Sitting of 8 March 1971

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  TRADE AND INDUSTRY

    Rolls-Royce Ltd.
    Mr. Arthur Davidsonasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if, in view of the effects of the Rolls-Royce collapse on the employment situation in the area, he will now give full development area status to North-East Lancashire; and if he will make a statement.
    The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and President of the Board of Trade (Mr. John Davies): It is too early to assess the full impact of the Rolls-Royce situation on employment in North-East Lancashire, but we are keeping a close watch on developments.
    Mr. Davidson: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that answer. Nonetheless, will the Minister bear in mind that there is great concern in North-East Lancashire about the heavy redundancies which have resulted from the Rolls-Royce collapse? As North-East Lancashire has suffered over the years from a drift of younger people away from the area, will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether some greater inducement can be given to industry to come into North-East Lancashire and riot to go elsewhere?
    Mr. Davies: I am certainly pleased to keep this point very much in mind. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that recently I received a delegation from the area which made a full range of points to me which I am keeping very much in mind.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Will my right hon. Friend reconsider the full implementation of the Hunt Report and thus remove from North-East Lancashire the patchwork quilt effect of the various gradations of development status?
    Mr. Davies: While I appreciate my hon. and learned Friend's point on this matter, he will know that I am anxious not to be continually varying the weighting of regional incentives and like matters, because it upsets the planning of industry. However, I shall keep in mind my hon. and learned Friend's point.
    Mr. Benn: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what estimate he has

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    received from the Receiver of the number of redundancies which there would be in Rolls-Royce, first with the RB211 continuing and, secondly, without it?
    Mr. Davies: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be prepared to wait and to address that question to my right hon. Friend who will be making a statement later in the day and will be more up to date than I am.

    Bananas
    Mr. Moateasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will name the countries from which it is expected that the United Kingdom will import bananas in the next 12 months.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Anthony Grant): I expect the greater part of our imports to continue to come from Jamaica and the Windward Islands, with small quantities from a number of other suppliers.
    Mr. Moate: Will my hon. Friend confirm that it is the Government's policy to provide a long-term and assured market for bananas from both the Windward Islands and Jamaica? Will my hon. Friend also assure the House that any increase in supplies from the overseas associated territories of the Common Market will not be at the expense of Commonwealth growers?
    Mr. Grant: I can give my hon. Friend the assurance which we have given to the Windward Islands and Jamaica—namely, that we are aware of the vital importance to them of the banana industry and that we shall seek to protect their interests after our entry into the E.E.C.
    Mr. Wellbeloved: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the best way to protect the interests of the banana growers in Jamaica and the Windward Islands would be for the British Government to come to an agreement on negotiated quotas of bananas for entry into this country from our traditional suppliers?
    Mr. Grant: I do not necessarily agree. But what is of comfort is that only last week an agreement was reached between Fyffes and the Jamaica Banana Board which, I gather, was satisfactory to both parties. I think that it will be best to wait and see how that works out.
    Mr. Arthur Lewisasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is the existing tariff on bananas imported from countries in the Commonwealth.
    Mr. Anthony Grant: Bananas grown in the Commonwealth enter the United Kingdom duty-free.
    Mr. Lewis: Can the Minister say to what extent any possible known terms of entry to the Common Market will assist Commonwealth producers and home consumers, if and when we get in? Will prices go up or will they go down? What advantages will there be?
    Mr. Grant: That depends entirely on the course of the negotiations we are at the moment undertaking. We have given quite clear evidence that we understand the special difficulties of the banana producers. If the hon. Gentleman wants to ask any precise question about the negotiations, he should address it to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
    Mr. Arthur Lewisasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will give an estimate of the number of tons of bananas that will be imported from Central America in 1971.
    Mr. Anthony Grant: I prefer not to venture an estimate. Imports from this area are subject to the overall dollar quota, which is at present 4,000 tons.
    Mr. Lewis: I asked a precise question last time, Mr. Speaker, so perhaps I may ask a precise question now. When and if we get into the Common Market on any known terms, will the position be that producers in the Commonwealth and consumers at home will be worse off? Will the Minister answer that specific question?
    Mr. Grant: Of course I will, but the answer to the question is that we cannot possibly—
    Mr. Lewis: Why?
    Mr. Grant: As I assume the hon. Gentleman wants an answer, he might have the courtesy to wait until I have finished speaking. The answer is that we cannot be certain until the terms have been negotiated and are known. There is no need for the hon. Member to be critical, because I merely told him that

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    if he wanted details of the negotiations he must ask the appropriate Minister.
    Mr. Bodyasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what estimate he has made of the number of tons of bananas to be imported from the Windward Islands in 1971.
    Mr. Alfred Morrisasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what quantity of bananas are expected to be imported from Jamaica in 1971.
    Mr. Kilfedderasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry how many tons of bananas are likely to be imported from Jamaica in 1971.
    Mr. Anthony Grant: There are no restrictions on the import of bananas from the Windward Islands and Jamaica, and imports will no doubt repond to market demand.
    Mr. Body: There are no restrictions on imports, but is my hon Friend not aware that there is a great lack of confidence being generated in the Windward Islands, where they fear that if we enter the Common Market they will be given some associated status and that that will be considered enough? Is he not aware that they need far more than that if they are to maintain supplies to this country?
    Mr. Grant: I can only repeat that we understand very clearly the problems of the Windward Islands and their dependence upon this trade. Only last week Ministers from the Windward Islands came here and had full discussions with members of Her Majesty's Government, when the whole matter was reviewed and we promised to keep it very carefully under review.
    Mr. Alfred Morris: Is the Minister aware that a period of nine months for an agreement with Jamaica is much too short? Can he say why for this commodity we cannot have an agreement akin to the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement?
    Mr. Grant: When the hon. Gentleman says that the period is too short, the answer is that this was an agreement reached between Fyffes and the Jamaica Banana Board, which we understand was
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    perfectly satisfactory to both sides. There is also provision for renegotiation at the end of that time. We should see how the agreement works out before considering anything further.
    Mr. Kilfedder: My hon. Friend said that he was also answering my Question No. 47, but I did not hear him give the number of tons of bananas likely to be imported from Jamaica in 1971. Is my hon. Friend satisfied with the agreement reached between Jamaica and Fyffes? Surely there is no security as a result of an agreement which lasts for only nine months? Can my hon. Friend give an assurance that the Government will try to ensure that preference will be given to Commonwealth countries, such as Jamaica, over non-Commonwealth countries?
    Mr. Grant: On the latter point, I cannot go further than I have gone, which is to say that we shall be taking the special position of these countries into consideration in the negotiations which we are undertaking. As to the agreement, I should have thought that the people who had to be satisfied were not the Government but the parties to the agreement, and my information is that they are thoroughly satisfied.
    Mr. Whitlock: Since the price paid by the British housewife is anything from ten to twelve times that paid to the producer in Jamaica, will the Minister look at what happens between the point of production and the retail outlet to see what justifies this enormous mark-up?
    Mr. Grant: While I do not necessarily accept the hon. Gentleman's figures, we will certainly look into that question very carefully.
    Mr. Biffen: Is my hon. Friend aware that he has a record of well-founded scepticism about the Common Market, and will he, therefore, assure us that he will do his utmost to make representations that prove satisfactory to my hon. Friends?
    Mr. Grant: I can certainly assure my hon. Friend that we shall take into consideration the interests of those countries, but perhaps I should remind him that everyone is entitled to take different views of subjects over the course of years in the light of experience gained.

    Inclusive Tour Holidays
    Mr. Michael McNair-Wilsonasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he intends to repeal provision 1 of the International Air Transport Association regulations covering the minimum price of package holidays; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Anthony Grant: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to his Question on 24th February.—[Vol. 812, c. 172–3.]
    Mr. McNair-Wilson: I am sure that my hon. Friend knows that his answer will be welcomed by the travel industry. My hon. Friend will probably be aware that there is some public unease that there may be unscrupulous tour operators who will use the slackening of this provision to offer "phoney" bargains. May I ask my hon. Friend whether he envisages introducing legislation which will make bonding schemes obligatory on all tour operators and travel agents likely to introduce these holidays?
    Mr. Grant: I understand the anxiety which my hon. Friend has so rightly expressed. I do not wish to anticipate legislation in any way. I should emphasise that this is an experimental scheme which we have allowed for this forthcoming winter. We shall see how it works out, and my hon. Friend's anxieties will be borne in mind.
    Mr. Leslie Huckfield: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, despite the fact that this may be for an experimental period, we shall see some cut-throat competition in the holiday trade? Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House what proposals he has in mind to compel airline companies to give far more details about their financial operations? Will the Minister also tell us what proposals he has for registration by the Government of tour operators and airlines?
    Mr. Grant: Not at this stage. The points which the hon. Gentleman raised are very much in our consideration and we are having consultations with all interested parties, including the airlines, on this subject.

    Civil Aviation Bill
    Mr. Michael McNair-Wilsonasked the Secretary of State for Trade and
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    Industry when he intends to publish the Civil Aviation Bill.
    Mr. John Davies: My aim is to introduce the Bill as soon as possible so that both the proposed Civil Aviation Authority and British Airways Board can be operating in 1972.
    Mr. McNair-Wilson: Can my right hon. Friend give me any idea when we shall be debating the Bill? Does he envisage a White Paper before the debate?
    Mr. Davies: I do not envisage a White Paper before the Bill. I hope that the Bill will be introduced this Session, if at all possible, and if parliamentary business permits—when we shall, of course, have an opportunity fully to debate the matter.
    Mr. Mason: To what extent will the right hon. Gentleman depart from the principles which we laid down in our White Paper, especially when we intended to set up the Civil Aviation Authority and the Airways Board, as distinct from the holdings board which the Edwards Committee suggested?
    Mr. Davies: The right hon. Gentleman had better await the publication of the Bill. However, we shall, of course, broadly follow the recommendations of the Edwards Committee.

    New Zealand (Trade)
    Sir R. Russellasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is the value in£ sterling at 1969 prices of New Zealand's exports to and imports from the United Kingdom for the years 1938 and 1968–69.
    Mr. Anthony Grant: At current prices, exports£39 million and£177 million, imports£21 million and£119 million. No information at 1969 prices is available.
    Sir R. Russell: Do not these figures show a substantial increase over the years in our trade with New Zealand, as distinct from percentage figures, which are very misleading but which have often been quoted? Would my hon. Friend bear these real figures in mind instead of the percentages?
    Mr. Grant: There has, of course, been an increase, but since 1938 the pattern of trade has changed and the balance of

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    trade which New Zealand does with other countries—for example, Japan, Australia and other Eastern countries—has increased very much more than her trade with us.

    Mediator
    Mr. Molloyasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement regarding the efficiency of the Mediator traffic control system at Heathrow Airport.
    Mr. Barnesasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he is satisfied with the operation of the air traffic control system Mediator at Heathrow; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Leslie Huckfieldasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will conduct a review of the air traffic control and navigation system of Heathrow Airport.
    Mr. Anthony Grant: The Mediator system is concerned with the control of aircraft en route and the first part, introduced on 1st February, which involves the provision of services by the London Air Traffic Control Centre at West Drayton to aircraft in South England, is working effectively and will be progressively improved and developed. Its introduction has had comparatively minor consequential effects on the approach and aerodrome control services provided at Heathrow Airport and the position there is satisfactory.
    The operation of the air traffic control system at Heathrow is continuously under review and I see no necessity for any additional review at this time.
    Mr. Molloy: But is the hon. Gentleman aware that, notwithstanding that they are highly efficient and dedicated, the air control staff at Heathrow are gravely apprehensive about this system, and that there have been dangerous near-misses in the recent past, one of which would have had a disastrous effect on the Greenford area of my constituency? Should he not have a thorough investigation and take full cognisance of the apprehensions of the air control staff àpropos this whole issue?
    Mr. Grant: I entirely agree about the dedication and quality of the staff and I should like to set their minds at rest
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    about the equipment which they are operating. We shall give this the highest possible priority, of course. I should make it clear that the system which was introduced is designed in the interests of safety and will in our view improve the safety of aircraft en route because of the better radar system which is applied and the better method of examination of the operatives.
    Mr. Rankin: On a point of order. I have two Questions on this topic. Could the Minister say why he did not take my Questions, with these?
    Mr. Grant—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I would again remind hon. Members that points of order are deprecated during Question Time.
    Mr. Huckfield: Is the Minister aware that, despite what he said, the air traffic control staff and the pilots do not like it, that it is ten years out of date, that half of the computer system is not there, and that foreign air traffic controllers have already started to retaliate? Will he not now admit that the whole of the Linesman-Mediator system is fast becoming a monumental testament to the "cock-up" theory of government?
    Mr. Grant: I do not share those views nor do I agree with the extravagant language in which they were expressed. It is grossly exaggerating to make a remark like that. I repeat that this system will improve the safety of aircraft and of people concerned therewith. I would also point out that this piece of equipment will be available very soon and that the existing one, the intermediate one, improves the system so far as it can at the moment.
    Mr. Emery: Would my hon. Friend deal with the question of near misses, which is of considerable importance to the minds of the travelling public? As I understand it, allegations about the number of near misses since the introduction of this equipment are not at all similar to the facts.
    Mr. Grant: It would be wrong of me or anyone to suggest that the near misses, if they have taken place, are due to this system. I do not accept that for one moment. Of course, the Government will consider this very carefully.
    Mr. Mason: But the Minister knows, as his right hon. Friend has told me in a written reply, that there have been three near misses since Mediator was established and in the area which it covers. What has been responsible? Has Mediator, because of its introduction in this area, been responsible for these three near misses? Secondly, what has the Minister said to those who have expressed fears—namely, B.A.L.P.A., the National Guild of Air Traffic Controllers and the Institution of Professional Civil Servants—to allay their fears?
    Mr. Grant: I do not accept at this stage that the Mediator system was responsible for the near misses which have taken place. If the hon. Gentleman would like to put down a Question on the subject, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Trade will no doubt give him an answer. But I repeat that the Mediator system which has been introduced is designed to create a safer system and is an improvement on the situation which prevailed before.
    Mr. Mason: What has the Minister said to those three bodies primarily involved and affected to allay their fears about the future of this system?
    Mr. Grant: I have had no consultation myself with them at all—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—that is, me personally. I have had no consultations. But what I am saying is that if the right hon. Gentleman cares to put down a Question, I will see that it is answered.

    Developing Countries (Generalised Preferences)
    Mr. Blakerasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement about the progress of discussions in the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development on the grant of generalised preferences by advanced countries to developing countries.
    Mr. John Davies: I have nothing to add to the reply to the hon. Member for Farnworth (Mr. Roper) and the right hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) on 8th February.—[Vol. 811, c. 29–30.]
    Mr. Blaker: May I draw to my right hon. Friend's attention the position of Hong Kong in these negotiations? The
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    House has already been informed that the E.E.C. is prepared to accept Hong Kong as a beneficiary country. What is the position of the United States and Japan? Can my right hon. Friend report any progress on that front?
    Mr. Davies: I understand that Japan also expects to be able to include Hong Kong in some certain special arrangements which it wishes to make, but nonetheless to include it in its own arrangements. I have no further news about the United States, but I am very hopeful that it, too, will find it possible to include the colony in its arrangements.
    Sir G. de Freitas: Will the right hon. Gentleman remember that, as long ago as November, I was told in the House that the Government would introduce legislation on generalised preference along the lines of the E.E.C.? Can he tell me when that is likely to be?
    Mr. Davies: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, it is the Government's intention, along with other Governments concerned, to bring in legislation this year. That remains the Government's intention, in order to fulfil their general undertakings to make these arrangements effective before the year's end. But I cannot be more specific than that.

    Regional Policy
    Mr. Robert Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will present a White Paper outlining the policies he intends to pursue in development areas and the total expenditure likely to be incurred in the next financial year.
    Mr. John Davies: No, Sir. I would refer the hon. Member to the reply by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment to the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Varley) on 22nd February. Estimates of expenditure in 1971–72 on the regional assistance for which my Department is responsible will be presented to Parliament in due course.—[Vol. 812, c. 41–2.]
    Mr. Hughes: Will the right hon. Gentleman not understand that such equivocal answers are causing grave lack of confidence in the development areas, that the lack of precise information is retarding development in areas like mine,

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    Aberdeen, and that this must cease so that we know where we are going?
    Mr. Davies: No, I cannot accept that. The information available to people in the country and in the House is considerable, extensive and precise.
    Mr. Rost: In view of the redundancies announced a few minutes ago by Rolls-Royce amounting to more than 43,000, most of which will fall in Derbyshire, will my right hon. Friend now consider including the Derby area in a development area?
    Mr. Davies: I have the position of Derby under consideration. As my hon. Friend will appreciate, the situation is not at all final and determined, but he may rest assured that Derby is a matter of concentrated attention by my colleagues and myself.
    Mr. Dell: Will the Secretary of State confirm that, as has been said by the Minister of State at the Treasury, no estimate of financial expenditure in the development area in the new system can be made? Will he therefore repudiate the statement made by his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State in the Northern Region debate that the cash flow into that development area will be broadly the same as it would have been under the previous system?
    Mr. Davies: No. I believe that my hon. Friend was quite right to say what he did. The fact is, as the right hon. Gentleman knows only too well, that it is virtually impossible to be absolute and precise on this matter because we are dealing with differential developments of industry. It is not possible to be exact. My hon. Friend knows that as well as the right hon. Gentleman. What my hon. Friend said was that the cash effect was in broad terms the same. That is correct.
    Mr. David Reedasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry when he expects to publish a White Paper setting out the Government's plans for regional development.
    Mr. Urwinasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry when he expects to complete his review of regional policy.
    Mr. Varleyasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he plans to announce further changes in the status of development areas or intermediate areas similar to the upgrading of West Central Scotland in advance of the completion of his review of regional policy.
    Mr. John Davies: The Government's decisions on the review of regional policy were announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 18th February. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment told the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Varley) on 22nd February, no further changes in regional industrial policy are planned at present.
    Mr. Reed: Will the Secretary of State at least accept that there is some degree of apprehension in the development areas about possible effects of the Government's policy and that this is partly due to the way in which the policies have been announced in dribs and drabs, and then largely as a result of Opposition censure Motions? If the right hon. Gentleman has any faith in the Government's regional development policy, does he accept that a White Paper would clarify the situation and enable hon. Members to compare the Government's policies with those of the previous Government?
    Mr. Davies: No; I do not think that the publication of a White Paper is needed. The matter is already abundantly clear. The amount of work that my Department is engaged in at the moment makes it very clear to me that there are no doubts about it in the development areas. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman has asked me to publish a White Paper to clarify the policy. I say that it does not need clarification. The hon. Gentleman says that there is some anxiety about present policies. I join him and the development areas in being concerned about what is undoubtedly a worrying situation in investment, but the hon. Gentleman would be wrong to imagine that this is entirely a question of differentials between individual areas. This is not the question. The underlying problem is one of the general economic situation, which is largely geared to an excessive degree of inflation.
    Mr. Urwin: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the statement he

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    has just made will have a shattering effect throughout the whole of the development areas? It it an absolute disgrace. Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that the powerful stimulus and encouragement given to industrialists by the previous Government to relocate in development areas have now been almost entirely dissipated as a result of the right hon. Gentleman's laissez faire attitude and, latterly, the ridiculous and disgraceful policies he has introduced? As only one I.D.C. was granted in the Northern Region in January, following a serious decline in the previous two quarters, will he give an assurance that there will be matching of investment by the Government with that achieved by a Labour Government over the last four or five years?
    Mr. Davies: The record of the past Government in terms of industrial development nation-wide was far from satisfactory. It is the present Government's firm and settled intention, first, to contain the menace of inflation and thereafter to encourage a degree of investment which will undoubtedly redound to our credit.
    Mr. Varley: Is the Secretary of State aware that when he was appointed to his post he gave the impression to the House last November that he would have a coherent review of regional policy, instead of which we have had panic measures, complete muddle and complete sham? Does the right hon. Gentleman now realise that there is a complete lack of confidence in the weaker regions? Will he now reconsider this matter and do something about it?
    Mr. Davies: The impression that is created on me is one of a determined effort by the other side of the House to create a sense of panic, not that a state of panic is widespread in the country. On the contrary, the country believes that we are moving into an area of more settled conditions.
    Miss Quennell: Have the Government any intention of creating a development area in the South of England?
    Mr. Davies: I repeat that we have no proposals at present for changes in the nature of the effects of the treatment given to development areas at the present time.
    Mr. James Johnson: In view of the worsening conditions on North Humber-
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    side, why does not the Secretary of State come there on his own two feet instead of talking in the Chamber; and then, having seen our local conditions, why does he not help us, which is what we badly need?
    Mr. Davies: I look forward to being in the hon. Gentleman's area very shortly now and I hope to have the opportunity of using my own two feet for that purpose.
    Mr. Urwin: On a point of order. In view of the wholly unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Development Areas (Employment)
    Mr. David Watkinsasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what consultations he is having with managements and trade unions on employment opportunities in development areas.
    Mr. John Davies: I and the other Ministers in my Department have met representatives of trade unions and management on a number of occasions when discussions have taken place about steps to promote the growth of employment in the development areas. My Department will continue to keep in very close touch with both sides of industry.
    Mr. Watkins: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that every coal mine which remains open in the development areas is now short of labour and that these areas also have record numbers of unemployed? Does he expect his consultations to be productive in resolving that situation?
    Mr. Davies: My fellow Ministers and I have close contacts with both the National Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers. We keep clearly in mind the problems of the areas concerned and the degree to which the industry can resolve some of them, but the terms of the Question overstate considerably the potential of these arrangements.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Could the right hon. Gentleman at least make a statement about the future of the shipbuilding and ship-repair industry since this has direct relevance to the whole question of the future rôle of the development areas?
    Mr. Davies: I hope shortly to introduce a shipbuilding Bill. At that time I shall have an opportunity of ranging fairly widely in regard to this industry and there can be a widespread debate on the subject.
    Mr. Benn: Has the right hon. Gentleman any idea how much the Treasury reckons it will save by the new development area policy which is being pursued, so that we may set it against his earlier Answer that he could not estimate what change in cash flow there would be in those areas?
    Mr. Davies: Here again the right hon. Gentleman is seeking precision when he knows that none is possible. The truth is that there are ebbs and flows in this matter. In the initial phase it is probable that application of the policy will put more money into the regions than less. Later the opposite may be the case.
    Mr. McBrideasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what growth he expects in the engineering industry in development areas, in particular in Wales, as a result of the Government's regional policies.
    Mr. Anthony Grant: The rate of expansion of the engineering industry in the development areas will depend largely on national economic growth. The Government's regional policy instruments are designed to promote the growth of all manufacturing industry in the development areas, including the Welsh development area.
    Mr. McBride: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his Answer will be received with dismay in Wales where his policy shows a lamentable lack of success? Is he also aware that the engineering and other allied industries in Wales are contracting, that closures are occurring with monotonous rapidity and that large and small engineering firms in Wales are suffering from the bankrupting policies being pursued by this inept and hopeless Government?
    Mr. Grant: I am aware of those matters. The hon. Gentleman should be aware that the misfortunes from which, I recognise, the Welsh are suffering have occurred as a result of the economic policies of the inept and hopeless Labour Government. Of course we recognise the
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    difficulties in Wales, but it is far too early to say that the policies proposed by the Government will not be successful. The matter takes time to work out. I ask the hon. Gentleman not to get too depressed, nor to talk his own constituency into depression.
    Mr. Leadbitter: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the rate of redundancies is gaining momentum, that there is increasing unemployment in the development areas, with particular concern in the engineering industry, that trade unionists and employers alike have expressed their views on this matter to the Government, that the North-Eastern Development Council in the northern area has also expressed concern, and that in development areas industrial inquiries have run down to a trickle? Does the situation not worry the Government?
    Mr. Grant: Of course it worries the Government. It is precisely for that reason that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a statement on 18th February making the hon. Gentleman's area a special development area. No doubt it has not escaped his attention that many people in his area have suggested that this is precisely the sort of shot in the arm which they require.
    Mr. Alan Williams: Would the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that it is as important that he should lay down clear policy guide lines as it is that he should be contemplating realistic expenditure? Will he today give a categoric assurance that his Department will not agree to the construction of any new, large integrated steel plant other than in one of the development areas?
    Mr. Grant: No. I will certainly not give any such categoric assurance.

    European Economic Community
    Mr. Deakinsasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what representations he has made to the European Economic Community about its protectionist agricultural trading policy.
    Mr. Anthony Grant: None, Sir.
    Mr. Deakins: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the common agricultural policy has been one of the principal causes of the growth of protectionism in world trade and that our entry will do

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    nothing to solve that problem—the more so as we have accepted an unsatisfactory common agricultural policy as the price of entry and will have no chance of changing it once we have gone in?
    Mr. Grant: No. I should make clear that the arrangements of the Community, including its common agricultural policy, have been examined in G.A.T.T. and also that, although we have indicated that as members of the Community we should accept the common agricultural policy, we should have our own voice in determining what shape that policy should take in future years.
    Mr. Blaker: Is it not a fact that after the Kennedy Round reductions next year, the average level of tariffs in the Community will be considerably lower than those of the United States or of this country?
    Mr. Grant: My hon. Friend, with his usual skill and clarity, is absolutely right.

    Decimalisation
    Mr. Molloyasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on the initial effects of decimalisation on matters for which his Department is responsible.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Nicholas Ridley): Yes, Sir. It went very well.
    Mr. Molloy: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he is probably the only person in the country who agrees with that reply? Is he further aware that the general scheme in which five digits were to be rounded up and five rounded down ended up with ten being rounded up, and that when the public complained to shopkeepers, the shopkeepers, after acknowledging that there had been an unjustified rise, blamed the wholesalers? Is not the acid test the fact that old-age pensioners are finding it much more difficult to make ends meet? Would he be prepared to have discussions with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services to give an interim award to old-age pensioners and to examine the whole question of prices with some sincerity—in spite of the fact that we are well aware how touchy the Government are about dealing with prices?
    Mr. Ridley: My Department has received no complaints relating to decimalisation on those matters for which we are responsible. That entirely belies the waffle just put out by the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. John Hall: Could my hon. Friend confirm—apart from the question of decimalisation—that we shall not see the introduction of metrication without the consent of the House?
    Mr. Ridley: My hon. Friend knows that the Government will publish a White Paper, and we hope to take the House along with us in the policy outlined in that White Paper.
    Mr. Lipton: Could the hon. Gentleman say when the new half-penny will be taken out of circulation, since most people are fed up with it already?
    Mr. Ridley: That is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

    Scottish Economic Planning Board
    Mr. Douglasasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will make a statement on his Department's relationship with the Scottish Economic Planning Board.
    Mr. John Davies: Senior officials of my Office for Scotland represent my Department on the Scottish Economic Planning Board and play a full part in its work.
    Mr. Douglas: Will not the Secretary of State agree that a more truthful and accurate answer would be that the relationship is bad? Therefore, would he like to tell the House how his Department managed to convince, in particular, the Chairman of the Scottish Economic Planning Board about changes in I.D.C. policy which would be extremely detrimental to Scotland? Is he aware that the chairman is on record as indicating that such a policy would be harmful to Scotland if pursued by any Administration? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that what we are seeing now is an illustration of policies which undermine regional development, particularly in Scotland?
    Mr. Davies: I would not, of course, assent to the suggestion that these relationships are bad, and I think that the hon. Gentleman is grossly exaggerating the changes made in I.D.C. policy. The nature of the small changes made is entirely to facilitate administration and is not to change the policy of I.D.C. grants at all.

    Motor Vehicles (Imports from Japan)
    Mr. Iremongerasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry how many motor vehicles, four-wheeled and two-wheeled, respectively, have been imported from Japan in the last five years.
    Mr. Ridley: There were 15,000 passenger cars and 233,000 motor cycles imported in the five years 1966 to 1970; imports of commercial motor vehicles were negligible.
    Mr. Iremonger: Will the Government make an inquiry into the structural soundness and safety of Japanese cars?
    Mr. Ridley: I do not think that that is for the Government to do—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—but if my hon. Friend would like to write to me about what he has in mind, I will certainly consider it.
    Mr. Allason: Has my hon. Friend noticed the tax bias that has grown up in the last five years in favour of light Japanese motor cycles as opposed to heavy British motor cycles?
    Mr. Ridley: That is a question for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer but, again, I will certainly look into it.
    Mr. Dell: Can the Minister say why the Government have no responsibility in respect of the safety of cars? This is a most important matter, and one in which the Government should certainly interest themselves.
    Mr. Ridley: What my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Ire-monger) referred to was quality, not safety.
    Hon. Members: No.

    Charter Flights
    Mr. Leslie Huckfieldasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will make a statement about
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    his policy on the rules governing charter flights by affinity and inclusive tour groups.
    Mr. Anthony Grant: Any changes in the rules must take account of the different interests of holiday and business travellers, of the concern of British airlines to get a fair share of the traffic, and of the need to keep in line with other countries.
    Mr. Huckfield: I thank the Minister for that reply. Is he aware that one no longer has to go through the pretence of attending six boring meetings of the Trowbridge and District Cage Bird Society or the Toronto Handshake Club, because one can can buy charter flight tickets over the counter? Will he not, therefore, agree to scrap all these stupid rules and regulations, or at least accede to the proposals being put forward by the American Civil Aeronautics Board whereby any group of people can buy a charter?
    Mr. Grant: I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman that the present rules for affinity group charter flights are in many ways unsatisfactory, and I should certainly like to see something much better. The Civil Aeronautics Board has made very important and interesting proposals, and we are examining them urgently.
    Mr. Kenneth Lewis: When my hon. Friend considers this matter will he be careful not to abolish these rules because, in so far as they apply to affinity groups, they are of assistance to aviation generally? Is my hon. Friend aware that there is in London a club called the Rutland Cricket Club which has a full fictitious fixture list, in the middle of which there are flights to Nairobi and other places? As far as I can judge, it is not necessary to be able to play cricket to secure an advantage ticket by booking with this organisation. There are too many such organisations which are selling tickets openly on the public market.
    Mr. Grant: I am fascinated to learn what goes on in the cricketing world in London. I am sure that this state of affairs could be improved if my hon. Friend got himself elected non-playing captain. I understand the need to take a balanced approach to this subject. We must recognise the need to preserve the interests of the airlines and the interests of passengers who want scheduled flights

    23
    as well as those who want chartered flights. This is why we are not rushing into the matter but are examining very carefully the proposals to which the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Leslie Huckfield) referred to see whether this unsatisfactory state of affairs can be improved.
    Mr. Mason: Having examined what the United States Civil Aeronautics Board has done, could not the Minister be more specific and tell the House what he has in mind?
    Mr. Grant: It would be very unwise of me to reveal anything in advance of detailed consideration.

    Inter-Continental Pharmaceuticals (Bletchley) Ltd.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cookeasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he has considered the report of the inspectors appointed to investigate the affairs of Inter-Continental Pharmaceuticals (Bletchley) Limited.
    Mr. Ridley: The report has been considered, but I have concluded that it is not of sufficient public importance to justify publication.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Is my hon. Friend aware that his predecessor in office—Mrs. Dunwoody—gave me exactly the same answer eleven months ago—that the report was being considered and that action would be taken speedily? What has happened in the last eleven months?
    Mr. Ridley: The creditors will in due course receive knowledge of the financial state of this company from the Official Receiver, who is the liquidator. We have concluded that there are no matters of public interest arising from his report and it would not, therefore, be worth the cost of public funds to publish it.

    Trade Descriptions Act, 1968 (Prosecutions)
    Mr. Whitlockasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry in what circumstances he will use his powers to initiate prosecutions under the Trade Descriptions Act, 1968.
    Mr. Ridley: Only very exceptionally, given the resolution and effectiveness with which local weights and measures authorities are enforcing the Act.
    Mr. Whitlock: In view of the evidence which I and other hon. Members have given to the hon. Gentleman of the mounting anger of many people who have made what is for them the largest investment of the year on a holiday abroad in response to misleading advertisements in glossy brochures, will the hon. Gentleman now take action himself, bearing in mind that comparatively few prosecutions are made by local weights and measures inspectors? In view of the warnings given to him by the hon. Member for Walthamstow, East (Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson) about future cut-throat competition in this industry, will the hon. Gentleman look at the matter closely to see whether the Trade Descriptions Act needs toughening and whether it is necessary to introduce the requirement of registration for tour operators and travel agents?
    Mr. Ridley: Local weights and measures authorities have prosecuted in about 20 cases, 75 per cent. of which have been successful, and fines of up to£6,000 have been levied on convicted operators. I have no evidence to suggest that the Department, if it undertook the rôle of prosecutor, would have prosecuted in so many cases as that, let alone more cases than that.

    Laundries (Increased Charges)
    Mr. Kaufmanasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry in view of recent increases in charges by laundries, whether he will introduce legislation in this session to control such charges.
    Mr. Ridley: No, Sir.
    Mr. Kaufman: In view of the recent 44 per cent. price increase in laundry charges by one of the country's largest chains of laundries and dry cleaners, is it not time the Government stopped bleating about claims for increased wages and did something about price increases, which are not claimed but imposed unilaterally?
    Mr. Ridley: The hon. Gentleman may remember that the National Board for Prices and Incomes investigated this industry and came to the conclusion that prices were too low to provide a margin for sufficient research and investment into plant for the future. I have no wish to interfere with the proper operation of the profit motive in this respect.

    Ship-Repairing Industry (Wales)
    Mr. McBrideasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry when he expects to publish his proposals to assist the ship-repairing industry in Wales.
    Mr. Ridley: We expect to make a statement soon on proposals from the Ship Building and Ship Repairing Council concerning the ship-repairing industry.
    Mr. McBride: Is the Minister aware that when I asked the assistance of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry he sheltered behind the fact that a receiver had been appointed in this company, in spite of the fact that I offered to suit my convenience to his and meet him in London, Cardiff or Swansea? Will wet and dry dock repair facilities be retained in the Bristol Channel? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the continuity of the Prince of Wales Dry Dock Co. Ltd. as a viable entity is essential to the Swansea area for the extensive shipping traffic in the Bristol Channel? Finally, will the hon. Gentleman, in consultation with his right hon. Friend, send fleet auxiliaries and other ships there? To do so could well influence the decision to retain dock repair facilities.
    Mr. Ridley: My right hon. Friend will be making a statement about policy in this area shortly. The company to which the hon. Gentleman refers is in the hands of a receiver and, therefore, I cannot comment upon it. I would only say that it will be up to this industry to attract the business which it needs to earn its living in the future.

    Northern Region (Official Visits)
    Mr. Urwinasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry how many official visits have been made to the Northern Region by his Departmental Ministers since 18th June, and for what purpose such visits were made.
    Mr. John Davies: As the information is lengthy, I will, with permission, circulate it is the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Urwin: May I express the hope that the answer does not include a reference to any Minister having visited the constituency of Houghton-le-Spring? Is
    26
    the Minister aware that the attitude of Ministers towards the provision of employment opportunities in the Northern Region is matched only by the paucity of sense in the application of a regional policy? Is he aware that I was told last week in answer to a Question that two further advance factories would be allocated to my constituency when those which are vacant are let, that there is not a single advance factory in the whole of the constituency vacant at this time, and that there has not been for some months? Will not the Minister acquaint himself with the problems in the Northern Region and do something about them?
    Mr. Davies: I had the opportunity to visit the Northern Region as recently as last month, and I had an opportunity to discuss these matters with a number of people and organisations while I was there.
    Following is the information:
    Engagements undertaken by Ministers of the Department of Trade and Industry and of its predecessor Departments were as follows:—
    Mr. Geoffrey Rippon 26th June, 1970—Visit to Newcastle; meeting with Lord Mayor and meeting with Chairman of North East Development Council; visit to the Deuartment's Newcastle Office.
    Sir John Eden 4th-5th August, 1970—Visit to Newcastle for meeting with Regional Chairman and officials of the National Coal Board; visit to Horden Colliery and the government training centre at Meadow-field; meeting with Brandon & Byshottles Urban District Council; mineworkers unions representatives and miners.
    Mr. Anthony Grant 14th-15th September, 1970—Visit to firms at Newcastle, Gates-head and Tees-side to discuss export matters.
    Mr. Nicholas Ridley 12th-13th October, 1970—Opening of factories in Gateshead and Washington; meeting with Planning Committees of Northumberland and Durham County Councils and members of Sunderland Corporation.
    Mr. Nicholas Ridley 12th-13th November, 1970—Visit to open factory at Washington; meeting with Chairman and members of Northern Gas Board. Visits to British Ship Research Association; lecture at Newcastle Polytechnic; visit to factory and shipyard on Tyneside.
    Sir John Eden 11 th January, 1971—Visit to shipyards at Sunderland; meeting with the T.U.C. Northern Regional Advisory Committee.
    Mr. John Davies 19th February, 1971—Visit to Tees-side firms; address to Teesside Chamber of Commerce; informal meeting with acting chairman of the Northern Economic Planning Council.

    European Free Trade Association
    Mr. Alfred Morrisasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what is the approximate percentage of the world's population that lives within the European Free Trade Association countries and the percentage of world trade which is accounted for by the European Free Trade Association.
    Mr. Anthony Grant: Three per cent. and 16 per cent., respectively, in 1969.
    Mr. Morris: Will the hon. Gentleman compare these figures with the comparable figures for the European Economic Community? Is he aware that if he does so, he will come back to the well-justified scepticism which was referred to by his hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen)?
    Mr. Grant: I do not think that that conclusion can be drawn at all. The E.E.C. coutries accounted for five per cent. of the world's population and 27 per cent. of world imports.

    Upper Clyde Shipbuilders Ltd.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what reduction in the amount owed by Upper Clyde Shipbuilders to Her Majesty's Government will result from the writing-down of the capital of this company to which he has agreed.
    Mr. John Davies: Details of the inended capital reconstruction have not yet been worked out.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Can my right hon. Friend say whether, when the former Government advanced this money, proper security was obtained for it, and whether my right hon. Friend, if he sees fit to advance any further sums, will follow the advice of the Public Accounts Committee and obtain proper security?
    Mr. Davies: I have no intention whatever of advancing further sums to Upper Clyde Shipbuilders. As to the former Administration, it is interesting to note that under a variety of guises they managed to put over£20 million into the hands of that organisation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."] I am not reading. [HON. MEMBERS: "The right hon. Gentleman is reading."]
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I have heard all these shouts of "Reading". It is well known that Ministers are entitled to read their answers.
    Mr. Davies: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In fact the former Administration—
    Dame Patricia Horsnby-Smith: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It was quite impossible for hon. Members on this side of the House to hear my right hon. Friend's reply. May we have your permission to hear it again?
    Mr. Speaker: Yes.
    Mr. Davies: I was saying that the present Administration have no intention of advancing further money to Upper Clyde Shipbuilders. The last Administration in a variety of guises advanced sums in excess of£20 million, virtually all of which have been lost.
    Mr. Millan: As it is nearly four weeks since we had the last statement in the House, and as the continued success and survival of U.C.S. depends upon capital reconstruction, can the right hon. Gentleman say when we shall have details, because the delay is very worrying?
    Mr. Davies: I am pressing the company to put forward its proposals. The hon. Gentleman realises, of course, that it is for the company to make proposals to the Government, and not vice versa, in this case. I am pressing the company and I hope, as the hon. Gentleman does, to get this matter well and quickly settled.

    Government-Held Assets (Sale)
    Mr. Douglasasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will give details of the personnel in his Department who assist him in determining the timing of sales of Government-held assets and/or securities in the private and public sectors.
    Mr. John Davies: I use Departmental and outside professional advice as circumstances require.
    Mr. Douglas: The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that what is needed as a firm statement of the criteria which are in use in his Department for the valuation of shares and assets. Therefore, is he not aware that we need to know not only the quality and qualifications of the personnel in his Department,

    29
    but how the House may question those outside the Department?
    Mr. Davies: The hon. Gentleman fails to realise what a great variety of investments there is and the very different circumstances in which they were made, so that the establishment of universal criteria would be quite useless. This applies equally in the case of advisers. One would need different advisers for different classes of problem. But I assure the hon. Gentleman that there will be a full opportunity to put questions to my colleagues and myself when the time arises.

    National Computing Centre
    Mr. Huntasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he will increase the grant-in-aid paid to the National Computing Centre in order to enable it to carry out an inquiry into the methods of recruitment and training used by private computer programming schools and similar commercial establishments in the computer field.
    Mr. Ridley: No, Sir. The National Computing Centre is already carrying out work on aptitude testing for trainee programmer selection and developing course material for programmer training and will be making the results available for training establishments in both the public and private sector to take up.
    Mr. Hunt: Is the Minister aware that his reply is somewhat disappointing? Is the inquiry into aptitude tests to which he refers aimed at the private programming schools? Is he aware that hundreds of people are being hoodwinked every week into paying large sums of money for courses which start with a totally inadequate aptitude test and end with a totally worthless certificate?
    Mr. Ridley: I am ready to consider any specific complaints which my hon. Friend may like to bring to my notice. It might be valuable if he paid a visit to the National Computing Centre to discuss these matters in detail with the director.
    Mr. Leslie Huckfield: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can give a guarantee that we shall have a National Computing Centre to carry out the inquiry?
    Hon. Members: Answer.

    Northern Development Area
    Mr. David Reedasked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry how many firms contemplating new projects in the Northern Development Area have now told him they are reconsidering their plans following the change in investment incentives announced in October, 1970.
    Mr. Anthony Grant: Twelve, but only one small firm has told us that it is postponing its project. The number of firms who notify us that they are reconsidering plans is, however, of little significance as I expect firms at all times to keep their plans under review.
    Mr. Reed: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the argument which he has given me in answer to similar questions during the last six months no longer holds water, and that firms have now had time fully to review their investment plans for the development areas? Could he say when the present Government will be prepared to accept that it is the result of their policies alone which is causing the dearth of industrial inquiries in the Northern Region at this time?
    Mr. Grant: The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong in his rather wild preliminary. In fact, only one Question has been asked, and that was on 18th January. The answer that I give now is exactly the same as it was before. Firms are always reviewing their position. They did so under the previous Administration. One of the factors which they may have to take into consideration is that of wage inflation.
    Mr. Bob Brown: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Tory leader of Newcastle City Council and chairman of the North-East Development Council has already condemned as planning measures the Department's recent announcements? In view of the abysmal ignorance revealed by his right hon. Friend at the Dispatch Box today, and notwithstanding the answer to Question No. 29, may I suggest that the Minister hires a mini-coach so that all Ministers may make a tour of the development areas?
    Mr. Grant: On the contrary, it emerged clearly from the debate on the Northern Region the other week—in which, if I may say so, the Opposition were routed—that Alderman Gray, if that

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    is the gentleman to whom the hon. Member refers, welcomed the Government's new measures in the Northern Region.

ROLLS-ROYCE
The Minister of Aviation Supply (Mr. Frederick Corfield): The House will wish to have an account of recent developments with respect to Rolls-Royce.
Last week the Government had lengthy discussions with Mr. Haughton and his colleagues about the basis for a new RB211 contract.
Against the background of widely differing estimates on the part of Her Majesty's Government and the Lockheed Aircraft Corporation of the losses likely to arise from continuing the programme, the Government offered Mr. Haughton the opportunity of backing his own judgment.
The Government proposed to contribute the£60 million estimated by Mr. Haughton to be sufficient to cover future development costs, in addition to the money already spent. Development costs beyond that would be borne by Lockheed; on its judgment, there would not be any. The mean price increase for each engine would not exceed£150,000—a figure which we feel could still be well below cost, and one which, as was agreed with Mr. Haughton, was negotiable. Any excess or saving in production cost would be shared between Rolls-Royce and Lockheed. Profits from the sale of spares would be shared. Lockheed thought these would be much greater than the Government's figures, so again Lockheed was called on to back its own judgment. In return, delivery penalties under the old contract would be formally waived by both Lockheed and the airlines. Under new arrangements, there would be no penalty for six months' delay, and only light penalties for a further three months.
Helpful cash flow arrangements were to be negotiated by Lockheed with American bankers. The management of the new project could be conducted as a joint Rolls-Royce/Lockheed venture in whatever form seemed most effective. Her Majesty's Government would give, through Rolls-Royce, a warranty to provide servicing and spares support during the life of the engine. It would be for Lockheed to arrange a satisfactory
32
warranty to recompense Her Majesty's Government for all the money invested under this new agreement if the TriStar programme were abandoned.
Mr. Haughton undertook to present these proposals to the airlines and the banks, and I believe that he has done so. I have had no report of how the proposals have been received by them.
I should add that I understand that the receiver has this afternoon informed the trade unions concerned of his decision to make redundant some 4,000 employees of Rolls-Royce Ltd., mainly at establishments in the Derby area and in Scotland. The redundancies are in addition to any which may arise if the RB211 project does not proceed.
Meanwhile, within the scope of the Rolls-Royce (Purchase) Act, negotiations are continuing with the receiver in respect to the acquisition by Her Majesty's Government of certain assets of the Rolls-Royce Company Ltd. Twenty million pounds has already been advanced to the receiver from the Contingencies Fund. A Supplementary Estimate will be laid later this week covering this sum and likely further payments on account to be made to the receiver in the current financial year.
I shall continue to keep the House regularly informed as the situation develops.
Mr. Benn: The right hon. Gentleman will realise that he has told the House nothing that we have not been able to read in the Press or on the tape, and we are further handicapped in that the negotiations are being conducted by a Minister not accountable to the House. However may I put to him these questions?
First, how do the Government expect Lockheed to manage this without actually being in charge of Rolls-Royce? Second, does the guarantee contemplated involve the American Government? Third, are the Government's proposals negotiable or are they the last word of the Government in this matter?
Next, will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that all the Government are doing, in fact, is offering a further£18 million above the figure mentioned in November? Finally, will he say whether the Government or the receiver are now in charge of Rolls-Royce, and how many

33
further redundancies would be contemplated if the RB211 programme were to fail?
Mr. Corfield: As regards the Press reports, I am sure the House will appreciate that it was necessary to give guidance to the Press simultaneously with Mr. Haughton's Press conference in the United States, and this meant postponing it, because of the difference in time, to late on Friday afternoon.
With regard to the arrangements for Lockheed's participation, there are, as the House will know, various patterns for this—such as Panavia—and these are the sort of systems which we had in mind; but this particular aspect did not appear to worry Mr. Haughton at all.
As regards the warranty, this really is a matter for negotiation between Mr. Haughton and the United States Government or the United States banks, as the case may be. We have made abundantly clear that these proposals are negotiable and that we are also open to counter-bids not necessarily connected with this particular type of proposition.
It is not true that the Government have merely put up another£18 million, because there are likely to be very substantial losses on the production even under the scheme suggested.
As regards the future, I am sure the House recognises that the Receiver is in charge but that he does make these decisions in regard to redundancies in consultation with the board of Rolls-Royce, the executives of which represent continuity from the old board which had already been working on the problem of over-staffing.
Mr. Rost: We all recognise the Government's skilful initiative—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—in putting forward a commercial bargaining position, which we all hope will lead to a successful renegotiation of the RB211 contract. But are the Government taking any action to prevent a liquidator being appointed in the meantime while the negotiations are continued? Is it still their intention to try to prevent a liquidation and have a reorganisation rather than a liquidation and a nationalisation?
Mr. Corfield: While thanking my hon. Friend for his initial comment, I can only express the hope that the Opposition
34
will not make a satisfactory conclusion of these negotiations more difficult. On the question of a liquidation, the Government have no power in this matter, but, as I have repeatedly told the House, we are considering such schemes as have been put to us and are prepared to consider other schemes.
Mr. Palmer: The right hon. Gentleman said that the redundancies are expected mainly in Derby and in Scotland. How many redundancies are expected in the Bristol area?
Mr. Corfield: None, Sir.
Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson: Can my right hon. Friend say how many of the redundancies are caused by the RB211 and how many are caused by overstaffing?
Mr. Corfield: As I tried to make clear, the whole of these redundancies are due to over-staffing and are not affected by the future of the RB211 one way or another.
Mr. Thorpe: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman three short questions? First, since the Government had a considerable part to play in the bankruptcy, can we know how much longer they intend to finance the RB211 project? Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that it will be for a sufficiently long period to allow negotiations to continue? Second, while I accept the need for a warranty, will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the£60 million offer would be approximately the cost of closing down the project when assessed in terms of redundancy payments, unemployment payment and loss of tax? Third, can he confirm or deny the suggestion that the wide-scale redundancies which have already taken place were one of the conditions the Government put to the Receiver before expressing their willingness to come in?
Mr. Corfield: As to the continuation of the indemnity, so long as there is reasonable expectation of a settlement, the answer to the right hon. Gentleman's first question is, "Yes". The answer to his second question is, "No". The article to which I think the right hon. Gentleman refers does not take into account the very substantial other losses which could and probably would fall upon Her Majesty's Government. There has been

35
absolutely no suggestion that any condition of the sort the right hon. Gentleman described in his last question was put to the receiver.
Mr. Costain: Does my right hon. Friend realise that the Opposition's attitude will make negotiations more difficult? They turn any national calamity to political advantage; they even tried to gain political advantage from the incident last week when a Greek ship ran into a wreck in the English Channel.
Mr. Corfield: Some of their attitudes do not help.
Mr. Ross: Will the right hon. Gentleman give us a breakdown of the 4,000 redundancies between Derby and Scotland, including Barnoldswick? Are we to take it that there have been no discussions between the Receiver and the Government about this matter or between the Receiver and the trade unions, and that the trade unions are merely being informed?
Mr. Corfield: The breakdown is approximately 1,700 in the Glasgow area, 2,000 in the Derby area, and 240 at Barnoldswick. I understand that the Receiver has consulted the trade unions. As to other consultations, this is primarily a matter for the commercial judgment of the new board, the executives of which are the same as the old board, but of course the Government have been kept informed.
Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Can my right hon. Friend say a little about the employers' side of the redundancy payments? Will it be secured? Do the workers get top priority in a liquidation?
Mr. Corfield: The National Redundancy Payments Fund will meet all the obligations, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment will rank as an unsecured creditor with the receiver.
Mr. Whitehead: In view of the rather depressing news about the negotiations over the RB211 engine and the astonishing speed with which the receiver has acted in executing the redundancies in the Derby division, what is the right hon. Gentleman's estimate of further redundancies in the event of a failure to renegotiate the RB211 contract?
Mr. Corfield: I can only give the hon. Gentleman the rather broad bracket which was given to me by Rolls-Royce, which was between 12,000 and 18,000.
Mr. Lane: In view of the importance to Britain's commercial reputation and prospects of salvaging the RB211, can my right hon. Friend confirm that the Government will continue to show the greatest possible flexibility in the negotiations with Lockheed?
Mr. Corfield: As I have already told the House, the Government have made it quite clear that we are open to counteroffers.
Mr. Sheldon: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is unrealistic to expect Lockheed to go ahead on the basis that he has outlined in a company over which it has no control? What he is suggesting is that he has decided that it is time to wind up operations on the RB211. What is the right hon. Gentleman's estimate of the cost to the Exchequer of redundancy payments and unemployment pay if the RB211 were scrapped?
Mr. Corfield: Mr. Haughton made it quite clear that if it had not been for his company's difficult financial situation he would be very interested in the proposition we put to him, but that because of those financial difficulties he would naturally have to consult. There was no question of turning the proposition down as impractical. The Government have not decided that the best thing to do is to wind up the RB211 project. We are anxious to negotiate, and I have made it quite clear that we are open to further offers. Estimates have been made, and it is abundantly clear that the figures in the article to which I have referred were wrong.
Mr. Kilfedder: I know my right hon. Friend's deep concern for Northern Ireland after the collapse of Rolls-Royce. Are any of the workers engaged on the RB211, either at Short Bros, and Harland or Rolls-Royce at Dundonald, likely to be made redundant?
Mr. Corfield: The present redundancies are redundancies that would have taken place anyway. I understand that if there are redundancies in Northern Ireland they will be in tens rather than hundreds.
Mr. Harold Wilson: The hon. Gentleman referred to the estimate of redundancies he had been given in the bracket of 12,000 to 18,000. Was that of people in the direct employ of Rolls-Royce, or did it also include consequential unemployment in subsidiaries, suppliers and component manufacturers? If it did not include them, has he an estimate of the numbers who will be affected there? Second, when the right hon. Gentleman shows his sensitivity to criticism in the House, even critical questions, is he aware that this stems partly from the contradictory statements made by Ministers in the House and outside? The House will continue to probe him and his colleagues very vigorously until we can have all the facts. That is why we have suggested a Select Committee to examine the record of successive Governments and the company in this respect.
Mr. Corfield: The figures I gave were those given to me by Rolls-Royce affecting its own employees only. I cannot give any accurate estimates on the second head. I have made it clear that I am very anxious to keep the House informed, and I will continue to do so. It has already been announced that there will be a White Paper.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not think that we can debate these matters now. We have a very important debate ahead.
Mr. Benn: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely:
"the substantial unemployment announced today affecting workers employed by Rolls-Royce and the redundancies forecast if terms for the continuation of the RB211 are not secured, and the uncertainties now experienced by subcontractors and others as a result of the contradictory statements by Ministers".
May I first draw attention to the urgency and immediacy of these matters. The unemployment of 4,300 announced today is already a fact. The redundancies forecast by the Minister of Aviation Supply of 12,000 to 18,000 do not include the secondary effect on employment. Using the normal five to one ratio, we can see that we are talking about the livelihood of about 100,000 people. The uncertainties experienced by the subcon-
38
tractors flow in part from the fact that the Receiver is not answerable to the House but only to the creditors, and therefore there is no one in the House to whom we can now put questions for authoritative answer on the position affecting Rolls-Royce, its subcontractors or its workers.
Since the negotiations are proceeding and the Minister has told the House that the terms are negotiable, I submit that it would be proper for the House to have the opportunity to debate the matter briefly tomorrow.
Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he thinks should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the susbstantial unemployment announced today affecting workers employed by Rolls-Royce and the redundancies forecast if terms for the continuation of the RB211 are not secured, and the uncertainties now experienced by subcontractors and others as a result of the contradictory statements by Ministers".
As the House knows, under the revised Standing Order No. 9 I am directed to take account of the several factors set out in the Order but to give no reason for my decision.
I have given careful consideration to all the representations the right hon. Gentleman has made. I have decided that I cannot submit his application to the House.
Hon. Members: Oh.
Mr. Speaker: Order. Other ways must be found to debate this very important matter.
When it was suggested that Standing Order No. 9 should be altered, some people foresaw great trouble for the Chair. I did not think that that was necessarily so, and I hope that I will not be proved to be wrong.
I am not allowed to give reasons for my decisions, but I think that I can say this to the House. The revised Standing Order was approved on 14th November, 1967, following upon a Report by the Select Committee on Procedure, ordered to be printed on 20th December, 1966. In the three Sessions prior to that Report no Standing Order No. 9 Motion had been successful. In the whole of the previous 20 years only 15 had been successful. New

39
criteria for granting a debate were set out in paragraphs 7 to 10 of the Report and were specifically accepted by the then Government and the then Opposition on 14th November, 1967.
It is according to these criteria that I have to administer Standing Order No. 9. Those are the rules, and until they are altered I am bound by the criteria set out. Since my election to the Chair two successful applications for debates under Standing Order No. 9 have been made to me. I suggest, with great respect to the House, that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen should reread the criteria laid down in the Select Committee's Report.
Mr. Harold Wilson: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The House recognises that the decision in this matter is entirely for the Chair and cannot be questioned. Nor can we press you for reasons, although you have made a statement following upon your adjudication. May I make a submission to you—not on today's application, which you have decided? Since it is clear from what the Minister of Aviation Supply has said that negotiations are continuing but that a very much more grievous situation would emerge if the RB211 were cancelled, will you at any rate consider, although not adjudicate on it today, a further application should that very much more grave situation emerge during the week? Certainly we give notice that we would seek to make such application.
Would you, at your leisure, consider certain Standing Order No. 9 Adjournment debates which have taken place since 1967—for example, the debates on the Soames affair and on Nigeria—which arose exactly as the request did today, and inform us what were the criteria which applied in their case but did not apply today?
Mr. Speaker: I am not allowed to discuss the criteria for granting a particular Motion, particularly one granted by my predecessors. But I remind the House that in the last three months or so, there have been three successful Motions under Standing Order No. 9 and that if right hon. and hon. Members would only read the relevant paragraphs in the Select Committee's Report they would see why I am acting as I am. This is a very difficult matter for the Chair. When the reform was being discussed many right
40
hon. and hon. Members said that it would put an impossible burden on the Chair, and it is indeed very difficult. I think that the House should find other ways of discussing the Rolls-Royce matter.
Mr. Walter Johnson: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. During questioning, the Minister made it clear that there had been full consultation by the Receiver with the trade unions concerned about the redundancies declared today. I can state that there has been no consultation with the trade unions. They have been presented with a fait accompli, being given the dates when these men would be made redundant. This is a disgraceful state of affairs.
Mr. Speaker: Whether that is so or not, it is not a point of order.
Mr. Thorpe: May I return to the point put by the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker? The House will, of course, wish to accept your Ruling and the framework within which you have to give such a Ruling—namely, that no reason need be given for the Chair's decision. It it within the knowledge of the House that one of the criteria is the possibility of a debate on the matter in question in the foreseeable future. Without asking you to indicate whether that was or was not one of the grounds for your decision, may I, for the assistance of the House, ask the Leader of the House whether he sees an opportunity for debate presenting itself in the immediate future?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw): Further to that point of order. I think that the House appreciates the importance of conducting the negotiations with Lockheed and not saying anything which might make those negotiations more difficult. To that extent, my right hon. Friend has made it clear that he will keep the House informed of the progress of the negotiations whenever he can do so. He has given that promise. Of course there are opportunities for the House, and I shall announce certain opportunities—for example, a Supply Day—when this may be the wish, certainly next week.
Mr. Benn: May I raise a wider point of order, Mr. Speaker? When Rolls-Royce collapsed, the Government presented a Bill rapidly to Parliament to

41
permit them to acquire the assets. The Opposition facilitated the passage of the Bill, which went through in one day. We are now in the position where there is no accountability for the conduct of the company. Whereas Parliament has passed and the Sovereign has assented to legislation to permit the company to be taken into public ownership, we are in a position where the company is run by someone who is not accountable to the House. The decisions which have been announced affect workers in constituencies of many right hon. and hon. Members, yet we have no means of raising these problems and getting an answer from the Minister.
The Leader of the House quite properly has said, in another context—the matter of the RB 211 engine—that the Government are in charge of the negotiations. The result is that in relation to part of the company the Government have assumed full responsibility for the negotiation with Lockheed, whereas for the other part, involving our own constituents, the Government disclaim any responsibility whatever. The situation raises a most important point of parliamentary accountability and I wonder whether you could advise us as to where we stand in respect of the accountability of the Government for the conduct of Rolls-Royce.
Mr. Speaker: I am not sure that that is a point of order, but I will consider what the right hon. Gentleman has said. There are other ways of arranging debate on the subject than an application under Standing Order No. 9. I think that it is a matter for discussion between the usual channels, not for the Chair. I must adhere to my decision under Standing Order No. 9. If the House decides to alter the criteria, I will try to administer the new Standing Order as best I can.

ROLLS-ROYCE

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Ordered,
  That the Proceedings on the Motions relating to Standing Orders (Revision) may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour for a period of one hour after they have been entered upon, though opposed.—[Mr. Clegg.]

  ORDERS OF THE DAY

    IMMIGRATION BILL
    Order for Second Reading read.
    3.58 p.m.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Reginald Maudling): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
    The aim of the Bill is to
    "Amend and replace the present immigration laws, to make certain related changes in the citizenship law and enable help to be given to those wishing to return abroad, and for services connected therewith."
    The Bill carries out the undertaking which we gave at the election in our party manifesto to introduce a new system of control over permanent immigration from overseas. It also carries out what I think has been for some time accepted as a very necessary objective—namely, to bring more order into our rather confused legislation on this subject. Succeeding Home Secretaries from both sides of the House have repeated how desirable it would be to have permanent legislation of a comprehensive character in this matter in place of the temporary legislation, renewed from time to time, which we have, in the case of aliens at any rate, at the present time.
    Those are the purposes of the Bill, but perhaps I should start by stating that as a matter of general principle I believe that the most important problem that any Government have to face in this whole context is the problem of community relations and that the question of immigration policy in a sense is secondary or ancillary to that basic problem. We have a problem of community relations, as everyone knows. I believe that we in this country have handled it as an example to the rest of the world, and I believe that we can and shall continue to do so.
    For many years, over generations, there was free admission to the country for Commonwealth citizens, and I think that both parties were reluctant to bring that situation to an end. But control became quite necessary, because of the scale of immigration which took place, because of the speed at which it took place, and because of the way in which it was concentrated in certain areas where whole

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    districts changed their character very rapidly.
    In the late '50s and early '60s, there was clearly a major social problem building up, and it was for that reason, and that reason alone, that in 1962 the previous Conservative Government took the step of putting some limitation on Commonwealth immigration. At the time we were attacked and bitterly criticised. I remember at least one university debate which I had with the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), my predecessor, when he attacked me strongly and, no doubt, conscientiously. But although the then Government were criticised at that time, when the Labour Party came into power it continued to operate the principles of the Act, and rightly. The simple fact is that some control had become necessary in the interests of society in this country, including, I must against emphasise, those immigrants already here.
    I believe that there is now a need to do what we seek in the Bill to do, to place control of immigration on a logical basis and, I hope, on a definitive basis, and I stress that I hope that as the Bill passes through Parliament we can do that. I want to be open at all times to consider suggestions for amendment or improvement, because I want the Bill to be definitive and lasting in the interests of community relations.
    I am afraid that the Bill is necessarily very complex, because this is a very complex subject, as complex, I must confess, as I have met in my political experience, and that has given rise to a number of misunderstandings in the Press and among the public, some of which I hope to correct this afternoon. I believe that the future system in concept and principle will be much simpler, but inevitably in changing from a situation which is so difficult and complicated the Bill itself cannot by any means be simple.
    I want to stress that the main purpose of immigration policy in the situation which the country faces is as a contribution to the great problem of ensuring that the varied communities which we have here can settle down progressively over the years to live together in peace and harmony. If we are to succeed in this, we must have regard both to those who have always lived here and those
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    who are here as immigrants. We must rightly have concern for the interests of both those sections of our single community.
    It is right to say that if we are to get progress in community relations, we must give assurance to the people who were already here before the large wave of immigration that this will be the end and that there will be no further large-scale immigration. Unless we can give that assurance, we cannot effectively set about the job, entrusted to the Race Relations Board and the Community Relations Commission, of improving community relations.
    It is right to say that many people are concerned about the possibility under the existing system of substantial numbers of people from abroad coming here, very substantial with their families, to take up jobs here and carrying with them the automatic right to remain here once they have arrived. This is what the main provisions of the Bill, the new system of control of entry, are about.
    Secondly, it is enormously important to reassure the immigrants already here as part of our community that they will have no loss of status under the Bill, that in this country there will be no first and second-class citizens. Those are the two main objectives of the Bill, and I claim that it succeeds in achieving both.
    The extension of control over Commonwealth citizens applies to those who are seeking permanent admission on a working basis, who are already subject to a form of control. The Bill is based by and large on a new system of control for those seeking entry on a permanent working basis, and there will be no change in their status once they are here as Commonwealth citizens. I should like to re-emphasise, as there has been some misunderstanding in some Commonwealth newspapers in particular, that Commonwealth citizens coming to this country will continue to enjoy the special status of a British subject, not an alien, a status giving them what an alien does not have—voting rights and the right to take part in the political processes of this country, including, of course, Membership of Parliament.
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Is that precisely correct? If a voucher holder is now here and wishes to bring

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    in his dependants, is it not the case that after 1971 he will be in a worse position, as there will be discretion rather than the statutory right which he now has?
    Mr. Maudling: The hon. Gentleman is assiduous in his reading of the newspapers. I intend to deal with that later in my speech.
    How does the Bill set about carrying out its purpose? It does it by creating the right of abode, in other words, defining people who have a right of abode, who can come and go and stay here as much as they like, totally free of control. People who have a right of abode will be able to do that. Other people, from whatever country, will be subject to control.
    We have to have a word for people having the right of abode and the word we have used is "patrial"—and I am still not sure which is the correct pronunciation. The great advantage of using this word is that it enables us to get away from a word which I have always disliked, the word "alien". I do not think that it is sensible to describe other human beings as "alien" if one can avoid it.
    Patrials, those who have the right to come and go as they please, will be: first, citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies whose parents or grandparents were born here; secondly, citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies who, at any time, have been settled here for five years; thirdly, any Commonwealth citizen who had a father or mother or grandparent born in the United Kingdom. They will have the right of patriality, the right of abode, the right to come and go free of control.
    Mr. Marcus Lipton: How many of them?
    Mr. Maudling: There will be a large number.
    Mrs. Renée Short Mrs. Renée Short (Wolverhampton, North-East) rose—
    Mr. Maudling: I will give way later.
    There will be millions who will be directly patrial, every one of whom had the right to come here until a few years ago; the hon. Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton) has raised a totally bogus point.
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    Patriality has been attacked as a racial concept, an argument which I wholly reject and which the party opposite will have no difficulty in rejecting, for reasons which I will give. I see no reason why a country should not accord to those who have a family connection with it a particular and special status. There are many examples of this in many countries.
    It is said that most of the people with patrial status will be white. Most of us are white, and it is completely turning racial discrimination on its head to say that it is wrong for any country to accord those with a family relationship to it a special position in the law of that country.
    Let me give one or two examples of what I mean. So far as I know, it has always been the case that a Commonwealth citizen whose father was born here was entitled automatically to United Kingdom citizenship. That has always been the case under every Government and it has never been challenged. I see nothing wrong with extending what applies to the paternity of a father to someone whose mother was born here.
    There is an extension to grandparents. This follows exactly the precedent of the Act of 1968 which defined those who belonged to this country as those citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies who had a parent or grandparent born in this country. As a further example of this extension of this principle of affinity, it is the fact that every Independence Act passed by any Government has given a special position in respect of United Kingdom citizenship in independent countries to those who had a father or grandfather born in this country. If it is said that this is a racialist concept, it is one that has been evolved in principle by succeeding Governments as far as I can recall.
    Mr. Charles Loughlin: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me how many citizens of the new Commonwealth, that is the coloured Commonwealth, will be entitled to come into this country under the designation of the grandfather?
    Mr. Maudling: I cannot give an exact number. What I am saying is that the principle I have enunciated seems to be reasonable in practice and one that has been part of the law of the land for decades.

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    My next point is about those who will be subject to control, those who are not patrial. All who are not enabled to claim the right of patriality will be subject to control of admission, but the change in the system of control which we are proposing will apply only to those who are coming to settle here on a working basis. There will be no effect on visitors to this country; no effect on those who can maintain themselves here; no effect on Commonwealth students and no effect on working holiday-makers. None of those are affected by this Measure. The only effect on those who come to work permanently, who are already subject to a form of control, will be that in future they will be subject to a different form of control.
    Those Commonwealth citizens already here free of condition, broadly speaking all Working immigrants here, will not be affected. They will be allowed to work where they wish as at present. They will be allowed automatic citizenship as at present. There will be no new papers to be carried, they will be allowed to bring in dependants. Hon. Members have pointed out that a number of newspapers, beginning I think with the Sunday Times, have commented upon the immigration rules. As drafted the Rules for admission would impose upon immigrants already here a need in future to show that they can sustain their relatives and dependants. This is not in accordance with what I intended and I will change it in future. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] As I have said, I do not intend that the position of those already in this country, the rights of those already in this country to bring in their dependants, shall be changed. That is what we promised in the election. If the Rules as drafted do not make this clear, they will certainly be amended. It is a good point and I take it.
    Mr. James Callaghan: This is an important point which has been brought about by the proposal in Schedule 6 to repeal the whole of the 1962 Act. Is the Home Secretary saying, as the statutory right is being destroyed, that he intends to insert some provisions to take the place of the 1962 provisions, to restore the statutory right so that it is not just a question of an administrative discretion by the Home Secretary?
    Mr. Maudling: This is a different point. The point is on Rule 37 of the Immigration Rules. The right hon. Gentleman can develop his point later. The point that has been made in the Press is a good one. We said that people already here should have the same right in future as they now have to bring in their wives and dependants. As drafted, the Rules impose an obligation to make it clear that they can support their wives. This is not my intention and it will be changed to bring it into line with what I said.
    Mr. Callaghan: I am sorry to interrupt again but this is a cardinal point. The reason why the Rules are so drafted is because the statutory right which existed under the 1962 Act has disappeared. The new Rules now provide certain conditions. What I am asking the Home Secretary, and I think that it is susceptible of a clear answer is: does he intend to restore the statutory rights of immigrants who are already in this country to bring in their dependants?
    Mr. Maudling: I am not intending to change the statutory provisions, I am intending to amend the Rules under the Statute, Rule 37. The right to bring in dependants will be under the Rules and not under the Statute. The Rules like the Statute are subject to Parliament and will be put to Parliament. As the Wilson Committee pointed out, it makes no practical difference whether it is under the Rules approved by the Parliament or under the Statute.
    Mr. Callaghan Mr. Callaghan rose—
    Mr. Maudling: If the right hon. Gentleman thinks that I am wrong he will have an opportunity to develop that later and I will be happy to hear him. If I am wrong and Rule 37 is not right, we will change it. I have no pride in sticking to something which I have been shown could be wrong.
    Mr. Callaghan: I think that the Home Secretary is entitled to put the exact position to the House. I am sure that he understands his own Bill. The Rules which are drafted are not necessarily subject to the affirmative or even the negative procedure in the House. They are submitted to the House for the convenience of the House and have no statutory authority. I repeat my question.

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    What the present Bill has done is to destroy the statutory right of immigrants. The Home Secretary says that he does not wish to destroy any rights and I simply ask him therefore, does he intend to restore the statutory rights which the Bill destroys?
    Mr. Maudling: The right hon. Gentleman has repeated the question and I repeat my answer. I do not intend to change the statutory rights. If he does not like what I am saying, let him say so. What I do say is that the Rules as drafted do not carry out my undertaking that people should be allowed to bring in their dependants without this new test. If the Rules are not in accordance with my undertaking they will be changed. I have accepted the change if it is necessary to bring this into line with our policy and our undertakings.
    In future all who come to work here will need work permits which will have to be renewed after a year here. They will be registered through the medium of the police. I want to talk about this seriously because this can be made to sound tyrannical—registering through the police. I was rather surprised to hear one distinguished cleric the other day on B.B.C. likening this to the South African pass laws. This is sheer and unadulterated rubbish. The condition of registration has been accepted for years and years by all immigrants coming to this country from places other than the Commonwealth. All Americans and Scandinavians who have come here over the years have accepted this and, so far as I know, have made no protest.
    Mr. Stanley Orme: They are not Commonwealth citizens.
    Mr. Lipton: They are foreigners.
    Mr. Maudling: The basis of control for foreign and Commonwealth citizens and aliens is what was stated at the election and what the people voted for. We are doing that. What I am saying is that to describe this form of control as tyrannical is nonsense. It has been accepted by all these people from America and Europe without protest. If people should say, "Ah, it is all right for Europeans and Americans" which I sometimes hear argued, the interesting fact is that at present in this country there are no less than 12,000 Arab people
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    working under this system of registration making no protest at all against it.
    Mr. Robert Hughes Mr. Robert Hughes (Aberdeen, North) rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I must point out that I have the names of some 60 hon. and right hon. Gentlemen wanting to speak in this debate.
    Mr. Maudling: I will do my best to deal with these things as briefly as I can. Registration is necessary if there is to be control. Registration through the police has always been the system adopted because for administrative reasons it is difficult to find a better one. I say quite frankly to the House if in the course of our discussions on the Bill we can find a better system than registration through the police I will be happy to consider it. It must be a system of registration that works. The point is that in many cases the police are the only people who can collect the information. It is not their job to follow it up, it is their job to enforce when the immigration authorities consider that enforcement is necessary. People are not supposed to go to the police unnecessarily.
    What happens is that they register with the police if they have a particular job and they have to re-register after a year and get permission extended. If they fail to register in due time inquiries will be made. This is a system that has worked perfectly satisfactorily for many years. To talk about harassment by the police is a complete misunderstanding of the situation. The police do not harass immigrants in this country, nor would the Bill give any opportunity to an ill-advised constable to harass an immigrant which he does not possess at the moment.
    It is not proper for a police constable to inquire of a person, to ask him to produce his identity, unless he has reasonable grounds to suspect that an offence has been committed. That is true now and will remain true. It can be argued that if a policeman wrongly wanted to harass a coloured immigrant he could ask for his papers, but he can already do that now. He can say, "I think you are an illegal immigrant, you came off the beaches at Littlehampton, you came across the water undetected." He already has the power. Nothing in the Bill will give any opportunity to a policeman to harass coloured immigrants which he

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    does not already have. I do not accept the charge that the police wish to harass the coloured immigrant population in this country. I say quite categorically—because inaccurate and wrong things have been said about this which can only damage community relations—that nothing in the Bill is calculated to give or gives the opportunity for the police to harass individuals any more than that which they might have at present.
    I turn to the question of the police not wanting the power. The stories which have been widely spread remind me of what the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East said in our debates in June and November last year about the vast bureaucratic machine we are creating and the burden on the police. Let us look at the estimate. It is estimated that by 1976 the police will require another 15 people to carry out the control. This is the extent of the so-called vast bureaucratic machine and the enormous burden on the police. The facts should have put away that canard by now.
    I come to the question of citizenship. It must be remembered that citizenship is necessary only for certain purposes. For example, those who come here as Commonwealth citizens and who are free of conditions after five years are free to remain here unconditionally. The right of Commonwealth citizens to vote and to take part in the political life of this country depends, not upon citizenship, but on their being Commonwealth citizens resident here.
    The only change which in practice takes place in a person's status when he becomes a United Kingdom citizen, having been a Commonwealth citizen, is that he has the advantage of freedom from deportation. If he wants this freedom, if he wants to be accepted unconditionally and to throw in his lot completely with this country, it is not unreasonable to ask him to meet a test at present applied to people from other countries, namely, that they should have reasonable knowledge of our language. If he comes from a country which does not recognise the Crown, he should take an oath of allegiance to the Crown. No one has to do this unless he wants to do it. But if anyone wants to throw in his lot permanently with this country it is not unreasonable to ask him to do it.
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    I come to the important question of deportation. The main point which has been made in discussion and criticism of the Bill concerns the use of deportation in what are called non-conducive cases in which the Secretary of State decides that a person's presence is not conducive to the general good. This is regarded as a new and tyrannical power. It is nothing of the sort. It has always rested in the Home Secretary. It was said in The Times today that this was a fresh new power of control. It is not a new power. The Home Secretary has always had it. My predecessor said in connection with the immigration rules presented in February, 1970:
    "Even where the court has not recommended the deportation of an alien the Secretary of State may decide to make a deportation order as being conducive to the public good".
    We are carrying on the traditional principle which is recognised by every country which I know. I cannot think of a country which does not have the right of removing people who are citizens of other countries if they are not, in the opinion of the Government, conducive to the public good. The phrase "conducive to the public good" is to be found in the legislation of a number of new Common wealth countries. Many countries throughout the world have a power which is even wider than the power which is traditional in this country and which should always be at the disposal of a government.
    The question which arises in many people's minds is, what should be done about appeals? Let me set out the position as it seems to me. I do not think that anyone who is not a citizen of this country can be said to have a right to come and live here. If the Government refuse to let him come, and if the Government's decision is wrong, that is a matter for the British Parliament to decide in the interests of the British people. If I or any of my successors make a wrong decision we are answerable to the normal democratic processes of Parliament, which is the way in which the matter should be dealt with under our Constitution.
    The present system is bad. Everyone agrees, after a recent case which was debated only a short time ago, that the present system is not satisfactory for two

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    reasons. First, it puts forward as a justiciable issue what is an act of policy. This point was argued by my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor during the passage of the recent Bill. It is quite wrong to dress up as something to be decided by the court as a matter of law what is an act of policy by Government where the appeal should lie, not to a court, but to Parliament.
    Secondly, the proceedings, as they went ahead, gave the appearance of a trial in which someone was put on trial on the basis of evidence which could not be fully disclosed to him.
    For both reasons, there is considerable disquiet about the present situation. Once again, I should like to have the assistance of the House and of hon. Members in Committee in discussing a very difficult problem in order to get it absolutely right, but I propose that we go back to the old system. When someone wants to come to this country from abroad, if the Government wish to say "no", it should be for Parliament to decide. It is different when people have already been admitted to this country and we want to take the initative to change their position.
    I have been considering whether, particularly in security and political cases, it might be right to use the procedure know as the three advisers whereby cases in which members of the Civil Service are affected are heard by a panel of "three wise men" or advisers. A system which works for British civil servants and gives them protection could be relied upon to give adequate protection to other people in this country.
    The question of repatriation is dealt with in Clause 29, which gives us power to make contributions towards the expenses of people returning abroad. This is only an enabling power. Let me make clear what the Government intend to do. I do not believe in large-scale repatriation. It is wrong because it would not work and the attempt to make it work would be enormously damaging to what I see as the real objective of our policy, namely, to improve community relations among people already here. That is why we do not intend to embark on a large scale programme of repatriation. It would not be right to pay the fares home of those who can afford to pay them themselves. If people can afford to pay
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    and want to leave this country, it is obviously a bribe to them to go. How can we reconcile that with our desire to make one single community in this country?
    However, there is an argument for extending the present very limited powers to assist repatriation. They are limited pretty well to those who come under the aegis of the social benefit system. There may be instances of immigrant families who clearly have not settled down and will not settle down in this country and who would like to go home but cannot afford to do so. It seems to me common sense, humanitarian and in everyone's interest to provide assistance in such cases. This is the Government's thinking behind the policy of repatriation and this is the way in which we intend to use these powers if the House gives them to us.
    I come to offences under the Bill. Part III deals with a number of offences concerned with immigration. The main provision is to put severe new penalties on people who engage in trafficking in illegal immigrants. I am sure that the House will agree entirely with our objective. I regard trafficking in illegal immigrants as being almost on a par with trafficking in dangerous drugs. People who make money out of this activity should be severely punished, and that is the purpose of the Bill.
    The other point under the heading of penalties concerns the question of proceeding against people who are here illegally. I think it is right, in the interests of those who want to come here and are trying to come here legitimately, to ensure that those who jump the queue and come in illegally do not benefit from it. By a strange provision of the law, anyone who sneaks in across the beaches late at night and is not seen is safe for ever so long as he is here for six months; whereas a person who comes here on one condition and stays in breach of that condition is not. This is because a person who comes in illegally commits one offence and after six months is exempt, whereas a person in breach of a condition commits a continuing offence and can therefore always be prosecuted. I therefore propose to extend the six months' period, which is quite inadequate, to three years. The House will recognise this as a sensible provision

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    to protect the interests of those who are here and to protect the fair treatment of those who are wanting to come here and not trying to jump the gun or beat the queue.
    There is another point about illegal immigrants and powers of arrest. It was said in The Times this morning that we are taking an extra power to arrest without warrant those who are suspected of taking part in illegal immigration. This is not a new power. It was a power contained first in the Commonwealth Immigrants Act, 1962, and extended in the Act of 1968. It is a sensible power. If a police constable comes across a group of illegal immigrants on a beach or secreted in a cellar, he cannot do his job if all he can do is take their names and call back for them later. There must be a power of arrest on the spot, and this has been recognised by the previous Government and continued by us. Once again I am disturbed about stories being put forward of new harassments and new powers in the Bill. On close examination they will be found not to be new but part of the system which has been in operation for a considerable time.
    I turn now to one subject which is not covered by the Bill but which I regard as of great importance. That is, those people who are known as United Kingdom passport holders, mainly people of Asian origin living in East Africa. May I take the liberty of referring the House to what I said in a debate in 1968:
    "The main problem is that of Asians coming from Kenya. The basic problem, stated quite simply, is that these people have quite undeniably been given certain rights. Equally, if they all exercise these rights, or seek to do so, at the same time, serious consequences will follow for everyone, including the Asians themselves.…There is no doubt about the rights that these people possess. When they were given these rights, it was our intention that they should be able to come to this country when they wanted to do so.…Equally, there is no doubt about the problem which can, and will, be created if the rate of immigration goes ahead too rapidly, a problem just as serious for the immigrant communities as for the rest of us."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1968; Vol. 759, c. 1344.]
    This problem remains the same, and my view has not changed in any way from what I said in 1968 when supporting, with reluctance, the Bill which my
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    predecessor moved with reluctance. I believe that it was the best solution for this country, unhappy as it was in many ways.
    I had hoped to be able to make progress in finding an answer to this serious problem which would do justice both to the people in East Africa and in this country who are concerned about the damage to community relations of a further large flow of immigrants into this country. I had hoped to be able to say something about this, but the changing situation in East Africa, and particularly the change of Government in Uganda, have made it impossible for me to proceed with discussions. As soon as I can make any proposals on this, I will do so. I am sure my predecessor will accept from me that I should be a very happy man if I could make a useful contribution to this problem. The Bill does not affect this problem, which is a problem of finding a practical solution and not a question of changing the law.
    I have run over most of the major points of the Bill, which contains a vast mass of detail which we shall be debating. I have also dealt with some points not in the Bill and tried to deal with some of the criticisms that have been advanced.
    In future, the control of people coming for permanent settlement as working people will be in the hands of the Department of Employment, as it is already for anyone not from the Commonwealth. The Department will continue to administer control on the basis of giving work permits to those people who, by and large, can be seen to be making a contribution to the economic and social life of the country and where there is not a resident person available to do the job instead.
    So far as volume is concerned—and the Bill sets up the powers, not the administration—we shall have in future greater flexibility in deciding the rate at which people shall be admitted. It is the Government's belief that, especially in present circumstances, there should be a further reduction in the number of unskilled and semi-skilled people coming from all sources for permanent working immigration here. Under the Bill the total who come in future will be such as will carry out our undertaking of the election that there will be no further large-scale permanent immigration.

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    I commend the Bill to the House as a Bill carrying out faithfully the undertakings which we made at the time of the General Election and which we were elected to carry out; as a Bill which has been misrepresented, no doubt unintentionally because of its complication; a Bill which does not affect the community already here and, above all, a Bill which is justified as a contribution to helping us to get the framework and the atmosphere in this country within which alone we can hope that the work of organising unity between the various communities can successfully progress.
    Mr. Deputy Speaker (Miss Harvie Anderson): Before calling the next speaker, I have to inform the House that the Chair has not selected the Amendment in the name of the Leader of the Liberal Party.
    4.35 p.m.
    Mr. James Callaghan: When I occupied the office now held by the present Home Secretary I was as conscious as I am sure he is of the inflammatory tinder that lies around both in immigration control and race relations. I always tried to proceed on the basis that this was not a fit subject for party controversy, if it could be avoided, and that neither the community of immigrants nor the home community would be helped by party divisions on this issue. It was in pursuance of that policy that I proposed, and it was agreed, to set up a Select Committee on Race Relations and Immigration to take under its advice the whole subject of the nature of immigration, the form of control and what relations should be as between school leavers and others.
    I am still of the opinion that we should avoid as far as possible political controversy between the parties on this issue. We cannot avoid it inside the parties, but we can avoid it between the parties. Therefore, there is a double responsibility on me this afternoon to explain why I must oppose the Bill, as I do, and why I believe that it will not carry out the intentions of the Home Secretary. I ask him to understand—as I ask the House and my hon. Friends as well as hon. Gentlemen opposite to understand—that I will try to do it as I would have done it had I been occupying that office, although I am not now so doing.
    An Hon. Member: Thank God.
    Mr. Callaghan: I quite agree. I am sure there are many people who would share the hon. Gentleman's opinion.
    The first question we must ask is whether this single new system of immigration control is an improvement on existing arrangements. If it is not, some part of the case for the Bill, and maybe a large part of the case, disappears. In my view, the new single system of control is not an improvement on the existing system. It takes many of the provisions of the existing aliens legislation control and puts Commonwealth citizens on the same basis as aliens. There are marginal differences, for example for students and visitors, but that is all. In the assimilation of these two codes let me outline what I believe will be the major differences for Commonwealth immigrants in the future. I shall not be able to discuss all of them this afternoon.
    The Home Secretary seemed a little unclear about this next point. This is why—I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman now—I interrupted him three times. At present there is a statutory right written into the law for wives, and children under the age of 16, to join their husbands and fathers in this country. The Bill repeals that statutory right. It becomes an administrative right under Rule 37. The Home Secretary seemed to be under the impression—I do not know whether he is or not—that the rules are subject to approval by Parliament. They are not. Clause 3 states that the rules which derive from the Statute have to be submitted to Parliament, but there is no obligation upon the Home Secretary to secure their approval. So we are removing a statutory right and replacing it by an administrative discretion. In due course we shall certainly seek to put that statutory right back, in accordance with the pledges which the Government have given in the past.
    The second major change will be a time limit imposed on the length of stay of a Commonwealth citizen. Again, this will bring it in accord with the present position of aliens, although I understand that that time limit may and probably will be extended from year to year. I understand that is to be the normal policy. I am outlining the changes now. I shall comment on some of them later.

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    The third major change is that dependants may be admitted only if the husband and father is able to satisfy a means test about his ability to provide accommodation as well as financial support.
    Fourthly, Commonwealth citizens who have been here for five years will, unlike the position at present, be liable to deportation.
    Fifthly, the right of registration—I emphasise the word "right"—as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies of a Commonwealth citizen after he has been here for five years is removed. He has a right at the moment to register. As I understand the Bill, in future he will be in a similar position to an alien—namely, that registration as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies—we must keep our terms right—will be at the discretion of the Home Secretary. Even worse, not only is that automatic right removed, but there will be no appeal against the Home Secretary's right to refuse citizenship.
    It will be noted from what I have said so far that all these five major changes—no one will deny, whether they agree with or oppose them, that they are major changes—will be imposed on persons who will legally be in this country—Commonwealth citizens who will have been admitted already.
    Having described the changes, I come to my first criticism. It seems that the result of passing the Bill, and one reason that I oppose it, is to affect materially and adversely the legal status of Commonwealth citizens who are now, or may in future, be legally resident in this country without materially altering the number of arrivals for immigration. This is my first criticism. This is why I feel that much of the Bill is sailing under false colours.
    Is it really thought to be a means of improving race relations, or is it, as I fear, carrying out election pledges—frankly a sop to prejudice and a thin attempt to make people, who will not study this very complicated Bill, believe that the number of immgrants will, in future, be fewer than in the past. This is one of my basic criticisms of the Bill.
    I must come back to the question of numbers, because that is from where the Bill sprang originally. So much of the
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    Bill is supposed to be about numbers. In reality, as we know, it is not.
    I understand from rules published as recently as last Friday—therefore, I apologise if I have not wholly mastered them; I have done my best to look at them over the weekend—that the system of work permits will continue. Will there be the same number as at present? As far as I can see, it will be the responsibility of employers in future, as in the past, to ask for workers. Employers have not been loth to ask for workers to come here. In the past, it has been the responsibility of employers wanting that kind of labour to ask for it.
    Broadly speaking, we are talking about 4,000 people who are coming here every year. That is what this paraphernalia of control is about. The 4,000 who come here can broadly be divided as to half professional people like doctors, dentists and so on, and the other half workers who may be skilled artisans or, more probably, unskilled artisans.
    I gather from something which the Home Secretary let slip that there might be some reduction in the numbers of unskilled workers. So we are talking about a reduction in a figure of 2,000, or something less, in a population of 55 million. That is what we are talking about.
    Mr. Evelyn King: Plus dependants.
    Mr. Callaghan: Plus dependants. I shall come back to the dependants point later.
    Mr. King Mr. King rose—
    Mr. Callaghan: I do not want to give a wrong impression, so I will put the hon. Gentleman's point now in my own words. The hon. Gentleman is saying that we are talking about 2,000 or fewer than 2,000 people plus any dependants they may want to bring here. I believe that the average number of dependants is about four, so we are talking about a possible reduction from 8,000. Is that intolerable in this community? Really, let the hon. Gentleman come to his senses.
    Will the number of work vouchers be roughly what it is at present? The Home Secretary gave us no different impression. How will they be allocated? Will the professional workers have roughly the same number as now? Will there be

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    roughly 2,000 professional and roughly 2,000 unskilled workers or artisans? Is there to be an upper limit? Will there be a quota for each country? If so, will it be on an arithmetical basis? How will countries fare which so far have had preferential treatment? I take, for example, Malta, which so far has had about 1,000 vouchers a year allocated to it, of which it has taken sometimes 750, sometimes 500.
    In my view, there will be very little difference between the numbers coming now and the numbers who will come in future. I ask the Minister of State, whom I understand will wind up the debate, why he thinks that the Bill will make so much difference to the problem of race relations in this country.
    The plain truth is that when right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite were in Opposition there was very little difference between both sides of the House on the necessity to control numbers. When control was introduced and the number of vouchers was reduced some people thought that it was wrong to reduce it. I did not. It was reduced to 20,000 when the Labour Government came to power. Taking any average number of years immigration has been less under a Labour Government than under a Conservative Government. Some people will think that that is something to boast about, some will think that it is neutral, and others that it is something to criticise. However, the fact of the matter is that when the Labour Government reduced it to 20,000, there was agreement by the then Opposition. Later, when the Labour Government reduced it to 8,500, there was again agreement by the then Opposition. Of that 8,500, about 4,000 a year has been the effective number taken up and used.
    So what is all this about? It is not about controlling numbers, whatever else it may be said to be about. We deserve a better explanation that we have had so far, unless it is the desire of the Government, as a sop to their more prejudiced followers, to mislead the general public.
    The Bill's new principle, as the Home Secretary said, is to divide persons into two classes—those who have the right of abode in this country and those who have not. That difference will determine our immigration policy. Of course, the normal basis, if we did not have the com-
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    plications of the hangover from empire, for determining immigration policy—as to whether one should have a right to enter a country, live in it or leave it—is whether one is a citizen of that country.
    But we have moved away, and have been forced to move away, from that concept as a result of the all-embracing nature of the British Nationality Act of 1948, which conferred the title of British subject upon hundreds of millions of people. I was a member of the Government which passed that Act, and it passed with the general assent of the House, but that Act is the root cause of our immigration control difficulties and of the deeply-held and genuine repugnance in many quarters that British citizens should be excluded from this country—as I found to my cost, when I suffered a volley of abuse during the passage of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act of 1968.
    Mr. J. Enoch Powell: Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that what the 1948 Act did, accurately, was not to confer the status of British subject upon these hundreds of millions, but to continue that status, which they had previously had?
    Mr. Callaghan: Yes, I would agree with the substitution of the word "continue" for the word "confer", except, of course, to this extent—if we are to try to get it right—that it conferred the right of being a British subject in certain circumstances upon citizens of countries when they became independent of the United Kingdom and Colonies. There was special Schedule in the Act of such countries.
    In connection with this problem, I am reminded of the story about Schleswig-Holstein when a Victorian statesman—I believe it was Palmerston—said that there were only three people who had ever understood the problem: one was dead, the second was mad and the third was himself and he had forgotten it. Broadly, this is the nature of the problem when we are talking about the various terms "British subject", "citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies", "Commonwealth citizen" and the various other gradations which exist.
    It was the difficulty which I suffered and the terms of abuse to which I was

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    subjected during the passage of the Commonwealth Immigration Act—yet I felt that it was necessary, although regrettable—which led me to the conclusion, among other things, that what I wanted was a fundamental reappraisal of the citizenship question and of the various terms and titles which could be applied to British subjects who may never have touched these shores, as millions of them never have done.
    It was therefore in agreement with my colleagues that we put this into the Labour Party's election manifesto. The party opposite put in their proposal. But what we should be discussing today, and what we shall have to come back to, is the whole question of citizenship in relation to immigration into this country. I regret that we are not considering it today. I wish that the Government had done so before introducing the Bill, because this Bill is unnecessary in present circumstances.
    It is certainly not urgent. In 1968 I had to act under conditions—as I thought, and the Government agreed—of very great urgency. The same urgency does not exist now because the numbers are under control, whatever the Home Secretary may say. He has time dispassionately, calmly and objectively to consider the question of citizenship. The difficulties which the Government will be in over the so-called "grandfather Clause" spring entirely from their failure to take advantage of this period of relative calm, to sit down and study the question of citizenship again, preferably in conjunction with other Commonwealth Governments.
    I am not suggesting a meeting of Commonwealth Ministers. It is too explosive a situation for that, and I would not wish that upon Ministers in the initial instance. What should have been done, and what it is not too late to do now, is to get the officials of various Commonwealth Governments together and let them conduct an objective survey in the first instance. This later on could lead to a Ministerial conference which might help us with some of these difficulties which we have, and which I hope I am approaching in a spirit of some understanding.
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    I referred to some of the difficulties which the Government will be in by introducing Clause 2. Let me take a specific example—the question of the Anglo-Indians. There are over a million Anglo-Indians, who are, as their name implies, either the children or the grandchildren of persons who were, probably, in the new definition, "patrials". The Oxford Dictionary says that this is rather an obsolete term, but I believe that it prefers the spelling "patrial".
    At the moment, these one million or so Anglo-Indians have only conditional rights of entry into the United Kingdom—that is to say, if they can get a work voucher or entry permit. What will be the position once the Bill is passed and the "grandfather Clause" goes through? I hope that it will not go through. I hope that the Home Secretary means it when he says that he will consider these matters again.
    An Anglo-Indian who cannot now come here except conditionally will be free to come here—over a million of them—at any time by a stroke of the pen—[An HON. MEMBER: "At a stroke."] When they arrive here—I beg hon. Members opposite to understand this—they will not be citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies. They will be British subjects. Therefore, as they are not citizens, and despite the fact that they are British subjects, they will have no right to vote. If they wait five years—[Interruption.] They will have no right to vote. This is a lawyers' field, but let me put my position. They will have no right to vote, but they will not be able to be deported. No one will be able to get rid of them. They are "patrials" and embedded into the Bill—over a million of them—
    Mr. John Hall Mr. John Hall (Wycombe) rose—
    Mr. Callaghan: No, I will not give way. I want to finish this point in my own way, without being tripped up by hon. Gentlemen opposite.
    So they can come, anv restrictions are removed, they will be British subjects, they will not be citizens or have the right to vote, and they cannot be deported.
    Let us take another person who is now put under additional control—the Pakistani immigrant. He is not a patrial, but if he gets his work voucher to come here,

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    subject to conditions, he will be a citizen and he will be a British subject. He will be able to vote, he may get himself elected to a local authority, he may even get himself elected to this House—but the Home Secretary will be able to deport him—
    Mr. Maudling Mr. Maudling indicated dissent.
    Mr. Callaghan: Yes, he will. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman knows what his powers are. I could hardly restrain a guffaw when I heard the right hon. Gentleman say that this Bill is to introduce some order into the system and that it will be definitive. If the Home Secretary believes that, to coin a phrase, he will believe anything.
    That is not true. What I am pointing out, in no spirit of hostility, is that the Bill has been rushed. It has been brought in without proper consideration of the problems of citizenship, through which the consideration of any new legislation, in the absence of some panic situation, should have started.
    It is true that the Bill makes entry unconditional for at least a million persons, any one of whom can arrive. Of course, as the Home Secretary himself acknowledged in response to an interjection, it also makes it unconditional for millions more who are at present in the Commonwealth.
    It is tempting to say that these absurdities arise from slipshod drafting, but they do not. They arise because the Government are putting the cart before the horse—that is to say, control before citizenship, in Clause 2—and this is one of my major reasons for opposing it.
    Some of my hon. Friends—indeed, perhaps even some hon. Gentlemen opposite—go further and say that the Clause is racialist in conception.
    I do not take the view that the provision is racialist in conception. It can apply—and will in future apply, if it lasts—to a white Australian but not to a black Jamaican. In regard to a black Jamaican who is born here and leaves to go to Jamaica, if his son or grandson decides in due course to come back he will be free to do so. Nobody could stop him under this Bill. But a white Australian who originated in Italy will not under the Bill be able to come here—although if he stays in Italy and we
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    join the Common Market, he probably will be able to come here. This is how "order" is to be given to our citizenship problems. Therefore, I do not take the view that this legislation is racialist in concept since it can apply equally to both black and white persons.
    My objections to Clause 2 are on different, but I believe fundamental, grounds. I still have a good deal more to say on this Bill which is an extremely complicated and important measure.
    Mr. Sydney Bidwell: On the point of its being racialist—
    Mr. Callaghan: I would rather not take up points with my hon. Friend now, since we will have plenty of time to deal with them in Committee. I shall be happy to go into them in detail then.
    The Home Secretary has weakened the rights of dependants to join their breadwinners. As I understand the Bill, the statutory right goes. It is replaced by an administrative right, together with financial provisions—which are something quite separate. This breaks the pledge that was given to my hon. Friend the Member for Southall (Mr. Bidwell) by the Prime Minister, and I hope that the Home Secretary will put this matter right. My hon. Friend on 1st December asked the Prime Minister a question about dependants' rights and the Prime Minister replied:
    "We have always made it plain that any legislation we introduce will not affect those already in this country."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1st December, 1970; Vol. 807, c. 1078.]
    That solemn pledge is not carried out by this Bill, and it will not he put right by altering the rules, because the rules are not subject to a decision by Parliament. Indeed, they are not subject to approval by Parliament; they are presented for the convenience of Parliament so that we can know what administrative policy is being carried out.
    I say sincerely to the Home Secretary that the only way he can redeem that pledge made by the Prime Minister on more than one occasion before and after the election is by restoring the statutory right of dependants to come here. I hope that we shall have a clear undertaking from the Minister of State in his reply. Since apparently this was a mistake in drafting and there is no intention to alter

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    the rule, I hope that the statutory right will be restored. If not, we will need to move Amendments in order to replace it.
    It is not sufficient to say "It is in the rules and I intend to act in this way." The present Home Secretary may intend to do so, but a successor can alter them. I do not want to raise any heat in this debate, but we could have a Powell-like administration to replace this one. There are no guarantees that the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) will always stay Home Secretary, especially in such an administration. This is the important point in regard to pledges given to millions of people. It could be a great stumbling block, and indeed a fatal handicap, if this is merely written into the rules and the matter falls into the wrong hands.
    I pass to other points—and there are very many upon which I could touch in the Bill. I turn to the new proposals in Clause 3. Up to now a British subject who is a Commonwealth citizen and who has satisfied the immigration officer at the point of entry that he has the right to enter the country has been free to reside where he likes, to change his job when he likes and to live where he likes; and, like every other citizen, he is under no obligation to seek permission from anybody or to tell the police what he is doing. Provided that he keeps within the law, he is as free as anyone else. However, from now on that situation is to be altered, in my view to the gross detriment of race relations in this country.
    Some British subjects who come to this country, although not all, will be admitted for only a limited period. They will be required to work at a particular job and will be under the surveillance of the police. This provision will apply to only some 4,000 persons or maybe a smaller number. But the original conditions under which these British citizens are admitted can be altered at will. They can be deported if they do not abide by the conditions or if the Home Secretary deems their deportation to be conducive to public good. In those circumstances, there is to be no right of appeal against the Home Secretary's decision.
    The first change is that of admitting men for only 12 months at a time. What is to be the policy at the end of that time? There could be several possibili-
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    ties. One may be that every group of men who come here are to be sent home at the end of 12 months. I do not know what support such a policy would get, but I would regard it as inhuman. It would be severely criticised by employers who took on such men and who trained them for a short period, only to find that just as they became useful they had to be sent home. Presumably a new group would arrive who would have to be retrained. That does not seem to make sense, but it is what is to be permitted by the Statute.
    I would mention a further consideration. I gather from the Home Secretary that under the new rules there will be some selection. If that is to be the case, what is to be the basis of selection and choice of those who are to stay and of those who are to leave? Is the decision to be taken by the Department of Employment? I understand that employers are to make recommendations. What a field here for petty tyranny. What about the man who decides to join a union which the rest of his colleagues have not joined? In a non-union situation what is an employer to say? It will be within the power of that employer to decide, almost as a matter of life and death, whether that man should go back to his own country. On what basis are employers supposed to make reports to the Department of Employment? Are we going to select people for deportation on the basis of their trade union membership? I cannot believe that that is to be the case.
    Mr. Maudling Mr. Maudling indicated dissent.
    Mr. Callaghan: But that is what will happen—the Home Secretary does not realise what his Bill is about.
    Mr. Maudling: This system which in future is to be applied to people coming here from the Commonwealth has been applied for years, and in regard to hundreds of thousands of aliens, without these matters arising.
    Mr. Callaghan: The Home Secretary should study the pattern of alien immigration. He will then get out of this habit which he has got into of thinking that Commonwealth immigration and alien immigration are the same thing or similar. Everybody who knows about aliens who have come to this country and who are employed here knows that they come for

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    different purposes, remain for different purposes and mostly are doing different jobs. The Home Secretary cannot pretend that these two types of immigration are the same. They are not.
    This is one of the reasons I oppose assimilation in this way. This will mean that we are now to put under the surveillance of the Department of Employment people who are employed in factories. There are some aliens in factories, but not very many—[HON. MEMBERS "No."] There is a substantial breakdown on this matter showing that aliens who decide to work in factories here come from an advanced country for experience and stay in this country for six months up to 18 months and then return to their own country.
    Mr. John Wilkinson Mr. John Wilkinson (Bradford, West) rose—
    Mr. Callaghan: No, I will not give way. I am in fact dealing with another interjection at the moment. That is the basis of the matter. The situation is different from the Commonwealth citizen who comes to this country not for experience, but to stay and make his home here and to be employed here.
    I repeat that there is every prospect under these provisions for a petty tyrannical employer bitterly to endanger race relations when he is to be required to make a report on an employee who has come from the Commonwealth for 12 months as to whether such a person is a satisfactory workman; and, if not, it is for the Home Secretary to decide whether that man should return to his own country. So much for that point. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am saying what could happen in the hands of a Powellite Administration—[HON. MEMBERS: "0h."] Of course it could. I am speaking of what the Bill provides and of what the rules mean, and that is what hon. Gentlemen will be voting for.
    My belief and hope is that under the aegis of the present Home Secretary 99 per cent. of the people who come here will stay here. I believe that that is the right hon. Gentleman's hope, too; that they will get their extension from 12 months to two years, from two years to three, from three years to four, and that after that they will settle down and will become full citizens of the country and be able to register, if the Home Secretary
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    gives his assent, as citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman's view, and that of most hon. Members, is that there will not be this great turnover of labour.
    If that is the case, what is all this about? What are we trying to do? What will be the impact of the Bill? If a man comes here for 12 months, supposedly, what prospect has he, for example, of getting a mortgage in order to buy a house? Will any building society give him a loan on that basis? Or what prospects has he of credit facilities in order to establish himself? What prospect has he of any hire purchase in order to buy a motor car? Or perhaps these people should not have motor cars? The plain truth is, and this is a substantial criticism of the Bill, that what it will do will be to create a rootless and shiftless group of immigrants who will not be able to settle because they will not have surety and assurance of the basis on which they are here. That being so, I ask the Home Secretary to reconsider that angle.
    If a man is to be tied to his employment and can change it only if approval is given, if that approval is not given he breaks his conditions, and the Home Secretary can say, "Out you go." What a fertile field for improving race relations. I have never heard of a recipe worse fitted than that for good race relations. I believe that this requirement of Government permission to change jobs is not only unnecessary but intolerable and tyrannical, and we shall seek to delete it from the Bill.
    The Home Secretary made what I thought was a very defensive speech if I may say so, more answering his critics than expounding the virtues of this great Bill—and I do not blame him for that. But many commentators have complained about the provision requiring registration with the police. There have been some hints, and the Home Secretary has hinted again, that the Government will be willing to look again at this provision. I hope that they will, although as the The Times asked this morning: why register at all? What is the purpose of registering these 4,000 people at all?
    The Home Secretary had a little gentle fun at my expense. He said, "You complain about a vast bureaucracy, although 24 are all that I shall need"—[HON.

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    MEMBERS: "Fifteen."] Very well, 15,—but that is only because he has walked backwards. In the original proposals, which must have been laughed out of court when examined in the Home Office, the idea was not only that these people should be registered but that so should students, visitors and all the rest of the millions coming into the country. That is what the Prime Minister initially said in 1968 but, thank heavens, he too has walked backwards from that speech, and I only hope that we can persuade him to walk back on some other matters as well.
    But the very fact that only 15 people will be needed illustrates the point that we are taking these powers to control some 4,000 people a year, many of whom will return to their own countries. It is not sufficient to say that because aliens register with the police these people should also be required to do so. The Home Secretary knows the very delicate relationship existing between police and immigrants. Police leaders and leaders of immigrant communities are working very hard to overcome the feeling of mistrust that exists, but that feeling is there. That this provision will increase the tension I have no doubt at all, and it will also hinder the basic crime prevention duties of the police in present circumstances.
    I would not, on the whole, wish to see registration done by the Department of Employment because I object to the Department's oversight of where a man takes up a job. If we must have registration, my choice would be the Department of Health and Social Security which must, in any case, have the necessary social service records.
    As the Home Secretary said, the provision in Clause 3(5)(b) for deportation if the Home Secretary believes that to be conducive to the public good has existed for some time—indeed, I have used it myself—but the Bill proposes to extend that provision to an entirely new group. So far, it has been applied to aliens who have a home base and a home country to go back to. Now we are to apply it to Commonwealth citizens who are also British subjects, and we shall, at the very least, need to look at it very carefully. In my view, there should be a right of appeal against the Home Secretary's decision,
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    and we shall accordingly move Amendments to achieve that right.
    Clause 3(5)(c) is extremely objectionable because it allows for the deportation of a whole family because one member is deported. What does belonging to a family mean? Suppose the Home Secretary decides that he should deport a whole family because its breadwinner has been found guilty of some offence, and that then the younger members decide to move into lodgings—l6-year-old boys and girls can do that these days, and other things too: are they then members of the same family? is the Home Secretary to say, "You may have split up, or broken with your family and gone into lodgings, you may be living with an aunt, or someone else, but so far as I am concerned you belong to that family, and back you go."
    These may be boys and girls who if not born here will in all probability have had the whole of their education in this country, and be as much a part of our community as is anyone with a white skin. This is a nasty provision. The Home Secretary will get himself a great deal of odium. The provision will be almost impossible to administer, and it will lead to widespread evasion.
    Another objectionable aspect is the requirement of certificates and passports. A Commonwealth citizen will be given a notice, which may be endorsed on his passport, of the length of time he can stay in this country. Then there is the requirement of a certificate of patriality. This requirement will apply to Commonwealth citizens generally, which means Australians as well as West Indians. But let us consider who is most likely to be pulled up.
    Will it be the New Zealander, who will merge naturally into our background because, as the Home Secretary rightly says, we are nearly all white here? Or will it be the small proportion of people who have black faces? Is it not they who are most likely to be asked, "Are you sure that you have a legal right to be here?" No one dreams normally of asking that of anyone with a white face. The assumption is that of course, he is entitled to be here, because the overwhelming proportion of us here are white.
    This requirement will apply to the small group of people who are not white

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    and do not need the certificate of patriality—and most of them will not need it. The Home Secretary made it clear that only about 4,000 of them a year will need to carry it, but one and a quarter million people will be subjected to questioning. Here, again, I ask the Home Secretary, what good does this do in terms of trouble which will outweigh race relations considerations for which he is equally responsible?
    I have dealt at length with Clauses 2 and 3 because they contain general provisions for regulation and control, and in practice these are the Clauses which will bear most hardly on the would-be immigrant. But I must also touch on Clause 29 and the question of repatriation. The Home Secretary has pointed out that the Clause does not apply to the overwhelming proportion of people in this country—that is, anyone who voted for the Conservative Party on the basis that the Government would repatriate 25 per cent., 50 per cent. or 75 per cent. of immigrants has found another broken pledge.
    Mr. John Hall: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will refresh the memory of the House and explain more clearly the particular nature of the pledge to which he is referring. I can remember no such pledge.
    Mr. Callaghan: I said "anybody who voted for the Conservative Party on that understanding". [Interruption.] No one? I am glad to hear it, in which case the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) stands still in lonely isolation. Whether they did or not, let us at least get that straight, because I do not want there to be any misunderstanding, either. There will not be any massive repatriation; we are agreed about that. In other words, the 11 million people who are here are not to be repatriated and cannot be harassed into repatriation; we are agreed about that.
    Mr. Selwyn Gummer Mr. Selwyn Gummer (Lewisham, West) rose—
    Mr. Callaghan: I will not give way, because I have been rather long—[An HON. MEMBER: "Much too long."]—but they are all good points which I have made. There will not be any massive repatriation. The only people to whom
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    repatriation will apply will be the 4,000 a year who come here and who decide to return. I am glad that we have established that there will not be repatriation on any substantial basis.
    Let us think what the consequences are. I come now to a legal complication. I must take the House through it. It would be possible to pay the repatriation expenses of a Commonwealth citizen who did not register here after he had been here five years. In other words, if he said at the end of five years, "I do not choose to register as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies", he would be able to apply for expenses for repatriation purposes. A large number of them have already applied for registration and have become citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies. A large number have not.
    We will now present them with the choice. Either they now automatically register, as they have the right to do, as United Kingdom citizens, in which case they cannot be subject to repatriation at all and they become more firmly embedded here than ever, or they are not going to register, in which case there will be a circumstance in which they can claim their expenses.
    What the Home Secretary is doing by this is ensuring that a large number of Commonwealth citizens who have never before considered the advantages of registration will now think that it is about time that they automatically register, and nobody can deny them the right to do so. So we will have even more people firmly embedded in this country. All right; that is probably the best way in which we can get a decent community relationship so that they can feel secure here. But that was not the intention of the Bill; nor was it the intention of the repatriation Clause.
    I will pass over all the other things that I should like to say about the Bill. Before resuming my seat, however, I should like to say that I approve of what the Home Secretary said about an attempt to negotiate an agreement that would permit an increased number of Kenyan Asians who are British subjects to come here. If he can get any more of them here, and if that does not result in a general increase in immigration, I would believe that it was worth while doing. I

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    should like to have done it. I have always been conscious of the hardships to which many of the Kenyan Asians are subject, and I hope that the Home Secretary is successful in his negotiations.
    Mr. Selwyn Gummer: Humbug.
    Mr. Callaghan: I do not know why that should be thought to be humbug, but if the hon. Gentleman wishes to pursue the point I will give way.
    Mr. Selwyn Gummer: That statement about the East African Asians comes ill from the right hon. Gentleman, because many hon. Members on both sides of the House consider that the East African Asians were very shabbily dealt with by the right hon. Gentleman's Bill and by his Government.
    Mr. Callaghan: The present Home Secretary and I share an equal odium in this matter, because we both voted for that Bill, as did the great majority of Members on both sides of the House, because we both thought that it was a regrettable necessity—certainly I did. That has never altered my view that I should like to see an increase in the number of these people coming here if it could be achieved without endangering the total number of immigrants coming into this country. I thought that I was agreeing with the Home Secretary, and I did not expect to be challenged on that, because I do not want to embarrass the Home Secretary by agreeing with him if it provokes comments such as that.
    I also agree entirely with the Home Secretary about the Clause dealing with trafficking in illegal immigrants. This is a matter which we must follow up as much as we can.
    Finally, I must express my objection to the complete unbalance caused by the failure to concentrate on the urban rehabilitation programme. This was a child of the Labour Government. My right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. Harold Wilson) launched the idea when he was Prime Minister—decent housing, decent schooling, good amenities in the areas where they are most needed. Those happen to be mostly the areas where the coloured immigrants have settled.
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    In my view, this is the way, rather than by a Bill like this—a pinpricking and niggling Bill—in which we should deal with the problem of the immigrant, if indeed it is a problem of the immigrant and not a problem of the white population. The cries of the under-privileged are not stifled by a shabby Bill like this. One merely gives a badge of respectability to prejudice by a Bill of this nature.
    For the reasons that I have outlined, we shall vote against his niggling Bill tonight.
    5.26 p.m.
    Mr. J. Enoch Powell: The Bill is entitled "Immigration Bill", and its name does not belie it, for it is a Bill about immigration and not about citizenship. It is because what was necessary was, as the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) argued in the earlier part of his speech, a Bill about citizenship, and not a Bill amout immigration, that I fear this Bill will not correspond with the hopes of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary of achieving finality.
    All the difficulties out of which the Bill arises but to which it does not refer, and those which have been, which are and which are to come, flow from the fact that this country, alone I think of all countries, has never known in its law a status which defined its own people. We have never had a citizenship of the people of this country.
    So paradoxical is this, and so difficult even for those of us who know it to remember, that even my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary from time to time used the common expression "United Kingdom citizen", although there neither is, nor ever has been, such a thing in the law of this country.
    The only status which until 1948 was known was that of British subject, which we in this country shared with hundreds of millions thoughout the Empire. Yet even in the time of the Empire, even under Colonial administration, we were the only part of the British dominions which had no control over entry into and residence within its territories. Every other part of the British Empire controlled, and in many cases controlled strictly, the entry to it from outside of British subjects, including British subjects from this country.

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    Then, after the Second World War, it was obviously right and necessary that the great independent countries of what we were then coming to call exclusively the Commonwealth should make their own formal laws of citizenship. It was Canada that began it. Manifestly, it would soon be an anachronism for us, even here, to base our status upon the concept of British subject.
    We had a choice before us. Already in 1948 we could have given ourselves a citizenship—a means of defining ourselves, of recognising ourselves, a status—peculiar to the inhabitants of this realm. We did not. As the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East reminded the House, what we did was simply to transfer under other headings the existing body of British subjects. But still, although there were these new categories, these great citizenships of the independent countries, and that residual area designated "citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies", even so in the effective law of this country "British subject ", which did not distinguish between ourselves and those hundreds of millions, remained the only practical status. It was a breach between form and reality, between fiction and the real world, which grew ever more unacceptable as modern communications and the entirely different circumstances of the post-war years made it the means of a large and increasing influx into this country from the new Commonwealth.
    So with what has—at any rate retrospectively—come to be general agreement, we addressed ourselves to change our law. It might have been thought that then at last we would have given ourselves a citizenship, that at last we would have defined who we were, and thereafter decided under what conditions everyone else in the world would be free to enter this country or to reside here. Unfortunately, we did not. We adopted a different method. We said, instead, that "all British subjects who wish to enter and reside in the United Kingdom shall be subject to immigration control, except—". In short, we legislated by exception. So it comes about that my status today and that of, I suppose, almost all right hon. and hon. Members is that of "a British subject, citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by birth, to whom the provisions of the Commonwealth Immigrants
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    Act, 1962, as amended in 1968, do not apply." I must confess that, on the whole, I would rather be an Englishman.
    This Bill, after a further 10 years have elapsed, tackles the same issue again. Once again the opportunity, the chance, has come round. Once again we are shirking it. Once again we are proceeding by way of exception. Once again we are shying away from putting ourselves in the same position as any other nation, of being able to recognise ourselves, the people of this kingdom, for what we are. It is from the fact that this Bill still proceeds by exception, that it creates a general control and excepts a newly-defined category to which I will come in a moment, that a swarm of difficulties, only some of which have been touched upon so far in this debate, will follow, that anomalies and contradictions will arise which will be seen or felt to be intolerable, and that we in this House will find ourselves once again legislating upon this topic.
    Under this Bill the right of abode, the definition of that excepted class who are not controlled, goes with the definition of "patrial" in Clause 2. One might call it, for brevity, the "one-grandmother-qualifies" Clause; for although at least one grandparent born in the United Kingdom is not the sole qualification in Clause 2, it is in a sense the crucial qualification. Certainly it is the qualification which typifies so many of the problems and contradictions that will flow from this Bill if we pass it in its present form.
    We are told, "Surely it is right to admit to this country and to accept as belonging to it—as part of ourselves—those who have one or both parents, or one or both grandparents, born in this country". "Surely", we are asked, "that is a test of belonging?" But we are not applying that test of belonging consistently in this Bill. Here is an American citizen. He has one parent and four grandparents born in this country. He does not qualify. He is not patrial. Here is an Australian. It has been commonly assumed that Clause 2 is a provision which in some way takes account of what many of us feel—I amongst others, since it was Australia that gave me my first chance in life—to be the special relationship between this country and Australia and New Zealand. But when the Australians come to

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    examine Clause 2 and what it does, I am afraid that gratification will be replaced by irritation.
    Australia, in defining its own citizens, makes no difference between those who happen to have one grandparent born in this country and those who do not. Many of the most typical Australians, many of those Australians most bound by affection and loyalty to this country, of those Australians to whom, in that Australian term, this country is still "home", do not have even one grandparent who was born in this country. So the sheep who have at least one grandparent—a grandmother, perhaps—born in the United Kingdom will be separated at the point of entry, will be separated for purposes of their right of entry and residence in this country, from the goats, the rest of their Australian fellow citizens. I do not believe that that will be felt to be tolerable or just or reasonable.
    The right hon. Member for Cardiff, South East has already referred to another aspect of the rule "One grandparent qualifies". It will be known to many hon. Members that the Indian Railways were almost entirely staffed by what were formerly called Eurasians and in latter days were called Anglo-Indians. There must be tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands even, amongst those former or present employees and their children, who have at least one grandparent who was born in this country. So what we are saying is: so great is the significance of one grandparent alone being born in this country that that entire class in Asia, not only in India and not only amongst the former employees of the Indian railways, shall be put in quite a different category from all their fellow citizens in the countries from which they come. Again, I cannot believe that this can stand. I cannot believe that this will be regarded as rational or acceptable.
    The adjective "racialist" has gained a strange sort of currency in recent years and seems to wear all sorts of meanings. I have even once or twice heard it applied to myself. I accept that perhaps technically this is not a racialist provision—
    Mr. Bidwell: The right hon. Gentleman's figures are wrong.
    Mr. Powell: Did the hon. Gentleman say my figures were wrong?
    Mr. Bidwell Mr. Bidwell rose—
    Mr. Powell: The hon. Member can keep his seat, because whatever else I have been wrong about, I have not been wrong about the figures. I accept, with my right hon. Friend, that of course technically this provision is not racialist, since birth within the confines of the United Kingdom—
    "citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies by his birth in the United Kingdom"
    as is stated in Clause 2(1)(c),—is not limited to those of European or Aryan—or whatever one likes to call it—race or descent. I accent that. Nevertheless, in difference from the right hon. Gentleman, I happen to believe that a provision which attaches such importance and significance to even one-quarter—one grandparent—born in this country, that it confers the right of residence, abode, free entry into this country, which is the normal badge of native citizenship, will be seen and felt to be racial.
    In Nazi Germany there used to be the phrase, Grossmutter nicht in Ordnung, that is to say, "Grandmother not in order". It meant that, if there was one grandparent who was Jewish, whatever might be the other three quarters of a man's escutcheon, he would be subject to the restrictions, the discrimination and the persecution which were imposed upon that race. We, conversely, are saying that such is the magic of birth within this country that one quarter of such descent is sufficient to mark a man out from the rest of humanity and to make him one of us. I do not believe that such a notion, or, indeed, that legislation based upon such a notion, will appear tenable or will stand.
    This basic approach of the Bill has other grave consequences which also in course of time will be felt to be intolerable. We are here defining a class who will have the privilege of entry and residence in this country. For all the rest, we say that they must undergo probation for a period of years, whether they be British subjects or aliens. Only at the end of that period of probation, as it were, will they be accepted either as residents without restriction or, if they apply for citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies, as patrial. Yet within

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    this category, which has to undergo that probation, one section will have the franchise in this country immediately, while the other will not. The alien, after five years, will have to make good not merely his allegiance and loyalty, which is right, but his adequate knowledge of English, which is right again, in order to exercise the full rights of citizenship in this country.
    Will it be felt to be rational and tolerable that to those from the Commonwealth, to whom the same restrictions apply, and on whom the same requirements are imposed, as regards entry and as regards probation, we should say, "In your case, whether you know English or not, you vote immediately you come to this country"?
    I do not believe—this comes back to basic citizenship again—that one can tear one aspect of citizenship apart from another and give people pieces of it. Citizenship is whole. The badges of citizenship are, equally, the franchise and the right of free entry and residence. To attempt—and the Bill emphasises it—to tear them apart will be self-defeating.
    The extreme case here relates to the citizens of the Republic of Ireland, persons who protest with all their being and from all their history that they are not British subjects but are nevertheless in the United Kingdom accorded the franchise and treated as if they were such. I realise that is a matter largely outside the framework of the Bill, although I notice that there is in Clause 12 a provision, which I think right and necessary, which will enable the Government to impose control upon the land frontier of Northern Ireland. All the same, that is only an extreme instance of a general anomaly which will, I believe, turn out to be unacceptable in the long run—that to one set of people one half of citizenship is accorded and to the other set another half is accorded. I do not believe we can deal like that.
    So although I sympathise with my right hon. Friend's aspiration to finality—an aspiration to finality has periodically through history been voiced from the Treasury Bench, though rarely fulfilled—I am convinced that we shall soon again have to legislate, and legislate fundamentally.
    Mrs. Renée Short: The right hon. Gentleman referred to Clause 12, which,
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    he said, related to closing the frontier with Eire. [HON. MEMBERS: "Clause 10."] I understood the right hon. Gentleman to refer to Clause 12, and that deals with appeals. His figures are always wrong.
    Mr. Powell: if I was guilty of a slip of the tongue, I apologise to the House. I meant Clause 10, and it was to Clause 10 that I intended to refer. I give the hon. Lady the triumph to which she is entitled.
    Contrary to what, I believe, is widely supposed outside, my right hon. Friend has made no claim that the Bill will reduce the rate of net immigration from the new Commonwealth into this country. Whoever may be under that delusion, it is not my right hon. Friend's fault. He has been scrupulously careful both in what has been said in the past and in what he said at the Dispatch Box this afternoon not to claim that there will be any diminution in net immigration from the new Commonwealth as a result.
    Certainly, the provisions of the Bill will make it somewhat easier to prevent and to reverse illegal immigration. Certainly, they will somewhat improve the power of control over entry. Certainly—the right hon. Gentleman the former Home Secretary made this point good, and it is an important point—the Bill withdraws the statutory right of entry into this country for the dependants—wives and children up to 16—of new Commonwealth immigrants already resident here.
    The right hon. Gentleman is quite correct in that, and he is correct also in saying that, without alteration of that entry, no substantial reduction in net immigration is practicable in the early future. That is why I am on record as saying that, with net immigration running at a rate of 40,000 a year, plus X for illegal entry—though I myself have never overestimated the value of X as a factor in the total—I do not believe we are any longer justified in maintaining that privilege. Still, it was a perfectly clear undertaking of the Conservative Party officially at the election, although I made equally clear personally that I disagreed with it for those reasons.
    On the other hand, the effect of the patrial Clause will inevitably be to add a considerable number to the inflow of those from the new Commonwealth who would under present legislation have

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    been counted as immigrants. So whatever be the significance of number in this matter, the Bill cannot be claimed, and is not claimed, to be likely to have any appreciable effect—certainly not a downward effect—upon the rate of net immigration.
    However, net immigration, although 40,000 a year—approaching 500,000 in a decade—is not a detail, is not, as everyone knows, the heart of the problem either now or in the future. The only part of this Bill which relates, or can relate, to the true problem in the large is Clause 29, with the provisions for repatriation.
    The provision of help for those who wish to avail themselves of it to return to their countries has been an element of Conservative Party policy for the last seven years, ever since my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary as leader made it an official part of the policy of the Conservative Party. My right hon. Friend does not believe that it has any important application. He said in his interview accompanying the presentation of the Bill, and repeated it substantially today:
    "I do not believe that repatriation in practice can be on a substantial scale."
    I do not know what inquiry my right hon. Friend has made, upon which he bases that opinion. If he has made inquiry, if there are the results of research and inquiry behind that opinion, I respectfully submit to him that he should put them before the House.
    I agree that there has been no serious or thorough examination of this question. It is one which those who concern themselves with race relations and carry out investigations, voluminous investigations, of all kinds—of all other kinds—have never thought fit to make. Yet it does so happen that the few superficial tests which have been taken lead to a very different conclusion. As long ago as 1968 a newspaper survey found upwards of 20 per cent. willing to accept assistance with voluntary repatriation; a survey, a very sketchy one, commissioned by the B.B.C. at the end of 1968, showed 38 per cent.; and hon. Members will have noticed that there was published in The Times a week or two ago the result of an investigation, also a very narrow investigation, which showed that 36 per cent. of
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    young Indian immigrants, 27 per cent., I think it was, of West Indians, and 21 per cent. of Pakistanis look forward to re-emigration.
    Mr. Roy Hattersley: Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the possibility that that figure might well be inflated by the constant reiterations that some people do not welcome them here?
    Mr. Powell: Whatever the cause is, it is a serious matter how the Government form their view, and it is a serious matter for us to know what the grounds for their view are, about the scope for what has for seven years been an official part of the policy of this party.
    I would be the first to admit that all those indications, and many other opinions which well-qualified people have expressed from time to time, are extremely superficial, but what I say to my right hon. Friend is that he has no justification for making the assumption with which he accompanied the publication of the Bill.
    I would say more. Both from what he said then and from what he said today I believe there is a disposition to administer, as well as to draw, the provision in the Bill in a very restrictive manner. I have to tell him that if that were so, it would be at variance with what has been said to the country on behalf of this party over recent years. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said at Ipswich in 1967:
    "Those immigrants and their families who wish to return home should be given every assistance to do so."
    At Walsall in January, 1969, describing problems of immigrants disappointed in their expectations of life in Britain, he said:
    "They will wish to return to their countries of origin. We promise them generous assistance if they wish to do so."
    Nobody who listened to what the Conservative Party has said on this subject, both during the General Election and in the years before, could have supposed that there was any intention to limit the availability of assistance for any immigrant who voluntarily applied for it. Such a limitation would therefore in effect be a serious breach of what was understood to be the undertaking of this party when it went to the electorate. If my right hon. Friend administers these provisions in a

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    restrictive manner, he will incur a grave responsibility.
    Mr. T. L. Iremonger: Will my right hon. Friend allow me—
    Mr. Powell: I am about to finish; I have been speaking for a long time, and I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me for not giving way. I wish to conclude precisely on that word "responsibility". Violent, bitter and personal though the differences of judgment may be in this House both about the nature and the future of the underlying problem, in this at any rate I believe we are at one, in recognising that what we do in legislation of this sort, in what we do on this whole matter, we are responsible not just for a Parliament, not just to the present, but to future generations.
    It is my belief that in the aspect of this party's policy which finds its place in the Bill in Clause 29 there is a seed and germ of hope for the future. What I ask of my right hon. Friend and of the Government—I appeal to them—is not to tread down that seed and not to extinguish that hope. It is not I alone who appeal for this; it is the people of England themselves.
    5.56 p.m.
    Mr. Arthur Bottomley: The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) carries a heavy responsibility for this ill-considered Bill. We are witnessing a political manoeuvre, an exercise in public relations, to try to contain the pressures of the right hon. Gentleman.
    In debates like this I have always associated the Home Secretary with the late Jain Macleod. But the right hon. Gentleman disappointed me today. I wonder whether we should have had this Bill if Iain Macleod had been in the Cabinet.
    The Home Secretary has said that he wants the Bill to be definitive, and I believe him to be firm in his aspirations. But already he has heard from the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West that it is not to be so. When a lesser light becomes Conservative Home Secretary and the pressures are on the Tory Party, the country will be saddled with Powellism whether it likes it or not.
    When my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary in the last Administration said
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    that there should be a Select Committee to consider race relations and immigration, and I learnt that the right hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes) was to be on the Commitee with me, I sought him out and suggested that together we should accept this challenge, that we should do everything possible to try to create a situation in which we could have good race relations, to study the facts and be objective. I am very glad to say that the other 14 members of the Committee shared those views. Together we worked first on the problem of the coloured school leavers, because upon the way in which we treat them, and how they act, depends whether we shall have good relations in the future.
    That Committee, although having varying views and opinions, unanimously presented to the Government of the day 40 recommendations. The Government accepted them where they could, and where they were appropriate to other bodies, like the employers' organisations and the trade unions, the Government urged them to adopt the suggestions.
    The Committee then went on to immigration controls. We were able to satisfy ourselves that they were working fairly and efficiently. Currently, under the chairmanship of the right hon. Member for Ashford we are looking at the housing problem. That Committee had considerable expertise, because we went to tile countries concerned to see where the immigrants came from, as well as studying the problems with those technically knowledgeable and with the experts. One would have thought that the Select Committee might have been given an opportunity to express a view about the Bill.
    It was the intention of the last Government that, at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference, there should be a talk about migration policy to see how evasions could be stopped and how we could bring about a system acceptable to the Commonwealth as a whole. The Commonwealth Secretariat might have been asked to establish some machinery to consider this and in due course give advice to the Government. I believe that if this had been done we would have had a Bill which could have been supported by the whole House.
    We have to ask why we have this problem. It is because after the war we

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    were short of labour and employers pressed the Government of the day to let in immigrant labour. The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, whether he likes it or not, carries some responsibility in this respect. Our hospitals could not have been manned had we not recruited staff overseas. So we brought these people into our country to serve our purpose. I remember that, at the time, Mr. Norman Manley, that great Jamaican leader, protested that we were taking from his country skilled labour that was needed. Then, the West Indians, Asians and Africans, many of whom had helped us in the war, came again to help us overcome our economic ills. It is a poor reward to them to suggest that they should be treated as anything less than decent Commonwealth citizens.
    I recall what happened at the turn of the century. We had an immigration problem then, with immigrants coming from Eastern Europe. Then, too, people expressed the same kind of views as are now expressed by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West. But what did we find in the end? Those immigrants brought with them skills which added to the development of our country. To the city, the textile industry, the furniture trade and others they brought attributes which helped to make our country economically stronger than it might otherwise have been.
    Do not let us despise the new immigrants. They have their contributions to make to the study, culture and accomplishments of this land. I give one illustration. The Select Committee visited a school in Wolverhampton. A class of about 20 boys was studying mathematics. Who were at the top of that class? The Asians. Asians are mathematically-minded and in this computer age we want that kind of skill. But it also had another effect. The British boys were so shocked to find that they were doing less well than their Asian colleagues that they put on a spurt and did even better. So again this new immigration influx can be beneficial to the country and should not be underrated.
    The Select Committee is studying housing at the moment. In doing so, we realise the intolerable burden we place upon local authorities. In this city of
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    Westminster last week, I went into a house where there was one room split into two. In part of it was a Welsh lady from Cardiff and her husband, a Pakistani. She is an informed girl—not one who can be dismissed easily. She as four children. Two of them are in Pakistan with grandparents and another is in Cardiff with grandparents. It is bad enough for her to have half a room in which to look after the child she has with her. She is denied the opportunity of looking after the other three children who she would love to have living with her. In the other half of the room were two beds shared by two men. The cooking facilities were in a corner of the room.
    I say that this sort of thing is shocking. It would have been more worthy of the Government if they had remembered not only their election pledges but the pledges they made when in Opposition. I quote what the Conservative Shadow Cabinet said on 21st February, 1968:
    "The Central Government must co-ordinate and be prepared to support financially special housing, welfare and educational programmes adminstered by the local authorities."
    If the Government had concentrated on that instead of bringing in this wretched Bill, they would have made a major contribution to the improvement of race relations.
    The Home Secretary has explained that, when the Bill becomes law, the majority of newcomers to Britain will be non-patrial, with no right of settlement. They will have to register with the police and will require permission to do a specific job. I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman got the same reply from his officials as the Select Committee did. I see the hon. Member for Dorking (Sir G. Sinclair) in his place. At a meeting with Home Office officials, he put a question about the work of the police in tracing sponsors and relatives of immigrants. The Home Office witness replies:
    "All of us are reluctant to ask the police to do this work, both because of the heavy burden of work already on the police and because of our dislike of inquiries of this kind being made by police officers."
    Thus, evidence given to the Select Committee only a short time ago is now dismissed by the Government. I cannot believe that the officials have changed their minds. The Police Federation has

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    not been asked about this. I have complained that the Committee was not consulted; at least the Police Federation might have been consulted.
    To restrict immigrants to certain jobs is neither fair nor efficient. There is the difficulty of identifying the new immigrants, of distinguishing them from earlier immigrants. The system will not prevent evasion but in many ways will extend it. There will be attempts to evade the controls. Again I quote what the Home Office witness told the Committee. He said that such controls
    "…would be costly to enforce and even then likely to be ineffective, and would be harmful to community relations."
    Right hon. and hon. Members will have seen the Marplan report in The Times recently. Marplan carried out a survey among young immigrants and the conclusions are very relevant to the Government's proposal for repatriation. Of the young Indian immigrants who were questioned, 36 per cent. were planning to return to their own country to make their careers there. So were 27 per cent. of the young West Indians and 21 per cent. of the young Pakistanis questioned. The survey also showed that only one immigrant among those not planning to go back at all would consider an assisted passage. So it is doubtful whether assisted repatriation would make much difference to the numbers returning to their countries of origin.
    When estimating the future coloured population of Britain, it is important to remember the numbers who are going back home. The myth that immigrants still continue to arrive in overwhelming numbers is demolished by the official figures. They show, for example, that migration from Jamaica has gone into reverse and that ever-increasing numbers are leaving Britain. That the Bill is racist, I have no doubt. It gives preference to patrials and is biassed in favour of white people—allowing the Irish in has the same effect. By thinking coloured people in Britain, the Bill is seen as hypocritical. Many radical coloured people are disillusioned and beginning to lose faith with Parliament and other institutions.
    The Times Marplan Survey confirmed that the seeds of a potentially dangerous racial situation exist in Handsworth and
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    other parts of Birmingham where young West Indians were sampled. That is obvious from the extent to which they have already lost faith in fair treatment from the police, the courts and the Race Relations Board. The survey adds to growing evidence of the alienation of young West Indians in Handsworth and elsewhere.
    That is why it is so important that there should be no innovation which increases that alienation. The word itself is significant. The Government's very proposals are to treat coloured immigrants as aliens when they seek work in this country. "Alienation" is thus to be written into the law. Thus Government action will contribute to alienation and insecurity and will have the effect of making the most lurid prophecies of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West come true.
    It would be much more profitable to consider what line a positive community relations policy could take. I should like to take this opportunity as a past Chairman of the Select Committee on Race Relations and Immigration to pay tribute to those devoted people who have done so much to try to promote racial harmony.
    Of those who were questioned during the Marplan Survey, 27 per cent. of Indians, 31 per cent. of West Indians and 30 per cent. of Pakistanis thought that race relations in this country were getting better. The reason for this was thought to be mainly better understanding resulting from the host community becoming more accustomed to the immigrants' presence.
    There is a healthy and significant and in some ways surprising number of young immigrants who recognise the tendency within their groups to exaggerate the discrimination which they suffer. The Times survey shows that the overwhelming majority of young immigrants interviewed were in favour of integration. We should do our best to encourage them. Unfortunately, more young immigrants questioned in the survey believed that race relations were getting worse than who believed that they were improving. An overwhelming number blamed the speeches of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West

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    as being the biggest single reason for this.
    The right hon. Gentleman talked about the need to protect those born in this country for the future. Does he think that by encouraging this racial enmity, as he does by his speeches, he is making it more likely that in future immigrants will feel friendly towards the bulk of the people? Does he think that he will encourage the creation of harmony?
    It is not this country alone. The world position is changing. White supremacy is here no longer. The coloured peoples are building up their economic standards and seeking security and they want to play their part in world affairs. On how we treat the coloured people today depends how they treat our children in future.
    For that reason, the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West does a disservice to his own cause. I hope that many hon. Members opposite tonight, if they cannot vote against the Bill, will at least have the courage of their convictions and abstain.
    6.14 p.m.
    Mr. John Hunt: I start by applauding the admirably moderate and sensible speech of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, but also by taking issue with him on one major matter. It is my belief that the first priority in the debate is to strip away the pretence and the illusion which in part my right hon. Friend helped to foster, the pretence that the Bill is not racially discriminatory and the illusion that somehow this will not be noticed by coloured people in this country and overseas.
    Whether we use the words "new Commonwealth", "tropical", or "non-pa trial", what we mean is those born with black or brown faces. It will enhance the honesty and credibility of our debate if that fact is freely and frankly acknowledged from the start. It is possible in some circumstances to justify control of immigration on a racial basis. What cannot possibly be justified is the euphemistic pretence that nothing is further from one's mind than discrimination of this kind.
    This is not the first immigration Bill to be based on a deliberate policy of racial discrimination. The 1968 Act,
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    which was introduced and implemented by the Labour Government, was a particularly blatant example of that, and it was made worse by the cynical breaking of Britain's word to those Asians in East Africa who had acquired United Kingdom passports. While I have the greatest respect for Labour Members who have been thoroughly consistent in these matters, I have some feeling of contempt for those who, having supported the 1968 Act, now hurl accusations of racialism at my right hon. Friend.
    At this point let me make it clear that I give my general support to the Bill, because there is an important distinction between the Bill and the 1968 Act, which I opposed. One important distinction is that in the Bill there is no question of Britain breaking her word. The rights of immigrants already here will be virtually unaffected. Everyone has had clear and ample notice of the Government's intentions and in future immigrants will know in advance the conditions attached to their stay in this country.
    The Bill has its origins in the election manifestos of our party, not only in the last election but in the 1966 election, when we foreshadowed a conditional entry system. In the 1970 manifesto we pledged that our policies would ensure that there would be no further large-scale permanent immigration. Those who have followed the figures know that the trend of immigration over recent years has been steadily downwards. The number admitted for settlement in 1970 was, with the exception of the East African Asians, less than 30,000. That is to be compared with 53,000 in 1968 and no fewer than 136,000 in 1961. The fall has been sharp and I see from the figures that it is continuing.
    But an important fact which has to be grasped is that the argument is not only statistical but psychological, that it is a question of immigration not only being effectively checked but being seen to be effectively checked. That is why it is important to realise that the provisions of the Bill for conditional entry and, most important, for tightening control of illegal entry are important not so much for the net reduction in numbers which will result as for the reassurance which the measures will bring to those, particularly in our large cities, who feel themselves in

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    danger of being swamped and overwhelmed.
    Happily in many ways there are signs that this is already a receding fear. Perhaps this explains the somewhat significant change of tactics in what I would loosely call the "Anti-Immigrant Lobby". Talk is not now so much of the new numbers coming in but of horrific projections of future coloured populations based, in my view, on calculations often hypothetical and misleading.
    This leads me to deal specifically with the question of repatriation. Unlike my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), I was particularly pleased to hear the references which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary made to repatriation in his statement on First Reading and echoed in his words today. He went on record as stating quite clearly that in his view repatriation could never be on a substantial scale and that any attempt to achieve it might in itself be damaging to community relations. I applaud and support that view.
    It is important to remember that last year fewer than 150 people were voluntarily repatriated from Britain. It is a dangerous delusion to imagine that any significant number of immigrants will be likely to respond to an offer of assisted repatriation. Why should they? They came here, leaving the warmth and sunshine of their homelands for precisely the same reason as so many of our fellow countrymen go to Australia, Canada and New Zealand—to seek a better life for themselves and their families. They were responding to the very same free market forces as in every other context my hon. and right hon. Friends seem so anxious to encourage. Even with the offer of£1,000 or£2,000 to return to their homelands, I believe that they are unlikely to return to countries where the annual income is£30 per head, when they are earning£30 a week or more in the factories of Bradford and other parts of the country.
    There are two specific points of detail in the Bill which cause me concern. First, I should like to add my voice to those which have been urging the Home Secretary to think again about requiring new immigrants to register with the police. There has been almost unanimous opposition to this proposal—
    Mrs. Jill Knight: No.
    Mr. Hunt: We have not heard many views to the contrary so far. Perhaps my hon. Friend will have an opportunity. From the evidence so far it seems that most people would agree that it is undesirable that registration should be with the police. Indeed the Police Federation also shares that view. We have to remember that many immigrants will live in close, compact communities and that they would feel embarrassed about reporting to a police station in the way envisaged in the Bill, even if it is only once a year.
    Mr. Percy Grieve: Accepting for one moment that the registration proposals of themselves are valid and acceptable, does my hon. Friend think that any other Ministry or Department is more apt to accept registration than the police?
    Mr. Hunt: I would accept either the Employment Exchanges or the suggestion made by the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), namely, the Department of Health and Social Security. Either of these alternatives should be considered. There is the additional alternative, registering at the town hall. Any of these would be preferable to the suggestion of registration with the police.
    On the question of deportation, I do not in any way quarrel with our right to deport those who abuse our hospitality by indulging in criminal activities. I am sure that it is in the best interests of community relations as a whole for these people to be sent home. One aspect which disturbs me is the proposal to ensure that when a man is deported, his wife and children under 18 should go with him. I ask the Home Secretary to be flexible with this provision. We should remember that with West Indian families it is often the mother who is the dominant figure in the household. She is likely to have a greater influence over the family than the father. If the father goes off the rails, it is unfair to deport mother and children when she may very well be capable of maintaining a home for herself and her children.
    Mr. Nicholas Scott: Perhaps my hon. Friend would consider the situation in which a husband may have gone off the rails and the wife

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    has left the matrimonial home and set up a home elsewhere with the children. She may be living a respectable life, and in those circumstances it would be unfair that she should be liable for deportation.
    Mr. Hunt: I support that view and my hon. Friend's apprehension. I hope that that will induce the Government to think again about the proposal.
    Mr. Norman St. John-Stevas: Quite apart from the practical argument, is it not a blatant example of sex discrimination? Why should a woman be made responsible for the crimes of her husband? Will not the net result of this be that the Home Secretary will have the Women's Liberation Front upon him?
    Mr. Hunt: I know my hon. Friend's interests in sexual matters but I do not want to be diverted at this point. Providing the Bill is administered with sympathy and humanity, it can make a contribution to better race relations by allaying the fears of white people and thereby improving the climate in which so many black people have to live and work.
    It is, as the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bottomley) said, already possible to detect some improvement in the race relations climate in spite of all the strains and tensions of recent years. Coloured staff are now being accepted almost without question and notice in retail stores and offices throughout the country. Slowly but surely we are all becoming colour blind. I have always maintained that the best cure for a racialist is to be confined, just for a week or two, in one of our hospitals and to be tended by a young nurse from Jamaica or Guyana. Such people find that their prejudices and misconceptions about coloured people melt and mellow amid the care and compassion given by the coloured nurses.
    My final and fervent hope, and here I share the expectation of the Home Secretary, is that this Bill will be the last of its kind to be placed before the House for many years. I believe that it will succeed in its aim of controlling and containing the problem of coloured immigrants. I hope that from now on Parliament and politicians alike will devote their energies to more constructive tasks, to the building of bridges rather than to the construction of check-points and control
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    posts. There is no doubt in my mind that the poison of race hatred can undermine and infect the very fabric of our national life and of our nation. Therefore, I beg my right hon. Friend to ensure that the standard of tolerance and decency for which he is rightly known and respected will be reflected in his implementation of this regrettably restrictive, but undeniably necessary Bill.
    6.30 p.m.
    Mr. Sydney Bidwell: I sought to intervene in the speech of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) to challenge his statement that he had been called a racialist only once or twice. In fact, he has been called a racialist on a much greater number of times.
    I paid rapt attention throughout his speech, but it was only in his concluding remarks that he turned, in a fundamental way, to the theme which he first expressed in demagogic speeches outside the House but seldom expresses in speeches inside the House. Whatever we might say about this quaint old place, we cannot get away with demagogy, or lurid stories about wide-grinning piccanninies or human excreta through the letter boxes, because that is now old hat and racialist folk-lore piffle, and the whole nation realises it. To give some credibility to his very long speech, the right hon. Gentleman had to make fun of the Bill which, as has been pointed out from this side of the House, panders to his ideas.
    I read today's leading article in The Times—the paper for the top people which is still paid considerable attention, perhaps more than the Morning Star. The opening sentence of the article states:
    "The question before the House of Commons today when it debates the second reading of the Immigration Bill is in effect whether this Measure is a harmless political gesture or one with dangers."
    That assessment of the Bill is correct. But what a question to be occupying the time of the House! The Bill is not concerned with citizenship which, admittedly, needs to be looked into. The question of uniting the two means of assessing rights of people who have come to work in this country under alien terms or Commonwealth terms is in the melting pot and needs to be considered.
    My right hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Bottomley)

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    was formerly Chairman and is now Vice-Chairman of the Select Committee on Race Relations and Immigration which is doing and will continue to do later this week hard work on the question of housing for immigrants. This is precisely the kind of all-party discussion and expert examination which, if it had proceeded along the lines logically set by the Labour Government, would eventually have produced sensible proposals whereby there would have been modification and changes made. I have not lost all hope of that, although I freely describe the Bill as nasty and dangerous and, on the premise of much of what has been said by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, needlessly foolish at this time. We have not yet entered the Common Market or wound up the Commonwealth.
    I tried to find the word "patrial" in a dictionary which I have at home, but I could not do so. I then looked for it in dictionaries in the Library of the House. Eventually the staff found it for me. The literal definition of "patrial" is "a native of one's country". How one can stretch that to mean a relationship with a grandchild, I do not know. I shall try to show later why use of this word is extremely foolish. I thought that it might be what I have described as "a bit of Hogg-wash". The Lord Chancellor, who led for the Opposition when the Labour Party was in office, expressed himself from time to time as being apprehensive about the restrictions which he considered to be needless on people who came from Australia, New Zealand and Canada. He told us a story about an Australian actress friend and he seemed to be upset by the fact that certain restrictions had been imposed on her and that she had had to go out of the country after a six-months visit.
    As my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) explained, it is absolute nonsense that the grandchildren of people born here, who may be deported under the new arrangements because it is considered that they are guilty of some misdeed which warrants deportation, will eventually have the right of absolutely free entry to the United Kingdom without establishing that they have a job to come to.
    The Government have got themselves into a horrible mess by trying to bend
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    to the pressures of what has become amorphously known in the Tory Party and in the country as "Powellism". Although it is receding, it still exists. As the Member for Southall with a huge concentration of people from, in the main, the Punjab, I never lose an opportunity to talk about the wonderful way in which the bulk of the indigenous population in areas like mine has responded to the challenge. But it has not been done without headaches and tears. It has not been done without bitterness in large areas of terraced housing where people have to live close to each other and where there is overcrowding, not simply in individual households but in areas. Only a very few people are able to buy or rent a house. However, as time goes on, that situation must improve.
    I do not wish to keep from the House the anxieties of people bred and born in these areas on matters about which we were very apprehensive in 1962 when my hon. Friends tended to take a starry-eyed view. I was not then a Member. There was some substance in the opposition because it involved the Irish question. Many people, not being so experienced as they are now, saw this as a colour discrimination.
    One has to consider how the Bill will work. My right hon. Friend the Member or Middlesbrough, East referred to the work of the Select Committee on Race Relations and Immigration. One of the most profound things that was said in the Select Committee's initial report about the coloured school leavers was that the onus for meeting the challenge of the coloured youngster was on the indigenous population. Our problems have to be measured by that simple assertion. The bulk of the community, the host community as it is described, has to set up the conditions under which coloured people can live happily. The dangers arise not with the aliens or the white immigrants but with the coloured people—they are the people who are fearful. There is now a new generation of young coloured people walking our streets. They are got at by Black Power, which is an import from America, but it is not accepted by most intelligent coloured people. Indian youngsters do not regard themselves as coloured, and it is difficult to tell the difference between young Indians with light skins, who sometimes

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    have Cockney or "Brummagem" accents, and our indigenous youngsters. These are the people we are talking about and it is to them that we must relate the provisions of the Bill about police powers.
    I have enormous respect for the hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. Hunt). He has stood steadfastly on the concept of equality of opportunity, and his record outside the House in this regard shows how actively concerned he is. I am sad to hear him say that he intends to vote for the Bill in spite of his reservations about it. The hon. Member for Bromley did not like the idea of extending police powers. If police powers are extended, who will do the policing? Will it be the traffic wardens? It is no accident that the police gibbed at this long before the Bill was in preparation.
    The Bill flies in the face of the evidence before the Select Committee. During the debate on the extension of the Select Committee system I pleaded with the Leader of the House to convey to his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary my anxiety that the Government should rethink the necessity to deal with this matter in Bill form. I said that it was putting the cart before the horse. If the Select Committee had been set up again it could have looked at alien immigration and advised the Home Secretary on the substantive difference between the normal pattern of alien immigration and Commonwealth immigration.
    In our studies we saw that in Bedford there was a considerable Italian population and that there were disappointments within that community about citizens' rights. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East said, aliens and single people without family responsibilities come to these shores with work permits on a short-term basis. Many of them are brought into this country by foreign firms, and every weekend they go back to their country of origin on a commuter basis. This is a very different pattern.
    The Bill does not mean that one day we shall not have a single system of work permits and honour the right of children to join the breadwinner on the freest possible terms. It does not mean that we shall not liberalise the alien terms of entry and that we shall not extend citizens' rights in a much shorter period than
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    under the present aliens law. By the same token, it is not off the cards that we shall tidy up and dispense with the labour voucher system and achieve unification, so that the two categories are brought together in the best possible way.
    There could never be absolutely free entry into Britain, but there is a distinct difference between the terms of entry of coloured immigrants and white immigrants, and the Bill does nothing to alleviate the fears of the coloured immigrants. I am glad that so many hon. Members wish to take part in the debate. It shows a unanimity of opposition in the Labour ranks which I welcome.
    I welcome the assurances given by the Home Secretary that he will keep an open mind on this problem and look carefully at any Amendments. It may be that in the end we shall make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I hope that the Standing Committee will consist of experts. Many hon. Members have greater experience than the civil servants in the Home Office on these matters, although I commend their rejection of these ideas when they were giving evidence before the Select Committee. We may in the end produce a Bill which is worthy of the British people and of their belief that all citizens must be treated alike, regardless of colour, and that this must apply also to those who enter Britain.
    6.50 p.m.
    Mr. W. F. Deedes: The Bill is having a rough ride. I share the view of the hon. Member for Southall (Mr. Bidwell) that we shall have an interesting Committee stage. Some of the things that I heard said today took me back nine years—to 1962. I must also add that I remember who was right on that occasion. I do not share the views expressed by the former Home Secretary or by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell). I believe that the Bill will be more far-reaching in its effects than has yet been suggested. By discouraging settlement it will discourage entry. It may well create conditions—and this is already being said in criticism by some people—in which some immigrants will prefer to leave rather than to remain here.
    I say bluntly that I regard this as a restrictive Bill. I believe that a mistake is being made in trying to generalise

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    about repatriation. The Pakistanis, the Indians, and those from the Caribbean will all have differing views about the subject, and will all act differently. Polls which do not distinguish clearly the intentions of immigrants from these respective countries will be wrong. Whatever the Home Secretary's intentions may be, in my opinion the number of immigrants who will seek repatriation will be higher than the House now supposes.
    Assuming that I am right, it is fair to question some aspects of the Opposition's attitude today. From the time, in 1964, when the Opposition first became acquainted with the facts—and all credit to them for this—they pursued progressively more restrictive policies. The White Paper of 1965 was the starting point of an effective immigration policy. The 1962 Measure certainly was not. The Act of 1968, which produced the entry certificate in 1969, came after that.
    In my view, the then Government were absolutely right. They pursued these policies not simply in the interests of this country but in the interests of community relations and the immigrants themselves. If the Opposition accept my view that this is a more restrictive Measure than some think, they will also see it as being not inconsistent with the policies which they pursued in those years.
    But the justification for the Bill does not lie in what the Opposition did or did not do when in Government—or even in the election pledges. The Bill stands or falls by the assertion of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary—repeated here today—that yet tighter immigration policies are needed if we are successfully to concentrate on the urgent problems now facing us. That is as much in the immigrants' interests as in our own. I see that as the crux of the matter.
    In terms of what is being done in areas where most immigrants have settled, we are taking much too much for granted. I am not speaking about the fears that exist among the members of our population. I do not propose to discuss them; they are not immediately important. I am talking about facts, and what is actually being done in the areas where most immigrants have settled. There is far too little realisation of the stresses and strains that large concentrations of immigrants are still imposing in
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    these areas. Whether or not hon. Members agree with me, I totally reject the fallacious and, I think, dangerous conventional wisdom propagated by some, that the presence of immigrants is only one facet in the overall cycle of deprivation, inadequate housing, social neglect, and so on. If we believe that, we shall fail to solve some of the problems facing us. It is not true, and it is self-deception to pretend, that the presence of immigrants—particularly the younger ones—does not give rise to certain urgent social problems, which must be met. These problems arise particularly in respect of houses and schools.
    We have over-persuaded ourselves—or have been over-persuaded—that such recognition is so inimical to community relations that we should not even quantify the problem. I am alarmed by the total ignorance that exists among local authorities of the extent of the problem that they have on their hands. Many have convinced themselves that it is totally wrong to keep separate figures which will enable them to know the extent of the problem. It has become contrary to public policy to know and state the facts. That is a very dangerous situation—dangerous to us, dangerous to community relations and, above all, dangerous to the immigrant—because it leads us grossly to under-rate what needs to be done.
    I am thinking particularly of what we call the second generation. It seems insufficiently grasped, in the context of the Bill, that more new immigrant babies were born last year in this country than the total number of new immigrants. No fewer than 51,000 Commonwealth babies were born—10,000 from mixed unions—against a total of under 30,000 immigrants. We are entering a new sphere, where the young become very important. The number of Commonwealth babies born last year was nearly double the number of dependants who entered.
    Those who lament the restrictive effects of the Bill should more completely inform themselves of the social duties that are now being imposed upon—the load that is now rightly being carried by—those cities where the immigrants have settled. I grow impatient with some theorists on race relations who forever accuse local authorities of complacency, neglect, and even discrimination. I share the views of

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    the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Bottomley) in paying tribute to the many public servants in local authorities who fulfil the thankless task involved in meeting the consequences of policies of successive Governments—policies for which they were not responsible. It is they who are having to meet the consequences of policies pursued by successive governments. The thankless task that they are fulfilling should be acknowledged. Fewer ignorant criticisms should be made of some of their activities.
    Dr. M. S. Miller: Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that the babies to whom he has referred, born in this country, are immigrants? Surely they are British citizens. If they are British citizens, it is up to us, as other British citizens, to make the going for them. It is not for them to have to prove anything to us.
    Mr. Deedes: The hon. Member leads into my next remark. Although we lack facts about the situation—and we are deliberately keeping the facts from ourselves—we can form certain impressions. My impression is that we are not keeping abreast of the social needs which past policies have created. I give only one example of what I mean. The number of immigrant children of below school entry age is large, and increasing. This is the second generation, in which we repose many hopes—and many of that generation rightly repose great hopes in themselves.
    How many of these children—the Asian children in particular—will be handicapped in the early stages, or even throughout their education, by the language barrier? Hon. Members would be shocked and surprised to know how many of these children are disadvantaged by the language barrier. How many of these children, including 10,000 last year, from mixed marriages—I use that term because it is likely to mean an unstable association, and the children of such union may themselves be unstable—will be handicapped in their schooling?
    How far have we shaped our educational framework to cope with the problems that are arising? The Department of Education and Science has taken care to blur the figures and has brought in a
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    rule which precludes our knowing how many we are dealing with, but it is at least clear that the problem is much more serious than it was five years ago.
    An immense challenge to nursery schools and day nurseries, to every kind of institution for children before school entry, is being presented but it not being met, and we are not providing the means to meet it. In the decade before us, that spells trouble and perhaps a large number of tragedies.
    I urge hon. Gentlemen, in considering the Bill, which probably has more restrictive consequences than many now suppose, not to allow themselves or others to push their heads into the sand concerning the facts.
    I venture to say that the Home Secretary will do well to accompany the Bill with a fresh appraisal of the task which confronts us here and now. The world, which is so apt to be critical of what we fail to do, should know more about it. My right hon. Friend should assert to his Ministerial colleagues and to the local authorities that to know and to state the facts is not racist—it is absolutely essential—provided that proper social provision is made. To conceal those facts is folly.
    My right hon. Friend rightly feels that the main debt which we owe is to those now here. I understand that that is the spirit behind the Bill. My right hon. Friend should reject the thinking of some race relations professionals that if our own population were to know how big that debt is, they would repudiate and reject it. I do not believe that they would. However, the people of this country will not forgive a Government who conceal these facts. My right hon. Friend should, therefore, take steps to ensure that the forthcoming census provides us with a more adequate basis of knowledge than its disastrous predecessor in 1966.
    The Bill will give my right hon. Friend and ourselves a breathing space—a chance to get to grips with the formidable task which we now have. My right hon. Friend should bear in mind that for many here and now, especially the youngest among them, it will be our last chance.
    Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The right hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes) has managed to make his speech, despite an intervention, in twelve minutes. I hope that that example will be followed by other hon. Members.
    7.2 p.m.
    Mr. Peter Shore: I say straight away to the right hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes) that I do not think that anyone on this side of the House—certainly not right hon. and hon. Members representing areas of stress due to concentrations of immigrants—has any tendency to minimise or underestimate the scale of the problem and the need for the Government to assist local authorities and others to meet the problems which undoubtedly arise. If this is the right hon. Gentleman's major concern, and if he is going to urge on his right hon. Friends on the Front Bench that they should put more money and resources into educational priority areas, housing priority areas and the urban programme which my right hon. Friends pushed forward three years ago, he will get the full support of right hon. and hon. Members on this side.
    I speak as a Member for a constituency which has overcrowding, congestion and a substantial immigrant community faced with all the problems which confront us. But, having said that, if the right hon. Gentleman imagines that the Bill will ease the situation by acting more tightly upon new immigrants, then he is deceiving himself. The right hon. Gentleman is the first victim. The Home Secretary has bagged or shot his first fox, or whatever one does; he has got his first man tonight.
    For the rest, the Home Secretary must have been very disappointed. The right hon. Gentleman has attempted to convince a large number of hon. Members about various features of the Bill, but they have not been convinced at all.
    I remind the Under-Secretary of State of what the Home Secretary has set out, or so he told us, to achieve in the Bill. The Home Secretary has said that he wants to improve community relations. I shall have a few words to say about that later. The Home Secretary has said that he wants to provide a logical, definitive and lasting solution to the problems of immigration into this country not just for now but stretching out into the future. I
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    shall deal with that point, too, in a few moments. The right hon. Gentleman also said that he wanted to remove the fear of mass immigration again into Britain.
    I start with the last of those purposes first: to stop the fear of mass immigration. It is not an unworthy aim. If people are still worried and do not know what the right hon. Member for Ashford already knows—that effective control was first instituted in 1965 by the Labour Government—and if there is a need for the Bill, then let them be told that the Government intend to have firm control. I shall not object to firm control.
    The Home Secretary did not convince his right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), because it was he and others who spoke who began to bring to our minds a picture of millions of people who would qualify for admission without any restriction on numbers or on work permits under the new patrial Clause. The Home Secretary was not very successful in allaying that anxiety.
    I turn now to the Home Secretary's desire to improve community relations as the first and foremost purpose. The right hon. Gentleman has been in great difficulty on this point, for very good reason. Indeed, in his opening speech the Home Secretary had to correct a major misprint or error in the draft Immigration Rules which accompanied the Bill. I hope that the Under-Secretary will pass on to the right hon. Gentleman that I believe that he has done a lot of damage already in the bungling way in which he has handled the Bill. If what the Home Secretary said today is true, if it is true that he is not imposing new conditions which will undermine the rights and the status of people already in this country, then he has bungled his public relations in a way which should make him feel ashamed and which will undoubtedly have bad consequences in this country.
    When we think about it, there is an obvious explanation why there is so much confusion. We have had a Bill and two documents describing methods of control. We had those ten days ago. Since then we have done our best to understand the Bill and its complicated provisions. But there was no White Paper, no statement of principle or purpose, and no argument presented to the House so that we could consider and see whether the

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    major problems and issues were being dealt with and argued thoroughly. All we had was a pretty thin speech, thin philosophy, from the Home Secretary this afternoon. If people in the immigrant communities are worried, as I know them to be worried, then the Home Secretary has a duty to make a serious effort to communicate the truth about the Bill if his intention is so beneficient as he told us earlier today.
    I could develop at great length and in considerable detail the anxieties which I know are felt in the immigrant communities in this country over various provisions in the Bill. The only reason I refrain from doing so is that I wish to turn, in the few minutes which I am trying to set for myself, to one or two major issues which seem to me also to be unanswered.
    I said that the Home Secretary had set himself one other objective—to provide a logical, definitive and lasting solution. How does the right hon. Gentleman set about it? The Home Secretary has gone about the logic by saying that in future there shall be different categories of people concerning the right of entry into this country. Whereas today there are Commonwealth citizens and aliens, tomorrow there will be aliens and patrials.
    The attempts to definie what is patrial has led the right hon. Gentleman already to be attacked, and in a sense effectively attacked, by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West. But I simply do not think that one hon. Member who heard the Home Secretary believes that he has established a logical, convincing and coherent definition of what is patrial and why patrial should be. Nor do we even know with any certainty to whom it will apply.
    My hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor) put down a Question on Friday to ask the Home Secretary about Rhodesia. Rhodesia is not part of the Commonwealth, but I understand that 150,000 to 200,000 Rhodesians are patrials under the Bill—
    Miss Joan Lestor: White Rhodesians.
    Mr. Shore: Yes, white Rhodesians. It may be that there are millions of people
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    in South Africa, which again is not a Commonwealth country, or in the United States, who are also eligible as patrials to come to this country and to exercise all the rights of citizenship. Am I right in thinking that? If I am, I find it an extraordinary doctrine—more extraordinary, frankly, than the certain amount of sentiment which we feel about such Commonwealth countries as Australia, Canada and New Zealand. As the Home Secretary himself said, we already accept that the children of British citizens who went there should be allowed to come into Britain. Clearly the Home Secretary has not made his point—
    Sir Frederic BennettRhodesia is a Crown Colony.
    Mr. Shore: My only other point in relation to whether this is a lasting solution is to draw the attention of the House to an extraordinary omission in the whole discussion of the Bill so far. As I read the Bill, it is almost certainly in contradiction of the obligations which the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is seeking to impose upon himself and the nation in his negotiations to join the Common Market.
    It is an extraordinary thing that we should be discussing who shall have access to Britain and under what terms, that the Government are saying that they hope to have found a permanent solution which will close the door certainly to the new Commonwealth in future, with the most stringent controls, while at the same time they are committed to signing a treaty which will open the door to 180 million Europeans who will be able, under the regulations and the articles which have been agreed, to have access to the labour market of this country on conditions which are far more favourable than those available under the Bill.
    The Government must know that if they succeed in their endeavour to join the Common Market, they will have to change this Bill—first, because there has to be no limit on the specification of the job to which a particular person comes within the Community, second because there has to be no limit on his wife and family who may accompany him, third because the children rule is at age 21 and not 18, and, fourth, because it expressly provides that a person who enters this

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    country on a temporary work permit must have a permit which runs for not less than five years.
    How the right hon. Gentleman can reconcile provisions of their Bill with those obligations, which he knows about but which he has refrained from telling the House about, which his colleagues are negotiating for and will impose upon themselves, I do not know. I do not know how he manages to justify such extraordinary behaviour. If I am wrong in these facts, I shall be only too pleased if the Home Secretary or the Minister of State will kindly correct me later.
    But otherwise, I hope that the Home Secretary will look at this matter very carefully and consider whether there is any sense in proceeding with a Bill which appears to have few friends even on the right hon. Gentleman's own side of the House and virtually none on this side, and which he knows quite well cannot provide that lasting framework for the future of immigration which he has set out to achieve.
    7.16 p.m.
    Mr. Harold Gurden: The previous Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) made an excellent job of his opposition to the Bill, but left us with the option of believing him or my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on many of these points. I certainly accept what my right hon. Friend said. I thought that he made a very sincere and constructive speech.
    Hon. Members opposite have clearly forgotten the debates which we had in 1962. This is a repetition of all we heard then—opposition to the first Immigration Bill, completely voting against all its provisions in Committee. Then, when hon. and right hon. Gentlemen came to power, they accepted the whole of that Bill. Here we are again, doing exactly the same thing. This amounts to hypocrisy. All the old charges of racial hatred and of the futility of trying to control immigration are now coming out again.
    Whatever we might say on either side, the problem has been recognised broadly throughout the country as one of numbers. If the thousands we talk about
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    had indeed been hundreds, there would have been no story to tell. It is because the Government have recognised that neither party has solved the problem that we still need the Bill.
    We have the lesson of America. We know that no other country has faced an immigration problem at all comparable with our own. We have over-crowding to the extent that we have about 1,000 people to the square mile—compared with the other extreme, Australia, where there are only four people to the square mile.
    We have an unemployment problem larger than we would care to see. It certainly means that every immigrant is a competitor for the jobs which become available. We must always bear this in mind when we talk about unemployment figures. Although there may be serious unemployment problems in some of the under-developed countries, which we would all like to help, we should recognise that we should try to solve our own problems first. If there is any preferential treatment, some of us think that it should be for our own nationals.
    We now seem to be broadly agreed that the matter is a problem of numbers. I was challenged by the hon. and learned Member for Lincoln (Mr. Taverne) the other night on the "24 Hours" programme, when I said that the number of immigrants we were talking about was in the region of 50,000, because I admit I included an imaginary number of illegal immigrants. I took that figure from the former Sir Frank Soskice—now the noble Lord, Lord Stow Hill—who said that he thought the figure of illegal immigrants was of the order of 10,000. I accept that my figure of 50,000 could be an exaggerated figure, but the figure for 1970 as recorded in HANSARD was 36,725, to which we must add the figure for illegal immigrants. Therefore, when the hon. and learned Member for Lincoln after challenging me then said that the figure was only 15,000, one can see how acute exaggeration can be.
    I support this Bill wholly and in every respect. I admit that it does not go far enough for me. There are some things I should like to see improved. Nevertheless, this was a statement which had been made to the country, and the country announced its decision in the ballot box last June. To that extent the Government

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    had a responsibility to bring this Bill before the House.
    The provisions in regard to a specific job in a specific place are most important to Members of Parliament like myself in the Midlands. We in Birmingham and surrounding towns know only too well that we have wide support in our wish for stronger immigration control, though there are many Members of Parliament who do not have a problem in their constituencies. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) has done a great service by bringing this matter to the attention of the House.
    In regard to criticisms which have been made about the police check, I have yet to meet a policeman who objects to doing this job. Mostly they feel that they have had no problem in checking upon aliens. Aliens have accepted it, and why should not other immigrants?
    Mr. Nigel Spearing: The hon. Member has said that police have not objected to checks. Has he asked any policemen whether he would object to checking on Commonwealth citizens?
    Mr. Gurden: Yes, I have and no policeman I have met has had any objection. If there is a misunderstanding among immigrants as to what a policeman really means when he is simply there to carry out the law and to make checks, this is too bad. The immigrants must understand, as I believe they largely do understand, that a policeman is not there to carry out racial hatred. There may well be some desirable Amendments made to this Bill at a later stage, but for the most part those of us with an immigration problem in our constituencies certainly welcome this Measure.
    There is a danger, having heard the speech of the right hon. Member for Cardiff. South-East, that the House may be divided on some of the Amendments which might come forward in Committee and on Report. All of us on this side of the House fought the last election on policy which was clearly set out in Conservative Party propaganda. The matter of immigration was included, and every hon. Member on this side of the House should carry part of the responsibility.
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    If there is any charge to be made against any Government and any country on the question of racial discrimination or immigration laws, people should not look to England. They should turn their eyes to look at countries like Kenya, which has turned out people for no other reason than that they were not born in Kenya. The same sort of principles apply to Nigeria and other countries. If countries—including the developing countries—were as generous to immigrants and aliens as we are, there would not be much wrong with them.
    7.25 p.m.
    Mr. David Steel: To put the matter bluntly, I and my colleagues regard this Bill as dishonest for the reason that it was based on the dishonest statement in the Conservative Party Manifesto at the last General Election that there would be no further large-scale permanent immigration. Having listened to the right hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes) outlining the steps which were taken right up to the time of the last election on the control of immigration, it was obvious to anybody who knew the facts that there was not in June last year any large-scale permanent immigration. It was already under firm control. Nevertheless, this statement was made in the Conservative Manifesto and the Government obviously feel bound to act upon it now. Hence, the basic dishonesty behind the Bill.
    The Government have not even carried out the pledge which was apparently given in the manifesto. The patrial Clause opens the door to an ill-defined number of people coming into this country on a large scale, and permanently if they so wish. I have been given the figure of l¼ million such persons in the subcontinent of India. Certainly the number who emigrated to this country between 1959 and 1967 amounted to 2 million. There will be no dispute that they should he allowed back should they wish. But once one extends this to the parental and grand-parental Clauses, one gets into a situation where a 1-year-old female child who emigrated with its parents in the year 1821, 150 years ago, could be the grandmother of somebody today claiming entry under the patrial Clause. What estimates did the Government make, before laying the Bill, of the number of such persons throughout the world who

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    could qualify for entry under the new open-door system of large-scale permanent immigration into this country?
    If we contrast that remote ancestry of 150 years ago with somebody who for over two generations has been involved in the citizenship and livelihood of a country like Australia, and think of the position of a person who holds a United Kingdom passport but who lives with no other citizenship, say, in East Africa, we realise the racial contrast which exists under this legislation. It is clearly racialist and it is also clearly ineffective. What will happen if, to use the phrase used by the Lord Chancellor, there were a "run on the bank"—a phrase of which we heard so much during the Kenya-Asians legislation? Supposing a certain political situation developed in any country where a large number of patrials lived. Are we to have a complete open door as is suggested in the basic part of this legislation?
    The second misconception about the Bill was repeated by the Home Secretary today and was included in his Press conference, namely, that the Bill would not affect the lives of people who were already here for permanent settlement. On examination, this statement is not correct. Such persons become subject to the new deportation Clauses of the legislation, and the deportation Clause affecting members of the family is particularly objectionable. But most important, whether they like it or not, they become affected by the proposals for registration with with the police. Although the Home Secretary might say that at the moment the police do not go around stopping people in the streets and asking if they are illegal immigrants, the problem of the illegal immigrant is minute as compared with the situation which will exist in five years' time when we have large numbers of patrials in this country and also a large number of non-patrials who will have come in and who by that time will be maintaining a legal livelihood.
    How is one to state the difference between the two classes of immigrants when one meets them face to face; when they are involved in a parking offence or a brawl outside a pub? We have to consider that situation in conjunction with Clause 3(8), which states:
    "When any question arises under this Act whether or not a person is patrial, or is
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    entitled to any exemption under this Act, it shall lie on the person asserting it to prove that he is."
    One can see very considerable opportunity there for friction between the immigrant communities and the police, and that is why I believe the Secretary of the Police Federation has himself indicated that the police are reluctant to get involved in this sort of exercise.
    The plain fact is that the Bill involves a substantial reduction in civil liberties for a great many people and does not carry out the promise made by the hon. Member for Runcorn (Mr. Carlisle). Speaking from the Opposition Front Bench in 1969, he mentioned two principles and said:
    "The second principle is that those who are here should be treated as equals before the law and in regard to human rights, from whichever part of the world they come."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th November, 1969; Vol. 791, c. 207.]
    The fact is that once they are here these people will not under this legislation be treated as equals before the law but quite differently.
    The Home Secretary has himself been guilty of some personal confusion over what the Bill tries to do. Speaking to Indian journalists on 2nd February last, he said:
    "The idea we are intending to assimilate the basis of Commonwealth citizens with aliens is quite wrong, we never intended this, we never said we would do it, we don't intend to do so".
    He later said:
    "But the idea, and I want to emphasise this very much, that we are trying to assimilate the position of a Commonwealth citizen with that of an alien under the law of this country, has no foundation at all."
    Yet, in an unguarded, unscripted reply to an intervention today the right hon. Gentleman has again used the phrase about assimilating the two codes of legislation.
    He has sought around to justify every objectionable part of the Bill by referring to precedents which are all, in my view, undesirable. We have levelled down the principles of legislation governing immigrants. We have taken the Aliens Act of 1914, and perhaps the amended version of 1919 which itself was accepted at that time only with considerable reluctance by many hon. Members and which, unlike this Bill, was renewable annually.

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    That legislation was passed in a period of post-war suspicion about foreigners in this country, and we have taken it as a basis for our new permanent code. That is in spite of the fact that in 1957 by Order under the Aliens Act, the provisions for the registration of aliens in hotels were eased, and that in 1960 another Order removed the need for permanent alien residents to register with the police. Despite all that, we are now almost opening the door for such measures again.
    The basic reason for the Bill is unworthy. We know perfectly well that the numbers of immigrants in the last year, and in recent years, have run at about 4,000. We are not dealing with dependants—they will not be affected, or that is said not to be the intention. Does anyone suggest that the figure of 4,000 will be substantially reduced once the Bill is passed? Unless one can produce evidence to that effect there is no argument that it will control numbers or that it involves numbers at all.
    The Bill was introduced as an attempt to satisfy the spiritual nymphomaniacs who exist here and there on the benches opposite, but who will not be satisfied, and cannot be satisfied. The ink was hardly dry on the Bill before the hon. and learned Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell) was writing to the Daily Telegraph:
    "The Immigration Bill…will be welcomed by all who want to see the terrible problem of coloured immigration brought under control."
    A little later he stated:
    "…and the main enduring problem, anyway, is the size of the already arrived coloured population, and the rate of its natural increase."
    He ended his letter by saying:
    "It will also be appreciated how much depends upon repatriation and the inducements to it which are offered. It is here that the Bill most needs strengthening."
    That is mild stuff compared with what we heard from the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) this afternoon.
    The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Gurden) is reported in the Daily Telegraph this morning as having spoken at the Monday Club's
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    national conference at Nottingham. The report states:
    "Finger-printing of immigrants as an aid to identification is something that will eventually be achieved, Mr. Harold Gurden, Conservative M.P. for Birmingham, Selly Oak, predicted at the Monday Club's national conference at Nottingham."
    That is followed by the interesting sentence:
    Many Right-wing Conservatives belong to the Club."
    The report goes on:
    "The conference passed by 75 votes to 20 a resolution calling for the repatriation of immigrants of alien races,' and urging the Government to offer them resettlement grants 'sufficient to secure an effective reduction in the alien population'."
    Those people will not be satisfied with this Bill. This will not be, as the Home Secretary hopes that it will be, the last piece of legislation of this sort. That is why it is important that those who recognise these truths should stand up and say so now. I believe that the House has indulged unwittingly over recent years in a game of racialist leapfrog.
    I know that the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), as he told us again today, introduced with great reluctance the 1968 Kenya Asian legislation which I and others opposed. The right hon. Gentleman is a man of good will, but he introduced that legislation because he thought that it would call off the hounds. It did not. Nor will this Bill. This is a naked attempt to assuage passions which are, I hope only temporarily, aroused in the country and among certain elements in the House. We, and by that I mean lion. Members of all parties, should fight against them.
    7.36 p.m.
    Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith: I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on his initiative in bringing forward the Bill, and I welcome the new arrangements and controls not only in the interests of people born in this country but in the interests of a very large number of immigrants who have already been allowed to enter.
    Hon. Members opposite talk about passions and violence, or quote the Monday Club: can we not remember, as my right hon. Friend pointed out, the truly enormous problems already stored up and waiting to be solved in about

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    twelve of our great cities and conurbations, where we have great numbers of immigrants living in subnormal conditions? We are accused of racism, extremism and Right-wingism if we say, "Let us straighten things out for them and make living in this country worthwhile before we encourage more to come".
    I am not very impressed by the synthetic opposition coming from hon. Members opposite, because in 1962 I, too, was in the House when all through the night we were kept up by blatant Opposition speeches. I can remember the words of the right hon. Gentleman who wound up that debate, when he said, "Of course, you want to forget it, but we don't". And he banged on the Dispatch Box and said, "The first Act of a Labour Government will be the repeal of an inhuman colour bar Bill".
    That sentiment was also expressed in the election days of 1964, no doubt bringing in all the support the Labour Party thought it might gain from it. But when faced with the realities of Government responsibility—and I salute the then Home Secretary for facing up to these problems—it took a Labour Government only some eleven days to continue our Bill which, as I say, they had opposed all through the night, and in seven weeks they brought in even more stringent controls. I hope that tonight hon. Members opposite will not, in seeking purely party political advantage, make the same mistake twice and oppose this Bill.
    I have never failed to pay tribute to the economic contribution which the many thousands of Commonwealth immigrants made when we as a matter of deliberate policy encouraged them to come here in the 1950s. Some of the great undertakings sent missions out to the West Indies to hand-pick staff and to give them aided passages here.
    We should be unwise now to doubt the tensions which have arisen because of the concentration of too many in too few areas. Whatever we say, these tensions exist, and this cuts right across political parties. At that time there were only 200,000 unemployed. Today the figure is 750,000, the majority of whom are what are now called white patriate citizens. Are these people to be called racists because they think that there
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    should be permit job control and that they should have first claim on jobs in Britain?
    Let us also spare a thought for the hard-pressed local authorities whose social services have been far outstripped by the influx of immigrants. In some areas, if the housing committees allocated their property exclusively on a basis of social need, no while family would get anywhere near an allocation for the next 10 or fifteen years.
    When distressed elderly grandparents with two married children and grandchildren, all living at home, come to hon. Members, as I am sure that they have to many hon. Members opposite, as they have to me, and claim that every room but the bathroom is now a bedroom and that over the years their children's priority for housing decreases rather than rises, because of the large families of immigrants, do we say to them, "You are racists"?
    I therefore welcome, as I am sure that the majority of the people do, the new permit system for a specific job for a specific time. It is no kindness to encourage more people to come when we can neither house nor employ many of the immigrants already here.
    I greatly welcome the penalties which are to be introduced at long last for illegal entry, not only for those who come but also for those who arrange and organise this traffic. I want to see an end to the vicious traffic in human souls where evil men wax rich by charging vast sums of money for false papers, doubtful journeys and illegal entry.
    What is more terrifying is that it keeps whole families of immigrants in perpetual debt, paying back the principal and outrageous rates of interest; and they have always hanging over their heads the threat of blackmail—"You came in illegally. You cannot go to the police. You cannot complain". This is far more widespread among the illegal immigrants than many hon. Members may appreciate.
    I could not disagree more with some of my right hon. and hon. Friends and with hon. Members opposite in their endeavour to persuade the Home Secretary—I hope that he is not so persuaded—to change the place of registration from the police to some other authority. I believe that it is essential that these people

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    should know that they have the most disciplined and the most tolerant police force in the world and that if anyone is in trouble it is to the police force that he should go.
    Nothing could do more damage to good relations and to confidence than that we should now change the system of registration which applies to aliens. This principle goes for the little Spanish girl who cannot speak a word of English when she arrives here, it goes for the little Italian waiter as well: if they are stuck, if they merely lose their way in a big city, or if they are harassed by louts at a railway station, they go to a policeman.
    If we say, "We can trust an alien who cannot speak English to go to our police, but do not for heaven's sake let a poor Commonwealth immigrant go to our police", we shall encourage them to believe that our police would not be tolerant; we shall encourage them to believe that our police would not honourably carry out their duties of registration.
    Hon. Members argue that the registration function should be handed to the Department of Health and Social Security or to officers of employment exchanges. Those working at employment exchanges are neither trained nor qualified to follow up such cases. The moment somebody went missing, these officers would have to hand the matter over to the police, anyway. They have not the powers to go round houses looking for someone who is missing. Anyway, these officers would not want this additional job imposed upon them.
    It is a monstrous slur on the police force to suggest that they would not honourably, fairly and tolerantly discharge this task. To remove this task from them would be to destroy the confidence we want to build up between immigrants and the police rather than make the situation any easier.
    As many other hon. Members want to speak, I will forbear from taking up two points which I wanted to take up, arising from the speech of the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel). I again congratulate my right hon. Friend and express the belief that the Bill will be of great effect and usefulness.
    7.47 p.m.
    Mr. John Fraser: I cannot agree with the congratulations which the right hon. Lady the Member for Chislehurst (Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith) has tendered to the Home Secretary. I thought that the enthusiasm and the conscientiousness which the Home Secretary displayed in presenting the Bill were about equivalent to a Calvinist trying to convince the Free Presbyterian Church of the virtues of Protestantism. That is about as far as the right hon. Gentleman went. I thought that he was careless in explaining the Bill to the House, as if somehow he had composed his speech over a beer at lunchtime. The undertakings he gave and his statement that he would have to change part of the Bill afterwards show the scant regard which has been paid to the seriousness of the issue.
    The case that many of us on this side want to make against the Bill was made by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell). I agree in part with the case the right hon. Gentleman made against the Bill—namely, the extent of the patrial Clause. To that extent we are on common ground.
    The most important case the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West made against the Bill was his argument that it did not go far enough. Our case against the Bill is that it is a sop to Powellism and to things even to the right of that.
    The right hon. Gentleman himself gave one example. An expression was used in Germany before the war which I cannot quote in German. There is another one rather like it which was also used in 1938:
    "On the Continent they say
    They want a perfect nation;
    And every lad who weds must first pass an examination.
    Well, if they start that over here, it does not worry me.
    I would not need to tell them all about my family tree;
    I'd say, 'How do and how are you?' and show my testimonial."
    Those words were written by George Formby in 1938.
    That might have seemed ridiculously funny at the end of Blackpool Pier in 1938, but it is now a sick joke and hateful to many thousands of people in this country that they will have to produce their

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    certificate of patriality. It is the same kind of concept.
    This Bill is a sop. It does nothing about immigration, except that it extends the number of immigrants allowed to come here without any control. My constituency has perhaps as many coloured Commonwealth immigrants as almost any other constituency. I know that there are genuine fears about the pressures caused by immigration. It is understandable that there are fears. If there are not enough houses or school places there are bound to be fears.
    I do not think there is any dispute among any of the parties that there ought to be a form of non-discriminatory control of immigration. But this Bill has nothing to do with that. I am not opposed to trying to harmonise the control of aliens and of Commonwealth immigrants. To a large extent, our rules for Commonwealth immigrants and United Kingdom citizens are part of the empire hangover, and there is no reason why they should not be harmonised, provided that one takes the best features of both systems of control and applies them without discrimination, which means that we have to have a number of categories of admission—for example, for settlement, for temporary purposes and for students. However, the Bill takes the worst features of both systems and tries to harmonise them, and that is one reason for my objection.
    I am concerned about the effect of the Bill in this connection. To some extent, the 1962 Measure did not affect people who were already in this country. One heard that immigrants were not opposed to the Measure, and that indeed was an argument in favour of it. It did not affect them once they had arrived, and it gave them a statutory right to bring their dependants with them. It did not stir up problems. The 1968 Act was in the same vein. To a large extent, it did not affect people who were already here. But when I see the tears in the eyes of my constituents—and not just black constituents—because of the effect that this Bill will have upon their lives, I say to the Home Secretary that he must consider the bad effects that this Bill will have upon race relations. I have tried to explain to constituents, "You are patrial", or "You have come here before 31st July, 1971, and therefore the Bill does not affect you." But they reply
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    "If you do something to my brother or to my cousin, you also do something to me." That is the sort of effect that this Bill will have. It has a number of elements which, like chemical elements, by themselves may be harmless but when taken together have a noxious or explosive effect.
    I want to run through the objectionable elements in this Bill. First of all, there is the concept of Commonwealth patrial, a concept never before put into immigration law. One has had concepts of British nationality, but never before were millions of people who were settled citizens in other countries given the right to come here automatically. The 1968 Act gave this right to the citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies who had no other citizenship and who had to have a place of last resort. I would add another category—any person, whether he be patrial or not, who had United Kingdom and Commonwealth citizenship and has nowhere else to go. That is why I was opposed to the 1968 Act and its effect upon Kenya Asians. People saw a racial division.
    Secondly, there are the entry rules which say that if a person has not been here for five years, and even if he goes home to another country to attend a funeral or for a holiday, conditions shall be imposed upon his re-entry into this country. These conditions do not apply at the moment, and their imposition will stir up great difficulty.
    Then there is the provision relating to the police. I ask the Home Secretary to consider this matter extremely seriously. He knows very well that there has been a meeting of most of the chief superintendents of the police forces in the metropolis, for which police forces he is directly responsible. It is the overwhelming view of leading figures in the Metropolitan police that these provisions should not be proceeded with. The right hon. Gentleman knows that to be the case. The Police Federation is opposed to those provisions. The right hon. Gentleman cannot be blind to the fact that one of the worst possible fields of race relations is the relationship between the coloured immigrants and the police. This is not a slander on the police. It is a recognition of a fact of life. The detection of crime is made even more difficult by the fact that relations are bad at the

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    moment. All I say is that if we have these registration provisions, they will create worse relations between immigrants and the police, and every police officer in the Metropolis will tell the right hon. Gentlemen that this is the case.
    What is more, the situation is already resented by aliens. Americans who come here with work permits resent having to go to the police station to register. In addition, the system is unsuccessful. It does not prevent evasion. The police do not check whether a person works. The only effective system of control is through the insurance card. There are many people who come to this country without a work permit, but who nevertheless work because they go to the Social Security Office and get an insurance card. A student or a visitor for a holiday can do this quite easily. I have some experience of the Department of Employment. Everybody knows it to be the case that registration at a police station does not always work. This provision will only exacerbate the already bad relations between the police and immigrants.
    Worst of all is the repatriation Clause. Surely the fact that the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West found a seed of hone in it indicates that it is a seed of poison ivy and that it must be stamped out. Racialism is like a drug. Clause 29 may be a soft drug, but it can lead to the harder addiction of the Powellites and those even more to the right. There is no necessity for this Clause at all. It is a Clause upon which other people with more extreme views will build. A system of repatriation for compassionate cases can be arranged by the Department of Health and Social Security. There is no reason whatever to have this Clause.
    I hope the Home Secretary will realise that one of the strongest cases against the Bill is the effect that it will have upon race relations in this country. It will make some people feel, whether it be true or not, that they are second-class citizens. The right hon. Gentleman must have regard for what goes on inside the breasts and minds of millions of people in this country. He has come back from a province which has not solved this problem in 300 years. Over the weekend he has seen the kind of problems which arise in Northern Ireland, where people feel that they are treated differently and, in
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    fact, are treated differently. He must realise that race relations are very much a matter of confidence, understanding, trust and psychology. If he allows the Bill to proceed with these blatantly racial provisions, even though they are not intended to be racial, if he disregards the feelings of ordinary men and women, he will do a great disservice to race relations. We have to build a bridge between the races, a bridge which will not only cross but will avoid the rivers of blood to which the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West is so fond of referring.
    7.58 p.m.
    Mr. Kenneth Clarke: I welcome strongly the generality of this Bill because I accept that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has brought it forward with honourable motives and not with the dishonourable motives which have been attributed to him. I welcome the Bill particularly because of my right hon. Friend's attempt to bring some finality into the debate on the system of immigration control, which has raged for too long in this country, indeed since 1962.
    I have had some reservations about this legislation, and I believe that few of my hon. Friends who will speak have not some reservations. We put forward those reservations with a view to helping forward what we hope will be a final debate, which will produce an acceptable system of immigration control.
    For that reason, I regret that the Opposition have chosen to put on at least the face of total objection to the Bill, and I very much hope that, when it passes to its later stages, their objections will be put forward again in the hope that, given the flexibility which my right hon. Friend has already been showing, they will be able to agree on a common system of immigration control and thus, at least, avoid a debate on the system of control being an added and unnecessary complication for the future in this highly sensitive area.
    Having said that my support for the Bill is based on the hope that we shall see a definitive end to the debate about the system, I am surprised to find that arguments about numbers have been brought into the discussion from both sides of the House. The Bill is silent

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    upon numbers, and I should have thought that, in the present situation, the majority of right hon. and hon. Members were pretty well agreed on the desirable level of entry into this country. I say that although I realise that there are some formidable dissentients in one direction or another.
    The present level of 4,000 voucher holders has been accepted, perhaps reluctantly, by the bulk of hon. Members on both sides, and I should be surprised if there were any strong feeling in the House either that there could be a significant increase in the number in present circumstances or that there would be much to be gained by trying to curtail the present level of immigration much further.
    As I say, the Bill is silent upon that matter, but those hon. Members opposite who have spoken of the effect of the Bill upon the number of those entering this country seem to be trying to have their argument both ways. On the one hand, there have been objections along the line of millions, or hundreds of thousands, being admitted to this country who do not at the moment qualify, this argument being based on the definition of patrial in the Bill, while, on the other hand, there has been the implication that the Bill is pandering to what is described as a Powellite wish to depress even further the numbers coming here. One cannot have the argument both ways. I suspect that the end result under the Bill is likely to be that the number of people entering this country from the Commonwealth will remain much the same.
    There are those who argue that the aliens system which is now to be applied to Commonwealth immigrants will decrease the numbers actually entering this country and will in some way be more restrictive. While I accept that they will no longer be entering automatically for permanent settlement, again I consider that the numbers actually entering will be unlikely to be drastically affected.
    In 1969, the number of work permits issued to aliens under the aliens system was 67,788, and again in 1969 21,862 aliens were allowed unconditional residence here after having been here for a period of four years under work permits. Therefore, if, under the work permit
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    system as applied to aliens, slightly more people are actually coming into this country and are settling here than are at the same time coming in under the voucher system applied to Commonwealth immigrants, clearly restriction is not automatically implied by the Bill.
    I accept, however, that the general political view in this country at the moment is that, given the powers which he will have under the Bill, my right hon. Friend will not in present circumstances be allowed to inflate the numbers coming in from the Commonwealth too significantly because of the regrettable racial and social circumstances which the country faces.
    The objections to the system seem in part to be based on one alteration, though not a significant alteration, from former practice which in some ways extends the range of those who will be able to enter this country without control. That is the objection which is raised to the definition of patrial which now extends, under what is called the grandfather Clause, to a category of people in respect of whom objection is raised because, it is said, this provision is racially discriminatory in effect.
    In my view—I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley (Mr. Hunt) adopted roughly the same argument—a perfectly respectable case can be made out for this definition. In part, it recognises the somewhat different racial content of those people who are likely to want to come to this country under the grandfather Clause. It is intellectually dishonest for liberal opinion—as it is for illiberal opinion—to pretend that the debate about immigration control in this country at the moment centres on anything other than the racial problems which the country faces.
    Surely, in view of the steady reductions in the numbers coming in which have been made over recent years, the argument ought to have been accepted on both sides of the House by this time that, at the moment, with the unfortunate racial tensions which have arisen here, and which we all regret, it is desirable to restrict the number of coloured immigrants into this country for the time being, in the interests of both the black and the white population here, until something can be done to alleviate those

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    racial tensions and alleviate the social problems in the cities in which immigrants are most concentrated.
    If that be accepted—and it was accepted by the last Government as much as by this—as a basis for restricting the number of voucher holders coming into this country, why should a system which faces up to that regrettable necessity impose hardship on groups of people, in particular those who are the descendants of fairly recent emigrants from this country to Australia, New Zealand and British South Africa? Why should those restrictions be applied with the same rigour to them when, in fact, the problems which give rise to the necessity for restriction are problems to which they make no contribution?
    I do not accept that the application of the grandparent test to establish how people should be regarded is unreal. What one is trying to do is not just to admit all those who might want to come to Britain from those countries. The descendants of Italian Australians or East European Australians will have no reason to expect easier entry into this country than that expected by any other would-be immigrants. The object is to try to leave open a provision to allow the return of those people who have some fairly recent family connection, those who are likely to have relatives in this country, people fairly recently descended from emigrants from this country to the Commonwealth. It is to allow those people to come back, and I see nothing particularly unfortunate or objectionable in such a provision.
    Indeed, if the present state of racial tensions in this country and the need for us to take measures to restrict the further inflow of coloured immigration for the foreseeable future were allowed to cause hardship to individuals from British families in Australia who wanted to come back to what they regard as the homeland, I should regard that as a most undesirable hardship which ought not to be caused by this country simply in an effort to achieve a bogus uniformity in the way it treats would-be immigrants.
    Having said that I accept this attempt to draw up a system, I regard the idea of having the aliens system applied to both as desirable because it will impose quite reasonable conditions—five years
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    stay here, being of reasonably good behaviour, keeping in work, and so on, before one acquires a guaranteed right to stay. I must say, however, that there are certain aspects of the aliens system which, in my view, cannot be so happily applied to Commonwealth immigrants and which I should like my right hon. Friend to reconsider.
    In this connection, I add my voice to those who have expressed doubts about the proposed system of registration. I accept that my right hon. Friend's motives are entirely honourable in seeking to introduce this system. Clearly, as we are trying to restrict immigration because of racial tensions in certain of our cities, one could in the event be slightly more flexible if, in future, we could so control immigration that we knew precisely where people would go when they came here and where they would stay. One could be slightly more generous in allowing people to come to this country if they were going to live and work in areas where there were not the same social and racial problems as there are in, say, Nottingham, Birmingham, London and a few other cities.
    In my view, however, the manner of trying to achieve that end is unfortunate and will not work. First, I doubt that the system of registration proposed is enforceable in the case of Commonwealth immigrants. If I am wrong about that, I doubt that there is any method of making it enforceable which would not be intolerable in its effects.
    On the question of enforceability, I recognise that aliens coming here at present register with the police, and this system is reasonably well enforced and gives rise to no great difficulty. But, with respect, there is a great difference between the position of aliens at present coming to this country who register with the police and the Commonwealth immigrants to whom these provisions are now to be applied.
    Aliens coming here tend to be people who do not really intend to settle, and also they tend to stand out, either by accent or by language, and be readily distinguishable from other sections of the community here. The Commonwealth immigrants for the most part come intending to settle here permanently. They are very difficult to separate from those sections of the community who also come from the Commonwealth. For example,

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    it is very easy for a Sikh to merge with the Sikh community in the city to which he happens to go. There is a world of difference between trying to detect a man who has gone to live in such a community instead of staying in his registered job and trying to detect a German, Italian or even an American who has attempted to do the same thing without the same possibilities of merging into one part of our community.
    It is that part of the problem that most concerns me. I do not think that it is a great hardship for someone to have to register with the police. But if we are to have registration, the important question is what happens if someone who is meant to have renewed his registration vanishes. It is the detection of the defaulters that gives rise to the problem. The defaulters amongst Commonwealth immigrants can vanish as successfully as the illegal immigrants now coming to this country seem to vanish from police detection. If the police are to chase them forcefully, looking in and amongst the immigrant community in the big cities for defaulting people who should be registered, that will give rise to tensions with the police force if we are not very careful.
    That problem cannot be overcome by registering with any other source. It has been suggested that immigrants could register with employment exchanges. I doubt whether the Department of Employment would be anxious for the employment exchanges to be used in that way. Insurance cards might be used, it is suggested, but I am sure that the Department of Health and Social Security would not be anxious to have them stamped or marked in any way. There would have to be a great change in the present system of issuing insurance cards if they were to be used effectively as a control.
    But whether we adopted a registration system using employment exchanges or insurance cards, we should still have to hand over to the police the problem of what to do when someone who should have renewed his registration suddenly vanishes. Given 4,000 people being admitted, I doubt whether such attempts to restrict their movements by any system of registration will be worth the trouble that will be involved if we seek to enforce them.
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    There is a case for saying that we should return to the difficult problem of deciding whom we shall let into this country in the first place and then say that the problems for community relations, for the police and other authorities of trying to restrict the movement of those people inside the country once they are here are not worth taking up. In principle I have reservations about extending at all the numbers of those people whom we let in under restrictions of movement about the country, either from work place to work place or in any other way. While it would not involve any fundamental damage to our way of life, it is undesirable to have to go too far along the road of having certain groups of people within our society whose movement is restricted, who are over-dependent on one employer, and who are subject to the kind of restrictions that registration involves.
    When I talk of registration in this way, it may be said that the fears about registration of those members of the black community who are most concerned are exaggerated, that they over-play the part the police will play when they say in their emotive and inaccurate language that the police will he applying pass laws in this country. The fears of the black community are worth paying some regard to, if not in this respect. The Bill is a very valuable attempt to allay the fears of one part of the community that there should be no future large-scale mass immigration. If we go too far towards allaying the fears of one part of the community, we can arouse fears in the other part. That is against the interests of all sections of society.
    In that connection, it would be valuable if, at the same time as pressing the Bill through the House, as he quite rightly intends to do, my right hon. Friend could do something to allay the fears of the black community, first by re-emphasising the right of dependants of those already here to come. He has done that in part and I welcome his concession in Rule 37 of the draft Rules and the flexibility he has shown in underlining the policy of allowing dependants of those already here to come.
    I wish that he could go on, before the Bill completes its passage through Parliament, to deal with the problem of Kenyan Asians, which has particular

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    significance at this time. I accept that the Bill does not deal in terms with their position, but while the Government are reviewing the whole question of the system of entry into this country it is an ideal opportunity for them to make a statement of principle, if they cannot make any practical advances at present, in view of difficulties in East Africa, that they will expand the entry into this country of those British passport-holders in East Africa to whom we are under a considerable obligation, and who are suffering considerable hardship as a result of our having had to go back on our word two years ago.
    If my right hon. Friend will pilot the Bill through the House making statements like that to allay the unjustifiable fears of the black community, and at the same time pay heed to the reservations expressed on this side, I will certainly welcome the Bill when it reaches the Statute Book, as I welcome it in its present form as a valuable contribution towards our getting an orderly and sensible system of immigration.
    8.16 p.m.
    Mrs. Renée Short: A number of hon. Members on both sides have, I am glad to say, admitted that the number of immigrants allowed in latterly has been considerably reduced. This, of course, will not be accepted by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), who always argue about numbers and never accepts anyone else's. He turns aside the figures of the Home Office and the Registrar-General—
    Mr. Powell: Their numbers are wrong.
    Mrs. Short: Everyone's numbers are wrong but the right hon. Gentleman's. He picks them out of the air from somewhere. They are gospel.
    But at least it has been admitted by Conservative Members that we made a considerable contribution to the effective control of the numbers of people coming in. One particularly honest Conservative Member, the right hon. Member for Chislehurst (Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith) admitted that the former Conservative Government encouraged immigrants to come here. The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West
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    had a part in that, because he encouraged recruiting in the West Indies. He was a member of the Cabinet for many years during that period, and did not raise his voice then against the numbers of immigrants.
    I have always supported the legislation my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) introduced to get immigration under effective, fair and humane control. But the Home Secretary is wasting the time of the House with this completely unnecessary Bill. If he wants to add more control of the numbers of immigrants and others coming into the country, that is entirely within the powers he already possesses. We do not need a new Bill to do that.
    In a poor, thin and defensive speech, the Home Secretary did not convince anyone. He did not put forward any convincing arguments for introducing the Bill now. Several of my hon. Friends have already said what they believe to be the reason, and I do not need to belabour the point. We all know it. It is a pointless waste of time to produce this unnecessary window-dressing when the right hon. Gentleman can do as he wishes with the numbers.
    At his recent Press conference the right hon. Gentleman said:
    "If we are to achieve a society of tolerance and mutual acceptance, we must ensure both that ail who live here are properly treated and that no further strain is put upon community relations by any more large-scale immigration."
    Why did he say that? What does he mean? We do not have any more large-scale immigration. This is just another attempt to delude people outside the House, the sort of people the other Member for Wolverhampton always talks to, and at, outside the House when he tries to persuade them to go along with the ridiculous myth that there is now large-scale immigration going on. That is not so. He went on to say that the overriding objective the Government wanted to achieve was
    "… a society in which all citizens feel and are equal before the law."
    I suggest that the Bill will do nothing to contribute to that feeling. I believe that it will have a divisive effect, not only between black and white but within the black community itself. The hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Kenneth Clarke)

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    suggested that this is not a problem of numbers, but if the Bill were concerned with numbers then the Government should pay much more attention to the number of aliens coming into the country. The figure is increasing year by year. In 1963, for example, there were 52,466 applications by employers to bring alien workers in. By 1970, this total bad risen to over 57,000. That is far more than the number of immigrants with work vouchers and their dependants who came in last year. Perhaps the Minister of State can tell us how many of these alien immigrants are still here, how many of them have left and how many have applied for British nationality with the intention of settling here and bringing over their families.
    Will the Home Secretary investigate how many foreign workers are living here on a temporary basis and what their future intentions are? The number involved is obviously fairly large. But these immigrants are invisible. We do not see them. We only know about them when they speak and we hear them talking with accents different from those we find among our own people. But the Commonwealth immigrants are obvious—they are black and visible to everyone.
    Most alien workers are grossly underpaid for the work they do. Many of them work in hotels and restaurants where they receive rotten wages, have to endure very long hours and get very poor food and poor lodgings as part of their payment. They are frightened to join their trade union because they are afraid of discrimination against them, afraid of getting the sack from their exploiting employers. This situation is developing seriously and it is one to which the Government should pay attention.
    I hope that the hon. Gentleman will give us some information about a group of aliens not so far mentioned in the debate. I refer to foreign-born husbands of British wives who may want to live here. What will their position be under the Bill? Will it be as it is now, or will it change? I am talking about those who wish to come first on a temporary basis to work and who may eventually wish to settle with their British-born wives and perhaps their British-born children.
    We understand from the Bill that aliens and Commonwealth immigrants coming here will have to obtain work permits,
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    and so on. How will the permits be granted to coloured workers? We know what conditions they will have to abide by when they get here, but what will be the position before they come? How will permits be awarded? Will the system be the same as now—that is to say, a permit being awarded where a genuine effort to find a British worker to do the job on the same conditions and with the same wages has failed? Or will it be that we shall perhaps not be able to get British workers to do the dirty and unpleasant jobs? If it is the latter case, the Home Secretary may well find that the trickle of immigrant workers coming in with work permits will develop into what the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West may call a flood. The fact is that laying down the criterion that the job is one which cannot be filled by a British worker involves a very large number of jobs which British workers do not want to do and which employers may well try to bring more and more immigrant workers into the country to fill.
    The Home Secretary will clearly have to lay down very firm criteria for the granting of work permits and presumably this cannot just be for Commonwealth immigrant workers only. It will have to be for alien workers as well. He will have to introduce the same regulations for the granting of permits for both types of immigrant. Or does he seriously and secretly intend to be much tougher on the Commonwealth citizens than on foreign nationals? One does not really know.
    But whatever the grounds are, once the immigrant has his permit and is here, there will be the question of registration with the police. I join those hon. Members on both sides of the House who have supported the view of the Police Federation. Apparently the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Gurden) did not know that the Federation had sent a memorandum to the Department about this. The Federation is not pleased at the police being asked to take on this additional job. It will hinder the police in the job we are most anxious that they should do—the prevention of crime. If they are messing about with the registration of people coming into the country and with changes in address and jobs and the rest of it, it is clear that our under-manned police forces all over the country will not be able to cope adequately. It is not surprising that the

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    police have said that they do not want this additional work. In any case, as the hon. Member for Rushcliffe said, what happens when a man disappears—goes to ground? Who are going to follow the case up? How are the police going to find him? It is easy for immigrants to disappear, as we know from experience, but it is not always easy to track them down.
    The registration proposal will make the already difficult and delicate situation which exists in many parts of the country where there are large concentrations of immigrants more difficult and more delicate. It will cause race relations to deteriorate. We must face facts as they are. It will lead to some unpleasantness and some harassing and bullying of some immigrants in some areas by a minority of police. Some policemen will assume that any coloured person may well be here illegally, and in some areas a minority of the police may create difficulties for those who may have been here for 10, 15, or even 20 years. [HON. MEMBERS: "Disgraceful."] It is not disgraceful.
    We have to face facts and reality, and in every job and profession in this country there are those who like to take advantage of the power they hold and which they wield over others who are not in a position to answer back, or to get others to take up the case on their behalf. I hope that the Minister of State will say tonight that the Government are to have second thoughts about this and will not wait for the Committee stage of the Bill, that he will say that he is willing to reconsider whether some better and less inflammatory solution can be found.
    The only Part of the Bill which makes any sense is the provision which deals with those who break the law by assisting illegal entry. No one wants those people to get off scot free. Those who break the law and help illegal immigrants, black or white, wherever they come from, should be punished, not only because they act illegally by breaking our laws and procedures, but because they swindle and cheat the unfortunate people whom they try to bring here. They trick them of their savings and raise false hopes. This is very cruel, and it is something which we cannot tolerate.
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    But this part of the Bill does not outweigh the rest and it is still unnecessary to have these provisions with the rest of the paraphernalia to inflict greater penalties on those who break the law. The Home Secretary could have dealt with illegal entry quite simply.
    There is a story in the newspapers tonight concerning a serious case of an organisation to bring in large numbers of illegal immigrants. This is something which should be stamped on severely, but one has to keep a reasonable and balanced view. In the Press in recent months there have been many scare stories about large numbers of people poised to bring in large numbers of immigrants by little boats at night, immigrants who will find their way to Bradford, Birmingham, or Leeds—[HON. MEMBERS: "Or Wolverhampton."]—or Wolverhampton. But one is learning to take some of this propaganda with some caution. We hear it in connection with other matters. The Abortion Act provides a classic example of hysterical stories which are taken up by the Press which gives but little publicity to subsequent denials.
    No weapons are too base, too complicated, too distorted, for some to swing public opinion against immigrants. This is what the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West was doing when he recently made a speech in Carshalton about immigration, a very different kind of speech from that which he made in the House today. He never makes such speeches here. For years we have been saying that he does not make inside the House the kinds of speeches which he makes outside. He would not dare to do so, for he knows what kind of reception he would get.
    At Carshalton he went back to his Birmingham vintage choice of words and said:
    "The explosive which will blow us assunder is there and the fuse is burning, but the fuse is shorter than had been supposed."
    One can hear him saying it with those dramatic pauses and that lowered voice, trying to frighten his audience to death. He went on to say:
    "There is a nightmarish quality about our predicament which numbs the mind."
    That may be what is wrong with the right hon. Gentleman. He is so deluded by this business, so obsessed by trying to prove

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    that his figures are right and those of everybody else wrong, so obsessed by the sexual activities of immigrants and the increase in their birthrate, so that by 1984 we are supposed to be likely to have 4 million immigrants, that he does not take account of the fact that the numbers arriving are falling year by year, that those coming here are young and have their children while they are here, and that we hope that they will come within the orbit of our social services, particularly the family planning clinics, and themselves learn to reduce the number of children they have, just as families here are learning, although not as quickly as we might like.
    All of these things are ignored by the right hon. Gentleman when he tries to strike terror into the hearts of audiences throughout the country. But he never uses the same words or arguments in this House. He ignores the fact that the Registrar's most recent figures, published only three days before his Carshalton speech, showed that altogether 77,000 more people left England and Wales than entered it.
    Mr. Powell: Who were they?
    Mrs. Short: We are talking about numbers, and 77,000 more left than entered. That was an increase of 8,000 over the number that left the year before. The numbers of people leaving are increasing. At the end of his tedious speech this evening, the right hon. Gentleman went on to advocate a massive, albeit voluntary, repatriation of coloured immigrants.
    That is really what he wants, only he does not want it to be voluntary, he wants it to be massive and compulsory. This is what he is after. Hon. Members opposite who say that this is to be the last Bill on immigration are wrong, unless the Home Secretary stands firm against the reactionary elements in his party, against the Monday Club and the rest of them who will be continually pressing for more and more and who will never be satisfied.
    I should be glad if the Home Secretary could repeat to the House what I think he said in his opening speech—[Laughter.]—what is the joke?
    Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I think that if the hon. Lady got on with her speech we might have a chance to get one
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    or two more hon. Members into the debate.
    Mrs. Short: The right hon. Gentleman said that children born here are citizens of the countries from which they came, under the laws of the countries from which they came. The doors are open for them to return, he said. I wonder what that means. If the children were born here, which country did they come from? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman thinks that children born here are brought by storks or something like that from another country. If they are born here, surely they are children of British birth and not coming from another country.
    Mr. Maudling: If I said anything remotely like that, I would be able to answer it, but I did not.
    Mrs. Short: I did not say that the right hon. Gentleman did. We are confused between the two right hon. Gentlemen. I said that his right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West said that in his Carshalton speech. I believe that the Home Secretary did make some reference to children born here of coloured immigrants.
    Mr. Maudling Mr. Maudling indicated dissent.
    Mrs. Short: Perhaps he could clarify that. I understand them to be British and not deportable.
    This brings me to the most serious part of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman is taking upon himself powers of deportation which I think are the most sinister and objectionable part of the Bill. The appeal rights and the machinery will not apply in cases where the Home Secretary thinks that the presence of a certain individual is not conducive to the public good. I am not sure what the right hon. Gentleman means by this and we do not know how it will work in practice. I suppose that it means that he can give the thumbs down, as the emperors of ancient Rome did, to anyone he does not like and get rid of him.
    The colour of a man's politics might decide whether the right hon. Gentleman thinks that his presence is conducive to the public good. It might be because he indulges in trade union activity, takes a certain stance on certain issues which are

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    important to the immigrant community or to the indigenous population, or just does not like the colour of the man's eyes: any reason would do. I do not suggest that the present Home Secretary would take this attitude, but this might be a very dangerous weapon to put in the hands of a less liberal Home Secretary. Another look should be taken at this part of the Bill because there should be provision for appeals machinery in it.
    I should be grateful if the Minister who replies would explain why control has to be exercised in this way. Why not use the powers which the Minister has already? How does the right hon. Gentleman think that the Bill will help to reduce friction and tension in areas like Wolverhampton where we have a large number of immigrants and many people living in bad conditions? Has the right hon. Gentleman been in touch with the Secretaries of State for Education and Science, for the Environment, for Trade and Industry and for the Department of Employment to discover what contribution they are making to the solution of these problems, which are not confined to the immigrant community, but exist in every large town and city in this country? They were present before many of the immigrants came here.
    It is a disgrace that white and coloured people should be living in conditions like those which exist in some large towns and cities. If the Government were to carry out some of their other election pledges—namely, to reduce unemployment, to ensure that the cost of living is held stable, and to do something about increasing the number of houses available—the social problems in many of our communities would disappear. That is the solution instead of the phoney charade of this window-dressing Bill.
    8.43 p.m.
    Mr. Hugh Fraser: I am sure that the speech of the hon. Lady the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Renée Short) will entertain those people in her constituency who enjoy indulging in municipal badinage. Apart from one point, she did not touch on the Bill. So faint has been her damnation of it that it has amounted to praise. I have found considerably more in the Bill to attack than the hon. Lady found.
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    One of the problems about the Bill is the very peculiar drafting of parts of it. It makes one wonder whether there was a power cut in the Ministry while sections of it were being discussed, especially that part relating to patrial relationship. It will be a long task to get the Bill into shape and order. However, it is the best of the three Bills on immigration which we have had. As long as sufficient work is done on it in Committee, I am sure that some of the seed corn which my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) wishes to spread will flourish.
    Despite the emotions which have been engendered by it, this is a restrictive Bill and it is therefore all the more important that justice should not merely be done but should be seen to be done. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and the right hon. Member for Cardiff, East (Mr. Callaghan) are men of great justice, but neither referred to this. Perhaps they do not read the newspapers. Perhaps they did not read the Law Journal this morning or what Tony Lewis of the New York Times said recently.
    When my party is attacked by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite for pursuing a party programme, I remind my hon. Friends that there is another part to our programme which is of considerable importance—the idea that there should be more open government, greater certainty of the individual's rights, the idea of a Bill of Rights which the Lord Chancellor talked about.
    I hope that nothing I am saying is not "conducive to the public good" which is one of the most absurd phrases ever dredged up. It was dredged up by civil servants in 1916 and re-dredged in 1920 at about the time of the Official Secrets Act in which I have a particular interest. My right hon. Friend is respectable, but this language is not respectable. The power given to the Minister to act where the conduct of any other person is "not conducive to the public good" is far too wide a power to give to any Minister without a right of appeal.
    Mrs. Renée Short: The right hon. Gentleman agrees with me.
    Mr. Fraser: I am with the hon. Lady occasionally, and why not? This is a grave matter, which applies to Clauses

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    3(5), 13(5), 14(3), 15(4) and 22(3). This is on the point where evidence cannot be shown to be proven. The refusal of a right of appeal is not merely against the principles of all good legislation but against nearly every convention which we have signed on the subject in the last 10 years—the European Convention of Human Rights, 1948, the Convention relating to the status of refugees, 1951, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights of December, 1966. The European Economic Community papers produced on 25th February, 1964, say that there should be a right of appeal for those who are threatened with deportation.
    The Bill must be altered in Committee in such a way as to ensure that there is a proper right of appeal. This ludicrous language, "not conducive to the public good", whatever it means, should be made less subjective and the same formula should be used as was used in the 1969 Act.
    Mr. St. John-Stevas: My right hon. Friend is raising an important constitutional point. Would it go some way to meet his point if an advisory committee were appointed, such as the one which existed for four years in the 1930s? This was an impartial advisory committee which made 33 recommendations, of which roughly half were for deportation and half against, all of which were accepted by the Home Secretary. Would that be an improvement?
    Mr. Fraser: I certainly think it would, and also the practice of our elders and betters who discovered the absurd phrase "conducive to the public good", when they unofficially used the Chief Metropolitan Magistrate to decide cases.
    Mr. Callaghan: If the right hon. Gentleman searched the records he would find that I did exactly that.
    Mr. Fraser: Now hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite are in favour of the proper preservation of liberty and the constitution. I am delighted to hear of this death-bed conversion.
    Mr. St. John-Stevas: No—a conversion after death.
    Mr. Fraser: They will never rise again. This is a serious issue, and a wide
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    one. It is the issue of open government, in this age of technical and technological democracy. This is one of the most important duties that hon. Members have to fulfil. We have had some success in amending the Official Secrets Acts—under which too much power and discretion was given to individual Ministers. It is impossible for a Minister, surrounded by millions of decisions taken by growing myriads of civil servants, to be certain that he is taking the right step.
    It is nonsense for my right hon. Friend to say that abuses of this sort can be rectified by Parliament; they cannot. They cannot be rectified by the "Nonbudsman" who lives in some mysterious office, with no powers whatsoever. The only way in which such abuses can be rectified is by the two lanterns that shine for democracy apart from this House—the lantern of the courts and the lantern of the Press.
    Any attempt, such as the attempt in the Bill, to take things out of the hands of the courts, is an attempt to give power to make secret decisions, and is against the essence of democracy and the strength of this Parliament. That is why I tell my right hon. Friend, in all seriousness, that many of us—myself included—will insist upon this being put right when the Bill is in Committee, otherwise I shall record my vote against the Bill.
    8.52 p.m.
    Mr. Thomas Torney: The trouble with many hon. Members opposite is that they are talking about the wrong motives. The Bill contains completely wrong motives, inasmuch as it deals with the restriction of numbers, whereas there is no need for any further restriction, because the numbers are continually falling. Even if that were an issue to be considered, I must point out that the Bill will do little towards restricting numbers.
    The problem does not concern race relations or immigration; it concerns the social conditions of all our people, and not merely of the immigrants. It is a question of the housing of all the people, and their education. The Bill plays into the hands of those irresponsible elements, both inside and outside the House, who encourage people to believe that the problems are caused by the coloured immigrants.

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    The Bill talks about immigrants, but let us be honest. Why are not the Government honest about this? The Bill is talking about black immigrants. We cannot deny that these additional police powers—the right to arrest without warrant; the right to deal with registration; and the right to follow up the question of the employment of immigrants—are obviously directed at the black man. If we see a man walking along the street, we cannot tell whether he is an Australian, a New Zealander or an Irishman, if he is white, but if he is black we can tell whether he comes from Jamaica or Pakistan, as many of my constituents do. It is this factor which is so unjust and unfair. It places the police, who are doing an excellent job, in an invidious position.
    The effects of the Bill in the Notting Hills of this country—of this world—following police activities along the lines which I have indicated, are likely to worsen race relations.
    I have been able to note the feelings among coloured people quite closely during recent months in my work on the Select Committee on Race Relations and Immigration. Already the coloured man suffers a feeling of discrimination. Even if he is not discriminated against, the mere colour of his skin, the fact that he knows that he is different from other people, makes him feel that he is discriminated against. The mere fact that when he goes for a flat or a house he is shepherded away from the nice areas of a district and is pushed along to the ghetto-like areas, and that when he goes for a building society loan his black face makes it so obvious to the building society manager that he is an immigrant, makes him feel that he is discriminated against, even if he is not.
    We are placing a far more difficult job in the hands of our police. We are also playing into the hands of the more militant, irresponsible groups of black people in this country. We are making it more difficult for those many responsible elements among coloured immigrants who try to give their people the correct and proper leadership.
    Listening to the arguments which have been put forward today, it is difficult for me to understand why it is necessary for the Government to introduce such a
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    Bill. I can only come to the conclusion that it is because the members of the Government are looking over their shoulders at those elements within their own party whom they want to placate and appease—people who have racial prejudices and give the kind of lead on racial matters which is to be very much deplored.
    I have always believed that the way to judge a man in this nation should be by what he can do for the country and what he can contribute to society as a whole. It certainly should not be based upon the colour of his skin, his religion, or on any other matter.
    The Bill acts far more against the coloured Commonwealth immigrant than against the white Commonwealth immigrant. I hope that liberally-minded hon. Members opposite will, with hon. Members on this side, support attempts which will be made, if not to stop the Bill going through, at least to amend it in Committee so that its worst racial features can be obliterated.
    8.59 p.m.
    Mr. Christopher Woodhouse: For the sake of brevity I shall confine myself to one point on the Bill. I recognise that the Bill is well intentioned and certainly carries out a party undertaking which was given at the General Election. However, it suffers from one serious defect to which only slight reference has so far been made. The Bill does nothing to remedy the injustice committed in 1968 against the East African Asians holding British passports.
    Both the Home Secretary and his predecessor have referred to this matter as though it could be dealt with by administrative action, but since this wrong was committed by legislation, it cannot be put right except by legislation. In fact, although the Bill repeals the 1968 Act, it nevertheless continues that Act's discrimination on racial grounds against the Asian holders of British passports.
    The reason why that is wrong and why the 1968 Act was wrong has nothing to do with race. It was wrong because, by that Act, Parliament broke Britain's word and thereby put in jeopardy people who had taken irreversible decisions about their nationality based on the assumption that Britain's word was her bond.

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    I deliberately do not speak of breaking a promise. I recognise that there was no explicit, openly expressed, public commitment, but the meaning of the nationality Clauses of the Kenya Independence Act and its successors was entirely clear. It was understood at the time by the Home Office, it was communicated by the Home Office to other Departments and the decision embodied in the Act was taken by the Government of the day with their eyes open.
    It is important to recall that it was not only the Asians in East Africa who were in issue at that time. There were large numbers of British-descended residents there and the choice open to the then Government was either to give passports to them all, white or Asian, or to withhold passports from them all, or to discriminate between the two on grounds of their racial descent. The Government of the day decided that both those latter courses were unacceptable, and therefore legislated in the normal form.
    I must emphasise that the then Government made that choice, to my certain knowledge, deliberately—not by default, not by mistake—and that they did so after the choice had been explicitly put forward, explained and discussed. It may be argued that this was an error of judgment, but if so it was an error of judgment made with our eyes open, and we had not the right to abjure the consequences. There was a least as much legal obligation to the East African Asians as there is to sell half a dozen helicopters to South Africa.
    That is why I say that Parliament broke Britain's word and why the injustice remains to he remedied. The Home Secretary has made it clear that he is open-minded on the detailed provisions of the Bill and that he is willing to amend it in Committee in broad details. I hope for an assurance by the' end of the debate that this is one of the aspects on which he is prepared to have second thoughts.
    9.3 p.m.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: We have had a wide-ranging debate, with some speeches of great force from both sides. Apart from those of some of my hon. Friends, I particularly enjoyed the speech of the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Hugh Fraser). His remarks about the drafting of the Bill being very peculiar,
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    whether because of the lighting in the Home Office or for other reasons, were very much to the point.
    I am rather mystified, having read the Bill and heard the Home Secretary, as to who prepared the Bill. I do not believe that a Law Officer has been near it, because I do not believe that even the two Law Officers whom we have in the House at present would have allowed the Bill to go through without a good number of very sharp comments. Clearly, the Home Secretary did not prepare the Bill. No one ever doubts his sharpness of perception, but no one could have heard him today without being quite clear that there were many parts of the Bill which he did not understand.
    I cannot believe that there were any drafting instructions on this bill beyond the Conservative Party's election manifesto and the Press hand-outs of the speeches of the Prime Minister at Norwich and Walsall, so it is not surprising that the parliamentary draftsmen had a hard time of it.
    This is both an unnecessary and an irrelevant Bill. It is in no way necessary to control the numbers entering this country at present. If it were necessary, it would not be effective. The numbers are now in my view not of a size to make any further control or restriction in any way desirable. Last year the numbers, including dependants, were just about 30,000. It would be almost impossible for that number to increase. On the contrary, it is almost certain that it will decrease because it is related very directly to the families and dependants of those who came here earlier to work and who were assured explicitly of the right of their families to join them.
    The Bill, in spite of what the Home Secretary said this afternoon, breaches that right in principle. But no further significant decline in numbers could be achieved without destroying that right at its core, in principle and in practice. The numbers coming in on both A and B vouchers combined are 4,000, a very small number indeed. I was not clear whether the Home Secretary proposed to reduce that number still further. That means that the heads of families entering this country last year from the whole of the new Commonwealth were probably fewer than those coming from Spain. It

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    is a minute number and it cannot be argued that it is desirable that it should be reduced further.
    In these circumstances further restriction would be not only unnecessary but positively undesirable. It would make it clear that we wished to treat those here as a beleaguered garrison and that we could not bear the thought that they should be joined by even the smallest number of their kind. I do not think that that is the right approach. But even if these further restrictions were desirable, which they are not, the Bill could not possibly be defended on these grounds.
    I thought that both the right hon. Lady the Member for Chislehurst (Dame Patricia Hornsby-Smith) and the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Gurden) were talking about a completely different Bill from that which is before the House. This Bill does not restrict numbers at all, but by means of the so-called patrial Clause—a particularly nasty word to describe a pretty nasty concept—it greatly extends the number in theory by at least 20 million who have a right to come and settle here, but it does so on a highly discriminatory basis. Certainly so far as the million or more Anglo-Indians are concerned, their right to come here may be substantially more than theoretical.
    In relation to numbers the Bill is dealing with a largely non-existent problem but is doing so in such a way that, if there were a problem, it would make it worse. It is designed not to control the number of immigrants, but to try to control the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell). But as his speech this afternoon made clear—one part of his speech was very powerful indeed—it will not succeed in that objective. His appetite feeds on what he is given, and the Home Secretary and the Conservative Party have given him too much already. The right hon. Gentleman made it clear that he would not be satisfied with the Bill unless there were to be a totally different approach to repatriation from that which the Home Secretary described this afternoon.
    The Bill does not even have the negative virtues of irrelevance. Irrelevance is often accompanied by triviality and innocuousness. But not in this case. This is a highly objectionable Bill. It is mis-
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    conceived in principle and damaging in practice, for several major reasons.
    First, it is in my view liable to make not merely every new coloured immigrant or every existing coloured immigrant but also every coloured person born in this country feel less secure, less wanted and less belonging, thus inevitably exacerbating community relations.
    Perhaps on this subject I may quote Mr. Bonham Carter, whom I appointed Chairman of the Race Relations Board in 1966, and whom the Home Secretary appointed Chairman of the Community Relations Commission only two months ago. Mr. Bonham Carter said:
    "I have advised the Secretary of State that the present Bill will adversely affect the establishment of harmonious community relations. It will acutely increase the insecurity which coloured people living here already feel."
    Those are considered words from a man appointed by the present Government within the last two months, directly concerned with this problem and, as I think everyone knowing the problem will agree, a very great expert on the issue and a man who has built up a very great reputation over the past four years.
    How will it do that? It will do so, first, by restricting family right of entry. I am not clear where we stand on this question and I hope that the Minister of State will tell us. The Home Secretary clearly wanted to make some concession this afternoon, though it was quite extraordinary that he did not appreciate that his Rules quite explicitly state the matter beforehand, and even today he appeared to have no understanding of the fact that even if he changes the Rules, the statutory right to bring the family here is still repealed by Schedule. And it is not at all clear whether what he says is that he would change the Rules, which would be something but not enough, or that he would restore the statutory right, because just as he can change the Rules, so they can be changed again in the other direction, and it is not sufficient. There is no doubt at all that the position with the statutory right of entry allowed only by some ill-defined means test is very different from the previous position.
    The second way in which the Bill will exacerbate relations relates to family deportation, where if the head of the family is deported the rest of the family must follow him, too. In many cases it

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    may well be right that this should be so. In many cases I think that in those circumstances the family would choose to follow. But if the family choose to follow, there is no need for this provision. Can it be held that it would be right that within an estranged family a son aged 17, undergoing full-time education here, should be caused to leave the country because his father is deported? Yet that is exactly what is made possible here.
    In dealing with the third way, I must refer to what was said by the hon. Member for Selly Oak about registration with the police. The hon. Gentleman assured us, and was even more stridently supported by the right hon. Lady the Member for Chislehurst, that the police welcomed the provision. Yet the fact is that through their official spokesman the police have made it quite clear that they think it unnecessary, and that shows very good wisdom on their part.
    There is a delicate problem of relations between the coloured community and the police, and there is no doubt at all that this provision is liable to make that problem more difficult. I hope that the Home Secretary will make the small change at which he hinted, that this registration may be done by some other Government agency and not by the police. That would be a marginal improvement, but it does not deal with the main problem dealt with in The Times today by the question: why have registration at all? If we have it, the police must be the enforcement agency, and the whole of the coloured community will be asked, as has not hitherto been the case, whenever they are in trouble with the police or whenever they have an encounter with the police, to prove their right to be here. I have no doubt that this can be a damaging provision.
    Fourth, there is control over employment. I do not think that it is right to admit people on such a restrictive basis that they can hold a particular post—a particular grade of post it would almost be—only with a particular employer. This gives too much power to an employer over the man concerned.
    Fifth, there are the repatriation provisions. The Home Secretary said that they meant practically nothing. The right
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    hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West said that that was totally unacceptable to him, and totally alien, if I may use the word, to Conservative philosophy on the subject as he saw it. What do they mean? Do they mean nothing, in which case they merely promote further insecurity, or are they the thin end of the wedge, as the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West would wish them to be?
    These five ways are only some of the methods by which this unnecessary Bill picks away with a sort of horrible precision at the delicate and thinly growing skin of good community relations in Britain.
    The Bill is bad and harmful from another point of view. It misses a great opportunity to humanise the emergency aliens law passed by the House in a great hurry on the night of 5th August, 1914, and remaining in force ever since, carried on by the Expiring Laws Continuance Act year by year. The very date on which the law was passed gives an indication of the atmosphere in which it was passed and how hurriedly it had to be considered.
    It was a substantial step back from the position of the previous Act of 1905. Indeed, the following words were used by the present Lord Chancellor, the noble Lord, Lord Hailsham, in this House in 1969 about the position of the 1914 Act as continued:
    "In other words, we established one of the less liberal and one of the most arbitrary systems of immigration law in the world—in the civilised world, at any rate."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd January, 1969; Vol. 776, c. 504.]
    Some of that arbitrariness and some of that illiberality was removed—I hope that the Chief Whip will allow the Home Secretary to listen to this, because it is of some importance—or modified by the appeals procedure then introduced, though I should say in fairness that I do not think that the present Lord Chancellor much liked the appeals procedure, mainly, I think, because he wanted a more fundamental change in the law.
    What happens now? The 1969 appeals procedure has been emasculated. The Secretary of State is empowered to deport any non-patrial, whether he be alien or Commonwealth, where he considers that his exclusion or deportation would
    "be conducive to the public good".

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    I cannot add to what the right hon. Gentleman said about the vagueness and sweeping nature of this provision. It gives the widest possible definition, but it means also that because of one case which he has found embarrassing the House Secretary has decided to sweep aside the whole appeals procedure in relation to any security or political case. That seems to be a most extraordinary reaction. In the hands of a Home Secretary more ruthless or more energetic than himself, this procedure could be used most dangerously and most damagingly. It is a totally unacceptable provision as it stands.
    Thus what has been done is to take a bad aliens law—just how bad it was was described by the present Lord Chancellor—to strip it of most of the ameliorating features of the 1969 Act, and to make it the basis for a future combined law for aliens and Commonwealth citizens. I am in favour of a combined law, but not on the basis of the mixture of insensitivity, incompetence and illiberalism which characterises the Bill. The Bill misses the opportunity to get our citizenship law humanely rationalised, which it would certainly be desirable to do before we have to deal with the impact of the Common Market upon it and which it would equally certainly be possible to do.
    This was done by the Americans in 1965 and by the Canadians in 1967. But this Bill goes in the opposite direction. It makes the position less humane and less rational. It makes it less rational because it gives unlimited rights of entry to millions who are not citizens, while giving no right of entry to many who are citizens. I defy the defence of that situation on any grounds of rationality at all.
    This brings me to the so-called patrial Clause and the principle behind it. I think it is wrong. I do not think that a man's relationship with this country is most determined by who his grandfather or his grandmother was. I suppose the most notable non-British grandson of the most notable British grandmother was the Kaiser. But I do not think that his loyalty or attachement to this country or the non-alien nature of his presence here, had he been here, would have been greater by virtue of this fact than, shall
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    we say, that of a mid-1930s Jewish refugee who had been here for only four years and was still waiting for his right of citizenship without any guarantee that it would be available at the end of the period.
    Nor, in practical terms of today, do I think that a man whose grandfather emigrated from this country, whose parents were born and died abroad, and who wishes to come here for the first time is more belonging, has a greater stake in this country, that someone from the rest of the Commonwealth with no racial connection with this country, who has lived and worked here for, say, four and a half years, who has established a home here, who is bringing up his children here but who is still not patrial and cannot under this Bill be certain that he is patrial even when the five years are up.
    Mr. St. John-Stevas: Would the right hon. Gentleman turn his mind back from the reign of Queen Victoria to more recent history? Is not this notion of patrial a direct lineal descendant of the notion of belonging which was introduced in the 1968 Act, prepared when the right hon. Gentleman was Home Secretary, and promulgated by his successor, so that in a very real sense the right hon. Gentleman can claim to be the grandafther of this Measure?
    Mr. Jenkins: No, I do not think that that is so. It was said this afternoon by the Home Secretary that he accepted that Measure, as he certainly did, with reluctance, which my right hon. Friend had introduced with as much reluctance as he had. That was a Bill in which we had, for reasons which were regarded as right by the majority of the House, to introduce restrictions upon entry. But here we are broadening the field to people who have no connection worth speaking of with this country, and doing it on a highly discriminatory basis.
    Nor do I think that it is wise, following up the point which I was making when I was interrupted by the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. JohnStevas), to base our valuation of a man's worth to this country on who his grandfather or his grandmother was. The road along which that policy leads is extremely unacceptable to this side of the House, and I believe to most hon. Members on the other side, too.

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    Of course, it is possible to dismiss all this and many of the other points made by myself and others against the Bill by taking the view that immigrants, and particularly coloured immigrants, are lucky to be here, that if they do not like what they find, if they do not like the way in which we choose to treat them, if they do not like any laws that we make, they can get out. That is a view held, no doubt, by some people, though not, I hope, by many in this House. But there are, perhaps, some more who, while not going the whole way with that view, feel that we can be more careless about immigrants' rights than about those of other people.
    I regard that as a most dangerous and short-sighted view. It is so, first, because, if carried out, it will inevitably blight the future of race relations in this country, to the great danger and detriment of us all, and not by any means merely of the coloured community. But it is so, also, because one cannot separate off the civil liberties of immigrants from those of the rest of the community.
    If we unreasonably impair their rights, if we revert to arbitrariness in dealing with them, as the Home Secretary is here doing, we inevitably impair the whole quality of freedom and tolerance throughout the community. The climate of civil liberty as a whole has to be treated as a whole. One cannot impair half of it without inflicting damage on the whole quality of respect for human rights throughout the nation.
    In the earlier part of his speech this afternoon, the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West was, as I said, most impressive. He almost recalled to me the night when he spoke, from two benches further back, about the Hola Camp. For most of his speech, however, he was less impressive, and many of his speeches outside are less impressive, because he believes otherwise: he believes that the great need is to deal with alien elements, to get rid of them if possible. Only this weekend he was reported as saying that we deceived ourselves if we believed that there were not inevitably alien unassimilable concentrations in the great cities of the North and the Midlands, and he added that he would take the same view if they were of German or of Russian origin.
    I believe that attitude to be based on an extraordinary view of British history.
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    For centuries past, this and every other country which has played a major part in the mainstream of world events has benefited greatly from its immigrants. Apart from those whom we are discussing today, from the Norman Conquest to the wave of Central European immigrants who came here in the 1930s we have constantly been stimulated and jolted out of our natural island lethargy by a whole series of immigrations.
    Those who came, throughout the whole of this sweep of centuries, were always made unwelcome by some, but they rarely failed to make a contribution out of proportion to their numbers. If anyone doubts that, let him look at British business today and at the phenomenal extent to which the most successful companies have been founded or rejuvenated by men whose origins were outside these islands.
    This is not merely a matter of business. Where in the world is there a university which could preserve its fame, a cultural centre which could keep its eminence, or a metropolis which could hold its drawing power, if it were to turn inwards and to serve only its own hinterland and its own racial group? I, therefore, take a less exclusive view than that taken by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West.
    The Bill is the Government's. I do not believe that they can be proud of it. Three major changes have already had to be promised or hinted at in the eleven days since its publication. They show it to be totally ill thought out, but they do not remove the fundamental objections to its irrelevant illiberalism. We shall seek to amend it further. If the Government had any self-respect, they would withdraw it and start again.
    9.30 p.m.
    The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Richard Sharpies): This has been a serious debate. That spirit was carried on by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins). I shall try, so far as possible in the time available, to answer the points raised, including the right hon. Gentleman's very important points.
    I think that the main criticism from both the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) and the right hon. Gentleman has been to question

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    why the Bill is being introduced at all. To see the reason, we need to look back to the 1962 Commonwealth Immigrants Act. Many of us recall the speeches made then by Labour right hon. and hon. Members. The fact is, however, that that Act was considerably strengthened by the Labour Government.
    I thought that that was all history until I listened to the speech of the right hon. Member for Stechford, which was almost exactly of the kind we heard from the Labour benches during the passage of the 1962 Act. That Act did not of itself give power to limit numbers. It gave power to the Government of the day to regulate the inflow from the Commonwealth by controlling the number of work vouchers. I do not think that anyone thought that it was the end of the road. We have only to re-read the speeches in the debates then to see that.
    As my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley (Mr. Hunt) pointed out, we made our position clear in our election manifesto of 1966, when we said, amongst other things, that it was our intention to
    "introduce a conditional entry system which will control the initial time during which a new immigrant may stay, until permission is granted either permanently or for a limited period."
    My right hon. Friend the present Lord Chancellor, speaking in the debate on 8th November, 1966 on the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill carried this a stage further when he said:
    "… it is not necessarily to the advantage of Commonwealth immigrants in this respect to have separate legislation … the whole complex of law should be brought into harmony in a single piece of comprehensive and permanent legislation …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th November, 1966; Vol. 735, c. 1257.]
    We made our position clear again at the last General Election, when we spelled out in our manifesto what we would do, and why. We said that it was necessary to bring the law relating to aliens on to a permanent basis, and I think that it is generally agreed that this should be done. We also said that there was a need for a more realistic system for controlling entry for employment from the Commonwealth, and for a scheme which allowed the Government of the day to base decisions on our own needs and requirements; to take into consideration social and economic conditions, both at local and national level; and to control
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    both the level and the purpose of further immigration, both alien and Commonwealth, in the best interests of those already here, both white and coloured.
    I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley, who said that it would not be to the disadvantage of those seeking to come here that control should be exercised in this way. The Conservative Party has been committed to legislation on these lines since the 1966 election. What I do not understand is why people should complain when we carry out undertakings which we have given.
    I want to turn now to the very important point raised by the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East about the undertaking which was given by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary in respect of wives and children of people already here. My right hon. Friend made it clear that the regulations would be amended but the right hon. Gentleman wanted him to go further and have them incorporated in the Bill. That is a very different attitude from the one which he took when he was giving evidence to the Select Committee on Race Relations and Immigration on 13th May, 1970. I shall quote one sentence and I do not think that in doing so I shall be quoting out of context, because the remainder of what he said was in the same vein. He was asked:
    "Could the Home Secretary … consider whether it is possible to make it a statutory right that the child under 16 whose mother is here or coming here can also come?"
    The key passage from his reply was:
    "I would … be opposed to trying to put a further statutory obligation on the Home Secretary to do this or that; if the policy is clear I would sooner you left it to him to carry it out subject to the normal challenge in Parliament."
    In answer to a subsequent question, he said:
    "I believe that the system under which you leave it to the discretion of the Home Secretary, provided that broad lines of policy are agreed, is likely to ensure a more compassionate and humane approach than if the immigration officers have to administer a rigid code of instructions."
    Mr. Callaghan: That is an entirely different point. What the Bill does—and it is important that hon. Members who have not been here today should understand this—is to take away a statutory right which already exists over

    157
    a wide range of families. I was being asked by the Select Committee, in connection with a small group of young people, whether I would add a statutory right, which did not at that time exist, to the existing administration, which was being conducted to the general satisfaction of the country. That is really a false analogy.
    Mr. Sharpies: I think that the House can draw its own conclusion. The right hon. Gentleman also said this:
    "The Home Secretary has been a little lax in allowing Parliament to take over some functions and try to write them into legislation."
    I do not think that anything alters the fact that the right hon. Gentleman does appear, to some extent at least, to have changed his point of view since then.
    Mr. Callaghan: The hon. Gentleman is not entitled to say that. He knows that, after the leader of his party had made a speech proposing something like this, I went on public record in 1968 as saying that such procedure should not be adopted. The hon. Gentleman is therefore not entitled to say that I have changed my mind. I have been consistent in stating that the statutory provisions should remain, and the hon. Gentleman should withdraw his remark.
    Mr. Sharpies: No, Sir. I think I have quoted the right hon. Gentleman very fairly. What he said is clearly on record.
    I turn now to the criteria for work permits, a subject—
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
    Hon. Members: Sit down.
    Mr. Jenkins: I remind the House that I sat down five minutes before my time. The hon. Gentleman asked me to end my speech at twenty five minutes to ten o'clock.
    This is a point of substance and he has made only a debating point against my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East. Will he now tell us the reply to the question which I put to him specifically about the doubt as to a point in the Home Secretary's speech this afternoon? Is the Home Secretary's new assurance that he will change Rule 37, I think it is, and do nothing more, or is he to restore the statutory right? If he is
    158
    not to restore the statutory right, why is he not to restore it?
    Mr. Sharpies: My right hon. Friend made it clear that he intended to amend the regulations. His assurance did not go beyond that.
    I turn now to the whole question of the criteria for work permits, about which I was asked by a number of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House. Under the present arrangements, there is an overall numerical limit on the number of Commonwealth citizens who can come here to work and to settle. They themselves apply for employment vouchers which are allocated on the basis of a quota.
    Under the Bill, the system is being changed. There will be no more employment vouchers and instead a work permit will be issued on the application of an employer in the United Kingdom who is offering a permit holder a specific job.
    I was asked how we could be sure that the numbers admitted were no more than we need to accept. The answer is that, as with aliens, the number of permits issued will be under the full control of the Department of Employment. In the first four years after entry, a permit holder will be able to change his job only with the approval of the Department of Employment.
    The criteria by which permits are granted or withheld will be for decision by the Government from time to time in the light of changing economic and social conditions and, in particular, as I stressed, of our own needs. In assessing the number of Commonwealth citizens to be admitted when the Bill comes into effect, account will be taken of the future rate of immigration under other heads including aliens and United Kingdom passport holders from East Africa.
    Mr. Bidwell Mr. Bidwell rose—
    Mr. Sharples: I cannot give way now; I have already given way several times.
    The Government intend, particularly in the light of the current employment situation here, to restrict the entry of unskilled and semi-skilled workers from overseas. The detailed application of this policy will depend on a review, now being conducted, of the relation between current intake of overseas workers and this country's manpower needs. It also

    159
    takes account of our special obligations to Malta and our dependent territories. Both are at present allocated special quotas of vouchers which are used mainly by unskilled workers.
    I should like to make it particularly clear that, in view of the unique circumstances in Gibraltar, we have decided that the special arrangements for the entry of Gibraltarians into Britain should continue. There is no need to fear that the work permit system will not be able to withstand pressures from overseas countries or from particular interests and industries in this country. If there are signs of any category of applications getting out of hand, it will be open to the Government to limit the numbers admitted, if necessary by imposing an arbitrary ceiling on applications from any overseas country.
    Mr. Bidwell: On a point of order. The hon. Gentleman is reading his speech which is against the rules of the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Secondly, he has refused to give way on a vital matter concerning work permits and is not bothering to answer the debate at all.
    Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order.
    Mr. Sharples: I was asked particularly to deal with the question of work permits.
    Mr. Tom Driberg: Further to that point of order.
    Hon. Members: It was not a point order. Sit down.
    Mr. Driberg: Shut up, you apes.
    Mr. Speaker: I do not know whom the hon. Member is addressing.
    Mr. Driberg: I hope it will not he thought that I was addressing you, Mr. Speaker. I was momentarily distracted by the hon. Member opposite. I withdraw my remark. I can only say that it was a natural error.
    Further to that point of order—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I have already ruled that it was not a point of order.
    Mr. Driberg: On a point of order. Your predecessors have repeatedly ruled
    160
    that it is not in order to read an entire speech, however badly drafted. It would not be so intolerable if it were well written. Your predecessors have ruled against this.
    Mr. Speaker: I do not think that it should be thought that the Minister has been reading his whole speech.
    Hon. Members: Yes.
    Mr. Sharples: Powers are available under Clause 1(4) and 3(2) to put this right. We have no grounds to suppose that difficulties will arise, but if they do we shall have no hesitation in using the powers available to us under the Bill.
    I turn now to the question of repatriation raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) and by the right hon. Member for Stechford. Clause 29, the repatriation Clause, is an enabling Clause. It gives power to my right hon. Friend to help those people who have no right of abode here to go home to their own countries. Help can only be given to those whose intention it is to reside abroad. I want to make it clear that the powers under the Clause are limited to assistance. There is all the difference between assistance and any kind of compulsion or bribery to go home. It is purely assistance for which power is taken.
    At the moment assistance to return is limited to that which can be given by the Supplementary Benefits Commission within its existing criteria. What my right hon. Friend has in mind is a somewhat wider scheme. There is no question of paying for those who can perfectly well afford to pay their own fares. We intend to devise an effective machinery based on discretion, to prevent abuse by those likely to abuse the system to get a free passage home at the expense of the taxpayer.
    Mr. Loughlin: On a point of order. A moment ago one of my hon. Friends raised with you the question of reading speeches. The Minister has persisted in reading his brief. I put it to you that the submission of his brief to you, to be compared with tomorrow's HANSARD, will bear this out. I appreciate that Ministers have a right to use copious notes, but they have no right to bore this House with read speeches.
    Mr. Speaker: I think the suggestion that Ministers have no right to bore the. House is a remarkable one—however much one may agree with it. [Laughter.] The content of a Minister's speech is not a matter for the Chair. There has been no abuse of order by the Minister so far.
    Mr. Sharples: I hope, if I am allowed to do so, to answer in the few minutes remaining a large number of important points made by right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House.
    We cannot at this stage forecast what will be the number of people or the number of families to be assisted in this way. We cannot tell how many people will want to go home. The only way to find out will be by letting it be known, when we are ready, that we are willing to help. Nor can we tell how many of those who wish to go will be able to pay their own fares. It is not possible to do that until we have examined the number of applications.
    I turn to the very important question of registration with the police. Aliens who are not accepted for permanent settlement have been registering with the police for years. They register with the police when they arrive and in London they register with the Aliens Registration Office. They tell the police about changes concerning where they live and where they work. The police, in this job and in no other, act as agents of the Home Office, which is responsible for enforcing the immigration laws, and for the Department of Employment, which is responsible for the control over employment.
    I have never heard complaints from people about having to notify the police, and many thousands are involved. The vast majority of Commonwealth immigrants will register with the police, because it is in their interests to do so, just as the aliens do. If a policeman wishes to harass somebody, there are plenty of ways by which he can do it. I reject utterly the suggestion of the hon. Lady the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Renée Short) that the police would deliberately go out of their way to harass a coloured immigrant. The police are the most effective agency for the purpose we have in mind. They
    162
    know what needs to be done and they do their work with tact and efficiency.
    It is curious that there should have been a suggestion from the Opposition Front Bench opposing the proposal to register with the police, because paragraph 24 of the 1965 White Paper included these words:
    "The Government"—
    that is, the Labour Government—
    "propose to seek power for an immigration officer to include among the conditions on which a particular Commonwealth citizen is admitted one requiring him to register with the police."
    That was the proposal made in the 1965 White Paper by the then Prime Minister. In other countries, and in some countries from which immigrants come, I appreciate that the police may not have the same reputation as they have in this country.
    My right hon. Friend has said that he is prepared to examine alternative suggestions, but I would not pretend to the House that it will be easy to find an effective alternative. It is essential in the interests of the community and of good relations between the different groups that enforcement of the law about immigration and employment should be effective. If there is to be an alternative, whether for Commonwealth citizens or for both Commonwealth citizens and aliens, it must be at least as effective as that which is proposed in the Bill.
    The Bill strengthens the law relating to illegal immigration. It extends the time limit for taking summary proceedings against illegal immigrants or persons who have contravened their conditions of entry from six months—the normal time limit for summary proceedings—to three years. It also creates the new offence of assisting illegal entry, which is punishable on indictment with up to seven years imprisonment. Thirdly—and this is important in the context of the news in the evening papers today—it enables the court which convicts the owner of a ship, aircraft or vehicle used for illegal immigration to order the forfeiture of that ship, aircraft or vehicle. I believe that the House will welcome these provisions and, in the part of the Bill which deals with illegal immigration, will welcome the emphasis against those people who

    163
    make an income out of exploiting this noxious traffic.
    I want briefly to deal with the question raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West about the large numbers of people who might be able to come here under the patrial provisions. The vast majority of these are in Canada, Australia and New Zealand. They had the right to come here before the 1962 Act, and that right was not exercised at that time. Quite a number of Anglo-Indians came here in 1947, but there is no evidence to
    suggest that vast numbers want to come here at the present time.
    The Bill carries out the undertaking we gave at the General Election; it assures the rights of those already here, irrespective of colour or origin; it establishes a new single system of control for immigration from overseas, and allows us to concentrate on the essential positive aspect of race relations in this country.
    Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time:—
    The House divided: Ayes 295, Noes 265.

    Division No. 229.]

    AYES

    [9.59 p.m.

    Adley, Robert

    Curran, Charles

    HasclTiurst, Alan

    Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Hastings, Stephen

    Allason, James (Hemel Hempsteaa)

    Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

    Havers, Michael

    Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

    Hawkins, Paul

    Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, JamesMaj.-Gen.

    Hay, John

    Astor, John

    Dean, Paul

    Hayhoe, Barney

    Atkins, Humphrey

    Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

    Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

    Awdry, Daniel

    Digby, Simon Wingfield

    Heseltine, Michael

    Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

    Dixon, Piers

    Hicks, Robert

    Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

    Dodds-Parker, Douglas

    Higgins, Terence L.

    Balniel, Lord

    Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

    Hiley, Joseph

    Barber, Rt. Kn. Anthony

    Drayson, G. B.

    Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

    Batsford, Brian

    du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

    Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

    Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

    Dykes, Hugh

    Holland, Philip

    Bell, Ronald

    Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

    Holt, Miss Mary

    Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

    Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

    Hordern, Peter

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

    Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

    Hornby, Richard

    Benyon, W.

    Emery, Peter

    Hornsby-Smith. Rt. Hn. DamePatricia

    Berry, Hn. Anthony

    Farr, John

    Howe, Hn. Sir Geofirey (Reigate)

    Biffen, John

    Fell, Anthony

    Howell, David (Guildford)

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

    Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

    Blaker, Peter

    Fidler, Michael

    Hunt, John

    Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

    Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

    Hutchison, Michael Clark

    Body, Richard

    Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

    Iremongrr, T. L.

    Boscawcn, Robert

    Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Bossom, Sir Clive

    Fookes, Miss Janet

    James, David

    Bowden, Andrew

    Fortescue, Tim

    Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

    Foster, Sir John

    Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

    Bray, Ronald

    Fowler, Norman

    Jessel, Toby

    Brewis, John

    Fox, Marcus

    Johnson Smith, G. E. (E. Grinstead)

    Brinton, Sir Tatton

    Fraser, Rt Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

    Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

    Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

    Fry, Peter

    Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

    Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

    Gatbraith, Hn. T. G.

    Kaberry, Sir Donald

    Bruce-Gardyne, J.

    Gardner, Edward

    Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

    Bryan, Paul

    Gibson-Watt, David

    Kershaw, Anthony

    Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M)

    Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

    Kimball, Marcus

    Buck, Antony

    Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

    King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

    Bullus, Sir Eric

    Glyn, Dr. Alan

    King, Tom (Bridgwater)

    Kinsey, J. R.

    Burden, F. A.

    Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

    Kirk, Peter

    Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

    Goodhart, Philip

    Kitson, Timothy

    Campbell, Rt Hn. G.(Moray & Naim)

    Goodfew, Victor

    Knight, Mrs. Jill

    Carlisle, Mark

    Gorst, John

    Knox, David

    Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

    Gower, Raymond

    Lambton, Antony

    Chapman, Sydney

    Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

    Lane, David

    Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

    Gray, Hamish

    Langford-Holt, Sir John

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Green, Alan

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Churchill, W. S.

    Grieve, Percy

    Le Marchant, Spencer

    Clark William (Surrey, E.)

    Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

    Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

    Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

    Grylls, Michael

    Longden, Gilbert

    Clegg, Walter

    Gummer, Selwyn

    Loveridge, John

    Cockeram, Eric

    Gurden, Harold

    McAdden, Sir Stephen

    Coombs, Derek

    Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

    MacArthur, Sir Stephen

    Cooper, A. E.

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    McCrindle, R. A.

    Cordle, John

    Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

    Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

    Cormack, Patrick

    Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

    McMaster, Stanley

    Costain, A. P.

    Hannam, Jolm (Exeter)

    Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

    Critchley, Julian

    Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

    McNair-Wilson, Michael

    Crouch, David

    Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

    McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

    Crowder, F. P.

    Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

    Madel, David

    Maginnis, John E.

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

    Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

    Prior, Rt. Hn. J. H. L.

    Stokes, John

    Marten, Neil

    Proudfoot, Wilfred

    Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

    Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

    Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

    Sutcliffe, John

    Mawby, Ray

    Quennell, Miss J. M.

    Tapsell, Peter

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

    Raison, Timothy

    Tayior, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)

    Meyer, Sir Anthony

    Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

    Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

    Mills, Peter (Torrington)

    Rawilinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

    Tebbit, Norman

    Miscampbell, Norman

    Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

    Temple, John M.

    Mitchel, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W.)

    Rees, Peter (Dover)

    Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

    Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

    Moate, Roger

    Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

    Tilney, John

    Molyneaux, James

    Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

    Trafford, Dr. Anthony

    Money, Ernie

    Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

    Trew, Peter

    Monks, Mrs. Connie

    Ridsdale, Julian

    Tugendhat, Christopher

    Monro, Hector

    Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

    Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

    Montgomery, Fergus

    Roberto, Wyn (Conway)

    van Straubenzee, W. R.

    Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

    Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

    Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

    Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

    Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

    Vickers, Dame Joan

    Mudd, David

    Rost, Peter

    Waddington, David

    Murton, Oscar

    Russell, Sir Ronald

    Walder, David (Clitheroe)

    Nabarro, Sir Gerald

    St. John-Stevas, Norman

    Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

    Neave, Airey

    Scott, Nicholas

    Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

    Nicholls, Sir Harmer

    Scott-Hopkins, James

    Wall, Patrick

    Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

    Sharpies, Richard

    Walters, Dennis

    Normanton, Tom

    Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

    Ward, Dame Irene

    Nott, John

    Shellon, William (Clapham)

    Warren, Kenneth

    Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

    Simeons, Charles

    Weatherill, Bernard

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Sinclair, Sir George

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Osborn, John

    Skeet, T. H. H.

    Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

    Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

    Smith, Dudley (Wwick & L'mington)

    Wiggin, Jerry

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Soref, Harold

    Wilkinson, John

    Page, John (Harrow, W.)

    Speed, Keith

    Woodnutt, Mark

    Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield. W.)

    Spence, John

    Worsley, Marcus

    Peel, John

    Sproat, Iain

    Wylie, Rt Hn. N. R.

    Percival, Ian

    Stainton, Keith

    Younger, Hn. George

    Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

    Startbrook, Ivor

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

    Pink, R. Bonner

    Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

    Mr. Reginald Eyre and

    Pounder, Rafton

    Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

    Mr. Jasper More.

    Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

    NOES

    Abse, Leo

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Freeson, Reginald

    Albu, Austen

    Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

    Galpern, Sir Myer

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Crawshaw, Richard

    Garrett, W. E.

    Allen, Scholefield

    Cronin, John

    Gilbert, Dr. John

    Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

    Crossman, Rt. Hon. Richard

    Ginsburg, David

    Armstrong, Ernest

    Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

    Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

    Ashley, Jack

    Davidson, Arthur

    Gourlay, Marry

    Ashton, Joe

    Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

    Grant, George (Morpeth)

    Atkinson, Norman

    Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

    Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

    Bagier, Gordon A. T.

    Davies, Ifor (Gower)

    Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

    Barnes, Michael

    Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

    Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

    Barnett, Joel

    Deakins, Eric

    Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.

    Beaney, Alan

    de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

    Gunter, Rt. Hn, R. J.

    Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

    Delargy, H. J.

    Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

    Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

    Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

    Gidwelf, Sydney

    Dempsey, James

    Hamling, William

    Blenkinsop, Arthur

    Doig, Peter

    Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

    Boardman, H. (Leigh)

    Dormand, J. D.

    Hardy, Peter

    Booth, Albert

    Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

    Harper, Joseph

    Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

    Douglas-Mann, Bruce

    Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

    Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

    Driberg, Tom

    Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

    Bradley, Tom

    Duffy, A. E. P.

    Hattersley, Roy

    Broughton, Sir Alfred

    Dunn, James A.

    Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

    Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

    Dunnett, Jack

    Heffer, Eric S.

    Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

    Eadie, Alex

    Horam, John

    Brown, Ronald (Slioreditch & F'bury)

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

    Buchan, Norman

    Edwards, William (Merioneth)

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

    Ellis, Tom

    Huckfield, Leslie

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    English, Michael

    Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

    Evans, Fred

    Hughes, Mary (Durham)

    Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, w.)

    Faulds, Andrew

    Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

    Cant, R. B.

    Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

    Hughes, Roy (Newport)

    Carmichael, Neil

    Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B' ham, Lady wood)

    Hunter, Adam

    Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

    Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

    Irvine, Rt. Hn. SirArthur (Edge Hill)

    Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

    Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

    Janner, Grevillo

    Clark, David (Colne Valley)

    Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

    Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

    Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

    Foley, Maurice

    Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.)

    Cohen, Stanley

    Foot, Michael

    Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

    Concannon, J. D.

    Forrester, John

    Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

    Conlan, Bernard

    Fraser, John (Norwood)

    John, Brynmor

    166

    167

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Millan, Bruce

    Sillars, James

    Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

    Miller, Dr. M. S.

    Silverman, Julius

    Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

    Milne, Edward (Cly-.h)

    Skinner, Dennis

    Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

    Molloy, William

    Small, William

    Jones, Dan (Burnley)

    Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

    Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

    Jones.Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

    Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

    Spearing, Nigel

    Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

    Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

    Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

    Stallard, A. W.

    Judd, Frank

    Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

    Ete:l, David

    Kaufman, Gerald

    Murray, R. K.

    Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

    Kelley, Richard

    Ogden, Eric

    Stoddart, David (Swindon)

    Kerr, Russell

    O'Halloran, Michael

    Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

    Kinnock, Neil

    O'Malley, Brian

    Strang, Gavin

    Lambie, David

    Oram, Bert

    Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

    Lamond, James

    Orbach, Maurice

    Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

    Latham, Arthur

    Orme, Stanley

    Taverne, Dick

    Lawson, George

    Oswald, Thomas

    Thomas. Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)

    Leadbitter, Ted

    Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

    Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

    Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

    Paget, R. T.

    Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

    Leonard, Dick

    Palmer, Arthur

    Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

    Lestor, Miss Joan

    Pardoe, John

    Tinn, James

    Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

    Parker, John (Dagenham)

    Tomney, Frank

    Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

    Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

    Torney, Tom

    Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

    Pavitt, Laurie

    Tuck, Raphael

    Lipton, Marcus

    Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

    Urwin, T. W.

    Loughlin, Charles

    Pendry, Tom

    Vaney, Eric G.

    Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

    Pentland, Norman

    Wainwright, Edwin

    Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

    Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

    Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Prescott, John

    Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

    McBride, Neil

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    Wallace, George

    McCartney, Hugh

    Price, William (Rugby)

    Watkins, David

    McElhone, Frank

    Probert, Arthur

    Weitzman, David

    McGuire, Michael

    Rankin, John

    Wellbeloved, James

    Mackenzie, Gregor

    Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

    Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

    Mackie, John

    Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

    White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

    Maclennan, Robert

    Rhodes, Geoffrey

    Whitehead, Phillip

    McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

    Richard, Ivor

    Whitlock, William

    McNamara, J. Kevin

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

    MacPherson, Malcolm

    Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)

    Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

    Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

    Robertson, John (Paisley)

    Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Roderick, Caerwyn E. (Br'c'n & R'dnor)

    Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

    Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

    Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

    Marquand, David

    Roper, John

    Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

    Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Rose, Paul B.

    Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

    Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

    Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

    Woof, Robert

    Mayhew, Christopher

    Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

    Meacher, Michael

    Short, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Meffish, Rt. Hn. Robert

    Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

    Mr. Donald Coleman and

    Mendelson, John

    Short, Mrs. Ren¹e (W'hampton, N.E.)

    Mr. John Golding.

    Mikardo, Ian

    Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

    Bill accordingly read a Second time.
    Motion made and Question Put. That the Bill he committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. Callaghan.]:—
    The House divided: Ayes 263, Noes 296.

    Division No. 230.]

    AYES

    [10.12 p.m.

    Abse, Leo

    Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

    Davidson, Arthur

    Albu, Austen

    Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

    Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

    Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

    Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

    Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

    Allen, Scholefield

    Buchan, Norman

    Davies, Ifor (Gower)

    Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

    Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

    Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

    Armstrong, Ernest

    Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

    Deakins, Eric

    Ashley, Jack

    Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

    de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

    Ashton, Joe

    Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

    Delargy, H. J.

    Atkinson, Norman

    Cant, R. B.

    Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

    Bagier, Gordon A. T.

    Carmichael, Neil

    Dempsey, James

    Barnes, Michael

    Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

    Doig, Peter

    Barnett, Joel

    Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

    Dormand, J. D.

    Beaney, Alan

    Clark, David (Colne Valley)

    Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

    Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

    Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

    Douglas-Mann, Bruce

    Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

    Cohen, Stanley

    Driberg, Tom

    Bidwell, Sydney

    Concannon, J. D.

    Duffy, A. E. P.

    Blenkinsop, Arthur

    Conlan, Bernard

    Dunn, James A.

    Boardman, H. (Leigh)

    Corbet, Mrs. Freda

    Dunnett, Jack

    Booth, Albert

    Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, c.)

    Eadie, Alex

    Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

    Crawshaw, Richard

    Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

    Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

    Cronin, John

    Edwards, William (Merioneth)

    Bradley, Tom

    Crossman, Rt, Hn. Richard

    Ellis, Tom

    Broughton, Sir Alfred

    Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

    English, Michael

    Evans, Fred

    Lawson, George

    Rankin, John

    Faulds, Andrew

    Leadbitter, Ted

    Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

    Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

    Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

    Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

    Fisber, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Lady wood)

    Leonard, Dick

    Rhodes, Geoffrey

    Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

    Lestor, Miss Joan

    Richard, Ivor

    Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

    Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

    Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

    Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

    Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

    Robertson, John (Paisley)

    Foley, Maurice

    Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

    Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n & R'dnor)

    Foot, Michael

    Lipton, Marcus

    Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

    Forrester, John

    Loughlin, Charles

    Roper, John

    Fraser, John (Norwood)

    Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

    Rose, Paul B.

    Freeson, Reginald

    Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

    Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

    Galpern, Sir Myer

    Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

    Sheldon, Robert(Ashton-under-Lyne)

    Garrett, W. E.

    McBride, Neil

    Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

    Gilbert, Dr. John

    McCartney, Hugh

    Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

    Ginsburg, David

    McElhone, Frank

    Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N.E.)

    Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

    McGuire, Michael

    Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

    Gourlay, Harry

    Mackenzie, Gregor

    Sillars, James

    Grant, George (Morpeth)

    Mackie, John

    Silverman, Julius

    Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

    Maclennan, Robert

    Skinner, Dennis

    Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

    McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

    Small, William

    Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

    McNamara, J. Kevin

    Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

    Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J.

    MacPherson, Malcolm

    Spearing, Nigel

    Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

    Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

    Spriggs, Leslie

    Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

    Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

    Stallard, A. W.

    Hamling, William

    Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

    Steel, David

    Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

    Marquand, David

    Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

    Hardy, Peter

    Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

    Stoddart, David (Swindon)

    Harper, Joseph

    Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

    Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

    Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

    Mayhew, Christopher

    Strang, Gavin

    Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

    Meacher, Michael

    Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

    Hattersley, Roy

    Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

    Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

    Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

    Mendelson, John

    Taverne, Dick

    Heffer, Eric S.

    Mikardo, Ian

    Thomas, Rt. Hn. George(Cardiff, W.)

    Horam, John

    Millan, Bruce

    Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

    Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

    Miller, Dr. M. S.

    Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

    Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

    Milne, Edward (Blyth)

    Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

    Huckfield, Leslie

    Molloy, William

    Tinn, James

    Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

    Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

    Tomney, Frank

    Hughes, Mark (Durham)

    Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

    Torney, Tom

    Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

    Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

    Tuck, Raphael

    Hughes, Roy (Newport)

    Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

    Urwin, T. W.

    Hunter, Adam

    Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

    Varley, Eric G.

    Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

    Murray, R. K.

    Wainwright, Edwin

    Janner, Greville

    Ogden, Eric

    Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

    Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

    O'Halloran, Michael

    Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

    Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St.P'cras,S.)

    O'Malley, Brian

    Wallace, George

    Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

    Oram, Bert

    Watkins, David

    Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechtord)

    Orbach, Maurice

    Weitzman, David

    John, Brynmor

    Orme, Stanley

    Wellbeloved, James

    Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

    Oswald, Thomas

    Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

    Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

    Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

    White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

    Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

    Paget, R. T.

    Whitehead, Phillip

    Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

    Palmer, Arthur

    Whitlock, William

    Jones, Dan (Burnley)

    Pardee, John

    Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

    Jones. Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

    Parker, John (Dagenham)

    Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

    Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

    Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

    Williams Shirlev (Hitchin)

    Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

    Pavitt, Laurie

    Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

    Judd, Frank

    Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

    Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

    Kaufman, Gerald

    Pendry, Tom

    Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

    Kelley, Richard

    Pentland, Norman

    Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

    Kerr, Russell

    Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

    Woof, Robert

    Kinnock, Neil

    Prescott, John

    Lambie, David

    Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

    TELLERS EOR THE AYES:

    Lamond, James

    Price, William (Rugby)

    Mr. Donald Coleman and

    Latham, Arthur

    Probert, Arthur

    Mr. John Golding.

    NOES

    Adley, Robert

    Bell, Ronald

    Bray, Ronald

    Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

    Bennett, Sir Frederick (Torquay)

    Brewis, John

    Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

    Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

    Brinton, Sir Tatton

    Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

    Benyon, W.

    Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

    Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

    Berry, Hn. Anthony

    Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

    Astor, John

    Biffen, John

    Bruce-Gardyne, J.

    Atkins, Humphrey

    Biggs-Davison, John

    Bryan, Paul

    Awdry, Daniel

    Blaker, Peter

    Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M)

    Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

    Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

    Buck, Antony

    Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

    Body, Richard

    Bullus, Sir Eric

    Balniel, Lord

    Boscawen, Robert

    Burden, F. A.

    Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

    Bossom, Sir Clive

    Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

    Batsford, Brian

    Bowden, Andrew

    Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray & Nairn)

    Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

    Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

    Carlisle, Mark

    170

    171

    Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

    Heseltine, Michael

    Cwen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

    Chapman, Sydney

    Hicks, Robert

    Page, Graham (Crosby)

    Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

    Higgins, Terence L.

    Page, John (Harrow, W.)

    Chichester-Clark, R.

    Hiley, Joseph

    Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

    Churchill, W. S.

    Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

    Peel, John

    Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

    Hit, James (Southampton, Test)

    Percival, Ian

    Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

    Holland, Philip

    Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

    Clegg, Walter

    Holt, Miss Mary

    Pike, Miss Mervyn

    Cockeram, Eric

    Hordern, Peter

    Pink, R. Bonner

    Coombs, Derek

    Hornby, Richard

    Pounder, Rafton

    Cooper, A. E.

    Homsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia

    Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

    Cordle, John

    Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

    Price, David (Eastleigh)

    Cormack, Patrick

    Howell, David (Guildford)

    Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

    Costain, A. P.

    Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

    Proudfoot, Wilfred

    Critchley, Julian

    Hunt, John

    Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

    Crouch, David

    Hutchison, Michael Clark

    Quennell, Miss J. M.

    Crowder, F. P.

    Iremonger, T. L.

    Raison, Timothy

    Curran, Charles

    Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

    Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

    Dalkeith, Ear! of

    James, David

    Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

    Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

    Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

    Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Arthur

    Jennings, J. C. (Burion)

    Rees, Peter (Dover)

    d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, JamesMaj.-Gen

    Jessel, Toby

    Rees-Davies, W. R.

    Dean, Paul

    Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

    Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

    Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

    Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

    Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

    Digby, Simon Wingfield

    Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

    Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

    Dixon, Piers

    Kaberry, Sir Donald

    Ridsdale, Julian

    Dodds-Parker, Douglas

    Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

    Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

    Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

    Kershaw, Anthony

    Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

    Drayson, G. B.

    Kimball, Marcus

    Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

    du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

    King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

    Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

    Dykes, Hugh

    King, Tom (Bridgwater)

    Rost, Peter

    Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

    Kinsey, J. R.

    Russell, Sir Ronald

    Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

    Kirk, Peter

    St. John-Stevas, Norman

    Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.:

    Kitson, Timothy

    Scott, Nicholas

    Emery, Peter

    Knight, Mrs. Jill

    Scott-Hopkins, James

    Farr, John

    Knox, David

    Sharpies, Richard

    Fell, Anthony

    Lambton, Antony

    Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

    Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

    Lane, David

    Shelton, William (Clapham)

    Fidler, Michael

    Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

    Simeons, Charles

    F'nsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

    L Merchant, Spencer

    Sinclair, Sir George

    Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

    Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

    Skeet, T. H. H.

    Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

    Longden, Gilbert

    Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

    Fookes, Miss Janet

    Loveridge, John

    Soref, Harold

    Fortescue, Tim

    McAdden, Sir Stephen

    Speed, Keith

    Foster, Sir John

    MacArthur, Ian

    Spence, John

    Fowler, Norman

    McCrindle, R. A.

    Sproat, Iain

    Fox, Marcus

    Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

    Stainton, Keith

    Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

    McMaster, Stanley

    Stanbrook, Ivor

    Fry, Peter

    MacmilIan, Maurice (Farnham)

    Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

    Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

    McNair-Wilson, Michael

    Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

    Gardner, Edward

    McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

    Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

    Gibson-Watt, David

    Maddan, Martin

    Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

    Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

    Madel, David

    Stokes, John

    Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

    Maginnis, John E.

    Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

    Glyn, Dr. Alan

    Marples, Rt. Hn. Emest

    Sutcliffe, John

    Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

    Marten, Neil

    Tapsell, Peter

    Goodhart, Philip

    Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

    Taylor, EdwardM. (G'gow. Cathcart)

    Goodhew, Victor

    Mawby, Ray

    Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

    Gorst, John

    Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

    Tebbitt, Norman

    Gower, Raymond

    Meyer, Sir Anthony

    Temple, John M.

    Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

    Mills, Peter (Torrington)

    Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

    Gray, Hamish

    Miscampbell, Norman

    Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

    Green, Alan

    Mitchell, Lt. Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)

    Tilney, John

    Grieve, Percy

    Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

    Trafford, Dr. Anthony

    Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

    Moate, Roger

    Trew, Peter

    Grylls, Michael

    Molyneaux, James

    Gummcr, Selwyn

    Money, Ernie

    Tugendhat, Christopher

    Gurden, Harold

    Monks, Mrs. Connie

    Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

    Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

    Monro, Hector

    van Straubenzee, W. R.

    Hall, John (Wycombe)

    Montgomery, Fergus

    Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

    Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

    Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

    Vickers, Dame Joan

    Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

    Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

    Waddington, David

    Hannam, John (Exeter)

    Mudd, David

    Walder, David (Clitheroe)

    Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

    Murton, Oscar

    Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

    Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

    Nabarro, Sir Gerald

    Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

    Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

    Neave, Airey

    Wall, Patrick

    Haselhurst, Alan

    Nicholls, Sir Harmar

    Walters, Dennis

    Hastings, Stephen

    Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

    Ward, Dame Irene

    Havers, Michael

    Normanton, Tom

    Warren, Kenneth

    Hawkins, Paul

    Nott, John

    Weatherill, Bernard

    Hay, John

    Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

    Wells, John (Maidstone)

    Hayhoe, Barney

    Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

    Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

    Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

    Osborn, John

    Wiggin, Jerry

    172

    173

    Wilkinson, John

    Worsley, Marcus

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

    Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

    Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

    Mr. Reginald Eyre and

    Woodnutt, Mark

    Younger, Hn. George

    Mr. Jasper More.

    Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

  IMMIGRATION [MONEY]
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Motion made, and Question put,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend and replace the present immigration laws, to make certain related changes in the citizenship law and to enable help to be given to those wishing to return abroad, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any expenses incurred by a Secretary of State under or by virtue of that Act
  (a) by way of administrative expenses (including any additional expenses under the British Nationality Acts 1948 to 1965 which are attributable to changes in the citizen ship law);
  (b) in connection with the removal from the United Kingdom of persons not permitted to enter or remain or ordered to be deported, or the departure with such persons of their dependants and the maintenance of such persons and their dependants pending departure;
  (c) in connection with the continuance for the purpose of appeals under the Act, of the Immigration Appeal Tribunal and adjudicators provided for by the Immigration Appeals Act 1969;
  (d) in making grants to voluntary organisations helping persons who are by the Act given rights of appeal to the Tribunal or an adjudicator;
  (e) in making payments to or for the benefit, of persons subject to the control on immigration in order to meet or provide for their expenses in leaving the United Kingdom to live permanently abroad, including travelling expenses for members of their families or households.—[Mr. Patrick Jenkin.]:—
  The House divided: Ayes 287, Noes 263.

  Division No. 231.]

  AYES

  [10.24 p.m.

  Adley, Robert

  Churchill, W. S.

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Gardner, Edward

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Clegg, Walter

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Cockeram, Eric

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Coombs, Derek

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  Awdry, Daniel

  Cooper, A. E.

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Cordle, John

  Goodhart, Philip

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Cormack, Patrick

  Gorst, John

  Balniel, Lord

  Costain, A. P.

  Gower, Raymond

  Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Critchley, Julian

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Batsford, Brian

  Crouch, David

  Gray, Hamish

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Crowder, F. P.

  Green, Alan

  Bell, Ronald

  Curran, Charles

  Grieve, Percy

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

  Grylls, Michael

  Benyon, W.

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, JamesMaj.-Gen.

  Gurden, Harold

  Biffen, John

  Dean, Paul

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Blaker, Peter

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Dixon, Piers

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Body, Richard

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Hannan, John (Exeter)

  Boscawen, Robert

  Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Drayson, G. B.

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Bowden, Andrew

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Dykes, Hugh

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Bray, Ronald

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Hastings, Stephen

  Brewis, John

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Havers, Michael

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Emery, Peter

  Hawkins, Paul

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Eyre, Reginald

  Hay, John

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Farr, John

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Bruce-Gartlyne, J.

  Fell, Anthony

  Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Bryan, Paul

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Heseitine, Michael

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick(Angus,N&M)

  Fidler, Michael

  Hicks, Robert

  Buck, Antony

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Hiley, Joseph

  Burden, F. A.

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  Fortescue, Tim

  Holland, Philip

  Carlisle, Mark

  Foster, Sir John

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Fowler, Norman

  Hordern, Peter

  Chapman, Sydney

  Fox, Marcus

  Hornby, Richard

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Fras5r,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

  Chichester-Clark, R,

  Fry, Peter

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Monro, Hector

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Simeons, Charles

  Hunt, John

  More, Jasper

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Mudd, David

  Soref, Harold

  James, David

  Murton, Oscar

  Speed, Keith

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Spence, John

  Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

  Neave, Airey

  Sproat, Iain

  Jessel, Toby

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  Stainton, Keith

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Joseph, Rt. Hn, Sir Keith

  Normanton, Tom

  Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Nott, John

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Kimball, Marcus

  Osborn, John

  Stokes, John

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Sutcliffe, John

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Taylor, Edward M.(G'gow, Cathcart)

  Kirk, Peter

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  Kitson, Timothy

  Peel, John

  Tebbit, Norman

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Percival, Ian

  Temple, John M.

  Knox, David

  Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Lane, David

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Pounder, Rafton

  Tilney, John

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J, Enoch

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Trew, Peter

  Longden, Gilbert

  Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Loveridge, John

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  MacArthur, Ian

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Raison, Timothy

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Waddington, David

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Maddan, Martin

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Wall, Patrick

  Madel, David

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Walters, Dennis

  Maginns, John E.

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Marten, Neil

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Warren, Kenneth

  Maudling, Rt. Hn. Reginald

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Mawby, Ray

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Maxwelf-Hyslop, R. J.

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Wilkinson, John

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Rost, Peter

  Worsley, Marcus

  Mitchell, Lt. -Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Younger, Hn. George

  Moate, Roger

  Scott, Nicholas

  Molyneaux, James

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Money, Ernie

  Sharpies, Richard

  Mr. Bernard Weatherill and

  Monks, Mrs. Connie

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Mr. Victor Goodhew.

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Doig, Peter

  Albu, Austen

  Cailaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Dormand, J. D.

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Allen, Scholefield

  Cant, R. B.

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Driberg, Tom

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Ashley, Jack

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Dunn, James A.

  Ashton, Joe

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Atkinson, Norman

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Eadie, Alex

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Cohen, Stanley

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Barnes, Michael

  Concannon, J. D.

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Barnett, Joel

  Conlan, Bernard

  Ellis, Tom

  Beaney, Alan

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  English, Michael

  Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, c.)

  Evans, Fred

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Faulds, Andrew

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Cronin, John

  Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham, Lady wood)

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Booth, Albert

  Davidson, Arthur

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Foley, Maurice

  Bradley, Tom

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Foot, Michael

  Broughton, Sir Alfred

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Forrester, John

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

  Deakins, Eric

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Freeson, Reginald

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch&F'bury)

  Delargy, H. J.

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Buchan, Norman

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Garrett, W. E.

  Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

  Dempsey, James

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  176

  177

  Ginsburg, David

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Gourlay, Harry

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Roderick, CaerwynE.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  McBride, Neil

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Roper, John

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  McElhone, Frank

  Rose, Paul 6.

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  McGuire, Michael

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J.

  Mackie, John

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Maclerman, Robert

  Short,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyine)

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton,N.E.)

  Hamling, William

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  MacPherson, Malcolm

  Sillars, James

  Hardy, Peter

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Silverman, Julius

  Harper, Joseph

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Small, William

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Marquand, David

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Spearing, Nigel

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Horam, John

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Stallard, A. W.

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Meacher, Michael

  Steel, David

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Mendelson, John

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Millan, Bruce

  Strang, Gavin

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Miller, Dr. M. 8.

  Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Summer-skill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Hunter, Adam

  Molloy, William

  Taverne, Dick

  Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)

  Janner, Greville

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n&St.P'cras,S.)

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Tinn, James

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Murray, R. K.

  Tomney, Frank

  John, Brynmor

  Ogden, Eric

  Torney, Tom

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Tuck, Raphael

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  O'Malley, Brian

  Urwin, T. W.

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  Oram, Bert

  Varley, Eric G.

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  Orbach, Maurice

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Orme, Stanley

  Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn(W.Ham, S.)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Wallace, George

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Paget, R. T.

  Watkins, David

  Judd, Frank

  Palmer, Arthur

  Weitzman, David

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Pardee, John

  Wellbeloved, James

  Kelley, Richard

  Parker, John (Dagenham)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Kerr, Russell

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Kinnock, Nell

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Lambie, David

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Whitlock, William

  Lamond, James

  Pendry, Tom

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Latham, Arthur

  Pentland, Norman

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Lawson, George

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Prescott, John

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Leonard, Dick

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Lestor, Miss Joan

  Probert, Arthur

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

  Rankin, John

  Woof, Robert

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Lipton, Marcus

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Mr. Donald Coleman and

  Loughlin, Charles

  Richard, Ivor

  Mr. John Golding.

  SCHOOL MEALS
  10.33 p.m.
  Miss Joan Lestor: I beg to move,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Provision of Milk and Meals (Amendment) Regulations 1971 (S.I., 1971, No. 169), dated 1st February, 1971, a copy of which was laid before this House on 9th February, be annulled.
  The White Paper relating to school meals stated that the aim was that the charge should eventually cover the running costs. Therefore, tonight we are opposing these Regulations, the first of many which we shall oppose, because the cost of school meals, which eventually is to be covered by the parents, will increase as prices rise.
  Before hon. Members opposite say "You did it first", let me emphasise that there is a difference of principle between the two sides of the House. We increased the price of school meals, but we kept the subsidy steady because we felt that the subsidy, the investment in our children, which was roughly one-third of the cost of the school meals, was very worth while since it guaranteed a certain level of nutritional value to children receiving school meals. If the cost of the school meal is ultimately to be met in full by the parent, the whole principle of the subsidy is removed.
  I know that provision has been made to alter the level of entitlement so that more children will be entitled to a free school meal, but I am not at all clear—I take this from an answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher)—whether the children of parents receiving family income supplement will automaticaly receive a free school meal or whether the parents will have to go through the process of filling up yet another form. However, it is true that more children will be entitled to free school meals.
  The problem, as all hon. Members realise, is that the take-up of free school meals is never satisfactory. It varies from area to area, and, although one may cite an overall figure of take-up, an examination of the position in certain areas shows unsatisfactory variations.
  180
  The Government have said that they intend to continue, with, perhaps, extra effort, to make entitlement known to parents, but I do not believe that knowledge of entitlement, although it plays a big part in many other benefits, is really what determines parents to allow their children to accept free school meals. One of the great problems is the humiliation and the "lame duck" feeling which goes with a child's application to have a free school meal. This is so no matter how careful teachers are in handling this matter. Most teachers are very careful about it, although one has had instances from time to time of such care not being taken. Nevertheless, although most teachers are aware of the problem and take care, the fact remains that a child knows that it is in receipt of a free school meal, and this is one of the biggest inhibiting factors which we have to face.
  I am sure that I speak for many of my hon. Friends when I say that the time has come for us all to reconsider the system whereby the act of payment for a school meal takes place in the school and involves the child. We must devise another scheme so that humiliation to the "free dinner" child is avoided. I have put suggestions to the Department of Education and Science, and it has examined them. True, it has not exactly cheered my suggestions, but the dialogue will go on. If the Government intend continually to raise the price of school meals, and if more and more children are to be entitled to free school meals, something must he done about the embarassment and humiliation caused to children receiving free meals. Many, no doubt, will take them and will suffer the embarrassment which is caused.
  That is just one part of our objection to these Regulations. Another objection, which is, perhaps, even more important, is that many children not entitled to a free school meal but whose parents are not really able to afford to pay will cease to have school meals. This has happened every time there has been an increase in price, and, if the increases are to grow larger, the number of children on the borderline, so to speak, will grow and the number dropping out will inevitably increase.

  181
  This point is made by the Inner London Education Authority, which communicated to me its resolution expressing opposition to the proposed increased charges for school meals, basing its opposition on the fear that more such children will drop out because they will not be entitled to a free school meal and their parents will not be able to afford to pay or will not be inclined to pay for the school meal.
  It may not have occurred to the Minister that if more and more children continue to stop taking school meals for which they have been paying, as I believe will happen, the overheads will fall on an increasingly smaller number of children, and those overheads alter only very little with the numbers. This will again mean an increase in price, if it is to be related to cost. If there is no subsidy, which is the aim indicated in the White Paper, the increases will be larger.
  The basic fear concerns the diet of children. What happens to those who do not have a school lunch, whether free or one for which they choose not to pay? How many will be affected? It is very difficult to make an estimate, because this varies in different parts of the country. An estimate was made in 1969 by Bleddyn Davies and Mike Reddin, which was reported in New Society. They estimated that with an increase of nine old pence there would be a 600,000 drop-out of children taking school meals. This was based on what happened before when the price went up. The new increase is 1s. 1d., or 5p, and on that basis nearly 1 million children will drop out.
  Mr. John Hall: How many of those children who dropped out when the increase was made came back later?
  Miss Lestor: I am not saying that this has happened yet. It is true that some come back. The estimate in 1969, revived in relation to the proposals in the Regulations, is that 1 million will drop out—[Interruption.]—1 million net. There is no indication that any of those will come back. It is true that areas vary. In some areas none of the children who drop out come back, for understandable reasons, while in others some children return after a period.
  I hope that the Government have made an estimate showing that this drop-out is not likely to happen, though I do not
  182
  believe that they have. All the evidence I have collected shows that every time there is an increase there is a falling off, that this becomes greater as the increase becomes greater, and that the return to taking school meals is very closely related to the financial situation of those concerned.
  Mr. Frank Allaun: I appreciate very much the important point my hon. Friend is making. Does she agree that it is precisely in the poorest areas, such as the industrial slums, that fewer come back?
  Miss Lestor: I was going to make that point. One of the biggest difficulties is that the areas thus affected are those where the social environment is very poor. It is interesting to note that in parts of Liverpool the figures dropped by 5,000 between March, 1968, and September, 1970.
  The most serious aspect is the nutritional effects on children which are now beginning to come to light as a result of a report by Queen Elizabeth College of London University. In September, 1970, it issued its interim report. Many of us fail to appreciate the degree of diet deficiency, and the fact that the changes that have taken place over the years do not necessarily mean that children are receiving the sort of diet that they should receive. What comes out of the report is the vitally important fact that, generally speaking, the children who appeared to be receiving a good or satisfactory diet were the ones who were taking school lunches, whether free or paid for.
  The report showed that for the cross-section of the community dealt with 32 per cent. of the children received a good or satisfactory diet, 57 per cent. an unsatisfactory diet and 11 per cent. an extremely poor diet. In the North—one of the best areas—46 per cent. received a satisfactory diet, whereas in the South-East and the South-West—one of the worst areas—only 28 per cent. received a satisfactory diet.
  The report also indicated that in many areas the dietary deficiency in secondary school children was much worse than in primary school children, and that, contrary to what many hon. Members believed, many children had no breakfast before going to school. The figures were 15 per cent. in the North, 21 per cent. in

  183
  Wales, and roughly 1 in 5 in the South-East.
  That tells us a great deal. If these children are not having satisfactory breakfasts and what is estimated will happen comes about, a sizeable minority of children will go through the day deprived of an adequate amount of food, perhaps until they go home in the evening. The survey showed that those children who had a satisfactory diet were those who took school lunches, but also that many of those whose diets were found to be unsatisfactory, and even those who had no breakfast, also missed an evening meal. Less than half—43 per cent.—were satisfactory, and 13 per cent. were very poor, the rest coming somewhere in the middle.
  On the basis of that survey it is clear that we face a very serious problem. Despite the enormous improvements in the health and well-being of many of our children, a sizeable minority are not benefiting from our present knowledge of health and diet.
  I am sure that the Minister will have read the report. I suggest that in the light of its findings and the serious gaps that it shows to exist in the diets of many children who do not have a school meal, the Minister should be prepared to consider the matter again and see whether some other arrangements cannot be made to make sure that our children receive an adequate school lunch.
  I turn to the question of milk. Children who reach the age of 7 will lose the benefit of free milk. Incidentally, the position of the pre-school child—the child who is at a nursery school, or in a play group or a day nursery—is a very peculiar one. It will continue to be eligible for its one-third of a pint of milk. Until now, children at home with mother—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): This part of what the hon. Lady is saying does not come into the Regulations.
  Miss Lestor: With great respect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Regulations refer to milk and meals.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. William van Straubenzee): Would it assist, Mr.
  184
  Deputy Speaker, if I respectfully confirmed what you have said? That may help the hon. Lady and allow those who wish to take part in the debate to know what the position is. No doubt the hon. Lady has been misled by the terminology, but legislation is necessary to deal with the changes in school milk supplies and such legislation would, of course, have to come before the House.
  Miss Lestor: Milk is mentioned in the Regulations, which are the Provision of Milk and Meals (Amendment) Regulations, 1971. This is directly related to the difficulties with school meals, and I wanted—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: There is nothing about milk in the Regulations.
  Mr. Denis Howell: On a point of order. Surely my hon. Friend is entitled to draw attention to the combined effect of these two changes, even if they are brought before us separately. It is impossible to deal with the dietary and nutritional effects of meals without mentioning the loss of milk to children in primary schools.
  Mr. Stanley Orme: On a point of order. The Regulations are entitled Provision of Milk and Meals (Amendment) Regulations. There is a clear reference to milk. Surely we are in order in debating the issue of the loss of milk in primary schools.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: There is a misapprehension about this. I am quite clear about it. The Regulations are about meals. Although the provision of milk is mentioned in the title, the provision of milk is not mentioned in the Regulations. I must ask the hon. Lady to confine her remarks to meals.
  Mr. Alan Williams: On a point of order. Is it the logic of your Ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that all those parts of my hon. Friend's speech referring to meals which are not taken in schools were out of order? Are you suggesting that whether children are having breakfast is irrelevant to deciding whether they should have meals at school? If you are not ruling that out of order, ought not my hon. Friend to be allowed to develop her argument on nutritional grounds, and is not milk part of a meal and part of a diet?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I am bound by the rules in these matters. The Regulations deal with meals and not with milk as such. The debate must therefore be confined to meals.
  Mr. Edward Short: On a point of order. These are Regulations made by the Secretary of State under two Acts, one being the Education (School Milk) Act, 1970. As that is one of the sources of the Secretary of State's power to make these Regulations, are we not entitled to discuss that source?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: No. I cannot help the right hon. Gentleman all that much. I am bound by the terms of the Regulations, and that is all we can deal with tonight. I fully appreciate the difficulty in which hon. Members find themselves, but those are the rules to which the House always adheres when discussing Prayers.
  Mr. Alan Williams: Further to my point of order. My hon. Friend will be in serious difficulty if she is asked to confine her remarks to meals which are part of formal school meal provision. Is she not allowed to speak about general dietary provision? I am sure that the House understands your predicament, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but it does not understand the contemptible willingness of the Under-Secretary to skulk behind procedural protection to avoid discussing such a matter.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: Further to that point of order. Are you therefore ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that milk is not a food? My hon. Friend was about to explain that milk is a food, and I would suggest with great respect that she is right.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I am desperately anxious to help the hon. Lady if I can. I think she can use this as a background to what she is saying, but the Regulations do not relate to milk as such. I will ask her to use her discretion and I will do my best to be as lenient as possible.
  Miss Lestor: I can assure you Mr. Deputy Speaker, that I will be the soul of discretion in discussing the food properties of milk. I know of no advice taken by the Government as to the likely effect of the combined withdrawal of school
  186
  milk from primary schools and the reduction in the number of children eligible for school meals. It has been estimated that 18 per cent. of primary schoolchildren are deficient in calcium and the withdrawal of school milk will increase that percentage. We all know that the N.U.T. is not keen to sell milk in schools. I suggest that a combination of these facts will lead to a further loss of nutrition and must be taken into account.
  We now know a great deal more about patterns of nutrition in children. It is clear that the health of our children is at risk and will continue to be at risk. Hon Gentlemen may argue that it is up to the parents to ensure that children are properly fed, but it is no good flying in the face of facts. We know that many children are not being fed properly. The rôle of the school is vitally important in the feeding habits of the child and that is why I place the highest importance on devising a scheme which does not discourage a child from receiving free school meals because of humiliation.
  It must also be borne in mind that many children travel a long way to school and often do so without a good breakfast. In addition, they may have an inadequate mid-day meal. In discussing dietary patterns of children it has to be remembered that a third of the working force is made up of women and two-thirds of these are married. Half of that number have children in the school age range. That fact must be borne in mind when considering the role played by the school in providing an adequate diet. The risk that we are being asked to take in continuing to increase the price of school meals is a risk that we cannot afford to take.
  10.59 p.m.
  Mr. John E. B. Hill: The hon. Lady the Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor) has made out a case on the ground of malnutrition. But surely that matter is outside the education programme and should be dealt with through the health visitor because it is a question of educating parents rather than children. She said that it was worth retaining the principle of subsidising school meals as to one-third. But the right and overriding principle today, when money for education is in short supply, should be not to subsidise parents who do not need it.

  187
  I ask the hon. Lady to cast her mind back to the time that her right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central (Mr. Edward Short) raised the price of school meals, which was done twice under the Labour Government. When the right hon. Gentleman raised the price in April, 1968, free meals were extended to the fourth and subsequent children of large families. Within six months he said that he wished to withdraw the free provision for large families because the greater part of the£4 million involved
  "has been going to people who do not need it.…This is not a cut. It is simply using resources much more wisely. All the children who need free meals can get free meals. There is no need to give the money to quite wealthy people with large incomes."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th Nov., 1968; Vol. 772, c. 486.]
  That is a sound principle. The right hon. Gentleman pointed out that the amount saved would pay for more nursery classes and would assist the urban programme which the hon. Lady the Member for Eton and Slough has close to her heart.
  Should we spend money unnecessarily on current consumption when a great deal of capital work needs to be done? I have in mind particularly the need for improving primary schools and getting rid of old ones, which we have said is our priority. That is in our election manifesto. What is more, this is what parents want.
  Mr. Edward Short: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that there are no wealthy people whose children get free meals now?
  Mr. Hill: There are. If it is a matter of principle and the right hon. Gentleman and his party believe that the subsidy should always be retained at one-third the cost, every parent, rich or poor, will get that subsidy. I am questioning the right hon. Gentleman's principle.
  We believe that we must concentrate help where it is needed. In terms of current priorities, if any money can be spared, we should put right some of the shortages which, stemming from the right hon. Gentleman's policy, have fallen on the local education authorities and the schools. I refer particularly to the decline in the sum which can be spent on school books. That is an educational priority.
  188
  I agree with the hon. Lady the Member for Eton and Slough that parents should be told of their children's eligibility for free school meals, because the provision we are making is much more generous. I am sure that our policy is wiser.
  11.3 p.m.
  Mr. Barry Jones: This Statutory Instrument puts at risk the schools meals service in the foreseeable future. It is very worrying for much of the teaching profession as well as for many parents and children.
  I am aware that the service is worthy of tribute. After all, it is the biggest catering service in the United Kingdom. It provides in the schools of England and Wales over 900 million school meals a year. The school meal gives the average school child at least one-third of his nutritional requirements in a day. The school meals service has given the children more choice, more trolley services and a more civilised approach to school meals. It has helped to establish sound dietetic habits and social training. The first breach of the poor laws occurred when the school meals service was begun many years ago, and that marked the beginnings of the Welfare State.
  I am particularly concerned about children from poor homes, many of whom begin their school day without breakfast, without corn flakes, without milk and without toast, and are not fit to face the long school day. We see sorry-looking queues at chip shops, and children scampering away to the nearest park or street corner to eat sandwiches. I am told by headmasters and teachers that the incidence of sandwich-eating is rising daily. A child may take sandwiches to school, become bored with them and throw them away, so that he may have no nourishing food until he gets home later in the day. Alternatively, a child may take money to school to purchase a meal from a street café or the sweet shop near the school. This policy pares away at the balanced meal in this supposedly prosperous society.
  We cannot take these measures in isolation. The rise in school meals, taken with the rise in bus fares, is crippling many a family budget. Parents are not able to budget to be able to pay for this crippling rise in the cost of school meals.
  11.6 p.m.
  Mr. David Lane: I join with the hon. Member for Flint, East (Mr. Barry Jones) in paying tribute to the school meals service.
  The Government are right in what they propose to do next month. Some of the criticism opposite has a hollow ring when one remembers the increases made by the last Government. I will not inflict on hon. Members opposite quotations from the speeches of the right hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central (Mr. Edward Short) and the right hon. Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman), but those of us who were here remember what was said at the time.
  Looking at all the calls on the resources of the education service today, we can see no justification for going on letting the subsidy element increase all across the board. The rise proposed is not unreasonable, taken in conjunction with the raising of the income threshold for entitlement to free meals. I have seen quoted a figure of 200,000 additional children who will be entitled to free meals after April. I do not know whether this is correct. Perhaps my hon. Friend will say something about that.
  I echo the anxieties expressed by the hon. Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor) about nutrition, but she draws the wrong conclusion. The right conclusion to draw in this context is that much more should and will be done by the Government, first, to make known their entitlement to those who are entitled to free meals and, secondly, to try to find a way round the embarrassment which we realise exists. I look forward to hearing something from my hon. Friend on that point.
  In reply to the worries expressed by the hon. Member for Flint, East, I want to quote from an answer to a Question given by the right hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central. He said:
  "To say that the school meals service is being whittled away is plainly nonsense. Sixty-nine per cent. of all school children are getting school meals. In 1964, the figure was 62 per cent. So the service is not being whittled away; it is increasing. But the subsidy is now approaching the£100 million mark, and we must be prepared to weigh one priority in the education service against another."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th November, 1969; Vol. 791, c. 863.]
  We agree with what the right hon. Gentleman said then about priorities and
  190
  I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, South (Mr. John E. B. Hill) that the Government are getting their priorities right.
  Mr. Norman Buchan Mr. Norman Buchan (Renfrew, West) rose—
  Mr. Lane: No. I am just about to finish. Other hon. Members want to speak.
  I believe that the Government's priorities are right, and I hope that they will press forward particularly with the increased expenditure which, for this among other reasons, they are going to be able to make over the next four years on primary schools.
  11.12 p.m.
  Mr. Denis Howell: I am glad to have the opportunity to speak on one or two matters which my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor) did not have time to deal with in her excellent speech.
  Clearly, this is a Cabinet decision which the Under-Secretary of State is defending. It has nothing to do with school meals or nutrition or anything of the sort. It has nothing to do with the merits of the school meals service. It is a proposal to increase the cost of living deliberately. It is one of the first results of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's budget speech last October. I wonder what effect the Government think increasing school meal prices by no less than one-third will have in our present economic situation. Nothing could be more blatantly inflationary than this.
  We have had so much talk in recent months about reducing prices "at a stroke" but the first thing to be said about this proposal is that it is a deliberate move to increase prices "at a stroke". The economics of this case should not be forgotten. In the same week in which the Government are trying to make a test case of the postmen and restrict their increase in wages to 8 per cent., they cheerfully impose a rise of one-third on the cost of a vitally important element in the lives of most ordinary families. It is almost beyond comprehension. It is a scandalous state of affairs.
  The hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Lane) was not comparing like with like.

  191
  I was one of the Ministers who had to deal with one of the previous increases. I remind him that we were talking then about a rise in the cost of school meals which had been caused by a rise in the cost of food. We were not talking about a deliberate attempt to price a large number of people out of the market.
  Mr. van Straubenzee indicated dissent.
  Mr. Howell: The hon. Gentleman knows very well that that is what the Regulations do. He should read Part B of his own Schedule. Even on the best possible construction, a family with one child—it has no family allowance, remember—unless its income is the meagre one of less than£12 a week, which most of us regard as unacceptable, will not get any help under these Regulations.
  When this proposal was first announced some months ago, it was obvious to the House that the Secretary of State was putting it forward as a fiscal measure and had taken no advice from the Government's own nutritional experts. We are entitled to an explanation whether the matter has since been put to the Secretary of State for Social Services' Committee on Diet and Nutrition. That Committee was always consulted by the last Government, particularly about the increases referred to by the hon. Member for Cambridge. What advice has that Committee given the Government? I do not believe that that Committee has been consulted? The withdrawal of the school meal from the primary school and the effect which this will undoubtedly have in creating a fallout of youngsters taking a balanced school meal could be disastrous, both nutritionally as well as economically, in future years.
  11.16 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. William van Straubenzee): Three matters are dealt with in the Regulations, but I suppose that it is understandable that the increase in the price of school meals starting next April should have largely taken the attention of the House. I shall start with that, but I shall wish to say a few words about the other two objects of the Regulations as I go along.
  Listening to some of the speeches which have been made by hon. Members
  192
  opposite, particularly the speech of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Denis Howell), one might think that there had never been an increase in the price of school meals before.
  Mr. Frank Allaun: No, we did not.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: It is no good the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun) saying that he voted against it. The hon. Gentleman loyally supported the Government—
  Several hon. Members Several hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Only one hon. Member on his feet at one time.
  Mr. van Straubenzee:—and gladly went to the country under the banner of his party. The school meal price increase in April, 1968, was a 50 per cent. increase, which was the largest percentage increase that we have ever had in the history of the school meals service. It is this kind of fact which needs to be remembered when we listen to some of the arguments put forward by hon. Members opposite. These arguments come from a party which was responsible for a 75 per cent. increase in school meals during its period in office.
  I gladly use this opportunity to reaffirm and repeat the total difference in approach to subsidies between the two sides of the House. We on this side of the House do not believe in the indiscriminate use of the subsidy regardless of need, and I gladly repeat the intention set out in the White Paper progressively to remove the subsidy from the school meals.
  The Labour Party is again in the very greatest difficulty in defending its—
  Hon. Members: No.
  Mr. Buchan Mr. Buchan rose—
  Mr. Laurie Pavitt Mr. Laurie Pavitt (Willesden, West) rose—
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I shall not give way. I have very little time. I am not being discourteous. The rules of the House preclude me giving way.
  As was so ably put by my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, South (Mr. John E. B. Hill), the same argument was used by the Labour Party when, I think quite

  193
  rightly, it got rid of the free school meal regardless of circumstance for the fourth and subsequent child.
  We were reminded of the words of the then Secretary of State:
  "The saving from this is£4 million a year, the greater part of which has been going to people who do not need it."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th Nov. 1968; Vol. 772, c. 486.]
  The right hon. Gentleman was absolutely right. If it was wrong for the four or more children family, then assuredly it is absolutely wrong applied over the entire board. That is why I gladly take the opportunity of making quite clear the difference in approach between the two sides.
  The second thing dealt with in the Regulations is the remission of charges. The two things go together and are an essential part of the whole. It is for us an essential part of the argument that more children should be permitted and encouraged to take up the free facilities which are now made available for large numbers of children.
  Mr. Orme: Good Tory philosophy.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: Yes, good Tory philosophy.
  There are two ways in which this is done. The first is common to both sides of the House. In previous such instruments, it is true that the position of the parent has been improved in terms of remission by the increase itself, because that increases the remission charge. This is something—
  Mr. Pavitt: On a point of order Mr. Speaker. Is it not usual for the hon. Member at the Dispatch Box to address the Chair and the Reporters? The Under-Secretary is turning his head the other way most of the time and it is very difficult to hear.
  Mr. Speaker: No doubt the Minister will have regard to what the hon. Member has said.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I am obliged, Sir.
  The second reason which makes this an exceptional Measure is that in Part B of the Schedule there is an entirely new provision, which is a topping up by a factor of 75p added at each point on the scale, which makes a substantial pro-
  194
  portionate difference to those who are now entitled to a free school meal. This has never been done before. This is a new concept to which I draw the attention of the House as fitting exactly into the philosophy which I have attempted to explain.
  To give a practical example, if at this moment there are parents with four free school meals, they can earn 90p, or 18s., a week more than at present and still retain entitlement to free school meals.
  Mr. Barry Jones: On a point of order Mr. Speaker. One understands that the Secretary of State for Wales has recently had added powers for dealing with schooling in Wales. Is the Minister now referring to Wales, and, if so, when will the Minister from the Welsh Office be present?
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I now deal with the question of embarrassment, which is a real anxiety. I should have hoped that, when a provision like this was made by the House, we could all have combined, as happened on previous increase Orders. I have shown what extensive increases there have been. I would have hoped that we would have sought to make it possible for the greatest possible number of children both to know about and to claim remission. I do not believe that we are helped by talk of "lame duck" children. This does not help the large numbers of people who will be brought into the ambit of the Regulations. I hope that, in the vast majority of cases, we could agree that the provision of the remission of charge is dealt with with the greatest skill and care and sympathy. If any hon. Member comes across any individual case which has not been dealt with in a sympathetic way, he would surely contact the local education authority or the Department.
  I do not accept the validity of the two researches to which the hon. Lady referred. The first has been made public only partially, in snippets, and is not available in full. The same applies to the second one involving Dr. Lynch, which has merely been referred to in a Press conference. To found an entire argument on two reports of this kind, neither of which has been fully published and analysed, seems to be very unsound.
  Miss Lestor Miss Lestor rose—
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I beg the hon. Lady's pardon, but I am running very short of time.
  The third thing which, significantly, has not been mentioned is that this will decimalise the existing 1s. 9d. The reason it has not been mentioned is that it is the most glorious example of muddle by the Labour Government. The present school meal charge before 15th February was 1s. 9d., which is 9p. If converted into a weekly payment at 8s. 9d., it comes out to 44p, and not five times 9p.
  When 1s. 9d. was chosen as the figure, the appointed day for decimalisation had been fixed. It was known way back in 1968 that the date of decimalisation was 15th February, 1971. Yet last April that figure was chosen, which painly did not go into decimals. As a result, in countless schools from 15th February—
  Mr. Alan Williams: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The whole of the debate has centred on the nutritional content of school meals. We have been trying to extract from the hon. Gentleman whether nutritional advice was sought by the Government. Since in the time available the hon. Gentleman has not managed to answer us on this matter, would it be in order for the House to extend the debate to deal with this point?
  Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order. It is not a matter for the Chair.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I realise that hon. Gentlemen opposite do not like these matters brought to their attention. In innumerable schools teachers are wondering how it was possible for the figure to be 9p a day and 44p a week [Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. It is no good hon. Members shouting that the Minister should answer the question and then not allow him to do so.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I have dealt with the two central reports on which the hon. Lady bases her case. To be persuasive, she must have something better than those. If the Prayer is carried tonight—[Interruption.] I know that the right hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central (Mr. Edward Short) hates having his past brought up against him. We all remember that the last school meal increase, by which he sought to save£11 million, was brought in to pay the teachers. I propose to remind the House of what, in fact, happened—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer the debate."] I am sayinging that the third point raised by this debate is that it is necessary to put right—
  It being half-past Eleven o'clock, Mr. SPEAKER put the Question forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 100 (Statutory Instruments, &c., (Procedure)).
  The House divided: Ayes 246, Noes 271.

  Division No. 232.]

  AYES

  [11.30 p.m.

  Abse, Leo

  Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Dormand, J. D.

  Albu, Austen

  Cant, R. B.

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Driberg, Tom

  Ashley, Jack

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Duffy, A. E. P.

  Ashton, Joe

  Clark, David (Colne Valley)

  Dunn, James A.

  Atkinson, Norman

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Cohen, Stanley

  Eadie, Alex

  Barnes, Michael

  Coleman, Donald

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Barnett, Joel

  Concannon, J. D.

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Beaney, Alan

  Conlan, Bernard

  Ellis, Tom

  Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  English, Michael

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Evans, Fred

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Fernyhough, Rt. Hn. E.

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Fisher, Mrs. Doris (B'ham, Ladywood)

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Booth, Albert

  Davidson, Arthur

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Foley, Maurice

  Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Foot, Michael

  Bradley, Tom

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Forrester, John

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,W.)

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Deakins, Eric

  Freeson, Reginald

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Buchan, Norman

  Delargy, H. J.

  Garrett, W. E.

  Buchanan, Richard (G'gow,Sp'burn)

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Dempsey, James

  Ginsburg, David

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Doig, Peter

  Golding, John

  Gourlay, Harry

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Grant, George (Morpeth)

  McBride, Neil

  Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n & R'dnor)

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Roper, John

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  McElhone, Frank

  Rose, Paul B.

  Griffiths, will (Exchange)

  McGuire, Michael

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J.

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Mackie, John

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Hamling, William

  Maclennan, Robert

  Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

  Hannan, William (G'gow, Maryhill)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

  Hardy, Peter

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Sillars, James

  Harper, Joseph

  MacPherson, Malcolm

  Silverman, Julius

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Skinner, Dennis

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Small, William

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Smith, John (Lanarkshire, N.)

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Marquand, David

  Spearing, Nigel

  Horam, John

  Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Stallard, A. W.

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Meacher, Michael

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Mendelson, John

  Strang, Gavin

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N.)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Millan, Bruce

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Hunter, Adam

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Taverne, Dick

  Irvine, Rt. Hn. SirArthur (Edge Hill)

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)

  Janner, Greville

  Molloy, William

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St.P'cras, S.)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Tinn, James

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  John, Brynmor

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Torney, Tom

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Murray, Ronald King

  Tuck, Raphael

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Ogden, Eric

  Urwin, T. W.

  Johnson, Walter (Derby, S.)

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Varley, Eric G.

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  O'Malley, Brian

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Orbach, Maurice

  Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W.Ham, S.)

  Orme, Stanley

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Jones, Gwynoro (Carmarthen)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Wallace, George

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, W.)

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Watkins, David

  Judd, Frank

  Palmer, Arthur

  Weitzman, David

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Parker, John (Dagenham)

  Wellbeloved, James

  Kelley, Richard

  Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Kerr, Russell

  Pavitt, Laurie

  White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)

  Kinnock, Neil

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Lambie, David

  Pendry, Tom

  Whitlock, William

  Lamond, James

  Pentland, Norman

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Latham, Arthur

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Lawson, George

  Prescott, John

  Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Leonard, Dick

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Lestor, Miss Joan

  Probert, Arthur

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Rankin, John

  Woof, Robert

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Rees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Loughlin, Charles

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Mr. Ernest Armstrong and

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Richard, Ivor

  Mr. James Hamilton.

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  NOES

  Adley, Robert

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Cordle, John

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Bowden, Andrew

  Cormack, Patrick

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Costain, A. P.

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Bray, Ronald

  Critchley, Julian

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Crouch, David

  Astor, John

  Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

  Crowder, F. P.

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Curran, Charles

  Awdry, Daniel

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Bryan, Paul

  Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus,N & M)

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Balniel, Lord

  Buck, Antony

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, James Maj.-Gen.

  Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  Dean, Paul

  Batsford, Brian

  Burden, F. A.

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Dixon, Piers

  Bell, Ronald

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. G. (Moray & Nairn)

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Carlisle, Mark

  Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Chapman, Sydney

  Drayson, G. B.

  Benyon, W.

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Dykes, Hugh

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Biffen, John

  Churchill, W. S.

  Elliot, Cant. Walter (Carshalton)

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Emery, Peter

  Blaker, Peter

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Eyre, Reginald

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Cockeram, Eric

  Farr, John

  Boscawen, Robert

  Cooper, A. E.

  Fell, Anthony

  198

  199

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Kimball, Marcus

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

  Fidler, Michael

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Kirk, Peter

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Kitson, Timothy

  Roberts, Michael (Cardiff, N.)

  Fortescue, Tim

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Fowler, Norman

  Knox, David

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Fox, Marcus

  Lambton, Antony

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

  Lane, David

  Rost, Peter

  Fry, Peter

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Gardner, Edward

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Scott, Nicholas

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Longden, Gilbert

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Loveridge, John

  Sharples, Richard

  Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  MacArthur, Ian

  Shelton, William (Clapham)

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Simeons, Charles

  Goodhart, Philip

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Goodhew, Victor

  McMaster, Stanley

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Gorst, John

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Soref, Harold

  Gower, Raymond

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Speed, Keith

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

  Spence, John

  Gray, Hamish

  Maddan, Martin

  Sproat, Iain

  Green, Alan

  Madel, David

  Stainton, Keith

  Grieve, Percy

  Maginnis, John E.

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Marten, Neil

  Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

  Grylls, Michael

  Mawby, Ray

  Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

  Gummer, Selwyn

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Gurden, Harold

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Stokes, John

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Sutcliffe, John

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)

  Tapsell, Peter

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Moate, Roger

  Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N.W.)

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Molyneaux, James

  Tebbit, Norman

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Money, Ernie

  Temple, John M.

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Monks, Mrs. Connie

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Hastings, Stephen

  Monro, Hector

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Havers, Michael

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Tilney, John

  Hawkins, Paul

  More, Jasper

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Hay, John

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Trew, Peter

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Heseltine, Michael

  Mudd, David

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Hicks, Robert

  Murton, Oscar

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Neave, Airey

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Hiley, Joseph

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Hill, John E. B. (Norfolk, S.)

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Waddington, David

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Normanton, Tom

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Holland, Philip

  Nott, John

  Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

  Holt, Miss Mary

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Wall, Patrick

  Hornby, Richard

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Walters, Dennis

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia

  Osborn, John

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Howe, Hn. Sir Geoffrey (Reigate)

  Owen, Idris (Stockport N.)

  Warren, Kenneth

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Hunt, John

  Parkinson, Cecil (Enfield, W.)

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Peel, John

  Wilkinson, John

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Percival, Ian

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Woodnutt, Mark

  James, David

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Worsley, Marcus

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Pounder, Rafton

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Jessel, Toby

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Younger, Hn. George

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

  Proudfoot, Wilfred

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Pym, Rt Hn. Francis

  Mr. Bernard Weatherill and

  Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Mr. Walter Clegg.

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Raison, Timothy

  STANDING ORDERS (REVISION)
  Ordered,
  That the Report of the Select Committee on Standing Orders (Revision) be now considered.—[Mr. Whitelaw.]
  Report considered accordingly.
  11.40 p.m.
  The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw): I beg to move,
  That the repeals of, and Amendments to, the Standing Orders of this House relating to Public Business and the new Standing Orders, recommended by the Select Committee in their Report and stated in the first Appendix thereto, be made, subject to the following modification, namely, in the new Standing Order No. 18 (Business of Supply), paragraph 5(g), leave out 'Estimates' and insert 'Expenditure', and to the omission of all reference to Standing Order No. 80 (Estimates Committee).
  In bringing forward this Report, I think I should first express on behalf of the House generally our gratitude to the members of this Committee for the thoroughness and rapidity with which this important tidying-up operation has been done. The need to arrange our Standing Orders in the most systematic and lucid way possible is a complex and detailed task; it is also a very necessary one. I am sure, too, that the Committee would also like me to express on its behalf its appreciation of the comprehensive memorandum prepared by the Clerk's Department which served as the basis of its consideration.
  There is one particular point which I should emphasise about this Report. That is simply to underline that, as the Committee itself points out, none of its proposals is intended to alter existing practice in any way, but merely to remove a number of inconsistencies and oversights, to improve some of the drafting, and to set out our Standing Orders in a more logical sequence.
  In certain instances also, summarised at paragraph 9 of its Report, the Committee has sought, I believe successfully, to interpret in several detailed instances the intentions of the House where their literal meaning at present leads to anomalies. I do not believe, for example, that it was ever the intention of the House under Standing Order No. 3 that
  202
  affirmative Orders might be debated until 11.30 p.m. on a Friday. I believe the Committee has correctly interpreted in those instances the intentions of the House.
  It is only to be expected that over a period of years—it is about seven years since the last revision—a number of minor errors and points of doubt will creep into our Standing Orders, particularly in a period of very substantial procedural changes. I realise, however, that there are Members who seek the opportunity for much more fundamental changes in our procedures and Standing Orders to be considered.
  It is, of course, the function of the Select Committee on Procedure to consider and recommend to the House alterations of substance in the rules of procedure. I would only say, therefore, to those seeking wider procedural changes that we are tonight dealing with a much narrower and, I hope, less contentious issue: simply that our existing procedures should be expressed in Standing Orders as clearly and logically as possible. I believe the changes recommended by the Committee in this Report will work towards this aim.
  Once again I should like to thank the Committee for its work, and I recommend the changes which it proposes to the House.
  11.43 p.m.
  Mr. Fred Peart: I should like to endorse, I hope in a short speech, what the Leader of the House has said. I associate myself and my hon. Friends with what he said about the Committee. I think the Committee did an excellent job. It has suggested certain amendments, and I am sure there is no opposition to them.
  The Committee was appointed in July, 1970—as the right hon. Gentleman said, seven years after the last revision of Standing Orders on the recommendation of the Select Committee. Indeed, the basis of the work has been a memorandum prepared under the authority of the Clerk of the House. The Committee has suggested some rearrangement of the numerical order in which the Standing Orders relating to Public Business appear. More important, it has suggested amending a number of them for a variety of reasons.

  203
  The Select Committee has tried to put into a framework of words what has been the real intention, and this was not an easy task. I do not disagree with any of the Committee's recommendations. One can go right through the Report—Standing Order No. 2, and the need for flexibility about that; Standing Order No. 3, and the argument about exemption relating to 5.30 and 11.30; Standing Order No. 18, Standing Order No. 29, which is very important, Standing Order No. 30, Standing Order No. 62A, which deals with an amendment to provide that all Members sitting for constituencies in Wales and Monmouthshire should be included on any Standing Committee to consider any report of any Bill relating exclusively to Wales and Monmouthshire, and so on.
  So one could go on. These are details. This Report from the Select Committee, backed up by a memorandum from the Clerk of the House and his colleagues, enables us to do something which is sensible, so I hope that, without further ado, we may accept it.
  I am sure that there are hon. Members on both sides who may have different views, who may wish to elaborate, or suggest that we should do more. That may well be, but I hope that, in the end, my hon. Friends will accept that this is a sensible step forward. It is a tidying-up process. Perhaps hon. Members can be pedantic about it, but, on a reading of Appendix I to the Report which finalises the views of the Committee, I feel that the House must accept that the Committee has done a fine job in a practical fashion.
  I hope that my hon. Friends will not be too pedantic but will allow the Motion to go through, accepting what the Leader of the House has suggested. Hon. Members may want to speak about wider issues, but, at this stage, I hope that we may accept the Committee's Report, and congratulate those hon. Members whose task it was to produce it, while taking note of what may be said by others in the debate.
  11.47 p.m.
  Mr. Michael English: I join in what has been said about the work of the Select Committee. In so far as its terms of reference permitted, it has clearly done an excellent
  204
  job of tidying up our Standing Orders. Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Peart), I have no intention of opposing the Report now, and I thank the Leader of the House for allowing us a short time to debate it.
  Nevertheless, I cannot allow the Leader of the House to get away with what he said earlier. He said that the Committee had done a restricted job of tidying-up. Its terms of reference were,
  "to consider and report upon the rearrangement and redrafting of the Standing Orders so as to bring them into conformity with existing practice".
  Simply because he is Leader of the House, the right hon. Gentleman was responsible for those terms of reference. Seven years ago, as he said, there was another Committee to revise Standing Orders. Such Committees are appointed at somewhat irregular intervals, and have been for years. But I think that I am right in saying that, with perhaps one other, this is the most restricted set of terms of reference that any such Committee has had.
  Within its deliberately limited function, limited by the Leader of the House himself, the Committee has done an excellent job. It has changed old phrases like "of the clock" to "o'clock".
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: That is progress.
  Mr. English: But that is not what we are here for, surely. If I went through all the things I should like the Committee to have done, you would rule me out of order, Mr. Speaker, I am sure.
  Perhaps I may mention by way of illustration the whole guillotine procedure, which we have so recently experienced. Does anyone think that it increases the repute of the House in the country if we are busily voting, dividing like perpetual amoebas, until five o'clock in the morning? That is what our present guillotine procedure forces us to do. It means lengthy debates on the first items that come up after the guillotine has fallen and no debate, or very short debates, on the last items to come up before it falls.
  Yet it is so simple to alter this without affecting the time of the Opposition or Government under the guillotine Motion. We could adopt the practice of the American Rules Committee and ask the Business Committee to do little more

  205
  work, telling it to consult Mr. Speaker or the Chairman, find out what Amendments will be called, and allocate to them and Clause stand part Motions an amount of time—
  Mr. Speaker: I apologise for interrupting the hon. Gentleman, but he seems to be suggesting a change in existing practice. This debate should be restricted to the arrangements and redrafting of the Standing Orders in conformity with the existing practice. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman can go beyond that.
  Mr. English: I accept that, Mr. Speaker. You will recollect that I was using some illustration. I thank you for your courtesy in allowing me to get to the end of it.
  Clearly there are things in our Standing Orders that the Committee could have considered, and under the terms of reference of nearly every previous Standing Orders Revision Committee they would have been considered. The suggestions of hon. Members on both sides could have been considered by the Committee. It was not so in this case, and the debate is limited, because the Committee's report is limited, as a result of the Motion the Leader of the House originally put down. That limitation is presumably his own decision, and it is precisely because I want him to explain why he deliberately restricted the Committee's terms of reference that I wanted the debate.
  Mr. Whitelaw: Perhaps it will help the hon. Gentleman if I tell him that the reason is that I believe that changes in Standing Orders and our procedures are properly a matter for the Select Committee on Procedure.
  Mr. English: That would be all very well if the Select Committee on Procedure did not have the enormous task of considering the whole legislative process, which I grant involves a very large number of Standing Orders, but not all of them.
  Mr. Whitelaw: The hon. Gentleman gave an illustration before you thought that he should not go any further, Mr. Speaker. That reference is just one of the matters the Select Committee on Procedure can properly consider in its review of legislation.
  Mr. English: I entirely grant that, but there are others which were listed in the Amendments in my name some time ago, that I should probably be out of order to list in detail. There are many other items in the practice of the House, small items that do not affect the basic issue of the time of the Opposition or the Government, that would improve our procedure in a modest, simple way, and which I should like to think would be considered rather sooner than the Select Committee will be able to consider them, given the enormous task upon which it has just embarked. If it is doing its present task adequately, it would probably take it not one but possibly two Sessions to do the whole job.
  Meanwhile, we still have no immediate, quick procedure. One of the things I suggested is already in a Report. It has been suggested to the House by a Joint Committee of both Houses. It is still floating around with nothing being done about it. That does not need to be referred to the Select Committee on Procedure or any other body. It could be done forthwith.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is going beyond the limits of the debate. He is not entitled to discuss the terms of reference of the Committee. He has simply to restrict his comments to the Committee's proposals for the rearrangement and redrafting of the Standing Orders in accordance with existing practice. I do not think that he can put forward these other ideas.
  Mr. English: I bow to your Ruling, Mr. Speaker. I think that in any case I have made my point. I have said that I should like to thank the Leader of the House for the opportunity to make it, but I hope that the next time any Committee of this character is appointed it will be remembered that it had wider terms of reference in the past, and that the practice on this occasion will not be a precedent.
  11.55 p.m.
  Mr. Tom Driberg: I promise to speak for less than two minutes. Since you allowed my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English) to proceed for some time with his illustrative point, Mr. Speaker, I hope that you will allow me to make a much briefer

  207
  illustrative point, which is topical, because it arises from something that happened tonight. Debate on the sort of Order that we had tonight does not—as was surely at first intended—last for one-and-a-half hours when it is delayed by three Divisions, as was the case tonight. It lasts for little more than one hour.
  You may recollect, Mr. Speaker, that some years ago—perhaps it was even before your time, in the dim past—the half-hour Adjournment debate was seriously eroded because it started from Ten o'clock and not from the end of the previous business. Similarly, this kind of debate ought to last for one-and-a-half hours from the end of the previous business, including Divisions, as the half-hour Adjournment debate does now.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Ordered,
  That the repeals of, and Amendments to, the Standing Orders of this House relating to Public Business and the new Standing Orders, recommended by the Select Committee in their Report and stated in the first Appendix thereto, be made, subject to the following modification, namely, in the new Standing Order No. 18 (Business of Supply), paragraph 5(g), leave out 'Estimates' and insert 'Expenditure', and to the omission of all reference to Standing Order No. 80 (Estimates Committee).
  Ordered, That the Standing Orders, as amended, be printed. [No. 308.]

  H.M.S. "BELFAST"
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Goodhew.]
  11.56 p.m.
  Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles: I want to occupy the House for a few moments about the future of H.M.S. "Belfast" as a museum ship. First, I want to give the reasons for trying to preserve her. She is an historic ship in many ways. She took part in the sinking of the "Scharnhorst" and was the covering force for the attack on the "Tirpitz". She spearheaded the invasion of Normandy and saw much action in the Korean War, and for years she has been the flagship of the British Far East Fleet. She was the largest cruiser ever
  208
  built for the Royal Navy, and is now the last remaining wartime big-gun ship. All the others have gone.
  She is still in a really wonderful state of preservation, as I saw for myself when I went round her a week ago. The museums are very anxious to keep the ship, and have been for several years, and in 1967 the Belfast Committee was set up. It published a very detailed report. Its membership comprised representatives from the National Maritime Museum and the Imperial War Museum, and it was under the chairmanship of the director, Dr. Noble Frankland, of the Imperial War Museum. I quote from the report of the Committee:
  "There is a very strong case for her preservation…There is really no question of selecting Belfast; it is rather a case of grasping the last opportunity."
  The Labour Government seemed all set to preserve this ship in Plymouth, and the scheme was supported by the Labour Minister of the Navy at the time. Now I have heard twice from the noble Lord the Paymaster-General that this Government refuse to preserve the ship. For the purposes of this debate I accept that decision, but I want to put a completely different proposal to the Minister.
  My hon. Friend may or may not know that a H.M.S. "Belfast" Trust is being formed at the moment, with the object of trying to obtain a loan of the ship to put her on exhibition afloat in the London River. In connection with that scheme I want to make a few points. First, I hope that the Minister will understand quite clearly that the Trust wants to do its job properly or not at all. We do not want just to muck about with it.
  Secondly, the Trust already has the offer of a splendid berth in the Pool of London, just opposite the Tower—perhaps the best berth in the world. The Tower of London is visited by more than 2 million tourists each year, and I hope that a large number of those visitors will be interested in taking a short tour round the "Belfast".
  Thirdly, the Trust believes that the scheme could be financially viable. The Minister will know that ships are similarly shown in many other countries, including Canada, Japan, the United States, Russia and so on, and all the ships of which we have details run at a profit. The Trust is quite clear that if

  209
  "Belfast" does not pay after the first few years, we should agree that it must be scrapped, because there would be nothing in the scheme.
  On finances, the Trust has not yet started advertising for money to support the scheme, but a certain amount of information about our ideas has been in the Press and on the radio and I have already received very heartening financial response, including a letter offering the Trust a£50,000 bond which I received as I came into the Lobby a few minutes ago.
  There is no technical difficulty about preservation of the hull afloat, a point which the "Belfast" Committee made clearly. I hope that the Minister will excuse me if I do not enlarge on that. If the Government lend the ship to the Trust, their money will be secure because the ship will remain theirs, so there is no occasion for the "Abominable No-Men" in the Treasury to feel any concern.
  The Trust is already receiving a great deal of encouragement and support from the two museums particularly concerned, from the British Tourist Authority, which wishes to obtain additional tourist attractions in London, and the Port of London Authority, which is being very helpful and which sees no objection in principle to her being berthed in the Pool of London. There has already been a preliminary reconnaissance with P.L.A. representatives in the Pool.
  No fewer than 80 hon. Members from all parties have signed an early day Motion, and those signing range from the hon. and gallant Member for Winchester to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer)—a very wide spectrum indeed!The Motion has been signed, too, by previous Navy Ministers from both parties.
  There have been many suggestions for adding to the attractions which the ship could offer tourists and thereby increase the income which she could earn. It has been suggested that World War Two exhibits should be placed aboard as an extension of the museums in due course. It would be an attractive idea to have a R.N. recruiting office or careers office actually on board the ship and that would probably be more effective than having one ashore. One can imagine a leering old pensioner with a rum tub—"The
  210
  Queen, God bless her!"—selling rum to visitors at exorbitant prices, and even son et lumière across the water in due course.
  I put it to the Minister that it would be worth while considering having the London division of the Royal Navy Division on board and thereby enable the Ministry to scrap H.M.S. "President" and H.M.S. "Chrysanthemum". I have not yet discussed this with the R.N.R. Division, and the two ships which they have now have done them very well and have honoured and hallowed names, but H.M.S. "Belfast" would probably be a better headquarters ship for the London Division in the long run.
  I have two questions to put to the Minister tonight. First, will he halt the dismantling and removal of fittings and equipment from the ship and delay any action about selling her until 30th June, to give the Trust a chance to show what it can make of its ideas? Secondly, will he in the meantime hold discussions with the trustees to see whether the ship can be lent to the Trust for, say, five years on mutually acceptable terms? It is never easy to divert the Whitehall machine from its decision, but this is not an attempt to change the Minister's mind, but merely to suggest a way in which an imaginative Government could have the best of both worlds.
  I am not putting this forward for any emotional reasons or just because I once commanded the ship. I fully understand that the scheme must be entirely realistic and business-like, otherwise we cannot go ahead with it.
  I would remind the House that Britain owes her greatness, all through her history, to the sea. She has twice this century been within a few weeks of starvation because of blockades of our sea routes. We owe it to our children that they should never be allowed to forget these two vital facts.
  12.5 a.m.
  Mr. David James: I must declare a continued interest because I was a trustee of the National Maritime Museum for 11 years. When we remember the achievement of the Swedes in salvaging the "Vasa", one of the most fascinating episodes over the years, and when we think of the opportunities we have lost, it really is disgraceful. In 1948 we could easily have preserved the

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  last four-masted barque ever built in Britain, the "Archibald Russell". In 1949 the last three-masted coastal schooner, "Mary Miller", went out of commission and in 1950 the last colliery barquentine, "Lady of Avenal", also went on to the scrap-heap. We have let an incomparable maritime heritage go by default. We are left with the "Foudroyant", one of the most historic warships in the world, which is rotting at anchor through lack of care and funds.
  We are left with Captain Scott's "Discovery"—that very historic ship which is ruined by virtue of not having her yards crossed to turn her into a barque. She is technically a bastard schooner, which is not an unparliamentary term because it is naval term. I had an Adjournment debate on the subject 11 years ago. We are left with the "Great Britain" which has been brought home at immense sacrifice, through great imagination but whose future is very uncertain, even though she is certainly one of the most important maritime relics left in the world.
  The only two ships that this great maritime country has ever taken any trouble over have been the "Victory" at Portsmouth and the "Cutty Sark". The sheer economics of the "Cutty Sark" make it quite clear that it was worth while saving her. Thank God she was saved. It was by a series of coincidences that she survived every vicissitude. If only the Government would give a certain latitude to allow ships such as these to be properly capitalised we would be able to retain these vessels. They are of vital importance. I would say that they are as important as historic houses. I know I will take my hon. Friend out of his purely Departmental brief when I appeal for a far more imaginative approach to the entire question of preserving historic ships, not only to remind us of our maritime past but also to be jolly good tourist business for the future.
  12.8 a.m.
  Mr. Eric Ogden: I am happy to say that this is one subject at least in which there is a wide measure of agreement on both sides of the House—and there are few enough such occasions at present. I congratulate the hon. and gallant Member for Win-
  212
  chester (Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles) on using his good fortune in the Adjournment debate to raise this subject. My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Torney) is unable to be here but he joined me in sponsoring the Early Day Motion. I can tell the Minister that, had we tried, we could have got much more support than the 80-odd signatures to that Motion.
  I would underline what has been said by hon. and hon. and gallant Gentlemen opposite about the need to keep the "Belfast" but not as a dusty, old museum—that is the last word that should be used in this context, although museums can be exciting places. It should be kept as a relic of our imperial glory, or even as a dead remembrance of the times when she sailed the high seas in defence of this country and by her service helped to make it possible for us to sit here in peace. She is part of the living history of this maritime nation.
  I may, and no doubt will in future, criticise the Government for their cost-effective programme for this, that or the other, but I do not want to do that tonight. I hope that there is a way by which the Government can preserve this ship as part of our maritime history and as an encouragement to our sailors in the years to come.
  12.10 a.m.
  Mr. Gordon A. T. Bagier: I join the hon. and gallant Member for Winchester (Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles) in the request he has made. I did not command H.M.S. "Belfast", but, as a gunner in the Royal Marines who served in her, I remember being on board when she was on the Russian convoys, when she helped to sink the "Scharnhorst" and fired one of the first shots at Normandy when we returned there. I hopes that the Minister will look on the request made with some favour. The only value of the ship from the point of view of cashing in on her is as scrap.
  I ask the Minister to give some thought to maintaining her and giving her a chance, perhaps as a museum so that member of the public may view the ship, which is representative of a class of cruisers which are disappearing from our maritime history. If the public do not want H.M.S. "Belfast" to remain in existence, the Government can realise on

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  the vessel in three or four years as an asset. I hope that the Minister will give some thought to that matter.
  12.13 a.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Peter Kirk): No one like myself who has served in the Royal Navy and who now tries to serve the Royal Navy could possibly be unmoved by the please made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Winchester (Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles) and others for H.M.S. "Belfast"—even one like me who is slightly on the fringe of the Royal Navy, having been in the Fleet Air Arm and having had no great interest in cruisers. I recognise the very great depth of feeling on both sides of the House about preserving this historic ship, particularly that of my hon. and gallant Friend, who was her commander, who knows the ship intimately and saw her not in her declining years—I would hate to say that—but in her present state only last week.
  H.M.S. "Belfast" is one of the most historic ships which the Navy has had in the last 20 years. She was commissioned in 1939, at the beginning of the last war. She served in the Arctic convoy operations and played an important rôle in the last of the Navy's capital ship gunnery actions—the sinking of the "Scharnhorst" in 1943. Subsequently she took part in naval operations in support of the Normandy landings and after that was the flagship of the British squadron in the United Nations operations in Korea. More recently, in 1960, she was the flagship of the then Second in Command Far East Fleet, the late First Sea Lord and Chief of the Naval Staff, that most loved man, Admiral Sir Michael Le Fanu, whose recent death we all deplored.
  Since 1967, H.M.S. "Belfast" has performed the slightly less glamorous, but essential, role of H.Q. ship of the Reserve Ships Organisation at Portsmouth. As a result of the transfer of the Reserve Ships Organisation to shore accommodation at Chatham last month, this requirement has ceased and she would in the ordinary way he put on the disposal list next month as being surplus to naval requirements.
  Following normal practice, she has been emptied of all portable stores and equipment, and no further maintenance is being done on her. I must, therefore, say to
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  my hon. and gallant Friend that I cannot halt the de-equipping process. This has now virtually been completed and it would make very little sense to do anything about that. I understand that her present condition is that her hull appears to be sound but that there is considerable corrosion of her decks and upperworks; and that her adaptation as an accommodation ship involved the de-equipping of a large area of her forward superstructure to provide additional living accommodation.
  My hon. and gallant Friend has referred to the earlier proposal by the National Martime and Imperial War Museums for the preservation of H.M.S. "Belfast" as a floating museum when she became surplus to requirements. The Navy Department interest was of course confined to the question of making the ship available, but we were closely associated with the proposal in this respect from its earliest days and, had the proposal been implemented, would have agreed that the ship should be provided for this purpose. In the event my noble Friend the Paymaster-General has not been able to agree to the proposal to preserve the ship for use as a museum—in view of the very substantial annual running costs likely to be incurred in this project and the number of people who might have been expected to visit the ship.
  While we in the Navy Department are not in a position ourselves to undertake the preservation of ships, we are always anxious to assist if we can. I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that the time required before the ship is finally disposed of will give adequate opportunity for the Trust to make firm proposals for her preservation which we shall of course consider fully and sympathetically.
  I understand that he has in mind an arrangement whereby the ship would remain in Admiralty ownership but on loan to the Trust for a number of years. The problem is, however, that if there is no further purely naval requirement for the ship we would normally seek to dispose of her in such a way as to terminate once and for all our responsibility for her since there are obvious objections to retaining, as a possible liability on Defence Votes, a ship which has no defence purpose. In the ordinary way disposal would be by sale as scrap

  215
  through competitive tendering by United Kingdom shipbreakers. The scrap value would be considerable.
  I cannot be more precise than that, although I know that a number of questions have been asked. For the commercial reasons I have already given to the House, it would not be right for me to give any figure. I do, however, acknowledge the arguments of my hon. and gallant Friend and the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden), the Member for Dorset, North (Mr. David James) and the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Bagier) for the preservation of H.M.S. "Belfast", and I am ready to hold up the disposal of the ship for a short time while the Trust formulates definite proposals. I understand from him that this will be before the end of June.
  There are a number of problems which have still to be worked out, for example, the implications of disposing of the ship in a way that did not realise her full value will have to be carefully examined,
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  and I cannot be expected to give a decision now on this.
  The answer to my hon. and gallant Friend's first question is that, although the de-equipment and de-storing of the ship have now gone too far to halt, I will certainly hold up until the end of June any question of the disposal of the hull. In answer to his second question, I am prepared to discuss with the trustees, in the light of that, the best disposal of the ship. Perhaps we can leave it this way tonight, that H.M.S. "Belfast", admittedly gutted but nevertheless the same ship, will remain afloat until the end of June, my hon. and gallant Friend will proceed with his proposals and we can have a talk at the earliest possible moment on the best way of making use of the ship.
  Mr. Ogden: That is the best answer we have had from that Box for some time.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at nineteen minutes past Twelve o'clock.

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