Sitting of 22 November 1971

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PETITION

  Mental Health
  Mr. Mayhew: I present to the House the humble petition of Sir Arthur Bliss, Honor Blackman, Spike Milligan, Theo Crosby, Elspet Gray, Dickie Henderson, David Jacobs, Doris Lessing, David Mercer, Penelope Mortimer, Naomi Mitchison, Valerie Profumo, Brian Rix and Dame Margaret Rutherford, who have faced the problems of mental sickness or mental handicap either in their own lives or in their families and who are some of the more than 50,000 signatories to the petition.
  The petition sheweth
  That widespread and acute suffering is caused in our society by mental sickness and handicap and that much can be done to alleviate this suffering and lighten the burden on patients, their families and friends.
  Wherefore your petitioners pray that greater respect and generosity be shown to those who are mentally disordered: and that the House of Commons, Her Majesty's Government, local government authorities, and all other responsible bodies in the field of mental health may give the utmost support to the objectives of the M.I.N.D. Campaign, and in particular to

  (i) The improvement of conditions in mental hospitals;

  (ii) The provision of increased support in the home and in the community for the mentally sick and handicapped and their families; and

  (iii) Increased research into mental illness and mental handicap.

  And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.
  To lie upon the Table.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

    India and Pakistan
    Mr. Douglas-Mannasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what further initiatives are contemplated by Her Majesty's Government in connection with the situation in Bengal.
    Mr. Laneasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a further statement on developments in Pakistan since his announcement of additional British aid on 18th October.
    The Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Joseph Godber): As my right hon. Friend told the House on 4th November, the urgent need is to make progress towards a political settlement in Pakistan. We have been in frequent touch with the Pakistan authorities and we discussed the whole situation with Mrs. Gandhi when she was here. We are also in regular consultation with other missions at the United Nations—[Vol. 825, c. 352.]
    Mr. Douglas-Mann: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that virtually the only chance of avoiding war on the subcontinent is if conditions are created under which the refugees in India can return home to East Bengal and that they will return only if the West Pakistan Army is withdrawn from East Bengal? Therefore, will the right hon. Gentleman take whatever steps are open to him to exert pressure on the West Pakistan Government to seek to ensure the withdrawal of the West Pakistan forces as rapidly as possible?
    Mr. Godber: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the most important thing is to create conditions in which the refugees can and will return. That is the basic problem; but I do not necessarily accept that that is the only prerequisite. We are considering every possible means of making progress, but I am sorry to say that so far we have not been able to achieve anything.
    Mr. Lane: In this tense situation, will my right hon. Friend keep in mind the posible usefulness of some further Commonwealth initiative, perhaps through a visit by Mr. Arnold Smith?
    Mr. Godber: We keep that very much in mind. We have not been able to make progress so far, but my hon. Friend will be aware that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development is at present in India and is discussing this as well as many other aspects with the Indian Government.
    Mrs. Hart: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how the British Government propose to vote this afternoon on the Netherlands and New Zealand resolution in the Third Committee which, I believe, includes a clause on the need for a political settlement within East Pakistan as well as clauses dealing with humanitarian aspects?
    Mr. Godber: The right hon. Lady has expressed particular interest in this Third Committee matter before and I have considered it very carefully. Not only that resolution but another draft resolution is being discussed. We do not know which resolution will be put, but I am in very close touch with our delegation at the United Nations. However, if we can see any way of utilising the resolution with the object of moving forward, we shall certainly utilise it.
    Mr. Barnesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reply he has received from the Secretary-General of the United Nations to his request that an on-the-spot team should investigate the latest position regarding the flow of refugees from Pakistan to India.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Anthony Kershaw): The Secretary-General has told us that he doubts whether such an investigation would be practicable at the present time. I should like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the work of U Thant who is doing everything he can to help to avert developments that might lead to disaster.
    Mr. Barnes: In view of the fact that a lot of the talk about a political settlement in East Bengal is rather vague at the present time, not least by the Commonwealth Secretary himself, would not
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    the Under-Secretary of State agree that it would be very useful if an on-the-spot team from the United Nations could establish, at least as far as the refugees in India are concerned, what are the circumstances which would have to exist in East Pakistan to attract them back in any numbers?
    Mr. Kershaw: It is not for us or for my right hon. Friend to dictate to the Government of Pakistan what the elements of a political settlement might be. As to the United Nations observers in India, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that India takes the view that this is not a quarrel of her making and that, therefore, it is inappropriate for United Nations observers to be on her territory.
    Mr. Wilkinson: Will my hon. Friend assure me that representations were made on this matter to the Prime Minister of India? Where such widespread suffering occurs it is imperative that the United Nations Agencies should get a realistic assessment on the spot of what international assistance is required, and so long as India prevents the United Nations teams going to border areas this is rendered extremely difficult.
    Mr. Kershaw: The whole position was exhaustively discussed with the Indian Prime Minister when she was here. I must repeat that the political solution is primarily a matter for Pakistan, and perhaps India, and cannot be imposed by this country.

    St. Helena
    Mr. Woodnuttasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what report he has received of the circumstances in which a hostile demonstration took place in St. Helena, South Atlantic, when the Chief Justice left the island on 24th July, 1971; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Kershaw: The then acting Governor reported that when Judge and Mrs. Windham were about to leave on 24th July there was a hostile demonstration by a group of 15–20 persons. My right hon. Friend has expressed his concern and regret to Judge Windham.
    Mr. Woodnutt: Is my hon. Friend aware that this demonstration was organised by the same subversive elements who sent the petition to the hon.

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    Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Carter) making alarming allegations which have since been proved to be absolutely false?
    Mr. Kershaw: As the people who signed the allegations to the hon. Member for Northfield did not reveal their names, I am unable to say whether my hon. Friend is right.

    European Economic Community
    Mr. W. H. K. Bakerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement, consequent upon the recent latest round of negotiations with the European Economic Community, with particular regard to the fishing industry.
    The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon): I have nothing to add to my statement on 11th November.—[Vol. 825, c. 1237–40.]
    Mr. Baker: Would my right hon. and learned Friend give the House an assurance that after the negotiations are concluded the comparable catching power of the British inshore fleet will be in no way lessened? Further, would my right hon. and learned Friend not agree that the ideal solution at the moment would seem to be the retention of the status quo?
    Mr. Rippon: Certainly we have suggested that the status quo might be one solution, but the other parties to the negotiations are not so keen on that at the moment because they would like at any rate to retain the marketing regulation, and the marketing regulation is being considered and various proposals are being put forward which look as though they might be beneficial to everybody. So far as the general situation is concerned, I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that we will not agree to any arrangements which do not satisfactorily protect our legitimate interests.
    Mr. James Johnson: If there is no agreement on the 29th of this month when the Chancellor meets his opposite numbers and if, as I understand, the deadline is to be 14th December, can the right hon. and learned Gentleman give the House an assurance or undertaking that he will not sign the fisheries agreement even after the Accession Treaty is signed, sealed and delivered?
    Mr. Rippon: We have made it clear that we cannot sign the Treaty of Accession on the basis of the present fisheries policy. Certainly, therefore, there will have to be a satisfactory settlement of this issue before signature.
    Mr. Marten: Can we get it absolutely straight? Does my right hon. and learned Friend stand by his statement at the Conservative Party conference that we would not sign the Treaty of Accession if we did not get arrangements which satisfactorily protected our legitimate interests? That is what the House wants to know.
    Mr. Rippon: I stand by what I said at the Conservative Party conference but not necessarily any paraphrase of it.
    Mr. Healey: The House will be relieved to hear that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has confirmed the pledge which he refused to confirm when we discussed the matter a fortnight ago in this House, but may I ask him a question about the Norwegian negotiations? He will be aware that the Norwegian Government will be unable to join the Treaty of Rome unless its requirements on the fisheries matter are met. If Norway does not join, Denmark will not join either and this would completely change the balance on which the right hon. and learned Gentleman recommended the agreement to this House. Can he assure the House that he will insist on Norway getting a satisfactory settlement of fisheries matters?
    Mr. Rippon: There is no discrepancy in any way in what I have told the House on this matter. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman about that. I think he misunderstood the position on the last occasion. I cannot negotiate on behalf of Norway and it would be very remiss of me to give undertakings on behalf of the Norwegian Government and people.
    Mr. Ewingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he proposes to have a meeting with the Common Market Commissioner for regional policy, following his visit to Scotland.
    Mr. Rippon: I anticipate increasingly frequent and close contacts with the European Economic Community Commissioner for regional policy and his staff.
    Mr. Ewing: As the visit was by its nature a fact-finding mission, and in view of the widespread concern throughout Scotland and other regions that the regional policies of the Common Market Commission will be completely inadequate to solve the problems from which we are suffering, particularly in Scotland, does not the Minister agree that an immediate meeting and a statement to the House would be in order?
    Mr. Rippon: Certainly the visit was a fact-finding visit in the sense that no decisions resulted from it. There is no question of the Community at the moment taking decisions which affect our regional policy as a result of this visit. I was, however, glad to see that The Scotsman in its report on M. Borschette's visit on 5th November described his observations generally as reassuring.
    Mr. Maker: Is it not a fact that the regional economic development policies of the Six are in general very powerful and have been very effective? Will my right hon. and learned Friend consider giving more information to the House about the results which are being achieved in such areas a Brittany, South-West France and the South of Italy?
    Mr. Rippon: Yes, Sir, I think that would be very helpful. M. Borschette made a speech at a meeting of European journalists in Bristol of which a copy is in the Library of the House, and that contains a lot of useful information. Certainly the purpose of the Community is to stimulate regional policy and not in any way to discourage it.
    Mr. Redmondasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has received from people who object to the Treaty of Rome on religious grounds; and what replies he has sent.
    Mr. Rippon: Ministers have received only two such letters and in each case the reply confirmed that the European treaties are not concerned in any way with ecclesiastical matters.
    Mr. Redmond: I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that reply, but I assure him that I have been nothing like so fortunate since I have received hundreds of letters from people who have said "We cannot sign the Treaty of Rome because we are Protestants". Is
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    he aware that people seem to think that entry into Europe will destroy the British-type Sunday and give us a Continental Sunday? Would he say what is the attitude of the Church of Scotland to this matter?
    Mr. Rippon: The Church of Scotland has recently expressed favourable observations on the subject of our entry into the Community. A very influential body of that Assembly expressed support by a large majority. We have to explain to a few people that their ecclesiastical views, doctrines and practices will not in any way be affected by our entry into the Community.
    Mr. Russell Johnston: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman also bear in mind that the Dutch Reformed Church has on many occasions expressed the view that its freedom to pursue Protestantism is in no way diminished by the existence of the Roman Catholic Church?
    Mr. Rippon: That is true, and in an enlarged Community the Protestants may be in the majority.
    Mr. Dodds-Parkerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans he has for closer association in developments overseas between the Commonwealth Development Corporation and similar institutions of the European Economic Community.
    Mr. Kershaw: I understand that the Commonwealth Development Corporation has already invested in a number of projects in partnership with similar European institutions, and is at present discussing with other interested institutions the possibilities for further joint operations of this kind.
    Mr. Dodds-Parker: May I ask my hon. Friend to urge the new Chairman to take a particular interest in spreading the undoubtedly successful technical and managerial achievements of the Corporation over a wider area?
    Mr. Kershaw: I am obliged to my hon. Friend. France, Germany and the Netherlands have broadly similar institutions to the C.D.C., as does the European Organisation as a whole. The Corporation is already co-operating with them on four projects and hopes to do so on more.
    Mr. Martenasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on his proposals for signing the Treaty of Accession to the Treaty of Rome.
    Mr. Rippon: The sequence of events leading to full membership of the Communities was outlined by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in his statement to the House on 17th June.—[Vol. 819, c. 643–5.]
    Mr. Marten: Does my right hon. and learned Friend recall that in a Written Answer to me on Friday of last week, he said that we had to sign the Treaty of Accession to establish an agreed text on which our legislation could be based? Would it not be preferable to agree a text, get the Six to initial it and for us to debate the consequential legislation based thereon and sign afterwards? What is wrong with that?
    Mr. Rippon: I do not think that that is the appropriate procedure. Legislation is not required before the signing of the instrument of accession; but as I told my hon. Friend on 19th November:
    "Signature will be the means of establishing an agreed text on which our legislation can be based."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th November, 1971; Vol. 826, c. 230.]
    Mr. John Mendelson: Why did not the Government announce, before the vote was taken at 10 o'clock on 28th October, that they had abandoned their original plan of introducing a short Bill into the House of Commons before signing the Treaty of Accession? Why have they now abandoned the plan to have two Bills on the matter and why was the first intimation of this basic change, about which hon. Members knew nothing when they voted on 28th October, given on Friday morning in a deliberate leakage to the Press? Is not this double-dealing of the worst kind with the House of Commons?
    Mr. Rippon: That is an extraordinary observation for the hon. Gentleman to make. I think that hon. Members understood perfectly well, when we had the debate, that legislation would be necessary. The details of legislation are, by custom, never presented in advance.
    Sir D. Walker-Smith: Would my right hon. and learned Friend make it clear
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    that legal effect to adherence is not given until ratification, and that signing a treaty of accession does not of itself import that?
    Mr. Rippon: My right hon. and learned Friend is quite correct.

    Rhodesia
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement about his discussion with Mr. Ian Smith concerning the settlement of the Rhodesian dispute.
    Mr. Strangasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement on the negotiations with the illegal régime in Rhodesia.
    Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on his visit to Rhodesia.
    Mr. Godber: As the House is aware, my right hon. Friend is at present conducting negotiations in Rhodesia. He will, no doubt, wish to make a full statement to the House as early as possible after his return.
    Mr. Lyon: In the course of his speech on the Southern Rhodesian Sanctions Order, the right hon. Gentleman indicated quite clearly that the Foreign Secretary was not even proposing to negotiate about an external guarantee, and in the nature of things this inevitably means that we must rely solely upon the good faith of Mr. Smith. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we on this side of the House would regard that as a sell-out by any standards?
    Mr. Godber: I do not think I can comment on the discussions going on in Rhodesia at the present time. I do not think it would be useful for me to do so.
    Mr. Strang: Is the Minister in a position to deny a report in The Times on Saturday that a draft agreement in principle that is acceptable to the British Government and Rhodesian whites exists but is not acceptable to African opinion? Can he deny or confirm that report?
    Mr. Godber: There are so many reports appearing in the Press at the

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    present time that I certainly would not accept that report as correct in any way.
    Mr. Wall: Is my right hon. Friend aware that any failure of the present negotiations in Salisbury would inevitably mean that Rhodesia adopts the racial policies of South Africa?
    Mr. Godber: There are great dangers in all of this and, as I have said, I prefer not to comment further now.
    Mr. Healey: While I understand the unwillingness of the right hon. Gentleman to discuss the negotiations as such, may I ask him whether he is aware that many of us on this side of the House are deeply disturbed that the Foreign Secretary did not agree to see Chief Tangwena yesterday but preferred instead to see three African business men? Can the right hon. Gentleman explain to the House why the Foreign Secretary took the decision not to meet Chief Tangwena, whose fight for the protection of his tribe has aroused the admiration, I think, of all who know about it and who deserved more courtesy than he received?
    Mr. Godber: Of course, that also will have been based on Press reports. I have no official information to confirm what the right hon. Gentleman has said. There are so many conflicting Press reports that I really could not accept any of them at the moment without corroboration.
    Mr. Guy Barnettasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many visits on behalf of Her Majesty's Government Lord Goodman has now undertaken to the illegal régime of Rhodesia; what was the cost of each visit to the Exchequer; and whether further visits of this kind are contemplated.
    Mr. Godber: The total payments made in respect of the four visits to Rhodesia by Lord Goodman and the accompanying officials was approximately £9,500. A more detailed analysis of cost would take more time than is justified. Any further visits would obviously depend on my right hon. Friend's report on his present negotiations with Mr. Smith.
    Mr. Barnett: While I appreciate the reluctance of the right hon. Gentleman
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    to comment on the present negotiations, will he say to what degree those negotiations were begun on the basis of any knowledge of African opinion gained by Lord Goodman? Secondly, will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the Government will observe the fifth principle, that there must be no settlement without the agreement of Rhodesian opinion as a whole, and will he say how the Government propose to see that this agreement is obtained before a settlement is made?
    Mr. Godber: In reply to the first point, Lord Goodman's mission was primarily to have discussions with the Rhodesian Government. On the second point, I said in the House on 4th November a good deal about the fifth principle and how it would be implemented. I do not think I can usefully add to that today, because the details are subject to the negotiations which are at present taking place.
    Mr. Tapsell: Will my right hon. Friend convey to the Foreign Secretary while he is still in Salisbury the hope of many hon. Members on this side of the House that it will be possible for him while he is in Rhodesia to see the Rev. Sithole? Sithole?
    Mr. Godber: I will certainly convey to my right hon. Friend what my hon. Friend said. My right hon. Friend has already received a memorandum from the Rev. Sithole and he has seen many other leaders, including Mr. Nkomo.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with the United States Government regarding the proposed resumption by the United States of chrome ore imports from Rhodesia.
    Mr. Godber: None, Sir.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: If this House is not to be invited in the fairly near future to follow the sensible example of the United States Congress in this matter, may we take it that, whereas the trade statistics to date show that we have imported Rhodesian chrome via South Africa, we shall in future be assisting the United States balance of payments by importing Rhodesian chrome via the United States?
    Mr. Godber: I have no evidence on the point raised by my hon. Friend as to the source of British chrome. I cannot comment about a particular United States decision, certainly not at this moment.
    Mr. Orme: Is the Minister aware that many hon. Members find that answer extraordinary? When sanctions were imposed, the Government consulted other leading Governments, including the United States. Many hon. Members feel that the United States has abrogated an agreement with the United Nations and that Her Majesty's Government should protest about this to President Nixon.
    Mr. Godber: I am not prepared to go further on this matter at present. This proposal by the Americans has not yet come into force and I do not know the form in which it will be implemented.
    Mr. Healey: Is it not the case that the authority signed by the President is permissive, not mandatory? Therefore, some intervention by the British Government at this stage might have an important influence on the decision of the Administration. Have not Her Majesty's Government a clear obligation in this matter as a member of the Commonwealth Sanctions Committee and, indeed, as a member of the United Nations Sanctions Committee, which was equally unanimous as this House when it renewed British sanctions a week or so ago?
    Mr. Godber: The position of the renewal of British sanctions is well known, and it is true that Her Majesty's Government are in frequent touch with the American Government on many issues. However, I am not prepared to make any public statement today.

    South African Embassy
    Mr. Pardoeasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he is satisfied that all South African nationals currently attached to the South African Embassy in London are employed on the legitimate business of diplomats; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Godber: We are not aware of any illegal activities in the United Kingdom by any South African officials.
    Mr. Pardoe: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of serious allegations which
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    appeared in several newspapers, notably The Observer, concerning the activities of these so-called diplomats and that so many of these people are no more than agents of the South African Government security services, representatives of B.O.S.S., in Britain? Is the right hon. Gentleman's political philosophy such that he welcomes South African spies while rightly outlawing Russian spies?
    Mr. Godber: No, that is not the position and I am sure that the hon. Member knows it is not. There is no evidence whatsoever of these things, but if the hon. Member gives concrete evidence I will follow it up at once.
    Mr. Healey: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there was not evidence at the trial of the Dean of Johannesburg a few weeks ago when it was stated by Government witnesses that one of its agents in London had been collecting evidence against the dean? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether he has made any protest against this intolerable invasion of the rights of private citizens in Britain?
    Mr. Godber: We have no evidence in regard to this. As my right hon. Friend made quite clear to the House in the debate, we have made strong representations in regard to the dean. On the specific point, however, we have no information whatsoever confirming what the right hon. Gentleman has said.

    Nationalist China
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on Her Majesty's Government's vote at the United Nations to unseat Nationalist China.
    Mr. Godber: I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement I made on this mater in the debate in the House on 4th November.—[Vol. 825, c. 480–1.]
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: While the seating of Peking has long been British policy, is not this a matter in which it might have been more appropriate for the Government to stand by the United States Government? Will the Government endeavour to assure the position of Taiwan, with whom we have valuable trade and friendly dealings?
    Mr. Godber: My hon. Friend is perhaps under some misunderstanding. One could not seat Peking without the resultant effect that Taiwan would be excluded, simply because both Governments insisted on calling themselves the Government of China, and only one could represent China. Therefore, the Government's position on this matter has been consistent throughout the last 10 years.

    European Free Trade Association
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on future industrial free trade with non-applicant members of the European Free Trade Association; and what tariffs will apply in agricultural and forest products.
    Mr. Rippon: I have nothing to add to the fourth paragraph of the communiqué following the Ministerial meetings of the European Free Trade Association Councils in Geneva on 4th and 5th November which was circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT for 11th November.—[Vol. 825, c. 1247–8.]
    Mr. Wingfield Digby: I realise that bilateral negotiations are proceeding, but will my right hon. and learned Friend urge the Six to stick to their principle that international tariffs should not be re-erected?
    Mr. Rippon: That is certainly the aim of all of us.
    Mr. Milne: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that this affects the applicant E.F.T.A. countries as well? As the applicant countries are to consult their people on the question and the conditions of entry, will he make arrangements for Britain to do the same?
    Mr. Rippon: We are consulting our constituents in our usual way and making our decisions through our usual parliamentary institutions.

    South Africa (Dean of Johannesburg)
    Miss Lestorasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations Her Majesty's Government have made to the South African Government regarding the
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    trial and sentence of the Dean of Johannesburg; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Peter Archerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has made to the Government of the Republic of South Africa on the imprisonment of the Dean of Johannesburg.
    Mr. Leadbitterasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has made to the South African Government arising from the sentence of five years imprisonment passed on the Dean of Johannesburg: and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Godber: I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend told the House on 4th November in the debate.—[Vol. 825, c. 354–5.]
    Miss Lestor: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that what has happened to the Dean of Johannesburg because of his opposition to apartheid should be condemned by everybody in the civilised international community? Will he take this opportunity publicly to denounce the trial and sentence of the dean and also publicly to denounce apartheid?
    Mr. Godber: My right hon. Friend made abundantly clear his attitude and that of Her Majesty's Government in the debate on 4th November, when he said:
    "Of course we detest the laws under which this kind of thing happens".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th November, 1971; Vol. 825, c. 472.]
    He went on to refer to the possibility of an appeal by the dean and said that this was why he did not wish to say more.
    Mr. Archer: Does not the Minister of State agree that this is an example which is wholly consistent with the philosophy of the South African Government and that the force of any protest we may make will be diminished if we are consistently seen to be voting on the same side as South Africa in the United Nations?
    Mr. Godber: I cannot accept that at all. We judge each case in the United Nations and elsewhere on its merits. We have made quite clear many times our detestation of apartheid, and my right hon. Friend did so again in that debate.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Might it not save a lot of trouble if South African Christians provided their own clergy instead of continuing, many years after South African independence, this ecclesiastical colonialism?
    Mr. Godber: I should not like to comment on that.
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: In answer to an earlier question on this subject, the Minister of State said that the Government had no information about the rôle of South African spies in the dean's trial. Surely there was plenty of evidence in the Press reports. Could not the right hon. Gentleman obtain a transcript of the trial so that he can see how intolerable it is that in Britain South Africans should be spying on British subjects to obtain evidence in relation to crimes against these wretched laws in South Africa?
    Mr. Godber: Yes, I will certainly look into the matter the hon. Gentleman has raised. As I have said, we cannot take our evidence entirely from Press reports on this or any other matter.

    U.S.S.R. (Treatment of Jews)
    Mr. Arthur Lewisasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what action he has taken, or intends taking, to draw to the attention of the Soviet Government the attitude of Her Majesty's Government and the British people towards the treatment of Jews in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Godber: We have already made clear our views on this matter on a number of occasions.
    Mr. Lewis: Will the Minister try to be a little more outspoken and express to the Soviet Government the view of every decent-minded person in this country that anybody should be allowed to live wherever he wants to and to go where he wishes, subject always to the country concerned allowing him entry? Surely it is wrong that the British Government are not protesting much more vigorously on this matter than they have done.
    Mr. Godber: I do not know whether the hon. Member is aware of how much protest we have made on this matter. This
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    question has been raised by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and by the Permanent Under-Secretary at the Foreign Office when he was in Moscow. It was also raised, at my specific request, at the Human Rights Commission meeting in Geneva earlier this year. We have made many representations, and it is not right to say that we have not.
    Mr. Fidler: Would the Minister consider whether, if this is a crime against rights guaranteed under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as well as under the Soviet Constitution, it should be pressed more strongly with the Soviet authorities that ethnic, cultural and religious freedom should be granted to the Jewish community in the Soviet Union and that there should be no interference with affidavits coming through from Israel to persons in the Soviet Union who require them to obtain emigrant visas? Should not individual cases be taken up generally, bearing in mind that condemnation of crimes against humanity is not reserved to the citizens of one's own country?
    Mr. Godber: I am sure my hon. Friend will appreciate that we have no strict status on the question of taking up individual cases. We can protest on the generality of the issue, but since these are Soviet citizens we have no position from which to take up individual cases.

    German Democratic Republic
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what initiative he is prepared to take towards the admission of the German Democratic Republic to the United Nations.
    Mr. Godber: Neither the German Democratic Republic nor the Federal German Republic are at present members of the United Nations. It would not, in present circumstances, be appropriate for Her Majesty's Government to take the initiative on this matter.
    Mrs. Short: I regard that as a silly answer. Could the right hon. Gentleman say why not? Since the United States has now welcomed the entry of the People's Republic of China into the United Nations, does he not agree that the United Nations would be immeasurably strengthened if all the countries that

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    want to enter are allowed to take part in its affairs?
    Mr. Godber: It is all very well to say that it is a silly answer. I suggest that at this particular moment of time it is a silly Question, because discussions are now taking place between the two Germanys. If a satisfactory conclusion can be reached in that way, it is much better than that we should take an initiative.

    Nuclear Weapons
    Mr. Hugh Jenkinsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what request he has made to the United States Government to share nuclear secrets with France as a precondition of talks between the Common Market countries, the United Kingdom, and the United States of America on economic and monetary matters.
    Mr. Moyleasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what approaches he has received from the United States Government suggesting talks between the United States of America and the United Kingdom and other Governments on the wider sharing of United States of America secret information on nuclear weapons.
    Mr. Rippon: None, Sir.
    Mr. Jenkins: In that case, what is the point of the Prime Minister talking about nuclear sharing with France? If the Government propose to break the nonproliferation agreement, should not they give notice of their intention so that the House can attempt to dissuade them from so disastrous a course?
    Mr. Rippon: That is a hypothetical question about something that has never happened.
    Mr. Moyle: Would not the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that there have been some approaches on these matters, and is it not difficult to separate civil from military information? Will he tell the House as soon as any exchange of military nuclear information is likely to take place?
    Mr. Rippon: The answer is perfectly clear when I say "None, Sir". As I have made clear frequently in the House, neither nuclear defence nor defence in
    944
    general formed any part of our negotiations with the Community, nor were there any representations in that regard.
    Mr. Marten: In view of the nonproliferation treaty, surely a United Europe will never become a nuclear Power and certainly will never become a strong third world Power.
    Mr. Rippon: My hon. Friend from time to time uses the word "never" in this and in other connections. Experience shows that it is an unwise word to use.
    Mr. Healey: Has not the French Defence Minister, as recently as a fortnight ago, reiterated his belief that any form of military nuclear sharing is impossible for France? In that case, are not the ideas to which the Prime Minister clings so tenaciously a dead duck?
    Mr. Rippon: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has made his views clear in this House on a number of occasions. None of these points arises out of this Question.
    Mr. Jenkins: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I wish to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

    Gibraltar (Prince of Wales's Visit)
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reply he gave to the representations made on behalf of the Spanish Government about the visit of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales to Gibraltar.
    Mr. Godber: Her Majesty's Embassy at Madrid has made it clear to the Spanish Government that His Royal Highness' movements as a serving officer of the Royal Navy are subject to normal operational requirements and are purely a matter for Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Apart from the naval requirements, did my right hon. Friend and the embassy make it crystal clear to the Spanish authorities that the visit by the heir to the Throne to Her Majesty's loyal Colony of Gibraltar is the business of no foreign Government?
    Mr. Godber: Yes, Sir.

    Seychells
    Mr. Matherasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress has been made with a study on a new form of constitution for the Seychelles.
    Mr. Kershaw: The present constitution has been in force only since October 1970. We have received no representations from the Seychelles Government nor any evidence that a clear majority of the people are in favour of a further change.
    Mr. Mather: Is my hon. Friend aware that this is very much a political issue in the Seychelles in regard to the future of those islands? Is he also aware that as far as can be ascertained, a large majority of people in the Seychelles are in favour of closer ties with Britain? Will he give further consideration to this whole constitutional aspect?
    Mr. Kershaw: Since the Constitution has been in force for only a year, we ought to give it a chance to see whether it answers the purpose for which it was set up. As for closer constitutional ties with this country, I realise that the Seychelles Democratic Party advocates such ties. We would welcome close ties, but the question is complicated. There are 5 million people in the dependent territories, all of whom have to be considered.

    India and Pakistan
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Pardoe.
    Mr. Pardoe: Question No. 30.
    Mr. Wilkinson: On a point of order. Is it in order, on the Order Paper of the House, to refer to Bangla Desh as part of the territory of a Commonwealth country which we recognise? We do not recognise Bangla Desh, nor does India, and nor does the United Nations.
    Mr. Speaker: It is not a question of order. An hon. Member must take responsibility for his Question.
    Mr. Pardoeasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement about British aid to the 9 million refugees from Bangla Desh now in India.
    Mr. Raphael Tuckasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what further plans Her Majesty's Government have for aid for Bengal.
    Mr. Kershaw: We have already offered £14¾ million for the relief of the refugees in India and £2 million for relief in East Pakistan. We are the second largest donor to the refugees and, while we shall have to reconsider our own position as the situation develops, we hope that other Governments will make further substantial contributions.
    Mr. Pardoe: While thanking the hon. Gentleman for that statement and while accepting that Her Majesty's Government have a very good record on aid to Bangla Desh refugees, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that the mere presence of these refugees in India is the biggest and most likely cause of war facing the world today? Is the hon. Gentleman aware, further, that the only way of getting the refugees back is the recognition of an independent Bangla Desh? Therefore, since this is now inevitable, does not the hon. Gentleman believe that from the point of view both of morality and Britain's self-interest, it is urgent that we recognise an independent Bangla Desh?
    Mr. Kershaw: I agree that a political solution is the way in which those involved can be rescued from their present position. However, I do not believe that our recognising Bangla Desh now would contribute to a peaceful solution.
    Mr. Tuck: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are reports that the Pakistan Government is not allowing United Nations representatives to travel freely in Dacca, that supplies are being used not only for the purposes of relief and that the army is using United Nations and U.N.I.C.E.F. trucks? Are these reports true? If the hon. Gentleman cannot assure the House that this is not the position, will he investigate thoroughly?
    Mr. Kershaw: There is a representative of the United Nations in Dacca and the High Commissioner for Refugees also has his representative in East Pakistan. As to how the £2 million is spent, we have an account from the United Nations. As far as we know, none of it is going astray.
    Mr. McCrindle: Is my hon. Friend aware that a recent move—what might almost be described as an olive branch—from President Yahya Khan has been described by the Indian authorities as propaganda? Can my hon. Friend say whether that is the view of Her Majesty's Government?
    Mr. Kershaw: No, Sir. I cannot usefully comment on a statement such as that.
    Mrs. Hart: Can the hon. Gentleman confirm the figures given to the Third Committee last week by Prince Sadruddin Khan that of a total of £290 million already required by India to support the refugees in India, only £103 million had been contributed so far? Will the hon. Gentleman permit my right hon. and hon. Friends and I to endorse what he says about the need for other countries to make larger contributions, as well as bearing in mind the future need for us to continue our contributions?
    Mr. Kershaw: I am grateful for the right hon. Lady's observations. I understand that Sadruddin Khan estimated that of the cost of £280 million which had now fallen upon the Indian Government, contributions of £90 million had been made, of which our share was 17 per cent., and that up to 18th October £36 million had been contributed to East Pakistan.
    Mr. Wilkinsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make further relief aid for Pakistani refugees in India conditional upon India's acceptance of United Nations observers within the refugee camps and strict accountability for the disposal of relief aid provided.
    Mr. Kershaw: Her Majesty's Government regard the plight of the refugees as a humanitarian problem and have not attached political conditions to their relief assistance. The major part of the assistance is being spent on direct purchases by the British Government or has been channelled through the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, but £1 million has been paid to the Government of India for expenditure on agreed purposes and will be accounted for in detail.
    Mr. Wilkinson: Does my hon. Friend agree that a humanitarian problem of
    948
    such proportions demands the full assistance of the Indian Government with the United Nations and the relief agencies? Will my hon. Friend press upon the Indian Government at least that it should accept United Nations observers at the refugee camps to ensure that the administration of aid is looked after properly since, if that is not done, there is a great danger that the problem may be exacerbated by the Indian authorities?
    Mr. Kershaw: I repeat that the acceptance of United Nations observers within the borders of India must be a matter for the Indian Government. It is not one for us. Incidentally, perhaps I might take this opportunity to pay tribute to the Indian Government for their remarkable achievements in administering the aid.
    Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
    Mr. Wilkinsonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will renew British commodity aid to Pakistan.
    Mr. Kershaw: British commodity aid for Pakistan is continuing under existing loan agreements. We cannot provide new development aid until conditions are restored in which it can be effectively deployed for development. However, we are providing £2 million for humanitarian aid in East Pakistan through the United Nations.
    Mr. Wilkinson: Does my hon. Friend realise how much that contribution of £2 million is welcomed, as is the £14¾ million which has gone to relief in India? Will my hon. Friend bear in mind none the less that there are vital projects in the future in West as well as in East Pakistan which require international aid and which must not be overlooked in the present crisis?
    Mr. Kershaw: I assure my hon. Friend that we stand ready to resume our project aid to Pakistan just as soon as conditions there warrant our doing so and getting value for money.
    Mr. Shore: In view of the fact that the suspension of economic aid under the Consortium obviously is an important factor which may help to influence the Pakistan Government in the direction of reaching a political solution in East Bengal, can the hon. Gentleman assure

    949
    us that the pressure which will be felt through the suspension of economic aid will not be countered by easing the position of Pakistan through postponing debt repayment? Will the hon. Gentleman make this point quite clear?
    Mr. Kershaw: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, there has been a unilateral decision by Pakistan about the debts and the moratorium. We have had to acquiesce in that position and it now continues until 31st January. During the first six months of the moratorium the Pakistan Government defaulted on a total of £21¾ million, of which about £2 million was due to Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Jessel: Will my hon. Friend assure us that he will not use the British taxpayer's money in such a way as to buttress the Pakistan Government's repressive régime in East Pakistan, when the vast majority of East Pakistan people do not want the Pakistan Army to stay there?
    Mr. Kershaw: The purpose of our aid in this regard is humanitarian only, not political.
    Mrs. Hart: Will the hon. Gentleman assure the House that the Government accept that economic pressure on Pakistan, from the point of view of development aid, is not possible in these circumstances but that, from other viewpoints, it is an absolutely vital element in securing the right amount of political settlement which could reduce the danger of war and get the refugees back to East Pakistan? Does the hon. Gentleman accept that general approach?
    Mr. Kershaw: It would be wrong for me to say that we will seek to use aid which was intended for a humanitarian purpose for political reasons. I must insist upon that point.
    Mr. Braine: To get the whole question into perspective, will my hon. Friend confirm that the cost to India of maintaining refugees from Pakistan is now running in excess of the total net aid which India receives from all sources? Does not this lay emphasis on the need for some kind of international approach to the whole problem and a more effective response to U Thant's appeal?
    Mr. Kershaw: The burden upon India at present is absolutely enormous and can hardly be matched by any degree of aid which can realistically be given in the near future.

    India and Pakistan
    Mr. Croninasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the progress of distribution of aid to refugees from East Pakistan in India and to those needing aid in East Pakistan.
    Mr. Kershaw: Of the £14¾ million offered for the relief of the refugees in India, £7¾ million has been spent or committed mainly on food, tents and tarpaulins, medical supplies and freight.
    Of the £2 million for humanitarian aid in East Pakistan, £500,000 has been spent on trucks for U.N.I.C.E.F., medical supplies for the World Health Organisation and the transport of rice from Japan; and further sums will be spent on shallow draught vessels for the distribution of relief supplies under the supervision of the United Nations. We are discussing with the U.N. how the remainder of our contributions can be spent most effectively.
    Mr. Cronin: I thank the hon. Gentleman for those helpful figures. Would it not be helpful to the refugees if more co-operation were obtainable from Pakistan itself? Would it be worth-while suggesting to President Yahya Khan that he should restore to East Bengal the former Governor, Vice-Admiral Ahsan, who has the complete confidence of the Bengalis and has always behaved with great humanity and good sense?
    Mr. Kershaw: The hon. Gentleman knows that we are in the closest touch with the Pakistan Government about these matters. As to whether we should make detailed suggestions like that, I could not say.
    Mr. George Cunninghamasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what is now the accumulated total of expected disbursements to India this year of aid towards the refugee problem in Bengal; what is his current estimate of disbursements of all levies of aid to India this year; and whether the need for refugee assistance

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    is reducing the development aid available to India.
    Mr. Kershaw: We expect that all the £14¾ million offered for the relief of the refugees in India will be disbursed this year and that disbursements of development aid—excluding food aid and technical assistance—will be substantially higher than last year's level of £41¾ million. In addition we expect to disburse about £800,000 of food aid and to maintain our technical assistance programme at its normal level. We have not reduced our development aid to India on account of the need for refugee aid.
    Mr. Cunningham: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on that situation which reflects the great need of India for development assistance apart from its need in relation to the refugees. Will he keep in mind that a number of aid donors separate the financing of their humanitarian assistance from development assistance in order that, when a catastrophe like that in East Bengal occurs, it does not result in an overall reduction in development assistance? Will he confirm that what he has just said, while meaning that India may get no less development assistance as a result of these happenings, means that all the other developing countries are bound to get less?
    Mr. Kershaw: The hon. Gentleman knows from his past experience that it is sometimes difficult to disburse the full amount of aid available in one year. So far we have managed to use the slack, so to speak, for this year for this humanitarian aid. However, I assure the hon. Gentleman that we will make sure that our contribution to India does not fall below what it was. In fact, we expect and hope to be able to provide over £50 million in aid to India this year.

    Zanzibar (Pensions)
    Mr. Allasonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he can now make a statement on the pensions of former employees of the Zanzibar Government.
    Mr. Kershaw: The authorities in Dar es Salaam and Zanzibar continue to disclaim responsibility for the payment of these pensions. Her Majesty's Govern-
    952
    ment do not accept this view but have now decided on humanitarian grounds to offer loan advances in lieu of pensions earned before independence to pensioners who can provide adequate evidence of their entitlement. Advances will be with effect from 1st December, 1971. Applications should be made direct to the Overseas Development Administration or through the British diplomatic mission in the applicant's country of residence. The estimated cost will be about £150,000 a year.
    Mr. Allason: Is my hon. Friend aware that this act of justice will be warmly welcomed by these unhappy people, who have been without their pensions since 1964 and who are described as follows in a letter which I have received:
    "Most of us are over 70 years of age and are marking time, before we meet our Creator, in utter destitution"?
    Mr. Kershaw: I am obliged to my hon. Friend for tabling this Question and giving me the opportunity to say what I have in this regard.
    Mr. Paget: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind also that the servants of this country who have come to England have had their property expropriated and seized? I have written to him on the subject telling him how a number of houses have been seized in this manner. Can they also be assisted?
    Mr. Kershaw: That is a different question. As the hon. and learned Gentleman knows, we have made representations about this, so far without satisfaction, I am afraid.
    Mr. Braine: As my hon. Friend will know, I raised this question first with the former Government, and I am delighted that at long last Her Majesty's Government have recognised the justice of the claims of these deserving people. As my hon. Friend has spoken of loans, are we to understand that repayment will be charged not against these people and their heirs but against the Government of Tanzania or Zanzibar?
    Mr. Kershaw: I described the payments as loans in the hope that at some time the Zanzibar Government will accept responsibility and pay the pensions retrospectively.

    Rhodesian African Students
    Mr. Hugh Jenkinsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what facilities are available for Rhodesian Africans who apply for aid to study in the United Kingdom; and to what extent such facilities are being provided.
    Mr. Kershaw: Her Majesty's Government help through the Special Commonwealth Programme. Our contribution offers awards to suitably qualified candidates under three schemes: the Commonwealth Scholarship and Fellowship Plan; the Commonwealth Teacher Training Bursary Scheme; and the Technical Assistance Training Programme. Since 1966 awards under these schemes have totalled 299, of which 133 are current.
    Mr. Jenkins: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Is he aware that some authorities—for example, the North-East Regional Hospital Board—are telling applicants that they have been in touch with the Secretary of State for Education in Salisbury, Rhodesia, and that there is no need for them to come to this country? Will he remind such authorities that the Smith régime is still illegal, that they ought not to be in communication with it and that the régime is likely to remain illegal?
    Mr. Kershaw: I have no information about the facts which the hon. Gentleman puts forward. I will communicate them to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.

    Prince Souvanna Phouma (Discussions)
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement about his official discussions on 18th October with Prince Souvanna Phouma.
    Mr. Kershaw: The discussions covered the situation in South-East Asia as a whole, and in Laos in particular. My right hon. Friend assured the Prince of Her Majesty's Government's continued support for himself and his Government in their courageous efforts to preserve their country's neutrality against Communist aggression.
    Mr. Allaun: In view of the discussions now taking place prior to President
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    Nixon's visit to Peking, may I ask whether, as the Pathet Lao says that it will talk with the Prince's Government if the bombing is stopped in Laos, the Government could make such a proposal to the President in Washington?
    Mr. Kershaw: It would be fine if the Pathet Lao would talk if the bombing stopped, but I think that the Pathet Lao had better get out of Laos first.
    Mr. Adley: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the responsibility which we have to stand by our friends in South-East Asia, particularly Thailand? Will he ensure that the Thais are left in no doubt that they have our continued support?
    Mr. Kershaw: The Thai Government are in no doubt about our support for them.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
Mr. Adley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I seek your guidance on a particular matter? When the Department of Trade and Industry took over, in one lump, the answering of Questions, particularly for aerospace, one was advised that one could not put down more than one Question on all the subjects covered by the Department of Trade and Industry, yet today overseas aid questions were taken separately and one finds that certain hon. Members have had the opportunity of asking two, and even three, Questions. Could there be some uniformity? May we have your guidance on that?
Mr. Speaker: I shall look into the point raised by the hon. Member.

OIL TANKER "OCEAN BRIDGE" (ACCIDENT)
Dr. Dickson Mabon (by Private Notice)asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the serious incident on the vessel "Ocean Bridge" while in the Greenock Dry Dock on Friday, 19th November, which resulted in the death of two men and injury to others.
The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Robert Carr): I have been asked to reply.

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I understand that the "Ocean Bridge", an oil tanker of 113,000 tons, was damaged in a fire at sea about five months ago. She was brought to the Clyde and taken first to a tanker cleaning berth. She entered dry dock for repairs about two weeks ago.
On Friday, 19th November a shipyard manager and a number of workmen went on board the "Ocean Bridge" while she was in dry dock at Scott Lithgow's yard on the Lower Clyde.
There appears to have been a sudden discharge of carbon dioxide gas—presumably that used in the fire-extinguishing system—into the engine room of the ship, asphyxiating the men who were working there. The manager and one other man died and 10 men were taken to hospital, one of whom had fractured his skull, probably in a fall.
There will be a fatal accident inquiry under Scottish law. Meanwhile the accident is being investigated by the Factory Inspectorate.
I am sure the House will join me in expressing profound sympathy with the relatives of those who have died, and with the injured.
Dr. Mabon: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for making that statement. I should like to associate my right hon. and hon. Friends and myself with the right hon. Gentleman's expression of sympathy to the widows and families, and to the injured men and their families.
May I ask the Minister whether he knows from the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether the inquiry following the explosion to which he referred on this ship while at sea five months ago has been set up and, if it has been at work, when it might report? Perhaps he does not have the information today. If not, perhaps he will let us know in due course.
In particular, will the right hon. Gentleman make sure, either through the Lord Advocate, or through the Secretary of State, or by whatever process he likes, that the findings of the inquiry into the incident at sea are made known to the inquiry which he has announced today, so that if there is a common factor between the two incidents it can be taken into account?
Mr. Carr: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is right in suspecting that I do not know the answer to the first question, but I shall find it out and write to him about it. I shall certainly take into very close account the proposition which he has put forward and see that that, too, is conveyed to my right hon. Friend, and that close attention is paid to it.
Mr. Edward Taylor: Has my right hon. Friend considered what appears to be an increase in the incidence of accidents in ship repairing, as opposed to shipbuilding?
Second, there appear to have been remarkable acts of selfless bravery following this accident, and a tribute has been paid to them. Would my right hon. Friend and his colleagues make sure that in the Honours List account is taken of bravery in factories, as well as services elsewhere?
Mr. Carr: My hon. Friend will know that it would not be proper for me to reply in any specific terms to his last point, except to say that we are all aware of the great bravery which people show under these circumstances, and only a few months ago such bravery was recognised. I am aware of the increasing number of accidents, particularly on oil tankers, and that is one reason why every case must be particularly closely looked into.
Mr. Buchan: I should like to thank both sides of the House for their expressions of sympathy. As hon. Members know, both men who died were from my constituency. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward Taylor) on the particular incident of bravery involving one of these men.
I wonder whether the fatal accident inquiry will be able to generalise, as well as looking into particular problems. For example, will trade unions be able to be represented by counsel to see whether there is a general problem arising from this kind of ship which is likely to increase in future? That is one of the anxieties with which I hope the fatal accident inquiry will deal.
Mr. Carr: I do not think that it is for me to presume to say how a fatal accident inquiry should be conducted

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under Scottish law, but I shall make sure that the hon. Member's point is drawn to the attention of those concerned.

HEALTH AND PERSONAL SOCIAL SERVICES (EXPENDITURE)
The Secretary of State for Social Services (Sir Keith Joseph): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement about developments decided by the Government in the health and personal social services.
The Government have decided to allocate a further £118 million to speed progress in improving conditions in some of the most vulnerable sectors of the health and personal social services over the next four years. Taking into account the extra £110 million which the Chancellor enabled me to announce in the House of Commons in November last year, this means that since the Government came to office 17 months ago they have made resources totalling some £250 million at present prices available for special improvements in the services over and above, and completely additional to, the cumulative increase of the order of £80 million each year which is included in the expenditure programme for normal development.
My right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales will be informing the House of their proposals for development of services in those countries. The English share of the latest addition, amounting to £100 million, will in the main be spent on expanding and improving services for the elderly and the mentally ill.
I envisage that about £45 million of the money will go to the hospital service. The Government intend to improve hospital accommodation for both the elderly and the mentally ill. Some of the money will also be spent on improving the standards of such things as staffing, furnishing and food, and on increasing the number of places for the elderly.
The extra provision will certainly not enable us to overcome all the problems of these hospitals but it will be enough to secure substantial improvements. In the five years ending in 1975–76 hospital authorities are expected to spend about £150 million over and above the level of expenditure last year on improved ser-
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vices in non-acute hospitals. Of this about two-thirds will come from the special additional allocations.
About one-third of the latest £100 million has been earmarked for the health and personal social services provided by local authorities. In particular, I am sure that local authorities will wish to join me in a determined effort to sweep away all the former Poor Law institutions still being used as old people's homes and to replace them with modern buildings. I hope this programme will be completed within the next five years. In this way we should at last dispose of the old workhouse and its Dickensian associations. I also hope that local authorities will be able to go a long way towards replacing the many old and not always satisfactory houses which have been adapted to accommodate old people and that they will, in general, make special efforts to provide more and better accommodation for both the elderly and the mentally ill. Additional loan authorisations of £30 million will be available to enable the local authorities to undertake these programmes.
I am also making provision from the extra money to meet the costs of reorganising the National Health Service. The balance of the money is to be spent on a number of improvements: I intend, for example, to provide for increases in key staff for accident and emergency departments, and I shall have particularly in mind the need to provide more facilities for people with epilepsy, and the need both to develop, and to evaluate and spread information about aids and equipment of all kinds for the disabled. Where appropriate, I shall be seeking the co-operation of the voluntary organisations as well as that of public authorities. The response of the hospital authorities in improving arrangements for the younger chronic sick has been such as to exceed the money I set aside from last year's £110 million and I am therefore providing the further sum required from the extra money now available. I shall be making announcements about these, and other developments later.
The whole House will, I am sure, welcome the Government's allocation of these substantial extra resources and will recognise the importance of the contribution they will make to improving the health and personal social services.
Mrs. Shirley Williams: I am sure that the House will indeed congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the additional resources which he has found for the Health Service, but I am also sure that the House will note that, under the pressure of both circumstances and unemployment, some of the Government's earlier pledges about public expenditure are being very wisely abandoned.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman the following questions? First, can we assume that this additional £118 million is all to be new money and does not depend on raising money through any further charges on the Health Service?
Second, will the right hon. Gentleman make arrangements to ensure that the additional expenditure for the personal social services provided by local authorities will be properly distributed throughout the country, so far as he is able? Also, will it be followed by an addition to community care? As the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate, the one disturbing feature of this statement is that almost all the additional money is to go to institutional care, when, as he himself rightly pointed out, much needs to be done in the field of home care for the elderly and the mentally ill. I should be grateful for anything which the right hon. Gentleman can say about that, in respect of the implications of this on the rate support grant negotiations in future.
Lastly—the statement is not clear on this point—is the one-third of the additional £100 million to be earmarked for services to be provided by the local authorities the same £30 million embodied in the additional loan authorisations? I presume that it is, but the statement does not make it clear.
Sir K. Joseph: The answer to the last point is "Yes". The hon. Lady and the House will observe that, as during the past 13 years of Conservative Government, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor is able simultaneously to cut taxation and to increase expenditure on the social services. Second, the allocation of extra money is not dependent on any agreement or proposal to increase charges.
Third, the local authority money will not be distributed by the Government. It is up to local authorities to make their own decisions in the knowledge that increased loan sanctions are available. I
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would judge that those who come first will be first served, because I am sure that most of them will want to join me in the programme which I have spelled out. Fourth and last, the hon. Lady should consider the public expenditure White Paper when it is published, to see the provision made by the Government for what is expected to be the rising local authority programme of community care.
Sir D. Renton: I also welcome my right hon. Friend's statement. Does what he has said about the provision being made for local authorities to help the mentally ill mean that the emphasis will be on long-term care? If that is so, will he bear in mind the desirability of not having places which are too large for these people to be cared for, that they can do better in a more intimate atmosphere?
Sir K. Joseph: Yes, certainly, but the local authority provision will, I expect, be primarily for those who can be returned to the community under sheltered conditions from the non-acute hospitals.
Mr. Russell Kerr: Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that a fair share of the new resources made available will go to the para-medical technical staff, who have been very much the Cinderellas of this service, and whose salaries are long overdue for a big rise?
Sir K. Joseph: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on introducing a subject which I know is important to him, but the Cinderellas above all have been the elderly and the mentally ill. It is for them that this statement is primarily intended.
Mrs. Kellett-Bowman: Will my right hon. Friend accept that I welcome this statement most warmly, particularly since two very large mental institutions are in my constituency and one of them is for the mentally subnormal, who desperately need more hospital accommodation? I hope that this will enable them to get it.
Sir K. Joseph: My hon. Friend will realise that a large part of the £110 million announced by the Chancellor and me last year was intended for the mentally handicapped. This statement is for the other two Cinderella groups.
Mr. Prentice: The right hon. Gentleman made the familiar political point

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that the Government are reducing taxation and increasing expenditure at the same time. Does it not follow from that that they could be doing a great deal more for the elderly and the mentally sick and that they could have announced it much earlier if they had not given such urgent priority to improving the conditions of the surtax payer?
Sir K. Joseph: But the right hon. Gentleman is conveniently forgetting that this time last year we allocated £110 million extra for the elderly and mentally handicapped over and above the normal increase in the basic provision.
Sir D. Walker-Smith: Are we to understand from my right hon. Friend's answer to the hon. Member for Hitchin (Mrs. Shirley Williams) that local authorities will have a discretion in the use of this welcome increase in loan sanction as between institutional aid and community care? Is he satisfied that there will be no delay in the implementation of these increases by reason of the local government reforms?
Sir K. Joseph: No, my right hon. and learned Friend is misunderstanding the position on this point. The increased loan sanctions are addressed to capital expenditure only. It is the rate support grant provision for which my right hon. and learned Friend would be right to look in the new public expenditure White Paper. It allows local authorities to extend their community care services. I should not have thought, on the second point, that local government reorganisation will interfere with the programme.
Mr. Mayhew: On the question of hospitals for the mentally sick and handicapped, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the enormous importance of increasing the amount of individual attention which can be given to the individual patient by a trained nurse? Second, will he look again at the advice he gives to hospital authorities about the minimum proper expenditure on food for hospitals for the mentally ill and handicapped? Finally, on community care, will he remember that there seems to be a general view that the smaller and simpler the residential accommodation given to ex-patients the better? Would he say how this £30 million might be used towards this—perhaps undertaken by voluntary organisations?
Sir K. Joseph: I can agree with every one of the right hon. Gentleman's observations. I know that, from his very ardent voluntary service activities—which led him recently actually into a mental illness hospital for experience—he knows a great deal about what is needed. He will recognise, as I do, that the extra money available will not be able satisfactorily to meet all the needs. It is a great help towards meeting the needs, and the needs include more nurses, more trained staff, better food and smaller wards. All these are accepted.
Dr. Stuttaford: I know that my right hon. Friend will be aware of the pleasure which this greater sum will give to the medical profession. Will he assure us that some of this sum will go for the care of the dying—terminal care—whose plight at the moment can often be described only as outrageous?
Sir K. Joseph: But my hon. Friend will be aware that what is needed for the care of the dying is above all the wider use of existing techniques. There are places all over the country which provide loving care for the dying. There are places which specialise in it, and it would not be proper for me to mention them. It is not better accommodation but a greater spread of good practice in handling these poignant days and weeks which is needed among the medical profession.
Mr. Cronin: I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's statement. When he allocates these additional resources to the hospital services, would he bear in mind that there is room for considerable improvement of operating theatres in hospitals all over the country, so many of which are sub-standard?
Sir K. Joseph: The hon. Gentleman must recollect that there is an £80 million a year cumulative increase in the money made available by the Government for the normal improvement of the health and personal social services. It is out of this normal cumulative increase that such improvements should be made.
Mr. Pardoe: I welcome the contribution which this money will of course make to the development of the health and personal services. Would the Secretary of State care to estimate how much this investment will mean in terms of new jobs, and also how much will be spent

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in the development areas, particularly the South-West development area.
Sir K. Joseph: The Government recently announced through my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment an extra programme of expenditure for the regions including £22 million for improvements in the health and personal social services. My announcement today is over and above that, and will be spread evenly over the country, including the development areas. It will place some increased demand on the construction industries and quite a substantial increased demand on women's labour, and particularly skilled labour in the hospitals.
Dame Irene Ward: How will my right hon. Friend arrange for all local authorities to take advantage of this very good offer which he is making? May I tell him how glad I am, considering the criticisms that have come from the benches opposite, that we have a Conservative Government in power—[Interruption.]—who are providing money which we believe is essential for those who require it? Will my right hon. Friend see that advantage is taken of this offer—[Interruption.]—from the Government and tell hon. Gentlemen opposite to stop carping?
Sir K. Joseph: My hon. Friend is right to emphasise that it is a Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer who is enabling two successive increases to be made in public expenditure on these services. I would hope that as from the availability of this news on the radio, from now on, local authorities will be considering their applications for increased loan sanctions.
Mr. Orme: Though he is getting plaudits from his hon. Friends, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to be aware that many of us remember the recent parsimonious Social Security Bill which took away unemployment, sick, industrial injury and short-time working benefits from millions of industrial workers who needed them? Is he aware that we recognise the unevenness of the policies of this Government and that many of my hon. Friends still believe in a free National Health Service?
Sir K. Joseph: The Bill to which the hon. Gentleman referred contained no initiatives which his right hon. Friends had not suggested originally, and they are not among those who believe in a free National Health Service.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. We must get on.
Mr. William Hamilton: On a point of order. Are you aware, Mr. Speaker, that in his statement the right hon. Gentleman referred to some Scottish figures and indicated that they would be made available? I ask you what protection we, as representatives of Scottish constituencies, have to make certain that we can question the Secretary of State for Scotland on this matter so far as it pertains to Scottish hospitals and the care of the elderly and mentally handicapped in Scotland. Are you aware, Sir, that we are getting this practice consistently, with Ministers purporting to speak for the Secretary of State for Scotland, who can surely defend his own position?
Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order. I am sure, however, that the point raised by the hon. Gentleman will have been noted.
Mr. Rankin: Further to the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton), may I ask you to bear in mind that evidently I was wrong in assuming that, following the right hon. Gentleman's statement in relation to England, there would be a similar one, perhaps in better terms, relating to Scotland? Will such a statement be made today? If not, when are we likely to receive it?
Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order for me. Again, however, I am sure that it will have been noted.

Resolved,
That Mr. E. L. Mallalieu be appointed Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.—[Mr. Whitelaw.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.55 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Reginald Maudling): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  I am particularly glad to have the opportunity of commending this Bill to the House. It is a Measure drafted and produced by this Government, for which we are responsible. However, it is the culmination of a great deal of work and thought over many years by people both inside and outside the House who are concerned with the problems of crime and punishment and penal treatment generally.
  There is nothing in the Bill which is in any way dramatic or spectacular, which is as it should be because it does not deal with problems that should be dealt with in spectacular ways. Nor do I believe that it is a controversial Bill. I hope it will be welcomed on both sides of the House, and I look forward to the Committee stage producing much valuable advice from hon. Members on both sides on the ways in which the lines that we have set down can, if possible, be improved and further developed.
  It is a very important Measure indeed for two main reasons. The first is that it is a constructive effort to deal with the problem of crime and punishment, which gives rise to very great concern to the wide mass of the British people. The second is that it contains a number of suggestions of an imaginative character; it breaks a great deal of new ground and is often experimental. These experiments and new ideas can be immensely rewarding.
  The general philosophy underlying the Bill is this: the social problem that we all face is the growth of crime, and particularly the growth of violent crime. In recent years the number of indictable offences has been rising, though there is some sign of a tailing off in the increase. Within that total, the number of crimes of violence has been rising at an alarming rate.
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  Next, largely as a concomitant of that, there has been an enormous increase in the prison population, which is about four times the size it was before the war. This leads to very grave overcrowding in our prisons. I sometimes hear or read of people saying that prison means nothing nowadays. I wonder whether they would say that if they knew that it meant living two or three in a cell designed for one.
  The conditions in our prisons—and this is certainly not the fault of the Government—are very serious. We must pay particular attention to this problem of overcrowding, which in itself is bad but is also important in that it makes the job of the prison service much more difficult and the possibility of rehabilitation and redemption far less likely than it otherwise would be.
  The Bill tries to tackle both problems. First, it increases the scale and range of penalties available to the courts. Secondly, it embarks on a new range of non-custodial penalties designed to find methods of awarding punishments to criminals which do not involve incarcerating them. That is the theme of the Bill—first, the greater scale and range of penalties in certain circumstances and, second, a wider range of alternatives to imprisonment in other cases.
  I wish to pay particular tribute at this stage to the Advisory Council on the Penal System, under its distinguished Chairman, Mr. Young; to its subcommittees under Lord Widgery and Baroness Woottoon; and to former members of the Advisory Council who are now in the Government, my noble Friend Lord Sandford and my hon. and learned Friend the Under-Secretary, whom I particularly welcome as my colleague in these matters because for many years he has paid great attention to them, and hon. Members on both sides will agree that he has profound knowledge of this subject.
  I will briefly give my own philosophy on these matters. My first principle is that the courts alone can decide what is the appropriate penalty in any particular case. There is a tendency sometimes to say that people should put pressure on the courts, but I would regard this as quite wrong. The Independence of the courts is the part of the fundamental basis of our constitution, and only the courts,

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  faced by an individual and the evidence, can really determine what the appropriate sentence is in any particular case. My first principle, therefore, is that the courts must decide what to do with any person who is found guilty of any offence.
  Second, I think we should distinguish between crimes of violence and other crimes, and I would like to see tougher sentences passed on violent criminals. I should like to see other criminals dealt with in ways other than imprisonment. There is a clear distinction here, though my definition of violence goes a fairly long way. For example, I would include drug peddling, because I regard drug peddling as a violence against the human spirit equally as iniquitous as any physical violence.
  Thirdly, the purpose of punishment is threefold. Deterrence, clearly, is one of the most important purposes. Second, I believe—I may sound old-fashioned—that an element of retribution must inevitably enter into any system of punishment. But we should never forget that redemption is the third element of any penal system. We must never assume that any person is beyond redemption, and we must always remember that one of the purposes of imprisonment, or any other penalty, is to restore the person concerned to society in such a condition that he can take his rightful place as a member of it.
  As I said, the growth of crime generally is marked by two things: first, the increase in violent crime, and second, the very alarming increase in the proportion of crimes committed by young people. It is true that this has happened in other countries as well, but that is in no way a consolation to us. If we say that it is worse somewhere else, we should remind ourselves that it may get worse here, too, in the not too distant future. To study and try to elucidate the cause of the growth in crime must clearly be our anxiety all the time. This is a long-term problem involving many factors. In many ways, the fact that there are no international wars involving Britain means that the aggressive instinct of our young people breaks out in other forms. The breakdown of family discipline and the decline in religious discipline are also factors. The old dis-
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  ciplines are weakening, and proper new disciplines have not yet been found to take their place. These are long-term considerations, but meanwhile society must be protected against the growing level of crime.
  The first action, surely, must be to improve the means of detection, because detection is the best way of preventing crime. That is why we have been concentrating on strengthening the police force. I am glad to say that recently the strength of our police forces has been increasing in a very encouraging way. Second, we have been providing them with very much improved equipment, and expenditure on equipment is rising rapidly. Third, we are always seeking means of transferring from the police to other people jobs which can be done by others and do not need to occupy the attention of a trained policeman. In all these ways—by increasing the strength of the police force, by giving them better equipment and by releasing them from duties they need not undertake—we are trying to strengthen our police so that they can concentrate on the major battle against crime.
  The second stage, once a man has been brought to trial, is to ensure that the processes of trial are as efficient as possible, and the Courts Act passed last Session will make a big contribution to that.
  There remains, in the Bill we are discussing, the question of penalties and what are the right penalties which should be provided as maxima by this House for the various offences with which people are charged. As I said, it must remain always for the courts to decide, within the maxima laid down by Parliament, the appropriate sentence in any case. But I am quite certain that courts will always pay attention both to the climate of public opinion—after all, magistrates and judges are part of the public just as anyone else—and to the view of Parliament and will interpret, from Parliament's views as to the relative importance of the maximum sentence in any given type of offence, what they should regard as an appropriate, normal sentence for that particular type of offence. Therefore, in settling the maxima for various offences, we are also giving the sort of guidance in general to the courts that it is our duty to give.

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  Deterrence is part of the main purpose of criminal justice, but we must never forget redemption. I believe that a prison regime should be hard and simple, but it should never be deliberately harsh. Deprivation of liberty, particularly in the conditions existing inevitably in some of our prisons at present, is in itself a very serious punishment indeed. I do not accept the views of some who say, rather glibly, that in the old days prisoners were dealt with so toughly that they never came back for more. That is totally untrue. I prefer to accept the view of an experienced prison officer who spoke the other day of the changes of recent years. He said, "We do not turn them out as bloody-minded as we used to." We should never forget, in ensuring that the courts have full power to administer condign punishment for vicious crime, that the purpose of condign punishment is not only retribution but also redemption and restitution to normal society.
  Against that background, I should like to explain the main purposes of the Bill which I commend to the House. The first item to which I refer is the increase in penalties for firearms offences. In general, it is a fact that the maximum penalties available to the courts are very high, and recently maximum penalties have been reviewed by Parliament in the Theft Act and the Criminal Damage Act, which established a maximum penalty of 10 years' imprisonment for new forms of criminal damage. Also, the maximum penalties for most serious offences of violence against the person are being reviewed by the Criminal Law Revision Committee, and it is important to await its views on this difficult subject in the light of the new situation that has arisen since the abolition of capital punishment.
  It seemed that there was one area in particular where new measures were necessary, and that is concerning the use of firearms, because this has been outstandingly the most disturbing growth in the pattern of crime in recent years. By Clause 24 I intend, if the House approves, to increase the maximum penalty, particularly for the use of firearms to resist arrest and the possession of firearms with intent to endanger life, from 14 years to life imprisonment. By visiting on these offences the maximum penalty known to the law, we should show clearly how seriously Parliament takes the growth in the use of firearms in Britain.
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  My next point is reparation. The courts at present have considerable powers to order reparation from the criminal to his victim, but they are not entirely satisfactory. Lord Widgery's Committee pointed this out with some care. It suggested that reinforcing and modifying the law on this matter would make it much easier for courts than it is at present to impose upon a criminal an obligation to recompense the victim of his crime. That is entirely in line with modern thinking on this matter.
  We must recognise the practical limitations. Only too often a criminal has no means from which he can make reparation. But when he is able to make reparation it is most important to give the courts clear opportunities and guidance that it is the considered view of Parliament that those who commit crimes should make good the damage they have done to their victims. That does not affect the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme as it is at present; it is already provided within the scheme that any reparation received by the victim should be offset against the total of compensation he receives under the scheme, and this will not be changed.
  A particular feature of the Bill is the proposal of criminal bankruptcy, which again arises from a recommendation of Lord Widgery's Committee and in turn owes a great deal to an earlier suggestion of the Law Society. This is in the nature of an experiment. It is designed to ensure that criminals who commit large-scale crimes, especially fraud, should not be able to benefit from the fruits of their criminal activity. This provision will not be easy to enforce. It will involve a good deal of effort, particularly by the Director of Public Prosecutions, and possibly more staff. That is why we think it right, at any rate in the first instance, to limit it to substantial frauds. The figure that we have suggested is £15,000. The purpose of the proposal is that the court should be able to make a criminal bankruptcy order, as a result of which the Official Petitioner, who will in practice be the Director of Public Prosecutions, will then be able to proceed in the normal way of bankruptcy proceedings by presenting a petition and ensuring that compensation through the bankruptcy is paid to the victims of the crime, who will be named in the criminal bankruptcy order.

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  This is very much in the nature of an experiment, but one which has very good antecedents and arguments for it. If it is successful, as I hope and believe it will be, it will provide for many people a feeling of a new measure of justice. There is still a good deal of suspicion, some of it justified, that people can get away with things by spending a short time in prison and afterwards retire to live gracefully on the proceeds of their crime. The purpose of this provision is to ensure that that will not happen in future.
  My next two points are fairly small but valuable. I want to deal first with the provision for the forfeiture of property used in the commission of a crime—for example, radio sets, printing apparatus and the like—and, second, with Clause 23, which gives the higher courts power to disqualify from driving an offender who has used a vehicle in the commission of a crime. These are not major matters, but they are useful additions to the powers available to the courts.
  On this theme of the powers of the courts, I would refer to suspended sentences. There is a general feeling that the present provision is not in practice working as intended. Rather than having fewer people in prison, it has often meant the courts awarding suspended gaol sentences when otherwise they would have imposed fines or probation. This arises from the mandatory nature of the provision. It is surely wrong that courts should be faced with a situation where, although they think a short term of imprisonment is appropriate they cannot impose it and either have to pass an inappropriate sentence or to pass a longer sentence, as sometimes happens.
  We shall, therefore, withdraw the mandatory provision of suspended sentences. This does not mean that we are withdrawing from the general principle involved; we are just changing the practice. We shall make it clear that we are following the principles of the First Offenders Act, that with anyone who is a first offender, in the sense that he has not had a previous sentence of imprisonment, the court will be required to obtain information, usually a probation report, about him, and the magistrates' court which decides on prison, if it does, will have to state why this is being done.
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  We are anxious to make it clear that prison should be regarded as a penalty of last resort in this type of case. At the same time, it would not be right to withdraw from the courts, as has been done in recent years, the ability to award a short-term sentence without mandatory suspension, which I do not believe has worked as it was thought it would. Therefore, we intend to give the courts more flexibility to enable them to award more appropriate penalties. After the initial impact of the change, this will mean some reduction in the prison population.
  These are the general measures that we have in mind to increase the powers of the courts and to make their powers more flexible, thus enabling them to deal with offences on a basis which would appeal to modern society.
  I come now to another series of proposals designed as an alternative to imprisonment. The second half of my outlook on this is that those who need not be sent to prison, those who are not guilty of violent crimes, should be punished in other ways in the interests of relieving the strain on the prison service and in the interests of the community. We propose a number of new ideas, some of them experimental, which will, I hope, be fruitful in the long run.
  The first is community service. I was attracted from the start to the idea that people who have committed minor offences would be better occupied doing a service to their fellow citizens than sitting alongside others in a crowded gaol. This principle was recommended by Lady Wootton and her sub-committee of the Advisory Council. We have considered, with probation service local committees and voluntary bodies, how this can be done. The proposals that we have put forward are of a practical character. The courts will have the ability to sentence people, as an alternative to prison sentences, to 240 hours of community service work. This will, of course, have to be a voluntary choice of the individual concerned for a number of reasons; after all, if it is not done voluntarily the work will not be good. The alternative will be to go to gaol, which means that it will not be entirely voluntary.
  We have in mind two sorts of community service. We are thinking, first,

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  of practical work that does not involve a relationship with other people—decorating houses for deprived families, constructing playgrounds, or working in hospital gardens. Secondly, we envisage work for individuals, such as helping elderly or handicapped people in the house or garden. Obviously, those selected for this kind of work will have to be chosen with great care. It will not be for the court to decide the sort of work to be done in individual cases. The probation service and voluntary organisations will satisfy themselves that adequate opportunities are available in the area, and will inform the courts of these opportunities, and the courts will be able to decide whether people should be sentenced to this form of service.
  Objections are sometimes raised to the idea of voluntary workers and sentenced individuals working side by side. This is not of great substance; the trade union movement has not objected in any way because it, too, recognises the need to bring about a reduction in the prison population. We have consulted voluntary societies, and do not believe difficulties will arise.
  This is a wholly novel concept in this country. It has been tried experimentally in other countries, but it is new to us. I have high hopes for it. As I said at the beginning, I like the idea of sentenced persons doing something useful for their fellow citizens rather than mouldering inside a prison. In fact, such voluntary activity might well lead to their continuing to do it in the future of their own free will.
  The next experiment is that of probation hostels and bail hostels. A grit deal of work has been done in this area by voluntary organisations in providing hostels for people on probation—an excellent way of keeping them out of prison. The Salvation Army has provided a new, experimental bail hostel. These hostels are for those who would otherwise have been remanded in custody because they have no fixed address.
  These are valuable new initiatives. Up to now they have been on a voluntary basis because the Government have not had powers to finance activities of this kind. We are now taking such powers, and this development should grow into something of considerable value.
  Miss Joan Lestor: I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. Before he leaves the question of hostels, which I support, does he include in Clause 38 the possibility for hostels to be set up to receive persons on discharge from prison? There is an urgent need to bridge the gap between prison life and life outside.
  Mr. Maudling: That is provided for already. I agree that it is very important.
  Another point to which I would refer briefly is day training centres, an experiment designed to deal with people who are persistent offenders because they cannot cope with the complexities of present-day life. Instead of being shut up in prison, they will have treatment at a day training centre which will in one way or another help them cope with the problems which they will have to face.
  There is a further proposal designed to deal with habitual drunken offenders. Such offenders would undergo treatment at so-called "drying-out" centres—as an hon. Member described them. We do not want people who are habitual drunkards locked up in gaol. They must be taken to an establishment where they can obtain treatment. Clause 26 authorises the police, instead of arresting and charging such persons, to take them to centres where the treatment will be voluntary. This will be a better way of dealing with the problem than by merely putting people in the "lock up" for a few days.
  Another new idea is the deferred sentence, which can be of very great use to the courts. The idea behind this is that a person may be found guilty and should be sentenced but it may be that his circumstances will change in the relatively near future. He may be hoping to get a steady job, he may be about to get married, he may offer to do something to make good the damage he has done to his victim. There are many ways in which a man who has been found guilty could change his circumstances or have his circumstances changed a fairly short time afterwards.
  I am therefore proposing to give the courts the power to say to a man, "All right, you are guilty, but we will not sentence you now; we will see what happens in six months. Come back then, and we will decide your sentence on the

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  basis of what has happened in the meantime."
  There is a proposal about the parole system which devolves on local review committees responsibility for recommending release in the simpler cases. This is right because of the growth of the parole system. I know that there is a certain amount of criticism of parole, but it is misguided. Of over 7,000 prisoners who have been released on parole, only about 6 per cent. have been recalled to prison, and only half of those have committed fresh offences. There are about 1,600 men and women currently on parole who would otherwise be in prison. Of course, mistakes have been made from time to time. Recently we had to tighten things up. But the general principle of parole has proved itself, and I would like to pay a very real tribute to Lord Hunt and all the others on the Parole Board and the local committees for the painstaking and conscientious work they perform.
  Clause 28 deals with a gap in appeal procedures. Where an accused person has been acquitted and a point of law has arisen, it cannot be taken to appeal because the accused has been acquitted. We are now making it possible for a point of law of this kind to be put to the Court of Appeal so that the law may be clarified although, clearly, the individual who has been acquitted will not be affected in any way.
  Those are the main proposals. I want to say one thing about the probation service. As the House will have noticed, a very large proportion of these new ideas depend upon the work of the service. We have made it quite clear that we intend to expand the service. The figures we have in mind are an expansion from 3,400 whole-time officers at the end of 1970 to 4,700 by the end of 1975. Training arrangements are being expanded rapidly, and the number of officers whose training is due to be completed in the course of next year is about 450 compared with 350 this year, a very big increase indeed. Plans are in hand to provide 550 training places by the autumn of 1972.
  There has been, as hon. Members on both sides have made clear to me, some controversy about the pay of probation officers. We reached an agreement, part
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  of which was that an inquiry should be held into the relative pay appropriate to the probation service and other forms of social service. We undertook to set up this inquiry, which was very necessary, and I am glad to say that Mr. Butterworth, the Vice-Chancellor of Warwick University, has now agreed to undertake it. I am sure that he will do so with the co-operation and good will of all concerned. From my point of view, the sooner it is possible to thrash out these relativities the better.
  The Government are wholly committed to an expansion of the probation service on the scale that I have mentioned, and all our plans for many of these new ideas depend upon the availability of the devoted and skilled work of the probation service.
  To recapitulate the main proposals in the Bill, the Government believe that there is a real problem, as the country recognises, in the expansion of crime, particularly violent crime. We therefore propose introducing new measures based on two principles. The first is that those who commit crimes of violence should be punished severely, and the second is that those whose offences do not include violence should, so far as possible, be punished by means other than imprisonment. I believe that this is a clear and rational distinction.
  This Bill, based on the work of many devoted people over a long period, will make a real contribution to the health of our society.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Question is, That the Bill be read a Second time. As many as are of that opinion—Mr. Callaghan.
  4.25 p.m.
  Mr. James Callaghan: You are right, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if you assume that there is unlikely to be a Division at the end of the debate, but it would really be trespassing a little too far to assume that there will not even be any discussion!
  Any new Bill on criminal justice is an important occasion, and I congratulate the Home Secretary on having the opportunity to introduce this Bill. This is especially so when we consider it against the period of great strain in prison policy and administration, and the fact that, as he has said, we are in an

  977
  era of rapidly rising crime, including—and especially—crimes of violence. One reacts upon the other. There is this increase in crime, including crimes of violence, and then the strain on the prison service grows.
  There are now 40,000 offenders in prison, which is a very high number, higher than it has been for many years. More of them remain in prison for longer periods than they used to. This, too, is an important factor in considering our policy. If hon. Members have studied the pattern of sentences set out in a much-neglected but excellently-written White Paper, published during my era and called "People in Prison"—I regret to say that it fell with a dull thud on the populace, but it still contains a lot of useful material—they will have seen the tremendous change in the length of time for which people remain in prison and how many of them stayed in prison during the last 30 or 40 years and even more striking, over the last 60 years.
  I have got out the figures which show that, between 1938 and 1968, in every category where man is imprisoned for a period longer than six months, there has been a great increase in the number serving that longer period. For example, for between six and 12 months' imprisonment in 1938 the figure was 1,881; now it is 5,858. In the year before the war there were only 581 men serving sentences between 18 months and three years; now the figure is 4,059. If we take three to five years, a long sentence which must affect morale, the temper, tone and attitude of the prison and the prison service, there were 158 people serving such sentences in 1938, which is about one per prison if they were to be spread round the country. Now there are 1,086—seven times as many. This is a very important matter in our attitude towards the problem of criminal justice and what happens after a man has been convicted.
  It is one of our difficulties that this change in the much greater number of people serving long sentences has come at a time when there is considerable doubt about the value of prison as a deterrent, its use as a method of reform or rehabilitation or even as a punishment. I am inclined to agree with the Home Secretary and what he had to say about the value of prison as a punishment. He had something very important to say, if it works
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  out in the way he hopes and if I understood him aright, in saying that those who committed and were convicted of crimes of violence should go to prison and others should serve something other than prison sentences. That would be a most remarkable transformation if it took place—it would be a revolution. I thought he said that. I think it will be a long time before we get to that position.
  Mr. Maudling: I said, "So far as possible".
  Mr. Callaghan: I should have known that a saving clause would have gone in somewhere even if I missed it at the time. Because of overcrowding in our prisons, because there are now 40,000 men there, 14,000 of them are sleeping two or three to a cell. This, too, is militating against some of the reforms that the Home Secretary wishes to introduce.
  The Home Secretary inherited the biggest prison building programme in our lifetime and he is carrying it on, but we are warned that unless we are careful, an even bigger increase in the prison population will come about. This was foreseen a few years ago, and in his last report the Commissioner for the Metropolitan Police seemed to be calling for more severe sentences to counteract the current wave of robbery and assault. He said that although people could still walk down our streets safely, nevertheless he felt—and I feel—that we faced a serious situation.
  I have never thought that there was some magic formula which would solve the problem overnight, and I do not think so now. I held that view before the election, when it was not entirely shared by others. No more does the Bill hold the view that there is some magic formula. "Step by step" is its mood. It is a modest Bill and it has much to be modest about.
  Nevertheless, it is a rather puzzling Bill, because, despite its unassuming nature—and it will certainly not do any harm and many of its proposals will do some good—as the Home Secretary was good enough to acknowledge, these proposals derive from the work of two committees, basically from the Advisory Council on the Penal System under the chairmanship of Mr. Kenneth Younger, which set up two sub-committees, one with Lord Justice Widgery as its chairman and the

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  other with Lady Wootton as chairman. Both were assisted by able, devoted and public-spirited as well as expert people, including the present Under-Secretary at the Home Office, who gave their time freely. The House offers its thanks to those who volunteered their services.
  Although we customarily and formally pay this tribute, until one has been a Minister and has seen the amount of work and time which people give to services of this kind, freely and without acknowledgement, only the chairman having his name attached to the work, one does not appreciate the number of meetings which have to be attended and the number of hours which are spent studying papers. The country is lucky to have a pool of people who give their services in this way, and we are glad to thank them for it. They must be gratified and perhaps a little surprised to see their proposals translated into a Bill only 18 months after they reported. In some ways, that is a little unusual.
  In addition to the structure of the Bill, which is based on what I might call Widgery-Wootton—they are the authors of the main part of the Bill—there are some miscellaneous Clauses which are unrelated to any central theme. They are of a type which is well known to Ministers and ex-Ministers, that is to say, they are mainly an accumulation of proposals which have piled up in Departmental cupboards awaiting the legislative opportunity to take them up, to blow the dust off them and to incorporate them as the fag end of a Bill devoted mainly to other interests. This is done with every Bill which comes before the House from a Department.
  But I am puzzled because this time the fag end seems to be a substantial part of the Bill, almost as though Ministers have been raking round for something to say. In Part I, Clauses 21 to 23, the issues are different. They deal with compensation orders, restitution orders, suspended sentences, community service orders and probation orders. They will undoubtedly help in the process that the Home Secretary has in mind.
  But I want to take the House back a little, and it is worth spending two or three minutes doing so, because this is hardly the stuff to make the blood run and the pulses surge. The puzzle is to
  980
  find in the Bill the imprint of the new Conservative Administration. I can see the impact of Mr. Kenneth Younger and detect the influence of Lord Widgery and I can see what Lady Wootton had to say about it and I can find a dash of Wiler, with his report on habitual drunken offenders, but I cannot see any trace of the Conservative Party, apart from one cosmetic proposal. I suppose that a rather naïve bystander might say that that was a good thing.
  Mr. Edward Gardner: Does not the right hon. Gentleman know that many of the proposals which are implemented by the Bill were first made by a committee of the Society of Conservative Lawyers?
  Mr. Callaghan: I do not know anything of the sort. What I know is that the basic part of the Bill comes from the two White Papers which I have mentioned, which are the result of committees established in November, 1966, under a Labour Government by the then Home Secretary. Those committees laboured for two or three years and then produced their reports, and it is these reports which form the structure of the Bill. That is what I know.
  As I was saying, it is probably a good thing that criminal justice legislation should not become the creature of the Conservative Party or even of Conservative lawyers, especially when we consider the hash that the Government are making of the rest of their policies. But it is not what we were promised. For example, there was Lord Hailsham. What he said in one of those scathing attacks—and it was said that he was one of the few men who had the capacity to raise this issue to a new high level, well above party of course—was that what was necessary was a fundamental reappraisal of our penal system. He said that a significant cause of lawlessness was our failure to legislate coherently on criminal law. Where in the Bill is the coherent legislation on criminal law which we were expecting and which we were promised 18 months ago?
  We understood that the present Attorney-General had among other tasks the appointed task of framing legislation against trespass by demonstrators: should it be made—indeed, the suggestion was that it should be made—a criminal

  981
  offence? We were told that the Conservatives would propose new laws dealing with the problems of conspiracy by demonstrators who used violence after entering into a demonstration. The present Prime Minister, in a little more detail, said that the law was confused and out of date and that new legislation would be brought in to clarify it, especially on forcible entry, obstruction and violent offences.
  We were assured—and this was the whole heart and philosophy of it, not the milk and water stuff that we have heard this afternoon—that the Conservative Party on the subject of lawlessness would challenge much post-war conventional wisdom. It was to be the voice of the Old Testament instead of the voice of Freud. In colourful language, the Conservatives said:
  "This issue is a plank out of the heart of Tory oak."
  In a less elevated mood, after the Selsdon conference, it was said:
  "Conservative campaign strategists have been deeply impressed by the electoral benefits of Richard Nixon's law and order campaign for the American presidency in 1968."
  That was a little nearer the electoral knuckle, although the writer had to admit that despite the electoral benefits in terms of votes, crime had increased in the United States after Mr. Nixon's election, just as it has in this country after the election of this hearts-of-oak Government. We had the pre-election shouting and the attempt to capitalise on the current deep public concern which should not be mocked, attempts by Conservative propagandists to secure a harvest of votes. That was the intention.
  Now the election is over and here is a Bill which owes practically nothing, if anything, to Conservative Party thinking in five years, but practically everything to the Advisory Council on the Penal System. I do not want to embarrass the Home Secretary, but I suppose that we ought to congratulate him on not believing his own party's pre-election propaganda and on producing a largely sensible Bill. But when I reflect on the attacks on the Labour Government and how this was made a party political issue before the election, and how attempts were made by a number of Conservative speakers, including those who are now leading Conservative Ministers, I say that, although there is joy in heaven over one sinner
  982
  who repenteth, this is a squalid example of how to try to get votes by preying on the public's fears, but failing to carry promises into legislative practice.
  Mr. Norman Fowler: The right hon. Gentleman will notice one significant difference between Conservative policy and Labour policy, and that is that police recruiting is totally unrestricted, which compares markedly with the two years when the right hon. Gentleman was Home Secretary and there were severe restrictions on it.
  Mr. Callaghan: That is true, and I shall come to the question of resources later. However, I should be very interested to hear how police recruiting has gone in the last 18 months, although it is probably too short a period in which to judge. This is the kind of argument which was used well before the election, and if it is to be put on this basis I point out that more police were recruited during 1964 to 1970 than in any previous comparable period. It is the sort of approach which the hon. Gentleman has repeated which is in sharp contrast with the honeyed and mellifluous tones in which the Home Secretary introduced this modest Bill with which no one can quarrel.
  Mr. Maudling: It is fair to point out that the rate of expansion of the police force is very much higher than the rate left behind by the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Callaghan: Although I do not have the figures, I am assured that that is not true. I suggest that the Under-Secretary of State produces the figures—
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Mark Carlisle)rose—
  Mr. Callaghan: I suggest that the hon. and learned Gentleman does it when he winds up. He will find that the record for recruitment to the police service happened during the lifetime of the Labour Government when there was an increase in the force of well over 4,000. There has never been such an increase since.
  We see how quickly the Tory reverts to type. The Bill bears no relation to anything that the Conservatives said in opposition. To be fair, the Under-Secretary of State did not say it—he was a member of the Wootton Committee—but

  983
  his leader, the Lord Chancellor, the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General said it in an endeavour to see if they could get a cheap harvest of votes from it.
  There is nothing in the Bill with which anybody can quarrel. There will be no Division on it. If I had been at the Home Office, I should probably have introduced something very like it myself. It is unlikely to cause divisions on a party basis, despite the great propaganda campaign, although I suppose that there will be scope for differences of opinion in Committee, probably across the Floor, so to speak, as between members of parties. The Bill has aroused no excitement, very little interest and hardly any comment. I make it clear that I welcome many of its provisions. They can be of value in the punishment and treatment of the offender.
  Clauses 14 to 18 dealing with community service are as potentially valuable as anything in the Bill. Certainly I would have wanted to introduce something like them, however unrelated they are to what Conservatives were saying before the election. They propose a new type of non-custodial penalty. It is a very ambitious and worthy idea that those who have done damage to the community should expiate their offence by giving some part-time service to the community. As the Widgery Report said when referring to financial reparation,
  "the simple principle of redress was once the very cornerstone of English criminal law."
  I see every reason why we should go back to it in this instance.
  But the same principle can be used in respect of service to the community. Such service can, as the Home Secretary said, take the form of constructional enterprises for the benefit of the community as a whole without regard to individual reparation—such as cleaning beaches, restoring canals and helping in hospital kitchens—or of acts of personal service to individuals—for example, decorating the homes of elderly people. I agree that there is a very strong case for this sort of provision and I hope that it will be implemented. However, I hope that the people concerned will not just be involved in what might be regarded as menial tasks. One of the most important aspects will be, not just the task offenders are engaged in and not
  984
  even the social value, but the contact it will enable them to have with people who are not offenders. This is especially true of the young offender who has not become hardened in crime; it can help to link him with the community as a whole.
  I accept the general conclusion of the Wootton Report, namely, that it is necessary to link projects with voluntary organisations, that offenders and non-offenders should work together and that offenders should be overseen by the probation and aftercare service. This new type of penalty cannot be a soft option. It will be a great misfortune if such a worthy idea as this is launched in a half-baked way, and that is why the proposal for an experiment is sensible. But I do not know, and the Home Secretary did not tell us, the way in which this work will be co-ordinated. We may well need a special agency to bring together the work of the voluntary organisations, to ensure the proper oversight of the work done by the offender, to ensure that there is a proper flow of work projects, and to see by close links with the local trade union branches, that the interests of paid labour are not prejudiced.
  All those things will be important, and I am not sure that the probation service can carry out the kind of co-ordinating and supervising work which is necessary, although we should by all means use it and, through it, the voluntary organisations. It would be a tragedy if the scheme were to fail as it is one of the exciting new and imaginative ventures to emerge from the Wootton Report. It would be very unfortunate if there were a spate of Press publicity in two or three years saying, "These people are not doing their job. They are wasting time. They have not been employed on worthwhile projects." If this scheme is to be an alternative to prison—and it would be wonderful if it were successful—I ask the Home Secretary to take close oversight of it and to concern himself personally with the nature of the organisation set up to run it. It will be as important as the prison service in some ways.
  I am dubious about the provision to the effect that 50 per cent. of the costs of the scheme will be borne by local authorities. In a scheme of this sort, which clearly will save the State a lot of money, it is asking too much to expect local

  985
  authorities to bear 50 per cent. of the cost, especially if they are dealing with people who are not local residents. I should have thought that 75 per cent. was the sort of figure that we should offer in a case like this. I would not boggle at the thought of the State carying almost the whole of the cost. I hope that the Home Secretary will look at this matter again.
  The Home Secretary is right to propose an entirely new form of order as opposed to the proposal in the Wootton Report for giving magistrates the dual opportunity of either imposing a new order or extending an existing order. I agree with the Bill and I am against what is said in the Wootton Report. As this is a new system and it concerns an important matter, it should be treated as such.
  I am glad that the Home Secretary had something to say about the probation service. I yield to no one in my admiration of it. However, I should like to feel that it is as closely integrated as possible with the rest of the services dealing with the treatment of offenders. At a time when the prison service is slowly lifting itself out of the rôle of simply locking people up and then unlocking the doors and adopting a new attitude, it would be a great misfortune if it were to feel that a new and imaginative task was to be given to the probation service and it was to be responsible for carrying out the other and less rewarding tasks. It would create a division between the two.
  I recognise the reasons which led the Wootton Committee to turn down the idea of the prison service handling this, but I should like to see us develop over a period of years a situation in which the prison service and probation service grow closer together. I know that this suggestion may cause some controversy—but then, why not? I should like to see the two services grow closer together instead of being further and further apart. They have been moving in that direction; some members of the probation service have been working inside prisons. I welcome that. Anything which could bring the two services closer together so that the treatment of an offender is regarded as one from the moment of conviction to the moment of his finishing with the law in any capacity would, I believe, be
  986
  of benefit both to the services and to the offender.
  The probation service, if it is to have these tasks thrown on it, must be treated with generosity, and I was glad to hear what the Home Secretary said. The whole essence of the Bill in practice will mean allocation of sufficient resources to enable the job to be done.
  We welcome the fact that the Bill gives some recognition to the victim of crime. That is in the proposals for compensation in Clauses 1 to 9. This principle that the victim of crime is recognised will be widely accepted. The Howard League for Penal Reform and N.A.C.R.O., the National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders, say:
  "It is simple justice that offenders should not benefit from the proceedings of their crimes."
  My doubts are not about the principle but the practicability of it. I shall not trouble the House with it now, but this will be developed in Committee. As regards the provisions for bankruptcy orders, this will be largely window dressing, I am afraid. I doubt very much whether there will be much in this matter of criminal bankruptcy, or that it will have more than a cosmetic effect.
  On the question of the firearms provisions, I have a feeling that this is what I would call a cosmetic provision, that the maximum sentence for the use of firearms is increased. During the lifetime of the Labour Government the maximum was increased for certain offences to 14 years. I should be interested to know whether the Under-Secretary could tell us how many sentences of 14 years have been passed since that provision was introduced. I think there have been very few. I doubt whether the proposal to change 14 years' imprisonment to a life sentence will make very much difference, and, frankly, this is what I would call a cosmetic proposal rather than one which will be of real significance in the fight we are conducting in this matter.
  As regards suspended sentence, dissatisfaction with that has been growing. I think the Bill is moving in the right direction. I was interested in the figures in page 5 of the Wootton Report, which points out that after the introduction of suspended sentences the number of people who were given fines dropped

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  rapidly. In other words, in 1967 those fines amounted to 21 per cent. of the whole of those convicted of indictable offences; in 1968 they were 13 per cent.; and in 1969, 13 per cent. A reasonable deduction from this, though no one can prove it, is that the courts have used the suspended sentence not only to scale down prison sentences but also to scale up fines, as it were, and, as it were, have said, "If it is a choice of imposing a fine or a suspended sentence we will impose a suspended sentence." They have upgraded the penalty, in my view, against the intentions of Parliament, because that was not the intention when the suspended sentence was introduced. Though nobody can prove this, it seems likely from this drastic fall in the number of fines imposed. I agree entirely that in the future this should be optional instead of obligatory. We shall have to watch and see the result. In 1967 nobody could foretell what was likely to arise. Did the right hon. and learned Gentleman? We must give him full credit if that is the case.
  Sir David Renton: I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that a number of my hon. Friends and I pointed out this likelihood at the time when that Bill was going through.
  Mr. Callaghan: I am very glad to be able to pay tribute to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, then. It is a very good thing when one can say "I told you so", provided one can say it in the nice way that he has said it.
  We shall have to watch to see the result of this, but I hope that the suspended sentence will be used with discretion. I certainly hope that there will not be a drop in its use. Coupled with supervision orders it would have some effect.
  There is a number of Committee points which we shall want to raise. For instance, I am not at all sure about this driving disqualification in Clause 23. It is an arguable one, and I think some of my hon. Friends and hon. Gentlemen opposite also will want an opportunity to discuss that.
  On Clause 10, I am not at all sure what effect we shall get when the courts are free to pass sentences of less than six months.
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  On Clause 38 we shall want to discuss the question of bail hostels. This is a welcome provision, to provide for bail hostels along with day training centres. There has been growing dissatisfaction with the present system of bail. I have not time to discuss it this afternoon, except to say that when the Home Secretary says that in his view the fundamental principle is that the process of trial should be efficient I would add to that "and speedy". I believe it is the lack of speed in dealing with a number of cases which has resulted in some of the disquiet which now exists about the bail provisions. I myself would much prefer that justice should be speedy rather than that there should be people out on bail for very long periods, though I think there is a case for saying that the provision of the bail hostels under the Bill will do a great deal to help. The Cobden Trust Report was very valuable on this matter.
  The Bill, perhaps naturally, has nothing to say about the fundamental causes of crime and the treatment of the hardened prisoner. The Home Secretary told us what his philosophy was about it, and here I must say that I think the Conservative Party has let us down on this in view of all the speeches made by Lord Hailsham about the fundamental causes of crime and all the rest of it, because there is absolutely no new thinking in this Bill to carry us forward, despite all the promises and undertakings which we were given about the purpose of imprisonment and everything else.
  What we do know, and it is on this that the House and others outside must concentrate, is that 50 per cent. of men sentenced at the present time for 18 months or longer—half of them—are re-convicted within two years of their release. If we take the young men released from borstal who had previous experience of juvenile institutions, the percentage of them reconvicted within a period of three years is 80 per cent. to 85 per cent. Of what value is borstal and prison? What valuable purpose is it serving? Is it, perhaps, a deterrent? Apparently not. Has rehabilitation value? The figures do not seem to bear that out. Has restitution? Obviously not. These are fundamental questions which concern me. I do not pretend to know

  989
  the answers, but it is to these more than to anything else that we should be directing our minds now.
  I know that research is going on. Perhaps it is a long, painful process. We have an identikit picture of the average criminal in this country. He is male; he is young—probably under 20; he has been in trouble since he was a child; he lives in a large city; he has a poor education; he comes from a broken home. The Home Secretary told us that the absence of family discipline and perhaps the effects of war are responsible for aggressive instincts breaking out. We do know that many of these people have no decent environment, that they have no places to play in, that they need decent education, and that there is a need for ensuring that the centres of our cities, which are spawning grounds of crime, are torn out and rebuilt. These things are important, and whatever we know or do not know about the causes of crime we are all aware of where they can be found. The picture I have given is a statistical one which can be made up by selecting any group of statistics.
  It is an open question that the sentence of the court has less impact on the future behaviour of a criminal than his own past record. Despite the fact that a large Royal Commission foundered, I hanker after an inquiry into the purposes and the rôle of imprisonment and the extent to which it can be integrated elsewhere. The Royal Commission foundered because people could not agree on these basic questions. Perhaps we should make another start some time. I know that research is going on, and it may be that the research should be carried a little further before we ask these questions at large.
  If this modest Bill is to succeed, more resources and more manpower must be devoted to it. It will be money well spent; of that I am sure. Indeed, it may be offset against prison expenditure. At a time when we read that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is saying to the nationalised industries, "Spend, spend", perhaps he could turn his attention to the Home Secretary and say to him, "Spend, spend". Perhaps we could then get on with these schemes and get more institutions built and modernised.
  5.1 p.m.
  Sir David Renton: A very small number of us must have a nostalgic feeling of having been here before. This is the fourth Criminal Justice Bill since the war. Like its predecessors in 1948, 1961 and 1967, it deals mainly with penal reform, and will, we hope, be considered in a bipartisan way, in spite of the efforts of the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) to stir up a bit of party feeling about the zeal displayed by us—
  Mr. Callaghan: I hope the right hon. and learned Gentleman does not think I was really trying. If I had been, I should have been a lot worse than that.
  Sir D. Renton: The right hon. Gentleman's speech would have been more constructive if he had made no attempt at all in that respect.
  The other thing which the Bill has in common with its predecessors is that it is experimental. It was hoped that all three of the previous Acts would reduce crime, reduce the prison population and lead to the reform and rehabilitation of offenders but, unhappily, those hopes have not been fulfilled. Since 1948, crime has more than doubled and so has the prison population.
  In considering whether this Bill will succeed where its predecessors failed, we need to discover what has gone wrong under the present law. As the only Member of the House now who served on the Standing Committees on all the three previous Bills and piloted one of them through Standing Committee, I must accept my share of responsibility for what went wrong.
  The Widgery and Wootton Reports have made great contributions to the subject in the limited aspects with which they deal, but if the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East was really trying to draw attention to the thinking that had gone on before the Bill was published, he might have referred to the report of the committee presided over by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Fylde (Mr. Gardner), which I think is the best recent analysis of the problem as a whole.
  What will distinguish the discussion on this Bill from previous discussions is doubt about the value of prison as such.

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  Because of the lack of alternatives, we have necessarily had to rely on prison to a tremendous extent, but the clear intention stated by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary today is that we should try somehow to get away from such great reliance upon it. The report of the Committee of the Society of Lawyers, over which my hon. and learned Friend presided, on page 7 says this:
  "It seems that at present many men and women are being sent to prison unnecessarily."
  One of Her Majesty's Queen Bench judges, however, went much further than that on 13th September, when Mr. Justice Lawton said:
  "Loss of liberty is an inappropriate, useless and expensive sanction for approximately three-quarters of those who now find themselves in custody."
  I doubt whether any hon. Member will go so far as to say that three-quarters of those in custody should not be there. I should think it is perhaps more like one-third, but I am sure that Mr. Justice Lawton is right in condemning the excessive use of custodial treatment.
  As to deterrence, prison certainly does not seem to deter people from crime these days, if it ever did. Most of them regard prison as a risk worth taking in the hope of the reward they will get from their crime. That is all that deterrence can be said to amount to.
  As has been said both by the Home Secretary and by the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East, the prisons are so overcrowded that reform and rehabilitation on a large enough scale are impossible.
  What then should be done? I agree with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary that we can distinguish crimes of serious violence from the general run of crime against property. There must be stiff prison sentences for crimes of serious violence plus compensation for the victims, and I naturally welcome Clause 1 of the Bill. As to other crimes, there is no doubt that prison has been overdone, and the fault lies partly in the interpretation which the courts, perhaps with good reason, have placed upon the existing laws.
  As to criminal offences other than violence, we must make a clear distinction between three types of offender, especially if they are still young and by
  992
  "young" I mean under 25. In the first category are the serious criminals who have chosen that way of life or have become so caught up in crime that they cannot disentangle themselves from it. In the second category are young people who commit even quite serious offences, either out of a misguided sense of bravado or to relieve boredom, or for both those reasons, but who do not think of themselves as serious criminals, and it takes time before they enter that category. In the third category, which is very numerous in the run of cases which come to quarter sessions at present but which will become before the Crown Courts in future, are the young people who are psychologically disturbed, perhaps only temporarily, the "mixed-up" products of broken homes and problem families, children who have been either rejected or, paradoxically, over-indulged by their parents.
  In the second and third of those categories are a high proportion of all young offenders. There is a danger of their graduating through detention and borstal to prison and thus becoming permanent additions to our criminal population and thus entering the first category of those who get hooked on crime. We must bear in mind the limitations of borstal, because the borstal success rate is now down to only 30 per cent.—and that was not the fault of the Tory Government. This means that it is vital to deal with these young criminals by probation and in other ways which the Bill envisages.
  My right hon. Friend has emphasised that community centres and day training centres are to be only experimental. But this experiment must succeed; it must pass from experiment to establishment as soon as possible. I hope that there will not be too gingerly an approach to this experiment, and I hope that it will develop.
  I should like now to consider the situation of the first category offenders, those who are rightly described as serious criminals. We must not regard them as being beyond redemption. Many started on crime when they were very young, perhaps having come from families with criminal records and having grown up thinking that crime was a natural way of life. They may have gone to approved school by the age of 14 and afterwards spent most of their lives in penal institutions. In spite of their further offences

  993
  it is vital for the courts—and only the courts can do it—to try to get them "unhooked" from crime while they are still young enough for that to be possible. I believe the courts should adopt this course even if it means taking calculated risks by putting them on probation or giving suspended sentences.
  Under the present law a further offence of any seriousness committed during probation normally means a custodial sentence when the offender is brought before the court again. I suggest this practice should be reconsidered. Let us take the example of a man of 22 with a bad record, having been in and out of custody since childhood. Then when placed on probation at 22, let us assume he goes straight and for the first time since he was 12 years of age commits no crime for a year. In the eyes of the probation officer, and to anybody else who thinks about the matter, that would be regarded as success and the beginning of a process of de-escalation. However, under the present law and practice when the man comes back to the court, in spite of that success, because he has committed a further offence he must be given a custodial sentence in nearly all cases. Therefore, any further success cannot be achieved and the last hope of his redemption is destroyed, even if the probation officer has recommended that probation should continue.
  Similarly, when a further crime is committed during a suspended sentence, instead of merely applying the suspended sentence automatically and adding a sentence for the further offence, the court should have power and be encouraged to take a fresh stocktaking of the position which has arisen and should be empowered to take a reasonable chance. For this reason I greatly welcome Clause 13, which I regard as the most important Clause in the Bill. It says that the court shall not send anybody—even a person over the age of 21—to prison if there is any other suitable way of dealing with him and that this should apply even when there has been a suspended sentence.
  There will always be people who complain that a court has dealt too softly with an offender in practising the art of redemption. Having once had my own house burgled, I understand such an attitude, but we must make up our minds and ask the public to make up its mind.
  994
  We can either practise the art of redemption with some hope of reducing the criminal population and thereby eventually reducing crime, or we can treat them "tough and rough" with the certainly of adding to the prison population and intensifying the crime rate. I shall never forget the words of Mr. Chuter Ede in 1948, when he said that we must make the punishment fit not only the crime but the offender. That is the vital test. I hope, however, the victims of crime will feel better about the art of redemption when they know about the improved power to order compensation which is contained in the early Clauses of the Bill.
  I welcome the Bill mainly because it will reduce the number of offenders sent to prison and borstal and increase the prospects of their redemption. I hope that in Committee the ways in which the courts have interpreted their powers under the present law will be examined and rectified where necessary.
  5.16 p.m.
  Mr. Edmund Dell: The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary asked us to welcome the Bill and there is much in the Bill which I, as a layman, am prepared to welcome. I am prepared to do so in the non-partisan spirit in which the right hon. Gentleman said we should consider the Bill.
  When my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) made certain remarks which the Home Secretary regarded as partisan, I believe he was merely referring to the partisan way in which the Conservative Party treated the subject before the last election. This subject should not be treated in such a way, and I shall be happy to see the Bill treated in Committee in a non-partisan spirit.
  The great point made by my right hon. Friend the former Home Secretary was the need for much greater resources to be devoted to this area than are devoted to it at present.
  My main reason for intervening this afternoon is to express some concern at the lack of any adequate evidential basis for some of the policy set out in the Bill. Some of the provisions are based on various reports, including the Widgery and Wootton Reports, but there are aspects of policy dealt with in the Bill

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  on which apparently there has been little evidence.
  The Home Secretary said the Bill is often experimental, and there have been experiments in the past. However, we seem to know very little more today about these experiments than we did when they were originally initiated.
  Let us take as an example suspended sentences. On what evidence have the Government acted and what is the reasoning behind the Bill's provisions on this subject? I am not criticising the Government for lack of evidence on this subject. Indeed, if there is to be any criticism on the ground of lack of evidence my own right hon. Friends must share in the criticism because it was they who initiated the experiment of suspended sentences.
  The decision in 1967 to make a revolutionary change by introducing suspended sentences was widely welcomed. There was criticism of this experiment from certain hon. Members in this House, among them Sir John Hobson, and also from the National Association of Probation Officers which had many pertinent observations to make. I believe that too little has been done to assess the operation of this provision. No doubt there are many impressions about its operation but there is little by way of hard fact one can examine. The mandatory provision contained in Section 39(3) of the Criminal Justice Act, 1967, was highly controversial and was criticised at the time by the present Under-Secretary, but the then Home Secretary my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) stuck to his guns and introduced the mandatory provision. However, since that time little has been done other than to gather impressions to study the actual operation of this provision. Now under the Bill it is to be abolished. But we know little more about its actual operation than could have been forecast in 1967.
  I should like to ask a few questions on which it would have been nice to have some guidance. I recently asked the Under-Secretary a Question about suspended sentences, and the Under-Secretary replied to say that they were a useful addition to the means of disposal currently available. But, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff,
  996
  South-East pointed out, the suspended sentence has been used widely not in place of immediate imprisonment but in place of probation and fines.
  In one of the answers that I was given on Thursday of last week, I was told that in only about two-fifths to three-fifths of cases in which suspended sentences were imposed had they been imposed in place of what before 1968 would have been sentences of immediate imprisonment. That suggests that in many cases suspended sentences have been used instead of probation or fines.
  I hope that we shall be told what assessment the Home Office has made of the use of suspended sentences instead of probation or fines. I hope, too, that we shall be told whether it is a practice that the Home Office wishes to stop. If it is, does the Home Office think that the abolition of the mandatory provision will have that effect? My right hon. Friend appeared to believe that the abolition of the mandatory provision would have that effect. If the Government take the same view, I should like to know why.
  I hope that we shall be told what studies are being made of the efficacy of suspended sentences as a means of disposal. The Home Secretary referred to the importance of deterrence. What estimate has the Home Office made of the deterrent effect of the suspended sentence as compared with other means of disposal? We all know the publication "The Sentence of the Court". In Tables 4 and 5 there is an attempt to assess the deterrent effect of various penalties in relation to each other. Is similar work being done in relation to the suspended sentence? In the Appendix to the 1970 Prison Report on research projects currently in being, there is no indication that any work on this is being done.
  Still on this point about the efficacy or deterrent effect of suspended sentences, on Thursday of last week I asked what happens to people who are reconvicted and therefore become liable to the implementation of their suspended sentences? I was given various figures showing what has happened in that respect up to 31st December, 1970. It is interesting that the reconviction figures given do not include people whose further offences resulted in discharges or probation orders. I understand that this is because, technically, they are not convictions for the

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  purposes of this provision of the Criminal Justice Act, 1967. What is more, the figures do not include those whose further offences resulted in borstal, I understand because of the provisions of Section 39(8) of the 1967 Act.
  I was told that figures for these categories were not available. Why are not they available? Are they believed to be negligible? What is the size of the group about which, apparently, the Home Office cannot tell us? Surely it is essential that figures of this sort should be available to provide evidence for judging the efficacy and deterrent effect of the suspended sentence.
  I turn to another matter about which we know too little after three years of the existence of the suspended sentence. What assessment has been made of the effect of the suspended sentence on the size of the prison population and the duration of sentences of imprisonment served? Evidently we have a judgment on the size of the prison population. It is that there are various contradictory effects, or effects working in different directions, and, as a result, the size of the prison population today is much the same as it would have been if suspended sentences had not been introduced.
  In an answer to me on Thursday of last week, the Under-Secretary made an interesting remark which is to be welcomed. He said:
  "There is some reason to believe that, although the reconviction rate has not fallen, there has recently been some reduction in the proportion of cases in which suspended sentences are later enforced with a corresponding effect on the size of the prison population."
  That development is to be welcomed. In this respect, at any rate, apparently the Home Office has been able to make an estimate.
  What about the duration of prison sentences served? Paragraph 11 of the Prison Report, 1970, says that suspended sentences affected
  "… the average length of the effective sentence being served."
  In view of that, modestly, I asked the Home Secretary what that effect had been. The Under-Secretary replied:
  "It is not possible to calculate the effect of suspended sentences on the duration of prison sentences served."
  We are not able to calculate it. We are not even able to estimate it. Neverthe-
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  less, the evidence suggests that suspended sentences have increased the duration of sentences served.
  I come now to a few points about the mandatory provision which is now to be abolished because, it is said, it has not proved satisfactory. Once again, we know far too little about the operation of Section 39(3) of the 1967 Act. No doubt there are many impressions. However, there seems to be little hard fact. As the Under-Secretary said in an answer to me:
  "The available statistical information does not separately identify offenders to whom any of these conditions apply or those cases where a court suspends a sentence of imprisonment only because of the requirements of the subsection."—[OFFCIAL REPORT, 18th November, 1971; Vol. 826, c. 186–8.]
  In other words, we do not know in any measurable way what is the effect of this provision.
  Certain questions arise from the abolition of the mandatory provision. In the view of the Home Office, what will be the effect on prison receptions of the repeal of the subsection? The Home Secretary has emphasised the importance of keeping down the prison population. But surely the initial effect of abolishing the mandatory provision must be an increase in receptions into prison. As far as one can see, it could be a very substantial increase.
  The Home Secretary has said that in due course the abolition of the mandatory provision should reduce the prison population. Again, it is fair to ask on what sort of information the Home Office is working.
  Instead of the mandatory provision, we are to have Clause 13 of the Bill. The First Offenders Act, 1958, did in respect of first offenders what Clause 13 does over a wider area. Despite the effect of that Act on the imprisonment of first offenders, the figures seem to show that the mandatory provision has caused a further reduction in the imprisonment of first offenders. Thus, as far as one can assess these things, there is a difference between the effectiveness of the exhortation contained in the First Offenders Act, 1958, and the mandatory provision of the Criminal Justice Act, 1967. Does the Home Office see anything wrong in this further reduction in the imprisonment of first offenders, and should not the mandatory provision be kept, if only for first

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  offenders? I should be glad to hear the views of the Home Office.
  By this Bill, we shall be introducing community service orders. I welcome this proposal; indeed, I welcome all the aspects of the Bill which promote the treatment of offenders in the community. However, as the Wootton Committee recommended, I hope that there will be some examination made of how the provision actually operates, especially the extent to which it is used on people who would otherwise go to prison.
  There is much in the Bill that I welcome. I hope that it will be dealt with in Committee on an entirely non-partisan basis. I hope, too, that we shall know a great deal more four years after the initiation of the Home Secretary's new experiments than we do today, four years after the initiation of suspended sentences in 1968.
  5.30 p.m.
  Mr. Nicholas Winterton: I thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to catch your eye in this most important debate so that I may make my first contribution to the sea of words which ebb and flow in this famous and illustrious Chamber, but from which so much of history has taken her seed.
  I must pay tribute to my predecessor at Macclesfield, Sir Arthur Vere Harvey, now Lord Harvey of Prestbury, who was a Member of this House for 26 years. Lord Harvey was respected and liked right across political barriers in both my constituency, which was his, and the House of Commons. I can say, without reservation, that I am proud to follow him as the representative for Macclesfield.
  Why have I decided to make my first speech in the House on the Criminal Justice Bill? Because it is one of the major responsibilities of any Government to build up and maintain effective barriers of law and order within which the community can live, and live in freedom. It is not just a political commitment, but a moral commitment. However, in my opinion, where crime and punishment are concerned, for perhaps two decades successive Governments have allowed idealistic compassion to blind their eyes to reality. For whom do they show this compassion—the criminal or the victim?
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  Too often I fear that it is the criminal about whom they are concerned. The victim must fend for himself or herself.
  Prisons are gradually being converted into what can only be described as recreation centres. Prison warders are the victims of softness to prisoners. The last Socialist Government abolished the birch for violent attacks by prisoners on warders, leaving warders defenceless. When asked what punishment remained to deter them, the then Home Secretary gave the absurd answer, "Loss of liberty". Is it any wonder that prison officers complain that they are being used as guineapigs in a dangerous social experiment with nothing more effective than unproven theories for protection?
  Is it any wonder that men and women throughout the country are growing more concerned about the increasing breakdown in law and order?
  What are the facts? First, let us take crimes of violence in three different years: 1950, 1960 and 1970. In 1950 there was a total of 6,249 crimes of violence, representing 141·96 per million of the population. In 1960 this had more than doubled. There were 15,759 crimes of violence, representing 344·27 per million of the population. In 1970 the figure had more than doubled again. There were 41,088 crimes of violence, representing 838·74 per million of the population. My figures refer to indictable offences known to the police in England and Wales.
  Let us be a little more specific and deal with robbery with violence. In 1950 there were 93,860 offences, representing 2,132·21 per million of the population. In 1960 there were 153,392 offences, representing 3,351 per million of the population. In 1970 there were 437,748 offences, representing 8,935·82 per million of the population.
  That shows a tremendous rate of increase in crimes about which so many people are concerned. But let us come right up to date. In the first six months of 1971 the number of crimes of violence known to the police was 21,307, an increase of 13·4 per cent. over the first six months of 1970. The number of offences of robbery with violence was 237,982, an increase of only 3·1 per cent., I am glad to say, over the same period in 1970.

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  Our "radical" legal legislators have had a blind preoccupation with punishing or treating criminals rather than preventing or deterring crimes out of which criminals are created and the resultant growing burden of incarceration and training which becomes more costly and sophisticated the more liberal our laws become.
  We have allowed the purveyors of filth and pornography to degrade human dignity. Even when a courageous judge deals out just punishment to fit the offence, his good work is undone on appeal.
  We have allowed trendy propagandists to teach us that notions of discipline and self-discipline are old-fashioned in the home, in school, and in personal relationships between man and woman. That has already been mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
  We have allowed drugs to undermine the personal responsibility of too many of our young people, too often failing to appreciate the depth of the problem and failing to explain the full horrors of drugs.
  We have allowed the very meaning of the word "freedom" to be perverted. In 1969 this House, on a free vote, abolished capital punishment some year or so before the five-year experimental period was complete, although—I say this with emphasis—a substantial majority of the people of this country wanted capital punishment retained. Perhaps many of those who voted for the abolition of the deterrent were those who complained most bitterly in this House in the recent Common Market debate that we could not take a decision to enter the Community when a majority of the British people opposed entry. That is an interesting comparison: one a political issue and the other a moral issue. Which is more important to this House?
  I would support the reintroduction of the ultimate deterrent for three categories of murder: the murder of police officers, the murder of prison officers and murder resulting from armed robbery. The recent tragic deaths of a number of police officers has once again focussed public attention on the issue of capital punishment as a deterrent to violent crime.
  I am aware that much propaganda has been made by the abolitionists of the
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  figures supplied by the Home Office on the rate of murder in recent years. We are told, with some pride, that the rate has remained constant or even fallen a little. This particular myth, for that is what it is, has been perpetrated by the Home Office system of recording and adjusting the figures for murder, such adjustments not having been made in the past. Owing to the Homicide Act, 1957, many crimes, which in 1956 would have been murder, now fall to be entered as manslaughter, so the combined rate gives a truer indication of the rise.
  According to Chief Inspector Colin Greenwood of the West Yorkshire Constabulary, the murder rate has at least doubled and the combined murder and manslaughter rate has quadrupled—facts which I believe are well hidden in official statistics. I ask this House to let the public have all the facts.
  The Conservative Party has openly stated that the protection of the individual citizen is a prime duty of government and that urgent action is needed to check the serious rise in crime and violence. I am aware that already, in just 18 months in Government, the police and probation services have received large pay increases and have substantially increased their strength.
  I am aware that the Courts Act has brought a major reform of the machinery of justice. I know that the law against vandalism has been strengthened—a long overdue reform—and that the powers of courts to order offenders to pay compensation to their victims have been improved by the Criminal Damage Act 1971.
  I welcome the main provisions of this Criminal Justice Bill, which will increase the penalty for possessing a firearm with intent to endanger life, will change the present system of suspended sentences—which has been a bonanza of encouragement to petty offenders—will make the criminal compensate his victim to prove that crime does not pay, and further in thin direction, will, where appropriate, bankrupt criminals who would otherwise benefit from the proceeds of large-scale crime. There must be no more enforced holidays with remission, followed by an easy life on the proceeds of crime.
  Proposals in the Bill will compel people guilty of certain crimes to give community service, and much has been said

  1003
  about that this afternoon. This is a particularly valuable proposal, as it will give offenders the opportunity of doing useful work. It will give them the self-respect of knowing that they have paid for their crimes and perhaps, also, it will breed a sense of social responsibility.
  My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has on occasions—and he did so again this afternoon—expressed concern about the terrifying proportion of crimes committed by young people in their 'teens. As the chairman of a county youth service committee, having in the course of my responsibility met many young people, I suggest to my right hon. Friend and his colleagues in the Cabinet that they should consider bringing in a scheme to offer all young people leaving school, and before they seek employment or go on to college or university, a 12-to 18-month period of voluntary national service, in the social services, in the hospitals, in agriculture, in forestry, on environmental and amenity projects, in voluntary service overseas, or even in the Forces. Give young people the opportunity to serve, and they will accept the responsibility. With discipline, responsibility and a purpose in life we could see a great change in the crime rate among young people in Great Britain.
  It is said that a country gets the laws it deserves. Once we are prepared to stop the rot in our society and stand up and defend the traditional and moral values vital to the health of our country, then we shall have a right to demand, as I feel we must, stiffer punishments for those crimes which our society can never tolerate. Although, in the words of William Pitt, Earl of Chatham,
  "The atrocious crime of being a young man … I shall neither attempt to palliate nor deny",
  I urge the House to take a sharper sword to crime.
  5.43 p.m.
  Mr. Edward Lyons: I congratulate the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) on so forcefully delivered a maiden speech. The hon. Gentleman suceeds a man who was respected on both sides of the House, and who was influential in the counsels of the Conservative Party. We have seen today that the traditional view of the Conser-
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  vative Party is going to find forceful, forthright and courageous expression from the new hon. Member, and I am sure that everyone looks forward to hearing those views, even though not always agreeing with them. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will forgive me if, on this occasion, I do not follow him down some of the more contentious avenues which he explored.
  This is a Bill of lost opportunities. It is a Bill which contains interesting experiments, which I welcome, but, as has been said so well by my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), we are faced with an exploding prison population, with a prison building programme which signally fails to keep up with that population trend, and with a growing feeling among members of the judiciary that, in relation to the inadequates with so many of whom they have to deal, prison serves no purpose other than to keep them away from the possibility of crime when they are inside prison. It does not seem to deter them from going back to the same sort of crime when they are released, and one wonders whether they are able to cope with the ordinary demands of life.
  What does the Bill do in terms of reducing the prison population? One can argue that day training orders and community service orders will have an effect in effecting a reduction, but when one looks at some of the other measures a rather different picture emerges.
  First, there is the restoration of the short sentence, so we are once again to have many people in prison serving sentences of up to six months. Second—and this is a good provision—the Bill says that supervision orders should be linked to suspended sentences. That is very good for those who were going to get suspended sentences anyway. But there will be a great temptation for judges, in cases where previously they would have given probation, to impose a suspended sentence, because they will be able to impose it in conjunction with a supervision order which will be administered by the probation service. Although where probation is appropriate it can be said that judges should only order probation, in fact they will use the double deterrent of a suspended sentence with a probation supervision order, which will

  1005
  mean that more people than ever will be given suspended sentences. As inadequates fail to respond to the threat gesture which constitutes a suspended sentence, more of them will return to the courts and the suspended sentences will be brought into effect.
  When one talks about the failure of suspended sentences, one is talking about the failure of the judiciary. Suspended sentences have been criticised because, in order to deter the repetition of an offence, judges have imposed a higher sentence than they would have imposed had they been ordering a sentence to take effect immediately. They have done so to prevent the person concerned from committing another offence.
  About 12 months later somebody given a suspended sentence turns up in a court in another part of the United Kingdom. He has hanging over him a suspended sentence of two years, but had he gone to prison at the time of the original offence he would have been sentenced to perhaps only nine months imprisonment. The new court almost always imposes the old sentence of two years, and adds to it something for the more recent offence, say six months, or nine months, which means that the man goes to prison for a longer period than he would have done if the suspended sentence had not existed. The fault lies with the judiciary which has been unable to resist the temptation of imposing a longer sentence than they ought to have imposed, in the hope that it would never be made effective.
  Although the suspended sentence is being tinkered with in the Bill, it is not being tinkered with in relation to people aged between 17 and 21. It may surprise some hon. Members to learn that a suspended sentence of more than six months and less than three years cannot be imposed on people aged between 17 and 21, unless they have been to borstal already, in which case different rules are applied. That means that a person aged 19 cannot be given a suspended sentence of nine months or 12 months.
  A few months ago I introduced a Bill, which was supported by hon. Members on both sides, to alter the rule embodied in Section 3 of the 1961 Criminal Justice Act which embodies this fetter on sentences. I was told then in a speech as able as always by the Under-Secretary
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  of State that we must not have piecemeal legislation or deal with the law regarding youthful offenders in small packages. That Bill fell. But this Bill contains items like day training and community service. What is that but dealing with youthful offenders as well as older offenders?
  Yet we still have not touched in this Bill on the problem which so annoys the judiciary—the inability to give sentences fitting the crime for people over 17 and under 21. The result, as has been said by many people, is that, when the courts feel that imprisonment is required and that borstal is no use, because of this provision, they give three years where they would have given 18 months—yet we are talking about reducing the prison population. This is not just to the accused and it imposes additional strains on the prison.
  So, although artificial fetters have been reduced in this Bill by providing for short sentences in future, if that is a good thing, at the same time this other artificial fetter is retained. The smaller the range of method we permit our judiciary in dealing with young offenders, the more injustice there is likely to be and the greater the rate of return to crime. So the Bill has missed the opportunity to grasp that problem.
  But there is another way in which our prisons are filled. If a person of no fixed abode is committed on a fairly trivial offence, he is not given bail, so he goes to prison. His trial may be months ahead and if he cannot find any surety, he may spend months in prison. The Bill does not deal with that. There is a reference to bail hostels, but it is not clear what they will do in this connection. Some people of no fixed abode, who are kept in prison for months without being dealt with by a court, may be acquitted or only fined or put on probation or given a suspended sentence at the end of the day. Yet they have helped to fill the prisons.
  Nor does the Bill deal with the effect of disqualification. Over the years, it has been mandatory to impose disqualification for certain offences. Large numbers of people are so addicted to motor cars that, whatever the penalty—be it disqualification or imprisonment—they will go back to driving a car the moment that they are at liberty. Each time they did it

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  they used to be disqualified for a further period. Some people are disqualified until well into the twenty-first century. I know of one such case in the last day or two.
  These people come before a court for driving while disqualified. Because disqualification is becoming purposeless as a deterrent, they are sent to prison. They come out and do it again and are sent back to prison. They work honestly, they do not go to the State for social security, they are only sometimes dishonest—but they will drive motor cars. They usually drive them safely and with competence, but they are committing an offence.
  The courts should have power when dealing with such offences to remit large accrued sentences of disqualification going on for years and years. Since last year, those compulsory disqualifications have been made discretionary, so with this sort of person, the courts are not imposing fresh disqualifications—but they have no power to remit all the other disqualifications. As a result, otherwise honest people with this addiction are going to prison year after year to work off offences of driving while disqualified.
  There is one more small way to keep people out of prison. It may not be known to all hon. Members but, when a number of people are charged together, say in a long fraud case, if some plead guilty and some do not, those who plead guilty are kept in custody until the end of the trial of those who plead not guilty. As a result, the person who pleads guilty—he is often a minnow who knows that he will only be fined or given a small sentence and that it is therefore not worth his while brazening it out over a few weeks—is not sentenced until the end of the trial—
  Mr. David Weitzman indicated dissent.
  Mr. Lyons: I will hear the contrary view if I am wrong, but this is my belief. At the end of a long trial, such a man is then sent home with a fine or similar punishment. He should not be kept in custody in the first place. There should be ample power to send such a person home until the time comes for him to be dealt with.
  Mr. Carlisle: I know that the hon. Member does not wish to make a bad
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  point. Surely it is right that the court has complete discretion in these matters. There is no statutory provision to prevent the court giving bail to someone who has pleaded guilty. In the circumstances which the hon. Gentleman has mentioned, this surely happens. What is the legislative programme which the hon. Gentleman suggests we are failing to implement?
  Mr. Lyons: I am obliged to the hon. and learned Gentleman. If I am wrong I gladly withdraw. But I have observed this happening. If it happens, either there is some statutory sanction or the courts are keeping these people inside because they do not direct their minds to the problem or it is seen as some sort of intermediate punishment to teach that man a lesson before he is fined at the end of the case. But certainly it happens. If it has no sanction, then of course I do not press the point.
  There are a number of matters which the Bill does not deal with—in particular, bail and the right way to handle disqualification. When it does mention disqualification, it does so to introduce what may be a harmful provision. We now have a provision in the Bill which says that, where a person uses a car or is involved with a car in a criminal offence, he may be disqualified as well as being sentenced in other ways for the offence. That sounds very good, but one has to bear in mind that, where the person disqualified is a lawless person, he is liable to be back in court thereafter for a succession of driving while disqualified offences. We are creating a situation which will drive people back to prison. It is doubtful that that is wise.
  On the face of it, it is an excellent idea to enable the judges in criminal cases to award compensation for personal injury. But of course it must be said that one can get the compensation in the civil courts and there is also the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board. That board awards damages out of State coffers, whereas the idea of the trial judge doing it is to take the money from the pocket of the wrongdoer.
  Has any thought been given to enabling the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board to make an order against a convicted person? After all, the board is

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  the body which investigates the injury and decides what the compensation should be. Suppose the judge makes a quick assessment of the injury suffered. He may be far out. In making that assessment will he have medical evidence? It is often highly disputed what the effect of an accident is in terms of health. Doctors are called on both sides. It seems that we are saying in the Bill that a sort of rough guess should be made by the judge, perhaps based on the evidence in the trial.
  To the extent that a judge may do this, he will be liable to reduce an award of costs or a fine, so that in the end it will cost the State money. What will happen if the victim is awarded, say, £700 by a higher court but feels that he could probably have got a little more—not a great deal more but some more—by the alternative course? Will he bother to start proceedings, particularly if in the civil court he feels that he may have a legal aid contribution to make? He could go to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board, but will that body be influenced by an award of the judge at the trial?
  There will be different bodies assessing injury compensation perhaps by different yardsticks. It also seems odd that while the judge at the trial will award compensation in open court and the matter will be reported—a civil action will be reported in the same way—the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board will work in secrecy. Why should this distinction exist?
  Might it not be a good idea to let the board not only award compensation but also make an order against the convicted person? This would seem a more sensible way of proceeding.
  As far as I know, the board does not award compensation to dependants. If that is correct, this Measure does nothing to alter that situation, and the position still remains that if one kills one's victim, the dependants cannot be compensated. In other words, the judge of the criminal court cannot compensate the dependants of the victim.
  Might it not be useful to extend this new power of compensation in the criminal court so that dependants too can receive awards? Why should a man be able to avoid paying compensation if he
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  has ample funds? This applies both to murder and manslaughter. The answer may be a civil action, but by the time that is brought, the money may be gone.
  There is one other matter to which I must refer before resuming my seat, and I do not want to delay the House.
  Mr. Speaker: I remind the hon. Gentleman that he has already been speaking for 20 minutes.
  Mr. Lyons: I will deal with only one other point, Mr. Speaker. I apologise for delaying the House for this length of time.
  I welcome Clause 42, to which reference has not yet been made. I have been seeking to have this type of provision enacted since I came to Parliament in 1966 and I had a Ten-Minute Rule Bill on the subject last year.
  This provision says, in effect, that when a prison is closed, the State rather than the local authority shall have the proceeds of the sale of the land. I am delighted to note that this piece of nationalisation is being carried out by a Conservative Government. They are taking old prison sites from local authorities and handing them over to the State without compensation. In this respect alone we have a Socialist Conservative Government.
  6.4 p.m.
  Mr. W. F. Deedes: I echo the generous words used by the hon. Member for Bradford, East (Mr. Edward Lyons) in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) on his maiden speech. It was a most robust performance and he delivered his speech with great confidence. I wish with all my heart that I had had the courage to deliver a maiden speech like that when I made mine. I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend and assure him that we look forward to hearing many future contributions from him.
  Like the hon. Member for Bradford, East—though he did it more professionally—I wish to deal with only one aspect of the Bill and not to range over the wide spectrum of problems which confront us in considering this whole subject of crime.
  There are always dangers lurking in a Bill about which both sides of the House appear to find themselves in agreement,

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  and at the risk of rocking the boat—which in itself will make a change—I wish to address my remarks somewhat critically to one aspect wherein lurk certain dangers.
  Before doing so, however, I wish to make it clear that there are a number of other subjects about which, like the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), I should have liked to speak. He referred to the rising ratio of long-term prisoners in our prisons nowadays, and I agree that this will give rise to considerable problems. I would also have commented on what he said about the probation service. My right hon. Friend made some interesting remarks on this subject.
  But I will abandon that desire to discuss one aspect of the Bill which causes me the most anxiety. I refer to the whole question of reparation by the offender, to which the first part of the Bill refers. In discussing this subject I resume, as it were, at the point at which the hon. Member for Bradford, East left off.
  We are presented with a highly attractive concept which has been attracting the minds of penologists, criminologists, sociologists and lawyers for a long time. It is enshrined in some words used by the present Lord Chancellor when he was a Member of this House. When moving an Amendment to the last Criminal Justice Act he summed the matter up by referring to the "elementary principle of morality."
  Philosophically there is much to be said in its favour and it appears to fulfil our main object of seeking to reduce the prison population. However, if we are not to suffer much disappointment and, perhaps later, disillusionment, it is wise to dwell on some of the enormous administrative problems with which this wider proposition will confront us, and I will give some of the implications that have not yet fully emerged.
  What I am saying is no reflection on the Advisory Council on the Penal System, in whose Report it is made clear that the considerations are evenly balanced. Perhaps it would be wise to consider, first, what this Measure is likely to achieve. In doing so let us take a recent year. In that year there were some 750,000 offences of larceny, about one-third of which were cleared up. That
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  of course gives no clue to the number of criminals involved because many pleaded guilty to more than one offence. About one-fifth of the offences involved sums of under £1 and another one-fifth involved sums of under £5. Only one in 30 involved sums of over £100. Most of the thefts represented not cash but kind, and as we are aware, the sums received in cash by criminals for goods are always low in relation to their original value.
  It is clear, therefore, that the courts will face some valuation problems. I echo what the hon. Member for Bradford, East said in this respect because I am not clear what will happen to me if I prefer the shorter course of claiming insurance in the way he suggested. That will not be the only problem for the courts. It could be argued that it will be found difficult sometimes for the court to reconcile our present concept of justice for the offender with the desire to mitigate hardship to the victim. I will not say that there is a conflict here, but a conflict could arise that is fundamental to our present concept of justice.
  The court will also have to decide when compensation and custodial sentences can be properly combined and when the first should have precedence over the second. Shall we have compensation orders after release from a custodial sentence? That will present certain difficulties. In the case of the more serious offence involving larger sums, it seems that it will be difficult to avoid a custodial sentence. That will reduce the prospect of reparation.
  We know that prison industries are in no sort of gear today to enable a man to earn enough money to make any sort of reparation. Even if they were, it is questionable whether we ought to let the prisoner pay out with one hand what we put into his other. We must face this fact. It is important that people should realise this now, before they think that we have evolved a system for helping to provide reparation for victims of crime. We shall not produce any equitable system for reparation, because for some of the hardest hit reparations will prove the hardest to collect, and perhaps for some of the less hard hit it will not be nearly so difficult.
  I want to dwell more strongly on the administrative rather than the judicial

  1013
  problems. As the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East said of the men we are confronting—he was over-simplifying it a little—we begin with the small-time burglar, the larcenist and the theief. In most cases he has no fixed income, job or abode. He tends to live from hand to mouth. His possessions are very few. His ability to pay any kind of reparation is virtually non-existent. A system to collect from him would certainly be elaborate—dare I say, rather cumbersome? Yet I accept that it is from precisely this sort of man, who causes people loss or suffering in their small homes, that we most want to collect reparations. We must reckon also that, driven to pay a considerable part of it, this galère will be driven to fresh thefts.
  The bigger professional that my right hon. Friend has in mind presents problems of another kind. He, too, has few open assets. His car will be on hire purchase. His principal possessions will be lodged with associates or women friends. He is rarely caught with the proceeds on him because all his experience has taught him how to dispose of the loot. His money will be either in a false name or in a safe deposit. To wring reparations out of him, by bankruptcy or other means, will be a formidable task.
  Many professional criminals today dispose of large sums overseas, and that will involve a fresh dimension. This is a serious matter in assessing what additional powers we may need to carry out this proposal. If the police are required to chase the criminal's assets in addition to his loot, they will certainly need fresh powers to search premises, and to inspect the books and accounts of investment companies and banks, post offices, solicitors, building societies, betting shops, clubs and so on. They will have to examine the man's associates. We may even need to freeze certain accounts after the court has made an order. Shall we need to create a fresh offence of refusing to give the police information or assistance in these inquiries about the criminal's assets or of misleading the police in their inquiries?
  There are some in our midst who would not regard this line of country as an elementary principle of morality. They would be more likely to cry that we were in danger of rigging up a little of the police state. This is the moment for a strong word of warning that if this
  1014
  proposal is to be effective, the powers will have to be a little stronger than they are now. A great many people, some innocent, will be mixed up in this. For instance, in a simple case of a lorry hijacked with £50,000 worth of goods and the goods disposed of for £20,000 to a middle man, and thence to receivers, thence through other hands, some quasi innocent—the purchasers of cut-price drink, cigarettes and so on—that has all to be chased back, and we would then begin the process of reparation. I do not wish to make a mountain out of a molehill, but it is right to dwell on this.
  As for bankruptcy proceedings, these will be highly selective, in a sense, and almost an injustice. There are about 4,000 bankruptcy orders a year. The Official Receiver and this staff are fully occupied. If we are to add a fresh dimension to bankruptcies and bankruptcies which will require a good deal more reserves than some today, we should know what we are asking the Official Receiver to do. Who is to make the inquiries? Would it be the police, the probation officer or the Official Receiver's staff?
  Finally, we are generally talking about reparations from men at liberty and men of whom we may be doubtful about whether any arrangement will be honoured or whether any bargain agreed will be adhered to. In fairness, there is a tiny category where reparation would work. This would be the occasional thief, the originally honest man succumbing to sudden temptation, and the isolated offender for gain—not the man living the life of crime—and we may catch that sort of man. But it is not a very big category.
  I shall be accused of damning a cherished concept and of overstating the difficulties. But while I accept that the public wants this experiment, we ought not to fail to tell the public about the experiment's limitations and risks. I accept that there are advantages in a comprehensive scheme to replace the various miscellaneous provisions. But the dividend for prospective victims for some time to come will be very small. The cost of these provisions may well exceed the returns we obtain. We should leave no one under any illusion on this score. If we did, we should be in some danger of being made to look ridiculous by the criminal population.
  6.17 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Archer: The right hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes) has a most unfortunate habit of subjecting theories to the hard test of experience. If I defer until the Committee stage the pleasure of following him along the argument he has just developed—assuming that he and I are both fortunate enough to be selected for the Committee—I hope that he will understand that it is because there may be a little more time available in Committee, whereas this evening I am conscious of the passage of time.
  I should like to use these fleeting moments on Second Reading to look at penal policy in general. Penal policy always is an emotional subject. As my right hon. Friend, the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) said, it was treated emotionally both during and before the General Election. The Labour Government were blamed for the train robbery, which occurred even before they came to power. Perhaps particularly for that reason I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary on having resisted the temptation to treat the subject emotionally either in the Bill or in his opening speech today.
  I cannot conceive that the Bill will gain him a standing ovation at the next Conservative Party conference, but it may earn him a modest place in some future history book, a place a little more worthy than that which will be earned by some of his other activities. For that reason I congratulate him, because this is an emotional subject—and properly so. Brutal crime on the one hand and brutal treatment of offenders on the other have in common that they are horrifying things, and when people are horrified, sometimes they react emotionally, sometimes even irrationally.
  One factor of which every penal policy must take account is that it is dealing with irrational and unpredictable attitudes on both sides. Possibly one of the solutions is more research of the kind mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Dell). At present, those who devote research to shaping their theories are all too often associated with some kind of sloppy leniency. I suspect that those who advocate a rather tougher kind of repression, while equally guilty of generalisation, do
  1016
  not normally subject their theories to research in the same way.
  The truth is that even those who have produced conclusions as a result of detailed research are all too often proved wrong because generalisations on both sides are patterns into which the criminal obstinately refuses to fit. There is no one reason why people commit offences.
  There is a category of youngsters wandering around in gangs, with long hair and short skirts—or the reverse, according to the prevailing fashion—feeling rejected by the circles of the more successful, reacting against the deferential attitude to their superiors of their grandfathers. These youngsters have nothing in common with the tough, professional criminal who is in it because he sees it as a paying proposition. Nor with the middle-aged shoplifter.
  Almost all the generalisations we make are likely to be confronted by counterexamples. It is easy to say, as one hon. Member has said, that so often it is the fault of the family, of the breakdown of the home. This is, I think, a little unfair on the family. One can have a family which has given the best of all possible homes to a youngster, only to find that, somewhere along the line, it has failed. It is a little rough on parents to find themselves blamed in that situation.
  Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that in the case of the really serious recidivists, very nearly half come from families with some background of serious crime?
  Mr. Archer: That is perfectly true. The statistics would tend to support a generalisation of that kind. All I am pointing out is that so often, when we advance this kind of generalisation, we find that there are counter-examples. It is unfortunate when particular individuals are caught up in a dogma into which they do not fit. So often, it is hard on the particular offender who is caught up in a similar kind of generalisation, because the result will be that he receives the wrong kind of treatment.
  But the statistics which the hon. Gentleman quoted are far removed from the more sweeping kinds of generalisation which emerge in expressions like

  1017
  "the permissive society." That expression does not make for clear thinking. There is no one syndrome which includes the wearing of long hair, the sampling of drugs by teenagers, the occasional peek into subversive literature and the robbing of a bank. The more clearly we have it in mind that these things have nothing in common, the more likely we are to treat particular offenders in a rational way. We have to remember that any generalisation in this area will make a monkey of us if we persist too sweepingly.
  I was fortunate enough, some 12 months ago, to visit some of the prisons in Israel where penology has reached a very enlightened stage. In the course of being conducted round, I was asked by the Commissioner to take particular note of someone we had just met—obviously a very friendly individual, one of the inmates who fitted well into the framework of prison life and who was obviously everyone's favourite. After we had had a talk and had passed on, the governor told me that this individual had murdered about 20 or 30 people. His practice had been to pretend to run a brothel, and when clients came along looking for the joys to be found there, he murdered them and rifled their pockets. I am not suggesting that we should draw any lessons from that individual. On the contrary. Any lesson we attempted to draw from experience of that kind could only lead to counter-examples.
  Here was a man, not irredeemably wicked. Given the right kind of environment, he could lead a useful life. He had not been broken by long imprisonment; it had been his redemption. He was not condemned always to be alienated from his environment. Any generalisation in which I personally had indulged prior to that encounter has since gone up in smoke.
  It is also true that any penal policy must take account of irrational elements, not only among the offenders themselves but also among the general public. It is not surprising that the victim of an offence reacts rather differently from those of us who can look at that offence with more detachment. When the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) said earlier that we showed less than an appropriate amount of sympathy for
  1018
  the victims of crime, we must recognise that sympathetic as we may be with the victims, their reaction is not necessarily the right reaction and it need not necessarily be our reaction.
  Take for example Northern Ireland. We can have sympathy with people doing a difficult job in a difficult situation, without wanting to emulate their example. The public, confronted with a horrific offence frequently react with horror, and some may call for irrational measures to combat that kind of offence. I am not suggesting that we should not take account of this; we should be unrealistic if we tried to produce a criminal policy which did not take account of it. Our very earliest criminal procedure attempted to finalise the spontaneous reaction of the victim, by enabling him to re-enact before a court of law what he might otherwise have been led to do more quickly and spontaneously. It encouraged him to take advantage of the law, rather than to resort to self-help.
  In the debate on the Children and Young Persons Bill in 1969, I attempted to trace the development of our criminal law from this blind hitting out of the hurt child irrationally, without necessarily looking at the direction in which it is hitting, through a period when we emphasised the formalised majesty of something metaphysical called "The Law", demanding that every departure from the rules shall be visited with its due consequence, to the concept which criminologists now call "social defence", that is, that people sit down and ask rationally what is best to be done. In deciding this we must take account of the irrational elements. If we did not, we would be ignoring the material out of which we were attempting to construct policy. To ignore the spontaneous reaction of any portion of the public would be to run the risk of losing its co-operation. But to say that one is taking account of irrational elements does not entail following an irrational policy.
  I do not think that clear thinking is conduced to by suggestions that we are all engaged in a war against some impersonal abstract noun called "Crime", or against criminals in general. In a war the enemy is already identified. The whole point of criminal procedure is that it is essential, fairly and justly, to ensure that identification is accurate.

  1019
  Secondly, in a war, it is easy to suggest that the enemy should be eliminated. The very last thing anyone can seriously suggest is that we should eliminate every criminal in the personal sense of killing him off. To speak of "Social Defence" is to ask for clear thinking. It does not necessarily follow that we should adopt some kind of sentimentality or undue leniency. Some offences require stiff sentences and stiff sentences ought to be awarded. Nor does it necessarily follow that we should always expect the best of everyone, and find ourselves shattered when individuals prove to be impervious to reform.
  The Home Secretary said we should never assume that anyone is beyond reform but, equally, we must take account of the fact that some people disappoint our best expectations. And it does not follow that we should abandon the vocabulary of right and wrong. Sometimes it is important to bring home to offenders that what they did was wicked. It is important that we should retain the concept of deserving, because nothing is more likely to lose the confidence of the offender and the public than for it to be though that someone is treated more harshly than he deserves.
  But the best way to protect the public and the potential victims of crime, the best way to reduce the cost of keeping offenders in prison, the best way of helping the offender himself, is by persuading him if possible to adopt more law-abiding conduct.
  That means two things in this context. First, that there must be a continual review of the penal system in the light of the experience of the last few years. We must not be afraid, any of us, to confess that something we advocated a few years ago has transpired not to work. It is not surprising that there will be changes from time to time in what the foremost of the reformers are saying. These Victorian prisons which have been mentioned, for instance, were designed by Jeremy Bentham, no less, the archduke of reform. But he had in his mind that they really would afford the advantages of solitary confinement, not that they should be used three or four to a cell. I see from my right hon. Friend's White Paper "People in Prison" that of the 46 security
  1020
  prisons in 1969 only five have been built since 1914. The startling heresy of one generation seems to become the dreary habit of the next but three.
  Secondly, individual offenders will differ in their motivations and reactions to particular kinds of treatment, just as they will differ in the circumstances of any offence. That would suggest that the courts ought to be permitted to decide as freely as possible how to deal with the offender in a particular situation.
  Personally—and I freely confess that this is the opposite of what I was saying a few years ago—I welcome the end of the mandatory provisions. I see that that remark occasions a startled expression on the face of the Under-Secretary. I am not suggesting that judges are infallible. Sometimes they, too, are unpredictable and irrational, but the answer to that is not to circumscribe their powers to react appropriately to particular situations, but to ensure that at the outset of their legal career, they are afforded an opportunity of knowing what is being said in this area of penology, by reform of our legal training, and to ensure that on appointment and from time to time afterwards they are brought up to date on these matters.
  I look forward to the opportunity of discussing a number of these matters in Committee. I had looked forward at one stage to discussing them on Second Reading, but I see that the clock is against me. This Bill is not susceptible to dogmas. It merits a detailed consideration, and at the end of the day it may be that we shall not divide in Committee along party lines. I do not believe that it will be the final solution to our problems in penology, though it may provide a modest series of solutions to a series of disparate, but real. social problems.
  6.33 p.m.
  Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: I believe that the first duty is the one to protect society. The second duty is to treat the prisoner in such a way that he may eventually become a useful member of society. This Bill is a useful measure towards the second of those duties. The fundamental error of the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) is that he fell into the trap of believing that this is the

  1021
  only measure which the Tory Party intends to take in pursuance of the battle against crime.
  Let me tell the right hon. Gentleman that he is quite wrong. We regard this as a valuable measure because it carries into effect many of the suggestions which have been put forward by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Runcorn (Mr. Carlisle), my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes), my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Fylde (Mr. Gardner) and many others, most of whom have been working under what I would call the second duty whereas I have been perhaps more closely associated with the first duty of protecting society. Their part in this is every bit as important as the part of those of us who have been studying how to reduce serious crime. Both aspects are vital.
  Dealing with the first duty it has been said many times that there are 40,000 men in our prisons. Fewer than 2,000 are recidivists. Those 2,000 or fewer are professional, permanent criminals and it is highly unlikely that society will recover any of them to lead a reasonable way of life in future. They are long-term permanent criminals with many convictions, nearly all for crimes of violence—robbers, robbers with violence, confidence tricksters of many years' service in their profession in which they have usually been rather a failure. We have to find a way of dealing with them. I dealt with this at the time of the Gracious Speech. It is essential that they be put away with maximum security and in some suitable place where prison staff and officers can look after them properly.
  This Bill deals with totally different matters, of great value. First it deals with measures for expiation of the offence and only part of that, the expiation of the offence in enabling compensation orders to be made, reparation orders, criminal bankruptcy to be declared in those few cases where it will apply, and community service orders in respect of the young vandals for whom it will he very valuable indeed. It also deals with parole hostels, after-care hostels, with which the Under-Secretary has been closely associated, and the supervision orders which will arise under those heads when men go out on licence. When parole has been granted by the local review committees I hope prisoners will be allowed to go only to a
  1022
  hostel when they will get a job of work and then be subject to some provision order so that they will not fall back into the paths of crime.
  I want to deal with two important points that have not been touched upon at all and about which I feel very deeply. They are both calling for stronger action, they are both specifically limited and they are dealt with in Clause 28. I refer to alcoholics and to those who are not mentioned, drug addicts. In 1968—and I would like to know the up-to-date figures—there were 35,000 convictions for drunkenness and 3,000 of those people went to prison over 200 women and about 2,800 men. They literally have littered our prisons and it is utterly ridiculous. The plain recommendation by the Estimates Committee of this House in 1968 was that
  "… legislative powers should be sought to reduce the number of persons in prison for offences involving drunkenness and to provide them, under the aegis of the Prison Service with halfway houses."
  Let us provide them. This Clause is no good as it stands; there is no power for the officer who has taken in the drunk and presented him to the portals of the halfway house to order that he be kept there.
  What we must see is that there is a proper power, providing for the compulsory treatment of these drunks in appropriate places so that we may be able to bring them back to a happy position in society, having in many cases effected a cure. The same is to be said about the treatment of drug addicts for whom there is no provision in the Bill. Shortly before the last election, and I am not ashamed of this suggestion, I recommended such treatment in a pamphlet which I wrote when I said:
  "The proposals are simple. All alcoholics, on their second or further conviction, would be liable to be sentenced to a period of detention in a treatment centre for a period not longer than 12 months. The same system would obtain in the case of the drug addict. In both cases … it is argued that this is an infringement of the liberty of the subject. It is no more so than the breathalyser test and compulsory blood tests. In any event, there is no reason why these public nuisances should cause public time and money to be spent upon their treatment, unless such treatment may be effectively ensured. Provision can be made at these centres for them to be usefully employed, and thereby in part pay their way. A great many will be cured and redeemed for the benefit of society and themselves."

  1023
  I urge the Home Secretary and my hon. Friend to take the feeling of this side of the House. I think I am right in saying that the whole of the Conservative Party—and I stand four-square behind this—would be overwhelmingly in favour of this being carried out. I am not sure that I shall not carry many hon. Members opposite with me, for this is a humane and sensible way in which to deal with these people instead of mixing drunks and drug addicts with criminals in prisons.
  It may be said in reply that we shall find it difficult to get sufficient halfway houses for alcoholics and sufficient treatment centres for drug addicts. I appreciate that and if the courts cannot apply power in too many cases, there are other provisions in the Bill which will have to apply, but I profoundly hope that the House will take careful note of these provisions. It is no good asking an alcoholic to stay in a halfway house if he is free to walk out. There must be power to keep him there, and that treatment in itself is the deterrent. Similarly, the deterrent effect is lost if the drug addict is free to walk out of a treatment centre. It must be possible to keep them for a reasonable period for cure.
  Of course, in each case it will be entirely a matter for the medical staff to say how long is necessary and no one would suppose that it would very often be 12 months. It is more likely to be 10 or 12 weeks, possibly with the right of recall if there is a further conviction, so that the period would normally be quite short. In this way, instead of having imprisonment for six months, when no useful work can be done and no reparation can be made, and after which the drunks and drug addicts are free to go on the streets and almost immediately come back before the magistrates, reformation would be possible.
  I appeal to hon. Members to agree that even though some may find this a harsh way to proceed, it will be better for society generally and will strengthen the Bill if there are new Clauses, on which I shall ask the support of all my colleagues on both sides of the House, so that we may strengthen the provision relating to drug addicts and alcoholics.
  6.42 p.m.
  Mr. Clinton Davis: The hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) has expressed views on which he hopes to carry the Government with him. There was much in what he said which could have the support of both sides of the House. I apologise for not commenting on his views, but I want to comment on some of the concepts of the Bill and on certain remarkable omissions.
  It is inevitable that in a Criminal Justice Bill one should get a hotch-potch of ideas—inevitable but unfortunate. It is difficult to think of any Criminal Justice Bill which has expressed a coherent pattern of thought, whether about crime or about the way in which penalties are to be imposed. I fear that this is no exception. There is a good deal of window dressing in the Bill and I shall allude to that later.
  A generally acceptable concept is that of compensation, but in the Bill it has not been clearly thought out. How is the court, magistrates' court or higher court, to form a competent view of the amount of compensation to be awarded on the sort of information generally available to a court at the conclusion of a trial? Civil actions take a long time to come to court. I am not suggesting that these considerations should be deferred for a year, or anything of that kind, but one of the difficulties is that these matters have to be carefully analysed. Medical reports have to be assimilated, for instance. That is how there is formed a view of the quantum of damage.
  Is the court at the end of the trial to be expected to form a realistic view of compensation in personal injury cases? I very much doubt it, but if it is, there is a burden on the Government to spell out in the Bill, or at least in the rules, the criteria by which the thinking of courts is to be guided, just as previous legislation has prescribed how the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board should consider these matters.
  There is another feature of these provisions which is a little unfortunate. The Bill refers only to personal injuries, but many people are the victims of crime when their personal injuries may not be highly significant, but when their consequential loss is considerable, and that

  1025
  consideration at the moment is excluded. My suggestion—and in effect I am thinking aloud for the matter is clearly in an early stage—is that the court should make an order but that the actual amount of the compensation should be referred to a referee, the county court registrar or even the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board, so that a proper analysis of the position may be undertaken.
  I hope that the order for compensation will not be used as an additional penalty, because that could constitute an obstacle to rehabilitation. Causing hardship to the family of the accused could be counter-productive and easily lead to further crime. I agree with what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, East (Mr. Edward Lyons) about death of a victim. I should like to know why compensation for the dependants of a person who has been killed is specifically excluded.
  Finally in this regard, what are the sanctions for non-compliance with a compensation order? The idea of criminal bankruptcy is a useful concept, although I do not wish to be euphoric about its effect. Why has the figure of £15,000 been chosen as the limit? What is to be the staff of the official petitioner? For unless there is an effective staff, this provision will be a waste of time. It will be interesting to know what sort of research and study the Home Office has made of the likely results of this proposal. I fear that the benefits are likely to be somewhat elusive, because the clever criminal, and certainly the more substantial criminal will devise schemes by which to avoid this provision. Appeal against a criminal bankruptcy order is specifically precluded. I should like to know why.
  The main purpose underlying the Bill is that underlying the 1967 Act—namely, to reduce the size of the prison population. One hon. Member has spoken of going to prison as being an enforced holiday. Going to some of the older London prisons where three men share one cell, and this was certainly not the case when the prisons were built 100 years ago, is far from being an enforced holiday. These appalling conditions are not and cannot be considered to be conducive to rehabilitation. The new ideas in the Bill will require substantially increased expenditure if they are not to
  1026
  fail. Great burdens are to be imposed on the probation service and the aftercare service but unless the Government provide the wherewithal for these functions to be undertaken efficiently and effectively and take an enlightened view of the pay structure of these services, grave damage will be done to these important concepts.
  I am not sure what the Government have in mind with the idea of community service. What sort of work are people to be required to undertake? When is it appropriate to make an order? Again, what are the criteria to be applied? Why is it to be subject to the defendant's consent? There is a requirement that if community service is not performed satisfactorily the person will be subject to penalties. It is very difficult to determine whether someone is performing these tasks satisfactorily. One court will take one view and another court may take the opposite view, and accordingly guide-lines are required. These are matters about which the House requires to know very much more.
  Three omissions from the Bill are important. The first relates to bail. A great deal of disquiet has been expressed recently by Justice, by the London Criminal Court Solicitors Association and by the Cobden Trust about the inadequacies of the present administration of the bail system. We are told that about 40,000 people a year are remanded in custody awaiting appeal. Of those, about 21,000 ultimately receive no custodial treatment and 10 per cent. of the 40,000 are acquitted, yet they have quite frequently been remanded in custody for long periods.
  These various researches indicate serious anomalies in the administration of the hail system. There is great variation of practice and approach between different courts. Although it is impossible to obtain total standardisation, there should be a greater measure of standardisation than we have at present.
  The price of refusal of bail can be very high, not only to the individual but to the country. For the individual, it frequently involves loss of employment, disruption of home life and loss of accommodation, and it can also have a tremendous effect on those for whom remand in custody is unsuitable. For the country, it costs about £25 a week

  1027
  to remand someone in custody, and there is also to be considered the considerable benefits to be paid to the families of such persons. So the price of deprivation of liberty can be very serious to both the individual and to the community.
  These researches have also shown that abuses take place. There is too much bail bargaining, as every practitioner in criminal courts realises. Some police officers abuse their powers in this respect, and this is something that should be looked into urgently. Some courts will remand in custody in order to impose a punishment, which is not the purpose of remand. Not all courts by any means make adequate investigation into the question of whether an accused person should be remanded in custody or on bail. There needs to be careful investigation into an accused person's whole background—his health, his family, his employment record. One suggestion is that we should investigate the possibilities of the "Vera" system—which allocates points to various criteria affecting an accused person which is being employed in Manhattan at present, apparently with some degree of success.
  There are still courts which accept, almost blindly, police objections to bail. In one court, the magistrates recently said that, on the advice of the police they proposed to refuse bail. In Willesden magistrates' court a colleague of mine appeared in a case recently in which, in his view as an experienced practitioner, bail should have been granted almost automatically, but because the police objected he was almost intimidated by the court when he dared to ask questions. The view was that, after all, the police were opposing bail and was this not good enough? I do not say that all courts, or even the majority, adopt these attitudes, but some do, and the Home Office should not turn a blind eye to them.
  We ought to use, much more frequently, out-patient facilities at prisons when people are remanded in custody for medical reports, and we should also use the services of local doctors in this connection. All too often, people are remanded in custody for medical reports when it is not essential to do so.
  Legal aid should have been considered in the Bill, but this has not been done.
  1028
  There are great anomalies here, too. Why should not legal aid be made available on appeals to a judge in chambers from a refusal to grant bail? The new concept of a duty rota of solicitors at magistrates' courts to assist unrepresented defendants should also be considered by the Home Office.
  I have argued, on previous occasions, as has my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) for compensation for those acquitted after having spent long periods in custody. The Home Office have said that this is not practical, but schemes of this character are now operating in France and Germany. I cannot see any good reason why this, too, should not be carefully explored. If it is successful in those countries, why should it not be applied here?
  I believe these to be serious omissions from the Bill.
  Mr. Rees-Davies: Before the hon. Member leaves that very important point, one of the reasons lies in the burden of proof. One might get a result in which in a civil action brought in respect of the loss suffered the plaintiffs succeeded against the accused person for damages, but the hon. Gentleman is asking for compensation because of an acquittal. An acquittal does not establish the innocence of the party concerned, and parties still have left open to them the general civil rights, if they wish to use them, in respect of, say, stolen property or the like.
  Mr. Davis: I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree that it is sometimes very difficult to establish a case even where there has been an acquittal. Cases in which compensation is available from the State are all too infrequent. All I say is that the Government ought to look very carefully at the experiments which are being carried out in France and Germany where, admittedly, the procedures are different and the burden of proof is different. Nevertheless, if it applies successfully there, there is at least a prima facie case for further inquiry in this country.
  6.58 p.m.
  Mr. Norman Miscampbell: I give a general welcome to the sensible reforms now before the House. As I shall probably have to serve on the

  1029
  Standing Committee, I shall deal with some matters in more depth later. As it is, I want to make two brief points and to deal with one other matter in rather more detail.
  Clause 23 is clearly designed to add disqualification as a penalty for offences other than motoring offences but where a motor car has been used. What seems likely to happen in practice is that the person convicted will serve a prison sentence and then have disqualification added at the end of that prison sentence. We may then find that criminal back in court time and again because of breaches of the disqualification.
  I commend the whole idea of community service. It is exciting and interesting, and something which we should try.
  I want particularly to comment on Clause 24, which increases the penalty for the use of firearms. As representative of a constituency where in the summer our chief of police was gunned down with pistols, I can only say that I very much welcome the Government's intention to increase the penalty from 14 years to life. But I wonder whether that is enough. Has not the time come to say that the private possession of revolvers for any reason should be stopped? I appreciate that a person must have a licence in order legally to be in possession of a revolver, but the fact that certain people can have revolvers and use them for legal and sporting purposes means that they are on sale in gunsmiths. One can see them in any gunsmith's window. They must be stored, and, therefore, they can be stolen. Burglaries occur in gunsmiths which are a source of guns, pistols and other arms for those who wish to use them.
  I appreciate that in many cases it is not the legally-held gun but the stolen gun which is used in crime. The fact that one must find out whether a person has a licence means that a pistol can pass round among criminals.
  Mr. John Farr: Is my hon. Friend aware that many thousands of users of pistols belong to officially-approved and properly-constituted pistol clubs? Moreover, very seldom, if ever, is a pistol used in crime which can be traced back to the registered holder. Almost always it is an illegally-possessed pistol which has no record in police files.
  Mr. Miscampbell: That is the point I am making.
  I accept that there must be a sacrifice, and I am asking people to make a sacrifice. We must say that it is not worth people having pistols for the amount of sport that they provide. In my professional experience, I have never known a legally-held pistol to be used in a crime. But the fact that pistols can be bought in shops and can be seen in gunsmiths means that we should put a stop to their sale. If a private individual must be in possession of a pistol, the pistol should be provided by the State for specific purposes.
  Mr. Laurance Reed: Surely increasing numbers of people are possessing pistols, not for sporting purposes, but because they feel that the laws do not protect their interests. If we want to bring in a reform such as that which my hon. Friend suggests, we must first persuade people that the Home Office and the Government are capable of dealing with crimes of violence.
  Mr. Miscampbell: I agree. I am merely saying that this is one small step which we should take. I recognise that it would be no more than a small step. If we provided that the mere possession of a pistol was a serious criminal offence, we should take a valuable step towards stopping the use of firearms in criminal activities.
  7.2 p.m.
  Mrs. Renée Short: I support most of the provisions in the Bill. We need not approach this matter in a party political way. I welcome many of the proposals in the Bill, particularly as some of them are ideas which many of us on this side of the House have been putting forward for some time.
  I agree with the right hon. and learned Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton) that prison has not deterred the commission of serious crime and that it never did. When men were hanged for sheep stealing, sheep stealing still continued, and when men had their hands cut off for stealing, stealing still continued. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) is absolutely right in saying that we need a full inquiry into the question of the effects of imprisonment.

  1031
  I hasten to assure the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton), who made a stirring maiden speech today, that prisons are far from being recreation centres. I visited a large number of prisons—men's and women's prisons, closed and open prisons, borstals and detention centres—in the course of an inquiry which my Estimates Committee made in 1967. While there are many shortcomings, I should not say that they were places to which people went for a nice easy time.
  Many of the shortcomings in our penal system arise from the fact that our prisons are old and antiquated and very difficult to run and use up a great deal of prison officers' time in foolish activities, such as locking and unlocking doors, which take them away from working with the prisoners and helping to rehabilitate them. This is a serious disability from which our prison system suffers.
  I should like to have seen certain reforms in the Bill. There are far many more adventurous ideas which can be put forward which would provide alternative opportunities for different activities among prisoners for work within the community. A very interesting and useful start has been made in many respects in building prisons and detention centres. There is an enormous amount of socially needed work which could be done in the community. I hope that the results of the experimental ideas in the Bill will give the Home Secretary and his colleagues in the Home Office encouragement to be a little more adventurous in their proposals.
  I am very disappointed that there is no proposal in the Bill for conjugal visits for long-term prisoners. This would have a far-reaching and salutary effect on men who are incarcerated for 15 or 20 years and whose personalities are likely to suffer serious deterioration as a result of long-term imprisonment.
  I agree that a large proportion of the men in prison should not be there. The majority of the women in Holloway and other prisons should not be there. I have visited Holloway several times. I was there about a fortnight ago to see the girls who had managed to get on the roof to demonstrate against certain conditions in the prison. It is very disturbing to
  1032
  see young girls aged 17 and 18 in prison. I am sure that alternative methods of dealing with women prisoners could be found.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East spoke about a prison population of 40,000. The overwhelming majority of them are men. Women are much more law-abiding and do not tend to go in for crimes of violence unless they are egged on by boy friends, husbands or other undesirable male company. Many of the women in prison are highly disturbed, and prison is not the place for them, particularly when we are so short of doctors, psychologists and psychiatrists in the prison service who can give offenders the kind of rehabilitative treatment which the majority of them urgently need.
  One cannot calculate the cost in emotional and psychiatric disturbance of putting mothers who love children in prison or in any other kind of custody, involving as it does the break-up of the family and cost to the community if children have to be taken into care. What the majority of women need when they get into difficulty in this way is care and guidance at home, and this means that we have to build up to a much greater extent the social work system and probationary system within the localities—on a much wider scale than we have at the moment.
  Almost 40 years ago the Report of the Departmental Committee on Persistent Offenders, Cmnd. 4090, said that for the majority of women the traditional type of prison was both unnecessary and harmful, and it recommended a non-prison atmosphere for them. That was 40 years ago. We have not really made very much progress in the last 40 years. Look, for example, at the girl of 23 who was sentenced recently for a very serious offence when a small baby was taken away from its parents. It was a terrible offence, but if we look at the sentence of three years' imprisonment I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the House will feel that the sentence of imprisonment was not necessary. Bearing in mind the circumstances attaching to that person, this was a very sad case and needed very different treatment.
  In the same way, quite a large proportion of the men who are sent to prison

  1033
  for fairly short terms also need other kinds of treatment. Something like 40 per cent. of male prisoners have drink problems. These are long-term problems. Usually short-term sentences are given. I am certain that we should go rather further than the proposals of the Bill, namely, that those who are picked up for offences of this kind should be in some kind of establishment, a hospital, or a place like Grendon, where they can be dried out. As I indicated in my intervention in the Home Secretary's speech, we need to go further. It is not enough to put them in some place where they can be dried out, as it were, and cleaned up, as at the Spring Hill Open Prison, where most of the inmates belong to this kind of case. They are there for short periods; they are off drink while they are there, and they are in very pleasant country surroundings—but what happens when they are discharged? They go back to precisely the same environment from which they came and face the same sorts of problems which drove them to drink in the first place, and with no help of the sort which they ought to have. They are taking up in Spring Hill places which could be used for different kinds of offenders.
  We ought to be looking not only at hostels for young offenders, bail hostels, probation hostels, but we ought to be looking urgently at hostels for men and women discharged from prison, hospitals which could provide for a bridging period between discharge and the time when they return completely to life on their own. Wakefield Prison has a hostel of this kind, where there is still supervision by the prison officers. This has proved very useful, because men are able to go out for a job and have a perfectly normal working day and yet they have a certain amount of supervision which helps them till the time they are able to return to their families, if they have them, or go into "digs" and be on their own. There is a large number of men who spend long periods of time in institutions from an early age when, perhaps, they were in children's homes, because of the break up of their own families, which, often, led to borstal, which in turn led to prison, a psychiatric prison, or a psychiatric hospital. They are continuously at a disadvantage, never able to hold down a job and to organise them-
  1034
  selves and to run their own lives in a normal way.
  The proposals in the Bill for dealing with the younger offenders are very valuable indeed, and I believe that many young offenders will respond very much better in the day centre or hostel than in borstal or a detention centre. One would hope that the recidivist rate, which is very high, with the provision of this kind of establishment would show a considerable reduction, but again, after discharge from this kind of centre it is not enough to send the person back to the kind of environment whence he came.
  The shortcoming in the Bill is that there is no reference at all to the development of community responsibility. What is urgently needed both for adult offenders and for young offenders is involvement in different sections of the community in their rehabilitation and resettlement once they are released from prison or from the probation hostel or whatever, and for the young offenders there is a very good case for building up the youth service in a much more positive and functional way so that young people can be very much more under the supervision and care of youth leaders and those people working in this field. Indeed, why should not young people who are the active corps in youth clubs take under their wing young boys who have been in difficulty, and thus accept some degree of greater social responsibility, in seeing that those boys are helped back to normal life?
  All this will place an enormous burden on an already over-burdened and understaffed probation service. I must say that I agreed absolutely with my right hon. Friend when he said that this is going to place an additional financial burden on the local authorities. The provision in the Bill for the Government to meet only 50 per cent. of the cost is nowhere near adequate enough. If, as it is hoped, the Bill is going to save some £23 a week for each man kept in prison—because that is the average cost—quite clearly it is unfair to say to the local authorities that the Government will have that amount of money through the reduction in the numbers of people going to prison, but an additional burden will be placed on local authorities, but the Government will bear only 50 per cent. of that increased burden. So I would very much hope that the Home Secretary will

  1035
  look at this again to see if he can go very much nearer to meeting 100 per cent. of the cost. That would be fair in the circumstances.
  In conclusion, I welcome very much Clause 42, which is the recommendation, absolutely in toto, made in the Eleventh Report of the Estimates Committee, in which we recommended the Home Office to take the first opportunity to introduce legislation to repeal the 1952 provision. I am delighted that the Home Secretary has found it possible to do this, but I should like to utter one word of warning. I hope that this will not mean that the Home Secretary will feel that in future he will be able, while accepting this recommendation, to take over the sites without paying the current market value to the local authority, or that that money should be used to purchase land away from the towns to build new prisons. If prisons are built away from centres of population enormous difficulties will be created for those who work within the prison system, solicitors, doctors, relatives and all who need to visit prisons, often at short notice.
  With those reservations, I welcome the Bill and hope that some of the proposals for improvement that have been put forward from both sides of the House will be accepted in Committee.
  7.20 p.m.
  Mr. John Farr: Before dealing with the Bill I will refer to the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Miscampbell). I think it is quite unnecessary to impose strict control on legitimate users of pistols. There are not many of them and they enjoy their pastime, as they have done for many years, in perfect safety and security. Whether or not pistols are banned, they will continue to come into the country through the ports, as they are doing now. This is a lucrative sideline for those who are engaged in the trade.
  I congratulate my right hon. Friend on what he said and on the manner in which he presented the Bill. There are certain points with which he dealt in great detail and with which I find myself fully in agreement, notably in relation to restitution by criminals, the criminal bankruptcy method and the proposals for the community services. There is one point,
  1036
  however, which sticks out like a sore thumb to me and that is on Clause 24, which relates to the Firearms Act, 1968.
  Those of us who were lucky enough to be at Brighton when my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary spoke of his proposals concerning the Firearms Act, 1968, were much impressed by what he said. Clause 24 lays down that the penalties under the Act shall be increased. I should have more faith in that doing the slightest good if the Firearms Act were working properly. I have turned up a few statistics, and I find that the maximum penalties laid down in that Act have been consistently and regularly ignored by the courts.
  Since 1968, there have been about 7,000 successful convictions under the Firearms Act, 1968. The average penalty imposed by the courts has been approximately 4 per cent. of the maximum laid down. For the Home Secretary in the Bill to increase by a few years the penalty for contravening a Section or two of the Act makes little or no difference.
  Under the Firearms Act, for using a firearm to resist arrest, which is a serious crime, the maximum penalty is 14 years, or a fine, or both. In 36 successful convictions since 1968 the average prison sentence imposed has been two years seven months. The Bill increases the 14 years' penalty to life imprisonment, but when the courts have so consistently ignored Parliament's wishes, what is the value of increasing the sentence by a marginal amount?
  The maximum penalty for carrying a loaded firearm in a public place under the 1968 Act is a fine of £200, or six months' imprisonment, or both. There have been 1,787 successful convictions, but the average fine imposed has been the paltry sum of £7·70. On this evidence what difference would it make if the maximum penalties under Sections 17(2) and 18(1) of the 1968 Act were increased from seven and 10 years to 14 years respectively? The average penalty under Section 17(2) imposed by the courts has been two years five months. Under Section 18(1), which calls for a maximum penalty of 10 years, the average penalty imposed by the courts has been two years six months.
  Similar evidence applies to other proposals. In some cases the maximum fine is to be increased from £200 to £400,

  1037
  although only 3 per cent. of the maximum fine has been imposed in the past. It therefore makes little or no difference if the maximum is doubled. I have a list of all the offences under the 1968 Act for which fines of £200 can be imposed. The average fine which has been imposed in many thousands of successful prosecutions since 1968 is in the region of £7 or £8.
  Sections 16 and 17(1) of the 1968 Act lay down a maximum penalty of 14 years, which my right hon. Friend is increasing to life. Under Section 16 there have been 63 successful convictions and the average penalty imposed has been only three years one month. Under Section 17(1), on 36 successful convictions since 1968 the average sentence has been only two years seven months.
  In the light of this evidence, which is irrefutable as it comes from the Home Office, it is meaningless for Parliament marginally to increase penalties as the Home Secretary proposes. If the intentions of this Bill are not to be made a mockery of, as happened with the 1968 Act, the House must safeguard its intentions by imposing a varying level of minimum penalties as well as maximum penalties.
  7.28 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Davidson: I do not wish to go into the personal differences that have arisen between the hon. Members for Blackpool, North (Mr. Miscampbell) and Harborough (Mr. Farr), except perhaps to indicate a preference for the viewpoint of the hon. Member for Blackpool, North. I am astonished at the comparative ease with which even low-grade criminals manage to get hold of firearms. Whilst I defend civil liberties to the hilt, I agree that in this matter certain sacrifices ought to be made for the common good. The real evil lies in the ease with which criminals, or anyone else for that matter, can obtain firearms. If in his reply the hon. and learned Member for Runcorn (Mr. Carlisle) can suggest a method of helping in that direction, I shall be pleased to hear it.
  The right hon. Gentleman introduced the Bill in a low temperature style. He was right to do so because the Bill is not a great reforming measure, and he did not put it forward as such. It heralds no new radical approach to penal policy, nor
  1038
  does it contain any revolutionary theory on the treatment of offenders. It is a useful, neat, little tidying up Measure and contains some sensible innovations. I welcome it as such. It is not a repressive or reactionary Measure. Indeed, I would be surprised if the hon. and learned Member for Runcorn, whom I have known for many years, were to allow himself to be associated with a repressive Measure.
  The language used by the Home Secretary was in line with modern and progressive thinking on penal matters. It was certainly different language from that used by many of his colleagues during the General Election. I am sure that the Bill will be a disappointment to those hon. Members and others who think, and have always thought, that the way to handle a criminal is by rough and tough treatment. Such people frequently suggest that if one is rough enough and brutal enough one can sweep the streets clear of criminals at a stroke—or, in view of such people's obsession with the birch, at several strokes.
  All theory and research have proved the opposite. One has only to look at some of the worst prisons in America, where there is a viciously repressive régime and brutal attempts to break a prisoner's spirit, to see that the result is invariably violence to the prisoner and violence to the warder as well. This is one lesson we can learn from the George Jackson episode.
  It is significant that the people who urge tough measures and talk about bringing back the birch are seldom there to see the birch being administered. They do not have to adminster it themselves and are not subject to the day-to-day pressures that result from a repressive régime. Nor do they have to deal with the prisoner who, having lived for a long time in a brutal atmosphere, comes out of prison not as a good citizen, but as somebody hostile and more in revolt against society.
  Much of the confusion in people's minds about crime and punishment is caused because they are confused about the criminals themselves. I was pleased to hear the Home Secretary say that there were two specific categories of prisoner. There is the hardened, violent criminal and I, like the Home Secretary, take the view that the man who runs a

  1039
  well-organised criminal syndicate and who is invariably vicious, clever and successful should be dealt with by a long sentence. There is no other way to deal with such a man. But as anybody knows who practises in or who has any experience of the courts, the vast majority of criminals are not of that sort at all. They are usually highly unglamorous they are a nuisance rather than a menace they are pathetic and riotously unsuccessful. They go in and out of prison and within a few weeks of release commit another offence, for which inevitably they are caught and returned to prison. Whatever other conclusion can be drawn, what is certain is that repeated doses of imprisonment have been completely ineffective in changing their course of action. Therefore, I welcome some of the constructive suggestions put forward for alternative ways of dealing with offenders other than prison sentences.
  I should now like to put forward a few constructive suggestions about the Bill itself. I welcome the Clause dealing with compensation and orders against convicted persons. The weakness of the Clause is that the vast majority of people against whom it will be used will not be able to pay because they are either paupers or have their money cleverly salted away. Why should the principle of awarding compensation in criminal cases not be further extended? At the moment under the Bill it applies only to cases of loss of or damage to property—a power which was already in existence under the Forfeiture Act—or to any personal injury. I should like to see it extended to people who are out of pocket in other ways.
  I have particularly in mind the Trade Descriptions Act. This Act has been in force for three years and has proved to be a useful measure from the consumer point of view. One practical defect in that legislation is that it provides no means of compensating the victim of a misleading trade practice. Weights and measures inspectors frequently say that people who complain to them about matters under the Act often lose interest and, when told that the Act cannot procure them compensation, refuse to act as witnesses in criminal prosecutions. I feel that there is a case for a trader being able to compensate his victim, and it would be a far more valuable contribu-
  1040
  tion to the Bill if a provision were included by which the victim of a misleading trade practice under the Trade Descriptions Act could be so compensated. I hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman will deal with that matter when he replies. Such a suggestion is in line with the thinking in the Bill. It could be done, and if I am fortunate or, depending on the way one thinks, unfortunate enough to be a member of the Committee on the Bill, I shall put down an Amendment. I now give the Government due notice of my intention to do so. I feel that the vast majority of the Clauses are best dealt with in Committee.
  I welcome the Bill, as far as it goes. One day, I hope that some Home Secretary will come forward with a Bill which has been based on a great deal of research and with vast resources put at its disposal, which is the product of concentrating on just what effect imprisonment has on a person. I hope that some such Bill will include revolutionary alternatives to prison. Until that happens, this present Bill is not too bad a step.
  7.40 p.m.
  Mr. Roger White: Very properly, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary drew attention to the background to the Bill and the situation in which we find ourselves today. It is a background of an increase in crimes of violence of all kinds. During the first six months of this year, there has been an increase of 13·4 per cent. in crimes of violence, and indictable offences known to the police in England and Wales have totalled 821,000, which is an increase of 4·9 per cent.
  Unhappily, we live in a period when cheats prosper and where crime pays. Chief Inspector Colin Greenwood of the West Yorkshire Constabulary, writing in the magazine Police, recently gave an assessment of the gamble taken by criminals in weighing the odds of detection and punishment. He estimated that the odds against getting caught were between 7 and 10 to 1 in the villain's favour. Admittedly, those odds were given by Chief Inspector Greenwood when referring to crimes which at one time suffered the ultimate penalty. Therefore it follows that they are much greater for other crimes of violence, certainly those involving robbery.

  1041
  The increase of crime is worldwide, and the increase of crimes against society, persons or property in this country is taking place against a background of many years of undeniable reform and patience, to say nothing of diligent and humane work on the part of everyone concerned with discipline and welfare.
  As a lay magistrate, together with stipendiary magistrates and judges, I have had the painful duty of sending people to prison. I assure the House that there is nothing more painful. I can think of nothing that brings home to one such a sense of humility as when having to take a decision to sentence another human being to what is known as custodial treatment. In the parlance of the criminal fraternity, it is known as "bird" or "porridge". Whatever else it means, another human being is being set aside from the rest of society and locked up for a period of time.
  Earlier, the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) spoke about the experiment with the suspended sentence. I go part of the way with him in agreeing that initially, certainly, we saw a rise in the numbers receiving suspended sentences and possibly a drop in the total of fines. I assure the House that every effort has been made at seminars and sentencing exercises to impress upon lay magistrates that a suspended sentence is in fact a prison sentence and that it is in no way an alternative to a prison sentence.
  Despite the high hopes expressed by the right hon. Gentleman, people who were sentenced two or three years ago to suspended sentences have been coming back to the courts and receiving sentences additional to those imposed on them earlier. The result is that they have had lengthy periods of custodial treatment, all of which have added to the burden of and given grave concern to the prison authorities. I trust that the provisions outlined in Clauses 10 and 11 will go some way to alleviate the present position. They are to be welcomed.
  A great deal has been said already about the probation service and the aftercare that these latest proposals involve. It is important that every facility should be given to the probation service for those who will be allocated to it under suspended sentence orders.
  1042
  My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) touched on a very important point when he referred to the provision giving power to a constable to take an offender arrested for drunkenness in a public place to an approved medical treatment centre for alcoholics. I do not know how other hon. Members view this provision, but I can assure them that there is nothing quite so pathetic as the habitual drunk of no fixed abode who comes before the courts and is sent to prison. Although in many instances prison provides these unfortunates with food, clothing, shelter and medical care possibly far in excess of anything that they have ever enjoyed outside, the indignity of their circumstances has to be seen to be understood.
  In the past, a prison sentence has been society's let-out. Very often, poverty-stricken old men without a soul in the world to care for them can find refuge only in society's places of punishment. While the provisions in Clause 26 will meet with the approval of the House and of all those concerned with this aspect of human frailty, it is to be hoped that the medical treatment centre for alcoholics is not the end of the road, but that thought will be given to what is to happen to them when they leave the centres. Are they to be sent back from whence they came, to some former haven, some refuge whore they can resume the life which brought them originally before the courts? I hone that we shall be told that the Home Office has this problem in mind. Surely we do not want to see such people coming repeatedly to medical centres, only to go through the whole nasty circle again.
  I come finally to Clauses 42 and 43, which deal with prisons. I am a visiting magistrate to one of Her Majesty's prisons. In one institution that I visited as a lay magistrate I found a borstal allocation centre, a first-term offenders' prison and a long-term offenders' block, all in the same establishment. To say the least of it, such a situation creates great difficulties in terms of association for the inmates, the constant flow of arrivals and departures of people on short-term sentences and, finally, for the staff in maintaining the security of long-term offenders. The need for vigilance, good order and discipline must be maintained always, and I look forward to

  1043
  this Bill seeing to it that eventually this sort of situation vanishes.
  I refer briefly to Holloway Prison. I am amazed at the decision to rebuild the establishment. In my opinion, the place should have been blown up. Certainly the nature of women offenders has taught us, if nothing else, that they are fewer in numbers, that, of those serving long sentences, possibly between 50 and 100 need locking up permanently, but that the vast majority need treatment of all kinds, preferably away from the atmosphere of a penal fortress.
  Finally, I have no doubt about the necessity to ensure that the violent and professional criminal is held securely and is called upon to make restitution to those whom he has robbed. These anti-social scoundrels require the full vigour of discipline which society and a modern penal system can provide.
  I believe that the Bill strikes the right balance. I trust that it will provide society with the proper protection that it deserves. I wish the Bill success.
  7.50 p.m.
  Mr. David Weitzman: I cannot resist the temptation of saying that I have listened to a very different speech by the hon. Member for Gravesend (Mr. Roger White) from the speeches which he used to make as my political opponent many years ago. I agree with him now much more than I did then.
  It has often been said that, unlike the continental systems, our legal system draws too great a distinction between the right to compensation in our civil courts and the jurisdiction to punish which is effected in our criminal courts. In the result, the criminal is punished, but few victims are compensated.
  Under a number of statutes our criminal laws provide the power to compensate, but this is clearly limited in character and rarely used. Obviously a prime concern should be that, although the criminal is properly punished, the victim does not suffer and the offender is able to enjoy the fruits of his crime, despite his punishment.
  I understand that, in substance, Clauses I to 9 adopt the recommenda-
  1044
  tions of the Report of the Advisory Committee on Reparation by the Offender. The report makes a careful analysis of the problem. I think that the provisions in Clauses 1 to 9 are sound, but we must not lose sight of the difficulties which will attend their administration.
  In most cases of crime the victim already has the remedy of seeking damages in the civil court; but the cost of such proceedings, despite legal aid, the trouble and hardship which may be involved, the time which must elapse before a judgment is given, and particularly the opportunity given by the delay which must ensue to the criminal to dissipate his resources and the risk that he may not be able to satisfy a judgment, makes such a remedy very doubtful. These difficulties can, to some extent, be overcome by an award at the time of conviction. That is why I support these provisions. Nevertheless, it must be recognised that the remedy prescribed in these provisions is a rough and ready one.
  Our criminal courts are already overburdened. A further task is now being placed upon them. They will have no time to make a detailed examination. It follows that these provisions can be used only in cases where the loss suffered or the damage which ensues can be estimated with some precision and shown clearly to result from the crime. It is satisfactory that the victim can still continue his remedy in the civil courts. I hope that these provisions will be carefully examined in Committee, because, despite the difficulties to which I have referred, I am rather attracted by the new Clause which was moved by the present Lord Chancellor on Report of the Criminal Justice Bill in April, 1967. The House may remember that his proposed remedy was a judgment in favour of the victim or a declaration of liability for damages to be assessed by the High Court or the county court. I hope that some attention and consideration may be given to that point.
  I note also that there need not be a claim by the victim. In many cases today one finds that unless the victim is there to make a claim, no claim is pursued. In fact, in our magistrates' courts, even in some cases where a police officer says that he is instructed to press

  1045
  a claim on behalf of the victim, the magistrates will refuse to deal with it. It is a good provision—that no claim need be made by the victim—but I suggest that he should be given the right to attend so that he can furnish the court with any necessary information.
  The provision in Clause 7 for the making of a criminal bankruptcy order is interesting. No doubt it can apply only to some few cases where the loss is considerable. The minimum loss of £15,000 seems too much. I should think that £5,000 would be about right. I regard these provisions—indeed, I think the Home Secretary said this—as an experiment. Despite the difficulties which attend them, they should be tried and, in the light of experience, continued, added to or amended in some appropriate way.
  I turn now to Clause 11. When provision was made that sentences of not more than six months, except in certain cases, should be suspended, it was thought to be a wise procedure which would result in a decrease in our prison population and would abolish short sentences which had no real effect on the character of the offender. But it may have led to the imposition of longer sentences to avoid such suspension. Also, the suspension period of three years was obviously too long. Therefore, it is prudent to make the suspension a matter for the discretion of the court and to reduce the maximum period to two years. I should stress that the only danger is that magistrates with unfettered discretion may return to the imposition of short sentences which, in many cases, do no good. Some steps should be taken to see that they are properly warned against this kind of thing. Otherwise, the good intention in the original provision will be defeated.
  I am somewhat doubtful about the provision in Clause 28 which gives power to the Attorney-General to refer a point of law to the Court of Appeal in the case of a person tried on indictment and acquitted. It is true that in certain cases where persons are acquitted there may be appeals by way of case stated. I recognise that. However, this is an innovation in that, where a jury has acquitted a person, there is to be a right of appeal on a point of law. It is true that the acquittal is not affected. That position has been safeguarded by the provisions
  1046
  in the Bill. There is provision also for the costs of the acquitted person in the appeal proceedings. But the person acquitted will have to undergo a period of anxiety until the appeal is determined. If the trial judge is held to have erred and a conviction would or might have resulted, there may be a stigma on the accused person. I do not like this departure from the existing law. It offends, to some degree, the principle that a person cannot be tried twice for the same offence.
  I now turn to a matter which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, Central (Mr. Clinton Davis). I did not hear the earlier part of his speech. I am interested in the Cobden Trust Report published on Thursday last which discloses a very serious state of affairs. In 1969 nearly half of all those who were denied bail were acquitted or given a non-custodial sentence. The provisions in section 18 of the Criminal Justice Act, 1967, appear to have had little effect. Magistrates accept too readily what the police say. Too little inquiry is made into the individual's background and his circumstances. Mere suggestion by the police appears to be accepted without question, and some magistrates do not seem to appreciate the importance of granting bail to the accused.
  The alleged offender is presumed to be innocent until he is convicted, and he should have a right to bail in all cases—I see that my reference to "all cases" has made the Under-Secretary of State frown, but he should wait a moment—subject to the exceptions set out in Section 18 of the 1967 Act. In other words, he should have a right to bail unless there is a clear reason, and some proof of that clear reason is given to the court, that it would not be right to grant him bail. Section 18(1) of the 1967 Act went some way towards that by giving such a right to an adult charged in a magistrates' court with a summary offence which is not an indictable offence. That Section should be amended so that it applies to all offenders.
  A recent report published by Justice showed that about 90 per cent. of all defendants in magistrates' courts—more than 1½ million persons—were unrepresented, and it suggested the appointment of a duty solicitor, as in the Scottish

  1047
  system, to see persons in custody and advise them before they appeared at court. Such a system would help on this question of granting bail. The Bill contains no provisions about bail, and I hope that in Committee the opportunity will be taken to include in this Measure the provision which I have suggested, or some provision which will help to remedy the grave injustice that is often caused by a refusal to grant bail.
  I welcome the Bill as a measure which contains a number of very useful provisions, but I welcome it more because I think that it affords the opportunity for a discussion on a number of serious problems in our criminal law.
  8.2 p.m.
  Mr. David James: I join the hon. and learned Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) in welcoming the Bill. I have listened to many speeches which I should dearly love to follow, particularly that of the hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. Peter Archer), who I think made one of the most interesting speeches that I have ever heard on this subject. But I have promised to be brief, and therefore "I must do my thing", as I believe the modern saying is, and my thing emanates from the fact that I was a prisoner of war in Germany during the last war.
  I have therefore been behind bars, albeit under rather modified conditions, and allied to a few nights in various civil gaols when I was on the run, and I assure those who might think otherwise that being a prisoner is no fun. It is not something that I should wish on my worst enemy, unless it was necessary for the preservation of society. I therefore welcome particularly the second leg of the Bill which is designed to look for various alternatives, and I hope to catch the ear of my hon. and learned Friend the Under-Secretary of State, who I know has done so much on this, about other possible alternatives not included in the Bill.
  First, an obvious alternative to prison is a fine. Fines are referred to in the Bill, but I wish that we could go over to the good system which the Royal Navy has enjoyed for many years. A fine of £5 is a lot of money to one man, whereas a fine of £50 is chicken feed to someone
  1048
  else. I am not talking about parking fees, or things like that, but I suggest that when a fine is imposed to save a man from a prison sentence we should take a leaf out of the Royal Navy's book, and a leaf out of the book of the Swedes, and make the fine relevant to the income or salary enjoyed by that person and, if need be, make it recoverable through P.A.Y.E., or self-assessment which I gather is in the news. A variable fine would make it very much easier to keep men out of prison.
  Mr. Deedes: Does my hon. Friend know the amount of unpaid fines?
  Mr. James: I cannot give my right hon. Friend that answer oft the cuff, but I suggest that if the type of fine which I have in mind were collected through P.A.Y.E. the figure might be rather less.
  I wanted to pursue my right hon. Friend on another point just before he started to pursue me. He said that criminal bankruptcy might be extremely difficult to enforce, and largely inefficacious. I agree with my right hon. Friend, and I should like to advance an alternative proposition, namely, the possibility of anyone convicted having the opportunity of offering restitution before sentence is passed. My right hon. Friend referred to the possibility of this sum of money, whatever it may be, being salted away with confederates, or put into a marriage settlement trust, or entrusted to a girl friend, but the possibility that the offer to pay the money might be a negotiating point in fixing sentence would be a powerful inducement to the chap to hang on to the lot himself because he might be able to buy a substantial remission in his sentence. I am not suggesting that if he has stolen £100,000, and returns £100,000 with interest, he should get away for nothing, but I think that the principle of restitution might be better than the principle of criminal bankruptcy, particularly in so far as it would be open to a wife to achieve a marked reduction in her husband's sentence.
  Mr. Weitzman: There is nothing to prevent his doing that now.
  Mr. James: But it does not have any definite bearing on the sentence he may receive and the result of it, and that is the point I wish to pursue.

  1049
  There is a third penalty which I should like to consider more closely, and that is in connection with driving licences. I recognise that on this issue I shall probably have a collision with the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) because I recognise that it has been Home Office doctrine, and lawyers' doctrine, for many years that the removal of driving licences can refer only to motoring offences. In my view a rather absurd situation emerges in that if someone parks three times with a defective rear light he can be deprived of his licence, but if he commits a serious criminal offence he cannot.
  I should like to see the deprivation of a driving licence, which is a limited deprivation of liberty, as one of the penalties available to a court. I am not moved by the suggestion that that would prevent a man from earning his living, because nothing prevents a man from earning his living more than being inside. I regard permission to drive a car in a modern society as a privilege which can be maintained only by good behaviour, and I suggest that the limited deprivation of losing a driving licence would, in many cases, be much more efficacious than the present system.
  I am doing my best to pursue other means of keeping people out of prison, and I shall now respond briefly to an invitation from the hon. Member for Accrington (Mr. Arthur Davidson) about yet another possibility. We are all concerned about those who appear to be habitual criminals. They start with approved school, and go on to borstal. They are in and out and, humanly speaking, those projections can go on throughout their lives. Such people fall into two categories—those who are vicious, and those who are weak and merely need a prop from society. For the latter category I think that we could do worse than revive the medieval concept of banishment.
  I am not talking about transportation, or about the Tolpuddle Martyrs, nor am I suggesting—and I was not when I first raised this ten years ago and was taken to task by the New Statesman—any form of Devil's Island. What I am suggesting is that those who are criminals more through weakness than wickedness should have an option—and I should like to make it an option—to go to one of many
  1050
  islands which are not well inhabited. Scarba off the West Highlands is one which takes my fancy because I am a West Highlander. I mean this seriously. They would have an opportunity of taking their wives and children. They would have reasonable tools to earn their own living and they would have the maximum freedom compatible with the defence of society.
  This type of life would merely separate such weak characters from the bright lights and dog tracks and might be an infinitely more humane way of protecting society from a man who is not vicious but merely weak. I should like him to take his family and have a "local" around the corner and I should like his children to have full schooling facilities. But I would not like to break up his life merely because he is inadequate. The hon. Member who challenged me to produce an idea may think that this is a very bad one. It had a very bad reception when I first introduced it ten years ago, and I am prepared for it to have an even worse one tonight—but I believe that it is one which should be accepted.
  These are the alternatives which I should like to canvass if I am on the Committee dealing with the Bill. There is only one phrase in the Bill at which I should like to cavil. That is the proposal that, for certain categories of firearms offence, "life" should be substituted for 14 years. "Life" is now totally and utterly discredited. Everyone knows that it means on average nine years. People do not realise that many of those sentenced have committed a crime while suffering from a depressive disease and that they are rightly released after six months, when they are cured. Naturally if there is a good number of these people, this reduces the average sentence substantially.
  I suggest that we should use the English language as it is actually employed and substitute for "life" the word "indefinitely". This is what we are discussing. The general public know what "indefinitely" means. They are highly suspicious of a life sentence. This would have the additional advantage that, if ever it were necessary—perish the thought—to send people to prison for life, at least when judgment was passed people would know that the phrase meant what it said.

  1051
  I will not go far into the subject of these relatively few but disastrous cases of people who shoot down policemen in cold blood, from whom the public must be protected probably for all time. It is not within the spirit of this debate that I should go further than that, but I should like my hon. and learned Friend to consider seriously, in the light of possible future legislation, whether the phrase "for life", which would eliminate all hope, is more humane than the death sentence. I do not want to take that any further, but it is often overlooked these days that, if one has spent only one year behind bars, the prospect of another 40 is utterly intolerable and insupportable.
  I have suggested a few other ways in which we could keep people out of prison, because I want to keep prison for the hard core of people. Some of them could respond to treatment if prisons were not overcrowded and the rest of them, although they might have to be confined for the terms of their natural lives, should at least have a natural life which is as happy and as easy as is humanly possible.
  8.14 p.m.
  Mr. George Cunningham: I apologise to the House for intervening in the debate when I have not been present throughout. For that reason if for no other, I shall intervene only briefly.
  One should not rise in the House to speak on a Criminal Justice Bill within seven days of the events of last week without drawing attention to the fact—one can do little more, because it is irrelevant to the Bill—that for the first time in the history of this country, we, or some of us, have in the last week condoned the use of what I would certainly call—and I do not want to use emotive words—torture in British prisons. Little more can be said about that at this time, but it should not pass unnoticed that some hon. Members have lent their authority to the extraction by force of information from prisoners in Northern Ireland.
  A more relevant point is that one of the purposes of the Bill is to review some of the fines which are already on the Statute Book. I suggest that there are many other fines beside those covered
  1052
  in the Bill which are now too low. Some may have started too low, but through inflation many are now too low. It would be a good thing if we got into the habit of having a "fines" Bill from time to time to raise the value of fines to keep pace with inflation.
  There are individual fines which, although not much affected by inflation, have now clearly become too low because of a policy decision. One of these is the fine for the criminal offence of harassing tenants. The Government should have taken the opportunity of this Bill, as they could have done, to honour their pledge in the White Paper, "A Fair Deal for Housing ":
  "The Government will take the earliest legislative opportunity to propose increases in the maximum penalties for harassment and illegal eviction."
  That was an undertaking based on the Francis Committee's recommendation. The Government were clearly saying to the country that they would take the first chance to see that this recommendation was carried out, even though they wanted more time to consider other recommendations.
  This is the second Bill in which it would have been possible for the Government to honour that pledge and the second in which they have not tried to do so. I hope to give them an opportunity to do so by trying to move an Amendment after Second Reading to use the Bill to raise the fines in the 1965 Rent Act to the levels recommended by the Francis Committee. This might entail consequential Amendment to the Long Title, but the Government should consider it very seriously in the light of their public pledge.
  The principal item in the Bill which interests me is the probation service. I would urge the Under-Secretary to pay close attention to, and, hopefully, to implement, the recommendations which will be made in the very near future by the Expenditure Committee, one of whose sub-committees has been looking at this subject over the summer months.
  There is a great deal of feeling in the probation service about the possible risk that the service in England and Wales will be merged with the social welfare departments of local authorities, as it has already been merged in Scotland. The Scottish experiment has not been in operation nearly long enough for us to

  1053
  be able to judge whether it has been a success. Some members of the bench in Scotland certainly do not think so.
  There is another consideration. The unified social welfare departments in England and Wales have been built up rapidly, and their bosses have been appointed all at once throughout the whole country. Without disrespect to them, some of those people might not have occupied the positions to which they were appointed had probation officers been free to apply for the jobs. Given the present quality of the social welfare departments in local authorities, it would not be right to put the probation service into that machine, at least at this time.
  If we are to improve the probation service we must provide more money to employ more probation officers. However, we will get them only if we are prepared to pay them more. It is a disgraceful situation to find in newspapers each week advertisements for half-qualified social workers to start at salaries a couple of hundred above the starting salaries of qualified probation officers.
  I hope the Minister will look carefully at the salary structure as well as at the levels of salary within the probation service. Probation officers suffer from the disadvantage that the service has a flat hierarchy. If we are to recruit probation officers of the quality we have secured in the past, we will have to give them at the age of about 40 a considerable increase in income such as is given to people in other professions when they are promoted to higher grades. Because promotion of this kind is not available in the probation service—in view of the flat nature of the pyramid—we should substitute another means of giving an increase in salary which would normally be obtained at that age.
  May we be told to what extent the Government propose to allocate funds for the establishment of the various new devices provided for in the Bill—bail hostels, training centres and so on? The fact that these will be legally possible will not be sufficient unless the Government are prepared to make a good deal of money available to get these institutions established.
  8.22 p.m.
  Miss Mary Holt: I would have welcomed the Bill with much
  1054
  more confidence had it been more comprehensive. In recent years the public have become extremely concerned by the rising incidence of crime. Numerous speakers have quoted figures to illustrate this point and, while I do not wish to delay the House, a few extra figures will not go amiss.
  In 1938 the number of persons found guilty of indictable offences totalled 78,000. By 1970 the figure had risen to 322,000. The adjusted figures—covering the discrepancy in the law after the passage of the Theft Act, 1968, and prior to that time—for offences of violence against the person known to the police numbered in 1968, 31,000; in 1969, 37,000; and in 1970, 41,000. They have gone up by about 10 per cent. in three years, and the public are rightly concerned about this.
  People are shocked when they see unarmed police officers shot down by ruthless criminals armed with firearms. They are equally alarmed by the growing numbers of hooligans and vandals in our cities. They are shocked when they see criminals enjoying the benefits of suspended sentences, a form of sentencing which has produced so many anomalies that last week's New Law Journal described it as
  "fast becoming our most litigated penal legal sanction, whilst at the same time giving the man in the street the impression that criminals who have been brought before the courts are getting off scot free."
  It is against this background that the Bill must be judged.
  The measures to deal with crimes of violence against the person are limited to increasing the maximum punishment for firearms offences. I wish to be assured that the substitution of life imprisonment for 14 years for committing an offence with intent to endanger life will mean, in this case, detention for the remainder of the person's life and not merely a sentence, with remissions, amounting to less than 14 years.
  The Bill does nothing to protect any further our gallant police officers who must face these criminals. Surely, if the Government could not introduce capital punishment they could at least have provided that in cases of murder of police officers, a sentence of life imprisonment should at least mean detention for the natural life of the criminal.

  1055
  The Bill provides for the disappearance of the automatic suspended sentence, which took from magistrates their discretion in sentencing. This provision led to many anomalies, and I welcome the change.
  There are three other provisions to which I will refer. The first is the introduction of community service orders under which criminals may be ordered to do unpaid work. This is to be welcomed. It is an interesting experiment in sentencing which is well worth trying. After all, filling the leisure time of offenders with useful work to society is sensible and practical. Idle hands are the very things that get people into trouble.
  The second is the codifying of the provisions which relate to the payment of compensation to victims, and I welcome these provisions. The third is the interesting experiment in introducing criminal bankruptcy. This is an imaginative attempt to deprive the criminal of the enjoyment of his ill-gotten gains. It is extraordinary and unrealistic, however, that this provision should be limited to victims who have lost £15,000 or more, as the poorer victims are surely those who most need to recover what they have lost.
  I am disturbed to find that although the victim is to become a creditor in the criminal bankruptcy, there is nothing to make him a preferential creditor. One can imagine that in these cases the Inland Revenue will be the foremost creditor and will collar the whole or substantially the whole of the proceeds, particularly in a case where several crimes are considered together. The other victims, who are perhaps only ordinary creditors, will get a small dividend or nothing.
  I welcome what I regard as an open-minded approach that has been adopted by the Government in dealing with the difficult problem of the criminal law, and I support the Bill.
  8.27 p.m.
  Mr. Edward GardnerIt is a great pleasure to follow in debate my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North (Miss Holt). I, too, share, as I think many hon. Members do, her misgivings about the meaning of life imprisonment and the protection, such as it
  1056
  is, that a sentence of this kind gives to the police. I will comment later on her remarks in this respect.
  I wish, first, to take this advantage of replying to something that was said by the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan). He suggested that the noble Lord, Lord Hailsham, had made a promise when he was in Opposition which he did not keep. As the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East rightly remembered, Lord Hailsham said that he would want a fundamental reappraisal of our penal system. Lord Hailsham kept that promise. It was he who was responsible for setting up a committee of the Society of Conservative Lawyers, which for the last 12 months has been spending a great deal of time trying to come to conclusions which I believe should have been reached by the Royal Commission that was dismantled by the Labour Administration.
  I am most grateful for what has been said by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, my right hon and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Sir D. Renton) and my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) about the work of that committee of the Society of Conservative Lawyers. It would be more than modest of me if I did not recognise the excellence of the Bill's provisions, which implement the proposals made by the Society of Conservative Lawyers.
  Whilst congratulating my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on including such excellent provisions in his Bill, I must press upon him what I believe to be the urgent necessity of considering again what is omitted from the Bill There are many excellent reforms which ought to be in the Bill but which are omitted. In the very short time for which I intend to speak I should like to mention briefly three of the reforms which ought to be in the Bill. One of them, the punishment for murder, has been touched upon by my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North. To satisfy the great disquiet throughout the country about the punishment for murder, the Government ought to introduce a new sentence which would cover not only murder but also persistent violent crime.
  I should like to see an amendment to the rules relating to the caution which

  1057
  police officers have to administer before they can question a suspect. I should also like to see a provision which would reform our jury system on the lines recommended by the Morris Committee.
  As the House well knows, and as the country, too, well appreciates, the only and automatic sentence for murder is life imprisonment, and that is a wholly misleading title. In my view, it is a wholly inadequate punishment for the gravest of all crimes. Many would like to see capital punishment restored to the Statute Book, but they have no hope of persuading this Government or, indeed, any composition of this House, so far as I can anticipate it, to bring back capital punishment. But many of us would like to see this new sentence for murder. I should like to see the trial judge given the discretion of imposing, in proper cases, long sentences of imprisonment on a person convicted of murder. I want an end to this ridiculous anomaly of a person who is convicted of manslaughter, a lesser offence, possibly spending more time in prison than if he had pleaded guilty to murder.
  I want to see this new sentence brought about in this way. At the end of a long determinate sentence for murder, I want the Home Secretary to be given the same powers that he has now in relation to life imprisonment, so that that determinate sentence will be ended by release on licence, which will enable the Home Secretary to recall anyone and will give him that power over that person for that person's life. This kind of sentence would be equally appropriate to deal with those who are convicted of violent crimes and have shown themselves to be of a persistently violent character.
  I turn now to the second reform that I seek to persuade the Government to consider introducing into the Bill: namely, the introduction of some amendment to deal with the present procedure which the police have to follow when they question a suspect. Sir Thomas More held to the principle that a man need never be convicted out of his own mouth, and it is a principle which this House would do well to remember in any reform which it undertakes in relation to the procedure of police questioning.
  1058
  Why, in the case of a suspect who spontaneously wishes to give the police information—which may well be the truth and which may never be heard again—should the police have imposed upon them the fetters of a rule which makes it necessary for them to say to the suspect, "Be careful what you say, because what you say will be taken down in writing and may be given in evidence"? I ask the Government to consider some way of making this rule less of a burden on the police. I want to avoid acquittals of guilty people. At the same time, I am anxious not to put at risk the innocent.
  I turn now to the reform of the jury system. I do not think there is an hon. or right hon. Member in this House who would not willingly agree that our present jury system is hopelessly out of date. The qualification for service on a jury is the qualification of what is called "a householder"—someone who is liable to pay rates. It was a qualification that was arguable as being an inapt and inadequate qualification when introduced, nearly 150 years ago.
  Today, because of this qualification, a vast number of people who otherwise would be qualified to serve on juries by reason of age, experience and position in society are not eligible for jury service. We are getting far too few women and far too few young people serving on juries. The Morris Committee recommended in 1965 that a new qualification be introduced for jury service, to be known as "citizenship". This qualification would be evidenced by inclusion in the parliamentary register as an elector. All such people would be eligible for service as members of a jury, excluding those who could not read, write, speak or understand the English language without difficulty.
  I have exhausted the time I promised I would not exceed, and must end by asking my hon. and learned Friend the Under-Secretary if he will please do something which will enable this reforming Criminal Justice Bill to be a vehicle of those other reforms which, although they do not appear in the Bill, are, in my submission, equally necessary to the proper administration of justice in Britain.
  8.40 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Havers: When one is called at this time of night

  1059
  in a debate which has attracted lawyers on both sides of the House it is usually found that all one's points have been made and that all one's pearls of wisdom have already been spoken. The Bill is imaginative, constructive and logical and, so far as it goes, humane. It will be welcomed by all for those virtues.
  The aspect which will be most attractive to the public is that of community service of which much has been said. It seems that this can be summarised by saying that it provides a half-way house between probation and prison. I very much hope that the experiment will get off the ground quickly, prove successful and that this new provision can be put into force as quickly as possible.
  One of the proposals which attracted me was the power, lacking previously, when a suspended sentence is passed for a court to make a probation order to run with it. There have been many complaints from judges over the past four years that they were not allowed to make any sort of probation order at the time they felt that a man sentenced to a suspended sentence most needed the support of the probation service. It is rather ironic that the hon. Member for Bradford, East (Mr. Edward Lyons) should criticise this variation. It must make my right hon. Friend feel, "How can I ever get it right and satisfy everyone?"
  The compensation order follows very much what was dealt with in a report—again I am "plugging" the Conservative Lawyers' Society—published a few months ago. My hon. and learned Friend has not gone as far as I would like him to go. He has made some provision in the sense that there is power to defer a sentence for six months, enabling a court to see what steps have been taken by an offender to repay. In the report it was suggested that the term should be 18 months and that resolution to repay should be buttressed by the support of the probation service. It would immediately be said that it is too much for the service, but the very senior probation officer who served on that Committee was confident that this could be taken on. and I ask my hon. and learned Friend to look at this again and see whether the provision could not be extended.
  The mandatory suspension of imprisonment for six months or less is to go. This
  1060
  is a very good idea and will meet with general approval. Here I support instead of criticising the hon. Member for Bradford, East in what he said about Section 3 of the 1961 Act. It is a restriction upon sentencing those who are between the ages of 17 and 21 which has met with unmitigated contempt and reproach from the bench. It is something about which I have never heard a kind word from any judge.
  The point of this can be realised when dealing with two men, one of whom is 20 and really the ringleader, and the other is aged 22. The offences are serious and cannot be overlooked. The 22-year-old man deserves a 12 to 18 month sentence but it would be monstrously unfair and unjust to send him away for that time if the same sentence were not given to the ringleader who by chance is two years younger. The law prevents that happening. He has to be given six months or three years—which is much to long—or borstal, which is probably inappropriate. I invite my hon. and learned Friend, when the time comes, to consider whether Clause 10 should not also do away with these provisions which have been much criticised.
  Clause 28 is most interesting. It provides a power which in a sense sounds rather like the old Court of Crown Cases reserved to the Court of Appeal to consider points which would not ordinarily get to it. I know of one or two judges who have said in the past, "I had to rule in favour of the accused and direct an acquittal. I am sure that was the right thing to do but I would have loved to have ruled the other way so that the point could be taken to the Court of Appeal where it could have been freshly considered."
  Now it can go to the court. I take the objection made by the hon. and learned Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. Peter Archer) when he says that this could lead to a great deal of difficulty for an acquitted man who did not intend to pursue the matter in the Court of Appeal, which I suspect would be more than likely. Having been discharged he would probably not want to do anything else. I can see complications following because if it is an interesting point of law it will get in the law reports and may attract attention in ordinary newspapers. That may mean

  1061
  that a man, let us call him Mr. Smith, will have the whole of his case tried again on a point of law in the Court of Appeal and it is almost inevitable, if the decision of the trial judge which resulted in an acquittal is reversed, that people will say to him, "You were jolly lucky; you ought to have been convicted".
  There is a short way round this. It would be rather fun to go back to the John Doe cases. In the old days, John Doe was a fictional name to be used in cases like this when points such as these were to be decided. If we used consecutive numbers with the name, John Doe 1, John Doe 2, John Doe 3, and so on, we should instantly indicate to any practitioner that this was one of those rare cases which had gone after acquittal to the Court of Appeal. This would mean that there could be no question of the acquitted man being identified and therefore no stigma if the Court of Appeal reversed the decision. This, again, is a matter for consideration by the Government. Generally, I regard this as a first-class Bill and I welcome it.
  8.45 p.m.
  Mr. Norman Fowler: It is a pleasure to follow two of my hon. Friends who, through the Society of Conservative Lawyers, have made a direct contribution to the Bill, with at times the help of a few quasi-lawyers on their various working parties.
  I welcome the Bill above all because it is realistic. That can be illustrated by the different ways in which it deals with the two extremes of the criminal league, the professional criminal and the petty offender. For the professional criminal the increase in maximum penalties for offences with firearms is particularly important and it hardly needs emphasising that offences concerning firearms have increased in the last few years.
  What concerns us most is this class of criminal, the fairly young professional criminal. One of the most difficult and one of the most acute problems that society faces is exactly how we deter this kind of criminal. As do many of my hon. Friends, I like to believe that the police detection rate has an effect upon crime. I like to believe the conventional theory that a high police detection rate will have an effect in deterring
  1062
  crime. But however that may be generally, it does not have an application to this kind of young professional criminals
  This was the point made by the two senior London policemen in their interview in The Times. I do not by any means agree with everything they said, but on this point I think they were right. They confirmed conversations which I have had in maximum security prisons with Category A and sometimes the hardly-less-serious Category B offenders. Many of these are exactly the young professional criminals who, up to prison, have lived by crime and who carry arms and who plan their robberies. If the theory of high detection rates had general application, it would apply to them, but in a space of a few years these men have a whole string of convictions behind them and criminal careers stretching from borstal to maximum security prison.
  In spite of that, in spite of all the evidence of their own careers, they continue to commit crimes and many clearly intend to go back to committing crimes. They regard prison as an unpleasant but necessary price for following their profession. More than that, in spite of a whole career of failure, they stick to the rather childlike belief that the next crime will be the successful one.
  It is true that some of the older criminals take a rather different view. They are worried by detection and, perhaps more than anything else, by the probability of receiving a really long prison sentence. But as I believe that the young professional criminals cannot be deterred in these normal ways, I think that, in these particular instances, the Bill's provisions with regard to criminals who carry arms are necessary, not as a deterrent but for their own sake. In some ways that is regrettable, but inevitably we have to accept it.
  But none of this in any way implies that all prisoners are of the same criminal seriousness. At the other end of the scale are those for whom prison in inappropriate, because there is clearly very little that it can achieve for them. In Pentonville one finds alcoholics, and other prisoners who have severe drink problems. Almost invariably their offences are petty and their sentences short. The only thing that prison achieves for them is, perhaps, to dry them out. But they

  1063
  go out again. They go into the world—to the Salvation Army Hostel first, and then to sleeping rough, and then by another petty offence they are back in prison. The truth is that prison cannot tackle these men's basic problems. Prison staffs have neither the time nor the facilities for this. Yet these are the men who, wherever they should be, most certainly should not be in prison.
  That is why I welcome the other main strand in the Bill which provides alternatives to prison sentences. It is a great tribute to the Bill that it recognises this need so clearly, and in many of is provisions concentrates on providing those alternatives. I do not claim that the alternatives to prison will be the whole answer to our present problem—clearly not—but we have a duty to try to develop them to the fullest extent.
  The parole scheme has been much criticised—I think wrongly so. A study of the figures shows that parole is one of the few penal schemes in the last few years that has been an undoubted success. Only 3 per cent. of prisoners released have had to be recalled for committing further offences. That is a very formidable success rate. I agree that it is not the whole story, but it at least indicates that there is no great danger to the public in releases of this kind.
  The scheme is capable of being extended. At present, parole is considered only after the prisoner has served 12 months in prison. If it were considered after he had served eight months in prison, another 3,600 prisoners would be eligible, and the full effect would be to reduce the present prison population by about 600—in other words, by about a whole new prison.
  I do not want to push this suggestion now, because the success of the parole scheme has to a large extent been due to the cautious and sensible way in which Hunt and his colleagues have handled it, and the way in which I believe they have taken public opinion with them. But I should like confirmation that my hon. and learned Friend has not forgotten this potential for expansion of the scheme and that this is a step that could be taken.
  I am very happy with the Bill. It tackles some of the real problems of crime. It deserves support. Incidentally, this is the first debate on crime we have had since I became a Member in July,
  1064
  1970. I hope very much that we shall not again have to wait 15 months for another debate of this type.
  8.55 p.m.
  Mr. Laurance Reed: Most Members have voiced the public's disquiet about the increasing lawlessness and violence in our society, but, in my view, there is a group of crimes more disturbing than any other. I refer to sabotage, terrorism and other crimes which can be loosely grouped under the generic term "political acts of violence". I am disappointed that the Bill not only does not make any provision for tackling these crimes but seems to make no recognition of them. I should have thought that at the very least the provisions relating to firearms could have been extended to cover the use of explosives which endanger human life. These omissions are remarkable because increasingly people in public life are becoming the objects of threats and attack from extremists, anarchists and other subversive groups who believe that they have the right to use violence at any level to achieve their political ends.
  The use of force to bring social or political change raises some interesting philosophical points. I believe that it is morally justifiable in a totalitarian State but totally indefensible in a democratic society where there are proper channels for pursuing change by peaceful means. Certainly no free State could long tolerate such crimes and remain free. Unless we treat these acts with the utmost severity, we could be driven towards greater repression, as has happened in Northern Ireland.
  Parliament has always looked upon offences against the State as the most heinous of all crimes, not simply because the degree of violence used can end in multiple killings, but because they are directed towards the overthrow of the whole basis of legal order. The fundamental requirement in any society is the ability to protect itself against subjugation, and the chief duty of any Government is to safeguard the State and its institutions against external and internal attack. A Government which fails in this duty cannot provide, let alone ensure, the freedom and stability necessary for people to live their lives in peace, and without such a guarantee of stability the rest of law, whether civil or criminal, is largely rendered void.

  1065
  It is for that reason that the law has always looked upon subversion and insurrection as the most serious of crimes. Surely it is significant that Parliament, while it has seen fit to do away with the capital sentence for almost all offences, has retained it for treason. This is not an anomalous or historic relic. I believe that it is an act of deliberate policy springing from the recognition that in times of civil unrest and disturbance the judiciary must have the ultimate sanction at its disposal.
  It is, therefore, very difficult to argue why the death sentence should not also be available for acts of sabotage or terrorism which result in the loss of human life or for any killing done or caused in the furtherance of political aims since the objective is one and the same. In fact, in most cases it appears that terrorism constitutes a treasonable act punishable by death and it is only the policy of the Attorney-General which prevents people who perpetrate these crimes from being prosecuted under this head. I do not propose to deal tonight with the question whether we should go that far, but I urge the Minister to consider the adequacy of the penalties for these offences and to see whether the law can be strengthened through the Bill.
  This year there have been violent explosions at the Post Office Tower and at public installations, and there have been assassination attempts against two Cabinet Ministers, the Attorney-General, two junior Ministers and the chief of the Metropolitan Police. As politicians we ought to remember that while we may be principal targets of terrorists we at least can be given police protection around the clock, but that the people we represent are also vulnerable and are not so easily shielded.
  9.0 p.m.
  Sir Elwyn Jones: The House in this wide-ranging debate, in which suggestions have ranged from banishment to the return of the rope and the lash, comes once again face to face with the problem of how we should tackle the threat of crime in our society. Last year I attended a conference of Ministers of Justice of Governments belonging to the Council of Europe. Increase in crime, and in particular increase in violent crime, was found to be a feature common to all our countries. What else
  1066
  emerged was that there was neither a simple explanation nor a simple solution. The problem of violence is on the increase all over the world whether the Governments concerned are liberal Governments or oppressive Governments, and indeed, we in this country suffer rather less than most others.
  The penal system, the courts and the prisons, have their part to play in dealing with this problem, but to attribute the increase in crime mainly to faults in that system, as has lately been done, in my view is wholly unjustifiable and misguided. As the Professor of Criminology at Cambridge has put it:
  "The penal system may be able to rehabilitate some, to deter some, but it cannot get at the currents of crime deep in society."
  It is, at any rate, gratifying that the Government have resisted pressures from the get-tough school—and we have heard one or two voices from that school speaking stridently in this debate; and this Bill, for the most part, reflects the trend of our penal system in recent years to use discrimination in the treatment of offenders, to concentrate resources on the very small minority of really dangerous criminals and to give every chance of rehabilitation to those who are likely to respond.
  As has been indicated more than once in this debate, this Bill comes before the House at a critical time in our prison system. The Prison Rules of 1964 said that
  "the purpose of the training and treatment of convicted prisoners shall be to encourage and assist them to lead a good and useful life."
  As has been emphasised many times today, the fact is that the overcrowding in our prisons and borstals gives those words a rather hollow ring. At present, for instance, many young offenders are kept for up to six months in local prisons and allocation centres waiting for places at borstal.
  I am not saying for a moment that the problem is simple. It existed in the time when we were in office. It is of course, the case that we shall continue to need prisons so long as vicious and cruel enemies of society exist and continue to commit the atrocious crimes which they do commit. But the deplorable feature of our present arrangements is that many

  1067
  men and women are in prison unnecessarily—and this has been a common theme in the debate—unnecessarily from the point of view both of the protection of the community and of their own future good. The Home Secretary seemed at one point in his speech to be agreeing with this proposition to the point of indicating that only violent criminals should be imprisoned, and we were expecting any moment an announcement of a dramatic amnesty which, if that principle were applied, would mean the emptying of most of our gaols overnight. But the governing words "wherever possible" quickly put an end to the illusion.
  However, it is the case, as has been pointed out—and here is a sphere where something can be done, I think, to reduce the prison population, namely, to reduce the number of people in prison awaiting trial. Every year about 40,000 accused persons are remanded in custody awaiting trial. Of these, about 2,000 are eventually acquitted and about 20,000 are convicted but not given a custodial sentence. Several hundred persons wait for over three months in custody and are utimately acquitted. In 1969, 105 persons who were subsequently acquitted or discharged were held in custody for 11 weeks or more on remand or awaiting trial. Many persons tried summarily before magistrates are remanded in custody. As many as 10 per cent. of our prison population at any one time may consist of prisoners awaiting trial.
  Something must be done about this, as has been said most eloquently by my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, Central (Mr. Clinton Davis) and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman). and from the other side of the House. The Lord Chancellor pleads that something should be done, and it is high time that what is said is listened to in the courts.
  The other aspect of a reduction in the prison population has been well expressed in an article by Mr. Alec Samuels in the Contemporary Review of July this year. He points out that, apart from the hard core of professional and often dangerous prisoners, the category A and B prisoners, many, at any rate, if not most, offenders
  1068
  who are in prison are pathetic, socially and personally inadequate men who in themselves represent no security problem, and they are usually to be found in local or open prisons. As has been said on both sides of the House, with particular eloquence by the hon. Member for Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) and by the hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Fowler), what is needed for this type of prisoner is treatment in non-prison institutions.
  It is gratifying that the Bill provides for drying-out centres for alcoholics—a singularly unattractive description of the institution, but no doubt it meets the needs of the case. Similarly, there should be provision in the Bill for treatment for drug addicts in institutions, for the mentally ill in hospitals and for the feckless and work-shy in appropriate training and disciplinary institutions short of prisons. All these measures will result in the reduction of the prison population, which has now become an urgent necessity in our penal system.
  There is a particular group of prisoners about whom something could and should be done at once—those who are kept in prison for medical examination. They are identified by Dr. Gibbens and Mrs. Dell in their report which is published in Medicine, Science and Law. It was found that 80 per cent. of the women who were in prison for medical examination were released on sentence. The report rightly urged the Home Office urgently to develop facilities so that offenders can be examined on bail by, first, expanding the provision at National Health Service out-patients' clinics to allow offenders to get appointments for psychiatric assessment without undue delay, and. secondly. by introducing outpatient facilities at remand centres and prison hospitals so that doctors can readily examine bailed offenders. These are measures which can fairly easily be implemented. and I should like to know whether anything is being done with regard to them.
  In opening the debate, the Home Secretary properly considered the question whether the Bill will be helpful in reducing the prison population. That is a fundamentally important approach to the Bill. I agree that to a limited extent it should have that effect, and for that reason we commend the Bill.

  1069
  The most imaginative and hopeful provision in the Bill, and one which may help to reduce the prison population, is the proposal that the criminal courts should be empowered to require offenders to carry out service to the community. This proposal commends itself to almost every penal philosopher. Though it deprives the offender of his leisure and to that extent is punitive, it is more constructive and cheaper than a short term of imprisonment. It also emphasises reparation to the community.
  This would appear to add a new dimension to our penal system and may help to bring offenders in close touch with their fellow citizens who most need help and support. It is to be hoped that in the process of this work offenders will see the value of service to the community and will see themselves as having some value to the community. The drop-out in many ways is one of the most tragic features of our society. Therefore, we strongly commend this proposal.
  Experiments in this field have already been carried out in co-operation between the Home Office and bodies such as the I.V.S. I am sure there is an abundance of opportunity for community service both in work with or for individuals and in constructional projects.
  I was very glad to hear the Home Secretary refer to the projects which were contemplated. One of my hon. Friends was a little worried, as are others, that these men and women, young and old, will be called upon to do only dreary and rather degrading work. However, the House will have noted the kind of work that is contemplated. It includes the construction of adventure playgrounds; clearing beaches and country paths; helping with reclamation projects and restoring canals; and cleaning up churchyards—and, my goodness, how that needs to be done! Most of our churchyards are a disgrace to the living and the dead. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Well, perhaps I should substitute the word "many" for the word "most". I am sure few would quarrel with that proposition. However, I must not be diverted from my theme. Many useful proposals are contemplated in work for the community service.
  It is right to sound a warning note that too much should not be expected from
  1070
  the scheme too soon, and it is likely to be rather patchy. Some areas have no satisfactory community service operating and there will be problems in some rural areas. But the scheme should be practicable in all urban areas.
  It is a little hard that local authorities should pay half the cost, and perhaps this matter may be more carefully examined in Committee. The sub-committee on whose report these proposals are made carefully examined the question of who should administer this community service and rightly concluded that the functions would be most appropriately assigned to the probation service.
  There is no doubt that several proposals in the Bill will impose added burdens upon the probation service, and I am glad that the Vice-Chancellor of Warwick University is to be asked to consider the remuneration and conditions of employment of probation officers. I do not know whether his inquiry will be confined to those matters. Perhaps we shall have some elaboration on that point.
  It will be interesting to hear the extent to which the probation service has been consulted about the additional burdens which will be imposed upon it. One's impression is that probation officers are very hard pressed to do what they are presently called upon to do. We on this side of the House would like to know what discussions there have been and what is contemplated to enable the probation and after-care service to cope with this work.
  At present, I think that the service is in a state of rather low morale, partly because of the comparison of its pay structure with that of others employed in social work for local authorities, but partly due also to uncertainty about the future of the service. We should like to hear a little more on the subject from the Under-Secretary.
  In this part of the scheme of the Bill, it will be very important to channel more resources not only to local authorities but also to voluntary organisations. My experience of some of them is that they have to spend far too much of their time at the moment scratching round for the odd £100. As voluntary organisations are to be at the heart of the community service idea, I hope that we shall see a more generous approach from the Government to their financing and to the

  1071
  provision of facilities. In the long run, it is through improving the environment as a whole—through education, the social services, and housing—that we can best hope to influence the crime rate. But we can do other things short of that major necessity.
  I come now to the other non-custodial ideal which the Committee proposed and which the Bill adopts, namely, deferment of sentence. This is not the first time that we have discovered that Scotland has been doing sensible things for a very long time which we could benefit by adopting. I refer not only to Scotland's distinguished discovery of whisky in this connection.
  I understand that deferring sentences after conviction takes place in Scotland in about 500 cases a year, most of them in the sheriff court, where I understand that the practice has proved quite beneficial. According to Lady Wootton's Report, the former Lord Chief Justice, on behalf of the higher judiciary, opposed this proposal. However, I agree with the Committee's view that a power to defer sentence will be a useful addition to the penal armoury.
  As for suspended sentences, in the light of experience I am not disposed to quarrel with what is proposed in Clause 10, especially in view of the provisions in Clause 13(2). But I understand that I may incur the displeasure of my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Dell) in submitting so willingly to what is proposed in the Bill. I wait with interest to hear the Under-Secretary's replies to my right hon. Friend's probing questions on this subject.
  It has been a very sad story. What was intended to be a means of reducing the number of persons committed to custody appears to have had the opposite effect because, unfortunately, the courts used suspended sentences as alternatives to fines or probation. There were fewer fines and probation orders, and the long-term result was that the numbers failing while under suspended sentence and then being sent to gaol exceeded what was ment to be saved on direct committals.
  The proposals for compensation, restitution and criminal bankruptcy orders are, as has been indicated, the outcome of a highly technical report by the Widgery Committee. There is un-
  1072
  doubtedly considerable public concern that offenders should be required to recompense their victims, but the report indicates that there are many difficulties in the way of its proposals. I imagine that the Home Office has no illusions that not a great deal will be recovered from the offender as a result of the proposals in the Bill. However, Clauses 1 to 9 extend the courts' powers and tidy up the law in this respect. It may be that in appropriate cases the courts will make increasing use of those powers.
  The right hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes) submitted these proposals to searching analysis. It is clear that intractable problems have to be faced. The main difficulty is that often the loot or the profit from crime will have been dissipated before the criminal is brought before the court. By the time he is in the dock he is often not worth powder and shot. I think that in no country have the obstacles to effective reparation by the offender been satisfactorily overcome.
  There is likely to be a good deal of overlapping regarding remedying the losses suffered by the victims of crime. The victim can, of course, seek damages in tort, but this can be a pretty expensive business. At the end of the day the victim may, as the Committee points out, have nothing to show for his litigation but his solicitor's bill for costs. It is significant that the Chairman of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board, in the last report, said that, of the many thousands of cases with which it dealt, there were only six in which it felt that it could usefully have sued the offender if it had power to do so. Under the proposals of the Bill, the victim would have the advantage of an immediate award where this could be made, and he would not need to take any initiative to obtain it.
  In this context it may soon become necessary—I invite the House to consider this point—to examine the set-up of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board. That scheme has operated on a non-statutory and ex gratia basis since it was set up in 1964. In 1970–71 over £2 million of public funds was paid in compensation to victims of criminal injury. The Board obviously does its work with immense care. In suggesting that perhaps the time has come for its working and structure to be looked at, I am not

  1073
  implying any criticism of its work. But I cannot help detecting from the last paragraph of the chairman's report for this year, dealing with staff, that there has been too much movement of staff arising from the fact that the Board's staff is provided by secondment from the Home Office. This is one of the several problems in this sphere which I think needs our urgent consideration.
  I turn now to criminal bankruptcy which was much trumpeted in the Press. As the right hon. Member for Ashford so eloquently pointed out, the practical problems to which it gives rise are considerable. The resources of the bankruptcy services are already severely overstretched. Yet the uncovering, realisation, and distribution of the assets of offenders through bankruptcy procedures would indeed be a formidable job. Professional crooks are not easily caught with funds which can be seized.
  However, it is worth while to try this process, although it will clearly be on an experimental basis. The report contemplates only a handful of cases being dealt with each year. This is a sphere where great expectations have been raised by propaganda but where the practical result may prove to be minimal.
  There are many other provisions in the Bill which we shall want to examine carefully in Committee. The success of the provision in Clause 19 for day training centres will depend on the staffs which can be obtained to run them, and we shall want to study the content of the rules, which we hope will be available before or at the Committee stage.
  Provisions for increases in fines for breaches of probation are presumably intended to keep up with the inflationary trend. As to Clauses 22 and 23, I think that these will need careful study in Committee. Clause 23, in particular introduces a new principle of providing for driving disqualification as a punishment for offences other than those connected with motor vehicles. The problem is that thieves will steal cars anyway. But if the evidence given to us in Committee shows that the proposal will make things harder for criminals I think that we on this side of the House will be inclined to support it. But a real problem exists here, and the hon. Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Miscampbell) raised it, although the hon. Member for Dorset,
  1074
  North (Mr. David James) strongly supported the proposals—such is the many-sidedness of truth.
  The Clause dealing with firearms has been much heralded, but whether increasing the penalty to imprisonment for life will make any difference is. I think, doubtful. The hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) spoke on this matter, and it is the case that out of 7,000 successful prosecutions relating to firearms the average sentence imposed by the courts was about 4 per cent. of the permitted sentence.
  I doubt whether much good will be done by increasing the maximum sentence, and for my part I think that there is a good deal to be said for the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner in another place that if a criminal uses a gun for the furtherance of his crime then, in addition to the sentence that he gets for his offence, he should have a five-year fixed punishment for carrying a firearm—an interesting suggestion which I think we should consider.
  On this question of firearms, I feel that there is a good deal of force in what was said by the hon. Member for Blackpool, North, namely, that there is a need for us to examine how effective the controls on the acquisition and possession of guns, revolvers, and so on, have proved to be. We are still apparently in the situation where any criminal who wants a gun seems to know where to get one.
  As to Clause 26 which deals with the power of policemen to take drunken offenders to treatment centres, this is obviously a useful provision, provided that the police use it. How many medical treatment centres for alcoholics exist now? How many are contemplated? Where will they be? Perhaps we shall be told.
  Clause 27 makes a small and sensible change which will relieve overloading of the parole board. As to Clause 28, we shall have to look carefully at this in Committee. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North has expressed concern that it might prejudice a man who has already been acquitted. But it may well be, as the hon. and learned Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Havers) said, that it will be possible to cloak the proceedings in anonymity, not only by using the formula

  1075
  of John Doe, but by ingenious care to ensure that the facts do not identify the persons concerned. At any rate, it cannot be contemplated that it will be tried very often, because only £5,000 a year is provided for the operation, and that will not cover many counsel appearing in many cases.
  Clauses 38 and 39 provide for the setting up of a whole series of hostels, including new bail hostels. This is obviously a very important proposal. The key here is finance, and I hope that we shall hear that adequate finance will be made available.
  Clause 42 has been described as an excellent piece of nationalisation without compensation. Local authority gaols are not to revert to them but are to be taken over. What has Islington said to this, with its Pentonville and its Holloway? What sound has come from there? I have no doubt that this proposal is necessary. I am told that they have no objection, which shows how enlightened Islington is.
  Although we on this side will subject the Bill to careful scrutiny in Committee, on the whole we give it a welcome and wish it progress.
  9.31 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Mark Carlisle): Having heard all but 10 minutes of this debate and missed only the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Miscampbell)—I apologise for that, but he was very effectively brief—I believe that everyone will agree that this has been an extremely interesting debate which will clearly lead to a fairly lengthy Committee stage. I have been asked many questions, some of which I will try to answer tonight and some of which I am afraid I will have to try to answer in Committee.
  Everyone will agree, I think, that the vast majority of the speeches have been constructive and reasonable. I am not sure, with respect to the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr Callaghan), whether the adjectives "constructive and reasonable" would apply to parts of his speech, but I will deal with one or two of his other points.
  I should like to start by complimenting and congratulating my hon. Friend the
  1076
  Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) on his maiden speech. I do so not only as a colleague in the House but as a neighbouring Member of Parliament. Certainly, anyone who heard him must have been impressed by the cogency, the clarity and the confidence with which his speech was delivered.
  I made my maiden speech on a similar subject. Although I drew rather different conclusions and answers from those of my hon. Friend, I certainly did not deliver my speech with anywhere near the confidence and clarity with which he addressed the House. I am sure that we look forward to hearing him speak many times on many subjects. However, as I said, I did not necessarily accept all of what he said.
  As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said, this debate has taken place against a background of continuing concern about continually increasing crime. Although it is right to welcome the fact that, over the past few years, one can discern at least a slowing down in the rate of increase in crime, compared to that which applied in the late 1950s and early 1960s, what worries people both in the House and outside is not so much the rate at which the increase is going as the fact that every year the figure seems to be higher than it was the year before.
  As my right hon. Friend said, what particularly worries people is that, within that figure, there is a far greater increase in crimes of violence. I will attempt to put that into proportion by reminding the House that, grave as it is, the number of crimes of violence amounts to only 2½ per cent. of all indictable crimes committed, and they themselves cover a wide spectrum, from the most serious crimes of violence at one end to quite minor sorts at the other.
  I must take up one point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield because his remark about the statistics of murder put out by the Home Office being a myth was not correct. If one takes the years 1957 to 1970, one finds that the murder figures per year varied from between 110 and 150. In 1957 the figure was 135 and in 1970 it was 137.
  Whereas it is right to say that in 1957 the law was changed regarding manslaughter to allow for the offence of diminished responsibility, there has been

  1077
  no change in the law regarding manslaughter since 1957. When one is taking the figures for the last 13 years, since capital punishment was automatically the sentence given for murder, there has been no change and, therefore, the figures are accurate year by year.
  When, for purposes of comparison, the Home Office compares post-1957 figures of murder with pre-1957 figures, it always includes, for the purpose of comparison, Section 2 manslaughter cases, which before 1957 would have counted as murder.
  I felt that I should say that at once because what my hon. Friend described as a myth is itself a myth which has been circulated freely outside the House but which I do not believe has any validity in casting doubt on the figures put out by the Home Office.
  The major defence against crime must, as we have always said, be the likelihood of detection. This will remain the greatest deterrent. We must, therefore, lay great emphasis on the maintenance of a strong and efficient police force. As the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East chose to question what my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said, I must take up his challenge about police recruitment. The position is clear. Although recruitment was going extremely well up to the end of 1967, the right hon. Gentleman's decision to limit recruitment into the police force at that stage had the effect which we, then in opposition, told him it would have, that of practically drying up recruitment into the police force.
  The right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East challenged my right hon. Friend to tell him what the figures were over the last period. I have them with me and I will give the right hon. Gentleman first the figures which he may regard as the best example from the point of view of his argument; they are the figures in terms of financial years. After a net increase in recruitment of 3,655 in the financial year to the end of March, 1968, as a result of the imposition of a ceiling, recruitment dropped to a net increase of 499 in 1969 and 878 in 1970. Any restriction on recruitment was then removed, and I am happy to say that last year there was a net increase of recruitment into the police force of 2,028. In the first seven months of
  1078
  this financial year there has been a net increase of more than 1,900.
  I do not understand what the right hon. Gentleman meant when he said that he handed on to my right hon. Friend a higher rate of police recruitment than we have today. In the 18 months before the election, right up to June of last year, there was a net increase of recruitment into the police force of 2,042. In the 16 months since then there has been a net increase of 3,923.
  Mr. Callaghan: I did not raise the question of police. What I raised was the disparity between the words of the Opposition spokesmen before the election and what they were doing after the election. I spent a large part of my speech talking about it, and that was what prompted the hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Mr. Fowler) to intervene on the question of police. But as we are talking about the figures, I happen to have with me a statement given to me by the Home Office shortly before I left office. The strength for 1964 was 80,680. At the end of 1969 it was 91,762. That is an increase, during the period of the Labour Government, of 11,082, an average of 2.216 per year. I ask the House to note that. In the first four months of 1970 recruitment was running, according to Home Office figures, at the rate of 812 in those four months. I did not get figures for May. In other words, it was running at a rate of 2,400 a year. That is far larger, even if there were a fall-off in the second half of the year, than right hon. Gentlemen opposite can produce. I do not want to bandy statistics, but if they are to be bandied about—and this is what hon. Gentlemen opposite were doing before the election—let it be clearly on record that the increase in strength during the lifetime of the Labour Government, five years, with variations between one year and another, was far larger than any Conservative Government managed to achieve.
  Mr. Carlisle: The trouble with the right hon. Gentleman is that he has never understood the case against him. It is not that recruiting was not going well in 1967, 1966 or 1965; it is that his actions as Chancellor of the Exchequer led to devaluation, which then caused him, as Home Secretary, to impose a ceiling on recruitment, which led to a disastrous falling off.
  Mr. Callaghan: Did the figures go up?
  Mr. Carlisle: I have always said to the right hon. Gentleman that during the five years the figures went up and they were going very well until he intervened to prevent them; they were going very well until he took office.
  Mr. Callaghan: With respect, they are not going better than when we left office. The figures for the first four months of 1970 show an increase of 812. Over the remaining eight months, as far as I can make out from the hon. and learned Gentleman's figures, there was an increase of only 1,000. They have been going worse since the Conservative Party came to office. I hope they will go better, but the hon. and learned Gentleman will have to steam hard if he is to approach anything like the figures of the Labour Government.
  Mr. Carlisle: The right hon. Gentleman is obviously taking the calendar year. If he takes the first four months, I accept the figure of 800. The figure for the first eight months of 1971 is 2,020. But if one doubles 800, one still gets fewer than 2,020.
  I leave that subject now and return to the Bill. If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to pursue this, he must not get excited.
  Mr. Callaghan: I am not excited.
  Mr. Carlisle: I do not know what will happen when the right hon. Gentleman does get excited.
  The effect of the increase in crime is an addition in the prison population, which has therefore led to the situation we have heard talked about by all sides of the House today, in which, although happily the figure has been consistent at 40,000 since May, 1971, nevertheless there is gross overcrowding, with some 13,000 living two or three in a cell.
  It is against that background that the Bill must be judged, and against that background the Bill is relevant and constructive. As my right hon. Friend said—although I accept the remark of the hon. Member for Hackney, Central (Mr. Clinton Davis) that to a certain extent the Bill was a hotch-potch, as any Criminal Justice Bill must be—running through the Bill there are clearly two themes, first, the strengthening of the
  1080
  powers of the courts to deal with those who appear before them, particularly to give a more central position to the principle involved in compensation; second. to provide further alternatives to imprisonment for dealing with the lesser offender, whose presence inside the prison system tends to increase the overcrowding and to hinder any chance one has of doing anything with the other people who are there.
  If we look at the Bill clearly, it will be seen that the increase in the penalties for possession of firearms, bankruptcy, powers of forfeiture and disqualification. the abolition of mandatory suspended sentences and the provisions with regard to compensation are there to strengthen the powers of the court. Community service, deferment of sentence, attendance at day training centres and the power of probation and after-care committees to set up hostels and bail hostels are further alternatives to imprisonment.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes) said that it was important to realise the limitations of the criminal bankruptcy scheme and not to expect too much of it. I agree. I hope that this will be carefully considered in Committee because I would be the first to admit that it has grave limitations. It is a very rough and ready means of creating bankruptcy. We have to realise that it is not so much aimed at achieving an equitable distribution among the victims as ensuring an adequate removal of the spoils from the criminal. If we look at it in that way we can see where it fits in to the criminal system although I hope that we shall have long arguments about the details in Committee.
  I was asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North (Miss Holt) why the figure of £15,000 had been used. The answer is simply that it is experimental. We have been strongly advised, and the Widgery Committee recommended, that it was wrong to make major changes in the bankruptcy law until we were satisfied of the efficacy of the scheme. The Bill takes power to lower that figure of £15,000 if it is found that this is useful. I can assure my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashford and other hon. Members that the limitations are well known to us and that we would value any assistance in Committee in trying to smooth out these various problems.

  1081
  The same applies to the proposals on compensation. They were described by the hon. and learned Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) as rough and ready. There was a misunderstanding in the course of the debate about the purpose of these proposals. They do not interfere with the power of the civil courts to order compensation. They do not interfere with the power of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board to make payments. They are not, and were never intended to be, a means by which the court at the end of a criminal trial should make an accurate assessment of the full amount of damage suffered by a person. By devising a simplified and more comprehensive system to deal with compensation it is hoped that the courts will use it more widely to grant some payment in respect of injury or loss suffered.
  It is not suggested, in the case of serious injury, that the criminal court can be expected at the end of a trial to make an accurate assessment of loss. It may be felt useful, particularly in the smaller cases, for a court to have the power to order the criminal to compensate the victim to some degree. I assure the House that the Bill specifically requires that in determining what compensation should be paid, the court must take into account the means of the criminal rather than the victim. It will be part of the penalty.
  I was asked many questions about the suspended sentence but in view of the time I will have to ask whether I may answer the right hon. Gentleman's questions in detail in Committee. The difficulty is that from the research which we have done we can tell the effect that suspended sentences have had on the number of sentences of imprisonment imposed and the length of those sentences but we cannot tell what has been the effect of the mandatory provisions because we do not know and cannot tell from the statistics whether it was the fact that the mandatory provisions were available which made a court decide to suspend a sentence in one instance when, if it had been left discretion, it would have chosen not to do so.
  But what is quite clear is that the mandatory provisions have been proved to be wholly unpopular with those who have had to administer them. There is clear
  1082
  evidence that suspended sentences have been used more widely than was intended and also that the sentences given have been longer than they would have been if the man had been going down the steps at that time. One of the effects of the mandatory provisions has been—and this is only my own assessment—that when a court has been forced to suspend, it has said that if it had to suspend, rather than giving one month, which had been intended, it would give six months and suspend that sentence.
  When there was a period of three years for suspension, a person might keep out of trouble for two and a half years and then come before the court again, so that the court was faced with the dilemma of carrying out the intention of the suspended sentence, namely, that it should automatically operate, or say that so much had happened since that it must change the original decision. For that reason we are right to reduce the maximum period for suspension from three years to two years.
  I must say that as a member of the Standing Committee which considered the Criminal Justice Bill in 1967 I welcome the converts from the present Opposition to this proposal. We opposed the mandatory provisions throughout the Committee stage of that Bill, criticising them strongly. The right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East said that there was nothing in the Bill other than what the Home Office Advisory Council recommended, but I point out that in these provisions we are implementing not only what we said we should do but warned at that time would be necessary, but the then Government still voted us down at that stage.
  Mr. Callaghan: The hon. and learned Gentleman has scored one run.
  Mr. Carlisle: I have scored rather more than one.
  The second leg of the Bill deals with alternatives to imprisonment. Throughout, the Government have been concerned with tackling the problem of prison overcrowding by two methods: by building more prisons and by providing alternatives. Although the right hon. Gentleman said that we inherited from him the biggest prison building programme ever, I am glad to be able to tell the House that we have made substantial advances

  1083
  in the programme during the last 18 months. In the financial year, 1969–70, the last of the Labour Government, 80 new prison places were started; in the year 1970–71, that number was 1,500 places; in the present financial year, it is hoped to start 3,000. We inherited a situation with fewer than 5,000 places having been given planning clearance; today we have planning clearance for more than 10,000 additional places, 15 new major projects and a dozen further schemes about which we are in negotiation with local authorities. I am glad to say that much of the work of prison building is now being done by inmate labour.
  But whatever we can do in prison building we must surely look to further alternatives to imprisonment. This is where community service comes in. However, in view of the lack of time, I shall concentrate on the proposal to provide for probation hostels to be provided by probation committees. I have always believed, and I think that it is the view of lawyers on both sides of the House, that many people go to prison because there is no alternative, nowhere else to send them. Time after time one has heard in court that there is nowhere to send a man if he is not given a short term of imprisonment.
  One of the most important of the noncustodial methods dealt with in the Bill is the expansion of the use of adult probation hostels. I am glad to be able to tell the House that whereas until recently probation hostels were available only for those under 21, an experiment was begun last year whereby four hostels were provided for offenders up to 30. This year, two more hostels have been provided, and we have now entered on a programme which, if all goes well, will provide hostel accommodation for a further 1,700 adult offenders by 1976. This is a substantial programme and is, I believe, an important contribution to keeping people out of prison.
  I equally believe that a great deal of importance should be attached to our proposals for bail hostels. I have listened to all that has been said about bail, and we shall take note of it in Committee, but I believe that there is far more hope of reducing the time people individually spend on bail by speeding up the rate at
  1084
  which criminal trials can be heard than by seeking to cope with the remand population. But I think that remand hostels will help.
  Our proposals for day training centres are extremely important. I emphasise that this means, as has been pointed out by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for West Ham, South (Sir Elwyn Jones), a commitment to expand the probation service, but we made that commitment when we took office. We announced last year an increase in the size of the probation services from 3,500 to 4,700. We have produced the new training places, and we are keeping abreast of the target.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman asked about the inquiry. I think that I am right in saying that the terms are for discussion with the professional bodies. It is an inquiry into what should be the comparative rates of pay between those involved in the various fields of social service.
  No Criminal Justice Bill can ever cover everything that people want. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Fylde (Mr. Gardner) has mentioned various points that he would like to have considered. On the subject of life imprisonment for murder, all I would say to my hon. and learned Friend is that the Criminal Law Revision Committee is, as he knows, reviewing what the penalty for murder should be, and we think it right to await the outcome of the review.
  My hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Fylde, the hon. Member for Bradford, East (Mr. Edward Lyons) and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Havers) referred to Section 3 of the 1961 Act. I can assure them that we are aware of the criticisms, but this matter is at the moment before the Advisory Council and we feel it right to await its views.
  Inevitably, I have answered very few of the questions which have been raised but I hope, as I say, to be able to deal with them in detail in Committee. I believe that, contrary to what was said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cardiff, South-East, the Bill has been generally welcomed. Rather than saying that it has had very little Press, I say that the Press it has had has been extremely complimentary.

  1085
  The Bill is a genuine attempt to cope with the problems we inherited and which we face. It sets out a framework in which penal policy can be developed. Compensation and criminal bankruptcy are important new factors for strengthening the powers of the courts to ensure that the criminal does not get away with it. The whole idea of community service is an important new experiment in depriving people of their leisure for constructive social ends as a new means of penalty open to the courts. We must continue always to distinguish between the major criminal and the petty inadequate with whom we ought to be able to find better ways of dealing. In that mood, I commend the Bill to the House.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).
  Mr. Speaker: I understand that the Leader of the House wishes to make a short business statement. In order to do so within the rules of order it will be necessary for the Adjournment of the House to be moved. After the statement, of course, that Motion can be withdrawn and we shall proceed with the other business.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Goodhew.]

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  10.0 p.m.
  The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a short business statement.
  Following discussions through the usual channels, a two-day debate on Northern Ireland has been arranged for Thursday, 25th November, and Monday, 29th November, which will be the 3rd allotted Supply Day.
  As the House will realise, this rearrangement will make it necessary to
  1086
  defer the Second Reading of the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Bill and the debate on the Public Accounts Committee Reports. I hope to include them in my next business statement.
  Mr. Robert Mellish: I wish to put on record the Opposition's appreciation of the way in which the Government have so courteously and efficiently received our representations and to assure the Leader of the House that we will do our very best to co-operate with him over next week's business.
  Mr. Victor Goodhew (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury): I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  CRIMINAL JUSTICE [MONEY]
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide new methods of dealing with offenders and to make new provision in relation to certain existing methods; to increase the penalties under the Firearms Act 1968; to extend the definition of public place 'in the Public Order Act 1936; to empower the police to take drunken offenders to treatment centres; to enable the Secretary of State to release certain prisoners on licence without the recommendation of the Parole Board; to make various amendments in the law relating to criminal proceedings, the enforcement of fines, the execution of process, probation and after-care committees and property in the possession of the police; to repeal Section 38 of the Prison Act 1952 and to confer a power of entry in connection with the acquisition of land for prisons; to make new provision as respects the costs of magistrates' courts and as respects justices' clerks and their staffs; and for purposes connected with those matters; it is expedient to authorise—

  (1) The payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses of the Secretary of State under that Act and any expenses of the Official Petitioner constituted by provisions of that Act relating to criminal bankrutcy orders;

  (2) any increase attributable to that Act in the sums payable out of such moneys under any other Act;

  (3) any payment into the Consolidated Fund.—[Mr. Higgins.]

  PUBLIC WORKS (LOCAL AUTHORITY LOANS)
  10.2 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Terence Higgins): I beg to move,
  That the Local Loans (Increase of Limit) Order 1971, a draft of which was laid before this House on 5th November, be approved.
  This Order increases the amount which is available to the Public Works Loan Board for lending to local authorities. The amount was originally fixed at £1,000 million by the National Loans Act, 1968, and the same Act gave the Treasury power to increase the amount by order by £1,000 million at a time on three further occasions. This power is exercised by a Statutory Instrument and is subject to the affirmative Resolution of this House. Previous Orders have been made in 1969 and 1970. This is therefore the last occasion on which the amount may be increased under the existing legislation.
  As at today, 22nd November, 1971, the Public Works Loan Board had £279 million available for lending. At the current rate of drawing this would last until mid-January. There are, however, likely to be heavy calls on the board in the remainder of this year. Authorities in England and Wales may not draw more than 25 per cent. of their quota during the final quarter of the financial year and many who may have deferred taking up loans may now make substantial drawings. Furthermore, as local authorities, especially those in the development areas, expand their capital programmes, there will be a corresponding increase in the demands on the board. For these reasons, the approval for the Order is sought now.
  I would, however, remind the House, as I said a little more than a year ago, that this order does not in itself sanction any increase in local authorities' capital spending or mark any new increase in public expenditure programmes above those already announced. Local authorities are currently entitled to borrow 40 per cent. of their net new capital requirements, or 50 per cent. if they are in the less prosperous regions, from the board and the purpose of this order is to ensure that the board has available to it the funds necessary to meet its obligations.
  1088
  In conclusion I am sure that all hon. Members will join with me in expressing thanks to the Public Works Loan Commissioners for the services which they have continued to render with such skill and, of course, on an entirely voluntary basis.
  10.4 p.m.
  Sir Elwyn Jones: We support the Order and think that it is useful as far as it goes. But will the money which is now sought be enough? This is a period of crisis in employment, and it would seem that public expenditure on public works is urgently called for. If the Minister of State comes to my constituency, he will see a mass of public work crying out for public funds. Here is an admirable opportunity for initiative and action. We are beset and depressed by the inactivity of the Government in not tackling the unemployment problem, and this is an opportunity for the hon. Gentleman to deal with this important and critical aspect as a sort of forerunner to tomorrow's debate on the subject. I should like him to tell us, therefore, what are the uses to which this money from the Loan Commissioners is to be put. I should like to be satisfied that at least a substantial proportion of it will be used to tackle the most serious social and economic problem in our country, namely, the human wastage involved in unemployment.
  10.6 p.m.
  Mr. Higgins: I will, if I may, with the leave of the House, reply to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, although nowadays it is always rather hazardous to ask for that leave, but, if the House will allow me, I will do so.
  I appreciate the point which the right hon. and learned Gentleman made, and, of course, he raised a very important question, but I am afraid I must reply in the way in which, on other occasions in similar contexts on these Orders, reply has been given, that this Order does not in itself sanction any increase in local authority spending, nor does it mark any new increase in public expenditure programmes over those already announced. On the contrary, it actually makes the funds available to fulfil those obligations, which are, of course, decided in a different context.

  1089
  Therefore, I am afraid that it will not be in order for me to reply to the specific point which the right hon. and learned Gentleman raised. I think there is a well-established position on these matters, on the lines I have just mentioned. But of course, not for one moment would I minimise the importance of the point that he raised. I think I am right in saying that there will be an opportunity to debate this tomorrow.
  10.7 p.m.
  Mr. Joel Barnett: I had not intended to intervene on this matter tonight, but the hon. Gentleman has said that it is a tradition not to go into these Orders at any greater length—that it is not the custom to do so. Of course, we are not in traditional times. We have not before had a Government who have led us to 1 million unemployed. The Minister comes to this House and suggests—not, I agree, the sanctioning of capital expenditure, though it is a pity he did not tell us there would be—that all that we are doing is making available another £1,000 million.
  I think the Minister might have recognised that we are in anything but normal times, and that he might have told us how the Government are planning to ensure that this £1,000 million, or, indeed, very much more than this, is so spent as to bring down this intolerable burden of 1 million unemployed. It is not good enough for the Minister to come here and say that this has happened in the past. In the past we did not have a Government who led us to 1 million unemployed. This is a totally different situation.
  I must say I am extremely disappointed by the hon. Gentleman's explanation, and I am sure that all my hon. Friends will be extremely disappointed. Really, it is quite disgraceful, and if it were not for the fact, as I know it is, that some of my hon. Friends have urgent matters to raise on another issue, I am sure that they would want to pursue this one at great length. It is a very serious matter that the Minister should blithely come along and say "It is only £1,000 million" without explaining the matter more fully. All I would say to him is that the people of this country will not be satisfied with such a facile explanation about what happened in the past when we now have a very different situation from that which
  1090
  normally existed, and with the Minister, with no more explanation than that, from that Dispatch Box recommending this £1,000 million increase.
  Mr. Higgins: If I may intervene in the hon. Gentleman's speech, it would be quite wrong for the hon. Gentleman to suggest that I came with facile explanations, still less that I was suggesting that £1,000 million was an unimportant sum. On the contrary, this is a very important matter and the Order will give us scope for taking just the kind of measures which I understand him to favour. It is quite wrong that the hon. Gentleman should seek to make this trite political attack. As I have said, we shall have an opportunity tomorrow to debate the matter at length and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that occasion, which is the appropriate occasion, will be delighted to answer the hon. Gentleman's point.
  Mr. Barnett: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman, unusually for him, seems to have lost his cool. I was putting the reasonable point of view that we are being asked to sanction an extra £1,000 million, and the Minister simply said that he would tell us tomorrow how it might be used. It is not good enough, and I hope that he will not have the opportunity on many more occasions to present this sort of case.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Local Loans (Increase of Limit) Order 1971, a draft of which was laid before this House on 5th November, be approved.

  PURCHASE TAX
  10.11 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Terence Higgins): I beg to move,
  That the Purchase Tax (No. 6) Order 1971 (S.I., 1971, No. 1781), dated 3rd November 1971, a copy of which was laid before this House on 8th November, be approved.
  The effect of this Order is to make minor amendments to the purchase tax coverage in order to remove a particular anomaly which has come to our attention. It is desirable not to delay dealing with items of this kind, and the Treasury order procedure is provided under the Purchase Tax Act, 1963, so that they can be

  1091
  dealt with at any time when it becomes evident that something needs to be done.
  The order establishes, with effect from 9th November, that disposable tableware of whatever material is within the scope of the tax. To remove any doubt that some might be left out, the order rearranges the classification so that all disposable tableware comes within one group of the list of chargeable goods in the First Schedule to the Purchase Tax Act, 1963, namely Group 5, instead of as hitherto within Group 5 if the tableware was of paper and within Group 11 if it was of some other material such as plastic. The reclassification also removes from the items which were previously chargeable under Group 11 the limitation on the charge to those which were of a kind suitable for office or domestic use. This is a theoretical increase in the scope of the charge and is why it is necessary to have this Motion.
  The Order sets at rest doubts which have arisen recently about whether a sort of plastic cup specially designed for use in a beverage dispensing machine could fairly be said to be also of a kind used for domestic or office use, as other plastic cups are. It depends upon how broadly one looks at this question I understand that it was the intention of the previous Administration to tax all these plastic cups.
  In the 1969 Budget the tax under Group 5 was extended to apply among other things to "paper cups, paper plates and other tableware", and I understand that the automatic vending trade at that time complained about the effect of this on paper cups for use in their machines. They were told that it was the intention that all cups should be taxed wherever they were used. Some companies manufacturing cups and other tableware complained that this was anomalous while any plastic cups remained outside the pre-existing tax charge under Group 11, and they were assured that henceforward all plastic cups on the market would be regarded as within the tax.
  With this background, and in view of the doubts which I have mentioned, it appeared to us that an Order clarifying the tax position was desirable as it would be unreasonable to allow cups specialised for machine use to be tax-free when they could be used in substitution for
  1092
  non-specialised taxed cups, for instance, in canteens and in domestic circumstances such as picnics. The rate of tax is 11¼ per cent. of the wholesale value, so that quite a significant trading advantage might be involved.
  I have spoken principally of cups, but of course a similar problem could arise with plates and other tableware. The order makes it clear that they are all to be treated in the same way.
  Hon. Members who are interested in the amenity aspect of this may find a certain irony in the draftsman's use of the word "disposable" as the adjective to describe the throw-away plastic cups and beakers because their ultimate disposal is quite a problem. Be that as it may, the Order will remove the various anomalies of which I have spoken and I hope, therefore, that the House will see fit to approve it.
  10.15 p.m.
  Mr. Joel Barnett: I am sure the House will be interested in the clarification we have had from the hon. Gentleman. I spoke to an assistant manager in a large department store on Friday to ask him about this aspect of this Purchase Tax Order which came into effect on 9th November. He knew nothing whatever about it, and I am sure he will read with great interest the Minister's speech and that it will be very clear to him what is in the Government's mind.
  A large number of Statutory Instruments and orders are coming before the House on all sorts of subjects. It would be useful if explanatory notes on them really were explanatory. I will read this one to the House so that hon. Members will see what I mean:
  "This Order provides for disposable tableware of whatever material to be brought together in one Group of the Schedule of chargeable goods and removes any limitation of the charge to articles of a kind suitable for office or domestic use."
  Without benefit of the hon. Gentleman's brief explanation a moment ago, I suggest that that explanatory note is, to put it mildly, far from clear. Therefore, I hope that whoever drafts these Orders in future will make them a little clearer.
  I understand that these disposable cups and plates and such like are used to a considerable extent for children's parties. Do I take it that these articles which

  1093
  previously were not taxable will now be taxable?
  Mr. Higgins: Once again I ask the leave of the House to reply, though in view of the large number of hon. Members present I do so with some trepidation. I will comment on the hon. Gentleman's two points.
  I take his point about the Explanatory Memorandum, and there is a tendency to treat these matters as something of a formality. This brings out the point that there is a good case for a Ministerial speech to spell out these Orders in rather more detail, for the benefit of the commercial interests which may be signifi-
  1094
  cantly affected by the Order before the House. It is right that one should give an adequate explanation of exactly what is happening.
  On the aspect of children's parties, what essentially we were concerned with was a doubt which had arisen over vending machine cups. I suppose such articles could be used for children's parties, although I understand that normally they are bought only in very large quantities.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Purchase Tax (No. 6) Order 1971 (S.I., 1971, No. 1781), dated 3rd November, 1971, a copy of which was laid before this House on 8th November, be approved.

  CONSOLIDATION &c., BILLS
  Ordered,
  That the Lords Message of 4th November relating to the Committee on Consolidation, Bills, &c., Bills be now considered.—[Mr. Fortescue.]
  Lords Message considered accordingly.
  The Committee to join with the Committee appointed by the Lords as the Joint Committee on Consolidation, &c., Bills was nominated of Mr. Peter Archer, Mr. Tom Boardman, Mr. Richard Crawshaw, Mr. Green, Mr. Hall-Davis, Mrs. Elaine Kellett-Bowman, Mr. Ian Percival, Mr. Peter Rees, Mr. John Smith, Mr. David Waddington, Mr. William Wells and Mr. William Wilson.
  Ordered,
  That Three be the Quorum of the Committee.—[Mr. Fortescue.]
  Message to the Lords to acquaint thenz with the Order necessary to be communicated to their Lordships.

  NATIONALISED INDUSTRIES
  Ordered,
  That a Select Committee be appointed to examine the Reports and Accounts of the Nationalised Industries established by Statute whose controlling Boards are appointed by Ministers of the Crown and whose annual receipts are not wholly or mainly derived from moneys provided by Parliament or advanced from the Exchequer; and of the Independent Television Authority, Cable and Wireless Ltd., and Horserace Totalisator Board, and to examine such activities of the Bank of England as are not—

  (1) activities in the formulation and execution of monetary and financial policy, including responsibilities for the management of the gilt-edged, money and foreign exchange markets;

  (2) activities, as agents of the Treasury, in managing the Exchange Equalisation Account and administering Exchange Control; or

  (3) activities as a banker to other banks and private customers:

  Ordered,
  That the Committee do consist of fourteen Members.
  The Committee was nominated of Mr. John Biffen, Mr. William Clark, Mr. David Crouch, Sir Henry d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Mr. Jack Dormand, Mr. Peter Emery, Mr. John Golding, Mr. Green, Mr. Alec Jones, Sir Donald Kaberry, Mr. Russell Kerr, Mr. J. T. Price, Mr. David Stoddart and Mr. Tugendhat.
  Ordered,
  That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records, to adjourn from place to place and to report from time to time.
  Ordered,
  That the Committee have power to report from time to time the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee.
  Ordered,
  That the Committee have power to appoint persons with specialist knowledge for the purpose of particular inquiries, either to supply information which is not readily available or to elucidate matters of complexity within the Committee's order of reference.
  Ordered,
  That five be the Quorum.
  Ordered,
  That the Committee have power to appoint Sub-Committees and to refer to such Sub-Committees any of the matters referred to the Committee.
  Ordered,
  That every such Sub-Committee have power to for persons, papers and records; to report to the Committee from time to time; and to adjourn from place to place.
  Ordered,
  That three be the Quorum of every such Sub-Committee.
  Ordered,
  That the Committee have power to report from time to time any Minutes of Evidence taken before such Sub-Committees.—[Mr. Fortescue.]

  NATIONALISED INDUSTRIES
    ADJOURNMENT
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Fortescue.]

  COAL (IMPORTS)
  10.19 p.m.
  Mr. Dennis Skinner: I wish to draw attention to the announcement made on 3rd December of last year that the Government intended to lift the ban on coal imported under general licence from 5th December, 1970. It was done in a strange way in that the announcement came in the course of the Second Reading debate on the Coal Industry Bill. Many of my hon. Friends, including my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), complained at the time that it was wrong of the Government to make such an announcement when the House was discussing a very controversial Measure in the shape of

  1097
  hiving-off provisions affecting the coal industry in a manner which did not allow hon. Members to question the Minister closely about it.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Morpeth (Mr. George Grant) has spent a great deal of time and taken considerable trouble in tabling Questions to the Minister. For that reason, I hope that he will have an opportunity to intervene briefly in this debate. For that reason, I shall not take up the whole of my 25 minutes. [Interruption.] I say that deliberately, because some of my hon. Friends met the Minister for Industry last week, when they were given the hon. Gentleman's answer. To that extent, it is not all that important that we hear what the Under-Secretary has to say—[Interruption.] That may be unfair, but I think that it needs saying. We had the Minister's answer last Thursday.
  I intend to argue that there was no industrial case for importing coal on 5th December and that there were powerful economic reasons why the country could not afford to spend up to £40 million to build up stocks of inferior and expensive coal.
  The real motive for importing coal was just another example of the way in which this Government operate, obsessed as they are not with unemployment, as the Minister made clear three weeks ago, but with hammering trade unionists generally and the miners specifically. It is well known that the Tory economic strategy is based on curbing inflation by holding down wage claims in the public sector and thereby cutting the real purchasing power of those who work in those industries.
  Over the past two years, the miners have had a more favourable bargaining position, since the 40 million tons of stock coal which existed during the late 1950s and early 1960s has been removed. As a result, it became apparent to this Government that it was necessary for them to interfere in miners' wage negotiations with the National Coal Board, and that interference took the form of introducing coal imports under general licence. In other words, the Department of Trade and Industry, while indulging in killing off all our lame ducks, was not averse to allowing private coal owners abroad to feather their nests and, at the same
  1098
  time, initiating a vicious campaign against British miners.
  I said at the outset that there was no economic case for importing coal. One has only to look at some of the figures on prices of coal from countries abroad supplied in answers to parliamentary Questions tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Morpeth to see that my argument is proved conclusively. Whereas British coal, save for power station use, averages slightly above £7 per ton, including transport costs, in the past 12 months we have seen coal brought in from as many as 10 different countries at double and in some cases treble that price.
  It is no wonder that the Central Electricity Generating Board commented in its Annual Report for 1970–71 that it had an additional fuel bill of something in the region of £20 million, part of which was due to its imports of foreign coal. It could be argued that the Generating Board imported coal of its own free will, but I do not think that that is so. I think that the Government instructed it to do so.
  It would have been more sensible for the Minister to have explained that, since the country was to be plunged into the worst economic recession for 35 years, the Electricity Board would not need as much coal. In the financial year 1970–71—the tendency seems to be showing itself in this financial year—we are, for the first time since the Electricity Board was nationalised, using less electricity than we did in the preceding winter. Therefore, the Minister should have told the Electricity Board that, rather than scouring Europe and the rest of the world for coal which would be ultimately stocked in large quantities in Rotterdam, it would be better to use British coal.
  It may be of interest to the House that coal from the United States of America, Australia and South Africa at £33 a ton, and more, has to be stocked on the Continent, not as a gesture to the environment lobby but because, when the ban was lifted, neither the Government nor the Central Electricity Generating Board realised that the large ships which carried the coal from those countries—mainly from the United States and Australia—could not bring it direct into this country. It has to be shipped into ports, such as Rotterdam and Amsterdam,

  1099
  stocked there, and then transferred to smaller ships so that ultimately it can be transferred to British power stations.
  It was considered a waste of public money when we were involved in stocking coal on the British mainland. In fact, the N.U.M. and hon. Members in this House consistently argued that there ought to be some offset to the National Coal Board because coal was being stocked as it was at that time. But whilst it seemed wrong at the time to pay for the stocking of coal in Britain, like the argument on the common agricultural policy by the French farmers, it now seems right for the Government to allow the British Steel Corporation and the Central Electricity Generating Board to pay out money across the exchanges for coal to be stocked in Rotterdam.
  The British Steel Corporation has also been involved in importing coal. It has not imported the large amounts which have been imported by the Central Electricity Generating Board, but contracts have been placed with various countries to the extent of about 1 million tons over the next three or four years. Whilst it can be argued that, for a short time, there was a shortage of coking coal, the fact is that most acknowledged fuel experts—I do not take too much notice of them—and most Governments would argue that there is not the same shortage of coking coal that there was at that time. Here again, the same argument could be applied as was applied to the Central Electricity Generating Board. Instead of coercing the British Steel Corporation to buy coal, why did not the Government tell Lord Melchett, who at that time was fighting with sponge-like tenacity for a small matter of £4,000 million investment in the British Steel Corporation, that it would not need the additional coal because they were going to run down the steel industry? Why did not the Government say that the Corporation would not want the British coal, never mind the foreign coal?
  Some of my hon. Friends have made the point several times in steel debates that the workers at the Rover Don and Irlam steelworks would relish the chance to use British coal next year. I contend that the Government lifted this ban for purely political reasons. They wanted to take a hand in the wage claim which the National Union of Mine-
  1100
  workers is negotiating in 1971. By building up these large stocks of coal they hope to frighten the miners into accepting a cut of what amounts to 5 per cent. in real living standards by accepting the 7 per cent. offered by the National Coal Board. I fervently hope that the miners will respond to this challenge, when they take part in the ballot this week, by fighting for better wages and conditions.
  If it is right for the Government to import coal from European countries where, it is alleged by some of the pro-Marketeers even on this side of the House, miners and other workers are getting wages as much as £7 above those of British miners, how can a claim for £7 or £8, which has been lodged by the N.U.M., be considered outrageous compared with the so-called wages on the Continent?
  I hope, therefore, that the Government will listen to the voice of the miners this week and will keep their dirty nose out of the negotiations that are taking place. If the Government really want to curb price increases they ought to stop bawling and shouting about the trade unions ruining the economy by negotiating wage claims over and above what is the acceptable Government norm.
  But it is time that the Government started to clean their own doorstep by stopping the importation of foreign coal, and by stopping it now, because it is nothing less than Government-sponsored inflation to allow £40 million worth of coal to be imported when we do not need it. They should, instead, allow British miners to get on with the job of producing indigenous coal; miners such as those at Oxcroft Drift which has been threatened with closure, despite making a profit of £3 million over the last four years.
  10.31 p.m.
  Mr. George Grant: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) for allowing me to come in on this important debate. Unlike my hon. Friend, I am pleased that Under-Secretary of State is to reply on behalf of his right hon. Friend.
  The Government's coal policy is ridiculous. Coal stocks now exceed 33 million tons, yet the Government are encouraging the importation of coal. According to

  1101
  grade, foreign coal varies in price from £9·26 to £33·50 per ton. Home-produced coal varies according to grade from £4·50 to £17·50 per ton. Apart from the differences in prices, what is the Government's view of the effect of importing coal on the balance of payments? And what is their view of the effect on the morale of the men in the mining industry?
  Recent history shows that stocks of 30 million tons of coal have heralded a massive programme of colliery closures. Many miners are afraid that history will repeat itself. What is the real position in the mining industry? In recent mining debates in the House the Government have said that there is a need for a healthy, robust industry. Quite recently Sir David Barran, the Chairman of Shell, said that the Government should develop the coal industry, that the era of cheap coal had gone, and that oil prices would continue to rise. If the Government believe in the need for a strong, healthy mining industry, if they believe that stocks of 30 million tons are ample, why have they adopted their present policy? Is it because the Government want to embarrass the miners' wage claim, for a fair wage for a dirty and dangerous job? The country will achieve a strong and healthy mining industry only with the the good will of the miners.
  Last year the National Coal Board made an operational profit of £34 million. After interest charges, the surplus was reduced to £500,000. This is where the answer lies. The Government restrict the Coal Board from increasing its prices, so they must be prepared to inspect its finances to keep miners' wages abreast of those in other industries. Imports of coal are not the answer to the problem.
  10.36 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Nicholas Ridley): I am very glad that the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) has raised this subject, because it is right that it should be discussed in the House, and I think that I can adduce some arguments to justify the Government's position. I hope to make the hon. Member feel that we are sensitive to his arguments and will certainly consider them.
  The right hon. Member for Barnsley (Mr. Roy Mason) and some of his hon. Friends came to see my hon. Friend the
  1102
  Minister for Industry and myself a few days ago. We were able to discuss this matter and put forward some of the arguments to justify the Government's position. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman, who is present tonight, will forgive me if I repeat some of those arguments, because it is much better that they should be made public in a wider forum than was possible when he came to see us.
  I would emphasise that the policy a year ago when the coal import ban was lifted was simply to ensure that supplies would be available to those who burned coal. This was beneficial to the coal industry, because it kept the markets of the industry open. If people who burned coal were unable to obtain supplies, they were likely to switch to other forms of fuel, and that in turn would have reduced the permanent market for coal and have damaged the miners' cause.
  So there can be no question but that the Government's policy of allowing imports a year ago was designed to help the industry's customers and indirectly the industry itself by keeping markets for it in a period when there was grave doubt as to whether there would be sufficient coal to get through the winter. My hon. Friend the Minister for Industry said at that time that he would review the import ban not later than March 1972, and we will do so. I emphasise the words "not later than", which mean that it can be reviewed before. My hon. Friend would like to have flexibility as to the exact date on which he comes to a conclusion about the future of the control or otherwise.
  It must be remembered that the prospects of a shortage last winter were not made any easier by the strike which took place and that the consumers were worried that they would be faced with a situation in which they would not be able to obtain coal for their fuel plants. They were prepared, it seems, to pay considerably extra for security of supply. We reckon that four million tons has come into the country altogether—about half from the United States, a third from Australia and very little from Europe. Although most of it was shipped, as the hon. Gentleman said, to Rotterdam. very little of the coal imported has been European coal. I can give a rough indication of price differentials, but I emphasise that

  1103
  these figures are averages and may be misleading because some qualities of coal are more valuable than others.
  The average price of United Kingdom coal at the pithead last year was, according to the N.C.B. Report, £5·80 per ton, whereas the average price of imports—this includes the cost of transportation across the oceans to this country—was £9·40 per ton. There is, therefore, a big price disadvantage to imports, which shows that the only reason why people imported coal was because they wanted to secure their own supplies and be certain they would not be interrupted if coal really became short last winter.
  Some of this consists of special coals, mostly for the British Steel Corporation, and is of a quality or type which is not available from British production. On 9th April, 1970, the right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) said that imports might prove necessary in this category—of special coals—and indeed they have.
  There has been no pressure placed by the Government either on the B.S.C. or the Central Electricity Generating Board to import coal. I give that categorical assurance to the House. There has been no pressure either way to import or not to import coal. The C.E.G.B. was the main importer. The Board imported steam coal to assure electricity supplies for the country if the winter had turned out to be hard, instead of the relatively mild winter we had last year.
  As the contracts which were entered into were fulfilled, the level of imports dropped, and it is broadly true to say that the coal which has come to this country has nearly all come in as a result of expected or possible shortages due to the stocks position this time last year, coupled with the possibility of a much more severe winter than we in fact experienced.
  Mr. Roy Mason: If that is true, what steps are the Government taking to stop an upsurge of coal imports in present circumstances? What public warning is the Minister prepared to give to all coal importers that when the ban falls on coal imports the importers concerned will have to accept the consequences themselves, without compensation, of indulging in long-term contracts?
  Mr. Ridley: Any importer who imports coal at £9·40 per ton when he can obtain it in this country for £5·80 would not be a very shrewd businessman. I confirm what the right hon. Gentleman said about contracts; any contract which exists if a ban falls will not be exempt from the operation of the ban. But I emphasise the word "if" because I do not want in any sense to prejudge my right hon. Friend's decision about the future.
  This brings me to the present position. Distributed stocks of coal stand at 23·8 million tons, and the N.C.B.'s undistributed stocks stand at 10 ·9 million tons. That was the position at the latest count. This is a satisfactory level of stocks to get through the winter, whatever may be the condition of the weather.
  I would have said that, apart from the small area of special coals for the steel industry, nobody would be willing to import when there is this quantity of coal on the ground and when the price differential is as I have said. I do not believe, therefore, that there is any likelihood of large imports of coal in the present conditions.
  The only worry—and hon. Gentlemen opposite must face this—in the minds of consumers of coal is whether there will be a serious interruption of coal production due to a possible strike following the ballot this week. It is right for me to say that the Government are holding the possibility of coal imports open so that they can preserve the markets for coal, even if there were to be a coal strike—[Interruption.]—which would only damage the markets for coal. That should be pondered by the miners when they ballot this week, because it shows that the policy of coal imports, however much it may be suspected and thought to be threatening the miners, has helped them to preserve a larger coal industry than would have been the case if there had been no imports allowed.
  The present position is as follows. Apart from special coals, which are small in quantity—the House accepts that we must allow in some special coals—there is a very great price advantage to British coal. The Government's overriding consideration must be that supplies must be maintained to burners of coal, in particular to the C.E.G.B. This is in the interests not only of the public at large

  1105
  but of the coal industry because it has the effect of keeping markets open.
  I stress that if any consumer of coal feels that he is unlikely to get supplies at a crucial period, in the worst of the winter when the weather is at its coldest, and when perhaps stocks cannot be moved because railways are frozen up or roads blocked with snow, he is the most likely to switch to alternative fuels. There is no stronger guarantee of a buoyant and continuing market than that there should be coal freely and readily available to those who want to buy it.
  I add a fifth point for consideration by hon. Members. When we join the European Economic Community, there will be free trade in coal—about a year from now. We already export 2½ million tons to the Continent of Europe. With free trade in coal, there is no reason why that figure should not increase considerably if the Coal Board can sell it.
  Mr. George Grant: Then why import it now?
  Mr. Ridley: It would be clearly crazy to impose a ban on imports of coal from the Common Market countries for a period of only a year. No one feels that that should be done. I wish that hon. Gentlemen would be more aware of the great opportunities that exist for coal. When I mentioned the figures £5·80 against £9·40 for imported coal, does not any hon. Gentleman say to himself, "Here is a very competitive British pro-
  1106
  duct. Let us go out and sell it and let us increase production by selling it"? Why are we so on the defensive?
  Mr. George Grant: That is what the whole argument is about.
  Mr. Ridley: Why do hon. Gentlemen not say that we should strip off the protection for coal and that it is so well priced and competitive that we should increase production by selling more? Why do hon. Gentlemen opposite have this defensive attitude? Why do they not welcome the opportunity which unfolds—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Miss Harvie Anderson): Order, the Question—Mr. Leadbitter.
  Mr. Ted Leadbitter: I did not intend to rise, but the Minister has provoked—
  Mr. Ridley: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I think we started the debate at—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order.
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at eleven minutes to Eleven o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Rochester.

EUROPEAN DEFENCE AND BRITISH NUCLEAR EXPERTISE
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether information and expertise on nuclear potential in possession of the United Kingdom is to be made available to the French Government and whether NATO will be consulted.]
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have received no request from the French Government for information or expertise in the nuclear defence field, nor have we offered to provide any.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, which is satisfactory so far as it goes. I noted that recently the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, engaged in conversations with one of his opposite numbers in Western Europe and there was a suggestion by himself that the Government might have in contemplation the formation of a Western European Defence Organisation. May I ask whether there was any consultation with NATO about that?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, in the conversations I have had with M. Debret no official proposals for the sharing of nuclear secrets have been made or received.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, may I ask whether the noble Lord regards the conversation as quite unofficial, and whether it really meant nothing at all?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, nobody should know better than the noble Lord, between Ministers of Defence are like.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in my experience when I was Minister of Defence or Secretary for War any discussions I had with my opposite numbers were of an official character? Sometimes they were confidential, it is true. But the noble Lord has not, in extenuation of his behaviour, suggested that these conversations with his opposite number were confidential, and therefore I think we are entitled to know what were they all about?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I think that the noble Lord has misunderstood what I said. What I said was that in the conversations that I had with M. Debret no proposals were made, either by him or by me, about the sharing of nuclear secrets.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, were there any conversations about any know-how in our possession being conveyed to the French Government on any occasion? Is not the noble Lord aware that the Prime Minister has been engaged in conversations with M. Pompidou, and are we to understand that this subject of defence has never been mentioned at all?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I am too much an admirer of the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, not to believe that he has read very carefully what my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said in another place about his conversations with M. Pompidou, when he said there had been no discussion about a nuclear defence arrangement.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Oh!
LORD SHINWELL: —I am sorry to pursue the matter but it is one of some importance, and the importance increases in view of the answers I have now received. May I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that, while I have some doubts about his policy, I have the highest regard for his ability and I read everything he says; and I regard what he says as being of the utmost seriousness, and that is the point of my question?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I am glad.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, will my noble friend inform the House as to the exact position regarding nuclear cooperation between this country and France? If at the moment on a short-term basis such co-operation is not feasible, should we not be playing it on a long-term basis?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I would ask my noble friend to read the answers I have given. I think that the position is quite clear.

FIREARMS: SECURITY PRECAUTIONS AT SCHOOLS
2.40 p.m.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is a fact that, as reported in the Press, the gun and ammunition used to murder Detective-Constable Ian Coward at Reading in June, 1971, were stolen from the Whitgift School, South Croydon; and if so what, if any, regulations govern the storage of firearms and live ammunition in schools.]
THE MINISTER or STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD WINDLESHAM): My Lords, the 22 revolver and ammunition used in this tragic incident were stolen from the armoury of a shooting club at Whitgift School where they were held on the authority of a firearms certificate. Apart from any specific condition which may be imposed by a chief officer of police relating to a particular firearm, certificates are held subject to the general condition that the firearm and ammunition are kept in a secure place when not in actual use. This requirement applies whether the firearm is held in a school Or elsewhere, as do the other provisions of the firearms legislation, including those relating to rifle clubs.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. May I ask him, first of all, whether he is able to say in how many
810
schools live ammunition and weapons are held? Secondly, what steps are taken to see that the conditions of safe keeping required by the firearms certificate are in fact observed in schools? Thirdly, would he not agree that if these weapons and ammunition are necessary for the training of cadet force units, instead of dispersing them throughout the schools of the country, which are not normally occupied at night, it would be better if they were stored at police stations or Army barracks, which are at least manned 24 hours a day and from which they could be issued with proper security as required?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot answer the first supplementary question, on the number of schools with clubs, without notice. I should make clear that this weapon was not used for Combined Cadet Force purposes. It was owned and used by members of two rifle clubs at Whitgift School, and therefore questions relating to Combined Cadet Forces do not arise. As regards the firearms used by rifle clubs, these are held on the authority of a firearm certificate. The chief constable concerned has responsibility for seeing that such firearms are kept in a secure place, and he will from time to time inspect the conditions in which they are kept.
BARONESS STOCKS: My Lords, may I ask two supplementary questions which I think are relevant to those raised by my noble friend Lady Wootton of Abinger? First, when the noble Lord said, "a school or elsewhere ", what is meant by "elsewhere "? I ask that question because recently the murder of three French tourists was committed by a man who alleged that he stole his rifle and ammunition from a fairground at (I think he said) Llandudno? My second question is: Why should schoolboys be taught to use firearms in any case?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the reference to "elsewhere "was included because there are rifle clubs which are in schools and rifle clubs which are not attached to schools at all. The number of offences in which firearms were misappropriated or received last year was of the order of 1,800; only about 61 of these involved firearms taken from rifle clubs or military establishments. So the

811
number of firearms which become available for law-breaking from rifle clubs and military establishments is fairly small.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, the noble Lord has referred to the responsibility of chief constables for inspecting armouries in which weapons and ammunition are kept in schools; can he give the House any idea of the frequency of inspection, which I think is something of which a great many schools are quite unaware?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the armoury at Whitgift School was last inspected by the police in 1968. The security precautions were increased at that time, and the police believed that the conditions in which the firearms were held were secure. We are asking Her Majesty's Inspectors of Constabulary to pay particular attention to this aspect of firearms control in the course of their inspections of police forces.
LORD SLATER: My Lords, can the noble Lord say how many rifle clubs there are in being up and down the whole of Great Britain? Because I think this information would be tangible and useful for Members of your Lordships' House and of another place.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot provide that information without notice.
BARONESS STOCKS: My Lords the noble Lord has said that inspection covers rifle clubs. Fs the fairground at Llandudno classified as a rifle club? If not, how is it classified and when was the last inspection? My second question has not been answered at all.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the question of fairgrounds is really outside the terms of the Question on the Order Paper. As for the general question the noble Baroness put about training in the use of firearms at schools, we must accept that rifle and pistol shooting are well established and popular sports. They are included among the Olympic events, and it is desirable that young people interested in these sports should learn to handle firearms in a responsible way under proper supervision.

EIREANN CITIZENS' EMPLOYMENT IN BRITAIN
2.47 p.m.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider revoking the present arrangements whereby citizens of Eire may come and go to and from Great Britain without let or hindrance and obtain employment in this country without a work permit.]
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have no plans for altering the existing arrangements.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: My Lords, although I am far from satisfied with the Minister's reply, may I ask whether he realises that, while I am not motivated by a spirit of vindictiveness, I have a sincere desire to decrease the number of unemployed in this country? Would he not agree that the presence of countless thousands of Irishmen in this country must inevitably add to that total?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the question of unemployment and of the number of Irish people who can come here to seek work without permits is, we think, part of the wider issue of the Common Travel Area arrangements.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, may I ask a question, purely for the purpose of gaining information? Though I would not wish to impose any restriction on citizens of Eire coming to this country, can the noble Lord say whether such permission is based on a Treaty? If so, is the Treaty available in the Library so that one can read it?
LORD WINDLESHAM: No, my Lords; these are administrative arrangements. Control can be imposed between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom by means of administrative action.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, can my noble friend say whether there is any let or hindrance to any such citizen of Eire joining a rifle club the day he comes over, perhaps acting as instructor?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, that hardly arises out of the Question. The Irish citizen has free access to this country, whether he comes here as a visitor or to work. He can engage in any lawful activities he likes, just as anybody else can.
LORD DAVIES OF LEEK: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that thousands of Irishmen from North and South, at times when this country had need of them, have been ready to serve it? May we not reach a pitch of neurosis when we wish to exclude, because of trouble in Northern Ireland, people of Irish nationality? Let us try to escape this neurosis that is running through the world. As a Welshman, I feel a tremor of fear running through my bones that one day it may be propose to exclude us.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, it is in our interests and in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland that as friendly relations as possible should be maintained with the Republic of Ireland. To impose control over immigration would make little contribution towards a peaceful settlement, either militarily or politically, in Northern Ireland.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: My Lords, are another 100,000 workers unemployed not important?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, I do not know where the noble Earl gets his figure of 100,000 from. The estimate I have been given is that there are about 25,000 workers from the Republic of Ireland who come to this country to settle and about a further 25,000 casual seasonal workers.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: My Lords, I merely say that I was informed by the Home Office that there are no definite figures.

THE MIDDLE EAST
2.51 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg to ask a Question of which I have given Private Notice; namely,
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of President Sadat's Statement that he sees no hope of solving the Middle East crisis peacefully
814
and that a decision has been made, they will take the initiative to call a meeting of the United Nations Security Council to consider further urgent steps to prevent war.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (THE MARQUESS OF LOTIHAN): My Lords, we are seriously concerned about the situation in the Middle East. But we shall need to give close study to what President Sadat, and others, have recently been saying before deciding whether there is any action which we might usefully take.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask whether when that consideration has been given he would bear in mind two alternative proposals? In view of the fact that the United Nations have adopted a resolution for the handling of this matter, would they not be prepared, perhaps through Dr. Jarring, to seek a meeting similar to the Rhodes Conference, where initially the two parties met separately; and secondly, whether they would consider calling a Geneva Conference of all the nations involved, where again the two sides would not have to face each other bilaterally when there is an objection on one side?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, certainly we will give consideration to both the proposals made by the noble Lord. I might inform him that the whole question is, as I understand, to be debated in the General Assembly of the United Nations in the not too distant future and it might be as well to await the expression of views made there before going any further.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, is it not the fact that this debate at the United Nations is some three or four weeks away and there is a real feeling that a crisis flashpoint may well shortly be reached? If this matter cannot be taken to the Security Council, would the noble Lord consider whether there should not be further pressure within the Committee of Four, the Four Powers, to give fresh instructions to Dr. Jarring to see if he can find any way in which he could diffuse, at least for a period, what is a growing crisis?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I will certainly consider that suggestion. I think the noble Lord is incorrect in saying that the debate is so far ahead. I understand that it is to be in the near future—within the next week or ten days. But one knows what happens at the United Nations, and it may be later. Of course we should welcome any initiative that Dr. Jarring can make, and if there is anything we can do to assist this, Her Majesty's Government will be willing to do so.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, is it not a fact that Dr. Jarring, to take the initiative, would need the support of the Four Powers? I am asking the noble Lord to consider whether our Government should not take the initiative within the Four Power group to give fresh instructions to Dr. Jarring.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, as I say, I will certainly consider that suggestion. The other factor to be borne in mind is that the two Powers immediately concerned in this issue must also be willing to accept the initiative of Dr. Jarring.
LORD JANNER: My Lords, in view of the statements that have been made in this Chamber and in another place, that it is understood—and I think it is generally understood—that the two parties themselves should meet to discuss this matter, whether it be directly or through the intervention of another person, as in the Rhodes case, do not the Government feel that they should endeavour to ascertain from the other Governments whether they will press for a similar method of settling this matter? Obviously the Government must realise that the kind of request that is being made of Israel at the present time is one with which she cannot possibly comply. In the circumstances, the only way in which the parties can possibly come to a final settlement is by their meeting.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: Certainly, my Lords. And we are prepared to give any support we can to the meeting of the two parties concerned. I think my right honourable friend made this plain in his speech to the Assembly in (I think it was) September.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the two proposals
816
that I made were an effort to meet the difficulty about the immediate meeting of the two sides? That was intended as a bridge. Secondly, may I say to the Minister—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: No!
LORD BROCKWAY: May I ask the Minister this question? Is not history just full of action that has been too late? May not the postponement of urgent action now lead to a situation which will make this terrible war inevitable?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I do not want to give the noble Lord the impression that I am not aware of his suggestions in this matter: indeed I am, and I know the great interest that he takes in them. I will note carefully what he has said.
BARONESS GAITSKELL: My Lords, in view of the failure of all the efforts and suggestions that have been made, may I ask the Minister whether it would not be more useful for the Government to press President Sadat to meet the Israelies?—because the Israelis are prepared to meet him.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Janner, just now, the Government would obviously look with complete favour on a meeting between the two sides. In our opinion, this is the way in which this dispute must be settled.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, pending any possibility of the two sides meeting, could not the Government endeavour to use their influence towards a continuation of the existing cease-fire.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: Yes, my Lords. I think, without notice of the question, I can give an assurance to that effect.

HEALTH AND PERSONAL SOCIAL SERVICES
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, wan the permission of the House, my noble friend Lord Aberdare will be making a Statement on developments in the health and personal social services at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m.

COMMITTEE OF SELECTION
2.58 p.m.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to select and propose to the House file names of the five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill; and that the Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor and the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

M. Salisbury,

M. Willingdon,

E. St. Aldwyn,

E. Swinton,

L. Amulree,

L. Beswick,

L. Chorley,

L. Ogmore,

L. Silkin,

L. Strang:

That the Committee have leave to report from time to time.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
LORD HOY: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Earl a question. Can he tell me who selected the Select Committee to appoint the Select Committees? According to the Report on Procedure—I do not want to anticipate to-morrow's debate—the greatly increased attendance in this House is attributable to Life Peers. Looking at this particular Committee of ten, I see that there are nine hereditary Peers and one Life Peer. I should like to know whether this regarded as a fair balance. I should also like to know—and I am sure it would interest many Members of your Lordships' House—how this Committee came to be selected.
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, this Committee, like other Committees of the House, is appointed by the House, and the names of the Members of the House who are proposed are always submitted to the House for the House to approve. May I suggest to the noble Lord that his comments on the composition of Committees of this House would be welcome to me and to many other noble Lords if he would care to make them during the debate to-morrow.
LORD HOY: My Lords, I do not want to take the point any further, but the Report at least suggests that the considerable new life that has come to this House is a result of the appointment of Life Peers. If these Life Peers have made this contribution, I find it difficult to understand why they have only one-tenth of the representation on this particular Committee.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, may I ask further why it is that this Committee has a monopoly of one sex?
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords. I can only say that I hope very much that in the course of the debate to-morrow afternoon the noble Baroness will amplify the comment she has just made. That will give an opportunity to any noble Lords and Ladies who wish to speak to express their views about the composition of the Commttiees of the House.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords. may I ask the noble Earl whether he is aware that, looking at this list, someone appears to have been unfair to the hereditary Peers? At least they are Peers by succession. May I suggest to him, since I know from my experience that the work which this Committee does is onerous and unsung, that my noble friend Lord Hoy is clearly a candidate to participate in its work?
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords. I will certainly look very carefully into all that the noble Lord, speaking for the Opposition, has just said.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, is not the answer this, that the disproportion as between the hereditary Peers and Life Peers is based completely on ability?
BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEY My Lords, without questioning the difference between hereditary and Life Peers. to some of us here how these names are put forward is a mystery. We should rather like to know what the procedure is and how the selection is eventu: My Lords, in answer to the noble Baroness may I say that so far as possible the Committees of the House represent a cross-section of the opinions of the whole of the House. It is not easy to get a precise

819
representation of every point of view, but I try to the best of my ability to collect the views of the Parties and of the independent Members of your Lordships' House in order to try and select for the approval of the House a Committee which will at any rate be a cross-section of the views of the majority of the Members of this House.
LORD ROBBINS: My Lords, would the noble Earl not agree that it is perhaps unfortunate that the surgeon's knife which accomplishes this cross-section seems almost always to omit the female sex?
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Hear, hear!
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I will certainly note very carefully what the noble Lord has said.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MUSEUMS AND GALLERIES BILL [H.L.]
3.4 p.m.
THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (VISCOUNT ECCLES): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. This is a small, one-page Bill, designed to achieve a very limited object: to give four museums power to charge for entrance because, unlike the other national museums and galleries, it is uncertain whether these four have this power under their existing arrangements. Small the Bill may be, and behind it the money is small—it is really all about 10p. Nevertheless it has aroused very considerable and very welcome interest in museums. I say this because when I entered upon my present responsibilities I knew something about the purposes and needs of our museums and how necessary it was to add a new concern for the general public to the traditional care for the scholar and connoisseur. Now I find that I greatly underestimated what we have to do, and that the size of the problem is very far from being well understood. For this reason the argument over charges is welcome, because it is making people think about museums when they were not thinking about them before.
Now may I turn to the Bill itself? It provides that four museums shall have
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the power to charge. It does not specify the scale of charges because that is a matter of arrangement between the Government and the museums. The museums accept that charging is now part of the Government's policy. I think I can show in the course of my speech that, however strongly any trustee at first reacted against charges—and that I understand, because there was no time to inform them why we had taken the decision—there are solid reasons for thinking that the introduction of charges will be to the advantage of the museums themselves. I should like to thank the trustees and staffs of the museums for the way in which, after the brusque opening of this affair, they have collaborated with us in working out some very difficult and detailed arrangements for the introduction of charges. I will come later to the reasons why I think this is in their own interests. I wish to say a word first about subsection (2) of Clause 1. This applies to Scotland, and is only necessary because the Charities Act 1960 does not apply to Scotland. If it did, we should not need subsection (2). The Secretary of State would then have the power, which my right honourable friend Mrs. Thatcher has now, to vary the trusts when changed circumstances were seen to justify such action.
Your Lordships will remember that the Nathan Committee was appointed in 1950 to examine the law and practice relating to charitable trusts. The Committee reported that further statutory provision should be made for varying or revoking a trust when circumstances had changed and it was advisable to bring the conditions of the trust into line with the new situation. That recommendation was embodied in the 1960 Act, and the relevant clause is now used every day of the week to overcome difficulties raised by the passage of time.
I have been informed by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland that there are collections in the Scottish museums in regard to which it can reasonably be maintained that they were given to the institution on the understanding that they would be exhibited free to the public, at least on certain days. These collections are: first, that transferred to the National Gallery of Scotland by the heirs of Sir James Erskine of

821
Torrie in 1845; secondly, the Vaughan collection of Turner drawings received in 1900; and thirdly, a collection transferred to the Royal Scottish Museum in 1855 by the Edinburgh Town Council. This latter collection is scattered all over the Museum and could not now be identified.
Your Lordships may ask what has happened to justify varying the conditions of these trusts. The answer is that in the last hundred years the costs of maintaining and enlarging the museums concerned have increased to such an extent as to bring about what amounts to a new situation. The public is concerned not with these three bequests alone but with the whole of the collections. How are they to be maintained and enlarged? The sums of money required for these two purposes are now so considerable that they have to be compared with other forms of domestic expenditure. The Government do not have a bottomless purse, and therefore we think it reasonable, in circumstances so different from 1845, 1855 and 1900, to ask a small contribution towards the growing expenditure from those who now enjoy the collections as a whole. This is the real issue before us. Do the museums require large new sums of money and, if so, having regard to all the other claims on the Exchequer, and especially the other arts, what is the most sensible and fair way to finance as much as possible all these activities?
I suppose it is common ground between us that a great deal more money could with advantage be devoted to the spread of the arts, not just in London and to our famous companies and institutions of international repute, but also across the whole country and to popular art as well as to the sophisticated and experimental forms which demand large subsidies but cannot be expected to attract a mass audience. With limited resources such as we have the problem is how to pursue a policy of expansion in so many directions at once. In the case of the fine arts, it is accepted that the costs should be shared between the general body of the taxpayers and the users of the particular art in question. No one expects the seats at the Coliseum, the Aldwych or the Festival Hall to be free. No one expects to go round Hampton Court or the Tower of London for nothing. In all such instances it is accepted by the public and
822
by Parliament that the cost should be shared between the taxpayers and the users.
My noble friend Lord Robbins, in all article he wrote on the political economy of the arts, misunderstands the analogy between the fine arts and the museums. Charging has got nothing to do with keeping people out, of equating demand with supply; we want more money to be spent on the arts in general, and one way to get that is to share the rising costs between the general body of the taxpayers and those who use the particular form of art which appeals to them. This is done in the subsidised theatre and opera; it is done at places of historic interest and at many museums. Coming to the national museums and galleries, it may be that if all their services had been considered by all sections of opinion to be adequate, and nothing extra was urgently demanded for gallery space, offices, amenities, equipment and staff, or for acquisitions, then perhaps no Government would have thought it essential to introduce charges. But none of your Lordships would be content with such a complacent and standstill position.
It is only too well known that the museums are drawing bigger crowds every year, and that the urgent problem is how to anticipate the demands of a larger and better informed public. The kind of publicity which is at this moment being given to the British Museum for the first time —and I am glad of it—is bound to be reflected in larger attendances and more demands on the staff. If Sir Mortimer Wheeler had been giving these television talks the queue of people would have stretched from the Tottenham Court Road to the door of the museum, as it did when he gave only three talks on the Temple of Mithras. We have not given publicity to the museums yet: when we do so we shall see the result. But it is no good looking at one museum alone; I must consider the service as a whole. There are two related sets of priorities that have to be resolved. With the help of the best expert advice I can secure I am trying to sort these out and to turn them into long-term programmes with finance and timetables so that my successors can inherit in a better shape than I did the basic materials for their policies.
The problems of priority are, first, how, if we can get more money, should it be

823
spent between buildings, equipment and staff on the one hand, and acquisitions on the other; and secondly, how to be sure that the expenditure will be fair as between London and the Provinces. One would like to be able to do everything at once, but that is not possible. In all the arts the aim must be to continue to subsidise the worthwhile activities which we subsidise now, and then to direct such new resources as become available to the neglected priorities. I have no doubt that in the field of the museums this means putting greater emphasis on buildings, equipment and staff and greater emphasis on the Provinces. Very big sums of money would be involved if we were to underwrite a programme that came anywhere near doing justice to these two neglected priorities.
In spite of this background it may be that some of your Lordships care so much for the principle of not charging at the national museums and galleries that you would be prepared to forgo expansion in building or in major grants for new acquisitions in London and the Provinces. If so, I can only say that that is not the Government's view; we think a more ambitious national policy is urgent, and it appears to us that if the users of museums, like the users of the other arts, make some small contribution towards the rising expenditure it is going to be much easier for us to get new money. The choice, as we see it, is between no charges with no adequate expansion and a modest charge with expansion both in London and the Provinces.
It would be wrong to speak about expansion without saying something more about current costs, which are worrying. In all the arts these are rising fast, partly because the arts are labour-intensive. I should think the costs are rising by at least 10 per cent. a year—just for the arts to stand still where they are now. The prices of the scats at theatres and concerts halls are being raised all round, not to ration the seats as my noble friend Lord Robbins seems to think, but to keep the subsidies down. If we charged the museum visitor the same proportion of the costs which the subsidised theatres and concerts and operas obtain from their public, the museum entrance charge would have to be about 50p. That is one half of the £1 which every visit to a museum now costs the taxpayers.
824
The museums are acutely aware of how the costs of display and security are rising. The special exhibitions which they put on with such skill and imagination are a case in point. Ten years ago the average charge was about half-a-crown. Five years ago it was something like four shillings. Now it is much nearer 30p.
For my part I regret very much that special exhibitions have had to become so expensive and so socially divisive. These temporary displays illustrate some artist or period or theme. They often attract visitors just because they are temporary, and because they convey a sense of life that the permanent collections may lack. They make converts to museums. I hope that in time, when the system of charging is well established, consideration will be given to including entrance to special exhibitions in the charge at the main doors of the museum. I was interested to read in the same article by my noble friend Lord Robbins that when there is any danger of overcrowding at special exhibitions at the National Gallery they never hesitate to charge an entrance fee to keep people out. My Lords, I do not want to keep people out. The object of charging is to make it easier to secure the money to make museums places which more people can visit in comfort.
That brings me to a number of objections to charges, which I should like to anticipate in the closing part of my remarks. Those who are so certain that charging is wrong in principle—
LORD ROBBINS: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Viscount but his argument naturally has a very strong intellectual appeal so far as I am concerned. I should like to hear from his lips whether, in the event of the financial situation becoming easier, he would advise the authorities of Covent Garden, where I happen to be Secretary of the Finance Committee, to reduce the charges by 50 per cent.
VISCOUNT ECCLES: My Lords, Covent Garden is a very special case. It is the one case which obviously the noble Lord knows very well and which is at the back of his article. He there says that the prices at Covent Garden are what they are because otherwise there would be large queues and he much prefers to ration people by the purse. But he does not realise that in the case of (shall we

825
say?) Hampton Court there is always room for thousands more people and yet we have charges. Charges are put on to help bear part of the cost of a rapidly growing institution or company. What Covent Garden should do if the financial position became easier we must see at the time; but I think the noble Lord knows that I am about to consider an enormous bill from Covent Garden for building, and he had better get his building done first before he talks about reducing the price of seats.
LORD ROBBINS: My Lords, without wishing to enter into an argument, which would be unseemly, with the noble Viscount at this stage, I should like to point out to him that in the article to which he refers I actually inform the readers that charges were made at Hampton Court. I have the article here.
VISCOUNT ECCLES: I am very glad the noble Lord did, my Lords; but if he did—as I am sure he did—then that really goes against his general argument, which was that there was no case for a charge where the public could not be described as overcrowded to the point of discomfort. If he thinks about that he will see that a large part of the paper he wrote does not tie up.
LORD ROBBINS: My Lords, I will deal with that later.
VISCOUNT ECCLES: My Lords, I have got it; I will quote it later if the noble Lord wishes.
It is said that charging will keep away a large number of visitors. We do not know whether that is true or how true it is. The evidence we have is rather the other way. When charges were put on and increased at places such as Apsley House, the National Folk Museum of Wales, the Museum at Norwich, or National Trust properties, the attendances, far from going down, actually rose. I do not pretend to give the House the reasons for that but it is a fact. Last year, for example, the National Trust I think in many cases raised their charges and they had the record number of over 3 million visitors who paid the record sum of well over half a million pounds. So I think the answer to those who fear that some people will be deterred by a charge of 10p is that, unless we spend more on the museums, in a few years
826
much larger numbers will be deterred, at the holiday periods at any rate, by overcrowding.
Then there is a very curious argument that because a picture has been bought with public funds it is wrong to charge future generations to see it. The best answer I can give to that is to congratulate the last Labour Government on finding £386,000 for rebuilding the Jewel House at the Tower of London. The money of course came from public funds. When the building was finished and opened, were the public let in free? Not at all. The Labour Minister doubled the charges compared to what they were before the building was put up. And what happened? Each year the number of visitors has markedly increased. I think this will happen here, too; the attendances will also rise like that when the new extensions to the national galleries and museums are completed, although I hope we shall not imitate our predecessors and promptly double the charge.
Next, there are those who say they would not object to charges if all the museums and galleries offered at least one free day a week. This is a very attractive suggestion. We went into it very carefully and I must ask your Lordships to allow me a moment or two to explain why, with very great regret, we have to turn it down. We all agree that it would be popular to have one free day, especially at the weekend. Of the two reasons why we cannot do this, one the Government share with many of the museums, and the other—the net sum of money we wish to collect, and the tariff of charges for collecting it—falls entirely within the Government's policy.
The museums themselves differ on whether a free day would be acceptable from their angle—that is, from the angle of overcrowding and security. This is not a simple matter at all. There must always be a level at which overcrowding frustrates the purpose of a visit. That level has been reached at some museums, especially at weekends, in the recent summer months, and the Government think that overcrowding is bound to become more frequent. Of course, no one can be absolutely certain about the rate of increase in the number of visitors in the years to come, but the signs are that the rise will not only continue but probably become even sharper than in

827
the past. The tourist trade are in no doubt at all. Look at the number of new hotels being built in London; look at the number of package holidays which are being arranged, and the confident forecasts of the British Travel and Holidays Association. But, even more important, we ourselves, by encouraging schools to take a steadily greater interest in museums, are creating an ever larger attendance. I support those who think that these educational policies, together with the growing interest in foreign cultures, will have a snowball effect upon museum attendances.
I do not know whether any of your Lordships have had the experience in one of our museums of being in a particular room or gallery when it was seriously overcrowded. The discomfort for oneself is of course obvious. I took one of my grandchildren the other day to such a place and she was frightened and I had to take her out. But another result is that the warders cannot see what is happening. The danger of damage or theft is correspondingly increased, and this is a very real problem which we cannot overlook. If on six days of the week a charge were made and the seventh was a free day, it stands to reason that the attendance on the free day would be larger than at present—perhaps even 25 per cent. or 30 per cent. above the average. Kenwood is an example which points very much to an even higher figure. It is precisely this fear which causes some of the museums to think that a free day would not be in the public interest. I support them from practical experience. Nor do I think we could have free days at one museum and not at another, especially if the number of visitors at all museums is going rapidly to increase, which seems now as certain as anything can be.
The second argument against a free day is financial. For reasons I have explained, we have decided to ask the users of the national museums for a contribution of £1 million net a year. On present figures, if there were a free day we could not keep the basic charge for 10 months down to lop for adults and 5p for children and old age pensioners. The basic charge would then have to be 20p, since it is not practicable to charge any sum in between, because that would
828
require machines which handle two coins of different sizes and would be much more complicated. But, my Lords, in a few years' time, when we have the results of the proposed scale of charges, we can look at the case for free days and at all the other variations that have been put up to us. All I can say to-day is that I should not be honest if I did not tell the House that on account of overcrowding and security there is not, and ought not to be, any prospect of a free day at the weekend, unless and until we can enlarge the museums to an extent that will overtake the rise in the number of visitors at peak periods.
My final point is addressed to those who would be content with charges if the proceeds went straight back to the museum. This is what in fact will happen, if not directly, none the less certainly taking the national museums as a group. The annual increase in their vote will have to exceed by a comfortable margin what they collect in charges, and I can assure noble Lords that the introduction of charges will be an effective argument for obtaining more money for their rising requirements.
An example which has been in the news recently is the special grant of £380,000 offered by the Government towards the appeal for the Titian. We hope very much that the appeal will succeed. If it was in order (which I am sure it is not) I would actually be begging for money in your Lordships' House. But the estimated gross revenue from charges at the National Gallery is £150,000 a year. That is less than half the amount of this special grant, and of course the building and maintaining of the extensions which are now authorised to that Gallery will call for much larger sums. All this money has to be provided when charges in the social services are being raised and when the claims of those services might be held by important sections of the public, and of another place, to be even stronger than those of the museums.
This small Bill opens the way to large improvements in the museum service of the country. We are going to join the European Community. Your Lordships may think that this renders it all the more important that our cultural contribution should be as good as we can make it. We all know that the collections in our museums are without rival.

829
The challenge is to secure resources to make their display and the other services and amenities equally outstanding, and to further this objective we are asking the visitors to contribute towards the expenditure, which has to rise if the objective is to be attained. I know that a few people who now visit museums will be unable or unwilling to pay the charge. That will be a loss which I deplore and I am sure all your Lordships deplore, but on the other side of the account we can look forward to the total number of visitors and school parties increasing year by year. Surely this is the end which we must put first, and if anyone still objects to charges it must, I think, be because the full extent of the position of the museums, not only in London but also in the Provinces, has not yet been appreciated.
My Lords, I hope that I have explained what the position in the museum service is and how we believe that this modest Bill will make a real difference to putting it right. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª.— (Viscount Eccles.)
3.36 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, it is customary in this House to thank the Minister for explaining a Bill, but I am afraid I am not able to do so on this occasion as the noble Viscount, the Paymaster General, has hardly referred to the Bill before your Lordships at all. I would, however, thank him for explaining to us his policy in general and how he views his responsibilities. I should like, though, to turn to the Bill before us. This is an enabling Bill. As the Long Title says, it is a Bill
"to remove impediments to the making of charges for admission to the national museums and galleries in Great Britain."
In actual fact, the Bill lists only four out of 18 institutions set out in the White Paper. The Government consider, I gather, that they have sufficient legal and financial power to oblige the other 14 institutions, which include the National Gallery of London and the National Museum of Wales, to charge entrance fees, in many ways against their wishes. The noble Viscount has therefore been able to avoid Parliamentary legislation except in the cases of these four. But although the Bill is less than a quarter
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of the package, we on this side of the House take the strongest exception to it.
It is a mean and contemptible little Bill—a Bill that seeks to evade the issue. We should have thought more of the Government if they had come frankly to Parliament with a Bill that set out the charging scheme in detail, so that this could have been subjected to full examination by both Houses. But no, my Lords; the Government want trustees to shoulder responsibility for this unpopular and regrettable scheme and to pull the chestnuts out of the lire for them. However, for my part I shall not advise my colleagues to divide. There are compelling reasons why we should not divide on the Second Reading of a Government Bill. I realise that the Bill is starting its passage in this House, so we should not be attempting to reject a Bill previously agreed to by the other place. Nevertheless, this House does exercise re-traint in regard to Government Bills. The reason is, of course, that these Bills emanate from the elected Government, and the argument against voting them down is basically the same as the argument against voting down Government Bills that have been passed by the other place. I understand that there has not been a single case since the War when this House has divided on a Government Bill introduced first into the House of Lords. But although we shall not seek to divide the House, this is for constitutional reasons and not because we do not feel very strongly about it.
I should, however, like to give the House notice that at the Committee stage I shall be moving an Amendment which will seek to give a measure of Parliamentary control to these arrangements. This Amendment will require the Government to lay on the Table a statement which will be subject to the Negative Resolution procedure, specifying the charges in Great Britain and ensuring that none of the museums and galleries can charge until this statement has been before each House of Parliament for 40 days.
I should like to turn now to the four institutions in question. The first is the British Museum, the greatest museum in the world, as the noble Viscount once called it, and rightly, during one of his previous existences. The original Act of 1753 setting up the British Museum

831
stipulated free access, and the Museum has been free through good times and bad for over 200 years—indeed, ever since it first opened at Montague House in 1759. This long tradition of free entry is a very fine one, and it is tragic to think that it is to be ended. I am glad to see the Chairman of the British Museum Trustees, the noble Lord, Lord Trevelyan, in his place this afternoon. I am not clear whether the Museum's Trustees agree with their colleagues the Trustees of the National Galleries in London and in Edinburgh, who have announced their objections publicly, as the Museum's Trustees have remained silent except to say that they would take the views of Parliament into account, but I venture to think that this must be a sad day for them, as it is indeed for many of us. May I say that I am very much looking forward to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Trevelyan, and also, of course, to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, who is a Trustee of the National Gallery.
The National Galleries of Scotland used to charge on one or two days a week, but the Standing Commission on Museums and Galleries recommended that fees should be abolished, and since 1938 they have been free. In their report last March the Trustees of the Gallery in Edinburgh said:
"We believe that the proposed charge cannot but be damaging to the interests which we have been appointed to protect, and that the tradition of free entry is of great value ".
The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, spoke about a free day, and to my mind he seemed to contradict himself, because earlier in his speech he had denied that he wished in any way to keep the public out; but then he went on to say that one of the reasons for not having a free day was to restrict attendances. I realise that there may be difficulties in some instances, with security and so on, but surely this is a matter for the trustees of the gallery. If the Government appoint responsible and distinguished men to run these institutions for them, surely they should be allowed as individuals to make the best decisions in the interests of their particular gallery. The Trustees of the National Gallery in their last report said that there should be at least one free day a week, and I believe this view is shared by two other galleries in London
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and the two Scottish galleries mentioned in the Bill.
I should like to ask about exemptions. First, I make no excuse for putting in a further plea for all old age pensioners. The Government went some way to meet us over this matter when they announced in the other place last June that the charge for retirement pensioners will be 5p at all times, including July and August. The Government also said that they would look into the question of giving free admittance to pensioners receiving supplementary benefits, on production of their pension books. I realise that there are administrative difficulties as there are three books, one for the basic pension, one for the basic and supplementary and one for the supplementary pension only, and that as a matter of policy all books have identical covers. This is surely right, and it has been the policy of successive Governments to ensure that these books are indistinguishable when the pension is collected. But would it not, therefore, be simpler and better and less embarrassing for them to exempt all retirement pensioners? Perhaps the noble Viscount will let us have his views when he replies.
Then there is the question of children. The noble Viscount spoke about school children being allowed in free in prearranged parties, and this of course is welcomed; and he looked forward eagerly to the number of these parties increasing. But not all children want to go in pre-arranged school parties. Indeed, the child who feels most drawn to museums and who probably derives most benefit from them is often the rather individualistic and sensitive child who is happiest visiting them on his own rather than as part of a school crocodile. The charge for children not in organised parties will also deter family visits, especially for the poorer families and for those who live some distance away. When I went to the British Museum last Saturday it was full of people, usually two parents with three, sometimes more, children, and it is going to cost them a lot of money when they have to pay. I therefore urge the Government to think again and to reconsider the children. The sum involved is only about £150,000, and I should have thought that the educational benefits accruing to the nation as a whole from such a concession would

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be well worth the comparatively small amount involved.
May I also ask the Government whether they could consider exempting disabled people, including crippled children. When my noble friend, Lady Lee of Asheridge, who is going to wind up to-day, raised this point last August, the noble Viscount said he was in correspondence with the noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Ilion. I wonder whether he has any news to show that the Government are not so hardhearted after all.
I should like now to deal briefly with two other arguments of the noble Viscount. First of all, he talked about concerts. This argument is often put forward by supporters of this scheme, but I never think it is a valid one. Of all the three arts, literature can be reproduced and has been able to be reproduced cheaply ever since the invention of printing. Music can be reproduced very well now, with modern inventions, and played in the home. But for the plastic arts there is really no substitute, and although colour printing has advanced very considerably in this century there is absolutely no substitute for the original. Furthermore, the State does not, for the most part, own the concert halls. I think this is quite a different matter. There is also the question of special exhibitions. This argument is often put forward, and here again I think different conditions apply. I personally, and most of the people who are opposed to these charges, have no objection to charges for special exhibitions. They have to be put on and they usually have to be self-financing. They are there only for a short time, and people arc often prepared to go to see them and pay a reasonable amount, because they know that they will not have a chance again. That is quite a different matter from the way that museums and galleries should be treated, which people like to visit often for a short time, to derive inspiration from looking at a few works of art, and then to go away refreshed.
This may be the last year when our national museums and galleries will be free. We on this side of the House have made our views on these charges very plain during two previous debates. There was one debate initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Annan, in December, and one on an Unstarred Question by my noble
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friend Lady Lee of Asheridge, in May. I know of no other proposal that has aroused so much hostility. People in the art world are almost unanimous in their condemnation, and I find that opposition to admittance charges is irrespective of Party. Indeed, I find that many of the strongest opponents outside this House are Conservatives. How can the Government and the Minister remain so obstinate? What an epitaph they are earning for themselves: the Government that caused turnstiles to be installed at the entrance to the British Museum, and made people pay to see Magna Carta! I hope that this whole disgraceful policy will be changed by the next Labour Government.

HEALTH AND PERSONAL SOCIAL SERVICES
3.52 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE): My Lords, I apologise for interrupting this Second Reading debate, but this may be a convenient moment, if I may have your Lordships' permission, to repeat a Statement which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services is making in another place on Development in the Health and Personal Social Services. The Statement is as follows:
"The Government have decided to allocate a further £118 million to speed progress in improving conditions in sonic of the most vulnerable sectors of the health and personal social services over the next four years. Taking into account the extra £110 million which the Chancellor enabled me to announce in the House of Commons in November last year, this means that since the Government came to office 17 months ago they have made resources totalling some £250 million at present prices available for special improvements in the services over and above, and completely additional to, the cumulative increase of the order of £80 million each year which is included in the expenditure programme for normal development.
"My right honourable friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales will be informing the House of

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their proposals for development of services in those countries. The English share of the latest addition, amounting to £100 mill ion, will in the main be spent on expanding and improving services for the elderly and the mentally ill.
"I envisage that about £45 million of the money will go to the hospital service. The Government intend to improve hospital accommodation for both the elderly and the mentally ill. Some of the money will also be spent on improving the standards of such things as staffing, furnishing and food, and on increasing the number of places for the elderly.
"The extra provision will certainly not enable us to overcome all the problems of these hospitals but it will be enough to secure substantial improvements. In the five years ending in 1975–76 hospital authorities are expected to spend about £150 million over and above the level of expenditure last year on improved services in long-stay hospitals. Of this about two-thirds will come from the special additional allocations.
"About one-third of the latest £100 million has been earmarked for the health and personal social services provided by local authorities. In particular, I am sure that local authorities will wish to join with me in a determined effort to sweep away all the former Poor Law institutions still being used as old people's homes and to replace them with modern buildings. I hope this programme will be completed within the next five years. In this way we should at last dispose of the old workhouse and its Dickensian associations. I also hope that local authorities will be able to go a long way towards replacing the many old and not always satisfactory houses which have been' adapted to accommodate old people, and that they will, in general, make special efforts to provide more and better accommodation for both the elderly and the mentally ill. Additional loan authorisations of £30 million will be available to enable the local authorities to undertake these programmes.
"I am also making provision from the extra money to meet the costs of
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re-organising the National Health Service. The balance of the money is to be spent on a number of improvements: I intend, for example, to provide for increases in key staff for accident and emergency departments, and I shall have particularly in mind the need to provide more facilities for people with epilepsy, and the need both to develop and to evaluate and spread information about aids and equipment of all kinds for the disabled. Where appropriate, I shall be seeking the co-operation of the voluntary organisations as well as that of public authorities. The response of the hospital authorities in improving arrangements for the younger chronic sick has been such as to exceed the money I set aside from last year's £110 million and I am therefore providing the further sum required from the extra money now available. I shall be making announcements about these, and other developments later.
"Mr. Speaker, the whole House will, I am sure, welcome the Government's allocation of these substantial extra resources and will recognise the importance of the contribution they will make. to improving the health and personal social services."
3.56 p.m.
BARONESS SEROTA: My Lords, may I first thank the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for his usual courtesy in repeating the Statement made by his right honourable friend in another place. I am sure that I shall be expressing the view of the whole House in saying that we all warmly welcome the allocation of additional money to improve existing services both in the hospital and in the local authority field, particularly in the areas of greatest deprivation. I must first ask the noble Lord to confirm that this is new money and is not, and will not need to be, met either in whole or in part from increased charges now that the iniquitous and totally impracticable proposal to introduce cost-related prescription charges has had to be dropped.
With regard to the allocation of hospital monies which, as I read in the Statement, are to be spent primarily on improving hospital accommodation for the elderly and the mentally ill, I would enter a special plea and urge the noble Lord and his right honourable friend to see

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that some of this money is spent on improving facilities for children in our long-stay hospitals for the mentally handicapped as well. For these children the hospital is their home, and, in some cases, school as well. I very much hope that I have the support of the whole House in urging that, in addition to improving hospital living conditions for the elderly, we shall also spend some of this additional money on our long-stay children who are in hospital for long periods during their most formative years.
With regard to the section of the Statement dealing with additional money for local authorities, which will be warmly welcomed by all concerned, to develop the personal social services they provide, I should like the noble Lord to clarify one point. The Statement refers to one-third of this latest allocation of £100 million in England. The end of the paragraph concludes with a reference to additional loan authorisations of £30 million to enable local authorities to undertake these programmes. Am I right in thinking that the £30 million that is referred to at the end of that paragraph is in fact the one-third of the £100 million? Am I also right in thinking that the £30 million for loan sanction means that in the field of the local authority personal social services the additional monies will be capital monies only, channelled into new buildings and improving existing ones? If this is so, I would ask the noble Lord to consider whether some of this money can be used for the maintenance of the services. It is not enough for local authorities to build, provide and adapt; these are high labour-intensive services, and unless local authorities are given additional money specially earmarked for staffing the services they cannot run the homes the capital allocation provides. We need people to care for people, and I would urge the Government to allow some of the local authority allocation to be used to improve staffing levels in the services for the elderly, for the mentally ill and the mentally-handicapped, and for children in their care.
Finally, may I thank the noble Lord and his right honourable friend for a most welcome Statement, and particularly for the references towards the end of it indicating their interest in and concern for the special groups who need additional help—the epileptics and the
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younger chronic sick and the disabled, in particular.
VISCOUNT NORWICH: My Lords, five minutes ago my noble friend Lord Amulree was called away to render his own personal health service to someone (I am not quite sure who) in this House who has been taken ill. It therefore falls upon me to welcome most warmly, on behalf of my noble friends on these Benches, the Statement which the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, has just made.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I am most grateful to both the noble Baroness, Lady Serota, and the noble Viscount, Lord Norwich, for their kind welcome of this Statement. I am particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, who I know has a very deep interest in these matters. I would straightaway confirm that this is indeed new money and is in no way dependent on increased charges. I naturally take very much to heart what she had to say about children in hospitals for the long-stay mentally handicapped. Indeed, this is very much a sector of the Health Services where we certainly ought to do our best to provide improved facilities. As the noble Baroness is aware, in the recent White Paper on the mentally handicapped it is stated that we hope that more and more of these children will not have to be provided for in hospitals and that provision will be made for them to be cared for in the community. The £30 million mentioned, which is about one-third of £100 million, is indeed the loan sanction for the local authorities. I take the point the noble Baroness made about the need for additional revenue resources, but this particular effort is directed towards the plan for clearing away once and for all the old workhouses and some of the unsuitable buildings, and in this instance is capital money only. But I am very grateful for the noble Baroness's kind reception of this Statement.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, I am sure we all welcome the Statement of the Minister, but I listened in vain for those very important words "domiciliary services ". I am one of those people who believe that old people should be kept in their own homes as long as possible, and if we had adequate domiciliary services then so many more could have a happy end to their lives

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among their own bits and pieces and not in an institution. But the noble Lord did not mention these. Am I to understand that this money is all earmarked for institutions, or are the local authorities to have a free hand to use it for domiciliary services if they so wish'?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, this money that we are allocating to local authorities is indeed capital only, and is intended to sweep away the old workhouses. But, like the noble Baroness, we are all fully convinced of the need for keeping old people in their homes as long as possible; and, indeed, our policies in other directions are directed to this end. We have already made money available in the last rate-support grant negotiations for local authority extra revenue expenditure.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: It is very disappointing.
VISCOUNT AMORY: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware how pleased noble Lords in every part of the House will be at the announcement which he has made this afternoon, and how pleased I think we shall all be in general with the allocation of the grants to the objects he has mentioned, with the additional object, I hope, of the one which the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, has just brought to his notice. May I ask my noble friend whether he knows to what extent plans are in hand to cover improvements of this sort? I say that because it seems so very desirable, in view of the distressing level of unemployment in the country, that these efforts should be turned into actual expenditure at the earliest possible moment.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for his kind remarks. As a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, he will realise how hard we fought for this extra allocation of money. I think I can say that it has been the policy of successive Governments to remove these ex-workhouses, and one therefore hopes that there are plans for extra expenditure to clear them away. There are at the moment about 120 in use for old people, with some 13.000 places in them, and we are hoping that with this
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concerted effort and with this extra money, we shall be able to clear them away in about five years.
LORD DELACOURT-SMITH: My Lords, may I follow up the question which has been put to the noble Lord by the noble Viscount, Lord Amory? Can the noble Lord say a word about the likely employment consequences of the announcement which he has made, and can he give any estimate of when the expenditure indicated in his announcement may start to have an effect in employment terms?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I should like to make it clear straight away that this Statement has nothing whatever to do with the employment difficulties at the present moment, for which, as the noble Lord knows, there is a special programme of infrastructure works in which, again, the hospital service will be playing a part. This particular allocation is specifically for the development of the health and welfare services and, particularly, to improve them where we feel they are weakest. It may well take a year for the programme to get fully under way.
LORD DAVIES OF LEEK: My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord for that Statement which, in any case, is in keep ing with his gracious self? Without sounding churlish, may I draw his attention to the fact that there was a Royal Statement the other day which drew attention to the lack of general practitioners? If it is not out of order on this Statement, may I ask whether the noble Lord will draw the attention of the Department to this fact and to the fact that the time has now come to look again at the Willink Report, which did not give a broad enough base for the general practitioner? Finally, may I say that the base of this magnificent service is the general practitioner and, if he can be given the time, he can have a psychosematic effect upon a patient through giving him some serenity and confidence in himself. Quite often, this can save the time of the hospitals and other people, and the useless sale of unnecessary drugs.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord. Certainly we attach the very greatest importance to

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the development of the general practitioner services. There is some allocation within this money for the development of more health centres, and this in turn will assist the operations of the general practitioner.
LORD DAVIES OF LEEK: My Lords, we want more in the universities now.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, may I add an additional word of welcome to the Statement which we have just heard? May I also ask the noble Lord whether he can give some indication of when the later announcement will be made and whether it will include rather more specific allocations to the various heads which he mentioned in his Statement? In particular, may I ask whether some announcement can be made of the building expenditure intended for mentally handicapped children as an alternative to their institutionalisation in hospital, and also whether the additional maintenance requirements will be fully met, in addition to this intended building allocation?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I think these are rather detailed matters for me to go into at the moment. May I write to the noble Lord and give him some answers on the questions he has asked?
LORD AUCKLAND: My Lords, the Statement made by my noble friend will be welcomed not only by this House but by the country as a whole. My noble friend knows of my interest in the house committee of a mental hospital, and many of my noble friends and other noble Lords have the same interest. May I press my noble friend on this question of mentally handicapped children? Is he aware that there are still many cases of subnormal children, particularly boys, being kept in adult wards of mental hospitals, and can he give an assurance that these much-needed and very welcome funds will be allocated very carefully, with special priority being given to cases where this occurs, particularly in areas where there is already a desperate need for new hospital building and for an increase in staff?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, this particular allocation of money is especially concerned with provision for the old and the mentally ill, but I sympathise
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with the points which have been made by my noble friend. It is our policy that mentally handicapped children should not be in the same wards as mentally handicapped adults, and if my noble friend has any particular case in mind, and he will let me know the details, I will certainly go into it.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord what may be a minor question off the major stream of his Statement? It relates to these purpose-built new homes for old people. Will they be homes to accommodate 50 or 60 people, which seems to have bean the fashion at the Ministry during the last twenty years or so, and, if they are not, will he pay some attention to the advantages which that size of home carries with it? It enables people to be fed on a fine scale, to he accommodated on a decent scale and also—which is most important—to be able, out of 50 or 60 people, to find friends while they are in that home, because in a small home they often cannot find friends and as a result are very lonely.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I have great sympathy with what the noble Lord has said. These homes, of course, are built by the local authorities, and I am sure that they will take into account the sort of considerations the noble Lord has put forward.
LORD SLATER: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it so happens that one of these homes to take in some of these aged people has been opened within my own village only this week, and that it will give accommodation to about 36 people? But I have been looking at the figures of the cost per inmate so far as these homes are concerned, and I find that the maximum is £14 per week, coming down to a minimum of about £4 a week. I take it that this allocation is made in accordance with the financial circumstances of the individual. I wonder if the Minister is in a position to say whether this operates on a national basis. Does it differ from one area to another, or is it a basis that has been laid down nationally by his Ministry?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I think this is rather outside the scope of the Statement. Perhaps I could let the noble Lord know privately the answer to his question.

MUSEUMS AND GALLERIES BILL [H.L.]
4.14 p.m.
Second Reading debate resumed.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, we have just had a very welcome Statement from the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, about buildings for health purposes: now we turn back to the Second Reading of a Bill which, we understand from my noble friend the Minister, may provide more buildings for the Arts. Before I make one or two points about the Bill, may I make it clear that I am speaking in a personal capacity and not, for example, as a member of the Council of the Victoria and Albert Museum. Like, I believe, many of your Lordships, when I heard initially of the proposal which is given form in this Bill—namely, that there were to be charges for admission to museums—my instinct was one of dismay, and I was against it; and we all know that many of the governing bodies of the museums, and indeed many other people who care earnestly about these things, felt the same way. But, my Lords, the more I think about it, the more I wonder whether my instinct is right.
The first reason why I wonder whether my instinct is right is when I think of the position with regard to many of the other Arts, be it music, be it the theatre, be it television or the cinema (because they sometimes are in the artistic field) or be it the written word, poetry or prose. In all those cases, those who participate invariably have to pay, and indeed expect to pay, I think, in one way or another. What is it that gives the visual Arts the special right not to have to pay? My Lords, I cannot really find any good reason. The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, was talking about the National Gallery, and he said that for over 200 years no payment had been demanded. That, I know, is in a sense a good reason—
LORD STRABOLGI: I am sorry, my Lords; I did not want to interrupt the noble Earl. I was talking about the British Museum.
THE EARL or PERTH: My Lords, my point is the same. I am sorry if I said the National Gallery; I should have said the British Museum. I can well understand that there is a traditional reason
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why people mind. But, my Lords, tradition or custom are only wise if they continue to be sound, and I think that in this case tradition is no longer sound. We have heard from the noble Viscount the Minister that there is a great need for the expansion of museums, be it by way of new buildings, be it by improvements in existing buildings, be it by help for the Provinces or be it help for travelling exhibitions—for all the things which we know are greatly needed. But those things take money, and we have also heard—and we all know this—that costs have gone up greatly.
Now what is it that allows us to say, "Very well, but the visual Arts should be free; the museums and galleries are exempt from this "? My Lords, I cannot find the answer. Indeed, I should like to think of it in a much more positive way: not as an excuse, but positively to welcome this enabling Bill if it means that the sort of things which I care about and which many of those who visit the museums care about are going to happen: that we are going to see better museums and are going to have more certainty that the treasures which might otherwise leave this country will remain here. I also understand the difficulty that Ministers may have when they are fighting a battle against others who have claims on the Treasury. We all know the difficulties that any Ministry has in trying to get its share of the cake. Suppose, my Lords, the Treasury said, "For the Arts, certainly, we are very ready to increase the amount that is available—for the theatre, for music and for others of the Arts. But since the visual Arts do not seem to care very much and are not prepared to pay, we are going to leave that Vote where it is". That sort of consideration surely indicates the importance of those who participate making some payment.
It has been suggested that we might get around the difficulty by some form of voluntary subscription. I should like to tell your Lordships of an experience which happened to my wife and me a few weeks ago, when we were in America. One day my wife visited the Metropolitan Museum in New York—and we had often heard that this was a very good example of how the Americans work these things voluntarily. Before my wife had gone very far she was stopped by

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an attendant who said, "You have not got a badge ". She said, "A badge? I do not understand. What is a badge for?". He answered: "You have to get a badge. You have to make a payment, otherwise you cannot come in. "Then she went to where she had to make the payment and asked, "How much?." The reply was, "Well, it is voluntary; but the usual thing is about one dollar. "Now if my arithmetic is right, one dollar is worth about 40p and what I gather the Minister is proposing at the present time is 10p. I went a little later; I went about 4.30 in the afternoon and I was expecting the same experience. It did not happen. Nobody stopped me. I do not think that I was so dressed as to make them think that I could not make a voluntary subscription. I suspect that the reason was a simple one: it was that it was 4.30 p.m. We must remember that the museums close at 5 p.m., and the people simply thought that it was not then worth trying to get people to pay because of the short time remaining before the museum closed.
That brings me to a suggestion that I should like to put to the Minister. Could he not adopt the same practice here? Could he not allow entrance to be free from, say, half an hour before closing time? I am sure that the attendants, who probably have many other duties, would welcome the fact that they would no longer have to worry about turnstiles. It would go some way to ensure that those who wanted to go, and who really cared, would have a chance to do so. I should have thought that, in practice, there was a lot to be said for this idea; and the principle of free entrance would be in some small degree retained. I hope that my noble friend will think about that and perhaps will even be able to say that it is a "starter."
My Lords, I know that I have not talked about the Bill as such; but I do not think that ordinarily it is expected that speakers, other than Ministers, in a Second Reading debate should do anything more than talk in rather general terms in relation to the Bill. I am worried about its possible relation to Scotland and particularly in relation to the National Gallery there and the Torrie pictures. When the gift was made costs were very different and the requirements of museums were very different.
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I wonder whether the donor would have expected the same rule to apply to-day when people are very much better off and when, by and large, they can afford to pay. I am sure that if I were a trustee I should feel that it was not breaking faith to acknowledge that there should be some payment for seeing those pictures. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, who said that this was a sad day because it was the beginning of a time when museums were going to charge. I think my view would be that, if it means better things for museums, it is not a sad day. I think it is a day when I shall be glad because it means that things which I want to see happen will come about.
LORD GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, before the noble Earl sits down may I ask him to face this fact: that museums do not exist for trustees; that they exist to enable those who are very poor (as I once was) to get an idea of culture and imagination? My visits to the museums gave me a new inspiration. Does he not think therefore that if you are going to make an entrance charge that such people will not go to them—as I would not have gone? Does not that fact make this a sad day? Does it not make this a sad day for the noble Earl that I might not have gone?
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I do not quite know how to answer the noble Lord. From his point of view it might have been very sad; but I wonder whether, really and truly, he would not somehow have—
LORD GEORGE-BROWN: Not a possibility, my Lords!
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, if he could have gone with a school party, which is allowed to go in free—he shakes his head. Perhaps he would not have wanted to go.
LORD GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, it was not possible.
THE EARL OF PERTH: But, my Lords, the opportunity would be there to-day; and we are talking of to-day and not of the past.
BARONESS LEE OF ASHERIDGE: My Lords, I do not want to take up the noble Earl's time but I have always regarded him as a man of gentle feelings.

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Is it not rather strange that he should say that people are so much better off to-day when we have this background of a million unemployed? Is he forgetting them?
TIME EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I do not think that that is a point which is relevant to this discussion. Like all noble Lords, I deeply regret the unemployment figures. On Wednesday we are to have a debate on the Scottish economy when I shall hope to be able to throw out some ideas on that; but I think that that subject is not related to this Bill.
My Lords, I will finish in this way. While I regret that Lord George-Brown, as he said, would not have gone to any museum, I think that if this step means better museums up and down the country, and better opportunities for people to see them, then on balance that will be the best thing.
4.27 p.m.
LORD BETHELL: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, in opposing this Second Reading pointed out, correctly I think, that there are very few measures which this Government are proposing to which the Opposition have such strong hostility and objection. This is a surprising state of affairs; and I hope this afternoon to say a few words to try to clear up in my own mind, and perhaps in some others, why this is and whether it is correct. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, raised the point about the poor, because this is something which bears directly on the principle behind this Bill. It is something which worried me in the beginning, something which I think can be solved and about which I should like to make one or two suggestions. The noble Lord, Lord Annan, when he introduced his Motion last autumn also expressed his worries about people no longer being able to "pop in for half an hour "to the galleries and the British Museum. This is another worry. These are points of detail which perhaps will be cleared up when, after the Bill has become law, a little time has elapsed and we have been able to see how it works.
First, the problem of the poor who visit the galleries, who find in them inspiration and who, some people are afraid, will not be able to do so in the
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future. A large number of these are students. Students, I imagine, make up a large proportion of the poor, nowadays. Their income is very low and the £1 which it will cost to buy a season ticket is a large sum of money to them. I am wondering whether something more could not be done for students. I know that a scheme is under way providing for them to go round in organised parties and I hope that my noble friend the Paymaster General will be able to answer one question which interests me about whether students and schoolchildren can find some means of going round museums and galleries on their own. I am told—and I hope that the Paymaster General will be able to put me right on this point—that it is possible, or that it may be possible, for students and schoolchildren to go to their teacher and say, "I am interested in going to the British Museum "—or to the National Gallery or to some local authority museum—"frequently. Could you please write me a note to enable me to gain admittance?" I am sure that teachers would be only too pleased to do so.
VISCOUNT ECCLES: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord would like me to answer straight away. Yes, of course that is going to be allowed, in exactly the same way as a student wishing to get a reader's ticket to the British Museum or the Victoria and Albert Reading Room gets a chit; and they come all the time. I think that is a very satisfactory process because the staff then know whether the young person has a serious interest in the museum and they are more likely to help.
LORD GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, before the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, continues his speech, may I say that I think he has raised a very important point. The noble Viscount the Paymaster General says, "Yes, they can get chits ". I am not interested in whether their teacher knows that young people are interested; I am interested in how much it is going to cost to provide all these exemptions. At the end of the day how much do we get out of it, and would not it be better just to encourage children to go all the time free?
LORD BETHELL: Well, my Lords, as I understand it, the Government are obviously doing their best to keep down

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the cost of administering the scheme. It is made clear in the White Paper that the Government do not expect the cost of administration to be more than 10 per cent. of the receipts. I am glad to say that the Paymaster General has confirmed my impression that some sort of scheme about chits can be, and will be, arranged. I think that this could be done within the range of the 10 per cent. administration costs, and that would be excellent. I trust that such a scheme will work well.
The problem about people visiting a museum for half an hour is, I think, a real one. I often spend periods of even less than half an hour in the National Gallery. I shall buy a season ticket when it becomes necessary to do so and I shall not be discouraged from going there. The only thing that might discourage me—here again I think this is a point which the Paymaster General might answer later if he is able to do so—is a small matter but one which frequently arises. What happens if I have left my season ticket at home? Do I have to pay? My Lords, I am a member of the Marylebone Cricket Club and I frequently drop in there for half an hour. Sometimes I do not have my ticket with me. If that happens, I am invited by the attendant to sign a book and declare that I am a member and entitled to free entry. Would it be possible to have a book available for people to sign when they attend without their tickets? Otherwise there may be some people who wish to visit a museum for half an hour but would not do so.
The other main category of the poor are the old-age pensioners. I am delighted to hear that they will be admitted for only 5p the whole year round. I wonder whether it might not be simpler to let them in entirely free. I cannot think of any reason why not, although there may be an administrative reason. If there is, I hope that my noble friend the Paymaster General will be able to tell your Lordships about it. One of the problems of this scheme, as was pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, is that we need to keep the administrative costs as low as possible, and this bedevils all the exemptions which noble Lords would like to see introduced. It is a question of striking a balance between a
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whole range of possible exemptions and a prohibitive cost of administration.
The other main objection to the Government scheme is that fewer people will visit museums. I have not seen much convincing evidence that this will happen. That objection has been raised airily, and facts have been quoted about the number of people who attend at New York museums on non-paying days compared with the number who attend on paying days. I am not sure that that is very relevant. On the other side, some very convincing evidence has been provided about increases in charges to visit the Tower of London and the Jewel House. Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Lee of Asheridge, if it is her impression that these charges will in general reduce attendances, will be able to give the House her reasons and we shall see whether noble Lords are convinced by her argument.
BARONESS LEE or ASHERIDGE: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord would allow me to answer that question straight away. I think that the general increase in interest in museums, the teaching that goes on in schools and the rest of it, will mean that the forward flow of attendance will increase. That does not alter the fact that some people will be excluded.
LORD BETHELL: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness and I agree that some people will be excluded. My noble friend admitted that. He said that a few people would be either unwilling or unable to pay. Again we are reducing the question to one of striking a balance. My noble friend does not believe that the number of such people will be very great and neither do I, especially if the Government are able to work out one or two further exemptions to enable the poor to attend museums and galleries as frequently as they would like.
My personal view, with which I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Lee of Asheridge, seems to agree, is that when charges are introduced initially attendances may dip very slightly but will soon pick up and increase, probably at the same rate as at present, which is very fast indeed. If that does not happen I shall be very surprised and I shall eat my words. If the scheme is modified after two or three years, which may

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happen because my noble friend the Paymaster General has not ruled out that possibility—he is not being dogmatic and is prepared to consider suggestions for modifications as and when it seems necessary—and should it emerge that the attendances drop, I would support a radical modification in the whole principle. But I do not think that will happen and I am glad that the noble Baroness seems to take the same view.
The expression "matter of principle" has cropped up frequently in the three debates that we have had on this question as also has the term "ideology". I think that is right: it is a question of principle and of ideology. The noble Baroness, Lady Lee of Asheridge, suggested last autumn that the Paymaster General was committing"ideological hara kiri". I would agree with the noble Baroness that if she were a Member of a Government and introducing such a scheme, it would be ideological hara kiri;. it would be contrary to the ideology of her Party. But it seems to me that for the Paymaster General, a member of the Conservative Party, to do so is the very opposite; if you like, it is ideological resurrection.
The Government could have approached this problem of providing the necessary better facilities in our museums and galleries by allocating the taxpayers' money purely and simply where it was necessary. But from our ideology there are objections to that. One, of course, is that, on the face of it, it is unfair to most taxpayers who do not want to visit museums. Against that, of course, we have to balance the need of education and the cultural needs of the community.
Noble Lords on both sides of the House rightly take the view that subsidies out of general taxation are necessary to serve the minority which takes a particular interest in culture. But the present Government have taken rather the way of compromise. They have taken an approach very similar to that adopted by successive Governments towards university education. University education is the right of all who can attain the necessary qualifications and obtain a place at a university. If one obtains a place, one is expected, if one can afford it, to pay a contribution. If one cannot afford it, one does not pay a contribution. Ideo
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logically this is totally consistent with the views of this Government and of the Party which forms the Government in the scheme by which users of museums and galleries will pay a small contribution—one-tenth of what we are told is the cost of every visit, on what I imagine is a rough-and-ready computation.
It seems to me only fair that the consumer should pay for an experience which is not only educational but also entertaining and generally worth while in every way, if he can afford it. If he cannot, then he should obtain it free, as he obtains other necessary social services free. This is pure Conservative thinking. Finally, since to my mind the Opposition have failed to show that the proposed charges will put visits to museums and galleries beyond the pockets of a significant number of the public, and since they have failed to show up to now that attendances will decrease, I will support the Second Reading of the Bill.
4.42 p.m.
LORD ROBBINS: My Lords, I must say that I was fascinated by the suggestion of the noble Lord who just sat down that the system of gallery charges should be placed on the same footing as university finance. My imagination boggles at the thought of administering a scheme whereby people with an income over a limit of £1,500 a year or something of that sort pay and the rest get in free. I doubt whether the Paymaster General, with his accustomed ingenuity, will be able to get round that one.
LORD BETHELL: My Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Lord, I was not suggesting that this scheme should be put on the same administrative footing at all. I was saying that the idological principle was similar.
LORD ROBBINS: My Lords, I think that I ought to declare an interest in this matter. I am, and have been for many years, I am lucky to say, a trustee of the National Gallery. That is to say, I belong to that sociological classification which the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, I notice, alludes to frequently, sometimes I am sorry to say with evident distaste, as the"artistic establishment". In plain English, we are a body of persons appointed by Her Majesty's Government, who according to their lights, no doubt very dim in the estimation of the noble

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Viscount, spend a good deal of their spare time trying to preserve and improve the galleries and museums which are the heritage of the people of this country.
I dare say that we do not always put our case very well. Obviously we have totally failed to impress the noble Viscount. But certainly we, too, have the concern which I know personally the noble Viscount has, for the quality of life of the ordinary people. I must say that it saddens me a little to think that the noble Viscount, whose achievements I admire and whose intentions I respect should habitually speak of us, as he did in last Saturday's Times, as a sort of esoteric, self-admiration society, out of touch with life and incapable of rational argument or comprehension. But all that is by way of a declaration of interest.
On the main subject of the debate, I should like to say at once that I do not rise to rehearse once again all the arguments against the principle of charging. In common with my friends at the National Gallery, I greatly regret what we are being compelled to do—that, of course, is the plain fact of the matter. But I personally agree that there are arguments in favour of charges which reasonable men can discuss among themselves without bitterness. Certainly I think that the noble Viscount is right when he argues that what is done so widely elsewhere and also sometimes at home—I was glad that my article reminded him that charges were made at Hampton Court and that he has also let your Lordships into the secret that charges have been made at the Tower of London—cannot be regarded as one of the major social outrages. I agree with him, too, though some noble Lords may not agree with me on this, that it cannot be regarded as being a tremendous financial burden on the majority I say "the majority" and not all—of the users of the galleries.
I cannot, of course, agree with the noble Viscount's funny argument, lumping the National Gallery with the Royal Opera House. I should prefer to lump the National Gallery with St. James's Park, both State supported institutions which are not overcrowded at a zero price. But I really fail to understand the noble Viscount on the question of overcrowding. At one time he seemed to be
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in favour of charges to prevent overcrowding and at other times he declared his scorn for any such argument.
Leaving that rather esoteric point apart, I regret the disappearance of a freedom of which we were all proud, which was envied by the curators of and visitors to galleries abroad where no such freedom exists—that is to say, the freedom of all citizens, both dustmen and dukes, to enjoy together the delights of a great spiritual heritage given or bequeathed, chiefly by private donors, for exactly that purpose. It is not only a case of one or two Scottish bequests, important as they are, which fall into that category. More than three-quarters of the pictures in the National Gallery have been given to and not bought by the nation. And although, of course, it is a foolish game to argue too much about the intentions of the dead, I think I would stick my neck out and say that most of them, from J. W. M. Turner downwards, hoped that all at large would be free to enjoy the riches that they were leaving behind them. That has gone.
As trustees, we were not consulted before the charge was announced. I read in The Times that there were procedural reasons, though not revealed beforehand to members of the National Gallery, even if they had been public servants, why no hint could be given before the production of the mini-Budget; though it has occurred to me, going back to my recollection as a public servant, that feelers can be put out without indiscretion, so as to give Ministers the benefit of the opinion of those most closely in touch. However, we were not consulted. We made private representations to the noble Viscount and we made public statements, I hope always of a respectful and not unfriendly nature. While, as the noble Viscount protested, beating his breast, so to speak, to The Times interviewer, that he would listen to us, I am certainly not aware that this had the slightest effect on his resolution. So we have had to capitulate. As the noble Viscount said on a former occasion to your Lordships' House, we get our money from the Government; and because we think that there are even more important things at stake on which we have to protect the interests of the public, we have submitted. We are doing what the noble Viscount has ordered us to do.

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But, my Lords, as I said, my purpose in rising is not to go over all that again in detail. I rather want to make a plea to the noble Viscount for some greater degree of flexibility in the system that he is imposing on us. I want still, at this late hour, to plead for greater liberty; to plead for greater flexibility in administration: and, in particular, I want to plead for permission for those boards who wish it to allow a free day in this system —one day on which the charge is not imposed. I am not asking for a general rule. I am not at all sure that all boards would wish to do so. And—may I anticipate what the noble Viscount may say in his comment?—I can easily conceive conditions in which I myself, given the fact of charges, would not be prepared to run the risks of a free day. But I am arguing simply for elbow room; I am arguing simply for some degree of discretion. I doubt whether even the noble Viscount can regard this situation as a totally outrageous one. He has often, in public and elsewhere, adduced as an argument for his policy the policy of Continental galleries, but he cannot use this argument against what I am pleading for at the moment, for the simple reason that, rightly or wrongly, some of the Continental galleries, at any rate, have precisely this safety valve. If the noble Viscount is thinking that what is good enough for the French is good enough for us, then he cannot object, on principle at any rate, to this degree of flexibility, whatever he may have to say by way of administrative convenience.
I wonder whether the noble Viscount appreciates how strong an argument on principle can be mustered in favour of this flexibility, where it is practicable. Let me concede to him what so far he has not been prepared to concede to anybody: that whether or not to charge for day-to-day enjoyment is a matter about which reasonable men may hold different views; it is not a matter of fundamental dogma. It is a question of how to pay for common enjoyment. Surely we may agree to differ about that without forfeiting mutual friendship and respect. But—and this is the point—the galleries exist to provide not only enjoyment but also education: education in the means of enjoyment; education in the means of a full life later on. While
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it is true that the noble Viscount is facilitating collective tours and so on, what his system cannot do is to provide for the individual who needs to be tempted to discover his own potentialities. I do not think that the noble Viscount's 10p, which is less than the price of a pint of some kinds of beer or a packet of cigarettes, is going to deter even many of the poorer people who already love the arts and value the quality of life which contact with the arts engenders, but I am sure that it will deter quite a number of persons who, on a free day, might stroll in experimentally, so to speak, and so discover the life-enhancing stimulus which this sort of interest confers. I personally do not want them to be deterred.
At the National Gallery, at least, we think that we can handle the greater crowding of one free day a week; and we believe that we could better discharge our function of bringing art to all and sundry if the noble Viscount were to allow us to do so; but hitherto he has been quite unrelenting about this. The loss to the Revenue, he thinks, would be too great. To make it good he would have to charge 20p all the year round. In a past existence I was an economist. I used to be referred to sometimes (very wrongly) as a hard-faced economist. Even now, in my old age, I am not indifferent to considerations of cost. But I confess that when I hear the noble Viscount talking in these grave tones about the orders of magnitude involved, I am reminded, if I may quote poetry in your Lordships' House, of the couplet of the poet Pope which runs:
"Why has not man a microscopic eye?
For this plain reason: man is not a fly."
The total amount that the new system is expected to yield is miniscule in relation to the national finances. Is it really the case that this minor concession for which I am pleading—I am not talking about charges in general—on the part of those galleries which think they can manage it is going to impose such a burden that, in relation to the extra happiness and education that it would involve, it must be regarded as totally insupportable? I seem to remember reading somewhere of tribes which are so poor that they buy sugar by the lump rather than by the ¼lb. Are we really so badly off as that under this Government? I repeat

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that I am not asking for a general rule to be laid down in this respect. What I am pleading for—and here I am sure I speak not only for the group that the noble Viscount calls the "art establishment", but for all sorts and conditions of ordinary people—is just a little more flexibility and imagination in the administration of this innovation.
May I conclude with an appeal to the noble Viscount? I am not asking him—and I am sorry that I am not—to abandon his whole policy at this moment. I am a realist in this respect: I realise that, like Macbeth, he is
" … in blood stepped in so far that … Returning were as tedious as go o'er."
I am only asking for some sweetening of what, for many people with whom I believe he shares fundamentally many hopes and fears, is a very bitter pill to swallow—the sacrifice of a freedom we have prized and regarded as a national glory. I personally have a great admiration for what the noble Viscount has done both for learning and for culture. He helped save the British Museum and he is actively involved in imaginative schemes for developing it. I must say that it would be a very great comfort to me to be able to say to my friends: "Well, we do not agree with the policy, but we must admit that not all we have said has fallen on deaf ears and at least he has done his best to meet our more modest supplications."
5.4 p.m.
LORD ST. JUST: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, is perfectly right when he says that this is really an enabling Bill. That is exactly what it is, and during the course of the debate this afternoon we have travelled round palaces, the Royal Opera House and the Coliseum. I see the noble Lord, Lord Birkett, sitting on the Cross Benches. I so often think of the debates we have had in this House on the film industry, which, after all, is another part of the Arts; and we have juggled round talking about the Film Finance Corporation, the question of the unions, the pool of scriptwriters and all the problems involved in trying to raise more money for the British film industry, which is potentially one of the finest industries in the world.
I spoke on this subject during the last debate on the galleries and museums, and
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I stated then that I personally thought it was necessary and right, on what the Paymaster General had said, to impose these charges. I must honestly say, that after hearing the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, this afternoon on the subject, talking about when he was a young man, and after what the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, has said, I am severely shaken; but I wish we could come to some form of compromise either over a free day or concerning the last half-hour, as the noble Earl, Lord Perth, mentioned. I think this is important. I am certain that it is difficult to administer, but I wish the Paymaster General would have another look at this question to see whether some way can be found so that people who are really keen on seeing the collections in galleries and museums can do so completely free, even if it is only for a short period.
There are not a great many points I want to make. The Paymaster General said this afternoon that the charges will be accepted as Exchequer monies. I think this is a pity, because I feel that the Road Fund has served as a warning over many many years. But there it is: obviously the Treasury have a great say in these matters and the noble Viscount has not been able to win the day.
May I now put a few points to the Minister concerning small practical problems? Take, for example, the problem of the Victoria and Albert and the British Museums. If a scholar wishes to go to the Art Library in the Victoria and Albert, which I think is accepted generally as the finest in the world, he is issued with a pass. The library being situated in the centre of the museum, will he or she be able to wander around in other parts of the museum? It seems to me that it will be very difficult to stop this happening. I feel that this is the sort of point that should be looked into. Is it possible for the Paymaster General to give us any idea how many turnstiles will have to be erected in the bigger museums? There are many different entrances, and I think we should have an idea about these things.
Now, if I may, I should like to turn to a totally different point and say no more about the charges which, in principle, I agree with. Perhaps one of these days the Paymaster General will be able

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to look into the question of Somerset House and see whether or not we shall be able to get this magnificent building as a museum, which it certainly should be. If it were to be a museum, I think it would be far finer than the Louvre in Paris.
5.8 p.m.
LORD PLAIT: My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, I do not intend to go over all the arguments once again. I liked the words he used: that at the end of all the arguments, when they have been deployed, we still feel that we are losing a freedom which we are all proud of. I realise that the noble Viscount, Lord. Eccles, cannot be in his place the whole time, but I am a little sorry that he is absent just at this moment because I was going to question the meaning of this Bill. It seems to me there is something extremely sinister here. The Bill says—and this is really all it says—that,
" … the trustees or other governing body of any of the other institutions mentioned below may make such charges for admission to any museum or gallery as they may determine."
From what the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, has just told us, it seems to me that this is not the intention at all. The Bill should have been worded that the governing bodies,
" … will make such charges as the Paymaster General for the time being shall determine",
if they are not even to be allowed to make experiments concerning such things as a free day per week. This is not implied in this Bill at all, and I hope that, for this reason alone, at the Committee stage those words will be questioned and the Bill will perhaps be turned out on those words.
LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON: My Lords, I have taken a note of what the noble Lord has just said, and I will see that my noble friend Lord Eccles gets it.
LORD PLATT: My Lords, having said that, I would add that my real concern (and I know that I have said this before in this House) is for what I may call the lower-income, middle classes: the school teacher types, the junior civil servants, the married students. These are the people who are going to come off badly, yet among them are the people whom we
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surely want to favour most, the people who can make use of higher education and cultural opportunities. They have not had any concession from the Government, and they are not on an income level where a reduction in income tax means anything to them. The price of their food rises week by week; the cost of the fares they have to pay to go to work rises week by week. These are the people whom I am worried about and who are going to be hit by this Bill. There are also the people who pay numerous short visits, although they may be accommodated by season tickets. The sum of £1 is a great deal too much to pay for a season ticket. A season ticket should be something to show that you are a frequent visitor. You should be able to purchase a season ticket for not more than twice or, at the most, three times the cost of entering the museum.
I am somewhat influenced by the argument that abroad people have to pay to go into most—not all—galleries and museums, and that we have enormous numbers of tourists, many of whom could perfectly well afford to pay, and we are losing considerable income to the nation. We must not think of all the tourists in that sense. Many are students and are of the class that I have been describing. One of my grandsons recently hitch-hiked to Istanbul and spent six weeks abroad for less than £50. Many of the tourists who come to this country have done that and are touring cheaply. I wonder whether the noble Viscount listened to the plea of the noble Lord, Lord Annan, in the first debate that we had on this matter, that there should be a trial period, trying other methods than the imposition of a charge. There could be a trial period where a voluntary charge might be imposed, or the raising of more funds through many kinds of methods: selling reproductions of pictures, postcards and so forth, development of the commercial side. The goal is such a small one—a target of a million pounds—from which there will be the cost of administration to be deducted, and the balance will go straight into Treasury funds. I could not follow the noble Earl, Lord Perth, who seemed to be arguing that this was a small price to pay for getting a million pounds for the museums: but we have been told in quite distinct terms by the noble Viscount that that is not where the money will go. He has told us that

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he is going to spend more money on museums, galleries and so on, but there is no direct relationship between paying this charge and getting a return in that way. In fact the relationship is, "If you do not pay it we shall not look after you".
My Lords, one last word. A good deal has been said about music. In the first place, it is a different matter. An artist, connoisseur or collector can give to a museum, art gallery or a nation, for all time, a work of art, a picture, sculpture or some objet d'art. But he cannot give to the nation for all time a performance of Beethoven's Seventh Symphony, so they are not one and the same thing. In any case the main argument is that we have had this freedom in England and we are now going to lose it. Almost every home has a radio set, and you can hear great music free of charge—and even free of tax now—on the radio every day of your life.
5.14 p.m.
LORD TREVELYAN: My Lords, I have a special interest as Chairman of the British Museum trustees, but I am speaking personally. There are about 25 trustees (I should know the exact number) who, naturally, do not all think alike. I cannot speak for any of them: each of us has an equal voice in our affairs. I am afraid that the noble Lord. Lord Strabolgi, will be disappointed: I have spoken once on this subject but have nothing of great moment to say today, though I have a few practical points to raise.
I agree with the noble Viscount that a great deal of money is required for the building and staff of the British Museum. I hope that the money will be forthcoming and wish him every success in his efforts. I personally do not see any important principle involved either way—perhaps I have not got any principles. But compared with the amounts to which reference has been made in the Government's Statement this afternoon (very large sums indeed) the amounts involved here are relatively small, and I should judge it questionable, to say the least, whether it is worth while to collect this money in view of the strong emotions aroused among many distinguished people, and of the inevitable administra
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tive clutter, complications and delays which are inevitable if charges are to be imposed. I have a predilection for administrative simplicity. I should have preferred it had we been able to try the system of the Metropolitan Museum, to which reference has been made by the noble Earl, Lord Perth, whereby one has to pay something, but one is asked to pay what one thinks fit. I like the variation which I believe is seriously being considered, that you should pay on your way out, when your generosity has been stimulated either by the glories that you have seen or by the fact that your feet hurt so much that you want to get out at any price.
I am glad that the charges are modest. That is important. I hope that we shall not see them doubled annually. I agree with the noble Viscount that the idea that the charges should go directly to the museums is pointless under our financial system. If that was to be, presumably the Government would cut an equivalent amount off something else. On the free day question, there are fairly good administrative reasons against this, but I have no very decided view either way. One important point is that students should get their concessionary rate on individual presentation of a recognised student's card as at the Queen's Gallery. I should be grateful if the noble Viscount could say something on this.
My noble friend Lord Robbins made a plea for flexibility and discretion. In the present circumstances I would rather say that if charges are to be imposed we may need, in the light of experience, to make some changes in all or perhaps some of the museums and galleries. I do not think it will necessarily be desirable in the future for every museum and gallery to be treated alike in every particular, since they are so different in character.
I should like to give my own view on the position of the British Museum which was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi. I emphasise again that this is my personal view. The Museum is not at present concerned, since the trustees are not permitted by law to charge. They have neither accepted nor rejected anything. But the trustees derive their powers from Parliament. If Parliament amends the Act in a way which clearly indicates that they want the trustees to charge, the

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trustees must take into account Parliament's wishes. They must then decide the question in accordance with their views about the balance of advantage to the Museum's visitors; scholars, students and the general public. I cannot anticipate their decision.
5.20 p.m.
LORD GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, I speak here, as a non-hereditary Peer, for the hereditary section of this nation: the dispossessed, the non-possessing. I have listened to the debate this afternoon. I listened to trustees; I listened to connoisseurs, people with their own private art galleries. May I put in just a word for the mass of our people who are not students, not teachers or lecturers, who are not graduates, and who do not have their own private art galleries?
The noble Lord, Lord St. Just, was kind enough to say that he was slightly moved when he thought I said that I spoke for the poor. I do not speak for the poor in terms of money; I tried to speak for the poor in terms of dispossession. It may be that money is more easily available to people now than it was when I was young; it may be that one should multiply by a factor of four or five to obtain a true comparison. What I do know is this great city here—and the position may be even worse in East Anglia, or Nottinghamshire, or anywhere else. I speak for this great city, where there are millions of young people wandering about, not knowing, where to go. And I speak for myself. I just ended up visiting a museum. It was not because I was, in the words of one noble Lord who has just spoken, led to want to see nice things; I just ended up there. But because nobody doe's the noble Lord wish to interrupt?
VISCOUNT ECCLES: I do not, my Lords.
LORD GEORGE-BROWN: Because, my Lords, this is a very serious matter, and if noble Lords on the other side do not understand this they will get this country into a real mess. As I was saying, I ended up in a museum. I first saw a picture, I first read something, simply because nobody got in my way. If I had been asked to go from Black-friars to the National Gallery and pay a certain sum of money to go in, I should
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not have gone. But, wandering around this great city, I went and I found; I began to look, began to listen and began to read.
Leave out all the nonsense about students. My children have been students. My children are now teachers, but they have become teachers because I began where I began. Many people are not there yet. Leave out that nonsense. There are still very many children in this great city who ought to find their way in, without any obstructions at all, and it is for this great hereditary class that I make my non-hereditary appeal.
What is the argument? Why do we not leave these places open? The noble Viscount is a great connoisseur of the Arts and has his own personal gallery. What is his argument? He says that he will get £1 million. Ask Mr. Barber, in relation to what he has to raise and what he is going to give away, what £1 million represents. If it is any help to the noble Viscount, I may add that I have been through this exercise. The Chancellor of the Exchequer says,"I must have x hundred and 99 million pounds and I have only x hundred and 98 million pounds. so from whom can I take the last million? We will get the noble Viscount to explain to the House of Lords that we can take it out of the museums."
The noble Lord, Lord Robbins, puts up a case for a particular kind of exemption. The noble Lord, Lord Trevelyan, puts up a case for another kind of exemption. If I were on the same terms with the noble Viscount the Paymaster General as those two noble Lords are, I could put up a case for another kind of exemption. By the time the noble Viscount has accommodated all these cases for exemption, what is left? It is the barrier to the boy who might wander into a museum, and this surely is the worst thing of all. Our museums, our musical places, even Hampton Court and even Kenwood where they play music in the evenings, are all places where it is just possible somebody wanders in, somebody looks or listens, and the quality of life of that person is changed. We cannot charge for that. It cannot be evaluated. My Lords, we simply cannot put a price tag on that.
I wanted to say to your Lordships' House simply that I feel as I felt when

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the Labour Government would not put up the school leaving age on the day we had decided that it should be done, but postponed it. This House, like the Labour Cabinet then, is—let us face it —full of people who have had advantages. I did not like people who had been to secondary schools, grammar schools, public schools, universities, deciding that kids who had had none of those advantages could not stay at school for another year. I did not like that. I should have resigned, but I did not. I do not like being in a situation where everybody here has been able to buy these advantages since they began, but starts putting little bits of problems, little bits of obstruction, in the way of those who have never had these things and yet who might find their way into these places.
The amount involved is only £1 million to-day, minus all the exemptions that we give. It will cost more to give the exemptions, but it is an enabling Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Trevelyan, asked whether the figure would go up. Of course it will go up. Once give the Treasury (and I see the noble Lord, Lord Roberthall, in the House) their way in, and the figure will go up. I beg this House really not to impose these charges. Every single one of us, myself included, can walk round these places, as I often do now, and enjoy the beauties they have to offer. Many people cannot do so. I was once one of them. It is for them I speak; it is for them I appeal. It honestly is not worth it. If we want a democratic society, if we want to be able to say that we do some things which other people do not do, it is bad that we should do this. I know the constitutional position about the Opposition, but if anybody could be found to divide the House with me, I should be very willing to divide the House to-night, my Lords, on something I regard as not just retrogressive in political terms but a very, very bad thing to do.
5.30 p.m.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, I should like to raise one point arising out of this Bill; I understood the Minister to say in his opening observation that if there were to be any increase in the lop basic charge it would have to be doubled to 20p because of the difficulty of having machines capable of handling two coins
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of different denominations. But we see in the White Paper that the proposal is that children shall he charged half-price —that is to say, 5p—and this means that the turnstiles will have to be equipped to deal with 5p pieces in large numbers. Therefore surely it would be possible in the tourist season to have a general charge not of 20p but of 15p. When I speak of tourists I am not speaking about the wealthy American tourists; I am thinking particularly of working-class tourists who come to London from the Provinces. I think they might take with a good heart an extra 5p charge, paying 15p during the tourist season instead of 10p, but I believe that people of this sort will strongly resent being expected to pay double the charge that is to be levied on people whom they regard as the prosperous Londoners throughout the whole of the other ten months of the year.
5.32 p.m.
LORD BIRKETT: My Lords, before the closing stage of this debate I have one suggestion to put to the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles. I have listened with great interest to the debate, but I cannot say that I have been able to make up my mind. I can see clearly, with the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, that it should be possible for people to enter free; I can also see very clearly with the noble Viscount that we need the money. One thing, however, surprised me. Until this afternoon I had always thought that a million pounds was a considerable sum of money. Suddenly I find that it is a"fleabite", scarcely worth squabbling over. Since, however, a squabble there is, may I put one suggestion to the noble Viscount?
We have heard that the money is to be used to house and to exhibit better the treasures that we have in our museums—something of vital importance, since it is known that we possess three times as much as is actually on view. May I also beg him to do one further thing; namely, to bring all the influence he can to bear upon the museums to make sure that what we have is preserved, restored and does not deteriorate. I ask him to do this before it is too late and before his building programme catches up with it. The noble Viscount has been roundly accused this afternoon on all sides of being autocratic. May I now beg him

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to be a little autocratic in this direction: that he will insist upon the preservation of our treasures—almost, perhaps, before he and his friends buy another Titian.
VISCOUNT AMORY: My Lords, may I, as an old Treasury man, beg the noble Viscount to believe that a million pounds is a very large sum.
LORD ROBBINS: My Lords, may I be permitted to intervene to assure the noble Lord, Lord Birkett, that at the National Gallery there are not three times the number of pictures not on view, as he seems to suppose. All the pictures at the National Gallery are on view, except those which are lent to the Provinces, to Ministers, and a few which are in the conservation studio.
LORD GEORGE-BROWN: And they are beautifully shown, my Lords.
LORD TREVELYAN: My Lords, may I assure the noble Lord, Lord Birkett, that the British Museum has the best conservation laboratory in Europe?
LORD BIRKETT: My Lords, I was not thinking of these two distinguished museums alone. As the noble Viscount well knows, there are many museums which are not in such a fortunate position. However, I am most reassured to hear that £1 million is after all a valuable sum.
5.35 p.m.
BARONESS LEE OF ASHERIDGE: My Lords, I have listened to every word spoken in this debate and have had ample time to ask myself whether we have lost all sense of proportion. Here we are, in the cloistered comfort of your Lordships' House, discussing a matter affecting museum and gallery charges. We are doing it in a world where we are all too conscious of great menacing problems coming at us on every side. I mentioned incidentally to the noble Earl, Lord Perth, that he must not forget that we have a million unemployed in this country, and it might be asked what we are doing this afternoon—fiddling while Rome burns? We are discussing something of very great importance indeed. I have had to ask myself that about myself and about others—the many of us who care fervently about the issues we are discussing this afternoon.
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Why do we care? What is it that the Paymaster General has done to create opposition which must be unrivalled in so many different quarters? A little earlier my noble friend Lord George-Brown made a splendid contribution to this debate. It is no secret that the noble Lord and myself have not always agreed on every issue. There are Parties that have often disagreed on many issues, but we can thank the noble Viscount for the fact that we have a completely united Labour Party—Right, Left, Centre, old and young—united in our opposition to those charges. The noble Viscount must also take into consideration the fact that there is a completely united trade union movement, under Mr. Vic Feather. In Mr. Feather we have a General Secretary who, in his own person, has been deeply interested in the arts. He is not a rich man and he has not a rich man's collection, but he has a splendid collection of pictures and sculptures; the little"bits and pieces"that a poorish man has been able to pick up; and he was my close friend and ally when, for six years, I had responsibility for the Arts. So does it matter nothing to the Paymaster General that there is total opposition on behalf of the Labour Party, the trade union movement and the Co-operative Party, and that we are united, old and young? We may differ on some things, but We are absolutely united in our opposition to these charges. I wish I could speak for the Liberal Party, but I am not sure about them. I think that in the main they are with us. I should like to be able to say that we had united the Liberal Party as well as the Labour Party.
I could not help recalling, while listening to some of the arguments that have been brought forward, that we have not heard so much to-day about people not appreciating what they do not pay for. The logic of that, of course, is to charge for libraries and for schools—and historically this is not so far away. The Liberal Party has fallen on evil days, but at the beginning of the century and in my grandfather's young days it was the great, dominating Gladstone Party in Scotland. It was the Liberal Party to the"Grandee"—my grandfather; "Grandee"in a child's eyes, but not in wealth. He was a miner, victimised from pit to pit, not because he was lazy or weak but because he was trying to form a trade union movement. The Tory Party

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tried to stop it, as it has tried to stop progress on so many other fronts, but with the Keir Hardies and the Bob Smillies of that generation the movement went forward.
My home county in Scotland—Fife—was the first county in Scotland where the children got free books, and they got them because there was an alliance between the Liberals and the Beginnings"—the few pioneer members who, from being Gladstone Liberals were becoming the Keir Hardie Socialists. But at the beginning of the century the Tories in Scotland used precisely the same arguments that I have been hearing to-day: that if the children got something for nothing they would not appreciate it. What an extraordinary argument—something for nothing! And here to-day we have a rich man's Government; a Government that could hand back 6d. on the income tax as one of its first acts, and, as we all know, that meant not a single penny to people below the level of paying income tax, and it worked out on the good old Tory principle of "the more you have the more you get". Nobody can deny that, in terms of their priorities, this was one of the first things done by the present Government. Only the other day Mrs. Thatcher announced that she was going to give £2 million to grant-aided schools. This is another case of priorities, because we cannot chop it up and say that there is so much for education, so much for the Arts, so much for defence. We know perfectly well that the Chancellor of the Exchequer must do an addition sum, and the allocation of funds between Departments and within Departments is a matter of priorities. Sometimes, my Lords, you can understand the quality of an individual or a Government more by the small things they do than by the big things.
What pleasure does it give the Paymaster General, as a well-to-do man, to embarrass poor people—because it is an embarrassment? We are told that old-age pensioners will get in for half price. I do not know how many of your Lordships' House mean to take advantage of that principle; but straightaway, of course, we are made aware of the fact that this is a broad, crude process: it is not according to means, rich or poor. If you are very young or very old, you can go in for half price, but if you are in
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the middle years you have to pay the full amount. There is no sense in this.
When we think in terms of exemptions, of course the individual child ought to have no impediments put in his way; my noble friend made that point eloquently in his opening speech. Of course it is a good thing that children should be taken in groups from schools, and we know how unwilling some are to go. We have heard again talk of concern for the special ones. Is it not a rather special youngster who wants to go along on his own or with a pal? Are not we putting impediments in his way? It is so mean, so ignoble.
The question has been raised whether this is a matter of principle. I will say what I consider to be one principle involved. If we in this country cannot go forward at least do not let us go backwards. As the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, said so eloquently, free access to our great museums and galleries is a gracious thing, something that was admired and envied by many countries. Many of us have been in Rome and have seen the galleries crowded to suffocation on the free day when the natives could go in. I know the spirit in which from many parts of the House a plea has been made for a free day. As a compromise measure even that is better than nothing at all. But is it not undignified to think that our own people have to crowd in on the free day? Would it not make you feel uncomfortable that you go in when there is leisure and space because you can afford it? There is no criteria of merit or need in any of this; it is simply a brash, crude application of the kind of Tory policy that many of us had hoped belonged to the past.
After the 1914–18 War we had what was called a Government of hard-faced businessmen. We know what happened then. We remember our returning soldiers begging in the streets. But even in those awful between-war years we did not feel that we were so badly off, as apparently we are under the present Government, that we had to scrape the bottom of the barrel in this ignoble fashion. After the Second World War we had a different kind of Government. I mention that for this reason: it must not be assumed that in times of exceptional financial stress we have to cut into our cultural opportunities, because

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exactly the opposite is the truth. During the Second World War, when the bombs were raining on our cities, ENSA flowered and we had the best talent from the whole of the world of the arts giving its services. Men and women who were serving at home and abroad have said that they heard great music, listened to lectures, had opportunities during the War which they had never had before.
It would have been such an easy argument, and some people would have thought a very logical one, if in 1945 with our industries demolished—they had to be reassembled; blitzed homes had to be rebuilt—the Government of the day had behaved like hard faced businessmen and had said, "There is no place in our priorities for the things of the mind and the things of the spirit". But they did no such thing. Sir Stafford Cripps, who was abused so often for his austerity, found £11 million for the Festival of Britain. I have mentioned that before in your Lordships' House, and I make no apology for mentioning it again, because I think it keeps the historical perspective. Aneurin Bevan, whom you might think had enough to attend to at that time—he was both Minister of Health and Minister of Housing—nevertheless fought for the principle of local authorities being enabled to spend sixpence of the rates. Did he do it because he was indifferent to the homeless or to people without hospital beds? What hypocrisy! Governments must go forward on all fronts.
I mentioned the early years of the century, the beginning of the Labour Movement. Some of us in this House are third or fourth generation. I know that on the Government Benches there are many noble Lords who have a great feeling for tradition. I, too, have a great feeling for tradition. I feel that you are doing something intolerable to everything that not only the present generation of the Labour Movement have fought for but that our fathers and grandfathers before us fought for. They never fought for bread alone. It would have been easy for an unemployed man or a vicitimised miner walking from pit to pit to think that all that mattered was hunger or his belly or physical things. But he would never have had the stamina to fight the people who did not want the Labour
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Movement or the trade union movement to come into existence if he were lighting for bread alone.
Of course, the whole tradition of our Labour Movement goes back far beyond William Morris and Ruskin, back to the days of John Ball or that poor working man William Blake who has become fashionable. Let us talk about philosophy. Our philosophy is deeply based on the fact that a good Government and a good society must attend to the things of the mind and the spirit as well as to material things. In the main, noble Lords on the Government Benches have had more opportunities than most of my colleagues. Are they proud that they should be picking on the most sensitive, the poorest among us—because it does not matter if you are rich and insensitive—to do this ignoble thing?
Now I have to qualify what I have been saying. This type of measure embarrasses not only the very poor; it embarrasses some very fine people who are well-endowed with worldly goods. They feel that it is a little indecent, ungentlemanly; they are embarrassed to think that this matters nothing to them in terms of their economy. Then, to come to the practical side. I checked only this morning to make quite sure of my facts, but I thought I remembered that Mr. Hugh Leggatt had loaned the portrait of the Third Duke of Richmond to the National Picture Gallery of Scotland. He has loaned it for the past eight years. I asked for an estimate of how much it was worth, and I am told that it may be, roughly, £100,000. This picture is very interesting apart from its artistic merits, because not only was the third Duke of Richmond a great patron of the arts, but he was something more: lie was a great champion of the independence of the American Colonies. Therefore there are quite a number of American dealers who are anxious to get this picture. What kind of encouragement is there for a patron of the Arts who wants to give specifically in the great tradition that what is given—as my noble friend Lord George-Brown and some other noble Lord said—should be equally available to Duke and dustman, whoever wants it? What incentive is there to give?
Have the Government taken into consideration how much they may be losing? We shall be talking about £1 million.

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I do not think that the Government are going to get £1 million out of these charges. I am trying to get the Paymaster General out of his office, and need not try very hard as he will not be there much longer. But I should be very grateful if, when he comes to reply, he could give us an estimate of the cost of the turnstiles. Some of the poor, embarrassed trustees and curators are trying to put in desks instead of turnstiles, as being a little less unwelcoming. Does the noble Viscount know, for instance, that the Tate Gallery will require an extra staff of six? In fact, it has been given an extra staff of six in order to collect those odd pennies, but it possesses a lorry without a driver, so that at the moment it is not able to take pictures not in use to safe keeping away from the Gallery.
Of course the fabric of our museums and galleries is important, but the contents are more important; and the people are more important still. It is quite true, as the noble Lord, Lord Robbins. said. that some of our great national galleries have a wonderful conservation service, but it is also true that there is a great need. If the Government can afford to supply additional manpower, I can suggest better ways of using it in conservation, and on educational ways and means in our galleries. Six men are being added to the payroll of the Tate. How much is that going to cost? I am told that 14 are being added to the staff of the Victoria and Albert Museum. I am quite certain that the noble Viscount has the figures. Will he tell us how much is needed for the British Museum and the other museums? It would be very interesting if he could give us a sum. All those extra staff have to be paid to collect this ignoble money. Yes, my Lords, I said" ignoble money"; and it is ignoble money. The noble Lord, Lord Robbins, was perfectly correct when he said that, compared with the scale of a great nation's expenditure, it is a fleabite. If we had any proper sense of proportion of the true values of life, we should see that we are doing something which is not worth while.
I want to say one more thing and if I may have talked this afternoon in straight Party terms, please remember, my Lords, that for six years I never once, when I had responsibility for the Arts, made a Party speech; I never once made a
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political appointment. I was sometimes criticised by close friends in my own Party that I did not make Party capital out of it. That was not my philosophy. I believe that there is a field of public life which belongs to the world of consensus. There is a humanistic field, and surely this is something that your Lordships care and know about. Because you have done a good job dealing with humanistic issues such as capital punishment, homosexuality, and all sorts of issues which the other place sometimes found too hot for them to handle. In your Lordships' House such subjects were dealt with seriously by people from all quarters who had knowledge and who had compassion. I tried to extend this field to the Arts. I went to local councils, large and small, and said, "Don't make the arts a football between the two sides. Fight the barbarians on both sides. We need all the recruits we can get. "I am sure now that I could not have done my job if it had not been for the superb support I received from men and women of all Parties.
I owe a special debt to the trustees, directors, and curators of our great museums and galleries. When I was appointed in 1964 many of them were scared stiff. They believed what they had read in the papers. They believed that Members opposite represented the gentlemen's Party" about the Arts, and that a crude Socialist was coming in with thick boots to trample over their rights. But once they realised that, not just individually but as a Party, we did care, I had the most superb help. I was completely moved by the dedication and the knowledge of our trustees and directors. I cannot imagine myself being so arrogant and I am not an unduly humble person as to think that I could pit my personal judgment against the collective wisdom, experience, and advice of those to whom we had delegated the care of our museums and galleries. As the noble Viscount knows, when his fellow Trustees in the British Museum suggested that he became their chairman I at once agreed, and I had full delegated responsibility from my Prime Minister. I consulted nobody. I did it straight away, because he had been working with the Trustees and the Trustees thought that he was the right man for the job. Politics did not enter into it for me, and indeed I

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agreed with the suggestion because I knew that the noble Viscount cared a great deal about the British Museum. In fact, he cared so much that he took over the scheme that my right honourable friend Mr. Ted Short, as Minister of Education and Science, was able to get through the Labour Cabinet towards the end of the last Parliament. I was delighted that he did so, and that he cared so much.
What is the present relationship between political Ministers and our trustees? Are we going to have a situation in which the Arts reflect the views of the noble Viscount to-day, reflected my views yesterday, and will reflect somebody else's views to-morrow? We cannot have that; it is contrary to our entire tradition and way of working. There arc very few countries in the world that could do something so liberal and sophisticated as to have money coming from Government sources but responsibility delegated to men and women of great experience and dedication, and the judgment as to how best the money should be allocated left in their hands.
What has the noble Viscount done? He has not only antagonised the whole of the Opposition—we have never been so united on anything as on this; we could not possibly be more united and at one—he has also performed another miracle. I found that for six years there was often a great tension between the so-called "establishment" in the Arts and the "young crowd", the avant garde, the young experimental people, but they are shoulder to shoulder now from David Hockney and Bridget Riley to Henry Moore, Francis Bacon, and the noble Lords, Lord Robbins and Lord Trevelyan, too. It has been made quite clear in this House that our trustees are not co-operating willingly; they are being blackmailed. They are in a situation in which their dignity as trustees is being tampered with; in which they are being told that they do not know best, but that the political Minister, of the day knows best. What a situation when you have trustees of the eminence of the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, the noble Lord, Lord Trevelyan, and others here, pleading with a political Minister to give them just a little bit of freedom so that, according to the special circumstances of their institutions, they might be allowed to have even one free day.
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In conclusion, may I say that I am very sad and very distressed that the noble Viscount, who could have had such a wonderful reputation and who of course means so well, should have tarnished his reputation by this mean little Bill. He has shown great courage in standing up to practically everybody who knows and cares in this very special world. But what is he being courageous about? He is being courageous about humiliating poor people—because that is what this comes down to—because some of them do not want to go in at half price, and some of them will not go in at all. Therefore, I say that I regret this very much indeed. This is a matter on which we should have had a free vote. I am no Latter Day convert to the free vote. I have always believed in it, and I believe that on certain great issues the other place was refreshed when Members could speak and vote freely. But the Government have their Whips assembled. There is not much point in voting to-night as the Government will get this measure through. The Government may think that this is a small matter, but it is not. It cuts very deep in areas that are important and I am quite sure that the Government will live to regret it deeply.
6.2 p.m.
VISCOUNT ECCLES: My Lords, there is one part of the speech of the noble Baroness with which I absolutely agree, her description of herself as a good Minister for the Arts. I think I have said before—and I shall go on saying it —that she was an extraordinarily successful Minister for the Arts. I am not going to be tempted to enter into the political parts of her speech, especially those that went backwards, but I understand that if you have great talent on the platform and for six years you deny yourself making any political speeches at all, it is really only fair that when you leave the other place you should be allowed to go back to those subjects which are, in their way, passionate interests.
I should like to turn to the speeches that have been made. I thought it was quite a coincidence that my noble friend Lord Aberdare should be announcing that very large sum of money, over £100 million, for the Health Service, particularly when he mentioned the mental hospitals, which of course are a part of

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the Health Service and which, with all their care for other people which the noble Baroness told us about, the last Government appeared unable to put right. The fact is that these are enormous sums of money; and as the Arts want enormous sums of money, so I must somehow do my best to get a slice of the cake which will enable my right honourable and noble friends in the Government to do a great many things which we think are as much in need of fresh resources as things in the Health Service or raising the school-leaving age to 16. That is really the purpose of the whole exercise, which looks very small; but then a key often looks small in comparison with the door which it may open.
The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, asked me a number of questions. I was rather interested in what he said about free entry for 200 years to the British Museum. If my memory serves me right about the original charters of the British Museum, it is perfectly true that no-one had to pay, but the director was enjoined to admit only 10 people every three hours. That was the way, at the beginning of the British Museum, that they restrained people from coming in. But I quite agree that there is a departure from a tradition that has gone on for a very considerable time.
The noble Lord asked about old age pensioners, as did my noble friend Lord Bethel]. Of course one would like to make more exceptions, but I think this is just a matter of balanced judgment. We think it would be best to start this scheme off with the basic charge for 10 months in the year of 10p only, and half for children. If our calculations are right on the estimated number of attendances by categories—and of course there is a certain amount of doubt in the calculations—we shall get just the million, which is the figure we have set ourselves. I was asked about the cost. The gross takings would be about £1·2 million, the cost of the machines would be £55,000 for the 18 museums, and the cost of running would be 10 per cent. of the £1·2 million, or fractionally over. I cannot be absolutely sure at the present moment.
The noble Lord, Lord Airedale, asked, Could you not allow more concessions but put up the basis charge to 15p?"
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He also asked about the machines. The point is that a machine which handles only one coin is apparently very much easier and does not break so often as a machine which handles two coins of different sizes. So you would have one separate machine for the children and the old age pensioners, and another machine for the people who have to pay 10p. It is said by the experts that people would not want to dodge from one machine to the other, which they would have to do if they were paying 15p. I am afraid that this is rather a technical matter, but I have gone into it quite carefully and I am advised that I cannot really recommend anything between 10p and 20p.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, my plea was for a 15p charge during the tourist season, leaving the 10p charge for the other 10 months.
VISCOUNT ECCLES: My Lords, I quite understand the noble Lord's point, but if we had a 15p charge at any season we should have to have machines all the year round to deal with it. Several noble Lords raised the matter of children not in parties. Of course some children are "carried in arms", which I understand is the technical term, and I believe that means children under the age of 3. Of course they will be allowed in free, just as they are allowed to travel free on British Railways. But as regards children over that age, it does not appear to those whom we have consulted that there are many children nowadays who do not have pocket money. We have looked at this aspect and this is the difference between the childhood of the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown—and the time when I, too, was a child—and the present day. I do not know what was the average pocket money then, but we are now told that children between the ages of 0 and 15 have £125 million a year, £24 million of which they spend on sweets. Furthermore, the state of the toy industry is strikingly different from when the noble Lord and I were children. Last year £190 million was spent by parents on toys. All I am saying is that I think it would be wrong to imagine that children to-day have the same very small amount of pocket money a week, or none at all, as happened before the war.
LORD GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, I do not want to go into the difference between the noble Viscount's childhood and mine, but did he say that up to 3 they are regarded as being babies in arms? I shall be very surprised if that is true, but I just want to get it quite clear that that is what he said so that the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, and the noble Lord, Lord Trevelyan, can operate on that basis. Did he also say that when they are no longer babies in arms, and are between the ages of 3 and 15, they have £125 million a year to spend? Is that what the noble Viscount is saying?
VISCOUNT ECCLES: My Lords, I said between 0 and 15.
LORD GEORGE-BROWN: Between 0 and 15? There must be less between 0 and 3. How much between 3 and 15? It is absolute rubbish!
VISCOUNT ECCLES: I think it is not rubbish. The noble Lord, if he likes, can check what I think are called the household budget statistics, where he will find these things. I am merely making the point that it is not the case that children are now so poor; and if you go to the Science Museum, where the child proportion of the total number of visitors is the highest, and talk to the people there, you hear some very interesting things about the children and what they have to spend.
On the disabled, my Lords, I ought to have reported to your Lordships' House that I told the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, that we had difficulties in defining a disabled person, but that if that disabled person were in a chair then of course the attendant would be exempt, so that there would be only one instead of the two entrance charges to pay.
BARONESS LEE of ASFIERIDGE: My Lords, have I got that quite clear? The noble Viscount would exempt whoever might be wheeling the chair, but not the cripple?
VISCOUNT ECCLES: Or the other way round. It could be the other way round: nothing for the cripple and—
BARONESS LEE OF ASHERIDGE: Why not both?
VISCOUNT ECCLES: It is thought it might then be abused to some extent. My noble friend Lord Perth made the very interesting suggestion that during the last half hour the public should be admitted free. I think that that point would need consideration. I do not know what the attendants would say about that, but, anyhow, it could be one of the matters looked at after the charges have been established for a certain time. I think I could tell my noble friend that, in my own view, if we ever can make a concession there I am rather in favour of a free period in the dead of winter, because when one looks at the graph of the attendances one sees how extraordinarily similar it is in all those places, and how in the very dead of winter—let us say between Christmas and the middle of January, or even between Christmas and the end of January—it falls right off.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I have been pondering what the noble Viscount has just said about when a cripple is being pushed by an attendant. How can he possibly justify charging an attendant who is rendering the cripple a service?
VISCOUNT ECCLES: I do not know, but I believe there are various precedents. I will look into that point again, my Lords. My noble friend Lord Bethell said that he might lose his season ticket, and he asked whether he could then sign a book, as at the M.C.C. The M.C.C. is a very limited club, and I have no doubt that my noble friend is well recognised on arrival at the M.C.C. But it would be rather different, I think, at one of the national galleries; and I expect that if he does not have his season ticket he will find that he will have to pay the ordinary charge.
Coming now to the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, I should like to give him the flexibility that he asked for, but in regard to the National Gallery I am in some confusion. He says that the Trustees of the National Gallery would very much favour a free day; in other words, that they are not apprehensive about overcrowding. But we have recently had a survey made by the Department of Education called Museums in Education, drawn up by, I think, Her Majesty's

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Inspectors, and this is what they say about the National Gallery at the present time:
"The Gallery gives every encouragement to schools which show an interest in visiting. One such a policy is a booklet",
and it goes on to describe the booklet. It continues:
"However, with an average daily attendance of 5,000 from October to Easter, rising to between 10,000 and 20,000 in spring and summer, there is reluctance to undertake any additional publicity which might result in such overcrowding as to diminish the pleasure of visitors."
I asked about that statement, and what it means, of course, is that the National Gallery feel they have enough schoolchildren at the present time in the summer. This is what they told the inspectors. I want many more schoolchildren to go, and I have no doubt that if we do our publicity well, and if the museums have more space than they have now for giving instruction to teachers as to how best to take children round museums, we shall get a very large increase; and that is exactly why the National Gallery even now, with no question of there being the bunching up on a free day, do not want any more publicity for schoolchildren. I think that when this is what they tell us in this matter, we should be very careful before saying that a free day can be safely introduced.
I think, my Lords, this is where I really differ from the average trustee and, I believe, from quite a number of noble Lords on the other side. I am absolutely convinced that if we stimulate the demand to go to museums, if we produce or write literature, if we get on television the right help, we are going to see a very large increase in the attendance. After all, it takes a long time for a change in teaching in the maintained schools to come through in the adult population, as in the case, for example, of a change in taste or a different level of information. This is now beginning to happen; and, as we all want to stimulate it still more, we cannot wait for the overcrowding; we cannot wait until there have been semi-scandals. We surely ought to prepare for this now. I am quite prepared to talk to the Trustees on this matter, but I seriously doubt whether they would be wise to take the view that there should be a free day at the National
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Gallery. Of course, one would not dare risk it except in the middle of the week, and then one comes up against the objections which the noble Baroness, Lady Lee, has pointed out; that not everybody really wants a free day.
I know that the noble;Lord, Lord Robbins, is one of those who say, more or less,"The money is so little; why do you worry about it?"My noble friend Lord Amory gave him the right answer. It is not very much money compared to what we need. I have just been looking, at this season of the year, at the Estimates which I should like to get through. It is not very much money, and no doubt I shall get what I want; but it is something that will help when all these other claims for domestic expenditure of one kind or another have to be put one against the other; and, unpopular though it is, I believe that I shall do better this way than by giving in.
LORD ROBBINS: My Lords, I just want to get the Record straight. I do not wish to enter into an argument at this stage as to whether a million pounds is or is not a large sum of money. I made my remark in relation to the reduction in the net revenue which would arise from the introduction of a free day at the National Gallery.
VISCOUNT ECCLES: My Lords, I can give the noble Lord the figures for that, if he likes. There is an estimate going round, given by Mr. Hugh Leggatt, which is not accurate. It may be that this has been drawn to the noble Lord's attention. The present estimate of the amount of money which the National Gallery collects in a year is £150,000. I suppose that if we had a free day, and assuming that one-fifth of the total weekly attendance will go on that free day, it means (and this is being very favourable to Lord Robbins) that the amount we should lose is £30,000. But as a result of free days we might have to raise the basic charge, because I am not prepared to see it happening in one museum and not in another to start with. We have of course other museums and more forward-looking ideas of the increase in the attendances. We might lose one-fifth of £1 million; that is, £200,000 a year. It is that which I cannot do and keep charges down to 10p. I think that is worth it. It may prove not to be worth

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it in a few years' time, but it is worth it in starting the scheme.
My noble friend Lord St. Just also wanted a free day. I took notice of that. Any reader in the Library in the British Museum while still in the British Museum will get a benefit, in that he will be able to wander round the Museum without having paid an entrance fee. I could not ask them to pay just to go down the passage. The noble Lord asked how many turnstiles. I am afraid I cannot tell him precisely. We think the total cost will be £55,000 for the machines and the erection. The noble Lord, Lord Platt wanted a change in the wording of the Bill. That would be unusual but I am quite willing to consider it. I should say to him and to the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, that I have never been influenced by what happens in any foreign country. I do not care what they do in France, Germany or Italy. What we are doing here is I think in the best interests of the British museum service. I think I have never been found to quote an example from overseas.
The noble Lord, Lord Platt, also suggested the voluntary charge, but my noble friend Lord Perth dealt with that. I hardly think the voluntary collection. either on going in or on going out, would really suit the British public. I do not think they are quite like the American public. I am very doubtful whether, if you said that you ought to get £25,000, it would work. I was grateful for what Lord Trevelyan said and, as always, we will try to work with the Trustees of the British Museum.
Lord George-Brown spoke about the very poor people. He did not come when I was speaking before and he is not here when I am speaking now, but perhaps I may be allowed to refer to him. What interested me was that it is precisely these people who are not now museum-goers and who have perhaps lost out a bit in education whom I wish to attract; and they will not be attracted in very great numbers until the museums are enlarged to take care of them. You need all kinds of devices, such as particular rooms where you can have a discussion and where they can go and handle objects and that kind of thing. It is because our museums are not capable
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at the present time of handling large numbers of exactly the sort of people that Lord George-Brown cares about—and so do I—that I want a big programme of expansion, if we can get it. Lord Birkett said that the Bill should pay attention to preservation. That is very necessary outside London. Most of the great galleries in London have admirable conservation departments, but it is not so in the Provinces.
My Lords, I hope that I have answered the questions that have been asked of me. I realise that this is a very hard thing to take for those who are accustomed to free entry and who think it is a great liberty. I think that what I am asking the House to consider is how much do we want to put the museums in a much better order, and have we really begun to make them what they should be if everybody—particularly those whose education begins and ends in our maintained schools—is to have a reasonable chance of going in and, when he gets there, of getting the amenities and information and so on. We have a tremendous way to go before that is possible. I should like to give it a small start, and this Bill is designed for that purpose. I commend it to the House.
On Question. Bill read 2ª and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

LEGAL AID (EXTENSION OF PROCEEDINGS) REGULATIONS 1971
6.28 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD HAILSHAM OF ST. MARYLEBONE): My Lords, I rise to move the first Motion standing in my name. I can say very little about this one, although I may have to make a slightly longer speech in respect of the second, and I rather trust that the Scottish Motion which is associated with each, perhaps with the consent of the House and to its greater convenience, may be dealt with at the same time, because so far as I know they are identical, mutatis mutandis.
This particular Statutory Instrument, the Legal Aid (Extension Proceedings) Regulations 1971, simply gives effect to my undertaking to the House at the request of the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, on May 27 last (column 1318 of the

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OFFICIAL REPORT) to apply legal aid to proceedings before the Industrial Court. There are many controversial matters in the Industrial Relations Act, in relation both to the Industrial Court and to other provisions, but I think that this promise of mine did not meet with any kind of controversy. Therefore, unless there is some particular aspect of it that I can deal with at the request of noble Lords, I will just: move it with those words, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Legal Aid (Extension of Proceedings) Regulations 1971 be approved.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LEGAL AID (SCOTLAND) (EXTEN SION OF PROCEEDINGS) (No. 2) REGULATIONS 1971
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRIJMALBYN): My Lords, as my noble and learned friend has said, this Statutory Instrument is in identical terms, mutatis mutandis. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Legal Aid (Scotland) (Extension of Proceedings (No. 2) Regulations 1971 be approved.—(Lord Drunialbyn.)
LORD DIAMOND: My Lords, all I rise to say is that I noted the mutates which has done the mutandis and I agree.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

INDUSTRIAL COURT (APPEALS) ORDER 1971
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR rose to move, That the Draft Industrial Court (Appeals) Order 1971 laid before the House on November 3 be approved. The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I rise to move the second Motion standing my name, and again I think that the Scottish Motion raises exactly the same points and that it may be for the convenience of the House if the two are dealt with together. Again I hope that this Order will give rise to no controversy. One of the few sections of the Industrial Relations Act which virtually excited none in this House was Section 114. The
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purpose of this Motion is to activate Section 114, except in one respect to which I will come in a moment.
Section 114 enables the Lord Chancellor, in respect of England and Wales, to transfer to the Industrial Court the appellate jurisdiction now exercised by the High Court in appeals from the industrial tribunals in so far as these relate to the relationship of employer and employed. The remaining appeals are to continue to be heard by the High Court as now—that is to say, those not dealt with in the Order, being those under the Industrial Training Act 1964, the Docks and Harbours Act 1966, and the Selective Employment Payments Act 1966. The appeals which are referred to in the Order are those arising under the Contracts of Employment Act 1963, the Redundancy Payments Act 1965, the Equal Pay Act 1970, and those under the Industrial Relations Act 1971, which relate to unfair dismissal proposals.
The jurisdiction for the industrial tribunals to hear cases of common law wrongful dismissal (that is, Section 113 of the Act) is not to be activated at the moment. It follows that it is not necessary to make provision for appeals, and I have not therefore activated Section 113 ("Appeals") in this Order. Industrial tribunals are already hearing complaints under the Contracts of Employment Act and the Redundancy Payments Act. Complaints under the Equal Pay Act have not yet been activated, so for some time there will be no appeals under this Act to add to the workload of the Industrial Court. Complaints regarding unfair dismissal under the Act of 1971 will begin early in the New Year when that part of the Act is commenced by order of my right honourable friend.
My Lords, the House will recall that appeals of this type are limited to questions of law. The Industrial Court is already fully constituted since, on my recommendation, Mr. Justice Donaldson has already been appointed to the Presidency of the Court in England and my right honourable friend has made a similar Scottish appointment; and nine lay members have been appointed on the recommendation of my right honourable friend the Secretary for Employment. There will of course be further appointments if the workload justifies it.
If I may now come from the general to the particular, the operative paragraph of the Order is Paragraph 3, the first two being purely formal. Paragraph 4 is designed to exclude overlapping of jurisdiction with the High Court. Paragraph 5 is transitional, and under Paragraph 5 current appeals, except those on the hearing of which the High Court has already acted, are transferred. As regards pending appeals transferred, the Industrial Court will have the same power over costs as the High Court at present enjoys; that is, to preserve existing rights. My Lords, I think that that really covers the clauses, and I therefore beg to move.
Moved, That the Draft Industrial Court (Appeals) Order 1971 laid before the House on November 3, be approved. —(The Lord Chancellor.)
6.32 p.m.
LORD DIAMOND: My Lords, I think that all that I need to do is to thank the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for having explained this Order so fully. Our own views as to those matters affecting this Order which are embodied in the Act itself were made very clear during the discussion of the Act, and there is no point in extending that argument on this occasion. Once the Act has been passed, it follows that the Government proceed to bring it into operation in this way; and having had the benefit of advice on the legal technicalities from my noble and learned friend Lord Gardiner, all I need do is again to thank the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for his explanation.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

INDUSTRIAL COURT (APPEALS) (SCOTLAND) ORDER 1971
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie I think it would be appropriate if I moved this Order formally. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Draft Industrial Court (Appeals) (Scotland) Order, 1971 laid before the House on November 3, be approved.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

METER READING: USE OF AUTOMATIC EQUIPMENT
LORD CROOK LORD CROOK asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether the Department of Trade and Industry will now publish the report by Messrs. W. S. Atkins & Partners of their study, made on behalf of the Department, as to domestic meter reading and the possible application of automatic equipment in the meter-reading function.
LORD DRUMALBYN: Subject to the agreement of our partners in this study the report will be published as soon as possible. These partners include the Post Office Corporation and the Livingston Development Corporation.

PROPERTY DAMAGE BY AIRCRAFT: COMPENSATION RIGHTS
LORD O'HAGAN LORD O'HAGAN asked Her Majesty's Government:
What remedies in law exist against damage to property from vibration caused by aircraft.
LORD DRUMALBYN: Section 40(2) of the Civil Aviation Act 1949 provides that where material loss or damage is caused to any person or property on land or water by a civil aircraft, damages shall be recoverable without proof of negligence from the owner of the aircraft. No remedies exist in law against any military aircraft flying by virtue of the Royal Prerogative for the purpose of the defence of the realm or of training or of maintaining the efficiency of any of the armed forces of the Crown. The Claims Commission of the Ministry of Defence will, however, pay compensation on an ex gratia basis if satisfied that the damage has been caused by a military aircraft.

WEATHER FORECASTS AND TEMPERATURE SCALES
LORD CLITHEROE LORD CLITHEROE asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether in view of the fact that Parliament has not made any decision on

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the use of Centigrade rather than Fahrenheit, they will arrange for the Meteorological Office to give in their weather bulletins the temperatures in Fahrenheit as well as in Centigrade, seeing that the latter is not meaningful to many people in the English speaking world.
LORD CARRINGTON: Since 1961 the Celsius scale, better known in this country as the Centigrade scale, has been the internationally agreed scale for the measurement of temperatures in meteorological work.
The Centigrade scale was first introduced into public weather forecasts issued by the Meteorological Office in 1962 and until recently the Fahrenheit equivalent was always given. The use and acceptance of the Centigrade scale is however increasing all the time. During 1970 recorded forecasts for the Automatic
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Telephone Weather Service and weather presentations of a number of independent television companies went over exclusively to degrees Centigrade. More recently the B.B.C., in consultation with the Meteorological Office, decided to omit certain of the Fahrenheit equivalents in their radio forecasts; the charts used for television forecasts also use only the Centigrade scale.
It seems likely that the Fahrenheit scale will eventually fall into disuse and it would be confusing to attempt to reverse this trend. There are obvious disadvantages in having two scales of temperature but the Meteorological Office will always give enquirers, on request, temperatures in the Fahrenheit scale as well as in the Centigrade scale.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before seven o'clock.