Sitting of 20 January 1971

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  PAISLEY CORPORATION (CART NAVIGATION) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Mr. Gordon Campbell presented a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under Section 7 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936, relating to Paisley Corporation (Cart Navigation).
  To be considered upon Tuesday next and to be printed. [Bill 89.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  AVIATION SUPPLY

    Aircraft Industry (Future Projects)
    Mr. Martenasked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a statement on future supersonic projects for the British aircraft industry.
    The Minister of Aviation Supply (Mr. Frederick Corfield): I think that we must at this stage concentrate on making a success of Concorde.
    Mr. Marten: I agree with the Minister in that profound statement, but could he say what research is going on for the next stage, that is, research into hypersonic flight?
    Mr. Corfield: Very little at the present moment.
    Mr. Martenasked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a state-
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    ment on future subsonic projects for the British aircraft industry.
    Mr. Corfield: I take the Question to apply to civil projects. The Government are not responsible for finding projects for the industry; the initiative lies with the manufacturers. But I am prepared to consider any applications for Government launching aid.
    Mr. Marten: What is being done by the industry to develop short take-off and landing aircraft, primarily in order to avoid congestion on the short air traffic routes?
    Mr. Corfield: Several studies are in progress both in my Department and in the industry. We hope to be able to study these thoroughly in the next few weeks, but I do not think that there is much prospect of a project which will go into development in the near future.
    Mr. Dalyell: Do these studies involve other European countries at present?
    Mr. Corfield: Yes, Sir.

    Aircraft Projects (Commercial Returns)
    Mr. Carterasked the Minister of Aviation Supply what is the total of Government expenditure incurred since 1945 on civil aviation that failed to produce a commercial product.
    Mr. Corfield: If the hon. Member is referring to aircraft which have failed to achieve any sales, about £40 million.
    Mr. Carter: I thank the Minister for that reply. It is rather less than I thought it would be. But will he agree that what the aircraft industry requires today is a secure future based on feasible projects and that the recent cuts which the Government have made in the projected programmes of the British aircraft industry do not give much hope for that kind of prospect in the foreseeable future?
    Mr. Corfield: Of course, the ideal would be a steady stream of viable projects. The hon. Gentleman refers to cuts. That is a rather odd way of describing a refusal to support with launching aid a project in relation to which there was a rival project of the same nature in which a British aircraft company was involved.

    Concorde
    Mr. Sheldonasked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a further statement on the Concorde.
    Mr. Wallasked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make another statement on the progress of the Concorde programme.
    Mr. Corfield: I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the hon. Member on Wednesday, 18th November.—[Vol. 806, c. 1212–5.]
    Mr. Sheldon: What is the right hon. Gentleman's latest estimate of the cost of development of Concorde? Will he undertake that he will give no further authorisation for the purchase or production of parts or components until a decision is finally taken on this aircraft, and may we know when that is likely to be?
    Mr. Corfield: The total estimate is still the same as the figure I gave in my earlier statement, £825 million. As regards authorisations in the future, the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that this is a matter for joint decision between my French colleague and myself. We very much hope that by the time we come to the major review in March we shall be in a position to make firm decisions.
    Mr. Wall: Could my right hon. Friend say anything about operating Concorde over the United States, and whether we are likely to be given clearance for that?
    Mr. Corfield: My hon. Friend speaks of operating over the United States. I think that there is very little—
    Mr. Wall: I meant to the United States.
    Mr. Corfield: To the United States, yes. There is the problem of the noise restrictions which are the subject of discussion in the United States, and I am keeping in close touch with how they are going. They could affect the issue very much indeed.
    Mr. Benn: As the Minister has said, and we all know, we are approaching a moment of decision-making on Concorde of immense significance for the aircraft industry and, in particular, as it happens, for my constituency and his. Will he undertake that, before a decision on the future of Concorde is reached by the Government,
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    the relevant figures and alternatives will be published so that the nation itself may have an opportunity of joining in the discussion before decisions are come to rather than after the Government have taken them?
    Mr. Corfield: The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the decision must be a Government decision. I think that a prolonged public discussion would not be in the interests of the enterprise.
    Sir E. Bullus: My right hon. Friend knows that this aircraft is a winner. Will he undertake to do all in his power to see that we keep this lead in the aircraft industry?
    Mr. Corfield: I would only modify my hon. and gallant Friend's comment by saying that I hope very much that it is a winner. It must depend on the commercial potential as we are able to judge it in a few months time.
    Mr. Leslie Huckfield: As airlines are being pressed to take firm commercial decisions, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what payload performance for Concorde has now been guaranteed?
    Mr. Corfield: The hon. Gentleman is a bit premature. We have not reached the stage at which the manufacturers are in a position to guarantee payload performance. We hope that we shall reach that stage when the full results of the tests have been evaluated, but that will not be for a month or two.
    Mr. Wilkinsonasked the Minister of Aviation Supply whether he will now make a further statement on production funding for Concorde.
    Mr. Corfield: The manufacture of six production models of Concorde has been authorised and authority has also been given to the firms to order some materials for a further four aircraft.
    Mr. Wilkinson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that B.A.C. has serious overcapacity for production, with grave financial implications for the company? We cannot merely expect airlines to have a commercial judgment on the virtues of the project. We must also take into consideration the faith that the sponsoring Governments have in the worth-whileness of the air liner.
    Mr. Corfield: There has been no lack or loss of confidence by the Government. The question which we must consider is whether we should authorise further production finance now before we are in a position to assess the marketing potential.
    Mr. Benn: Has the right hon. Gentleman an agreement with the French Government to carry the current rate of spending through to the middle of the year, or is there a break point in March that will make it necessary for him to reach a decision before the airlines may have had full time to assess the aircraft?
    Mr. Corfield: There is no break point in the sense meant by the right hon. Gentleman. I am meeting Monsieur Chamant on 2nd February, when I shall have further talks on this aspect before the March review.
    Mr. Adley: In view of the importance of the Question which my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Wilkinson) put about the Concorde's situation, could my right hon. Friend give an assurance that when he is assessing the advice he receives from his officials and from B.O.A.C. he will judge it historically in the light of B.O.A.C.'s attitude towards other British aircraft since the war?
    Mr. Corfield: We must study the advice on the basis of the situation as it exists when that advice is given.
    Mr. Adleyasked the Minister of Aviation Supply whether he will make an early flight in Concorde.
    Mr. Corfield: I hope to do so as soon as it can conveniently be arranged.
    Mr. Adley: I am delighted to hear that. Is my right hon. Friend aware not only of the great morale boost that this will be to those employed on the manufacture of Concorde but equally, if not more important, the great show of the British Government's confidence that this will indicate to customers of Concorde who will shortly be placing their orders?
    Mr. Corfield: My hon. Friend flatters me unduly, but I thank him.
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Minister of Aviation Supply what is the latest estimate of the cost of Concorde and whether he will now establish a ceiling
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    above which such cost will not be met from public funds.
    Mr. Corfield: As regards the first part of this Question, I would refer the hon. Member to my statement on 28th October, 1970. The answer to the second part of the Question is, "No".—[Vol. 805, c. 193–196.]
    Mr. Hamilton: Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that an increasing volume of opinion fears that this might be the most expensive white elephant in British aviation history? How does he square his reply with the philosophy of the Conservative Party that everyone must stand on their own feet?
    Mr. Corfield: I cannot think of any more unwise course than to fix a purely arbitrary ceiling at this stage. As I have said on a number of occasions—I have always taken this view, as has the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn)—this stage would be the least sensible stage at which to consider cancelling Concorde.
    Mr. Marten: In an earlier answer, my right hon. Friend referred to the figure of £800 million or thereabouts. Will he divide by half when he uses that figure so that the British people know that we are paying only £400 million and not £800 million?
    Mr. Corfield: I take note of that suggestion.
    Mr. William Rodgersasked the Minister of Aviation Supply what discussions his Department has had with the British Aircraft Corporation and the French Government with a view to guaranteeing the manufacturers of the Concorde against loss in the event of unit production costs exceeding the estimates embodied in the selling price negotiated with airlines.
    Mr. Corfield: My Department has had a number of discussions with the manufacturers on the arrangements for the financing of production. These discussions are continuing. The French Government have been kept informed of these discussions.
    Mr. Rodgers: Would the right hon. Gentleman say that these discussions do not include any consideration of the prospect of financing Concorde beyond

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    the development phase, and in particular that there is no question of direct or indirect subsidy to production models for sale to the airlines?
    Mr. Corfield: I may have misunderstood the hon. Gentleman's Question. These discussions refer to the production phase. We are not considering any form of subsidy or grant at that stage. What we are considering is the terms and conditions of the interest-bearing loans which were the basis on which the last Government proposed to finance Concorde. As the hon. Gentleman will understand, many factors have to be considered.
    Mr. Adley: Does my right hon. Friend know whether Air France is submitting evidence to the French Government on Concorde? If it is, will he do his best to see that he has access to it?
    Mr. Corfield: That is my constant endeavour.
    Mr. Leslie Huckfield: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the attitude of both B.O.A.C. and Air France in taking up their options on Concorde is crucial? Would it be his policy to continue to subsidise Concorde directly or to expect B.O.A.C. and Air France to do so?
    Mr. Corfield: That is a question which must await the future.
    Mr. Michael McNair-Wilsonasked the Minister of Aviation Supply (1) what is the estimated research and development cost of the Olympus engines for Concorde;
    (2) how many engines have been ordered by his Department for the Concorde project.
    Mr. Corfield: Nineteen bench and 44 flight development engines have been ordered under the Concorde development programme. Authority has also been given for the manufacture of the first 14 production engines. It would not be appropriate at this stage, for reasons of commercial confidence, for me to give the total estimated development cost of the Olympus 593.
    Mr. McNair-Wilson: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the research and development cost is as it was estimated at the beginning of this project? If not, can he give some idea, even in percentage terms, of how much it has risen and
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    whether the engine supply programme is on time?
    Mr. Corfield: I cannot say that the estimates have not risen since the outset of the arrangement. I cannot without notice give a percentage increase. As far as I know, the present development is on time but there are other modifications which have to be taken into account.
    Mr. Leslie Huckfield: What percentage of this research and development cost is being spent on the reduction of lateral noise and smoke pollution? Can the right hon. Gentleman say where in this country the majority of these engines will be made?
    Mr. Corfield: I cannot give answers now to those supplementary questions. If the hon. Gentleman will put them down on the Order Paper I will endeavour to do so, but these costs are difficult to identify.
    Mr. Onslow: When can we expect the first flight of a Concorde with the modified engines?
    Mr. Corfield: I shall have to ask my hon. Friend to give me notice of that question.
    Mr. William Rodgers: The right hon. Gentleman referred to commercial considerations. While accepting that, in certain circumstances, this may be a reason for not giving detailed figures, will he not be more explicit now, because there seems no obvious reason why figures should not be given without prejudice?
    Mr. Corfield: I have some sympathy with the right hon. Gentleman, but the problem is that the figures contain certain contingencies, and I think that they are better not published.

    Heavy-Lift Helicopters
    Mr. Wallasked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make a statement about the supply of heavy-lift helicopters to the Royal Air Force.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Aviation Supply (Mr. David Price): The Department has not been notified of any R.A.F. requirement for a heavy-lift helicopter. However, we have been notified of a possible requirement for some helicopters with a medium-lift capability. We are examining helicopters which might meet such a requirement.
    Mr. Wall: Would not the operation and the efficiency of the Harrier squadrons be severely restricted unless there were some medium-lift or heavy-lift helicopters available to supply them at forward airfields? Can my hon. Friend say anything about the report about a form of exchange deal with the United States as against W.G.13s produced in this country?
    Mr. Price: My answer to the latter part of my hon. Friend's question is, "No". The former part is an operational requirement question, and he should put it to my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence.

    V./S.T.O.L. Aircraft
    Sir A. Meyerasked the Minister of Aviation Supply what discussions he has had with European Governments for the joint production and procurement of vertical/short take-off landing aircraft.
    Mr. David Price: None, but officials have been and continue to be in touch.
    Sir A. Meyer: Is my hon. Friend aware that such aircraft may very well be the hope for the future of the aircraft industry, and that to develop them effectively is likely to be beyond the resources of any one nation State? Is he aware that consequently the only way to do this is in co-operation with the countries of Europe? Will he assure us that the spirit of the approach to the matter will be that co-operation is based on the effective sharing out of contracts and not merely on the basis of Buggins' turn and all parties getting as much money back from the project as they put into it?
    Mr. Price: My hon. Friend has raised a number of questions about the nature of international co-operation and I must answer in the compass of a short reply. I prefer to defer that until another time. With regard to joint ventures in V.T.O.L. or S.T.O.L. aircraft, as my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation Supply said in answer to an earlier Question, we do not see any immediate likelihood of hard projects, but very much study work must be done.
    Mr. Bishop: Does the Minister recall his right hon. Friend saying on 4th December that there were various problems which must be sorted out? Can he indicate progress in that direction?
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    Does not he accept that if the project is to be a European venture we should seek to have it funded internationally to carry the load?
    Mr. Price: Yes, Sir. All this is under consideration. Quite a lot of study work has been commissioned both domestically in the United Kingdom and by some European countries under the general auspices of European civil aviation. This progress must be achieved before we can talk of a project for hardware.
    Mr. Marten: Does my hon. Friend recall that when my right hon. Friend replied to an earlier Question on short take-off and landing aircraft, he said that it was entirely a commercial matter for the aircraft firms? Will my hon. Friend confirm that this Question, which refers to European Governments, does not enter into the matter? Any co-operation is between firm and firm, regardless of whether we are in the Common Market or out of it.
    Mr. Price: With respect to my hon. Friend, although there is a lot of truth in what he says, the matter is not quite as simple as that. The operation of S.T.O.L. and particularly V.T.O.L. aircraft has considerable consequences for land and land use planning. Proper co-ordination involves Governments and local authorities, and there is little virtue in the manufacturers going ahead with their own projects.
    Mr. Dalyell: On design discussions how does the Minister reconcile his Answer of "None" to the hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) with the "Yes, Sir" which I received to a supplementary question on Question No. 3? I thought that it was the same.
    Mr. Price: I thought that someone would pick that up. What the hon. Gentleman has not detected is the difference between formal discussions between Governments in a formal negotiating sense and, what is true, that officials have been in touch and are continuing to be in touch, exchanging information on the general parameters of these projects.

    Air Holdings (Lockhead 1011s)
    Mr. Onslowasked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will now make a statement setting out the extent to which

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    the Air Holdings orders for Lockheed 1011s were underwritten by Her Majesty's Government.
    Mr. Corfield: I have nothing to add to my reply to a similar question by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher (Mr. Mather) on 13th January.—[Vol. 809, c. 78–79.]
    Mr. Onslow: How does that answer square with the assurances given by the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) to the French and Germans when we were considering entering the A300 project that there was no question of a British Government subsidy for an American competitor? Since there is such concern about the extent of public backing that will be necessary for the deal, has my right hon. Friend yet received the report from his accountants on Rolls-Royce's finances?
    Mr. Corfield: It would be simpler to put the first part of my hon. Friend's question to the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn). The situation is that, if my hon. Friend defines the Air Holdings contract as a subsidy, which I am not sure that he can—
    Mr. Onslow: It is.
    Mr. Corfield: —I think that at the material time the Government were supporting the A300B. The accountants' investigation is very thorough and cannot be made very quickly. I do not expect the report for several weeks.

    Rolls-Royce—Lockheed Contract
    Mr. Adleyasked the Minister of Aviation Supply whether Her Majesty's Government was a party to the contract between Rolls-Royce and Lockheed, under which Her Majesty's Government provided loan assistance to Rolls-Royce for the RB2-11 contract.
    Mr. Corfield: The Government are providing Rolls-Royce with launching aid to develop the RB211 for the Lockheed Tristar, but they were not a party to the contract between Rolls-Royce and Lockheed.
    Mr. Adley: If the Government were not a party to the contract, is it not extraordinary that £47 million of public funds were made available for the completion of the contract?
    Mr. Corfield: I am sure that my hon. Friend will appreciate that the Government launching aid policy, which has been followed by successive Governments, has always kept the Government out of the contractual relationship between the engine manufacturer and the airframe manufacturer.
    Mr. Palmer: Is Rolls-Royce now applying for further money? If so, is any upper limit to be fixed?
    Mr. Corfield: The only information I have about that is what I read in the newspapers, and no one has told me anything of a different nature.
    Mr. Onslow: Did the Government know the terms of the contract before agreeing to lend the company £47 million?
    Mr. Corfield: I think that the Government must have known. Although it was long before my time, I think that that is so.

    Short Brothers and Harland
    Mr. Onslowasked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will now make a statement on the recapitalisation of Short Brothers and Harland.
    Mr. Corfield: Not yet, Sir. The reconstruction of the company is currently being considered. I will make a statement in due course.
    Mr. Onslow: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the House hopes that he will be in a position to make that statement soon and that it will be of such kind that it will not be necessary for us to provide any further public money for this company?
    Mr. Corfield: I entirely share those sentiments.
    Mr. John Wells: Is there any intention of giving any restitution to Mr. Wrangham for the disgraceful treatment he had at the hands of the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn)?
    Mr. Corfield: No, Sir.
    Mr. Dalyell: What is the difference between helping Rolls-Royce and helping Short Brothers and Harland?
    Mr. Corfield: That may be clearer if the hon. Gentleman will await the outcome of these considerations.
    Mr. McMaster: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind, in expediting this decision, the importance to the employment situation in Northern Ireland of the work done at Shorts?
    Mr. Corfield: Yes, Sir.

    Aircraft Noise
    Mr. Gryllsasked the Minister of Aviation Supply what research the Government is undertaking to reduce aircraft noise; and if he will make a statement on the results of research already undertaken.
    Mr. David Price: We are spending £1¼ million a year on research towards quieter engines. Progress has been made in identifying sources of engine noise, the design of quieter components, and noise-attenuating techniques. The first results will show in the RB211.
    Mr. Grylls: While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that many people feel that the reduction of noise levels in future aircraft is rather more important than going for continuously increasing speed, and that if that is possible, the public would like it?
    Mr. Price: I am sure that everyone connected with the development of future aircraft is aware of the increasing importance of reducing noise levels.
    Mr. Pavitt: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the political impact of this during election time? In my constituency, one cannot canvass when aircraft are overhead. It takes 50 per cent. of good canvassing time away. Will he look at the political implications of aircraft noise?
    Mr. Price: The operation of aircraft is a question for the Department of Trade and Industry. My responsibility concerns the development of new aircraft and any modifications which can be done to existing aircraft.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that, in general, approach paths to airports are over areas of dense population and take-off paths are over less densely populated areas, and that efforts should be put into research on noise emanating from the
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    front end of the engine rather than that there should be too much concentration on the jet efflux at the rear?
    Mr. Price: There may be truth in what my hon. Friend says, but in fact many of the worse complaints which come in are about lateral noise which arises when aircraft are on the ground.

    Multi-rôle Combat Aircraft
    Mr. Wilkinsonasked the Minister of Aviation Supply what progress has been made in the multi-rôle combat aircraft development programme; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Corfield: As I stated in reply to a Question on 18th November, the first major phase of development is now under way on a tripartite basis.—[Vol. 806, c. 1217.]
    Mr. Wilkinson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this collaborative V.G. Project is, both operationally and industrially, the core of our long-term aircraft programme and has the most major implications for the future of advanced technology in this country and must be persevered with virtually at all costs?
    Mr. Corfield: I would share my hon. Friend's view, but I would not always accept the term "at all costs".
    Mr. Dalyell: What are the latest unit cost estimates from Panavia?
    Mr. Corfield: That must be the subject of another Question and I doubt whether we have the answer yet.
    Mr. Wall: Have these aircraft sufficient range for widespread use in the Royal Air Force?
    Mr. Corfield: That is a matter for my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence.

    European Space Research Organisation, Holland
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Minister of Aviation Supply if he will make an official visit to the European Space Research Organisation, Nordwijk, Holland.
    Mr. Corfield: I have no present plans to visit the E.S.R.O. Establishment at Nordwijk.
    Mr. Dalyell: Is it understood that, in the uncertainty surrounding their future, many of the best members of the staff are contemplating leaving?
    Mr. Corfield: The hon. Gentleman and I have discussed this matter on the Adjournment and I have nothing to add to what I said then.
    Mr. Palmer: In view of certain Continental doubts, will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the British Government's general support for E.S.R.O. remains undiminished?
    Mr. Corfield: I would qualify that by saying "French" rather than "Continental" doubts. We have no intention of withdrawing the support which we have already been giving.

    Aircraft Industry (Redundancies)
    Mr. William Rodgersasked the Minister of Aviation Supply how many redundancies have now been notified to him arising from the decision not to proceed with the BAC311; and what estimate is available of further reductions in employment in the aircraft industry during 1971.
    Mr. Corfield: B.A.C. has informed me of 870 redundancies following the decision not to proceed with the BAC311. It is not for me to anticipate the decisions of individual companies or to make my own forecasts of the level of employment, but I can say that I have received no indications from industry to suggest that there will be any major redundancies beyond those already announced during the rest of the year on present project expectations.
    Mr. Rodgers: Bearing in mind the figures given the other day by Hawker-Siddeley, giving an estimate of expected redundancies of from 2,000 to 2,500 by next summer, and also the right hon. Gentleman's reply today to Question No. 3, does not he consider it the Government's duty to place before the House a clear statement of the shape of the aircraft industry as they see it now?
    Mr. Corfield: I do not think that anything would be gained by that at the moment. Perhaps later it might be possible.
    Mr. Adley: If my right hon. Friend accedes to this request to publish a paper
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    on the aircraft industry, particularly the BAC311, will he do his best to stress the part which the Rolls-Royce situation has played in setting the present atmosphere, which has resulted in the Government feeling themselves unable to go ahead with the 311, a decision which many of us feel is disastrous for the British aircraft industry?
    Mr. Corfield: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments, but they refer to a hypothetical situation.
    Mr. Walter Johnson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that redundancies are gathering pace in the aircraft industry and that this is very worrying to those who work in it and is having the effect that highly skilled personnel are leaving? It is very difficult to recruit the right type of people to an industry when such redundancies are taking place.
    Mr. Corfield: I appreciate all those factors, and we take them seriously into account. But the question of overcapacity in the aircraft industry is not confined to the United Kingdom or to Europe but extends to America as well.

    Thurleigh (Pilot Training)
    Mr. Skeetasked the Minister of Aviation Supply why he authorised the transfer of the training of pilots belonging to the British Overseas Airways Corporation and other airlines from Stansted to Thurleigh before he had ascertained the noise contours of the many villages likely to be affected in north Bedfordshire.
    Mr. Corfield: Noise contours would have added little to our knowledge of the problem. The increase in disturbance relates to the extension of the airfield's operating hours rather than to the noise levels of individual aircraft. None of the B.O.A.C. aircraft produces highe-noise levels than the types of aircraft currently using the airfield.
    Mr. Skeet: Surely my right hon. Friend could have attempted to work out the noise contours before he reached his decision? Surely he is sacrificing the public to administrative convenience.
    Mr. Corfield: There is no administrative inconvenience about it. As I have explained, these flights are of exactly the same type as have been undertaken

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    from that airfield for many years. It is an extension and therefore the investigation my hon. Friend has in mind would not have helped in any way.
    Mr. Tebbit: Is my right hon. Friend aware—indeed, is my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mr. Skeet) aware—that the airlines already have enormously high costs which they bear in going many hundreds of miles for local training? Many airlines, notably B.O.A.C., are doing no conversion training anywhere near either Bedford or Stansted, and my constituents living near Stansted are grateful to my right hon. Friend for helping to share this burden of noise from essential training around the country.
    Mr. Corfield: That is a factor one has to take into account. The plain fact is that no one wants this noise, but there is some merit in trying to spread it more fairly and evenly as time goes on.
    Mr. Skeetasked the Minister of Aviation Supply why, since the movements at Thurleigh are expected reach 40,000 in June, 1972, roughly equivalent to those at Stansted today, he did not take steps to ascertain public opinion at an earlier stage before authorising the transfer of the noise burden involved in the training of pilots for airlines from Stansted to Thurleigh.
    Mr. Corfield: The extended use of Thurleigh for training flights does not involve the introduction of a new activity, but only an increase in a type of flying already undertaken there.
    Mr. Skeet: Surely the Minister must realise that the local authorities should have been consulted on this matter in the first instance because it must lead to an intensification of the noise involved in asymetric flying. Why did he not consult them? Is he not aware that Bedfordshire expressed the view that if the proposal were to be carried through, the environment would be seriously affected?
    Mr. Corfield: My experience in these matters is that no local authority will do anything other than resist any increase in noise. This is a marginal increase, and I have set up a consultative committee between officials of the R.A.E., Bedford,
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    and the local authorities, and I undertake to my hon. Friend to watch their proceedings and to see that their representations are considered.
    Mr. Hastings: Does the Minister agree that the trouble lies in the short notice given to everybody concerned about this intention? Is there not some danger—indeed something has already appeared in the Press to this affect—that these training flights will be extended to other airlines? Therefore, is there not some ground for apprehension locally? Perhaps the situation might have been made easier if everybody concerned had been told in good time, instead of at a few days' notice.
    Mr. Corfield: I note my hon. Friend's comments. I do not entirely agree with them, but I am keeping an eye on the extent to which this use would be further intensified in future.

  ENVIRONMENT

    Council House Rents (Greater London Council)
    Mr. Leonardasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what request he has received from the Greater London Council, under the Rent (Control of Increases) Act, 1969, for permission to increase council house rents in 1971 by an average of more than 7s. 6d. per week.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Paul Channon): The Greater London Council do not require my right hon. Friend's agreement under the Act to the rent increases they propose to make in 1971.
    Mr. Leonard: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Greater London Council recently announced increases averaging a total of 30s. over the next three years, which works out at an average of 10s. during 1971? How can he reconcile his refusal to act with the Prime Minister's clear pledge before the last General Election to act directly to reduce public sector prices?
    Mr. Channon: It is all very well for the hon. Member to say that. I say to him what I said in my original answer, that under the Act which was passed by the Labour Government the Greater London Council do not require to have my right

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    hon. Friend's agreement to rent increases which they propose to make this year.

    House Building, Brent
    Mr. Pavittasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the number of sites which had been acquired by the London Borough of Brent for building housing accommodation still available for building starts on 1st January, 1967, the number of units envisaged, the number of sites which have since been sold or offered for sale, and the number of units which will now not be built.
    Mr. Channon: The hon. Member should apply for this information direct to the London Borough of Brent who have the precise details of the date on which they acquired sites and their plans relating to them.
    Mr. Pavitt: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a tremendous shortfall in the housing programme because of such sites being sold? I am grateful to him for twisting the borough's arm in getting the rent rebate scheme put back in the area. Is he aware that in my constituency there are 9,800 people without fixed baths, 21,000 families who share baths, and 19,000 who share lavatories? Could he do something about the appalling conditions in the Borough of Brent by using his political influence on that borough?
    Mr. Channon: I do not accept the implications of that supplementary question. We are all worried about housing conditions not only in Brent but in other parts of the country. I am delighted to see that the Borough of Brent propose to put to tender so many dwellings next year.
    Mr. Freeson: Could the hon. Gentleman reconsider the last part of his reply and reserve his delight for a future occasion when this local authority increases its building programme? Is he not aware that there has been a cut of over 4,000 housing starts in the housing programme in 1969–72 by the present Conservative administration in the Borough of Brent?
    Mr. Channon: What the House will be pleased to learn is that the council propose to put to tender nearly 2,000
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    dwellings this year and over 1,000 in 1972 and 1973. I hope that that will be considered to be a worth-while programme.

    Rural Transport Services
    Mr. John Hallasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations have been made to him, in the light of the rapid breakdown of rural transport services, to provide alternative transport services in co-operation with the General Post Office.
    The Minister for Transport Industries (Mr. John Peyton): Without accepting all the implications of the Question, I can say that I have received a number of general representations on this subject.
    Mr. Hall: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Post Office make at least one collection per day from most of the rural areas which are at the moment without any form of public transport? Would he not, in conjunction with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications, carry out an investigation into the possibility of having a combined postal/transport service for these areas, on similar lines to those which operate so successfully in other countries and in some parts of this country?
    Mr. Peyton: Yes, Sir. I understand the anxieties that lie behind the Question. Discussions of the kind to which my hon. Friend referred are taking place between my Department and the Post Office.
    Mr. Cant: Would the hon. Gentleman not persuade his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment that the only adequate solution to this problem is to publish a White Paper enshrining the proposals of the Maud Commission on Local Government so that the city regions of this country could introduce a systematic solution to the problem of rural transport?
    Mr. Peyton: The hon. Gentleman is a good deal more trusting in the efficacy of White Papers than I am.
    Mr. Evelyn King: Is the Minister aware that, in fact, rural bus services have already broken down and that in Dorset there will be an estimated loss of £300,000 in the coming year, that services

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    have been withdrawn on a wholesale scale and fares have been raised to a degree which cannot be paid by low-income earners? Would he treat this as a matter of great urgency?
    Mr. Peyton: I assure my hon. Friend that I am in no way ignoring the gravity of this problem. He referred to its particular impact on Dorset. I assure him that Somerset is going through the same experience. But underlying it is the fact that the operation of buses, particularly in country areas, recently has become very unprofitable.
    Mr. Armstrong: Would the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there are many people in rural areas who are still dependent on public transport? Would he take the initiative, following his circular, by calling together local authorities and bus companies so that the position could be examined and some relief given to this desperate problem?
    Mr. Peyton: I assure the House and the hon. Gentleman that the matter is being thoroughly examined, but I should be deceiving the House if I were to suggest that there was some hope of a very easy and painless solution to be obtained by merely calling people together.

    Expanded Towns
    Miss Fookesasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the policy of the Government with regard to expanded towns; and if he will make a statement.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Michael Heseltine): As my hon. Friend will know, the Town Development Act, 1952 was introduced by a Conservative Government to enable local authorities to provide houses for families from the congested areas. Our belief that this is a sensible policy is unchanged and we intend to see that it is used to the best advantage.
    Miss Fookes: In view of that answer, would my hon. Friend please see, where projects are awaiting decision by the Minister, that action is taken quickly? I have in mind one case in which the Greater London Council, as the exporting authority, held a public inquiry last January, which is 12 months ago, and in which
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    there has still been no answer from the Minister.
    Mr. Heseltine: If my hon. Friend would like to write to me giving specific details, I will try to reply to her. We have to take into account a large number of factors but, compatible with the situation, we try to move with all reasonable speed.

    New Towns
    Sir B. Rhys Williamsasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the long-term policy of the Government in respect of new town corporations and the New Towns Commission; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Brayasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will introduce legislation to give control of the assets and property of new town corporations to local authorities.
    Mr. Allasonasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his policy with regard to the retention of the Commission for New Towns.
    Mr. Channon: I fully expect that developments under the New Towns Act will continue as an element in national and regional strategies, but I shall look for greater participation by private capital and a much higher level of owner-occupation. I have no plans to legislate for the transfer of new town assets to local authorities. The Commission have an important continuing task and I envisage the future transfer to them of other new towns as development corporations complete their tasks.
    Sir B. Rhys Williams: Is my hon. Friend aware that the House will welcome the Government's interest in giving an opportunity to private enterprise to take part in the development of new towns? Will he also bear in mind the importance at the planning stage of taking account of the interests of local residents?
    Mr. Channon: Yes, certainly. I agree with everything my hon. Friend says and I take note of the points he makes.
    Mr. Bray: I thank the Minister for his encouraging reply. In the interim could he make houses in development areas

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    available on preferential terms on the same basis as occurs in Skelmersdale?
    Mr. Channon: Perhaps I could look at the specific case and at the point about Skelmersdale.
    Mr. Allason: In view of the anxiety of the local authorities to take over the assets of the New Towns Commission, is my hon. Friend satisfied that the assets are properly valued? If they are valued at book value they become a very attractive proposition, but if they are valued at current market value they are not quite so attractive.
    Mr. Channon: My hon. Friend puts his finger on an important point. If there were any question of a transfer to the local authorities the valuation of these assets would be an extremely difficult and complicated matter.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Is the Minister aware that there will be great anxieties about the implications of what he said about the future of the new towns and their relationship to local authorities? Many of us are concerned that there should be proper democratic control in some of these cases. Would he not agree there is a need for some debate about this matter?
    Mr. Channon: It is certainly a very important matter on which hon. Members will wish to express views. But I do not think there is any doubt that there has been some prolonged uncertainty, and my right hon. Friend and I wish to see the New Towns Commission retained.
    Mr. Tebbit: Is my hon. Friend aware that his reply will give great comfort to those of us who feel that the local councils have special qualities and structures which suit them for local government, but that they are not factors which suit them to run such major business enterprises as new towns?
    Mr. Channon: I appreciate what my hon. Friend says and I should like to say how much I enjoyed the visit to Harlow New Town which I had the pleasure of making recently.
    Mr. Freeson: Can we not get the record clear? May we be clearly told whether this is a continuing decision or a provisional decision—as to whether this
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    is a retention of these assets in the New Towns Commission, or whether there is an intention to review the matter and pursue it with the possibility of passing over assets to local authorities in future?
    Mr. Channon: My right hon. Friends have decided that the New Towns Commission should remain and we envisage that future transfer to it of other towns would be done as the development corporations complete their task.

    Overspill Schemes
    Mr. Arthur Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what steps he proposes to ensure that the private sector of housing plays a substantial part in overspill schemes in general, and at Daventry in particular.
    Mr. Channon: New Town development corporations and the local authorities in expanding towns are already encouraged to make land available for private sector housing. In Daventry since 1966 about one-quarter of the new houses have been privately built. Private development is pending on 22½ acres, and a further 24 acres are likely to be released for private housing in the next 12 months.
    Mr. Jones: I note what my hon. Friend said in reply to an earlier Question about the level of rented accommodation and owner-occupation in the new towns. Without exception, both in the new towns and in town development schemes, these are out of balance very substantially. In view of the commitment into which the previous Administration entered, with a 50–50 break, how does my hon. Friend see this becoming a reality?
    Mr. Channon: There is every prospect in the New Towns Commission of being able to progress towards these targets at a reasonably early date. I hope that it will also be possible in the expanding towns. But there are difficult problems in many areas. I should very much welcome constructive suggestions and should like to discuss the matter with my hon. Friend.

    National Association of Waste Disposal Contractors
    Mr. Arthur Jonesasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what

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    contact his Department maintains with the National Association of Waste Disposal Contractors; and what advice concerning the development of total destruction complexes that body has tendered.
    The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Peter Walker): The Association gave evidence to the Working Party on Refuse Disposal and representatives of the Association met officials of the Department in December, 1970, for an informal discussion of waste disposal problems. No advice has been tendered by the Association concerning the development of total destruction complexes.
    Mr. Jones: My right hon. Friend will be aware of the increasing lack of dumping facilities for refuse. Does he not agree that these destruction schemes will become a necessary part of refuse disposal and will he encourage such schemes?
    Mr. Walker: The Government will encourage such schemes and I hope that suitable reform of local government will enable this matter to be put on a more rational basis.
    Mr. Dalyell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at a recent meeting of the Science and Technology Committee representatives of the industry thought that his Department could be more positive in this matter?
    Mr. Walker: We received a report on this matter only a few weeks ago, and we are currently asking local authorities to tackle the matter in a more efficient manner than has occurred in the past. I hope that our arrangements on the future construction of local government will substantially assist.

    Transport Holding Company (Chairman)
    Mr. Goldingasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what terms of reference have been given to Mr. Lewis Gilmour Whyte on his appointment as Chairman of the Transport Holding Company.
    Mr. Peyton: I am discussing with Mr. Whyte the future of the Transport Holding Company and its subsidiaries, and I hope to make a statement shortly.
    Mr. Golding: Is the Minister aware that there is great concern throughout the nationalised industries about the proposal to hive off profitable sectors, which includes Thomas Cook and Sons? Is he further aware that there is considerable suspicion among working people in the nationalised industries, following the dismissal of Lord Hall and the refusal by Lord Robens to serve further on the National Coal Board, that chairmen will be appointed who are prepared to do the Government's bidding in getting rid of concerns over which they are put in control?
    Mr. Peyton: I am not aware of any of the proposals to which the hon. Gentleman refers. I would comment that, if there is anxiety in any of these concerns, I cannot believe that it will be allayed by the sort of allegations the hon. Gentleman has made.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS

    Prime Minister's Questions
    Mr. Carterasked the Lord President of the Council if he will seek to have the Prime Minister's period of Question Time extended from 15 minutes to 30 minutes.
    The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw): No, Sir.
    Mr. Carter: I thank the Leader of the House for that extremely detailed reply. Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that back benchers will be extremely disappointed with his reply—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I speak for myself—as many of us have tabled large numbers of Questions? I have tabled a large number of Questions to the Prime Minister which he has transferred to other Ministers, possibly because he does not want to reply to them. Does the Leader of the House agree that a longer period at Question Time would make it possible for back benchers to put more Questions to the Prime Minister?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman appreciates that since my right hon. Friend became Prime Minister he has answered substantially more Questions than were answered by his predecessor.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: While appreciating the enthusiasm of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Carter) for listening to the Prime Minister at much greater length, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether experience in this Parliament justifies the recommendation of the Select Committee on Procedure in the last Parliament for a modest increase in the time available for Questions generally by bringing Question Hour up to a full hour?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I have promised the House that I will shortly bring forward proposals following that Report about the future of Question Time. That I will do.

    Public Expenditure Committee
    Mr. Sheldonasked the Lord President of the Council if he will make a further statement on the setting up of the Public Expenditure Committee.
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Lord President of the Council when he now expects to establish the Select Committee on Public Expenditure.
    Mr. Whitelaw: I hope that the Motion establishing the Select Committee will be tabled this week.
    Mr. Sheldon: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that most welcome, gratifying news, may I ask whether he will tell us what will be the number of Members on the Committee and, most important of all, the number of staff which will be seconded to it?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I would ask the hon. Gentleman, as I am sure he will appreciate, to await the Motion which I shall be putting on the Order Paper.
    Concerning the membership of the Committee, having originally in the Green Paper proposed 45, I shall propose in the Motion that it should be 49.
    I shall be discussing the number of staff with the Chairman as soon as the Committee is set up. We shall then consider how best we can meet his requirements.
    Mr. Hamilton: Will the full Committee have power—I will not use the expression "hive-off"—to divide itself into such sub-committees as it desires? If so, will the right hon. Gentleman make
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    absolutely certain that there will be adequate staff, so that there will not be a doubling-up of the activities of, say, one clerk to take responsibility for one or two, or even three, sub-committees?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I am sympathetic to what the hon. Gentleman says. When the Committee is set up, I shall want to discuss the whole question of staffing with the Chairman. I should like to await that discussion before being certain what can be done to help. I want to help as best I can.

    Parliamentary Questions (Department of the Environment)
    Mr. Spearingasked the Lord President of the Council if he is aware that the effective Question Time allocated to the Department of the Environment between 27th October and 18th December was approximately 165 minutes compared with approximately 270 minutes allocated to the equivalent Departments on the original Question schedule for that period; and if he will now take steps to increase the time allocated to the Department of the Environment so that its first place time is equivalent to that given to the displaced Departments.
    Mr. Whitelaw: Although I do not think the hon. Member's comparison is a valid one, I am sure that he knows that I am always willing to consider changes through the usual channels, if that appears to be the general wish.
    Mr. Spearing: Concerning validity, is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that the figures which I have provided are not correct or that they are an inadequate reflection on what is likely to occur in the House?
    Mr. Whitelaw: In the first instance, the problem is complex because, in making a comparison, one must take into account not only the occasions on which a Department is top for Questions but the likelihood of its being reached when it is not top. That is certainly a possibility in the particular case to which the hon. Gentleman refers.
    Concerning the roster, having had considerable experience both in Opposition in the last Parliament and now in Government, I can say that one of the great problems in preparing a Question roster

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    is that it is impossible to satisfy everyone's requirements and needs. I am certainly prepared to do my best.
    Mr. Cant: While appreciating that the number of minutes devoted to Questions is of paramount importance, may I ask the Leader of the House to try to persuade his right hon. Friend that his Department would acquire much greater status in terms of improving the environment if it would place the reclamation of land in the key sector of capital expenditure when he comes to think about this problem some time in the future, and whether he would talk to him about this matter with particular reference to the City of Stoke-on-Trent?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I learn most things very slowly, but one thing which I have learned since I have been Leader of the House is that it is extremly unwise for me to depart from questions of Business into questions of policy. I will, therefore, not be tempted on this occasion.

    Accommodation for Physical Exercise
    Mr. Dormandasked the Lord President of the Council when he expects accommodation for physical exercise to be available in the proposed new Parliamentary building.
    Mr. Whitelaw: When the new building is completed. On present plans, this should be 1978.
    Mr. Dormand: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that that is far too long to wait? Will the right hon. Gentleman re-examine the position in this building to see whether a room can be made available immediately? Surely there must be some tiny corner in this huge Palace which can be used for this important purpose and which could be equipped at very little cost. Judging from the recent photograph of the Prime Minister, perhaps he would be happy to join me very quickly in taking advantage of such facilities.
    Mr. Whitelaw: While never wishing to follow any comments about individuals concerning physical exercise—because I realise how intensely vulnerable I permanently am—I would only say that there is a great demand in this House for accommodation for Members to do their
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    work as Members of Parliament. This must take precedence over other clearly desirable requirements.
    Mr. James Hamilton: Will the Lord President of the Council pay attention to what has been said by my hon. Friend, as many of his own colleagues will not be here in 1978 and will, therefore, want to avail themselves of some accommodation during the transitional period? Will the right hon. Gentleman make premises available now to those of us who are keep-fit addicts?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I must stick to my previous reply, except to add that if I am one of those who will be here in 1978 I shall certainly be less inclined to physical exercise than I am now.

    Palace of Westminster (Smoking Regulations)
    Sir J. Langford-Holtasked the Lord President of the Council what action he intends to take with regard to smoking regulations in the Palace of Westminster as a result of the Second Report of the Royal College of Physicians.
    Mr. Whitelaw: I believe this is a matter best left to the general wishes of hon. Members.
    Sir J. Langford-Holt: As a smoker, may I put in a plea for the non-smokers who, in the places where public business is done, have no way of getting away from the stench raised by the rest of us by our smoking habits?
    Mr. Whitelaw: As a non-smoker, I can only reply that there are many places in the Palace of Westminster where smoking is not allowed. This is a matter which can be carefully considered, but it is obviously one in which the wishes of all Members must be taken into account.

    Members' Salaries (Review Body)
    Sir G. Nabarroasked the Lord President of the Council (1) when and where the review body dealing with Members of Parliament's salaries, emoluments and allowances in cash or kind, will sit; how Members may give oral evidence; in what form the report of the investigating body will be published; and whether the first report will be available before Easter;

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    (2) whether he will now publish the names of the persons comprising the review body dealing with Members of Parliament's salaries, emoluments and allowances in cash or kind; whether Privy Councillors and Members of Parliament in both Houses will sit on the body; and whether party political balance is to be accomplished.
    Mr. Whitelaw: The composition of the review body is still under consideration, but my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister hopes to be able to announce the membership in the near future. Detailed arrangements in connection with the review of Members' pay will need to be considered when the Chairman of the review body has been appointed. It is not possible at this stage to forecast the timing of any reports.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the inordinate delays which have occurred in recent years in dealing with this pressing matter—not only the question of Members' pay, but the deplorable conditions of Members' allowances, accommodation, services and everything which goes to make up efficiency in a Member of Parliament's work which is thoroughly derogated by both this and the last Government? Cannot the matter be treated with some urgency, not in a dilatory fashion?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I think that my hon. Friend is being somewhat less than fair on the question of allowances. Both the previous Government and the present Government have made considerable improvements in Members' allowances. I feel that the step taken—and I fully recognise the important part played in this by the right hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton)—in setting up a review body and agreeing to refer the whole question of Ministers' and Members' pay and allowances to that body, as was said at the time when we had a debate on the right hon. Gentleman's Bill, once in every Parliament of normal length, is a very considerable step forward in a matter which this House has always found extremely difficult to deal with. I hope, therefore, that my hon. Friend will feel that this matter of allowances is being tackled by the present Government, as it was by the previous Government, as is also the major matter to which he refers.
    Mr. Heffer: Will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that when the review body discusses the whole question it will also look into the status of hon. Members' secretaries? The position at the moment is most unsatisfactory, and many hon. Members feel that their secretaries should receive emoluments, and have conditions of work, similar to Civil Service conditions, but that their secretaries should be appointed by hon. Members themselves, obviously on the basis of the right type of secretary that the hon. Member wants.—[Laughter.] This is a very serious matter. Can the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that this question of secretarial status will be looked into by this body?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I think that I should be wise, in responding to what I recognise to be a very proper and important point put by the hon. Member, to say that I should like to consider further whether this is a matter appropriate to be considered by the review body or whether the question of providing accommodation in this building for hon. Members' secretaries is not far more a matter for the Services Committee and for ourselves.

POST OFFICE (DISPUTE)
The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Robert Carr): I should like, with permission, to make a statement about the Post Office dispute.
I held a long series of meetings yesterday with representatives of the Post Office and of the Union of Post Office Workers, ending with a meeting of both sides under my chairmanship. I very much regret that despite these protracted discussions the dispute remains unresolved. Throughout the talks, the positions of the two sides remained firmly as they had been when negotiations broke down.
The Union maintained strongly that the only basis for a settlement was a substantial increase in the Post Office's offer and justified its claim in relation to the level of settlements in the last twelve months, and as being necessary to maintain the relative position of its members.
For its part, the Post Office regard its present offer as the limit to which it can go in view not only of its present financial position but also because of the damage

1069
to its longer term commercial viability, in view of the scale and timing of further increases in charges which an improved offer would make necessary, and the effects of such increases on the volume of its business.
Nevertheless, the Post Office confirmed its willingness to go to arbitration under its agreement with the union of last August, and be bound by the award. The Post Office maintained that this agreement placed an obligation on the union, if the Post Office so required, as it has done, to join the Post Office in asking me to refer the dispute to arbitration.
The union, however, is not prepared to go to arbitration. Moreover, it takes the view that the agreement does not require one party to accept arbitration if the other party requires it, and its representatives explained to me that they would not have signed the agreement had it in their view placed such an obligation on them.
From my reading of the agreement, which I find clear on this point, I agree with the Post Office's view. I must accept, however—and I promised that I would make this clear to the House, as I am doing now—as did the Post Office representatives, that the difference arises from a genuine misunderstanding.
At the end of the talks, Mr. Jackson expressed his thanks for the genuine attempts that had been made during our discussion to try to find a basis for conciliation, and asked me to report this to the House. The Post Office representatives associated themselves with this expression of appreciation, and I should like to say how grateful I am to both sides for it.
I finally made clear that I would hold myself available for further discussions if either side should at any time feel that this would be useful.
Mrs. Castle: In thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that statement, may I confirm how grateful the union is to the right hon. Gentleman for having brought the two sides together under his chairmanship last night, and how much it appreciated the way in which he personally handled the meeting, in keeping, as Mr. Tom Jackson put it, with the best conciliation traditions of the D.E.P? We are glad that the services of the D.E.P. are back in business, and may I
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ask the right hon. Gentleman to keep it that way? Will he assert his own rôle in this Government, and will he do everything in his power to persuade the Post Office to get round the table again with the union to find a settlement?
Mr. Carr: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for her remarks, and I want, if I can, to do nothing to spoil this unusual but pleasant harmony of view.
I probed long and deep to try to establish the real fundamental positions of the parties in order to discover whether there was any chance of helping them to come to their own agreement, and that, I believe, and always have believed, is the proper rôle of conciliation. We all had to agree, however regretfully, that the gap was unbridgeable at that moment.
I really do not think that I ought to say more. Least of all should I say anything which might be taken to mean that one side ought to move rather than another. I am sure that I am right in saying simply, as I did to the parties last night, that I am available for further discussion at any time if either side should think it useful.
Mr. Hastings: Will my right hon. Friend and the Government ensure that those Post Office employees—and there seem to be a fairly large number of them—who wish to continue working are not prevented from doing so, or are otherwise molested,—[HON. MEMBERS: "Blacklegs."]—by strikers' pickets?
Mr. Carr: There is a long-standing law in this country about peaceful picketing. The police have a duty in this matter and, may I say, so do the public themselves. This is not a matter for Ministers.
Mr. Charles R. Morris: While acknowledging the contribution of conciliation which the right hon. Gentleman has made in this dispute so far, may I ask whether he accepts that the nation will find it remarkable that, in a situation in which 250,000 employees of a public corporation are involved in an industrial dispute, the Minister who has responsibility for that public corporation has not found time during the dispute to meet the leadership of the union involved in it? Will the right hon. Gentleman caution his right hon. Friend, and certainly the

1071
Post Office Board, in regard to the forecasts which appeared in the earlier editions of the Press this morning about the effectiveness of this industrial dispute with regard to the nation's telephone services?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the latest figures available indicate that, as far as telephonists are concerned—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech."]—the strike is 94 per cent. effective? As far as the membership of the Union of Post Office Workers is concerned—
Hon. Members: Too long.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that the hon. Member has already managed to put about three supplementary questions.
Mr. Carr: My right hon. Friend the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications is properly answerable, and is very capable of answering, to the House for the conduct of his own responsibilities. I thought that the hiving off of the Post Office as a separate nationalised corporation which was conducted by the Labour Party when it was in power was clearly to establish that the Post Office Board was the employer and not the Minister.
Mr. Finsberg: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on returning to the conciliation policies of the old Ministry of Labour which were so ably conducted under the auspices of the right hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Gunter). Did the discussions which my right hon. Friend had yesterday with the Union of Post Office Workers result in his being in a position to make available to hon. Members the document containing the arbitration clause? Secondly, did he ask why the U.P.W., unlike the National Union of Mineworkers, did not put the offer to a ballot of its members?
Mr. Carr: The arbitration agreement is, of course, a private document and not a public one, but, since it is obviously of great importance, I will, if the House wishes it, seek the permission of the parties—but it must be for the parties to decide—to make available copies of the document in the Library, so that hon. Members may study it. I must emphasise that this is entirely up to the parties. On the second point, the question did not come up last night, but it is fair to put on record that on the occasion of the
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last settlement the union concerned put the offer to a ballot of its membership. Although this did not come up last night, I believe it would be the union's intention, when it feels able to recommend an offer, to do the same again.
Mr. John Mendelson: Will the right hon. Gentleman note that, whilst there is general support for his first approach in bringing the parties together so as to avoid misunderstanding of the position, it is the tradition of his office to go beyond that, if he judges it right, and to try to get the parties to see that there is a direction in which an agreement may be reached? This is the tradition of his office and it goes beyond merely bringing the two sides together for a confrontation and an exchange of information. In view of the seriousness of this strike, I urge him to act forthwith in carrying out the traditions of his office.
Mr. Carr: I believe that I have done so. I am supported in that view by the generously remarks of Mr. Jackson, generously repeated by the right hon. Lady a few moments ago, namely, that in what I and my officials did last night we were to the full fulfilling the traditions of my office.
Sir D. Walker-Smith: Although nobody would want to require the Post Office workers unwillingly to go to arbitration if they have inadvertently misconstrued the agreement, cannot efforts be made to allay these apprehensions about industrial arbitration which has an honourable and useful record going back over 50 years and whose continued existence will be in jeopardy if it is frequently rejected?
Mr. Carr: I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend, and I said openly to Mr. Jackson last night that, while I would report my view that the misunderstanding was an absolutely genuine one in full good faith, nevertheless, I would be bound to say what was my interpretation of the agreement and also to express the view that it was the right course to adopt. I particularly pursued with the union representatives the question whether there was arbitration under any other form which they would be prepared to consider, and I received a polite but nevertheless firm "No" to that question.
Mr. James Hamilton: We on this side of the House recognise that the right hon.

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Gentleman is doing a very good job, but will he recognise that the trade unions have a great fear of arbitration? Will he disregard the statement made by the hon. Member for Bedford, Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Hastings) which will aggravate the situation, and will he try to get conciliation between the two parties? Mr. Jackson is recognised on this side of the House as one of the most responsible trade union leaders. On that basis a settlement can easily be reached if the right hon. Gentleman, in accordance with his statement, continues to try to get conciliation between the two parties.
Mr. Carr: I accept what the hon. Gentleman says. I can only report, however regretfully—and the regret was felt equally by all three parties last night, although for different reasons—that we really could not get any further by any form of conciliation known to man as things stand at the moment. That was fully agreed, and that is why I said to both sides how serious the dispute was and went out of my way to emphasise my availability to them.
Mr. Bruce—Gardyne: Further to the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Hastings), will my right hon. Friend assure the House that there is no truth in reports being circulated by the union to the effect that employees reporting for duty during the strike would not be paid by the Post Office Corporation?
Mr. Carr: I know of no truth in those reports. It is the first time that the matter has been put to me.
Mr. Orme: Following the welcome new-found impartiality which Mr. Jackson so generously bestowed on the Minister last night, can the right hon. Gentleman say that the Post Office is completely independent and free to arrive at a settlement, and that the Government are in no way trying to influence it, particularly in view of the statement last night of the Chancellor of the Exchequer about wage increases? Are the Government involved in this, or are they not?
Mr. Carr: Perhaps if the hon. Gentleman doubts my word he might take the word of Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Orme: I have done so.
Mr. Carr: Mr. Jackson went out of his way to say to the Press last night that one result of his meetings yesterday evening had been to satisfy himself that he was dealing with a properly independent employer.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That the Proceedings on the Motion for the Adjournment of the House may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour during a period of one hour after Ten o'clock, though opposed; and that the Proceedings on the Hospital Endowments (Scotland) Bill and the Guardianship of Minors Bill [Lords] may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour, though opposed.—[Mr. Pym.]

TRANSPORT (LONDON) AMENDMENT
3.49 p.m.
Mr. Nigel Spearing: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to empower the establishment of further transport users' consultative bodies within Greater London.
Before I turn to the reasons for the Bill and its proposals, the House should know that, throughout London—[Interruption.]—and particularly in my constituency of Acton, there is great concern about the services provided by London Transport and relations of that body with the travelling public. We are all aware of the difficulties faced by London Transport, particularly due—[Interruption.]
Mr. Russell Kerr: On a point of order. Some of us are having difficulty in hearing my hon. Friend. May we please either delay proceedings or ask the rest of the House to be quiet?
Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Member for his point of order. I hope that it may have served its purpose.
Mr. Spearing: I too am grateful for the intervention of my hon. Friend.
The House will appreciate that these matters are of concern to people in London, despite the great matters of State which we are about to debate. When differences of view occur between local authorities in the London area and the London Transport Executive, there are difficulties in resolving them, and this is giving cause for concern to local authorities. I wish to stress that, throughout my discussion with London Transport on these matters, I have received the greatest courtesy. There are people throughout London Transport who are very keen to provide the best possible services for the public.
I would commend this Measure by outlining the existing statutory provisions, explaining why I believe they are inadequate, and will conclude by placing the provisions of the Bill in a context of some political themes which are common today.
As the House will know, the direct responsibility for London Transport was
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transferred from the former Minister of Transport to the Greater London Council under the Transport (London) Act, 1969, section 14 of which makes provision for a users' consultative body with powers to consider any matter covering the services and facilities provided by the London Transport Executive, other than charges and the closure of stations or railway lines. Consultative procedures for services provided by British Rail are not covered by that Act.
The Greater London Council has established a Passengers' Committee, members of which have been appointed by bodies representative of people travelling in London. When the Bill was going through the House, there were moves by hon. Members on both sides to provide direct representation from the London boroughs but this did not become part of the Act.
In the relatively short period in which the consultative body has been in operation, difficulties have arisen. It is difficult for a body of this sort both to deal with broad policy matters and to handle details of significance to each particular area. Further, the information provided for this Committee is provided by London Transport itself, and the committee has no direct access to information provided by London borough councils. This is of particular importance to boroughs in outer London areas, in many of which there are bus fleets as large as those of many provincial towns, and where the system and balance of operations is to and from suburban centres.
Thus, the boroughs, with great responsibility for most of their own affairs, have only tenuous links with the public authority responsible for their own public transport, and the lack of links is a cause of tension between the authorities concerned. The G.L.C. does not have powers in respect of day-to-day management, and it is therefore difficult for the boroughs to get into realistic touch with London Transport on matters where there is a dispute. If it is difficult for them, it is equally difficult, if not more so, for the travelling public, and there is a great deal of disquiet in this respect.
The purpose of the Bill is to resolve these difficulties by giving the G.L.C. additional optional powers—I stress that they are optional—and it will in no way detract from the responsibility of the

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Greater London Council, placed on it by Parliament, for London Transport, or the responsibility of the London Transport Executive for day-to-day management; but it will affect the way in which that management is responsible to the public it serves.
The Bill will provide a statutory framework within which the G.L.C., in consultation with the London boroughs, can create further consultative committees, either for specific purposes or to cover specific areas. I am not suggesting that this would be for every borough, and there may be a variety of provision throughout the London area. The G.L.C. will decide, after appropriate consultations, the terms of reference of any committees created and their associated powers of direction and recommendation.
Provision will be made in appropriate circumstances for the London boroughs to provide office accommodation and facilities, payment for officials who are concerned with these committees, and for their members to be eligible for the usual local government allowances. Provision will also be made for areas adjacent to the Greater London area, which also have services run by the London Transport Executive, to be brought into this new framework of consultative bodies. Indeed, non-statutory conferences and standing committees in these areas are already in operation.
While the Bill may appear of limited significance, I believe that it draws together many of the challenges which we face in democratic government today. Healthy urban living requires efficient and inexpensive public transport, and the Bill will assist in providing it. A public enterprise giving personal service should have a management which is particularly sensitive to the needs of its consumers. The Bill, by permitting a more flexible system—and one which can change over time—of consultative bodies, would maintain "the public need" as a major factor in management decisions.
In a democratic society, the public require information and explanation of the public services which they use. For many people in London today, the quality of life depends largely on the quality of their public transport. Where difficult decisions have to be made or alternative policies are available, the public should be able to acquaint them-
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selves swith those difficulties, Unless this is possible, lack of confidence and cynicism in democratic processes begins to increase.
I have referred to the difficulties facing London Transport. These new bodies could be channels of two-way consultation. Town planning and traffic management matters could be discussed in these bodies. Wise decisions on planning and traffic matters require full and relevant information. Where there is a public official responsible for public transport, public transport planning could become an integral part of planning from the start. That is where it should be.
Early in the 1930s, this House passed the first London Transport Act, prepared by Herbert Morrison and seen through the House by a Conservative Minister. It was thought at the time that the Act would solve the problems of transport in London. Indeed, London Transport became a great organisation envied and copied throughout the world. Today, we face new challenges. They include the maintenance of a healthy urban society and the ability to adjust our democratic procedures to complex new demands. Unless such adjustments are made, democracy itself is imperilled by cynicism and decline in public confidence.
The Bill addresses itself to current needs, not by compulsion or by detailed requirements, but by providing a framework of law in which professional transport managers, local authorities and the public can work together in maintaining and strengthening the vital passenger services of one of the greatest urban transport authorities in the world. It is for these reasons that I beg leave to present the Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Spearing, Mr. R. W. Brown, Mr. John D. Grant, Mr. Russell Kerr, Mr. Pavitt, Mr. Prentice and Mr. Stallard.

TRANSPORT (LONDON) AMENDMENT
Bill to empower the establishment of further transport users' consultative bodies within Greater London, presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 26th March and to be printed. [Bill 87.]

EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
Motion made and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Fortescue.]
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon)rose—
Mr. Speaker: Before the right hon. Gentleman begins, I should say that I have had 60 requests from right hon. and hon. Members to make speeches, including a number of Privy Councillors and maiden speakers. I hope that the House will follow the example of the Adjournment debate yesterday, when we got through about 15 speeches in rather over two hours. I hope that speeches will be short so that I shall be able to call everyone.
Mr. T. L. Iremonger: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would it be in order to move an Amendment to the Motion, That this House do now adjourn, in the terms of Motion No. 217 in my name, on the subject of a referendum on the Common Market?
[That this House, while sympathetically disposed to any non-socialist scheme for international co-operation, and particularly so in the face of overt opposition from the British Left in and outside Parliament, and while recognising that the anxieties about Great Britain's joining the European Economic Community expressed by others are largely based upon misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the Treaty of Rome and its effects, and while retaining scepticism about the practicability and desirability of the expectations of the extreme European enthusiasts, believes that on balance there could well be scope for a fruitful association with the European communities on the basis of the Treaty of Rome; but none the less views with abhorrence the prospect of Her Majesty's Government's signing the Treaty on any terms even with the approval of Parliament without giving the electorate as a whole an opportunity of registering a view by referendum organised for that purpose; and believes that a majority against, if so ascertained, should decisively prevent Her Majesty's Government signing the Treaty.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. In my view, no.
Mr. Rippon: I am sure that the House will agree that this is a good moment in the life of the new Parliament to review the progress of the negotiations for our membership of the European Community. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and I have reported to the House on five occasions since the negotiations began. There has been a great deal of useful discussion in the House and in the country at large. Negotiations have made good headway and the negotiating partners are now well prepared to tackle the central issues. This is a time for drawing the threads together: for reviewing what has been achieved, for considering what lies ahead in the negotiations and, if they are successful, beyond.
For 10 years now successive British Governments have believed that membership of the Community is in the interest of this country—and of Europe as a whole—provided fair terms could be obtained. By fair terms I think we have meant terms that would take account of the particular interests and situation of this country and the Commonwealth, and the impact upon existing trading arrangements, particularly in the period of transition.
The present negotiations began with the previous Government's application, announced by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, then Prime Minister, in his statement to the House on 2nd May 1967. That statement, subsequently published as a White Paper, Cmnd. 3269, was approved by an overwhelming majority of Members of the last Parliament after three days of debate. In that statement the last Administration not only indicated the major issues to be resolved during the negotiations but also affirmed the broader economic and political considerations which determined the decision to apply for full membership of the European Economic Community.
As the then Prime Minister said:
"… whatever the economic arguments, the House will realise that … the Government's purpose derives above all, from our recognition that Europe is now faced with the opportunity of a great move forward in political unity and that we can—and indeed must—play our full part in it".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd May 1967; Vol. 746, c. 313–314.]

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The then Foreign Secretary went on to set out the Government's negotiating objectives in a statement at The Hague on 4th July, 1967. That statement explained how an enlarged Community would benefit Britain, Europe and the world at large. It also defined the matters which needed to be raised in the negotiations. Subject to changes which time has made inevitable, this statement remains broadly valid, and it was reprinted last year as Cmnd. 3345. For reasons beyond this country's control, the 1967 application could not make immediate headway. Matters remained at a virtual standstill until 1969, when a number of factors gave the movement towards European unity a fresh breath of life. The first major result was the summit meeting of the Six at The Hague at the end of that year. Since then they have worked steadily to complete the original tasks of the Community, to promote its further development and to make possible its enlargement. After the long years of frustration this new opportunity for progress was welcomed by the four countries who had applied for membership.
So it was that the Conservative Government did not shrink from the prospect of beginning negotiations only a few days after the General Election. There is here a broad continuity of theme and purpose.
I have said that the statement made by the previous Government in July, 1967, was one to which we could give general assent. This did not absolve us from the responsibility of examining very carefully all the issues at stake before my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer delivered the terms of our opening negotiating statement on behalf of the Government at Luxembourg on 30th June last year.
At the outset we set in train with the Six and the other applicants a fact-finding exercise which was completed in the autumn. This served two essential purposes: it ensured that both sides were thinking in broadly the same terms; and it established the dimensions of the problems involved. Without it the progress which has subsequently been made by both Ministers and their Deputies would scarcely have been possible.
I have regularly informed the House of the progress of these negotiations. Some have felt, I know, that the results
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have occasionally been presented in too detailed and statistical a fashion. I sympathise with this feeling. I understand how difficult it is for hon. Members, as for the general public, to have an overall view of what is happening simply by the process of making statements from time to time, often on rather detailed points, when hon. Members have no more than the opportunity for asking questions. So I shall now try to give an overall view as briefly as I can.
Setting aside our various agreements on points of detail, to which I shall return later, the Six and ourselves have narrowed the essential issues in the negotiations down to three. The most important of these to Britain is Community finance. We have already expressed our willingness to accept the Community's direct income system. There is no argument about it. I hope that is fully understood. What we now have to do is to determine how to deal with the transitional period.
The proposals we put forward on this point on 16th December were designed to adapt this country to the Community system on a fair and realistic basis. Through them we hope to achieve a mutual balance of advantages with our partners throughout the transitional period so that what are described as the impact effects in some fields are balanced by the dynamic effects in others. If the impact were—to use the jargon—greater than the dynamic in the early stages, we should all be in for trouble, the existing members of the Community as well as the new ones. The arrangements we propose follow closely what present members arranged for themselves. But our intention is not to obtain an exact mathematical balance.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: The in-word seems to be "dynamic". I should like to have it defined in the context of how it can fit into our future development as an industrial country.
Mr. Rippon: It is very important that my hon. Friend should read the various statements and White Papers to which I have referred, in which the words are used very freely and explained in detail.
The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, speaking as Prime Minister of the terms of entry in Strasbourg on the 23rd January, 1967, said:
"I hope the negotiations will be on a minimum number of particular issues and not

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on an infinity of details. Many of the details, many of the consequential decisions—important though they may be—can best be settled on a continuing basis from within the Community. Nor can the ultimate decision be based on a computerised analysis of finely balanced economic calculations".
As befits a member of a poetic family, he quoted Wordsworth, who once wrote:
"… high Heaven rejects the lore
Of nicely-calculated less or more".
What we have tried to do is to make such forecasts as are possible in order to show the scale of the problems involved. As I have explained to the House before, no one can know what the size and shape of the Community budget will be in five or eight years' time, nor the precise scale of our contribution to it and receipts from it. But one assumption most people are prepared to make is that agriculture will form a proportionately less important part of the budget—as regards both income and expenditure—than it does today. It is to be expected that more resources will be devoted to regional, social and industrial policies and programmes. And as agriculture diminishes in relative importance so our own situation in relation to the Community budget may be expected to improve. Those who see us carrying a perpetual burden of high contributions and low receipts in this respect have got the issues out of perspective.
Perhaps I might now clear up another misunderstanding. Some people in the Community have taken fright at what they describe as our demand for a review clause. We have not in fact asked for a specific safeguard, ceiling review or guarantee but simply, and we think that this is reasonable, some agreement to reflect the Community's own idea that if an unacceptable situation were to arise the Community's survival would demand equitable solutions.
We are not, therefore, seeking a mathematical limit to our budget contribution in the period after correctives no longer exist, nor do we have in mind a device intended to enable us further to prolong the period of adaptation. We are asking for reasonable means of reassurance that, if we join, we shall be part of a genuine Community where our vital interests will be part of the common interest.
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The two other main questions are dairy products from New Zealand and sugar from the developing Commonwealth countries—
Mr. Joel Barnett: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the subject of reassurance, can he make it clear that the reassurance he seeks is for the post-transitional period as well as the pre-transitional period?
Mr. Rippon: It is something that would apply to the whole period, and to other members of the Community as well as to ourselves.
Our negotiating partners realise, I think, that dairy products from New Zealand and sugar from the developing Commonwealth countries are grave and special issues to which satisfactory solutions must be found on behalf of the entire enlarged Community. In both of these cases we have made proposals for arrangements on a continuing basis, subject to review. I myself went to New Zealand last year to acquaint myself with the facts on the spot. I am likewise about to make quick visits to five of the main sugar producing countries in the Caribbean.
I will now turn to what has been achieved. First, I should like to pay tribute to the co-operative and helpful attitude that the Community has taken, all the more so because of the difficulty which the six Governments naturally have in co-ordinating their national positions in a matter touching so many of their vital interests. So far as we are concerned, a remarkable amount of ground has been covered on many complex issues. I will not weary the House with details of what I think I have already covered fairly fully in statements, but we satisfied ourselves, for example, at an early stage that the arrangements for the supplies of pig meat, eggs and liquid milk were such as would suit the British farmer and consumer.
We also reached agreement on an annual review of agriculture at Community level which will provide for adequate contacts with producers. The House will also remember that the Community has noted with satisfaction our proposals that here should be a five-year transitional period for adaptation in both the industrial and the agricultural fields, but it still remains to work out the actual

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mechanics of transition. Moreover, the principles on admission to the European Investment Bank have been agreed.
On the Commonwealth questions progress has also been made. As hon. Members know, we are seeking, for much of the developing Commonwealth, the option of association agreements of one kind or another. The enlarged Community would have major responsibilities for the developing world, including Commonwealth countries. I think the House will recognise that special provision for access to the enlarged Community would bring great benefit to many Commonwealth countries. Association agreements have a useful part to play here, and as hon. Members will be aware some Commonwealth countries have already made preferential agreements with the Community. Others have made approaches. This will go on whether or not we join.
The Community has also already agreed that such options should be offered to most of the dependent Commonwealth and to nine independent African Commonwealth countries. We have also made good progress in working out satisfactory arrangements for Gibraltar and Hong Kong.
Both the previous Government and the present Government have always maintained that there is no incompatibility between our Commonwealth responsibilities and membership of an enlarged Community, and in this connection I would ask hon. Members to take note of a statement made by the New Zealand Prime Minister, Sir Keith Holyoake on 11th January. Sir Keith then said:
"There have already been regular bilateral and collective exchanges over the last few months to keep Commonwealth Governments informed of progress. The meeting in Singapore will no doubt be given an up-to-date statement by the British Prime Minister of the stage negotiations have now reached. Although British entry into the E.E.C. would inevitably alter the traditional pattern of Commonwealth trade in some degree, we should all be able to agree that our trade links will remain an important part of the association. I would hope also that the meeting will reaffirm political support for what Britain is undertaking. It may seem paradoxical, but I believe that a successful outcome of the Brussels talks would create a balance of advantage for the Commonwealth in the longer term."
All I can say is that I entirely agree with that statement by the New Zealand Prime Minister.
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I am very conscious, as the House would wish me to be, of the need to consult our Commonwealth and E.F.T.A. partners, and take every opportunity to do so. I have already mentioned my visit to New Zealand; and that I plan to visit the Caribbean. Apart from discussions that I have had with Commonwealth Ministers and High Commissioners in London I have also visited Hong Kong and Australia, and look forward to visiting Canada in a few weeks' time.
So far as E.F.T.A. is concerned, I have had valuable talks with Ministerial visitors to London, and I attended a most successful E.F.T.A. Ministerial meeting in November. Earlier this month I had extremely useful talks with the Danish Government in Copenhagen.
We must not forget that three other European nations share with us the aim of Community membership, and our other E.F.T.A. partners want to come to terms with the Community in various ways which they think suitable for their purposes. So success in the enlargement negotiations would heal at long last the economic divisions of Western Europe and that, it may be recalled, was the aim to which we and the other E.F.T.A. founder members consciously look forward when we signed the Treaty of Stockholm. The ultimate success of E.F.T.A. would be its integration in a wider grouping.
Mr. Neil Marten: Can my right hon. Friend comment on the situation which is developing now in Norway where, in a coalition of four parties, three parties are apparently against entry into the Common Market, and if the negotiations are pursued the coalition may well break up, in which case it might withdraw its application. What would then happen?
Mr. Rippon: It would, of course, be most improper for me to comment on what is happening in Norway. What the House must take note of is that Norway has an application which she is pursuing, and I can go no further than to say that the Norwegian Government hope the application will be successful, otherwise they would not have made it.
Success would bring for all of us in the negotiations a domestic market five times that of the British market and three times that of the E.F.T.A. market. The elimination of inter-European tariffs would be a great relief, even though these may be

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less serious than in former times. It would remove a major impediment to the development of trade, and would also remove a psychological barrier to the development of industry across national frontiers.
But the economic advantages go further and deeper than that. Within an enlarged Community we should be in a better position to attract investment, to find suitable industrial partners, to achieve economies of scale and to take advantage of the vast trading opportunities.
Despite some of the mutually contradictory theses that have been advanced, the European Community has given its members substantial economic opportunities, and these have been exploited successfully. It has given them a climate of confidence in which economic activity has thrived. The Six themselves—and our own Confederation of British Industry—have no doubt that much of the remarkable increase in their growth rates and standards of living is due to the creation of the Community. I do not doubt that similar opportunities are available to us as are available to the Six so long as the terms of entry are such as to allow us to exploit them.
There is one feature of Community growth which is particularly significant for us. The Six have expanded trade between themselves more than five times since the Community was established. But they have also maintained a creditable expansion of trade with the rest of the world. Although the Community is one of our largest and fastest growing markets, our exports to the Six have increased at only just over half the rate of their trade between themselves. There is tremendous scope for improvement, particularly if the Community is enlarged to cover virtually the whole of Western Europe in trading terms.
Western Europe now takes nearly half of our total exports, twice as much as goes to the Commonwealth. There has been a remarkable change in the pattern of trade between us over the last ten years. Perhaps one of the most significant features of the post-war world has been the growth of trade between industrial countries.
Mr. Ronald Bell: My right hon. Friend said that Western Europe now takes twice as much
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of our trade as the Commonwealth. Would he confirm that, when he used the phrase "Western Europe" in that context, he was of course aggregating the E.F.T.A. and the Common Market countries?
Mr. Rippon: That is so—less Malta. The figures are 43·7 per cent. for Western Europe, including Eire, and 22 per cent. for the Commonwealth. This compares with the position in 1959 when we sent 32 per cent. of our exports to Western Europe, including Eire, and 35 per cent. to the Commonwealth.
Mr. Edward Milne: In addition to giving the percentage figures, will the right hon. Gentleman also give the figures of trade with the Commonwealth, with E.F.T.A. and with the E.E.C.?
Mr. Rippon: These figures are available and could be provided. What I have tried to indicate by giving a few more figures to the House—it is difficult to give them all—is the way in which the pattern of trade has changed in the last decade.
It is no longer true that we make a living by exchanging industrial against primary products. Our ability to trade with and to help the developing world depends on our having a thriving trade with the developed world. A more dynamic Britain inside the Community would be at least as well placed as she is today for doing business with other developed areas such as America and Japan.
There is no question of our abandoning the Commonwealth or the developing world. At present, we devote a smaller percentage of our total national resources to aid than the members of the present Community. This is a position which has changed dramatically over the last few years. Apart from their substantial bilateral aid programmes, they operate the multilateral European Development Fund. Under this a thousand million dollars are being disbursed over the five years of the present Yaoundé Convention to the 18 African countries associated with the Community under its terms. When Commonwealth countries become associated with the Community, they would also benefit under any future arrangements to which we should of course be contributors.

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In saying all this about the Commonwealth and of the general trading position, I do not overlook the problems at home. I have said that economic opportunities are dependent on fair negotiating terms.
Mr. Bert Oram: Just now, the right hon. Gentleman listed a number of developing countries for which he said that he had reached satisfactory arrangements for association. Can he say whether representatives of those developing countries were associated with the British team in conducting those negotiations and reaching the settlements?
Mr. Rippon: I thought that I had already explained that I have very close and frequent consultations with the countries concerned, through their High Comissioners. I see them both here and in Brussels. They are being offered various options which it will be open to them to accept or reject as they please. Neither we nor the previous Government have denied the prospects of a gradual increase in many, though not all, food prices over the transitional period, though I must emphasise that this will be very gradual, and much more gradual than what has happened over the last 12 months.
I do not deny that this prospect and anxieties on other scores inevitably make our public opinion hesitant. In the circumstances this is entirely natural. In my judgment, it is not so much that people reject the idea of British membership of the Community as such. It is rather that they have legitimate worries about the impact effect of entry. The Government are aware of these fears and will do everything possible, as negotiations develop, to remove misapprehensions and anxieties. On food prices, we have already given undertakings to take whatever measures are necessary to help pensioners and cushion the impact on those least able to bear it.
Mr. John Mendelson: The right hon. Gentleman is saying that he will remove misapprehensions. The people are not worried about misapprehensions. It is agreed between the two Front Benches that there will be very substantial increases in food prices. On the financial contribution, he said that he believes that agriculture will become less important in the Community but that he still
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wants long-term assurances. Why cannot he come clean and tell the people that they are right in thinking that the Government are talking about substantial increases and not merely misapprehensions?
Mr. Rippon: That shows the necessity for a debate of this kind, because the hon. Gentleman is helping to create those misapprehensions and anxieties. It is my purpose to remove them. Sometimes one hears people saying that the price of meat will go up if we join the Community.
Mrs. Renée Short: They are telling the truth.
Mr. Rippon: They do not add that the report says that we shall be eating more beef because, at the end of the day, our standard of living will have risen, as it has in the Community.
If we can achieve through opportunities conferred by membership an additional growth of only ½ per cent. in our G.N.P., that would give us an extra £1,100 million per annum over a period of 5 years. It is only in this way that we can ensure a real increase in the standard of living of all, and that is what should be our purpose at the end of the day.
Mr. Neil McBride: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves food prices, are these additional increases to be added to those which were hinted at by the Minister of Agriculture? Secondly, can he controvert or corroborate the New Zealand assertion that British entry into E.E.C. will mean, on the basis of the present quantity of imported sheep meat and sheep meat products, a further £100 million on the nation's food bill?
Mr. Rippon: I cannot substantiate either of those points further than I have already. I have indicated the position about food prices and the effect of British entry on New Zealand in a number of statements. I know that large numbers of hon. Members wish to speak in this debate. It is probably more helpful if right hon. and hon. Members are given the opportunity to make their speeches. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture will be opening the debate tomorrow and, at the end, I hope to have an opportunity of answering more detailed points.
I have said that the enlargement of the Community would end the economic

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division of Europe. In fact, it would do far more. The Community is potentially much more than a Common Market or customs union, which is its greatest achievement to date. Its potential is limited unless it can develop further, and it cannot speak for Western Europe as a whole unless the enlargement negotiations succeed. These two developments are ultimately inter-dependent.
It is very important that hon. Members and the public realise what is at stake. No one should accuse us of trying to shroud the issues or pretend that they are other than they are. Above all, what must concern us most is the political future of Western Europe.
As the Leader of the Opposition's statement as Prime Minister in May, 1967, summed it up—this is the document which the House approved—
"Together we can ensure that Europe plays in world affairs the part which the Europe of today is not at present playing. For a Europe that fails to put forward its full economic strength will never have the political influence which I believe it could and should exert within the United Nations, within the Western Alliance, and as a means for effecting a lasting detente between East and West; and equally contributing in ever fuller measure to the solution of the world's North-South problems, to the needs of the developing world".
Had the Community existed 40 years ago with Britain as a member, who can doubt that the tragedy of world war would have been averted? Growing together would have prevented the conditions arising which allowed us to tear ourselves apart with such grievious consequences for us all.
Growing together is not an image of which I am ashamed. I know that many right hon. and hon. Members have fears about loss of sovereignty if we join the Community. Indeed, the critics charge us with inconsistency, for accepting the implications of the Community, on the one hand—which we do—and, on the other, refusing to accept that this will lead us, as they say, inevitably and involuntarily into federalism.
Mr. Marten: Hear, hear.
Mr. Rippon: My hon. Friend indicates that that is what worries him. But this betrays a failure to understand what the Community is about—[HON. MEMBERS:
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"Hear, hear."]—or what has been happening to our own country in this generation.
Mr. Marten: In spite of his chorus placed behind him to cheer him on, I should like to ask my right hon. and learned Friend whether it is not he who has got it wrong. It is Europe which will go federal. He is not coming clean with the House, if I may say so.
Mr. Rippon: If my hon. Friend had not interrupted, he would have heard what I was about to say and could then have an opportunity of commenting in his own speech. I am trying to explain to him that I think that he is under a misapprehension about the whole position. Britain has been involved in the business of integrated alliances, of collective economic and monetary management between nations, for more than 20 years. The preservation of British interests has long depended on sharing control with others, and that is already, in practical terms, an irreversible trend.
The founders of the Economic Community faced up to this reality. They decided that their purpose would be best served if the member countries could steadily grow together by sharing certain specific interests in the common enterprise. They did not lose national control over this process, and they do not intend to. The vital decisions remain with the Council of Ministers. But within the fields and limits laid down by national Governments, the life of the Community has developed. So talk of dramatic options between national sovereignty and federalism is simply not relevant.
As President Pompidou said at Strasbourg on 28th June last year:
"Of what Europe can it then be a question, if not of a Europe grouping together sovereign States that freely agree to lower the barriers which separate them and gradually harmonise their policies, agricultural, monetary, industrial and social, in order to advance with realism, that is, cautiously and step by step, towards a union which, when it has sufficiently become so, both in fact and in the minds of the peoples—and only then—will be able to have its own policy, its own independence, it own rôle in the world."
Everyone acknowledges that Europe must be built upon respect for the individuality of the States which form part of it.
Thus, the Community is now being to work gradually towards an economic and monetary union. They have not yet

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agreed on the first stage, let alone the second and the third. We on this side of the House share the views expressed by successive Governments and successive Chancellors of the Exchequer that there is no need for us to have anxiety about this matter. Indeed, joining would give us the opportunity to participate, like the others, in their decisions.
Our belief is that further developments in this and other fields are highly desirable. Nothing would be done against the wishes or vital interests of each member State. We should be joining the Community not just as shareholders but as directors. We could have a major influence at every stage on both control and direction, and inevitably—I think that we must note this—we should have far more control inside than if we remained outside.
Mr. Dick Douglas: The right hon. and learned Gentleman has not so far mentioned the important aspect of control relating to regional policy. It is vital that we have an assurance, before he concludes, about the advisability and possibility of operating the type of regional policy which we have operated in this country virtually since 1945.
Mr. Rippon: Further developments in regional policy as a result of joining the Community are one of the purposes, and I spoke about that in relation to the budget. Whatever happens in Community Europe in any case will profoundly affect our interests and our future. I have said that the development and enlargement of the Communities are closely interdependent. If we join, there will be a number of fields in which, I hope, our influence will have a significant effect.
I refer, first, to the democratic content of the Community. The previous Government were right to take advantage of the State visit of President Saragat of Italy in 1969 to sign the joint declaration that Community Europe should be firmly based on democratic institutions. The Council of Ministers contains the democratically elected representatives of democratic countries, but in those spheres in which the Community has a legitimate interest, then, I think, the European Parliament also has a vital rôle to play. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has said:
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"I frankly cannot imagine the Community developing beyond a certain point without a corresponding advance in democratic functions."
Another development on which enlargement would have a decisive effect is the harmonisation of foreign policy. This work is essential if European nations are to have an effective say in any of the great world issues. The start we have made here with the Six in Western European Union has been most useful. The Foreign Ministers of the Six and the Ten, working in the spirit of The Hague communiqué, have also made a good beginning. My right honourable Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary left his colleagues of the Ten in no doubt at their meeting in December that our contribution would be a vital one. But, unless our underlying economic interests are consolidated in an enlarged Community, it is difficult to see how steady and substantial progress could be achieved in this wider field.
Yet another area of European action in which progress is attendant on enlargement is defence. Of course, we and the Six are already committed to each other in Western European Union. Of course, we are all members of the North Atlantic Treaty Alliance which must remain the basis of our security. But we must remember that the military potential of the Warsaw Pact Powers—despite détente—is even more formidable than it was 10 years ago. We must remember also that political pressures and trends in the United States seem certain to require that Europe should be more self-reliant and should accept greater responsibilities in defence.
Failure on the part of Western Europe to understand these two developments, and prepare for them in time, could be very serious. We must realise in the House and the country that our defence and our survival will depend increasingly on our realisation of how much we depend on each other in Western Europe and on our readiness to stand on our own feet.
In defence as in foreign policy, the determined effort and new methods of working together which the situation requires cannot easily be undertaken, if they can be undertaken at all, until our essential interests are combined in the Community.

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These are great and serious matters, greater, certainly, than the matters which we are tackling directly in negotiations. But the greater is dependent on the lesser. As President Pompidou rightly said earlier this month:
"For the negotiations to succeed, there must be a reconciliation between the interests of the Community and national interests."
The word "reconciliation" is a good one. The negotiations are a collective endeavour, not a game of poker or beggar-my-neighbour. The critical period lies ahead. We are approaching the moment for which the previous Government and the present Government have worked hard. Nevertheless, I agree fully with the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition that there can be no question of joining the Community in any rush through economic weakness.
For us, as for our negotiating partners, it is a moment for steeling our will, for-re-affirming our determination to achieve terms fair for all, terms which, in due course, we can justifiably bring before this House for its approval.
4.40 p.m.
Mr. Harold Lever: I do not know whether some hon. Gentlemen opposite resented the support which the Minister got from those seated behind him and whether it would be right to suggest that that support was organised. I gather from the interventions that have been made so far in the debate that no such organised support will be behind me to fortify me in my argument.
That we are having this debate today derives from a decision of the Labour Government. I mention this at the outset not to intimidate, by some supposed authority, any of my hon. Friends from their viewpoints but to try to bring to mind the notion that entry into the Community, if the right terms could be obtained, was considered to be in our fundamental interest. This notion was not arrived at hastily by some impetuous group of reactionaries but only after deep, minute consideration by that Labour Government.
I appreciate, of course, that that may not carry much weight with, for example, the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten). Nor is it intended, as I have
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said, to seek to deflect any of my hon. Friends, by some rather worthless debating point, from giving their views should they be against our entry on any terms which are likely to be negotiated.
I say at once that I do not resent it at all that on this very large issue, with its complications and anxieties, there should be some hon. Members on both sides of the House—though I am more particularly concerned with my hon. Friends—who feel that they should oppose the original notion that we should go into Europe if the right terms can be obtained and who oppose entry on virtually, if one is candid about this, any terms.
I do not reproach them for that. On the contrary, I would think that it would be not in accordance with their dignity and duty to this House if for any reason—holding the view that they are opposed to a major policy decision of this kind—they withheld that view or disguised it from their colleagues. There would be something very seriously lacking if they felt that some sort of personal embarrassment or possibly verbal argument should restrain them on a matter of such fundamental importance.
I hope, equally, that those who are opposed to our entry on virtually any terms will realise that it is wholly inconsistent with the dignity and duty of any of my hon. Friends who hold an opposing view to mince their words in bringing the reasons for that view to the notice of the House.
I support the decision of the Labour Government and, accordingly, my position is that I will welcome the success of the negotiations if they provide terms on which entry would be justified in the interests of the country.
I say at once that that formula is sometimes perhaps demeaned or debased by being indicative of some lack of enthusiasm for the success of the negotiations, or it is held to be a neutral position. I will make my own position unmistakably clear. When I say that if the right terms could be achieved I would advise us to go in, I mean exactly that. I do not mean it to indicate any desire to quibble or any desire to create a formula for justifying a reversal of the decision to go in.
Why are the terms important? They are important not only because of the

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effect on our economy—the "impact effect", as the jargon has it—but because if this country were to go into the Common Market on terms which harshly constrained the economic prospects for us for a period of years, it would be little consolation to those who, during that period, had to endure the consequences if, in the eyes of some historian next century, the enduring and overall benefits far outweighed the costs in that period.
It would be damaging to the relationship between this country and our future partners if we did not get the terms right. We do no want there to be wrangling and grievous injury to the people of Britain, not only in our selfish interests but because we are aiming at the successful and smooth running of the partnership.
I know that, to a certain extent, we should leave matters to be reviewed, and certainly to some extent we shall have to do that. On the other hand, I do not think we should unnecessarily do so on major points. Paupers make bad partners and I do not want Britain to be put in the position of having, because of some neglect in the course of the negotiations now, to ask for easements later, since that would not result in a position which would tend to produce that ongoing relationship which we should have if we go in. Another reason why the terms are important is because Commonwealth interests must be safeguarded by those terms.
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his poetic intervention. In reminding us that
"… high Heaven rejects the lore
Of nicely-calculated less or more"
he was identifying another respect in which paradise differs from the House of Commons. There are others too numerous to mention.
Here in this House we cannot allow that formula to justify any slackness in the organisation of healthy terms which will permit a healthy on-going relationship when we get in. [HON. MEMBERS: "If."] If and when. I have made the position clear. I would not go in if we could not get the right terms, but I would go in if we could get the right terms. Thus, when I say "when" I mean "if" and when I say "if" I mean "when". Hon. Members may assume that the use of both words together really means their use separately.
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I have been careful not to assume a responsibility which is not proper for an Opposition spokesman. The right hon. Gentleman is negotiating and not I. I take no responsibility for any offers that he makes or terms he suggests. I neither approve nor disapprove them. Still less would I like to put myself in the position of a half-informed back-seat negotiator, prodding him at one point and jogging him at another. However, I am prepared to remind him of particular areas where his attention is required. But I do not think that I would serve any useful purpose if I simply engaged in a series of abstract questions without being able to commit myself to any opinion.
When the right hon. Gentleman comes with a packet agreement, if he is able to get one, that is the time when I will be obliged to judge, and judge the packet as a whole. That is the time when the Opposition will judge whether the packet as a whole is in the interests of the nation. In the meantime, I cannot take any sort of responsibility for details. Like hon. Members, I will be helped if the right hon. Gentleman will continue to identify the areas where the issues remain to be negotiated and of the progress that is made in the negotiations.
Sometimes there has been a kind of carelessness of language. I was going to refer to the occasion when the right hon. Gentleman said "when we enter", but I would be ill-advised to do that. There have been occasions when the right hon. Gentleman and some of his hon. Friends have, in one way or another, given the impression that the Government are prepared to go into Europe on any terms at all, without being too particular about them.
I do not think it fair to say that the right hon. and learned Gentleman in anything he has said has given that impression. But I make it clear that the enthusiasts on this side—not the opponents—for the success of the negotiations on the right terms could not possibly judge other than harshly any such action were the Government to display it in the negotiations or in the evidence of the package deal which they brought back. To take such an attitude is to invite not the most constructive spirit of our friends in Europe but the worst sort of spirit. If they believed that we ourselves were indifferent to the terms of entry, one

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could hardly expect to inspire in them the same desire to meet our needs.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: The right hon. Gentleman is keeping open a line of retreat.
Mr. Lever: The hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) seems to imagine that I need a line of retreat to his position. I am not sure why he thinks that there are any attractions for me at any rate in joining him in his position.
I am making it clear—and the right hon. and learned Gentleman has taken the point—that none of this is to detract in any way from the general proposition I have laid down or to question the sincerity of the position which the leaders of my party have taken up—that of wanting the negotiations to succeed. I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will go on seeing that the public is fully informed and will make all the relevant calculations that he can in the course of negotiations, without breach of confidentiality, to see that discussion in the country is open and honest. Much as I myself want to go into Europe, it is of the greatest importance on such an issue that there should not be sleight of hand, that there should not be any kind of action that detracts from the right and necessary open public debate on all the great issues involved.
Mr. Norman St. John-Stevas: Referring to the point the right hon. Gentleman raised about enthusiasm, is there not a fair difference of position between those who are enthusiastic for the negotiations to succeed on reasonable terms and those who want to go in at any price? They are different positions and should not be confused.
Mr. Lever: That is correct and I hope that my opening remarks have made my own position clear.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: Modified rapture.
Mr. Lever: I think that the hon. Gentleman made a perfectly sound point and spoilt it with a rather lightweight comment.
I want to explain briefly why I advocate our entry into the Common Market. First, I see it in broadly the historical setting which the right hon. and learned
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Gentleman hinted at. I believe that the 20th century threw out a challenge to the world either to organise itself in the recognition that no one State could enjoy safety and welfare without co-operative inter-dependence with other States, and that the two great world wars and the poverty and hideous political events which preceded the Second World War were due to a failure by the world to respond to the needs of that challenge—that of setting aside national egotisms sufficiently to ensure not only the common safety but the common well being.
Mr. Sydney Bidwell: Does my right hon. Friend accept that the more this matter is discussed the more the British people will become informed, and that there is a growing climate of opposition to Britain's entry as the facts grow? Would not he agree that it seems that the economic argument is wide open but that the reason why so many people range from hesitancy to implacable opposition is the considerable degree of derogation of national sovereignty which would be involved to an extent we have never entered into before?
Mr. Lever: My hon. Friend must not confuse the difference between argument and opinion. I am not going to be overborne by opinion polls. I am ready to be moved by solid argument. I will deal with the particular point he has raised. So far, I have not been persuaded that it is right to separate into artificial compartments the economics and the politics of it. This does not make sense in the modern world. If the polities of co-operation are awry, one cannot have economic co-operation. If one's economics is a failure, all the political goodwill disappears—and we have seen the hideous hand of Nazism and war wreaking havoc amongst the peoples of Europe. I cannot make that separation.
I believe that this century has said to the peoples of the world, "So far you could survive on the rate race principle of national egotism which was adequate in previous centuries. With the development of technology and science, you are mutilating yourselves and damaging your standard of life and welfare if you do not learn to mitigate the national egotisms which were treated as habitual and as matters of pride in those previous centuries." We failed to learn that lesson in time to avert the First and Second

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World Wars. Now the lesson not merely is that we are threatened with danger and loss and ruin. If we do not heed it in time in this period of history, we are warned that our total extermination may be the result of our failure to set aside traditional national egotisms which are so much to the fore in the kind of argument unfortunately so much put forward.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Lever: I must pursue my argument.
After the Second World War, the world moved into a period of an unprecedented economic prosperity, and did so because it had started to learn the lessons of interdependence more rapidly than in previous periods of history. For this reason we have had our remarkable on-going prosperity. What troubles and surprises me, but seems to trouble so few people, is that most people seem to think that the structure set up after the Second World War to achieve the benefits of economic and political interdependence can be permanent. I am surprised that it has not been earlier realised that the structure is already obsolete or at least obsolescent. The whole structure—economic, financial and political—urgently needs to be reconsidered and revised.
The idea that we can coast along for another 25 years using the I.M.F. and the other political and economic structures, such as the G.A.T.T., which were brought into being in 1945 to cover the post-war period, and that they can continue to serve us without serious and fairly rapid amendment, is a grave mistake.
If the world is to avert the dangers of pre-war recurring once again in economic and consequently in political terms, it will have to advance its structures. It will have to make stronger and more widespread the institutions which make the workings of interdependence effective if we are not to run the risk of serious recurrence of the grave problems which afflicted us before the Second World War. This point is fundamental to my argument. That is why, when people talk to me of changes and mitigations in the areas of sovereignty, and so on, I feel that it must have escaped them that, in the last 25 years, vast changes have occurred in the relative power of different groups in the world.
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The whole structure of the post-war world's prosperity and interdependence was organised on the assumption that Europe was flat on its back, as it was, and that the United States and, to a lesser extent, Britain, could, by economic and defence efforts, provide the structure of co-operation for the world's onward progress. That served for a time but the basis on which it was done and the assumption on which it was based have been long falsified by events.
Power, wealth and monetary power have moved to Europe to a most extraordinary extent, and we are dependent upon institutions which did not arrange that Europe should be playing its full part, either in the world's political affairs or in the world's economic and monetary affairs. We may not agree with the Common Market, and may think that it is the wrong structure, but there is no doubt that, unless we find the structures which will reflect these changes in relationships and bring Europe the monetary and economic power to fulfil its proper rôle in the world, we shall be in grave danger of a break down in the arrangements which hitherto have served us tolerably well.
Mr. Iremonger rose—
Mr. Lever: I do not want to give way. [Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman is not interested, it hardly encourages me to believe that in an extempore reply I will encourage his interest any further.
Mr. Iremonger: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Lever: I wish to finish this part of my argument. It is a theme that I want to put over. It is the theme that now we are bent upon the task of bringing Europe to play its full part, which does not mean attempting to throw its weight about. It means getting Europe to exercise its powers and take its responsibilities in the world that has come into being as a result of the original essays and efforts and interdependence of the United States and, to a lesser extent, Britain in the immediate post-war world. I believe that there are certain grave problems which need to be solved and can only be solved if Europe does so.
I believe that a Europe which excludes Britain cannot be the Europe which will be likely to play that full part, and play it effectively. I want to point to two areas

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of real danger, one in monetary affairs and the other in trade, which require bringing into being a united Europe able co-operatively to play its rôle in the world of preserving the world's on-going prosperity.
Dealing with monetary aspects means dealing with the sterling area, about which I shall say something later. The other means playing a rôle in adjusting the world's trade policy so as to reverse the darkening dangers and trends towards protectionism in the world which started to come into being. If Europe does not play a proper part in these two efforts, I am convinced that both the monetary system and the world's open trading system will move into a very different position from that which we have seen before or which we see today. I also believe that a united Europe has great power and responsibility in relation to overseas aid and should be organised to play a leading part in that, not only because of its history but because of its present financial and economic power.
I shall not cover the sterling question in detail because I understand that my right hon. Friend will speak on that tomorrow. The question of the rôle of sterling is not part of the negotiations but it is what I would call "factor X" in them. In other words, whatever the negotiations are, we will not succeed in entering Europe unless we take up a position in relation to the reserve rôle of sterling at any rate which is consistent, in the view of our future partners, with a sense of European outlook and responsibility. I do not want to go into details now but I believe that this necessarily involves a clear declaration by the Government of their intention to bring to an end the reserve rôle of sterling. But I hasten to say that this does not mean bringing it to an end by some unilateral act on our part, still less by any default in our obligations to the sterling reserve holders. It must be brought to an end by being replaced by an international reserve asset which must be created.
I want to hear from the right hon. Gentleman—he did not mention it in his speech, but it is crucial for these negotiations—his intentions about dealing with the reserve rôle of sterling. Does he agree that these negotiations cannot succeed unless we satisfy our future partners
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on this matter? Whether or not we enter the Common Market, I wish to see the reserve rôle of sterling replaced by another international asset. Because of these negotiations this has become a matter of great urgency.
It is important that the right hon. Gentleman should tell us not only his views about ending this rôle, but how it is to be ended. It is crucial that it should be ended in the right way and not deprive the world of liquidity or of a reserve asset by repayment or long-term funding or anything of that sort. It is vital that the long-term rôle of sterling must be replaced by something of an alternative character. It is important that the right hon. Gentleman should discuss with the Europeans, not merely his intentions in a blanket way, but the way in which they think it should be done.
The logic of the European position which wants to see this rôle ended must, in my view, be to take responsibility—not directly in taking over the rôle, but by playing a full part in the international responsibility which will be called for to organise the replacement of sterling reserve by some other international asset. It is important that this should be discussed now before we go into the Market and that we should make clear to our future partners what we intend. We should hear from them, not merely what they would wish us to do, but the way in which it has to be done and the part which they themselves are prepared to play internationally in assisting this valuable operation, which is advantageous to ourselves.
Mr. Iremonger: Is not the real trouble between the right hon. Gentleman and some of his hon. Friends that what he is expounding is the free world's answer to international Socialism?
Mr. Lever: We waited a long time for what most people would think of as something of not very striking value from the hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger).
I wish now to say a word about trading policy and the danger of protectionism. If Europe does not play a part in helping to bring up to date the open trade policy of the world, there is a serious danger of a reversion to protectionism. The truth is that freedom of trade, like freedom of speech, can be exercised without limit only if it is exercised with responsibility.

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No country will stand by and watch a great industry being destroyed by a flood of imports from another country without any accommodation via restrictions or the like.
We are witnessing in the United States a reaction to its own posture of freedom of trade, a freedom which is not always fully reciprocated elsewhere, without seeing any movement from Europe so as to encourage the Americans to retain their support for, and interest in, the open trading policy, which hitherto they have supported and which has been of such vast benefit to the world. If Europe is to react to any of the United States' actions in a destructive or negative way, it is quite clear that, instead of a continuation of the liberalisation of world trade and world prosperity that has gone with it, we are liable to move into an era of protectionist tit-for-tat, not only in Asia, but in Europe and in America itself.
This is another reason that I want to see a united Europe playing a much fuller part in organising the trade policy of the world in accordance with present-day requirements. We cannot just sit back happily and believe that the existing arrangements will take care of the situation.
I should like to deal with the problem which poses real anxieties for many hon. Members in this House, particularly, it would appear, for hon. Members my own side of the House. We are told that there is a danger that this sort of Europe might be an autarchy, which is inward-looking and a rich men's club.
Mr. Stanley Orme: Which it is!
Mr. Lever: I can only say this to those who hold the view that it is a rich men's club. If they believe that Europe is bent on a course that would be involved if that statement were true, it is a poor look-out for Britain. Our own future, our safety and our welfare are dependent on the kind of Europe which exists in the years ahead. If they are worried about it, I wonder why they are so anxious to stand by and let this danger rear its head. It would be crucially damaging to us if Europe were to plunge into this kind of attitude of autarchy and inwardness, neglecting the responsibilities which I think we have for the rest of the world. I do not go along with the idea that, if that danger exists,
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the remedy is to shut ourselves away, turn up our overcoat collars and hope to get along on our own.
An Hon. Member: Why do we not join the Soviet Union?
Mr. Lever: The Soviet Union has not invited us so far to a federal and democratic merger with them. The House must not misunderstand me. I regard interdependence and its cost as being based on a view of the interdependence of all human beings on earth. It includes the people of the Soviet Union and of China. I am not responsible for the views that they hold—[Interruption.]—And I am glad to say that I am not responsible for every view that is held among my hon. Friends. I am thinking of the interdependence of all human beings on this planet in this day and age, including the people in the Soviet Union and elsewhere who live under systems which are not my systems and which are not attractive to me. I do not want to see the annihilation of the world, nor do I want to see poverty among any of the peoples of the world. I feel my interdependence with them.
I may be wrong in the way in which I seek to achieve the protection of the world from self-annihilation, and I see this more as a way of achieving greater accommodation with the dangerous areas of the Soviet Union, the Far East and the like. I may be wrong, but my purposes are clear. [Interruption.] I may be wrong in feeling that this is the way to advance the general prosperity of the world, but this is my intention.
Mr. Eric S. Heffer rose—
Mr. Speaker: The House would do well to let the right hon. Gentleman make his own speech, which is very interesting, and I am sure that he can do so without the help of the House.
Mr. Lever: I do not want it to be thought that I submit to the doctrines of guilt by association, but there are those opposite who cannot be counted or who have dissembled any ardent enthusiasm for the Common Market. I am talking of the safety and prosperity of the whole world rather than of a part of the world. Just as in the United Nations we strengthen collective security by appropriate regional pacts where there is a natural

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interdependence, so economically Europe is a natural area for the furtherance of that interdependence.
What also has troubled my right hon. and hon. Friends has been the cost of this operation. It is interesting to see who are the people in Europe who most ardently want us in. One discovers that every Socialist democratic trade union and party in Europe is passionately eager for us to go in. We must recognise that parliamentary democracy is not just keeping to one's own way. The whole point is that one tries to persuade people to come on to one's own side.
I quite understand that the right hon. Gentleman, in entering Europe, will not have before him the aim of achieving the ideals and purposes of the Labour Party in Europe. He is perfectly entitled to think that it will be a more Conservative Europe than I should like to see. I see a Europe of social advance and the forwarding of social justice. I see a Europe which shares the ideals of the Social Democratic parties and trade unions of Europe. The question of which of us shall win will be a matter for history which will be decided if and when we go into Europe.
I have a good deal more self-confidence about this matter than have some of my hon. Friends. I believe that the peoples of Europe will move forward, not backward. The British people would never think of going backward, apart from the events at the last General Election which were a temporary aberration. [Interruption.] Some of my hon. Friends seem to believe that in Europe the working people, the trade unions and the progressive people, will go backward into a dark age of autarchy—a Europe which is inward-looking and indifferent to international responsibilities; whereas per contra internationally-minded members of the Labour Party will ensure that, wherever else the torch of freedom and progress may be dim, here in England we shall be able somehow to keep it burning.
I want to deal with the serious point about loss of sovereignty, and I shall try to be brief. I understand the reluctance to lay down one's sovereignty, but hon. Members must realise that they either believe in international co-operation or they do not. If they believe in it, every act of international co-operation is a pooling of sovereignty. The I.M.F., the
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G.A.T.T. treaties, and the Common Market itself, are all acts of international collaboration. They are vital to the peace and prosperity of the world and must involve some surrender or, as I would prefer to call it, pooling of sovereignty.
Where are we asked to surrender sovereignty? I am not dealing with fanciful ideas of turning Westminster into a parish council.
Mr. Norman Pentland: Is it not a fact that at the moment this country has at its disposal the constitutional means of withdrawing from these organisations at any time it desires, whereas, once we sign the Treaty of Rome and fully commit ourselves to its articles we will have no constitutional means at our disposal to pull out?
Mr. Lever: If my hon. Friend is dealing with the narrow constitutional point, it is a fundamental proposition of our constitution that no House of Commons can find its successors. But I was not dealing with that aspect. I was talking about the loss of sovereignty which it is the whole purpose of this exercise to organise—that is to say, harmonisation of economic policies and agreement on various matters of a financial and economic kind.
If this loss of sovereignty by harmonising economic policy is objected to, I am bound to ask those who are troubled by it—I understand their anxieties—what they do want? Do they want the disharmony of the economic policies of Europe? It is not the danger of an excessive, effective harmonisation of policy in Europe which threatens our prosperity; it is the lack of ability to co-ordinate, to co-operate, and to harmonise.
Some of my most thoughtful and sincere hon. Friends are genuinely troubled about sovereignty. However, I ask them to reflect, in historic terms: has the world been damaged by an excessive propensity to mitigate its national egoisms, to hand over its sovereignty, in a co-operative and collective endeavour based on the concept that it is the welfare of all which we are seeking, not a rat race in which we seek individually to achieve our political economic purposes? I ask those who are troubled by it to reflect on the last half century and to ask themselves whether it is this excessive willingness to

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co-operate economically, to subordinate national egoisms to a collective, on-going well-being, which has done damage.
Mr. Christopher Mayhew: Will my right hon. Friend give to some of those behind him some guidance on the relationship between the maintenance of sovereignty, on the one hand, and the achieving of the brotherhood of man, on the other?
Mr. Lever: I am flattered that my hon. Friend should believe that I am capable of trespassing into this area of spiritual guidance. Unhappily, there has never been any convincing evidence of my ability to discharge the rôle which my hon. Friend so flatteringly thinks might be mine. Nevertheless, I do not despise the point made by my hon. Friend, because behind it there is real truth.
I do not want to go on too long on this subject. The whole point about the argument on sovereignty is to find the right means of mitigating national egoisms in which we see our prosperity and safety not in pursuing selfishly our own ends indifferent to the consequences of others. In the modern world, there is no success available by that particular method of egoism. The only success available is to take into account the human, the economic, and the political needs of everybody else in seeking to get one's own direction. I am not, therefore, prepared to worry too much about the loss of sovereignty, since that is inevitable in any co-operative international undertaking—
Mr. J. T. Price: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Lever: I should like to give way, but I feel—
Mr. Price rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. It is clear that the right hon. Gentleman is not giving way. In the circumstances, I think that he should be allowed to conclude his speech.
Mr. Price: With respect, I got the impression that my right hon. Friend was giving way.
Mr. Speaker: No.
Mr. Lever: Very well. I will give way.
Mr. Price: My right hon. Friend is in a buoyant mood today and we are enjoying his performance. When talking about loss of sovereignty, my right hon. Friend gave the impression that it was of minor account. Does not my right hon. Friend realise that the power of decision on major matters affecting our economic welfare can be made less efficiently in Brussels than in London? This House is already under heavy attack for too much power being devolved here. We are talking about devolving and decentralising the functions of Government. My right hon. Friend talks about decisions being made in Brussels rather than in London. That is a serious matter for everyone to ponder upon.
Mr. Lever: My hon. Friend ought to reflect on the areas in which we shall pool our sovereignty. It will be in areas of economics where we have sovereignty to the full acting alone, but which is merely nominal sovereignty, not very real, for example, in some aspects of money, trade, tariffs and the like. How free does my hon. Friend think that we are to control our destiny alone in these matters, except nominally?
Mr. J. T. Price: In taxation.
Mr. Lever: In taxation there will be immense freedom. It is in certain areas only where we have to harmonise that. Those are areas relevant to trading between the members of the Community. There would be nothing to stop us raising surtax to 19s. 11d. in the pound. All the political fiscal enjoyments which we now have will be available to us after entry into the Common Market, provided that we can persuade the British electorate to elect us once again, which I fervently hope that it will. We should beware of clinging to a nominal sovereignty—that is, control over our own destiny—at the cost of losing a real and effective control over our destiny which we might have co-operatively if we pooled it. We would then move from the area of the nominal and apparently grandiose freedom to act indifferently to world affairs and what was happening in other countries to the real area of controlling our destiny by co-operation with others to make it effective.
People have been worried about the Werner Plan. I will not go into the

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details of the Werner Plan, because my right hon. Friend will deal with that tomorrow. However, I must try to call a halt to the parading of bogymen before the people of this country. Even if it were true—which it is not—that Britain could conceivably assent to a premature rendering rigid of all the parities of the different countries in Europe without appropriate regional policies and other mechanisms to deal with these matters, we should pause to think when we read some of the scare articles about Werner and the control of our money and parity.
Every Englishman knows that the control of his parity is one of the fundamental freedoms which, under no circumstances, must be taken from him. I hope that no words of mine will deride or belittle the affection and passion with which the average English man and woman cherishes that right.
It is useful to know that nearly 30 years ago the United States voluntarily, and in the interests of world co-operation, abandoned control of their parity—that is, the rate at which they exchanged with the currency of the rest of the world—and left it at the discretion of every country in the world. The United States agreed—it was necessary so to agree at that time—to set up a world monetary system which would carry us through the dark days after the war and thereafter and enable the world to flourish. One pre-condition was that the United States should surrender control over their own parity to each European and non-European country. The United States have done so, and they remain in that situation to this day. It is not a very agreeable situation, because the United States have not at every point had grounds for encouragement that the sovereignty which they ceded to a world pool, as it were—to individual nations—has been adequately taken into account in the decisions of those countries.
It seems odd that we are expected to be scared at the paper proposals, which are obviously in their infancy, for some stabilising of parities at some distant date with suitable precautions which people have recommended.
I do not want to go on longer. I have made my position clear. I understand that one newspaper suggests that I have modified my position and enthusiasm. I
1112
have not. I have not derided people's objections or anxieties. I am not questioning their sincerity in reaching a different position. Necessarily even in this overlong speech, I cannot cover every detail of their anxiety because there is much here which gives cause for worry. It is true that there are these dangers of a Europe which could develop wrongly, with or without us, but the danger is much greater without us, than with us in Europe. I do not say that patronisingly. I do not say that our rôle is to go into Europe and tell everybody how to behave. Our rôle is to make a contribution worthy of our traditions and experience, precisely to prevent that from happening.
Although I have made lighthearted remarks to make less tedious this lengthy speech, I do not pretend that one can brush aside the anxieties which have troubled so many people. I believe that in this situation there are opportunities and dangers, but my view is that if we stay out of Europe the dangers will be greater, and the opportunities will be less. If we go in, we shall be setting our feet on a path of constructive prosperity, based upon the unifying of the peoples of Europe, not on the basis of entire self-interest though there must of course be some of that. We must go in on the basis of Europe's concept that its power, its achievements and its history demand that it should play an ever more noble and constructive rôle in the world—both in the under-developed world and in the rest of it.
It is for that reason that I have no doubt whatever that if terms can be negotiated to make it reasonable then, in the economic and political interests of the people of this country, of Europe and of the world, we should take this great step in the unifying of the Continent.
Mr. Russell Kerr: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is a matter of common knowledge that all eight nominated Front Bench spokesmen in this two-day debate are committed, in greater or lesser degree, to Britain's entry into Europe; in other words, they are marketeers. I ask you to take into account the fact that on this side of the House about three-quarters of the back benchers take a contrary view.
Hon. Members: No.
Mr. Speaker: I assure the hon. Gentleman that that is a matter which I shall carefully take into account. I hope to get a properly balanced debate.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Mr. Sandys.
Mr. Sandys rose—
Mr. John Mendelson: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: There can be no point of order. I shall try to keep a balance in the debate.
Mr. John Mendelson: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As you know, perhaps better than anybody else, it is customary in all debates for successive speakers to express differing points of view. We are now to hear number three of those who express the same view. This is not a balanced debate.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member must rely upon me. Raising this point of order is taking up time. I shall try to get in all the hon. Members who want to speak, and there are many who I have no doubt, share the hon. Member's view. I want to try to call as many hon. Members as I can. The more time that we spend on points of order, the less chance they will have of being called. Mr. Sandys.
5.33 p.m.
Mr. Sandys: Perhaps the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson) will allow me to make my speech before he comments upon it, though I doubt whether he will get many surprises.
The right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) said that he hoped the negotiations would succeed and would secure fair and acceptable terms which would enable Britain to join the European Economic Community. I believe that that hope is shared by the great majority of hon. Members in all parts of the House.
Mr. Marten: My right hon. Friend has got that wrong.
Mr. Sandys: My hon. Friend says that I have got that wrong. I think that, when the time comes to count heads, he will find that it is he who is wrong.
This debate gives us a welcome opportunity to review the state of the negotiations and to discuss the wider issues
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which they raise. My right hon. and learned Friend has given us an encouraging progress report. He is to be congratulated on his handling of a difficult and delicate assignment, and also on the excellent relations which he has established with his opposite numbers on the Continent. My right hon. and learned Friend has also done much to reassure our Commonwealth partners that their interests are not going to be ignored.
In the last few months, some crucial questions have been tackled frankly, and a good deal of headway has been made. But, as the right hon. Member for Cheetham emphasised, it is still too early to attempt an assessment of the final outcome. In a negotiation like this neither side can expect to get all that it asks for. There must be a good deal of give and take, and it is only when we see the whole package that we can decide whether the terms are fair and reasonable. Personally, I am confident that mutually acceptable arrangements can be negotiated, and will be. The reason for my optimism is that it is quite clear that all the Six, without exception, are now convinced that it is in everyone's interests that Britain should come in. I cannot therefore believe that they will insist on imposing conditions which would oblige us to stay out.
One of our principal objectives in the current negotiations must be to ensure that the transfers which we have to make across the exchanges to the Community do not endanger our balance of payments. What matters, of course, is the size of our net contribution; that is to say, the amount that we pay to the Community, less the amount we receive from it. It may not be possible—and I think we must face this—to secure radical changes in the financial arrangements which the Six have so painfully negotiated with one another. On the other hand, it may not be quite so difficult to persuade them to agree to a more equitable distribution of the benefits which flow from the Community's expenditure.
At present the Community's financial assistance is concentrated almost entirely on aid to agriculture, of which Britain, with her highly advanced farming industry, is likely to receive very little. It would, I believe, make all the difference to us if this aid could be spread over

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a wider field. We might, for example, suggest that a larger part of the Community's income should be used to provide financial support for purposes such as regional development and social programmes, from which Britain would benefit equally with the other member countries. This would reduce the net amount payable by us across the exchanges, and would thus relieve some of the strain on our balance of payments.
It is, of course, impossible to calculate with precision how any formula which may be agreed will actually work out in practice. We should therefore seek some general assurance that, if the bill which Britain is called upon to pay turns out to be unexpectedly and intolerably large, our partners in the Community will examine the position with us and consider what should be done to restore a fair balance. I gather from my right hon. and learned Friend's speech that he himself is thinking on those lines.
One argument which is being advanced against joining the Common Market is that the decision would be irreversible. Like the mariage vows, the Treaty of Rome contains no provision for divorce. But, as the pages of history show, treaties are not immutable. In recent years Britain has allowed other countries to withdraw from treaties which they found irksome. On one occasion I gave consent to this myself. Those who join the E.E.C. do so in good faith, with a sincere intention of making the union permanent. But the successful working of the Community depends entirely upon the active support and positive co-operation of its members. If therefore, for some reason which it is difficult to visualise, one of their number were to find continued membership intolerable, I have no doubt whatsoever that the other members would decide to release their unwilling partner. However, I do not see that situation arising.
Those who warn us of the irrevocable nature of the decision to go into the Common Market should recognise that a decision to stay out would be equally irrevocable. If, after applying three times for membership we were now to break off negotiations on the grounds that, on rereading the Treaty, we had belatedly discovered that it contained no provision for resignation, the Six would never again
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take us seriously, and they would be most unlikely to agree to reopen negotiations, should we subsequently change our minds. If, after asking a girl to marry him, a man abruptly withdraws his proposal, it is unlikely that she will give him another chance.
It is not surprising that, on a matter of such importance, there should be doubts and fears and some reluctance to make a decision. But this is not an issue on which one can play for time or sit on the fence. There is no safe middle course. When the negotiations are complete and the terms are known, we shall have to make up our minds one way or the other. Either we go in and accept the obligations as well as the benefits, or we stay out and deny ourselves all the opportunities and influence which membership of this powerful association offers to us. That is the choice we shall have to make, and we shall have to make it during the course of the present year.
Like the right hon. Member for Cheetham I too would like to say a word about sovereignty. Some who oppose Britain's entry into the European Economic Community do so not on economic but on political grounds. They say that economic union would lead to political union, and that this would entail the loss of our sovereign independence. Those who talk like that seem to think that sovereignty and independence are one and the same thing. But sovereignty does not by itself confer independence. We may enjoy the legal status of a sovereign Power, but we have precious little independence. Except in marginal spheres, Britain is no longer big enough, strong enough or rich enough to steer an independent national course; and all the time our influence continues to dwindle further.
I do not enjoy saying this. But we must wake up to the fact that we are now living in an age of giants. Amalgamations, combines, big units of all kinds are the order of the day; and this applies to the political as well as to the industrial field. The great international decisions, which determine issues of peace and war and shape our destiny, are today in the hands of two super-Powers, America and Russia, and they will soon be joined by others, not only China but also a united Europe, with or without Britain. For we must not imagine that,

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if Britain stays out, Europe will stand still. Without us the six nations of the Community have a population approaching that of the United States and immense economic and intellectual resources. Quite understandably, they are not prepared indefinitely to play the secondary rôle of spectators in world affairs. They are determined to become not only an economic but also a political force, and to secure the influence to which they feel entitled. They see in political union the opportunity to exchange the illusion of independence under separate national sovereignty for the reality of strength and influence which they would jointly derive from the greater sovereignty of a united Europe.
We can of course close our eyes to what is happening around us and go on paddling our own canoe. We can sit still and watch the emergence across the Channel of a new giant, whose policies will profoundly affect our lives and fortunes, but in whose decisions we would have no say. We have the choice—to unite with others and share in their growing strength, or stand alone and be increasingly ignored.
Leaders on both sides of the House have made it clear that, in advocating Britain's entry into the Economic Community, they fully recognise that this carries with it wider political implications, and they have not been afraid to face the issue of sovereignty. In the debate on the Common Market last February, the Leader of the Opposition, speaking as Prime Minister, said:
"… the whole history of political progress is a history of gradual abandonment of national sovereignty."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th February, 1970; Vol. 796, c. 1326.]
In the same debate, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, then Leader of the Opposition, also emphasised the political nature of this issue. He said:
"… underlying our discussion of the economic aspects are deeper matters of international politics and, indeed, of international sovereignty …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th February, 1970; Vol. 796, c. 1216.]
My right hon. Friend thus made it clear that we are talking about nothing less than the creation of a wider international sovereignty, corresponding to the needs and realities of the world today.
Political union is not an immediate issue, although it is just as well to face the ultimate problem which will arise.
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The Economic Community is concerned exclusively with economic matters; and membership does not involve any commitment about future political integration. The Six themselves have given no such undertaking to each other and could not therefore ask it of us as a condition of entry. Any decision to extend the scope of the Community to the political sphere would of course require the unanimous agreement of all members; and I think that we may be sure that our European partners, whose national pride and sense of responsibility are just as great as ours, would not be any more ready than we are to give up any part of their separate sovereignties, unless they were convinced that this was in the true interests of their own peoples.
In any case, political union could not be brought about overnight. It must be a gradual process. Unity must develop. It must evolve from a growing European consciousness, based upon common interests, common moral values and a sense of common purpose. This will not happen from one day to the next. We must advance by stages—first consultation, then co-ordination, and finally integration. No one can yet say how far or how fast we shall be able to proceed along that road. But there should be no anxiety about taking the first simple step, which consists in organising regular consultation between European Governments on current issues of external affairs and defence. This is already beginning to take shape, and I hope that it will be further developed.
Although the question of sovereignty is outside the scope of the present negotiations, I thought it right to speak about it today, since this issue is being raised in some quarters as a bogy to frighten people away from the European idea. Personally, I welcome this widening of the area of public debate, for I am convinced that the more this question is discussed the more it will be recognised that the political union of Europe, with the added strength and influence which will flow from it, is the biggest prize of all. It is the final reward which will, I hope, eventually crown our efforts.
No one is more jealous than I of Britain's greatness, or more proud of her achievements through the centuries. But I do not believe that, with new power groups of continental dimensions arising

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around us, we can fulfil our rôle in isolation. In the changed circumstances of today, we must be prepared to join with our neighbours and work in partnership with them. As a leading member of a united Europe—and in no other way—can Britain effectively discharge her duty to her own people and once again play her part in shaping the course of history.
5.53 p.m.
Mr. Peter Shore: I think that I have understood the point of view of the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys), which I think was very seriously and eloquently stated. If I interpret him aright, what he is saying is that what attracts him most about the prospect of membership of Europe is not what it is now but the fact that in the end it might become a new force, a new power, a new super-power, able to match other super-powers—and that this country, in this new guise, would be able to shape the course of history in a way that it can no longer do, but which it did in the past.
I shall comment a little later on how I see the future, but I wanted to take up this point straight away, because what the right hon. Gentleman has said, not to mention the vast area covered by the two opening speakers, illustrates the extraordinary difficulty of coming to grips with this question of membership, not only for hon. Members but, of course, far more for people in the country as a whole.
I have always found in these debates that one thinks one has at last got to grips with the opposing argument, only to find that one is wrong, because the level of the argument has shifted. The thing goes on and on like this and it inevitably takes a great deal of time, as well as tenacity and effort, finally to pin down what it is that one is debating about. With Mr. Speaker's admonition to us at the beginning in mind, one has clearly to select the points which one intends to cover in order to give one's own—necessarily inadequate—view of our history and the future of our country and Western Europe and the rest of the world.
That, in a sense, was the coverage of my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold
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Lever) in his very interesting and, as usual, characteristically optimistic speech, in the fifty-odd minutes which were at his disposal. I think that he effectively dealt with the Chancellor of the Duchy—I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman is not far away—who started by saying that he thought that he had managed to narrow down the negotiations to three issues—the financial regulations, New Zealand and, I think, Mauritius and the sugar islands.
I am certainly not saying that those three issues are not extremely important, but after hearing what my right hon. Friend said, the House could have had no doubt that other and even greater issues—or at least as great—were involved. What my right hon. Friend brought out, for the first time in all the long series of discussions which the House has had about the Common Market, is the relationship between Britain's decision to go in and the future of the reserve currency system—not only of sterling, our own currency, but of the possible replacements of it, and, of course, associated with it this time and for the first time, the question of sterling balances. We know perfectly well that, now that the Basle Agreement has to be re-negotiated—the earlier agreement was only for two years—this question will also form part of the periphery of the negotiations.
The results of negotiations about the future of sterling and the renegotiation of Basle, although they could be considered crucial to our prosperity, will not be brought before the House as part of the package deal which we shall be able to judge. I should be very surprised if they were, but if we could have these included in the massive report at the end of the day, it would clearly be helpful.
Equally, the other points which my right hon. Friend mentioned are important. He mentioned economic and monetary union, which I thought he dealt with a little lightly; this also is a major new area of the negotiations which very much affects Britain's interests.
The third point which I would make right at the start is that this round of negotiations, quite apart from the enlargement of issues which has gone on since the last negotiations in 1967, has of course had this ill-fated prelude of the agreement among the Six; at the insistence of France they agreed to conclude their financial regulations. The whole

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financing and budgetary system of the Common Market was sewn up deliberately and timetabled before the negotiations with Britain began.
As all hon. Members know who have followed these negotiations in the past, a number of people found that the Common Market agricultural system and the impositions which this would place upon us were, in the last resort, not totally unacceptable, because they thought that, if they could get in before the transitional period ended, they could shape it and change it and reduce the burden which it would impose upon us. It cannot be done today and this is the heart of the problem. It is the reason why the right hon. Gentleman is wriggling and squirming over the terms for which he has asked.
Everybody has been talking about the terms for which the right hon. Gentleman is asking in relation to Britain's contribution to the European club in the transitional period. In his 16th December statement, the right hon. Gentleman gave his own costings of the terms for us in the transitional period. He said that there would be a direct contribution of between £140 million and £180 million plus a contribution of between £200 million and £300 million in indirect costs on the balance of payments.
Those were his own figures and obviously they are what he considers he is asking for only in relation to the transitional period. He cannot do better than that because he has had to accept the full rigours of the financial regulation—and that, which represents the Community's own resources, will come into effect at the end of the British transitional period.
This is a burden on Britain's economy of a kind which I find it difficult to contemplate. Virtually all of us have lived for our adult lives in a period when the great economic struggle for this country has been to overcome an adverse balance in our trade. Apart from last year—when we had a surplus of more than £300 million—I cannot recall a year, certainly in post-war times when this has not been our struggle. It has been our own special economic fight and if anybody thinks that it does not matter and never has, I remind him that our standard of living, our level of growth and our level of employment depend on the success we have in the struggle.
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Now apparently—I say "apparently"—we are contemplating, according to the right hon. Gentleman's minimum figures, taking on a balance-of-payments burden for the transitional period of at least £350 million and then, at the end of that period—as the right hon. Gentleman knows and as everybody in the Community knows—the burden will be far greater because of the permanent régime of the financial regulation.
The right hon. Gentleman must therefore hunt for a scrap of paper, a guarantee, and that scrap of paper represents the terms which were presented to us by him. The right hon. Gentleman will come back from Brussels with that scrap of paper because they will not be giving anything away. They will agree to write in words to the effect that if Britain runs into conditions of appalling deficit, it would be a crisis for the Community—but they will be committed to no action now or then. But we must consider the effects not only in the transitional period, when we know the burden will be heavy, but in the period beyond that, when it is likely to be even more severe.
I do not want on this occasion to go at length into the economic effects argument because there are other aspects that have been raised and on which I wish to comment. All hon. Members who have spoken so far have referred to sovereignty, and there is a lot to be said about it.
The right hon. Member for Streatham talked much more of political sovereignty and I wish to begin by referring to economic sovereignty because it seems to me that this is the area of decision, of self-government, which is of the greatest concern to a number of hon. Members and the public.
The question being asked—I will come to the political question later—is how we shall be affected in our efforts to run our own economy and affairs by joining the Community. I will not discuss growth and the balance-of-payments effects. I have already said that these will be serious.
Go beyond that and think in terms of what, by joining the Community, we would be renouncing as part of the terms of entry. Three or four of our major industries would be taken into Community control and out of national control. I refer to such as coal, steel, atomic energy, transport and agriculture. We would never again, without the permis-

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sion of the Commission, be able to sign a trade treaty with another land.
Unique in our history we would have the imposition on ourselves of new taxes which we would never otherwise have so imposed. Further, as a condition of entry we would have to be prepared to hand over the yield of those taxes to institutions which are certainly not our own and which are not responsible to the British democracy and British taxpayer.
Mr. Peter Blaker rose—
Mr. Shore: Interventions will only prolong my speech.
We would also renounce control over the movement of capital, labour and goods from Britain to Europe and from Europe to Britain. If anybody tells me that this would not be a significant down payment of sovereignty which is relevant to economic decision-making, I shall be surprised.
Remember, too, that it would be only the first instalment because, despite my right hon. Friend's levity on the subject of economic and monetary union, it is a fact that they have agreed in principle to establish a union, at heads of government level. This was stated in the Hague Communiqué of 1969, and the main conclusions of the Werner Report, the fact that it covers a ten-year period, the irrevocably fixed-exchange rates and other matters were formally endorsed at the Council of Ministers meeting in June. While there is a mass of information to be spelled out and examined, let us not deceive ourselves over this. There is plenty of time yet for these things to develop into the fight—
Mr. Blaker rose—
Mr. Shore: No. I will not give way.
Do not let us pretend that this is not a major issue or that it will not affect the lives and prosperity of our people. My right hon. Friend makes fun of devaluation. If we could not have used devaluation in 1967 this would have been a very unhappy land—far unhappier than with the consequences of devaluation. There comes a point, given differences in the relative growth rates of various countries, when if one cannot devalue when one's rate of growth is lower than that of other nations, one loses work and
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people and investment go elsewhere. Do not let us pretend, therefore, that this is not a relevant factor.
Mr. Harold Lever: I hope that my right hon. Friend, whose views on this and all other matters I greatly respect, does not think, as a result of what I said on this subject, that I do not regard it as of vital importance. I was saying that until arrangements of a satisfactory character covering any fixed parity factors among the Community are achieved, it cannot be considered that the terms are satisfactory.
Mr. Shore: We can argue about parity arrangements on another occasion, and the Community will be going into the first phase on this question before the end of the year.
The illustrations which I have given show that what I said about economic sovereignty applies. This is particularly so when we think of exchange rate policy, interest rates and taxation. That the Community would determine growth rates which should be aimed at is something which many of us find very hard to understand.
These economic factors are the weapons or tools with which Parliaments make decisions about the use of the nations' resources, and when I refer to the economy I am, of course, referring to something which has a great direct meaning for and effect on the lives of ordinary people. And these decisions are to be transferred—not immediately; some at once, others later—to agencies outside of this country.
Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke: All this may be true, but surely it was true four years ago, when the right hon. Gentleman was a member of the Cabinet which agreed that these things should happen. How does he square that with his conscience?
Mr. Shore: I have replied to that question on, I think, two occasions, and I am quite prepared to answer again, but this is obviously not the level at which we want to argue—[Interruption.] I really think so. We have a very serious argument to conduct, though I can answer the question if hon. Members want to waste time. I was not in the Cabinet in 1967. The main thing is the issues that have been raised.

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The economic picture, when one considers it in the short term or the medium term, is not very attractive. The Government Front Bench hope that the dynamic effect, as right hon. Gentlemen see it in the medium term or long term, will benefit us, but I have no doubt that we shall go through a period of immense difficulty. If that is not their view I do not think that they have considered the matter seriously enough. It would be a difficult and painful adjustment indeed if we were to go in. Given the fact that this very substantial shift of economic decision making is to take place, partly at the point of entry and later through an economic and monetary union, one has to ask oneself why, in the face of what is a most unattractive picture indeed, people so resolutely push ahead. What is there that attracts them?
The right hon. Member for Streatham was very honest with us. He gave us his picture of the future. It is a federal picture, and the right hon. Gentleman knows it. It has to be, because to mobilise that power we cannot co-ordinate national policies as in the Davignon Committee. What is the Davignon Committee? It is no different from the W.E.U. and we do not have to enter the Common Market in order to enter the W.E.U. We have been members of the W.E.U. for 22 years. The W.E.U. co-ordinates policies and agrees on defence. We do not have to join the Common Market in order to do what the Chancellor of the Duchy wants us to do.
But to do as the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Streatham wants us to do, we have to go further than joining the Common Market. We have to create a government, because only a government will have the power to command resources to match those of the super Powers. That idea attracts the right hon. Gentleman, but I find a lower key on the Opposition Front Bench. It is not so much that attraction as fear of being left out, of being excluded. That comes out again and again. The right hon. Gentleman is not the only Market supporter who uses that phrase about a world of giants. A lot of people are afraid of this, and they are afraid not for good reasons.
I want to say two things about a rather different point of view, and I direct these remarks, if I may, particularly at my right
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hon. Friend. In a very thoughful speech he somehow managed to confuse what I would call regional supranationalism with international supranationalism. In other words, he was claiming for his convictions about Europe what I would claim as an internationalist. His vision of the reserve currency is based on Europe. My main attraction to the idea of developing world reserves is through the I.M.F. He thinks largely of developing a big trade area in Western Europe. I am a Kennedy Round man, an U.N.C.T.A.D. man, unashamedly—
Mr. Harold Lever: So am I.
Mr. Shore: I am glad that my right hon. Friend agrees with me.
Mr. Lever: I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for giving way. He reflects a very serious inadequacy in his own reading, because if he had read this month's Banker he would see that I am expressly on record as sharing his views as to how the new international reserve assets should go, and that they should not go to a European currency but to an international currency. I see the rôle of Europe as bringing its strength to the support of that international operation to an extent which, so far at any rate, Europe has not understood as its responsibility.
Mr. Shore: I understand my right hon. Friend, but I was leading up to refute his picture of people who reject the Common Market as being narrow nationalists, and his view of those who wish to go in as being basically people who have learned the lessons of history and, above all, who remember the tragedies of two world wars.
I see that my right hon. Friend agrees. That is exactly the point that M. Deniau made on television when he was asked how we could persuade British people that it was in their interests to join the Common Market. M. Deniau replied, "Look at World War I and World War II," but the interviewer said, "This is about the future, not about the past. Do you think, M. Deniau, when you look round the world today, that the sources of trouble, of possible trouble spots that would ignite a war, would be conflicts between France, Germany and Britain?" It is true to say that that is a problem of the past, not of the future and so much thinking about Western Europe and

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about the context of world power in which they see it relates to the past, and not to the future.
I challenge that view of the future. The country would have found it more convincing 25 years ago. It is the Orwell vision—"1984"—and we are Airstrip 1—with four or five great super Powers dominating the world. That is how these people see it. They think that we must rush into the shelter of the nearest super Power. I do not see the future like that. I see a future of men living in their own nations and proud of their own nations, and co-operating internationally to solve the problems they cannot solve by themselves. It is the kind of world we have developed through the I.M.F. and through the whole family of post-war international institutions which we are creating and developing all the time.
This debate is very important. There are many major issues to be discussed and we need time to do it. Indeed, I think that we need three days for discussion, and I tell both Front Benches that they have a very great obligation to the nation. They must remember, and the Opposition certainly must remember, that they cannot be spectators of this great national decision. They will have to make up their minds, and I hope that they will do so very soon. They will also have to make up their minds about whether the people of this country are to be consulted about their own future, because the economic and political sovereignty of which I was speaking earlier is theirs; and that is the issue which, in the end, they themselves must decide.
6.18 p.m.
Mr. Robert Hicks: First, may I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for allowing me to catch your eye. May I also thank hon. Members in anticipation of the normal indulgence, which, as I have witnessed, they inevitably show to a maiden speaker and will I trust show to me on this occasion.
I have the honour to represent Bodmin which, in covering an area of some 600 square miles, includes a great variety of landscape; ranging from the bleak rugged area of Bodmin Moor itself, to the beautiful Rame Peninsula, with its superb coastline and picturesque villages. We
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are fortunate in having the Tamar Valley, a district of considerable beauty, as well as the well-known coastal settlements of Looe and Polperro and Fowey. It is a constituency whose great scenic attraction has led to an important and ever-growing tourist industry. This, together with agriculture and horticulture, comprises two of the main economic activities of the area.
In addition, we possess a wide range of light industry scattered unevenly throughout the constituency and, particularly since the opening of the Tamar Bridge, a large number of commuters who work in Plymouth have with admirable good sense decided to live west of the River Tamar; as well as people from all parts of the country who seek a peaceful retirement in the constituency.
Bodmin was very ably represented in the last Parliament by Mr. Peter Bessell, an extremely active and popular Member locally. There are many people in the constituency who have good cause to be grateful to him for the efforts which he made on their behalf. I can only hope to do at least as well as he did in that respect. I should like to take this opportunity to pay my personal tribute to him for the kindness and assistance he gave me following my election, particularly with regard to constituency cases outstanding which I inherited from him in June.
It is somewhat ironic that my predecessor, who was a member of the minority opposition party and was not in favour of the United Kingdom entering the European Economic Community, should have been succeeded by an hon. Member on this side of the House to whom the concept of the Common Market and, following on from that, a united Europe, has considerable appeal. It is not my intention this evening to develop the reasons for my taking this position, except to say that I believe relevant the evolutionary argument—the idea of a city State progressing through a national identity to some form of international grouping today; and the opportunities inherent in a domestic economic market of some 240 million to 250 million people have much to commend them.
There is no doubt that as a nation we are at a crossroads in the context of our world rôle. As one of the leaders of a strong and rejuvenated Europe, we

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could contribute much in a political context. These are but some of the attractions. Many others have already been outlined during the debate.
But, of course, it all depends on the kind of terms that our negotiating team can obtain for us. I wish to take advantage of this opportunity to focus the attention of the House on just three aspects, all of which are represented in my constituency. All, when viewed in the context of the national economy, could not be described as being major facets, yet all are significant, particularly in local economies, and taken together do add up, and must be given serious consideration.
The first concerns the position of the hill farmer. He plays a unique rôle in the overall pattern of domestic agriculture. It is estimated that he is responsible for some 7 to 8 per cent. of the total output of the national farm; chiefly through his contribution of some 500,000 cattle which annually leave the hills, either for slaughter or for fattening. The hill farmer provides about 10 per cent. of home beef output and keeps almost one-third of our output of sheep.
I readily appreciate that not all hill farmers are in receipt of the hill sheep subsidy and the hill cow subsidy, but for those who are I am worried that the loss of this specific form of assistance would not only have serious implications for their financial viability but would also seriously disrupt the pattern of United Kingdom livestock farming. We are all aware of the Community agricultural budget, but, as I understand it, the present level of the aggregate sum of the purely national budgets for agriculture exceeds the total Community agricultural budget. This is the measure of the support given to agriculture on an individual national basis within the Community. I would hope for the safeguard that our own special kind of assistance for the hill farmer will be maintained.
I turn now to horticulture. The House will be familiar with the problem facing the grower. Throughout the last decade, his costs have risen enormously while the price which he has received for his produce has virtually stood still. In this period, he has maximised his yields, and thus there is very little further which he
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can do to absorb any additional costs which he may have to face.
The effects of this situation can be clearly seen in our own Tamar Valley. Today, there are just over 300 full-time growers with an average age in excess of 50 years. Just five years ago, there were 500 growers. I would ask our negotiating team to give further consideration to the desirability of a special transitional period for horticulture, say, for eight years rather than the agreed five years. Secondly, I request an effective import limitation policy during the time that our own home produce is coming on to our own domestic market.
I want, finally, to refer to the position of inshore fishermen if we decide to enter the Common Market. As hon. Members will know, the Cornish inshore fishing industry is long-established and still employs, both directly and in ancillary trades, a considerable proportion of the population in coastal localities. In Looe there has been a rejuvenation in this economic activity. Whereas five years ago only six boats were operating, today there are 26. This, in part, has been prompted by certain favourable measures introduced by successive Governments. It would seem a retrograde step to allow to decline an industry into which much public money has been spent, and as a result of which many local people have entered into large personal financial commitments.
The Common Market fisheries policy as recently announced would have a disastrous effect on the Cornish inshore fishing industry. As these coastal waters have been carefully conserved, they would immediately attract the fleets from other member countries. One learns that the Norwegian negotiators have been taking a very strong line, and I hope that our own Ministers will join them in order to fight to retain the existing territorial limits.
The economic future, indeed the very existence, of all three of the sectional interests which I have mentioned depends on the type of agreement which we can obtain in Brussels. I ask my right hon. Friends to be fully aware of the adverse social and economic aspects that could result for these three categories of the rural community if we fail to get satisfactory entry terms for them.
6.30 p.m.
Mr. Frank Judd: I congratulate the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Hicks) on his maiden speech. All who heard it will agree that it augurs well for his future contributions in the House. It shows a sensitive understanding of the different sections of the community which make up the constituency. I congratulate him also for having had the opportunity to make a maiden speech in such a significant debate. Whether or not we enter the Common Market will have profound implications for all our constituents throughout Britain. It was interesting to hear the hon. Member for Bodmin endeavouring to relate his understanding of his constituents' problems to this important issue.
A fervent European academic, Professer Villey, described the Treaty of Rome on one occasion as:
"Interminable, complicated, inextricably muddled. A mixture of eloquent declarations of principle, of tiny and sometimes ridiculously detailed rules, platonic protestations of good intentions. Pious hopes, principles, exceptions to principles, and exceptions to exceptions."
If one accepts that as a valid description of the Treaty, it is understandable that any Minister negotiating on behalf of Great Britain must insist forcefully on our right as a new and important potential Member to see adaptations to existing arrangements and a suitable period within which adjustments in our own system can be completed if we decide to enter.
The Minister responsible referred this afternoon to certain misapprehensions, as he described them, amongst the British electorate. It is my experience that there is a good deal of very sophisticated and articulate concern in Britain now about the consequences of entering, and that it is not limited to a concern as to what the price of food will be should we enter. Not at all. There is a basic suspicion of the extraordinary turn-round in the overall context within which arguments are now being advanced from the time at which we previously attempted to enter. The British electorate was then told in no uncertain language that the economic advantages of entry far outweighed the political disadvantages. The electorate is now being told over and over again that, if we are not certain that there are economic advantages, and even if
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there are marginal economic disadvantages, the political advantages far outweigh any economic disadvantages. That is an awful lot for the British electorate to swallow in a period of less than a decade.
I want to deal with some of the arguments put to me in dicussions with my constituents and others on this issue. People are normally concerned about the impact on the cost of living. Their concern takes two forms. First, they accept that the Government may introduce measures to look after and protect special groups of the community, but they ask how the Government can embrace a policy which may be directly inflationary when we are living in an increasingly competitive world and when the increase in the basic cost of living will directly affect our competitive power as a trading nation. That is a problem receiving a good deal of attention now.
The second point concerns social justice. People have said to me, "We are told when we raise the subject of the cost of living that we must not confuse the cost of living with the standard of living, and that although the cost of living may rise as a result of entry, the standard of living may also rise". But they go on to say, "What we fear is that after entry, well-organised sections of the community in important key industries might adjust more rapidly to the new situation and be able to enjoy an enhanced standard of living, but there are many people in a less strong bargaining position who might be left far behind and suffer in a very adverse sense the consequences of entry". We need to know a good deal more about the Government's strategy on this front before we can make an intelligent decision.
The third point concerns the economic principles on which the Community is based. People often ask me whether it is not a fact that the Treaty of Rome, in effect, enshrines the principles of laissez-faire, and they ask whether the trends already well established in the present Government's economic policy at home are not naturally attractive to existing Members of the Community, who see these as more suitably geared for British entry. People ask me whether, as a result of entry, we shall not see increasing trends towards take-overs and mergers, despite theoretical safeguards

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against cartels, and they ask about the concentration of economic power which this represents. They make the point, which I endorse, that one of the weaknesses of Western democracy at present is that we see, on the one hand, the increasing accumulation of economic power on an international basis, and, on the other hand, the gravest difficulties of the so-called democratic political structures in trying to control and make accountable this economic power.
If the Government regard themselves as committed to the spirit of democracy, within the context of an approach to the Community, we must ask them to give us some detailed information—the sooner the better—about how they will effect accountability of this greatly enhanced economic power which is likely to result from entry.
Another point put to me is concerned particularly with the principle of free movement of capital. A good number of people ask how, if the free movement of capital is to be applied, we shall avoid a situation in which, in the long run, a large part of the British Isles, outside the South-East and the industrial Midlands, rapidly acquires the same degree of social and economic difficulty which confronts the people of Calabria and Southern Italy.
Another point put to me concerns our relationship to the Commonwealth, and how this will be affected by entry. We have heard something in the debate already about the implications for New Zealand and for member countries of the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement. We heard from the Minister that he has narrowed down his negotiations to these two points amongst his total of three points, but we have heard nothing whatsoever from him about the precise terms he will secure. For a number of the member countries of the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement, we must remember that this is a matter of life or death and that this country owes a debt of gratitude and has a responsibility to those member countries who have assured on a planned basis our sugar supply over so many years. Again, we obviously cannot make final decisions until we know the details of terms to be applied.
Something is always said in this kind of debate about the associate status which
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is available, for example, to independent African countries which are members of the Commonwealth. We are told, understandably, that a number of these countries already have sought associate status and, therefore, we need not be concerned. There is just one doubt remaining in my mind. How far are countries which seek associate status doing it because they believe that it is an ideal step for them? How far are they doing it because they have no alternative but to do it? To what extent shall we find that the associate status which may be granted to them underlines an existing first-class/second-class economic relationship, with Europe as the sophisticated, advanced industrial market and their rôle always to be that of the suppliers of primary products on terms to be determined by the sophisticated market?
When we talk about overseas development, we are thinking too much about the flow of capital and technical resources. Our bluff is called when representatives of the developing world ask what we are prepared to do about restructuring world trade so that they can develop balanced economies and secondary industries themselves. We have heard nothing today about the way in which British entry into the Community as distinct from progress at U.N.C.T.A.D. will help fulfil that objective.
The fourth point put to me concerns the constitutional issue. I was speaking only yesterday to sixth formers of a school in my constituency. I was asked what was the constitutional significance of British entry. Those sixth formers said that they had been told that we have an unwritten constitution which is pragmatic and has evolved over centuries. They wanted to know whether, in the event of our going into the Common Market and becoming signatories to the Treaty of Rome, we should in fact be making an enormous switch to a written, inflexible constitution which would then govern a great deal of our social and economic life. Clearly, there should be more open debate between us about the wider constitutional implications before we expect the British people to follow us into the Market.
The fifth point concerns the political structure, and again this has been touched on in the debate. I find that there is a

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great deal of worry about the relationship between the power of the bureaucrats in the Commission, who are in constant session in the same building, working side by side, day after day, and the limited power of the Ministers who come together more occasionally. Even some of those who are in favour of entry put it to me that this is not a good system, since the efficiency of the Commission is held up by the inefficiency of the Ministers meeting only occasionally. Either way it is possible to argue that it is not an ideal arrangement.
We have had declarations of intention about the strengthening of parliamentary institutions within the Community as rapidly as possible. But we have had no precise detail about how that is to be achieved or about how the Commission or the Ministers can be made accountable within a democratic system.
Mr. Laurie Pavitt: May I remind my hon. Friend that the Ministers discuss only the agenda which has been prepared by the Commission? They cannot create their own agenda.
Mr. Judd: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's emphasis of the problems. As it was put in an earlier speech, at a time when so many politicians on all sides express their concern about the growth of impersonal and remote bureaucracy in Britain and the need for effective devolution and finding new ways of democratic participation, it is odd that we should be so ready to move into an international group which has a still more powerful bureaucracy over which it will be even more difficult to exercise control.
People have also raised with me a range of issues concerned with the implications of going in with a positive spirit to make the best of the Community. They want to know why we do not hear more detail about how we are to adapt our social legislation so that it becomes more like that of the Common Market, and how we shall change our balance of taxation—between direct and indirect—so that that becomes more like that of the Common Market. They also want to know what is to happen to our system of law as we try to harmonise it with that of the E.E.C. Such points are put to me by people at meetings held to discuss these matters, and it demonstrates
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the growing concern which exists in Britain.
Mr. John Brewis: All these matters affect the other six countries in the Community. None of them has tried to get out on any of these grounds. Should not we be in the Market, in order to help ourselves deal with these problems?
Mr. Judd: That is an interesting point. When the original signatories signed the Treaty of Rome, they did so after lengthy and prolonged negotiations in which each of them bargained for their special positions. We have been told that the right hon. Gentleman who is responsible for our negotiations has boiled the issues down to three. I suggest that that is a rather narrow approach to a matter of such great and all-pervasive significance, and that we should be concerned to know the Government's views on this whole range of economic and social issues.
I come finally to the point that was developed with such feeling and sensitivity by my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) on the issue of interdependence. I regard myself as being very much part of that international tradition in our party which endorses the general philosophy of interdependence and the readiness to sacrifice sovereignty at the right time. However, that does not mean that we should be prepared to sacrifice sovereignty to any institution. We have to make informed decisions about what are the appropriate institutions to advance a genuine international community.
It is no coincidence that, at a time when we are hoping to enter the E.E.C., our Prime Minister is deadlocked in confrontation with a representative cross-section of the so-called third world in Singapore. If we accept that the real threat to world peace does not lie in a repetition of the traditional conflicts of Europe or in a direct confrontation between the super powers of East and West but in some escalating conflict in the third world, we must ask, and the Government must tell us, how politically, by entry into the E.E.C., we shall reach greater harmonisation and understanding with the peoples of the so-called third world who are now coming forward to take their rightful place in the world, in the front line rather than in an inferior rôle. That point has not been established.
Mr. Denis Healey: Has my hon. Friend ever reflected on the interesting fact that, at a time when our Government seem to be antagonising the African members of the Commonwealth, all of them are applying for associate status inside the Common Market, whereas a few years ago many of them doubted whether that would be compatible with their economic and political interests? Now, apparently, they no longer have those doubts. I ask my hon. Friend to consider that fact. I think that he will find that it is pregnant with many important considerations that he should keep in mind.
Mr. Judd: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that observation. I thought that I had dealt with it a few moments ago when I said that one of the reasons why many of those countries sought associate status was not that they wanted associate status but that they had no alternative in the political reality which now exists, and that associate status in many ways underlines the first-class/second-class relationship, they being the suppliers of primary products for the sophisticated market of which we shall be members.
I realise that this is a contentious issue, but I must emphasise this point. Some of my hon. Friends say—it is a telling point—that we ought to go in so as to change the Community, making it outward-looking and introducing a spirit attuned to the realities of the present day, with the new nations coming forward. But we cannot at this juncture ignore that the men who are responsible for the negotiations, the men who are taking us in, are patently not aware of those issues and are not in tune with the new problems of the world community. We must ask ourselves seriously on this side how we shall be able to be more influential within the Economic Community on these important issues if, in the immediate future when the stage is being set we are to be represented politically by people who do not share our objectives and who have a great deal in common with other political leaders of the Right in the Community at present.
It has been said that we should now have a lively and open debate, and I agree that that is what people want. But if it is argued that people ought to be informed on all the details of the conse-
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quences of what we are now preparing to do, it is, surely, a bit meaningless to have a debate of this kind if we are then to say that we refuse to find a meaningful way of taking into account the views of the British people. The views, beliefs and convictions of the British people should count in this matter.
I am not one to favour Government by referendum. I believe that to be the quickest road to political stagnation. But there are always exceptions to principles, and I regard this question as so significant—on the constitutional issue alone, if on no other, though I believe that a whole range of other issues come into it—that we ought to be prepared to consider meaningful ways by which the British people, who in the end are sovereign in our society, may have an opportunity to make their views known before we finally reach our decision in the House of Commons.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): Before calling the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Hugh Fraser), I must reiterate what Mr. Speaker said earlier. The Chair has a list of the names of about 50 hon. Members who are eminently qualified to speak in the debate. It will greatly help us all if hon. Members will keep their speeches as short as possible.
6.53 p.m.
Mr. Hugh Fraser: I take that as personal message, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I promise to observe it. I shall no do as the two Front Bench speakers did and take 90 minutes, and then occupy another 15 with interventions.
My first duty is to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin (Mr. Hicks) on his admirable maiden speech. He showed great skill both in talking about his constituency and in talking with a fairly open mind about the attitude of the present Government and the Opposition Front Bench. On the cliffs of Bodmin he must cliff-hang and make up his mind when matters are clearer on issues such as sea fishing and hill cattle. From the cliffs of Bodmin, he can view all these matters with great clarity, I am sure.
One speech which we were looking forward to, but which we have not had, was a speech from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It staggers me that we have had no speech from our Front Bench on

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the various matters which are his concern, and it fell to the right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever), who made a most interesting discourse, to discuss the question of the Euro-dollar and the question of reserve currencies. These important matters were swept aside by my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy in his review, and he really did not touch on them. They were not touched upon in the House of Lords yesterday either, in a very long and, it struck me, rather tedious debate, when their Lordships showed themselves middle-class, middle-minded and middle-aged—all the old hacks being trotted out on a subject so important as the Common Market.
Sometimes, I think that the Patronage Secretary, so as to give encouragement, ought to issue prizes for keenness on the Common Market. There is, I know, the Charlemagne prize, but that goes only to top people. What about a Julian the Apostate prize? He did great things to unify Europe in the fourth century. There seems to be something of a claque among Conservatives now. What about my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lewes (Sir T. Beamish)? Everyone seems so keen on the Common Market, but I can remember that it was a dead duck four years ago. Today, it has become a sort of canard enchainé—to use a rather jolly French phrase now so fashionable.
I shall not speak for long, but there are three questions on which the Government and the Opposition Front Bench must be more precise in the House of Commons. When my right hon. and learned Friend did his review of 10 years of the Common Market approach, he failed to mention the great White Paper issued by the previous Government, An Economic Assessment, Cmnd 4289. That is an important Paper for the ordinary people of this country. We want to know much more about what the two Front Benches calculate to be the cost of entry.
I see no change for the better since that White Paper was published. In fact, there has been a deterioration, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore) pointed out a few minutes ago, in so far as the tax system of the Six has become much more committed than it was when negotiations began in 1967. That should not be forgotten.
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Second, there must be far more clarity on the question of sovereignty. I know that this bores the House and that hon. Members on both the Front Benches and the back benches say that it does not really matter, we can just go forward gently, and so on. I remind the House, since French seems to be so fashionable, of another French saying—"C'est le premier pas qui couste". A young lady had been telling Voltaire about St. Denis, the patron saint of Paris, and about how he had walked around Paris with his head off and under his arm. Voltaire replied "Ah, il n'y a que le premier pas qui coute" to paraphrase a little, once one is in that sort of miraculous situation, one will not get out of it.
It is all very well for my right hon. and learned Friend to say that the question of giving away sovereignty does not matter, that the whole history of Europe has been a history of gradually giving away sovereignty to bigger and better units—which, incidentally, according to him, we shall control. The fact is that, once we start on that path, there is no giving up. There can be no question about that.
Last, the question of the Werner plan, which also was dismissed by the right hon. Member for Cheetham as an irresponsible, tiresome and unimportant question. The Werner plan has been designed by the Prime Minister of Luxembourg, and I am told that the head of the Rutland County Council is in full agreement with it. It is a very interesting plan, a plan for eventual unification in one European currency.
If that plan is not to be just a series of steps which do not matter, if it is to mean—as it must—a common budget, a common tax structure and a common employment policy, and if the Government think that it is going through, will they, assuming that we have entered the Community, use their veto? We must have that assurance. That is the only question I ask. In winding up the debate, let the Government give an assurance that, if the Werner plan is likely to go through, they will veto it. That is what national sovereignty is about.
I shall take only eight minutes, as I promised, and I come finally to the question of consultation. On 5th May, 1970, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, at a great gathering on British soil in

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Paris, I think at the British Chamber of Commerce, declared that the people of this country would be fully consulted. They are not being fully consulted. I know that the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn), the former Minister of Technology, invents a new way of measuring the barometer of political pressures and passions every evening. One day he will unveil a Bill showing how the wonderful machine works, and we shall all be interested to see it. One thing that we need is more than just a count of Members here, who are tied to political parties and have advantages from political parties, and so on, or of Members of the House of Lords, who are not representative of the people. We must see that there is proper consultation on this vital matter. There are many ways in which there could be proper consultation, and I assure the Government that for the next month, until they devise such a method, we shall be constantly pressing them for its introduction.
7.1 p.m.
Mr. Russell Johnston: May I first associate myself with the remarks of the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Hugh Fraser) and the hon. Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd) about the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Hicks). I compliment him on the clarity and force with which he expressed his opinions, and thank him for his kind remarks about my former colleague, Mr. Peter Bessell.
It has been said in the Press that this debate will be largely a going over of old ground—as we would say in Scotland, cauld kail het. I hope that it will be more than that. I should like to think that two constructive things can come out of the debate and can be considered by the British public. Despite what has been said by, for example, the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone, the British public are not really short of information, but they seem rather less than keen to examine it than perhaps they should be. There is no shortage of information about the Common Market. This Chamber could be filled with documents on the subject. It is a question of the energy to read them, and I think that the British public are lacking in that at present. I do not think that they fully appreciate that the decision that will be made will be more important than any other in this decade.
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First, what do we want? Second, can what we want be achieved? Those are two very basic questions. The official views of all three parties are the same. I am proud that the Liberal Party has held this view consistently since the war. The Conservative Party has held it since 1962, and the Labour Party since 1966 or thereabouts—officially. We have felt that there is a right and a need to involve ourselves in the question of European integration. It must be crystal clear that the wish to be involved in European integration, which I think the majority of right hon. and hon. Members share, is opposed by a minority, not simply on economic grounds—those are the ones that are most often articulated; not even principally on political grounds, which are probably more important, but are less sellable to the public; but basically on emotional grounds. When I say that the basic opposition to the E.E.C. is emotional I am not saying that those grounds are any the less important for being irrational—all emotion is irrational—because emotion is perhaps the great determinant in all forms of human behaviour. There are people in the House—and those of us who are in favour of the idea of Europe must face this—who, no matter what economic and political arguments we produce will still say, "No".
Sir Harmar Nicholls: What evidence has the hon. Gentleman that the anti-Common Marketeers in the country approach the matter more emotionaly than do the pro-Common Marketeers? Both approach it emotionally. I would say that the emotional approach is equally divided.
Mr. Johnston: I do not want to go over the whole argument, but the accumulated evidence of the direction of associations in Europe is in one definite direction. For example, there are Socialists in the House who admire Willy Brandt and extol his Ostpolitik. They say he is a good person, but would not want to be associated with his Government or his country in shared decisions.
Mr. John Mendelson: Outrageous nonsense.
Mr. Johnston: What I have said is true. It is equally true that there are Conservatives in the House who agree in the main with the political attitude of M. Pompidou but do not want to enter

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into any arrangement whereby his country and our country share common decisions and common responsibility for those decisions. The objection to that is much more emotional than logical.
Mr. Mendelson: I cannot speak for Conservatives, but I can speak as a typical Socialist who admires the policy of Willy Brandt and who would be very happy to be associated with the West German Chancellor in many political enterprises. But we are not asked that this country should join Willy Brandt. We are asked to join the Economic Community, with certain very important consequences for the future of the people of this country. The hon. Gentleman's whole point is irrelevant.
Mr. Marten rose—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): Order. It is better not to have two interruptions together.
Mr. Johnston: I am simply saying what I feel—and the interjections have tended to prove my point. When the hon. Member for Bodmin spoke about the problems of Cornish fishing, the hon. Member for Penistone shouted "Hear, hear" in a loud, bold voice. I doubt very much whether he has ever previously considered the matter.
The whole question was well summed up some months ago when Dan McGarvey, of the boilermakers' union, said that if he were faced with an option between the benefit of British boilermakers and French peasants he knew which side he was on. That is exactly what is wrong with opposition to the E.E.C. It is not a question of the benefit of the boilermakers or the peasants but the fact that we in Europe in all classes and occupations must sit down together and devise methods whereby we are all equally and fairly treated.
Mr. Marten: May I put a nicer veneer on the question being discussed and quote from the speech of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister at the Guildhall on 29th July, 1969. Dealing with this very point, he said this about people's fears:
"It would be a great mistake for us to scoff at or belittle these worries, for they stem from a sense of patriotism which provides the foundation for most of what is sound and energetic in Britain today."
I think that that is the right way in which we should treat this discussion.
Mr. Johnston: I hope that it is not being suggested that I am scoffing. What I am saying is that the opposition to integration, to people getting together in Europe or in a wider sphere, is a negative thing.
Mr. John Mendleson: The hon. Gentleman is talking nonsense.
Mr. Johnson: The hon. Member for Penistone is muttering behind me. I would say this to him, and it is a serious point. For three years before the last General Election I was honoured to serve on the Royal Commission on Local Government in Scotland, and found it vastly interesting. In those three years I found parallels which could well be drawn between the attitudes adopted by local areas within Scotland—and the same was true of Maud—and the attitudes which are being adopted within Europe to some sort of common operation of our affairs. It is perfectly comparable and the remarks made by the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone when he compared Rutland to Luxembourg showed this to be so, even in his mind.
Having given way to interruptions, I have perhaps gone on too long, and I want to turn briefly to the problems of the negotiations now being conducted and in which it is right that those of us who want the right hon. and learned Gentleman to succeed should ourselves be involved. Liberals have never said at any time that we would sign a blank cheque. Neither has the right hon. Gentleman nor his predecessors. In the past, we have been accused by both Front Benches of doing so, however, but we have not. Within the negotiations, we must look at particular problems. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has brought this out from time to time during questioning, and sometimes it is lost on hon. Members who oppose entry, perfectly reasonably, that any negotiation is a question of give and take and adjustment.
I, for example, am a Scotsman. I am Chairman of the Scottish Liberal Party. I therefore am inevitably interested and involved in the vital problems of regional development in Scotland, which are not unique in Britain because they apply also to the South-West of England, Wales, and the North of England. They also exist in the E.E.C. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows, the meeting held not long ago at Brest bore out

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that the E.E.C. itself is fully concerned with the problems of the peripheries and the under-developed areas. Therefore, we have here a common problem and we should not perhaps lay so much stress on the difficulties but on the fact that they are recognised within the E.E.C.
In stressing that, as I hope he will, the right hon. and learned Gentleman will aid the countries within Europe themselves, to which this is a serious problem. There are questions of regional taxation differentials; there are questions of agriculture, with which the Minister of Agriculture will be primarily concerned; there are questions of fishing, which I have had the opportunity of speaking to him about; there are questions of transport. Transport is going to be a major problem for the ends of Britain in terms of the Treaty of Rome. The Liberal Party has argued for tapered freight rates, which are ruled out under the Treaty. This is going to be a real problem now which we have to face and which one can make adjustments about.
I am equally concerned that, in creating a large unit of this sort, we shall have the means of democratically controlling it, not only at the centre but within it. I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will agree that, the larger the unit, the greater the degree of necessary democratic decentralisation within it.
I have no doubt in my mind that I want the right hon. and learned Gentleman to succeed. I have no doubt that, outside Europe, our economic and political potential will be diminished, and progressively diminished. I notice that the opponents of entry dwell far more on the economic and political objections to entry than on the alternatives. We do not get great speeches on a North Atlantic Free Trade Association or on the other things that Britain could do which would be exciting and stimulating and would raise the whole nation. We get negative speeches on why we are not concerned about this, that and the other.
I have no doubt that our capacity to lead and stimulate the Commonwealth will depend on the strength we can derive from Europe. When we vote tomorrow night, if we do vote, I hope that that is what we will have in our minds, because the vote will not be about whether we
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go in but whether we want to go in. I want to go in but I am very concerned about many things and many problems which will be involved if we do. I wish the right hon. and learned Gentleman well in pressing these difficulties as hard and effectively as he can.
7.15 p.m.
Mr. Ronald Bell: The right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) disclaimed in his speech any desire to give spiritual guidance and yet I thought that, in the 50 minutes or so for which he spoke, that was exactly what he was doing. I think that this is the way in which the two Front Benches want the debate to be conducted—upon very wide general principles about the goodness of virtue and the badness of sin, and when one is asked to choose between the two, it is not easy to say that one prefers sin.
When the right hon. Gentleman discussed these matters, he was not particularly, it seemed to me, discussing them in relation to Europe at all, but when he was discussing them in relation to Europe he was doing so in relation to an association between Britain and Europe. I have never been opposed, in all the years of my interest in this matter, to an association of some kind between Britain and Europe. It depends what kind, after all. What I have been and still am opposed to is Britain signing the unamended Treaty of Rome.
The crucial fact we shall have to come back to at the end of all these debates is that the negotiations, the end of which we await, have been conducted upon the unwavering principle of not asking for any amendment of the Treaty of Rome. When I last spoke on this subject in 1967 in this House, I described my own development of opinion from a cautious favouring of association with the Treaty of Rome, through doubt to eventual confident opposition to it. Therefore, I am in no position, even if I were inclined, to complain about other people shifting their ground.
What I object to is the manner in which the ground has been shifted. In 1961 and the years following, we used to be told, as the hon. Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd) said, that we had to go in on economic grounds, that we could not afford to stay out, that we should be an off-shore island of the Con-

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tinent. We shall, of course, be an offshore island of the Continent whatever we decide in these matters, but that is one of those pregnant phrases which is supposed to do our thinking for us. The political implications were something that, as a matter of realism, we had to accept.
Now, of course, it is mainly put the other way round. That is fair enough if it represents a genuine conversion, such as befell the Apostle Paul. But the presentation arouses my suspicions always. When argument is joined upon the economic pluses and minuses, the enthusiasts for signing implore us not to treat this great and fateful step in this mundane way but to see it as a great vision, the forging of a new political future, bright with hope of new world power and influence. We have heard it all from my right hon. Friend again today.
But begin to scrutinise the political implications of joining and the accumulation of detriments which one then begins to detect is swept aside by references to the C.B.I.—the last refuge of intellectual bankruptcy—and exciting, although unparticularised, hints are made of a great surge that can be confidently expected to turn up at any moment if we will only join. It makes debate difficult when one's opponents will never stand their ground but I will do my best—briefly, because we have had some very long speeches.
The argument on economic grounds is as follows. What one thought crystal clear up until now, amid all the versions, was that, in the short term—say, the first five to 10 years anyway—the economic impact would be thoroughly adverse. Indeed, this was quantified by the right hon. Member for Huyton (Mr. Harold Wilson) in saying that, in the first year after joining, there would be an adverse payment across the exchanges of £100 million, rising by £100 million a year to £500 million in the fifth year. Thereafter it was not specified. Then again, in the 1970 White Paper—as my right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Hugh Fraser) said, we have had no reference to it today—it was put as being of the order of £700 million a year.
It would be wrong to think of that deficit, that detriment, as due solely, directly or indirectly, to the common
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agricultural policy, although that played a major part. It is also due to the loss of the preferential areas in E.F.T.A. and the Commonwealth. In 1969 and 1970, we were asked to set off against that longer term advantages that could not be defined but ought to be hoped for or expected. That was clear enough. Whatever one thought of it, there was the picture set out before our eyes. Apparently, it was too clear for the "signers at all costs". The picture is being blurred in two ways. First, we are insistently reminded that this is only the result before negotiation. Secondly, we are reminded that a great surge—the same one—will float the whole thing off—one knows the argument—only ½ per cent. growth in our production so that calculation is really rather a waste of time anyway.
Both these arguments are hard to understand. First, how can the negotiations in train affect the detriment except marginally? No amendment of the Treaty is even being asked for. What the negotiation is about is, "When and by what steps will the detriment be imposed?" When do we start, in fact? The 1967 estimate by the right hon. Member for Huyton was based on a five-year escalation, which is exactly what we are now told to expect. Not much change there.
We are told, for example, what we knew—that one may shade in the agricultural lunacy, but in the end we shall get it. The right hon. Member for Huyton was at least honest about that. He told the House in 1967:
"… must be realistic in recognising that C.A.P. is an intergral part of the Community. This recognition must form part of our position. We have to decide whether or not to apply for entry to a Community which is characterised by this particular agricultural system. It is useless to think that we can wish it away, and I shall be totally misleading the House if I suggest that this policy is negotiable."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th May, 1967; Vol. 746, c. 1066.]
That is what we were told, and that is the truth. Anything else is misleading the House and is mere humbug.
I turn now to the great surge. For the short term, this is a late thought. Public opinion being so strongly against our accession to the Treaty, a new obfuscation was desperately needed and "dynamism" is the answer.
Mr. Rippon: My hon. and learned Friend said that no reference had been made to the White Paper of 1967. These

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concepts of the impact effects and the dynamic effects are set out fully in that White Paper. As far as the figure of £670 million, to which he referred, is concerned. I remind him that that was a gross figure. As I explained in my statement of 16th December, there is a difference between this gross figure and the net figure, which matters across the exchanges. There have been no new concepts introduced and no attempts by anybody to mislead the House about the acceptance of the agricultural policy.
Mr. Bell: I am obliged for what my right hon. Friend has said. Our purpose in these debates is to get these things set out with clarity. We now know that the agricultural policy is not negotiable. Therefore, it is no good saying that we will change it before or after we go in. It is an integral part of the Community and everybody knows that it is a foundation block of the balanced bargain made between the original members who set up the Treaty. When I spoke of dynamism as being a late thought, I was referring to the 1970 White Paper in which it had its first public birth. Until then we had not heard about it.
I was asking why should dynamism break out when we sign the Treaty of Rome. It certainly has not broken out in the countries which did sign the Treaty. There has been nothing great, but a slight levelling off of their growth since they signed the Treaty.
Mr. Blaker: Has my hon. and learned Friend studied the records of the two slowest growing economies before 1958, namely, Belgium and the Netherlands? If he does so, he will find that what he has just said is not true.
Mr. Bell: I do not think my hon. Friend should pick his bits of evidence like that. What I said was that the growth of the Community has levelled off a little since they signed the Treaty. The order of magnitude is small. I merely say that it has slowed down a bit; they are not doing quite as well as before. There are certain things that may account for it. I merely mention this because one cannot argue that just by signing a Treaty and joining the others there will be a surge of dynamism.
Mr. John P. Mackintosh rose—
Mr. Bell: I will not give way.
Mr. Mackintosh: The hon. and learned Gentleman has given way only once.
Mr. Bell: I have given way more than once. I have given way twice. As the hon. Gentleman will know twice is 100 per cent. more than once. One might as well argue that if one signs a Treaty with Japan a bit of dynamism might rub off from them. The answer one tends to get is that if we sign two results will follow. The first is the stimulating effect of the chill wind of competition. The other is the famous concept of the bigger home market.
As for the first matter, the chill may become less stimulating when one has to take restrictive credit action to offset the early detriment to the balance of payments. Credit action is the only kind available in the Community system. It is a strange argument that the economic effects of a policy will be initially so adverse that they will face people with bankruptcy or violent reaction and so turn out to be beneficial. That is an odd reason for doing something which will be detrimental to oneself.
The "bigger market" argument is always cropping up and is basically fallacious. What do people mean by it? They mean only one thing, and that is the common external tariff of the Community. Apart from tariffs the world is one's market. It is only the tariffs that are the fences. This is simply saying that once inside the common external tariff, there will be a great surge of production. But the moment we step inside, we step outside Commonwealth preference and lose our preferential position in the E.F.T.A. Community.
When we first heard all the fallacious talk about bigger home markets, the average common external tariff on the goods Britain might have wanted to send to the Community was 11¼ per cent. That is not my figure; it is the official figure. Since then we have had the Kennedy Round, which will finally reduce those tariffs by 37½ per cent. on 1st January next, some 11 months away. I do not know what 37½ per cent. off 11¼ per cent. amounts to, but I believe it is something in the region of 7 to 7½ per cent. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] All right, call it 7½ per cent. The House can work it out as I speak. Whatever it means, getting

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inside that tariff is hardly a rich prize. I observe that at present continental motor manufacturers appear to be doing rather well in our market over a very much bigger tariff.
Mr. John Wells: If I may reinforce ray hon. Friend's argument, not only is getting over the tariff fence a small prize, but officials in many of the Common Market countries maintain their own private local barriers against various products. This will be detrimental to a certain number of agricultural and horticultural products from Britain.
Mr. Bell: It could be that when one is inside the tariff one is not over the fence, but even taking the matter prima facie it is a ridiculous argument.
I turn to the political angle on which there is a strong ambivalence. Sometimes people are attracted as is my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) by the glittering picture of the prizes of unification. My right hon. Friend does not mince his words about this or anything else for that matter. He calls it integration. He is quite frank and we know where he wants to go. He wants to go to a single Government and single institutions. Integration is stronger even than federation. Then my right hon. Friend said, "I am glad to talk about this but let us remember that it is not actually in the Treaty. It is separate and might come later." Several of those who want to sign have taken the same line namely that it is somewhat of an irrelevance and that one would come to this situation gently and could make up one's mind as one went along.
I prefer the view which was expressed by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, and I only regret that he has not repeated those remarks more recently than 1959. My right hon. Friend then said:
"It is wrong to look at European economic problems solely from the point of view of their economic implication. In what we have been considering the political are even more important than the economic implications."
and he went on
"We must not advocate courses or make suggestions that we are not prepared to follow through to their ultimate consequences. If we do that we shall be right to earn the title of Perfide Albion."
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Then a little later he said:
"We must recognise that the aim of the proponents in the Community is political integration and that there was no support for that."
Let us get clear in our minds that the step by step approach is inappropriate. It is not only a matter of le premier pas qui coute.… It is dishonest and dishonourable to embark on entry into a Community knowing that this is what is intended, knowing that it is in the preamble, and always keeping one's options open.
When the country is asked to decide on accession or non-accession it must do as my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has said and it must decide for the whole thing at once, namely political integration or one does not go in. Anything else would be a cheat to our friends in the Common Market. It means one Government one Parliament, one law and harmonisation. I have been long enough at the Council of Europe in the past to know what is meant by harmonisation. Sometimes it is called "unification" and sometimes "harmonisation", but it always means the same thing.
Two things follow from what I have said. The first is that the people of this country must be told frankly and without equivocation so that they know precisely what they are being asked to do. The second is to ask the question: would this work? We cannot make comparisons between this situation and the United States or some other place. There are differences of language, of history and of culture. There are significant differences in parties and political organisations. In Europe religion enters into politics to a degree that is almost unthinkable here. These are all practical difficulties, tellingly referred to by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary in 1959, as to why one could not make the thing work. A period of eleven years has not changed the picture. Such a move would not work. It is an escapist's dream. Our Empire has contracted, our rôle in the world has grown less.
Therefore, some people say let us have a little legerdemain, a little conjuring, and we shall get it back. If we go in we will be a great power again or we can at least share in being a great power. But the world does not work like that. One

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cannot take up a sort of Adriatic Republic attitude on the world stage.
An Hon. Member: What is the alternative?
Mr. Bell: I am asked for an alternative. I have not time to develop one. I do not see anything new in the world growing up around us as does my right hon. Friend. Britain has always been small. We have always been a David among the Goliaths. But those who spoke for the nation in the past were not so defeatist and broken-winded, as some of those who speak for us now. We were great-hearted. We were invincible because we could not be beaten. And we were always totally and completely outnumbered. I do not see the need to propose an alternative course.
I will conclude by suggesting that if we can get out of this habit of applying for membership of some community, which is in itself an escapist operation we shall be able to turn our full attention to the solution of our problems. We might find that we need no props from outside and that the lack of confidence which underlies the whole business would disappear. In my experience it is not the public that wants this. It is not even backbench Members of Parliament. Euromania is typically a disease of leading politicians, for whom the thought of moving awkward economic decisions away from universal adult suffrage to institutions in Brussels, which are well insulated from democratic pressures, is understandably attractive.
The proponents of joining are the technocrats of politics, who have lost faith and, perhaps, interest in the possibility of persuading a mass electorate not to eat the seed corn. Because I have not lost faith or interest I cannot support this policy. However, in final explanation, I should say that if there is a vote tomorrow—I hope that there will not be one—I shall not take part in it, because it would give the wrong reflection of the strength of opposition in this House to the policy of signing the Treaty of Rome. To avoid that misleading impression, I shall absent myself from that vote.
7.40 p.m.
Mr. Austen Albu: The hon. and learned Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell) has, not for the first time, expressed his views
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about the proposal that we should join the Community, but he has not added anything new to what we knew of his views before.
The hon. and learned Gentleman quoted his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary in 1959, implying that he had changed his views.
Mr. Ronald Bell: No.
Mr. Albu: It was about that time that I changed mine, after reading an extremely interesting book on the Community by M. Deniau, then an official of the Community and now its chief negotiator, dealing with the question to which the hon. and learned Gentleman referred, namely, whether the Community would advance towards greater unity step by step. When I realised the extremely pragmatic nature, whatever the constitutional form of the Treaty, the step-by-step nature of the Treaty, by which no major step could be taken without the agreement of the Council of Ministers, I realised that my anxieties and fears about Continental constitutionalism were unfounded, and I became a strong advocate of our entry.
There have been a number of speeches on the general argument for and against entry. I do not propose to make another. I have spoken those arguments before and my views are quite well known.
Since we last debated the subject there have been, in my opinion, two new features, but both very important: first, the start of the new and more hopeful round of negotiations; and, secondly, the publication of the Werner Report.
I thought that the Werner Report would be the great bogyman of the anti-Marketeers in this debate. But, strangely, it has hardly been used. The Report has been mentioned, but the great attack on the Report, or at least on our proposal to enter the Community, because of the Report, which has been launched in some sections of the Press, has not been launched tonight, not even by my right hon. Friend the Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore). It is to the Werner Report, which is important, that I shall devote most of my speech.
On the whole, I find acceptable the way that the Government are going about the negotiations and also the way, after a somewhat shaky start, that the right hon.

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and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon) has been dealing with the House.
There is a large body—not in this House, because most opinions here are already made up—outside which is unconvinced. I do not think that there is a majority necessarily opposed to entry; on the contrary, I believe that the nation is coming round again more in favour of entry. I suspect that those opposed to entry, particularly in this House, are on the defensive; but either way, in favour or against, Members in this House are mostly committed.
Those against are against on principle. They are absolutely and firmly committed against entry and will, therefore, find any argument, economic or political, with which to attack the proposal. I hope that all who are in favour of entry can still reserve their judgment until the final terms are known.—[Interruption.] Nobody has taken a different position. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to make anything of it, I can tell him that this is the attitude which I took in the election and put into my own election manfesto. All my constituents know that I am strongly in favour in principle of entry into the Common Market.
Most economic arguments are influenced by political considerations. I know few economists are who not more passionate politicians than politicians themselves. Otherwise, it would be difficult to understand how two research workers at the National Institute of Economic and Social Affairs could come to the opposite conclusions to that to which one would expect their figures to lead on the effect of the formation of the Community on the economic growth of its members. They have had a very bad Press, because every economic commentator, whatever his view, has pointed out how wrong their conclusions were. No sensible person has suggested that our entry would be the cure to all our economic ills. Nevertheless, some of us are justified in believing that it provides a chance for faster economic growth.
I turn now to the Werner Report, because it is on that which I wish to concentrate. I am in favour of more flexible exchange rates. If in the near future—before we obtain entry—the Community were to abolish the possibility of intra-Community changes in exchange
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rates, entry would be impossible. But there is no sign that this will happen. I think that it is extremely unlikely, after a year in which two of the major member countries have changed their rates—one up and one down. Although the Council of Ministers has accepted the Werner Report in principle, there is no sign of it being carried out in practice in the immediate future. If it were, if that were to be a condition of entry, I should have to say "No". But it seems very unlikely—in fact impossible—that any decision will be attempted before our entry, and then the conditions and timing of movement towards common economic policies and a common currency will be within our control. Some opponents of our entry speak as if there were some entity called "The Community". The hon. and learned Member for Buckinghamshire, South referred to "The Community." But "The Community" is only the conglomerate voice of its members and it will remain so for many years. The idea that if we were inside the Community we might be imprisoned in Community policy is the most absolute nonsense.
Sir Harmar Nichols rose—
Mr. Albu: The hon. Gentleman has interrupted every hon. Member who has spoken, not once with an intelligent interruption.
I support Signor Carli's proposals of slowly moving parities during the transitional period. On the last occasion on which I spoke on this subject, I suggested that this was possibly a way by which we could deal with some of our balance-of-payments problems on entry.
One of the main arguments against fixed parities—I emphasise again that I am not in favour of fixed parities—by which the Werner Report is used as a bogey is that it would reduce countries with slow growth to the level of the poorer regions of the European countries. Professor Pearce in The Times Business News argues that if these regions could set their own exchange rates—for instance, Wales, Southern Italy or Scotland—they could attract investment and raise employment.
My experience, and all the evidence I have seen, is that much more active and positive Government action is required to achieve a reversal of the flow of employment than merely an adjustment of

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exchange rates. I will not go into the details. The previous Government made some attempts to deal with that problem by similar methods, but they were not entirely successful. In any case, the results were minimal compared with some of the other policies which we adopted at that time to deal with regions of high unemployment in this country.
Moreover, the idea that we can keep our economy growing by successive major devaluations is nonsense. This is not the same as a floating exchange rate or necessary changes from time to time. Unless we increase our productivity to match that of our competitors the effect of frequent major changes would be temporary and, under present conditions, would be bound to be inflationary.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Stepney referred to the loss of economic sovereignty. The word "sovereignty", whether economic or political, always rouses emotion. There is nothing wrong with that. But what is the purpose of economic sovereignty? Surely its purpose is to achieve greater economic strength and growth. Is anybody going to argue that the policies pursued by this country during the last 10 or 15 years have been better than the policies pursued by the countries of the Community? The answer is certainly not if we judge by results, because the fact is that they have had a much higher rate of growth than we have. Why should we be frightened of joining a Community which has succeeded in having higher rates of growth than we have had?
But, in any case, we do not lose our sovereignty. We contribute our economic soevereignty to theirs in making policies of joint action and co-operation which, as my right hon. Friend said, will help us to get greater wealth and a higher standard of living. The truth is that today—and it is the same in almost every country—the problem of growth is not one for economists but for psychologists, and those who argue that the psychological effect of entry will help growth are just as likely to be right as those economists who, with their unproven hypotheses, say the opposite.
It would be silly to adopt a negative attitude to the Werner proposals. We have long complained of the restraints on our economy because of the rôle of sterling as a reserve currency under
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modern conditions. Although there would be great difficulty in giving up this rôle, it would be foolish and unduly nostalgic—I am sure that the hon. and learned Member for Buckinghamshire, South will feel this nostalgia, but it does not affect me—not to look at any proposal which enabled the pound to be subsumed in a currency covering a much larger economic unit.
I suspect that the real reason for the opposition to the Werner proposals from the hard-line opponents to our entry is that they will inevitably lead to greater political unification, and certainly a more federal system. I agree that they will, when they come, but this idea does not frighten me. It will take many years, which is another reason why the Werner proposals are unlikely to be adopted in the near future. I believe that they cannot be adopted without moving towards the formation of something like a federal system at a much faster rate than there is any sign that members of the Community are willing to go at the present time. So it is not likely that we shall rapidly find ourselves in a federal system although both those things will happen eventually. The Werner proposals will be adopted in the end, and we shall be forced—I hope willingly forced—to go into a system which is more federal and in which there is greater democratic control.
I believe that public opinion is now moving back again in support of our entry. I am against the idea of a referendum, but it would be impossible for the Government to take us into the Common Market if our constituents were overwhelmingly and strongly opposed to what was being done. It seems to me that it is for the Government to make clear the balance of advantages, and perhaps here I might give them another word of advice. The Government would be well-advised not to adopt too divisive policies, particularly economic ones, during the next year if they want to get the willing support of the people of all parties to our entry.
I suggest, too, that our friends in the Community can help. They can make reasonable concessions to us. They can accept our reasonable proposals, and they can put their acceptance in a reasonable and friendly way. The British people would like to know—what I believe is the fact, although it could be more openly

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and publicly expressed in Europe than has been the case so far—not only that Britain is wanted in the Community but that the people of the Community believe that Britain has a real rôle to play in Europe.
The British people do not want to be loved, but they do want to feel that we are going in not on an application which is necessary because we are in some difficulty—which is not true—but because of the part that we shall play in building a Europe which will give all our people greater wealth and greater happiness in the future.
7.55 p.m.
Mr. Norman St. John-Stevas: I should first like to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin (Mr. Hicks) on his excellent maiden speech and on the skill with which he related his constituency affairs to the general issue. Very often hon. Members tend to take off on flights of rather stratospheric oratory and forget the grass roots, but my hon. Friend reminded us of the regional factors involved, particularly the situation facing the fishing ndustry, and I am sure that he voiced the anxieties of my hon. Members on that score.
The right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) was slightly annoyed with me because I said that he spoke with modified rapture. I take back the "modified". When I uttered it I had not heard his peroration. Having heard it, I can say that his raptures are quite unimpaired. Furthermore, I had not heard some of the speeches from the benches behind the right hon. Gentleman, and I realise now why he had to tread carefully in his opening remarks.
The right hon. Gentleman brought down on his head the wrath of his right hon. Friend the Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore). The right hon. Member for Cheetham first offended because he made a joke about the parity of sterling. I thought that it was a very good joke, but he was, nevertheless, rebuked for it. It is dangerous to make jokes in politics.
Nowadays, it is safer to be a corespondent than a wit.
The other matter about which he was rather taken for a ride by his right hon. Friend was the rôle of sterling as a reserve currency. As I understood the right hon.
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Member for Cheetham, he was not suggesting as his right hon. Friend was, that it should be made a matter for negotiation. All he was saying was that this should be a matter on which the Government should have some view as a background to the negotiations—and I think that that is sensible and sane. On the other hand, to inject the question of sterling into the negotiations would be an act of sabotage which would not be helpful to anyone who wanted the negotiations to succeed.
This is an important debate although, in a sense, it is a curtain-raiser. It is a dress-rehearsal for the final performance which is likely to take place before the end of the parliamentary year, when Parliament will be called upon to take an historic decision which will affect the lives of everyone in the country and the lives of generations yet to come. It is as grave a decision as any that has been taken in the course of our long history, and it is right, therefore, to have this debate and to have other debates in the House on this momentous topic.
After all, we in Britain enjoy the benefits of Government by discussion, and the public mind needs to be clarified on this issue. The public have a right to be consulted on it. The question arises, how are they to be consulted? Not, I think, by snap answers to loaded questions, nor by the over-simplification of a referendum, nor even by a Government opinion poll, which is what has been suggested by the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn). Free enterprise polls are bad enough. A nationalised poll would be even worse.
What we need—and what I think the debate is contributing to—is a patient and honest sifting-out of the arguments for and against and of all the issues involved. This must be done both inside and outside this House. It has to be done through all the media of communications—newspapers, television, the wireless and, above all, in Parliament. It is in Parliament where the ultimate decision will be taken, and it is upon Parliament that the duty to take the decision lies. Under our constitution it cannot be taken by anyone else. It must be taken here. This House is still the centre of our national life.
I wish briefly to make my position clear. I give full and unreserved support to the Government's application to join

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the Community, just as I have supported the previous applications. Right or wrong, my position has at any rate been consistent. I have been a member of the European Movement since 1947, and my faith in it and in the future of the union of Europe has never wavered. Others have moved, and I do not blame them for that. The Leader of the Opposition has moved on this issue. He came late to Europeanism, but I think that his European attitude is genuine and lasting. People do a disservice to the right hon. Gentleman when they suggest that for tactical, political reasons he will shift his position. There is no sign in anything that he has said that he will do so. The right hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore) has moved the other way, which I regret, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) has, unfortunately, moved his position. They are entitled to do so, but we are entitled to recall that it is less than three years ago that we went with them through the same Lobby in support of this application to join the European Economic Community, an application which now, apparently, they feel will prove disastrous to the whole future of the nation.
The issues involved are complicated and profound. They are issues not only of politics and finance but also questions of defence. We are discussing no less than the union of Europe and whether the whole project will move forward or founder. The fate of the Community as well as ourselves is bound up with these negotiations. Are we to give the project a new impetus of life, or will it founder, as these schemes have in the past, going right back to the time of the grand design of King Henry IV of France, and his Minister Sully. It would be unforgivable to fall below the level of events and to substitute rhetoric for argument, or polemic for reason.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, in a speech at the weekend which has been widely reported, suggested that there is perhaps a conspiracy abroad to keep the facts from the British people and that the argument is being kept at a trivial level, the level of food prices and the balance of payments. I hope he will forgive me if I say that I feel that he has confused triviality with technicality. These
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are technical, not trivial, issues of vital importance to our future. The subject of the negotiations at Brussels is the economic consequences for Britain of joining the Community. The contribution to the Common Fund, for example—
Mr. J. Enoch Powell: With respect, I put it to my hon. Friend that what is being negotiated is the transition to membership of the Community. Negotiation is not taking place about the content of the Community or consequentially about the consequences of belonging to it.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I will accept that statement of my right hon. Friend for the purpose of the argument but, even if it is true, the negotiations are not about something trivial. What happens in the transitional period is of the most vital importance to us because our whole economic prosperity could be at risk if the wrong decisions are made. I do not count as trivial the discussions about the relationship of New Zealand to the Community and the safeguards which will be taken to protect New Zealand's interests. I certainly do not consider the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement, over which negotiation is going on, as a triviality. On that agreement depends the future prosperity of many millions of poor people within the Commonwealth. Trivial to some, perhaps, but, as the hon. Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd) said, life or death to others. That is why the British Government are negotiating so painstakingly, thoroughly and carefully at Brussels.
I congratulate the chief negotiator, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, on the skill with which he is conducting the negotiations. They are most difficult negotiations, and he has shown himself to be both a fervent and dedicated European and a tenacious defender of British interests. As a result, he enjoys the confidence of many people on the Continent, in France and Germany, who are engaged in or following the negotiations, and has retained the confidence of his fellow-countrymen at home.
I do not wish to go into the details of the arguments about the negotiations. All I say to members of the Commission at Brussels and the negotiators is that we

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are not in these negotiations asking for any special privileges, much less are we attacking the institutions that have been so carefully built up. What we ask for, and what we must have, is a fair deal, and that concept of fairness was stressed by my right hon. Friend in his opening remarks. We ask no more and no less than others have had before us; a reasonable and adequate transitional period, and a guarantee that our contributions to the Common Fund and our withdrawals from it shall be equitable.
We cannot forecast the future. After all, the Treasury, to whom I mean no disrespect, has difficulty in forecasting six months ahead. How can we expect our negotiators to forecast for six, eight or ten years ahead? If the most pessimistic forecasts are fulfilled—and I do not believe that they will be—it is reasonable to require that there should be a safeguard. There should be provision for a review, and I understand from the remarks of my right hon. Friend that that is what he is asking for in Brussels. He was supported on this by my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys). Article 108 of the Treaty of Rome provides precisely for this situation. My right hon. Friend is asking that it should be particularised.
I turn from the economic to the political issue, which is of vital importance. I accept straight away that, while the letter of the Treaty of Rome is economic, its spirit is political. That is the simple truth. There is no plot to conceal that from anyone and, if there were, it would not succeed. The Prime Minister has been quite clear on this all along. If people have been deceived about his attitude, they have only themselves to blame. He made that attitude quite clear in the Godkin Lectures at Harvard in 1967. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster was equally clear in his speech in Blackpool and in the House today. But to say that the issues are political is not to say that we have to make a choice between independence and federation. That simply is not true.
In this context, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South West has spelled out his view with his customary logic and clarity. His thesis, I understand is that there can be no European economy, no European world power,
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save at the cost of the European countries ceasing to exist as nations. The price paid for this rôle must be a loss of national identity and a merging into the European federation, so we have to choose between a national identity and a European one.
I do not deny, that at some time in the future, that may be—one cannot possibly rule it out—the choice with which we are presented, but I am equally clear that there is not the slightest sign that this is the choice with which we are being presented today. If we are looking at the facts, as opposed to the theory, we get a completely different picture.
The European nations, unfortunately, are not much nearer political union to-day than they were 20 years ago. The economic success of the Common Market has been matched by a political failure, or a political stalemate. So the choice cannot be one of going into a federation, because a federation does not exist.
However, there is a choice here of momentous importance—but a rather different one. The choice is this: are we going to take part in the shaping of an as yet inchoate form of political union and influence the form that that is going to take in future, or are we going to stand aside and let it take shape without our influence? That is the choice, and it is an extremely important one for the future of ourselves and the Community.
If we believe in Great Britain—by that I mean not an attitude of mind which wants to lord it over people but one which wants to influence world society towards certain goals—there can be no doubt that we must make the first choice. On the other hand, if we believe in "Little England", the tight isolationist island, then I think that we should make the second choice.
Mr. Roger Moate: Oh!
Mr. St. John-Stevas: My hon. Friend may not agree with me; I am only giving my views and my analysis of the situation.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West in his recent speech in Northern Ireland made some rather astringent remarks on the subject. He referred to "subsidising Continental peasants" through the common agricultural policy. I would ask him tonight, does he not see why we are being called

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upon to do so? It is because the peasants of the Six, through their representatives, got together a decade ago to solve their problems in a certain way, and the yeomen of England simply were not there to make their voices heard.
We are now faced with an exactly parallel position in the political field. If we do not join the Community now and attempt to tailor the political policy in accordance with our views and our interests, in a few years we shall be faced with an exactly similar position politically. There is a parallel between those two situations.
Today we have to accept the Common agricultural policy. That is a condition of the negotiations. There is nothing startling about that. If we tried to tamper with the agricultural structure, the negotiations would founder at once. But it is not something which will be unchanged for ever. It is, in fact, changing at this moment.
In the speech to which I referred, my right hon. Friend mentioned the "diminishing peasant element in the countries of the Six." I must say, that is a pretty awful phrase. It is bad enough to be an element, let alone a peasant element, let alone a diminishing element. But the point of the phrase is the word "diminishing"—dwindling. As I know, my right hon. Friend chooses every word carefully. He himself has indicated what my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy spelled out this afternoon—that the contributions from the Central Fund to agriculture are likely in future to diminish rather than to increase and certainly will not remain the same.
The other argument which has been used—it is a separate but connected argument—is that we shall somehow lose our national identity within the Common Market. Yet that is patently false also. It is contrary to facts. One is entitled to ask, are the French any less French because they are members of the Common Market? I do not wish to prejudice the result of the negotiations, but it seems to me that they are more French than ever. This is true of the other members of the Community.
The Werner Plan has flitted into our discussions like the ghost in the machine, but what has happened to it is extremely
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important for those discussions, since the fate of the plan demolishes the view of those who say that there will be a group of anonymous bureaucrats imposing their will on nation States. The Community simply does not operate like that. It operates by consensus, by agreement, and if there is any plan which goes against the national interest of one of the parties, that party has a power of veto, either in theory or in practice. Accordingly the plan has to be modified or it vanishes—and that is what has happened to the Werner Plan. This is of great significance because it is looking at what happens and not at what people say will happen.
Again, there is a false deduction from a faulty premise—an identification of national character with certain political and Government arrangements. Those arrangements change, but the national character abides. It is perhaps the most durable thing in a political scene which is always changing. Have the Scots, for example, lost their national identity after nearly 300 years of the closest union with the English? Have the Irish, who have been associated with us for even longer, or the Welsh, who have been associated longest of all?
Is it not, therefore, absurd to suggest, given the rather shaky and provisional nature of the union of Europe, that, if we enter, our national identity will suddenly dissolve? To allege that is not to clarify the argument or the issues; it is rather to cloud them with the forces of passion and prejudice.
My belief is that the antithesis between patriotism and Europeanism is false and that it is our task to synthesise the two. It was the Prime Minister himself who said in those lectures at Harvard that
"many today are feeling and thinking not only, 'I am British or French or German,' but also, 'I am a European.'".
That is the truth of the situation. We are both British and Europeans, and we betray some part of our heritage if we attempt to deny one or other of them.
It is true, of course, that we are privileged citizens of the best country in the world. No one is debating that. But we are also part of a wider civilisation, which, with all its faults and shortcomings, is the finest, the most precious, that the world has yet seen.
8.20 p.m.
Mr. John Mendelson: I have always accepted the attachment of the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) to the idea of the United Kingdom joining the E.E.C. He has frequently advanced cultural, political and economic reasons why, in his view, we should join.
I join him in welcoming this opportunity to discuss this important subject and to express an opinion while there is still time, for this is probably the last occasion on which this House will have a chance to influence the course of the negotiations.
The main burden on the Government is the provision of more information to the House before this debate concludes. I regret the absence not only of the Minister but of my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever), who had a number of highly controversial remarks to make. It would have been advantageous had they stayed for the whole debate. As I have a number of things to say against them, I have no choice but to attack them in their absence. I hope that they will both forgive me.
We must pay considerable attention to what has so far emerged from the negotiations—I will come to the question of foreign policy later—because we have an obligation to make that our starting point. There are neither surprises nor secrets left in the negotiations and it is now a completely artificial stance for any leader of any party to suggest that we cannot know the outcome of the negotiations.
We are now in a position to make up our minds as a result of the negotiations so far, and I am glad that most hon. Members who have contributed to this debate have referred to what is now already firmly established. This was pointed out in the earlier debate when the negotiations began. At that time a number of hon. Members said that while they approved the attempt to negotiate, they expected the Government to try to obtain changes in the actual arrangements which had so far been reached by the Six.
Bearing that in mind, we see that this is the first point of disadvantage from which Her Majesty's Government began
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to negotiate because the Six which now form not Europe—because that terminology is wholly misleading—but one corner of the Continent of Europe, or one particular grouping of Powers leaving out the majority of the people of Europe, went to a great deal of trouble and spent four-and-a-half years carefully adjusting to each other's interests. They are not prepared to do that for us. The hon. Member for Chelmsford has no right to appear in the mantle of the great European when he is referring to only one small part of Europe.
There may be historical reasons why the Six have reached this position. I appreciate that people like the hon. Member for Chelmsford who have always favoured our entry into the E.E.C. will say that the attitude of the Six has arisen partly because of our fault and partly because we missed an earlier opportunity. Although I understand that view. I do not adhere to it. It is simply realistic to accept that the Six are not prepared to spend another four-and-a-half years carefully adjusting to the interests of the people of the United Kingdom, and they have made that clear.
The Six have said not only that the common agricultural policy is sacred and must be accepted in toto—this is the common front which the Minister is facing in the negotiations—but that the United Kingdom must equally accept all the subsequent decisions that have been taken by them since they signed the Treaty of Rome.
In view of the situation that has emerged for this country, I cannot understand why people here should talk about the generality of the isues involved in our entry rather than concentrate entirely on the realities which the Government face. Because I wish to dwell on the realities of the situation, I will not spend time discussing the vast schemes of cultural relations and future arrangements which have been mentioned, or the new glittering rôle which the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) sees Britain playing in foreign and international affairs after many years membership of the Community.
There will, no doubt, be occasions on which those matters can be discussed. Our duty now is to concentrate on the hard facts of the negotiations and on the realities of the situation. We must accept,

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for example, that the common agricultural policy is sacred, that the Treaty of Rome is sacred and that we shall have to adhere to the subsequent decisions that the Six have taken in that connection. I wish to drive home the fact that the Six formalised this in the discussions which they had prior to the negotiations opening.
What are the consequences of all this for us? To begin with, the fact that the people of Britain will have to make certain financial contributions is now established. The only possible point of argument can arise on two points: first, how long will the transitional period be until the full rigours of these conditions must be met by this country, and, secondly, what hopes are there—I say "hopes" and not "rights"—that in future the Six will themselves wish to pay less attention to agriculture and particularly to the way in which agriculture is now being financed within the Community?
This can be only a hope, because the Minister was careful to point out that he is now arguing for a special reassurance. This undoubtedly means that the Government are convinced that it is highly likely that the policy which they would regard as desirable for Britain will not be followed. If that were not the case they would not be so keen to get this special reassurance.
Hon. Members who have been urging this fact on the House are doing a service because, whatever view one takes about the desirability or otherwise of our joining the Community, we in the House of Commons have a duty, particularly at this stage, to press the interests of the British people in these negotiations. For this reason I cannot understand why any hon. Member should be keen to gloss over the hard facts of the situation.
The Minister's anxieties are understandable. This is particularly so when one considers the way in which the Community is spending the large sums of money it is collecting; and we shall be asked to be one of the chief contributors to the common agricultural policy.
In November last the Commission in Brussels published an official report in which it said that in the 12 months from November, 1969 to November, 1970 it had spent 300 million dollars for the
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single purpose of destroying perfectly good butter because of a glut of that commodity in the European Economic Community. It gave the reasons, and added, in effect: "We are now announcing that in the next 12 months, from November, 1970 to November, 1971, we shall spend a further 300 million dollars for exactly the same purpose". That means two periods of expenditure of 300 million dollars. Moreover, the Commission did not add that it intended to abandon that policy.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster knows this full well. That is why he wants a reassurance. Any hon. Member who has been travelling around Europe taking an interest in these matters knows that this is not something which the Commission has invented because it wants to pursue a baroque and bizarre economic policy. It is a policy on which, certainly, the French insisted. And the supporters of Herr Strauss in Bavaria insist on a policy which may take as much from the Community.
It is not only French interests that are involved. It has been quite unfair to make France the only bogyman in these negotiations. When the present Prime Minister was in charge of negotiations, as Lord Privy Seal, M. Pisani, the French negotiator, used to tell journalists: "I am always made the bogyman, but when I am to meet Mr. Heath on a Friday morning I have four agriculture Ministers from other countries of the Six telling me privately in my hotel the night before, "Make sure tomorrow morning that you are tough with the British'". It is a myth, and always has been a myth, to regard France as the only bogyman.
All this means that there will be certainly between £300 million and £500 million a year as a contribution for a good long time. I do not here accept the extreme figures at the other end of the scale in the White Paper published by my right hon. Friend when he was Prime Minister.
We are asked to agree that the Government should not make any attempt to change the Community's basic economic scheme—and this is the crux of the matter; that we have no right to say, first of all, to the Six, "We do not believe that you are adjusting to the interests of the British people as you have

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adjusted the economic interests of the original Six to each other if you refuse to reopen discussions on the original Treaty and on your subsequent decisions." I would apply that as the very first test.
Here, unfortunately, we come to the conspiracy of the two Front Benches; to the "Mafia" of the two—one the Government in office and the other the Government in exile. They work closely together, as we see on many occasions. Wherever they are, they always remain in Government on this matter.
I say advisedly that if ever an evasive speech, brilliantly delivered, were made in this House it was made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Cheetham this afternoon. He is a master, when he wants to be, of not dealing with any of the hard problems. He gave us brilliant aphorisms, and the more he was interrupted by some of my hon. Friends below the Gangway the more he enjoyed himself, because the more he could make brilliant remarks and evade the real issue. That is one of our difficulties.
I want to warn those who are so keenly in favour of recommending that we should join the Community that nothing could be more dangerous, and I say this in all seriousness, than that a decision should somehow be brought about that the people of the United Kingdom, people of great independence of mind and attitude, are taken into the Community, and then for hundreds of thousands to believe that they have been tricked into it without knowing what they were being invited to do. That would be no service to the working of the Community, and on that we shall probably be able to reach general agreement.
The answer is to be much more open with the people about what they are asked to do. There is no reason why all this should not be spelt out now. There is no diplomatic advantage. The limits are drawn. It is quite clear what the Government can achieve from now on. That is the view of 110 Labour Members, who have therefore this week for this debate put down the following Motion:
"That this House believes that entry into the European Common Market on the terms so far envisaged would be against the interests of this country."
It is the simple truth.
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As the negotiations have proceeded, the right hon. and learned Gentleman has found, as he has already admitted, that he has no hope of reopening the essential arrangements. He says that that is simple realism. In order to justify himself and to avoid arguments for justifying his position, as if it were self-evident why the Government do not make any attempt to reopen the discussions on the original Treaty of Rome, so that the Community does for Britain what was done for the original Six, he quotes a statement by my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. Harold Wilson), or by someone else who was in office in the past.
It is not self-evident that that justifies his attitude. It may prove that both the right hon. and learned Gentleman and my right hon. Friend have been equally wrong in adopting this attitude. They have to give arguments if they want to justify it. Quoting each other does no good. Among professionals it is easy to quote from each other, thereby avoiding having to deploy arguments. That is the crux of the debate to which the Government must address themselves.
I turn briefly to the subject of foreign affairs. A great deal concerning foreign policy is involved. The hon. Member for Inverness (Mr. Russell Johnston) is the sole and lonely representative of the great Liberal Party which is so keen on our entry into Europe. He has been sitting in his miserable loneliness all this afternoon with nobody to talk to. That is why I muttered to him occasionally—I did not want him to feel lonely and at least he should have someone muttering to him, even though it was not a fellow member of the Liberal Party. He should have appreciated it. He did not pay me back very well for my kindliness and from now on I shall sit behind him in silence. He introduced, although not very effectively, the problem of foreign policy.
There are grave problems. It is extraordinary that, in what one would have expected to be a probing speech by the opening batsman for the Labour Party, my right hon. Friend the Member for Cheetham made no searching references to what is in many ways the main foreign defence policy plan of the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, whose absence on important business elsewhere

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we understand, an absence we none the less regret on this occasion, namely, the proposal for a new joint Anglo-French nuclear command.
The Prime Minister is on record as having said in the Godkin lectures in the United States when he was Leader of the Opposition that he thought that a development in that direction was desirable. There are serious implications in what the right hon. Member for Streatham said, and in a debate of this kind it would have been appropriate for the spokesman of the Labour Party to ask probing questions, even though he did not have, as I have, the relative freedom of the back benches to make as many assertions as I intend to make.
This is a serious aspect of the matter. Many of my hon. Friends and I are afraid that many people who wish for closer political union and for a new defence organisation based on the Common Market countries do not want to add to wider unity in Europe but want to create further divisions in Europe. What is behind the argument for a third great Power? What is the point of having this third great Power which the right hon. Member for Streatham is always honest enough to admit has no meaning and no existence unless it is based on joint defence policy? He has regularly argued this openly at the Council of Europe, as many of my colleagues have reported to me over a number of years. He goes much further there than anything he says here, because there he is not under the pressure of time, as he is in the House of Commons.
This policy of the third nuclear command is a policy which my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, to his honour, has always consistently opposed. He has warned the country against it. He did so, prominently, immediately after the present Prime Minister made his speeches in the United States of America. There was no reference to that in the opening speech of my right hon. Friend.
These are matters, surely, of the greatest importance. The people of this country are entitled to be told about them before they agree to enter the Common Market. The right hon. Member for Streatham and the Prime Minister are right when they say that in the longer term there must be such a joint defence
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organisation or the whole political argument for joining the Common Market falls to the ground. If we are to join merely to have another Council of Europe, from what I hear from some of my hon. Friends, we do not have to join the Common Market to have that sort of experience of joint discussions. We can meet in a more attractive city, perhaps, than even Strasbourg. We might meet in Paris, for instance. There is a lot to be said for that. But that is neither what the Prime Minister nor the right hon. Member for Streatham has in mind.
There are grave dangers involved, and if one wants to approve of those dangers one ought to say so. The danger is that at a time when the influence of the United Kingdom, which is still considerable, ought to be used for all schemes of détente and in every possible way for working in and with the United Nations to create less division and more unity, understanding and agreement, we might be taking quite the wrong step in encouraging the view of those among the Six who want a third nuclear command.
That brings me to internationalism. Surely we have heard enough of these shoddy, silly, schoolboy attacks on those of my hon. Friends who are opposed to this precise proposal. To my great surprise, my right hon. Friend, whose intellectual calibre I have always rated to be high, indulged in some of that this afternoon. It was wholly unworthy of him. There was all this talk about the fact that he could not understand how people who are interested in internationalism are so worried about giving up parity, which is the pride of every Englishman. If that were not sneering at their attitude, I do not know what is.
Mr. Harold Lever: My hon. Friend must not say that. I specifically made the point that I recognised the sincerity and the basis for anxiety on the part of my hon. and right hon. Friends, who, in the main, share the same world and social outlook that I have.
Mr. Mendelson: My right hon. Friend must read his speech tomorrow and see what he said on the point he made about sincerity. A contemporary of Voltaire used to describe in one of his letters how Voltaire punctured the pride of a cardinal by telling three stories against the Church and then saying that he believed that the

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Cardinal was a sincere Christian. That was the attitude adopted by my right hon. Friend this afternoon. He sneered at us for many minutes, and then told us that we were sincere.
These are shoddy, silly attacks on the international credo of people who have, for many years, stood in the Socialist movement and have done much more than some of the new-found adherents of my right hon. Friend, some of the new internationalists on the other side who are now the adherents of the European idea.
My hon. Friends have a good record on this, going back many years, and they do not need to be told what true internationalism is. Let us have done with this nonsense. What is involved is quite different. We are not discussing world government or general principles of internationalism, or the United Nations. We are discussing the European Economic Community composed of the Six countries. I have just described the consequences of its economic policy for the people of this country.
It would be completely avoiding the duty of Members of this House if we were to embrace everybody and everything because we have international ideals, but not to concentrate on the hard facts of life concerning the proposals. Moreover, there are great fears among some of those who oppose our entry into the Common Market about foreign affairs and defence. We see the role of this country at present as one in which it is perfectly entitled to say, "We are looking at the possible results of these negotiations." We cannot recommend to the people acceptance of the heavy burdens on our balance of payments and the increased cost of living which are inevitable and which the Chancellor of the Duchy tried to evade today when he replied to an intervention of mine. We are entitled to tell the E.E.C. countries that, if they feel that they cannot pay the same attention to the economic interests of our people as they pay to each other's, we cannot go into the Market on those terms.
This country has many opportunities to play its part in advancing international relations. Indeed, the United Kingdom has been much more helpful to the Ostpolitik pursued by the West German
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Chancellor than any member of the Common Market. That was especially so when we were in office, though I am glad to say that we have also been helpful under the new Administration. It is not necessary to be a member of the E.E.C. in order to support the foreign policy of détente with the Eastern European countries.
Both Front Benches have the bounden duty to tell us the facts and to find ways and means of discovering how the people feel about them. In the end, if the Government decide that they can somehow manufacture a majority in this House which is not clearly backed by a large majority of the people, they will have made a disastrous mistake which generations to come will have cause to regret.
8.47 p.m.
Mr. William Shelton: I am fortunate to be called to make my maiden speech in this debate. It is a debate of very great importance, not only in this House but in the country.
I want first to refer to my predecessor, who represented the constituency for some six years, Mrs. Margaret McKay. All who knew her in that time, as I did, recognised the sincerity and integrity of her views about the Middle East, though many did not agree with them. I should also mention her predecessor, a very good friend of mine, who I am delighted to see back in this House as my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Dr. Glyn). He represented the Clapham constituency for five years, and his name is still remembered with affection and respect among my constituents.
I began by saying how glad I was to have the opportunity to intervene in this debate. My reason for saying it is that, over the last few months, I have found to my great interest an increasing awareness of the Common Market issue. I have had a steadily growing postbag about it. In fact, I received one letter the other day from which I want to read a couple of lines. It was the last letter to arrive by normal means, and the writer says:
"There is one major point on which I have considerable reservations and that is joining the Common Market. At the Election, I asked one of your canvassers about this and he said that your attitude would depend on the terms of the negotiation. The year 1971 has now

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dawned and negotiations about the terms are under way. This is likely to be a crunch year."
I was fortunate in the canvasser who replied to that question, because he gave the correct answer.
Like most hon. Members, I am waiting on the terms of the negotiation. But I should add that I hope that they will be successful. I am, however, rather less perturbed about the terms or the results of the negotiation than about a feeling of which I am becoming aware in my constituency, and I think that I should be failing in my duty if I did not mention it tonight.
Undoubtedly, there is great anxiety. I have no way of knowing whether that anxiety is shared by a minority, by the majority or, so to speak, half and half among the constituents whom I have the honour to represent. Perhaps the number is small, but it is nevertheless an anxious number and, in my case, fairly vocal.
I take it that the issues here fall broadly into three groups, and I attach labels to them in this way. First, there is the question of stability in terms of war or peace over a long period. Second, there is the question of prosperity for the people of this country. Third, there is the question of sovereignty.
The issue of stability should perhaps, be easy. As many hon. Members have said, we have seen two world wars spring from Europe, and, obviously, a strong and stable Europe must be a force for peace and be of benefit to the people of this country. I believe that Europe would be more likely still to be strong and stable were Great Britain a member of the Economic Community. Nevertheless, as has been said, the European Economic Community has nothing to do with defence, or with foreign policy. It may have in the future, but it has not now. So one is asked whether it might not be better to look towards N.A.T.O. rather than the E.E.C. if we are thinking in terms of long-term stability. I do not know the answer, but that is an objection which has been put to me, and it is an objection with which I had not found it easy to deal.
Now, the question of prosperity, the second hold-all issue, if I may use that term. Again, it seems simple at first sight. The growth rate of the countries of the E.E.C. is greater than that of Great Britain. Therefore, if we join the E.E.C.,
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we, too, shall have a greater growth rate. But, it has been pointed out, some of the member countries of the E.E.C. had a slightly larger growth rate, perhaps, before it was formed. I regard that as a special circumstances, and I do not accept that argument. It was, I believe, due to an unusual period of post-war reconstruction.
But there is another argument under this head. Over a decade or so, this country doubled its home market from about 55 million to about 95 million people through the creation of the E.F.T.A., yet through that decade our growth rate actually fell. So I suspect that the growth rate of this country, and, indeed, the growth rate of most countries in the world, has less to do with the size of the home market and far more to do with one's domestic housekeeping, one's industrial relations, one's tax policies, and, perhaps, even the nature of the Government running the country. I am sure that a larger home market must contribute to a larger growth rate, but, perhaps, only marginally, and it is one's domestic housekeeping which is the overriding factor. I am sure that the argument on that matter will be answered in the next few months, if it has not been answered today when, perhaps, I was out of the Chamber.
I come now to the third hold-all factor, the question of sovereignty. I believe that this is the one which perplexes and causes most anxiety to the people of my constituency. It worries them, I think, even more than any prospective rise in prices. After talking with and listening to very many of them, I must say in their defence, in a sense, that I believe that it does my constituents a disservice—I imagine that this must apply to others, too—to say that their opposition is based only on the question of prices. It is not, though this is perhaps a factor in it.
I can only speak tonight for myself and those who live in my constituency. Their deep uneasiness springs from the question of sovereignty, which many hon. Members have already explained. I think that my constituents are probably misguided and have least to worry about here. Of course, we cannot withdraw from the Treaty of Rome once we have signed it. That is the bogy which is trotted out when the issue of sovereignty is raised, but as the right hon. Member for Manchester,

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Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) has said, we, in this next year or so, cannot bind the will of future Parliaments.
I am convinced that if, for instance, the European Economic Community starts along the road to federalism, towards a United States of Europe—and I am not arguing whether it would be good or bad—it must take the British Parliament with it, otherwise the vital interests of this country will be overridden, and there is no question that, at some stage, either the progress would stop or this country would withdraw. I do not believe that anyone can envisage a war of secession, with this country being invaded by an army from the Continent to stop us seceding from the Treaty of Rome. I believe that the argument about our being unable to withdraw from the Treaty is unnecessarily worrying to those whom I have the privilege and honour to represent.
In seven or eight minutes I have touched very lightly on some of the matters involved. I have a deep anxiety about the issue, though I have every confidence in my right hon. and learned Friend who is conducting the negotiations. My anxiety concerns the views expressed today, yesterday and last month by those who have talked to me in my constituency. I doubt whether I am unique in this. I very much hope that over the next few months or years, or whatever period may be required before this country signs the Treaty of Rome, I shall be able to carry with me all those whom I represent.
I thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and the House, for having listened to me with such courtesy and patience.
8.58 p.m.
Mr. Bert Oram: It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Clapham (Mr. William Shelton) and to extend to him the congratulations of all who heard him on the excellent way in which he put behind him one of the most important hurdles of a Parliamentary career. He spoke with great effectivenes and fluency, and the House will look forward to hearing his contributions in the future.
The hon. Gentleman will see this debate on Britain and Europe as a single,
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self-contained debate, but those of us who have been privileged to serve for a considerably longer period than he has see it as one in a long series of debates on the issue of whether Britain should join the Common Market of Western Europe. One of the most attractive features of these highly important debates is that on this subject vigorous opinion runs right across party lines. We have had plenty of evidence in the debate so far.
The House has been engaged in this long discussion for 10 years or more, and in that time there have been many changes in the personnel of the House and in the Government and in the attitudes of the major parties. There have also been developments in Europe itself. Through all these changes, it is nevertheless possible to trace at least one continuous thread of truth. This, in my view, is that at no point has it ever been a clear black and white issue. At all stages of its development, it has been a question of weighing up the pros and cons, of weighing the political and economic advantages of joining against the undoubted political and economic disadvantages and trying to assess the result.
There will come a point, of course, and not far off, no doubt, when the final weighing up will have to be done. But at all points in the long discussion, both before the Rome Treaty was signed and since, it has been possible to find very strong arguments in favour of signing and very strong arguments against. There have been fervent advocates of both points of view, but I have always listened with most attention to those who, however fervent their advocacy, have nevertheless admitted that this was a mixed question—a question of swings and roundabouts, of the necessity to weigh up what was likely to be lost on the swings against the gains to be made on the roundabouts. This weighing up is a difficult proposition at any point of time, but when it is a question of weighing it up through time, with changing factors in a vastly complex subject, it makes the exercise still more difficult.
As other hon. Members have done, I quote the case of Germany as an illustration. An argument which weighed heavily with me in times gone by when Dr. Adenauer was the Federal Chanceller and the cold war was at its worst,

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was that it was possible to say—many people believed it, and believe it still—that it was a large part of the function of the Common Market to be a major instrument in the cold war. Now, West Germany has a Chancellor who is very different from Dr. Adenauer. Mr. Brandt's Government are pursuing policies which we on this side most certainly greatly welcome and which are very different from those of Dr. Adenauer's Government. It is no longer true to say that the association of States in Western Europe has opposition to the Soviet world as one of its main purposes.
I make this point not because I want now to develop the foreign policy aspects of the argument but to stress the point that the circumstances and factors in this matter change over time. Moreover, they are capable of being changed. This is why the nature of the negotiations is of great importance. It is why we anxiously seek from the right hon. and learned Gentleman as frequently as possible reports of how the negotiations are going and why we are anxious to know how tough he is with his colleagues in the negotiations.
It is highly important in the situation that Britain occupies at present in relation to the E.E.C. that we should not play easy-to-get, that we should not show an undue fervour for getting in, because by that means we might weaken our bargaining position. By all means negotiate genuinely; by all means negotiate with a view to getting in if the terms are right. But do not show an over-eagerness to get in because, by that means, we weaken our negotiating position.
I suggest three examples of the way in which decisions by the present Conservative Government and Conservative attitudes have placed Britain in a weaker bargaining position in Brussels than she would have been if the negotiations had been conducted by a Labour Government. I refer to the policies on import levies in agriculture, taxation, through the value-added tax, and in relation to the nationalised industries.
It is widely recognised that acceptance of the common agricultural policy and the Community's system of import levies is one of the major changes Britain has to agree to in order to join the Community. It is an important change from
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the system of price support that we have known since the war. But within the general acceptance of the common agricultural policy, there is a great deal of room for manoeuvre, bargaining and negotiation. Therefore, it seems to me to be a weakness in Britain's position that she is now led by a party which, as long ago as 1964, began to legislate in order to abandon the British system of price support in favour of the import levy system. It is a weakness that the negotiations are being conducted by Conservatives in whose election programme the change to import levies was one of the most advertised planks. It was also included in the Queen's Speech.
The system to which we are turning, as is well known, is disadvantageous to the British consumer and to the housewife. I agree that it may be necessary to accept that system to gain a package deal in which there are countervailing advantages in membership of the Common Market in other spheres of policy. But if that is so, we should not advertise our intentions well beforehand to saddle the British consumer with a disadvantageous system, irrespective of whether there is anything to be gained as a result of a suitably negotiated entry agreement.
Secondly, I turn to the question of taxation where a similar story is to be told. Conformity with the value-added tax may no doubt be necessary if Britain is to go along with the harmonisation policy in taxation which has been taking place in the Common Market. Again from the point of view of the increased cost of living which faces the British housewife and the adverse effects on the British consumer, there can be no doubt that the V.A.T. is unwelcome. But the Conservative Party have already made it clear in their manifesto that they favour the tax—and, for all I know, we are due to have it next April. But it is not to be done as part of a bargain in which we shall gain other advantages. We are to go voluntarily for this tax, which will have such adverse effects on the British housewife. This again seems to place the British negotiators in an unnecessarily weak position because they have already shown they will give way on something which might have been capable of being bargained about.
My third illustration relates to the nationalised industries. It is clear that

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the Government intend to sell off to private enterprise all those parts of nationalised industries—for example, in respect of certain civil aviation matters, items in the Coal Bill, and including Thomas Cook and Son and probably the Post Office Giro system—which are not an essential part of the central core of the industry which is nationalised.
I believe that the Government have two motives in this respect. In the first place it is in conformity with Conservative philosophy, but I believe there is a second motive. The Government are hiving these things off because they believe that it will make the path to the Common Market simpler and easier. Paragraph 90 of the Treaty of Rome when read in association with the other relevant clauses makes clear that although nationalisation is possible within the Common Market it cannot be used to distort competition. If we were to join I can imagine it being argued that profit-making airlines, manufacturing undertakings by the Coal Board, and a profitable travel agency run by British Rail would offend against that article of the Treaty.
My point is that there is no need to rush into acceptance of that point of view. Here are assets in Britain's hands which can be negotiated and argued about. Yet the Government are here also, as in their agricultural policy and their taxation approach adopting a posture of acquiescence to these unwelcome features of the Treaty of Rome rather than adopting an attitude of resistance and tough negotiation.
I believe that it is possible to negotiate toughly and that it is possible to get the right kinds of conditions on which Britain can enter the Market. But the margin within which this negotiation has to be done is narrow. We shall need all our strength and our assets of negotiation if we are to succeed. We must negotiate in good faith, willing to go in if the conditions are right, but we can only get those conditions right if we can do so with all the strength that we can possibly muster.
I am much less enthusiastic a European than my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) but I am a more willing European than my hon. Friend the Mem-
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ber for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson) though I appreciated his vigorous speech. That being my position, I am anxiously watching every report coming from Brussels, because I believe that we have already thrown away cards which we ought to hold close to our chests and play at the right time.
9.15 p.m.
Mr. Charles Simeons: I am grateful for this opportunity of addressing the House for the first time.
I should like to remind the House of the good work done by my predecessor, Will Howie, during the seven years that he was the Member for Luton. When the history books come to be written, he may figure in a way which few appreciate at the moment. I suspect that he is the only man to be elected to this House on the same day that a Prime Minister entered it. That is probably unique.
Luton is famous for a number of things. The hat industry is one of the oldest crafts for which it is known. If the quantity of hats has become reduced in recent years, the quality certainly has not. Luton is famous for men's straw boaters. My right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster at the moment has the ears of the world in Brussels. If my right hon. and learned Friend returns to Brussels with a Luton straw boater, he will have the eyes of the world as well. No one would be more famous since Maurice Chevalier, who is over 80 and still going strong.
Luton has a first-class football team bobbing about at the top of the Second Division. It may be felt to be contentious, but I say, without fear of contradiction, that while certain right hon. or hon. Members next year are burying their sorrows watching Second Division football, I shall be watching First Division football. I shall, of course, be delighted to invite them to see how football should be played.
There is an airport at Luton. No doubt many hon. Members have used it. Alongside the airport is the corporation rubbish dump. As I live at the end of the runway, perhaps it will not be felt that I am being unfair to my constituency if I mention that right hon. and hon. Members from surrounding constituencies have suggested that if any expansion

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takes place in the area it should be the rubbish dump, not the runway. I confess certain fellow feelings with them.
Luton is a town with light industry, and it also makes motor cars. Like most motor car towns, it has had rough handling from successive Chancellors.
I believe that the way to discover what is best for one's constituency is to go out and discuss things with people. If I were to go out and obtain a consensus of opinion, whether we should go into the Common Market or not, I have little doubt that my constituents would say, "No". If I asked why, they would probably say, "Because it is too expensive", and they would probably cite the cost of food. So I would suggest that we draw up an equation to see what it would cost to go in and what it would cost to stay out. As the representative for Luton, obviously I must look after the interests of the people there, though I have a national responsibility, too. But when we have balanced these factors, we can come to a conclusion on what is right for individual constituencies and an equation can be drawn up for the country as a whole.
If one thinks of those things which would be too expensive to do without, then I would draw attention to telecommunications and to most forms of advanced research, including the aircraft industry. These matters should not be forgotten. When I wrote to industry in Luton a little while ago asking "What are your views? Do you believe that if we went into the Common Market the people you employ would be better off in terms of earnings than if we stayed out?", they were almost unanimous that we would do much better if we went in.
I draw the attention of the House to Laportes, which has links with Belgium in the chemical industry, and I remind hon. Members that most of the engineering companies, or the larger ones at any rate, have subsidiaries within the Common Market, and that what we have to consider is that when the tariffs are reduced there will be a realignment of sales. The view of the motor car industry is that in the ultimate all countries take in 25 per cent. of somebody else's production. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell) mentioned the high percentage of foreign motor cars, and
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of course the percentage is rising, but the month which he may have had in mind—and I cannot ask him because he is not here—was one in which Vauxhalls had very little production at all because they were not working very rapidly at that stage. It is unfair to argue that we have a high rate of imports of foreign cars in one month at a time when the total production in this country, or in Luton anyway, is very low.
I suggest a figure which may surprise my hon. and learned Friend, although I mentioned it to him outside, and it is that the motor car industry in Luton believes that one captures 25 per cent. of another country's trade. If the British motor car industry loses a percentage which is equivalent to 25 per cent. of the British market, but captures a market in Europe which is equivalent to 25 per cent. of that market, it will come out of the bargain very well, and this is the view which the industry is taking, because it has set up retailers and distribution centres all over the Common Market in anticipation of this coming about.
There is another factor in Luton. We have a number of international companies such as Vauxhall, General Motors, Chrysler, Electrolux, Skefco, and, including members in the Chamber of Commerce, companies like Kodak, and if we think of the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey), we have the great CIBA, which has photographic interests in this country. Once these companies can rationalise their production in different countries then, instead of making a range of products at each of their factories, they can make one size of ball bearing, or have a run of Vivas, or a run of a particular type of refrigerator in one country, and because tariffs have been reduced the cost of transport far and away offsets this and they can easily ship to another country.
For the first part of my equation, industry in Luton, from what it has told me, is in favour of entry, but before we can complete the equation we have to discover the answer to the other unknown factors.
9.23 p.m.
Mr. John P. Mackintosh: It is a privilege to follow the hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Simeons) and to congratulate him on his witty maiden speech. He dealt very fairly with many aspects of the Common Market

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problem, particularly the costs of not entering, which are not often considered in this discussion. Our pleasure in listening to the hon. Gentleman was tempered by the genuine affection which many of us feel for his predecessor, but now that the hon. Gentleman is here we welcome him and look forward to equally helpful and constructive contributions in the future.
I was somewhat surprised by the remarks of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) in the Press, when he said that he was appalled at the trivial level of the debate on the Common Market. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has been present for most of the debate because, whatever one says about other debates, the deliberations of the House this afternoon have not been trivial. We have heard many interesting, informative and powerful speeches which have contributed a great deal to the discussion of this problem, none more powerful than that of my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson), who put his case with singular lucidity and power. He began by discussing the common agricultural policy and what he regarded as its unsatisfactory nature. In saying that we were having to take the common agricultural policy as it stood, I thought he was being a little unfair. The position is that we have to accept the policy prior to entry. We cannot renegotiate this prior to getting into the Common Market, but, once we are a member, the market problems of agriculture are open to pressure and adaption, as they have been up till now by member countries.
The key point to remember is that the Community said that if the present Community or an enlarged Community found unacceptable situations arising, the very life of the Community would require the institutions to find just solutions. The Community does not exist to penalise or destroy any member. It exists to see that each flourishes. If the existing situation does not meet the needs of its members, it can be adapted, but after rather than prior to entry. This is an entirely reasonable position for any organisation to maintain.
The agricultural policy is by no means fixed. It is a policy of protection, and I agree that to many people in this country,
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unaccustomed to self-sufficiency, the idea of an agricultural policy that produces surpluses which have to be destroyed seems to be fantastic, particularly to those who were brought up during the war when waste of food was regarded as immoral and wrong. But this country also has a system of protecting agriculture. The guaranteed price system is a protective system, but it does not waste, because we do not produce more than the country can consume. If, as the result of that system we produce more, it can be sold.
The system in Europe is not fundamentally different in economic terms from a system of protecting, say, a declining industry like coal and producing more coal at a higher cost than the country can absorb. We can and do subsidise the sale of the coal by taxes on oil imports or stock it till the market is more favourable. We do not, as is done with butter in Europe, actually destroy it. The demand for food products is so inelastic that they cannot be dealt with in the same way as raw materials such as coal.
Once we are in Europe and are a member of the Common Market we shall influence the total agricultural policy. As I think my hon. Friend knows, the policy in Europe is to reduce the area under production. The Mansholt plan is a gradual programme to take areas out of production. I remember pointing out to farmers in my constituency that the Mansholt plan intended to take out of production an area the size of Belgium. A farmer at the back of the hall shouted, "That's damned bad luck for Belgium, isn't it?" We appreciate that a cut in the area under production is made necessary by the improved productivity of farming and the inelastic demand for agricultural produce and that the situation will change as the Common Market develops, once we are members of the larger organisation.
What interests me is that, after the mid-1970s when the Common Market becomes self-sufficient in temperate food products, the present agricultural policy simply will not work because there cannot be an import levy if there are no imports. The common agricultural policy will have to be totally re-thought and readapted to a self-sufficient pattern, and in this the British vote and pressure along with that of other members will play a

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normal part. If we study this problem in more detail we shall see that we need not think that it is such a major obstacle to entry as my hon. Friend suggested.
I turn to the other major problems that have been raised. I accept that they have to be dealt with in pretty tough practical terms and not in the general fashion we shall adopt in our broader considerations to which I will turn at the end of my speech.
The first of these problems obviously, is the economic point, the question which has been put so often, and which has been put more recently by the National Institute Economic Review—of whether this country can afford entry.
Here, I think, the position is clarified. The position is that the Minister negotiating for this country has made an opening bid of 3 per cent. per annum rising to 13 to 15 per cent. of the total contribution over five years followed by three years of corrections. I understand that the Six have made a counter-bid of a higher starting position of 15 to 20 per cent., rising to 20 to 25 per cent. after five years which would involve less of a correction at the end of the eight-year period. But what interests us in this House, I think, is that, calculated either way, together with the burden on the balance of payments, the cost varies between a minimum of £285 million and a maximum of £480 million—though, as the right hon. Gentleman said, that is net and not gross.
This cost level seems to me to fit in very well with the sort of appreciation that my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) made on 25th February last year, when he pointed out that if, as a result of entry, the British growth rate increased by 0·5 per cent. more than it would have been, this would more than cover that cost. I was interested to see, despite the arguments over this controversial report by the National Institute, that even that article said:
"At the minimum, the formation of the Community has resulted in greater movement of labour. It is likely that the confidence which it has generated has led also to a greater willingness to invest, to employ resources in research and development, than would otherwise have been the case."
It makes these points, and goes on to deal with the question of growth
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[Interruption.] I hear the mutterings of my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) whose constant comments I always enjoy. The article states that—the hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell) refused to give way to me when he made this point—the growth rate in the Common Market tapered off slightly after the Common Market was formed.
Yes, this is true, it did taper off on average from 5·6 per cent. to 5·4 per cent.—and would that we had had a growth rate of 5·4 per cent. over the 10 years that the Common Market has been in existence. The amazing thing is that they kept up this growth rate over that decade, not that they went down by 0·2 per cent. after the formation of the Market.
In many other ways, one can see how tendentious these National Institute figures are. For instance, they ignore trade within the Community countries, which rose five-fold in the period. They complain that the Common Market's share of world exports declined, not noticing that none of them had a serious balance of payments deficit, and that, under the circumstances, there was no need for them to export more.
The preponderant point is that, when the Common Market was formed, only Luxembourg—which someone was jokingly comparing to Rutland—had a higher g.n.p. on average per head than Britain, and that, at the end of the decade, only Italy had a lower, and it was fast catching up on this country.
All the empirical evidence seems to suggest that, by joining the Common Market, there is every likelihood that we will get 0·5 per cent. greater growth, and if we do this we will more than cover the cost, at maximum, of the negotiating position offered by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
If that is the situation, we can leave the economic argument for entry aside, and say that it is now clear that this can be managed easily within the potentiality of this country, and turn to the political arguments, which I have always thought the more important. It has emerged in this debate that they are the points that are of most concern to Members and to the interests of this country.

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On this, of course, the argument has gone quickly to the question of sovereignty; the key problem of the independence and future of this country. I am very interested that certain political arguments have been dropped. Particularly the argument that the Common Market is a divisive factor in Europe has been abandoned.
We have now seen the most important efforts to bridge the gap in Europe coming from within the Common Market and many of my hon. Friends and, I suspect, most of the hon. Gentlemen opposite, would support the efforts that have been made by the German Chancellor to bridge it. It is interesting to see these efforts being made by a Common Market country.
In addition, we can now see the insularity of French policies declining. The Common Market is much more the sort of political entity which we could enter. What, therefore, is the argument about our losing sovereignty if we were to enter. I suggest that the argument becomes a semantic confusion.
When we say that we will lose sovereignty, we really mean that we will be prevented from doing things which we would otherwise want to do. But we do not have complete sovereignty outside the Market. The main weakness of the speech of the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Hugh Fraser) was his suggestion that it was either total independence or a surrender of sovereignty. It is not that sort of choice.
As I say, we cannot do exactly what we want to do even now. If anybody wants to see a lack of sovereignty let him consider the Macmillan Memoirs and the way in which the United States vetoed our ill-fated invasion of Suez. The Americans said, "Stop it" and they would not back us with a loan and this pressure brought the venture to an end. If one wants to look at the limitations on the so-called independence of Powers, one must study the foreign policies and activities of those countries and consider what they are free to do on their own.
Bearing this in mind, one must go on to ask: are we more capable of pursuing the interests of this country inside or outside a grouping such as the Common Market with the limitations that are
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imposed on us by membership? One need only look at Europe and compare what has been done by us in the last 10 years, as a so-called independent country outside the Community, with what has been done by countries in the E.E.C.
I did not like the foreign policy of General de Gaulle. However, one cannot say that in the 10 years since France joined the Market it has lacked sovereignty and independence. Indeed, I was always amazed at the way in which de Gaulle was able to pursue exactly the foreign policy which some of my hon. Friends below the Gangway would have liked to have seen this country pursuing, with separation from the United States, withdrawal from N.A.T.O. and an opening towards the East with the Soviet Union. That is what France tried to pursue and nobody can say that its membership of the Community prevented it from doing so. Indeed, its membership of the Community gave it a better economic base from which to attempt those policies.
We are an allegedly independent country capable of signing various treaties and so on. Consider our relationship with the I.M.F. and the other measures that we have taken because of our balance of payments difficulties. Our attitude towards Vietnam is a good example. Was this not affected by our weak financial position and partial dependence on the United States? If so, it cannot be said that Britain would lose its independence and sovereignty by becoming part of a more powerful independent Europe.
Mr. Marten: The analogy which the hon. Gentleman has been drawing is about the past. Nobody has suggested that sovereignty has been lost up to this stage. We, unlike the hon. Gentleman, are looking forward and it is our fear of a loss of sovereignty in the future to which we have been referring, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) pointed this out.
Mr. Mackintosh: I am delighted to look into the future in the same way, though to measure the situation one must look at what has happened up to this stage and at the present situation.
At this time, what other country is taking the lead in Europe? Anybody with the least bit of fairness will admit

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that it is West Germany under Chancellor Brandt. Again, this is a country inside the Common Market working from a secure power base. Because of this, it is in a position to play a leading rôle in European and in world affairs.
The point about the future is that if we are members of the Common Market—of a wider Europe—we will have the same opportunity of giving a lead. In my view, the interests of Britain in the Middle East, with our hope for a peaceful settlement there, would be enhanced, as would our interests in Africa and in other developing countries by joint action in Europe.
Our interests in these areas are synonymous with those of the other European countries. There is now no great divergence of interest between France, Britain and Germany in the defence of Europe, the Mediterranean or the North Sea and, given proper leadership, we can play a leading rôle on these questions.
My hon. Friend the Member for Penistone attacked the defence aspect of joining the Common Market. He said how scandalous it was to think that we might join America, as a third nuclear power in a Europe which might involve sharing nuclear and other weapons; that in this way we might in Europe have a common defence policy. What puzzled me about that is the suggestion that if we remain on our own we can defend ourselves. In N.A.T.O., we are under the American umbrella. When my hon. Friend says, "Don't join because this means more responsibility and power in Europe for your own defence," he says in effect that if we are faced with threats from the East, let America deal with them and we will remain the minor partner in N.A.T.O.
Mr. Mendelson: I know that my hon. Friend would not wish to misrepresent what I said. I referred specifically to a third nuclear command within the Community of the Six, which is a policy to which the Labour Party and its leader have been consistently opposed, and have always attacked. It is to that aspect that I was addressing myself.
Mr. Mackintosh: I must point out two things to my hon. Friend. The first is that I gave way to him when he did not give way to me. I always give way to other hon. Members. Secondly, I
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certainly got him right on this matter. I am pointing out that a realistic policy of independence is an alternative to membership of the N.A.T.O. Alliance under American control. I am not anti-American in these matters but, to be realistic, we must consider all the options that are open to us, and one option is not to be independent as either a nuclear or non-nuclear power. It is to be part of N.A.T.O., or to share the greater part of the burden as part of a European entity. I thought that in many ways the latter question would give this country more independence than leaving the major burden to the United States as we do now, but I suspect that my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), the previous Minister of Defence, will elaborate on this tomorrow.
I have tried to discuss sovereignty, defence and economic questions. I feel very deeply that those of us who are in favour of going into Europe must not be regarded, as some hon. Members have suggested, as trying to sell the country down the river or of walking out in regard to our normal attitudes of patriotism and loyalty. Many of us, and I include myself, born and brought up in the Commonwealth and Empire who have lived and worked there, appreciate its value, and whatever happens at the Singapore Conference going on at the moment, we cannot regard this as an economic or political power which can confer freedom of activity and scope on this country.
I believe in joining the Common Market, extending it, using it to build bridges with Eastern Europe, and developing its potentiality so that we can find for our country a direction and purpose which has been sadly lacking since 1945. I accept Dean Acheson's remark that we have lost an empire and have failed to find a rôle. We have to find a rôle, and we shall do so in a wider and, I hope, democratically constructed Europe. That is a lofty idea for this country, and I wish the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster success in his negotiations.
9.43 p.m.
Mr. John Brewis: At this stage of the debate most subjects have already been mentioned. We have heard

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about the high contributions we may have to make to the Community's financing. I was glad that the hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh) mentioned the increase of 0·5 per cent. a year, and said how that would, in a five-year period, bring in £1,100 million per annum cumulative, and no less than £2,700 million over 10 years.
Those who are opposed to our going into the Market say that we shall be crushed by these very heavy contributions to the E.E.C. funds and also by the higher prices of food. It is rather curious to recall that exactly the same arguments were put forward in the countries of the Six at the time of the signing of the Treaty of Rome. Belgium, for example, at that time had an antiquated industrial system, rather resembling our own at the end of the war. She was already tending to lose out to Holland inside Benelux. Her rate of growth was sluggish. A very small proportion of her population was in agriculture so she was forced to make a heavy contribution under the common agricultural policy. Yet after the signing of the Treaty of Rome her growth rate went up from 2·6 per cent. previously to 3·8 per cent. between 1958 and 1969.
At the time of the signing of the Treaty of Rome, Italy had the highest tariff barriers of any of the Six. Who would have thought that Italian industry would have been able to stand up to competition from Germany? At that time, Italy exported only about 10 per cent. of her g.n.p., but now Italy has a motor car industry of the highest quality selling in Europe. She is leading in items of electrical equipment, such as refrigerators, and the proportion of her gross national product which is exported has risen to 27 per cent.
Whether or not we accept the terms of entry which are negotiated by my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, the world will not stay just the same, fixed in either the Victorian mould or its existing mould. We shall face fierce competition if we are outside the E.E.C. from the United States, from Japan and from the vitalised industries of the E.E.C., such as the Italian motor car industry. We may also find that there are some defections from E.F.T.A.
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The hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson) said that the Treaty of Rome was now settled and that room for manoeuvre in the negotiations was not very great. I was reminded of the mythological story of the sibyl who offered the founder of the City of Rome nine books at a certain price. When he refused to buy the nine, she burnt three and offered him six at the same price. If we had joined the Treaty of Rome at the time when it was signed, we should have had a say in negotiations and probably the leading say. If we had joined in 1962 or 1963, we might well have been in a position of taking the six books. But there are still three books of national advantage to be had by our country joining the Common Market.
Whether I am right or wrong about the economic circumstances, there are excellent reasons in defence and foreign policy why we must join. Europe of the Ten would have a population of 252 million and opposed to us would be Russia, which has a population of about 220 million. However, the commanding officer of N.A.T.O. has said that the influence of Russia is gradually and steadily growing. We can see it in many places, in the Middle East, in the Mediterranean and even in the Indian Ocean.
At the moment there is no great tension, but there was considerable tension two and a half years ago when Russia invaded Czechoslovakia. Tension is rather like a yo-yo—it goes up and down; it may be Berlin tomorrow; it was Hungary yesterday; it may be Czechoslovakia. We cannot say that we do not need to be united in defence against threats from Eastern Europe. But the experience of the last 20 years shows that we cannot have any effective joint defence policy without having the economic union of the Common Market first.
The S.A.L.T. negotiations now going on between Russia and America in Helsinki—incidentally, the first formal negotiations between super-Powers in which France and Britain have not been sitting at the same table—are for the limitation of strategic armaments. If an agreement is reached between America and Russia, however much they keep us in the picture about what is going on, it increases the disparity in conventional arms between Eastern Europe and

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Western Europe. At present there are probably four times as many tanks in Eastern Europe as there are in Western Europe. The Royal Navy is the largest Navy in Western Europe, but the Russian Navy is five times as great in manpower, and certainly in submarines.
We need the political will to co-operate and unite in Europe. The history of European co-operation is littered with wrecked barques of organisations like E.S.R.O., E.L.D.O., Euratom and many others. Five years ago Britain produced a very good aeroplane, the TSR 2, but we could not afford to go it alone in that. We need a common policy of co-operation in the procurement of arms and in cost sharing in Europe.
In conclusion, the debate now taking place in Britain is probably, in historical terms, very similar to a debate which occurred when Scotland was considering whether to sign the Treaty of Union with England in 1707. It was very unpopular at the time, and I have no doubt that, if a referendum had been taken, the decision would have gone against that union. But over the last 250 years, most Scotsmen and Englishmen would agree that it has been a very profitable union to the two countries. Some 10 or 12 years before that union the Scots sent an expedition to Darien to try to form a colony on the Isthmus of Panama. The failure of that expedition shows that Scotland in those days was not able to bat in the big league in the business of forming colonies.
In the last 10 years or so, in places like Algeria, Suez and Aden, Britain and France have learned similar lessons. Most thinking Britons, Frenchmen and Europeans realise that we must get together for the future of Europe.
9.53 p.m.
Mr. Ronald King Murray,: I have listened to the debate with a growing sense of oppression engendered by a sense of lack of reality which is coming upon me with considerable force.
This sense of unreality is due to two factors. First, we are to a considerable extent debating in a state of essential ignorance. We do not know and, in a sense, cannot know, the key facts which alone can determine whether it will pay us to enter the Common Market. Second, partly for that reason and partly for others, I feel that the debate is essen-
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tially between good will, on the one hand, and apprehension and suspicion, on the other. I do not see how these can be weighed against one another in considering how we must direct our intentions in regard to the Common Market.
Two factors which are readily confused are, first, the political factor, and, second, the economic one. I have heard some probing and brilliant speeches directed to the political side, the advantages of integration and the dangers of some sacrifice of sovereignty. There is not a great deal of disagreement on this aspect. At the end of the day, practically all hon. Members will accept the view that some degree of international integration must be the ultimate destiny of this country. The only question is whether the step that we are now discussing is the correct one to take in that direction.
When one comes down to cases, there is not a great deal of discussion about the choices open to us. There is no other genuine possibility by way of political integration. The offer is one of integration with Western Europe. It is a comparatively parochial group, but it is one which could be a growth point for the future. The prospects are integration there or none at all.
In considering whether we enter, there must be a burden of proof. Debates which take place without regard to that are useless. Clearly the burden of proof must be upon those who favour entry. In terms of the political aspect, it is clear that the burden of proof can be discharged. It is when we come to the economic aspect that I begin to have serious doubts.
I have always hoped that we could enter a wider community in Europe. As the months have dragged on and we have had little definite information about the range of talks in Brussels, I have become increasingly worried about the difficulty of getting firm information on which to judge the cost.
My hon. Friend the Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh) referred to a figure taken from a comparatively abstruse publication which showed that the probable net contribution of this country to the Common Market budget would be between £280 million and £480 million per annum. That

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is a very substantial sum. However, a publication to which I attach more importance, the T.U.C's report on the prospects and probable effects of British entry, makes a cogent and well-argued assessment that if the net cost to this country is more than a low number of hundreds of millions of £s per annum, we cannot afford it. We must have a more accurate account from our negotiators and those who are in a position to inform the public of the way to assess figures of this kind and the economic impact of them before we can be in a position to judge whether we should enter.
It will not do to say that a key of something between 15 and 25 per cent. is one which will do. There are ample statements from sources quite as authoritative as my hon. Friend's to the effect that a key of something between 10 and 12 per cent. is the maximum that we could sustain and that something a good deal lower than that should be sought.
That is one aspect which worries me. I turn now to a second and more worrying one. As I have said, the burden of proof is on those who favour entry. They have to prove that we can afford it. I hope that it can be established that we can afford it. If it can be established that the country can afford to pay a cost which appears prohibitively high, a second problem then arises.
It may be that that very high cost will marginally be for the benefit of the British people as a whole. We must with courage and optimism try to create a dynamic future for this country, so, if it be marginal, to that extent I, for one, would favour dynamism. But I cannot avoid realising that the consequences of entry, although favourable to the population of the South and East of this country, might be catastrophic for the population of the far North, the North-West, the West and the South-West.
Successive Governments of both parties have, through the years, continually had to struggle with the problems of regional development. I find it astonishing that nothing specific seems to have come out of the negotiations so far to indicate any definite guarantee regarding regional development policies in this country. Yet entry into the Common Market, though marginally to the advantage of the British
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people, could, as I say, be catastrophic to Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and the North and South-West of England.
I take that last problem, which assails me most deeply, one stage further. When the original Common Market negotiations were being conducted, Italy, one of the original negotiators, had a somewhat similar problem in relation to its under-developed regions in the South, Sicily and the southern toe of Italy. At that time, Italy was able to agree a protocol to the Treaty which enabled its special regional arrangements to be continued.
It seems to me that, unless we can secure something of that sort for our regional development problems, which are at least as acute as the problems assailing Italy—
Mr. Douglas: No.
Mr. Murray: In my view, they are. I consider that our problems are at least as acute, particularly in the long term, and, therefore, I should wish to see something at least as definite in our case.
There is this further consideration. One of the applicants for entry along with the United Kingdom at this time is Norway. Norway has problems closely similar in many respects to the problems of Scotland. It would seem to me a situation which no democratic assembly could contemplate that Norway should in its independent negotiations achieve arrangements for entry which were substantially more beneficial to her than any arrangements which the United Kingdom could negotiate.
Mr. Douglas: My hon. and learned Friend has spoken of two nations in this connection, Italy and Norway. He ought not to say that the problems of Italy are in any way comparable with those of Scotland. It does not do justice to Scotland's case here to paint our picture blacker than it need appear. The problems of Italy, with its very high unemployment, are not comparable to those of Scotland even today, with unemployment at 4 per cent.
As regards Norway, the Norwegian Social Democratic Party sent delegates to all the Six countries, and they found that the people most favourable towards continuance of the E.E.C. were the Social Democratic parties of the Six. If we are

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social democrats, our reaction should be, "All these people want us to join, and we want Scotland to join as well".
Mr. Murray: I do not want to spoil a case which, I believe, can be put with simplicity and clarity. For the purpose of my argument, I need not draw any close parallel between the problems of Southern Italy in relation to Italy as a whole and the problems of Scotland, Northern Ireland, and so on in relation to the rest of the United Kingdom. All I say is that our problems of regional development are at least as important to the British people and require at least as good a guarantee for this country as did the problems which the Italian Government were able to meet by such a protocol.
For those reasons, it being my desire to attain a closer integration with Europe, I fervently hope that the burden of proof can be discharged by the Government, establishing to my satisfaction not only that the political objective can be achieved but that the cost of entry is not prohibitive and that we can go in.
10.5 p.m.
Sir Anthony Meyer: If the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Murray) invites sympathy, my heart bleeds for him in the agonising doubts in which he finds himself. He paraded them in such a way as to invite me to massacre Wordsworth, but Wordsworth has already been massacred twice today and so I resist the temptation.
I am emboldened by the presence just in front of me of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) to answer a challenge he has frequently uttered, which is that we should come clean on where we stand on the issue. Let me come absolutely clean. It has been said by many hon. Members in the debate that everything depends on the terms. Frankly, I do not think that it depends on the terms at all. I believe that it would be in the interests of this country to join the E.E.C. whatever the terms. That is not quite such a bold statement as it sounds, because no Government could in fact accept very bad terms and then survive, because the effect of bad terms would be that it would be a very long time before we reaped any benefit from membership.
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I believe that in the long-term interest of this country we should join the Common Market whatever terms we get, but I do not think that there is much risk of my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster following my advice upon that matter. I pay tribute to the way in which he has handled the negotiations, being concerned not with defining the differences between the two parties in negotiation but rather in seeing that the problems which will become common problems once, or if, the negotiations are successful can be resolved in the interests of all the members of an enlarged Community. It is only if the problem is approached in that way that there can possibly be hope of its being solved.
Is it for economic or political reasons that I say that it is in the interests of this country to join whatever the terms? The answer is, both. The economic case does not depend, and I do not think that it can be argued to appear to depend, purely on calculating whether we gain more than we lose, whether the effect on our balance of payments will be such as to arrest our growth. The economic argument is the psychological argument, the possibility of restoring to British industry that sense of expansion-mindedness and adventure which was the foundation of this country's economic greatness in the past. The economic argument is the sudden expansion of our domestic guaranteed market from 90 million to over 200 million. That will have an immediate psychological effect which must surely be the basis of the economic argument.
There is another half of that argument that is valid, the argument based on modern technology. This is where the economic argument ties up with the political argument. It is quite simply that we as a nation are not large enough to maintain the advanced industry essential to the survival of any industrial nation in this and succeeding decades. We have only to look at what is happening in the aircraft industry or the motor industry to see this process at work. We are bit by bit losing our sovereignty without having taken any decision whatever. The result of not taking a decision is that our sovereignty is draining away from us, and nearly all in one direction, towards the United States.

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This brings me to the political arguments. All that I want to say on them is that we should be very clear about what we want to achieve. If we want to achieve certain aims, we must consent to certain pooling of sovereignty. We shall have to consent to institutions to make that sovereignty effective. It is pointless to argue about federalism, confederalism and all the rest.
It seemed to me that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary put this well, and has done on numerous occasions, in saying that the first thing to do is to define the objectives and thereafter to work out what are the minimum institutional requirements in order to make it possible to achieve them. How one can do that, I do not know, but it probably is nothing like federalism.
I finish by saying what it is that we are hoping to achieve. It seems to me that there are certain ideas which are central to our whole way of life, and they are common to both parties. They are the idea of government by consent in the interests of the majority—yes—but taking account of what the minority is prepared to tolerate; the idea of a very wide freedom of action for the minority to seek to alter the decisions of the majority; the idea, accepted by most hon. Members, of the total rejection of force as a means of influencing political events in this community; the idea, relatively new in this country, of social responsibility—that those who are comparatively well off accept a measure of responsibility for those who are less well off.
These are the basic ideas of our civilisation which now can be ensured of survival only if there is a political base on which they can rest. I believe that that political base no longer exists without fear of destruction on the other side of the Atlantic. I believe that the United States is so close to being overwhelmed by its social, racial and urban problems that we can no longer be certain that there will be in the United States an agency for upholding these values, which are essential to the continuance of our civilisation. It is useless to look eastwards either to the Soviet Union or to Asia, for the maintenance of these values. Only Europe can maintain these ideas which seem to be essential if the twenty-first century is to be less odious
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than the twentieth century has been. Only a united Europe can provide a large enough base to enable these values to survive.
10.13 p.m.
Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: It is my first and pleasant task to congratulate the three hon. Members who have made their maiden speeches in this debate. The first of the three, the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Hicks) is a native of the area he represents. I thought that I detected the burr of the South-West in his speech. He dealt with the problems which affect his constituency and I hope to follow him on one or two of the agricultural points he made. I am sure that the Minister will take careful note of what he said about the fishing industry, because there is a great deal of concern in the fishing industry about the protection of our territorial waters if we enter the E.E.C.
The hon. Member for Clapham (Mr. William Shelton) spoke with great vigour and showed a considerable knowledge of the implications of joining the Common Market. The hon. Member for Luton (Mr. Simeons) made a witty and amusing speech, although the picture he drew of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster approaching Brussels in a straw boater was rather a terrifying one. The hon. Member for Luton obviously knows how to appeal to an important section of his electorate, because he referred with enthusiasm to the Luton Football Club, in the hope that the football fans will take note of what he said.
All three hon. Members have made an excellent start. There was no trace of nervousness at all in their speeches. I am sure that they felt nervous as most of us did. I remember the late Megan Lloyd George telling me that her father, David Lloyd George, who sat in this House for 55 years, never got on to his feet to make a speech in the House without feeling butterflies in his stomach. That should be a comfort to all of us. We look forward to hearing all three hon. Members speaking again in our debates.
We are now half way through our debate on the E.E.C., and although we are not taking any decision we are given the opportunity to examine the progress which has been made up to now in the negotiations being conducted, in the main,

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by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. One thing seems to me to have emerged clearly in today's speeches—that many hon. Members on both sides of the House, including those who tend towards the Common Market have reservations about the course of the negotiations. Hon. Members are still asking questions and I think that this is a healthy thing at this stage. It is right that these apprehensions should be expressed in the debate and that Ministers should clarify and explain as fully as they can the agreements which have been reached and the areas of disagreement and doubt which remain. I have sat through a large part of the debate and it seems to me that hon. Members who have spoken have taken the view that this is the purpose of the debate and that we should exercise this right to scrutinise and ask for clarification.
The one exception was the hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer). He has been in Wales only a few months and when he has had the experience, as we have, of living next door to a large neighbour, he will realise the importance of negotiating the terms very carefully. No doubt we shall be able to educate him as his stay in the Principality lengthens—up to the next election, anyway.
When he made his opening speech in Brussels on 30th June, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was then in charge of the negotiations, said that there were five main problems for this country and three of these related, first, to agricultural policy, secondly, to Commonwealth sugar and, thirdly, to New Zealand. I am sure that the House will understand that it is appropriate for me to address myself in the main to the first of these, agricultural policy, because all of us recognise the vital importance of agriculture in the negotiations.
The present Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has made some statements in the House which have included references to agriculture, and he enlarged on them in his speech this afternoon. But so far his remarks have been in general terms. From the information at my disposal, I have discovered that his statements have not allayed the apprehensions of many farmers that they will be worse off if we join the European Economic Community.
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My right hon. Friend the Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore) was right when he said that one important difference between the present negotiations and those which took place in 1967 were that, had we got in 1967, we could have played a part in the final formulation of the common agricultural policy. Perhaps the Minister of Agriculture, who I understand will be opening the debate tomorrow, will comment on this point. I do not think anybody could claim that the common agricultural policy has worked out even to the satisfaction of the Six. All of us recognise this and we might as well say so in this debate.
There have been enormous agricultural problems in the E.E.C. beside which our own problems in this country pale into insignificance. This is recognised both in this country and by agricultural experts in the E.E.C. The Mansholt plan was a recognition of those great problems. That plan has not made very much progress to date. This is where the hon. and learned Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell) was a little misleading. Nobody exactly suggests that if we go in we can change the framework of the common agricultural policy as laid down in the Treaty. That is what my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition was clearly referring to when he made his speech. Nevertheless, substantial changes are possible within that framework, and it is towards these that we must aim.
The question at this moment of time is whether we have to wait, as was suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh) in a very powerful speech, until we join before we can hope to see these changes come about. This is the point to which both right hon. Gentlemen should address their minds in the debate tomorrow. In addition to the Mansholt plan, Directives were submitted by the Commission to the Council in April last. Could it be confirmed that these are still subject to argument within the Six?
What hope does the right hon. Gentleman see of some progress on these Directives? The farming community in this country will wish to know. The question is whether British agriculture is to merge into the common agricultural policy without any desirable changes in the system in the meantime. The cost of

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market support, the fact that unwanted surplus production is still being encouraged in the Community are all matters which must concern us at this stage of the negotiations.
We frequently talk about the problems of small farmers in this country. The hon. Member for Bodmin referred to this problem in his constituency. It must be remembered that the average size of farms in this country is some 67 acres. In the E.E.C., it is 27 acres. Therefore, their structural problem is far greater than ours. I do not want to make too much of this because the countries of the Six are very concerned about this question of structure. They have policies for them and are working hard to try to solve the problem. But we ourselves must not overlook it.
Does the Minister see a possibility of a real effort being made to resolve these major problems of agriculture in the Community during the next two or three years? This was one of my chief preoccupations some seven months ago, when I was sitting in the Minister's seat.
A further point that needs clarification concerns the Annual Review which both the Chancellor of the Duchy and the Minister of Agriculture have said will still be held if we join the Community. In fairness to both right hon. Gentlemen, they have tried to explain this matter, but it is important to clarify it and reassert it so that our farmers will know exactly what will happen if we join. Let everybody be clear in their minds that it will not be the same kind of review. It will be a horse of a different colour.
Major decisions would be taken in Brussels. There would be no determination of the regulation of guaranteed allowances for us in this country following a thorough consultation with farmers' representatives. The prices for farm products in the Community will be decided at Community level following an annual review. I do not argue against this because it is a quite respectable system if it works properly. It would certainly make the work of the British Minister of Agriculture very much easier, as the right hon. Gentleman will learn during the next few weeks! But the farm Price Review as we have known
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it in this country for nearly a quarter of a century will no longer exist.
I understand that the N.F.U., with which the Minister has been having close liaison, is concerned about the nature of its consultation in the Community. At present, the consultations between the Commission and the farming organisations are purely voluntary. Do the Government regard this as satisfactory, or will they be asking for something more positive for farmers' representatives?
One of the realities which farmers and others will have to face if we go into the Community is that the set-up will inevitably be more remote because we shall be members of a far bigger community than we are now. The old cosy relationship between farmers and the Minister of Agriculture will have gone forever. In these circumstances, I am not sure that the Minister was right to abolish the Agricultural Executive Committees on the threshold of entering the E.E.C., because they provided a framework which kept the Minister in close touch with farmers.
It is not possible to have a satisfactory debate on the commodities until we know the situation in greater detail. But I hope that the House will forgive me if I deal with one or two of the practical realities. If we do not ask the questions and get the answers now, it might be too late. This is perhaps the last occasion when there is still fluidity in the position. That is why I avail myself of the opportunity of putting these important questions to the Minister.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said that an understanding had been reached with the Six concerning liquid milk, eggs and pig meat and that it had been agreed that no further points need be raised on these items except in the general context of the transitional arrangements. Even at this stage I should say that that statement was a bit slender. I think that we should be told much more about it now.
Liquid milk is of vital importance to the British farming community. We need to know what will happen to the Milk Marketing Board—and, indeed, to the other Marketing Boards. The Minister has said that the Marketing Boards will remain if we enter the Community. We understand that. But will they be the

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same kinds of boards? Efficient marketing will be absolutely vital if we enter the Community. It will be more crucial for us than it is now, because our peripheral areas will become even more peripheral.
I understand that in the Community these boards would be non-governmental organisations. But what would their responsibilities be? Would they, for example, be responsible for the direction of supplies, for the pooling of returns, for seasonal pricing, and so on? Will the Minister tell us what the functions of the boards will be and whether they will be exercised on behalf of all producers?
Milk producers in this country enjoy equality of treatment in price. The House will remember the Padfield case, the difficulties which ensued, and the decision which I took at the time, which I still think was right. Can the Minister assure us that there will be the same equality in the Community and no regional variations?
I do not want to go into detail concerning the other marketing boards, but the future of the Potato Marketing Board, the Wool Board and the Hops Board also needs clarifying. The information which we have on all these boards is, putting it bluntly, far too vague at the moment.
On pig meat, I think that some form of bacon sharing agreement will be necessary if we go into the Community. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that. In the last few years we have avoided the kind of cyclical changes which we used to have which were unfortunate for the industry and which they still have in the Community. Therefore, a sharing agreement of some kind is called for.
In recent years we have had a good deal of discussion in the House on butter, cheese, and other milk Products. When I was the Minister I was the subject of savage criticism by hon. Gentlemen opposite, when they were on this side of the House, who, week after week, castigated me about my policies on milk products. I think that with quotas on butter and restraint on cheese imports we did rather well in a difficult international situation. I believe the Minister has begun to realise that prices have remained relatively stable—butter at 3s. 6d. a lb., and cheese at 3s. 10d. a lb.—and, as we know, prices are very much higher in the Community.
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Will the Minister say how much more cheese and butter he envisages coming in to the United Kingdom from the Community if we go in? It is likely that the Republic of Ireland and Denmark will be joining, too. They are big producers of milk products, and we want to know what the situation will be.
This is not an easy question to deal with. The question of milk products is one of the most complicated agricultural problems with which Ministers will have to deal, and it will be helpful if the Minister can explain tomorrow how he sees this developing. I do not want to be alarmist, but now is the time to take a good look at this aspect of agriculture, in the interests of the producer and of the consumer.
I now turn to the important question of the transitional period for agriculture. The five-year period which has been agreed to is obviously a compromise, and it is probably the best that could be hoped for in all the circumstances. Because I want to curtail my speech I shall deal with one subject only in relation to that transition, and that is the subject mentioned by the hon. Member for Bodmin; namely, horticulture.
For some years we have all recognised that entry into the Community would pose some severe problems for this sector of the industry in Britain. We should, if possible, have a longer transitional period for horticulture, and I hope that the Minister and his colleagues will find it possible to reopen discussions on this matter with the Six, otherwise the consequences may be disastrous for a large number of horticulturists.
I know that the N.F.U. has made a number of suggestions to the Government, and we shall be interested to know what their response is to these. It would be very unfortunate if the industry collapsed because insufficient account had been taken of its problems before we entered the Community. It would be helpful if we could have some more information on this subject.
Last week I attended a meeting of farmers in North Wales, and many of the questions that I am asking were uppermost in their minds. They are particularly concerned about the position of the hill farmer if we enter the E.E.C. This is one aspect of regional policy to which many hon. Members have referred. The

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Minister has said that the question of aids to hill farmers remains to be negotiated. Perhaps he will tell us more about his objectives on this issue. It is a matter of the utmost importance that hill farmers are given some reassurance that their interests will be fully safeguarded, and I say that bearing in mind the Minister of Agriculture's constant reiteration that farmers must "stand on their own two feet".
Does the Minister consider that those areas of the United Kingdom now designated as hill areas fit into the provisions of Article 92 of the Treaty of Rome? This is the key question to the future of hill farmers if we enter the Community, for we have to bear in mind that those areas of the countries of the Six which derive benefits under Article 92 represent a level of poverty which is wholly uncharacteristic of this country. Does the Minister believe that our hill areas would qualify for assistance without unduly extending the principles under which those areas of the E.E.C. are assisted? In other words, to what extent are the hill sheep, the hill cow and winter keep subsidies at risk?
The Minister knows that our livestock economy depends upon the hill and lowland areas alike, and if the production grants are discontinued that economy could be disrupted, with serious consequences. I hope that the Minister will reply in full, because the hill farmers of Wales, Scotland and the North Pennines want more information than they have had up to now.
I noted carefully the undertakings which the Chancellor of the Duchy gave about New Zealand and the Commonwealth sugar-producing countries. I should have liked to dwell at length on these problems, but I have one Commonwealth point to make. The last Government gave an undertaking to Jamaica that, if we entered the Common Market, special arrangements would protect the Jamaican banana interests in the United Kingdom. There is no evidence yet of any special undertakings to honour this obligation. What is required is that Britain should ensure a treatment of Jamaica in this respect similar to that granted by the French and Italians in the Community to their own ex-colonial producers.
Sir Harwood Harrison: It is not only the island of Jamaica which is involved: there are other Caribbean islands as well concerned in the Geest shipping arrangements.
Mr. Hughes: I am obliged; I was referring to Jamaica more in a representative capacity, and I know that the right hon. Gentleman understands this. As he has announced that he is going to the Caribbean shortly, perhaps he would look into this matter when he is there.
I said when I was Minister of Agriculture, and I say it now, that the British farmer can compete with any farmer in the world, given equal terms, but the terms must be negotiated and fought and they must be seen to be right. I have tried to summarise the main problems and have asked a number of questions, and I hope that the Minister will reply tomorrow with generous candour. I would not wish it that anything which I say tonight should make it more difficult for the right hon. Gentleman to obtain consensus agreement with the representatives of the Council of Ministers. I wish him very well.
He has been commissioned to draft an agreement and he has a duty to pursue that end, but that end can never over-ride the absolute duty of the Government to preserve the interests of all the people of this country, and that includes the farming community. They must never put it to us that a point of no return has been passed. It is essential that there must be the most unremitting appraisal both of the great benefits which will accrue if we join the Common Market and also of the problems which attend our entry.
The political implications, as so many have said, are very great. I found the arguments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) on the political side and the question of sovereignty very compelling. What the Chancellor of the Duchy said on this was also impressive. This presents no great difficulty to me as a Welshman, because we surrendered much of our sovereignty centuries ago, as indeed have the English and the Scots. Therefore, I see no difficulty about yielding some sovereignty, provided we yield it to a democratic society with democratic institutions. On this again, the House

1213
must be absolutely certain. At this stage, therefore, let us be constructively critical and let the Government reply fully to the questions which have been put.
10.38 p.m.
Mr. Douglas Dodds-Parker: As the last back-bench speaker tonight from the Government side, may I congratulate the three maiden speakers on very useful, witty and constructive contributions? I am sure that if they speak as briefly as they did tonight, they will earn not only your praise, Mr. Speaker, but also the gratitude of their colleagues on both sides of the House. In all cases, they succeeded good and popular Members, who took a major part in the activities, party and all-party, of the House. Perhaps I might also mention, in regard to Bodmin, Sir Douglas Marshall, a colleague of ours for many years.
We have covered a vast range of topics this evening. The speeches made today have cut right across party lines but, on balance, I suggest that they have helped the case which was put by my right hon. and learned Friend. They will, of course, be studied by the Six and the Commission and I hope that when the apprehensions that have been expressed by hon. Members on both sides are studied by them, allowance will be made accordingly when they proceed to further negotiations.
I enjoyed and learned a lot from the speeches of the right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever), my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas), the hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh) and the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson), if it is not invidious for me to pick out individual speeches. Between them they covered just about the complete spectrum of views expressed in this interesting debate. The first three speeches I supported because they favoured entry on acceptable terms, a point of view which I have always held. Their speeches were constructive and forward-looking.
My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will reply tomorrow to the points raised particularly by the right hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. Cledwyn Hughes). I will not, therefore
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—although I once had the privilege of representing an agricultural constituency—venture into those turbulent waters.
I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend on his presentation of the case at the opening of the debate and on his conduct of the negotiations so far. I sympathise with him in his difficulties in trying to negotiate an agreement under these conditions. Many of us believe in open agreements, secretly negotiated, but here, as the hon. Member for Penistone pointed out, every proposal and counter reply is discounted and chewed over in public before it is even delivered to the other side. I have never known negotiations to be carried on quite in this way.
My right hon. and learned Friend is on a tightrope. If he is too optimistic on behalf of our interests in this country, our friends in the Community expect an immediate signature without further discussion. If, on the other hand, he appears to be too pessimistic about our interests, the opponents of our entering the Community, whose views I often respect, reject any idea of association. This being the position, it is difficult for us in this two-day debate to discuss the situation as it stands.
My personal views have always remained the same since a conversation I had over dinner in the summer of 1941 with M. Spaak. I will not bore the House with the details, except to say that he made it clear to me that only a closer association from the political, defence and economic points of view would prevent a recurrence of the wars and disasters which Europe had suffered between 1914 and 1945. From that time I have always worked for an association to be created, on reasonable terms.
The word "Commonwealth" has been interjected in the debate at least once in my hearing. For a decade after the war I played a small part, with hon. Members on both sides of the House, in trying to build Commonwealth co-operation on these three points which might replace the association of the Empire. I regret how little success we had.
My right hon. and learned Friend is carrying out the instructions which were given by the House in the debate in July, 1967, when, by an overwhelming

1215
majority, hon. Members decided that the Government of the day should seek an association with the Community on acceptable terms. I am rather sad, looking at the debates of the last four years—since the previous Government renewed the application—at the decline in the enthusiasm and idealism which were found a decade or so ago, especially among younger people. That is perhaps inevitable, as negotiations have been suspended or have dragged on and have been concerned with what are thought to be somewhat trivial issues, though, as has been pointed out today, they are technical points of the greatest importance to the various communities in this country.
At no time in our history has our outlook been based on purely economic advantage. I believe that our history will show that we have looked beyond that. I hope, too, that we can soon look beyond the present economic negotiations to the aims and purposes—defence, cultural and political on which my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) touched, and beyond to the basis of effective economic co-operation, and when we can thereby lift this debate beyond these economic negotiations we can regain and restore the enthusiasm that existed in this country a decade ago, particularly among the young, for the great concept of a united Europe.
I turn next to defence and its allied problems. I do not wish to waste much time on the past, but the death of Dr. Brüning must have touched a chord in other memories than mine. Those brought up in this country in the years of inflation—the 'twenties—in Germany will remember the struggle by the Weimar Republic to establish democracy there in a decade which believed that the First World War had been fought to end all wars and was to be the last great war. In 1929, overcome by the economic difficulties of Germany, Dr. Brüning resigned because he was unaided effectively by others in Europe or North America, and four years later we had Hitler with his autarchy, and all the other autarchies in an autarchic period in Europe. I have always believed that had some such organisation as the Community then existed, all that happened in the subsequent 15 years could well have been avoided.
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Though it is argued by some that defence is an aim of the Community in its guise of Western European Union—the Six plus ourselves—others may say that there is no need for it because there will be no civil war again within Europe because of the balance of the super-Powers under whose protection one or other part of Europe is resting at present. To one brought up in the 'twenties that argument is unacceptable. I believe that we still have a long way to go before we can maintain that there is not likely to be another war in Western Europe.
To me, therefore, defence, with the political stability that goes with it, must be based on closer economic co-operation and larger units. For this country, the Commonwealth is not a starter; it must be Europe. That means an enlarged Community—not just the present Six, but the Six plus the four candidate countries. I believe that such a unit could hold its own in a world of larger units: North America, the Soviets, Japan—which by the end of the decade will be the third super Power—China, with a population of 1,000 million and a nuclear Power by the end of the century.
Beyond that I look to Europe as one of President Kennedy's ideal of the twin pillars of Europe and the North Atlantic in the North Atlantic Alliance; and beyond that possibly to N.A.F.T.A.—a free trade area out and beyond that concept. To my mind that can be based only on a close association of this country with Western Europe in the Community, and the trade that we shall build.
Trade, industry and defence have been referred to by a number of speakers in greater detail than I am able to do. It is worth pointing out that the Confederation of British Industry report said that on balance it was to our advantage to join the Community. Knowing some of the hard-headed men who must have written that report, I believe that that may be an understatement of our advantage. From certain commercial activities from which I earn my living, I have no doubt that we are moving into a world in which it can be to the great advantage of this country and Western Europe that we should work more closely together.
This is also true on the financial side of working towards agreed monetary policies, as adumbrated in some ways by

1217
the Werner Plan, always within existing international monetary and economic organisations, such as the I.M.F., O.E.C.D. and so on. This is a vast subject not immediately concerned with the present negotiations, but, as the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Albu), who is an expert, pointed out, and as I have often felt, this subject needs a psychologist rather than an economist or a politician.
I come to the three main points which my right hon. and learned Friend said constituted the negotiation as it now is. The first concerns Community finance and the size of the United Kingdom's contribution to the Community's budget. This is much to technical and exclusive a subject for me to venture into suggestions on the Floor of the House of Commons, and I leave it to my right hon. and learned Friend and the very able officials with him through the ordinary process of negotiation to produce an agreement satisfactory to all so far as we can see ahead. I find it difficult to look beyond 1972, and 1978 is another world to me, and I am not being morbid, I hope, when I say that.
Secondly, there is sugar. I should like to take the time of the House by saying that this is a particular interest of mine, because just after the war I was chairman of the British Empire Producers Organisation, as it was then called, a post which my hon. Friend the Member for Wembley, South (Sir R. Russell) has held with such distinction for the last decade with such advantage for our Commonwealth producers.
My Australian deputy, Mr. Watson, the representatives of South Africa, the West Indies and Mauritius, got together and worked out what became the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement. We took it to the right hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Gordon Walker) and the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Bottomley). They worked on it and made it an inter-Governmental agreement and from that it became the International Sugar Agreement. That is nearly 25 years ago, and that agreement has served a useful purpose.
But much has changed since then. There are more economic methods of extracting sugar from beet. However, as a number of hon. Members have said,
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sugar is still an important item in the balance of payments of many developing countries. As has been said, the Six, and especially the French, have done much to help not only their former dependent territories but other developing countries by associated status. I am confident that they will see the importance of United Kingdom help to those territories for which this country was responsible in the past. At the risk of being called a neo-colonialist, I hope that they will see that we are asking for our dependent territories what has already been granted to those of the French.
Thirdly, there are New Zealand dairy products. This, too, is partly a matter of diversification from former markets. This is a vital interest to a small, if highly productive, country. I cannot believe, when there is such a world shortage of meat and proteins of all sorts, that, if time is given, markets for the products of New Zealand cannot be found. South-East Asia, which is near at hand with 350 million consumers, should be one area, but there is Europe, too. It was the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, East, then Minister, who, three or four years ago, through commercial and Governmental channels, started plans to help our New Zealand Marketing Board friends to diversify the sale of meat products, particularly beef, into the European markets. Time is needed to develop these outlets, but I believe that time can be found if the members of the Community see that this, too, is an economy which depends on the one commodity, dairy produce.
I want now to say a brief word on these words "federal" and "federation". Although there are many apprehensions in the country and even in this House which need to be allayed, at the present stage this is a false issue. What is an unwarranted cause of apprehension is that some feel that there is a plan among members of the Six and even among some hon. Members of this House to establish a federation in Europe at an early date, and that there is some scheme for a blueprint of a federal constitution as established in the United States in 1785. It took those wise men 10 years in those days to think out their constitution. Criticism of it comes not from this side of the Atlantic but from the other. But the remarkable fact is not

1219
how badly that constitution works but how well, after the changes of the last 200 years. The difficulty about it is that it did not give enough room for change and flexibility.
At present, there are many of us in the enlarged Community who think of institutions which may be valuable to fill the needs of what we hope will be a 10-member Community in the years ahead. In the meantime, unanimity is still the rule. The Council of Ministers is still in charge, and all action is based on a respect for sovereignty of individual States, as set out in the Brussels Treaty. As a number of hon. Members have said already, will anyone dare say that France, even after General de Gaulle left the stage, is any less sovereign than when he was there or in the years before? Clearly, however, every treaty or international agreement takes a little away from the 19th century concept of independence.
I have not sufficient time to comment on our parliamentary associations, the Council of Europe and others, where so many Ministers, Members of this House and elsewhere, and officials of the House and of the Government have played such an important part in working our democratic institutions. All the proposals at
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present being pursued at these various assemblies assume that Europe will associate ever more closely one day.
The only question is who and on what exact terms are to be the new members. All expect it to be within the competence and wisdom of national Ministers of the Six, with their officials and my right hon. Friend and the Commission, to find reasonable terms acceptable to all for the four to join the enlarged Community.
In commercial terms, it must be a merger and not a takeover. It must not and will not be a takeover. We must have terms which are acceptable. The economic price can be too high. It is difficult always to evaluate defence and political advantages in economic terms.
I wish my right hon. Friend, the latest in a line of distinguished negotiators, the best of luck. I hope that, without much further delay, he will find acceptable solutions in these negotiations and allow us to look beyond the economic hurdles to freedom and peace which inspire the ideal of a united Europe.
Mr. Tim Fortescue: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  HOSPITAL ENDOWMENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  HOSPITAL ENDOWMENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL
    New Clause No. 1

      DUTY OF TRUST TO OBTAIN ADVICE ON INVESTMENT
      (1) It shall be the duty of the Trust to obtain advice on the investment of any property held by them under this Act from a person whom the Trust reasonably believe to be qualified to give such advice by his ability in and practical experience of financial matters.
      (2) For the purposes of the foregoing subsection, the advice referred to therein may be obtained from a person other than an officer or servant of the Trust on such terms as may be agreed between the Trust and that person.—[Mr. Edward Taylor.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      11.0 p.m.
      The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Education, Scottish Office (Mr. Edward Taylor): I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
      This is one of several new Clauses and Amendments which we are proposing following the helpful suggestions made by hon. Members opposite in Committee. The Clause deals with an important matter which was raised by the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross). In Committee—it is columns 207–8 of the OFFICIAL REPORT—I promised to look again at the provisions in paragraph 3 of the Schedule relating to the appointment of agents to advise the Trust on investments. We thought that it might be desirable to be a little more specific, and I have, on reflection, come to the conclusion that the best way to proceed would be to insert this new Clause and delete the corresponding paragraph in the Schedule.
      The Clause makes it obligatory for the Trust to obtain advice on investment from an expert in these matters. It leaves it open to the Trust to decide whether this person should be employed as an officer or servant of the Trust—who, in practice, would be the secretary—or be an adviser who would be specially appointed on terms to be agreed. If he is
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      an officer of the Trust, his terms of appointment will be covered by regulations made under Clause 7(2)(c).
      The arrangements we now propose are consistent with the recommendation of the Working Party that the Trust should be required to employ as investment manager and secretary an individual or firm skilled in the management of investment money. The only difference is that we are allowing the Trust to employ the expert without necessarily making him its secretary. We think that the Trust, which will comprise members with financial skills, should be allowed to judge which of these alternatives will suit its arrangements better.
      Mr. Neil Carmichael: I thank the Under-Secretary of State for taking note of the points which we raised in Committee. I am sure that he will agree that it is evident from the Amendments and new Clauses which he has put down that, although our proceedings went on longer than he might have wished, our labours in Standing Committee were not in vain.
      The new Clause is the tidiest and best way of meeting the point which we raised in this connection, and I should advise my right hon. and hon. Friends to accept it.
      Question put and agreed to.
      Clause read a Second time and added to the Bill.

    New Clause No. 2

      AUDIT OF TRUST ACCOUNTS
      (1) The accounts of the Trust shall be audited annually by an auditor appointed by the Trust.
      (2) No person shall be qualified to be appointed auditor under this section unless he is a member of one or more of the following bodies—

      (a) the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland;

      (b) the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales;

      (c) the Association of Certified and Corporate Accountants;

      (d) the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland;

      (e) any other body of accountants established in the United Kingdom and for the time being recognised for the purposes of section 161(1)(a) of the Companies Act 1948 by the Secretary of State;

      1223
      but a Scottish firm may be so appointed if each of the partners therein is qualified to be so appointed.—[Mr. Edward Taylor.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      Mr. Edward Taylor: I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
      Since the Committee stage, we have been asked by the bodies mentioned in the new Clause, through their Parliamentary agents, to insert this provision in the Bill, following a number of precedents, including, in particular, an amendment made to Section 124 of the Education (Scotland) Act 1962 by Section 27(1) and paragraph 35 of Schedule 2 to the Education (Scotland) Act, 1969.
      We believe that it is inconceivable that the Trust would appoint an auditor who was not qualified in these terms, but, in view of those recent precedents and the amount of funds involved, we think it desirable to put the matter beyond doubt.
      The Secretary of State exercising the function of recognition of auditors under Section 161(1)(a) of the Companies Act, 1948 will, in practice, be the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. In the circumstances, we have thought it best to include all the references to audit in a new Clause. As a consequence of subsection (1), the reference to audit presently contained in Clause 1(4) will be deleted by the next Amendment.
      Mr. Carmichael: Again, I must thank the hon. Gentleman for taking up some of the points that were raised during the Committee stage. However, there are two points on this Clause about which I am a little concerned. The first concerns the last two lines which read:
      "but a Scottish firm may be so appointed if each of the partners therein is qualified to be so appointed."
      I understand that these words are necessary because there is a difference in the law relating to accountants in Scotland as against those in England, but I should be grateful if the hon. Gentleman could confirm that. Secondly, if this Amendment is thought to be necessary, may I ask whether it will be possible at some stage to make a similar Amendment to the 1953 Act which is considerably amended by this Bill?
      Mr. Taylor: I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his very interesting questions on this new clause. On the fist point, I can assure him that the word-
      1224
      ing of the Clause is the standard form, which has been introduced in recent Scottish legislation because of our special Scottish situation. On the second and, perhaps, more important point of whether we should amend the 1953 Act, the position is that we have been inserting Clauses like this in recent legislation at the request of the professional organisations. Of course, in all such matters it has been the normal practice for qualified persons from these organisations to be so appointed.
      I can certainly give the hon. Gentleman an assurance that, if we received an approach from the professional organisations, proposing that such a provision should be inserted in previous legislation such as the 1953 Act, then we should certainly give it sympathetic consideration when a suitable opportunity arose. I hope that with those explanations the hon. Gentleman and the House will be able to accept the new Clause.
      Mr. William Ross: Since this is being done not at the desire of the Government, but in order to placate the professional organisations, and since the Bill includes Amendments to the 1953 Act, I should have thought it was only right to make a similar Amendment there. Otherwise, it would appear that the Amendment to this Bill is not really necessary. I do not have the slightest doubt that even without this Amendment we should still get qualified auditors. It is interesting that the Government found it necessary to introduce this Amendment, bearing in mind that under the first new Clause the Trust has
      "to obtain advice on the investment of any property held by them … from a person whom the Trust reasonably believe to be qualified".
      There is no guidance given as to what should be the qualification in respect of the professional adviser. It is difficult to understand why it is necessary to insert this provision here, but not to apply it to the 1953 Act which set up the Hospital Research Trust unless somebody asks for it. It would be as well to show initiative and to make the Amendment in the earlier Act, if it is considered necessary here. But I raise no objection to the new Clause.
      Question put and agreed to.
      Clause read a Second time and added to the Bill.

    Clause 1

      SCOTTISH HOSPITAL TRUST
      Mr. Edward Taylor: I beg to move Amendment No. 1, in page 2, line 1, leave out from 'cause' to 'an' in line 2. The Amendment is consequential on new Clause 2, which provides that the accounts of the Trust shall be audited annually.
      Amendment agreed to.
      Mr. Edward Taylor: I beg to move Amendment No. 2, in page 2, line 3, at end insert:
      Provided that the Trust shall give reasonable access to the accounts to Boards of Management and Regional Hospital Boards.
      The Amendment results from a very important point raised in Committee by the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross). We were impressed by his argument, and have accordingly tabled the Amendment, which will enable Boards to have access to the Trust accounts so that they may obtain information about items in which they have an interest.
      I undertook in Committee, as reported at columns 11–13 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of the Committee proceedings, that we would examine the matter and make whatever arrangements were appropriate. We had thought that if specific provision was required it could be made in regulations under Clause 7(2). But in view of what the right hon. Gentleman said we felt on reflection that it would be better that the right of access should be provided once and for all in the Bill.
      I hope that with that explanation the House will be prepared to accept the Amendment.
      Mr. Ross: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the Amendment, and commend to him further the process of consideration and reflection that has produced this worthy improvement.
      Amendment agreed to.

    Clause 3

      POWERS OF THE TRUST
      Mr. Edward Taylor: I beg to move Amendment No. 3, in page 3, line 26, leave out 'and administer' and insert:
      'administer and dispose of'.
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      The Amendment results from a point raised in Committee by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Woodside (Mr. Carmichael). It specifically enables the Trust to dispose of any property it may receive in the future. It was pointed out in Committee that legacies and donations to the Trust might include heritable property. The working party had expressed the view that this type of property was not in general a very suitable type of investment for the Trust to hold, and Clause 2(4) provides for heritable property in the relevant endowments to be dealt with as may be determined in any particular case.
      I undertook in Committee, as reported at column 122 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of the Committee proceedings, to consider whether, as the Bill stood, the Trust had the appropriate powers in relation to heritable property received under paragraph (f). I now think, in view of what was said by the hon. Gentleman then, that for the avoidance of any doubt disposal should be expressly provided for. The Amendment will also extend to any other type of property received by the Trust under this paragraph.
      This is another example where, after further reflection on what was said in Committee, we have introduced an Amendment to cater for the point raised.
      Mr. Carmichael: There was confusion about heritable and other property, and I think that the Amendment clears it up. There should be a very clear distinction, and the Trust should have the power to dispose of property, since we do not want it to become involved in large-scale landowning. I am very pleased that the Minister has moved the Amendment.
      Amendment agreed to.
      Mr. Taylor: I beg to move Amendment No. 4, in page 3, line 30, at end insert:
      (g) to give advice to a Board of Management or a Regional Hospital Board relating to the investment or management of any such endowment or income as is referred to in paragraph (e) of this section and which is not transferred to the Trust under section 4(1) of this Act, and to recover any expenses reasonably incurred by them in giving such advice from the Board concerned.
      In Committee, the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Robert Hughes) raised the very interesting suggestion that it might be right to enable the Trust to

      1227
      give advice on the management of endowments still retained by boards after the new legislation took effect. This was a new point which did not arise directly from the Bill. We promised to look into it, and we now accept that it is very valid. The Amendment simply makes it clear that the powers of the Trust include the giving of advice on this matter.
      I think that the hon. Gentleman will accept that it is necessary and reasonable that where the Trust is to provide such a service it should not be out of pocket in so doing. That would in effect penalise all the boards from which funds are transferred to the Trust. Provision for recovery of expenses is, therefore, included.
      This is also consistent with the provisions in Clause 6(1) that the expenses of the Trust should be deducted from the total income of relevant endowments before this is distributed in accordance with schemes to be made and, putting in that one proviso, we accept that this is an interesting and valid addition to the Bill. In those circumstances, I hope the House will accept the Amendment.
      Amendment agreed to.

    Clause 4

      ADMINISTRATION OF TRUST
      11.15 p.m.
      Mr. Edward Taylor: I beg to move Amendment No. 5, in Clause 4, page 3, line 32, after 'may', insert 'by agreement'.
      If it is agreeable to the House, I wonder if it would be possible to consider this with Amendment No. 6, in page 3, line 34, after 'behalf', insert:
      'subject to any terms or conditions set out in the agreement'.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: If that is convenient.
      Mr. Taylor: In Committee it was pointed out by the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Robert Hughes) that it might be desirable to spell out the right of boards to withdraw from the Trust endowments which they had transferred to it voluntarily under Clause 3(e).
      We agreed to ensure that the Bill left no room for doubt on this point and the Amendment has this purpose. Rather
      1228
      than make a statutory rule which would have to apply to every case, we thought we should try to adopt the more flexible arrangements of leaving it to the Trust and the Board concerned to agree the terms and conditions under which these voluntary arrangements are made.
      I understood there was a little doubt about the point and I hope that the words proposed will clear up the matter and that the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North will feel that we have introduced suitable Amendments to deal with the point he made.
      Mr. Robert Hughes: I thank the Minister for bringing forward these Amendments to cover the points we raised in Committee. It makes the effort we all put in that Committee very much worth while.
      Amendment agreed to.
      Further Amendment made: No. 6, in line 34, after 'behalf', insert:
      'subject to any terms or conditions set out in the agreement'.—[Mr. Edward Taylor.]

    Clause 6

      DISTRIBUTION OF INCOME OF ENDOWMENTS
      Mr. Edward Taylor: I beg to move Amendment No. 7, in page 4, line 39, leave out subsection (4) and insert:
      (4) No scheme shall be made under this section unless a draft has been laid before Parliament and has been approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.
      Would it be possible to consider this with Amendment No. 9, in page 5, Clause 9, leave out lines 38 and 39 and insert:
      (2) No regulations shall be made under section 2(2)(c), 2(3), 4(2), or 5(2) of this Act unless a draft has been laid before Parliament and has been approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.
      (3) A statutory instrument whereby the power conferred by section 7(2) of this Act is exercised shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: If that would be agreeable to the House.
      Mr. Taylor: This Amendment follows the undertaking which I gave after a great deal of discussion in Committee to the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock, (Mr. Ross) that the affirmative Resolution procedure would be adopted for the

      1229
      schemes of distribution of endowment income made under Clause 6 and for most of the Regulations made under the Bill. Negative Resolution procedure is being retained only in respect to administrative Regulations made under Clause 7(2).
      On Amendment No. 9, the undertaking which provides for affirmative Resolution procedure for the main Regulations was given at column 162 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of the Standing Committee on 26th November, 1970, when the right hon. Member pointed out fairly that the reasons for making the procedure negative or affirmative were those of Parliamentary time. He suggested that these matters should be subject to affirmative procedure and on reflection we feel that the right hon. Gentleman was correct, so the House will have an opportunity of considering the Regulations when they are introduced.
      Mr. Ross: This is an important Amendment and I am grateful to the Government. Involved here is the distribution to every single regional hospital board area in respect of the hospitals of Scotland. If anything merited affirmative Resolution procedure it was this. I have argued both for and against affirmative Resolution procedure in the past, and when I was Secretary of State I usually said "No, we cannot have that", but in this case I am glad that we have got a measure of agreement. I am sure this will equally please the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Mr. Clark Hutchison), because he has a personal interest, which I share as a Member of Parliament, about what happens to well-endowed boards of management under the new scheme.
      Equally, of course, I have considerable interests in those hospitals which are not at all well endowed but which merit a greater share in the past generosity of people who left money to various hospitals. I do not except that there will be a great deal of trouble but this procedure will give us further opportunities to see what is happening and what still needs to be done. It will also give us the opportunity, which we will be glad to take, to remind people that there is still a place for private generosity towards our hospitals, and for that alone, it will be worth while.
      1230
      I want to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Robert Hughes) for the amount of work he put into the Bill, having been a member of a regional hospital board. The Bill has benefited from his attentions.
      Mr. Michael Clark Hutchison: I agree with the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) and I am glad that the Government have introduced the Amendment. In agreeing the schemes and drawing them up, will my hon. Friend be sure to contact the hospital authorities in each case and to listen to their views with great care? Is he seeing now or in the near future the authorities who run the Infirmary in Edinburgh, because I think that they have some doubts about the Bill? I should be grateful if he would listen to their advice.
      Mr. Edward Taylor: Indeed I do accept the great importance of consultation on such matters. This was one of the main reasons why it was thought in the Committee generally appropriate that we should have the affirmative Resolution procedure in this way. It means that, in the absence of what was regarded as full consultation, a full opportunity would be available in the House for full discussion of such matters.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, South (Mr. Clark Hutchison) rightly drew my attention to some of the fears of another hospital board. I have had the opportunity to meet the board following an approach he made, and I hope that the explanations I gave at that time were satisfactory. I attach great importance to consultation and I feel that the Amendments introduce a further safeguard in this connection.
      Amendment agreed to

    Clause 7

      ADMINISTRATION OF TRUST
      Mr. Edward Taylor: I beg to move Amendment No. 8, in page 5, line 8, leave out from 'payments' to 'they' in line 11 and insert:
      'not exceeding limits to be determined from time to time by the Secretary of State from the funds of the Trusts to the members thereof in respect of any loss of earnings'.

      1231
      Once again I am in the position of paying tribute to the Opposition for the penetrating way in which they pursued our deliberations in Committee. This Amendment again follows a point raised by the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross). He raised an important point about the limitation of earnings in respect of loss of earnings. I told the Committee that while we would accept the Amendment proposed at that time for drafting purposes, we might wish to alter it.
      As it stands, the Clause is somewhat awkwardly worded. The word "prescribed" could give rise to doubt because it usually, although not necessarily, refers to prescription by means of Regulations. The appropriate method of fixing such mandatory limits from time to time is by way of administrative determination by the Secretary of State as, for example, in Section 37 of the Health Services and Public Health Act, 1968, under which rates are determined for members of health service bodies.
      The Amendment gives practical effect to the intention of the previous Amendment and goes a little further by extending the Secretary of State's powers of limitation to travelling and subsistence expenses as well as loss of earnings payments. I hope the Committee will accept the revised wording of the Amendment which was introduced in Committee by the Opposition.
      Mr. Carmichael: This Amendment is an improvement to the Bill and we feel that in all such legislation, when public money is involved, it is right that the wording should be properly tightened up so that nobody is in doubt as to how payments will be decided. This is particularly important when considering funds to be administered in the hospital services. It is important that such funds should be guarded very closely. After all, people who do voluntary work in our society are given little in the way of allowances, and so on, and it as well that it is made clear that the provisions in regard to loss of earnings should be decided by the Secretary of State.
      The Under-Secretary of State has provided exactly the right words to tighten up the payments, and in so doing has met the sentiments and intentions of the
      1232
      Opposition who moved such an Amendment in Committee.
      Amendment agreed to.

    Clause 9

      REGULATIONS
      Amendment made: No. 9, in page 5, leave out lines 38 and 39 and insert:
      (2) No regulations shall be made under section 2(2)(c), 2(3), 4(2), or 5(2) of this Act unless a draft has been laid before Parliament and has been approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.
      (3) A statutory instrument whereby the power conferred by section 7(2) of this Act is exercised shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.—[Mr. Edward Taylor.]

    Schedule

      SCOTTISH HOSPITAL TRUST
      Mr. Edward Taylor: I beg to move Amendment No. 11, in line 4, leave out from 'and' to end of line 5 and insert
      'not more than seven and not less than five other members so appointed'.
      The right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) has been liberal in his praise, for which I am grateful. I hope that he and his colleagues feel that their labours have been well rewarded. In regard to his comments, I feel that perhaps we shall have to be more conservative in the number of Amendments we accept from the Opposition or perhaps must look more carefully at them. However, I am sure our reason for accepting them has been because of the weight of arguments in Committee.
      Once again I am glad to put forward an Amendment dealing directly with a point raised by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Woodside (Mr. Carmichael). He suggested in Committee that it would be sensible to prescribe both a maximum and a minimum number of members, other than the Chairman to be appointed by the Trust.
      We have thought about this matter a great deal and we now agree that it would be appropriate, because it would make for a sensible size of the Trust. The Amendment will give effect to the proposals advanced in Committee by the hon. Member for Woodside. We agree

      1233
      that if the Trust is to be a success it should be capably managed by not too large and not too small a number of gentlemen. We fully accept the hon. Gentleman's argument. That is why we have introduced the Amendment.
      Amendment agreed to.
      11.30 p.m.
      Mr. Edward Taylor: I beg to move Amendment No. 10, in page 7, line 7, leave out paragraph 3.
      This Amendment is consequential on new Clause I which was introduced following points raised by the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross). The new Clause makes the more specific provision relating to the appointment of an investment expert which in Committee it was agreed seemed desirable. It is now thought better to provide this by a new Clause, and this paragraph of the Schedule is no longer necessary.
      Mr. Ross: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has met our wishes in this respect and has made the consequential change to deal with the earlier point. I am beginning to think he should go away on honeymoon a little more often! It has been wonderful to see his agreeable reaction to suggestions which we have put forward in respect of Bills. We will encourage him in this direction. In fact we can probably provide him with a "pair".
      Amendment agreed to.
      Motion made, and Question, That the Bill be now read the Third time, put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 55 (Third Reading) and agreed to.
      Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

  GUARDIANSHIP OF MINORS BILL [Lords]
  Order for Second Reading read.
  11.31 p.m.
  The Solicitor-General (Sir Geoffrey Howe): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The House will appreciate that this is a consolidation Bill prepared under the Consolidation of Enactments (Procedure) Act, 1949, which allows only the making of minor improvements in the law, apart from pure consolidation.
  In accordance with that Statute, it has been considered by the Joint Committee of both Houses, which has reported, having made certain Amendments which seemed to it necessary to improve the form of the Bill to bring it into conformity with the existing law. The Committee considers that the Bill, as amended, is pure consolidation and represents the existing law.
  The Committee drew the attention of Parliament to Clause 8 of the Bill, which contains a reference to an antique statute of 1660. It recognised that that statute had to be referred to in the Bill because it retained a residual implication in relation even to the present law, but the Committee regretted that that had to be so. The marginal note to that Clause has been altered to make it look as unimportant as possible in contrast to the original marginal note.
  In addition, the House may like to know that the repeal or other disappearance of the statute of 1660 is currently under consideration by the Law Commission to see whether it can be disposed of.
  The other matter which the Bill finally makes clear is that infants in this sphere are hereafter minors. Section 12 of the Family Law Reform Act states that infants hereafter may be called minors, which was an implementation of the recommendation of the Latey Committee. This means that we have said goodbye to what used to be known as "G of I" proceedings, which are now presumably "G of M" proceedings.
  The Bill does no more than consolidate. The only question is whether the House is agreeable to such consolidation, which will in fact simplify and make the law on this important subject more accessible

  1235
  and more amenable to such reforms as hon. Members on both sides have from time to time canvassed in the underlying principles to this part of the law.
  11.34 p.m.
  Mr. S. C. Silkin: I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for his explanation of the Bill. I had half-expected, at this relatively early hour of the evening, that, fresh from the last night or two, he might have been tempted to give us a rather lengthier exegesis of the Measure and, indeed, find it refreshing to escape from the turbulence of the waters of the last couple of days into the relative calm of this uncontroversial Measure.
  I was rather looking forward to a lecturette on sockage tenure, but I gather that that is not to be. However, it is a relief to hear that steps are being taken, and very properly, by the Law Commission, as advocated by my noble Friend, Lord Gardiner, in another place, to bring up to date the powers conferred by the Tenures Abolition Act, 1660, which is referred to in Clause 1, and I hope that that progress will be rapid. I hope, too, that there will be progress on the other paragraphs of the Report to which my noble Friend referred.
  As the Solicitor-General said, it is a little sad to say goodbye to the "guardianship of infants", but I am sure that "minor" and "minority" are more appropriate than "infant" and "infancy". I am only a little sorry that we have not gone to the logic of the terms used and talked about "major" and "majority" rather than "ceases to be a minor" which the Solicitor-General will find in certain parts of the Bill. However, perhaps that is a pleasure to come.
  I conclude by expressing the gratitude of this side of the House to those who have undertaken the task of consolidating a very much larger number of Bills than one usually finds being done. I think that there are parts of 12 different Acts in this Measure, and I express my thanks to the Joint Committee which performed its task so admirably.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. Clegg.]
  Committee to-morrow.

  SCHOOL CHILDREN (SANDWICH MEALS)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Clegg.]
  11.37 p.m.
  Mr. Ray Carter: Before I embark on putting my case this evening I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) on his appointment. We are political opponents of long standing. We have agreed on occasions, but on the vast majority of occasions we have had to differ. However, I know that the hon. Gentleman's appointment has been obtained by virtue of the fact that he has been extremely industrious in relation to education matters, and I wish him every success in his appointment. I hope that at the end of what I have to say and what he has to say the score on agreements and disagreements will be altered in favour of agreements.
  The subject that I wish to bring to the attention of the House is the proposal of the Birmingham education authority to make a charge on those children who eat sandwiches at school instead of having a cooked meal. The proposal, though I must admit that it has not been finally decided upon, is that a child will pay about 1s. per week should he eat sandwiches. In my opinion, this is a proposal which the whole House will wish to condemn. Only last week, it was condemned by the National Union of Teachers, who have asked their members not to collect.
  In addition, the proposal has been condemned by Professor John Yudkin, head of the department of nutrition at Queen Elizabeth College of London University, a man of immense authority in this field, who has suggested that a section of children could end up with a "coke and doughnut" substitute for a hot meal at the middle of the day. I gather from the letters which I have received and the publicity which the proposals have gained that it has been condemned by everyone

  1237
  who cares for the health and welfare of our children. The root cause of this proposal is the Government's action. It is a direct result of their proposal to increase school meals charges.
  To support what I say I would quote the Birmingham Evening Mail of Tuesday, 24th November, after the Chairman of the Education Committee, Alderman Dawes, made public discussions which had been held within the committee:
  "It was said, and it has not been denied, that the review is being made in the light of the Government's proposal to increase the school meals charge and the likelihood that many more parents will want to send their children with sandwiches as a result."
  Alderman Dawes was merely taking off at a point already reached by the Wolverhampton Education Committee, which for some months now has levied a charge of £1 per term on those children who eat sandwiches at school.
  After that piece of publicity, I was contacted as the Member for Birmingham, Northfield by a number of parents who were very concerned at the proposals. As a result, I put down a Question and in an early reply to me and the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. David Clark) the Secretary of State said that the charge was not illegal. I was very disturbed at that reply, because I should have liked the Secretary of State to say that she was not in favour of its being levied, but nothing of the kind came forth. The right hon. Lady also said that the matter would be referred to a working party.
  On the question of illegality, I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that, when the proposal was recently debated by Birmingham Education Committee, the Clerk to the Council said—once again I quote from a newspaper report—
  "… that he did not believe that it would be possible and within the law for the Education Authority to make this charge."
  I should like some reassurance on this point.
  In my opinion, the charge is the bitter harvest which some sections of the community are now reaping as a result of the Government's economic measures last year, and it is up to the Government to remedy the situation. I would urge the Minister to request Birmingham and other education authorities to reconsider, and, further, that all schools, within Birming-
  1238
  ham and every other education authority, should make it possible for children to eat sandwiches at school. Apart from the fact that some authorities are proposing to levy a charge, many schools will not allow children to eat sandwiches at school.
  I am not suggesting that the Government are responsible for every child who wants to eat sandwiches. That is not so. Some children prefer sandwiches. Only last week, I had a number of letters from parents who were less concerned about the charge than about the fact that some head teachers would not allow the children to eat sandwiches at school at all. This whole subject of school meals could be tackled through the working party and advice could be offered to local education authorities.
  I make this appeal on behalf of a great many parents and children, but particularly on behalf of those who, for economic reasons, cannot afford a cooked meal. The Minister may say that no child need go without a cooked meal because those who cannot afford it can claim the money back via the education authority. However, as we know, many parents are reluctant to claim free meals. In any event, it is divisive that some children should be asked to pay and others not.
  The ideal situation would be a free school meal for all, but we do not live in an ideal world. In the absence of that element of idealism, at least children who cannot afford school meals should be allowed to eat their sandwiches in the places that they would normally occupy when eating school meals, and should not have to pay as a result.
  In the economic debate at the beginning of this Parliament the Prime Minister said that he believed in one nation. The vast majority of my constituents believe in one nation, too, but when issues like this crop up, one tends to see divisions created which nobody likes. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will indicate tonight that this iniquitous proposal will be dropped.
  I have put the case in an unemotional way because it is not a subject about which we should get heated. However, I have received a tremendous response from people not only in Birmingham but from many parts of the country as a

  1239
  result of the interest that this subject has aroused. In this connection, I praise the Sun newspaper for giving prominent publicity to this issue.
  I urge the Minister to weigh up my remarks carefully and to give an indication that this proposal will not be carried out in Birmingham and that elsewhere this charge will be withdrawn wherever it is applied.
  11.48 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. William van Straubenzee): The hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Carter) began his speech, which I gladly acknowledge was made with a careful lack of emotion, with a kind and courteous reference to myself and, on a personal note, I warmly reciprocate. I am not sure whether he is still one of my constituents, but I have always hoped that one day I should learn that he had voted for me in a General Election, which shows that I am full of hope.
  I am grateful to Mr. Speaker for giving the hon. Gentleman time in which to raise this matter because, as there have been some misapprehensions and misunderstandings about the position, I welcome this opportunity to get the record clear.
  The hon. Gentleman was right to say that in recent years there have been certain factors which have tended to lead to an increase in the number of children being provided with sandwiches at school. Perhaps I might remind him of a very recent factor which has not been often commented on. I am advised that, for example, one of the results of the local government manual workers' strike which, unfortunately, in some parts of the country led to the withdrawal of school meal facilities, was that, understandably, children were forced into the sandwich habit and that a number of them have stayed with it. It illustrates, I think, how in a strike situation like that people will change their habits, first because they have to and then because they find that they like to.
  It is also perfectly true, as the hon. Gentleman said, that a small number of local education authorities have been considering making a charge for this
  1240
  facility. I should not be exaggerating at all if I said that it is only a handful. As far as I am aware, none is actually making a charge. The hon. Gentleman mentioned Wolverhampton. I understand the present position there to be that Wolverhampton is leaving this decision to the school governors and headmasters and that none is actually making a charge.
  The hon. Gentleman referred, and quite fairly, to Birmingham. Again I am advised, not being in any way personally responsible, that this was an idea being floated in one of the authority's recent sub-committee meetings. There was no firm proposal concerning it, and I am told that Birmingham has decided that nothing should be done pending receipt of advice from the Secretary of State and from the associations. It is on that that I can, perhaps, help the hon. Gentleman.
  I must just make a reference to the legality of the charge. I do so with some reluctance as a lawyer myself, but particularly so in the sense that I think it very unfortunate in a warmly human matter like school meals to give an appearance that all one is concerned with is legality or otherwise. The hon. Gentleman raised the question perfectly fairly, but I feel that some commentators and some organs of the Press have been very unfair to my right hon. Friend. All that my right hon. Friend did on 17th December was to give a direct answer to a direct question. The hon. Gentleman will remember that the right hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Central (Mr. Edward Short), the former Secretary of State, asked my right hon. Friend a direct question and that she gave him a direct answer.
  The situation here—I hope that I can give the hon. Gentleman a very clear answer—is that the advice given to my right hon. Friend on the question of legality is that if an authority provides facilities for pupils to consume their own food it may charge for them. The legality of the charge, however, is a matter for the authority which intends to impose it, and my right hon. Friend has no power to give an authoritative ruling on the matter. The situation on 17th December was that my right hon. Friend was asked to express an opinion, and she accordingly informed the House of the

  1241
  advice that she had received. That is, as accurately as I can give it, the present legal position, but, as I have said, I should be very reluctant to feel, and I know that my right hon. Friend would be very reluctant to feel, that we were giving the impression of looking at this matter only from a cold, legalistic point of view.
  The fact is that the authorities themselves, the governors, managers, headmasters and headmistresses and the teaching profession as a whole are very much against the practice of the bringing of sandwiches to school, and for my own part I put myself in their camp. Their reasons have nothing to do with cost. The sort of reasons they adduce I would put in this way. I do not think I know of any well-run school—and such schools are in the vast majority—where the midday meal is not an integral part of the educational process in the widest sense. I believe that it is so regarded by the majority of the teaching profession. Of course, in addition to that, for a great many children it is of important nutritional value.
  I know that if at this point the hon. Gentleman were to interrupt, he would say, "That is all very well so far as it goes, but you are increasing charges" that is true—"and as a result you will increase the likelihood of families providing sandwiches for children." He and I clearly look at this from differing points of view. It was for the reason that the statement which announced the increase in charges was a package that it included the provision that the point at which remission of charges would be allowed would be increased. I remind the hon. Gentleman that families now drawing supplementary benefit will continue to qualify before and after the increase.
  As an illustration of the way in which the new scale will work I take the example of a family with three children at school. If after income tax, National Insurance, rent and rates and certain other outgoings detailed in the regulations the breadwinner is left with £16 a week net, the family would qualify for remission for all three children. In my view, so it should. That calculation probably represents a gross income of between £22 and £23 a week.
  I appreciate the difference between the hon. Member and myself, but I hope
  1242
  that more parents who might well benefit and be entitled to remission in whole or in part will make inquiries before the increased charges come into force. The hon. Member gave this part of his case away when he conceded, very fairly, that we did not live in a perfect world. If we do not and if we cannot have free school meals for all, about which principle I do not in any way comment, it seems that the right way in which to proceed is to have careful and generous scales of remission for the families we want to help, and this is directly relevant to families who might otherwise, for what they would think to be economic reasons, provide the children with sandwiches instead.
  I realise, of course, having said that, that it is the people next up the scale, that is to say, those who do not get any kind of remission, who might be tempted. However, I do not believe—and here I agree with the hon. Member—that by any means all those who exercise the practice of bringing sandwiches to school are doing so for economic reasons. First, there are children who simply do not like institutional food of any kind. This is a slightly old-fashioned view. Some parents are a little weak on this. I suppose that I take this view because I was brought up always to eat what was put before me—the results are for all to see—but personally I still think in principle that that is a good procedure.
  Secondly, there are young people who simply prefer it that way. I was the chairman of the governors of a voluntary-aided school in South London, not a plush part of London, and there were always a significant number of boys who brought sandwiches every day, for no reason connected with economics. I used to look at this with some care and attention in case that was the reason. But they frankly preferred it that way. Curiously enough, they happened to be the rather intellectual boys, although I think that it had grown into a certain amount of "clubbery".
  Mr. Carter: But it is in the band just above those who qualify for free school meals that we hit the problem. It is because of that that the chairman of the education authority issued the statement that, with the increase in school

  1243
  meal charges, the numbers taking sandwiches would increase in that band.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: That is quite fair. Incidentally, if they believe that it is economically beneficial, they would be wise to think about it. I have not time to give the full quotation, but in an article in the Teacher of 8th January doubts are cast on whether it is economically or significantly cheaper to provide school children with sandwiches.
  I do not think that the bringing of sandwiches can be compared with school meals. But it must be reasonable that, if there are parents who wish their children to bring sandwiches, they should be free to do so. In this country, we do not seek to impose this kind of condition upon parents.
  If they wish to do so, is it not reasonable that, within the resources available to schools, authorities provide conditions as nearly approximating as possible for the eating of sandwiches as are provided for those taking school dinners? That could mean supervision, a place at a table; it might mean glasses and cutlery; and there are circumstances in which the provision of these conditions could involve a local authority in additional expense, at any rate if the practice became very widespread.
  The hon. Gentleman reminded me that, on 17th November, my right hon. Friend said that she would consult local authority associations to see whether any general guidance could usefully be given to local education authorities about charging for the facilities needed to ensure the conditions that I have described; in other words, the conditions
  1244
  similar to the child who is having the school dinner.
  I am able to announce, which is why I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising this matter, that there have now been discussions with representatives of the associations and, in the light of those discussions, my right hon. Friend will shortly be advising authorities not to impose a charge of this kind in present circumstances.
  The significance of my words "in present circumstances" is that, for reasons that I have explained, if the practice were to become very widespread, it is possible that some local authorities might find themselves with a significant rise in expenditure. If that were so, it might be necessary at that time to review what I have just said.
  I have made clear my personal view and the importance which I attach to the school dinner. In this, I speak with the authority of my right hon. Friend. But, in present circumstances, it is my right hon. Friend's intention to give the advice referred to because the consultations have now taken place.
  In the light of what I have said, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will feel that this has been a profitable evening.
  Mr. Carter: I want to thank the hon. Gentleman for what he said. I am sure that it will give a great deal of reassurance to those parents and children in Birmingham who might have suffered had the charge been made.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at five minutes past Twelve o'clock.

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EMPLOYMENT
  Construction Workers
  Construction Workers
  Earnings (Wales)
  Earnings (Wales)
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Kenya Executive Council (Records)
  Kenya Executive Council (Records)
  Rhodesia
  Rhodesia
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Charitable and Sporting Organisations (Income)
  Charitable and Sporting Organisations (Income)
  Accidents in Fog (M1)
  Accidents in Fog (M1)
  Prisoners (Mental Abnormality)
  Prisoners (Mental Abnormality)
  Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act, 1953 (Section 1)
  Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act, 1953 (Section 1)
  Unlicensed Vehicles
  Unlicensed Vehicles
  Police Escort (Mr. George Best)
  Police Escort (Mr. George Best)
  Public Houses, Wales (Sunday Opening)
  Public Houses, Wales (Sunday Opening)
  Prisoners (Parole)
  Prisoners (Parole)
SOCIAL SERVICES
  Nigel Ubanowicz
  Nigel Ubanowicz
WALES
  Farm Amalgamations Scheme
  Farm Amalgamations Scheme
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Metalliferous Mining Industry
  Metalliferous Mining Industry
  Estate Duty Rebates (Agricultural Land)
  Estate Duty Rebates (Agricultural Land)
  Nationalised Industries
  Nationalised Industries
  Purchase Tax (Gramophone Records)
  Purchase Tax (Gramophone Records)
  Wealth Tax
  Wealth Tax
  Finance Act, 1968 (Assessments to Special Charge)
  Finance Act, 1968 (Assessments to Special Charge)
  Ulster Defence Regiment (Tax)
  Ulster Defence Regiment (Tax)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Rochester.
Several Lords—Took the Oath.

ROYAL COMMISSION ON THE CONSTITUTION
LORD ILFORD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when they expect to reeive the Report of the Royal Commission on the Constitution.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD WINDLESHAM): My Lords, it is not yet possible to say when the Commission's work will be completed.
LORD ILFORD: My Lords, thanking my noble friend for that Answer, may I ask him whether, in view of the fact that the Commission has now been at work for nearly two years, and the importance of the matters said to rest on its decision, he will use what efforts he can to expedite the Report?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, this is a far-reaching inquiry of very wide implications, as the noble Lord said. The Commission was set up in April, 1969, and held its first meeting in the same month. It has since received written evidence from a large number of organisations and individuals, and has heard oral evidence in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.

A.66 ROAD IMPROVEMENTS EXPENDITURE
2.38 p.m.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is (a) the approximate total expenditure by the Central Government and the County Council since January 1, 1963, on work on the A.66 between Workington and the junction with the M.6 motorway; and (b) what is the estimated approximate total cost of the remaining work on this road including work to bypass Cockermouth and Keswick in order to complete the Department of the Environment's plans to develop the road for heavy traffic at high speeds; and (c) what mileage through the National Park do they propose shall be dual-carriageway.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (LORD SANDFORD): My Lords, the total expenditure since 1963 on schemes costing more than £100,000 each has been about £1·9 million. Present estimates put the cost of the comprehensive programme of improvements announced in 1969 to provide a good quality road with at least a 24-foot single carriageway at £11·6 million. The total length of road within the National Park which is to be improved is 13·6 miles; and of that distance, 4·25 miles will be dual-carriageway.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, in thanking my noble friend for that reply, may I ask him to confirm, as I did not hear the first figure, that it was £.1·9 million.
LORD SANDFORD: Yes, my Lords; that is correct.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, secondly, can my noble friend confirm that it does include the cost of the Keswick bypass?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, the first part of my Answer refers to the first part of the noble Lord's Question, which relates to the expenditure so far. The second part of his Question relates to the estimates for the whole programme

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of improvements, which includes the Keswick bypass.
LORD INGLEWOOD: Yes; that is what I meant.
VISCOUNT ROCHDALE: My Lords, can my noble friend say whether or to what extent any of the projects which have already been carried out and are included in the first part of my noble friend's Answer will be proved to be redundant and a waste of money if the projects referred to in the second part of the Question are in fact carried out?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot, off the cuff, give the noble Viscount the answer to that question, but I will certainly write and let him know.

BUSINESS
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I should like to inform your Lordships that at a suitable moment after 3.30 p.m. my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn will making a Statement on the Post Office strike.

THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND: DISESTABLISHMENT PROPOSAL
2.41 p.m.
LORD GRANTCHESTER LORD GRANTCHESTER rose to move that, in the opinion of this House, the time has come to consider whether the Church of England should continue to be established, and that a reasonable way of terminating establishment would me—

(a) for the Crown to relinquish its power to appoint bishops and dignitaries;

(b) for the General Synod set up by the Measure of 1969 to be the governing body of the Church, and to have power to make appointments and to give directions on Church finances and management;

(c) for Church law to be no longer the law of the land but to have private status, and for the General Synod to have power to modify such law;

(d) for all Church property to be taken over by the Church Commissioners;

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(e) for existing positions in the Church (including seats in the House of Lords) to be preserved for their present holders; and

(f) for compensation to be paid, subject to arbitration, to anyone damnified by the end of establishment if he wishes to claim it;

that a Bill should be introduced on these lines without undue delay, so that Parliamentary and public opinion may be tested; and that accordingly an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying for Her consent to the introduction of such a Bill.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, although the Motion which I have the honour to move to-day is in no sense a Party issue, my noble friends have been good enough to give up a day which would have been allocated to a Liberal Motion, and I should like to express my thanks to them for so doing. As any Bill affecting the Establishment of the Church of England must involve Her Majesty's Royal Prerogative, I am following the courteous tradition of your Lordships' House in praying for Her Majesty's consent to the introduction of such a Bill. This is, no doubt, more a question of form and timing than of substance to-day, but that is of the essence of courtesy.
In my opinion these matters can only be properly discussed in the context of proposals set out in a Bill. Only so, if we are not to prejudge the issues, can the actual provisions be considered, modified or rejected, as your Lordships may wish, in due course. It seemed to me unreasonable to ask for consent for the introduction of a Bill without indicating at least that no attack, either upon the Church or upon its endowments, was in my mind. I hope no noble Lord will feel it necessary to divide the House to-day, which at this stage would appear as but a rebuff to courtesy. While on reasons for this Motion, may I offer a personal explanation in the nature of an apology for the inadequacies there must be in my presentation of so difficult and complex a subject? In mitigation, may I say that I have felt myself impelled to this course by a curious sequence of approaches, starting some ten years ago when a friend of mine, a distinguished Frenchman with whom I had often talked economics,

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urged me to give thought to new concepts of the role of the Church, the importance and urgency of which had been emphasised to him personally by Pope John XXIII. It seemed to me proper to await the conclusions reached by the Council that was being summoned by Pope John, but by 1968 I could find no more excuses for ignoring the reminders which came to me.
When I first mentioned to the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury my desire to introduce a Bill on this subject, which after many discussions I felt was necessary, he said he would feel it impossible to take part in a Second Reading debate until he had been able to study the Report of the Commission on the relations between Church and State, appointed in 1965, which he expected would be available in 1971. I understood the importance of what he said. I also readily agreed to the postponement of this Motion because the most reverend Primate considered your Lordships would wish to have had the opportunity of reading this Commission's Report. Although the Report of the Commission was published last month, I understand that there has as yet been no opportunity for full discussion on it in the General Synod. Perhaps it is not inappropriate that the first preliminary discussion on the matters raised should take place in Parliament, where responsibility still rests. There will be the opportunity for a full discussion next month in the General Synod before a Second Reading debate could take place on the Bill I should like to introduce for your Lordships' consideration. I think the wish of the most reverend Primate has been fully met.
My Lords, I am sure it will be said by some, as one of my noble friends was told recently, that a subject of this importance and complexity involving, it may be suggested, a constitutional issue, cannot be dealt with satisfactorily in a Bill presented by a Back Bench Member of this House. Yet on many occasions, Governments have shown that they welcome initiatives from the Back Benches when they do not consider that an important Party issue arises. We know they often provide the help and facilities which are necessary to make such a Bill satisfactory, and I hope that I may be
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given such assistance in due course. May I here suggest, with respect, that the constitutional issue, if there was one, distinct from the provisions of the Act of Supremacy, was quietly disposed of in 1914 when the Royal Assent was given to the Welsh Disestablishment Act.
There would be one other possible way of raising this question in your Lordship's House; that is, in a Bill sponsored by the most reverend Primate. He might hesitate, out of a sense of modesty, to include some of the provisions indicated in this Motion, which he was good enough to term very generous. Nor do I think the Report, or rather the three Reports, of the Commission to which I have referred can be of any great encouragement to him. I cannot believe he really thinks that the recommendation of the eight members or of the five would contribute to the dignity either of the State or of the Church. The plan of the eight members is for freedom for worship and doctrine while neutralising the influence of the Prime Minister on Church appointments and with complex restrictions through the continued intermingling of Church and State law, to which Chapter V and Appendix A of the Report are devoted. The plan of the five includes a naïve constitutional novelty to by-pass the Prime Minister in making Church appointments. Perhaps we can assume from the silence of the most reverend Primate to-day that he does not wish to defend either of these plans. My Lords, there was really, in my opinion, no other way of ensuring that this matter was brought urgently to the attention of your Lordships as one of pressing importance.
I do not think I need take up much time elaborating on the points set out in the Motion. The purpose of my proposals would be to transfer the government of the Church of England to representatives of that Church as a whole, meeting as the General Synod set up by the Measure of 1969. As your Lordships know, that consists of three Houses, Bishops, Clergy and Laity, and contains a big element of elected representatives. If there is a field where Her Majesty's Government should put into practice its desire for "less government" and "for withdrawal" surely this is one of the most appropriate. If there is one group of people who should be encouraged to accept responsibility for the conduct of their own affairs,

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it is the Anglican Church. The thinking behind my proposals is very similar to the plan of the third Report of the Archbishop's Commission. They would do no more than is necessary to clear the decks, if I may use this expression. The General Synod, and indeed every member of the Church of England, would be entrusted with a great and art enthralling task; to formulate its rules, regulations and procedures understandable in the language of to-day; to modernise its organisation and its institutions.
It is most important in this context for the Synod to look at, settle and keep under constant review the priorities on its funds in the light of changing habits and current needs; for example, it may be more important for a parish priest to spend time to-day talking with an individual or a group than in preparing Of delivering a fine sermon in an empty church. If the people are not coming to the Church, surely the Church has to go out to the people. The Synod will have to review and revise its liturgy in modern English to express the faith for which it stands and the mystery which is enshrined within the Church as a whole of which it is part. I know there are people who do not much like the idea of modern English in church, but I think the Revised Standard Version of the Bible has shown that modern English can be as beautiful as the Authorised Version to which we have become so accustomed.
The Synod can, I believe, take courage from the achievements of Vatican II, and the achievements of the group of Bishops in the Netherlands who, following the work of Vatican II, prepared the new Dutch Catechism and agreed to its annex. It may not be without interest to the right reverend Prelates present that, when confronted by the doubts and difficulties many serious students feel to-day, this is the book to which I have found it most helpful to refer them. I noticed the advice given in an article written for The Times by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark, that there is so much work for the Church to do that it would be wasting valuable time to occupy our thoughts with our own internal problems. They are, I suggest, with respect, more than that and cannot be wished away. I myself do not believe that the problems facing the Church of
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England will be tackled with any vigour or enthusiasm until Parliament places this responsibility firmly upon the representatives of the Church.
I have said sufficient, I think, to show that I am hoping for a more revolutionary overhaul than the Commission envisages, with the exception of Miss Valerie Pitt who makes a refreshing contribution in dissent from her more complacent colleagues. With her, I do not believe that this can come under the aegis of establishment and it was made very clear by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Stepney in a recent broadcast that this was his view. The only sense of interest or of care for the innovations of some of the more thoughtful of the younger generation appears in the appeal of Miss Valerie Pitt that the Church should
"help to build local and limited allegiances into the catholic order of the whole Body of Christ".
I used the word "innovations" for that is the way they are seen through the eyes of the Establishment. In reality they are examples of the continuous search for truth and love in the simplicity of their gospel origins. The Church is dependent for its renewal upon such movements. Over the years, and I will not go too far back, the Anglican Church has rather a dismal record of failure to stretch out a sympathetic or helping hand in time—and I emphasise "in time"—to dissidents, whether it be to a John Wesley, to a Newman or to a J. N. Darby. Vatican II has set a pattern of more forward thinking in the Roman Church.
I should not like to see any Government take advantage of the ending of Establishment to diminish the financial resources of the Church. If it finds its comparative affluence a hindrance to its spiritual influence—as some do—it can consult Her Majesty's Treasury or the Charity Commissioners. But as I have already indicated, it is desirable that the Synod, possibly through a strong committee, should exercise a much more detailed supervision over its substantial resources and ensure that these are used to rekindle a missionary zeal in its work. Nor would I like to see, on the passing of a Bill to end the Establishment, the most reverend Primate and his Bishops leave your Lordships' House abruptly feeling rejected. I am suggesting to your Lordships that no newly appointed

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Bishops should have a right by virtue of the holding of any office to sit in your Lordships' House.
In future, any special relationship by law established having been discarded, it would be for Her Majesty, on the advice of the Prime Minister of the day, to summon to this House as Life Peers, individuals of any Communion who might be considered able by virtue of their calling to advise your Lordships upon matters on which they could speak with some special knowledge. At a time when the values which are part of our heritage are under challenge, it is important, in my view, that what is relevant in these values should be defended on the broadest scale, and this is where a greater measure of unity in presenting the Church's message would be welcome. A similar recommendation is made by the Archbishops' Commission, but the maintenance of any special relationship with one Communion would make it impossible for the representatives of any other Communion to co-operate on an equal basis.
If such fundamental changes involving the devolution from the State to the Church of all matters affecting the worship and doctrine of the Church are generally acceptable, and indeed considered essential, what is left of the Establishment? The Commission itself poses this question as have several commentators upon its Report. The answer, I think, is two things. There is the divisive element of the special relationship of the State to the Church of England and the law with all the complexities to which I have already referred. Failure by the Commission to agree on the range of the change necessary in the relationship between Church and State prevented agreement on a method of selecting those suitable for high appointments in the Church. The Commission for the same reason had to ignore the second part of its terms of reference which was,
"to take account of steps to promote greater unity between the Churches".
Half the members pointed out on page 43 that the proposals of the other half would make, "reunion with anyone impossible".
Knowing that the scandal (and that is not my word) of division among Christians is probably the greatest stumbling block to the young of to-day,
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as also to many not so young, I can but express surprise that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester—and I have told the right reverend Prelate that I would ask him about this—could sign a Report which five of his colleagues on the Commission said rendered "re-union with anyone impossible". The reason would appear to be the fears of the timid, who believe that the Church of England must continue to be propped up by the State in order to mean something culturally, if not religiously, to those who are not attracted to its support. My Lords, relying not on the State but on its mission and a vision which is not expressed entirely in terms of this world, there is a field for work on the Church's doorstep.
May I be permitted to say at this point that had I not been convinced that a Bill on the lines indicated in the Motion before us was a necessary prerequisite to the search for greater unity among all Christians, I would not have asked for your Lordships' assistance to-day. In 1962, Pope John XXIII, in addressing the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, stressed that one of its principal aims should be to promote the restoration of unity among all Christians. The most reverend Primate has used similar words. No one should underrate the difficulties, but no one can deny the importance of this task to which we are all called.
My Lords, I believe that one consideration is chiefly responsible for the hesitation shown in some quarters in England, including part of the membership of the Archbishop's Commission, and I should like before I finish to face this question. It is a question raised in many letters of support which I have received. In the event of the repeal of the Act of Supremacy, which I feel sure the most reverend Primate would not wish to defend on theological grounds, what role could the Sovereign play in the Church without impeding progress towards the greater unity desired?—and these are words which were actually written to me by one leading women's organisation in the country. My answer to these inquiries has been that this will become a personal matter for consideration between Her Majesty and the Churches and that I was sure Her Majesty would wish to continue to associate herself with the life and work of the Church in England (and I stress, "in

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England") as I would prefer to refer to something bigger and more significant than any one Communion.
Her Majesty carries the title of "Defender of the Faith", which goes back to the days of a less divided Church, and perhaps this still expresses best the duty which Her Majesty owes to her Christian subjects and the gratitude and loyalty they feel to Her Majesty. It is true that we are conscious that we are divided by differences of emphasis on aspects of that faith as well as by wide differences in our understanding of its full meaning, the resolution of which we cannot at the moment foresee. We may hope, however, that in humility we may come to learn from each other.
My Lords, may I conclude my argument for the ending of the Establishment by law of the Church of England by quoting again from the broadcast interview by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Stepney, who said:
"It would mean that the Church would be free to be itself".
Only Parliament can give the Church of England this opportunity. We can do no more to help; we should do no less. So, my Lords, in the words of the Motion, I move to pray for Her Majesty's consent to the introduction of a Bill, which I should like to submit for your Lordships' consideration. I beg to move.
Moved, That, in the opinion of this House, the time has come to consider whether the Church of England should continue to be established, and that a reasonable way of terminating establishment would be—

(a) for the Crown to relinquish its power to appoint bishops and dignitaries:

(b) for the General Synod set up by the Measure of 1969 to be the governing body of the Church, and to have power to make appointments and to give directions on Church finances and management;

(c) for Church law to be no longer the law of the land but to have private status, and for the General Synod to have power to modify such law;

(d) for all Church property to be taken over by the Church Commissioners;

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(e) for existing positions in the Church (including seats in the House of Lords) to be preserved for their present holders; and

(f) for compensation to be paid, subject to arbitration, to anyone damnified by the end of establishment if he wishes to claim it;

that a Bill should be introduced on these lines without undue delay, so that Parliamentary and public opinion may be tested; and that accordingly an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying for Her consent to the introduction of such a Bill.—(Lord Grantchester.)
3.18 p.m.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, when I served at the Commonwealth Office I came to know and to respect the quite impressive concern which the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, displayed on issues for which Parliament had responsibility but little fashionable interest. I therefore listened with especial care to what he had to say to-day. Here again he showed an unmistakably sincere concern, and again on an issue for which there is undoubtedly Parliamentary responsibility but no discernible passion. To the extent that by initiating this discussion the noble Lord helps to remedy a situation in which the community at large are, as the Report puts it, "uninterested and uninformed", the noble Lord is to be warmly thanked. To the extent, too, that he calls attention to the existence of the Report of the Commission, he will have rendered a great service. The document, in my view, is one of great clarity and integrity—clarity of language and thought, if not of clear unity of recommendation—and it deserves to have the widest possible readership.
My Lords, though I speak on behalf of my Party, the House will not be surprised to hear that I do not offer any Party policy with regard to Church and State. If and when this question comes before the House in any crucial form it will be a matter for all on this side, and I have no doubt on other sides, too, to decide on an individual basis. On the principles involved in the Motion before the House it will be for my colleagues to assess and to decide without guidance or advice from me. On the narrower question of the permission to present a Bill I shall have something to say later.

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Meanwhile, on the wider issues it may be that I can offer, humbly I hope, a limited number of observations of my own.
First, I share the distaste of the Commission for the term "establishment". It is an emotive term. It does the Anglican Church no good at all. It is responsible for misunderstanding, if not for downright antagonism. Indeed, there was one member of my Party who last week said to me that he was against the establishment of the Church of England because he thought it involved financial support of the Church by the State through taxation. But although I believe the term "establishment" to be a liability, at the same time I think it would be wrong to speak of disestablishment as if it meant the State disowning the Church. I do not think that it would be good for the nation to give the impression that, as a deliberate act, the majority of people in the country wish to dissociate themselves from a Church, if not from a religion. At this point of time it would be a mistake for the State to cut adrift from organised Christianity when so many people, against the trend of events, are trying hard to hold on to things of genuine value. It would be misinterpreted, and it would give comfort to all those who apparently seek a complete free-for-all in matters of morality.
My inclination, therefore, is for a course of action which favours reform but not complete severance. What are the matters on which reform is needed? Here I must say that I find myself much more in sympathy with the majority recommendations of the Report than with the Bill which the noble Lord has outlined in his Motion. If I thought it almost inevitable, as Miss Pitt puts it in her Minority Memorandum, that an established Church must place too heavy an emphasis on structures and institutions rather than on the people in common life, I would take a different view. But I cannot see that the structural changes which she envisages or which the noble Lord envisages would necessarily create the new spirit needed.
I am less confident than the noble Lord about the appointment of Bishops. The differing arguments that are set out in the Report about the procedures of appointment seem to be almost equally
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valid. I can well see the illogicality of having the Prime Minister make unadvised recommendations to the Crown if the Prime Minister of the day happens to be a declared agnostic. On the other hand, the system of recommendations through "No. 10" has its merits. I am impressed by the point made in Paragraph 17 of the Report that ecclesiastical elections tend to produce safe men. Certainly it seems true that within my lifetime some of the most outstanding leaders in the Church of England would never have reached the eminence they did, and probably would not have made the impact they made, if appointments had been left entirely to the Church. On balance, therefore, illogical as it may seem, I think that there would be advantage in leaving the Prime Minister as the channel through whom names are tendered to the Crown.
I am more certain about the need to strengthen and extend the moves already made to vest responsibility for forms of worship and doctrine in the Church itself. I cannot see that the dignity of Church or State is served by having disputes among Members of Parliament, of all sects and creeds or of none, about the form of worship in an Anglican Church. I should have no difficulty, therefore, in accepting the implications of Recommendation No. 1 in the Report's Summary in Chapter 7. I must also say that I found myself much more in sympathy with the discreet treatment by the Report of the issue of seats for Bishops in this House than with the uncompromising terms of the noble Lord's Motion. I should have thought that if we were considering the termination of establishment, as the Motion says, we ought not to say quite so dogmatically that the conditions should include the preservation of seats in the House of Lords for all present occupants.
The Report refers to the White Paper on House of Lords Reform published by the previous Government. I think it is fairly safe to say that if, prior to the compilation of that White Paper, there had been a reconstitution of the Anglican Church, and particularly if there had been progress towards unity of different Churches, then the terms of the White Paper on this point would have been different. I can well conceive that we should have moved toward a position in which respected figures from all Churches would

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sit in this House on the same basis as other Life Peers, and not, if I may say so without any intended disrespect, as ex-officio representatives of a particular Church.
Following from that, I notice that the Motion permits reference to what the Report calls the "oddity" of the disqualification of Anglican clergymen as far as membership of the Lower House of Parliament is concerned. There are, in my view, arguments against, as well as for, the proposition that Ministers of religion should go out on the hustings and offer themselves for election as Members of Parliament, but there can surely be no argument for the legal position as at present it stands. One would hope that, as the Report recommends, if there are to be reforms, then the opportunity should be taken to lift the legal embargo on particular clergy of a particular Church from sitting in a particular House of Parliament.
My Lords, I have said earlier that it is not for me, speaking for my Party, to advise my noble friends as to how they should vote on the issue of the relationship of Church and State. What, however, we shall be voting upon this evening, if the noble Lord presses his Motion to a Division, is whether leave should be given to bring in a particular Bill. This, I think, is a separate matter to which we should give careful consideration. I do not think that we have as yet reached a stage where a Bill ought to be considered. There needs to be much more discussion outside. The Church itself at the various representative levels has not yet considered the Report of the Commissioners. Their discussions and opinions ought to be available to this House before any legislation is considered. I hope myself that, as well as the discussions intended in the various synods, it will be possible to stimulate interest among members of the congregations who normally do not play an active part in the administration of the Church.
I myself should wish to know much more about the reaction of the other Churches to these various proposals before I was asked to take any decision in a Division Lobby. I very much hope—and in this I share the feelings expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester—
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that nothing will be done with regard to the constitutional position of the Church of England which will set back in any way the possibility of union as between the Anglican Church and other Churches in the country. For all these reasons, therefore, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, having given us his most valued and valuable opinion, will see fit not to press his Motion to a Division. But if there is a Division, for my part I shall vote against his Motion.
3.30 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (Loma ABERDARE): My Lords, I thought that it might be for the convenience of your Lordships if I were to intervene fairly early in this debate and give some indication of the attitude of the Government towards the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. The subject of the relations between the Established Church and the State is one of immense intricacy and difficulty. Some measure of its scope may be judged from the six headings listed in the noble Lord's Motion. He seeks the introduction of a Bill to give effect to those six proposals which, he suggests, would form a reasonable way of effecting the disestablishment of the Church. I suspect, and hope, that the noble Lord has brought this Motion before the House to-day less to urge the implementation of specific proposals than to test Parliamentary and public opinion. It is, however, the view of the Government that the present is not the right time for such a debate, and it is not my intention to-day to enter into any discussion of the merits of his proposals.
My Lords, the subject goes very much deeper than the Motion of the noble Lord might suggest. State and Church are linked in an intricate body of law much of which is centuries old and some of which originated in pre-Reformation days. Disestablishment requires detailed study in depth and cannot be decided by a series of quick decisions on separate issues. It is a question which, clearly must be related to changing times and circumstances.
During the 19th century the question of disestablishment of the Church often came before Parliament. It was not perhaps disestablishment as we think of

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it to-day, for the main issues were concerned with Ireland and with Scotland, where the circumstances were very different from those which applied in England. Nevertheless, separation of the Church of England was not far from the thoughts of the Parliaments of those days. One of the noble Lord's distinguished Liberal predecessors, Mr. Gladstone, stoutly defended the principle of establishment in his book, The State in its Relations with the Church, the opening sentence of which reads as follows:
"Probably there never was a time in the history of our country when the connection between the Church and the State was threatened from quarters so manifold and various as at present."
My Lords, that was in 1838. But Mr. Gladstone came increasingly to believe that his theories were not of universal application. He supported separation in both Ireland and Scotland, but was by no means decided that this was the right policy for England.
I should not wish to suggest that we should be guided to-day by what Mr. Gladstone thought about the established Church of the 19th century, nor by the reasoning behind his conclusions. Relations between Church and State have altered radically since those days, and any comparison would be misleading. My purpose in referring to the past was merely to illustrate how the views of those who have thought deeply on this subject can change, and that there are some matters which are best left to the process of organic evolution. To attempt to force the pace is to invite decisions which may at best be arbitrary, and at worst disastrous; and it is the Government's view that the question of disestablishment falls into this category.
We have not debated this subject in your Lordships' House for very many years. It may be that the steady progress of legislation by Church Assembly Measures since the passing of the Church of England Assembly Powers Act in 1919 has something to do with that. The time may well be near when Parliamentary opinion should again be tested. We are, however, convinced that this moment has not yet arrived. The Church itself is by no means certain of its own attitude and has not yet had the opportunity to examine and reach firm conclusions on the many issues involved. It is therefore
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premature to bring the matter before your Lordships at this stage.
I say this, my Lords, in the light of the publication last month of the Report mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, entitled Church and State, by a Commission of the Archbishops on which two Members of your Lordships' House served. The Commission was set up by the Archbishops, and it is to them that the Report is addressed. It is not a Report to Parliament, nor to the Government, and in the view of the Government it is imperative that the Church should have the time and the opportunity to take soundings and to form its own conclusions on the recommendations of the Commission, and for your Lordships' House to have the opportunity of hearing the outcome of those deliberations before any firm attitudes are struck.
The noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, had the courtesy to give me notice of the fact that he will later on be supporting one recommendation of the Commission: that no one should be excluded by reason of being a minister of any Church from his right to stand as a candidate for Parliament and to take his seat in the House of Commons. This was a matter which also was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Beswick. My Lords, I doubt whether this point arises strictly on the Motion that we are debating; nor indeed is it properly a matter for your Lordships' House at all. In the recent past, at least, questions of disqualification of individuals from election to another place have been dealt with by a Select Committee in that place. This was the case when similar questions were raised in 1953 and 1956, and so I think it would be wrong for me to agree here and now to consider changes of the kind the noble Lord has in mind.
The work of this Commission took four years to complete and even then the members were far from unanimous in their conclusions and recommendations. It is clear that consideration of their proposals will be a lengthy process. The recently established General Synod of the Church of England provides a most suitable platform for the sounding of both clerical and lay opinion, and also for full discussion of all the intricacies of the subject in the light of the Commission's Report. I feel certain that the Archbishops will look to the Synod as

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the main means of consolidating the attitude of the Church. My Lords, until this has been done it would, in the view of the Government, be both premature and also unproductive to take the matter further; and for these reasons I would urge the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, to withdraw his Motion. Should he decide to press it, I can only advise your Lordships not to support it.

POST OFFICE WORKERS' STRIKE
3.37 p.m.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORT-FOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN): My Lords, it may be for the convenience of your Lordships if, with permission, I now read a Statement that has been made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Employment. The Statement is as follows:
"I held a long series of meetings yesterday with representatives of the Post Office and of the Union of Post Office Workers, ending with a meeting of both sides under my chairmanship. I very much regret that despite these protracted discussions the dispute remains unresolved. Throughout the talks, the positions of the two sides remained firmly as they had been when negotiations broke down.
"The Union maintained strongly that the only basis for a settlement was a substantial increase in the Post Office's offer and justified their claim in relation to the level of settlements in the last twelve months, and as necessary to maintain the relative position of their members.
"For their part, the Post Office regard their present offer as the limit to which they can go in view not only of their present financial position but also because of the damage to their longer-term commercial viability, in view of the scale and timing of further increases in charges which an improved offer would make necessary, and the effects of such increases on the volume of their business.
"Nevertheless, the Post Office confirmed their willingness to go to arbitration under their agreement with the Union of last August, and be bound
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by the award. They maintained that this agreement placed an obligation on the Union, if the Post Office so required, as they have done, to join with the Post Office in asking me to refer the dispute to arbitration.
"The Union, however, are not prepared to go to arbitration. Moreover, they take the view that the agreement does not require one party to accept arbitration if the other party requires it, and their representatives explained to me that they would not have signed the agreement had it in their view placed such an obligation on them.
"From my reading of the agreement which I find clear on this point, I agree with the Post Office's view. I must accept, however, as did the Post Office representatives, that the difference arises from a genuine misunderstanding.
"At the end of the talks, Mr. Jackson expressed his thanks for the genuine attempts that had been made during our discussion to try and find a basis for conciliation and asked me to report this to the House. The Post Office representatives associated themselves with this expression of appreciation and I should like to say how grateful I am to both sides.
"I finally made clear that I would hold myself available for further discussions if either side should at any time feel that this would be useful."
My Lords, that is the Statement.
LORD DELACOURT-SMITH: My Lords, we are, I am sure, grateful to the noble Lord for repeating the Statement in your Lordships' House. I am sure, too, that the noble Lord will be aware that the action of the Secretary of State for Employment in bringing the two sides together is very much welcomed and appreciated. May I ask the noble Lord, especially in view of the fact that here again, as in the power dispute, we are concerned with a union which is well known for its moderate and constructive attitude engaged in a constitutional dispute and taking constitutional action, whether we may be assured that no other members of Her Majesty's Government will indulge in inflammatory speeches, which could go a long way to nullifying the effect of the intervention of the Secretary of State?
LORD BYERS: My Lords, we on these Benches would also like to commend the action of the Minister in bringing both sides together and would associate ourselves with the obvious sense of regret that it has not been possible to find a basis for conciliation. May I ask the noble Lord: would it not be a good idea for the Government to condemn now the whole principle of pay claims and pay awards which are across the board? Are we not bound to compound inflation, when unions—and responsible unions—can openly say, as I understand is in the statement, that they must have such-and-such a percentage to justify their claim
"in relation to the level of settlements in the last twelve months and as necessary to maintain the relative position of their members."?
This determination to keep up with the Jack Joneses is very understandable but it is simply a beggar-my-neighbour policy, which has no finality to it. May I put this thought to the noble Lord? Would it not be worth while considering as a basis for conciliation, which is expressed in the Statement as being required by both sides, getting the agreement of the two sides to setting up an inquiry to decide what the Post Office can afford, taking into account the national interest, and roughly how this amount should be shared out among the lower-paid workers of the Post Office and in other categories which are obviously deserving of wage increases, and getting away from this whole position of across-the-board demands, which are going to ruin the economy?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, may I first of all express my appreciation of the welcome given by the noble Lord, Lord Delacourt-Smith, to this Statement. He asked me whether I could give assurances about inflammatory speeches made by other members of the Government. I do not quite know what he is referring to, but I think he would agree that any member of the Government must take responsibility for what he himself says. After all, it is a question of what is an inflammatory speech.
May I say to the noble Lord, Lord Byers, that I very much welcome his constructive approach to the matter and I shall bring what he has said to the attention of my right honourable friend. However, it seems only common sense
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that when we have had a series of wage settlements which obviously, if continued, would bring harm to the economy of the country some way has to be found in which this progress (if it can be called progress) can be slowed down.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that trade unionists now have not a friend in the world—not the Tory Government, nor the Press nor television? Every trade union member is fighting against past inflation and is trying to keep up with it. Is the noble Lord aware that the Tory strategy now is to let prices go sky-high, when they say that they could settle the score? Is the noble Lord also aware that the Industrial Relations Bill is designed to hamstring the trade unions in the future, when rents and rates, and everything else, go up next year? How can he think that we are prepared to accept Tory nice words on this issue?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am not aware of the premises of the noble Lord and therefore I cannot accept his conclusions.
LORD SLATER: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I support the sentiments expressed by my noble friend Lord Delacourt-Smith about the Minister getting both sides together; and, secondly, that if it were true that the two sides had agreed basically to go to arbitration the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications has slipped up in his responsibility in not getting the two sides together to determine, in the first place, who should be Chairman for that arbitration from the beginning—because in a sense this would be a permanent position? What the Minister has said about the pay increases for those engaged within the Post Office is well out of line because of the extreme overtime that is being worked at this moment inside the Post Office owing to the lack of manpower.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, with regard to the arbitration agreement, this is a matter of interpretation, and it would not be for either my right honourable friend the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications or my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Employment to give an official interpretation. What I understand my right honourable friend has said in another place is that,

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if the two sides will consent., he will lay a copy of the agreement in the Library of another place, and with the same consent I will do the same in your Lordships' Library, so that noble Lords can judge for themselves.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, can the noble Lord say, in the present conflict taking place between the trade unions and the Government, how we can create one nation?
LORD SLATER: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that over the years since 1964 we have endeavoured to bring back the good relations which have operated inside the Post Office over many years, and that this point of disrepute which has been created over interpretation will create an unfortunate attitude of mind among those who have been good servants to the general public and will create lack of confidence even in the new Board that has been set up in the course of the negotiations?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am sure that we all want to see the best possible relations between the two sides, and I think that most of us, if not all of us, would agree that there should be arbitration, whether or not it is particularly specified in the agreement.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware—I am sure he is—that the integrity of the Post Office Workers' Union is not in any way in question. The question really is how to stop the inflationary trend in the country's economy.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am glad to agree entirely with the noble Lord.
LORD DELACOURT-SMITH: My Lords, since the noble Lord has referred to arbitration, may I ask: is he really not aware of the atmosphere which has been created in this regard by a number of the pronouncements of his right honourable friends?
LORD DRUMALBYN: No, my Lords; I cannot say that I am aware of it.
LORD SHEPHERD: Scamp.
LORD DELACOURT-SMITH: My Lords, is the noble Lord not aware of the observations made by the Prime
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Minister on a previous occasion when a Court of Inquiry was set up by the parties? Is he not aware of other statements which were made during the power workers' dispute by members of the Government, inciting public feeling in a most extraordinary fashion?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I would not accept that. I think we all appreciate that the inherent difficulty here is the means of getting both parties to agree that there is a public interest and also a national interest in the settlement that they make.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, can the noble Lord—
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Lord, I think that we are going a little wide on this matter. The usual procedure is that questions are asked to elucidate a Statement, and we are rather getting into a debate. I should have thought that this is dangerous and not conducive to what we all want to see, which is a settlement of this strike.

THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND: DISESTABLISHMENT PROPOSAL
3.53 p.m.
Debate resumed.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: My Lords, I think that is an invitation to come back from the market place to church. I wish to go as far as I possibly can in performing the normal courtesies of thanking the noble Lord who has introduced a most interesting subject for debate. I can sincerely thank him for the gentle and understanding spirit in which he introduced his Motion, and for all the mollifying sweetmeats with which he sugared the pill that he has prepared for the Church of England as at present by law established. I must say that I found it difficult to contemplate with pleasure the debate which we knew lay ahead of us in the particular circumstances of this discussion in the church and the nation. In fact, thinking about it almost spoiled for me (and this is a serious thing for a Cambridge man to say) the associations of the word "Grantchester" for ever. We all know that
"Things are done you'd not believe
At Madingley on Christmas Eve.
But Grantchester ah! Grantchester,
There's peace and holy quiet there"—

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but not much peace and holy quiet for the Church of England as it hopes to go forward to a leisured discussion of this Report, Church and State, because before we even have a chance to start our little private quarrel we must have at any rate a public discussion. I think Rupert Brooke, referring to Lord Byron, said:
"Still in the dawnlit waters cool
His ghostly Lordship swims his pool."
Lord Grantchester, not content with that, has dived in at the deep end, and made us all dive in, too.
We from these Benches fully understand that this is in no sense a Party Motion, although I should imagine that perhaps in his subconscious mind the noble Lord was not unaware of the contribution of some of his great predecessors in the Liberal Party to matters of this sort. It was just 100 years ago that the Church of Ireland, as it was then called, was disestablished under the ægis of Mr. Gladstone. I am told that the Archbishop of Armagh for many years had as part of his furniture in his house a table inscribed as follows:
"Round this table Mr. Gladstone with his Ministers plotted the destruction of the Irish Church."
It became rather an embarrassment to him in recent years, particularly as the Church of Ireland did rather well under disestablishment, and I believe that it has been discreetly covered with a table cloth. Then, of course, 50 years later the Welsh Church was disestablished. I can well imagine that the noble Lord might have thought that Gladstone-Lloyd George-Grantchester would make a nice sequence of episodes to go alongside the disestablishment of these three Churches.
Coming to the Commission which has been sitting, I want to safeguard myself and the time and energies of the House from getting too deeply involved in the Report itself and its various recommendations. It has been an arduous although a stimulating experience to be a member of this Commission for four years that have only just ended. Those of your Lordships who are familiar with this document will know the kind of membership which was recruited by the most reverend Primate for this Report. It contained, I think, a good cross-section of opinion, having on it two professors,
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two Members of Parliament, a judge, two bishops and a number of younger members, including some who have already been mentioned, and who were known in advance to take a very radical view on these matters. Their findings have been set out, I think most people agree, with considerable charm and clarity, because there was one hand which was responsible for the writing of the Report. That, as I think is well known, was the hand of the Chairman of the Commission, Professor Owen Chadwick, Vice Chancellor of Cambridge and one of our leading Church historians. I do not think there can be any doubt in anybody's mind that considerable experience, talent and understanding were brought together for the production of this Report.
Almost all the matters dealt with in the noble Lord's Motion this afternoon are discussed at length, and not always with unanimous agreement, in the Report which the Church is about to consider. We have ourselves in the Report unanimously requested that the Church should be released by the State from having to bring questions of worship and doctrine to Parliament. So on that point, at least, there is an area of agreement between the Commission's findings and the desires of the noble Lord. We have made many proposals for a larger Church element in the appointment of the senior officers of the Church, although, as is well known, there is a difference of opinion as to the way in which this can best be carried forward. As the noble Lord particularly drew attention to the finding of one group of commissioners that the Prime Minister should still in some way be associated with that appointment, I need only say that the reason behind that was that many on the Commission felt that we could not (so to speak) monopolise the Queen without also including the right that the Sovereign has to be advised by her principal Minister.
With regard to law, I do not want to debate the details of Lord Grantchester's Motion, because I do not think that is really the point at issue this afternoon; but as all that he says will be recorded in the columns of Hansard, if no one says anything on the other side it might be thought that no answers were possible. The noble Lord proposes in, if I may say so, a rather cavalier way that the

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law of the Church should cease to be the law of the land. There are many matters where the Church would welcome a greater freedom from full Statute implication in the framing of the Church's laws. May I give one example that perhaps will make the point clearer? At present half the people in this country who get married do so in the Church of England, and it is an immemorial custom in our own country that that is a valid marriage. The minute you make the kind of separation which the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, thinks can be wished on the country and the Church in almost a casual moment, that immediately becomes impossible, and no couple in future could be married in church without visiting a registry office also.
LORD GRANTCHESTER: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the right reverend Prelate, but is that quite so? The priest who conducts the marriage is acting for the registrar and is authorised to do so in churches of the Church of England. I should propose that those same provisions apply to marriages in any church that applies for the dual role and is so approved.
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, would the Church of England then be in any worse position than the ordinary Free Churches of this country?
THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: My Lords, may I take the second question first? I think the answer is, "No, it would not be in any worse position". It would be in a different position from the position it has been in from time immemorial, and therefore the burden of proof would rest with those who wished to make the change.
With regard to Lord Grantchester's interruption, I can only say that there are many permutations and combinations that could be worked out if such a development took place. I gave it just as an example of something that noble Lords may think is a purely theoretical and not very interesting matter, but it is something that would affect a large number of ordinary people at an important stage in their lives.
With regard to an Address to the Crown asking for permission to bring in this Bill, I will allow myself only one personal word, and that is that it would
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seem a very inappropriate moment for such an Address to be made to the Crown, in that we have only just had a very great event in the life of our country: the opening of the General Synod, in which Her Majesty took a solemn and impressive part. I can hardly imagine a moment when such a suggestion would make less appeal to members of the Church of England generally than at this particular time. Debate will go on in the Church of England and, no doubt, far beyond it. We do not want to anticipate in this House the detail of that debate. I would just mention, however, that if the formulation of opinion in the Commission was in any way typical of what is going to happen in the Church as a whole, it would appear that the desire of the Church is likely to be for evolution, rather than revolution, in this particular matter of its relationship with the State. Of 17 members, 14 were in favour of certain modifications as between Church and State. Three were in favour of Lord Grantchester's line of complete disestablishment.
All we ask at this moment from your Lordships' House is that we should be allowed to look at this matter quietly for ourselves, probably for a year or 18 months, before anything is thought suitable for bringing to Parliament. There is a case for some continuing relationship between Church and State, as well as a case for considerable modification of that relationship. That is clear to many of us who have been studying the matter in detail for several years. Some people speak as though we have now moved into a position where the Church of England is a very effete and unimportant part of national life. It is no part of my case this afternoon to resist the challenges which the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, has put before us. It is no part of my case to suggest that everything in the garden is lovely and that we can claim innocence from many of the faults which he outlined before your Lordships this afternoon. But, on the other side, there is still a tremendous link between large numbers of our people and the Church of England.
If your Lordships are typical members of the British community, there is a likelihood that at least half of you were married at a Church of England altar and about two-thirds of you were baptised at an Anglican font; and when

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it comes to your funeral there is a strong likelihood that it will be conducted by a Church of England clergyman. I do not suggest that these ritual links are by any means the most important part of the work and witness of the Church, but they are very important if you are discussing the rightness or wrongness of some continuing association between the Church and the State.
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt, but would the right reverend Prelate also apply the same argument to the majority of people in prison, and in Her Majesty's Forces, who also registered automatically as members of the Church of England?
THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: My Lords, I think that, so far as I understood the question, up the word "automatically" I would accept it. There is the famous case, your Lordships may remember, when a former Archbishop of Canterbury was visiting Maidstone Gaol and he asked the prisoners at the church service how many had been choir boys. Nearly all of them put up their hands. That was very much misunderstood; because while it is true that most prisoners had been choir boys, it was not true that most choir boys became prisoners. That was commonly misunderstood.
I do not think this is the occasion to debate in further intimate detail the actual proposals of the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, or those of the Commission, but I should like to end by reminding your Lordships of the wider background against which, sooner or later, these matters will have to be discussed and decided. They were all brought to expression in the debates that took place at the time of the French Revolution, when there was a strong development in European society towards complete separation between Churches and States, and when the other side of that matter was put with tremendous force by Edmund Burke.
When one reads Edmund Burke on the Establishment, of course one comes across all kinds of remarks and statements that are ludicrously funny from the point of view of modern life. He says, for instance (I hope that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham will not
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mind being used as an example), that the people of England are well content for the Bishop of Durham to receive £10,000 a year, even though he does not keep as many dogs and horses as other noble Lords. But, when one has gone beyond those anachronistic points, one comes to see that he is putting before his readers something which is still, I believe, immensely true; and that is the fact, or at any rate the faith, that the development of our society can be rooted in the past and at the same time move forward into the present and a true preparation for the future.
The roots in the past are obvious. One has only to look at a chess board to be reminded of your Lordships' House. One will see on either side of the throne the bishops standing there. The only difference is that, in some way or other, the Liberal Members of this House occupy seats which on the chess board would be shared by the bishops, and we seem to have settled down permanently on this side of the House. But that only illustrates pictorially the tremendous history that lies behind all our arrangements. It is very kind of the noble Lord, Lord Granchester, to allow in his suggested Bill that those of us who are at present privileged to be in your Lordships' House should be allowed to stay here: we very much appreciate that thought on his part. But I would just remind your Lordships that we were here first: it is really rather decent of us to allow him to retain his seat.
But, my Lords, we know very well that we have a lot of deep thinking to do in our Church. Do let us have our private quarrel first; and then, when we have that settled, we shall be delighted to come along and once more take up your Lordships' time.
4.14 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I should like to start by reiterating the request made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, not to press his Motion. Sitting, as I do, on the General Synod, diocesan synod, deanery synod and parochial church council, I say: let us have an opportunity of debating this document, Church and State, before we come to any conclusions such as the noble Lord would like us to spring to to-day. I personally have always been against

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severing the link between the Church of England and the State. In this, I do not know whether I am in a majority or a minority of the General Synod. But I am convinced that I have the support of the very large number of the members of the Church of England who are not interested in Church politics or in getting themselves elected on to committees, Synods, or any form of Church government, and who take no particular interest in what the people who have been elected are up to.
Those are the people who give generously when it is necessary to preserve their church and the fabric of their parish. They do not attend very regularly, but are most interested to try to see that they obtain a good man as their parson, and a suitable wife. They do not show very much interest in Church activities outside their own parish, but as individuals, of course, they frequently are attached to various forms of good work. Such people, in fact, regard what "they"— meaning, the diocese, et cetera—are up to with some degree of suspicion. These people are not a figment of my imagination. They are referred to in similar tones in paragraph 102 of the Report of the Archbishops' Commission.
The people I am speaking about, the majority of the Church of England, have always had Parliament as their ultimate safeguard of their rights and wishes. So long as the Church is established, Parliament has always been a kind of long-stop or goalkeeper. If anything particularly outrageous to their views or conscience is afoot, Members of Parliament hear about it from their constituents, and if the country becomes sufficiently worked up then Parliament can call a halt for reconsideration. This will rarely happen, of course, because the Church is extremely skilled and conscientious in its public relations with everybody. But it can happen, and disestablishment would mean that the ultimate safeguard of these non-vocal people would have gone. Religion can breed fanaticism, even today, and it could be that the General Synod was captured by extreme elements who would think it their duty to impose their ideas upon others. Some people say that Parliament, being to a considerable extent a non-Christian body, is not a fit body to exercise these ultimate powers. But, on this analogy, there are very few
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subjects on which Parliament could be considered to be qualified. In fact, the less actual interest in the subject, the more likely to be the quality of the considered judgment.
Some people say it is intolerable that the appointment of Bishops should be conducted as it is at present. I take precisely the opposite view. There is far more consultation with all bodies of the Church than there could ever be under any other system, because the people who have to actuate the mechanisms know the kind of charges that can be levelled against them. They take the utmost care over every step they make in this direction. If I had to appoint the Chief Rabbi, I would go to the most tremendous efforts to take every conceivable form of sounding before I dared put a foot forward in that way. And that is what happens at the moment. The consultations have even been increased in recent years, with the setting up of the Vacancies in Sees Committee. If any clergyman should find it intolerable for his name to be put forward by a possibly agnostic Prime Minister, then the remedy is obvious: he can always withdraw. But up to date I have never heard of such a withdrawal.
The alternative of election by some Synod would be most distasteful, leading to lobbying and all sorts of things. An indirect election by an electoral college would, I think, he just as bad, if not worse, because there would be tremendous efforts and jockeying to try to fill the body of the electoral college. On the whole, the present system gives us pretty good Bishops and provides a very good variety—one has only to look on the left to see that—and extreme personalities do have a chance, which I believe under the committee system they would not do.
I suppose it could be argued (and I think the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, was arguing the point) that it would be easier to join up with some of the Free Churches if there were no link with the State. Why, I have never really understood until now; but I believe that in this debate I have found the clue. There is such a great misconception of the type of link that I believe the whole thing is completely misconceived. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, who had a friend who had some idea that the Church was supported by the taxpayer

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in some way. In practice, of course, the situation is precisely the reverse. It is the Church that, in spending large sums of money in contributions towards the provision of Church schools is propping up the State. There are many other misconceptions of that sort.
Some Churchmen—and I think the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, is one of them—talk as if the very existence of different paths to God is a reproach to Christianity. But all faiths have their different sects. Islam certainly has: they have their puritan sects and various others, and the Buddhists and the Hindus take many different paths towards their ultimate God. The various denominations of the Christian faith tend to reflect the different outlook and life of their adherents, and if to secure ecumenical unity the Church of England had to conform in its daily outlook to others, then the silent majority would be most unhappy. To take practical but very extreme examples, if in order to secure a union with some particular Free Church it was necessary for the Church of England to adopt the rather extreme attitude to alcohol, smoking and gambling that some of the Churches tend to adopt, then the silent majority of the Church of England would just not conform. Again, if, in order to facilitate union with the Church of Rome, the Church of England was expected to adopt Roman ideas of authority, celibacy of the clergy and birth control, then again the silent majority of the Church of England would just not conform.
Is it really worth while to create a disestablishment in order to create a de jure union that was not in fact a de facto union? We can all co-operate without legal union, but I believe that establishment is very largely a bogey, and that it is much better to lay the bogey by instruction and innovation rather than to sacrifice establishment in order to satisfy the ill-founded fancies of some other people.
Some churchmen feel frustrated by what they think might be the attitude of Parliament towards change in the form of their services. I have never seen force in that argument. Parliament will not stand in the way of any changes that do not affront a large number of Church of England people—the non-vocal majority.
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In the ordinary way the Church is much too sensible to put forward proposals of this sort which would so outrage the main body as to force people to go to Parliament for protection, and if they were so lacking in judgment then they would deserve to run foul of Parliament.
I have come to the conclusion that the main forces of disestablishment are false hopes and false fears. There is no doubt that we are passing through a phase of agnosticism and inattendance at religious services, and it is tempting for some people to think that if one could only "jazz it up" a bit people would be more sympathetic. It is tempting for others to think that if only we could unite all the Churches there would be a great religious revival, and that all this would be possible if we could get rid of Parliamentary control. Do not believe it, my Lords. I certainly do not. To my mind it would be most foolish to change the status of a link with the Church and the State in Britain. It would give comfort to the organised militant pagans who have done so much to encourage mockery of all Christian values, and it would remove the ultimate safeguards of people who are not in fact represented in the pyramid of committees and Synods which have been set up in the search for Church democracy.
4.26 p.m.
LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY: My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, will forgive me if I do not follow him in his arguments. I disagree so profoundly with every single point he put forward that I would take up too much of your Lordships' time if I were to deal with all his points, because I could not choose between them.
My noble friend Lord Grantchester has said that this cannot be a Party matter. Nor is it. Yet it is fitting that this topic should be raised from the Liberal Benches. Although, contrary to what I read recently in the papers, the disestablishment of the Church of England has never been, and is not, part of the policy of the Liberal Party, the Liberal Party has always had an interest in disestablishment, partly because a Non-Conformist conscience never roars so loudly as when it suspects (in this case rightly) that it is being done down, and partly because the Liberal Party has

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always been suspicious of cant and inimical to privilege. But, fitting as it is that this subject should have been raised from these Benches, and grateful as I am to my noble friend for raising it, I could have wished that it had come from elsewhere—to be precise, from the Front Bench immediately in front of me, and that it had been moved by the most reverend the Primate of All England.
As a Liberal legislator I must admit that while I think that disestablishment of the Church of England would be a good thing, it is far down the list of my priorities. But as a member of the inferior clergy of the Church of England it is fairly high on my list of priorities. That is why I wish that this proposal had come from the Church of England and, in view of the timing and the necessity for debate in the Church, of which the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester has so rightly reminded us, why I still hope that it can come from that quarter before very long.
This afternoon I should like to look at one or two of the ways in which the Establishment works. It is never easy to probe behind the smokescreen which surrounds the workings of the Church at its higher levels. The agendas and decisions of the Bishops' meetings are the best kept secrets in British public life, although whether this is because Bishops are supernaturally discreet or because these matters are, as my father used to say about masonic secrets, of such a nature that no one can remember them, is not entirely apparent. But occasionally we can probe behind the screen and you and I, my Lords, who rub shoulder to lawn-shoulder with at least one Bishop every Sitting day, have a unique opportunity to do so.
There have been two occasions in the recent past when the vote of the Bishops Bench was of extraordinary interest—the Division on the Rhodesian Sanctions Order and the Division on the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill—the Bill dealing with East African Asians. It is fair to say that on both those occasions the leaders of the Church of England were more or less united, and united with the leaders of the other Christian Churches in this country as to the right course to take. It is also right and fair to say
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that they spoke up with very considerable courage, and none of your Lordships who were in the House at the time, whether you agreed or not, will, I think, easily forget the courageous and eloquent speech of the most reverend Primate on the occasion of the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill. But there was a considerable difference in the voting figures on those two occasions. On Rhodesian sanctions no fewer than 18 of the Bishops' Bench voted. On the Kenyan Asians Bill only three.
Why was this? Was it because there was no hope of affecting the issue in the latter case? Far from it. If all the Bishops had voted, and if the noble Lord, Lord Macleod of Fuinary, had cast his vote with his voice, it is possible, indeed probable, that that Bill would have been defeated, to the greater honour of your Lordships' House and of England and for the avoidance of much human misery. The noble Lord, Lord Macleod of Fuinary, can of course be forgiven if, in casting his first vote in your Lordships' House, he naturally assumed that if he followed into the Lobby the Leaders of the Party he had so long supported and adorned he would find himself voting for the principles of good faith and the brotherhood of man which he believed it represented. It is sad to see simple faith so quickly shattered. But at least he was there.
Where were the Bishops? It may be that the coincidence of Church Assembly or Convocation or a Bishops' meeting accounts to a certain extent for the disparity of the numbers on the two occasions. Or even the fact that one vote was at 7 p.m. and the other at 3 a.m. It may be that all Bishops had Confirmations on the night in question, and I should be the first to admit that Bishops are grossly overworked. But it is difficult to think of a more valuable initiation for a young person into adult Christian life than to have his Confirmation postponed because his father in God is casting a vote for justice and humanity.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, may I intervene? The noble Lord has picked out two causes particularly dear to his heart. But those are not the only things of interest to Bishops in this House. Would he read out the voting record of the Bishops on all the other issues?
LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY: My Lords, the vote of the Bishops on other issues is of interest, no doubt, but what I am pointing out is its disparity on these two occasions, when the Leaders of the Church were agreed, and fairly strongly. There was a difference in the vote on the two occasions, and I am going on to explain why this should be.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, the leaders of the Church were not agreed on Rhodesian sanctions. I have spoken to quite a number who opposed them.
LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY: My Lords, 18 Bishops went into the Lobby for the Government and no Bishops against the Government on that occasion. It may be that there were other high priorities why the Bishops were not there. One Bishop told me that he was seeing someone whose whole career was at stake, and that is a real priority and a real problem, although of course there were several tens of thousands of people whose careers were at stake that night. Another Bishop asked me whether I wanted to see the mediæval power of the Church in politics revived. My answer is that that power should either be abolished—which I favour and this Motion favours—or used. To have power for good which you do not use is in itself evil. But that question can hardly have given expression to the real motive of that Bishop, because he found himself in the Lobby on Rhodesian sanctions.
But none of these were the real reasons, except perhaps in individual cases; and I am sure that there were individual cases. On the whole the real reason, I believe, was one that was allowed discreetly to be known, and that was that it is permissible for the Church to use her power to support the Government of the day but not permissible for her to use her power against the Government of the day, particularly if there is any likelihood that she might succeed. And that, my Lords, is the negation of the whole theory of Establishment. It is death to the idea of the Church as the conscience of the nation. And it is, if I may say so, pathetic.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHESTER: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord by what authority he makes that statement?
LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY: My Lords, it was allowed to be understood. Would the most reverend Primate deny that it was the case?
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I intervene entirely to deny the proposition the noble Lord is adducing. We who sit on these Benches vote according to our judgment and conscience, which may sometimes be for and sometimes against the Government of the day. I know no other principle than that which directs our action.
THE LORD BISHOP OF DURHAM: My Lords, I would intervene to say that I would find it absolutely intolerable to be told how to vote in this House, either for the Government or against. It would be a complete denial of Christian reason or conscience.
LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY: My Lords, Christian reason or conscience is, in the case of the Bishops of the Establishment, quite rightly and obviously governed by the fact of Establishment. If they approve of Establishment, they must obviously do their best to see that Establishment continues, and Establishment must be one of the things which governs the conscience of Bishops. It would be wrong if it did not.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, is the noble Lord associating Establishment with the Government of the day? Because there is the difference of chalk from cheese.
LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY: My Lords, I am saying that there would be a very considerable constitutional crisis if the Government of the day was defeated on an important matter in your Lordships' House, and not only by your Lordships' House but on an issue in which the Bishops' Bench came out wholeheartedly against the Government of the day. I am saying that the Bench of Bishops is aware of this.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, the noble Lord has a vivid imagination.
LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY: My Lords, well might Bishop Gore exclaim that:
"The Church of England is an ingeniously devised instrumentality for defeating the objects it is supposed to promote".

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Nor does the Church gain anything from this kind of attitude. In making her own laws she is compelled either to deny her own opinions, which she believes to be guided by the Holy Spirit, or to resort to unworthy subterfuge to avoid the veto of Home Office lawyers. I refer particularly to the proposed canons on the seal of the confessional and the marriage of unbaptised persons. Their story is fully and fairly told in paragraphs 188 to 210 of the Report on Church and State, and I will not go further into the matter except to say that the question as to whether the proposed canon on the marriage of unbaptised persons is a good or a bad one is irrelevant.
The Church so long as it is established will neither be free to be the conscience of the nation, nor will it be free to run its own affairs. In both cases it makes itself a laughing stock—a fact which it is powerless to conceal and which only the total and understandable disinterest of the majority of Christians with the postures of all the official Churches stops from being a scandal.
But the problem runs deeper than this. I believe that the whole concept of Establishment is wrong. It is based on the idea of a Christian society. It is clear that Britain is no longer a Christian society. What is more important, I think, is that there can be no such thing. Christianity is a personal affirmation. It is the affirmation of the individual that "Jesus is Lord". A body of people who all make that affirmation, such as a Church, can be called a Christian body; but as soon as one person in a social entity does not make that affirmation it cannot rightly be called "Christian". It can behave in a Christian manner, it should behave in a moral manner, but to call it "Christian" is again to fudge the issue and lead to the ambiguities and compromises which are the concomitants of Establishment.
THE LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: My Lords, would the noble Lord hold, therefore, that a school in which there was one member of the Jewish community could not be called a Christian school?
LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY: My Lords, yes, I would, certainly. I think it is sound theology, but it may not be as good sociology. Nor do I believe
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that the posture of the Church as part of the authority of the nation is a fitting one. It is not necessary to regret the Constantinian Revolution or to lead a retreat to the catacombs to deplore, with W. H. Auden, that:
"Christian agape has now declined into a late lunch with Constantine".
The Church is not greater than its master, and it must take on the morphe tou doulou, the shape of a slave.
"Not of the princes and prelates with periwigged charioteers
Riding triumphantly laurelled to lap the fat of the years
Rather the scarred, the rejected, the men hemmed in with the spears"
It is probable indeed that to regard ourselves as a Christian country has a counter-productive effect. It leads us to believe that to be a decent citizen is the same as being a Christian, whereas the truth is nearer to the position stated by Father Raymond Raynes when he said that:
"Christianity based oil the best traits of the English character is exactly wrong."
It leads also to what Dean Inge called,
"prophylatic religion whereby many people get a mild dose of Christianity earlier in life which prevents them geting it badly later on."
Nor, indeed, even if it were becoming, would an Establishment posture be particularly appropriate at this moment. Along with all other Churches the figures for baptisms, confirmations and ordinations in the Church of England continue to fall at a rate which must be alarming to all those who defend the Establishment, since it is a corollary of the Establishment that the Church must have enough strength to maintain the role of a National Church. It is the ordination figures which have given so much worry until recently, but now it looks as if that worry, at least, will be removed, since financial forecasts make it probable that the Church will not be able to employ even the manpower that it has. This will also mean that a greater and greater proportion of time and money will be spent on the upkeep and fabric of the churches. My noble friend Lord Grantchester has made a virtue of the fact that he is not calling for disendowment. I, on the other hand, regret this. Disendowment might halt the decline of the Ministry from being priests, pastors and prophets into being museum keepers—soon of the only free museums in the State.

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My Lords, I do not anticipate that my noble friend will succeed in his endeavours, although I hope that he does. But there is one special point that I should like to raise; and, as the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare mentioned, it is one of which I have given him notice. The point concerns the disability for clergy of the Church of England, the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of Scotland to sit in the House of Commons. Here, at least, I hope that I shall carry with me my brethren on the opposite Benches. Whatever the reasons for the original disabilities, my Lords, I do not believe that there is any reason for the State to perpetuate them. They are not merely tied up with the Establishment, or Roman Catholic priests would not be debarred. It is not a ban on religious ministers as such, or the noble Lord, Lord Sorensen, would never have been a Member of Parliament. It does not apply to the Upper House, as witness the presence of the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, O.S.B., the noble Lord, Lord McLeod of Fuinary, the noble Lord, Lord Fisher of Lambeth, and myself. It is certainly not because the State thinks that clergy should not be involved in politics, or we should not have the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, as a Minister in the Government. Whether the Churches wish their clergy to sit in Parliament is another matter, and is up to them. But there is no reason left for the State to impose such a ban; and I am disappointed that the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, has not been able to give me a slight vestige of hope in this matter.
My Lords, I am sorry if I have given offence by anything that I have said in this speech. I shall await with interest the proper explanation of the difference in the two votes to which I have called attention. I hope that if I have given any offence it will not be allowed in any way to cloud the conviction that I have and the reasons that I have given for it, that the Establishment is not a good thing. It is an anomaly. It gives rise to anomalies. It is a nuisance to the State. It is a disaster to the Church, and I hope that it will not last very much longer.
4.45 p.m.
LORD FLETCHER: My Lords, it will be for others than myself to say whether the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley,
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has given offence, and as I notice that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester is to speak later in the debate, I prefer to leave it to him to deal with what I regarded as the more extreme and rather offensive remarks of the noble Lord. I am bound to say that I share very much the sentiments expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke.
This Motion by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, is quite obviously inspired by the recent Report of the Owen Chadwick Commission Church and State, and more particularly by the Memorandum of Dissent by Miss Valerie Pitt in that Report.
LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this Motion was on the Order Paper long before this Report came out?
LORD FLETCHER: My Lords, I was aware of that; but having listened to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, I still think that a great deal of his speech was inspired by much that is in the Report, and particularly in the Memorandum of Dissent of Miss Valerie Pitt. My excuse for intervening in this debate is that I happen to have been a member of an earlier Commission on Church and State, appointed by the most reverend Primate's predecessor, which reported in 1952, and which, if I may say so with all modesty, had among its members some who were no less distinguished than the members of the Owen Chadwick Commission. A number of them were, at one time or another, Members of your Lordships' House: I refer in particular to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter, to the noble Viscount, Lord Brentford, and to Bishop Charles-Edwards, who was until recently Bishop of Worcester. The 1952 Commission was under the chairmanship of Sir Walter Moberley.
I hope that when this latest Report comes to be considered by the Synod and by diocesan bodies, they will not overlook the arguments and the recommendations of the earlier Report of 1952. I have recently re-read that Report, with which I had something to do and, if again I may say so with all modesty, I greatly prefer both the arguments and the conclusions in that Report to those in the Report of the Commission of which the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester was such a distinguished member.

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To my mind, the relevant considerations have not changed very much since then. In so far as they have changed since 1952, they have made the case for disestablishment much weaker. The Moberley Commission reached a conclusion at page 17 from which I will read only one sentence. After an elaborate examination of the arguments both ways, we said:
"The Establishment is of great benefit to the nation and affords great opportunities to the Church. The Church has a strong prima facie obligation to use, and not to abandon, these opportunities."
The speech of the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, was a naked and undisguised plea for the disestablishment of the Church of England. If ever there was a case for this House to consider the disestablishment of the Church of England it was in 1928 or 1929, 40 years ago, when Parliament threw out the Prayer Book Measures, and when there was, one must admit, a deep sense of humiliation and of suffering, genuinely felt, not throughout the Church as a whole, but by a great number of the leaders of the Churches.
The situation has changed profoundly since 1929, and in particular since 1952. Any arguments for disestablishment that could have been used at those dates are much less persuasive now. What has happened since then? During the interval, there has been a succession of Measures approved by Parliament to give to the Church of England ever-increasing measures of autonomy, with the result that the links between the Church and State have become so attenuated as to be almost minimal in their significance.
One recalls the vast succession of Measures passed by the Church Assembly, presented to Parliament, passed either without debate or with but little criticism, giving the Church exactly what they wanted with regard to the Prayer Book, to Liturgy, to vestments, and to the Holy Table, and not least, as the Moberley Committee itself recommended, giving the Church of England, for the first time, complete autonomy in matters of ecclesiastical discipline. The ultimate appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council which, in those days, was regarded as objectionable, has been removed at the request of the Church. The history of the last forty
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years shows that Parliament has consistently acquiesced in the wishes of the Church of England to regulate its own affairs. I myself have taken part in a number of debates in another place when Measures have come before that House for approval. I would observe that on no occasion that I can remember has there been any substantial criticism of the merits of a particular Measure. The concern of the Lower House—and I have no doubt it is equally the concern of this House—has chiefly been directed to see whether the mind of the Church has been completely made up on the point at issue, and whether there is any considerable minority opinion that could possibly be offended as a result of majority decisions in the Church Assembly.
The Owen Chadwick Commission puts forward three reasons for suggesting some modification of the present arrangement. I think basically the Owen Chadwick Commission's Report is against disestablishment, as was the Moberley Coin, mission. But it does draw attention to matters in which it says that there might well be some further diminution of the links between Church and State. I profoundly disagree with all of them, but they are worth examination. In the first place, it is said that there is still some objection felt in some Church quarters, but not all Church quarters, about the fact that Measures have to come before Parliament at all. Here again, as the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, said, Parliament frequently has to deal with matters on which it is not particularly expert. Professor Norman Sykes, afterwards Dean of Winchester, once said that the history of the 19th and early 20th centuries shows that it has often been the function, subsequently applauded, of Parliament
"to retard, and perhaps even frustrate, the designs of particular churchmen and clergy towards alterations which were in advance of the general parity of opinion."
I believe it is precisely the same situation to-day. I regard the very limited measure of veto or control which Parliament still exercises over ecclesiastical Measures is not unlike the delaying power which this House exercises over Bills that come from another place, and is to be regarded in precisely the same light.
Then it is said that the system of the appointment of Bishops by the Crown, on

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the recommendation of the Prime Minister, is a cause of offence in some quarters. My experience, from a reasonably wide circle of those who are members of the Church of England, clergy and lay, is that this alleged grievance is not very generally felt. My experience is that a predominant number of members of the Church of England are quite content with the present system. First of all, as other noble Lords have said, it works extremely well in practice. No one has doubted that. Secondly, everybody who has considered the matter knows, and others ought to know, that appointments are only made after a vast amount of consultation by the Appointments Secretary to the Prime Minister—consultations not only with the diocese concerned, but with the province, with other ecclesiastical bodies concerned, with the laity, and with all authorities directly concerned with the appointment. I do not think there could be any more painstaking examination, particularly now that we have the Vacancy-in-See Committee set up, as a result of the recommendations of the Howick Commission, to give advice on the needs of the particular diocese. Therefore, there really can be no complaint about the amount of consultation with all interested authorities in Church and State that takes place before a recommendation is made by the Prime Minister to the Crown.
As other noble Lords have said, experience has also shown—which is probably the case—that some of the most notable and significant appointments in recent years, controversial at the time, would hardly have been possible under any other system. One only has to mention such names as Hensley Henson, Charles Gore, George Bell and (dare I say it?) Bishop Barnes, to doubt whether any of them could have been appointed under any other system. I go further. It is said by some opponents of the present system that however well it works in practice, it is all wrong in theory that the Prime Minister, or the State, should have anything to do with the appointment of Bishops. There I profoundly disagree. I think it is as right to-day as it ever has been. It always has been the case that the State, acting through the Prime Minister, has a vital interest, on behalf of the nation, to secure the best possible
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appointments to the Episcopal Bench. After all, as the Owen Chadwick Commission says, the State is also one of God's instruments. I take the view that the State is vitally interested in securing the best possible appointments to the Episcopal Bench, and for this reason, if for no other reason, that a Bishop, when appointed, is not merely the president of his particular diocese, he has a national position. He occupies a position in the life of the nation which is one of influence and responsibility. What he says is listened to by a circle beyond those for whom he has a particular and direct spiritual responsibility. Therefore, I would be against any change in the present system of appointment of Bishops.
Another argument put forward for disestablishment is that it is an objection, or a hindrance, to reunion. As the most reverend Primate knows, I am entirely dedicated to the ecumenical movement. I do not believe that the present links between the Church and the State are any hindrance to reunion. If I recall rightly, when the proposal for union with the Methodists was contemplated recently, that proposal was supported by a majority of the Methodists, notwithstanding the existing arrangements between Church and State.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, in the interests of accuracy, will the noble Lord allow me to interrupt and say that the Anglican-Methodist Report emphasised that the Methodist Church would not accept the present State link unless it was considerably modified?
LORD FLETCHER: My Lords, I am obliged to the most reverend Primate. I think it flows from what he said that the observations of the Methodist Union were somewhat ambiguous. But at any rate they voted in favour of the proposed scheme of reunion put forward at that time. My own view about the Ecumenical Movement and reunion is that, whereas there might be some difficulties about it for a long period of time to come, I do not think the cause of reunion would be in any way accelerated by the disestablishment of the Church of England. On the contrary, I fear that if the Church of England were disestablished it would lose a great deal of the allegiance which it

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now attracts; and that some part of that allegiance would go to the Church of Rome, while another part would go to the Free Churches. I think that a large part of the strength of the Church of England lies in the fact that it is a national church.
Here may I say, with great respect to the right reverend Prelates, the Bishop of Leicester and the Bishop of Chester, both of whom were members of the Commission, that I feel they did less than justice and laid too little emphasis on the feelings of that large, generally diffused, inarticulate, perhaps amorphous, body of citizens, who though not churchgoers assent to Christianity. The Commission tended to make assumptions with which I do not agree. They tended to assume that all Christians go to church. That is not necessarily the case, any more than it is the case that everybody who goes to church is a Christian.
Tim LORD BISHOP OF LEICESTER: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord will not think that any lack of emphasis in the final Report was brought about by a lack of desire on the part of some members of the Commission to emphasise those matters.
LORD FLETCHER: My Lords, I welcome that intervention. I would emphasise for the consideration of the Synod and other bodies when they come to consider the Reports that, whereas the Moberley Commission was unanimous, the recent Report seems to me to be riddled with dissent. I am bound to say that I entirely share the views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, that in the minds of a great many citizens in this country what is meant by the Establishment, and what is significant in the Establishment, is not so much the method by which bishops are appointed or the machinery by which Measures become law, but the fact that every citizen has the Common Law right—and has had it for centuries—to take his children to be baptised in the parish church; the Common Law right to be married in his parish church; the probability, particularly if he lives in the country, that he will be buried in the churchyard.
On top of that, there is the fact that he knows, and often claims and exercises, the right to ask the parish priest to go and see him and give him advice and
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guidance in times of emergency, with the corresponding right and duty of the parish priest of the Church of England, unlike a Minister of any other denomination, to visit every house in his parish. Those are the elements in the grass roots of our national life which, in the minds of a great many people, constitute the essentials of the Establishment; and they are some of the things which would go if the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, were carried.
I have trespassed too long on your Lordships' time, but may I say this in conclusion? I was a little doubtful about something which fell from the lips of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester. A situation might arise, though I hope it never will, in which the Church of England felt obliged—because it thought it could not otherwise carry out its spiritual duties—to come to Parliament and ask for disestablishment. If ever that day arises, and I hope it never will, I shall be against it.
But what I find really intolerable is that if this Motion were carried the State would be appearing to take the initiative in saying to the Church of England, "Go away and be disestablished. We do not want any further links with the Church of England. We wish a complete severance", and to be saying this at a time when one has no method of knowing what is the mind of the Church of England on this matter. The Report has been published only very recently. There is no reason to believe that it will be approved, either by the Synod or by members of the Church of England throughout the country, and certainly the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, has no reason to make that assumption.
Therefore, on any basis it seems to me premature, if not preposterous, to suggest that the State should come and tell the Church that the State wants to disestablish the Church. If that day arose, I think the situation would justify what Dr. Dollinger said many years ago:
"…the disestablishment of the Church of England would be a shock to the Nations throughout the World because it would be taken as the British people's deliberate repudiation of a continuous Christian tradition."
5.7 p.m.
LORD STRANGE: My Lords, I consulted with the Librarian and we found that there has not been a debate on disestablishment of the Church of England

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for over a hundred years. I do not quite know how the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, is going to work that out. I think he said that earlier it was merely a case of Gladstone bickering, not initiating a debate.
LORD ABERDARE: There was his book.
LORD STRANGE: He really did not initiate a debate on disestablishment?
LORD ABERDARE: No.
LORD STRANGE: Then there has never been one. So that this is a historic occasion, not perhaps for us sitting here to-day, but for the future when the history of this epoch is written.
I rather wish that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester could go on with what he said. I rather wish that the clock of the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, had stuck at ten minutes to three and that we were not having this debate to-day. I am very nervous about speaking on the subject, but I feel that I should speak because one takes one's Oath and one is supposed to speak about what one thinks really important. I have private religious beliefs, which I hold very strongly, and I have possessed them for 23 years. I feel that they make a very big difference to this debate, so I feel impelled to give them.
I am hardly ever nervous about making a speech, but I shall be very nervous about speaking on this subject. In fact, I shall be a very cautious cat walking on very hot bricks, for what I say is difficult. But as a Member of your Lordships' House I feel that I should say it. Nor can I promise to be particularly brief, because I am not really speaking to your Lordships; I am speaking to Hansard—not to Hansard of to-day, but Hansard of twenty years ahead. I apologise if I appear to be nervous. The last time I was nervous was four years ago, when I was asked to propose a toast at a wedding reception in the Hyde Park Hotel, which was packed for the occasion. The toastmaster rose and said, "Your Highnesses, your Graces, my Lords, ladies and gentlemen. We shall now cut the cake." So I quietly went back to wait. Later on he began again: "Your Highnesses, your Graces, my Lords, ladies and gentlemen. The toast
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is 'The Bride'." The next thing for I heard was "Look the other way"—"I was to take a photograph"—"Please don't"—"Look, dear"—"I was talking"—"Please, now please!"—Then, flash! My wife was there to share the day, and I went absolutely white in the face—a thing I do not often do. I shall probably do that as I am speaking to-day, my Lords.
I think I would start by saying that it I am sitting in a beautiful cathedral (of which we have many in this country), listening to some marvellously spiritual man, with a lovely voice, like the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chichester, reading the 1662 Prayer Book in its beautiful English, and hearing a lovely choir singing, I half shut my eyes and see it all as a great tapestry hanging from the hammer beams to the pavement of the floor. I see this tapestry woven with devotion right back through the centuries, with every thread put in with love, kindness and enormous faith. I see in it the tarnished threads of gold which have been the philosophies of very good men and very clever men in past centuries. I look at this tapestry and wonder sometimes: will it stand for ever?
My Lords, 23 years ago I was sitting in an ordinary church while the sermon was going on, thinking about this tapestry, and at that time, or just before then, professional philosophy or official philosophy had given up using metaphysical concepts. I thought of all the young people coming up in the world who would look at the tapestry and not believe the philosophies; who could not believe them without metaphysical concepts. At that moment during the sermon I wondered whether I was going to go on believing the philosophies. During a sermon you can always take out a Bible—it is quite a correct thing to do; it looks as if you are reading the text to make quite sure what it says. So I took cut my Prayer Book and I looked at what I do not think should be called a creed, actully, but which is attributed to St. Athenatius though I believe it was constructed many years after his death. It is a sort of dog's dinner philosophy, and I wondered how long I could go on saying, "This is the Christian faith". I wondered very much whether I would finish by saying, "Those who do not believe will be cast into fire eternally", or, I think it is, "will be damned eternally"—or, anyway, they

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are not being given any chance unless they believe this thing, which is very difficult for even educated persons to understand.
As I was going out of the church the padre smiled at me as we shook hands and said, "I see you were following the sermon". I said, "Yes, it was very interesting". Liar! I had not listened to a word of it—not a word. Was I a traitor, too? I went outside, and I wondered, "Are you a traitor?" I had, I assumed, been baptised in a decent basin provided by the parish, and I had, I know, been confirmed. Was I turning against the whole thing? It worried me a bit. Then I thought it was not exactly being a traitor; what I was doing was just bad taste. It was like suddenly thinking that able-bodied women should open doors for themselves. But when I got home I thought: "This is not fair. It is not fair to my church, it is not fair to me. What on earth do I know about the Church? Do I know the early history? Do I know anything about it?" I came to the conclusion that I knew nothing about its history at all. That night I wrote to my library, which was a fairly extensive library, and a few days later, having taken the manuscript of the book I was writing and dumped it in a cardboard box, I had a whole pile of books porcupined with bits of paper stuck in here and there as indices. Then I got on my typewriter, and finally I formed a very private idea, which I have never thought of telling anybody (that is why I am so amazed I am telling your Lordships of it to-day) of what my views on the early church were.
I began at B.C.6, which seems to be the birth of Christ. I think a very pardonable mistake was made in calculating the census date, but I think B.C.6 is correct. I was interested to know that for a long time Haley's Cornet was attributed to be the star, but now I think it is accepted that it would be Kepler's transit of Venus and Saturn, which occurred in B.C.6. I was interested, but not surprised, to know that Christmas Day was fixed in the year 350, to coincide with the feast of December 25, which was an old feast. I was not surprised particularly: I was trying to be unbiased; I was trying to know what I was believing in. Then I fixed that I would try to get a picture of the Christian era from B.C.6 to the fall of
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Jerusalem, and I got a picture which I think was historically accurate.
I got a picture of a marvellous, religious race; the only spiritual race in the world with spiritual kings and spiritual aristocracy, who had lost the colossal faith that they had when Abraham sacrificed his son and who were now split into desperately opposed sections which would not speak to each other but inveterately hated the Roman rule—a nation which for the first time was very unsure of itself, what was going to happen to it. I found that there were a lot of lay preachers through the whole of my period coming out of the desert. You might say that the Holy Land was a sort of Hyde Park, the Marble Arch end, but with an audience who all knew their Bible, chapter and verse. Some of these were historical characters. I was interested to know that the Jews really did expect a Messiah—partially, I thought, by a bit of choosey stuff with their prophets, taking a paragraph here and there, and also to a great extent by wishful thinking. I realised that while the ordinary people obviously, as we would say to-day, not 23 years ago, hoped for a Moshe Dayan to come in, the religious sect did expect a new prophet. I think that is definitely true, and there is historical evidence that they questioned some of the lay preachers coming in. John the Baptist, who is an historical character, for instance, was questioned to see whether his views were heretical or not, or if he was indeed the Messiah who was expected.
My Lords, I went on with the history. I was particularly interested in the lay preachers coming in from the desert, and one thing which interested me—and, after all, it is now 23 years ago that I learned this; I have a reasonable memory—was that about six years after the Crucifixion a speaker came in, who I do not think has got an historical name, who collected such an enormous crowd that the Governor told the troops to disperse it. The troops were not fond of the Jews, they killed a lot of people in dispersing the crowd, and the prisoners they took were executed. Pilate was recalled to Rome; and from that date on the rest of its history is legendary.
I went on to the terrible end of Jerusalem, to the terrible siege—with the desert seething with false prophets. One such was Jesus of Arlam with his

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"Gospel of the Four Winds of Jerusalem". Another was John of Escala, an agitator, who was a terrible man. Throughout the siege he raised people to attack the different sects, the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Zealots, and so on. It was a terrible siege; the city was packed and there was practically no food. The defending guards had to loot in order to get enough strength to fight against the invaders. The Romans were tough with those who escaped; they cut off the hands of the women and crucified the men. One Jew who was being crucified burst open with the amount of gold that he had swallowed. And when they got into Jerusalem, the Bedouin auxiliaries disembowelled the survivors. The story of Jerusalem at that time is a terrible one; with the temples on fire and with John of Escala leading a terrible last rush through the flames to the Temple. I think that was the end of the cycle.
My Lords, I was rather surprised that there was no historical evidence of Jesus of Nazareth. It is all right, my Lords; I am a Christian—it will be all right! There is actually a reference in Josephus whose history covered this period; but the early Churches agree that the account of Jesus of Nazareth was an insertion by some Christian scribe who was called, I think, Justus of Tiberies. He was a Galilean and he wrote a chronicle during the whole time. It is said that there is no mention in it of Jesus of Nazareth; but his chronicle was destroyed in the Middle Ages, and no one really knows. One would have thought that the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, would have made some reference to Rome of the Crucifixion; but there is no reference.
I had to think this subject over for quite a long time, because I have always felt that Christianity was right. Then I started to study the arrival of the Gospels. I think I am correct in saying that St. Matthew's was the first of the Gospels. It was written down, I believe, about twenty years after the death of Christ. I "mugged" this up about 23 years ago, so there is no difficulty about memory; one can remember what one likes. The point I wish to make to your Lordships is that I believe that a lot of the Gospels is direct reportage, and I accept them as the truth. I thought that I would never say this to anybody, but I must say it in
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this House, because it is a picture of a different form of thought about Christianity that I have and I daresay a lot of other people have. I accept it because I believe it is true.
I do not know that I believe that it is quite as true as the tapestry that I have described, with the golden threads. I did a lot of work, without getting very far, into the secret sects of the early Church, to find out how the early Church was formed. I can give my views quite simply by saying that it seems that the best part of the teaching is based on the interview with Nicodemus, which sounds absolutely true and direct reportage. I think it is given by St. John, who wrote his Gospel when he was an old man.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord. We always listen to him with great interest and I know that he is giving a most sincere account of how his views were formed; but I was wondering whether he would realise that this debate is about the disestablishment of the Church of England. I hope that perhaps before his voice gives out he will give us his views on that subject.
LORD STRANGE: My Lords, I should be only too pleased to do so. The trouble is that what I am trying to explain is very difficult to explain and I do not see how I can do it without giving this preamble. I will stop immediately I see an eyelid blink. I feel that this interview with Nicodemus is the most important thing in the Bible. Nicodemus was an historical character, an old man. The question was how to inherit eternal life. And he said, "Re-birth!" When the Christian Church was being formed, they decided that the way to re-birth was by the suppression of the Devil, the Devil being a perfect symbol of the hereditary instincts, half man, half beast. There were two ways to re-birth: one, suppression; and one, recognition—know yourself!
I came to the conclusion that I myself should practise recognition; because during the last century the Church attacked Darwin—and the Church lost. And they turned more to the tapestry than they had done. I felt that the Christian teaching of "know yourself!" was made very comprehensible in those days. I started to make a study of it myself; and

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I have been studying it since then, for over twenty years. The Christian teaching of "know yourself!" should be taught to-day, because I believe that everybody can understand it. I believe that it works and that it brings results; and this has not been so with the "suppression" teaching which has continued almost through time.
Clearly, the teaching of "Christian, know yourself!" agrees completely with modern science, so far as we have got. I think that science agrees with this rebirth theory. If you know your hereditary instincts, know them well and understand them, then they have no power over you. Life is nearly completely automatic; we are nearly completely automatic. To gain free will we must know why we are automatic. If we know why we are automatic, if we understand why, then we can gain a degree of free will which has never been possessed by any form of life on this earth.
What I am saying is easily contradicted, but I believe that it is true. This is what the Church of the future should be teaching to children in school; it is basic Christianity. I know that I am speaking too much; but this is important and I must try to give one example—
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I do think that the attention of the House should be drawn to Standing Order No. 27.
LORD STRANGE: My Lords, my speech has ended.
5.30 p.m.
LORD ILFORD: My Lords, this has been a most interesting and for some of us a most helpful discussion this afternoon. So far as I am concerned, it has helped me greatly to clear my mind on the difficult and complex subjects that we have been discussing.
The matters that we have been debating this afternoon are the very foundation and basis of the Church of England, and whatever we may consider to be their present usefulness they ought not to be modified or changed without clue and searching examination. That I trust, in this House and elsewhere, these proposals will receive.
My noble friend's Motion asks us to consider whether the Church of England should continue to be established. That,
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I think, involves the question of the status of establishment. The Report itself gives considerable space to the various phases through which establishment may pass and the various aspects of the Church which may be described as being within the Establishment. I think one of the things that your Lordships have to decide is at what stage along the road to change you can say that the Church is no longer established.
My Lords, the draft Measure adopted by the Archbishops' Commission goes a long way and gives the General Synod unrestricted control of the forms of worship without the veto of Parliament, to which such strong objection has sometimes been taken in the past; but it is restricted to forms of worship.
There are other, far-reaching changes. The position of the Crown is changed; the selection and appointment of bishops has also changed—in fact it has been completely altered. On that matter I am entirely in support of my noble friend Lord Hawke, and the noble Lord, Lord Fletcher. I think the present method of selecting bishops has justified itself in the character and status of those who have been chosen for that great office. Though I myself would desire to see no change there, one reads through the Report of the Archbishops' Commission, and indeed other literature on the subject, and not infrequently comes across criticism of the method of appointing bishops.
It has always seemed to me that that criticism is based upon a measure of ignorance of the way in which this House conducts its business and the part which the bishops take in our deliberations. I am sure that much of the criticism of the present arrangements for selecting and appointing bishops arises from the fact that those who make it have no real experience of the subject. We in this House can correct that.
Are these changes which I have endeavoured to enumerate in themselves sufficient to meet the objections of some of those who have advocated disestablishment, or indeed of those other Churches who have looked upon the Establishment as an obstacle to unity? Are these changes which are suggested and adopted by the Archbishops' Commission sufficient to bring about that result? They

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are changes which would certainly not satisfy my noble friend. He would make the General Synod the governing body of the Church, with power to modify the Church law without the intervention of Parliament at any stage. That recommendation is limited to forms of worship; it does not extend beyond that.
I think that what I have said has shown that when the contest (if it is to be a contest) for disestablishment takes place, the opposition will come not so much from the Establishment as it exists to-day, but from the Establishment as it is modified by a recommendation of the Archbishops' Commission. It will not be so easy to ensure that establishment, in the eyes of those who believe in it, does not go too far.
My Lords, sooner or later we shall have to choose between these two alternatives. We cannot do that this afternoon. The Report of the Archbishops' Commission must come before Parliament in some way, and it must be fully and adequately debated outside Parliament before we see it. The Church must then decide how far it is necessary for it to go along the road to disestablishment, or indeed whether it is necessary for it to go that way at all.
May I turn for a moment to another and different matter. When this momentous—and it is momentous—decision is taken, I hope the authorities will not, as indeed I am sure they will not, forget the sentiments of the man in the pew or the man on the parochial church council. My noble friend Lord Hawke very appropriately described these men as "the silent majority". The silent majority are an important force in the life of the Church. On the whole, I think that they approve of the Establishment. They feel that the links with which the State is bound to the Church give the Church an authority which it would not otherwise possess. Therefore, I hope that the views of that element of church people will be taken fully into account. The Archbishops' Commission deals very fairly with them. My noble friend was about to read us a passage I think from paragraph 102. I hope that my noble friend will also look at paragraph 217, which contains an admirable piece of writing on the subject of the silent majority.
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That is all I desire to say. I will perhaps repeat the congratulations to my noble friend for the very careful and adequate manner in which he has presented his case. I trust that when the time comes the old foundations of the Establishment on which the Church very largely rests will remain intact and will not be ruthlessly modified or destroyed.
5.38 p.m.
LORD BALERNO: My Lords, it had been my intention to sit on the sidelines in this debate and listen to the Church of England trying to solve problems to which the Church of Scotland had found a solution half a century ago. But on reflection this seemed to me to be a rather self-satisfied and selfish kind of attitude, and so I venture to intervene in the hope that what I say may be helpful. It certainly is not meant to be critical, for conditions of history, geography and anthropology are so very different, the one kingdom to the other, as my noble friend Lord Aberdare pointed out, quoting that eminent and famous Scot, William Ewart Gladstone.
Compared with the Church of Scotland, the Church of England over recent centuries has been remarkably free of schism. For centuries we in Scotland have been rent asunder. It is as one of those schismatics that I venture to speak, for I was born, as the Scots phrase goes, a son of the manse—and a Free Kirk manse at that!—where we gloried in the great schism of 1843 called The Disruption. If memory serves me right, more than half the ministers left the Established Church of their fathers at that time to form the Free Kirk. They left their manses, their homes—and many had large families—to build new churches and new manses. My Lords, the reason for all this was patronage, the power of the State in the Church. This great disruption of 1843 was the culmination of a series of schisms going back over 150 years or more. Soon after this, however, the concept of reunion of the Presbyterian Churches in Scotland grew, and by the end of the century the main streams of the dissenting Presbyterians were all reunited into the powerful and more numerous United Free Church of Scotland, standing up against the Established Church. The desire for complete reunion grew, but there remained the one great

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stumbling block, the relation of Church and State. It is on this point that I venture to advise your Lordships to-day.
To obtain this freedom, freedom without disestablishment, an Act of Parliament was essential. There was no question among the people of Scotland that this freedom was desirable, but the people as a whole took no steps through Parliament to give effect to it. It was realised that the first move had to come from the Church of Scotland itself—a Church of diverse elements, though, I must add, nothing like so diverse as the Church of England. It took time, my Lords—nearly a quarter of a century—for the Church of Scotland to realise her position and to ask Parliament for the necessary Act. That this Act became law without opposition and without further schisms was due to the canny manner in which the leaders of the Church of Scotland set about it, and to the fact that Parliament and public opinion stayed right out of the matter at those stages. And so, my Lords, my advice to you to-day is that, no matter how desirable are the objectives of this Motion, this is a matter on which the Church of England herself should make the going, and certainly not Parliament.
I had the privilege of being present in Westminster Abbey at the inauguration of the General Synod, and it seems to me that if the General Synod means anything, it is that from now on the diversities of this great Church can be recognised and can express themselves. When you adopt a democratic course there are, of course, dangers and perils, but on the whole, provided that you give time for reflection and consideration and care, in Church affairs at any rate, you will come up in the end with the right answer. It was more than a privilege to be present in Westminster Abbey that day, and I say that deliberately. It was indeed for me a very great spiritual experience. My conclusion in the whole matter is that the Church and her leaders can go forward to reform with confidence and that we who are not of the Church of England should leave the Church to decide her own destiny, without interference by the State or by Parliament.
5.45 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP or CHESTER: My Lords, this has been a most interesting
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and valuable debate. We must express our gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for the way in which he introduced his Motion; for the charity, courtesy and calmness of his approach and for the expressions of opinion to which his Motion has given rise. As I am the last to speak from this Bench perhaps I may claim the privilege of commenting on one or two of the speeches that we have heard. I should first of all like to express our extreme gratitude for the two speeches we have heard from the Front Benches. The speeches by the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and by the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, were extremely understanding and sympathetic. I know that they will be greatly appreciated by members of the Church of England, who will find them very encouraging and helpful.
On behalf of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester and myself, I must demur slightly to the noble Lord, Lord Fletcher, who suggested that we had minimised the influence and importance of the general Christian character of this country, which cannot be measured necessarily by attendances in places of public worship. We were, I think, the leaders of the Commission in emphasising the importance of that matter. We feel that here the sociological survey at the end of the Report is of great importance. This is one of the factors that the right reverend Prelate and I, and others, felt was of first importance.
I shall hope to comment on one or two matters in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, but I have been challenged to comment on the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, and to answer the question whether the Bench of Bishops have been offended by it. My Lords, I do not know all the criteria accepted by those who have the responsibility of advising the Prime Minister as to who should be made Bishops; but one should certainly be that a Bishop should have a broad back. If he has not acquired one by the time he becomes a Bishop, he very soon acquires one afterwards. I can assure you that no one would have been offended by the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont.
At the same time, I think that we are saddened by the fact that Lord Beaumont

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should devote so much of his enthusiasm and his passion to matters which, I can assure him, are quite illusory. For instance, he raised the canard of the Bishops' secret meetings—this conclave of scheming prelates who are up to no good in thinking out things for the Church of England. It is perfectly natural that the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury should, from time to time, wish to consult in private with his fellow Bishops about matters of concern to their pastoral ministry. Nothing more than that happens; and if Lord Beaumont has these ideas, I can only exclaim, if only he knew the truth! The noble Lord has suggested that the Bishops measure the way in which they vote by some directive from above. Again I can assure him that no such directive is ever issued; and if it were, no Bishop would measure his vote by such instruction.
The noble Lord raised the question of the curious differences that there are occasionally in the numbers of Bishops voting one way or the other. Again I can assure him that there is a perfectly simple and practical explanation. Sometimes matters of great moment arise in this House at a time when the Bishops have to be in London, as, for instance, at the General Synod or at Bishops' meetings; therefore it is natural and easy for them to be present in your Lordships' House and to vote. There are other occasions on which matters of great importance arise when it is virtually impossible for a Bishop to be present. We are the only Members of this House who are here by virtue of the fact that we have another office to perform. The Order Paper often gives very short notice of some important matter. The noble Lord thinks that we ought to down tools in our dioceses and at whatever cost come up to London in order to vote. I think that others of us would have a different idea, both of our pastoral responsibility and of the courtesy we owe towards those in our charge; and we would hesitate long, for instance, in disappointing thirty or forty young people over their confirmation simply because we have to come to London. Many of us live three or four hours away from this House, and although we would wish to come here to vote, often we have to leave before a vote is taken in order that we can be at home to do our work.
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The main illusion which I sensed in the point of view of the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, was that he feels that the ills of the religious life of this nation can be changed by changing circumstances: that if we disestablish the Church of England, then we shall have gone a long way to putting right many of the things which those who care for the religious life of the country regret at the present time. I believe this to be an illusion. I do not think that we can put these things right merely by changing circumstances. I do not believe that the establishment or disestablishment of the Church would be a vital factor in putting right many of those matters about which the noble Lord rightly feels so strongly.
LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEY: My Lords, I wonder whether I may thank the right reverend Prelate for the ex-extremely eirenic way in which he has replied to my remarks. I should like to make it perfectly clear that I did not at any time suggest that there was any kind of directive to the Bishops, or that they would pay any attention to it, if there were. That was not the implication at all.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHESTER: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord.
There has been an air of unreality about this debate by reason of its timing. This has meant that there have been occasional references to the Church and State Report, which is in fact not mentioned in the noble Lord's Motion and, indeed, is not a document which is in any formal way before the House. Difficulty has arisen because we have moved from the terms of the Motion to the various aspects of the Report and then back again.
I do not propose to refer in detail to the Church and State Report, except to comment on two points which have been made from time to time in the debate. First, a good deal of capital has been made by stressing the divergencies which arose on the Commission. But that is not the proper interpretation of the mind of the Commission. There were seventeen members of the Commission. One of them, Mr. van Straubenzee, was unable to sign because he accepted Government office before the final signing of the Report. Three members signed a minority or dissenting Report. All the

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others were agreed about the desirability of obtaining freedom in matters of liturgy and doctrine. They were all agreed that there ought to be some modification in the procedure by which Bishops and other chief ministers are appointed; and the only major disagreement was the way in which that particular issue ought to be approached. So there was not any kind of major disagreement within the Commission.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, took me to task for signing the Report of a Commission so many members of which had expressed the view that if establishment continued, it would make reunion difficult or impossible. I do not know why he singled me out for this particular honour because my right reverend friend the Bishop of Leicester was also a signatory of that part of the Report. Possibly the noble Lord did not like to challenge two Lords Spiritual at one time. I must, however, point out to him that he is quoting one opinion of a certain part of the Commission which was in a minority, whereas my right reverend friend and I, and others, signed the Report because we are convinced, as has been said by other noble Lords, that establishment is not by any means the greatest barrier to the reunion of Christendom and it is not necessarily an impenetrable one.
As your Lordships have been reminded, the Church of England is itself much concerned about the nature of the Establishment and about some of the consequences which flow from it. There are some members of the Church of England who would agree with the noble Lord in seeking disestablishment. There are others—and I would judge them to be a very large majority of the Church of England—who, while not believing that disestablishment would be right, believe it is essential that there should be considerable modification in the relationships of Church and State.
It was because of the concern within the Church itself about the consequences of the links between the Church and the State that in 1965 the Archbishops appointed this Commission. It took that Commission five years of intensive work to elucidate all the issues. Their Report was published in December of last year, and it will be debated in the General Synod in a month's time. The Church
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generally will need a considerable period of time to digest its contents and to come to a common mind about the right course of action for the future. I cannot think that Parliament will want to decide what should be done until it has heard the views of the constitutional assemblies of the Church. I feel sure that this House will hesitate before reaching a decision of such far-reaching consequences both for the Church and the State as is contained in the noble Lord's Motion, after a short debate of a few hours. I hope therefore that at the end of the debate, the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, will see fit to withdraw his Motion. He may be confident that his views and all that has been said in this debate will have made a valuable contribution to the thinking and discussion which must be devoted to the subject in the coming months.
The Motion before the House is concerned more with the means by which the Church of England should be disestablished than with the desirability of disestablishment itself. Should it ever be thought desirable that the Church should be disestablished, then I think it would generally be agreed that the Motion suggests a reasonable basis for discussion on the means whereby the process should be carried out. But first, the Church and the State, acting in concert, have to decide whether or not disestablishment is desirable. That is the first area of debate. It is a controversial and a complicated issue. It is not one upon which, I would suggest, we can decide this afternoon.
For myself, if I were persuaded that for the greater well-being of either the Church or the State, it was desirable that the special relationships between them in this country should be dissolved, I would unhesitatingly add my voice to those who advocate disestablishment. There are some who hold that the sanctions which establishment places upon the Church are a hindrance to the fulfilment of its mission: they consider it improper that the State should have a voice in the way the Church conducts its business; they hold that establishment gives to the Church of England a false sense of values, a spurious sense of its own importance, a folie de grandeur. They believe that the Church would be healthier and more effective if such privileges as accrue to the Church of England by virtue of establishment were to be removed.

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Again, there are those who from the angle of the State think that the time has come for the long and close relationship of Church and State to be dissolved. They hold that this would be a realistic appreciation of the present state of affairs. They would say that religion no longer, for good or ill, occupies a decisive place in men's thought and action. So they would contend that the Establishment represents an age that is past, and we had better get rid of it as part of the general tidying-up process of ridding ourselves of archaic attitudes and institutions.
I can respect such points of view. But I believe them to be mistaken. Of course one can envisage circumstances in which it might be desirable to seek disestablishment. If the State were to withhold from the Church the means by which it could reasonably carry on its business with despatch and efficiency; if the Church were demonstrably to show that it had departed from the principles of the settlement between Church and State or of the tolerance by which it can as a national Church serve the whole nation if there were to be a clear case that the Church of England had ceased to be the Church of the people or England a Christian nation in essence, then there would be grounds for disestablishment.
But, my Lords, I do not believe that such conditions exist. On the other hand, to force the issue of disestablishment at this juncture would in my view do great harm. I take but two illustrations. On the side of the Church we are reaching the end of a long period of administrative reform. This has meant that for the past half century at least the Church has been looking at itself—looking inwards—concerned about its own discipline and its own structures. This has given the public the image of a body interested only in itself, obsessed with ecclesiastical minutiæ. We are moving out of this necessary but misleading period of our activity. We are now looking forward to being able to serve the nation. But if at this moment the Church is forced back to involve itself in the vast constitutional, administrative, legislative and financial problems which disestablishment would involve, then again for the next ten years the Church will be diverted from its primary function of service to the community, back to
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the frustrating task of house-keeping and internal organisation.
From the point of view of the State, I believe that disestablishment would bring great loss. In this country Church and State have grown up together, forming the weft and woof of the fabric of our society. However straightforward the legislative process might be, it would not be easy to disentangle these two elements of our national life without creating many rents and tears. Admittedly there have been times when the influence of the Church of England has not been what it should have been. But, by and large, I venture to claim that many of the influences and attitudes in our national life of which we are most proud are the result of the imprint of the civilising power of Christianity over many centuries. Should disestablishment come, the harm would be not so much in the often-repeated expectation that it would be interpreted as a national apostasy, but that the subtle checks and balances of the spiritual against the material would no longer be present, and, if not immediately, after a time, the State would be the poorer because there was no longer as a part of its structure the reminder of the eternal verities to which we are all responsible.
I am all the more fortified in my convictions when I remember the strong reforming influences which are at work in Christendom at the present time, and in particular in the Church of England. There have, it is true, been times when the Church of England has taken improper advantage of its privileged position; it has been arrogant towards other Christian Churches; it has not unreasonably evoked the irritation and opposition of other Christian communions. This unhappy state of affairs has almost completely disappeared. The establishment of the Church of England is no longer, so far as I can judge, a major cause of resentment among non-Anglican Christians. It is not, of itself, I believe, the most serious barrier in the way of reunion; indeed, many Free Churchmen value the formal relationship of some kind between Church and State. But if the Church and State Commission are right in their assertion that this country is becoming not so much more secular but less denominational, then as we look forward to the future it may be that the Establishment will in the process of time

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become less Anglican and more representative of all Christian bodies.
My Lords, this country has a genius for developing and re-moulding institutions which were formed under very different historical circumstances, so that they become up-to-date and relevant servants of the present time. Parliament, the Administration, the Judiciary, the Crown have all been able to adjust themselves to modern needs. How much the poorer we would have been had we scrapped them! What lessons we learnt when we tried to do so!
It is my conviction that the relationship between Church and State in this country, which we call the Establishment, is in like manner capable of reform to the benefit of both partners. Over the centuries that process has been at work. There is urgent need for reforms and in due time doubtless your Lordships' House will have opportunity to deliberate upon them. If such reforms can be effected without a wholesale dismantling of the structure, such as Lord Grantchester's Motion suggests, it will, I believe, be to the advantage both of Church and of State.
6.8 p.m.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, it is far more important for the House to have heard the speech of the right reverend Prelate who has just sat down than to hear mine, and therefore I am glad to take second place to him. It has been said that it is over a hundred years since we debated this subject in your Lordships' House, but I can remember since early boyhood having heard the arguments, pro and con. I should like to consider first what we should lose if Disestablishment were to come to pass. The State Church performs functions apart from those which it performs purely as a Church, and particularly while we are still happy enough to enjoy a Royal Sovereign. If there were no State Church, what would happen in the case of a Coronation ceremony? Who would choose which Church was to celebrate that Coronation? There are many other public functions which involve a religious ceremony and where it is important that we should have a State Church.
A great deal has been said about the anachronism of State interference in the business of the Church. The noble Lord,
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Lord Beswick, complained of the financial support of the Church by the State.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, may I just say I complained of nothing of the kind. I quoted that as evidence of the lack of understanding and informedness of certain Members of your Lordships' House.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, I am sorry if I misunderstood the noble Lord. I can only say lo anybody who complains of that, that the State is very ready to support financially many things in this world, some of which are definitely opposed to us politically. I do not think it is wrong that it should support its own Church. Some consider it an extraordinary anachronism to have right reverend Prelates appointed by the Crown, with the advice of the Prime Minister. That may be so, and perhaps it is something which will be altered in the future. I do not think it any more of an anachronism than the fact that the Prime Minister should advise the Queen as to who should receive honours at the New Year, or on Her Birthday. Many of those things are matters about which the Prime Minister can have little knowledge and has to get advice from other quarters. But the result always seems to be right, so why should it not be so with the Bishops?
The noble Lord, Lord Beswick, also mentioned the embargo on the clergy from standing as Members of Parliament. Personally, I think this is quite right. The Church is not a political body and it does not want to involve itself in Party politics.
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, if that be so, may I ask the noble Lord why the right reverend Prelates are here today?
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, I was coming to that. I have sat in your Lordships' House for 18 years now, and I have never known one occasion when any Lord Spiritual has intervened in any debate which had not something to do with ethical considerations.
LORD CROOK: My Lords, would the noble Lord allow me to interrupt? As one who has been here for 23 years, I have heard a number of good speeches from the Benches of the right reverend Prelates.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, I, too, have heard many such speeches. I should like to say how happy I was to hear the speech of the right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Leicester. I do not know how many of your Lordships have read his book: What is Right With the Church of England. I found it an extremely encouraging book. Anybody who believes that there is anything wrong with the Church—and one hears a good deal of that nowadays—should read that book and see how much more is right with it than is wrong with it.
There are other little items such as Baptism, birth certificates and various things like that, which are tied up with an Established Church. It would be a great loss for us to lose them. The noble Lord, Lord Fletcher, said that the Church wishes to regulate its own affairs. Very rightly too, and may it continue to do so more and more. He also said that the system works well in practice, but is wrong in theory. I should say that the logical conclusion from that was that the theory was wrong. If a system works well and the theory is contrary to it, surely it is the theory that is wrong and not the system.
I have had some experience of a country where there is no Established Church—the United States. The confussion that exists there is indescribable. It is the happy hunting ground of innumerable strange sects which have sprung up, many of which can hardly be described as Christian at all: Scientologists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and many others. They all come from there; and why? It is because there is no central, official Church to lead the way. That is not the only reason, of course. I realise that their extraordinary variety in national descent is another reason for it. None the less, it is important that we should have a central, guiding, official Church. I believe strongly in the teachings of our Church, and I feel that we should lose a great deal, particularly in our schools, and on the radio, too, if we were to make it no longer the English Established Church.
6.17 p.m.
THE EARL OF LYTTON: My Lords, I speak as a Parliamentarian to-day—the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, invited me to do so—and I speak also as a Roman Catholic, because I want to, and
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nobody has asked me to do so. I have noticed during this debate that nearly every speaker was a member of the Church of England, paying tribute to his Church and expressing the view that anything that would harm it would not receive his support. The right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Chester, said that if he were convinced that Disestablishment would not harm the Church of England he would support it. I think he used those words. In my position as a Parliamentarian, and as a Roman Catholic, I would go even further and say that unless it was shown to be advantageous to the Church of England I would not vote for it. That is my position, and I should like to dwell a little on the experience of my life and the impact of the Church of England upon it.
Shortly after Her present Majesty came to the Throne, one of her first tasks was to make an Order in Council in some sense or other disestablishing me. The position was this. Two of the smallest parishes in England were Oare and Culbone. They have been combined, and it is the custom for the landlord of Oare—the Lorna Doone parish—to appoint one incumbent, and then for the landlord of the Ashley Coombe estate, which I owned, the other. But because I was a Roman Catholic I was debarred from doing this, and I was debarred in the most courteous manner that one could imagine. People said, "Of course, you cannot appoint an incumbent", and I agreed with them, for I did not cherish the idea—as I am sure, from what he said, the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, would not have done had he been asked to choose the Chief Rabbi. I was confident of my incompetence to handle the matter. But they said, "You may choose who will do so. You may choose the Bishop of Bath and Wells, or your neighbouring landowner". So, in a sense, they gave me the power to exercise a little active disestablishment of my own, and I disestablished my neighbouring landlord and appointed the Bishop of Bath and Wells.
The incumbent who followed soon called upon me, and he said, "You must have a horse. You cannot get about Exmoor without a horse". I am a horseman, but in those days I was living in a rather frugal manner and thought I could

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not afford a horse. Mr. Taylor took me more or less by the hand to a horsecoper of the honest sort. He said, "This cob is an animal which I would buy if I could afford it, and you must buy it." I bought it, and the animal was with us for twenty years. It taught all my family to ride; it taught some forty Continental mothers' helps, students, who came to us two by two and year by year—and when I say, "taught" them, it did. We put the girls on the horse, separately of course, told them to hang on to the saddle and not the reins, and patted the animal on the back and said, "Go". That was the only instruction we gave this remarkable animal; and we put it down, to the grief of the family, twenty years later.
Mr. Taylor, on departure, presented me with a large crucifix because he was not sure that his successors would appreciate it. His successor, a Mr. Brunskill, was approached by me one day. I said, "I am desperate for an assistant shepherd. Can you help me?". Twenty-four hours later the most suitable of men called upon me, after I had spent many a long day wondering how I could obtain such a man.
I must continue a little these experiences because they amount to a graciousness and courtesy which is unique. I was very ill in Algiers after an accident—a very short time; I recovered quickly. But during my illness the Church of England padre called upon me and, as he was a subscriber to the Catholic Truth Society, he poured in suitable literature for a Catholic. When the Catholic chaplin called upon me he gave me some theological works—I am interested in these matters—by Protestant writers, including a woman writer (I think Underhill was the name) and said, "These will be good for you." They had some of the best theological writers going at that time.
I will continue with another two examples. The most reverend Primate, Archbishop Lord Fisher, was sitting beside me on the Cross-Benches one day before an important debate took place. I suppose because he was sitting there he must have ceased to be Primate; he had retired. I said to him in regard to that debate, "There is going to be a Division. Have you any views?" "Well," he said, "I don't know very much about
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it, bat I tend to be on the side of the Establishment in such cases. It is odd and inconsistent because I am, in my position of history, a protestor." In this rather gracious way he seemed to intimate that I was a member of the Establishment, and he a dissident.
Finally, the last of these examples. On my wedding day I introduced to my wife a distant kinswoman of mine who had married late in life. She had been conned and proposed to by a great many and she knew hundreds of people in this country. Having been introduced, she pointed to my father and said to my newly wedded wife, "You have married the nicest father-in-law in London." And that was true. My father was a Protestant; it is my mother who was a Catholic. So in this way I have been intimately associated with the courtesies of life far and near at the hands of members of the Church of England.
I should like to continue briefly a short account of professional life. I was a professional soldier. I joined the Rifle Brigade and was with them for 27 years. The number of officers who were Catholics was very small; among the men, 10 per cent. were Catholics. During that time I was what is called not necessarily a good but a conspicuously practising Catholic. From time to time I used to go off daily to Mass on my bicycle. Everybody knew I was a Catholic. I have never suffered the slightest discourtesy or handicap in my career. If I am not a field marshal it is entirely my own fault. My brother officer, "Frankie Festing", Field Marshal Sir Francis Festing, an equally conspicuous Catholic, has found no difficulty in reaching the top.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, will the noble Earl allow me to interrupt? I am very sorry to do so, but I interrupted his colleague the noble Lord, Lord Strange, on this point. Although we are enjoying his reminiscences, and particularly the tribute he is paying to the Church of England, we are in fact engaged in a discussion on the disestablishment of the Church of England, and I hope the noble Earl may be able to stick to this particular point of the Motion.
THE EARL OF LYTTON: My Lords, I am extremely grateful that my noble friend Lord Strange is not the only one interrupted for irrelevancy, and I apologise. I will discontinue my illustrations as they have no bearing, apparently, on the point. But I will sum up my position again by saying that I would not vote for disestablishment in this House unless it were shown basically that it was advantageous to the Church of England. The course of this debate has shown, I think beyond question, that the great majority of speakers think it would not be to the advantage of the Church of England; and I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, would wish to urge anything that conspicuously harmed the Church of England. Therefore, although he invited me to join in this debate, my hope is that he will recognise the feeling of the House and withdraw his Motion, not with reluctance but from the heart.
6.28 p.m.
LORD SORENSEN: My Lords, I am sorry to extend this debate because I recognise that my name is not on the official list, or even the unofficial list. But I intimated some days ago that I wished to speak, and unfortunately through some error my name is not on the list. But I feel that it is incumbent on me to say a few words, first because I think nearly all the speakers to-day have been members of the Church of England—one or two may not have been, but most have been—and therefore, surely, it would be appropriate if one who is not a member of the Church of England, but a Free Churchman, added just a few words to what has been said.
I also want to speak on this subject because I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for putting down this Motion, although I hope he will withdraw it, for this would be not the best time or place to vote on such a serious issue. I fully appreciate that the Bishops of the Church of England, and indeed all the members of that venerable Church, wish for more time to discuss the Report and the recommendations of their Commission. They are quite entitled to do so, and I hope that in the next year or 18 months they will clarify their minds, and perhaps in course of time come to some considered consensus of opinion on what they think should be the best development
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of the Anglican Church in its relationship to the State in the days to come.
I am sure the Prelates will appreciate that this Commission was an Anglican Commission, and that there are others interested in this matter apart from Anglicans—I as a Free Churchman, and others who are members of no Church but sit in this House; obviously they are involved in the whole question of the future relation of Church and State.
I think that what the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, has been doing to-day is to anticipate the inevitable. I have not the slightest doubt that just as there have been substantial modifications to the authority of the Church in relationship to the State in the last few centuries, so in course of time we shall reach the stage when the present close alliance of Church and State will cease altogether. That is why I say that the noble Lord has been merely anticipating the inevitable.
Also, of course, he has been emulating Henry VIII, because the discussion at that time was about the disestablishment of the Catholic Church. All of us—or almost all of us—here now agree that that Church should be disestablished so far as this country is concerned. That was more or less settled at the time of the Reformation. Therefore the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, is merely logically proceeding further along the road, for if it was right and proper in distant time to decide that the Roman Catholic Church should not have the authority that it had at that time, then surely it is altogether appropriate and right that we should at least consider whether the residual authority of the Church of England should not also come to an end.
When we look back at the course of history we have to realise that the Church of England had very great power in the past and that that power has considerably declined. Even the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester quite rightly said, in reply to a remark made by the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, that the Bishops were here first. And that is perfectly true. We know full well that at one time abbots and bishops—ecclesiastics—often outnumbered Lords Temporal in the determination of the affairs of our State. That remained the position for a long time.

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Gradually the power of the Church became restricted and limited, and gradually it gave up some of its authority and power, until to-day of course it is in a position very different from that of its predecessors some centuries ago. There has been a retreat on the part of ecclesiastical authority, and I am sure the right reverend Prelates who are here, and other Prelates of the Church of England—and indeed the Church of England as a whole—agree that that has been good. There is an altogether different climate from that of years ago.
I would remind the House also of the 17th century, when great conflict took place in this country over the right of individuals to worship as they pleased and to form their own particular Churches. The existence of the Congregational Church and other independent Churches reminds us to this very day of the intense trouble that occurred in that century as between Christians, on the one hand, who did not want to be identified with the Church of England and those, on the other hand, who were not only pleased to be so identified but insisted that others also should be so identified. This is why there are still numbers of churches in this country called "meeting houses". They are not only Quaker, but Congregational and Unitarian, and they remind us of the time when no Nonconformist or dissenter could worship save in a meeting house. I remind the right reverend Prelates and the House of this fact (which of course is common history to anyone who knows a little of the past) merely to suggest that here to-day we are discussing the possibility of a further logical development of what already has taken place.
Therefore we have the right reverend Prelates here to-day in some force; and in greater force on other occasions. I welcome their presence, for whatever their predecessors may have been or may have done (and I say this without any sense of patronage or superficial flattery), I deeply appreciate the contributions made by the Prelates since I have been a Member of your Lordships' House. They belong to no Party—and quite rightly so. I am sure they make up their minds quite freely; but again and again they have given enlightened influence to this House, and indeed to the country as a whole. Therefore whatever I say is
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in no sense out of hostility to the Prelates, whose presence, I repeat, I deeply appreciate.
But, my Lords, the fact is that they are here this evening, sitting as representatives of a privileged Church. The mere fact that Prayers are said daily by one of the Prelates is a reminder of the fact that evidently, if not exclusively, there is a preferential medium for petitioning the Almighty, which must be preserved by members of the Church of England. This is but one symbol of much else one could mention, and which one would have mentioned had the hour not been relatively late, of the many privileges the Church of England still possesses. True, it has given up many past privileges. To-day only some 26 Prelates sit in this House, compared with many more who once sat here. This is in itself a contraction. Then, of course, the many recommendations that the Commission appear to be making, and others are making, regarding the future relationship of the Church of England to the State all indicate a moving away from the previous autocracy and authoritarianism with which the Church at one time was identified.
All this is to the good, but it still remains for us to ask ourselves two questions. The first is why it is that the Church of England should be the only ecclesiastical body recognised by the State. I ask that question because, in the first place, we know now that although a large number of people go to church to be married, or to have their relatives buried, they do so quite nominally, and not because they have any deep and profound conviction. I am sure that the right reverend Prelates recognise this. This is done because it is the thing to do. In my own area, for instance, there are two parish churches. Large numbers of people go to one or the other to get married. I have talked to some of these people and asked them what they thought about marriage and about the Church of England. They were utterly unconcerned about it: it was just the thing to do. This may have some value in it. What I am suggesting is that one must not assume that because there may be numerically a slightly larger number of people belonging to the Church of England, or getting married or baptised or confirmed or buried through Church of England

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channels, therefore that illustrates the much greater influence, and possibly much greater significance, of the Church.
When we come to what are sometimes called "committed Christians"—those who profoundly believe in the Creeds or the faith they are called upon to recite—then, I venture to suggest, we must recognise that there are at least as many Christians who are not members of the Church of England to-day as those who are members. Also one has to recognise that large numbers of people in this country are religiously minded without being specifically Christian. Some would say that, of course, of some members of the Church of England, including some Bishops.
As to what Christianity is, sometimes it is extremely ambiguous. I am reminded, for instance, of how the great and noble Archbishop Temple, in his undergraduate days, considered not only joining the Church of England but becoming a priest. He therefore approached his Bishop. The Bishop discovered that the young Temple had some slight doubts about the Virgin birth, and told him to go away and pray over it very carefully. He did, and, fortunately for the Church of England, and for the Archbishop, when he returned he confessed that he really believed in the Virgin birth. Had it not been so, he would never have been the Archbishop of Canterbury.
I mention that, my Lords, only to illustrate that there is some dubiety as to what exactly a Christian is. But, be that as it may, there are certainly large numbers here—Jews, Hindus, Pakistanis, Moslems, and indeed Humanists (because some of the noblest people in this country, and some in this House, are Humanists)—who have their own faith. It may not be a theological faith but it is very near to at least the ethical aspects of the Christian faith. We have to recognise this.
Therefore, I come back to my first question, and ask why should it be assumed that the Church of England is the only body officially to represent Christians and religious people in this country. When the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester, in a speech which impressed me very much indeed, argues—and indeed when the noble Lord, Lord Somers, argues in the same way—that if
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the Church were disestablished the country would suffer very gravely, that may be so. But what a reflection that is implicitly on those who are not members of the Church of England! Have the Congregationalists, the Baptists, the Methodists, the Quakers not had, and do they not still have, a profound influence on our national life? They are not established. Does anyone suggest that if the Church of England were disestablished, therefore, its spiritual power would decline? On the contrary, some members of the Church of England believe differently—that it would grow in strength and power and influence, precisely because in modern times it will have become free and independent to bear its witness.
Therefore, I see no reason why we should not anticipate the Church of England becoming the Episcopal Church in England, not of England. It is not altogether to the advantage of the Christian faith that only the Church of England should be identified with England. In fact, there are branches of other denominations all over the world doing wonderful work. There is the Episcopalian Church in America which is akin to the Anglican Church, but does not call itself Church of England. It calls itself Episcopalian; it believes in the episcopacy, for which a great deal can be said. I see no reason why in days to come the Church of England should not anticipate being the Episcopalian Church in England, with the Episcopalian Churches in other parts of the world.
Further, surely the members of the Church of England itself, whether the laity or the episcopacy, will recognise that in these days, when much is being done to draw together the sundered portions of Christendom, when the ecumenical movement is holding sway, when the World Council of Churches and the British Council of Churches now have within them all kinds of Protestant churches, when not even the Church of England has any kind of priority, it is as well at least to consider in a charitable way whether Christian faith in this country would not gain enormously if there were the same sense of equality among all kinds of Christian bodies as already exists in spirit and in fact inside the British Council of Churches and the World Council of Churches.

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That being so, I will not burden the House further by dealing with other matters that I should love to deal with. I merely say this in conclusion. I ask that the Motion that has been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, to-day should not be dismissed out of hand. He has, I think, performed a very useful service in reminding us of a deep and profound issue. I hope that he will withdraw the Motion, so that time can be spent by the Church in debating the proposals of a great Commission, and so that, generally speaking, we can consider the matter in a way we have not done for some years. But in the end, we have to come to the issue as to whether there should be a privileged Church, representing a minority of the people. Although it has performed great service to mankind and still can perform great service, should it have that position of privilege which is denied to others? Surely that can have only one democratic answer: that just as we have repudiated the divine right of kings, just as we have gradually, steadily but surely, limited the power of spiritual or secular autocracy, so that to-day we have a greater sense of equality and indeed of democracy in our midst, so also in the days to come these things must apply to the Church itself. All the difficulties that have been raised as to who should crown the Monarch and so on are quite subordinate; these can be settled in a quite charitable fashion. What we are, I think, needing to do in the days to come is to recognise for its own sake that the Church of England should be a free church, and in so doing exercise its power far more profoundly than it is doing even to-day.
6.46 p.m.
LORD GRANTCHESTER: My Lords, I should like to thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this very preliminary discussion, if I may so call it, because I certainly never expected a decision today on a matter of this complexity. I think that is clear from the wording of the Motion.
I was glad to hear the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester explain that he did not consider that Establishment was the greatest barrier to reunion. I never said that it was; it is only one of them. I was very glad to hear him speak of the pressures for reform.
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According to the noble Lords, Lord Fletcher and Lord Somers, Parliament should be very concerned on behalf of members of the Church of England; but no one, until the noble Lord, Lord Sorensen, suggested any such responsibility to the members of other communions, Roman Catholics and Nonconformists. One can only wonder why there should be this distinction.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester, has indicated that a year and a half may be taken up in a full consideration of the matters raised in the Report Church and State. I hope that consideration of this Report will take place in the wider setting of the changed thinking in other communions, both here and in other countries, to which a response should be apparent. Having said that, I agree that it is right to wait, in the hope that not too long will elapse before the most reverend Primate returns with the results of these deliberations in the General Synod and in the other bodies who will be considering this matter, for the leadership we need is dependent upon their decisions. Then it may be appropriate for the provisions of a Bill to give effect to their conclusions or to what Parliament may feel necessary. May I, as it were, leave it, as the last Government said of their application to join the Common Market, as a matter which remains on the table for future consideration. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

HERR RUDI DUTSCHKE: TRIBUNAL DECISION
6.50 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY LORD BROCKWAY rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will explain further their decision regarding the recommendations of the Immigration Appeals Tribunal that Herr Dutschke should be deported. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Unstarred Question which is in my name on the Order Paper. May I say first that it was clear in another place yesterday that the word "deported" was disliked, and may be technically inaccurate. I have no desire, therefore, to press that term, though the Question is on the Order Paper and must be moved in that manner.

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I should be personally quite ready to accept the use of the words, "should be asked to leave this country". The term is not an issue between us.
Yesterday there was a debate in another place upon this issue, and I do not want to repeat what was there said. I think it will be found, as I proceed, that I am approaching the subject from a different point of view and putting forward different considerations. Nevertheless, I should say at once that I share the view that it is unjustifiable to exclude Rudi Dutschke from this country on the ground that, while he has not been a danger to national security, there is a risk that he may be so in the future. I did not expect to be able to call upon his assistance, but I quote from Mr. Adrian Day (who is the Chairman of the Monday Club and of the Conservative Society at the London School of Economics), who seems to me to put the point very well.
"He"—
that is Rudi Dutschke—
"is thus not only presumed guilty until proven innocent, but prescribed guilty before even the crime has been committed."
Danger to national security in the past has been interpreted as "serving the interests of a hostile foreign power". As I understand it, there is no suggestion that Rudi Dutschke is a risk in this respect. Indeed, he was a refugee from East Germany, and has repeatedly made clear his opposition to the authoritarian régimes of Communist States.
In yesterday's debate the Home Secretary made it clear that the potential danger of Rudi Dutschke, in his mind, is political and social in the United Kingdom rather than in foreign affairs. This is a very significant extension. I recognise at once that it has some basis; that there is to-day a violent fringe among students in a youth movement which is international in scope and which may become dangerous to the method of democratic political changes by persuasion. And yet I am disturbed because it means a much greater scope for the secret service in our land, and that is a danger to civil liberties. The Home Secretary identified Mr. Dutschke with this violent fringe. I challenge that identification. I have made as full a study as is possible of Mr. Dutschke's record, of
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his utterances, of the evidence of those who have observed him, and I find no basis whatsoever for suggesting that Mr. Dutschke has been an advocate of change by violence.
Let us look at his record. He was brought up in the Communist State of East Germany. He had sufficient character, even in those surroundings, to become a Christian Socialist. He had sufficient courage to refuse military service under East Germany's conscription laws. I was interested in the interview with him which appeared in The Times Saturday Review on January 16—an interview which was taped before the Appeal Tribunal met. Dutschke used these words:
"I did not want to endorse fighting between brother and brother, sister and sister. It was a moralistic point of view."
He made it clear that he would have equally refused military service if he had been in West Germany, but he was also critical, not merely from a Christian pacifist point of view but from a socialist point of view, of the Communist régime in the East.
"I didn't regard the East German system as socialist, because for me real socialism is possible only with the direct democracy of the masses. The German Democratic Republic still looks somewhat like a Prussian State without private ownership."
Because of his opposition to the Communist régime in East Germany, Dutschke crossed to West Berlin just before the erection of the wall in 1961. He became a student at the university, and he obtained great influence among the students by his magnetic personality. He led in "sit-ins" against the paternalistic control of the university. He took part in demonstrations against the war in Vietnam. He protested against extending conscription from Western Germany to Berlin. But all the evidence of those who were associated with him at that time indicates that he was a moderating influence against violence and irresponsibility.
I expect that many of your Lordships have read the profile of Rudi Dutschke which appeared in The Times on January 9, above the name Richard Davy. He wrote:
"…he was concerned"—
this was in his Berlin days—
"to keep agreements, minimize violence and restrain the more militant of his colleagues."

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Richard Davy added of his later views:
"Unlike many bored and frustrated middleclass students who gravitate to 'revolution' for the excitement of the game, he does not glamorize violence or advocate its use as a means of gaining power. Nor is he motivated by a desire for power. As far as one can tell his beliefs and activities spring from a genuine moral revulsion against the materialism and human suffering which he sees as the hallmarks of our society… He does not believe that a minority should impose its rule on a majority, even with the best of intentions."
I very seriously draw the attention of the Home Secretary to that statement. I think it disproves entirely his decision that Rudi Dutschke should be asked to leave this country on the ground that he stands for the transformation of society by force.
In Berlin there was an attempt to assassinate him and he was very severely wounded in the brain. It was characteristic of him that he sent letters of forgiveness to the man who sought to assassinate him; and not only letters of forgiveness, but letters of some understanding of the mistaken motive under which the man had acted. Dutschke was allowed to come to this country for medical treatment. The effect of the wound in his brain was serious. He had to relearn. He says that he can think logically, but in any large presence and under strain he cannot co-ordinate his thoughts with his speech. Those of us who heard and watched him on television on Monday night must have felt that. I thought it a tragedy that a man in his condition should have been asked to appear as he did.
Because of his medical difficulties he has turned to study, analysis, research. In any case, he would have been forced to do that because of the effect on his mind of the attempted assassination, but that work is natural to him. He is much more a seeker than a preacher, wrote Richard Davy, and I quote:
"The road to Dutschke's utopia … does not lead through the traditional plots and organisations of the old left. It goes mainly by way of discussion, analysis and enlightenment' … in discussing means he is usually more moderate and rational than those around him, more interested in analysis than action, and more concerned with persuasion than coercion."
Of course Dutschke is interested in all the problems of the transformation of society—the history and strategy of
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changes. In Berlin he was making a study of the early Communist movement. At Cambridge he was preparing a thesis on George Lukacs, a subject in which I am personally interested, because way back in 1909 I went to Budapest and George Lukacs was my guide. He was then a young socialist idealist, but he became one of the most ruthless dictators that there has been in any Communist State. I shall be profoundly interested in Rudi Dutschke's explanation of what happened. I am glad that he will now have an opportunity to continue in Denmark the work he was doing at Cambridge. But I regret that he cannot continue it here, because his past record indicates that he may still contribute greatly to the guidance of the new generation.
I suppose that most of us in this House are nearing middle-age; perhaps some of us are a little past it. But if we have any knowledge of the world to-day, we must see that, if human life is to escape the danger of destruction by war, the most important issue of all will be how the new generation transforms society into a world in which poverty and war are ended. My own studies have led me to believe that Dutschke has already contributed much, and I hope he will have an opportunity to do much more.
I believe that the Home Secretary has been unjust to Rudi Dutschke. I believe that he has done harm to the reputation of this country for tolerant democracy. I believe that his action will have the opposite effect to what he intended; he will have encouraged the student population to lose faith in government to a still greater extent. But, perhaps more than anything, the Home Secretary has prejudiced the influence of a man who, with probably more support than any other in the younger generation to-day, was seeking the way to a transformation to a new society without violence and in ways which, by their means, would contribute to an end embodying human freedoms and human happiness. I believe that a great wrong has been done to this mart. He does not claim to have found the way to the new society, but more than anyone whom I know in the younger generation he has been seeking it by courses which would not have involved hatred or violence, and would have brought nearer the end which he was seeking.
7.11 p.m.
BARONESS STOCKS: My Lords, I shall be very brief, but I am tempted to relate this controversy to the one line which I can remember of T. S. Eliot's Murder in the Cathedral. It runs:
"This at last is the final treason,
To do the right thing for the wrong reason."
Had the Home Secretary pointed out that millions of people in Europe, Asia and Africa would like, given the opportunity, to live in England and enjoy its freedom and its order, its National Health and its educational system, but that hospitality has its limits and, having granted two years' hospitality for compassionate reasons to Herr Dutschke, there is no reason why he should not return to his own country, it might have been a harsh decision but it would at any rate have been a rational decision; and to many of us it might have seemed a good decision.
But to suggest that Herr Dutschke is a security risk is not only irrational but, to my mind, positively lunatic because, in the first place, he has every motive for avoiding political indiscretion in Cambridge after what has happened. And even if he were tempted to political indiscretion, there is no doubt whatever that his very intelligent American wife, who has even more reason for remaining in Cambridge, could be trusted to see that he kept quiet. That again does not in any way suggest that he is a security risk.
No, the only real security risk in this country, I think—at any rate, the only challenge to law and order—is from the Home Secretary himself, who, by stirring up this hornet's nest, has presented a ready-made and understandable grievance to the excitable and, as I think, insufficiently occupied student population of this country. I would suggest that, having stirred up that hornet's nest, the best thing the Home Secretary can now do is to let the controversy die down by allowing the whole Dutschke family to remain in Cambridge. After all, one more perpetual student is neither here nor there, especially as his activities are covered by the magic word "research". Really, we have sufficient controversial issues on the boil at the present time to make it unnecessary to add to them this one—a controversial issue with which many of us are now becoming inexpressibly bored.
7.14 p.m.
BARONESS LEE OF ASHERIDGE: My Lords, I have not met Mr. Rudi Dutschke. I know about him only what I have read in the papers. Apparently we do not need to be concerned about his immediate financial position. That, I understand, is being looked after. Nor do we need to be concerned about his powers to earn a living provided his health makes that possible. His real distress, as I understand it, is that he is far from completely recovered. But what have we done to this young student? He had a certain fame—notoriety, if you like—when he came into this country. We have now made him one of the most highly publicised people in the world. Wherever he goes he will be invited to talk, discuss, write, lecture, write books. So far as I can see, the limit on his activities is simply going to be the state of his health.
Alas! we have to accept that he is not going to be allowed to remain in this country, although I was delighted to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Stocks, who never gives in, say, For goodness sake! let him stay here". I thoroughly endorse those sentiments. But after the debate in another place yesterday we must assume that this young man will have to find asylum elsewhere. He will find it: so what has the Home Secretary done? Have we cause to weep this evening for this young German? I wish him well; I hope he makes a good physical recovery. But we have no cause to worry unduly about his future. He has friends; he has ideas. He belongs to the most precious of all of the younger generation—and they are an international generation. He is one of those who cares. He is worried about poverty in the world; he is worried about questions of war and peace. There would be no hope for us, no future at all, if we did not have young ones who cared.
So I say I do not think we have any cause this evening to weep for this young German student; but we have great cause to weep for ourselves. I feel deeply humiliated by this decision—deeply humiliated. Some of us would like to be proud of the fact that our home country has been a centre of tolerance, but how do we think not just the students of our country but youngsters all over the world—college and university students; young

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apprentices; indeed people of all ages—view us? What sort of figure are we cutting in the world by this preposterous behaviour on the part of the Home Secretary? It is no answer to say that the former Home Secretary, when asked in another place yesterday whether he would have admitted him as a student, said, "No". Apparently that caused great hilarity in certain quarters. I do not see anything at all in this point. I congratulate my colleague the former Home Secretary that he had the humanity to allow this young fellow to come into our country for medical treatment. If it had not been for that medical treatment he would probably not have been here: but having come here for medical treatment, why should he not be allowed to continue his studies in this country? There is emotional logic as well as formal logic. Of course, you may say that there are others who have equal or better rights to be students, but that is a very petty argument.
What concerns me most of all is that many of us in your Lordships' House, as well as Members in another place, have always known that there is a question mark over the possibility of peaceful Parliamentary constitutional progress. We fought for that, and we often had to fight very hard in the Labour and Trade Union Movement. In the days when the Soviet Union was "the Holy Land" for many workers and intellectuals in this country; in the days when many, for the highest possible motives, were seeking to capture the Labour and Trade Union Movement of this country for the Communist cause; in the days when we had to fight this battle, we were told, "Parliament is a farce. You can make no real progress through Parliament; turn away from it". In those days we did not have one student: we had hordes of people, most of them our own nationals, preaching bloody revolution. We did not get excited about that. We allowed the argument to go on.
It is a long time since we cut off a king's head. It is a long time since we sent agricultural workers to Botany Bay for trying to form a union and it is even quite a long time since my grandfather and others of his generation were victimised for trying to form trade unions. That, we thought, was behind us. We were going forward. We were going to be the most civilised country in
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the world. We were going to demonstrate, as my husband often said, "It is better to count heads than break heads". We were going to give an example of tolerance and socialism. But what in fact has happened? We seem to have lost our nerve; we seem to have lost our common sense and all sense of proportion. I can see the caricatures: poor John Bull, grown old and senile, gnashing his toothless gums. What kind of image do you think Britannia now shows to the world, to people who care about great issues, following the headlines of the world's Press? The figure of Britannia, once so strong, so gracious, a motherfigure—what now? An old woman, a frightened old creature, hysterically seeing mice under every bed.
I am not going to discuss this question as a matter of security; for I think that angle of the affair is nonsense. But if Mr. Dutschke was doing anything that he should not have done I do not understand why he should not have been told. I should have thought it ordinary common sense. Obviously he was concerned about ideas, about discussing and meeting people; and I do not understand why he was not warned. On the other hand, the notion that because this young fellow was trying out ideas he could be considered a threat to our security and denied the right to study in our university, I see as something we should weep for.
I do not want to damn myself too much, but I looked only the other day at my first efforts at being an editor. I was joint editor of a student paper in my student days at Edinburgh University. I give your Lordships one guess at the title of the paper: it was the Rebel Student—and if you only knew some of the things that we said! This is the time in life, surely, when you do not reach your destinations all at once; when you have to try out new ideas. Indeed, there is no future for a country unless there is ample opportunity for the stimulus of ideas and controversies.
Therefore, I repeat, if I weep to-night I do not weep so much for this young man. Unless his health pulls him down he will make a good future for himself. He has character and intelligence and will be given opportunities in other, less frightened, countries to carry on his activities. But I do weep that a country with our history, our one-time tolerance, the

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tolerance that our forbears fought for, should be so paltry, so undignified and so totally lacking in decent compassion.
7.24 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I had no intention of intervening in this debate and do so reluctantly, particularly because I greatly respect the views of the noble Baroness, Lady Stocks, and I appreciate the sincerity with which the matter has been raised by other speakers. I intervene only because it seems to me that what has been said about the Home Secretary is really a caricature of his character. I have known the Home Secretary for a very long time; and he is not an illiberal man anxious to engage in character assassination.
I do not have the advantage of ever having met Mr. Dutschke but I think it is not unimportant to remember that this case has been considered by a Tribunal, a Tribunal which admittedly works under certain disadvantages. I dare say that all of us, wherever we sit in the House, can think of objections to its procedure; but many people, many critics of the Home Secretary's action, including The Times, consider that it is better to have a Tribunal than to have none. This Tribunal that considered the case was set up under legislation passed not by the Home Secretary or his Party but by the previous Administration. I know, as I say, nothing about Mr. Dutschke except what has appeared in the Press. The noble Lord Lord Brockway, gave us his impression of the character and aims of this gentleman. I am not in a position in any way either to add to it or question it.
I apologise for my limited knowledge of this case, but I have just returned from abroad and this is the first day I have been in this House since it resumed; but I notice in the Tribunal's Report one paragraph, under the heading "Evidence of the Appellant"; that is, Mr. Dutschke himself. This refers to something that happened, admittedly, before he came to this country. Nevertheless, I think it may be important that we should bear it in mind. It comes in paragraph 34, and perhaps I may read a few sentences:
"In February 1968 the Appellant was invited to Amsterdam to address a student organisation there. In this speech he stressed the need in their fight against capitalism and imperialism of a permanent liaison and negotiation (combination)
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of individual action of anarchy and subversive character and concrete mass action. There were two aspects of the campaign—" destruction of NATO"—the first was national and then an international campaign in central and western Europe. Such mass actions must be inspired through subversive actions. NATO bases could be burnt: aircraft bases could be burnt: ships could be burnt.'"
That is paragraph 34 dealing with the evidence of the Appellant.
When we come to the conclusions of the Tribunal, in paragraph 54, we read:
"As regards political activity, the Appellant when seeking admission to the United Kingdom gave an assurance that he would not engage in political activities and was admitted on this condition. It is clear from the Appellant's evidence that he has had meetings and discussions with a wide variety of people involved in political activities, some of whom he had not met before; some were British nationals, others were from overseas who came to consult him, in his view quite naturally, when they visited Britain. In our view these meetings and associations have far exceeded normal social activities and, whatever his intentions may have been, he did not abide by the assurance given by him and on his behalf not to engage in political activities. The evidence that was given before us in camera confirms this."
Having regard to those two passages which I have read—and I have seen this document only since this short debate started—I would invite the House to consider this. First of all—
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, before the noble Lord continues, could he tell us again—some of us did not hear him—the date on which those extravagant statements were made? Was that while he was here?
LORD CONESFORD: No, my Lords. I said that it was before he came to this country. I gave the date and I cited the paragraph. I appreciate the point the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, is putting to me. That is why I made it clear that it was not something he did in this country. But, to take those passages that I have cited together, this was the previous record as given in this Report in the Appellant's own evidence before the Tribunal, though it was evidence as to what had happened before he came to this country. The second passage was the Tribunal's conclusion that he had not abided by his undertakings.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, would the noble Lord permit me to ask

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him one question on this point? He quoted that Mr. Dutschke had been meeting people and having political discussions with them. Am I right?
LORD CONESFORD: I read the passage.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: Yes, and I understood that passage to mean that he had had discussions with other people on political matters. Would the noble Lord regard this as indulging in political activities?
LORD CONESFORD: I am not giving my views. What my views would have been had I heard the appellant, and had I heard the secret evidence, I do not know. I am quoting what was said by the Tribunal, the body set up by Parliament to consider cases of this kind where the Home Secretary has acted.
It seems to me that in endeavouring to be generous to Herr Dutschke, some noble Lords and others have shown no consideration whatever for the honour or efforts of the Tribunal. These men seem to me to be honourable men. They heard the evidence. They heard the evidence of the appellant on what his activities had been before he came to this country, and they concluded, both from the evidence given openly and from the evidence given in camera, that he had not abided by his undertaking and that he was potentially dangerous (I am now quoting from memory), though the danger to this country from his actions so far had been unimportant.
What I say is that, with all that evidence, it seems to me to be quite wrong to treat the case as though the Home Secretary had taken a wholly unreasonable or illiberal decision. He has taken a decision which I think a great many people, simply on their own knowledge, would have considered the right decision, a decision which has been upheld by the Tribunal set up to consider cases where the Home Secretary takes action of this nature.
My Lords, those being the facts, and with my knowledge and experience over many years of the Home Secretary's own character, I find it outrageous that he should be attacked as though he were a wholly illiberal man or a man who might consider some character assassination. He seems to me to be a man who has taken
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into consideration all the matters which it was his duty to consider; and I, for one, believe that he was right.
7.35 p.m.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, began his speech this evening by correcting the terms of his Question on the Order Paper, as he now accepts that Mr. Dutschke has not been deported. But this misconception is one that is widespread. Indeed, the noble Lord indicated that this was the way in which he saw the case until he read the account of the debate in another place yesterday. So let me say again, in winding up this debate, that Mr. Dutschke is not being deported; nor did the Appeals Tribunal make any such recommendation.
What has happened is that the Home Secretary has decided, on the information available to him, that Mr. Dutschke's continued presence in the United Kingdom as a student would be undesirable. He has therefore declined to allow Mr. Dutschke to remain for the purpose of study at the university. This is the decision which has been upheld by the Tribunal. It is important to appreciate that these are not just bureaucratic distinctions. It is sometimes said that it does not make very much difference whether he is deported or whether his continued presence is being brought to an end; but these are considerations that go to the heart of the present controversy, and I do want to explain them.
I do not intend to go over the background in detail this evening, since this was done very fully in another place yesterday by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. But it is crucial to recall that the starting point in this case is that Mr. Dutschke was admitted in December, 1968, for a period of one month for the purpose of medical consultations. An undertaking was offered on his behalf, and was accepted by the previous Home Secretary, that he should not engage in any political activities while he was here. It was made clear by the then Home Secretary that the reasons for agreeing to his admission were solely concerned with his state of health, and in the debate in another place yesterday to which the noble Baroness, Lady Lee of Asheridge, has already referred, Mr. Callaghan frankly admitted, in answer to

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a question, that had the application been made for Mr. Dutschke to come to this country for study he would probably have refused it.
Renewals were granted in January, 1969; July, 1969, and January, 1970, all on the basis of the original conditions. In July, 1970, a further application was made on behalf of Mr. Dutschke for him to remain for the purpose of studying at a university, accepting that this was a change in the original conditions under which he had been admitted to this country. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary decided that he could not accept this application, since in his judgment the continued presence of Mr. Dutschke in this country as a student was not desirable.
Mr. Dutschke subsequently exercised his right of appeal, and in accordance with the provisions of the Immigration Appeals Act 1969 and the Aliens (Appeals) Order 1970 the Home Secretary directed that the appeal should be referred to and heard by the special panel which is empowered to hear appeals where the Home Secretary's decision is taken in the interest of national security or otherwise on grounds of a political nature. Let me say at this point that these words "grounds of a political nature" are specifically contained in Article 8(i) of the Aliens (Appeals) Order and were referred to at some length by my right honourable friend's predecessor, Mr. Jenkins, when he explained the previous Administration's intentions in setting up the appeals system.
As noble Lords will know, the appeal was heard by the Tribunal shortly before Christmas. The Tribunal was an independent one, set up under the legislation to which I have referred, with four out of the five members chosen by the previous Administration. Two of them were Members of your Lordships' House, and anyone who looks at the list of names would have full confidence in the independence and impartiality of the members of the Tribunal. The hearings occupied five days, and it is worth noting that on only one of those five days did the Tribunal meet in camera.
After considering all the evidence that was available to them, the Tribunal reached the conclusion that there was
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"no essential reason for Mr. Dutschke to remain in the United Kingdom on medical grounds."—
that is contained in paragraph 52 of the Report—and that certain meetings and associations had, in the words of the Tribunal:
"far exceeded normal social activities and, whatever his intentions may have been, he did not abide by the assurance given by him and on his behalf not to engage in political activities."
That was the finding of the Tribunal after hearing the evidence, as the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, has pointed out.
Referring to the evidence presented to them by the Security Service, the Tribunal said that they did not consider that up to the present time Mr. Dutschke's presence in this country had constituted any "appreciable danger to national security." They went on to say that if he were to remain for a further period as a full-time postgraduate student—I use their own words here:
"there must without doubt be risk in his continued presence on a longer-term stay of this kind."
That is contained in paragraph 55. The Tribunal accordingly concluded that
"in refusing to extend the stay of the appellant to enable him to take a course of study the Secretary of State acted in accordance with the law and the immigration rules."
They went on to say that they did not consider that in the exercise of his discretion in this matter the discretion should have been exercised differently.
My Lords, there has been a great deal of criticism of the Tribunal and its procedure, and I cannot help wondering whether some of those who are so critical of the Home Secretary's decision would have taken the line they do had the Tribunal decided the other way. Indeed, as recently as November 25, when the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill was being debated in another place and when the appeal was pending before the Tribunal—the hearing was to be in December—my right honourable friend was urged in the strongest terms to say that he would abide by the finding of the Tribunal; and that is what he has done.
I recognise, however, and so does the Home Secretary, as he made clear in his speech last night, that there are real issues of substance to be discussed here. But I must remind your Lordships that the procedure which was followed is that

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laid down in the Immigration Appeals Act 1969, and the Aliens (Appeals) Order based on it. This procedure specifically provides for closed hearings of anything which the Home Secretary certifies should not be disclosed in the interests of national security. The object is to avoid endangering the sources of information, since it is self-evident that no security service could function efficiently if it did not have protection of this kind.
The Committee on Immigration Appeals, which was chaired by Sir Roy Wilson, Q.C., considered this matter in 1967. In outlining the comprehensive scheme of immigration appeals on which the present legislation is based the Committee commented in paragraph 143 as follows:
"Cases arise from time to time in which the Home Secretary feels justified in excluding a person from this country, or requiring him to leave, on grounds that are essentially of a political nature. We doubt whether the system of appeals which we are proposing would provide apt machinery for dealing with such cases."
Accordingly, the Commit tee recommended that such cases—that is, cases where political considerations are involved—should be excluded from the scope of the appeals system and left entirely to the Home Secretary's decision; subject, as they pointed out, to his responsibility to Parliament. The previous Administration decided not to accept this advice; Parliament agreed; and hence the procedure that we have been discussing.
My Lords, it has been said that an appeal of this kind, held partly in private, with certain evidence not available to the appellant or his counsel, is a denial of justice and amounts to a man being put on trial for his political views. I cannot accept that. Whatever the outward appearance of the Tribunal, it is important to recognise that there was no judicial issue here at all. Mr. Dutschke was not charged with any offence; nor did he risk any penalty. He was asking to be released from conditions which he accepted when he was admitted to this country; and the task of the Tribunal was to decide whether, on the evidence before them, the Secretary of State had acted properly in accordance with the law and the Immigration Rules. Their finding was that he had.
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Having established that, however, I should like to repeat what the Home Secretary said in yesterday's debate in another place. His words were:
"As for the proceedings of the Tribunal, no one is happy about this. I am sure that no one who has listened to and studied this Tribunal will think that it is the right answer to this problem. People are concerned especially about the fact that evidence put forward on behalf of the Government was not made available to Mr. Dutschke. This is a great difficulty which has been recognised by succeeding Governments."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 19/1/71, col. 761.]
My Lords, there will be a further opportunity for both Houses to consider appeal procedures when we come to debate the comprehensive Immigration Bill which the Government will be introducing this Session.
Another main line of criticism has usually been put in the form of a question. It lies underneath what was contained in the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Lee of Asheridge and the noble Lord, Lord Brockway. The question is asked: is not the British political system and political tradition strong enough and healthy enough to absorb Mr. Dutschke? There are two answers to this. The first is: if Mr. Dutschke, then why not others who hold similar views about recourse to violence as a means of obtaining their political ends? There has to be consistency if we are not to be unfair towards those who have no one to make representations for them or protests on their behalf.
My Lords, it is always a temptation—it always will be in dealing with immigration cases—to go for the easy answer. If a Member of Parliament, or the Press, or some other responsible body, is campaigning for a favourable answer, the easiest thing in the world is to give way and avoid having a row. But what self-respecting Government, what self-respecting Home Secretary, has ever been able to operate on that sort of basis? So there have to be rules and conventions which are consistently applied. The question that the Home Secretary had to ask himself about Mr. Dutschke was exactly the same as that asked about any other student who applies to come to this country for study from overseas: is there any evidence to suggest that the presence of the applicant in this country would

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be undesirable? In Mr. Dutschke's case there was such evidence.
Last night the Home Secretary gave an assurance which I want to repeat to-day. He said:
"As regards the activities of the security services there has been no change in policy or practice between successive Governments."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 19/1/71, cols. 799–800.]
No extension of practice is envisaged in the future. It would be quite wrong to infer that the security services are, or will be, more interested as a result of the Dutschke case in students than in any other sections of the community. The reason for the existence of the security services is to protect national security, and their only interest is in those who constitute a risk to the security of the country.
My Lords, when we talk about the security of the State we tend to think too readily of espionage and counterespionage; the activities of spies and of agents of hostile Powers—referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway—and those whose business it is to detect them. But the Government have now, and always have had, a wider responsibility than this. They have, and always have had, the responsibility of protecting the fabric of the State from subversion. We must recognise that there are many people whose avowed intention is to attain their ends by violent means. The move towards violence is international. There are undoubted links between those who advocate it. And we have seen only too many examples of hijackings and kidnappings and bombings in different parts of the world in the last twelve months to be complacent about it. It would be nothing short of irresponsible folly on the part of the Government if we were to suppose that this country is in some way immune from the extremes of violence that we have seen elsewhere. So let me make it absolutely clear that the Government intend to do all in their power to forestall the activities of those who believe in violence as a political weapon.
That, my Lords, is the background against which Mr. Dutschke's application,
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and others from people from overseas, must be viewed. I appreciate that reconciling these general considerations—and I have been speaking in my later remarks of general considerations—to the circumstances of an individual case will always be a very difficult matter. But noble Lords who approach this case with an open mind would not want to reach an opinion without taking these considerations into account.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, before the noble Lord resumes his seat may I put a question? Has he not ignored entirely the very considerable evidence which I put to the House, that the influence of Mr. Dutschke in the student movement has been against the use of violence?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, that is not the Home Secretary's conclusion. That was not the conclusion of the Appeals tribunal and it is on that that we rest.
LORD BROCKWAY: Again, my Lords, may I ask the noble Lord a question? It may be the Home Secretary's conclusion, but where in the Tribunal Report is it stated that Mr. Dutschke had been guilty of violence in this way?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, mentioned one instance. I have the actual words that were used in the speech to which he has referred. There are other instances. The conclusion of the Tribunal was that the continued presence of Mr. Dutschke in this country would undoubtedly be a risk to the security of the State.

AMOCO (U.K.) BILL [H.L.]
NATIONAL TRUST BILL [H.L.]
NOTTINGHAM CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to with Amendments: the said Amendments considered and agreed to.

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