Sitting of 13 March 1972

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  WALES

    Kidney Transplant Operations
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Secretary of State for Wales what estimate he has made of the shortage of kidneys for transplant operations in Wales.
    The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Mr. David Gibson-Watt): No firm estimate is possible. Currently transplant operations are taking place in Wales at the rate of about 25 a year. Some 70 patients are being treated by haemo-dialysis of whom about 45 are being considered for transplant operations.
    Mr. Dalyell: Is the Minister of State aware that the petition being organised by Mr. Gabe Wilkinson and his friends
    2
    is of interest far wider in the United Kingdom than Wales? Will the hon. Gentleman use his influence to look at the petition and perhaps use his influence in the Cabinet with a view to amending the Human Tissue Act?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: My right hon. and learned Friend will consider the petition when it is to hand. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for telling us about it.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the Renal Transplantation Bill, in the last days of the last Parliament, failed by only a small margin to reach the Statute Book? Will he advise his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services of the importance of that aspect for dealing with this problem?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: Yes, but we take the view that legislation is not the right way to tackle this difficult and sensitive subject. In our view, persuasion and education are the better courses to pursue.
    Mr. George Thomas: Is the Minister of State aware that Wales has been leading the field in this matter and has a very good record? Is the hon. Gentleman further aware that the Government must show greater interest in getting enough people to be available for kidney transplants? The petition is receiving massive support in the Principality. I hope that we can expect as much from the Government.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: That is true. We are considering whether an effective and acceptable donor recruitment scheme can be devised.

    Council Housing (Sale)
    Mr. Roy Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list those local authorities in Wales which sold council houses in the past 12 months showing how many houses were involved with each respective local authority.
    Mr. McBrideasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will now announce the total sales of council houses and flats in Wales from 1st July, 1970, to the nearest convenient date, naming the local authorities which have agreed to sell such houses, with the number of such houses sold by local authorities which have agreed to sell houses or flats and the local authorities which have decided not to sell their houses or flats.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I have been notified of the sale of 642 council dwellings between 1st July, 1970, and 31st January, 1972; 548 were sold during the last twelve months of that period. Details will be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Local authorities are not required to inform me of their policies on the sale of council houses.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the number of local authorities

    Local Authority

    Built pre-war

    Built post-war

    Total

    Total

    Grand Total

    1.7.70–31.1.71

    1.2.71–31.1.72

    1.7.70–31.1.71

    1.2.71–31.1.72

    1.7.70–31.1.71

    1.2.71–31.1.72

    1.7.70–31.1.72

    Brecknock RDC

    …

    —

    2

    —

    18

    —

    20

    20

    Crickhowell RDC

    …

    —

    —

    —

    3

    —

    3

    3

    Aberystwyth RDC

    …

    1

    1

    —

    —

    1

    1

    2

    Burry Port UDC

    …

    —

    1

    5

    1

    5

    2

    7

    Flint BC

    …

    —

    2

    —

    —

    —

    2

    2

    Rhyl UDC

    …

    1

    1

    —

    3

    1

    4

    5

    Cardiff CBC

    …

    8

    61

    33

    171

    41

    232

    273

    Caerphilly UDC

    …

    2

    2

    —

    —

    2

    2

    4

    Maesteg UDC

    …

    1

    —

    1

    1

    2

    1

    3

    Mountain Ash UDC

    …

    —

    1

    —

    —

    —

    1

    1

    Penarth UDC

    …

    —

    4

    1

    6

    1

    10

    11

    Cowbridge RDC

    …

    2

    —

    2

    1

    4

    1

    5

    Gower RDC

    …

    —

    1

    —

    1

    —

    2

    2

    Neath RDC

    …

    10

    22

    —

    —

    10

    22

    32

    Pontardawe RDC

    …

    —

    —

    5

    4

    5

    4

    9

    Barmouth UDC

    …

    —

    2

    1

    2

    1

    4

    5

    Dolgellau RDC

    …

    —

    5

    1

    —

    1

    5

    6

    Newport CBC

    …

    —

    —

    12

    199

    12

    199

    211

    Abergavenny BC

    …

    —

    1

    —

    —

    —

    1

    1

    Abertillery UDC

    …

    2

    1

    —

    —

    2

    —

    2

    Blaenavon UDC

    …

    1

    —

    —

    —

    1

    —

    1

    selling council houses has now been reduced by at least one due to the recent decision of the Newport Borough Council? Is the hon. Gentleman aware, further, that that authority came to the conclusion that it was not economic to sell council houses for £3,000 and to build new ones for £6,000, especially with more than 2,000 families on the waiting list, many of them in a desperate plight?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: The decision whether to sell houses rests with individual councils. Wales is well known as a land of home-owners. More than 50 per cent. of our people own their homes, and the present Government are in favour of extending that.
    Mr. McBride: Is the Minister of State aware that a council house in South Wales was offered last week at £4,500, the offer being tenable for only three months? Is not this an exorbitant price for a time-depreciated asset? Is the hon. Gentleman further aware that uncontrolled sales of council houses do not help waiting lists but create problems of resale abuses? It is socially wrong. Surely the Government should do something about it.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: Those are the hon. Gentleman's views. But the view of the Government is that the sale of council houses should be encouraged. It is up to councils to take their own line on this.
    Following are the details:

    Local Authority

    Built pre-war

    Built post-war

    Total

    Total

    Grand Total

    1.1.70–31.1.71

    1.2.71–31.1.72

    1.1.70–31.1.71

    1.2.71–31.1.72

    1.7.70–31.1.71

    1.2.71–31.1.72

    1.7.70–31.1.72

    Nantyglo and Blaina UDC

    —

    —

    —

    1

    —

    1

    1

    Abergavenny RDC

    —

    —

    —

    2

    —

    2

    2

    Magor and St. Mellons RDC

    2

    1

    1

    11

    3

    12

    15

    Monmouth RDC

    —

    1

    —

    —

    —

    1

    1

    Haverfordwest BC

    —

    3

    —

    13

    —

    16

    16

    Pembroke RDC

    —

    —

    1

    —

    1

    —

    1

    Painscastle RDC

    1

    —

    —

    —

    1

    —

    1

    31

    111

    63

    437

    94

    548

    642

    Number of local authorities … … … 28

    Kinmel Camp
    Sir A. Myerasked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans his Department has for the use of Kinmel Camp when the Ministry of Defence ceases its activities there.
    The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Thomas): I understand that no final decision has been taken to close the camp.
    Sir A. Meyer: Will my right hon. and learned Friend bear in mind that this camp provides employment for a great many civilians locally? It is extremely well-equipped. If the Ministry of Defence decides that it does not want it, it could serve either for retraining purposes or in connection with the raising of the school leaving age.
    Mr. Thomas: As I said to my hon. Friend, no final decision has been taken. The matter is under review. If a decision is taken to close the camp, it will be offered for other purposes.

    Schools (Official Visits)
    Mr. Barry Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Wales how many schools he proposes to visit officially from April to December, 1972.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: As many as I can.
    Mr. Jones: I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that reply. Does he agree that his record of school visiting in 1971 was, to say the least, paltry in that he visited only five schools during that year? Secondly, in any visits that the right hon. and learned Gentleman makes this year will he promise to go to as many nursery school units as possible and urge his Cabinet colleagues to
    provide more nursery schools for children in Wales?
    Mr. Thomas: Last year I visited a very wide range of schools: nursery, primary, special, and two comprehensive schools. It is not the number of schools but the range which matters. On the second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, he will recall the reply which I gave him a fortnight ago.

    Regional Employment Premium
    Mr. Roderickasked the Secretary of State for Wales by what methods he intends to estimate the effects of the withdrawal of the regional employment premium in Wales.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: The Government will assess this in the context of other regional measures.
    Mr. Roderick: Is the Secretary of State telling us that he has made no assessement of the likely effects of abandoning this policy? Does he share the concern of the Development Corporation of Wales and the Welsh Council about its likely abandonment?
    Mr. Thomas: I am fully aware that representations have been made about R.E.P. The hon. Gentleman knows that these and other matters will be taken into account in our review of regional strategy.
    Mr. Kinnock: Is not that a very vague answer after 20 months of Tory Government and after the production of an excellent document by the Welsh Council which had both criticism to make of the withdrawal of R.E.P. and, indeed, some useful suggestions about its replacement? Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman turned his mind towards the suggestion of a tax-related premium which would

    7
    assist with the employment of labour in Wales?
    Mr. Thomas: The hon. Gentleman knows that a review of regional policy is going on at the moment and that these and other matters and representations will be taken into consideration.

    Disabled Persons (Training)
    Mr. Probertasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will agree to the issuing of vehicles for those with some, though severely limited, walking ability if they are needed to take the occupants to a course of training to become sufficiently efficient to take on a job.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: This matter will fall within the ambit of the inquiry into the needs of those who are immobilised by severe disablement which was announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services on 21st February.
    Mr. Probert: Does the Minister of State agree that the present ruling is grossly unfair, particularly in the case which is now before him concerning a young man who has suffered the amputation of a leg and arm on the same side of the body who is anxious to equip himself to take a full part in society by becoming fully employed and yet is debarred from assistance because of a bureaucratic ruling that he is mobile? How does this bureaucratic ruling envisage this young man, for example, getting on or off a bus or taking short walks without acute discomfort? Knowing the hon. Gentleman's sympathy for this type of person, may I ask him to have another sympathetic look at the matter?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the way he put his question. He refers to a letter which he wrote to me about a constituent in Penrhiwceiber on 6th March. I shall be sending him a reply within the next few days.

    "Wales: Employment and the Economy"
    Mr. Alec Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Wales what action he pro poses to implement the proposals contained in the Welsh Council's recent publication "Wales: Employment and the Economy".
    Mr. Peter Thomas: As I made clear in the course of the debate on unemployment on 9th March, these proposals will be studied carefully.
    Mr. Jones: Is the Secretary of State aware that this publication contains 16 recommendations, some advocating a return to the policies of the last Government and some new policies, designed to reduce unemployment in Wales? Will he now tell us whether he or the Government have yet reached any conclusions on the report; if not, why not; and when we are to have a real statement from him on it?
    Mr. Peter Thomas: The recommendations of the Welsh Council were many and varied. The first was the continuation of the present reflationary policies of this Government. The Council's report has only recently been published and it will be looked at in the context of budgetary measures and, indeed, our review of regional policy.
    Mr. George Thomas: Will the Secretary of State tell us the date on which this report reached the Welsh Office, how long he has been considering it and whether he will arrange, as a matter of urgency, to inform the House and, therefore, the people of Wales what credence the Government intend to give to the report of the Welsh Council?
    Mr. Peter Thomas: That is a surprising question from an ex-Secretary of State, because he knows that the Welsh Council is a body to advise me. The contents of the report were known to me before it was published. The Welsh Council asked whether I would agree to its publication and it was published because I agreed.

    Coal Industry Dispute (School Closures)
    Mr. Colemanasked the Secretary of State for Wales how many schools in Wales were closed due to a shortage of coal during the recent strike in the mining industry; and how many children were affected by these closures.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: The largest number of schools closed at any one time during the strike is estimated to have been 228, affecting about 90,000 children.
    Mr. Coleman: Is the Secretary of State aware that in some Welsh secondary

    9
    schools pupils have been deprived of their education for as much as four weeks during this period? Is not this a further example of the disastrous tenure at No. 10 Downing Street of the present Prime Minister during which time 1½ million people have been deprived of their employment, children have been deprived of their free school milk and, it seems, the British people will be deprived of their sovereignty too?
    Mr. Thomas: It is a further example of hardship which is bound to arise when there is a strike of that nature.
    Mr. Gower: Is it not a fact that, at any rate in South Wales, many local authorities have attempted to help the coal industry by using coal central heating, and so on, and to that extent they have made schools more susceptible during such a strike?
    Mr. Thomas: That is perfectly true. Those authorities which were dependent on coal for heating schools were the most vulnerable during the strike.
    Mr. Fred Evans: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman ignore the question by his hon. Friend the Member for Barry (Mr. Gower), which is another disguised attempt on the part of hon. Gentlemen on the Government side to try to inflict their venom and malice on the miners, because they were beaten by them, by inciting organisations to abandon the use of coal? In the interests of the people of Wales and in the interest of preventing a further massive increase in unemployment, will he urge upon his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry that this kind of venom has to stop and that, in any policy for fuel and power, coal must have a major place, as otherwise Wales will suffer bitterly?
    Mr. Thomas: I cannot possibly ignore my hon. Friend's question. There was no venom in it. My hon. Friend asked a factual question. It was perfectly true and I agreed with him.

    Sixth Formers
    Mr. Gowerasked the Secretary of State for Wales how many pupils were in the sixth forms of Welsh schools at the latest convenient date; and how this figure compares with the number 10 years ago.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: In January, 1971, there were 16,625 sixth form pupils in maintained Welsh secondary schools compared with 9,547 pupils in January, 1961.
    Mr. Gower: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that that is a most encouraging figure? As the sixth form in some schools is a particular glory of the system of State education, will he always keep this matter under careful examination?
    Mr. Thomas: Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend. In 1971 53 per cent. of 15-year-old pupils stayed on at school beyond the statutory school leaving age compared with 40 per cent. in 1961.
    Mr. Roderick: In view of the Secretary of State's support for the policy of the Secretary of State for Education and Science to restrict building to primary schools, may I ask whether he expects this expansion to continue; or is he relying on youth unemployment to be the recruiting sergeant?
    Mr. Thomas: I cannot understand the hon. Gentleman's question. My policy has been to increase building, in particular, primary schools. Indeed, there has been a considerable increase in school building since I became Secretary of State.

    Mid-Wales
    Mr. Elystan Morganasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will now extend the remit of the Mid-Wales Development Corporation to include other growth towns in Mid-Wales.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave him on 31st January.—[Vol. 830, c. 11.]
    Mr. Morgan: Does not the Secretary of State agree that that reply was singularly unhelpful? It is obvious that the Government have no policy for the development of mid-Wales. With the reorganisation of local government, the Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association will be split among three counties and in most of the towns there will be no body responsible for development. There should be an extension of the corporation under Section 1

    11
    of the New Towns Act, 1965, or there will be no development at all.
    Mr. Thomas: I disagree with the hon. Gentleman that my reply was not helpful. If he does me the courtesy of looking at the reply that I gave on 31st January, he will find not only that it was helpful but that it set out the varied and important policies being pursued by the Government. As to the other part of his question, I realise that the proposed reorganisation of local government will have an effect on the Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association but I do not accept that the creation of strong local authority units will inhibit the development of industry in Mid-Wales; rather the contrary.

    Farm Price Review
    Mr. Nicholas Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the capital injection into Welsh agriculture consequent upon the Price Review.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: The net value to Welsh farmers of the measures taken following the 1972 Annual Review is of the order of £4 million to £5 million. This will provide a substantial cash injection to encourage further investment and greater production.
    Mr. Edwards: May I congratulate my hon. Friend on a review that will increase the pace of expansion and be of particular benefit to Welsh livestock producers without putting up the price of food in the shops? Can my hon. Friend say specifically what effect he thinks the review will have on the farm improvement scheme?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he has said. It is much the best review that we have had for many years, and it will be very well received by Welsh farmers. Improvement grants are already running at a good figure and we believe that as a result of the review improvements will increase even further.
    Mr. Elystan Morgan: Can the hon. Gentleman say what part of the £20 million cut in fertilisers will apply to Wales and whether any specific studies were made of the special needs of Wales with its thin, leached, sour soils before this decision about fertilisers was made in the Price Review?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: The answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question is about £1 million, or just over it, but at the same time, as my original answer showed, an increase in net income of £4 million to £5 million is very considerable, indeed. The answer to the hon. Gentleman's last question is that our soils are in many parts shallow and poor but we believe that this review favours the livestock part of the industry very much indeed.

    Rural Wales
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales what further policies he has in mind for rural Wales.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: The Government's policies are already designed to bring about continuing progress in the rural areas of Wales.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the Secretary of State recall that when the Government decided to dismantle rural development boards about 20 months ago a firm undertaking was given that a new policy for the rural areas would be substituted? Will he be good enough to tell the House when the new policy will be announced?
    Mr. Thomas: As I mentioned to the right hon. Gentleman's hon. Friend, I announced in the Welsh Grand Committee the Government's policy for mid-Wales. As to rural Wales, Government policies relating to agriculture, tourism, roads, water, mineral exploration, and so on, have all had positive effects on those areas.

    Statutory Bodies (Nominations)
    Mr. Johnasked the Secretary of State for Wales how many statutory bodies there are in Wales filled in whole or in part by his nominations.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: Fifty-eight operating solely in Wales, including 10 for which I have a shared responsibility.
    Mr. John: Does not that answer encourage the right hon. and learned Gentleman to devote some thought during the pre-Crowther period to how these nominated bodies can be brought under democratic control?
    Mr. Thomas: Many of the bodies which I have mentioned consist largely of members appointed by local authorities.
    Mr. Kinnock: Will the Secretary of State appreciate that one of the bodies which comes into this question is the Welsh Council? When so many busy men are giving so much valuable time to serve Wales, is it not a discourtesy to them, as appears to be the case after hearing the right hon. and learned Gentleman's answers and reading his comments in last week's debate, to take no notice of what they have said about what is needed for the Welsh economy?
    Mr. Thomas: The hon. Gentleman really must not say that my comments indicate that I am going to take no notice at all of advice that is given to me by the Welsh Council. I have already told the House that its recommendations will be carefully considered. They are important recommendations, and they are being considered in the context of the review to which I have referred the House.

    Straying Animals (Protection of Children)
    The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
    FRED EVANS: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what progress he has made in his consideration of steps to protect children in the valley communities of South Wales from injury by animals straying into built-up areas from neighbouring hill areas.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Fred Evans, to ask Question No. 17.
    Mr. Evans: Will the hon. Gentleman accept that I—
    Hon. Members: Ask the Question.
    Mr. Evans: I am sorry—Question No. 17.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: The working party is still receiving evidence and making site visits.
    Mr. Evans: Will the hon. Gentleman accept that I anticipated his answer and also the fact that he has had a committee considering this matter for about 12 meetings? Will he accept that while we on this side of the House realise that this is a long and intractable problem, we take the view that it is high time we got some results? Will the hon. Gentleman further accept that in my constituency there have
    14
    been four recent cases of this kind, including one a week ago last Saturday when a four-year-old boy was savagely attacked by wild ponies and kicked in the head in an area which could have led to the loss of his sight? This happened in the middle of a built-up, modern housing estate. Will the hon. Gentleman further accept, in all seriousness, that unless something is done about this very quickly, there will inevitably be a fatality among children?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I accept what the hon. Gentleman says. This is a serious business, and that is why this Government—not the previous one—set up the working party. The hon. Gentleman spoke about anticipating things. May I tell him that he and his right hon. Friends could have done more about this in the past. We intend to do more about it in the future.
    Mr. McBride: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, while the consideration proceeds, in Swansea depredation by roaming horses continues and serious damage will be done there in the future, as it has been in the past? In another direction, will the hon. Gentleman appreciate that some adventurous-minded children, who will ride these wild ponies, will inevitably meet with serious injury and that it is in an attempt to forestall this that we hope the Government will come forward with proposals?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I accept what the hon. Gentleman says. This is an important matter in Swansea, and when I visited there with the working party we were told all the details of the problem. I assure all hon. Members that we shall not take any longer than we have to, but this is a complicated business and needs a bit of time.

    Rhuddlan Bypass
    Sir A. Meyerasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will make early provision for the road replacement of Rhuddlan road bridge and for realigning the junction of the A525 and 547 at this point.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: A scheme to bypass this junction and the old railway bridge is in my principal road programme for a start in 1972–73. An extension of the scheme which will bypass the river bridge is under consideration.
    Sir A. Meyer: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that that reply will give relief in my constituency? Does he not consider that there is a case for reviewing priorities in these matters as vast sums of money have been spent on improving the existing dual carriageway between St. Asaph and Rhuddlan whereas the realignment of the bridge is surely a more important task?
    Mr. Thomas: I accept that there is some urgency, and a 75 per cent. grant will be issued as soon as the county council is ready to proceed with the first part of the scheme which I have mentioned.

    River Dee (Barrage)
    Mr. Barry Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a further statement on the Dee barrage proposals.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: My right hon Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment and I are proceeding with our evaluation of this multi-purpose project. There are many matters to be considered and we are not yet ready to announce conclusions.
    Mr. Jones: Is it not a fact that the Cabinet is split on this matter?
    Mr. Thomas: No. Sir.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: In the event of this scheme materialising, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give an assurance that there will be equality of control as between both sides of the border and that he is instituting a sociological and economic inquiry into the possible consequences of this? Will he say that the water which will be made available for consumption for various reasons as a result of this scheme will make it unnecessary in future to drown Welsh valleys?
    Mr. Thomas: These are all very important matters which have to be considered. It gives some indication of the complexity of the whole thing and the reason why very careful thought has to be given before decisions are taken.

    Housing Finance Bill
    Mr. McBrideasked the Secretary of State for Wales how many Welsh
    16
    local authorities have intimated their intention to increase the rents of their houses and flats by 50p per week on 1st April, 1972, under the provisions of the Housing Finance Bill; and which Welsh local authorities which, by reason of not imposing the above increase, will, by the terms of the Bill, have to impose a mandatory increase in the rents of their houses and flats of £1 per week on 1st October, 1972.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: Local authorities are not required to provide me with this information and none has done so.
    Mr. McBride: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in that answer he has dodged his responsibility to Wales? Is he aware that this affects 270,000 local authority dwellings and therefore, at three persons to a house, 800,00 Welsh people? If we assume that half the rents are increased in April and half in October, this means that over £10,400,000 will be taken out of the Welsh economy, making nonsense of the Prime Minister's constant inflation theory. Is not this a clear infringement of the rights of the people, inducing future wage claims? Does not the hon. Gentleman think it a disgrace to be part of a Government which today will seek to impose a timetable on discussion of the Bill?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I do not know where the hon. Member has got his figures from but I would not accept them. I would only add that local authorities are not obliged to make rent increases before the Housing Finance Bill becomes an Act. However, if they make any increases between 1st October, 1971, and 30th September, 1972, these could count as increases for the purposes of the Bill.
    Mr. McBride: On a point of order. May I point out to you, Mr. Speaker, that the retrospective legal provisions of the Bill require increases to be made on 1st April, before it will be enacted?
    Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter for me.
    Mr. Alec Jones: When the Minister for Housing and Construction can announce in Committee the level of fair rents for many districts in England, why is it that the Minister responsible for housing in Wales cannot give us an idea of the level of fair rents in Wales?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: As I said in my original answer, local authorities are not required to give me this information, and none has done so.
    Mr. McBride: On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I will seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment as early as possible.

    Home Improvement Grants
    Mr. Alec Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will seek to amend the Housing Act, 1971, in order to enable local authorities in development areas to pay the 75 per cent. grant for home improvement grants if they are started, as opposed to completed, by 23rd June. 1973.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I have noted the hon. Member's point, but the purpose of the Act was to get improvement work for the areas concerned brought forward and completed as quickly as possible.
    Mr. Jones: Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that failure to extend the deadline for the payment of the 75 per cent. grants will mean unfair treatment between one claimant and another, will delay housing improvements and will certainly affect local authorities which are anxiously trying to get on with general improvement areas? Will he at least call a conference of the local authorities in Wales to discuss their very real fears in this respect?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: As I said, I have noted the hon. Member's point. Of course, the 1971 Act has been designed to produce a short, sharp campaign of housing modernisation to give much-needed help to development and intermediate areas.
    Sir A. Meyer: Is my hon. Friend aware that the area of home improvement grants is yet another in which Flintshire is discriminated against by virtue of not being part of the Welsh development area?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I cannot make any useful comment on that point.
    Mr. Roy Hughes: Does the hon. Gentleman now agree that the Government should concede that it would be in the best interests of owner-occupiers, of tenants and of local authorities if the
    18
    scheme were extended beyond June, 1973? Will he not further appreciate that builders could then plan their later requirements accordingly and thus help to solve the present chronic unemployment position in Wales?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I note the strength of view on this point from several hon. Members. I cannot add to the answer I have given this afternoon.

    Venereal Diseases
    Mr. Gowerasked the Secretary of State for Wales what increase in the incidence of venereal diseases has occurred in Wales in the last year and during the past 10 years, respectively; and what are his proposals for dealing with the problems which have arisen.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: Five per cent. in 1970, the latest year for which complete figures are available and 77 per cent. over the 10-year period. The general increase in these diseases is a matter of national concern. Steps are being taken to increase publicity and health education, improve the tracing of contacts and encourage early diagnosis and treatment.
    Mr. Gower: Is my hon. Friend aware that doctors in South Wales have expressed deep anxiety about this and also about the fact that a form of the disease has emerged which appears to be unaffected by certain antibiotic treatment? Is he aware that some doctors have expressed concern that this appears to have much less attention than matters like abortion?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I was not aware of that last point. I can assure my hon. Friend that this is a matter of considerable concern to the health authorities. I am very glad that my hon. Friend has raised this matter in the House today.

    Sewerage
    Mr. Nicholas Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he is taking to ensure that modern sewage treatment schemes are given priority in the allocation of resources in Wales.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: The authorities concerned are given every encouragement by my Department to improve their sewerage systems and sewage treatment plant.

    19
    Some £50 million will be spent on such schemes over the next five years compared with £33 million in the last five years.
    Mr. Edwards: I thank my hon. Friend for the welcome news that additional funds are being made available. Is he aware that many of us feel that an even higher priority should be given to this matter and that it is totally unacceptable in this day and age that raw sewage should be pumped into the sea? Can he also assure me that his Department will consider with all urgency the two schemes currently before it—namely, those for Fishguard and Haverford west?
    Mr. Gibson-Wart: The Working Party on Sewage Disposal accepted that crude sewage could be discharged to sea only after preliminary treatment and through properly sited outfalls. As for the two schemes my hon. Friend mentions, which are at present awaiting action by the Welsh Office, this is mainly on engineering investigation and there will be no unnecessary delay.

    Rehousing Need
    Mr. Elystan Morganasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will ascertain from each local government housing authority in Wales the number of people in its area whom they regard to be in serious need of rehousing.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: No, Sir. Estimates of this type are of prime concern to the housing authorities themselves, to be used as the basis for framing their proposals to meet the rehousing needs of their areas.
    Mr. Morgan: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that it is part of his general ministerial duty to acquaint himself with these figures? Is it not a harsh and senseless irony that while substantial sums are spent upon improvements to holiday cottages these housing lists lengthen miserably?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: Local authorities have a statutory duty to review the housing needs of their districts from time to time and to formulate proposals for dealing with them. I certainly encourage local authorities and give them every help in carrying out their housing functions, and I shall continue to do so.

    Geriatric Beds (Neath)
    Mr. Colemanasked the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has to increase the number of hospital beds in the Neath area for geriatric occupation; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: A new geriatric unit of 30 beds will shortly be completed at Cymla Hospital, Neath.
    Mr. Coleman: But is the hon. Gentleman aware that even with this welcome addition, which was provided as a result of the help of the Friends of the Neath Hospitals, there are increasing difficulties in the provision of geriatric accommodation in Neath? These increasing difficulties are being experienced by medical practitioners, consultants and the hospital management committee. Will the hon. Gentleman initiate discussions with the Welsh Hospital Board which will mean that we shall have greater provision of this kind of accommodation in the Neath hospitals in the near future?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I share the hon. Member's concern about this matter. Although the number of geriatric beds in the area has risen from 69 in 1967 to 125 after the Cymla Hospital is built, it is still rather under the average. I accept what he says about the work done by the Friends of the Neath Hospitals. I am sure he will welcome the additional moneys which the Government have made available for the long-stay sector, which will help the geriatric services. Discussions such as the hon. Member asked about go on all the time.
    Mr. Probert: This acute shortage also exists in my constituency, which is a neighbouring constituency to Neath. Only this morning at 8.30 I was in touch with the medical officer of health concerning two very tragic geriatric cases in my constituency.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: It is generally known throughout the country that the demand for geriatric services is growing.

    Operation Eyesore
    Mr. Johnasked the Secretary of State for Wales how many applications have been made for grants to clear up eyesores pursuant to his recent announcement.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: Applications for grant towards the cost of treating 236 sites have so far been received by the Welsh Office Derelict Land Unit under the new arrangements.
    Mr. John: Since the Minister laid such store upon the effect on employment of the new grants, welcome as they are, will he tell us what effect the sanctioning of these schemes would have on unemployment?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I cannot give specific figures but it is extremely encouraging that we have 236 sites already in answer to Operation Eyesore. The Welsh Office Derelict Land Unit has, inspected sites in the areas of 15 local authorities and the grant approvals are being issued.

    Lead and Cadmium Pollution (South Wales)
    Mr. Roy Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales what further action he is taking as a result of the traces of lead and cadmium found in samples of sea water recently collected off the South Wales coast.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: As my right hon Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food told the hon. Member on 14th February, his Department is monitoring for heavy metals, particularly lead and cadmium, in commercial fish and shellfish in the Severn Estuary and Bristol Channel as part of a national survey. In addition the Welsh Office is keeping in touch with the various bodies, including universities, which are engaged in research into pollution problems off the South Wales coast.
    Mr. Hughes: Are not these persistent reports rather disturbing and should not the Government make greater efforts to trace the source of pollution? Can they not make it clear that the health and well-being of people are far more important than the narrow pursuit of profit?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: This is certainly a most important matter. It is expected that the report of the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on the lead content of commercially-caught fish will be published in April and the report on cadmium in the autumn. The report on
    22
    the pollution problems in the Severn Estuary is being prepared by the Government's Sea Water Pollution Research Laboratory and will be available shortly.

    Weekly Wage
    Mr. Roderickasked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the average weekly wage per person in Wales for the last available week.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: The full information requested is not available. The latest figures relate to October, 1971, when the average weekly earnings of male manual workers in Wales, aged 21 and over, were £31·10. This figure is slightly higher than the comparable Great Britain figure. The latest figures for the earnings of female workers and non-manual male workers relate to April, 1971, when they were lower than the comparable Great Britain figures.
    Mr. Roderick: Can the Secretary of State say what factors have led to the change in the situation so that male workers in Wales had much higher average earnings in October than workers in the United Kingdom as a whole? This is a trend which has changed considerably. Over industry as a whole there is a lower average. Would not the Secretary of State agree that if we are to suffer lower wages, any rises in the cost of living will bear more heavily on us in Wales?
    Mr. Thomas: The latest figures relate to manual male workers and there is no doubt that they are slightly higher than the national figure, but the average weekly earnings of women, boys, girls and non-manual workers in Wales tend to be lower than the national average.
    Mr. Gower: Whereas in Wales average earnings in manufacturing industries are higher than the average for the United Kingdom, the average earnings over the whole of Wales are lower than in many parts of the United Kingdom because we lack business and professional employment which is present in the Midlands and the South-East.
    Mr. Thomas: What my hon. Friend says is about right. A large percentage of male workers in Wales are manual workers, something like 70 per cent., which is much higher than in the United Kingdom generally.
    Mr. Kinnock: While the figure for earnings is marginally higher than in the rest of the United Kingdom, the average figure for unemployment in Wales is grossly higher than the United Kingdom average. Will the Secretary of State produce specific suggestions for cutting down unemployment in Wales?
    Mr. Thomas: During the debate last week these figures were gone into in some detail. The percentage of unemployment in Wales has been higher than the national average for many years.

    LEGAL PROCEEDINGS (DURATION AND COST)
    Mr. Arthur Lewisasked the Attorney-General whether he is aware of the concern felt by the taxpayer in general, and those seeking legal redress in particular, at the long time which ensues before legal cases are resolved, and of the fact that delay in proceedings can prove a profitable venture for those connected with the legal profession; and what action he has taken or intends taking to speedup the whole of the judiciary
    system.
    The Solicitor-General (Sir Geoffrey Howe): My noble Friend the Lord Chancellor is as much concerned on humanitarian as on financial grounds at delays in bringing cases to trial. It was to speed this process that the Government introduced the sweeping reforms brought about by the Courts Act which is now in operation. I cannot accept that it is in the interests of the legal profession or anyone else for there to be delays in the administration of justice.
    Mr. Lewis: I am receiving no refresher brief. For 25 years I have heard Governments say that they will do something about it but things are getting worse. Will not the Solicitor-General support the Lord Chancellor in seeing that action is taken? Will he set up a committee of ordinary trade unionists to consider whether these people can operate on some kind of piece-work bonus payment? When workers take a long time over their work there are screams of protest in this House, but lawyers seem to get away with it.
    The Solicitor-General: The hon. Member is wrong to suggest that the matter is being treated with indifference. As a
    24
    result of the Courts Act and consequent upon that, the Lord Chancellor has taken and is taking steps to increase substantially the number of courts available in the London area. They increased by 15 since he came into office, and another 16 courtrooms will be brought into use by the end of this year. The problem of delay is being tackled vigorously and specially by the circuit administrator for the South-Eastern Circuit at the personal request of the Lord Chancellor.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Is it not the case that, bad though we may be, we are a good deal better than we were and we are far better than any other civilised country?
    The Solicitor-General: My hon. and learned Friend is quite right. That fact was remarked upon by the members of the visiting deputation from America who came here last year.
    Sir Elwyn Jones: As the implementation of the Beeching Commission recommendations has, or should have had, the effect of eliminating a good deal of wasted judicial time, can the Solicitor-General yet give an indication of what impact the implementation of the Beeching proposals has had on this grave problem of delay which concerns not only the laymen but lawyers too?
    The Solicitor-General: As I have already indicated the Government entirely share the concern about this matter but, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman will appreciate, the effects of the Beeching Commission Report really started only from the beginning of this year. Statistics are only now beginning to come in but the number of courts available in London has been and is being substantially increased. Delays in the London and South-Eastern areas should begin to yield to that change quickly. The position outside London is nothing like as serious.
    Mr. Arthur Lewisasked the Attorney-General whether he will give for the longest and most convenient stated period of time as much detailed information as may be readily available giving the actual and/or estimated time taken for cases to go through all their legal stages; how many cases are outstanding which first commenced before

    25
    January, 1972; and what on average is the cost of court cases in general and of High Court cases in particular.
    The Solicitor-General: The average waiting time between committal by magistrates' courts and hearing by the Crown Court is about five months in London and two months elsewhere. It is possible to bring defended Queen's Bench actions on for hearing within six to eight weeks of the solicitors certifying that they are ready to proceed.
    On 25th February, 1972, there were 2,646 cases awaiting trial at the Crown Court in London which had been committed before 1st January. In the provinces there were 3,893 outstanding committals, 1,882 Queen's Bench actions awaited trial in London on 3rd March, 1972, and 1,118 in the provinces on 25th February.
    The average cost of legally aided cases tried at assizes and quarter sessions in 1970–71 was £101·89.
    Mr. Lewis: May I express my thanks to the Solicitor-General for his very detailed reply? Do not these figures show that something should be done? Is it not terrible that people should be kept waiting five months by a magistrates' court before they know how serious is the outcome? Ordinary people worry about these things and to be kept waiting five months, even though it may appear trivial to some, is a worry. Perhaps the Solicitor-General could consider setting up a Select Committee of the House to see what could be done to expedite these issues.
    The Solicitor-General: The hon. Gentleman must not assume that it is only ordinary people who are concerned about this. My noble Friend and my right hon. and learned Friend share concern about the long delay between committal and trial in the London area. It is for just that reason that the Courts Act reforms have been passed, that all the efforts are being made to produce the additional courtroom accommodation I have mentioned and that the circuit administrator for the South-Eastern Circuit is undertaking a special and urgent review of the position in London and the South-East.
    Sir G. Nabarro: While I do not wish to comment adversely at this stage on these deplorable figures, many of which
    26
    are avoidable, may I ask my hon. and learned Friend to apply himself to the disgraceful delays in ordinary administrative processes, such as obtaining a transcript of a case going to appeal, for which I have been waiting for seven long weeks and I cannot get any change out of the courts or anyone else?
    The Solicitor-General: My noble Friend is aware of, among other things, the recurrent complaints about delays in obtaining transcripts and has for that reason also been taking action on that front. The number of transcripts outstanding in cases going to the Court of Appeal, Criminal Division, a year ago was 1,083. This year it has been reduced to less than half that figure. The importance of the matter is not underrated and it is being tackled.
    Mr. Lipton: What impact have the recent changes had in reducing the backlog of cases at the Old Bailey? I know of people in Brixton prison for months at a time on remand awaiting trial at the Old Bailey.
    The Solicitor-General: The particular problem at the Old Bailey is part of the general problem of securing early trial of cases in the London area. It is one of the problems to which special attention is being given. Its importance to the hon. Gentleman is in no sense underrated but we must bear in mind that in the first two months of this year there has been an unprecedented number of committals for trial, amounting to almost 1,605 in the London area in those two months alone.
    Sir Elwyn Jones: It seems to be conceded that five months is an intolerable time between committal and the trial of criminal cases in the London magistrates' courts. Will the Solicitor-General give sympathetic consideration to the proposals now being made for an extension of bail for those awaiting trial? One of the most deplorable features of our administration of justice at present is that people who are subsequently acquitted or not sent to gaol spend months in prison before coming to trial.
    The Solicitor-General: There has been a recent report on the subject which we discussed to some extent in the recent debate on the Legal Advice and Assistance Bill. I then indicated that I was

    27
    responding sympathetically to some of the matters there set out. Obviously, the proposal that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has mentioned is one of the solutions which must be considered by any Government wrestling with the same intractable problems of the crime explosion as faced the right hon. and learned Gentleman when he was in office.

    ELGAR BIRTHPLACE TRUST
    Sir G. Nabarroasked the Attorney-General whether police investigations into the affairs of the Elgar Birthplace Trust are completed following the report of the Charity Commissioners; and what action he is taking.
    The Solicitor-General: The police inquiries into this complex matter are continuing. No decision can be taken about further action until those inquiries are completed.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Does not my hon. and learned Friend realise that the matter has been in the hands of the police for more than 12 months, that it is not as complex as he suggests and that all the trustees, including myself, are struggling with the operation of trying to reconstruct the trust? Cannot he do anything to expedite completion of the inquiries?
    The Solicitor-General: I appreciate my hon. Friend's concern in the matter. He will recall that it was only last July that the inquiry conducted by Mr. Settle on behalf of the Charity Commissioners was completed. Certain difficulties have subsequently arisen due to the absence from this country, now concluded, of one of the people concerned in the investigation. My hon. Friend can be assured that the matter is being pressed forward as expeditiously as possible.

    MATRIMONIAL LAW
    Mr. Clinton Davisasked the Attorney-General what plans he has to introduce further legislation to reform matrimonial law; and if he will make a statement.
    The Solicitor-General: Several aspects of matrimonial law are at present under consideration by the Law Commission. The Government remain disposed to give
    28
    sympathetic consideration to any proposals which the commission may put forward.
    Mr. Davis: Is the Solicitor-General considering the introduction of legislation in particular to deal with resolving the disparities in legal concepts of matrimonial law between courts of summary jurisdiction and higher courts? Is not it absurd that there should be that difference? When does the hon. and learned Gentleman think that action will be taken?
    The Solicitor-General: This is one of the matters which is being examined by the Law Commission. The discrepancies between the law applicable in the higher courts and in the magistrates' courts is well known. The Law Commission hopes shortly to circulate a working paper asking for comments on proposals that it will put forward for eliminating those discrepancies.
    Mr. S. C. Silkin: I appreciate that the Law Commission is seized of a number of problems relating to this matter. Do the Government give general support to the concept of a comprehensive family court, which many people are anxious to see established?
    The Solicitor-General: That proposal has been put forward from a number of different places at different times in recent years. It is also now the subject of a study by a working party.

    INTERROGATION METHODS
    Mr. George Cunninghamasked the Attorney-General whether, in the light of the Parker Report, he will now initiate legal proceedings against the Ministers responsible for authorising the criminal assaults committed in the course of carrying out the interrogation methods described in the report.
    The Solicitor-General: No, Sir. My right hon. and learned Friend has been shown no evidence to support the allegation that anyone within the jurisdiction of the English courts committed an offence in respect of the interrogation methods described in the Parker Report.
    Mr. Cunningham: When a former Lord Chancellor asserts quite distinctly

    29
    that the actions that were taken are contrary to the law in this country and in Northern Ireland, and the majority in the Parker Committee drew back from any remark about the Northern Ireland situation only in deference to the Northern Ireland courts, is it not necessary to have the matter cleared up quickly to assure the public that Ministers may not hold nominal authority for actions done contrary to law and remain in office?
    The Solicitor-General: The Parker Report made clear that it would not be proper for the committee to comment on any aspect currently under consideration by the courts of Northern Ireland. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said the same on 2nd March. As to the position in this country, I have nothing to add to the answer I have already given.
    Mr. Evelyn King: Is not it a fact that over 200 murders have been committed in the past two or three years by the I.R.A. and not a single conviction has yet been secured? Is not that a much more urgent matter for inquiry?
    The Solicitor-General: I cannot comment on the figure my hon. Friend has quoted but I understand his concern. The matter still remains one for the Northern Ireland authorities.

    ECCLESIASTICAL FEES
    Mr. Spriggsasked the hon. Member for Chelsea, as Second Church Estates Commissioner, what criteria were used by the Church Commissioners for England when, in exercise of their powers conferred on them by Section 2(1) of the Ecclesiastical Fees Measure, 1962(a), and all other powers enabling them in that behalf, they ordered increased fees by the Parochial Fees Order, 1972, due to come into operation on 1st June, 1972.
    The Second Church Estates Commissioner Representing the Church Commissioners (Mr. Marcus Worsley): The main criterion was the fall in the value of money. This was not fully taken into account when the fees were last reviewed in 1962.
    Mr. Spriggs: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that over the years the increases in fees have amounted to many hundred per cent.? One in particular, for the carriage of a headstone or surround
    30
    across church grounds, has increased from £5·50 to £11. Is not that disgraceful at a time when the Government are asking everyone to keep down costs and are asking trade unionists to restrict their wage demands? Yet the Government allow this matter to lie on the table. Why?
    Mr. Worsley: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, the figure he gave is an in-increase of 100 per cent., not many hundred. An examination of the figures will show him that on average over the years the increases have been rather less than those necessary to keep up with the fall in the value of money. The fee for the cheapest headstones has been reduced under the orders.
    Sir D. Walker-Smith: Does not my hon. Friend appreciate that an increase of 100 per cent. is scant consolation? Will he not ask the Church Commissioners to reconsider and, if possible, remove this grossly inflationary increase in the cost of dying?
    Mr. Worsley: I note what my right hon. and learned Friend has said but I think in all seriousness that, on looking at the figures in the context of the long period since a major review has taken place, he will find them not unreasonable.
    Mr. Harold Walker: The hon. Gentleman has not told the House how an increased cost can be involved in granting permission for the erection of a headstone. How can such an increased cost be incurred? Will any of the increase go towards the stipends of low-paid clergymen? Will he ensure that they get a share and that the extra money will not all go to diocesan funds?
    Mr. Worsley: I can give the hon. Gentleman that assurance in the case of most of the money involved, although some goes to the parochial church councils, who are responsible for maintaining churchyards. I think he will agree that it is a reasonable charge.

    CHURCH OF ENGLAND MEASURES
    Mr. Heffer: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. While I have a great deal of sympathy with Question No. 36, is it not possible for the House to devise some other way of raising such matters rather

    31
    than have items concerning the Church of England coming before the House? I know that it is the established Church but is it not time that a Select Committee had a look at the procedure of raising questions of this kind and other matters relating to the Church of England? We are not all members of the Church of England—right hon. and hon. Members may be Methodists or Roman Catholics, for example, and we may have Moslems in the House sooner or later. In these circumstances, is it not time we had a look at the whole issue? Could we not have a Select Committee to go into the matter? I say this as a member of the Church of England. It is about time we got away from the archaic practice of having such items discussed in this House.
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has raised this as a point of order. I make no comment on the substance of the matter. It is not for me but for other people to consider.

CHINA (EXCHANGE OF AMBASSADORS)
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Sir Alec Douglas-Home): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I wish to make a statement.
Discussions with the Government of the People's Republic of China about an exchange of ambassadors have been successfully concluded and a communiquéon this matter was signed today in Peking.
When early last year we decided to resume discussions with the Chinese Government on this subject we told them that if an agreement on an exchange of ambassadors was reached we would be prepared to withdraw our consulate from Taiwan. This we shall now do.
With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the text of the communiquéwhich we have agreed with the Chinese Government.
Mr. Healey: First, I express to the right hon. Gentleman how glad we are on this side of the House that the chargés d'affaires will now be raised to the status of ambassadors, and we express the hope that this step will inaugurate
32
an increasingly friendly period of co-operation with China, both politically and economically.
Do the Government maintain the position, taken by the British Government at the Cairo conference, that Taiwan is a part of China? Has he any plans for visiting China himself in the near future? Will he consider urgently the possibility of sending an official trade mission to China?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his general welcome for this move. The right hon. Gentleman asks whether Taiwan is part of China. I would express the position as follows: the Government of the United Kingdom acknowledge the position of the Chinese Government that Taiwan is a province of the People's Republic of China. Both the Government of the People's Republic of China and Taipeh maintain that Taiwan is a part of China. We held the view both at Cairo and at Potsdam that Taiwan should be restored to China. That view has not changed. We think that the Taiwan question is China's internal affair to be settled by the Chinese people themselves.
I should be glad to go to China but I could not go in the immediate future because, I am afraid, my programme is too heavy.
Sir D. Walker-Smith: Does my right hon. Friend expect that these arrangements will expedite procedures in the case of arrests of British subjects in the Republic of China in future, if such should arise? Secondly, what in practice will be the arrangements for looking after British interests in Taiwan in future?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: The Australians have kindly agreed to look after British interests in Taiwan. As for expediting procedures in relation to people who are still in Chinese custody, I think that this new agreement will create a better climate in which we can talk to the Chinese.
Mr. Pardoe: I welcome this announcement. Bearing in mind the British Government's recognition of Taiwan as a province of the People's Republic of China, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has had or intends to

33
have any discussion about the long-term future of Hong Kong?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: That question does not arise.
Mr. Gorst: Is my right hon. Friend's statement likely to improve the chances of my constituent's sister, Mrs. Gladys Yang, who has been in detention for four years in China, being released or at least allowed to communicate with her family? Might it expedite her release from this so-called "investigation" which the Chinese authorities say her case is being subject to at the moment?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: As I think my hon. Friend knows, we have done all we canto achieve Mrs. Yang's release. My reply to him is the same as my reply to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith), that we must not raise hopes in these matters, but we hope that the new climate will lead to the possibility of further talks on this subject.
Mr. Dalyell: I am delighted. First, may I pay tribute to a number of Foreign Office officials here in London and in Peking whose skilful spadework have made this agreement possible, in particular Mr. John Denson, a former chargé d'affaire, whose mastery of the Chinese language gave him great esteem in Peking but who had to retire, unfortunately, a little early from that post, owing to temporary ill-heath.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether we can now get on to the subject of the possibility of B.O.A.C. having a direct air route to Peking? If we are to have the technical and trading relationships which many of us would like to see, it requires an easy exchange of people, particularly in, for example, the nuclear power and motor industries or in many other trade sectors which might now seem to be possible.
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his tribute to officials, who have been very good in this matter. I did not tell the House in my statement, but Mr. John Addis, who is well qualified for the post, will be our first Ambassador in Peking. Of course we want the best possible communications with the People's Republic, but the hon. Gentleman's question about B.O.A.C. and trade
34
had better be put to the Minister concerned.
Sir Gilbert Longden: While welcoming my right hon. Friend's statement, may I ask whether he has any information as to the wishes of the people of Taiwan proper other than the Chinese Nationalists there?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I do not have any indication of the wishes of the people of Taiwan. I can only repeat what I have said—indeed, I cannot add to what I said to the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey)—that we think that the Taiwan question is China's internal affair to be settled by the Chinese people. This is in accordance with the views which the British Government took both at Cairo and at Potsdam.
Mr. Pavitt: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that, in addition to the trade links which we used to have with China, there were wide links between the British co-operative movement and the industrial co-operatives in China, which were fostered by Sir Stafford Cripps during war-time and which lasted for some years until Chiang Kai-shek lost power? Will the right hon. Gentleman look again at this area of contact between the British people and the Chinese people through trade unions, co-operatives and other people's organisations in helping to achieve future friendship and understanding?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: We look to all opportunities of contact between the British and Chinese peoples.
Mr. Tilney: Although our trade with Taiwan is small, may I ask my right hon. Friend for an assurance that the withdrawal of our consulate-general from Taiwan will not prevent our trade continuing with Taiwan?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I hope that will be so. Our consul was never accredited to the Government of Taiwan. He was accredited to the local provincial authorities. I hope that the trade will increase. West Germany, for example, rapidly increased her trade in Taiwan without consular representation.
Mr. Walters: Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind the need to give the maximum support to British industry as

35
soon as possible in its endeavours to enter the Chinese market before the United States, whose foreign policy has been so infinitely more dilatory than ours, moves in?
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: We shall certainly give any support we can to our industry in relation to trade with China. Lately there have been signs that industry is interested, and so are the Chinese Government.
Following is the communiqueé:
COMMUNIQUE ON THE AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND ON AN EXCHANGE OF AMBASSADORS.
Both confirming the principles of mutual respect for sovereignty and territorial integrity, non-interference in each other's internal affairs and equality and mutual benefit, the Government of the People's Republic of China and the Government of the United Kingdom have decided to raise the level of their respective Diplomatic Representatives in each other's capitals from Chargeé d'Affaires to Ambassadors as from 13th March, 1972.
The Government of the United Kingdom, acknowledging the position of the Chinese Government that Taiwan is a province of the People's Republic of China, have decided to remove their official representation in Taiwan on 13th March, 1972
The Government of the United Kingdom recognise the Government of the People's Republic of China as the sole legal Government of China.
The Government of the People's Republic of China appreciates the above stand of the Government of the United Kingdom.

NORTHERN IRELAND
Mr. McManus: On a point of order. I have already given you notice, Mr. Speaker, of my intention to ask leave to move the adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the peace proposals of the I.R.A."
This is a specific matter because the demands are clear and unmistakable. They are: the immediate withdrawal off the streets of British troops; a declaration by the British Government that troops will eventually be withdrawn; a declaration of intent that the Irish people have the right to determine their own future without
36
outside interference; the unconditional end of internment; absolute political amnesty; and the abolition of Stormont.
This is an important matter not only because these demands indicate that the I.R.A. desires peace and justice and not only because the I.R.A. has demonstrated that it has absolute control of its own forces—the North has had the quietest weekend for years—but mainly because these are the demands not just of the I.R.A. With a few variations here and there, these are the basic demands of the entire anti-Unionist population of the North of Ireland. From that population now comes one united clear and unambiguous voice saying that these are the basic demands of that population. The Government have no excuse for saying that they are confused or uncertain about the demands. The position is crystal clear.
The matter is urgent. It could not be more urgent, for two reasons. At midnight tonight the three-day truce ends, and unless there is a positive response from the Government we may assume that violence will recommence. If that happens, all the world will see more clearly than ever before that responsibility for the violence rests where it has always rested—on the shoulders of this Government.
Finally, it is a most urgent matter, because if the initiative that the Government propose to take, already seven months too late, does not meet those basic demands and contains only a few paltry concessions, the unanimous, united and unambiguous answer from the minority will be, "No".
Rev. Ian Paisley: On a point of order—
Mr. Speaker: No point of order can arise at this moment.
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. McManus) for giving me notice of his intention to make his application to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter which should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the peace proposals of the I.R.A.".
My ruling bears no relation to and is no comment on the merits or otherwise

37
of the application. I have to rule simply whether I should give the application precedence over other business. I am not prepared to give it such precedence.
Rev. Ian Paisley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Ought not the House to
38
be aware that, far from the weekend in Belfast being quiet, there were burnings and robberies and a Roman Catholic woman was shot dead by terrorists?
Mr. Speaker: Order. That is not a matter of order for me under the Standing Orders of the House.