Sitting of 14 November 1972

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
MESSAGES FROM THE QUEEN

  DOUBLE TAXATION RELIEF
  The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:
  I have received your Address praying that the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) Zambia Order, 1972 be made in the form of the draft laid before your House.
  I will comply with this request.

  QUEEN'S SPEECH (ANSWER TO ADDRESS)
  The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:
  I have received with great satisfaction the loyal and dutiful expression of your thanks for the Speech with which I opened the present Session of Parliament.

PRIVATE BUSINESS
  SCRABSTER HARBOUR (VEHICLE FERRY TERMINAL &C.) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Considered; to be read the Third time tomorrow.
PETITION

  Disabled Persons (Income)
  Mr. Ashley: With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I beg to present a Petition signed by no fewer than a quarter of a million members of the Disablement Income Group and others.
  Their Petition states that
  There exist in our society large numbers of disabled people of all ages for whom inadequate provision is made by society.
  Their Petition concludes:
  Wherefore your Petitioners pray that the House of Commons give urgent consideration to the designing and introduction of a well-structured national disability income with components to compensate for the loss of ability to earn and for the extra expenses of disabled living.
  And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.
  To lie upon the Table.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SOCIAL SERVICES

    Industrial Disputes (Benefit)
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he hopes to complete his examination of social benefits for dependants of those on strike.
    The Secretary of State for Social Services (Sir Keith Joseph): I cannot forecast a date.
    Mr. Dalyell: Would it be an injustice to the Secretary of State to suggest that when we saw the right hon. Gentleman on television at his party conference he was being a bit too emollient towards those in his party who would like to see the social benefits withdrawn from dependants of those on strike?
    Sir K. Joseph: I do not think I have to withdraw a word or nuance of what I said at the Conservative Party conference.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Can my right hon. Friend advise us on a matter of perhaps rather more immediate concern? Am I right in assuming that, if groups of

    189
    employees were to strike against the freeze Bill which we shall be discussing later today, during the duration of such a strike they would be legally entitled to draw supplementary benefits to sustain them in defiance of the law?
    Sir K. Joseph: The Bill now before the House makes provision for offences against the standstill. The underlying Social Security Act has not been altered, and it is not at the moment intended for amendment.
    Mr. Eadie: Will the right hon. Gentleman take the opportunity to dissociate himself from people who believe that the way to solve the problem is to starve women and children into submission when there is industrial conflict?
    Sir K. Joseph: We go over this dialogue every Question Time. The fact is that my hon. Friends and many people in the country from both sides of the political divide are extremely worried about abuse of the social security arrangements, which were made for humane reasons and which are sometimes exploited for political reasons.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what has been the total cost during 1972 to date of supplementary benefits paid to those involved in industrial disputes and their dependants, together with the cost of payments made after return to work and not recovered, and of administrative arrangements necessitated thereby; and what was the corresponding total for the same period of 1971.
    Sir K. Joseph: As the answer contains a table of figures, I will with permission circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the strike subsidy has doubled since the passage last year of the Social Security Act which was supposed to curb this abuse? I am grateful to him for explaining earlier that the strike subsidy will be payable to those who defy the law of the land. Is my right hon. Friend really telling the House that a strike subsidy of perhaps £9 million this year and between £12 and £15 million next year is an acceptable price to pay for the acquiescence of the TUC in the resumption of the tripartite talks?
    Sir K. Joseph: My hon. Friend is leaping to conclusions and extrapolating figures in a way which not even he could justify. Unless we change the law—and I have explained to the House that there are severe social and industrial relations implications in changing the law—the results will be as they are now. I hope that my hon. Friend is entirely and wildly wrong in the level of strikes he is presuming.
    Mr. James Hamilton: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that many people who are not directly involved in strikes have to seek social security assistance? Is he aware that employers are subsidised by the CBI, whereas workers have to strike for a living wage? Will he make it clear that in no circumstances will he attempt to starve workers back to employment?
    Sir K. Joseph: I have respect for the hon. Gentleman, but it would need almost a university thesis to unravel the illusions and mistakes in his supplementary question.
    Mr. Redmond: Whilst no one wants to deny benefits to the families of men who are forced to go on strike against their will by the Mafia—[Laughter.]—does not my right hon. Friend agree that this matter is extremely urgent and that the country wants action? [Interruption.]
    Sir K. Joseph: In spite of all the derision from the Opposition, my hon. Friend is quite right. Some people are intimidated into striking. I can only assure my hon. Friend that we are trying to resolve this difficult matter as soon as possible.
    Mr. O'Malley: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he is inciting the foolish, inaccurate and inflammatory remarks of his hon. Friends by describing the receipt of supplementary benefit by women and children as an abuse? As the cost of supplementary benefit to strikers has increased as a result of the large number of days lost through strikes under the Conservative Government, would it not be helpful for the Secretary of State to explain to his hon. Friends that the best way of cutting the cost of supplementary benefit to strikers' dependants would be by changing the whole basis of the Government's

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    industrial relations policy which they so vehemently defend?
    Sir K. Joseph: The hon. Gentleman should not get so excited. I have never accused the wives and children of strikers a abusing the supplementary benefit system.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.
    Following is the information:

    PAYMENTS OF SUPPLEMENTARY BENEFIT TO CLAIMANTS INVOLVED IN TRADE DISPUTES PAYMENTS MADE BETWEEN JANUARY AND OCTOBER, 1971 AND 1972

    1971

    1972

    For strikers' dependants

    £4·1 million

    £7·5 million

    For strikers

    £5,000

    £173,000

    Following resumption of work

    £523,000

    £892,000*

    * Since 3rd April, 1972 these payments have been recoverable and £232,000 is being recovered.

    Thalidomide Children
    Mr. Meacherasked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will make a statement on the assistance being given to the families of thalidomide children.
    Mrs. Castleasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what assistance is now being given to the families of thalidomide children.
    Mr. Ashleyasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what action he is taking to ensure the welfare of thalidomide children; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Edward Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he is satisfied with the degree of assistance being given to families of thalidomide children; and if he will make a statement.
    Sir K. Joseph: As far as I am aware, these children are receiving all the help from my Department for which their parents have applied and to which their situation entitles them whether in cash or kind.
    Mr. Meacher: Does the Secretary of State acknowledge that, casting aside all the legalisms of this case, he has an unavoidable moral responsibility to these
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    children and that until he discharges it the sympathy expressed in the Prime Minister's letter published today will otherwise appear the cheapest complacency? Therefore, will not the Secretary of State carefully reconsider the setting up of a national fund for immediate and much fuller financial provision for these children before the time for their benefiting is altogether lost?
    Sir K. Joseph: I am not aware of any case where the children or their families are being denied benefit to which they are entitled. The wider question which the hon. Gentleman raises trenches upon Questions to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister later this afternoon.
    Mrs. Castle: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that he is discharging that special moral responsibility to which my hon. Friend has referred? Will he not at the very least call a conference of all the Departments concerned to ensure that these unhappy children are getting the housing facilities, the training facilities, the transport, the personal attendance and all the other things they need? Will he also, in keeping with the Petition just presented by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley), amend his Social Security Bill to ensure that all severely disabled children and young adults have an adequate income as of right for life even though they cannot be eligible for an invalidity benefit?
    Sir K. Joseph: I doubt whether it helps very much to deal in generalities with the individual needs of the children and households concerned. I introduced my answer with the words "As far as I am aware". Without raising the hopes of any particular household, I will always be very interested to receive information about failures in the medical or training or other services to which these households may be entitled, but I am not sure that a conference such as the right hon. Lady suggests would advance the human purposes which she has in mind.
    Mr. Taylor: Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is concern about the fairness and effectiveness of our legal procedures when the claims of these young children after about 10 years are still unresolved? Although it would be wrong to allocate blame to either party without knowledge of the full facts, in view of my right hon. Friend's sympathy for the

    193
    problem of these children will he at least offer the good services of himself and his Department to bring the parties together, if possible, and perhaps act as an arbiter in this problem?
    Sir K. Joseph: There is a case before the courts and I must be very careful in what I say. I do not think I am called upon to take any action such as my hon. Friend, with the best of intentions, suggests.
    Mr. Ashley: The Secretary of State has gone to great lengths to meet and make contact with all kinds of disabled people, and disabled people warmly appreciate this. I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's desire to avoid entanglement in the legal process, but as the thalidomide children face special problems will he meet the parents and the children to assess their problems and evaluate what further can be done, and ask the Prime Minister for a commitment that there should be a complete rethink of all the problems raised by hon. Members on both sides of the House?
    Sir K. Joseph: I think I have shown that I am always willing to meet individuals or their families where some good might come out of the meeting, but I do not want to raise hopes of general solutions from my Department when they might not be justified.
    Mr. Astor: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that modern technological developments can often make life more constructive and more independent for even the most severely handicapped people? Might not this be a justification for a national fund which could provide this expensive equipment where necessary?
    Sir K. Joseph: I believe that in the case of these children great ingenuity and efforts have been made by all the professions and services that can help them. I am not aware of any restriction of medical and prosthetic help on financial grounds.
    Mr. Alfred Morris: The Secretary of State has spoken about his departmental responsibilities. Will he join hon. Members on both sides of the House in telling the Distillers Company that it must now quickly face up to its moral responsibilities in affording these children the just
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    and honourable compensation which is well within the company's means?
    Sir K. Joseph: The hon. Member with great sincerity is begging a number of questions. I cannot respond in the way he wishes. There is a case before the courts, and the issue he raises must be left to that.
    Mr. Marten: Following up the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward Taylor), if there is evidence that some of these children are being deprived because of the delay in the settlement of the legal action would the Government consider—I do not want an answer immediately—whether there could be an interim advance of the possible damages, which could help these people until such time as the damages are awarded and then the advance could be deducted?
    Sir K. Joseph: That goes beyond the Questions and beyond my departmental responsibility. I say again that if any such household believes that it is not getting the full range of services for which I am responsible, I am eager to hear of the deficiencies so that I can try to put matters right.

    Scientology
    Mr. John Hallasked the Secretary of State for Social Services if, following the Foster Report on Scientology, he has now completed on consultations with the relevant professional associations; and if he will make a statement.
    Sir K. Joseph: I am considering the replies from the professional associations which I consulted and shall announce the Government's decision on the report's recommendations in due course.
    Mr. Hall: I hope my right hon. Friend will forgive my saying that that is not unlike answers I have had before. It is now nearly three years since the investigation into the scientologists was initiated and 11 months since my right hon. Friend told the House that he was conducting consultations with the members of the profession. I hold no brief for the scientologists, but in fairness should they not be told whether they can operate in this country and in what conditions?
    Sir K. Joseph: I have had to consider the comments received from the professional organisations I consulted and from a number of other bodies and individuals. I must have time to arrive at the right decision on this mass of material.
    Mr. Hamling: Will the Secretary of State bear in mind how urgent the matter is, remembering that foreign scientologists who wish to come to this country and who have no criminal record and who are not criminals have been barred from coming here because of the dilatoriness of this inquiry?
    Sir K. Joseph: Yes, but the hon. Gentleman would surely prefer a right decision to a speedy one.

    Disabled Persons (Income)
    Mr. John Smithasked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he has given further consideration to the proposal that there should be a national income scheme for the disabled.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Paul Dean): Yes, Sir. We have already made important advances in this field but we have no further proposals in mind at present.
    Mr. Smith: In view of the disappointment that many of the disabled have felt over the provisions of the Bill which the Minister's Department is laying before the House, would the Government be willing to examine seriously the proposition that there should be an incomes scheme for the civilian disabled roughly on the lines of that available to those disabled through military service or industrial accident?
    Mr. Dean: My right hon. Friend has always said that the Bill is not the last word. Substantial progress in filling the very serious gaps for the civilian disabled has been made during the last two and a half years. There are now 400,000 people getting the invalidity pensions and allowances which were not available before. There are over 80,000 people getting the attendance allowance, the second phase of which is to start shortly.
    Mr. Brewis: Does my hon. Friend accept that there are still many anomalies such as the disabled spinster who cannot get a housekeeper allowance? Will my
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    hon. Friend see whether some of these anomalies can be put right?
    Mr. Dean: I accept what my hon. Friend says; of course there are anomalies and there are gaps to be filled. It is for this reason that the Government are anxious to make progress.
    Mr. Molloyasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what discussions are contemplated with the Disablement Income Group concerning proposals submitted to him.
    Sir K. Joseph: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and I hope to meet representatives of the Disablement Income Group shortly.
    Mr. Molloy: I am grateful for that reply. Would the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that one of the fundamental features put to him by the Disablement Income Group is that the group believes, and I think that the majority of the people of this country believe, that a disabled housewife should have an income in her own right? Should not the right hon. Gentleman therefore, and perhaps the Prime Minister, make every effort to overcome their own administrative impediments and write this into the measure which he will shortly put before the House?
    Sir K. Joseph: Yes, I think it is common ground that this is a group for which the Government would like, when we find the right way and have the resources, to do something, but I must warn the hon. Gentleman and the House that there is no proposal in sight which will satisfactorily meet the difficulties of the moment.
    Mr. Gurden: Has my right hon. Friend any up-to-date figures of the total number of disabled people?
    Sir K. Joseph: We have the Amelia Harris Report for the OPCS last year, which gives a figure of 3 million for the disabled including those with mild disability, and 1 million very severely, severely and appreciably disabled. So the figure which corresponds with the national impression of disability is probably 1 million in total.
    Mr. Alfred Morris: The Under-Secretary of State said that the Bill may not be the last word. Does the right hon.

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    Gentleman accept the extreme urgency of this matter? In his meeting with the Disablement Income Group will he sympathetically consider amendments that would meet the DIG's viewpoint?
    Sir K. Joseph: Of course, one will want to consider whatever the Disablement Income Group says to the Prime Minister and to me, but, as my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary has just said, a very sizeable extension of cash benefits for the disabled is now in hand, not only the first phase of the attendance allowance but the remaining phases now coming into payment, as well as the invalidity package. I think that is all evidence that we want to get on as fast as we can.

    Paraquat Poisoning
    Mr. Robert Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many people have died from Paraquat poisoning since this product has been marketed; and if he will make a statement.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Michael Alison): Since this product was marketed in 1962 there have been 30 deaths in England and Wales where Paraquat or one of the products containing it was mentioned on the death certificate. Of these 10 are known to have been accidental. I will circulate detailed figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the patent for Paraquat expires soon and that if, as seems likely, it is

    Total Persons

    Suicide

    Accidental

    Open Verdicts

    Male

    Female

    Male

    Female

    Male

    Female

    1966

    …

    …

    …

    1

    —

    —

    —

    1

    —

    —

    1967

    …

    …

    …

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    —

    1968

    …

    …

    …

    4

    1

    2

    —

    1

    —

    —

    1969

    …

    …

    …

    11

    6

    1

    1

    1

    1

    1

    1970

    …

    …

    …

    3

    1

    —

    1

    1

    —

    —

    1971

    …

    …

    …

    11

    4

    1

    2

    2

    2

    —

    Total Persons

    …

    30

    16

    10

    4

    Attendance Allowance
    Mr. Dormandasked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will now bring forward the starting date for the new partial/constant attendance
    not extended, any company will then be free to produce this dangerous substance? In view of the figures which the hon. Gentleman has just announced, which incidentally are much lower than those quoted in a magazine article last week, what contingency plans has he to control the situation?
    Mr. Alison: I think the magazine article the hon. Gentleman refers to probably contains figures of the world incidence of deaths rather than the figures for England and Wales. If the ICI patent is not extended, manufacturers who manufacture Paraquat in its most lethal—that is to say, concentrated—form will be subject to the limitations already imposed on its general sale.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the present limitations imposed are effective? Does he not realise that a death occurred at Evesham, Worcestershire, a matter of a couple of years ago when concentrated Paraquat was consumed from a Coca Cola bottle, which is a common occurrence and has been the cause of death on many occasions, and that the reply of the appropriate Government Department was that the labelling of this substance was already adequate?
    Mr. Alison: The labels on the concentrate already carry the message
    "Do not put in soft drink bottles."
    and
    "Keep away from children."
    In addition we are seeking ways of making the liquid itself so obnoxious to smell and taste that the taking of it would be repulsive.
    Following are the figures:
    allowance; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Dean: The attendance allowance is being extended in four phases, by age groups, to provide a lower rate allowance for about 250,000 severely disabled

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    people who need help by day or at night. An order has now been laid which enables claims to be invited from the first age group, people born in any of the years 1908 to 1956, in readiness for payment from 4th June, 1973.
    Mr. Dormand: Is the Minister aware of the continuing widespread dissatisfaction at decisions being taken on constant attendance allowance? I pay tribute to the officers who have to cope with the difficulties inherent in any new scheme, but would not the Minister agree that the best way of meeting the dissatisfaction would be to widen the scheme at an early date in order that those people who are now considered to be marginal cases and who eventually no doubt will be brought into the scheme may be brought in? Would he not agree that this is the best way to tackle it, and to tackle it early?
    Mr. Dean: I am grateful for the tribute which the hon. Member paid to the staff in mounting this massive operation in a very short period of time. It is because there have been hard cases that the Government are extremely anxious to extend the allowance as quickly as possible, but each case has to be looked at individually, sympathetically and thoroughly, and it is for this reason that phasing is necessary. Perhaps I can tell the hon. Member that the publicity will start next week for the next phase of the allowance, and also letters will go out at that time to general practitioners, directors of social services and to the voluntary organisations which are most interested in this problem.
    Mr. Fry: Is my hon. Friend aware that there is considerable criticism of the appeal procedure for constant attendance allowance? Will he undertake to look into this further?
    Mr. Dean: Yes, certainly. We are learning from experience of this. It is a new allowance. The review procedure which exists is, however, a highly flexible way in which cases can be looked at a second and, if necessary, a third time.
    Mr. Leadbitter: Any progress which the Minister makes in this direction is always appreciated in the House and in the country, but would he indicate to the House the degree of dissatisfaction about the phasing? Are age groups the best
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    method? Has every other form of classification been examined for the purpose? Is phasing really necessary?
    Mr. Dean: Yes, we have looked at this extremely carefully and have, of course, sought advice from the Attendance Allowance Board. Our judgment on that advice was that phasing was necessary and that by age groups was the most practical way in which it could be done.

    Retirement Pensions
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will increase retirement pensions to £10 for a single person and £16 for a married couple.
    Sir K. Joseph: No, Sir. An increase of this order would cost £2,000 million a year if other benefits were revised proportionately. It would impose a heavy burden on contributors and taxpayers and would inevitably be reflected by increases in prices.
    Mr. Skinner: The Minister knows that part of that would be clawed back as a result of not having to pay out social security supplementary benefits. If the old-age pensioners are doing as well as the Government claim, why are they demonstrating next Wednesday? Will the Minister go further and explain this to them? Will he meet a deputation from them next Wednesday and explain why the Prime Minister can have more spent on one meal at the Guildhall twice in one week than these people have to live on in a full week?
    Sir K. Joseph: I think the figure I gave is net—after the saving of supplementary benefit. I do not think Ministers are claiming that pensioners are all well off by any manner of means. What we are claiming is that the increase last month was significantly more than was necessary to restore buying power. Certainly I am willing to meet the pensioners. I met a deputation of them only two weeks ago. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister accepted hospitality at the Mansion House or Guildhall and did not himself give it.
    Sir B. Rhys Williams: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the effect of the Social Security Bill which he has brought before the House will be at least, with the passage of time, to achieve the figures the hon. Member is asking for? But

    201
    is it not also true that pensioners with no other income and facing high rents are well on the way to these figures already as a result of the Housing Finance Act?
    Sir K. Joseph: Yes, I think my hon. Friend is quite right in pointing out that with the Supplementary Benefits Commission's payments of rent on the one hand and the rent allowance introduced by the Housing Finance Act for those not on supplementary benefit on the other hand, this is by no means the only help given to pensioners.
    Mr. O'Malley: Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that pensioners should be given a degree of priority in the circumstances of 1972? Secondly, does not the Housing Finance Act condemn millions of pensioners to dependence on means-tested supplementary benefits way into the twenty-first century? Thirdly, as the Government have felt able to give priority to substantial tax handouts to the better-off, will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the definitive "No" he has given in reply to the Question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner)?
    Sir K. Joseph: I am sure that the hon. Member for Bolsover put much the same question with much the same pressure to his own Front Bench when Labour was in Government. The humbug from the hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. O'Malley) is pernicious, bearing in mind the thoroughly mean uprating granted by the Labour Government in 1967 and 1969.

    Old-age Pensioners
    Mr. Thomas Coxasked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he proposes to meet representatives of the National Federation of Old Age Pensions Associations.
    Sir K. Joseph: I met representatives of the National Federation of Old Age Pensions Associations on 25th October this year.
    Mr. Cox: The right hon. Gentleman is, therefore, in no doubt about the deep concern which retired people are expressing. In view of the statements made at each party conference in October, is it not time that this House had the guts to
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    show the country that if we want a recent standard of living for our retired people we must pay for it? Does not the right hon. gentleman realise that until we tie retirement pensions to the average weekly wage, the standard of living of retired people will diminish month by month? Is this what Parliament wants? If it is not, let us have the courage to say so and campaign for adequate pensions for retired people.
    Sir K. Joseph: The members of the delegation I met put the pensioners' views vigorously and forcefully, as they always do, but they expressed appreciation of the Government's initiative in bringing in an annual uprating. Had they known of it, I think they would also have welcomed the £10 for a single pensioner and the £20 for a married couple that is to be paid next month.
    Mr. McCrindle: In view of the now established precedent of paying the £10 bonus within a few weeks of announcing it, will my right hon. Friend consider the possibility of further such payments without prejudice to the annual review, and will he draw this point to the attention of the pensioners' representatives when he meets them?
    Sir K. Joseph: I suspect that my hon. Friend has his tongue slightly in his cheek, as he knows perfectly well that this is a special one-off operation, with the help of the Post Office, and that it takes no account of the personal situation of each beneficiary, as has to be done in upratings.
    Mr. Harold Walker: Will the right hon. Gentleman assure pensioners that the £10 bonus will be paid directly and personally to each pensioner, including those who live in local authority homes, hospitals and other institutions whose normal practice is to retain the pension apart from a small amount of pocket money?
    Sir K. Joseph: I am nervous of giving a wrong impression by a quick answer. The hon. Gentleman should wait until the Bill is introduced.

    Prescription and Dental Charges
    Mrs. Sally Oppenheimasked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will seek powers to afford automatic entitlement to exemption from, or help

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    with, prescription and dental charges to those in receipt of invalidity allowance, in the same way as those receiving supplementary pension, supplementary allowance and family income supplement are so entitled.
    Mr. Alison: No, Sir. Anyone whose income is, by supplementary benefit standards, insufficient to enable him to afford these charges is already entitled to exemption or help.
    Mrs. Oppenheim: Does not my hon. Friend agree that the prescription needs of those who are in receipt of invalidity allowances are usually greater than those of other people? Would not automatic entitlement deal with this problem, and also with the anomalous situation of the wife of a severely disabled husband who has to go out to work to earn her own support and whose earnings disqualify the husband from exemption from prescription charges?
    Mr. Alison: As my hon. Friend knows, the invalidity benefit is an insurance payment and is therefore in no sense geared to the financial needs of the recipient. In reply to the second part of the supplementary question, my hon. Friend probably knows that the supplementary benefit level can be exceeded quite substantially in assessing needs where dental problems arise.
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: Is the Minister aware that every police officer and every Army, Navy and Air Force officer from the highest to the lowest paid is entitled to these benefits? Surely people in receipt of an invalidity allowance should be entitled to equal treatment?
    Mr. Alison: I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that Army, Navy and Air Force officers have such financial needs, which is the implication of his supplementary question.
    Mr. Lewis: No. I am merely saying that they get these benefits.
    Mr. Alison: The point is that every person in financial need gets considerable help, particularly with dental treatment, although his income may be quite substantially above supplementary benefit level.
    Mr. Marks: Will the Minister reconsider his refusal to exempt from prescrip-
    204
    tion charges children who are now kept on at school compulsorily until they are 16? Some of the families of these children are suffering hardship and it would be of great help if the exemption were to be tied to the school leaving age as it has been previously.
    Mr. Alison: I will certainly look into the implications of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question.

    Physiotherapists
    Mr. Gurdenasked the Secretary of State for Social Services on what date the next meeting of the Whitley Council to discuss the pay of physiotherapists will take place.
    Mr. Alison: No date has been fixed.
    Mr. Gurden: Is my hon. Friend aware that there are rumours that his Department has deliberately delayed the meeting to settle these matters? Can he deny that rumour?
    Mr. Alison: I deny it with confidence.
    Mr. Carter-Jones: Will the Minister please repeat his denial in public, because the physiotherapists do not believe this? Is he aware that they believe the Government are deliberately holding up their award? Is he further aware that the shortage of these people is extremely severe and that those who are anxious to see this type of service extended to domiciliary services believe that not enough action is being taken to recruit more people into this highly desired profession?
    Mr. Alison: I confirm that we are not trying to delay anything. The hon. Gentleman refers to shortages, and I would tell him that I answered a Question on this matter the other day. We dispute the allegation that there are any shortages in this respect.
    Dr. Summerskill: What is the hon. Gentleman doing to speed up the decision by the Whitley Council? Detailed proposals were sent to the management side of the council two years ago, and I understand that only one meeting has so far been held this year.
    Mr. Alison: The Whitley Council proceedings are going on as rapidly as practical problems will permit.

    Hospital Waiting Lists (North Staffordshire)
    Mr. Goldingasked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many persons are awaiting for admission to the North Staffordshire hospitals.
    Mr. Alison: A total of 4,623 on 30th June, 1972.
    Mr. Golding: Will the hon. Gentleman say what steps he is taking to reduce this totally unacceptable waiting list? Furthermore, will he state how many people there are on that waiting list who would have been treated earlier had they been able and willing to pay for treatment?
    Mr. Alison: I cannot answer the last part of the supplementary question, which is hypothetical and speculative. We have so far spent £6 million in capital investment in respect of capital developments in North Staffordshire and a major district general hospital has been developed by the North Staffordshire Hospital Centre at Stoke-on-Trent. In fact, the number on the waiting list has decreased by 10 per cent. since 30th June, 1971.
    Mrs. Knight: Will my hon. Friend also recognise the concern which exists about out-patient appointments? May I tell him that in the Midlands one recent appointment which was applied for on 28th June was not available before 13th January? Will he accept that this is a long time and try to do something about the situation?
    Mr. Alison: That is another question, but I will look at the figure my hon. Friend quoted.
    Mr. Leslie Huckfield: Will the hon. Gentleman accept that one of the main reasons for the very long waiting list in North Staffordshire is the fact that a veritable private wing operates in the North Staffordshire Hospital Centre? Is this not yet another example of the massive abuse of private practice under the Birmingham Regional Hospital Board, and why does not this prompt the Minister to make an inquiry into the board's activities?
    Mr. Alison: Private practice has nothing to do with the problems of the waiting list.

    General Medical Council
    Dr. Summerskillasked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he expects to complete his discussions with the General Medical Council and the British Medical Association concerning the functions of the General Medical Council; and whether he will make a statement.
    Sir K. Joseph: I have not been represented in the discussions between these two bodies, though I have kept in close touch with them. I am keeping the situation under careful review and I understand that there is to be a further meeting of the British Medical Association Council tomorrow.
    Dr. Summerskill: Does not the Secretary of State agree that in this matter he appears to be putting his telescope to his blind eye? What has been an internal domestic dispute among doctors now threatens to erupt into a crisis affecting the National Health Service. Will he immediately set up an independent inquiry into the functions and finances of the General Medical Council? Furthermore, will he publish without delay the Medical Bill which sets out to reform the constitution of the GMC, and will he' reverse his previous advice to that council and recommend it to postpone the erasure of doctors from the register?
    Sir K. Joseph: I agree that this is a very important issue, but hearing in mind my responsibilities to the public, I must give the medical profession as much time as is practicable to regulate its own affairs.
    Dr. Trafford: Would my right hon. Friend agree that, irrespective of the merits of this dispute, a promise or undertaking by him to look into this matter would probably solve at least three-quarters of the problem and remove any possibility of threat to the National Health Service?
    Sir K. Joseph: I shall bear in mind my hon. Friend's judgment.
    Dr. Miller: In the meantime will the Secretary of State take steps to protect not only members of the medical profession but also members of the public, both in National Health Service hospitals and receiving treatment in general practice

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    under the National Health Service, who are being affected by this arbitrary, authoritarian and dictatorial attitude of the General Medical Council?
    Sir K. Joseph: They are not being affected but, since they might be, my prime interest is to see that they are not damaged.

  MACHINERY OF GOVERNMENT (COMMITTEE)
  Mr. Dalyellasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the decision to terminate the work of the committee under Sir Richard Meyjes, which was examining and making recommendations on the machinery of government in Whitehall; and what steps he is taking to find a successor to Sir Richard Meyjes.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Edward Heath): The original business team, under Sir Richard Meyjes, was set up with the objective of having the organisation of government reviewed by businessmen with experience of commercial and industrial management. The work has now been successfully completed and the members have returned to their parent companies or to other appointments. It is not necessary to set up another team at the centre but a number of businessmen have been appointed to senior posts in Departments.
  Mr. Dalyell: The Property Services Agency apart, what has Meyjes achieved in Whitehall?
  The Prime Minister: I thought the hon. Gentleman might have referred to "Sir Richard Meyjes and his team". What Sir Richard has done, along with his colleagues, is to undertake a complete review of the organisation of government. Apart from the Property Services Agency, they have also been responsible for the establishment of the Procurement Executive and he chaired the committee which undertook a review of the Public Trustee Office and many other aspects of government. In fact, they have well proved their worth. They have worked for a period of two years and have now returned to their firms.
  Mr. Wilkinson: Will my right hon. Friend agree that the establishment of
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  the Procurement Agency in terms of defence has been one of the most exciting reforms since the Second World War, since it brings the user and the supplier into a closer relationship and provides the streamlining of operations which is long overdue?
  The Prime Minister: I believe that it has brought about a great improvement in the machinery of government and also has saved the taxpayer money. In addition, the team were responsible for the introduction of programme analysis and review throughout the whole of the government machine. This in itself is a major objective achieved.
  Mr. Thorpe: Did Sir Richard recommend that Mr. Cecil King had any particular rôle to play?
  The Prime Minister: It has never been mentioned to me, but I have not yet had time to turn up the index to see whether his name appears there.

  MUSEUMS AND GALLERIES (ADMISSION CHARGES)
  Mr. Guy Barnettasked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied with coordination between the Scottish Office, the Northern Ireland Office and the Department of Education and Science over the scheme to administer charges for admission to national museums and galleries; and if he will make a statement.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Barnett: Is the Prime Minister aware of the deep hostility aroused in all parts of the House by the imposition of museum and gallery charges? Is he also aware of the fact that this is of no advantage to Britain whatever? Since we are given to understand that the charges are being delayed during the 90-day freeze, will the right hon. Gentleman please take this opportunity to reconsider the whole policy with a view to not bringing in these charges?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir; I am afraid I cannot accept that conclusion. It is right that they should be delayed during the standstill, but this does not affect the matter of principle. It is an interesting point that this year attendances at museums and historic places at

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  which charges are in force have risen at a faster rate than at museums which are free.
  Mr. Faulds: Does not the Prime Minister realise that he has a marvellous opportunity to display his real concern for the arts—a concern which I believe he has—by dropping this universally-disliked piece of legislation and at the same time to set a good example to some of the less enlightened European museum authorities—or does he intend to wait until I have to do the job?
  The Prime Minister: If I were to wait that long, it would never be done! I would point out that the present Government have done more to help the arts than any other Government previously. I believe that this is not a matter of a reactionary approach by European galleries; it is a characteristic throughout the whole of Western Europe. I find it difficult to understand the argument that there should be no charges. When we know of the enormous success of the Tutankhamun exhibition at the British Museum, which has been attended by over one million people at a standard charge of 50p and when we also know that a large number of hon. Members are now waiting to visit that exhibition privately at a cost of £1 per head.
  Sir J. Rodgers: Does my right hon. Friend realise that the whole country is behind him in his view about museum charges—[Interruption.] Certainly everyone who cares about these matters is. To say that the French, Germans or Americans do not care about the arts because they charge for admission to their museums is proof positive that we are wrong in trying to pretend that admission should be free. But let us ensure that students and old-age pensioners get in free.
  The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend, and special arrangements are made. With regard to the other branches of the arts, musicians always pay. Sometimes as students they pay half the normal charge for concerts. I learned all my orchestral music by going to the Proms and paying two shillings a night, and I appreciated that infinitely more than if I had been allowed in for nothing.
  Mr. Strauss: Is the Prime Minister aware that there has been a substantial drop in the number of visitors to the National Gallery and other national museums this summer because of the general belief that the charge was already in operation? That was evidenced by the fact that when the National Gallery advertised that admission to the museum was still free, instead of a drop there was a big increase in the number of visitors? Does the Prime Minister appreciate, when he is putting this policy into effect, that what was not realised when the Bill was first introduced was that, out of the £1 million to be raised as a result of charges, £150,000 would come from children whose museum-going habits were bound to be impeded and that not a penny of their money or of that subscribed by anyone else would help a single museum or gallery?
  The Prime Minister: I quite appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's concern for the arts, which is deep and well known. But I differ from him in his conclusions. I have heard what is alleged to have happened at the National Gallery. I have given examples of what has happened elsewhere this year when charges have been in force. The fact that people are prepared to pay to see special exhibitions shows that they are quite prepared to pay a reasonable sum to go to galleries. I also know that since the introduction of these charges those who are trustees and others responsible for museums and galleries have done a good deal more thinking about how to make them attractive and their displays modern and acceptable than ever before.

  THALIDOMIDE CHILDREN
  Mr. Carter-Jonesasked the Prime Minister if he is satisfied with co-ordination between the Departments of Health and Social Security, Education and Science, Environment, Treasury and Employment in resolving the problems of thalidomide children and their families: and if he will make a statement.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. Government, local authorities and the National Health Service co-operate in providing a wide range of services to try to meet the medical, educational and

  211
  welfare needs of these children and their families.
  Mr. Carter-Jones: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that answer. Is he aware, however, that from the point of view of educational and employment prospects much of the money has come from charities and not from Government sources? That is not to decry the efforts of Government agencies. However, if these children have to wait for a legal decision they may be beyond the school-leaving age. Should not arrangements be made now for them to receive their education? In the absence of an offer by the Distillers Company in the moral sense, does the Prime Minister realise that he will have the support of the whole House if he and the Government go it alone in giving massive support to these people now before it is too late?
  The Prime Minister: Governments of both parties have done their utmost to meet the needs of these children at the different stages of their growth. If the hon. Gentleman wishes me to, I can set out in the OFFICIAL REPORT the many spheres of activity which this covers. In terms of education, it is true that much has been done by the special bodies formed to help these children, and quite rightly. At the same time, Governments have helped either in special day schools or boarding schools for the physically handicapped, with transport to and from schools and with special equipment for them at schools which they can use afterwards. The cost of this education is comparatively high. That is as it should be to meet the needs of these children. If the hon. Gentleman has other specific needs in mind that he feels should be met I shall gladly have them considered.
  Sir R. Cary: Is there any way in which the legal talks between the Distillers Company and the parents can be expedited?
  The Prime Minister: This is a matter for the legal advisers of the two sides. I do not believe that it is right for the Government to interfere in a legal action of this kind. Everyone will hope that the matter can be settled at the earliest moment.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: Having studied the right hon. Gentleman's letter to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-
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  Trent, South (Mr. Ashley), may I ask him whether he is aware—if not will he take note—that the Opposition intend to table an official Motion on the lines of Early Day Motion No. 8 in the name of my hon. Friend and other hon. Members on both sides of the House, and that we shall expect an early debate on the issues raised in that Motion?
  The Prime Minister: I am fully prepared to take note of that. I was hoping that this would not become a party political issue in the House. It is a matter in which Governments of both parties have done their best to meet the real needs of these children at their different stages of growth. I believe that we have done more than the Labour Government did in that we have provided more financial resources.
  The legal matters are not matters for any Government. They were not matters for the Labour Government. They are matters for the parties concerned in the action.
  I was asked to consider the possibility of setting up a foundation to provide financial resources. But it was a foundation to bridge any gap between the result of any legal arrangement and what it was felt these children needed. Therefore it is right that we should await the outcome of legal arrangements before coming to a firm conclusion about the needs of these children which still require to be met.
  Mr. Ashley: Quite wrong.
  Mr. Fowler: While accepting what my right hon. Friend has said, may I ask whether this case does not show the serious inadequacy of the present law of compensation? Is there not an overwhelming case for the setting-up of an immediate and urgent review of the law here?
  The Prime Minister: The Robens Committee on Safety and Health at Work commented on this matter and the Law Commission has been working on a study of the law of damages. The Government are now giving full consideration to this aspect of the report of the Robens Committee as a matter of urgency.
  Mr. Ashley: The Prime Minister said in his letter that it was premature to establish any fund before a legal decision was reached. However, is he aware that

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  if he waits for the crafty lawyers of the Distillers to end their work, the matter may drag on for another 10 years, because they must look after the interests of their clients, and that if the right hon. Gentleman waits for the Distillers the matter may drag on for another decade, since they must serve their shareholders? Is not it the right hon. Gentleman's responsibility to establish this fund now without prejudice to the legal negotiations and to take a leaf from the book of his distinguished predecessor by calling for "action this day" on the setting up of a special fund?
  The Prime Minister: I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's view. I am sorry that he has made comments in such an extreme form about the letter which I wrote to him. It was a letter written in good faith trying to help these children. I think that everyone appreciates the tragedy of these children. The hon. Gentleman said that this should be done without prejudice. However, it is not possible for the Government to set up a foundation without prejudice to a legal settlement. It is just not possible to do that. I believe that I have taken the proper view, which is that when a legal settlement is reached—and I am not associating myself with what the hon. Gentleman said about the responsibilities of the parties concerned—the Government can see what is required on the financial side as compensation for this tragedy. I have already offered to investigate any case of real need or of requirements of any kind brought to my notice, if they are not being met by Government bodies at the moment. I think that that is the proper attitude to take with regard to the setting up of a foundation.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: Taking up the right hon. Gentleman's point about not wishing this matter to become a party issue—the Motion to which I have referred has been signed by members of all parties—nevertheless is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that while both Governments, his own and ours, tried and are trying to help in those matters, both of us hoped that they would be settled between the parties much earlier than this?
  The right hon. Gentleman uses the phrase "these children". With the present state of the law's delay, is there not every
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  likelihood that they will be grown up before there is a settlement?
  The Prime Minister: Obviously the whole House hopes that that will not be the case. Neither is there any evidence that that will be the case. I should have thought that public opinion was clearly that this matter ought to be settled at the earliest opportunity and that proper provision should be made for these children.
  Mrs. Castle: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that while he is being so nice about not bringing pressure to bear on the Distillers while the legal talks are going on, pressure is being brought to bear upon the parents all the time to accept a settlement which they believe is unjust? Is he aware that some parents have been threatened with the withdrawal of legal aid unless they accept the settlement, that six families have been taken to court by their former solicitors because they refused to sign, and that the Distillers Company, in a letter to one of its shareholders, which I have in my hand, has threatened to withdraw the offer if there is a breakdown of these talks? In other words, the Distillers Company is using every legal device known to man to suppress these facts. Will the Prime Minister become the champion of these unfortunate children?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think that the right hon. Lady, with her experience in Government, would expect the Government to interfere on either one side or the other and to bring pressure of the kind of which she complains. The Government, as far as they possibly can, are prepared to meet the needs of these children, and I repeat my offer to look at any specific case. If there is any matter for which the right hon. Lady feels the Government have a responsibility in the correspondence which she has in which there is a grievance against the exercise of the law—she referred to people being refused legal aid as a threat— obviously I would investigate that as well.

  WELSH AFFAIRS
  Ordered,
  That the matter of National Health Service reorganisation in Wales, being a matter relating exclusively to Wales and Monmouthshire, be referred to the Welsh Grand Committee for their consideration.—[Mr. Prior.]

COUNTER-INFLATION (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL. (ALLOCATION OF TIME)
3.32 p.m.
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. James Prior): I beg to move,
That the following provisions shall apply to the further Proceedings on the Bill:—
Committee, Report, Third Reading and Consideration of Lords Amendment

1.—(1) The Proceedings in Committee shall be completed in three allotted days and shah he brought to a conclusion at the times shown in the following table:—

TABLE

Allotted day

Proceedings

Time for conclusion of proceedings

First day

Clause 1

11.00 p.m

Second day

Clause 2—Amendments before subsection (2)

7.00 p.m.

Clause 2—Amendments before subsection (4)

11.00 p.m

Third day

Remainder of Clause 2 and Clause 3

7.00 p.m.

Clause 4

9.00 p.m.

Remaining proceedings, in Committee

11.00 p.m.

(2) The Proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading of the Bill shall be completed in one allotted day and shall be brought to a conclusion on that day at Nine o'clock, in the case of Proceedings on Consideration, and Eleven o'clock, in the case of Proceedings on Third Reading; but if there are no Proceedings on Consideration of the Bill, Proceedings on Third Reading shall be brought to a conclusion at Six o'clock.

(3) The Proceedings on Consideration of Lords Amendments shall be completed in one allotted day and shall be brought to a conclusion at Five o'clock on that day.

2. Standing Order No. 43 (Business Committee) shall not apply to this Order so far as it relates to Proceedings in Committee, on Consideration or on Third Reading of the Bill

Proceedings on going into Committee

3. When the Order of the Day is read for the House to resolve itself into Committee on the Bill, Mr. Speaker shall leave the chair without putting any question, notwithstanding that notice of an Instruction has been given.

Order of Proceedings in Committee

4. No Motion shall he made to postpone any Clause, Schedule, new Clause or new Schedule.

Conclusion of Proceedings in Committee

5. On the conclusion of the Proceedings in Committee on the Bill the Chairman shall report the Bill to the House without putting any Question.

Dilatory Motions

6. No dilatory Motion with respect to, or in the course of, Proceedings on the Bill shall be made on an allotted day except by a Member of the Government, and the Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith.

Extra time on allotted days

7.—(1) On an allotted day paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 3 (Exempted business shall apply to the Proceedings on the Bill for one hour after Ten o'clock.

(2) Any period during which Proceedings on the Bill may be proceeded with after Ten o'clock under paragraph (7) of Standing Order No. 9 (Adjournment on specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration) shall be in addition to the period under this paragraph.

(3) If an allotted day is one to which a Motion for the adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 stands over from an earlier day, a period of time equal to the duration of the Proceedings upon that Motion shall be added to the period during which Proceedings on the Bill may be proceeded with after Ten o'clock under this paragraph, and the bringing to a conclusion of any Proceedings on the Bill which, under this Order, are to be brought to a conclusion on that day shall also be postponed for a period equal to the duration of the Proceedings on the Motion.

Standing Order No. 13

8. Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of public business) shall not apply on an allotted day.

Private Business

9. Any private business which has been set down for consideration at Seven o'clock on an allotted day shall, instead of being considered as provided by the Standing Orders, be considered at the conclusion of the Proceedings on the Bill on that day, and paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 3 (Exempted business) shall apply to the private business for a period of three hours from the conclusion of the Proceedings on the Bill, or, if those Proceedings are concluded before Ten o'clock, for a period equal to the time elapsing between Seven o'clock and the completion of those Proceedings.

This paragraph shall not apply to an allotted day on which Proceedings on Third Reading of the Bill are to be brought to a conclusion at Six o'clock or Proceedings on Consideration of Lords Amendments are to be brought to a conclusion at Five o'clock.

Conclusions of Proceedings

10.—(1) For the purpose of bringing to a conclusion any Proceedings which are to be brought to a conclusion at a time appointed by this Order and which have not previously been brought to a conclusion, the Chairman or Mr Speaker shall forthwith proceed to put the following Questions (but no others), that is to say—

(a) the Question or Questions already proposed from the Chair, or necessary to bring to a decision a Question so proposed (including, in the case of a new Clause or new Schedule which has been read a second time, the Question that the Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill);

(b) the Question on any amendment or Motion standing on the Order Paper in the name of any Member, if that amendment or Motion is moved by a Member of the Government;

(c) any other Question necessary for the disposal of business to be concluded; and on a Motion so moved for a new Clause or a new Schedule, the Chairman or Mr Speaker shall put only the Question that the Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill.

(2) Proceedings under sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph shall not be interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of the House.

(3) If, at Seven o'clock on an allotted day, any Proceedings on the Bill which, under this Order are to be brought to a conclusion at or before that time have not been concluded, any Motion for the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 (Adjournment on definite matter of urgent public importance) which, apart from this Order, would stand over to that time shall stand over until those Proceedings have been concluded.

(4) If a Motion for the adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 stands over to Seven o'clock on an allotted day, or to any later time under sub-paragraph (3) above, the bringing to a conclusion of any Proceedings on the Bill which, under this Order are to be brought to a conclusion on that day at any hour falling after the beginning of the Proceedings on that Motion shall be postponed for a period equal to the duration of the Proceedings on that Motion.

Supplemental orders

11.—(1) The Proceedings on any Motion moved in the House by a Member of the Government for varying or supplementing the provisions of this Order shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion one hour after they have been commenced, and the last foregoing paragraph shall apply as if the Proceedings were Proceedings on the Bill on an allotted day.

(2) If on an allotted day on which any Proceedings on the Bill are to be brought to a conclusion at a time appointed by this Order the House is adjourned, or the sitting is suspended, before that time no notice shall be required of a Motion moved at the next sitting by a Member of the Government for varying or supplementing the provisions of this Order.

Saving

12. Nothing in this Order shall—

(a) prevent any Proceedings to which the Order applies from being taken or completed earlier than is required by the Order, or

(b) prevent any business (whether on the Bill or not) from being proceeded with on any day after the completion of all such Proceedings on the Bill as are to be taken on that clay.

Re-committal

13.—(1) References in this Order to Proceedings on Consideration or Proceedings on Third Reading included references to Proceedings, at those stages respectively, for, on or in consequence of re-committal.

(2) On an allotted day no debate shall he permitted on any Motion to re-commit the Bill (whether as a whole or otherwise), and Mr Speaker shall put forthwith any Question necessary to dispose of the Motion including the Question on any amendment moved to the Question.

Interpretation

14. In this Order—

'allotted day' means any day (other than a Friday) on which the Bill is put down as the first Government Order of the Day provided that a Motion for allotting time to the Proceedings on the Bill to be taken on that day either has been agreed to on a previous day, or is set down for consideration on that day;

'the Bill' means the Counter-Inflation (Temporary Provisions) Bill.

I base my case for this timetable Motion upon the urgency of the Counter-Inflation (Temporary Provisions) Bill.
I think there would be general acceptance that there are occasions on which a timetable Motion is both appropriate and necessary. Sometimes there is such general agreement on both sides of the House that it is in the interest of the House and the nation that a time limit should be set for debate on a particular measure that a voluntary timetable can be agreed upon. On other occasions, for reasons which the whole House will entirely understand, it is not possible for the Opposition to agree to a voluntary timetable, and it may then become necessary for the Government of the day to propose a timetable Motion to the House.
I think that there would be general agreement that such a procedure is sometimes needed. Equally, all hon. Members on both sides of the House would rightly expect the Leader of the House to weigh with the utmost care the claims of his ministerial colleagues as to the urgency of the Government business in question against the risk of any erosion of Parliament's right and duty to give itself adequate time to scrutinise the proposals of the Executive. I assure the House that I regard it as my most important responsibility to safeguard the rights of proper debate and that I should commend a timetable Motion to the House only if I were convinced of its necessity. On this occasion I believe that many hon. Members would recognise the strength of the case for a timetable Motion.
On 8th November the House gave a Second Reading to the Bill, which provides for a short standstill period for prices, incomes, rents and dividends. The standstill is urgently needed to provide a period during which the Government can bring before the House longer-term measures to achieve faster growth in national output and real incomes, an improvement in the relative position of the lower paid, and moderation in the rate of cost and price inflation.
These objectives were agreed by both sides of industry during the recent tripartite talks. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said, we shall stand ready to discuss our proposals for the next phase with both the TUC and the CBI, and, if possible, we shall seek to reach agreement on them. We shall do so because the proposals will be designed to work towards the objectives on which we were all agreed in the tripartite talks. I am sure that the whole House shares these objectives and hopes that agreement will be reached on the means of implementing them. If, however, tripartite agreement continues to elude us, my right hon. Friend has made it clear that responsibility rests with the Government and that we accept that responsibility.
When agreement in the tripartite talks proved impossible, it became necessary to establish a standstill period quickly to give us time to bring forward our longer-term measures for implementing our agreed objectives. We had to act quickly, and I believe that the overwhelming majority of the country is behind us in what we are doing. That is why the standstill had to come into effect with the introduction of the Bill.
All of us now want to get started, as quickly as possible, on the achievement of our longer-term objectives. That is what the standstill is designed to facilitate, and that is one major reason why the Bill is so urgently needed.
Moreover, the standstill runs for 90 days after Parliament agrees to the enactment of the Bill. That is an added reason for getting the Bill quickly, on which all hon. Members may find it possible to agree.
There is another important reason for enacting the Bill quickly. Now that the standstill has been announced, many firms, organisations and individuals have made it clear that they are ready to observe it. They have done so because they are rightly persuaded that it is in the interest of the whole nation that everyone should observe this standstill. It would

221
be most unfair to them to prolong any uncertainty about the legal position.
Mr. Denis Healey: I understand the right hon. Gentleman is hanging his case on the need to get the standstill over as fast as possible. Will he assure the House that the Government have no intention of making use of the provision in the Bill to prolong the standstill beyond the initial 90 days? If not, I suggest that the whole of his argument so far has been dishonest.
Mr. Prior: The right hon. Gentleman is totally wrong. If it were necessary to move the order to extend the Bill for a further 60 days, the quicker the Bill is enacted, even in that case, the quicker the measure comes to an end. Therefore, exactly the same argument applies. It does not in any way invalidate the argument for urgency. It is therefore essential that a standstill, once announced, should. as quickly as possible, be seen to be binding on everyone.
There are three main reasons why the passage of the Bill is so urgently needed: first, the urgency of establishing the standstill to give us the opportunity to bring forward our longer-term measures for achieving faster growth, for improving the relative position of the lower paid, and for moderating the rate of inflation; secondly, the desirability that the standstill should, as soon as possible, be replaced by the introduction of our measures to achieve these agreed objectives; and, thirdly, the importance that the standstill, once announced, should rapidly be seen to be binding on everyone. It is therefore on this need for urgency that I base my main argument for this timetable Motion.
Mr. Ted Leadbitter: The right hon. Gentleman says that the standstill should be binding on everyone. Will it be able to work and be enforceable on everyone?
Mr. Prior: That is the principle underlying the Bill. This is what we are to discuss in Committee. I am convinced that it is the wish of the vast majority of the people in this country that the Bill should act fairly on everyone during the standstill period.
The whole purpose of the standstill is to give us a breathing space to bring in a longer-term agreement. I believe that
222
the whole country is now fed up with increases in prices and wages which merely follow each other in a vicious spiral. One of the aims of the Bill is to prevent that, and I am certain that for that reason it has had a good response in the country.
I would go so far as to suggest that many even of those who take a different view of the legislation now before the House would recognise that such legislation, once embarked upon, has to be proceeded with very urgently. It might have been possible, under different circumstances, to have agreed upon a voluntary timetable. Unfortunately, that was not possible, and I understand why. Equally, I am satisfied that in the absence of such agreement it was my clear duty to propose a timetable Motion to the House, and I now wish to turn to the details of what is proposed.
First, and most importantly, it is proposed to take the Committee Stage on the Floor of the House, and I believe that that would be the wish of the great majority of hon. Members, not only because the intrinsic importance of the Bill makes it appropriate to do so but also because it will enable a much wider range of Members to express their views on the Bill than would otherwise have been possible.
Secondly, once it was clear that a timetable Motion was needed, I am sure that we were right to introduce it at this early stage in the House's consideration of the Bill. It is not at all unique to propose a timetable Motion before embarking on the Committee Stage. This has been done on three previous occasions since the war, and on quite a number of occasions before the war. In fact, as I remarked last Thursday, we now have an even distribution of such occasions between the parties.
The great advantage of considering a timetable Motion at this early stage is that we can ensure that the debates in Committee are reasonably apportioned between the Clauses of the Bill. In this way we can avoid the risk of devoting too large a part of our discussion to only a very limited part of the proposals. The provisions in the timetable Motion will ensure that we have three days, less any time which we may spend on the consideration of this Motion, for the consideration of the Bill in Committee. We

223
shall then have a further day for the Report Stage, if the Bill is amended in Committee, and for the Third Reading. Should there be no Report Stage, we propose that the debate on Third Reading should end at 6 p.m.
Having regard to the urgency of the Bill, I think that the allocation of time we have proposed is appropriate. While the Bill is important, it is not by any means lengthy. It comprises 10 comparatively short clauses and one schedule. Nor would I suggest that either the clauses or the schedule are particularly complex.
The proposal is that, in Committee, the first day should be allocated to consideration of Clause 1; the second day should be allocated to the consideration of Clause 2 as far as amendments before subsection (4), with amendments before subsection (2) occupying us until seven o'clock: and the third day should be allocated to the remaining proceedings in Committee, with the remainder of Clause 2 and Clause 3 occupying us until seven o'clock, and Clause 4 until nine o'clock. It is proposed that on each of the allocated days we should go on until eleven o'clock. I feel sure that it is right to allocate so much of our time to the very important Clause 2, which deals with the standstill on prices, pay, dividends and rents, and provides power for the appropriate Minister to make orders or notices for this purpose.
So far as Clause 1 is concerned, perhaps I might be allowed to make the point that if we do not this afternoon prolong too far our consideration of this timetable Motion we shall leave ourselves that much more time for consideration of the Clause. Perhaps I should add that it is always open to the House to make more rapid progress on an earlier Clause if it wishes to do so, thereby leaving more time for the consideration of later Clauses.
Mr. Clinton Davis: Is there not a real possibility that the proposal to conclude our proceedings at eleven o'clock each day will prove unduly restrictive? Why is it necessary to conclude our proceedings at that hour? Is the right hon. Gentleman anxious to get his weary back benchers home, and cause them to be less riled than they might otherwise be?
Mr. Prior: I do not believe that on reflection the hon. Gentleman will think that that is the real reason. It is generally for the convenience of the House that we end at about eleven o'clock, and this. is the time that we have proposed. I hope very much that the House will not wish to indulge itself in too many all-night sessions, which I do not think are greatly to the advantage of the House. What we have proposed is a sensible and civilised way of conducting our affairs I might also add, by way of passing reference, that one's experience of the House is that what is said after eleven o'clock is not necessarily the wisest, and that we generally conduct our business better before eleven o'clock than afterwards.
Mr. Gerald Kaufman: So far, 94 amendments have been tabled to the Bill, 47 of them to Clause 2. Does the right hon. Gentleman believe that the time he has allocated to Clause 2 will be sufficient for satisfactory debates on 47 amendments, plus a debate on whether the Clause should stand part of the Bill, bearing in mind that this is the nub of the measure, and that many hon. Members will wish to make further amendments to it, for example, to deal with charges in old people's homes in Manchester?
Mr. Prior: I should have thought, in that case, that the right thing to do is to get on pretty quickly, to get through Clause 1 at an early stage today, and proceed to Clause 2. We have already allocated to Clause 2 not only the whole of tomorrow, but up to seven o'clock on Thursday. If we proceed more quickly today, there is no reason why we should not start on Clause 2 this afternoon or this evening. I believe that the time allocated on the Floor of the House to what is an important but simple measure is very fair and gives an adequate chance for all the relevant points to be considered.
The more detailed provisions of the Motion are common form on these occasions. Having regard to the overriding need for urgency in dealing with the evils of inflation, I believe that the proposals contained in the Motion provide adequate opportunities for debate on the Bill. There will, of course, be many opportunities in the future for debating the Government's longer-term policies for

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the achievement of the objectives agreed in the tripartite talks.
I am therefore convinced that the Motion is fully justified in terms of the national interest; that it provides the framework for adequate parliamentary debate on the Bill; and that it will be recognised here and elsewhere as a further proof of the Government's resolution to deal urgently and fairly with the problems of inflation. I commend the Motion to the House.
3.49 p.m.
Mr. Denis Healey: Ministers who propose guillotine Motions rarely succeed in making brilliant speeches, but the Leader of the House this afternoon was more limp and lacklustre in his argument than anyone else I can recall. Half the time he was arguing that we have to get the Bill through quickly because it is such a good thing and is popular, but the other half of the time he was arguing that we have to get it over as quickly as this because it is so unfair and unjust and the Government must have an opportunity to introduce as fast as possible the wonderful new legislation on prices and incomes about which, after threatening for six months to introduce a statutory policy, they have not yet made up their minds.
I do not think that any of us would deny the right of a Government to introduce a guillotine if or when they face factious time-wasting by an Opposition either on an issue about which they have a clear mandate from the electorate or on an issue on which it is absolutely essential to pass legislation in order to satisfy a fundamental national interest. But the Leader of the House made no attempt whatever to justify this guillotine on either of those grounds. Indeed, it is difficult to see how he could because, after all, on the question of the electoral mandate, he and his right hon. and hon. Friends have been arguing for 10 years now that the sort of legislation he is now introducing is both socially unjust and divisive and is likely to be economically catastrophic.
We now have the Chancellor of the Exchequer—I am glad to see him present today—saying that anyone who criticises this legislation is unpatriotic. We have the Leader of the House introducing legislation which severely limits the right
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of Parliament to criticise that legislation, yet so far we have not had one word of argument from the Government Front Bench, in all the debates last week, to show why they have now completely changed their minds about the argument they have put to us again and again—from both the Opposition Front Bench and the Government Front Bench—that this type of legislation is both socially and economically disastrous.
Indeed, last week we even had the Prime Minister telling Mr. Robin Day that his philosophy on this matter had not changed one whit since the good old days when he told us that any sort of prices or incomes interference by the Government was a dangerous and totalitarian infringement of our liberties and one which was likely to make the disease very much worse than it had been originally.
The Leader of the House failed to remind us that this is the fifth guillotine Motion introduced by the present Government in two and a half years of office, although the previous Government introduce only five guillontines in six years. I hope that the Leader of the House spent a moment or two looking at the subjects of legislation on which his predecssor introduced guillotines earlier in the past two and a half years—the Industrial Relations Act, the Housing Finance Act, the Housing (Financial Provisions) Scotland Act, and the European Communities Bill—because surely he must recognise that his experience with other legislation which has been guillotined is a very serious warning.
The Industrial Relations Bill blew up in the Government's faces because it turned out that as drafted—a point we tried to make under the guillotine but did not have time to make extensively—it was certain to increase enormously the amount of industrial strife in this country. Indeed, this year it has cost the Government more days lost in strikes than were lost during the whole period of the previous Labour Government.
The Housing Finance Act, in spite of the guillotine, has had continuously to be revised by administrative decision. Taking the Industrial Relations Act and the Housing Finance Act together, no objective observer would deny that it is these two Acts—guillotined, as they were,

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without adequate discussion—which have played a large part in producing the crisis with which the present Bill is supposed to deal.
The third Act which the Government introduced under the guillotine was the European Communities Act. I have no intention this afternoon—if only, Mr. Speaker, because I know that you will prevent me—of discussing the merits of the European Communities Act as such. I content myself simply by pointing out that the Bill which the Minister seeks to guillotine this afternoon cannot work unless the European Communities Act is violated. The Bill which the Minister is guillotining takes a right, in paragraph 4(1) of the Schedule, as follows:
"This Act, and any provision made under this Act, shall have effect notwithstanding anything in any other Act or statutory provision passed or made before this Act."
We all know why that particular sub-paragraph was necessary. There is a large number of prices which the Government hope to freeze over the next three or six months which they cannot freeze without violating the European Communities Act, which they forced through the House with totally inadequate discussion, under a guillotine produced with very much the same arguments as those with which the Minister tried to justify the guillotine this afternoon.
Any legislation on prices and incomes directly affects every man and woman in the country as individuals. No one can deny that. But more important still, from the point of view of the objectives the Government have set themselves, the justice and efficiency with which legislation on prices and incomes is applied is likely to create the political climate whose nature will be decisive for the future of the society and the economy.
If the Bill proves to be unjust and ineffective in its application, then the worsening of the political climate will be disastrous. Indeed, no one has argued this more strongly than the right hon. Gentlemen, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Social Services and, indeed, almost every member of the Government Front Bench. That is the reason why, when the Labour Party was in power, although we introduced legislation on prices and incomes, we never sought
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to guillotine it, even though we spent 51 hours in Standing Committee on the legislation in 1966, and 42 hours in Standing Committee in 1968. Yet the present Government are planning to guillotine this Bill before discussion in Committee even starts. They are offering us a bare two and a half days for discussion of a Bill which affects every man and woman in the country. The right hon. Gentleman did not even attempt to argue that there was any sign whatever that the Opposition intended to waste time or to filibuster. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman must have read the Order Paper and have seen that only 32 official Amendments have been tabled, all on matters of absolutely major importance to every man and woman in Britain, and all on matters whose right administration is of major importance to the Government if they are to achieve the objectives which they have said they have set themselves.
One other matter on which both sides of the House can agree—certainly both Front Benches—is that this legislation will do more harm than good unless the time it gives the Government is used to get agreement both from industry and from the trade unions, on a policy to succeed the freeze, a policy for "Phase 2" as it has come to be called. No one made that clearer than the Prime Minister in his speech last night at the Lord Mayor's banquet. We all know—no one has argued this more strongly than the members of the Government Front Bench—that a freeze which is not used to produce effective legislation is certain to dam up inflationary pressures to such an extent that when it comes to an end and the dam finally bursts, the flood of price and wage increases will be such as to sweep away any hope of stemming inflation and, indeed, of achieving the economic objectives which any Government of this country is bound to desire.
The Bill cannot work—I hope that the Leader of the House agrees with me about this—unless during the freeze and as a result of the way the freeze operates, confidence is created among the British people as a whole that control of prices and incomes will work, and will work fairly. Only in that event will there be any chance of producing a change in people's expectations about inflation, to which the Prime Minister rightly referred in his speech at the Guildhall last night.

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However, it is our contention—and a glance at the Order Paper shows that our views are shared by many Conservative Members—that the Bill as drafted cannot create the conditions in which a policy for the control of prices and incomes is likely to work when the freeze ends. In the central problem of prices, food, for example, is not covered effectively. Although food represents 40 per cent. of the expenditure for the average poor family in Britain, the legislation covers only one-third of total foodstuffs. It has been recorded in the Press that increases of up to 80 per cent. are expected in the cost of the two-thirds of foodstuffs that are not affected by the legislation.
Mr. Prior Mr. Prior indicated dissent.
Mr. Healey: The right hon. Gentleman is the right person to correct me if I am wrong.
Mr. William Ross: He has never been right on food prices.
Mr. Healey: He certainly has not. However, does he contest the view quoted in the Economist that the cost of tomatoes, for example—
Mr. Prior Mr. Prior indicated dissent.
Mr. Healey: The right hon. Gentle man shakes his head. No doubt he will suggest that people should eat avocado pears instead of tomatoes. He is about to introduce another great change in our eating habits in that, having persuaded the population to eat peaches, he will now persuade people to eat avocado pears. Nevertheless, it was stated in the Economist that the price of tomatoes was likely to increase by 80 per cent. by next summer. The price of beef is also likely to increase—
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Patrick Jenkin)The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Patrick Jenkin) rose—
Mr. Healey: There is nothing I like more than giving way to the Government Front Bench, and to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in particular. However, if the hon. Gentleman is determined to intervene I hope he will refer also to the estimate quoted at a conference of agriculturists in Harrogate last weekend that the price of beef is likely to rise by between 25 and 30 per cent. by early 1973. Will he deal also with the point
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made by the Economist which, rather surprisingly in view of its earlier opinions, has given the legislation a cold and clammy handshake in its past two or three issues? Last Saturday's issue, for example, stated that poor families faced an increase of well over 1 per cent. in their cost of living by next April through rises in food prices alone. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to contest those figures, I shall be delighted to listen.
Mr. Patrick Jenkin: I sought to intervene at the point where the right hon. Gentleman, having said that only one-third of foodstuffs was covered—a point which can be dealt with in the Bill—added that the remaining two-thirds would increase in cost by 80 per cent.
Mr. Healey: The House will be familiar with the auditory defects from which the hon. Gentleman suffers, of which there were many examples during his interventions in the debate on VAT during the Finance Bill discussions. I said that prices of the remaining two-thirds of foodstuffs not covered by the Bill would rise by up to 80 per cent., and I cited the example of tomatoes, the cost of which is likely to increase by 80 per cent. by next summer. I also said that beef prices were likely to increase by 25 to 30 per cent. by early 1973. I also quoted the estimate by the Economist that the cost of living for poorer families would rise by well over 1 per cent. by next April because of increases in the cost of food alone, which are not covered by the Bill. I was interested to note that the Chief Secretary has not attempted to controvert these statements.
Housing is the second most important element in the cost of living. The Government pre-empted their freeze of rents in October last year and intend to bring in a further whacking increase in rents next April, when, according to the predictions leaked by the representatives of the Government to the newspapers over the weekend, the freeze will have ended.
Therefore, effective control of council rents is practically non-existent. But half the population lives in privately-owned property, where there is no control. There is no control over mortgages, the price of land or the price of housing, even though no one has argued more or wept more crocodile tears than the Chancellor in recent years about the gross injustice

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of the enormous increases in land and house prices because of the activities of private speculators, especially over the last year or so of Conservative rule.
The food and housing items which are not covered by the Bill account for about 40 per cent. of the average family's expenditure. On the other items which are supposed to be covered by the Bill there is already widespread evasion of control. A large number of increases has been reported to the Ministry in the first nine days of the freeze. The Government have told manufacturers and retailers that they may ignore their special offers and base their prices on a completely putative and meaningless figure, which has not appeared on a packet of "Tide" or a tin of shaving soap for months. They may make changes in quantity or quality in the packaging with almost total freedom from follow-up.
A large number of firms have already pre-empted the controls by introducing massive price increases in the weeks immediately preceding last Monday. One reason for the Bill is that the threats to introduce a statutory policy, which were made in holes and corners, in Press briefings and insinuated in answer to Questions in the House, meant that any chance of a voluntary policy succeeding began to disappear in the summer. Leyland brought in enormous increases in August, and Ford, Vauxhall, and Chrysler introduced increases of 5 per cent. during the week before the freeze was announced.
The extraordinary thing is that almost the only body in the country which did not take seriously the Government's warnings about the statutory policy were the Government themselves. They have introduced legislation for total control over wages and prices without establishing machinery to ensure that price increases were not carried out.
Mr. Prior: Does the right hon. Gentleman not accept that the CBI initiative from July to July, which was then carried forward to the end of October, was successful in holding down price increases to 5 per cent.? Will he give credit where credit is due, instead of making wild remarks about enormous increases in the last 10 days?
Mr. Healey: The right hon. Gentleman either misheard me or is deliberately
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misunderstanding what I said. I said that the Government began to drop hints around midsummer that they planned to introduce a statutory control over prices and wages. I believe that the CBI freeze, although it covered only about one-third of total consumer expediture, was fairly effective during the 12 months ending July. But there was a massive surge in the price index in August which continued in September.
The CBI freeze was crumbling during the two or three months before it officially ended. If any Minister can produce evidence to show that this is not true, we shall be interested to hear it. The Government were the only body to do nothing lo prepare for a statutory freeze. They have introduced the freeze without machinery for enforcing the provisions on prices.
There is a beleaguered handful of men and women—25, I believe, sitting somewhere in a room in London receiving between 1,000 and 2,000 telephone calls of protest or inquiry every day about what is taking place. There has been no attempt to involve local authorities in monitoring the freeze, although it should have been obvious that, without local authority support and intervention, there is no chance whatever of seeing or knowing that price controls are observed. I am astonished that the new Minister for Trade and Consumer Affairs, who is supposed to represent the consumer, is not present this afternoon. After all, half the Bill is directly in his province. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"] Even he had to admit yesterday that, although he was the Minister for Consumer Affairs, he would play no role in seeing that the consumer's interest was represented and maintained during the next 90 to 150 days.
There is no provision in the Bill for the return of money illegally extorted by shopkeepers or manufacturers during the freeze. All that is asked is that, when they are discovered—if they are discovered—to have raised their prices illegally, they shall bring their prices down. But they pocket all their ill-gotten gains, and the consumer whom the right hon. and learned Gentleman is supposed to protect gets no recompense. At the same time as there is widespread evasion of the price elements in the legislation, many honest traders who genuinely

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try to comply with the legislation will find themselves bankrupt when the freeze ends, because they will not be allowed to do anything about the increase in wholesale prices to which they have been subjected by less honest traders earlier down the chain of exchange.
I have referred briefly to the defects in the price side of the legislation. The situation is very different in the wage element of the package. Here we have total control. Tears were shed by the bucketful by the Chancellor and the Prime Minister in recent months about the lot of the low-paid worker. Indeed, we were told the main purpose of the Chequers package was to help that category. Yet agricultural workers have been refused a rise already negotiated, and are not to be allowed to have it paid to them retrospectively when the freeze ends. Hospital workers and shop assistants, many of whom receive £14 a week, are not to be allowed to negotiate during the freeze for an increase to be paid.
The situation for dividends is very different. The agricultural worker who has negotiated an increase and who has been promised that it shall be paid at a date which happens to fall in the middle of the freeze is refused his increase, but any company which has announced a dividend increase, even if it were not approved by shareholders before the freeze, is allowed to pay it in the middle of the freeze. It astonishes me that a Government who still maintain that they want the support of the trade union movement for a voluntary policy when the freeze ends can introduce such an obscene discrimination between dividends and wages as that included in the Bill which the Government now seek to make subject to the guillotine.
There is no provision in the Bill to prevent the retrospective payment of dividends. A retrospective payment of wages is forbidden, but nothing is to be done about capital appreciation of shares which is not distributed in dividends, although it would be perfectly open to the Government, if they wished, to limit profits to 5 per cent. and confiscate any excess profits above that figure for the benefit of the country, to be used as the State feels best. Indeed, we have tabled a Motion to that effect.
Mr. Peter Rees: I should be most grateful if the right hon. Gentleman would explain the concept of a retrospective dividend. Dividends are usually declared in respect of previous accounting periods. As a matter of law, I do not understand the concept of "retrospective", but perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will explain.
Mr. Healey: I mean that any firm which has withheld the payment of dividends during the period of the freeze may increase the amount of dividends paid in the subsequent period in order to compensate its shareholders, if it wishes, for any loss which they have suffered through the lack of payment of dividends during the period of the freeze. I am glad to see that the hon. and learned Gentleman has got the point.
Finally, the Government have so little confidence in the legislation, which the House is being asked to approve without any opportunity for serious investigation and discussion, that, as in the legislation on the value added tax, they include in the Schedule of supplemental provisions some provisions which to many hon. Members on both sides of the House will appear to verge on the apparatus of a totalitarian State. Under paragraph 1(1) of the Schedule:
"An order or notice under section 2 of this Act …",
which concerns the freeze of wages and prices,
"may be framed in any way whatsoever, may prescribe any method of comparing prices, charges, rates of remuneration, dividends or rents, …".
Under paragraph 1(3), these provisions can create criminal offences.
The Government are asking the House to approve legislation which is bound to make the economic and social situation, serious as it is, even worse than the situation before last Monday. The House is being asked to agree to give the Government powers which have few precedents in the history of our society, and to do so without any serious opportunity for discussion.
The Bill will impose gross injustice on our people. It cannot work. It cannot achieve the objectives it sets—to freeze, to create a standstill on prices and the cost of living—and for this reason it provides the worst possible background for

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the resumption of talks between the Government and the CBI and the TUC.
If ever a Bill deserved and required careful scrutiny by the House, it is this Bill. For that reason my right hon. and hon. Friends and I will vote against the Motion.
4.17 p.m.
Sir Robin Turton: I do not want to follow the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) into the details of the Bill, because that will come later when we consider the Bill. I merely want to deal with the time-table Motion.
I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that the record of the Labour Government was so much better because when they had periodic prices and incomes Bills they did not allow all Members to take part in the Committee stage but sent the Bills upstairs to Standing Committees. He said that 51 hours were spent in Committee on one Bill. Then he went on to say that the Bill affected every man, woman and child in the country. I cannot understand how he can justify sending such a Bill upstairs to a Standing Committee. I would far rather it came on to the Floor of the House, so that all of us may put the case for our constituents.
The Government are giving 22½ hours for 630 Members instead of what the right hon. Gentleman's Government gave—51 hours to the limited number of members of a Standing Committee. His criticism of the amount of time being devoted to the Bill and of our putting it on the Floor of the House is without justification.
I believe in a time-table because the correct time-table allows for better debate and for more hon. Members to take part. But I regret that my right hon. Friend the new Leader of the House has again neglected Standing Orders. He said that it was impossible to reach a voluntary time-table. I thought the last Report on this subject from the Select Committee on Procedure had debunked the whole idea of voluntary time-tables. There is no such thing as a voluntaryy time-table: one cannot have a voluntary time-table. There may be an informal agreement between the Whips, but any independent back bencher can deal with that.
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We must try to get a formal time-table that is fair to all parties. As Standing Order No. 43 lays down, when that happens the Government will say, "We can allow only three days for the Committee stage. It is up to hon. Members on the Business Committee to divide those three days so that there is a fair discussion of all important provisions". Would the Leader of the House tell us why he has neglected Standing Order No. 43, which we looked at in the Committee on Procedure as recently as in the last Session and gave our suggestions of how it was to be improved? We suggested how, under the direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means, we should be able to get all parties making a contribution to a fair allocation of time.
Why has that Standing Order been cast completely overboard, as it was in the European Communities Bill? If we are not to use Standing Order No. 43, Ibegthe House to devise its own Standing Order which it thinks is better, because it is not a satisfactory way of time-tabling business for the Leader of the House alone to put what he considers to be the fair way of dividing up a Bill. When I look at his efforts today, I am reinforced in that conclusion.
As has been said, 41 Amendments are suggested to Clause 2, but there is insufficient time given to Clause 2. It is perfectly right for the Leader of the House to say that if Members do not waste too much time discussing the guillotine Motion and in discussing Clause 1, there will then be adequate time for Clause 2.
But the whole point of timetabling is to realise the human frailty and weakness of hon. and right hon. Members. They usually talk too much on too small issues. What we want to do by timetabling is to prevent that. Directly hon. Members are told that they have until eleven o'clock on day one to discuss Clause 1, Clause 1 is likely to occupy all that time.
Mr. Tam Dalyell: As a matter of history, and to put the record straight, speaking as one who was in the modest position of PPS to the Leader of the House at the time, may I say that it was at the instance of the then Conservative Chief Whip, the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw), that our Bill went upstairs, for

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the good reason that he found difficulty in manning the House downstairs because it was a running programme.
Sir Robin Turton: As I was saying at the beginning, the right hon. Member for Leeds, East was praying in aid that his Government had done the right thing. He ought to have said, "At the instance of the then Opposition Chief Whip, we sent Bills to Standing Committees". I have no knowledge of these backstairs intrigues between Chief Whips.
Mr. Healey: It may have slipped the the right hon. Gentleman's memory that although we took the Committee stage of the Bill in Standing Committee, by agreement between the two sides, we gave it this long period—51 hours and 42 hours in 1968—but in 1967 we gave the Report stage of the Prices and Incomes Bill 22½ hours on the Floor of the House so that in 1967 we had on Report, available to all hon. Members, almost as much time as the present Government are giving to the Committee stage.
Sir Robin Turton: That Bill was much longer. I am not trying to make a party polemical speech. When the right hon. Member for Leeds, East was talking about the Motion and not about the Bill—which was only a small fraction of his speech—he was, I thought, making a false point, because what I want people to realise is that time on the Floor of the House is much more precious than time in Standing Committee. It is wrong to compare the two.
I like to see Bills of constitutional importance being taken on the Floor of the House and I know, as any responsible Member on either side of the House knows, how difficult it is for those who manage Government business to afford more than a short time on the Floor of the House.
My other suggestion is that in future guillotine Motions the Leader of the House might insert a new provision recalling again another recommendation of the Committee on Procedure—that speeches on such occasions should be limited to 15 minutes by back benchers and 30 minutes by members of the Front Bench. It is a good opportunity for an experiment.
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I see the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) shaking his head, and I know that he would be annoyed by any curtailment of speeches. It is a recommendation that has never been discussed by the House. A number of Members think that some of their colleagues talk for rather too long. A guillotine Motion would be a good opportunity to provide for an experiment.
Finally, I ask my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to reconsider the matter of timetabling again, to get us back to Standing Order No. 43, and in this case to realise that there is inadequate time for the discussion of the major issues in Clause 2, and too much time for discussion of other parts of the Bill.
4.27 p.m.
Mr. David Steel: I want to take up one point made by the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Sir Robin Turton) on the view of the Leader of the House about a voluntary timetable. If he prefers an agreed timetable it would surely be possible for an agreement to be reached on what is a fair timetable, and for that to be included in a Motion of the type before us. This would mean that the timetable would be adhered to throughout the Committee stage of any Bill.
The Leader of the House should know the record of my party, that we adhere to the view that timetabling of Bills on the Floor of the House is a sensible arrangement—[HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."]—and that the parties should agree on how much time should be given to each part of the Bill. I want the Leader of the House to expand on his statement that a voluntary timetable was tried. All I can tell him is that although my party supported the Second Reading of the Bill the Government did not consult us on any timetabling.—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why should they?"]—I go back over the argument. We believe in an agreed timetable, which means as wide consultation as possible. Certainly for this Bill it means consultation with those Conservatives who voted against Second Reading. I see no reason why consultation should be confined to the Chief Whips of the two major parties, even

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though some back benchers seem to take that view.
Sir Robin Turton: The point I want to make is that voluntary timetabling has been abolished by the abolition of standing Order No. 44. There is no such thing as a voluntary timetable. There can be informal agreements but any hon. Member who wants to do so can break an informal agreement.
Mr. Steel: What I am saying is that one can have an informal agreement which can then be made formal by a Motion of this kind which has already been informally agreed. What we are debating now is a Motion that is not an agreement; it is a timetable that has not even been considered in the different sections of the House. This is what I am protesting about, and I think that the Leader of the House ought to proceed in a different way in future.
Mr. Prior: Of course, I have taken careful note of what right hon. and hon. Members on both sides have said. One carries out a certain number of informal discussions, and it would have been quite intolerable, if we had not been able to agree with the Opposition, that we should try to reach agreement with other sections of the House.
Mr. Michael Foot: That is what the Government did on the EEC Bill.
Mr. Prior: We had to try to agree with the official Opposition first, but I have taken careful note of what my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Sir Robin Turton) said, and we shall see whether we can get the matter right next time—if there is a next time.
Mr. Steel: All I can say to that is that the comment of the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), from a seated position, is perfectly correct. An element of hypocrisy is entering into the argument of the Leader of the House, because what he said that he could not do is precisely what the Government did in the instance of the European Communities Bill. If the Government are saying that they are prepared to consult us only on occasions when they think that our support matters, that is a startling admission, and the right hon. Gentleman should reconsider it. [An HON. MEMBER: "He
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did not say that."] I know that he did not, but the right hon. Gentleman must accept that we expect to be treated with at least the same courtesy as was practised by his predecessors.
Even if we had been consulted on the Motion, we could not have agreed to the timetable proposed. Criticism has already been made by the Father of the House about the amount of time given to Clause 2. As the effect of the Bill is to be backdated to a specific date, there is no hurry in terms of days about getting the legislation through the House. Adequate time should be given for discussion of all the topics which will be raised.
One of the effects of the guillotine is that the Chair is put in a difficult position in selecting amendments. I do not criticise that selection. I believe that it is as fair as it could be in the circumstances. What I am saying is that the selection of amendments made under the guillotine means that certain important issues will have to be discussed in a package along with other important issues.
That is not a satisfactory way of proceeding on the Committee stage of any Bill, whether on the Floor of the House or in Committee upstairs. We should have an opportunity to discuss individual issues, and particularly to vote on each issue on its merits. We should not simply have to raise matters in individual speeches under some sort of umbrella amendment, which is the procedure we shall have to adopt under the selection of amendments made under the imposition of this timetable.
It is because we believe the measure is complicated that we consider the Government should have given more time for discussion. We also consider that totally inadequate consultation took place, and therefore my colleagues and I will vote against the Motion.
4.32 p.m.
Mr. John Biffen: The whole House will have been seized of the importance of the case argued by my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Sir Robin Turton) for the desirability of invoking Standing Order No. 43 if we are likely to be presented again with this somewhat disagreeable exercise.
Like my right hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and

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Peebles (Mr. David Steel), and in contrast to the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), I want to consider the timetable Motion rather than the merits of the legislation. I do not consider that the Government have been ungenerous in the amount of time they have allocated in toto, because the only real comparison we have is the amount of time that was spent on Part IV of the Prices and Incomes Act, 1966. What the Government are seeking to do, as I understand it, is to present a Bill which, to all intents and purposes, is indistinguishable from Part IV of the 1966 Act. Doubtless some quirk of draftsmanship or some aesthetic consideration persuaded them to call the measure the Counter-Inflation (Temporary Provisions) Bill.
However, we all know roughly from what stable the Bill has come. Therefore, I believe that the time offered to the House is not unreasonable. Any study of how the Standing Committee behaved on Part IV of the 1966 Act, and how the House behaved on Report, should speedily dispose of the proposition that this is a subject which lends itself to filibustering. It is not. It lends itself to a great many serious arguments. So thick are the serious matters to be considered that this is one of those rare parliamentary occasions when we can get happily rid of the professional time-wasters.
Against that background, I concur with the broad conclusion reached by the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles, that the result is that the wide range of amendments which necessarily have to be grouped in consideration of Clause 2 contain the danger of making a nonsense of one central issue, which is bound to emerge in this debate, and that is the treatment of the case of the agricultural workers' pay.
I am not delving into the merits of whether the Government are right or wrong; that is an issue of great importance in its own right. It is of wide-ranging significance because it underlines the difficulties that exist between settlements which are known to the Government and those which are not, and where the watchword must be "invisibility". If anyone thinks that an academic point, I refer him to the answer given to me by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment on 9th Novem-
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ber. I asked by what means he was informed of cash equivalents of pay settlements after taking into account the adjustment for changes in working conditions in the private sector where he has been informed that an industrial dispute has taken place. The conclusion of his reply was that there were no general arrangements for terms of settlements to be reported to his Department, whether or not an industrial dispute had taken place. Everything that flows from that simple revelation makes the debate on the agricultural wages award important and desirable so that it should have pride of place among all the considerations of Clause 2, and the time that has been offered to the House to debate it is less than adequate.
There are arguments in favour of taking the Committee stages of a Bill on the Floor of the House if issues of constitutional significance are involved, and here there is an issue of some constitutional significance. Paragraph 4(1) of the Schedule says:
"This Act, and any provision made under this Act, shall have effect notwithstanding anything in any other Act or statutory provision passed or made before this Act."
This principle my hon. Friends tried to relate to the European Communities Act and Community legislation. But when the point was put to my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Trade and Consumer Affairs, he said:
"The question cannot be posed in such simple terms—".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th November, 1972; Vol. 845, c. 1137.]
In a sense, that could well become a locus classicus statement of any Minister under pressure in replying to a debate. It is a superbly deft way of dealing with the problem. If my question were put too simply I dare say more subtle and feline minds than mine could re-phrase it in a more complex and searching fashion, but if that is required more time will be needed. It is, after all, a matter of constitutional significance. It is not just on Clause 2 that I have some reservations; I wonder whether we shall have sufficient time to probe the relationship between this legislation and Community legislation.
I hope that the guillotine will be administered in such a way as to satisfy the proper preoccupation of the House in this matter. It is not just a question of making

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some kind of arrangement with the Commission or with the British Steel Corporation, as though one were engaged in wheeling and dealing. Basically, the question is one of this House knowing the limits of its legislative competence, a question which can be pursued only if the House is granted time to discuss that part of the legislation. Thus, although my right hon. Friend has made reasonable allocation of time for the Committee Stage of the Bill, he has not, I think, been over-generous. I ask him therefore, to consider the two serious points which I have raised, because I believe that the House might well prefer to devote more time to those two issues and rather less to others.
4.40 p.m.
Mr. Tam Dalyell: I do not think that those who listened with care and attention to the speech of the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) would describe his mind as either subtle or feline. He has asked some direct questions, to which he should receive an equally direct reply. I am sorry that the title, Counter-Inflation (Temporary Provisions) Bill did not appeal to the hon. Gentleman aesthetically. But he used the rather pregnant phrase, "We know from what stable it has come", and therein, perhaps, lies a possible danger for the Government.
I shall address my remarks to the Leader of the House, not only in his present office but also in his previous incarnation as Minister of Agriculture, in pursuing the issue of the farm workers' wages, a subject which was raised by the hon. Member for Oswestry. Mr. Frazer Evans, president of the Scottish National Farmers' Union, has said:
"I am deeply disappointed that the latest increase in agricultural wages agreed a fortnight ago may be caught within the Government's wage and prices freeze on a technicality. … As far back as May, we made clear to the workers' side that we would be sympathetic to a new minimum rate for general farm workers of at least £19 per week"—
not exactly a princely sum—
"as from December 4th; the workers' claim was rejected then because we were anxious to keep to the Government's wish to avoid settlements at less than yearly intervals. At its meeting on October 2nd the Board delayed a final decision on the workers' claim because of uncertainty over the effect of the Government's call for restraint; at the meeting on October 24th the employer and independent members of the Board voted in favour of the £19 proposal
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and against the workers' proposal for a larger increase because of the Government's wish for restraint and our prior commitment to an increase."
At this point, I draw the attention of the Leader of the House to a statement made during the farming programme broadcast this morning, to the effect that some rich, successful, efficient farmers would go ahead whatever course the Government decided to adopt. We know precisely what this will mean. There is no doubt that some prosperous farmers, who might be called "good" employers, will go ahead and pay whatever they wish, while the less prosperous, less good employers of agricultural workers will take refuge in the recommendation. Those of us representing substantial farming constituencies—as I do in West Lothian—know that those who work for the less prosperous farmers will get the rough end of the stick, and particularly rough because they are the lower-paid farm workers in any case.
The statement of the Scottish NFU continues:
"This very reasonable increase may now be frozen because the statutory machinery for settling the minimum agricultural wage means that there is always a delay between a decision by the Wages Board and the date it becomes effective. Other much larger wage awards are not affected even though they were only negotiated on Monday of this week because they were implemented immediately."
There is a very real sense of grievance among farm workers because, as we all know, certain agreements, started long after the farm workers' negotiations, were rushed through because of the connivance of the employers concerned. Legally, those employers were in the clear, but there is a sense of connivance, and, if we are to talk about justice, because some employers connived and others did not—
Mr. Prior: Nonsense.
Mr. Dalyell: If it be nonsense, let the former Minister of Agriculture say why it is nonsense.
Mr. Prior: The talk about connivance is totally untrue. Moreover, the hon. Gentleman must remember that the award for Scottish agricultural workers comes only 10 months after the last award. Had it been brought forward to before the standstill, it would have come about 8½ months after the last award. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman would

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feel that that was a reasonable period between awards.
Mr. Dalyell: We are talking about people who are starting from a base of £19 a week, less than half of what many of the motor workers in my constituency, and many others, earn. But I do not want to draw comparisons with motor workers because the important comparison is with dividend restraint, and the Government's failure to introduce any measure of that kind. The Chief Secretary will remember all the arguments we had on stock options on the Finance Bill. The comparison is with the treatment of dividends, the treatment of stock options, and the treatment of children's disaggregated incomes, which we discussed ad nauseam at that time. In these circumstances, a basis of £19 a week cannot conceivably be thought of as fair. I give way to my hon. Friend, because he represents many farmers and farm workers.
Mr. James Sillars: Will my hon. Friend not agree that the farm workers' wage applications must be looked at in the light of the right hon. Gentleman's boast, when he was the Minister of Agriculture, that in the intervening months between the last wage increase and the present application, farm incomes and the profitability of the industry had increased enormously? All that farm workers are now asking is that they share in the profitability which has already accrued, and is boasted about by the present Government.
Mr. Dalyell: I echo what my hon. Friend has said. To be fair, many, though not all, Scottish farmers would go along with him. Through their official organisation—this is what its Press release and some of our discussions with them boil down to—they recognise the justice of the farm workers' case. To interfere in this way, when the Government are not interfering in dividend restraint and stock options, is wholly unjust.
I recollect the days in 1966 and 1967, under the Labour Government, when the analogy constantly used was of an ice block in a river. At the end of the freeze, it was said, the ice melts and there is a great flood. In spite of all we have now heard—the Prime Minister at the Guildhall, the Leader of the
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House today—I do not see why that analogy, which was used against the Labour Government in 1966 and 1967 with considerable effect, should not apply to the Government today. We have heard nothing in the way of constructive thinking on phase 2. It is said that there are problems with phase 2, but no one has come forward with a coherent notion of how to deal with the problems of the flood, of the cascade that will undoubtedly take place.
Until we have a much clearer idea of precisely what will happen on phase 2, we must maintain that this is an unwise and ill thought out, hastily produced Measure. If there was ever any Measure hastily produced and ill thought out, this is it, and that is a further reason why we should have a good deal more time to discuss it, and try to hammer some sense, method and coherence into what the Government propose.
4.50 p.m.
Mr. Ray Carter: I shall be brief, because I accept the argument of the Leader of the House that we should get on with the substance of the Bill as soon as possible.
In opposing the proposed timetable, I speculate on what the Press may be saying in about two months after we have had the Act in operation for 60 days or so. I suggest that the newspapers will be saying about this Bill what they have said on many occasions since the passing of the Industrial Relations Act, that not sufficient time was given by the House to discussion of many detailed points within it. I am certain that the Press will offer a similar criticism of the Bill in about two months, particularly when housewives discover that, while their husbands' wages are pegged, prices continue to rise.
I do not wish to pre-empt the discussion that we shall have later on the various Clauses of the Bill, but there seems to be enormous scope, even if the Government were ever serious about pegging prices, for manufacturers, retailers, wholesalers and other business people to circumvent the provisions of the Bill. There is not sufficient time within the scope of the timetable to probe the Government's intentions to discover the weaknesses in the Bill, and to try to have the appropriate amendments passed.

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People no longer entirely trust this Government, to put it at its mildest. It is often said, particularly by people outside the House, that politicians are apt to say one thing and do another. But no Government have ever provided more graphic cause for public feeling on this issue than the present by their actions—and, particularly, the actions of the Prime Minister—over the past few months.
In the debate on the Bill on Wednesday evening, I referred to speeches made by the Prime Minister, in particular, one he made at Birmingham in June, 1970, in which he categorically denied that a measure of this kind would ever be introduced. Indeed, that was part of the Conservative Party manifesto. I submit that the country no longer trusts this Government, and it is suspicious of the intentions lying behind the Bill.
To illustrate why the country feels as it does, I give one example. The Government, in a careful public relations exercise, are trying to convince everyone that this is merely a 90-days freeze. Anyone with sufficient marbles will know that 90 days in terms of a freeze is a ludicrous period of time. Why could not the Government be honest? Instead of saying that there will be, first, a period of 90 days and, second, a period of 60 days, why could they not be fair and honest with the country and say, "We shall institute a six months' freeze"? Obviously, that is what it will turn out to be. It will be not 90 days but at least 180, and possibly more.
Mr. Biffen: No.
Mr. Carter: The hon. Member for Oswestry says, "No". I am convinced that—
Mr. Biffen: What about the complications of VAT?
Mr. Carter: I accept entirely that there are complications with VAT, and it may well be that, as a result of the Bill, we may see other action by the Government to remove the difficulties that they will face not only on the question of VAT but on the matter of our involvement within the EEC after 1st January and the effect which the Bill will have on our commitments there. They are two added reasons for asking the Government to be honest in their thinking, not only with the House, but
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with the country. I do not believe that we are seeing anything like the size of the iceberg that the Government are confronting us with in the Bill.
There may be some agreement across the Floor of the House about the need for some form of control of prices and incomes, but is this the way to go about it? I do not believe it is, and therefore I cannot support the Motion. I urge the Leader of the House, even at this eleventh hour—and it is getting late, with just an hour and 15 minutes left of the debate—to reconsider precisely what he has put to us and give us sufficient time to debate adequately one of the most serious Measures to be brought before the House since the war.
4.56 p.m.
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Patrick Jenkin): We have had a commendably brief debate on the timetable Motion, which fulfils the hope of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Carter) that the House might dispose of the Motion earlier than we had envisaged and move on to the consideration of the Bill. I shall not take more than a short time to reply to some of the points made during the debate.
It was the hon. Member for Northfield who reminded us that earlier Opposition speakers did not always bear in mind that the Bill is a very short-term, temporary measure, intended to provide time to work out, by agreement if possible, longer-term measures. What might be inappropriate for the 12-months Bill that my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) mentioned is not necessarily appropriate for a much shorter-term Bill, such as we shall shortly consider. This is the important point to remember when we talk about the need for a timetable and the time that has been allocated.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Sir Robin Turton) drew the attention of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to the provisions of Standing Order No. 43, and suggested that perhaps that procedure should be used on this occasion. With the greatest respect to my right hon. Friend, that would have been difficult, because if we had proposed the Standing Order No. 43 procedure for the establishment of a Business Committee the House would have had to wait for the Committee to

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meet and to make recommendations on the allocation of time. There would have needed to be two Motions, first, to refer the matter to the Business Committee and, subsequently, to put into effect what it recommended. We have felt all along that the urgency of the Bill was such that it was better that we should ask the House to let Parliament pass the legislation as rapidly as we could.
Sir Robin Turton: The normal procedure would be that when the Government moved to bring the Bill to a Committee of the whole House, at the same time they moved the appointment of a Business Committee, which would get over the time difficulty. It is important that we should try to get the timetable procedure right, because it was the understanding of the Select Committee on Procedure when we considered the guillotine Motion that the Motion would come on the first day when the Bill was being brought to the Floor of the House.
Mr. Jenkin: I am anxious to be as helpful as possible. I should be the last to claim—I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will agree with me—that we have got these matters right. I have a lot of sympathy with what the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel) said about the general sense of timetabling when one is dealing with measures of this sort. We have no wish to be obstinate or stiffnecked about the matter and we will take the closest note of what my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton has said.
With regard to the speech of the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), I think that my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton put his finger on the matter when he said that most of what the right hon. Gentleman said was about the Bill and not about the Motion. We shall have a good many hours over the course of the next three days to deal with the various matters that the right hon. Gentleman raised. I do not think that I should go into those matters now, but I must say that I rejected completely the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that there is any inconsistency—the right hon. Gentleman used a somewhat stronger word and did so, I think, very unjustly between, our desire to get the Bill passed as quickly as we
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can, consistent with a reasonable amount of time for debate, and the provisions in the Bill for extending the standstill period after 60 days, if that should prove necessary, so that we can put what has been called the stage 2 proposals before the House. I do not think there is any inconsistency in that at all.
The reason we want the Bill put through as quickly as possible is that where one has a measure of this sort, an emergency short-term measure, back-dated to a date even before the First Reading of the Bill—the date of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister's statement was 6th November—it is essential that the Government should have the powers to take action as quickly as possible—again, if it should be necessary—against those who fail to observe the standstill.
I disagree with the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Peebles and Selkirk who suggested, if I understood him correctly, that because the standstill is backdated to 6th November that was a reason for not needing to hurry too much over the Bill. The difficulties that one faces when one is taking powers to make orders or to serve notices on those who fail to comply with the standstill are to ensure that the shortest possible time should elapse during which one has not got the power to deal with them. We have specifically not taken the power to make anything retrospective. We can make the powers operate only from the date of the Royal Assent. It seems that the argument which the hon. Gentleman put forward is the opposite to the one he was putting to the House that we need to limit the time, as far as we can, between the date of the standstill, namely, 6th November, and the date on which the Government are in a position to take powers to deal with the matter. I did not wholly accept the hon. Gentleman's argument in that regard.
We take note of what my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry and other speakers said about the agricultural workers. No doubt that matter can be dealt with in the debates on Clause 2. The point that my hon. Friend made, which was relevant to what the right hon. Member for Leeds, East said, was that the true comparison is not with the whole of the 1966 Prices and Incomes Bill. That started fairly leisurely after the Declaration of Intent which set up the National Board for Prices and Incomes

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and all that, but suddenly, on 20th July, 1966, the freeze was announced by the then Prime Minister and it was followed by something which I hope will always be regarded as quite unprecedented in the annals of the House, namely, the addition to a Bill which had already had its Second Reading and was already in Committee, of Part IV. It is Part IV which is the nearest parallel.
I disagree with my hon. Friend when he says that this measure is indistinguishable from the 1966 Act, because the circumstances in which it is being introduced are quite different—we shall have the opportunity to deal with that argument—not least because we are introducing an emergency Bill to give time to work out longer-term measures, whereas our predecessors in 1966 had already introduced the long-term measures and then were forced to take emergency action. It seems that they had it the wrong way round.
Part IV of the 1966 Act never had any Second Reading. It went straight into the Committee Stage and only a fraction of the time that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned was devoted to the Committee Stage of the 1966 Act was devoted to Part IV. We feel that the time we are allowing on the Bill, bearing in mind that it is a short-term measure intended to provide a temporary standstill while the Government can work out, by agreement or otherwise, the longer-term measures to fight inflation, is not unreasonable.
Therefore, on the merits, and, indeed, so far as the precedent of the 1966 legislation is relevant, the time allowed under the time-table Motion is reasonable. It might even be regarded as reasonable if it were operative for a very much longer period, such as the 1966 legislation, but it is reasonable for legislation which cannot last for more than 90 days from the Royal Assent if there is no extension, or five months if there is an extension for the period of 60 days.
We appreciate that there will be rough edges. There are bound to be difficulties which would be more serious if this were permanent legislation. But the general support of the public for the measures which have been introduced—
Mr. Biffen: Before my hon. Friend passes beyond the prospect of the renewal
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for a further 60 days, will he indicate whether, should that eventually come to pass, he sees the House having a full day in which to debate the order and extending it. Obviously all the problems of the agricultural workers' pay and a great many other things will be very much in the forefront of our minds, and 90 minutes late at night would be inadequate.
Mr. Jenkin: It does not fall to me to determine the Business of the House. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has taken a most careful note of what my hon. Friend said. I have no doubt that matters of that sort can be discussed through the normal channels and hon. Members from both sides will have an opportunity to make their representations to my right hon. Friend.
I was making the point that, even if the extension has to be decided upon, even if the House is asked and it is eager to extend the order for a further 60 days, we are still dealing with a very short-term measure.
The time is relatively short. The amount of time which we have allocated for debate, and which we have put forward in the Motion, gives ample opportunity for a thorough examination of the Bill. I can understand why hon. Members should object to a time-table Motion. It is natural that all those who are not entirely happy with the legislation which the Government bring forward should feel that their time is being limited and that they do not have an adequate opportunity to voice their comments and objections. However, we believe it right that we should, rather than risk the difficulties of too much time being concentrated on one part of the Bill, perhaps even not the most important part, allocate the time from the beginning. That will make for sensible and orderly debate.
It is right to note that there have been comments on this matter outside the House. The surprise is not that we are rushing this legislation through but that we are not putting it through the House faster. The Sun, which has been calling on the Government to bring forward legislation of this sort for some time, says in a leading article this morning under the headline "Wreckers"—
"What a pity that the Government, after dawdling so long before deciding to use the

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law, are now taking a month over legislation that could and should have been pushed through in a week."
We are not following that extreme course. In so far as there is pressure from the outside, it is pressure that we should get ahead with the legislation, get it on to the Statute Book, and make the powers in the Bill effective, because the public are sick and tired of inflation. Indeed, many people in the country are genuinely alarmed at the recent acceleration in the rate of inflation after the success that the Government had in the earlier part of the year in nearly halving the rate over the previous 12 months.
In view of what has been said in the debate, and in view of the general lack of heat that has been generated, I gain the impression that there is a widespread acceptance of the need for introducing the legislation quickly, if it is to be done at all. I commend the Motion to the House.
5.11 p.m.
Mr. Reg Prentice: The country is indeed sick and tired of inflation. It therefore wants a General Election so that it can have a Government who will deal with inflation effectively.
My right hon. and hon. Friends and I greatly agree with the point made by the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) in his intervention. If there is to be an extension of the standstill for a 60-day period, there should be a debate for at least a full day before that is approved. We hope that the Leader of the House will take that point and realise that we fully support what the hon. Member said.
A number of arguments have been raised to which we have not had proper replies. The right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Sir Robin Turton) very properly talked about the procedure for securing guillotine Motions. The Chief Secretary said that he did not want to appear to be obstinate or stiff-necked. Even if he did not want to appear that way, he certainly succeeded in giving a very good facsimile of it. The proper
procedure should be followed. I speak for many hon. Members when I say that an Opposition should not automatically oppose guillotine Motions, but the procedure should be followed and agreement sought, wherever possible.
The main point is that the Motion is hopelessly inadequate in view of the size of the problems we are discussing. The Chief Secretary said that we need not concern ourselves with the rough edges. That is a strange doctrine for anyone sitting on the Treasury bench, or indeed for any parliamentarian, to advance. The Committee stage of any important Bill is supposed to deal with rough edges.
It is not merely a question of rough edges. We are talking about a whole series of very different subjects each of which affects millions of people—the effectiveness or otherwise of the prices controls that are proposed; the extent of the limitations on incomes and the situation of the agricultural workers, the hospital workers, and other low-paid workers about whom the Government continually allege that they are concerned. We wish to discuss adequately the question of the application of this policy to dividends and to rents, also its effect, or lack of effect, on housing and on land. There is the very important question of the apparent contradiction between this legislation and that on the European Communities.
Even if only a few hon. Members speak on each of the subjects and even if every speech is reasonably brief, each of these subjects requires a debate of a few hours. There will not be adequate time under the proposed timetable properly to debate matters of this great importance. In view of that, and in view of the Chief Secretary's inadequate reply, I recommend my right hon. and hon. Friends to divide against the Motion.
Question put:—
The House divided: Ayes 298, Noes 266.

Division No. 8.]

AYES

[5.15 p.m.

Adley, Robert

Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

Benyon, W.

Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

Balniel, Rt. Hn. Lord

Berry, Hn. Anthony

Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Biffen, John

Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

Batsford, Brian

Biggs-Davison, John

Astor, John

Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

Blaker, Peter

Atkins, Humphrey

Bell, Ronald

Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

Awdry, Daniel

Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

Boscawen, Hn. Robert

Bossom, Sir Clive

Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

More, Jasper

Bowden, Andrew

Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury

Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

Braine, Sir Bernard

Hannam, John (Exeter)

Morrison, Charles

Bray, Ronald

Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

Mudd, David

Brewis, John

Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

Nabarro, Sir Gerald

Brinton, Sir Tatton

Haselhurst, Alan

Neave, Airey

Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

Havers, Sir Michael

Nicholls, Sir Harmar

Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

Hawkins, Paul

Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

Bruce-Gardyne, J.

Hayhoe, Barney

Nott, John

Bryan, Sir Paul

Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

Onslow, Cranley

Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus, N&M)

Heseltine, Michael

Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

Buck, Antony

Hicks, Robert

Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

Bullus, Sir Eric

Higgins, Terence L.

Osborn, John

Burden, F. A.

Hiley, Joseph

Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby)

Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

Page, John (Harrow, W.)

Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray & Nairn)

Hill, James (Southampton Test)

Parkinson, Cecil

Carlisle, Mark

Holland, Philip

Peel, John

Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

Holt, Miss Mary

Percival, Ian

Cary, Sir Robert

Hordern, Peter

Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

Channon, Paul

Hornby, Richard

Pike, Miss Mervyn

Chapman, Sydney

Hornsby-Smith, Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

Pink, R. Bonner

Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

Howe, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

Pounder, Rafton

Chichester-Clark, R.

Howell, David (Guildford)

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Churchill, W. S.

Howell, Ralph (Norfolk. N.)

Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

Hunt, John

Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Proudfoot, Wilfred

Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Iremonger, T. L.

Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

Cockeram, Eric

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Quennell, Miss J. M.

Cooke, Robert

James, David

Raison, Timothy

Coombs, Derek

Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

Cooper, A. E

Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

Cordle, John

Jessel, Toby

Redmond, Robert

Cormack, Patrick

Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

Costain, A. P.

Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

Rees, Peter (Dover)

Critchley, Julian

Jopling, Michael

Rees-Davies, W. R.

Crouch, David

Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

Crowder, F. P

Kaberry, Sir Donald

Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

Dalkelth, Earl of

Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine

Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

Kershaw, Anthony

Ridsdale, Julian

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Kilfedder, James

Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen.Jack

Kimball, Marcus

Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

Dean, Paul

King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

King, Tom (Bridgwater)

Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

Digby, Simon Wingfield

Kinsey, J. R.

Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

Dixon, Piers

Kirk, Peter

Rost, Peter

Dodds-Parker, Douglas

Kitson, Timothy

Russell, Sir Ronald

Drayson, G. B.

Knight, Mrs. Jill

St. John-Stevas, Norman

du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

Knox, David

Scott, Nicholas

Dykes, Hugh

Lambton, Lord

Scott-Hopkins, James

Eden, Rt. Hn. Sir John

Lamont, Norman

Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

Lane, David

Shelton, William (Clapham)

Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

Le Merchant, Spencer

Simeons, Charles

Emery, Peter

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Sinclair, Sir George

Eyre, Reginald

Lloyd, Rt.Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'field)

Skeet, T. H. H.

Farr, John

Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

Fell, Anthony

Longden, Sir Gilbert

Soref, Harold

Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

Loveridge, John

Speed, Keith

Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

Luce, R. N.

Spence, John

Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

McAdden, Sir Stephen

Sproat, lain

Fookes, Miss Janet

MacArthur, Ian

Stainton, Keith

Fortescue, Tim

McCrindle, R. A.

Stanbrook, Ivor

Foster, Sir John

McLaren, Martin

Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)

Fowler, Norman

Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

Fox, Marcus

Macmillan, Rt.Hn. Maurice (Farnham)

Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

Fraser, Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

McNair-Wilson, Michael

Stokes, John

Fry, Peter

Galbraith, Hn. T. G. D.

McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

Gardner, Edward

Maddan, Martin

Sutcliffe, John

Gibson-Watt, David

Madel, David

Tapsell, Peter

Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

Maginnis, John E

Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

Glyn, Dr. Alan

Marten, Neil

Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)

Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

Mather, Carol

Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

Goodhart, Philip

Maude, Angus

Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

Goodhew, Victor

Maudling. Rt. Hn. Reginald

Tebbit, Norman

Gorst, John

Mawby, Ray

Temple, John M.

Gower, Raymond

Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

Gray, Hamish

Mills, Peter (Torrington)

Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

Green, Alan

Mitchell, Lt.-Col.C. (Aberdeenshire, W)

Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

Grieve, Percy

Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

Tilney, John

Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

Moate, Roger

Trafford, Dr. Anthony

Grylls, Michael

Molyneaux, James

Trew, Peter

Gummer, J. Selwyn

Money, Ernie

Tugendhat, Christopher

Gurden, Harold

Monks, Mrs. Connie

Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin

Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

Monro, Hector

van Straubenzee, W. R.

Hall, John (Wycombe)

Montgomery, Fergus

Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

256

257

Vickers, Dame Joan

Wells, John (Maidstone)

Woodnutt, Mark

Walder, David (Clitheroe)

White, Roger (Gravesend)

Worsley, Marcus

Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

Wiggin, Jerry

Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

Wilkinson, John

Younger, Hn. George

Wall, Patrick

Winterton, Nicholas

Walters, Dennis

Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Ward, Dame Irene

Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

Mr. Bernard Weatherill and

Warren, Kenneth

Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

Mr. Walter Clegg.

NOES

Abse, Leo

Ewing, Harry

Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

Albu, Austen

Faulds, Andrew

McBride, Neil

Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

McCartney, Hugh

Allen, Scholefield

Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)

McElhone, Frank

Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

McGuire, Michael

Ashley, Jack

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

Mackenzie, Gregor

Ashton, Joe

Foley, Maurice

Mackie, John

Atkinson, Norman

Foot, Michael

Mackintosh, John P.

Bagier, Gordon A. T.

Ford, Ben

Maclennan, Robert

Barnes, Michael

Forrester, John

McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

Fraser, John (Norwood)

McNamara, J. Kevin

Barnett, Joel (Heywood & Royton)

Freeson, Reginald

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

Beaney, Alan

Galpern, Sir Myer

Marks, Kenneth

Benn, Rt. Hn Anthony Wedgwood

Garrett, W. E.

Marquand, David

Bennett, James(Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Gilbert, Dr. John

Marsden, F.

Bidwell, Sydney

Ginsburg, David (Dewsbury)

Marshall, Dr. Edmund

Bishop, E. S.

Golding, John

Mayhew, Christopher

Blenkinsop, Arthur

Gourlay, Harry

Meacher, Michael

Boardman, H. (Leigh)

Grant, George (Morpeth)

Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

Booth, Albert

Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

Mendelson, John

Bottomley, Rt Hn. Arthur

Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

Mikardo, Ian

Boyden, James(Bishop Auckland)

Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

Millan, Bruce

Bradley, Tom

Hamilton, William (Fife, W )

Miller, Dr. M. S.

Brown, Robert C. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne, W.)

Hamling, William

Milne, Edward

Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen)

Brown, Ronald(Shoreditch & F'bury)

Hardy, Peter

Molloy, William

Buchan, Norman

Harper, Joseph

Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

Hattersley, Roy

Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

Healey. Rt. Hn. Denis

Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

Cant, R. B.

Heffer, Eric S.

Moyle, Roland

Carmichael, Neil

Horam John

Murray, Ronald King

Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

Oakes, Gordon

Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

Huckfield, Leslie

Ogden, Eric

Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

Hughes, Rt. Hn, Cledwyn (Anglesey)

O'Halloran, Michael

Clark, David (Colne Valley)

Hughes, Mark (Durham)

O'Malley, Brian

Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

Orbach, Maurice

Cohen, Stanley

Hughes, Roy (Newport)

Orme, Stanley

Coleman, Donald

Hunter, Adam

Oswald, Thomas

Concannon, J. D.

Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

Padley, Walter

Corbet, Mrs. Freda

Janner, Greville

Paget, R. T.

Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

Palmer, Arthur

Crawshaw, Richard

Jeger, Mrs. Lena

Pannell, Rt Hn. Charles

Cronin, John

Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

Pardoe, John

Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

Parker, John (Dagenham)

Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

John, Brynmor

Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

Cunningham. G. (Islington, S.W.)

Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

Perry, Ernest G.

Dalyell, Tam

Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

Darling, Rt. Hn. George

Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

Prescott, John

Davidson, Arthur

Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Probert, Arthur

Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

Jones, Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn (W.Ham, S.)

Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

Davies, Ifor (Gower)

Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

Judd, Frank

Rhodes, Geoffrey

Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove)

Kaufman, Gerald

Richard, Ivor

Deakins, Eric

Kelley, Richard

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

Kerr, Russell

Roberts, Rt.Hn.Goronwy (Caernarvon)

Delargy, Hugh

Kinnock, Nell

Robertson, John (Paisley)

Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

Lamborn, Harry

Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Brc'n&R'dnor)

Dempsey, James

Lamond, James

Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

Doig, Peter

Latham, Arthur

Roper, John

Dormand, J. D.

Lawson, George

Rose, Paul B.

Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

Leadbitter, Ted

Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

Douglas-Mann, Bruce

Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

Rowlands, Ted

Dunn, James A.

Leonard, Dick

Sandelson, Neville

Dunnett, Jack

Lestor, Miss Joan

Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

Eadie, Alex

Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

Edelman, Maurice

Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

Short, Rt.Hn.Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

Lipton, Marcus

Short, Mrs. Renee (W'hampton, N.E.)

Edwards, William (Merioneth)

Lomas, Kenneth

Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

Ellis, Tom

Loughlin, Charles

Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

English, Michael

Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

Silverman, Julius

Evans, Fred

Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

Sillars, James

258

259

Skinner, Dennis

Thomas, Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff, W.)

White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

Small, William

Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

Whitehead, Phillip

Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

Whitlock, William

Smith, John (Lanarkshire. N.)

Tinn, James

Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

Spearing, Nigel

Torney, Tom

Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

Spriggs, Leslie

Tuck, Raphael

Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

Stallard, A. W.

Urwin, T. W.

Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

Steel, David

Varley, Eric G.

Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

Wainwright, Edwin

Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

Stoddart, David (Swindon)

Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

Woof, Robert

Storehouse, Rt. Hn. John

Wallace, George

Strang, Gavin

Watkins, David

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

Weitzman, David

Mr. James Hamilton and

Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

Wellbeloved, James

Mr. Tom Pendry.

Swain, Thomas

Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

Question accordingly agreed to.
Resolved,

That the following provisions shall apply to the further Proceedings on the Bill:—

Committee, Report, Third Reading and Consideration of Lords Amendments

1.—(1) The Proceedings in Committee shall be completed in three allotted days and shall be brought to a conclusion at the times shown in the following table:—

TABLE

Allotted day

Proceedings

Time for conclusion of proceedings

First day

Clause 1

11.00 p.m.

Second day

Clause 2—Amendments before subsection (2)

7.00 p.m.

Clause 2—Amendments before subsection (4)

11.00 p.m.

Third day

Remainder of Clause 2 and Clause 3

7.00 p.m.

Clause 4

9.00 p.m.

Remaining proceedings in Committee

11.00 p.m.

(2) The Proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading of the Bill shall be completed in one allotted day and shall be brought to a conclusion on that day at Nine o'clock, in the case of Proceedings on Consideration, and Eleven o'clock, in the case of Proceedings on Third Reading; but if there are no Proceedings on Consideration of the Bill, Proceedings on Third Reading shall be brought to a conclusion at Six o'clock.

(3) The Proceedings on Consideration of Lords Amendments shall be completed in one allotted day and shall be brought to a conclusion at Five o'clock on that day.

2. Standing Order No. 43 (Business Committee) shall not apply to this Order so far as it relates to Proceedings in Committee, on Consideration or on Third Reading of the Bill.

Proceedings on going into Committee

3. When the Order of the Day is read for the House to resolve itself into Committee on the Bill, Mr. Speaker shall leave the chair without putting any question, notwithstanding that notice of an Instruction has been given.

Order of Proceedings in Committee

4. No Motion shall be made to postpone any Clause, Schedule, new Clause or new Schedule.

Conclusion of Proceedings in Committee

5. On the conclusion of the Proceedings in Committee on the Bill the Chairman shall report the Bill to the House without putting any Question.

Dilatory motions

6. No dilatory Motion with respect to, or in the course of, Proceedings on the Bill shall be made on an allotted day except by a Member of the Government, and the Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith.

Extra time on allotted days

7.—(1) On an allotted day paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 3 (Exempted business) shall apply to the Proceedings on the Bill for one hour after Ten o'clock.

(2) Any period during which Proceedings on the Bill may be proceeded with after Ten o'clock under paragraph (7) of Standing Order No. 9 (Adjournment on specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration) shall be in addition to the period under this paragraph.

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261

(3) If an allotted day is one to which a Motion for the adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 stands over from an earlier day, a period of time equal to the duration of the Proceedings upon that Motion shall be added to the period during which Proceedings on the Bill may be proceeded with after Ten o'clock under this paragraph, and the bringing to a conclusion of any Proceedings on the Bill which, under this Order, are to be brought to a conclusion on that day shall also be postponed for a period equal to the duration of the Proceedings on the Motion.

Standing Order No. 13

8. Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of public business) shall not apply on an allotted day.

Private Business

9. Any private business which has been set down for consideration at Seven o'clock on an allotted day shall, instead of being considered as provided by the Standing Orders, be considered at the conclusion of the Proceedings on the Bill on that day, and paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 3 (Exempted business) shall apply to the private business for a period of three hours from the conclusion of the Proceedings on the Bill, or, if those Proceedings are concluded before Ten o'clock, for a period equal to the time elapsing between Seven o'clock and the completion of those Proceedings.

This paragraph shall not apply to an allotted day on which Proceedings on Third Reading of the Bill are to be brought to a conclusion at Six o'clock or Proceedings on Consideration of Lords Amendments are to be brought to a conclusion at Five o'clock.

Conclusions of Proceedings

10.—(1) For the purpose of bringing to a conclusion any Proceedings which are to be brought to a conclusion at a time appointed by this Order and which have not previously been brought to a conclusion, the Chairman or Mr Speaker shall forthwith proceed to put the following Questions (but no others), that is to say—

(a) the Question or Questions already proposed from the Chair, or necessary to bring to a decision a Question so proposed (including, in the case of a new Clause or new Schedule which has been read a second time, the Question that the Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill);

b) the Question on any amendment or Motion standing on the Order Paper in the name of any Member, if that amendment or Motion is moved by a Member of the Government;

c) any other Question necessary for the disposal of business to be concluded; and on a Motion so moved for a new Clause or a new Schedule, the Chairman or Mr Speaker shall put only the Question that the Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill.

(2) Proceedings under sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph shall not be interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of the House.

(3) If, at Seven o'clock on an allotted day, any Proceedings on the Bill which, under this Order are to be brought to a conclusion at or before that time have not been concluded, any Motion for the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 (Adjournment on definite matter of urgent public importance) which, apart from this Order, would stand over to that time shall stand over until those Proceedings have been concluded.

(4) If a Motion for the adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 stands over to Seven o'clock on an allotted day, or to any later time under sub-paragraph (3) above, the bringing to a conclusion of any Proceedings on the Bill which, under this Order are to be brought to a conclusion on that day at any hour falling after the beginning of the Proceedings on that Motion shall be postponed for a period equal to the duration of the Proceedings on that Motion.

Supplemental orders

11.—(1) The Proceedings on any Motion moved in the House by a Member of the Government for varying or supplementing the provisions of this Order shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion one hour after they have been commenced, and the last foregoing paragraph shall apply as if the Proceedings were Proceedings on the Bill on an allotted day.

(2) If on an allotted day on which any Proceedings on the Bill are to be brought to a conclusion at a time appointed by this Order the House is adjourned, or the sitting is suspended, before that time no notice shall be required of a Motion moved at the next sitting by a Member of the Government for varying or supplementing the provisions of this Order.

Saving

12. Nothing in this Order shall—

(a) prevent any Proceedings to which the Order applies from being taken or completed earlier than is required by the Order, or

(b) prevent any business (whether on the Bill or not) from being proceeded with on any day after the completion of all such Proceedings on the Bill as are to be taken on that day.

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263

Re-committal

13.—(1) References in this Order to Proceedings on Consideration or Proceedings on Third Reading included references to Proceedings, at those stages respectively, for, on or in consequence of re-committal.

(2) On an allotted day no debate shall be permitted on any Motion to re-commit the Bill (whether as a whole or otherwise), and Mr Speaker shall put forthwith any Question necessary to dispose of the Motion, including the Question on any amendment moved to the Question.

Interpretation

14. In this Order—

'allotted day' means any day (other than a Friday) on which the Bill is put down as the first Government Order of the Day provided that a Motion for allotting time to the Proceedings on the Bill to be taken on that day either has been agreed to on a previous day, or is set down for consideration on that day;

'the Bill' means the Counter-Inflation (Temporary Provisions) Bill.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  COUNTER-INFLATION (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL
  [1ST ALLOTTED DAY]
  Considered in Committee.
  [Miss HARVIE ANDERSON in the Chair]

  COUNTER-INFLATION (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL
    Clause 1

      DURATION OF SECTION 2
      5.28 p.m.
      Mr. Reg Prentice: I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 1, line 5, at beginning to insert:
      '(1) This Act shall come into force thirty days after the date on which it is passed.
      (2) Her Majesty may by Order in Council at any time before the expiration of the period mentioned in subsection (1) above, substitute any longer period the Minister considers necessary so as to enable a voluntary agreement to be concluded with the Confederation of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress'.
      The First Deputy Chairman (Miss Harvie Anderson): With this Amendment we take the following Amendments:
      No. 2, in page 1, line 7, leave out 'ninety' and insert 'thirty'.
      No. 3, in page 1, line 7, leave out
      'with the date on which this Act is passed'
      and insert 'on 6th November 1972'.
      I understand that it would be for the convenience of the Committee also to discuss the following Amendments:
      No. 4, in page 1, line 9, at beginning insert:
      'Subject to the details of the second stage of the counter-inflation proposals having been published'.
      No. 5, in page 1, line 9, leave out subsection (2).
      Mr. Prentice: It would be for our convenience and that of the whole Committee to discuss these five amendments together.
      The purpose of the first amendment is to seek postponement of the operation of the Bill for 30 days or for a longer period if necessary so that the Government could make a further attempt at reaching voluntary agreement with the CBI and with the TUC. The other
      266
      Amendments are variations on the same theme.
      The Opposition are desperately anxious to avoid the deepening conflict which we see arising from the operation of the Bill in its present form in accordance with the timetable laid down in Clause 1. We are seeking a constructive alternative to that and, even at this late stage, holding out a lifeline to the Government by which they can seek a more constructive alternative to the policy on which they are embarked.
      That is the attitude we have been taking to this measure ever since it was announced. On Second Reading we voted against the Government, not because the Labour Party is opposed to an agreed policy on prices and incomes—indeed, we believe that an agreed policy is essential to the wellbeing of the country—but because we hold the Government principally responsible for the degree of inflation from which the country has been suffering and because the Bill in its present form is likely to lead to a widening gulf between, on the one hand, the Government and, on the other, the Trades Union Congress and the millions of people it represents. Therefore, the Bill will make an agreed solution more difficult to achieve.
      I start by making an appeal to the Minister. The Committee is entitled to a clearer statement about the way in which the Government propose to use the standstill which the Bill will achieve. There has been talk of phase 1 and phase 2. We are entitled to know the Government's plans for preparing phase 2 and how they see the relationship between phases 1 and 2. Whatever plans the Government are making are public business. Whatever information they can give to the country, should be given sooner and not later. If ever a situation demanded the open government which the Government promised, it is this situation. The Government's plans for dealing with the longer term should not leak out piecemeal over the coming weeks. The Government should share their thinking with the Committee and the country, and should start this afternoon by telling us more about the way they wish to use the time provided by Clause 1.
      Ministers are constantly making two contradictory statements. On the one

      267
      hand, they say that they propose to introduce a more permanent measure and that the temporary measure now in front of the Committee is to buy time to make preparations. On the other hand, they say that they want to resume talks with the CBI and the TUC. That is double talk. It is time Ministers came clean and stopped talking with the degree of humbug we have heard in the recent past.
      For example, last night the Prime Minister at the Guildhall used these words:
      "The Government is now working on proposals for the next phase to present to Parliament and we shall stand ready to discuss them, and wherever possible agree them, with the two sides of industry."
      This afternoon, the Leader of the House in moving the timetable Motion said—and I took a note of his words—that if agreement eludes us it will be necessary to proceed with the longer-term statutory measures that the Government have in mind. It is dishonest for Ministers to say, as the Prime Minister did last night, that they want to talk with the two sides of industry unless they are prepared to say what they are ready to do to make such a resumption of talks more likely to succeed. It is humbug to pretend that they want to talk while they are pursuing policies which make the resumption of talks less likely.
      This has been the sequence of events. When the Government started talks with the CBI and the TUC they decided at the outset that they would not make the basic changes of Government policy that would clearly be necessary if the talks were to be successful. The Government went through the motions of the talks, possibly hoping that an element of extreme good luck would enter into them and enable the Government to bring something off, but they were not prepared to make the basic shifts in policy necessary to make the talks successful. Now, although the Government say that they want further talks, they still refuse to contemplate the changes of Government policy which are necessary to make those talks successful.
      Mr. J. Bruce-Gardyne: The right hon. Gentleman has frequently referred to basic changes in policy which are required. Is it his view that a Government should be prepared to make
      268
      themselves answerable in their policy directions to the CBI and the TUC in priority to the House of Commons?
      Mr. Prentice: My view is that the Government are responsible to the House of Commons and cannot therefore be expected to negotiate the details of legislative policies with outside bodies. I will deal with that precise point later in my remarks if the hon. Gentleman will bear with me.
      If the Bill goes through unamended—
      Mr. Nicholas Ridley: The right hon. Gentleman's answer to my hon. Friend surprised me. He affirmed that he thought the Government should be responsible to the House of Commons for the details of legislation, whereas hitherto he advocated that the Government should be prepared to negotiate with the TUC and the CBI and to concede to them on policies which have been approved by the House of Commons and Acts which have received the Royal Assent during this Parliament. Surely there is a contradiction between the right hon. Gentleman's answer and what he said earlier?
      Mr. Prentice: I am delighted to have aroused the interest of the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley). I intend later to develop these points. My thesis is that the Government have pursued policies which have stoked up inflation. The charge against the Government is not simply that they have failed to keep prices down, but that they have put prices up as a deliberate policy. They have therefore created a situation in which it is unrealistic for them to ask the TUC and the CBI to bale them out. The Government are responsible for the situation which they have created which has led to the difficulties of people of good will, both in the CBI and the TUC, who would have liked to have an agreement if the situation had been different. That is not to say that the Government should negotiate every policy with the CBI and the TUC, but, if they want the CBI and the TUC to co-operate in fighting inflation, the Government must first set the scene so that there is a realistic background against which they can open talks with the other parties.
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: In the past the Government have negotiated with lame ducks and have then come to the House and persuaded hon. Members, including my right hon. Friend, to agree. There is nothing new in it.
      Mr. Prentice: There are many inconsistencies in the Government's attitude and in the attitude of Government supporters.
      The key point to be considered is that if the Government have put themselves in a position in which they cannot realistically reach agreement with the CB1 and the TUC, that situation will become worse week by week as the measures in the Bill take effect throughout the country. We are considering a period of perhaps 90 or 150 days—a period beginning I am not quite sure when, but perhaps in a couple of weeks' time. In other words, we are thinking of a period up to the end of February or the end of April or thereabouts. Let us consider the effect of the Bill during that period in terms of the point raised in the amendment, namely whether the Government will be in a better or a worse position to have constructive talks with the two sides of the industry.
      First, I suggest that during this period the freeze on incomes will operate unfairly, and will be seen to operate unfairly. I do not wish to anticipate the discussions which we shall be having tomorrow on particular groups of workers, such as the agricultural workers, hospital workers and others, but I must point out that the unfair treatment of groups of workers such as those I have mentioned—and I could go through a whole list of them—is bound in the coming months to cause justifiable resentment as those workers see their situation being controlled by the freeze.
      It is no use Ministers saying that one of their three main objectives in beginning the talks was to help the lower paid when the first results of their policy is to postpone a modest improvement—and many of us would say a too-modest improvement—in the position of agricultural workers and others. Nor can the Government expect to have the good will of women workers, most of whom are housewives as well, if one of the effects of the Bill is to postpone any progress
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      towards equal pay for equal work during the period under discussion.
      The unfairness of the impact of the Bill on incomes will make it much more difficult for the Government to get any kind of constructive agreement with the trade unions. I repeat a point which has been constantly made in debates of this kind that in talking about agreement with the trade unions we are talking not about agreement with a half-dozen TUC General Council representatives but about a package which will be acceptable to millions of wage earners throughout the country and to their wives who from day to day must do the shopping.
      Another reason why the Bill as it stands will lead to a widening gap and less likelihood of constructive talks is its ineffectiveness on prices. I do not want to go into the subject matter of later amendments, but wish to draw attention to the impact of this aspect of Government policy on TUC thinking. I quote from the statement issued a few days ago by the TUC Economic Committee:
      "The legislation is at its weakest or nonexistent in precisely the key areas where statutory control, as urged by the TUC, is most needed."
      It goes on to draw attention to the fact that basic foods such as meat, fish, fruit and vegetables will be allowed to escape control; that rent increases are to operate and are to be enforced on unwilling local authorities; and that the price of houses and land is not subject to any control. The statement continues:
      "This lax attitude to many of the most important elements in the cost of living of workpeople and pensioners is in stark contrast to the rigorous controls to be imposed on negotiated wages and salaries."
      We shall develop these points on later amendments, but I wish to underline this reaction from the TUC Economic Committee, members of which were engaged in the talks with the Government, since it emphasises the point that the policy in the Bill will make it more difficulty for the Government to resume talks, even if they seriously intend to do so.
      5.45 p.m.
      Thirdly, I suggest that the gap between the thinking of the TUC and the general public, on the one hand, and the Government, on the other, will widen in the three

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      or five months ahead because Government policies will still go on pushing up the cost of living in the way they have over the last 2½ years. I will not go over again the catalogue of Government policies which has increased prices in the period since June, 1970, but I wish to emphasise that many of those policies are due to continue in the coming months and many will lead to a higher cost of living next April.
      If what we are discussing is a standstill period on incomes and on some prices for the period to the end of April, let us bear in mind that in April value-added tax is due to take effect; that in April another round of rent increases is due under the Housing Finance Act; and that there is to be another increase in the cost of school meals. In other words, during the very period under discussion Government policies will continue to increase the cost of living just as they have done over the last 2½ years.
      In this amendment we are seeking a constructive alternative. We are arguing that there should be a further attempt by the Government to obtain an agreed solution with the CBI and TUC. We are not pretending that this is a simple topic or that any government of this country or any other country in the democratic world have yet succeeded in making a complete success of agreed policies in fighting inflation; it is an incredibly difficult topic on which none of us can be sure of having the precise answers. But we are saying that if the Government go ahead on the lines indicated in this legislation, it will make a difficult situation in Britain much more difficult than it has been or than it needs to be. We are saying that, instead, the Government should set out on a new path.
      We believe that the new path to be taken by the Government should include the following points. First, the Government immediately should announce that they will cancel the big rises which are due in the coming months and which flow directly from their own decisions. I repeat that we are considering particularly VAT, rent increases under the Housing Finance Act, school meal charges, the impact of entry into the Common Market on food prices and many other matters which lie within the direct control of the Government.
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      Secondly, the Government should announce that they accept as a permanent feature of our legislation some degree of statutory control on key prices. There are many countries which have embarked on policies of statutory control to a greater or less extent, without necessarily coupling those controls with similar controls over incomes. This is an important area of policy which was argued in the talks by the TUC representatives. We think that they were right so to argue and we believe that the Government should accept the necessity of such a course.
      Thirdly, we believe that the Government should announce—and this might require a new Finance Bill at an early date rather than that it should wait for next year's Finance Bill—cancellation of the enormous tax reliefs to well-to-do people, reliefs which are due to take effect also, in the main, next April. The Government are heading for a position next April when there will be large increases in the cost of living and a further redistribution of wealth in favour of those already best off, and this is all to take effect towards the end of stage 1 of the statutory policy on which they have embarked.
      I turn to deal with the point on which I was questioned by two hon. Gentlemen opposite. The Prime Minister was tackled about some of these matters when he made his statement on 6th November, and he said this in reply to points made by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition:
      "Many of the other matters mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman—I must frankly say this to him—are political. They are not matters which directly affect the discussions which we have been having. Every Government has the right to carry through its policy."
      The point that needs to be made is that none of us argues that any democratically-elected Government can negotiate with other bodies, however important, the details of legislation. But if they are to ask those other bodies to cooperate with them in important public policies, the Government have to decide on the merits of the case to pursue policies themselves which are helpful and which set the scene. That is not an argument for a corporate State. It is an argument that the Government cannot avoid

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      responsibility for having themselves embarked on policies making it difficult for this to work—
      Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's difficulty. Can he explain to us, because I think that there is a conflict here, why he called just now for the suspension or abolition of the value added tax? This House approved provisions relating to VAT. If the Government are now to say that they intend to go back on that decision because that is what Mr. Vic Feather or Mr. Campbell Adamson wants, surely it is indisputable that they will be giving priority to those gentlemen over this House.
      Mr. Prentice: My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) has drawn my attention to the provision in paragraph 4(1) of the Schedule:
      "This Act, and any provision made under this Act, shall have effect notwithstanding anything in any other Act or statutory provision passed or made before this Act."
      The point is that this House having passed certain legislation can then amend that legislation, and the Government having decided that they need to change their policy can ask this House to change it. This Government have had a lot of practice at bringing forward measures contradicting earlier policies. They should not do it, in the words used by the hon. Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne), because Mr. Vic Feather or Mr. Campbell Adamson asked them to. They should do it because the situation demands it.
      With respect, it is not I who am in difficulty. It is the Prime Minister. He said:
      "They are not matters which directly affect the discussions which we have been having."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th November, 1972; Vol. 845, c. 630.]
      That is the most absurd statement that one could possibly make. Of course the discussions were about inflation, and of course VAT and the Housing Finance Act affect prices and, therefore, inflation. They could not possibly be kept out of the discussions.
      If the Government themselves have been pursuing policies which stoke up inflation and if they now want a new approach to the problems of inflation, they have to make the first moves. They
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      should have made them when starting the discussions. They should have announced the changes of policies and then gone to the CBI and the TUC asking for their co-operation. Then there would have been a background against which trade union leaders might reasonably have asked their members for a degree of sacrifice. Every one of us would have supported an approach of that kind. But if trade unionists are expected voluntarily to forgo wage increases that they could have obtained through negotiation with their employers, if people on average wages or lower than average wages are asked to forgo voluntarily what they could have attained, there have to be major economic and social policies which set the scene for making an appeal to them to do so.
      I give one more quotation to the Committee. I take it from the article in today's Daily Mirror by Mr. Geoffrey Goodman. I hope that hon. Gentlemen opposite will recognise that the Daily Mirror has been very kind to them—perhaps too kind—throughout this controversy. Mr. Goodman wrote:
      "In fact, ultimately, it was the Government who couldn't deliver the goods—not the TUC. It was the Government who couldn't deliver a political deal which might have made some modest inroads into the position of wealth and privilege in Britain. They couldn't deliver it because, in the end, the Tories are understandably sustained by wealth and privilege."
      That is the key to the argument between the two sides of the Committee. If the Government were to create a climate in which they could get the co-operation of trade unionists throughout Britain, they had to abandon some of their most basic doctrinaire objectives—
      Mr. John Pardoe: The right hon. Gentleman will recall that this is not the first occasion on which a Government have tried to institute a prices and incomes policy and to do a deal with the TUC. Why were his Government unable to do this deal? Was it because they were committed to the wealthy elements in society—or perhaps to other elements in society?
      Mr. Prentice: There are a number of points to make. One is that the policy pursued by the Labour Government was partially effective for some time. I choose those words deliberately. It was not as effective as those who designed it wished

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      it to be. But it was an attempt worth making and it had some effect on the rate of inflation—probably as much effect as any attempt made by almost any other Government in the free world in recent years. When the Conservative Government came to office there were, for example, the National Board for Prices and Incomes, the Consumer Council and many other instruments which could have been used effectively if the Government had had the will to continue the fight against inflation. However those instruments were abandoned by the Conservatives. The Conservative opposition to our policy on prices and incomes was totally negative and destructive. In these debates we are puting forward constantly the need for an agreed policy and suggestions of constructive alternatives which should be followed to get an agreed policy.
      We suggest in this amendment that the Bill should not operate for at least 30 days while a further attempt is made to get agreement, and we suggest in outline many of the shifts of policy required if such an attempt can be expected to succeed. But it means that, if Ministers were to do something of this kind, they would have to stop some of their doctrinaire policies and start to govern in the interests of the whole nation. Perhaps that is too much to expect of a Conservative Government.
      That is the real test that the Government face. If this Bill goes through in its present form and, in a month or two, we have before us a longer-term statutory policy put on the Statute Book without the agreement of the TUC and the CBI, we are afraid that the very serious situation that we face at the moment will go from bad to worse in the months ahead.
      [Sir ROBERT GRANT-FERRIS in the Chair]
      6.0 p.m.
      The Minister for Trade and Consumer Affairs (Sir Geoffrey Howe): In view of the variation in the grouping of the amendments which has meant that we are discussing all five together, it will probably be for the convenience of the Committee if I respond immediately to some of the points made by the right hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice).
      So far as the right hon. Gentleman spoke about the subject matter of the
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      amendments, he spoke reasonably enough, the subject matter being concerned with the timing and duration of the standstill. In that context, it is important to be clear that the Government put forward this legislation specifically as a temporary Measure, in order to provide time in which to bring forward the longer-term policy about which the right hon. Gentleman asked.
      The provisions about duration in Clause 1 are no more and no less than are necessary to meet that limited purpose. The duration of Clause 2, which is the heart of the Bill, is limited in the first instance to 90 days from the date on which the Bill is passed, but it can be extended up to a total of 150 days.
      It may help if, for the sake of argument, I outline what will happen if the Bill passes through all its stages by the end of the month. In that event, the 90 days will start from the end of November and, unless an order is made, will end at about the end of February. If it becomes necessary to extend that period, an Order in Council will have to be made at least 30 days previously and will have to be approved by affirmative Resolutions of both Houses. On that timetable, the extension cannot extend beyond the end of April.
      These provisions relating to the 90 days and the option of a 60-day extension have not been plucked arbitrarily from the air. They follow from the circumstances which make the Bill necessary, and I suggest that they are entirely consistent with its purpose.
      I should explain what the five amendments, if accepted, would do. Amendment No. 1, to which the right hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) principally spoke, would insert a deliberate gap between the enactment of the Bill and the coming into force of its provisions. If that Amendment were accepted, a period of at least 30 days would elapse between enactment and coming into force. Indeed, the coming into force might be postponed indefinitely
      "so as to enable a voluntary agreement to be concluded with the Confederation of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress."
      I suggest that that reflects a total disregard of the circumstances in which the Bill has had to be introduced, following the breakdown of discussions between

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      the Government, the TUC and the CBI. It is precisely because those talks, sustained and carried on over a period of months, unfortunately ended in disagreement on 2nd November that the Government considered that it was necessary to introduce statutory measures, in particular this Bill, as a means of securing an immediate standstill.
      Amendments Nos. 2 and 3, which are also being considered, are more modest. They accept the need for an initial period of standstill with statutory backing and seek in different ways, which I will not try to analyse, to shorten its length.
      Amendment No. 3 does that by making the initial 90-day period start from 6th November, not from the date of enactment. To remove any possible misunderstanding, I should remind the Committee that the standstill is already in operation, as it has been since my right hon. Friend's statement. The 6th November is the base line by reference to which it operates and by reference to which the powers in Clause 2 are expressed. Therefore, Amendment No. 3, which would write 6th November into Clause 1, would not affect that aspect of the matter one way or the other. It would mean that in the computation of the 90 days we would have to subtract the period occupied by the Bill's Parliamentary progress. So, in different ways, Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 would have the effect of seriously limiting the time available for the preparation of the second stage of the policy.
      Mr. Sydney Chapman: Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that if Amendment No. 1 is accepted, and thus the Act does not come into force until 30 days after enactment, and Amendment No. 2 is accepted so that it can last initially for only 30 days, and Amendment No. 3 is accepted, which says that the period shall begin from 6th November, 1972, then, taken together, these must be considered wrecking Amendments because Amendment No. 3 makes nonsense of Amendments Nos. 1 and 2? It is saying that we must wait 30 days and the 30 days will be up.
      Sir G. Howe: I accept the way in which my hon. Friend puts the matter. If Amendments Nos. 1, 2 and 3 were
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      taken together they would have the effect of virtually eliminating the standstill period altogether.
      Mr. Prentice: I should be happy if the right hon. and learned Gentleman would make a judicious selection. He does not have to take them all. He may take whichever he prefers so that he can get back to having talks with the TUC and the CBI.
      Sir G. Howe: I will come back to that point. I thank the right hon. Gentleman for having proffered these Amendments as alternatives. I shall explain why I cannot accept any of the proffered alternatives.
      Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 would go far towards making an extension of the 90 days inevitable if we were to accept them.
      Amendment No. 4 is directly related to the second stage and seeks to require that details are published before an extension can be sought.
      Amendment No. 5 would remove the power to prolong the standstill.
      It is in that context that I turn to the crucial question of the prospects for a resumption of the tripartite talks on which the right hon. Gentleman spent some time. The circumstances of the breakdown in the talks, in the Government's view, are not and were not of the kind which would preclude their resumption at a future date. The Prime Minister, towards the end of the talks, put forward far-reaching and imaginative proposals, designed to help the lower paid and to restrain inflation.
      They included a commitment to 5 per cent, growth for two years, a threshold provision, to some extent overlooked, which would largely have safeguarded employment incomes against a rise in the cost of living; action on pensions and rents, which helps those who most need it; direct action on nationalised industry prices; control on dividends; and a system of tripartite control, if necessary with statutory back-up power, of pay and prices at levels which would help to reduce the rate of inflation and benefit the lower paid. I suggest that is a package which would bear any impartial scrutiny. But the trade unions' representatives at the talks felt unable to accept this for continuing discussions. As my hon. Friends have pointed out, they seemed

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      to want the Government to reverse policies—indeed, the right hon. Gentleman has argued in the same sense—in industrial relations, rents, and, indeed conditions of Community membership, if not the principle of Community membership. All those provisions, which were being required at that stage in the talks, related to matters specifically approved by Parliament only a short time before.
      Mr. Healey: The right hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware that the Schedule specifically provides that this legislation shall override any earlier legislation passed, including the European Communities Act and the Housing Finance Act, should this be relevant, as it certainly would be, if, according to the timetable, the other 60 days were asked for, carrying the Bill's effect well beyond the beginning of April next year when the second series of rent increases under the Housing Finance Act is required. We cannot understand why the Government should have wrecked the talks with the TUC by refusing to consider the matter, only to introduce a Bill which overrides all the legislation which at that time the Government refused to discuss.
      Sir G. Howe: The right hon. Gentleman has got it wrong. The Government did not wreck and accepts no responsibility for wrecking the talks with the TUC. The talks were conducted on all sides in an attempt to arrive at agreement. It is not helpful to go beyond what I have said, save that the right hon. Gentleman points out that the Bill provides for setting aside those matters of contention to which I have referred. The Bill does no such thing. Paragraph 4 of the Schedule contains the power, by Order, to make changes of that kind; but it does not follow that the Government would have been right at that point in the talks to reverse those legislative provisions which had been specifically and rightly approved by the House only a short time before.
      The right hon. Member for East Ham, North suggested that the talks broke down, quoting Mr. Geoffrey Goodman, because the Government could not deliver—I quote him without having his exact words before me—and had created policies deliberately designed to put up prices. That is an astonishing and unacceptable argument to have advanced by the Oppo-
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      sition when we recall that at the moment when the Labour Government introduced legislation designed to secure a standstill, so far were they from being able to deliver conditions which would restrain the cost of living that they were simultaneously introducing large increases in taxes across the board—a penny on a pint of beer, fourpence on a gallon of petrol and a 10 per cent, increase in purchase tax. It hardly lies in the right hon. Gentleman's mouth to advance that kind of argument in the context in which he did. I suggest that the Prime Minister was rightly and understandably unable to accept the pre-conditions then being attached to the talks, and I am confident that the great majority of the people believe that at that point in time he was right.
      Mr. Healey: This is a very imporant matter. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that paragraph 4 of the Schedule provided simply that previous Acts and provisions should be overridden by Order. It does, but it also states:
      "This Act, and any provision made under this Act, shall have effect notwithstanding anything in any other Act or statutory provision passed or made before this Act".
      In other words, in so far as the Housing Finance Act or the European Communities Act lead to price increases which are inconsistent with the provisions of the Bill, those price increases would not take place. If that is not what it means, what does it mean?
      Sir G. Howe: What it means is that, in so far as the Bill has that kind of effect, it has the effect set out in the first part of paragraph 4 of the Schedule. The right hon. Gentleman must not impute too much to the measure itself. The relevant provisions begin to operate under Clause 2(5):
      "The appropriate Minister may apply this section—".
      The scope and impact of the legislation is defined by orders that will be made under those provisions. That is broadly the pattern, and that is why I made the qualification when the right hon. Gentleman first put the point to me.
      Mr. Healey: I just want to be absolutely clear that the Government are now giving themselves the power to override any sections of Acts regarding rents or of

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      the European Communities Act which could be contrary to their desire to reduce inflation. These are precisely the powers the Government refused to discuss when they had the discussions with the TUC. Whatever the Government may say, the TUC made it quite clear in the statement published after the breakdown of the talks that it regarded that as the issue on which the talks broke down, and it said so.
      Sir G. Howe: The right hon. Gentleman is confusing two quite different arguments. There is the question of what in fact, as a matter of law, the Bill renders possible or does not render possible. There is the separate question of policy as to what was or was not under negotiation at the time of the talks until 2nd November, and what is or is not under negotiation in the future. To say that because the Bill contains a certain provision as a matter of law, therefore the Government are making a dramatic change of posture in relation to policy, is to misrepresent what is going on. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Indeed it is. The legal effect of the provisions in paragraph 4 of the schedule is to make it clear that no earlier Act would preclude the making of an order on the giving of the appropriate notice. The way in which, and the extent to which, those powers should be used as a matter of policy is a separate matter. I have outlined the position that we reached in the talks as they ended on 2nd November, and I shall come in a moment to how the matter should be approached in the future.
      The need for provisions of the length laid down, with the extension that is possible, is the reason why it would be wrong deliberately to defer the starting date of the standstill by reference to the possibility of resuming tripartite talks, as the amendment suggests. It is the Government's intention that the standstill should be as short as practicable, but the whole object of the exercise would be frustrated if the powers to enforce the policy were postponed for a moment longer than was strictly necessary. The Bill must be enacted, and its powers must be made available with all deliberate speed. That is precisely why, with almost breakneck speed, the House accepted a time-table Motion earlier this afternoon. To delay the commencement of the Bill's coming into force would prejudice the prospect of working out fair and longer-
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      term proposals, which the right hon. Gentleman recognises to be necessary. It it our intention and our confident hope that the standstill will be observed on a voluntary basis.
      A great deal of co-operation has been forthcoming from all those concerned—the CBI and the retail consortium of the trade associations covering the manufacture and distribution of food products. On the very day that the standstill was announced, representatives of the retail consortium assured my Department that they would urge their members to cooperate fully with the policy, in the recognition that such action would best serve the objective to which the retail trade attaches high importance, as we all do, namely, moderating the rate of inflation. Obviously the Committee recognises that the retailers are in the front line, in a sense. The standstill involves the acceptance by them of substantial obligations and involves them in meeting inquiries from members of the public, and the overwhelming majority of them have responded magnificently.
      Many manufacturers have stated publicly their understanding of the objective of the policy, and they, too, are cooperating. A number have withdrawn price increases that were in the pipeline.
      6.15 p.m.
      It remains essential that the standstill policy should be put at the earliest possible date within the appropriate statutory framework that the Bill provides. The powers must be brought in as soon as possible, and they must be available for a reasonable period if they are to achieve their objective. First, there must be time for the important long-term questions to be resolved. Second, the standstill must be clearly established to assure those concerned that we are finally breaking away from the spiral of continued inflation.
      The right hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) asked about the prospect of talks now and in the future. Talks are important, certainly. The Prime Minister made that clear last night. The position was outlined in the White Paper, and it remains as it was there set out. The Government concluded that it was necessary, in the absence of agreement, to bring in statutory measures, and that, because the main legislation would take time, there would be a standstill for

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      an interim period. One has then the first statement necessary in the absence of agreement.
      The Prime Minister repeated last night the Government's continued readiness to embark on talks, so there is no question of our being urged to bridge any gulf. We are anxious that no gulfs should be wider than they are. There is no question of our needing a lifeline, but the prospect of talks must be looked to, in conjunction with the need for a firmly established statutory foundation for the present standstill policy. The Bill is the first essential stage.
      The sponsors of Amendment No. 1 cannot expect us to postpone action to an indefinite date in the hope of a resumption of talks spread over several months. Beyond the initial 90 days it is not possible to lay down a detailed time-table That is why we have the provision for an extension should that prove necessary. I assure the Committee that the provisions of the Bill will be continued no longer than is needed to present and secure acceptance of more enduring arrangements.
      I was asked to say something about the nature of the next stage of the policy. The Government will give Parliament and the public their proposals for the second stage as soon as possible. These proposals are now being urgently developed. The standstill and the Bill are an essential foundation for that further stage, giving time to consult and work out the longer-term measures. I assure the Committee that progress will be as speedy as possible.
      I appreciate the objective of Amendment No. 4, which seeks to bind the Government to make public their proposals before the initial period is extended. It would not be right for the Government to accept amendments which might possibly put the longer-term policy at risk by requiring it to be completed in undue haste. It would be wrong for our hands to be tied in that way.
      It is not possible for me, at this stage of our proceedings on the Bill, to say more about the second stage or the detailed machinery that it might involve. However, I remind the Committee—this is by now well known—that the objectives will be those which are common to all
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      parties in the tripartite talks. They are not far from the objectives to which the right hon. Gentleman referred earlier—the maintenance of a high rate of growth, an improvement in real incomes, moderation in the rate of inflation, and a relative improvement in the position of the lower-paid and the pensioners.
      Mr. Tam Dalyell: On a purely factual question, is the Minister aware that the very efficient manager of a Department of Social Security office did not know until 48 hours ago whether the pensioner's lump sum included payments to widows or was confined to old-age pensioners? Was any consideration given to lump-sum payments to widows, many of whom feel themselves to be in just as considerable need as old-age pensioners are?
      Sir G. Howe: I note the hon. Member's point. I canot say what is the state of knowledge of the person of whom he is speaking, but I shall look at the matter. To sum up, the Government greatly regret the breakdown in the tripartite talks. We believe, and still believe, as the Prime Minister made clear last night, that voluntary agreement is superior in every way to statutory control.
      If, therefore, the other parties wish the talks to be reopened the door remains open. We are prepared to recommence whenever it appears fruitful to do so. We cannot delay the Bill or our preparations for the future in the simple hope that there can be a resumption of talks, as Amendment No. 1 urges us to do. That would be totally inconsistent with our responsibilities and it would be unjustified in the light of what has been said so far.
      If the Government are to govern, as they have been doing in the interests of the nation, it is imperative that, having failed so far to reach a voluntary understanding on controlling the rate of inflation, we must now take prompt—I emphasise "prompt"—action to achieve the agreed objectives and to secure the growth which is in everyone's interests. It is on that basis that I invite the Committee to reject the amendments.
      Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: We were not in the least surprised to hear the Minister reject the amendments. Since he came to the House in 1970 the Minister has been in charge of a number of controversial Bills and it seems

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      almost a perpetual motion that he should be replying to the debate. As far as I can recollect he has not yet acceded to any Opposition amendment.
      Mr. Sydney Bidwell: Or that side.
      Mr. Lyon: Indeed, or from the Government side. If he persists in his present style he will soon have the reputation of Mr. Never Know How. It would be unfortunate if that kind of reaction was likely to greet considered proposals from the trade union movement on the future of any incomes policy arising from our present impasse. We recognise that this Bill is a delaying action until the Government can produce proposals for a long-term incomes policy.
      Equally, we all recognise that an incomes policy cannot be acceptable, or accepted, unless it is widely accepted by the trade union movement as a whole—not just the negotiators in Downing Street and not just the TUC. The entire trade union movement must feel that it is basically fair. Whether an incomes policy is called a statutory policy, a voluntary policy, or a voluntary policy with some kind of legislative back-up, it will not be successful unless the broad range of trade unionists is prepared to accept it. It is in that light, therefore, that we should discuss Amendment No. 1.
      Is it possible for any particular policy to be acceptable if the Government's general policies antagonise trade unionists instead of reconciling them to any kind of moderate agreement? That is why the Opposition believe that the Government should remember their general legislative programme since 1970, when wanting to do a deal with trade unionists which involves the unions in a measure of sacrifice.
      There is no constitutional impropriety in saying that if there is to be a voluntary agreement it should be considered in the context of the whole legislation which has been enacted since June, 1970—legislation which has antagonised so many trade unionists, and has contributed to the overall increase in the cost of living which they and their wives have to meet.
      The Minister did not appear to appreciate that point in relation to rents. which will present a major problem to
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      any housewife whose husband faces a wage freeze. If there is to be a further increase next April under the fair rents scheme, this is clearly one of the issues which she and her trade unionist husband will be forced to consider and which will dictate whether she and he can give a measure of acceptance to the Government's proposals.
      From my reading of paragraph 4 of the schedule I had thought that the Government were at least prepared to concede that it might be necessary either to postpone or simply to cancel any increase of rent rendered necessary under the fair rents scheme. However, the Minister rejected that idea, and almost suggested that there was no disposition in the Government to reduce the level of rents or at least to sustain them at their present level. Faced with that kind of attitude, we cannot even begin to achieve an incomes policy. There must be a measure of give and take if a coherent policy is to emerge from our discussions.
      I turn now to another aspect of the policy which arises on the amendment. The key issue on which the Downing Street talks broke down was the question whether it was right that there should be a voluntary policy in respect of incomes but a legislative framework in respect of prices. The TUC, for reasons which will be well known to the Committee, said that it was in no sense illogical that there should be a statutory prices policy and a voluntary incomes policy. The Government were unable to accept that view, claiming that it was impossible in a modern State to adopt a prices policy which could be effective. Yet, following the breakdown of talks, they have introduced a Bill one aspect of which relates to the control of prices for a period of up to 180 days. Thus, they are proposing to do, albeit for a limited period, what they had previously claimed was impossible in a modern State.
      In my submission, that indicates the nature of the confrontation which took place at Downing Street. There was not effective preparation for give and take on both sides, but the Prime Minister went to the talks with the intention of putting a prepared package before the TUC, and, if the latter were unable to accept it, there could be no kind of agreement. The TUC, realising the rigid

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      attitude which it had to face, decided that it could not take part in any meaningful negotiations. I agree.
      I was rather worried that the Prime Minister in his speech at the Guildhall last night was still presenting that attitude. He said that the Government were prepared to hold discussions with the TUC at any time, and that they would be bringing forward proposals which would shortly be unveiled for the trade unions to consider. In short, the trade unions would then be required to react to proposals which had been concocted in Whitehall. No one can hope to achieve a voluntary incomes policy on that basis. It must be worked upon by all interested parties—the CBI, the TUC and the Government—and will emerge only when there is a real disposition to negotiate on that basis. Unless the Government are prepared to enter discussions with the approach which I have outlined, they may as well abandon the search for a voluntary incomes policy. Such a policy cannot be dictated from on high. It must emerge slowly from beneath. Therefore, nothing will be lost by the short delay implied by the Amendment if we begin seriously to seek for some kind of acceptance from the trade union movement of a moderate long-term incomes policy, which will not be an instrument of economic management but an attempt to regulate the way in which we share out the national cake. That is the only type of incomes policy that I believe is likely to work, or, indeed, the only kind to which I could agree.
      6.30 p.m.
      Mr. Julian Ridsdale: I welcome the Government's policy change, because at long last we have something which will act on prices and which will in particular help pensioners and the lower wage earners, of whom I have many in my constituency.
      The weakness of the Opposition case, in which they ask for a voluntary policy, is that they—especially through their spokesman, the right hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice)—have not been able to answer to my satisfaction why, when they were in government, they themselves were not able to achieve a voluntary policy. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well the difficulties of reaching agreement with the
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      Trades Union Congress. I believe that agreement with the trade union leaders will only be reached when they realise that the country as a whole is demanding such a voluntary agreement.
      I know the comings and goings taking place in the committee, and how the right hon. Member for East Ham, North, throws across to the Government talks about VAT and putting up the cost of living, and other political jibes. People are becoming sick and tired of this kind of talk. They want representatives who speak for the nation and not necessarily for the party. I am certain that when we have such a spirit in this House we shall achieve voluntary agreement, and not before.
      It is pure hypocrisy for hon. Members on both sides of the Committee to think that we shall reach a voluntary agreement unless we have public support for it. In the short time since the policy we are discussing was introduced, I have found that there is public support for it. As public support grows for this policy, I have a feeling that some of the political issues made by hon. Gentlemen opposite will be made in a much quieter tone than at present. They will realise that the feeling in the country is, "We want to stop this inflation. We want to stop this continual rise in prices."
      I look upon the Opposition amendments as wrecking amendments, and I am certain that the pensioners and lower paid workers in my constituency would also consider them as such. In supporting a prices and incomes policy, I have publicly stated that ultimately—
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: Did the hon. Gentleman support the Labour Government?
      Mr. Ridsdale: —we may have to have a statutory policy. Nevertheless, I realise that everyone wants a voluntary policy if it is possible to achieve it. That is why I supported the voluntary prices and incomes policy in which the Government did their best to influence prices. Hundreds of millions of pounds have been spent in keeping prices down in the nationalised industries.
      Mr. Prentice: Will the hon. Gentleman explain whether he voted for value added tax? Did he vote for the Housing Finance Act? Does not he agree that these measures have increased the very

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      inflation which he says he is so anxious to remove?
      Mr. Ridsdale: I take up the right hon. Gentleman's comment about value added tax. I voted for VAT because I support going into the European Economic Community, and value added tax is part and parcel of European policy. I know that unless the Government are given the economic opportunities consequent upon entry into the Community, we shall not achieve the growth we require.
      If we had not had the opportunity, as we shall soon have, of going into the European Economic Community, I fear that we should have had a severe restriction of money supply, a deflationary policy and not the growth that the Government now aim for. A policy of growth must go hand in hand with the prices and incomes policy, which the Opposition are opposing. That is hypocrisy, and it is why I am pleased to oppose—
      Mr. Harold Walker: The hon. Gentleman keeps accusing the Opposition of hypocrisy. Why did he and his colleagues attack me and the Labour Government and vote against us consistently when we introduced similar legislation? Month after month I stood at the Dispatch Box, repeatedly assailed by the hon. Gentleman for doing what he is defending the Government for doing, and he has the nerve and impudence to accuse the Opposition of hypocrisy.
      Mr. Ridsdale: If the hon. Gentleman would refer to some of the speeches at that time he would not find a speech by the Member for Harwich opposing a prices and incomes policy. Such a policy is in the interests of the lower paid, the pensioner and growth.
      I am sorry that in opposing me the Opposition have harked back to previous debates. We are now quieter in our industrial relations than we have been in the past two years—or I hope we are. At least we are moving into a new phase, and I believe that in doing so the Government will have the support of the country. When they do, we shall be nearer to achieving a voluntary policy—not a statutory policy—with the trade unions. It is for that reason that I regard these as wrecking amendments.
      Mr. John Pardoe: I find myself in difficulty about the whole group of amendments. Some of them merit support; but the amendment moved by the right hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) does not. He admitted as much when at the beginning of his speech he said that the purpose of the amendments was to buy time for the search for voluntary agreement to be continued. That sounds sweetly reasonable. Is it not true that a voluntary agreement is better than a statutory policy? This seemingly obvious truth has been echoed backwards and forwards.
      On Second Reading, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said:
      "The statutory control of pay and prices is, in the minds of everyone in this House, a far less satisfactory way of managing our affairs than would have been a voluntary agreement."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th November, 1972; Vol. 845, c. 1007.]
      Not every hon. Member would agree. I do not believe that a voluntary agreement is desirable, possible, or should be worked for, or is inherently better than a statutory policy, or is sweetly reasonable. That is dangerous nonsense, and I have always believed it to be so.
      A voluntary agreement, had it emerged from the Downing Street talks, would have been a mere charade. A voluntary agreement among the CBI, TUC and any Government, Labour, Conservative or Liberal, would always be a charade. The idea that the talks should start again, as the right hon. Gentleman has suggested and as the amendment would allow, is an appalling prospect.
      Attempts to get a voluntary prices and incomes policy are futile because of the conflicting interests of the parties to the agreement. Those interests are so strongly conflicting as to make any agreement completely useless.
      The first duty of a trade union leader—and I speak as a paid-up member of the Association of Scientific, Technical and Managerial Staffs—is to obtain for his members the highest wages that his members' bargaining position will allow him to obtain. A voluntary agreement would be an agreement by a trade union leader to do less than that. Imagine a trade union leader saying to his members, I could have got you £10 a week or more, but, out of a combination of altruism, patriotism and my own desire to

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      be thought to be a good bloke by the readers of the Sunday Express, I decided that you should make do with £5". What would his members say to that? What would I say to Clive Jenkins? I would throw him out.
      We cannot ask trade union leaders to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. The same applies to management, directors and the CBI. The CBI is not a very representative body of anything, but, in so far as it is representative, it represents management in the capitalist system, and the job of management in the capitalist system, whether we like it or not—and some of us do not like it—is to maximise profits. To ask management to do less than that is to put them in danger of schizophrenia.
      Governments should not try to stop trade union leaders or management doing their jobs; they should seek to ensure that the power of their bargaining position is finite and not omnipotent. In other words, the Government should say to trade union leaders, "You may get what you can get, but if you get more than we believe the economy can stand, or more than the printing presses can keep up with, it will be taken back in higher taxes".
      I do not wish to foreshadow arguments which I hope to deploy later in favour of a fairly large number of amendments tabled by myself and my right hon. and hon. Friends about fiscal penalties for breaking some of the provisions in the Act. Governments have always used taxes as a measure against inflation, but they have never used them in a selective manner. What we need is a selective tax on inflation and on those who cause it.
      Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Has the hon. Gentleman noticed the recent report of the OECD, which shows a direct and precise correlation between tax increases and inflation in every country in Western Europe?
      Mr. Pardoe: I agree. There is a direct relationship between general increases in the total level of taxation and inflation. There is also a direct relationship between certain taxes and inflation, such as purchase tax and value added tax at 10 per cent. VAT at 7½ per cent, would be
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      unlikely to have any such effect. The hon. Gentleman should defend his Government's VAT policy rather better than merely saying that he supports it because we need it to get into the Common Market. We need it because it is a very good tax in itself, whether we go into the Common Market or not.
      The choice has never been between a voluntary policy and a statutory policy. It was always plain that a voluntary policy without sanctions would be no policy at all. Therefore, the choice surely is, and always has been, between the statutory policy called by another name and one called by its proper name. In case anyone should think that this is a matter of dreaming up new policies to fit the situation, I would point out that it is not. Belief in a statutory prices and incomes policy is nothing new for Liberals; we have favoured such a policy ever since we advocated a planned devaluation by means of the "crawling peg" in 1966. I see it today as a sine qua non in the floating of the pound, and I hope that the pound will continue to float for a very long time. We voted for this principle under a Labour Government, and we shall vote for it again under a Conservative Government, if necessary.
      A great deal has been bandied backwards and forwards about hypocrisy, and the fact that some hon. Members opposite said one thing when the Labour Party was in power and say another thing now. I propose to do precisely the same. I well remember an amendment—discused on 25th June, 1968—to the Labour Government's Prices and Incomes Bill. It sought to wreck the Bill. The Conservative Party, allied with the left wing of the Labour Party, destroyed that policy. We voted against the wrecking amendment, and I was accused in my constituency by the present Secretary of State for Trade and Industry of voting in that way because I was afraid of a general election and its consequences. After that vote, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Liberal Party said:
      "Positive Government intervention on pay and productivity backed by realistic sanctions is the proper price to pay for full employment."
      That is a view which I hold totally to this day.

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      I believe that the choice is between a statutory policy and no policy at all and that if we have no policy we shall drift to disaster. I am an advocate of a floating pound, but we must recognise that if we float the pound and allow internal inflation the consequences will be totally disastrous in terms of overseas trade. I spent four days last week—and I make no apology for this—at the Kwangchow Trade Fair in China renegotiating contracts which I had made in sterling in the spring in RMB, the people's currency, because the Chinese do not even want to split on the British currency. It is a salutary experience for any hon. Member to realise that the pound is held in such low regard as that.
      6.45 p.m.
      Those of us who have supported a floating pound must support a tough and statutory prices and incomes policy to ensure that we control inflation at home. Disaster is almost already here, because hourly wage rates are 17 per cent. higher than they were a year ago. If they are left to climb freely without statutory control, they will surely by about January reach about 20 per cent. higher than they were a year ago. That would inevitably lead to price inflation of at least 14 per cent. a year rather than the present 8 per cent. That would mean that a person retiring at 60 years of age with a pension of £1,000 a year would find that his pension was worth £60 in purchasing power on his 80th birthday. That is what it will do to savings and to pensioners, and it will do something to the political system of this country.
      Inflation always has political consequences. It is not true to say that it destroys civilisations, but it does destroy democracy. There is always at a time of raging inflation a cry for strong men and strong measures. I do not think that the Left should be too optimistic that it will be its strong men and strong measures which will be called for.
      In the name of social justice for the lower paid, in particular, and in the vital cause of stemming the tide of inflation, a statutory policy is absolutely essential. For that reason, I shall oppose the amendment, which still seems to be saying, "If only we could achieve a voluntary prices
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      and incomes policy". That would be the most disastrous thing we could achieve.
      Mr. Christopher Tugendhat: Before I entered the House I earned my living as a professional journalist. One of the most ego-boosting things which has happened to me since I came here is to realise the extent to which hon. Members on both sides sometimes depend upon the Press. I listened with particular interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe). It would have been charitable if, in addition to presenting the consistency of the Liberal Party, he had paid some tribute to the Economist, which provided most of the figures and examples which he produced. However, journalists often find that their work goes unattributed.
      Mr. Pardoe: I have already had an argument with the deputy editor of the Economist about the origin of these ideas. They stem from a pamphlet produced by Professor Michael Fogarty, who is the economics adviser to the Liberal Party, which was published before the first article appeared in the Economist on this scheme.
      Mr. Tugendhat: If the hon. Gentleman had listened to what I said, he would know that I was not talking about ideas but about figures and examples. He will find that what I say about figures and examples is true. I should not dream of entering into an argument about the origin of Liberal ideas.
      Although I do not intend to delay the Committee long, I will put before it a small batch of facts and figures which are relevant to this subject. One of the critical elements underlying any debate upon the Bill is one's interpretation of why the Downing Street talks broke down, not only in the immediate short term but in the background to them. Obviously it is a complex problem and this is not the time or the place to go into a full discussion of all the facts surrounding those events. However, it is important to understand the nature of the pay proposals which the Government were offering.
      The pay proposals of £2 and £2·60 have come in for a great deal of attack from some Opposition Members and some members of trade unions. The adequacy or inadequacy of the proposals

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      is a source of debate. Therefore, it might be interesting to compare what the Government were offering in the Downing Street negotiations with what the trade unions have been accepting during 1972.
      The source of my figures is the Library. I am extremely grateful for the research that it managed to do in a short time. I asked the Library to examine all the settlements that have been made between January and November, 1972, which have been settled on a pounds/pence basis rather than on a percentage basis. When one sees what the trade unions have been accepting during 1972, one realises that what the Government were offering was as attractive a package as the Government claimed it to be.
      The figures which I shall give are very simple. They relate only to minimum basic wage rates on minimum earnings for adult male workers on a pounds/pence basis. Between January and November there were 48 settlements of £2 or under involving 10,000 or more workers. The total number of workers involved in those settlements was 3,975,000. The Committee will agree that that is a substantial body of people. Those settlements of £2 or under were apparently accepted contentedly.
      I now come to the category of people who accepted settlements of £2 to £2·60. One finds in this category that there were 17 settlements involving 10,000 workers or more and the total number of workers involved was 2,504,000. Finally, there were 11 settlements between January and November at £2·60 or more, involving 2,234,000 people. Let us look at the figures. A substantial proportion of the settlements that took place during that period were for £2 or less, the majority of men involved—that is, 6,500,000 workers, or thereabouts if my rather sketchy arithmetic is right—accepted settlements of less than £2·60.
      Mr. John D. Grant: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the magical figure of £2 was not a Government offer but a maximum? There would have had to be negotiations about that figure in many industries. There was no guarantee that everyone would get £2 or £2·60. Will the hon. Gentleman note that the TUC and the whole of Fleet Street—he may like to comment on this as a former Fleet Street journalist, as I
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      am myself—was led to believe that £2 was negotiable up to the breakdown of the talks? That clearly was not an accident, it was design. That was crucial in the final talks.
      Mr. Tugendhat: The circumstances surrounding the Downing Street talks, as I think we both agree, are complex. I was not proposing to talk about whether the Government were offering something which was negotiable. I was endeavouring to put the Government's proposals, to use as neutral a term as I can find, in the context of what the trade union movement has been accepting. Regardless of the points which the hon. Gentleman makes, it seems that the £2 and the £2·60 were, on the whole, well in line with what the trade union movement, through the settlements which it has made during the year, has regarded as acceptable. The figures which I have produced put up a case which it would be difficult for trade unions who have made such agreements to dispute.
      Mr. Thomas Cox: I listened with great interest to the figures which the hon. Gentleman has given. Does he agree that they make a mockery of the repeated attacks which the trade union movement has suffered in recent months in the House of Commons from the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who blame all our inflationary problems on the wage demands of trade union workers? The hon. Gentleman has sabotaged that argument completely.
      Mr. Tugendhat: I am flattered to be told that I am able to sabotage the arguments of the Prime Minister, but I am sure that is not the case. My impression of the Prime Minister's argument and my impression of inflation is that the wage push has certainly been an important element. But I should not dream of arguing that wages were the sole cause of inflation. I have never done so. I think that the hon. Gentleman will find that the Government have never held to that view. Wages are an important element in inflation. Given the extent to which wages enter into costs of production, it has always seemed to me self-evident, but the figures which I have given show what the trade union movement has been accepting—which is only

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      part of the wider package which the Prime Minister was offering.
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: The figures which the hon. Gentleman has produced show that the trade unions have been more than reasonable if they are correlated with the fact that during the same period the Government agreed to a £2,800 a year increase, which represented a 39 per cent. increase and 58 per cent. increase in two years, to none other than the chairman of the Horserace Betting Levy Board who is not so essential to the wealth of the country as the miners, bricklayers, carpenters and others.
      7.0 p.m.
      Mr. Tugendhat: I agree that the Chairman of the Horserace Betting Levy Board is not as important to the country as the miners and the various other groups the hon. Gentleman mentioned. However, the person the hon. Gentleman has specified is only one, whereas there are—happily—a great many miners. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not suggest that the salary of the Chairman of the Horserace Betting Levy Board had the same impact on the national economy as a wage settlement for the miners.
      Mr. Lewis: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman challenges me. I go further. What about the Prime Minister's £20,000 a year plus his house, his car, his rent, and his rates? What about all the members of the Government and all the Members of Parliament? Now that we are going into Europe, tax-free expenses of £40 a day are to be paid to those going to the Prime Minister's European Parliament, to those who are lucky enough to get on to the band-wagon. Tax-free expenses of £25 a day will be paid to those who go to Strasbourg. Is not that inflationary? Tell the miners, the engineers, the old-age pensioners and the farmworkers that this Government and this Prime Minister who told them yesterday that they cannot get their measly few pounds will pay £40 a day tax-free expenses to all those Europeans that go to the European Parliament.
      Mr. Tugendhat: Fortunately, I am never at a loss for words. If ever I were,
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      I should hope that the hon. Gentleman would be kind enough to intervene in my speech, because that would be a great way to keep it going. However, an intervention by the hon. Gentleman has the disadvantage that it is difficult to remember the point that one intended to make next.
      We had been dealing with the kinds of settlement which the trade union movement has accepted during the course of this year. One hon. Member opposite asked whether the Government's package did not represent a reduction in real living standards during the course of the year. As journalists are being quoted rather a lot today, I draw attention to an interesting article in The Times last week by Mr. Peter Jay. Hon. Members will agree that Mr. Peter Jay, like his right hon. and distinguished father, is not known as one of the most enthusiastic supporters of the present Government and, indeed, has from time to time been critical of it.
      Mr. Peter Jay produced some interesting figures in his column last week suggesting that, in view of the various considerations the Government are putting forward, the real disposable incomes of people would be rising at 5 per cent. to 6 per cent. on an annual basis during the coming year. I quote from memory as I had not intended to refer to this article, but I think I am right. That is not quite as rapid as has been the case recently, but it is an impressive rate. As Mr. Peter Jay demonstrated, the principal benefit of this would have been felt, had the Government's package been accepted by the trade unions, by the lower-paid workers.
      Therefore, taking into account not only the settlements the trade union movement has accepted this year—I should be interested to hear how hon. Members react to those when they have had time to consider the figures—but also the wider implications of the Government's package, it can be said that it was an extremely attractive proposal in many ways and it is greatly to be hoped that the trade union movement will return to talks as soon as possible. This is an element which should be taken into account when the whole context of the Government's arguments are discussed on this Clause.
      Mr. James Sillars: One of my regrets is that the former Solicitor-General, the present Minister for Trade and Consumer Affairs, probably will not be in charge for the Government on a later clause. I am interested to hear the Government's reaction to the effect of that clause upon industrial relations.
      The Government published a Code of Practice which was a central feature of the Industrial Relations Act. Paragraph 71, in the important section on collective bargaining, states:
      "Freely conducted collective bargaining is a joint activity which establishes a framework for relations between management and employees. It requires from both sides a reasonable and constructive approach in negotiation, with due regard to the general interests of the community, and a determination to abide by agreements which have been made."
      I do not understand how the Government reconcile the Industrial Relations Code of Practice, in particular that portion which deals with collective bargaining, with the situation in which they place the farming industry. If the Government were to accept the amendment, they would have time to reflect upon the intensive damage they will do to industrial relations in the farming industry.
      During the debate on the time-table Motion my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) read an astonishing statement from an official of the Scottish National Farmers' Union to the effect that throughout the negotiations for the recent wage settlement the public interest had been taken into account in response to Government pressures and policy statements. Thanks to this measure, the management side of the farming industry cannot honour the agreement it has made voluntarily in accordance with paragraph 71 of the Industrial Relations Code of Practice.
      The Minister for Trade and Consumer Affairs laid great emphasis on the need to get an emergency measure through Parliament in the first place. The right hon. and learned Gentleman did not substantiate his case. In January of this year the Prime Minister, speaking in a major debate on unemployment and dealing with the problem of inflation and prices and incomes policy, said this in response to a cry from hon. Members on this side that he had joined the Tribune group in op-
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      posing the Labour Government's prices and incomes policy:
      "Yes, of course; that is why we have not pursued a compulsory policy."
      Later on he went on to explain that the Government were combating inflation:
      "Six months ago, prices were rising at an annual rate of 11 per cent. Over the last six months, the rate of price inflation has been brought down to 5¾ per cent."
      For the benefit of those of us who could not understand arithmetic the Prime Minister gave this explanation—
      "That is half as fast as it was a year ago…"—
      Later he said—
      "We have succeeded in bringing this about withiout using the machinery of statutory controls which the Labour Government used—statutory controls which stored up so much trouble for the future, as hon. Gentlemen opposite below the Gangway said at the time." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th January, 1972; Vol. 829, c. 1034–37.]
      That was a Tory Prime Minister endorsing the Tribune group. That was the position in January this year. When he went to the Tory Party Conference in Blackpool in October he did not at that time say anything greatly different from that.
      The Government have not, on this amendment, said that the Prime Minister's forecast of January has suddenly gone all wrong, or at which point it went wrong, or why the trend of which they were so very proud has suddenly turned into such a disastrous condition that they should go back on a fundamental part of their manifesto and introduce statutory controls of wages and not so much of prices.
      Mr. Pardoe: They were blown off course.
      Mr. Sillars: That remark takes me back to my Navy days. I think probably the Government have been in a force 8 gale and that the winds are getting worse for them.
      The amendment is a generous one, and I am not too happy about its being generous to this Government, but it gives them maximum flexibility to try again for a voluntary policy.
      I am not going now to develop my argument against the philosophy of the spokesman for the Liberal Party, the hon.

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      Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe), for probably later on we can come to that, but I disagree with him, in that we head for disaster if, in a capitalist society, we go for a statutory incomes policy of the strong, tough kind which he advocated.
      Mr. Pardoe: Prices.
      Mr. Sillars: If the hon. Member raises the question of prices I would say that there is a difference between the costs involved in prices and costs of labour. Prices are about inanimate entities, but wages affect a man's personality and his attitude to society, as well as his livelihood. If in a capitalist society we go for a statutory wages policy we inevitably involve ourselves in a totalitarian regime leading to totalitarian practices. That is the only way in which we could implement a statutory incomes policy.
      Millions of people like me think that it is immoral to interfere with one's basic right to sell one's labour, because, in the end, we have nothing but our labour to sell to make a living.
      Mr. Pardoe: While the hon. Member has every right to sell his labour in the market place for as much as he can get, does he think that he is right to combine with others to create a monopoly to do so?
      Mr. Sillars: That is a question we shall come to in greater detail during this Committee. It is one which raises fundamental questions which have to be answered, but one of the things the hon. Member does not seem to understand about the trade unions, and workers' assessments of themselves, is that we hold very dear our right to sell our labour. There are limiting factors, because there are subjective judgments which we make in relation to others in society. I am a fireman by trade. I have gone through the process of negotiating wage increases, and there has always been a subjective limitation on the price we put on our labour; at any given time we have been affected by what other people think is fair or unfair in relation to the wages paid to firemen. So while theoretically I retain the right to sell my labour for as much as I can, there are important subjective factors which tend to limit us and which tend to fit us into the jigsaw of civilised society.
      Mr. Thomas Torney: Would my hon. Friend not agree that the word "monopoly" is misused here? Would he not agree that there is a very real difference between monopoly in capitalism as we know it in this country, with mergers and monopolies of markets to gain fantastic profits for a very few individuals, and the practice of working people of joining together in trade unions to try to get a decent standard of living, decent wages, decent hours and decent fringe benefits? I would not call that monopoly, but if anyone does call it monopoly I agree with it.
      Mr. Sillars: I do not call that monopoly, either, in the sense that the spokesman for the Liberal Party used the word. However, we seem to be on a different tack altogether at the moment. None the less, that is a very important question which will be raised, perhaps, when we come to phase 2, and when we get the White Paper and the fuller measures we can discuss this important and philosophic question posed for Government and Parliament. We are discussing only an amendment to a Bill for temporary provisions just now.
      [Mr. E. L. MALLALIEU in the Chair]
      7.15 p.m.
      As I was trying to say before I was sidetracked, if the Government were to accept this amendment they would have time to think again and could start renegotiating with the TUC.
      A lot of nonsense has been talked about the offence to parliamentary government by the Government's negotiating with the TUC and the CBI. We are told Parliament is thus left out of this equation. As I understand it, the Government, when making up their mind when drafting legislation, negotiate with outside bodies; even when legislation is going through the pipeline, they continue to negotiate with outside bodies. In the reorganisation of the National Health Service in Scotland the trade union movement was consulted and negotiated with, and the doctors were consulted, before the legislation was published. Last night we debated here the subject of Northern Ireland; the Government will negotiate in detail with a number of bodies which have no direct representation here. So

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      it is a lot of nonsense to say that negotiating with the TUC and the CBI somehow or other offends the instinct of parliamentarians. In the final analysis it is the House of Commons which will determine whether the results of the negotiations are acceptable or unacceptable.
      If the Government were to start to renegotiate, the prerequisite would be recognition on their part of the responsibility they have for the present difficult situation we face. During Committee on the Industrial Relations Bill we were often referred to speeches made by Labour Party spokesmen, by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. Harold Wilson). It would be very good for the Government to reread their immediate pre-election speeches, and also the speeches and policies set out in the House immediately after 1970.
      The Prime Minister, in the flush of victory, and understandably so, at his Tory Party Conference in 1970, after he had won the election, said, after mentioning what the Chancellor of the Exchequer was going to do:
      "On top of this will come an announcement of the details of our policy in connection with the redistribution of public expenditure—our policy on housing, on education, on social security and on relief of poverty. We shall announce our proposals on defence."
      Later he described these as of "major consequences". This is the point I am trying to make to the Government—that they were of major consequence and that their effects on the attitude of many people are still working through today. The Government know better than anyone that just prior to the General Election the argument they used, and it was in their manifesto, was that wages were chasing up prices. They told people that they, the Government, would concentrate on prices, but they made very little mention of wages.
      I dug out the election address of a man whose career I follow with great interest, the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward Taylor) who is well known in the Conservative Party in Scotland. In his election address he mentioned prices control and he said:
      "Labour promised control of prices. What has happened? Ask any housewife or pensioner. The biggest single cost is the £3,000 million extra tax burden plus the effects of devaluation. What can be done? By cutting
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      taxes, by stopping waste and extravagance (abolishing the Land Commission and other spendthrift bodies) and by encouraging real competition we can control Mr. Rising Price."
      No mention there whatever of the supposed rôle of wage increases in an inflationary situation.
      It was only after the election was won that the Government shifted to saying that wages were an extremely important factor. The Government had stoked people's expectations that the return of a Conservative Government meant control of prices—and with not so much emphasis on wages. The mental attitude which has given rise to many of our problems was created by pre-election propaganda and immediate post-election propaganda.
      Mr. Ray Carter: Is my hon. Friend aware that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Carthcart (Mr. Edward Taylor) was constantly inspired by the then Leader of the Opposition? Is my hon. Friend also aware that on 5th June, 1970 in Birmingham at the height of the Election campaign the present Prime Minister said:
      "When four years ago the compulsory wage freeze was first introduced I said, 'We believe that compulsion is wrong and we want to move along the path of voluntary action, of consultation, of encouragement for the individual'."
      Mr. Sillars: The quotation which my hon. Friend has made fits the strategy of the Conservative Party at the General Election, which was to concentrate on voluntary price restraint and not to mention wages or, if one did mention them, to say that wages were chasing prices. The quotation is helpful to my speech.
      We have had unfair Budgets, divisive social policies and insecurity created by rising unemployment. All these factors have emerged from Government policy in the last two and a half years. The Government should ask themselves whether they are partly responsible—I will be generous and not say entirely responsible—for the situation they are now trying to tackle, and, if it means making new political decisions in the light of changed political circumstances, they should alter their current policies. This applies particularly to rents. Unless the Government remove the rent increases which have been imposed under the Housing Finance Act, especially in Scotland, they will get nowhere with a prices and

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      incomes policy. The downfall of the Labour Government's prices and incomes policy can be traced to the Labour Government forgetting all about rents until it was too late. If political circumstances change, political decisions have to be changed.
      We are trying to give the Government an opportunity to look again before launching themselves into a permanent prices and incomes policy. However comprehensive, just and sensible the second-phase long-term legislation may be, peoples' attitudes to it will be conditioned by their experience of the Counter-Inflation (Temporary Provisions) Act, as it will be. If the Bill we are considering tonight is grossly unfair, and if people have to pay higher rents while their wages are pegged, the Government will be faced with mounting hostility to the long-term programme. We are trying to see that the Government do not commit suicide in the next two or three months. We are saying that as parliamentarians, although, as a Labour politician, I do not mind. What is important is not whether Labour gets power or the Conservatives keep power; it is that ordinary people will be hurt by this legislation. If life can be made better for the ordinary working-class family by persuading the Government not to commit suicide, it is my duty, as a Socialist politician, to say so.
      I ask the Government not to commit suicide but to make life a little better for the people we represent. The next round of talks may be more fruitful, especially if the Government recant their previous policies.
      Mr. Patrick McNair-Wilson: The last occasion on which I had the pleasure of following the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars) was after his maiden speech. I enjoyed his speech tonight just as much as I enjoyed his maiden speech. He is, however, picking up a habit—which, unfortunately, many of us in this building have—of having rather better memories than judgment. In considering the Bill we must be objective. We are talking about one more attempt to solve a problem which has baffled governments since the war, certainly the Labour Government and, to an extent, this Government.
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      We may ask ourselves why the problem is so hard to solve and whether there is not something wrong with the whole economic and monetary system of the world which makes human beings slaves of money rather than making money the slave of human beings. Be that as it may, we can play only with the cards that we are dealt, and we are faced tonight yet again with trying to find a solution which will basically increase prosperity without destroying the economy.
      When Mr. Harold Macmillan was Prime Minister he spoke of trying to establish a plateau and from that plateau going to even greater prosperity. We have had brakes, accelerators, freezes and so on, but no Government have been able to say truthfully that they have fulfilled all their pledges and promises because, sooner or later, they have had to grapple with this problem which seems to be endemic and so far has defied solution.
      The amendment would merely postpone taking action, and we cannot afford to make that postponement. The tragedy of inflation is that not only does it eat away prosperity at home but it also has disastrous effects on the esteem in which the country is held throughout the world. Whether we like it or not, the £ sterling has had a terrible few weeks, and the health of the £ will not be improved by inspiring further doubt in people's minds. We have to take some hard measures quickly, and to accept the amendment would merely perpetuate that doubt which would rapidly be reflected on the foreign exchanges. From that point of view we must make an early decision.
      It may be asked why we have to have the Bill at all. It is sterile ground to go back on what was written on whose tablet of stone because no one can put his hand on his heart and say that he has met his electoral promises. The root fact is that the structure and management of our society are today totally different. There are essentially two order systems, the one order system which is "work or starve" and the other which is "work or go to Siberia". Ever since I have been an adult I have been searching for the middle ground which provides both the opportunity and the framework in which to operate. The two order systems have been overtaken. Capitalism has been overtaken by events, and we reject

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      Communism. We have therefore had to try to find another way of controlling our society. I do not find it strange that the Government should rely on the law to do that. Indeed, the Government's whole ethos since they came to power has been on the basis of an agreement between two adult individuals being binding in law. That was the credo behind the Industrial Relations Act and it has been behind much other Government thinking. I do not, therefore, regard the move towards law to regulate the economy of the country as anything to cry about. Indeed, I regard it as a natural way of managing what is now a highly sophisticated and complicated society. But this legislation in itself has only a fairly short life.
      For this reason I believe that the Opposition amendments would be dangerous. We have the problem of doubt and uncertainty and also the problem of making the legislation something more than the very temporary attempt that it should be.
      7.30 p.m.
      The hon. Member for South Ayrshire used the words "rough justice". I do not entirely disagree with him since I believe that, in a way, this is rough justice—but it is quick and it is necessary. However, it must not be allowed to continue indefinitely, for a number of obvious reasons. For example, the effect it will have on the nationalised industries will be traumatic. Already our steel industry, whose prices have for some years been interfered with, is producing the cheapest steel in the world and yet is making a loss on almost every ton it sells. Therefore, the effect on industry in terms of the economy—and also the effect of the Community rules which will have to be adhered to when we join the EEC—make the measure essentially a temporary one. We look forward later to the perhaps longer-term solutions to be produced by the Government to take account of the effect on nationalised industries.
      The Bill faces reality. It faces the fact that the order system on which societies have been built no longer exists. We must try hopefully to find an agreement which takes account of everybody's views. Governments, of course, have a duty to govern. They do not have to apologise for their policies. We go to
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      the country and put forward our policies, and if people do not like them they can do the other thing—and frequently they do. But, when elected, we have the responsibility to discharge our duties as a government.
      This Government is faced with a difficult, perhaps even critical, situation. It is not the first Government to have been faced with exactly the same situation. After all, when the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) was Chancellor of the Exchequer he had to introduce an extremely deflationary Budget. Let us remember that deflation is as unattractive as inflation. Therefore, I believe that the sooner we get started with this legislation and the sooner it becomes operative the better. The people of this country have asked for action and they deserve to get it.
      Mr. Tam Dalyell: The hon. Member for New Forest (Mr. Patrick McNair-Wilson) raised a taboo subject, a subject which has been in the minds of many of us; namely, whether we should be having this discussion at all were it not for the position of the pound in the money markets of the world. Since the hon. Gentleman raised this subject, perhaps I could make a few comments—though I appreciate that one must be careful, discreet and guarded when talking of these matters.
      Many of us are extremely interested in the work which has been given to the Committee on which all the countries of the world are represented under the chairmanship of the Executive Director of the Bank of England, Jeremy Morse. It is not irrelevant to say that, perhaps in the long term, the results of the Morse Committee will determine whether we go on having this kind of discussion every two or five years, or whatever the period might be.
      Since this question has been raised I should like to ask the Chief Secretary what representations the Government have made to the Morse Committee. It is also relevant to ask whether that committee which is considering international finance is looking at the kind of problems which have given rise to this Bill. I put that in the form of a question and leave it there.
      Many hon. Members wish to speak in this debate, and I wish to take up the

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      topic on which I intervened in the speech of the Minister for Trade and Consumer Affairs. I refer to the situation as it affects widows. The right hon. and learned Gentleman on several occasions referred to action in respect of pensioners. I am asked by widows, during my weekend surgeries, "Action is being taken to give £10 to old-age pensioners. Cannot widows also be given some protection?" We all have our views on whether the sum provided for old-age pensioners is adequate, wise or just, and some of us would like to see the pensioner protected far more.
      I should like to ask the Government whether the situation of those who draw widows' pensions was also considered. Should they not also be protected? If not, why not? I do not wish to carp too much, but I was a little shocked when I asked this question to find that no clear answer was given. Perhaps this is an indication of how hastily the Bill has been spatchcocked together. It is an emergency operation. This is the kind of question which the Government Front Bench should be able to answer fairly easily. I will give way now if the Chief Secretary wishes to intervene.
      The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Patrick Jenkin): Since the hon. Gentleman's question dealt with national insurance, obviously my right hon. and learned Friend felt some hesitation in trying to answer it off the cuff. I will deal with the subject of the widows when I wind up.
      Mr. Dalyell: I did not mean to be tortuous about the matter, and I look forward to hearing in the wind-up a clear exposition on whether widows will get some kind of lump sum in December, and, if not, the reasoning behind it. If old-age pensioners deserve to be protected, then so do other categories, of whom the widows are the largest. I will leave the matter there.
      Mr. John Biffen: I hope that it will not be thought to be a joke in bad taste if I indicate that I shall support the Government in resisting the amendment because, on the whole, I regard its terms as thoroughly bad. As the Minister of Trade and Consumer Affairs said, the amendment would make a substantial nonsense of the Bill, though I must admit that that would not be my
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      major objection. My major objection is that these amendments seek to enthrone the desirability of Government consultation with the TUC and CBI as some major factor in setting the course of economic and social policy. I wish for a few moments to dwell on that consideration.
      There is a widespread assumption that the Conservative Parliamentary Party was waiting anxiously for a successful conclusion to the Chequers-Downing Street talks, resulting in the Prime Minister bringing, in the words of the poet, the good news from Aix-la-Chapelle that some agreement had been secured. It was no doubt felt that the Prime Minister would tell the House, "I have an agreement authorised by Mr. Victor Feather and Mr. Campbell Adamson which will inaugurate a new era in the economic management of our affairs." I have no doubt that that news, just like the scrap of paper brought back by Neville Chamberlain, would have been greeted with widespread cheers and demonstrations in the House. Nonetheless, there would have existed tremendous unease on these benches, and it is right and proper that that unease should be given some expression this evening on the amendment, which is the most appropriate occasion for it to be expressed.
      First, the reality of these talks lies in the fact that they are in the form of a discussion between the Government and the TUC. To all intents and purposes, in the power relationships which have to be weighed in these circumstances the CBI does not add up to a row of beans. It can be discarded. The Retail Consortium has charmingly allowed itself to be formed by a former Conservative Chief Whip, but even that body is not able to affect the outcome of these decisions one wit, compared with the weight and significance of the TUC. Therefore the first question that we have to ask ourselves is whether the six members of the TUC General Council who happen to be on the NEDC can answer for the General Council. The second question is whether the General Council can answer on behalf of its members.
      The right hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) spoke about the trade unionists' leaders asking for sacrifices. I wonder what conditions could have been negotiated at Chequers, at

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      Downing Street or anywhere else which would have resulted in Mr. Clive Jenkins asking for sacrifices from his members. We live in a world of total unreality if we assume that there exists in the TUC a disposition or an ability to make the kind of deal which we are sometimes led to assume that it possesses. I do not believe that it is there. But I do not think that anyone can gainsay the ability of the Government to deliver their side of the bargain.
      The reason why I have reservations about a return to the tripartite approach to the management of our economy is that, to quote Aneurin Bevan I do not have to look into the crystal; I can read the book. I can read how far they got in the Downing Street declaration of 26th September. That tells me what was in prospect.
      I have to ask my right hon. and hon. Friends whether this is the kind of policy that they were elected to promote. Do they think that they were eleced to promote a policy which had to bear the imprimatur of Jack Jones and Hugh Scanlon? The concessions—I regard them as concessions—that were made in this direction are both substantial and, for me, unacceptable. Out of consideration of time and the fact that other hon. Members wish to take part in the debate, and out of consideration of the fact that this topic, if not eternal, may well be with us for some time and that probably I shall have future occasions when I can return to them, I name only three reservations.
      First, let us consider what was proposed for the nationalised industries. Even my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest (Mr. Patrick McNair-Wilson), who was most generous if not authoritarian in his support for the Government's proposals, conceded that there was much to be objected to in the way in which we were proposing to continue with substantially increasing the operating deficits of the nationalised industries. I did not think that one was likely to see the day when the nationalised industries were subject to more direct political involvement and control from a Conservative Government that had ever happened under their predecessors. Yet though we may be silent in our witness to it, we know in our hearts that that is so. The finances and
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      day-to-day control of the nationalised industries have been subject to more intervention from the Government over the past two years than at any time during the period in office of the preceding Government. That development, unacceptable to me, to Conservatives up and down the country, and certainly to many Conservatives in this House, was intensified by the decisions of 26th September.
      I was given only the consolation prize, as it were, of discovering in the process that we had managed to get ourselves well and truly across our obligations under the European Communities Act and. being a person who at least travels hopefully, if he never arrives, I was glad to accept this small advantage which at least enabled the House to assert a further limit to its legislative competence than we had hitherto suspected remained with us. However, that was a modest consolation for the general proposition that as a result of the Downing Street declaration we were committed to further imprudent techniques in financing the nationalised industries.
      Secondly, the whole principle of the Government, never mind what agencies they expect to undertake the unpleasant sub-contracting business, was to get themselves involved in having to continue to lay down the right pattern of rates of pay for various jobs in the economy. I have never been so attracted and fascinated by the skills of politicians in this House and of those who advise them in Whitehall as to believe that that was a subject to be conditioned by so much central direction and control. But it was evident for all to see that the measures elaborated in the Downing Street declaration of 26th September foresaw a situation of increasing Government intervention to determine the pattern of incomes in this country.
      7.45 p.m.
      One wondered whether 1966, 1967 and 1968 had all been in vain. Did we have to unsay and unthink everything that we had uttered throughout those years? Had the experience meant nothing to us?
      I move from that second point of reservation to the third. Not merely was I unattracted by the prospect of Government intervention to determine incomes; it seemed to me that there was at least a serious question mark over the whole

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      idea of concentrating wage increases at the lower end of the scale. I learned at least some of my politics at the feet of the late Iain Macleod. I can remember his arguing that, given a policy which had as its content substantial social objectives, it was far better to pursue those through the tax and the fiscal system than by trying to interfere with collective bargaining and wage determination. Therefore I believe that the traditional approach to the relief of poverty is still best directed through the fiscal and the tax system rather than through attempts to rig wage rates artificially.
      I ask myself what will be the consequences for the National Coal Board, for British Railways or for other employers who largely for solcial reasons keep on ther payrolls large numbers of people whom, on strict economic analyses and criteria, they might be able to do without. If they are obliged artificially to raise their wage rates, many of those people will be rendered redundant. The experience of minimum wage rates in America leads one to the same conclusion. There was a question mark over the philosophy of deliberately rigging the wage rates pattern pre-eminently to the advantage of the lower-paid.
      Therefore, armed with those reservations, I cannot say that I was heartbroken to learn that the tripartite talks had not come to a final conclusion. For them to have come to a conclusion there would have had to be even further concessions from the Government in directions which were inherently un-Conservative and contradictory to the polices on which this party was elected to office. Deriving from those overall observations, therefore, I am delighted that my right hon. and learned Friend resisted these amendments. I commend his resistance to the Committee.
      Mr. Sydney Bidwell: The Committee is always interested in a contribution from the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen). However, his intervention today had much more to do with nineteenth century Liberal-capitalist philosophy than with our present day and age. What is more, having listened to the hon. Gentleman, I am still at a loss to know why he can support the Government's rejection of this amendment so wholeheartedly. It does not necessarily
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      mean that when we vote on the question as a whole the hon. Gentleman is committed. Of course, he and many of his hon. Friends may be persuaded that we must bring the Government back from the perilous path they are treading by following the sound advice contained in our amendments.
      I agree with the hon. Gentleman's observation about strength. In terms of economic strength we must consider the power of the TUC. The hon. Gentleman detects a witness within the TUC structure and admits that there is much that is strong in it. But the handful of people on the General Council of the TUC have to persuade the membership, including unions like the ASTMS, that what they have tentatively agreed in principle at Downing Street should be accepted by the membership as a whole. I counsel the hon. Gentleman to bear in mind that within the TUC, unlike trade union movements in other countries, we have a special entity in the advanced political understanding of its leadership. There is also a profound commitment to the socialist idea throughout the membership and, indeed, some of those unions which are not affiliated to the Labour Party.
      I suggest to the hon. Member for Oswestry, and to the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) who spoke from the Liberal Benches, that there is a climate of understanding, which would necessarily go forth under a Labour rather than a Conservative Government, that attends our scenery in this modern day and age.
      The right hon. and learned Gentleman, who is quaintly called the Minister for Trade and Consumer Affairs—we got to know him better as the Solicitor-General—with his juggernaut enterprise, the Industrial Relations Act, has queered the pitch in the climate of feeling that the trade union movement must have towards the Government of the day—a Government who did not heed the necessary warnings and argument in this House, let alone from the trade union movement as a whole, which was consistently saying right across the board, left, middle and right, that this was not the way to do it. It was not just a handful of people on the left fringes of the trade union movement who were showing total opposition to these measures, which were not

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      on, if the Government expected to grapple with the major question of inflation.
      Listening to some hon. Members one would think that this was a joyous day for the Government. I refer particularly to the contributions by the hon. Members for the New Forest (Mr. Patrick McNair-Wilson) and Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale). One would think that this was a policy. It is not a policy. It is an impasse to which our amendments correctly call attention. It is a sad day for the Government, and a sad day for the Government is a sad day for the nation. This is acceptance of defeat. [Interruption.] I must qualify that. I am thinking in terms of the custodians of our national fortunes.
      Whatever Government we have, we must address our minds to the perilous situation which we face. We may not end up with a current of opinion that rebels against this situation by re-electing a Labour Government. We might run into a rightward fascist development in such a state of economic turmoil. The proposals, virtually for a 180-day standstill or freeze, could have the total effect—perhaps the hon. Member for Oswestry would be inclined to agree with me here—of gumming up the whole process of the expected growth rate in the economy. The situation is so grave that the whole system might collapse. So, any Government must concern themselves not simply with this emergency measure which will deal unfair blows to many people, but with what comes next. Shall we have to continue in future with harsher, legalistic measures which might make the Industrial Relations Act look like a picnic, or shall we be able to draw back from the brink of that abyss and think intelligently in terms of carrying out the national discussion that needs to take place?
      That discussion was beginning in Downing Street. I do not take the view of some of my hon. Friends in the movement—I am not suggesting that any of them are present, because I have not sounded them on this question—that trade union leaders should not talk in Downing Street. The question is: what they should talk about? Of course, that opens up certain criticisms about the agenda being pressed for by trade union leaders and what the Prime Minister was or was not prepared to discuss. The Prime Minister has said on several occasions that certain items were off the agenda because they
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      were political. I believe that any and everything should have been on the agenda when considering an entity such as the trade union movement and trying to get it to consider seriously the impasse in which the Government have got themselves.
      Here we come to the realities of climate. We have had two years of a Conservative Government that seemed wedded to the idea that there had to be a redistribution of wealth in favour of the rich. That philosophy attended their two Budgets. This is where climate comes in. I reject the central theme. The hon. Member for Cornwall, North does not think that climate has a rôle in these affairs. I believe that it has.
      Mr. Thomas Cox: My hon. Friend's point about climate is being shown in this House today. Inner London and London Members generally, of whom my hon. Friend is one, are being lobbied by teachers who are already protesting at the early stages of this policy. This is the kind of attitude which is already conditioning people's minds. It is vital that the Government should take of my hon. Friend's point.
      Mr. Bidwell: I sympathise with that point of view. It underlines the gravity of the situation facing the Government and the rest of the country. Already I and other hon. Members are getting telephone calls from trade union officials drawing attention to wage increases negotiated some time ago. I have in mind a factory in my constituency where a £3·50 increase may be £5 or more with overtime, which the employers have not paid because of the prospect of the Bill. Thus, there is the ironic situation of employers acting in anticipation of current legislation. I find that a cart-before-the-horse attitude, as the amendment seeks to demonstrate, because it takes no account of the possibility of a vote in the House.
      8.0 p.m.
      I ask the Government to bear in mind that the workers are already beginning to ask what will happen to their delayed £3·50 a week. Is it to be shelved by the company concerned, to be stacked up in profit margins and distributed later as dividends after the brakes are removed? Or will it be used to buy new plant, machinery and other capital resources to make the leap forward that

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      is desperately needed by the economy? We must know the exact position. At the conclusion of the 180-day freeze, when full freedom is restored once again, serious economic consequences will inevitably arise.
      People are daily becoming more aware that the Government are all at sea. As I said earlier, they appear to be up the creek. They have had to stand many of their notions on their heads. Of course, many urgent matters must be taken aboard. For example, they must decide whether to take positive action on the Housing Finance Act which, in the present situation, will otherwise result in considerable industrial turmoil.
      What, then, are the prospects which arise from this mess—likely to become even messier—on the return of a Labour Government, and the ability of that Government to grapple with these major economic problems? I do not intend to hark back to the past. As has become clear, both sides of the House have skeletons in the cupboard with regard to these questions. I would rather project my thoughts into the not-too-distant future, following the return of a Labour Government. In this connection, I agree with the hon. Member for Oswestry that the trade union movement will be the key to the resuscitation of the economy, which I do not believe can be achieved by the present legislation and the measures that must invariably follow from it.
      I do not ask for sacrifices. When people talk about sacrifices, I tend to think of the severity of the worldwide capitalist economic crisis of the 1930–31 period, with mass unemployment. The situation here is bad enough, but there was colossal unemployment at that time, with economic collapse in the United States and in Europe. There was an enormous problem in Germany, which paved the way for the social conditions which led to the coming into power of Hitler.
      We are not exactly in that kind of condition at the present time, but we must bear in mind those factors that have arisen in the past. We must also recognise that the trade union movement does not take second place—as Mr. Jack Jones, of the Transport and General Workers' Union, pointed out—in its patriotism. The movement is interested
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      in beating inflation. That has been made absolutely clear. The argument is about the method to be adopted in beating inflation.
      I recall a cartoon that appeared in Ramsay MacDonald's time. It showed a ladder half-submerged in water, with the unemployed worker's nose just above the water level, a few rungs up the ladder. The middle-class were on rungs high and dry out of the water, while the wealthy were far up the ladder, many rungs above the worker. We still live fundamentally in that kind of society.
      The call then was for sacrifices from all; a call for all to step down one rung on the ladder. That was put forward as equality of sacrifice, which was complete nonsense because it would have led to the unemployed drowning and to the lower-paid worker arriving almost at the waterline. That cartoon was directed at a state of economic collapse, at which, fortunately, we have not yet arrived. There are all the signs however that that could occur on the perilous course on which we are now embarked.
      I believe that it is possible for a Labour Government to confront the problem not on the basis of statutory controls—although in a crisis period such as we have now there would be a case for statutory control of essential prices, if we accepted that it was a critical situation. That is where the talks broke down or broke up—I do not believe that talks can ever completely break down between a Government of any kind and the TUC. It is a postponement of discussions, which must be continuous, because if they are not the future is perilous. I imagine that the Government realise that, otherwise they would not have started the exercise; and that they are prepared to continue the talks when they, and the TUC, consider the climate to be right.
      Great lessons can be learned from the talks. If the Government thought that by inviting the fly to come into the parlour they would show the trade union movement in an unfavourable light, they have come unstuck. The country has realised that that is not the case. Those of us who have spent a lifetime in the trade union movement do not believe that the Government can successfully grapple with these problems. In the process of the workout on these proposals and others to come, that will be seen to be so. On the

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      morrow the Labour Government will return and will draw upon the experiences, particularly of their previous six years in power, and will rouse the national spirit needed. They will make arrangements with the trade union movement, which wants to see a real growth rate in the economy, and will achieve that aim. They will achieve that aim because simultaneously with the growth in real wages we shall see a growth in the social wage, which is what socialism is all about.
      Mr. John D. Grant: I hope that the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) will forgive me if I do not take up his vitriolic criticism of his own Government. I prefer to make my own criticism. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) is not here, because I wish to express support for a voluntary incomes policy. The hon. Gentleman was all for a statutory policy and he seemed to be suffering because he was a perfectionist. Only members of the Liberal Party can afford to be perfectionists.
      I support Amendment No. 1 and hope that the Government, even at this eleventh hour, will think again. From what the Minister said it seemed that the Government were not interested in grasping the olive branch. However, the time may come when they will rue the mild, quiet, soothing, almost soporific, bloody-mindedness which was displayed by the Minister in failing to grasp the olive branch.
      The hon. Member for New Forest (Mr. Patrick McNair-Wilson) was clearly in favour of legislation—one had the impression that he was in favour of legislation on almost anything. Indeed, he typified the Government's approach. They are "bonkers" about the law. It was evident in the Housing Finance Act, and in the Industrial Relations Act; they are keen to pass every law they can to keep the working people in what they regard as their rightful place in society, and this latest piece of lopsided legislation fits into that pattern. It is lopsided because it is so much more repressive on wages than on prices. The Government are being almost laughably lax in their treatment of prices. Once again the Prime Minister is leading the British housewife up a blind alley.
      We want the two sides of industry back around the table with the Govern-
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      ment talking about a voluntary agreement. We could have a voluntary wages and incomes policy, while dealing to some extent with prices on a statutory basis. It has been done in other countries and it could be done here.
      The TUC was prepared to concede that part of the package and it would not therefore be necessary to return to square one if talks were resumed. If the amendment were accepted—it is clear that it will not be—we ought not to go back to square one, because square one on wages involves blatant discrimination against public sector employees. Even while the Government were talking to the TUC and the CBI about voluntary arrangements, wage negotiations in some of the nationalised industries were stopped, although the electricity industry slipped through the net. The Government were almost certainly relieved that it did because that prevented them facing a full-scale confrontation which they would not have won.
      In many other industries involving Government employees an instant deepfreeze treatment was applied. On 5th October the Civil Service Department issued instructions to all Departments of State ordering a halt to the making or authorisation of offers of increased rates of pay, allowances, reduced hours or leave, and telling the Departments to await further instructions. A circular to that effect was issued without prior consultation with the National Staff Side of the Civil Service Whitley Council, which is quite contrary to past practice and is a sad commentary on the Department's approach to industrial relations. The Department's explanation was that the issue of the circular was inadvertent. But some of us would regard that comment with suspicion.
      We have been lobbied by representatives of the London teachers. There is doubt about where they stand under the Bill in view of the cost-of-living agreement made with local education authorities but delayed by the Secretary of State for Education. It would be helpful to London teachers if the Minister would clarify the position.
      8.15 p.m.
      A most important feature of this whole series of amendments is that they would allow for open-ended talks. They would

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      need to be open-ended if the kind of job that needs to be done is to be done, and if the matters that should be looked at are to be looked at properly and in some depth—so that this legislation need never be activated. That is what the amendment is hoped to achieve.
      The Government should look depth at what pensioners are to have, and not just buy them off with a sweetener, however desirable that may be as a short-term measure. They also need to look at the whole question of the £2 figure, which it has been said would help the poorly-paid, but which we argued earlier was always regarded, right up to the breakdown of the Downing Street talks, as a negotiable figure.
      It is quite clear that the Government's propaganda machine was working overtime to make that point of view acceptable, and it succeeded in getting it accepted by the newspapers and the trade union right up to the last possible moment. It is not surprising in those circumstances that there was a good deal of pique, and indeed anger, on the TUC side over that.
      The talks also need to be open-ended if they are properly to discuss the question of rents, which are clearly grossly inflationary at present. In my Borough of Islington there is to be an increase towards the end of November of an average of roughly 16 per cent., which is a grossly inflationary rent increase and ought to be reconsidered in the light of the measures the Government is introducing.
      Finally, there is the question of land speculation. If the speculators are to be dealt with, this question cannot be ignored in any package that the Government introduce. In my constituency, in an area called Mildmay, seven houses have just been snapped up by a speculator for £24,000, and within six weeks, with no more cash changing hands than the 10 per cent. deposit, they have been resold for £45,000. That is an example of the kind of gain that is being made by speculators in the area I represent, and it is the kind of thing that cannot be ignored when dealing with the inflationary situation the Government hope to combat.
      All these things should be dealt with and not be pushed out of sight, as so many of them were, under the Downing
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      Street table. The climate is all-important. The sensible thing to help that climate would be to accept the Amendment, because if there is one thing which needs freezing at the moment it is this Bill.
      Mr. Nicholas Ridley: I apologise to the Committee for not having heard all of the debate, but I have heard enough, particularly from Opposition Members, to form a clear idea of the Labour Party's approach to the Bill and the whole subject. It falls conveniently into two. The first part is the natural and understandable attitude of Oppositions. Even though I think that in principle they support the freeze—I think more voices have been raised in support of the freeze than against it—they want at the same time to argue every special case which comes forward, which they will doubtless continue to do during the 90 days and the 150 days and the years of statutory control which strecth before us. For that I entirely exonerate them.
      There is also another element—a new animal which has appeared on the political scene which is called, if I may quote a slip of the tongue of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, the TUCBI, a sort of stage horse. The trade union movement was always described as a carthorse by Lowe in his cartoons before the war, but now there are, as it were, two pairs of legs—one for the CBI and the other for the TUC. This afternoon I detect a third pair of legs walking along under the blanket, and those are the boots of the Labour Party, which crept into the stage-horse, and is making it the vehicle of its main political assault on the Government. That can so obviously be seen coming a mile off, speech after speech.
      Of course the TUC had a right to break off the talks because the Government did not offer to come out of the Community, or to abolish the fair rents Act, or to nationalise the land, or whatever is the current Labour Party policy on these issues. Every speech from the Opposition benches says that the TUC should not agree unless we adopt the full gamut of socialist policies, and of course it is a golden opportunity for them. The policies which were rejected by the electorate suddenly seemed to be possible of achievement by climbing under the

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      stage horse with the CBI and the TUC and assaulting the Government in the Downing Street talks from it.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) was right in being a little suspicious, and I hope the Government will remember that we, who were elected with these Conservative policies before us, will expect to see them continue. Of course, there is no ultimate justice either way and all that we can do is to govern the country as best as we think fit, which was what we were elected to do, and not to govern the country as best the Opposition sees fit.
      Mr. Anthony Fell: When my hon. Friend looks at HANSARD tomorrow, he will see that he included in his list of Conservative policies our entry into the Common Market. This was never a Conservative policy.
      Mr. Ridley: It may not be my hon. Friend's policy but I personally, and I think the Conservative Party in general, advocated it in the last four elections. I have always been under the impression that there was no doubt that that was the Conservative policy, but I fear, Mr. Mallalieu, that it would be wrong to be drawn too far in pursuit of that point.
      Mr. Eric S. Heffer: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that he is directing his remarks to the wrong quarter when he talks about the third pair of legs being the Labour Party? Am I wrong in believing that in fact it was the Conservative Government who nationalised part of Rolls-Royce? It is now the Conservative Government who are bringing in a prices and incomes policy through legislation, which they said they would never do. The Conservative Government introduced the Industrial Relations Act and made money available to help the so-called "lame ducks"—a policy to which the hon. Gentleman was bitterly opposed. Is not he directing his argument to the wrong place? Should not he be directing it to his own Front Bench?
      Mr. Ridley: I frequently speak in this House. The direction in which my words go is for others to decide. The hon. Gentleman sees a fourth pair of legs underneath the horse, apparently wearing spats. It is for him to determine, but
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      I can assure him that he will not see my pair of legs under this particular blanket.
      I should like to express some doubts about the freeze. I support the freeze, reluctantly, because I think it gives the time the Government need to realign their economic policies and to try to come back to a sensible way of running the economy. I reject the Amendment because it would simply postpone the freeze.
      Perhaps the Government would be kind enough to help me with several problems, the first of which concerns the Common Market. I understand that we are joining the Community on 1st January and that we have to abide by the rules of the Community. We voted for this throughout the last Session, but I remain firmly of the opinion that the freeze on the prices of steel and coal particularly, but also on all other prices, is inconsistent with the Treaty of Rome and the Treaty of Paris. Is it the Government's intention that there should be a waiver for the steel industry on 1st January, or is it not? That question needs a straight answer now. I am sure I have posed it in the wrong way—
      Mr. Biffen: The question cannot he posed in such simple terms, I think.
      Mr. Ridley: Perhaps my right hon. and learned Friend will both pose the question and answer it at the same stage. This is something which those of us who believe that we should behave honourably in Europe—that we should enter into the spirit of the Treaty of Rome—will want to have resolved for us before we get into the new year.
      Mr. Biffen: Before my hon. Friend leaves this point, which is quite clearly the doubt over our obligations under the Treaty of Paris, will he not agree that he is not merely limited to provisions of the Bill, but that the matter must also extend to the Downing Street declaration of 26th September, which seemed to indicate that any increase in steel prices would be limited, as a result of Government initiative, to 4 per cent.?
      Mr. Ridley: The Government have powers in Clause 2(6) to exempt various prices from the operation of the freeze, and all my right hon. and learned Friend has to say is that it will be used in relation to steel. It is almost as strong to say

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      that what applies to steel and coal will also apply to all prices. This is something which, in the end, must be taken into account before we go further along the counter-inflation road, which this Bill still represents.
      The second point arises directly from this, and concerns the financing of the nationalised industries. Contrary to what hon. Gentlemen opposite have been saying, to hold down the prices of products of nationalised industry and to subsidise them from the Exchequer is an inflationary, and not a deflationary thing to do, because the money people would have spent on paying the cost-level prices which nationalised industries would otherwise charge is available to them to spend on other things, thereby bidding up prices from labour and materials in other industries.
      So it is not a contribution to the proper running of the economy to hold down prices, though I would support it perhaps for special reasons for a temporary period. It seems that when we get to the end of this temporary period the problem will be even more difficult and severe, because already we know that we are running at the rate of about £500 million a year subsidy, to take into account the loss of interest which the Treasury is suffering, and every year that will increase until the time will come when, if we ever wish to get back to realistic nationalised industry prices, the jump will be so steep that it will be politically impossible to achieve.
      We are embarked upon a road which is permanently inflationary and it will be very difficult to get off it. Added to that, it is basically in direct contravention to our obligations under the European treaties. I suggest to the Government that in this area there are difficulties ahead which will cause great problems to the country in the future.
      My third point concerns the relative ease or difficulty with which one can control prices or wages. The hon. Member for Islington, East (Mr. John D. Grant) suggested that the arrangements in the Bill for controlling prices were totally inadequate, but that the Bill bore very hard on wage earners. I do not want to talk about the merits of higher wages or redistribution, as in my Second Reading speech. I then conceded the case of
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      redistribution of income as being something which is happening, which is inevitable, and which may well be proper and right. But I want to cross swords with the hon. Gentleman on this question of the relative ease of controlling prices and of controlling incomes.
      8.30 p.m.
      Surely all the experience of the Labour Government's prices and incomes folly was that that Government succeeded better in controlling prices than they ever did in controlling incomes or wages. Even though the difference was marginal, they failed abysmally on wages, shall we put it, and not quite so abysmally on prices. The result of that differential is always to reduce the margin of profit and therefore the amount available for investment.
      Our investment record is deplorable. It is possibly running at a quarter per head of the population compared with Japan and at least half of what it should be compared with similar industrial nations. To achieve a position in which we shall succeed to any extent in holding down prices more than wages will be bad for investment and bad for the future employment of the unemployed. Therefore, although that line of argument is superficially attractive, I ask the Opposition not to pursue it.
      The one thing which will restore full employment is investment, and the one thing which will jeopardise investment still further is a policy—whether a voluntary or a statutory policy—which was more effective on prices than wages.
      I am surprised that anyone should believe that it is possible to control wages anything like as easily as prices. It is always possible to take a manufacturer to court, or to identify and deal with individuals who are responsible for fixing prices, because they are few. On the whole they are more likely to obey the statute law, or a Government Order. Then there are the hundreds of thousands of people, who may or may not be organised in trade unions and who may obtain wage increases unhindered.
      The declared intention of union leaders, despite the terms of the Bill, if it becomes law, is to go ahead with this or that claim. They are the political union leaders. Those who have not declared such an aim may be equally resolved to obtain higher wages for their mem-

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      bers, but are not keen to publicise the fact in advance.
      In any event, taking into account the small groups of people in different trades, scattered throughout the country, who may obtain by some means a 5, 10 or 15 per cent. increase, how will the Government know of those increases, and how will they prevent them?
      Thus, there is a strange blindness in the Opposition's demanding a "dial-a-diddle" service without considering a "dial-a-fiddle" service for wages. That is the logical consequence of controlling prices and, although I have little faith that it would work, I think that the country would be ill-served by a policy which succeeds in controlling prices but fails to control wages.
      Having sought to illustrate the difficulties of what we are embarked upon, it remains for me to hope that the Committee will try to make of future policy, however it may emerge—and I am no friend of statutory policies—something that will be free from the fundamental danger—namely, that we should succeed in stripping the seed corn of the future by a more successful control of prices than of wages, which lies at the heart of this legislation.
      Mr. Ronald King Murray: I support Amendment No. 1. For reasons which the Committee will understand, it is framed in formal terms, but its object is that the Bill should be suspended, so that a voluntary agreement satisfactory to the three parties involved may be achieved.
      The right hon. and learned Gentleman who spoke for the Government in reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North, (Mr. Prentice) failed to grapple with the real intent and object of Amendment No. 1. It is not merely a formal matter. A question of substance is involved. The right hon. and learned Gentleman referred repeatedly to the failure of talks. If he considers again what my right hon. Friend said in moving the amendment, he will realise that behind it lies a pressing question which goes to the root of the Government's good faith in introducing the Bill.
      The Government's good faith is in issue because it is conceivable that at
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      some point one of the three parties to the talks, the CBI or the TUC—let us take the two non-Government bodies—may come up with an idea which could bridge the existing gap. It might be the TUC, it might be the CBI. Let us suppose that, when this bright new idea is being considered by that body, it communicates it to the other body, the CBI to the TUC, or vice versa. They both agree that it is a bridging concept which will do the trick, that the Downing Street fiasco need not have occurred, and that the new idea can repair the damage. The idea is then communicated to the Government. Would the Government then seriously drag on with the Bill? That is the question behind the amendment which the right hon. and learned Gentleman failed to answer.
      The right hon. and learned Gentleman has a new office, and he is to be congratulated on that. But he has not changed his Committee-stage technique. We should like a specific reply to that question. What would the Government do if one of the other two parties came up with an idea which would resolve the crisis which we face? If the Government are acting in good faith about the Bill, they should drop it at once. That is the point of the amendment. Will they agree to drop the Bill and postpone their measures for the sake of voluntary agreement?
      My second observation is that it is clear, not only from the contributions made in the debate but from articles in the Economist, which have been much quoted, and in other journals which have dealt with the problems created by the publication of the Bill, that the problem of controlling prices and incomes is one which no one has been able to solve—neither in this country nor anywhere else. The nearest one can get to a solution is to rely upon the methods which ordinarily work in a well-ordered society and economy. On the trade union side those methods include bargaining by unions; on the other side, various other processes determine prices, including the limitation of monopolies and—I want to be fair to the other side—the encouraging of competition. Such factors taken together in a well-ordered society and a well-ordered and healthy economy can do the job better than any academic. formal, or dogmatic interference. That

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      will be agreed by both sides of the Committee.
      Why, therefore, is there suspicion about the Government's good faith in introducing the Bill? One reason is that the Government's good faith can be challenged over the situation in which the Bill came to be published. Suspicion has been aired, not only from this side of the Committee, that the real motive and purpose of the Bill is to provide a catalyst of some sort for entry into the Community on 1st January, 1973. Suspicions arise that the mechanism of the Bill may be directed to that end. Another suspicion which has been aired is that the Bill is intended to deal with the problem of ending the floating of sterling. The true motivation might be connected with that.
      The Government's good faith is very much at issue in these matters. It will not do for them merely to say that there is a crisis, because the suspicion may exist that the form of the crisis is of their own creation, and that the Bill was introduced not to solve the immediate problem but to provide a standstill, a smokescreen behind which the Government could reorganise their disorganised forces.
      If the Government are to convince the Committee that the aim of the Bill is more important than that, and that it has a substantial rôle to play in the economic recovery of this country, they owe to the Committee, either now or later, some indication of their thinking beyond the Bill. It would, I agree, be premature for them to disclose in detail their present thinking on phase 2, but, unless they tell the Committee the broad principles which lie behind their thinking on phase 2, even if it be only preliminary thinking, they are not being honest to the parliamentary system, and they are not disclosing the true motives behind the Bill. I hope that that point will be taken seriously and that the Government will disclose the broad objectives which they have in mind.
      Only if something better is to emerge can the Government justify a standstill of 90 or 150 days. They must justify that in relation to Amendment No. 1, because of the way in which it has been framed. I dare say that the Opposition will be merciful and allow them to reply to the point later in the debate; but it
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      runs right through the whole Bill and, if their good faith is called in question on Clause 1, it will be called in question throughout.
      One of the reasons why the effort to stop inflation is bound to be subjected to the most careful scrutiny by the Labour Party and by the trade unions was powerfully put by my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars). He pointed out that, when a working man seeks to obtain a fair wage for his work, it is not simply an economic commodity that he is putting on the market; it is his whole life. In considering prices, one is dealing with something material and objective, something in regard to which there is a mathematical quantum but no feeling, involvement or human relationships. But with the working man and his wage matters are entirely different, and this must not be ignored.
      If, therefore we are to have a structure of wages and prices to stop inflation and achieve a better distribution and increase in the real wealth of the people of this country, we have to recognise that, if wages are treated as something to counterbalance prices, an essential element of any successful equation is that of the humanity which lies behind the struggle for a fair wage by the working man. His family life and whole way of life are involved.
      8.45 p.m.
      Achievement of a mathematical parity is the temptation in legislation of this kind, and it is why previous attempts to achieve a fair prices and incomes policy have run into difficulty. It has always been the same difficulty: that apparent mathematical parity looks fair, but behind that apparent mathematical parity there is always the human reality of the wage-earner. The result is that the working people, the trade unionists, are bound to be suspicious of any superficial apparent mathematical equality which is offered to them.
      They are suspicious for two sound reasons. The first is an economic one: they are bound to bargain as best they can for the best bargain they can obtain. That is part of the ordinary system of the capitalist economy as we know it, and they are entitled to do that. Secondly, and far more seriously, they are entitled to ask, "Is what is being proposed socially

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      fair and just to the people we represent? Will it achieve the kind of progress they are entitled to in this 20th century?" That is where their suspicions may be justified, because time and again when questions like that are asked, the answers given are found to be doubtful or inadequate.
      This is the cutting edge of any attempt to legislate against inflationary spirals, and it will not do for the Government to suppose that any kind of statutory provision of this kind will satisfy that aspect of the trade union movement and the working-class movement. The wage earner and the trade unionist will not be satisfied with a statutory arrangement which does not offer the chance of genuine progress in the future of his living standard and the quality of his life.
      There is nothing in the Bill to indicate that. There is nothing to give any hope to the wage earner or the trade unionist that there will be a change in the future or the hope of progress in the future. There is no incentive to him to participate in this kind of development. It is for that reason that this side of the House believes that a voluntary agreement between the CBI and the TUC and the Government is not only the only hope but the only reality in the present situation.
      The TUC, representing the wage-earners, must be genuinely satisfied that what is offered is more than merely economically viable. That is the first thing the TUC has to stand for, because it is an economic body, but it must see beyond that and be satisfied that the economic bargain it is getting also contains the potentiality of social progress for the wage earners and the trade unionists it represents. It can be satisfied of that only by argument and careful consideration of detailed proposals, not by woolly promises, not by declarations of intent, and not by legislation of this kind.
      For these reasons, the debate we have had on this amendment is crucial for the whole Bill. I see great difficulties in the Committee's making a great deal of progress on the later Amendments unless we have some disclosure from the Government of what their real thinking about the matter is.
      Mr. J. D. Concannon: The guillotine will make it difficult.
      Mr. Ronald King Murray: I am grateful for that reminder.
      One is tempted in dealing with legislation covering prices and incomes to go into a great deal of detail, even in this first preliminary debate. One is tempted to consider in a comparative way the provisions of the Labour Government's Prices and Incomes Act of 1966. It bears very favourable comparison with this Bill. I must not be tempted into that detail, although I should very much like to do it, simply because of the guillotine of which I have been reminded.
      The dialogue which is essential is that between the wage earners and trade unions on the one hand, and the Confederation of British Industry on the other. That dialogue could be assisted best by the presence of an objective body, genuinely seeking to discover the facts—a difficult task in itself.
      Journals such as the Economist, and other learned journals and newspapers that have produced helpful articles since the freeze was announced by the Government, make it clear that the task of discovering why we are subjected to inflationary pressures is far from easy. HANSARD of last week bears eloquent testimony to that. Nobody knows the answer. University departments have been working on the subject, and they do not know the answer. Research departments of the CBI and the TUC cannot find the answer.
      In that situation, is it not plain that the greatest assistance that could be obtained would be to discover the true causes of the present inflation, to devote the necessary research and funds to discovering why it is there, with the necessary power to collect information. Such a body would be useful not only in discovering the facts and disclosing them publicly, but in enabling the three sides involved in the tripartite discussions to find common ground. It would provide them with means of discourse and with material for dialogue.
      I have described the Prices and Incomes Board, the very body that the Government abolished, along with the Consumer Council. It will not do for the Government, standing on their heads, to maintain that they can proceed with

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      legislation of this kind when they have destroyed the only means giving a prospect of a solution.
      Mr. Michael Grylls: I listened to the right hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) with great interest. At the forefront was a proposal for firm State control of key prices. Secondly, he suggested that there should be a fairer system of taxes and more taxation of higher incomes; in other words, replacing some of the taxes removed by the Government in the past two years. Thirdly, he talked about the reform of the fair rents Act. Lastly, particularly in the context of VAT—he did not say this outright, but there was a hint of it, and I hope that he will correct me if I am wrong—he spoke of going back on the whole of the EEC Act.
      The issue concerning both sides of the Committee is food prices, which bear most heavily on housewives' budgets. Perhaps it is that factor that starts an inflationary trend. When the right hon. Gentleman talks about firm State control of prices, does he mean returning to a full subsidy system with excessive subsidies to reduce the price of imported food? That would mean not just extra taxation for a few, but massive extra taxation for almost everybody. The right hon. Gentleman did not make that clear. In the initial debate on the Prime Minister's statement there was much criticism of the Government for not doing more to keep down prices, particularly food prices, a feature about which we are all worried. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said, because so much of our food is imported, it is impossible to do anything to keep food prices down.
      What the Government proposed in the package they put to the CBI and the TUC was to an agreement among the retail trade not to increase gross margins beyond a certain level, and to see that price rises were kept under a general 4 per cent. maximum. I do not believe that the right hon. Gentleman's proposal for total State control of prices, attractive as it may sound—it may sound superficially attractive even to many of my supporters in my constituency—is a practicable solution.
      The right hon. Gentleman mentioned increases in taxation. Above all, the Government have been determined to
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      continue with growth in the economy and they believe that excessive taxation has been a problem under which everybody has laboured for a long time. Taxation has been more than a problem for a relatively unimportant few. The general level of personal taxation has now been reduced, and that is a major contribution by the Government to tackling inflation. It has not solved the problem, but it has helped. To increase taxes as the right hon. Gentleman suggests is merely to give another twist to the inflationary spiral's roots.
      The most controversial suggestion was the right hon. Gentleman's proposal about fair rents. He said that in his negotiations with the TUC and CBI, the Prime Minister should have been prepared to say that he would withdraw that policy, and there was an exchange during the right hon. Gentleman's remarks with hon. Friends on this point. If one accepts the fair rent scheme which originated in the fair rent concept introduced by the Labour Government, it is a contradiction in terms to propose to take it back, to say that it would be fairer if the levy were abolished.
      What of the 300,000 tenants in private accommodation, many with low incomes? What of the people who stand to get rent allowances? Are they to be told that they cannot get their rent allowances and that their rents have to stay relatively high? Is that to be true of many hundreds of thousands of council tenants, too? Many of them have low incomes and expect their rents to be reduced by the Housing Finance Act.
      Above all, the pensioners stand to gain most from this reform. They would not be pleased if it were taken back by the Prime Minister.
      The one subject the right hon. Gentleman did not mention, not altogether surprisingly, was what it was proposed to do about wages. It is one thing to have statutory permanent control of prices. But what is to be done about wages? He did not suggest that we should have statutory control of wages and I should not like to see it on any permanent basis, because it would not work.
      Mr. Prentice: I resisted the temptation to break in earlier because the right hon. Gentleman was commenting on several

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      of my observations. The tenor of my remarks was that if the Government would shift their policy on a number of the issues that he has just mentioned, so as to reduce the impact of the inflation which they have generated, they would have a basis on which to go back to the TUC and CBI and ask for their co-operation on a voluntary agreement to keep inflation in check. An important part of my case was that the wages strategy would fit in, if these other considerations were looked after first.
      9.0 p.m.
      Mr. Grylls: I appreciate what the right hon. Gentleman says. It is a question of degree, because in the negotiations the Prime Minister went some way by increasing the needs allowance and in respect of the calculation of fair rents and the rent allowances and rebates. That was a help. It was on the table and was part of the negotiation.
      Throughout the debate there has been a certain hopelessness in the Opposition's case—and I say that in the kindest possible way. I was not a Member in 1966 or 1968, but, like the majority of hon. Members, I feel that I have been here before—that I am going over ground that we have frequently debated in the past, and that the Opposition are opposing something which the majority of people believe is right. People applaud the Government for having taken a firm decision.
      When we were discussing the timetable Motion and quoting precedents, I thought how irrelevant the debate was. It is said that Members of Parliament are out of touch with public opinion. Instead of talking about the nub of the matter and trying to achieve a fair prices and incomes policy, all we did was to discuss whether there should be a guillotine and what were the precedents for it. I am not particularly interested whether this has happened before. The fact that it happened in 1966 and 1968 is history.
      I believe that the majority of people want the Government to take fair and immediate action to deal with the problem of inflation. That is what the Government were elected for. Whatever history says, the Government are determined to solve the problem. We should, perhaps, remember the old adage that it is a mark of good action when it appears inevitable in retrospect. We may well look back
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      In retrospect and say, "Why did we not do this earlier?"
      I believe that the freeze will be temporary. Right hon. and hon. Members opposite have often chided the Government for not doing things "at a stroke". They have no grounds for complaint when the Prime Minister deals with this matter at a stroke. The public want immediate action to be taken, and that is exactly what the Government have done.
      The second and perhaps most important strand running through the debate has been the need to get back to the negotiating table and try to reach an agreement with both sides of industry. That is what almost every hon. Member wants. The Bill is only a temporary measure. Whatever else may be said about the package which the Government have left lying on the negotiating table, large parts of it were very good, and I believe that both sides of industry accept that they represent a considerable advance. Emphasis on help for the lower-paid workers and talk about the redistribution of income were major factors in the package.
      The Minister for Trade and Consumer Affairs mentioned the question of threshold agreements. It would have been a very big step forward if agreement could have been reached on that matter. I hope that in the next stage we shall be able to do so. I believe that the package goes a long way to meet the arguments of the TUC and the CBI. It contained, as the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Ronald King Murray) said, some very helpful proposals. I agree with much of what the hon. and learned Gentleman said in the earlier part of his speech, although not what he said, when he began his peroration. The hon. and learned Gentleman talked about what was socially just, which is what an incomes policy must be. He also referred to hope for the future, with which I also agree.
      There can be no hope in a statutory situation; it must be voluntary. The statutory position will give the Government the pause which they need to get on with a voluntary agreement. The package, when studied as a whole, can be seen to offer hope. Obviously it is not perfect, otherwise it would have been accepted. However, it offers considerable hope for a socially just incomes policy,

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      to which the hon. and learned Gentleman rightly drew attention.
      I hope that we shall have as little delay as possible in getting the Bill through. The sooner we do so the sooner we can move out of the statutory period and into a voluntary agreement, which we all want. A constructive prices and incomes policy which is achieved by consent is something that every country has for years struggled to obtain. Despite our party divisions and battles, it is surely something that the Committee is working hard to achieve.
      Mr. J. T. Price: During the last two hours I have listened to a number of interesing speeches, especially from the Government benches. There has been the sort of dialogue that we have had on many previous occasions, as one of our newer Members has just reminded me. The fact that he has just come into this kind of dialogue and debate in no way alters the fact that there is a deep division on matters of principle and of solution between the two sides.
      My heart almost bled for some hon. Members opposite, such as the hon. Members for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) and for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley). They are wrestling with their own theological preconceptions about what the Government should be doing. If any of my hon. Friends are suffering under the policies of the Government, their suffering is small compared to some of the suffering that hon. Members opposite will have to ensure in watching their colleagues on the Front Bench perform their gymnastics and change their policies from day to day.
      That is not to say—I do not wish to make a polemical point—that I would stand here with a sense of responsibility and deny that the country is passing through a serious crisis. It is a serious crisis and I believe a grave crisis that we are threatened with this inflation. A great deal of the social reform that has been created by generations of active work by people like my hon. Friends and I, and people in the trade union movement, is at risk if there is endemic inflation which cannot be arrested. That inflation would be partly due to the disastrous policy embarked upon by the
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      Government 2½ years ago. Let us never be ashamed of repeating that.
      The policies on which the Government took up their mandate were policies which could not endure in the advanced society in which we live. They were policies which demanded an open confrontation, and a return to the free market economy of John Stuart Mill and all the laissez-faire economists of 150 years ago. That is why the hon. Member for Oswestry is suffering so acutely.
      There are some Members, including the hon. Member for Oswestry, whose opinions I always respect and always like to hear expressed. The hon. Member is suffering, along with his hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury, who is a more archaic survivor than he is in these matters. I say that not with malice but as a reaffirmation of my belief that all the great professors and economic pundits have misled Labour and Tory Governments in their efforts to diagnose the sources of inflation, and its endemic condition in society, which is always causing instability and industrial unrest.
      I am the least dogmatic person in the House of Commons, as everyone knows. I express my views tentatively and not dogmatically. However, I have no hesitation in telling the Chief Secretary that the sources of inflation in our society are always avoided by the Government. They were sometimes avoided by my colleagues when they were in government some years ago. The sources of inflation are largely linked with the artificial inflation of real property and land values, which is at the root of all inflation in every Western society.
      During the period of the last Labour Government when my friends were suffering acutely from the situation prevailing then, I referred in the Chamber spontaneously—without any preparation and without reference to the Library—to a very great man called Henry George, who wrote a book called "Progress and Property". I quoted Henry George appropriately and fairly in support of my argument. Henry George, who was not a Socialist but an American economist of distinction, made the most penetrating analysis of the relationship of land values to the community's activities that has ever been written. On that occasion I was supporting the Government with reservations, not attacking them.

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      On leaving the Chamber after that debate a very senior member of the Labour Government said to me, "Who the hell is this Henry George?". That was a piece of heresy to me. Some members of the present Administration who have come from all the best prep schools and the older universities, and who have been appropriately primed to occupy the high offices they now occupy will be no doubt familiar with the line of country that I am referring to.
      The hon. Member for Chertsey (Mr. Grylls) showed by his reference to the spiral being started by food prices that he has given no thought to the situation. In this latest splurge of inflation which so terribly concerns the Government and everybody else, what troubles us is the fantastic inflation of real property values during the last two-and-a-half years. The economic pundits who draw up the statistics and the graphs and record all the facts so far as they can be recorded say that in the last two-and-a-half years real property and land values have appreciated by at least 57 per cent.
      Land is a very subtle thing, because all wealth starts from land. Any House of Commons which forgets that all wealth comes from the land forgets the real purpose of all social activities, which is to exploit a country's real wealth in its land and all the fruits which come from it. Real property, in terms, for example, of houses, has certainly increased in price by over 50 per cent. in the last few years.
      [Sir ROBERT GRANT-FERRIS in the Chair]
      9.15 p.m.
      Despite that, one of the most Olympian and bland Members, the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury—I am sorry to refer to him when he is not here, though he has been here a long time—made some remarkable statements about our deplorable investment record. He is quite right in saying that it is a deplorable investment record. It has been particularly so during the last two-and-a-half years. We were hoping to create a climate in which industry would be encouraged, by the policy which we on our side were trying to carry out, plough more profits back into productive capacity and increase the real wealth of the country. I believe in that. Does
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      anybody suppose that that is done by prudent investors of the kind who handle the great levers of power in the financial world, who control the banks and the financial institutions, the property trusts, the investment trusts and the unit trusts, and who fill the weekend papers with columns of advertisements very expensively displayed, advertisements saying "Double your money in four years by putting your chips into our investment bonds"?
      Why did the Prime Minister go to Guildhall last night and make one of those ceremonial speeches which every Prime Minister is expected to make? First, and traditionally, he spoke about foreign affairs. During the installation of a new Lord Mayor of the City of London, whoever he is and whatever political jackets he wears, the Prime Minister is called upon to make one of those ceremonial speeches. I have not with me the text of the Prime Minister's speech, but in the latter part, before all those assembled financial experts who grace those occasions, and wearing their tailcoats and white ties, he very properly made reference to inflation and said that in this situation of inflation through which our country is passing no section of the community should seek to avoid the consequences of it—or words to that effect. I hope I am right in assuming that he was not only speaking to Jack Jones's transport workers and other workers who are charged with being the cause of inflation because of wage demands; I hope he was also sneaking to the property tycoons in the City of London who have inflated land prices at a criminal rate of exploitation, which is having the most serious consequences.
      My support of this amendment is based on more fundamental ground than any merely tactical opposition to what the Government are doing. It is based on the ground that till this Government take some decisive step to stop the exploitation of property by land racketeers the ordinary people who are asked to abate their demands will not do so, because they will have no confidence in the good faith of the Government. It is as simple as that.
      I conclude my contribution to this debate, which will not get us anywhere except the Division Lobby, by asking how can we have a serious debate on a matter so grave for the future of our

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      country if the Government avoid and duck the main question, which is the scandalous inflation in property and land values? This Government cannot honestly ask for my support for their steps to reduce inflation while they allow a free run to the property racketeers and bond washers who are so active in the City of London.
      I might have left it at that, but I would add a rider. Many sentimental speeches have been made in this Chamber. People often wear their hearts on their sleeves and say that they want one nation. That is when the nation is in trouble. When it seems convenient for the people who have the power to exploit that power unduly they do not want one nation: they want a free market.
      The Prime Minister has called for a united attack by all sections of the community on the menace of inflation. He has said that the Government will pay special attention to low-paid workers and pensioners—the people who suffer most from inflation. In the distributive trades between two and three million workers employed in humble jobs behind shop counters and in little cafés do not get £20 or even £15 a week. Some do not get even £10 a week. If the Government are sincere in what they say, let them declare that all those groups of low-paid workers who feel the full blast of inflated prices shall be excluded from the operation of the Bill. If the Government do not do so we shall continue our attempts to delay and hamstring the Bill. The Government must not blame me if people less responsible and less middle-of-the-road than I am supposed to be counsel millions of people to take action to the disadvantage of the country.
      I do not wish to see a settlement by industrial strife or conflct, any more than I wish to see an international conflict solved by war. I prefer to appeal to people's reason and common sense. That appeal will be infinitely stronger if the Government give evidence that as a first priority they are prepared to tackle property racketeers and give relief to lower-paid workers.
      Mr. David Madel: I think we should probably all agree with the first part of the speech of the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. J. T. Price) about the dangers of
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      continued inflation, particularly to the low paid and those who do not have strong bargaining power. This debate has once again shown the three attitudes to an incomes policy that exist across party boundaries.
      Eloquently proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) was the view that the Government should have no incomes policy at all and should leave bargaining between trade unions and management unfettered. But we must remember that not everyone is a member of a trade union, and, if matters are left to a slogging match between unions and management, many people will get hurt in the process.
      Secondly, there is the view put forward by the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) that there should be a permanent statutory policy for incomes and prices. The majority of us do not go along with that view. It would merely take away the whole raison d'être of trade unions and management, and there would be general resentment at the Government year after year laying down the level of pay settlements.
      The third view put forward was that we should continue along the lines of a voluntary incomes policy. A voluntarily incomes policy has worked only once since the war, and that was between 1950 and 1951, when, by sheer force of personality, Sir Stafford Cripps persuaded everyone to make a sacrifice. If, in a voluntary incomes policy, outside economic factors are disregarded, the whole policy is wrecked, as it was for the Labour Government in 1951 by the enormous rise in raw material prices brought about by the Korean War. A voluntary incomes policy has to be extremely flexible and I hope that during the 90 days—which I hope will be wisely used—the Government will emphasise the importance of flexibility in a future voluntary prices policy. I hope that the Government will also stress that the freeze applies to salaries as to wages and that management will also be expected to make sacrifices.
      The main point that concerns us is how to use the 90-day freeze. Machinery must be set up quickly—a body similar to the National Board for Prices and Incomes on which the three sides, trade unions, management and Government, will get used to working together and considering the levels of pay settlements

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      and prices. If we can achieve this aim, the situation will not be perfect. The reason that a voluntary incomes policy so often fails is that both the public and both sides of industry expect too much from it to begin with. No voluntary prices and incomes policy can be perfect; certain people will drive a coach and horses through it. However, we can gradually build up a system in which the three sides work together and so that the system can be seen to be fair. This can then lead to a voluntary incomes policy.
      I support the Government in their 90-day freeze because I believe that it will provide a breathing space and give time to set up the system that is needed, but if the 90-day period is wasted and if we do not achieve normal consultation we shall find tremendous difficulty when we move away from a statutory to a voluntary policy.
      It is always a psychological problem in trying to get people to take a little less. The hon. Member for Cornwall, North asked how one could expect Clive Jenkins to say to his members, "I have negotiated for less than I could have got." The situation will depend upon whether other trade union leaders are negotiating for less and whether management will make some concessions; it will depend upon whether there will be greater consultation in industry. The deadly English disease is indifference or shyness on the part of management in not taking trade unions into their confidence.
      Therefore, I hope that during the 90-days they will improve their conciliation and consultative machinery. If this happens, the Government will be well placed, having set up a body like the National Incomes Commission, to enable a voluntary policy to succeed. I hope that the Chief Secretary will continue to emphasise that with the existence of the freeze, and in aiming at a voluntary policy, it will be against the background of a high growth rate and falling taxation. Without these factors we shall never get a policy which will succeed.
      Mr. William Small: I enter into this debate seeking some sign of a change in Government policy. This is a Government who are clothed in borrowed plumes, but the style of this debate and the sort of attitude to
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      industrial matters comes as something of a surprise. I believe that at the end of the day these discussions will all add up to an alibi for an increase in unemployment and that employers will find reasons to reduce their labour force.
      The Prime Minister ought now to be riding on a fanfare of trumpets on achieving his desired entry into the Common Market, but in Britain he must face the fact that he has missed a good chance to bring about a consultative troika between the CBI, the TUC and Government. Unfortunately, it was a missed opportunity. The hard-line approach adopted by the Prime Minister has resulted in this legislation because he would not give away 1 per cent. The psychology of the arguments at 10 Downing Street was to control prices to 5 per cent., which so far as the CBI is concerned is a rational aim, but in respect of the nationalised industries it would mean that some 40 per cent. of the economy would not be under any control. The impact on the equilibrium of the nationalised industry prices would be a depressing one. Therefore, I believe that at the end of three months or so the stresses and strains and the flood which will result will be worse than they have ever been.
      As I see it, the Prime Minister and his team have not attempted to measure up to the requirements of a mixed economy, and it is Britain's mixed economy which is the problem. If we are to try, after many years of free collective bargaining, to enter a period of restriction by having a written constitution, that constitution will not be understood fully by either side and the Government will rue the day that they adopted this policy.
      9.30 p.m.
      Mr. Torney: I commend these amendments to the Committee, since they will result in postponing the decision about a freeze and give the Government a period of leeway in which to understand the trade union movement and its wage negotiating machinery better than they do today.
      In attempting to bring about a freeze by legislation and to blame the trade union movement for the failure of the recent Downing Street talks, the Government and the Tory Party appear to me

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      to have a complete lack of understanding of the trade union movement and its workings. The only other possible explanation is that the policies and utterances of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite about the trade union movement are a sham, which is intended to draw a shadow over the incompetence of their policies.
      It is no use right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite saying that they do not entirely blame higher prices on wage demands and the trade unions. I can remember Questions being placed upon the Order Paper over many months past, and I can remember the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House, when Minister of Agriculture, telling us that the reason for the higher prices was that the nasty, wicked trade unionists were demanding such high wage rates. They were said to be the real cause of the trouble.
      We hope that these amendments will give the Government an opportunity to think again. Perhaps they will see that the people are not as prepared to accept the freeze as many right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have said. The news media can do a great deal to whip up public fervour, so much so that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite believe some of their own propaganda which is echoed by the media to the extent that they really think that they know the will of the British people.
      I venture to ask the Committee to consider how an agricultural worker will accept the Government's policy. I am sure that no one will suggest that agricultural workers are over-paid. How will a hospital worker, or someone employed in one of the distributive industries, accept the policy? In this connection, I must declare an interest. For many years I worked as a trade union officer on behalf of those employed in the distributive industries. Their pay level is about as low and as rotten as that of agricultural workers and hospital workers.
      I hope that the media will give as much prominence to telling the people that there is another side to the coin as they have given to covering up the complete somersault of the Tory Government and their Prime Minister. I hope that they will give as much prominence to the
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      other side of the coin: that all trade union leaders are not wicked Joneses or Scallions. That description is not mine; it is the kind of description that has been given by the Press and Tory speakers over the last year or two.
      The great majority of trade union leaders are moderate men, but the effects of this freeze may cause those moderate men to become a little immoderate—and it will not be their fault. I do not know whether the Minister who is to reply has read this morning's Guardian. I have not got it with me, so I cannot quote from it; but a very moderate trade union leader, my own, Alfred Allen—certainly not a wild man who could be accused of bringing the country down by his demands for high wages—is reported as speaking bitterly of the fact that workers in the food trade, earning only £14 a week in 1972, are to have their wages frozen. Bargains have been honourably negotiated in the shop and distributive trades by employers and trade unions, whereby, instead of continuous negotiations, the workers are to get increases year after year under a three-year agreement. This freeze will hold up such increases for members of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, who are not always holding the country to ransom but are merely asking for a just and fair deal.
      Coming back to the charge of inflation being blamed on workers' wages, I should point that food prices have been persistently and continuously rising since the Government took office. One hon. Member talked about "strokes". We did not invent the "stroke". The Prime Minister invented the "stroke" to win the election. Now that he has won it, the "stroke" will, quite rightly, continue to be rammed back at him.
      How can the Government possibly place the blame for rising food prices on workers in the food industry. Agricultural and shop workers are among the lowest paid in the country. Therefore, how can their wage rates be factors in rising food prices?
      For nearly the whole time that this Government has been in power, Ministers have been saying, "If the unions did not demand high wages, prices would not go up." How can that be balanced against the fact that food trade and agricultural

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      workers are existing—not living—on a mere pittance?
      To most workers in the distributive and allied trades wages mean what they take home. The vast majority of shop and distributive trades workers are not able to work overtime to inflate their earnings in the way that other sections of workers do.
      I was extremely interested in the long list of wage increases which the hon. Member for the Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Tugendhat)—I am sorry he is not present; this is not a critcism of him for not being here—told us that trade union leaders had accepted in the past 10 months or so. It was very interesting. He listed them. He told us that many had accepted less than £1, a lesser number had accepted less than £2, while a very small number had accepted more than that. In the light of the Government's change of front, the somersaults of the Prime Minister and the Front Bench, the hon. Gentleman might well be promoted to Cabinet office, since he has seen clearly what the Government have apparently not seen—hence the freeze that my right hon. and hon. Friends are seeking in the amendments at least to delay—that trade union leaders are not such unreasonable fellows. He has proved to us that, in his own words, trade unionists are hard bargainers. They are people who are very conscious of their responsibility. Much of the strife of the past two years has been largely due to the policies of confrontation that the Government have consistently pursued.
      As a result of long years of work as a trade union officer, I know the importance of establishing an atmosphere during negotiations. Conservative Members who are employers, and who have taken part in negotiations, will be aware of the importance of atmosphere during trade union negotiations, and will know that little can be accomplished without trust and understanding between the two parties.
      The analogy which I am trying to draw is this: how can the Government expect to establish a healthy atmosphere of decent trust and understanding between themselves and the trade union movement when they have confronted during their
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      period of office the miners, the railway workers and the Post Office workers? Time and again they have told us, in this House, of our wickedness in dragging the country down. Let the Government, therefore, adopt the opportunity offered by the amendments to postpone the operation of the freeze.
      The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster also gave the House a lucid explanation of the various rates of pay that trade unions had secured or failed to secure. There are various types of agreement in trade union negotiations, all of which—including, I suspect, some of the lowlier ones—stem from what is known as a Wages Council order. Those of us who have worked a lifetime in the trade union movement do not regard Wages Council orders as trade union agreements. However. I have no doubt that they would be included as such in the list drawn up by the hon. Gentleman. They are probably the worst type of agreement, because they are drawn up with the assistance of appointed members—in other words, the Government have a say in the agreement.
      The trade union officer is not always in a position to demand. It is not always a question of holding the country to ransom. The majority of trade unionists are decent, responsible citizens, and what they want is a decent, fair standard of living. To freeze wages for workers who are on the lowest possible rates of pay is nothing less than criminal.
      The Government have been courting the trade unions, trying to establish a better relationship. They expected to be able to do that in 30 days, or in the period when they realised that their policy of confrontation had failed—when they realised that their policy of always saying, "Blame the trade unions for our economic plight", had failed only a few short months ago. They apparently expect relations to be so improved that we should accept the kind of offers that they have made. But in the light of all their retrograde policies and their own contributions to raising the cost of living, it just is not on and it will not work.
      9.45 p.m.
      We say in these amendments, "Go back once more. Postpone the Bill. Learn something about the trade union movement, and about the real impact of your actions on the people, and not what the

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      mainly Government-backed and supported Press tells you. Find out what the impact will be on the low-paid workers when, by your own direct action, the wages they sorely need to maintain a reasonable standard of life are to be withheld". I come back to the point that I made earlier. How can the Minister reconcile the increases in food prices and other commodities with the disgustingly low rates of pay for agricultural workers and workers in the retail food and distributive trades? In all fairness, as their wages are so low that they cannot have contributed to the inflation from which they suffer, the Minister should give an assurance tonight that he will agree to the wage increases already negotiated for the agricultural and retail food and distributive trade workers. If the Minister gives those assurances, we may feel a little more friendly disposed towards his pernicious freeze.
      Mr. Peter Trew: I disagree with the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Torney) when he says that the Government's present measures do not have the overwhelming support of the British public. On 15th August, last year, a Republican President of the United States of America, dedicated to private enterprise and to the principles of the free market, introduced a similar measure. He did so with the overwhelming support of the American public. I have no doubt that that action caused great theological difficulties for his supporters in the Republican Party, just as the Government's measures are in principle repugnant to many of their supporters.
      However, I believe that the President of the United States was responding to what may be the most important political theology of all, namely, that in the last analysis a Government must govern. Perhaps the most important of all duties with which a government is charged is the creation of wealth, because without the creation of new wealth no political party can carry out the social programme to which it is committed. When the ability to create wealth is impaired, possibly permanently, by a dangerous rate of inflation, the Government have no option but to take quick and decisive action.
      Not only is it important to create wealth, but the way in which that wealth is redistributed is also important, and
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      it is right that all sections of the community should express their opinions on how it should be done, none less than the TUC and CBI. It is not surprising that views on how wealth should be redistributed entered into the Downing Street talks. However, we must be absolutely clear on what lies within the prerogative of the TUC and CBI and what lies within the prerogative of the House.
      There can be no question that when it comes to matters of Government policy, such as taxation, industrial relations, housing finance, legislation in connection with the European Economic Community, the prerogative rests with Parliament. I do not believe that the Government can or have the right to strike bargains with organised industry, or the trade union movement, in respect of those matters without recourse to Parliament.
      It is perfectly legitimate for the TUC and the CBI to express their views on these matters and to say how they might affect their ability to carry out any bargain that is struck. They can legitimately put their views to Parliament, and in the time we shall have as a result of the freeze, it is right that we should devote a great deal of thought to this and to the measures that will follow the ending of the freeze. But there is no doubt that the British public want the freeze now and because the amendment seeks to delay it, I shall oppose it.
      Mr. Neil McBride: The hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Trew) says that he knows the British public support the freeze. That statement is hypothetical, because the British public has not been consulted. To relate this argument to the American model is, in essence of relativity, futile.
      These amendments are relevant and necessary. It is imperative that no obstacle be placed in the way of a voluntary agreement being reached by the TUC and CBI. I commend to the House the powerful arguments contained in a brilliant speech by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Ronald King Murray).
      How can a Tory Government declare that it is their policy to combat inflation when before next spring there will be a rush of price rises to cancel out any advantages of the freeze? The Bill was

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      conceived in haste, and the Government do not have a clue. Their attitude shows a political bankruptcy; they are playing things by ear from day to day. I repeat the challenge made by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Leith: what will a Tory Government do if either the TUC or CBI emerges with an idea that looks like solving the crisis? Clearly they would have a duty to the nation and to the House to let us know if that were to happen. Fundamentally the freeze is a fragile effort: the legal framework bears all the signs of fragility.
      The proposals in the Bill have not the active, voluntary co-operation of retailers and manufacturers, and will collapse completely. The Government cannot say that they have co-operation. All their promises are based on co-operation that they have not secured. In the retail trade the special offer device shows that the intentions of the proposed legislation can be defeated. The Sunday Times of 12th November said:
      "Last week we bought 25 special-offer goods which could all rise for this reason. They are all popular products, likely to be found in any home: Heinz Baked Beans (1½p off); Lyons' Coffee (5p); Birds Eye Fingers (1½p); Kiwi Shoe Polish (5½p); Omo (5½p); Squeezy (2½p) Macleans toothpaste (4p), and so on. Altogether the 25 items cost us £4.14½p.… we could find ourselves having to pay £5.20½p.… that is 18 per cent. more—…".
      That cannot be denied, because the Bill cannot prevent it. The Government will allow products to return to their previous price, and this shows that despite legislation the actual prices paid by shoppers for groceries will rise as special offers end.
      Consequently, prices will rise, and inflation will occur in this field as a result. It will be in addition to the rise of 21 per cent. in food prices since this Government came to power—something infamous for which they can blame no one but themselves. Even here the Government shirk responsibility. They should act as the watchdog, and not devolve this responsibility onto the housewife, who has a difficult job in combating ever-increasing prices.
      Mr. Pardoe: The hon. Gentleman says that because there are reductions on the manufacturer's recommended price, retailers will be able, even under the terms of the Bill, to increase the price up to the
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      full manufacturer's level. There is nothing in the Bill that allows that. Clause 2 deals with it. If the hon. Member reads subsection (1) of that Clause 2 he will see that it would be impossible to do that.
      Mr. McBride: It is my view that it would not, and I state it again.
      A fundamental weakness of the Bill was pinpointed in a statement by the Department of Trade and Industry when it said that it could not police more than a handful of companies dealing with each product. To combat inflation, guarantees against price increases must be given principally on food prices, rents in the public and private sectors and mortgages. On 6th November I questioned the Secretary of State for Wales about the evils here.
      I think that VAT will contribute substantially to inflation. School meal prices will go up, a declared policy of the Government. These prices will increase, and no one can deny that they will contribute towards an inflationary situation. House prices and mortgage repayments are both rising, and 4 million families paying off their mortgages will have to pay ½ per cent. higher interest from 1st January next year. The cost of an overdraft will soon rise by ½ per cent. Will not this contribute to inflation? Is not it wrong? Is there no control here?
      Clearly the Amendment is necessary. When the Minister of Agriculture. charged with the administration of the freeze regulations affecting our food prices, declares that the cash margin rule will be exremely difficult to enforce, a Government Department is openly confessing inability to control what it is supposed to control.
      Mr. Raymond Gower: Can the hon. Gentleman explain how the Amendments will lessen the inflationary tendency? How will they reduce the number of price increases?
      Mr. McBride: Clearly, the Amendments are directed at securing an agreement with the CBI and the TUC, and agreement in the fields which I have mentioned would clearly help.
      10.0 p.m.
      The hon. Member for Barry (Mr. Gower) is trained in the law, and logic is a prerequisite of that training. Council

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      house rents should have been stabilised at the level of 30th September, 1972. The increases in the Housing Finance Act should not have been implemented, because that measure is harmful on two counts. It is at once inflationary and certainly conducive to the generation of massive wage demands.
      The hon. Member for Chertsey (Mr. Grylls) declared that the Tory Government package represented hope. I remind the hon. Gentleman, who, unfortunately. has departed, that the council house tenants in my constituency can see no hope reflected in the increased rents that they will have to pay in Swansea, nor will any of the five million council house tenants in the country feel that way. The hon. Member for Barry will recall the arguments made against the increase.
      Millions of £s are being taken from the purchasing power of housewives, and no one will deny that wage demands are made in the kitchen. If the housewife needs more money, she says that she needs more, and says it forcibly. That demand goes on to the trade union branch, and so wage demands are generated. Those who do not know the trade union movement or the working class will be ignorant of this, but I am proud of belonging to both, and I know.
      Once again the Tory Government create a situation that will breed inflation. When trade union leaders reflect the wishes of their trade union members—here I declare an interest, being a member of the Amalgamated Union of Engineering Workers—who make their wage claims in the branches, those leaders reflect the receipt of these claims by lodging wage demands on their members' behalf.
      It matters little who is the person making the wage claim; he is making it on behalf of, in my case, over a million fellow members, and he reflects the mood and opinion of his fellow members. These trade unionists must make their words plain in order to meet the cost of living and to maintain the standard of living; they are justified in so doing if both these things are attacked, as the Government are attacking them.
      Yet when the trade union leader put forward these wage demands, hon. Members opposite label them as extremists. How many times have I heard that term?
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      Who will deny it? Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite should have a care; they are prisoners of their own words. Everyone of them has made that charge.
      A consumer watchdog will be of dubious value because manufacturers will probably get permission to increase prices as the prices of imported materials rise. The Government face problems of a nightmare nature in making their short term measures work—and after the freeze they will have to face the upsurge of prices that will occur.
      Pressure from all sides forced the Prime Minister to declare that he would give the pensioners the £10 gift before Christmas. The Government were not originally prepared to do it. Even so, this £10 sop to the pensioners is an affront to their dignity. They want, and should have, an increase in their pension. The Government should attack and control general price increases, the level of rents for council and private houses, the price of houses, and land prices, ending all speculation in land. They are not doing enough. The nation now sees inflation as occurring at the hands of those who promised firm Government. The Government are weak, inefficient, politically bankrupt, and give no hope to the nation.
      The hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Trew) said that one should kick a little less. That is all right when one has a lot, but right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have voted against the agricultural workers receiving an increase. Those who voted against it should remember that. On all counts, the Government should consider seriously the arguments for the amendments. Clearly, the Government have made a mighty error. They are a weak Government and they have failed the country. We must do all in our power to rescue them from the mess. The tragedy is That the nation may have to wait some time before the Government have the courage to go to the people. Meanwhile, the country can survey the Goverment's lack of achievement—a lack of achievement which will merit their complete rejection.
      Mr. Wilfred Proudfoot: I should love to follow the hon. Member for Swansea, East (Mr. McBride) in detail, and to deal with the prices which he quoted. Obviously,

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      he knows nothing about retail distribution. More amazingly, the hon. Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Torney)—I am sorry he is not here—who claims to have been in the business all his life, also knows nothing about it.
      Retail distribution is nothing more or less than a pipeline. Water goes into one end of a pipeline and emerges as water at the other and that is how the distribution business functions in this country. Retail margins earned by the retailers, particularly in the food industry, over the last 25 years, have fallen. If any hon. Member can point to a store in which they have increased, I shall immediately tell him why. It is because that store has widened its lines of merchandise. The hon. Member for Bradford, South, therefore, was right in saying that the lowest paid workers in the community worked in retail distribution. The farmworkers, the nurses and others today are unable to get along without an emotional noise such as was made about the cinema musicians. In my lifetime, cinema musicians captured the people's hearts when the talkies were introduced.
      No trade union should be put in that position. I heartily support the freeze. I believe in a free market economy, but the Government are taking the only course possible at present. However, any hon. Gentleman who wishes to question the facts about the retail trade should do so. The truth is available.
      The one aspect of the policy which I dislike is that once again the Government appear to be blaming the poor old shopkeeper. Anyone who borrows from the Library the "History of Retailing" will discover that retailers' backs are broad—they have suffered this treatment since the beginning of time.
      It is not long since it was illegal in London to sell anything which one had not produced oneself. There is a world history of legislative bodies knocking retailers. Thus, I implore the Committee not to single out the retailer for criticism. He is merely a pipeline through which the goods reach the customer.
      Mr. Ted Leadbitter: While the hon. Member is making accusations about the Opposition—and I agree with much of what he has said—
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      will he note that even the Prime Minister has told the housewife to watch the retailer? Will he not concede therefore that the Prime Minister is the nigger in the woodpile?
      Mr. Proudfoot: I am prepared to accept that. He picked the best bunch of people to police his squeeze Bill. When the Trade Descriptions Act became law the complaints were incredible and I could recount many complaints which I have heard during the past few days. Nevertheless inflation is with us and we must attempt somehow to stop it.
      I attended a Conference in July when many of our leading economists lectured about inflation for 10 minutes at a time, under the auspices of the Institute of Economic Affairs. We were five storeys up. They had all been so gloomy that at, the end of the day, I felt that I should leave by the top window and not by the lift. Not one of those lectures had the full answer. Many spoke in the terms which my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) and my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) would have used. I am basically a monetarist, but I am also a politician, who was born not in Birmingham, or in Wolverhampton, as my right hon. Friend was, but in a distressed area. I was born in a coal mining town where 30 per cent. of the workers were on the dole.
      If Parliament were elected for 10 years at a time—which, thank heaven, it is not—we could go ahead and all be monetarist. But how on earth we should contain the revolutionary attitude of people outside the House by being pure monetarists I do not know. For my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West to pretend that the war against inflation can be won with one weapon is like imagining that the Ancient Britons went to war with one weapon. They had spears, swords and catapults; and a modern army has many weapons.
      The Government must use several weapons. Already, to my satisfaction, they have started to turn down the money supply. But this stop to vigorous wage increases had to occur. I hate it. I think that Clive Jenkins is behaving exactly as my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West

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      would do if he happened to be leading that trade union. And I should be doing the same as Mr. Jenkins if I were in his place. But the House has the duty to protect the people of our country from monopolists.
      Both sides of the House whoop it up when we have a go at the capitalists or at private enterprise. The Government are to propose further legislation against monopolies. I am delighted by that. I once said in the House that I would gaol the men who broke the monopoly laws passed by Parliament. But the Opposition are now supporting the monopoly attitude of the trade unions. We have come to a juncture in our history when trade unionists have realised that they have monopoly power. Eventually, it will worry the Opposition just as much as it will worry the Government side.
      How do we curtail or contain the monopoly power of the trade unions? It seems to have escaped the notice of most hon. Members that on 1st January we shall have a tariff cut of 20 per cent. That is probably the only practical way of doing anything to deal with the problem. Within 90 days of 1st January, when we enter the European Economic Community, we shall have that tariff reduction.
      The problem facing the House is that of trade union monopoly power. One hon. Member said earlier that the trade union leaders were castigated by the Government as Left-wing revolutionaries and militants. I do not think that that is right. They can only keep office and moderate their own militants further down the heap. If he asks my hon. Friends he will find that is right.
      With the 90-day freeze I am convinced that the Government are on the right tack. I am sure we have got to have this clean karate chop on prices and wages so that the whole of the community has time to think. The trade unions have been shouting for bigger wage increases and at the same time saying that it is the Government's fault that the pensioners are not looked after. I implore the trade unions to think of the rest of the community when they seek higher wage increases.
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      [Mr. E. L. MALLALIEU in the Chair]
      10.15 p.m.
      During the talks at Downing Street, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister offered a rise of £2. The hon. Member for Bradford, South must know that that would be the biggest wage increase that men and women in the distributive trade had ever received. The Prime Minister said we must look at the poorer people in the community and we are. I fully support the idea of a 90-day freeze.
      Mr. Leslie Huckfield: I shall not attempt to follow the hon. Member for Brighouse and Spenborough (Mr. Proudfoot) on his thrilling seminar on the retail trade; nor shall I attempt to follow his false analysis of the so-called monopolies of the trade union movement. Most objective economists would say that if the trade unions are acquiring any elements of monopoly power, that is the kind of power that they need to deal with the monopoly power of the employers.
      What we are seeing is not the development of monopoly power by the trade union movement, but the development of countervailing power. If we are getting an increase in the bargaining power of the trade unions—and it is a thesis that I can hardly support—it is the kind of development that employers have been encouraging for years by their own monopoly tendencies.
      I occupy a unique position in the Committee on the subject of prices and incomes policies. Had it not been for the attempt of the last Labour Government to introduce a prices and incomes policy, I should not be here. My predecessor had strong views on a prices and incomes policy. The General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers' Union—my own union—also has strong views, which I share.
      I was one of those who originally bought the Labour Government's idea of a prices and incomes policy, because we were told—and I then believed sincerely—that that was the way in which we could do something about the wages of the lower-paid workers. Indeed, that was the line on which the Labour Party of the day sold its policy.
      But I have learnt, as I hope many of my colleagues have, that we have a situation in which the earnings of lower

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      paid workers are not helped by prices and incomes policies, and precisely the way in which the Government are carrying out this freeze shows directly and deliberately that lower-paid workers are not helped by this type of legislation. Indeed, if the Government want to show the country that they genuinely intend to help the lower-paid workers, there are two prima facie cases before them at the moment. I refer, of course, to the wages of the agricultural workers and to the hospital ancillary workers. From the experience of the Labour Government, and from experience of the way in which the Government are now applying the freeze legislation, I repeat that legislation of this kind will not help the lower-paid.
      The other lesson which the Government do not seem to have learnt is that the people of this country cannot be conned all of the time. Minister after Minister has appeared on television telling us what moderate men they all are. They are trying to convince us that they are out for the good of the country as a whole, that they do not pursue private profit, that they do not pursue sectional interests, that they are doing it only for the good of the country, and that it is the nasty trade union militants who are letting the country down.
      I am sure that the vast majority of people do not buy that line, because the vast majority of people know that if trade unionists are militant, if trade unionists put in for wage increases, they are only responding to the price increases which the wives of trade unionists face in the shops every week. What is a trade unionist supposed to do when his wife complains, when he finds that bus fares have gone up, when food prices have gone up, when his rent has increased? Is he supposed to take it all lying down and let inflation march over him?
      If trade unionists put in wage demands, if they are militant, it is because they find that the whole atmosphere, the whole environment of prices and inflation, is running away faster and faster in front of them. The only ingredient which might be successful and might lead to any kind of prices policy is a statutory control of prices. That is the only kind of precondition which might even be acceptable as a bargaining beginning for the trade union movement.
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      If the Government tell the Committee that price freeze legislation will not work, that statutory controls will not work, let them follow the example of the Dutch, the French, and the Swedes who, from time to time, have all had examples of direct price control legislation. For the Minister to tell the Committee that price control is impracticable, having had so much legislative experience in Common Market countries, is a nonsense. If we are to create any kind of climate for any kind of moderation of wage demands, for the slowing down of inflation, statutory control of prices is an absolute precondition and is the only precondition that would be possibly acceptable as a start for bargaining for the trade union movement.
      As a Member of Parliament, what right do I have to ask my constituents to hold in check their wage demands when, as a deliberate result of the Government's legislation, their council house rents will be increased? What is right about that? What social justice is there in that? What equity is there in that? What sense of decency, what sense of fair play?
      What right has any Member of Parliament to ask his constituents to hold in check their wage demands when, by the same token, by a second piece of legislation, the Government are deliberately raising rents? What right has any Member of Parliament to ask his constituents to hold in check their wage demands when, at the same time, that Member of Parliament, a member of this honourable House, is bound to know that any kind of dividend freeze can always be recouped afterwards, because a dividend postponement, which is all it can be, is something which can be given out in additional dividends later?
      On the other hand, a wage increase forgone is a wage increase forgone for ever. So here we are again with another piece of completely unjust, completely unfair legislation, which the Government are putting before the House. Again, the Government ask that trade unionists should restrain their wage demands when they adimt that they are to do nothing about controlling food prices. What social justice, what kind of fair play, what kind of decency is there in such claims?
      That is why I cannot ask my constituents to restrain their wage demands. I cannot ask my fellow members of the

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      Transport and General Workers' Union not to put in for wage increases when, as a deliberate result of the Government's policies, rents, prices, particularly food prices, and dividends are to rise regardless.
      The answer from the Government, the answer that the economic analysts have been giving, is that wages make up about 60 per cent. or 70 per cent. of the gross national product and, consequently, it is that 60 per cent. or 70 per cent. upon which we have to concentrate. Although wages might make up some 60 per cent. or 70 per cent. of the gross national product, the political significance of that 10 per cent. of GNP which is dividends—it may even be 4 per cent.—and payment of incomes in rents is far greater than that 4 per cent. or 10 per cent.
      For Ministers to say that we have to concentrate on that 60 per cent. of the gross
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      national product is completely to ignore the far greater significance of the remaining percentage in political terms. I say again to Ministers that they must come to terms with the fact that it is unjust, unfair, indecent in many ways to tell the Committee that only one section of the community is to be penalised, which is what this freeze asks.
      The Government have put the blame for the failure of the TUC-CBI talks on the trade union movement. I hope that the TUC will go on asking for a freezing of council house rents and food prices and for a legal freezing and statutory system of price controls. Those are the preconditions on which I should be prepared to talk about any package like this. That is the only system which the trade union movement will accept. It was the fault, not of the TUC, but of the Government that the talks broke down.
      Mr. Patrick Jenkin: We have had a thoughtful debate. In some senses it has been more like a Second Reading debate. Major issues have been raised, and I shall discuss some of them later. I will deal first with the amendments—which have been mentioned from time to time by hon. Members.
      Amendment No. 1 proposes that there should be a delay in the operation of the standstill after the Royal Assent for 30 days or for such longer period as might be decided. I cannot advise the Committee to accept the amendment. It has been recognised on both sides of the Committee that the need is for an immediate standstill in order to hold the position pending the proposals which the Government will put forward as Stage 2 of the operation. The right hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) said that the Bill made the resumption of the tripartite talks more difficult and therefore less likely. I do not accept that, but even if it were so the Government would have to weigh that disadvantage—if it were a disadvantage—with the need to protect the situation in the interim and to halt the rising spiral of costs and prices. Therefore, we believe that an immediate standstill is an essential precondition to the working out of Stage 2. I cannot accept the further delay which the amendment suggests.
      Amendment No. 2 suggests that the period, instead of 90 days as in the Bill, should be 30 days. In my view, that would be unrealistically too short a period to evolve the Stage 2 proposals. and to engage in the necessary consultations and to make them effective.
      Mr. Robert Maclennan: If the hon. Gentleman considers 30 days to be too short a period to work out the Stage 2 proposals, why did the Government, in the Downing Street talks, give the trade union movement only seven days?
      Mr. Jenkin: The talks had continued for over three months. That perhaps makes the hon. Gentleman's suggestion a little unreal.
      Amendment No. 5 suggests that the power to extend for 60 days is not necessary and should be removed from the Bill. But we need to guard against the risk that the working out of the Stage 2 proposals may take longer than 90 days.
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      Amendment No. 3 suggests that the Bill should cease to have effect 90 days from 6th November. In the Bill, we are following entirely the precedent of the Labour Government's 1966 freeze when the 12-month period ran from 20th July. which was the date of the then Prime Minister's announcement.
      My right hon. and learned Friend dealt with Amendment No. 4, which relates to the publication of the proposals before extending the period. I must advise the Committee to reject the amendments which we are debating.
      I will now deal with the many specific points which have been raised in this lengthy debate. Rent increases were mentioned by the hon. Members for York (Mr. Alexander W. Lyon) and Islington, East (Mr. John D. Grant). I did not hear the whole of the speech of the hon. Member for Islington, East. Both hon. Members asked whether increases in rents which are due to be made on 1st April, 1973, for certain council houses will be cancelled if the standstill is extended into the 60 days after the 90 days.
      The Bill provides for a standstill extending in the first instance to 90 days after enactment. We have every hope that we will be able to reach agreement in that period on the main objectives of the second phase of our programme and to introduce legislation, if necessary, to implement them. If we cannot, and if it becomes necessary to extend the standstill, a new situation will arise and we shall have to take account of it in formulating our proposals. There is no question of our repealing the Housing Finance Act and resiling from our intention that fair rents should apply to council as well as to private unfurnished tenancies, and that existing rents should progress to fair rents.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Tugendhat) developed an interesting argument based on some figures which he put to the House. I find it a little difficult to accept the conclusion that he drew from those figures. If, as my hon. Friend sought to argue, the majority of settlements since January of this year were between £2 and £2·60, I am bound to

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      tell him that there would have been no need for tripartite talks, no need for the £2–£2·60 package and no need for the Bill. By September, with a rising trend of wage rates, the figure had reached 17 per cent. over a period of 12 months earlier. That, by any standard, is an alarming increase in the rise of basic wages rates. Perhaps the explanation of my hon. and learned Friend's figures is that they were limited to basic minimum wage rates or minimum earnings, whereas the total level is affected by the overall level of the rise in wage rates and earnings.
      As my hon. Friend frankly said, his figures concentrated on the settlements expressed in percentage terms. He quoted the settlements which were arrived at in pounds/pence terms, and many of the percentage settlements were well over £2 or £2·60. I agree with my hon. Friend that the package would have been advantageous in the circumstances in which it was put forward, namely, when it was linked to moderation in the rate of price inflation and where it offered special help to the low paid.
      The hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) asked about the committee of 20 under the chairmanship of Mr. Morse and the representations that we have made to it. The hon. Gentleman will recollect that at last year's IMF annual meeting my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer put forward a substantial package of proposals for the reform of the international monetary system. The proposals were developed at this year's meeting of the Commonwealth Finance Ministers and were taken further at this year's IMF meeting. These proposals, together with others, are now under discussion through the committee of 20.
      I hope that that answers that point. I am sorry if I misunderstood the hon. Gentleman's other point about widows. It it is in order, I will briefly state the position relating to the £10 bonus which is being paid to pensioners, including all the categories of widows who will benefit from that bonus. About 8 million people, all told, will be entitled to receive the payment. They include retired pensioners, including those receiving supplementary pensions, who account for about 7½ million.
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      In addition, the payments will be made to national insurance widows over 60; war widows over 60 without retirement pension on their own insurance; industrial death benefit widows over 60 without retirement benefit on their own insurance; war pensioners—over 65 if men and 60 if women—with unemployability supplement; industrial disablement pensioners with unemployability supplement invalidity pensioners aged 65 for men and 60 for women, and those in receipt of attendance allowances at age 65 for men and age 60 for women if not receiving one of the above benefits.
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: The Minister will be aware that some of those people are, unfortunately, either in old people's homes or in hospital, and in the normal course must make a contribution towards their keep. If he cannot answer now, will he consider the fact that, as this is a bonus, these people should receive it complete and not have to pay some of it over to the hospital authorities or to the old people's home?
      Mr. Dalyell: If it is considered that old-age pensioners and the categories the Chief Secretary has mentioned need some form of protection, on what basis of logic is this protection denied to widows under 60, who may, as he knows, be in equal need?
      Mr. Jenkin: There is always difficulty when lines have to be drawn. The logic is that a substantial number of the widows under 60 are in employment, whereas the numbers in employment over that age are much fewer.
      In answer to the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis), it is important that the right answer should be given. I do not have it to hand, so perhaps I can write to the hon. Gentleman.
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: I am obliged to the Chief Secretary.
      Mr. Jenkin: The hon. Member for Islington, East also asked a question about the position of the London allowance for teachers. There was no question of the management side being prevented from making an offer. On the Friday before the standstill an offer of a revised allowance of £133 was made—an improvement of £15. The colleges of further

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      education teachers accepted the offer. The other teachers' panel rejected the same offer. Therefore, further implementation of their claim will be subject to the terms of the standstill and must be covered by it. That follows inevitably from the general provision of the policy.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) asked what was the position particularly for steel prices under the European Communities Act and our obligations under the Rome and Paris Treaties. It remains our objective in the longer term to get the British Steel Corporation on to a sound financial footing. In the context of this interim Bill, as the White Paper makes very clear, the standstill applies to steel prices as to prices in other nationalised industries.
      Our Community partners share our concern in combating inflation. Indeed, this was made very clear both at the Summit conference attended by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and, more recently, at the Finance Ministers' meeting in Luxembourg, attended by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment and myself, We have already had some discussions with the European Commission on the question of steel pricing. These will certainly continue, and there are good indications that they will prove constructive and that we shall meet with understanding. Although there are real problems I do not think that these should be exaggerated. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry has assured the House that it will be kept informed of the progress of these discussions.
      Mr. Biffen: Can my hon. Friend clear up one residual doubt in my mind following that interesting statement? During the period of the application of the Counter-Inflation (Temporary Provisions) proposals now before the Committee will the British Steel Corporation be using its existing price lists?
      Mr. Jenkin: That is a separate question. The question of the price list is based on the basing points. Ministers at the Department of Trade and Industry have been answering question on that. I would not like to add anything to what they have said.
      Mr. Biffen: My hon. Friend will appreciate that this is a point of very real and central concern. Will he appreciate that if the British Steel Corporation has to switch from its existing price list to a basing points system there will inevitably be winners and losers among steel users? As the Government are proposing to take powers to compel reductions in prices of those whose raw material costs may fall there are very serious administrative consequences, unless the Government are prepared to take consequential action to pass on those reductions.
      Mr. Jeakin: I very much appreciate the importance of what my hon. Friend is saying, but his questions are going further than those he raised in his speech, and I really do not want to add to what has been said by my right hon. and hon. Friends at the Department of Trade and Industry on this complicated and technical matter.
      I turn to the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Brighouse and Spenborough (Mr. Proudfoot), who talked about the problems that retailers have been facing and will face under the provisions of this Bill. I remind my hon. Friend that the Minister for Trade and Consumer Affairs made the point in his speech in the debate that retailers do indeed stand in the front line in this battle; and that the Retail Consortium has indicated that it is backing the policy of the White Paper and the Bill. He paid tribute to the retailers, of whom the overwhelming majority are ready and willing to co-operate and to play their part in helping to make the Government's policy work.
      Finally, in the last two or three minutes I have, I would very briefly deal with the argument put by a number of Opposition speakers that somehow we are not entitled to ask for agreement in the tripartite talks. The right hon. Member for East Ham, North, quoted the statement put out by the TUC Economic Committee which suggested that there has been no significant advance on the proposals of 26th September. I just cannot accept that. The proposals which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister put forward at the last meeting added to or developed the original proposals which had been put forward: on food prices by the proposal for having joint monitoring arrangements,

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      and the food retailers' undertakings and by the Government's offer to use its best endeavours to moderate the upward trend of prices; on rents, by increases in the needs allowance for rent rebates and allowances and consultations with local authorities about moderating the increases in rates; on poverty surtax, by proposals for extending the periods for family income supplement, and free school meals and welfare milk; on pensions, by the proposal of a lump sum payment, and on taxation, by reiterating the Chancellor's promise to consider at Budget time the proposals in respect of indirect taxation.
      I really cannot accept the argument put forward so often in this debate that the Government remained rigid, adamant and unyielding. On the contrary, we have always made it clear that the proposals we put forward were open to negotiation, and in the final package which my right hon. Friend put forward there were nine points of which I have mentioned some, which were put forward as a total package then available for discussion. The Committee will know that at that stage the trade unions indicated that it was not a basis for negotiation, and the talks broke down. I dealt on Monday night, a week ago, with the argument about taxation, social security and housing, and the argument by hon. Members opposite on those issues is wholly misconceived.
      The vast bulk of tax reductions has gone to ordinary wage and salary earners. There is a whole new range of social benefits for those in the greatest need, the poorer families, and children, the disabled, the sick and the chronic sick; and there is the annual entitlement to pensions uprating and the national insurance benefits.
      I really cannot accept the argument that we are not entitled to ask for co-operation in the fight against inflation. On the contrary, it is in the interests of all people, whoever they are, that the trend of rising costs and prices should be halted, and that we should all work together to achieve that.
      Mr. J. T. Price Mr. J. T. Price rose—
      Mr. Jenkin: I am sorry; I cannot give way.
      Mr. J. T. Price Mr. J. T. Price rose—
      The Deputy Chairman: Order. The Minister is not giving way. The hon. Gentleman must resume his seat.
      Mr. Jenkin: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in his Guildhall speech last night:
      "The Government is now working on proposals for the next phase to present to Parliament. And we shall stand ready to discuss them, and if possible agree them, with the two sides of industry, because they will be designed to work towards the objectives on which we were all agreed in the tripartite talks."
      It is because this amendment, by delaying the operation of the standstill and allowing inflation to continue to gather pace, would make it more and not less difficult to reach acceptable proposals for the next phase that I must ask the Committee to reject it.
      10.45 p.m.
      Mr. Healey: Our debate this evening on Clause 1 has covered the central policy issue which will determine whether the Bill helps or hinders the cause of stopping inflation. The debate has been centred on the relationship between the freeze as a short-term expedient, with what the Minister for Trade and Consumer Affairs described as having rough edges, and the long-term policy for inflation which must follow and be capable of containing pressures far more powerful than those which now exist precisely as a result of the operation of the freeze.
      The purpose of the first two amendments is to delay the introduction of the freeze until agreement is reached on alternative means of controlling inflation, and then to limit the length of the freeze to 30 days, which would give sufficient time to get legislation through the House if legislation is required.
      The Minister for Trade and Consumer Affairs argued that the Government must have the right to continue the freeze until the end of April if necessary, in fact for a full six months from the date of the Prime Minister's initial announcement last week. The Minister said that this was necessary because it might take a full six months to prepare and carry through the follow-up legislation, and he clearly assumed that legislation would be required.
      The public might be surprised that a Government which first threatened legislation providing for the statutory control

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      of inflation as early as midsummer this year, and which put forward detailed proposals two months ago during the talks at Chequers, still have no legislation ready and still imagine that discussions inside the Government may have to continue for another four or five months. But the Opposition are not surprised. As has been suggested in many speeches today, a freeze is difficult enough, but it is child's play compared with a statutory policy for controlling increases in prices and incomes according to clear criteria.
      How can the base on which increases are permitted be defined? On prices, how is protection to be given against changes in product design or quality? On wages, how can changes in the nature of the work done be coped with? How can the shifts from piecework to time rates which are taking place throughout industry be coped with? How can plant bargaining be dealt with? What sort of enforcement machinery is there to be and who is to apply it? Will it be mandatory or permissive?
      One only has to think about these problems which all have to be solved in the follow-up legislation to realise that no long-term policy for coping with prices and incomes can work properly without the willing support of all concerned, and no long-term policy can work at all without at least the acquiescence of those concerned. The lesson that has been driven home by the experience of the 30 or 40 countries, including our own since the war, which at varying times have tried to control prices and incomes by legislation is that there must be acquiescence and willing support and understanding by those concerned.
      The real trouble is that the Government are still totally confused about what they want to achieve in the legislation and how to get it. They are more than confused. They are deeply divided both on the ends and the means of a policy to control inflation. This is why, so far, we have had no argument from the Government Front Bench, either in the debates today or in the discussions in the last ten days, to justify or even to explain the complete somersault which they have executed in their attitude to a prices and incomes policy.
      All we have had—repeated over and over again until one almost screams out
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      —is the bald statement that it is the Government's policy in the national interest to say that what was black is now white, and that what was bad is now good. But we have had no argument whatever, indeed no explanation, why the Conservative Party now believes that what it has been saying over the last 10 years was wrong.
      The hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen), as so often in the past, made a withering attack on the reversal in Government policy. He was honest with the Committee. He made it clear that he does not want a voluntary policy for dealing with prices and incomes. He admitted that he was glad that the talks in Downing Street had failed because, he said, a voluntary policy would only be possible if the Government were also to reverse their policy in other respects. He is quite right. That is why the Downing Street talks broke down—because the Government, who have reversed their policies and who on 90 per cent. of the issues have broken the promises on the basis of which they entered this House two years ago, are curiously reluctant to complete the process and to make sence of their new attitude.
      The Government, as the Chief Secretary made clear in his speech tonight, and as the Prime Minister told the City at the Guildhall last night, want a voluntary policy. But the Government must realise that if they want the ends, they must accept the means. They must satisfy the natural and inevitable demands of ordinary men and women that, if they are to accept restraint on incomes, the Government should effectively control the cost of living as a whole. It is the rise in the cost of living as a whole which is fuelling demands on the shop floor throughout the country for increases in earnings. The cost of living, as a whole, for ordinary men and women includes food, housing, justice for their retired parents and reform of the Industrial Relations Act.
      The Chief Secretary was more than disingenuous when he attempted to argue that the Government had made reasonable concessions to the TUC in the talks and that the TUC's attack on the Government for making further negotiation impossible was unjustified. The plain fact is, as has been made crystal clear

      373
      by Ministers today, that the Government declared very late in the day, after there had been discussions on these issues at Chequers and Downing Street, that certain major items were to be outside the scope of negotiations. They included pensions, rents, the Industrial Relations Act and food, in so far as any effect on prices arose from the operation of the common agricultural policy.
      What many hon. Members must find puzzling in the extreme is that a Government who were prepared to wreck the negotiations for a voluntary policy are now taking powers to do all the things which could have produced voluntary agreement and made the Bill unnecessary. They could override any earlier legislation, including the Housing Finance Act and the European Communities Bill, if Ministers felt it to be necessary. If they had indicated their readiness in Downing Street to do this, the talks would not have broken down. If they are prepared now to be honest with the TUC on these matters and only if they are prepared to make meaningful this paragraph in the schedule is there any chance of resuming the conversations and getting the sort of policy that Ministers still say that they really want.
      It is vital that the Government should be prepared to override previous legislation if they are to have any policy which is to contain the sort of pressures which will have built up as a result of the operation of the freeze and the freeze lasts, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman insisted it must be able to last, until the end of April.
      I was staggered by what the Chief Secretary told us a moment ago. As I understand it, he was suggesting that if the freeze continues until the end of April and wages remain totally frozen, and at the same time there is a totally ineffective freeze on prices, the Government will insist on carrying through the next round of rent increases at the beginning of April while the freeze is still continuing. If the Government do not mean that, they must make it clear at this moment to the House and to the country—[Interruption.] Unfortunately, a few words from the new Minister who is supposed to protect the consumer appear to have persuaded the Chief Secretary not to be bold enough to answer my question—
      Mr. Patrick Jenkin: The right hon. Gentleman should not stoop to making that kind of remark. I stand entirely by the words that I used in my wind-up speech, which were very carefully chosen. I advise the right hon. Gentleman to read them again tomorrow, because they do not bear any relation to what he has just said.
      Mr. Healey: All that I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that we must thank God that, in spite of the guillotine, we have two more full days in which to probe the Government on these issues. I can assure him that my right hon. and hon. Friends who speak tomorrow will do so.
      The right hon. and learned Gentleman wobbled, wriggled and was arcane and uncertain in what he said about steel prices. It was impossible for anyone to make out what will happen and whether the Government will use the powers that they are taking if they do not get what they want from the European Commission.
      The same is true of food prices. Are the Government prepared to use their powers to prevent the increases in food prices which will begin before the freeze ends as a result of the operation of the common agricultural policy, if, as the right hon. Gentleman suggested, the freeze might go on until the end of April?
      If the Government are prepared to make it clear that these matters are open to a change of policy and to negotiation, they can and should re-open the talks with the CBI and the TUC immediately. The right hon. Gentleman recognises that the freeze has rough edges. I warn him that the freeze has sharp edges which will cut to ribbons any possibility of a concensus if it continues for a full six months from when it was announced by the Prime Minister last week. I hope that Ministers took seriously the warning of my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Torney), who represents a very moderate union which is being driven to desperation by the way in which the freeze is operating against its members.
      The Government have shown that they cannot control prices and will not try to control those prices which determine at

      375
      least 30 per cent. of the cost of living for ordinary families.
      The longer that the freeze lasts, the more it will sour the atmosphere. If it lasts until the end of April, the pressure built up will be terrifying. For all these
      reasons, I ask the Committee to support these Amendments.
      Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 266, Noes 303.

      Division No.9.]

      AYES

      [10.59 p.m

      Abse, Leo

      Edwards, William (Merioneth)

      Lipton Marcus

      Albu, Austen

      Ellis, Tom

      Lomas. Kenneth

      Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

      English, Michael

      Loughlin, Charles

      Allen, Scholefield

      Evans, Fred

      Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

      Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

      Ewing, Harry

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

      Ashley, Jack

      Faulds, Andrew

      Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

      Ashton, Joe

      Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

      McBride, Neil

      Atkinson, Norman

      Fisher, Mrs.Doris(B'ham, Ladywood)

      McCartney, Hugh

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

      McElhone, Frank

      Barnes, Michael

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      McGuire. Michael

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Foley, Maurice

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Barnett, Joel (Heywood and Royton)

      Foot, Michael

      Mackie, John

      Baxter, William

      Ford, Ben

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Beaney, Alan

      Forrester, John

      Maclennan, Robert

      Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

      Fraser, John (Norwood)

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

      Bennett, James(Glasgow, Bridgeton)

      Freeson, Reginald

      McNamara, J. Kevin

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Galpern, Sir Myer

      Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

      Bishop, E. S.

      Garrett, W. E

      Marks, Kenneth

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Gilbert, Dr. John

      Marquand, David

      Boardman, H. (Leigh)

      Ginsburg, David (Dewsbury)

      Marsden, F.

      Booth, Albert

      Golding, John

      Marshall, Dr. Edmund

      Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

      Gourlay, Harry

      Mayhew, Christopher

      Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

      Grant, George (Morpeth)

      Meacher, Michael

      Bradley, Tom

      Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

      Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

      Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

      Mendelson, John

      Brown, Robert C. (N'c'tle-u-Tyne, W.)

      Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

      Mikardo, Ian

      Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

      Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

      Millan, Bruce

      Buchan, Norman

      Hamling, William

      Miller, Dr. M. S.

      Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

      Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

      Hardy, Peter

      Milne, Edward

      Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

      Harper, Joseph

      Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen)

      Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Molloy, William

      Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

      Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

      Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

      Cant, R. B.

      Hattersley, Roy

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Carmichael, Neil

      Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

      Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

      Horam, John

      Moyle, Roland

      Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

      Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

      Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Clark, David (Colne Valley)

      Huckfield, Leslie

      Murray, Ronald King

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

      Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

      Oakes, Gordon

      Cohen, Stanley

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Ogden, Eric

      Coleman, Donald

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Concannon, J. D.

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      O'Malley, Brian

      Conlan, Bernard

      Hunter, Adam

      Cram, Bert

      Corbet, Mrs. Freda

      Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

      Orbach, Maurice

      Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

      Janner, Greville

      Orme, Stanley

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Oswald, Thomas

      Cronin, John

      Jeger, Mrs. Lena

      Padley, Walter

      Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Paget, R. T.

      Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

      Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

      Palmer, Arthur

      Dalyell, Tam

      John, Brynmor

      Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

      Darling, Rt. Hn. George

      Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

      Parker, John (Dagenham)

      Davidson, Arthur

      Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

      Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

      Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

      Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

      Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

      Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

      Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

      Perry, Ernest G.

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

      Jones, Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham, S.)

      Prescott, John

      Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove)

      Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

      Price. J. T. (Westhoughton)

      Deakins, Eric

      Judd, Frank

      Price, William (Rugby)

      de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Probert, Arthur

      Delargy, Hugh

      Kelley. Richard

      Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

      Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

      Kerr, Russell

      Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

      Dempsey, James

      Kinnock, Neil

      Rhodes, Geoffrey

      Doig, Peter

      Lamborn, Harry

      Richard, Ivor

      Dormand, J. D.

      Lamond, James

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

      Latham, Arthur

      Roberts, Rt.Hn.Goronwy (Caernarvon)

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Lawson, George

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Brc'n&R'dnor)

      Dunn, James A.

      Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

      Dunnett, Jack

      Leonard, Dick

      Roper, John

      Eadie, Alex

      Lestor, Miss Joan

      Rose, Paul B.

      Edelman, Maurice

      Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

      Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

      Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Rowlands, Ted

      Sandelson, Neville

      Strang, Gavin

      Wellbeloved, James

      Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

      Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

      Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

      Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

      Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

      White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

      Short, Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

      Swain, Thomas

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

      Thomas, Rt.Hn.George (Cardiff, W.)

      Whitlock, William

      Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

      Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

      Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Sillars, James

      Tinn, James

      Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

      Silverman, Julius

      Tomney, Frank

      Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

      Skinner, Dennis

      Torney, Tom

      Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

      Small, William

      Tuck, Raphael

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

      Urwin, T. W.

      Wilson, Rt. Hon. Harold (Huyton)

      Spearing, Nigel

      Varley, Eric G.

      Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Wainwright, Edwin

      Woof, Robert

      Stallard, A. W.

      Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

      Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

      Wallace, George

      Mr. James Hamilton and

      Stoddart, David (Swindon)

      Watkins, David

      Mr. Tom Pendry.

      Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

      Weitzman, David

      NOES

      Adley, Robert

      Dean, Paul

      Hordern, Peter

      Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

      Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

      Hornby, Richard

      Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

      Digby, Simon Wingfield

      Hornsby-Smith.Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

      Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

      Dixon, Piers

      Howe, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

      Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

      Dodds-Parker, Douglas

      Howell, David (Guildford)

      Astor, John

      Drayson, G. B.

      Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

      Atkins, Humphrey

      du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Hunt, John

      Awdry, Daniel

      Dykes, Hugh

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

      Eden, Rt. Hn. Sir John

      Iremonger, T. L.

      Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

      Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

      Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

      Balniel, Rt. Hn. Lord

      Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

      James, David

      Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

      Emery, Peter

      Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

      Batsford, Brian

      Eyre, Reginald

      Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

      Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

      Farr, John

      Jessel, Toby

      Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

      Fell, Anthony

      Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

      Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

      Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

      Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

      Benyon, W.

      Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

      Jopling, Michael

      Berry, Hn. Anthony

      Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

      Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

      Biffen, John

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Kaberry, Sir Donald

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Fortescue, Tim

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine

      Foster, Sir John

      Blaker, Peter

      Fowler, Norman

      Kershaw, Anthony

      Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

      Fox, Marcus

      Kilfedder, James

      Boscawen, Hn. Robert

      Fraser, Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

      Kimball, Marcus

      Bossom, Sir Clive

      Fry, Peter

      King, Evelyn (Dorset S.)

      Bowden, Andrew

      Galbraith, Hn. T. G. D.

      King, Tom (Bridgwater)

      Braine, Sir Bernard

      Gardner, Edward

      Kinsey, J. R.

      Bray, Ronald

      Gibson-Watt, David

      Kirk, Peter

      Brewis, John

      Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

      Kitson, Timothy

      Brinton, Sir Tatton

      Glyn, Dr. Alan

      Knight, Mrs. Jill

      Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

      Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

      Knox, David

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Goodhart, Philip

      Lambton, Lord

      Brougnton, Sir Alfred

      Goodhew, Victor

      Lamont, Norman

      Bruce-Gardyne, J.

      Gorst, John

      Lane, David

      Bryan, Sir Paul

      Gower, Raymond

      Le Marchant, Spencer

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus, N&M)

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Buck, Antony

      Gray, Hamish

      Lloyd, Rt.Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'field)

      Bullus, Sir Eric

      Green, Alan

      Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

      Burden, F. A.

      Grieve, Percy

      Longden, Sir Gilbert

      Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

      Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

      Loveridge, John

      Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray & Nairn)

      Grylls, Michael

      Luce, R. N.

      Carlisle, Mark

      Gummer, J. Selwyn

      McAdden, Sir Stephen

      Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Gurden, Harold

      MacArthur, Ian

      Cary, Sir Robert

      Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

      McCrindle, R. A.

      Channon, Paul

      Hall, John (Wycombe)

      McLaren, Martin

      Chapman, Sydney

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

      Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Macmillan, Rt.Hn.Maurice (Farnham)

      Chichester-Clark, R.

      Hannam, John (Exeter)

      McNair-Wilson, Michael

      Churchill, W. S.

      Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

      McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

      Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

      Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

      Maddan, Martin

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Haselhurst, Alan

      Madel, David

      Cockeram, Eric

      Havers, Sir Michael

      Maginnis, John E.

      Cooke, Robert

      Hawkins, Paul

      Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

      Coombs, Derek

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Marten, Nell

      Cooper, A. E.

      Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Mather, Carol

      Cordle, John

      Hoseltine, Michael

      Maude, Angus

      Corfield, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick

      Hicks, Robert

      Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

      Cormack, Patrick

      Higgins, Terence L.

      Mawby, Ray

      Costain, A. P.

      Hiley, Joseph

      Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

      Critchley, Julian

      Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Crouch, David

      Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

      Mills, Peter (Torrington)

      Crowder, F. P.

      Holland, Philip

      Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

      d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

      Holt, Miss Mary

      Miscampbell, Norman

      d'Avlgdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

      Hooson, Emlyn

      Mitchell, Lt.-Col.C. (Aberdenshire, W)

      378

      379

      Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

      Rees, Peter (Dover)

      Taylor, Frank (Moss side)

      Moate, Roger

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

      Molyneaux, James

      Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

      Tebbit, Norman

      Money, Ernie

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Temple, John M.

      Monks, Mrs. Connie

      Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

      Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

      Monro, Hector

      Ridsdale, Julian

      Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

      Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

      More, Jasper

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

      Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

      Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

      Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

      Tilney, John

      Morrison, Charles

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Trafford, Dr. Anthony

      Mudd, David

      Host, Peter

      Trew, Peter

      Nabarro, Sir Gerald

      Russell, Sir Ronald

      Tugendhat, Christopher

      Neave, Airey

      St. John-Stevas, Norman

      Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin

      Nicholls, Sir Harmar

      Scott, Nicholas

      van Straubenzee, W. R.

      Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

      Scott-Hopkins, James

      Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

      Onslow, Cranley

      Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

      Vickers, Dame Joan

      Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

      Shelton, William (Clapham)

      Walder, David (Clitheroe)

      Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

      Simeons, Charles

      Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

      Osborn, John

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

      Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Wall, Patrick

      Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby)

      Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

      Walters, Dennis

      Page, John (Harrow, W.)

      Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

      Ward, Dame Irene

      Pardoe, John

      Soref, Harold

      Warren, Kenneth

      Parkinson, Cecil

      Speed, Keith

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Peel, John

      Spence, John

      White, Roger (Gravesend)

      Percival, Ian

      Sproat, Iain

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Pike, Miss Mervyn

      Stainton, Keith

      Wilkinson, John

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Pounder, Rafton

      Steel, David

      Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

      Price, David (Eastleigh)

      Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)

      Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

      Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

      Woodnutt, Mark

      Proudfoot, Wilfred

      Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

      Worsley, Marcus

      Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

      Stokes, John

      Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

      Ouennell, Miss J. M.

      Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

      Younger, Hn. George

      Raison, Timothy

      Sutcliffe, John

      Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

      Tapsell, Peter

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

      Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

      Mr. Bernard Weatherill and

      Redmond, Robert

      Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

      Mr. Walter Clegg.

      Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

      Question accordingly negatived.
      It being after Eleven o'clock The CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order this day, to put forthwith the Question necessary for the disposal of the Business to be concluded at this hour.
      Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
      Then The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to report Progress and ask leave to sit again.
      Committee report Progress; to sit again tomorrow.

RACE RELATIONS AND IMMIGRATION
Ordered,
That a Select Committee be appointed to review policies, but not individual cases, in relation to—

(a) the operation of the Race Relations Act 1968 with particular reference to the work of the Race Relations Board and the Community Relations Commission; and

(b) the admission into the United Kingdom of Commonwealth citizens and foreign nationals for settlement;

and the Committee was nominated of Mr. Guy Barnett, Mr. Sydney Bidwell, Mr. Arthur Bottomley, Mr. Sydney Chapman, Mr. Deedes, Mr. Norman Fowler, Mr. Barney Hayhoe, Mr.
380
J. R. Kinsey, Sir George Sinclair, Mr. Tom Torney, Mr. John Wilkinson, and Mr. William Wilson.
Ordered,
That the Committee have power to appoint persons with expert knowledge for the purpose of particular enquiries, either to supply information which is not readily available or to elucidate matters of complexity within the Committee's order of reference.
Ordered,
That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records; to sit notwithstanding any Adjournment of the House; to adjourn from place to place; to admit strangers during the examination of witnesses unless they otherwise order; and to report Minutes of Evidence from time to time.
Ordered,
That the Committee have power to report from time to time.
Ordered,
That Four be the Quorum of the Committee.
Ordered,
That the Committee have power to appoint Sub-Committees and to refer to such Sub-Committees any of the matters referred to the Committee.
Ordered,
That every such Sub-Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records; to sit notwithstanding any Adjournment of the House; to adjourn from place to place; to

381
report to the Committee from time to time; and to admit strangers during the examination of witnesses unless they otherwise order.
Ordered,
That the Committee have power to report from time to time the Minutes of Evidence taken before such Sub-Committees.
Ordered,
That Three be the Quorum of every such Sub-Committee.—[Mr. Kenneth Clarke.]

RACE RELATIONS AND IMMIGRATION
  ADJOURNMENT
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Kenneth Clarke.]

MATERNITY SERVICES (LISKEARD)
11.14 p.m.
Mr. Robert Hicks: I am grateful for this opportunity to draw to the attention of the House a subject which has been of considerable concern, irritation and frustration locally, namely the provision of maternity facilities in the Liskeard area of my constituency. It would be helpful if I briefly described the background to this problem and the events that have led to my raising this subject tonight.
Until 16th September, 1968, maternity services were provided at the Trebarras Nursing Home, Liskeard. The home was closed initially on a temporary basis on the ground that staffing was causing difficulties. In addition, it was generally agreed that the buildings were not suitable. Indeed, at the end of 1969 the South-West Regional Hospital Board consulted a number of interested bodies and persons in the area so that it might be aware of local opinion. This confirmed that there was little enthusiasm for the reopening of Trebarras.
The Minister made public his announcement that Trebarras should be permanently closed on 3rd August, 1971, in answer to a Parliamentary Question which I had put to him. During the period late 1969 to early 1970 that the South-West Regional Hospital Board was taking its soundings, it would be true to say that the board was left in no doubt by those authorities and bodies that it consulted that some form of alternative improved maternity facilities should be provided in Liskeard. In particular, there was the suggestion that a three to four-bed short-
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stay delivery unit should be established either within or as an extension to the local general practitioner Passmore Edwards Hospital in Liskeard. It is this latter proposal on which I wish to concentrate my remarks.
I was elected the Member for Bodmin in June, 1970, and this was one of the first major constituency problems to which my attention was drawn. The secretary of the South-West Regional Hospital Board wrote to me on 20th July, 1970, and stated quite categorically:
"We"
—that is, the board—
"would welcome an arrangement of this nature"
—namely, the short-stay extension project—
"but, as you will understand, this involves a major change of services about which our first step must be to consult the Department of Health and Social Security."
In other words, the ball was passed back into my hon. Friend's court.
During the latter half of 1970 I received representations from the Liskeard Borough Council, the Liskeard Rural District Council, the Looe Urban District Council, the county councillor for Liskeard and the secretary of the Liskeard Hospitals Medical Staff Committee as well as from many private individuals informing me that they felt that some provision should be made at the Passmore Edwards Hospital and requesting that I continue to press the Department for a favourable decision. The Minister will be aware of those representations since he will recall that they were the subject of much correspondence between us and we talked about the matter informally.
On 7th May, 1971, my hon. Friend wrote to me indicating some of the problems which he believed would be inherent in any short-stay extension project at Passmore Edwards, and on 3rd August, when he confirmed the permanent closure of Trebarras, he informed me in answer to my supplementary question on that occasion that the three to four-bed short-stay maternity unit was not practicable because of staffing and the low number of projected deliveries per week. In a letter to me dated 7th September, 1971, the Minister elaborated on those details.
Needless to say, my hon. Friend's announcement was received with genuine disappointment in the Liskeard area.

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Many people approached me requesting that I make further inquiries to ascertain whether I could persuade my hon. Friend to change his mind. In addition, the Cornwall County Council protested strongly at the decision and agreed to investigate further the possibility of providing staff either on a joint basis with the regional hospital board or on a secondment basis, in the hope that the problem of staffing could be overcome.
I asked my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State a series of questions for Written Answer last December in order to obtain information and discover whether some variant scheme on a permanent footing might be feasible. Meanwhile the numerous branches of the women's institutes in the Liskeard—Looe areas organised a petition. In January a list of more than 1,500 names in support of the petition was handed to me urging that a birth unit be reinstated as an addition to the Passmore Edwards hospital.
It is because of those further representations and my own inquiries that I make the sincere request to the Minister to revise his decision, or at least to take another look at it. I make the submission on the following bases. The Liskeard—Looe population catchment area contains between 25,000 and 30,000 people. It is a growing area. It is expected that by 1981 the population of that catchment area will amount to almost 40,000. An increasing proportion will be young married couples.
On an earlier occasion the Minister stated that such a unit would serve only two to three deliveries per week. That depends upon the definition chosen for the Liskeard-Looe catchment area. It may well be that in its narrowest sense it would serve only two to three deliveries a week. But what of those villages which were formerly within the old Trebarras nursing home catchment area but which, upon reorganisation, have been placed in adjacent catchment areas?
There is also the question of staffing. I acknowledge the problems and I do not underestimate them. I have discussed them at length with the clerk of the Cornwall County Council. But surely it should be possible to reach a sensible and satisfactory arrangement between the hospital board and the local authority over the terms and the structural details of
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their employment. The equivalent of three full-time midwives is required. Liskeard is located within the South-West Development Area and is characterised by an above-average level of unemployment. Has a genuine effort been made either to employ or to train married women who are already resident in the area so that they can take up these positions?
The site at the Passmore Edwards hospital is certainly large enough to accommodate an annexe. It would have an administrative advantage in that it could be included within the existing hospital both from the point of view of staffing and the provision of essential services. The unit would serve a large rural area which at present is almost devoid of public transport and under present arrangements patients and relatives have to travel significant distances, often by narrow roads from remote parts in unpleasant weather conditions. Time as well as money is a relevant consideration.
Liskeard is a natural focal point, surrounded as it is by the rural hinterland. At present expectant mothers are asked to travel to Launceston which is 18 miles away, Plymouth 20 miles away, Tavistock 18 miles away and St. Austell 20 miles away.
My final point concerns the question of costs. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary has told me that the capital cost based on January. 1972. figures would be about £100,000, comprising £40,000 for building and engineering for the three-four bed unit, £40,000 for the buildings and so on for ante-natal services, and £20,000 to cover the cost of fees and other equipment. In addition, he informed me that the annual running costs would be about £15,000.
In coming to his decision my hon. Friend placed much emphasis on those costs, suggesting that in relation to the probable demand the unit would be uneconomic. This may or may not be the case when the economics of the situation are viewed in isolation. But, important as the economic aspects are, surely there are other considerations, especially those based on social criteria? The purpose of the health and hospital services is to bring medical provision as near as possible to the general public, within the limits

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of reasonable and sensible economic bounds.
I believe that for the reasons I have outlined there is a very strong case for some form of short-stay maternity unit of, say, three beds being established at Liskeard in conjunction with the local Passmore Edwards Hospital. The regional hospital board has acknowledged the case in writing. Local authorities and local people certainly support the concept. Surely, if the will exists a way can be found to overcome the practical difficulties? It is in that spirit that I ask my hon. Friend to re-examine the position.
11.27 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Michael Alison): I must congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin (Mr. Hicks) both on his good fortune in obtaining the debate and on his choice of subject. The care of mothers and babies is vital to any community, and he is right to raise the matter, which affects his own constituency.
I am particularly glad to be given this opportunity of explaining the position of maternity facilities in the Liskeard area, on which my hon. Friend asked several Questions last year, and on which we have exchanged a number of letters. No Member could have done more or expended more energy or zeal on behalf of his constituents' vital interests than my hon. Friend. I congratulate him on that.
First, I must make it clear that responsibility for planning hospital services, including maternity facilities, in the Liskeard area rests firmly with the South-Western Regional Hospital Board, which has the onerous task of deciding how hospital services in its region should be planned and operated. In spite of a little nuance in what my hon. Friend said about our joint responsibilities, it is only in very exceptional circumstances that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State would expect to intervene.
In this case, however, because of both the requirement for the Secretary of State to approve the closure of the Trebarras Maternity Home and the issues raised by my hon. Friend, my Department looked into the maternity situation in the Liskeard area very carefully and asked the
386
board to reconsider the practicability of providing facilities locally.
I hope my hon. Friend will forgive me for repeating some of what he has said, but I think it would help the House if at this stage I filled in some of the background of the present situation.
Up to four years ago there was a six-bed general practitioner unit, the Trebarras Maternity Home, in Liskeard. This was in a converted house in grounds adjacent to the Passmore Edwards Hospital, which has 20 medical beds for the use of family doctors. Not only was the Trebarras building unsatisfactory for modern maternity treatment but there were considerable difficulties in attracting qualified midwives to staff it, particularly during periods of leave. The regional hospital board found this a constant anxiety and it was for this reason that it was forced to close the unit in September, 1968.
It is important to note that when this maternity home was open, the average number of deliveries over a five-year period was only 2·1 per cent. per week and during the first three quarters of 1968 the average bed occupancy was only 40·5 per cent. The decision to close the home was taken because of the difficulty of providing qualified staff, but the under-use of the home over a long period cannot be ignored.
The board, however, fully appreciated that the distance from other maternity units at Launceston, Tavistock, St. Austell and Plymouth would mean a long journey for mothers, in some cases up to 20 miles, and considerable inconvenience for relatives wishing to visit them. The board, therefore, examined carefully a proposal to establish a new short-stay delivery unit attached to the Passmore Edwards Hospital. It was hoped that the main problem of finding qualified staff might be solved by using local authority domiciliary midwives, who could perhaps take their patients to the unit and deliver the babies there. The House will appreciate that my right hon. Friend before approving such a plan would need to be assured that this scheme could work without any risk of mothers being left unattended by qualified staff either in their own homes or at the delivery unit.
Further examination of the proposals indicated that the scheme was totally

387
impracticable. Cornwall County Council has told the regional hospital board that it could not provide midwifery cover from its existing resources and that the additional commitment would demand the recruitment of three extra midwives. The House will remember that the recruitment of midwives is the fundamental problem and neither the county council nor the board felt confident that this could be resolved.
The county council also pointed out that there would be substantial difficulties due to the geography of the scattered rural area, with narrow roads making communications difficult in the holiday period. It thought there might be delays before a midwife working on the district would be able to reach a patient in labour in the Liskeard unit. It seemed, therefore, to the board that there was every likelihood that a scheme of this sort would break down, with the serious risk that a mother and baby might be left unattended at the crucial time. For these reasons, the proposal was rejected by my right hon. Friend who reluctantly agreed to the closure of the home, without replacing the facilities locally.
My hon. Friend has asked in the past about the costs of a short-stay unit of the kind proposed. At the time, the board estimated that the capital cost might be about £100,000, with running costs of about £15,000 a year. These were broad estimates which would, of course, need to be refined if it were decided to provide such a small unit. But even if considerable reduction in the estimates would be achieved and ambulance and other costs set against them, the provision of such a unit would clearly be uneconomic for only two or three deliveries a week.
I realise that the population of the Liskeard area may increase over the next few years. My hon. Friend has risked some projections on that. But I cannot accept that the increase would be such as to make a significant difference to the number of confinements which would take place in a maternity unit of this kind. As I said earlier, over a five-year period there were usually only two deliveries a week in the Trebarras home, which was adjacent to the site of the proposed new unit. We must also bear in mind that all cases in which any difficulty could be expected would continue to be booked for the consultant
388
unit at Plymouth, as they were before the Trebarras home closed.
Although I have referred to the economic considerations, I assure the House that it was not these arguments which were dominant in our minds when we concluded that it would be impracticable to set up a new unit. Our chief concern was for the safety of the mothers and the babies who would be patients in such a unit.
As long ago as 1959, the Government of the day accepted the recommendation of the Maternity Services Committee, under the chairmanship of the Earl of Cranbrook, to the effect that so far as more lying-in beds were needed these should, where possible, be general practioner beds for normal cases under the overall supervision of a consultant obstetrician and within, or very close to, maternity or general hospitals where the maternity beds are under the care of obstetric consultants. This has been the policy of successive Ministers of Health and Secretaries of State.
In 1970 a sub-committee of the Standing Maternity and Midwifery Advisory Committee, under the distinguished chairmanship of Sir John Peel, went further than this in recommending that small isolated obstetric units should eventually be entirely replaced by larger combined consultant and general practitioner units in general hospitals and meanwhile should be closely linked with the consultant unit. But these recommendations are still being studied, and my right hon. Friend is not yet ready to say whether he accepts these latter recommendations in full.
The House will know that medical opinion on the place of delivery is by no means unanimous. But I think all would agree that no new isolated maternity unit should be established unless it can be shown with certainty that it would be properly staffed with fully qualified people. This is the crux of the issue. Neither the Cornwall County Council nor the South-Western Regional Hospital Board has been able to produce a plan which gives any assurance that this could be done. I regret that I cannot see any prospect in present circumstances of establishing hospital maternity facilities in the Liskeard area.
I know that the question of dealing with emergencies has been raised as a

389
reason for providing a unit in the Liskeard area. But here again, in the interest of the safety of mother and baby—the key factor, which deeply concerns my hon. Friend—it must be remembered that cases likely to cause difficulty ought to be booked for the consultant unit in the first place, and, in the event of sudden emergency at home, it is more appropriate to rely on the services of the flying squad and subsequent admission to the consultant unit with full facilities than to admit to an isolated general practitioner unit without these facilities.
The situation, therefore, is that mothers have their babies at home, or, according to considerations of medical need, the relative geographical location of their homes, transport arrangements and the preferences of the individual mother and her doctor, are admitted to either the consultant unit at Plymouth or to the general practitioner beds in Devonport, Launceston, Tavistock or St. Austell. These arrangements have been in operation since the Trebarras Maternity Home was closed in September, 1968, and, as far as the regional hospital board is aware, have worked satisfactorily.
390
I fully understand that mothers may dislike the need to travel up to 20 miles to have their babies, and that this also causes husbands and relatives visiting them considerable inconvenience, to say the least. But I am sure that this is better than setting up a system with an inherent staffing weakness, thereby risking its breaking down, with the inevitable possibility of real tragedy as a result.
I think that people who live in rural areas, and enjoy the pleasure and peacefulness of the country and the absence of the pressures of urban living, accept the need to travel to centres of population for special amenities and important occasions.
The birth of a child to a family is one of the most important occasions in their lives. It may be in general that people are prepared to travel to where safe facilities can be provided rather than risk any harm coming to either mother or child
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-one minutes to Twelve o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Portsmouth.
The Earl of Swinton—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his grandfather.

THE BAHAMAS AND GRENADA: INDEPENDENCE PROPOSAL
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made towards recognising the independence of the Bahamas and Grenada.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, a General Election was held in the Bahamas in September when early independence was the main issue. It resulted in a substantial victory for Mr. Pindling's Progressive Liberal Party. At the request of the Bahamas Government, it has been agreed to hold a constitutional conference in London in December. It is expected that the Bahamas will become independent in July, 1973. As regards Grenada, it has been agreed that a constitutional conference should be held in early May, 1973, to review the provisions of a possible independence Constitution.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that full reply, and welcoming the rights of these people to self-determination, may I ask whether the Government have taken into consideration their difficulties and their economic validity? While Bahamas may be safer because of her American associations with tourism and as an anchorage for tankers, is not the case of Grenada very difficult because of the deterioration of plantation economy? Is it not desirable now that the Government should call a conference, perhaps through the Commonwealth Secretariat, to consider
590
co-ordination of all these small islands, possibly in a confederation?
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, it has of course been the policy, and is the policy, of Her Majesty's Government to consider sympathetically requests for independence from dependent territories provided that they have local support. I know that the problem to which the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, refers is a complicated one and I can assure him that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has fully in mind the difficulties which the noble Lord has mentioned.
LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH: My Lords, is there any way in which Her Majesty's Government can warn the Pindling Government of the Bahamas of the irreparable harm being done to the economic future of that country by their anti-white actions which are ruining the off-shore business and driving the tourist trade away? Could Her Majesty's Government let the Bahamas Government know that those of us whose families have done quite a lot to help build up their country are more than sad to see them cut off their nose to spite their face?
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, while I understand the view which the noble Lord, Lord Clifford, has put forward I really think that that goes somewhat further than the original Question on the Order Paper, which referred to the possibility of independence for these countries.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, can the noble Earl say whether the Government have made any proposals to the Bahamas Government in respect of the defence of that country after they have become independent?
EARL FERRERS: Of course, my Lords, when they are independent they will be responsible for their own defence in the same way as all other independent countries are, subject to the normal safeguards which Commonwealth countries have.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for his response, and perhaps trespassing on the actual nature of the Question, may I ask whether the Government would pay very great consideration to the desirability in the

591
Caribbean of bringing about some coordination between these nations—in the case of the Bahamas large, but in the case of Grenada small—which are becoming independent? The situation is now becoming complicated by Nevis and Anguilla in the St. Kitts group. Is it not desirable that there should be an early conference to try to bring about co-ordination and economic validity?
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, I appreciate the point which the noble Lord has mentioned and I will certainly ensure that his observations are drawn to the attention of my right hoonurable friend.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, while wishing to support my noble friend in the importance that he lays on getting these small islands joined together, may I ask whether the noble Earl will not confirm that the real difficulty in this is that all these islands produce much the same sort of commodities and therefore in joining together they do not in fact complement each other but only add to each other's problems? If they are to be joined together—and it is important that they should be so—would he not agree that we should try to get some areas whose products are different, such as Canada which has a cold climate, to join them and strengthen them? In that way they are far more likely to be able to stand independent than they are if left purely on their own.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, there have in the past been many views expressed of a similar nature to the view that the noble Viscount, Lord St. Davids, has just expressed. There have been efforts to try to get some co-ordination in this area. Of course, the only possibility of real success is if the people involved wish to co-operate and, for want of a better word, to amalgamate in such an organisation. If this desire is not forthcoming, then it is difficult for Her Majesty's Government to do something specific on the lines the noble Viscount has suggested.

EUROPEAN COMMUNITY FUNDS: ESTABLISHMENT DATES
2.41 p.m.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the communiqué of the meeting of the Heads of State or of Government of countries of the enlarged Community means that the date of the implementation of resolutions of the Ministers of the Community of March 26, 1972, concerning the European Regional Fund has been postponed from October 1, 1972 to December 31, 1972, and that of European Monetary Co-operation Fund from June 30, 1972 to April 1, 1973, and what is the reason for this postponement.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN): My Lords, no postponement is involved in either case. As regards the European Monetary Co-operation Fund, until the decision was taken at the Summit Conference to institute it before April 1, 1973, no commitment existed to establish such a Fund by any given date. As regards the European Regional Development Fund, the Community of Six had previously resolved to take by October 1, 1972, certain decisions of principle relating to the establishment of a regional Development Fund or some alternative system for regional development using the appropriate Community resources. That proposal has now, in our view, been overtaken by the quite separate Summit decision to establish a Regional Development Fund for the Enlarged Community before December 31, 1973.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I point out that it is obvious that there has been a postponement, because the Ministers had previously agreed on exactly the same thing that the Summit Conference agreed on—the postponed date.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I think there is a misunderstanding here. As I have said, there was never a firm

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date for the implementation of the resolutions. As the noble Lord is well aware, the resolution of March 21, 1972, laid down provisions for consideration by the Council of Ministers. Implementation would not necessarily have followed immediately even if those had been agreed upon.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, does the Minister not realise that he is mistaken? Obviously, the resolution of March, 1972, did exactly the same thing as the Summit Conference, but with earlier dates than those in the Summit Conference resolution?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, we really cannot argue in detail about this matter. I shall be happy to send the noble Lord the relevant extracts from the resolution of March 21, 1972.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, did I understand the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, to say that there was no firm date for the implementation of the regional development arrangement? If that is so, why the euphoria on the part of the Prime Minister about the advantage of the decision that was taken?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, regional development funds already existed in the Community of the Six, and some existing funds of the Community make payments of a regional nature on which we shall be drawing from January 1, 1973.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, will the Government do their utmost to see that the two deadlines in regard to the Regional Fund and the Monetary Fund in 1973 are in fact met?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, obviously this will be one of our cardinal aims.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, is it not true that the veto applies to any of these proposals by the British Government, in that both the Germans and the French are opposed to the extension of the regional funds to the degree that the British want?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, all these are matters which will have to be discussed, once the analysis that the Commission has been asked to do of the
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problems of regions in the enlarged Community comes before Ministers.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, does the Minister not realise that his uncertainty about these problems casts a very dark shadow indeed on the policy of Her Majesty's Government?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, there is always uncertainty about the future. We have to reach agreement on what is best for the Community as a whole. But the commitments in the Summit Conference are perfectly clear: that the Regional Development Fund will have regard not only to agricultural problems but to industrial problems as well.

THE BUDGET AND BORROWING REQUIREMENTS
2.46 p.m.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the expected deficit in:—

(a) the conventional Budget 1972–73;

(b) the new form economic overall Budget including the requirements of the public sector corporations.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE): My Lords, the latest published figures can be found in a convenient form in Tables 5 and 11 of this year's Financial Statement and Budget Report. It was expected that, after the changes announced in the Budget, the total public sector borrowing requirement will be £3,358 million, and that the total borrowing by the National Loans Fund will amount to £2,667 million.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, does the noble Earl realise that this means a turn round of almost £4,000 million in the public finances and that even if one does not accept the monetarist interpretation of economics, as Mr. Powell does, this is a very serious matter indeed?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I think my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has made clear by his recent actions the importance which he attaches to ensuring that the

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borrowing requirement which emerges in the second half of the financial year does not lead to undue expansion in the reserve base of the banks, and that is why he judged it appropriate to call for special deposits last week.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, may I ask a question which seems to have a bearing on the conventional Budget for next year? Has he seen the report in the Press this morning that the expected deficit on the balance of payments by the end of next year will be over £400 million?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I agree that what the noble Lord has said would have a bearing on next year's Budget, but I think it is going rather wide of the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Balogh. I must confess that I have not seen that particular report.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, does not the noble Earl realise that his right honourable friend's efforts have resulted in a 20 per cent. increase in the monetary circulation as measured by M3—and the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, will probably be the only noble Lord who will understand that—and that an increase of 20 per cent. in M3 is not what the noble Earl could possibly describe as a satisfactory rate of increase.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am going rather cautiously where M3 is concerned, but it is my understanding, which I know the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, will bear out, that the rate of increase in M3 is now quite sharply de-accelerating.
LORD ROBBINS: My Lords, is it possible for the noble Earl to make some attempt slightly to quantify his use of the term "undue expansion"?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I would, of course, wish to respond as always to any question put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, but I think that on this occasion I will do my best to resist the temptation.

HOVERCRAFT ACCIDENT REPORT
2.50 p.m.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend to publish the finding of the Inquiry into the recent SRN 6 hovercraft accident.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, the report of the Inquiry into the casualty on March 4, 1972, involving an SRN 6 hovercraft is now in the final stages of preparation. The report, which has involved a great deal of research, is confidential, but a statement on its findings will be made before the Christmas Recess.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his reply. He would agree, I am sure, that in the interests of the industry it is vital to restore any lack of confidence that may exist in any users of hovercraft. Could my noble friend say what steps, if any, have been taken to modify the craft? Secondly, what limits of service have been imposed in certain weather conditions?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot anwer those questions without notice and, if I may say so, it is probably better to await the statement which is to be made.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, is not the real trouble that a hovercraft is neither flesh, fowl, nor good red herring and thus falls rather between two stools—thoroughly to mix metaphors. If the craft was a sea-going vessel there would be no need to publish any such report, but if it was an aircraft it would be statutory and necessary to do so. In view of the fact that the hovercraft industry is very much younger than that of navigation on the sea, would it not be better if we treated it, so far as publication of reports go, in the same way in which we deal with aircraft so that we can get a great deal more experience and confidence in this new method of travel.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I note what the noble Lord says, but even so far as aircraft are concerned an accident investigation report is only

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required to be published "unless there are other reasons to the contrary", so in both cases there is not an absolute obligation to publish.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, can my noble friend estimate how soon the statement will be made?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I have said that I hope it will be made before Christmas, but I am afraid that I cannot be more accurate than that.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, in view of the widespread interest in this incident, and accepting that the Government have no obligation to publish the accident report, why, none the less, is it not going to be published? And who has prepared it?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, the report is made by an officer appointed for that purpose. In general, the reason for not publishing reports is to give the officer the greatest possible freedom in expressing views which he might be inhibited from expressing if he knew that the report was going to be published. As I said, in this case there have been special factors, including the need to obtain certain important scientific and technical information.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether this is yet another example of the more open government we were promised by the Conservatives?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, in many cases we follow the normal procedure and we make improvements where possible.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I have been asked by my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor to inform your Lordships that he is sitting judicially this week and cannot, therefore, be in his place on the Woolsack until after 4 o'clock. He is sorry that he could not inform the House in advance of the reason for his absence this week as his judicial obligations did not arise until last Friday.

THE QUEEN AND PRINCE PHILIP: ANNIVERSARY DINNER BY PRIVY COUNSELLORS
2.55p.m.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, there are two matters that I would mention to your Lordships. A number of Members of your Lordships' House will know that Her Majesty the Queen and Prince Philip have accepted an invitation to dine with members of the Privy Council on Tuesday, November 21, to celebrate the occasion of their 25th Wedding Anniversary. The dinner will take place in the Royal Gallery and the arrangements for this may I fear cause some inconvenience to your Lordships. I can assure your Lordships that everything possible will be done to keep that inconvenience to an absolute minimum. It has also been agreed, through the usual channels, that the House should rise on that day at about 5 o'clock.

THE LORD MAYOR OF LONDON
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, may I also draw your Lordships' attention to a rather remarkable, and indeed unique, event which has just taken place? I believe that it was in 1191 that the first Mayor of London took office and it was about a century later that the first Lord Mayor of London took office. I believe that this is the first time in the succeeding 700 years or so that the Lord Mayor of London has, at the same time, happened to be a Member of your Lordships' House. Your Lordships may wish to take notice of this rather remarkable historical event and, with your agreement, perhaps I may be allowed to write to the Lord Mayor to express our good wishes to him in the tenure of his office.
May I also take this opportunity to congratulate the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition on the fact that on this occasion this joint office, as it were, is being held by a member of his Party. I hope that when, in another 700 years or so, the next Lord Mayor who is a Peer is appointed he will happen to be a Member of this side of your Lordships' House.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I am sure that the House is in full agreement with the noble Earl. We certainly

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appreciate that this is a unique event. I am not expert enough historically to know whether the relations between your Lordships' House and the City of London have always been of the best; I suspect that there were times when they were not. But in these more liberal days, when a member of the Labour Party can be a Lord Mayor of London, things are rather easier. I greatly appreciate the noble Earl's congratulations. In this election we have once again a demonstration of the great versatility of Members of your Lordships' House, particularly on this side. I certainly hope that the House will encourage the noble Earl to write such a letter, because I know that the noble Lord, Lord Mais, is very proud of his membership of your Lordships' House. He had a very distinguished record in building mulberry harbours and so on during the war, and I can only hope that in another 700 years' time the noble Earl's side of the House will have the same good fortune as we on this side have this year.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, on behalf of all my noble friends on these Benches I should like to associate myself with the proposal put forward by the noble Earl the Leader of the House. I am sure that nobody could be more liberal in his outlook than the present Lord Mayor of London.

DELEGATED LEGISLATION
2.58 p.m.
EARL JELLICOE EARL JELLICOE rose to move, That it is desirable that a Joint Committee of both Houses be appointed to inquire into the procedures and practice by which the control of each House over delegated legislation is exercised and to report how they might be improved.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. Your Lordships may have seen from paragraph 4 of the very valuable Report of the Joint Select Committee on Delegated Legislation which sat last Session under the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Brooke of Cumnor, that the Committee felt that there were four main fields of study to which they should address themselves in this highly
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complex area. It is my understanding now (and I congratulate them on this, because it is rather a remarkable achievement) that they have completed three of these fields of study but in the course of the last Session they were not able to report on the fourth field, which would cover such matters as the classification and analysis of the character of Statutory Instruments. There is a great deal of very dense Parliamentary undergrowth in this particular field, and it is my belief that it would be extremely important, not only for this House but for Parliament as a whole, that they should report on this fourth area which they wish to study. The Joint Committee are anxious to resume their work as soon as possible and the Motion I am moving to-day is the first step towards reappointing that Committee. I beg to move.
Moved, That it is desirable that a Joint Committee of both Houses be appointed to inquire into the procedures and practice by which the control of each House over delegated legislation is exercised and to report how they might be improved.—(Earl Jellicoe.)
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, will be tired of hearing words of admiration for his work and that of his Committee; and why they should want to continue with such an onerous task it would be difficult to understand were it not for the great sense of public duty that the members of this Committee obviously have. They are about to embark on what I think is a most extraordinarily difficult field, but it is one of such importance that, sooner or later, we hope it will be possible to arrive at a classification of different Orders, if only because it has some bearing on proceedings in your Lordships' House of the kind we had last week.
I hope that the Committee will be encouraged to take their time on this matter. I am impressed by the amount of work they have got through, aided no doubt by the evidence given by the noble Earl and myself. However, I do not think we did much more than state some of the problems, and I hope, therefore, that this time they will be allowed to do a really thorough study. If they cannot conclude their consideration on the first

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occasion they should not hesitate to produce interim reports, which could be discussed, and then continue their consideration; because they at least must now understand the full nature of the problems, which I am bound to say the great majority of us scarcely understand at all.
On Question, Motion agreed to: Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Commons to communicate this Resolution and to desire their concurrence.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES
3.1 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Select Committee on the House of Lords Offices be appointed; and that the Lords following with the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman of Commitees, be named of the Committee:

The Lord Privy Seal (E. Jellicoe),

D. Atholl,

M. Cholmondeley,

Alexander of Tunis,

E. Dundonald,

E. St. Aldwyn,

E. Selkirk,

V. Hood,

V. Massereene and Ferrard,

V. Simon,

L. Aberdare,

L. Amulree,

L. Auckland,

L. Beswick,

L. Beaumont of Whitley,

L. Brooke of Cumnor,

B. Brooke of Ystradfellte,

L. Byers,

L. Champion,

L. Clifford of Chudleigh,

L. Diamond,

B. Emmet of Amberley,

L. Fiske,

L. Gardiner,

B. Gaitskell,

L. Granville of Eye,

L. Henderson,

L. Hilton of Upton,

L. Hunt,

B. Hylton-Foster,

L. Ironside,

B. Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe,

L. Lucas of Chilworth,

L. Maybray-King,

L. Mowbray and Stourton,

L. Nugent of Guildford,

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L. O'Hagan,

L. Orr-Ewing,

B. Phillips,

L. Platt,

L. Popplewell,

Ly. Ruthven of Freeland,

B. Seear,

Ly. Sempill,

L. Shackleton,

L. Shepherd,

L. Strabolgi,

L. Strang,

L. Trefgarne,

L. Wells-Pestell,

L. Wilberforce;

That the Committee have leave to report from time to time.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, forgive my curiosity, but can the noble Earl, the Lord Chairman of Committees, explain to your Lordships' House why more than 50 Members of your Lordships' House are nominated for this Committee? Why so many? It looks like a mass meeting.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: Yes, my Lords; I welcome the noble Lord's question. The main purpose of this Committee is to represent a cross-section of the House, of all Parties, the Front Benches and the Back Benches, and of course the Independents, and for that reason it has to be a large Committee. I would remind the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, that most of the work of this Committee is done by a few very hard working sub-committees, the Administration sub-committee, the Library sub-committee, the Refreshment Department sub-committee, and the Works of Art sub-committee. So I think he can be satisfied that in spite of the size of the Committee it does not for that reason lose the necessary efficiency.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I wonder whether I could ask the noble Earl a question. My recollection is that when we considered the nature of these special committees the Aberdare Working Party, I think it was, set up by the Leader, recommended a number of changes, including that of making a number of committees smaller, but deliberately came to the view that there were special reasons why this Committee should be large. This matter was discussed and agreed upon in your Lordships' House. That is my recollection; I am not sure whether it is correct.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, the noble Lord, the Leader of the Opposition, is entirely correct; there was no recommendation that this Committee should be reduced in size.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE
3.4 p.m.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider any proposals for alterations in the procedure of this House which may arise from time to time, and whether the Standing Orders do or do not require to be altered to effect such alterations; and that the Lords following with the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:—

The Lord Privy Seal (E. Jellicoe),

E. St. Aldwyn,

E. Perth,

E. Selkirk,

V. Dilhorne,

V. Hood,

L. Aberdare,

L. Beswick,

L. Blyton,

L. Brooke of Cumnor,

L. Byers,

L. Conesford,

L. Denham,

L. Diamond,

B. Gaitskell,

L. Gardiner,

L. Greenwood of Rossendale,

L. Henley,

L. Maybray-King,

L. Molson,

L. Shackleton,

L. Shepherd,

L. Strang,

L. Tanlaw;

That the Committee have leave to report from time to time.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL THE EARL OF LISTOWEL rose to move, That the Eighth Report from the Select Committee, made on the 18th of October in the last Session of Parliament, be agreed to.
The Committee's Report was as follows:
COMMITTEE OF SELECTION
1. The Committee have considered the present machinery for selecting and proposing to the House the membership of Select Committees. This consists at present mainly of consultation through the usual channels. The Committee consider that there would be advantage in reconstituting the Committee of Selection (whose functions are at present limited to the selection of the members of Select Committees in the field of Private Legislation) and in widening its terms of reference so as to bring within its purview the membership of all Select Committees, except those otherwise provided for and except the Committee of Selection itself. Such a step would formalise and extend the present consultations without in any way excluding the usual channels and would offer a wider basis for consultation than exists at present.
2. The Procedure Committee accordingly recommend:—
(1) That a new Standing Order be proposed to the House in place of S.O. 61 ("Notice to be given of Lords proposed to serve on Select Committees"), entrusting the Committee of Selection with the responsibility of proposing to the House the size and membership (including, if they think fit, the Chairmanship) of all Select Committees of the House except those otherwise provided for and the Committee of Selection itself.
(2) That the Committee of Selection be reconstituted with the following membership:—
The Lord Chairman;
The Leaders and Whips of the political Parties (who might in practice serve as alternates to one another);
The "Coordinator" of the Cross Benches;
Four other Back Benchers, one from each Party and one from the Cross Benches.
(3) That the members of the reconstituted Committee be proposed at the beginning of each Session (except for next Session—see paragraph 3 below) to the House by the Leader of the House after consultation through the "usual channels" and with the "Coordinator" of the Cross Benches.
(4) That the members be subject to the general rule governing retirement by rotation (Companion, page 179) under which certain categories of member are exempt and all others retire by rotation.
(5) That within the new responsibility defined at (1) above, discretion be given to the Lord Chairman to act on behalf of the Committee (without calling the Committee together) in appropriate cases—e.g. in the case of casual vacancies occuring in the membership of Select Committees.
(6) That a Motion to give effect to the recommendations of the Committee of Selection should constitute the Report from the Committee to the House. Notice should

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be given of any such Motion in the Order Paper.
(7) That the present functions and practice of the Committee of Selection in relation to Private Legislation be left unchanged.
3. In presenting this Report, the Committee recommend that the House should not be invited to consider the necessary new Standing Order to give effect to their recommendations until the new Session. They do not think it appropriate to ask the House to consider it in the few days remaining of the present Session. Those Select Committees which need to be set up at the beginning of the new Session—for example, Sessional Committees and those ad hoc Committees which may need to be reappointed—will be proposed to the House without delay under the existing arrangements, i.e. after consultation through the usual channels. If the Committee's recommendations are approved by the House, they will come into force only when the House has approved the Standing Order to give effect to them.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be agreed to.
Moved, That the Report be agreed to.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PROTECTION OF AIRCRAFT BILL [H.L.]
3.5 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time. This Bill is brief and, I believe, will command a wide measure of support. It is a further step in the development of an effective international legal framework to deal with the violence which afflicts the peaceful operation of civil aviation at the present time, and of which we have a further example in America this last weekend. Your Lordships will appreciate that this Bill is not itself concerned with hijacking but with the equally serious problem of sabotage. As for last weekend's outrage in America and the equally horrifying hijacking of the Lufthansa jet from Beirut, these incidents have aroused the greatest concern and revulsion in us all. I am sure I speak for all your Lordships in saying that our sympathies go out to the crews and passengers who have been subjected to the intolerable pressures and dangers which these incidents occasion. Hijacking, however, is dealt with in the Hague Convention, and I shall refer later to this and more particularly to the Government's policy on aviation security.
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The purpose of the Bill is to enable the United Kingdom to give effect to the Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the safety of Civil Aviation which was concluded at a diplomatic conference in Montreal on September 23, 1972. The first objective of the International Civil Aviation Organisation (to which I shall refer as ICAO) as set out in the Chicago Convention of 1944 is to ensure the safe and orderly growth of international civil aviation throughout the world. There had, of course, been isolated acts of violence from the quite early days of commercial aviation; indeed the first record of an aircraft hijacking is in Peru in 1930. But when ICAO was established in 1944, it can never have been envisaged that air transport would have to face, and innocent passengers and crews to endure, the evil and shocking forms of violence for criminal and so-called political ends which we have seen in recent years.
Before explaining the objectives and form of the Bill which is now before the House, I think that in view of recent events in the Middle East, in Germany and elsewhere your Lordships would expect me to say something about the Government's approach to aviation security. It has three main objectives. First, to provide that the necessary organisation is available and that procedures are developed to combat possible acts of violence against our civil aviation and to respond to any incident involving the United Kingdom. Second, to ensure that appropriate and effective security measures are taken at our airports and by our airlines. And thirdly, to support and contribute to international action in the United Nations, ICAO and elsewhere.
The struggle against violence directed at aviation involves many interests and organisations—Government Departments, the Civil Aviation Authority, the police, airlines, airport authorities and especially the pilots, cabin crews and ground staffs who are the most immediately and directly involved of all. It is vital that there should be the closest liaison between all these bodies. It was for this reason that the Government set up the National Aviation Security Committee, on which they are all represented, to advise it and the air transport industry on aviation security. This national committee is in turn complemented by airport security

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committees at all our major airports. These committees have had an important influence on policy—for example, in relation to the decision by the Government last June to meet the costs of searching passengers and baggage and as sponsor for a comprehensive programme of detailed security surveys of our airports. So the organisation is there both to coordinate all the interests involved in the prevention of violence and also to respond to any incident with which we might be faced in the United Kingdom. I hope I shall not be asked to give details about the form the response would take. For obvious reasons, all I can say is that the plans have been made; they are under continued development in the light of experience, and they are kept closely under review.
From the outset the Government have provided our airlines and airport authorities with advice on the threat to their operations and with guidance on the measures which might be taken by airlines and at airports to combat possible hijacking and sabotage attempts and other acts of violence. To do so virtually on a day-to-day basis is part of the close liaison which has been evolved. Our basic approach to actual security measures is influenced by two main considerations. First, the hijacker must be prevented from joining an aircraft, or the saboteur from placing his bomb, or whatever it might be, on board. And secondly, security measures should be related to the threat and should be concentrated on those operations most at risk. Some of these measures, notably the searching of passengers and their baggage, will be familiar to those of your Lordships who are regular travellers. Noble Lords will understand why I do not intend to list all precautions that are taken. I would just say that they vary in intensity as between different airlines and between individual flights—the measures taken on flights to certain destinations are not necessarily taken, for example, on domestic or other short-range services.
However, Government activity is not confined to advice and guidance. The Government have made a tangible and important contribution to the effort to contain violence by meeting the costs of both British and foreign airlines in search-
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ing their passengers and baggage at our airports. This has been widely acknowledged both by the air transport industry in the United Kingdom and overseas. It was originally estimated to amount to about £1 million a year. We are also undertaking comprehensive security surveys of British airports. These are intended to review existing security measures, to consider whether improvements are required, and to recommend the action which might be taken to effect such improvements. All the principal airports have been surveyed, but this is a continuing process requiring constant vigilance.
So much for national action. I now turn to international action and specifically to the legal framework, on which I should like to say something about the main instruments involved so as to put this Bill in perspective. There are three international Conventions and work is proceeding on a fourth. First, there is the Tokyo Convention of 1963 which deals generally with crimes committed on board aircraft, setting out the jurisdiction and duties of States and describing the powers of the aircraft commander in relation to such crimes. In 1963 hijacking did not present the international problem that it does to-day, and was mainly confined to persons fleeing from one country to another generally in order to seek political asylum. The Tokyo Convention therefore was concerned more with the return of the aircraft and its passengers than with the hijacker. The enactment in 1967 of the Tokyo Convention Act enabled the United Kingdom to be among the first to ratify that Convention, which is now in force for 57 countries.
Secondly, there is the Hague Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Seizure of Aircraft, which is concerned with the hijacking of aircraft. Towards the end of the 1960s a sinister new development was the hijacking of aircraft to bring political pressure to bear on States, particularly in the context of the Middle East conflict. It was clear that the brief references to hijacking in the Tokyo Convention were inadequate to deal with this new menace, and there was strong support within ICAO for a convention specifically concerned with hijacking which would provide for the apprehension and punishment of the

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hijacker. This led to the conclusion in December, 1970, of the Hague Convention. It was given effect in the Hijacking Act 1971, under which anyone who commits the offence of hijacking is liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for life. Again the United Kingdom was among the first to ratify the Hague Convention, which has now been ratified by 42 States.
Thirdly, there is the Montreal Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Civil Aviation, concluded in September, 1971, and specially aimed at sabotage and similar acts other than hijacking. It complements the Hague Convention on hijacking and is similar to it in general form. The Hague Convention was concerned only with hijacking, but in 1969 and 1970, following the sabotage of aircraft in flight and attacks against aeroplanes on the ground, work began on the Montreal Convention.
My Lords, before going on to describe the Montreal Convention, I should refer briefly to the fourth instrument, which is the proposed Convention on Joint Action against Acts of Violence to Civil Aviation; or, in simple terms, sanctions. This is related to situations in which States might not have acted in accordance with the Hague and Montreal Conventions. Last September in Washington a subcommittee of the Legal Committee of ICAO prepared a report based on proposals by the United Kingdom delegation for a fact-finding commission to determine whether the conduct of a State constituted a threat to the general safety of aviation and to recommend to the State concerned the steps which might be taken to remedy the situation. This met with substantial support. We then cosponsored, with the United States, Canada and the Netherlands, a proposal for determining the steps to be taken if the State failed to comply with the recommendations. The ICAO Council considered this report on November 1 and decided to convene a special session of the Legal Committee in January 1973 to consider the report of the sub-committee. The Council also decided to convene a diplomatic conference on aviation security in August and September 1973.
The steps that could be taken under the new proposals would include such sanctions as the withdrawal of air ser-
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vices to and from States found to be in default. The need for widespread agreement on such a course is obvious. The impositions of sanctions by only a few countries would be unlikely to hurt the defaulting State or influence its attitudes, while the countries imposing them could themselves suffer disproportionate losses through action taken against them—or indeed through loss of services. Your Lordships will have noted that Her Majesty's Government have been very active in the development of these various legal instruments and have taken early steps to ratify them. In particular the Montreal Convention was put in hand, largely at the instigation of the United Kingdom at the Extraordinary Assembly of the International Civil Aviation Organisation, which was convened in June 1970 especially to consider all these matters affecting the security of civil aviation. It was signed on its conclusion at Montreal by 31 countries including the United Kingdom, and since then there have been another 21 signatories, making a total of 52. It has been ratified by 11 countries, and we know from the initiatives we have taken to encourage States to adopt both the Montreal and Hague Conventions that many other countries are preparing to ratify.
The Montreal Convention will come into effect between ratifying countries 30 days after the tenth ratification has been deposited by a State which was present when it was concluded. The considerable and growing number of States that have signed it suggests that the right balance has been struck between two sometimes conflicting objectives which those who prepared the Convention had before them. These were, to produce a Convention which had enough teeth to be effective to deal with sabotage and the like and, at the same time, one which would attract widespread adherence. What the Convention does, in brief, is to require contracting States to make it an offence for any person to perform an act of violence against a person on board an aircraft in flight which is likely to endanger the safety of that aircraft; or to destroy or damage an aircraft in service, or air navigation facilities, or to place on board an aircraft a device or substance likely to endanger aircraft in flight; or to communicate false information thereby endangering the safety of an aircraft in flight. These offences are to

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be punishable by severe penalties. The Convention provides for arrest, facilitates the extradition of offenders between contracting States, and obliges any contracting State where the offender is found to take jurisdiction to prosecute him if it does not extradite him. We believe the Convention to be an important additional weapon in combating violence. It has been welcomed by all sides of the air transport industry in this country, that is to say by airlines, airport authorities and employees, many of whom have urged us to ratify as soon as possible.
The main purpose then of the Protection of Aircraft Bill now before your Lordships' House is precisely to enable us to ratify the Montreal Convention. Not all the provisions of the Convention need to be reflected in the Bill, since effect can be given to them administratively and no legislation is required to implement them. The Bill is therefore quite short. Nevertheless it does cover two points which were excluded from the Convention, but for which we think provision should be made in our own law. These are, first, offences involving military, customs or police aircraft, and second, the provision of powers to a constable to prevent a person from travelling on an aircraft if the constable has cause to suspect that the person intends to commit an offence under the Bill or under the Hijacking Act 1971.
The Bill contains only ten clauses but I need mention only the first five, which are also the most important. Clause 1 implements the Montreal Convention by making it an offence to destroy or damage an aircraft in service, or to commit on board an aircraft in flight any act of violence likely to endanger its safety in flight, or to place on an aircraft or to conspire to be placed on it any device or substance which is likely to destroy an aircraft or render it unsafe in flight or incapable of flying. It makes no difference to the offence where it is committed or what is the nationality of the offender or the State in which the aircraft is registered. This otherwise all-embracing provision is qualified in the case of offences involving military, customs or police aircraft, which are outside the scope of the Convention and where the extent of our jurisdiction must therefore be less.
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Clause 2 gives effect to the provision in the Convention which requires contracting States to make it an offence to destroy or damage or interfere with the operation of air navigation facilities so as to be likely to endanger the safety of aircraft in flight, or to communicate false information thereby endangering the safety of an aircraft in flight. Under Clause 3 anyone commits an offence if, in the United Kingdom, he induces or assists in the commission of an act outside the United Kingdom which would be an offence under the Bill if it were committed here. Clause 4 provides that for all offences under the Bill other than those involving the communication of information the offender shall be liable to imprisonment for life. The communication of false information which endangers the safety of aircraft in flight, or assisting or inducing the communication of such information, is punishable by imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years.
Clause 5 makes those amendments to the law which are necessary in order to implement the provisions of the Montreal Convention relating to the extradition of offenders between contracting States. It does this by amending the Extradition Act 1870 and the Fugitive Offenders Act 1967 so as to provide that the offences created by the Bill are extraditable offences under the 1870 Act and relevant offences under the 1967 Act. It also provides that where there is no bilateral extradition treaty with a State which is a party to the Convention, an Order in Council may be made under Section 2 of the 1870 Act as though the Convention constituted an extradition treaty with that State. I do not think I need mention the remaining clauses. I will say only that having played a leading part in the making of the Montreal Convention, which we believe will contribute to the safety of international air transport, we are anxious to ratify it as quickly as possible. The passage of the Bill will enable us to ratify, and I therefore commend it to your Lordships.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
3.24 p.m.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, for explaining the purpose of the Bill and the back-

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ground to the problem with which it deals. I appreciate the promptitude with which Her Majesty's Government have laid this legislation—it is so infrequently that I have the opportunity of praising Her Majesty's Government that it is a pity that when I do so Her Majesty's Ministers should direct their attention elsewhere—prior to the ratification of the Montreal Convention. As the noble Lord told us, we have now had the Tokyo Convention and the Hague Convention and we are about to ratify the Montreal Convention, though it is still a fact that we have not yet come to grips with the problems we are discussing. As he said, until we have widespread agreement among countries, until we can get sanctions and until we can put some teeth into this Agreement we are unlikely to see effective steps being taken. It would now seem that the principal hope rests on the Legal Committee of the ICAO, and again I appreciate what Her Majesty's Government have done in facilitating those discussions.
I do not wish to be misunderstood, and certainly I do not intend to criticise unfairly Her Majesty's Government in anything I say. Indeed, having listened to the noble Lord and having had the privilege this morning of listening to his right honourable friend Mr. Heseltine in another forum, I wish to pay tribute to the initiatives which the Government, through their Ministers and officials, have taken. Nevertheless, although I recognise that much is being done, it is necessary to urge to-day that still more be done. August, 1973, for the meeting of the Legal Committee seems to be too leisurely an approach to a problem which really is one of great urgency.
In a sense I have an interest to declare as, like the noble Lord, Lord Harvey of Prestbury, whom I see in his place opposite, I am Vice-President of BALPA; but if I have a special interest, looking at it from the pilots' point of view, it is identical with the public interest, and I wish to emphasise the need for urgency from the pilots' stand point. So far the pilots of these hijacked aircraft have always contrived to bring the aircraft down safely. They have displayed an almost incredible standard of professional efficiency. But I say seriously, and without exaggeration, that if this lawlessness continues, a major tragedy is inevitable. I do not mean by
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this a tragedy as the result of deliberate sabotage—for example, a bomb exploding or a grenade being thrown in flight—but because these pirates are demanding that pilots operate in a quite intolerable environment.
Two factors are essential for the safe operation of an aircraft. First, the pilot needs to prepare his flight carefully, thoroughly and completely; yet we see flights ordered by these pirates without any possibility of securing or assessing the elementary pre-flight information. The second cardinal principle which is breached is that of aircraft command. Safety demands that there shall be no equivocation and no doubt at all as to who is in authority; the command of the aircraft should be absolutely unchallenged. Yet in these piratical acts we see that decisions affecting the serviceability of aircraft, the fuel state, landing aids, weather conditions and suitability of the runway at the proposed destination are all imposed on the legal commander of the aircraft by the pirates concerned. One day there will be an argument as to whether the outboard engine is or is not unserviceable. The pilot will require to make one decision and the hijacker will endeavour to impose on him another, and in a condition of that kind there will be a tragedy.
May I add one more word about the pilots? As I said, so far their supreme professional skill has averted catastrophe, but let us not be misled by the pictures of some of these men when they emerge from an incident of this kind. Sometimes I have seen on television an apparently unperturbed captain relating his experiences and one would imagine that there had been no effect upon him. Yet it is quite impossible for a man, such as the Southern Airlines pilot flying for 21 hours at the direction of these people, to emerge from that kind of experience without some scar. It is certain that there are individuals who have gone through this experience who have suffered and who will suffer for the remainder of their lives as a result of the strain that has been put upon them. I myself can think of one case where, apparently, the premature retirement of the captain was caused by the experience which he had undergone. There is a human tragedy, but, apart from the individual—
BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEY: My Lords, I do not want to interrupt the noble Lord, but may I say that it is almost impossible to hear him because of what is going on outside? I do not know whether it is bombs or something else, but perhaps something could be done.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I am sorry. I thought I had raised my voice to the limit. If there is a certain amount of sabotage behind the noble Baroness, then I am afraid that it is for other authorities to deal with.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I have sent a message to Black Rod to see whether he can stop all this banging and thumping, but perhaps the Government Front Bench will join in the protest behind the scenes, because it is rather intolerable.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am sure that it is being attended to, but we shall try to hasten it.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, here is another reason why I think an extra effort should be made by Her Majesty's Government to get international agreement on action for sanctions which will mean that this kind of crime does not pay. That is really what we are seeking. We are trying to show that those who engage upon these acts will not benefit from them, and this will be possible if we can secure sufficient agreement among the members of ICAO. The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, told us that 57 States have now ratified the Tokyo Convention and 42 have ratified the Hague Convention. I understand that some 11 have already ratified the Montreal Convention and the noble Lord has indicated that he expects more ratifications to follow. What I now ask him is: are we to wait until there is universal ratification of the Legal Committees proposals or can we assume that there will be a point of time when there will be sufficient States ratifying to ensure that sanctions can be applied? The situation we want is where sufficient major nations of the world will withdraw from any nation which does not implement these conventions the facilities which airlines must have in flying about the world. Navigational facilities of one kind or another ought to be denied to those States which do not implement these conventions. I accept that it is quite impossible for unilateral action to be taken by Her Majesty's Government, but I wonder
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whether the noble Lord can indicate the kind of number of States that he would wish to see ratify before teeth can be put into these agreements.
I want to make just one other point. In our debate on July 21, 1971, I called attention to the fact that problems of this kind can affect transport on the high seas, and since then we have had the QE 2 incident. If there were a need for any evidence to support the point which I made, that evidence was supplied by the QE 2 incident a month or two later. In July, 1971, when I asked why the provisions of these conventions could not be applied to shipping, the noble Lord said:
"… we had to balance the desirability of getting this Bill through as quickly as possible with the desirability of including provisions dealing with hijacking of ships. That would have delayed the Bill. The matter is under consideration, however, and I hope that legislation on this matter will not be long delayed."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 21/7/71; col. 1064.]
That was in July, 1971. I wonder what sort of definition can be given to the phrase "not be long delayed". Has there been consideration and, if so, what was the result of that consideration? Is there any reason why shipping should not have been dealt with in this Bill?
Although I have praised the noble Lord and his Government for the promptitude with which they have ratified these other conventions, I might remind him that a little while ago we discussed the Geneva Convention on the mortgaging of aircraft, the ratification of which is still outstanding, but I think I am right in saying that we signed in 1947. Therefore there is a choice of time scale. We can have promptitude of this kind or we can delay matters for some decades. Therefore, I am asking whether the noble Lord is able to assure us that this problem of shipping is one which will be dealt with in the near future. In the meantime, I again thank the noble Lord and his Government for the promptitude with which they have acted in this case; and for our part, certainly, we shall facilitate putting the Bill upon the Statute Book.
3.37 p.m.
EARL AMHERST: My Lords, I am very happy to follow the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, in supporting this Bill. Also, I should like to associate everybody on these Benches with what he has said, and particularly with what he has said

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about the ordeals that face these crews when crimes are committed in their aircraft. I should also like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, for so clearly explaining the details of this Bill, the purpose of which is to enable us to ratify the recent Convention in Montreal for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Civil Aviation. If I may say so, the Bill comes none too soon. Only a few hours ago, we heard of another outrage. I think we can call these outrages the scourge of our modern aviation transport.
If I read the Bill correctly—and here I must speak with care, as I cannot claim any legal knowledge—it covers, both in our laws and in our extradition treaties, those who engage in this kind of sabotage, and it provides for certain penalties. It may be questioned whether these penalties are severe enough at least to provide a deterrent for those who may be tempted to engage in these acts of terrorism and sabotage. A considerable problem arises on the question of the deterrent, because although the penalties envisaged in the Bill may act as a deterrent for those who may be tempted to engage in these crimes purely for the purpose of robbery and financial gain, what about those who engage in these crimes for purely ideological reasons? It seems that the latter category are often largely indifferent to whether or not they lose their lives or their liberties in the process.
The Bill seems to cover all acts of sabotage in British-registered civil aircraft, wherever they are, and also aircraft within our territorial limits on land, sea or in the air. It also enables a police officer to prevent an individual from boarding an aircraft, if the officer has reason to believe that the person is doing so with the intention of committing sabotage. Therefore the Bill provides for the situation after the act of sabotage has been committed; but apart from the powers given to a constable, it does not seem to make any specific provision for preventive action. At the moment, it is left to the airlines and airport authorities to implement such searches and preventive action as they may devise and as they may decide upon, either individually or collectively.
But what about those who aid and abet? In this category, surely, come those States and organisations which pro-
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vide asylum for these criminals, notably some Arab States. Cuba, I think, was an offender, but seems to be having some remorse. I suggest that if these asylums can be eliminated, then we shall have gone a very long way to cure the ill. We now know that the United Nations International Civil Aviation Organisation's Legal Committee is to meet in Montreal on January 9, and in August next year there are to be, probably in London, high diplomatic discussions to produce an international Convention. But next August is a long way off, as the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, has drawn to our attention, and in the meantime it may well be that there will be other acts of sabotage, and indeed loss of life. Cannot Her Majesty's Government now take the initiative in stirring up international legal action, as opposed to just Conventions? These are matters which surely we must all agree are of the most urgent character. Meanwhile, we on these Benches welcome this Bill as being a step in the right direction.
3.42 p.m.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: I should like to apologise at the start for being unavoidably absent at the beginning of the Second Reading of this Bill. I should also like, with other noble Lords, to welcome this Bill briefly, and to add my congratulations to the Government on their promptness in ratifying the Montreal Convention. The more one talks to experts in the field of hijacking, the more it seems pretty clear that, whatever other steps are taken to try to contain this disease, the main objective is to get international agreement. I must say that I felt a little dispirited to find that, of the participants in the three Conventions we have so far held—Tokyo, The Hague, and now Montreal—less than 30 per cent. of the countries have felt able to sign the Conventions and so accept the discipline of them.
One of the reasons for some countries hesitating on this matter of signing must be, one assumes, that to return a hijacker who has sought political asylum in a particular country would be unacceptable, particularly if he came from a country totally opposed to their political system. If this is correct, and accepting that extradition agreements may at present be unenforceable between certain countries, one wonders why the category of the

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political asylum hijacker could not be separated from the other categories of hijackers under the Convention statutes. If this were done, it would seem possible for all civilised countries, whatever their political colours, to treat air pirates as criminals whose fate would be determined by the country whose airline they had plotted against. If this was not acceptable, perhaps on the grounds that some countries have the death penalty and others do not, surely it would seem possible to agree that, from whatever country a criminal or ransom hijacker sought refuge, there would be a mandatory sentence awaiting him on his arrival. Perhaps this is one avenue which is at present being explored by ICAO; I do not know. But it is astonishing to note how different countries treat hijacking at present. One sees from evidence one has been able to obtain that this varies enormously: from America, where in one case a hijacker received a sentence of 50 years, to another in the Lebanon, where a hijacker received only nine months; from Russia, a death penalty sentence which was commuted to 15 years with hard labour, to Sweden where a sentence of only 22 months was given. From the information that I have been able to obtain, the majority of countries appear to sentence hijackers to between five and seven years—a sentence which does not seem either a strong enough deterrent or to reflect what a serious criminal offence it is.
Besides the international agreement which is so essential in tackling this problem, clearly another vital preventive is airport security. It is, one knows, a matter which, in the case of the British airports authority, has been tackled with great skill and with silent skill. It is, however, a matter which I believe many British airline pilots are concerned about on airports abroad. I understand that while some countries have first-class security facilities, others appear not to tackle the problem with sufficient seriousness. It will be interesting to learn whether, in these cases, the Government take up the question of airport security. At a time when hijacking is occurring so frequently—eight cases in the last five weeks—there is indeed a great deal of responsibility and a very high stress, as the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, mentioned,
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on the pilots and on their crews, as well as, of course, on their passengers, and I believe they deserve very special sympathy and support. I hope that the Government feel able to take up, and are in fact taking up, cases where the British pilots report a lack of security at certain foreign airports. Perhaps my noble friend could deal with this point when he comes to reply.
My Lords, in any discussion on hijacking the subject clearly falls into two parts. The first is on preventive measures and the second is on how to deal with a hijacking case which in fact exists. In recent months we have seen, as I have said, a very disturbing increase in hijacking. Indeed, when the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, says that hijacking should not pay, again from the figures which I have been able to obtain I think, sadly, that at the moment hijacking does pay; and I hope this trend can soon be reversed. In nearly all hijacking cases, the negotiations which have been conducted appear to have taken place, regrettably, in the air; and it always seems to me very strange that at the time of refuelling on the ground, perhaps before they go up again to carry out further negotiations, the pilot or the captain is not able to push some button to put the aircraft out of service. This is perhaps a slightly amateur suggestion, but I believe it is worthy of consideration.
One of the factors about which I have been unable to obtain any information—and again it is a matter which the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, mentioned—is that of the appalling stress caused to the captain and his crew in such situations. In the case of the captain and his crew, one wonders what compensation, if any, is to be paid where, due to the stress, early retirement has occurred. Is it a matter to be left to the airlines alone, or is it a matter to be taken up by the Government, and indeed by other countries which have been involved in hijackings? I should like to end by again congratulating the Government, who have given, I believe, a welcome lead and shown an example in ratifying the Montreal Convention, and I wish them every success in persuading other countries to follow in an attempt to cure what clearly is the worst disease which at present plagues the civil air transport industry.
3.49 p.m.
LORD JANNER: My Lords, I am sure that all of us were glad to see that the Bill which we are now considering will enable us to ratify the Montreal Convention, and we are grateful for this further step in the direction of an attempt to deal with the scourge of hijacking. I should like to congratulate the Government on the step which they have taken; and I should also like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, on the concise and precise way in which he has presented the Bill to us. It is, however, a pity that there has been some delay in ratifying the Convention, which was signed a year ago; but I am bound to say that the Government have been very much speedier in this matter than they, and other Governments, have been with regard to ratifying other Conventions. I remember that the Genocide Convention took some 15 years to be ratified, so perhaps I should congratulate the Government even on the time they have taken.
My Lords, we are dealing with what I have previously, and I believe aptly, described as a cancerous growth on civilisation. May I say at this stage to the noble Earl who has just spoken that even in war there are certain actions which the contending parties accept as being uncivilised, inhuman and not permissible. If the noble Earl consults the Geneva Convention he will see that that is so. Here, as I have said, we are dealing with a scourge which I have previously described as a cancerous growth on civilisation, a cancerous growth whose menace continues to spread. The Conventions that have been ratified and all the appropriate steps that have been taken up to now have apparently brought some measure of relief; but the intensity of the growth increases. Even the ratifying of the Montreal Convention cannot possibly result in its destruction. It must be cut out by a major surgical operation by the civilised nations of the world—and I emphasise the word "civilised".
I would draw the attention of noble Lords to the shameful submission to blackmail by the West German Government on October 29 last, when no attempt at all was made to frustrate the hijacking plans for the handing over of the Munich murderers whose action horrified the
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world. No attempt at all was made to prevent that handing over. The escalation of this horrific crime was evident as recently as Saturday last from the hijacking of a civil aeroplane and the terrible strain experienced by the crew and passengers before they were eventually released from their anguish. I, too, should like to pay a tribute, as I am sure would everybody, to the courage of the pilots who, during these terrible experiences, have acted in a manner which is to be highly commended. The one important lesson that has emerged from this crime is that if these pirates of the air could find no landing place in a country which would give them asylum, they would have no alternative hut to land in a country where they would be compelled to surrender to the authorities to be dealt with under such international and national laws as that country had accepted for punishing them. Reference has already been made to Cuba; but in this instance, so far as we know, Cuba has acted in a manner in which we should like all the countries of the world to act. I do not know whether they have yet returned the ransom but it is to be hoped that they will do so.
I have appealed on many occasions to this Government and to previous Governments to realise that the only effective way of stopping these pirate murderers and assassins is to bring pressure on the countries which are still prepared to harbour them, to give them facilities for training or to finance them. This pressure should take the form of imposing appropriate sanctions on those uncivilised countries. Air services to those countries and landing places for their planes should be refused them by the civilised world. In this age of communication by air, nothing could be more effective than to deprive offending nations of these facilities. Endangering the passengers and crews of other nations (as well as, in some cases, of their own) through their total disregard of the elementary rules of humanity cannot be tolerated. The knowledge that no country would harbour them caused hijackers to surrender in Spain and in Turkey, for example. I was glad to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, that steps are being taken to deal with some of the features to which I have referred in coping with the situation.

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My Lords, there is another method of dealing with this curse of hijacking which I think should not be overlooked. Pending the adoption of the measures to which I have referred, or running concurrently with them, this other method is to flush the criminals out of their training dens. In this respect I cannot understand why the Government take every opportunity of attacking Israel when she undertakes that operation. Surely, no one can expect Israel to wait for the criminals to be prepared and trained for killing men, women and children of all nations in general and her own in particular, when she knows that the assassins are being schooled in places close to her own border, and with the full knowledge and approval of the responsible national Governments there. The hijackers know very well that it is their bases which Israel attacks. If they surround those bases with civilians, it is they who commit the additional crime of using innocent people as a shield while preparing to kill other innocent people. The States harbouring the murderers are accessories to their crime and are not in a position justifiably to complain if their potential victims, knowing the location of the training centres, refuse to allow themselves to be slaughtered by vicious men and women who plan their destruction there. Everybody knows these facts and I cannot think that any noble Lord could believe them to be otherwise. It is with the knowledge of these States that these dens are being used. The encouragement this brings to the hijackers is something that we should not tolerate. Ultimately, one cannot fail to realise that it is not Israel alone who suffers; it is the world as a whole.
I understand too that at the present time in the United Nations the U.S.A. is putting forward to the General Assembly for consideration proposals similar to those to which I have referred. I sincerely hope that the Government will support them wholeheartedly in this respect. Again I should like to thank the Government for the step they have taken. Time is running heavily against the civilised world. We cannot allow this hijacking to go on. All the excuses made about "protecting" these people or about allowing people to hijack because of their alleged political ideology is sheer nonsense when it comes to dealing with a grave
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situation of vice by which the civilised world is threatened.
4.0 p.m.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, like other noble Lords who have spoken, I welcome the Bill now before us and I should like briefly to consider a few points from it. First, I would take up a point made by my noble friend Lord Kinnoull. He pointed out the discrepancy between the penalties provided for in some countries and those laid down by others. I wonder whether the proposed penalty of ten years that is laid down as the maximum to be imposed in the United Kingdom courts is sufficient. I can easily conceive of a situation where nothing short of life imprisonment would be sufficient. I should also like to echo a thought which several noble Lords have voiced: that the disease being what it is, and growing at the rate it is, as many nations as possible ought to be encouraged to ratify this Convention at the earliest possible moment.
There is a further omission from the Bill which I should like to raise with the noble Lord who is to reply. I refer to the situation that may arise in which, for one reason or another, those who hijack a United Kingdom-registered or other registered aircraft outside the United Kingdom end up here. From my reading of the Bill it seems that they are not specifically covered and that we should have to rely on extradition arrangements with other nations, if they existed, to be able to prosecute such people—does the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, wish to intervene?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I was wondering what it was the noble Lord was asking me to reply to. If an offender is in this country already, there can be no question of extradition.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS): Or lands here.
LORD DRUMALBYN: I did not quite understand the point.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, I am thinking of a situation in which a crime is committed outside the United Kingdom—
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: That is covered.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, I am told the point is covered, in which case I will not labour it.
The next question is the matter of the generality of political or so-called political hijackers, or saboteurs, who claim exemption from the rigours of the law by virtue of the fact that they are seeking political asylum. I believe this to provide too large a loophole which will lead to a situation whereby the law is brought into disrepute because all and sundry will claim political exemption, usually quite unjustifiably.
Finally, my Lords, I should like to echo what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, and to give it as much conviction as I can. It is only a matter of time before there is a catastrophe of incredible magnitude. One can imagine a Jumbo-jet crashing with 300, 400 or even 500 passengers and the whole lot being killed. Do we want to see that happen? I am sure that we do not. Therefore let us use every means in our power to secure world-wide ratification of this Convention and see that this law is put on the Statute Book as soon as possible.
4.3 p.m.
LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURY: My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, I have to declare an interest as I am, with him, a joint Vice-President of the British Airline Pilots' Association. It is an honorary post, and while the duties are not very onerous at times they are rather worrying. I am also a director of an air freight company. Here, too, although we do not have the same problem as with passengers, there are risks involved. I would remind your Lordships that up to the beginning of the war cargo and passenger ships plying up the China coast from Hong Kong to Shanghai were frequently pirated. The superstructure was protected by grills, and Indian guards were based at either end with rifles. I, too, would like to see shipping covered at an early date by a similar Bill. We had the experience of the Q.E.2 a few months ago, and I think that shipping ought to be covered.
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Already, my Lords, these hijacks are far too frequent, and they will not cease suddenly because of legislation. While this debate is helpful and I have no doubt the Government have taken the lead and done all that they can do, I stress that it is a matter of urgency to persuade other countries to come into line, and is not something which can possibly wait until next August. Most hijacks originate in the United States and usually they involve aircraft of domestic airlines. That is a matter for the jurisdiction of the United States Government. About three months ago I was flying with another Britisher from New York to Puerto Rico. I said, "They do not seem to know much about searching baggage, flying down to the Caribbean." I made inquiries and I was told, "No, we do not search the baggage; it would delay all the domestic flights." Well, my Lords, we had been out of New York about 50 minutes when the aircraft began to behave in a rather extraordinary way. I saw that fuel was being dumped and I made inquiries, and I was told that there had been a message that there was a bomb on board. I told my colleague what had happened. He said, "What do we do?" I said, "Nothing except have a large brandy and soda and then have another one." Such experiences are very unpleasant because you feel so helpless.
In the last three years, some 20,000 passengers and air crews have been involved in hijacks. That is a great number of people. As has been said, in the one last Saturday the aircrew went through the terrible ordeal of flying an aircraft for something like 20 to 22 hours. What with postal bombs, we are living in a very troubled world. It is fashionable now to live in this torment. But we have to tackle this problem: there is no doubt about that. The difficulty is, what do we do? I think we need at a very early date to get agreement among the Powers. The British Government have given a lead. The Bill that we are discussing will enable the United Kingdom to ratify the international Convention of Montreal for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Civil Aviation. These measures will not solve the problem. Many countries have not recognised that Convention. We know who they are, without mentioning names, and there is

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a very good reason why they do not recognise it.
I would remind your Lordships that four or five years ago a British registered H.S.125 jet executive aircraft was chartered by Mr. Tshombe. As we well know, it was hijacked to Liberia. To the best of my recollection it was several weeks, if not months, before the crew returned, and the aeroplane was detained there for very much longer. We know what happened to Mr. Tshombe; he died in that country. But we were never told the circumstances. I raised this matter on several occasions in another place at the time, and I think that the Government of the day were flabby and weak in dealing with the problem. A man had died. No urgency was put into the matter and we did not set an example to the rest of the world over one of the first important hijackings in the history of Western Europe.
The British Airline Pilots' Association are conducting a referendum of their members to see what support they will get for the International Federation of Airline Pilots. We have already been told what ICAO is doing, but we do not know what will happen with the International Federation. They are to have a conference on December 12 and 13. There are 64 different known pilots' associations throughout the world. One recommendation is to have a world strike of 24 to 48 hours of pilots to show the importance of this matter, or to bring sanctions against the offending State. It is tempting to say to the pilots, "You take this matter into your own hands". Frankly, I do not think that will do. Pilots and individuals cannot take the place of a Government in bringing about sanctions. That is a matter for Government and not for aircrews, who have their own job to do. That is something the aircrews must leave to the politicians.
Many of these matters are complicated by some countries giving asylum to people from any country. No matter who they are, or what they do, they get asylum, although it is encouraging to see in Press reports of the last day or two that the three men who hijacked the Douglas D.C.9 in the United States will get imprisonment for life. We do not know, but we hope that they may be returned to the United States. If they are, not, we hope that President Castro
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will deal with the matter in his own way. We are told that the money involved is in the hands of the Swiss Embassy. That shows some progress. If the pilots themselves were to take action there could be sanctions taken against aircrews by other countries. There could be closures of air space and harassment of foreigners leaving those countries. But the British Airline Pilots Association say that it is the duty of the Government to try to solve this problem.
The spasmodic searching of passengers is not useless; it has done a certain amount of good. B.O.A.C. has collected many weapons—knives and so on. But one search a day is not enough. On the other hand, if you carry out continual searches you disorganise the whole timetable of the air fleet, and with plastic weapons it is even more difficult going through the geiger machine at the entrance pit. This puts a tremendous responsibility on the captain and on the ground staff. The noble Lord, Lord Beswick, referred to one captain, whose name I will not mention, who was involved in an incident. But this man was very sick. He hopes to return to flying at a future date, but it is very questionable whether he will. This is a working man's career. We do not know where all this is going to end.
But the danger, my Lords, is not of a hijacker taking a pin out of a hand grenade and blowing a hole in the aeroplane. The danger is that hijackers will give directions to the captain to fly to a place where the runway may be too short, or where there may be insufficient aids at night. There may be a genuine technical fault in the aeroplane, and even if the hijackers are told by the captain they will not believe it. Then the captain will be confronted with the prospect of making an emergency landing. Those are the circumstances in which we are likely to get a disaster rather than from an explosion in the aeroplane.
Of course there are many suggestions going around, and it is very easy to make them. It was suggested to me yesterday evening by an eminent doctor that one way of coping with this situation was, when the aeroplane lands on the ground to pick up the ransom or to refuel, to have in the luggage rack apparatus whereby you can anaesthetise everybody, including the air crew. I do

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not know whether that is a possibility. Then you have to consider whether it is advisable to carry armed guards. I believe that Lufthansa are now carrying them, El Al, the Israeli Airline, and I believe the American International air lines carry one armed guard if not two. That may be worth considering. Whether B.O.A.C. carry armed guards, I do not know: they probably do, but have not made an announcement. All these matters should be considered.
I conclude, my Lords, as I started, by saying that it is the responsibility of Governments to try—and the British Government have already given a lead—to get an early agreement between as many nations as possible; and having got that agreement from the maximum number within a given, fairly short period, then, if the offending State does not extradite or punish the hijackers and return the aircraft, sanctions must be imposed by withholding aircraft mail, freight and passengers. To-day, most countries confronted with that situation would, I think, soon come into line and conform with what we are trying to achieve.
4.13 p.m.
LORD HALE: My Lords, I hope your Lordships will forgive me if, in what is a debate of great gravity, on a situation which I think has worsened in the last few hours, I make what may seem to the House to be a purely verbal point. I should like to make it, because President Pompidou did try to defend the French language, and I learned with some regret of the incorporation of the language of the bootleg barons on the Statute Book of England. It would ill become me to criticise those of your Lordships who were diligently labouring in the legislative vineyard while I was chewing the cud in the political pound. The noble Lord on the Front Bench apologised at the time for coining the word "hijacking". I know that it came from a convention; I know that that was the explanation given. But the word "mugging" appeared on the Order Paper only last week. I am interested in the interception of telephone calls, which will presumably become known as "bugging" when the Government decide that bugging's turn is next. I view with some horror the possibility of having the Hijacking (No. 2) Bill, the Mugging Prevention Bill, the Bugging Extension Bill
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and the Weenyboppers' Protection Bill; "La Reine le veuet", and,
"Milton, thou should'st be living at this hour."
This is a great debate, my Lords, and I certainly do not want to give it what appears to be anything approaching a touch of frivolity. I disagree profoundly with what the noble Lord, Lord Janner, said in his criticism of Chancellor Brandt. I think Chancellor Brandt gave every evidence of doing his best; of taking over what was a dreadful position and assuming a dreadful responsibility. Whether he did the right thing or not is not for anyone to say. In this kind of situation one can only do one's best.
LORD JANNER: My Lords, does the noble Lord know how long elapsed before a decision was made, and whether the West German authorities had any knowledge of the possibility or probability of such an event?
LORD HALE: My Lords, I must assume the truth of what we are told by friendly Governments. I am told that they had not. If the noble Lord goes into that, we had to face a comparable situation in the case of Miss Leila Khaled. The British authorities had there to decide whether to release her in exchange for the lives of the pilot and crew and a number of the passengers on an aeroplane. Nobody will ever know whether we took the right decision. I know that I should not wish to criticise those who shoulder such a responsibility, or those who have to decide whether to allow a kidnapped man to be murdered or to pay a ransom. These are dreadful decisions to have to make. Of course one could take a quite simple argumentative line and say we must establish a custom, we must establish an international law. But all of us know that the conditions are not there.
While the noble Lord, Lord Harvey of Prestbury, is still here, and while I have the benefit of the presence of the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, I, who know nothing of these things, but do at least have a fighter pilot in the family, would like to make one small suggestion, which the noble Lord can rise and shoot down in a moment. We were considering this point when a suggestion appeared in The Times on November 10, and which itself seemed to be shot down on November

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12, because it presented one obvious weakness. But is it not possible to make the pilot and crew of a large modern aeroplane, even if it means sacrificing the front row of seats, absolutely incommunicado? I am told that it would not affect the safety of the plane. I am told that if there were to be a bullet-proof partition which made the crew incommunicado, the pilot would still be, as he always is, in charge of the planed in charge of the safety of the plane, communicating with the instrument panel and so on, on flights which nowadays do not often last for more than a few hours, and he alone communicating with the other aerodrome. This of course is likely to meet a point made by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull. It is difficult to know why nothing can be done when the aeroplane gets on the ground. The reason is that the pilot has been compelled to radio instructions that the personnel normally on the ground shall be away, that no one shall approach the plane and so on.
The point I am making is a quite simple one—and if the noble Lord thinks I am talking nonsense, I should be happy if he would say so at once: that if the pilot is incommunicado he cannot be made to give the instructions which arrange for immunity of the pirates on the ground. I know that noble Lords will think of the possibility of some accident to the rear of the plane—of an engine burning itself out or landing apparatus not working; but I am told that to-day all that is in the hands of the pilot and his instrument panel; that it is dealt with in that way. If a little extra visibility to the plane itself is required, that does not present any problem. I make that suggestion quite humbly. It may be nonsense. It is made after much hesitation, but I think that it might deal with some of the problems of the immediate situation.
What I had intended to say, and will say now, is this. We are faced with a problem which involves three clearly defined types of people. There is first the professional criminal who thinks the gamble worth the taking. He can be dealt with at any rate by making the gamble not worth the taking; and if he knows that he cannot communicate with the pilots he will turn his activities to an easier or more profitable type of
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crime. Then there is the case of the psychotic. This is a much more difficult problem. To some extent the crime of the psychotic is an imitative one. Every time one of these events gets publicity other people to start to think of the possibility of attracting, mainly, notoriety; what they regard mainly as fame and as a great adventure.
But here I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Janner: we are dealing with something else; we are dealing with the indoctrinated political warrior who knows no fear, and will know none, and will not be deterred. It is known that, whatever the faults of Israel and whatever the faults of the Arabs, there are Arab countries now where young lads are taught that hatred of Jewry, that vengeance on Jewry, that punishment and assassination of Jewry, is the highest religious duty. All wars, of course, are religious—you never get an agnostic war—and the flames of fanaticism are fanned. The world has seen this before, and we paid 10 million lives as the penalty for ignoring it. I think it was Giles Playfair who wrote a very sensitive book, which is worth reading again. This showed how a little girl of fifteen, who was a Roman Catholic teacher in a Sunday school, developed after three years of indoctrination into the beast of Belsen. And this happened. It happened in Germany; it happened to one of the most civilised people in the world. It happened on a vast scale.
The Arab countries to-day are countries of increasing power and wealth. There is very little evidence that any of them have a desire to condemn this attitude; indeed, there is clear evidence that some of them are actively encouraging it. I say, with regret, that I do not believe that the United Nations can deal with this problem. It cannot be dealt with on the basis of a vast organisation which contains many countries that have no interest in this matter and no urge to stop the practice. Some of them have every desire to keep out, but some countries are known to participate. So, though I welcome this Bill, which is a perfectly good Bill, and links some of the legal problems, it remains the fact that it is almost irrelevant to the world situation. It remains the fact that you have to take Mrs. Beeton's advice and "First catch your hijacker". It is not easy, and all the talk about extradition and all the provisions for making a trial

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possible are taking place in a world in which there have been very few trials.
There is one thing that could be done. We are told that the men who landed in Cuba are in durance vile and will remain there. We are told that the men who used to go to Algeria are kept in durance vile. Well, I hope that that is true. We ought to have more publicity on that aspect, because that publicity would deter others—at any rate, the criminal class, and also, perhaps, some of the psychotics. This is a world in which we have seen violence in continual escalation. We have seen murder. We have seen it in Northern Ireland, where surely an ecumenical society could and ought to be making a contribution to peace. We have seen a fairly casual treatment of political assassination. We have seen outrages on children. We have seen the ordinary process of the post being used for the purpose of anonymous assassination. What is required is an effort by people of good will of every country, for these are words and these are phrases: they mean so little.
I hope that the noble Lord on the Front Bench will take as the message from this House the fact that we congratulate him on the steps he has taken but urge him to take every possible step to impress upon the countries with whom he is negotiating the extreme urgency of these deliberations and the fact that they should not be unnecessarily delayed. I would also stress the extreme urgency of using these powers collectively, and using them to the fullest possible extent on those countries which are found guilty of taking part in the fomentation of violence or in the assistance of outrage.
House adjourned during pleasure, and resumed by the Lord Chancellor.
4.37 p.m.
LORD GAINFORD: My Lords, it is one blessing to have one's name down at the end of a debate, because so much of what one might have said has already been mentioned. I certainly add my welcome to this Bill and particularly to the words of my noble friend Lord Harvey for having been able to give us some first-hand account of what it is like to be in a threatened aeroplane. Because of the world-wide news sensation of the latest hijacking attempt, the Bill we are debating to-day will bring considerable peace of mind to travellers and all air-
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lines who will benefit from its protection when it becomes law. To increase security and to minimise the risk of one of these hateful incidents occurring will require patience and co-operation in passengers. I believe that most of them—and I have heard some accounts of what they have had to go through—are willing and grateful to give the necessary time for all the checks. The attitude of some of our British passengers may be like that of the middle-aged couple, in a leading humorous magazine, who calmly went up to the information officer saying, "Please, where do we go to get frisked?"
However, in the event of one or more criminals managing to evade the restrictions and carrying out a hijack attempt, we are faced with what has been mentioned already—a modern version of piracy. All this legal business, although extremely welcome, will take time. We must find some way of discouraging as quickly as possible the intending hijackers. If my memory serves me correctly, an honourable Member in another place a few months ago gave a radio interview in which he stated that he would like to see legislation to make an act of surrender to a hijacker illegal. This would make any hijacker pause and consider. The chief weapons of the aspirant hijacker is fear. Fight that fear with a show of willingness to stand up to his threats and call his bluff, and that weapon is reduced in effectiveness.
The usual object of a hijacker, as we know, is to get money or a free ride to some destination—often both. We want to remove or reduce the likelihood of their getting what they want. And then just how fanatical are they going to be? I would gladly support any legislation to make it illegal to surrender to the demands of a hijacker, but if there were such a law all passengers should be given full warning of its existence and every opportunity to take out all possible insurance. Some might be put off, but I do not think very many would. There is always the psychology that the unpleasant thing is going to happen to somebody else.
In the days of piracy at sea, trade still, went on and finally piracy was suppressed. Those who were not captured realised that there was no further percentage in the business. It is easy to discuss such legislation here in the safety

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of your Lordships' House, but each hijack attempt has its own peculiar problems and situations. In the air the captain has the absolute responsibility for everything that happens, and he must take decisions that may even involve breaking laws to ensure the safety of his passengers. The noble Lord, Lord Beswick, paid great tribute to the strain on a captain. We are very grateful that so far most of the hijacking attempts have not involved many British aircraft; but from each attempt we can learn something and make our own airliners and airports more secure. At present I can recall only one incident of a British aircraft being involved; it was a rather unpleasant unsavoury political situation in the Middle East.
In some situations, as in the recent one in America, there has been a demand for parachutes. Airlines do not usually provide parachutes. Where do the parachutes come from? Who makes them available? If parachutes are handed into an aircraft, usually accompanied by a ransom, it would be very nice to make the hijacker worry a bit about the serviceability of the parachute. A parachute can be inspected only by undoing a flap on the pack in order to see that the rip cord is installed and the locking pin correctly placed and not bent. There is also some coloured cord which prevents the pack opening at the slightest touch on the rip cord, yet anyone who has to use it can open it with a sharp, determined pull which does not require much strength. The harness can be inspected: you can untuck the corners of the pack and see a little bit of nylon, but only the good Lord, those responsible for the packing and, finally, the user, can tell if that pack really contains a parachute. I believe that any hijacker who demands a parachute should be handed a pack containing a bundle of old laundry.
Let us leave hypothetical cases. Clearly, the real security is on the ground, and the greater the prevention the less likelihood of having to seek any drastic cure. The greatest precautions are necessarily prepared before take-off. What happens when an aircraft lands is another matter. I should like to take this opportunity, in connection with the recent hijack attempt, of saying that the attack on the F.B.I. man who had the courage to take a shot at the aircraft is totally regrettable. He
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must be suffering enough in the knowledge that the gamble that he was brave enough to take failed and that the copilot was shot. But it did not altogether entirely fail; it rattled the hijackers and they realised that someone was going to stand up to them. That F.B.I. man should suffer no condemnation for his action. I have every possible praise for the police and security personnel who have the courage to make an attempt to capture the perpetrators of revolting crimes. It is also true that one or more persons may have been hurt or even killed. There was an incident in the U.S.A. when the police stormed an airliner and a man was killed. That was a horrible occurrence; but the hijack attempt failed, and the criminals were either shot or captured. When such an attempt is made with success, and other passengers get away safely, those who suffer, or have to suffer the loss of someone important like a husband, should know that they do not suffer in vain. Any further legislation that can provide compensation for them should certainly be considered.
I may seem rather outspoken in this matter. Every hijack that I read or hear about fills me with such fury that I have, deliberately taken the opportunity to express my views in your Lordships' House in this debate. Wherever this Bill applies it will make it more likely that in any emergency good reason and common sense will prevail. Such a situation is usually brought to a satisfactory close, and we are hoping that in future it will be brought in in such a manner that will be a good example for the rest of the world to follow. Should all reason and peaceful efforts fail, and a situation arise in which, unfortunately, more forceful measures must be used, I for one shall have all possible sympathy for any member of aircrew, airport staff, police, security personnel, or, for that matter, passengers, who, in the vernacular, "has a go".
4.36 p.m.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, before my noble friend replies, may I say that I am sure that the Government have the thanks of this House for bringing forward this Bill. We are very grateful. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, has spoken of the problem for pilots. It is a deep problem. Their

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courage gives us great confidence in the very wide margins of safety in which all commercial airlines are run. Otherwise, indubitably, there would have been an extremely serious accident arising from what has happened recently. Secondly, the crews of our commercial aircraft have great courage and a very high standard of competence. But do we go far enough in this Bill? I have only two small points to raise on this matter. For instance, it is an offence to interfere in any way with the management of an aircraft. Surely it should also be an offence to threaten to interfere. We know that some hijackers have been successful using a pencil instead of a revolver. I should like to go into this point during the Committee stage. In Clause 8, I wonder whether the definition of "in flight" as being when the doors are closed is sufficiently wide. Violence can occur when passengers are aboard and the doors are not closed. That is a Committee point which I shall perhaps take up at a later stage.
I was interested in what the noble Lord said about the National Aviation Security Committee. I know that the noble Lord will not want to talk about it, and I know nothing about this matter at all, but may I take this point: this should be, not as the noble Lord said simply a co-ordinating body, but something very near a military staff, with people accustomed to dealing with acts of violence, with a full source of information, drawn on what is happening and what could happen. It should have powers of execution—I mean "execution" in the fullest sense. They should be able to take charge of a situation with authority and with the knowledge that they have authority to carry out bargains with desperate men. I should like to think that some organisation of this sort is already in being, or in the minds of those who are in control, because if any action takes place here and there is hesitation in the control and execution, I think the security will take a very bad view of it.
4.39 p.m.
EARL FORTESCUE: My Lords, I apologise for arriving late and for saying something which I hinted at recently. The noble Lord, Lord Hale, has already taken most of the words out of my mouth. It appears to me that hijacking
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needs to be made impossible, and having an impenetrable bulkhead between the cockpit and the passengers should go a long way towards that. There could be a bell, as there is in a bus or a train, which could be rung and would merely mean, "Please stop at the next convenient opportunity". The pilot could then contact by radio whatever aerodrome he liked and say, "I think there is some bother at the back; please take precautions". On arrival, obviously the bandits must be prevented from presenting an ultimatum while the passengers are still on board and the machine is vulnerable. That could be overcome by having nothing except a communication by loudhailer from the ground to the stationary aeroplane, and an emergency exit for the passengers. One could then get everybody out on the grass and any hijacker could be dealt with piecemeal. Obviously that would lead to considerable inconvenience for passengers, but surely anything is better than continuing as we are at present.
4.40 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am grateful to your Lordships for the reception you have given to this Bill: I do not think there have been any dissentient voices. We have received a great many suggestions on which I am not competent to pronounce, but I can assure your Lordships that notice will be taken of them. We have also received a good deal of advice. I suppose it was inevitable that, in spite of the fact that this Bill deals mainly with sabotage, destruction of aircraft in service and so on, speeches should have been concerned mainly with hijacking. I do not complain about that and the advice that has been given has made the debate well worth while.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, for what he said to start with and for the tribute he paid to initiatives taken by Her Majesty's Government. I am sorry I was distracted at the opening of his speech, but the noble Lord knows that this tends to happen when one sits down. He raised one or two points with which I should like to deal. I should like to endorse strongly what the noble Lord, Lord Beswick. my noble friend Lord Harvey of Prestbury and my noble friend Lord Selkirk, and others, have said about the skill of the pilots and

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their enormous courage in dealing with hijacking. We must bear in mind that the pilot sees his main responsibility as one to his passengers for their safety. I am not certain that I would go all the way with the noble Lord who suggested that, come what may, it should be an offence to give way to a hijacker in any circumstances at all. What is quite plain is that, if we are to secure the safety of passengers, we must make certain so far as we can that the would-be hijacker does not get on to the plane in the first place. This must inevitably be the first task.
I have said that surveys of security are being carried out progressively over the whole of the 25 airports in this country that have international traffic, and considerable progress has been made already. This is the right way to tackle that problem. And, of course, along with that goes, by the same token, constant vigilance to ensure that not only does no passenger take on board anything that could damage the aircraft, but nobody else does, either. It is not always an easy task, but this is something which, as I see it, must be undertaken by every contracting State that adheres to this Convention. I think it was my noble friend Lord Kinnoull who referred to this point. ICAO have prepared a security manual to which Her Majesty's Government have made an important contribution, and this has been circulated to all 120 members of ICAO. It provides advice and guidance on security measures which might be taken to combat hijacking and sabotage. The threat varies between States, but many countries are acting on the advice contained in the security manual, and we shall certainly be prepared to consider any case of difficulty which might be brought to our attention by the pilots (or airlines) on their voyages abroad. My noble friend also made suggestions about combatting hijacking. I would emphasise that a good deal of scientific effort is at the present time being devoted to developing ways of dealing with hijacking, although your Lordships will appreciate that I cannot go into any details of that.
The noble Lord, Lord Beswick, asked about the number of ratifications obtained, because that will give an almost direct measure of the efficacy of the Con-
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vention. It is our wish that as many States as possible should be persuaded to join. We are reasonably confident that we shall be able to persuade more and more States to join, and we are not disappointed by the fact that only 57 have so far adhered to the Tokyo Convention. At the same time, we do not want to delay the coming into effect of the Bill and would look for a similar measure of international support as has been shown for the earlier Conventions when a satisfactory Convention has been agreed between States.
Several noble Lords, starting with Lord Beswick, said that to contemplate the Convention on sanctions next August is to take things at too leisurely a pace. The point here is that not only is widespread agreement essential but one must arrive in the end at a Convention which is meaningful and has teeth, and at the same time is acceptable to a wide spread of nations. There are very complex questions of international law to be considered by every State that intends to adhere to these proposals, and it is right that the provisions in ICAO's rules of procedure should be made to allow States due time to consider them. The point here is that, under ICAO rules, between the time when the Legal Committee reach their conclusions and the subsequent diplomatic conference which arrives at the Convention there must be an interval of at least six months. Much as we should have liked to hurry this matter on, we could not to any considerable degree reduce that period. We suggested, as I believe I indicated in my opening speech, that the Legal Committee's proceedings should take place a little earlier, not in January of next year but in November of this year, but unfortunately that was not acceptable.
LORD JANNER: My Lords, would the noble Lord say whether it is possible (I appreciate his point about the rules), in view of the dangerous state of affairs that exists, to try to get the rule altered so as to have a shorter period between the various stages?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, the difficulty is that one cannot compel States to adhere to the Convention. In other words, we have to seek a Convention which will attract the maximum support; and this must, in the nature of the case,

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be particularly so at a time when one is considering sanctions exercised over States.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I agree with what the noble Lord was saying, The point that I tried to make was, first, Whether it was at all possible to bring the August meeting forward. Secondly, let us not take it for certain that one must get a majority of the ICAO members to agree before we can put these sanctions into operation. I was suggesting that if we could get twenty or thirty of the major countries who are prepared to apply sanctions, that in itself would probably have a very powerful policing effect.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am not quite certain whether the noble Lord is suggesting we should do that outside or within ICAO, but I quite take his point. If we are doing it within ICAO we are still in the same position as regards the timetable.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, may I be allowed to intervene again? The noble Lord was putting it forward almost as an excuse—and he was not really doing himself justice because I know that he and his colleagues are striving to get this brought forward; and I pay tribute to them for that—that it is necessary to wait until a majority of the nations agree on the application of sanctions. I am saying that we should settle for 20 or 30 major States who could themselves police a thing of this kind.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, if I gave that impression I did not intend to do so. First, it is necessary to get the Convention, and then you have to get a number of ratifications in order to bring that into effect. Eleven ratifications are sufficient to enable the Montreal Convention to be brought into effect, Obviously, the more States induced to adhere to the Convention, the more effective it is, because the greater the number of countries that will apply it, But one has to say that there are court-tries who, though they have not actually ratified the whole of the Convention, may act along its lines.
The noble Lord asked about the extension of the Hijacking Bill to shipping, By a curious chance, the day after I spoke in this House on the Hijacking Bill a case arose in Scotland on this very issue, and the High Court of Justiciary in Edin-
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burgh gave judgment in the Cameron case. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wheatley, there said that he disagreed with the submission made by counsel for the applicants for leave to appeal against a conviction for piracy, that the Tokyo Convention Act 1967, and in particular paragraph 4 of the Schedule, superseded the existing law of Scotland (and this was the point at issue) and restrictively redefined it. He said that at the most these provisions were merely supplementary to the existing municipal law and did not supersede it.
Quite obviously, this reduced the urgency of having to deal with this, and the Scottish decision thus supports the view that the law remains undisturbed and that no legislation is necessary. All the same, the question is still under consideration of whether the opportunity should be taken to bring the law up to date and to enact the law relating to piracy in statutory form. The Law Commission are considering this issue as part of their review of the territorial and extraterritorial extent of the criminal law, with an eye to its codification. I hope that that answers the point made by the noble Lord, at any rate for the time being.
LORD BESWICK: Except, my Lords, that I did ask for a definition without undue delay. What sort of time span has the noble Lord in mind?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, what I said at that time was that we had to balance the desirability of getting this Bill through as quickly as possible with the desirability of including provisions dealing with the hijacking of ships. I said that the matter was under consideration, and that I hoped that legislation would not be long delayed. I am now saying to the noble Lord that it is not absolutely certain that legislation on this particular matter is needed but that the matter is being looked at, and in due course the Law Commission will doubtless report.
My noble friend Lord Kinnoull raised the question of the political safeguard of extradition, as he called it; and other noble Lords have also referred to the possibility that people may escape the net because theirs can be treated as a political crime. The point about political crimes is that those who have committed them are not normally subject to extradition. But that of course does not in

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itself in any way prohibit them from being brought to justice in this country. This would be a matter of the evidence in any particular case: if the evidence is available then the Convention seems to involve an obligation on all contracting States not to allow the offender to escape but to see that he is brought to justice in that country, unless he is extradited.
The noble Earl also asked whether there should not be sonic means of ensuring that severe penalties are imposed. I would say to my noble friend Lord Trefgarne that the sentences in the Bill are severe: a life sentence is a severe sentence. It is only for the information offences that the maximum penalty is only 10 years, but it is always up to the court to decide what the penalty should be in a particular case. I was also asked about the number of adherents to the Conventions. All I can say is that the Government have joined with others of like mind in pressing for wide support of these Conventions and we are continuing to use our diplomatic influence to this end. There is no particular number of States, of course, that would warrant our ratifying: we ratify on the merits of the case, and the same goes for other States. Once that number of States have ratified, then automatically the Convention comes into effect.
The noble Lord, Lord Janner, and the noble Lord, Lord Hale, made almost passionate speeches. I am not certain that I can find very much to disagree with in what they said, particularly in their tributes to the courage of the pilots, as the noble Lord, Lord Janner, has said, and in what the noble Lord, Lord Hale, said when he made a proposal for the segregation of pilots from passengers. This and many other suggestions for dealing with hijacking have been considered in the past, and scientists, both in the United Kingdom and elsewhere, are working on these matters. There are technical problems involved in separating the pilot from his passengers and there is, of course, the responsibility of the pilot, to which the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, has draw attention. There are also methods of hijacking and bringing pressure to bear in which the cutting off of the pilot would be irrelevant. The Government are acutely aware of the
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difficulties of which the noble Lord, Lord Hale, spoke, but we must not let them deter us from pursuing our course, and pursuing it with urgency.
The noble Lord, Lord Gainford, and my noble friend Lord Fortescue made further suggestions, with considerable emphasis, if I may say so; and these also will be carefully considered, although I am bound to emphasise once again the great responsibility, which is exercised very responsibly indeed, of the pilots themselves. I hope I have said enough for the Second Reading of this Bill; and with these replies, in which I hope I have answered most of the questions which have been asked to-day, I ask your Lordships to give the Bill a Second Reading.
LORD JANNER: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, would he be good enough to say whether he is following the line that the American representative is taking at present at the United Nations? It is a very strong line and apparently coincides with the view that the noble Lord himself holds and that the Government hold. Are the Government strongly supporting the plea made by the American representative?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, the noble Lord is, I understand, now referring to the line which is being taken in the United Nations. I am not in a position to answer that Question and I would only say that so far as the proposed new Convention is concerned, the United States and ourselves are working absolutely hand in hand.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

EDUCATION BILL [H.L.]
5.0 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND SCIENCE (LORD BELSTEAD): My Lords. I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. The Bill deals with two distinct topics. Clauses 1 and 2 and both the Schedules are concerned with the powers of the Secretary of State for Education and Science and the Secretary of State for Wales relating to educational trusts. Clauses 3 and 4 refer to student awards.

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The provisions dealing with educational trusts are new; the two clauses dealing with awards reproduce almost word for word clauses in a Bill which was passed by this House in 1970, and these provisions are concerned with powers which were first conferred upon the Secretary of State for Education and Science by the Education Act 1962.
However, the Department's powers for dealing with educational trusts are of much greater antiquity. The Department inherited these powers from the Ministry of Education, and the Ministry in its turn inherited them from the Board of Education, upon which they were conferred when the Board was brought into existence right back in 1900. But the powers themselves are even older than that, for they were first created by the Statutes which were enacted in the middle of the 19th century which revolutionised the administration of charitable trusts and in particular of trusts for education. Before the statutory system of education was brought into being by the Elementary Education Act 1870 the provision of education in this country was, it is fair to say, almost entirely in the hands of people who were in law trustees administering charitable trusts. In the context of this Bill perhaps it is sufficient to mention only the endowed school—the majority of which were founded by gifts of money to provide teaching in grammar—Latin and so on—and those schools, most of which we know as voluntary primary schools, provided by the religious denominations in the second half of the last century.
The Statutes passed in the 19th century to which I have referred did two things. They provided for the establishment of Charity Commissioners, on whom were conferred the powers of the old Chancery Court over all charitable trusts, whether educational or not; and in the Endowed Schools Acts they created a system for the reorganisation of the endowed schools, establishing for that purpose Commissioners with powers even wider than those of the Charity Commissioners who were subject to the Committee of Council on Education, which is the historical predecessor of the Department of Education and Science. To complete this background, mention should be made of the provision in the Elementary Education Act 1870 which enabled the managers of schools which we now know as volun-
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tary to comply with the statutory requirements governing the provision of education, notwithstanding anything in trust deeds or schemes which might regulate their endowments.
When the Board of Education was created in 1900 all the powers to which I have referred were transferred to it. It acquired from the Charity Commissioners their powers under the Charitable Trusts Acts in so far as they applied to trusts for education; it acquired from the Commissioners the powers conferred by the Endowed Schols Acts to frame schemes for the endowed schools and from the Committee of Council on Education power to approve these schemes; and it acquired a power to modify the trust deeds of denominational schools within the statutory system so far as this was necessary to enable the managers of those schools to comply with the law's statutory requirements. Basically, the powers of the old Board remain the same to-day. The Board and then the Minister and now the Secretary of State exercises the charity powers in accordance with the principles of the law of charity; the powers to modify the trusts of the endowed schools and the voluntary schools also fall to my right honourable friend for final decision.
When the present Government took office in 1970 there was a comprehensive review of Departmental responsibilities and this included the powers exercised under the Charities Act by the two Secretaries of State, and as a result of it the Government concluded that those powers, being essentially judicial in both origin and character, really are not appropriate to the role of a central Government Minister. The reasoning behind this conclusion was that, as for the principle of the matter, decisions to be taken under the Charities Act are judicial, not policy, decisions, and indeed at the moment two-thirds of charitable trusts are subject to the jurisdiction of the Charity Commissioners. There is also the practical aspect of the matter. When the law of charitable trusts was last reviewed by the Nathan Committee, which was appointed in 1950, I admit that it reported:
"…the educational endowments which would be effected…are so essentially a part of a single system of national education that their removal from the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Education would create chaos."
The Nathan Committee reported in 1952 and its recommendations formed the

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basis of the Charities Act 1960. However, we now have the benefit of some twelve years' experience of the operation of that Act and I submit that we can now see that in practice the administration of the Department's charity jurisdiction is virtually self-contained, and we believe that it can be transferred intact from the Department of Education and Science to the Charity Commissioners without undue inconvenience. The officials concerned will take their experience and expertise with them. There will of course need to be consultation and exchanges of information, and this will continue, but we see no reason why that process should not continue as smoothly in the future as it has done in the past.
The termination of the Department's jurisdiction under the Charities Act is the first and main purpose of the whole of the first part of this small Bill. In addition, during the review of the Department's responsibilities we concluded that the powers conferred by the Endowed Schools Acts were no longer required and that in consequence those Acts could safely be repealed. The powers under them are very rarely invoked and trusts of endowed schools can be modified either through Section 86 of the Education Act 1944 or through the Charities Act 1960. The termination of the powers under the Charities Act make it desirable to extend very slightly the powers exercised by the two Secretaries of State under the Education Act 1944, but my right honourable friend and the Secretary of State for Wales maintain their powers under the Education Acts even though the powers under the Charities Act are being transferred. We thought it necessary to extend very slightly the powers exercised by the two Secretaries of State under the 1944 Act to modify the trust deeds of voluntary schools and other educational institutions so as to enable their managers and governors to comply with the requirements of the law of the land. These three changes are made by subsections (1) and (2) of Clause 1 of the Bill. Clause 1(1)(a) terminates the charity jurisdiction; Clause 1(1)(b) brings to an end the powers exercised under the Endowed Schools Acts; and Clause 1(2) deals with the powers conferred by the Education Act to modify the trust deeds of schools within the statutory system of education.
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Clause 2 deals with a slightly different aspect of the same subject. Many of your Lordships will be familiar with schools provided by the denominations in the 19th century which are now in the process of being replaced by new schools or being transferred to new premises so that their endowments, and in particular their premises, become available for other purposes. Section 86 of the Education Act 1944 has made provision for the last 25 years to enable the diocesan authority concerned to apply those endowments for the purposes of other voluntary schools within the area of the same diocese. Section 86 did this by applying the Endowed Schools Acts to these endowments. Those Acts have two distinct features; the powers they confer are very wide—much wider indeed than is necessary for this limited purpose—and the procedure they prescribe is both elaborate and very time consuming.
Clause 2 replaces the wide general powers of the Endowed Schools Acts with narrow specific powers in the terms within which in practice those wider powers have been exercised. Clause 2 streamlines the procedure so as to make it more efficient and more expeditious, but I assure your Lordships that it does not derogate from the rights of those affected to know what is proposed and to make legal representations about any proposal which they might wish to challenge in the courts.
My Lords, may I finally draw the attention of the House to Clauses 3 and 4? Clause 3 is an enabling one which gives the Secretary of State power to supplement grants to certain students holding awards from local education authorities by paying them dependants' allowances in respect of any hardship which would be suffered by someone supporting a wife, or a husband, or a child. At present, these students may receive these allowances from their local education authorities, or they may receive allowances from the Supplementary Benefits Commission. This clause does not extend the present provision—it centralises it; and it will ensure the application of more uniform standards and conditions.
Nearly all students attending first degree and equivalent courses, or courses of training as a teacher, receive a mandatory award from their local education

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authority. These awards comprise fees, maintenance grants and supplementary allowances; for example, for extra attendance at college or on a vacation course. Included among these supplementary allowances are allowances for the dependants of a student. However, the qualification for mandatory dependants' allowances is given only if a man is married before his course begins and he is either over 25 or has supported himself for three years. If he is not over 25—or if she is not over 21 in the case of a married woman—or if he has not supported himself, in the case of a man, for three years, or has married after September 1 of the year in which his course begins, he is not entitled as of right to an allowance for his family.
The object of these rules is to ensure that the awards system provides no financial incentive to students to marry while they are undertaking courses with assistance from public funds, but cases are bound to occur where a student and his dependants will suffer hardship if he did not qualify for a dependants' allowance. I think it needs little imagination to see that such cases need by no means stem from irresponsibility. If I may give just one example, a man under 25, starting his course, may well have married and started a family during a period of employment, which did not happen to extend to the full three-year period, before he started his course. In 1965, therefore, it was agreed, and the agreement was with all-Party support, to amend the Awards Regulations in order to give discretion to local education authorities to pay allowances for the spouse and children of an award holder, where the normal qualifications for a mandatory dependants' allowance had not been fulfilled, provided that the authority considered that hardship would otherwise result. Once again, some limitations were imposed, and they were quite strict limitations, but there was a final safety net because some time previously the then National Assistance Board agreed, as a temporary measure, to consider requests for assistance for all categories of students who were not otherwise eligible for allowances for their dependants.
We feel that these arrangements ought to be replaced by a scheme which will ensure consistent treatment for everyone.
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The Supplementary Benefits Commission wish to withdraw from what was originally intended to be only a temporary expedient because benefit is normally given by the Supplementary Benefits Commission only to people—I think I am right in saying—who are registered for employment. Local education authorities are anxious to relinquish their powers because the interpretation of hardship inevitably varies from one authority to another and the authorities themselves readily acknowledge that this leads to different treatment between one area and another.
Thus, Clause 3 of the Bill will enable the Secretary of State to establish a scheme designed to ensure that hardship is relieved on the basis of common standards. The scheme will be administered on behalf of the Secretary of State by the Department of Health and Social Security. In due course regulations will be laid before Parliament giving details of the scheme. The regulations will specify the conditions under which allowances will be paid and will enable social security officials to assess applications and the Department of Health and Social Security to make payments; the allowance will as now be discretionary; it will be in order to relieve hardship, and will be designed so that it does not exceed those paid to a fully entitled student.
LORD MAYBRAY-KING: My Lords, will the noble Lord allow me to ask whether he proposes to include allowances for the children of unmarried students'?
LORD BELSTEAD: My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King, looks at the bottom of page 5 of the Bill, in Clause 3(5) he will see the words:
"In this section references to a person's child include that person's stepchild or illegitimate child and a child adopted by that person…"
The answer to the noble Lord's question, therefore, is: Yes, it does include that for children. It does not include the e partner in a situation where two people are living together and they are not married.
Finally, Clause 4 removes, for certain categories of courses, the power that local education authorities at present have under Section 2(1) of the 1962 Education Act to make awards to students attending postgraduate courses. Regulations will

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be made by the Secretary of State designating courses for which local education authorities will no longer be able to make awards. May I in a few sentences give the explanation? Prior to 1969, responsibility for postgraduate awards was divided between education authorities on the one hand and central Government on the other, and this certainly led to confusion. So in 1969, in agreement with the local authority associations, arrangements were made for central Government agencies to take over sole responsibility for awards in defined areas for postgraduate study previously made by local education authorities under their discretionary powers, as well as by central Government agencies. While local education authorities since 1969 have not been expected to make awards in those fields of study which fall within the general area of responsibility of one or other of central Government agencies, their power to make postgraduate awards has never in fact been removed. The local authorities feel that this puts them in an artificial position and they would very much prefer the removal of this power; and that is what Clause 4 is intended to do.
My Lords, although the two halves of this small Bill deal with two entirely unrelated subjects, educational charities and student awards, none the less I believe that they have this in common: both areas of the Bill seek to improve administration in the interests both of the administrators and of those whose interests are affected, and as this is the main objective of the whole Bill I hope that the House will agree to give it a Second Reading. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Belstead.)
5.19 p.m.
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for introducing the Bill in his usual charming and explicit way. I found the history extraordinarily interesting, and I see that the Department is learning. I remember a certain Bill which was known as the Education (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, and I was looking at the notes for my speech (which I retained) and I notice that I was told then, just as the noble Lord has told us now, that it was merely to centralise certain things and that it made no major changes. I learned the
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hard way that a Bill which has an innocent sound can resound not only in your Lordships' House but all around the country. So I am very happy that the noble Lord has not had the difficult task that I had when I introduced the Education (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. I will also not use the name which the Opposition used of my little Bill: they called it a "ragbag" of a Bill. I will say that I am delighted to note that the Bill covers two subjects.
In this House we always use the opportunity of any Bill, or indeed anything, to bring in matters which, while appearing to be directly connected, are not wholly so. I should like to use the opportunity to pay some tribute to the voluntary schools. In a period when sometimes denominational schools are under criticism I should like to say that they still play a very remarkable and very important part in our educational structure. As a Catholic, I will not choose one of the schools of which I am chairman of governors. I select an Anglican school where I had the privilege of presenting prizes a little while ago. I liked the description in the notes for parents on the school. It said that it was a voluntary aided school, of which there were three to be found in this particular London borough. The note added:
"This school is a Church of England foundation and its attitudes and teaching are based on the traditional values of the Christian faith and what we still like to think are traditional British principles. It makes no apology for this, and in an age when so much seems to be declining into disorder the school is determined to make a stand for those qualities which it still believes must endure."
I do not think anybody could quarrel with those aims and objects of the school. I found at the school itself that there was a very remarkable feeling and attitude displayed, by both staff and pupils alike.
My Lords, if we look at the Bill, we see that the first two clauses are, as the noble Lord explained, completely non-controversial. Indeed, the transfer of the educational charities from the Department of Education to the Charity Commissioners is in many respects an improvement, because it is always better to deal with one master rather than with several, whether it be in charitable matters or anything else. So far as Clause 1(2) is concerned, the Secretary of

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State, as we know, already has powers of modification under several other measures, and I presume that the current proposals have been devised in consultation with the various educational bodies concerned. The noble Lord did not say so, but I am assuming that consultation has taken place. Coming to Clause 2, I notice that in subsection (3) mention is made of "any teacher's dwelling-house"—and again I am asking for clarification. As the clause appears to operate only after the school connected therewith has been discontinued, I should like to know whether the sitting teacher tenants will be able to acquire their houses more easily or whether any difficulty will be put in their way.
Then we come to Clause 3, which removes responsibility for hardship allowances from the L.E.A. and places it where it should have been in the first place, with the central Government. I applaud this—indeed, I applauded the previous Bill which was presented to your Lordships' House. I think there may be a fine line drawn between illegitimate children and people who are living together, but I am not sufficiently competent to work it out. I wonder whether this provision is perhaps a sop to those of your Lordships who do not like the word "cohabit". At any rate, we shall no doubt discover during the course of the Bill's progress what is the general feeling on this matter. I have no criticism to offer.
Clause 4 clarifies an ad hoc situation in which, with few exceptions, postgraduate courses are financed by the central Government. I should like to know how this will affect teachers taking B.Ed. courses. Is their situation likely to be worsened? As we have heard, this is a straightforward Bill, and I wish it a fair passage through your Lordships' House.
5.25 p.m.
LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, for his able exposition of this short, largely routine but nevertheless, in its language, slightly obscure Bill. I suppose I had better declare an interest and say that at the moment I have an application up to the Department of Education and Science for the foundation of an educational trust
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which I hope will not be unduly delayed by the change of powers.
The moving of educational charities across to the Charity Commissioners is obviously one of benefit for administrative convenience; such simplification is always welcome. I think it is the more welcome because there are still many of us, including a number in your Lordships' House, who feel that the whole of the charities law is due for some revision, that the definition of charities is due for some revision, particularly with regard to such bodies as the Humanist Trust, and it may be easier to deal with this if the whole matter is dealt with by one body than, as it was, split up by two. I see that this whole change is happening rather more quickly than was forecast in the Charity Commissioners' Annual Report for 1971, and I wonder if the Minister can say whether this Bill in fact covers all the charitable trusts in the Department. For instance, the Charity Commissioners, in their report, say that they are not expecting the administration of libraries and museums charitable trusts to be transferred in the immediate future. Are these included in this Bill?
There is one minor point which arises from the repeal of the Endowed Schools Act. Obviously, it is basically a good step to remove from the Statute Book what is now largely obsolete legislation. But there is a provision in one of the Acts allowing school chapels to be exempted from parochial control; and I should like to know whether this Bill repeals that particular provision or whether provision for this is made in any other piece of legislation. I have not given notice to the noble Lord of this particular question, but I understand that it has been raised by some authorities at Church House, and therefore he can probably tell me the answer. If this has been overlooked, I think there is a considerable case for our doing something about it at Committee stage.
I now skip to Clause 4, though I shall return to Clause 3 in a moment. Here again it seems to me an administrative advantage to regularise the present position regarding postgraduate awards. I only hope that it is not going to be used as a weapon for regulating the postgraduate numbers in a way that has been foreshadowed by the leaks in The Times Higher Educational Supplement of the

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Secretary of State's intentions in the near future. Also I think that considerable care needs to be taken that, when there is only one body dealing with grant giving, and not a multiplicity of centres, bureaucracy and bias are avoided. Therefore, there should be considerable circulation of the people who serve on the appropriate grant-giving committees, so that there is a real wide range of views and certain establishments do not get into ill-favour for inadequate reasons. I also hope that the Department will take advantage of this opportunity to remind local education authorities that they still have responsibility for a large number of important courses, particularly those outlined in List B of Appendix 1 of Circular UF 45/01. These are not necessarily unimportant, and local education authorities need occasionally to be reminded of the fact that they still have these powers.
Going back to Clause 3, we again very much welcome the regularising of the position with regard to supplementary grants, which was very largely put forward, as the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, said, in the Education (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill of 1970, which fell by the wayside. I personally still regret the inability to allow for an occasional case, which may be a really hard case, and include a cohabiting partner.
I wonder whether, before the Committee stage, the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, could possibly satisfy me and other noble Lords on the kind of hard case that was so ably described by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, when he was Lord Chancellor, in a speech on the previous Bill on April 28, 1970, reported at col. 969 of the OFFICIAL REPORT. I am not asking the noble Lord to reply now. I am well aware that I have not given him sufficient notice I also think that this is a matter at which we probably need to look at leisure, and on which it might be right to put down a probing Amendment at Committee stage. In any case, I do not feel that we should cause genuine hardship to someone, or deny them a university place, merely because they do not happen to follow the particular mores which we ourselves, and I certainly as a Christian, follow. I think that this is the only thing of regret that I find about the Bill as such. We are of course still waiting
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for the Department of Education and Science to produce something really worthwhile for us, other than cutting down school meals, school milk, and other things. The whole mountain of the Department seems to have given birth at this time to a tiny little mouse, but at least it is a friendly and useful little mouse and we give it a warm welcome.
5.32 p.m.
LORD PLATT: My Lords, I rise quite briefly to make only two points. The first is a request for enlightenment or clarification. I find it difficult to understand what is meant in the Explanatory Memorandum by:
"… enable the denomination concerned to participate more effectively in the statutory system of public education."
I am sorry, but I fail to understand in what way they would do that. I became a little suspicious when I read the rubric to Clause 2 at the top of page 3, where it says:
"Special powers as to certain trusts for religious education."
I became perhaps a little more suspicious when I actually read Clause 2(4), which seems to me positively to encourage the continuance of strictly denominational education at a time when a very large section of the population—and I say this with great respect for the noble Baroness who has spoken in this debate—if not perhaps the majority, including many devoted Christians, would seek to discontinue this kind of teaching on the grounds that it tends to inculcate fixed attitudes in young children. We surely have only to see the lessons of Northern Ireland to take this quite seriously at the present time.
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, I wonder whether I might interrupt the noble Lord. Would he not agree that we describe ourselves as a Christian democracy? What kind of principles would he like instilled in children?
LORD PLATT: My Lords, I should like the Christian principles to be instilled into children, but not denominational teaching, which I think is something different.
My only other point has really been made by the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley; that is, to express the hope—perhaps "pious hope" would be the

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wrong wording—that the Humanist Trust would come in for reconsideration as an educational trust if these trusts are to be transferred to the Charity Commissioners. Here I speak without any interest to declare since I am not a member of the British Humanists Association or any other body, religious or irreligious.
5.34 p.m.
LORD HANKEY: My Lords, I wish to draw attention to a small point concerning the powers of local education authorities. In a speech on November 2 I explained to your Lordships the importance of a measure of international education designed to draw people together now that we are joining Europe. I described how the College of the Atlantic in South Wales has students chosen entirely by merit from a good many countries, and 70 per cent. of them on scholarships. The scholarships are given by Ministries of Education and other scholarship-giving authorities in many countries right across the world. In the United Kingdom they are given by the local education authorities. Unfortunately, it now appears that there is an anomaly, or at least, shall I say, an obscurity in British law, and that our local education authorities may not have the right to give a scholarship to a British student wishing to study abroad. Now that we are joining Europe I believe that this anomaly in our law prevents our local education authorities from playing their part as other authorities abroad do, however much they may wish to do so in occasional cases. I think that this is most undesirable.
I welcome this Bill, but I greatly hope that it will be possible to introduce a short Amendment at the Committee stage to clarify the position which I have mentioned, and to give our local education authorities the same rights to award scholarships as other educational authorities abroad seem to enjoy.
5.36 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I wish to raise one small point arising out of the introduction by my noble friend of this Bill. Before I do so, may I say how much I welcome the noble Baroness's eulogy of the Church of England school where she gave away the prizes. I can only say in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Platt, that there is a considerable queue to get into any Church of England school
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in the diocese of Chichester, because the parents, rightly or wrongly, think that they get a better education and a better degree of moral principles than they do in the non-denominational schools.
My point is that I am engaged at the moment in trying to alter the objects of an educational trust. I see that the transfer of powers from the Department of Education and Science to the Charity Commissioners is going to be from a day to be appointed. My noble friend said that there were various staff going over from one to the other. I hope that the people who are in the pipeline will not, as it were, be left balancing on two legs, with the staff in one place and the power of decision in the other. I should like some assurance from my noble friend on that point.
5.38 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I apologise to the Minister and the House that I did not place my name on the list of speakers. I regarded this as a routine Bill and did not expect the series of speeches which have been delivered. I wish to make just a brief comment on the part of the Bill which deals with the transfer of education charities from the Department of Education and Science to the Charity Commissioners. I regret that this opportunity was not taken of making the charity law much clearer than it is at present. It requires revision; it requires definition; and I should have hoped that this Bill might have been used, when this transference was taking place, for terms of reference for the Charity Commissioners when they are deciding what educational privileges should be given.
I want to illustrate that by what happened to the Humanist Trust, a matter which I raised earlier in a debate in this House. Unlike my noble friend Lord Platt, perhaps I should declare an interest. I am a Humanist and a member of the Humanist Association. That Trust, which was engaged solely in educational activities and was accepted for four years as an educational charity—was also accepted as such by the Inland Revenue—was suddenly and arbitrarily removed from the Register of Charities by the Department of Education and Science. When I raised this matter in the House, the Minister acknowledged that a mistake had been made by the Department.

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I am not speaking in a spirit antagonistic to the Churches. I have a profound admiration for what the Churches are now doing, particularly on the racialist issue in Southern Africa and in this country. The stand which the Catholic Church, the Anglican Church and the Free Churches have made under extraordinarily difficult conditions in Southern Rhodesia commands the admiration of even those of us who do not accept Church theology. Also, one recognises how the Churches are now expressing the Christian ethic in facing the problems of social inequality and injustice in this country. I am sorry that there are no right reverend Prelates here this afternoon. But I feel sure that, in the new spirit of toleration which there now is within the Churches, they would not claim for themselves a monopoly of educational charity or privileges which are denied to educational organisations not associated with the Churches. I very much hope that, as this duty is transferred from the Department of Education and Science to the Charity Commissioners, the Charity Commissioners will act in a fairer and more tolerant way to those who are not associated with the religious organizations.
There is just one other point that I should like to make in regard to the sale of redundant Church schools. Again, here, I want to acknowledge, as a Humanist, that many of these Church schools (I think this applies even more to Catholic Schools than to Anglican Schools) have an atmosphere of calm serenity which encourages quite a depth of culture, and I appreciate the contribution which that makes to the bringing up and education of children. But I would say to those who support denominational schools that we have now reached a stage where the segregation of children for sectarian reasons is contrary to the wellbeing of our society. My noble friend Lord Platt has referred to what is happening in Northern Ireland, where there is the appalling situation of children who have been brought up in Anglican or Catholic schools, both claiming to worship the same God, finding themselves in a sectarian conflict.
I have no doubt, despite the atmosphere which Churches can give to education, that we have now reached a stage at which it is bad for society that children
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should be divided in their education according to sectarian associations. I would just express the hope that, while of course the Catholic and the Anglican Churches have the right of compensation for schools which are closed down—though they should remember the contribution which the State has made—they will not use the funds which are thus created to continue in our society the segregation of children according to their sectarian beliefs. They have the right, as all of us with different views have the right, to seek to create their own atmosphere and their own teachings, but surely history is now showing that that should not be done within the State educational system.
5.46 p.m.
LORD BELSTEAD: My Lords, this short Bill has given the House an opportunity to consult on not a few matters in the last hour-and-a-quarter. The first question which the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, asked me was: what consultation took place before the Bill was drafted? The proposals embodied in Clauses 1 and 2 were in the consultation letter circulated in December, 1971, to all relevant bodies—local authority associations, the denominations. et cetera—and there was no criticism from any. The noble Baroness also asked me whether a sitting tenant would be in a better or a worse position under Clauses 1 and 2. Orders under Clause 2 do not affect the rights of sitting tenants. If one looks at the Bill, one finds that the relevant paragraph in the School Sites Act 1841 is reproduced, as it has been in earlier legislation. The noble Baroness asked me a third question about teachers taking B.Ed. courses, and asked whether they would be worse off or better off. This Bill does not affect the teacher training students who are already covered, so far as dependants' allowance is concerned, by Section 3 of the 1962 Act.
The noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, asked me about all charities, and wondered whether libraries and museums are included. I think the answer is, Yes, but before I sit down I should like to cover this point in relation to one other matter. The noble Lord also asked me specifically whether school chapels would still be exempt from parochial controls. Chapels of endowed

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schools will, in fact, fall under the Extra-Parochial Ministry Measure 1967, which enables a Bishop to maintain their existing privileges. That is the effect of the last entry on page 10 of the Bill. I was grateful to the noble Lord for his support, albeit limited, for Clause 3. He said—I expected the noble Lord to say this, and it was perfectly fair—that it seemed a pity that there was no ability to meet particularly hard cases, and he thought he might like to probe this aspect during the Committee stage. I should like to say that a Working Party of my right honourable friend's Department and the Department of Health and Social Security is sitting at the moment, and among other matters are looking into how the Supplementary Benefits Commission might be able to deal with the sort of cases which the noble Lord had in mind.
The noble Lord, Lord Platt, drew the attention of the House to the Explanatory Memorandum and confessed himself unable fully to grasp the meaning of the words,
"…to enable the denomination concerned to participate more effectively in the statutory system of public education."
This subject is covered in Clause 2 of the Bill. I think many noble Lords will be familiar with a situation where one has a voluntary-aided school which either closes completely or transfers. There, one has an endowment and it cannot be used for the specific purpose for which it was originally set up. It was for that reason that Clause 86 of the 1944 Education Act was drafted, which allows schemes to be made under Section 86, usually referring to several schools. My noble friend Lord Hawke will know a great deal more about this than I do, but very often a number of schools are put into what is known as a Section 86 scheme, so that the endowment can be used (these are precisely the words which are troubling the noble Lord) for the statutory system of education, but not in the school which has been closed. Section 2 of this Act streamlines, and I hope makes better, the old Clause 86 of the 1944 Act.
My Lords, I had the pleasure of hearing the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, on November 2 in the debate on the reply to the gracious Speech. The noble Lord has approached my right honourable friend's Department about the
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question of grants for overseas objectives in education. I have given the noble Lord an undertaking that I will get in touch with him between this stage of the Bill and the Committee stage, but the noble Lord is aware, I know, that one of the things we shall have to look at is whether his suggestion will change the scope of this particular Bill. Further than that I do not think that at this moment I can go.
My noble friend Lord Hawke expressed the hope that cases which are already in the pipeline will not be kept waiting. We will certainly do our best to try to see that the noble Lord is met on this point, but it is perhaps just relevant to what my noble friend said and to what the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, said if I finish by saying this. The noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, kindly expressed her approval of the Bill because, she said, it would be easier to deal with one authority (I think she used the word "master") than with two. I should like to make it clear that they are the functions of my right honourable friend under the Charities Act 1960 which are being transferred. The Nathan Committee, I think I am right in saying, reported that the functions of the Department of Education and Science for charities were of four main kinds. The Nathan Committee said that they are advisory, administrative, supervisory and what they called quasi-judicial. It is these functions, my Lords, which the Department has under the Charities Act 1960 and which are going to be transferred to the Charity Commissioners because, for the reasons I have submitted to the House, we believe it is right to do this. But we keep, as does my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales, our functions in relation to things which can be done only under the Education Acts, and not under the Charities Acts. I hope that in doing this we have the balance right, and I would ask your Lordships to agree now that the Bill be read a second time.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, is he not able to make any comment on the suggestion I made that the law on charities should be more clearly defined, as the terms of reference to the Charity Commissioners?
LORD BELSTEAD: My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord. I know that the noble Lord feels deeply on this particular matter, but I think it is fair to say that it is outside the ambit of this particular Bill. If the noble Lord would put down an Amendment on Committee stage I will do my best to give him a satisfactory and full reply.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
GIPSY ENCAMPMENTS (DESIGNATION OF THE COUNTY BOROUGH OF STOKE-ON-TRENT) ORDER 1972
GIPSY ENCAMPMENTS (DESIGNATION OF THE COUNTY BOROUGH OF ST. HELENS) ORDER 1972
GIPSY ENCAMPMENTS (DESIGNATION OF THE COUNTY BOROUGH OF PLYMOUTH) ORDER 1972
5.54 p.m.
LORD AVEBURY LORD AVEBURY rose to move, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the Gipsy Encampments (Designation of the County Borough of Stoke-on-Trent) Order 1972 [S.I. 1972 No. 1449], laid before the House under Standing Order No. 66 on the 4th of October, be annulled.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I hope it will be for the convenience of the House if we discuss these three Orders at the same time, so that we can look at some of the wider implications of the situation, not only in the three boroughs we are immediately concerned with but also in the surrounding areas and in England as a whole. Under the Caravan Sites Act, 1968, with which I happen to have some minor acquaintance, the Minister, at this moment the Secretary of State, has power to make an Order designating a local authority as one to which Section 10 of that Act applies, adequate provision having been made within the area of that authority for the gipsies residing in or resorting to the area. What Section 10 does is to create a new offence, which applies only to gipsies, of stationing a caravan within the boundaries of a highway, on any unoccupied land or on any occupied land without the permission of the occupier. That is a new
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offence, as I say, applying only to gipsies, and it is provided that fines may be imposed on them of up to £25, plus an additional £5 a day for every day thereafter that the gipsies remain on the site to which the prosecution relates.
First, I want to remind the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, who I understand is to reply, how originally it was intended that these designation orders should be made. At the time the Bill was going through Parliament, it was clearly understood by all concerned that individual authorities would not be given the powers in Clause 10, but that designation orders would be applied simultaneously over wider areas, or even to whole regions containing many counties and county boroughs. If I may quote Circular 49/68, which was issued a month after the Royal Assent, certainly that did not make this point explicitly because there was no need to at that time, since, as the Government explained, the implementation of Part II had to be deferred, or so they considered, in order to prevent the slight additional burden which would otherwise have been placed on local authorities while public expenditure in general was being curbed and hard bargaining was going on between the Government and local authorities about the level of rate support grants. Nevertheless, the circular expressed the hope that in the meanwhile local authorities would get on with the job of providing the sites voluntarily, and it said:
"The Ministers have repeatedly emphasised that gipsies should not be needlessly moved on from place to place, until sites have been provided for them. It is particularly important that local authorities should not drive gipsies out of their areas, to become the responsibility of neighbouring authorities, in the period before a countrywide network of sites is established."
My Lords, I emphasise the word "countrywide" because I shall be producing some figures to show that we are a long way short of that situation at the moment.
When, a year and half later, an order was made bringing Part II of the Act into force, the emphasis had already changed. In a new circular, Ministers said that they intended
"to exercise their powers to designate areas under Section 12 in such a way as to avoid creating a patchwork of relatively small areas where it would be an offence for a gipsy to camp. Such a pattern would create a difficult position for the councils of adjoining areas and a confused one for the gipsies themselves"

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So far, that is fine. I shall deal with the situation in neighbouring authorities shortly, and when the Minister comes to reply I shall be most interested to hear what representations he has received from those in the neighbourhood of the councils which are receiving these designations now. But the circular went on to say this—and again I quote:
"Nevertheless, it may prove justifiable in the case of county boroughs which have been under pressure and have provided 15 pitches"—
15 pitches, noble Lords will please note, because in one of the cases we are looking at this evening only 12 pitches have been provided—
"to make designation orders in advance of the adjoining counties being designated".
This was, I think, a very important change of tune—the noble Lord can readily see that—in comparison with the original policy, but it was one which might not have mattered much if the counties had been only a few weeks or a few months behind in meeting their own obligations. For a short time there would have been, it is true, this patchwork of relatively small areas, additional burdens on the neighbouring authorities and confusion among the gipsy community itself. But I think it is intolerable to create such a situation deliberately, knowing that it is bound to last for many years to come. Because, unfortunately, the county councils have been dragging their feet, and after more than 2½ years the progress which has been made towards meeting the objective of providing accommodation for the whole of the gipsy population of England is, I must say, absolutely pathetic. Yet some of the counties, no doubt encouraged by the Secretary of State's accommodating response to the application for designation by these three boroughs, are themselves applying for designation. I quote the county of Hertfordshire as an example. I think it is yet another harmful side-effect of the Orders we are discussing that they make it harder for the Minister to resist pleas for similar treatment by other local authorities.
The general position in England is that we have to-day, according to my calculations, at least 4,000 gipsy families. Originally, at the time of the 1965 survey, the estimate was just over 3,000; and it was accepted by the authors of that study that there had been a substantial degree of
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under-enumeration. Let us say that in 1965 there were 3,400 families in England. The estimate of the Department, I gather, is that the gipsy population has been increasing by 100 families a year since then, which brings us to a total of 4,100 families at the present time. That compares with a total of 2,469 pitches which the local authorities intend to provide. The noble Lord, Lord Sandford, was good enough to let me have a copy of the analysis which has been made of the replies to the circular issued to all those local authorities earlier this year. Your Lordships can see the enormous discrepancy between these obligations which the local authorities say they are going to undertake—only 2,400 pitches for the gipsies—and the 4,100 gipsy families needing to occupy that accommodation. But let us look at what has actually been done.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, can the noble Lord explain one point? When he is talking about pitches, does he mean a space within some sort of common in which one particular family is allowed to pitch? Can there be 10 or 20 pitches on one common, or is he talking about a location which may include many places?
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, I can explain that. A pitch is an area within a site that will accommodate a single caravan. We are talking about the space for one gipsy family occupying one caravan. The sites may consist of something between 10 and 20 pitches, 10 and 20 families. There are larger sites, but the recommendation of the Department is that the limit should be 10 to 20 families on a single site. I hope that that is clear.
I was about to give some figures of the accommodation that has actually been made available by the local authorities, as opposed to what they said they were going to do in response to the circular issued by the noble Lord's Department earlier this year. The total for all counties, county boroughs and London boroughs is a mere 824 pitches—which means that only 1 in 5 of the gipsy population has a pitch on which he can legally station his caravan. So we are forcing four-fifths, 80 per cent., of the gipsy population to break the law all the time because we have not compelled the local authorities to shoulder their obligations and get on with the job. That is the enormous difference which

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exists between what has been done by the local authorities and the well-authenticated need two and a half years after the Act was brought into operation. In these circumstances, I think that the Department should be saying to the local authorities quite plainly that no help will be given to any one of them in the form of designation until the rest of them "pull their fingers out". It would have a salutory effect if the Minister were to say that this evening.
It may be said that this is unfair to those local authorities which have already met their obligations; but I would point out that the county boroughs got off fairly lightly under the Act, since they had to provide space only for a maximum number of 15 caravans, irrespective of the number of gipsy families resident in their area either at the time of the Act or previously, and also irrespective of the amount of land available within their borders. Having dealt with the general position, I should like to come on to the particular argument in connection with these three boroughs. I would remark, in passing, that it is interesting to speculate how they came to be picked out for such favourable treatment. Perhaps the Minister can enlighten us on this when he comes to reply. It is possible to anticipate one of the reasons which will be given: that the Gypsy Council had agreed earlier to these particular Orders so as to give the procedure of designation a trial. If that is going to be one of the main points in the Minister's reply, as I suspect will be the case, I am saying in advance that it is a wholly spurious argument. The decision to give the Orders a trial, as I think was the phrase, was taken by a small committee and not by the Gypsy Council as a whole; and evidence is accumulating to show that it did not represent the true feelings of the gipsy community.
It is very difficult—and one must make allowances for this in considering the original attitude of the Gypsy Council—to ascertain the collective opinion of a community which is as mobile and as widespread in its dispersal throughout the country as are the gipsies. But, for example, Mr. and Mrs. Marriott, who are members of the Gypsy Council, have formally stated to the National Council for Civil Liberties that had it been pos-
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sible to ask all the gipsies in the area concerned, they would have been solidly against these proposals. Not only are the Marriotts and colleagues of theirs on the Gypsy Council of this opinion, but so also are the National Council for Civil Liberties and the Romany Guild, which has only gipsies as its members. With great respect to the Gypsy Council, I have found in several years of dealing with them that it is unwise to depend on what they say as the only source of advice. It is no doubt convenient for the Department to have only one organisation to consult, and I should be only too pleased if the Gypsy Council were to become more fully representative—and I believe it is making efforts to do this at the moment. But in the meantime there should at least be some independent check on the advice which they originally gave.
As an illustration—and I come to the first of the boroughs I want to discuss—I want to look at the position of St. Helens. Mr. Fred Cain, a gipsy member of the executive of the National Gypsy Education Council, claims that a survey in June revealed that as many as 48 families were in the borough of St. Helens, which means that, after designation, there would be 33 needing sites somewhere else in Lancashire. This figure of 48 may perhaps relate to the total number of families who use St. Helens over a period and not at one particular time; because it sounds a large figure in relation to the number there at the moment. But Mr. Cain is not happy about designation. Neither is Mr. Tom Lee, of the Romany Guild, or Mr. Peter McGrenery, the North-Western representative of the Gypsy Council. I checked with the local authority last Thursday and there were at that time 10 families occupying 12 pitches on the site. The local authority did not think there could ever have been as many as 48 families in the area. But there are divergent estimates of the use made of this site and of the number of gipsies who may be within the boundaries of the local authority but not actually accommodated on the site itself.
Why did the Department of the Environment agree, in the particular case of St. Helens, that they should be allowed to provide only 12 pitches when the circular that I quoted earlier said that no application would be entertained unless the full number of 15 had been provided?

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I have referred to the opinion of Mr. McGrenery, the North-Western representative of the Gypsy Council. He has carried out a survey, not only of St. Helens but of the whole area within which these boroughs are located, and the results show an enormous gap between what has been provided so far and the accommodation actually needed. I have made available to the noble Lord some figures which analyse the returns that he received in response to the circular and compare that with the results of Mr. McGrenery's survey. I will not go through all those figures but I hope that they are clear to the noble Lord.
If I may just summarise their results, at the moment there are 73 pitches for gipsies in the area. An additional 131 pitches are proposed, making a total of 204. But these figures have to be qualified. Out of the existing 73 pitches, 46 are on temporary sites, leaving in the whole of the North-West area, comprising Lancashire and Greater Manchester, only 27 permanent pitches. And when they have completed everything which they have told the noble Lord they intend to undertake, there will be 204 pitches. But from this figure there have to be subtracted 45 from the 75 which are given by Lancashire, because although this is the figure they gave in response to the Department circular they have no plans for providing anything beyond the two sites at present under consideration which have been approved by the Department. So that figure of 75 is not a realistic one. We finish up, therefore, with 159 pitches in Lancashire and Greater Manchester, whereas the survey undertaken by Mr. McGrenery identifies 415 families in the area surveyed, plus an estimated 110 in the remaining area which has not yet been completed, making 525 in total; and the provision would represent only 30 per cent. of these requirements.
The survey was undertaken with the assistance of three universities and one college of education: Lancaster, Liverpool and Manchester Universities, and Charley College of Education. Of particular assistance in conducting this was Father Bill Maxwell, the Catholic Chaplain of the University of Liverpool, and Mr. Owen Fagan, who is a postgraduate student of the university. They found that there were mainly four stress areas, and I should like to mention those briefly. There is Liverpool itself, with
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84 caravans on an area planned at Shore Street, Everton, and at Latham Street, with no water or sanitation, and over 100 children, with no provision whatsoever for education for the gipsy children and with no prospect of a permanent site for more than 25 caravans.
Manchester has a total caravan population of 49 families. There are over 100 children in these families, 17 of them on the permanent site provided—which is intended to accommodate only 15—and the remainder, 32 families, living in disgusting, cleared areas with no water or sanitation in Moss-side and Gorton. And the Manchester Corporation is adament in its intention to develop these areas and is trying to prosecute the gipsies who are living there as if it already possessed designation powers that are now being given to other authorities. The third area is Widnes where over 30 families are camping on derelict land, again with no water or sanitation and no hope of site provision from Widnes Council because they are not a county borough; and they say, as is perfectly legally correct, that the responsibility is that of the Lancashire County Council. The fourth area is Bickershaw, with over 20 families living on the edge of a slag-heap, again with no water and no sanitation and with mud 12 inches deep.
My Lords, that is the situation you have in Lancashire when the Minister is agreeing to make a designation order on St. Helens. I understand that the borough council does not intend to use the powers under Section 10, partially, until the adjacent authorities have provided facilities; but I think that your Lordships may see from the information that I have given that this provision in neighbouring authorities is going to take a very long time. If, in the meanwhile, St. Helens is not going to use those powers, what is the purpose of making the Orders now? Why not defer them until some further progress has been made in the areas that I have described? If, on the other hand, St. Helens experiences very little problem from unauthorised encampments and then only for short periods of emergency (as I am told is the case) which in any case would be exempt under Section 10(2), equally the borough does not need these additional powers which are being granted under these Orders.

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Let me make clear, my Lords, that I am not criticising the St. Helens Borough Council, which has done a good deal more than most authorities in the North-West, and was, I think, the first in that area to provide a site. What concerns me is the danger of the precedent we are now creating. It is bound to increase the pressure on the Department to designate boroughs with far less powerful claims, and it may indeed be some other authorities that I have mentioned which have not done their whack as St. Helens has.
I turn now to Plymouth, where the circumstances are quite different. The numbers of gipsies on the site at Plymouth appears to vary widely. This is because it is the only site that is very largely used for transit purposes within a distance of some 300 miles. It is very widely used by gipsies travelling through Plymouth on the way to and from the West Country. There have been up to twenty families on the authorised site at any one time, although it is designed for only fifteen caravans. The cost of the site was only about £5,000, so, as may be readily imagined, and contrary to policy, it by no means conforms to the modern standards laid down by the Ministry of Housing and Local Government in 1966, and supposedly adhered to ever since.
In Circular 26/66 it was pointed out that:
"Local authorities are obliged by Section 24(2) of the Act"—
the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960—
"to have regard to the model standards specified under Section 5(6) when providing caravan sites. The sites established for gipsies should not be inferior in this respect to others. Good site conditions may indeed be instrumental in raising their standards of living and behaviour."
I want to ask the Minister whether he agrees with that statement. Does he think that good site conditions may be instrumental in raising the standards of living and behaviour of gipsies? If he does, why did he agree to the designation at Plymouth which does not conform with the requirements laid down by the circular? In the light of that argument I think there is no case for granting designation to Plymouth, even if there
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were no perfectly general argument against any designation at all.
No doubt the borough would say that there is no point in having reasonable facilities when those that are provided have been wrecked by vandalism. This I believe is because they have also ignored and disregarded the advice given in Circular 49/68, that:
"On any site of more than a few pitches it is essential to employ a resident caretaker."
Without proper supervision it is quite useless to expect any care to be taken by the gipsies, particularly when most of them are passing through and are not occupying the site as their permanent residence. Again, virtually none of the children on this site actually attends school, and although this may be partly explained by the fact that families do not stay there long enough I think that the local authorities' attitude also comes into the matter. They appear to have taken no steps whatsoever to get the children to attend school, something which ought to have been possible at least with the three or four families using the site as a permanent base. Their policy in Plymouth is to leave the gipsies severely alone, whether it be in trying to get the children to school or to get social workers there to help them with their problems. That is the whole ethos of the Plymouth Council, not to do anything whatsoever which may impinge on the lives of the gipsies.
Again, my Lords, let me look at the position in Devon and Cornwall as a whole, from the figures so kindly provided for me by the noble Lord, Lord Sandford. According to the replies to the circular, 29 pitches have been provided so far, and the ultimate provision is for a total of 76. I must compare these with the number of gipsies who were present in the area at the time of the 1965 survey, because, unfortunately, I have no independent check on that such as has been provided by Mr. Peter McGrenery in connection with the North-West. In the 1965 survey there were 179 gipsy families in the whole of the counties of Devon and Cornwall and the county boroughs that belong to them. If one looks at these figures one sees that the existing provision is only 16 per cent. of the need identified in the 1965 survey and even when they have done everything that they say they are going to do, it will still be well under 50 per

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cent. As I have said, there is serious reason to believe that the 1965 figures were an underestimate. I think it is premature, in view of those figures, to think about designating any authority in the South West.
Finally, my Lords, let me turn to Stoke-on-Trent. A very good site has been provided, from the accounts that I have seen, costing £40,000. That is a figure eight times as large as the one that I quoted for Plymouth, so one can see that there must be some considerable difference between the nature of the facilities on the two sites. There is no question but that Stoke-on-Trent have met their obligations under the Act in full. But the problem here is that Stoke has a surplus in families. There were 33 in the borough at the time of the 1965 survey, and I am told that these days it fluctuates between 30 and 40. If this surplus over and above the 20 pitches is kicked out, there are no vacancies on other official sites in the West Midlands area to which they might go. Anyway, one can see that if there had been 33 families, as there were at the time of the 1965 surplus, that would leave a surplus of 13 families who would have to go into the neighbouring authorities' areas.
Reporters from The Times asked how these new powers would be used.
"There is no question, we were assured,"
says the article,
"of the law being enforced rigidly from, say, one minute past midnight on January 1. Only when persuasion has failed or offenders become persistent will it be applied severely. Officials say, 'There has to be a common-sense application'."
There is little doubt that persuasion will be effective when it is pointed out to a gipsy family that the risk it incurs by remaining on an authorised site is of suffering a fine of £20, plus £5 a day for as long as it remains thereafter. So we can safely assume that the surplus of 10 to 20 families will be exported to somewhere else in the West Midlands, and that those other authorities will have to try to cope somehow.
In the West Midlands (and I am going to give the totals from Lord Sandford's survey again) we have at the moment 50 pitches. The total provision intended is 216. This does not sound too bad compared with 183 families in the 1965 survey. One would say at a glance that
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they are going to provide more than enough accommodation for all the families in the area. But I am afraid that once again the degree of under-enumeration was extremely serious. Mr. Chris. Rice has sent me some information about the boroughs of Wolverhampton, Walsall, Dudley, Warley, West Bromwich and Birmingham, which comprise one section of this area. He tells me that at the moment there are 150 families, and it can go up to 300 at certain periods of the year because of the nature of the activities of gipsy breadwinners. So we have somewhere between 150 and 300 families in those six boroughs, and the total provision which has been planned by those local authorities is 116. That is nothing like enough.
Again, Mrs. Elsie Fisher of the National Gypsy Education Council has estimated that in the area of the West Midlands and Staffordshire, taking the new local authority boundaries as a whole, there may be as many as 600 families. That is the figure that one ought to compare with the 216 pitches which they say they intend to provide. Unfortunately, no recent survey has been undertaken, but the Gypsy Council's view is that the situation in the West Midlands is, if anything, worse than in Lancashire. As your Lordships can see, I am not so well briefed in the West Midlands and Devon and Cornwall as I have been in the North-West, and I should like to suggest that we consider extending the kind of work that is being done by Mr. McGrenery, in conjunction with the three universities, in the Chorley College, to other areas, so that we can get an up-to-date picture of the situation, bearing in mind the inaccuracies to which I have drawn attention.
My Lords, I am coming to an end, and I am sorry to have gone on for so long. I must, however, underline one common feature of the three areas that I have discussed which I think is of serious concern; that is, the failure of the county councils to lift a finger. Lancashire has done nothing but has scaled down its intentions since the last circular from 100 to 75 pitches: and even this miserably inadequate target, as I have explained, seems likely to be reduced further. The county council has proposed only three sites to the Department, at Wardle,

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Abram and Altham, and the Altham site has since been withdrawn, with the approval of the Minister, leaving a mere two sites containing 30 pitches. if I may say so, with great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, it is misleading to put down a figure of 75 pitches as the intention of the county of Lancashire when it is known perfectly well in the Department that they have no plans to go beyond 30, and that of those 30 only 15 are likely to be provided in the whole of 1973.
In the West Midlands, Staffordshire also has done nothing whatsoever; not one single pitch has been provided in the last 2½ years. In the far West, Devonshire has provided a mere 8 pitches to accommodate the 73 families shown to be in that county at the time of the 1965 survey, and says that it does not intend to do any more. Cornwall has provided a mere 6 pitches for 100 families. Looking at the comparison between what county councils said they were going to do in 1970 and what they now say they are going to do, one can sec that all over the country the picture is the same. For example, in Buckinghamshire the county council has scaled down its intention from 125 to 65; in Derbyshire it has gone down from 40 to 30; in Essex it is down from 75 to 68; and in Gloucestershire from 82 it is down to 28. So we are going backwards. All the county councils are reneging on their obligations and, I must say, leaving it to the boroughs to try to cope as best they can.
I have every sympathy with St. Helen's, Stoke-on-Trent and Plymouth. I do not think that they should be called on to carry this enormous burden. I think the answer is not to designate them, but to make the county councils do the work that they are obliged to do under the terms of the Act. It brings the law into contempt if the Department take no step to enforce it. I cannot help contrasting the situation as I have described it with what happened over the Housing Finance Act. If this measure had been the Housing Finance Act, there would have been a commissioner telling Lancashire that the committee was disbanded and had lost its powers, and that the Commission was going to do its job for it. But in the case of the Caravan Sites Act, although it has been on the Statute Book
676
for 2½ years, the Department are still sending out circulars, which over a period of decades has been found to be an ineffective device.
My Lords, I am under no illusion that the Minister would have withdrawn these Orders, whatever the arguments I might have produced. But this discussion will not have been a waste of time if he will agree to do three things: first, that he will use his powers of direction to the county councils to provide accommodation for at least the number of gipsies who were present in their areas at the time of the 1965 survey; secondly, that he will agree not to bring forward any more designation orders until there has been a reasonable opportunity of examining the effects of these three—and by that I mean at least two years, so that we can have time to study the effects in other parts of those areas; and finally, that before any further request for designations are entertained he will carry out surveys covering a whole area of the type which we now have before us in the North-West, so that we may see the extent of the need throughout the whole of that area. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the Gipsy Encampments (Designation of the County Borough of Stoke-on-Trent) Order 1972 [S.I. 1972 No. 1449], laid before the House under Standing Order No. 66 on 4th of October, be annulled.—(Lord Avebury.)
6.30 p.m.
LORD HOY: My Lords, I can assure your Lordships that I shall not take up more than a quarter of the time taken by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury—because apparently he took no notice of the words of the noble Lord the Leader of the Liberal Party who said last Thursday that some Members of your Lordships' House were not paying attention to the clock. However, I do not complain about that, because I was present in another place when the noble Lord introduced the Bill which resulted in the Act of Parliament under discussion. He has a long personal record of service to the gipsy community. I want to say that I was grateful to him when, towards the end of his speech, he withdraw what might have been regarded as criticisms of St. Helens and Stoke-on-Trent, because these two authorities have done a fair

677
job of work, and indeed compare more than favourably with most others. I am not competent to talk about Plymouth, but I know the other two local authorities and they have a very good record in social legislation.
The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, said in opening that the Gypsy Council do not always reflect the views of the gipsy community, but these three Orders, as I understand it, have been approved by the Gypsy Council. Perhaps the noble Lord, when he comes to reply, can confirm or deny that. If we are to have any comment about these three Orders to-night, may we also have some comment on the other three Orders, which I think were applied for and were objected to by the Gypsy Council since they did not find them acceptable? It may well be that since the three we have to-night have been approved, as I understand it, by the Gypsy Council, it will be difficult for the Minister to turn them down. However, it would not be a bad thing to have the reasons.
As the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, said in opening, some difficulties have arisen from the operation of the Act. As I understand it, under Section 12 of the Caravan Sites Act, 1968, the Minister may by order made on the application of any county council, county borough, or London borough, designate the area of that authority as an area to which Section 10 of the Act applies. A designation Order will only be made where the Minister is satisfied that the authority has provided suitable camps. In the case of county boroughs and London boroughs, the Minister may make an Order for the liability upon a county borough or London borough to provide accommodation for not more than 15 caravans. This indeed was the point raised by the noble Lord.
A point of contention as between the county councils and other boroughs is the strict limit which has apparently been laid down. I am informed that since the initial survey of gipsies in Surrey in 1965 there has been an increase of some 200 per cent. in the number of gipsy caravans, from approximately 50 in 1965 to approximately 150 at the present time. I am also advised that there are more than 15 gipsy caravans in the London boroughs of Hillingdon, Hounslow and Richmond, all of which boroughs adjoin
678
the county of Surrey. This may also be the case in regard to other London boroughs. In the circumstances, if designation orders are made by the Secretary of State in respect of these London boroughs the county council would expect, and indeed have been so asked by the Department of the Environment, to provide for an influx of caravans from those London boroughs. The problem in Surrey—and it will be repeated elsewhere—is greatly exacerbated by this provision, and the county council are of the opinion that the limitation to the provision of 15 caravans by the London boroughs adjacent to Surrey is inadequate and that they should be required to provide for the gipsies habitually or normally residing in or resorting to their areas, as in the case of other counties. This is the argument which they make.
Of course the county council accept the statement which has been made on behalf of the Government that they do not intend to make designation Orders piecemeal but wish to consider the needs of the areas in general and not just the authority requesting designations. I am bound to point out—and this reflects the opinion of many other county councils—that the Surrey County Council feel strongly that the first priority is the amendment of Section 6(2) of the 1968 Act. Only when that section has been amended, they feel, can the Government deal with the designation Orders on their merits and not against the background of an arbitrary fixed maximum of 15 caravans in any London borough or even in a county borough.
If those are the facts, I think the Minister might make this an occasion on which to make a reply because I think this is placing an imposition on certain county councils which they ought not to bear. Surely, if each borough accepts the responsibility for its own gipsy population this will not only relieve the county of its burden but the borough will be accepting something which is its own responsibility. If the figures are as the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has given to-night—and I have no reason at all to doubt them—quite obviously every local authority throughout the country has to go a very long way with plans to meet the needs of the gipsy community. This, I think, has become quite apparent as a result of the figures mentioned. I hope that when the

679
Minister comes to reply he will at least be able to make some answer to the question about this limitation of 15 caravans in any one borough and about the burden that it places on county councils. Also, I would ask him for an assurance that before any designations take place he will at least give consideration to an amendment of Section 6 of the Act.
6.28 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (LORD SANDFORD): My Lords, I think it has been a good thing to have a debate in Parliament on these first three of what will in due course be a series of such Orders, and I would certainly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, that it is helpful to consider all three together. I think it is fitting that the Motion which has led to this debate should have been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury. He was modest in expressing his own action over the Bill but I think it is true to say that it was his own legislation which he piloted through another place.
The Caravan Sites Act 1968 which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, introduced into Parliament and, as I say, piloted through, then received support from all sides; it adopts a broad policy that was pursued by the previous Government and which is still being pursued by this Government. The policy is that an appropriate number of proper gipsy encampments should be provided to take the place of the unauthorised sites which hitherto have caused so much complaint to the public and to local authorities on the one hand, and, on the other, have led to so much insecurity for, and such harassment of, the gipsies. So here we are on common ground. The solution to this problem remains exactly the solution intended by the noble Lord when he introduced the legislation; namely, the rapid provision of authorised and properly equipped sites to take the place of the unauthorised sites.
The Act places upon the local authorities a duty to provide caravan sites for gipsies. Instead of the gipsies being left to roam without any place where they can feel secure, it was recognised that provision should be made to meet the needs of this section of our population.
680
It is right that we should be concerned about it. But even if the number is, as was indicated in the original census, 3,000 or so, even if it has risen to 5,000 now, this is still a tiny problem in relation, for instance, to the rest of our housing problem, and it should be well within the capacity of the authorities to solve it, given the necessary will.
The duty under the Act was given to counties, county boroughs and London borough councils. In the case of the county boroughs and London boroughs the duty was limited to the provision of a site or sites with 15 pitches, and I come here to the point about which the noble Lord, Lord Hoy, asked. When the legislation was first introduced into Parliament it did not lay any statutory duty on county boroughs to provide sites, but this was changed in view of the fact that those were areas where many gipsy families now obtained their livelihood. The decision to limit it to a statutory duty to provide only 15 pitches was deliberately taken by Parliament as little as four years ago. It is premature to contemplate changing that. Because this limitation on the duty imposed on county boroughs was taken then, it is important to bear this in mind in considering the Orders which are now before your Lordships.
In addition to the provision which the Act made for local authorities to provide sites, provision was also made to strengthen powers of local authorities to deal with unauthorised gipsy encampments, the object of the Act being to do away with these since they cause so much nuisance and other local problems. Understandably, though, the Act did not prescribe that the new enforcement powers were to be given automatically to the local authorities that had provided the sites. That was a point that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, rightly dwelt upon. They can be given to an authority only by means of a designation order under Section 12, made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, and it is the first one of three such orders which we are now debating. A designation order cannot be made, however, unless my right honourable friend is satisfied either that adequate provision has been made by the authority concerned for the accommodation of gipsies residing in or resorting to its area, or that in all the

681
circumstances it is not necessary or expedient to make such provision.
These enforcement powers have to be considered, therefore, in the context of the provision of sites. It has been the firm policy of this Government—and on this we are at one with the view of the previous Government—that the problem is not solved, but rather aggravated, by moving gipsies on from one unauthorised site to another. In our view—and here again we are at one with noble Lord—the only effective solution is to provide sufficient authorised sites with all due dispatch, and this is what we are encouraging local authorities to do. I cannot say that I have any confidence that the issuing of directions to local authorities would be anything but counter-productive at this stage. The effect of our exhortations. circulars and discussions is that the great majority of local authorities are now endeavouring to provide sites, whereas perhaps a year or two ago some of them were under the impression that they could somehow avoid their statutory duty.
We have recently obtained from the local authorities details of the sites which they have provided or are proposing to provide. Twenty-eight new sites have been opened in the past two years, and the present position is that a total of 58 sites have now been provided. This means that the number of sites and pitches available to gipsies now on authorised sites is approaching double what it was two years ago. I acknowledge that this may not be enough.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, if you start on the basis of a small figure and double it, you still have a small figure. The point I made was that the sites that have been provided contain enough accommodation to satisfy only one in five of the number of gipsy families in the whole of England.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I am beginning to come to this. We are not starting with a very small figure, we are starting practically from scratch. This is what makes the problem difficult for everybody, because the only impression the public have of gipsies and their encampments are these wretched, miserable, unauthorised encampments which everybody sees around. If everybody knew what a proper authorised site
682
looked like, there would not be so much difficulty. The fact of the matter is that we have doubled the provision of authorised sites in two years.
Knowing very well, as also does the noble Lord, how difficult it is to find a suitable site, knowing the problems of allaying local objections—which are all based on people's impressions of unauthorised sites—and knowing the teething troubles that are involved in getting a site going well under good management, I take this opportunity to congratulate the local authorities that have provided the sites on what they have achieved so far. But this is not all. A further 106 sites are proposed, and of these 106 sites, the local authorities hope to complete nearly half by the end of 1973. So if we can keep to that, or improve on it, we shall be doubling again within the next year. That is to say, we are providing them at twice the rate. I fully acknowledge that there are still far too many authorities who will need to provide sites that have yet to bring their first site into service. Very few county councils have yet made the full provision that will be required of them—hardly any at all.
I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT, with the permission of the House, the full details of what has been provided, which I passed to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for the purposes of this debate. While we accept that in implementing the Act much remains to be done by way of site provision, a number of local authorities have by now carried out their full statutory obligations under the Act in providing sites. Understandably, these authorities now expect the next stage envisaged under the Act to be brought into effect; namely, the making of a designation order to enable them to deal with unauthorised encampments in their own area. Nothing is gained by allowing unauthorised camping to continue if it can be avoided without undue harassment to the gipsies.
The fact that the first three orders have only now been made shows the care and deliberation with which my right honourable friend and myself have approached this question. We need to be satisfied, taking into account the problems caused by unauthorised encampments, that the strengthening of the powers of particular local authorities to deal with them in given areas is justified. And we

683
need to bear in mind that other authorities can be expected progressively to seek designation orders once they have fulfilled their duty under the Act. About a dozen applications for orders are at present before my right honourable friend. I cannot give the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, the assurances for which he asks. Our approach, and our policy towards laying these designation orders, is to take account of all the factors relating to the area itself: the views of the Gypsy Council, of the local authority that is providing the site, and the intentions of the authorities around the site. All those views have to be taken into account before we make any other designations. But the main question we ask ourselves is: Will this designation order speed up, stimulate and encourage the provision of more sites, or otherwise? If I did not hold the view that this will stimulate and encourage the provision of more sites sooner I should not be commending these orders to your Lordships.
Parliament decided in 1968 that in principle there should be no needless attempt to change the mode of life of the gipsies. Unfortunately there can be problems associated with unauthorised encampments; and I heard at first hand only a week or two ago from a deputation from a Northern city of the kind of difficulties which confront a large urban authority and its residents. Properly equipped, supervised, authorised sites are the answer, and it is reasonable for local authorities who provide them to the required extent and to the required standards to look to be given the power to deal with the problems caused by any unauthorised encampments that remain in their area.
In considering applications for designation orders we have been in close touch with the Gypsy Council throughout. This has been, first, in the context of whether the sites which have been provided have adequate facilities, and, secondly, in judging how a designation order for a particular area would be likely to affect surrounding areas. Your Lordships will appreciate that problems both for the gipsies and for the authorities could arise if a patchwork pattern of relatively small areas covered by designation orders were created. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, rightly draws attention to this difficulty;
684
we are fully conscious of it and are anxious to avoid it. Nevertheless, weighing up all the factors, we decided that designation orders should be laid for Stoke-on-Trent, Plymouth and St. Helens. The attitude of the Gypsy Council to this is as follows. In January, 1972, this year, the Gypsy Council wrote saying that they had no objections to St. Helens and Plymouth. In June, 1972, the Gypsy Council issued a Press notice indicating agreement to all three sites. The Gypsy Council had changes of mind, but again in September, at a meeting of the full Council, they reaffirmed that they had no objection to all three designations. As I say, their attitude, though important, is not decisive, but on this issue they have on those three occasions expressed their view clearly and unequivocally.
In each of the cases before us the authority has provided a site which the Gypsy Council have agreed was adequate both in size and in facilities. Stoke indeed have exceeded their statutory duty, having provided a site which will accommodate 24 caravans. The Plymouth site has 15 pitches. There is virtually no gipsy population indigenous to Plymouth, and the site, which has not been full since it was provided in April, 1972, tends to be used as a transit site. In these circumstances one can understand the difference in the standards of the facilities provided and the cost of the provision.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, it has in fact been full. At one time there were 20 caravans on the Plymouth site although it was designed to accommodate only 15. I believe that that figure can be confirmed by the local authority.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I think the noble Lord will agree that if this is being used as a transit site, that situation can occasionally occur; but it does not alter the statutory obligation of the city. The noble Lord rightly dwelt on the circumstances surrounding these sites. I should like just to comment briefly on these and give your Lordships the information we have on them, because it is relevant. As to Stoke-on-Trent, the only adjacent authority is not the West Midlands conurbation, which certainly has its problems; it is Staffordshire County Council. The County Council proposes to provide sites of 20 pitches

685
each in Rugeley Urban District, Seisdon Rural District and Stafford Rural District. The National Council for Civil Liberties in their report seem to suggest—and I think the noble Lord rather took their line—that the situation in the West Midlands conurbation is relevant to Stoke. I am not sure that I share that view, because there are at least 20 miles between Stoke and the conurbation and bearing in mind that this provision is intended by Staffordshire.
The noble Lord rightly did not seek to do anything but commend St. Helens for the provision they have made, and I should like to join with him in that. I took the occasion to visit the site when I was in the North-West this last weekend and I confirm that it is of a high standard. It has not yet been fully occupied and it was not yesterday when I visited it. That is really the acid test. It may be that there are a number of families in the area, but if the site is meeting the requirements of the gipsies to the extent that it is not and has not yet been fully occupied, I think we can say that St. Helens have discharged their responsibility. But on the question of the North-West, the point I should like to make is this. Taking that region as a whole—and it is the one covered, to some extent at any rate, by the survey the noble Lord referred—to the census in 1965 indicated 112 gipsy families resorting to it. The provision proposed by the authorities in the North-West is 206, which is more than adequate for that number though less than adequate for the 400 that the latest survey has indicated. I find it hard to believe that both those surveys can be right, even if we allow for some increase on the figure of 112 which was arrived at in 1965. I think we must say that there is a split somewhere there and that the total provision of what is now existing and intended to be provided, 264, is not far short of what is likely to be required.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, I would mention that I shall be sending the noble Lord a complete analysis of the figures that the universities I mentioned have collected. I cannot do this yet because, as I have said, 700 square miles of the area have not yet been covered, although I gave the estimated figure of 110 families. They work out that the total is 525. The Minister may well ask why
686
there should be this enormous difference between that total and the 74 shown to be in the area in the 1965 survey. I can only say that there must have been a very serious degree of under-enumeration in that area at the time.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, it may well be. The figure must lie somewhere between the two. Because of that, I think that on some future date we may well need to have another national census. At the moment, however, I think we are at one in seeing that the need is to provide more sites with all due despatch. Certainly more sites are needed and almost every authority, certainly every county council, needs to provide more, whatever the precise provision in each particular part of the country needs to be at the end of the day.
The way in which the local authorities concerned use the powers which will become available to them as a result of these designation orders will be particularly important. The noble Lords, Lord Hoy and Lord Avebury, mentioned this point and I agree with it. Each of the authorities concerned with these orders recognise this and I am confident that there will be no precipitate or unreasonable action on their part. We are satisfied, therefore, that the right course was to make these orders. Far from signalling a period of unnecessary interference with the activity of gipsies, it is a further step in the implementation of Parliament's intentions in passing the legislation, and I myself am satisfied that it will be a stimulus and encouragement to all who still need to get on with the provision of more sites. It was because the Gypsy Council on those three earlier occasions thought so too that they indicated to us that they thought it was timely to make these designations. Indeed, not to make such orders where these are justified would surely discourage other authorities from providing enough sites quickly. As I have explained, the real solution to the problem can be found only by providing sufficient authorised sites, and we shall continue to do all we can to encourage local authorities to make proper provision with all due dispatch in their areas.
As I said at the beginning, it is a good thing to have had this debate, and I welcome the opportunity to affirm our continuing support for the noble Lord's

687
policy as embodied in the Act which he sponsored, and to support the policy which the Party opposite also followed when they were in power. The key to its success is the faster provision by all concerned of more authorised sites with proper facilities and with more security for the gipsies on them.
LORD HOY: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down may I put to him two simple questions? Does he intend to deal with the figure of fifteen which has been arbitrarily fixed and, if so, what does he say about it? Secondly, would he reply to the request on behalf of a county council that the Government might look at Section 6(2) of the original Act, to see whether this can be amended? Because this particular county council, at least, feels that unless this is dealt with we cannot deal with the problem as a whole.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I dealt with this point at the beginning, and I particularly asked the noble Lord, Lord Hoy, to take note of what I was saying.
LORD HOY: My Lords, I am afraid that I did not hear what the noble Lord said.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I am very glad to repeat it. I was explaining that the legislation, when first introduced into Parliament, did not place any statutory duty on county boroughs to provide any sites. The decision was deliberately taken by Parliament to lay a duty on the county boroughs and the London boroughs to provide fifteen. That figure was deliberately chosen by Parliament.
LORD HOY: My Lords, may I leave it at this?—that apparently in the working of it this has not worked out. All I am asking the noble Lord to do is to look at it to see whether in fact an amendment is required, because the very working of it may prove that it is unjust.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I hope that what I have been saying is clear that we are looking at this matter with the greatest possible care. Since the Act was passed a joint committee of the Association of Municipal Corporations and the Gypsy Council worked out model guide lines on what facilities should be pro-
688
vided on caravan sites, and what the ideal sizes were in the light of experience, and they have confirmed that 15 is a good figure for a single site. It may well be that some authorities will go beyond their statutory duty, as indeed Stoke-on-Trent have done in providing 24. But there is no indication so far that there is any reason to return to Parliament with any second thoughts as to what the statutory duty of the county boroughs and the London boroughs should be.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, will the noble Lord allow me to intervene for a moment? The question as to whether 15 on the one site is the right number is not the point at issue. The point at issue is this: will his right honourable friend have a look at the possible necessity of increasing the number of sites since it would appear that many more than 15 caravans are at present, and have habitually been, located in one of the boroughs?
LORD SANDFORD: Yes, my Lords. Of course we are constantly looking at this, but so far there is no reason to change the view that county boroughs, placed as they are, with the pressure on land should not be asked to provide more than 15 caravan pitches in their area.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord what he has to say as to the position that then ensues? A limit of 15 is accepted by the Department as being proper for a borough. But there are considerably more caravans, and they are then pushed out so that the difficulties and problems of the peripheral authorities to the borough concerned are considerably increased. As I understood him, the noble Lord has been making the point that the presence of these caravans on unauthorised sites ought not to be tolerated. May I ask him where they are to go at the present time?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, we have very carefully selected sites for designation after consultation with the Gypsy Council, the county boroughs that have provided the sites and the surrounding authorities, where we feel that this problem will not in these cases be particularly serious, and in going through my remarks I explained why we think this is so. Stoke-on-Trent have provided a site

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for 24 caravans, which is more than their statutory duty requires.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, according to the document which the noble Lord sent to me, the figure is 20.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, Plymouth provides adequately, for the reason that it is primarily used as a transit site; and St. Helens, as I have said, has provided a site which has proved adequate in that since it was opened it has never been full. I hope that is a satisfactory explanation.
I hope that these Orders will encourage the progress that I have been saying is

SITE PROVISION BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES AT OCTOBER, 1972 (October, 1970 figuresshown in brackets)

COUNTY COUNCILS

Existing

Proposed

Total Provision

Sites

Pitches

Sites

Pitches

Sites

Pitches

Remarks

Bedfordshire

1

12

3

58

4

70

(—)

(—)

(4)

(40)

(4)

(40)

Berkshire

2

21

2

24

4

45

Further site under consideration.

(2)

(21)

(2)

(21)

(4)

(42)

Buckinghamshire

1

25

2

40

3

65

(1)

(25)

(4)

(100)

(5)

(125)

Cambridgeshire and Isle of Ely

—

—

3

52

3

52

(—)

(—)

(2)

(32)

(2)

(32)

Cheshire

—

—

3

45

3

45

(—)

(—)

(3)

(36)

(3)

(36)

Cornwall

1

6

2

32

3

38

(—)

(—)

(3)

(58)

(3)

(58)

Cumberland

—

—

1

10

1

10

(—)

(—)

(1)

(10)

(1)

(10)

Derbyshire

1

10

2

20

3

30

(—)

(—)

(2)

(40)

(2)

(40)

Devonshire

1

8

—

—

1

8

(—)

(—)

(1)

(8)

(1)

(8)

Dorset

*2

47

5

54

7

101

*One site of 25 pitches temporary.

(—)

(—)

(7)

(97)

(7)

(97)

Durham

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Essex

2

28

3

40

5

68

(1)

(12)

(4)

(63)

(5)

(75)

Gloucestershire

3

28

—

—

3

28

Further sites under consideration.

(1)

(8)

(5)

(74)

(6)

(82)

Hampshire

—

—

—

—

—

—

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Herefordshire

—

—

—

—

—

—

Possible sites being investigated.

(—)

(—)

(3)

(50)

(3)

(50)

Hertfordshire

5

78

4

38

9

116

(3)

(48)

(5)

(57)

(8)

(105)

Huntingdonshire and Peterborough

(—)

(—)

1

30

1

30

Possible provision of transit site also.

(—)

(—)

(1)

(20)

(1)

(20)

Isle of Wight

—

—

—

—

—

—

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Kent

7

84

4

60

11

144

Proposal to increase pitches on 6 existing sites.

(6)

(72)

(3)

(36)

(9)

(108)

Lancashire

—.

—

5

75

5

75

(—)

(—)

(5)

(100)

(5)

(100)

Leicestershire

1

4

4

64

5

68

(—)

(—)

(4)

(60)

(4)

(60)

Lincolnshire (Holland)

—

—

—

—

—

—

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

necessary; that is to say, the provision of more properly equipped sites for the gipsies. I commend them to yourLordships as much as to the gipsies themselves and I hope the noble Lord will agree that they are now needed in thesecases and in these places if we are to press on with the implementation of his Act. For those reasons, following thisdebate, which I agree has been very useful, I hope that he will not feel it necessary to press his Motion.
Details of sites provided by local authorities at October, 1972, referred to by Lord Sandford are asfollows:

Existing

Proposed

Total Provision

Sites

Pitches

Sites

Pitches

Sites

Pitches

Remarks

Lincolnshire (Kesteven)

1

16

—

—

1

16

(1)

(16

(—)

(—)

(1)

(16)

Lincolnshire (Lindsey)

*1

15

2

65

3

80

*Provided by Spilsby RDC for Summer use.

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

(2)

(30)

Norfolk

—

—

—

—

—

—

Joint site with Norwich CBC proposed. Further sites under consideration.

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Northamptonshire

—

—

3

44

3

44

(—)

(—)

(1)

(30)

(1)

(30)

Northumberland

—

—

2

25

2

25

(—)

(—)

(1)

(24)

(1)

(24)

ottinghamshire

—

—

1

15

1

15

Further sites under consideration.

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Oxfordshire

1

10

—

—

1

10

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Rutland

—

—

—

—

—

—

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Salop

—

—

3

29

3

29

(—)

(—)

(3)

(29)

(3)

(29)

Somerset

1

8

3

29

4

37

(1)

(8)

(7)

(72)

(8)

(80)

Staffordshire

—

—

3

60

3

60

(—)

(—)

(4)

(80)

(4)

(80)

Suffolk East

—

—

—

—

—

—

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Suffolk West

—

—

1

16

1

16

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Surrey

1

51

2

58

3

109

Further sites under consideration

(2)

(61)

(2)

(60)

(4)

(121)

Sussex East

3

13

1

6

4

19

(3)

(13)

(4)

(19)

(7)

(32)

Sussex West

—

—

2

12

2

12

(—)

(—)

(2)

(12)

(2)

(12)

Warwickshire

—

—

1

16

1

16

Joint site with Coventry CBC.

(—)

(—)

(2)

(32)

(2)

(32)

Westmorland

—

—

—

—

—

—

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Wiltshire

—

—

2

42

2

42

(—)

(—)

(2)

(42)

(2)

(42)

Worcestershire

1

12

3

46

4

58

Further 2 sites under consideration.

(1)

(12)

(5)

(75)

(6)

(87)

Yorkshire (East Riding)

—

—

—

—

—

—

Possible joint site with Kingston-upon-Hull CBC.

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Yorkshire (North Riding)

—

—

—

—

—

—

(—)

(—)

(1)

(12)

(1)

(12)

Yorkshire (West Riding)

—

—

5

80

5

80

(—)

(—)

(5)

(75)

(5)

(75)

Total

36

476

79

1,200

115

1,676

(23)

(311)

(102)

(1,524)

(125)

(1,835)

COUNTY BOROUGH COUNCILS

Existing

Proposed

Total Provision

Sites

Pitches

Sites

Pitches

Sites

Pitches

Remarks

Birmingham

—

—

1

16

1

16

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Blackburn

—

—

*1

15

*1

15

*Already in use as temporary site.

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Bolton

—

—

1

16

1

16

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Bradford

—

—

1

16

1

16

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Bury

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(1)

(10)

(1)

(15)

Existing

Proposed

Total Provision

Sites

Pitches

Sites

Pitches

Sites

Pitches

Remarks

Chester

*1

14

—

—

*1

14

*Temporary site. Joint site with Cheshire CC proposed. Claiming exemption under S. 6(2)(a)of Caravan Sites Act 1968.

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Darlington

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Dewsbury

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Doncaster

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Dudley

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Exeter

—

—

1

2

1

2

Claiming exemption under S. 6(2)(b) of 1968 Act.

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Gloucester

—

—

—.

—

—

—

Contributing to joint site with Gloucestershire CC.

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Huddersfield

—

—

—

—

—

—

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Kingston-upon-Hull

—.

—

—

—

—

—

Possible joint site with Yorks ER CC.

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Leeds

1

15

—

—

1

15

(1)

(22)

(—)

(—)

(1)

(22)

Leicester

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Lincoln

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Liverpool

—

—

1

25

1

25

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Luton

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Manchester

1

16

—

—

1

16

(—)

(—)

(1)

(16)

(1)

(16)

Newcastle on Tyne

—

—

1

10

1

10

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Norwich

—

—

*1

16

*1

16

*Joint site with Norfolk CC.

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Nottingham

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Oldham

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Oxford

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Plymouth

1

15

—

—

1

15

(—)

(—)

(1)

(12)

(1)

(12)

Rochdale

—

—

—

—

—

—

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

St. Helens

1

12

—

—

1

12

(—)

(—)

(1)

(12)

(1)

(12)

Sheffield

1

15

—

—

1

15

(1)

(15)

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

Stockport

1

16

—

—

1

16

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Stoke-on-Trent

1

20

—

—

1

20

(—)

(—)

(1)

(20)

(1)

(20)

Teesside

—

—

1

20

1

20

(—)

(—)

(1)

(20)

(1)

(20)

Walsall

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

West Bromwich

1

15

—

—

1

15

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Wolverhampton

1

15

—

—

1

15

(—)

(—)

(1)

(24)

(1)

(24)

Yarmouth

—

—

—

—

—

—

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Existing

Proposed

Total Provision

Sites

Pitches

Sites

Pitches

Sites

Pitches

Remarks

York

*1

15

—

—

*1

15

*Temporary site. Exemption claimed under S. 6(2)(a) of 1968 Act.

(1)

(15)

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

Total

11

168

21

316

32

484

(3)

(52)

(16)

(249)

(19)

(301)

Exemptions: The following county boroughs have been granted exemption on the groundsthat the number of gipsies resorting to the borough in the 5 years ending May 1, 1968 was not such as to warrantprovision being made (Section 6(2)(b) of Caravan Sites Act 1968).

Barrow-in Furness

Hastings

Bath

Rotherham

Brighton

Southport

Burton-upon-Trent

Sunderland

Eastbourne

Torbay

Grimsby

Tynemouth

Hartlepool

Applications for exemption: the following county boroughs have applied for exemption ongrounds that suitable land is not available (Section 6(2)(a) of Act of 1968).

Barnsley

*Luton

Wakefield

Bootle

*Newcastle on Tyne

Warley

Bristol

Preston

Wigan

Chester

Salford

York

*Gateshead

*Southampton

* Site may he provided but application for exemption not withdrawn.

The following county boroughs have applied for exemption on grounds that the number of gipsiesresorting to the Borough in the five years ending May 1, 1968, was not such as to warrant provision being made (Section6(2)(b) of Act of 1968).

Birkenhead

Halifax

Blackpool

Ipswich

Bournemouth

Northampton

Burnley

Portsmouth

Canterbury

Reading

Carlisle

Solihull

Coventry

Southend-on-Sea

Derby

South Shields

Exeter

Wallasey

Gateshead

Warrington

Worcester

LONDON BOROUGH COUNCILS

Existing

Proposed

Total Provision

Sites

Pitches

Sites

Pitches

Sites

Pitches

Remarks

Barking

1

16

—

—

1

16

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Barnet

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Bexley

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Bromley

1

12

—

—

1

12

Proposal to increase to 15 pitches.

(1)

(12)

(—)

(—)

(1)

(12)

Camden

—

—

—

—

—

—

Under consideration.

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Croydon

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Enfield

—

—

1

(15)

(1)

(15)

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Greenwich

—

—.

1

54

1

54

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Harrow

—

—

—

—

—

—

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Havering

1

16

—

—

1

16

(1)

(27)

(1)

(16)

(1)

(16)

Hillingdon

1

26

—

—

1

26

(1)

(15)

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

Hounslow

*1

15

—

—

*1

15

*Temporary pending permanent provision.

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Kingston Upon Thames

—

—

1

15

1

15

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Merton

1

15

—

—

1

15

(—)

(—)

(2)

(15)

(2)

(15)

Newham

1

15

—

—

1

15

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Redbridge

1

16

—

—

1

16

(1)

(16)

(—)

(—)

(1)

(16)

Richmond-on-Thames

1

16

—

—

1

16

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Sutton

*1

17

—

—

*1

17

*Temporary pending permanent provision.

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

(—)

Waltham Forest

1

16

—

—

1

16

(—)

(—)

(1)

(15)

(1)

(15)

Total

11

180

6

129

17

309

(4)

(70)

(11)

(151)

(14)

(194)

Applications for exemption: The following London Boroughs (13) have applied for exemptionon grounds that suitable land is not available (Section 6(2)(a) of the Act of 1968).

Brent

Islington

Tower Hamlets

Ealing

Kensington and Chelsea

Wandsworth

Hackney

Lambeth

Westminster

Hammersmith

Lewisham

Haringey

Southwark

Summary:

Existing

Proposed

Total Provision

Local Authority

Sites

Pitches

Sites

Pitches

Sites

Pitches

County Councils

36

476

79

1,200

115

1,676

(23)

(311)

(102)

(1,524)

(125)

(1,835)

County Boroughs

11

168

21

316

32

484

(3)

(52)

(16)

(249)

(19)

(301)

London Boroughs

11

180

6

129

17

309

(4)

(70)

(11)

(151)

(14)

(194)

Total

58

824

106

1,645

164

2,469

(30)

(433)

(129)

(1,924)

(158)

(2,330)

7.7 p.m.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, if I am permitted to make one or twopoints in conclusion, I should like to take issue with the noble Lord in resting so much of his case on the approval ofthe Gypsy Council when I had explained(and clearly he has not taken it in) that I did not consider that the Gypsy Councilwere representative of the gipsy community. I asked the noble Lord whether he would listen to some of the otherauthorities which could have been consulted by his Department, instead of always depending upon the convenience ofbeing able to consult with one body. The noble Lord has ignored the fact that the Gypsy Council have now expressed theopposite opinion.
698
They have decided that they were wrong, and I believe that is because they have now had the opportunity of ascertainingthe views of their local representatives in those three areas. They have found now that the opinions they expressedpreviously were not those of their members. It is perfectly clear what I was trying to explain in my speech, and it seemedto me that the noble Lord rather ignored that point.
Secondly, I do not think the noble Lord gave us any indication of how he is going to persuade the county councils to doany more than they have done in the last two and a half years. It is just a pious hope, and the logic of expecting

699
them to get on with their duties as a result of designation orders made in county boroughs that are in theirneighbourhood escapes me for the moment. This was the view of the local authority at St. Helens; and it was very muchthe feeling of the officials on the council to whom I spoke that it would have a psychological effect on the county ofLancashire and on the boroughs in the neighbourhood which have not done as much as St. Helens has done. As soon asthey saw that this designation order had been made they would say, "We, too, must be designated, but obviously wecannot be until we have provided our 15 pitches"—or, in the case of the county, dealt with the gipsies residing inor resorting to the area. But that will never happen.
As I explained to the noble Lord, what is intended in Lancashire is so far short of the need in that county as to beludicrous, and they will never get designation. Knowing that perfectly well, how is it expected that they should even geton and provide the 75 which they say they will ultimately build as a result of the incentive given to them by the exampleof one authority? I wish I could have this explained to me. I should like to know the logic of the noble Lord's thinking sothat I might consider it carefully to see whether it should have a bearing on my attitude towards any future designationorders.
I am extremely disappointed that the noble Lord did not accede to any of the requests I made. They were requests whichwould have involved no departure from the policy of making these Orders which, with reluctance, I have to accept. Therewould be very little purpose in my pressing the matter to a Division. The noble Lord could have given me furtherundertakings about a survey or surveys which would have brought the 1965 figures up to date, in view of the obviousinaccuracies in that study, and compared the figures given at that time with those which I have presented to the nobleLord to-day. I hope at least that when I send him the figures which have been provided by the North-Westernuniversities and Mr. Peter McGrenery he will look at them carefully and will tell me honestly whether they do not indicatethat we have been working on the wrong basic figures from the 1965 survey and
700
whether this fact should not change his view about designating particular areas without first obtaining thoroughknowledge of the situation in the whole region.
It is regrettable that the noble Lord has not felt able to assure me that there will be a moratorium in this matter until wehave had satisfactory experience of how things will operate to see whether they produce the incentive in theneighbourhood which the noble Lord has claimed they will produce. I should have felt happier if he had said that, andaccordingly would then have said that this had been a useful debate. I have to admit that we have accomplished verylittle to-night, and knowing that I should not get support in this House if I were to press the matter, I ask leave towithdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
THE DEPUTY-SPEAKER (LORD MAYBRAY-KING): Does the noble Lorddesire to move the two following Motions which stand in his name?
LORD AVEBURY: No, my Lords.

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