Sitting of 29 November 1971

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  WALES

    Unemployment
    Mr. McBrideasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will now meet the Welsh Advisory Committee of the Trades Union Congress to discuss the level of unemployment in Wales, in view of the latest figures of redundancies.
    The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Thomas): Yes, I hope to do so very shortly.
    Mr. McBride: I am pleased to hear that reply, because the position in Wales, with more than 50,000 unemployed and with 15,000 redundancies notified at the
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    end of October last, means that unemployment is now at crisis level. The step taken by the right hon. and learned Gentleman will perhaps correct the impression given, rightly or wrongly, that his inactivity was resulting in the displacement of two generations of Welsh people who sought employment.
    Mr. Thomas: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I have had three meetings with the Welsh T.U.C., and I look forward to having further discussions with it.
    Mr. Ellis: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that in my constituency, some unemployment is already being experienced, and a great deal more is likely in the haulage industry due to the failure of the Government to provide permits to haulage firms to use their lorries on the Continent? Would he be good enough to have a word with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment and ask him to look into this problem?
    Mr. Thomas: I shall certainly look into the matter and write to the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Alec Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Wales what special steps he proposes to take to alleviate unemployment amongst young people in Wales.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: A lasting reduction in unemployment among young people in Wales can only be brought about by renewed economic growth. We are pledged

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    to achieve this. More immediately I am in close touch with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment about the part Wales shall play in the National Association of Youth Clubs scheme which he announced last week.
    Mr. Alec Jones: Does not the Secretary of State appreciate that most of us on this side of the House welcome the initiative of the youth clubs in Wales in this connection? At the same time, in Wales there are 50,000 reasons why we are extremely critical of the Government's unemployment policy. Would not the right hon. and learned Gentleman at least accept that he has a special responsibility to the young unemployed in Wales, and would he consider approaching directly public authorities, local authorities, nationalised industries and even private firms urging them to increase the number of apprenticeships?
    Mr. Thomas: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is very important that there should be an increase in apprenticeships. As he knows, there has recently been a considerable increase in training facilities. I am fully aware of the seriousness of the unemployment situation. That is why I am glad that such massive reflationary Measures, many of which were announced last week, have been taken by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Mr. Gower: In view of all these questions about unemployment, has my right hon. and learned Friend noted that in the New Statesman and in Tribune, which are by no means devoted to the support of the present Government, there have been deep criticisms recently about the sharp growth of unemployment in the latter days of the Labour Government? As the present Government also inherited a inflationary situation, does not that explain our difficulty?
    Mr. Thomas: If this Government are at fault, it is in their misjudgment of the deep-seated effect of the deflationary policies pursued by the previous Administration and of the effect of the serious wage-cost inflation with which we were left in 1970. That is why the massive and unprecedented reflationary policies announced by my right hon. Friend will be the only answer to the problems we face.
    Mr. Gwynoro Jones: Is not the Secretary of State aware that by dismantling the regional development policy, mainly with the abolition of investment grants, the Government are responsible for what they are doing, which has resulted in 70 per cent. fewer jobs and 50 per cent. fewer industries coming to Wales than a year ago? This is the direct result not of the actions of the C.E.I. or anyone else but of the Government.
    Mr. Thomas: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. The regional policies announced by the Government offer a great inducement to industry to go to the areas when there is an upturn in the economy nationally.
    Sir A. Meyer: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that in North Wales at least, one slightly brighter spot in a very grim employment picture is that the whole picture for school leavers has begun to show signs of improvement?
    Mr. Thomas: Yes. Although the matter has been serious, I am happy to say that the majority of school leavers are in employment.
    Mr. William Edwards: Whilst we all accept that there were difficulties during the period of Labour Government, would the Secretary of State explain why more new jobs were created in Wales during a period of deflation under a Labour Government than are now being created in a period of reflation under his Government?
    Mr. Gwynoro Jones: Forty thousand.
    Mr. Thomas: I can explain that. It was because the deflationary policies pursued from 1966 onwards took some time to work through the economy. On top of that there was the unprecedented wage-cost inflation which was left for the present Government when we took over last year.
    Mr. Johnasked the Secretary of State for Wales what estimate he has made of the effect of additional Government expenditure in Wales on overcoming unemployment.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: No precise estimate can be made but the additional Government expenditure announced in recent months is designed to improve

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    employment opportunities in Wales substantially.
    Mr. John: Is it not a novel doctrine of a so-called considered Government, which the Prime Minister promised, that measures are now being taken without any calculation of their likely effect? Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say how many jobs will be provided by the miserable 5 per cent. of the total amount allocated to Wales in last week's announcement?
    Mr. Peter Thomas: The hon. Gentleman is extraordinary in the way he tries to denigrate the major proposals for Wales, the £21 million which comes with the infrastructure, the £9 million extra to be spent on roads and, in addition, the share of the acceleration of the nationalised industry expenditure. The hon. Gentleman tries to make light of that. Clearly, it will mean many jobs for Wales, but it is impossible to be precise about numbers because the jobs will be done by local authorities and many other bodies and it is impossible to get the figures.
    Mr. Jeffrey Thomas: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the time has come to stop tinkering round the edges of the problem, which is all that the Government have so far done in Wales? Does not he take the view that we must now have a crash programme for employment in Wales?
    Mr. Peter Thomas: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman heard the figures I gave. These are major additional figures to be spent within the next one and two years.

    Cockle Industry, Burry Inlet
    Mr. Ifor Daviesasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is aware that the South Wales Sea Fisheries Committee is prevented from taking action to reduce the number of oystercatchers in the Burry Inlet, which have a serious detrimental effect on the cockle industry of the area; whether he will consider a scheme to remedy the situation in conjunction with the Nature Conservancy and the National Trust, which own the land there; and if he will make a statement.
    The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Mr. David Gibson Watt): My right hon.
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    and learned Friend and I are considering this matter further in the light of representations that have been made by the Association of Sea Fisheries Committees. I will inform the hon. Member of our conclusions in due course.
    Mr. Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his reply. I hope he will realise this is an urgent matter. As he will be aware, the Home Office took these birds off the protected list in 1963. In the meantime nothing has been done to control their numbers, with the result that the present figure has reached 22,000, an increase of 25 per cent., within recent weeks. May I appeal to the Minister to do everything possible to bring the parties together so that there is some understanding between all those concerned that it is necessary to save this very important industry which is being threatened?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I am aware of the importance of this, and I think that the hon. Member was at the Welsh Office when the last application was made in August, 1969. We shall certainly let him know as soon as we can what our conclusions are.

    Allis Chalmers, Mold
    Sir A. Meyerasked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received in connection with the threatened closure of the Allis Chalmers plant at Mold; and what discussions he has had on this matter.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: In addition to the representations made by my hon. Friend, concern has been expressed to me by the hon. Member for Flint, East (Mr. Barry Jones) and by the county council. I hope to discuss this subject with the hon. Members and representatives of the county shortly.
    Sir A. Meyer: I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that reply. Will he assure the House that he will maintain the closest possible contact with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry? Time is running out for these people at Allis Chalmers' plant and it is urgent to try to find another employer for the factory.
    Mr. Thomas: The Department of Trade and Industry has full details of this factory and will draw the attention of industrialists to it.

    European Economic Community
    Mr. Nicholas Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will ask the Welsh Council to set up a study into shipping facilities from South Wales ports to European countries, as part of the necessary preparation for entry into the European Economic Community.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: The council's recent report on "Wales and the Common Market" took shipping facilities into account. I understand that the council has further work in hand.
    Mr. Edwards: Is my hon. Friend aware that many South Wales industrialists are dissatisfied with the present cargo shipping facilities to European ports and find it extremely expensive to ship out of East Coast and other ports? Will my hon. Friend do his best to ensure that all possible steps are taken to improve these facilities before we go into Europe?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: Certainly, Sir, and I should add that the work being done by the Welsh Council Communications Panel, which will be completed shortly, will also help in this regard.
    Mr. Roy Hughes: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that the real inquiry should be into the sell-out of Welsh port interests by the present Conservative Government in authorising the carrying out of the Port of Bristol West Dock scheme, after the scheme had been rejected by the Labour Government on both commercial and technical grounds?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: The hon. Gentleman has a short memory. If there had not been a Conservative Government last year, we should have seen the nationalisation of all ports in South Wales.

    Local Government Reform
    Mr. Johnasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied that 1st April, 1974, is a realistic date for the commencement of the new structure of local government in Wales; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: Yes, Sir. I am satisfied that the timetable I have proposed is realistic and sensible.
    Mr. John: But does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman read the Western
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    Mail or consider the concern expressed by many officials of local authorities that this date is too early to enable them to prepare properly? Does he not realise that Mid-Glamorgan, the new county which he has carved out by his surrender to the "Keep Cardiff a Tory Capital" lobby, has no administrative centre of its own and nowhere that the new county authority can meet? Does he expect that authority to ask the eisteddfod authorities for the use of the National Eisteddfod Pavilion as the only place where it can meet?
    Mr. Thomas: I have read the article. I notice that the Pontypridd and Llantrisant councils are already starting joint meetings, which I think is very sensible. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that it is very important that a timetable should be adhered to. That is certainly the view of all the local authority associations and the staff association. I think that the time table which I have proposed is the right one.

    Health and Social Services (Increased Expenditure)
    Mr. Alec Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Wales what will be the Welsh share of the recently announced increase of £118 million to be spent in the next four years on health and personal social services.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) on 23rd November, 1971.—[Vol. 826, c. 352.]
    Mr. Jones: I am grateful for that reply, which I read after I had put down my Question. I welcome the Government's conversion to increased public expenditure, particularly in health and social services. Could the hon. Gentleman ensure that a fairly substantial proportion of this money is reserved for spending on services dealing with the chronic sick and disabled people, particularly on the conversion of houses to meet the special needs of the disabled?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that a great deal of this large increase is to be used for the elderly, the mentally ill and the mentally handicapped, and also for children. Taking into account the extra £5½ million

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    announced last year, special additions amounting to £13 million at present prices have been made available for health and personal social services in Wales since the present Government came into office. This excludes infrastructure money totalling £7 million.

    Bala (Growth Town Development)
    Mr. William Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Wales how much additional money has been offered to Bala Urban District Council for its capital expenditure programme in furtherance of his growth towns policy; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: Capital expenditure incurred by Bala Urban District Council in connection with expansion proposals will be financed in the normal way. I hope to discuss the position of the growth towns in Mid-Wales with hon. Members representing the area and representatives of the Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association when I meet them shortly.
    Mr. Edwards: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the small and ambitious little council of Bala, which was encouraged to double the size of its township, has received a grand total of £450 in additional money towards the programme which the Secretary of State and his advisers set for this corporation? If he has no realistic plans to offer for the council, can he tell its representatives not to bother to come and see him on Thursday, since they could at least use their fare money towards their much-needed rate relief?
    Mr. Thomas: I informed the council that I was studying the possibility of widening the application of grants for basic services. This will be discussed at the meeting to which I have referred.

    Newport
    Mr. Roy Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will now pay an official visit to the County Borough of Newport.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: I have already paid several official visits to Newport.
    Mr. Hughes: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that if he were
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    to visit Newport he would find that, within 18 months this once prosperous town has been turned into one of high unemployment, where the latest figures show that 2,339 men are competing for only 82 registered male vacancies? Will he come and explain things to the people of Newport? Then, perhaps, he can be persuaded to resign his office.
    Mr. Thomas: I am fully aware of the unemployment figures in Newport. I am also aware that there is great potential there. If I receive an invitation to visit Newport, I shall be very happy to consider it.

    Industrial Incentives
    Mr. Denzil Daviesasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will ask the Welsh Council to make a further study of the incentives suitable for industrialists to invest in Wales.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: I do not consider it necessary to ask for a further study at this stage but I shall certainly keep the possibility in mind.
    Mr. Davies: In view of the failure of the Government's development area policies, could they not at least try to remedy the situation by allowing industrialists to opt between investment grants and tax allowances where they consider that grants are a superior form of investment incentive?
    Mr. Thomas: I disagree with the hon. Gentleman that the Government's regional and development policies have been a failure. In fact, they offer considerable inducements. With growth in the economy in Wales, I have no doubt that they will be a great attraction to industry in the region.
    Mr. William Edwards: In view of the report published during the weekend about the pessimistic future for manufacturing industry generally, whatever support and incentives are offered, would not the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept that it is time for a radical reappraisal of the whole system of incentives and inducements, and also of the kind of industry which we are trying to get into Wales, in view of the fact that no upturn is likely in manufacturing industry in the next two years?
    Mr. Thomas: The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the massive reflationary policies announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer which are in great contrast to the deflationary policies pursued by our predecessors. There is no doubt that when the economy of the country improves, as it will, Wales will benefit considerably.

    Comprehensive Education (Aberdare)
    Mr. Probertasked the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects fully comprehensive education to be operating in the area of the Urban District of Aberdare.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: Not before 1975.
    Mr. Probert: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the present position causes considerable annoyance and embarrassment to my constituents, inasmuch as the constituency is covered by one education executive yet one half of it has comprehensive education and the other half has not? Will he ask his Department to try to persuade the education authority to speed up matters?
    Mr. Thomas: As the hon. Gentleman appreciates, it is for the local education authorities themselves to decide their building priorities. I would be ready to consider on its merits within the resources available any firm proposal for the area. I will certainly bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said.

    Sully Hospital, Glamorgan
    Mr. Gowerasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is aware of disquiet caused by the plans of the Welsh Hospital Board among those who have worked at Sully Hospital, Glamorgan, and who have contributed to the reputation of Sully Hospital; and what steps he will take to ensure the continuance of the work which has been carried on at Sully Hospital in recent years.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I considered carefully and sympathetically the representations made by staff and others about the future of Sully Hospital and I am glad to acknowledge the high reputation which the hospital has earned. I look forward to the continuation of this work at the University Hospital of Wales and Llan-
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    dough Hospital where it will be better provided for.
    Mr. Gower: Will my hon. Friend take into account the admirable siting of this hospital, its very attractive and spacious buildings, the quality of its staff and the fact that it is one of the very few Welsh hospitals with an international reputation? In that context, will he reappraise the rather harsh decision of the Welsh Hospital Board, with which my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State has tended to agree?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I am afraid that I cannot alter the decision, but I gladly pay tribute to both the staff and the work which has gone on at the hospital. I agree with my hon. Friend about the position and siting of the hospital and join him in wishing the future of this hospital very well indeed.

    Rents
    Mr. McBrideasked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the percentage of the average income in Wales paid in rent at the present time by tenants of council houses and by tenants of privately owned property, respectively; and what the percentage will be, in both cases, on the basis of the enactment of the proposals contained in the Housing Finance Bill.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: No figures are available which show average incomes of council or private tenants, or the average of rents paid. It follows that no forecast can be made on the hon. Member's assumption.
    Mr. McBride: That is a strangely uneducated reply, when one considers that the current average rent in Wales, private and local authority, is £2·18 and that in 1976 it will be £4·18 according to a projection by the Department of the Environment. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that to 67 local authorities an increase of 50 per cent. represents 25 per cent. of the net unrebated rent and that if local authorities do not increase their rents by 1st April next year by the mandatory £1 this will represent in many cases 50 per cent. of the net unrebated rent? Lastly, would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the message of the Bill is that rents will go up and that he and

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    the Secretary of State are guilty of abdication of duty by failing to take a place in the Standing Committee, where the people of Wales would like to see them?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I will study his rather long supplementary question and write to him on it. On the last part of the question, as I said to his hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock), this is the first Government who have ever tried to bring common sense into housing finance.
    Mr. Elystan Morgan: Does the Minister of State mean that his right hon. and learned Friend agreed to this proposal without having any data to enable him to consider what effect this would have in Wales, when his right hon. and learned Friend has said before that he did not think that this would be unduly injurious to Wales? On what was he basing such supposition?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I do not see that that applies to the Question I am trying to answer. The only information is in the form published in the report for 1970 of the family expenditure survey carried out by the Department of Employment. The hon. Gentleman will find a copy of this in the Library.

    Local Authority Contracts (Local Labour)
    Sir A. Meyerasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will issue a circular to local authorities in Wales recommending that they stipulate, when placing contracts, that local labour must be employed as far as possible.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: No, Sir. Local authorities are fully aware of the employment situation in their districts and the need to take all practicable steps to alleviate problems of unemployment.
    Sir A. Meyer: I am well aware of the difficulties in this matter, but is my hon. Friend aware that all too often major contracts, particularly construction contracts, placed in areas of high unemployment result in a very large immigration, very often from Ireland, of building labourers? At the end of the process of construction, the result is that the unemployment level is as high as it was before construction began. Is there
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    not some way in which the situation could be remedied?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: My hon. Friend will agree that specialist labour has to travel from job to job, but there is considerable scope for contractors to employ local labour in addition to specialist elements. If my hon. Friend has any particular cases in mind on which I could help, I should be grateful if he would let me know.
    Mr. William Edwards: Perhaps I could help the Minister on this matter. Is it not a fact that most of the immigrant labour comes in when contracts are given to very large firms already contracting in the areas? Is it not true that the hon. Gentleman's Department has encouraged local authorities in Wales to put contracts out to private firms rather than undertake them with direct labour within the local authority?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: Whether or not that is so, some 160 local authorities in Wales are at present using direct labour to carry out projects.

    M4 (Economic and Social Results)
    Mr. Nicholas Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Wales, what research has been undertaken by the Welsh Office into the economic and social consequences for South Wales of the completion of the M4.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: The decisions to proceed with the various lengths of the M4 were taken after careful examination of all relevant factors. I have no doubt that the motorway will be of considerable economic and social benefit to South Wales.
    Mr. Edwards: Is the Secretary of State satisfied that adequate research has been given to what will undoubtedly be the immense impact of the arrival of this motorway, and that adequate planning advice will be available to local authorities and others once the motorway is nearing completion?
    Mr. Thomas: Yes, Sir, I am satisfied. These projects are very expensive and I assure my hon. Friend that they were not embarked upon without a very thorough examination of the costs and benefits and the many other implications of having these excellent communications in South Wales.
    Mr. Denzil Davies: Is the Secretary of State aware that there is considerable anxiety in the Amman Valley that the road linking Ammanford and its environs with the motorway at Pont Abraham will not be a road of dual carriageway standard? Would the Secretary of State look again at this matter, especially as the Welsh Office indicated at one time that it would be a dual carriageway?
    Mr. Thomas: I shall certainly look at this and write to the hon. Gentleman.

    Cambrian Coast Railway
    Mr. William Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Wales how many deputations he has received in connection with his responsibility for grant-aiding the Cambrian Coast railway line; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: One. I have brought this and the many other representations about the future of the line to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment with whom the responsibility for grant-aiding lies. The next stage will be a further public hearing by the Transport Users Consultative Committee in February.
    Mr. Edwards: Is the Secretary of State aware, if he has read the report of the Transport Users Consultative Committee, that the committee specifically stated in that report that it could not imagine alternative bus services being made available on this route? If that was its first report, is the Secretary of State trying to bully this T.U.C.C. to change its mind and bring in a favourable report?
    Mr. Thomas: No, Sir. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I have no intention of bullying the T.U.C.C. or anyone in respect of their views about this line. The reference to the T.U.C.C. is entirely without prejudice to the ultimate decision on closure proposals. The intention is to consider information which was not available when the committee held its earlier inquiry.

    Steel Industry
    Mr. Roy Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales what recent dis-
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    cussion he has had with the British Steel Corporation concerning the future operations of the steel industry in Wales.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: I am in close touch with developments and I will be personally meeting the Deputy Chairman later this week.
    Mr. Hughes: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman appreciate that there is considerable uncertainty and low morale amongst steel workers in Wales at present? Will he appreciate that the industry has not been helped by the hullaballoo over hiving-off operations and the Government's intentions concerning price increases and about holding up investment plans? Will he prevail upon the British Steel Corporation to discourage rumours prevalent at present of investment by the corporation in a green-field site on the Continent, when we have available green-field sites in South Wales?
    Mr. Thomas: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Joint Steering Group is at present engaged on part two of the review—that is, the financial and economic implications of B.S.C.'s long-term development; and when the group's report is made, many of the anxieties that the hon. Gentlement has mentioned will be allayed.
    Mr. Ellis: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there is a great deal of anxiety in the Wrexham constituency about the Brymbo steelworks and the continuance of that works in the orbit of the British Steel Corporation? Will he ask his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry to decide once and for all whether the works should stay in the B.S.C.? Has the fall-off in production, when the works are already well below operating capacity, anything to do with the fact that the proposed buyer is a major customer?
    Mr. Thomas: I am aware of the importance of the steelworks to the part of Wales to which the hon. Gentleman refers. These decisions are being considered at present within the long-term financial review.

    Pembrey Bambing Range
    Mr. Gwynoro Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations have been made to the Welsh Office in connection with the decision to continue using the Pembrey bombing range; and what reply has been sent.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: Apart from the hon. Member's letter of 9th November to which my hon. Friend the Minister of State replied on 23rd November, Llanelli Rural District Council has also made representations. It has been informed that I have accepted the need for the continued use of the Pembrey range for the reasons given in a letter sent by the Ministry of Defence to the clerk of the council on 15th November.
    Mr. Jones: Is the Secretary of State aware that not only in the area of Pembrey and Kidwelly but throughout Carmarthenshire, there is great concern regarding low-flying aircraft? Apart from the economic consequences of this decision—there is no economic benefit to the county, and Carmarthenshire receives more than its fair share of this activity—will the right hon. and learned Gentleman assure us that despite this decision, there will be no increase in the amount of such low-flying activity and that it will be brought to an end as soon as possible? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman further ensure that the people who benefit from this decision will be those bearing the brunt of the low-flying aircraft activity?
    Mr. Thomas: The level of activity at Pembrey will remain as it is now. As to the value to Carmarthenshire, continued use is necessary in association with Brawdy. An important factor is to ensure the civilian employment at Brawdy.
    Mr. Nicholas Edwards: Will my hon. and learned Friend make it abundantly clear that Pembrey and the Royal Air Force base at Brawdy that it will serve will make an immensely important contribution to employment and the economy of the area, and ensure that this latest Socialist threat to employment in my constituency is firmly repudiated?
    Mr. Thomas: Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend that that is important. It is by the use of Pembrey that one can assure
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    continuation of civilian employment at Brawdy.
    Mr. Denzil Davies: Has the Welsh Office given any consideration to the effect of the continuation of this bombing range on the plans of local authorities to establish a countryside park within the area, which would help to improve the amenities and be of great benefit to the area?
    Mr. Thomas: Yes, Sir. Continued use of Pembrey range should not jeopardise the countryside park project.

    Glamorgan Coastline (Pollution)
    Mr. Gowerasked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he will take to improve arrangements for the disposal of sewage and industrial waste along the Bristol Channel seaboard of Glamorgan, to ensure improvement in the cleanliness and condition of the beaches and the tidal waters.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: Major schemes costing £10 million have been authorised and work is proceeding to improve existing sewage outfall conditions on the Glamorgan coastline. Glamorgan maritime local authorities are also considering further schemes costing f16 million to improve outfall conditions. I shall give them every encouragement to bring their schemes forward.
    Mr. Gower: Has my hon. Friend noted the recent report which claims that pollution is worse in places near Cardiff, Penarth and Barry than in any other part of Britain? In view of the report, will he treat this matter urgently?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: Yes, we are treating this as a very grave matter. The report is being given very careful consideration by officials in the Department.

    Eastern Avenue, Cardiff (Emergency Telephones)
    Mr. Michael Robertsasked the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has to provide adequate telephone communications, for use in emergency, on Eastern Avenue, Cardiff.
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: I do not have this in mind. It is not general policy to provide emergency telephones on all-purpose trunk roads and I am not persuaded that the circumstances on Eastern Avenue make them necessary.
    Mr. Roberts: Is my hon. Friend aware that his reply will cause grave disappointment to users of the road and also to experts on road safety in the South Wales area? Will he reconsider the decision?
    Mr. Gibson-Watt: It is not Government policy to provide emergency telephones on roads other than motorways, and Eastern Avenue is not a motorway. But this matter is at present under consideration at the Welsh Office. If my hon. Friend would like to speak to me about it further, I will look at it.

  TRADE AND INDUSTRY

    Trade Descriptions
    Sir R. Thompsonasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if, following representations made to him by the hon. Member for Croydon, South, he will seek to amend the Trade Descriptions Act, 1968, so as to enable magistrates' courts to award compensation.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Nicholas Ridley): I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) on 15th November.—[Vol. 826, c. 20–21.]
    Sir R. Thompson: Is my hon. Friend aware that I heard that answer and found it profoundly unsatisfactory? Would not he agree that one of the objects of the Act was to protect the consumer? That being so, would it not help the consumer if magistrates could award compensation in appropriate cases? Would he not also agree that an amendment of the law would also help the Government's professed intention to help the victim at the expense of the culprit? Finally, would he agree with me that people who suffer because they accept at face value representations about things subsequently found to be false ought to be compensated without having to go to the expense and frustration of civil proceedings?
    Mr. Ridley: I said that we would review this point when reviewing the working of the Act. I equally told the House on that occasion that if a trader was convicted under the Act he would be well advised to pay compensation voluntarily, because he would not have
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    much chance of succeeding in a civil court in an action brought against him. That goes a long way to making sure that compensation will be available where it is due.
    Mr. Milne: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Act loses most of its validity and a great deal of its strength if he merely throws the victim of someone who has infringed it back on the civil courts? It becomes a reality only if the victim of the misdemeanour is compensated within the terms of the Act itself.
    Mr. Ridley: The hon. Gentleman must not forget the heavy deterrent effect of being convicted of a criminal offence under the Act and of the heavy fines which can and have been assessed on the convicted. That in itself is a major protection to the consumer.
    Sir D. Walker-Smith: Will my hon. Friend, when reviewing the matter in response to the Question of my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Sir R. Thompson), bear in mind that, even with legal aid, civil proceedings may be costly and will certainly involve delay? Is not that a fact which should lead to the adoption, if at all practical, of my hon. Friend's suggestion?
    Mr. Ridley: Given the provisions of the Misrepresentation Act, 1967, and the Civil Evidence Act, 1968, it is almost certain that a trader would have to pay compensation and, therefore, civil proceedings should be obviated by voluntary payments.
    Mr. S. C. Silkin: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a Criminal Justice Bill before Parliament which seeks to enlarge the area of compensation for those who are affected by crime? Will he not therefore organise his review immediately so that this suggestion can be incorporated in the Bill?
    Mr. Ridley: I have no doubt that my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General, who is in charge of that Bill, will have noted what the hon. and learned Gentleman has said.
    Mr. Eadieasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what reply he has sent to the Scottish Knitwear Council further to its letter to him of 9th

    21
    November dealing with Section 8 of the Trade Descriptions Act, 1968.
    Mr. Ridley: A meeting has been held when representatives of the council discussed the possible need for stronger general safeguards against the consumer being misled into believing that imported goods are British.
    Mr. Eadie: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that what the Scottish Knitwear Council is after is a measure of fair trading and proper identification in the labelling of goods? Is he further aware that many consumers are being swindled by companies selling goods on the basis that they are genuine Scottish knitwear products? Will he give careful consideration to this swindle to which our consumers are being subjected?
    Mr. Ridley: I have a copy of the letter from the Scottish Knitwear Council before me. As I understand it, all the points it makes will be met by the Bill which my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South-East (Mr. Peel) intends to bring into the House.
    Mr. Bray: Will my hon. Friend agree that this question extends far beyond the issue of the Scottish Knitwear Council into the province of textiles and footwear?
    Mr. Ridley: It seems to me that it applies to all goods, that it should be impossible to deceive the consumer as to the origin of the goods and that legislation in this matter should apply to all goods and not to any particular category.

    Regional Investment
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what new plans he has for increasing public investment in the regions.
    The Minister for Aerospace (Mr. Frederick Corfield): Since the hon. Member tabled this Question my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced many helpful new measures on 23rd November, 1971.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does not the hon. Gentleman recognise the great contradiction between the statement of the Chancellor last week and the determination, as pronounced in the White Paper of October, 1970, to cut public expendi-
    22
    ture? When will the Chancellor's belated announcement last week about increasing public investment in the regions have its effect on the unemployment figures?
    Mr. Corfield: I do not acknowledge a contradiction for the very good reason that the timing is quite different. One has to be cautious in making forecasts as to the effect of my right hon. Friend's announcement, but I would expect that it would be certainly within the next six months.
    Dame Irene Ward: Will my hon. Friend accept that already in the North, I am glad to say, some commitments by local authorities have already been brought forward and that I am grateful for this? At the same time, will he convey to the Secretary of State for Social Services and the Secretary of State for Education and Science that I am looking forward to some very good announcements from them for speedier procedures to meet commitments which could be brought forward? I am looking forward with keen anxiety to hearing good news in this connection.
    Mr. Corfield: I am always grateful for my hon. Friend's gratitude and I will convey her feelings to my right hon. Friends.

    Turnhouse Airport
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on the progress being made in the development of Turnhouse Airport at Edinburgh.
    Mr. Corfield: Substantial development of Edinburgh Airport must await the outcome of the British Airports Authority's planning application about which a public inquiry is now in progress.
    Mr. Hamilton: Can the hon. Gentleman indicate whether progress can be made meanwhile in improving the terminal facilities for passengers which have been a disgrace for far too many years?
    Mr. Corfield: If the improvements which the hon. Gentleman has in mind require planning permission, the answer is "No". If improvements internally can be made without planning permission, the answer would be "Yes".

    Steel Industry (Oil Exploitation Equipment)
    Mr. Douglasasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what discussions he has held with the British Steel Corporation regarding its ability to tender for equipment in connection with the exploitation of North Sea oil.
    Mr. Ridley: None; this is a matter for the Corporation to determine in consultation with the oil companies concerned.
    Mr. Douglas: May I crave the indulgence of the House to say how sorry we are to hear of the death of Mr. Hugh Stenhouse? It is a great loss to Scotland and to Scottish industry generally.
    Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
    Mr. Douglas: In relation to my Question is the hon. Gentleman aware that we are extremely perturbed about the possibility of loss of jobs in Scotland due to the lack of initiative, for example, of the British Steel Corporation in relation to supply facilities such as steel construction for the exploitation of North Sea oil, and about the direct loss of jobs in Glasgow because of the closure of the Tube Division office? What is the hon. Gentleman going to do about it?
    Mr. Ridley: I join the hon. Gentleman's expression of regret at the untimely death of Mr. Stenhouse.
    I understand that the Corporation has obtained a large Gas Council order for large diameter pipes and I see no reason why it should not compete for these other orders in the same way.
    Mr. Michael Foot: Has not the Department had some discussion with the corporation on the question of much of this equipment and the reports which have appeared recently? Can the hon. Gentleman confirm that discussions are now proceeding between British Petroleum and the British Steel Corporation on the specifications required and that there is every possibility that the Corporation could meet these specifications? Will he also confirm that the stories that have been published in, for example, the Glasgow Herald are grossly misleading? Surely the Government have shown some interest in the matter.
    Mr. Ridley: The Iron Steel Act, which the hon. Gentleman's own Government brought in, expressly forbids Ministers from interfering in the commercial management of the corporation.
    Mr. Foot: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the present Government, for purposes which we do not approve, have established quite different relations between Government and the steel industry from those which were laid down in the Act? Can he not use this possibility to discuss matters of major importance about which a Question was put on the Order Paper? Surely the hon. Gentleman should be able to give the Government's view on such an important question.
    Mr. Ridley: I can only give the Government's views about matters for which I have statutory authority. The hon. Gentleman knows very well that this Government, like the last one, have no power to intervene in commercial decisions of the corporation of this sort.

    Rolls-Royce Sub-contractors (Development Assistance)
    Mr. Wilkinsonasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will now take further measures to aid sub-contractors to Rolls-Royce (1971) Limited following the liquidation of Rolls-Royce Limited, in view of their need to fund new technical development and expansion.
    Mr. Corfield: No, Sir. It is for Rolls-Royce (1971) Ltd. to arrange for continuity of supply of components for its future programmes.
    Mr. Wilkinson: While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, and reminding him that the renegotiation of the RB211 contract assured continued employment in the regions in the sub-contractual sector, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he could expedite the price negotiations for the assets of Rolls-Royce Limited, because many millions of £s and the expansion capability of sub-contractors are involved? These are two important questions.
    Mr. Corfield: My hon. Friend will appreciate that my power to influence the speed of these negotiations is limited. I assure him that the Government will

    25
    do their best to help in any way they can. But it is a very complex calculation and it will take time.
    Mr. Bishop: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is not good enough to leave this matter to Rolls-Royce entirely but that the Government should give some indication of future prospects? Is he further aware that the anxieties of the hon. Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Wilkinson) are shared by many employees of sub-contracting firms and Rolls-Royce itself and that it would help to give assurance if we could have the early issue of a White Paper?
    Mr. Corfield: The White Paper will be issued very soon. I simply do not follow what the hon. Gentleman implies about giving assurances. I am not in a position to put a value on these assets, and that is the crux of the problem.

    DRUG PEDDLING
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Attorney-General how many prosecutions have taken place in November against people accused of drug peddling; and if he will make a statement.
    The Attorney-General (Sir Peter Rawlinson): The figures for November are not yet available. In the first six months of 1971, the latest period for which information is available, 238 persons were proceeded against in England, Wales and Scotland for unlawful supply of drugs.
    Mr. Dalyell: Whereas those who are suffering from drug addiction need treatment and help, may I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether he is satisfied that even with 238 peddlers having been brought to prosecution everything possible is being done to identify drug peddlers at the earliest possible moment?
    The Attorney-General: As the hon. Gentleman recognises, there are difficulties in identifying the peddler. When it is possible to bring a prosecution, that is done. I assure the hon. Member that those who peddle drugs will indeed be subject to police inquiries and, wherever possible, prosecutions will be brought.
    Mr. Elystan Morgan: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman appreciate that it is 21 months since this House gave a Second Reading to the Misuse of Drugs Bill, which incorporated in its provisions a new level of penalties for those who push and peddle drugs? When will these important provisions be brought into operation?
    The Attorney-General: I cannot advise the House about that, but if the hon. Gentleman will table a Question on the subject I will certainly answer it.

    MR. S. BRETT
    Mr. Arthur Lewisasked the Attorney-General whether he will direct the Director of Public Prosecutions to accede to a police request to prosecute prisoner S. Brett, in view of the admission by Brett that he and others had planned to carry out a robbery on 3rd September, 1970 at the Great Eastern Hotel, Liverpool Street, and the fact that the police investigations proved this to be the case.
    The Attorney-General: No, Sir. I am satisfied that it would not be in the public interest to institute such proceedings.
    Mr. Lewis: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman look at this case again because this man, who is a convicted criminal—the facts can be verified by the Attorney-General if he consults the police—claims that there should not have been a prosecution because he is innocent of the crime which he allegedly committed and for which he was convicted? Despite his criminal record, should he not be given a chance to prove his innocence of the crime for which he was convicted, although he admits to being guilty of the other crime?
    The Attorney-General: The prisoner referred to in the hon. Gentleman's Question was convicted of conspiracy to rob premises at Brentwood and was sentenced to seven years' imprisonment. He made application for leave to appeal and that was refused. He is now applying to the full court and that matter is awaiting hearing. I understand that the grounds of appeal are that he was not conspiring to rob at Brentwood because he was conspiring to rob the Great Eastern Hotel.

    JUDGE MICHAEL ARGYLE, Q.C. (THREATS)
    Mr. Arthur Lewisasked the Attorney-General what action he has taken or intends taking in the light of threats against Judge Michael Argyle, Q.C., and his family.
    The Attorney-General: The police have investigated the deplorable threats against Judge Argyle and his family but have not been able to identify the persons responsible for those threats. It has not, therefore, been possible to take any action against such persons.
    Mr. Lewis: May we have an assurance that the police will continue to make investigations into this matter because it was reported in the Press that there was at least prima facie evidence to show that the police knew who were at the back of these threats? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that if that is so, the police should continue with their investigations?
    The Attorney-General: The police made investigations and inquiries at the time these calls and threats were made, but there is no evidence against the person who was responsible for them.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Will my right hon. and learned Friend also investigate the matter of the besetting of the judge's house and the siege which Mrs. Argyle and her family had to endure for many weeks if not months?
    The Attorney-General: My hon. and learned Friend is absolutely correct. Considerable distress and annoyance was caused to the judge and his family, and in particular to Mrs. Argyle, on 6th, 7th and 8th August. As I have said, this deplorable activity is obviously to be condemned by everybody.

    DOMESTIC PROPERTIES (REGISTRATION)
    Mr. Loughlinasked the Attorney-General if he will introduce legislation designed to require the registration of particulars of individual domestic properties.
    The Attorney-General: No. The Government's policy is to extend registra-
    28
    tion of title under the Land Registration Acts.
    Mr. Loughlin: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that I am fully conversant with the Land Registration Act, 1925, under Section 130 of which he has power to extend registration? Is he not failing in his duty by not so extending it, remembering that the effect of doing so would be to cut the conveyancing costs of solicitors by one-third, according to my information? In view of the difficulty which particularly youngsters face in buying houses, would not this make a substantial contribution?
    The Attorney-General: The Law Society made recommendations in 1965 on what might be called the log book principle, which the hon. Gentleman probably has in mind. However, the Law Commission advised against them and the Government of the day did not take the recommendations up. It is the proposal to continue with the substantial progress that is being made, and now some 22½ million people live in compulsory registration areas, which is about half the population.
    Mr. Frank Allaun: Naturally the Law Commission would give that advice because it has a vested interest in the matter. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman reconsider this matter, because if both sides of the House are in favour of home ownership and really want to encourage it, this would be a reasonable way to go about giving that encouragement?
    The Attorney-General: The hon. Gentleman must have misunderstood me. It was the solicitors who made the suggestion to the Law Society but the Law Commission, which was established by the Labour Government, rejected it. The solicitors made the proposal but the Law Commission said the best way to proceed was in the way that is now being done.
    Sir Elwyn Jones: While for once I regret that I must repudiate what my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) said in his observation about the Law Commission, for which we are immensely grateful in all parts of the House, may I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to accept that there is a case for speeding

    29
    up the process of registration, which would make speedier and cheaper the task of conveyancing?
    The Attorney-General: I agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman and it was the method about which I was disagreeing with his hon. Friend. I agree that the procedure and movement forward on land registration is of great advantage.
    Mr. Loughlin: On a point of order. In view of the Minister's unsatisfactory Answer. I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

    EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
    Sir D. Walker-Smithasked the Attorney-General what increase in the staff of the Lord Chancellor's Department will be required for the scrutiny of European Economic Community legislation and giving effect to harmonisation therewith; and what will be the cost of such increase.
    The Attorney-General: Firm estimates are not yet possible, but at the most half a dozen additional staff may be required; the tasks referred to by my right hon. and learned Friend do not primarily fall to the Lord Chancellor's Department.
    Sir D. Walker-Smith: As the amount of work that will be required to be done is not yet ascertainable and in view of the possibility that it may be very heavy indeed, may I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to be astute and avoid the dangers both of improper scrutiny and undue strain and overwork on the part of these learned gentlemen?
    The Attorney-General: This is certainly a matter which is obviously under consideration. As my right hon. and learned Friend will appreciate, each Department deals with its own responsibility. For example, the additional lawyers in the Lord Chancellor's office will deal mainly with the subject of what is known in the House as lawyer's law.
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: Will the Attorney-General answer the last part of his right hon. and learned Friend's Question, which he perhaps unconsciously avoided, and
    30
    give us an idea of the cost of this exercise?
    The Attorney-General: The hon. Gentleman is right and I apologise to my right hon. and learned Friend for not answering that part of his Question. The disclosure now of any cost is impossible because it would be premature to give an estimate at this stage.
    Sir Elwyn Jones: Could not the assistance of the right hon. and learned Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith) be enlisted for this important work, now that the Bar has recently suffered his retirement?
    The Attorney-General: That has indeed been a loss to my profession, but I must repeat that the tasks do not fall primarily to the Lord Chancellor's Department; and, as I said, very few extra staff will be required.

    COMPTON REPORT
    Mr. George Cunninghamasked the Attorney-General whether he will refer to the Director of Public Prosecutions, for consideration, the facts stated in the Compton Report with a view to the initiation of proceedings against Ministers and others concerned with them in the United Kingdom for conspiring to commit criminal assault on internees in Northern Ireland.
    The Attorney-General: No, Sir.
    Mr. Cunningham: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman recognise that this is a very grave matter and that there is at the very least good prima facie evidence for believing that offences have been committed not only in Northern Ireland by those who have breached the law in this respect but by those who, within the English jurisdiction, arranged to do so? Will the Attorney-General not at least remove the doubt which exists in the minds of many people on this point by arranging for the matter to be investigated? Will he at some other time make a fuller statement on the subject and explain his reasons?
    The Attorney-General: As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, the note of interrogation is set out in paragraph 46, page 12, of the Compton Report. It sets

    31
    out the rules which were laid down in 1965 and revised in 1967. Nowhere in those rules are there any instructions or requirement authorising the commission of any criminal offence.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Is not this unfounded and scurrilous Question music in the ears of the gunmen?
    The Attorney-General: I appreciate what my hon. Friend says, but I am answering a Question relating to criminal prosecution.
    Mr. S. C. Silkin: Have the Government given any consideration at all to whether the Compton findings reveal matters which are consistent or inconsistent with our obligations under Article 3 of the European Convention which, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows, prohibits inhuman and degrading treatment?
    The Attorney-General: The Question to which I have directed my reply relates to the institution of criminal proceedings.

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  SUPPLY
  [2ND ALLOTTED DAY],—considered.

  NORTHERN IRELAND
  Mr. Speaker: Before I call the right hon. Gentleman to move the Motion, I would inform the House that I have selected the Amendment in the name of the Prime Minister and other right hon. Gentlemen.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That this House regrets the failure of Her Majesty's Government's present policies in Northern Ireland and the serious deterioration in the relationship between the communities; pays tribute to the courage and resolution of Her Majesty's Forces; regrets the situation in which they have been placed by the decision on internment taken by the Stormont Government: declines to support the continuance of internment without trial and the extraction of information from detainees by methods which must never be permitted in a civilised society; welcomes the initiative taken by the Leader of the Opposition for a solution to these problems; calls upon Her Majesty's Government to respond constructively to this approach including the transfer of responsibility for security to Westminster and the opening of talks leading to the establishment of a constitutional commission.—[Mr. Callaghan.]
  3.33 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Reginald Maudling): I beg to move, to leave out from 'House' to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:
  "pays tribute to the courage and resolution of Her Majesty's Forces and supports Her Majesty's Government in the combined policies of putting an end to violence and seeking, through discussion with all concerned who are opposed to the use of violence, means whereby there may be for both communities in Northern Ireland an active, guaranteed and permanent rôle in the public affairs of the Province".
  It is my earnest hope that this Amendment will commend itself to the House this evening because I personally attach very high importance to proceeding in this grave matter, wherever possible and to the maximum extent possible, by agreement both in Parliament here and in Northern Ireland.
  I think there are two very good reasons for wishing to proceed as far as possible by agreement. The first is this: only

  33
  agreed solutions will endure. We must surely at this time seek an agreed solution that will last. We cannot look forward to another recrudescence of this violence and tragedy in a few years' time. We cannot look forward to the continuing cycle of violence that we have seen in Ireland over many decades. It must be our objective to find a lasting solution. I emphasise once again that a lasting solution can only really come from continuing agreement.
  Secondly, I hope this Amendment will be accepted by the House as a whole because I believe this would be the wish of all those who elected us to this House. The people of this country want to see an end to violence and a return of peace. They are looking to those who are responsible for giving leadership to provide that agreed solution. They look to the two communities and their leaders in Northern Ireland—political and religious leaders, leaders of industry, trade unions, social and professional leaders. They look to those who have the responsibility of providing leadership to seek agreed means of reaching a solution. Also, I believe that in this House people are looking to us to pool our ideas and share our counsel in order to try to reach a solution that will endure.
  I need not stress the gravity of this situation. I need not stress, I hope, that this is a national issue, of national significance. I need not. I hope, stress that the object of all concerned should be the same—to establish in Northern Ireland the same standards of life and government as in the rest of the United Kingdom, the same standards of security, of non-discrimination and of a political system based no longer on the tragic sectarian divisions which have persisted so long in Northern Ireland. These surely must be agreed ob;ectives of Parliament.
  I have other reasons in more detail for commending this Amendment to the House. It contains three points, and three points only. First, which is common both to the original Motion and to the Amendment itself, it pays tribute to the courage and resolution of Her Majesty's Forces. Second, it contains a policy of putting an end to violence, which seems to me to coincide entirely with the second principle quoted by the Leader of the Opposition last week; namely, that we must seek
  34
  "a security solution, the assertion of effective law and order, in that the men of violence must be either destroyed or compelled to retire."
  That is the second point, and once again it seems to me to be wholly beyond controversy in this House.
  The third point is that side by side with a security solution we must also be seeking a political solution. Once again, to quote the Leader of the Opposition,
  "progress to a far-reaching political solution."
  I would say in all humility that the words that we have used repeatedly of reaching a solution by agreement
  "whereby there may be for both communities in Northern Ireland an active, guaranteed and permanent rôle in the public affairs of the Province"
  express as well as can be done the political objective and the political solution. Therefore, this Amendment says three things—praise and support for the Army, the need for a security solution, and the need at the same time for a political solution.
  I think it would be sad indeed if the House of Commons or any substantial body of the House of Commons were to reject that three point programme—
  Mr. Stanley Orme: What about internment?
  Mr. Maudling: I am hoping to deal with this matter as seriously as did the Leader of the Opposition last week, and I hope that I may have, as he had last week, an uninterrupted hearing in the course of what I have to say.
  I will deal in due course, as I must, with the words of the Opposition Motion, but first I deal with those three points which, as I say, are the essence of our Amendment. The first is: praise for the courage and resolution of the Army. I hope that everybody agrees with that, and, therefore, I make no further comment on it. The second is: progress towards a security solution. My hon. Friend the Minister of State on Thursday dealt in considerable detail with the progress that is being made, and I have little to add to it. I think there is no doubt that the security forces, the Army and the R.U.C., for whose courage and efforts unstinting praise is merited, have been making considerable progress. Evidence of that certainly is to be found in the recent statement by the leader of the official I.R.A.

  35
  Saturday's outburst of violence may well have been the reaction to the official I.R.A. statement about the Provisionals. One does not know. But, as the Minister of State said on Thursday, we must expect, before this campaign is brought to an end, further incidents of this kind we must expect further terrorism and further setbacks from time to time. I believe that progress is being steadily made by the security forces. There is still a long way to go, but there can, surely, be no doubt that the security forces must be supported in their endeavours until, in the words of the Leader of the Opposition, the gunmen are
  "either destroyed or compelled to retire."
  I shall concentrate today, as I think the House would wish, on the political solution. That is all I wish to say on the military side of the problem. I shall refer to a number of the detailed proposals put forward by the right hon. Gentleman in our debate last Thursday, and I start, deliberately, by referring to this passage in his speech:
  "I hope that the Prime Minister and the Government will give careful consideration to these proposals which I have put forward and that they will be ready in any case to agree to my suggestion of inter-party talks in this House as a preliminary to similar talks between all the main parties in Westminster and Stormont, leading then, if agreement can be reached, to consideration of the wider proposals I have outlined, or of any other alternative proposals which the Government or anyone else may table."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th November, 1971; Vol. 826, c, 1585–93.]
  I say categorically that the Government welcome that proposal in the spirit in which it was put forward. We accept it entirely. We are perfectly willing to enter into talks on the basis of the right hon. Gentleman's words which I have quoted.
  If I may add a personal word, in all the problems I have faced one way or another from this Bench over a number of years I have never known anything which has hung round one's shoulders so heavily and so sadly day by day, and often more than day by day. I do not believe that any considerations of personal or political interest are admissible in this context. All solutions, from whatever quarter they come, and must be examined fully, honestly and sincerely. That is our duty as a Parliament.
  36
  Against that background, we must consider, first, the limitations—they are considerable—within which we are working in looking for a solution and see whether we can agree about them. Second, we must, I believe, agree about the importance of talks with those who can speak for the minority. As I said earlier, agreement is essential to a lasting solution. Agreement can come only through talk and discussion. Those who refuse to talk are opting for solutions not by agreement but by dictation, and that would be a very bad thing for all the people of Northern Ireland.
  I put forward now what seem to me to be the basic principles of any solution, and, judging from what was said last week, I hope that these principles will command support from both sides of the House.
  First, a solution must come not by violence but by consent. Second, Northern Ireland will remain part of the United Kingdom unless and until its Parliament and people decide otherwise. This has been stressed time and again. I was struck by the words of Cardinal Conway a little time ago:
  "No one in his sane senses would try to bomb one million Protestants into a united Ireland."
  Third, troops from Her Majesty's Forces must be available in support of the civil power in Northern Ireland, as they would be in any other part of the United Kingdom, and for so long as they are needed, as they would be in any other part of the United Kingdom.
  Next, the same standards of impartial government must be established and maintained in Northern Ireland as in the rest of the United Kingdom. I believe that the Downing Street Declaration on human rights, to which reference was made last week, will go a long way, if not the whole way, to establish non-discrimination in these matters. That declaration has been accepted by succeeding Governments here and by succeeding Governments in Northern Ireland, and it must remain the cornerstone of policy in these matters.
  Next, I accept, as the right hon. Gentleman said last week, that direct rule of Northern Ireland from this country is to be contemplated only as a last resort and not as a deliberate act of policy.

  37
  Next, I say that both the majority and minority communities have their rights, which should be respected, and both are entitled to expect an opportunity to play their full part in the public affairs of the country in which they live. No individual should be debarred from public service in any form by reason of his religious convictions.
  The final principle which I put forward—I hope for agreement—is that it is as legitimate to believe in and hope for a united Ireland as it is to believe in and hope for a federal United States of Europe, and it is not legitimate to try to impose these objectives by force, be it physical force or political force.
  Those seem to me to be principles which not only emerge from previous discussion on this matter but emerge clearly also from the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. It follows that we should seek a system wherein all men of good will can work together for the peace and prosperity of Northern Ireland, whatever their views of the ultimate future, respecting what is the majority view at the time, the majority view, democratically established, on the constitutional position of Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom.
  I think that many people here find it difficult to see what the obstacle is now. They say, "The Border will not be abolished now or in foreseeable years to come. Both communities will continue for many years to live together in Northern Ireland until the day comes, if ever it conies, when they decide to go into a united Ireland. Realising these realities, why do they not recognise the facts, why do they not agree to put this question aside for 20 years at least, get on with the job of restoring peace, and start the reconstruction of the battered economy of Northern Ireland?"
  That is what many people in this country feel, and with a good deal of reason. Many suggestions have been put forward to that end. People suggest, for example, that we might have a referendum every 20 years. Many possible solutions and ideas have been canvassed, all of which have difficulties but all of which I find interesting and well worth consideration because they are based on common sense. Although, sometimes, one begins to wonder whether common sense is necessarily a recipe for success in Irish
  38
  political problems, I still cling to the belief that ideas based on common sense are the best ideas for anyone to take up.
  It struck me that the plan put forward by the Leader of the Opposition was, in effect, a variant on that theme of putting the Border on one side for a time and meanwhile getting on and working together to restore the life of Northern Ireland. It was, if I may say so, a scheme both novel and ingenious, though I think that one is entitled to doubt whether it is entirely realistic in the form put forward.
  I think it difficult in present circumstances realistically to see much chance of the majority of people in Northern Ireland voting to go into a united Ireland even on the terms proposed by the right hon. Gentleman. Also, I think it difficult, in practice, to believe that the Republic would accept the Queen as the head of the Commonwealth or would accept the proposals for internal reform which were an integral part of the right hon. Gentleman's plan. But I see no reason at all why these ideas should not be discussed and thrashed out, for from discussed and thrashing out other ideas may arise, other ideas possibly not conceivable at the moment. The more all ideas and solutions are canvassed and discussed, the more chances are there of reaching some solution. I believe with great conviction that from talks and discussion no harm can come, but from a refusal to discuss nothing can come but harm and, possibly, destruction.
  I welcome the greatest possible degree of co-operation between North and South in all practical ways, and if, by agreement, the North and the South should at some time decide to come together in a United Ireland, if, by agreement, this should be their wish, then not only would we not obstruct that solution but, I am sure, the whole British people would warmly welcome it. But unless and until such a radical solution can come about by agreement, we must deal with the practical problems which face us, the practical means whereby the two communities can live together within Northern Ireland as it is constituted at present.
  I see the grievances of the minority as twofold. First, there are those that touch on the ordinary business of everyday life. Discrimination between Catholics and Protestants, discrimination in housing, discrimination in jobs, is among the many

  39
  problems of everyday life which are the first cause of grievance to the Catholic minority.
  I think that the second and possibly now the more important is the feeling among the minority of being second-class citizens, of never effectively participating in major decisions affecting the Northern Ireland community as a whole. I can understand their saying in the circumstances, "If we can never participate in major decisions for the whole of our Province, how can we belong to this Province at all?" One understands that those are the two main problems, and I will deal with them in turn.
  I still believe that the Downing Street Declaration clearly pointed the way to disposing of the first problem, that of individual discrimination in jobs and housing and other matters of daily life. Certainly I was sustained in this belief by what I heard in discussions with members of the minority community. The Downing Street Declaration set out a plan, which we inherited, and which we have carried on faithfully, as have succeeding Governments in Northern Ireland, to dispose of this problem of personal discrimination.
  Much still remains to be done, of course, in matters of housing allocation and job allocation, in all the matters set out in the Northern Ireland White Paper about progress on the Downing Street Declaration, for time is necessary in all these matters. If there is disappointment about the results so far to be seen on the ground, it is not for any lack of willingness on the part of the Government, or Mr. Faulkner's Government, or Lord Mayola's Government, to proceed with the programme, but arises simply because of the fact that time is necessary to get results on the ground so that people may sense them and be made confident by them. The programme of non-discrimination laid down in the Downing Street Declaration was right and continues to be right, and that will deal with the first of the two problems.
  But, of course, it does not deal with the second, the feeling that participation at all levels should be available to the minority as well as the majority community. Here we have to face—and I have said this in the House more than once—the fact that our democratic practice
  40
  here is not necessarily applicable in all details to the situation in Northern Ireland. The distinction is that here we battle one party with another on political, economic and social issues, and there is always a prospect of change. There the battle is far more fixed. The battle lines are drawn, and, whatever views there are about these essential matters, the minority community feels inevitably that invariably it will be defeated in what is a sectarian rather than a political battle.
  I do not believe—I think that the right hon. Gentleman shares this view; I have heard him express it more than once—that there can be full political health in Northern Ireland until the issues of politics there are the same as the issues of politics here. That is an ideal and still a long way off, and meanwhile we have to deal with the problem of minority participation in the areas of the management of the public affairs of the province.
  Mr. Stanley R. McMaster: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the main division is not a sectarian division, but is between certain fanatical Republicans and Loyalists, that the political division is between Republicanism and those who are loyal to Queen and country?
  Mr. Maudling: Perhaps I have not chosen my words carefully enough. I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Perhaps I should refer to the division between the majority and the minority communities. It is not a religious struggle, and that is why I was careful to say that it was a sectarian battle. It is a struggle between two communities where the voting lines are drawn on a community basis rather than a political basis.
  Mr. A. W. Stallard: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the issue is the Border? That is what he has said, but he is trying to say it without spelling it out. Let him spell it out. The issue at every election in the Six Counties in the past 50 years has been the Border.
  Mr. Maudling: What I am saying is that the issue in the battleline of politics may be the Border, but in reality it is not the Border, because everyone knows that the Border will not be changed in the foreseeable future because there is not a majority in favour of such a change,

  41
  and everyone agrees that there cannot be a change unless the majority vote for it. The real issue of politics in Northern Ireland is how, within the existing boundaries, two communities can live together. That is what really matters.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Maudling: I should like to be allowed to continue. I am trying to deal consecutively with the second problem of the minority community.
  There are three aspects of what they are entitled to ask, as they do ask and as we recognise in our policy. They ask that they should have an active, guaranteed and permanent rôle in the life of the Province. The first is in the administration of the day-by-day business of running the country—the housing authority and the police authority. There are now many good examples of minority participation in administrative organs of this kind which are working well. The police authority, which was quoted last week, is a very good example. The Londonderry Development Commission has been an effective example, and the housing authority is another. The level of administration is extremely important in the day-to-day life of the people. It is a level at which it is already agreed policy that there should be proper minority participation in these organs of Government or administration.
  Secondly, there is the position of the minority in Parliament. The proposals put forward by Mr. Faulkner go a very long way: proposals for reform of the House, expansion of the Senate and consideration of proportional representation and for a committee system, which, in according status to the minority, goes much further than that accorded in this House, or, so far as I know, in any other democratic Assembly.
  Any impartial observer would agree that the proposals of the Northern Ireland Government for the reform of Parliament fully meet the requirements of the minority for a proper guaranteed right of participation in the parliamentary system. What the minority cannot ask for in Parliament is a right of the minority to outvote the majority. It is a hard fact, as the Leader of the Opposition said last week, that the majority also have their rights. But when it comes to
  42
  participation by the minority in the parliamentary system, it seems to me that the offers made by the Northern Ireland Government are very far-seeing indeed.
  Mr. Kevin McNamara: Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that in his Green Paper Mr. Faulkner talks about Northern Ireland being a State? In fact, it is not a State, for it is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Therefore, to talk in terms of Cabinet responsibility, as Mr. Faulkner does, is not in line with the actual situation. The minority have a right to participate in immediate decisions about their future and about the administration of these counties in the same way as any minority party has in any county council committee in the country.
  Mr. Maudling: I am coming to that, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be patient. The position is properly recognised by the fact that I was invited by Mr. Faulkner to preside over interparty discussions to reach a constitutional solution on the lines put forward, an invitation which recognised that all parties, and particularly Her Majesty's Government, must be party to any satisfactory solution and must participate in the guaranteeing of such a satisfactory solution.
  I was coming next to the question of government, because, frankly, this is the most difficult aspect of the problem. It is difficult because of the practical difficulties which arise because of the need for a Government to take decisions and the need for any Government to be an effective team if it is to work. We must not under-estimate these practical difficulties. Anyone who has participated in government at any level knows very well from experience how genuine these difficulties are. But nor need we be daunted by them, for I am sure that they can be overcome.
  I believe, however, that they can be overcome only by discussion, and here above all I emphasise the need for discussion involving the elected leaders of the minority community. That is why I welcomed the efforts of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) to persuade the leaders of the S.D.L.P. and the

  43
  Nationalist Party to come to these discussions, because this problem can be solved only by discussion.
  I was struck by some words used by Dr. Newe when first appointed to the Cabinet of Northern Ireland. He said:
  "It also seems to me indisputable that, at this point in time, a majority wish to retain the constitutional link with Great Britain, and this being so I do not believe that active discussion of imminent change is realistic or profitable. However I strongly believe that citizens here have the right by all legitimate peaceful and democratic means to advocate and to work for the ultimate unification of Ireland if that is their aspiration: and the Prime Minister has assured me that he also affirms that right"
  That is the spirit in which this problem should be tackled.
  Mr. Maurice Foley: The right hon. Gentleman will recall that in his Green Paper Mr. Faulkner entirely ruled out anyone pursuing the long-term aim of a united Ireland from belonging to his Cabinet. It would facilitate matters enormously if the right hon. Gentleman would indicate whether he agrees with that, or whether in the interests of peace and harmony in the United Kingdom he will say whether he sees the possibility of people who believe in a United Ireland being brought about in the long term by peaceful means belonging in any real sense to the executive organs of Government in Northern Ireland.
  Mr. Maudling: I do not agree with that interpretation of the Green Paper. What I have just quoted is the complete answer to the hon. Gentleman—that there is now in the Cabinet in Northern Ireland someone who believes strongly in having the right to work for the ultimate unification of Ireland, if that is the aspiration, and who has been assured by Mr. Faulkner that that was his view, too. That is the latest statement of the position, and it is a position which we should clearly understand.
  My strong conviction is that no system can be devised, however ingenious, that will work in the absence of a genuine will to make it work. We must recognise that such a genuine will is not particularly conspicuous at present. But the whole point of what we should be trying to do in Northern Ireland now is to promote and expand and increase the will to work together among people who will work together and without that will no ingenious
  44
  constitutional gimmicks can possibly produce succes.
  That is why I very much regret the unwillingness of the political leaders of the minority community to participate in these discussions. I say once again that without participation there cannot be agreement and without agreement there cannot be a lasting solution. Their major reason for non-participation is said to be internment, and we must face this difficulty. The Leader of the Opposition referred to internment very carefully. He made a number of detailed suggestions about its operation which I will certainly discuss with Mr. Faulkner, who is constitutionally responsible, and I have already set that in hand.
  I can tell the House that it has been announced today that a Red Cross report on conditions in Long Kesh has been published. There will be visiting again next month. It has also been announced today that a board of visitors will be set up for Long Kesh similar to the system operating in a number of prisons in this country and in Northern Ireland whereby complaints of ill treatment may be made to an impartial body.
  Mr. Russell Kerr: May I inquire how it comes about that Mr. Faulkner and Co. are responsible for the policy of internment?
  Mr. Maudling: Because it happens to be the law.
  Mr. Sidney Bidwell rose—
  Mr. MaudlingI do not wish to give way. I am trying to make a consecutive argument. The Leader of the Opposition was not interrupted, and I have already given away possibly more than enough.
  The Leader of the Opposition put forward a number of positive suggestions for changing the present system, and, of course, they will be carefully examined. Indeed, I have already made arrangements to set the examination in hand. But, clearly, the Leader of the Opposition did not support the claim that there could be an end to internment. Absolutely clearly he said that it should cease as soon as the necessary conditions existed for an improvement in confidence. No one can say that those conditions exist at present. The S.D.L.P. should heed

  45
  the words of the Leader of the Opposition, because by continuing to refuse to take part in discussions it is merely prolonging conditions which I know that it genuinely wants to see brought to an end.
  These are the reasons which I put forward for supporting the Government's Amendment. I hope that I have shown that over the range I have covered of the limits within which we are compelled to operate there is categorically and obviously a broad measure of agreement between the Government and the Leader of the Opposition in his speech and the plan that he put forward last Thursday.
  I deal briefly, but I hope adequately, with the Opposition's Motion and the reasons that they have given for wishing to divide the House on this occasion. I must say once again, and I hope that I do not sound pious, that to divide the House on this occasion is a very serious step. It will have considerable repercussions here and in Northern Ireland, not least, I think, for the security forces there. Before deciding to do so, right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite must be clear on what grounds they have decided to do so.
  Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite regret
  "the failure of Her Majesty's Government's present policies".
  Our policies are to restore law and order and to establish a proper position of participation in the public affairs of Northern Ireland for the minority community. They are policies that we inherited from the Labour party. They are policies which we carried on deliberately because we believed that they were right. Everyone recognises that no Government have yet found a solution to the terror and tragedy of Northern Ireland. We regret that no Government's policy has found an answer. That is no reason for dividing the House, unless the Labour Party has a clear and adequate alternative.
  The second point of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite in their Motion is one with which we all agree. They pay
  "tribute to the courage and resolution of Her Majesty's Forces".
  Mr. James Callaghan: No, our second point refers to
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  "the serious deterioration in the relationship"—
  Mr. Maudling: Obviously, we all regret the deterioration, but I do not understand why right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite regard that as a reason for dividing the House.
  Mr. Orme: It is the result of the Government's policy.
  Mr. Callaghan: It is our Motion and the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment. It is up to him to choose whether he divides the House. He cannot claim that his policy has been successful.
  Mr. Maudling: A vote against the Government must be based not on unhappiness about a situation but about a difference of opinion on how to deal with it. That is what I intend to move on to next, since it is the guts of the Motion. It goes on:
  "declines to support the continuance of internment without trial and the extraction of information from detainees by methods which must never be permitted in a civilised society".
  I repeat that the Leader of the Opposition did not call for an end of internment. Internment is an alternative to trial through the normal processes of law. Any Government, any Home Secretary, any Minister would always want to see people tried through the normal processes of law. This procedure has been going on apace.
  I can give figures of arrests which have been made in connection with the possession of explosives in the last three months. In August there were 25. In September there were 24. In October there were 37. All these men have been charged. The information required to catch them red-handed in possession of explosives would not have been available if we had not had internment. As has been proved and acted upon time and time again by more than one Government, it is not possible in these circumstances to confront an accused man with the source of the information against him without destroying the source of the information and endangering the lives of those who have given it. That is simple, brute fact.
  We want to see the end of internment as soon as possible, and we shall examine the detailed suggestions made by the Leader of the Opposition. But the point of confrontation is the fundamental difference between the normal processes of

  47
  trial and those of appeal to committees now established and working in Northern Ireland. The alternative, if we are voting on this, is to release here and now on to the streets of Northern Ireland a large number of members of the Provisional I.R.A.—
  An Hon. Member: Charge them.
  Mr. Maudling: I have explained that it is impossible to charge them in circumstances where witnesses are intimidated. I am saying that if the Opposition wish to vote for the immediate release of all internees they are welcome to do so.
  I come next to interrogation. Here, very difficult issues are involved, and we have had a full discussion on the Compton Report. The most difficult issue is to decide what forms of interrogation are permissible in our society in dealing with a campaign of murder and terror, to try to apprehend the terrorists and capture the arms that they intend to use. It is because it is so difficult that we have asked Lord Parker of Waddington, assisted by two other Privy Councillors, one from each side of the House, to examine it. I thought that that commanded the general support of the House as a proper means of proceeding. I believe that it remains the proper means.
  It is difficult to reconcile that with words which talk about
  "the extraction of information from detainees by methods which must never be permitted in a civilised society".
  If, therefore, we are to have a party vote tonight, I must make the required party point. The words "in a civilised society" probably mean "by a civilised society." I do not think that anyone would suggest that it is permissible to use methods in a primitive society which must not be used in an advanced society.
  The Labour Party says that these methods should never be permitted "in a civilised society." Was Aden civilised in 1965 when these methods were used, as they were used for a number of years in succeeding campaigns? There was the Bowen Committee's Report, which went into that in great detail. Subsequent to that, a revised directive was issued which remains the directive upon which British Forces operate, and the
  48
  same methods continued to be part of the standard training of British Armed Forces throughout the years of Labour Government.
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: The right hon. Gentleman keeps on insisting that these methods were disclosed in the Bowen Report and sanctified in rules made thereafter. However, nothing in the Bowen Report discloses any of these methods of interrogation, and the rules laid down after the publication of the Bowen Report relate merely to principles which negate any kind of violence or torture. Nothing in the rules indicates the methods of interrogation disclosed in the Compton Report.
  Mr. Maudling: That is what I am saying. The principles laid down are the ones that we have observed. But, with all the information before them at the time, the Government of the day were satisfied with the 1967 directive and these methods of interrogation throughout the entire period of the Labour Government. They remain a standard training system of the British Armed Forces.
  As I have said, I believe that the right way to deal with this matter in a democracy is first to appoint a committee, as we are doing, and then for this House to direct itself to what is a very serious issue to be decided. There is a world of difference between a polite question to a man, asking for information, and torture, which is unacceptable. It is a problem to which we must address ourselves when we have the report of the Privy Councillors. It would not be honest or sensible to make it a cause of a party Division tonight.
  The Opposition Motion goes on:
  "Welcomes the initiative taken by the Leader of the Opposition for a solution to these problems; calls upon Her Majesty's Government to respond constructively to this approach".
  I have tried to do that in saying that we welcome readily the right hon. Gentleman's proposal for talks between the parties on this crucial issue. Therefore, I cannot see in the Motion any—
  An Hon. Member: Deal with security.
  Mr. Maudling: Certainly I will deal with security. This is another matter which may well be discussed between the parties.
  Mr. Orme: The right hon. Gentleman should let us have his views.
  Mr. Maudling: There are practical difficulties in this Government taking over security in Northern Ireland. Certainly there would be added burdens and complications for the British Army. The ideal in Northern Ireland is to have the system and standards of policing that we have in the United Kingdom. However, in present circumstances that system and those standards are not applicable in Northern Ireland. Where a small police force is operating alongside a bigger Army force, the circumstances are not remotely applicable to anything in this country.
  The Leader of the Opposition referred to the authority of the police authorities. In this country, chief constables have a remarkable degree of freedom. In their operations they are not under the control of the police authorities. A solution of that kind would not be feasible in Northern Ireland, where the whole question of security is fundamental to the problem.
  Many would see this move as a definite step in the direction of direct control. Whether that be true or not, we must recognise that many people would see it as that. We are agreed on both sides that direct rule should come only as a last resort. Therefore, a measure of this sort which would be thought to be a move in that direction would be fraught with considerable danger. I say that we should examine this and talk about it. I have examined it myself more than once. It is a proposal, and all proposals should be put on the table and thrashed out. I see difficulties in the way of it, and people should be aware of what they are.
  Looking at the various points in the Opposition Motion, I cannot see that they add up to such a divergence from the policy of the Government as to justify dividing the House on this issue.
  I come finally to another point which I am sure will interest the House. There is genuine concern about the economic situation in Northern Ireland. It is felt by the trade unions as well as by employers. Sir James Cairncross has been chairing a committee reviewing the Northern Ireland Development Plan. He has reported to the two Governments,
  50
  and we are both studying his recommendations carefully. We shall announce our decisions later.
  On the review body's recommendation, the Northern Ireland Government propose to set up a finance corporation which will offer help over the next three years to undertakings which have reasonable long-term prospects but are faced with particular needs at present. Full details will be announced shortly. Meanwhile, the two Governments agree that, if necessary, under the normal financial arrangements up to £50 million can be made available to this body.
  I hope that that will be taken as an earnest of the seriousness with which we treat this problem of Northern Ireland. It is one of enormous dimensions and of great national gravity. I have explained as best I can how the Government are trying to pursue the twin aims of dealing with the gunmen and of creating a political solution. We are entitled to ask for the support of the whole House on that policy.
  4.20 p.m.
  Mr. George Thomson: The speech which we have just heard from the Home Secretary has served to underline one feature of the debate. Despite his final words I must tell him that whatever differences there are in the House about present policies—and some of them run deep—there is general agreement that this debate has been dominated and shaped by the opening speech of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. My right hon. Friend regrets that, owing to a long-standing overseas commitment, which I know the Government understand and appreciate, he cannot be in the House today, but if he is not present in person his advice to the House is very much present, as we have heard from the Home Secretary. My right hon. Friend talked in his speech on Thursday about
  "the traumatic change which the internment decision brought about."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th November, 1971; Vol. 826, c. 1580.]
  He said he believed that, following internment, nothing can ever be quite the same again. That can also be said about my right hon. Friend's speech: nothing can be quite the same again in this House after it, certainly in terms of the public debate about the complex of Irish problems of which the Northern Ireland crisis

  51
  provides the violent focus. That speech has added a new dimension to the debate. It has placed it on a quite different plane, which gives us new horizons, and new opportunities for dialogue.
  I was happy to hear from the Home Secretary an immediate positive response to the suggestion by the Leader of the Opposition that there ought to be joint talks, first of all in this House, then one hopes, between the parties in Stormont, and, if all goes well, on a wider scale in search of a solution. Of course, the Home Secretary could not resist the temptation—it ran as a recurrent theme through his speech—to try to establish a contradiction between the terms of the speech and the terms of the Motion moved on behalf of the Opposition. Let me meet this attack head-on. There is no internal contradiction in the Opposition Motion. Our Motion regrets the failure of the Government's present policy, and we are entitled to do that. I shall explain why.
  The Motion does exactly what the Home Secretary said was the only possible justification for it and for dividing on it. It puts forward an adequate and definable alternative, as set out in the speech by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. Let me say that, since the Home Secretary spoke in fairly strong terms in defence of his own position, in our view, he is the wrong man to make this kind of critique. Our Motion can be put more pungently and personally as an attack on the degree of drift which the Home Secretary has allowed to take place, and which has made such a contribution to the deterioration of the situation in Northern Ireland during the summer.
  He charges us with breaking bipartisanship over Northern Ireland at a time when my right hon. Friend is urging all-Party talks. What is bipartisanship? What is its purpose in a Chamber like this? To read the Conservative Press, and to hear the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon, it is clear that there is a simple Tory definition, which is to the effect that, on an issue like Northern Ireland, it is the duty of the Labour Opposition to go along with Conservative Government policy. That is not a definition we can accept as being in the real interests of the Servicemen in Northern Ireland or of the communities there. Of
  52
  course there is great advantage in being able to maintain bipartisanship in this House in a situation like Northern Ireland, where lives are at stake and our Service men are at risk. But it has to be based on agreement about the way forward. The Home Secretary conceded this in his opening remarks. He said that the basis of bipartisanship must be genuine agreement. Our case is that in recent months that genuine agreement has been disappearing due to the action, or lack of action, on the part of the Government.
  For a long time we had bipartisanship, both under the Labour Government, and under the present Administration, but as I argued in our emergency debate on 23rd September:
  "… we believe the Government have departed during the summer from what, during our period of office and afterwards, had remained common ground."—[OFFICIAL, REPORT, 23rd September 1971; Vol. 823, c. 304.]
  Bipartisanship was destroyed not, as the Tory Press over the weekend would like the nation to believe, by a resolution of the Parliamentary Labour Party: that resolution merely reflected the fact that it had already been destroyed by the Government's inertia and errors during the critical summer and autumn. The rôle of a Government in London ought to be constantly, endlessly, with infinite patience, publicly and behind the scenes to persuade, cajole and press all groups in Northern Ireland and in Dublin, if we are to have any chance of influencing them, to move in the right direction, or at least, not to move in the wrong direction.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) did this with consummate skill during his period as Home Secretary. That kind of action by a British Government means that they must not be over-committed to any one section or appease any one section as the Government in our view have allowed themselves to appease Stormont over internment.
  Captain Walter Elliot: The right hon. Gentleman started off reconciling what the Leader of the Opposition said about the terms of the Motion, but he seemed to leave it rather quickly. Would he, had he abandoned it entirely, reconcile what the Leader of

  53
  the Opposition said about internment with what is said in the Motion about it?
  Mr. Thomson: I can assure the hon. and gallant Gentleman that if he will be patient—I am only at the beginning of a long speech—I shall come to that point in a few moments. I was seeking to make the point about what the Government did in the summer which led to the destruction of the common ground between us. At that point in time it seemed to us that the Government preferred bipartisanship at Stormont to bipartisanship at Westminster. It cannot be said too plainly that it is the Government, and not the Opposition, who failed to preserve the common ground that existed in this House until the summer.
  Whatever other criticisms he may make the Home Secretary cannot accuse my right hon. Friends on this bench of reckless haste in accepting this fact. In our September debate, my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East and I emphasised that, in normal circumstances, we would have criticised the Government by a vote against them. We refrained from so doing because of the talks arranged between the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic and because of the Home Secretary's initiative in bringing people round his table in a search for a solution and because of Mr. Faulkner's Green Paper. We wished all these initiatives well. We hoped desperately that they would produce concrete progress in the weeks that followed. I warned then, in winding up, that we would watch the progress of the talks vigilantly, particularly as they affected the issue of internment and that, after the House returned, we would, if necessary, take the matter to a Division. The Home Secretary cannot argue that he has not been fully warned of the process that was developing.
  What has happened since that last debate? It seems to us that the Government's initiatives have been running into the sands. The only new development since that debate, on the Government side, has been the report on the methods of deep interrogation contained in the Compton Report, which the House, whatever views may be held about it, will feel has added a new chapter to the Northern Ireland nightmare. The only positive event offering any hope for the
  54
  future has been the visit of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition to Belfast and Dublin, and the report which has emerged from it.
  It is for these reasons that we believe that our Motion wholly reflects the realities of the situation, both in this House and in Ireland. The old basis for a common policy has gone, destroyed like so much else in the conflagration that was caused by the way the internment policy was carried out. New common ground has to be created, and here I come close to the point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Carshalton (Captain Elliot): we believe that the proposals put forward by my right hon. Friend seem to offer the best chances of re-creating that common ground which this House badly needs if it is to solve the problems of Northern Ireland.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Edward Heath): The right hon. Gentleman has used the phrase that what he objects to is the way in which the internment policy was carried out. Does this mean that he does not object to internment but to the way of doing it?
  Mr. Thomson: If the Prime Minister will be patient I shall treat internment carefully in a moment, in language which I have considered carefully.
  The Prime Minister: It was a perfectly clear and straightforward question. Surely the right hon. Gentleman can give an answer?
  Mr. Thomson: I must ask the Prime Minister to be patient. I will give him a considered answer. I cannot promise that it will be one which will satisfy him. I was trying to meet the charge that we are dividing the House at a time when the Leader of the Opposition has proposed a new basis for inter-party talks. What I am arguing is that it is right that the Opposition should pass judgment on the recent past. I do not believe that we can refrain from doing so in this debate, especially—and this is an important aspect sometimes overlooked—if the confidence of the minority community in the sense of fairness of this House is to be retained.
  Having said that, it is the future that matters most, and that is why I regard my right hon. Friend's speech as the

  55
  most important single feature of the debate and that is why I very much welcomed the response which the right hon. Gentleman made to it. No one can be expected to accept all the details of my right hon. Friend's proposals as they stand. He would be the last person to expect that to happen. But this does offer everyone a chance to discuss new perspectives which might help to stop the slide to disaster in Northern Ireland.
  Mr. McMaster: On the point about the constitutional talks, does not the right hon. Gentleman see a danger, in certain circumstances, of holding talks such as those which the Leader of the Opposition suggested, since they give encouragement to the Republicans and lead to a resurgence of violence such as we have seen this last weekend and such as we have seen ever since the talks of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister with his opposite number from Dublin? There has been increasing violence because they get encouragement from these talks; they think that they are achieving their ends.
  Mr. Thomson: I do not underestimate the dangers attached to any course in connection with the Irish problem. But the greatest dangers and disasters are likely to follow acceptance of the doctrine of despair which the hon. Member is constantly giving this House.
  I come now to internment, which was raised by the Prime Minister. From what I have said about internment and from our Motion it will be clear that we regard it as being at the heart of any improvement in the short-term situation. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition was sketching on a broad canvass; perhaps I might come down to the more immediate foreground which certainly concerns the question of internment. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees), in winding up for the Opposition on Thursday evening, gave the House some interesting ideas for meeting the fundamental dilemma that we are in as a result of what I regard as the political blunder over the way that the internment policy was carried out in August.
  This dilemma is that, on the one hand, there is the lack of an adequate judicial process of trial for those who are detained while, on the other hand, there is
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  the impossibility, to which the Home Secretary referred, of releasing on to the streets known gunmen who, once normal conditions of confidence are restored, would face criminal charges with witnesses ready to come forward and testify against them. At the moment Northern Ireland, an integral part of the United Kingdom for which right hon. Gentlemen opposite are directly responsible, suffers internment without trial to a degree that we never allowed to happen in any of our colonies in the past. I emphasise the words "without trial", from our own Motion, because even while the full and formal panoply of the traditional trial may be impossible in present circumstances, because of the fear of intimidation, it is possible, we believe, to provide some reasonably adequate alternative.
  It is possible to provide what I noticed Mr. Conor Cruise O'Brien described in a perceptive article in the Observer yesterday as
  "judicial hearings in camera at which detainees and internees could be represented by counsel."
  My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. Peter Archer), who was one of the delegation from this House which visited the internees, tells me that at present they receive no notification of the nature of the charge against them, so that if they present their cases to Judge Brown's Commission they are without knowledge of the allegations against them, they have no method of knowing in advance what will be said, and I understand the Commission refuses to hear all argument by lawyers on behalf of the internees. It would be a substantial step forward to providing maximum possible opportunities for trial within the limitations imposed if those things were to be allowed.
  My hon. and learned Friend suggested that additional confidence could be created among the internees if the Commission included international personalities, and he mentioned the President of the European Court. Other Members, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East, mentioned the possibility that distinguished Commonwealth judges might have a "confidence-creating" rôole to play here.
  It must be remembered that Northern Ireland cannot be an integral part of the United Kingdom without a recognition

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  that the British Government have to carry the international responsibility of internment. Mr. Faulkner's Green Paper seemed to me to have a number of constructive features to which the Home Secretary drew attention, but one of the mistakes appeared to be the placing of the responsibilities of the Stormont Cabinet in respect of security on broadly the same level as that of Whitehall. The inevitable corollary of Northern Ireland being part of the United Kingdom is that Westminster must be the sovereign Parliament and Stormont the subordinate one. To have complete responsibility for security, which we have in this House, but only divided power is becoming increasingly unsatisfactory.
  The Home Secretary's response to this point was equally unsatisfactory this afternoon. He said that the constitutional responsibility was shared, which is the fact. When he was asked about it he shrugged his shoulders and said, "It happens to be the law." The law is made in this House, and this is something with which the Government can deal.
  Mr. Maudling: I am interested in the point which the right hon. Gentleman is making, but he has not come to the crunch on this issue. He referred to the difficulties of releasing "known gunmen"—an interesting phrase—on the streets. He accepts that they are known. The crunch is this—do the Opposition envisage a system whereby the source of the information and the identity of the person giving the information should become known to the detainee or internee and his adviser? This is the crunch of the whole business of trial in internment procedures.
  Mr. Thomson: I am not a lawyer, but as someone who has had some connection with colonial administration over years in this House, what I do know is that the arrangements we have made with regard to such situations in colonial territories offered those who were detained an infinitely better chance of defending themselves, knowing what they were charged with and dealing with that, than we are doing in Ulster.
  Mr. Maudling: There is a fundamental question which the right hon. Gentleman has not answered. Do the Opposition recommend that the source
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  of information and the identity of the person providing it should become known to the detainee and his advisers?
  Mr. Thomson: I see no reason why in the first place the charge on which the internee is detained without trial, a most repugnant thing as the Home Secretary has said on many occasions, should not be made known to the internee. I do not see why, if proceedings are held in camera, those who hold them cannot strike a reasonable balance between the security of the community and the interests of those detained.
  Mr. Peter Archer: Would my right hon. Friend accept that there is a world of difference in any event between telling an internee and his lawyer what is alleged against him and telling him the source of the information?
  Mr. Thomson: Indeed. I want to put to the Government another consideration about the transfer of responsibility for security clearly and unequivocally to this House and the Government in Westminster. It is a practical argument of some importance. If security clearly lay here in Westminster and Whitehall, this would greatly clear the decks at Stormont for pursuing various constructive proposals which Mr. Faulkner and others have made for internal reform and would win a bigger hope of a positive response from the side of the minority community.
  Mr. John Biggs-Davison: Does the proposal mean the transfer of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, because if so that would mean a further division of responsibility between Stormont and Westminster.
  Mr. Thomson: I see no reason why the R.U.C. should not be in the same relationship to Whitehall and Westminster as any other of the great police forces of the United Kingdom. This is a united kingdom, and because of the way in which things have been developing we have to face the problems which have been created by these developments.
  I was going on to argue that the transfer of security to the Government here and to the House would centralise the responsibility for interrogation methods, and here I come to the point made by the Home Secretary at the end of his speech. Everyone who is horrified

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  by the acts of violence perpetrated by the I.R.A. against innocent victims must recognise, as the Home Secretary asked us to do, that there is a difficult balance to be struck as to how far a democratic society is entitled to go to obtain information from those in detention in order to save lives. Nevertheless, on reflection, I believe that many hon. Members on both sides of the House believe that the line must be drawn in a way which clearly rules out the kind of techniques involving the physical ill-treatment described by the Compton Inquiry.
  It is true that these techniques have been used elsewhere in other emergencies, but what is more important to recognise is that this is the first time that these techniques have become known to Ministers and to Parliament—I mean known to Ministers of the previous Administration, or to Ministers of the present one. The skin of civilisation seems to be preciously thin, as we see day after day in Ulster. It is very easy to break that skin, and desperately hard to heal it. The forces of law and order are striving desperately, in the face of great provocation, to preserve the wafer-thin veneer of civilisation in Northern Ireland. It would be tragically self-defeating if they were to slide into the habit of breaking it themselves.
  I recognise that this involves a double standard for the gunman and the law-keeper, but that is a basic definition of the rule of law of civilised societies. It is a rule to which every policeman faced with trying to get information from a common thug has to conform, and it is not possible to have one rule for the Belfast interrogation centre and another for the average English police station. Indeed, by all accounts the legal basis of the techniques that were used at the interrogation centre is very much open to question.
  I did not think that my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South-West (Mr. George Cunningham) received an adequate answer from the Attorney-General on that matter earlier this afternoon. We urgently need a considered explanation from one of the Law Officers about the legal powers under which this
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  interrogation in depth takes place, and what protection it is proposed to offer those carrying out these orders. If the Attorney-General does not tell the House about it, I warn him that he is likely to have to provide some sort of explanation at the European Court of Human Rights, as was indicated by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dulwich (Mr. S. C. Silkin).
  None of our anxieties about internment or interrogation reflects in any way—and I should make this crystal clear—on the conduct or courage of the British forces in Northern Ireland.
  Sir Harry Legge-Bourke: It merely makes it more difficult for them.
  Mr. Thomson: I am astonished to hear that from the hon. Gentleman, because I do not think he would find it endorsed by any officer who has the responsibility of commanding troops in Northern Ireland.
  Sir H. Legge-Bourke: One of the most despicable acts a politician can do is to put troops into action to do a job and then let them down as soon as somebody else has the responsibility for them.
  Mr. Thomson: I agree with the hon. Gentleman, and I hope to deal with this issue of the respective duties of politicians and soldiers in a moment, but let me first say something about the soldiers.
  They are carrying out what I suppose is the most difficult task that British troops have carried out at any time during this century. They are carrying out the most distasteful of military tasks, that of peace-keeping within the boundaries of their own country, and amongst their own people. They are doing this, as everybody recognises, whatever other differences there may be between us, with immense patience, good humour and superb professional skill in that most difficult of military techniques, the use of minimum force.
  There are bound to be occasions when things go wrong and must be thoroughly investigated. It does not help the forces if anyone in this House seeks to brush aside instances where there must be investigations, and the forces themselves have behaved with tremendous good sense and dignity in these matters. The forces have shamed a number of honourable and

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  some gallant Members opposite by resisting the kind of pressures which some hon. Gentlemen opposite have been trying to generate to impose censorship in Northern Ireland. The forces, when they have to undergo ordeal by television, do so with immense dignity and self-restraint.
  Sir H. Legge-Bourke: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will absolve me of that charge, bearing in mind what I said during the debate on the Compton Report. I said that I condemn censorship, and that I do not want it.
  Mr. Thomson: I accept that, and I am happy to absolve the hon. Gentleman of that charge. I hope that he will on reflection absolve me of the charge of wishing to make more difficult the task of our soldiers in Northern Ireland. I was pretty angry when that charge was made against me.
  It would be wise if the citizens of Northern Ireland, whether they belong to any of the fanatical minorities, or to the acquiescent and often too-silent majorities, were to realise that public opinion on this side of the Irish Sea has little sympathy for any of them. Public opinion in this country is on the side of the soldiers who are there simply to prevent a blood bath. The soldiers know that there can be no military solution in Northern Ireland, either way.
  The golden rule for defence policy—I direct these words to the hon. Member for the Isle of Ely—seems to me that soldiers should not be asked to do politicians' jobs for them. Admiration for the qualities of our soliders is no substitute for political policy, and the duty of politicians, be they in London, Belfast, or Dublin, is to find political solutions.
  My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has sought to do exactly that. He has not shirked the harsh realities in what he put before the House. In his first-hand report from Northern Ireland he recognised that the gunmen must be destroyed or compelled to retire. He recognised that there must be success for the security forces before a political situation can be fully implemented, but equally—and this is sometimes rather overlooked in the subsequent debate—that that does not mean that a political solution can or must await a military victory. If that were to be so, it might wait for ever.
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  Progress towards a political solution must go hand in hand with the security operation if the security operation itself is to succeed. So long as the minority feel repressed, they will shelter violent men who seek to take violent action. Law and order are not of themselves enough. What we are seeking is to bring about law and justice, and my right hon. Friend underlined the fact that even if the I R.A. could be defeated militarily, it would rise again more militantly in a few years' time if there were no settlement which gave peace with justice.
  In that he was echoing the wise words of Brian Faulkner in Stormont when he introduced his Green Paper. He said then:
  "Moreover, I will not be satisfied with just heating the present I.R.A. campaign. I don't want to have to tell my children, 'Well, we have hammered violence into its box for a few more years, but we can't guarantee it won't break out again in your time, and that will he your problem'. I want our posterity to say that this was the generation which sought to get to the roots of the problem which has for so long bedevilled this country."
  I agree with those words, and my right hon. Friend sought to get to the root of the problem. His proposals were both wide-ranging and detailed. He did not underestimate the objections which would be raised, but his proposals will have done well, indeed, if they simply force everybody concerned with this problem, wherever they are, to rethink their basic attitudes. The proposals were meant, above all, to get a dialogue going. Until my right hon. Friend spoke, I had a forbidding sense of moving into a cul-de-sac which sloped inexorably downwards while the walls on either side grew higher and higher all the time.
  Suddenly, my right hon. Friend offers us what I think the scientists call a quantum jump. It cannot of itself take us out of the cul-de-sac; that remains our present position, and tonight we on this side of the House will express our regret about the policies which got us into that cul-de-sac. But what my right hon. Friend offers us is the chance to move on to a different plane where the perspectives and possibilities can change. This involves a concept of a completely different relationship between Dublin, Belfast and London. It involves the possibility of a united Ireland, based, as the Ireland Act, 1949, laid down, on the consent of the Parliament of Northern

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  Ireland. That is the only way that it can happen.
  But the Home Secretary was less than adequate when questioned on the attitude of Mr. Faulkner to this a little earlier today. It is vitally important, if we are to make progress, if there is to be an adequate response to the Leader of the Opposition's proposals, that it should not be laid down in Northern Ireland that no one who has a belief in a united Ireland, however long-term and however much it may be based on the consent of the peoples concerned, should be debarred from a share of the guaranteed and permanent power that the Home Secretary, quite correctly, seeks to bring about in Northern Ireland.
  To quote again from the Observer article by Mr. Conor Cruise O'Brien, addressing this time his own compatriots in Dublin:
  "No British Government will force a million Ulster Protestants into a United Ireland …—a truism so massive that it would not need to be stated, except through such a mental fog that has so long brooded over Ulster-Irish politics."
  That is the reality of the matter. The job which the Leader of the Opposition sought to do on Thursday was to point some signposts through that fog which envelops all of us.
  Mr. Simon Mahon: While we agree that that has been said by Conor Cruise O'Brien, it has also been said by every member of the hierarchy in Ireland: that one cannot browbeat a million non-Catholics into a united Ireland. But the tragedy today is that so many Catholics in Northern Ireland will not have Stormont at any price.
  Mr. Thomson: I agree. The Home Secretary himself quoted Cardinal Conway on exactly the same point. That is the reality of things. That is why the Home Secretary is right when he presses his proposals for a permanent, active and guaranteed share of political power in Northern Ireland, when he says that civil rights and the abolition of discrimination, important though they are, in fact are not enough, that one must move from that to a share of political power, and to a share of the political administration.
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  We might dispute with him where the limitations of that lie in terms of operating a Cabinet system and so on, but on the central point he is absolutely right. It was against that background that we very much welcomed the response which he made to the proposals by my right hon. Friend for joint talks as a beginning to wider talks on a wider scale in Northern Ireland itself.
  I hope that he will be able, through these talks, to begin building up a new and more realistic common ground between the parties here. I believe that there is a desperate need for a new start in a new dimension. Whatever difficulties this offers, I believe that it is the best hope of peace with justice for the shattered, fear-ridden communities of Northern Ireland.
  4.53 p.m.
  Sir Fitzroy Maclean: I have no special knowledge of Northern Ireland except as an agreeable place to visit in happier times, so I will not try to go into the more abstruse political aspects of an agonising problem. What I should like to do is to touch very briefly on the question of insurgency as a form of warfare and on possible answers to it. That, after all, is what we are most immediately concerned with—although, sooner or later, an agreed political solution must clearly be found. And to that extent, I welcome and recognise the importance of the initiative of the Leader of the Opposition, and also welcome his firm assertion that there can be no progress and no withdrawal so long as violence lasts.
  I only wish that his views commanded more support in the party which he strives so manfully to lead. I must say I was a little disappointed by the ambivalence of the attempts of the right hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. George Thomson) to reconcile his leader's speech with his party's Motion. Ambivalence is something which we have learned not to expect from the right hon. Gentleman and, if I may say so, it is also something at which he is not at all good.
  My own experience of insurgency, as it happens, has been largely on the side of the insurgent, of the guerrilla, and the small-scale raider. But, in the present situation, perhaps that is not altogether irrelevant, because if one knows or can guess what the enemy is trying to do, it

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  may help one to decide what to do oneself.
  For a guerrilla to succeed, certain things are necessary. First of all, he must have mobility—mobility that gives him the initiative and makes possible surprise, that enables him to attack the enemy where he least expects it and then to fade back again quickly into the hinterland, denying his opponents a firm target at which to hit back. As T. E. Lawrence said:
  "The guerrilla must be a thing intangible, invulnerable, without front or back, drifting about like a gas."
  There could not be a better description of the I.R.A. Above all, a guerrilla must never let himself be pinned down.
  Now, in order to be able to operate in this way, he needs, first of all, a background, a hinterland from which to emerge, from which to strike and into which to disappear. Lawrence and others since had the desert; others had mountains or forests or the jungle. A city, if one knows one's way around it and has the run of it, can be a perfectly adequate background for guerrilla operations, as has been shown over and over again. So, of course, can a neighbouring country if it is friendly.
  Secondly, if a guerrilla is always to be a jump ahead—and he must be, if he is to survive at all—he needs good intelligence, better intelligence than his adversary. Finally, in addition to all these, it is of enormous advantage to him if he has the support, or at any rate the connivance—willing or unwilling—of the local population. As Mao Tse-Tung has told us—and he speaks with authority—
  "a guerrilla must be able to live among the people as a fish lives in water".
  He will, after all, in all probability depend on the local population for intelligence, shelter and probably supplies.
  If we want to get on top of the I.R.A.—and I assume that most of us do, at any rate on this side of the House—the first thing to do is to consider how far they enjoy the tactical and strategic advantages which I have described, and then decide how we can best deprive them of those advantages.
  Clearly, the answer is that, to a greater or lesser degree, the I.R.A. at present possess all these advantages and consequently still have the initiative. And
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  so our aim, as I see it, must be to reverse the situation, so that in future it is they who are at the receiving end and we who possess the initiative. If we are to succeed in this, there are a number of things we need to do. We must ensure that our intelligence is better than theirs, and not vice versa. We must deprive them, if we possibly can, of the support of at any rate the majority of the local population. We must try to deny them the possibility of surprise. We must restrict their mobility and freedom of movement and seek to pin them down.
  I was glad that, on Thursday, my noble Friend emphasised the importance of good intelligence and gave an account of the Army's recent successes. Once our intelligence is better than that of the I.R.A., we are well on the way to denying them the vital element of surprise. We can at least stop them taking us by surprise and with any luck start taking them by surprise.
  But what seems to me the most important thing of all is that we should deny the I.R.A. the almost complete freedom of movement which they at present possess. So long as they can move freely back and forth across the Border, using the Irish Republic as a sanctuary and supply base, and so long as there are areas in Belfast and Londonderry which they virtually control, we have not in my view got a hope of ending the emergency.
  Nor, so long as that is the case, can we really have much hope of winning the battle for the hearts and minds of the uncommitted population. There are certainly a good many people in Northern Ireland who support the I.R.A. voluntarily. But there are a good many more who put up with the I.R.A. only because they are terrorised into doing so, and we have seen horrifying examples on the front pages of our newspapers to prove this. Until we can keep order in our own cities and reassure the uncommitted and give them something to hope for, and get them to look to us for protection now and in the future, large numbers of them will inevitably go on conniving, collaborating or co-operating with the I.R.A. and giving them comfort and shelter.
  For all these reasons I must say I was not entirely reassured by what my noble Friend said about the Border on

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  Thursday. It may perhaps be impracticable to seal it off completely against the I.R.A. But surely we ought to be able to do better than, as he said,
  "make it very much more difficult for them to drive across freely".—[OFFICIAL REPORT 25th November, 1971; Vol. 826, c. 1600.]
  Because, so long as the I.R.A. are able to move back and forth across the Border at will, even if they sometimes have to do so on foot, the emergency will go on. I know that closing the Border may involve inconvenience for the people who live nearby, but that after all is nothing like the inconvenience that the emergency is causing everyone else.
  And, of course, the same applies to the areas in the cities which the enemy at present control—or which at any rate we quite clearly do not control. Until we can clear those areas of gunmen and reestablish British rule there, the I.R.A.'s reign of terror is bound to continue.
  I know, of course, that more troops will be needed for this and that we are short of men on the ground. I know, too, that it is a question of priorities. But surely there can be no higher priority, when it comes to deciding how to use such troops as we have, than preventing terrorism in the United Kingdom itself. And that, I believe, can be done only by closing the Border as effectively as possible and by regaining control without further delay of the areas at present out-with our control. Only when we have done this can we hope to achieve what we all want to see, namely, a political settlement and an end to the emergency.
  Rightly or wrongly, successive Governments have whittled away our foreign and overseas military commitments until today very few remain. But this is not a foreign commitment this is a United Kingdom commitment and, as such, it is a difficult one to get rid of, short of abandoning an integral part of this country to massacre and civil war.
  I would like to end, as others have done, by paying tribute to the British Army and to the exceptional steadfastness, courage and restraint with which they are performing their difficult, exacting and distasteful duties. There is no more unpleasant task for regular troops than to be engaged in an undeclared war of this kind, never knowing when they
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  will be blown up or shot in the back or who is going to do it—never knowing when some innocent-looking child will throw a handgrenade at one. In such circumstances it is the easiest thing in the world to lose one's nerve and overreact or, alternatively, to fall back on a policy of deliberate frightfulness.
  I think the steadiness and restraint shown by the British Army in Northern Ireland, under the severest possible provocation, can have few parallels in history, contemporary or otherwise. And I think that our Press and television, in their efforts to appear unbiassed, would do well to bear this in mind.
  5.6 p.m.
  Mr. Roy Hattersley: I begin by making some of my own comments about the remarkable speech with which the debate was opened last Thursday by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition.
  In my view, that speech changed permanently and fundamentally the whole character and nature of the Irish debate.
  A senior British politician has for the first time in 50 years spoken of Irish unity not simply as an honourable goal but as an attainable one. As a result I do not believe that the Irish debate can ever be the same again.
  My right hon. Friend's references to unity were carefully and necessarily qualified and properly and responsibly limited. But the idea of Irish unity has been broached, and in my view this idea will prove to be increasingly contagious—indeed already there is a good deal of common ground among people throughout the country in favour of the idea.
  In the light of some Press comment that has appeared today and over the weekend, I wish to make perfectly clear how widespread in the ranks of the Opposition is not only our support for the goal of eventual Irish unity but, equally our support for vocalising and demonstrating tonight our criticism of what the Conservative Government have done in the last 18 months. I cannot help but reflect on the second leader in yesterday's Sunday Telegraph, in which some of us who pride ourselves in having urged criticism of the Government were described as irresponsible politicians for vocally supporting Irish unity—when only a few weeks ago we were described as

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  statesmen of considerable eminence for vocally supporting European unity.
  I see no conflict between the long-term aim and the short-term criticism. Both are common to every group within the Opposition and both will be demonstrated when we vote against the Government tonight, it is absolutely nonsensical to pretend that this single act of voting for the first time on an Irish question since the entry of British troops into the streets of Derry and Belfast in 1969 means, in itself, the end of bipartisanship.
  Bipartisanship—it is an ugly as well as an imprecise word—has to be a two-way business. That ended when the Government adopted policies which the Opposition could not in conscience support. It was killed stone dead on the night of 9th August when internment without trial was introduced. It was dealt an almost mortal blow six weeks before because of the manner in which some of the searches in Derry and Belfast were carried out—carried out in such a way that the minority community was bound to be antagonised.
  The antagonisation of the minority community is central to our criticism of the Government. Peace cannot be restored until the majority of Catholics—the law-abiding minority community in Northern Ireland—believe that they have nothing to gain from the gunmen and everything to gain from the rule of law. When a wedge should have been driven between the gunmen and the law-abiding Catholics, a wedge was driven between the law-abiding Catholics and the law itself. Nothing more accelerated that process than the introduction of internment without trial. In those circumstances, bipartisanship is impossible.
  Sir F. Maclean: Is the hon. Gentleman unaware of the fact that his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition made it clear in his speech on Thursday that internment should cease only when certain necessary conditions had improved?
  Mr. Hattersley: I am so well aware of what he said that I have marked in my copy of the OFFICIAL REPORT C. 1577 to 1580 which deal with that point. However, that is not my interpretation of what my right hon. Friend was saying. [Laughter.] Nor do I regard internment
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  without trial as a matter of great jocularity.
  We all agree that internment has improved intelligence. That is clearly the case, and nobody would deny it. But my right hon. Friend went on to say that a terrible price had been paid amongst both communities. He talked about the traumatic change that that decision brought about and said that following interment nothing could be the same again. I am echoing those sentiments.
  The Prime Minister: Would the hon. Gentleman address himself to the conclusion of the Leader of the Opposition, cited by my hon. Friend?
  Mr. Hattersley: I have done that. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I will repeat it for the Prime Minister's benefit. I have said that the conclusion which is cited by his hon. Friend is certainly not a conclusion I read from the speech. I do not believe that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, had he been Prime Minister, would have countenanced internment or that he would have slavishly agreed to proposals of Mr. Brian Faulkner, as did the present Prime Minister. I believe that his criticism of internment, in principle and in practice, is as strong as mine.
  Sir F. Maclean: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that his Leader considers that internment should continue until confidence has been restored? If he does not interpret his Leader's words—which he and I have both emphasised—as meaning that, what does he interpret?
  Mr. Hattersley: I do not interpret it as that for a moment. If the hon. Gentleman at some future date, or the Prime Minister when he replies to the debate, would like to quote the exact sentence in which that is explicit, many of my right hon. and hon. Friends would be surprised.
  I make an essential point about the preservation of bipartisan policy. The Opposition cannot accept that bipartnership is the slavish support of the Government of the day in whatever they happen to think is right. Bipartisanship means that both parties, Government and Opposition, must pursue mutually agreed goals according to policies which are themselves mutually acceptable. Tonight

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  I shall vote against two policies which are, in my terms, totally unacceptable.
  First, I regard internment as wrong in principle. It has been demonstrably counter-productive in practice. The second policy involves distribution of power between Whitehall and Westminster on the one hand and the Government of Stormont on the other. Both these I criticise and regard as justification for a vote. They have crucially alienated the support of the law-abiding Catholic population in Northern Ireland. They are directly relevant to the point made by the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean). He knows infinitely more than I do about guerrilla warfare. It is almost an impertinence for me to say that the point he made which seemed to have the greatest force was the necessity for a guerrilla organisation to have a hinterland into which it can retire when things become difficult. What internment has meant is that the hinterland has been extended by the policy of Her Majesty's Government, and that many thousands of Catholic homes which were not open to gunmen before 9th August are now available to them.
  The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman asked for the exact reference, it is at the foot of column 1588 in the proposals of his Leader. After the party conference and after the constitution, the right hon. Gentleman then said:
  "Third, internment would cease as soon as the necessary conditions exist for an improvement in confidence."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th November, 1971; Vol. 826, c. 1588.]
  No one can say that those conditions exist today.
  Mr. Hattersley: I am sorry to develop this point, but the Prime Minister insists in interpreting the speech to meet his own terms, and suggesting that that point is the support of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition for continuing a policy of internment. The right hon. Gentleman must read the speech as a whole, in its full context.
  Whilst internment was a regrettable decision, and one which I would not support in normal circumstances, it cannot be ended—to use a phrase borrowed from my right hon. Friend—at a stroke of the pen. Therefore, we cannot free all the
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  internees tomorrow. Nobody says that. Neither my right hon. Friend nor I say that. I am confirmed in my belief that the particular passage meant no more and no less by my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan).
  The Prime Minister has taken up a little of my time and I must continue. Before I explain the two points of disagreement, the shift of power from Westminster to Stormont and the inadequacy of the policy of internment, there are two matters about policies which join Government and Opposition. Those are the continued presence of the British Army in Northern Ireland and our general support—indeed admiration—for their conduct. I said a week ago and I repeat today, I deeply resent the suggestion of the hon. Member for Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke) that any criticism of Government policy is itself an attack on the Army. Nothing could be further from the truth. Many of us believe that if the Government were acting in a more rational fashion the Army's job would be easier. I refer to the point of making Catholic homes available to insurgents in a way they were not available before the summer antagonisation. The constant repetition, which was all that we had from the Government Benches in the debate last Thursday, of our admiration for the Army is not a substitute for a policy in Northern Ireland. What we have to say about the Army unites it; but what we have to say about Northern Ireland policies does not.
  Mr. McMaster: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves that point, would he accept that there are fewer homes now open to the members of the I.R.A., that we have more information coming from those quarters than ever before, and that what the hon. Gentleman says is totally wrong? A year ago there were far more homes open to them than there are today.
  Mr. Hattersley: I do not accept that for a moment.
  Mr. McMaster: It is true.
  Mr. Hattersley: If the hon. Gentleman is telling the House that the law-abiding Catholics have not been antagonised to the point of alienation by the affairs of June, July and 9th August, he does not

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  justify a moment's credibility for his opinions on Northern Ireland.
  My second point concerns the transfer of influence and power from the Government at Westminster to the Government at Stormont. That movement is exemplified by three things. The first is internment itself. I do not propose to pursue the unhappy origin of internment, but everyone knows that it was Mr. Faulkner's policy for years before he became Prime Minister, and everyone knows that it was imposed on the Government by him.
  Second, perhaps more flagrant, is the cratering of roads on the border, done at the suggestion of Mr. John Taylor, with virtually no military justification. The Army did not like it two years ago and does not like it now. That was a political decision.
  Third, on the decision to interrogate in depth, a fortnight ago it was admitted that this decision was taken by Stormont Ministers, although that interrogation was supervised by British troops and was carried out on men interned by the Army.
  Now we have a new example—perhaps the most flagrant of all—the flippant answer of the Home Secretary to my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham (Mr. Russell Kerr). My hon. Friend asked why security was not to be transferred from Stormont to Westminster. The Home Secretary said that that was the law.
  Mr. Maudling: I was asked why responsibility for security rested with Stormont. I said, "Because it is the law", and that is the fact at present. I said nothing about changing the law.
  Mr. Hattersley: That is the narrow legalistic fact. But there is another fact. Those who are basically responsible for security are British soldiers responsible to this House. Those who arrested internees are British soldiers responsible to this House. Those who supervised interrogation in depth are British soldiers responsible to this House. I put it to the right hon. Gentleman that those risking their lives and losing their lives in Belfast are British soldiers responsible to this House. To shrug off responsibility for security in that flippant way seems to be little short of a disgrace—not only a disgrace, but deeply indicative of the Government's willingness to accept the
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  dictates of Mr. Brian Faulkner and his Unionist Cabinet. I believe that some concessions have to be made to avoid direct rule. The Government have made far more concessions, however, than the House should accept. They have made far more concessions than I am prepared to accept or remotely support.
  If the short-term solution is to be achieved before the solution which my right hon. Friend outlined comes about, a great deal more economic aid must be channelled into Northern Ireland. I am the first person to concede that since 1968 economic aid escalated under the Labour Government and has been further increased, under this Government, but I do not believe that it has expanded half as fast enough. Every Irish politician from Gratton through Parnell to Arthur Griffiths has talked as much about the economic difficulties of Northern Ireland as a result of policies which this House followed in the eighteenth and nineteeth centuries as he has talked about political freedom. Political freedom and economic prosperity have to go hand in hand.
  We owe the Irish people a debt for our economic policies of 100, and indeed 200, years ago. We have to start paying it in terms of our moral obligation and in terms of getting the political and economic situation right.
  Finally—and this attitude has permeated much of our debate—the Prime Minister must stop treating Stormont as if it were a sovereign power and the Prime Minister at Stormont as if he were Prime Minister of a sovereign nation. It is not a sovereign power and Mr. Faulkner is not Prime Minister of a sovereign nation. The right hon. Gentleman should stop negotiating with Mr. Faulkner as an equal. Stormont does not stand parallel to this House as a legislature. The right hon. Gentleman and the Home Secretary should exercise, one way or another, a great deal more control than they have done in the last 18 months. For that reason alone, if for no other, I would vote against the Government tonight.
  5.21 p.m.
  Mr. R. Chichester-Clark: After listening to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley), I am surprised that he takes from the passage of the Leader of the

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  Opposition's speech which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has quoted a rather different meaning about internment from that which the House takes. It seems that he has not done his homework in the thorough way he usually does. But, even if he did not take that meaning, he should have known the Leader of the Opposition's policy on this matter because when the right hon. Gentleman was pressed on this point in relation to the Special Powers Act in April, 1970 and it must be remembered that the situation had not escalated at all at that point to anything like the problem which had arisen before internment—he said that no Government—and he meant the Northern Ireland Government in particular could possibly be expected to do away with the Act, which contains the provisions for internment, in the circumstances prevailing at the time. The hon. Gentleman should have looked that passage up. If he does so, no doubt it will influence him tonight.
  I begin with a few somewhat mildly offensive words. They concern the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley).
  Rev. Ian Paisley: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I understand that the procedure is that when an hon. Member is going to launch an attack on another hon. Member he should give notice to that hon. Member. The hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Chichester-Clark) has on no occasion since I have been a Member of this House had the courtesy to inform me that he was going to attack me.
  Mr. Chichester-Clark: There is a problem. I had intended to give the hon. Gentleman notice this afternoon but I was told that he was lost in a fog, which is his customary posture. [HON. MEMBERS:" Others were here before him."] Others who had been caught in the fog were certainly here before him Apparently they got out a little earlier than he did.
  Until recently, I would not have expected misrepresentation from behind a clerical collar, but I have learnt my lesson now, especially after hearing the way in which the hon. Gentleman dealt with the statement I made in answer to the Leader of the Opposition. This was used by the hon. Gentleman for home
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  consumption on television to indicate that I was in some way or another in favour of a united Ireland. He knows the effect of that sort of statement at home. We ought to be used to instant politics from him, however. If he had heard the Leader of the Opposition—indeed, we might have expected him to be here on such an important occasion—he would have heard the speech and judged it more cautiously instead of delivering such calumnies against me. But, as I say we are used to his instant politics.
  Not long ago we heard from the hon. Gentleman that the dreaded direct rule was about to be imposed. He frightened the community in Northern Ireland. He said that he had it from an unimpeachable source and on the highest authority. Where now is that source? Where is that authority? I am comforted by the fact that in the community of Northern Ireland an increasing number of people know just how to judge his prophesies.
  After the Leader of the Opposition's speech, I said that I believed it to have been courageous, and I repeat that statement. It was courageous, if in certain respects more than somewhat misguided. He was, after all, attempting to carry his party in a bipartisan policy. I believe that for the sake of the long-suffering people of Northern Ireland, and in particular for the sake of the troops, that was the right policy to pursue. I regret the signs of it coming to an end.
  There were parts of the right hon. Gentleman's speech with which my friends and I found ourselves very much in agreement. The first was that violence must be rooted out. We believe that before any long-term proposals can be coolly and rationally examined that must be the case. Obviously, as the right hon. Gentleman mentioned, the troops must remain. Any one in his sane senses who has studied the situation would recognise that to be so. Naturally, we accept and totally agree with the reaffirmation of the Attlee pledge in the Downing Street Declaration of 1969. We agree that the Border cannot be changed by violence and that there can be no violent solution.
  But I must come to a point which, sometime or another, must be stated in these arguments. It will cause no surprise to hon. Members, and it must be said clearly. I say frankly that the proposition in the right hon. Gentleman's

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  speech leading to and involving united Ireland finds no favour with us—and that must be the understatement of the year. My hon. Friends and I and the large bulk of the people of Northern Ireland take that view.
  Mr. Simon Mahon: This is a very important point. The Prime Minister said at Guildhall that a united Ireland, or the dream of a united Ireland, was a laudable belief for anyone to hold, in Ireland or here. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said precisely the same thing. Would not it help all the people of Northern Ireland if they understood clearly that eventually a united and peaceful Ireland was a possibility? Would it not be to the hon. Gentleman's credit, and to mine, to agree on that?
  Mr. Chichester-Clark: I do not know whether my right hon. Friend used the word "laudable", and it matters little. I share the sentiment. It is a legitimate aspiration for anyone, including the minority, to want to work towards a united Ireland. I cannot see what the hon. Gentleman is worried about in what I am saying. It is equally laudable to want something different, to want to remain part of the United Kingdom. I do not see why we should not work towards that, and that is the end to which we are working.
  It may be that there are emotional reasons for a united Ireland. But no one has yet given me one reason which I regard as logical. To see why there is no really logical reason, one needs only look more closely at the 1½ million people making up the two distinct communities. They live, sometimes for one reason, sometimes for another, in different streets, often for preference; they often live in different districts. They go to separate schools. As the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) has commented sadly, they have a different history, a different cultural outlook. They even play different games, and they have a different ethic. One community originated with the Scots-English settlers, and the other conies from older waves of immigration into Ireland. The first category happens to be Protestant and the second Roman Catholic.
  The Protestant majority happens to base its values on the Protestant ethic,
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  with a strong belief in freedom of conscience in matters like marriage, divorce and contraception. It believes in freedom of education, and it has a strong belief in Sunday observance, restricted licensing and the rest—in all these matters and in aspects of art and literature. It is a fact that the Roman Catholic Community is wedded to the language and traditions of Dublin. When two such different cultures are side by side it is the classical recipe for strife. What I am saying is this—from the beginning the difference between the two communities has been as much a racial one as a religious one. I believe that the clue to knitting the two communities together—or rather the difficulty of knitting them together—can be found at least by looking at these things as readily in this country as in Northern Ireland itself.
  Let us look at the immigrants from the Republic to Britain, and at the Northern Catholics who come from Ulster to Britain. There is an interesting point. When they come here they do not lose their identity. They are usually readily identifiable by the kind of institutions they found and use—their Irish clubs, particular public houses which they frequent; latterly, even by the newspapers they read. That is the experience of many hon. Members. They congregate—and I could make a political point here if I wished—in particular areas. What happens to the Northern Protestants who come here? There are many thousands of them, yet we do not really know where they are? Why? It is because they assimilate, except in one or two areas, so much more easily into this community. They feel an identity, indeed they have an identity, with the people of this country.
  Mr. Orme: This is a very important point. In my constituency, there has been a large measure of Irish immigration going back two or three generations. They are now assimilated, and I cannot tell the difference between immigrants from the Republic and Protestant immigrants from Northern Ireland. In either case, if they are working class, they will both be supporting the Labour Party in all probability, although there is a chance that they could support the Conservative Party. They have moved away from the ghetto situation as the slums and the ghetto conditions have been cleared. For

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  the hon. Gentleman to say that the division is perpetrated in this country is nonsense. The fact is that the religious divisions do not exist here—thank God—and we must prevent them from doing so.
  Mr. Chichester-Clark: I have not said that anything was perpetrated in this country. I was stating what I believe to be the facts of the situation. Many of my hon. Friends agree that these are the facts. If the hon. Gentleman is so fortunate to have found assimilation so easily in his constituency, I am delighted, but I have noticed that he does not forget about the Irish immigrants in his constituency. I have noticed that over the last few years.
  I was talking about the Northern Protestants. These are the majority in Northern Ireland. They are essentially British. One may ask whether it would be a practical proposition to merge them into Southern Ireland. If one asks that question, one gets the other question, "Why does the Republic have so little trouble with its minority?" The question needs answering, and I believe that the answer is two-fold. First, the minority is so small, being only about 6 per cent., and I do not believe that one gets great trouble with minorities until the proportion reaches, say, about 20 per cent. Secondly, by and large in the Republic the minority consists of the Anglo-Irish. I do not wish to offend anyone, and I do not say this in any pejorative sense, but the point is that the Anglo-Irish in the South take what some might call a broader view of matters of life than do the Calvinist Presbyterians and so one gets considerably less trouble in the South upon that score.
  Dr. Conor Cruise O'Brien has been quoted often. When asked about the possibility in the foreseeable future of urging unity, he said that it would be to create in reverse in the South the problems which now exist in the North, because there was no hope of obtaining peace by offering instead of a solution unacceptable to one-third of the population in the area, a solution unacceptable to two thirds of these. I must make it plain that the proposition of a united Ireland is something that we would resist with all constitutional means open to us. We believe—and it is a perfectly sincere
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  and earnestly-held belief—that even discussion of it at this time would be dangerous. That is one of the limitations one must work under.
  Is what I have been saying about racial integration an argument for total integration of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom? The answer here must be, "No", for the foreseeable future. That simply at present does not bear discussion, not while the I.R.A. dictates, or tries to dictate, terms and use it as a kind of leverage for a united Ireland. The first object must be to crush the I.R.A. and expose the futility of violence.
  It is no secret to my hon. Friends that in the past I have had a good deal of sympathy for the idea of the integration of Northern Ireland with the United Kingdom. If means could be found, I would not oppose the exchange of the guarantees in the 1949 Act for a meaningful guarantee which would be virtually irreversible, by all parties in this House. One must face the fact that if that had come about years before the troubles arose in 1968 we would not be in the terrible position we are in today.
  Captain Walter Elliot: I am interested in my hon. Friend's argument about integration of the North and the South. I do not want to sound farfetched or facetious in any way, but many of us look on the whole of Ireland as part of the British Isles—I do not say part of the United Kingdom. Does my hon. Friend feel that, if we go into the Common Market, with Eire, this might have an effect eventually?
  Mr. Chichester-Clark: I was talking about integration into Britain, and my hon. and gallant Friend has mistaken my point. As far as integration into Britain at present is concerned, the majority are too frightened. I do not say this offensively to any section of this House, but they do not believe in any so-called lasting guarantees.
  Mr. Dick Douglas: Shame.
  Mr. Chichester-Clark: It may be a shame, and I agree, but it is a fact of life. For all that, it is something which in the long term should be tackled—to try to integrate what, after all, are British

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  people into Britain. But to do so we have to have guarantees like cement. We have to demonstrate that we mean what we say. It need not be as difficult a task as many of my hon. Friends imagine. After all, if the dissenting minority is to be convinced that the British way of life is better than any alternative, it is perhaps the best way to go about it.
  A survey conducted by Professor Rose some time ago recorded that 33 per cent. of the minority in Northern Ireland were actually in favour of union with this country. That is worth remembering. Admittedly, 34 per cent. were against. But, much more interesting, 32 per cent. were "don't knows", which indicates that at that time at least, whatever may have happened since—although some of this is still true—there was a middle ground which could have been worked on and influenced. But integration is out for the moment. It is only discussable when the people of Northern Ireland think that we in this Chamber mean it as a lasting place for them and not just as a palliative, before being handed over to the republic, which is a fear among them which we may as well acknowledge.
  As I said in September, the basic situation is that we shall have to get the gunmen out of Northern Ireland. For the sake of détente within the existing borders of Northern Ireland, I believe that if we can we should talk with anyone—anyone, that is, who does not believe in a violent solution. We can talk about old institutions being looked at again, about "revamping" them, and we can even talk about new ones, with the Home Secretary as the honest broker in the middle. The Leader of the Opposition acknowledged the reforms and changes which have been made in recent years and which will enable the minority to take part in public life. I passionately believe in all those reforms which have been brought in.
  It is said that the changes are inadequate and that they do not function. But one is entitled to ask: have they ever been given a chance? The Leader of the Opposition reminded us of Mr. Faulkner's proposals of a parliamentary committee, with key chairmanships for minority members, which were welcomed at the time by the S.D.L.P. He reminded us that they left Parliament as stated for quite another reason. These proposals
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  were not to be taken just on their own. They followed a very large programme of other legislation, including franchise modernisation, which we were constantly told by the S.D.L.P. was the very kernel of the trouble in Northern Ireland.
  Neither the S.D.L.P. nor many of its supporters have been willing to examine the long-term effects of minority participation in this very great variety of new approaches. Nor have they been willing to give credit to the change of attitudes on the part of the majority in Northern Ireland which their implementation represents. Look at the new district councils. Those will provide many more opportunities for participation. So will the area boards. If the proposition goes through, the size of the House of Commons and the Senate, which is going to be enlarged, will provide more opportunities. Mr. Faulkner himself, on his recent appointment to the Cabinet in Northern Ireland, has shown yet another opportunity.
  But most important of all the opportunities are the functional committees, which are really quite unprecedented. Certainly there is nothing like them in this country. I do not believe their uniqueness has been recognised by hon. Members opposite, nor have they given credit for the proposition. Short of the Cabinet itself, there should not now be any post in Northern Ireland which a member of the minority, even one who actually opposes the State in which he lives, cannot take if he is willing to take it. I wonder in what other country is that the case?
  Mr. Simon Mahon: What about Harland and Woolf?
  Mr. Chichester-Clark: I do not know what the hon. Gentleman is talking about. He usually makes better contributions than that.
  Have the reforms been tried? If not, can anyone say that they have really been found wanting? Have the minority themselves been given a chance to try out the reforms? Of course they have not. That is the point. One side of this House will say that that is because of internment, and we on this side of the House may say it is because of intimidation. It does not really matter which it is. The eventual solution can only be found after the intimidation is removed

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  and then internment ended as speedily as possible. Then the solution must come about by agreement within Northern Ireland if it is to be a lasting and real solution.
  Here I find myself strangely at one with the leader of the S.D.L.P., the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt), whom I do not see here at the moment. He said some time back "that Stormont is the only institution that can bring about reform in Northern Ireland". With all its shortcomings, it is Stormont that can bring about that solution in the end. If I were able, I would say to the minority in Northern Ireland that the majority's attitude has changed. What the majority is now waiting for is a sign from the minority that theirs has, too. "It is easy enough", I would say to the minority, "to excuse your silence now, in the shadow of the gunmen, but unless your leaders are prepared to stand up and talk we shall all become the victims of the gunman as we watch the tragic spectacle of your community sliding further and further into anarchy."
  I have given some of the reasons why one of the main propositions in the right hon. Gentleman's speech last Thursday must be, so far as we are concerned, one for rejection. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Down, South (Captain Orr) gave others on Thursday night. It is not easy in the present situation to put forward new and constructive ideas. It is also sometimes necessary to be firmly negative.
  So, I must conclude by making it absolutely clear that the one issue of a united Ireland and the discussion leading to it is something on which we cannot and will not compromise. I speak for my hon. Friends in the Unionist Party on this matter. Let it be plainly understood that if this argument is pushed forward it will be dangerous, and, for our part, it will be met with unrelieved, unrelenting and unending opposition.
  5.45 p.m.
  Mr. Russell Johnston: Despite the speech of the hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Chichester-Clark), I am afraid that I consider, as do other hon. Members, that the genesis of this horrible situation in Northern Ireland lies not in a particular proportion of the
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  minority but in the treatment which the majority gave to the minority over many years. Despite what the hon. Gentleman says about his passionate belief in the reforms which have been introduced, I remember that when the solitary Liberal was in Stormont, Sheila Murnaghan, for four successive years she introduced a Bill of Human Rights, and the degree of passionate support of those rights which she derived from the Unionist benches was one abstention on one occasion and no support at all.
  The hon. Gentleman cannot say, in spite of his interesting arguments on the racial, religious and deep-rooted differences between groups, that the genesis of this horrible situation lies other than in the fact that the majority, for whatever reasons, did not treat the minority as it should have done, and eventually the minority inevitably reacted against it.
  Mr. Chichester-Clark: The hon Gentleman was talking about Stormont. It is, of course, very easy to make assertions of 50 years of misrule and injustice. As in all these statements, there is something in that. But it is also easy, although I think unprofitable, to talk about 50 years of negative and unco-operative opposition when there were so many occasions when members of the minority with a sense of responsibility wished to come forward and take part in public life and they were so ill treated as a result of their willingness by their own co-religionists that it was impossible for them to continue. I can give the hon. Gentleman in private several leading examples; indeed, I have done so in public.
  Mr. Johnston: I doubt whether there is any profit in our continuing this particular argument now.
  Before turning to the specific point which the Home Secretary made at the beginning of his speech, I should like the Home Secretary's reaction on one matter. He inevitably dealt for a large part of his speech with the speech of the Leader of the Opposition on Thursday and with the particular initiatives that he proposed. I want specifically to ask about what he said in reaction to the initiative of the Leader of the Opposition for all-party discussions here and in Stormont. He said, as I understand, that he welcomed both these initiatives. I

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  think I am correct in saying that. Certainly on these benches that is of considerable importance in determining what we may do tonight.
  I will go into this in more detail later, but I want to be clear about the basis on which one is operating. I do not think the best way to begin all-party discussions is to divide. But I want to be clear that all-party discussions are intended. I will give way to the Home Secretary if he feels that I have in any way misrepresented him in what he said at the beginning of the debate, although I do not think I did.
  I turn now to the Leader of the Opposition's initiatives, which I regard as undoubtedly the most important move made in this whole business in recent months, or, perhaps, even year. I go along with what was said by the right hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. George Thomson) about the significance of his right hon. Friend's speech.
  There were, I think, three matters in particular in the Leader of the Opposition's speech which Liberals would welcome. First, there was his statement that there would be no question of withdrawal of British troops for so long as they were necessary. I think that we are all agreed about that. Second—again, despite what was said by the hon. Member for Londonderry—there was the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that practical steps be now taken to consider just what would be involved in unification, without necessarily in any way breaching the principle of majority consent. We would regard that as a good move which might open the way to a fruitful discussion—the word is not "dialogue"—on this question. Third, the proposal that responsibility for security be clearly removed to Westminster is one on which we would lay stress.
  The points upon which Liberals would, perhaps, lay more stress than did the Leader of the Opposition are these. In the first place, we wish to see repeal of the Special Powers Act. I shall not go over the argument that we have had so many times. I think that internment was inevitable. We have already had an argument about what the Leader of the Opposition meant, and I shall not quote his words again, but I thought that in his speech on Thursday the right hon.
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  Gentleman recognised that those who are presently interned cannot just be released. I regard as valuable the suggestion by Mr. Conor Cruse O'Brien, which was touched on by the right hon. Member for Dundee, East. None of us likes internment, none of us wants this sort of situation to prevail, but a judicial committee sitting in camera might offer a way of letting people out more quickly than seems possible at the moment, since one cannot, for the reasons which have already been gone into, institute the normal kind of criminal proceedings one would otherwise wish to see.
  I cannot, however, understand quite what the right hon. Member for Dundee, East meant with reference to the Opposition Motion. The crux of the Motion is the question of internment, and, certainly, his references to that generated the greatest degree of sympathetic noise from the benches behind. Yet I cannot see how we can get out of this situation now unless some such suggestion as that made by Conor Cruse O'Brien, commented on by the right hon. Member for Dundee, East, is taken up, and the point must surely be fairly given to the Home Secretary that, in his general observations regarding the basis of all-party discussions, he clearly showed that he was prepared—he repeated it more than once—to look carefully at and to discuss any possible solution. I hope that we may take it that he would not exclude such a proposal but look urgently at it, urgency being a vital ingredient of the exercise.
  If we are prepared to deal with internment in that way, however, recognising that it will continue for a time, we must remove for the future the Special Powers Act provisions which are so deeply resented by many people.
  Second, there was a lack of firm commitment in what the Leader of the Opposition said about proportional representation. The hon. Member for Londonderry reminded us that the Protestant minority in Southern Ireland is small, about 6 per cent. Yet it is a fact, I believe, that there has been a Protestant Minister in practically every Government of Eire since its independence after the First World War. It is extremely important that a method of enabling the minorities to be effectively represented—this is of special significance

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  in local government—be introduced as soon as possible.
  There have been many references to the need to have Catholic representation in the Stormont Government, and Catholic representation not chosen by the Gov-ernment but elected by the Opposition. This is important. It is no good saying, "Let us have a tame Catholic nominee". We must have someone whom the Oppo sition elects, since only in that way can we create a situation in which the minority can have some commitment to Stormont, an involvement in Stormont, and a feeling of trust in Stormont, for trust is the great thing absent today. One thinks in this connection of Switzerland, for example, where there are deep linguistic and national differences but where such a system is operated with remarkable success.
  I have no wish to impinge too much upon the time of hon. Members who are heavily concerned in Northern Ireland's affairs, so I shall be as brief as I can. I come now, therefore, in conclusion to the constitutional question, to call it that. The Home Secretary recalled that a suggestion had been made for periodic referenda. I do not like the referendum as a method for reaching decisions. By and large, it is a bad method, in my view. Nevertheless, political circumstances may always arise which lead one to set aside a general principle which one otherwise holds.
  The great trouble with successive elections to Stormont and indeed to this House from Northern Ireland is that each becomes in itself a referendum on the Border. The Unionist Party says, "We are the only ones you can really rely on to keep the Border. Forget all about the gradations of political opinion which you or we may hold. We are the chaps to keep the Border, so elect us". It is difficult, therefore, for the moderate voice to express itself. [Interruption.] It is all very well for hon. Members opposite to frown and murmur. The drift of Prime Ministers from O'Neill onwards has not been a drift to the Left; it has been a drift to the Right as pressures forced each leader out.
  The great problem is to isolate the constitutional issue from the normal elections. Therefore, if one could say
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  that the constitutional future of Northern Ireland would be determined by a referendum, this would allow a great deal more flexibility in elections to Stormont, and it is flexibility in elections to Stormont which is so necessary, for gentlemen like the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) have exerted considerable influence and considerable pressure upon Unionists who have but seldom dissented from such views themselves and who only recently felt able at all then to take up the views which the hon. Member expresses, as the hon. Member for Londonderry did today.
  It is a sad and sorry business, but we must not give up hope. Provided that the Home Secretary responds as I hope he will, to the questions which I have asked. I should recommend to my right hon. and hon. Friends on this bench that we abstain rather than be involved in a direct breach vote at this stage when there is hope, largely due to the initiative of the Leader of the Opposition, of a new move and a new attempt to bring peace to this sorry Province.
  6.0 p.m.
  Mr. Derek Coombs: I am sure that most hon. Members will agree that the history of Northern Ireland is certainly not a creditable chapter in the annals of British history. Successive British Governments must accept their responsibility for decades of injustice and inactivity. Since 1965 we have witnessed the mishandling of a very delicate situation, a catalogue of errors either in an inability to comprehend that grievances existed or in a belief in the early years—this was the critical period, which the Opposition would do well to remember—that it was better to leave what superficially seemed to be well alone.
  One dislikes now apportioning blame between respective Governments, but both parties should acknowledge their responsibities for what has happened and express their determination to profit from it. It would be equally unfair to suggest that the fault lies only at Westminster, for no side—Dublin, Belfast or London—can escape blame for this disease. Ireland is a haemophiliac country where scars not only do not heal but are passed on, through the mother it is said, from generation to generation. The view which sees

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  the North of Ireland as the last stronghold of a Protestant garrison continually resisting the struggle of the Irish nation towards full independence can be misleading. There is an ever present temptation—I know, for I have indulged in it myself—to explain the very complex forces which mould the political life of Ulster in terms of false simplicity.
  As Winston Churchill once said,
  "great empires have been overturned, the whole map of Europe has been changed, the mood and thought of men, the whole outlook on affairs, the grouping of parties, all have encountered violence and tremendous changes in the deluge of the world, but as the deluge subsides and the waters fall, we see the dreary steeples of Fermanagh and Tyrone emerging once again. The integrity of their quarrel is one of the few institutions that have been unaltered in the cataclysm which has swept the world. It has still not been altered"
  Even now, in an utterly changed world, the splinter of the Irish bone remains in the English throat.
  But solution there must be, and now more than ever both moderate Catholic and Protestant people need to stand up and be counted. They now need the will to control their own extremists difficult and dangerous though this may be. The Provisionals in a bizarre fashion, associate themselves with civil rights. If it is a civil right to become an executioner, acting against the law and against the long-term interests of all in Ireland, then the gunmen of the Provisionals uphold civil rights.
  But the bloodshed in Northern Ireland cannot be stopped by simple condemnations or simply by wishing it away. I believe that alongside security measures there must be some new political initiatives. Having said that, one is not suggesting that there is an easy solution, or that our Government are not constantly seeking to find one. But I do believe that sometimes back benchers can take initiatives on their own account which Ministers would find it impossible to do, and for this reason I feel that our trip might have served some useful purpose.
  I turn now to the Irish Government in Dublin. They know full well that any form of unity is totally unrealistic without the ultimate consent of the majority in Ulster, and Dublin realises that this consent can never be secured without first establishing stability in the Province. The Government of Ireland, like the Catholic Church, is in a quandry.
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  On the one hand, it condemns violence, and yet it is deeply and emotionally affected by the difficulties of the Catholics in the North.
  All the main political parties in the South are, broadly speaking, totally opposed to the Provisionals, and even the I.R.A. is divided within itself. They all know that a terrorist victory in the North would be just as disastrous for them as it would be for the Protestants. Ironically, it could conceivably well start as civil war in the South setting Catholic against Catholic, Provisional against Official and then dangerously engulf the Irish Government itself.
  The political wing of the official I.R.A., Sinn Fein, is now a registered party and is seeking representation in the Dâil, but it is not likely to claim much support. Why, then, the difficulty? The answer lies in the fact that while the Irish Government themselves cannot act, the Provisionals can and do. The Irish Government condemn these men, but cannot as yet move against them because—and this we must try to understand—for them to do so would be to deny the Catholics in the ghettos their moral support, which to many would seem like a betrayal of the Republic's very existence.
  Mr. John Wilkinson: Is my hon. Friend saying that unless the Government in Dublin give overt or tacit support to the activities of the Provisionals in the I.R.A., they will not be judged by their compatriots to be sympathetic to the lawful aspirations of the Catholics in the North of Ireland? It so, it is an extraordinary statement.
  Mr. Coombs: Regretfully, I am saying that. I think that it is wrong and, while I sympathise with their problems, I cannot agree with them. For I do not believe—and this answers my hon. Friend—that they serve their real interests or the long-term interests of Ireland in this way. They must measure their actions very carefully, otherwise they themselves will come to bear as much responsibility for denying civil rights to the Catholics in the North as any reactionary Protestant Parliament in Stormont. Incidentally, the I.R.A., as we all know, is divided into several separate groups. I think four in all, but whichever faction within the generic term, I.R.A., they must be made to realise that they can

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  never hope to achieve a united Ireland with a alienated Protestant population.
  We must ask ourselves why the Catholics rejected the Provisionals from 1956 to 1962 and why they have accepted them now. Any responsible person will acknowledge that the Catholics have had a raw deal in the past. They have been virtually disenfranchised which successive Governments, both Labour and Conservative, have failed to understand and deal with. The Labour Government did nothing for four years when civil rights reared its head, and reacted only when they had no other choice. Reforms have always come too late and Protestantism is still identified with racial ascendancy. For the people in the Bogside and the Falls the terrorist Provisional has become a kind of vigilante protecting them not only from the British Army, but also, lest we forget, from the Protestants. This is what we must try to break down.
  But what of the Ulster Government? It is about time they recognised that their bigotry, stemming no doubt from a deep sense of insecurity, has given rise to the present situation. That their insensitivity has forced moderate people through sheer frustration to be associated with professional killers whose methods would normally be totally alien to them. Their allegiance to the Crown cannot be based on the hollow creed, "You have our support provided you in turn endorse our sectarian rule."
  Mr. Simon Mahon: As a Catholic of Irish descent, whose family has lived in this country for generations, I must take the hon. Gentleman to task. What support has he for his opinion that Catholics are lending themselves to killers? Has he not heard of the overwhelming condemnation by Catholic authorities of the killing and of the views of millions of people like myself in this country who want nothing to do with the I.R.A.?
  Mr. Coombs: The hon. Gentleman has entirely missed my point. I am saying that they have been forced into the position where, whether they like it or not, willy they become associated with the Provisionals, where the Provisionals have become their custodians, and this is what we have to face.
  Mr. McMaster rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I hope that there will not be too many interruptions, for there are very many hon. Members who wish to speak.
  Mr. Coombs: I know that there are many who feel that Stormont will never offer any meaningful participation and that direct rule is the only recourse. I tend to share this view, but, on the other hand, I feel that there are men of good will on both sides and that Protestant good will can be tested only provided that talks begin. I do not believe that any British Government, of whichever party, is likely to allow direct rule until it is conclusively proved, after negotiation, that moderate opinion on both sides is unable to reach agreement, and this must be put to the test.
  The I.R.A., using the term generically, must be restricted in its power of decision, because it is too committed to unworkable propositions with force as its only platform. However, there is an emotional power source at this moment of time and withdrawal must be accompanied by a reason that is both visible and popularly acceptable. Paradoxically, the credibility of our British Army units in Catholic eyes can only be bolstered by our supplying that reason, and a sufficiently acceptable one at that, which, like justice, must be seen to be right and patently motivated to take the hate out of the crisis.
  What is required is a gesture from both Westminster and Stormont of unanticipated magnanimity, or the professional will stay on the streets, using the threat implied by rumour or uninvestigated allegations, and our soldiers will continue to die. In consequence of a reason that can be observed and understood, there would follow as a sequence an elevation of Protestant and Catholic confrontation to a plateau where dialogue rather than bullets dictated the issues of order and justice.
  We in London, Birmingham, Leeds and elsewhere can talk in detail about an hour, a day, or an incident in the middle of last week, but the Irish of Cork, Galway and the Bogside can talk of 50 years ago as if it were last week. Perhaps the curse of a long memory in this age of shorthand communication is at rock bottom a burdensome thing; but so is the Bourbon malady of learning nothing and forgetting nothing.

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  Let there be no mistake about it—the intention of the Provisionals is to reduce to rubble the economic potential of Northern Ireland by undermining its social and industrial fabric. The function of the terrorist is to render Government impossible, but their hold over the Catholic community cannot be replaced by simple force. Our Army cannot answer this on its own; it cannot succeed because the answers are in the no-go enclaves and on the streets.
  However, to confine the problem to a Northern Ireland context is obviously an evasion of the causes of the conflict. That is why I welcomed the recent meeting of the three Prime Ministers and also some of the new proposals by the Leader of the Opposition, for attempts directed only at curing the effects and not the causes can lead to nothing but further division and hate. The practical problem is: how to isolate the extremists? It is to our shame that we have avoided this issue and have not sat round the table like civilised beings years ago and discussed it in a rational and constructive manner. It is my firm conviction that if this community of interests between the people of our two islands had been adopted by Westminster, Dublin and Belfast, all the other problems would appear to be soluble now.
  Therefore, my first request is this—that we call together immediately a conference of representatives of Government and Opposition parties from Westminster, Dublin and Belfast to study the community of interests between our two islands and in this context to work out an agreed solution to the Northern Ireland situation on a realistic and compassionate basis. In this I am not echoing the new proposals of the Leader of the Opposition, for, much as I would like to see a united Ireland, I feel that he has rather impulsively pitched his starting point too high. Certainly his original plan for talks was not successful because it did not specify a precise agenda, but, at the other extreme, we are not likely to get a constitutional discussion moving straight away. It would therefore seem infinitely more practical to start a dialogue rather more modestly on social and economic co-operation, this to be held at Ministerial level, bringing in, of course, the Opposition parties. I believe that this could well prove acceptable to both North and South and produce significant gains in all fields.
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  The way to stop the Provisionals is not just by military means, but by isolating them from the country from which they draw their support. A conference of this kind could well establish that good will and provide that means. At that stage, should the bombing or shooting campaign continue, the Dublin and Belfast Governments might well decide themselves actively to co-operate on both sides of the border against it.
  Most people, whether north or south of the Border, know that a united Ireland can be achieved only through constitutional means which can be expressed either through Ulster's elected representatives, as in the 1949 Act, or provided that it is the wish of the majority of the people living there. The S.D.L.P. leaders must realise that talks are essential and that, by refusing to talk until internment is finished, unwittingly they are delaying the end of internment.
  At the same time, it would be wrong for Mr. Faulkner to reject good men in his Cabinet simply because they believe in the ultimate reunification of Ireland, which could take place at some future date or not at all. Equally, these good men, too, should express their belief that their ideal can be accomplished only with the overwhelming will of the people of Northern Ireland, and not otherwise. In the meantime, let them all work together for the sake of the present. Let them strive to establish peace and goodwill between all citizens, and leave their successors and future generations to agree on what should be the light at the end of the tunnel.
  The Catholics are not asking to dominate the Northern Ireland Parliament. I do not believe that they are seeking even a 50/50 basis because, in practical terms, that would not be representative. What I think they desire is total equality guaranteed by some say in Government at decision-making level. This seems to me to be both eminently fair and reasonable, and will, I hope, be supported by both sides of this House.
  One suggestion that I would make, separate from changes in the Stormont Administration, refer to local government in Northern Ireland dealing with people at grass roots level. To begin with, we should recognise that votes in the foreseeable future will be cast on a sectarian basis and that this state of affairs will

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  not be changed in the immediate term by trying to pretend otherwise. In short, we should acknowledge it and come to terms with it.
  My proposition is simply in every local government election there should be a minimum of four candidates, two Catholics and two Protestants, and that each elector should vote for two people, one of whom must be Protestant and one of whom must be Catholic. Automatically, therefore, Catholics and Protestants would have an equal balance in local government regardless of whether the area was Protestant or Catholic-dominated. Catholics would be competing against each other to obtain the Protestant vote just as much as Protestants would be competing to obtain the Catholic vote, which would be highly desirable. Needless to say, whether a person cast a second vote would be immaterial. It would mean simply a lower poll for second choice, but still the same proportional representation would apply.
  Such an arrangement need only operate for a period of, say, five or 10 years, but to my mind it would be the catalyst whereby religious barriers were eventually broken down and normal political attitudes developed. I realise that this is an unusual suggestion, but we are dealing with a unique situation which cannot be handled by strictly conventional means. I am sure that it would not be beyond the wit of the legislators to incorporate this in the new Local Government Bill, covering the 26 districts for the 1972 elections. Obviously, this would be totally unworkable at Stormont level, which must be reorganised on a different basis. What is more, it would not in any way affect Westminster representation. However, I believe that it would go a long way locally, which is most important to bring the two communities closer together.
  The rights of the majority as well as of the minority have to be protected. Therefore, we reach three conclusions. The first is that Mr. Faulkner should ignore the extreme elements in his party, recognise the realities, and do what I am sure Lord O'Neill would have done—offer a hand of friendship, for, in practical terms, only he can do it.
  Secondly, the moderate Catholic leaders, many of whom are losing their
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  influence, must be helped back into the fold by Mr. Faulkner, and they in turn, must be willing to come not on sell-out terms but on terms that offer genuine justice to the Catholic communities.
  Thirdly, as a gesture of goodwill by the British Government, further internment, not arms searches, should cease for a short period to see whether a genuine dialogue can begin. This war will never be resolved on a purely military basis, it never can be, and I hope that it was not conceived in that way. If this fails, one is left with implacable hatred, and many more lives will be lost needlessly which otherwise could have been saved. In the final analysis, we shall come back to a solution of this kind, whether we like it or not.
  This is the time for moderate leaders from both Catholic and Protestant communities to declare themselves to put forward new proposals which will allow a breathing-space for talks to begin and for political initiatives to develop. This could well be the last chance. Concessions will have to be made from both sides, with Stormont representing not a citadel of hatred but a citadel of democracy and justice which is concerned with the interests of all citizens throughout Northern Ireland. The goodwill and serious intent of both sides can be judged only by the outcome of these talks.
  There must be a means of maintaining a constitutional framework within Northern Ireland which is acceptable to both Protestant and Catholic alike, but it does require reasoned men with open minds and open hearts. Whether courageous leaders of such calibre exist, neither seeking nor demanding total surrender from one side or the other, is the acid test. What is certain is that, if their voices are not heard soon, they will not be heard at all.
  6.22 p.m.
  Mr. Kenneth Lomas: The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Mr. Coombs) made a competent and courageous speech, though I feel that he spoiled it towards the end by trying to dot too many i's and cross too many t's. Nevertheless, we on this side of the House recognise the sincerity with which he expressed his views.
  The reason why I intervene in this debate is that I was in Belfast all day

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  on Friday of last week. I was in that city immediately following the debates in this House. Anyone who has been to Belfast recently has no desire to make party political points. It is a city which, in parts, is bleeding to death. I was appalled by what I saw in certain parts of the city. I had the opportunity to travel through the Falls Road area and the Ballymurphy estate, where I found a sense of total despair, and where no one knows what to do about the situation. Incidentally, if I had been in College Square 10 minutes earlier than I was, Mr. Speaker, you would have been shortly issuing a Writ for a by-election in my constituency.
  When the bombs explode and one sees the problem that the average citizen faces, one realises deeply the despair of Northern Ireland. As one goes along the Falls Road and through the Ballymurphy Estate, there are no lights. The lamp standards are bruised, battered and hanging over. The cables are hanging loose. There is no public transport, because the Corporation does not allow buses to travel down those streets and its bus drivers do not and cannot drive their buses there, anyway. One feels that here is part of a city which is almost without hope, and is full of intimidation and fear.
  I wish to say unreservedly that hon. Members on this side of the House should condemn the activities of the I.R.A. There can be no excuse for those who seek to maim or kill innocent people or destroy public buildings. However, it should be made clear that it is not true that all Catholics support the I.R.A. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bootle (Mr. Simon Mahon) said, they do not. In many instances, they are frightened to condemn—
  Mr. Coombs: When the hon. Gentleman comes to read my speech, I do not think he will find that I said that at all. I said that the Catholics had been forced into an invidious position where basically they were frightened and intimidated by the I.R.A. I do not think that they find their position any more tenable than hon. Members do.
  Mr. Lomas: I was not referring to the hon. Gentleman's speech when I said that. I was putting forward my own opinion based on what I saw and heard
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  during my visit and on what I have heard in recent months.
  When I was in Belfast, I heard of examples which came not from Irish people, north or south of the Border, but from English people running factories in the Province. They gave the examples of some of the I.R.A.'s activities. They told me how Catholic people were taken from a works because they had informed on the I.R.A. Having had their kneecaps broken, they finished up on the doorsteps of the works from which they had been taken. Activities of that sort are evil and are to be condemned. However, they are no more evil than some of the atrocities and brutalities committed by the Ulster Volunteer Forces. There is evil on both sides.
  I condemn all violence. I believe that a peaceful, just and rightful settlement can never be achieved by violent means. However, unlike some of my hon. Friends. I do not condemn internment as such. I felt that it was a necessary step to safeguard the lives of innocent people. What I say about internment is that those who are interned have the right to be brought to trial charged with whatever crime they are suspected of perpetrating, within a few days of being picked up. I take the view that imprisoning people without trial is a total negation of human rights.
  Mr. Bidwell: Is my hon. Friend aware that it is characteristic that internment is of a one-sided character?
  Mr. Lomas: I am prepared to say that if there are people on the Protestant or Catholic sides who are suspected of or likely to perform acts of atrocity, the security forces have every right to take those people and hold them. Once they are held, however, be they Roman Catholic or Protestant, they have the right to be charged with the crimes that they are supposed to have committed.
  In Belfast, I saw the tension under which our forces are operating. It has to be seen to be believed. Our troops in Belfast are living virtually on their nerves. Unless something is done soon by this Government, the Army will be forced, with every justification, into reacting to the accusations made against them. This will not be good, either for the Province or for the British Army.

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  The tragedy is that British troops were sent in to maintain law and order and to protect the minority against the majority. Today, our soldiers are looked upon as the tools of a reactionary Stormont Government. It is time that the British Government spelled out their policy towards Northern Ireland more clearly than anything we have heard so far today.
  Like many other hon. Members, I am sick and tired of listening to arguments about battles which were won and lost 60 years ago and even 300 years ago. It is time to put those behind us. We must recognise that, whatever our religious beliefs, we are human beings and we should be able to live side by side with each other.
  As I see it, the Stormont Government were forced to make certain concessions and reforms as a result of violence. The net result is that people in Northern Ireland now regard violence as one of the answers to their problems. What the Stormont Government have done, or promised to do, is too little and too late. I think that they recognise these facts themselves. On Friday afternoon, I spoke to Mr. Kenneth Bloomfield, who is Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet. I think that he accepts that something has to be done.
  I come now to one or two suggestions. I think that what Her Majesty's Government should do is to persuade Mr. Faulkner, to begin with, to try to bring the communities together. One way might be by asking the Churches of the two communities to unite and to preach peace instead of hate, and law and order instead of disorder. If there is any authority left in either of the Churches, we should try to get their leaders together and persuade them to knock out between themselves some kind of agreed policy. Above all, we should persuade them to stand between the opposing forces. When young children of eight, nine, ten or eleven throw stones, bricks and nail bombs, I should like to see an army of priests or ministers standing between them and the soldiers instead of inculcating hatred in the minds of young people. If we profess to be Christians then let us act like Christians. It would be a pleasant change. The message from Mr.
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  Bloomfield, Deputy Secretary of the Cabinet at Stormont is plain: he is telling the Opposition parties in Stormont to sit down and talk. He gave me an assurance that if the Opposition parties at Stormont would talk, then internment and all the injustices which they rightly accuse the Stormont Government of perpetrating could be items one and two on the agenda.
  For goodness' sake, let us ask those people in opposition, distinguished people, important people, practical people, to go back to the place to which they were democratically elected, sit round a table and hammer out some policy. I believe and hope that one day Ireland will be united. I want that to happen. It may be that it will be united within the context of a United Europe. Whether or not that comes about, Ireland can never be united by violence, but only by the democratic will of people, north and south of the Border.
  Before that happens, it is, as the Leader of the Opposition said, crucial and vital that law and order should be restored in Northern Ireland. I do not believe that the problems of Ulster will be solved by extremists on either side; they will be solved by rational people, moderates and not revolutionaries.
  On Friday last I was in a Protestant household where they told me that they have lived for years in peace with their Catholic neighbours. It was only when suddenly The Red Lion public house was blown up at the end of the road and they found friends of theirs in hospital with 100 stitches in their faces that they felt tempted to become extremists. This is what is happening all the time.
  What do we mean when talking about a minority in Northern Ireland? One thing must be spelled out. All Catholics are not nationalists and all nationalists are not Catholics. There are Catholics who wish to remain in the United Kingdom and equally there are Protestants who would prefer a united Ireland. We must understand that when we are talking about a minority, we are talking in many instances about the nationalist minority as against the Catholic one.
  Mr. Orme: Perhaps that argument might have been true only months ago. But did my hon. Friend find anyone on

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  the Catholic side who was not a nationalist or anyone on the Protestant side who was not a Unionist?
  Mr. Lomas: Yes. I spoke to both Catholic and Protestant and some people said that they believed in a united Ireland provided that Ireland entered the Commonwealth. That is open to argument. Some Catholics have said that because of the I.R.A. they wished to remain under the protection of the United Kingdom. I take the view that the minority is entitled to argue its rights, but it has no right to inflict suffering and hardship on the people of Northern Ireland.
  The argument has been advanced that there should be an end to bipartisanship. I hope that whatever the vote it is possible, that we shall be able to speak with a united voice of the Westminster Government and that we can go to Mr. Faulkner's Government and speak to him and to the Opposition parties and also to the Government of the Irish Republic. Just as I believe that Mr. Faulkner's Government must grant the elementary basic rights to the Catholics of Northern Ireland, which they have for so long been denied, so Mr. Lynch must be prepared to consider and talk about the proposals outlined in the speech of the Leader of the Opposition. More than that, he must be prepared to condemn unreservedly the activities of the I.R.A.
  Ireland must not be united over dead bodies, neither those of the soldiers nor the citizens of North or South, Catholic or Protestant, but by the mutual desires of people from both sides. The agony of Belfast must be ended. We are not talking about an academic problem but about future generations—about the child being born today, the child of ten years old, the child that has been indoctrinated with hatred. We must stop this; peace and hope for the future must be the order of the day. Let all men of good will and good faith condemn what is going on from both sides, and work for a democratic government that will extend the hand of friendship and human rights to everyone irrespective of creed, colour, religion or political persuasion.
  6.38 p.m.
  Mr. Angus Maude: I shall try to follow the hon. Member for
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  Huddersfield, West (Mr. Lomas) in speaking with moderation. The trouble about those who have tried to understand the Ulster situation and to look at it objectively is that they soon find themselves tempted to give up hope and say that there is no solution at all. The difficulty, the trouble and the danger is that it becomes fatally easy to look for a facile solution and to believe that one has found the answer.
  I have never had much doubt that the Labour Party would come round to the idea of a united Ireland. When we had the debate on the Adjournment for the Summer Recess, the right hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. Michael Stewart) brought forward the suggestion as though he had just discovered it himself. It did not require much imagination to see that a number of his colleagues would, in the end, have to follow him, first because there is no other solution that they could bring forward to satisfy their Irish supporters, and secondly, because it sounds all right as a solution—yet it is not one at all.
  I do not agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry (Mr. Chichester-Clark) about the total, ultimate impossibility of some kind of union in Ireland. In the past I have said that I thought it possible that, in a generation or two, it might be conceivable for some federal association of one kind or another to emerge with the United Kingdom, in which the two halves of Ireland would be in closer association with each other. I do not think that this is a practical or feasible proposition now, nor did the Leader of the Opposition, who talked in terms of 15 years. I found the speech of the Leader of the Opposition interesting. It was an honest, genuine and statesmanlike attempt to grapple with a problem which, politically, he has no hope of answering to the satisfaction of his party.
  We have listened today to the right hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. George Thomson) trying to reconcile the irreconcilable, not only in the Opposition's Motion but between the speech of the Leader of the Opposition on Thursday and the Motion today. We have also listened to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) trying to wriggle away from a perfectly clear statement by his party leader that he thought that internment

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  should continue, and trying to prove that the sentence meant the reverse. This is the kind of difficulty which, unfortunately, the Opposition get into once they start on the slippery path towards advocating a united Ireland as if it were the solution to the problem with which we are now faced. It is not and it cannot be. Before I try to show why it cannot be, may we just try to shed our prejudices and convictions and attempt to look at the matter objectively and ask ourselves afresh: why should it be a solution? Why has anyone ever thought it should be or could be a solution?
  Mr. Orme: It is one country and they are all Irish, that is why.
  Mr. Maude: Let us look at this objectively. It is an island, a smallish country. If I heard the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) right, he said that they are all Irish. This is not true, and if he believes that, then he is not within 100 miles of understanding the problem. The majority of people in Northern Ireland do not call themselves Irish. I have been over there again and again and I do not think that I have ever heard, at a Unionist or any other Protestant meeting in Northern Ireland, the word "Ireland" or "Irish" mentioned except in terms of opprobrium. They do not consider themselves Irish; they do not call themselves Irish.
  Just for the sake of argument, will the hon. Member accept that this is the fact and let us see where it gets us? What talk of a united Ireland does is to conjure up the idea that a two to one majority is to be asked to become a four to one or five to one minority in a country with a much lower standard of living and with social and political customs, arising out of the influence of the Roman Catholic Church, which the majority in the North finds deeply repugnant. That would be a difficult enough thing to try to achieve, but the question is why it should ever be thought, even without that, that it should work.
  I would remind the House that on every occasion when we in Westminster have tried to impose a federal solution on differing communities in the same geographical area, it has always failed. The usual result has been civil war, as we have seen in Nigeria. It is just
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  possible that this might be a situation analogous to Cyprus, but there is no reason why it should be. All the precedents for trying to unite different communities in geographical juxtaposition into one State show that the odds are against it. In this case we might as well admit that the odds are pretty large. Maybe one day we can find a way, but we have not found it yet.
  While I admired immensely the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, it struck me that it had certain dangers—and I am not trying to make political points because this is too desperately dangerous and serious a matter. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman has considered two things. If he says that the ultimate objective is and should be a united Ireland, what will be the effect on those who say, "But this is what the I.R.A. is fighting for. So what the I.R.A. is fighting for is right, is it, in the view of the alternative Government at Westminster? Therefore, the I.R.A. must be right." Secondly, when we say that a united Ireland is the ultimate objective and solution, this convinces the majority in Northern Ireland—because it is in a state of nervousness and fear, just as is the minority—that what it has always stood out against and believed to be the overriding political issue in Northern Ireland is to be settled over its head in favour of the minority.
  If it is dangerous—and we know it is—as well as tragic for a minority to live in fear and nervousness, then it is a damned sight more dangerous for a majority to become frightened and nervous. The bloodshed that can arise from that can be a much more serious thing. We need to be a little careful how we trifle with the nervousness of the majority. We hear so much today about political solutions and compromises: after all, every political solution is a compromise. As an hon. Member opposite said earlier in an intervention, the whole thing is a question of the Border. The overriding issue in Northern Ireland is the question whether the Union should be maintained or destroyed.
  Mr. Foley rose—
  Mr. Maude: We cannot compromise between those two things. I know perfectly well that there is the question of

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  the discrimination and civil rights and so on, and we know equally that attempts have been made and will go on being made to deal with that. But what determines how people vote in Ireland—and it will go on determining it in present circumstances—is whether they believe that the Union should be preserved or destroyed.
  Mr. Foley: The hon. Gentleman is being very dogmatic about attitudes on this side of the House over a united Ireland and he is also being dogmatic about the predominant issue in the minds of the minority North of the Border. I would like to know from where he got his information, because if he talks with any of the leaders of the Opposition party in the North they will tell him clearly that the dominant problem is the failure of the Stormont Government and this Government to give the minority any effective participation.
  Mr. Maude: I am sorry that I gave way because that was a long intervention and I am trying to be brief. I will come to the question how the Opposition party can help in a moment. I was not talking solely about the minority; what I said was that what determines how people vote in Northern Ireland is the question of the maintenance or destruction of the Union. For the overwhelming majority this is true and it is futile to deny it. Anyone who tries to do so will not come within a mile of solving the problem.
  If this is the overriding political issue—and everyone who has been there knows that it is—there can be no compromise political solution between the maintenance or destruction of the Union. If there can be no compromise there, then there can be no compromise with the I.R.A. In any case there cannot be a compromise between someone who says, "I am going to shoot you" and someone who says, "You must not shoot me." Political solutions will come after the I.R.A. has been destroyed, and it cannot be a political solution arrived at just by saying now, at the height of the bloodshed and the nervousness, that the Union is to be destroyed. That is the one thing that utterly condemns any political solution to futility before it is begun.
  What we have to do is to start discussions now on how the communities
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  are to live together without violence, without talking in terms of a united Ireland for the foreseeable future. The only way we can do this will be if the Opposition party is prepared to co-operate and talk with the Stormont Government. If we are to be bogged down in a situation in which one side says, "We will not talk because of internment" and the other side says, "We have to go on with internment whether or not you talk", we shall not get anywhere. I have one suggestion to make to the Opposition leaders. The maintenance of internment is in the view of the Governments of Stormont and Westminster, and, I believe, in the view of the overwhelming majority of people in this country, essential for the saving of lives and, in particular, the lives of British soldiers as well as of innocent civilians.
  The ending of internment may be essential for the sake of the theory of constitutional law, it may be that it will save some people a great deal of inconvenience and certain mild physical ill-treatment in terms of the Compton Report, but there cannot be any comparison between the urgent need to save lives and prevent bloodshed and the need to get a political dialogue going again while we are deciding how soon and how quickly we can get rid of internment.
  There must be talk about this now, and it must be talk not on the basis of frightening the majority into believing that what they regard as the main plank of their political platform is to be pulled from underneath them, but on the basis of give and take on the things on which compromise is possible. If we are to talk airily about compromise on the things in which compromise is not possible, we shall never get a solution at all.
  I therefore regret that the Labour Party and the Leader of the Labour Party have come down on the side of a united Ireland. I agree with certain of my hon. Friends that this has dangers. The Home Secretary had the rights of it this afternoon when he was feeling his way bit by bit, making appeal after appeal for co-operation in the things that can be done. That is the most that at this present moment we can hope for—that, and a united determination to destroy the gunmen, and to do it quickly and by whatever means.
  6.52 p.m.
  Mr. Sydney Bidwell: I confess that before I visited Long Kesh internment camp at the beginning of last month as one of an all-party delegation I did not have any deep or lasting feeling for the Ireland problem. I had the distant view that most Britishers have, and which has been at least suggested on a number of occasions—and this debate may again be one—that the best thing we could do was to let the Irish stew in their own juice.
  But the new ingredient in the thinking of the British working people is that British troops are employed there carrying out a mission that they themselves would not wish. It is wrong to say that the natural sympathy of the British people as a whole is simply with the troops. The natural feeling of British people, since currently the Westminster Tory Government are not exactly in vogue, is to be impressed about the rôle the troops are asked to play there and to be considerably suspicious of the Stormont-Ulster-Tory réegime.
  It was suggested by the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maude) though very tentatively, that the present situation in Northern Ireland might be compared with the Cyprus experience. I visited Cyprus, though only for a few days. I went into the problems. I heard of past battles. I found that very many armed men have the job of making sure that the place does not go up in smoke. One sought some means that would bring the Turkish and Greek communities together. Until those means are found, there is very little possibility of a drawing together in political, military or economic terms.
  That, as I understand it, is not the situation now prevailing in Northern Ireland, yet there are all the symptoms of excessive polarisation which seem to indicate that the situation is nearly as hopeless as that in Cyprus.
  I suppose that it was the military experience of the hon. and gallant Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Lieut.-Colonel Colin Mitchell)—"Mad Mitch" as he was commonly known, though I sincerely hope that he will not be offended by my saying so—that led him to say that those held at Long Kesh and in the Crumlin Road Prison were not having
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  such a bad deal. Such a reaction may not be surprising from one who was able to compare Long Kesh with prisoner-ofwar camps that he had seen in various parts of the world.
  My reaction was totally different. The utter depression caused by the sight of men in the United Kingdom being put into a place like Long Kesh brought tears to my eyes, and I am nct ashamed to confess it, because for me it was a case of, "There but for the grace of God go I". I speak particularly of the internment camp, because in the Crumlin Road Prison the men ganged up against our deputation. They would not see us. We saw only representatives of the detainees and internees. Our visit to Long Kesh was a different story, and I do not believe that that story has yet been adequately told.
  At Long Kesh we had a demonstration, not of the military kind as has been suggested elsewhere but more a trade union demonstration fiercely protesting against internment. The cry was: "We demand unconditional release". I was able to speak to several of the internees individually, and they asked me the simple question: "Do we belong here?" I asked myself that question over and over again. When hon. Members opposite say, as they have done on occasion, of these internees: "All these are I.R.A. men, these are all terrorists, hellbent on wrecking what is left of civilisation in Northern Ireland", I can tell them from my own experience that that is a blatant lie. I also know from my political background that if I were now in my Socialist youth and in Northern Ireland, in the present polarised and repressive situation I would be driven step by step into the hands of the I.R.A., into the camp of terrorism. That seems to be exactly what is happening in Northern Ireland at present, and the British people should awaken to the realities of what is taking place.
  I had a conversation with some of the staff at Stormont. I had not seen the place before. It reminded me of the palatial establishments of the Raj in British India. It was a miserable caricature of this place. What spoke volumes was what I was told by ordinary people who did not know that I was a British Member of Parliament. One member of the staff at Stormont said that there

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  would be no solution of the Northern Ireland problem until the Border was closed and all the Roman Catholics were given passports and sent south.
  I have had some experience of the race relations problem in this country, and I could not help comparing what I have sometimes met here with what is happening there. I was told about the polarisation which exists in the slum areas of Belfast. In Protestant areas, isolated Catholic families have had notes stuck through their letter boxes telling them to get out, while in predominantly Catholic areas Protestant families have similarly been told to get out. The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) has suggested that immigrant families should be paid £2,000 to return to their countries of origin. I could not help fitting that idea into the story told me by this "ordinary man", to use the phraseology of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West.
  I recollect, too, the conversation that I had with the wife of an Ulster Unionist Member of this Assembly. She was positively spitting venom when talking about Catholic women. I have not had a religious upbringing. To some extent I am very much opposed to the bigoted aspect of what I consider the Roman Catholic religion to be about, but I can appreciate the problems of the Catholics in Northern Ireland, and it seems to me that they are not capable of solution by military means.
  I was disappointed, when the House was recalled during September, to find that the official Opposition did not intend to divide the House on an issue which was causing great anxiety to the nation as a whole. Some of us divided the House because we considered the policy of internment to be so repugnant that we had to do something to demonstrate how we felt.
  A policy of violence was being pursued in Northern Ireland before internment was introduced, but the violence has escalated since then, and I have asked myself a thousand times what my reaction would have been if, because I was known to have been at a civil rights meeting, or to have been drinking in the company of someone who was known to be, or thought to be, or had the intention of
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  becoming, a member of the I.R.A., quite suddenly one morning, while I was in bed a rest beside my wife, I was arrested and taken away? That is a form of violence which equals any other kind of violence now going on in Ireland.
  Mr. James Kilfedder: The hon. Gentleman persists in saying that no member of the I.R.A. is in Long Kesh. Is he aware that the I.R.A. have said that some of its officers are interned there? The hon. Gentleman seems to think that the I.R.A. is a phenomenon of 50 years of Unionist rule in Northern Ireland. Would he consider the history of the Irish Republic, which shows that, since 1922, the I.R.A. has murdered Irish Republican Ministers, that members of the I.R.A. were interned during the war, that some were court martialled and executed when De Valera was in power, and that Mr. Lynch threatened to introduce internment only a year ago?
  Mr. Bidwell: I cannot now go into the history of Ireland, but I understand that there is, first, the old guard of the I.R.A. and, second, those who are much more effective, namely the Provisionals. I do not know how one discovers who is a member of the I.R.A. Does he carry a card. Is there a simplified stratum of membership of the I.R.A.? Is there a second, third or fourth remove? According to the Sunday Times and other newspapers, there is a new kind of I.R.A. known as the Provisionals.
  I think that we have to take the situation in Northern Ireland out of the hands of Irish men altogether, whether they are Ulster Unionists who dislike being labelled Irish, or whether they are Southern Irish. This is essentially a matter for the United Kingdom. People here are fed up with the situation and are looking for a solution. We cannot wash our hands of the problem. There is no question of dragging the majority of the people of Northern Ireland kicking and struggling into an artificial unification of Ireland. Everybody knows that. That is not the urgent problem of the hour.
  In a long wide-ranging speech, delivered with an elder statesmanlike attitude, my right hon. Friend put forward proposals which would be fine if he were Prime Minister and he could put his proposals into effect step by step.

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  But he cannot do that, and he is therefore in danger of the Government picking up one or two strands of the considerable array of ideas which he put forward. There have been exchanges about what my right hon. Friend meant when he referred to internment. I am not quite sure what he meant, because what we are in danger of doing is saying that we are opposed to internment as long as it does not let anybody out. But internees have been let out, as have some people who have been branded as terrorists, gunmen, and so on. It is therefore supposed that some gunmen and terrorists have been let out, but we know that that is not the case.
  I want to underscore the characteristics of internment. It does not require any tremendous depth of suspicion to get somebody interned. The internment forms supplied to some of us who went to Long Kesh do not require the man to be thought to have been engaging in terrorist activities, but merely that he is thinking about them, or belongs to some kind of association in which, according to the authorities, he might be engaged in such activities.
  That is not good enough. The point is not to deliver cake when bread is required by the people of Northern Ireland, but to put forward immediate measures to de-escalate the violence and to pay careful heed to the rights of the minority in Northern Ireland who are spelling out the conditions under which such measures could be brought to fruition. I do not pretend to be an expert on the Irish situation simply because I went to Northern Ireland and to Long Kesh internment camp, but that was the deep and lasting impression which I gained.
  My feeling, the feeling of the British trade union and Labour movement, and the feeling developing in the Parliamentary Labour Party is that this Government, and perhaps even more the Ulster Government, have been incompetent and wooden-headed in dealing with the situation. The Home Secretary said that he accepted the 1969 measures. If I recollect correctly, parts of the 1969 measures were designed to deal with internment, but only a handful of people were interned. Now there is massive internment, with the Ulster Government
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  saying that they are about to get the situation in hand. When one reads of whole blocks of flats being raided and every male living therein being interrogated, when one hears of dustbin lids being rattled to inform members of the I.R.A. and their sympathisers what is happening, one can understand the degree of polarisation that is taking place.
  After my visit to Long Kesh and after speaking to the internees there and trying to get the size of it—obviously with certain limitations—I invited a couple of people there to write to me. I passed these two letters on to the Home Secretary, and almost at the same time a letter was on its way to me from Ivan Barr, the chairman of the Civil Rights Movement, setting out his whole political history.
  Peculiarly enough, when I saw him he did not complain of interrogation or of having had a hood put over his head or having been threatened with being thrown out of a helicopter, as some of the internees told me was the case. He was complaining of lack of interrogation, of being stuck in Long Kesh when he had a well-known and lifelong pacifist position. As he explained in his letter to me, he was well known to the police authorities as having, at certain risk to himself, prevented violence and physical disorder at meetings in the past.
  The other lad also told me volumes, particularly when I related it to the Compton Report, which this House had to consider. That Report found that physical ill-treatment had taken place. In that debate, in which I was not able to take part, the word "cruelty" somehow or other got left out. One will find in the interrogation notes printed in the Compton Report that cruelty and torture are coupled together.
  While there might be a wide division between physical ill-treatment and torture—at least they were not plucking out their toenails—[HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."]—one has to relate it to the aspects of cruelty itself. What I said was that obviously this kind of activity would go on and that there would be obsessive fringe activity.
  Everyone has noticed the tendency of hon. and gallant Members opposite who have served in the Armed Services to say that every soldier is the Archangel Gabriel. We know that that is not one

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  of the facts of life. We know that the British police force is, by and large, the best in the world, but we also know that there are such people as a few officers who have served in the Leeds area. We take this with a pinch of salt, as do the British people as a whole.
  I will read, in conclusion, this passage from the letter from Mr. K. A. Hart, an epileptic who, so far as I know, is still in the Long Kesh camp. I have written to him asking whether this is the case. He says that, when he was picked up in that period in August,
  "I complained about too much exercise. The reply I received was, 'These are not meant as exercises, son. They are positions of extreme discomfort.'"
  This man had a record of epilepsy and of course I have passed that on to the Home Secretary. I assume that steps are being taken to see that he is having proper medical treatment, even if he has not yet been let out of Long Kesh, as many have.
  The political conclusions to be drawn, I believe, are that the advent of a Tory Government here in June 1970 goes hand in hand with a deterioration in the situation—[HON. MEMBERS: "Scandalous!"] It cannot be pulled back. There can only be restitution of a bipartisan policy with a full recognition of how disastrous an internment policy has been. When one denounces violence all over a wide front, as it has been denounced, it has to be seen as a total renunciation of violence, which includes also the policy of internment and violent activity which might be carried out by the opponents of the minority as well.
  7.15 p.m.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I am sure that the hon. Member for Southall (Mr. Bidwell) will not have anything against me if I do not follow him and seek to answer him. But I must say just one thing. My views on internment, which I put on the last occasion when I addressed this honourable House, remain the same. But tonight, as the hon. Member spent so much time on internment, one would think that that was the root cause of our problems in Northern Ireland. I am sure that if he came to the hospital wards where I have gone, and if he looked on the mangled bodies and heards the cries of orphans and those who have lost their loved ones, he, too, would have tears in his eyes for them.
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  I feel that we should get this matter in its true perspective. I made known my views on internment in my last speech. I understand that I spoke too long. I do not want to speak too long tonight, so I will not follow the hon. Member, apart from that one comment.
  The leader of the Ulster Unionists, the hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Chichester-Clark) saw fit to pass some strictures on my position. I am sorry that I have to digress now and say a few things to him. He thought that he was scoring, I suppose, a cheap debating point by saying that I was not in the House because I had been in a fog. May I remind hon. Members that that fog brought tragedy to a number of people on the M1 today?
  The hon. Member's argument is the type of arrogance that we who oppose the Unionist Party in Northern Ireland have had to stick from time to time. It is the type of arrogance which would tread upon those who would dare to raise their voices against the Establishment—whether those voices be the voices of Protestants or of Roman Catholics. That needs to be said, and it needs to be said in this House.
  What is more, the hon. Member implied that he would have given me notice, if I had been in the House, that he intended to pass these remarks against me. When I made my maiden speech in this House, he passed remarks about me which, if read carefully in HANSARD, can be seen as an attempt to imply the same thing.
  When the hon. Gentleman was attacking the hon. Lady the Member for Mid-Ulster (Miss Devlin) who was in prison, the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) asked whether he had given notice to the hon. Lady. He tried then to imply that he had given notice to me about the attack which he made upon me on that occasion. Then he swings his arms and says, "This is the type of thing we would expect from the hon. Member." This is the type of thing we can expect from you, Sir, and the type of people you have misrepresented down through the years—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. E. L. Mallalieu): Order. The hon. Member must not address me like that, please.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I apologise, Mr. Deputy Speaker; I was not addressing you: I was addressing the hon. Member for Londonderry—
  Mr. Chichester-Clark rose—
  Rev. Ian Paisley: No, I am not finished with you yet, Sir. I regret to have to waste valuable time dealing with this matter, but it was the hon. Member for Londonderry who said that some of his hon. Friends had got here before me. I disagree, for the hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. Maginnis), the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) and the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Mr. Pounder) managed to get out of the fog as I did, but they travelled in the same taxi to the House.
  Mr. Stratton Mills rose—
  Mr. Chichester-Clark rose—
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I will not give way.
  Mr. Simon Mahon: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am sorry to introduce a note of levity, but is this a private fight or can anyone join in? [Laughter.]
  Rev. Ian Paisley: The hon. Member for Londonderry attacked me. I have answered him.
  Mr. Chichester-Clark rose—
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I will not give way. I want to come to the important part of my speech.
  The kernel of the speech made in the House by the Leader of the Opposition on Thursday was that the solution to the problem of Northern Ireland lay in a united Ireland. This is also the objective of the Irish Republican Army—[Interruption.]—because it, too, wants a united Ireland. This cannot be denied. I accept that there are differences, but the objective, the goal, in each case is a united Ireland.
  This would be totally unacceptable to the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland. Even the Prime Minister of Southern Ireland, the Cardinal of Armagh and the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) have on many occasions said that it would not be the intention of those who sought a united Ireland to
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  coerce the Protestants in the North into a united Ireland situation. However, if this matter were put to the people of Northern Ireland now, they would give an overwhelming answer of "No" to the suggestion that the way to solve the problems of Northern Ireland would be in the direction of a united Ireland.
  At the time of the Downing Street agreement we were told that the Border was not an issue. When the Leader of the Opposition came to Northern Ireland recently he said the matter had been dealt with by legislation in 1920 and it was clear all along that the solution did not lie in terms of a united Ireland.
  Hon. Members understand the effect of the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, in which he said that there should be a working within 15 years towards a united Ireland. I believe that no solution, either one thought out in this House or agreed to by the present Government of Northern Ireland, could be regarded as the answer because the Government of Northern Ireland are totally unrepresentative of the people. The present Prime Minister of Northern Ireland fought an election against Lord O'Neill. He was an anti-O'Neill candidate. He is now leading a parliamentary party having got to power through the leadership of Lord O'Neill. We must face the fact that Mr. Faulkner is not representative of the people of Northern Ireland.
  In terms of a united Ireland, no settlement thought out here or agreed to by Mr. Faulkner's Government would be acceptable to the people of Northern Ireland. I go further and say that the only solution to the serious condition of things in that country is through an agreement reached in Northern Ireland by the people of Northern Ireland and by the elected representatives of those people. That must take place.
  How, one may ask, can it take place? It certainly cannot take place now because certain people—I refer specifically to the Unionist Party—do not represent their constituents. Indeed, one of them has been rejected by his own constituency party, yet he has been put into the Government of Northern Ireland. There should be an immediate General Election there, and the people of Northern Ireland should have a say as to who represent them.

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  I believe that if there were a General Election in Northern Ireland now there would be a change of circumstances and that the leadership elected by the people would be prepared to get down to the business of solving the problems of Northern Ireland, and, whether or not one likes it, only the people of Northern Ireland can solve them.
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon rose—
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I am afraid I cannot give way to the hon. Gentleman. Having refused to give way to several hon. Members on this side of the House, I would be kicked up and down Northern Ireland if I now gave way to him. In any event, I am anxious to keep to the time limit that I have set for my speech.
  It is imperative that the elected representatives of the people get together as quickly as they possibly can because the people of Northern Ireland need something to be done for them immediately in this terrible situation.
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: What?
  Rev. Ian Paisley: First, something must be done about the tragedy of unemployment. We have thousands of men out of work. There needs to be a massive injection of finance to deliver the people from the plight of unemployment, which demoralises the individual and creates a situation in which it is impossible to have peace, especially in a society in which unemployment is rising, as it is in Northern Ireland now. [Interruption.] It has been brought about by the failure of the Stormont Government to grapple with the problem of unemployment.
  I represent 30,000 Roman Catholic people in my constituency, and not one of them can say that I have not represented them in the way they should have been represented. [Interruption.] I have sheaves of letters from Roman Catholic people in my constituency thanking me for at last being a representative of them to whom they can come and discuss matters, unlike their previous Unionist representatives who on many occasions slammed the 'phone down on them when they tried to call up to ask a question.
  I say to the Roman Catholic people of Northern Ireland that there can be no solution to the problems of our country by supporting the gunman. The gunman is bound to fail. But, even if he were
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  to defeat the Royal Ulster Constabulary and even if this House in Westminster were to be frustrated, lose patience and withdraw the troops, that would not lead to peace in Northern Ireland. It would lead to a sad state of affairs—
  Mr. Simon Mahon rose—
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I regret that I cannot give way. I intend to resume my seat within seconds.
  The only solution lies in there being above all a desire on all sides for peace. The Roman Catholic population must realise that the gunman cannot bring peace. To support the gunman is to support a policy of folly which can lead only to bloodshed, anarchy and murder and Ulster mourning her dead. When they realise that, when there is a motivation on all sides that peace must prevail, and when both communities have that overriding motivation, that will conquer every other difference, and then the communities can work under the present constitution in Northern Ireland for the peace and prosperity of the whole community.
  If the Roman Catholic population can persuade the Protestant population that the best thing for them is a united Ireland, let them use their powers of persuasion. If the Protestants can persuade the Roman Catholics that the best way for them to make Ulster a prosperous place, let them do so. The man living in the Shankill Road and the man living in the Falls Road are human beings with the same aspirations, the same desires to bring bring up their children, to get work to support his children, to be properly housed and to enjoy the amenities that all ought to have. Those two individuals represent the two classes in our society. If both populations think that the only way is that we should work for peace under the present constitution, that will be the beginning of better days for Northern Ireland.
  There are other matters that could be dealt with. All of us have strong convictions, and no one has stronger convictions than I have. But the only hope for the people of Northern Ireland is that it can work under the present constitution. Why do I say that? It is because at present the majority of people want that constitution to remain.
  Finally, if the people of the Republic want to show to the Protestants of the

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  North of Ireland their genuine desire to include them in an all-Ireland republic, let them deal with their own constitution, for that constitution is sectarian, not only in its fruits but at its very roots, and that would have to be dealt with. If they did that, it would show the Protestants that they really meant business and were prepared to show to their Protestant fellow-countrymen that they meant business in regard to final Irish unity.
  Someone has said that people in Ulster do not think of themselves as Irish. People in Ulster have always called themselves Ulstermen, and they are proud to belong to the North of Ireland. But they are also proud of their British citizenship as members of the United Kingdom. Let no one say that Ulstermen want to repudiate the fact that they live on the island of Ireland. We live on that island and we are proud of Northern Ireland; we have nothing to be ashamed of as citizens of Northern Ireland.
  7.33 p.m.
  Mr. Gerard Fitt: I rise in trepidation that I may find myself in agreement with the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley). I agree with him on one point, and that is the appalling unemployment figures we now have in Northern Ireland—an issue which has been debated in the House many times—although it must continually be stressed that the purpose of this debate is to try to devise some ways and means of finding a political solution to the present difficulties which beset not only Northern Ireland but the whole island of Ireland, and the rest of the United Kingdom.
  In opening the debate my right hon. Friend the leader of the Opposition made a very courageous departure from previously accepted policies of Leaders of the Opposition and ex-Prime Ministers. He stated that it must now be freely recognised and clearly identified that the problem in the island of Ireland which was brought about by partition can be solved in the ultimate to the advantage of all the people of Ireland only by recognising that a mistake was made in 1920 by the unjust partition of Ireland. That is the full context of what my right hon. Friend was trying to say.
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  Is there any Member, on whatever side of the House, who can say—I have denied this before and deny it now—that partition has been a success anywhere in the world where it has been tried? One has only to look at the state of the world today in those partitioned countries—partitioned mostly by this House—to see the distress that has been brought to those forced to live in those lands. From now on, I believe that it will be respectable in the United Kingdom and tolerated in the House if one says that one believes that the only peaceful solution which can bring peace to Ireland is the ultimate re-unification of that country.
  I have lived in Northern Ireland and I believe—this has been recognised by many hon. Members, particularly by my hon. Friends—that the 1920 Act was a disastrous failure. For the first time in European history we have the setting up of a Parliament and a people where there could be only majority-minority politics. On the day that the 1920 Government of Ireland came into power, it meant that from then on we should have a permanent Unionist majority and Government in Northern Ireland; on the other hand, it meant that we should have a permanently frustrated, oppressed, repressed minority in Northern Ireland. In those circumstances how can anyone now claim that they are surprised, after 50 years, that the system has broken down?
  Now that the advance has been made by my right hon. Friend to state clearly that the ultimate ideal must be the unification of Ireland, not only geographically but politically, and that the unification of the people in Ireland must be paramount, I believe that we can set our sights in this direction and try to bring about the re-unification of Ireland by non-violent methods.
  I state clearly and unequivocally that I have never in my political life supported violence towards the achievement of political ends in Ireland. I believe that the violence now taking place in the streets of my city, Belfast, will only hinder the day when Ireland will be united. I appeal to all those who believe as fervently and sincerely as I do in the ultimate re-unification of the country to desist from further violence in adopting the methods they are now adopting. They can only put off the day that I hope and want to live to see.

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  My right hon. Friend made another very important point. He suggested that security should be taken out of the hands of the Northern Ireland Government and that the responsibility should be placed with this House. I believe that that suggestion should be taken up by the Government immediately.
  Mr. Kilfedder: Would the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Fitt: No. This suggestion should be taken up by the Government immediately, because the question of the security of Northern Ireland affects not only Northern Ireland but the whole of the United Kingdom. If the trouble in Northern Ireland is allowed to continue unabated, day by day, there can be absolutely no doubt that people in other parts of the United Kingdom, Liverpool and Glasgow particularly, and in London, in the Irish communities throughout these islands, will find themselves embroiled in turmoil. So the security of Northern Ireland should be a matter for the House because it involves the security of the United Kingdom.
  When I speak of security, I do not mean only the British Army, as it is in Northern Ireland at present. Security, to me, means internment, the interrogation methods used, and the way the Compton Report has highlighted what happened to people interned by the so-called security forces.
  In his speech my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said:
  "No deprivation of personal liberty, in a situation where we may not be able to move to the absolute rule of law, should be in the hands of any individual, even be he a Minister."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th November, 1971; Vol. 826, c. 1589.]
  For 20 years in Northern Ireland we have had a Minister for Home Affairs who has had complete and absolute power in deciding whether any individual should be interned. That power has been used in the past with the intention of silencing the political opponents of Unionism. Anyone who had the temerity to voice their opposition to the Unionist Party and its absolute control of affairs in Northern Ireland was liable to find himself behind prison bars or in an internment camp. There can be no doubt that that is happening today. That is why I say that the question of security is all-
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  important and should be treated as such by this Government.
  Arising out of the debate, the British Government, the Home Secretary and, indeed, the Prime Minister, should say to the Northern Ireland authorities that they want to see the evidence which was placed at the disposal of the Minister for Home Affairs before he signed the detention and internment orders. I have sufficient respect for this House to believe that its standards would be much higher than those in Northern Ireland at present. I understand that in the island of Britain it is accepted that one can be a vehement opponent of any political doctrine without rendering oneself liable to imprisonment or unjustified detention.
  In making that request to the Prime Minister or the Home Secretary, I am confident enough to state that if all the papers which were before the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland—acting in his capacity as Minister for Home Affairs—were vetted by some impartial tribunal, an impartial Minister or some Cabinet tribunal, many of those who are behind bars would be released in the shortest possible time.
  I shall not detain the House by discussing again the Compton Report. I recognise that certain newspapers may have tried to whitewash what was found by Compton, but even Compton, and those who were assisting him, were repelled. I believed, by the methods they found in use.
  I am delighted to see, in the words of the Motion, that the Opposition Front Bench, supported by every hon. Member on this side of the House, now says quite clearly, in a language which cannot be misunderstood, that that type of interrogation should not be used in a civilised country. There is complete unanimity on that point. The words of the Motion condemn internment.
  In speaking about internment, my right hon. Friend did not please me in everything that he said. Indeed, he was rather acting as a contortionist when he discussed this subject. The Government may say that the House will take some solace from the fact that my right hon. Friend did not demand the immediate end of internment. But one has to study closely my right hon. Friend's remarks. It can clearly be seen that he said that since internment was introduced on 9th

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  August, nothing could ever be the same again in Northern Ireland.
  That single act brought about by the Northern Ireland Government—I wonder whether it was supported by the British Government—has completely alienated 40 per cent. of the community in Northern Ireland. They have withdrawn their con- sent to be governed any longer by a Unionist Government.
  As a representative of West Belfast and and as a leader of the Social Democratic and Labour Party, I make it clear that we shall accept no invitation from the Unionist Prime Minister at Stormont to engage in further talks with him and so to perpetuate the Unionist domination of Northern Ireland. We say that the system has failed and failed lamentably over 50 years and no attempt can be made now to prop up a discredited and corrupt régime such as we have had to call a Government in Northern Ireland.
  The responsibility now rests firmly and squarely on Westminster. Any political actions or moves that must be taken must be taken from this House because, whilst internment lasts, whilst many of my constituents find themselves behind bars, there is no possibility of a solution. I heard today that another 45 men were arrested last night and that 34 of them were on the wanted list. How many men are on the wanted list in Northern Ireland? Is every Northern Ireland man who is opposed to Unionism on the wanted list of the Unionist Government and a candidate for internment? That is what it seems to be. This is all in line with a military solution.
  I was bitterly disappointed that my right hon. Friend did not come out more strongly against internment and that he seemed to accept that there could be a military solution. [Interruption.] Perhaps I may amend that. He suggested that until there was a military solution there could be no political solution. I say to him in his absence and to the Government that there cannot be any military solution to the problem which now besets Northern Ireland. [Interruption.] Perhaps I took up my right hon. Friend's remarks wrongly. If I have done so, I certainly apologise and I am delighted to have the opportunity to do so. I believe that what he was trying to say was that military activity must be continued but at the same
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  time political discussions must take place. I accept that. But what have we heard today?
  An hon. Member opposite said that it is scandalous to say that there has been a deterioration in the political situation in Northern Ireland since the present British Government took office. Whether it is scandalous or not, it is true. Hundreds of people have died since June, 1970. Many innocent people were shot by the British Army—young boys, innocent women, a Catholic priest. Who killed him? The British Army. Many others were killed by the I.R.A. and I condemn that from this House. But the fact remains that many people have been killed by the activities of the British Army since the election of this Government in 1970. I do not think that there can be any contradiction of that fact.
  Can we offer any solution that will stop the killings and ease the distress and despair that is at present prevalent in my constituency and throughout Northern Ireland? My right hon. Friend spoke of a long-term solution, 15 years from now, that there may be a united Ireland. I accept that. But what we desperately need at this moment, not in 15 years but now, is some new initiative to prevent further loss of life in Northern Ireland.
  I have some suggestions. Perhaps they will not be acceptable on the benches opposite. Indeed, I recognise that I may not have the full support of many of my hon. Friends. I recognise that it takes some courage to condemn some of the activities of the British Army in Northern Ireland. I recognise that every country has a right to be proud of its army. But that will not deny me the right to say what I have seen in my constituency. I have seen many members of the British Army acting in a very un-British way. I would be less than honest if I did not come to this House and say so.
  One has only to read the newspapers daily throughout Northern Ireland to see that in the last 48 hours a rubber bullet was fired deliberately into the face of a young girl. Another woman opened her window to see what was happening when the Army raided the area at 4 a.m. Again a rubber bullet was deliberately fired and she is blind for life. Many innocent people have suffered by the

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  actions of the British Army. What is causing the complete polarisation and alienation of the Catholic community? I make it clear that I am not speaking for the Catholic community. I sit on this side of the House because I am a Socialist, not because I am a Catholic. Many innocent Protestant people have also suffered at the hands of the British military.
  I suggest that there should not be such a heavy concentration of British Army vehicles and British personnel in anti-Unionist areas throughout Northern Ireland, because it appears by their presence there that they have identified every Catholic area, every anti-Unionist area, and all the people who live in them, as being enemies of Britain, potential murderers and bombers. This is patently not so because thousands of people living in those areas—including West Belfast, which the hon. Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder) had the honour to represent on one occasion for a very short period—
  Mr. Kilfedder rose—
  Mr. Fitt: —do not, as the hon. Gentleman knows, want to be involved in any altercation with the British military forces but are forced into that situation by the activity of the British Army. There is one positive solution—take away the heavy concentration that is at present so clearly to be seen in those areas.
  In dealing with security we should take the Special Powers Act from Stormont to here, because I have no doubt that the vast majority of right hon. and hon. Members, be they Conservative, Liberal or Labour, would not tolerate for a second the Act as it exists in Northern Ireland being on the Statute book here. It would be completely and bitterly rejected. Surely what is good for England, Scotland and Wales must also be good for Northern Ireland, and we should not allow draconian legislation to govern the lives and safety of the people of Northern Ireland when it would not be acceptable here.
  I come now to the question of the civil disobedience campaign. We in the civil rights movement, accompanied by many other people of anti-Unionist political opinions, began the civil disobedience campaign with the intention of giving to thousands of people in Northern Ireland,
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  who so detest Unionism, some way of showing their detestation of that political regime. I recognise that, particularly on the benches opposite, the campaign is viewed with distaste and even horror. But hon. Members must recognise that in the situation in Northern Ireland it is sometimes necessary to depart from the strict bounds of legality when one has a bewildered and frightened people to look after and represent as their Member of Parliament.
  What was the Unionist Government's attitude to the civil disobedience campaign? Once people said, "We are not going to pay our rates and our rents. We are no longer going to finance a system which has oppressed us for so long", the Stormont Government immediately held an all-night sitting and brought into force one of the most draconian pieces of legislation ever to pass any House in these islands this century—the Payments of Debts Act. Many of my hon. Friends will have read it and of the terrible effects it is now having on defenceless people throughout Northern Ireland. That type of legislation would also not be tolerated for one second in this House by any party.
  The civil disobedience campaign will continue because it must, because if the generals and the military representatives like the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maude) and others—the ex-Army people—feel for one moment that they have won the military campaign and that there is a military solution, then all I can look forward to, along with my constituents, is another 20 or 30 years of oppression by Unionism That is just not on, because people in Northern Ireland will resist until they have brought about by their own efforts, possibly with the help of others—and I appeal to the trade unions and the Socialist movement in this country to help us in this fight—a society in Northern Ireland wherein there will be peace and justice for all.
  I ask the Prime Minister why it is that the Scarman Report has not been issued. Lord Justice Scarman was appointed to inquire into what happened in Northern Ireland when all the evidence pointed to the fact that the Unionist-Orange extremists had set about a murderous campaign throughout the Catholic communities in August, 1969. He has

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  held many sittings and all the evidence has been given to him. We heard that his report was to be published in the early summer, then in the middle summer, then in the early autumn, then in the late autumn this year. Is it a fact that the British Government have entered into a conspiracy with the Northern Ireland Government to prevent that report being made available? I believe the report should be made available to us as soon as possible.
  In Northern Ireland, on whatever side of the political spectrum one may happen to be, from time to time one finds oneself at variance with the broadcasting media on the reporting of affairs in Northern Ireland. But I want to pay a personal tribute to Mr. David Chipp, of the Press Association, and to those directors of the B.B.C. who have resisted the pressures being exerted by the Government and their supporters not to report accurately, and indeed sometimes to report inaccurately, what has been happening. We have been told that what they should apply is patriotic censorship. That to me is telling lies. That is exactly what it means. That is what it means during wartime, when one tells one's own side of the story and not the facts. I make an appeal to the Press and television of this country to go on reporting Northern Ireland, even when they may not agree with the people involved on many occasions. I appeal to them to keep on doing so because the British people want to know and should know what is happening in Northern Ireland in the name of democracy.
  The long-term proposals put forward by my right hon. Friend are, I believe, worthy of consideration, but he did make some mistakes. I understand that he said on television that possibly people could find 100 faults. He was a little too pessimisitc. I found only 98. One of them was to the effect that if we did arrive at a solution whereby Ireland would be in process of reunification then, for every single incident, the day of reunification would be put off for a month. He prefaced his remarks by saying that he was not sure whether this would work. One only has to imagine what would happen if a situation arose in which the supporters of the hon. Member for Antrim, North deferred indefinitely the final reunification of Ireland.
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  He made the rather outlandish suggestion that we would have to have in Ireland a permanent military base or establishment such as Aldershot or Catterick in this country. He thought that this would be very useful in easing the unemployment situation. I hope that other ways and means can be found to tackle the disastrous unemployment situation in Northern Ireland. I hope that it will be unnecessary to have a military establishment there because the very presence of a military establishment in Ireland would indicate that a forced solution had been arrived at.
  Perhaps I shall be called upon to pass comment or take action on whether Ireland should apply for re-entry into the Commonwealth. Will there be a Commonwealth in 15 years' time? Is there a Commonwealth today? One thing of which we can be certain is, whether or not there is a Commonwealth, there will be the island of Ireland. If we approach the problem as we see it today, we should take immediate steps to de-escalate the situation. We shall see that the British Army is not concentrated in anti-Unionist areas and that any arms, legal or illegal, which are at present in the hands of Unionist extremists should be taken away from them by the forces of this Government.
  I thought I detected in the remarks of the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon the threat of a backlash. I think that is what he was trying to say. We have heard a lot of this backlash, and I do not wish to say anything which could in any way exacerbate feelings or bring about that backlash. But if it is known, as I believe it is known, that there are arms in the hands of Unionist extremists, they should be taken away from them.
  Before I left home this morning I had consultations with a number of men in the legal profession, and they told me of the concern which exists in their profession because of the activities of the Minister for Home Affairs and the police. Eminent members of the legal profession have defended people charged with having explosives and arms. The Crown prosecutor in the courts objects to every Catholic who is called to serve on the jury, so that on most of these juries there are 12 Protestants. When a case has been heard and the 12 Protestants have found a Catholic not guilty—this

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  has happened on numerous occasions—the man walks out of the court and is immediately arrested by the Special Branch and interned.
  So what price British justice? A man is found not guilty by the court and he is immediately arrested by the Special Branch and interned without trial and, indeed, without a charge. Is it any wonder that there is concern amongst the legal profession? Is it any wonder that there is concern amongst the minority population in Northern Ireland about what is happening under the code of internment and interrogation?
  I can remember when a number of people were involved in blowing up gas and water mains with the intention of upsetting Terence O'Neill's Government. The hon. Member for Surbiton (Mr. Nigel Fisher) will remember the occasion very well. One man was convicted and sentenced to 12 years' imprisonment. But many of his colleagues were found not guilty. Why were they not interned in exactly the same circumstances as those in which people are interned today? The answer is: they are supporters of the Unionist Government. One recognises that fact very clearly.
  That is another concrete suggestion I put forward to the Government—to inquire into the procedures which are now being used by the Special Branch to intern people after they have been found not guilty by the courts; to take the Army out of the anti-Unionist areas where they are over-concentrated, and let them go elsewhere in Northern Ireland where they will find something to their advantage—that is, if they want to find something to their advantage.
  At present there is no single issue which could de-escalate the situation. But a combination of steps could be taken. Again I agree with the hon. Member for Antrim, North. Some dramatic economic measures should be taken to help relieve the terrible unemployment that we have in Northern Ireland, where there are 48,000 unemployed—10·7 per cent. of the male population. The Royal Navy Yard is in danger of closing down. Some of the shop stewards in Northern Ireland would not support any Member on this side of the House. They would rather support the election of Unionist Members.
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  My right hon. Friend said that we should have inter-party talks between the Government and the Opposition. That is a matter for the Government and the Opposition in this House. But would those talks relate to the proposals put forward by my right hon. Friend, or would they be with the intention of trying to persuade abstentionist Members in Northern Ireland to have further talks and go back, like little timid children, to Stormont? If that is the reason for the talks in this House, it is a waste of time. But if the talks envisaged by my right hon. Friend are to have the intention of discussing the proposals put forward by my right hon. Friend, then I say: go ahead and have those talks, and whatever emerges from those talks may decide whether we, the abstentionist politicians in Northern Ireland, would be prepared to have further discussions.
  One of the issues which must be discussed at inter-party level in this House is the burning issue of internment. If a satisfactory solution can be arrived at on the question of internment between the Labour Party and the Conservative Party in this House whereby those detained without trial could be released, we shall have overcome the major obstacle which is preventing any fruitful discussion taking place.
  I say to the Government and to my hon. Friends on this side of the House: certainly engage in talks. I wish them success. If the talks are successful it will mean an end to internment in Northern Ireland. It will mean that the security problem will be taken away from Stormont and we shall be able to stop the interrogations and unjust internment. Arising from such decisions there is no doubt that we can then start taking our first timid steps along the road pointed out by my right hon. Friend last Thursday.
  In the course of his speech—I thought it a most important phrase—my right hon. Friend said:
  "If men of moderation have nothing to hope for, men of violence will have something to shoot for".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th November, 1971; Vol. 826, c. 1586.]
  I ask the House now, in the context of the discussions which have taken place and which may take place—give men of moderation in Ireland, North and South, something to hope for.
  8.10 p.m.
  Mr. Nigel Fisher: I did not agree with much that the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) said in his extremely long speech, but, on balance, I would rather listen to him than to the deafeningly noisy nonsense of the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley), who habitually comes into the Chamber an hour before he wants to speak and leaves it the moment he has spoken.
  Mr. Chichester-Clark: I am glad that my hon. Friend has mentioned that. It is a curious situation. The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) complains bitterly that he is not given notice of a speech which would be made in the debate, but on both occasions when I have attacked him in the House he has been present. On the other hand, the other side of the coin is that he can go on television and radio and attack me without notice—
  Mr. A. E. P. Duffy: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Has the hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Chichester-Clark) given the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) notice that he intended to make this personal attack on him?
  Mr. Fisher: Let us not go on with all this.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): Order. Perhaps we can leave the subject where it is for the moment.
  Mr. Fisher: It is not really my quarrel, and I am just begining a speech which, I hope, will not be too long.
  The hon. Members for Belfast, West and for Antrim, North agreed at least on one point—and I agree with them both about it—that is, the terrible unemployment in Northern Ireland today—about 10 per cent. of the working population. It is a grave situation. But they were less than fair to the Government, considering that the Home Secretary has announced a sum of £50 million to be spent in helping Northern Ireland, and especially its unemployment problem.
  I read in the Saturday supplement of The Times the other day that David Lloyd George's Irish policy between
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  December, 1920, and December, 1921, when the Irish Treaty was signed, was
  "to crush the murder gang, but whenever there is an opening for peace, take it".
  That must be our policy for Northern Ireland 50 years later—to beat the terrorists but to seize any chance of a political settlement that there may be.
  I am sure that that was the thought and the policy behind what I regarded as the courageous speech of the Leader of the Opposition last Thursday. In principle, therefore, I feel that we on this side of the House should welcome it and try to build upon it. After all, when all the hard liners and the extremists on both sides condemn an idea or a policy, it is always worth the while of moderate men to examine it with care. If the hon. Member for Antrim, North and the hon. Lady the Member for Mid-Ulster (Miss Devlin) unite to oppose something, it makes me feel that it must at least be worth looking at.
  I was glad that the Leader of the Opposition, at the outset of his speech, paid a generous tribute to the Governor of Northern Ireland. He referred to "the wisdom, grasp and understanding" of the Governor. I simply comment that, in my view Lord Grey's professional experience of not very dissimilar conditions in Guyana, which I remember well from my service in the old Colonial Office, has been somewhat under-used in Ulster. That is certainly not a complaint by him, and, no doubt, he would be rather embarrassed if he knew that I was saying it. It is simply an observation by me.
  The Daily Telegraph described the right hon. Gentleman's speech last Thursday as "Wilson in Wonderland" I agree that in some respects it was Utopian and unrealistic, but I thought the comment rather less than fair to the right hon. Gentleman. He seemed to me to be trying to maintain a bipartisan policy for Ulster, and I regard that as very important indeed.
  In an interview on his return from Ireland, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said that the fact that there was
  "fear, death and misery in Ulster should put the question above parties."
  I entirely agree with that. I agree also with his rejection of direct rule, United

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  Nations intervention and withdrawal of British troops. I agree with him that our first priority must be to beat the I.R.A. and—since it has been mentioned a great deal today—internment must continue, much as we all dislike it, until that has been achieved. That is what the Leader of the Opposition said, and even the right hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. George Thomson), who is skilful in these matters, could not possibly reconcile that line of argument from his right hon. Friend on Thursday with the terms of today's Motion and the sort of speeches which we hear from below the Gangway opposite in these debates. In fact, they are irreconcilable.
  Mr. Orme: If the hon. Gentleman looks, he will see that the name of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition heads the list of signatures to the Motion.
  Mr. Fisher: Yes, I saw that, and I was surprised, in view of its terms, though I am not at all surprised that the right hon. Gentleman is not here to vote for it tonight. [HON. MEMBERS: "Cheap."]
  We are at war with the I.R.A. If the terrorists want a united Ireland, their present policy of violence and death is totally counter-productive. No British Government will negotiate with gunmen, and there are a million Protestants in Ulster who will never join the South—or dream of it—at the behest of gunmen. The Government and people of the Republic should recognise that. Some of them do, of course; but what are the people of Ulster to think when they hear Mr. Neil Blaney, a former Minister of Agriculture in the Eire Government, calling on his Donegal constituents to support the Provisionals? "Give them shelter," he said the other day, "Give them aid, give them money, and anything that might be useful to them." What a message to send into Ulster.
  But once the Army has beaten the gunmen we should negotiate a generous political settlement. This is where, in my view, the importance of the right hon. Gentleman's speech last Thursday lies. At least it stimulates thought about a political settlement, and I am sorry that the Opposition's Motion today apparently rejects a bipartisan approach despite the Leader of the Opposition's attempt to pre-
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  serve one. It is an odd situation. I wish that some hon. Members opposite would forget the Irish vote in their constituencies and look at these matters in a wider context—[interruption.]—as a great problem to which England, Ulster and the Republic must together find a solution.
  We must first ensure that all the genuine grievances of the Catholic minority are redressed. We do not hear so much nowadays about civil rights because the genuine grievances have been or are being met.
  Mr. Frank McManus: Nonsense.
  Mr. Fisher: Of course they are. They should have been met 20, 30 or 40 years ago, and if they had been met gradually and tactfully by Lord Brookeborough we should not be in the mess we are in today. But it is no use living in the past. They are being met now, and hon. Members opposite including the hon. Lady the Member for Mid-Ulster, know that perfectly well.
  As the next step, we should consider the introduction of proportional representation in Ulster—not a P.R.-based government, which would not be majority rule, but a P.R.-based Parliament so as to give the minority greater representation at Stormont.
  Then, Mr. Faulkner's idea of functional committees should be implemented. He has suggested three new committees to consider major proposals of policy and to review the performance of the executive function of the Government. Out of four committees in all, the Opposition, I believe, would appoint the chairmen of two. That was a useful and constructive suggestion, but the S.D.L.P. has rejected it.
  The attitude of the S.D.L.P. throughout the whole trouble has been entirely negative. Yet it cannot possibly be in favour of the I.R.A. Why, then, do not members of the S.D.L.P. speak for the thousands of Catholics in Northern Ireland who simply want to live in peace and prosperity in their own Province? The number of people engaged in violence is very small. The number of people supporting violence, although distressingly large from a security point of view, is not very large in fact. It is by no means the whole of the Catholic population of Ulster.

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  Is there no one here who will speak for the moderate Catholics who hate violence and fear the I.R.A.? I thought that the hon. Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Lomas) went somewhere near doing so, but it is very seldom that we hear the moderate Catholics spoken for in this House.
  On my last visit to Ulster three weeks ago, I spent some time with a battalion of the Army. I was encouraged to hear the optimism of the Army of all ranks, not just the officers. They feel—or they felt then, three weeks ago, certainly—that they were winning. They told me that the information is at last coming in. Apropos the comments about internment, one of the reasons why it was coming in, they said, was internment. People would not go to a police post or an Army barracks to give information and they would not even give it over the telephone, but now that various men had been interned they feel it safe to talk. [An HON. MEMBER: "What an argument."] That is what the Servicemen told me, and they are the people who have to do the job. They tell me that they can now go to a particular house and pick up the arms or the ammunition or an I.R.A. man who is hiding there.
  This was the first time I have found the troops so confident of ultimate victory. They told me that they were beating the Ulster-based I.R.A. What they could not cope with were the I.R.A. men from the South who came over the Border, plant a couple of bombs, and then go back to the Republic or take the next boat to Liverpool. We cannot effectively police the Border.
  What the soldiers do not like—I have said this to my hon. Friend the Minister of State on another occasion, and I say it again now—are the television interviews. The ordinary private soldier or guardsman is not a P.R. expert and does not like having a microphone shoved under his nose and he does not like the apparently hostile questions which he is often asked. I thought that the Alan Hart interview with Mr. Faulkner was an appalling example of a hostile and hectoring attitude. Mr. Faulkner is a professional and well able to take care of himself, as he did on that occasion; but the soldiers are not professional P.R.
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  experts and they dislike being put on the defensive by B.B.C. reporters.
  The remedy for this is not censorship or anything like it, but it might be better not to film riot situations "live". In similar conditions in Los Angeles five or six years ago and in Amsterdam, too, the television people stopped filming riot incidents live, although the incidents were reported verbally in news programmes, and in each case the change of policy had a good effect.
  I should like to pay my tribute, as others have done, to the restraint, often in the face of great provocation, shown by the soldiers, the police, the Protestant population as a whole, the moderate Catholics and the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland himself. In their very different ways they have been having a rough time in Ulster and they need our support and encouragement.
  It would be a great support and encouragement to them if my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister would visit the Province. I know how well informed he is about the situation there and how greatly concerned he is, but that is not known among the ordinary people in Ulster, nor among the troops. It is the only part of the United Kingdom which is in trial and turmoil, and the people there would appreciate—I know because they have told me so—the evidence of his concern. Everyone, soldier or civilian, to whom I talked in Ulster has sooner or later mentioned this and they have been talking about it since last summer.
  It would have to be made clear, of course, that he was going there not to return with some miraculous solution to our troubles but simply to look and listen. I believe that the people of Ulster would understand that. I have always thought that the best way to understand a problem or a people is to go to the source and talk to the people on their own ground.
  The other day, in reply to a Question from one of my hon. Friends, the Prime Minister said that he would go "at an opportune time". I hope that it will be very soon. An early visit would do an immense amount of good simply by showing his concern, his interest and his support for the troops and the unhappy people of Ulster. There is no panacea

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  which he or anyone else can devise, and we all know that perfectly well. We know that there is no quick or easy solution for the problems of Ireland, and there never has been.
  Peregrine Worsthorne wrote in the Sunday Telegraph two weeks ago that the British have always misgoverned Ireland because we do not understand the Irish. We do not much enjoy fighting, but the Irish love it. We do not understand how to hate; the Irish do. They forget nothing and they forgive nothing. In the North they remember William of Orange and the Battle of the Boyne. In the South they remember Queen Elizabeth I and Oliver Cromwell, the Potato Famine, the Easter Rising, and the Black and Tans of 50 years ago. They forget nothing and they live partly in the past.
  I am an optimist, and, despite the past, Protestants and Catholics have, in fact, co-existed peacefully in Ulster before and I believe that, once the I.R.A. is beaten, they will again. At least, that is the aim towards which all of us here should work.
  8.25 p.m.
  Mr. Maurice Foley: It is very rarely that I disagree with the hon. Member for Surbiton (Mr. Nigel Fisher), but this is one issue on which we profoundly disagree. It was rather cheap of him to suggest that we were concerned with the Irish votes in our constituencies and that that was our motivation for dividing the House. I hope that my own views will clearly demonstrate that we intend to divide the House because we profoundly believe that the Government have failed to grasp the urgency of the situation, have failed to produce anything in terms of political initiatives and by their inertia are conveying to the world their view that a military solution is the answer to Ulster's problems.
  I welcome the speech of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition precisely because it provokes thought. I do not believe that one can attempt any kind of time scale. What is needed is to start people thinking instead of accepting the slogans with which they have lived for so long. In that respect my right hon. Friend has done a service to the House
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  and the country. Equally, his long-term proposals should not prevent us from looking to the more immediate needs.
  In this respect the first reactions of the two voices of the Ulster Unionists were deplorable. The hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Chichester-Clark) quoted statistics from polls among the minority in the North. He seemed to have strange ideas of the behaviour of the Irish who emigrated to England. What he failed to say was that that poll was conducted by the Belfast Telegraph six or seven years ago. He has not even caught up with what has happened since—civil rights, the Bogside, the Hunt Report, British troops in the North, and so on.
  I was reminded that the leader of the Ulster Unionists was the authentic voice of Unionism because, just as he distorted these statistics so over many years, he and his colleagues have distorted statistics in the name of democracy in their gerrymandering in Londonderry for many years, so as to maintain electoral control over the affairs of the country.
  Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson: My hon. Friend was quoting from a study which has appeared in the last six months. The figures go back some time, but the book has just been published.
  Mr. Foley: He quoted the figures, but he did not give the time scale and he ought to be sure that the information he gives is correct. By giving figures which were six or seven years out of date, he suggested that half the minority in the North did not want to change the legal status of the North and that others did not have any opinion.
  What is tragic about the situation in the North is the extreme polarisation of the attitudes of the two communities. I shall not attempt to give percentages to show how people have been anxious to find acceptable proposals. The sad thing is that there are two hostile communities. That is the nature of this problem with which we have to deal.
  Much the same comment applies to the other voice of Ulster Unionism, the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley). The only remark in what he said that I liked came when he referred to unemployment and the need for economic development. However, I do

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  not think that this House needs any lectures on tolerance from the hon. Gentleman. After all, we hear his views expressed so often through the news media. We know the hon. Gentleman for what he is. However, the hon. Gentleman put his finger on the point when he discussed unemployment. We have before us a series of interlocking problems. They stem from political, economic, social and historical reasons, and they must be dealt with if we are to evolve some kind of solution.
  I want now to discuss the way in which the minority in Northern Ireland have been alienated and consciously have taken themselves away from belonging. They believe, I think rightly, that the whole paraphernalia of government in the North was designed to keep them in the minority, to keep them in their place. The feeling of not belonging was encouraged by the majority. This is the uniqueness of the problem in Northern Ireland, and it requires a unique solution.
  We have to try to understand the feeling of let-down after 1969 and through into 1970 if we want to deal fully with this problem of violence. The let-down resulted from the proposed reforms not being implemented quickly. Often there was a reluctant move to implement them, with the result that the minority began to believe that it was all a sham.
  I have cited the instance before in this House of the police authority. The Government of Northern Ireland appointed their members and then proceeded to appoint the members for the minority, saying that that was democracy. It could never happen in the case of the Lancashire police authority, but for Ulster it is different. It is this mentality, this notion, "We were born to rule, we shall dominate, we are in charge", with which we have to deal for the sake of members of the minority who have grown up with it and know nothing different.
  This is why, time and time again, one has seen eruptions about the Border and outbreaks of violence every 10 or 15 years. If we want to get to the root of it and deal with it effectively, we have to look not merely at the gunman but at the whole minority population which gives him protection and support. This is where the Government are wrong. They are responsible for asking the military to
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  perform a task when they are not performing their task of searching for political initiatives. We shall not defeat the gunman until we wean the minority away from him and from giving him protection. This is an aspect of thinking which so far has not been characterised in the Government's action.
  I move on to an experience that I had in the North last weekend—
  Mr. McManus: Before you leave that point, since the Government's minds are closed to hon. Members on this side representing Northern Ireland constituencies, perhaps I might through you make the vital point about internment, which has not yet got through to people in this country. There are 500,000 people in the North who are in the minority. The average family consists of 4·5—
  Mr. Wilkinson: On a point of order. Is it in order for an hon. Member opposite to engage in a dialogue with one of his hon. Friends and not address him through the Chair? Is not this stretching order a bit too far?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): Order. At any rate, it is not parliamentary. If an hon. Member wishes to make an interjection, he should be short and sharp and remember that time is running on.
  Mr. McManus: I am giving information to my hon. Friend. I am telling him that, on average, one household out of every 100 in Northern Ireland has now a man interned. Each family has a circle of friends. It means that internment is not an act of war against the I.R.A. It is an act against almost the entire community.
  Mr. Foley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I was about to come on to the problems imposed by the alienation of the minority.
  Last weekend, I was in Northern Ireland. I happened to go to Coalisland immediately following a search by the military. Troops had surrounded the town at 3.30 a.m. and set up road blocks. At about seven o'clock, they began knocking on doors and doing what they had to do. I do not blame them for that. Theirs is necessarily a distasteful task if they are to search for gunmen and their weapons.

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  I arrived in the area at about 9.30 a.m. At a road block at the crossroads outside the town there was a queue of nearly half a mile of vehicles. They had been there since 7 a.m. Between then and 9.30 a.m. or 9.45 a.m. nothing moved. There were bus loads of people on their way to work. There was a baker on his round. There were men needed urgently at the hospital. The outside curfew was lifted at about 10 a.m. and, when I went into the town, I met people on the streets. Some were annoyed at being disturbed and deprived of the chance of getting to work. Others were furious with the Army. Their comments about the Army were rather crusty. I heard verbal abuse from a number of people.
  I make the point not to say that the Army should not do its job, but to suggest that, in the process of searching the town, the I.R.A. may well have made a couple of hundred extra recruits. People were deprived of their liberty. They were not able to do their normal work. They were subjected to considerable inconvenience. This is repeated over and over again, in the absence of any kind of initiative, and it reinforces the view of the minority that the Army is there to conduct a campaign of repression. No matter how many times we say that it is not, members of the minority believe that it is, and they will continue to believe it until they see moves by this Government to take meaningful political initiatives whereby leaders of the minority can feel that at last they can sit down and talk because they have something meaningful to discuss.
  Today, the Home Secretary said that the Government accepted the first part of the proposals of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition for talks between the parties in this House, to be followed by talks with the major parties from Stormont. It is for Her Majesty's Government to prepare the ground for both sets of talks, if they hope for success, by disclosing their thoughts on a number of issues which are of fundamental importance.
  I put the first point to the right hon. Gentleman earlier today. I was not satisfied with his reply. I spoke of the Green Paper produced by the Northern Ireland Government referring to a P.R. system and an enlarged Senate. In that publication, the specific point is made that the
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  Government of Northern Ireland do not feel that they can accept in their Cabinet people whose long-term aim is a united Ireland. That is stated clearly in the Green Paper. When I asked the Home Secretary whether Her Majesty's Government subscribed to the view advanced by Mr. Faulkner, the right hon. Gentleman said that Dr. Newe, who had been brought into the Faulkner Government, had revealed in a private talk that he had received an assurance from Faulkner that he had no objection. However, that is not good enough for this House. Nor is it good enough for the success of any talks.
  The Government must state their views clearly. Do they believe that a person who wants to work in a peaceful manner towards a united Ireland should be excluded from representing his people effectively in the Northern Ireland Cabinet? That is the first point.
  Secondly, in terms of Government thinking, the proposal was made by myself among others, some months ago, that security in home affairs ought to be brought back to Westminster. The specific proposal was made by my right hon. Friend last Thursday in opening the debate. The Government must indicate, not necessarily with a degree of precision, but broadly, what is their view. It is not sufficient for the Home Secretary to say that there are obligations. What are these obligations? Is it that the Stormont Government do not wish to give up any of their powers? Is it, as some people feel, that the tail is wagging the dog? Or is there a military reason? The House ought to be let into the Home Secretary's confidence on this broad issue.
  My final point has to do with the credence of a military solution. What I fear is that, because it is said by many people that the Army is getting on top of the situation, this will be regarded as enough; that once the gunmen are gone it will be felt that there are no problems left. That may be the suggestion emanating from people in the Unionist Party in the North who say, "Thank you—leave the Army here until we have had the chance to reorganise the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the B Specials, then leave us alone. We do not want the reform of Stormont." [An HON. MEMBER: "Good government

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  is the answer."] If this is the result of 50 years of good majority government, it is a sad commentary that British troops have had to go in to protect the minority; that Hunt had to do what he did; that we have not yet had Scarman and all that it will reveal. If this is good government, it is standing the term on its head, and it is time, in that event, that we got rid of it altogether. As for the initial proposals involving the major parties in the North, if they are to have a cat in Hell's chance of success, the Government must, in the first instance, disclose their mind on the fundamental issues involved.
  8.45 p.m.
  Mr. James Molyneaux: The hon. Member for West Bromwich (Mr. Foley) seemed anxious to obtain the relevant dates which were mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry (Mr. Chichester-Clark). The figures were based on a survey carried out in 1968, and not eight year ago as he suggested. All of us in Northern Ireland sympathise with the inhabitants of Coalisland in the inconvenience caused them. I would suggest that the message to be conveyed to them from this House ought to be that if they would refrain from attacking, or allowing the attacks to continue, almost nightly, on the Royal Ulster Constabulary police station, they would be left in peace. So long as these attacks continue the people of Coalisland must expect to be put to a degree of inconvenience.
  Over the past weekend many citizens of Northern Ireland have been almost wishing that this debate had never taken place. They have seen death and suffering, resulting from what I call the nose-thumbing response and reaction of the terrorists who despise the proposed solutions and exploit the confusion which is caused by those in this House who condemn the violence but accept and concede the objectives of that violence.
  In the first day of the debate it was evident that many hon. Members and some right hon. Members still harboured many misconceptions. It is vital that these should be removed if we are to form an objective judgment and make a realistic approach to the problems confronting these islands.
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  The first misconception is that the rôle of the Army has changed. There has been a development of the situation flowing directly from decisions taken in 1969 when, having decided that the Ulster security system must be dismantled to placate Republican anarchists, the United Kingdom Government asserted in the Downing Street Declaration this incredible statement:
  "They"—
  that is Her Majesty's Government—
  "emphasised again that troops will be withdrawn when law and order has been restored."
  The two things are contradictory because once local security had been destroyed the Army could never be withdrawn and when the Army became the only effective law enforcement instrument it was inevitable that conflict with law-breakers would steadily increase.
  We who know the Republican mind saw that it would never accept what chooses to regard as foreign imperialist soldiers tramping on its sacred soil. It suited such people to hide their feelings for the time being and enjoy the immunity afforded by the policy of containment and even protection of the "no go" areas to build up their strength, equip themselves with arms and impose their will and domination on the Catholic people of their communes.
  When they launched their offensive, then of course the rôle of the Army changed, and the soldiers had to face vicious attacks launched from areas which they for so long had protected. The terrorist offensive naturally startled, shocked and indeed stunned many People in Great Britain. At last all but the very few who do not want to see fully realise the real nature of the events in Ulster since 1968.
  I turn now to the other misconception, that the—
  Mr. Simon Mahon rose—
  Mr. Molyneaux: I am sorry, I cannot give way. I have given an undertaking to be brief.
  The Leader of the Opposition expressed pained surprise at the rate at which a given set of reforms became obsolete and inadequate. What has happened since 1968 is that as one set of reforms has been introduced the agitators, not the majority, increased their bidding.

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  Now they are bidding to abolish the Stormont system. We must be fair to them and acknowledge that they said very clearly that they wanted not reform but revolution. It is a strange thing to me that people flatly refuse to accept the evidence of their own eyes—
  Mr. McManus: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it not a fact that it is against the best traditions of this House for an hon. Member to read his speech?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Yes, it is against the best traditions, but it is customary for Members to refresh themselves with copious notes.
  Mr. Molyneaux: The Leader of the Opposition referred to the latest Stormont offer of the key chairmanship of committees at Stormont to members of the minority. He contrasted what he described as the enthusiastic and strong welcome given to the offer by the S.D.L.P. with its withdrawal from Stormont a few weeks later. If the right hon. Gentleman had looked a little more closely he would have detected at the backs of the S.D.L.P. members the guns of the I.R.A., which could not possibly permit the S.D.L.P. to enter into any arrangement which would perpetuate the Stormont system, which it was determined to destroy. So great was the S.D.L.P.'s haste that it could not take time even to look for credible excuses for withdrawal. It seized on the rather ludicrous idea of protest that the Ministry of Defence in London refused to grant an inquiry into the Cusacks shootings. It was not until many weeks later that it switched to a protest against internment.
  It has been suggested that security should be transferred to Westminster. There is in Northern Ireland a police authority on which both communities are represented. In fact, they are so well represented that when one member took part in and assisted at an I.R.A. Press conference he was, at the unanimous request of all his colleagues on both sides, removed from the authority. It is also a fact that the Minister for Home Affairs at Stormont who appointed the authority stated in the Stormont Parliament that he had accepted all the representatives of the minority who had been nominated by the various public authorities. But all
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  that would be gained by substituting Westminster for Stormont in the control of security would be distance and delay. So delicate and decisive is the control of public order in Northern Ireland that it must be handled on the spot with speed by responsible and knowledgeable people.
  A rational Irish settlement for the twenty-first century would be for Ireland to be united within the United Kingdom. The minority of million-odd in the north would then get the best of both worlds. They want the abolition of Stormont and they also want the benefits of the British Welfare State: they would get both. The finger points to their political leaders: what do we see there? We see a group of men holding out, as their predecessors have done for over 50 years, for an independent all-Ireland republic, knowing that the whole idea is repugnant to the majority of the electorate in Northern Ireland and, indeed, not in the best interests of their own supporters.
  This failure on the part of the Stormont Opposition to offer the electorate any constitutional alternative has made one-party rule inevitable. The blame has been laid, quite illogically, on the ruling party or on the system. The deprivation of political power has been represented as the deprivation of civil rights. Any effective measures taken by the Government to resist the enforcement of minority rule by extra-parliamentary methods—civil disobedience and urban guerrilla warfare—have been represented as repression. There is nothing wrong with the system but only with the refusal of the Opposition to work it.
  The search for political initiatives need go no further than the leaders of the S.D.L.P. Can they not now, even at this very late hour, drop their posture of injured alienation and start working constructively for a peaceful and prosperous Ulster? Their alternative is to go on fomenting extra-parliamentary pressures in the hope that some British Government of the future will eventually withdraw the Army, and give the several armies of the Irish Republic, official and unofficial, a free run in the North. What do they want—democracy or blood?
  8.55 p.m.
  Miss Bernadette Devlin: I am grateful at this late hour for the opportunity to take part in the debate.

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  If I may say so with due respect to the Chair, we in Northern Ireland are more than happy that hon. Members should visit, so to speak, the scene of the crime, and we are grateful for the short-term measure which makes up for our falling off in tourism, but those who live there and represent the area would be grateful if, in debates on Northern Ireland Members who make a whistle stop tour of the area would take so much time to not recount all their experiences. We live there and know what it is like, and the House has heard it all.
  I should like to address as briefly as I can most of my remarks to the Leader of the Opposition. I am sorry that he is not in the House this evening. One of the most important things about the speech of the Leader of the Opposition was that he was giving the Tory Front Bench—and perhaps right hon. Gentlemen opposite would have done well to listen—an effective lecture on how one ought to be a successful imperialist in 1971. If the Tories do not realise it, the leadership of the British Labour Party, as represented by the Opposition Front Bench, is aware that we live in 1970, and that British interests in Ireland have changed vastly from the old constitutional days and the Treaty of 1920.
  What the Leader of the Opposition was trying to say to leaders of the Tory Party and to the Prime Minister was that things in Ireland were not the same as they used to be. There is massive British investment in the south of Ireland on what might be described as classical neo-colonial lines, and the days of serving the British interest by bolstering the Orange régime have gone. It is now at least as desirable to maintain friendly relationships with capital and Irish Toryism south of the Border as to continue that relationship in the North.
  What the Leader of the Opposition was saying was that since the Tories came to power in June, 1970, they have shown little awareness of that need, and that they have acted, not in the best interests of British imperialism, but on the basis of a primitive, basic, simple Tory instinct, which is to smash with as much savagery as it requires any attempt to upset the status quo.
  The Leader of the Opposition was saying that that was a crude way to go
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  about their business in 1971. There is no need to smash everybody down. There are those who can be bought off, and the Government ought to buy those who are offering themselves for sale, and it would appear from the right hon. Gentleman's recent safari that he had some bargain offers in the North and South of Ireland.
  I ask hon. Members to cast their minds back to one of the right hon. Gentleman's previous ideas. He was the master-mind behind what is better known to some of us as the Magna Carta of the middle classes, the Downing Street Agreement. That was another little plan put forward by the right hon. Gentleman, and yet in this House last Thursday he said that he had now discovered that it would not work. Two years ago when it was proposed in this House it was welcomed and applauded by the three major parties in the south of Ireland, it was applauded by the three major parties in this House, and by all bodies of opinion representing themselves as moderate and responsible in Northern Ireland. If my memory serves me correctly, I was the only Member who said—though no one believed it, and thought that I was my usual irresponsible self—that the Downing Street Agreement would not work.
  I am glad that after two years the right hon. Gentleman has finally agreed with me that it will not work, and I hope that it will not take two years to learn that his present plan will not work, either. Despite the fact that it has not been received with unanimous approval in the North or South of Ireland, or in this country, it has met with sufficient approval to produce the chance that it might work, but I should like to put forward a number of reasons why it will not.
  First, there is the question of a military victory before the implementation of the political solutions. I think that that shows little or no understanding of the situation, of the nature of the I.R.A., or of the reason why its members are supported by the Catholic community in the North of Ireland. There are two fundamental reasons which, if for no other reason, explain it in sound rational terms, if not to hon. Members, certainly to members of the Catholic community from whom the I.R.A. come.

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  From the inception of the Northern Ireland system 50 years ago members of the Catholic community have been physically insecure. Their communities and their lives have on occasion been threatened. People have been terrorised, others have been murdered, and yet others have been burned out of their homes. That has been part and parcel of the lives of the people there. The most recent example, which hon. Members will recall, occurred in August, 1969 when there were, once again, attacks on the Catholic areas, both in Belfast and Derry.
  These attacks were not carried out by an independent mob of hooligans, they were carried out by the forces of the North of Ireland State, the visible representatives of the State. Therefore, once again, in the minds of Catholic people, their security could be seen only in two forms—in the immediate form of repulsing any attack by the forces of the State and in the long term by smashing the very State which they represented.
  There is now a situation in which, following the Tory Government coming to power and the failure of any attempt at a political solution, whether this House likes it or not, to the members of the Catholic community, the British Army appears today as an R.U.C. in a different uniform. Today it is British soldiers who drag people off in the dead of night to internment camps, who intern them, who interrogate them and who torture them. It was British Army bullets which killed Eamon McDevitt, Annette McGavigern, Seamus Cusacks, Harry Thornton, Mrs. Meehan, Desmond Beattie, and a number of other people. In all, 27 people have been killed, who are admitted at this stage by the British Army to have been killed in error.
  Therefore, that Catholic community, feeling insecure, requires and sees first of all the British Army as some kind of intruder, some kind of hostile element, and it requires the day-to-day security of actions to get them out of the Catholic ghettoes. It also requires as a long-term security the end of the State itself.
  The I.R.A. does not steal across the Border in the dead of night, as has been said. It is rooted in the communities in which it acts and lives, and it is supported there. The I.R.A. is ready to take on any hostile body, to take on any
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  invader. Also, believing in the basis of smashing the State, it appears to the community in the Catholic ghettos as representing the same aspirations, on a simple level, which they themselves have.
  Therefore, when the Leader of the Opposition says that he will have a military victory over the I.R.A., let me tell this House; it is simply not on. One cannot do it by declaring that one will root out the last I.R.A. man, by declaring that one will seek a military victory, that one will take on, lock, stock and barrel, the Catholic community from which the I.R.A. comes.
  What they will have to do to get through and defeat the I.R.A. or ask them to pitch their tents elsewhere—[HON. MEMBERS: "Not true."] Hon. Gentlemen may say, "Not true". The same hon. Gentlemen, being a good deal older than myself, may have sat on these very benches at the time of Aden and at the time of Cyprus and, with the same meaningless wisdom, have said, "It is not true", and it turned out to be true.
  Among the responsible hon. Members, we have the Leader of the Opposition, who went to Northern Ireland and met everyone from the middle-class upwards, but did not meet the gunmen, because that was not responsible. I ask, if it is not responsible to talk to these gunmen of whom the right hon. Gentleman speaks so glibly, how is he going to understand the nature of the community from which they come? How will he understand the nature of the problem?
  They always say in this House that they will not talk to gunmen. What hypocrisy. They will not talk to men of violence. These people who maintain a standing army of professional gunmen say that they will not talk of people of violence. What happened in Aden? Did they talk to the gunmen there? What happened in Cyprus? Did they talk to them there? Yes, they did. What is so different in Ireland? Because we are white and speak English, do we have a different brand of gunmen? If that is the attitude of the House, hon. Members are very mistaken.
  It has been said in this House—I would like to say this before I leave the military question and come to the economic problems: I will try not to keep the House more than another two minutes—that there can be no neutrality. A lot is

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  heard about the British Army, about hon. Members not being allowed to say anything which might weaken the morale of the British Army, that no one in this House is neutral, that no one can be. But I have explained the nature of the I.R.A. and the nature of the community from which it conies. I want to make my position clear without apology to the House.
  There is no neutrality on the question of the military victory. If it is the intention of the House to take on the community from which I come, to take on the people whom I represent, as I believe they are doing and as I believe it is their avowed intention so to do, nor am I neutral. I do not ally myself to the British Army. I see them as the forces of imperialism.
  I have publicly condemned many of the activities of the I.R.A. I certainly do not cross every "t" and dot every "i" of the conduct of either wing of the I.R.A. Indeed, I do not believe that terrorism will bring about a solution to the problems of Northern Ireland. Only a Socialist revolution will at the end of the day do that.
  Nevertheless, when one is forced to take sides, while I have my criticisms of the I.R.A., it is clear that this House takes its side with the British Army, and I, without apology, take mine with the I.R.A. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."] It is all very well for hon. Gentlemen opposite to cry "Shame", which is one of the semantics of this House. I prefer to shout the facts.
  I agree with everything that has been said about the need for economic proposals for Northern Ireland. We need radical economic changes because we are a poor country. Why are we so poor? Much play is made of the amount of money that flows from the British Exchequer to the people of Northern Ireland and about the British benefits that are paid to the people of my country. They are not just British benefits. They are working-class benefits paid for by working-class money. That is why we have them.
  We hear a lot about how much we in Northern Ireland cost the British taxpayer, but little is said about how much money flows not from here across the
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  Irish Sea to Ireland but back not to the people of this country but into the pockets of the chairmen, directors and shareholders of, among others, I.C.I., Courtaulds and Chemstrand. These are the sort of people who have exploited the people of Ireland for their own purposes.
  If hon. Gentlemen opposite want to bring about changes in Northern Ireland and not simple to rearrange the system as it exists, if they want to find a better relationship between British imperialism in Ireland as it exists today and the exploitation of Irish labour, then let me propose, not for the first time in this House, that something be done about the 10·2 per cent. male unemployment rate in Northern Ireland. The figure in the past 12 years has never been below 7 per cent. If hon. Members want to do something to end that heavy rate of unemployment, let them ban the export of profits from Northern Ireland.
  It is, of course, almost ludicrous to suggest that that shower on the Front Bench opposite who represent British economic imperialism in Northern Ireland should do anything. They are responsible for creating one million unemployed in this country. Nor will this House take action to get rid of Northern Ireland's housing debt and so allow us to build houses that the working class can afford to rent. That will not happen.
  It is clearly pointless asking the occupants of the Government Front Bench to consider any constructive proposals that might be taken. All I can do is to appeal—not to them or, for that matter, even to the Opposition Front Bench—to those who believe in the rights of the working class, British or Irish, to bring down the Tory Government and put in their place a Socialist Government who will implement the kind of radical economic changes we need.
  In the last debate—[Interruption.] Before allowing the Front Bench speakers to ramble on about non-existent solutions I must make this point—I tried to ask the Minister of State for Defence a question, but I was not allowed to do so. I wanted to question him about the Compton Report. Much play has been made of this Report. Is it not a fact that the Tory Government were well aware that the last inquiry ordered by this House on the lines of the Compton

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  Inquiry was the Profumo Inquiry? Following that, a Royal Commission on Inquiries was set up to investigate—[Interruption.] Lord Justice Salmon, reporting on that Royal Commission, said clearly that no future Government should again attempt to use in a highly charged political matter the kind of inquiry that was used in the Profumo affair. Despite that warning, the Compton Inquiry was set up on exactly the same lines. It infringed 12 major points which Lord Justice Salmon had made. It is clear that it was designed not to seek the truth but to prevent it from reaching the light of day. [HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."] Those are Lord Justice Salmon's words, not mine.
  My last point is about censorship. Many hon. Members seem to be worried about censorship, but they have little to fear when, in the North of Ireland only 48 hours ago, six young people, guilty of no more or no less crime than selling on the streets The Free Citizen, a two-page paper—now called The Unfree Citizen since internment—were arrested under Section 10 of the Special Powers Act and detained for 48 hours. Such was their crime and violence. But there is no need for hon. Members opposite to worry about censorship, if they remember once again their adventures in Aden and Cyprus. I am sorry that the hon. and gallant Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Lieut.-Col. Colin Mitchell) is not present, because he would vouch for the fact that the British Press are full and four-square behind the British Government and his policies. The hon. and gallant Member for Aberdeenshire, West was a murderer of the people of the Southern Yemen, and the British Press will stand equally solidly behind his successors in Northern Ireland today.
  9.10 p.m.
  Mr. James Callaghan: For the first time in the House I have the unusual experience of Conservative Members apparently wishing to listen to me. I thank the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Miss Devlin) for that unaccustomed courtesy. The debate has also had the other remarkable effect that the last two partisan speakers, the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster and the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley), have been brought to agreement in condemning the speech of my right hon. Friend the
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  Leader of the Opposition. At least we are getting on. I have always said that it was an essential pre-condition of solving the problems in Northern Ireland that the people of Northern Ireland themselves should agree, and if they can only agree at least that we are wrong, that is a first step in the right direction, and I am glad to hear it.
  It is fair to say that my right hon. Friend's speech set the course of the debate. He has presented the Government with a very considerable opportunity. It was a bold and imaginative initiative. The question now is how it is to be treated by the Government and by the Opposition. That is perhaps even more important than the way in which others treat it. Although I have always taken the view that the British Parliament perhaps has an important but marginal rôle to play in this particular matter, I am not altogether discouraged by the reception that my right hon. Friend's speech has had. The Home Secretary said that it was novel, ingenious but not very realistic; nevertheless, he was willing to discuss it.
  One of the tasks of an Opposition, especially when faced with a Government who do not seem to know how to handle the situation, is to say things which may be uncomfortable and disconcerting and which the Government may not even wish them to say. This is the way that the debate is carried forward in our democracy. It sometimes happens that what an Opposition says today is vehemently attacked by the Government but is adopted by the Government as policy tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.
  As to other comments, they are very much what one would expect. No one would expect Mr. Falkner to say more than he has said at present, or Mr. Lynch to embrace enthusiastically the idea of joining the Commonwealth. It is important that we should discuss the issue first in the House between the parties and, second, and as soon as possible, in wider circles.
  It has taken a desperate situation to create an opportunity for fresh thinking. My one fear is that many of the majority in Northern Ireland, but not all, may still believe that once the I.R.A. has ceased to exist as an effective fighting force, they can turn to a system that existed before 1968–69. I do not believe that

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  they can, and more and more people in Northern Ireland themselves are coming to that conclusion. I sometimes wonder whether the politicians are not behind the people in the sense of being in the rear of people of Northern Ireland in some of these matters and, because politicians are always to some extent prisoners of the mists of the past, whether they are not able to say what an increasing number, but as yet still a minority, of people in Northern Ireland are saying about these particular problems. If the I.R.A. ceased to be an effective fighting force—which is not impossible and I hope that they do cease to be such a force—there will be a very great temptation confronting the Government, with the problems of the E.E.C., unemployment, inflation and the rest, for the problem of Northern Ireland to cease to form part of the Cabinets agenda. I beg the Government not to allow that to happen.
  As a result of a great deal of bloodshed and violence, we have been presented with a possible opportunity for a long-term settlement—I do not know whether this would be a final settlement of this problem. I hope that if the violence ceased the Government and certainly the Opposition would keep this matter right at the top of the agenda. We now have the best chance since 1921 to shift the centre of gravity of this recurring problem. How shall we do it?
  My right hon. Friend called for examination of what would be involved in the constitution for a united Ireland. He did not say that this would be achieved in 15 years' time. He said that it would be achieved 15 years after agreement had been reached—which is a very different matter from what has been the common interpretation put upon his speech up till now. He then called for an examination of what would be involved. He said that some would undertake that examination with a determination to bring it about and others would merely do it as an exercise.
  It is our view that one should begin by bringing in the Westminster Parliament and Westminster parties, and then the Northern Ireland parties at a later date. It is possible that we would get some surprising results, and surprising combinations of persons may emerge from
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  such examination, especially as the condition for it is that it should first be conducted by the parties and Government in Northern Ireland alongside the parties and Government in the United Kingdom. The parties in the North may find that they have more in common than they now seem to believe, especially if the chorus of hate dies down and they have to sit around a conference table. They may find that they have more to discuss and that their supporters may be closer together than they possibly even think at present.
  Once they sit around a table they may discover alliances and an identity of interest on a number of problems which are now submerged. I agree with the hon. Member for Antrim, North that the people of Northern Ireland must come together before any great changes can be embarked upon. I think we all agree that they cannot be forced by violence into unity. If we do not agree that, there is no common ground between us. This is the possibility which my right hon. Friend's speech has opened up. I trust that the Government will grasp it in the spirit in which it was proferred.
  I now turn to the matters of our dissatisfaction with the Government's handling of the situation. There is no doubt that it is the problem of internment which has concerned the Opposition very much. I will explain why. I believe that this has been the turning point in our relations with the Government—the techniques of interrogation which were discussed by the House last week, techniques not previously known to the House. Internment first began four months ago. The number of people who have been affected in some way or another are considerable. The Home Secretary has been good enough to supply me with figures. I do not know whether the House realises that 1,260 men have been arrested and detained for varying periods. One-half of these—625—have been released without either an internment order or a detention order being served on them. That is to say, they were held for short periods and then released. At present, 477 are held under detention orders or internment orders.
  Under Regulation 11—and the House should realise this and consider the principle against which we are dissatisfied on the issue of internment and see what can

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  be done about it—there are 126 people detained. These are persons who have been arrested without warrant as persons suspected of acting or having acted or of being about to act in a manner pre- judicial to the preservation of peace, or who are suspected of having committed an offence against the regulations. These persons are arrested on the order of a Minister—not of a court, be it noted. They are detained on a Minister's order in prison or elsewhere. Their finger- prints can be taken. They may be photo- graphed and they may be interrogated They can be released only after a Minister so directs in writing a resident magistrate, who may then discharge them.
  Behind the mere recital of these powers of detention and release, surely there is a clue to why the minority is now so disaffected. Regulation 12 says that a person may be detained when a county inspector of the Royal Ulster Constabulary recommends to the Minister of Home Affairs that it is expedient that internment should take place because he is suspected of having acted, or acting, or being about to act, in a manner prejudicial to the peace or maintenance of order. A total of 351 men are now so interned.
  Despite the fact that four months have gone by since internment was introduced, the Government have not come forward with any plans of a major nature for altering or modifying this procedure. These men are now detained on the order of a Minister for an indefinite period without charges having been brought against them. Surely this is a matter upon which the House of Commons should itself be concerned. The Home Secretary said today that technically it is a matter for the Northern Ireland Government. We do not accept that it should or could be left there.
  If Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom, as it is claimed to be and as I accept that it is, it seems to me that, however uncomfortable and distasteful it may be, it is the responsibility of the sovereign Government at Westminster to accept responsibility for this situation. We cannot and should not, in my view, if we are all members of the United Kingdom, deprive a man of his liberty without trial for an indefinite period unless we ourselves are ready to
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  take responsibility for it. That is the first point I put to the Prime Minister.
  The House may be surprised to know that in early spring, 1969, we seemed to be getting to the position where the Northern Ireland Government themselves were willing to get rid of the Special Powers Act and replace it by permanent legislation. Alas, the proposition fell. Events overtook us. But it looked as if we might get to that position. Now we may have to revive it again, and I think that we should—with the difference that we should consider whether the British Government should not undertake legislative responsibility for such a vital issue as this. This will make us much more aware of how and when these powers are to be used.
  In our view, the requirements are that this Parliament at Westminster should agree the occasions when the special powers are required; that the British Parliament should be responsible for their renewal at fixed intervals; that those detained or interned should be informed what charges are preferred against them; and that there should be a hearing, which may be and usually will be in private, although on occasions it may be in public. We believe that there should be a judge who should determine whether such a hearing should take place in private or in public in accordance with well defined rules, and that those so charged should have the assistance of lawyers to help them to present their case.
  The question was raised today: Do you want to confront them with witnesses? No, I do not. But what I regard as basic to the conditions I have laid down is that they should be notified of the charges and given the assistance of lawyers in presenting their case, and that they should be able to present their case to an independent tribunal. I do not think that it is possible in present circumstances in Northern Ireland to face them with their accusers, but it is an important part, I understand, of the criminal law that a man should be faced with his accusers. How do we get over that?
  We suggest that it could be done by allowing the judge to determine the credibility of the accuser. We must all of us have had letters from people in Northern Ireland who have relatives detained but they do not know on what

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  charge or for how long. This is not right. It is this, I believe, which has led many more—an increasing number—of people to take up this cause and say that this procedure is not adequate to present purposes. I believe that many more people will yet say so as well. If we were to tell the man what the charges were, and allow the judge to see his accuser and determine his credibility, we would be in a fair position to determine it.
  We have two living ex-Lord Chancellors—Lord Gardiner and Lord Dilhorne. I would like to see them take an active hand in this matter. I believe it could bring at least a lot of satisfaction here.
  I go on from this to say that it is not the view of the Opposition that all internees should be released. [Interruption.] That is not what the Amendment says. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, I know, has been busy today. But if he reads the Amendment he will see that it says that they should not continue in detention without trial. What I have suggested is a form of trial which at least, if not consistent with the normal processes of law in this country, comes as close to it as possible in the circumstances of Northern Ireland. That is where we stand, and we believe it would enable some confidence to be restored.
  The next point is that if confidence is to be restored the Leader of the Unionist Party must relinquish his right to decide whether a man should be interned or released. This is not to cast any aspersions upon Mr. Faulkner. It is to recognise that the Prime Minister of a country which is as divided as Northern Ireland, who holds his position only by the support of one section of the community, does not and cannot command the confidence of the minority in a matter so sensitive and vital as this. We do not propose the release of the committed I.R.A. men. We propose a procedure which we believe should get as close to achieving justice as is possible in these circumstances.
  I will leave the question of interrogation in depth except to say that it is our view that the Privy Councillors—we intend to appoint a Privy Councillor to this Committee of Inquiry—should begin from the basic principle that there
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  cannot be acceptable methods of interrogation which involve ill-treatment or brutality.
  The Amendment that we vote for tonight will mark our approach to the problem of talks between the parties in this country. There has been much talk about bipartisan arrangements. What is our responsibility? It is obviously not our responsibility to say "Yes" to everything that the Government put forward. Our responsibility is to say on what conditions we believe co-operation on an issue as vital as this can be achieved. That is our responsibility and that is what my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and my right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, East (Mr. George Thomson) have been saying. We believe that such talks will have a greater chance of success if they are conducted whilst violence is still going on. We do not believe it is sufficient to wait until violence is over and the I.R.A. has been mauled.
  We believe that such talks themselves, the knowledge that they are going on—if the Prime Minister will give me two or three minutes, because I must take a little time to say how I think these talks should be carried on—would lessen support for the I.R.A. among the minority in that country. These talks would also have a greater chance of success if the Government introduced measures similar to those which I suggested on the subject of internment.
  Thirdly, we believe that the talks would have a greater chance of success if the agenda was all-embracing, if it was as wide as Ireland itself, so that we could get everybody round the table—those who believe, as the hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Chichester-Clark) does, that Northern Ireland should be fully integrated into the United Kingdom, and those who believe that the Border should be abolished as soon as possible. Every item should be on the agenda of these talks, and nothing should be excluded.
  If we did that, the procedure could be as follows. First, let us have talks between the parties in this country. Let us see whether we can agree upon a procedure—I would not go any further than that—for holding the talks and on the range of the agenda, although obviously not on the items on the agenda. Then let us see whether the Northern

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  Ireland parties and the Northern Ireland Government would join in. Then we should establish a Commission of all concerned, of Great Britain parties and Northern Ireland parties, perhaps with an independent non-governmental chairman. Such a Commission would have to meet for a considerable period; it might be for a year or even longer—I do not know. We would see it moving along, with substantial periods of adjournment for talks between the various parties which make up the Commission. We believe that the adjournments could be framed in such a way that any such private conversations could go on without unnecessary haste.
  As I understand it, the Government do not seem to be keen on such an all-embracing agenda. Their Amendment refers only to giving the minority
  "an active, guaranteed and permanent role in the public affairs of the Province".
  It so happens that I believe, as I said before, that if they all got together they would discover unsuspected merits in one another and, perhaps, unsuspected identities of view, though, perhaps, it might go no further than that. But if we are to get people round the table, we must allow them to hammer out all these problems and have a clash of the various diametrically opposed views which now hold the day. If we exclude anything from the agenda, we should, in my view, militate against the success of the talks.
  The House will realise that I have tended to go rather fast and to leave out a great deal of material which I should otherwise have wished to include. I wish now to end on this note, a note which has been hinted at already by a number of hon. Members: the one hopeful factor in this situation is that we are not now in 1912, either on this side of the Channel, between the parties here, or on the other side of the Channel. Anyone who harks back to 1912 is mistaking the mood of the people of Northern Ireland themselves, who are the people primarily concerned. There is the need which ordinary people always feel for some settlement of their affairs. They want to know the worst in some cases, they hope for the best in many others, but they want to feel that some agreement can be reached.
  There is a great prize to be gained. I believe that the terrible strife we have gone through puts such a prize within
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  our grasp. Given energy, greater energy than the Government have shown so far, and given an open-minded approach on this question, I believe that it will be possible for us to achieve that prize.
  9.32 p.m.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Edward Heath): The House will agree that this two-day debate has been unusual by any criteria. I much regret that the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) found it necessary to rush what he had to say and to omit a great deal of what I know he wishes to contribute to the debate.
  On the first day we had a detailed analysis of immense interest and then a constructive series of proposals from the Leader of the Opposition, following his visit to Northern Ireland. In that speech, the right hon. Gentleman asked for talks with Her Majesty's Government, and asked for a warm and positive response to his request. That response he received from my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, and it was fully repeated this afternoon; namely, acceptance of the right hon. Gentleman's initiative, or his request, that there should be full talks.
  I was very glad that the Leader of the Opposition made that request in his speech on Thursday. I fear that if we had suggested the talks ourselves, he might not have been allowed to respond. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] As he has made it, we can respond, and we have responded, and I assure his right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East that we respond without any limitations on the agenda. They will be perfectly open-ended talks, just as my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary intended in his proposal for talks with all parties in Northern Ireland. I assure the right hon. Gentleman also that for our part, as I imagine on his own part, there are no commitments to specific policies as regards the talks. He himself suggested that the first part should be on procedure.
  We are absolutely determined that when the shooting and the bombing stops, everything will be done to reach a full solution to the problems of Northern Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman expressed his anxiety that, when violence ceases in Northern Ireland, both sides of the Channel will slip back into indifference again. I assure him that, from

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  the point of view of Her Majesty's Government, that is certainly not so.
  Following the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, however, which, as I said, presented a constructive set of proposals, his party immediately put down a Motion condemning the Government. I think that even the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East will agree that that is a somewhat unusual procedure in a debate of this kind, and it is to the credit of his right hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, East (Mr. George Thomson) that his attempt to explain it this afternoon failed miserably.
  As the Opposition have decided to divide the House tonight, there is something I must say right at the beginning of my speech. It is that tonight's vote by the Opposition will make absolutely no difference to Her Majesty's Govern-men's determination to deal with violence in Northern Ireland, no difference to our determination to overcome the bombers and the gunmen. I must make it plain to Her Majesty's Forces, to the Government of Northern Ireland and to the people of Northern Ireland, of all creeds and political beliefs, that we will pursue this objective with all the vigour and resources necessary to achieve our aim. I must therefore make it clear to any, whether North or South of the Border, who may be toying with fantasies that Britain will withdraw her forces from part of the United Kingdom and leave the gunmen to bring about a united Ireland by force, that that is not going to happen.
  There have been many congratulations to Her Majesty's Forces, quite rightly, and the Commander-in-Chief, from the Leader of the Opposition. I therefore very much regretted that the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) saw fit in his speech to allege that the British Army had been responsible for shooting down innocent men, women and children. I know that he condemned the terrorists and has done so before, and for that we are grateful, but allegations of that kind are unworthy of him. I regret it, because I am sure that he knows that they are just not true and that time and time again members of Her Majesty's Forces have chosen, at great risk to themselves, to refrain from returning fire aimed at them by snipers,
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  simply because there were crowds of bystanders and because of the risk of hitting innocent people, and Her Majesty's Forces ought to have the credit for that restraint. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman should have expressed those views.
  Dealing with the gunmen was the first priority of the Leader of the Opposition. I hope that there is no doubt about this. He said:
  "The violence must be rooted out before any new proposals can be put into effect."
  He added:
  "First, violence must cease and be seen to have ceased".
  That is a very clear priority by the Leader of the Opposition.
  There is a connection between this and internment. It should be recalled that it was after a visit to Northern Ireland, when he was given every facility and official facilities, that the Leader of the Opposition gave his view, and I want to quote it very fully. He said:
  "It is not my task today to attempt a military appreciation, still less to reveal what I was told on Privy Councillor terms about the arrangements made by the right hon. Gentleman. From a number of those whom I met—not on a basis of enjoining secrecy—there was a feeling of very cautious, restrained, touching-wood optimism that the worst of the violence is over.
  If that is so—and I regret having to say this to any of my hon. Friends, especially in view of my own criticisms at the time—then part at least of this—and some in a position to estimate said this even if they were opposed to internment at the time—is due to information available as a result of internment and only so available."
  That is the considered view of the Leader of the Opposition after discussing the matter, and he went on to discuss the political implications of that. If the first priority is to put down violence, as the Leader of the Opposition said, and if internment by providing information is contributing to that, it is internment rather than the political implications which must be used to deal with the gunmen. That is a perfectly clear arrangement of priorities, and we fully recognise all the difficulties of internment, as we said in the debate in September, but it was a question of priorities.
  I therefore agreed with the conclusion of the Leader of the Opposition when in his proposals he said that, after the

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  conference and after working out the constitution:
  "Third, internment would cease as soon as the necessary conditions exist for an improvement in confidence, it being understood that all against whom criminal charges were to be preferred would be subject to normal criminal procedure."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th November, 1971; Vol. 826, c. 1577–88.]
  Of course, at this moment, if criminal charges can be preferred in Northern Ireland, they are being made, but nobody can argue that, in the words of the Leader of the Opposition, the necessary conditions exist for an improvement in confidence.
  I must say in all fairness to the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East that his Motion is quite clear, and it says:
  "declines to support the continuance of internment without trial."
  If there were a trial, it would not be internment. It is the whole characteristic of internment that there is no trial. The Motion does not say that the Opposition decline to support the continuance of internment without trial under the Northern Ireland Government, with the implication that if it were transferred to Westminster it would be all right. The Motion declines to support the continuance of internment without trial and, therefore, puts it plainly on record that even if alterations in the system were made, alterations which the right hon. Gentleman has requested this evening, the Opposition would still decline to support internment because it is internment without trial.
  Mr. Callaghan: I want to make it absolutely clear that if the kind of procedure I have outlined were carried out, with minor modifications, perhaps, but broadly in full, and it led to the conclusion that a man should continue to be detained, I should support that conclusion.
  The Prime Minister: I am glad to hear that, because I am about to discuss the matters which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned. But I must say clearly that that is not what the Motion says and is therefore not what the right hon. Gentleman is dividing the House about.
  I want to deal with the issue of detainees because it was raised by a number of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen. It
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  has been suggested to us at times that, rather than have internment, we should hold people for long periods in detention. This has been put to us by a number of other countries which have said that we should not then have the international problems which we have with internment. That I reject entirely. It would be an even worse situation in which people were detained without any formal declaration of internment, or the opportunity of going to the impartial tribunal which exists at the moment. Therefore, I have rejected that suggestion.
  There are those who have said that there should be closed courts, and the right hon. Member for Dundee, East was hinting at this suggestion this afternoon. There are countries in which this form of court exists.
  Mr. Charles Loughlin: We have courts sitting in camera.
  The Prime Minister: By any definition, a closed court is different from a court sitting in camera. However, I shall come to deal with courts sitting in camera. There are many hon. Members below the Gangway opposite who would object to that as well. However, leaving that aside, if a case is to be heard in camera, the real question is whether counsel are to be present. If they are, are they to be present in the presence of witnesses? If they are, no witnesses will believe that his identity is secure. That must be faced. If a person accused of being a member of the I.R.A. and engaged in activities of murder is represented by counsel who is then able to confront a witness, that witness will not believe that his identity and security are safe.
  Mr. Loughlin rose—
  The Prime Minister: I am dealing with a serious argument—
  Mr. Loughlin: This is a serious point. Give way.
  The Prime Minister: Part of the windup time of both the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East and myself has been lost already. I ask the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Loughlin) to do me the courtesy of listening.
  This has an important part also in trials of security questions—those who have held high office know that this has produced a problem: the confrontation of

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  witnesses and sources in the presence of counsel.
  I put this point very clearly and seriously to the right hon. Gentleman. We have thought a great deal about it to see whether it would be possible to have a form of court which one could say provided security for sources and witnesses and which at the same time was a court. I regret that neither the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East, the right hon. Member for Dundee, East, nor those advising us have found what could be called a "court". Right hon. and hon. Members opposite should remember that there is an appeal committee for internees. We are already examining the points which have been made in various articles in the Press by distinguished lawyers, and we shall examine the points made by the right hon. Member for Cardiff. South-East.
  I agree about the proposal that internees should be told formally in writing of the nature of the accusations against them. That is one which should be examined urgently, and the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland and his Government are now doing that.
  Mr. Orme: It should be done here.
  The Prime Minister: I come to the next point which makes the hon. Gentleman so excited. The fact is that the law at present under the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, and then the Special Powers Act, 1922, gives these powers to the Northern Ireland Government. They have remained so under Governments of both parties and Coalitions since that time. The Leader of the Opposition and the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East have proposed in this debate that those powers should be transferred to Westminster. Obviously I do not know what consideration they gave it when they were in office, but it is fair to say that they did not propose or make the change themselves. I am prepared to argue the matter here or in private or to consider representations about it, but it is a major change in the constitutional position of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom. Therefore, I suggest that this itself does not offer sufficient grounds for a Motion condemning the Government and for voting against the Government tonight.
  Mr. Callaghan: I am sorry to take the Prime Minister back to the question of procedure. There are two points here. Why should not the judge in charge of the case, even in the absence of counsel, examine the credibility of the accuser, which is an essential part? Secondly, is not it possible to supply counsel with a transcript of the evidence of the accuser, deleting anything identifying the accuser before it goes to counsel? Would not that be better than simply interning men without any charges being made, with no one knowing what is going on?
  The Prime Minister: I have said that we shall examine procedures for informing internees of the allegations against them. But the judge presiding over the committee to which they can appeal and which is hearing all cases is able and entitled, with the members of his committee, to test the credibility of the evidence produced about a detainee. That is the purpose of the committee to which detainees can appeal.
  If the right hon. Gentleman likes to call that a court, well and good. As far as I am concerned, it is not a court, because it does not adopt the normal procedures of British courts sitting either in public or in camera.
  Mr. McManus rose—
  The Prime Minister: I come to the point which I want to bring home to the House. It is that whatever improvements we are willing and able to make one still faces a situation which is internment—
  Mr. McManus: On a point of order—
  The Prime Minister: —and thus the saving of people's lives.
  Mr. McManus: On a point of order. This is the fourth day of debates on Northern Ireland that I have sat here hoping to be called. I have been wanting to make two important points. If the Prime Minister refuses to give way how can I make two points on what he is saying?
  Mr. Speaker: Order. That is not a point of order.
  The Prime Minister rose—
  Mr. McManus: Will the hon. Gentleman give way for two minutes?
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman spoke for over 20 minutes in the last debate.
  The Prime Minister rose—
  Mr. McManus: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way to allow me to make two points? Is he afraid to listen to two points?
  The Prime Minister: I shall not give way.
  Mr. McManus rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. There are only 10 more minutes for this debate.
  Mr. McManus: I need only 10 seconds.
  The Prime Minister: No, I shall not give way. This is the second occasion on which there has been an attempt to disrupt the Government wind-up in an Irish debate—
  Mr. McManus: Two points. Will the Prime Minister listen to two points? He is ready to conduct a symphony orchestra.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I would ask the hon. Member to resume his seat.
  The Prime Minister rose—
  Mr. McManus: Will the Prime Minister tell the House about the "No inquest" clause?
  Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member must not rise like that again.
  Mr. Eric S. Heffer: Why does the Prime Minister not give way?
  The Prime Minister: Because I have a great deal to say and my time has already been cut short.
  I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that it is not possible to implement a political solution now because discussions should be about the various means of organising that. If those in Northern Ireland had been prepared to sit round a table, as we invited them, without any conditions of any kind, then they too could be discussing and could have been discussing over the past months, solutions which could then have been put into practice directly the shooting stopped.
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  I do not share the apparent feeling of the Leader of the Opposition of disillusionment about what he and his colleagues and we have been able to achieve. I am sad that he should have said that because I believe the Downing Street Declaration in 1969 achieved a great deal. It has achieved a change in the police, in the Police Committee, it has brought about the Housing Executive, local government reform which is to be implemented, new boundaries which will benefit the Catholics and give more Catholic control of authorities, and it has produced the Ombudsman and the Commissioner for Complaints on local government. I believe that when the shooting stops these measures will then be fully appreciated.
  There is also the offer of half the chairmanships of the committees, which is far more than this House has got, and the offer of the larger House of Commons and the larger Senate as well as the discussions on proportional representation. These are all matters which are to be more readily accepted when violence is overcome. If the initiatives made by the Leader of the Opposition, as he realised, run certain risks—he says that initiatives have been swept aside—it could be that his run the risk that the objections to them will be so strongly stated in the House, as they have been, that people will take up entrenched positions. These were risks which he decided to run. We are prepared to discuss these matters with him.
  I want to make these points. The right hon. Gentleman emphasised that the 1949 Act undertaking must remain. Change, therefore, can only be by consent. Any negotiations for any arrangement of this kind between North and South must, therefore, be freely agreed and can only be arranged by consent. This means that any proposals must be wanted for their own sake. This is of great importance. From the basic premise of the Leader of the Opposition, it must follow that Northern Ireland cannot be forced into an arrangement for a United Ireland which it does not freely accept.
  If there are any who look favourably on the proposals of the Leader of the Opposition for this reason, then they have been reinforced by the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East tonight, who said that it must be agreed and the time-scale

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  also must be agreed. The Leader of the Opposition did not lay down the 15-year arrangement which has often been interpreted. My position was explained in the Guildhall speech which the right hon. Gentleman quoted. I said this to Mr. Lynch at the meeting at Chequers last September. I said "Of course it is perfectly honourable and legitimate that people in Northern Ireland should wish to have a united Ireland. All that we ask is that it should be brought about by consent."
  I said this to Mr. Lynch and Mr. Faulkner when we had the tripartite meetings. I was particularly interested in a statement by Dr. Newe when he assumed office, saying precisely this, that he had such ambitions, he had a dream of a united Ireland but he was prepared to work the system in the meantime. This is also the position in Mr. Faulkner's Green Paper. All he asks is that people should accept the position of the 1949 Act that change can only be by consent. So I took the initiative in bringing the Prime Ministers together, and this was my position. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that all that can be put in the talks. I said earlier to Mr. Lynch that there would be discussions whenever he wished it between myself and himself, as heads of sovereign Governments—not as of right; we do not claim a right as far as the Republic was concerned—because the affairs of our two countries so interact that we should agree freely to discuss these matters.
  But what some would like would be for us to say to Northern Ireland that Her Majesty's Government want, and that Northern Ireland ought to want, a united Ireland. That we cannot do, because it would be usurping the right of choice of the people of Northern Ireland. But I believe that there are some things which the Republic could do, because if there is to be change by consent the responsibility also lies on the Republic to show the North the sort of united Ireland that it itself wants, and I believe that there is here much scope for action to be taken.
  Of course, there are problems which make the proposals of the Leader of the Opposition difficult. Those problems are easily recognisable: the difference in economic status, the difference in social
  172
  arrangements, the difference in constitutional arrangements at the moment in the Republic. They all exist. Some of them, the economic ones, will take time to put right. On others, action could be taken in the Republic whenever the Republic so decided. In particular, the Republic could restore more confidence in the North by dealing with those in the Republic who we know want to bring about change not by peaceful means, which Mr. Lynch and his Government want, but by supporting violence in various spheres.
  In summing up the debate, one can say that discussion has emerged about the possibility of unity in Ireland by consent, undoubtedly taking time. There has also emerged the desire for improving the present arrangements in Stormont. We know what has been done, we know what is being proposed, and I believe that the real problem is how the minority can have still further participation in those affairs. I do not have time to go into the details of the speech of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara). I differ from him in that, having examined these things, I know that there are very few county councils or city councils today which are not run on party lines and in which, therefore, the majority does not run the organisation. The minority takes part in debate, but cannot be said actually to be the executive arm of the Council. This is the real problem that we come up against, but here is a field in which we can give real thought to making the progress which will in any case be required in the arrangements for Stormont itself.
  The Opposition Amendment regrets the Government's policies. To what do they object in the Military sphere? The Leader of the Opposition gave full credit for these military policies, and I have heard very little criticism of them today. On political intiative, we have had since the September debate Mr. Faulkner's initiative with the Green Paper, before it we had the bilateral, and since it we have had the tripartite meeting. We have had Dr. Newe's appointment to the Cabinet It is well known that Mr. Falkner wanted to bring in a member of another party, a trade unionist, who did not want to join, though not for political or personal reasons. So there has been progress in this field as well. We backed up, on

  173
  coming into office, the previous Administration's proposal for a £70 million development fund, and are now committed to another £50 million. These are all initiatives.
  So I flatly repudiate the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that in the last few months there has been nothing but drift. There have been political discussions and initiatives, and we are pursuing a policy which is in agreement with the views of the Leader of the Opposition. But there cannot be action until we are on top of the gunmen, and that we are determined to achieve.
  I deeply regret the Opposition Amendment which seeks to censure the Government, not because I am not prepared to argue on it and vote in this House whenever required, but because I do not believe that in this circumstance it can be justified by the Labour Party and I regret the impact it will have outside. It is the Opposition's responsibility, but I still deeply regret it.
  Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
  The House divided: Ayes 293, Noes 259.

  Division No. 19.]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Adley, Robert

  Crowder, F. P.

  Heseltine, Michael

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Davis, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

  Hicks, Robert

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James

  Hiley, Joseph

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Dean, Paul

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Astor, John

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Holland, Philip

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Dixon, Piers

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Awdry, Daniel

  Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

  Hordern, Peter

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Drayson, G. B.

  Hornby, Richard

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  du cann, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia

  Balniel, Lord

  Dykes, Hugh

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Batsford, Brian

  Eden, Sir John

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Bell, Ronald

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Hunt, John

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Elliot, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Farr, John

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Benyon, W.

  Fell, Anthony

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  James, David

  Biffen, John

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Fidler, Michael

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Blaker, Peter

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Jessel, Toby

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Body, Richard

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

  Boscawen, Robert

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Jopling, Michael

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Fortescue, Tim

  Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

  Bowden, Andrew

  Foster, Sir John

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Fox, Marcus

  Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine

  Braine, Bernard

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Bray, Ronald

  Fry, Peter

  Kilfedder, James

  Brewis, John

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Kimball, Marcus

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Gardner, Edward

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Gibson-Walt, David

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Kirk, Peter

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  Kitson, Timothy

  Bryan, Paul

  Goodhart, Philip

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Buck, Antony

  Goodhew, Victor

  Knox, David

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Gorst, John

  Lambton, Antony

  Burden, F. A.

  Gower, Raymond

  Lane, David

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray & Nairn)

  Gray, Hamish

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Carlisle, Mark

  Green, Alan

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Channon, Paul

  Grylls, Michael

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

  Chapman, Sydney

  Gummer, J. Selwyn

  Longden, Gilbert

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Gurden, Harold

  Loveridge, John

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Luce, R. N.

  Churchill, W. S.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  MacArthur, Ian

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Clegg, Walter

  Hannam, John, (Exeter)

  McLaren, Martin

  Cockeram, Eric

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Cooke, Robert

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  McMaster, Stanley

  Coombs, Derek

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Cooper, A. E.

  Hastings, Stephen

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Cordle, John

  Havers, Michael

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

  Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Hawkins, Paul

  Maddan, Martin

  Cormack, Patrick

  Hay, John

  Madel, David

  Costain, A. P.

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Maginnis, John E.

  Crouch, David

  Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Marten, Neil

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Mather, Carol

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

  Maude, Angus

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)

  Mawby, Ray

  Raison, Timothy

  Tebbit, Norman

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Temple, John M.

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

  Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Redmond, Robert

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Rees-Davis, W. R.

  Tilney, John

  Moate, Roger

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Molyneaux, James

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Trew, Peter

  Money, Ernie

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Monks, Mrs. Connie

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin

  Monro, Hector

  Roberts Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  More, Jasper

  Rost, Peter

  Waddington, David

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Scott, Nicholas

  Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

  Morrison, Charles

  Sharples, Richard

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Mudd, David

  Shaw Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Wall Patrick

  Murton, Oscar

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Simeons, Charles

  Warren, Kenneth

  Nicholls, Sir Harmer

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  White, Roger (Gravensend)

  Normanton, Tom

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Nott, John

  Soref, Harold

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Onslow, Cranley

  Speed, Keith

  Wilkinson, John

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Spence, John

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Sproat, Iain

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Osborn, John

  Stainton, Keith

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)

  Worsley, Marcus

  Parkinson, Cecil

  Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Percival, Ian

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Younger, Hn. George

  Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

  Stokes, John

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Sutcliffe, John

  Mr. Reginald Eyre and

  Pounder, Rafton

  Tapsell, Peter

  Mr. Bernard Weatherill.

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Cohen, Stanley

  Faulds, Andrew

  Albu, Austen

  Concannon, J. D.

  Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Conlan, Bernard

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Allen, Scholefield

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Fitt, Gerald (Belfast, W.)

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Cronin, John

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Ashley, Jack

  Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Foley, Maurice

  Ashton, Joe

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Foot, Michael

  Atkinson, Norman

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)

  Ford, Ben

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

  Forrester, John

  Barnes, Michael

  Dalyell, Tam

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

  Davidson, Arthur

  Freeson, Reginald

  Barnett, Joel (Heywood and Royton)

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Baxter, William

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Garrett, W. E.

  Beaney, Alan

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Ginsburg, David (Dewsbury)

  Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Golding, John

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Davis Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Gourlay, Harry

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove)

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Bishop, E. S.

  Deakins, Eric

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Delargy, H. J.

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Booth, Albert

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Dempsey, James

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Bradley, Tom

  Devlin, Miss Bernadette

  Hamling, William

  Broughton, Sir Alfred

  Doig, Peter

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

  Dormand, J. D.

  Hardy, Peter

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Buchan, Norman

  Driberg, Tom

  Hattersley, Roy

  Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Dunnett, Jack

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Eadie, Alex

  Horam, John

  Cant, R. B.

  Edelman, Maurice

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Carmichael, Neil

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Ellis, Tom

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  English, Michael

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Evans, Fred

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Ewing, Henry

  Hunter, Adam

  176

  177

  Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Janner, Greville

  Mendelson, John

  Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Mikardo, Ian

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.)

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Milne, Edward

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  John, Brynmor

  Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen)

  Sillars, James

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Morgan, Elysian (Cardiganshire)

  Silverman, Julius

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Small, William

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Ewlyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Moyle, Roland

  Spearing, Nigel

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Murray, Ronald King

  Stallard, A. W.

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Oakes, Gordon

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Kelley, Richard

  Ogden, Eric

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Kerr, Russell

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Strang, Gavin

  Lambie, David

  O'Malley, Brian

  Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

  Lamond, James

  Oram, Bert

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Latham, Arthur

  Orbach, Maurice

  Swain, Thomas

  Lawson, George

  Orme, Stanley

  Taverne, Dick

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Oswald, Thomas

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Leonard, Dick

  Palmer, Arthur

  Tinn, James

  Lestor, Miss Joan

  Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

  Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

  Torney, Tom

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Parker, John (Dagenham)

  Tuck, Raphael

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Urwin, T. W.

  Lipton, Marcus

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Varley, Eric G.

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Loughlin, Charles

  Pendry, Tom

  Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Pentland, Norman

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  McBride, Neil

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Wallce, George

  McCann, John

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Watkins, David

  McCartney, Hugh

  Prescott, John

  Weitzman, David

  McElhone, Frank

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Wellbeloved, James

  McGuire, Michael

  Probert, Arthur

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Rankin, John

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Mackie, John

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Rees Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  McManus, Frank

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Roberts, Albert (Norman)

  Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caervarvon)

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Marks, Kenneth

  Roper, John

  Woof, Robert

  Marsden, F.

  Rose, Paul B.

  Marshall, Dr. Edmund

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Sandelson, Neville

  Mr. Joseph Harper and

  Meacher, Michael

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Mr. James A. Dunn.

  Main Question, as amended, put:—
  The House divided: Ayes 294, Noes 260.

  Division No. 20.]

  AYES

  [10.12 p.m.

  Adley, Robert

  Braine, Bernard

  Cordie, John

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Bray, Ronald

  Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Brewis, John

  Cormack, Patrick

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Costain, A. P.

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Crouch, David

  Astor, John

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Crowder, F. P.

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

  Awdry, Daniel

  Bryan, Paul

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Buck, Anthony

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Dean, Paul

  Balniel, Lord

  Burden, F. A.

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Batsford, Brian

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Dixon, Piers

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray & Nairn)

  Douglas-Home, Rt. Hon. Sir Alec

  Bell, Ronald

  Carlisle, Mark

  Drayson, G. B.

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Channon, Paul

  Dykes, Hugh

  Benyon, W.

  Chapman, Sydney

  Eden, Sir John

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Biffen, John

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Churchill, W. S.

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

  Blaker, Peter

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Farr, John

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Fell, Anthony

  Body, Richard

  Clegg, Walter

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Boscawen, Robert

  Cockeram, Eric

  Fidler, Michael

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Cooke, Robert

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Bowden, Andrew

  Coombs, Derek

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Cooper, A. E.

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Lambton, Anthony

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Fortescue, Tim

  Lane, David

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Foster, Sir John

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Fowler, Norman

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Fox, Marcus

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Fry, Peter

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Longden, Gilbert

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  Gardner, Edward

  Loveridge, John

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Luce, R. N.

  Rost, Peter

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  MacArthur, Ian

  Scott, Nicholas

  Goodhart, Philip

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Sharples, Richard

  Goodhew, Victor

  MacLaren, Martin

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Gorst, John

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Gower, Raymond

  McMaster, Stanley

  Simeons, Charles

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Gray, Hamish

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Green, Alan

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Maddan, Martin

  Soref, Harold

  Grylls, Michael

  Madel, David

  Speed, Keith

  Gummer, J. Selwyn

  Maginnis, John E.

  Spence, John

  Gurden, Harold

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Sproat, Iain

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Marten, Neil

  Stainton, Keith

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Mather, Carol

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Maude, Angus

  Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

  Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Mawby, Ray

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Stokes, John

  Harrison, Col, Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Hasethurst, Alan

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Sutcliffe, John

  Hastings, Stephen

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Tapsell, Peter

  Havers, Michael

  Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W.)

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Hawkins, Paul

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

  Hay, John

  Moate, Roger

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Molyneaux, James

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)

  Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Money, Ernie

  Tebbit, Norman

  Heseltine, Michael

  Monks, Mrs. Connie

  Temple, John M.

  Hicks, Robert

  Monro, Hector

  Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Hiley, Joseph

  More, Jasper

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Holland, Philip

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Tilney, John

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Morrison, Charles

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Hordern, Peter

  Mudd, David

  Trew, Peter

  Hornby, Richard

  Murton, Oscar

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Normanton, Tom

  Waddington, David

  Hunt, John

  Nott, John

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Onslow, Cranley

  Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Wall, Patrick

  James, David

  Osborn, John

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Warren, Kenneth

  Jessel, Toby

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Johnson Smith. G. (E. Grinstead)

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

  Parkinson, Cecil

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Jopling, Michael

  Percival, Ian

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

  Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

  Wilkinson, John

  Karberry, Sir Donald

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Pounder, Rafton

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Kilfedder, James

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Kimball, Marcus

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Worsley, Marcus

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Younger, Hn. George

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Kirk, Peter

  Raison, Timothy

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Kitson, Timothy

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Mr. Reginald Eyre and

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

  Mr. Bernard Weatherill.

  Knox, David

  Redmond, Robert

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Atkinson, Norman

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Albu, Austen

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Barnes, Michael

  Bishop, E. S.

  Allen, Scholefield

  Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Barnett, Joel (Heywood and Royton)

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Baxter, William

  Booth, Albert

  Ashley, Jack

  Beaney, Alan

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Ashton, Joe

  Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

  Bradley, Tom

  180

  181

  Broughton, Sir Alfred

  Hardy, Peter

  Oram, Bert

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Orbach, Maurice

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Orme, Stanley

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Hattersley, Roy

  Oswald, Thomas

  Buchan, Norman

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Palmer, Arthur

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Horam, John

  Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Parker, John (Dagenham)

  Cant, R. B.

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Pendry, Tom

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Pentland, Norman

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Hunter, Adam

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Cohen, Stanley

  Janner, Greville

  Prescott, John

  Concannon, J. D.

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Conlan, Bernard

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Probert, Arthur

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Rankin, John

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  John, Brynmor

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Cronin, John

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Richard, Ivor

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Dalyell, Tam

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Davidson, Arthur

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Roper, John

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Kelley, Richard

  Rose, Paul B.

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Kerr, Russell

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Lambie, David

  Sandelson, Neville

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Lamond, James

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Latham, Arthur

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove)

  Lawson, George

  Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

  Deakins, Eric

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.)

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

  Delargy, H. J.

  Leonard, Dick

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Lestor, Miss Joan

  Sillars, James

  Dempsey, James

  Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

  Silverman, Julius

  Devlin, Miss Bernadelle

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Doig, Peter

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Small, William

  Dormand, J. D.

  Lipton, Marcus

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Spearing, Nigel

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Loughlin, Charles

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Driberg, Tom

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Stallard, A. W.

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  McBride, Neil

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Dunnett, Jack

  McCann, John

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Eadie, Alex

  McCartney, Hugh

  Strang, Gavin

  Edelman, Maurice

  McElhone, Frank

  Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  McGuire, Michael

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Swain, Thomas

  Ellis, Tom

  Mackie, John

  Taverne, Dick

  English, Michael

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Evans, Fred

  McManus, Frank

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Ewing, Henry

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Tinn, James

  Faulds, Andrew

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Torney, Tom

  Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Tuck, Raphael

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Urwin, T. W.

  Fitt, Gerard (Belfast, W.)

  Marks, Kenneth

  Varley, Eric G.

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Marsden, F.

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Marshall, Dr. Edmund

  Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

  Foley, Maurice

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Foot, Michael

  Meacher, Michael

  Wallace, George

  Ford, Ben

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Watkins, David

  Forrester, John

  Mendelson, John

  Weitzman, David

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Wellbeloved, James

  Freeson, Reginald

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Milne, Edward

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Garrett, W. E.

  Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen)

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Ginsburg, David (Dewsbury)

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Golding, John

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Gourlay, Harry

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  Moyle, Roland

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Murray, Ronald King

  Woof, Robert

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Oakes, Gordon

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Ogden, Eric

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Hamling, William

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Mr. Joseph Harper and

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  O'Malley, Brian

  Mr. James A. Dunn.

  Resolved,
  That this House pays tribute to the courage and resolution of Her Majesty's Forces and supports Her Majesty's Government in the combined policies of putting an end to violence and seeking, through discussion with all concerned who are opposed to the use of violence, means whereby there may be for both communities in Northern Ireland an active, guaranteed and permanent rôle in the public affairs of the Province.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Ordered,
  That at this day's Sitting the New Towns Bill may be proceeded with, though opposed,
  184
  until any hour; and that the Motions relating to Education and Education (Scotland) may be proceeded with, though opposed, until half-past Eleven o'clock.—[Mr. Hawkins.]

  NEW TOWNS BILL
  Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  Motion made, and Question, That the Bill be now read the Third time, put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 56 (Third Reading), and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.
  10.23 p.m.
  Miss Joan Lestor: I beg to move,
  That the Provision of Milk and Meals (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 1971 (S.I. 1971, No. 1368), a copy of which was laid before this House on 25th August, in the last Session of Parliament, be withdrawn.
  In opposing these regulations, I remind the House—and hon. Members opposite in particular—that when the increase in the price of school meals was announced, together with the withdrawal of free milk in primary schools for children over the age of 7, we argued continuously that this would result in a deficiency in the diet of our children as there would be a drop in the take-up of school meals because many parents would not be able to afford the new price. Time and again this was denied by hon. Members opposite. In particular, we were told that new facilities would be made available, as outlined in these regulations, in order to make it easier for people who were called "poor" by hon. Members opposite to take advantage of free school meals.
  We know now that our forecast was right. According to the latest figures, in November, 1970, the percentage of all school children taking school meals was 67·5, while a year later it had dropped to 59·4. What is alarming about that drop is that we were told that the take-up would increase in the autumn, but this has not taken place to anything like the extent forecast by hon. Members opposite. But within that drop in the number of school meals taken overall, there has been a dramatic rise in the take-up of free school meals—from 575,000 in 1970 to 733,000 in 1971.
  This is not something on which the Government should be congratulated, since the tragedy behind the fact that more and more children are taking free school meals is that unemployment has meant, with the lowering of their parent's income, that more and more are now qualifying for them. The Under-Secretary of State went to great lengths to point out, when the legislation was going through the House, that he would like to see all sorts of measures taken in order to avoid humiliation to children who would be making application and be taking advantage of free school meals. To my

  SCHOOL MILK AND MEALS
  knowledge and belief, no concerted effort has been made by the Government, by the hon. Gentleman in particular and by hon. Members opposite to pursue this line of argument. The right hon Lady the Secretary of State has said that the increase in the number of free school meals was to some extent caused by the increase in unemployment.
  The fact is that the Government have been determined to try to identify the "poor" and to rub in to many children that if they are poor they are entitled to free school meals. Large numbers of children are not taking up school meals, either by paying for them or even when they are free, because of the humiliation and other things involved.
  What worries us considerably is that as the charge for the school meals must cover the running cost, as was indicated in the White Paper on public spending presented in October last year, this will again mean a substantial increase in the price to cover rising runnings costs. If that is true, we can again expect to see a reduction in the number of children not eligible for free school meals but unable to afford the new increase in the price.
  In the regulations, the financial hardship qualifications are very complicated. One would have thought that by now the Government would have realised that means-tested benefits of this nature are destined to be a failure. Recently the Secretary of State for Social Services announced that the take-up of the family income supplement was only 43 per cent. of those heads of household entitled to it. If that is so, the argument by hon. Members opposite that children whose parents get the family income supplement also get an automatic passport to free school meals must be considered in the context that well over one-half of the children concerned come from families who are not receiving the supplement and are not, therefore, receiving their passports to free school meals. That alone must make us all very unhappy about the situation of the take-up of free school meals.
  As I have said over and over again, in Committee and on Second Reading, it is about time that we got down to discussing the availability of school meals without the payment of money at the time

  187
  of consumption. Unless this can be done, we shall never get away from the difficulties, the humiliation and the identification with poverty. When people have to identify their poverty by reason of family income supplement or prescription charges, many people who are eligible do not take advantage of that to which they are entitled.
  I wish to couple the question of free school meals with the withdrawal of school milk. When the matter first arose, Dr. Lynch's survey on nutrition, which caused a great deal of concern among teachers and educationists, was rejected by hon. Members opposite on the ground that it was inconclusive and did not represent a true picture of the dietary problems of children. Also dismissed were the views of the dental profession and the fears of the medical officers of health in London, who expressed their concern at this new category of medical need for free milk. Their fears have been echoed by many practitioners in Westminster City Council, who have asked local authorities to defy the milk ban on health grounds. They have also been joined by Professor Borge Nordin, head of the Mineral Research Unit at Leeds Infirmary, who has said that he is worried by the withdrawal of school milk if that is the only milk available to children. He has particularly asked medical officers of health and others to look out for the effects of calcium deficiency. That is also one of the fears expressed in Dr. Lynch's survey.
  Large numbers of children will go to school without breakfast and receive nothing during the morning to sustain them, and, in addition, they will probably not have a hot meal in the middle of the day. Most industrial, office and transport workers receive nutrition of some sort at about 10 or 11 a.m.
  Mr. Peter Rost rose—
  Miss Lestor: I am sorry; I cannot give way now. I promised to be brief.
  The subject of the supply of milk in schools was ventilated in answers to Questions two weeks ago. The Secretary of State for Education and Science said that
  188
  she could not understand why people could not pay for milk, as she had to do. The fact is that, despite what was said in the Committee stage of the Bill, the proposal that milk should be available for purchase in schools has not materialised. So far 30 local authorities have indicated that they will make milk available to be bought in schools. What is happening? When the Government first came into office they talked about the freedom of local authorities. We know what they have said to Merthyr Tydvil, which is anxious to continue with its freedom to supply milk to primary school children. Midlothian has been told that it will be surcharged unless it withdraws the facilities which it has made available. This also applies to Glasgow. On the other hand, we have the administrative muddle which makes it possible for the 10 inner London boroughs to spend a 1p rate on the supply of milk to their children, and do so legally because they are not education authorities.
  This whole question of milk and meals—and milk in particular—would be laughable were it not tragic. The Government talk of freedom for local authorities, but they stop those which they can stop from doing what they think necessary and beneficial for their children, but, because of a legal loophole, they have no control over the London boroughs which intend to supply milk.
  Contrary to the Government's argument underlying the regulations, poverty will continue in this country, and added to it there will be the humiliation for those who are identified as poor. We utterly reject this philosophy. We reject the philosophy which says, on the one hand, that we can afford to give £2 million to direct grant schools and we can afford to give tax reductions to benefit the rich, but we cannot afford to give free school milk to children in primary schools and we cannot afford to ensure that children in need of a decent school meal will have it. Many of them cannot afford to pay for it, or are too embarrassed to take advantage of the free school meal.
  Our opposition to the regulations is backed by informed opinion, not necessarily informed Labour opinion but informed opinion among educationists

  189
  and medical and dental practitioners throughout the country. These measures are a disgrace to the House. Moreover, they will save nothing in the end in terms of money, though they will cost us a great deal in terms of the health of our children. At the end of the day, we shall probably be spending much more on replacing that which children should have had at this time of their lives.
  In conclusion, may I ask, Mr. Deputy Speaker, whether both the English and the Scottish Motions are being taken together?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): I was about to ask whether the House would agree to take the two Prayers together. I take it that that is agreed. We shall, accordingly, consider at the same time the Motion:
  That the Milk and Meals (Education) (Scotland) Regulations 1971 (S.I., 1971, No. 1537), a copy of which was laid before this House on 27th September, in the last Session of Parliament, be withdrawn.
  10.38 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. William van Straubenzee): As both Prayers are being taken together, it may be convenient if I intervene briefly now, not in any way to curtail discussion, and that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland should seek to catch your eye later, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to wind up and deal with specific Scottish questions.
  As did the hon. Lady the Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor), I appreciate that we have limited time, and as it is clear that a number of hon. Members wish to take part, I hope that I shall be acquitted of discourtesy if I deal briskly with the argument and leave as much time as I can for the debate.
  First, a word about what is in the regulations. Understandably, the hon. Lady concentrated on those items with which she disagreed, but it is fair that I should say in reply that the income scale against which entitlement to free school meals is measured is increased by the regulations. Also, an entire category of beneficiary—that is, the family in receipt of family income supplement—will no longer, as a result of the regulations, need to undergo a separate assessment of means. There are other adjustments to the free school meals
  190
  assessment rules which the House will see set out very fully. They may appear minor in character, but they are, in fact, very significant for the individual families affected.
  I want, therefore, first to deal, as the hon. Lady did, with the criticisms about that part of the regulations dealing with milk. She takes the view that the arrangements epitomised in the regulations are a deliberate and direct attack on the nutritional and health standards of our older primary school children. That I totally reject. They are no more an attack on the health of such children than was the decision of the Labour Government to withdraw free milk from secondary school pupils. Indeed, it is possible to show that they are positively less so, because they contain steps to continue the free supply for children who need it on health grounds.
  We make it possible for milk to be sold to other children, and, although, frankly, we do not believe that the health or nutrition of the pupils concerned will be injuriously affected by the new arrangements, we have nevertheless, and I think rightly, set up a monitoring system whereby any effects which arise may be identified at the earliest possible stage. None of this was done when in 1968 it was decided to discontinue the free supply to all secondary school pupils, who, after all, included a considerable number of the age of 10 and a great many more of the ages of 11 and 12.
  My second point is that I do not accept the hon. Lady's criticism that the arrangements for the certification of pupils for milk on health grounds are not working well just because school medical officers of health have had no guidance from the centre, from the Government as such, on the criteria which they should adopt. It is perfectly true that in some areas only a small proportion of children are getting milk, but we are at the very early stages. Examinations are continuing, and in so far as children require milk on health grounds the regulations should secure that they will get it.
  It is true that there have been some teething troubles in the initial stages. There are bound to be in any new scheme of this kind. But it might be worth reflecting, particularly before the

  191
  right hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central (Mr. Edward Short), the former Secretary of State, looks too pleased about this, that if in 1968 there had been a similar arrangement for certification on medical grounds for secondary school pupils' milk we might have had rather more experience on which to work.
  There is no question of rejecting Dr. Lynch's survey. If Dr. Lynch will produce his written survey, it will be most carefully studied, I assure the hon. Lady. I have told her this several times before, if she has influence with Dr. Lynch—and it is double figure months since he made his preliminary statement—and will see that he produces his survey, it can be considered. One cannot reject something which has not yet been produced.
  The hon. Lady's third criticism was that not enough local education authorities were selling milk on a large scale. Here I join with her; I do not think that enough are yet doing so. Hon. Members who are interested may enjoy seeing an excellent little pamphlet recently produced by the Milk Marketing Board. It is extremely useful for hon. Members who are anxious that milk should be sold more widely; it gives a good account of the various facilities available, cost and so on.
  There is reason to believe that since the census more authorities have decided that milk may be sold in their schools, and I have no doubt that more will do so if, as the hon. Lady hopes, sufficient demand develops. But if in 1968 when milk was withdrawn from secondary schools there had been a perfectly simple power given by the Labour Party to sell milk in the same way as it was possible to sell almost every other non-alcoholic beverage, by this time we might have had experience of the sale of milk in secondary schools, and it would probably have been a regular thing. I leave over for the moment the monitoring procedure—
  Mr. Ernest Armstrong: In the Northern Region almost 50 per cent. of children are getting free school meals because they cannot afford to buy them. Will the hon. Gentleman say how arrangements to sell milk will help children who cannot afford it?
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I know of the hon. Gentleman's close concern in these matters. If he studies the pamphlet to which I have referred, it may come as a surprise to him to see what can be achieved and the costs at which it can be produced. There is good evidence to believe that a very considerable number of parents, including a number of those whom the hon. Gentleman has in mind, would be glad to have the facility available in their children's schools.
  I turn, then, to school meals, with which these regulations also deals. The regulations mean that more families are brought within the scope of the free school meal scheme. It might be helpful to give the House the up-to-date figures, based on returns from 160 authorities out of 163. They are more up to date than those given a few days ago by my right hon. Friend. I make that point clear in order to take account of any discrepancy.
  At the autumn census, 795,000 children, representing 10·4 per cent. of those present at schools in England and Wales, were getting free school meals. That compares with a figure last May of 754,000, or 9·9 per cent., and in the autumn of 1970 620,000, or 8·3 per cent.—
  Mr. Norman Buchan: Due to unemployment.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I concede immediately that regrettably there is an element in those increased figures which is due to unemployment. I do not attempt to deny that. But the increased income and remission scales demonstrably give help to those who really need it and whose children ought properly to have free school meals. If the hon. Gentleman examines the percentage increases, he will find that the increase in the free school meal take-up is markedly greater than can possibly be accounted for by the unemployment figures.
  One can give a considerable number of examples. A family with one child is entitled under these new scales to free school meals where the net income is below £13·25 a week, compared with £11·95 previously or £11·05 earlier this year, and I am talking about net income when I quote from the regulations.

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  The second main change is that, by these regulations, we bring into entitlement, without separate assessment of means, families in receipt of family income supplement. This arrangement was limited formerly to those in receipt of supplementary benefit. It means that some 85,000 low income families will be able to claim free meals for their children without having to go through a means test for the purpose.
  I do not seek to give any impression that these families are eligible for free school meals for the first time. There is a strong possibility that nearly all of them were previously eligible on income grounds. I am not seeking to claim more for these regulations than can demonstrably be sustained. I am saying that the simplification of the procedure brought about by the regulations cannot but encourage any family who may previously have been eligible but did not take advantage of that eligibility because of the necessity of declaring their means. To this extent I hope, and I thought that this was common ground, that the House will welcome this arrangement.
  Mr. J. D. Dormand: The hon. Gentleman said that he would deal with a point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor). He has omitted—I suspect deliberately—to refer to the point of freedom for local authorities. It is something about which many on this side have asked previously and we have not had an answer. The Government said during the General Election and in their election campaign, and many times in this House since, that it was of crucial importance that local authorities should have freedom. I would have thought that the provision of school milk for primary school children was one of the most important functions on which authorities should have freedom. Could we have a clear and unequivocal answer why it has not been given in this case?
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman and delighted to oblige him. The answer is that under any Government central heads of expenditure have to be the concern of the Government and it is within those central heads that the freedom is given, as I will illustrate. It must be the duty of the Government to be in control, for example, of central capital expendi-
  194
  ture but it is possible, either as the Labour Party did, to make all the decisions at the centre, or as the Conservative Party has now done, to give them to the circumference. It is equally possible in a youth service to keep central decisions on spending at the centre but to give the disposal function to the circumference. That is the essential difference which I thought I had explained before. I suspect that the hon. Gentleman is far too intelligent not to have comprehended it earlier.
  I must not take up more time except to remind the House that this is a Prayer being raised by those who were responsible in their time for the largest percentage increase in school meal charges that we have yet known. It is the party which abolished, rightly, free school meals for the fourth and subsequent child on the ground that it was an indiscriminate subsidy going to all irrespective of need. If hon. Members opposite applied exactly the same philosophy now as they applied when in Government they would be proud of these regulations.
  10.54 p.m.
  Mr. Alex Eadie: I and some of my hon. Friends would like to protest at the outset that the Secretary of State for Education and Science and the Secretary of State for Scotland are not here. I say that without intending any discourtesy to the hon. Gentlemen who are deputising for them on the Front Bench.
  Perhaps this debate is a little more realistic than the last one we had on school milk. We had a debate recently on unemployment when the Secretary of State for Scotland had the temerity to announce that he would threaten 25 councillors in Midlothian with the surcharge because they had decided that they would continue to provide milk to the under-7s. This is a disgraceful state of affairs.
  The Government are not even arguing logically. They are proposing to give priority to the primary education sector: yet they are depriving the over-7s of school milk. We have a Gilbertian situation in Midlothian. The councillors who have been threatened will be regarded by many as having violated the law, but petitions are being organised

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  all over the county and one can rarely find a member of the Midlothian electorate refusing to back the stand taken by the councillors. It was rather heavy handed of the Secretary of State to issue that threatening circular. Only those 25 votes may have been cast, but every councillor took exception to the over-7s being deprived of their free school milk. The only argument was about the way to challenge the Government's action.
  These 25 councillors are honest, law-abiding people. Some of them are housewives. I do not know what attitude they will adopt at tomorrow's special meeting of the education committee. I only know what they have told me, because I do not believe in leading from behind and I have asked them what they think. They have told me that they are prepared to go to prison, if necessary, in order to ensure that these children get their school milk. Yet we have the Government threatening honest, decent people in this way. I do not know what steps the Government will take, but I can tell the Minister now that house ownerships are being transferred from husband to wife as a protection against sequestration of property or seizure of chattels.
  What a silly situation we now have. We are proposing to deprive the over-7s of their school milk; yet in the immediate area of the Lothians we may lose a thousand jobs before the end of the year. We have unemployment escalating, and to try to solve that problem the Government seek to rob the bairns of their milk. The whole position in Scotland is absurd. We have only three vacancies for every 100 people unemployed. It is all very well to talk about the medical officers being able to certify, but even young children have their pride—as great a pride as any in the country. They are reared by their parents to have dignity and a pride in their county.
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite may not realise it, but the Conservative Government have already been punished for their action. In the recent by-election at Stirling and Falkirk Burghs, the Conservative candidate said publicly in a debate at which the churches were represented that perhaps school milk was not a nutritional necessity; that there was a problem of child
  196
  obesity. The logic of another of his remarks was that only the rich should have children. That caused a great furore. But what happened at the polls? The Conservative vote slumped from 15,000 to 4,000. The Conservative candidate nearly lost his deposit. That is the political prospect for hon. Members opposite.
  I believe that the Government have been punished at the polls. I do not know what the attitude of the Midlothian Education Committee will be, but the people there have a conscience, they have principles and they have integrity. We have heard a lot during the last two or three months about conscience, principle and integrity. I hope that the Government will respect those virtues in Midlothian.
  According to the standing orders, a two-thirds' majority will be required at the council meeting. I do not know what the councillors will decide, but there is a proposition before the Government tonight. The Government should swallow their pride. They have been whacked by the electors at the by-election to which I have referred. They should cut the throat of this mean, stupid and callous proposal before the House.
  There is a saying in Scotland which, translated into English, is that it is better to tangle with the devil than to injure some of our Scottish bairns. I wonder who the devils are in this proposition. I warn them that the Scottish people are not prepared to go back to seeing their children suffering from malnutrition and rickets. We shall demonstrate to the people of Scotland, England and Wales that we are not prepared to tolerate the despicable proposition put to the House this evening.
  11.1 p.m.
  Dr. Tom Stuttaford: There has been some doubt in my mind about the political wisdom of our school milk and meal measures, and my doubt has been reinforced over the last few months. It is not as a politician that I speak, but more as a doctor.
  I think that if the political claptrap of the speech of the hon. Lady the Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor) were taken out, one would detect good medical sense in what she said, and we must admit that.
  Mr. S. O. Davies: The hon. Gentleman ought to be ashamed of himself.
  Dr. Stuttaford: The medical evidence is beginning to show that the influence of milk and food, particularly the high protein and mineral content of food supplied in school meals, is of lasting importance to school children in the primary school age. There can be no doubt that if a child gets a poor start in life he will never catch up. Children born on the borderline of poverty, the borderline of social deprivation, have a handicap. They have a handicap in their initial birth weight and therefore probably intellectually all their lives, due to the malnutrition with which they are born, and it seems absurd to do anything to accentuate that malnutrition as they grow older.
  Does the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil (Mr. S. O. Davies) agree with me now?
  Mr. S. O. Davies: Yes.
  Dr. Stuttaford: I am so glad.
  It is as if one were to take the best horse in the race and put on it the lightest weight, and take the worst runner and put on it the heaviest weight. That is what we are doing when children are born into poverty, are born with disadvantages, and then we feed them badly, because at this level of society of socioeconomic groups, 3, 4 and 5, there is still poverty, however hard we try to remove it. There is poverty because there is poor management. Poor management can occur in any social group. It occurs more often in this group, and we have a duty to protect these children.
  It is no argument to say that a mother is responsible for her own child, that it is up to the mother to see that the child is fed, because we cannot penalise the mother by surrounding her with physically dwarfed and intellectually stunted children, as may happen if children are not fed properly when they are young.
  The amount of evidence that we can collect to prove this is limited, but if we look to the mammalian kingdom, we realise that if the young are starved, however well they are fed later in life, they never catch up. It is not only physically that they do not catch up. They do not catch up intellectually either. I would
  198
  point out to the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil, who does not care for my accent, that, when my parents were kind enough to spend large sums of money educating me at various educational institutions, they only put a veneer on a cast. What counts is not the accent but the fact that one has been born in better surroundings, has been fed in better surroundings when one was younger, and has been intellectually stimulated when one was younger.
  If we are to have a competitive society we must see that everyone starts equal in the competition. It is these measures which are depriving people of the benefit of starting equal in the competition of life.
  Mr. Lewes Carter-Jones: I have had a reply from the Minister which says that the adverse effects will be detected and can be reversed. I understand the hon. Gentleman now to be saying that the effect of being deprived of milk is irreversible. Will he please repeat that?
  Dr. Stuttaford: I said that the effect of being under-nourished in childhood was irreversible, if we behaved in the same way as the animal kingdom. There is every likelihood that we do, but a controlled experiment is impossible, because no one will volunteer to have his children starved to see how they behave in later life. But if we behave like other mammals, this is so.
  We must also reflect the idea of seeing how the children will do after six months, or after a year or two. This, too, is nonsense. We shall not know how the children are doing for 10, 12 or 20 years. There is one medical theory that the ill-effects of milk or mineral deficiency in early childhood will not be seen until the children grow up and even reach old age, when they might be prone to a group of diseases which they might otherwise have avoided. It is no answer to say that we shall keep an eye on it. There is no time: we cannot predict what will happen in 15 or 20 years.
  Finally, if we must save money on the education bill, we are saving it at the wrong end. We are probably wasting money by keeping the non-academic at school for an extra year. We should allow them to leave if they are totally

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  non-academic, because that last year will do them nothing but damage. Let us spend that money on giving these children an equal chance of competing in the educational world. If we must save money at all, it should be at the older age groups. At the younger end, we should not save one penny, whether on food or on education or whatever it will take to make those children into reasonable citizens in future, thereby eventually saving money.
  11.8 p.m.
  Mr. Fred Evans: The resistance to this Bill began in this House when I set down an Early Day Motion condemning the Government's action in very strong terms, outlining some of the policies of the Merthyr Tydvil education department and calling on all local authorities in the country to support it.
  It is a matter for derision to us on this side that the right hon. Lady the Secretary of State for Education and Science saw fit, during Report stage of the Bill, to sit there and leave it to the Under-Secretary to make all the argument and answer all the questions. It is still more derisory for her to walk in now, at the tail end of this debate, to hear the winding-up.
  If the right hon. Lady can give £2 million to direct-grant schools to reduce fees, and then claim that she will save £9 million on milk for children between seven and 11—on Report we proved to the satisfaction of most people that it would not be £9 million but a much smaller sum—the whole process is exposed. As was pointed out in last Saturday's New Statesman, the right hon. Lady can go to Bloxham, which was struck off the Headmasters' Conference list because of inadequate academic standards and is now to be restored. That is the reactionary place she chooses to visit.
  I want to outline what will happen. There are those who adopt a code of morality about the deprivation of children. It is true that many of us disagreed with the withdrawal of milk from secondary school children, but we know that we were facing an economic crisis and that—wrongly in my opinion and that of many others—the decision was made that sacrifices should be made across the
  200
  board. But here is a party which has inherited the biggest balance of payments surplus this century. In spite of that, it cannot retreat from the dogmatic attitude that in order to feed money into the already wealthy sector of our economy, even younger children must be made to give up milk.
  There are people who take up a moral attitude to this. It was always the hope and intention that these facilities should be restored when the economy improved, and if the Labour Party had been returned to power the balance of payments would have been spent to improve benefits for the unemployed, already too large in number in the opinion of many of us, under our Government.
  This kind of action has convinced many people in our country that we are at least seeing a return to the classic Toryism of the 'twenties and 'thirties and the disappearance of the slightly more liberal attitude of the 'fifties and early 'sixties.
  The moral attitude is so strong in my country of Wales because this Government saw fit to call the councillors of Merthyr Tydvil in front of them and do a finger wagging exercise, saying, "If you do not abandon this, you will be liable to surcharge for the cost of milk, out of your own pockets, and you run the risk of being disqualified from eligibility to stand for local government for five years. If you do not pay the surcharge, you are in danger of going to prison".
  I have been on the telephone tonight and learned that tonight the Merthyr Tydvil Trades and Labour Council has met and said, "We commend our council and councillors for their resistance to this reactionary approach" and have condemned the pressures which the hirelings of the Secretary of State for Wales has seen fit to put on them. They have also said that we should adhere to our tradition, set in 1932, when school fees were introduced into grammar schools and we said that we would not do that in Merthyr Tydvil—and won. This is not the local council, but the Trades and Labour Council, which represents the overwhelming majority of the population in Merthyr. Its members have passed a vote of commendation for the local council.
  There was an attempt to introduce a negative resolution by one or two to

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  say that they should obey the Secretary of State and charge for supplies of school milk—
  Mr. Michael Roberts: Is the hon. Member seriously suggesting that it is the Trades and Labour Council in Merthyr which represents the people of Merthyr and not the Merthyr Council?
  Mr. Evans: I think I know Merthyr rather better than does the hon. Gentleman, and my hon. Friend who represents Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. S. O. Davies) is in his place. A negative resolution to obey the mandate of the Secretary of State was defeated by four-and-a-half to one, which means that the signal is plain.
  I take it that the members of the Government are men and women of wisdom. If so, they should be aware from what they saw last Wednesday of the mood they are inducing in the British people. The ordinary people, who ask only to live decent lives in dignity, are suffering a savage onslaught on their standard of living. It is clear that they will resist with increasing strength, especially when they see their children being attacked in this way. Hon. Gentlemen opposite are making it all the more certain that judgement will fall on them, and when it falls they should beware lest their efforts result in it being a very condign judgment indeed.
  11.16 p.m.
  Mr. Richard Hornby: My hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, South (Dr. Stuttaford) said he was speaking as a doctor rather than as a politician. There is nothing in these regulations that should worry him as a doctor. [Interruption.] The milk is there for children under seven, and if he and his colleagues in the medical profession are prepared to make the necessary provision, the meals are there, too.
  It is natural for each profession to pipe its own corner when a matter of Government policy affecting it arises. Many corners are bound to be piped as policies are produced, and it is up to the Government of the day to decide which final steps to take. It is perfectly in order to say that milk and hot meals are good for children, but both are available under these provisions—[Interruption.]—both in England and Wales, so that the hon. Member for Caerphilly
  202
  (Mr. Fred Evans) need not get too emotional about it.
  These instruments merely say that within the total context of the education budget, we must make a number of choices, and that within those choices in an expanding budget, which is what we are getting on all these services, it is sensible to say that these regulations are necessary to enable us to make added contributions to the primary school building programme, the expansion of further education and so on. It would be wise for us to concentrate on that aspect and to recognise that my right hon. Friend is looking at the true priorities. Opportunities to help children lie within these provisions. I urge hon. Gentlemen opposite not to try to make too much political capital out of this wholly sensible Measure.
  11.18 p.m.
  Mr. Norman Buchan: With friends like hon. Gentlemen opposite, does the Secretary of State need enemies? It is clear, for example, that the hon. Member for Tonbridge (Mr. Hornby) understands neither the argument nor the facts. For his benefit, and for that of hon. Gentlemen opposite generally, I will spell them out. There is no hardship exemption in this milk Measure. There is no free milk on the basis of poverty. This Government have been more reactionary than most past Tory Governments.
  The hon. Member for Tonbridge must not fall into the trap—which even the Secretary of State has avoided—of saying that this is all being done to increase the primary school building programme. We keep hearing that argument from this Government. One would imagine that one saving on one item can finance the whole of the Western world. Even the Secretary of State has not used that argument on this occasion.
  Let us be clear on another point. We are not talking about the nutritional value of milk. That is accepted. Nor about whether it should be available in the schools. That is accepted. The right hon. Lady continues with the argument about how it should be paid for.
  This paltry saving of £9 million was in order to give tax cuts to the rich. It cannot even be on the principle of saving public expenditure. I agree that

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  it was introduced in the first flush of euphoria about saving public expenditure, but the shadows have caught up with hon. Gentlemen opposite since then. Last week we saw a scrambling to spend more money as a factor of dealing with unemployment. We had two big deputations last week, and we got an extra £180 million of public expenditure as a result. Even that point has gone. The Government are left with nothing but their shame. This saving was in order to give tax cuts to the rich, and hon. Gentlemen opposite need not take that only from me; they can take it from the people who know. On 18th June an article in the Teacher said:
  "Mrs. Thatcher herself gave the lie to her own argument when she explained why she was not prepared to allow some local authorities to continue to supply free milk and pay for it out of the rates. She said that rates and taxes were equally public money and that one of the aims of the Bill was to reduce public expenditure. This is as clear an indication as could be wished that the decision to stop the milk had nothing to do with the desire to improve primary school buildings."
  Because of course the £9 million saved is exactly half of the amount that was given to the wealthy by the measure of disaggregation of the children's and the parents' incomes in order to go directly to pay for school fees.
  Twice the amount of £9 million for the milk was given to pay for school fees for the wealthy. That happened in the same set of measures. It is a most shameful day for right hon. and hon. Members opposite. It is made even more shameful when Members from Wales and Scotland, areas hit by the Government's policies, have to come here to defend their local councils against the Government's meanness and vindictiveness.
  Taking another comparison, of total school meals and milk together, the saving is £38 million. That figure is very significant. It is almost exactly the same as was given away to those with higher earned incomes of over £4,000 per year—handed over to the wealthy in that form.
  Mr. Rost: Rubbish. What about school building?
  Mr. Buchan: That is what has been saved on school meals and milk. Those are the priorities of hon. Gentlemen opposite, including the hon. Member who has interrupted from a sedentary
  204
  position. We have dealt with school building. Hon. Gentlemen opposite know that argument is nonsense.
  Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Buchan: If I give way now, I shall not give way to the Front Bench.
  Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles: Is not the hon. Gentleman insulting every parent in the land if he suggests that they would prefer a few pennyworth of school milk free every week rather than have the outmoded primary schools rebuilt?
  Mr. Buchan: That has already been dealt with by the right hon. Lady.
  Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles: The hon. Gentleman did not deal with it.
  Mr. Buchan: That has nothing to do with it. In any case what the right hon. Lady said about this theory of hypothecation, that one saves specifically in one form and raises taxes to go towards primary school building, was that this was an argument that one runs when one has nothing else to say. That is what the hon. and gallant Gentleman has supported because that is what his right hon. Friend has said.
  I look at some of the practical effects of this matter. We have been told that this is an element of generosity—I wish that I had realised that the right hon. Lady was present, because I might then have used more adjectives—because there is an extension of free meals. I am glad to have it recognised for the first time by the hon. Gentleman that what we have been hearing that the family income scale was allowing more children to receive free dinners—is not true, and that most children receiving free dinners under the F.I.S. were already receiving them for reasons of poverty. So there is no increase there. Therefore, when there has been a change upwards in the income, perhaps catching up with the inflationary policies of hon. Gentlemen opposite, it comes nowhere near dealing with the figures we have.
  We find that the proportion of meals that were given free in Scotland in 1970 was 25 per cent. The proportion given free in Scotland in 1971 was 37 per cent. In other words there has been a 50 per cent. increase in the proportion of free

  205
  meals in Scotland. That is an indictment of the Government's policy. It is a factor of poverty and nothing else.
  I would have left the Under-Secretary of State a moment to reply had not two hon. Gentlemen opposite taken up the time we had hoped to divide between us. I gave the hon. and nautical Gentleman the Member for Winchester (Rear Admiral Morgan-Giles) the opportunity of giving either his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State or himself the chance to speak. I will leave a minute for the answer.
  The Secretary of State for Scotland told us on 18th November:
  "Milk can be provided on preventive grounds on a medical decision. It is not necessary for all children over seven to be inspected."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th November, 1971; Vol. 826, c. 766.]
  Along with that statement, I received a letter from the right hon. Lady and I now want to put a simple and specific point. Is it not now the position that any medical officer of health who believes, like the 100 general practitioners of Westminster, that milk has dietary value from the preventative point of view can give a certificate for free milk on preventive grounds? Could not every single child in Scotland, England and Wales be given such a certificate on these grounds?
  The Government say that they refused to give guidance to medical officers of health, but that is not true. In their circulars they set out certain elements
  of guidance, and they have now given me the further guidance that preventive grounds are permissible. Is it not therefore the case that every single medical officer of health could, if he wished, without challenge from the Government, prescribe free milk for every single child? I want an answer tonight.
  The disgraceful behaviour of the Government in surcharging those local authorities trying to do no more than exercise the freedom which the Conservative Party election manifesto promised to give, is being rejected by the people not only in Wales but in Scotland. The Secretary of State for Scotland is becoming known north of the Border as "Thatcher's poodle".
  11.28 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Education, Scottish Office (Mr. Hector Monro): The time left to answer this debate is quite ridiculous in relation to the importance of the subject. The Opposition tabled a Prayer on a subject which is important to the Government and to themselves but they have left no time for a reply. But the condensation—
  Mr. Walter Harrison rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
  Question put, That the Question be now put:—
  The House divided: Ayes, 254, Noes, 265.

  Division No. 21.]

  AYES

  [11.30 p.m.

  Abse, Leo

  Cant, R. B.

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Albu, Austen

  Carmichael, Neil

  Delargy, H. J.

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Dempsey, James

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Devlin, Miss Bernadette

  Ashton, Joe

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Doig, Peter

  Atkinson, Norman

  Cohen, Stanley

  Dormand, J. D.

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Concannon, J. D.

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Barnes, Michael

  Conlan, Bernard

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Barrett, Guy (Greenwich)

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Driberg, Tom

  Barnett, Joel (Heywood and Royton)

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Dunn, James A.

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Cronin, John

  Dunnett, Jack

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Eadie, Alex

  Bishop, E. S.

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Edelman, Maurice

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Booth, Albert

  Dalyell, Tam

  Ellis, Tom

  Bradley, Tom

  Davidson, Arthur

  English, Michael

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Evans, Fred

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Ewing, Harry

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Faulds, Andrew

  Buchan, Norman

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)

  Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove)

  Fitt, Gerard (Belfast, W.)

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Deakins, Eric

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Foley, Maurice

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Foot, Michael

  Loughlin, Charles

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Ford, Ben

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Forrester, John

  McBride, Neil

  Roper, John

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  McCann, John

  Rose, Paul B.

  Freeson, Reginald

  McCartney, Hugh

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  McElhone, Frank

  Sandelson, Neville

  Garrett, W. E.

  McGuire, Michael

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Ginsburg, David (Dewsbury)

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Golding, John

  Mackie, John

  Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

  Gourlay, Harry

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton. N. E.)

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  McManus, Frank

  Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Sillars, James

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Silverman, Julius

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Marks, Kenneth

  Small, William

  Hamling, William

  Marsden, F.

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  Marshall, Dr. Edmund

  Spearing, Nigel

  Hardy, Peter

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Meacher, Michael

  Stallard, A. W.

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Steel, David

  Hattersley, Roy

  Mendelson, John

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Mikardo, Ian

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Strang, Gavin

  Hooson, Emlyn

  Milne, Edward

  Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

  Horam, John

  Mitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen)

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Swain, Thomas

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Taverne, Dick

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Moyle, Roland

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Hunter, Adam

  Murray, Ronald King

  Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

  Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

  Oakes, Gordon

  Tinn, James

  Janner, Greville

  Ogden, Eric

  Torney, Tom

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Tuck, Raphael

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  O'Malley, Brian

  Urwin, T. W.

  John, Brynmor

  Orme, Stanley

  Varley, Eric G.

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Paget, R. T.

  Wallace, George

  Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Watkins, David

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

  Weitzman, David

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Pardoe, John

  Wellbeloved, James

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Parker, John (Dagenham)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda. W.)

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Kelley, Richard

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Kerr, Russell

  Pentland, Norman

  Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  Lambie, David

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Lamond, James

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Latham, Arthur

  Prescott, John

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Lawson, George

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Woof, Robert

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Probert, Arthur

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Leonard, Dick

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Mr. Joseph Harper and

  Lestor, Miss Joan

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  Mr. Tom Pendry.

  Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Richard, Ivor

  NOES

  Adley, Robert

  Body, Richard

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Boscawen, Robert

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Clegg, Walter

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Bowden, Andrew

  Cockeram, Eric

  Astor, John

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Cooke, Robert

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Braine, Bernard

  Coombs, Derek

  Awdry, Daniel

  Brewis, John

  Cooper, A. E.

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Corfield, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Cormack, Patrick

  Balniel, Lord

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Costain, A. P.

  Batsford, Brian

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Crouch, David

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Bryan, Paul

  Crowder, F. P.

  Bell, Ronald

  Buck, Antony

  Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Burden, F. A.

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. James

  Benyon, W.

  Carlisle, Mark

  Dean, Paul

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Channon, Paul

  Dixon, Piers

  Biffen, John

  Chapman, Sydney

  Drayson, G. B.

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Blaker, Peter

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Dykes, Hugh

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)

  Churchill, W. S.

  Eden, Sir John

  208

  209

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Kirk, Peter

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Elliot, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

  Kitson, Timothy

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Eyre, Reginald

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Farr, John

  Knox, David

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Fell, Anthony

  Lambton, Antony

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Lane, David

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Fidler, Michael

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Rost, Peter

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Scott, Nicholas

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Sharples, Richard

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Longden, Gilbert

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Foster, Sir John

  Loveridge, John

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Fowler, Norman

  Luce, R. N.

  Simeons, Charles

  Fox, Marcus

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

  McArthur, Ian

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Fry, Peter

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  McLaren, Martin

  Soref, Harold

  Gardner, Edward

  McMaster, Stanley

  Speed, Keith

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Spence, John

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Sproat, Iain

  Goodhart, Philip

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

  Stainton, Keith

  Goodhew, Victor

  Madden, Martin

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Gower, Raymond

  Madel, David

  Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Marten, Neil

  Gray, Hamish

  Mather, Carol

  Stokes, John

  Green, Alan

  Maude, Angus

  Sutcliffe, John

  Grylls, Michael

  Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

  Tapsell, Peter

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Mawby, Ray

  Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

  Gurden, Harold

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Tebbit, Norman

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)

  Temple, John M.

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

  Hannan, John (Exeter)

  Moate, Roger

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Molyneaux, James

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Money, Ernie

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Hastings, Stephen

  Monks, Mrs. Connie

  Tilney, John

  Havers, Michael

  Monro, Hector

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Hawkins, Paul

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Trew, Peter

  Hayhoe, Barney

  More, Jasper

  Tugendhal, Christopher

  Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin

  Heseltine, Michael

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Hicks, Robert

  Morrison, Charles

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Hiley, Joseph

  Mudd, David

  Waddington, David

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Holland, Philip

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Hordern, Peter

  Normanton, Tom

  Hornby, Richard

  Nott, John

  Wall, Patrick

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Onslow, Cranley

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Oppenhelm, Mrs. Sally

  Warren, Kenneth

  Hunt, John

  Osborn, John

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  White, Roger (Gravesend)

  James, David

  Parkinson, Cecil

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Percival, Ian

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Jessel, Toby

  Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

  Wilkinson, John

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)

  Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

  Pounder, Rafton

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Jopling, Michael

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Worsley, Marcus

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Younger, Hn. George

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Kilfedder, James

  Raison, Timothy

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Kimball, Marcus

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Mr. Tim Fortescue and

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

  Mr. Oscar Murton.

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Redmond, Robert

  It being after half-past Eleven o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.

  PRIVATE MEMBERS' BILLS (EXPENSES)
  Resolved,
  That, in the opinion of this House, provision should be made, as from the beginning of this Session, for the payment to each of the Members who shall have secured the first ten places in the ballot for Private Members' Bills
  210
  of not more than £200 towards the cost of drafting assistance for such Bills.—[Mr. Whitelaw]

  ADJOURNMENT
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Speed.]

  COTTON TEXTILE INDUSTRY
  11.43 p.m.
  Mr. James Lomond: I welcome this opportunity to draw attention to the disastrous condition of the textile industry. I must make clear that I am speaking of the cotton textile industry and not of wool textiles which are more properly the concern of my colleagues in Yorkshire, although I am sure that many of them will agree with the points that I shall make.
  Seventy years ago the Lancashire people believed that three things were imperishable—religion, the Liberal Party and the cotton industry. Religion certainly is still quite strong; the Liberal Party has felt the wind of change. The one in which I am interested, the cotton industry, is certainly going through a very difficult period—so much so that there has been born a Textile Industry Support Campaign, Oldham led, which has been campaigning vigorously both within the Palace of Westminster and in the country at large, to draw attention to the situation in textiles. I think that every Member of this House has received from the Campaign a booklet entitled "The Death of Textiles" which in a sentence sums up their feelings.
  The organisers and supporters of the Campaign feel that, unless something is done urgently by the Government, our textile industry, which was the pride of Lancashire at one time, will die, and die before it has had the opportunity, which may come with entry into the Common Market, to revitalise itself. There is the possibility of revival of the industry if we enter the Common Market, but, unless action is taken now on one or two simple and straightforward points, the industry will be dead before that opportunity arises.
  There have been several articles on this matter in the Oldham Chronicle, a newspaper which takes a particular interest in the affairs of the industry, and recently an article by its labour correspondent, Mr. Fred Bottomley, told us about the position in the United States. It was a most informative article which described the actions being taken by the United States Government in negotiating new agreements with the Japanese to limit the growth of their exports to the
  212
  United States. These agreements, together with earlier agreements with China, Korea and Hong Kong, have brought to the American textile industry a measure of protection which our industry would like to see here.
  Foreign penetration into this country's textile consumption is running at well over 55 per cent. now. There has been a phenomenal increase in the last few years. It cannot go on if we are to have an industry of our own. I want the Government seriously to consider retaining the quota system along with the tariff system which is to be introduced in the new year. The tariff which is proposed is, in the opinion of industrialists, far too low to sustain the industry.
  The industry has enjoyed good labour relations. The trade union movement has not been difficult in negotiations about reorganising and modernising the industry and the consequential redundancies. Many mills have closed. There has been a rapid acceleration in the number of closures in the last few months. In the last 10 years, between 500 and 600 mills closed, but in the last nine months about 80 mills closed, resulting in about 15,000 redundancies in Lancashire. Such a level of redundancies, when compared with the position on the Upper Clyde, for example, can only be regarded as very serious. I do not for a moment suggest that we should be any the less inclined to support the workers in Upper Clyde shipbuilding, but I feel that we should remember that there are other industries just as severely hit. The feeling is that, unless the Government take action along the lines I have suggested and retain some quota, the industry will die.
  There is also the important question of the marking of country of origin on imported textiles. Because of the protective measures taken by the United States Government, there will be diverted to this country ever-increasing quantities of textiles from Japan and the other countries I have mentioned.
  We are allowing these imports to a far greater extent than any other industrialised country in Europe where in most countries penetration is between 5 and 20 per cent. or less than that in the United States when it decided to take action. This has to be compared with

  213
  the percentage which we allow without making any great effort to keep the figure in check.
  I assure hon. Members that the Lancashire newspapers contain many articles suggesting that they feel that the Government have let down or even abandoned Lancashire textiles. For example, the Lancashire Evening Telegraph talks of four mills closing and speaks of an S.O.S. being sent to the Prime Minister from employers and employees in the area asking for action, apparently in vain. There is a special supplement, "Challenge to Textile", dealing with the very issue of whether the British housewife should be allowed to know where the goods she buys were made.
  I know that the Government's view is that marking the country of origin would be a protection not of the consumer but of the manufacturer, but that is unusual logic, because anyone purchasing goods is surely entitled to know as much as possible about their manufacture and quality. Any foreign manufacturer giving good value for money should be unashamed of labelling his goods. If he feels that he is giving British housewives a bargain, he should be proud of telling them that the goods are made abroad and may be expected to give good value. But I do not believe that housewives accept that. I think that they would prefer to buy British, and it is our duty as Members of Parliament to label the country of origin, particularly of textiles, but of other goods, too.
  There is a regulation within the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade permitting a country to take action contrary to the Agreement when the domestic industry is seriously disrupted by excessive textile imports. The Government should consider that provision and taking such action, because nothing could be clearer than that the textile industry is facing its greatest crisis.
  In 1921, there were 250,000 weavers and winders employed in Lancashire. Today, there are only 30,000—one-eighth of the labour force of 50 years ago. The industry is on the way out unless the Government take action to save it. To end I can do no better than quote the closing paragraphs of the article in the Oldham Chronicle that I have mentioned. It says:
  214
  "… The textile industry is not asking for financial assitance. It is asking for positive quantitative control of imports similar to that being adopted by the Governments of other developed countries. Against such a background, the industry would quickly prove more than capable of looking after itself. It is of course no longer possible to see Lancashire's problems in isolation. The long-term answer to the problems now affecting all textile producing nations depends on the negotiation of a global all-fibre textile agreement. But if the degree of protection now asked for is not given, Britain will be prematurely released from even the preliminaries to such negotiations".
  The feeling of employers and workers in Lancashire is that the Government do not care about the industry and are prepared to write off textiles in Lancashire. I hope that the Government will take action which will prove that feeling to be wrong.
  11.55 p.m.
  Mr. Tom Normanton: The views expressed by the hon. Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Lamond) genuinely reflect the widespread distress and concern of the industry, not only in Lancashire but in Yorkshire, too. It is no coincidence that today we have debated Northern Ireland, since that is an area of considerable importance to the textile industry.
  It is appropriate that the hon. Gentleman should have referred to the need for urgent legislation in markings of origin. I have pleasure in informing him that I shall seek to introduce a Private Member's Bill on Wednesday afternoon, the sole purpose of which is to achieve what he wants, and what I know the industry wants, whether it be cotton, man-made fibre or wool textiles. It may not be adequate to meet all that the hon. Gentleman wishes to achieve, but I assure him that it is one step along the road to meeting the requirements of a major section of the industry.
  Mr. Dan Jones: We shall support the hon. Gentleman.
  11.56 p.m.
  Mr. John McCann: I raise only two points. First, will the Minister explain how the textile industry can invoke the conditions of the G.A.T.T. regarding the disruption of an industry? Secondly, will the hon. Gentleman make it clear that the textile industry did not

  215
  ask for tariffs? It asked for tariffs and quotas to run alongside each other for an experimental period, to discover which was best for it.
  11.57 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Anthony Grant): I congratulate the hon. Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Lamond) on raising this important subject and on the way in which he has presented it. I am sorry that in a half-hour Adjournment debate there is not sufficient time for more hon. Members to participate, because I know how strongly they feel. However, I believe that there will be other opportunities, perhaps even this week, to express a view.
  We all recognise that the cotton and allied textile industry has for many years been going through a period of difficult readjustment. It is not alone in this; other industries in this country are facing similar problems and the textile industries of other industrial countries have many of the same difficulties as Lancashire.
  Successive Governments of both parties have striven to help the industry and its workers, to adapt to changing national and world conditions. I would like to make it clear that this Government wish to see an industry that is strong, viable and internationally competitive.
  To this end, we have endorsed the policy adopted by the previous Government in July, 1969. The policy was based on the recommendations in a two-year Productivity and Efficiency Study by the industry's own Textile Council, which set out a programme for restructuring the industry into an entity that would be fully competitive by European standards by 1975. The two principal measures in the recommendations were the imposition of a tariff on cotton textiles imported from the Commonwealth Preference area and further efforts by the industry itself to re-equip and move to multi-shift working with an associated higher wage structure.
  This House will have an opportunity shortly to debate the order introducing a tariff on Commonwealth cotton textiles on 1st January next.
  I acknowledge with satisfaction the successful efforts which many firms in
  216
  Lancashire, big, medium and small, have made to increase their competitiveness by installing new plant, by streamlining their organisation and management, by improving design, by better marketing and in many other ways. I also acknowledge the wholehearted support which these efforts have received from the textile unions. Labour relations in this industry are a shining example of what can be achieved by good leadership on both sides, which underlines the importance of appreciating how the other side views common problems.
  It was fundamental to the Textile Council Report—which was accepted by most of the industry's leadership as well as, as I said, by both the previous Government and this one—that numbers of mills and workers would continue to fall if the objective of a trimmed-down competitive industry were to be achieved. Specifically, the Council forecast that the numbers employed in spinning, doubling, weaving and finishing would fall from 125,000 to about 75,000 between 1968 and 1975, and the number of mills would fall from 715 to about 300. The Council also recognised that the pattern of production would have to change, notably that knitted fabrics would develop more rapidly than the output of traditional woven cloth.
  In a sense, it is premature to judge the results of this policy when one major element—the new tariff—is only about to be implemented. The Labour Government decided to give both the industry and overseas suppliers plenty of time to prepare for the change. They also decided that when the new tariff came in on 1st January, 1972, the existing system of quantitative restrictions on cotton textile imports from low-cost suppliers should end.
  Mr. Dan Jones: It should be recorded that the industry is disputing that evidence.
  Mr. Grant: Be that as it may, this, as I understand it, was what the previous Government decided to do.
  Those who predict disaster for Lancashire should keep things in perspective. Currently, employment in the cotton and allied textile industry is about 98,000, just about on the curve forecast by the Textile Council. The labour force in textiles in the textile belt of Lancashire

  217
  has fallen by about 11,500 in the last year, but unemployment in the industry increased by only 2,000, so that most of those becoming redundant either found new jobs or withdrew from the labour force. Any increase in unemployment is a matter for concern, as this Government have repeatedly made clear, but even in the textile belt of Lancashire unemployment is not primarily a textile problem.
  Mr. McCann: One of the problems we are faced with is that while unemployment generally has risen by 20 per cent., in spinning and weaving it has risen by 150 per cent.
  Mr. Grant: That may be, but the point I was making was that unemployment is not primarily a textile problem, even in Lancashire.
  Mill closures have gone no quicker than the Council forecast. In the first two years after the Report, closures went more slowly than foreseen, and though the rate is now catching up, there are still 200 more mills left in the industry than the Council thought would be needed by 1975.
  Imports have risen this year, but there have been special factors. Late shipments of woven cotton cloth against 1970 quotas arriving in 1971 swelled the figures earlier this year, while the ending of duty-free imports from the Commonwealth next January must be encouraging traders to make the most of this year's facilities. There is also evidence that overseas suppliers have held their prices steadier than United Kingdom producers whose prices rose by about 20 per cent. between 1968 and 1970. If price differentials are a cause of the present situation the new Commonwealth tariff will help.
  It is noteworthy that four-fifths of the increase in imports of woven fabrics of man-made fibre come from European and North American sources, not from low-cost suppliers.
  The Government are watching the import situation closely. That includes the implication of recent United States action. They have put proposals to the industry for joint machinery to collect information swiftly on market developments, including imports. They are ready to use their powers against dumped or subsidised imports if industry can make out a case of material injury or the threat
  218
  of it. My hon. Friend the Minister for Industry has already assured the British Textile Employers' Association that the power we have reserved to reintroduce quotas against disruption after next January will be used effectively, and that it would be a matter for concern if the Government's object of fostering a competitive and streamlined industry were jeopardised. The Government are considering in the light of the employment situation and recent international developments in the textile trade whether there is any need for further action at the present time in relation to the industry.
  As regards origin marking, the Government have already indicated that if, as they hope, the Private Member's Bill to be introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South-East (Mr. Peel)—which, I understand, will in my hon. Friend's absence, be presented by my hon. Friends the Members for Oldham, East and for Cheadle (Mr. Normanton) is framed to provide a satisfactory answer to the fears which have been expressed about the possible deception of the public in the absence of origin markings, it will have the Government's encouragement and support.
  The Government recognise that a fundamental factor in the prosperity of the textile industry, like any other industry, is a sufficient level of demand. They have taken measures, of which the House is fully aware, to encourage demand in this country. I am confident that these measures will before long revive the demand for textiles. Increased national economic activity will also create new jobs in the textile areas and so help absorb—as has usually happened in the last 25 years—labour released by the closure of surplus textile capacity. A little further ahead, entry into the European Common Market will give us a market five times the size of that in the United Kingdom alone. I am confident that the new cotton and allied textile industry which is emerging will find plentiful opportunities in that vast new market.
  The Government recognise the difficulties through which the industry is passing. We appreciate the concern and anxiety of hon. Members about this industry, and the number of hon. Members present for this half-hour Adjournment debate indicates that. I do not at this stage think that I can go further than I have done

  219
  in indicating that the Government share the concern of hon. Members about unemployment, and I have given the assurances which I hope will be acceptable in this respect.
  12.10 a.m.
  Mr. John Roper: We are disappointed at the lack of information from the Minister this evening. We were hoping to hear him outline something of a strategy to deal with the serious problems of this industry, bearing in mind that the Textile Council has said that the textile cycle is worse than it has been in the past. We wanted to hear about some interim plan to deal with the problems in the industry during the period before the possible benefits of entry into the E.E.C. can accrue. We heard nothing from the Minister about what this country's textile policy within the Community will be, or about how our policy might or might not be harmonised with that of the Community. That is what we hoped to hear about, but we did not.
  The Minister spoke about unemployment not having risen. If he were to look more carefully at the figures, he would realise that there are many women operatives in the Lancashire textile industry who have become unemployed during the last few months, but as they pay
  220
  only the lower rate stamp, they do not register as unemployed. The figures quoted by the hon. Gentleman are therefore totally meaningless, and show the complacency of the Government and their failure to deal with—
  Mr. Anthony Grant: The hon. Gentleman must not misquote me. In no way did I indicate complacency. My words were chosen carefully when I said that it was important to keep the matter in perspective. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the mere fact that during a half-hour Adjournment debate I have not announced an entirely new policy does not mean that the Government are not looking at this matter with great concern.
  Mr. Roper: Complacent words can be chosen carefully. We had hoped for more useful words, but we did not get them.
  The House will no doubt have other opportunities to return to this subject, and when we do we shall press the Government for a policy to help the Lancashire cotton industry, which has suffered far too much in recent years from inadequate attention from Governments.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twelve minutes past Twelve o'clock.

WALES
  Economic Activity
  Economic Activity
  Eastern Avenue, Cardiff
  Eastern Avenue, Cardiff
  Atmospheric Pollution
  Atmospheric Pollution
  Speech Therapists
  Speech Therapists
  Hospital Services (Barry)
  Hospital Services (Barry)
  Mid-Wales Development Corporation, Newtown (Grant)
  Mid-Wales Development Corporation, Newtown (Grant)
  Population (Mid-Wales)
  Population (Mid-Wales)
  OLD STREET COURT (MAGISTRATE'S COMMENTS)
  OLD STREET COURT (MAGISTRATE'S COMMENTS)
  MR. ALFRED MATHEWS, ALIAS ELLIOTT
  MR. ALFRED MATHEWS, ALIAS ELLIOTT
  LEGAL COSTS
  LEGAL COSTS
TRADE AND INDUSTRY
  Advance Factories
  Advance Factories
  Industrial Development Certificates
  Industrial Development Certificates
  Employment (Sunderland)
  Employment (Sunderland)
  Upper Clyde Shipyards
  Upper Clyde Shipyards
  Steel Industry (Investment Plans)
  Steel Industry (Investment Plans)
  Machine Tool Industry
  Machine Tool Industry
  Palmers Hebburn Shiprepairing Yard
  Palmers Hebburn Shiprepairing Yard
  Jet Aero Engines (Noise Research)
  Jet Aero Engines (Noise Research)
  Coal Stocks
  Coal Stocks
  British Steel Corporation (Tubes Division, Glasgow)
  British Steel Corporation (Tubes Division, Glasgow)
  East Midlands Airport
  East Midlands Airport
  Cwmbran New Town
  Cwmbran New Town
  Motor Insurance Companies
  Motor Insurance Companies
  Small Firms (Advisory Service)
  Small Firms (Advisory Service)
  Industrial Liaison Service
  Industrial Liaison Service
  Companies Act, 1948
  Companies Act, 1948
  Census of Retailers
  Census of Retailers
  Coal (Imports)
  Coal (Imports)
  Steel Industry (Scotland)
  Steel Industry (Scotland)
  Berkley Petroleum (United Kingdom) Limited
  Berkley Petroleum (United Kingdom) Limited
  Mineral Deposits (Licences)
  Mineral Deposits (Licences)
  Grain Imports
  Grain Imports
  Dyce Airport (Rescue Helicopters)
  Dyce Airport (Rescue Helicopters)
  "Festivity" (Abandonment)
  "Festivity" (Abandonment)
  British Ships (Manning and Inspection)
  British Ships (Manning and Inspection)
  Rockall Lighthouse
  Rockall Lighthouse
  Recordings (Geneva Conference)
  Recordings (Geneva Conference)
  Garages and Car Parks (Vehicle Liability)
  Garages and Car Parks (Vehicle Liability)
  Regional Development Incentives
  Regional Development Incentives
  British Steel Corporation (Tubes Division, Glasgow)
  British Steel Corporation (Tubes Division, Glasgow)
  European Economic Community
  European Economic Community
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  South Africa (Arrest of British Subjects)
  South Africa (Arrest of British Subjects)
  Malta (Economy and Defence)
  Malta (Economy and Defence)
  Rhodesia
  Rhodesia
  Interrogations
  Interrogations
  European Economic Community
  European Economic Community
  Northern Ireland
  Northern Ireland
  United Nations Association (Grant)
  United Nations Association (Grant)
  Chemical and Biological Warfare
  Chemical and Biological Warfare
  Abu Musa Island (Agreement)
  Abu Musa Island (Agreement)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Licensed Premises (Drinking After Permitted Hours)
  Licensed Premises (Drinking After Permitted Hours)
  Lemon Liquid Detergent (Toxicity)
  Lemon Liquid Detergent (Toxicity)
  Councillors (Qualifications for Election)
  Councillors (Qualifications for Election)
  Northern Ireland
  Northern Ireland
SCOTLAND
  D List Schools (Qualified Teachers)
  D List Schools (Qualified Teachers)
  Birth Statistics
  Birth Statistics
  Works Closures
  Works Closures
  Housing Modernisation (Central Heating Grants)
  Housing Modernisation (Central Heating Grants)
  Motorway (Edinburgh—Perth)
  Motorway (Edinburgh—Perth)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Government Contract Preference Scheme
  Government Contract Preference Scheme
  Bolton Committee
  Bolton Committee
  House Mortgages (Tax Relief)
  House Mortgages (Tax Relief)
DEFENCE
  Chatham (Departmental Land)
  Chatham (Departmental Land)
  Northern Ireland
  Northern Ireland
  Electronic Noise Machines
  Electronic Noise Machines
  Multi-Rôle Combat Aircraft
  Multi-Rôle Combat Aircraft
EMPLOYMENT
  Government Training Centre (Pontlanfraith)
  Government Training Centre (Pontlanfraith)
  Allied Breweries (Bid for Trust Houses Forte)
  Allied Breweries (Bid for Trust Houses Forte)
  NORTHERN IRELAND
  NORTHERN IRELAND
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Lime
  Lime
  Brucellosis
  Brucellosis
  Ewes
  Ewes
  Bacon Stabilisation Arrangements
  Bacon Stabilisation Arrangements
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act, 1970
  Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act, 1970
  Student Unions
  Student Unions
  Teaching Machines
  Teaching Machines
ENVIRONMENT
  Speed Limits
  Speed Limits
  Slums and Substandard Houses
  Slums and Substandard Houses
  Inverness-Kyle of Lochalsh Railway
  Inverness-Kyle of Lochalsh Railway
  Advisory Councils (Research)
  Advisory Councils (Research)
  Level Crossings (Automatic Half-Barriers)
  Level Crossings (Automatic Half-Barriers)
  Land Reclamation (Colliery Spoil Heaps)
  Land Reclamation (Colliery Spoil Heaps)
  European Economic Community
  European Economic Community
  British Transport Docks Board (Financial Objective)
  British Transport Docks Board (Financial Objective)
SOCIAL SERVICES
  Hospital Doctors (Indian and Pakistani Citizens)
  Hospital Doctors (Indian and Pakistani Citizens)
  Hospitals (Consultant Posts)
  Hospitals (Consultant Posts)
  Pensions (Retirement Age)
  Pensions (Retirement Age)
  National Health Service (Reorganisation)
  National Health Service (Reorganisation)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock: The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES On the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Truro.

RHODESIAN CHROME: BRITAIN AND U. N. RESOLUTION
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what was the voting at the General Assembly of the United Nations on November 16 on the resolution which urged the United States to observe the embargo on imports of Rhodesian chrome, and how did the United Kingdom delegation vote.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN): My Lords, the voting in the General Assembly of the United Nations on November 16 on a resolution urging the Government of the United States of America to prevent the importation of Rhodesian chrome ore into the United States was 106 for the resolution, 2 against, and 13 abstentions.
2
The United Kingdom abstained from voting on the resolution.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, was not this an extraordinary decision by the British delegation? Had we not expressed dissatisfaction to the American Government at this step? Did it not prejudice our negotiations with Mr. Ian Smith? Will it not undermine the continuation of sanctions?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I think not. The reason why the United Kingdom abstained on this occasion was principally because we questioned the propriety of the General Assembly concerning itself in this way about the compliance with Security Council resolutions and, in particular, when the Security Council has itself set up machinery to supervise such resolutions.
BARONESS GAITSKELL: My Lords, would not the Minister agree that this cowardly abstention lays us open to an accusation of collusion between us and the United States as we were negotiating with Rhodesia at the time? Is it not true that we have always said that Rhodesia is our problem and that when other people do not hold to sanctions it is no argument against our holding to them?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, it is certainly no argument against our holding to them. The matter is one between the Government of the United States and the Security Council.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, is not Rhodesian chrome the best

3
in the world? Was it not getting to America anyway via Russia? Is not this resolution rather a nonsense?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I am afraid I have no knowledge of the suggestions that my noble friend has made.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, regardless of the quality of Rhodesian chrome, may I ask the Minister what steps the Government are going to take if they consider the Assembly an inappropriate place to deal with this matter? Will they be pursuing this matter through the machinery of the Security Council?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, the position is that the United States Government have withheld any action on this matter until, I think. January 1. It is the type of situation which might come before the Sanctions Committee; but it would be a little hasty to take any further action on this matter until we see what happens in the new year.
LORD PARGITER: My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that it is rather peculiar that this decision about the chrome and the visits of our representatives to Rhodesia should be taking place at about the same time?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I am not responsible for the actions of the United States Congress in these matters.
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, could the noble Lord explain why he does not think that the American action will undermine the sanctions position?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I think I am right in saying that the Americans, like ourselves, have been among the staunchest upholders of sanctions over the past few years. I understand that when this matter was discussed in the United Nations the American delegate made it perfectly plain that if this importation was to go through it would be very much the exception to the American rule.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, without entering into the merits of this particular Question, does it not indicate that
4
the resolutions of the United Nations—not only this one, but others—are often not worth the paper they are written on?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, that is a rather wider question.

ABU MUSA ISLAND
2.40 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether through British mediation an agreement has been reached between the Federation of Arab Emirates in the Persian Gulf and the Government of Iran regarding the future of Abu Musa and neighbouring islands.]
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I am glad to confirm that agreement has been reached between the Ruler of Sharjah and the Imperial Iranian Government, through the good offices of Her Majesty's Government, over future arrangements in respect of the Island of Abu Musa.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, is the Minister aware that I desire to congratulate the Government? May I ask whether he can inform us how far democratic institutions have been established in these territories, and how much of the oil wealth will pass to the benefit of the peoples there?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, that is a rather wider question. I understand that details of the agreement which has been reached are to he announced by the Ruler some time today, and in the circumstances I feel that it would be better not to comment any further until that announcement has been made.

LEICESTER SQUARE PARKING METERS AND FILM PREMIERE
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why on November 18, it was found

5
necessary to shut down all parking meters in the area of Leicester Square before 1 p.m. because there was going to be a premiere of a new film at a cinema in Leicester Square that night.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD WINDLESHAM): My Lords, in order to ensure that the parking time purchased at all the parking places in an area to be cleared has run out by the time parking has to be prohibited, the process of shutting down the meter bays has to be started some hours in advance. There is an element of judgment in deciding when to begin, and it may be that the police erred on the side of caution on the occasion my noble friend mentions. The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis is considering whether the police measures in this area might normally be left until rather later.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I should like to thank my noble friend for his Answer. As he has referred the matter to the Commissioner of Police it is probably a satisfactory answer, as the Commissioner is an intelligent man. But could my noble friend perhaps, in view of the Answer he has given, just look into the question that to-day again exactly the same thing has happened?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, there are a number of interests here that have to be balanced: the interests of those wishing to park their cars; the necessity to avoid congestion at an event likely to be attended by large numbers of people. There is the question of the availability of staff. As I have said, the Commissioner is reviewing the arrangements made on these occasions and I think that in doing so he may wish to take into account the second occasion referred to in my noble friend's supplementary.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, perhaps my noble friend would point out to the Commissioner of Police that this is a rather exceptional area because there are so many restaurants and cafés in it. Would it not be perfectly simple to close the meters immediately after lunch, rather than before lunch?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the number of restaurants, cafés, clubs and so on in the area is a factor to be taken into account, and if it is possible
6
for the Commissioner of Police to close these parking meters a little later in the day, I am sure he will want to try to do so.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That leave be given to the Lord Sandford to advance the Committee stage of the Field Monuments Bill from Thursday December 2 to Tuesday November 30, and to the Lord Jacques to advance the Second Reading of the Landlord and Tenant (Business Compensation) Bill from Tuesday December 7 to Monday December 6;and also that Standing Order No.36(4) be dispensed with for the purpose of enabling the Motion standing in the name of the Baroness Seear on Tuesday December 7 to be taken first on that day. —(Earl St. Aldwyn.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE REORGANISATION
2.45 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE) rose to move, That this House takes note of the Consultative Documents on the National Health Service Reorganisation in England and Wales. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I very much welcome the opportunity to introduce this debate this afternoon and to consult your Lordships on the proposals for the reorganisation of the National Health Service. It is never easy to choose the right moment to hold a debate of this kind, but I believe that we have chosen the right moment this afternoon. The Consultative Documents for England and Wales are just what they say—consultative—and we are still engaged in consultations. We have received a tremendous amount of written evidence from a very large number of interested organisations, and my right honourable friend and I are now engaged in further meetings with many of them to clarify the issues and to ensure that we have taken the full import of their advice. To this process I am sure

7
that your Lordships' House has a great deal to contribute and I therefore very much welcome this debate and am most grateful for the large number of your Lordships who intend to speak this afternoon.
I have received two specific regrets from the noble Lords, Lord Rosenheim and Lord Normanby, both of whom are extremely well qualified to speak, and I know that we shall all regret their unavoidable absence. The views that your Lordships express this afternoon will be given the most careful consideration. Because of the number of speakers in the debate it may well be that I shall not be able adequately to deal with a number of points that are made. I hope therefore to be forgiven if I do not deal with certain specific points, but I promise that they will all be considered and that where there are questions to be answered we will answer them in writing.
We have already announced that unification of the health services will take effect in April,1974, to coincide with the new local government reorganisation. We intend to publish a White Paper about the middle of next year, but before that my right honourable friend will be making announcements about particular matters such as the future boundaries of health authorities and arrangements to safeguard the interests of those working in various branches of the Service. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales intends to follow a similar timetable. There may be some impatience at the time-consuming process of consultation and study, but the National Health Service, with its three-quarters of a million staff, is an enormous and complex enterprise. It is most important that we get the administrative structure as nearly right as possible, and to do this it is essential that we use the experience, wisdom and ideas of those running the Service and take full account of the reaction of the public for whom the Service exists.
The consultations that have already taken place have in fact produced a great deal of constructive criticisms that will enable us to improve on the framework outlined in the Consultative Documents. Improvements in the management of the Service can come about only through a
8
close working partnership between the central Departments and those working in the field, with a continuous flow of information and ideas between them. In the separate English and Welsh Management Studies, for example, detailed investigation and analysis is being undertaken by study groups consisting of departmental officials, management consultants and National Health Service officers, reporting to a Steering Committee made up of senior officials, National Health Service members and officers and outside experts. On the basis of preliminary investigations, these teams are formulating provisional proposals for management and for the internal organisation of health authorities, which will then be tested, and where necessary modified, through detailed field investigations.
The Joint England/Wales Working Party, which has been set up to advise on the ways in which health and local authorities can best co-operate, offer one another assistance and complement one another's services, is chaired by a Deputy Secretary from my Department and its members are drawn from local government, the National Health Service and the Government Departments principally concerned, including of course the Welsh Office. Local authority associations readily responded to the invitation to nominate representatives and have indeed themselves been pressing for a joint study of this kind.
This Working Party, when it met in August, set up three sub-committees to study in detail particular aspects of collaboration and a steering committee to co-ordinate their work. The tasks of the sub-committees are to examine respectively the personal social services, environmental health in relation to the National Health Service and future arrangements for the school health service. At a later stage special studies may be made of other matters such as the effective and efficient use of staff, buildings and other resources, the financial implications of collaboration and the application to London of arrangements recommended for the country as a whole.
The London Working Party, of which I am chairman, has the same wide spread of membership as the group established by the previous Administration, which will be well familiar to the noble

9
Baroness, Lady Serota. Its examination of preliminary proposals threw up important issues of principle affecting the teaching hospitals, which have been examined further by the Department. My right honourable friend and I propose to discuss these with representatives of the London and provincial teaching hospitals and following this we shall put revised proposals to the Working Party. As conclusions emerge from all these studies there will be consultation with the interests involved, including consultations with the staff interests on matters that affect them. My Lords, I have dealt in some detail with these studies since the comments that we have had on these Consultative Documents have contained a good deal of speculation about them and the way in which they are working.
There has been some criticism of the brevity of these Documents and their preoccupation with effective management. We did not set out to provide a comprehensive treatise on the National Health Service, but we concentrated on those aspects where our proposals differed from those of the previous Government's Green Paper, and those that required legislative decisions. This does not mean that we have lost sight of the doctor or nurse at the patient's bedside, but the doctor and the nurse can no longer work in isolation. The needs of the patient require them increasingly to work as part of a complex health and social service team; they need the support of a wide and often costly range of facilities, supplies and services. Since the needs and opportunities for improvement in health care universally outstrip resources, priorities have to be ordered and services co-ordinated to achieve the best results with the money and people available. Here lies the role of management. Organisation is a part of management and effective management is therefore the dominant theme of these Documents dealing with the reorganisation of the National Health Service.
It has been suggested that there is something incompatible between effective management and the kind of treatment and care that patients need. In my opinion this is based on the false assumption that effective management must be equated with some narrow concept of industrial management. The application of modern management techniques has
10
brought, and will increasingly bring, benefit to the National Health Service, but the style of Health Service management must clearly be geared to its basic aims of providing a high standard of treatment and care and must be adapted to the requirements of a predominantly professional service. Health Service management which is not concerned with the needs of patients as individuals is not achieving its objectives and is certainly not effective. It is the patient who gains from efficient management and the patient who suffers, if, for example, through ordering of priorities his admission to hospital is delayed, or if he is kept in hospital longer than is necessary because community services have not been developed and co-ordinated to meet his needs.
To achieve effective management in a service as large as this, it is clearly essential to decentralise decision-making. At the same time Ministers have to discharge their responsibility to Parliament for a centrally financed service. The Consultative Documents therefore stress the importance of combining the maximum delegation downwards with accountability upwards.
Area health authorities are to be the operational units responsible for planning and organising comprehensive health services. This is an essential part of the management structure, both in the functioning of the Health Service and in enabling close collaboration between the Health Service and local government at area and county level. But resources have to be allocated between these authorities, their performance monitored and their activities co-ordinated, and some services need to be planned or organised on a wider basis than an area. In England, the size of the country and the number of authorities is such that these tasks cannot adequately be performed from the centre. A regional organisation is needed and we believe it can best be run by people from within the regions rather than by civil servants. We have therefore proposed the establishment of regional health authorities with boundaries corresponding broadly to the present hospital regions.
In Wales, on the other hand, because of its much smaller size there is no need for a regional authority. The area authorities will be few enough to permit

11
a satisfactory relationship between them and the Secretary of State, to whom they will be directly accountable. There are. however, various executive functions which area health authorities might discharge but which for maximum efficiency, economy and expedition are best carried out for all Wales. For example, the design and execution of major capital works, the provision of computer facilities and specialised management services. In England, these are likely to be undertaken by regional health authorities, while in Wales it is proposed to set up a Welsh health technical services organisation, accountable to the Secretary of State through a small managing board, to serve both the area health authorities and the Secretary of State.
These proposals have been widely accepted by bodies commenting on the Consultative Documents. More controversial have been the proposals that we have made on membership. We have proposed that area health authorities should normally have 15 members, including the chairman, and that most of them should be appointed by the regional health authority, after consultation with interested organisations, including the main health professions. There would be at least two doctors and a nurse or midwife on each area authority, because these professions are involved in virtually every aspect of the provision and management of health services. There would also be representatives from the corresponding local authority. The selection of the other members of the area health authority would be influenced by their potential contribution to the management of the service.
The members of the authorities will set the policies and provide the leadership. Executive management within the agreed policies will be the responsibility of their officers. A strong management structure will be matched by strong professional advisory machinery and effective public representation. The Documents envisage that professional advisory machinery will be established at both regional and area level. This proposal has been widely welcomed among the health care professions, and we are actively studying ways in which it can best be implemented. The medical and nursing professions are also considering the sort of
12
advisory machinery which might most effectively bring their experience to bear on the decision-making processes of the health authorities.
The public will be represented in the new Service by the community health councils. There has been some misunderstanding about the councils' place in this scheme that we have in mind. They will not be ineffectual bodies whose views can be disregarded by the health authorities. On the contrary, we intend that they should confront the area health authorities with the views of the local communities, so as to ensure that the authorities take the fullest account of those views in running and planning their services.
Most health areas will need to be subdivided into districts for management purposes, and since local interest and concern will centre on the district services, rather than those for the area as a whole, there will normally be a community health council for each district. The power of the community health councils will have to be effective. They will be consulted and asked to advise on area plans for health service developments, including proposals for major variations in the pattern of services affecting patients in the district. I am thinking of such proposals as those to close hospitals or parts of hospitals, to change their use or to introduce new services, and the siting of hospitals and health centres. The councils will be entitled, on their own initiative, to express their views on the working or development of district services.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, will the noble Lord forgive me? He has mentioned the closure of hospitals, on which at the moment the Secretary of State has to give approval, and he said that the community health councils would be asked to express an opinion on this. What obligation will there be on the Secretary of State to pay any attention to their views?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, it would be a strange Secretary of State who did not pay attention to all the views expressed on these matters. This happens at the moment. As the noble Lord will know as an ex-Member of the other place. Members of Parliament are consulted, too, and the Secretary of State

13
gives most careful consideration to all the views expressed on these sorts of matters. But in this case the community health council will have a preliminary chance of expressing their views on the plans put forward by the area health authority long before the proposal reaches the Secretary of State. Their members will have the right to visit hospitals and other National Health Service institutions. They will be provided with accommodation for their meetings and secretarial help, and they will publish reports on their work. The suggestion has been made that area health authorities might be obliged to publish a formal reply to reports by community health councils. This would certainly ensure that attention was paid to their views, and we are carefully considering this point.
In the Consultative Documents it was suggested that area health authorities should appoint the members of the community health councils. It has been pointed out since, I think with some justice, that such a method of appointment might weaken their effectiveness in working on the community's behalf. My right honourable friends have open minds on this. They have suggested an alternative possibility: that some members might be appointed by local government and that others might be drawn from voluntary organisations and consumer bodies. We are very ready to listen to any views on the membership and functions of these councils which will help to make them effective organs of informed community opinion. We are confident that, given the right organisation, they can secure public participation and provide a spur to good management much more effectively than would be the case if there were an uneasy mixture of management and representational elements on the governing bodies themselves.
My Lords, there are other themes in these Documents on which noble Lords may wish me to comment, and I hope that at the end of the debate I may be able to say something about some of these matters that are raised. But I should like before I conclude to refer to the important implications for the staff of the Service. We owe them a great debt for the efficiency and humanity with which they have played their part in the existing National Health Service, and it is,
14
after all, on them that the success of reorganisation will very largely depend. Most of the staff will continue to do the same job in the same place. Within the family practitioner services the contracts of the general practitioners, dentists, pharmacists and opticians will remain unaffected. There will, however, be the uncertainties of changing to new authorities, and for many staff, particularly those engaged in the administration of the present services, there will be some measure of change, perhaps substantial change, and there will certainly be a great deal of work.
For reorganisation to achieve its objectives, it is clearly essential that staff should know that their interests arc being properly safeguarded, and that they should be kept informed not only of the measures that are being taken to assure their future but also of the decisions that are being taken on the pattern of the Service. This is a task in which we welcome the co-operation offered by the unions and staff associations concerned, and it is our intention to keep in close touch with the Staff Side at all stages. Last month my right honourable friend met the Staff Side of the General Whitley Council and discussed the general staffing implications of reorganisation and arrangements for consulting the staff interests and keeping them informed as the planning of reorganisation proceeds. Particular matters for discussion will include compensation and protection for transferred staff.
On October 29 we circulated to staff and management interests a consultation paper outlining our proposals for staff reorganisation. As my right honourable friend said in another place on July 1, we intend to appoint National Health Service Staff Commissions in preparation for the reorganisation. They will be responsible for advising on the procedures to be used for filling, in particular, the more senior posts in the new bodies, and on measures to safeguard the interests of staff. The Commissions cannot be set up in statutory form until the necessary legislation has been passed, but my right honourable friends intend to appoint an Advisory Committee to undertake preparatory work pending the appointment of the statutory Commissions. They would be similar to the body that proved so useful in London government reorganisation, and to the new

15
bodies for local government proposed to be set up under the Local Government Bill. We are consulting the interests concerned about this and we shall listen very carefully to their comments.
The proposed National Health Service structure will, we believe, supply the framework within which real advances in the integration of health services can be achieved. It will not of itself produce integration, but it will establish area health authorities whose task it will be to develop a balanced and integrated service, and it will have the management structure and advisory machinery enabling them to fulfil this task. The new structure will not in any sense be the present hospital service writ large, much less a takeover of the community services by the hospitals. The importance of preventive medicine, of the general practitioner and of community services generally will increase. To translate this generalisation into effective working arrangements of benefit to the patient is a formidable task, and in carrying it out area health authorities will need to make the fullest use of the energies and imagination of the present staff of the service. The present local authority administrative medical staff will have a key part to play in their new role of community physician. For them, as for other Health Service professions, reorganisation will present a great challenge and offer enhanced opportunities.
My Lords, our role as legislators in the health care of the nation is a limited but important one. Legislation cannot of itself create the kind of Health Service we want, but it can either place obstacles in the way of the most effective pattern of health care, or it can provide opportunities for, and stimulus to, progress. Our aim is to develop a legislative framework that will remove the obstacles which present legislation has placed in the way of effective integration of health services and their co-ordination with local authority services, and will at the same time provide the foundation for more effective management and deployment of resources. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That this House takes note of the Consultative Documents on the National Health Service Reorganisation in England and Wales, —(Lord Aberdare.)
3.12 p.m.
BARONESS SEROTA: My Lords, may I first thank the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for giving us this opportunity to discuss the fundamental organisation and administration of one of the greatest of our social services, affecting, as it does, the present and future health and wellbeing of every man, woman and child in the country, and also for his very careful and clear exposition of the Consultative Documents setting out the Governments proposals for a new and unified Health Service structure.
Although his right honourable friend the Secretary of State asked for comments on the Consultative Document that he issued on May 17 by the end of July, thus giving organisations a bare 10 weeks in which to make their views known on these vital issues, I was very glad to hear from the Minister that the observations which noble Lords will be expressing to-day from their considerable experience of many different aspects of our health care system will not be too late to affect Government decisions and the principles on which the White Paper (which we now understand is to be issued some time in the middle of next year) and the subsequent legislation will be based. All I would say is that if there is in fact time for our comments to be taken into account it is, in my view, even more regrettable that all the many interested organisations were not given a more reasonable period of time in which to submit their considered views. I am sure they will be glad to have the reassurances that the noble Lord has given us to-day.
Like the Minister, I do not intend to rehearse again the overwhelming case for integration, or for the need to match an integrated and unified Health Service geographically to the proposed new local government system embodied in the Bill which is already under consideration in another place. Your Lordships will recall that we debated these subjects in considerable depth, and at some length, only 18 months ago when we were considering the second Green Paper setting out the proposals of the previous Administration. Two successive Governments, regardless of Party, have now agreed on the need for change, after more than a decade of public debate. I certainly am convinced, and I believe most other noble Lords

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who are speaking in the debate are convinced, that it is essential, at this stage in their development, to unite the three main streams of health care on the one hand, and the formerly fragmented personal social services, on the other, and to develop them into coherent and complementary community-based and nationwide systems of health and social care which can respond sensitively and flexibly to the total needs of the individual patient, and develop services in which the prevention of ill-health and the prevention of social distress and breakdown can receive a new emphasis, and in which patient and consumer benefit are the paramount objectives.
The question, therefore, for us to-day is whether the Government's proposals will achieve this. In so far as they endorse the principle of integration and the need to match the unified Health Service geographically with the new local authorities at least at area level, as indicated in paragraphs 3 and 8 of the Consultative Document, there are no differences between us. So I would only thank the noble Lord for giving us to-day some indication of the composition and methods of working of the Working Party set up by his right honourable friend to consider in detail the crucial and difficult issues involved in this collaborative exercise. I would simply ask him whether, when they have come to the end of their deliberations, their Report is to be published for all of us to see in due course.
Here, I am afraid, is where the area of agreement ends, both on matters of principle and in their general application. I personally found the Consultative Document flimsy in every sense, from the principles on which it was based to its actual physical presentation. After almost a year of preparation it is sketchy, vague, and, above all, completely inhuman, and so dominated, almost to the point of obsession, with the term "management" that the patient is not even mentioned once. I know that the noble Lord has to-day changed the note, if perhaps not the tune, but I so well recall the noble Baroness, Lady Brooke of Ystradfellte, in the debate to which I have just referred, reminding us, in her usual forthright way, that, "It must never be forgotten that the Service is for the patient and not for the administrator". I am sure we are
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all looking forward to hearing from her further to-day. Her range of knowledge at regional board, hospital management committee and local house committee level is such that I am sure she has a great deal to contribute to the future of this great Service.
When I had read the word "management" almost thirty times, I began to wonder how one could use one word to mean so many things and I was eventually reminded of Humpty Dumpty saying, in Alice Through the Looking-Glass:
"When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less."
The noble Lord has sought to explain at the outset of our debate just what he and his right honourable friend mean by the words "management" and "effective management" in an all-pervasive and universal social service like the National Health Service, but I should still like to ask them how they intend to measure performance. Will it really be in terms of patient benefit? I deplore the apparent intention—although the noble Lord again has sought to correct it to-day—merely to borrow direct management techniques developed for industry and commerce, on the assumption that they will necessarily produce better services for sick people who, above all, must be seen and treated as individuals in their family and neighbourhood setting. Are the commercial profit and loss tools of measurement relevant or even applicable in this context, or is the "lame duck" principle going to be applied, under the new dispensation, to those parts of the Service that are not regarded as viable? I am not surprised at all that there are some members of the health profession who are concerned about their clinical freedom in the brave new management-dominated Service outlined in the Consultative Document. Surely we need to develop quite new tools of measurement for measuring effectiveness in a social service. I hope that this is one of the matters to which the expert study group, to which the noble Lord referred, will turn its attention.
Of course we shall all agree that the more effective use of resources through good management must be one of the major objectives of a public service which makes immense demands on skilled manpower and scientific equipment as it continues to develop. But management is not my Lords an end in itself: it is

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only a method of achieving defined objectives and implementing chosen priorities. Since values ultimately determine policy, the real question surely is: who is to define the objectives and decide the priorities? Should they be people responsible to their professions and to the public, or should they be individuals appointed purely for their management ability and accountable solely to Ministers?
The noble Lord reminded us that the Consultative Document states fairly—I would say it almost boasts too loudly—that the essential basic difference between this Government's proposals and those of their predecessor is the emphasis they place on effective management; hence the almost total exclusion of direct professional and democratic participation in the planning and day-to-day running of the Service, both at regional and at area board level; and hence the decision in paragraph 16 to continue the present unsatisfactory and completely undemocratic system of Ministerial appointment to the proposed new regional authorities, compared to the Green Paper, Mark II, proposals to create area boards comprising one-third nominated by local authority members, one-third by the health professions and one-third only appointed directly by Ministers for their special knowledge and experience of the Service itself. Now, apparently, the area boards are to comprise some local authority members—the number is still unknown; one from the university, and two where they include a teaching district, and the rest, as the noble Lord reminded us, appointed by the regional authorities.
I was very glad to hear that the noble Lord and his right honourable friend have taken note of the widespread criticism which they have received on this aspect of their proposals. But we are told in the Consultative Document that the reasons why the Secretary of State considers it inappropriate for the new health authorities to be composed on a representational basis, as outlined in the Green Paper Mark II proposals, are because they
"…will have important and complex management functions to perform, demanding of their members skill and experience of a sort that will enable them to give guidance and direction on regional or area objectives to their staff…
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It would therefore be inappropriate for the authorities to be composed on the representational basis…"
Like many of your Lordships, some of whom will be speaking in the debate to-day, who have served as members of local authorities, I take the greatest exception to the thesis that democratic control and efficiency are, by definition, incompatible in a public service. If we really believed that, thousands of people throughout the country would not give voluntarily of their time and energies to providing and seeking to improve services such as health, education and housing for the communities they represent. If we really have no faith in the efficiency of democracy, why on earth do we have local government at all, and why are we about to reform and revitalise it? If, as the noble Lord said, management ability is to be the criterion for selection and appointment, can the noble Lord perhaps describe to us the kind of person he and his right honourable friend have in mind?
For example, would a mere housewife who is presumably concerned with the day-to-day management of her home and family, qualify? Does the noble Lord really think that people of the high managerial ability that he appears to be looking for will give the time needed to manage the Health Service without any payment whatsoever? I recognise that it is really the dominant Treasury concern, to continue direct central control over public expenditure financed by taxes and contributions, that lies at the heart of these proposals. But I believe, in spite of all the noble Lord said at the outset, that they are based on a total misconception and confusion of the policy-making role of the appointed or elected members on public bodies, and of the day-to-day management functions of the full-time administrative and professional staff.
I shall not detain the House by enlarging further on this major point of difference, but I sincerely hope that the Minister and his right honourable friend will take account of the very widespread criticisms which they are receiving on every side, regardless of Party, from all who are concerned with the future development of the Service, and will think again

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about the membership of these authorities. In spite of the noble Lord's reassurances, I still find the proposed membership and functioning of the community health councils, as described in paragraph 20 of the Document, toothless and vague and really lacking any real powers. Furthermore, they are surely no true substitute for real local participation in the administration of health services, as set out in the proposals in the Green Paper Mark II. As to the suggestion in paragraph 20 that, in the present Government's view, our proposals would lead
"to a dangerous confusion between management on the one hand and the community's reaction to management on the other,"
I can only say that I must be used to living dangerously, because surely this is exactly what democracy is about.
The other main area outlined in the Consultative Document, apart from the proposed structure and organisation in this very crucial issue of membership of the new Health Service authorities, on which I wish to touch to-day concerns the all too brief and vague references in paragraphs 21 and 22 to the future of the family practitioner services. They are, without doubt, the absolute foundation of any progressive Health Service which seeks to be community, rather than hospital, oriented and dominated. I hope that the Government will give full consideration in this context to the two excellent Reports which have recently been published, one by the Secretary of State's own Central Health Services Council's Sub-Committee on Group Practice; and the other by the Planning Unit of the B.M.A. on Primary Medical Care, which set out in some detail the way forward in this field. The objective here must surely be to enable the family practitioner to provide the essential continuity to the health care of each individual patient and family, with his health team mobilising the range of services needed for both caring and curing across the administrative frontiers.
The main growing point here is the development of group practice and health centres. The last Government's health centre building programme resulted in the 17 health centres that we inherited in 1964 being expanded to some 191, with a further 99 under construction and 69
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in planning stages. I was delighted to hear the noble Lord tell us last Monday, that some of the additional £118 million which his right honourable friend has cleverly managed to extract from an always unwilling Treasury is to be spent on the development of health centres. I hope he will be able to tell us at the end of the day just where the Government see the health centre building programme in terms of priorities, and whether they are prepared to continue the previous Government's policy of never refusing loan sanction for a viable health centre development.
I looked in vain in the Consultative Document for a sign that relationships and attitudes between family doctors and hospital doctors were as powerful an influence for the changes which we consider necessary in the pattern of health care as the administrative structure, but merely found instead the somewhat ambiguous and rather vague references to the general practitioner's contractual relationships being exercised through a separate statutory committee at area level, with direct links with central Government for finance, and to the fact that the area health authority would be closely concerned with plans for the development of the general practitioner services. This scarcely sounds like the integrated community-based system we all believe to be necessary if we are to develop the more balanced and more effective services in the community. Can the noble Lord tell us, for example, whether any family doctors as such will be appointed to the new regional health authorities, where the critical decisions under this dispensation are undoubtedly going to be made; or, are they merely going to be relegated to their own separate statutory committee?
My Lords, there are many other matters that I should have liked to mention, but although our new clocks have not yet been installed I am very conscious of the large number of noble Lords waiting to speak and I have little doubt that they will take these matters up far more effectively than I could. When discussing the future of the Health Service, like the noble Lord I am always deeply conscious of the great numbers of men and women whose skill and services are essential to. its very existence, let alone its future development. Fortunately, the Briggs

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Committee will be reporting, I hope some time this year, on the results of their study in depth on the role and function of the nurse in the integrated service of the future; and I know that my noble friend Lord Garnsworthy will be speaking later on in this debate, from his great knowledge and experience, of the problems of reorganisation as they affect staff and as they affect training, basic and in-service, inter-professional training and, indeed, about the Whitley system, which was the subject recently of an Unstarred Question in this House.
To my mind, some of the most serious omissions of all include the lack of any reference to the need for a Health Commissioner or similar machinery to deal with complaints, especially after the recommendation of the committee which inquired into Farleigh Hospital and which reported only last April that
"a health commissioner, given the widest possible powers, should be appointed urgently to meet public anxiety about the investigation of complaints in the Health Service".
Nor is there any indication from the Government whether they intend to recognise the remarkable and outstanding achievements of the Hospital Advisory Service, under the able direction of Dr. Baker, by extending similar services to other hospitals and health service institutions in the new Health Service in the future. I have mentioned only a few of the areas where the Government's proposals fall short of creating the truly integrated and consumer-oriented service which we all wish to see; and my noble friend Lord Champion, who will be speaking later on to-night, will be dealing specifically with the proposals in the Consultative Document as they relate to Wales. I am certainly envious, my Lords, of their proposed one-tier system, with the areas being the prime units both for planning and for providing the services, their budgets being directly allocated by the Secretary of State.
I would only conclude by expressing my very deep concern that we should not lose this opportunity, which may not occur again for many years, to create a truly flexible and modern comprehensive service for future generations. I was glad, therefore, to hear from the noble Lord that this is a truly Consultative Document, and that the Government have taken note, are taking note, and will con
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tinue to take note of the widespread criticism it has received, and are prepared to think again before we see the promised White Paper on which the legislation will be based.
3.34 p.m.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, like most other noble Lords in this House I, too, welcome the idea that the National Health Service is to be integrated into one, and I was hoping that when this Document came out it might contain a little more detail than it does of the way the integration is to be brought about. But I am bound to say that I read the Document with a feeling of considerable disappointment, because its views appear to be rather limited and. though possibly one is asking too much at the present time, there appears to be singularly little reference to patient care. My Lords, we must not exalt the management expertise above all clinical experience, because I am sure your Lordships will agree that it is the work and the morale, as one might say, of the individual doctor, whether he is working in practice, whether he is working in the hospital service or whether he is working in the community service, that will really determine the success of the Health Service in the future.
Perhaps I am wrong—perhaps I read more into the Document than I should —but I wonder whether management ability should be, as it appears to be, almost the sole criterion for the selection of the members of the health authority. Management surely must be coupled with some knowledge of the needs of the area and with independent sources necessary to decide in what kind of way these needs can best be met. Therefore I hope it will be true that the majority of the members of the authority will be taken from among local people. As to whether they be appointed by local authorities or not, I have no particular views, but I think they should certainly come from among local people, with knowledge of what the local needs are in their part of the world. That is why I rather regret the disappearance of the boards of governors of the teaching hospitals, and of the management committees. I have not a great deal of knowledge myself of management committees, although I did serve on one for a short period of time. Many noble Lords who are to speak will

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know far more about them than I do, but I feel that their value was very great because they were composed of local people dealing with local problems.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I am sorry if I am interrupting unduly, but I can give the noble Lord the absolute assurance that these will be local people; that they will come from the area. They are not going to be imposed from elsewhere.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I am very pleased to have that assurance. It takes some of the disappointment from me. But it is not very clear in the Consultative Document because, there again, one wonders (as indeed I think the noble Baroness did, too) what exactly is going to be the purpose of the community health council, and what will become of the annual report which they are called upon to produce. There is not a great deal of point in producing a report if nobody is going to take any notice of it. It occurred to me, seeing that there is no mention in the Document of dealing with complaints about the Health Service, whether the community council might possibly be a body which might deal with that sort of problem.
The other thing which disappoints me about the Document is that there is no mention, or not a great deal of mention, of the change in the position of the general practitioners, and of their being integrated more into the Service. So far as I can see at the present time, the proposal is that they should carry on in roughly the same kind of way as they are doing at present, and that they will be more looked after by something like the executive committees than by being part of a really integrated Health Service. The same thing applied, I thought, to the school health service, although the noble Lord said something about that which may make a change. But the same thing also applies to the occupational health service, and to that small service, which I should have thought would have been part of the Health Service a long time ago, the prison health service, which so far as I know goes on in the same kind of way.
Those, my Lords, are my criticisms of the Document, but I must say that I have one or two things that I should like to say in favour. One of the first things is
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that I am sure it is a good thing for the teaching hospitals to be associated with teaching districts and to have community responsibilities. That, I think, has been the practice in Scotland from the start of the Health Service; and certainly in London one or two of the teaching hospitals assumed this function some time ago. They found it advantageous because it brought more into the community, because it brought a larger number of patients to be treated—and you must have patients to treat if you are going to teach young doctors to practise medicine.
One would like to see the Service begin to take more responsibility for chronic and long-term illness. It has always seemed to me a mistake that the hospitals should appear to be (as they do at the present time) a place to where acutely sick people should go to for a short time and then be rapidly discharged so what might appear to be the sole criterion for the success of a hospital is the speed or size of its turn-over. Sick people require treatment, whether the sickness is short or long; and I am rather sorry that there has not been much mention of that particular subject in the Document we are now discussing.
Of course, there is the good news which came the other day when the Government announced that a considerable amount of money was going to be given to the care of elderly and of the mentally sick. One is pleased to see money given in that way, given in quite big sums to specific objectives and not generally spread rather thinly over a large number of subjects. It is good at the same time to know that the old workhouses are at last going to be pulled down. It is time that this was done, and one cannot help levelling some criticism at the local authorities for not carrying out what was enjoined upon them by the National Assistance Act 1949. At last it looks as if that is going to be put right; but provision will still be needed in quite a big way for long-term sickness or chronic sickness. One was very pleased to find in the Bonham-Carter Report some time ago that there was going to be a place for geriatrics in the new district general hospital. That, I am sure, is right but I think it means that more accommodation will be needed for these elderly persons than can be given in the district general hospitals.

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I wonder whether one should also mention (I know that it is not in the Paper) the use of the smaller hospitals in the country, the so-called cottage hospitals, the so-called general practitioner hospitals. Could not these be put more in the care of the general practitioners as places where they could treat those of their patients whom it was not possible to treat in their own homes? This would save them from being sent a long way to the district general hospital. We need to have a pretty close tie-up with the district general hospitals, so that the best kind of medical treatment and care may be available, when required, to people in smaller hospitals. Another point of importance about that is that it would be a good thing for the general practitioner to feel that he had a hospital where he could treat patients when required. It might also have some kind of effect on the number of doctors who want to go abroad and practise in other parts of the world.
We were told at one time that it was no longer economic to run these little hospitals; but I think that that view is changing now. Certainly it would be wrong to run the National Health Service entirely on economic and business management lines. While the Service must be efficient and effective, one must look a little beyond that aspect. As the noble Baroness said, one does not want to bring the techniques and rules of industry and business into running the National Health Service. What is needed is something more of humanity and compassion. I agree that the economic side and the managerial side is important, but it should not play too big a part in developing the Service along the lines that we are discussing at the present time.
3.45 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LICHFIELD: My Lords, I took the libery of putting down my name to speak in this debate because since the appointed day for the National Health Service Act I have had the privilege of serving, almost without a break, either on the board of governors of a hospital or on a Regional Hospital Board, and in past years on the executive council; so I am deeply interested in this subject. I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for introducing this Motion to-day and for the manner in
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which he did so. I should like also to take the opportunity to express the gratitude that many of us feel to the noble Baroness, Lady Serota, for the part she played when she was a Minister of State at the Department. We remember with gratitude many of the things that she did in those days.
I find myself in general agreement with the thesis of the Consultative Document that more integration is obviously now needed in the National Health Service and that at the present time its various components are too much in watertight compartments. But I think we ought to keep a sense of proportion in this. Efforts have been made (I think more than is generally recognised) to overcome this difficulty of the watertight compartment. For instance, in the region in which I serve, that of Birmingham, a very large number of general practitioners have appointments in our hospitals. But after more than twenty years there is an obvious need for an overhaul of the Service.
Before we look forward, however, I think it might be right to look back and to say that without doubt there has been a transformation since the appointed day in 1948. Of course weaknesses remain, and there is need for some improvement—and may I say that the additional money now forthcoming will be most welcome in regard to improvements at some of the smaller hospitals. But it is right that we should remember what has been achieved. In my view, our National Health Service is without question the best in the world. Let us remember that all our people have access to the best possible hospitals and medical treatment. The new buildings which have been erected and the improvements which have been made to the old buildings have been possible only as a result of the influx of large amounts of public money; they could never have been done in any other way.
Above all I should like to pay tribute, as has already been done today by previous speakers, to the staffs, of all categories, of the Health Service. We now have more of them; they are well trained and better deployed. Occasionally, with much publicity, there are critical references to the treatment of patients by staff. In this imperfect world that sort of thing will sometimes happen,

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and when it does it should be publicised and should be carefully probed. But I do not think it is always appreciated how carefully complaints are already probed. I have served for a number of years on the General Purposes Committee of the Birmingham Region, and I know of the way in which the complaints, when they come in, are most carefully looked at; and, moreover, courteously dealt with. I think that that should he said. Although there may be occasionally these difficulties which lead to complaints, what we have to be thankful for is that in general there is a very high level of professional and humane behaviour on the part of the staff. And as I know very well, being a clergyman, many people who have been under treatment in various ways have been extremely grateful for what has been done for them.
So, my Lords, I would plead that, now that we are in this time of uncertainty and change, we should treat our staffs really well. There is much uncertainty among the staffs at the present time. A number are very concerned. It is all very well to say to a man, "Of course, you will help us very much in this transition period, but you may be working yourself out of a job at the same time." I would plead that this uncertainty should be removed as soon as possible, and I very much welcome the proposal about a Staff Commission. As the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, has already said, it cannot be set up at this stage but there is to be this preliminary work about which I was thankful to hear. Nobody can do his best work when he is feeling insecure. I would therefore ask that every effort should be made—and here I am thinking mainly of the administrative staff—to avoid redundancies. I hope that we shall give compensation on a generous scale, and that people's pensions will be looked after adequately. That kind of treatment now would be only fair to a splendid body of men and women.
To make the new system work, obviously, it has to be fully integrated. I should like to support this Consultative Document, as opposed to the recent Green Paper, regarding the attitude to the regional health authority. I do not think that in the Green Paper the regional authority was given anything like enough prominence. While in the Health Service we must be careful not to let the hospital
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side come too much into the picture, nevertheless surely it should be seen that the Regional Hospital Boards have accumulated a mass of experience, and it would be a great pity to lose it. Also I believe that the system of a Regional Board and a hospital management committee has on the whole worked very well.
I have heard the objection made that this extra tier of authority is not needed in the sphere of education, where the Department of Education and Science deal direct with the various local authorities, so why should it be needed here? I should not have thought that the two were strictly similar. After all, in connection with education there is the University Grants Committee. Also I should have thought that there are some aspects of the Health Service which need wider application than can be given by the area boards. For instance, might it not be said that the consultative services would come better under the regional authority than under the area board? I should have thought that the same might he said regarding blood transfusions. I would strongly support the proposal, which both the Government and also the Opposition have supported, that the boundaries of the area health authorities and the local authorities should be the same, because that will make it possible for their work to be linked in a way which could not be done otherwise.
I think, my Lords, that the criticism that the document is over-concerned with administration is probably valid. I hope that it will be remembered that integration is needed in all departments of the Health Service and not merely in the sphere of administration. Here I come to what I think is the spearhead of the Health Service; that is, the health centre. This is in the front, and it has to be fully supported by the district general hospital. Of course, this is a new development, and one speculates as to the size of the health centre of the future. One of my friends, in considering this matter, went to Holy Writ, and found that in the Book of Deuteronomy, Chapter 1, verse 15, it was advocated that there should be "captains over tens," and he thought that probably ten was the right number of doctors to have in a new health centre. But there our doctors must be supported by all the ancillary services. In that way our manpower will be used to the best possible

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advantage; and what one hopes for as we look into the future is a great amount of interchange all the time between the health centre and the district general hospital, with the general practitioners going into the hospital and the consultants and nurses coming out of the hospital into the health centre, so that the patient will receive treatment from a team.
All the members of that team have to be shown that their own contribution is necessary, and I hope that will be strongly pressed forward. At the moment I do not think that the development of health centres is going ahead very strongly. Surely here we see a close liaison between the area health authority and the local authority as being vitally necessary, for the personal social services must be linked with this. This includes voluntary services also. I think that there is still a wealth of good will and desire to serve which is not always being fully tapped, and the community must be encouraged to play its part. The Churches are giving careful thought to this matter. We are passing the whole of our work with regard to hospitals, and so on, under review. We have just appointed a working party on the subject under the chairmanship of that distinguished doctor and Professor of Medicine at Leeds University, Sir Ronald Tunbridge. We hope that this working party will aid us considerably in the part we ought to play in this new structure.
But whatever is done, as we think of this work of the community on behalf of those who need that assistance, let us try to give the attention we should give to the under-privileged. I was glad to hear the noble Lord, Lord Amutree, speak about the elderly. Let us see to it that those who do not know what benefits they can get shall be helped to get them. Let us look after the young and the elderly and all those who need our help. There are many anxious, lonely people about who need our assistance and who need to he shown that in the National Health Service we have not merely efficiency but real humanity. To achieve the results that we want to achieve all the resources of the community must be mobilised. We must aim at real participation by the community and so I should like to say how strongly I support the idea that there should be this community health council.
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The new official set-up, as we see it pictured in the Consultative Document, obviously will be very different from the old, and the emphasis is very much on managerial expertise. We have heard the criticisms that have been made with regard to the method of the appointment of members. I would support some of that criticism to a considerable extent, but I believe that if we have this new, rather managerial, set-up it will be workable only if the community health council is shown to be not just window dressing. So the members of that council have to be carefully chosen and appointed. They must be seen to matter, because, as we all know, the word "consult" can mean a lot or it can mean almost nothing at all. I therefore attach considerable importance to the statement in the Consultative Document that the community health council should furnish an annual report. It is also very good that its members should have access to hospitals.
May I ask that in regard to the community health council the Churches should be allowed to play a continued part? In the past we have done so, and I have mentioned my own personal experience. In this new set-up I think that people like me are going to fade out of the picture; but we can play our part in the community health council and I hope that we shall be allowed to do so. After all, there is an age-old link between the work of healing and the Church, and I hope that it will be preserved. In general, the National Health Service must be human and understand human problems. Now I am not saying that our administrators arc not human. I have the privilege of knowing a number of them and I know that they are human. Nor am I saying that this new management structure will not be human, because I believe that its members will endeavour as best they can to put humanity into it. Nevertheless, the emphasis is on this management ability, and I would plead that consultations with the community health councils should be a reality, and seen to he such.
The Minister stated in his opening speech, as it is stated in the Document, that the new system is starting in April,1974. In other words, there is little time to lose. I hope, therefore, that it will prove possible to set up the shadow authorities before very long. After all, they have a great deal to do in planning for

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the future and we want the transition to be smooth. I am sure that all concerned will help in regard to that.
As I come to my conclusion, I would repeat that great things have been achieved in the past and—let it be said with thanksgiving—the health of the nation is extraordinarily good. Much anxiety has been removed from the lives of millions of people. I hope, therefore, that when we have got over the transitional period and the new system comes into being, we shall be able to go forward with hope and confidence, because, as the noble Baroness, Lady Serota, said, if we lose the opportunity now of really doing what ought to be done, we may not get a similar opportunity for years ahead. Those of us who have had the privilege of serving in various places in the Health Service in these last years have been proud to do so and look forward with hope to a still brighter future which will do still more for the welfare of the people of our nation.
4.2 p.m.
LORD AUCKLAND: My Lords, due to a very close family bereavement and to commitments arising from this, it was not possible for me to be in my place when this debate opened. I must apologise to the House for not being present. Also, for similar reasons, it will not be possible for me to be here for the closing stages of the debate. But since my family and I have had a close connection with the hospital field over many years, I thought that it would still be appropriate for me to say a few words in the debate, particularly as, due to illness, my noble friend Lord Grenfell is unable to take part in these proceedings.
I shall be brief because there are only one or two points to which I should like to refer. I gave my noble friend Lord Aberdare notice of the main gravamen of my remarks; namely, the communications between the voluntary bodies and the professional bodies in the light of this Consultative Document. There are a number of noble Lords who, like myself, serve on the house committees of hospitals. As your Lordships will know, I serve on the house committee of one of the seven mental hospitals in the Epsom area, a hospital about which my noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady
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Scrota, know. I should like to endorse the tribute paid to the noble Baroness by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Lichfield for the work which she did when in Office and to add my tribute to the splendid work which my noble friend Lord Aberdare is doing now.
The success or failure of this Document, which I believe in almost every way is an admirable one, will depend on this co-operation between voluntary and professional bodies. It is important for voluntary bodies to continue, not only the house committees but also the leagues of friends of hospitals and so on, always, of course, with the condition that the professional bodies must have the final say. Clearly the hospital secretaries and other administrators must have the final word on any projects which are envisaged. This is particularly true to-day, when we have more and more psychiatric wards in general hospitals, which mean more work for the staffs of both bodies. Surely it is here that the work of the voluntary committees, in liaison with the professional bodies, will really come into its own.
May I add my tribute to the Government for allowing the extra £118 million to be spent on the National Health Service? Of course, those of us who know the older hospitals will recognise (though I do not wish to be at all cheese-paring here) that in the last resort this will only skim the surface. One has only to visit and to go down the long corridors of a hospital like Leavesden, in Herts, to see how much renovation is needed.
While we pay the utmost tribute to the devoted staffs who work these hospitals, not only the nurses and doctors but also the chaplains and all others, we must also recognise the problem of getting recruits for these old hospitals, particularly when we read, as we sometimes do in the newspapers, or see on television, accounts of improper treatment of hospital patients. Nobody condones such conduct, and it is right that these cases should be brought to account in the appropriate circumstances; but they should not be blown up, as they often are, by some of our communication media, though we may accept that perhaps they do it with the best of motives. But for the morale of the Health Service —and I believe that on the whole the

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morale of our Health Service is very good, despite the difficulties which it faces—these outbursts do no good at all.
I think that the idea of these community health councils is an excellent one. The more the general practitioner is able to come into contact with the hospital service and vice versa, the better, because in the long run it is communication between the two which counts. May I finally say that it is the various boards, combined with the voluntary services, which I hope will continue, which will give the working of this Consultative Document the success which it deserves to achieve.
4.10 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, I am sure that I am speaking on behalf of the whole House when I extend to the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, our sympathy on his great loss; and I want to say how proud we are that, nevertheless, he has been able to come here and make an important contribution to this debate.
I regard this Paper we are discussing to-day as a rather curious document, which places undue emphasis on management. This suggests to me that it has been drafted by individuals more familiar with the office desk than with the consulting room couch or doctor-patient relationship. There is so little reference to the needs of the patients, and the part which key workers, like doctors, nurses and those millions in the National Health Service can play.
Therefore I regard the title of the Paper, National Health Service Reorganisation, as a complete misnomer. I feel that those responsible for this concept of the National Health Service have little insight; otherwise they would recognise that it is at the top where the blame should be placed for managerial inefficiency, which I believe is of a gross kind, and to which I propose to refer. For example, spending millions of pounds on institutions for the aged before providing a comprehensive domiciliary service indicates to me waste and inefficiency. It is really putting the cart before the horse—and a very expensive cart at that. In doing this, there is a lack of understanding of the needs of the aged
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sick, who pray at the end of their day, as they have never prayed before, that they may die in familiar surroundings and, if possible, with at least one relative by their side.
I attach great importance to domiciliary care, and it seems unrealistic in this Paper to separate the administration of health visiting and home nursing from that of the home help and other social care which, according to the Paper, will remain the responsibility of local authorities. I should have thought that, particularly in the interests of the aged, there should be close co-operation between the home nurse and the home help, both on the personal and the administrative level. We all know that in most houses where there is a chronically sick person the main thing that the member of the family chiefly responsible for the sick person wants is a good home help. I think she should be regarded as an integral part of the nursing service. There should be, in my opinion, this common administrative control.
We were told on the radio last week—I remember it was early in the morning—that the hospital casualty services in the Isle of Thanet were closed, and that an accident emergency would have to be taken 18 miles to Canterbury for treatment. As everybody knows, that is when time is the very essence of the exercise. This deplorable state of affairs cannot be traced to the failure of managerial responsibilities in the Thanet Health Service. It is in my opinion an indication of the failure at the Elephant and Castle level, where every effort should be made to provide more doctors.
I have been in Parliament for 30 years and I remember the Willink Committee being set up. We all sat hopefully thinking that now a recommendation would be made and that more doctors would be provided. On the contrary, the recommendation was that the number of medical students should be reduced. This was years ago, and still we are desperately short of doctors. According to The Times to-day, the junior hospital doctors are once more in revolt because they are having to work 100 hours per week. They are so exhausted that the hospitals feel that the doctors are unable to give the best treatment to the patients. In the third leader of The Times emphasis is again laid on this question.

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I believe that 400 doctors are emigrating every year—although I hope the number is less. We educate them, and they emigrate. To the people who say that women doctors marry, I would point out that it is men doctors who emigrate, and women doctors who remain at home with their husbands and continue to practise. That is an important point. With 400 doctors emigrating every year, efforts are made to encourage doctors to come here from other countries; and we have them coming here with so poor a command of English that sometimes in a busy out-patient department or casualty department the patient does not know what the doctor is talking about. We encourage them to leave the undeveloped countries, where their services are so desperately needed. And yet—and most people who have heard me before will know precisely what I am going to say now, including, I hope, the noble Lord, Lord Robbins—we still allow prejudice to deny a medical education to British women. I only discovered this year that this prejudice is so strong at Leeds University that in order to prevent girls from getting places in medical schools they have to attain a higher level in "A"-levels than the boys who apply. What a disgrace! Prejudice and custom so dominate the thinking of these highly intelligent and highly educated men that they have privately conspired together to insist that the girls who apply should be even more brilliant than the boys before they are considered. Rather than have women doctors, we take these doctors from these desperately poor countries, where sometimes they have one doctor to 50,000 people. As I have said over and over again, I do not know how many years it takes to change prejudice and custom in this country.
Again, I would say that the absence of managerial efficiency at the top was illustrated by the proposal that prescription charges should be related to the cost of the drugs. This would have been dismissed as socially undesirable and administratively near-impossible by any general practitioner who had spent some years seeing many patients. The Ministry would have been told that this was a non-starter. But committees were setup, doctors all over the countries were asked for their opinions, and the time and cost of these protracted discussions
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on this subject must have been immense, before the Minister admitted that he had been wrongly advised.
Then, the shortage of nurses and those engaged in professions ancillary to medicine is due to the failure to pay them adequately, which again stems from managerial inefficiency at the top.
LORD PLATT: My Lords, if I may intervene for one moment I would point out that the shortage of nurses in the United States of America is absolutely tremendous.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: The noble Lord and I have had this exchange at least half a dozen times: I make a statement about nurses, and he rises and talks about the United States. He must have learned, in his long life, that when one is pointing to an injustice it is not an excuse for that injustice to point to something that might he happening in another country, of which we are not quite sure. So perhaps we can end this perpetual discussion.
LORD PLATT: The point is that it is always related to the amount that we pay the nurses, which in the United States is immense.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: It is a silly waste of time arguing this: but has the noble Lord ever been to Los Angeles?
LORD PLATT: Yes.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: I suggest that he should go and see what young girls do there. There are a great many other things besides emptying bedpans.
I agree with the Consultative Document that the need for the integration of the Health Service is long overdue. Yet it seems from this document that the school health service and the occupational health service (and I attach a great deal of importance to this, because the incidence of accidents and disease to-day in the factories and workshops of our country is really shameful) are not to be integrated. I think that these services, and of course the Prison Service, should be integrated; but they have been ignored. And I would point out that the relationship between the hospital and the general practitioner will remain unaltered, although time after time in various debates we have urged that the

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general practitioner and the hospital should work more closely together.
Next, I come to the hotly debated question of nomination versus election. I think that most of us who reach this place have at some time come up through local authorities. I myself came up through a district authority, then a county authority and finally I was nominated as a candidate for Parliament. So we know something about these things. I should have thought the authors of this Document ought to have learnt that nominated individuals, anxious to retain their seats, frequently acquire over the years a timidity and the thinking habits of the bureaucrat and are less prepared to press for fundamental change than the elected representative. It is a very curious psychological fact that the elected representative is willing to be bold and to go out once more in the streets and try his or her luck, but if you nominate an individual he develops after a time such a pride of place that he is filled with fear and thinks, "I must behave myself so that I shall be nominated next time". This is a most important psychological reason why we should press for the elected representative.
Those of us who have been in Parliament for many years can estimate, looking at this Document, that many years will pass before these proposals are implemented, so that nothing will be lost by taking them back now. I have observed, to his credit, that the right honourable gentleman the Minister of State for Health and Social Security, when an argument is put forward, reads it, digests it and then decides for himself whether it shall go forward. The prescription charges are a case in point. There was tremendous pressure from all sides, and particularly from the Treasury; yet he judged the proposals to be a mistake and withdrew them. I suggest that the Minister might read some of the essays on the Next Decade in the National Health Service in Challenges for Change, which was commissioned by the Nuffield Provincial Hospital Trust. May I just put on record the four important points that I think should guide him? The four proposals put forward in the Introduction were:
(1) To develop a philosophy of health services where the rights, the duties and the
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expectations of every individual should be set out without political or professional bombast.
What a lovely word, my Lords!
(2)To define "a series of objectives for the National Health Service", including a theory on administration to attain them.
(3)The monitoring of the quality of health ca re.—
My Lords, how comprehensive that could be and how well that would meet so many of our doubts and misgivings!—
(4) The development of a coherent manpower policy.
And I would add to that the allocation of finance on a more practical basis.
May I just recall to the House that last week none of us knew what was coming about the millions for the institutions—and I am not blaming the Health Service: they are lucky to have got money—but every politician knew that it was given to us overnight because the Treasury felt that they had to do something about unemployment.
LORD ABERDARE LORD ABERDARE rose—
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Do not get excited!
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I am sure the noble Baroness dragged that red herring in just to get me to my feet.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: No.
LORD ABERDARE: I must correct that statement straight away. It is not so. These plans were laid a very long time ago, and it is the other amount of money, that for the infrastructure, which is concerned. We managed to get another £22 million for the health services.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: In answer to that, may I just say "touchè"? I must say, my Lords, that the criticism of this Document is not of a Party political nature. The conference in July, convened by the Royal Society of Health, was attended by hospital governors, matrons, general practitioners and local government officials; and they revealed that those closely connected with the administration of the Health Service were critical of the proposals. So I hope that the noble Lord will not feel aggrieved and feel that this is a Party political attack. It is quite clear that the criticism is coming from all directions. Therefore, in view of this, I would advise the Minister to scrap these proposals.
LORD ROBBINS: My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, may I press her on one point? She alluded to discrimination between men and women in university entrance examinations in regard to medicine. If such discrimination does take place, I assure the noble Baroness that I share her horror and contempt for those who practise it. But can she give us a little more evidence?
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Certainly. If the noble Lord had been in his place he would have heard the Question that I put in the House. I am shocked to hear of his ignorance. I think he should know me better than that. I am an old Parliamentarian and would not make a statement like that unless I was sure of my facts. This came from Leeds Medical School. I had a letter from there telling me that these were the facts. I put down a Question in the House and asked if these were the facts; and I was assured that this kind of thing would not be continued anywhere else.
LORD ROBBINS: I apologise to the noble Baroness for not being in my place on that occasion. I share her sentiments one hundred per cent.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Good. I am glad of the noble Lord's sympathy, and I am only sorry that, after that one inquiry, the investigation for which the noble Lord was responsible was not followed through; and I hope that the noble Lord will not only share my sentiments but also join in the pressure. When it comes from a woman—and the same woman—year after year, those who matter sit back and laugh and say, "That's all right; we have a majority in the House", because it is male. Perhaps the noble Lord will join with me and help in the attack so that his granddaughter and my grand-daughter will not experience the same situation.
LORD ROBBINS: My Lords, I come from an institution which has never discriminated between men and women.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: No. because the noble Lord's institution does not have medical students.
4.28 p.m.
LORD COBBOLD: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt this fascinating discussion. May I just mention first that I am
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speaking to-day, not as Lord Chamberlain, which office I hold until midday to-morrow, but as Chairman of the London Undergraduate Teaching Hospitals Committee and of the Middlesex Hospital Board of Governors and Medical School Council. I spoke in your Lordships House in March, 1970, in the debate introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Serota. I do not wish to go over all the same ground, but I should like to recall one phrase which I then used: it is a good general administrative rule not to destroy something which works fairly well without being sure that you have something better to put in its place.
Turning to the present Consultative Document, may I first express our thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and to the Secretary of State for their readiness to listen to our comments. We have had long discussions and are shortly to have more. In all these discussions our object has teen and will be to make constructive suggestions about the way in which the teaching hospitals can make the best possible contribution to a revised Health Service, both in the care of patients and in medical teaching. The observations which I have to make to-day follow generally the line which we have taken, and shall continue to take, in these discussions. It may perhaps be of interest to your Lordships that two suggestions which we put to Ministers in the early summer had the unanimous support of the chairmen of all the London undergraduate teaching hospitals. They have since been considered by the various boards of governors individually, and though in one or two cases there are some divergencies, there is overwhelming support for the suggestions we have put forward from the great majority of the boards concerned.
There is wholehearted support from the London teaching hospitals for the objectives of the Consultative Document and for integration of the Health Service. We have in particular welcomed the greater emphasis placed in this Document than in earlier proposals on the importance of medical teaching and research, on the particular difficulties in the London area, and on efficient management. The criticisms and suggestions we have put forward are not in any way directed against the objectives of the Consultative Document, but are wholly in the field of

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method and timing. I will deal with these three issues in order.
First, as I say, the Document recognises the importance of teaching and research. We have felt, however, that when it comes to method there is need of new thoughts. There is scarcely any reference in the Document to the relationship between the teaching hospitals and their associated medical schools. I must add that I have been a little disappointed to hear so little mention from earlier speakers on the two Front Benches, or elsewhere, about medical training, with the exception of an appeal for the ladies from the noble Baroness. If we do not have good doctors in the next generation we shall not have a good medical service, and what are we talking about? At the present time, with cross-representation between the responsible boards and school councils, and with day-to-day contact on the academic, medical and administrative sides, teaching hospitals and schools function practically as a single unit. In our view, which we believe to be shared by the University of London, this unity is essential to proper medical teaching. We have little doubt that this unity would be eroded by a transfer of responsibility from boards of governors, with their direct contact with the Department, to area and regional authorities not directly on the spot and inevitably and rightly more concerned with local affairs than with the national responsibilities of medical teaching.
Secondly, there is the special position of London, which is, as I have said, fully recognised in the Document. Nevertheless, it appears to be contemplated that, largely for the sake of uniformity, the same general pattern should be applied to London as to the rest of the country. If one were starting from scratch and setting out to build new hospitals, it might well be desirable to arrange for teaching hospital areas to be coterminous with boroughs. But as things are, this is to go against the facts of life. Several London boroughs have two, three or more teaching hospitals; some have none. All London teaching hospitals take patients from across borough boundaries and from outside London. Unless one knocks down a lot of hospitals and builds them elsewhere, which is clearly in no
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body's thought, the doctrine of coterminosity is not just applicable to London. Again, the London graduate teaching hospitals train some 50 per cent. of the country's doctors and therefore have a national responsibility as well as a local responsibility. Admittedly this percentage may change over coming decades. But this, I suggest, is an argument for an experimental period in London rather than for immediate uniformity throughout the country.
Thirdly, there is efficient management —always an important element in any public service. However, I agree with some speakers that in the matter of the care of patients efficient management in hospitals is not the only criterion. On the subject of efficient management I have to say that the London teaching hospitals part company. so far as they are concerned. with the proposals adumbrated in the Consultative Document. The chief executive officer of a teaching group is in control, subject to his board of governors, of some 3,000 to 5,000 people: medical, nursing, administrative, clerical, and domestic. It is a job which needs absolutely first-class men, with authoritative support on the spot from the board and chairman, and with a clear chain of command. The Consultative Document appears to suggest that in future he would have some responsibilities to a management committee, some to an area chief executive and, through him, some to a regional authority. This, with respect, would not he efficient management and would not attract first-class people to hospital administration. I would ask the noble Lord, when his London committee reconvenes, to give particular attention to this aspect.
To sum up, my Lords, what the London teaching hospitals want is to play their full part in a revised Health Service and to fulfil their national and local responsibilities as efficiently as possible. There have been big developments in the past few years, all leading in the direction of an integrated Service. We have been happy to take on district responsibilities —we work easily with local authorities —and this co-operation could be solidified by changes in the personnel of boards of governors; there is fruitful contact with the regional boards and the machinery of joint consultative committees is increasingly effective. We mostly have

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close contacts with hospitals outside the Inner London area and are anxious to extend those contacts. My Lords, I well understand the desire of Ministers for decentralisation, but I would suggest that the new regional health authorities in London will face a very heavy and complicated task in their first years. I believe that it would be a mistake at this stage to add to that task a somewhat blurred responsibility for managing teaching hospitals, or to attempt to force London prematurely into a pattern which may well suit the rest of the country.
If I may end on a positive note, I would ask Ministers to consider a two-stage operation for London. I believe that in the first stage, perhaps for an experimental five years, the Department must, either directly or through a central planning body, maintain and even increase its responsibilities in London. I believe that they should retain for this period the existing broad structure of hospital administration, but give strong impetus to the developments that I have mentioned; that is to say, district responsibility, contact with local authorities, relationships with regional authorities, with outer London, and further afield. As the two noble Baronesses have mentioned, it is also obvious that the whole basis of relationship between hospitals and general practitioners needs a thorough review and probably an experimental period. With five years' experience it might well prove sensible in stage 2 to move further towards the concept of a uniform structure throughout the country. The London undergraduate teaching hospitals will continue to do their best to safeguard their responsibilities to the community, both in the care of patients, and in the training of doctors for a future Health Service of the highest standards.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down may I say that I am extremely interested in his idea of a five-year interim period. What would happen in those five years to the health departments of the London boroughs, and the medical officers of health? Does he envisage any move there?
LORD COBBOLD: My Lords, I do not think I am competent to go into that question.
4.39 p.m.
LORD COTTESLOE: My Lords, the Consultative Document proposes a major revolution in the organisation of the National Health Service. As Sir Keith Joseph is at pains to point out in his Foreword, all the existing Health Service bodies will be swept away: the regional hospital boards, the hospital management committees, the boards of governors of teaching hospitals, the executive councils that administer the general practitioner services, the local health authorities that administer the domiciliary services—all will be swept away. They will be replaced by an entirely new structure based on area and district committees as outlined in the Document.
The purpose of this revolution is to create greater efficiency of management by decentralisation and by the integration of the three branches of the existing Services: the hospitals, the general practioner services and the domiciliary services. Let me say at once that we all unreservedly accept the concept of total health care through an integration of the three branches of the Service. But, as my noble friend Lord Cobbold pointed out in an earlier debate, and has to-day repeated—and it cannot be too often repeated—if you are throwing an existing organisation into the dustbin it is not a bad thing to make certain before you do so that the organisation you are going to put in its place will function better—not only better in theory but better in practice: that is the acid test. The more that I and many of my colleagues examine these proposals and their implications, the more doubts we feel. It is not that we regard the existing organisation as perfect—of course it is not; of course it is very far from that; but, with all its faults, it works, and on the whole works well. It looks as though the proposals outlined in this Document, whatever their virtues in theory, will not work better in practice, and in some respects will work worse; will be less efficient and perhaps also less humane. I will come back to that point in a moment.
First I must say a word about integration. If integration is to be effective it must be integration at every level right down to the grass roots. The point was

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well developed in an article by Mr. Geoffrey Smith in The Times of November 12. Now the weakest point of the present set-up, I think it would be generally agreed, is the lack of integration of the general practitioner service, the family doctor, with the hospital service. What does the Consultative Document propose? One would have expected the general practitioners to be the first to welcome the proposals, to be delighted at the prospect of their full integration into the Service by being administered by the area health authorities. But they were not and, in response to their strong objections to anything of the kind, the Document proposes in paragraph 22 a Committee set up by the area authority but dealing direct with the central Department to administer the contracts of the family practitioners. The Document even says:
with a composition like that of the present executive councils".
My Lords, "a rose by any other name …". In fact, this is the executive councils, the weakest link in the existing integration, all over again. If the proposed integration does nothing to improve the present system at its weakest point, that surely must cast grave doubts on whether the major revolution that it proposes will in practice lead to an overall improvement on the system now existing. I am bound to say that I hope the Government will give the most serious consideration, even now, before they throw the whole of the existing system overboard, to whether a better way of improving it would not be to strengthen at every level the links, formal and informal —and they are many—that have over the last quarter of a century been established between the three branches of the existing Service.
If I may now turn to the particular aspect of these proposals in which I have a special interest, the proposals for the teaching hospitals, I should like to welcome the intention, of which the Minister has told us, to hold further consultations with those concerned. The arrangements now proposed for teaching districts—they are set out in Appendix I—go some way to meet the very strong objections raised on behalf of the teaching hospitals to the proposals set out in the two previous Green Papers. They go some way in
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particular to meet the difficulties of the provincial teaching hospitals. London, as the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, has pointed out, presents special difficulties with problems of its own, owing to the great concentration of teaching hospitals, both undergraduate and postgraduate, in the Metropolitan area, and to the fact that the population they serve has largely migrated outwards from the centre.
As to the postgraduate teaching hospitals, they are all in London and they give consultant training not only to great numbers of doctors in this country but to an even greater number of doctors from abroad who come to London, drawn by these hospitals, from every part of the world for specialist training and research. They come in such numbers that more doctors come to London each year from overseas for this specialist training than the total output of new doctors of all the medical schools in the United Kingdom. I am glad that the importance and value, nationally and internationally, of the work that these hospitals do—they are a mixed bag: some large such as Hammersmith and the Maudsley; some quite small such as St. John's Hospital for Diseases of the Skin and the National Heart Hospital, now being merged with the Brompton as a cardio-thoracic centre —is appreciated and that they are, as stated in paragraph 25 of the Document, to be the subject of separate consultations. That is very necessary.
I should like to ask the Minister whether he can confirm my understanding that, for a transitional period of up to five years from the coming into effect of the proposed reorganisation in 1974, these hospitals will retain their own boards of governors, as at present, so that their special problems and their special place in the reorganised Service can be fully worked out before any new pattern for their administration is brought into being. As I say, they are a mixed hag and they will not all need to be treated in the long term in the same way. Some can stand on their own feet; some require to be closely associated, while retaining their own name and identity, with others, or with an undergraduate hospital and school.
The London undergraduate teaching hospitals, with their great traditions and honoured names, provide the greater part of the general hospital services in the

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central area of London. They present special difficulties in the proposed organisation, so much so that of course the Minister, as we know, has continued, under his own chairmanship, the Working Party sot up by the noble Baroness, Lady Serota, in the last Government, to examine the particular problems. I think we should all like to know how that Working Party is progressing, and no doubt the Minister, when he comes to reply, may be able to tell us something about that. In particular, I should like to ask him how it is proposed to arrange the London teaching districts; whether it is envisaged that in London, where the geographical areas are small, there will be, rather than teaching districts, teaching areas, so that in the Metropolitan area the organisation will have one tier less than elsewhere. That seems to me to be both natural and highly desirable. Then, what about the principle of coterminosity, to which the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, referred—a principle by which Mr. Crossman at one time set so much store but which I think he finally concluded could not be applied universally within the Metropolitan area? Do the present Government take the same flexible view? If so, it would enormously ease some of the more intractable problems of London.
How far can the Government meet the four cardinal requirements of the London undergraduate teaching hospitals, put forward unanimously by them, as set out in paragraph 4 of their memorandum of July 8 submitted to the Secretary of State? Those four cardinal requirements were: first, a direct statutory relationship with the Department and direct financial allocations—in effect the retention of something like the existing boards of governors; second, a direct relationship with their own medical schools—which is a prime necessity for teaching hospitals; third, a responsibility for the employment of their own staff, especially higher medical and administrative staff; and fourth, control over their own endowments. As to the endowments, of course, Appendix 2 to the Consultative Document deals with them in a way that is, in general, reassuring. But the memorandum of the undergraduate teaching hospitals set out constructive proposals for a system that would incorporate the other points, and I hope that the Minister may be able to tell us this evening that some
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such proposals are acceptable to the Government, or, if not, that there will be some arrangement for a transitional period for London to ensure that satisfactory arrangements can be worked out before any new system is finally brought into being.
I am, of course, especially concerned about the arrangements for my own particular hospital, Hammersmith. I apologise to the House for speaking about it, but it is the only general postgraduate teaching hospital in the country and, for that reason, has certain different features from other teaching hospitals. Clearly, it must continue to give a district service in addition to its high-powered national and international service. We all want that. Also, it will clearly have to look to the Westward, to a sector stretching outward from the centre of London, because that is where the population is. But, whereas what are known as the Todd pairs of undergratudate hospitals, like twin stars, can in some cases, if not in all, be the nuclei of teaching areas, an undergraduate and a postgraduate teaching hospital are in many ways, by their very nature, so different that I am convinced that such a pair would not make a happy working partnership. Such a pair would not be "twin stars"; it would be, if I may change the metaphor, a shot-gun marriage. As a very wise and experienced professional man said to me the other day, for Hammersmith it would be "the kiss of death". I hope that the Minister will consider whether Hammersmith Hospital could not rather itself be the focus of a Westward sector, with other district hospitals already existing in that sector, even if such an arrangement involved (as I think it must inevitably involve) some minor infringement of coterminosity.
My Lords, I could raise many other matters, but I think I have said enough on this occasion. Let me finally turn back to my opening remarks and urge the Government, before they implement the very sweeping proposals that we have in the Consultative Document, to consider most earnestly once again whether the integration of the Health Service in the interests of efficiency and humanity could not really be better effected by improving and strengthening the lateral links between its branches at all levels than by

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throwing overboard the whole existing system in order to replace it by something that may very probably, in practice, work not better but worse: in fact to proceed by a process of evolution rather than by one of revolution.
4.54 p.m.
BARONESS MASHAM OF ILTON: My Lords, it is because I believe that our nation's health should be of prime priority that I want to add my tiny contribution to to-day's debate, and I thank the noble Lord. Lord Aberdare, for this opportunity. When one has so nearly lost one's life, as I have, it is difficult not to understand the full value of life and how important it is for those who are not fortunate in having complete health to be able to develop to their full potential, and for those who are totally helpless to be protected. I will for ever be grateful to the National Health Service for the treatment I have received under its care.
As patron of the Yorkshire Faculty of the Royal College of General Practitioners, and also being associated with a medical research trust, I am greatly interested in the reorganisation of the National Health Service. I should be grateful if the Minister would clarify a part of the Consultative Document which states:
"At regional level they imply an organisation with the primary responsibility of overall planning of services and allocation of resources to the areas within the regions."
Does this mean that patients will no longer be sent for treatment other than to hospitals in their region?
Uniformity in medicine throughout the country looks good on paper, but in practice can it ever really happen? Is every region going to cover every speciality? For example, are there to be 14 hospitals in the 14 regions all dealing with tropical diseases? The geniuses who specialise seem to draw other enthusiastic doctors to work with them as a team, and if they are not going to be able to work together it will surely mean that the standard of research will be lowered. In the years to come, are our famous specialising hospitals, such as Queen Charlotte's, the Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital, the National Spinal Unit at Stoke Mandeville, and
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many others, to go? These are not only a status symbol of our high standard in this country; they bring us international prestige in world medicine. These hospitals have taken years to build up, and because they may not fit into 14 regions it would be sad to see part of our heritage vanish with the stroke of a pen. But it is good to hear that trained managers will consider, in collaboration with local authorities and voluntary organisations, the total need of their areas; and it is excellent that a strong and binding link between the Departments of Health and Social Services has been recommended. I hope wholeheartedly that these Departments will get round the table together and grow closer and closer, sharing the problems and finding ways to overcome them, rather than criticising each other.
So often I have heard of patients blocking acute beds in hospitals, it being impossible to discharge them as they have no suitably adapted homes to go to. Unless there is full co-operation and communication it will always be the patient who suffers in the end. General practitioners should find it helpful to be given better facilities for working in collaboration with other parts of the unified National Health Service and with the personal Social Services. I hope that health centres will be able to cater for many services which seem to be lacking at the present time. One which comes to my mind is the need for patients with bladder and renal complications to have their urine tested efficiently. At the moment, patients living in rural areas send the specimens to hospital through the post. This seems to be an inadequate and haphazard method. On arrival, the urine is too old for satisfactory examination. In America, it is possible to get these tests carried out at a drug store. I hope that the health centres will be equipped to deal with this kind of necessity.
For many years I have thought that the inmates of penal institutions are better able to state their grievances than in-patients at health institutions. Penal institutions have Boards of Visitors who are interested members of the public appointed by the Home Office who see that fair play is maintained. I have always found that there is good cooperation with the staff, who can depend

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on the Board's support at times of criticism from outside. Occasionally terrible things can and do go on within Health Service hospitals, and nobody seems to question them until the Press brings them out into the open, by which time a great deal of harm has occurred and bad publicity results. Perhaps the setting up of community health councils will do something to help the situation.
My Lords, emphasis has been put on the preventive as well as the curative aspects of illness, and this is excellent. Every one of your Lordships has two things in common—being horn and dying. The midwifery service seems to be rather good, but nothing has been mentioned in the Document about dying. I hope that dying is not looked upon as a failure. Dying in dignity, with as little stress as possible, should he one of the services given under the National Health Service. I hope that the Ministry will look closely at the conditions in which people die and the facilities given to this important aspect in their hospitals.
I am sure that no sensible person would ever dispute the fact that good management is essential to run a large organisation, especially one so complicated and important as the National Health Service. But to this new-look, efficient and vigorous Service I hope that the Minister and his Department will remember to add a dash of T.L.C. A great many of the people who will come under this great Department will be the old and the frail, and the mentally ill and the dying. Some of your Lordships may not know what T.L.C. means, as it has not been mentioned in this Document: it is "tender loving care."
5.2 p.m.
LADY RUTHVEN OF FREELAND: My Lords, I also should like to add my thanks to my noble friend, Lord Aberdare, for giving us this opportunity of discussing the Consultative Documents. I expect many of us who have worked with hospitals for some time have been worried: the Document came out in May and we knew nothing more about it until to-day. To me it was a very bony structure, and thank goodness what the Minister has said has clothed it a little, but really not quite enough. I wondered whether I should speak about the parts of the hospital service which I know about—I was on the board of governors
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of a post-graduate teaching hospital, a regional board and seven hospital management committees, three being psychiatric—but I decided to speak on something quite different. I want to look at the Consultative Documents from the point of view of the person who is the most important element of the whole Health Service, however organised, but who is not mentioned at all in the Documents that is to say, the patient. I was delighted that the noble Baroness, Lady Serota, mentioned this aspect, too.
I feel I should explain to your Lordships why I think I have a right to speak for the patient. I am the Chairman of the National Association of Leagues of Hospital Friends, which is a central organisation to which are affiliated nearly 850 individual leagues of hospital friends working in some 1,400 hospitals throughout England and Wales and in parts of Scotland. In quantitative terms, we estimate that about 70 per cent. of the beds in the National Health Service in England and Wales are served by affiliated leagues. These leagues vary in size and the tasks they undertake, but I may summarise their objects as being to benefit the patients and former patients of their hospitals who are sick, convalescent, disabled, handicapped, infirm or in need of financial assistance, and generally to support the charitable work of their hospitals by providing service and amenities for both patients and staff.
The activities of leagues of hospital friends fall into two main categories: fund raising and personal service. As fund raisers, they have about one million member subscribers, and they also approach the general public through a wide variety of fund-raising activities. As a result of their efforts they are able to make gifts to their hospitals worth £1½ million a year, gifts ranging from Christmas cards and birthday presents for friendless, long-stay patients, to major facilities such as recreation centres, intensive care units, physiotherapy departments and even operating theatres. About 80,000 friends are actively engaged in giving personal service to their hospitals. Here again the range is wide and varied: visiting patients, running trolley shops and canteens, entertaining long-stay patients, and many other services in the wards and other parts of their hospitals. As National Chairman of this organisation.

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which is, I think, representative of the community from which the patients come, I feel I can claim to be representative of those many people in the community who are concerned for the welfare of the sick and those who care for them, and that I may speak for the patient.
The Consultative Document lays great emphasis on management ability. Paragraph 14 says:
"Management ability will be the main criterion for the selection of members"
of the new regional and area authorities. I think there is a great danger in taking this too far. In the world of business and commerce it is comparatively easy to test the reaction of your customers; you have a product, and so long as customers buy your product in sufficient quantities then your product is good; when people do not, then there is something wrong with it. I cannot see how this type of customer reaction can work in the Health Service. People do not go to doctors and hospitals because they want to but because they have to, and it is impossible to measure the efficiency of the Service by the amount of business that it does. People have to turn to the National Health Service when they are ill because, for the vast majority, there is no alternative; there is a virtual monopoly in the Health Service. How can you measure its efficiency by the volume of complaints and criticism that is received from the customer? Because it seems to be the case—and I am sure your Lordships who have worked on regional boards and hospital management committees et cetera will know this—that in hospitals, at any rate, unless a very major mistake has been made and an inquiry has to he instituted, patients do not complain. Most patients are so grateful for the care and attention they receive from individual doctors and nurses that they do not like to complain about the things that do not go right for fear of appearing to be ungrateful to the individuals who have been kind to them.
To a large extent the point of view of the patient has been catered for, up to now, by including ordinary men and women as members of the boards and committees running the present hospital service. But for the future the Document quite categorically separates the management and the representational functions;
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management is to manage and the presentation of the needs of the customer is to be something quite apart. This is indeed a brave concept. Whether or not it works to the satisfaction of the patient seems to depend on the effectiveness of the new community health councils (paragraph 20 in the Document). The obvious importance of these councils is not made clear in the Documents. My noble friend, Lord Aberdare, did say a word about what these councils would consist of, but I should like to know a little more than he has told us about their role and methods of working. I would ask my noble friend whether he could explain more to us about these councils. From reading the Documents, it appears that they are to be set up by the area health authorities, but is it right that management should appoint its own critics? Is there not a danger that the watchdog may degenerate into a lapdog? These councils are to be consulted on the development and operation of the local health services, but do they have to wait to be consulted, or are they to have the right to initiate their own approaches to the health authority on any matter which they think is their concern and will be of benefit to the patient? They are to produce an annual report, which I think is excellent; but do they have to wait until the end of the year before they report that everything or anything is going wrong in the hospital?
There are many more questions one could ask about these new community health councils, but in the end it all comes to this: that although the Document deliberately separates management from the community's reaction to management, the two elements are in fact interdependent and equally important. After all, you cannot know whether or not you are running an efficient Service unless you know that the community is satisfied with it. But the Document is vague about the functions of the councils and their methods of communication with management. What I think one is left with is the impression that the councils will not have much of a role, and will have only a tenuous communication with management. Certainly the councils as described in the Document are not likely to attract people of the right calibre as members. I wonder whether in the new Health Service there is a place for the voluntary organisations, and I am hoping that some

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of our leaders or representatives might be selected far service on the community councils. Unless these Councils are given more and stronger teeth, however, none of us will wish to serve on them, although, as I said earlier, we do represent the community for whom the Health Service was conceived.
I am encouraged by what the Minister has said to hope that these Councils will be strengthened. I note with pleasure that in paragraph 5 of the Document it is stated that collaboration with the voluntary organisations will continue. It is at the level of the community that I feel we could help, and the Document faces these, our voluntary organisations, of which my national association is only one member, with new challenges and new opportunities. Up to the present, the three parts of the Health Service have been run in separate compartments, and the voluntary organisations have tended to follow suit. But there is now to be this very welcome change to the new concept of continuity of patient care, whether by G.P., by local authorities, or in the hospitals. I should like to ask my noble friend whether there should not be continuity of care across the whole spectrum of the voluntary organisations. This is something that needs to be discussed within and between voluntary organisations, and between them and the statutory bodies concerned.
Finally, I must remind your Lordships' House that the Health Service, whatever its organisation, exists to serve the patient, and for no other purpose. It is disappointing that the Consultative Document, although it has plenty to say about management, does not mention the patient at all. I hope very much that the patient's point of view has not been entirely forgotten, and that the community health councils will be made into really effective bodies, attracting as members men and women of the highest calibre, and capable of seeing that the community gets the Health Service it needs. Before I sit down, may I add my thanks to my noble friend Lord Aberdare for the Statement he made to your Lordships' House on November 22? I was unable to catch his eye, so I could not say how delighted I was to hear that the Secretary of State has been able to produce a good deal more money to be spent on the psychiatric, subnormal and geriatric parts of the
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Health Service. I have always been particularly interested in those three parts of the Health Service, and I am very glad that this additional money has been allotted to improve these services. I would stress the hope that if any of this money is given to local authorities it will be explicitly earmarked to this purpose.
5.15 p.m.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, like the noble Lady who has just resumed her seat, I, in common with all Members of your Lordships' House, welcomed very much the Statement made last week about the considerable amount of money to be made available for the improvement of the Service. The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, in moving the Motion, anticipated a wide-ranging debate, and I think he is getting it. He also anticipated that he might be asked a number of questions. He is getting those, and I expect that before I finish I shall be asking one or two more. May I say that when the noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Ilion, was speaking, I felt that she had not only our attention but also our particular sympathy when she touched on the subject of dying. She put it in a way that all of us would wish to echo, and I believe that in saying what she did she rendered a very distinct service.
My noble friend Lady Serota, who was the second speaker in the debate, made a speech that I thought was extremely well-informed and, at the same time, very probing. I should like to give my support to the many points that she made in regard to the structure of the Service and its accountability (if I may put it that way) to the customer. She referred to the time-table laid down for consideration and comment by those representing interested organisations within the Service. It was a fairly tight time-table, and one hopes that it was not intended as an indication of future procedures. If goodwill is to be obtained—and surely this is a Service where goodwill is vital—there must be effective consultation. If there is to be effective consultation—that is to say, consultation with staff interests—there must be adequate time. The Consultative Document was issued on May 17 this year, and comments were required by the end of July. The position was made no easier by the very few copies of the Document that were then available. I understand that the Staff side of the General Whitley

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Council had five copies to cover distribution to 47 organisations. I speak this afternoon with particular concern for the interests of those engaged in the Service, and indeed I have a very special interest to declare, because I am associated with the National and Local Government Officers Association which caters for so many of them.
Before developing that particular aspect of the subject, I should like to raise one or two points concerning membership of authorities. I had intended dealing at some little length with paragraph 14, but the noble Lady, Lady Ruthven of Freeland, has already reminded your Lordships of what paragraph 14 sets out. May I ask the Minister, when he replies, not merely to give us some general definition of what it is that the paragraph is aiming at, but particularly to give us a definition of the words "management ability"'? A great many people are puzzled as to what the Secretary of State will be looking for. As has been said by a number of other speakers this afternoon, there is a point at which the interest of the consumer should be quite clearly protected. I think it is very important not only that it should be protected, but that it should be seen by the consumer to be protected, because there arc many people to-day who feel that they have no representative, and they do not know where to turn when they arc dissatisfied with the service which they are receiving.
Certainly, it seems that to-day too many people are appointed by somebody or other to one of the various committees, and this is one of the really great weaknesses of the present system. My noble friend Lady Summerskill spoke about the nominated members of the various boards and of the timidity which they develop. I suppose I am not the only one who has heard members of management committees and boards saying how unwise it is that they should press points too hard and for too long. While my noble friend was speaking, I was reminded of the title of one of George Bernard Shaw's plays and I thought much of it was Too True to be Good. I think it would be an advantage if all members of the area health authority were elected. But if the Secretary of State is immovable —and one gets a growing impression that too many people in charge of Depart-
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ments of State are becoming immovable and ought to take a little more notice of the advice that is tendered not only from this side of the House, but, frequently, from the other side—then I hope he will give really adequate consideration to nominations from professional bodies and trade unions operating within the new Service. In other words, they should be able to nominate who they think ought to represent their organisation.
I have a number of specific points which I want to put to the Minister and, despite what he said at the beginning, I hope that he will be able to comment on them, because I have given him notice of at least four of the five of them. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Lichfield touched on my first point, that concerning appointments of staff to posts in the new authorities. Those already in the Health Service surely have a claim here, and I know that they would welcome an assurance that all posts will be filled from their ranks; that is to say, no vacancies will he advertised outside the Service, unless and until an employing authority has demonstrated to the Staff Commission that it cannot satisfactorily fill a post from existing staff.
My second point concerns those who, for any one of a variety of reasons, may find themselves downgraded in the new set-up. Clearly, such people will be victims of reorganisation and it ought to be made quite clear, as early as possible, that if they are downgraded they will receive the pay attached to their previous higher graded post, and such future increases as may be negotiated for it. My third point is on the subject of training arrangements. I thought the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, was going to develop this point, but he did not develop it in the way I hoped he might do. I suggest that this is the time to set up a central training board to co-ordinate all training. Can we be told this evening whether the Secretary of Slate has anything at all in mind in regard to this matter?
My fourth point is that there should be no further mergers of hospital management committees until the future of the Service is more clearly defined; in other words, in this field there should be a standstill. Mergers inevitably mean unsettlement for staff, and I suggest that it is desirable to avoid repeated changes

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within a short space of time. We get no better service—rather the opposite is to be expected—if staffs face repeated harassment as a result of mergers between now and the coming into operation of the new Service, and then, after a very short time, have to compete again for posts following reorganisation. Finally, my Lords, I can see no reference in the Consultative Document to any review of the Whitley machinery covering the Service. The House debated this matter recently, when the noble Lord, Lord Reigate, initiated a debate on an Unstarred Question on October 21. I have no wish to repeat all that was said on that occasion; it is sufficient now to inquire whether Her Majesty's Government have given any further attention to what was said in that debate and to ask the Minister when he replies to state whether or not there is any intention of undertaking a review of the 'Whitley machinery. This would seem an appropriate time to do it, now that the whole Service is being considered.
If the Minister can give an assurance on those points, it will be warmly welcomed by those whose futures are inevitably affected by the reorganisation envisaged in the Document before the House. If I press the Minister for replies to those questions this evening, it is because I think the answers are important not only to me but to a very great many people who have invested their lives in the Service. They are entitled to know, and a public statement replying to the points I have put is justified.
5.28 p.m.
LORD REIGATE: My Lords, it is an exceptional pleasure for me to follow the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, my old friend and foe. Hitherto, I have always proposed, and been followed by his seconding, a vote of thanks to the returning officer on the occasion—five times—of my successful election. So I think it is only fair that, for once, I should have the latter word, if I may so put it. With some of the points which he raised I am in agreement; with some I am in mild disagreement, and I shall come to these in the course of what I have to say. One of the difficulties with these debates on the National Health Service, as I know from much past experience, is that they are all very wide-ranging. A variety of aspects are mentioned which do not neces-
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sarily make a coherent sequence in speeches. I offer a worm's eye view, as chairman of an undergraduate teaching hospital. I use the word "worm" carefully, before I am accused of having "pride of place", which I think was the phrase used by the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill; and I should like to say that I support every word that was said by my noble friend and colleague Lord Cobbold and, of course, by my noble friend Lord Cottesloe as well.
We have now had two Green Papers and a Consultative Document. In parenthesis, perhaps I might say that I think the phrase Consultative Document is a dreadful one. It is symbolical of inflation that we now have even more syllables than in the simple phrase "Green Paper". If necessary, it might have been called a "Pale Green Paper", but please not a "Consultative Document". It has already been abbreviated, in jargon, to "C.D.", and some people think that might be spelt "seedy". We have now had, as I said, three documents, and, from the point of view of those of us who are concerned with the teaching hospitals, each time we have to start afresh to educate our masters, the Ministers, as to the reasons for the independence which the teaching hospitals claim. They all seem to arrive in Office and to be wrongly briefed to begin with; and I should like my noble friend to remind the Secretary of Skate of the words which his predecessor, Mr. Crossman, used at Southampton some two years ago, when he said that he had discovered
"how rightly sensitive teaching hospitals and universities are to any changes, that they may be submerged in a remote regional structure or lose the intimate contacts with the Secretary of State which give them a valuable feeling of independence".
Those words could not be bettered, and I hope that both my right honourable friend and my noble friend will ponder those words and not be in too much hurry to destroy a: cherished, and essential independence. Otherwise, I would not wish to repeat what my noble friend Lord Cobbold has said.
As to the Consultative Document, it is, I think, good to end, or to get near to ending, the uncertainty which has now hung over the Health Service for nearly eight years, but I must say that I have very grave doubts about the timetable. It is two years and four months until

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the appointed day, when the reorganisation of both the local government system and the National Health Service is due to come into operation, and I cannot but feel that this is going to impose an enormous and almost intolerable strain on all those concerned, particularly in the National Health Service. Until both Bills are through Parliament—and we have not yet had a White Paper—inevitably there will be uncertainties which will impede the reorganisation; and if you study the Consultative Document I think you will note that there are at least six major problems or issues which are awaiting the outcome of various reports of expert studies or working parties, or which are (a new phrase which has crept in) demanding special consideration. These include some most intractable and insoluble problems, particularly that of London.
These proposals for integration or unity are admirable in theory, and having made my genuflection towards the theory of integration may I leave the arguments for it there. But I echo what has been said by others: the Consultative Document does not postulate a real unity. The general practitioners are left outside the authority of the area health authorities; the executive councils are to deal direct with the Department, and are to have separate finance. In other words, my Lords, they are to enjoy the freedom which is to be denied to the teaching hospitals. One of the alleged faults of the present system is this divide between the general practitioners and the hospitals. In practice, this is often exaggerated, and depends very largely on personal relationships. None the less, I accept the need for integration; but, as they stand, the proposals accentuate this schism. Nor, my Lords, is there real unity unless the school health service is, in my view, totally integrated with the National Health Service.
I am glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, back in his place because I enjoyed his speech very much, particularly as I think I agreed with every single word he said. Equally, I feel that unless you include industrial health in its present vestigial form of a health service—that is to say, the medical inspection of the factories and the control and prevention of occupational disease, which are func-
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tions admirably suited to the area health authorities—then, again, you have gone nowhere towards the integration that is sought. The noble Lord, Lord Amulree, mentioned the prison medical service. I would gladly see that integrated as well, but even what I have said involves the Secretary of State wresting powers from the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Employment and Productivity, which I think is quite enough for one Secretary of State to tackle in one Parliament, and if you added the Home Office (who are notorious empire builders, if I may say so) you would not get anywhere at all. But I agree with the noble Lord and all others in what they have said, and until this is achieved I think the words "unity" and "integration" are, frankly, a mockery.
My Lords, I have studied most of the Press cuttings of the comments on the Consultative Document, and I have read the debate in another place. There are two recurrent themes which have in some measure reappeared to-day and which are worth mentioning. One is that the National Health Service is hospital dominated, and the other is that it is run by a self-perpetuating oligarchy. The latter phrase, "a self-perpetuating oligarchy", comes from a speech by Mr. Crossman in another place. My Lords, I was last re-appointed in the post I fill as chairman of a hospital by Mr. Crossman, and I can only say that I never felt that I was self-perpetuating. I received the invitation from him, which I accepted. I have the greatest affection and respect for Mr. Crossman, who, with his inquiring mind, was an original and very good Minister. I must say my affection and respect are enhanced by the fact that he sits on the Opposition Benches. But I was rather startled to read in that debate that he said—and it has a lot of bearing on the matter of the relative merits of nominated and elected members—in column 613:
"We can appoint whom we like, but we cannot get rid of him. We are not allowed to…".[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 1/7/71]
Every appointment is for three years, so that in six years Mr. Crossman and Mr. Kenneth Robinson could have transformed this "self-perpetuating oligarchy"; and, indeed, they did make

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many changes. But what an extraordinary confession of Ministerial impotence, to get up and admit, in his own words, that he has been as clay in the bureaucrats' hands! I really hope that we shall hear the last certainly of the phrase "self-perpetuating", or any suggestion that nominated members are more timid than elected members. Are elected Members of another place—and I appeal to those who have been in another place —never sensitive to the opinions of Whips? Are they never sensitive to reelection, as nominated members are said to be sensitive to the horrors of not being re-appointed? Is a nominated member really any less likely to be timid than an elected member, who may have his Party in another place to consider? Of course not. I think this is grossly exaggerated, and the issue as between election and nomination must be on quite different grounds.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I intervene only because I should not like it thought that what the noble Lord is now saying is accepted. I think he is strangely out of touch with the great many people who have been nominated on various boards at different levels.
LORD REIGATE: My Lords, like the noble Lord, I can speak only from my own experience. I do not think (and I would almost ask for a reference from the Department) that in some of my approaches to them I have been timid; and I have never found members of my board timid. Far from it! Nor, as my noble friend reminds me, would Queen Charlotte's be described as timid. So I hope that we can get away from that.
The other comment was made originally by Mrs. Shirley Williams, for whom I also have the greatest respect, when she said that the National Health Service was hospital-dominated. This is an interesting phrase and one that demands analysis. She quoted some figures; she said that 62 per cent, of the expenditure went on hospitals and 9 per cent. on general practitioners. I have not checked the figures, but I think she underestimates the amount that goes on hospitals. But I must say that I regard these statistics as meaningless. It is quite obvious that an acute general hospital must be more costly. In parenthesis, may I say that I
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could not agree more with the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, when he referred to acute hospitals tackling the problems of geriatrics and long-term patients. From the point of view of teaching hospitals, we must all have geriatric facilities. But the money goes on the acute wards, where there is a ratio of approximately three staff to one patient. This covers not only doctors, who are comparatively few, and not only nurses; but all the ancillaries to medicine—the cooks, the cleaners, and all the hundreds of people who are needed to keep the hospital going. So it is inevitable that, in numbers of staff employed (and this must have a bearing on the organisation) and in the cost, the hospital service is bound to bulk largest. But that does not mean "domination". If you must use a phrase, talk of "hospital preponderance"; for it is bound to bulk largest. But that is a very different matter from "domination".
The Secretary of State stresses, as everyone has said, good management. I think that, looking at the present Service, we all realise that there are good patches and bad patches. If we study the statistics from the point of view of the efficiency we see how much more is done by hospitals to-day than was done some years ago. One hesitates to use the words "output" or "throughput" or "productivity" when dealing with the care of patients. But when one spends, as the boards and committees do, millions of pounds, one has to examine the priorities very carefully and it is important to watch what is proved by the statistics about the use of the hospitals.
My Lords, I was looking at the figures of one hospital in my group, an acute hospital. I noted that in four years the average stay of patients has declined from just under 15 days to just over 10 days. That is not done only by improved treatment and new drugs; it is also done by good management and good administrative techniques in getting the incoming patients there at the right time and, if necessary, placed in other homes or convalescent homes as may be needed. I hope that we may get rid of this idea of hospital domination of the Service, which somehow suggests that there are in the hospitals surplus resources that could be transferred from the hospitals to other places. It would be regrettable if unification were to mean only a check on the

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remarkable progress that has been made in the hospital service in the last 23 years.
One last point, my Lords. I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, said before me. I raised in this House the question of the Whitley machinery, and I pointed out some of the inequities and inefficiencies that exist. I must say that I got a very "dusty answer" from my noble friend. I hope he will recall that no-one spoke in favour of the status quo. I regret his refusal. I think I know why it is. I do not think the Department of Health and Social Security want an inquiry; they never have wanted an inquiry. This does not apply only to the present Administration. Frankly, to put it metaphorically, I think they have a horrible feeling that if the stone is lifted up, horrible, nasty things will crawl out from underneath. On this subject, I hope that the Secretary of State and my noble friend will read the book to which the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, referred. It is called Challenge for Change and is published by the Nuffield Provincial Hospitals Trust. In particular, and in relevance to what I have said, I hope they will read Chapter 9 on the staffing of the National Health Service: it is not uncritical of the Consultative Document, and it is not uncritical of the Department's errors for many years past. If the Ministers will read it, I think that they, in turn, may reconsider the request for an inquiry into the Whitley machinery. To sum up, I believe that unification and integration are valueless and will not work unless there is a contented staff.
5.45 p.m.
LORD HAYTER: My Lords, I am certainly not going to attempt to speak on behalf of the Management Committee of the King Edward's Hospital Fund to-day because no less than half of that Committee sit in your Lordships' House. If your Lordships are able to identify them personally, you will see what a difficult job I have and what spirited meetings the Committee has. I find myself at medical conferences and the like speaking on behalf of the taxpayer and patients. Several speakers have noted that the word "patient" does not occur at all in the Consultative Document, and that the word "research" occurs once in the Document and once in each of the appendices. My
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point is that the ultimate success of the National Health Service depends on the quality, quantity and aims of the research and development applied to it. I want much more attention to be given to the idea of setting up some identifiable and publicly-accountable body charged with three purposes: one, the overall strategy for health and welfare services research; two, to review the progress and priorities of research; and three, to co-ordinate the efforts of Government, voluntary organisations, hospitals, universities and industry.
On the first point, this work is going on but it is not in the hands of a body such as the Medical Research Council or the Social Sciences Research Council; yet the sum involved is some £5¼ million and it is in precisely those areas we have been talking about in this debate. It is research into the services themselves, the use made of them and whether we could make more effective use of them; the special developments, the new techniques which have been brought to bear in some of the hospitals on an experimental basis and not yet introduced as a general service, and also in the research and development in medical equipment supplies and appliances together with hospital buildings. There is a certain amount of ignorance in the field as to what is going on, but certainly the last two categories are of tremendous importance in our export of hospital equipment and hospital know-how.
Such a body could assess the priorities to which I have already referred. Why do we spend twice as much on research and development of equipment as on research into hospital building and engineering? A famous book called Portfolio for Health, which set out the Department's research and development programme in relation to the Health Service, appeared recently for the first time. It was not published by the Department. It was published for them by the Nuffield Provincial Hospitals Trust.
Turning to the review of progress and priorities of research, I went to a conference organised by the King Edward's Hospital Fund last week on the health and welfare services. I found myself profoundly depressed; depressed, I think, by the lack of co-ordination, the variety of views that people had and the losing

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sight the whole time—as has been emphasised time and again in this debate—of the fact that everything has to be measured in relation to the benefit of the patient. How important it is to get the specifications of our aims right! What is the objective of the Health Service to-day? What, indeed, is health? I think it has something to do with the quality of life in the majority of circumstances that surround the individual. If that sounds a bit complicated, I would say that if you happen to have the misfortune to lose a leg you are a happy and healthy person in all circumstances except cross-country running and other activities that you cannot indulge in. If you happen to be a diabetic you are a healthy person in all respects except for such occupations as being an air pilot. But let us get that definition right and follow it right through.
There is a tremendous ignorance of what is actually happening in the Health Service to-day. We have the numbers of staffs, beds and hospital stays, but do we know the whole? We know little or nothing about what is happening to the patient when lie is in hospital. The King's Fund did an investigation on in-patient satisfaction, which was a beginning—not a very satisfactory one, but there is something in it. We certainly know nothing about what happens to the patient after he leaves hospital. Indeed, my Lords, I think you will find that statistics of deaths and discharges from hospital are all lumped together—a horrifying thought that gets back to some of the points made by other speakers earlier on.
We have the problem of the child in hospital and we are beginning to realise that to do things for a child in a physical way in hospital is a waste of time if in that process you have not allowed the child to have his mother with him and have therefore set up a mental state which may last for a long time in after life. We had the problem of the length of stay in hospital which was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Reigate. We do not really know what it means. On the maternity side there are these wide differences in the length of stay in different maternity hospitals and I suspect that right at the back of it all is the fact that the mother does not want to go home because she has not the home help
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which would make all the difference to her health—her real health.
But there is a change of outlook in many of these things throughout the Health Service and some of it is very properly outlined by the Secretary of State in the Foreword to this Document. There is no precise borderline between health and sickness. The public somehow feels that medical care must be better, but this has never been evaluated. Despite what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Reigate, we do have an obsession with hospitals. I think the motto should be. "Keep the patient out, but, having got him in, get him out as soon as possible." I was sorry that we did not have the debate on hostels originated by the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell. That was the whole point of the matter. There are many people in hospital to-day who ought not to be there at all: that is why for so many years the King's Fund ran those halfway homes which served such a useful purpose. The education of the public is the key to it all.
The Royal College of Physicians is perfectly right to say that it is part of the medical function to discourage smoking. Preventive medicine is the answer in a situation like that. But this National Health Service research council, if founded, should embody all those concerned with patient care and should have large horizons. All industrial experience, indeed all logic, points to the need for independent, ultimate publicity—a thing which is very rare on the research side in the Health Service at the moment—and free discussion; and I think there is obvious advantage in including industry in those efforts. For when we come to co-ordinate the efforts of the Government, industry, the universities and the voluntary organisations there are many people more qualified than myself who ask the question, "Should the Department be the sole promoter of such research, as it is at the moment?" I only know that in my own business I have invented a phrase that has held good all these years: an inventor is blind to the imperfections of his own invention. It is easy to sidetrack departmental research into something which is administratively convenient. I put down, as an illustration of that, the point about children in hospitals. If the result of research meant

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that you were spending a lot of money on reorganising children's wards, perhaps it would be better, from the Department's point of view, to leave it alone.
There is this new Green Paper coming out, A Framework for Government Research and Development, and we shall probably be debating it in due course. I should not wish to be thought dogmatic on this subject, whatever the outcome of these discussions. I am suggesting that the Department of Health should have direct control of some fund for sponsoring its own projects. My point is that the Department should have some money and some power, but not all the money and all the power. I hear that there are claims that Departmental research must remain "in the hands of the responsible executive Department". My thoughts go back to a cutting from The Times which I saw, describing what happened in 1934 when the Secretary of State for Air
"advised by the Air Ministry, wrote that 'we do not consider that we should be justified in spending any time or money on the jet engine'".
Scientific investigation, he explained, gave no indication that jet propulsion
"could be a serious competition to the airscrewengine combination."
If this Consultative Document is right in its change of emphasis in relation to health problems as a whole, and I think that it is, then it says too little on research and development, which is the key to part of the problem we are discussing to-day. It is a subject of vital importance and one that should not be left to the exclusive control of a Government Department.
5.57 p.m.
BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTE: My Lords, I think that those of us who have sat through this debate so far would probably agree that the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and his right honourable friend in another place have had a bit of a "pasting" this afternoon. I would call to him, as the spectator at a Welsh Rugby match once called out to one of the players, "Never mind the ball, Dai—get on with the game!"Before I say the few things that I want to say I should like to pay a tribute to the work undertaken by the noble Baroness, Lady Serota, when she
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was in the position now occupied by the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare. Noble Lords on both sides of the House know that she had the health of the people and the happiness of the patients and staff at heart. She gave wholeheartedly to that work and I for one have a great admiration for what she achieved during the time she was in Office.
My Lords, I should also like, if I may, to refer to the extreme humanity in the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Mon. The Consultative Document has been "ribbed" because the word "patient" did not appear in any of its pages. Quite frankly, my Lords, I have not been through it with the analytical tooth-comb which some people have used but I will take it that it does not. I thought however, that in Lady Masham's speech we had all the humanity and compassion for patients and for their friends that is characteristic of this great Health Service of ours. One last personal note. I am so very sad that the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, cannot be here to take part in the debate because he has been such a strong supporter of national health in these debates over the years, with his considerable knowledge as chairman of a great management committee.
I wish to touch on two different subjects in connection with the Motion which is being debated. The first one concerns the immediate future and the "getting on with the game." In May of this year the Secretary of State for the Social Services said, on the first page of his Consultative Document that
"there must be early decisions so that the enthusiasm for reform does not wither away".
As the principle of the unification of the National Health Service is now generally accepted, the great thing is that there should be an early end to the present state of uncertainty. During the last decade those working in the Service have made substantial progress towards functional unification, but I can see real grounds for fearing that this movement may lose its impetus during the months ahead because of the personal insecurity of those whose future will remain uncertain until Government decisions are definitely announced.
Many people in the Service were disappointed to find that only Scotland is

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to be legislated for during the present Parliamentary Session. It may be that it was because one of the Ministers on the Scottish front happens to be a woman and she is determined to "get on with the game". This presumably means that England and, I regret to say, Wales will have to wait until late 1972 or early 1973 before a Bill can be placed before Parliament. This is very worrying, because the time-table, as we have already heard from other speakers this afternoon, is going to be extremely tight, if the reorganised Health Service is to come into being on April 1, 1974. As the result of the implementation of the Local Authority Social Services Act, the reorganisation of the social services which came about earlier this year caused a pretty considerable unheaval. The Health Service is an even bigger organisation and the scope for administrative confusion in 1974 will be vast, unless it is known precisely where we are going at least two years in advance. It is most important that the White Paper should appear without fail by Easter, 1972, and that legislation should follow as rapidly as possible.
The change of administrative framework will not by itself achieve anything but it will provide a firm basis on which to build a revised Health Service, in which the priorities can be looked at across the board in terms of scarce resources both of manpower and of money. I think that the decision to make the new local authorities and the area health authorities coterminus is right, and it is to be hoped that a high degree of autonomy will be granted to the area health authorities, as there is great concern lest there should simply he a takeover at regional level. There are powerful forces in favour of giving wide authority to what would he little more than reconstituted regional hospital boards and if this should happen the result might be disastrous for the community health service, on which we must depend for the great bulk of health care in this country—disastrous, because conflict between the high powered managements at regional level and at area level may suffocate the patient altogether.
Having made those general points, I should like to refer to those at present employed by local health authorities in the field of public health. When reorganisation
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comes about, very nearly all those working in hospitals and in general practice will carry on with essentially the same duties, whereas the public health service as we know it to-day will cease to exist. Those who are working at this moment in public health accept the need for a change but justifiably hope that their continuing contribution to the National Health Service will be encouraged.
The Hunter Working Party is likely to make its report upon the future of medical administrators to the Secretary of State early in 1972. That should take care of the doctors. But there are other professional groups in the public health field—the nursing staff, the administrative staff and the clerical staff. I have worked closely with the Queen's Institute of District Nursing for the last 37 years and I know at first hand what outstanding service the domiciliary nurses have given to the community: so have the mid-wives and so have the health visitors. The administrative and clerical staffs have also served the public well. I would make a plea with all my heart that all these groups should be encouraged and not overlooked and that they should be assured of a fair opportunity to contribute their skills and talents to the new organisation on equal terms with their opposite numbers on the hospital side.
The second subject I want to raise concerns the use of voluntary helpers. My noble friend Lady Ruthven of Freeland has already introduced them into this debate. On Page 6 of the Consultative Document there are just ten words in which this invaluable service is dealt with:
"Collaboration with voluntary organisations, too, will continue to be developed."
How our friend and colleague the late Lady Reading, must have smiled at that pious intention. She gave 33 years of her life to the creation and development of one of the greatest voluntary movements this country has ever seen. To quote some of her own words taken from a brilliant treatise upon voluntary service which was written just before she died:
"Great Britain is a Welfare State and is now in the throes of reshaping the statutory bodies which administer it. During this transitional period many things will have to be altered, many difficulties will have to be faced. The integration of voluntary service into the work of the statutory bodies demands that the

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volunteer must understand how statutory aid works, where voluntary action participates, and how the volunteer fits into the pattern of the whole."
Lady Reading is not here to speak to-day, so I am daring to try and say a little of what she would have said so much better. What she said is just what the W.R.V.S. have endeavoured to do in their contribution to the work of the National Health Service. They have set out to train themselves for intelligent integration. In the first place, the aim has been to prevent the need arising for people to be sent to hospital or institution. Apart from consideration of human likes and dislikes, increasing costs within such institutions are governing factors which emphasise the importance of this aim. The system whereby the W.R.V.S. as a kind of subcontractor to the local authorities carries out community services for which the authority is financially and statutorily responsible is very effective—for instance, Meals-on-Wheels is a good example of what I am saying.
Great efforts are also made to render it possible for people who can do so to leave hospital and to return home, or to go to a smaller hospital or convalescent home which provides less intensive care but where voluntary help can make a practical contribution of compassionate service. The W.R.V.S., the British Red Cross, St. John and the Leagues of Hospital Friends are doing their best to meet the needs of the hospital and domiciliary and social welfare services. Their efforts have met with considerable success, but much more could be done with even better co-ordination between the voluntary organisations and Government Departments. Consultation with the voluntary organisations at an early stage of project planning is essential.
Stella Reading had almost a horror of publicity or personality projection for the service she founded. But during the last year of her life she realised that to provide machinery to enable others to make their contribution to health, welfare and community service was a priority duty for the W.R.V.S. and that publicity must be given to the diversity of jobs available. Accordingly, she arranged for the production of the first printed Annual Report of the W.R.V.S. It was the last document which she signed officially as Chairman before her final illness.
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It contains an amazing record of work undertaken and jobs done. I will refer only to the section devoted to the service available in hospitals, not only for normal patients but also for the mentally ill and mentally handicapped. There are 522 W.R.V.S. canteens for out-patients or visitors; 742 shopping services and trolley shops; 142 static shops and 27 purpose-built shop-canteen units (do not ask me to tell you the difference between these two categories, because I do not know, but I am sure that both do marvellous work) mainly for the mentally ill. There are 139 library services, and diversional therapy and handicrafts in more than 100 hospitals. The W.R.V.S. will he found at work in 1,311 general hospitals, 113 mental hospitals and 70 hospitals for the mentally handicapped. The hospital car service in England and Wales is organised jointly by St. John, the British Red Cross and the W. R. V. S. in conjunction with the country and county borough ambulance services. In 1970,406,687 patients were driven 5,436,631 miles.
I could go on for a long time recounting the quiet achievements of immense value that are being recorded daily. The future potential is limitless. Of this I am sure that my noble friend Lord Aberdare is fully aware. But the potential will wilt and wither if it is not encouraged and welcomed and made use of by statutory bodies. I have come to the end of what I have to say, except that I believe that I shall carry your Lordships with me when I say that the name of Stella Reading will go down in world history as having done for voluntary community service what Florence Nightingale did for the Red Cross.
6.10 p.m.
LORD PLATT: My Lords, in the first place, I am bound to say that the Foreword by the Secretary of State makes rather disappointing and somewhat ungenerous reading, though this has been considerably repaired by the opening speech of the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, which we very much appreciated. The second paragraph of the Document refers to the "creaking structure" within which doctors, nurses and administrators must work. I should be the first to agree that a little oil could be applied in places, but the Document seems to omit to state the fact that the medical services in Britain

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are better than those anywhere else in the world—and I make that statement without reservation. I advise almost anyone who is taken seriously ill in almost any part of the world to take the first plane back to Britain. The exception, of course, is the person who needs a repair to some damage done by a previous operation, because they have great experience of that in the United States, where so much bad surgery is done. The Document fails to say these things, but especially I think it is notable that it fails to mention the excellent work done by the Regional Boards of the National Health Service. That has been outstanding. Before we break down the existing structure (though I shall say later that I am in favour of a great deal that is suggested) we have to see in what way the new structure will be better.
For four and a half years I was Chairman of the Distinction Awards Committee for Consultants in the Health Service, and it was my job every year to visit the whole of the 15 (not 14, as stated in the Consultative Document) regions, as well as the sub-centres.
LORD ABERDARE: The 15 includes Wales.
LORD PLATT: I thought there would be a snag in it somewhere. I have also visited sub-centres—important places, but not university centres—at Wolverhampton, Middlesbrough, Coventry, Southampton, Portsmouth, Exeter, Lincoln, Carlisle, Bath, Truro, and I could mention a dozen more. Perhaps, therefore, I have a better knowledge of the senior administrative medical officers of the regions, of the chairmen of the boards of governors and secretaries, and of the work done in those places, than almost anybody in your Lordships' House. Wherever I go I find spendid work being done, and done often with great enthusiasm. I have seen excellent new district hospitals in Peterborough, Windsor, Swindon and Hull. I know that the Department does not want to be patting itself on the back all the time, but I think some of those points might have been mentioned in the Document. I have of course come away with the impression that some Regional Boards are a great deal better than others; but I think it extremely unlikely that when we get the new Regional Boards there will not be at least some similar differences in quality.
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Another point that could be made in the Document, but does not seem to be made, is that some of the creaking that seems to be going on is really due to lack of finance: in other words, palm oil is the kind of oil needed. The recent statement by the Secretary of State, that a good many millions more are going into the Health Service, and in areas where they are greatly needed, is most heartening. But nothing is said of the need for finance being the cause of what is called this creaking. In my view, some of the need is owing to a lack of flexibility in finance, which I assume though I have no knowledge of it—would not be tolerated in industry. One of our difficulties in the Health Service—I have sat on a board of governors for many years and have not seen it merely from the doctor's point of view—is the difficulty of rewarding an outstanding person, possibly a ward sister, a secretary, a pharmacist or a telephonist. You cannot give such a person more money because the scale does not allow you to do so. I should not like to tell your Lordships in the presence of the Minister of some of the "wangles" that we have done by giving people different job names from the ones that they actually do. That point might well be looked into in any reorganisation of the Health Service.
Then, the Document has little or nothing to say about patients, although I will say in its favour that it is not really about patients but about the running of the Service for patients. It has little to say about doctors. But what is more important is that it has little or nothing to say about the general practitioner, except that he occupies a central position in the Health Service. It is rather like the same remark on the voluntary services: the bouquet is there, but nothing more. The best type of general practice has improved out of recognition since the Health Service came about.
I agree, as I think practically everyone does now, that there should be integration and that the so-called tripartite structure—a rather hackneyed term nowadays—should go. But there are a number of things that we have to remember. I have always been a little afraid in all these discussions about the tripartite system as to the position of the general practitioner and whether he will be better off or worse off when he will

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virtually be competing for funds with the hospital service. The need for new and magnificent operating theatres, the need for new laboratories and so on all seem to take precedence over the everyday work of the general practitioner. This is a matter at which the new organised Health Service must look carefully and make sure that the general practitioner really gets his say and his need. In that respect, I could refer to the question of medical representation, regional and at area levels. I know that my colleagues in other organisations and professions have sent in documents in which they go into details—I do not intend to go into them this afternoon—of representation on the various boards. That in general I support, though I think one can go too far.
What is in danger of being forgotten is that the new area boards (your Lordships will forgive me if I do not use exactly the right term; area committees, or whatever they are) are no longer just hospital committees. If there are to be at least two doctors on these committees (which may or may not seem reasonable) it would seem to me that two very eminent people in the local district hospital—it may be the senior physician and the radiologist—would expect to have those two places. We must leave room for general practitioner representation which is very important if the tripartite system is going to end, and the area health service is going to deal with general practice as well as hospital practice. In contrast to the various omissions that I have pointed out, there is emphasis on management. I am trying to take the best possible view of this Document. In my view it is the best of the three Documents, and I am sure that it is a sincere attempt to do something better. I am sure that the management idea is good if the management is good. Here we come to finance. Are we going to offer the type of salaries to attract good people as managers? Will they be of a status to enable them to talk to the senior surgeon and senior physician and, if necessary, tell them where they get off? People of pretty high calibre are required for this job. My worry is that we shall not get them. We shall get them in the big, most notable places, but shall we get them in all the other areas and
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the lesser regions? If not, we might be better off soldiering on as we are doing at present. I would rather have no manager at all than a manager for whom I had no respect at all.
I have read most of the comments which have been made by the British Medical Association Joint Consultants Committee, and so on, and they raise a number of points. They point out that the Document is very vague on many issues. This is obvious. On the other hand, if it were too detailed we should be saying that the Department had come to all its conclusions before consulting us. There are important details to be threshed out by intimate consultation and discussion which would not be suitable for me to go into this evening.
We come now to the question of nomination versus election. I am sorry to report to many people whom I greatly respect that, of the two, give me nomination every time. There are cases in which election is right, but I am not one of those people who is frightened of nomination. Any Minister worth his salt consults the kind of people that he should consult, and the appointments are really made by the medical staff, universities and so on, although they are nominated by the Minister. I very much agree that the present regional hospital boards, and boards of governors, are really a confusion of two functions. I pointed this out —as did other people—about ten years ago. They consist of anything between 20,30 or more people, only five of whom take a really active part in the management of the board, the area or the hospital, or whatever it is they have to manage. The others are representatives of local interests, either geographically defined—for example, that the people at Rochdale do not have as good a maternity service as the people at Stockport or something of this kind or they may be representing different branches of professions or age groups and so on. These people will now meet in the new community councils. If these are properly run and have access to the people who have the finance and make the decisions, then this is a splendid idea. The governing body should be a comparatively small one. Advisory committees—I have in mind medical ones, but there will be others—should be strong. The community interests should be separately

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represented and not mixed up with the management and governors.
There are three smaller but important points I want to make, and then I will wind up with a few other matters. Some of my colleagues do not agree with what has been called—a horrible word, which a heard to-day for the first time—"coterminosity". Some of my colleagues do not agree that the health service area should be coterminous with the local authority area. They feel that it should not stride over two local authority areas; that it should be in the closest possible touch with the local authority. But there are certain places in which there will probably be two quite big district hospitals with perhaps a considerable area of countryside in between where it may be better to have two area health authorities within the one local authority region or area. Secondly (and this is more a point of consultation), appointments at registrar level or above should be a matter for the regional machinery and not for the area machinery. Thirdly, we are very interested in the result of the discussions referred to in paragraphs 7 and 8, which are going to put a little more detail into an otherwise rather vague statement on how these health areas are to work. We hope that all interests—and, needless to say, I have medicine particularly in mind—will be thoroughly consulted before any final conclusions are arrived at on this point.
My last three matters are as follows. Integration is not complete, as the social services will remain with the local authority. Some of us think that this will make for, and is already making, quite serious difficulties, especially in certain areas like mental health geriatrics and midwifery. The G.Ps., although by some kind of lip service, written documents, and so on, may be integrating, really appear to be going on as they were before. One is bound to come away wondering whether this desire for closer co-operation between hospital and G. P. is going to come about as a result of these changes. Insufficient is said on the matter of the development of general practitioner services. This is important, because the general practitioners are not good at speaking for themselves. They are widely distributed, there is a vast number of them, and they are not so well organised as a
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consultant group, for instance, in a large district hospital, and their needs are not so easily made known.
I should like to back up as strongly as I can all that the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, and others have said about our centres of excellence, in London in particular, in the special and postgraduate hospitals in particular. I am a little in two minds over the future of the highly specialised hospitals because I am quite sure that in fifty years' time, if not before, they will be out of date. We should have specialties such as the skin, the eyes, obstetrics and so on, in a centre where all scientific services are available and where we can attract the best scientists, the best pathologists, the best radiologists and so forth. Nevertheless, we have centres of excellence in London and these postgraduate hospitals can often be combined with other hospitals and general hospitals and can continue to exist in a somewhat different way. But they are most important; their finances and their interests should not be just lumped together, with somebody saying to them, "You know, your expenses are 40 per cent. more than somebody else's. You must cut down on this and that". We must keep up the idea that there should be some centres of excellence, as there have been in the past; and these, as others have said, have earned a very great reputation for this country and for British medicine.
6.31 p.m.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, I begin by declaring an interest in that I am an adviser to G. D. Searle, a company which specialises in the delivery of many aspects of health care, from pharmaceuticals to gamma radiography, to multiphasic health screening systems. I want to take up one or two points which the noble Lord, Lord Platt, has made in his very thoughtful contribution—and it is quite an ordeal to have to follow the noble Lord, who is so eminent in this field. I agree with him when he says it was a pity that in the foreword to the Consultative Document the Secretary of State did not pay some tribute to the medical staff we have in our hospitals, who are indeed the best in the world, as the noble Lord has said. It would have been fitting if he had not only done this but also paid tribute to the fact that we have the best nursing

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service in the world as well. This has been brought out in the interchange between the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, and her sparring partner on the Cross-Benches, when they were talking about the differences between this country and the United States. There is no doubt at all that we have the best medical and the best nursing services in the world, and, as the noble Baroness remarked, anybody who has been to the United States—she mentioned Los Angeles, but one could name many other cities in that country—would see how privileged we have been in spite of the faults in our administrative structure. I am afraid that in the course of this debate we have rather lost sight of that in all the arguments about management and whether it has the right emphasis.
We have, as my noble friend Lord Amulree pointed out, lost sight of the fact that what we really ought to be talking about is patient care. The whole point of reorganising the Health Service is not to present to the nation some perfect administrative structure that will stand up to any examination by management consultants, but to improve what is being done for the patient in the hospital and the local authority health services or in the family doctor services. I should like to come back to this point when I have said just one or two words about the very interesting remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Platt.
He said that the regional boards at present did some extremely good work; and I do not think one can deny that. At the same time, we have a number of superannuated aldermen on our regional boards and hospital management committees who contribute very little. What one is afraid of in looking at any proposals for reorganisation is that we shall get the same "Christmas pudding", or the same ingredients, mixed up in a different way; that we still have, according to the Consultative Document.15 members appointed by the regions and all the persons who are on the regions are appointed by the Secretary of State. This is not necessarily the best way of achieving an efficient and humane Health Service. There should be an element of democracy, not in the sense that other noble Lords have described, which is not democracy at all—the Crossman-style
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proposals wherein the majority of representatives on the area health authorities or the regional boards are appointed by the corresponding elected local authority —but where they are directly elected. What is wrong with having some people on the area health authority or the regional boards directly elected by people whom they are going to serve?
I am surprised that people can talk about democracy when what they really mean is nomination by people on the local authority who are always politically inclined and who are going to nominate people belonging to their own political Party. Let us be quite blunt about it. We know this happens. We look in our own areas and see who gets appointed to the hospital management committees, who is nominated to serve on the regional hospital boards. They are all members of the majority Party, which happens to be in control in the area, with one or two make-weights thrown in so that nobody can say there is any prejudice. I am afraid that if the majority of area health authorities are appointed in this way, the same thing is going to happen. This is going to be a reward for past service and not a means of selecting those people who are most capable of making a serious contribution to the management of the Health Service, which is what this Consultative Document is all about.
I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Scrota, that there is undoubtedly an overwhelming case for integration, and we should not argue that again this afternoon. What we need to talk about is the way in which this integration is going to benefit the patient. I should like to mention just two aspects of this question which are of particular concern to me. One is the family planning services. I do not see any mention in the Consultative Document of how they are to he handled: whether they are going to be under the control of the area health authorities or the local authority social services committees. I agree with the anxiety which has been expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Platt, that there can be some overlapping and dichotomy between these two authorities.
I was talking to the consultant in the casualty department of one of our hospitals, and he told me that in many cases patients call in for treatment in that hospital when they really ought to

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be the responsibility of the local authority social services committee; but they do not get in touch with the chief medical officer or chief welfare officer because they know that the facilities are not available. Therefore the liaison does not exist at the moment, and just by saying, "we will appoint certain people from the local authority social services committees on to the area health authorities", or the converse, does not mean to say that we are going to get efficient communication between the two.
However, to come back to the question of family planning, this is of vital importance because we are trying to find more money for the Health Service. The Secretary of State, in a very welcome statement last week, announced the provision of an extra £118 million for the mentally ill and geriatric services. But if we were to have a family planning service then we could provide this sort of money—indeed, more than £118 million —and should be able to serve the public in a much better way than we are doing at the moment. In a very interesting summary, The Needs of the Health Service, produced by the King's Fund Hospital Centre, there is reference to the amounts of money which could be saved by adequate family planning services. It is claimed that for the expenditure of £40 million a year we should be able to provide effective birth control for every woman at risk and that the saving in terms of maternity and child care and other services would be something between £200 million and £400 million per annum. The difference then of £160 million minimum would not only enable us to provide this extra money for the mentally ill and the geriatric services which the Secretary of State has just announced but would give us at least another £42 million to spend on other Cinderellas in the National Health Service.
The second Cinderella that I want to mention is the accident and emergency service, to which the right honourable gentleman the Secretary of State alluded briefly in his Statement last week. He said that he intended, for example, to provide for increases in key staff for accident and emergency departments. One would like to know how this is going to be affected by the reorganisation. Are we going to have a concentration of
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the accident and emergency services in fewer and fewer hospitals by the closure of those departments which, it is said, are not viable by the test of management—perhaps they do not pay for their keep, as it were—but which are giving a service, and an extremely important service, to the patient? If they were shut, the patient would have to go much greater distances in order to receive attention.
This is by no means an academic question. One looks at the appalling carnage that takes place on our roads every year, costing vast sums of money. One should not really put it in financial terms, I suppose, but according to the recent report of the Road Research Laboratory the cost of road accidents is £300 million per annum. This very afternoon there has been a pile-up on the Ml in which a hundred ears were involved. At least 10 people are said to have died; the Luton and Dunstable hospitals are treating 28 casualties. An R.A.C. patrol man reported that there was a scene of carnage there, and a lorry driver said that it was just like a battlefield. On our roads this type of severe accident is, unfortunately, occurring much more frequently now as the speeds of vehicles increase. One knows that the speed limit was brought in on motorways some years ago, and this had some temporary effect on the incidence of road accidents. But if we continue to close the casualty departments, and concentrate treatment in the big district general hospitals, we may possibly lose lives through the time it takes to get patients to hospitals.
This point was brought out in a recent "Panorama" programme in which the accident and emergency services were discussed. The question arose of closing the casualty department in Maidenhead hospital and requiring the patients to go to Wexham Park. It was pointed out by some members of the management committee at Maidenhead Hospital that it could take as long as half an hour for an ambulance to get to a patient at the extremity of this area and take him back to Wexham Park for treatment. This is all very well if teams are going out with the ambulances; if the ambulances are properly equipped and serviced by professional personnel able to carry out

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intubation, to replace lost blood, and so on, while the patient is being brought into hospital. But, unforunately, very few of our hospitals provide such a service. One that was mentioned in the "Panorama" programme was the Derbyshire Royal Infirmary, and no doubt there are many others up and down the country. But is the National Health Service willing to spend the money? I am told that it is extremely expensive, because the teams have to be kept on duty for 24 hours a day, and for most of that time they will not be doing anything because no major road accident will have occurred. The alternative, surely, is not to adopt a policy of wholesale closure of casualty departments but to maintain them at the expense, perhaps, of some degree of managerial efficiency. If accidents continue to occur at the rate that, unfortunately, they do at the moment (and I am not speaking only of road accidents in this connection) the indirect benefits to the community of such a course may be very large indeed.
Another point I want to raise in connection with casualty departments is the absence of any career structure, to which attention has been drawn by the B.M.A.'s Central Committee for Hospital Medical Services. They pointed out in a report which appeared this year that as long ago as 1969 the representative body passed a resolution to the effect that action taken to secure a career structure for people to rise to consultant status from the major accident and emergency centres was grossly inadequate. I think I am right in saying that the Secretary of State announced the other day that thirty posts of consultant status were to be created in casualty departments, so that there would be at least the beginnings of a career structure. Obviously, thirty posts is not enough, if the statement refers to the whole of England and Wales. It does not give enough incentive to the young doctor to remain in the casualty department and to make it his career if he knows that there is little chance of promotion to consultant status. I should like to ask the noble Lord whether, when he replies, he can tell us when these thirty appointments are to be made, and whether there is going to be some machinery for apportioning them as between one region and
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another. It will be an invidious job, I feel, to say which heads of casualty departments are to be given consultant status.
There are many other parts of the Health Service which are Cinderellas. I have mentioned two of them—family planning and the accident and emergency departments. I hope that at the conclusion of this debate we shall not think that, merely by reorganising the administrative structure and giving another £118 million to what are agreed to be important aspects—the mentally ill and handicapped, and the geriatric services—we have finished the job. A great deal remains to be done, despite the fact that, as the noble Lord, Lord Platt, has remarked, we have the best Health Service in the world. If we want to maintain our reputation in this field we must realise that we must spend a greater proportion of the gross national product on health, and that as standards of living in this country rise the people will expect better nursing care, better medical care and better machinery for administering it.
6.49 p.m.
VISCOUNT DAVIDSON: My Lords, the hour is getting late and I will do my best not to add to the lateness. Like the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, I must begin by declaring an interest, though an interest of a very different sort. For the past ten years I have been a member of the management committee of a large group of hospitals for the mentally handicapped in North-East Essex, and for the last five years I have been chairman of that committee. I have also served on the management committee of a general group of hospitals, including one for the mentally ill. What I have to say during the next few minutes will be confined to the problems and the needs of the mentally handicapped from the point of view of a layman who is involved in this particular aspect of the National Health Service, if not entirely within the context of the Consultative Document.
Basically, the problems of the mentally handicapped, however unified and however integrated the National Health Service may be, are different from those of the mentally ill, and very different from those who require the services provided by general hospitals. However

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much one might wish it were otherwise, it is a basic fact of life that someone who is mentally handicapped will be dependent to some degree or other upon another person who is more fortunate, for the rest of his or her life.
At present, as your Lordships know, these people live and are cared for in what are known as "long-stay" hospitals. Some of these hospitals have hostels attached to them (as in my group) where those who are less handicapped can live in more homely surroundings. Although still under the management of the hospital group they live a more homely life and are in closer touch with the local community through being able to work in various jobs in the locality. The great majority of our patients, however, live in our hospitals, where conditions and surroundings vary dramatically between those who live in a few more spacious modern functional villas, and those who are housed in Victorian workhouses. It is these latter, which unfortunately house such a large number of mentally handicapped people, where conditions of overcrowding with the accompanying risks of disease and fire hazards have for so long placed an almost unbearable burden on the staff, which have given such deep concern and anxiety to the management committees, who have had neither the authority nor the funds for the major changes which were required.
Recently, however, the public conscience has been aroused. All those aspects of the problem of which we who have been so closely involved have been so acutely aware have become public knowledge through the mass media, through community contacts, enlightened visiting, and through Leagues of Friends and voluntary workers. More dramatic revelations, resulting from a limited number of inquiries into allegations of cruelty and other charges, have highlighted some of the conditions which prevail in this hitherto neglected section of the National Health Service. Not for nothing has it been called the real Cinderella of the Service. But I must emphasise that these incidents have been isolated ones and should be considered in perspective against the whole background of the continuing care of the mentally handicapped, which is of a very high standard.
My Lords, we are now at the crossroads. For the first time a positive and
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constructive policy is being worked out, and it looks as though the financial resources for implementing this policy are being made available. The White Paper published last July, Better Services for the Mentally Handicapped, coupled with that excellent document, Buildings for Mentally Handicapped People, published by the Department last January, provide first-class guide lines for planning future developments.
But it is at a time such as this, when fundamental and radical changes are being proposed, that feelings of uncertainty can develop, and I must confess that the Consultative Document, with its rather vague proposals set out in general terms, adds to rather than subtracts from this uncertainty. So far as the mentally handicapped are concerned, it is generally accepted and agreed that a high proportion of those at present in hospital could and should be cared for in the community, in hostels or in homes, as the White Paper rightly calls them, provided by the local authorities. But this will all take time, and even when the homes are built and ready for occupation I am seriously concerned as to how they will be staffed.
At present the care of our patients is being provided by a body of dedicated men and women, many of whom have given the best years of their lives to this selfless work, working frequently in overcrowded, ill-equipped conditions and at a very modest rate of pay. Many of them are highly qualified and experienced in all forms of care; for it must not be forgotten that the mentally handicapped can be seriously ill, have crippling defects, severe physical abnormalities, be doubly incontinent, be blind or deaf, or incapable of coherent speech or understanding. A conservative estimate of future requirements is that nationally we shall require 35,000 hostel beds and 25,000 hospital beds. The patients remaining in hospital will be well cared for by existing staff, but who will staff the hostels? What provision will there be for retraining in the management skills which will be required for the patients who will be in community care, with the additional welfare and social problems which will be created? What security can be offered for a career in caring for the mentally handicapped in view of this changing pattern? What security for the men and women, qualified

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and unqualified, nurses, occupational therapists and administrators?
I pose these questions, my Lords, for, having lived for so long with the many day-to-day practical problems in this field, I am convinced that the question of the quality of the staff far transcends other questions such as antiquated buildings and management structure. There will have to be retraining; there will have to be management courses for the staff of residential homes; staff recruitment will have to take place simultaneously with the provision of residential accommodation, with skilled interviewing and selection of candidates for this field of work; salaries and general conditions will have to be protected; full consideration must be given to all staff who may be involved in the transfer of patients from hospital to local authority homes. And, above all, we must ensure that there is no lowering of the high standards of care, which could result from the dilution of the trained staff with too many who are untrained.
Finally, with respect to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, I should like to say a word about the impending demise of the management committees. For the last 23 years they have given valuable service to hospitals in the National Health Service. Composed of representatives of local authorities and local organisations and of independent lay men and women, they have been able to provide objective advice and present objective views. Their work has been unpaid, their achievements have been unsung and their task has not been an easy one, for they have had to exercise that most difficult of things, responsibility without authority. But their main function, in my view, has been to establish a close relationship between the patients and staff in the hospital and the community which those hospitals serve. They have at times acted as an exhaust valve for pent-up frustrations and emotions which might otherwise have caused unnecessary troubles. I only hope that increased involvement by local voluntarly organisations in hospital work may go some way towards filling this gap. I would mention to my noble friend Lady Brooke that it is only a fortnight ago that we opened in my hospital a brand new canteen staffed by the W.R.V.S.; that is a great move forward
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and one which we are all very thrilled about. But this is my chief concern: that in the proposed new structure, however professional the management, however efficient the administration, this personal touch, this local contact which is so vital in hospital work and life, may not be quite so warm or so close in the future as it is now. I only hope that I may be proved wrong.
6.57 p.m.
LORD MORRIS OF GRASMERE: My Lords, I realise that it is late, but the point I want to make is, I think, very important. I will try to be very short. I am not myself as annoyed as many previous speakers about the word "management" in this connection. Management may mean to me something a little wider than perhaps it does to some other people; I do not know. It seems to me that people have been alarmed at talk of management because they think of management as largely concerned with avoiding the misuse of public funds, perhaps the misuse of money generally. But, of course, management is very much involved in the development of the structure and the handling of medical services, the use of our medical resources. When we have a Health Service in which the morale of the general practitioners, for instance, has for a long time been so low (many of them have persuaded their sons for a long period not to go into the profession); a service in which there has been such immense difficulty in getting nurses, and where it is generally thought that a great deal of the difficulty is that recruitment is difficult because girls do not like the way they are managed and handled—to mention just two instances—it seems to me extraordinary to think that improvement of management is not required.
But even outside the question of preventing, misuse of public funds, there are of course two big spheres of management: the practical management, and the management of tactics and of strategics. We are now embarking on some real thinking—perhaps it ought really to be rethinking—of the structure and handling of the whole Health Service; and surely one should ask oneself, "Where is the weakest part of the Health Service?" A large part of the Health Service is palpably a very great success. I agree with

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the right reverend Prelate that the hospital service is magnificent and, by and large, does work, except on certain fringes —for example, communication with people after they leave hospital, communication with the general practitioner, and so on. There is the point about the morale of the junior doctors, which is very serious indeed, and it has a great deal to do with management. If the profession cannot manage it, and cannot prevent the junior hospital doctors from being in a suppressed state of revolt, it is time for some other manager to produce a situation in which that does not happen.
I say nothing of the hospitals themselves. The hospital service is, by and large, magnificent. But where is the weak part of the Service? I have not the slightest hesitation or doubt (and I think that here many of your Lordships from your own experience will hear a bell ringing) in saying that the weakest part is the impingement of the Health Service on a great number of families when no member of the family is in hospital. Many people have talked about hospitals, and about nothing else at all, as if the hospital service were the Health Service; yet of course it is not. Probably, it is not even the most important part of it. Again and again people, including statisticians, say that it is far cheaper to keep people well, and, if they show signs of having something the matter with them, to catch it early and prevent it from getting worse, than it is to cure whatever is wrong. Even the statisticians say that. This may be difficult to believe, but that view is generally held. Subject to the skills of management, it is probably true. The Service is weakest at its impingement on the great mass of families of the country when they have not got a child in hospital.
We ought to be asking ourselves, when we re-think the National Health Service, whether we are making the best use of our resources. Our medical and nursing resources are magnificent; our resources in some of the ancillary professions, or near professions, or sub-professions, are not as good as all that, but they are pretty good and arc coming on. The resources are good. But what about their use? Much of this aspect has to do with the general practitioner, and I see a good deal of the attitude of a large
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number of people to the way the general practitioner service is working, because for 8 years I have been concerned with the training of health visitors and community nurses, and in studying their work and what is happening to their work under the development of the Health Service. By and large, the general practitioners have a morale which is not high. We ought to ask ourselves what would be the right use of the general practitioner, of which again we have magnificent resources.
Let us look at the matter as family men who have lived through our lives and looked after our wives, to some extent our sisters and brothers, our children and grandchildren, and played a fairly considerable part in keeping them well and keeping them going. How have we done it? Those of us who have been brought up in the educated classes have done it, to a considerable extent, with the help of medical advice: not medical treatment in surgeries or on hospital beds, but medical advice. We used to think that this was something that the Health Service would do, but broadly speaking we have made little or no progress in it at all. What does the general practitioner do? Why is his morale low? Why does he tell the young not to go into it? He says that they are doing all the wrong things. In other words, he spends his day in the wrong way. The educated classes used to be able to get medical advice and not wait until they were ill. If they were going abroad or taking a new job, or were thinking about a rather exacting profession for their sons or daughters, they took medical advice. How do you bring the benefits of that to bear on the great mass of families in the big cities? I live in a village, and I think that a good number of the families in the village still have sufficient contact with the general practitioner to get many of the advantages to which I have referred. But how do you do that sort of thing with the great numbers of people in the large towns?
I must not take too much time. I have almost taken the time that the Select Committee would allow me. We have made some progress with this matter, but it is very slow, and it has a bearing on the organisation of the Health Service. In the last resort, the clinical care and medical advice of the families in the country is given not by hospital doctors

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or by the medical officers of health (as is the case in the colonial countries that we have developed overseas); it is given by the general practitioner. Who deploys the resources of the general practitioner in any locality? The reorganisation of the Health Service ought to ensure that this part, which is one of the weakest parts of the Health Service, is well handled.
There is a good deal of talk of integration, as I shall mention in a moment. It is of tremendous importance to make the most of the general practitioner services for a region or a locality. We know very little from the Consultative Document how it is going to be done, who is going to do it, and what the terms of reference are going to be. The terms of reference ought to be ambitious terms of reference. The ambitions of this part of the Service ought to be at least as high, in their own sphere and doing their own things, as in the hospital service, or elsewhere. We used to think that the general practitioner would keep pace with the development of the hospitals, the over-specialisation of medicine, and matters of that kind, through training in the medical schools and following the way that the new generation of young practitioners would actually work, but that expectation has been disappointed and it has been a failure. The medical schools seem to have made little or no impact on the problem, and the general practitioner in this country hardly believes in the function of the general practitioner under to-day's system any more than the Americans do; and I cannot say anything to make it smaller than that.
There is some progress. There are the other medical services, such as the health visitors and the community nurses. Most of your Lordships will know what happens when somebody does not know how to exploit the use of the Health Service and is worried about something, such as about a child's health, a possible hole-in-the-heart, cancer, or whatever it is. The handling of the Health Service, especially if there is something a little awkward or difficult about the relationship with the general practitioner, is a tremendous management job. The sorting out of an individual case and getting it into the right hands is incredibly diffi-
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cult. I know, because it happened with my own family in the next generation and the third generation. This is where the structure of the Health Service could clearly make a great deal of difference. The health visitors could do a great deal here if they were able to get medical advice for the families with whom they have contact. They are there, in the home, and they are there fairly regularly. They talk to people, they know the children, they know their weaknesses and so on. If they could help to exploit the Health Service, and use the medical resources of the Health Service to help the families, we should be getting somewhere.
But at the moment a considerable proportion of general practitioners, perhaps 40 or 50 per cent.—and I understand this from general practitioners themselves—know hardly anything about the resources of the medical services. They know nothing about the health visitor services or about the other services that are peripheral to them. Furthermore, the health visitors are not, in general, in a position to bring into play the resources of the Health Service, and they are certainly not in a position to bring the general practitioner into play. But it is true that, encouraged by the Department, an attachment of health visitors to general practitioners is developing, although it is going pretty slowly. However, there are far more people who are well but who are possibly going to be ill, than there are people actually in hospital.
Presumably one factor in the economics of the matter is the use of general practitioners. The question is: is the organisation, the structure and the handling, going to be improved; and, if so, how? There are problems about the relation between the medical services, the health visitor and the social services—the. Seebohm departments of the local authorities, which are responsible for welfare. This is a very difficult—indeed, practically impossible—division. I am not complaining about that, because I myself was in favour of the division. But if, as I hope, some body is primarily concerned to see that the reorganisation of the Health Service is a success, the task will not be made more easy by talking about integration and by putting under the same type of authority parts which cannot be other

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than to a large extent separated. It is not going to be easier for them to work together than it is for some of the medical services to work with the Seebohm services, and in many ways it may be more difficult. There is a big spotlight on this. Everybody knows what the problems are and the members of the services themselves are immensely keen.
Perhaps at this point I should sit down, but before I do so I should like to emphasise one point. I should very much like to hear that a good deal of consideration and management expertise are going to be given to rethinking the services in this part of the Health Service; that is to say, in regard to the impact on the families which have no one in hospital. Can we, for a very great number of families, get from our medical resources anything like the advantages that we used to be able to get for a small number of families; for instance, in the educated classes and, to some extent, in the villages? If this cannot be done, then I believe that a major opportunity to do something that really matters will have been lost.
7.14 p.m.
LORD WRIGHT OF ASHTON UNDER LYNE: My Lords, I think there is general agreement that the National Health Service should be unified in the interests of patients, either at home or in hospital. But I am sure that many of your Lordships who have experience of health and hospital work will doubt whether the proposed unification is really in the interests of the patient. Some of us wonder whether, in many thousands of cases, the interests of the patients are to be subordinated to the organisational man and, possibly, to the lobby of county men who, for many reasons not always worthy, wish to cling to their power or to acquire new power. I know that today we are not to discuss the Local Government Bill, which was published on November 4, but it will have such an impact upon the reorganisation of the National Health Service that it cannot be isolated from this discussion. Some very odd results will emanate from the wish to make the suggested new local government boundaries coincide with the reorganisation of the National Health Service; that is to say, to make them coterminal.
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It will not be the first time that central Government have put forward from separate Departments plans which contradict the principle which each is trying to establish. One wonders whether the two Departments concerned merely glanced at a physical map and then became rather tired of the whole programme and turned back again towards disorganisation. The plans for the reorganisation of the National Health Service are well-known, and were clearly intended to accompany local government reorganisation. As I understood it, the policy was that local health authorities should have areas identical with the new local government areas and based on one or more hospital groups. It meant that many local government units recommended by the Royal Commission, and endorsed by last February's White Paper, would have hospitals within a mile or two of communities in differing counties. Thus the interests of the patients would come first. But the Bill now puts all areas for National Health Services back into the counties' maw to the marked detriment of the patients in the areas concerned.
I will give one example of what is happening here, although I could cite many. In one area in the North, a group of hospitals serves the border communities of two differing counties outside the one in which the hospitals are situated. Clearly, common sense showed itself, for these communities on the borders of other counties were only five to eight miles away from a very large general hospital; and general hospitals like that have served the community since the 1948 Act, and indeed for many years before that. One of these catchment areas is now to be detached from the hospital on its doorstep, and is to be administered by the council of the county in which it is situated, whose nearest hospital is more than 20 miles away, across roads which are almost impassable in winter months, and sometimes completely snowbound. The coterminal theory is clearly not universally valid. While it may be that a user agreement would be valid and could help to alleviate some of the worst problems, it would be a retrograde step and would not foster the establishment of a comprehensive Health Service in the community. I will not try

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to wring the withers of your Lordships, but perhaps I may be permitted to point out what might be the effect upon a patient of having to face a journey of 20 miles or more through ice and snow in the winter; and, equally important, what hardship there would be for visiting relatives and friends.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I want to make quite sure that the noble Lord realises that there will be no effect on patients because of these boundaries. There is no intention of restricting anybody from going to any hospital to which he wishes to go, or to which he is sent by his general practitioner.
LORD WRIGHT OF ASHTON UNDER LYNE: My Lords, I am interested to hear that. I will take the Minister's word for it, but I have been told that, as the county council will administer the health services in its area, ambulances and everything akin to them will be organised from (shall we say?) the main county town. If that is so, it means that the people in that area will be recommended, possibly instructed from somewhere, that their hospital is at such-and-such a place, some 20 miles away. I should like to hear more about the fact that in county areas, just across the border, the same sort of service may be rendered by a hospital in another county as has been the case for these last 10,15 or 20 years: because this would be very helpful as regards the patients' care.
This system is a bad thing for the general practitioners, too. They will be under the control of another county, yet all their interests will be centred on a hospital five or six, perhaps seven or eight, miles away, depending on where they are in their county. This is where they will go: they will not go 20 or 30 miles away to a postgraduate centre. It seems to me that the whole reorganisation is one of disorientation, because in point of fact in areas such as these—they are to be found in Derbyshire, in Yorkshire, in Lincolnshire and in quite a number of places—it seems pointless to insist on this co-terminal principle. I am very happy indeed that the Minister has just given us the assurance he has, but I should like to have a talk with him (not to-night of course; he has plenty to do)
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about this principle, because it is clear from my reading what will happen. From my reading, at least, it is clear that it will be under the control of the county authorities, and there is no mention anywhere that I have come across that patients may go to which hospital they wish. It seemed to me, when considering this problem, that someone had forgotten that hospitals are for man, and not man for hospitals. I trust that the Minister will explain what he very briefly pointed out to me: that terminal areas do not really count, in so far as the patients may go, or the doctors may send them. to any hospital they may wish to. A great many questions arise from this, and I shall be very glad to hear from the Minister about it later.
There are one or two other points—and I do not want to go on at length, because it is getting rather late. What I have had to say has been about hospitals, particularly in these peripheral areas in many parts of this country. I should like now to offer a word or two about the proposed area and regional boards, and perhaps about the suggested community health councils—though I shall have to cut out half of what I had intended to say in order to give others an opportunity to speak. Emphasis is placed upon the need for efficient management, and with this I agree. But if, as it would appear, there will be staff employed by area health authorities, regional authorities and possibly the central Department in relation to general practitioners, the management of area health boards will present a very complex problem. The membership of these boards will also need careful study, and while the need for medical and nursing staff is recognised, I personally feel that the professions supplementary to medicine should also be considered. Membership of such an authority should be broadly based with a wide cross-section of the population being required to serve on a selected rather than an elected basis. This may not suit a number of my friends. The noble Lord, Lord Platt, has gone, but I am with him in accepting that much should be a matter of selection, although I believe that means can be found for both nomination and election.
It will be necessary to remember that in health matters there is no end product

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of profit: the end product is a happy, healthy individual. We shall need to exercise great care in choosing managerial men or women to serve on authorities, lest we operate a Health Service in a ruthlessly efficient way but to the detriment of the patient. This risk has to be watched very carefully, for my own experience has shown that on the hospital management committee of which I am chairman the least effective people are the so-called business experts and managerial men. I get much more sense out of the pragmatic approach by earthy, "both feet on the floor" people, who see a point as quickly as anyone else. Of course, if it comes to the managerial techniques, work study and so on, this is another matter, and the experts are available. But do not always accept that the expert is right. My own experience in introducing work study into hospitals is that the work study experts are nearly always wrong, and if it were not for the watching brief of the hospital management committee members I do not think it would get off the ground at all—and in my own group we have everyone except those in one department work-studied.
My Lords, may I at this point make a suggestion to the noble Lord's Department concerning management? I suggest that they should offer some advice to hospital management committees or regional boards as to the costing of work study schemes. To-day no one knows whether a work study scheme is successful, whether it is saving money, whether it is losing money, whether it is a viable scheme or a good scheme, because there is no uniform costing. You just cannot compare like with like; and if regions and hospitals within a region are going to be able to compare like with like in the work study field, then it will he necessary for some advice to be given and for some model costing schedules to be given to them.
I am not happy as to whether the number of members on the area hoards (I think the figure suggested is about 14) will be large enough to meet the many committee responsibilities at the moment undertaken by the present health executive councils. On health executive councils at present there are, I think, about 28 members, generally. There are in most cases some dozen sub-committees. Among these are the payments com
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mittee, the dental committee, the surgery hours committee, the benefits committee —a whole host of them—as well as Case A Tribunals, such as opthalmic, dental and medical services, to name but three. The chairmen of these service committees, under the present structure, are always lay members. With 14 members, how on earth are we to service the many committees that I imagine will be required? In other words, all the committees that I have mentioned will be necessary; but how on earth we are going to get them from 14 members of an area board, I do not quite understand. If I could be given some advice on that point it would be very useful.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, would the noble Lord like it now? Would the noble Lord mind my interrupting now?
LORD WRIGHT OF ASHTON UNDER LYNE: Not at all.
LORD ABERDARE: The 14 members are the members of the area health authority. The family practitioner committee will be constituted very similarly to the present committee. So there will be quite a lot of members, many of them appointed by the area health authority.
LORD WRIGHT OF ASHTON UNDER LYNE: I see. I do not want a dialogue. but I should like to ask: who is going to co-opt these committees? Will the area board co-opt people to serve on the sub-committees? It seems to me that involvement by the people generally is losing ground. If the existing Governmental views are to persist it will clearly be important to have effective representation so that local attitudes may be known. It may be a case where incorporation within management structure might be a good thing; but thought needs to be given to the appointment of members to ensure that full account is taken of all the views of the public who are to be served.
There is one other point I should like to mention. it is the one raised by Lady Ruthven. She mentioned the advisory councils. I agree that not many people would be prepared to serve on advisory councils unless they believed that careful note would be made of any recommendations that they care to put up. The noble Lady asked whether this was going

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to be a lap dog or a dog with teeth. I would hope that this advisory council will have teeth. By that I do not mean that it should have the power of doing things or even the power of making recommendations that must be accepted; but I hope that it will be a meaningful committee, one that expresses the views of the people served by the National Health authorities in the districts and the hospitals; and that it would not be merely a supernumerary, as it were, tagged on to make it appear as if the views were being considered. I do not know how the Minister proposes to ensure that the council will be effective, but at least I hope that any advisory council will be put in a position where they must be heard. While one cannot say that notice must be taken of their recommendations, at least one hopes that the Minister will do all that he can to ensure that that does happen.
7.32 p.m.
LORD BROCK: My Lords, this is a highly complex matter that we are debating to-day and it is easy to get bogged down in the mass of problems involved. For my own part, I feel that I must be highly selective if I am to make any sense to myself and to contribute anything of profit to the debate. It is clear that Her Majesty's Government have spent immense care and effort in trying to formulate that improved organisation of the National Health Service which is the wish of us all. But I feel that I must consider which parts of the Document I should comment upon as a doctor and which parts are beyond my competence. The general answer I have given myself is that the main mass of the suggested new organisation and administration is a morass in which I could well get lost; and I have no wish to become involved in it. Better and more experienced minds than mine have produced it and I do not feel disposed to make any comment on it except to say that it would appear to be acceptable in improving integration. But the situation is different when I come to consider the recommendations in regard to London and, more specifically, in regard to the London teaching hospitals. Here I find we are faced with major general administrative revisions and profound alterations in the control of the teaching hospitals that would affect the
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medical performance of those hospitals in such a way as to have a serious effect on medical efficiency. On such a matter I must be deeply involved. It would be irresponsible of me not to say what I think about it.
My remarks are not intended to be aggressive or critical but to be analytical in character and perhaps may be in part informative to some noble Lords. The essence of the new plans seems to be full integration within the regions. I can see no objection to this; indeed I can see advantages when applied to provincial teaching centres and university hospitals, but I can see grave practical difficulties when the same method is applied to London and the London teaching hospitals. London presents an entirely separate problem.
If the Government were organising the country as a whole ab initio, I imagine that the policy of regionalisation could be applied efficiently and effectively to the London area. But we are not starting with a clear field. The complex of the London teaching hospitals is there. It is an established fact and a very real fact. It presents a very difficult and complicated problem of administration that will not be solved by wishing that it would go away. It is important that the revised administration of the London teaching hospitals should not impair their efficiency and medical success. The noble Lord. Lord Cobbold, has emphasised the close interdependence of hospitals and their medical schools. It was widely thought at the time of the Todd Report that unfriendly and unrealistic criticism was directed at the London teaching hospitals and medical schools and that this engendered the recommendations that they should be brought into line with the organisation of the provincial medical schools and teaching hospitals. Doubtless there are justifications for this recommendation, and even possible advantages, but the policy seems to ignore the historical fact of the evolution and the present-day formation of the London teaching hospitals. They just cannot be satisfactorily aligned with the provincial centres which are of a unitary character.
It is necessary to consider more deeply just what is the special problem in London, how it requires different handling

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and in what way this might be achieved. First of all, each teaching hospital has its own board of governors and has direct access to the centre Department. It is proposed that they should in future be controlled by a district committee and that their contact with the central Department should be via this district committee to the area authority, thence to the regional authority and only then to the central Department: that is four places removed from the centre.
It needs little emphasis to indicate the delays, frustrations and misdirections that are inevitable in such an arrangement. The mechanism may suffice for various mundane matters; but the success, the very position and importance of the teaching hospitals does not rest on mundane matters—it rests on advance and achievement due to teaching and research, as the noble Lord, Lord Hayter, has emphasised. Without these, progress is difficult or impossible. I am sure that your Lordships will agree that it would be very unfortunate if the forward progress of medicine in Great Britain were compromised by impairment of the function and freedom of the London teaching hospitals. This is bound to happen if direct access is lost to the central authority. The noble Baroness, Lady Brooke, referred to the organisation of the regional authority becoming top heavy or with too many distractions. At present, men and women of high calibre and ability are pleased to give their services to the boards of the London teaching hospitals. It is certain that many of them, especially those of high ability and who hold important posts in public life, will not be satisfied to give their time and experience to serve on the equivalent of lesser hospital committees under the direction of several tiers of control. We would have to expect many resignations.
My Lords, in the provinces it is possible to correlate the requirements of the teaching hospital with the regional authority. This is not feasible in London. The overlap of population areas served by each teaching hospital prevents any proper correspondence with the areas of local authorities. It is not even possible to get any adequate correspondence between population areas and the regional areas of the four major regions in London. There is complete confusion between local areas, borough boundaries
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and the areas served by the 12 London teaching hospitals.
If we examine a regional map of London we see that the surrounding boundary of the composite four regions is largely stable and precise, but that the composition of each of the regions, both internally and in their external relationship, is in the nature of a jig-saw puzzle, the confusion of which is made worse by superimposition and the complex overlapping between teaching hospital areas, borough boundaries and local authorities. It is difficult to see how any logical co-ordination can come from such a confused picture. It is suggested that the affairs of the teaching hospitals should be in the hands of the regional authority which will control the available funds. The decision as to how these will be allocated must inevitably be the subject of local pressures. Funds for the teaching hospitals should not be subject to local pressures but should be controlled at national level which, by permitting direct allocation of funds, can alone permit unimpeded progress in the advance of teaching and research in the teaching hospitals. When one looks at the composition of interlocking and overlapping areas of influence in the London scene it seems as if no satisfactory solution can be found. The Government seem eager to maintain a correlation with the local authorities, because of the control of social services that are to he in the hands of the local authorities. But the social services comprise less than 10 per cent. of health activities. Over 90 per cent. are unconnected with social service. It would therefore appear illogical to finalise a situation so that such a small percentage of endeavour controlled such a large percentage. A very small tail will wag a very large dog.
My Lords, a solution is difficult to visualise, but a strong case can be made out, indeed has been made out, for a continuance of some substantial degree of autonomy on the part of the London teaching hospitals with direct access to the central Department and with no intervening administration. How can this be done, especially when one recognises the confusion that exists between the make-up and disposition of the present four metropolitan regions? It has been suggested, and I put it forward as a sound suggestion that offers a good solution to the problem,

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that as the outer boundary of the four London regions is definite, these should form a single London region. This single large region could be controlled by a united London authority, or perhaps a teaching hospitals committee, which would be responsible for its administration. The teaching hospitals could then have access to the central Department direct and not through a number of other controlling authorities. They would do this as members of a group and not as 12 separate hospitals. I must emphasise that the teaching hospitals committee should have direct access to the central Department and not with the regional authority intervening. Such a plan would seem to carry the bones of success and acceptability, and I hope that the Secretary of State will give it the consideration that it deserves as offering a solution to the present problem that has not been fully answered by the Consultative Document. This plan may have its own difficulties and drawbacks, but it provides an answer to the present plan which, in its present form, is unacceptable to many. I understand that finality has not been reached. that new decisions can be made, and I hope that the Secretary of State will give long and deep thought before he imperils the future success of our 12 London teaching hospitals.
7.42 p.m.
LORD ANNAN: My Lords, may I say something in general terms and then follow up the details with which the noble Lord, Lord Brock, has been dealing? It seems to me that we have been having an interesting discussion this evening about something that is very often concealed, though it is at the heart of politics; and that is power. And the question the Consultative Document deals with is where power resides. Why did we have four documents before we ever had a National Health Service? We had four plans. Why did we have two Green Papers, and why are we still feeling our way towards a White Paper in our own time? It is, of course, because we are trying to reconcile the power bids by different interests, and the first of these interests could be in itself a composite set of interest groups, the medical profession. The important groups are the Harley Street consultants, the general practitioners the teaching hospitals, the medical
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schools (which, incidentally, can be pressurised by the Royal Colleges) and the nurses, the largest single group of workers in the Health Service. There are also the hospital administrators, and the local authorities; and, lastly, comes the patient, for whose benefit the Health Service exists and who needs most protection. because the patients are less well organised.
The question I want to ask is this. Does the Consultative Document get the power structure right? The second Green Paper tried to redress the balance between these different interest groups by devolution, and the Consultative Document also goes in for devolution. But it introduces this strong regional tier about which we have heard so much this evening, and it is the region which is going to allocate funds to the area health authorities and which will probably appoint the majority of their members. I believe that the Secretary of State will find himself under very strong pressure to appoint consultants to the majority of the medical members of these authorities. What I fear, therefore, is that these regional advisory committees, which is where so much of the power will lie, will come to be dominated by consultants, and I should expect the consultants to tend to resist changes in the hospital service which upset their empires. They will be well placed to bring pressure to bear on the hoards, and to stop particular area authorities from doing anything or operating any health centre with very wide functions. The consultants will also have a strong voice when it comes to deciding where particular specialities are to be located, or what goods and manpower are to be provided.
I think we ought to be clear about what the change from the Green Paper to the Consultative Document means. It means that the general practitioner is going to have far less influence. It means that local authorities will also lose influence. The majority of the members of the area authorities are now to be appointed from above, and that means, I believe, that they will not be so responsive to local interests and local opinions. Even the consumer councils are now to be appointed by the area health authorities, and this means that the sort of people who sometimes have the guts or the impudence—whichever way you like

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to put it—to raise a fuss in the Press, or to probe about into what goes on behind the scenes, will tend to be kept out of the Service. I think that all this will diminish the power of the weakest of the interest groups; that is to say, the patients.
But while, as your Lordships see, I am anxious on behalf of the patients, and am anxious on behalf of general practitioners, I am also, despite the fears of the noble Baroness, Lady Serota, anxious on behalf of the hospital administrators. To-night we have heard much about management, as if it were a dirty word, and I was pleased that the noble Viscount, Lord Davidson, and indeed other speakers, said that management need not necessarily be something which is hostile to the interests of everything that we arc trying to achieve in the Service. One of the worries I have about the management structure as described in the Consultative Document is that there is so little provision for paid members. I ask whether this might be reconsidered. There should be at least a chairman and vice-chairman, and some members of these boards, who would be paid, because the quality of the people who serve matters very greatly. I would also suggest that we shall not get what we want in management unless behind management—and indeed embedded (if I may use such a word) in management—is the local vocal criticism of the community; which could give management just the lever it needs to keep the medical profession from becoming a little too set in its ways.
So much for the general points. May I now pass to the special situation of London, and the special needs of London University—and here I can keep my remarks much briefer than they would have been but for the most powerful speech which has just been made by the noble Lord, Lord Brock. My Lords, I think everyone agrees that a wide range of clinical facilities needs to be available for medical education. Some people think that the best way of ensuring it would be to arrange sectors extending out into Greater London. I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, could give us some hope that the Department would consider altering the concept of teaching districts as set out in the Consultative Document and accept the
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notion that these health areas in which there are medical schools should be designated as teaching health areas. I very much hope, also, that the Secretary of State will agree that if we accept that the two existing medical schools, paired according to the Todd Report recommendations, are to count as one general medical school, not more than one general medical school should he in a teaching health area.
I hope that the Department are not wedded irrevocably to the principle that borough boundaries and health areas must be coterminous. I know that this point has been raised before, but I wonder whether it would he possible to arrange for more than one contiguous borough to be included in a teaching health area. In the University of London we tend to get the impression that the Department rather dislike the King's/St. Thomas/Westminster project, and are not at all happy about the marriage of Middlesex and St. Mary's. But, after all, the Department have accepted the first of these marriages front an educational point of view, and we had therefore hoped that they would accept the administrative consequences. I recognise that here I am discussing a highly technical and controversial matter, but many of us in the University of London believe that eventually there must be a joining together of the pairs of teaching hospitals once their twinned medical schools are working as a unit. I realise that this will not he popular with the Teaching Hospitals' Association, and I do not know whether I can carry the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, with me on this point (I was extremely sorry that I missed his speech this afternoon, but I had to attend a statutory meeting), because he may well hold the view that the maximum size of the unit for administrative purposes might be about the size of the Middlesex Hospital, which has prospered so much under his good chairmanship. But can London hospitals still continue in their splendid isolation, which is often a spur to even more ferocious encounters in the Hospitals' Rugger Cup? My hope is that we can look forward in future to more co-operation between hospitals.
May I end by emphasising that the plans for the development of postgraduate hospitals are made at the same

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time as we are planning for the teaching hospitals, and unless this is done we shall never get the proper distribution of hospital beds in specialisation or specialties such as ophthalmology, ear, nose and throat, and orthopaedics. I will not detain your Lordships longer with special pleading, but I hope that these points may be borne in mind.
LORD COBBOLD: My Lords, may I intervene, as the noble Lord mentioned my name. I do see tremendous difficulty in going quickly to such a large unit as the twin hospitals would comprise in administrative terms, but I would assure your Lordships that a great deal of cooperation is already going on between Middlesex and St. Mary's, as I happen to know, in matters of arranging where specialties are undertaken.
7.52 p.m.
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, no one who has served in local government can come to this debate to-day without a feeling of deep regret that this Government, like the previous Government, are proposing in their reorganisation of the National Health Service to remove the personal health services from local government entirely. The principal reasons given in the Green Paper, published earlier in 1970, are the desire of the professional medical service for clinical freedom and finance—this despite the suggestion contained in the Report of the Royal Commission on Local Government, under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Redcliffe-Maud, of the possibility of unifying responsibility under local government. It does, however, seem ironic that, at the very moment when the Local Government Bill, one of the principal aims of which is to strengthen local government, is being discussed in another place, the Consultative Document proposes to take away one of the oldest and most important of local government services.
Lest it be thought that all local government health services are either inadequate or unco-ordinated, I should like to say, in the spirit of an obituary notice, what has happened in my own authority. There is no evidence from the hospitals of lack of co-operation, and as a health authority we were the first to introduce a scheme for the attachment of health
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visitors to the general practitioner service. This scheme was started in 1956, fifteen years ago, and was completed in 1963. A further scheme of attachment of midwives and district nurses to general practitioners was started in 1967 and is now nearly complete. Two-thirds of general practitioners now work either full-time or part-time in purpose-built local authority health centres or clinics, and there is close co-operation between the hospital service and the city social service department.
Over local government as a whole there are many examples that can be cited of pioneering schemes, particularly in the field of preventive medicine. I realise that this is past history, and I should therefore like to go on to make two general points on the Consultative Document, which at present concern the local government system. Everyone in local government must welcome, I am sure, the proposal that area health boards are to be coterminous with the new county boundaries. What does cause concern is the proposed membership. Paragraph 17 indicates that there may be fifteen members on an area board or sixteen for an area with a teaching hospital. These boards will be responsible for very large areas. For example, the new Oxfordshire has a population of 500,000, and out of the fourteen representatives perhaps seven would come from local government—that is, one to every 70,000 of the population. In the new Hampshire, with a population of 1,466,000, seven or fewer of the representatives would mean one local government representative to every 200,000 people.
As the Association of Municipal Corporations has pointed out in its evidence, no one wants the new boards not to pay due regard to the needs of efficiency, but this must be coupled with knowledge of the needs of the locality, let alone the needs of the patient. It seems that with so small a membership, members will not be able to know at first hand the conditions they are considering or the service for which they are responsible. There is no suggestion that the members, with the exception of the chairman, will be other than part-time volunteers. Indeed, the Consultative Document does not define very clearly the role either of members or of members in relation to the professionals.

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It may well be argued that it is the job of the community health councils to take up more detailed problems. I welcome the opening remark of the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, which (if I understood him correctly) meant that the areas of the community health councils will be coterminous with the areas of the new districts. I hope that this may be so, because if they are based on the hospitals, this may create confusion in the minds of the public. But here again we find that the nomination of members of the new community health councils will be by area. Will these people be prepared to speak out against the system, if necessary? And how will the public really know who they are, if they wish to make a complaint? I myself did not quite understand the statement in the Consultative Document that there may be difficulties and confusion between management, on the one hand, and the community's reaction to management, on the other, because if the community health council has power, it surely should have power with responsibility. If it does not have responsibility, then it is dangerous to give it power. But perhaps it is not intended to have power at all, and, if that is so, what really is its purpose?
I make these points because surely it must be our belief that the needs of efficiency are served better when matched by the public accountability and discussion represented by local democracy. The whole procedure of election, of discussion in committee and of final discussion in a democratically elected organisation is surely something which has proved its worth in local government. And discussion is not simply for criticism. Discussion can frequently lead to public education. May I quote one example that has recently come to my notice in the field of preventive medicine? In the field of the preventing of cancer, our authority started a scheme for cervical cytology some six years ago. This depends not only on the administrative ability of identifying those women at risk; it also requires a very complicated follow up of domiciliary visiting service and demands an enormous amount of skill and patient work in overcoming the very real fears of people coming forward to take these tests. The fact that there can be an annual report of the medical officer of health, from which all these detailed
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aspects of public health can be known and can be considered and discussed, can add up to a great deal of public education, and it seems to me that this very valuable aspect could well be lost.
The second general point that I should like to make is that of the co-ordination of the National Health Service with the social service departments of the new counties. Here it seems to me that very clear guide-lines must be laid down for co-ordination of administration. Otherwise the known present difficulties, when hospitals complain that too many beds are taken up by patients who could be discharged if only local authorities would provide the community care, will continue. "Co-ordination" sounds very splendid, but it must be clearly laid down what is meant by this, and there must be the will to make it work. It will not happen simply because administration says that it should happen.
Then there are two services which appear to people in local government to be left in a kind of limbo. These are the school health service and the child guidance service. Again I very much welcome the opening remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, when he said that a special Committee is considering this question. This seems to me to be extremely important. Local government has just gone through the tremendous upheaval of establishing social services departments whose aim is the unification of social services under one roof in local government and to make clear to the public that there is, as it were, one door on which to knock if they want to find out anything about the social services. At least the present school health service is administered by the same authority as the social services. If it becomes part of the National Health Service it will be administered by a different authority. There are many occasions when the identification of children at risk must come through the school medical service, and the treatment of such children through the child guidance service. I hope that we shall know what the future links are to be between the school medical service and future education and social service departments which will be in the new county authorities.
My Lords, if I may add one more point, there is no mention of the whole

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subject of health education, which is of great concern to education authorities. By this I do not mean quite simply a euphemism for sex education, although that is frequently part of it, but education in the much wider aspect of health, such as hygiene, diet, the problems of smoking and of drugs. Where will this fall in the new reorganised Health Service?
In conclusion, I would say that I have deliberately confined my remarks to the local authority health service. No one, certainly not myself, believes that in local government to-day all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds. But surely it is necessary to show, not only to the loyal and hard-working staff in local government services throughout the country as a whole, but also to the public at large, that the proposed changes really will mean an improved service for the public.
8.3 p.m.
VISCOUNT WAVERLEY: My Lords, almost exactly 12 years ago your Lordships debated the hospital services on a Motion of my noble friend Lord Stonham, and it is about the hospital services that I wish to speak to-day. On that occasion I ventured to talk for the first time in this House. I said:
"I think it is generally conceded that one of the most important consequences of the National Health Service Act has been the progressive development of the non-teaching Regional Board hospitals."
I declared my interest, being then, as now, a consultant physicial at such a hospital. I went on to say:
"Not only the welfare of patients, but our reputation in world medicine increasingly depends on the way our provincial hospitals can acquit themselves."
They have acquitted themselves well, and I do not believe that any of your Lordships with medical, administrative, or, if it has happened, consumer experience would gainsay that. But this debate is about the future. I am fearful for the future of district hospitals. My anxieties are on two main grounds: administrative and financial. There are of course considerable areas of overlap between these. The Secretary of State has said in his Foreword to the Document:
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"Doctors have played a large part in the planning and management of the existing service and will continue to do so in the future."
No doubt they will. But will they be the right doctors to safeguard the present and, more importantly, the future of district hospitals?
Medical participation in hospital management has been recognised as of fundamental importance since the Health Service began. This recognition was strongly emphasised by the joint Working Party on the organisation of medical work in hospitals—the Cogwheel Report. In district hospitals where the Cogwheel system operates there is a continuous line of communication between all grades of medical staff, from the most junior to the most senior, and to the hospital management committee. In future there will be no hospital management committees. If the Cogwheel system is retained in any recognisable form, to whom will advice be tendered on behalf of any particular district hospital? This can only be to the area authority involved. In the rare event of there being only one district hospital in an area, this arrangement may be just administratively workable but where there are two or more such hospitals in an area, this surely must be a recipe for some sort of chaos.
Medical representation on an area authority is to consist of "at least" two doctors. In practice, it is probable that this will mean just two. It is also probable that one will be a general practitioner, detached from the problems of even one district hospital, let alone two or more. The other may or may not be a hospital consultant. If he is, only one district hospital from several will be personally represented. Surely, here are sown the seeds of discord. An area authority imperfectly seized of local problems will no doubt do its best to arbitrate between conflicting demands and interest, but will its best be good enough? I regard it as in the highest degree improbable. The area authority will be too remote from the district daily scene, too out of touch with realities for coherent administration.
The financial consequences to district hospitals are likely to be grievous, and this at a time when developments in medical investigation and treatment are advancing faster and more expensively than ever before. The area authority will

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be required to finance the whole Health Service, save for general practitioners' salaries and certain, as yet, ill-defined areas which will continue to be the responsibility of the local authority. With almost no representation on the area authority, and, where there is more than one district hospital, no professional representation at all for the others, how can adequate district hospital funds be ensured? And even if they could be ensured, with so many competing and, beyond doubt, glamorous demands on available money, how could this remote authority hold the scales equitably between a number of district hospitals whose varying needs it could but opaquely understand? My Lords, at a time when expenditure on hospital services subserving similar functions to our district hospitals is rising all over the world, I fear it is inevitable that expenditure here will fall, and that it may fall very seriously.
Since the appointed day the status of district hospitals has been steadily rising. They have therefore been able to attract consultants of the highest calibre. This in turn has attracted correspondingly excellent junior medical staff. Success breeds success. Medical students have increasingly been seconded from their teaching schools to district hospitals for elective or longer periods. All in the present district hospital garden may not be lovely, but there is at least a garden. If, unhappily, my anxieties prove well-founded, and if, for administrative or financial reasons—or both—the status of district hospitals declines, the future will be grim indeed. In truth, my Lords, there will be no future, only a progressive slither of a vital part of this country's hospital service into mediocrity, and no chance then of recovery in any foreseeable future; for emigration of too many of our brightest young medical people will, I fear, have seen to that.
8.10 p.m.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, I am very glad that it does not fall to me to wind up this debate in the generally accepted sense. There have been so many excellent speeches that I would fear to pass over a single one of them. They have been extraordinarily well informed; most of them have been brief and certainly to the point. It has been a debate that has been well worth while to listen
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to. Speaking particularly on the Welsh aspect—and that is my job here to-night —of the reorganisation of the Health Service, I must put it on record that it is now 60 years since the first giant stride was taken in the direction of a National Health Service by the National Insurance Act 1911. Certainly when it came to framing the National Health Act 1946 the late Mr. Aneurin Bevan owed a tremendous debt to the pioneering effort of another great Welshman, David Lloyd-George. The country in turn owes both a tremendous debt of gratitude. For, despite any weaknesses that might have shown themselves, our Health Service has served the country well, and it behoves us in making changes to try to be reasonably certain that the new structure will give to the patient, and those engaged in it, a better Service than that which is to go. I agree with something that was said in the last debate on this general topic by the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe: that we ought to be very careful when changing something that we are not destroying a system which has been built up in this country about which we can be proud and to which the world can look with some admiration.
In speaking here to-night I am not going to fight the long since lost battle of local government control of the Health Service, although Aneurin Bevan in his book, In Place of Fear, when discussing the Health Service some six years after the Act of 1946, admitted the difficulties of selection of the controlling bodies by the Minister of Health, and concluded:
"Election is better than selection …"
and that:
"…a solution might be found if the reorganisation of local government is sufficiently fundamental to allow the administration of hospitals to be entrusted to the revised units of local government."
I have always understood (perhaps wrongly, but I do not think so) that the difficulty of putting the new Health Service under the local authorities lay in the fact that the professional bodies, whose good will was essential to the establishment and success of the Service, were strongly opposed to accepting service under the local authorities. In this matter the professions got their way. My late friend Aneurin Bevan was an idealist, but he was also realist enough to agree to the submissions of the professions

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rather than risk losing the Service altogether. I do not think there is any doubt at all that the late Labour Government. when framing their proposals, faced the same problem and arrived at the same conclusion, but they would have given a much greater representation to the local authorities than is now proposed in this Consultative Document.
Labour would have had the health boards composed as to one-third from members of local authorities, one-third from the health professions and one-third, plus the Chairman, appointed by the Secretary of State. From that decision this Government have retreated, perhaps for the reason of professional opposition; of that I am not informed or aware. I am bound to say that the experience of the past 25 years points to the need for a greater element of democratic representation through elected local government representatives on the controlling bodies, even if full democratic control is not practicable.
I will not range over the whole Service covered by the two Documents. The main criticisms that we have in speaking from this Box have already been admirably put by my noble friend Lady Serota. She called attention to the fact that this debate is really about the patient, the person who will use the National Health Service. Although everything we talk about must be related to him, clearly management must enter into the matter, and I was glad that stress was laid on the fact that management counts, that we have to think in terms of good management, always provided that that management is directed at the patient and at the person who will, we hope, profit and be the better for the existence of the National Health Service. Speaking about the Document for Wales, I can say straightaway that I am in agreement with the decision to vary the structure for Wales from the pattern proposed for England. For once the decision had been taken to hand over the responsibility for the administration of the Health Service in Wales to the Secretary of State for Wales, separate consideration of some of the changes to the National Health Service became necessary and desirable.
The differences proposed are not very great, but they take into consideration the
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relation of the responsible Minister to a smaller and more immediately manageable area. To cut out the regional tier is the right thing to do, for in Wales there will be only eight health authorities, and a direct relationship with the Welsh Office should present no practical difficulties at all. The area is small enough; the possibility of direct approach is there; the communication would be reasonably easy and, for that reason, I agree with the decision not to have anyone or any body between the Secretary of State for Wales and the area health authorities.
The first question that I might have had to put to the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, was one relating to the fact that under the Bill now before the other House there are to be eight county councils instead of the seven mentioned in the Consultative Document. But, almost by accident, I have stumbled on the fact —it was in answer to a Question for Written Answer in the other place which appears on the last page of Hansard of the other place for last Friday—that the Secretary of State for Wales has announced that the South Glamorgan authority in Wales will itself have an area health authority, and that the teaching proposals contained in that particular paragraph of the Document will in fact pass to the authority that will be set up under the South Glamorgan County Council area; that is, the area health authority. This seems to me to be very sensible. The only point I would raise in this connection is this. It appears to me that there will be only one district committee—only one district—in South Glamorgan. I wonder whether this will be the case; whether it will be the one that will be based largely on the teaching hospital, the University of Wales Hospital, or whether there will be more than one for that particular area. If there is only one, then clearly there will be only a single community health council. I should like to ask the noble Lord to tell us, when he comes to reply, whether this is the case. Will there be just one district committee to be appointed by the area health authority, and will there be only one community health council to go with it?
The next point upon which I should appreciate some enlightenment is that of

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a sentence in paragraph 6 of the document where, in relation to the area health authorities, it is said:
"They will be able to administer their integrated health services through a pattern of health districts where this is desirable for administration or other reasons."
Does that mean that in some areas the whole of the services may be administered by the area health authorities; and, if so, what provision will there be in such areas for advice on the public's views of the service? I ask this because we are told that the community health councils are to be based on the health districts, and these very words that I have read out place some little doubt on whether or not there will in fact be in all areas health districts decided upon. I must admit that I find the references to health districts a little nebulous; and it is difficult to see (and the Document does not tell me) what will be their size, or whether within a given area health authority area there will be district committees for, say, the hospital service and others for the health services to be transferred from the local authority, and each with its community health council.
Then what of the separately financed committee for the family practitioner service which will deal directly with the Secretary of State but is also to have a direct approach to the area health authority? Which of the district community councils, if any, will cover that service and that committee? And how does the Minister visualise the closer working of the family practitioner service with hospitals and local authorities, as mentioned in paragraph 9? This is an aspect that was referred to by a number of noble Lords—certainly by my noble friend Lady Summerskill and the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, and others. How is this integration going to work out? How is it going to be possible to secure the co-operation between this particular committee and the family doctor as a member of that particular group and the area health authority which will have such an important part to play in this service.
As I see the service visualised in the Document, we are going to have at the top—and I agree that there is no need in Wales for the two-tier arrangement as projected for England—the Welsh Office taking decisions on overall planning and
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the allocation of resources. Advising that Office there will be constituted a Welsh Health Council; and here I part company with the proposals. I can see no earthly reason why the task of advising the Welsh Office should not be given to the already existing Welsh Council. That is a body composed of a very wide range of interests, of which 10 of the 37 members are appointed by virtue of their membership of local authorities, and I gather that the Council has powers of co-option that could be used to strengthen the composition on the health side if that were deemed necessary.
That body, the existing Welsh Council, has itself admitted that at present it is not constituted in such a way as to undertake the executive work to be carried out by the Welsh Office. But, judging by what it says in its report for the years 1968 to 1971, not only would it be prepared to undertake the work of advising, but it also claims that it is in a unique position to offer advice on broad policy matters. It goes on to strengthen its claim by adding that it already reviews public expenditure forecasts on new capital works, including health expenditure. Clearly, such a body, with members drawn from a wide range of interests, ought to be given this task of advising the Secretary of State on health matters affecting Wales. To set up one more body of 20 to 30 members, and equip it with the necessary staff and offices, would be a waste of public money and of the time of people who ought to be otherwise occupied. I hope that the Secretary of State will give special consideration to this matter. This Welsh Council has been set up. It exists. It exists for the purpose of advising the Welsh Office and the Secretary of State, and this health side should certainly be a part of its functions.
On the composition of the area health authorities, it is obviously right for the matching local authority to appoint some of the members as mentioned in the Document; but no number is given, no proportion. I think that at least one-third of the membership of those authorities ought to be drawn from that source; that is, the local authority source. Such a figure as a minimum ought to be embodied in the Act which will govern the composition. In addition to the local

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government matching authority members, there ought, too, to be at the area health authority level a strong, representation of the local government district councils, for they are very much at the grass roots of this whole matter and closely in touch with the public. That, surely, is what these area health authorities are going to have to try to do: to keep in touch with what is being said and what is being done in the localities.
My Lords, if there is to be the improvement in the relationship between the local authority and the general Health Service there must be real integration, as stressed by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Lichfield, and illustrated by my noble friend Lady Summerskill, between the county councils and the area health authorities. This integration is absolutely essential if we are to secure the sort of service we want to see—absolutely essential if we are going to get away from some of the other difficulties that have shown themselves in the past twenty-five years. I welcome the proposal for the setting up of the community health councils. I hope that they will fill the gap that exists in the Health Service; namely, to whom does a dissatisfied patient or relative turn to complain? The noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Ilton, brought out this point very strongly. I must say that I liked her speech very much. I was a little disturbed about one aspect of it, because she reminded me, when she was talking of the dying and those about to die, that I have passed my allotted span.
However, the community health councils must not only exist but also be seen to exist. The members of it must be known and they must not be tucked away in anonymous obscurity. How we are going to achieve this I do not know. When I was a member of an urban district authority, all the people in my area seemed to know that I represented them on that authority. They wore a groove in my doorstep when they came to see me about the difficult matters which they felt mattered enormously to them—housing, their children's education, and so on. I should like to see this community health council constructed in such a way and their membership advertised in such a way that people would be able
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to turn to them immediately they had some problem about a patient in hospital, or somebody else needing the sort of care that can be given under the old local authority service, and so on. I should love to see a situation created in which some of the people who are appointed to these community councils would also have grooves worn in their doorsteps. It would be a good thing: good for the service, good for the feeling that they belong and that people belong to this country and this service of ours.
Turning to the health districts, which we are told will administer the Hearth Service for the area health authorities, I should very much like to know more about these. Will they be based on a geographical district, or a hospital district, or a local government district council area, or how will they be based? Has a decision been taken on this matter, or is this one of the matters which will be considered by the Working Party which I gather will be looking into management structures and so on—a joint Working Party to be set up with English and Welsh members? This is going to be an extremely important subject. I think the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, was right to stress its importance, but I wonder whether it will embrace in its consideration the sort of questions that I have been asking as to the geographical or some other form of district. It seems to me that for the sake of public understanding there is a strong case for the health district having boundaries coterminous with those of the local government district councils. I think this would help a lot. People would understand those boundaries and would understand the areas.
My Lords, I said at the outset that I was not going to fight over again the lost battle of local government control of the Health Service, but I do assert that there is an overwhelming case for a large degree of democratic participation in the community health councils, the area health authorities and the All-Wales Council. If the Government persist in their proposal not to use the Welsh Council I think it will be a big mistake. Certainly there is a great need for the projected community health councils to be closely in touch with the elected representatives in the area. My Lords, I conclude where other noble Lords have

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concluded—and indeed many have mentioned it in other parts of their speech—that we cannot leave this matter to-night without thanking all those, at whatever level, who, despite its structural faults, have been responsible for the striking advances that have been made in our Health Service, which is, in many respects, an example to the world. I am sure we should all join in paying tribute to all those people who have done so much for us and for this Service of which we are rightly proud.
8.35 p.m.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I should like to start by thanking all of your Lordships who have contributed to this debate. It has been a most fascinating one to listen to, and that has made my task in winding up even more daunting. With 25 speakers I realised that if I only devote one minute to each speaker I shall keep your Lordships for 25 minutes. In fact I have wanted to leap to my feet at the end of each speech. I did actually interrupt on several occasions, for which I apologise. I was trying to clear up what I thought were one or two factual errors while they were fresh in my mind. I assure your Lordships that everything that has been said to-day will be most carefully studied. I will write to any of your Lordships who have requested answers from me and whom I am not able to answer at the moment. A number of questions were raised which really lie outside the field of National Health Service reorganisation, and I propose, if I may, not to go into them. But they will all be carefully studied. May I say, too, how grateful I was to the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill. I did not agree with much of what she said, especially about tearing up the whole Paper; but she had the kindness to say that my right honourable friend had an open mind and was able to change it when he was convinced by the arguments. This indeed is true, and this has certainly been an interesting debate which I am sure he will read and find influential.
My Lords, may I pick out one or two main themes? One was the question of the teaching hospitals, which was raised by a number of your Lordships, particularly those with very deep personal knowledge of these hospitals. May I say to the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold,
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how sorry we shall be when he gives up as Lord Chamberlain tomorrow. We have enjoyed his occasional appearances here in a tailcoat, and I know that he has been a very distinguished holder of that Office. But perhaps we shall see even more of him in the hospital service. to our great gratification and assistance. My noble friend Lord Cottesloe, my noble friend Lord Reigate, the noble Lord, Lord Annan, and the noble Lord, Lord Brock, all mentioned this matter of the hospital service. We fully recognise the contribution that these hospitals have made to medical education and to the practice of medicine, and we intend that they should maintain and develop this contribution in a reorganised Health Service. The hospitals will retain their individual identity and historic traditions, and their medical school associations and the special services they provide will be unaffected. The question at issue is their administration, and in particular the statutory committee structure and their relationship with the rest of the National Health Service. Within this limited field of administration our aim is to secure a properly balanced development of community and hospital facilities to meet the needs of teaching, research and services to the public. This can be achieved, we believe, by bringing the teaching hospitals within the general framework of a unified regional and area administration. But within this framework we are ready to make special arrangements to meet the special circumstances of the teaching hospitals, and the particular problems that arise in London from the location of hospitals in relation to the population they serve.
The issues are very difficult, and until we have completed the consultations and studies which we arc undertaking we cannot announce firm proposals. But it has become clear that the tentative proposal we made in the Consultative Document for teaching district committees has disadvantages, and certainly it has found little or no favour with those who commented on the Document. Our present thinking, therefore, has moved away from this concept to that of the teaching area of health authorities (I think the noble Lord, Lord Annan, made this point)with full operational responsibility for providing an integrated Health Service, including teaching hospitals, and as the noble Lord, Lord Champion, has seen from

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the Written Answer in the Commons Hansard on Friday, it is proposed to do the same in the Glamorgan Area Health Authority. My Lords, the management structure within areas, both teaching and non-teaching, is being examined by the Management Study, and we envisage that decisions about the studies under new authorities will be left to be taken in the light of guidance from this Study.
My noble friend Lord Cottesloe mentioned the position of the postgraduate teaching hospitals, and said that it would not be practicable for the management of these hospitals to change by April, 1974;and certainly this is true. That will depend upon the development of convenient associations between them and other teaching hospitals. We therefore have in mind that for a transitional period from April, 1974, they will need to remain under their own boards of governors. I fully acknowledge the point he made: Hammersmith is a very special case to which we shall have to give very full consideration, no doubt in close consultation with him. We also undertake to consider the proposal put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, about the five-year transitional period. I think that there are considerable difficulties in this idea, but we can discuss it.
Another major point raised during the debate concerned general practitioners. The noble Baroness, Lady Serota, the noble Lords, Lord Reigate and Lord Amulree, the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, the noble Lords, Lord Platt and Lord Champion, all referred to the general practitioners and the new proposed family practitioner committees. The Consultative Document proposal that each area health authority should be required to set up a committee with a composition similar to that of executive councils to administer the contracts of family practitioners follows the proposal on the same lines in the second Green Paper. It has been welcomed by family practitioner and executive council interests as it preserves the independent contractual status of the four professions.
On the other hand, some of your Lordships have criticised it on the grounds that these family practitioner committees are unnecessary or even a hindrance to the integration of the health services. It
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has been argued that to set up statutory committees dealing directly with the Department and separately financed may encourage continued isolation of the family practitioners from the rest of the health services. I think this fear, although understandable, is mistaken. Paragraphs 21 and 22 make clear that the job of these new committees will be to administer contracts—that is pay, terms of service, complaints machinery and so forth—which are concerned with the general practitioners; on these matters the committee will deal direct with the Department, as they are matters affecting the independent contractual status of the general practitioner. They will certainly be consulted on wider issues, such as provision and siting of health centres, location and layout of practice premises, attachment of community nursing and other skilled staff, facilities for general practitioners in hospitals and so forth, which involve other parts of the health services and their planning and development, but it will be the area health authority that will determine policy on such matters. I would remind your Lordships that these committees will have 50 per cent. professional membership, as at present. The plan is that the remaining 50 per cent. should be largely at any rate, appointed, by the area health authority so that the area health authority will have a considerable influence within these committees, and of course they will cover the same area as the area health authority.
Another major point mentioned by many of your Lordships was that of voluntary service. It was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Auckland. He has apologised for not being able to stay. As your Lordships know, he has recently suffered a bereavement and I know you would wish me to express our sympthy; we certainly understand why he could not stay. I can say that the change in administrative structure will certainly not mean that the strong links with many voluntary bodies of local services will disappear. On the contrary, we are very keen to encourage them all we can. The present arrangements for the provision of services by voluntary bodies will be continued and, where possible, extended by the area health authorities. Further encouragement will be given to individual volunteers who wish to give their services direct

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to their local health service. The recent growth of paid organisers of voluntary work in hospitals will continue, and we hope that as a result of reorganisation it may be possible to extend this and to arrange for joint appointments to coordinate voluntary help both in the hospital and in the community. We are confident that the voluntary organisations and voluntary workers will respond fully and enthusiastically to these new opportunities, and my right honourable friend is already in very close touch with many of them.
My noble friend Lady Brooke mentioned in particular the W.R.V.S. She knows very well the respect in which I, too, held Lady Reading, and I can assure her that the wonderful service that we receive from the W.R.V.S.—just to mention one organisation because there are enormous numbers of others—is a source of great strength to the Health Service and one that we shall not easily let slip. We are very keen to develop all the voluntary services, not least the Hospital Friends. Here may I say how grateful I am to the noble Lady, Lady Ruthven, for her contribution. She leads the Hospital Friends and we are very grateful for all they do. She had some words to say about the community health councils. I think if she reads what I said in opening, she will find that most of the points she raised which have to do with the community health councils I tried to cover in that speech.
The noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, was kind enough to give me notice of his points, all of which concerned the staff of the Service. I agree so much with him and with the noble Lord, Lord Champion, whose last words were on this subject, that the staff of the Service are by far the most important people we have; without their co-operation and without the continuation of the sort of service they have given hitherto we shall not gain by reorganisation. He asked about a central training board. My right honourable friend is sympathetic to the idea of new arrangements for providing co-ordinated advice. That does not mean that we are looking for something like a new industrial training board, building up a, separate organisation of its own; we do not think that would be appropriate to the reorganised Service. What we are
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considering is ways of providing more unified advice, and I can assure the noble Lord that we will be looking into that. He also asked about compensation in the case of staff possibly downgraded by reorganisation. We hope that will occur only in very exceptional circumstances. We mean to see that existing skills are used to the full, and any proposals on this matter will be worked out in full and detailed discussion with the staff themselves.
The noble Lord also asked about the amalgamation of hospital groups. My right honourable friend has discussed this matter with the staff side and has made it clear that he would sanction mergers of hospital groups after April 1 next only in exceptional cases where patients would otherwise suffer. Save in such cases, and in one other case in the Liverpool region where a merger now being planned cannot be implemented until after April, 1972, no mergers will be effected after that date. The noble Lord also asked about whether appointments to posts in the Service will be filled from within the present Service. It is important to ensure that the size and significance of the problem is not exaggerated, if indeed this proves to be a problem. We should certainly expect that the vast majority of posts will be filled from the existing staff in the different parts of the National Health Service, and of course those local government staff who are affected. This is in the context of a new Service which will be assuming additional and heavier responsibility, but until the whole structure of the Service has been more closely defined as a result of current studies it is not possible to be specific about the nature of top posts, or indeed about new or additional highly specialised posts which may be required. All these matters will be discussed at the appropriate time with the proposed staff commission.
My Lords, I am falling a little behind time with a mass of points still to answer. I hope some of your Lordships will forgive me if I write to you. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Hayter, will allow me to write to him about the research and development point he made. I hope I need not go back to the Whitley Council' debate we had recently, although I was

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invited to do so by the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy and my noble friend Lord Reigate. I cannot say any more about that at the moment.
I was fascinated and interested by the speech made by the noble Baroness, Lady Serota, who knows so very much about this problem—probably a good deal more than I do. She has worked at it a good deal longer than I have. I should like to make one or two points about her interesting speech. First of all, she asked me about the Working Parties and whether their reports will be published. They will not be making reports in that sense. They are Working Parties, and they come up with recommendations as soon as they reach them. There will not be written reports, but their recommendations will certainly be made known.
The noble Baroness, and many other speakers, have made the point that we are over-emphasising management and not caring for the patient. I think her words were that this should be a Service for the patient and not for the administrators. This is entirely in accordance with our thoughts, but I believe that this is what good management means. The management that we arc after is the optimum use of resources, and it seems to me that optimum, in this sense, means bringing the best service possible to those who need it; that is to say, the patients, and indeed—to go even further than that, to follow up a point that the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Grasmere, made in his excellent speech—the healthy. It is just as important to prevent the healthy from falling ill as it is to treat them once they are ill. It is in this context that we see good management of resources.
I was challenged by one noble Lord to give a definition of what I meant by "management abilities". I have not had time to think of one of my own, but perhaps I could quote what my right honourable friend said on July 1 in another place:
"These tasks will call for high qualities of leadership, persuasion, energy and drive, so that the professional people responsible for providing services are encouraged and enabled to realise the authorities' objectives. These are the essential qualities of management, and without them—without leadership, persuasion, energy and drive, all geared to professional advice—we shall again have in the future, as we have now, very uneven services to the
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public."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 1/7/71; 605.]
I see no reason whatever why a housewife should not provide "leadership, persuasion, energy and drive". The noble Baroness asked me, too, about the question of a Health Commissioner. We are still discussing this matter. We are in close touch with the professions over it, and I am afraid I cannot say anything further this evening. We also, as she does, highly value the contribution that is made by the hospital advisory service, and I hope that we shall go on receiving useful assistance from it.
The noble Lord, Lord Amulree, mentioned chronic and long-term illness. He, as I am, will be happy at the extra money that is going into those services. The contribution that can be made by small hospitals, about which I very much agree with him, is a subject in which we are interested and one which we are considering very carefully. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Lichfield also mentioned the matter of staff, about which I hope I have given some assurance in answering the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy. I assure him that the health centre programme is going ahead strongly. I think he felt that it was falling back a bit, but in fact it is going ahead well, and we are giving loan sanction in every case where we are asked for it. I also agree with him that the community health councils must indeed be a reality, and say how very much I welcomed his point about the part that the Churches can well play in these community health councils.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Ilton, for her contribution. I should like to emphasise to her, as I did in an interruption of the noble Lord, Lord Wright of Ashton under Lyne, that there is no question of these boundaries interfering with patients. They can cross boundaries just as they do now. After all, there are 14 regions now, and maybe 14 or 15 regions to come. But it is quite clear that the regional boundaries are administrative boundaries, and so are the area health authority boundaries; and patients will go to the hospital where they can get the best treatment that there is. In fact we hope that there will be better cooperation in a reorganised National Health Service, and that is what the good

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management that we want is there to provide.
Another point that I have not answered so far is one raised by my noble friend Lady Brooke, on the future of the public Health Service. I quite agree with her how important it is to keep up the morale of those serving in the local authority health services in this interim period. In fact, we are doing our best. My right honourable friend and I are going around attending regional conferences of local authorities for this purpose, to try to explain to them what is in our mind in these reorganisations, and to assure them that we are just as keen to incorporate the preventive health services in the new set-up as no doubt they are. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, apologised for having to leave early, and I think it would be best if I answered in writing his two points. May I also thank the noble Viscount, Lord Davidson, for bringing up, very rightly, the question of those who suffer from mental handicap. He himself does a splendid job as chairman of one of our mental handicap groups, and I can assure him that we are not neglecting the need to train people for the new sort of residential homes that we want to find for the mentally handicapped. This is very much in hand, and we have plans for training courses for them.
The noble Lord, Lord Morris of Grasmere, referred to health visitors. This again is another very important aspect of the Service. We hope that the integration within the area health authority will help this sort of co-operation further; and, like him, we very much welcome their attachment to general practice or to health centres. The noble Baroness, Lady Young, mentioned, among other matters, the school health service. This is a matter that we are discussing in the Working Party with the local authorities, and, as I have said, there is a special subcommittee discussing the future of the school health service. The noble Baroness, and also, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Champion, asked about the community health councils and the districts with which they correspond. That
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they will correspond with the health district is our idea. The area health authority will contain one or more district general hospital. Around each district general hospital there will be a district health administration. It would seem right to us, although we are still open to discussion on this matter, that the community health council should work to the area health management, because they will have to consider the integration of the services—not only the hospital service, but also all the other services within the district.
I thought the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, was a little too gloomy about the future of the district general hospital. Certainly in our view it will form the centre for the development of the district services. As I have just been saying, it will be the lowest integrated health care provision tier, and there will be district management within the area. I very much hope that the Cogwheel organisation will never suffer, because we believe it to be a very valuable contribution to the administration of the National Health Service.
My Lords, I think I have answered all the questions that I can honestly answer, except for one that the noble Lord, Lord Champion, put to me, about an advisory Welsh Health Council. Our proposal was in response to suggestions made, following the Welsh Green Paper that there should be some national body in Wales, independent of the Welsh Office and the area health authorities, to act in the role of public watchdog. The proposal has had a mixed reception and some—not only the noble Lord, but also his noble friend Lady White—have questioned the need for this Welsh Health Council, and have suggested that the work could be effectively carried out by the existing Welsh Council. We have taken careful note of what has been said to us on this subject, and will take it into account before we come to any final decisions on the matter. I apologise to all those of your Lordships whose questions I have not answered, but I will communicate with you as soon as I can.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

  E.E.C.: NATIONAL HOLIDAYS IN MEMBER STATES
  E.E.C.: NATIONAL HOLIDAYS IN MEMBER STATES