Report. In doing so perhaps I owe your Lordships some explanation of the number of stars that appear on to-day's Marshalled List. These were Amendments relating to the Hampshire-Dorset boundary, and after the somewhat dramatic events that took place on the Committee stage the Government tried extremely hard to produce some compromise proposal that would satisfy the very many interests involved. However, after we had published our proposals on the list of Amendments, it became quite clear, following further consultations, that in our efforts to please everybody we had in fact pleased nobody. We therefore thought it wise and in the best interests of the House to withdraw these Amendments, and that is what the stars on the Marshalled List signify.
Moved, That the Bill be further considered on Report.—(Lord Aberdare.)
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, it would be lacking in chivalry to say other than "Thank you" to the Government for their wisdom in leaving the Lymington boundary where the House of Lords placed it at Committee stage. I have a
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question I should like to ask. May I ask the noble Earl whether yesterday's debacle, when the Government were defeated three times, had anything to do with the welcome return of the Government Chief Whip who in one day suffered more defeats than the noble Lord, Lord Denham, had in the whole time of his stewardship? None the less, we are very glad to see the noble Earl and we hope that he will continue in this admirable way. May I also say that the decision on Lymington will give enormous satisfaction in the borough of Lymington; they have repeatedly expressed their gratitude for the decision we took. I will do no more than commend the noble Earl and other noble Lords for their wisdom, in the face also of this incredible avalanche of Amendments that has descended on us.
May I put one further point to the noble Earl? While not disagreeing that he was perhaps right in the circumstances to remove from the Marshalled List all the Amendments connected with the Western boundary of Hampshire or the Eastern boundary of Dorset, those of us who were most concerned in this really objected only to Amendment No. 16A; the other Amendments were concerned with what might be called a sort of straightening out of the boundary, which would also increase the number who would be resident in Christchurch by moving one or two additional wards from the now dismembered Ringwood area. After all, it was the Government who started this by taking out Ringwood. If the noble Earl would be prepared to consider, provided there is full agreement in this matter between noble Lords here—those who represent Hampshire and the New Forest, the noble Earl, Lord Malmsbury, and others, can be recognised by the New Forest heather they are wearing—entertaining an Amendment along the lines of the latter Amendments that the Government have removed, which really relate to this Western boundary, without, of course, touching the Lymington one, which we now regard as fully settled, I think it would be possible to cover the situation, and incidentally be helpful to Dorset, and peace might then break out.
LORD MAYBRAY-KING: My Lords, on behalf of some of us who are very keen on the Lymington issue, may I say

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how deeply grateful we are to the Government for the action they have taken.
LORD DIGBY: My Lords, I have every reason to believe that the border incidents and skirmishes among the tribes of Wessex are about to be settled. As a result of the Government withdrawing these Amendments we have been forced to face reality. This has had a magical effect, and I hope that we may be allowed on Third Reading to consider an Amendment that will appease all parties.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: My Lords, as one who perhaps initiated the fight to keep Lymington in Hampshire, may I also express very deep gratitude to the Government for taking this decision. I assure them that their stock in this very important borough of South Hampshire will never be higher. May I, in answer to one question, have the assurance of the Government that this decision is not in any way going to be reversed in the House of Commons? Otherwise, I would say on behalf of all the people of Lymington that they are very happy to stay in Hampshire. Equally, may I say to the noble Lord, Lord Digby, that all our discussions have not been aimed at Dorset, for which we have the greatest respect.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: My Lords, perhaps I may take the opportunity of saying that Lord Digby and I have already discussed the boundaries and we are agreed, and we hope that others will follow us and will like what we have suggested.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, before the noble Earl replies, may I say that my gratitude is muted; it is the House of Lords who have decided this matter, not the Government.
EARL JELLECOE: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition, for what he has said about. the Chief Whip, and we all welcome his return. I will not be drawn on the noble Lord's further observations about my noble friend because I might be scourged from behind if this were the case. Secondly, I am grateful to noble Lords in all quarters for the reception which these asterisks have received in your Lordships' House. I am
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well aware that Her Majesty's Government are one of the most popular Governments this country has ever had and are now riding on a crest of popularity never yet attained in certain Southern parts of England. I have also noted with attention what has been said by those who have keenly interested themselves in this difficult border area and without in any way wishing to intrude, or to shoot the foxes which more properly belong to my noble friends Lord Aberdare and Lord Sandford, I have already assured a number of noble Lords that if there is a broad consensus of opinion—I think we have been stung sufficiently in these thickets and brambles which around this Dorset frontier to move warily in this area—we would certainly not dismiss the idea of moving a generally acceptable Amendment on Third Reading.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, the noble Earl did not answer the question of the noble Lord, Lord Montagu; namely, that there is no possibility of reversing the Lymington decision in another place? Perhaps we should not press him further. Is he also aware that the spirit of the people of Lymington has been an important factor in this matter?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I apologise to my noble friend. Of course I cannot speak for another place, which sometimes moves in a rather mysterious way. But so far as I know there would be no such intention. I think noble Lords opposite, and indeed noble Lords behind me, can sleep reasonably quietly in their beds over the week-end so far as this particular issue is concerned.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Schedule 1 (Counties and metropolitan districts in England).
3.8 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 17:
Page 227, leave out line 4.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 17, and I invite the House to consider with it Amendment No. 18. I hope this Amendment will also give satisfaction. The Government undertook to look again at the future of local government on the Isle of Wight to see what special or revised arrangements should be made for

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it in the Bill. Their conclusion is that the best solution is for the island to become a separate new county rather than introduce special arrangements for additional functions to be allocated to the island.
The House will recall that on August 1 my noble friend Lord Aberdare repeated an undertaking previously given in another place by my right honourable friend the Minister for Local Government and Development that the Government would be looking again at the position of the Isle of Wight to see what exceptional treatment should be given to the island. We have accepted that some special treatment should be given and we have now concluded (and I believe this will be to the general satisfaction of the House) that the best course is to propose a county separate from Hampshire.
Before coming to this conclusion we considered two possible main lines of action. First, we asked ourselves whether the right course might be to set up some sort of special authority for the island within the overall structure of a county council responsible both for Hampshire and the Isle of Wight. This authority, which might have been either a separate committee of the county council or a separately elected body, would have been responsible for county level functions in respect of the island. We decided against such a course because we regard it as essential that each county council should have full responsibility over the whole range of its functions over the whole of its area. To have breached this principle would have been a very serious step. Moreover, whatever form the island authority took would anyway have been a halfway step to a separate county council for the island.
The course we have adopted is to make the island a county on its own. This corresponds both with the dictates of geography and with the present administrative arrangements. Certain consequences follow from the simple fact that the Isle of Wight is an island, and these have to be taken into account. Going from the island to a Hampshire County Council headquarters in Winchester for meetings would take a considerable amount of time from the day of the county councillors representing the island. The same would apply to an officer travelling to Winchester
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or going the other way on duty to the island. This difficulty has been very powerfully urged upon us by the present Isle of Wight County Council. They presented us with some striking figures of the times involved. Then there are the difficulties of the occasional disruptions by bad weather to ferry services to and from the island; and the inflexibility of the ferries would place an additional restraint on county councillors from the island which nobody else would experience. Again, we had to consider what effect these difficulties might have upon the range of people from the island who would be willing to stand as county councillors in these circumstances.
So we have come to the conclusion that the island should have its own county council. Of course, there is no getting over the fact that the island has a population of only 109,000, which is far below the population of a quarter of a million which we regard as the normal minimum for an authority having responsibility for education and the personal social services, but we consider that the exception is justified. Nowhere else is faced with problems of communication with its neighbours which are in any way comparable. Nowhere else would there be so substantial a population whose county councillors would have such difficulties in representing their constituents. Nowhere else would there be such physical remoteness from the rest of the county.
In accepting this special case we are not ignoring the general presumption on population which we have sought to apply elsewhere to authorities responsible for the major services. On the contrary, what we have here is the recognition that the circumstances of the island are such that to insist on joining it with a mainland county to secure the population levels we now consider desirable would be harmful to the quality of the local government in the island. I think that only making a separate county of the island can preserve that, and for those reasons I commend this Amendment to your Lordships.
3.12 p.m.
LORD JACQUES: My Lords, I come from Portsmouth. I have lived there for nearly 30 years. Portsmouth and Southampton, as neighbours of the island, entirely corroborate the evidence on which the Government have relied and are

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delighted that they have come to this decision in favour of the island. We wish the new county council the best of luck in the future.
LORD MAYBRAY-KING: My Lords, it would be ungracious if someone from the Cross-Benches who lives in Hampshire did not congratulate the Government on fulfilling the pledge that Mr. Graham Page gave in the other place and that the noble Earl gave in this place, to look into the special problem of the Isle of Wight. The Isle of Wight County Council itself will be delighted, the Hampshire County Council is very happy indeed, and the Member of Parliament for the Isle Wight is exhilarated at the decision the Government have made, It is going to be a small county. There will be difficulties ahead, but the new county will start with the good will of the neighbouring county of Hampshire, I thank the Minister for what he has done.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, as a resident of the Isle of Wight, I am sure that my noble friend's statement will be widely welcomed on the island. I should like to thank him for the pledge he gave and the fact that he has gone through with the pledge. May I also congratulate the Isle of Wight County Council and their Member of Parliament, Mark Woodnutt, for the persistence and obviously fruitful arguments they have put forward to the Government? I am very glad that they have been accepted.
LORD REDCLIFFE-MAUD: My Lords, may I add a word of congratulation to the Government for having done what at any rate one member of the Royal Commission would have liked to do, although it was inconsistent with all our principles. I had a feeling myself that it would perhaps be for the strengthening of our general argument if we showed that we were not hidebound and were prepared to make just one exception; but I think that would have been wrong and that my colleagues were right. We went along together with a general recommendation of something like a quarter of a million, and therefore we did not propose that the island should be a separate unitary authority. However, I think that the Government are right to do as they have done. I should also like
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to congratulate them on their timing, because I cannot help feeling that if they had chosen to make this exception a little earlier in the life of the Bill it would have encouraged various other places who were somewhat below the minimum prescribed both by the Royal Commission and by the Government themselves to redouble their efforts to avoid shot-gun marriages and to do various other things which I am glad to say the Government have successfully resisted in most other cases. Therefore may I, from the Cross-Benches and also as a member of the Royal Commission, say how glad I am that this happy solution has been found for the problems of the island, and wish the people of the island the best of luck.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, may I thank all noble Lords for those sentiments, compliments, and thanks, and encourage them to keep up this attitude towards the Government.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 18.
Amendment moved—
Page 227, line 25, at end insert—
("Isle of Wight The administrative county of Isle of Wight.").—(Lord Sandford.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ARWYN LORD ARWYN had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 19:
Page 229, leave out lines 11 and 12 and insert—
("The county borough of Bath.
The administrative county of Somerset.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in view of the result of the Division yesterday, I do not see any purpose in moving this Amendment.
Clause 3 [Chairman]:
3.17 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 30:
Page 3, line 13, at end insert—
("(4) The chairman of a district council shall have precedence in the district, but not so as prejudicially to affect Her Majesty's royal prerogative.")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment formed part of the package of Amendments to do with civic dignities, and at the Committee stage we

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agreed, at the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Champion, that the substantive debate on them should be kept until we reached the main new clause at the end of the Bill. Immediately after having taken that decision, I inadvertently failed to move this particular Amendment, and with apologies to your Lordships I move it now.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for having put this Amendment down and moving it now. What do the words:
"but not so as prejudicially to affect Her Majesty's royal prerogative"
actually mean in this context? Do they mean that only in the case of Her Majesty's being present in the district she will there take precedence over the Chairman, or anyone else?
LORD SANDFORD: Yes, my Lords, and the Lord Lieutenant acting as her representative.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8 [Constitution and membership of Greater London Council and London borough councils]:
3.19 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (VISCOUNT COLVILL E OF CULROSS)THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (VISCOUNT COLVILL E OF CULROSS) moved Amendment No. 31:
Page 6, line 45, after ("of") insert ("metropolitan").
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this is a little drafting Amendment. It inserts the word "metropolitan" so as to enable my right honourable friend to make orders to see that the London borough elections take place in the same years as those of the other metropolitan districts. If this word were not inserted I think the subsection would make nonsense. I beg to move.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, the noble Viscount has said that this is a drafting Amendment, but I think it is a great pity that it was not tabled at Committee stage in order that we might have discussed it more freely than we shall be able to this afternoon. Certainly it is not seen as a drafting Amendment by many people living in the Greater London area. I have received a number of representations with regard to the effect
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it will have, for it provides for London borough elections to be held in the same years as the metropolitan districts. Metropolitan districts, under Clause 7, will have an election every year except the year of county elections, so London will have annual elections too, which is understood by a great many people who have taken note of the tabling of this Amendment. London has always had trienniel elections with the whole of the councillors returning together. This has been traditional for London boroughs and the metropolitan boroughs that preceded them.
I want to touch on the question of metropolitan districts being required to have three member wards or multiples of three, and to ask whether this requirement will also apply to London boroughs when the Secretary of State makes the order. London, again by tradition, has had a varying number of councillors per ward, some with one councillor, others with two, three, four or even more. London local government was completely re-organised less than ten years ago. There was a tremendous upheaval. Ward boundaries were completely redrawn, and some of the reorganisation of wards was not completed until last year. If the Minister is going to require three-member wards, the whole system will have to be upset again. I am not raising a point that has not been raised before. If my recollection serves me aright it was raised in another place, I think by the Member for Kensington South.
If London must be brought into line with the rest of the country, would it not be better if their elections were held in the same years as non-metropolitan districts? I should like to ask whether there has been or whether it is intended that there will be any consultations with the London Boroughs Association on this point? It is understood that the Minister will have discussions before making the orders referred to in Clause 8. This Amendment will commit the Minister before the discussions take place, and London boroughs will have annual elections. As I understand the position, if the reference in Clause 8, instead of being to metropolitan districts, were to non-metropolitan districts, there would be more scope for the discussions when they are held. Elections could then be annual or quadrennial and ward boundaries need

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not be changed. I should like to ask the Minister whether further thought might be given to this matter before Third Reading. Perhaps I should say that unless he is able to give some indication that further thought will be given to this matter it may be necessary to table an Amendment at Third Reading.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, there was a firm undertaking given earlier that no order would be made under this subsection (2) against the wishes of the London boroughs. I think this covers the question of one or three member wards as well. It is only an enabling power that is being taken by my right honourable friend. The difficulty about leaving the Bill as it stands is, as the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, has already said, that if the London borough elections are held at the same time as the district council elections there is more than one method by which district councils can organise their elections, therefore the London boroughs would not know which was being chosen for them and there would be a substantial lacuna in the drafting of the Bill. In view of what I repeated in the undertaking given earlier, that this will not be done unless the London boroughs agree, I hope that the noble Lord will be satisfied. This, as he said, is a matter that could be discussed as part of the preliminaries if anybody suggested making an order. I hope that that will satisfy the noble Lord.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I wonder if the noble Viscount would take up the point which I asked he might consider; that is, at Third Reading to substitute "non-metropolitan" for "metropolitan". If he could give that assurance I should be quite happy.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: By leave, my Lords, I think that is precisely the trouble in the drafting of the Bill as it now is. It looks as if it might be metropolitan" or "non metropolitan". If it is "non metropolitan" there would be the two different methods. If the noble Lord thinks that there is a possible solution in this I shall be glad to look at it again. At the moment I am advised that it would merely create difficulties, but I will certainly look at it again.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 2 [Constitution and membership of Greater London Council and London borough councils]:
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS moved Amendment No. 32:
Page 235, line 30, at end insert—
("(4) In 1974 the ordinary day of election of London borough councillors shall be the first Thursday in May.")
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment also relates to London boroughs, and I hope that it is not so controversial, or at any rate susceptable to so many questions. It is simply that there was a gap in the Bill and the purpose of the Amendment is to ensure that there is no doubt about the day of the election of London boroughs councillors in 1974. It will be the first Thursday in May which is the day for all local elections after 1974. If we do not specifically provide for this I think there will be some uncertainty. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 33:
Page 236, line 47, leave out ("general").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is purely a drafting Amendment. Neither the G.L.C. nor the London boroughs have annual general meetings, and to meet their wishes the word "general" has been removed. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 33A:
Page 237, line 25, leave out from ("council") to end of line 27.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a correction to account for another consequential Amendment missed at the Committee stage. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 9 [Parish meetings and councils.]:
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 34:
Page 7, line 11, after ("Act") insert ("or any instrument made thereunder").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment we considered with Amendment No. 1 to Clause 1. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 11 [Orders for grouping parishes, dissolving groups and separating parishes from groups.]:
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, Amendment No. 35 is another drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 27, leave out ("the provisions of").—(Lord Sandford.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 3 [Establishment of new authorities in England.]:
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, Amendment No. 36 this is another drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 239, line 41, leave out ("date") and insert ("day").—(Lord Sandford.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 4 [Local Government areas in Wales.]:
3.29 p.m.
BARONESS WHITE BARONESS WHITE moved Amendment No. 37:
Page 248, line 7, leave out from ("Machen") to end of line 11.
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, we now revert to territorial Amendments, and I hope that the Government Front Bench is grateful that, so far as Schedule 4 is concerned, we have confined our efforts to this single Amendment. There is a great deal that we should like to say about other matters, particularly Mid Glamorgan and Cardiff, but we have refrained from doing so and I trust that we have earned the gratitude of Government Ministers in this respect. When we discussed the matter at an earlier stage this difficult question of the proposed change in the borderline between Monmouthshire which is to become Gwent and this new county of Mid Glamorgan was discussed and the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, was good enough to say that he would give further consideration to the matter. I am most grateful to him and to the Secretary of State for Wales for having done this. I was able to discuss the matter with both of them during the Recess, but I think that in fairness to the people concerned l should set out briefly the case for our opposition to the pro-
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posals put down by the Government in this Schedule.
The net effect of these proposals would be to take into this new and, in the view of many of us, very unsatisfactory county of Mid Glamorgan, parts of what are now the county of Monmouthshire, which would become the new county of Gwent. I am very well aware of the reasons why these suggestions were made. As a matter of principle in the reorganisation of boundaries, the Government have correctly said that a river bed is not necessarily the best boundary, although historically it may have been so, and that it is wiser Ito take a watershed (we had a good deal of discussion yesterday about contours on another Amendment) which makes a more satisfactory boundary; and this I am not denying for one moment.
This principle is applicable to this Rhymney Valley area with which I have long family connections. At the moment the river is the boundary and it is suggested that a watershed would be more satisfactory. The trouble is that the Government have chosen the wrong watershed. Instead of choosing the western watershed, which would have made good sense, they have chosen the eastern watershed. This is really the nub of the dispute. Had they chosen the western watershed, as recommended by the Welsh Local Government Commission, which pre-dated the Redcliffe-Maud Commission by many years, and as was also suggested in the 1967 proposals for local government reform in Wales, they would not have interfered with communities which have very close historical and present connections one with another.
The western bank of the Rhymney River is a very steep bank. Admittedly, there are three or four small settlements on the western side of the river, but if you take the watershed line it is virtually desert. It is moorland with no inhabitants, other than the sheep and the ponies, and therefore you would be doing the minimum by way of interference with existing communities. If, on the other hand, you take the eastern watershed, which is what the Government have chosen, you will be putting into Mid-Glamorgan communities which have from time immemorial been in Monmouth-shire and which wish to remain in

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Monmouthshire. The present urban district council of Rhymney made it very plain to me that they would have preferred to have the entire Rhymney Valley taken into Gwent. If that was not possible they themselves would still prefer to remain in Gwent. I went there myself, I saw the clerk of the council and the chairman of the council and discussed the matter with' the Member of Parliament and so en. When it was known that I was going to Rhymney, the neighbouring district of Bedwellty also approached me and asked me to go and look at their problems. They have a rather more serious problem in that their community will be most inconveniently divided. For example, a large housing estate with more than 600 inhabitants is on one side of the river, and the school for the children is on the other side. The river will be taken as the division between the two counties and the children will be divided from their school for administrative purposes, though not of course geographically. So in some ways the Bedwellty position is even more tiresome than the Rhymney position.
I appreciate the difficulties of the Government, in the sense that when one gets further down the valley the arguments are not as crystal clear as they are in the upper reaches. But I nevertheless believe that the Government would be well advised to leave the present urban districts of Rhymney and Bedwellty in Gwent, or on the Monmouthshire side of the boundary, and that the consequential adjustments for these three small communities on the western bank could be left to the good sense of the Boundary Commission, which could in due course make adjustments to bring the boundary to the ridge of the western watershed. Therefore, I hope very much that, even at this late stage, the Government will be prepared to have second thoughts on this matter and will revert to what were the original proposals—and, I think, the far better proposals—for the ordering of local government reform in the Rhymney Valley. My Lords, I beg to move.
3.35 p.m.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for what she said about the meetings that we have had on this subject with the Secretary of State. I am also very grate-
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ful to her, and so is he, for the amount of trouble she has taken to go into these particularly difficult matters. In fact, I am really very sorry not to be able to help her by agreeing to accept this Amendment. So many Amendments on the English side have been happily agreed to or forced upon us, that it is a pity I cannot be more accommodating on Wales. But we have gone into this very difficult problem with extreme care and we think it is one where the provisions in the Bill are best left as they stand, with the Welsh Boundary Commission left to make any small adjustments which may be of assistance, particularly in the Bedwellty area.
The basic problem, as I think we are all agreed, is that it would be highly desirable to have both banks of the river Rhymney in one district and in one county, and there are indeed strong arguments which one can put forward for having the whole river area in Gwent. Indeed, this point was very forcefully put in the other place by Mr. Kinnock. But we felt, on balance, that it was right that this whole district should be in Mid Glamorgan, mainly on the grounds that two-thirds of the present population of the district are in Glamorgan. Having taken that decision, we were then bound to find our boundary on the eastern watershed and not on the western watershed. I see the arguments for the western watershed, particularly in the North, but the difficulty is that if the Government decide that the whole district should be in Mid Glamorgan for the reasons that I have given, one then has to find a boundary line which runs along the East.
The difficulty about the boundary which the noble Baroness proposes in her Amendment is that it goes back to the river boundary, and this has unfortunate repercussions in various places where certain developed areas, or areas of potential development, would be on the western side of the river. In the case of Rhymney, there is development at Bute Town, at Pontlottyn and in the region of Rhymney station, all of which, under her proposals, would be in Mid Glamorgan whereas on the other side of the river the main Rhymney urban district would be in Gwent. The same applies in the Bedwellty area, where there are areas of development at Tir Phil and Brithdir which, again, would be over the

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river and in Mid Glamorgan, whereas the other side of the river would be in Gwent. It would also be difficult, as she herself has said, if we accept her Amendments for Rhymney and Bedwellty, to know what to do with Bedwas and Machen further South. Either one says that they too must be in Gwent, in which case you come to the position where the whole district is in Gwent—which is the position we do not want to get into because we think they should all be in Mid Glamorgan—or you have an unfortunate split across the whole of the river itself, with the North of the river being in Gwent and the South of the river being in Mid Glamorgan; and this again is equally unfortunate.
We have looked into the matter very carefully and we have consulted again with all the local authorities. There was no change in their attitudes. Those who are in Glamorgan wanted things to remain as they are, while those who are in Monmouthshire also wanted things to remain as they are. So we have come down to the final conclusion that there should be one new district wholly in Mid Glamorgan, covering both banks of the river Rhymney, but with a reference to the Welsh Boundary Commission so that some of the illogicalities of this boundary, especially in Bedwellty, could be ironed out at a later stage. I hope the noble Baroness will feel satisfied that we have looked at it carefully, and will feel disposed to withdraw the Amendment.
BARONESS WHITE: My Lords, I am indeed very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for his very detailed explanation of what I freely grant is a difficult situation. For myself, I am still not satisfied with the reply. He knows very well that, so far as concerns the small communities that he mentioned—Pontlottyn, Tir Phil and Brithdir, particularly, which are on the western bank—I should have liked to include them in my Amendment, but I understood that the Government were not prepared to take anything other than complete districts. It was for that reason only that I left them out and suggested that that was something which also could well be dealt with later on by the Local Government Boundary Commission, because obviously they ought to be in
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with the rest of the northern part of the valley.
Bedwas and Machen, I think, would also be very much happier if they were left in Gwent, although they had not approached me and therefore I was not in any position to speak for them. I myself think that the whole of the Rhymney Valley would be far happier in Gwent than in this shapeless, amorphous Mid Glamorgan which the Government are proposing. Had they even had the East Glamorgan which was originally suggested, so that everyone in the valley could look to Cardiff as the centre, that would have mitigated one's feelings about taking these areas out of Gwent. As it is, they have no centre to look to, and if the people of Rhymney, which is the place I am particularly concerned with, have to go to Pontypridd, Llantrisant, or wherever it may be, I think they will find it a considerable hardship. I am very sorry about this. I can see that the Government have given real thought to it, and for that I am certainly grateful. I think it is a pity that they have come to the conclusion that they have. It is a pity they started out on this course instead of accepting the western watershed.
We have recently had in Monmouthshire the ceremony of a memorial to the late Aneurin Bevan. It seems to me that the historic memento to him will also be a memento to Rhymney, because of the three great limestone rocks which are the memorial to Aneurin on the Waun-y-Pound Moor, one is named Ebbw Vale, one is named Tredegar and one is named Rhymney. Of course, from now on, if these proposals take effect, Rhymney will no longer be part of that trio, which it has been for very many years. To my mind, this is a cause for sadness. I do not propose to divide the House on this Amendment because I do not think this is a matter of major principle. I have put the Amendment forward for myself and for the noble Lord, Lord Watkins, and not officially from the Front Bench, as perhaps I should have made clear earlier on. I do not propose to withdraw the Amendment because I feel much too strongly for that, but if the House is not disposed to accept it then that is that, and at least we will have gone down fighting.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 27 [Community meetings and councils]:
LORD ABERDARE LORD ABERDARE moved Amendment No. 40:
Page 17, line 27, leave out ("As from") and insert ("For the purpose of exercising functions on and after").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 40, 41 and 42 are essentially drafting Amendments, to make it clear that community councils are to be brought into being as shadow authorities shortly before April 1, 1974, and, where appropriate, are to hold their first meetings before that date. I beg to move Amendment No. 40.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 41.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 44, leave out ("as from") and insert ("for the purpose of exercising functions on and after").—(Lord Aberdare.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 42.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 3, leave out ("as from 1st April 1974") and insert ("for the said purpose").—(Lord Aberdare.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 29 [Orders for grouping communities, dissolving groups and separating communities from groups]:
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, Amendment No. 42A is a drafting Amendment and reflects in the Welsh clauses the same as Amendment No. 35 provides in the English clauses. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 8, leave out ("the provisions of").—(Lord Aberdare.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 5 [Establishment of new authorities in Wales]:
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, this Amendment, No. 43, is a drafting Amendment. Again, it reflects in the Welsh clauses the same as Amendment No. 36 provides in the English clauses. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 258, line 8, leave out ("date") and insert ("day").—(Lord Aberdare.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ABERDARE LORD ABERDARE moved Amendment No. 44:
Page 259, line 15, leave out ("section 44(4) and (5)") and insert ("sections 44(4) and (Temporary appointment of members of district, parish and community councils)").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment ties in with a future Amendment, No. 47, which my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross will be moving; and, if it is convenient to your Lordships, I suggest that we take the substantive debate on Amendment No. 47. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 40 [Returning officers at parliamentary elections]:
3.47 p.m.
BARONESS WHITE BARONESS WHITE moved Amendment No. 44A:
Page 23, line 11, leave out ("the sheriff of the county") and insert ("the chairman of the county council").
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in this Amendment I revert to a matter that we have discussed on two previous occasions; namely, the fact that in this Bill we are taking steps which would at least assist to perpetuate the office of high sheriff in county areas. I would make it clear that I am not here speaking in any way of those sheriffs who are appointed by elected councils in certain cities and in London. They are quite different because they owe their appointment and their office to bodies which are themselves elected, and therefore they have in them a certain democratic element. If elected councils which have these rights to appoint sheriffs wish to continue to do so, then one can assume that they are representing the feelings of people in their areas, whom they represent, and one would not wish to interfere with that.
The sheriffs I am referring to are those who are not "picked", as Hansard said, but "pricked" each year by Her Majesty from three names which are submitted to her, and which we are proposing should continue to be submitted to her, by the Lords Lieutenants of the counties. These persons, who are almost always gentlemen—not always, I think, but almost

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always—are presumably chosen because they have sufficient means to provide a luncheon for the judges and certain selected guests every so often, when the judges come round. To my mind, this is an historical anachronism. It leads to an undesirable degree of snobbishness in local society. I do not think that this is something we should perpetuate in this day and age.
I explained on an earlier occasion that, while the sheriff was a very important officer, by the 15th century his main functions had already disappeared, although there were a few functions left in relation to the administration of justice about which I was not quite so certain, as that is not my field. But we obtained from the Lord Chancellor himself (column 1430 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of September 22) his views as to what might possibly be left in this present day and age for sheriffs and under-sheriffs, who are normally solicitors, to do.
So far as I can see, the sheriff has nothing but social functions. The under-sheriff has had up to now some slight functions in relation to the administration of justice; but it seems to me that there is only one of these left. This was confirmed by the noble and learned Lord in the speech in which he said that the Payne Committee on the Enforcement of Judgment Debts had suggested that this one substantive function should also be taken away. The Government have not yet made up their mind; or perhaps they have and perhaps the noble Viscount can enlighten us whether on this important subject they have done so. The only reason I am not proposing the complete abolition of sheriffs is that until the Government have made up their mind on that matter, I suppose they still do some good. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, when asked what functions remained for a sheriff, said that, so far as the administration of justice is concerned he thought, although he was not quite sure, there might be one or two vestigial functions—
"but there would be nothing left for them to do in the administration of justice that would cause me a moment's anxiety in the course of a year."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22/9/72, col. 1430.]
If there is nothing left in the administration of justice that would cause the Lord Chancellor a moment's anxiety, why should we perpetuate this anachronistic
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office which, I repeat, has now nothing left of substance except what I regard as, on the whole, a socially undesirable element.
We have, as we all know, Her Majesty's direct representative in the Lord Lieutenant of the County. He has a number of functions to perform. I was astonished when once sitting next to a Lord Lieutenant at luncheon he explained what he had to do. I was quite impressed. But I think that the sheriff has nothing to do, except, I repeat, to entertain the judges and such selected persons of note in the county as he thinks suitable to invite to his lunch—and that number must have some relation to the length of his purse. One or two rather wealthy sheriffs also give a ball; but this, too, is a function which it seems to me could be performed by the Lord Lieutenant of the County or the chairman of the county council or some other dignitary.
I do not see why in this Bill we should lend ourselves to maintaining something which is a kind of historical anachronism which in modern democratic society I believe has no proper place. I am not in any way against the element of pomp and ceremony in connection with our representative local government. I think that this is a natural expression of people's pride in their community; and I have nothing against the retention of Mayors or Lord Mayors with their dignities and so on. They are the direct representation of the wishes of the community. But the sheriff is no such person. He has no connection with the community. He is chosen purely at random; his name is put forward by some process of thought (a process which it is not open to us to know about and therefore to comprehend) as someone who should be regarded as suitable to be the high sheriff of his county. Apart from the fact that he must have enough money to pay for the lunch, there is no objective criterion that I can see whereby a sheriff is selected.
I would not presume to ask who advises Her Majesty which of the three names to prick, but I suppose that there is a time factor and the one that appears first on the list probably gets pricked first. This seems to me to be a completely irrational process. The persons chosen are not chosen by a representative body. They perform no direct service any longer to Her Majesty. If they did so, as does the

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Lord Lieutenant, that would be another matter. Their direct functions in the service of the Crown appear to have lapsed in the 15th century; therefore I am not in any way depriving Her Majesty of any service that she herself might receive if she were visiting the area.
For those reasons I have put down what at this stage of the Bill is hardly a nail in the sheriff's coffin but perhaps a tintack. I would suggest that at the very least we should remove from the sheriffs this supposed function of theirs which is to act as a returning officer for Parliamentary Elections. Here I speak with some experience. I was a county Member of the other place for 20 years. I know that in fact the sheriff of the county hardly ever—I will not say nine out of ten times, for I did not fight ten elections—showed up. In all my years as standing as a candidate for Parliament, on two occasions only did I have sight of the sheriff. The job was done by the county clerk or his deputy. If one wants to keep in line with other local authority units in the rest of this clause, it appears to me that while the county clerk will still do the work (and if in a borough or district it should be the major or the chairman of the district council) then it seems to me logical that the person to undertake this function in a county constituency should be the chairman of the county council.
For that reason, as a gesture at least, towards a democratic community in the 20th century, we should agree in this clause that for this purpose only, leaving the vestigial functions to a later stage, the returning officer in Parliamentary Elections in a county division should in future be not the sheriff but the chairman of the county council who was properly elected by that community.
Tim EARL OF CRANBROOK: My Lords, the noble Lord who is to reply is better educated than I, but from what I recall from my history books I think it is indeed poetic justice that the noble Baroness should have moved this Amendment because I seem to recall being told when at school that the sheriffs were appointed to keep the barons in order. It seems entirely apposite that the noble Baroness should now say what one of her predecessors must have been saying when sitting angrily in his keep some seven
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hundred years ago when the sheriff was sent to ask him why he had not obeyed his summons to attend Parliament. Whether it is right and proper that we should go all the way with the noble Baroness, bearing in mind the historical function of this office, perhaps will be decided in a moment; but it is very right and proper that the noble Baroness should exhibit some anger at this minion of the Crown who must have kept her predecessors in order if they cannot so keep her.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, I want to support my noble friend Lady White. We have to recognise in this 20th century that the days of Robin Hood and the Sheriff of Nottingham have really gone. The sheriff of a county is a very charming relic of the old feudal society of centuries ago. His duties until a few years ago mainly consisted of witnessing the executions that took place in connection with the hanging of felons. But that is no longer appropriate because the death penalty has gone. I must say that I find the office of sheriff a very charming one. I speak here as a Deputy Lieutenant of my county—which probably runs somewhat in contradistinction to my normal activities as a fairly active and vigorous Socialist. Nevertheless, I feel that the sheriff should be restricted to strictly ornamental activities and should not take any part in the operation of the democratic machinery of our present electoral system.
My noble friend said that his privileges were confined to providing lunches for the visiting judges of assize, but I must correct her in a slight degree. In my county the high sheriff holds a garden party every year to which I am regularly invited and I enjoy it very much. But in so far as concerns the real activities of a sheriff, as distinct from the ornamental activities, he usually deputes these to an under-sheriff who is usually a solicitor practising in the county town. So I think the sheriff ought to bow down and not pretend to have any part in the democratic activities of our present society.
The chairman of a county council, on the other hand, is a person who is the product of a democratic system, like the mayor who usually acts as a returning officer in a borough constituency. I feel that the high sheriff should no longer try or pretend to interest himself in

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the democratic processes of our society. I think my noble friend is right and I sincerely and vigorously support her.
4.0 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: The noble Baroness, Lady White, gave notice during the Committee stage that she was going to return with her tintack and her hammer, and indeed she has done so. I cannot go any further than did my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor about the administration of justice side of this matter. I do not think any decision has been taken since we were in Committee on this Bill which would throw any further light than my noble and learned friend was able to shed at that time. We are really back to the fundamental point, if it is of all that fundamentality, of whether we do or do not wish to preserve what the noble Baroness has said is an anachronism. She and her noble friend Lord Leatherland have said they take the view that the sheriff should no longer be associated in county areas with the democratic processes in the ornamental role that in fact he will retain under the provisions of this Bill, which is the same role as he has now. I suppose that there are two views about it. For myself and the Government, we cannot see what harm there is in it. Simply to change things because they are an anachronism is not necessarily a very good reason. Nor are we persuaded that the sheriff is any worse an ornamental figure as a returning officer in the county than truthfully would be the chairman of the county council, because, as the noble Baroness said, he could not be round all the constituencies in the same day any more than the sheriff in Flintshire, or any sheriff, would be able to be under the Bill as it is drafted
The subjects discussed with various organisations preparatory to this Bill included this matter among many others. Some people said one thing and some people another but nobody, I think, came up with the suggestion that the chairman of the county council should be the returning officer. All those who wished to depart from sheriffs suggested either a local government officer or the chairman of the district council who, I suppose, would have less ground to cover and would be the returning officer in some constituencies under the provisions in this Bill. In the counties we still have
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sheriffs for some judicial purposes, as my noble and learned friend said. They may be largely ornamental; nevertheless, it is an office which I think is held in some affection, not only by those who occupy it but also by others in the country areas. I am sorry, my Lords, but I do not think that I can advise the House that it is so inconsistent with the democratic processes that we ought to take away this admittedly nominal role of declaring, so far as he can get round to them, the winners of Parliamentary elections in the county areas. I suppose that in the end it is a matter of judgment and for the House to decide, but we are not automatically against anachronisms. The Government have considered this point and have had consultations about it. As I say, the noble Baroness's solution is not one previously favoured, so far as I know, by anybody. I hope, therefore, that if we are going to express a view on this matter it will be that the sheriff is somebody whose ancient office, though anachronistic, is one which is looked upon with sufficient favour for it to be retained.
LORD FISKE: My Lords, I wonder whether in this context it is possible to contemplate the blending of the feudal with the democratic. I say this because I know that if the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, will look through the notes which I am sure exist in the Home Office in respect of the period somewhere about 1964–65, he will find that an attempt was made by my colleagues and myself to upgrade the status of a chairman of a county council, who is possibly the most important man in the county yet somehow has very little status and is not usually shown the respect that is due to his office. Conversations took place on the grounds that it would be possible to combine the offices of chairman of the county council and high sheriff. I do not understand all the legalities and other matters that would arise from such a suggestion. I merely know that on that occasion the proposal fell to the ground because the people to be appointed as high sheriff had been notified for so many years in advance about when they were to occupy the office that it would have meant causing distress to many worthy gentlemen who had the expectation of becoming High Sheriff of London in due course. But I wonder whether the noble

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Viscount would be prepared to consider that suggestion.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I hope that the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, will be able to agree to my noble friend's proposal. That no one has suggested the chairman of the county council before matters not. The Report stage of a Bill provides an opportunity to consider matters which perhaps have been overlooked or which may have arisen after the Committee stage. I think it would be helpful if the noble Viscount could indicate who is responsible for nominating people to hold the office of sheriff. I have been in public life for a great many years and I have known many people who held that office. Sometimes I have been able to glean who would be the next sheriff, but, despite being fairly active, I have never known anybody on my side politically in the county of Surrey who has in any way been involved in considering who is suitable to hold the office. With perhaps one or two honourable exceptions the political complexion of the person has been well known and it seems to follow a particular pattern. We are genuinely disturbed about who nominates the people to hold the office and how it comes about that the names of these people are eventually pricked when they come before Her Majesty. It would be helpful for noble Lords to know this when considering this matter.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, if I may have leave briefly to answer, I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Fiske, who referred to the dignity and proper position of a chairman of a county council, that that is something I had not foreseen would arise on this Amendment and I have not looked at the proposals which no doubt rest in the archives of the Home Office. I shall be glad to do so, but I doubt whether we could resurrect them in time for me to produce a successful answer on this Amendment. My "carrier pigeons" have been criticised in the past and I think that this would be over-taxing even their capacity.
The noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, wants to know the machinery for selecting high sheriffs. To be honest, I do not know. I have seen in the newspapers
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every year a list of three names, one of whom is chosen; and I think it follows that the other two are in contemplation for subsequent years and that a third name is added to the bottom of the list. I was not aware, and I should be very dismayed to find, that any question of political flavour was foremost in the thoughts of those who put forward the names. I can only imagine that whatever goes by way of the "usual channels" in a county is that which is adopted for this process as well. Usual channels are familiar in this House, but they are fairly mysterious. There are, however, usual channels in counties about which I have some faint glimmerings of an idea. I do not think there is anything sinister about it, and I am quite sure that if there is anything political this is most unfortunate and purely fortuitous. No impression ought to go out that there is any desire or possible aim in excluding members of one profession or another from the choice, because that would go against all the principles upon which every such nomination is made, including that of Lords Lieutenant and everything else. I hope that what has happened in Surrey is no reflection of political bias of any sort. It would certainly not have my approval if it was. I am sorry that I cannot help the noble Lord further, but that is the extent of my knowledge.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords. before the noble Viscount sits down, in view of what he has just said, can he explain to us whether it is mere coincidence that the high sheriff is always a Conservative, and usually a retired Lieutenant-Colonel, Rear-Admiral or someone of that sort?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I have sat down. This is the Report stage of the Bill and, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, I think that I must not make another speech.
BARONESS WHITE: My Lords, this is my Amendment, and I think I am entitled to say something further. If one looks at Clause 215 of the Bill it explains at least the external processes whereby the Lords Lieutenant suggest the three names to Her Majesty. Whether they have an advisory committee on this subject, as they have for justices, I doubt. Therefore, as I said, the way in which it is done is completely arbitrary. I was very

1705
much interested in the proposal made by the noble Lord, Lord Fiske. That is something that I should hope at a later point the Government may seriously consider, just as I hope, when they reach a decision about the vestigial functions in relation to judgment debts, they may look again at the whole position of sheriffs, because I think it is something which deserves further thought.
I would ask your Lordships to be so good as to direct your attention to this Amendment, because, although we ranged rather more widely, strictly only this Amendment is before us. The Amendment is concerned simply with the returning officer at a Parliamentary election. The noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, said that we love our anachronisms. Up to a point that is true. But as someone who has been a Member of an elected House, of a democratic House, I feel that this association with the whole Parliamentary system of democratic elections is completely incongruous where sheriffs are concerned. Sheriffs have no part whatever in Parliamentary democracy. As I say, they may be an anachronism, but their validity dates from a period well before there was any democratically elected Parliament in any sense in which we should recognise it. Therefore, I think I am fully entitled to ask for support for this narrow Amendment—and it is a narrow one—that we should accept the chairman of the democratically elected body for the county as being
the returning officer for the county. I regard it as sufficiently important as a point of democratic principle to ask the House to divide upon it.
LORD BRECON: My Lords, would the noble Baroness not agree that in the case of Anglesey, where she was Member of Parliament—
BARONESS WHITE: My Lords, I did not represent Anglesey.
LORD BRECON: I beg the noble Baroness's pardon. How many constituencies were there? In the case of Glamorgan neither the high sheriff nor the chairman of the Glamorgan County Council can possibly attend all the final decisions and announcements of the Parliamentary elections. Other people have to do this, and I think it is better spread in that way.
BARONESS WHITE: My Lords, the position of honour, and the choice which he makes, at the moment lies with the sheriff. If it is to lie with anyone at all, I think it should lie with the chairman of the elected county council.
4.15 p.m.
On Question: Whether the said Amendment (No. 44A) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 44; Not-Contents, 104.

CONTENTS

Archibald, L.

Gaitskell, B.

St. Davids, V.

Arwyn, L.

Garnsworthy, L. [Teller.]

Serota, B.

Bacon, B.

Geddes of Epsom, L.

Shackleton, L.

Balogh, L.

Hall, V.

Shepherd, L.

Beswick, L.

Henderson, L.

Shinwell, L.

Blackett, L.

Hoy, L.

Slater, L.

Blyton, L.

Jacques, L.

Stow Hill, L.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Leatherland, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Burntwood, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Summerskill, B.

Champion, L.

McLeavy, L.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Chorley, L.

Maelor, L.

White, B. [Teller.]

Cranbrook, E.

Rathcreedan, L.

Williamson, L.

Douglass of Cleveland, L.

Royle, L.

Wright of Ashton under

Evans of Hungershall, L.

Rusholme, L.

Lyne, L.

Fiske, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

Auckland, L.

Brecon, L.

Ailwyn, L.

Balfour, E.

Bridgeman, V.

Airedale, L.

Balfour of Inchrye, L.

Brooke of Cumnor, L.

Amherst, E.

Barnby, L.

Brooke of Ystradfellte, B.

Amherst of Hackney, L.

Belstead, L.

Caccia, L.

Amory, V.

Berkeley, B.

Carnock, L.

Ashbourne, L.

Blackford, L.

Clancarty, E.

Clifford of Chudleigh, L.

Harvey of Prestbury, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Clwyd, L.

Headfort, M.

Redcliffe-Maud, L.

Coleraine, L.

Hood, V.

Rennell, L.

Colgrain, L.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Ridley, V.

Colville of Culross, V.

Jellicoe, E. (L. Privy Seal.)

Ruthven of Freeland, Ly.

Congleton, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Courtown, E.

Kindersley, L.

St. Just, L.

Craigavon, V.

Lauderdale, E.

Sandford, L.

Croft, L.

Leicester, E.

Sandys, L.

Daventry, V.

Long, V.

Savile, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Loudoun, C.

Sempill, Ly.

Derwent, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Stamp, L.

Digby, L.

Malmesbury, E.

Strathclyde, L.

Ebbisham, L.

Mancroft, L.

Swaythling, L.

Eccles, V.

Mansfield, E.

Tanlaw, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Mersey, V.

Thomas, L.

Emmet of Amberley, B.

Merthyr, L.

Trefgarne, L.

Exeter, M.

Milverton, L.

Trevelyan, L.

Ferrers, E. [Teller.]

Molson, L.

Tweedsmuir, L.

Fortescue, E.

Monck, V.

Vernon, L.

Gage, V.

Monckton of Brenchley, V.

Vivian, L.

Gisborough, L.

Monk Bretton, L.

Wade, L.

Glasgow, E.

Mountevans, L.

Willingdon, M.

Goschen, V.

Napier and Ettrick, L.

Windlesham, L.

Greenway, L.

Northchurch, B.

Wise, L.

Grenfell, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Wolverton, L.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Onslow, E.

Young, B.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Poltimore, L.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

4.24 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Encouraged by my success in redeeming some of the honour, I beg to move this purely drafting Amendment, No. 45.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 41, after first ("a") insert ("district").—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
Clause 42 [Conduct of local government elections]:
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS moved Amendment No. 46:
Page 25, line 11, leave out from ("to") to end of line 12 and insert ("rules under this section relating to the conduct of elections of parish or, as the case may be, community councillors").
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment goes with Amendment 51, and if one is looking at Amendment 51 I hope there is somewhere a manuscript version of it, because there were two misprints in it. If there is not, I will explain it when we come to it. Perhaps I might just move it with a Manuscript Amendment to it when it comes to the point. I will tell the House now what it is. In line 6 the words in inverted commas ought to read:
"of district, parish or community councillors or of the chairman …".
1708
These are typographical errors. I am afraid the machinery for getting them corrected has merely made matters worse and Amendment 50 has suffered from this as well, but I do not think it affects the sense of the matter in any way. They are really technical Amendments the purpose of which is to bring the provisions of Section 165(1) of the Representation of the People Act 1949 into line with the provisions of the Bill, and the provisions of that Act will be applied to the elections of district, parish or community councillors and the chairmen of those councillors at parish meetings by the new election rules as they are at present applied to district and parish councillors or the chairmen of them. They really take account of the introduction of the community councils in Wales, and we bring the lot together and deal with the method of electing them by rules under Clause 42 of this Bill. It pulls together and consolidates the old law under the 1949 Act.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, may we be told the words in the manuscript version?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Certainly. Line 6 of Amendment 51 to which I am speaking as well, should read:
"of district, parish or community councillors or of the chairman of a district, parish or community council …"
LORD CHAMPION: It leaves out the word "of".
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Yes, my Lords, it leaves out the word "of". I am much obliged to the noble Lord. I had been working on an out-of-date Marshalled List. My Lords, I beg to move.
Clause 44 [Omission to hold election or election void]:
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS moved Amendment No. 47:
Page 26, line 37, at beginning insert ("In a case not falling within subsection (1) above").
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this is a matter that was referred to in advance by my noble friend Lord Aberdare under Amendment 44, which is the version of it which applies to Wales. I am referring to Amendments 47, 48, 49, 50 and 56, which is really the substantive matter of the main Amendments to the Bill to which he referred. We are dealing here with irregularities and other difficulties in elections which may occur in parish or community councils. The Amendments are all really on the same point. They are mainly drafting points, but the new clause at Amendment 56 gives the district councils specifically the substance of the power which is now in Clause 44(5), which is replaced by the new clause.
The main provision is to be found in Clause 44(1), but where that does not apply the district council can make the appointment or do anything necessary for dealing with the temporary difficulty. It is very technical. I think it is something that has to be in the Bill in order to cope with what one hopes will be a rare occurrence. I will explain it further to noble Lords if they are interested in the details, but really it is a drafting matter, and what one should notice is that the new clause takes the place of Clause 44(5) in the Bill at the moment. I beg to move.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 48.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 4, leave out subsection (5).—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 49.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 17, leave out first ("to") and insert ("and").—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
4.31 p.m.
Schedule 6 [Amendment and Modification of Election Law]:
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS moved Manuscript Amendment No. 50:
Page 262, line 30, leave out ("44(5)") and insert ("44(4)").
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, the original Amendment No. 50 is the other Amendment where I am afraid that our attempts to correct a mistake have gone wrong. The Amendment should have read:
Page 262, line 30, leave out ("44(5)") and insert ("44(4)").
This is part of the nexus that I have been explaining. I am sorry that this mistake occurred. This is the technical matter that I was discussing earlier. I beg to move.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 51 with the removal of the second "of" in line 6 of the words in brackets.
Amendment moved—
Page 262, line 35, at end insert—
("11. In section 165 of the 1949 Act (application of the 1949 Act to certain local elections), as amended by Schedule 7 to the Local Government Act 1958, for the words from "of district, rural borough or parish councillors", in the first place where they occur, to "before mentioned" there shall be substituted the words "of district, parish or community councillors or to the chairman of a district, parish or community council or a parish meeting shall have effect subject to such adaptations, modifications and exceptions as may be made by rules under section 42 of the Local Government Act 1972".")—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
Clause 67 [Consequential and transitional arrangements relating to Part IV]:
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 51A:
Page 46, line 2, leave out from ("apply") to end of line 4 and insert ("with or without modifications, or extend exclude or amend, or repeal or revoke, with or wihout savings, any provision of an Act, an instrument made under an Act or a charter").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 51A to Clause 67. This clause is concerned with consequential and transitional arrangements relating to changes in local government areas made under Part IV of the Bill. Subsection (2) states that the regulations-making power given to the Secretary of State by the clause may provide for the transfer of property, for the transfer of functions or areas of jurisdiction of public bodies, et cetera, and for the transfer of legal proceedings. This is followed by the statement that the regulations "may apply", followed by the words on the Order Paper. The Amendment inserts the words, "with or without modifications after the word "apply" at the beginning, and "with or without savings" after the word "revoke". These are necessary provisions to make the regulation power sufficiently flexible. In fact this is really a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Clause 68 [Transitional agreements as to property and finance]:
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 51B:
Page 47, line 28, leave out ("consent of any sanctioning authority") and insert ("approval of the Secretary of State").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 51B and with it about a dozen Amendments to Clauses 68, 168, 169, 261 and Schedule 13. I think a fairly brief explanation covering all of them will suffice. What we are seeking to do with these Amendments is to complete the repeal of the Local Government Act 1933 and the repeal of the financial provisions in four other Acts. These Amendments were not introduced at an earlier stage because the matters with which they deal come more fully into the review of local government finance which has been going on and is to be the
1712
subject of future legislation, but their omission made the Bill incomplete, and the delay in arriving at the final stage of the Bill, which has caused a number of difficulties for us in other ways, has made it possible to introduce these Amendments here. The Amendments, so far as we know, are in accordance with the wishes of the local authorities themselves, even though they may not in every case go so far as the authorities might wish, and the process of consultation has not been as thorough as it would have been in other circumstances.
The fact that these Amendments are being introduced now in order to make these repeals possible does not in any way prejudge the outcome of the main review of local government finance, or in any way limit or confine the discussions on that subject. The Government hope to be able to announce their conclusions in that matter later this year and to introduce legislation at the earliest possible stage thereafter. I have written in more detail to the noble Lord, Lord Champion, on this matter. I hope he will agree that that information suffices for the purposes of these Amendments. I beg to move.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, that these Amendments are something which it was well worth while introducing, even at this late stage. The Amendments to which he has spoken embody a measure of consolidation which appears to me to be well worth while in a Bill of this sort, to bring it up to date. I realise the difficulties in the Department, and particularly with those who have to frame such Amendments, that prevented this from being done at an earlier stage. The fact that it is being done now is something which I welcome. I am happy to say that there will be no opposition so far as the Opposition Front Bench is concerned. The Amendments, if I understand them, are practically entirely consolidation. There are slight differences embodied, but only such as would normally be embodied in a consolidation measure. That being the case, I think the House could accept these Amendments and give them a blessing.
VISCOUNT SIMON: My Lords, it is extremely difficult for anyone to follow these things who has not studied them

1713
closely. But may I ask the noble Lord whether there is another amendment to be made with regard to paragraph (a)? As a result of this Amendment the paragraph will read:
"a local authority may borrow without the approval of the Secretary of State, but so that the sum borrowed shall be repaid within such period as the authority with the consent of the Secretary of State may determine:"
But the authority has been removed from this subsection.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, there are a number of other Amendments, two of them to this particular clause. Do they not meet the noble Viscount's point?
VISCOUNT SIMON: My Lords, the other two Amendments deal with the next page. If the noble Lord will read subsection (5), paragraph (a), he will see my point. The second "authority" has to come out. My Lords, I now understand that the "authority" in this case is the local authority. I beg your Lordships' pardon.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I must confess that there are quite a number of parts of this Bill which I have not looked at perhaps as thoroughly as I should have done, but I cannot at the moment see the noble Viscount's difficulty.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 51C.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 2, leave out ("sanction of a Minister") and insert ("approval of the Secretary of State").—(Lord Sandford.)
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 51D.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 18, leave out from ("under") to end of line 19 and insert ("paragraph 16 of Schedule 13 to this Act").—(Lord Sandford.)
Clause 79 [Qualifications for election and holding office as member of local authority]:
4.40 p.m.
BARONESS SEROTA BARONESS SEROTA moved Amendment No. 52:
1714
Page 54, line 40, lease out ("twenty-one") and insert ("eighteen").
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move the Amendment to Clause 79 which stands in my name and in the name of my noble friends. Those noble Lords who were present late on the fifth day of the Committee stage of the Bill will perhaps remember that I moved an identical Amendment then. I withdrew it, after a short debate, to give the Government time to consider the points that had been made and to see whether the House as a whole, and at this stage of the Bill, was prepared to reduce the age of eligibility for membership of the new local authorities from 21 to 18. I hope that this issue will be regarded as one that goes right across Party since all are now committed, I think, to the need to involve the younger generation as fully as possible in the responsibilities as well as in the rights of full citizenship through their active participation in the practical workings of our institutions, in which of course democratic local government plays a dominant part. Even those who perhaps a few years ago were somewhat hesitant about giving further responsibility to the young have more recently gradually grown to accept that denial of responsibility to those who are ready to accept it can contribute to the development of dangerous irresponsibility and general disillusionment with the established democratic processes of our society.
Remembering the wise advice of the noble Earl the Leader of the House at the outset of the Report stage of this Bill only yesterday—namely, that noble Lords should not "re-hash" all the arguments we used at Committee stage—all I intend to do is to remind the House that, in addition to having full legal capacity at 18, young people have now had the right to vote at 18 for the last four years, since, on a free vote, the other place overturned the recommendation of the Speaker's Conference that the voting age should be 20. The only disaster, my Lords, that I can think has occurred as a result of that decision was an election of a Conservative Government at the last Election.
I will therefore try to confine myself to-day primarily to the case that the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, made on behalf of the Government, which as I listened to it, and later read it, I felt

1715
only amounted to a plea for delaying any change in the age of eligibility for election to a local authority, through the medium of this particular Local Government Bill, on the grounds that traditionally it has always been the same as the age for election to another place. He argued that such parity was sensible (I think that was the word he used) and ought to be retained. He also indicated to the Committee that if the Speaker's Conference that was announced on August 2, to consider among 'various matters of electoral law the minimum age for election to another place, was in fact to recommend a reduction to 18 then legislation would be needed and, on the principle of parity he had enunciated, the minimum age for election to local authorities could then be dealt with at the same time in any special Bill brought forward for this purpose. With regard to the timing, I think I am right in recalling that he suggested to the Committee that this might be done early in the next Session and possibly in time for the first elections to the new authorities in April, 1974.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: And in that, my Lords, I was wrong.
BARONESS SEROTA: My Lords, if that is so, I must confess that I feel even more strongly about my Amendment than when I originally put it down.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I wanted the noble Baroness to know that I was wrong at the earlier stage.
BARONESS SEROTA: My Lords. I am grateful to the noble Viscount for explaining the position to the House, but in a sense it strengthens the case that I should like to make on this Amendment to-day. I hope the House will bear in mind the fact that it is very unlikely—in fact, the noble Viscount has now assured us that it will not be possible—to be able to include 18-year-olds as eligible for election in the first set of elections for the new local authorities if the Speaker's Conference were so to recommend as a result of its deliberations. With that consideration in mind, and also the fact that I do not accept the principle of parity with eligibility for election to another place, I must confess that I remain completely unconvinced of the noble
1716
Viscount's argument in favour of the continuing relevance of this principle of parity between eligibility for membership of a local authority and membership of another place.
Surely, that argument is now totally outmoded. It is quite unrelated to the real differences that we know exist between the duties and responsibilities falling upon the elected and salaried Members of another place and those who are prepared to give part-time voluntary service to their local communities at parish, district or county level. The scope, the nature, and I would say above all the time involved in carrying out the various duties of a Member of Parliament to-day are quite different from voluntary service in your own local area serving your own local community. We know that it makes heavy demands on one's free time, but Parliament has decided, rightly in my view, that local government should remain a voluntary part-time service, supported now through attendance allowance but not by salary.
I tried during the Committee stage of the Bill, drawing on my own early experience of membership of a local authority, to show how actual participation in the complex processes of democratic local government at a relatively early age can be an invaluable learning experience for the young which continues on into adult life well beyond the field of local government itself. I am sure that many noble Lords who are Members of this House and who have had similar experience to mine, at all levels of local government, will have had the same valuable opportunities and would surely wish to allow the young to be eligible for membership, and therefore support this Amendment. I would stress the point that this Bill is concerned with only local government, and any decision we make on this clause of the Bill will affect eligibility for only local government.
The other prong of the noble Viscount's argument for not lowering the age of eligibility for membership when we discussed it during the Committee stage of the Bill was to my mind equally unconvincing. Now we have heard from him to-day that it will not be possible, regardless of the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference, for any change in the age to be taken through Parliament

1717
in a special Bill in time for the first elections. Also, we know that, quite apart from the problems of the legislative processes, local parties up and down the country are already in full process of selecting their candidates for the first set of elections from the spring of next year onwards. As I see it, if the major objective of this massive reorganisation that the Bill will undoubtedly involve is to modernise and to bring new vitality and new life into our local government system and local government services, then surely we should not from the very beginning exclude electors between the ages of 18 and 21 from standing as candidates, especially when that particular age group is so closely involved as consumers of the very services, such as education, housing, and public libraries, that local government is constituted to provide.
My Lords, at the Committee stage I recalled the concern, the understanding and the generosity that this House, in my experience, has always shown to the younger generation. Through my Amendment to-day we are, T believe, in a position to demonstrate our belief and confidence in their vitality and the responsibility that the vast majority have. If we accept this Amendment we bring them into full adult participation in the new local democracy that this Bill will establish. I hope that the Government have had second thoughts, and that they will take their courage in both hands and advise the House to accept my Amendment.
4.50 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I will take my courage in both hands, but that courage entails being consistent with what I said before. I am sorry to have to disappoint the noble Baroness who has introduced this Amendment so attractively. I think perhaps it is not surprising that I have not been able to come here this afternoon and say that we have had further thoughts. This is the fourth time that this matter has been discussed on the Bill. It was dealt with twice in another place and of course, as the noble Baroness herself reminded us, she moved the Amendment in Committee.
Once again I appreciate that although this is a very different matter from that
1718
concerning sheriffs it is a matter for judgment, and the judgment that seems to me to be crucial here is whether or not we ought, as we have always done, to fall for the arguments produced by the noble Baroness: that when one is talking about the age for standing for local government one is talking about something quite different from the age for standing for election to another place. Ever since the process of deciding on the question of a minimum age has been part of our public life I think I am right in saying that there has been parity on the decided minimum age. That is so to-day, and it is the view of the Government that the Speaker's Conference, in looking at the question of the minimum age for election to another place, would find that it was seriously embarrassed in coming to an impartial and proper decision on the matter if in advance of their deliberations Parliament had already said that the minimum age to stand as a person to be elected to a local authority under this Bill should be reduced to 18. I, too, do not want to rehash the arguments. I am afraid that the Government stand on parity on this matter, and I would remind the House that the matter is now urgently under discussion. It was put before the Speaker's Conference, and we hope that it is one of the earlier matters—if not indeed the earliest—on which they will announce a decision.
As for the timetable, I wished to let the noble Baroness know that in fact I was wrong at an earlier stage in regard to the date. I do not think that necessarily one could not get legislation through before next April; but in reconsidering I took her point, as she said just now, that the candidates are now being chosen, so that in effect I think it would be impossible to provide a satisfactory piece of legislation which would make any difference to the outcome for those chosen in 1973. Nevertheless, the next opportunity will occur in the following year. Supposing that the Conference should decide to recommend a change to 18 for membership of another place and that this was carried into the field of local government, there are the community council elections in Wales and there are London borough elections in 1974, and thereafter other dates in 1975 and 1976. So I do not think that the delay will be a long one if we do not

1719
make the change now, but that it should come in further legislation, perhaps quite soon.
I am not quite sure how many people between the ages of 18 and 21 will in fact want to stand. I do not wish to say anything to suggest that they would not be admirable members of a local authority. I do not want to deny or contradict what the noble Baroness has said about the vitality and the importance of introducing younger members of the community to the responsibilities of sitting as elected representatives, whether in another place or on a local authority. I am sure that she is quite right about this. They could be valuable people, they could learn a great deal and could contribute greatly to the process of government. I suspect that the ones that one would most like to have may themselves be continuing their studies, which would make things difficult for them; but that is no argument because if the law were changed and they could manage to fit everything in, then good luck to them.
But I think that the judgment that the House has to make on this question is whether we should pre-empt a decision of the Speaker's Conference. It is really as simple as that. I feel pretty certain that if the Speaker's Conference were to decide to make the age 18 for another place, then it would follow automatically that it would be impossible to resist the suggestion that 18 should be the minimum age for local authorities. But if at this stage we decided for local authorities I believe we should make it impossible for the Speaker's Conference to look at this matter with true impartiality and with the true facts before them.
I remind the House—and this was confirmed by the noble Baroness at the last stage, when we were speaking about the terms of reference of the Latey Committee—that one of the things that we eventually decided was in the terms of reference of the Latey Committee but what was left out of the consideration of that Committee was the question of the age of voting; it was dealt with separately in 1969 by the Administration of which the noble Baroness was a member. But in just the same way as the then Government decided to leave out the age for voting, whether in local or in central Government elections, because it could
1720
prejudice the Speaker's Conference, so in exactly the same way I say we ought to leave out of this Bill the decision on the minimum age for standing for local government elections because it would prejudge in the considerations put before the Speaker's Conference the very matters that they are now engaged in dealing with.
Therefore I hope I can persuade the House to be patient on this matter. I know that it means missing the first elections, but I believe it is right that this question should be impartially and duly considered by the Speaker's Conference without our attempting, as it were, to twist their arm in this way. In effect, I think that is what we should be doing if we were to accept this Amendment. Therefore for the reasons that I have given, I ask the House to resist it in the exercise of its judgment.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, I am appreciative of the arguments which the noble Viscount has put forward, but nevertheless I wholeheartedly support the Amendment which has been moved by my noble friend Lady Serota. I think one of the great difficulties that is confronting our society to-day is the feeling of frustration on the part of young people—and when I use the expression "young people" I do not mean irresponsible and overgrown schoolchildren; I mean young people who are studying at universities, at polytechnics, at technical colleges, who are serving apprenticeships and who are working as full-time wage earners. These people, because they are forbidden to take part in the ordinary democratic processes, feel somehow (perhaps mistakenly) that they are something in the nature of second-class citizens. I should like to see them given the full rights of adult citizenship. At present the frustration manifests itself in demonstrations of irresponsibility—and we see plenty of those—and also in a form of hostility towards the older generation.
The noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, has put before us not a complete hostility to this proposal but a delaying tactic. He has asked us to wait until the Speaker's Conference has reported. But we have had delays on the part of the present Government in respect of many matters of great importance which have come before the country. We have had delays in connection with con-

1721
sumer protection; we have had delays in connection with prices and incomes. We have had two years' delay in both of those cases, and I feel that it would be to the credit of the Government and to their advantage if they would grasp these questions as they come before them and tackle them immediately instead of delaying them still further.
The Minister said that it was not known how many people aged 18 would wish to stand for local election. Probably the number would be very small indeed. Nevertheless, we are saying in the Amendment, "Let those who are 18 and who want to stand have the opportunity of standing." I speak not as an 18-year-old but as a Victorian, of whom there are quite a number in this House. Things have changed since we were 18: for example, at that age I was a company sergeant major fighting in France. Having the right to vote, these young people should have this additional right which would help to give them a sense of responsibility, something which is very much lacking these days.
These youngesters are not like we were at 18. Indeed, while many of us are looking to the past and are trying to relate the present to what went before, these young people are on the threshold of adult life and are looking to the future. They are biologically different from us at 18. I do not want to go into personal reminiscences and I will simply say that according to medical evidence they are biologically more advanced than we were. I am speaking of students at technical colleges and universities, apprentices learning skilled trades and young people earning their own living, contributing to their families and in some cases maintaining wives and children, remembering that in the last 20 years people have been marrying younger.
To descend from the somewhat high tone of my argument, I ask the noble Viscount to cast his mind back to last week's Conservative Conference. Who had the influence there? Was it Enoch Powell or the Young Conservatives? It was certainly the latter. We must bear in mind that 18-year-olds are more advanced educationally than we were at that age. They have had the benefit of grammar or comprehensive school education and were not cast out of school at the age of 14, as we were. I sincerely
1722
suggest that if these young people were given the opportunity to serve on local councils at the age of 18 they would immediately feel an increased sense of responsibility and would react accordingly, and that would be extremely good for the sort of society in which we live to-day.
LORD NUNBURNHOLME: My Lords, the noble Viscount omitted one point in refusing 18 to 21-year-olds the right to stand for local government election namely, that if a young man is not capable of doing the job the electors will not elect him. In any event, why should he not have the right to stand? These young people are admirable. Let us give them all the encouragement we can.
BARONESS SEROTA: My Lords, the noble Viscount will not be surprised to hear of my extreme disappointment at his reply. As I listened to him it seemed that he could not adduce one argument against introducing the lower age for local government service other than that it might possibly prejudice the consideration of the Speaker's Conference. I appreciate the noble Viscount's position. As he said, the Government must be consistent. However, I believe from the way he advanced his case that he is personally convinced of the rightness of the Amendment. The House knows that this will come sooner or later. I am asking the House to do it now, when the time is right.
As for the number of young people who might wish to offer themselves for election, none of us knows the answer. My view is that it would, at any rate in the first place, probably be small, for a range of reasons with which we are all familiar. Nevertheless, while even one wishes to stand we should, in a democratic society, make the opportunity available. I take courage from the fact that, apart from the Minister, no noble Lords opposite have spoken against the Amendment. It may be, as I said at the outset, that because this is not a Party issue, noble Lords in all parts of the House will vote according to their consciences. I hope that they will go on record as being in favour of the principle of eligibility for local government election at 18, regardless of what the Speaker's Conference decides is right for the lowest age of eligibility for election to Parliament. I feel hound to divide the House, having

1723
deliberately moved an Amendment in these terms again, because I believe it is the feeling of the House, and certainly of noble Lord on this side, that an opportunity should be provided for the House to vote on this issue.
Resolved in the negative, and Amend-merit disagreed to accordingly.
Clause 80 [Disqualifications for election and holding office as member of local authority]:
5.7 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 52) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 46: Not-Contents, 101.

CONTENTS

Archibald, L.

Jacques, L. [Teller.]

Serota, B.

Arwyn, L.

Leatherland, L.

Shackleton, L.

Avebury, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Shinwell, L.

Bacon, B.

Mersey, V.

Simon, V.

Beswick, L.

Merthyr, L.

Southwark, Bp.

Blackett, L.

Milford, L.

Summerskill, B.

Blyton, L.

Moyle, L.

Tanlaw, L.

Brockway, L.

Nunburnholme, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Champion, L.

Phillips, B. [Teller.]

Wade, L.

Davies of Leek, L.

Platt, L.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Garnsworthy, L.

Raglan, L.

White, B.

Geddes of Epsom, L.

Rathcreedan, L.

Williamson, L.

Hale, L.

Royle, L.

Wright of Ashton under

Hall, V.

Rusholme, L.

Lyne, L.

Henderson, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

Hoy, L.

St. Davids, V.

NOT-CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

Eccles, V.

Monk Bretton, I..

Ailwyn, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Mowbray and Stourton, L. [Teller.]

Amherst of Hackney, L.

Emmet of Amberley, B.

Amory, V.

Exeter, M.

Napier and Ettrick, L.

Ashbourne, L.

Ferrers, E.

Northchurch, B.

Auckland, L.

Fortescue, E.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Balfour, E.

Gainford, L.

Oakshott, L.

Balfour of Inchrye, L.

Gisborough, L.

Ogmore, L.

Balogh, L.

Glasgow, E.

Onslow, E.

Barnby, L.

Gowrie, E.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Belstead, L.

Greenway, L.

Oxford and Asquith, E.

Berkeley, B.

Grenfell, L.

Poltimore, L.

Brecon, L.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Rankeillour, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Redcliffe-Maud, L.

Brock, L.

Rennell, L.

Brooke of Cumnor, L.

Hawke, L.

Rhyl, L.

Brooke of Ystradfellte, B.

Headfort, M.

Ridley, V.

Caccia, L.

Hood. V.

Ruthven of Freeland, Ly.

Carnock, L.

Hylton, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Carrington, L.

Jellicoe. E. (L. Privy Seal.)

St. Just, L.

Clifford of Chudleigh, L.

Killearn. L.

Sandford, L.

Clwyd, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Sandys, L.

Coleraine, L.

Kindersley, L.

Savile, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Leicester, E.

Sempill, Ly.

Cottesloe, L.

Long, V.

Sinclair of Cleeve, L.

Courtown, E.

Loudoun, C

Strathclyde, L.

Craigavon, V.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Swansea, L.

Craigmyle, L.

Mancroft. L.

Swaythling, L.

Cranbrook, E.

Mansfield, E.

Teviot, L.

Croft, L.

Maybray-King, L.

Thomas, L.

Daventry, V.

Merrivale, L.

Vivian, L.

Davidson, V.

Milverton, L.

Windlesham, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Molson, L.

Wolverton, L.

Disby, L.

Monckton of Brenchley, V.

Young, B.

Ebbisham, L.

5.15 p.m.
LORD GARNSWORTHY LORD GARNSWORTHY moved Amendment No. 53:
Page 55, line 25, leave out from ("authority") to end of line 29 and insert
("Provided that the Secretary of State shall by regulation give a dispensation for certain

1725
employees to be relieved of any disqualification which would otherwise apply under this Section.")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, when this matter of disqualifications for election and holding office as a member of a local authority was before us at Committee stage some of my noble friends and myself tabled Amendments in the hope that the Government would either accept them or undertake themselves to introduce Amendments to give tangible form to the sympathy that had been expressed by the Minister responsible when the issue was raised in the other place. I am quite sure that the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, had no thought and certainly no wish to renege on what was optimistically seen by many as an indication by the Minister in the other place to strive until a solution could be found that met the genuine sense of unfairness which undoubtedly exists among people who work for local authorities and which has been expressed quite strongly at annual conferences of staff organisations.
I refer to the OFFICIAL REPORT of another place for July 17 when the Minister said (cols. 213–4):
"What I am looking for is somewhere to draw a line, at which point it would be sufficient to say, Yes, this person may stand and serve as a member of the authority by which he is employed, but when any matters arise on the terms and conditions of his employment he should disclose his interest, not speak, and not vote '. If we can find the right division there, we may have achieved something."
But what the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, said in Committee on September 15 can only be interpreted, my Lords, as a considerable retreat from that position. I have accepted that the Amendments which my noble friends and myself tabled in Committee were unacceptable to the Government. The one I move to-day is quite a different Amendment. It is designed to authorise the Secretary of State to give a dispensation by regulation to certain employees to stand for election. It gives to the Secretary of State the opportunity to draw such a line as he was looking for.
May I remind your Lordships that he said also on July 17, as reported in the OFFICIAL REPORT:
"My own feeling about it is that we are being extremely hypocritical if we exclude all employees of the local authority and do not exclude others who have perhaps a greater
1726
interest—I make no reference to topical cases, but they immediately come to mind—in the affairs of the council and may well be influenced more greatly than employees of the authority would be."
When the matter was before your Lordships' House in Committee there was reference to paragraph 49 of the White Paper, Cmnd. 4584, and the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, then said:
"…there really ought to be a clear distinction, if possible, between the elected member…and the official who gives advice and implements the decisions of elected members…"—[OFFICIAL, REPORT, 15/9/72, col. 697]
I have wondered, my Lords, since he said that, how embracing the word "official" was meant to be, having regard to what the Minister had said in the other place. I appreciate what the noble Lord said when we were in Committee about paragraph 49 in the White Paper, but I hope that what follows in paragraph 50 has some bearing on the matter. There it is stated:
"The Government would be prepared, however, to consider proposals on detailed points relating to the application of the present law."
The Amendment I am moving would allow the Secretary of State further time to consider the position and to use his discretion with great care. It seems to me that the Government have taken a much broader view in regard to the National Health Service. There is no need for me this afternoon to detail the proposals of the White Paper dealing with the National Health Service reorganisation, as set out in Cmnd. 5055, but I think it fair to say that those proposals are obviously aimed at securing the active involvement of those professionally engaged in a way that this Bill, as at present worded, does not seek to involve people in the field of local government.
There is one further aspect I wish to mention, and it is one which gives great concern to many others as well as myself. The noble Lord, Lord Belstead, said (col. 700 of the OFFICIAL REPORT for September 15) in reply to a point I had raised, and when pressed by my noble friend Lady White:
"Employees of new Regional Water Boards and National Health Service bodies will not be disqualified."
That, of course, was a reference to disqualification for service on a local authority represented on a joint board which employs them. Clause 80 does not

1727
define a joint board or joint committee, whereas I would draw attention to the fact that Clause 174 seems to do so. Subsection (1)(a) of that clause refers to a joint board or a joint committee on which an authority is represented, as indeed does subsection (2)(b). I should like to ask whether the area authority of the National Health Service becomes a joint board if a local authority is represented on it. There is a great deal of confusion here. I think the House knows full well that I have an association with the National and Local Government Officers Association. There is a great deal of confusion that needs to be cleared away. If the Amendment I am moving is accepted, I think the position will be met. If it is not accepted, then a fuller explanation or definition of the words this Amendment seeks to delete is very desirable.
As I see the problem, it is not knowing how to deal with pecuniary interests and how to prevent voting or speaking when those arise, since that is covered adequately by Clause 93. The point at issue is simply that of drawing a line above which officers of local authorities are disqualified and employees below that line are qualified to stand for election. The Amendment is intended to meet that position and to clarify the situation in regard to joint boards or committees. I hope it will be accepted. I hope it will be appreciated that there are many who are entitled to stand for and secure election to local authorities who on the face of it have infinitely more to gain by obtaining contracts from a local authority than many of the employees. I would not for a moment suggest that when they seek to get those contracts they have in mind using their position by way of undue influence. The point is that there is no difficulty in controlling the position so far as those people are concerned, and there should be no problem that cannot be overcome. The Secretary of State, given the powers my Amendment would confer on him, could adequately deal with the situation. I beg to move.
LORD WOLVERTON: My Lords, I hope the House will not accept this Amendment, because I feel very strongly, having served for nine years on a county council, although no longer, that it would be wrong that local government officers should serve on a county council of which
1728
they are officers. There is no reason why they should not serve, as under the present law, on another authority. I feel that this Amendment, which puts the responsibility on the Secretary of State to act by regulation, is wrong. Parliament ought to decide itself whether it is right or wrong for a local government officer to serve on a council as a member as well as serving it as an officer. Such an officer has a big responsibility in advising the members on certain subjects, and I think it would sometimes be very difficult for him. I hope the House will leave matters as they are. If it comes to a Division I shall certainly vote against the Amendment.
THE EARL OF BALFOUR: My Lords, I should like to support what my noble friend Lord Wolverton has said. I do not think it is in the interest, either of the employee or of the community in general, that this Amendment should be accepted. I have on a number of occasions known of a borough employee standing as a county councillor or of a county council employee standing as a borough member. It has always created friction and difficulties. Speaking from my limited experience as a councillor, I may say that on one occasion I took the issue up as to whether the chief officials of the county should receive a copy of the minutes of the full council. After discussion these officials came to the conclusion that they would rather not have the minutes as they were not necessarily involved with every department, and they felt that each of them was told what he should know and they felt that it was much healthier if they left anything else alone. I was a little surprised at this answer, but that was their opinion and I did expressly go to seek it. I should have thought it would have been to their advantage to have a copy of the minutes. They firmly came to the conclusion that they would be much happier not to have a copy.
Also I remember that a person who was an employee in the roads department retired and promptly stood as a borough member for his own town. He openly said that as soon as he had a chance he would like to be on the roads committee of the county council. He was duly elected and I think has made a great contribution to that committee. But he is

1729
retired, and I think that is quite different. I am sure it would not have been in the interests of the community if that employee had been an officer of the roads department and was able to stand for the council and be a member of the roads committee. That is not the sort of thing we want. Take the kind of situation that occasionally crops up: there might be some serious committee decision dealing with our relations with the unions or something like that, and I do not think it would be in the interests of people if, say, an employee of that wonderful organisation, NALGO, was also a member of the council. I feel that this status quo should be maintained.
BARONESS WHITE: My Lords, with great respect to the noble Earl, an employee of NALGO could now be a member of the council. I think that he has made a slight error there. Perhaps it applies to a member of NALGO.
THE EARL OF BALFOUR: My Lords, I am not sure that it could be on the same council. Of course he could be a member of another county or borough, but I do not think that this would be in the interests of the county.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I was hoping that the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy—and I was listening with bated breath—would say what category of people he hoped that the Secretary of State would put on one side of the line. As it is, he has merely left the Secretary of State with this awful obligation to draw a line, and he has not given any guide as to where he thinks that the line should be drawn. I should like him to do so before the Minister replies.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I am sure that fundamentally there is no difference between the two sides of the House on this matter. I think it has been made quite clear at every stage when this has been discussed that the Ministers have said that they want to do something about this but that the difficulty is to find the exact place at which to draw the line which would permit some to become members of local authorities and some to be excluded. We recognise that difficulty, and it caused us to put down the Amendment that now appears on the Marshalled List.
1730
What we want to do here is to give the Secretary of State a chance to keep the options open; to permit the Secretary of State to see how the new authorities develop; to see how they get on and what their experience is; to consult them and to some extent to see how the agency clause is going to work out, because this, too, will affect very profoundly the numbers of people who will be excluded, or might be excluded, if we maintain the rigidity in the clause. I believe this to be a point of some importance, otherwise I would not be bothering the House with it at this stage.
So far as the noble Lord, Lord Wolverton, and the noble Earl, Lord Balfour, are concerned, there is surely nothing new about what we are envisaging in the Amendment now before the House. As members of local authorities will know, Ministers have in the past issued circulars granting a dispensation to people living in council houses who are serving on local authorities to speak and vote on matters that affect them in their tenancies and occupation of the houses in which they are living. This has been done in the past by Ministers, as will be known to the Department and, I am sure, to the Minister who is to reply. This has had no consequences which could be regarded as detrimental to the decencies of local government, which I am sure that we all wish to maintain. We do not want to see the standards lowered, but we feel that certain groups of people will emerge—we know some of them now—and I daresay that when my noble friend comes to reply he will mention some of the groups that he mentioned on Committee in replying to the noble Lord, Lord Hawke.
In the Bill we have a rigid line drawn which is quite unnecessary. We believe that with the inclusion of this Amendment we should grant to the Secretary of State power to look at this again as developments take place; the developments which must take place when the Bill becomes an Act. We are looking forward to a great period of reorganisation, a period of reorganisation in which we want certain types of people to have the opportunity of serving on local councils, and I should have thought that our Amendment was one which would commend itself to the Government. I sincerely hope that they will indicate

1731
to us to-night that they are prepared to accept it.
5.35 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND SCIENCE (LORD BELSTEAD): My Lords, I think it is clear from the speeches that we have heard from both sides of the House that there is a difference of opinion on this Amendment despite the fact that it was closely argued by the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, and despite the fact that he said—and with a considerable amount of correctness—that this affects a great many people, and that those people feel extremely strongly about it. But because there is this difference of opinion which has been shown in the debate, I think that it is right to look for a moment at the fundamental principle, which is that in local government officers of a local authority should not become members as well, and that there should be no clash of interest, or even the appearance of a clash. Translating the principle into practice, confusion of the roles of member and officer could lead to difficulties which I do not think have been exposed in this debate, particularly in the position of senior officers exercising a chain of command, because of course junior officers could also become members of their authority if a change was agreed. In the functioning of the authority generally, there could be difficulty because a member might be involved in decisions affecting his own individual work. I simply put these points forward.
As I submitted to the House at a previous stage of the Bill, I think that without a great deal of further thought we could be in danger of impairing the position of strict political neutrality of the local government officer. These arguments, I am bound to put to the House, are accepted in the local government world. It is perfectly true that it has been argued that there possibly should be exceptions; exceptions perhaps for those who are not senior officers but employees whose jobs are really divorced from any policy content. But again on this point opinions are not unanimous.
The noble Lord, Lord Champion, referred to the possibility of selecting groups of people, and said that he felt
1732
that his noble friend in winding up this debate would perhaps refer again to groups of people. It may well be that there are people who could neatly fall into exceptions, but if this were in fact to be carried into law. I think that the Minister in another place made it clear that the Government would wish to carry the local authority associations with them, and at the moment this is something which has not been agreed. Against this background, the Government have therefore thought it right substantially to re-enact the present law on this subject. The noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, spoke of the unfairness of the existing situation and, as I have said, I appreciate the line that the noble Lord has taken on this. But I think it fair to remind the House that under the proposals in this Bill there will be a twofold system of local government; it will widen the opportunities of officers to serve as members of other councils, and it will, for instance, give the opportunity to a man who is an officer serving in a county borough and has been living in a county borough and who until now has had the door to elected service in local government life absolutely closed to him, the opportunity to serve on another authority.
I assure the House that the Government have given careful consideration to see whether some suggested Amendments could be agreed by both sides of the House and with the local government world, but we really have found that there is no simple and coherent line which can be drawn in terms of senior officers, professional, or manual employees. I suggest to the House that we would wish the matter to be left for further consideration when the new authorities have had a chance to start work.
May I finally ask the House to consider the effect of this Amendment. The Amendment would draw a line by first providing that only officers whose appointments are made, or confirmed, by the authority itself should come within the possible ambit of disqualification, and this would free from disqualification a considerable number of officers. So far, so good, but it would lead to serious anomalies between them and other officers who remain disqualified. It really would be purely a matter of internal arrangement or accident as to whether a particular appointment is made, or con-

1733
firmed, by the authority, or whether it is made or confirmed by one of its committees. Under the terms of this Bill, this latter will happen, I think, more frequently rather than less frequently than before. Exactly similar arguments apply in respect of those appointments made by joint boards or joint committees or officers themselves. The persons appointed are in every case appointed to carry out a local authority job.
The Amendment also has the effect (and this is a new step compared with the previous stage of the Bill) that it will require the Secretary of State to free by regulation certain employees from disqualification presumably among those appointed by the council itself. It would comply with the Amendment that the Secretary of State exempted some such employees but not others. Like my noble friend Lord Hawke, I can find no indication as to how the Secretary of State should make his selection. However, I am not criticising the Amendment on the grounds that it is defective, but I really think it would be totally wrong for a fundamental constitutional matter such as eligibility of membership of a local authority to be left to the regulation of the Secretary of State of the day. If opinions of successive Secretaries of State were to differ, as well they might, local government could only suffer in consequence.
Before I sit down, may I answer one specific question which the noble Lord asked about joint boards and joint committees? A joint board is a board constituted by local authorities under a provision such as Section 6 of the Public Health Act 1936 for the performance of functions which would otherwise fall on those local authorities themselves. I think that is the essential part of what I am saying. A joint committee is a committee as described in Part VI of the Bill and the term, do not catch every species of combined authorities. They do not catch governing bodies of universities; they would not catch independently created statutory bodies such as the Metropolitan Water Board, Regional Water Boards and national health service bodies.
The noble Lord, Lord Champion, drew the attention of the House—and I do not think it has been drawn to our attention before—to the effect that the agency
1734
arrangements may well have in this matter, and I think the noble Lord may well have a point here. On Report stage in another place, the Minister for local government said that the Government wished to retain in general terms the principle of the rule about eligibility, but within this we do wish to try to find some line of demarcation which will be acceptable to all, and we wish if we possibly can to take the local authority associations with us in thinking out the right provision. I am bound to say that this Amendment does not satisfy these criteria, and it is for this reason that I must ask the House not to agree to it.
LORD MAYBRAY-KING: My Lords, the noble Lord has raised in his reply a fundamental principle. I wonder whether we might consider that for a moment. We are living in a community where hundreds and thousands of citizens are deprived of their full rights of citizenship merely because they happen to be employed by local authorities, and I think that sooner or later we shall have to get to the real fundamental principle which is that no citizen should be deprived of any rights of citizenship merely because of the nature of his employment. I support the Amendment, ragged and untidy as it is, because it moves a little way towards that principle.
5.45 p.m.
BARONESS WHITE: My Lords, I had not intended to intervene before my noble friend who moved the Amendment replied, because I had hoped that the Minister would have been prepared to meet us at least halfway. I will refer in a moment to the actual Amendment and one way in which we might make it more saisfactory. I would, however, ask you: Lordships to think somewhat deeply and carefully about the point made by my noble friend Lord Maybray-King. Have your Lordships any conception of the number of persons in some communities who may be disqualified by these provisions? I am told that in some communities the proportion may be as high as 15 per cent. of the total electorate. I would ask you to think whether this is a sensible provision. As I understand it, the Bill is saying that persons who are paid by the local authority, no matter what their status, should be disqualified. We are all at one, I am quite certain,

1735
so far as senior officers are concerned, persons who come anywhere within the policy making area of a local authority. It is right and proper that they should be impartial and should not stand for election and commit themselves in any way. On that there is no disagreement in any quarter of the House.
But when one comes down to the bus drivers, to the canteen superintendent, to the person in charge, say, of the cleaning arrangements in the town hall or county hall, to the person in the parks—and the superintendent gardener in the parks, may not be the senior park officer but may be someone in charge of the flower beds, provision for recreation, and so on—is it really suggested that they should be disqualfied from standing, provided that their direct interest is not concerned, as in fair wage negotiations or something of that sort, just as if your direct interest is concerned in apportionment of contract you are expected to declare your interest and not accept any special dispensation, such as council house tenants and so on. Why should we suppose that an estate agent, a surveyor, or an architect or a builder, or anyone of that kind, whose business life is intimately connected with the operations of local government, may perfectly properly be a member of that authority, yet someone who works for the authority but has no provision of policy making of or advising the council directly should not be allowed to stand for election? This concerns very large numbers. This is something which has aroused a considerable feeling of injustice: that persons with business or professional interests are not excluded thereby, even though it is perfectly well known that they have close connections with council business, whereas those, as I say, who are working in capacities which cannot be considered as policy-making in any sense of that word are excluded.
It is suggested that under the proposals of this Bill there would be wider opportunities, owing to reorganisation, to serve on a body which is not a person's employing body. This is true so far as county boroughs are concerned, because the unitary authority will become a double-tier authority. But it is not so in other parts of the country. On the contrary, by the act of amalgamating authorities and making them very much
1736
larger it will be physically impossible for many people to serve on other authorities. If they are full-time employees they just will not be able to get to the meetings because the areas will be so much larger than they are now under the present arrangements. So while it is true that some people in county borough areas will gain, others will lose opportunities for serving in different authorities.
May I turn to the actual Amendment? I see the point mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, that if we accept the Amendment as it is it might cause some difficulties because it would delete all references to appointments made by committees, joint boards or joint committees. Would it be more acceptable to the Government, if my noble friend were willing to agree, that the proposed insertion should come at the end of paragraph 1(a), instead of in the middle? This would have a considerable effect. Would it be more acceptable if, instead of saying, "the Secretary of State shall", one said "the Secretary of State may"? We are trying to help the Government to carry out what they have said is their own policy, which is to try to find some line of demarcation. Unless we put something into the Bill before it leaves Parliament, it will not be possible, without completely fresh legislation. which is always very difficult, for the Government to do what they themselves have said they wish to do.
There should certainly be further consultations and negotiations, possibly between NALGO or other organisations of workers and the local authority associations, about where the line might be drawn. That would leave it open for this matter to progress rationally and amicably, we hope, and then, at the end of the day, when reasonable agreement had been reached, the Secretary of State might by regulation give effect to it. But if we do not put something into the Bill there will be no power to do this, and the further consideration for which the Minister has asked will be fruitless, unless the Government are prepared to find time for completely fresh and separate legislation to deal with this problem, which is very unlikely and which will lead to considerable delays.
I have made two helpful suggestions which might enable the Government to

1737
feel disposed to accept an Amendment at Third Reading, possibly putting in these words lower down or substituting "may" for "shall". That would not commit the Government to anything specific, if no agreement was reached and if negotiations were fruitless. The Secretary of State would not then have to do anything. But if, as we very much hope, the points which my noble friends and I, and the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King, have made, are taken further into account as I believe they ought in equity, in justice and for morality in public life to be, then it will be possible to give some effect to them. So I plead with the Government not to turn this Amendment down out of hand, but to recognise that their own spokesman in another place made it quite plain that he appreciated that there is a very genuine problem here. We should just leave the door open or, as my noble friend Lord Champion said, leave the options open for something possibly to take place in the future. But if we do not put something into the Bill, it will not be possible to give effect to any sort of further consideration.
5.53 p.m.
LORD BELSTEAD: My Lords, with the leave of the House may I reply to the noble Baroness? My advice is that there are about 34 million people over the age of 21, which means that about 5 million people would probably be disqualified if the noble Baroness were right when she talked about one in seven. There are certainly fewer than 5 million people in total employed in local government; in fact, there are under 2 million people in total. Therefore what we are discussing is the disqualification not of about 5 million people but of fewer than 2 million people. My second point is that we really are discussing fewer than 2 million people because, in all fairness, this Bill extends the opportunity for the people whom we are discussing to stand for a local authority, be it at district or county level.
My last point is that I am sorry but I cannot accede to the request which the noble Baroness has made, however reasonably she has made it. I think that if the word "may"—a permissive word—were put in, the Secretary of State would be in an exceedingly difficult position, for the reasons which I have already put to
1738
the House. In principle, this Amendment is not acceptable for the reason given by my right honourable friend the Minister of Local Government in another place. He has been quoted several times this afternoon, but what he also said was that he wanted to get as wide a measure of agreement as possible, particularly with the local authority associations, and I am afraid that at the moment we simply do not have this. For those reasons, I am afraid that I must ask your Lordships to resist the Amendment.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, on a point of order, are we to understand that it is now possible to speak several times on the Report stage, or is it only Front Benchers who can do that?
LORD BELSTEAD: My Lords, I asked for permission from the House and it was granted.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I am grateful to the House for sparing so much time to discuss this matter, and to the Members of your Lordships' House who have taken part in the debate. Those who have listened in Committee and this afternoon will know that I am not worried whether any form of words that I may table as an Amendment are acceptable or not in themselves. What is important is the principle behind them, and nobody would be more pleased than I if the Government said that they were prepared to show a continuing interest and would continue in the endeavour to find a solution. Inevitably, because of the sympathy that was expressed in the other place, this matter must be pressed to a Division this afternoon and, possibly, if we can find another form of words which meets some of the points raised, we may have to come back to it at Third Reading, because it is clear that there are many people on both sides in each place who believe that something ought to be done and that if we try hard enough something can be done. I can only wish that half the ingenuity of thinking was put into finding an answer to this problem, as is being put into finding reasons why no progress should be made.
I intended to take up what the Minister said in the other place with regard to reaching agreement with the local authority associations. In my innocence,

1739
I thought that my Amendment provided an opportunity for continuing discussions with the associations with a view to finding a level at which a line could clearly be drawn. In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, when we were in Committee I set out at what I thought was reasonable length the way in which this matter might be tackled and I drew attention to the progress that had been made, particularly in the field of education. I do not for one moment imagine that we shall find a complete answer to this problem all at once, but it would be well if we could make some beginning. My noble friend Lady White made no claim that 5 million people were being disqualified. What she drew attention to was the fact that the situation varied from district to district throughout the country, and that in certain districts as many as 15 per cent.—
BARONESS WHITE: It is 6½ per cent. overall.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: But there are areas where the figure is as high as 15 per cent, because of differing circumstances. So I hope your Lordships will not feel that she erected a skittle which has been knocked down. In fact, she drew attention to what is a very serious situation. Let me take the noble Lord up on what he said about 5 millions out of 34 millions. He clearly thought that that was an impressive figure, but there are districts where that sort of percentage obtains at the present time. I was grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Balfour, for intervening, because he always enlightens me about the peculiarities of what goes on in the field of local government in Scotland. I never cease to wonder at what happens up there. He presented a picture which I just cannot recognise in terms of what is happening in England. I have been on no local authority where there have been any discussions about chief officers having minutes. Nevertheless, if he is not fully aware of the position
in England, I ask him to accept that this Bill will have very considerable effects in England, and it would be as well if he would come forward a little, over the Border, in his thinking, and realise that perhaps what obtains in Scotland and what satisfies them there is not quite good enough for us below the Border.
My Lords, I hope that the House will recognise that we on this side, seeing here an injustice which is being done to a great many people and being aware of the fact that this problem is going to be solved some day—and one hopes in the not too distant future—are justified in pressing this matter, because the replies we have received generally throughout these debates are the kind of replies that could have been advanced with regard to any progressive measure in the field of the development of democratic government. May I say, before I sit down, that I appreciate very much the kindly courtesy and the great care with which the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, spoke on this Amendment. I thank him in particular for the definitions he gave with regard to boards and committees. What he has said will be studied carefully. Perhaps some of what he said will allay some fears and some criticism, but overall that criticism and that feeling of injustice will remain as far as concerns the mass of people we were considering when tabling this Amendment. I could wish that all those who go into the Division Lobby will have heard the debate, but it matters not, really, because what we on this side are doing is to seek to make clear that here is an issue that is going to be pressed until a satisfactory solution has been found.
6.2 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 53) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 36; Not-Contents, 94.

CONTENTS

Archibald, L.

Geddes of Epsom, L.

Maelor, L.

Beswick, L.

Granville of Eye, L.

Maybray-King, L.

Blackett, L.

Henderson, L.

Peddie, L.

Blyton, L.

Hoy, L.

Phillips, B.

Brockway, L.

Jacques. L. [Teller.]

Rathcreedan, L.

Champion, L.

Leatherland, L.

Rusholme, L.

Collison, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B. [Teller.]

St. Davids, V.

Davies of Leek, L.

Serota, B.

Garnsworthy, L.

Lloyd of Hampstead, L.

Shackleton, L.

Shinwell, L.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Wright of Ashton under

Slater, L.

White, B.

Lyne, L.

Southwark, L.Bp.

Williamson, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Winterbottom, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

Emmet of Amberley, B.

Monk Bretton, L.

Ailwyn, L.

Fortescue, E.

Mowbray and Stourton, L. [Teller.]

Albemarle, E.

Fraser of Lonsdale, L.

Amory, V.

Gage, V.

Napier and Ettrick, L.

Auckland, L.

Gainford, L.

Northchurch, B.

Avebury, L.

Gisborough, L.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Balfour, E.

Glasgow, E.

Oakshott, L.

Balfour of Inchrye, L.

Gowrie, E.

Ogmore, L.

Barnby, L.

Grenfell, L.

Onslow, E.

Belstead, L.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Oxford and Asquith, E.

Berkeley, B.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Rankeillour, L.

Brecon, L.

Redcliffe-Maud, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Hawke, L.

Reigate, L.

Brooke of Cumnor, L.

Headfort, M.

Rhyl, L.

Byers, L.

Henley, L.

Ridley, V.

Carnock, L.

Hood, V.

Ruthven of Freeland, Ly.

Carrington, L.

Hylton, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Clifford of Chudleigh, L.

Jellicoe, E. (L. Privy Seal.)

St. Just, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Jessel, L.

Saint Oswald, L.

Courtown, E.

Killearn, L.

Sandford, L.

Craigavon, V.

Kindersley, L.

Sandys, L.

Craigmyle, L.

Lindsey and Abingdon, E.

Savile, L.

Cranbrook, E.

Lloyd, L.

Sempill, Ly,

Croft, L.

Loudoun, C.

Simon, V.

Daventry, V.

Luke, L.

Swansea, L.

Davidson, V.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Trefgarne, L.

de Clifford, L.

Mancroft, L.

Vivian, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Mansfield, E.

Wade, L.

Digby, L.

Merrivale, L.

Ward of Witley, V.

Dundee, E.

Mersey, V.

Windlesham, L.

Eccles, V.

Merthyr, L.

Wolverton, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Milverton, L.

Young, B.

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

6.12 p.m.
Clause 84 [Resignation]:
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 54:
Page 58, line 35, leave out ("council") and insert ("councillor").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is merely a drafting Amendment to correct a verbal error. The clause to which it relates deals with resignations and to this category of persons, not authorities. Therefore the reference must be to a councillor and not to a council. I beg to move.
Clause 90 [Term of office of persons filling casual vacancies]:
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, Amendment No. 55 is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 62, line 41, after ("under") insert ("the foregoing provisions of").—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, this is the substantive clause that I mentioned on Amendment 47. It is the one that takes the place of the existing Clause 44(5). I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 90 insert the following new clause:
Temporary appointment of members of parish and community councils
".—(1) Where there are so many vacancies in the office of parish or community councillor, that the parish or community council are unable to act, the district council may by order appoint persons to fill all or any of the vacancies until other councillors are elected and take up office.
(2) In the case of a common parish council under which are grouped, by virtue of section 11(5) above, parishes situated in different districts, the reference in subsection (1) above to the district council shall be construed as a reference to the council of the district in

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which there is the greater number of local government electors for the parishes in the group.
(3) Two copies of every order made under this section shall be sent to the Secretary of State."—(Viscount Colville of Culross.)
6.15 p.m.
Schedule 12 [Meetings and proceedings of local authorities]:
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 57:
Page 274, line 42, at end insert—
("(3) The annual meeting of a parish council shall be held at such hour as the council may fix or, if no hour is so fixed, 6 o'clock in the evening.")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 57 which is a minor technical Amendment providing that the annual meetings of parish or community councils shall be held at 6 p.m. unless the council decide otherwise. This is a new provision for this level, but it is paralleled by existing provisions which are being continued to provide that annual meetings of principal councils shall be held at noon unless the council decide otherwise. It all emphasises the part-time nature of service on a parish council.
VISCOUNT RIDLEY: My Lords, I do not wish to prolong this Amendment, but what happens if the parish councillors are not there by 6 o'clock in the evening?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I do not think that that is a matter which can be dealt with by Statute.
LORD SLATER: My Lords, as one with experience within local government, I cannot understand why anything like this should be written into a Bill. Surely the autonomy ought to be left entirely with the councils. We do not need to write into a Bill that they ought to meet at a specified time or give them the alternative of making their own decision. Why not leave the matter to a majority decision of the council concerned? Local authorities, by a majority inside the council, have been responsible for saying when they will meet. There is nothing the matter with leaving them with this autonomy. I know that some people work in factories and that the whole environment has changed. There may be
1744
something in that; but that is a matter to which the local authority can give consideration. I cannot understand why the Government should want to write something like this into the Bill.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, it is not a matter of great moment but in fact there have always been provisions in respect of principal councils that, unless they decide otherwise, their annual meetings should be held at noon. This Amendment parallels that provision in the case of parish councils; but surely it is not a very difficult matter for the parish council to resolve otherwise as soon as they wish to do so.
LORD MERTHYR LORD MERTHYR moved Amendment No. 57A:
Page 279, line 3, leave out paragraphs 23 to 29 and insert—
("1 Part II of this Schedule shall apply to the meetings and proceedings of community councils as if the expressions "parish councils" and "parish councillors" included community councils and community councillors respectively.")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, with the permission of the House I should like to move this Amendment on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, who unfortunately has had to leave for an important engagement. She asked me to move it on her behalf. I must next declare an interest because I am President of the National Association of Parish Councils. In this connection I should like to draw the attention of the House to an Amendment down in my name (Amendment No. 219A) which deals with something of the same subject. The House may agree to debate these two Amendments together—but only in part because there is a little more that I should like to say when my Amendment is reached.
These two Amendments deal with the whole subject of the differences between parish councils and community councils. Let me say straight away that I think that in insisting on putting these differences into the Bill (where they occur in a great number of places) the Government are nothing less than crazy! What has happened, obviously, is that they have been urged by the Welsh Office to call these bodies "communities". and urged by the Ministry of Local Government—if that happens to be the name it enjoys at the moment; I do not know—to call

1745
them by the old name of "parish councils".
My Lords, I want every council of this kind to be called a parish council; I shall come to that when I reach my own Amendment. Why the Government cannot make up their mind as to which of these two answers is the better I am quite unable to understand. I have tried to find out. The only possible reasons I have been able to discover are, first, that there might be some muddle between the parish councils and the parochial church councils. But may I remind the House that it is 53 years since the Welsh Church was disestablished? I have lived in Wales all my life and I have never experienced the slightest trouble in that respect. The Church has got on much better with the Welsh people since disestablishment, and there is now no trouble at all in having parochial church councils on the one hand and parish councils on the other.
The only other possible argument I can discover is that there might be some confusion when successor councils are appointed in the towns. Admittedly some of the towns which are in future to be parishes are quite sizeable places. I purposely leave out the cities; it would perhaps be dangerous to talk about them as no doubt they will insist on still being called cities. So I tried to think of towns in Wales which I could quote as examples of biggish towns which would in future be parishes. Oddly enough, the two which first occurred to me as being quite big places were Merthyr and Aberdare. Then I decided to go on to more neutral territory, so I went to Newport which is a big town. I assume that I am right in saying that in future Newport will be a parish. If I am not, I shall be corrected. What in the world is wrong with calling the Newport council a parish council? I believe that it may be called a town council, but technically I suppose it will rank as a parish.
I thought that there were only two arguments against this, as if they were not enough; but then I remembered the very last Amendment on the Marshalled List moved by the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, to the effect that the annual meeting of a parish council shall be held at 6 o'clock if no other hour was fixed, But what about community councils? Here again,
1746
the Government are going to allow community councils to meet at any hour they please, apparently, but will restrict parish councils to 6 o'clock. In my opinion, that is crazy. I should like to inform the House on the question of whether the Welsh people want the difference between community councils and parish councils. In my opinion, from all I have heard, they do not want it in the slightest degree. Yet the Government insist on it and thereby will waste an enormous amount of time in the years to come. Your Lordships will find that there are pages in this Bill that need not be there at all if the Government would only give way on this point.
In addition to the National Association of Parish Councils there is in every county in Wales, in all 13 of them, an Association of Parish Councils. Every one of those 13 have been consulted on this point—" Do you want your name to be changed to ' community '?"—and without exception every one of those 13 councils have resolved, either unanimously or by a majority vote, that they are against the proposal and do not want to have their names changed. Are the Government really going to persist in this matter against the wishes of the Welsh people? The English people are not so concerned because they are going to retain their name, but the Welsh people are to be compelled, against their wish, to change their name; and so far as I can find out—and I live there—no one wants that to happen.
I shall have a little more to say, though not all that I wanted to say, when I come to my own Amendment. Turning to the noble Baroness's Amendment I see that she wants to leave out the whole of one of the parts of Schedule 12 and to shorten it enormously by inserting the few words in the Amendment. I commend that to the House as a saving of time and trouble. The differences that appear in two parts of this same Schedule, Part II and Part IV, are ludicrous. If your Lordships will look at Part II at page 274 and then look a few pages on at Part IV, you will find that Part H refers to parishes and Part TV refers to communities. The noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, who I entirely support, wants to save a great deal of time and trouble, in this House and outside, by leaving out Part IV and relying on Part II.
What would be the worst that would happen if we did so? There are two differences which would have to be allowed for, and they would be simply terrible, my Lords! May I just tell you what they are? In line 16 on page 275 it states that parish councils must not meet on licensed premises unless no other suitable room is available. The only word I need quote is "suitable". Turning to Part IV of the same Schedule, you will find that the whole of the wording is exactly the same, except that the word "suitable" is left out. There is one other exception which I will come to in a moment. What is meant by a "suitable" room? Will the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, who, I presume, will reply on this Welsh point, tell us exactly what is meant by a "suitable" room? Will the noble Lord please tell us why the word "suitable" could not be left out?
The other point is this. In Part II it says that a parish council, in addition to its annual meeting, must have not less than three other meetings in the year. For some inexplicable reason a community council does not require to have three other meetings, or any other number of meetings, in the year. Why? That is just silly, in my opinion. Can the noble Lord particularly explain why there must be this difference? I repeat, it is crazy. I beg to move the Amendment.
BARONESS WHITE: My Lords, as far as the Amendment which we are discussing is concerned, I think that we on this side of the House would have no difficulty in agreeing with it; in fact, it was to have been moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips. This Amendment would result in some saving of time and space, and I think that the two small points referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, might without any very great difficulty be extended to the community councils as they are to parish councils. On this Amendment I have nothing further to say. My feeling about the noble Lord's Amendment to Clause 241, which I presume is the Amendment he referred to, No. 219A, is that I suppose we ought to discuss it when we come to it. I say frankly to the noble Lord that I was one who gave a great deal of thought to this question when I was a Minister at the Welsh Office. He was quite right in saying that the relationship between
1748
the Nonconformist Churches and the Church in Wales, as it is now, is a good deal more cordial than it used to be when the Anglican Church was the Established Church in the Principality. But that does not mean that some of us have not got long memories, and many of us would prefer not to have something with an ecclesiastical connotation.
It is true that in the rural areas the present parish councils are accustomed to calling themselves that, and perhaps the feeling is not very strong. But I can think of a number of urban and industrial areas where people would not at all take kindly to the word "parish". Therefore I would not wish to make a mandatory change. We felt that "community" was a good word, and that, in the social climate of Wales, it was an appropriate one. Therefore I hope that the Government will not do anything to change that. But that does not necessarily affect the form of the Bill so far as this Schedule is concerned. If the Government wish to save a little time and space by accepting Amendment No. 57A, I do not think we should object.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I listened with great interest to what the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, had to say. He spent a good deal of time discussing his own later Amendment, and I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady White, that we had better discuss that when we come to it. I am grateful to the noble Lord for having fired off his guns early, and I hope to find some suitable answers for him. On the Amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, the Bill has been deliberately drafted on the basis that the constitutional provisions of local government areas and authorities in Wales, including communities and community councils, should so far as practicable be set out separately and not by reference to English areas and authorities. This has been done to enable Welsh people who wish to follow the Bill to have a complete picture of the constitutional position in Wales without having to refer to the English provisions. In fact, at an earlier stage in the origins of this Bill there were those who thought that there should be a separate Welsh Bill; but we have gone some way in providing a special Welsh section, and that is why it is here.
I would say to the noble Lord that community councils are not the same as

1749
parish councils in England, and it is important that their constitution and procedures should be dealt with separately. For example, they include rural parishes, boroughs and urban districts, all of them, without exception, to be succeeded by communities, and most of them with councils. The noble Lord mentioned Aberdare. I have not had an opportunity of checking with Aberdare to see whether they would wish to be called a parish council. I think they would rather resent it and would be far happier to be a community council. I think the same might well go for Pontypridd. These are the reasons why we have chosen the words "community council" but we can come to that point later. Meantime, as the noble Lord rightly says, there are differences. I was aware of only one small difference in paragraphs 2 and 4 of the Schedule, and that is the one about the meetings. It is true that the parish must have four meetings, but in drafting proposals for the communities—which, I repeat, will be successors to urban district councils and borough councils—we thought it better to that extent to leave to their good sense how many meetings they should have. I confess that I was not aware of the point on the "suitable room". I cannot imagine that this was intended. I will have a look at it and see if there is a misprint here, and if either both should be "suitable room" or both should be "room". I hope that the noble Lord will not press this Amendment on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, because I think there is some advantage in having all the Welsh provisions separate. They could then no doubt be taken out of the Bill and published separately.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 57A) shall be agreed to?
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, may I suggest to the Lord Chairman that perhaps it would be better to put the Question a second time? It appeared to me that the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, was not intending to go to a Division.
LORD MERTHYR: My Lords, if I can get a Teller, I will divide on the Amendment. Will the noble Lord act for me? Apparently he will not.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, Amendment No. 58 follows the same point that was made by my noble friend Lord Sandford on parish councils. This relates to the community council. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 279, line 10, at end insert—
(" (3) The annual meeting of a community council shall be held at such hour as the council may fix or, if no hour is so fixed, 6 o'clock in the evening.")—(Lord Aberdare.)
Clause 99 [Admission of public and press to local authority committee meetings]:
6.35 p.m.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD THE EARL OF MANSFIELD moved Amendment No. 59:
Page 68, line 11, after ("apply") insert ("subject to subsection (3) below").
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 59, and it may be convenient if I speak also to No. 60, which is the significant Amendment so far as Clause 99 of the Bill is concerned. As your Lordships well know, this clause was the subject of debate in Committee, when subsections (3) and (4) of what is now my Amendment were deleted by the Government, having been inserted, again by the Government, in another place on Report. There was no Division when the matter was last ventilated in your Lordships' House, and that may well have been in no small measure due to the fact that my noble friend Lord Sandford undertook firmly, and indeed with considerable grace, to review the whole matter and consult local authorities. Whether there has been any consultation, I am rather inclined to doubt, because there has not been very much time since September 18 when the matter was last before your Lordships. Certainly so far as the Greater London Council is concerned, as I am informed, there has been no consultation. But at any rate the matter was left where it was following almost wholesale condemnation by a number of noble Lords with wide experience of the local government field. It is perhaps fair to say that many distrusted Clause 99, in general, and subsections (3) and (4), in particular, or rather the lack of it, as it became.
I make no apology for returning to the matter to-day, partly because, like Topsy,

1751
this matter has "just grow'd", until now it is covered by Clause 99 as it appears, and more especially because with this particular Bill we are legislating for the proper and orderly local government for the next generation or so, and, as I suggest, the dissemination of information as to what the elected representatives of the community are about is no small or insignificant part of local government itself.
I am not going to rehearse again the arguments which were ventilated in Committee—many of your Lordships will be over-familiar with them already—but I wish to emphasise that the anxieties which are felt, and have been felt, by all the associations representing local government organisations are not the anxieties voiced by hidebound,stubborn or undemocratic forces among local authorities. I use those adjectives advisedly, because they were the adjectives used by some Members of another place when this matter was being discussed there. There is now among local authorities, as I am convinced, a widespread desire to give the Press, and indeed the public, as full a knowledge of the workings of local government as is prudent, having regard to the interests of the community as a whole and the employees employed by the community.
My Lords, my objections to the clause as it stands are twofold. There is a personal objection, perhaps, as a lawyer, to the passing of a measure which one can see—and in my submission it is obvious—is going to be bad law from the start. There are, as your Lordships well know, certain committees which are so constituted and whose business is such that it can be predicted that the exclusion of the public and the Press will be justified at every single meeting they have. On a previous occasion, various committees were cited as examples, but I should like to mention one more, which is the Leader's Co-ordinating Committee of the Greater London Council. That is a one-Party committee, consisting of the Leader and Deputy Leader of the Council and the chairmen of some of the more important committees.
This body meets from time to time; it receives advice from the senior officers, and then decides on a very high plane
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the policy for the Greater London Council. I am advised that this body is going to be caught by this clause, if I may use that expression, and the effect of it is that what is in effect the "Cabinet" for the government of Greater London will have to go through the ludicrous manæuvre of passing a motion to exclude members of the Press and the public at every single meeting at which it is intended to discuss matters that it always does discuss. This cannot be good law; and it applies in the same way of course, to other committees, such as staff appeals tribunals and other committees which never make their work public because it is not in the interests of the public that they should do so.
The matter rests, therefore, as I have described. This Amendment has been drafted for inclusion in this Bill at this particular stage only as a compromise. It is not a whimsical idea to promote a power which will affect or detract from the undoubted advantages which Clause 99 gives with regard to the opening up of the committees to public view. All the safeguards which the Public Bodies (Admission to Meetings) Act 1960 provides are included in these Amendments. In other words, if a committee wishes to exclude the Press for twelve months it has to go through all motions which it would have to go through under the 1960 Act and under Clause 99 has to advertise what it is doing under the 1960 Act. It has to give the reasons why it is doing it; and all those, of course, are public. In a few instances—and they are important—it gives the right to one of these committees to conduct its affairs properly, yet in a way that will be very much more convenient and, indeed, very much less irritating to all, including the public and members of the Press who might otherwise attend on occasion after occasion to report the proceedings.
6.43 p.m.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: I am glad, my Lords, that my noble friend has brought Clause 99 again to our attention on Report stage, and I want to support him in doing so. I was one of those who expressed great concern about this clause in Committee, and I am still more concerned now that I see the Government have tabled an Amendment (No. 308A),

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one effect of which will be to bring the clause into operation on April 1, 1973. Whatever may happen to this Amendment, I am absolutely certain that it would be too soon to try to do that by April, 1973. More time is going to be needed to iron out difficulties by discussions between the Government, the local authority associations and others, and I have therefore ventured myself to-day to table an Amendment to the Government's Amendment which would have the effect of postponing for a further 12 months the operation of this clause. That does not relieve us of the necessity of discussing it to-day and seeing whether we can improve the law.
I support my noble friend Lord Mansfield because it seems to me that otherwise an absurd position will arise, such as he described, in the case of those committees which will never be open to the public because of the nature of their work. I do not wish any Amendment to be of too sweeping a character, and it may be that the Government will argue that this Amendment is too sweeping. Nevertheless, I plead with the Government to accept some modification of this clause so that it will not be impossible for a council to pass a single resolution that will exclude the public for a year (or some other suitable period) from debates which, by their very nature, cannot be open to the public.
I wonder whether my noble friend Lord Sandford, in replying, would explain to your Lordships, and particularly to me because I am puzzled about this, how the Bill is likely to work. Supposing that there is a council meeting fixed for October 30, and there is in the council's calendar a meeting of a staff committee fixed for November 30, a month later. The full agenda for that staff committee can hardly be known at the time of the last meeting of the council a month in advance. Yet, if I read the Bill correctly, in conjunction with the 1960 Act, it is only the council which can pass a resolution to exclude the public from a committee. If there is any provision in this Bill or in the 1960 Act to enable a committee itself to pass a resolution excluding the public from some part of its proceedings, I have not been able to find that. If it is clearly foreseen on October 30 that all the proceedings of the staff committee which is to meet on
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November 30 will be of such a character that the public ought to be excluded, then of course it is relatively easy. But as the agenda will not be known by then, and as it is more than likely that some, if not all, of the items on that agenda will not be suitable for discussion in public, what action is to be taken? The council can hardly pass a resolution of any certainty a month in advance. Will it then be that those items which should be on the agenda for November 30 but which ought not to be open to the public will have to be postponed until a further meeting of the council has taken place, or will there have had to be a special meeting of the council beforehand to pass the appropriate resolution?
All these matters may be clear to others, but they are far from clear to me, and I suspect that there are many matters of this kind which ought to be further discussed and clarified before there can be any question of this new clause coming into operation. Indeed, for my part I would far rather the Government withdrew the clause so that the whole matter could be adequately discussed with the local authority associations with a view to an agreed clause being brought forward in the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill which has been foreshadowed for next Session. Meanwhile, my Lords, I strongly support my noble friend in arguing that Clause 99 is not satisfactory as it stands.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I think it would be rather remiss of me not to say that I strongly support the Government and did support the Government when they deleted the subsections which we are now discussing and which the noble Earl seeks to put back into this clause. I am not going to argue the case. This was done by the Government when they actually moved their Amendment. It was supported, and it was carried in Committee here that these subsections should in fact be deleted from the Bill. What I really rose to say was that I, too, have put down an Amendment on precisely similar lines to those on which the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, has put down an Amendment. This must be a case of great minds thinking along similar lines, and I am happy to find that this is the case. But I rather

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think that we ought to leave the argument on this until we come to the Amendment to the Amendment which in fact we shall be moving when we get to this clause—that is, Amendment No. 308A, the new clause to be inserted after Clause 267. I rose originally to say that I very much hope the Government are not going to give way at this stage on something which was thoroughly considered and which was virtually a concession promised in the other House and carried out by the Government when the Bill came here. I think I will leave it at that, but I must add that if this Amendment goes to a Division I shall feel bound to support the Government.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, may I ask a question? A long time ago I was a member of the London County Council for three years. It is my recollection that the Leader's committee was a private Party committee, just as sometimes it was a committee of a whole Party and sometimes it was composed of a dozen chairmen. That surely is now excluded by its very nature, just as in our Party we do not expect to have the newspapers and the Press present at our private Party committee.
LORD MAYBRAY-KING: My Lords, the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, shows how complex this issue is. I think it is worth emphasising at the moment that there is no difference of opinion between anybody in this House about the need for open local government. There is no desire for secrecy in any shape or form. Everybody realises that in some committees on some occasions there must be a moment when the Press and public must be excluded from the deliberations. I am afraid that the Amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, takes us back to Clause 99: it empowers a local authority to exclude the public and Press from a committee for 12 months. I think that goes much too far. The Government were right in yielding to the demands which were made in the other place and modifying that.
On the other hand, some of us feel that the Government's own solution of taking a decision at the beginning of every committee is too cumbersome. It is for that reason that I support those distinguished noble Lords, like my noble
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friend Lord Redcliffe-Maud, the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, and like the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, to-day in asking the Government whether they can accede to the request of local authority associations, county council associations, the municipal corporations and the rural and urban district associations to remove this clause from the Bill for the time being and have a look at the complex issues that it raises. There is no difference of opinion between Government and Opposition, or between the associations and the Government about the aim. If there is any argument or difference at all it is about technique. As the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, suggested, there will be an opportunity some time in the future, after consulting the local associations on this matter, of bringing in a clause which will be much more satisfactory than the Amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, and the rather cumbersome Amendment which we wrote into the Bill last time. I am delighted to know that the noble Lord, Lord Champion, and the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, propose to put back the date of the operation of this clause by an Amendment later on. I hope that when we come to that Amendment we shall support it. It will give us time to give more consideration to what is a very complex problem.
6.54 p.m.
LORD REDCLIFFE-MAUD: My Lords, may I say a word in support of the perfect speech that has just been made? Some of us are not happy about the state of the Bill as it stands. I would support the Amendment that is being proposed by the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, if that were the best that we could get; but I do not like that, either. I had hoped that the Government were going to be able to produce some rabbit out of the hat which would satisfy what my noble friend Lord Maybray-King has so rightly asked for, which is something which would express the wish of people on all sides and on no side here on these Cross-Benches.
It seems to me that we are up against an important and critical question here. Local government is at the cross-roads quite apart from the Bill that is before us. Local government is re-thinking how it can better do its job of being the only democratic complement to Parliament and of providing efficient services up and

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down the country in a way which will enable people to participate in addition to the way in which they participate in the work of central Government and, I hope, in European Government in the future. In order to do that, they are ready to go forward with new techniques which I will not bore the House by mentioning.
But since the noble Lord, Lord Fraser of Lonsdale, was a member of the L.C.C. there has developed a new kind of committee—and I think this was what the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, was referring to—called the Leader's Co-ordinating Committee, which has the advantage of being able to take advice from officials. It is not just a Party committee but is a part of the machinery of the Greater London Council. Other councils up and down the country (please God!) will follow that lead which has already been given by many other councils and is well outlined in various guidelines produced by the management committee on local government, the Bain Report, et cetera. That requires a new attitude on behalf of officials and senior officials to the leaders of the council on the elected side, and vice versa.
Just as it is unthinkable that we in this House, or those in another place, would go into Secret Session and exclude the public and the Press except at moments of great national crisis in the middle of a great war, it is equally unthinkable that the Cabinet, or a Cabinet Committee, would dream of asking the advice of officials at Cabinet meetings with the Press or public present. Yet in local government—although it is on a microscopic scale compared with the great doings in the Cabinet and Parliament—we combine the executive and the decision-taking process with the deliberative process. When the local authority meets in full council meeting, and when the education committee meets in full council meeting, it is a debating society, a forum, and it is perfectly right that the Press and the public should be there, and Parliament has said that they ought to be there.
But that is only part of what the local authority does. What we are up against here is the fact that we want local authorities to develop certain techniques, whether a policy committee consists of one Party or more than one Party. As Party politics develop—as they
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undoubtedly will, under the new scheme—there will be a need for senior officials to adapt their techniques to suit whoever is the political leader of the council. We want to encourage this and at the same time encourage greater participation, understanding and interest on the part of the public outside in what the local authority is doing. To do these things requires considerable thought. Your Lordships will agree with me, as an old hack in Whitehall, when I say that you cannot expect local senior officials to give confidential advice in the way senior officials fortunately have learned to do in Whitehall, except under the tradition of confidentiality, particularly as Party politics come into local government.
Therefore I hope more time can be given to thinking this problem out. Perhaps this Part of the Bill could be left out, as the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, suggested, and I must say that would certainly meet me completely; but if the Government cannot do that, perhaps they can consider some other way in which they can speed up talks with the local authority associations so that by April 1, 1974—and certainly not before it—we shall be able to move forward in an agreed way.
I should like to add this. I do not represent any local authority association or any interest that is concerned here. It would be a great mistake if people thought that the local authority associations were ganging up in this case against the Government or against the Press. They are doing nothing of the kind. The feeling in local government is unanimous that we have to find ways in which the public and our local governors can come into closer rapport.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I have not been so impressed as some with the fears of local government associations. This is a subject which lends itself to magnificent generalisations. From a cynical point of view, we can get round most regulations or sections of Acts of Parliament. What I am supporting is the theory, propounded so eloquently by the noble Lords, Lord Redcliffe-Maud and Lord Maybray-King, and by my noble friend Lord Brooke of Cumnor, that there ought to be consultation with the authorities. It is a matter of principle. I cannot think of any subject which is

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more suitable for discussion with the associations. After all, as Lord RedcliffeMaud pointed out, we are beginning a "new look" at local government, and surely they ought to be brought in on the manufacturing of machinery of government. This twelve-month suggestion of Lord Mansfield is going too far, but I am all for what he said about consultation.
VISCOUNT RIDLEY: My Lords, may I say a few words in support of the noble Earl's Amendment. First, I would commend the brevity with which he moved the Amendment—an example to the rest of the House. He did not repeat his Committee speech once, let alone three times. The Government promised when we debated this question in Committee that they would look at it again. I am bound to say I think they have looked at it through the wrong end of the telescope because it has gone further and further away. But never mind that. I would just add that support very much the suggestion which the noble Lords, Lord Redcliffe-Maud and Lord Brooke of Cumnor, have made that we want something better than this clause.
I must repeat that nobody in this House or in another place, or almost anywhere in local government, wants to see the Press excluded from meetings where they should rightly be present. I do not think that that can be said too often. It is most important that those of us who sit on local government should have the good will of the Press—and this again is something that cannot be said too often. We shall not obtain the good will of the Press if we are going to have to throw them out of these committees at short notice. For that reason I have grave disquiet about the Bill as it now stands. I hope that the mover will not press this Amendment to a Division because if he did so it might be thought in the country at large that we are against the admission of the Press to committee meetings, which is not the case. But if the Government will look at the matter through the right end of the telescope, I think the House will be satisfied.
7.3 p.m.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, I want to see more publicity given to the work of local councils, to the decisions
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at which they arrive, and to the considerations which have led them to those decisions. But I am not keen on the clause in its present form, and am even less keen on the Amendment moved by the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield. I feel, as other noble Lords have suggested, that there ought to be more discussions with the local authority associations in the hope that we might get some kind of compromise which would lead us farther than we are at present in the direction of admitting the Press to committee meetings but nevertheless avoiding the mandatory authority that is included in the Bill.
It is a fact that more and more councils are admitting the Press to more and more of their committees. But the choice as to which committee they admit the Press remains with them; it is not imposed upon them by Whitehall or by Act of Parliament. So I believe that the Government would be doing a greater service if they did their best to encourage councils to admit the Press to as many committees as possible—not to all committees—rather than to impose this mandatory requirement. It would be much better if it were done voluntarily. When all is said and done, the background to all our discussions on local government, as on other matters, is that we should give more power to the local councils. Here we are seeking to restrict their powers by Act of Parliament.
I am something of a mongrel so far as this particular clause is concerned: I have had a foot in both camps, local government and newspapers. I suppose that Wetherby's Stud Book would describe me as "By ex-county council chairman out of local weekly newspaper reporter". That was fifty years ago; things have probably changed since then. But I have noticed that most local papers do not give, as much coverage to the doings of the local council as their readers could expect them to do. If there were more inclination on the part of papers to give adequate coverage to local government affairs, I should feel more inclined to be an enthusiastic supporter of this particular clause in the Government's Bill. Of course, there are some exceptions. But one finds that the only occasion when a local newspaper gives a big story to the local council is when there is an open row in the council chamber.

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If the Bill goes through in its present form I expect there will be some initial enthusiasm on the part of editors and they will start sending their reporters to committee meetings. I think those reporters will soon become bored, and I fear that there are many newspapers which will not be able to afford the employment of a trained local government reporter. All the same, we must look at the merits of this proposal. There are several drawbacks both in the Amendment and in the clause. One of the virtues about the closed committee system is that members are able to put aside all their prejudices and discuss matters in a businesslike manner. On the other hand, if the Press were present there would be a lot of playing to the gallery by Party politicians—perhaps on that side, perhaps on this side, perhaps on both sides. Another of the virtues of the closed committee is that members can listen to the professional advice of their expert advisers. They can question these expert advisers, and the advisers are able to make their views known impartially. I feel that if the Press were present the nature of the questions that would be put to them, and the nature of the answers they might have to give, could tend to draw them into the arena of Party politics; and that would be bad. I feel that if the Press were always present, then these officials would be inhibited from giving the frank advice they invariably give to us at the present time, and this might lead to many wrong decisions being taken by the committee.
I know, of course, that there is provision for a resolution to be moved at any committee meeting stating that the Press shall be excluded from the consideration of certain matters. That is obviously necessary. We in our committees discuss the possible acquisition of land—and we know how land is going up overnight from £500 an acre to £25,000 an acre if somebody puts a tick by a little sheet of paper marked" planning permission". We know that the route of a projected road can cause a great increase in land values. We know that the discussion of official salaries, and probably discussion of the conduct of certain officials, is something that ought not to be done in public. But when you come to that stage of a committee meeting where you feel that it is right to move the resolution excluding the Press
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from the remainder of the meeting, what is the atmosphere that is created? Some members might say, "Ah! they've got something to hide", and then, with the Press still present, make speeches suggesting that the other side is not perhaps acting as honourably as it should. That would all be in public. Then again, if the resolution were carried and the Press were excluded—my mind goes back fifty years to the days when I was a local newspaper reporter—that would be the cue to me to start lobbying the members concerned in the local bar and getting a really good story—probably a one-sided story and one not giving both versions of the facts.
There are, naturally, some arguments on the other side. If a committee—and this is the point the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, mentioned—met in the first week of the month, and a report of its activities appeared in the paper, this would enable local reaction and local criticism to make itself felt by the time the council meeting was held at the end of the month. That would be good: there is no doubt about it. Then, there are committees of councils which have delegated powers and do not remit their decisions to the councils for approval later on. It is right that their activities also should be available to the Press. But I have a feeling that if the Press is to be in on all these discussions, where we sometimes forget our Party politics in committee rooms and act, if one might say so cynically, as sensible men and women, then more and more of the business of council committees will be conducted in sub-committees or in the Party caucus, and if your Lordships think that is in the interests of the public getting additional information I feel that you are sadly mistaken.
Admitting the Press to these committee meetings is not the only way of informing the public. After committee meetings Press conferences can be held with the chairman and, if you like, the leader of the opposition and the chief official present. I know from my own knowledge that those are very successful indeed and public statements can be issued a few days after the meeting for general circulation to the Press.
I was delighted to hear the noble Lord. Lord Redcliffe-Maud, speak because in

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his report on the Management of Local Government he said:
"There is no substitute for good Press relations."
He also said:
"We recommend that local authorities admit the Press to meetings of committees, but it should remain within the local authorities' discretion to decide whether or not to admit the Press."
I think that is the right attitude. We want to see more and more committees open to the Press, but we do not want the mandatory authority.
Personally I should like to see more public relations officers employed by local authorities. The number is increasing but the majority of councils are still without one. If there is an overwhelming feeling in the House that the clause should stand as it is, although I do not like it, I would not be prepared to fight to the last ditch against it. I feel that the newspapers would soon become bored with the task of sending reporters to every committee meeting. I feel that there would be a crop of libels or slanders. I certainly feel that there would be a great deal more land speculation as a result of secrets about potential land purchases leaking out from the committees. I feel that this whole question demands further consideration on the part of local authorities and their associations. But if it is the general view of the committee that the Press should be admitted I would not agree with the Amendment. I look upon that as a loophole which is being used to try to defy the Act and I feel it would be better, if we are to have any exceptions, for a resolution to be moved at every meeting of every committee where it is decided that it is desirable to exclude the Press.
The Press is one thing but the public is another, and the proposal before us is that we admit not only the Press but the public as well. They are two different things. The Press representatives—let me say this very shyly—are fairly respectable, well-behaved people. They do not go to meetings in order to create disorder. But there are some gangs—and we can see this in the newspapers week by week—which pack the public galleries at open council meetings with one object only in mind, to reduce the whole proceedings to a shambles. If that kind of thing hap-
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pened at committee meetings the progress of our council committee work would be seriously impeded.
Then there is the question of geometry. Most of our council committee rooms are not big enough to accommodate members of the public. The answer to that might be, "Well, hold your committee meetings in the council chamber". But it so happens that two or three committee meetings often take place at the same time on the same day, so that that would not be possible. Then there is the psychological disadvantage of holding committee meetings in the council chamber. In the council chamber we would tend to have one Party on one side and one Party on another, whereas in a committee room we all sit round the table, mix with one another and try to discuss the business before us on its merits.
It is quite easy to imagine the kind of people that we should get crowding into our committee meetings. We should get tenants' associations, and your Lordships know what they have done at council meetings in some of the London boroughs! We might also get Women's Lib, and your Lordships know what Women's Lib can do when they want to make a public demonstration! We should have them divesting themselves of their invisible means of support; we should have them screaming as we have had them screaming at other public demonstrations. All this would act against the proper, efficient conduct of the business of the committee. I feel that there are some committees to which we might quite easily admit the Press for the whole of the meeting; there are some committees where I would definitely say "No", and I would include those committees dealing with finance and with land acquisition. I would let the council decide to which of their committees they would admit the Press. But so far as admitting the public to these meetings is concerned. I am dead against that. I still feel that it might be possible to reach a sensible and satisfactory compromise if the Government would once again confer with the local authorities associations.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: My Lords, I intervene briefly at this moment because I am particularly interested in this debate. I piloted the Public Bodies (Admission to Meetings) Act

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through this House in 1960. It was a Private Member's Bill which was started in another place by Mrs. Thatcher and I was asked to handle it in your Lordships' House. Before that time access to council meetings was very much restricted. I do not want to see anything in this Bill which would interfere in any way with the Public Bodies (Admission to Meetings) Act of 1960 because that Act has worked extremely well. I have sat on a county council now for many years—I think since 1946. The main meetings are open to the Press, and even to the public, although the public do not attend at all. They could attend if they wanted to. But when it comes to meetings at which we do not want the Press—and there are just one or two—those committees have to report to the main council and therefore the Press, who are at the main council meetings, always hear what has been done, let us say, at the chairmen's committee which meets in private, or in some other committee which it has been agreed should meet in private. The findings of those committees often take place without the public being present, but that does not contravene the Act in any way because the Press and the public receive the reports which are given in public to the council meetings.
I support the Government in this. There may be county councils where great difficulties might occur, hut I think those difficulties are exaggerated. There is a perfectly simple, straightforward method of dealing with this which would not lead to any major difficulties and I hope very much that we shall not see any restrictions, or any actions being taken in this Bill which will interfere with the Act of 1960 which, in my view, still works very well. As the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, has said it is perfectly possible to hold meetings in private, with the consent of the council. In my experience that can be done without alienating the Press in any way at all.
7.9 p.m.
VISCOUNT AMORY: My Lords, I think we all feel grateful to my noble friend Lord Mansfield for moving this Amendment, which gives us an opportunity to discuss this important matter further. It is a bad thing to repeat the speech that one has made at Committee stage, and it is quite unnecessary for me
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to do so this evening because I can say straight away that I agree with what has been said by my noble friend Lord Brooke of Cumnor, by the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King and by the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, and I have really nothing to add to those remarks. Every time I hear the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, speak I am increasingly amazed at the things he knows about. It is quite fantastic! I thought I knew all the things that the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, knew about—I mean, of course, that I thought I knew which ones he knew about—but then the other day is became quite clear that the name of the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, is greatly honoured among those who know about refuse disposal. Then we learned just now that he was a newspaper correspondent, and earlier this evening we learned that he was a company sergeant-major. As one who never got beyond company quartermaster sergeant, may I express my admiration? I found my particular ambitions fulfilled then that being the lowest rank at which one did not have to carry a rifle about. There is clearly no difference between us over our aim in this matter. It is just a question of finding the best way of providing opportunities to enable the public to be informed and kept in touch with local government arrangements. Many of us feel that the method which the Government are proposing will prove cumbersome and may be counter-productive to the end that we all have in mind.
I am sure that the Minister will deal with the point which the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, raised. I had the impression that councils could delegate this responsibility to committees so that they could decide this matter at the beginning of each meeting. I had thought that a cumbersome arrangement and I hope that the Government will still find a way of consulting with the local authority bodies, which are deeply interested in this subject, to find the best way of achieving the end that we all have in mind. I should have thought that to enable that to be done it would, from the Government's point of view, be a modest price to pay to withdraw the clause for the time being and reintroduce it with the right answer; namely, an answer which will carry with it the support and confidence of all the local authority bodies.

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I believe that a compromise is attainable. The Government could then bring the clause forward when the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, which it is believed will come before Parliament not later than next year, is introduced. I hope the Government will give consideration to that solution to this question, a solution which I think would satisfy the views of almost all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate.
7.23 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, it is now up to me to produce a rabbit. We have considered this matter very carefully since the last stage, looking at it through both ends of the telescope, at the same time examining a further joint memorandum from the four local authority associations urging that in view of the difficulties to which, in their view, this clause would give rise it should be withdrawn to enable further consultations to take place. As we have further explained to the associations, the Government are not persuaded, any more than my noble friend Lady Elliot of Harwood is persuaded, that the clause will give rise to such difficulties as to warrant our withdrawal of it. We remain convinced that the time is right for further progress in the direction of more open local government.
Experience since the passage of the 1960 Act, which my noble friend, as she reminded us, dealt with in this House, shows that the forebodings of the opponents of that measure did not materialise and that many authorities have been able to go further and to open most, and in some cases all, of their committees to the Press and public without undue difficulty. However, there are still far too many authorities which, as the noble Lord, Lord Champion said, persist in taking important policy decisions behind closed doors. It was argued at an earlier stage, and recently by the noble Lord, Lord Leather-land, that chief officers will be inhibited from giving positive advice at open meetings. I feel that that is a low assessment of the calibre of our chief local government officers. Certainly it will require readjustment by those few who have become for far too long accustomed to decision-taking in privacy behind closed doors. The experience of those who have opened their meetings shows that initial
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misgivings can be overcome. Where it is necessary for members to receive truly confidential advice from their officers, the 1960 Act specifically provides for it.
It has also been argued that to require open committee meetings will tend to encourage closed discussion in Party meetings from which officers are excluded, and I confess that no legislation can force a reluctant authority to engage in public discussion of major policy issues if it is really determined to avoid doing so. What we are proposing here, and what we shall be creating, is a presumption of openness which the noble Lord, Lord Champion, was advocating, and with which we agree, and against which a local authority will have to be judged by its own electorate. We recognise that legislation can do little more than help to create such a climate of opinion. That is why we are not seeking to legislate in relation to sub-committees or working groups of every kind.
I come to the specific matter of the Amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Mansfield. The point has been made that it could be frustrating for all concerned if, having publicly advertised a committee meeting, the committee were to resolve as its first item of business to exclude the public and Press; and it was with this thought in mind that we originally included subsections (3) and (4) which the noble Lord is seeking to restore. These subsections would, if carried into the Bill, enable a council to close a particular committee to the public for periods of up to 12 months at a time if it was clear that much the greater part of its business was likely to justify closure by individual resolutions within the terms of the 1960 Act. On more mature reflection, we believe that this would be wrong and would make it too easy for those who do not like open decision-making to seek to get round the intention of this clause.
Moreover, I think that the problem I have been describing is more apparent than real. Few committee meetings will be concerned solely with confidential business, and this will be especially true with the larger authorities that we are creating, and the more streamlined committee structures which we trust they will adopt and to which the noble Lord, Lord Redcliffe-Maud, has given so much atten-

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tion, and has drawn to our attention in previous debates on this point. It is to be hoped that committee members will concentrate more on policy issues which should be publicly aired and less on detailed day-to-day executive decisions which should be delegated to officers, or at least to sub-committees. As I have said, sub-committees are not covered by this clause.
It is common practice where meetings are already open to the public for the agenda to be divided into two parts, the confidential items being taken at the end when the public and Press have been asked to leave, and I am not aware that this creates any real difficulty. In those few cases where it may be found necessary to close the whole of a committee meeting it should be possible to indicate in the public notice and on the agenda, the strong possibility of this happening, though in answer to my noble friend Lord Brooke I would say that it can be only on the authority of the committee itself at the time that the resolution is moved and the public and Press are actually excluded. I confirm what the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, was intimating: that this is a matter which can be delegated. These are all matters which can be included within the code of practice which we understand the local authority associations are preparing.
It must not be forgotten—and the noble Lord, Lord Redcliffe-Maud, has not let us forget—that, as he said and as he pointed out in his Report on the Management of Local Government, this question of admission to meetings is only one aspect and is not necessarily the most important aspect of local authorities' public relations.—The noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, also made this point. I submit that the central principle is that public business which involves the spending of public money and the shaping of ratepayers' lives should be conducted in such a fashion that the public know what is going on. This means that the authority should publicise its progress and the results it achieves, keep the public informed of its decisions and the reasons for taking them, seek to educate public opinion in the problems which it faces, explain to the public what it is trying to do and the means it proposes to adopt and try to obtain the public's reactions to its efforts.
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Thus, the admission of the Press to formal committees even if it is coupled, as it ought to be coupled, with the circulation in good time of an agenda and supporting documents, is by no means the whole of good public relations or good Press relations. A great deal more needs to be done by formal and informal Press meetings in which the agenda and the transactions of committees are explained and reporters (especially young reporters like young Leatherland) are helped with the procedures and are encouraged to disentangle the important from the unimportant. That helps too to ensure good working facilities for the Press; by, for example, providing them with comfort-able seats in the council chambers and access to telephones.
All these are things which I should expect to be covered in the code of practice, as well as guidance on the various practical matters that arise from the procedures laid down in the 1960 Act, such as my noble friend Lord Brooke of Cumnor instanced. It is clear that it would help the House in coming to their decision—and I hope it will help my noble friend Lord Mansfield to decide not to press his Amendment upon us—if I can say now, as I do—and I think this will show that at least three minds have been thinking alike—that I am prepared, when it comes to deal with the commencement provisions to-morrow, to accept an Amendment either in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cum-nor, or in the name of the noble Lord. Lord Champion—but, I should hope, detached from Amendments that would affect other matters which I might not be able to accept—which would have the effect of deferring the operative date of Clause 99 for all authorities until April 1, 1974.
I appreciate the hesitation that many local authorities have about this clause although, as I say, I do not believe that their worries are well founded. An extension of a year in the operation of the statutory provisions would not put the principle at stake in jeopardy. Meanwhile. I hope that the existing trend towards more open local government will continue at an increased tempo. An extra year would undoubtedly give local authorities more time to prepare for the requirements of this clause (this is a time when they are already very much

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stretched), to make the necessary physical and administrative arrangements for admitting the public and Press to committee meetings. But, much more important, it would enable us to pursue the discussions with the local authority associations about the practical problems concerning the code of practice and to resolve any real difficulties that may emerge before these statutory requirements take effect. And, most important of all, it would give the newly elected authorities, the existing authorities in Greater London, the associations of all of them, ourselves and the bodies representative of the Press, a further chance and a longer time to confer together and to make progress in the wider fields of Press relations and public relations; and these things, after all, are far more important and wide-ranging than the relatively limited matter to which this particular clause and this particular Amendment refers. I hope that what I have said will enable my noble friend Lord Mansfield to withdraw this Amendment and my noble friend Lord Brooke of Cumnor, or the noble Lord, Lord Champion, to accept the Amendment for us to consider to-morrow to delay the commencement of this clause.
VISCOUNT AMORY:My Lords, would it be in order for me to ask my noble friend one question arising out of what he has said where he envisages that there will be consultations continuing with the local authority bodies? Suppose this clause stands in the Bill and suppose that those consultations were to produce a method which would be less cumbersome than what he has proposed now, would it he possible then for an Amendment to be made to the method in some subsequent Bill that might be introduced possibly before the date of April 1, 1974?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Amory will know how difficult it is for me to give firm assurances about future legislation, but the prospects after the passage of this Bill through Parliament of yet further legislation on local government reform, bearing in mind that we are already committed to legislation on local government finance, are not good enough for me to give anything like a firm assurance. Our own belief, as I say, is that we have provided here a framework in which these
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further detailed provisions, which are undoubtedly needed, can be developed and worked out.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, may I put a question to my noble friend Lord Sandford? Would he agree that the year from April, 1973, to April, 1974, will be a very crucial one in the case of the new authorities and that there is a danger that some secretive new authorities may seek to exclude the Press and public during that period and thus to present the community at large with certain cut and dried decisions which will not have been exposed to proper scrutiny?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, what I have already said about the difficulty—in fact the impossibility—of securing that an authority that is determined to take its policy decisions behind closed doors cannot find some way of getting round the legislation. That cannot be done. But we are seeking to provide here a stronger presumption towards open local government than there has been hitherto.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, with your Lordships' leave perhaps I might reply briefly to what has been said. I am most grateful to all those noble Lords who have spoken in this debate this evening. If ever a Government were informed of the anxieties which have arisen all round this chamber, such has happened to-night. In particular I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Redcliffe-Maud, for coming to my aid over the Leader's Co-ordinating Committee of the Greater London Council. One never wishes to make a had point in a debate, either legal or Parliamentary, still less does one like to be accused of one—as it happens wrongly, on this occasion—and I am therefore very grateful to him.
When it comes to "rabbits", I never thought that my noble friend Lord Sandford would produce one on this occasion and indeed I am rather glad that he has not done so. There has been a great deal of fairly hasty legislation in this Bill, but rabbits have a habit of getting myxomatosis and I would prefer an animal of an entirely different character and breed to emerge when all the parties have had time to consider and consult with each other. I venture to think that this debate has not been a waste of

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time. Much good may come of it in the end, but in the meantime, with your Lordships' leave, I should like to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 100 [Arrangements for discharge of functions by local authorities]:
7.39 p.m
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK THE EARL OF CRANBROOK moved Amendment No 61:
Page 68, line 28, at end insert the following new subsection—
(" ( ) or by two or more other local authorities jointly.")
The noble Earl said: My Lords, when I moved an exactly similar Amendment on the Commitee stage the noble Lord said that he thought that what I had in mind—and which I am quite certain he wishes as much I do—was already provided for in the Bill. It all depends on whether the functions which the principal asks the agent to perform on its behalf become the functions of the agent. This is a legal matter on which I am not competent to judge, and if the noble Lord can assure me that what I have in mind is legal and can be done—because the more we investigate the future of local government the more it becomes obvious that we shall often need to have two or more local authorities acting together as agents—then I shall be perfectly happy.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, there is no dispute as to the validity of the point made by my noble friend Lord Cranbrook during the Committee stage that it may be more economic and effective if in some cases district councils act jointly in the discharge of agency arrangements made with the county council, and the Bill already permits this to be done. Under Clause 101, a county council could make arrangements with one or more district councils in their area and the agreements reached between the county council on the one hand and each district council on the other could involve a requirement for co-operation between the district councils. I do not know whether my noble friend Lord Cranbrook feels that this is a cumbersome way of approaching the matter, but in practice I do not think there would be any difficulty, in that the county council would need to discuss the arrangements with each of the district councils concerned.
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Whether the final outcome was an agreement between the county council and a group of district councils or whether there were separate agreements between the county council and each district council covering the same matters would be of no practical significance so far as the joint arrangements between the district councils were concerned. Under Clause 101(1) the district councils acting jointly could, if they chose, establish a joint committee for the purpose of the discharge of the function which was the subject of the agency arrangements. So in short we agree that the arrangements envisaged by the noble Earl could well be desirable in many circumstances, but we remain of the view that the Bill already permits these objectives to be achieved without further amendment. I hope that what I have said satisfies the noble Earl that his point can be met.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK:My Lords, I must confess that I find it so complicated that I am scarcely satisfied. I should have thought that my nice, tidy way of doing it was infinitely better. It certainly makes explicit what to my mind is only implicit in the Bill. I will not, of course, press this Amendment, but I would ask the noble Lord to think once more whether it would not be a little more tidy to make it abundantly clear by making some such Amendment as I have put down. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
7.43 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS moved Amendment No. 64:
After Clause 105 insert the following new clause:
Application of foregoing provisions to police authorities
" .—(1) Subject to the following provisions of this section—

(a) sections 100 to 102 and 105 above shall apply to a police authority other than the Secretary of State as they apply to a local authority;

(b) sections 103 and 104 above shall apply both to a police authority and a committee of any such authority or authorities as they apply to a committee of a local authority or authorities;

and in their application to the Common Council as police authority those sections shall have effect subject to those provisions.
(2) A police authority may not arrange for the discharge of their functions by another

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police authority, and section 100(1)(b) and (3) above shall not apply to a police authority.
(3) The officers who may discharge the functions of a police authority in pursuance of arrangements under section 100(1), (2) or (5) above shall include the chief officer of police, his deputy while performing his duties and any civilian officer employed for the purposes of the police authority or one of the police authorities.
(4) A police authority may not arrange under section 100 above for the discharge of their functions by a committee or officer as respects part only of their area.
(5) Section 100(10) above shall not apply to a police authority.
(6) Any committee appointed under section 101 above for discharging the functions of one or more police authorities (including any subcommittee) shall consist only of members of the appointing authority or authorities and section 101(3) above shall not apply to committees of police authorities.
(7) Section 102 above, in its application to a joint committee of police authorities, shall have effect as if for paragraphs (a) and (b) there were substituted the words "by the Secretary of State".
(8) A person shall not be disqualified by virtue of section 103 above for being a member of a police authority or the committee (or any sub-committee) of any such authority or authorities by virtue of his holding any office or employment, except employment for the purposes of the police authority or one of the police authorities.
(9) Section 105 above shall not authorise any county council to make standing orders with respect to the quorum, proceedings or place of meeting of a police authority.
(10) For the purposes of this section the following persons shall be treated as employed for the purposes of a police authority, that is to say—

(a) any person employed under section 10 of the Police Act 1964 for police purposes of the police authority's area; and also

(b) in the case of a combined police authority, any person whose services are made available for the use of that authority in pursuance of section 4(5) of that Act."

The noble Viscount said: My Lords, we want so far as is appropriate to apply the powers of delegation which local authorities will have in Clauses 100 to 105 to police authorities, including combined police authorities, and that is what this new clause does. At the present moment, under the existing legislation a few combined police authorities—that is, where there is more than one county involved—do have limited powers of delegation, but not a single county police authority; and the local authority associations, from the consultations we have had with them, support the idea of giving this power of delegation in the
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clause. We have had to adapt the provisions slightly, because not quite all the provisions in the existing six clauses are suitable.
I hope that the new clause is largely self-explanatory, but I ought to say a word or two about it. In the first subsection we are applying the provisions I have mentioned; we are allowing the setting up of committees or joint committees, and the delegation to officers, in certain circumstances, of some of the duties. We then go on to place some limitations on the powers of delegation, because, for instance, we could not allow a police authority to delegate all its functions to another police authority completely; we would have to ensure that each police authority does what it is required to do under the Police Act; that is, to provide an adequate and efficient police force for its area. So that is not a responsibility that can be delegated to the police authority of another area. In fact if this sort of thing is in the minds of those concerned it would be better to go for an amalgamation of police forces, which my right honourable friend can still sanction, despite this Bill, under the Police Act.
Then we must also take account of the possibility that a local police authority might want to set up a committee to deal with part only of its area. I think this would be undesirable, and subsection (4) rules that out. I do not think, in the light of the debates we have had on the question of the police, that the House would wish to have police areas subdivided again, whether or not there have been good arguments in the past about that sort of thing. Then there are in subsection (6) some statutory functions which already exist under the Police Act, including the appointment of the chief constable and the setting of the establishment of the force; the number of officers concerned—both of which are subject to my right honourable friend's approval—the provision of equipment, and certain disciplinary functions, which we think should be discharged only by members of the authority itself. The point is that there may be other matters, such as, for instance, advisory committees, where the police authorities may wish to co-opt members who are not members of the police authority in their own right. But for the essential functions we think it

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should be only members of the authority who take the decisions.
There is one point in subsection (8), which is fairly complicated, which changes the situation about disqualification of magistrates. The effect of it is that a magistrate will only be disqualified for membership of any police authority under Part V of the Bill if he is employed for the purpose of that police authority, or, in the case of a joint committee or two or more police authorities, if he is employed for the purpose of one of those authorities—and "employed" is defined in subsection (10). So there have had to be one or two adaptations of the general provisions of the Bill, but in general we believe that it will increase the flexibility, and indeed the efficiency of the police and those in charge of them, if we can incorporate these amendments and give them the power to delegate and operate committees in the sort of way I have suggested, but subject to those limitations. I hope that that is a satisfactory explanation. If any noble Lord wants anything further, I will endeavour to assist. Meanwhile, I beg to move.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, we are very grateful to the noble Viscount for having explained so carefully this new clause. It is a new clause of considerable size. He has given it something of a Second Reading, although it is a very late stage in the Bill for that to happen. It is right that all these points should be collected in this single clause, but I notice that he has now firmly closed, under subsection (4), something which the noble Lord, Lord Saint Oswald, and I were trying to achieve, by ensuring retention of the existing police authorities. That was something which we tried in Committee, but we failed and decided not to come back to it. When I read this new clause I thought that the noble Lord had firmly shut the door in my face and I was not trying to put my face in any more. It seems to me to be a wholly good clause and for my part I welcome it.
Clause 108 [Transitional arrangements for discharge of functions]:
7.50 p.m.
VISCOUNT GAGE VISCOUNT GAGE moved Amendment No. 64A:
Page 74, line 22, at end insert—
(" ( ) No application submitted under subsections (1) or (2) of this section after 31st December 1973 shall be considered by the Minister.")
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, when I moved an Amendment dealing with this subject in Committee I argued that it would be quite intolerable if, right up to the last moment, new points were being raised and the Minister would possibly be giving directions which would have the effect of making the joint committees, who are so hard worked in various ways, start all over again. My noble friend Lord Aberdare sympathised with that point. For this I was very grateful. He did, however, argue in favour of flexibility. I have tried to meet that point in this Amendment. I am suggesting that the Minister should have all the flexibility he needs, but that he should not consider any new proposition after December 31, 1973. I suggest that it is reasonable for roe to say that if a local authority is suffering under a great sense of grievance they will realise that before December 31, 1973.
I also think that it would be wrong to allow this extended period for submitting complaints. I believe that it would have certain disadvantages. The sort of thing that might happen is that one authority might say to another, "If you don't meet us on this point we will make ourselves a great nuisance to you on other points right up to the last". I do not think that that would be a very satisfactory thing to have happen. I can see no real reason why any local authority should want to submit their grievances after this period. I believe that the Minister would be very glad to have the authority of Parliament for refusing to consider anything after that date. They might, if you agree, make the date earlier. That would not matter. However, I think that anything after that date would be really putting the joint committees to too great a strain. That is all I have to say. I beg to move.
VISCOUNT RIDLEY: My Lords, may I add a word in support of my noble

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friend Lord Gage. I think that he and I have watered down our Amendment quite considerably since the Committee stage, and I hope that we have compromised sufficiently for the Government to accept this proposal. I may be wrong, but as I read the Bill, there is a provision that the Minister cannot give a decision on this agency agreement after March 31, 1974. That is set out in subsection (4). But one could envisage the situation, if our Amendment was not accepted, where a disgruntled local authority could put in an application on March 29, 1974; the Minister, with the best will in the world, might not be able to meet his obligations and the whole thing could be thrown into the melting pot.
I hope that the Government will be able to give us this relatively minor point. It may seem such a small point that it is not worth wasting your Lordships' time further on it, but I did say in Committee, and my view has been in no way diminished by my experience since, that there is a grave feeling of disquiet over the whole question of this agency agreement, because there is potential uncertainty hanging over all the planning that is going on at the moment. We do not know to what extent this uncertainty will be realised, because the new councils who will create such uncertainty will not come into being for a few months yet. But the feeling, I emphasise again, that you cannot get ahead with planning establishments is particularly felt among the staffs of the existing local authorities, whose future is very much at stake. They do not know whether they will be working for one type or another type. This feeling is very real, and anything we can do to lessen the period of uncertainty and help the new authorities in the formidable task—a more formidable task than I think the Government realise—which lies ahead of them would be welcomed.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: My Lords, I would say only one word in support of my two noble friends who are moving this Amendment, because it happens that I spent two days last week assisting at the birth of these joint committees provided by the Bill. That experience led me to think very clearly that any major points of dispute between one level and another level of the local authorities were
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bound to come out early. If they did not come out early they would very likely be frivolous or malicious. If a major point of dispute comes out at the proper time, as I think it will if counties get on with the organisation of the committees at the right time, there will be ample time to settle everything worth taking to the Minister in the time mentioned by my noble friend in his Amendment.
7.55 p.m.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I would assure my noble friend Lord Gage, and my other noble friends Lord Ridley and Lord Bridgeman, that we still have the utmost sympathy with the spirit that lies behind this Amendment, but we still hope to attain the same object, but with even greater flexibility than they would allow us, by doing by administrative means what they desire. We entirely agree that decisions on agency arrangements must be reached well in advance of April, 1974, and my noble friends who have spoken have made it perfectly clear why this is so:it is only on the method that we differ.
The Secretary of State for the Environment made clear in another place that a ministerial decision should be sought only as a last resort:preferably the new local authorities should reach agreement between themselves, and as early as possible. To assist this process there would be consultations between the Departments concerned and the local authority associations, leading up to the issue of a circular containing guidance on the circumstances in which agency arrangements might be appropriate. These consultations will start in the very near future, and it is our aim to send an initial consultation paper to the associations by about the end of this month. The consultations will then be urgently pursued with a view to drawing up the general circular of guidance by about the end of this year, or very early in 1973. These discussions, and the circular, will certainly have to cover the matter of the timetable for reaching agreement between authorities, and also the date by which any appeals should be lodged with Ministers.
Appeals will certainly need to be lodged in good time so that decisions are given well in advance of April, 1974, but for various reasons we do not think it would be appropriate to write a specific

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date into the Bill. First of all, as I have said, we shall be dealing in the circular with the timetable; secondly, we think it right that this should be discussed with the local authority associations; thirdly, in the light of those discussions, we may want to propose an earlier date than December 31, 1973, for some, or even most, purposes. We feel that it would be wrong to introduce an element of statutory rigidity and prevent any application to Ministers after that date. We entirely agree with the purpose of the Amendment, but in general we believe that with consultation, guidance, and with a date, or dates, given through a circular, we shall get the best of all worlds:we shall get our flexibility, and we shall not put ourselves in the position of having to make any last-minute decisions, because we fix a firm (late by which appeals have to be in. I hope that my noble friends will be satisfied with that explanation.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I must confess that I was not as persuaded by my noble friend as I usually am. He did not give a very definite undertaking on Committee, and that is what made some of my noble friends anxious. He has gone a little way to-day. He has not mentioned dates, and I could not help being tempted to compare the treatment of Clause 99, where the Government put something into the Bill and had consultations after, whereas here we have to wait for the consultations before anything is put into the Bill or anything concrete is produced. At this hour, on a point of this sort, I should not think of pressing the Amendment, but I should like to have it negatived.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 114 [Members of local authorities not to be appointed as officers]:
LORD CHAMPION LORD CHAMPION moved Amendment No. 65:
Page 77, line 32, at beginning insert ("(1)").
The noble Lord said:My Lords, the principle of the clause that I am seeking to amend is one which I strongly support. The clause is designed to ensure that a member of a local authority is not able to use his membership of that authority to prepare, by his contacts with fellow councillors and with the officers of the council, a place for himself on ceasing to
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be a member by resignation or by other cause. That I regard as important. The 12-month bar is some considerable safeguard against the sort of thing that we seek to prevent happening in our public institutions.
The Amendment I am proposing is admittedly designed to meet the sort of exceptional case that inevitably crops up from time to time. I can best illustrate what I have in mind by using an example which has been brought to my notice. It is of an ex-councillor who, upon losing her council seat, was employed by the council in a position which enabled her to render a service to people who sadly needed the sort of care and attention she was qualified to give them. In May of this year, this lady lost her council seat and shortly afterwards became a part-time assistant to a district nursing sister, being employed for some four hours a day. Under the general supervision of the district nurse she looked after some 35 patients in an area where there is a large proportion of elderly people who clearly need the sort of attention she was able to give them. The sort of thing she was doing was bathing patients, applying small dressings, treating bed sores, testing for hypothermia, as well as tending one old lady whose lees had been amputated, another suffering from Parkinson's disease and another completely paralysed.
After working for a month in this capacity someone must have noticed or remembered that Section 122 of the 1933 Act would apply, even in a case such as this, and she was discharged. The lady has not been replaced by the authority and these elderly people are being treated by over-worked district nursing staff as best they can in the very limited time available to them. This is the sort of instance which makes the clause look silly. But in my opinion it would be quite undesirable to delete the clause from the Bill and thus throw local authority employment open to possible abuse, though I am hound to say that it seems to me equally undesirable to have a bar in the quite exceptional sort of case that I have cited.
The Amendment would give to the Secretary of State power to approve an appointment by a local authority of an ex-councillor if upon application to the

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Secretary of State he is completely satisfied that in no way would such an appointment offend against the strict code which it is right to seek to maintain. That safeguard would be adequate to prevent any sort of abase but would enable the Secretary of State to modify the application of the clause in exceptional cases. I am sure that most noble Lords who know anything at all about local authorities, who know anything about the treatment of the aged, who know anything about the difficulty of coping with this type of case and of getting people who are qualified to do it to volunteer for this work, will realise that the case I am putting has some merit and that there would be some justification perhaps for the sort of modification which I am here suggesting.
My Lords, do not think I can add much to what I have already said. I hope the Government will be prepared to look at this proposal—I know it is rather late in the Bill to introduce it. Indeed, I hope that the Government will be prepared to accept the Amendment which I have on the Order Paper. It does not open the door to abuse but it would enable the Secretary of State to meet the occasional exceptional case of the sort which I have endeavoured to bring to the notice of your Lordships' House. I beg to move.
THE EARL OF BALFOUR:My Lords, I should very much like the Government to consider this proposal. I think the case that the noble Lord, Lord Champion, has mentioned is one that is a problem to local authorities. I will give another typical example. The wife of a business man could very easily become a county councillor. If her husband died, she might be in the awkward position of having to supplement her own living. She might have nursing experience or possibly have been a teacher. It would be a pity if, having been forced to resign her seat, through having lost her husband, she could not then get employment. I have known of this sort of case and I feel that this waiting period of 12 months can create great hardship and I should like the Government seriously to consider this Amendment. I think the noble Lord, Lord Champion, has a very good point.
LORD BELSTEAD: My Lords, the enthusiasm of the House for the case which the noble Lord, Lord Champion,
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has put forward and to which my noble friend Lord Balfour has spoken should not allow us to forget that the noble Lord also said that he was in support of the principle of the clause, which goes back about a century. It reproduces the pattern of the 1933 Act which has been widely accepted in the local government world and it covers, of course, the cases, very exceptional perhaps, where an authority may have some reason to appoint an ex-member for a job and that appointment could be open to misconstruction.
The proposed Amendment as it has been put forward, despite what the noble Lord, Lord Champion, has said in support of the principle of the clause, would, in fact, weaken that basic principle, and I think it is fair to point out to the House that any kind of involvement of the Secretary of State in council appointments would run against the basic proposition contained in Part VII of this Bill and with which I am sure your Lordships are broadly in agreement:that local authorities should be free to manage their affairs, particularly appointments, so far as possible as they think fit.
Having said that, may I draw the attention of your Lordships to the actual effect of the noble Lord's Amendment as drafted? I think the proposed Amendment would provide no definition of the relevant policy of the local authority which the Secretary of State would be required to take into account, and it would not provide a definition of the public interest. I think this would get us into difficulties. Even if definitions were to be provided, it would not be at all easy for the Secretary of State to satisfy himself as to the council's policy or the public interest in respect of a particular appointment. In fact, if he came down as disagreeing with the council's policy we should have the unfortunate situation of controversy between local government and the Secretary of State. I apologise to the House because the noble Lord has indeed put a very good case forward. He has been supported by my noble friend Lord Balfour and I have seemed to be somewhat cavalier in putting forward the objections to what the noble Lord has said.
I know that this is a late stage of the Bill and my right honourable friend's

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Department has a great deal of work to do, but I should like to draw the attention of the Department of the Environment to what the noble Lord, Lord Champion, has said, because he has certainly made a strong case. But in saying that, may I draw the attention of the House to one other point? As the noble Lord very well knows, this is not a complete bar on an elected member becoming an employee of a local authority; there is one year of delay. It may be that after my right honourable friend's Department has looked very carefully at what the noble Lord has said, they may find that they cannot get over it. But even though we are at a late stage of the Bill, I assure the noble Lord that if he will allow me to do so and will not press the Amendment to a Division I will see that this is carried to my right honourable friend's Department and looked at carefully before the final stage of the Bill.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I would never accuse the noble Lord of treating anything cavalierly. He always gives the sort of attention we expect and welcome from him to anything that has been said in this House. It would be wrong of me to go over the arguments that I adduced at the outset. All I can do at this stage is to thank him most sincerely for what he has said, and for the promise that he has given that he will ask the Department to look at this matter despite the fact that the hour is late. I sincerely hope that something will emerge from that, but even if it does not I shall always be grateful to him for what he has promised to do in this connection. My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
8.12 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 67:
After Clause 133 insert the following new clause:
Contributions towards expenditure on con current functions.
" . Two or more local authorities may make arrangements for defraying any expenditure incurred by one of them in exercising any functions exercisable by both or all of them."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this new clause fills a gap in the provisions of the Bill to which my noble friend Lord Brooke of Cumnor drew attention
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at Committee stage at column 819 of Hansard of September 18. It enables different authorities to make arrangements about the defraying of expenditure when they are collectively engaged in joint or agency arrangements. The Government's new clause reflects one of the two points which my noble friend Lord Brooke made. There is no doubt that the enabling power which he urged upon us will be a valuable addition to the powers of local authorities. My noble friend also asked that it should be a requirement for county and district councils to consult each other before undertaking any expenditure on functions which either could exercise, but he made no qualification about this. That is really the reason why we have not been able to accept that part of what he urged upon us, so our new clause makes no reference to it. It does not include a statutory requirement to consult, for the very good reason that, to a certain degree, local authorities exercise concurrent powers for a very large number of small every-day services. They are allowed concurrent powers for this, and a requirement to consult in detail would be undesirable.
On the other hand, restricting the requirement to consult to certain categories of proposals, general policies, programmes of such-and-such a size or programmes up to such-and-such a financial limit would greatly reduce the flexibility which is required in any consultation procedure. So that, on balance, we have concluded that a reference to consultations in the new clause is undesirable. The clause as now drafted pre-supposes that there will be consultation between responsible authorities, and will encourage local authorities to consider whether or not to consult other authorities before using their concurrent powers. It will also leave them free to exercise their judgment on how necessary that is. But the flexibility introduced by the other aspects of my noble friend's suggestion is something which we are glad to adopt. My Lords, I beg to move.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK: My Lords, I should like to ask my noble friend one question about the agency arrangements. This Amendment does not meet the point which my noble friend Lord Brooke made, but I assume that the next Amendment would give permission for an agent to incur expenditure on

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behalf of the principal, by agreement, up to a 2p rate. Am I right in that? I am sorry to jump an Amendment ahead, but the two are very closely allied.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I think I should find it easier to stay in order if I took note of what my noble friend has just said, and dealt with it when we are actually discussing the next Amendment.
Clause 134 [Power of local authorities to incur expenditure for certain purposes not otherwise authorised]:
8.17 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 68:
Page 93, line 9, at end insert—
(" (1A) It is hereby declared that the power of a local authority to incur expenditure under subsection (1) above includes power to do so by contributing towards the defraying of expenditure by another local authority in or in connection with the exercise of that other authority's functions.")
The noble Lord said: This Amendment plugs a gap in the general power to use the free 2p introduced into the Bill at Committee stage. The general purpose of Clause 134 is to enable a local authority to incur expenditure for the benefit of the area, but in respect of which that authority has no specific power. It also allows a local authority to contribute towards the expenses of other bodies operating for the benefit of the area. The Amendment now makes it clear that the power also enables one authority to contribute towards the expenses of another authority which is providing services for the benefit of the area, but leaves discretion with the second authority as to whether to accept. The power to contribute is available to an authority, whether it is acting as agent for another authority or whether it is making a contribution direct to that other authority without the existence of any agency arrangement. The Amendment is in declaratory form since it could be possible to interpret Clause 134 as giving power without making the Amendment, but for clarity's sake the point is put beyond dispute.
I think my noble friends Lord Cranbrook and Lord Davidson will see that
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this Amendment, coupled with the previous Amendment, ensures that there is flexibility in the sharing of the financial burden between authorities which are in a joint working arrangement or an agency arrangement with each other, plus a power for one authority to supplement the services of another authority to the tune of the free 2p, whether or not a joint or an agency arrangement is operating. I think that is the point on which my noble friend Lord Cranbrook wanted an assurance, and I imagine that it is for that reason that he tabled Amendments Nos. 69 and 70. If I have not already satisfied him, perhaps he will indicate what further assurance he wants. I shall then try to give it on my Amendment, which may save him the trouble of moving his Amendment to my Amendment. My Lords, I beg to move.
8.20 p.m.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK THE EARL OF CRANBROOK moved Amendment No. 69 as an Amendment to Amendment No. 68:
Line 5, at end insert ("The limitation to the rate of 2p in the pound expressed in subsection (3) above shall not apply to expenditure incurred under this subsection.")
The noble Earl said: My Lords, in moving this Amendment I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, who has I think admirably met the point which I raised on Second Reading with the two Amendments Nos. 67 and 68. They do practically all that I would wish to be done and allow both the agent not having concurrent powers, as well as the authority which has concurrent powers, to contribute out of its own local rates. The reason why my noble friend Lord Davidson and I put this Amendment down is because we were a little disturbed, both of us coming from a part of the world where the local authorities tend to use voluntary organisations to do a great deal of the work which they could do themselves, and fairly frequently to do work which would otherwise be illegal for them to do. Although I do not think that the 2p limit would ever be very greatly at risk, it did seem to us that in the case of an authority which worked a great deal through voluntary organisations and the like, and also if it was a county council going in for agency arrangements on quite a large scale, there might come a time when the 2p rate would not be sufficient for both.
Under this clause the Secretary of State certainly has the power to vary the 2p rate, but I am not quite sure whether he can vary it for an individual council on request or whether it must be varied for every local authority in the land. Looking at it, I had assumed that it must be for every local authority in the land. I think that what my noble friend Lord Davidson and I fear will be a very rare occurrence, because a 2p rate is quite a substantial amount of money; and I would not want to press my Amendment if the Government did not wish to agree to it and could assure me that they will look into the matter to make quite certain that what we fear would not occur. But it is a risk, and I should be sorry to see it happen in a rather forward-looking authority which was spending its 2p rate to the limit. I beg to move my Amendment to Amendment No. 68.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I am not quite sure where we stand now. I thought I understood the noble Earl to say that the remarks I had made on Amendments Nos. 67 and 68 satisfied him, and that he would not feel it necessary to move his Amendment; but, nevertheless, he has done so. So I am not absolutely certain what more I need say in order to get him to withdraw his Amendment. I wonder whether the noble Earl could make a little clearer what it is he wants from me?
THE EARL, OF CRANBROOK:My Lords, it is not the noble Lord's obtuseness, I am sure; it must be my failure to make myself quite clear. What I am worried about is this. If in fact a local authority acting as an agent wishes to pay out of its free 2p for something concerning the function for which it is acting as an agent for another authority, it is permitted to do so under the new clause which the noble Lord has just moved. What disturbs me is that that local authority might already have committed practically all its 2p rate to some arrangements with voluntary organisations and the like, so that there was very little left for a statutory function. It seemed to me that it would be a mistake for it not to be able to carry out a statutory function because it had already paid away most of its 2p rate to other organisations which were doing things within its area. It is for that reason that we put down this
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Amendment which would exclude from the 2p limit money which was spent on a statutory function. Have I made myself clear to the noble Lord now?
BARONESS WHITE: With great respect, my Lords, I am very anxious to get this clear because I think it is an important point. Am I not right, or am I being unduly obtuse, in saying that under the first subsection here a statutory function cannot be covered by the 2p rate because it is specifically excluded? If a local authority has statutory powers by virtue of any enactment, that does not come within the 2p rate expenditure, as I understand it, so the particular position could not arise.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK: My Lords, I was including in what had become a statutory function a function which it was exercising as an agent. Normally, it would have no power to incur expenditure as an agent. This gives an agent the power to spend money on a function for which it would normally have no statutory power. I would be sorry to see that curtailed because all of the 2p was already committed to something else.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I think I see what the noble Earl is driving at, but I must confirm that the noble Baroness is perfectly right. The free 2p is for spending on those functions, activities or purposes for which that particular authority has no statutory duty. What an authority is doing as an agent for another authority is quite a different thing. The fact that it may be providing some particular service—say, a district providing some part of an education service—does not mean, because it is acting as an agent, that it has taken on itself, as it were, the mantle of statutory responsibility for education. It means simply that it is acting as an agent. The position remains that it is free to spend 2p in the extension of whatever it might be doing as an agent for the benefit of its own particular area, but not more than 2p.
The other point the noble Earl was making was that it is important to make sure that there is enough "in the kitty", as it were, for the discharge of statutory functions first of all, before considering what more might be spent on non-statu-

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tory functions under the powers provided in the Bill and known colloquially as the "free 2p". The point I was making on Amendment No. 67 remains: that when two authorities are exercising their powers concurrently, it is up to them to make arrangements for the sharing of the cost of the discharge of those functions; but as they are exercising concurrent powers, and they both have statutory responsibilities, the use of the free 2p does not arise here unless it is used to defray further expenses in conjunction with the discharge of those statutory functions but going beyond those statutory functions. I hope that makes the position clear.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK:My Lords, I must confess that I do not think the noble Lord on the Front Bench is any better at explaining the position than I am myself, and I am a little more muddled now than I was when I started. Perhaps between now and the day after to-morrow the noble Lord will try to disentangle what we have both been saying to-night, to see whether he can understand what we are both driving at and if the position as it appears to be in the Bill is correct. I am still a little disturbed, I must confess, that the agent who is carrying out a function for which it has otherwise no statutory power might be too limited by the clause as the noble Lord has moved it. That is the only thing that worries me, and perhaps the noble Lord could just think about that during the course of the next 36 hours.
LORD SANDFORD: Certainly, my Lords, I will do that. Then the noble Earl and I, who have had extensive correspondence on the subject, can continue it beyond the date on which this Bill receives the Royal Assent.
THE EARL OF CRANBROOK:My Lords, with permission, I will withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment to the Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, Amendment No. 71 is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 94, line 2, after ("area") insert ("as").—(Lord Sandford.)
Clause 137 [Insurance by local authorities against accidents to members.]:
8.31 p.m.
LORD GARNSWORTHY LORD GARNSWORTHY moved Amendment No. 72:
Page 95, line 31, after ("member") insert ("or officer").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, an Amendment similar to this was moved at the Committee stage, and I subsequently withdrew it. The purpose of the Amendment is to authorise a local authority to take out an insurance for officers in the same way that Clause 137 allows insurance to be taken out to cover accidents sustained by members while engaged on the business of the authority. I withdrew my Amendment after the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie, had repeated assurances given by his right honourable friend Mr. Speed in the other place, that the point of the Amendment would be met by the powers provided in Section 7 of the Superannuation Act 1972. He further promised to write to me as to whether the proposals for local government would follow the National Health Service proposals in this respect. I am greatly indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, for writing to me, and I appreciate the detailed nature of his letters. I am not at all sure that they have taken us very much further; indeed, those with whom I have consulted are certainly not satisfied with the position and feel that there is a genuine need to include the word "officer", as proposed in the Amendment, in this clause.
Without repeating all that was set out in those letters I should like to pursue just one or two points. Under Regulation 7 of the Local Government Benefits Regulations 1954, local authorities have a discretionary power to pay an injury allowance to a contributory employee who ceases to be employed in consequence of permanent incapacity as a result of injuries sustained in the course of employment. Over and above this, paragraph 97 of the Scheme of Conditions of Service for A, B, T, and C officers in local government service recommends employing authorities to indemnify employees or their dependants against violence and loss caused by violence or criminal assault in the course of that employment. Both these provisions exist concurrently. Some authorities have taken out insurance cover

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going beyond the risk of assault. Here I ought to say that the staff side have sought within the National Joint Council to improve paragraph 97 to which I have referred.
In his first letter, the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, referred to the preparation of regulations to deal with this matter and mentioned agreed terms for injury allowances which include upper limits for the amounts which may be awarded but leave to the employer the decision as to the nature and amount of the award. I will quote from the closing paragraph of the noble Lord's letter of September 28:
" It is not intended to limit the discretion of local authorities by laying down rigid formulae such as the scales of employment according to the degree of impairment. Scales of this kind have been proposed for the National Health Service and some other public services, but in local government it has been found preferable to leave the employer to deal with each case on its merits and this will be the basis which will apply. The powers will be such that if an authority choose to provide injury allowances by means of arrangements through an insurance company they will be able to do so. Some authorities prefer to carry the risk themselves and would not want to be confined to providing cover through insurance policies. The powers will enable either course to be adopted."
My Lords, in the light of what was said, I thought it proper that I should consult with those on the staff side; and the advice I have received is that in fact nothing is conceded by what has been stated in those letters. The staff side feel that nothing has been conceded by anything that was said. I think I ought to say bluntly that there is genuine concern that the Government intend that what now exists will be swept on one side, except the power to pay under regulations. I have thought it fitting to pursue this matter to this stage. I do not anticipate that if I press my Amendment I shall get very far with it; but if anything additional to what has been said can be said from the Front Benches opposite, something that can give satisfaction to the staff side, it would be extremely useful. The acceptance of the Amendment would give a great deal of pleasure—and more than pleasure, satisfaction—because it is felt that the Amendment improves the clause and certainly would make the Bill to that extent more acceptable to the staff side. I beg to move.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I think it was right that the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, should have referred in some detail to the correspondence that my noble friend Lord Sandford has had with him on this matter. I ought to point out that there are two strands, as I understand it, in the noble Lord's argument. First, he is quite right that negotiations are going on. These are really the fairly familiar type of negotiation between employers—not in this case just the Government; there are local authorities and some other employers in the public sector who are concerned in this matter—and the staff who are employed by them. The details of the terms and the extent to which the negotiations succeed in the eyes of one side or another seem to me to be one thing. What we must be sure of in dealing with the legislation and the statutory basis for the negotiations is that the employers are able to concede or to agree to a reasonable proposal, if that is what emerges from the negotiations between the parties. I should be loth to go into the details of the negotiations themselves because I think that that is something that we should be chary of doing on the Floor of the House. It is better left to the machinery set up between the two sides. This is going strong at the moment:meetings have been taking place and will probably continue to take place. We must be sure on the Report stage of this Bill that if a local authority desires to provide cover by way of insurance for its officers as well as its members it has the statutory power to do so. That seems to me the point on which the Amendment turns and none other.
My Lords, the situation is simply this. Under Section 7 of the Superannuation Act there are powers to make regulations. These powers relate not only to local government employees but to a number of other employees in the public sector and, for all I know, elsewhere. I think it is mainly the public sector and local government. There is absolutely nothing whatever to prevent regulations from being made under Section 7 to deal with this matter by way of insurance. There is at the moment a proposal to make regulations under that section. The only thing that has been left at large, as I understand the present state of play, is whether a local authority shall be forced

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to do it by way of insurance rather than carry the risk itself. The whole essence of this Bill is to leave local authorities with a certain amount of flexibility, independence and ability to judge for themselves. There will be nothing to stop local authorities from dealing with this matter by way of insurance. The regulations under the Superannuation Act, when made, will allow them to do so.
The only thing at which we draw the line is forcing them to do so. As a matter of fact Clause 137 is permissive anyway, so the situation is covered under the existing Statutes. The regulations will make it doubly sure. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, has had spelt out to him in the correspondence the contents of the regulations so far as they had gone at the moment. He is aware of what is going into them. There can be no possible doubt that insurance cover of this kind can be provided by local authorities to their employees, if the authorities wish to do it by way of insurance. Some may prefer to take the risk themselves. lf, in addition to the Superannuation Act and the powers under it, and in the regulations that are to be made, we muddied the water by putting in an extra overlapping power in this Bill, we should be falling into that cardinal sin of Parliamentary drafting which is to make it uncertain, by duplicating powers, what were the powers in the original Act.
I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, will accept from me that there are perfectly adequate powers to do this by regulation under the 1972 Act. I hope that he will accept the good faith of what my noble friend Lord Sandford said in his letter and that in the circumstances he will forgive me if I do not go into the details of the staff negotiations in the joint committee which is meeting at the moment; and that he will allow me the honour of telling the House that this is an unnecessary Amendment because powers already exist. I hope that that will satisfy the noble Lord. I cannot go into the details of it now. I hope, though, that he and those he has consulted will feel sure that what they want can be achieved under statutory powers already on the Statute Book and that they have nothing to fear at all.
LORD GARNSWORTHY:My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord
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Colville of Culross. I am still left with the feeling that there is no good case for not accepting this Amendment, but in view of the Government's attitude it would be wasting the time of the House to press the matter further. I had no intention of discussing the negotiations. There is a great deal that could be said. I hope that it was not inappropriate to quote briefly from what the Minister had set out, because I think it is important. What has been said by the noble Viscount will be studied carefully. I am grateful to him for the great care he has taken with his reply and for the clarity of what he said. I hope that a degree of satisfaction will be obtained by those for whom I have endeavoured to speak, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 142 [Provision of entertainments]:
8.44 p.m.
THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (VISCOUNT ECCLES)THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (VISCOUNT ECCLES)moved Amendment No. 74:
Page 98, line 9, leave out from ("provision") to second ("of") in line 10.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords I think it would be for the convenience of the House if we discussed Amendments 74 to 77 together. Your Lordships will remember that when we were dealing with Clause 142 on Committee stage the Committee inserted a new subsection (1)(d). That subsection empowered local authorities to support the development and improvement of knowledge, understanding and practice of the arts and the crafts which serve the arts. We have since found that there was a small defect in Clause 142 because, as it stands, it enables local authorities to provide only in the case of entertainments and dances refreshments and programmes, and to charge for those facilities and for admission. This is too narrow. I am told that concerts would come within the definition of "entertainment" but that an exhibition of art or of the crafts would not. Your Lordships will be well aware that, what with transport and security and insurance, these exhibitions cost a lot of money, and therefore the object of these four connected Amendments is to put right that oversight. I beg to move Amendment No. 74.
BARONESS WHITE: My Lords, this is one of the few groups of Government Amendments which we can wholeheartedly welcome and support. They relate to a little omission which I must admit escaped us, and we are delighted that the Government have recognised just in time that something needed to be done. We are certainly strongly in favour of including exhibitions of art and crafts in the provisions of the clause.
VISCOUNT ECCLES: My Lords I beg to move Amendment No. 75.
Amendment moved—
Page 98, line 12, after ("dance") insert ("or exhibition of arts or crafts").—(Viscount Eccles.)
VISCOUNT ECCLES: I beg to move Amendment No. 76:
Amendment moved—
Page 98, line 27, after ("dance") insert ("or exhibition of arts or crafts").—(Viscount Eccles.)
VISCOUNT ECCLES: I beg to move Amendment No. 77.
Amendment moved—
Page 98, line 28, leave out ("at any such entertainment or dance") and insert ("thereat").—(Viscount Eccles.)
Clause 148 [Arrangements by local authorities for receipt and payment of money]:
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 78:
Leave out Clause 148 and insert the following new clause—
Financial administration
("148. Without prejudice to section 109 above, every local authority shall make arrangements for the proper administration of their financial affairs and shall secure that one of their officers has responsibility for the administration of those affairs.")
The noble Lord said: The purpose of this new Clause, which replaces the previous Clause 148, is to require local authorities to secure good financial administration and to make one of their officers responsible for this matter. The new clause has been tabled in response to
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strong representations made by the Institute of Municipal Treasurers and Accountants who were concerned that the Bill did not do enough to secure and maintain financial integrity in local government. We understand that the new clause is generally acceptable to the Institute. It does not retain, as the Institute would have liked, the statutory post of treasurer, since this would conflict with the Government's view that each authority should be able to adopt the management structure most likely, in its view, to meet its needs. I beg to move the Amendment.
LORD REDCLIFFE-MAUD: My Lords, may I say that I very much applaud the spirit of the Government both in listening to the Institute of Municipal Treasurers and Accountants and proposing this Amendment; and also for not listening to them more than the Government have done. It would have been intolerable if these (if I may say so) seemingly arrogant professionals had insisted on having the word "treasurer" inserted when the Government have been showing such wisdom in leaving an increasing amount of discretion to local authorities about what they call their officers. I only wish that the Government had been able to go further and been able to forget the director of social services and the director of education, not because these are not indispensable officers but because you can trust the local authorities to appoint them rather than have Parliament telling them that they must. But equally, here again, it is right that we should have an instruction from Parliament that every local authority must see to it that there is an adequate person to do this work. It is absolutely right that the wording should be in the terms proposed by the Government, and I support the Amendment.
Clause 151 [Accounts to be audited by district or approved auditor]:
8.50 p.m.
THE EARL OF GOWRIE: My Lords, what your Lordships may have to suffer on account of my voice, which labours under a very heavy cold, for which I apologise, may be compensated for by the knowledge that Amendments Nos. 79 to 101 comprise a package already

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handled by my noble friend Lord Sandford under Amendment No. 51B. Accordingly, I beg to move Amendment No. 79, and likewise to move formally the rest of the Amendments on page 11, up to and including Amendment No. 101 on page 24.
Amendments moved—
Clause 151, page 104, line 32, leave out ("a") and insert ("the").
line 33, leave out ("or of a") and insert ("of each of the parishes or communities in a particular district and of every").
line 35, leave out ("the same") and insert ("that").
line 38, leave out ("the parish or community is, or").
page 106, line 46, after ("(a)") insert ("(c)").
page 107, line 8, after ("direction") insert ("and subsequent financial years")
line 11, leave out from ("if") to ("be") in line 12 and insert (" by virtue of a resolution of the body concerned under subsection (2) or subsection (4) above, for the financial year so specified and subsequent financial years the accounts are to").
line 13, at end insert—(" (11) The provisions of this section shall have effect with respect to the accounts of a common parish council under which are grouped, by virtue of section 11(5) above, parishes situated in different districts as if all the parishes in the group were comprised in that district in which there is, at the time at which this provision comes into force, the greater number of local government electors for the parishes in the group.")
Clause 158, page 111, line 36, leave out from the beginning to ("the") in line 37
line 38, after (" accounts") insert ("of that body").
leave out ("him") and insert ("the body")
Clause 161, page 113, line 44 after ("shall") insert ("(a)")
line 45, leave out ("may, instead") and insert ("b")
line 46, after ("auditor") insert (" or
(c) if the body is a principal council or the Common Council, resolve that certain of the accounts concerned shall be audited by an auditor appointed by the council and the rest of those accounts shall be audited by the district auditor")
page 114, line 2, leave out from ("allow") to ("shall") in line 3 and insert (" particulars of the new appointment made under paragraph (a) above")
line 5, leave out from ("resolution") to end of line 6 and insert (" under paragraph (b) or paragraph (c) above shall be sent to him together, in the case of a
1800
resolution under paragraph (c) above, with the particulars (required to be sent to him under subsection (1) above) of the appointment made by virtue of the resolution")
line 41, at the beginning insert ("The provisions of subsection (8A) below shall apply")
page 115, line 4, leave out from the beginning to ("and") in line 6 and insert—
(" (8A) If any of the events specified in subsection (8) above occurs, the body which appointed the auditor shall—

(a) proceed to make a new appointment, Or

(b) resolve that the accounts concerned shall be audited by the district auditor, or

(c) if the body is a principal council or the Common Council, resolve that certain of the accounts concerned shall be audited by an auditor appointed by the council and the rest of those accounts shall be audited by the district auditor.")

line 8, leave out from ("allow") to ("shall") in line 9 and insert ("particulars of the new appointment made under paragraph (a) above")
line 11, leave out from ("resolution") to end of line 12 and insert (" under paragraph (b) or paragraph (c) above shall be sent to him together in the case of a resolution under paragraph (c) above, with the particulars (required to be sent to him under subsection (1) above) of the appointment made by virtue of the resolution")
line 14, leave out (" (8)") and insert (" (8A)")
Clause 165, page 116, line 45, leave out ("parish meeting of a") and insert ("the chairman of the parish meeting of every")
page 117, line 17, after ("authority") insert ("or by or on behalf of a parish meeting")
line 18, after ("authority") insert (" or the chairman of the meeting")
Clause 168, page 119, line 14, leave out Clause 168 and insert the following new clause—
Rates of interest in relation to certain sums due to local authorities
("168.—(1) The rate of interest fixed by subsection (2) below shall be substituted for the rate or, as the case may be, the maximum rate of interest determined by or under the following enactments (which relate among other things to the interest payable to local authorities on certain sums due to them), that is to say—

the proviso to section 291(3) of the Public Health Act 1936;

section 10(2) of the Coast Protection Act 1949;

section 10(6) of the Housing Act 1957;

sections 181(5), 212 and 264(5) of the Highways Act 1959;

section 6(4) of the Housing Act 1969; and section 23(5) of the Mines and Quarries (Tips) Act 1969.

(2) The said rate shall be one-quarter per cent above the relevant rate determined by the Treasury in relation to loans made for a period of fifteen years under section 3 of the National Loans Act 1968 (local loans by the Loan Commissioners); and in this subsection the "relevant rate" means the rate applying on whichever of the following dates, namely 1st April or 1st October, most closely precedes the date from which interest first becomes payable in relation to the sum in question, or, where more than one rate has been so determined, such one of those rates as the Treasury may from time to time direct either generally or with respect to any particular enactment.
(3) As soon as may be after giving a direction under subsection (2) above the Treasury shall cause it to be published in the London Gazette.")
Clause 169, page 119, line 24, leave out from beginning to ("shall") and insert (" Part I of Schedule 13 to this Act shall have effect with respect to the powers of local authorities to borrow and lend money and with respect to their funds, and Part II of that Schedule").
Line 26, after ("by") insert ("Part I of that Schedule or").
Schedule 13, page 284, line 1, at end insert—
(" LOANS AND OTHER FINANCIAL PROVISIONS

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL
  PART I

    BORROWING, LENDING AND FUNDS
    Borrowing by local authorities
    1. Without prejudice to section 109 above—

    (a) a principal council may borrow money for the purpose of ending money to another authority (including a police, river, or harbour authority) under paragraph 13 or 14 below; and

    (b) a local authority other than the Greater London Council may borrow money for any other purpose or class of purpose approved for the purposes of this subparagraph by the Secretary of State and in accordance with any conditions subject to which the approval is given.

    2.—(1) Where a local authority are authorised by or under this Act or any other enactment to borrow money, they may raise the money—

    (a) by mortgage;

    (b) by the issue of stock;

    (c) by the issue of debentures or annuity certificates under the Local Loans Act 1875;

    (d) by the issue of bonds :

    (e) by the issue of bills;

    (f) by an agreement entered into with the Public Works Loan Commissioners under section 2 of the Public Works Loans Act 1965; or

    (g) by any other means approved by the Secretary of State with the consent of the Treasury.

    (2) The powers conferred by this paragraph shall be exercisable subject to and in accordance with the following provisions of this Part of this Schedule.
    3. The power of a local authority to borrow money by any means includes power to raise money by those means outside the United Kingdom or in a foreign currency, but only with the consent of, and in accordance with any conditions specified by, the Treasury.
    4.—(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations made with the consent of the Treasury—

    (a) prescribe the form of any mortgage deed to be entered into for the purpose of any borrowing by a local authority;

    (b) regulate the issue of stocks and bonds for any such purpose, including the terms on which they are to be issued;

    (c) regulate the manner of transfer, dealing with and redeeming any mortgage created, or stocks or bonds issued, for any such purpose;

    (d) apply all or any of the provisions of section 224 above, with or without modifications to any such mortgage deed, stock or bonds.

    (2) Different provisions may be made under this paragraph for securities of different classes.
    (3) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this paragraph shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
    5.—(1) A local authority may borrow by the issue of bills, payable within twelve months from the date of issue—

    (a) any sum which they are authorised to borrow, by or under this Act or any other enactment; or

    (b) such sums as may be required for the purpose of defraying expenses (including those payable by them to meet the expenses of other local authorities) pending the receipt of revenues receivable by them in respect of the financial year in which those expenses are chargeable.

    (2) The aggregate of the amount outstanding on hills issued by a local authority under sub-paragraph (1) above shall not exceed a sum equal to such proportion of the authority's estimated gross income derived from rates during the current financial year as may be prescribed by an order made by the Treasury or, if no such proportion is so prescribed—

    (a) in the case of a county council or the Greater London Council, a sum equal to one-fifth of that income; and

    (b) in any other case, a sum equal to one-fifth of the proportion of that income retained by the council for its own purposes during that year.

    (3) A local authority shall not borrow by the issue of bills in any financial year during which the authority's estimated gross income derived from rates does not exceed £3 million or such other sum as may be prescribed by an order made by the Treasury.
    (4) A statutory instrument containing an order under this paragraph shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
    6. A local authority may issue bonds transferable by delivery (with or without endorsement) and other securities so transferable, but only with the consent of, and in accordance with any conditions specified by, the Treasury.
    7.—(1) Where expenditure incurred by a local authority for any purpose is defrayed by borrowing, the local authority shall subject to paragraph 9(8) below, in each year debit the account from which that expenditure would otherwise fall to be defrayed with a sum equivalent to an instalment of principal and interest combined such that if paid annually it would secure the payment of interest at the due rate on the outstanding principal together with the repayment of the principal not later than the end of the fixed period.
    (2) Sub-paragraph (1) above shall not prevent a local authority from debiting the said account with a sum larger than that specified in that sub-paragraph.
    8. A local authority who borrow money under paragraph 1(b) above may during the fixed period borrow further sums, without the approval of the Secretary of State under that sub-paragraph, for the purpose of repaying the money so borrowed.
    9.—(1) Where a sum is borrowed before or after the coming into force of this Schedule, but not before 31st July 1963 (being the commencement date for the Local Government (Financial Provisions) Act 1963) by a local authority for any of the following purposes, that is to say,—

    (a) meeting expenditure on the construction of new, or the extension or alteration of existing, works forming or to form part of an undertaking of a revenue-producing character;

    (b) carrying out on land any other operations, being operations of a prescribed kind or operations specified in relation to that land by direction of the Secretary of State;

    (c) acquiring land for the purpose of the construction thereon of new, or the extension or alteration of existing, works forming or to form part of an undertaking of a revenue-producing character, or for the purpose of the carrying out thereon of operations of a kind prescribed by virtue of paragraph (b) above, or operations specified in relation to that land by direction of the Secretary of State;

    (d) acquiring land specified by direction of the Secretary of State;

    the authority may in respect of one permitted period determined by them exercise their power of suspension as defined by sub-paragraph (4) below or their power of borrowing under subparagraph (5) below, or both powers.
    (2) Where—

    (a) land is acquired by a local authority before or after the coming into force of this Schedule, but not before 31st July 1963; and

    (b) a sum is borrowed by the authority for the purpose of the acquisition; and

    (c) the acquisition is not for a purpose :nentioned in sub-paragraph (1)(c) above; and

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    (d) the land is subsequently appropriated for a purpose so mentioned;

    the authority may in respect of one permitted period determined by them exercise their power of suspension as defined by sub-paragraph (4) below or their power of borrowing under subparagraph (5) below, or both powers.
    (3) Where before 31st July, 1963 land has been acquired by a local authority, and a sum was borrowed by the authority for the purpose of the acquisition, and either—

    (a) the land was acquired for a purpose mentioned in sub-paragraph (1)(c) above, or (not having been so acquired) was before that date appropriated for such a purpose, but the construction, extension or alteration of the works or the carrying out of the operations that constitutes the purpose for which the land was acquired or appropriated was not begun till after that date, or was begun but not completed before that date; or

    (b) the land was, on or after that date, appropriated for a purpose mentioned in the said sub-paragraph (1)(c);

    the authority may in respect of one permitted period determined by them exercise their power of suspension as defined by sub-paragraph (4) below or their power of borrowing under subparagraph (5) below, or both powers.
    (4) A local authority's power of suspension is a power to suspend, in whole or in part, any annual provision required to be made during the permitted period for the repayment of the principal.
    (5) A local authority's power of borrowing tinder this sub-paragraph is a power to borrow money for the payment of all or any of the interest clue in respect of the permitted period on the principal.
    (6) The permitted period in relation to a sum borrowed as mentioned in sub-paragraph (1)(d) above is a period not longer than ten years, nor beginning ten years or less before the expiration of the fixed period for that sum, and in any other case is a period not longer than five years, nor beginning five years or less, before the expiration of the fixed period for the sum originally borrowed; but the Secretary of State may in any case, if requested to do so by the local authority by whom the sum was borrowed, substitute for the references in the foregoing provision to ten years or the references in that provision to five years a longer period so requested.
    (7) A sum borrowed by virtue of subparagraph (5) above for the payment of interest on the principal must be repaid within the fixed period for the principal.
    (8) Where by virtue of paragraph 7 above a local authority are required to debit a sum to any account and they suspend, in whole or in part, any annual provision for the repayment of the principal, they may refrain from debiting to that account an amount equal to the amount of the annual provision so suspended.
    (9) Any reference in any enactment passed before this Act to Part IX or section 198 of the 1933 Act shall be construed as including a

    1805
    reference to the foregoing provisions of this paragraph.
    10.—(1) A local authority may, without the approval of the Secretary of State under paragraph 1(b) above, borrow by way of temporary loan or overdraft from a bank or otherwise any sums which they may temporarily require—

    (a) for the purpose of defraying expenses (including the payment of sums due by them to meet the expenses of other authorities) pending receipt of revenues receivable by them in respect of the period of account in which those expenses are chargeable;

    (b) for the purpose of defraying, pending the raising of a loan which the authority have been authorised to raise, expenses intended to be defrayed by means of the loan.

    (2) Where a local authority borrow money under this paragraph for a purpose mentioned in paragraph 1(b) above or, in the case of the Greater London Council, a purpose authorised by any local enactment and subsequently raise a loan for that purpose, the loan shall, to the extent of the sum borrowed temporarily, be treated for the purposes of this Part of this Schedule as having been made at the time of the temporary borrowing.
    11.—(1) All money borrowed by a local authority, whether before or after the coming into force of this Schedule, shall be charged indifferently on all the revenues of the authority.
    (2) Subject to sub-paragraph (3) below, all securities created by a local authority, whether under this Part of this Schedule or any other enactment or instrument under an enactment, shall rank equally without any priority.
    (3) This paragraph shall not affect any priority existing at, or any right to priority conferred by a security created before, 1st June 1934.
    12. Two or more local authorities may combine to exercise their powers of borrowing under this Part of this Schedule jointly, and where they do so—

    (a) any limit on the amount which each authority may borrow shall apply to the amount which each authority receive from the joint loan;

    (b) paragraph 11 above shall apply to the money so borrowed as if references to a local authority were references to the local authority by whom the money is received.

    Loans by local authorities
    13.—(1) A local authority or the Common Council may lend to another authority mentioned in sub-paragraph (2) below, on such terms as may be agreed between them, such sums as that other authority may require for any purpose for which that other authority are authorised to borrow money by or under this Act or any other enactment.
    (2) The authorities to whom sums may be lent under sub-paragraph (1) above are local authorities, the Common Council, the Sub-Treasurer of the Inner Temple, the Under Treasurer of the Middle Temple, a joint board
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    consisting of representatives of local authorities or any of the foregoing authorities and, without prejudice to the foregoing, a police or river authority.
    14.—(1) A principal council may make loans to a harbour authority for a harbour wholly or partly situated within the area of the council, on such terms as may be agreed between the council and the authority, for the purpose of enabling the harbour authority to do anything which they have power to do.
    (2) In this paragraph "harbour" and "harbour authority" have the same meaning as in the Harbours Act 1964.
    Funds of local authorities
    15.—(1) A local authority may in accordance with a scheme made by them establish and operate a loans fund for defraying any expenditure which the authority are authorised by or under any enactment to meet out of moneys borrowed by them and for the repayment or redemption of debt.
    (2) A scheme made by a local authority under this section may be varied or revoked by a subsequent scheme made by them.
    16.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Schedule, a local authority may establish either or both of the following funds, that is to say—

    (a) a capital fund, to be used for defraying any expenditure of the authority to which capital is properly applicable, or in providing money for repayment of loans (but not in making any annual payment required to be made in respect of loans);

    (b) a renewal and repairs fund, to be used for the purpose of defraying expenditure to be incurred from time to time in repairing, maintaining, replacing and renewing any buildings, works, plant, equipment or article, belonging to the authority.

    (2) It is hereby declared that the reference to the authority in sub-paragraph (1)(b) above, in the case of a county council, includes a reference to a police authority which is a committee of that council.
    (3) A fund established by a local authority under this paragraph shall not be used to meet, directly or indirectly, any expenditure incurred by the authority for the purposes of an undertaking of the authority, being a transport, water, district heating, harbour, dock, pier or ferry undertaking or a market or civic restaurant, except that such a fund may be used by the Greater London Council so to meet any expenditure incurred by them for the purpose of a civic restaurant.
    (4) Pending the application of any such fund as aforesaid for the purposes authorised by this paragraph, the money in the fund shall (unless applied in any other manner authorised by or under any enactment) be invested in statutory securities.
    (5) A local authority may close any fund established by them under any other enactment for a purpose for which a fund may be established under this paragraph and transfer any final balance standing to the credit of

    1807
    the former fund to any other fund established by them under this paragraph.
    (6) In this paragraph "statutory securities" means any security in which trustees are for the time being authorised by law to invest trust moneys.
    17.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this paragraph, a local authority by whom a capital fund is established under paragraph 16 above may pay into that fund—

    (a) any sums derived from the sale of any property of the local authority, not being property held by them for a purpose expenditure on which is prohibited by paragraph 16(3) above;

    (b) the whole or any part of the surplus of the revenue income over the revenue expenditure of the revenue fund on 31st March in any year, except so far as required by law to be applied to or carried forward for any other purpose; and

    (c) such other sums from the revenue fund as the local authority may by resolution direct;

    and shall pay into that capital fund a sum equal to the amount of any income arising from the fund.
    (2) The aggregate amount paid by a local authority into a capital fund under paragraphs (b) and (c) of sub-paragraph (1) above shall not, except with the consent of the Secretary of State, exceed in any year the equivalent of the product of a rate of 5p in the £, and no payment shall be made by the local authority into any such capital fund so as to make the fund exceed such sum as the Secretary of State may from time to time determine either generally or in any particular case.
    (3) In the case of an application of money in any such capital fund, the amount to be applied shall not in any one transaction exceed such sum as the Secretary of State may determine generally or in any particular case.
    (4) Except as provided by this paragraph, all money applied from any such capital fund may, if the local authority think fit, be repaid from the account to which that money is advanced by such annual instalments (with or without interest) and within such period as the local authority may determine.
    18.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this paragraph, a local authority by whom a renewal and repairs fund is established under paragraph 16 above may from time to time pay into that fund such sums as they think tit from the revenue fund and shall so pay a sum equal to the amount of any income arising from the renewal and repairs fund.
    (2) No payment shall be made by a local authority into any such renewal and repairs fund so as to make the fund exceed such sum as the Secretary of State may from time to time determine either generally or in a particular case.
    (3) The purposes for which any such renewal and repairs fund may be applied shall not include expenditure for the purposes of an undertaking of the authority in respect of
    1808
    which the authority are authorised to provide a reserve fund.
    19.—(1) Notwithstanding anything in any enactment a local authority may use, for any purpose for which the authority has a statutory power to borrow, any money forming part of, but not for the time being required for the purposes of, any fund of theirs to which this paragraph applies; and where any such money is so used the following provisions of this paragraph shall have effect.
    (2) The money so used shall be repaid to the said fund as follows :—

    (a) it shall be repaid as and when it is required for the purposes of that fund;

    (b) if not required to be repaid earlier under paragraph (a) above, it shall be repaid within the period within which a loan raised under the statutory power would be repayable, or at such time before the expiration of that period as the authority may resolve :

    (c) the repayment shall be made out of the revenue fund of the authority, or out of money which would have been applicable to the repayment of a loan raised under the statutory power, and shall be made by the method by which a loan raised under the statutory power would be repayable.

    (3) In the accounts of the revenue fund of the authority, an amount equal to interest at the appropriate rate on the money so used and for the time being not repaid shall be credited to the said fund and debited to the undertaking or purpose for which the money is so used.
    (4) The statutory power shall be deemed to be exercised by the use of money under this paragraph as fully in all respects as if a loan of the same amount had been raised in exercise of the power.
    (5) This paragraph applies to any fund established for the repayment of debt, or as a reserve, or for the maintenance, renewal or repair of property, or for superannuation of staff, or for insurance, or otherwise for meeting future expenditure of a capital or nonrecurring nature, or for any like purpose.
    (6) In this paragraph—
    " interest at the appropriate rate" means interest at such rate as may be determined by the authority to be equal as nearly as may be to the rate of interest which would be payable on a loan raised on mortgage under the statutory power;
    " statutory power to borrow" means a power to borrow conferred by or under this Act or any other enactment, except the power to borrow by way of temporary loan or overdraft conferred by paragraph 10 above.
    (7) The powers conferred by this paragraph are in addition to, and not in derogation of, the powers conferred by or under any other enactment.
    Miscellaneous
    20. A person lending money to a local authority shall not be bound to inquire whether the borrowing of the money is legal or regular or whether the money raised was

    1809
    properly applied and shall not be prejudiced by any illegality or irregularity, or by the misapplication or non-application of any of that money.
    21. This Part of this Schedule shall not apply to—

    (a) any mortgage of property effected under section 310 of the Public Health Act 1936 or any previous corresponding enactment or the power of a local authority under that section to effect a mortgage; or

    (b) any local bonds issued under section 138 of the Housing Act 1957 or any previous corresponding enactment, or the power conferred on a local authority by that section to issue local bonds.

    22.—(1) In this Part of this Schedule—
    " debentures" includes debenture stock;
    "fixed period", in relation to any money borrowed, means the period within which the money is to be repaid as determined by the local authority with the consent of the Secretary of State or, in the case of the Greater London Council, of the Treasury;
    "revenue fund" means the county fund, the general rate fund, the general fund of the Greater London Council or the general rate of the City, as the case may be.
    (2) In paragraphs 15 to 19 above "local authority" includes the Common Council and a combined police authority which is a body corporate.
    PART II")
    page 284, line 9, leave out paragraph 2.
    page 285, line 2, leave out paragraph 4.
    line 33, leave out paragraph 6 and insert—
    ("The Town and Country Planning Act 1959
    6. In the Town and Country Planning Act 1959, for section 27(2)(d) there shall be substituted the following paragraph:—
    (d) that the capital money is to be applied by the authority for any purpose for which borrowing is authorised by paragraph 1(b) of Schedule 13 to the Local Government Act 1972.")
    line 41, leave out paragraph 7.
    page 286, line 36, at end insert—
    (" (iA) in a parish or community part of which is so subject, the part which is not so subject")
    line 41, leave out from ("area") to end of line 42 and insert ("in England not falling within sub-paragraph (i), (iA) or (ii) above")
    line 44, leave out ("those") and insert ("the foregoing")
    House adjourned at eight minutes before nine o'clock.