Sitting of 9 December 1971

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  CLYDE PORT AUTHORITY ORDER CONFIRMATION
  Mr. Gordon Campbell presented a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under Section 7 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936, relating to the Clyde Port Authority.
  And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be considered upon Wednesday next and to be printed. [Bill 47.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EMPLOYMENT

    Industrial Training Boards (Costs)
    Mr. Moyleasked the Secretary of State for Employment whether he will set up a working party of accountants, economists and educationists with a view to recommending a standard system for validating training costs for all industrial training boards.
    The Minister of State, Department of Employment (Mr. Paul Bryan): My right hon. Friend would not wish to consider action of this kind before he has completed his review of industrial training.
    Mr. Moyle: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that in the absence of central guidance there is a temptation to chief accountants to load all sorts of odd costs on to the industrial training side of their firms? Would not central guidance from
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    the Department tend to make possible a more sensible approach to the problem?
    Mr. Bryan: Boards were given advice in 1966 about a common approach to determining training costs. It was a very expert working party that advised them then. Standard systems have their limitations in this context because the requirements of each board vary very much.
    Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Does my hon. Friend accept that there would be one justification for an increase in Government training costs, and that is if he would consider subventing the training of apprentices for their first year so that the young people in the pipeline who cannot get into apprenticeships could be given a first year training with Government financial support?
    Mr. Bryan: A great deal is being done by the Government to increase apprentice training. For instance, those whose training is liable to be checked owing to the unemployment situation are being helped by the training boards, in particular the Engineering Industry Training Board, and the Government are paying half the cost.

    Derby
    Mr. Whiteheadasked the Secretary of State for Employment what plans he has for dealing with the unemployment situation in Derby.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Dudley Smith): The Government have already taken steps to help Derby: particularly by the assistance given to Rolls-Royce. Derby will also benefit from the various measures we have taken to stimulate investment, output and employment in the country as a whole. The officers of my Department will continue to give every assistance to unemployed people seeking new jobs.
    Mr. Whitehead: Is the Minister aware that in the past 18 months unemployment in Derby has risen by 75 per cent. that it is most deep-seated among skilled designers, technicians and craftsmen and that there is unlikely to be any improvement in the general situation of deep-seated unemployment in constituencies

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    represented by many of my hon. Friends unless the employment multiplier is got going by special measures in areas of high technology like Derby?
    Mr. Smith: No one would wish to minimise the seriousness of the situation. We do not like to see unemployment anywhere, but in Derby the unemployment figure is 3·6 per cent. which is lower than the national average, and in the circumstances we can look for further improvements.
    Mr. Rost: Is it not disgraceful that the hon. Member for Derby, North (Mr. Whitehead) should be criticising the Government when they have saved many thousands of jobs in Derby by supporting the Rolls-Royce programme? Have not nearly all those who were displaced now found alternative employment?
    Mr. Smith: Yes, Sir. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Of the 1,787 workers affected by redundancies at Derby earlier this year, only 216 remained to be placed last month.

    Industrial Rehabilitation Units
    Mr. John Hallasked the Secretary of State for Employment if he is satisfied with the scope and operation of industrial rehabilitation units; if they are working to capacity; and if he will make a statement.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. David Howell): Although my right hon. Friend is generally satisfied with the scope and operation of the units, he is studying ways in which the industrial rehabilitation service might be improved. On 29th November 92 per cent of the 2,377 places at units were occupied. We plan to increase the number of places during the next few years to about 2,750.
    Mr. Hall: In view of the very valuable work done by the units, although I am gratified to hear of the proposed expansion, does my hon. Friend believe that it is sufficient to meet the need? Is it proposed that another unit should be established rather nearer my constituency of Wycombe than Garston Manor?
    Mr. Howell: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's recognition of the valuable work of the units. An expansion programme was begun back in 1969. New
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    units have been built at Plymouth, Hanley and Dundee since the beginning of last year and new units will be built at Birmingham, Portsmouth, Preston and East London by the end of 1974–75. I do not know how that works out in relation to my hon. Friend's constituency, but that is the pattern.

    Employment Services
    Mr. John Pageasked the Secretary of State for Employment when the official report on the future of the employment services will be published.
    Mr. Bryan: My right hon. Friend expects to publish the report on 14th December.
    Mr. Page: Would my hon. Friend say what is the status of the report? Is it a consultative document? Will he also be prepared, if the report suggests it, to take radical steps to change these services which still have the same structure that they had 50 or 60 years ago?
    Mr. Bryan: The report is not entitled a consultative document, but certainly the proposals in it will be open to discussion. As to the nature of the proposals, I think all hon. Members are agreed that the time for radical change has come and I do not think that the hon. Gentleman will find the document unworthy of the occasion.
    Mrs. Castle: May I first express our regret that the Secretary of State is suffering from strain as a result of his accident and also express the hope that he will soon he fully recovered?
    May I also, through the hon. Gentleman, congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on having at last taken action on the proposals which I left on his desk 17 months ago? Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the delay in producing these proposals, due to the Government's obsession with their vendetta against the trade unions, is intolerable and that if he had acted quickly the modernisation of the employment services could have been in operation now as a contribution to the unemployment problem?
    Mr. Bryan: First, may I thank the right hon. Lady for her kind message to my right hon. Friend which I shall, of course, convey to him. With regard to the second part of her congratulations, I

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    think the right hon. Lady will find when she sees the document that the work done by herself and her team when she was in office does not go unacknowledged. Certainly we have taken full account of the consultative document of 1970 and all the consultations that went with it. As to the timing of the document, this was quite deliberate. As has been said several times in the House, when we got into power we decided to have a total review of all manpower problems. As soon as one does that, with training and the rest, it becomes a much bigger task. We believe that we have done the right thing.

    Unemployment
    Mr. Ashtonasked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will list the methods used by his Department to assess the level of unemployment.
    Mr. Bryan: Monthly counts are made of persons who register as unemployed at all employment exchanges and youth employment service careers offices. These figures are analysed under various categories and after excluding school leavers and temporarily stopped are adjusted for seasonal factors. The seasonally adjusted figure for wholly unemployed is the best guide to the underlying trend of unemployment.
    Mr. Ashton: Is the Minister satisfied with these methods? Is it not a fact that the unemployment figures come as a tremendous shock to him every month? Cannot he assess them better in the future? Is he ready for next week's figures or will these again come as a tremendous surprise?
    Mr. Bryan: I do not see the point of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. All Governments have, as a matter of policy, not put out forecasts. One reason is that they are not competent to do so under present techniques; and secondly, unreliable information is worrying to the people concerned.
    Mr. Marten: Looking at the other side of the coin—that is, jobs vacant—is it not likely that my hon. Friend's Department underestimates the number of jobs vacant because firms do not place with the Department the actual number of vacancies they might have?
    Mr. Bryan: Exactly what proportion of the vacancies are reported to our
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    Department is the gap in our information. I think everyone would agree that in times of high unemployment fewer vacancies are reported for the simple reason that employers know that they can get their recruits without using the employment services.
    Mr. Leadbitter: Will the Minister indicate whether by the definition of "wholly unemployed" he means the numbers out of work for more than eight weeks? If he accepts this as one of the tests in determining levels of unemployment, would he consider having another analysis on the basis of those who have been out of work for more than half a year, because this kind of unemployment is creating quite a problem in the development areas?
    Mr. Bryan: Figures of that sort are given in the Gazette each month. I shall check to see whether the exact figures the hon. Gentleman is talking about are there and I will think about them.
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Secretary of State for Employment what are the latest unemployment figures nationally and by regions.
    Mr. David Howell: At 8th November 926,095 people were registered as unemployed in Great Britain, including 74,855 who were temporarily stopped. I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the corresponding figures for regions.
    Mr. Skinner: Is the Minister aware that those figures represent only about three-quarters of the story? There are literally thousands of unregistered workers who should be added to the figures he has given. Will the hon. Gentleman give a guarantee, similar to the one given by his hon. Friend in winding up the debate on Tuesday night, that the official unemployment figures for June, 1970, will not be doubled during the lifetime of this Parliament?
    Mr. Howell: In reply to the first point, no one for a moment denies that the figures are very high and very serious. Enormous programmes and enormous efforts have been brought forward to reduce them. In reply to the second point, it is not the policy of the present Government to make predictions any more than it was the policy of the Labour Government to do so.
    Mr. Edward Taylor: Does my hon. Friend agree that the problem is particularly serious in Scotland? When does he expect the reflationary and capital expenditure measures announced by the Government to have an impact on the Scottish unemployment figures?
    Mr. Howell: I am aware of the particular seriousness of the situation in Scotland. A major reflationary programme is already in the pipeline and Scotland will share substantially in the benefits from the enormous tax concessions and extra expenditure amounting to £660 million.
    Mr. Harold Walker: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, notwithstanding the extreme seriousness of the problem in development areas such as Scotland, in intermediate areas such as South Yorkshire the employment rate is far in excess of the average in the development areas? In the South Yorkshire area the average is between 6 and 7 per cent. Is it not clear that the Government's policy of cutting public expenditure and withdrawing investment grants has been disastrous and that 1 million families are likely to be confronted with a very bleak Christmas? Will not the Government accelerate what they are seeking to do, which is too little and too late, and try to relieve some of the misery, poverty and hardship they are causing?
    Mr. Howell: The hon. Gentleman's feelings are thoroughly understandable but his diagnosis is wrong. If one sets out, as the Labour Government did, on a major shake-out in the mid-1960s, and if that is followed by enormous wage inflation, the end effect is considerable unemployment. That is what has happened and that is what we have to cure.
    Dame Irene Ward: Will my hon. Friend insert in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the projects which have been undertaken as a result of the increased capital expenditure so rightly announced by the Government? My hon. Friend is continually referring, quite rightly, to what is being done but it would be much more helpful to everyone to know in detail what the projects are and where they are situated.
    Mr. Howell: If my hon. Friend likes to put down a Question, I will seek to answer her request.
    Dame Irene Ward: I have asked dozens of times. I am tired of asking.
    Mrs. Renée Short: May I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the serious position in the West Midlands where practically every week—for example, in Wolverhampton—firms are closing down, thus creating redundancies? Is he further aware that men in their forties come to see me in my "surgery" because they have become redundant and have no chance of getting work in the West Midlands? Is not this a disgraceful comment on the Conservative Government's inability properly to run the economy? What is the hon. Gentleman doing to put the situation right?
    Mr. Howell: I acknowledge the seriousness of the situation referred to by the hon. Lady, but I repeat that major programmes have been brought forward, major investment has been accelerated and, as newspaper reports today show, there are distinct signs of improvement in the fixed investment picture and this will produce jobs in the area.
    Following is the information:

    NUMBERS REGISTERED AS UNEMPLOYED AT 8TH NOVEMBER, 1971

    Total registered unemployed

    Temporarily stopped included in total

    South East

    174,546

    3,769

    East Anglia

    21,122

    30

    South West

    53,389

    960

    West Midlands

    126,542

    46,057

    East Midlands

    47,320

    4,144

    Yorkshire and Humberside

    90,359

    4,761

    North West

    136,443

    7,407

    North

    84,785

    1,905

    Wales

    50,206

    472

    Scotland

    141,383

    5,350

    Great Britain

    926,095

    74,855

    Northern Region
    Mr. Bagierasked the Secretary of State for Employment what is the total number of redundancies notified to his Department in the Northern Region for the 12-month period ended October, 1971; what is the average per month; and what was the average number of vacancies per month notified.
    Mr. Bryan: During the 12-month period ended 31st October, 1971, redundancies involving 24,220 workpeople in the Northern Region were notified to my

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    Department, the average number per month being 2,020. Over the same period the average monthly number of notified vacancies in the Northern Region was 10,138.
    Mr. Bagier: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that these are fairly disastrous figures, particularly if he accepts that in the Northern Region we are no longer suffering from a dramatic rundown of mining jobs? These are notified redundancies from modern industries, many of which have come into the region in the last 10 years. Will not the hon. Gentleman accept that if we have a net result in the last 12 months, as I understand it, of 78,500 unemployed, with only 5,000 jobs available, this is a terrible situation? Will he not speak to his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry to see whether something special can be done, even if it means helping existing industry in the region to enlarge itself with the sort of facilities which are provided for incoming industry?
    Mr. Bryan: My hon. Friend may know that the Mayor of Sunderland has been in contact with my Department and with several Cabinet Ministers concerning the situation there and has had replies from all of us. I agree, however, that the situation is a worrying one. Unemployment in the Wearside area happens to have gone down slightly in the last two months but, nevertheless, the figures are very worrying. From an examination of the type and spread of industry in the area, however, I would hope that the measures we have brought forward for increasing capital expenditure—in other words, the £100 million to the nationalised industries for bringing forward their capital work and the £150 million on infrastructure—would help the hon. Gentleman's area.
    Mr. Cormack: With regard to the last part of that answer, would not my hon. Friend now consider advocating the compulsory registration of vacancies?
    Mr. Bryan: That has been considered and thought about by successive Governments but I think it would be almost impossible to enforce. I hope, however, that the improvement we expect in the employment services will in itself encourage employers to register their vacancies because
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    it will be worth while their doing so.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the redundancies are continuing at a very high level in the whole of the area? Will he not take some further action, above all, to provide new work at the site, for example, in Washington which is being vacated by a Government Department?
    Mr. Bryan: I know about these problems. I hope to be in Newcastle on Wednesday and, no doubt, will hear more about them. All I can say once again is that though we believe the measures we have taken may not cure the situation straight away, there has been evidence since our last debate on unemployment—from the Financial Times survey, today's evidence from the Quarterly Review of the Bank of England and the National Institute—that reflation is beginning to have its effect, and one hopes that this will come through as quickly as possible.

    Flammable Goods (Storage)
    Mr. Boothasked the Secretary of State for Employment whether, pending the introduction of comprehensive regulations for the storage of highly flammable liquids in factories, he will lay before the House a regulation requiring highly flammable liquids stored in factories to be contained in suitable closed vessels kept in a storeroom, which either is in a safe position or is a fire-resisting structure.
    Mr. Atkinsonasked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will now publish the report of the public inquiry into the storage of highly flammable liquids, set up in accordance with Schedule 4 to the Factories Act, 1961, which sat on 2nd and 3rd February, 22nd, 23rd and 24th March and 5th April.
    Mr. David Watkinsasked the Secretary of State for Employment when he expects to receive the report of the public inquiry which sat on certain dates in February, March and April, 1971, to hear objections to the draft Statutory Instrument entitled the Highly Inflammable Liquids Regulations, 1969.
    Mr. Peter Archerasked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will draft regulations under Section 176 of the

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    Factories Act relating to the storage and use of inflammable materials.
    Mr. David Howell: My right hon. Friend expects to receive the commissioner's report on the public inquiry later this month and he will then arrange for its publication. My right hon. Friend does not intend to lay before the House any regulations covering the storage and use of highly flammable materials in factories until he has had the opportunity of studying this report.
    Mr. Booth: Will the Minister confirm that there is no statutory protection whatever for workers in factories using inflammable liquids other than those who use cellulose fluids? Does he agree that there is a need for comprehensive regulations to protect those who work with such liquids from disfigurement and death? Can he give the House any reason whatever why he should not lay before the House a regulation at least providing protection from dangerous conditions of storage pending the introduction of the more comprehensive regulations required?
    Mr. Howell: The position is as the hon. Member states, with the exception for cellulose solutions. The reason for which he asks is simply that the inquiry is taking place, it has attracted considerable comment on a wide range of matters and there are a great many detailed considerations to take into account. It would be a bad way of proceeding to make partial regulations in advance of dealing with the subject as a whole when the inquiry is complete.
    Mr. Atkinson: This is unbelievable complacency. The commissioner—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member must ask a question.
    Mr. Atkinson: I am asking a question, Mr. Speaker. I am making the point—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question."] I will phrase the question. Would the hon. Gentleman agree that it is absolutely unbelievable complacency for the commissioner to be coming along at the end of this month with the outcome of the inquiry, held so many months ago, when we have no knowledge of how long it will take the Government to implement the commissioner's recommendations? What is the Minister prepared to do
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    about it? Will he send a signal to his colleagues in the Department of the Environment to make sure that they change their regulations on this problem with regard to spillage and so on in line with the report? Will he accept that injuries are taking place daily in factories and that this will be on his head unless he gets a move on with this legislation?
    Mr. Howell: I do not agree with the hon. Member's first point. I think he is getting the matter slightly out of focus. These are serious and important issues, as he is the first to realise, and a public inquiry must go into every detail. When the report comes to the Secretary of State, as it will in a few weeks, it must be looked at carefully. To rush into these matters without a careful inquiry and assessment might do more harm than good, and I cannot believe that the hon. Member wants that.
    Mr. Watkins: That is all very well, but can the Minister outline for us the nature of the objections raised to the original draft regulations and say by whom they were raised and why it has taken so long? Why has it been necessary to go into such time-consuming detail before the regulations can be produced?
    Mr. Howell: These matters will emerge when the report is published, after it has been to the Secretary of State. These are complicated matters and such inquiries usually take months rather than weeks, if I may use the phrase. There are very important issues which have to be dealt with.

    Careers Advisory Service
    Mr. Gryllsasked the Secretary of State for Employment what advice he has received from the National Youth Employment Council on the reorganisation of the Careers Advisory Service; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Bryan: The majority of the council has advised that the running of the Youth Employment Service should be mandatory for local education authorities and that the service should be made available to all those under 18 and all those in full-time education up to first degree level. I said in answer to an earlier Question that my right hon.

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    Friend expects to announce his plans for the future of the employment service on 14th December. This will include a statement on the Youth Employment Service.
    Mr. Grylls: Does my hon. Friend recognise the important rôle of the careers officer in advising young people at school and college? Is he aware that many will welcome his promise of a statement to remove the uncertainty over the future structure of this important service?
    Mr. Bryan: I recognise the work which my hon. Friend did in this area in the days when he was with the Inner London Education Authority. There has been a long-standing division of views on this and I am hoping that the review will succeed in solving the problem.
    Mrs. Castle: Can we take it that the hon. Gentleman will be making a statement to the House?
    Mr. Bryan: That is the form in which it will come.

    Redundancies (Glasgow)
    Mr. James Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Employment what he intends to do to assist the 350 workers who will become redundant at Ranco Motors Limited, Tannochside, Glasgow, to find alternative jobs.
    Mr. Bryan: All the resources of my Department including a "job team", special canvassing for vacancies and opportunities for training will be made available, as appropriate, to help those becoming redundant to obtain alternative employment.
    Mr. Hamilton: May I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply and may I also thank his local office, which is doing everything humanly possible? Is he aware that there has been a further closure in my constituency and that 130 jobs will fall by the wayside? Is he further aware that there is serious contraction in the North Lanarkshire steel industry? On that basis, can he tell us whether he is having consultations with the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry to bring jobs to this part of the world where they are so urgently needed?
    Mr. Bryan: I was not aware of this second firm which the hon. Gentleman mentioned, and I will certainly go into the particulars. With regard to the firm about which he asks, Ranco Motors Ltd., I understand that it manufactures small motors. I hope that the increase in the production of consumer durables, in which such motors would be used, will have a beneficial effect. It is to be hoped that the firm will also benefit from the cut in hire-purchase restrictions and purchase tax. As for demand in the steel industry in general, the extra expenditure that has been announced over the last few weeks will help the industry because steel is used for most public works undertakings.
    Mr. Rose: In view of the widespread nature of the problem of large-scale redundancies, by no means confined to Glasgow, and the growing Press speculation about the Government's programme to emasculate Redundancy Payments Act, will the hon. Gentleman either give an unequivocal undertaking today that he has no intention of interfering with the operation of that Act or come clean about it and tell the House, with an immediate statement, what proposals he has in mind?
    Mr. Bryan: I am tempted to satisfy the hon. Gentleman's question, but I am afraid that until our report comes out I cannot do so.

    Footwear Industry (Norwich)
    Dr. Stuttafordasked the Secretary of State for Employment how many people were employed in the boot and shoe industry in Norwich in 1960; and how many are currently employed in the same industry.
    Mr. Dudley Smith: The estimated numbers of employees in employment in the footwear industry in the Norwich, Acle, Loddon and Wroxham Employment Exchange areas at June, 1960, and June, 1970, the latest date for which figures are available, were 9,100 and 5,800, respectively.
    Dr. Stuttaford: Would my hon. Friend agree that these disturbing figures show a marked decrease? To safeguard the employment situation in the area, particularly in the footwear trade, will he make every possible representation to his right hon. Friends so that the industry may stand up as well as it can to the

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    three hazards facing it—the problems occasioned by the introduction of V.A.T., by the importation of shoes from underdeveloped countries and by the present difficulties of origin marking?
    Mr. Smith: My hon. Friend knows that these are not immediately matters for me, but I will undertake to draw the attention of my right hon. Friends to such matters. We are in touch particularly with the Department of Trade and Industry on the question of employment in the Norwich area. The reduction in employment in the footwear industry in Norwich has largely been achieved by normal wastage rather than by making workers redundant, I am glad to say.
    Dr. Miller: Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that it is the policy of the Government which is booting people out of industry and that it is the policy of abolition of investment grants which is "shooing" other industries away from these areas which need and could have the industry?
    Mr. Smith: I do not accept that. If the hon. Gentleman talks to industrialists he will find that wage and cost inflation have accelerated the shake-out which has been going on and that we are still seeing the effects of the original vicious wage inflation that we had during the period of the last Administration.

    Older Workers
    Mr. Pardoeasked the Secretary of State for Employment how many men between 60 and 65 years of age were unemployed at the latest date for which figures are available; and what percentage of the insured male population in that age group they represented.
    Mr. David Howell: At July, 1971, the number of registered wholly unemployed men aged 60 to 64 years in Great Britain was 105,167. Expressed as a proportion of all male employees in this age group, the figure was 8·9 per cent.
    Mr. Pardoe: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the male unemployment rate he has given in this age group is very much higher than was the case for all the other age groups in July? Is he aware that a large number of these people are in development areas and that their chances of ever getting full-time employment before they reach retirement age are
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    extremely slim? Does he not think that it is time seriously to consider the lowering of the age of retirement from 65 to 60 in development areas—not the whole of the country. Would he also reconsider the regulations which debar seasonal workers from getting unemployment pay after more than three years of seasonal working?
    Mr. Howell: I certainly share the hon. Member's assessment of the seriousness of the problem. It is a very serious and, for many people, tragic problem. I know it is of small comfort to those involved, but the proportion which this represents of total unemployment has not changed very much over the years. Nevertheless it is a serious problem. My Department spends a lot of time urging firms not to discharge older workers. We have a scheme for helping those who are over 45 in the intermediate and development areas. As for the hon. Gentleman's other ideas, I will consider them but at first glance I am not sure that they would help the problem very much.
    Mr. Cormack: What is the Department doing to encourage the employment of older workers?
    Mr. Howell: As I have said, there is a direct policy of encouragement to firms through our local branches and through all our efforts in the various employment areas. At the same time we have a direct scheme in the intermediate and development areas for encouraging employers to train and keep on workers who are over 45.
    Mr. Heffer: Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House how this scheme is working? Hon. Members who come from development areas have seen no evidence that such a scheme is in operation or is working. Will the hon. Gentleman explain this and say what the Government intend to do in the future? In view of the growing unemployment, will the hon. Gentleman also explain how, on television last night, the Prime Minister could say that he was proud of what has been done in the last 18 months?
    Mr. Howell: On the serious point—as opposed to the polemic one—on the actual life of people in the hon. Gentleman's constituency, the answer is that the training scheme is getting under way. It is an innovation by this Government and,

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    of course, it takes time to get going. We are watching it very closely and, if it needs supplementing and developing, we shall develop it. As to the hon. Gentleman's broader points, I cannot see that they are worthy of a serious answer.

    Scotland
    Mr. Smallasked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement on the effect of measures announced on 23rd November, 1971, on the level of employment in the construction industry in Scotland.
    Mr. Bryan: The measures we announced on 23rd November are only part of the considerable stimulus we have given to the national economy and to the development areas in particular. The various measures we have taken should provide an appreciable and growing number of jobs for Scottish construction workers.
    Mr. Small: I do not think that the efforts of the Government have been so satisfactory. Will the hon. Gentleman examine the statement made by the Prime Minister in Glasgow, where the regulations are so tight that the £1 million to assist amenities is as yet unused?
    Mr. Bryan: I will certainly examine the statement and its consequences. I must point out what has been done in Scotland for the construction industry. There have been increased housing improvement grants; special help on the Stonehouse project; £60 million public infrastructure—that is 37 per cent of all spending in the country on the infrastructure; £17 million on various environmental and improvement projects; and the work of the Scottish Housing Association. This all adds up to the most tremendous boost.
    Mr. Redmond: Will my hon. Friend expand on the figures he has given for the building industry? Are there not local shortages of building workers which hinder some of the development schemes of the Government?
    Mr. Bryan: This is so. I have not firsthand knowledge of Scotland on this, but when I go to Newcastle on Wednesday this is one problem which I have to look at. I have discovered that there are shortages of craftsmen, and we hope to be able to help in training, and so on. As
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    my hon. Friend says, this shortage is holding up building.
    Mr. James Hamilton: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that, as the C.B.I. has said, many measures which have been introduced are of a temporary nature and will not solve the unemployment in Scotland? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in the steel construction industry, of which I am a member, there is serious redundancy? If the Government were desirous of doing so, they could introduce public works to give employment to these workers and to ancillary workers.
    Mr. Bryan: This is not merely a question of the figures produced and the amount available. The push that is going from the central Government to the local authorities, pressing them to get on with this work, is very considerable. We are doing all we can.
    Mr. Adam Hunterasked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will make a statement on his Department's estimates of the effect of measures announced on 23rd November, 1971, on the level of employment in the Scottish mining industry.
    Mr. Bryan: The bulk of the investment which the National Coal Board is bringing forward is in assisted areas but it is too early to say at all precisely what effects this will have in Scotland.
    Mr. Hunter: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the National Coal Board's share of the capital works expenditure will have little or no effect in providing mining jobs in Scotland? If he is anxious to safeguard existing mining jobs, will he ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry to restore the ban on the importation of expensive foreign coal?
    Mr. Bryan: In general, redundancies in mining are due not so much to lack of demand for coal but to the closure of high-cost pits.
    Mr. Douglas: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that there is a considerable shortage of coking coal? Should not he and his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry enter into discussions with the National Coal Board on the exploitation of the considerable reserves of coking coal in Scotland?
    Mr. Bryan: I will certainly bring the hon. Gentleman's question to the attention of my right hon. Friend.

    Industrial Relations Act (Publicity)
    Mr. Martenasked the Secretary of State for Employment if he is satisfied with the progress made by the official publicity so far available on the Industrial Relations Act; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Bryan: Yes, Sir. Two of the three booklets about the Act, published by my Department, have already been reprinted to meet demand and the first in our series of educational films has so far sold 142 copies and been hired over 600 times.
    Mr. Marten: Does my hon. Friend feel there are enough of these booklets available when required to counteract some of the misapprehensions which appear to exist in some quarters about this very good Act?
    Mr. Bryan: I am glad to say that the barrage of lies we had to suffer from hon. Members opposite during the passage of the Bill seems to have created a great thirst for knowledge. So far we have distributed 900,000 copies of the guide to the Act and a million copies of the short guide and the film has had the biggest sale of any film ever produced by the Central Office of Information.
    Mr. Heffer: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the reason for the fairly reasonable sale of these booklets is that the employers are trying to find the truth, and are happy to do so, because of the barrage of lies from the Conservative benches on the Bill? Would he not be much happier if he were to distribute the T.U.C.'s document on good industrial relations which, in the view of this side of the House, is a much better document and much more helpful to good industrial relations than any Government material issued on the Bill?
    Mr. Bryan: It is a healthy sign that we should all study any information of this sort that is available and I hope the trade unions have as great success in distributing their document as we have had in distributing ours.

    Birmingham
    Mr. Carterasked the Secretary of State for Employment what are the latest unemployment figures for Birmingham.
    Mr. Dudley Smith: At 8th November the number of people registered as unemployed in the Birmingham travel-to-work area was 39,522, including 12,109 who were temporarily stopped.
    Mr. Carter: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that those figures relating to Britain's premier industrial city are disgraceful? What policies have the Government at present to deal with the situation? Furthermore, what other proposals have they to deal with the figures for November, which probably will be an increase on those for October?
    Mr. Smith: I cannot say what the figures will be for November because they will not be published for another week but as a West Midlands Member with many constituents working in Birmingham I am confident that the steps the Government have already taken will create a general upturn in demand in Birmingham and will put Birmingham back on the right employment road. Its problems are not nearly as difficult as those in Scotland and the North-East and I am sure that the situation will come right.

    National Institute for Housecraft
    Mrs. Castleasked the Secretary of State for Employment what are the Government's plans for the future of the National Institute for Housecraft.
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Secretary of State for Employment what proposals the Government have for future support of the National Institute for Housecraft.
    Mr. Bryan: The institute has done very valuable work both in the setting of recognised national standards and in training for domestic employment but, in the light particularly of alternative facilities developed to both these ends over recent years, the progress of which my right hon. Friend will continue to watch, he has decided that the annual grant my Department makes to the institute can no longer be justified and the institute has informed

    1495
    him that it will, in consequence, have to close down.
    Arrangements are being made to enable the institute to fulfil its commitments for the present academic year and consideration will be given to means for securing the continued recognition of the institute's diploma.
    We shall enable the institute to give proper compensation to its long-serving staff made redundant as a result of this decision and my Department will do all it can, when the time comes, to assist those of the staff seeking other employment. It employs about 40 people, many of whom work part-time.
    Mrs. Castle: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this further petty little economy by the Conservative Government to finance tax reliefs for the well-to-do will be treated on this side of the House with the contempt it deserves? Is he further aware that the purposes for which the late Ernest Bevin created this institute 25 years ago are as urgent as ever—namely, reflecting the need to get recognition of domestic employment as a worthwhile job and career and requiring proper training skills and adequate rewards for those who reach the recognised standards of proficiency? What do the Government intend to do to ensure that this important work is continued? In particular what steps is the hon. Gentleman taking to establish a national standard of skill and examination to replace the diploma which was issued by the institute?
    Mr. Bryan: It is precisely because the situation has changed since the days of Ernest Bevin that this change is being made. My right hon. Friend has taken a very close personal interest in this matter and has studied it very carefully. He has concluded that local education authorities and the major employers of domestic workers, such as hospitals and hotels, have developed facilities which to a large extent have replaced those which are offered by the institute.
    Mrs. Castle: May I ask for a reply to my last specific point, namely, what steps are being taken to establish a national standard of skill in examination to replace the diploma?
    Mr. Bryan: The diploma is being retained and, as the right hon. Lady
    1496
    will know, examinations are already taken by trainees who do not attend the institute. The diploma will remain.
    Mrs. Short: If the Government grant is to be withdrawn, how does the hon. Gentleman expect diploma courses to continue without Government support? Furthermore, what discussions has he had with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science to see that an adequate substitute is provided in colleges? Could he say what alternative will be accepted by the hotel industry and, for example, student hostels, old people's homes and other establishments of that kind which in the past have relied on the institute's diploma?
    Mr. Bryan: To answer the last part of the hon. Lady's question first, my right hon. Friend has consulted the following parties: the Chairman of the Catering Industrial Training Board, the Chairman of the Local Government Industrial Training Board, the Department of Health, and so on. Although they all have great good will for the institute, they have reached the same conclusion as has my right hon. Friend, namely that the duties and achievements of these centres in the past have now been taken over by other institutions. Perhaps I may give the figures. [HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."] Last year some 203 people took the housecraft diploma whereas 6,250 candidates took courses of similar type in other institutions, so the size of the task has got out of all proportion.
    Dame Irene Ward: Is my hon. Friend aware how much this decision is regretted by those of us, such as my noble Friend Viscountess Davidson and myself, who were in at the beginning of the establishment of this institute? [HON. MEMBERS: "Keep it short."] Will he give an assurance that everything possible will be done to see that staff made redundant will get good jobs in the future? Will he also pay great tribute to those who were connected with the concept of the institute? We accept the decision with very great regret.
    Mr. Bryan: On behalf of my right hon. Friend, perhaps I might pay tribute to all those who created the institute and their work in it over the years, not least my hon. Friend the Member for

    1497
    Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward). I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that my right hon. Friend has given great consideration to this matter. I assure her that my right hon. Friend greatly disliked taking this action. He did so on its merits.

  GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS (DISPERSAL)
  Mr. Bagierasked the Prime Minister whether he can now say when he expects to receive the report from the Government Departments Dispersal Committee; and if he will make a statement.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Edward Heath): I expect next year to receive recommendations indicating how much of the headquarters work in London should remain there and where the rest might best be relocated. It will be our policy to disperse from central London such work as can go without causing unacceptable damage to the efficiency of Government business.
  Mr. Bagier: May I first congratulate the Prime Minister on reaching his Questions? In the light of this report, does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that since his Government came to office the net result for the North-Eastern Region, for whatever reasons, has been the departure of the Land Commission's headquarters, the decision to place the V.A.T. headquarters at Southend and an announcement last week of the cancellation of the Inland Revenue's computer centre, which was to be placed at Washington in my constituency and would have provided 2,000 jobs? Does not the Prime Minister appreciate that his image is one of a Government who do not intend to move Government jobs out of London? Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to adopt a stronger line with his Ministers by telling them to stand up to their civil servants and to say, if it is necessary for a Government office to go out of London, that it must go?
  The Prime Minister: It was a Conservative Government in 1963 which inaugurated the dispersal policy. It was a policy of dispersing executive work, especially those parts of the Government
  1498
  organisation which could be hived off separately to other parts of the country. The review now being undertaken is very much more complex since it deals with those parts of the Government machine concerned with policy and endeavours to keep only the bare minimum of headquarters staff in London whilst dispersing the rest.
  The cases mentioned by the hon. Gentleman have been dealt with many times. They do not alter the fact that, as a result of the first dispersal policy, there are between 20,000 and 35,000 civil servants still in process of being moved to other parts of the country. The total figure will depend on the final decision about the review of P.A.Y.E. and the Inland Revenue organisation.

  RHODESIA, BASSETLAW
  Mr. Ashtonasked the Prime Minister whether he will pay an official visit to Rhodesia in the constituency of Bassetlaw.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Ashton: Is the Prime Minister aware that my constituents in Rhodesia will be very disappointed with that answer? They would like to question the right hon. Gentleman on the five new principles introduced into Rhodesia, namely, higher prices of school dinners, higher prices generally, higher unemployment, higher rents and no school milk. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of them feel that they have been sold out in view of the promises of the party opposite at the last election?
  The Prime Minister: Clearly what the hon. Gentleman dislikes is that we have been carrying out our promises.
  Mr. Heffer: Silly old fool.

  DEPARTMENT OF EMPLOYMENT
  Mr. Skinnerasked the Prime Minister if he will appoint an additional Under-Secretary to the Department of Employment in view of the unemployment situation.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Skinner: Is the Prime Minister aware that he could utilise an additional Under-Secretary by directing him to count the heads of all those who are unemployed but not on the register? Since the right hon. Gentleman was in a bragging mood on television last night, will he repeat the following words slowly after me, without the aid of a teleprompter: "My Government have thrown a million workers on the scrap-heap in the interests of Tory economic policy"?
  The Prime Minister: I have never known any words of the hon. Gentleman wise enough to be repeated.
  Mr. Tom Boardman: Does my right hon. Friend agree that due to technology the pattern of unemployment has changed from that of previous years and that it raises fundamental questions such as the age of retirement, the hours of work and the type of retraining which is necessary? What consideration is being given to these matters?
  The Prime Minister: These are major factors in the present level of unemployment. They are matters which surely should be taken seriously by both parties.
  Mr. Atkinson: Is the Prime Minister aware that many of his Cabinet colleagues are now repeating his story that high unemployment is the result of high wage awards? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether he believes that, if workers did not ask for wage increases or took a reduction, they would still be in employment?
  The Prime Minister: High wages combined with high productivity are desirable. This has been proved in Europe and in North America. But high wages running far ahead of productivity cannot do anything but cause unemployment. That was stated by the Leader of the Opposition when he was in power.

  MEANS TEST (CO-ORDINATION)
  Mr. Pardoeasked the Prime Minister which Minister is responsible for co-ordinating the means test now operated by the various Government Departments.
  The Prime Minister: The necessary co-ordination is already achieved through the normal interdepartmental machinery.
  Mr. Pardoe: Is the Prime Minister aware that, as a result of answers to four Questions by four Government Departments last month, we now have the first comprehensive picture of the means-tested society? Together, these four Departments are administering 7 million individual means tests for 38 means-tested benefits. Does not the Prime Minister think that it is time to appoint a Select Committee and a Cabinet Minister to look at ways in which we can bring the P.A.Y.E. system and the welfare benefits together in a common onslaught on poverty through a negative income tax?
  The Prime Minister: This matter is being thoroughly examined. It is a very complex problem which has been looked at by various organisations and individuals for many years. In opposition we did a great deal of work on it, and the Government machinery has been working on it for a number of years. No one has yet found a way in which a negative income tax could be operated satisfactorily to deal with the problem that the hon. Gentleman has raised. I personally have long wanted to see a rationalisation of all this. It would help administration and it would also help individuals. We have gone some way towards it. No one has yet found a completely satisfactory way of doing it.
  Mr. Houghton: Is the Prime Minister aware that at one time P.A.Y.E. was thought by the Inland Revenue to be impossible? Does not he agree that where there is a will on this matter a way can be found?
  The Prime Minister: I agree entirely and that is why we are persisting in this. We do not take the attitude that it is impossible. With the best advice that we can get—and technically, through computerisation, one can do more—we are trying to find a way of dealing with a wide range of different social service benefits in the context of income tax. If one limited it to one or two of the major benefits, one could operate such a system. But that would not deal with the point made by the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) about there being 38 major means tests. In fact, I

  1501
  think that there are 43 altogether. We have not yet got to a situation where we can deal with them all in that way.

  PRIME MINISTER (CORRESPONDENCE)
  Mr. William Priceasked the Prime Minister how many Questions he has answered from hon. Members requesting information about the number of letters he has received on specific subjects.
  The Prime Minister: Seventy-seven since the General Election. The total number of such Questions answered by the then Prime Minister during the 1968–69 and 1969–70 Sessions of Parliament together was eight.
  Mr. Price: Will the Prime Minister tell us why lie now refuses to answer Questions about letters received on different subjects when this information has been readily available in the past both from him and from his predecessor? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some hon. Members on this side of the House regard his determination to answer no Question if it can be avoided as a gross abuse of the House? What he is trying to do is to cover up the deception that he used to win the election and the total incompetence that he has shown since.
  The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is wrong. In the last Session I answered more Questions than any Prime Minister before me.
  Mr. Onslow: Are not Questions like that of the hon. Member for Rugby (Mr. William Price) a gross abuse of Question Time?
  Mr. Lipton: Is the Prime Minister aware that I have written to him one letter in the past few months to which I have not yet had a reply? Forget about all these other letters. Answer mine.
  The Prime Minister: I am prepared to inquire into the particular case of the hon. Gentleman. However, I recall one letter that he wrote to me to which he received a reply by return and for which he afterwards thanked me.
  Mr. Lipton: That was two years ago.

  MINISTER OF POSTS AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS (SPEECH)
  Mr. Whiteheadasked the Prime Minister whether the public speech of the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications at Billingham on 20th November on Northern Ireland represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Whitehead: Will the right hon. Gentleman take this opportunity to put on record, as did one of his junior Ministers earlier in the week, his view that full coverage of the views and opinions of both communities in Northern Ireland and of the security forces in their difficult and dangerous task by the media is indispensable if we are to maintain there the institutions of a free society?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. That point was made forcibly by my right hon. Friend in his speech. It is one with which I fully agree. My right hon. Friend went on to say that he did not think that there could be equality of treatment between the Services and the communities in Northern Ireland and the gunmen and that those who were breaking the law were not entitled to get that treatment.
  Mr. Hordern: Will not my right hon. Friend remark on the extraordinary contrast between Senator Kennedy's attitude towards public affairs and his attitude towards private affairs? [HON. MEMBERS: "Disgraceful."] Is my right hon. Friend aware—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."] He has no responsibility—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Horsham (Mr. Hordern) is, of course, responsible for his own supplementary question, but he should be allowed to ask it.
  Hon. Members: No.
  Mr. Hordern: Is my right hon. Friend aware—[Interruption.]—his words have angered—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."]—very many people in this country—[HON. MEMBERS: "Shocking."]—and have caused a considerable degree—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order.
  Mr. Hordern: His comments have done absolutely no good at all and should be withdrawn. [Interruption.] His attitude is to be universally regretted—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."]—by hon. Members in all parts of the House.
  The Prime Minister: I have already made plain in the House my views about Senator Kennedy's remarks, and I have no further comment to make.
  Mr. Rose: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the whole House is shocked by that supplementary question from his hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr. Hordern)? Is the Prime Minister aware of the recent decision of the I.T.A. to refuse a private showing to hon. Members of the film "South of the Border"? As the Authority is ultimately responsible, under the Television Act, to this House, will the right hon. Gentleman urge on the I.T.A. that not members of the Press but hon. Members of this House, who are responsible to their constituents, should have the first priority in viewing this film in order to make a decision and judgment for themselves?
  The Prime Minister: It is entirely a matter for the I.T.A. I was not aware that that was the Authority's decision, but I am perfectly prepared to see whether the I.T.A. realises the implications.
  Mr. St. John-Stevas: Will my right hon. Friend take note of the fact that in the opinion of some hon. Members the objective standard of reporting on television has much improved since the meeting of the Home Secretary and the heads of the B.B.C. and the I.T.A. in regard to Northern Ireland?
  The Prime Minister: The media have a very difficult task to carry out in Northern Ireland and I think that they have been endeavouring to do their best. I agree with the original supplementary question—that the fullest coverage is necessary. At the same time I sometimes feel that when the Forces are asked to operate knowing all the time that the cameras are just over their shoulders, it is an equally difficult task for them. There must, therefore, be a responsible balance struck in this matter.
  Mr. Ormes: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a minority of 40 per cent. who must be adequately represented
  1504
  in the reports that are made and that any attempt at censorship which would deprive that minority of being so represented would be deeply resented on this side of the House?
  The Prime Minister: There is absolutely no intention of depriving the minority in Northern Ireland of any sort of representation on the media—absolutely none. Indeed I am sure that much the best thing is that they should have the fullest possible coverage. This is, of course, quite different from saying what I think upset many hon. Members and many people in the country, namely, that the I.R.A. should have an equal right to appear on television. That is an entirely different matter. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the answer to his supplementary question must be for both communities in Northern Ireland to have the fullest opportunity in this matter.
  Mr. Thorpe: In view of the supplementary question asked by his hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr. Hordern), does the Prime Minister agree that one of the great traditions of this House is that, however strongly and violently we may disagree on matters of policy, we do not have to romp around in the gutter to find our arguments?
  The Prime Minister: It is not for me to indicate to hon. Members how they should put their supplementary questions. In the last 20 years there have been occasions when what would sometimes be termed personal matters have been dealt with. I think I have made my position clear. Senator Kennedy has commented on public affairs which are the internal affairs of this country. The responsibility for so doing of course rests with him, but when he does that we are entitled to say that we feel that he has not fully understood the problem and that we wish he would do so.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Houghton: May I ask the Leader of the House to state the business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council end Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw): Yes, Sir. It may be convenient if I announce today the

1505
proposed business until the House rises for the Christmas Adjournment:
MONDAY, 13TH DECEMBER—Private Members' Motions until 7 o'clock.
Afterwards, Second Reading of the Employment Medical Advisory Service Bill, of the Sierra Leone Republic Bill (Lords), and of the Island of Rockall Bill (Lords).
Motions on the Rate Support Grant (Increase) Order and the Double Taxation Relief (Trinidad and Tobago) Order.
TUESDAY, 14TH DECEMBER—Civil List Resolutions.
Motions on the Textile Council Orders.
WEDNESDAY, 15TH DECEMBER—Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill.
THURSDAY, 16TH DECEMBER—Remaining stages of the Consolidated Fund Bill.
Second Reading of the Iron and Steel Bill.
Remaining stages of the Superannuation Bill.
FRIDAY, 17TH DECEMBER—Second Reading of the Airports Authority Bill.
MONDAY, 20TH DECEMBER—Second Reading of the Ministerial and Other Salaries Bill.
Resolutions relating to parliamentary remuneration.
Remaining stages of the National Insurance Regulations (Validation) Bill.
Motions on the Immunities and Privileges Orders.
TUESDAY, 21ST DECEMBER—Second Reading of the Civil List Bill and of the Harbours (Loans) Bill;
Remaining stages of the Sierra Leone Republic Bill (Lords) and the Island of Rockall Bill (Lords).
Consideration of Church of England (General Synod) Measures.
WEDNESDAY, 22ND DECEMBER—It is expected that the House will meet at 11 a.m., that Questions will be taken until 12 noon and that the House will adjourn at 5 p.m. until Monday, 17th January.
Mr. Houghton: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for meeting the convenience of the House by stating the business right up to Christmas.
1506
I have four points about which I should like to question the right hon. Gentleman. The first is about possible statements next week. Is the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary likely to make a statement on the grave events in the conflict between India and Pakistan?
Second, the Prime Minister appears to have made an announcement at the meeting of the National Council of Social Service yesterday regarding further expenditure on the voluntary social services. Is the Secretary of State for Social Services likely to make a statement next week on this matter?
My third and fourth questions relate to the business for the week commencing Monday, 20th December. First, regarding the Second Reading of the Ministerial and Other Salaries Bill and the Resolutions relating to parliamentary remuneration. I understand that it is the intention to debate both together. May we be assured that the debate will be able to range over the Bill and the Motions at the same time?
Next, regarding the Second Reading of the Civil List Bill on Tuesday, 21st December, is it the right hon. Gentleman's intention to take the Committee and remaining stages of the Measure on the Floor of the House?
Mr. Whitelaw: The answer to the right hon. Gentleman's first question is that my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary is due to answer Questions on Monday and will certainly make a statement on Monday about the grave situation in India and Pakistan.
The answer to the second question is that I will certainly call the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services to what the right hon. Gentleman said, but I do not know whether a statement will be made. I cannot commit my right hon. Friend to making one, but I will certainly consult him on the subject.
If it is in your judgment correct, Mr. Speaker, and if it is the wish of the House, that the Ministerial and Other Salaries Bill and the Resolutions relating to parliamentary remuneration should be taken together, then that would be entirely suitable to the Government. The answer to

1507
the right hon. Gentleman's third question, therefore, is that we are entirely in Mr. Speaker's hands and in the hands of the House in this matter. On the fourth point, it certainly is the intention that the Committee and remaining stages of the Civil List Bill will be taken on the floor of the House.
Mr. Wilkinson: In view of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary's commitment to make statements as appropriate on the developing India and Pakistan situation, would my right hon. Friend consider asking the Foreign Secretary to make a statement tomorrow, as I understand that there has been an attack on British shipping, and as Asians in this country have families who are seriously affected by the fighting and they would like news at the earliest opportunity?
Mr. Whitelaw: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am sure that the House will agree that in the present difficult and fluid situation it is important that any statement made to the House should be based on full and clear information. In those circumstances, I think that it would be right to say that my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary will make the statement on Monday, but I could not possibly rule out, in the event of some particular serious occurrence, a statement being made tomorrow if it became necessary.
Mr. Peart: In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Alfred Morris) and my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun), last week, the Leader of the House said that he would investigate a matter concerning deputations. Has the right hon. Gentleman completed that investigation? If he has, when will there be a statement?
Mr. Whitelaw: Yes, certainly I have. I have been very fully into the matter, and I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for asking me about it. I can assure him, the hon. Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Alfred Morris) and all hon. Members that Ministers of this Government will always be ready, by arrangement, as is their duty, to see Members of the House. Naturally, it is always, and must remain, the practice
1508
that Ministers should have some discretion over deputations.
Sir R. Cary: Is my right hon. Friend aware that when we debated the Lawrence Report in May, 1965, concerning ministerial salaries, Members' remuneration and other related matters, the debate ranged over the whole matters concerned in the Lawrence Report?
Mr. Whitelaw: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I did appreciate that that was the position. But, as always in these cases, we are naturally, Mr. Speaker, bound by what you feel and by the general wishes of the House. I would hope that they could be taken together and that we could have the wide-ranging debate suggested by my hon. Friend. But the ultimate decision is not one for me.
Mr. Speaker: Order. On that point 1 am advised not to commit myself until I have seen the Motions.
Mr. David Steel: May I ask the Leader of the House when a statement will be made before Christmas about the final composition of the Pearce Commission in Rhodesia and the conditions under which it will carry out its task?
Mr. Whitelaw: At this stage, it is right that I should say that I will report what the hon. Gentleman has said to my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary. I know that he wishes to get on with this matter as soon as he can.
Mr. Raison: Would my right hon. Friend consider the point that these very important regional plans, like the South-East Regional Plan, should at some point be put before the House? Everyone else seems to have a chance to contribute to or comment on them except ourselves. As the implications are important, may we have a chance to debate them?
Mr. Whitelaw: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. I will consult with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment about the information given and how it is given. I could not promise time for a debate on these matters before Christmas, but I certainly note the importance to the House of what the hon. Gentleman said.
Mr. Carmichael: Has the Leader of the House any idea of when the Government will be bringing forward a Bill for

1509
the reorganisation of the Scottish Health Service? May we have an assurance that this matter will be debated first in the House and not in another place?
Mr. Whitelaw: I cannot say when that would be. I have no reason to suppose that, whenever it came forward, it would be debated in another place first.
Mr. Edward Taylor: Would my right hon. Friend say whether he anticipates that before the Christmas Recess a further statement will be made by the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry on the position of Upper Clyde Shipbuilders?
Mr. Whitelaw: I cannot say when such a statement will be made, but I will certainly call the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry to what my hon. Friend has said.
Mr. Tinn: Will the Leader of the House ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will try to make a statement before the Christmas Recess on the proposed British Steel Corporation development at Redcar, news of which is anxiously awaited in the area, and a favourable decision on which would be the best possible Christmas present to the people of Teesside?
Mr. Whitelaw: I note what the hon. Gentleman has said and I shall call that to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. These and other matters, no doubt, Mr. Speaker, could probably be debated on the Second Reading of the Iron and Steel Bill next Thursday.
Mr. Money: Could my right hon. Friend help on a matter which is a small one but much to the convenience of hon. Members, concerning the changing of dates of Standing Committees? The Statutory Orders Committee this week was changed, and hon. Members had only two days' notice. Notice was received on Monday to the effect that the Committee would be sitting on Tuesday instead of on Wednesday, which made it almost impossible for those of us who had to make prior arrangements to be present on that occasion.
Mr. Whitelaw: I am afraid that I know nothing of this matter, but naturally, in
1510
response to my hon. Friend, I will look into it.
Mr. Palmer: May I press the right hon. Gentleman on a point that I have raised before? We should have an opportunity in the House fairly soon to debate the Rothschild proposals on Government research, which are causing considerable concern in scientific circles.
Mr. Whitelaw: There are various reports on this important subject. I cannot give an undertaking about a debate, but I realise that it would be of value to the House if it could be arranged.
Mr. Cormack: May I ask my right hon. Friend to ensure that soon after Christmas we have full opportunity to debate metrication?
Mr. Whitelaw: I note what my hon. Friend has said, but I cannot make a commitment to any exact time at this stage.
Mr. Heffer: During the course of the debate and discussion about pensions, the Secretary of State for Social Services said that he would look at the question of some sort of extra allowance for heating. This was pressed on him by hon. Members on this side of the House particularly. Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether his right hon. Friend will make a statement about some sort of Christmas bonus, heating allowances or other extra financial aid to the old age pensioners before Christmas?
Mr. Whitelaw: I cannot commit myself to any such statement, but I shall certainly raise the matter with my right hon. Friend.
Mr. Marten: Can my right hon. Friend say when the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster will be making a statement to the House on his visit to Brussels on Saturday?
Mr. Whitelaw: On Monday.
Mr. Douglas: Would the right hon. Gentleman accept the view that the current proposals for the size of the Scottish Standing Committee, which is to number 26, are quite unacceptable to this side of the House? Would he also indicate when the Government are likely to make a statement or give time to debate the

1511
White Paper on the reform of local government in Scotland?
Mr. Whitelaw: On the first point, this is a matter for the Committee of Selection and it is for the Committee to determine. On the second point, I understand that there was the offer to debate this subject in the Scottish Grand Committee last summer, which was not taken up.
Dr. Glyn: May I press my right hon. Friend on one point? When we debate the Boyle Report, is it correct that the House will have no opportunity of altering in any way any of the recommendations in that report and that it will be merely a general debate and expression of opinion?
Mr. Whitelaw: There are two parts. The first part relates to the Ministerial and Other Salaries Bill. This is a normal Bill and there are opportunities for the House to alter this Bill, as there are to alter other Bills. Concerning Motions on remuneration, they come within the normal category of Motions that either have to be accepted or thrown out. That opportunity is available to the House.
Dr. Gilbert: May I remind the Leader of the House that it is now nearly 12 months since I last asked whether we could have a debate on the Crowther Report? As my right hon. Friend has suggested that legislation may be forthcoming, may we have an assurance that there will be a debate before the legislative proposals are laid before the House, as this report is very important.
Mr. Whitelaw: I will consider what the hon. Gentleman has said.
Mr. Wellbeloved: If the right hon. Gentleman concludes his consideration about the Christmas bonus for old age pensioners, would he take note that both sides of the House would be prepared to rush through the necessary legislation during one day, similar to the business that he has announced for next week?
Mr. Whitelaw: I did not commit myself to anything. I merely said that I would consult with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services about what my hon. Friend said. That remains my position.
Dr. Dickson Mabon: May I raise two matters? First, may I reinforce the plea for a statement from the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry on U.C.S. in the light of the tragic death of Mr. Stenhouse and the need to give some comfort to those working to help U.C.S. over the Christmas and New Year period? Second, does he realise that we had to decline an invitation to debate the proposals on local government reform in Scotland because we had the proposals on housing finance and other business at that time? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the Secretary of State has declared himself in favour of making a statement before the end of the year on the representations of the churches in Scotland and of the local authorities in Scotland in relation to very specific matters? That being so, may we have a day's debate in the House in the middle of January when we return?
Mr. Whitelaw: I appreciate the importance of the point about Upper Clyde Shipbuilders, particularly after the tragic death of Mr. Stenhouse, and so does my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. I know that he will wish to keep the House fully informed. On the second point, I simply knew that this proposal had been refused. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for telling me the reasons for it. I also note what he has said about my right hon. Friend, whom I will consult on these matters.
Mr. Donald Stewart: As 18 months have passed since the General Election, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us when the Government intend to bring forward a Bill to establish a Scottish Assembly? I know that the right hon. Gentleman may say, "Not next week" but can he give us a date when the Government intend to bring it forward?
Mr. Whitelaw: Not before Christmas.
Major - General Jack d'Avigdor-Goldsmid: When will the House consider the Horserace Totalisator and Betting Levy Boards Bill?
Mr. Whitelaw: In view of what I have just said, this too will not be before Christmas.
Mr. Frank Allaun: We are all grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his statement a minute ago that Ministers are

1513
always willing to meet deputations accompanied by their Members. We were not so satisfied when, a minute later, he qualified it by saying that, of course, they must exercise their discretion. Would he point out to the Secretary of State for the Environment that he has just turned down two deputations accompanied by their M.P.s, one from the Association of London Housing Estates, representing 130 tenants' associations, and that the Minister made the excuse that he wanted something in writing? The Secretary of State now has it in writing from this Association, so would the right hon. Gentleman ask his right hon. Friend to exercise his discretion favourably in view of such important associations being involved?
Mr. Whitelaw: The hon. Gentleman must not put words into my mouth. In order that I should be particularly accurate in a matter which I realise affects the House and in order that I should be absolutely accurate in regard to the custom of previous Governments and this Government, I made the statement as I did in answer to the right hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart). In view of what the hon. Gentleman has now said I should read it again: "I can certainly assure the right hon. Gentleman and the House that Ministers in this Government will always be ready by arrangement to see Members of this House, as is their duty. Naturally, it has always been and must remain the practice that Ministers should have some discretion over deputations."
Mr. Orme: That is exactly what he said.
Mr. Ross: Does the right hon. Gentleman think it right that the most important Bill with which the Scots have had to deal for the past 50 years is to be dealt with by the smallest Committee for 50 years? Would he have regard to his pledges from that Box about the size being related to the importance?
Mr. Whitelaw: I did not know that the fact which the right hon. Gentleman mentions was a fact. He says that is going to happen. I did not know that it was going to happen. That again is a matter for the Committee of Selection. As to my pledges, certainly I will have regard to them.
Mr. Kaufman: On a point of order. You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that, when we had the last recess, a great deal of inconvenience was caused to hon. Members who had the Adjournment debates on the last day, because the Motion for the Adjournment was taken on the same day and those debates were pushed out. Would it be possible for us to have some assurance before the next business statement about the date of the Motion for the recess, so that hon. Members' Adjournment Motions are not interfered with?
Mr. Whitelaw: I took note of the criticisms on the last occasion that I was doing it much too late, so I am making arrangements nit to do that again.
Mr. Speaker: Perhaps it will help the House if I say now that, for the debate on Wednesday, 15th December, on the second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill, hon. Members may hand in to my office by 9.30 on the morning of Tuesday, 14th December, their names and the topics which they wish to raise. The ballot will be carried out as on the last occasion. Hon. Members may hand in only their own names and topics.
May I also remind the House that this Consolidated Fund Bill contains the Civil Vote on Account, so hon. Members may raise any questions of policy or administration arising out of the Civil Estimates. The Bill also makes provision to cover the Defence Supplementary Estimates set out in House of Commons Paper No. 7. The opportunity of raising defence topics is restricted to the particulars contained in those Supplementary Estimates. I shall put out the result of the ballot as soon as I can on Tuesday, 14th December.

EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
Mr. Milne: I beg leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 for the purpose of debating a specific and important matter which should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the sending of a letter by the Prime Minister to Mr. Trygve Bratteli, the Prime Minister of Norway, concerning the stand being taken by his country in the negotiations on fisheries with the European Economic Community, and its effect on British entry."

1515
The specific and important matter concerns the future of the fishing communities of Britain and Norway and importance is added to the fisheries negotiations because of the promise given to the House that Britain would not sign the Treaty of Accession unless safeguards and conditions satisfactory to this House were obtained in the negotiations due to take place on Saturday, 11th December. The date of the resumed negotiations also underlines the need for urgent consideration of the matter by this House.
The letter sent by the Prime Minister is regarded in Norwegian circles and by the Norwegian people as an unwarranted intrusion into Norwegian affairs. It is also an unwarranted intrusion into the job of negotiating a fisheries agreement by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and his team, because it makes a request of Norway's Prime Minister to tone down Norway's demands in regard to the retention of the 12-mile limit, and it asks for more flexibility in this respect.
It also states that there is a limit as to how far the Community can go in this respect, and that Britain wishes to have a Community of ten and not of nine or eight. As the arrangements made—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman has done very well so far, but he is getting very much into the merits and making the kind of speech which he
1516
would make on a later occasion if his Motion were successful.
Mr. Milne: I apologise for straying a little, and I close on this comment. The arrangements which will apply to the fishing industry must enable our fishing population to look to the future with confidence. That view is shared by both Norway and Britain, and it is the standard set by Norway's negotiators. I should have thought that Britain's Prime Minister would have been prepared to accept such a standard instead of attempting to water down the demands of a fellow applicant.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter which he thinks should have urgent consideration, namely
"the sending of a letter by the Prime Minister to Mr. Trygve Bratteli, the Prime Minister of Norway, concerning the stand being taken by his country in negotiations on fisheries with the European Economic Community, and the effect upon British entry."
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for having given me notice of his intention to make this application. I, of course, have to consider it only from a procedural point of view. It is without doubt a very important matter, but my decision is whether it should be debated, if the House gives leave, under the provision of Standing Order No. 9. I am afraid that I cannot accede to the hon. Member's application.

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  SUPPLY
  [6TH ALLOTTED DAY],—considered.

  PUBLIC EXPENDITURE
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [8th December]:
  That this House takes note of the White Paper on Public Expenditure to 1975–76 (Command Paper No. 4829).—[Mr. Maurice Macmillan.]
  Question again proposed.
  4.0 p.m.
  Mr. Harold Lever: I beg to move, at the end of the Question to add:
  'but, while welcoming the relaxation of earlier doctrinaire policies of Her Majesty's Government regarding the level of public expenditure, deplores the serious hardship already inflicted upon large sections of the people; and gives warning of the continuing danger to human and social needs and to the prospects for reducing unemployment if Conservative philosophy is accepted'.
  I should make it clear that with this Amendment we are seeking to widen the debate somewhat to more general issues rather than to register a vote, perhaps inappropriately, on a Motion which merely asks us to take note of the White Paper on Public Expenditure. I should also indicate that the way in which I shall seek to deal with the question of public expenditure is by attempting to relate it—not merely its mechanics but its policy—to the more central question of the economic welfare of the country. In particular, I want to speak for a while on the aspects of public expenditure which affect the stabilisation of the economy in support of an on-going economic advance, particularly in relation to the regions and the redistributive aspects of public expenditure—which, in less repulsive language, means the way in which we use public expenditure to recognise increasing moral, ethical and political obligations to the less fortunate members of society.
  I have to trouble the House for a moment or two in stating the premises on which I am discussing these questions. First, I believe that if we want a continuously advancing economy—one in
  1518
  which there is a good deal of investment for the future—the way in which we can get it is mainly by ensuring that there is a continuous level of demand sufficient to induce the confident expectation of a future profitable and sustained increase in demand. That is how we get the investment ingredient, and it is far more important than any of the skills and subtle manoeuvrings of the Treasury; in other words, we get it by getting demand up and keeping it up and ensuring that it never lags sufficiently to depress confidence.
  My other premise—because I shall be told, otherwise, of the balance of payments difficulties which stand between me and the economic advance that I advocate—is that the right route to prosperity and a healthy balance of payments lies in a true understanding of the management of parities rather than in the somewhat extraordinary measures taken from time to time over the last 25 years to deal with the balance of payments. Broadly speaking, the approach of Governments in the past has been, "Let us defend parity at the cost of diminishing employment", whereas any sane economic policy must always be based upon the premise that we want our resources fully employed and that, if necessary, parity must be adjusted to that condition.
  I say at once that this does not put me with the floating rate merchants who want to fluctuate from day to day or month to month. Fortunately, this is not the debate on international monetary affairs which is long overdue and to which I should be happy to make a contribution. I will not, therefore, go into detail, beyond saying that I hope that no one will think that I have resiled from my firm position on managed parities—but managed under the general principle that we do not defend a particular parity at the cost of under-employing the economy, but that we defend employment and the full use of our resources by an appropriate adjustment of parity. That is a different text, alas, from that which has prevailed since the war in this country.
  Having stated my premises, I must now come to the relationship in general terms of public expenditure to demand management. When after the war we saw the huge size of public expenditure and public investment, it was not surprising that many people's thoughts turned to the idea

  1519
  of using this vast expenditure as a tool of demand management in a counter-cyclical way, so that when things were slack we would speed up public expenditure on capital account and when things were perhaps under greater pressure and we needed to ease off we would slow up such programmes. That may be a happy solution when propounded in a seminar, but it is not very effective, unhappily, in real life. Many right hon. and hon. Members would like it to be used in this way. Certainly, past experience has taught me to believe that it is not a suitable method because, unfortunately, public investment, which is of a complex and large-scale character, requires a great deal of preparation before the work is done, and it needs also to be linked into an orderly framework at least as much as private expenditure.
  The idea that one can speed up road-building, school-building, electricity power station construction and the like in a significant way, disrupting the phased long-term or medium-term planning under which such programmes are undertaken, doing so usefully in support of counter-cyclical measures, has all the evidence against it. Therefore, one has to be rather careful because one may end up finding that the overwhelming bulk of one's public investment programmes are not suitable to be used in this way. Because one wrongly accepted this idea, one may end up doing marginal things which are not absolutely useful, have not been vetted carefully enough, have been rushed into the pipeline, and so on, and are, even after a delay, very often the wrong measures, providing in any case little practical speed-up in the timing.
  Mr. Eric S. Heffer: It is with great regret that I always, apparently, have to intervene in my right hon. Friend's speeches, but I do so only to raise points which to me are important. Would he not agree that there are many projects which have been vetted by local authorities, and for which plans are available, but which have been shelved because of past Government decisions not to allow the finance for them? Surely, in this sort of situation we could inject that sort of capital into the local authority programmes so that
  1520
  these plans could be taken off the shelf and work on them begun.
  Mr. Lever: I am inclined always to think, when my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) is about to interrupt, that he should be presumed guilty until proved innocent. On this occasion, he has proved himself innocent. I totally agree that many projects have been disrupted in this way—very often precisely because Governments have had this attractive idea that one should use public investment planning counter-cyclically. Of course, if one accepts that proposition it means that one stops some investment whenever the economy is over-heated. That is what has happened, and that is exactly what I do not want to happen.
  My hon. Friend must not construe what I am saying as suggesting that we do not need adequate public expenditure. I am saying the opposite. We should phase public expenditure accurately and sensibly on its merits. We should not believe that, with these complex and crucial programmes, we are able on the one hand to rush things forward to stop a depression and—even worse—on the other hand to arrest them in the way Governments have done in an attempt to counter overheating. On this occasion I acquit my hon. Friend of having made any criticism with which I could not agree, and if he will listen further to me I do not think he will find himself in any substantial disagreement with me.
  Mr. Heffer: I hope not.
  Mr. Lever: What I am proposing means that we should not have what we have had in the past—instability in public investment precisely because we have attempted somewhat hurriedly at different times to use it counter-cyclically. I think I am right in saying that the volatility of public investment is as great as that of private investment—it goes up and down as sharply as private investment does—so that we lost the real advantage that we might have had of public investment following a stable path if we had not been moved by the attractive theory of using it to seek a stabilising effect.
  That is what I should like to see, as I am sure my hon. Friend would. When we see this desirable public investment which

  1521
  has to be made—be it from Government, local authorities or nationalised industries—it is to the advantage of the economy, and a useful stabiliser, not if we jiggle about with it in a counter-cyclical way but if we set it up and get it on a stable path, and we have not done that in the past.
  I believe, however, that there is one advantage which public investment can have over private investment. Private investment comes as a secondary consequence of the pull of demand coupled with confidence. In the case of public investment, one is able to anticipate because one is not dependent on the reflexes of a profit-motivated system. One can, therefore, advance public investment not counter-cyclically but in advance of the demand because its estimation here is more possible.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Anthony Barber): I appreciate the points being made by the right hon. Gentleman, as I do his argument, but recently the Government have deliberately, rightly or wrongly, brought forward certain public investment programmes precisely because of the economic situation. I am not putting this to the right hon. Gentleman as a trick question. Is there any particular proposal which he has in mind which we should not have brought forward? These proposals were brought forward deliberately. But for the economic situation, they would not have been brought forward as they have been.
  Mr. Lever: I am talking about the general principle. It is possible to find small measures of public expenditure which can effectively be brought forward so as to make a ready and rapid impact on the kind of situation into which the Government have brought us. I accept that it is conceivable that some minor Government capital expenditures can be advanced in a way that will allow them to create employment at the relevant time, which is right now or in the next few weeks or months. If the right hon. Gentleman can claim that the advancing of any major public expenditure—in shipbuilding or anything of the kind—will provide employment in the next weeks and months, and that the project is worth while having, then my general remarks have to be qualified. I was merely stating the general proposition that the Government cannot say, "We have an electricity
  1522
  power programme. Let us get it moving in a counter rhythm to the cycles of the economy." They cannot say, "Let us carry out a lot of school-building when the economy is slack, and slow it down when the economy is busy." That is what I was trying to put to the right hon. Gentleman, and I hope he will accept that as being sound philosophy.
  When one comes to consider the other aspect of public expenditure—current public expenditure which directly affects demand, such as family allowances, pensions, and so on—there is here an ideal counter-cyclical weapon, an ideal instrument for action, because this creates demand immediately and surely and in a manner that can be quantified pretty readily even by the Treasury econometric department, with all its talent, which is forced to spend too much of its time probing into the unforeseeable future instead of into the knowable present. Here is the ideal counter-cyclical action.
  What is more, it is not only good economics but good morality, because it is a shameful reflection upon us that, on the one hand, we have large unused resources, and, on the other, we are not prepared to make a move forward at times of slackness to help the more unfortunate people in our land. Anybody who understands modern economics will know that in helping those people we are helping ourselves. When I heard the Chief Secretary opening the debate on behalf of the Government yesterday, I could not help thinking of his respected father when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer and then Prime Minister. I did not always agree with the right hon. Gentleman, as he was then, but he had very firm principles in this respect. He was conscious of the fact that it was a great shame on a nation to have idle resources instead of making use of them to help unfortunate people.
  Moreover, it is economic good sense in another way, and that is on the question of building confidence. I ask right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite to believe that confidence does not depend upon their looks or their speeches, or their beatings of their breasts. Confidence depends on the experience of business people, and if these public expenditure measures were used as a counter-cyclical instrument the Government could guarantee that we would never again come

  1523
  to the miserable situation in which we find ourselves today, because we would ensure that demand never diminished to a level at which we had 1 million unemployed and were threatened with more. That would never happen if the Government were to use the real counter-cyclical weapon of public expenditure on current account to improve family allowances, pensions, unemployment pay and the like.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: When the right hon. Gentleman urges the counter-cyclical use of an increase in pensions, family allowances, and so on, is it the corollary that those would be reduced again if there were an over-heating of the economy?
  Mr. Lever: No. It is a characteristic of the right hon. Gentleman's destructive pendantry that he should leap to that conclusion. I am saying that we have idle resources, and that we should bring them into action. If the economy gets over-heated, I do not say that the first priority is to draw back and become mean-spirited to the unemployed, to be cowardly and unjust to the old-age pensioners. There are ample areas of fat in the economy which can be touched before those. I want to use the resources that we have to the advantage of the community, to move forward demand by directing it to where it is most urgently needed and where the Government have the power most proximately to direct it. There is no corollary that it should be reduced when things are busy.
  If the Government want investment in the private sector, they should realise that nothing will encourage it more than the expectation of demand based upon the knowledge that as soon as demand flags the Government will march in and supplement it in the way that I have stated. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister and others constantly tell business people that they are missing tremendous investment opportunities. I can only tell the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends that business people do not regard them as the final authority of what is or is not a good investment opportunity. They rely upon their own experience of demand, and it is no use the Prime Minister telling industrialists that they must invest more when they cannot employ more than 55 per
  1524
  cent. to 60 per cent. of their plant. The Prime Minister tells business people that they can make a fortune if they invest and that there is a tremendous opportunity for them to do so. Business men hear what the Prime Minister says, and then look at the under-employment of their plant. The Prime Minister and his colleagues have allowed unemployment to rise to unprecedented heights, and using their own judgment on the facts as opposed to the oratory, business men fail to invest.
  Perhaps I may use an example which I used in another context 20 years ago. The Prime Minister is in the position of the lady who was unfortunate enough to have her husband come home when she was in the middle of an act of infidelity. When he reproached her, she leapt out of bed, turned on him and said, "I see that you do not love me any more. You believe the evidence of your own eyes rather than my assurances." The business people of this country believe the evidence of their own eyes, and no amount of assurances from the Prime Minister and his colleagues will affect their decision. If the Government want business men to invest, the way to achieve that is to give then adequate demand. If the Government want to show that they are an expansionist Government, it is not the most eloquent power of self-approval that will convince businessmen but their action in times like the present.
  Let me now try to relate those general principles to the experience of the last 18 months. By the time the Conservative Government came in we were approaching what I would think was the second phase of the Labour Government's economic planning; that is to say, our first phase was to restore order after the well-intentioned but incompetently managed reflation under the previous Government Which had left the country with low credit in the world, a very heavy balance of payments deficit and very real difficulties. If, perhaps like every previous Government, my own Government reacted to difficulties with something less than perfection at every step and turn that would not be remarkable, because no Government in those difficulties can be expected suddenly to get the matter right.
  At all events, we got phase 1 right. We got the balance of payments handsomely in surplus, and were then ready

  1525
  to seek to reflate the economy on a much stabler basis than was possible when we came into office. At this point it was clear that some stimulation would be needed some time in the summer of 1970. Unhappily, the Government, the Treasury and even the T.U.C. had been misled into believing that the substantial wage increases which were occurring at that time were an adequate reflator. Even the T.U.C. believed that. The T.U.C. said, "If the Government are not going to reflate the economy we will do it for them." That was said by its spokesman at one point.
  What misled them was that they believed that these rapid wage increases would add more effectively to demand than, in fact, they did. They had underestimated the speed at which price increases would follow wage increases, having regard to the need to build up the profits of companies and the like. I am not blaming the companies concerned. It was inevitable and foreseeable. Indeed, we warned about this. If it is not immodest of me to say so, I continued to give the Conservative Government the benefit of my advice in various newspaper articles throughout the summer of 1970, saying that the Treasury Estimates would prove wrong. They were wrong in expecting that there was enough demand in the pipeline. I am clearly on record about this, as are many of my colleagues. We believed that the country would stagnate unless there was immediate stimulation. But these warnings went unheeded.
  What did the Government do? They brought in their infamous mini-Budget which cut expenditure. It cut expenditure on school meals, milk, museums, prescription charges and dental treatment. Investment grants were threatened, and there were threats of further cuts in expenditure in relation to housing, envisaging increased rents, under some Tory doctrine or other which seemed to them very relevant to the economic situation. So at a time when the country needed stimulation of demand, particularly from the public sector, this Government cut demand as if to say, even though, clearly, demand was flagging, that if only the public would realise the true cost of having a dental filling the economy would move in a much more impressive rhythm. This was the philosophy behind these
  1526
  extraordinary actions on the part of the Government.
  The Government promised tax concessions. If I take their mini-Budget with their maxi-Budget, what they did was to decide that they wanted to make some reflationary gesture of over £500 million, and they gave tax concessions which were concentrated lopsidedly on selective employment tax, corporation tax and income tax. The big problem here is that nobody knows what is the reflationary effect of reducing selective employment tax; and I doubt whether right hon. Gentlemen either knew at that time, or are any better informed now by their experts, about the reflationary extent of the reduction of selective employment tax or how long it will take before that effect, whatever it may be, will be felt in the economy. The same thing is true to some extenet of corporation tax and income tax. When an income tax cut is given to better-off members of the community, nobody knows how much of that will be saved and how much will be spent. Although many of the recipients—and voters—of the Conservative party were grateful, they do not show that they have any great confidence in their Government's ability to produce a very prosperous economy; so, many of them save because they are nervous.
  Nor could the effect of a cut in corporation tax be known without knowing what would be happening in other respects to reflate demand. The Government took the wrong measures, which were inadequate in amount because, on the best expectation of their measures, that would still leave a continuation of the 800,000 unemployed that we had at the end of 1971 and, indeed, would slightly add to the number. I was very tempted—and refrained only because of my personal regard and respect for the Minister of State—to bring with me and read to the House the transcript of a wireless discussion that we had at the time of the Budget when I said that the meaning of the Government's budget was that on the best expectations we would have at least 800,000 unemployed throughout the fiscal year, and very likely more, and that if things went awry we could have seriously over 1 million. That was on the best expectations of the Government because they budgeted on a 3 per cent. growth in the economy when we all knew that the

  1527
  productivity increase in the economy was at least 3 per cent. and, therefore, even if their expectations had been gratified, we would still have had over 800,000 unemployed.
  The Government were, in effect, playing with fire, and the people of this country have been burned as a result. What I have to ask the House to think about is why the Government chose to reflate in the spring of this year by the tax concessions which I have discussed rather than by the sure, calculable, immediate impact of public expenditure to help the poor families, especially those suffering child poverty, by family allowances and action of that kind? The answer is that they were so intoxicated by their own political doctrine that they chose to abolish S.E.T. and to reduce direct taxation and corporation tax at a time when what was wanted was the certitude of the immediate impact of the direct expenditure relief which I have mentioned.
  I say at once, since this is not a Budget debate, that I will assume for the purpose of debate that everything that the Government did ought to have been done. But why, on any calculations, should it have been done in April of this year? Why in April of this year was it necessary to redeem the S.E.T. pledge at the cost of other reflationary measures?—because we do not know the effect of S.E.T. If I believed in the abolition of S.E.T. I would not have supported its part-abolition in the spring of this year as a reflationary measure but would have deferred it to some later date—even if I had believed in it. The same goes for investment grants. Assuming that there is a reputable case for saying that investment grants should be replaced by tax allowances, I would say: but not at the time when the economy needs stimulation. If I were going to make the changeover, the time I would have chosen, if I had thought it desirable, would have been when the economy was somewhat overheated. In April of last year that was the last kind of thing that should have been done. The result is that we have high unemployment followed by panic measures which make complete nonsense of the Government's claim that they are able to reduce the aggregate of public expenditure, because by putting tax reliefs into the pipeline, with an incalculable
  1528
  effect on the economy in terms of the amount and the time they will take to become effective they have turned what is always a difficult problem of demand management into a baffling problem. They cannot be very sure whether they should put more in now, because they have mistimed their reflation and misused the instruments available for reflation. The result is that they have a very difficult problem.
  I turn to the question of what the Government might do in the situation which they have brought upon themselves. I believe that the immediate further reflation, at any rate in the next month or two, should be concentrated on the regions and on the areas of high unemployment, because these are the areas where the greatest damage has been done by the Government's policies. The "lame duck" philosophy means the weakest to the wall. Strictly speaking, the regions and the areas of high unemployment are the weakest.
  The very preaching of such philosophy damages economic prospects in the regions in all sorts of subtle ways. People have less confidence in investing. People have less confidence in giving credit if they believe that the country is being run by a Government which believe that the weakest should go to the wall. That is entirely inconsistent with the philosophy that we have preached—that the regions should be supported and helped by the more prosperous areas.
  I will not go into the details, but the Government have a lamentable record of negative action in relation to regional employment. I have come to the conclusion that if they wish now to repair the damage that they have done they must concentrate their reflationary efforts, and on a very large scale, on the regions of high unemployment.
  The time has come to set up a vast development bank for the regions. We should think in terms of a very large sum of money. Initially, £1,000 million would not be too great a sum to put into the hands of a new vast development bank to enable it to finance development and employment in the regions and in the areas of high unemployment such as Lancashire and Yorkshire.
  Why do I want such an instrument? Briefly put, if we could think of the

  1529
  areas that I am referring to as if they could be aggregated into a country, probably they would want to have a currency with a different parity from our own to get their economies going. We cannot do that. I will not go into the technical reasons against it. First, it is not even one group or part of the country, and there are other reasons connected with our operation of currency.
  Therefore, what we should seek to do is to set up a vast development bank which should be put in possession of ample funds to be deployed in the areas of high unemployment at cheaper rates than prevail elsewhere and on special terms which would give entrepreneurs using those funds a tremendous incentive to set up business and develop in those areas. One could even think in terms of zero interest in some cases. One could think in terms of medium-term and long-term loans. The cost would not be great, certainly not a fraction of the cost of the economic damage done to the country as a whole, as well as to the regions, by the absence of an adequate policy.
  The advantage of this idea is that it would be more comprehensive than anything that has been done so far. It would leap over boundaries; that is, there would not be the problem of the grey areas, the near-grey areas, the black areas, and the super-black areas. There would be a flexibility in dealing with projects which would be far greater than anything which has been established so far. Such a body should be empowered to finance every project calculated to stimulate and help the areas of of high unemployment, including amenity projects, whether they be restaurants or playhouses or help to local authorities with cheaper loans. All this would help.
  It is astonishing that at this time the newspapers should carry the headline
  "London to be given a face lift".
  Any expenditure that we are inclined to make at present should be concentrated in the areas or high unemployment because giving them a face lift is part of the whole process of rehabilitating them. We could do this by giving what I would call a financial infrastructure specially favourable to those areas.
  1530
  It is strange that in Scotland, for example, traditionally one pays more to borrow money than in the more prosperous areas of the country. From an economic standpoint, less should be paid to borrow money in these areas. All the natural reflexes of business, however, are to raise the cost of borrowing in the areas of high unemployment because these are riskier areas than other parts of the country.
  In broad principle, I approve of what the Bank of England has done to free banking from artificial restraint, but in a free-for-all, when they are competing for the country's available credit cash, the development areas will have a very thin time, unless the Government set up a counter-measure or counterbalance of this kind which consciously and deliberately sets out to favour those areas.
  The right institution to operate such a development bank would be the Bank of England. The development bank should be a department of the Bank of England so that it would tie in with the country's general economic and financial management.
  That is what I have to say today in dealing with public expenditure in relation to the general economic problem. To sum up, we look back upon the Government and we see that they have been an economic failure.
  I know that many hon. Members—some on this side—are apt to say that all this high unemployment does not matter and that before the next General Election there will be a reflation and that the people will be happy and will vote the Conservative Party in. Or they may vote us in. But I am not concerned with that today.
  I am concerned about sane, constructive economic policies. This year's stagnation and suffering from unemployment will never be undone. The misery and the upset have occurred and cannot be unwritten. I want to see that it does not continue.
  I hope that my hon. Friends will not be distressed if in conclusion I administer what is now an overdue public rebuke to some of them. Some of my hon. Friends have been very unfair to this Government. They have watched the mounting unemployment, the total failure of the

  1531
  Government's economic policies, the absurd, near illiterate, twaddle which justifies the assaults on meals in schools, milk for working people's children, and the like, and they have come to the conclusion that they are dealing with a lot of wicked men and believe that what has happened corresponds to the Government's intentions.
  That is very unjust, and it is completely against the weight of the evidence. There is overwhelming evidence not of malignity but of gross incompetence, total muddleheadedness, and a naive intoxication with out-of-date Conservative Party doctrines. That is the real charge that I make against the Government. That is the real complaint that I make. That is the fair charge that I make. It is a very simple one; namely, that the Government are not up to the job.
  4.38 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Terence Higgins): The right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) is always full of original ideas, but the speech that we just heard from him was surely one of the most remarkable which can ever have been made from the Opposition Front Bench. The right hon. Gentleman appeared to think that the measures which my right hon. Friend has announced for increasing public expenditure in such a way that it will help to ameliorate the problem of unemployment should not be supported. I am not surprised that the right hon. Gentleman got some reaction—
  Mr. Harold Lever: As I explicitly said the opposite, the hon. Gentleman should not attempt to make a debating point. I told the Chancellor that if a particular measure could give employment swiftly, even though it was a capital account measure, I should welcome it. But this could not affect my general proposition that the capital programme as a whole cannot be used in a counter-cyclical way. The hon. Gentleman may save his breath, because I tell him frankly what I told his right hon. Friend a moment ago, that if he has a specific measure that brings employment to parts of the country that need it in the desperate situation the Chancellor has brought about, I will welcome it. The
  1532
  hon. Gentleman must not distort what I said.
  Mr. Higgins: I do not think that when we look at the OFFICIAL REPORT tomorrow it will be found that I distorted what the right hon. Gentleman said. He did not make it clear which, if any, of my right hon. Friend's measures he did or did not support. If he is to take the attitude that I believe he took in his speech, I do not think that he will receive much support from his right hon. and hon. Friends.
  The second remarkable feature of the right hon. Gentleman's speech emerged in response to the intervention of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), when the right hon. Gentleman said that we should be spending more and more on social services. We are already spending a great deal, and have increased our expenditure in many respects. In answer to the question, "What happens if you find that you have excess demand?", the right hon. Gentleman says that he would not cut back on those items. He would then be in precisely the situation of excess demand in which there is most danger of creating inflation, and he did not make it in the least bit clear what he would cut back. What will be very clear to my hon. Friends is that we should be likely to be back in a situation of ever-increasing taxation to make up for the kind of mis-planning the right hon. Gentleman is proposing.
  This is the first time in our debates on the annual public expenditure White Papers that an Amendment has been moved. Therefore, we should pay it the compliment of considering precisely what it says, though the right hon. Gentleman did not deal very much with either the White Paper or with the specific words of the Amendment.
  I shall take each of the Amendment's four points in turn. First, it welcomes the relaxation of the earlier doctrinaire policies, as it calls them, of Her Majesty's Government
  "regarding the level of public expenditure …".
  It is true that the right hon. Gentleman is always prepared to find a stigma to

  1533
  beat a dogma, but on this occasion he failed to do so, because apart from its being a term of abuse it is far from clear what the expression "doctrinaire" in the Amendment means. If it is meant to relate to what has been said with full authority on behalf of my right hon. and hon. Friends it is as well to look at the manifesto on which the country elected us. Our doctrinaire policy, if that is how the right hon. Gentleman wishes to describe it, in this sense was that we would cut out unnecessary Government spending. Are we supposed to have relaxed on that and to be incurring unnecessary Government spending? If so, the right hon. Gentleman should have pointed out precisely what we should have cut, and he failed to do that.
  The other side of our so-called doctrinaire policy was that
  "We will give priority to those most in need.…"
  Are we supposed to have relaxed on that? Does the right hon. Gentleman wish us to do so? If so, we should make it quite clear that we do not propose to relax on a policy which we believe to be both justified and humane and to be an essential part of our overall strategy if we are to concentrate resources where they are likely to be of the greatest use.
  In the years before we took office, when the right hon. Gentleman was in a position to influence events, we saw first the years of indiscriminate spending and indiscriminate subsidy, and then, after devaluation, which was when that policy ended, we saw a period of restraint on all spending, public and private alike—what we might call a period of indiscriminate restraint. With all respect to the historians or economists, there cannot be any proof of these matters, but the common sense view is that there would not have been anywhere near as bad a surge in prices and incomes in the winter of 1969–70 but for the history first of vast expansion and then of very severe cut-backs.
  Whatever the cause, the subsequent problem was very difficult. It is our determination to reshape public expenditure policies in the medium term to ensure that the capacity of the economy to carry its necessary obligations will grow and improve.
  1534
  Moreover, by the means we adopted, we were able last year to start towards our other objective of giving help to those most in need. We began last year with a new programme—about £28 million over the four years to 1974–75—to replace old primary schools. There was new provision of £110 million for developing those parts of the health and welfare services in greatest need, particularly for the elderly and mentally-handicapped. There were improved benefits for women widowed between the ages of 40 and 50, family income supplements for low wage-earners with dependent children, attendance allowances for the severely disabled and—I know that the right hon. Gentleman who is to wind up for the Opposition will appreciate this because he knows my personal interest in it—pensions for the over-80s. Those changes are all in direct contradiction to the terms of the Amendment.
  From this beginning we have now gone further in the same direction, as the White Paper shows. There is still more for the schools; still more for the hospitals and replacement of old institutions and homes for old people; more for the over-80s. and the chronic sick; and an improvement of some 3 per cent. in real terms in the purchasing power of retirement pensions generally compared with their level at the 1969 up-rating.
  So much for the relaxation of our so-called doctrinaire policies. What I have said is an apt comment also on those hon. Members opposite who wish to argue that our policies are inflicting hardship on large sections of the community.
  Mr. Harold Lever: What about the unemployed?
  Mr. Higgins: We recognise that there is considerable waste and hardship caused by unemployment. Neither my right hon. Friend the Chancellor nor my hon. Friends would wish to deny that. My right hon. Friend spoke on 23rd November of
  "… the present unacceptable level of unemployment."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd November, 1971; Vol. 826, c. 1153.]
  That is the view throughout the House. To seek to attribute the present scale of unemployment to the public expenditure policies introduced last year, which the Opposition wish to criticise, would be a diagnosis of the cause of a grave social evil so superficial as to do no service

  1535
  to those afflicted by it. It is presumptuous of the Opposition to lecture us about
  "… the continuing danger to human and social needs …"
  In many of the areas I have mentioned we have made it our business to do better than the right hon. Gentleman's Administration did in meeting the needs of those who really require help, and we are doing so.
  Mr. Heffer: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in making representations to the Government the Trades Union Congress has pointed out that over half those unemployed are not receiving unemployment benefits and are therefore on supplementary or other benefits not up to the level of unemployment benefit? Is not that inflicting great hardship on a mass of people who are suffering unemployment through no fault of their own, unemployment which has been contributed to by the Government's policies?
  Mr. Higgins: The facts of this matter are well known, both as to the action taken by the previous Government and that taken by the present Government.
  I should like to pursue the point about unemployment, because that comes up in the fourth and last part of the Amendment, which claims to give a warning about the prospects for reducing unemployment if Conservative philosophy is accepted. I am not clear whether the Opposition are saying that had they been re-elected there would have been a total reversal of their fiscal and monetary policies, and more besides. The right hon. Gentleman said that he was waiting for the second phase of the Labour Government's policy. We waited a very long time. It is clear that if one wants to abandon totally the policies of a Government there is a great deal to be said for changing the Government, because it is likely that the incoming Government will pursue new policies with more enthusiasm than the previous one. I am not going to catalogue yet again the changes in fiscal and monetary policy announced in the Chamber over the last 12 months or so. But as regards the expenditure programmes which are the subject of this debate, I would simply like to make three points. First, the measures embodied in the White Paper
  1536
  and in the Chancellor's further statement of 23rd November are directed to specific places where unemployment is high or the threat to employment is immediate and severe.
  Second, they take the form of expenditures involving directly a substantial requirement for labour. Thirdly, they are not permanent or long-term additions; they represent commitments for a limited period ahead so that, as the country moves out of recession, public expenditure will not be committed at such a level that taxation has to be increased and the brake applied. This is the fundamental difference between the extraordinary proposals of the right hon. Member for Cheetham and the proposals of my right hon. Friend. How far one should go in undertaking public expenditure of this counter-cyclical kind is a matter of judgment.
  At the present time, I notice the Financial Times of 26th November asking the question whether, in the coming months, the measures we have taken will prove to be enough; and Mr. Wynne Godley in The Times yesterday argued, though he did not press it so hard today, that public expenditure measures are already so large that we may be over-committed as they work through—more slowly, he suggests, than we expect.
  One can usually take comfort from being accused of doing both too much and too little. It suggests that one is likely to be on the right course. My conclusion from these comments, coming from authoritative quarters as they do, is that, given the seriousness of the problem of unemployment there is no cause for us either to repent of having done what we have done to increase the public expenditure programme in the short term, or to reproach ourselves for not having added still more. But I do stress what was clearly set out in the White Paper, paragraph 9, that
  "Policies will continue to be reviewed, for the better direction of expenditure to needs, including those of the areas where unemployment is high, as well as those of more general kinds; and changes in the programmes may yet be made for those reasons, producing net increases or decreases in the totals, if in the developing situation the Government judge them to be required."
  Taking all these facts into account, it seems clear to me that every single assertion in the Opposition Amendment is

  1537
  totally unjustified. No doubt, when the debate concludes this evening, right hon. and hon. Members opposite will feel bound to vote for it. But I have no doubt that when they look back over the years in say three or four or five years' time they will see how wrong they were and how little their warnings were justified.
  One of the themes running through the debate yesterday was that one ought to divide technical discussion on the White Paper from political discussion on priorities. To some extent this is what we are doing; yesterday, the tone was more analytical, today we have a highly controversial Amendment on the Order Paper. But I would like to take issue with the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Joel Barnett) who, winding up last night, seemed to me to draw too hard a line between the facts and analysis—the conceptual framework of the White Paper—and political discussion. It is only if one has a good conceptual framework and adequate facts, that the political discussion can be more than a party charade.
  I do not take the pessimistic view expressed by some hon. Members yesterday that hon. Members are deterred from participation in the debate because the jargon is incomprehensible or the technique too difficult to master. The fact is that, following the improvements we have made, it does take a little effort to comprehend the conceptual basis of the White Paper. This is largely because the improvements are unfamiliar, and perhaps I may spend a few moments spelling them out. I stress that we have not only met virtually almost all the points for improvement made by the expenditure Committee, but we have also, on our own initiative, and as a result of very fine work by officials, gone a great deal further.
  The Green Paper on public expenditure back in 1969 proposed a way of presenting public expenditure in which projections of receipts would be set alongside the forward estimates of expenditure to the second year beyond the White Paper year. Incidentally, that was rather a short period; the measurement to which I am referring in the new White Paper covers the full five-year span.
  The Green Paper gave three reasons for its proposal. First, there were times
  1538
  when payments may be made from public funds in place of tax allowances or vice versa so that there is a switch in the programmes. Moves to investment grants are an example. One needs to be able to see what is exchanged for what in such situations. Second, there are some expenditures with directly associated receipts, such as the National Insurance scheme of benefits and contributions, both depending on the same policy system. Third, there are cases where public expenditures produce their own flow-backs in tax, so that the demand effects of the expenditure are offset to a greater or lesser extent by the tax.
  Our approach is to deal with each of these points in turn. Thus, in last year's White Paper, as we were then substituting investment allowances and changes in corporation tax for investment grants, we showed the effects on expenditure and receipts alongside each other. As regards the receipts directly associated with particular systems of expenditure policy, we have embodied in the present White Paper a series of tables—one for each year covered—showing for each programme the directly related receipts and distinguishing charges which are normally netted out of expenditure—for example, charges for school meals—from other forms of receipts which are not normally netted out—for example, the contributions under the National Insurance system. A potentially complicated picture is thus presented in a simple form. Our only major problem, in constructing this table, has arisen on nationalised industries' capital expenditure where we have found that the estimate of the gross trading surpluses of the nationalised industries is, at this stage, too problematical to justify publishing them.
  This leaves the question of how to show the effects of the flow-backs of tax from public expenditures. There is no particular interest in the flow-backs themselves. The interest lies in the fact that as tax flows back, the net effect of the expenditure on demand is offset accordingly. The same effect is produced where public expenditure goes into personal savings instead of getting spent.
  The Green Paper envisaged setting out projections of revenue alongside projections of expenditure, so that the revenue figures would incorporate, though they would not distinguish, the amounts of

  1539
  revenue flowing back from the expenditure. This, unfortunately, is a cumbersome arrangement. In the first place there are great difficulties in making the revenue projections themselves, and they cannot represent estimates of the effects of forward fiscal policy over the period in the same way as the expenditure represents the effects of forward expenditure policy. Also, since they do not distinguish the amounts of revenue that flow back from the expenditure, they provide no information on this point unless numerous variants of the tables are given in which particular changes of expenditure are isolated and nothing else is changed. The consequential effect on the revenue can then be detected. But as this was never done, the procedure never served its original purpose.
  In the new White Paper we have tried to overcome these very serious difficulties, and produced a much simpler and more direct presentation of the point by providing a measurement of the rate of increase in net demand on output which is implied in the public expenditure programme, and this, when the relative price effect is taken into account, provides the basis for measuring the increase in real cost to the economy. The calculations on which this measurement is based are directed to taking account specifically of the extent to which there is a tax flow-back from each form of expenditure, and the extent to which the expenditure remains suspended in savings
  The technique is elaborate, and therefore, at the same time as we have introduced this form of measurement into the White Paper, we have also provided a technical paper for study by the general sub-Committee of the Expenditure Committee. The basic concept is not difficult to understand. It is essentially what are the costs of the resources in the economy. As far as political debate is concerned it provides figures which are far more relevant than any produced before. Indeed the figures are more useful than those which were asked for by the Expenditure Committee. I thought it was worthwhile spending a moment or two spelling that out but as I say it provides us now with a much better measure than we had. When hon. and right hon. Gentlemen have had the opportunity of assimilating what is set out in about two
  1540
  or three pages at the beginning of the White Paper it will be apparent that this is indeed a major advance.
  Mr. Neil Marten: One improvement in the layout some of us would like to see is this. In the previous White Paper there were provisional out-turn figures for the years 1969–70. This White Paper does not give the actual out-turn and it would have been nice to compare the provisional out-turn with the actual out-turn. Is there any reason why that should not be done in future?
  Mr. Higgins: I hesitate to give my hon. Friend an answer off the cuff, but I am sure my hon. Friend the Chief Secretary will be happy to answer that with reference to the specific table when he comes to reply.
  There is therefore a link between the conceptual basis of the White Paper and the political debate which came out clearly in a number of speeches by hon. Members yesterday—including that made by the hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt)—who made contributions on specific political priorities. It is much better that we should judge particular priorities in this context with a better conceptual basis than we have ever had.
  I turn to two quite specific and important questions asked in the debate yesterday. The first is: why is the total figure for the annual average increase in public sector demand on output 1971–72 1975–76, shown in table 3·1 on page 66 as 2·5 per cent. in volume terms and 3·2 per cent. in cost terms? How have those figures been arrived at and why have they been selected? The second question is: what is our overall strategy on public expenditure? Let me turn first to the overall size of the public expenditure programme and the changes in it. The hon. and learned Member for Lincoln (Mr. Taverne) and the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton asked yesterday why the rate of growth of public expenditure had been settled at that of the White Paper. That rate over the period from this year to 1975–76 is an average annual rate of increase in real cost to the economy of about 3·2 per cent. That is the figure given in paragraph 7 on page 6. For that reason it is necessary to read the next paragraph which says:
  "Such a rate is close to that of the productive potential of the economy over the past

  1541
  decade or more, which has been around 3 per cent. a year."
  There is no obvious reason for thinking it is unreasonable to go for a rate as high as 3 per cent.
  What are the grounds for going for a little more than 3 per cent.? This is apparent if we read on because the White Paper then says:
  "But a projection of this trend will understate the future growth in resources."
  This is for two reasons:
  "First, there is the increase in output that will result from taking up of spare capacity. Second, there is the likelihood that the recent improvements in productivity will be found to have made some permanent addition to the level of productive potential."
  This in the present context is very difficult territory not least because we are now, have been for some two years and are likely to be for another two years, in an unprecedented situation. Mere extrapolation of past trends is likely to be misleading. We have not previously had a period of cost inflation without excess demand anywhere near as severe as that which we have suffered recently. This, as my right hon. Friends have pointed out on other occasions has led to a substantial shake-out of labour and higher unemployment. We have also seen an increase in productivity which is higher than past experience would have suggested, given the relatively modest rate of increase in output. It would be extreme to infer that productivity has gone on to a significantly faster long-term rate than in the past and it would be foolhardy to make strategic decisions on public expenditure on such a slender basis.
  It would be equally extreme to assume that all of the gains over the last year or so will vanish when the present slack in the economy is taken up. It is a familiar observation that at the beginning of the upswing output per man tends to rise. Moreover we need to note that because of the shake-out of labour it is likely that as the upswing continues labour will in future be employed in uses where it is more productive than before—there is more potential productive potential! That being so, there is no firm basis of experience on which to make a forecast but a reasonable view would be that recent gains would be at least partly retained, that is that the level of output corresponding to a given pressure of demand will remain higher than a
  1542
  straight projection of past trends would suggest. This makes it reasonable to plan for a somewhat higher level of public expenditure, even in the longer term, than seemed right some time ago.
  We again turn to the basic question asked by the hon. and learned Member for Lincoln and the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton. We must ask the question: if we can have a bit more than 3 per cent.—and this is relevant to the suggestion of the right hon. Member for Cheetham—why not a lot more? Again it is right to quote from the White Paper which says:
  "The Government however, whilst allowing the absolute level of the public expenditure programmes to increase throughout the period, have held the rate of growth of their real cost to the economy in that period close to 3 per cent. so as not to produce excessive pressure on demand when resources are fully employed again."
  As my hon. Friend made clear yesterday if resources increase over the five years more than the 3·2 per cent. a year on average we shall have a choice of whether to step up the programmes, to increase standards or reduce taxation or to do a mixture of both.
  Mr. J. Bruce-Gardyne: I am listening carefully to what my hon. Friend is saying. Is it not a fact that the last year we made it clear that it was one of our objectives to ensure that the proportion of our total resources pre-empted by public sector should be diminished after the substantial increase of previous years? Is he satisfied that what he has been saying is consistent with that?
  Mr. Higgins: I shall seek to show in a moment that it is important to take account of the pattern of expenditure over the period. This is the answer to his question. If he looks at the long-term effects, leaving aside the present immediate situation confronting us, I do not think he will find that there is any inconsistency between the policy we put forward last year and the policy we are now adopting. I would prefer to put that summary more in the overall context of what I am about to say.
  Mr. Austen Albu: Does the hon. Gentleman really believe that in the years ahead it will be possible to maintain full employment without maintaining roughly at least the present level of the public sector?
  Mr. Higgins: It depends on a vast variety of variables, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware. I want to go back to the point my hon. Friend has raised because it is crucial. Before doing so I return to what I was saying earlier and say that we are determined not to do what hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite did when they were in Government, which was to count on a far greater increase of output in advance. We believe that our overall fiscal and monetary policies, designed to increase incentives to work harder and to invest more will produce a faster rate of sustainable growth. But our public expenditure programme must in total be both adequate and prudent. I believe that the figures in table 3·1 on page 66 meet these two essential criteria.
  This brings me to the question of the overall strategy for public expenditure. This needs to be directed to the achievement of a high and sustainable rate of economic growth—and I stress the word "sustainable"—an amelioration of inflation and a higher level of employment. It is therefore designed first of all—and this is part of the answer to my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne)—to make the public sector contribute as much as possible to the provision of jobs while unemployment is high. We still are not in the clear here although I do not know where the right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham stands on this.
  Secondly, the overall strategy must keep the level of public expenditure in the medium term—1974–75–1975–76—rising at a rate which will not produce excessive pressure on demand when the nation's resources are fully employed and therefore not exacerbate inflation or jeopardise our taxation policies in the medium term. The White Paper shows a distinctive pattern through time reflected most clearly in the table on page 12 which compares the position described in last year's White Paper with this year's White Paper. The annual percentage increase in cost terms now shows a more pronounced inflection. The percentage figures are higher in the earlier years, 1971–72–1972–73 than they were and lower in 1973–74–1974–75. This is in no way inconsistent with our earlier policies, as hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite appear to assert. It is a
  1544
  sensitive response to the present situation specifically designed to avert the dangers which the right hon. Gentleman says that we are ignoring.
  One of the problems in this area is to get over to the public what is really quite a simple message. I therefore make no apology for repeating the figures given twice from the Front Bench yesterday which the right hon. Member for Cheetham apparently regards as minor or marginal. In addition to the massive fiscal and other measures taken to stimulate employment, we have made important short-term increases in public expenditure. These are what the right hon. Gentleman describes as marginal or minor.
  There are four special programmes beginning this year but concentrated mainly on 1972–73 and 1973–74, though they extend to some extent later on. These increases are designed to provide employment as quickly as possible where the problems of unemployment are greatest.
  First, there are new works in development and intermediate areas, and measures to improve the infrastructure, totalling £164 million—apparently regarded by the right hon. Gentleman as minor—
  Mr. Harold Lever: The hon. Gentleman must not go on flogging this dead mouse. I urged that the Government should have done much earlier much more in the way of public expenditure to create employment. I said that the difficulty of using capital expenditure to meet the present situation was that, amongst other things, it took too long to take effect. What I regard as marginal and minor is the impact of this on the immediate unemployment situation with which we are faced. If the hon. Gentleman cannot understand that, I hope that he will give way to me again until I finally get over the simple point that the Government have reflated too late with the wrong means and, as far as public expenditure is concerned, they should have done it earlier and in a different area. I welcome the present measures, if on examination they will give extra employment, but at no point do I believe that they will make a significant contribution to unemployment within the next few months. What the hon. Gentleman has just said has confirmed every word of my criticism.
  Mr. Higgins: The right hon. Gentleman has now made three fairly lengthy interventions, as will be seen from the record tomorrow. At the risk of seeming to refurbish my right-wing image, I must say to the right hon. Gentleman that if he produces dead mice he must expect them to be flogged. The point I am seeking to make is that none of these measures is either minor or marginal.
  Second, there are house improvement grants totalling £53 million. Third, there is acceleration of naval shipbuilding which, as my hon. Friend pointed out yesterday, will create jobs in shipyards in areas which suffer severely from unemployment. This totals £80 million. Fourth, there are the measures announced by my right hon. Friend on 23rd November, the acceleration of capital programmes and road programmes, a further £163 million. So there is a very substantial amount—
  Mr. Heffer rose—
  Mr. Higgins: I have given way a great deal and I want to come to a conclusion.
  Mr. Heffer: There are very few speakers—
  Mr. Higgins: Many of my hon. Friends are waiting to speak. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to make a speech later, and there are not many people waiting to speak, he will no doubt have an opportunity to do so.
  There is a substantial amount of public expenditure, and this will stimulate the economy over the current year and the next two years to provide or maintain employment in specific situations over and above the other assistance to intermediate and development areas. Resources will, therefore, be used which would otherwise remain idle.
  The effect is confined in time, as my hon. Friend the Chief Secretary said yesterday, to the earlier part of the White Paper period and, where there is a spillover into later years, confined in space to areas where demand is likely to rise more slowly.
  Mr. Tam Dalyeil rose—
  Mr. Higgins: I am coming to a conclusion. It is indeed remarkable, given the weight of our overall fiscal policies
  1546
  and our public expenditure programmes, that business confidence and investment have not responded more rapidly, but I have no doubt that we shall see an increasing positive response in the coming months.
  In this context it is important to stress the longer-term aspects of our overall public expenditure strategy. Given the scars which they still bear from the period of Socialist Government following devaluation, it would be surprising not to find that many businessmen fear that a period of expansion or "go" is likely to be followed by a period of "stop". I therefore stress as strongly as I can that our objective is sustainable economic growth, and our public expenditure programme is specifically designed to ensure that demand towards the end of the period covered by the White Paper is not excessive and that industry can, therefore, invest with confidence. This is in contrast with the period under the previous Administration when public expenditure was completely out of control and ever-increasing taxation failed to offset it. The taxation then had to be continued despite cut-backs in expenditure programmes at a later period.
  Public expenditure is now under control, and the White Paper makes clear that it is being used as a vital component of economic policy to serve both our short-term needs and our long-term objectives. The Amendment which has been put forward by the Opposition, as I have already demonstrated, is wrong in every respect, and overall it is divorced from the reality of the situation. I therefore call on my right hon. and hon. Friends to reject it and to endorse the constructive approach which is set out in this White Paper.
  5.16 p.m.
  Mr. William Rodgers: I do not intend to follow the Minister of State into any of the imaginative by-ways he chose this afternoon. If I found his speech at times incomprehensible, I am led to believe that the fault was in me and not in him, and that on reading HANSARD tomorrow my shortcoming will be remedied.
  I want to say a word about some of the matters which we discussed yesterday. In so doing I am aware that I shall be contributing to an unsatisfactory

  1547
  debate. As hon. Members have said, our debate is conducted on two levels. On the one hand we are discussing the control of the executive by Parliament, and whether the new methods which we have developed are a step in the right direction and how far they fall short and, on the other hand, we are discussing the larger question of strategy.
  I have some sympathy with my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) who said that he hoped this debate would take on a wider flavour and that it would have been used to discuss some of the questions which are raised by choice in public expenditure. The answer to him and to my hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon), who also commented on the unsatisfactory nature of the occasion, is that we are trying to find a new way of controlling public expenditure and, until we are sure that we have the procedures right, it is inevitable that this debate, being on two levels, will be to that extent unsatisfactory.
  I am not at all satisfied that we yet have the procedure right, and this debate is at the wrong time. I appreciate that the Leader of the House may have felt that some undertakings had been given, but equally I am sure that the House would have been prepared to forgo them. Had this debate been held in January or February, the Expenditure Committee would have been able to prepare for it in a way that would have made the debate more meaningful. A debate now is certainly to the Government's advantage because it is bound for this reason to be more cursory than it should be.
  I hope that, if not today, within a short time, the Leader of the House will give a clear and unequivocal undertaking that any future debate on a similar White Paper will follow only after the Expenditure Committee has been able to conduct its own full inquiry. It suits the Government's convenience that we should proceed in this way, but I cannot believe that it suits the convenience and preference of the House.
  I said that it was not clear to me that we had yet made sufficient progress towards better parliamentary control. My hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne yesterday mentioned the more sophisticated instruments of government at our disposal and commented upon the
  1548
  implications of the Fulton Report. He may be right, but there are other factors which are militating against effective parliamentary control.
  The existence of huge conglomerate Departments makes it far more difficult to cross-examine and to pin down a Department where the debate is conducted behind closed doors. In the past the debate on the Executive became an open debate in Parliament as well. Parliament has greatly under-estimated the damage done to political control by the creation of conglomerate Departments. There is no evidence yet that the Departments themselves have found a way of managing their affairs.
  On 26th April last the House discussed and passed within a very short time, with a very few dissident voices—though I am glad my voice was one—a dissolution order for the Ministry of Aviation Supply. In the ten sitting weeks before that debate, 78 Oral Questions were answered by the Minister of Aviation Supply. In an equivalent 10-week period afterwards, only 18 questions were answered on matters concerning civil aviation supply policy. I appreciate that unusual factors may have operated earlier this year. I also appreciate that when the House appears to be dealing with as many Questions as before, the change of emphasis may represent an unconscious decision by Members. But I believe that however unsatisfactory Parliamentary Questions are by way of controlling the Executive, such Questions have a function. The White Paper, Command 4829, estimated expenditure on civil projects in 1971–72 at £213 million. This seems to disclose an unsatisfactory situation of control and is one of the consequences of having a large conglomerate Department. It also means that we are less able to get after Ministers than hitherto has been the case.
  Mr. Eric Deakins: I do not follow the hon. Member's logic about Parliamentary Questions. Surely if fewer Questions are asked of one Minister in a 10-week period than in a previous 10-week period, then more Questions must have been asked of another Minister. It becomes a matter of balance as to which Minister one puts Questions to.
  Mr. Rodgers: I think my hon. Friend must have missed part of what I said.

  1549
  I said that it represented an unconscious choice by Members. Members may have chosen to place emphasis in this way, but it must be of concern to the House that, whereas before the dissolution order there were frequent opportunities for hon. Members to cross-examine a Department, now Questions which used to go to a single Minister responsible for that one Department go to the Secretary of State. This reduces the possibility of cross-examining the large spending Departments, even if the matter may involve a minority interest.
  I was interested in the evidence given by Sir Antony Part, the Permanent Secretary to the Department of Trade and Industry, to the Trade and Industry Sub-Committee on 23rd March this year, which evidence has been published. As Chairman of the Committee, I was asking him about the change to investment grants and whether he was concerned that information affecting the Department would not be available in the White Paper. He first told me that I should put the Question to the Treasury. I then asked him at Question 146:
  "But in so far as you took part in discussions which led to the change of form, was the question of information to be available to the House of Commons one of the matters which was taken into account?"
  Sir Antony's reply was:
  "So far as I know, no."
  There were then the following series of questions and answers:
  "(Q) It was not considered that it was important that the House of Commons should know how Government money is being spent, as of course it will be spent with allowances?—(A) No….
  (Q) But you would agree that it is a step back from disclosure?—(A) It is a step back from disclosure….
  (Q) Parliament's control of the Executive is weakened?—(A) Parliamentary control of the Executive is not weakened in relation to the allowances, because the practice in relation to the allowances is not changed.
  (Q) In relation to the spending of public money that the allowances involve?—(A) Yes."
  I draw attention to those questions and answers simply to illustrate the extent to which that evidence put before the Committee by the Permanent Secretary, to the effect that the House of Commons would be less informed, was not a matter which was considered.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Patrick Jenkin): Sir Antony's first answer that the hon. Member should direct the Question to the Treasury was perhaps most useful. Perhaps the hon. Member will recollect that in the Budget debates his right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Dell) asked if we would be publishing the same sort of information about depreciation allowances. I gave an undertaking that we would examine it, and we are examining it. It is not right to draw the conclusion that nothing of that will appear in the same particularity as it did in regard to investment grants.
  Mr. Rodgers: The Financial Secretary is dealing with a somewhat different point. I was asking the Permanent Secretary whether lack of disclosure was discussed at that time, and he said it was not. I should be glad to give way to the Financial Secretary if he wishes to say that the Permanent Secretary was wrong—I see that the hon. Gentleman does not wish to say that.
  My third point is as to the extent to which concealment arises in regard to Concorde. Yesterday there was a Private Notice Question concerning the discussions in Paris on Tuesday of this week about the selling price of Concorde. As the White Paper shows, there has been substantial public investment in research and development, and it is likely that this eventually will amount to some £500 million of Exchequer money. Therefore, it is reasonable that the House should know first the selling price of Concorde; secondly what allowance is made in the estimates; and, thirdly, what assumptions have been made as to the number of aircraft to be sold. Fourthly, is there any further information concerning loans to be made available for the production of aircraft? Finally, what is thought to be the likely outturn?
  I thought it was wholly unsatisfactory and out of keeping with the attempt by this House to learn more about public expenditure that basic information of this kind was denied on Tuesday and is again denied to the House today, despite the fact that some £500 million of taxpayers' money has gone into the development of Concorde. The Concorde story—irrespective of the merits of the aircraft, which we are not discussing—is from start to finish a story of concealment, and I shall

  1551
  not be satisfied until the House has developed instruments to prevent a similar history in the future.
  I agree with the important point made yesterday by the right on, Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann), Chairman of the Select Committee on Expenditure, about developments which will enable us better to conduct our work. He said first that we should be appointed for more than one session at a time, and I am sure that is right. Secondly, he referred to the timetable for the debate, to which I have already referred. Thirdly, he mentioned the need for further specialist help. And, fourthly, he spoke of the need for an overall programme of work which was satisfactory to the House. There was one passage in the right hon. Gentleman's speech with which I would quarrel:
  "We shall try to open the door as little—as much, that is, as is proper—and thereby re-establish somewhat the authority of Parliament …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th December, 1971; Vol. 827, c. 1339–40.]
  I felt that reference to what is proper was out of place in a debate of this kind. Nothing is improper for a Committee of this House in trying to prise open the door into government. I hope none of us will be in any way constrained in our endeavours to seek information which has not hitherto been available.
  Mr. David Marquand: My hon. Friend said—and I am sure he is right—that the Expenditure Committee needs to have a programme of work that is acceptable to the House. Would he consider some mechanism for feeding into the Expenditure Committee the views of those hon. Members who are not members of the Committee to ensure that the programme is acceptable to the House as a whole, and is not simply devised by specialist technicians who are lucky enough to be members of the Committee?
  Mr. Rodgers: I am sure that my hon. Friend is right, and I hope that we shall develop more sophisticated procedures. In future, the sub-committees of the Expenditure Committee might well find a formula by which they can take the views of the House before deciding the subjects that they should discuss.
  I make a further proposal which was not contained in the remarks of the right hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann)
  1552
  but which is important. I reflect on the wide area that the House very properly wishes to examine, and I am conscious that each sub-committee is extraordinarily small. The Trade and Industry Sub-Committee consists of eight members. Even if they occupied themselves every day of the week, which would be quite impossible if the Chamber were to remain central to Parliament, they could not get through the volume of work required of them. As our experience unfolds, I hope that the House may consider at some stage establishing not simply sub-committees of the Expenditure Committee, but main committees dealing with the principal areas of policy. Whether that will be possible depends on the interest in and the concern of hon. Members in the work of the Expenditure Committee. Not everyone is as concerned and interested as my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Marquand). If that is so and more Members are prepared to be involved, I am sure that the Expenditure Committee can increase its area of competence and that that will be to the great advantage of parliamentary control.
  5.31 p.m.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: I am sure that the hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. William Rodgers) is right in saying that, although on the two sides of the House in many respects there may be very different approaches to public expenditure, there is in this debate a unanimity—at any rate, of profession—in the desire to see a closer and more effective control of public expenditure exercised both by the Government and by Parliament. I intend to offer my own decided opinion as to the progress or retrogression which is being made in that respect.
  First, however, I want to look back just 14 months to the famous mini-Budget of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in October, 1970. In the White Paper which accompanied his statement, we were impressed, startled, and on this side delighted to discover that, in the three following financial years, 1971 –72 to 1974 –75, the average annual rate of increase in public expenditure, which, but for his decisions, would have been 3½ per cent. a year, had been reduced to 2·8 per cent. a year. That appeared to be a useful start upon the ambitions of many members of this

  1553
  party and many of its supporters. That prospect seemed to be confirmed when the following White Paper on Public Expenditure, which appeared in January of this year, showed an average annual increase in public expenditure of 2·6 per annum expected over the five years from 1969 –70 to 1974 –75. Moreover, the same White Paper pointed out with some satisfaction in paragraph 10 that this rate of increase was below the rate of increase in productive potential which had been the experience of the country during preceding years.
  All, therefore, seemed to point to a projection of the increase in public expenditure which would be within the projection of the increase in the national income, thus allowing not merely more scope for manoeuvre to the Government but the prospect of a continuing alleviation of taxation and transfer of elements of the economy from the sphere of State decision. Such was the prospect that we were invited to contemplate by the White Papers of October, 1970, and January, 1971.
  We find something different to read in the White Paper of November, 1971. In the famous paragraph 7, that White Paper presents us with a projected annual increase in public expenditure over the next four years of 32 per cent. per annum. Again it relates that prospective rate of increase to the increase in the nation's productive potential; but this time it only says, with rather more restraint and some ambiguity, that the rate of increase in public expenditure is keeping close to the rate of increase in productive potential which has been experienced during the last 10 years, though it goes on to make some reasonable but, on the whole, optimistic forecasts as to the future progress of that increase in the nation's productive potential.
  So here is a contrast, at any rate on the face of it, and those of us who have attended patiently throughout this debate have listened carefully to the explanation for the difference which has been given from the Treasury Bench. I am sure we are especially grateful to my hon. Friend the Minister of State, to whose explanation of the method of calculation adopted in the new White Paper we listened with equal enjoyment and fascination.
  1554
  Undoubtedly, there is a new basis of assessment. The method of measuring public expenditure which is now used and which produces a projection of 3·2 per cent. per annum—higher than recent experience of the growth in productive potential—is a different basis from that which had caused us so much satisfaction and happy anticipation a year or so ago. Still we are confronted with the fact—and it is a fact upon the new basis; that is stated plainly on the face of the new White Paper—that public expenditure, projected in the manner in which it is considered most reliable and least misleading to present it, is destined to rise over the next four years on average at a rate which will exceed the growth in the national productive potential, unless that rises faster than has been our recent experience. So the prospect is no longer, subject to certain qualifications, one of our being able to look forward to progressive, however gradual, limitation of the sphere of the State in the economy as a whole, or to a reduction in the burden which that represents on the public in terms of taxation.
  How has this come about, and what are the real prospects? Undoubtedly a factor, but perhaps not a very important one, has been the decisions on expenditure taken and announced by the Government between their first and their second public expenditure White Papers. But there are other points which it is more important for the future that we should notice.
  The first is the choice of the expression "productive potential" as the basis of comparison with the rate of increase in public expenditure. One understands why this expression, philosophically very difficult, has been preferred by the Treasury. It is not very easy to be sure what is meant by, or what is, the "productive potential" in any year—
  Mr. Harold Lever: Nor the potential potential.
  Mr. Powell: Nor my hon. Friend's potential potential. The only ascertainable fact is what was the actual production; and the significant ratio year by year is the ratio of actual public expenditure to the nation's actual production. No doubt that also is difficult to estimate and project and it should be remembered

  1555
  that our experience has invariably been one of excessive optimism in projecting the growth of the gross national product. There may or may not be reasons for expecting the growth of the gross national product to accelerate; but we are to a certain extent pre-empting our optimism in that respect by the rate of increase of public expenditure expressed in terms of an annual average of 3·2 per cent.—the Chief Secretary adjusted that to 3·3 per cent. in his speech last night—over the next four years.
  However, this figure is itself subject to considerable qualification. There was an interesting exchange between the Minister of State and my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne). The Minister drew the attention of my hon. Friend to the movement of public expenditure in the individual years over which the average of 3·2 per cent or 3·3 per cent. is obtained. It is a delightful picture when one looks at the tables on pages 11 and 12 of the White Paper. Successive figures of the annual increase in public expenditure are given, and we see the figure of 3·9 per cent. in the present year, then 3·1 per cent., followed by 1·9 per cent., and finally 1·4 per cent. in 1974 –75.
  We are invited to believe that the projected annual average of 3·2 per cent. over the next four years conceals, as well as expresses, a downward trend as dramatic as that from a 3·9 per cent. increase in the present year to a 1·4 per cent. increase four years hence, in 1974–75. Nobody can prove anything about the future, but the kind of shape of the prospective future movement of public expenditure which is presented by these tables is highly improbable.
  Mr. Higgins: I think my right hon. Friend was referring to Table 1.1 on page 11. I was referring to the table at the top of page 12.
  Mr. Powell: I was aware of that, but the Minister will agree that the table on page 11 sets out the volume changes, which are then translated into cost changes in the table at the top of page 12. I make no complaint about this. If however, recalculation in the new "cost" terms had been made for each of the same years, we would have had a similar sequence to that which I have brought to
  1556
  the attention of the House in volume terms.
  Now, I realise that in their choice of new expenditure measures in the present year the Government have avoided the pitfall into which the right hon. Gentleman opposite so precipitously fell. The Government have selected expenditures which, on the face of it, are of a terminable character. It is their proposition that they are not increasing the total of public expenditure, or at any rate not appreciably, but are simply bringing forward into earlier years expenditure which would have occurred in later years. I can only say that the tendency of a level of expenditure, once attained, to persist or to rise is very great indeed. I fear that we shall find that although these expenditures may have been brought forward from later years, there will be no lack of others to fill their place when those later years arrive.
  Mr. Heffer: Why not?
  Mr. Powell: There is a difference of principle between the two sides of the House, which I am not disputing. I am considering the question of control, about which in some sense both sides are at one, and I hope that on that I shall carry the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) with me.
  There is another and more serious respect in which these long-term forecasts of public expenditure are misleading. That is that there is a built-in tendency to underestimate future expenditure and to underestimate it the more the further ahead are the years with which one is dealing. The reason is simple: it is that in the immediate future we see what there is to be done; we see the expenditures that are needed; we know the circumstances. But try as we may to insert contingency items—and there are contingency items in these tables—we never, and experience verifies this, dare insert sufficient contingency items to grasp the reality of what comes along as the later years arrive.
  This was illustrated and in a way sharpened by an important exchange last night between the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) and the Chief Secretary. The hon. Gentleman elicited from my hon. Friend that there is a difference in kind, as well as in perspective, between many of the figures relating

  1557
  to the later years of the quinquennium or quadrennium and the figures for the earlier years. It was exemplified by the case at which the House was then looking, namely, capital expenditure on nationalised industries. It resulted in the Chief Secretary saying of those later figures that they were
  "simply an estimate of what the present decisions will result in,"
  but were
  "in no sense a forecast of what decisions would be taken."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th Dec., 1971; Vol. 827, c. 1379.]
  This is not a question of the impact of new policies. What is being said is that the figures written in for years three, four and five are merely the figures produced by decisions actually taken and already in the pipeline. They are, therefore, totals which have no significance in themselves. They are not genuine attempts to estimate total expenditures, even on the present outlook, in the later years of the four or five-year period. Thus, we have a third distortion.
  Now, all these distortions are in the same direction, and are introduced into a long-term forecast which itself provides no reason for supposing that there will be a downward divergence between public expenditure and national income.
  Mr. Tam Dalyell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the real practical problem that if industry takes seriously the figures about which he has been speaking, that could result in it taking decisions that will prove to have been taken on a false basis? For example, there are people in the heavy electricity generating industry who are taking decisions on the basis of figures for the projected 1973–74 investment of the nationalised industries in Scotland. The Treasury should appreciate this. Those figures may bear no relationship to the total investment of, for example, the South of Scotland Electricity Generating Board. This is a practical example of something that could now hurt investment in contracting industries a great deal.
  Mr. Powell: The hon. Member has drawn attention to one of the many dangers of publishing apparently precise figures as to years which are two, three or four years away, without attaching to
  1558
  those figures warnings which would, in effect, prevent them from being put to any practical use. Indeed, what I am submitting to the House is that, so far from these four-year or five-year projections, these long-term statements of public expenditure, assisting the House in understanding or controlling public expenditure, they do in fact have the opposite effect, and that in the attempt to strengthen our control and our understanding, we are in danger of actually weakening them.
  These long-term forecasts stem from the Plowden Report, which received so much acclaim 10 or 11 years ago. I have, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in accordance with the custom of the House, given notice to the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that time, who now occupies the Chair, that I would be referring to a correspondence which passed between us when in 1961 he was considering the initial implementation of the Plowden Report. However, I intend to quote only the submission which I at that time made to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and not the reply which I received from him; and I believe that I am entitled to do so, as that submission was expressly made by me in a personal and not a ministerial capacity, although I was at that time Minister of Health. I ask the indulgence of the House in quoting the actual words on Plowden which I submitted to my right hon. and learned Friend over 10 years ago, not only because I do not find today that I can express the thoughts better, but also because it may be useful, when we are contemplating the development and the maturity of what was a popular new notion 10 or 11 years ago, to remember that doubts and anxieties about it were felt from the outset.
  In September, 1961, I wrote to my right hon. and learned Friend:
  "I believe that the central recommendation of the Report…"—
  that is, of the Plowden Committee—
  "… (that public expenditure decisions be taken in the light of prospective total expenditure and resources over a period of years) is destructive of Treasury control and will strongly tend to the increase of public expenditure and to inflation. My reasons are as follows.… Given the current preoccupation of politicians and the public with 'growth', the Government dare not, for very shame, pitch their estimate of prospective resources low. As it is, they are liable to be told by

  1559
  their opponents that the rate of growth anticipated is miserable, and that all difficulties would be resolved by a policy to make it increase faster. Inevitably therefore the estimate of prospective income …"—
  in our more sophisticated day, this, of course, has become "productive potential"—
  "… is on the high side. The same happens with expenditure. Every service has to be allowed to 'expand'; otherwise there would be a terrible outcry. What?' people would say, 'no expansion in the health services for the next five years?'. It sounds terrible in prospect: in retrospect nobody bothers, because the same expenditure at constant prices has been made to yield more benefit. Furthermore, the whole public sector of expenditure has to be committed to existing services and their expansion, because we do not yet know what new ones will be demanded in future and it is not practicable politically to keep a big contingency fund'. The result is that the new expenditure, when it imposes itself irresistibly (as new expenditures do), is piled on top of the existing expenditures already publicly and fully committed. Nor is it practicable to come forward forecasting a decline in the proportion of the national product to be expended on public account"—
  ten years later, the White Paper is still not forecasting such a decline—
  "otherwise every interest would clamour that its essential needs are being sacrificed for the sake of reducing taxation: 'why me?'… Finally, since all the forecasts of expenditure have to be made 'in real terms' or at constant prices' …"—
  of course, this too, was before these sophisticated days of "real costs" which have been embodied for the first time in the new White Paper—
  "there is a built-in inflationary mechanism. The Chancellor enters into commitments which are hedged against him in the event of inflation. When prices and wages go up, he cannot say to his colleagues: 'Stop overspending your estimates'. It is they who say to him: 'You have promised us such and such in real terms therefore pay us more cash accordingly'. The form in which the spending intentions are expressed thus tends to deprive the Government of control over cash expenditure exactly when they need it."
  I concluded:
  "The Plowden exercise, as a public policy, is an exercise in escapism. There is only one key to the control of expenditure. That is for the Government to wish it, and to wish it more than they wish anything inconsistent with it. If this condition is not fulfilled—no amount of long-term planning and forecasting will give control. If, on the other hand, a time comes when a Government does want to control expenditure, the Plowden policy will have created a series of commitments, expectations and habits of thought and speech which will be a severe impediment."
  1560
  I revert from words of ten years ago—I apologise for having troubled the House at such length—to the present. I admit that there seems something very churlish, very unattractive after the tremendous efforts which have been made by the Treasury in evolving long-term estimates of expenditure and perpetually refining them, after all the work of the Committee presided over by my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) and its sub-committees, to suggest the conclusion that it is all "vanity and vexation of spirit"; that, so far from giving Parliament or the country a truthful or genuine impression of what is likely, so far from strengthening the hands of those who wish to criticise and control, the net effect is rather the contrary. Yet that, I am sorry, is what I do suggest to the House.
  I believe that there is only one key to control of public expenditure, either by this House or the Treasury. It is the method on which indeed the very existence of this House and of so many of its procedures have been founded. I almost hesitate to mention it, so unfashionable is it. It is the annual presentation of estimates, the annual examination of estimates, the annual control of expenditure. I believe that still is the only formula which yields genuine information to Parliament or real power of control to Treasury or to House of Commons. On the two sides of the House, the trend of public expenditure upwards or downwards evokes very different emotions; but I believe that, on both sides of the House, we should be very jealous to see that changes in procedure do not weaken rather than strengthen what we would all, though for different purposes, wish to be strong.
  6.0 p.m.
  Mr. David Steel: We have just heard an interesting analysis of the White Paper and the procedures now used by the House. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman did not mean to be churlish to individual members of this Committee—
  Mr. Powell indicated assent.
  Mr. Steel: As a Member who has not sat on that Committee and does not normally take part in economic debates,

  1561
  I am grateful to those hon. Members who have laboured over the past Session on the Committee on Public Expenditure and its various sub-committees.
  I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman's analysis, interesting though it was. The hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. William Rodgers) in particular made a valuable point when he said that the House, both in its open questioning and in its examination by specialist Committees, must be more effective in tackling conglomerate Departments.
  If anything, the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), has underestimated the extent to which the present Government have, in part at least, adopted his own philosophy by abandoning attempts at forecasts. We no longer get forecasts of unemployment or house building levels. The right hon. Gentleman wants to push them further—
  Mr. Higgins: The hon. Gentleman says that we "no longer" give forecasts of unemployment. Could he tell us when we did?
  Mr. Steel: It is one of the big sticks with which the present Administration beat the previous Government that the latter's forecasts were wrong. If they were wrong, they must have existed. In housing, a particular interest of mine, I remember specific figures being given which were not attained. That is the reason for the present Administration laying down no figures at all.
  Mr. Higgins rose—
  Mr. Steel: No, I will not give way again.
  This is a weakness in policy. I hope that the Government will not take too much heed of the advice from behind them to pursue a policy of no forecasting.
  It is interesting that the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West and the hon. Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne) and, I dare say, other hon. Members opposite are, to be fair to them, trying to keep their policy more akin to the attitude which they adopted at the last General Election—that increases in public expenditure were themselves bad and that lower taxation
  1562
  was itself good, a proposition with which those of us who take a slightly wider view of the social responsibility of Government would not necessarily agree.
  The debate has been interesting because it has proceeded on two distinct levels. There are those who use the opportunity to exchange their economic theories, as most hon. Members have done, and there are those like myself—perhaps a minority—who want to use the occasion to pick out certain items from the White Paper to ride their particular hobby horses on the figures with which we have been supplied. I want to do that with three topics.
  I turn first to the forecast on page 54 of the White Paper that levels of unemployment benefit to be paid out in future which are to rise from £150 million provisional outturn for the current years to £172 million in 1975 –76. There is an interesting annotation at the bottom of the table, which says:
  "The figures for unemployment benefit are not to be regarded as reflecting a forecast of the levels to which unemployment will be reduced."
  That is very interesting, when one notes that the estimate for next year jumps from £150 million to £230 million in 1971–72.
  The Government's policy of emergency public works programmes should be followed to its logical conclusion. These figures represent a tremendous waste of human and material resources as well as social evils in individual cases. I represent an area which has not had unemployment as a very serious problem until recently; even now, I am conscious that other parts of the country are suffering far greater hardship than my own constituency.
  But when one sees electricians, joiners, construction workers thrown out of work, one is more than ever aware of the sense of the paternalist capitalists of the last century, who used to construct follies rather than see people idle. There is no need for the Government to go in for a set of nationalised follies. There are plenty of public works which could be brought forward. The right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) had a fair point when he said that one could not switch on tomorrow public works programmes and

  1563
  reduce unemployment unless there had been forward planning of projects which could at any given time be produced.
  We could each go to our constituencies and produce items for the Government. I will resist that temptation, but one figure which worries me is that given on page 62 of the White Paper, where a slide is forecast in the level of expenditure on housing in Scotland from £230 million in the present year to £221 million in 1975–76. By any standards, with the present housing situation in Scotland, this is a very alarming development. I should like to see programmes for housing, roads, hospitals, for example, brought forward at least to the drawing board stage where, given an economic situation in which unemployment was threatening to rise, they could be implemented and an immediate effect secured in the reduction of unemployment.
  I turn now to the details of expenditure on regional development on page 25. From them we can see that investment grants will drop from £592 million in the present year to £37 million in 1975–76 and that the regional employment premium will also drop from £109 million to £2 million. In the face of these figures, I do not see how the Government can pretend that they are keeping up steam behind their regional development programme.
  The transition from investment grants to investment allowances, apart from being less effective, has been done as part and parcel of the Government's bookkeeping programme, so that they can say that they have reduced public expenditure, because tax allowances do not appear in these tables as items of expenditure.
  I was interested in the right hon. Member for Cheetham's advocacy of a regional development bank, but my experience of representing part of a development area under both Governments is that the biggest single step forward which could be taken in regional development is not the advent of new ideas, incentives or definitions of development areas, but rather the creation of a feeling in Government that regional development must be the concern of every Department of Government and of every aspect of public expenditure. It is no good having
  1564
  other arms of Government taking the view that regional development is somehow the responsibility of the Department of Trade and Industry and of no one else.
  I can give three examples which have occurred in the course of my ordinary work in the last month. They are not the most profound or serious which can be given, but they illustrate my point.
  Last month the Scottish Office sent the Under-Secretary of State for Development to Germany on a tour to persuade German industrialists to invest in Scotland. At the same time B.E.A. announced plans to abolish the first-class air services to Scotland with effect from next spring. When one tackles the Minister, he says that it is a matter for the commercial judgment of B.E.A. If the Government believe that, they might as well hive off B.E.A. to be a private company. The whole point of a public company is that its commercial judgment should be subservient to the policy of the Government. If we are serious about regional development and attracting more investment to Scotland, it is ridiculous, for some marginal savings, to take away the one swift and most painless method of getting to and from Scotland.
  The second example is the public programems of the B.B.C. and I.T.A. in the development of their transmitters. In many parts of my constituency, the public are denied U.H.F. services, colour television and B.B.C.2, because the transmitters are not available. They pay the same licence fee as anyone else and if they live in certain urban areas, they are lucky enough to be able, by paying another fee, to be wired in to a commercial relay company.
  If we are to have a fourth T.V. channel, the best thing that the Government can do is say that for once the development should start at the other end of the country. Even if it is uneconomic, if we are serious about regional development, the benefit should start for once in the development areas.
  The third and perhaps more important example is the development of subscriber trunk dialling. I recently visited a factory making highly sophisticated avionic equipment in the Scottish development area. The managing director told me, "We were told to come here because it was a special development area and we had all

  1565
  these extra incentives. But I waste many hours and a lot of money trying to get telephone calls to and from New York because we are not attached to subscriber trunk dialling." If we are to have regional development and make it effective, the Post Office must be told that its capital expenditure programmes and the development of communications must be geared to it.
  The Prime Minister, in reply to a Question today, talked about the willingness of the Government to disperse offices and their executives out of London within the limits of retaining Government efficiency. But Government efficiency cannot be retained consistently with dispersal unless infrastructure is built up adequately. The greatest difficulty in the regional policies of both Governments is the maintenance of the view that the developments in civilisation begin in London and taper off the further north of Hampstead one goes. The biggest single improvement would be to get every Government Department and every sector of the public economy switched on to the need for regional development.
  Finally, I turn to the figures of expenditure on social services. It is really time we supported the campaign, growing among members of all parties, to get the Government to make a proper economic assessment of the value of the savings that would be made by introducing a proper, free family planning service under the National Health Service—something for which medical bodies themselves are beginning to campaign also.
  In the face of abortion figures running at the rate of 100,000 a year, the Birmingham Pregnancy Advisory Service carried out last year a survey of 5,000 patients who came to it for advice, seeking abortions. It was found that 36 per cent. of the married patients and 63 per cent. of the unmarried had used no form of contraception on the occasion which had caused pregnancy. From the point of view of social policy, it is clearly more desirable to reduce abortions by having effective contraceptive facilities but there is also the wider economic argument as well.
  The expenditure on maternity grants, maternity allowances, the provision of ante-natal services, welfare milk, hospital facilities, midwives, health visitors, primary
  1566
  and secondary education, school meals, family allowances and all the other services—including, in particular, a large amount on problem children—adds up to a cost of £2,000 per child over 20 years. This means that if we continue to allow 200,000 unintended children through lack of an efficient birth control service we are committing ourselves to spending another £400 million per annum of the taxpayer's money during the next two decades.
  Of course these figures have to be treated with caution but we are entitled to ask that the Government investigate them because, at this year's Family Planning Association's conference, the Secretary of the South-West Metropolitan Regional Hospital Board also gave the figure of £400 million in assessing the potential saving on each year's unplanned pregnancies. He estimated that the cost of free, comprehensive birth control services would be about £40 million per annum, which would mean a net saving of £360 million if the figures quoted are correct. The saving would certainly be very substantial.
  One of the differences which will remain between the two sides of this House is that we believe that public expenditure should be used in order to achieve a more just society. The minor reductions in public expenditure which we see in the White Paper—for example, on school meals and milk—are the reverse of the kind of policy we would like to see pursued.
  6.15 p.m.
  Mr. Wilfred Proudfoot: Looking at the White Paper figures, I am reminded of a story I heard yesterday. It was to the effect that a firm had given its figures—which were historical, of course—to three different firms of accountants, which all produced different profit figures. Those were on historical grounds. Here we are trying to look, quite correctly, into the future—even more difficult.
  I was rather surprised when my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) asked that we should not have five-year rolling programmes. I remember in 1961—I was then still a back bencher, although I sat for a different constituency—being

  1567
  very proud of my right hon. Friend's ten-year rolling programme for hospitals. I thought that it was intelligent, sensible and the correct thing to do. So he has changed his mind very much since then.
  Mr. Powell: I have not changed my mind; it is my hon. Friend who has fallen into the crude fallacy of assuming that, because it may be sensible in one service or another to have programmes for 5, 10 or 15 years ahead, therefore it is sensible or wise to have programmes of total public expenditure for five years ahead. No such deduction can be drawn.
  Mr. Proudfoot: I am glad my right hon. Friend has made that clear because I agree with him that some sectors are much easier to define for the purpose of future expenditure. Indeed, it is vital that it should be done.
  For many years I have thought that if I had the chance to distort our public expenditure I would do it for one purpose above all—road construction. I believe that we have not given and are not going to give ourselves the roads we really require. We all accept that, by about 1990, we will have the maximum number of cars per head of population that we shall ever have. Why not get the roads now as rapidly as possible? That is one way in which I would virtually unbalance the economy because it would pay a very big dividend to the whole of society and not just drivers. The roads are purely the extensions of the factories to get the goods to the consumers—and that includes the consumers at the other end of our export drive.
  The other thing which did not attract me very much about the White Paper was that I could not pick out any sum of money for medical research. I must admit that this rather surprised me because I would have thought that to spend money to look at the two or three diseases which now frighten people to a major degree could produce results far more rapidly than a lot of people may believe.
  The main factor about the White Paper which struck me when I was reading it was that it is about spending our money and our constituents' money. The Government and the local authorities spend 41 per cent. of all the money which goes through the hands of the public.
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  Then I looked at the figures for the Department of Trade and Industry and was disappointed, although not surprised, to find that nothing was allocated either to what we now refer to as the Bolton Committee—the report on small firms. I look forward to next year's White Paper, when I hope to see a very tiny amount in it for expenditure on small firms.
  I say "tiny amount" because when I look at these massive figures in the White Paper, obviously this tiny amount will get incredible results. It will not be easy to find out how to spend the money, because people in small firms are not easy to communicate with or get at. One of the biggest jobs will be to find out how to get at them.
  I wrote to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister yesterday but found that the journalists who bothered to report what I had written to him had got my story completely wrong, as did the right hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) earlier this week. He assumed that small firms were all in manufacturing. The Press assumed that small firms were, in the main, small grocers' shops, and it is worth pointing out that Bolton, for the first time, has identified what we can all agree are small firms. That might, in the end, be the only lasting service which the Bolton Report will have done. It has given small firms a political identity, and I should like to quote from the report.
  It shows that in manufacturing industry small firms with fewer than 200 employees have 20 per cent. of the total number of people working in manufacturing. In the retailing industry, firms with a turnover of less than £1,000 a week have 49 per cent. of the people employed in retailing. For the wholesale trades the figure is 25 per cent. For construction the figure is 33 per cent. of the total of those employed in the industry. In mining it is 20 per cent., in the motor trades it is 32 per cent., in miscellaneous services it is 82 per cent., in road transport it is 36 per cent., and in catering, which is pretty obvious to everybody, the figure is 75 per cent.
  I believe that a tiny amount of money ploughed into helping and encouraging these small firms would bring magnificent results, not only in the areas of high employment, but in the development

  1569
  areas where we all acknowledge that most of the money that has been spent has gone naturally to capital-intensive industries instead of to labour-intensive industries. If a small amoant of money were expended in that way, we should all be surprised at the result that would be achieved. It would help the small men of business but, more important, it would help the whole of the community in which they operate and the whole of our society.
  I repeat two suggestions which I have made to the Department of Trade and Industry Minister with the responsibility for small firms. One is that a small firm scholarship should be set up. By that I do not mean that small business men should go to university or to a technical college for a year or more. They have their noses to the grindstone, and they are not likely to take them off easily. The scholarship which I envisage would be seminars of two or three days. My son has been on a one-day seminar today on this very type of thing. Attending these seminars would get the small business man out of his environment, out of the daily pressures of his business, and give him perspective.
  If that were done, I am sure that small businesses would grow. When it comes to distributing the scholarship, I think that that could be done by local Chambers of Commerce, local Chambers of Trade and the Small Business Association collectively. I think that there should be a maximum age limit so that the establishment in the local districts association would not get the scholarships. I should probably look on as a criterion for a scholarship a man's success as shown by his audited accounts, if he were prepared to produce them. I should give the go-getter that type of scholarship.
  I have asked the Minister to spend money on programme learning for specific areas which are common to all businesses—cash flow, budgeting, discounted cash flow, and so on. There are perhaps 20, 30, 40 or 50 techniques which are common to all businesses, and it would involve only a small expenditure to write the programmes.
  I should then like to see the programmes freely and easily available to men in small businesses with the requisite teaching machines, or there might be
  1570
  merely a printed text of programme learning. That would enable small business men to be taught at their place of business. The Armed Forces use this technique. Businesses with a scattered sales and work force use it, too. Indeed, it is in use in some of our schools.
  Those two suggestions, with a small amount of money expended on them, could give this country a good return.
  6.26 p.m.
  Mr. David Marquand: I hope that the hon. Member for Brighouse and Spenborough (Mr. Proudfoot) will forgive me if I do not follow the points that he has made. One of the difficulties inherent in the nature of this debate is that individual hon. Members, quite rightly, pursue their own hobby-horses when it comes to priorities within the total of public expenditure. That is perhaps one reason why, in certain respects, the debate tends to be somewhat unsatisfactory, and I shall contribute to its unsatisfactoriness by not replying to what the hon. Gentleman has just said. Instead I should like to consider some of the more general issues which have run through the debate today and yesterday. I want to start by looking at the procedural questions which were particularly prominent yesterday rather than today, not simply because of their intrinsic interest but because of their high political significance.
  Anyone interested in this subject must acknowledge that thanks to the work of the Expenditure Committee, and in particular, perhaps, to that of the General Sub-Committee, a great deal of progress has been made in the form of the White Paper. From the point of view of public scrutiny and control this is by far the best White Paper that we have ever had. I freely acknowledge the work which the Treasury has done in this respect. I suspect, however, that the Treasury would not have done that work had it not been for the prodding of the General Sub-Committee of the Expenditure Committee. I may be cynical but I doubt whether the Treasury would have been as forthcoming had there not been the stimulus of this expert Committee behind it.
  Although a considerable advance has unquestionably been made, it would be a pity if the Treasury and Treasury Ministers were to sit back and assume that they have done all that they can

  1571
  and that no further improvements are necessary. There are still serious defects in the White Paper from the point of view of parliamentary control and appraisal and I hope that I shall not sound churlish in asking for a still better White Paper next year.
  I hesitate to refight this battle as it is on a well-worn theme, but I am still unsatisfied by the explanation which the Treasury has given, for its refusal to publish any kind of medium-term economic assessment. The Minister of State, in one of the more technical passages of his speech when he was eschewing partisan point-scoring, said that part of the purpose of the public expenditure strategy in the White Paper was to achieve a certain degree of economic growth, a certain degree of expansion in total output.
  If that is one of the purposes of the public expenditure strategy which the Government have outlined and set before us in the White Paper, how on earth are we expected to appraise it, to scrutinise it and to decide whether it is the right strategy if the Government do not at the same time tell us how they expect the prospective resources to grow over the period? I hate to be a bore about this but I do not think that the explanations so far given by the Treasury on this matter are satisfactory.
  Yesterday my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. Taverne) said he hoped that his Sub-Committee would look into the question of projections of public resources during this year. I, too, hope that that will be done and that when it is done, prodded by the General Sub-Committee of the Expenditure Committee, the Treasury will make the same kind of concession as it made this year and abandon some of its reticence when it is faced with the inquisition which I am sure it will encounter in that respect.
  The second area in which the White Paper is still defective—and this is not a criticism of the present Government since it applies equally to the previous Government—is that we are still not given anything like enough information about the objects which the various public expenditure programmes are supposed
  1572
  to serve and about the extent to which the programmes meet those objects.
  Here, too, I acknowledge that this year's White Paper is a great deal more satisfactory than that of last year or the year before. In the second section of the White Paper dealing with the individual expenditure programmes we are given far more information about the extent to which the needs in those various fields are expected to expand than we have ever had before. But although there is a wealth of information in the White Paper on that, there are certain areas where the veil still remains far too impenetrable.
  In the first place, we are not told nearly enough about who actually benefits from particular items of expenditure. We are told about the increase expected in the school population and about the expansion in the school-building programme. We are not told which people actually benefit—which parts of the country, which sections of the community—from that increase in the school-building programme. We are not given any way of finding out whether my constituents, in an area of static population which has suffered over the years because areas of expanding population have had a greater allocation of money for school buildings, are to get a fairer share of the cake than they have had in the past. That is one of the essential questions which has to be asked when we are discussing public expenditure.
  This is particularly true when we come to that part of the total public expenditure programme which is known as transfer payments. Transfer payments, in a sense, ought not to be counted as public expenditure at all. They are certainly a totally different kind of public expenditure from expenditure on resources. Transfer payments are a way of taking money out of some people's pockets and putting it into other people's pockets.
  Transfer payments, are so to speak, a mirror image of taxation. Taxes take money out of some people's pockets and transfer payments put it into other people's pockets. If we are adequately and properly to appraise this part of the public expenditure system we ought to be able in some way or other—I freely confess that I do not know how best to do this—to compare what is happening as a result of taxation on the one hand with what is happening as a result of

  1573
  transfer payments on the other. We ought to be able to see exactly who gets what and who pays what.
  After all, whatever value judgments we may have about the desirability or otherwise of a greater degree of redistribution in society, and the desirability or otherwise of a higher level of public expenditure on transfer payments, any Government which are spending a large sum of money by way of transfer payments presumably have some objectives in mind and intend to benefit certain groups in the community by doing so. Presumably they also have certain other objectives in mind when they take money out of people's pockets by taxation. If we are to appraise the success or otherwise of the Government in attaining the objectives they have in mind, it seems to me that we need to be able to see the system of transfer payments and taxation as a whole.
  This aspect of the White Paper is of particular importance this year. It is clear that the Government's policy has changed, as the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) showed in his devastating speech. I must say I felt rather sympathetic to the Government Front Bench when he was speaking, because its occupants must have felt rather as Mr. Brezhnev and Mr. Kosygin would feel if they were suddenly visited by the ghost of Karl Marx, since the right hon. Gentleman was presenting the pure milk of a doctrine which the Front Bench opposite has long since abandoned. It is true that it has abandoned it; there is no question about that so far as expenditure on resources is concerned.
  If we look at the very important and useful article by Mr. Wynne Godley and his collaborator in The Times Business News yesterday, we see that that aspect of public expenditure over the whole five-year period will rise by about the same rate as it did under the previous Government.
  This is what has happened. The present Government have abandoned their previous commitment to cutting down the public sector's claim on resources. I agree with the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West that it is almost certain to be the case that at the end of the period we shall find that the public sector's claim on resources will
  1574
  be a good deal greater than is projected in the White Paper, for the reasons which the right hon. Gentleman gave. I personally welcome this development and I am not attacking the Government because they have now seen the error of their ways. But although the Government have abandoned their previous doctrinaire policy in regard to the public sector's claim on resources, they have not abandoned it in regard to transfer payments.
  That the Government have not abandoned their previous doctrinaire policy on transfer payments was clearly shown in the Godley article to which I have referred. Over the whole period up to 1974 –1975 we will get a reduction in transfer payments of £430 million from the programme they inherited from the previous Government. This, of course, must be judged against the background of the massive reductions in taxation which were introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Budget earlier this year, which are having exactly the same effect.
  With one hand the Government are taking far less money from the rich in taxation. With the other hand they are giving far less money by means of transfer payments to those in need. That is what is happening under this Government. They are carrying out a deliberate and massive redistribution of income away from those who were benefited by the previous Government and towards the better-off section of society. There is no question but that that is what the figures show.
  Of course, there is nothing very odd about a Tory Government carrying out a policy of that kind. That is what one would expect them to do. Hon. Members opposite are presumably enthusiastic about this. But even hon. Members opposite would surely agree that if we are satisfactorily to appraise the extent to which this change is taking place, and exactly who is benefiting and who is not, there ought to be far more information of the kind I have suggested in future expenditure White Papers.
  As I have said, and as the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton showed very clearly, there has been a radical shift in the Government's strategy for public expenditure. I do not think there is any dispute about this. I suggest that this

  1575
  very fact raises certain questions which ought to be of great concern to my party as well as to the party opposite.
  Why has this change in Government strategy come about? Why is the party which so frequently and so passionately declaimed from platform after platform before the General Election that the public sector was a sort of incubus on the economy and was wasting resources which could be put to much better use if they were left to fructify in the pockets of the people, now following the same path as regards the public sector's claims on resources as was followed by the Labour Government? The answer, of course, is that the objective needs are so great and the pressures, not to improve the services but merely to keep them in the same position, are so great that the Government had no alternative unless they were to cut their throats politically.
  The implication, it seems to me, is that we on this side must accept that it is not enough for us simply to campaign for higher levels of public expenditure in toto. It is not enough for us to say that the total size of the public sector must be enlarged as a proportion of the gross national product. We should, of course, continue to argue the case for higher levels of public expenditure and for allocating a greater share of the gross national product to the public sector, but we must be more sophisticated than that and more sophisticated than we have been in the past. We must also develop a strategy for public expenditure to ensure that it is used deliberately to create a greater degree of equality in society and to redistribute income to those in need.
  I do not think that the expansion of public expenditure under the last Government was completely satisfactory in this respect—that nearly enough thought was given to the extent to which, for instance, hospital or school building should be geared to the needs of the deprived areas. The very fact that the Tory Government have been so quickly persuaded to return to the path of expansion in public expenditure which was followed by the Labour Government should make us a little wary as to whether that path was satisfactory. If we develop a more sophisticated strategy of a deliberately egalitarian kind and if we use the opportunities created—
  Mr. David Mitchell: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that he believes it is more important to have an egalitarian redistribution of wealth than to encourage the creation of new wealth?
  Mr. Marquand: No, of course I am not saying that. I do not want to get involved in a long interchange with the hon. Member on this point. I have consistently said in the House that I believe that it is only possible to redistribute income to those in need against the background of a high rate of economic growth. I am confident that this is so; and the experience of the Labour Government bears this out.
  However, I am not satisfied that even under the Labour Government the public sector was used with anything like a sufficient degree of sophistication as a way of diminishing inequality and redistributing resources to those in need. The moral of this and of previous White Papers is that we need to be much more sophisticated in this respect. We now have much more information. With the help of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Lincoln and his Sub-Committee we shall be given even more information in future years. I hope that the next Labour Government puts that information to use in the way that I have suggested.
  6.45 p.m.
  Mr. Jasper More: It is difficult to believe, with precisely five hon. Members on the benches opposite, that we are debating an Amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues. I say this not merely because I disagree with the wording of the Amendment but because it is regrettable that an Amendment of this character should have been tabled, because it has had the effect of distorting the debate on this important White Paper.
  I listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Marquand). The difficulty facing many hon. Members has been that of having a debate in sequence. I am to some extent in the same difficulty because I would not wish to use this occasion primarily to debate on party political lines questions of priorities either in the public sector or as between the public sector and the private sector.
  Mr. Peter Jay, who writes for a paper which I sometimes read—The Times—said some time ago that we should find

  1577
  buried rather deep in the White Paper what he described as a political bombshell. The low attendance in the House in the last two days does not lead one to believe that the White Paper has had quite that effect at Westminster.
  The first question to which we must address ourselves is: how can we hot up the discussion of this topic? I am not sure that I followed the hon. Member for Ashfield correctly but I think that I am on the same theme when I ask whether it would not add to the interest in the House and to the public interest if the White Paper were made a two-sided document, with the Government giving their projections of the revenue for the corresponding number of years for which they are projecting their expenditure.
  On the definition given to us last night by my hon. Friend the Chief Secretary it would be perfectly easy to do that, because it would merely mean projecting the yield of taxation according to the present rates on decisions taken in the preceding Budget. The Expenditure Committee, which has so vital a part to play in all this, could perhaps hot matters up by suggesting what types of increased or reduced taxation the Government should consider in future years. If suggestions such as those were to be ventilated in the Press, a semi-Budget excitement might come to be associated with these important debates.
  I shall want to say a few words about the form of the debate, to which the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Joel Barnett) referred last night. But I first would like to indulge in what I might call a little textual criticism in the sense that I shall pretend that the Amendment has not been tabled and consider the debate in its virgin purity—namely, that we are taking note of the White Paper.
  The White Paper is an anonymous production. All authors have great problems facing them when going public. I am reminded of the story about what happened between an Oxford man and a Cambridge man on the completion of those vast volumes which can be found in the Library of the House—the Cambridge Histories, ancient, medieval and modern. This is a story against my university but it is true. After the Cambridge man had displayed all the volumes
  1578
  with pride, the Oxford man said, "A very wonderful production, but exactly who is it intended should read them?" We rather ask ourselves the same question when we see the appearance of a White Paper of this character. Judging by what has happened so far, I think that the answer in this case would be about 35 Members of Parliament and about 12 commentators in the more sophisticated Press.
  Can my hon. Friend the Minister of State tell us what the sale of the document has been? It has the interesting price of 68p. When I say "sale" I am not talking of the taking-in of each other's washing that might happen between Government Departments. I am not aware of any one of my 53,000 constituents buying a copy. It would be interesting to know how many sums of 68p. have been collected by the Stationery Office.
  Another thing that should always be considered when producing a document like this is that all the best publications have in small print before the preface a small quotation epitomising the whole object and inspiration of the exercise. The one I suggest for every succeeding White Paper like this is an extract from paragraph 1 of the former White Paper, Cmnd. 4578. The two sentences are not in happy sequence, though that is not my fault but the authors'. Slightly condensed, it would read:
  "When the Government took office they carried out an immediate review of public expenditure in order to permit taxation to be reduced. The individual can then expect to keep more of what he earns and has a greater incentive to productive effort."
  If that could be suitably emphasised as a kind of preface to all the following editions it would be received with great satisfaction on this side.
  Another problem of authorship, apart from knowing who one's readers are, is to know how much knowledge one may assume among those who will read the work. It is a confession of failure if one is not entirely up-to-date on these things. I always go about in this Chamber with the pretence that I completely understand expressions like "productive potential" or "flowback" which trip so easily off the lips of hon. Members. In fact, I have not the faintest idea what they mean, but we must go through these pretences.

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  In this document I was brought up rather sharp for reasons that I do not think are entirely my fault. For example, let us consider paragraph 13 on page 28. I suppose that all my colleagues understand this, but it beats me:
  "the study and development of applications technology satellites."
  I have to confess ignorance there.
  Almost equally interesting are the things it is assumed one does not know. For example, someone says on page 20—it may be a different author, as with the book of Isaiah—that
  "The Diplomatic Service is responsible for representing and promoting British interests abroad."
  I believe that I knew that. Again, on page 21, speaking about the Central Office of Information, the document says that its aim
  "… is to ensure by personal contacts, the provision of material in all media, reference services and a programme of visits to the U.K."
  I think that I knew that also.
  I am slightly more sophisticated about other things. For example, I knew that—as stated on page 24,
  "The Medical Research Council's main function is to advance knowledge that will improve the physical and mental health of individuals in the community."
  I also knew that
  "The National Environment Research Council's main concern is with the earth sciences, oceanography and ecology."
  I knew what ecology means, too.
  What I should have liked in the White Paper—perhaps my hon. Friend can arrange it for another time—is a paragraph telling us what the Treasury does. That is the important thing we need to know. Does the Treasury really regard itself as the master of events in this sphere or does it drift with the trend? That is the fashionable word now, appearing twice in the White Paper.
  I also appeal for slightly more precision in certain parts of the document. That is a slightly old-fashioned point of view. The White Paper is better in some ways than the document we had about six years ago but important words are used a bit freely. "Expenditure" was bound to be used in a document like this but we have quite a lot about "investment",
  1580
  and we sometimes have an uneasy feeling that in this modern, trendy world, expenditure and investment are regarded as being the same. It is a curious fact, for example, that money spent on roads is regarded in the document as expenditure, or is so described, whereas money spent on railways is investment—not all railways though. The spending on railways in the London and South-East commuter network is a more subtle type. It is called infrastructure expenditure because, apparently, something has to be done for social reasons for people who live in the South-East.
  Some of the phrasing also has a certain quaint fascination. I have been campaigning for some years on two different fronts, both very unprofitable: one to persuade my party not to take us into the European Economic Community and the other to increase the country's resources by planting as many trees as possible. I was interested in paragraph 1 on page 20 of the White Paper which is delightfully expressed. It is about the
  "E.E.C. and Other Overseas Services"
  and it says:
  "This programme now includes payments to the European communities. The other expenditure is directed to the promotion of British interests overseas."
  On page 23 we are told that part of the public expenditure on forestry is
  "the net cost each year of growing timber in the State-owned forests (i.e. the increase in the value of the Forestry Commission's plantations)—".
  That is very puzzling. To begin with, "growing" is ambiguous; it can be used there either as an adjective or as a verb. Whichever meaning is intended, it cannot possibly make any sense, because every tree-planter like myself knows to his bitter cost, and must live with the fact, that the net cost of growing timber, in whichever sense the word is used, bears no conceivable comparison to the increase in value of his plantations.
  But the main object of the exercise was explained to us very clearly yesterday by my hon. Friend the Chief Secretary and it is a very valuable explanation. He defined it in answer to the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) in a way that is very useful. We need to hark back to it when we consider the rather devastating speech of my right

  1581
  hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell). If, as my hon. Friend informed us, the figures are only a projection of actual decisions taken, the corollary should be that not all the expenditure is taken up in anticipation during a period as long ahead as four or five years. That appears if we look at a table like the one on page 25 headed "Trade, Industry and Employment", where there are not only items with political implications like investment grants but more factual things like the Concorde. If my hon. Friend's doctrine was rigidly adhered to there, there might still be an area in which it was still debatable in what way expenditure could or should most usefully be applied.
  I am sorry to be so critical of the document but there are certain regrettable places, if what my hon. Friend said was correct, where again and again we are told that something is subject to alteration, to wide margins of error or to uncertainty. If the Chief Secretary's statement is correct, there is nothing wrong in a firm estimate. The whole essence of an estimate is that it might have to be altered or revised. The whole basis of this document ought to be that we should have in large black letters at the beginning, after the introductory quotation in which I will be interested, a warning that these figures are to that extent provisional. It would be better if it were left out of the end of so many paragraphs where it now appears.
  I think that this has been a disappointing debate and I do not feel that it is entirely our fault. This is being very ungrateful to the Procedure Committee and to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, to whom we are greatly indebted for launching the idea at all. It was generous of him to give us two days but I am not sure that the House of Commons has risen to the occasion.
  At the same time, as a number of hon. Members have said—the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton referred to this last night—I think that the debate has, in a sense, perhaps not been staged as cleverly as it might have been. To have a useful debate we should first have the considered comments of the Expenditure Committee. I personally would like also
  1582
  to have a brief reply from the Treasury to that Committee's comments.
  I am not convinced, to use the elegant metaphor borrowed by one of my hon. Friends from Lord Butler that, like game, it should not hang too long. We would not lose in a debate of this kind by waiting for three or four months. After all, what we are talking about is not the actual year but future years and I was slightly puzzled—not critical—by what the hon. Member said about the necessity for two debates. The aim is to get the criticisms of the Expenditure Committee. I suggest—and I am glad to see in the Chamber my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann). to whom we are so much indebted—the possibility of his Committee formally or informally having further discussions with the Procedure Committee as to how best the whole of this can be done. Having started this exercise it is important that we should continue it and decide, as a House of Commons, that we shall make it a success.
  7.4 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Meacher: Despite the most amusing and pointed pastiche put forward by the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. More) and despite his revelations of the terminological curiosities of the White Paper, I still wish to join those who congratulate the Government on the improved presentation of this document. Compared with the White Paper of only 11 months ago, it shows considerable and prompt improvements. Nevertheless I still feel, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Marquand) has so eloquently said, that there remain fundamental improvements which have to be made if this whole exercise is to involve proper sense.
  My main criticism is that in view of the very unequal distributions of earnings in this country, and particularly in view of the growing number of cases where there is a declining level of net disposable income for many lower-income groups, an assessment should be made of the distributional effects in terms of different income levels of the main public expenditure projections, particularly in regard to the social services. Also, since the expenditure decisions determine the structural shape and volume of vital decisions for years to come in a way that is

  1583
  scarcely reversible, it is disappointing that the White Paper develops hardly any arguments about the strategic objectives of social policy. This is quite extraordinary when, at the 1970–71 out-turn, the social services accounted for well over one-third of the public expenditure total which itself required taxes or compulsory contributions amounting to almost one-half of all income arising from productive activity.
  What the White Paper says in Table 1.2 is that expenditure on all social services will increase from 39 per cent. of all public expenditure in 1970–71—with the relative price effect attributed—to 40 per cent. in 1975–76. This is in any event a small increase and it is doubtful whether it represents a real improvement in the standard of life of social service consumers. There is a host of powerful and perhaps irresistible underlying forces pushing up the level of social service disbursements, not only considerably faster than other items in the total expenditure package but also faster than the rise in the gross national product. It is well known that these factors include the disproportionate growth of the dependent population of the very young and the very old, the trend towards longer education and earlier retirement after 65 and improvements in the quality of services like smaller school classes or the increase in expensive drugs. It includes the replacement of outdated and substandard capital plant, something which desperately needs doing and which is to some extent being done, and above all the dead-weight of heavy administrative overheads arising from the strongly labour-intensive bias of the social services.
  This accumulation of factors means that even with the existing policies, and without the improvements in the scope or standards of the social services, social service allocations might be expected to increase by of the order of 60 per cent. by 1975 over their level in 1965. It seems doubtful from the figures presented in the White Paper whether an increase even near this degree is being budgeted for. Such a lack of fundamental data which obscures this central question is surely one of the White Paper's most glaring omissions. There is virtually no analysis of social objectives. Taken at
  1584
  face value, the White Paper appears to regard it as self-evident that £9,228 million should be spent on social services in 1970–71 and that by 1975–76 the figure will be £10,800 million.
  There is no real explanation why, with the relative price effects attributed, roads are to be given an average annual increase of 7·7 per cent. over the next quinquennium and law and order 7·1 per cent. while education will increase by only 4·5 per cent., personal social services and health by 5·1 per cent. and social security by only 1·5 per cent. Apart from assuming that the changes since publication of Cmnd. 4578 in January of this year reflect the changes in political bargaining power in the Cabinet, any other explanation of the ups and downs of expenditure seems conjectural because no clues are given. There is no attempt made in this White Paper as in all other White Papers—but particularly in this one, despite the improvements—to relate spending decisions to any social objectives such as certain income distribution targets, better integration of society, greater community participation or better access to amenities or welfare. To that extent any changes in allocation seem mysterious and arbitrary. Nor, might I add, since social expenditure is often regarded as unproductive, is any attempt made to spell out to what extent or in what time scale social expenditure might be expected to contribute to higher economic growth rather than to act as a drain on the economy.
  Since at least certain blocks of social expenditure might be expected to, and undoubtedly do, yield economic returns in the form of higher rates of economic growth it is a great pity that at least some assessment has not been made to spell out the balance of return, economic and social. The major objections, however, is the lack of any attempt to evaluate the distributional effects of the expenditure allocations.
  It is extraordinary that it should be proposed to spend an extra £1,600 million over the next five years on the social services without trying to establish which persons at which income levels are expected or intended to benefit. It is surely extraordinary that nowhere at present within the machinery of government is any sustained attempt made to

  1585
  clarify the incidence of all the Government's measures which have direct individual income effects.
  Here again I echo the excellent speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Ash-field. Apart from the technical difficulties involved, which are not really insuperable, I can only believe that at least part of the reason is political, because if the exercise were done at present I believe it would show that, combining the fiscal and welfare measures of the past year, persons with incomes over £5,000 a year—that is, roughly 1½ per cent. of the employed population—have received of the order of magnitude of 25 times the monetary gains of those with incomes under £1,000 a year, who represent roughly 40 per cent. of the employed population.
  Embarrassing though such revelations might be, that is no reason for this neglect. I still believe that by far the greatest omission is the failure to relate social service expenditure to any model of priorities of need. Obviously what is required is a network of comparative data about available resources for individuals on a family, neighbourhood, regional and class basis by which social allocations could be awarded to provide best value according to certain stated objectives.
  Mr. John Nott: Surely the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that if he were responsible for running the country he would put in a document of this sort all the information he is requiring and thereby restrict his activities and his room for manoeuvre five years ahead?
  Mr. Meacher: It is precisely to bring the public into what the Government are doing, to make the exercise a real one as opposed to the charade it is, that I would wish to do this. Some attempt is made to do it at present. The Government's social survey has certainly done some of the groundwork to prepare this kind of pattern in certain areas, but entirely unsystematically and without the gearing of a social plan. I believe that only a fully-fledged Department of Social Planning perhaps incorporating the Central Statistical Office and within an enlarged Ministry of Social Welfare, could devise a proper allocation of resources.
  1586
  Contrary to what the hon. Member has said, if this or some similar system is implemented, or until such cost-benefit analysis as may well be going on behind the scenes is made public and Ministers have the courage of their convictions and make their planned objective clear, in spite of all the superficial improvements in the White Paper it must remain a charade concealing the reality.
  7.15 p.m.
  Mr. Cecil Parkinson: I listened with great interest to the hon. Members for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher) and Ashfield (Mr. Marquand). They made a point which has been made repeatedly, namely that so much more ought to be included in this White Paper, and that the Government should in every area apparently outline their objectives, their methods, and report to us on the results. One is left with the impression that if this White Paper included all the things for which we all ask we would meet once a year to debate the White Paper, we would know exactly what the Government were trying to do, what they had achieved and what they hoped to do. Yet throughout the year, day after day, we have our chance to ask Ministers, and in the course of debates, to question them and to find out their objectives.
  Mr. Marquand: Surely what the hon. Member has said is based on a very naïve view of the effectiveness of parliamentary Questions. Many of us have tried to find out by means of parliamentary Questions, information which is actually contained in this White Paper but have been told that it was impossible to provide it. When the Expenditure Committee, armed with all its resources and expert assistance, forces the Treasury to come along and give evidence it turns out that the objections formerly held to be insuperable against the giving of this information do not hold water and, lo and behold, here is the information in the White Paper.
  Mr. Parkinson: I would agree with the hon. Gentleman that this is an improvement on previous years, that we are getting more information, but it is not our only chance to get such information. The object of Parliament, if it has an object, and we all believe that it has, is for us to come here, question

  1587
  Ministers and debate with the Government about their priorities, aims and objectives. I do not wholly disagree with the hon. Gentleman. I know his unbounded admiration for the hon. and learned Member for Lincoln (Mr. Taverne), but we cannot expect everything of this Committee nor can we expect everything in this White Paper, and we must not undermine the rest of the workings of Parliament by demanding that the Government should outline the whole of their programme in the White Paper.
  Listening to the right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) making a very amusing speech—I am earning a reputation as a humourist in my constituency by repeating his 20-year-old jokes—I felt he made two points which were unworthy of him. First he said we must use the social services in a contra-cyclical way, we must turn Government expenditure on roads, hospitals, on the infrastructure, we must pay out more in pensions and social benefits. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) asked what happened when the cycle began to go the other way. Would there be cuts? The right hon. Member said that that would not be the case—there were plenty of areas of fat for the Government to cut. He was a member of the Government that spent a lot of time trying to cut expenditure. Our Government came into power and did a wholesale review of expenditure. He owes us a little more than to say simply that there is plenty of fat. He has made a pretty unreasonable and unfair suggestion in that it raises the hopes of people who will not be able to be helped in that way.
  He came up with another unrealistic suggestion about the regional bank which would have a capital of £1,000 million and would make interest-free loans to people in the development areas. The idea must sound attractive in many ways, and I am sure it would get a good headline in Manchester tonight, but it is not particularly relevant at the moment because the problem is not a shortage of cash. As he said earlier, it is a shortage of confidence.
  1588
  I do not see what the creation of a bank which is prepared to lend cheap money would do to improve the confidence which he said was the crucial factor. It could have the opposite effect. This was illustrated recently by the financial director of a large international company who said that what worried him when he heard of immense incentive being offered to firms to go to a development area was that it almost blighted an area to be singled out too much. People ask themselves whether this is because the area is wholly unacceptable. I do not think the right hon. Gentleman's two suggestions, the extension of social service payments and the £1,000 million regional bank, were offered any more seriously than much of the rest of his speech.
  I have listened to the whole of this debate and I have heard two excellent speeches from the Chairman and Vice-Chairman of the Expenditure Committee. I listened with admiration but with a growing unease. One could not help but admire their determination to discharge their duties, their enthusiasm for the job, and their objectives of getting at the guts of the Government five-year strategy in key areas of bringing in an important democratic innovation, of producing a major change towards democratic control, all of which are wholly welcome.
  I listened to the Chairman of the Committee who explained that his object was to reinforce the ability of hon. Members to play a part in the formulation of policy. The Chairman and the Vice-Chairman were rightly proud of the achievement of the Committee in putting forward suggestions which have resulted in a tremendous improvement in this year's White Paper. It is much more meaningful and much easier to read, in spite of its amusing inconsistencies, and it enables one to go some way towards getting at the guts of the Government's five-year strategy.
  Some hon. Members were thrown into confusion, by the exchange between the Chief Secretary and the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) and poor Mr. Wynne Godley must be wondering whether all that research was really worth while. If the projections a few years on are on the basis of current decisions, and if inevitably in the succeeding years

  1589
  there will be major changes, as there were this year, many of the long-term projections of Mr. Godley and much of the hard work which went into producing them become almost worthless. Perhaps we should content ourselves by talking more about the immediate years ahead and not putting too much stress on the longer-term implications of the projections.
  The Chairman and the Vice-Chairman stressed the importance of their work and their determination to proceed with it. When hon. Members learn of the progress the Government have made towards implementing the recommendations in the Plowden Report, when they hear of the determination to put these recommendations into effect and to create a parliamentary machine to vet and survey the new Government approach to expenditure, they might wonder why I feel uneasy about the speeches to which I have referred.
  My unease came initially from a remark made by the Chairman about the inevitably rather amateur approach of the Committee and about the need for staff. I was left with the distinct impression that he was beginning to feel that the Committee had bitten off more than it could chew. How can a small Committee of this House, meeting once or twice a week, vet the work of the Government backed by the Civil Service? The answer is simply that it cannot. If the Committee thinks it can, it will be misleading itself and creating for itself future disillusion.
  There is a danger in the Committee even trying to do this. If the Members of the Committee feel the need to become so specialist, they will divorce themselves from the rest of us and it will be only a matter of time before there is a demand for another Select Committee to keep an eye on the existing Select Committee and to interpret what it is saying to the rank and file Members—
  Mr. Edmund Dell: I so much agree with what the hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Parkinson) is saying; in fact I said it yesterday. Is he aware how worrying the situation is? The Financial Secretary said yesterday that the Treasury has abandoned the detailed scrutiny of public expenditure. If
  1590
  we do not have a Select Committee on Expenditure doing the job, and we do not have the Treasury doing the job, where then are we?
  Mr. Parkinson: I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman is quite repeating what my hon. Friend said, the Financial Secretary said:
  "The Treasury's primary task is to exercise financial control over the entirety, and it is doing this with increasing success … With the best will in the world the Treasury cannot turn the spotlight on particular parts of the machine with the intensity that a proper scrutiny demands."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th December, 1971; Vol. 827, c. 1432.]
  That is quite different from saying that the Treasury has abandoned the attempt to supervise and control Government expenditure. The Treasury accepts that it cannot do it in the great detail that it feels might be necessary.
  Having complimented the hon. and learned Member for Lincoln, and having said what an important Committee I think it is, the hon. and learned Member must wonder, in view of my backhanded compliments, whether I believe there is a rôle for the Committee. I think there is, and it is this. First, to press for the improvement in the White Paper. I agree with hon. Members who have said that we must have access to information about resources and receipts and the Government's assessment of economic change if we are to make any sense of the White Paper. The Government admitted yesterday that the costings for future estimates are based on today's decisions. Surely we can have estimates of future receipts also based on today's decision, and hedged around by the assumption that there will he changes arising from Government policy and future decisions. That is an important rôle for the Committee—to continue to suggest improvements to the White Paper.
  Secondly, there is a most important rôle which the Committee really can play. In the last 15 years the accountancy profession has totally recast its ideas about auditing. From some of the results which have been emerging which have subsequently been proved wrong, it may be felt that we have not done enough in that direction, but that is another story. The emphasis is on taking a small selection of a company's activities on a random

  1591
  basis and getting down to the quality of the decision, why it was taken, when it was taken, how it was carried out and going straight to the heart of a smaller range of activities.
  The Expenditure Committee, on a part-time basis and properly backed up, can do this, and from this type of examination can produce information on whether the Government are carrying through the programmes which Parliament has authorised. The Committee is in danger of making the mistake of trying to mark the Government on the whole range of expenditure, and this simply is not within its capacity. I hope that the Committee will concentrate its activities not on the candle ends but on a random series of selective activities and go into them in immense detail. From this we shall get a worthwhile clue to how the Government are implementing the programmes which we have authorised.
  I quoted earlier the remarks by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary yesterday. I was going to end my remarks on that note. The Treasury in supervising and controlling Government expenditure is not geared to spotlight or highlight certain features of Government expenditure, and would welcome help in this direction. From that type of case-study approach the Committee could do a very important job, and certainly a much better and more relevant job than the one which at the moment I am afraid it has set itself.
  7.30 p.m.
  Mr. Eric Deakins: It is a pleasure to follow the speech of the hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Parkinson) since he sought to give some advice on procedure to the Expenditure Committee, of which I happen to be a member. I am sure all of us who are on the Committee are grateful for any help and advice we can get from the 580-odd members who do not serve on the Committee. We have before us a large task and have only just begun to scratch the surface of what needs doing.
  The hon. Gentleman mentioned case studies. He should be aware that individual Sub-Committees of the Expenditure Committee have already begun a number of case studies on particular parts of Government expenditure in
  1592
  depth. Although it may take a decade or more before we have covered all the major items of expenditure in a Department, this is the only long-term, rational basis on which the Committee should proceed.
  I agree with the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. More) that this is a poorly attended debate. Those of us who are members of the Expenditure Committee could have benefited from comments, informed and otherwise, of those who are not members of it because we are feeling our way very slowly. The reason may be that there is only a two-line Whip. I am told—and I do not know how reliable my information is—that the Amendment which has been tabled by my right hon. and hon. Friends is not even to be put to the vote. It is a crying shame to have the troops marching up to the barricades to the sound of gunfire and then marching away again. I hope that in future public expenditure debates, if the Opposition, of whatever complexion, choose to table an Amendment, they will support it on an important issue such as this.
  The fact is that we spend very little time debating how the Government spend the money they raise in taxation. In my view, Parliament spends far too long discussing how to raise money and far too little time in considering how it is spent. This may explain why there is always a big attendance for debates on taxation and a poor attendance for debates on expenditure. If and when we go into the Common Market, with the increasing harmonisation of indirect—and later direct—taxation and in the decades ahead with the removal of control of taxation from Parliament in Westminster either to an elected Parliament in Strasbourg or to officials in Brussels, hon. Members who now absent themselves from expenditure debates will have even less reason to attend the House of Commons. If they do not attend debates on expenditure, they will have little opportunity of attending meaningful debates on taxation in this Chamber.
  This is all rather sad. It is an example of Parkinson's law: our salaries go up at a time when there seems to be less and less work for Members of Parliament to do, at least in this Chamber.
  The Expenditure Committee has made a slow start but, under the leadership

  1593
  of its Chairman and the Chairmen of the Sub-Committees, it has at least made a sound start on the task of probing Government expenditure. It cannot be put at more than probing at the moment but it is a vital part of our job.
  In a debate such as this, those of us who are members of the Expenditure Committee are rather confused as to what we are supposed to be talking about. There have been two or three reports by the Expenditure Committee during the past year and I wish to allude to one particular report. I wonder, however, whether that is the intention of this debate. I know that we are supposed to be debating the White Paper but, judging from the knock-about political speeches we had from the two Front Bench speakers earlier this afternoon, I wondered whether we were not having another general economic affairs debate, of which we have so many in this House to such little effect throughout the year.
  I should like to take up some of the suggestions which have been put forward on how to tackle public expenditure debates in this Chamber. I would go further than those who suggest that we should have two types of debate. I think we need three, and I hope I may be permitted to outline them. First, we need to debate each year the work and recommendations of the Expenditure Committee, without reference to the White Paper. Secondly, we need a debate on the White Paper itself, after the Expenditure Committee has given its detailed consideration to the annual White Paper, followed perhaps by Treasury comments. That debate on the White Paper would in my view be concerned with the broad principles of allocation of Government resources between different Departments and with the overall level of Government spending in the five years ahead.
  There is also need for a third type of debate, namely, discussion of individual Departments. This type of debate, which need perhaps be only a one-day affair, would concern itself with the departmental priorities within a given level of expenditure for the Department in question. The reason why this debate today is so confused is that we are trying to do all three things in a two-day debate, and not very successfully.
  I should like to turn to the report of the Education and Arts Sub-Committee,
  1594
  on which I had the honour to serve as a member. I should like to deal with the concern felt by some of us about the relationship between central and local government in framing estimates. This came out strongly in the evidence given to the Committee by the local authorities. The local authorities were a little concerned that the P.E.S.C. figures were produced without direct reference to the local authority associations. The associations said in their memorandum that they were
  "unaware of basic assumptions which have been made in arriving at the figures".
  This is a little regrettable because surely local and central Government should be partners—albeit with the Government as senior partner—in the control of expenditure. It does not make for good administration if local authorities and their associations are to be left in the dark or confused.
  The local authorities said that they were particularly concerned about the projections for years four and five and said that these were
  "setting the pattern for some kind of rigid structure within which our future estimates will be considered."
  There was also a feeling among the local authority associations that the Department of Education and Science would be committed to the White Paper figures in the subsequent support grant negotiations and that the Department would be negotiating with one hand tied behind its back. This may or may not be the case. In fact, we had Treasury representatives and representatives from the Department of Environment saying that they were doing their best to allay some of the local authorities' anxieties.
  What emerged from the Sub-Committee's report was that a misunderstanding exists among local authorities as to the purpose of the Government White Paper and there was a great deal of concern about whether they were missing out on something by not being brought in.
  I should like to quote a question which was asked by the hon. Member for Clapham (Mr. William Shelton) when we heard evidence from the local authorities on 17th May this year. The hon. Member asked, at Question 599:
  "am I right in understanding that whereas in the past there was no consultation, in the

  1595
  future there will be?—(A) We have no guarantee yet. All we have is an assurance that there was a general desire to associate the local authorities' associations more closely with the development of public expenditure policy and that ways and means of doing this would be examined. The desire is there but no practical arrangements have been made."
  I think that all of us, including the Government, are feeling our way. I do not make this point as a criticism. I am pointing out that here is a matter which needs putting right in the future and that we must have regard to the feelings of local authorities on it.
  The second point on the relationship between central Government and local government on the P.E.S.C. exercise concerns the rate support grant increase orders that we get in November to take account of inflation and wage and salary increases after the rate support grant negotiations. When those orders came out in November last year they caused a great deal of extra work both at the Treasury and at the Department of Education and Science in adjusting previously prepared figures for the start of the P.E.S.C. exercise in January this year. If in future we are to have the rate support grant increase orders in November and the publication of the White Paper also in November, is not there likely to be a danger either of the White Paper not including the rate support grant increase orders or, alternatively, the White Paper having to be held up while account is taken of the new figures which have to be inserted for local authority expenditure as a result of the rate support grant increase orders?
  My third point on the relationship between central Government and local government is that there seems to be a dilemma for local authorities about management techniques, and they are very much looking to the central Government for guidance. We are all aware that one of the main tasks of the Expenditure Committee must be to ensure that in each Department of the central Government there are effective management techniques for controlling the vast volume of Government expenditure. It follows from that that there should also be effective means of controlling expenditure at local authority level and that the management techniques now being developed, albeit
  1596
  rather slowly, should be made known to local authorities as soon as possible.
  In the course of our evidence we were told by the Association of Municipal Corporations:
  "We have not learned yet how to use management techniques at the broad local authority level."
  That is a confession of ignorance. At the same time one cannot criticise it, because it is only recently that P.A.R. and P.P.B. techniques have started to be developed in central Government. One would like to see them more widespread, and perhaps this will happen in time. But necessarily it affects relationships between local authorities and the central Government. The sooner the central Government can control expenditure properly, the sooner local authorities will be able to do likewise.
  I turn to the specific points about education which emerge from the Second Report. Education is the second largest spending Department in the Government We are investing money at the rate of about £3,000 million a year. It is an investment and not just expenditure. We are investing in human beings. Our major concern in the Sub-Committee on Education is to see that we are getting value for money. Unlike the situation in most other Departments, this is extremely difficult. One is dealing with expenditure which involves human beings. It is difficult to work out cost-effective analyses, and so on.
  There are three points I wish to make. The first is that trying to get value for money means that one has to ask whether the money is being spent in the right way and whether the money could have been better spent in another way to give a better and higher rate of return on the investment.
  In education we are like babes in arms. We have to feel our way very slowly. We realise that education is a tricky political issue. When one starts talking about value for money in terms of output of graduates, teachers, people from sixth forms and people leaving school at 16, one is treading on delicate ground.
  The tendency to insist on value for money in checking on all Government expenditure must affect education whether we like it or not. The difficulty is that the tools do not exist yet whereby

  1597
  we can say what is value for money in education. One can use measures like the intermediate output, the number of graduates that we produce and so on. But one does not know whether producing more technically qualified graduates is better than producing graduates of a different kind. One does not know whether it is more desirable to expand higher education than, say, nursery education or primary school education. We do not know the answers.
  The second point on value for money is how we assess it. I have mentioned planning programmes and budgeting, which the Department of Education and Science is looking at closely. But it will be some years before the Education Sub-Committee will be able to say that not only has the D.E.S. got a measure of both intermediate and long-term educational output but that it is one on which there is wholehearted agreement both in this Chamber and outside. As I say, when we deal with human beings we are dealing with a problem which is not necessarily susceptible of quantification.
  My third and final point on education expenditure is that it is a tragedy that we spend only £2½ million a year on research and development in education. That is less than one-tenth of 1 per cent. of the education budget. If a firm with a turnover of £3,000 million a year was spending that very small amount on research and development, it would deserve to go under. We should be thinking in terms of 2, 3 or even 4 per cent., especially with the pace of education change and technological advances in matters like new teaching methods.
  We have to concern ourselves not only with the priorities between spending on one item and spending on another. We have to look at the long term, and that means developing effective methods of assessing value for money, ensuring that the money we spend justifies itself and that the future money that we spend in five or 10 years' time is justified on the basis of an effective and comprehensive research and development programme now.
  7.47 p.m.
  Mr. Tom King: It is a pleasure to be called immediately after the hon. Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Deakins), not least because he was good enough to issue an invitation to
  1598
  those who do not serve on the Committee to participate in this debate. Since I am not a member of the Committee and since I approach the debate with some trepidation, since a mystique seems to surround the debate, I do really feel I need an invitation from a member of the Committee to take part in it.
  A weird and secret society seems to have been formed. As my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Parkinson) pointed out, we have been all for disclosure and more accountability to Parliament. We have now formed a new body to whom the disclosure has to be made privately and not widely to the whole of Parliament. The secret society seems to have practices which are all its own and which are not normally appreciated and understood by the ordinary run of humble Members of Parliament.
  I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman drew attention to one very strange convention. I refer to the extraordinary practice of putting down a ferociously critical Amendment which must require positive action on the part of the Opposition and then, suddenly, in the most timid way, deciding not to press it to a Division. Unfortunately, I missed the very opening sentence in the speech of the right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever). But I have taken the liberty of checking on it. I appreciate that in his usual felicitous way he glided over it by saying that it expressed an attitude of mind rather than any positive intention to vote must plead ignorance; it is obviously part of my apprenticeship to learn about this sort of situation.
  However, in examining the Amendment tabled by hon. Gentlemen opposite I find it inconceivable, if the terms of the Amendment represent what they really believe, that they will not force a vote. Or is this another example of an Opposition of words but not of action? We are left to draw our own conclusion why hon. Gentlemen opposite are not taking the matter further.
  Mr. Harold Lever: I thought I made it clear, though only in a sentence, that we tabled the Amendment not for the purpose of forcing a vote, which would seem to us to be inappropriate on a Government Motion to take note of a White Paper to which many of my hon.

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  Friends are in principle not unsympathetic. The purpose of tabling the Amendment was to make possible and to encourage a somewhat wider-ranging debate of areas on which we have already voted in the clearest possible manner in condemnation of the Government.
  Mr. King: I expected a facile and equable answer from the right hon. Gentleman and I must accept what he says. There was a foul rumour in the Lobby that, because hon. Gentlemen opposite had been unable to keep their supporters here, it was decided last night that a vote would not take place today. As I say, we must accept the right hon. Gentleman's explanation.
  The right hon. Gentleman was unfortunately temporarily away from the Chamber and therefore did not hear the criticism from his hon. Friends for lowering the level of the debate to a narrow party political battle, instead of considering the wider philosophical implications that an opportunity of taking note allows. I have no doubt, however, that this point was also fully discussed before the Opposition adopted their attitude in the matter.
  The hon. Member for Walthamstow, West cited Professor Parkinson. The other weird aspect of the secret society that I encounter is the fact that the Chairman of the Committee, my neighbour, my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann), described the White Paper as the most important State document of the year. As I survey the Chamber, I suggest that we are encountering not the Parkinson's law to which the hon. Member for Walthamstow, West referred, Law No. 1, but the Parkinson's law of diminishing interest—that as the size of the subject increases, the interest of the audience diminishes.
  If this is the most important State document of the year, then, considering the extraordinarily large sums that are involved, Parkinson would no doubt be able to demonstrate how it is necessary to have, for the purpose of discussing such a document, the smallest parliamentary audience of the year, and that we seem to have today.
  I welcome the White Paper, though I have some real reservations about it. For example, my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr. More) said rather cynically
  1600
  that nobody reads the document and that that is at any rate one safeguard. Several suggestions have been made about the way in which one should read the document, one being that one should not take it too seriously, certainly not in relation to the years beyond 1972–73.
  I am pleased that my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) is in his place because I was impressed by the force of his arguments about many of the dangers that lie in this document. We are told that the first two and a half pages are a hymn to flexibility and that there are in the White Paper all the caveats and cautions about the way in which it should be read. The hon. Member for Walthamstow, West pointed out that local authorities do not understand this. They believe that this is, in fact, the programme for the next five years. There must, therefore, be an element of commitment in this, and this is extremely dangerous.
  I underline what my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West said so eloquently on this issue. It was a privilege to hear him utter in such an expert manner the sort of remarks that I would have made if he had not made them. Or perhaps I should say, to put it another way, that it was gratifying to note how he grasped opportunities that I would have missed.
  I recall in particular the points he made about the political element that there must be in the White Paper, the fact that no Government could put out a document of this kind which lacks political presentation and that, from the growth rate point of view, it is inevitable that the Government will tend to overestimate the resources that will be available because of their desire to present what seems to be a politically acceptable growth rate. This same effect occurs in certain elements of expenditure. It is natural for the Government of the day to want each expenditure item to look as attractive as possible, particularly in desirable areas such as education, health and pensions, and when that happens one is bound to start to build up commitments.
  On a cynical note, it would be interesting if we could get an utterly objective minority report from the Treasury.

  1601
  Perhaps we could appoint one gentleman who would be given total immunity to put forward a projection of what he thought would actually happen, totally devoid of political presentation.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow suggested that the White Paper should have a preface on the front page. While I do not think I could accept my hon. Friend's political slogan, I can accept the thought behind it. The slogan on this White Paper might be "Handle with Care. Only for qualified personnel." I say that because while the first two and a half pages may not be read and understood, the White Paper is widely accepted as being a forecast of what will happen.
  It was made clear by my right hon. Friend last night that this is not an attempt to reflect future policy decisions. It is clear that the Cabinet will not take four years' holiday in the coming period. There will, obviously, be changes in the situation. We know, therefore, that what we have now will not be the situation in years to come because there are bound to be many significant changes.
  I wish briefly, as a total hostage to fortune, to make a few suggestions about where I think the main deviations will occur and when we come, as some of us will, though not in the same proportions, in four or five years' time to debate the situation as it then is, we can compare it with what is predicted in this White Paper. These are not necessarily my choices but represent an honest assessment of where I think particularly significant variations will occur.
  The first is in overseas aid. I find it inconceivable that within five years—recognising the problems that there are in the world today and the growing consciousness of the need to do something about the situation—this 1 per cent., limited target which is reflected as a major target, will any longer be acceptable. I would expect that by general consent we would be moving towards a much larger contribution.
  Second, in agriculture, we have seen enormous deviations from forecasts in the last two years. My right hon. Friend found himself unexpectedly well off last year, but this year he faces a totally different situation.
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  If one looks under the trade headings one sees items that will be phased out. Is it sustainable that there will not be any new items that will be started? With a growth, perhaps for political reasons, of European co-operation, will we say, "No more help; no more research, no more aid for new projects in this time"? Is this the run down or will there be European scale projects which we are prepared to support? There is nothing in the White Paper about this.
  Under the section on redundancy costs, in this particular area I have had all too much personal experience of dealing with payments under the redundancy scheme. We may see an advance in this scheme in the years ahead. I was sorry that the right hon. Member for Cheetham took a slightly simplistic view of the unemployment situation and the problem which faces us. I am very concerned that this may prove a much more deep-seated and basic problem, and we may have to accept that the basic transition, or the time lag between losing a job, perhaps for reasons of redundancy, and finding another one, may be greater. This may produce a need for a rather drastic reappraisal of the scales on which the redundancy scheme are based. As many hon. Members know, in many industries the redundancy schemes do not bear much resemblance to the present basic State scheme. I think that there will be a major move to upgrade them across the board.
  Dealing further with the basic structural problem—if this proves to be the case, on the unemployment side—we shall need some much more imaginative measures for pensions related to early retirement. The impact of that on my right hon. Friend's figures could be colossal, if we have to start making much more adequate provision for early retirement and possibly for a much more adequate pension level in toto.
  We have this projection, which is now surrounded by all the caveats and explanations. At the same time, it commits far too far ahead and it seems to be accepted by far too many people—local authorities, other Departments and other interests—as being the projection for expenditure.
  We have a tiny item, which seems so ludicrous as to be hardly worth including, in the contingency items for five years

  1603
  ahead, when it is admitted that the whole thing is open to the widest possible variations, suddenly, out of some accountancy fetish, we have included contingency items as though they would be the little balancing items that would regulate the whole thing. What we need is not contingency items but, if this projection is to be meaningful, an increasingly massive strategic reserve of resources which can be deployed as the new requirements develop.
  With those more general thoughts, and with apologies for intruding on this very private scene but having appreciated the opportunity and, I hope, reflected one aspect of the way in which hon. Members who are not members of the Committee can participate, I welcome my right hon. Friend's White Paper. I recognise its improvement. I am not churlish about the efforts made on this matter. I recognise the need for better information, but I recognise also the very serious dangers in presenting information in this way.
  8.4 p.m.
  Mr. John Roper: Like the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Tom King), I am somewhat reluctant to enter into the debate, but for opposite reasons. As a member of the Expenditure Committee, I shall have other opportunities elsewhere to discuss the material contained in the report. The bulk of the time of this two-day debate should be taken up by hon. Members such as the hon. Gentleman, who are not members of the Expenditure Committee and will not have the opportunities that we have of examining the White Paper and the other documents in greater detail.
  The hon. Gentleman's remarks have been very stimulating. I hope to refer to some of them. First, I resist his suggestion that we are a secret society—although the Treasury sometimes gives that impression in the way in which it draws up White Papers. I make one reference to that. In the report of the General Sub-Committee we provided a glossary of some of the terms used in the White Paper. We believe that this has been of value to hon. Members. But I was sorry to see that in this year's White Paper the methodological appendix which appeared last year, and which explained some of the terms, such as "relative
  1604
  price effect" and others, which are somewhat strange to people coming upon them for the first time, has disappeared; people refer to the previous year's White Paper. The White Paper should be complete in itself, with a glossary, so that someone coming upon it for the first time can find a way around it more easily. Otherwise we are open to accusations, as the hon. Member for Bridgwater said, of being something of a secret society.
  Like my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Deakins), I am unhappy that we shall be unable to divide the House tonight. I thought that my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) was very agile in his defence of the reason for not pressing this matter to a division. I know how good he is in "take note" debates. I remember his remarkable contribution in a "take note" debate earlier this year on another subject, where he took note in all sorts of directions. But, more seriously, we have not yet found the proper way to organise this debate to get the interest among our colleagues that the subject should have.
  The hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Parkinson) said something very important when he referred to our amateur approach. I believe that the members of the Expenditure Committee must remain amateurs. If they start to become professionals, they will be a secret society quite unable to communicate with anyone elsewhere in the House. We must see our job as one of trying to communicate some of the things that we have discovered to the rest of the House, to ensure that disturbing patterns in expenditure are spotted and discussed.
  A few days ago, in a different context I was looking at the report of the Haldane Committee in 1919, 50-odd years ago. That Committee recommended not only that there should be a variety of estimates committees looking at different departmental estimates but also an Officer of the House to be an examiner of estimates, to fulfil a similar function to the Comptroller and Auditor-General for the Public Accounts Committee, to go through estimates or, as we now have it, the expenditure White Paper, to examine and try to find out the disturbing trends to bring these to the attention of

  1605
  the Committee so that the Committee could report to the House.
  As the right hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) said yesterday, it will be important for the Expenditure Committee to build up an adequate and satisfactory staff so that it can do this monitoring operation on the expenditure projections and can discover when things are going in directions which perhaps have not been noticed, and bring this to the attention of the whole House.
  There are great difficulties in this debate. Much in the White Paper is inevitably technical and does not lay itself out for a normal debate. Either the debate becomes too wide and diffuse or it becomes too narrow and particular—ven down to the degree of S.T.D. exchanges in one hon. Member's constituency.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. William Rodgers) referred earlier to the desirability, perhaps, that the general sub-committee of the Expenditure Committee should have a quick look at the White Paper and report to the House before the debate. That would be a useful innovation, and one which I hope we shall be able to take up next year.
  I want to comment on two innovations in the White Paper and then discuss two serious omissions. First, we have this year a number of figures for estimating changes between the previous year's Estimates and this year's. It seems—this was pointed out by Mr. Godley in The Times yesterday—that the phrase "estimating change" could mean one of a number of things, and more information would be useful.
  It could mean a demographic or a meteorological change—the sort of thing to which the hon. Member for Bridgwater was referring when he spoke of changes in agricultural expenditure and in the road programme. In a good year, more roadworks can be undertaken. It may be a demographic change in the fourth or fifth year in the need for schools, hospitals and even housing, or there may have been technological improvement in doing a particular piece of work or doing it with fewer resources, or it could be a straight error. It would be useful to know which category is being referred to.
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  The other innovation is the one mentioned by the Financial Secretary yesterday when he discussed the figures at volume and cost which now appear in the report. I am not sure whether these are innovations or merely new names for something which was in the report last year. As for figures at cost, the use of the word cost "may be ambiguous. Presumably the concept is similar to the economist's idea of opportunity costs—the share of the nation's resources which are being taken.
  Mr. Patrick Jenkin: The difference between a measurement of percentage increase in cost and a percentage increase in volume is that the cost figures take into account the relative price effect. It is in no sense an opportunity cost. It is an attempt to measure the growth in the cost of the public expenditure programmes, because the relative price effect has to be applied in order to achieve the result which will actually be the turnout.
  Mr. Roper: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that explanation. My suggestion was that, once one applies the relative price effect to the volume figures, one gets an idea of the total resources needed in the years to come. This approaches the concept of opportunity costs—the share of the nation's resources which are forgone and cannot be used for other things but we could pursue that matter in Committee or elsewhere.
  Several hon. Members have asked why we have a White Paper. The P.E.S.C. exercise is clearly useful for the Treasury and has been going on for many years, long before we had it presented to us as a White Paper. It relates to the control of expenditure, but apart from the fact that we can see the relative magnitude of different programmes, I am not sure how far the White Paper itself helps us to allocate priorities. On occasions like last year, when there is a change of Government, the changes which we see in the figures show the relative priorities of the outgoing and incoming Administrations, but within the lifetime of any Administration I am not sure that the figures which we get each year give us much information about priorities.
  I do not agree with my hon. Friends who believe that one can trade off one programme against another. We have

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  not really got the necessary cost-benefit studies to know what is happening if one gives up a mile of motorway to double the expenditure on the family income supplement. One cannot evaluate the outputs of those two alternative expenditures.
  The great difficulty about the White Paper is the gaps which remain. The Financial Secretary knows, because this was raised last year, that many of us feel unhappy about the lack of information on resources. If one wants to expand the family allowances or the road programme, it is not particularly sensible to say that one has to give up so much school building. One must also consider the effect of raising taxation, so one needs projections of revenue in a White Paper to have useful discussions about future patterns of public expenditure.
  The other inadequacy of the White Paper is that it does not cover all the expenditure satisfactorily. Some of the evidence that the general Sub-Committee had before it from Mr. Brittan and Mr. Jay in their memorandum referred to a tax expenditure budget. If the hon. Member for Kensington, South (Sir B. Rhys Williams) had been here, he would have spoken on this topic, I am sure: I know that it is very near to his heart.
  Still excluded from the White Paper are many forms of tax allowances and reliefs which have been introduced for social or economic purposes, and their value is effectively a form of Government expenditure. An obvious example is investment grants and investment allowances, different ways of doing what may or may not be the same thing—but one counts as expenditure and the other does not.
  A more sophisticated example, considered in passing by the Sub-Committee, was the question of the tax allowance on mortgage interest. It would be a misuse of the English language to call it a subsidy, but we considered whether that allowance, which did not appear as expenditure but would if we had a tax expenditure budget, should be considered in the same way as payments to building societies to cover the reduced rates of interest charged to those people who take out a mortgage under the mortgage option scheme.
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  The payments made to building societies, which have exactly the same economic effect as the tax allowance to taxpayers who have mortgages, rate as expenditure. Again, it shows the need for a tax expenditure budget to get a picture of the way in which Government expenditure and allowances affect the operation of the economy.
  On a more recent and topical matter, if the Motions to be taken on Monday week on Members' remuneration and other matters are carried and include proposals for expenses allowances this would be treated as an increase in public expenditure. But there will probably be reductions in the tax allowances claimed by hon. Members, which would be shown only if we had a tax expenditure budget.
  These three examples show the need not only to consider expenditure as it has been traditionally considered but to have a rather wider picture, which would come from a tax expenditure budget, showing the ways in which we encourage certain economic and social policies by means of tax allowances and incentives.
  All we have at the moment is the volume of public expenditure. The Minister of State could not answer a question by his hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne) about the share of public expenditure in the gross national product, whether or not it is rising or falling. Unless we have much more satisfactory figures of the expected growth of gross national product, we are not even able to ask the important questions. Admittedly, there are some figures for what the Minister of State refers to as "potential productive potential" and these are far more satisfactory.
  I realise that problems might be created for the statisticians in the Treasury and for the Central Statistical Office on the question of tax expenditure because the form of presentation in the past has been tied to the theology, as it were, of the National Income and Expenditure Blue Book, and it is probably heretical to say that we should move away from the Blue Book practice in the ways I have described. I gather that the Chief Statistician's hair has already turned white at the reclassification of national income and expenditure included on the final page of the White Paper. If that is enough to turn a chief statistician's hair white, perhaps what I might suggest would be too

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  much for the Treasury to adopt in the coming year.
  But I am not convinced that the traditional categories of the Blue Book are the best way of looking at this expenditure on the so-called public sector industry. I hope that the Treasury, which has responded well in this first year to the suggestions of the General Sub-Committee of the Expenditure Committee, will look at the question of a tax expenditure budget and perhaps next year we will have a fuller picture.
  8.21 p.m.
  Mr. David Mitchell: A number of hon. Members have suggested that the timing of the debate is unfortunate and that they would prefer it to have taken place in a couple of months' time. I take a contrary view. I think that this is the right time to have it. I am particularly glad that it has been held at a sufficiently early stage in the Government's financial thinking about the next Budget to allow—who knows—Treasury Ministers in framing the Budget perhaps to take note of some of the suggestions made in the debate.
  I listened with considerable interest, as I always do, to the right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever). I was fascinated by his suggestion that he is opposed to counter-cyclical public expenditure on capital account. He mentioned that there was no means of controlling the cyclical nature of private sector expenditure. He suggested that the Government should not balance out the rise and fall of private expenditure by controlling Government expenditure. I hope I have not misconstrued him.
  Mr. Lever: The hon. Gentleman is being rather loose in his language in saying that I suggested that public expenditure should not be used in this way. I said "capital public expenditure".
  Mr. Mitchell: The right hon. Gentleman said that capital public expenditure should not be used in that way. I hope the Opposition would recognise that this would mean running the economy at a lower tempo and at a lower growth rate than would otherwise be able to be achieved because, if one has a steady level of Government capital expenditure, one has to have in hand a certain flexibility
  1610
  to take up inevitable movements in the private sector capital expenditure. I do not think that that was what the right hon. Gentleman intended to urge upon his colleagues, especially in discussing an Amendment dealing with unemployment, but it would be an inevitable consequence of following what he suggested. I will come back to that in connection with what I regard as the causes of our present problems.
  I was delighted that the right hon. Gentleman said that the Government could use opportunities such as the present one to boost expenditure in certain other directions. The Government have done so, and very substantially, through, for example, the largest pension increase ever and through the family income supplement, thus breaking new ground in a sector in which the expenditure will not go into savings, which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned as uncontrollable, but inevitably, because of the type of person into whose hands it is put, will be spent immediately. Again, the invalidity and disablement benefits and other measures have done exactly the sort of thing which the right hon. Gentleman, with his perception, called for.
  We are invited today not only to debate the Report and the proposed expenditure of the Government but also the Opposition Amendment which specifically refers to unemployment. Unemployment is a sensitive subject, certainly to me and my colleagues on this side of the House. There are now ensconced on the Opposition benches the right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham and the hon. Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Deakins). I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman is present and I listened to what he said with great interest. But the fact that there are only two of them sitting opposite speaks volumes—empty volumes—for the interest of hon. Members opposite.
  I want to turn to an analysis of the causes of the present unemployment as I see it, because the Amendment refers to unemployment. It is clear that since 1968 there has been an increase in investment expenditure in industry which has led to an increase in the underlying productive capacity of about 3 per cent. per annum. If one secures a growth in productive potential without actual increases

  1611
  in production—the situation which has occurred since 1968—one sees a fairly long-term trend. I have taken the increase in the growth of industrial production as a percentage over the previous year since this seems to me the best way of making a comparison with the growth in the underlying productive capacity.
  The figures are very illuminating. In 1968 the growth of industrial production as a percentage over the year 1967 was 5·2. In 1969 over 1968, it was 2·6 per cent. In 1970 over 1969, is was 1 per cent. In 1971 over 1970, it looks as though is will be 1·5 per cent. Faced with that situation it is perhaps wise of so many hon. Members on the Opposition side to have absented themselves from the debate on their unemployment Amendment and perhaps they will not press it to a Division. It is clear that the fall-back in production and the widening gap between productive potential and take-up started in 1968 and continued at an increasing rate until the present Government came to office, and there is now the beginning of a reversal of that trend.
  It follows that we have a long way to go before we catch up with the increase in underlying productive potential and that, therefore, the Government can go a long way before they get to the point at which they will impose a total demand on labour sufficient to reduce the unemployment figures to a substantial extent. I say "total demand" because there are important factors within the demand. I want to come back to them.
  That seems to be one of the key background causes of the present situation, but there are others to which one ought to draw attention. From 1964 to 1970 wage levels rose by 7·6 per cent. per year but the index of mechanical engineering prices went up by only 4·2 per cent. per year. What has been happening is that relative to the cost of machinery the cost of labour has been growing at a faster rate, with the result that over the last six or seven years there has been a shift of balance of advantage in favour of mechanisation. The rising cost of labour to that of mechanisation has tilted the scales against labour and in favour of mechanisation.
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  That may or may not have been part of the intentions of the previous Government. It is in line with the philosophy of wanting greater productivity and greater mechanisation, but one of the consequences of that is that when it has been allied to a greater increase in labour costs it has, in many cases, meant that it has been worthwhile making the change to mechanisation which it was not worth making when the balance between those two indices was different.
  Third, there is the well-known problem of the hoarding of labour. For many years firms hoarded labour because they took the view that if they sacked some of their employees, when demand picked up again, either seasonally or due to an improvement in the economy generally, they would not be able to get those men back. But once the unemployment figure went over the 500,000 mark, as it did in July, 1969—and that had nothing to do with the present Administration—it no longer made sense for anybody in the boardroom to say that the firm must not dismiss labour that it did not really want but must hoard it, because when there are over half a million people unemployed labour can be obtained quite easily. There has been a structural flushing-out of hoarded labour and that is partly responsible for the present situation.
  I want now to say a few words about what I see as the answer, so far as it lies within the power of the Government to provide it, and it must be accepted that the power to provide the answer does not lie entirely in the Government's hand. Part lies in the terms of economic and financial policy, in terms of today's expenditure debate and in terms of specific, shorter-term remedies.
  I listened carefully to what was said by my hon. Friend the Minister of State this afternoon when he opened the debate on behalf of the Government. We are faced with a situation in which there is a need for demand-led growth. I avoid using the word "reflation" so as to escape the charge of stoking up the fires of inflation. I believe that demand-led growth, given time, would go a long way towards bringing down the present high levels of unemployment.
  We were told this afternoon of £164 million being spent on infrastructure in

  1613
  development areas, about housing improvement grants amounting to £53 million, about a capital programme and accelerated programmes for roads, and so on, amounting to £163 million and about a shipbuilding programme. All that is excellent because it will help to stoke up demand, but the second leg of all this is extremely important, and that is that we must see to it that the increased demand is satisfied by British firms in this country.
  To ensure that, it is very important that we look at how unemployment arises and whether we are doing enough to create future jobs, because I do not think it is static. It is not a case of company X paying off so many workers and then, when demand picks up, taking on so many workers. There is something much more structurally changing and alive occurring in our economy.
  There are old industries which have been and are dying all the time. The railways and the mines are contracting and so are other industries. In the past the contraction of old industries has not caused widespread unemployment because that has been matched by new firms and new industries starting. As they start they take up the unemployed who come off the other jobs. It seems to me, however, that at the moment we have not got that growth of new industry and small industry that we ought to have to take up the slack which is developing on the other side. No matter what the Government do in terms of demand, they will not really make a dramatic change in the rundown of the mining industry or other dying industries; and propping up a dying industry is a very short-term way of dealing with the problem anyway. I ask myself, therefore, what can the Government do to try to help the small businesses that will be the big businesses in the future?
  Mr. Deakins: The hon. Gentleman is dealing with a very important point when he talks of the changing pattern of unemployment and demand. Is he aware that the position is even more serious than he has suggested in that whereas previously workers who were laid off retained their skills while unemployed and were taken on in the next phase of boom, the position today is rather different? Skilled workers
  1614
  are being made redundant and many are deciding to move into less onerous occupations where skills are no longer any use—into the service industries for example—so that their skills are completely lost to the economy. When the economy picks up again we may well find ourself suffering a shortage of skilled labour.
  Mr. Mitchell: I find myself in partial agreement with the hon. Gentleman and I shall come to that presently. It seems to me that the Bolton Report shows very clearly that it is the small business of today that is the growth potential for employment in the early future. Page 29, for example, shows how so many of the large companies of today have grown from small companies. Therefore, I want to make three suggestions about encouraging small businesses.
  First, let us look at the position of the small manufacturing company which pays S.E.T. to the Government and gets it back again so that it is for six months stood out of quite a substantial amount of its working capital. I suggest to the Government that they should repay that very much more quickly, if not virtually instantaneously, because in this way capital is locked up at a time when the Prime Minister, the Government and everybody in a responsible position are appealing to industrialists to go ahead early and make their investment in order to be able to satisfy the expected increase in demand in the future. Here is a practical step towards helping to do that.
  Secondly, I do not believe we have yet come to the end of the road in reducing corporation tax. Profit is, after all, the driving force of industry, the mainspring on which it runs, and we ought to do still more to encourage it. Thirdly, I come to capital gains tax, particularly in relation to the smaller business, because, as it now stands on the Statute Book with no offset for inflation, it is a major disincentive to people starting up in business. One of the motivations which makes people start a business is that they will work it up and then pass it on to a son to give him a better start than they themselves had. How many times among medium and larger-size businesses does one find this pattern? Somebody starts in a workshop in a back street. It grows, it is passed on to a son and it goes on. A great many of our numerous unquoted

  1615
  companies have been built up on that basis and have provided a very large amount of employment.
  A person in that kind of position will surely say "Is it worth it? When the time comes for me to pass it on to my son, I must pay out 30 per cent. of the increased value of my business in cash". He has not got it in cash. It is in the business working capital. If the underlying asset is in a farming business, for instance, it will increase in value; the land rises in value but there is not the amount of cash in the business necessary to pay the capital gains tax unless part of the farm is sold.
  Thirdly, there is a real reduction in the amount of capital available for business if, every time the business changes hands, capital is taken out of it. It is wrong to assume that every business is sold because the proprietor wants to retire to the South of France or wherever it may be. Many businesses are sold so that the proprietors can make different careers. There is no point in a man selling one business and starting another, however, if he must pay 30 per cent. on his increased capital and, therefore, start his new business on a smaller scale.
  All these elements in the capital gains tax add up to yet another barrier to starting business. People say to themselves "Heads the Exchequer wins, tails I lose. Why should I bother?" It is because it is essential that there should be much greater and much more vigorous growth of new businesses and small businesses turning into large businesses that the Government should pay more attention to this question in their fight to bring down the level of unemployment.
  I had intended to talk about other matters relating to unemployment but other hon. Members wish to speak. I hope to have an opportunity in future to to reply to some of the points made by the hon. Member for Farnworth (Mr. Roper). There is much that we ourselves can do in our employment policies and by means of the Department of Employment to help to secure fuller employment in the coming months and years.
  8.43 p.m.
  Mr. John Nott: As I wish to make a very brief speech, I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke
  1616
  (Mr. David Mitchell) will forgive me if I do not refer to his remarks.
  I want to refer to the function of the specialist Committee. It may seem a little disloyal of me as a Member who served on the Expenditure Committee to ask at this stage of our debate whether it has all been worth while. Unlike my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), I do not wish to question the White Paper itself. Unlike him, I have no history of anti-Plowdenism, but I can believe that, had I had my right hon. Friend's experience, I might possibly feel as he does on that exercise.
  I have now had a little experience of a specialist Committee over one year. I confess that I started as a sceptic of the whole exercise, but I attempted to keep a fairly open mind.
  If I may say this without any disloyalty to my hon. Friends, the hon. Member for Farnworth (Mr. Roper) was the member of that Committee of whom I would say more than of any other, with the Chairman, that he had the time and the application and did his homework and thus was able to perform a most valuable rôle. My doubts about specialist Committees, particularly an Expenditure Committee, are now reinforced. My preliminary conclusion, although I am still a serving member of the Public Expenditure Committee, is that the whole exercise may be retrograde and may lead to very little extra parliamentary control of the Executive, but at the same time it does lead to the expenditure of an inordinate amount of everybody's time.
  Last night I took the opportunity of looking back on the minority comments of the Fourth Select Committee on Procedure in 1964, and in particular the view of the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot), for whose opinions on the subject of specialist committees I have always had a sneaking respect. He said then that he thought that a proliferation of parliamentary committees to examine Government work in progress might impede rather than aid the basic political functions of Parliament.
  Views must differ as to what the function of Parliament is, but most of us were not sent here to pose as experts. If we had wished to be experts, we would have

  1617
  chosen a much better job, or at any rate a much more profitable one. I believe that we are sent here to perform the function of politicians, which is to assert our own personal views on how, in the broadest terms, we wish our society to develop and how it might use its influence in the wider world. In doing so, we should also represent in our various ways the basic prejudices, emotions and wishes of the British people. If we wished to influence the ongoing Administration of the country and monitor continually the executive rôle of Government, we would have striven to reach the commanding heights of the Administration by seeking a career in the Civil Service.
  I do not criticise the speech of the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) yesterday, but I think that he wants to run the country from this House. He said:
  "We need to question civil servants again and again so as to force them to justify their actions to us."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 8th December, 1971; Vol. 827, c. 1350.]
  Although his wish to get the legislature, the House of Commons, more involved in the executive rôle may have certain arguments to commend it, it is neither, in my view, practical nor desirable from the point of view of the House.
  Mr. Joel Barnett: The hon. Gentleman is perhaps doing my hon. Friend an injustice. My hon. Friend's point was that the Sub-Committees should be doing the task of seeking the information from the Civil Service, and the House itself would, as I myself said, have a separate debate to discuss the broad issue of the priorities.
  Mr. Nott: I am not seeking to criticise the hon. Gentleman, but merely to underline that I do not share his point of view. There is very little time left for debate, and I want to give my hon. Friends a few minutes to speak, so I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I do not take up that matter.
  The prize of politicians is political power and influence—the ability to do their thing. Their rôle is not to act as administrators and allow their powers to be emasculated by the Executive by the scrutiny of endless figures. The whole exercise of the Expenditure Committee may be an exercise in nibbling away at the edges of executive power.
  1618
  I did want to refer to the evidence of Sir Laurence Heisby to the Select Committee on Procedure, when he made the very valuable point that, after all, the Civil Service has a job to do. If it was ever to come about—and again I refer to the remarks of the hon. Member for Ashtonunder-Lyne—that Parliament should attempt to parallel the procedures performed in Whitehall, I would suggest that the Civil Service and the Treasury would hardly have much time at all other than to appear before Select Committees and Specialist Committees of the House of Commons.
  What of ministerial responsibility? I think that in some of our questioning we unwittingly began to undermine the theory of ministerial responsibility. We were examining the civil servants who appeared before our Committee as to why, for instance, we had no receipts side in the White Paper. This was a policy decision of the Government.
  Our Specialist Committees could have an advantage for ministers. They could strengthen ministers in their struggle against any inertia and obstruction on the part of their officials, but it is not, I would suggest, the job of this House to make the job of ministers easier.
  I quote again from the remarks by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Ebbw Vale in the minority report on the Select Committee on Procedure when he said:
  "More committees upstairs are likely to nurture the miserable deception that more and more issues can profitably be taken out of politics."
  I wonder whether anyone could keep an Expenditure Committee of the House of Commons out of politics. By its very nature it is at the centre of the debate between the parties of the House. I conclude by echoing the views of the hon. Gentleman the member for Enfield, West (Mr. Parkinson) who made a most admirable speech. He had doubts about the whole exercise of the Expenditure Committee and they were the doubts of his predecessor in that constituency over many years. Mr. Iain Macleod was converted by what was the fashion when I became a member of the House in 1966, that somehow the House of Commons must get more involved in the examination of the executive processes of Government. This debate today may see the turn of fashion back to where it was

  1619
  for many generations—great scepticism on the part of the House of Commons about the rôle of Specialist Committees and whether this is what we should be doing.
  8.54 p.m.
  Mr. Kenneth Clarke: In my short speech I would not have the temerity to follow my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Nott) into the criticism of the Committee on which he worked. Criticisms of the working of that rather monastic body come best from members of the Committee and not from outside.
  Mr. Nott: I did not mean to criticise my colleagues on the Committee. That was not my purpose. I was examining the function of specialist Committees as such.
  Mr. Clarke: To be brief as regards the White Paper, I am in the same position as one of my hon. Friends who spoke earlier. I think that I welcome the White Paper or, at least, what I think are the purposes in producing it year by year.
  One of the difficulties under which we labour is that Parliament and its Members are to a slight extent only involved in the formulation and consideration of policy. The very nature of parliamentary procedure means that the results of formulations are presented to Parliament either for approval or for rejection. The policies already having been decided, they are put to the House for the vote, exposed to pressures and modifications during their parliamentary passage, but the initiation of policy is something with which Members are rarely concerned.
  The White Paper is an attempt to present to the House the choice of priorities being made by the Government and it is in choosing those priorities, looking forward over a considerable period, that the formulation of policy comes about. Having said that and dealt in a compressed way with the whole procedure of producing White Papers on expenditure estimates, I doubt how much further the White Paper takes us in its present form.
  In the choice of priorities, the first choice a Government has to make is on the total level of public expenditure and the amount which we are to take out of the nation's productive potential—to use this year's description of it—by way of
  1620
  public spending. The White Paper makes clear that at present we are seeing a restoration of those cuts in public expenditure which the Government were making a few months ago, at considerable political cost to themselves. Restoration of the level of public expenditure is coming about in response to short-term economic needs. It is entirely right to do this and to increase public expenditure and investment when private investment is lagging so badly in the recession from which we are now suffering.
  The overall level of public expenditure will always be subject to short-term pressures of this kind and I share to a great extent the doubts expressed so clearly by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) about the future figures in the White Paper. Those figures will be just as responsive to short-term pressures on the Government of the day. To the extent that the figures try to indicate that the Government are keeping to their good intentions of trying to reduce the overall level of public expenditure in the economy, I welcome them. To the extent that they are a serious and precise estimate of the level of public expenditure in five years' time, I take them with a pinch of salt and beg leave to doubt their accuracy.
  The second set of priorities is between particular services where one sees where the Government's main efforts have been made. I welcome the information given by my hon. Friend the Chief Secretary in opening the debate that one thing which emerges clearly from the White Paper is that taking the average annual increase in real terms, the educational programme is rising at about 4½ per cent. per annum while the health and social services are going up by over 5 per cent. One of the things that an examination of the programmes as a whole shows is where the Government's real changes in priorities have been. It shows how easy it is, by, for instance, taking an individual issue such as the school milk cut and making a great deal of it, to distort the Government's real priorities, which have been entirely beneficial in education, health and social security.
  The other important thing, however, is what choice of priorities is being made by the Government within each field, for instance, education, health and social

  1621
  security. This debate comes at a time when it is almost impossible to make judgments of that type because the Select Committee has not yet considered the White Paper. What we are given in the individual sections on education, health and social security are fairly Delphic and obscure utterances that do not help very much until they are exposed to much greater scrutiny. Dealing with education the White Paper forecasts of expenditure show an anticipated heavy shift of capital expenditure and current expenditure to higher education, particularly universities. This is only to be expected. What is not clear is on what basis that shift will be made or what policy decisions are being assumed in producing these figures.
  At the top of page 50 in paragraph 5 the most extraordinary sentence occurs:
  "The higher education forecasts reflect planning assumptions based on the size of age-groups, levels of attainment and policy considerations."
  Nowhere is one told what the planning assumptions or the policy considerations are. The vital policy consideration that will determine the level of expenditure on higher education is whether or not the Government are committed to providing places in higher education upon demand for all those who attain the necessary qualifications. Whether that assumption has been made is nowhere indicated and the figures are described in such general terms in the text that they give no insight into the way the Department is going.
  There is no room in these figures for any new commitments which the Government might undertake. The hon. Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Deakins) referred to nursery education. To make a choice of priorities, one does not simply want these figures; one wants to know what would be the impact of a decision which might or might not be taken in two or three years' time to embark on an expanded programme of nursery education on these estimates for spending in the other fields of education.
  I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West that one danger is that the production of these figures might give a built-in advantage to existing commitments. If, for instance, one believed that nursery education was at the moment of higher priority than a commitment to Robbinstype
  1622
  higher education, a Government would be loth to agree because they would already have committed themselves to these estimates to higher education. In education, where the forecasts are already very high and expensive, it would be difficult for new commitments to get in.
  I have those reservations on the White Paper, but any information which the House can have which enables it to debate the choice of priorities, which is the whole backbone of politics, is only to be welcomed. Having listened to right hon. and hon. Members who have taken part in the proceedings of the Select Committee, I feel that the House has a long way to go before it has this material at its disposal.
  9.2 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Houghton: I apologise for having been absent from the debate for one-and-a-half hours this evening, but we had an unusually long meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
  Had the proceedings of the House of Commons been televised, I wonder what the viewers would have made of the last two days. They would probably have blamed hon. Members for not being here, but the criticism could perhaps more properly be directed to the way in which we deal with this complex business. A discussion on public expenditure is either highly political or extremely professional, and it is difficult to know into which category this debate falls.
  We have been chided by hon. Gentlemen on the Government side, and disappointment has been expressed behind me, because we have failed to press our Amendment to a Division. I make no bones about it. The explanation is that last night we had to revise our judgment about the nature of the debate. It has not been a political debate but a discussion between practitioners, craftsmen, accountants, quantity surveyors, forecasters. It was described to me as being like a gathering of bridge enthusiasts. It has been a debate between those who have become more or less accomplished in the art of financial prediction, a highly sophisticated financial edition of Old Moore's Almanac. A layman coming into the Chamber might listen for

  1623
  a while and then leave the Chamber saying, "This is not for me; I have a pressing engagement in my constituency." So the Whips on both sides decided, I think wisely, that it would be unreasonable to ask hon. Members to stay if, for reasons we all understand, they were unable to take part in the debate and had more pressing things to do.
  Mr. Barber: I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that Conservative Members are here in force and will be delighted to vote against the Amendment.
  Mr. Houghton: The right hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor, should not deceive himself. I have just been round the House to see who is here and the right hon. Gentleman could not muster his forces at present.
  The idea was that we should put down a nice firm Amendment to the Government Motion, that I should wind up with a robust, political speech, rollocking the party opposite and exciting the enthusiasm of my right hon. and hon. Friends, and that then we would go into the Division Lobby in good heart. Well, it has not turned out like that. But I warn right hon. and hon. Gentlemen that I shall make exactly the same speech I should have made if the Chamber had been crowded. But it will be on a lower key because I must not excite the emotions of the empty Conservative benches on this theme of public expenditure.
  One thing to be noted with pleasure in this debate is that we have heard the end of much of the nonsense we used to hear about public expenditure being bad, but private expenditure being good. We now realise that in a highly complex and modern society, with social and industrial activities as complicated and as intricate as never before, there is a rising demand for State regulation and State action. So public expenditure must rise; I think we all agree about that. It may not necessarily rise in proportion to total national resources, but rise it certainly will.
  I give one example of a new area of State activity in public expenditure, namely that in connection with pollution. In past years we have poured our sewerage into the rivers and seas and have
  1624
  allowed smoke from industrial chimneys to rise into the air; we have seen the devastation of land and the pest of litter and all the rest of it. And we have given little attention to the remedies for this growing menace to the public good. There was a time when Governments, for some reason, left smoke abatement and control and control of litter to the process of private Members' Bills—as if those matters could be equated with abortion and divorce. Governments were not willing to embark on Government legislation to control matters which are now regarded as an essential part of pollution control.
  To listen to right hon. and hon. Members opposite, especially those on the Treasury Bench, on the subject of public expenditure, one would never think that behind them has been some of the most disgraceful propaganda on public expenditure in recent years. They have indulged in so much deception. One envisaged them in bowler hats, with umbrellas and dispatch cases, walking down Whitehall, respectable gentlemen—yet they are the front men for a most dangerous propaganda machine.
  What I have in mind to do in this debate is to establish beyond peradventure the fact that this Government inherited from the Labour Government a budgetary surplus on revenue account of £2,000 million for the financial year 1969–70. This was the gift of a Labour Government to the Tories. Labour's good housekeeping did two things. It got Britain out of the red on our overseas trading account. We built up a large surplus on our balance of payments, and we did it at the cost of considerable austerity, devaluation, unemployment and political unpopularity.
  We betowed that inheritance upon the present Government. When this Government came to office, Britain was in a strong position at home and abroad. The Tories had never had it so good. They were absolutely in clover. They had a huge trading and financial surplus handed to them on a plate. Within three months, they were bringing out the most disgraceful political claptrap under the guise of a White Paper entitled "New Policies for Public Expenditure" which were really the old Tory policies in a new form.

  1625
  They pretended that reductions in public expenditure were a necessary condition of reductions in taxation and that reductions in taxation were a necessary condition of economic recovery. We were led to believe that tax cuts would provide incentives to business, industrial and individual effort. The fable went further. The overdue modernisation of many old primary schools was said to depend on raising money from higher charges for school meals and the withdrawal of some free milk in schools to pay for the additional expenditure. That was all set out in the White Paper. It was all nonsense.
  They tried to show that by saving £20 million in 1971–72 on school meals and £38 million by 1974–75, the money could be found for a primary school building programme of £28 million this coming year. To reduce taxation, it was said that savings of £88 million could be achieved by 1974–75 on welfare milk, prescription charges, dental charges, ophthalmic charges and charges to go into galleries and museums. There was a nice selection of humanitarian savings if ever there was one, and all in the interest of reductions in personal and company tax. The poorer people got cuts in welfare services while the better off gots cuts in income and other taxes.
  The naked truth is that none of the cuts in welfare services was necessary to enable any of the cuts to be made in taxation. It was all rubbish that the Government put across in their White Paper. All the tax reductions would have been possible, and more than possible, without putting up school meals by a penny.
  What is more, all the money saved by these welfare cuts has been spent on other things since. The Financial Secretary said yesterday that the money for these things had been spent on other things. But, if one could chase money round and see exactly where it finished up, one would know more truthfully whether that was so.
  I am sure that all right hon. and hon. Members read the Business Section of The Times. An article on 26th November bore the heading,
  "The great turnabout on State spending."
  Not everything that the Jay family does meets with my approval—[Laughter]—
  1626
  but one must acknowledge the great skill of Peter Jay. In that article, he wrote:
  "Mr. Barber has now restored the whole of the cuts in public expenditure which he announced with so much political trumpetry a year ago. This is the most simple and dramatic message to emerge from yesterday's Public Expenditure White Paper."
  Hon Members: Read on.
  Mr. Houghton: Very well.
  "The political irony will not be lost on those who have been heavily engaged, for and against, in public debate over the past 12 months about such issues as school meal charges, free school milk, museum charges, and fair 'rents for council housing."
  I will read on yet further:
  "For better or worse it was all for nothing so far as making room for reductions in taxation and increased incentives to hard work and entrepreneurship are concerned. The Chancellor could have made all his tax cuts for the purpose of reflating the economy without a single cut in Government spending."
  Have I read enough for hon. Gentlemen opposite?
  The Financial Secretary has said—he said it yesterday—that the Government have taken money out in one place and have put it back in other places. It is equally true to say that the money they took out by way of higher charges for schools meals, medicines and so on, they gave away in cuts in personal taxation, mostly to the better-off, as well as in company taxation, by halving S.E.T. without reducing prices and by not equating cuts with increases in other expenditure, or at any rate by doing so only to a very small extent indeed. After all, these were to have been net cuts in public expenditure.
  We have been reminded in the debate that the Government have reduced taxation by £1,400 million in a full year. This has been put to us like some sort of Tory magic—like a master stroke by Ali Baba. It was, in fact, done out of their inheritance—[Interruption.]—and had the Labour Party been returned to power, and had not this false propaganda temporarily dulled the political sense of many people in this country, Labour would also have reduced taxation, and much else.
  Mr. Barber rose—
  Mr. Houghton: The right hon. Gentleman really must take it.
  Mr. Barber: I beg the right hon. Gentleman, if he really believes what he is saying, to vote for the Opposition Amendment.
  Mr. Houghton: I am in a much better position to say what another Labour Government would have done than is the right hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.] Whatever else we may or may not have done, we would not have got our priorities so wickedly wrong as to snatch the milk from the very mouths of the children simply to reduce taxation. This is where the essential difference lies between the political philosophy of hon. Gentlemen opposite and ourselves. And where have all their policies got us?
  This grievous problem of the baffling rise in unemployment, which is now loosening the purse strings of the Government, has resulted in a sort of mini public spending spree. But there is no doubt that on both sides of the House we are confronted with the perplexing problem of the structure of industry and the shakeout of a good deal of labour, which is now becoming unemployed at a time when production is rising, although slowly, and when wages, salaries and prices are all rising. This is undoubtedly a perplexing situation in many respects and my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) at least had a prescription, whereas hon. Gentlemen opposite have none.
  I am sure that when hon. Gentlemen opposite go home at night they hide their grief and cry along into the night, "Oh, John Meynard Keynes, where are you now that we need you so much?" They literally do not know what to do, with rising unemployment alongside rising production and higher wages. Who would have thought it possible a couple of years ago that we should have had severe inflation and 1 million unemployed at the same time?
  There is a possibility that we are begining to observe a new pattern in the structure of employment in this country. We may now be seeing two groups of workers, the first comprised of those in production—those in manufacturing exports; the wealth-creating sector—where the skill and maximum mechanisation and automation may be found. That is where the big money may be. Another
  1628
  section of workers may be the wealth spending sector—the work in the services and all that is needed to make for civilised living, such as roads, houses and amenities, and the brightening up of the countryside and of the towns; the devotion of wealth to making Britain not only a healthy country but also a beautiful, desirable and civilised country.
  We may see that management may be interchangeable between the two sectors of activity. But it may be that the workers in the production sector, as the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Tom King) hinted, may find it necessary to have an earlier age of retirement or to move into the services sector for a few years before they finally retire.
  It will be in the services sector, any, way, that the bulk of public expenditure will be required. That is where it will have to expand. We have unemployed at present, but we can all go about the country and see an enormous amount of work which needs to be done to make Britain a better place in which to live. A new initiative is needed, and the new local authorities will be agencies for a good deal of it.
  In a question which I asked the Leader of the House this afternoon, I referred to the fact that yesterday the Prime Minister made an announcement at the meeting of the National Council of Social Service about more money for voluntary community services. This is very desirable. With the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) and the right hon. and learned Gentleman the present Mr. Speaker, I was a trustee of the Young Volunteer Force Foundation created by the previous Government. I was Chairman, and were were trustees for three years. Here is an example of the opportunities which young people can have for community service.
  We do not yet know what to do with our young children since we stopped sending them to war in their teens. Since we ceased to conscript them for military service we have been puzzled to know how to live with young people and meet their desires and their needs for fresh thinking and opportunity in our society. If we can provide scope for voluntary service which will channel into useful work and contact with society many who may drift off to less desirable pursuits and

  1629
  become inward-looking and selfish, we shall achieve a great deal towards this better society that we all have in mind. I hope sincerely that something will be done in that direction.
  Let us consider for a moment how we regard education as the birthright of all children. We must provide the maximum educational opportunity for all young people and endeavour to give them the best so that they may realise their potential. There is no cost-benefit analysis there. Education is justified for its own sake. But the moment that they leave school we cease to be interested in them. The State says, "Find a job if you can, and if you cannot, register at the local employment exchange; and if you have not paid your contributions as a student you will get no unemployment benefit." So there is scope for public expenditure. We can all think of directions in which we could do it, but we have to do by education what other countries less desirable than ours do by indoctrination and coercion.
  Public expenditure has not been the curse it has been made out to be, because it is the only way of buying civilisation, the only way of giving aid to other countries. Yesterday my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) lifted the level of the debate from a statistical and accountancy analysis of the controls of public expenditure into the policies for which more public expenditure is needed.
  In many respects, the aims of society obviously cannot be realised by private effort and expenditure. This can be done only by the expression of a collective will and by collective action. Public expenditure is, on the whole, the benefactor of the people, and we should not despise it or run it down. We should elevate it among the calls on individual resources to equate with people's own desires for a better life for themselves. Let the Tories therefore stop humbugging the people about public expenditure and appealing to baser instincts, selfishness and self-seeking for political ends.
  9.26 p.m.
  The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Maurice Macmillan): Until the right hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) started, I felt that the tone of the debate was critical, not particularly
  1630
  of the Government, the House or the Select Committee but rather of our procedures generally. It was almost like a parochial church council debating a revised prayer book, which is received with general approval but with some doubts as to some of the contents. But the right hon. Gentleman succeeded in changing the tone. I see exactly why he decided that it was not worth voting. He also decided that it was not worth debating public expenditure, let alone the White Paper. In one part of his speech, when he was attacking my right hon. Friends, I thought that he had mislaid his notes and had found instead those which he had prepared for the debate on public expenditure in November last year.
  In making his attack, the right hon. Gentleman quoted The Times. I would merely quote back at him, in defending my right hon. Friends against his charge of having the wrong priorities, that the New Society, not a paper notable for its enthusiasm about Tory policies, writing not about a few weeks ago but about the White Paper and our present public expenditure plan, said that the programme showed that we were for once thinking intelligently about social priorities.
  The improvements made in the White Paper have been welcomed by most hon. Members. Some wanted more clarification, more detail and more analysis, notably the hon. and learned Member for Lincoln (Mr. Taverne). The hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Joel Barnett), on the other hand, felt that he had got lost in a maze of technicalities and that there should be a rather more general exposition.
  The right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Dell) suggested that we had brought forward the timing of this debate for political reasons. It was nothing of the sort. This two-day debate was always due to take place in the autumn, as a result of a promise to the Select Committee on Procedure by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. It was a firm commitment. I know that my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) would have preferred to have had it done differently.
  There has been some disagreement about the nature of this debate. The right hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) felt that the speeches and

  1631
  discussions were getting too narrow and too detailed and did not deal sufficiently with the general policies. The hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt), on the other hand, complained that there was not enough detail about the National Health Service. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dover (Mr. Peter Rees) thought that there should be more on nationalisation. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Eye (Sir H. Harrison) thought that the White Paper did not answer enough of the questions on defence.
  If there was disagreement on the nature of the debate itself, there was also uncertainty about the purpose underlying the debate. The hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) felt that Parliament and the Select Committee on Expenditure should assume at least some of the responsibilities of the Government and be prepared to work under some of the constraints which are put upon the Government. This was refuted by a number of other hon. Members, notably the right hon. Member for Birkenhead, who warned the General Sub-Committee against the danger of becoming what might be called a "mini D.E.A.". I thought that that advice, coming from one with the right hon. Gentleman's experience, should be listened to by those concerned.
  There was also a certain amount of disagreement about the nature of the public expenditure we are discussing and what its purpose and meaning are. Nearly every speaker in the debate agreed that the White Paper was the most important document in the parliamentary year. Nearly everyone who spoke said that the House should elevate the debate into one of the most important functions of the parliamentary year. Obviously, that view was not shared by the majority of our colleagues in the House.
  It was even said that the debate was far too important to be opened by the Chief Secretary or even by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and that to fulfil its functions and its purpose it required the Prime Minister to open it. Yet in contrast and contradiction to this, speaker after speaker, including some who agreed that this should be a very important parliamentary occasion, pointed out that Treasury Ministers as
  1632
  such were not capable of answering many of the points raised because they dealt in too great detail with departmental matters the programmes of which are set out in the White Paper.
  So we had the contradiction that on the one hand this was the great parliamentary occasion and on the other hand it was a detailed discussion of detailed programmes. I think that some hon. Members even regretted that it could not be mixed up with the general debate on the management of the economy from which, in some mysterious way, deductions could be made about a proper level of public expenditure.
  I think that this confusion is partly due to uncertainty about the nature of the White Paper, the programmes it describes and the status of the figures in it, together with uncertainty about the rôle of the Select Committee and its Sub-Committees in relation to the whole House. The hon. Member for Waltham-stow, West (Mr. Deakins) suggested that the solution to this lay in dividing the process roughly into three, working upwards, as it were, from the programmes to the totality of public expenditure and then to a major debate on the rôle of expenditure in the economy. There was a great deal of disagreement about how we should handle this matter in future, but I much agreed with the hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. William Rodgers), who suggested that it might be cleared up by discussion with the Expenditure Committee in the course of the year.
  The hon. Gentleman made an interesting point in passing. I did not agree with what he said about Concorde but I think he had a genuine point of principle when he talked about the method of handling public money invested in a concern such as that in the private sector with international implications and said that it ought to be looked into.
  Of course public expenditure is important, and so is the White Paper, but I am not sure whether it is important in the sense in which that word has been used by hon. Members taking part in the debate. I am not sure whether the debate itself is important. Much of the detail which is raised in it, and much of the discussion which is started in it, could be better handled and examined through the work of the Sub-Committees. It is

  1633
  there, if anywhere, that it is possible to examine programmes, as many hon. Members want to do, on a kind of cost-benefit basis. It is there that the kind of problems raised by the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) could be discussed in greater detail.
  There is doubt about the more general aspects of the White Paper. It does not convey any news. By definition, as a rule it has nothing new in it. It is the result, not the cause, of policy decisions, and the policies it describes are themselves continuing in time and, therefore, are not essentially new policies. The White Paper analyses and displays policies in terms of the expenditure required. It gives the House the basis for understanding and expressing views on it, but it has limitations and constraints, and neither the House itself nor the Expenditure Committee can ever take over the function of the Government to formulate policies and to answer for policies to Parliament, as my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Nott) said so clearly.
  I do not think that the Government must seek to limit the right of hon. Members to criticise policies or to urge new policies on them by imposing on hon. Members, through the Expenditure Committee, the same sort of constraints with which the Government themselves have to deal. It would be wrong, impracticable and unconstitutional if Parliament, in any shape, in the House or in a Select Committee, saw itself as a kind of second Government because, if it did, that would destroy the freedom of action of hon. Members to represent their constituents.
  During the debate there was argument about why public expenditure was rising at an average rate of 3·2 per cent per year. I think that in some way the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton, who developed this argument, thought that it was possible to derive policies from forecasts, to make a kind of plan and to find a theoretical level at which public expenditure should be settled. I do not believe that it works like that at all. The hon. Gentleman asked, "Why stick at 3·2 per cent?" in terms which suggested that he had in mind some sort of plan. The lamentable failure of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite when they tried that plan is sufficient warning against that approach, with its enormously
  1634
  rapid rise in public spending followed by equally savage cuts in programmes.
  The reverse of the fear that we were not spending enough public money was expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) who thought that we were going much too far and were running too big a risk. He developed his argument in a speech which I thought was as forceful and as logical as its premise was false.
  My right hon. Friend congratulated the Government on their past in order the better to castigate them for their present backsliding into the evil realms of overspending. He quoted the Chancellor's mini-Budget as having reduced public expenditure from 3·5 per cent. to 2·8 per cent. and the next White Paper limiting the average annual increase to 2·6 per cent., pointing out that it was below the rate of growth productive potential. He said that in October, 1970, and January, 1971, there was a transfer from the public to the private sector and scope for tax decreases; and so there was, and so there still is, but my right hon. Friend said that he regretted that November, 1971, was different in that the rise was too high and the average annual rise was greater. But comparing like with like, it is not.
  Taking the figures he used as a basis, quoting October, 1970, and comparing it with January, 1971, the figures in the table at the top of page 12 of the White Paper are as follows. In the January, 1971, White Paper the rise from the years 1971–72 to 1974–75 was 2·9 per cent. In the present White Paper that rise is 2·8 per cent.; and extending it by one more year to 1975–76, it is 2·7 per cent. Therefore, the actual average annual rise in public expenditure is roughly the same in this White Paper, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West has execrated as being extravagant and profligate, as it was in the White Paper of January of this year which my right hon. Friend praised as being wise and prudent.
  I believe that the new and more accurate method of presenting these figures shows an annual average rise of 3·2 per cent. But if that method were applied to the previous year it, too, would show a similar increase. One must apply like to like. The figure expressed in our

  1635
  new terms is 3·2 per cent. Expressed in the old terms it was 2·9 per cent. Therefore, my right hon. Friend's comparison is totally meaningless in comparing one with the other. He also complained that the programmes are rising faster than productive potential, and so some of them are—for health, personal social service and education—as they were in the last White Paper and in my right hon. Friend's White Paper in October, 1970. Those are the programmes which we always intended should rise. Those are the ones to which my hon. Friend the Minister of State referred in saying we had expanded public expenditure, spending where the need was greatest.
  The increase which my right hon. Friend expected need not continue. He was rather doubtful whether it was possible to limit public expenditure. The switch we have made, bringing forward public spending to help with unemployment, and the new expenditure to help with unemployment in the early years will not, in its nature, be continued in the later years of the period because it is confined to programmes that are physically to be finished in the period concerned. Therefore, the dramatic downward trend in the percentage of the rise in public expenditure which my right hon. Friend found so incredible is a reflection of a change in programme and not merely in calculation.
  The same sort of error underlies the anxiety of the hon. Member for West Lothian. He will forgive me if I deal with his point rather briefly and write to him later, if he so wishes. The hon. Gentleman was worried about Scottish education and said that there was a decrease between 1972–73 and 1973–74 of from £324 million to £316 million. It was in fact not a decrease, but an addition made as part of the Secretary of State's bringing forward £60 million of expenditure under the July additional works as described in paragraph 2 on page 62 of the White Paper. The amount for 1973–74 has not been cut. The amount for 1972–73 will be increased by over £20 million. If it were not for that increase, the figure would show a steady upwards progression over the quinquennium. That increase is not bringing forward expenditure from a later programme but is a total addition.
  1636
  The point made by the hon. Gentleman about the nationalised industries is rather different. Scotland is heavily dependent on new electricity generating stations; and it is difficult, given their enormous size and expense pattern, to prevent fluctuations. It is not possible to phase that expenditure so that it can spread regularly over a given period. I accept that it makes it difficult for those supplying this industry, particularly as they do not have a very large number of other outlets, and that it complicates their planning and their investment programme.
  I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept that this is in some sense an inevitable part of the nature of that industry and is not easy to remedy. It is precisely for this reason that we brought forward the power station at Ince, not for its immediate effect on construction and other work in Cheshire but because of the confidence that it would give to heavy industry in the North-East, enabling firms not to lay off their design and other staff.
  I therefore hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept that the later figures in the White Paper are bound to be somewhat vaguer than the earlier figures. This is true in any business or in any attempt to make forecasts on a rolling five-year basis. It is not possible to ensure that they have the same certainty as figures in the earlier period.
  I do not go along with my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West in assuming that the figures have no meaning. That takes altogether too pessimistic a view although it accords with my right hon. Friend's general attitude that practically everything is vanity—the White Paper, the House, the Expenditure Committee, the Plowden Report and this debate. Sometimes I think that practically everything that we are trying to do is, in the words of the preacher and of my right hon. Friend, nothing but "vanity of vanities".
  Mr. Dalyell: Then does it not become rather dangerous to publish this kind of figure at all—the Scottish public industries are only one example—at a time when so many members of the Chief Secretary's party are preaching the virtues of their having cut public expenditure? That is what misleads industry.
  Mr. Macmillan: What the hon. Gentleman must make clear is that we are preaching the virtues of cutting unnecessary public expenditure. In all our White Papers and in all the debates we have made it clear that we are not cutting capital programmes. I made this point in last year's debate.
  In great contrast to the cuts which the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) and other right hon. Members opposite were forced to make, we did not cut the capital programme. We made reductions and changes in priorities in public expenditure which enabled us to spend more on the necessities—hospitals, the old people, school building and all the many other things listed today by my hon. Friend the Minister of State and others.
  It is not true that we felt it necessary to cut public expenditure as such. Part of the purpose of reducing unnecessary public expenditure is to make more available where it is most needed. This is a question of an investment programme. It is very difficult, given the problems of estimating the demand for electricity, to expect from the nationalised electricity industry a greater degree of accuracy than can be expected from any private concern. If the hon. Gentleman does not like the figures being published, he is really saying that we must leave them out. They are part of the complex which comes within the public sector as it is now presented. Unless the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that nationalised industries should be excluded, there is no way in which we can publish these figures except on the basis that the last two years of the quinquennium represent expenditures less certain than the earlier periods. Those who read and study the White Paper must accept the fact which we and the previous Government have stressed repeatedly that the figures become less certain as time goes on. This perhaps supports the argument of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West and my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives that we should go back to annual accounting, because that is the only way in which we can completely solve the problem of the uncertainty of figures in the later years.
  The right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever), in opening the debate, spoke, almost for
  1638
  the first time in the course of the technicalities, about people and the effect of policies on them. He did not speak very much about public expenditure or the Amendment, and I now understand why. I thought his account of stage 1 and stage 2 of the Labour Party's economic policies nearly as gross a distortion of history as the account by the right hon. Member for Sowerby of the Labour Party's policies. There has hardly been anything like it since the concerted attempt to make the Princes in the Tower appear to have been murdered by Richard III.
  The Government of which both right hon. Members were members had an unprecedented record of doubling unemployment, of prices rising faster than ever and of public expenditure cuts which, as they themselves admitted at the time, were damaging to essential programmes, as ours were not—and all that with a massive increase in taxation. I do not wonder that with that record behind them they hesitated to press the Amendment to a Division.
  It is most disingenuous for the right hon. Gentleman to give the reason he put forward that the debate had become so technical that it was not worth voting about. He knows perfectly well that it was by agreement that the first day was technical and the second day was meant to be political, stimulated by political attack of right hon. and hon. Members. It was the failure of those political attacks of right hon. and hon. Members, hon. Gentleman, to develop any bite that led obviously to the need to call off the Division—
  Mr. Harold Lever: If the hon. Gentleman had subjected himself to the tedium of the whole of my speech he would know that what he has said was false and he would not have said it. The opening part of my speech, as he will see from HANSARD, before this battle in which we are alleged to have been defeated had even commenced, included a clear indication that we were not tabling the Amendment for the purpose of taking a vote.
  Mr. Macmillan: I see the point of withdrawing about halfway through a battle, but starting by withdrawing seems even odder. I see that one or two hon. Gentlemen opposite also thought the same.

  1639
  The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the question of transfer payments in public expenditure as a method of dealing with cyclical movements. There are certain difficulties in using transfer payments for this purpose, particularly when consumer demand is already rising and more specific measures, some of which I must admit the right hon. Gentleman set out in an interesting speech, are required.
  That difficulty does not apply to the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Meacher) who suggested that we should make more use of public expenditure for redistributive effects. I am glad the hon. Member mentioned that because it is exactly what Conservative policies have been geared to achieve—more selective help through public expenditure to areas where the need is greatest, including such experiments as the Secretary of State for Social Services has set out.
  A point which I must take up with the hon. Member was his argument that one item of public expenditure receives an increase whereas another does not. That argument highlights the fallacy in the way in which some hon. Members look at the White Paper. It seemed as if the hon. Gentleman believed that the level of policy was determined by a choice of how much a programme was to be increased in terms of cash when it is the other way. It is the policy decisions that are made and the White Paper projects, in expenditure terms, the effect of those policy decisions. It is important that this should be recognised to avoid the sort of misunderstandings we have had during the debate, which has nevertheless been a good one despite its obvious limitations and poor attendance.
  We have had many serious contributions and a certain amount of light relief. I am sure that the serious work which will continue in the Expenditure Committee will enable us to make better
  1640
  use of parliamentary time in debating the essential subject of public expenditure than has been the case in the last few years and tonight.
  Question, That the Amendment be made, put and negatived.
  Main Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That this House takes note of the White Paper on Public Expenditure to 1975–76 (Command Paper No. 4829).
  Mr. SPEAKER then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions he was directed to put by paragraphs (6) and (11) of Standing Order No. 18 (Business of Supply).

  CIVIL ESTIMATES, 1972–73

    VOTE ON ACCOUNT
    Question,
    That a sum, not exceeding £4,795,591,300, be granted to Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund, on account, for or towards defraying the charges for the Civil Departments, as set out in House of Commons Paper No. 14, for the year ending on 31st March, 1973.
    put and agreed to.

  CIVIL AND DEFENCE SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1971–72
  Question,
  That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £545,288,000, be granted to Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st March, 1972 for expenditure in respect of the Civil and Defence Supplementary Estimates of which notice has been given in pursuance of paragraph 9 of Standing Order No. 18 (Business of Supply).
  put and agreed to.

  DEFENCE SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE. 1971–72 (ARMY)

    VOTE A. NUMBERS
    Question,
    That an additional number, not exceeding 4,000 all ranks, be maintained for the Ulster Defence Regiment, as set out in House of Commons Paper No. 24.
    put and agreed to.
    Bill ordered to be brought in upon the first and second of the foregoing
    1642
    Resolutions by the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Patrick Jenkin.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND
  Bill to apply certain sums out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the years ending on 31st March, 1972, and 1973, presented accordingly and read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 42.]

  IMPORT DUTIES
  10.01 p.m.
  The Minister for Trade (Mr. Michael Noble): I beg to move,
  That the Import Duties (General) (No. 7) Order 1971 (S.I., 1971, No. 1971), dated 4th December, 1971, a copy of which was laid before this House on 6th December, be approved.
  The order has two main purposes. It implements the final stage of tariff reduction which the United Kingdom agreed in the Kennedy Round of Trade Negotiations. And it imposes import duties on certain cotton textiles imported from countries in the Commonwealth Preference Area, other than the Republic of Ireland.
  First, the Kennedy Round. The main elements of the agreement reached in the Kennedy Round Negotiations were welcomed by the whole House in May, 1967. A more detailed account was published in a White Paper in July, 1967. The Kennedy Round negotiations were the most ambitious attempt ever undertaken to lower international trade barriers, the objective being a 50 per cent. across-the-board cut in tariffs, with the minimum of exceptions.
  Thirty-two countries, accounting for about 75 per cent. of world trade, made tariff reductions. The United Kingdom granted concessions on 53 per cent. of its total imports, and other major participants, including the E.E.C., Japan and the United States of America, made broadly similar reductions. The average reduction in our tariffs on dutiable industrial goods from the E.E.C., Japan and the United States was closely in line with what we received from them. After implementing by this order the final stage of the reductions the average level of United Kingdom on industrial products from dutiable sources will be about 10 per cent. and in the case of the E.E.C. it will be about 8½ per cent., compared with about 16½ per cent. and 13 per cent. respectively in 1967.
  A few participants—for example, Japan, Canada and Switzerland—have already implemented their Kennedy Round obligations in full, Along with other participants, the United Kingdom has implemented its obligations to the extent of
  1644
  80 per cent. of the agreed reductions. The order now before the House implements the fourth and final stage, due to come into force on 1st January, 1972. The E.E.C. and United States are committed to complete their reductions on the same day.
  During the first three years after the Kennedy Round duty reductions began to come into effect, there was a remarkable increase in international trade. The value of industrial imports into the four major participant countries—the E.E.C., Japan, the United States and the United Kingdom—increased by 65 per cent. between 1967 and 1970 compared with 43 per cent. between 1964 and 1967. This increase was rather less dramatic than might appear at first sight because it takes no account of changes in the value of money. And it was not solely due to the Kennedy Round tariff reductions. But they undoubtedly played a significant part in bringing it about. I hope that despite current difficulties and uncertainties the world trading community will maintain the general impetus of trade expansion. We have all benefited from reducing trade barriers.
  We in the United Kingdom have long acted—and will, I hope, continue to act—in pursuit of liberal international trade policies. But we have to recognise at the same time that there are specially intractable problems in certain areas, and we have to have regard to the actions of other members of the international trading Community. It is with this in mind that I should now like to deal with the second main purpose of this order.
  For reasons which we gave yesterday, the Government have decided to retain in 1972 the present general system of quantitative restrictions on imports of cotton textiles. Nevertheless, we are still going ahead with the tariff on imports of cotton yarn and woven cotton textiles imported from the Commonwealth Preference Area, other than the Irish Republic, from 1st January, 1972. The decision to introduce this tariff was announced by the then President of the Board of Trade on 22nd July, 1969, and endorsed by this Government after taking office. It followed a recommendation by the industry's own Textile Council, after a two-year productivity and efficiency study, that the tariff would offer a margin

  1645
  of protection that was stable and predictable and would enable the industry to plan ahead with confidence. We still regard the tariff as a necessary long-term form of protection for the industry.
  The new Commonwealth Preference Area rates of duty introduced by this order are generally 85 per cent. of the existing most favoured nation rate—thus retaining some preference for Commonwealth suppliers. As a rough guide, they are generally, 6½ per cent. on cotton yarns where the most favoured nation rate is 7½ per cent.; 15 per cent. on woven cotton cloth against the most favoured nation rate of 17½ per cent.; and 17 per cent. on most woven cotton garments where the most favoured nation rate is 20 per cent. The levels of tariff imposed under this order are broadly in line with those of the Common External Tariff of the E.E.C.
  Knitted cotton cloth and knitted cotton made-up articles, which have never been subject to quantitative restriction, will remain free of duty from the Commonwealth Preference Area.
  The order makes some other less important changes which are nevertheless desirable. It makes, for example, a series of amendments in accordance with a recommendation of the Customs Co-operation Council. The House will recall that this body, of which we have long been members, supervises the international nomenclature system on which our Customs tariff is based. It recommends amendments from time to time in order to keep the nomenclature in line with technological development, and to resolve classification difficulties which have come to light in the course of day-to-day Customs administration.
  I will not weary hon. Members with a complete catalogue of what I might call the structural changes. They are described in the Explanatory Note to the order and if any Member has any question on any of them, I shall do my best to deal with it in my winding-up speech, if I have leave of the House.
  Because the tariff changes made by this order cover a very wide range of goods, the order takes the form of an order with a schedule showing the total United Kingdom protective tariff as from 1st January, 1972. This is expected to be the base date from which the tariff
  1646
  changes which are required by our accession to the E.E.C. will be calculated. The base rates of duty will be those actually applied on the same date. But all this lies in the future. Much remains to be done to complete the enlargement of the Community and to establish new relationships between those within the enlarged Community and those outside it. The Kennedy Round negotiations will not be the last tariff negotiations, and we look forward to playing a constructive part as members of an enlarged Community in further international trade discussions at the appropriate time. In the meantime, I am pleased to present in this order the conclusion of the most successful international negotiations which have ever been undertaken to reduce tariffs. I willingly pay tribute to the previous Government for their part in this.
  Before commending the order for approval, I should like to draw attention to an inaccuracy in the Explanatory Note. This states that the order consolidates the No. 7 Order of 1970, which was last year's big order, and the later amending orders. This is correct, with the exception that it does not consolidate the No. 8 order of 1971. Members will know that the order that we are discussing tonight is the second version of the General No. 7 Order of 1971. The No. 8 order was made in the time between the first and second versions of the No. 7 order, and I regret that its existence was overlooked when the Explanatory Note was repeated in this second version.
  The point was drawn to our attention by the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments, along with the need to make a further order to carry forward into 1972 the effect of the No. 8 order. The Select Committee on Statutory Instruments has been told that the necessary arrangements have already been put in hand. However, I should like to take this opportunity of saying how grateful I am to the Committee for its careful and helpful scrutiny and for drawing our attention to the point so that it might be put right.
  With that acknowledgement. I commend the General No. 7 Order for approval.
  10.11 p.m.
  Mr. Albert Booth: There are very important matters of merit involved in this order. Therefore, it is with considerable regret

  1647
  that I feel obliged to draw attention to a matter not of merit but of form. I do so only because I consider it to be a matter which is of concern to the House and because of a very serious principle involved in it.
  Before coming to that, I refer to the fact that notice of this business was not given to the House in the normal way by the Leader of the House in his business statement last week. Neither has a supplementary statement been made, regardless of the great importance of the order.
  As the Minister has said, the order is intended to replace the previous Import Duties (General) (No. 7) Order, 1971, Statutory Instrument No. 1813. That was laid before the House under the Affirmative procedure, because it made changes in a number of import duties. However, the affirmative Resolution was not moved within 28 days, and the order lapsed. It sank without trace. However, during the period in which the order was before the House, the No. 8 order was laid. That came into operation on 2nd December. Therefore I submit that it could not by any stretch of the imagination be said to amend an order which was made on 4th December, 1971, namely, the order that we are now considering.
  Clearly, this order does not do what it sets out to do and what the Minister explained that it achieved. As the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, the Explanatory Note is misleading in this respect.
  My difficulty arises from the fact that the Minister said that the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments had been informed that the Government had considered its report on this matter. I am Chairman of that Select Committee, and it is my knowledge that the Committee has not had an opportunity to meet in order to consider the Government's decision on the matter or the memorandum. In fact, the Committee met to consider this matter on Tuesday of this week. The Clerk of the Committee immediately wrote to the Treasury and a reply was received at once. Indeed, I was amazed at the speed with which the Department moved in the matter. However, it has not been possible to call another meeting of the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments to consider the Treasury's reply.
  1648
  While I do not wish to cast any doubt on the assurances given in the Treasury reply—to the effect that the error contained here will be put right subsequently—I suggest that it is a bad way for the House to do business to pass a piece of legislation knowing that it is not in a correct form, and passing it on an assurance sent to a Committee which has not had time to consider the assurance that the error will be put right subsequently.
  On a matter of this importance concerning a document which we are told will be the basis of calculations for future rates of duty under the E.E.C. scheme, we should have correct documents before us and we should not pass any Instrument unless it is correct. That is my first submission.
  My second point concerns the matter of principle which arises here. I am not suggesting that a wide range of duty levels are wrong. In fact, only one is wrong and as a result requires Amendment. The matter of principle is the way in which the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments is being treated. An increasing volume of delegated legislation is being placed before the House. It is, therefore, of the utmost importance that hon. Members have some control over, and opportunity to scrutinise, this vast volume of legislation.
  If any hon. Member cares to ask the Vote Office to supply him with every piece of delegated legislation and every Act passed by the House he will find, if he takes those documents home and makes two piles of them, that the pile of delegated legislation in any recent year is very much higher than the pile of Acts.
  It is natural that hon. Members will not readily address themselves to this task of scrutinising delegated legislation if, when they draw the attention of Departments to errors in Instruments, those Instruments are pushed through the House before the Select Committee has had a chance to consider the reply of the Department.
  For these reasons it would not be proper to pass this Order in its present form and, even worse, we should not be asked to approve of any Department informing the House that the Select Committee has been informed of the Government's decision, and that is the end of the matter. The House should have an opportunity of considering the report of

  1649
  the Select Committee, and until then it is not correct for the House to pass this order which is before it.
  10.19 p.m.
  Mr. Harold Lever: I am not rising in any way to hint at a curtailment of the debate, but to pass some general remarks before other hon. Members contribute to the discussion. First, however, I wish to express the gratitude of hon. Members to my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth), who is the Chairman of the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments, and I endorse everything he said.
  It seems rather remarkable that the Government should be treating the legal forms in this cavalier way and, what is more, treating the Committee that the House has set up to safeguard the interests of the House in matters of delegated legislation in this way. What is the point of having the Select Committee if we cannot have its views before legislation of this kind is brought before us, especially if its view, which is known to the Department, is that the legislation is technically deficient?
  Another point of general importance to which I cannot refrain from giving my warmest support is the fact that the right of this House to scrutinise Statutory Instruments becomes academic to a degree if, when so many Instruments can be rejected only by an affirmative vote, we cannot get an opportunity even to discuss them.
  The Government ought to be giving some thought to making this whole regulation procedure more generally democratic and effective. But the House is rather in the position of the nephew of one of the aunts in an H. G. Wells novel, who bought him a trumpet on condition that he promised never to blow it. The House's control over delegated legislation is roughly of the same order as that unfortunate child's control over his trumpet. I hope that something will be done about it, otherwise we shall have to raise the matter in a rather fuller House and with rather more vigour.
  On the substance of this matter, we welcome the implementation of the Kennedy Round, and I accept that there must be these reductions in tariffs that are appropriate to that Kennedy Round.
  1650
  I am a confirmed liberal in matters of international trade, and I wish to see the advancing liberalisation of trade continue. But at this point it is worth uttering a few words of warning about it.
  We have already moved, in international trade, to complaints about the liberalisation of trade where it has caused great difficulty for particular countries, notably the United States in relation to Japan—and I fear that we may find ourselves in similar difficulties in liberalised trade. These complaints are never thought to be reputable or reasonable by Governments if made in the form of saying, "We simply cannot stand up to the competition in particular areas, and the consequences of that competition will be too devastating if it is allowed total liberal freedom of action." But no one says that. What Governments tend to say, more reputably but not very relevantly, is that others have unfortunate trade restrictions which result in the aggregates of trade not turning out very fairly from the complaining country's point of view. But the truth of the matter is that the danger of the acceptability of liberal trade is not in the restrictions, some undesirable and some worse in some countries than in others.
  The danger is that in the modern world changes in productivity in particular industries, as between one nation and another, are so rapid that if they are allowed to impact they can restrain or discipline upon the industries of another country, which produces a ruinous situation.
  I give a simple example. If the Japanese motor industry, in perfectly fair competition, can extinguish the British motor industry over the next five years—which may be the case, for all I know—what will happen to the workpeople of Coventry? When they become unemployed in hundreds and thousands, shall we congratulate them on their sacrifice in the sacred cause of the international division of labour? They will not find that an adequate ground for satisfaction and rejoicing.
  The truth of the matter is that in our concern for the liberalisation of trade, which I absolutely support in general, we have blinded our eyes to the fact that it proceeds at a pace which does not create unacceptable social and economic hardship in particular countries at particular times. Otherwise we shall simply be creating new depressed areas, not only

  1651
  in this country but all over the world. We shall be creating depressed areas in some other country and the Japanese, for instance, will be creating depressed areas in Britain. Then we shall be turning loose all the brains of the country and having another debate on another expenditure White Paper—perhaps a three-day debate—in the following year, because we shall have added to the number of development areas.
  I beg the right hon. Gentleman to realise that if we are to have the ongoing liberalisation of trade which all of us will welcome, it must take place at a speed and within international disciplines which do not result in intolerable hardships and intolerable social difficulties in particular countries. Something has to be done about this, and we are only at the beginning.
  I shall not refer to the matter of textiles because I hope that my hon. Friend will catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend will no doubt want to ask in some detail why we are to have tariffs and quotas on the imports from less developed countries. That will probably be explained, and no doubt my hon. Friend will press the matter. No doubt other of my hon. Friends will have other points on this matter. I do not wish to inhibit their discussion. I merely wanted to register these general points. While I welcome the Kennedy Round, the naive liberalism which we have all suffered from earlier on cannot be sustained in future. It will have to be liberalism accompanied by sensible and creative international disciplines, which will allow that liberalism to proceed at the maximum rate possible, given the need in the twentieth century for guarding against unacceptable social and political difficulties arising from it.
  10.26 p.m.
  Mr. David Clark: I am sure that we all share the concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) about the way in which this order has come before us. My right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) had the key of the matter when he spoke about pace and discipline. I was delighted that the Minister should say that, since the Kennedy Round reductions, we have seen an increase in world trade. This is
  1652
  something which we all welcome. But I want to raise a specific point under the heading 8701 and to make certain representations on behalf of several thousand factory workers in my constituency.
  I take the Minister's point that these negotiations were concluded roughly in 1967, and that the House then welcomed them. But, as my right hon. Friend said, it all depends on the pace and the discipline. There have been great changes in international trade. Perhaps the greatest obvious effect is the decision for this country to enter the Common Market.
  This raises a difficulty. The tariff for the import duty for agricultural tractors on 1st January, 1972, will be reduced from 9 per cent. to 7 per cent. This will be effective once and for all, or it should be. But the situation is more complicated because, after 1973, due to our commitments with the E.E.C., we have to alter the rate once again and have a differential system, whereupon for third countries, those outside the E.E.C., the 7·5 per cent. duty referred to in the order will be increased gradually by 1977 to 18 per cent., in spite of our general desire to lower the rate of duty.
  But on the other side of the scale, the tariff barrier, the 7·5 per cent. for Common Market countries will be phased out until 1977, when it becomes zero. This causes difficulties. It means that, because of the change in international agreements negotiated since 1967, the tractor industry in Britain will be placed in a very difficult situation. For example, in 1973, British tractors will face a 14·4 per cent. barrier, on the Continent, whereas continental tractors will have to surmount only a 6 per cent. barrier in Britain. This does not seem to me to be liberalisation of trade on the equal competitive terms which we are all interested in. It is this problem that worries me. I fully understand that the Kennedy Round negotiations followed the G.A.T.T. treaty, which we signed as a nation. But it has meant that concessions on certain goods have had to be waived in preference to other goods. It so happened that the E.E.C. countries demanded that tractors be excepted. We thus have the strange anomaly in the order which will cause severe difficulty to our tractor industry. I shall show that, since these terms were agreed, in 1967, the situation has changed to such an extent that, if

  1653
  the order goes through, it will cause grave difficulty to our tractor industry, which, as the right hon. Gentleman is aware, is already in great difficulty. I may be wrong, but I do not think that a single tractor manufacturing company in the country has been working full out, at least recently.
  The situation has radically changed since the Kennedy Round was signed. We have the rather ridiculous situation now in which we are reducing tariffs this year for third countries from 9 to 7·5 per cent. but are immediately going to start putting them up to 18 per cent. We are to reduce them progressively each year in favour of a trading bloc and we in this country are going to be on the receiving end. This is very worrying and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) pointed out, this order has almost been sprung upon us
  There is widespread under-employment and under-use of resources in the tractor industry. That was not the case when the Kennedy Round was negotiated. The industry throughout the world at that time was working, if not to full capacity, then fairly near it. The international scene has changed. For example, the tax credit system introduced by the United States, which is one of the most important markets for our tractors, is going to be very harmful to our tractor industry.
  Certain countries, the United States and Denmark in particular, with surcharge arrangements are going contrary in one sense to the G.A.T.T. These contraventions were introduced to assist in solving national problems. But this sort of thing creates an extremely difficult and dangerous situation for our tractor industry, where the workers are already on short-time. They are working three days a week in some cases, or one week in four in others. There have been large-scale redundancies-1,000 in my constituency, for example.
  The inconsistent tariff arrangements which we are to have, with two differentiating levels of tax, will make it even more difficult for our tractor industry to plan its production in the way we want it to do if it is to be viable. If we are, on the one hand, telling the industry of the great future in Europe for it, while, on the other hand, introducing tariff reductions in the way contemplated in
  1654
  the order, life will be extremely difficult for the industry for the first five years.
  The tractor industry is being put in an extremely difficult situation. First the Government squeeze it very hard, and then they tell it to expand. I submit that the reduction proposed in the order is not compatable with the need to look after not only the thousands of workers in the tractor industry itself, but those who work in the supply and allied industries. This is an unwise move.
  10.35 p.m.
  Mr. Harold Walker: I rise to reinforce what has been said so lucidly and forcefully by my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. David Clark). This afternoon during Question Time I sat on the Opposition Front Bench listening to the Secretary of State and junior Ministers at the Department of Employment answering Questions from both sides of the House which reflected the concern of hon. Members about the present high levels of unemployment. I heard Ministers regretting the unemployment figures and telling the House what the Government were doing and what their hopes were. I had not the slightest doubt that those Ministers were sincere in their hopes and in their concern about the unemployment situation. Imagine my surprise, therefore, when, on studying this enormous order, I realised the consequences of it for my constituency where, according to the most recent issue of the Department of Employment's Gazette, the current unemployment rate is 7·6 per cent., and the male unemployment rate is in excess of 10 per cent.
  One of the largest employers in my constituency is the International Harvester Company which manufactures tractors and earth-moving machinery. I see from the order that the Government are contemplating reducing the rate of import duty on goods from the E.E.C. countries, without any corresponding reduction by them. The rate of import duty on tractors from the E.E.C. is 9 per cent., but our exports to the E.E.C. carry a tariff of 18 per cent., which is double the figure we impose.
  We are solemnly contemplating reducing our rate to 7 per cent., without any reduction by the E.E.C., and this at a time when the International Harvester Company has declared 750 people redundant, and thousands of workers are on

  1655
  short time. I understand that, as a consequence of this order, not only will the present rate of 9 per cent. be reduced to 7 per cent., but that tariff changes will follow our entry into the E.E.C. By 1973 we shall reduce our tariff against the E.E.C. to 6 per cent., while the E.E.C. will reduce its rate to 14·4 per cent. At present the E.E.C.'s tariff rate is double ours. In 1973 it will be more than double. In 1974, we shall impose an external duty of 4·5 per cent. That of the E.E.C. against us will be 10·8 per cent.
  It makes the Government's statement this afternoon about their desire to reduce unemployment sound hollow. At 2.30 they say that they are concerned to reduce unemployment and that they will do what they can to that end and have already taken certain measures. At 10.30 they move this order, which will achieve the reverse. This is hypocrisy. Thousands of my constituents face a very bleak Christmas. I shall make it my business to tell them of the consequences of the order.
  The Minister rightly said that the order flowed naturally from the decision of the Labour Government in 1967. It seemed then to be a wise decision, but that decision was taken in the light of circumstances as they then were and irrespective of the consequences of entry into the Community. We are now faced with the dire consequences of the decision of the House that Britain should join the Community.
  I understand that the House must endorse the order tonight. In view of the poor attendance in the House, it is unlikely that the House would do otherwise. I cannot appeal to the House to reject the document.
  Mr. John Biffen: The hon. Gentleman can try.
  Mr. Walker: I must therefore seek some other help for my constituents. I am surprised that the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) should regard this as a matter for mirth. I challenge him to come and explain his Government's policy to my constituents. If he had experienced the hardship and misery of unemployment as I have, he would not smile at it.
  1656
  I appeal to the Government carefully to consider the terms on which we enter the Community, a least in relation to their impact on these distressed people in my constituency. I appeal to the Minister to draw the circumstances that I have described to the attention of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, in the hope that he will seek in his negotiations with the Common Market countries to accelerate the rate of the Community's tariff reductions on our exports to the Community so that parity will be achieved earlier on tariff rates, in the hope that our industrial products, in particular our tractors, can compete on fair terms. We ask for no more than the opportunity to compete on fair terms with our European competitors rather than to have built into the order alongside the Government's policy continuing discrimination against the productivity and efforts of my constituents working in this industry.
  10.43 p.m.
  Mr. John Biffen: It might be for the benefit of accuracy on the record if I take the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Harold Walker) back over the sequence of events of a few moments ago. He was asserting—I will not here challenge his analysis—that the order would exacerbate the unemployment situation in Doncaster. He was indicating his extreme displeasure with the order. He concluded that he would not consecrate this by dividing against the order. I said, notwithstanding the hon. Gentleman's comments about the lateness of the hour and the apparent paucity of attendance in the Chamber, that he could try—no more than that. I do not think that that quite constitutes mirth. I know that the hon. Gentleman feels deeply on the question of unemployment, but I hope that in his sense of self-righteousness he will not assume that those who take a different view in politics are any less sensitive about these things.
  I turn to the more important issues. First, there is the question of the validity of the Government's proceeding to implement the major recommendations of the Kennedy Round tariff reductions. Contrary to the views of the hon. Member for Doncaster, I am glad that the order is before the House and that it shows every likelihood of being confirmed

  1657
  without a Division, for the whole direction of British foreign and trade policy must be to persuade the North Americans to desist from following the protective instincts that have become very evident and on which we have become no more painfully aware than in their decision to put on a 10 per cent. surcharge. If we are to argue with any effectiveness, we must proceed on the basis of actions rather than mere words. Therefore, I am delighted that this country will not join in a headlong rush for protectionism in the circumstances in which we find ourselves. Anyone who is concerned about the gap between relative living standards on a global scale, as is the hon. Member for Kensington. North (Mr. Douglas-Mann), must also be pleased that we are not moving headlong into protectionism.
  That brings me to the speech of the right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever), who confessed that in his day he had been afflicted by "naive liberalism". I do not think that those of us who have seen the right hon. Gentleman in operation would ever have thought that naivety was one of his political characteristics. Broadly speaking, I reckon to be fairly liberal in my political instincts, and I hope that they are tolerably sophisticated, sophisticated enough to warn my right hon. Friend the Minister for Trade that he will hear a great deal about the dislocation of British industry that would result from any tariff or quota changes that are ever contemplated. Undoubtedly there would be adverse consequences, and we should be foolish to ourselves and dishonest to our constituents if we assumed that business would go on as before, apparently unaffected by such changes.
  But the greatest impact, even if it derives from technological change, which was mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman, is as likely to be evident among industrial communities as among those to be found in the developing countries. We have only to think of the impact on the paper industry in this country in free trade circumstances at a time when integrated paper making was taking place in Scandinavia on a scale that could not conceivably be matched by the forestry resources of this country. That has had to result in adjustments in paper making
  1658
  in this country, but I wonder who, looking back over the past decade or so, would have wished to half-freeze the patterns of production of this nation in that respect. I do not think that on balance it would have been nationally advantageous.
  To the extent that such changes are moderated so that they proceed more slowly, this is a legitimate matter for political debate, but it is also legitimate to question whether or not it is, in even the medium and short run, more socially well directed to see that those changes are affected quickly rather than to opt for the slow death or slow contraction of an industry.
  I will not go any further into these matters tonight, but they will obviously preoccupy us a great deal as we see foreign trade possibly making greater inroads into our national economy.
  What seems to be a matter of real substance was the point raised by the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) about the actual state of good order of this document we are asked to endorse. I thought he made a powerful case of which I was wholly unaware until I heard him making it, so no one has got at me and put the other side. Maybe there is a very good "other side and I am being immensely circumspect in any strictures I might seem to direct to my right hon. Friend because there could be an explanation which will send us all home happily.
  The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to underline the significance of the Select Committee which he chairs with such distinction. If this country becomes a member of the E.E.C. then some arrangements will have to be found to the satisfaction of this House for dealing with all those regulations which are presumed in the words of the Treaty of Rome to be "binding in every respect", because I do not believe that this House and this Parliament is in any mood to abdicate its ultimate and final responsibilities for what law is to be authorised in this country. That being so, it lends point to the arguments made by the hon. Gentleman about the desirability of Statutory Instruments being in first-class order and nothing being done which would seem to take this House for

  1659
  granted. As the debates on the relationships between this House and other law-making bodies within the Community proceed, this House will not be in a mood to be taken for granted. In that spirit I think the hon. Gentleman has done us a signal service and I congratulate him.
  10.53 p.m.
  Mr. Nigel Spearing: I rise to support the point already made by my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) and which has been accorded further significance by the comments of the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen). Neither hon. Member pointed out that Motion No. 4 on the Order Paper is concerned with this subject too. We are being asked later to approve the Lords Resolution:
  "That it is desirable that a Joint Committee of both Houses be appointed to enquire into the procedures and practice by which the control of each House over delegated legislation is exercised and to report how they might be improved, be now considered."
  That would imply that we are not satisfied with what happens at the moment.
  This point, raised several times, highlights the power this House has de jure but which the Government are sliding round de facto. I have been in this House for only just over a year, but I have to tell those who have been here longer that the public is getting fed up with bureaucracy of all sorts. It is a growing problem in the country at almost every level. Delegated legislation is one of the greatest growth industries of the lot. It is not new and it behoves any Government to treat such legislation with the utmost care if the power of Parliament is to remain as strong—and it needs to be just as strong if not stronger in future in the conditions we face, industrially, economically and socially—as it has been in the past. We have to be ultra-careful about these matters. I understand that this order is technically in order despite the note which tells us that the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments has not yet completed its consideration of the Instrument. This is a distinct loophole in the Standing Orders of the House. I hope that when the Select Committee on Procedure looks at this, it will take note of the loophole that has apparently appeared as a result of this order.
  Since coming to the House, I have been impressed by the extent to which democracy
  1660
  is protected by a procedure which I can only call delegated scrutiny. A great deal of scrutiny is done in many places. If an hon. Member wishes to stop an order, or legislation, or to question a Minister, there are many ways of doing it. This is not generally realised by the general public.
  This delegated scrutiny is in the hands of the Statutory Instruments Committee and here that Committee has been deliberately bypassed. Although the matter on which it has been bypassed may not be very great, surely that is the whole basis of our parliamentary democracy. We are not concerned whether a change we are asked to approve is small or great, we are concerned with the principle of procedure, because that is the way in which our freedoms are not only given but protected. I am sorry that the Government have bypassed the Committee, even over a technicality, particularly in view of the legislation which may be presented to us after the recess.
  Why is it necessary for us to look at this order? If there has been a technical hitch, is it not possible for the order to be brought back before the recess? This is not a matter on which many hon. Members would wish to speak and there is unlikely to be a vote. The Leader of the House made no announcement about the order, which affects the constituencies of two of my hon. Friends. This again is a convention of value which has been apparently neglected by the Government.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness says that one figure in the order is wrong, but the Minister did not say which figure it was. Nor did he say whether, before the recess, an amendment order would be laid before the House to correct it.
  Mr. Noble: It will be.
  Mr. Spearing: I am grateful, but it is in the traditions of the House that the right hon. Gentleman should have said so in his opening statement, so that the actual figure might appear in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  I underline what was said by the hon. Member for Oswestry. If this is the way in which the Government are going about delegated legislation on a matter of domestic policy over which we have full and final control, what will happen if

  1661
  and when we go into the Common Market?
  Cannot the Minister withdraw the order? If it were to be laid again later, there might be no discussion and it might be taken "on the nod" Perhaps this might be the best way of dealing with this matter in view of the apparent irregularity to which my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness has drawn attention. This would be within the spirit of the House and might retrieve the unfortunate lapse of the Government.
  11.0 p.m.
  Mr. Bruce Douglas-Mann: I wish to endorse the request made by my hon. Friend the Member for Acton (Mr. Spearing) that the Minister should withdraw this order. The circumstances in which the order was presented are not clear. The order has appeared on the Order Paper on a number of days and has not been debated, and many of us were taken by surprise that it was decided to debate it this evening.
  The order is being debated the day after the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry presented to the House proposals for the perpetuation of the quota system for cotton textiles. We had understood that the intention of the Labour Government on cotton textiles was to substitute a tariff system for the quota system. Yesterday, however, the Secretary of State said the quota system was to be retained. Now we are to have tariffs and quotas both perpetuated at the same time.
  Nobody can speak in this House, least of all hon. Members on this side, without feeling immense concern about the present level of unemployment. But it is certainly totally unjustified to export unemployment—which is what this measure will do in relation to cotton textiles—to those countries which can bear it least of all. I share with everybody else concern for the hardship in the Lancashire cotton industry; but to compare hardship involved in Lancashire with the hardship involved in India, to which unemployment will be exported, is totally to expose the Government's proposals for the cynical measures they are.
  Mr. Michael McGuire: My hon. Friend should bear in mind that Lancashire
  1662
  has suffered tremendously. This country, which has generously accepted imports from the under-developed countries, has set a magnificent example, but it has been at the expense of Lancashire textile workers. And if other countries had concentrated their minds in this respect with the same generosity as has been displayed by this country, this problem would not have arisen. Lancashire has set a great example, and we cannot make a desert out of our Lancashire interests simply to show that we have got to take in more imports. We have to put a stop to it, and we have done, and I make no apology for it. Most Lancashire hon. Members are as concerned as my hon. Friend for the underdeveloped countries—or the developing countries as they are coming to be called—but Lancashire has borne its burden grievously and something has to be done. If other countries would respond half as well as has Lancashire, then I am sure my hon. Friend would be in a happier state of mind about the state of the developing countries.
  Mr. Douglas-Mann: I fully understand my hon. Friend's feelings, but with a declining industry I do not believe the solution to the problem is to prop it up in this way by controls of imports. I know my hon. Friend will accept that one of the problems of the Lancashire textile industry has demonstrated itself in the fact that a substantial part of the labour force in that industry is now having to be recruited—and has been recruited for some time—from immigrants from the very parts of the world which will be suffering the consequences of the order.
  This is an industry which no longer adequately meets the employment needs or production needs of Lancashire. It is an industry that is probably not the kind of industry in which we, as an advanced industrial country, can most usefully and advantageously be engaged. I am conscious that I am advancing an argument which inevitably will be unpopular in many parts of the country, and most of the Lancashire constituencies represented by many of my hon. Friends. But the hardship in the constituencies of my hon. Friends cannot be compared with that in those countries which will bear the brunt of the effects of this order, coupled with a quota system.

  1663
  My party's Government proposed an import duty system as an alternative to a quota system. Now we are to have both tariffs and quotas. How does this arrangement accord with the negotiations for Britain's entry into Europe? How does the Minister justify the consequences that it must have on these countries whose cotton textiles will be affected by it?
  It is probable that India has a bigger economic burden to bear than any underdeveloped country has had at any time in history. Yet this additional burden is to be placed on countries like India. It is totally unjustified, notwithstanding the fact that it could be said to remedy the unemployment position in Lancashire. However, this is not the right way to do it.
  11.5 p.m.
  Mr. Joel Barnett: This has been a very interesting debate, more so, probably, than the one which has been going on during the past two days. I did not dream that so much of it would be taken up by points about the Common Market. While the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) will know that I do not agree with his Common Market views, nor with those of some of my hon. Friends, nevertheless I accept what he and my hon. Friends the Members for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) and Acton (Mr. Spearing) said about Statutory Instruments. Quite apart from the Common Market issue, the growth in the number of Statutory Instruments has been enormous. Obviously hon. Members must be concerned with the way in which they are discussed.
  The hon. Member for Oswestry said that my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness had done the House a great service in putting this matter before us tonight. I shall be interested to hear the Minister's reply.
  I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was being mischievous in taking to task my hon. Friends the Members for Colne Valley (Mr. David Clark) and Doncaster (Mr. Harold Walker), who both made valid constituency cases in respect of the tractor industry. We are all theoretical liberalisers of trade, but, in practice, unilateral liberalisation will not help a country. That is why we have
  1664
  Kennedy Round negotiations, and it is why we are a member of the G.A.T.T.
  I feel that my hon. Friends are mistaken. My understanding of what will happen after 1973, if and when we are members of the Community, is that the gaps in the levels of duty on products as between us will narrow until they cease to exist. Obviously the Minister will be able to deal more adequately with that.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley seemed to be on a good point when he said that we appear to be moving in the initial years to a situation where we shall have a very much lower tariff than that which applies in the Community.
  I want to deal briefly with the textile industry. I must tell my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington, North (Mr. Douglas-Mann) that, while I speak from the Front Bench, I am also very proud to represent a Lancashire constituency. My hon. Friend is right to say that we cannot compare the levels of unemployment in Lancashire and India, but it is wrong to suggest that Lancashire and its textile industry should bear a burden that it has borne for so many years. Both the employers and workers in the Lancashire textile industry have for far too long allowed themselves to be treated in a way that has led to the present situation.
  That does not mean to say that there was not bound to be a decline in the cotton textile industry. It was inevitable because the developing countries were bound to come into this industry. All that we in Lancashire say is that it did not have to happen as fast as it has been happening.
  Perhaps my hon. Friend is not aware that if the quotas had been removed, the one developing country that would have been particularly concerned would have been India. It is the people of Hong Kong who are vitally concerned about the quotas being put back. The Indian textile industry views this very differently indeed. I should be surprised if the Indian textile industry is not delighted that the quota system is being retained, and if my hon. Friend cares to make inquiries I think he will find that this is the situation.
  When my hon. Friend speaks about the unemployment levels in Lancashire not

  1665
  being that bad and about the industry declining anyway, I remind him that 30 per cent. of the labour force in one part of my constituency is engaged in this industry, while in another part the figure is 15 per cent., and my constituency is not unique in Lancashire in this respect. I admit that to a large extent this is female labour, but this is vital in view of the lower wage levels for men and the important part the women's wage plays in the livelihood of the family.
  Mr. Douglas-Mann: Would not my hon. Friend agree that the wages reflect the fact that this is a declining industry, is an industry in which Britain is not in a position to compete, and that it would be desirable for alternative sources of employment to be provided, rather than our attempting to maintain the industry at the expense of the rest of the world?
  Mr. Barnett: No, I would not accept that. One reason for the low wage levels in this industry is the large percentage of females in the labour force and the fact that the trade unions have not been as powerful as they should have been. I do not believe there is any need for the industry to decline any faster.
  Even under the existing quota system, we have this year imported about 55 per cent. of home consumption, while in Europe and the United States they import between 15 per cent. and 20 per cent. My hon. Friend should be arguing his case in Europe and America. We in Britain, and especially the people of Lancashire, have done more than our share; and, as much as I sympathise with the position of the developing countries, I do not accept that Lancashire needs to bear any more of the burden.
  I have a fear, despite the fact that the Government have conceded the case which the Textile Council recommended. I remind hon. Members that the Council did not recommend that right away quotas should be removed and tariffs put in their place. It recommended a transitional period during which there should be tariffs and quotas. Tariffs were wanted because of the disruptive effects of cheap textiles exported from the developing countries. It had, and is having, a terrible disruptive effect, particularly on certain types of textile. I have not time to develop the argument, but anyone in the industry knows that
  1666
  the prices of goods coming in were such as to make it almost impossible to produce a similar product in this country, regardless of the quotas. The price was the disruptive effect, and this is why the Textile Council wanted tariffs as well.
  What worries me is that even given both tariffs and quotas, next year we shall still be importing 55 per cent. of home consumption, and we shall still see mills closing at a rate of one a week or more. That is why I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry to reduce the quotas.
  Mr. Harold Walker: I speak as a native Lancastrian who was a resident in the area to which my hon. Friend now has the honour to represent. He will recollect that it is less than 20 years since the hoardings in Lancashire were plastered with inducements for the people of Lancashire not to leave the textile industry and with the slogan, "Britain's bread hangs by Lancashire's thread".
  Mr. Barnett: I am obliged to my hon. Friend. He comes from the area I have the honour to represent. He is right. No one who knows that area will be unaware of what the people of Lancashire have done for the textile industry.
  I ask the Minister two questions. First, as I have said, 55 per cent. of our home consumption has been taken up by imports. But have the voluntary quota arrangements been wholly taken up in 1971? I am delighted that the Government accepted the point about quotas. I understand the anger in some of the developing countries that they were imposed at such short notice before they expected them. I am interested to know what the position will be now. As I understand it, these are voluntary arrangements and quotas. So what is happening is that we had the voluntary quotas ending on 31st December, 1971, and now we are told that the new quota system is to stay in force from 1st January, 1972. I can hardly imagine, for example, that in the case of Hong Kong this will be a voluntary system, because it will be the sort of voluntary system that we know of in the House—of the arm-twisting kind, perhaps. Have they accepted it, or have we got or are we negotiating a new quota system? If so, what levels have the Government in mind?

  1667
  I hope that the Government will be able to say that the levels are likely to be kept rather lower so that we shall not be importing as much as 55 per cent. I hope that the Government will have at least some negotiations with our possible prospective partners in the E.E.C. to see if they cannot harmonise with us their levels of imports of textiles, and, indeed, with the United States.
  The Chancellor is attending a new meeting on 17th and 18th December on world monetary problems, which will include some discussions with the United States which we hope will result in the removal of the 10 per cent. surcharge. Is it too much to ask that the Government will also consider putting to the United States that they should increase their level of textile imports if the rest of the world agree to some change of parities along the lines desired by the United States?
  To sum up, I am delighted that the Government have moved some way towards what many on both sides of the House have been pressing upon them. We hope that they will now be able to ensure that we in Lancashire do not carry the sort of burden we have carried for so long, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ince (Mr. McGuire) so rightly said.
  11.14 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Noble: With the permission of the House, I should like to try to answer some of the points raised during the debate.
  First, I did not disagree with a single word of what was said by the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth), as Chairman of the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments, because we all realise the importance of the scrutiny which is exercised by that Committee. I paid particular tribute to it in my opening remarks. I certainly would not wish to treat the Committee in the way he describes. There are, however, two important reasons why the House should pass this order. First, it is necessary to pass it before the end of the year to give effect to Britain's international obligations in the Kennedy Round. These expire on 1st January and it is therefore not possible, as the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Spearing) suggested, to leave it over until after the recess.
  Mr. Spearing: I was suggesting leaving it until a week hence so that the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments could at least have met and, even informally, dealt with the point that has arisen.
  Mr. Noble: I see the point and I will come to that in a moment. The second reason is that it is important if there is to be good administration that traders should know with certainty well before the end of 1971 the rates of duty which will apply in 1972.
  I was asked what the particular worry was. It was a single item and I am not attempting to excuse it. I have seen the House demand that a Bill be withdrawn because an "s" did not have an apostrophe before or after it—I have forgotten which. This may occasionally be very good discipline for Government Departments. In this case the item was a particular order on the duty on drained or glace cherries which came in, unfortunately, between the first and second copies of the order. I am fully aware of the mistake I have made.
  Mr. Booth: If it is the case, which I accept, that it is important that these rates should be known well before the end of the year so that business can be properly carried on, why did not the Government bring the order forward in any one of the 28 days that it laid before the House before last Friday? Surely the same purpose would have been served by moving an affirmative Motion on the previous Import Duties (No. 7) Order.
  Mr. Noble: That may well be so. But the fact that the document was laid before the House for 28 days at least indicates what is intended. This is not an unusual situation because this is, I think, the fourth of these orders that has been laid, one each year, and the trade knows, with the possible exception of some mistake by the Department in the omission of glacé cherries, that the order, as laid, comes into effect. The trade knew what they thought was going to happen. It was only because of a mistake that the duty on glacé cherries will be double what it should be. I know this is a mistake and I am not trying to make light of it, but it is not of earth-shattering importance to the industry or to the House. I make a full apology, but these things happen occasionally.

  1669
  It is inevitable in discussing so large a document as this that the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. David Clark) or perhaps his hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster (Mr. Harold Walker) should raise points of detail and ask for explanations but I am sure they realise that it is difficult for Ministers to be fully briefed on the whole range of problems that may rightly be raised.
  I know, because I am interested in it, that the tractor industry in this country has been looking forward with a good deal of anticipation to Britain entering the Common Market. Over a period of years, they could see the great advantages. Most of their main markets have been into the E.E.C. and into America over considerable tariffs, which are coming down. At the moment, both the Danish and the American surcharges are a serious impediment to trade. My hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) pointed out the great importance in trading circles that these should be brought down. But, if hon. Members will forgive me for not pursuing this point further now, because I do not have the details, I will write to them and try to give them the facts and figures on imports as soon as I can.
  The hon. Member for Kensington, North (Mr. Douglas-Mann) made a serious point, that we might be exporting unemployment. This is certainly a problem if one operates in this field, but his hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) got it exactly right when he explained, as my right hon. Friend did yesterday, that, of the countries likely to be affected by the combination of tariffs and quotas, India is the one which in our view is possibly likely to gain.
  The hon. Gentleman also asked me whether the quotas which had been allocated in the past had been taken up. It is interesting that the one quota which has not been taken up fully in the past is the Indian one. This shows that my right hon. Friend's point yesterday and the point of the right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) today may well be valid, and India is one of the countries which will gain, because she will still have her quota and still be able to use it fully, whereas, under a system in which all the quotas disappeared,
  1670
  the more aggressive Taiwans and Koreans and other countries might well take them up more fully.
  As the right hon. Member for Cheetham—who kindly explained to me why he could not be here for the end of the debate—pointed out, and as I noticed in our debate last night on generalised preferences, we tend to be a little split-minded about many of these trade problems. We want to be liberal, and over the long term it pays Britain enormously so to be, but when we become too liberal there are significant problems in our own constituencies which raise many worries. We must rethink many of our ideas when it affects us. Everyone likes changes so long as it does not affect him.
  The Kennedy Round brought very great benefits in trade for the whole world, and I should be very sorry to see them lost. The hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) asked about arrangements for the voluntary nature of these quotas. We will be opening discussions with these countries in January and we will bear his points in mind.
  With these quick comments on what has been a useful and interesting debate, and with renewed apologies to the Chairman and members of the Statutory Instruments Committee, I hope that the House will pass the order, so that we are not in breach of our international obligations and so that the people who have to base our trade on the known quantities of tariffs can get about their normal business.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Import Duties (General) (No. 7) Order 1971 (S.I., 1971, No. 1971), dated 4th December, 1971, a copy of which was laid before this House on 6th December, be approved.

  NATIONAL INSURANCE REGULATIONS (VALIDATION) BILL
  Ordered,
  That the National Insurance Regulations (Validation) Bill, now standing committed to a Standing Committee, be committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. Fortescue]
  Committee Tomorrow.

  DELEGATED LEGISLATION
  Ordered,
  That the Lords Message of 8th December communicating the Resolution, That it is desirable that a Joint Committee of both Houses be appointed to enquire into the procedures and practice by which the control of each House over delegated legislation is exercised and to report how they might be improved, be now considered.—[Mr. Fortescue.]
  Lords Message considered accordingly.
  Resolved,
  That this House doth concur with the Lords in the said Resolution.—[Mr. Fortescue.]
  Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.

  NORTHERN IRELAND (INTERROGATION PROCEDURES)
  11.30 p.m.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Fortescue.]
  Mr. George Cunningham: The subject I wish to raise on the Adjournment is the responsibility of Ministers for the use of physical and mental interrogation techniques against internees in Northern Ireland.
  It is incumbent on anyone rising to speak on any aspect of Irish affairs to say first that whatever his opinion about interrogation techniques, he has no sympathy, as I have no sympathy, with the barbaric thuggery of gunmen and bombers on the streets of Belfast and Derry; and in no sympathy do I raise these issues tonight. There is no incompatibility between what I have said and what I will say in the rest of my speech.
  It is important that we should recognise that it is when the State is under the greatest provocation from such people that we are the most likely to permit ourselves to slip into some measure of barbarism to counteract it. There is no chance of the judicial habits of this country falling into the marsh in normal times. It will be only in situations like that in Northern Ireland at present when that may happen, and, if the price of freedom is eternal vigilance, vigilance is especially required when things are happening as they are on the streets of Ulster now.
  1672
  It is amazing that so little fuss has been made since the publication of the Compton Report three weeks ago about the implications of what is said in that report. When one considers what people in this country have said in the past about My Lai and Hola Camp, and one looks at the lack of response to the atrocities committed by our forces—under Ministerial authority—against internees, this is surprising. One is entitled to ask, "Why has it happened?"
  One reason is that Press coverage—this was not so much true of the television coverage at the time—stressed that certain allegations had been disproved instead of stressing that certain allegations had been abundantly proved. When I first read the report, I regarded it as a good report. Disturbing facts are there for anyone to read with eyes to see, but the more often I read it, the more I feel it is fundamentally a dishonest report, extremely naive in its terminology.
  Attention has been drawn in past debates to the semantic gymnastics of Sir Edmund Compton in his definitions of cruelty and brutality, but reading again a paragraph in the report, I was more forcibly struck than before by the complete nonsense of his judgment.
  He argues that actions are properly defined as cruel only if they display a disposition to inflict suffering and an indifference or pleasure on the part of the inflicter. So if a guard cuts off a man's hand to induce him to provide information, provided he gets no pleasure out of it or feels something opposite to pleasure in doing it, it is not cruel.
  That is what Sir Edmund Compton says in the report, and anyone who holds that view of the meaning of words is not competent to conduct that sort of inquiry.
  When I mentioned his naivety, I was thinking of the helicopter incident at the end when Sir Edmund Compton refutes the allegation that a man was pushed out of a helicopter six feet from the ground by saying that one reason for disbelieving it is because the rules say that one must not leave a helicopter while it is off the ground. It is as if I complained that someone had pushed me off a bus and it was argued that it was highly unlikely to happen because the rules state that one must not get off

  1673
  a bus when it is moving. Anyone who produces nonsense like that is entitled to have his other judgments in the report severely doubted.
  The acts which Sir Edmund Compton has found proved are, however, in themselves deeply serious and in my view they can legitimately be described as torture, although I do not want to be sucked into the business of defining the meaning of words. I believe, however, that if these things had not been found proved in this case, if we were talking about it in the abstract the word "torture" would be freely used in this House by all sides to describe this sort of thing if somebody else had done it.
  The rules laid down by Ministers in 1965 and 1967 governing interrogation techniques provide that there should be no violence to persons. I suggest to the Minister that it is simply not possible to argue that obliging a man to lean against a wall for an average of, say, 20 hours, with rests in between—for periods of five hours—is not violence to the person. Nobody does that voluntarily. A person must be forced to do it. One cannot simply ask a man to do that and expect him to do it.
  To put a bag round a man's head and tie it is violence to the person. It may legally be arguable that to blast his ears with an electronic noise machine is not violence to the person. The lawyers could have a field day on that, but I would regard it as such. I do not think anyone looking at the actions of others without having a self-interest in the matter could argue that what happened was not violence to the person. The rules also state that behaviour should not be of a humiliating and degrading nature. I suggest, again, that to tie a hood round a man's head for hours on end is decidedly humiliating and degrading.
  I have given the Minister notice of a specific point which I intended to raise. The Bowen Report on the Aden affair some years ago specifically recommended in respect of Aden—I concede that—that the medical attendants during interrogations should be civilian. That was the third recommendation of the Bowen Report. As I understand it, the medical attendants in Ulster were all, or nearly all, military. The Minister has responded
  1674
  to some of my many Questions to him during the last three weeks by saying that the medical advice which has been taken about the techniques is all military advice; no outside professional civilian medical advice has been taken. I should like to know why the Government have departed from that recommendation of the Bowen Report.
  Some people are prepared to argue that what was done to the internees was relatively harmless. I concede at once that there are gradations of torture every degree worse than what was done in Ulster. I do not, however, think that people quite understand that what was done was done with the definite purpose of putting the victim into a state of sensory isolation.
  Many experiments have been done on this kind of thing, both in academic circles and by the military in various countries, particularly in the United States. To those who do not know about it, it is probably surprising in how severe a state a person can be placed if he is deprived of the normal input of his senses.
  That was what they were about in Northern Ireland: hooding a man to shut off vision, blasting him with noise to cut out any pattern of input of sound and keeping him in one rigid position for long periods to keep out the tactile senses. This is the new conventional wisdom of the torturing interrogation methods which are taught in this country.
  It is, in fact, very old hat. It is straight out of Koestler's "Darkness at Noon" and most of the psychiatrists and others who have some claim to be expert in these matters would say that at least a lot of the information one gets that way is likely to be highly unreliable, although I accept that one can get some reliable information that way. Also, it simply is not true that one can do that to a man and not leave scars. So what was done was decidedly serious and many medical men—some who have written to the Press—regard this as a perversion of their profession. I think that the hon. Gentleman and the Parker Committee will hear more from these people over the coming weeks.
  How did the Government respond? First, the Home Secretary made clear that in his opinion what had been done

  1675
  was not contrary to the rule laid down in 1965 and 1967, which I question. Secondly, they set up the Parker Committee. But the Parker Committee, judging by the Home Secretary's statement and other statements, seems to be encouraged to find a line between some form of ill-treatment which would be bearable and other forms which would not be bearable. I ask the Government to make clear to the Committee that the job it is supposed to do is defining rules to stop any ill-treatment of prisoners in British hands.
  Secondly, and more important, apart from the Parker Committee considering the matter of what we do in future, there is the question of what we are going to do about what has happened. People have, I suggest, committed illegalities. They have committed criminal assaults on individuals in their charge. That cannot be swept under the carpet. In the case of Hola Camp years ago, hon. Members with greater experience than I will recall the speech of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell). Investigation then was not just into how we could stop doing these things but into the disciplinary action required against those who had done them.
  It would be wrong for disciplinary action to be taken against troops and police who did things which they were trained to do, which they did with the knowledge of Ministers. Therefore, the action which needs to be taken is against the Ministers under whose authority these things were done.
  Let us be clear about it. The Ministers were responsible. The Minister of State, in reply to a question by me, stated:
  "Ministers were aware of the principles underlying interrogation in depth—"
  that is the curious term by which we refer to torture these days. He went on to say that they were also aware
  "of the safeguards against violent or humiliating treatment. … They were also aware of the importance of obtaining operational intelligence and that to assist this, detainees were liable to be subjected to a measure of fatigue, isolation and noise. They were not acquainted with the detailed methods that were employed."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd December, 1971; Vol. 827, c. 154..]
  If there is one thing worse than a Minister knowing that people under his control
  1676
  are going to commit assaults upon prisoners in charge, it is that he knows they are going to do it but does not know the detailed methods that are implied.
  The hon. Gentleman had not even gone to the trouble at that time to listen to the electronic torture machine, three copies of which are in a secure establishment in this country. But the Minister has now heard the machine. He is the only Minister, he has told me, in the Ministry of Defence who has done so. He heard it on 28th October, just a few days before the Compton Report was formally signed. Why did it take that time for Ministers to work out for themselves what the techniques were that were to be used?
  I have no time to go into the legal aspects. The Minister has said that he does not think that illegalities have been committed, but he is not a legal luminary and he has, to say the least, an interest in the matter. The Attorney-General's remarks have been decidedly more cautious. The Times is clear on the point and has argued it carefully. Whether it is right or wrong, it argued the case with many facts quoted.
  That is something which the Government have not done, and many balanced, unpolitical lawyers in this country have made it clear to me that they see no way in which this cannot be illegal. If it is not illegal in Northern Ireland, then I want to know whether it is legal in this country, because although Northern Ireland has different laws from us, and the Special Powers Act does not apply here, there is nothing in that Act which constitutes a difference in that respect, and I want to know whether the Minister regards it as legal for these things to be done in this country.
  I spoke on another occasion of the moral aspect of the matter and the difficulties, if someone is going in for torture, of knowing where to draw the line. It goes without saying that what we have here is a major scandal to which people have not wakened up, and which Ministers are busy trying to shove under the carpet. I promise the Minister that if torture is to be admitted to our techniques, I cannot stop the Government from doing that, but by God they will not do it in silence.

  1677
  What is needed is for the Attorney-General to make a reasoned statement of the legal position, similar to the reasoned statement that he made about the Simonstown Agreement. There must also be an investigation, the necessary proceedings must be taken against individuals, and Ministers must take the necessary action. One thing which should have happened—and which ought to happen now—is that the Secretary of State for Defence, who held ministerial responsibility for what was done by the troops under his control, ought to have resigned.
  During the next few weeks we shall see opinion in this country waking up to what was happening and giving the Government a had time. A committee has been formed, under Professor Wall of University College, which will awaken universities to what they have not realised until now and I hope, because not a little publicity has been given to the committee's appeal for evidence, that people all over the country, with something balanced and professional to contribute, will put their written evidence to the Parker Committee by the deadline of 17th December. I think that the committee, composed of three lawyers, will have good medical opinion put to it and will be given the benefit of the common sense of people in the country.
  11.48 p.m.
  The Minister of State for Defence (Lord Balniel): The use of interrogation gives rise to complex and very difficult problems, and it is important that they should be given the most careful thought. I am therefore glad that the hon. Member for Islington, South-West (Mr. George Cunningham) has been able to raise this matter on his Motion for the Adjournment so that we may have another opportunity of examining the many, and sometimes conflicting, considerations which are involved.
  In combating terrorism the forces of law and order have a quite exceptionally difficult job. Their opponents are often anonymous; their identities are unknown; they wear no uniforms, and they cannot easily be distinguished from the ordinary mass of the population amongst whom they mingle. There are no battle lines: a terrorist may be almost anywhere.
  1678
  The difficulties which I have described are greatest in an urban situation, because the sheer numbers of people and buildings make it easy for the terrorist to hide. It makes it easy for him to emerge and shoot, or to bomb or to assassinate, and then to fade back into the surroundings amongst which he cannot be found.
  The security forces will never find more than a handful of terrorists when relying on random searches or routine patrols or road blocks. Most of the time the terrorist does not carry anything with him which can incriminate him, and there is nothing which marks him out from being an ordinary member of the population.
  In that situation the security forces can begin to combat terrorism successfully, only if they have information about the terrorists, if they know who the terrorists are, who their contacts are, where they hide, what their plans are for attack, assassination and bombing, and where their weapons are hidden. The key to all that is, of course, intelligence. All that is easily stated. What is much more difficult to decide is how the intelligence is to be obtained.
  It is not an easy matter. The information will not normally be given freely, because terrorists intimidate the population. They are quick to turn their murderous methods on those they think are giving information about them. For example, two days ago a man was found shot dead. The Provisional I.R.A. said that the man had killed himself accidentally whilst preparing to go out on active service. However, the case is being treated as one of murder. The man had bitten through his tongue before he died. The House can draw its own conclusions as to the circumstances in which the man died.
  Experience has shown that the most effective—indeed, the only—way of getting intelligence is by questioning and interrogating suspected terrorists and those associated with them. It is only by these means that the security forces will get information which is accurate and up to date.
  The need, though, is to have the information quickly; otherwise, when a terrorist is captured his colleagues still at liberty will change their hide-out: they will change the places where they hide

  1679
  their arms and ammunition before the security forces have caught up with them.
  Many suspects reveal what they know during preliminary questioning immediately after arrest. A great deal of information is obtained in this way which can be acted on at once.
  There are often a small number of people who are suspected of the deepest complicity in the terrorist campaign and who are thought to be able to give the most vital information but who do not answer in the preliminary questioning. Information cannot be obtained from them quickly except by some form of interrogation in depth, as it has come to be called.
  This has been the general experience of the British Forces in many internal security situations in which they have been involved since the end of the war. Interrogation had to be used in the 1950s in Malaya, Kenya and Cyprus; and in the 1960s in Brunei, in Malaysia during confrontation, and in Aden; and most recently in Northern Ireland.
  The same form of interrogation had to be used during confrontation in Malaysia and in Aden—when the right hon. Gentlemen opposite were in power—for precisely the same reasons—to get quick, reliable information about terrorists who were attempting by means of murder and other acts of violence to overthrow the legal and established government of the day.
  But it has always been recognised that, no matter how urgent the need to obtain information quickly in order to save lives, it would be morally unacceptable, and indeed self-defeating, to depart from certain basic standards of behaviour.
  The general rules which at present govern the conduct of interrogation were codified in 1965. These rules are set out in general terms in the Compton Report.
  Although these rules have always been observed whenever interrogation, and particularly interrogation in depth, has been used, allegations of torture have inevitably followed.
  This happened for instance in Aden in 1966 when a number of allegations were made about the treatment of detainees by British Army interrogators. The
  1680
  previous Administration asked Mr. Bowen, Q.C., to enquire into the procedures then governing interrogation, and his report was published with an introduction by the then Foreign Secretary, the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown. One of Mr. Bowen's main recommendations was sthat there should be a daily examination by a medical officer and medical examinations on arrival and at departure from the interrogation centre. This is now standard practice.
  I turn now to the recent use of interrogation in Northern Ireland. All of those brought in after arrest were subjected to preliminary questioning. In addition, it was decided to interrogate in depth a small number of them who were known to be likely to have a large amount of very valuable information about the I.R.A.
  Mr. George Cunningham: We have read the report.
  Lord Balniel: This interrogation was authorised by the Northern Ireland Government with the knowledge and concurrence of Her Majesty's Government. Inevitably the same pattern as before emerged, and allegations of brutality and torture by the security forces carrying out the interrogations began to appear, and the Government rightly asked the Compton Committee to investigate them. I regard the Compton Committee as completely impartial and in no sense as the hon. Gentleman described it as dishonest and producing nonsense.
  The House will be interested to know that the Government have decided that it would be right to set up a standing machinery to deal with complaints, subsequent to those considered in the Compton Report, about the treatment of individuals at the hands of the Army or police from the moment of their arrest until they are handed over to the prison authorities.
  The Compton Report confirmed that the methods currently authorised for interrogation contain no element of cruelty or brutality, but more generally it drew attention to the problem of implementing the rules in detail in circumstances in which it is vital to carry out intensive and urgent interrogation.
  We face the same difficult issue of what methods of interrogation are acceptable

  1681
  in our society for the purpose of defeating a ruthless campaign of terror and violence and so saving the lives of innocent people. No doubt right hon. Gentlemen opposite when they had the same responsibility had to ask the same questions.
  The job of Sir Edmund Compton's inquiry was to establish the facts. It did not have the incredibly difficult task of weighing up the methods and the intensity of interrogation against the desperate need to save lives. The Government have decided that the procedures at present authorised for interrogation should be reviewed, and we are very grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Parker and Lord Gardiner, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) for their willingness to undertake what I think all would regard as an incredibly difficult task.
  Fourteen men out of 1,500 arrested have been interrogated in depth, and the information which was obtained was of great value and has enabled the security forces to make significant progress in campaigning against the I.R.A. organisation. It is important to understand that the benefit does not end with the immediate and direct results leading to arrests and arms finds. More information is obtained from those who are arrested. This leads to further arrests, leading in turn to further successes for the security forces. This snowball effect has brought a continuous flow of fresh, accurate information about the terrorists, and the process is still going on, because information generates information.
  1682
  I have given the House before a considerable number of statistics about the arms, ammunition and plans found and the people arrested as a result of the information. A great proportion of the arrests and the finds of ammunition and arms since 9th August has flowed directly or indirectly from this interrogation, which was regarded by the Government as being very necessary. I cannot be more specific, because the danger of I.R.A. retribution in Northern Ireland is very real and very grim. I am sure, though, that the arrests and arms seizures made on the basis of the operational intelligence obtained from interrogation has saved many lives and without any question has saved many people from suffering fearful injuries. The questioning of detainees has played a major part in achieving the increased effectiveness in recent months of the security forces.
  It is unfortunately true that a handful of terrorists can carry out major shootings and bomb attacks and that outrages will continue, as we have seen from the horrific examples of the past week.
  Mr. George Cunningham: What about the civilian medical officers?
  Lord Balniel: But as we know more and more about the gunmen, based upon the information we are obtaining, so the security forces will gradually tighten their grip on the I.R.A. gunmen and gradually restore law and order in that most unhappy Province of Northern Ireland.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at Twelve midnight.

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  SWEDEN
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  SCOTLAND
  SCOTLAND
  ALIMONY
  ALIMONY
  BRITISH EMBASSY, WASHINGTON
  BRITISH EMBASSY, WASHINGTON
  GAZUMPING
  GAZUMPING
  LEGAL ADVICE
  LEGAL ADVICE
  EX-SERGEANT CHALLONER
  EX-SERGEANT CHALLONER
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Government Departments (Dispersal)
  Government Departments (Dispersal)
  Expenditure
  Expenditure
  Advisory Bodies
  Advisory Bodies
  James Committee (Report)
  James Committee (Report)
  Paintings (Purchase)
  Paintings (Purchase)
  Student Grants
  Student Grants
ENVIRONMENT
  Rivers (Pollution)
  Rivers (Pollution)
  Water Supplies
  Water Supplies
  Motor Vehicles (Disposal)
  Motor Vehicles (Disposal)
  Land Reclamation
  Land Reclamation
  Vehicle Testing
  Vehicle Testing
  Accidents (Upton Lane, London)
  Accidents (Upton Lane, London)
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Passports
  Passports
  European Economic Community
  European Economic Community
  Foreign Compensation Commission
  Foreign Compensation Commission
POSTS AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS
  Telephone Kiosks (Vandalism)
  Telephone Kiosks (Vandalism)
TRADE AND INDUSTRY
  European Patent Convention
  European Patent Convention
  National Research and Development Corporation (Projects)
  National Research and Development Corporation (Projects)
  Concorde
  Concorde
  Chamber of Shipping (Code of Conference Practice)
  Chamber of Shipping (Code of Conference Practice)
WALES
  Slum Clearance
  Slum Clearance

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES On the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Leicester.

AIR FARES ON NORTH ATLANTIC ROUTES
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a Statement concerning the fares package for the North Atlantic route agreed at the IATA meeting in Geneva on December 2, 1971.]
TIIE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN): My Lords, the IATA Conference on North Atlantic fares began on December 2 and is still in progress. It is to be hoped that agreement will be reached on the broad lines laid down by airline chairmen and presidents in Honolulu on November 18, and that the new fares will take effect from April 1, 1972, except for the new winter group inclusive tour fares which might be brought in sooner.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, before asking a supplementary question, may I ask, for clarification, whether the noble Lord is giving me an Answer or is telling me that he cannot give me an Answer to the Question on the Order Paper?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am asked to make a Statement. I have made a Statement.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I am sorry, but I am still not clear. May I ask the noble Lord whether —as all these conferences are going on together—he might be able to amplify that statement if I amplify my Question which is put down for Answer next-
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week? Apart from that, could the noble Lord, either to-day or next week, answer two specific points in connection with North Atlantic fares? Will a person applying for a cheap fare to fly across the Atlantic be able to apply for a certain date and a certain flight and be able to pay beforehand? The second question is this. May I ask what advantage a person buying an economy fare across the Atlantic (at an estimated present cost of £165) will have over the person getting this cheap ticket at £83 apart from the fact that he will not have to remain for a stated period at his destination?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, if I may say so, I think the noble Baroness is asking questions which are really outside the original Question that she put to me. The point is really quite simple. Agreement has not yet been reached on fares and therefore I cannot answer her questions. They are at the moment utterly hypothetical.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, that is what I thought. I thought that the noble Lord's reply was hypothetical. May I ask, finally, whether perhaps we can have an Answer next week which can be "unhypothetical".
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, that will depend upon the nature of the Question that the noble Baroness puts.

RHODESIA: TEST OF ACCEPTABILITY AND PRESS REPRESENTATION
3.8 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so may I correct the phrase "Commission of Accessibility" which is printed on the Order Paper to "Commission of Acceptability"—no doubt a Freudian error on my behalf.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether representatives of the Press will be permitted to accompany the Commission of Accessibility in their investigation in Southern Rhodesia.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN): My Lords, I

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accept the noble Lord's correction, one which I had already made in my own mind.
The Government attach great importance to the Test of Acceptability being completely objective and thorough and being seen to be so. The Government naturally hope that wide access can be given to the Press during the Test of Acceptability. The question of how this can best be arranged is one which Lord Pearce and his colleagues have under consideration at the moment.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that Answer and for his assurance, may I ask him whether it is not of great importance to the African people in Southern Rhodesia, as well as to public opinion, that it appears that this Commission is seeking the opinion of all of the people? Furthermore, can Her Majesty's Government suggest to Lord Pearce—who perhaps may read these words—that the utmost efforts should he made to secure full Press co-operation in the efforts that he is making?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I entirely accept what the noble Lord has said. I think it was implicit in my original Answer.
LORD MOLSON: My Lords, will the Government bear in mind the very great importance of ensuring that the evidence given by Africans is confidential and, if necessary, secret? Will they also bear in mind the undesirability of Press reporters' appearing to constitute themselves judges of public opinion in competition with the Commissioners who have been chosen for that purpose?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, my noble friend has touched upon a very important point—one which I am quite certain will not be lost upon the noble and learned Lord, Lord Pearce, and his colleagues when they are considering how best to make arrangements with regard to the Press.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, as an old newspaperman, may I ask, while bearing in mind very much the question which preceded mine, whether the reports which these Pressmen send from that area will be subject to censorship?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I cannot answer that question without notice, but I should hope not.

RHODESIA: THE UNITED NATIONS AND SANCTIONS
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government, in the event of agreement being reached with the Rhodesian régime, what steps will be taken to persuade the United Nations to reverse its mandatory decision on sanctions against Rhodesia: and if the United Nations should be unwilling to do this, whether Her Majesty's Government will accept the United Nations decision.]
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, in regard to sanctions the immediate concern is with what happens in consequence of the recent agreement as described in Proposals for a Settlement. On this our position is clear: sanctions are meantime to continue as they did before. There will be several further steps to be taken, including the completion of the vital Test of Acceptability. before any formal ending of sanctions comes into sight. It is therefore premature to speculate about the circumstances in which sanctions will come to an end. All I can say at this stage on the Question raised by the noble Lord is that in the light of the future developments envisaged, other countries will surely recognise, as we ourselves will, that a restoration of legality in Rhodesia would cause a fundamental alteration in the situation which originally occasioned the imposition of sanctions by the Security Council.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Marquess for that long Answer to my Question, but I am still in a quandary, as I think many other people are, over this. Am I right in assuming that Her Majesty's Government have in fact given a black-and-white undertaking to the Rhodesian Government, or the Rhodesian régime, that sanctions will be removed if satisfactory

889
arrangements can be completed? Am I also right in thinking that under the United Nations procedure we are bound by mandatory sanctions, so that we have in fact given an undertaking which it is not in our power to fulfil unilaterally?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, on the first two points, I think that the noble Lord is perfectly correct. I have tried to answer his Question as fully as I can at this stage. At this moment of time it is very difficult for Her Majesty's Government to envisage what may happen in this matter in the future. So much is in the air at the moment and, if I may suggest it, I think it better that we should leave it for the time being.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, is the noble Marquess aware that, although he may think it is better, the fact is that the House was advised, presumably, when we voted, that the Government had foreseen likely events? Is he really suggesting that the Government are going on without having taken any view as to whether we are going to break a mandatory resolution in this way? We really shall have to press the Government harder on this matter.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: No, my Lords. Obviously Her Majesty's Government are considering various contingencies which may or may not arise in this regard. I am sorry that I cannot go further in this matter to-day. I hope that the noble Lord will accept the assurance that I can give him that we are considering these matters very deeply When I said I did not know what was going to happen, I was, of course, referring to the result of the Test of Acceptability. We do not yet know how this is going to turn out.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, as I raised this question during the debate without getting an answer, may I ask the Government whether when they included in their proposals the statement that sanctions would in a certain event be lifted they did not then apply their minds to how they proposed to overcome any resolution of the Security Council?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I think it is perfectly right for me to say that this is obviously a matter
890
which will be discussed in the United Nations. But I cannot to-day, I am afraid, elaborate any further on it.
LORD FOOT: My Lords, when the noble Lord says that this Question and Answer are premature, does he mean that the Government have not considered what their position will be in the event of the United Nations refusing to remove the mandatory sanctions; or does he mean that it is not convenient to him to tell us?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, what I meant by "premature" was that we did not know how events were going to turn out in Rhodesia concerning the Test of Acceptability.
LORD MILVERTON: My Lords, is it not a fact that the imposition of sanctions by the United Nations upon a country which is not independent is utterly immoral and illegal under the Constitution of the United Nations, and that it must be admitted—which it is not, apparently—that Rhodesia is an independent country, in which case the United Nations can take action? Is is not a fact that everything that we are doing now implies that Rhodesia is not independent; that it is a country which is still in a major way dependent on this country?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, these are all matters which are very much in the mind of the Government at the moment. It is true that at the present time Rhodesia is not an independent country.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, can the noble Marquess answer at least one part of his noble friend's supplementary question, whether putting sanctions on was an immoral act? What is the view of the Government?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, I think that this is getting a little wide of the mark, if I may say so.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, is the noble Marquess fully aware that it is far easier to impose sanctions than to succeed in lifting them.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: Yes, my Lords.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, may I, finally, ask the noble Marquess whether

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I and other noble Lords and people outside this House would be wrong in drawing one of two conclusions from his answer: either that Her Majesty's Government did not give sufficient thought to this matter when they gave the undertaking to Mr. Smith, or that they did give sufficient thought to it and are prepared to proceed regardless of what the United Nations may say?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have given a lot of thought to this matter. What I have been trying to say to the House to-day is that we do not think at this stage, before we know how things are going to turn out in Rhodesia, that it would be proper for me to say any more.

SOUTH AFRICAN INTELLIGENCE ACTIVITIES
3.19 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what knowledge they have of the presence in Britain of an intelligence service operating on behalf of the Government of the Republic of South Africa.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD WINDLESHAM): My Lords, it is accepted practice not to answer Questions about intelligence matters unless illegal activities are being conducted by foreign representatives which make it in the public interest to do so. We have no evidence of any such activities on the part of South African officials.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, may I first ask the Minister whether there is any doubt at all that the South African Bureau of State Security is carrying out intelligence activities in this country? Is there not much evidence from individuals, Liberals from South Africa, and from organisations concerned with apartheid that that surveillance is now being conducted?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, it is very difficult to comment on general allegations. If any evidence is produced, and is made available to my right honourable friend, of illegal activities in the United Kingdom, whether by South African officials or anybody else, we shall certainly follow it up.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, may I proceed to give that evidence? May I ask Her Majesty's Government what they have done about recent occurrences? Is the Minister aware that last week the headquarters of the Society of Friends—the Quakers—in Euston Road was raided; that there was thieved from there all the documents referring to Church-sponsored exchanges between South Africans and Britons, and, further, that the files and card indexes of all subcribers to the Friends' Peace and International Relations Committee were taken? Is the Minister not aware that these were of no value at all except to the intelligence services of South Africa and that these actions have followed similar raids en and thefts from the Anti-Apartheid Movement and the Movement for Colonial Freedom?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, I am aware of the theft of documents from Friends' House. The police are making inquiries, but any action to be taken as a result of this incident will naturally depend on what, if anything, is discovered.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, referred specifically to South African officials: does this apply also to people who might be engaged in collecting intelligence on behalf of the South African Government who may not be South Africans?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, I am sorry not to be more forthcoming on this question but, as the noble Lord knows very well, the convention is that intelligence matters are not discussed in public. It would not be right for me to disclose in your Lordships' House the extent to which the Government have knowledge of the activities of foreign Powers either in this country or elsewhere.
LORI) FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, is there any country in the world which does not obtain intelligence from its Ambassadors, High Commissioners

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and other officials who are properly accredited and authenticated in every country?
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, I do not want to comment any further on this question. I gave a full and considered reply to the original Question on the Order Paper and I do not want to amplify it.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the first Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That, until the House rises for the Christmas Recess, Standing Orders No. 36 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) and 42 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be suspended, and that Government business do have, except with the consent of the Government, precedence over other business during the same period.—(Earl St. Aldwyn.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SPORT AND LEISURE
3.23 p.m.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE) rose to move, That a Committee of eleven Lords be appointed to consider the demand for facilities for participation in sport and in the enjoyment of leisure out-of-doors, and to examine what impediment may exist to the fuller use of existing facilities or the development of new ones, and how they might be removed:
That the Lords following be named of the Committee:

V. Cobham (Chairman),

L. Bp. Chester,

L. Astor of Hever,

L. Byers,

L Donaldson of Kingsbridge,

L. Dulverton,

L. Llewelyn-Davies,

L. Redcliffe-Maud,

B. Serota,

L. Strathcona and Mount Royal,

L. Tweedsmuir:

That the Committee have power to appoint Sub-Committees and to refer to such Sub-committees any of the matters referred to the Committee; and that such Sub-committees have power to appoint their own Chairman:
That the Committee and any such Subcommittee have power (a) to send for persons, papers and records; and (b) to adjourn from place to place; that the Committee have leave to report from time to time; and that any such Sub-committee have leave to report to the Committee from time to time:
That the Committee have power to appoint persons with specialised knowledge for the purposes of particular enquiries, either to supply information which is not readily available, or to elucidate matters of complexity within the Committee's order of reference:
That the evidence taken before the Committee and any such Sub-committee from time to time be printed, but that no copies be delivered out except to members of the Committee and to such other persons as the Committee think fit, until further order:
That the Committee do meet in Committee Room No. 4 on Wednesday next at Four o'clock.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. Those noble Lords who were present in the House on the day of the State Opening of Parliament will have heard me state during the course of my speech congratulating the Mover and Seconder of the humble Address, that in due course I would propose to the House a Select Committee on Sport and Leisure. This I am now doing. I am sure your Lordships will agree with me that it is essential to make a real success of the first of what I hope will be quite a long line of Select Committees of this House on various subjects.
I think that your Lordships will agree with me that the membership of this first Select Committee is strong. I am very grateful indeed to all those who have agreed to serve on it, and especially grateful to my noble friend Lord Cobham for agreeing to be the Chairman of this Committee. He has a formidable team to help him, but he has also a great task ahead of him. The subject matter with which this Committee will be concerned is a very wide one and a very important one.
Your Lordships will also note that the Committee are given power to appoint sub-committees, if they should deem this necessary. It may well be

895
that the Committee will wish to split themselves up into sub-committees to examine different aspects of what is on any count a very wide subject. The Committee have also been given authority to appoint a research assistant to help them to evaluate matters of complexity and to give them specialist advice. I think that it would be wrong for me to try to predict how long it will take the Committee to complete their investigations, but they have been given leave to report to the House from time to time, if and when they reach conclusions which, in their judgment, it is worth while to report. I beg to move.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, before we pass on, may I ask my noble friend whether this Committee—
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I apologise for interrupting my noble friend but I noticed the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition rising and I think it would be in accordance with the normal practice if he were first man in after the opening wicket had fallen.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I hope that my wicket will fall very quickly. The situation is slightly difficult because we are debating a Motion, and instead of noble Lords' making speeches on Questions we now have noble Lords asking questions on a Motion, and speakers have the right to speak only once. But I would congratulate the noble Earl, because this is really a striking breakthrough, or breakback, to the days when Parliament appointed many more Select Committees. This is a formidable subject, and one that is likely to provide matters for consideration not merely through one Session but through many Sessions, because it is very much an area of the future. As I understand it, the decision was taken to set up a broad-based Committee which would not necessarily—indeed, I think it would be impossible—comprehend every single sport or leisure activity out of doors. It will be possible for the main Committee to appoint sub-committees and to invite people to co-operate as assessors —indeed, at a later stage it may be necessary to enlarge the Committee. But I think that the first job of the Committee will be to survey the whole field and decide how they are going to work
896
in what is a very important area of human activity. I certainly support the Motion.
BARONESS BURTON or COVENTRY: My Lords, if I may be the third man in, several noble Lords have spoken to me about this Committee and, while not wishing to appear too self-important, I wonder whether I may say that the noble Earl the Lord Privy Seal was kind enough to raise this matter with me. I should very much have liked to serve on this Committee, if he had subsequently decided to invite me, but I am afraid that pressure of work made it quite impossible for me to accept any additional commitment at the present time. Indeed, this was the main reason for my resignation from the Sports Council in June last: the other one being that I had an excellent exit line provided for me by this Government, as those familiar with the subject will know. As somebody who has worked for 20 years in both Houses on this, may I wish the Committee every success and may I, in all humility, from the Back Benches congratulate the noble Earl on having formed such an excellent Committee.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I should like to echo what the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition has said. This is a vastly important field and I think it will become more important as we move towards the end of the century. I think it is a good thing that a powerful Committee of your Lordships' House should be now looking into this matter. I believe that the Committee as proposed to be constituted will be broadly based. I certainly agree with what the noble Lord has said: that we do not know how long it will take the Committee to conclude their studies. Maybe the Committee's composition will change from time to time, and if there should come a time when the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, whose contribution in this field we all acknowledge (I remember very well her constant questioning on the Sports Council), has time available, then I am sure that the members of the Committee would wish to avail themselves of her very considerable expertise on this subject.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, will the terms of reference of this excellent Committee enable them to consider the

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preservation of the peace of the countryside for the benefit of those who wish to enjoy their leisure without noise?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am certain that that falls within the terms of reference of the Committee.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, may I interrupt on a matter of procedure, with the greatest respect to the noble Earl the Leader of the House? This is a Motion before the House, and I would suggest that he should allow noble Lords to make their remarks rather than, no doubt 'very helpfully, seek to answer each one—for which, incidentally, he requires the leave of the House.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, with the leave of the House, may I say that I was simply interrupting the debate before the noble Lord sat down, but I forgot to mention that or to ask for leave.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, is it not the case that both noble Lords have exhausted their right to speak?
3.31 p.m.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, I confess that when I looked at this Motion on the Order Paper I was somewhat mystified, because it refers to a "demand for facilities" for sport. I was not quite clear—perhaps the noble Earl can clarify the point for me and no doubt for other Members of your Lordships' House—whether the demand is by Members of your Lordships' House for sport in which they can engage. I ask that question advisedly, because I understand that in the other place they are considering the provision of 'additional amenities which are not available to your Lordships' House—and, indeed, some of them are not available to the other place. For example, they are asking for a swimming pool, presumably because now that the salaries are to be increased they can indulge in more leisure and gaze upon the further emoluments available to them. I should like to know whether, as a result of the deliberations and recommendations of this Committee, we are to be provided with amenities of that character. I heard the noble Earl only indistinctly when he spoke, and I was not clear on the point that I have now ventured to address myself to; namely, whether the provision
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of sport is intended for your Lordships' House or for the general public. I should like that point to be cleared up.
I ask that for another reason—and I hope this will not incur a rebuke from the noble Lord, Lord Byers, who acts as a kind of amateur Speaker in this House, as I observed yesterday afternoon in the course of a little altercation for which I was in no way responsible; I was quite an innocent victim. I am intensely interested in the qualifications of my colleagues. I say that quite honestly. I read the Parliamentary Companion frequently; I am a voracious reader of Who's Who, Debret and the rest of the publications which refer to the qualifications of my colleagues. It is difficult to gain the information that one requires.
I would venture to ask, since this proposal is before your Lordships, what are the qualifications of these colleagues of mine. Are there any boxers among them; any milers; any who have played soccer or rugby? I myself, for example, was at one time centre half for our village football club. What is more, I ventured to put on the gloves with no less a person than Frank Cox, who was the lightweight champion of Australia—but, of course, I took them off very soon afterwards. What are the qualifications of these people? What are their services to sport? I listened to my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry, with whose qualifications I have been familiar over a long period of time; I am not sure whether she was in the Olympic Games, but I am certain that she deserved to be. What are the qualifications of the members of the Committee? What do they know about sport? What can they recommend to us? Are they going to ask for the advice of those engaged in sport? Are they even going to ask Members of your Lordships' House who engage in sport of various kinds to come before the Committee as witnesses? I think we are entitled to know. I recognise that I am on very dangerous ground here, because I am speaking at length, but I understand that this is a Motion and not Question Time. I see that I have the assent of the noble Lord, Lord Byers, and now I feel quite happy. But despite my happiness, I have come to my conclusion. Can I get the information for which I ask?
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, I rise only to mention one problem on this Motion and it is this. Apart from the contents of the Motion, in the seven years that I have been a Member of your Lordships' House, whenever I have seen the names of members of Committees I have always wondered how they were picked. As I say, I have been here seven years and I have never been on a Committee on any sort of subject. My only problem is this: have you to be a blue-eyed boy or a blue-eyed girl, or have you to kiss the feet of the Establishment, before you get on a Committee? I should like the Leader of the House to tell me —I am only an innocent abroad here—how it happens that Back Benchers who do service never get a chance to sit on any Select Committee.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, there is one question I should like to ask my noble friend, although I think I know the answer to it. Is it quite clear that this Committee can appoint subcommittees from the rest of the House? It is a most important task that this Committee is undertaking, for I believe that leisure in the future is going to become of much greater importance. When one goes through industrial towns in this country and sees grey-faced men standing about on the street corners with absolutely nothing to do, men who have probably been retired at the age of 60, one's heart goes out to them. Septuagenarians like myself have a golf course and a garden; these people have nothing until the pubs open. I think it is important that this Committee should have a strong golfing element in it, to try to provide miniature golf courses, putting greens and so on for the veterans of industry who are being thrown out at a lower and lower age these days, who have no gardens and who have nothing to do.
THE EARL OF ARRAN: My Lords, I have one question that I should like to ask. Is this a Select Committee of the House? If so, when are Her Majesty's, Government going to appoint a Select Committee to investigate the need for a Bill of Rights, to which Her Majesty's Government are beholden, bespoken and committed?
LORD ROBBINS: My Lords, may I seek an explanation of the thought behind the penultimate paragraph in the
900
Motion? When I first read this Motion I thought that it was a purely formal matter which need raise no anxiety in the breast of any noble Lord. But having listened to the noble Earl on the probable duration of the deliberations of this Committee, it seemed to me that it was possible that evidence which would be of interest to many of your Lordships, besides the members of the Committee, might be unduly withheld.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I should like to welcome this Committee. It is a very important subject and, if I may say so with respect, an extremely well-chosen Committee has been selected to deal with it. There are two points which I should like to make. One is that there is at times, to some extent, a contradiction between sport and leisure. Admittedly, in cricket you can enjoy both, but there are some forms of sport which interfere with the leisure of other people. I think that increasingly people are looking for the leisure and peace and quiet that the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, touched on. In many cases that is, I think, a more important subject than the provision of golf courses, football grounds, tennis courts or anything of that kind. I hope that the Committee will pay a great deal of attention to that aspect of the matter.
Following on from that is the problem of access to the countryside and the manner in which that infringes upon agriculture. There is at least one member of the Committee who is an experienced agriculturist, and I am sure that even if his colleagues wish to ignore some of these matters, he will not allow them to be ignored. I would suggest that the Committee should give a great deal of attention to the manner in which access of the town dweller to the countryside for leisure purposes can be married in so that not only does it not interfere with agriculture but in fact can supplement the normal and proper activities of the town.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, in the context of this rather wide discussion, may I ask whether the noble Earl is able to give some hope that the Committee will give an indication of the difference between sport and recreation? Leisure is certainly a different thing where a great deal of people's time is consumed by recreation that is certainly not sport.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, my words will be very few. I just want to refer to one specific point in which I have some kind of general interest. I do not want to indulge in boxing reminiscences like my noble friend Lord Shinwell, who told us most amusingly about one of his sparring partners, but in 1917, when I was training for one of the boxing championships of the British Army in France, my sparring partner was none other than Bandsman Rice, the light heavyweight champion of the British Empire. My question is this. There are many local authorities in this country who have plans on their books for the building of large-scale swimming baths, those swimming baths to form the central point in a vast leisure complex embodying facilities for all kinds of sports. I merely want to ask whether the Secretary of State for the Environment, who normally has to give his sanction for the commencement of such works, will hold up that sanction until the Committee has considered that particular aspect and made its report.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, may I ask to what the word "they" refers in the terms of reference?
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, I am completely puzzled by this Motion. I cannot understand why sport, of all subjects, should be the special prerogative of your Lordships' House. There is the Sports Council and the Countryside Commission, both of whom I should have thought are very active in this field. Why do we now have to have a new Committee consisting entirely of members of the Peerage and drawn from a body who after all are mostly well on in years?
3.44 p.m.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, if I may with permission rise again—I think I have been up perhaps too often—I will take some of these points in reverse order. The noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, asked why there should be a Select Committee of your Lordships' House because this might be duplicating the work of the Sports Council and the Countryside Commission. I do not think that this Committee will duplicate the work; I think it is a very desirable thing that Parliament—and this
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House is an integral part of Parliament—should have a wide look at the whole field, which is of enormous importance for the future. May I say that both the Sports Council and the Countryside Commission have very much welcomed the proposed establishment of this Committee of your Lordships' House.
Coming back now to chronological order, referring to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, I am quite certain that the matter he raised falls within the terms of reference of this proposed Committee, if your Lordships decide to set it up. The facilities for sport and leisure in your Lordships' House should also be considered by them and doubtless they will pay close attention to what the noble Lord, Lord Shin-well, has said in this respect. So far as the qualifications of the Committee are concerned it would be invidious for me to go into that but I think the noble Lord himself would admit that from his intimate knowledge of his colleagues in your Lordships' House a good many Members of this proposed Committee have very eminent qualifications indeed. It is not only, as I see it, a question of having specialist qualifications, but of trying to look ahead at what the requirements are in sport and leisure for our country for the next decade or half century or so. One needs a wide view as well as a specialist view.
The noble Lord, Lord Blyton, asked how Committees of this sort are chosen. We discussed this question a short time ago when we were discussing procedure in your Lordships' House. All I would say is that the Committees are chosen by consultations between the Parties. The noble Lord suggested that this Committee had a kind of Front Bench element in it, but there is also a considerable Back Bench element in it.
I can assure my noble friend Lord Hawke that golf will certainly fall within the purview of this Committee. I can also assure the noble Lord, Lord Walston —and I am glad that he was inclined to welcome the establishment, if your Lordships so decide, of this Committee—that clearly the question of the right balance here between sport, recreation and also the enjoyment of the countryside is one which the Committee will wish to consider. I see nothing in the proposed

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terms of reference which will rule this out. This seems to me, if I may say so, to be central to our consideration of this matter over the next decade or so. There were some other points put to me, one of which was by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner. I am afraid that, rather feebly, I have written the name "Gardiner" firmly in my notes but have put nothing after his name. I was wondering whether he would remind me—
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, I was merely asking to what the word "they" in the terms of reference referred to.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords. I think that what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, pointed out arises clearly from a misprint. I think that if "impediment" were made "impediments", that would deal with it; but I must say that I completely agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, as always on a matter of grammar my noble friend is absolutely right and "impediment" is to blame. It should be "impediments", and I think "they" then falls into its proper place. It was nothing more nor less than a misprint. The noble Earl, Lord Arran, asked about the Bill of Rights, and I think that is rather a different matter. We have read his remarks on the subject not long ago in the Evening News. He seems to have vanished since he asked the Question, but he has apparently apologised to me without my knowing it. I apologise to him for raising the tone of my voice in that respect. I would say that I personally view this as something of an experiment. It is a long time since we have had a Select Committee of your Lordships' House looking at a particular aspect of our nation's affairs. I personally believe that in your Lordships' House there is a pool of experience and expertise which is not properly used for the nation's benefit. I also believe that the judicious employment of Select Committees is one of the ways by which that
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pool of experience and expertise can be more properly exploited for the benefit of the nation.
I also profoundly believe that if one looks at the trends in our society to-day, the question of how we are going to spend our leisure in our society to-day and of how we are going to provide better facilities for sport—not only for the young, which is very necessary, but also for those who have just retired, for example —are going to be very important questions and ones to which we, as responsible citizens, ought to be addressing ourselves. I also believe—and I say this with all deference to the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton—that it is quite possible for a responsible Select Committee of your Lordships' House to do these things without tripping over other people's toes. I commend this Motion to your Lordships' House, although I take due note of the various incidental criticisms which have been made along the way, as I am sure the Select Committee will do if your Lordships decide, in your wisdom, to appoint such a Committee.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, before the noble Earl sits down, may I apologetically remind him that he did not answer my question about swimming baths with vast sport and recreation complexes built around them? Many local authorities have plans on their books and they are awaiting sanction from the Minister of the Environment. I asked whether the Minister would hold up approval of these schemes until after this Committee had reported.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am sure that if we establish such a Committee we shall have a sensible Committee which would not wish to put any unnecessary impediment in the way; and in my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment we have a sensible Minister who will act accordingly and sensibly. I can straightaway give the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, the assurance for which he asked.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

BANKING AND FINANCIAL DEALINGS BILL
3.52 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. It is remarkably fitting that we are considering to-day the Banking and Financial Dealings Bill which is concerned with, among other matters, bank holidays. For exactly a hundred years ago the then Sir John Lubbock, who was later to become the first Lord Avebury, was responsible in another place for seeing on to the Statute Book the first Bank Holidays Act. As noble Lords may know, this measure laid the basis for our modern bank holiday legislation. Like his successor, whom we have recently welcomed to this House (and I am sorry that he is not in his place at the moment), the first Lord Avebury had a career of great distinction in the other place. He was a man of great achievement. Not only was he a man active in public affairs, but he was also a scientist of note and a banker. Not the least of his achievements was the Act relating to bank holildays to which I referred a moment or so ago. This proved to have consequences not only for bank clerks but also for a great number of other people. Noble Lords may find it helpful to the understanding of the Bill now before the House if I briefly explain how this came about.
Before 1871, there were only two days in the year, apart from Sundays, which were recognised under English Common Law as days on which the banks did not do business. They were Good Friday and Christmas Day. Sir John Lubbock wanted to ensure that bank employees would have more opportunities for relaxation than these two days afforded. He did that by providing in his 1871 bank holidays legislation that certain days should be kept as close holidays in all banks. Although there was nothing in the Bank Holidays Act about this, the days prescribed in that Act gradually came to be fairly generally observed as public holidays in England and Wales, though not in Scotland. And thus there came to be established the institution of bank holidays, which for a great number of people in England and Wales denotes a day off from work. The 1871 Act was slightly amended and extended by subsequent
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legislation; but its main provisions have remained virtually unchanged. And it is, I think, a tribute to Sir John Lubbock that in the Bill now before this House we are proposing no change in the principles of his legislation. In essence all that the Banking and Financial Dealings Bill does is to bring up to date existing law. It does this in three main ways. First, it consolidates and makes some minor amendments to the enactments relating to bank holidays. Secondly, it provides for the closure of banks and other financial institutions in the national interest on days not bank holidays. And, thirdly, it makes certain amendments to the Bills of Exchange Act 1882 to bring that Act into line with present-day conditions.
May I now explain the Bill in a little more detail, as it is a somewhat technical one. Clause 1 and Schedule 1 restate the main essentials of the existing law relating to bank holidays and make just three changes in that law. The first is that the Bill makes permanent provision for the Spring and Summer Bank Holidays in England, Wales and Northern Ireland to be on the last Mondays in May and August. Your Lordships may recall that, following the publication in 1963 of the White Paper on Staggered Holidays, the last Conservative Administration decided, after full consultation with the interests concerned, that the August Bank Holiday in the years 1965 and 1966 should be changed, on an experimental basis, from the first Monday in August to the last. The previous Administration continued the experiment by changing the dates of both the May and the August Bank Holidays in the ensuing years with slight variations. The experiment has now continued for several years, and the change of the Spring and Summer Bank Holidays to the last Mondays in May and August has been found to be generally acceptable in England and Wales. It has already been announced that the holidays will be on those days in 1972, 1973 and 1974, and we consider that the time has come to fix the dates on a permanent basis. The Bill does this and removes uncertainty about the dates of these two holidays in future years.
Your Lordships will note that these changes do not apply to Scotland. I ought to explain that bank holidays are not generally observed as public holidays

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in Scotland, as they are in England and Wales. To meet the wishes of Scottish banking interests, the bank holidays in Scotland have now reverted to the existing statutory dates—the first Mondays in May and August. The second change made by Clause 1 and Schedule 1 of the Bill is the addition to the list of bank holidays in England and Wales of December 27 in years when December 25 is on a Sunday. This merely recognises a long-standing tradition. It has for many years been the practice, when Christmas Day has fallen on a Sunday, to use the powers in the Bank Holidays Act 1871 to proclaim Tuesday, December 27, a bank holiday by Royal Proclamation. The Bill removes the need for a Royal Proclamation by making statutory provision for a bank holiday in these circumstances. Your Lordships will be aware that there is already statutory provision—in the Holidays Extension Act 1875—for a bank holiday on December 27 when December 26 falls on a Sunday. This provision is retained in the present Bill.
The changes which I have so far mentioned relate only to bank holidays in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The third change relates only to Scotland. Your Lordships will see that the bank holidays listed in Schedule 1 of the Bill include an additional bank holiday in Scotland, to be held on January 2, or, when that day or January 1 falls on a Sunday, on January 3. Clause 1 provides that the first of these additional bank holidays in Scotland will be in 1973. This change will bring the number of Scottish bank holidays up to six, the same as the number of bank and Common Law holidays in England and Wales. This additional holiday in the Scottish banks should not affect holidays among the general public in Scotland since public holidays in Scotland are, for the most part, arranged on a local rather than a national basis and do not, on the whole, coincide with bank holidays.
As I have said, these are the only three changes which the Bill makes in the existing bank holiday arrangements. It has been suggested in another place that we should take the opportunity of the Bill to appoint additional bank holidays. Christmas Eve, New Year's Day, May 1, the Queen's Birthday, Europe Day and United Nations Day have all
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been suggested as suitable dates for additional bank holidays. To support the case for additional bank holidays, it has been argued that there are fewer so-called public holidays in this country (and I am glad to see that the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, is in her place) than there are in the member States of the European Community, and that therefore the number of bank holidays should be increased in this country. We have considered these requests for additional bank holidays very carefully but have come to the conclusion that additional public holidays are not a suitable subject for legislation. Additional public holidays are a matter for negotiation between the parties concerned, between employer and employee, as part of the normal bargaining processes. In this way those concerned can take account of the needs of individual undertakings, local custom, the preference of employees, and other local circumstances in a way that would not be possible if additional bank holidays were declared.
I turn now to Clause 2. This clause confers a power on the Treasury to close in the national interest, either wholly or in respect of particular types of transaction, banks and a number of other financial institutions such as authorised dealers in gold and foreign exchange. the commodity futures markets, the National Giro and stock exchanges. Your Lordships will recall that the previous Administration found it necessary to close the banks at the time of devaluation in 1967 and during the gold speculation in 1968 by means of the proclamation of a special bank holiday under the Bank Holidays Act 1871. Noble Lords will probably remember that this procedure had some inconvenient side effects. For example, was the special bank holiday to be kept as a bank holiday for the purposes of wage agreements or for the purposes of parking meter restrictions; or for the purposes of bus and Underground timetables or, for that matter, for the purposes of the collection of mail? These points were all eventually sorted out, but they demonstrated the inconveniences which could arise when there was recourse to the bank holiday legislation in such circumstances. The powers conferred by Clause 2 enable such inconveniences to be avoided and allow the Treasury to close the banks without having recourse

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to the bank holiday legislation. They also provide for the closure, in the national interest, of a number of other financial institutions.
The third main objective of the Bill is contained in Clause 3, which brings up to date certain of the rather technical provisions of the Bills of Exchange Act 1882. First, the clause takes account of the fact that the banks now close on Saturdays by defining Saturday as a "non-business day" for the purpose of Section 92 of the Act. This section provides that where the Act limits the time for doing any act or thing to less than three days, non-business days are to be excluded from the reckoning time. The second change which Clause 3 makes in the 1882 Act is to abolish the three "days of grace" which Section 14(1) of that Act allows in the case of all bills not payable on demand to be added to the time of payment as fixed by the bill. This brings practice in this country into line with general international practice.
The third and final change which Clause 3 makes is to tidy up the provisions about the payment of bills falling due on non-business clays. It does this by providing that all such bills shall be payable on the succeeding business day. Your Lordships may remember (and those who have passed legal or accountancy examinations will certainly do so) that Section 14(1) of the Bills of Exchange Act 1882 differentiates between bills falling due on Common Law holidays, which it makes payable on the preceding business day, and bills falling due on statutory bank holidays, which it makes payable on the succeeding business day. The reason for this distinction is far from clear, and Clause 3 of the Bill puts the law on a more consistent basis. My Lords, I have attempted to outline the main provisions and objectives of the Bill, and, as you will have observed, much of it is pretty technical. But I hope that your Lordships will agree that it is a useful measure and that you will give it your support. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª. —(Lord Drumalbyn.)
4.4 p.m.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, we are obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, for the careful way in which he has explained the purposes of this Bill.
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The changes in procedure for which the Bill provides are sensible, and so far as I am concerned I do not propose to delay unduly the time taken on this Bill, either at this stage or at later stages, for I know that there is some pressure on the legislative timetable. I do not propose, either, to put in a wholesale bid for more holidays. There is something in the case the noble Lord makes about local considerations and discussion between employers and employees, but it does not dispose of the argument for an additional public holiday in parts of the United Kingdom. I refer of course to New Year's Day. I believe there is a case for looking again at the possibility of having New Year's Day as a public holiday. I leave the general case of more holidays, as I say, although we have always maintained that the impact of automation should mean that we have greater leisure and more holidays as one way of spreading available work. I am speaking here about one particular day. In certain parts of the United Kingdom New Year's Day is a public holiday. The noble Lord has already told us of the provision that is being made so far as Scotland is concerned. Some companies already accept the inevitable and do not work on New Year's Day. Some individuals also declare to themselves that the day should be a holiday. I should have thought it would be just as well if we accepted this trend and made a national holiday of that day. After all, it is better, more efficient and more economic if on certain occasions, on certain days, there is a national decision rather than leaving it to local agreement or company agreement.
I understand that one of the arguments against this is the inconvenience that would follow if there were no banking facilities available for possibly two weekends consecutively. I cannot believe that in the modern world, with the facilities that now exist for transacting banking business, we shall find our commercial and industrial life dislocated if banks are closed for just one more day. The situation we shall find, if we are not careful, is that the banks are open and there is no other commercial or industrial work transacted on that day, and there is as a result no call at all for the banking facilities. Therefore, I suggest to the noble Lord that here is a special case, and he would do well to have it re-examined.
4.8 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for the way in which he has received this Bill and also for saying that he does not propose to delay unduly its passage. I would say only this in regard to his special plea for New Year's Day. Obviously, this suggestion was considered, with other proposals; but the main point here is, as I said in my speech, that there is nothing to prevent employers and employees from agreeing to New Year's Day being taken off from work. As the noble Lord says, apart from Scotland, this already happens in parts of the country. I understand that on Tyneside and Tees-side New Year's Day is customarily observed as a holiday. In parts of the country where New Year's Day is customarily recognised as a holiday it is, I am told, not necessarily an additional holiday; it may be substituted for some other more generally recognised holiday. But this simply demonstrates that the present arrangements are flexible, and we do not see any need to alter them.
With regard to the noble Lord's fear that only the banks and nothing else would be open on New Year's Day, I would point out that there is nothing to prevent banks from closing as well without its being a bank holiday—as they did, for example, on Saturday mornings; but in that case they must, of course, give due notice to their customers, because I understand that if they do not do so an element of breach of contract may be involved. But if everybody agreed that New Year's Day should be a holiday, and if this was agreed between employers and employees, I think the question would tend to resolve itself without the necessity for legislation. Our view is that, on the whole, because of the legal implications of bank holidays it is better to keep their number to a minimum.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I accept the nub of the point which the noble Lord has made, but he has not answered the particular case I made. I have myself said that there are company agreements and local practices providing for a holiday on New Year's Day, but it is inefficient for me to go into my office and telephone to factories on Tees-side when they are closed on that day. Would not
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the noble Lord therefore undertake to look again at this point?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I will certainly undertake to look at it again between this stage and the next. It would be extremely churlish of me to say that I would not; but I cannot give any assurances that we shall be able to change our mind. I appreciate the spirit in which the noble Lord has put forward this suggestion, and I hope that the House will now be prepared to give the Bill a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read 2ª, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

SUNDAY CINEMA BILL [H.L.]
4.12 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. Before explaining its provisions I should like to thank the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, for his interest in it, and also to thank his Department. Both the Minister and his Department have given me much valuable help and advice, particularly legal advice over the drafting, while at the same time maintaining their strictly neutral position. I think the fact that the Bill is in a pretty good shape is in part due to them, and I am grateful to them. May I also thank the Parliamentary Clerks of this House for their unfailing help and advice in the drafting and the tabling of the Bill.
The Bill makes two main changes in the law concerning Sunday cinema performances; they are described in Clause 1. First, it seeks to bring to an end the existing system of local option, thereby enabling cinemas to be opened on Sunday throughout England and Wales, subject to conditions being imposed by the cinema licensing authority. Secondly, it brings to an end the compulsory deductions from Sunday profits payable to charity and to the Cinematograph Fund. I shall have a little more to say about these two points later.
As your Lordships are no doubt aware, Sunday cinema opening is at present governed by the Sunday Entertainments Act 1932. In any area to which the Act applies the cinema licensing authority is

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given express power to authorise cinemas to open, subject to any conditions imposed, and provided two compulsory conditions are imposed, one dealing with employment on a Sunday and the other dealing with deductions from profits to be paid to charity and to a Cinematograph Fund administered by the Privy Council for the improvement of the film. The Act of 1932 enables the local authorities of county boroughs, non-county boroughs and urban and rural districts to submit draft Orders. Provision is made for local objections to be entered and for a poll or local inquiry to be held in certain circumstances. Once an Order has been submitted it must be laid before both Houses of Parliament and requires the operation of the Affirmative Resolution procedure of both Houses before it can come into operation. Sunday Cinematograph Orders have now been made for all but one of the county boroughs in England and Wales, and for probably the greater number of other districts having cinemas.
The Crathorne Committee, set up by the Home Secretary in 1961 to review the law relating to Sunday entertainments, sports, pastimes and trading in England and Wales, reported in 1964 and recommended that cinemas should be allowed to open anywhere on Sunday and that the charity tax should be abolished. Clause 1(1) of this Bill gives effect to the first of these two recommendations by abrogating the words—and I quote, "to which this section extends", in Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act of 1932. The effect of this Amendment would be to give cinema licensing authorities power anywhere in England or Wales to allow cinemas in their area to open on a Sunday. They would retain power to attach conditions to such an opening, although the second Amendment made in the clause would of course bring to an end the compulsory charity tax condition. But the exercise of these powers would in future, by reason of Clause 2, be subject to a right of appeal.
Subsection (2) abrogates paragraph (b) of the proviso to Section 1(1) of the 1932 Act, which required the licensing authority to make it a condition of Sunday opening that contributions were made to charity and to the Cinematograph Fund from the profit of such an opening. The
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Crathorne Committee recommended the abolition of the charity tax, about which it said—and with this I fully agree—
"We found it difficult to discover that the 'tax' had any moral justification even when it was introduced; if there were ever grounds of expediency, they no longer exist."
Clause 2 gives a right of appeal to any person aggrieved by, first, the refusal by an authority to allow a place to be opened for cinema entertainment on a Sunday or, secondly, any conditions which the authority may have imposed under Section 1(1) of the 1932 Act as amended by this Bill. The clause achieves this by applying the provisions of Section 6(1) and (2) of the 1952 Cinematograph Act to a refusal to allow Sunday opening, and to any conditions relating to Sunday opening imposed by the licensing authority. That section gave a right of appeal to quarter sessions and applied the procedure of the Summary Jurisdiction Act 1879. These provisions have now been amended by the Courts Act 1971, and as at present drafted I am sorry to say that the clause is defective in that it fails to take account of the changes made by the 1971 Act, and in particular the repeal of Section 6(2) of the 1952 Act. If your Lordships give the Bill a Second Reading I propose at the Committee stage to introduce an Amendment to delete from the Bill the reference to Section 6(2) of the Cinematograph Act 1952.
Clause 3 deals with the winding-up of the Cinematograph Fund. Under Section 1 of the 1932 Act cinemas are allowed to open on Sundays subject to licensing control by the local authority and to payment to the licensing authority of a sum, which could be related to the estimated profits of Sunday performances, to go partly to charity and partly to the Cinematograph Fund. The amount of this sum, the charity tax, is fixed by the licensing authority. The proportion which is to go to the Cinematograph Fund is prescribed in the Cinematograph Fund Regulations 1933, and it amounts to 5 per cent. In practice, this percentage has been used to support the British Film Institute. The amounts accruing to the Fund have been dwindling over the years. During the last decade many local authorities have collected a purely nominal amount and some have collected nothing at all. The figures for March, 1971, show a balance of £1,550 after receipts of

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£2,500, expenses of £450 and a grant of £500.
Subsection (1) empowers the Privy Council to wind up the Fund when it appears that no further sums will accrue to it. None can be earned after the date of operation of the Bill, but amounts falling due in respect of the period up to the date of operation of the Bill are likely to trickle in slowly. For this reason, the date of winding-up is left to the Privy Council. This subsection also provides for the disposal of the balance of monies in the Fund in accordance with the purposes for which the Fund was set up, less only appropriate administrative expenses of the Privy Council. Subsection (2) makes provision for the auditing of the final account.
Clause 4 deals with the consequential repeals of the 1932 Act. It provides for the provisions specified in the Schedule to be repealed. As drafted these are all repeals of the 1932 Act. There are, however, certain repeals in other Acts which should be included in the Schedule, and the Bill is defective without those. I propose moving the necessary Amendments at a later stage of the Bill. Clause 5 defines two expressions used in the Bill: "the Act of 1932" means the Sunday Entertainments Act 1932, and "cinematograph entertainment" has the same meaning as in the Act of 1932.
Clause 6 contains the formal provisions for the short title, extent and commencement date. The Act would not, of course, apply to Scotland or Northern Ireland, as the Sunday Entertainments Act 1932 extends only to England and Wales. In Scotland, Sunday observance is controlled by local legislation, and, of course, in Ireland this is a matter for the Northern Ireland Government. Since the purpose of the Bill is only to amend the system set up by the 1932 Act it is unnecessary, I am advised, for it to extend to Scotland. The Act would come into operation on April 1, 1972. For accounting purposes, the obligation to make contributions to the Cinematograph Fund needs to be brought to an end on a quarter day. I propose, therefore, if this Bill is given a Second Reading, to table an Amendment to alter the commencement date to July 1, 1972, the next quarter day, to ensure that the Bill is not lost if it cannot com
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plete all its stages in both Houses before April 1, 1972.
I apologise for the fact that the provisions which this Bill seeks to repeal are rather complicated. Basically, the principles in the Bill were passed by this House when the Bill of my noble friend Lord Willis was considered, and it is really the non-controversial parts of that Bill, and it seeks to bring the law up to date with current practice. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª. —(Lord Strabolgi.)
4.25 p.m.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, on the thorough and authoritative manner in which he has introduced this Bill to your Lordships' House this afternoon. As he has explained, the purpose of the Bill is to implement one of the recommendations of the Crathorne Committee on the Law on Sunday Observance. The first recommendation of that Committee, which reported in 1964, was that cinemas should be allowed to open anywhere on Sunday and that the "charity tax" should be abolished. The purpose of this Bill, as we have heard, is to bring the system of local option to an end, together with the charity tax which was associated with it in 1932.
Noble Lords who have followed this matter will be aware of the various unsuccessful attempts which have been made to implement the Crathorne recommendations concerning sport and entertainment. Several Private Members' Bills have been introduced in the recent past and have encountered strong opposition on a number of issues. The question of the observance of Sunday as a day of rest, the question of employment, and the question of possible noise and nuisance from professional sporting occasions were perhaps the most important of these. But these issues hardly arise, if at all, on the present Bill promoted by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, for the issue of principle was effectively decided in 1932 in an Act which, as he explained, contains provisions safeguarding the position of those who may be employed on Sundays. Since the Act was passed, under the procedure of local option, Sunday cinema opening

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has been introduced in England and Wales in every county borough except one—which, interestingly enough, is in the North-East of England and not in Wales—and steps are in hand, I understand, to introduce it there. It also applies in well over 80 per cent. of the non-county boroughs and in about half of the other county districts. In the light of these figures, it would seem that Sunday cinema opening is acceptable to the great majority of the population, and that the absence of Orders in some, mainly rural, areas is probably more of an indication of the absence of a cinema there than of any opposition to the principle of opening cinemas on Sundays.
In these circumstances, the Government would not wish to raise any objection to the implementation of the principle behind this Bill. Noble Lords appreciate the convention with Private Members' legislation, which prevents me from going beyond a position of neutrality. But I can assure the House that on this occasion the neutrality is a benevolent one. I should like to acknowledge the gratitude which the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, expressed at the beginning of his speech to members of my Department for the advice that they have been able to offer him in drawing up the Bill which is now being introduced.
As regards the provisions of the Bill itself, these appear to be generally in satisfactory form. Clause 1 brings to an end the system of local option, and also the compulsory condition under which contributions to the charity tax are exacted. Although this condition is compulsory, local authorities have a discretion about the amount to be raised under it, and in recent years they have exercised this discretion in such a way as to reduce the contribution from this source to an almost nominal amount. As the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum of the Bill indicates, the Cinematograph Fund stood on March 31, 1971, at £1,550 and receipts in recent years have been of that order. The main change effected by the clause, therefore, is the ending of the system of local option.
I might add that if this Bill passes it will effect an administrative simplification which comes about at a particularly opportune time. Cinema licensing authorities are county and county borough councils, which have the power to dele
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gate this responsibility to district councils or to the local justices. These powers have been exercised in some cases but not in others. The system of local option in the 1932 Act, however, confers the power of local decision on the councils of boroughs (whether county or non-county) and of county districts. Sunday cinema opening may, therefore, be authorised for an area which is not coterminous with that of the cinema licensing authority. I am advised that this has not caused any serious inconvenience up till now, but it is a matter which could possibly cause some difficulty under local government reorganisation in the future.
It might be thought that although the Bill brings to an end the formal system of local option, it leaves a degree of discretion with the local licensing authority in that under the 1932 Act, as it would be amended by the Bill, it remains a matter for the licensing authority to decide whether to allow a cinema to open on a Sunday. I am, however, advised that, Parliament having decided in principle that Sunday cinema opening should be lawful, it would not be open to an individual authority to refuse to allow a cinema to open solely on this ground. There might, of course, be some specific ground on which the licensing authority might justify a refusal to allow Sunday opening but it would have to be a reason which did not depend solely on the issue of principle of Sunday observance. To put the matter beyond doubt, Clause 2 of the Bill gives a right of appeal against refusal to allow a cinema to open on Sunday or against any of the conditions attached to the licence in respect of Sunday opening. This will ensure that the purpose of the Bill cannot be circumvented by the imposition of unreasonable conditions.
Clause 3 of the Bill makes provision for the winding up of the Cinematograph Fund, which is already almost moribund, as I have pointed out. Indeed, the Bill provides not only for the demise of the Fund but also for the decent burial of the remains and appropriate obituary notice in the form of a final audit. The remaining provisions in the Bill concern various repeals and formal matters.
In his opening speech, the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, has already drawn your Lordships' attention to one or two small points in the Bill in which it is technically

919
defective. As he told your Lordships, since the Bill was first drafted last Session the Crown Court Act 1971 has been passed, and has made certain amendments to the appeal provisions in Section 6 of the Cinematograph Act 1952 which are applied by Clause 2 of the Bill. A minor amendment of the Bill is needed to take account of this. There is also the question of the date on which the Bill is to come into operation, and the noble Lord told us that he has in mind an Amendment concerning that as well.
Therefore, my Lords, the Government's advice to your Lordships is that this is a measure on which individual noble Lords will wish to make up their own minds. The position of the Government is that it is neutral in this matter but, given the circumstances, this is a neutrality which I have already described as benevolent. I must, however, make clear that no Government time can be made available for the Bill in another place, and if it is successful in your Lordships' House it will need to succeed elsewhere on its own merits. The Bill, as drafted, as I have mentioned' and as the promoter has acknowledged, has certain minor defects, but these can be put right and, if suitably amended and approved by Parliament, this Bill would constitute a useful simplification of the present law in this field.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I should like to thank the Minister for his remarks and for the general welcome that he has given to the Bill, while of course maintaining his benevolent neutrality.
On Question, Bill read 2ª, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

ROAD TRAFFIC (FOREIGN VEHICLES) BILL [H.L.]
4.35 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (LORD SANDFORD): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Sandford.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD MERTHYR in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Power in certain cases to prohibit driving of foreign vehicles]:
LORD CHAMPION LORD CHAMPION moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 1, line 14, at end insert—
("or (c) an authorised person exercises, in relation to the driver of the vehicle, any functions of that person under Part III of the Road Traffic Act 1971 (Licensing of Drivers of Vehicles)").
The noble Lord said: The first Amendment which appears in my name on the Marshalled List is a paving Amendment for Amendment No. 4, and does not make sense without reference to No. 4. Therefore, if I have the Committee's permission, I propose to discuss both together. What I am seeking to ensure by these Amendments is that the standard of driving of foreign vehicles operated on the roads of this country is at least as good as the driving we expect from our own lorry drivers. In the main, I am glad to say, we certainly do get excellent driving from most of our own lorry drivers; indeed, one feels reasonably safe when approaching them or passing them in most circumstances, where they can in fact help you.
When we were discussing the Second Reading of this Bill on Wednesday of last week both the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, and I raised the point about the knowledge, or otherwise, of our Highway Code for foreign drivers of goods and public service vehicles coming into our country. I must admit that I myself had a doubt about this, but I had no personal experience or knowledge. My doubt was removed by the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, whom I am now glad to see in his place. I am rather hoping that he may be able to support this Amendment. I hope he will not mind if I remind the Committee of what he said. He told us of his conversation with a Belgian driver of a large lorry—or "juggernaut", as such vehicles are sometimes called—who appeared to be an admirable driver with an unblemished record, but who admitted that when he came here for the first time he had never heard of the Highway Code. We did not learn from the noble Lord—and perhaps he did not inquire—on which of his subsequent visits here the Belgian driver

921
did learn of the Highway Code and get to know something about it, or indeed the extent of the knowledge which I suppose he now has.
To the questions on this matter put by the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, and myself, no reply was made by the noble Lord, Lord Sandford. I make no complaint about this, as clearly the Minister was in some difficulty in trying to fit his reply into a very tight and difficult schedule, occasioned by the nature of the debate that was to follow. It seems to me to be axiomatic that if a professional driver is to drive on the roads of a foreign country he ought to be aware of the rules governing his conduct on the roads of that country. That surely must apply whether it is a British driver on the roads of the Continent, or a foreign driver driving on our roads here.
The difficulties of this I readily admit. The difficulty of language is an immediate and obvious one. The difficulty of language comes in reading a document written in another language, no matter how simply it is expressed. I cannot imagine that many of our drivers would be able to read a code of conduct for the roads in Germany, which was written in German. I cannot imagine that many of our drivers would be able to read a similar code of conduct written in French. Perhaps I may add to that by saying that some of the drivers who travel in both directions have a few rather stumbling phrases which they have picked up, and which enable them to ask directions on the road, but that is about all. What I say here is that translations ought to be available to drivers, so that they may understand what is happening. For example, if I were a transport operator with vehicles operating in Germany, I should expect to provide my drivers with a translation of the main rules governing their conduct when driving in Germany; and the same would apply to anyone driving in France and so on.
The last thing I wish to do is to place anything in the nature of an insuperable bar in the way of the continuing expansion of our trade with countries with whom we stand in an excellent trade relationship to-day, and may very well stand in an even better trade relationship in the future. As far back as 1965, the value of our exports to Europe stood at a figure of 40 per cent. of all British
922
exports. It may be much higher to-day, but I do not have the latest figure. But, certainly, if the hope of the pro-Marketeers is realised, our trade will be greatly in excess of the present figure after our entry into Europe. But having said that, I am bound to say that we cannot agree to the expansion of this sort of traffic at any price; and, certainly, not at the price of road safety. This is the important point in this connection. Perhaps I ought to say, for the sake of accuracy, that not all of the trade is dependent on roll-on, roll-off goods vehicles; much is being carried by rail ferry ships and by the new container traffic, the use of which is increasing daily.
To use the words of the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, this Bill has been introduced to deal with
" … the heavy foreign vehicles that arrive here overweight, unsafe, without documents, and being driven by one driver for far longer than our laws permit. These offences, shortcomings and abuses are serious and widespread."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1/12/71; col. 272.]
This is a serious position and this Committee must clearly direct its attention to it. In connection with the road safety aspect, the only mention of the driver in the Bill is in the first column of Schedule 2, and the effect of the appropriate sections of the Transport Act 1968 is to limit the time and periods of duty of drivers of goods and public service vehicles, to require the installation of recording equipment in such vehicles and the keeping of records. There is nothing at all in the Bill about the standards to be obtained by the driver of the vehicle. But, certainly, we ought to demand from foreign drivers as high a standard of driving competence as we expect from our own drivers. That is why the first of the effective parts of this Amendment seeks to ensure that such drivers are conversant with the Highway Code. I must say that I should prefer to meet a substandard vehicle driven by a first-class driver, than a very good vehicle driven by a substandard driver. But, of course, we must aim at such a standard that neither is met on our roads.
The second part of Amendment No. 4 deals with a certificate of competence to drive lorries, especially heavy goods lorries, to be held by the driver. The

923
Amendment specifies that such a certificate should be in accordance with
" … regulations made under an international agreement in pursuance of section 100 of the Transport Act 1968."
That Act was passed just over three years ago, and Section 100 authorises the Minister to make by order
" … such provision as appears to him to be requisite for enabling the United Kingdom to become a party to any international agreement relating to the drivers or crews of vehicles used on international journeys".
When it fell to me to consider this Bill in readiness for the Committee stage, I sought information about any order or orders made under Section 100, and I was profoundly disturbed to learn that no order had been made and laid before Parliament.
As I understood what the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, said during the Second Reading debate, there are some bilateral road haulage agreements with certain other Continental countries. But I have not discovered whether such agreements cover the points that I have raised about competence to drive heavy goods vehicles, or about drivers needing a reasonable knowledge of the road codes obtaining in such countries. The question that I have to ask is: do such bilateral agreements cover the drivers and crews of these vehicles on international journeys? Clearly, there can be no substitute for the sort of agreement postulated in Section 100 of the Transport Act 1968. In my opinion, even the bilateral agreements would not satisfy the conditions required by that section. What I am asking for here is a statement on the present position, three years after the passing of the 1968 Act.
In conclusion, I make no pretence at all that these Amendments are in such a form that they would satisfy the Parliamentary draftsmen. But I think their purpose is clear and, if the Minister is prepared to accept the substance and will promise to bring in suitable Amendments at Report stage, I shall be happy to withdraw them immediately. I can round off what I have been trying to say by asserting that the public is entitled to demand the protection of its safety by the promotion of high standards of vehicle operation covering their size and maintenance, and perhaps, above all, the com
924
petence of the men who drive these vehicles. I beg to move.
4.49 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: Since the noble Lord opposite was good enough to refer to some remarks that I made during the Second Reading debate, perhaps I may say one or two words by way of comment on his Amendments. I had told your Lordships of an occasion when I interviewed a driver of one lorry in Belgrave Square. Although he was an extremely experienced man, he told me that he had never heard of the Highway Code, and he obviously spoke no English at all. Furthermore, he knew nothing about the restrictions upon his vehicle over certain roads and certain bridges, and did not know how he could find that information in order that he should cause the least inconvenience to other users of the road.
For fear lest your Lordships might consider the one example that I have given insufficient in a case such as this, I have now carried out certain other inquiries—another six, to be exact, all in Belgrave Square, which is within walking distance of my home. The six lorry drivers I have interrogated since I spoke on the Second Reading of this Bill all said exactly the same thing: that they had never heard of the Highway Code and knew nothing about restrictions on the use of their vehicles. What was much worse, none of them could understand a word of English. They were all also highly experienced, thoroughly responsible and thoroughly respectable men. I think it is going to be very difficult for my noble friend the Minister to incorporate into this Bill the points which the noble Lord opposite made in moving his Amendment. I can well see that it is not really germane to what the Government have in mind. All I would ask my noble friend Lord Sandford is whether he will look at this point to see if it is possible to deal with it by some administrative means, if the Bill cannot cover it, or indeed by mere persuasion. I believe that these people, these good drivers of these heavy lorries, are only too willing to comply with our law and to do everything they can to make themselves acceptable, because they want to come here in increasing numbers and do a decreasing amount of damage. I support the noble Lord's Amendment in spirit, but I must confess that I think

925
he has little chance of getting it incorporated in the Bill in the way in which he has drafted it.
LORD HAWKE: I think the noble Lord, Lord Champion, has raised a matter of very considerable complexity. From the points he made in his speech I was not quite sure whether he was advocating that the owners of these Continental vehicles should see that their men are instructed in the main points required to drive on British roads or in the full Highway Code. But, whereas the main Points might not be utterly impracticable, I think it is probably wildly impracticable to expect all the Continental drivers who come here—and, conversely, all the British drivers who drive on the Continent—to be completely au fait with every Highway Code in every country through which they pass. And, of course, what is sauce for the lorries is also sauce for the private drivers. Many noble Lords and many people in this country set out from Calais and motor through Spain, Italy, France, Switzerland and Austria. Have they ever seen the Highway Codes of those countries? I very much doubt it. The obvious answer—and I do not know whether my noble friend can tell me about this—is that if we go into Europe there must be a universal Highway Code printed in various languages. One could then expect people to know something about it. But it seems to me that, as the noble Lord has approached the matter, he has got on to something pretty impracticable.
4.53 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD: I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving the Committee an opportunity to discuss this whole business of drivers' competence and for giving me an opportunity to expand quite a bit on what I had to say, in rather limited terms, for reasons which he recognised, during Second Reading. I think it is important to realise that what we are concerned with in the whole of this Bill is finding effective ways to enforce our legislation on visiting foreign goods vehicles and their drivers. When we have succeeded in doing that, as I am sure we shall through this legislation, the other things which, for the reasons that my noble friend Lord Mancroft gave, are really better handled by administrative
926
action will be better handled. At the moment, there is a general ineffectiveness which not only has its effect on matters which should be enforced by legislative and statutory means but which also has a harmful and damaging effect on matters which probably are possible of enforcement effectively only by administrative arrangements. But I will come to that in a moment.
Perhaps I could deal now with the Amendment as it stands, and accept the noble Lord's suggestion that we should consider Amendments Nos. 1 and 4 together. First of all, I would say that Part III of the Road Traffic Act 1971, which is mentioned in Amendment No. 1, deals with the granting of British drivers' licences by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. It does not relate, and could not relate, to the foreign drivers of visiting foreign commercial vehicles. Foreign drivers duly licensed in their own country do not have to obtain British driving licences. By international agreement, foreign domestic driving licences which have been issued after the foreign driver has given proof in his own country of his competence may be used in this country for a period of up to 12 months. The holding of this licence, issued in his own country, also exempts the foreign driver from the need to acquire a British heavy goods vehicle licence or a British public service vehicle licence.
As respects the Highway Code, which is mentioned in the noble Lord's Amendment No. 4, a British driving test examiner has power to question a native British driver on his knowledge of the Highway Code only during a driving test. To take power to examine visiting foreign drivers at any time, and to prohibit their driving if they were found not to be "reasonably conversant" with our Highway Code, would be discriminatory: it would be against our forthcoming obligations under the Treaty of Rome, and it would run counter to the liberal transport policy which is now internationally agreed. But, having said that, I shall be very glad to respond, and at some length, to the noble Lord's request for some indication as to how we impart our Highway Code to foreign visiting drivers. As my noble friend Lord Mancroft anticipated it would be, this is something that is much better done by administrative

927
measures; and these are what they are. First, a simplified form of the Highway Code, in French and German, is available for foreign drivers. These have been sent to many foreign haulage concerns; and perhaps I could pass a copy across the Table for the noble Lord, Lord Champion, to see. They are available for issue to foreign drivers at the ports. A reprint of the summary of the Highway Code is shortly to be undertaken, and that reprint will be ready for distribution at all ferry ports next year. It will be available as these new arrangements come into force.
The noble Lord, also in Amendment No. 4, mentions Section 100 of the Transport Act 1968. This section occurs in Part VI of that Act, and was intended principally to cover drivers' hours and records. The "international agreement" referred to in this section could be, for example, the A.E.T.R. agreement, which is the European agreement concerning the work of crews of vehicles engaged in international road transport' promoted by the Economic Commission for Europe of the United Nations. This agreement requires drivers' record books to be carried but does not provide for certificates of competence to be held by drivers generally. It does, however, deal with certificates of competence as regards ability to drive vehicles in the case of persons aged from 18 to 21. The United Kingdom is a signatory to the A.E.T.R., but to ratify it requires an order under Section 100. When eight countries have ratified the agreement, it will come into force after 180 days. An order under Section 100 is at present being drafted. If and when A.E.T.R. is introduced into Great Britain under Section 100, then the prohibition procedure envisaged by the Bill will apply, since Section 100 of the Transport Act 1968 is mentioned in Schedule 2 to the Bill.
The noble Lord may be intending that police constables and examiners should be able to prohibit driving when a valid driving licence is not being carried. Powers of inspection of driving licences are contained in Part VII of the Road Traffic Act 1971, the consolidating Act. If I may, I will repeat what I said during the Second Reading, because it is relevant at this point. Drivers of foreign goods vehicles should carry appropriate driving licences and Section 225(4) of
928
the Road Traffic Act 1960 allows the driver of a vehicle five days in which to produce that licence. In these circumstances it would be difficult to justify immediately imposing a prohibition notice on a foreign vehicle for apparent lack of a driving licence. That power does not exist in relation to a British driver.
I hope that that explanation will satisfy the Committee that there are international agreements adequate and appropriate to cover driving standards and that this is the right way in which to ensure that we have them. I hope that it will also satisfy the Committee that this Amendment, although absolutely right in intent, and although the Government have complete sympathy with it, would unbalance these international agreements. I hope also the Committee will agree with the point made by my noble friend Lord Mancroft, which I have been endorsing: that to secure the kind of things Lord Champion wants is better done by administrative arrangements within a tighter enforcement policy. I hope that, after that explanation, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD HAWKE: May I ask whether the Minister will answer my question about whether there is to be a universal Highway Code if we go into Europe?
LORD SANDFORD: I apologise for not answering that question. I think not; but so far as can be foreseen there will be a series of national highway codes—because each country's code will differ—embraced within a code of international agreements which may become tighter, firmer and more detailed as we progress.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHESTER: I have a great deal of sympathy with the intention behind the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Champion; but having listened to the speech of Lord Sandford I appreciate the difficulties and I welcome his assurance that the point raised by Lord Champion will be dealt with by administrative action. However, I want to question what I think was implicit in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hawke: the suggestion that drivers could not be expected to know all the highway codes or their equivalent in all the countries through which they are

929
driving. Surely, if they are driving through a number of countries on the Continent then it should be expected of them that they should know what standards are expected in these other contries. Indeed, each section of the foreign guide issued by the Automobile Association begins with a passage setting out in simple terms what are the standards required in that particular country. If drivers of ordinary vehicles in this country can be examined on our own Highway Code, how essential it is that drivers of large and potentially-dangerous commercial vehicles should at least know the standards that we require in this country !
LORD HAWKE: May I make a point of explanation here. I was referring to the Highway Code as being a rather voluminous set of rules and regulations and not to the simple rules which the right reverend Prelate visualises in some guide. I very much doubt whether he himself when driving on the Continent has mastered in detail the highway codes of every country through which he has driven.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHESTER: I accept the noble Lords' point and I hope that he will also accept the point I am making, which is that it is essential that drivers of heavy commercial vehicles in this country should be expected to know what are the standards that we require in this country. In conclusion, may I say how much I welcome the assurances given by Lord Sandford that these matters will be dealt with administratively.
LORD NUNBURNHOLME: May I ask one simple question? I think Lord Sandford said that provided foreign drivers were qualified in their own country, they would be qualified to drive in this country for 12 months. What happens after that?
LORD SANDFORD: They have to get a British licence if they want to drive continuously in this country.
LORD CHAMPION: I am grateful for the support which this Amendment has received. Obviously, the Committee have recognised the importance of the points which lay behind the actual moving of the Amendment. I am a fairly old Parliamentary hand, old enough to
930
realise that this Bill is not perhaps the right vehicle for what I sought to do; and here I would agree with the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, to whom I am particularly grateful for his illustrations further backing up the points I made when we last discussed this matter. His plea to his noble friend, as I understand it, has been completely accepted: that this is something which will be done (in so far as it still remains to be done) by administrative means. At least I have learned something from Lord Sandford that I did not know before: that this simple guide, in French and German, is sent out by his Department to many foreign haulage firms.
The noble Lord, Lord Hawke, said that this idea was impracticable. I am bound to say that I agree with the right reverend Prelate that it ought to be possible for people to know the highway codes of other countries when they take upon themselves the responsibility of driving in those countries. I recognise the difficulties here and I agree with Lord Sandford that the setting up of an international code will surely follow our entry into the enlarged E.E.C., and that that code will he applicable to all the countries which will then constitute that body. The last thing that I would wish—I think I made mention of this in my speech; and I agree too, with Lord Sandford—in a matter of this sort is to be discriminatory, for the obvious reason, to put it at its lowest, that other countries would retaliate. These things must be reciprocal. Having said that, and in view of the assurances which the Committee have secured as a result of the Amendment which I moved, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.9 p.m.
LORID CHAMPION LORID CHAMPION moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 1, line 14, at end insert—
or
(d) the licensing authority exercises any function in relation to a large goods vehicle as defined in section 71 of the Transport Act 1968.").
The noble Lord said: Like my first Amendment, this is a paving Amendment and in this case it leads to Amendment No. 5. If the Committee agree I propose to discuss Amendments Nos. 2 and 5 together. This is a simple Amendment

931
aimed at ensuring that so far as possible large goods vehicles leaving our ports follow routes prescribed by a competent person, and drawn up with regard to the use of roads believed suited to the type of vehicle. With the improvements which are taking place, many of our roads are suitable for the type of vehicles we have in mind, but thousands of miles of our roads are still totally unsuited to the long and wide vehicles which arrive from abroad. Also I must add that they are used daily by our own operators. Motorists who follow these large vehicles for miles along narrow roads find their impatience mounting and this leads them to "chance their arm" and attempt to pass. This is responsible for head-on killer collisions. We may have all suffered from that sort of frustration, and if seriously challenged I think that most of us would confess to taking a risk at times and afterwards admitting to ourselves that it was a very silly thing to do. It seems to me that there can be nothing objectionable about routing vehicles along roads best suited to their bulk, any more than there is about enforcing a route in a town by a system of one-way streets. Often it is the case that a greater distance by a better road proves to be a much quicker route, and time is of the essence in respect of economic road transport.
The Ministry of Transport White Paper told us that an improvement in road safety depended on safer roads, safer vehicles and safer drivers and pedestrians. To that I would add that until we get the safer roads we require we need to route vehicles along the, safer roads which we have already. The Economic Development Committee for the Movement of Exports, under the chairmanship of the noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, reported in 1966. One of its recommendations was:
"The drawing up of recommended routes for heavy traffic should be expedited and more impetus given to the programme for strengthening certain bridges."
I do not know whether that recommendation has been implemented. If it has, I have never seen it. But if by any chance it has been implemented, have foreign vehicle operators been advised of the recommended routes? If recommended routes are available, are the Department of the Environment officers employed at the ports aware of them,
932
and do they advise foreign drivers accordingly? I think this routeing is necessary in connection with the passage of traffic to and from our older ports; it is even more necessary in connection with the rapidly expanding ports such as Felixstowe. The roads in the Eastern Counties are not suited for the sort of traffic which now travels to and from the port of Felixstowe and other rapidly developing East Coast ports. Felixstowe is developing so as to deal with a large amount of heavy Continental traffic, mainly container traffic, and the roads to and from Felixstowe badly need widening. In the meantime, I believe it would be possible to improve the passage of traffic if it were routed over the best roads available. This simple Amendment does not require a great deal of explanation. The problem is one which needs airing and I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say. I beg to move.
LORD FERRIER: I take it that I shall be correct in speaking to Amendment No. 5 with Amendment No. 2. I wish to support what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Champion. As I walked from the House last Thursday, at a few minutes after nine o'clock at night on the corner of Bridge Street I saw an enormous vehicle, with Spanish registration numbers, which came from Madrid. It was articulated and must have been over 60 ft. in length. It turned into Parliament Square and as I walked across Whitehall it appeared again. In turning into Whitehall it went right across the road and almost touched the kerb of the island in the middle of Whitehall. I took a cab and followed the vehicle, which went round Trafalgar Square and, to my astonishment, down Northumberland Avenue. Presumably it then turned on to the Embankment because the driver had known he could not get on to the Embankment from Bridge Street. He also must have known that he could get on to the Embankment from the turn under the Charing Cross Bridge.
I mention this in support of my feelings about this Amendment. The vehicle I saw was an enormous one and appeared to be beautifully equipped. It was superbly driven, although it was a left-handed drive. If the driver was a foreigner who knew no English and did not know his way about London, it was

933
a magnificent piece of driving; but I think that it must have been a British driver. He took this extraordinary route to reach the Embankment and was presumably on his way to the docks. I do not wish to say more, except to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Champion, that if the Government accept the Amendment we shall get close to what a number of noble Lords have said: that the time is coming—we mentioned this only last week in two different debates, one about by-passing important towns—when large vehicles will have to be routed and confined to certain specified roads.
VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD: I heartily support this Amendment. I have seen these enormous Continental lorries in small country towns. It is difficult for the drivers to get them round corners and they cause the most appalling congestion. Although I do not know how it could be done, I think that long vehicles such as these, the majority of which come from the Continent, ought to be prevented from travelling too near one another. If two such vehicles are too close together it is almost impossible to pass them. Another aspect of this matter is that if these enormous vehicles are allowed to travel through small country towns where there is old property by the side of the roads, eventually, through the vibration which the vehicles cause, the houses will be shaken down. I hope that my noble friend can give your Lordships some encouragement that the Government will accept the Amendment.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHESTER: I support what is contained in the Amendment, but I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, will point out that there are considerable practical difficulties. At least the noble Lord, Lord Champion, is putting a very important principle before us, to which reference has also been made by the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier. We have not sufficient roads to carry these vast vehicles and we have to make the best possible use of the limited resources that we have. As is well known to your Lordships, one of the main difficulties is that often roads from motorways to areas where these very large vehicles have to go are most unsuitable to carry heavy weights, so it
934
is all the more important that there should be careful directions about where these vehicles can go.
We in Cheshire are only too well aware of this problem. We have heavy vehicles coming from Liverpool and Manchester which have to get on to the M.6 and they have to travel on unsuitable roads. Therefore it is all the more important that they should be told exactly where they may go. There is a further point that the ring roads provided in some cities are not used by the drivers of these very heavy vehicles. They travel through the middle of the cities along streets which are incapable of accommodating such traffic. Therefore I hope that the principle contained in the noble Lord's Amendment will be seriously and sympathetically considered by Her Majesty's Government.
5.20 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD: Perhaps I may remind the Committee of the purpose of the powers that we are taking under this limited Bill. It gives us powers of enforcement that are appropriate for use against foreign goods vehicles, because the current procedures appropriate for British-based vehicles and their drivers have proved ineffective against foreign goods vehicles and their drivers. In doing this, as I have said, we have to take care—and we are taking care—not to impose any rules, regulations, restrictions or requirements on foreign vehicles and their drivers that we do not impose on our own heavy vehicles and their drivers. To do this would be to discriminate on grounds of nationality; it would conflict with the existing liberal international agreements, and it would run counter to our forthcoming E.E.C. obligations.
But the desire of the noble Lord, Lord Champion, that heavy vehicles should be restricted to roads capable of accommodating them is certainly not only appreciated but widely shared—there is not a Member of this Committee who would not share it—and not least by my right honourable friend the Minister for Transport Industries and my right honourable friend the Secetary of State for the Environment. In his recent speech at the Conservative Party Conference the Minister stressed that the heavy lorries of the future should be confined to roads

935
properly able to accommodate them; and my right honourable friend is at present discussing with the industry the problems associated with the heavy lorry and the environment—the sort of issues raised by my noble friend Lord Massereene and Ferrard just now—and, in particular, the driving of heavy lorries in places unsuited for their presence; our historic towns, for example.
My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, in announcing the construction of a further 1,000 miles of motorway to be ready by the early 1980s, stressed that one of the aims was,
"to achieve environmental improvement by diverting long-distance traffic, and particularly heavy goods vehicles, from a large number of towns and villages so as to relieve them from the noise, dirt and danger that they suffer at present."
He went on to say:
"Priorities within the programme will reflect the Government's aim to provide adequate access to the major docks well within the time span for the whole programme."
The whole programme goes up to the early 'eighties. All this will apply to all heavy goods vehicles of all nationalities, British and foreign. It does not, I submit, call for mention in this Bill, which is solely concerned with enforcement procedures against foreign goods vehicles. But it does involve an expanded road programme (and I have given the Committee the relevant quotations from that) and then involves—but only then—proper routing of all lorries on to proper routes for them when such routes are available. The trunk network linked to the major ports will be complete by the early 'eighties.
I hope that the Committee, having heard that explanation, will accept that we are fully aware of this problem, and are tackling it, but that an Amendment to this Bill restricted to foreign goods vehicles would not be appropriate for securing it. Nevertheless, I am grateful to the noble Lord for having moved the Amendment, because it has given me the opportunity of making this explanation to the Committee and the Committee the opportunity of discussing it.
LORD CHAMPION: It is one of the advantages of this House that almost invariably if you start a discussion on
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something you will find somebody who has personal experience and is willing to give your Lordships the benefit of that personal experience. In the first Amendment that I moved, clearly it was the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft; and now the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, is able to support this Amendment by his personal experience which happened so recently. We have had also the right reverend Prelate with his experience of the roads in Cheshire. I happen to know something about the M.6 and some of the roads off it, and I know well the difficulties which can arise from trying to follow some of the vehicles that have been "batting" along at 60 and 70 m.p.h. on the M.6 and then find themselves cut down to the sort of speed at which they ought to be going on some of these roads that the right reverend Prelate and I happen to know.
I agree with the right reverend Prelate that quite often the ring roads are not used properly by vehicles, and I sometimes wonder whether the difficulty arises from bad routing signs, which occasionally are found in some of our towns. Perhaps to some extent the position has been improved recently, but I remember once trying to get down from Birmingham on the old A.38 and I was directed out towards the ring road. I followed the signs for some distance, and then suddenly lost them. My difficulty was that it took me longer to get back into the centre of the city and to start all over again down the middle of it than it would have done if I had gone slap through the middle in the first instance.
I think the Amendment has served a good purpose. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, told us what the Tory Party Conference were told. I am bound to say that it makes me feel that Tory Party Conferences may be of some use after all. Perhaps Parliament should have been told first, and not the Tory Party Conference. But having stirred the noble Lord up to the point where he has repeated the words used at the Conference, where they were sensibly used, I am bound to say that I am grateful for the fact that he has to-day told us of them. As I made clear in introducing the first Amendment, I put it down in order that I might extract information and to bring to the attention

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of the Department what is the feeling of the Committee. I believe that the feeling of the Committee in this matter is that something ought to be done in respect of all the points that I have raised, and those that have been raised by other Members on the Amendments. Having regard to that, and to the reply that I received from the noble Lord, for which I thank him, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.27 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 2, line 16, at end insert ("or will be exceeded if the vehicle is driven on a road").
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 3, and with the agreement of the Committee I will take the opportunity to speak to Amendment No. 6, which is linked with it. This is a small and rather tiresome point which it is difficult to deal with except at some length, and I hope that the Committee will bear with me. The Government have given an assurance that the enforcement powers sought in the Bill will be exercised mainly at the ports of entry. Offending vehicles will be prohibited from proceeding on to our roads. To enforce existing road traffic laws in ports it is necessary to be sure that offending vehicles can legally be prohibited from proceeding and that the enforcement officers can legally exercise their enforcement powers in the port areas. The difficulty arises from the fact that ports do not have roads fully falling within the definition of "road" given in Clause 6(1) of the Bill. These Amendments seek to ensure that enforcement will be effective in the dock areas.
Amendment No. 3 merely brings sub-section (3)(b) of Clause 1 (powers of authorised persons in relation to the weighing of vehicles) into line with subsection (2)(b) (powers of examiners in relation to other potential contraventions of enactments). The phrase is necessary since no weight contravention has in fact occurred until a vehicle is actually used on a road. The legal requirements as to weights arc at present laid down in the Construction and Use Regulations 1969, made under Section 64 of the Road Traffic Act 1960. That section makes it an offence to use on a road a motor vehicle or
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trailer which does not comply with the regulations made under that section. However, as I mentioned, ports do not have roads in the full legal sense. This Amendment will enable an authorised person to prohibit the driving on a road of a vehicle which would commit a weight offence if it were to be driven on a road. The authorised person must have reason for thinking that the vehicle would be driven in an overweight condition on the road.
If I may now speak to Amendment No. 6, the need for this stems from our latest legal advice that the powers to require the weighing of vehicles contained in Section 224 of the Road Traffic Act 1960, which will become Section 160 of the Road Traffic Act 1971 when that is effective, could be held by the courts not to extend to areas such as ports, which do not all have roads within the definition in Clause 6 (1). There never has been a test case. Since the Government attach considerable importance to implementing the powers at the ports, there should be no doubt that vehicles can be required to be weighed when they are on harbour land. The opportunity has therefore been taken in this respect to clarify Section 224 of the Road Traffic Act 1960.
This new clause will therefore enable an authorised person to require a foreign goods vehicle, any trailer drawn by it and a foreign public service vehicle to proceed to a weighbridge and to be weighed when the vehicle is on "harbour land". "Authorised person" means one of the Department of the Environment's examiners, a certifying officer, an authorised police constable and a Weights and Measures inspector. "Harbour land" means for all practical purposes (a) land which is part of a harbour; and (b) land which is adjacent to a harbour and is occupied wholly or partly for the purposes of "harbour operations" defined in Section 57(1) of the Harbours Act 1964. "Harbour operations" includes inter alia(i) the warehousing, sorting, weighing or handling of goods on harbour land or at a wharf; and (ii) the movement of goods or passengers within the limits within which the person engaged in improving, maintaining or managing a harbour has jurisdiction or on harbour land. The Docks and Harbour

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Authorities Association have been consulted and are in agreement in principle with the Amendment. Naturally, permission will have to be granted by the individual port concerned before an authorised person conducts checks on their property.
This foreign vehicles Bill can only clarify the existing legislation in relation to foreign vehicles. To avoid any charge of discrimination it will be necessary to introduce a similar provision in relation to British vehicles. I want to take this opportunity to assure the Committee that legislation will be introduced at the earliest opportunity. I want to give that assurance not only to this Committee but to put it on record for the international haulage industry as a whole, so as to give an assurance that by taking measures in this Bill we do not intend to discriminate against foreign vehicles and to leave our own vehicles untouched by similar legislation. I hope that that explanation of this small point will satisfy the Committee. I beg to move.
LORD CHAMPION: I am sorry I cannot retort to the noble Lord that I fear this is not within the terms of the 1971 Bill. As a matter of fact it seems to me to be wholly so, if I have understood what the noble Lord has said. It is true that his speech was a little involved when he talked about roads, roads, roads and they seemed to come in such rapid succession that it was a job to tell which roads he was actually referring to. But I am bound to say that it seems to me sensible that these powers should be added, and from this side I would have no objection to that.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 1, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD FERRIER: I will not detain the Committee long but I think that the point I wish to raise can be dealt with more quickly under the Question, Whether the Clause shall stand part than under the Schedule. It is this: In Clause 1(1) mention is made of Schedule 1. In Clause 1(2) reference is made to the second Schedule. I told your Lordships the story of the massive foreign vehicle which I saw on Thursday. My recollection is that it did not have the requisite notice
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"Long vehicle" on the back. It occurs to me that under Schedule 2 (page 9 line 26) the requirements of Section 91(1)(c) of the Transport Act do not go far enough in requiring the authorised person to see that the vehicle has such a notice as "Long vehicle" on it. The requirements refer solely to registration marks. I put this forward simply as a matter of interest and to ask the noble Lord if he would be good enough to look into that. I think it should be covered in this Bill because it is so clearly said in this Bill that we are referring to foreign vehicles. I would only like to say one other word. I am sorry that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester has gone, but the noble Lord, Lord Champion, referred to ring roads and nobody mentioned by-passes. I think it is very important, now that ring routes specify a route on existing roads, that we should try to keep the distinction in the description between ring routes and "bypasses".
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 2, 3 and 4 agreed to.
LORD SANDFORD: I beg to move Amendment No. 6:
Amendment moved—
After Clause 4. insert the following new clause—
Application of Road Traffic Act 1971, s. 160, to vehicles on harbour land
".—(l)The powers conferred by subsection (1) of section 160 of the Road Traffic Act 1971 (whereby an authorised person is empowered to require the person in charge of a motor vehicle to allow the vehicle or any trailer drawn thereby to be weighed, and the weight transmitted to the road by any parts of the vehicle or trailer in contact with the road to be tested, and for that purpose to proceed to a weighbridge or other machine for weighing vehicles) shall be exercisable in relation to the person in charge of a motor vehicle which is a foreign goods vehicle or a foreign public service vehicle and is for the time being on land to which this section applies, whether that land is or is not a road, and whether apart from this section those powers would be so exercisable or not; and any reference in that section to those powers or to such a requirement shall be construed accordingly.
(2) This section applies to any land which forms part of a harbour or which is adjacent to a harbour and is occupied wholly or partly tor the purposes of harbour operations.
(3) In this section "harbour" and "harbour operations" have the meanings assigned to

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them by section 57(1) of the Harbours Act 1964."—Lord Sandford.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Clause 6 [Interpretation and transitional provisions]:
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 8, line 18, at end insert—
("( )In relation to any time before the coming into operation of section 160 of the Road Traffic Act 1971 (in this subsection referred to as "section 160")—

(a) in section (Application of Road Traffic Act 1971, s. 160, to vehicles on harbour land) of this Act the reference to subsection (1) of section 160 shall be construed as a reference to subsection (1) of section 224 of the Road Traffic Act 1960, and

(b) in section 1 of this Act, and in subsection (1) of this section, any reference to section 160 shall be construed as a reference to section 224 of that Act read together with section (Application of Road Traffic Act 1971, s. 160, to vehicles on harbour land) of this Act and with the preceding paragraph;

and in relation to any time after the coming into operation of section 160 any reference in section 1 of this Act, or in subsection (1) of this section, to section 160 shall be construed as a reference to section 160 read together with section (Application of Road Traffic Act 1971, s. 160, to vehicles on harbour land) of this Act.")
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment 7 and at the same time to speak to Amendment 8. We cannot know for certain at this precise moment whether this Bill will come into effect before or after the Road Traffic Act 1971. which is a consolidation Bill due to become effective on April 1, 1972. Subsection (7) of Clause 6 is required to cater for either contingency, and that subsection now needs further amendment to cater for Amendments Nos. 3 and 6, to which the Committee has just agreed. This further Amendment is provided for by Amendments 7 and 8. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SANDFORD: I beg to move Amendment No. 8:
Amendment moved:
Page 8, line 26, leave out from ("Schedule") to end of line 29.—(Lord Sandford.)
Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause and Schedules agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported with the Amendments.

MAINTENANCE ORDERS (RECI PROCAL ENFORCEMENT) BILL [H.L.]
5.40 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD HAILS' IAM OF ST. MARYLEBONE): My Lords, I rise to move the Second Reading of this Bill. This is a Home Office Bill, but it has been thought appropriate that the task of explaining its provisions to this House should fall to me, partly because it is, I suppose, in its essence a matter of law reform. I find some hesitation in putting the terms of this Bill before the House because it is both lengthy and somewhat complex, and is difficult to explain. It may take some length of time to explain it, if I approach my task conscientiously. The Bill provides a means whereby dependants (wives, mothers or children) in this country may obtain maintenance from a person over-seas whose duty it is to maintain them, and likewise whereby dependants overseas may obtain maintenance from someone in this country. With the increasingly free movement of people in the world, whether seeking work or a new home, the problem of ensuring the support of any dependants left behind is one which Parliament cannot ignore. The State can relieve the hardship of those who are destitute and who are without other means of support. But that is no reason why a husband or parent, by leaving the country should be able to shrug off his responsibilities whether to his family or any illegitimate child he may have left behind. This Bill seeks at the same time to relieve the financial hardship which can be suffered by abandoned families and to enforce the financial obligations and responsibilities of family life. As such. I hope it will be uncontroversial and hope that it will receive a general welcome.
The machinery embodied, at least by Part I of the Bill, is by no means entirely new, though the existing legislative provisions, so far as we suggest they should be preserved, are repeated in the text. The Maintenance Orders (Facilities for Enforcement) Act, 1920 has been used for the last fifty years for the purpose of

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enforcing maintenance orders throughout the Commonwealth. It has worked reasonably well, as is shown by the fact that between four and five hundred orders a year pass in and out of England, Wales and Northern Ireland for enforcement. But, it only covers part of the field. To begin with it does not apply to Scotland. Secondly, it does not provide for the enforcement overseas of affiliation orders. Thirdly, it cannot be extended to countries outside the Commonwealth. These limitations seriously reduce the overall scope of the present Act, because they mean that many dependants in the United Kingdom are completely without remedy if the person who supports them leaves this country. Wives and families in Scotland, mothers of illegitimate children throughout the country, and wives and families where the husband or father has gone to a country outside the Commonwealth, are liable to be thrown back upon their own resources or upon those of the State when the person who should maintain them goes overseas. This must also apply in reverse when dependants are left overseas by men who come to live or work here, and, for this reason we have, for some years now, been under pressure to modernise the 1920 Act, not only from our partners in the Commonwealth but also, and increasingly, from our neighbours in the Republic of Ire-land and the continental countries.
The purpose of the Bill is to remedy all the limitations of the 1920 Act which I have set forth. It will enable us to meet our obligations on a basis of reciprocity both within the Commonwealth and on a broader front. I should like to deal with each of the facets which I have outlined, and I am afraid that I have to explain why they are so complicated. First, Scotland. As I have said, the existing Act does not apply to Scotland. The result is that a woman in Scotland whose husband deserts her and goes abroad has no means either of enforcing a decree she may have obtained from the sheriff court before his departure, or instituting proceedings against him in Scotland once he has gone. Conversely, there is no reciprocal procedure by which a maintenance order granted in a Commonwealth court can be enforced in Scotland.
The exclusion of Scotland from the scope of the 1920 Act has been a matter
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of controversy. It was commented upon when it was passing through Parliament; and the Royal Commission on Marriage and Divorce recommended in 1956 that provision should be made to facilitate the reciprocal enforcement of maintenance orders between Scotland and other Commonwealth countries. A similar recommendation was made by the Law Reform Committee for Scotland in 1958. Why has it not been done before? The answer is that the stumbling block has always been the absence in Scotland of any machinery corresponding to the collecting officer system in the magistrates' courts in England and Wales. for enforcing orders, whether for maintenance or for the recovery of other forms of debt, which have been granted by the courts. Under Scots law, the responsibility for enforcing a court order rests with the person who has possession of it. The adequacy of the present arrangements in Scotland for enforcing court orders is at present under review by the Scottish Law Commission; but the Government thought it right in the meanwhile to bring Scotland within the system outlined in this Bill. The defect in the Scottish machinery is one of the reasons why in relation to the many Scottish provisions the Bill may seem rather more complicated than it otherwise would be.
The Bill will for the first time give the sheriff courts in Scotland jurisdiction in maintenance proceedings against persons domiciled and ordinarily resident outside the United Kingdom. This will allow a woman in Scotland to raise an action in the sheriff court against a person residing in a reciprocating country. If a provisional maintenance order is granted by the sheriff, it will be sent to the appropriate court in the reciprocating country for confirmation and enforcement. Similarly, a woman living in a reciprocating country who has obtained an order in that country against someone living in Scotland will be able to have that order registered in the appropriate sheriff court. The order may then be enforced as if it had been made by that court in the first place. The responsibility for enforcing it will, in the case of Scotland, still rest with the woman concerned but, if she requires the services of a solicitor for this purpose, she will of course be eligible for legal aid. The woman residing in a reciprocating country will thus be placed in exactly

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the same position as a Scotswoman living within the jurisdiction of the Scottish courts. The extension of these facilities for Scotland will afford a measure of protection to women in Scotland which has been sadly lacking for many years; and I am sure the House will welcome the fact that these facilities are now at last to be provided on a United Kingdom basis.
I come now to the enforcement of affiliation orders which of course relate to payments in respect of illegitimate children. These were expressly excluded from the operation of the 1920 Act, because it was then considered that the determination of paternity was a matter of such difficulty and had such serious consequences that it could only be done by a court before which both the mother and the putative father appeared. In these cases, where they are countries apart, this could not happen. But, even if we accept this—which the Bill does not do—it is not a reason for excluding affiliation orders which have been made before the putative father left this country —that is, absolute orders made when the father has had the opportunity to appear before the court which makes the order.
Some Commonwealth countries have already amended their legislation to make absolute affiliation orders enforceable and in this Bill we propose to follow their example. We are, however, proposing to go farther still and to enable courts to make provisional affiliation orders—that is, orders made in this country upon the basis of the mother's evidence which will have no effect until they have been confirmed by a court overseas which has had the opportunity to hear the alleged father's evidence.
I do not underestimate the difficulty of determining paternity when the issue is disputed; and ideally of course one will agree that this is best determined by a single court hearing both sides. However, experience shows that in a high proportion of cases either the putative father admits his paternity, in which case of course there is no issue, or the mother's evidence points overwhelmingly to his paternity. Furthermore, where paternity is genuinely disputed, the issues do not really seem more difficult to determine than some which arise in matrimonial cases (for instance, where there has been
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a disputed allegation of adultery), and these have been successfully dealt with by the courts under the existing Act for something like fifty years. In the end it is a matter for the court to weigh the issue upon the evidence and the court has full powers under the Bill to call for further evidence from overseas. Arguments that injustice may be done to innocent men do not on the whole seem very convincing, since the confirming court will have the man before it and it is likely to place greater weight upon the evidence of the witness that it hears. It may be rather that orders will not be made which might have been made if both parties had been before the same court. But at least the mothers of illegitimate children will now he given the chance to prove their case. if the possibility of making affiliation orders under the provisional procedure is excluded, all mothers who were unable to get an order before the putative father left the country would be deprived of any remedy. We think it would be wrong to deprive them in this way.
I must add that the extension of this Bill to affiliation orders, whether provisional or absolute, made in the United Kingdom will require the agreement of reciprocating countries and the making of arrangements for the reciprocal enforcement of their affiliation orders. At present the laws of only a few Commonwealth countries allow for the enforcement of provisional affiliation orders, but we hope that more countries will follow this initiative, and then they will have the opportunity to do so under the provisions of this Bill.
I now come to foreign countries, which again present rather different and peculiar complications. Part II of the Bill deals with reciprocal enforcement of maintenance obligations with countries outside the Commonwealth. The 1920 Act, the existing Act, could be applied only to Commonwealth countries. It was passed as a result of discussions at the Imperial Conference of 1911, and the need for a Commonwealth Act remains as strong now as it was then. But many people also move between the United Kingdom and Europe or between the United Kingdom and the United States and there is consequently also a need for machinery for reciprocal enforcement of orders with

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these countries. We may expect the movement between this country and foreign lands to increase rather than diminish.
Part I of the Bill will allow countries outside the Commonwealth as well as Commonwealth countries to be designated. But this is not enough. Part I, which follows the Act of 1920, which I have tried to explain, is based on the assumption that reciprocating countries have broadly similar maintenance law and the same kind of reciprocal enforcement. That is because under Part I a court in one country has to be able to confirm a maintenance order made provisionally by a court in another, and therefore has to have a procedural law which will enable it to do so, and it must be able to understand and apply the law of the overseas court. But I need hardly say that such a situation does not apply to a great many foreign countries. The problem therefore is, as regards these, to devise machinery for reciprocal enforcement which will not involve courts in interpreting a foreign law which is totally unfamiliar to them. At the same time, it is desirable to avoid having to negotiate detailed agreements on a bilateral basis with every country with whom we might think it desirable to make arrangements for reciprocal enforcement.
Therefore, we have had to choose a different machinery in the case of those foreign countries from that which the 1920 Act provides, and the machinery which we have chosen is the 1956 United Nations' Convention on the Recovery Abroad of Maintenance. This is designed to facilitate the transmission and settlement of maintenance claims between the countries which are parties to the Convention. It operates on the principle that the law of the country in which the respondent happens to be—that is to say, the law of the enforcing country—shall apply. Where under the United Nations' Convention an applicant makes a claim in one country against a respondent in another, the courts in the claimant's country do not have to adjudicate upon the claim. Instead, the claim is sent to the respondent's country through official channels and is dealt with in accordance with the law of the respon
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dent's country. A maintenance order may be made or the maintenance recovered through administrative channels according to the procedure in that country. The countries have only to apply the law of their own country. Nearly forty countries are parties to the United Nations' Convention, and the Bill will enable the United Kingdom in due course to become a party to the United Nations' Convention. It is relevant for me to point out in this connection that all the major European countries are parties to the United Nations' Convention. Now alas ! there is still a third complication and a third possibility—
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord continues, can he say, with particular reference to Ireland, whether Part II or Part I of the Bill will apply, bearing in mind that probably the largest number of putative fathers against whom orders will be made, of any foreign country in Great Britain, come from the Republic?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I think, without notice, Part I, because Irish law is almost wholly compatible with our own and their system of enforcement I think is broadly similar. If I turn out to be wrong about that I will write to the noble Lord.
That brings me to Clause 40 and Part III, which deals, alas ! with a still further complication. There are countries, and there are parts of countries, where there is a federal Constitution, and these countries may be, and in some cases are, unable or unwilling either to take part in what I may call the 1920 procedure, Part I, or to adhere to the United Nations' Convention, and may nevertheless be able to participate in bilateral arrangements. One obvious example is the United States, who have not adhered to the Convention, partly because the enforcement of maintenance is a State responsibility and not a Federal responsibility, and neither an American State nor the Federal Government of the United States could become a party to the Convention on this matter. It would clearly be most desirable if the United Kingdom could produce a legislative framework which will enable maintenance to be recovered from people who have gone to the United States; otherwise to

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some extent the Bill will be deprived of its full value. There were informal discussions during the meeting of the American Bar Association in London this summer, and these suggested that it might be possible to make arrangements —I use the word "arrangements", which is not a technical word—with individual States for the reciprocal enforcement of maintenance on the basis of the provisions of the Bill. But those will need to be slightly modified in matters of detail to produce an effective machinery. There may be other countries besides the United States in which special bilateral arrangements would be necessary or desirable. The powers for this are in Clause 40 of the Bill. Any adaptations or modifications to the general principles which would be made under such bilateral arrangements would be in matters of detail—for example, in relation to different terminology or channels of communication between countries. Accordingly, the provision for recovering maintenance from a person in a country with which an agreement under Clause 40 has been made would not necessarily be significantly different from the procedure in Part I or Part II.
Now, my Lords, I ought if I were a thoroughly conscientious Minister to go through the Parts and set out in some length the very complicated procedures for the three Parts. But I hope the House will bear with me if I just summarise what I have said, so as to get it clear in people's minds. The purpose of the Bill is to get rid of the defects in the 1920 Act—the limitations upon the 1920 Act; in other words, to apply the provisions to Scotland; to apply the provisions to affiliation orders, and also to apply the provisions to countries which the Act of 1920 cannot be made to apply to at the moment. It is the latter part which leads to the greater part of the complication, and what we have done is, by Part I, to extend the 1920 Act to countries where it can apply; by Part II, where effectively it cannot, to utilise the machinery of the United Nations' Convention—and Part II will enable us to become a party—and to utilise the quite different provisions available under that. Part III enables bilateral arrangements to be arrived at, either because they are thought more advantageous in a particular case or because Part I and Part II do not
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apply. My Lords, I am afraid that I have taken up a great deal of the time of the House but it is really an absurdly complicated matter and I do not think I could have done it more shortly. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill he now read 2ª. —(The Lord Chancellor.)
6.1 p.m.
LORD DIAMOND: My Lords, I do not know why the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, felt in an unusually modest frame of mind when introducing this Bill. If I may put it in one sentence, he has made me understand it, and therefore everyone else will have understood it even more easily. I am certainly no lawyer, as everybody knows, and I found his explanation easy to follow and completely adequate. It is of considerable pleasure to me to be able to take part in discussion of a Bill where I can be in such harmony and agreement with the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor. Alas!, it is not always my good fortune to be in that happy state. It is also a pleasure for me to be able to welcome, certainly so far as this side of the House is concerned, a Bill which, to use a time-worn phrase, is, if anything, overdue. It is a matter which has been under consideration obviously since 1920 and in respect of part of which there has been a United Nations Convention which I see was agreed to in New York between June and December of 1956. One knows from the speeches that have been made from time to time during the course of the debates on the Queen's Speech that this is a Bill which has been in the minds of Governments for a considerable period, and I dare say we should have had this kind of Bill, whichever Government had been in power. Therefore I welcome it so far as this side of the House is concerned. The noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, is, certainly right in saying that there is a good deal of "meat" in the Bill and a good deal of evidence of a determination to overcome obvious difficulties of the judicial systems of different countries in trying to put right a major grievance, and to that extent we congratulate the noble and learned Lord and the present Government and all those who have taken part in drafting the Bill.
There has obviously been a considerable body of misery, for aught I know

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real misery, suffered by a large number of people because of the difficulty of following through court orders from one country to another, and the fact that a Bill of some 40-odd clauses has bean needed to overcome it indicates the kind of problems to which those responsible for this matter have turned their minds, and I think we ought to be duly grateful for it. It is an indication that we are all realising that the world is getting smaller every day and that we have to accommodate ourselves to that situation. This Bill is a good example of the way in which that has been done. In general terms, my Lords, we can offer a welcome to a Bill which would obviously improve the lot of many people and which, on the face of it, so far as we on this side of the House are concerned, does not contain any major provision which is in any way controversial. The noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, will be happy to learn that.
There are, however, one or two points which I did not completely follow on quickly reading the Bill and on listening to the noble and learned Lord's speech. One matter is that of dealing with arrears. To take a preliminary point in regard to it, I imagine that there must be some limitation to the arrears which can be collected. In a case where arrears have accumulated over a long period of years and it has not been possible to collect them for reasons that have been explained to us, and those arrears become payable and as a result of this Bill arc capable of being collected, I imagine that there will be some kind of discretion resting with somebody or other so that they will be dealt with understandingly. I am not saying more than that. Obviously the arrears should not have accumulated, but, their having accumulated over a very long period, there is presumably some method of dealing with them.
I am more concerned with the other aspect of that matter as evidenced in Clause 20, which deals with the Scottish position. We are grateful for the explanation of the unusual circumstances in Scotland and the difficulties which stem from not having the same kind of collection machinery, but if one looks closely at Clause 20 one reads that:
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"on any application for leave to enforce the payment of any such arrears, the sheriff may refuse leave … as he thinks appropriate or may remit the payment of such arrears or of any part thereof."
In short, the sheriff will apparently have power to say that no arrears need be paid or that part of the arrears only shall be paid, or that they shall be payable only subject to certain conditions and restrictions. That seems to be a very wide discretion. There is nothing in this particular clause which indicates the way in which the sheriff would reach his conclusion to exercise his discretion, and I am wondering whether his determination is a final determination, or whether there is any form of appeal from a sheriff's decision in that respect.
It may be that in order to have a kind of uniformity of treatment between Scotland and other parts of the United Kingdom, and Scotland and other parts of the Commonwealth, there ought to be some method of appeal from a sheriff's exercise of his discretion as described in that clause, although doubtless there is a perfectly satisfactory explanation which anybody other than a layman would already have understood. In this respect I should say that the only reason that your Lordships are being troubled with a speech by a layman of my own vast and indescribable ignorance on this topic is that my noble friend Lord Stow Hill is unfortunately indisposed and unable to assist your Lordships to-day. He had been very closely concerned with this subject and had set up one of the relevant committees.
Another point on which I should like to have a little assurance, rather than assistance, is the effect which this Bill will have when it becomes an Act on those who are still dependent during the course of proceedings under the Act. What I have in mind is the case of a woman who has been denied maintenance because her husband, the person who should be paying the maintenance, has departed elsewhere and there has been no possibility of collecting from him. She has been entitled to maintenance, has not had it and has therefore, we assume, been driven to applying for and receiving supplementary benefit. That will happen in a number of cases, as all of us who have been Members of Parliament and have had constituents to deal with know very well

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indeed. The payment of the supplementary benefit is a payment by the State, and the body which is going to benefit to that extent by being relieved of its responsibility is the State. That is all perfectly right and understandable, but I am anxious to be assured that during the period when the applicant is hopeful, because of proceedings under this Act, of getting payment, and probably a higher level of payment, from the person who should have made the payment the whole way through—let us say, the ex-husband —she will not be in any sense disadvantaged by what is a pure state of hope as opposed to a state of receipt of benefit, even though at the low level of assistance. I hope I have made the point clear.
It seems to me that during the course of giving effect to the provisions of this Bill it may well be that conscientious individuals will take the view that they ought at the earliest possible moment to stop the supplementary benefits which are being paid. That is a very proper point of view. One is anxious, however, that those payments should not stop prematurely at a point of time when the dependant, while harbouring the hope of getting benefit under this Bill, has nevertheless not yet received it. There will obviously be questions of accounting as between the person who has paid the arrears and the dependant who has received benefit under National Assistance, but I do not think we want at this stage of the Bill to go into those more detailed questions, although we may want to come back to them at a later stage. So, in short, we on this side must welcome the Bill and. give it an all the more warm welcome by virtue of the fact that it has been a long time geting here. We must nevertheless recognise that many difficulties have had to be overcome to make it possible for this load of misery to be reduced, if not extinguished. We hope the Bill will prove effective in practice when it reaches the Statute Book, as I hope it will at not too distant a time.
6.12 p.m.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, your Lordships may well feel, in view of the very clear way in which the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has explained this rather complicated Bill, and the fact that it has been welcomed by my noble friend Lord Diamond, nothing
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more need be said. But I would ask the indulgence of the House for a few minutes to add a few remarks. I do so for three reasons, and I can assure the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor that I am not going to raise matters of detail. First, it seems perhaps an appropriate occasion on which to make what is practically my first speech as a Back-Bencher, having resigned from the Front Bench, not because of any disagreement with my colleagues but simply because I wanted to be free. So for the first time for nearly seven years, I can say what I think—because even when one is in Opposition one naturally has to exercise care in a field for which one of one's colleagues in the other place is a shadow Minister. I must say that I now have a glorious feeling of irresponsibility coming over me, and I hope perhaps to introduce my own Bills and generally have some fun. This Bill, however, is not a question of fun, and this is my second reason for speaking. I was myself indirectly concerned with this Bill.
The fact is that within a few years of the passing of the 1920 Act everybody recognised that it had three defects, the ones which the noble and learned Lord has mentioned: it did not apply to Scotland; we could make reciprocal agreements with Commonwealth countries but not with foreign countries, and it did not apply to affiliation orders. The Commonwealth point became more serious when Eire left the Commonwealth, because that meant that, however many Irishmen deserted their wives here, the wives could get no maintenance. So well was this defect recognised that not long after the Act was passed, I think I am right in saying a Bill—probably a simpler one than this—was ready for introduction in 1931 and got squeezed out of the Parliamentary timetable only at the very last moment. Forty years have now gone by, forty years during which a shocking injustice has been done to deserted wives, whose husbands have left this country and gone elsewhere, so that it was impossible for the wives to get paid any maintenance at all; and in any case, of course, the woman who got an affiliation order was in the same position.
How does it come about that where the law needs changing, and injustice is being done to a not inconsiderable section of the community, forty years can go by without the injustice being put right? I

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think the reason is that this may continue until the Lord Chancellor of the day is given an overall responsibility for our law. Without attaching blame to anybody in particular, what has obviously happened is that each Home Secretary, being able to obtain Parliamentary time for only a limited number of Bills, has always had Bills which he has thought more important or which would reflect greater political credit upon him. There is a very great contrast to-day—and I say to-day advisedly, because yesterday the sixth Annual Report of the Law Commission was published.
Some of your Lordships may remember that I did not have at all an easy ride over the Law Commission Bill. It was not voted against on a Party basis, because it had been in the Election programme, and to vote against it would not have been in accordance with our custom. But I was told that no Law Commission was necessary; I was accused of wanting to appoint a few long-haired Left-Wing professors who would not recognise a Bill if they saw one. I was told that it did not matter what they did, because if they did produce some good proposals for legislation I had not provided any means for enlarging the amount of Parliamentary time to be given to law reform; that the whole exercise was a great mistake, because, whatever they did, no more law reform would be done than had been done in the past. So I am interested to observe from the Annual Report published yesterday that in the 1970–71 Session 18 Bills for which the Law Commission were in whole or in part responsible reached the Statute Book, apart from the massive Courts Bill, with which they had not been concerned. I would congratulate the noble and learned Lord, who wanted really massive law reform performance, on bringing into play all the stops, including—I will not say pressure, but influence, on Members of this House and the other place, of all Parties, to help him with particular Bills.
One must contrast this with the Home Office. I do not seek to blame Home Secretaries in particular. This is a Bill which we should have introduced if we had been returned to power. The Home Office as a whole have quite a good record. The record of the Department of Trade and Industry is absolutely shock
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ing. It is in almost every field of law for which that Department insist on claiming responsibility that law reform most needs to be done. They have more lawyers than the Lord Chancellor and the Law Commission combined. We ought to do something to ensure that a situation never again arises in which it is obviously necessary to remedy an injustice which is being caused to a sufficient number of people and forty years go by without its being done. The only way, in the end, in which this can be achieved is by giving the Lord Chancellor an overall responsibility for law reform. Subject to those observations, my Lords, I welcome this Bill. It has arrived at last. As many of your Lordships know, I have been pressing for it for some time. I am very glad to see that it is here, and I hope that it will very soon reach the Statute Book.
6.20 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, I did not include my name in the list of speakers in the first place because I was so overjoyed to see this Bill and to realise that, at long last, these principles were being embodied in a measure, and I felt that anything I might say would prove superfluous. On further reflection, and having listened to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, I realise that the chief beneficiaries are going to be women and children, and therefore all I need to do to-night is to thank him for promoting this measure which, although it is overdue, when at long last it comes gives those of us who are interested in this subject great satisfaction. I am quite sure that when the Bill is implemented it will relieve considerable misery which, in the past, has been endured by those in our community who are least capable of bearing it.
6.21 p.m.
LORD JANNER: My Lords, I hope your Lordships will excuse me for intervening at this stage. We have had, with all respect, an extremely careful and comprehensive explanation of the Bill itself and of its legal terminology and implications. I want to say that I entirely agree with the Bill, and underline what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, has said.
Those of us who have had some experience in the solicitors' branch of the profession know what terrible anguish has been caused by the inability of those who

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are now going to benefit by the Bill to obtain the necessary funds to enable them to live, although orders have been made by which they are entitled to receive those funds. I do not know whether your Lordships can appreciate how deep is the feeling about this matter. It can only be done, I think, in the office of a solicitor where a wife or person concerned opens her heart about the circumstances in which she is placed. It has been my experience, and I believe that of most of my colleagues, when confronted with these cases, to feel how terrible is the situation, that although an order has been made it cannot be enforced.
The whole tragedy of the situation becomes even more serious when one realises that this has been going on for so many years. I am not saying anything that is not known to the community at large. Everybody knew that these hardship cases existed; everybody felt that there was a possibility of the situation being put right. But for some unknown reason—as was implied and expressed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, to be the position in some other cases—we did not move quickly enough. The tragedy of a situation is not always sufficiently appreciated for action to be taken. Action could have been taken here. Since the 1920 Act we knew what the deficiencies were, we knew what the trouble was, and we knew that there was a possibility of putting that right, because other countries had to some extent, if not entirely, put it right. Yet here we sat watching a situation in which people had to receive supplementary benefits and so on, and were placed in a position in which they should never have been placed, because the offending party was not complying with the orders but was getting away with "murder", if I may so put it. In addition, in most instances the man was capable of making the payment to the wife or the person concerned, because the court itself had come to the conclusion that he was in a position to do it. This is the serious part of the matter. It is not as though an order was made which could not be complied with. The court takes into consideration the circumstances of the individual concerned, and makes an order accordingly. By introducing this Bill the Government have now taken a step which will provide remedies for this position.
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May I point out that in the Bill there is reference to a Convention. How serious becomes the position when these Conventions are made but we do not ratify them for so many years. The Convention was made in 1956. This is not the only case in which a Convention has been ignored for a long period. The Convention of 1956 dealt with certain aspects of the position; we are now accepting the terms of that Convention, and at long last we are going to ratify it. As I have said, it is not the only such Convention. There is the Convention on Human Rights.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL:Equal pay.
LORD JANNER: My Lords, there arc probably dozens in regard to which we should have moved and we have not moved; yet eventually we come to the conclusion that something has to be done about them, and we ratify them years after the time when we should have ratified them. I think that there should be some procedural method devised whereby we deal with similar situations to the one we are faced with to-day, without having to wait any length of time. I have had the experience of introducing quite a number of Private Member's Bills in the other place; but the trouble and the obstacles that are put in one's way before one can get through something which is obviously necessary could, I was going to say, break one's heart. It has not broken my heart, but I think that many people in Parliament refrain from attempting to introduce Private Member's Bills merely because obstacles are put in the way, and also the excuse, "There is not time". What time is needed for a Bill of this description, for example, to be accepted? I do not think for one moment that if everybody consents to its terms—of course there may be a few technical points to be dealt with from a legal standpoint—it should take more than a few hours to get a Bill of this sort through both Houses. I cannot see why there should be any delay.
Your Lordships will appreciate that this indicates that a procedure might be found whereby Back Benchers might, with the consent of the Government, have opportunities of bringing in more measures than at present. If the Government have not got time, there is no reason

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why the Government should not turn to some of the Back Benchers of either House who are interested in a particular subject and, knowing that there is not likely to be any contention at all about the matter itself, induce or persuade them to introduce legislation of this description.
I conclude by saying that we are all very grateful to the Government for having at long last introduced the Bill. I do not blame them for the delay; all Governments have been very lax from the time of the 1920 Act, and indeed before. May I say again, without appearing to be in any way impertinent to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, that I cannot imagine that anyone could have presented this Bill—those of us who are lawyers naturally have a little advantage in this respect—in a clearer and better form than he did, and we are very grateful to him.
6.30 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I should like to begin by thanking those noble Lords who have taken part in this debate for the welcome which they have given to the Bill, and for the observations which they have made about it. If I may take the speeches in the order in which they were delivered, the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, asked me three questions which I shall now handle as best I can. The first question related to arrears. Curiously enough, the second question, which related to the discretion of the sheriff and the sheriff court, bears, so I am informed—and the House will keep in mind that I am not an expert on Scottish law—a close relationship to the first, although not one which is apparent on the face of it.
First of all, may I explain that in England, Wales and Northern Ireland the general law is that a magistrates' court has discretion to remit a part or the whole of the arrears that are outstanding. That is part of our domestic law. It is not part of this Bill. This discretion is exercised by the court having regard to the defaulter's ability to pay, and from that discretion as part of the domestic law—to answer the second part of the question of the noble Lord, Lord Diamond—no appeal lies. This same provision—the whole of it, both the discre
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tion and the absence of appeal—applies automatically under the Bill, because what we are in fact doing under Part I of the Bill is to apply our domestic law to registered orders. It could, of course, be argued that there ought to be an appeal in these cases, although there are arguments the other way; for example, I should have thought that it would lead to a great deal of delay. But it certainly would not be right to introduce an appeal for the registered order which did not apply to the whole of our domestic law.
That brings me to the provisions of Clause 20 to which the noble Lord drew my attention. Whereas in England, Wales and Northern Ireland the magistrates' court has power to remit arrears, in Scotland the sheriff does not have this power. It therefore becomes necessary under Clause 20 to adapt the new law to Scotland. The sheriff has power to revoke an order. He also has to give leave to enforce the arrears which he does not have power to remit. Where he provisionally revokes a registered order under Clause 9(3) of the Bill, the payer would have to have shown at least a prima facie case for revocation. As your Lordships realise, where a revocation is sought, the procedure under the Bill is that you get a prima facie case for registration in the place where the payer resides, and not where the payee resides, but of course it cannot be complete until the payee has had her say.
Therefore, the revocation order in the enforcing court can only be provisional and has to be confirmed by the payee's court before the revocation is complete. That means that a considerable time may elapse between the provisional order and the complete order, and hardship can be suffered by the payer. It follows that arrears that have accrued in these circumstances can be enforced under Clause 20 only by leave of the sheriff. Equally, when an order has been made before the commencement of this Act (as it will be), considerable arrears may have developed because there was no means of enforcement. So hardship could be caused if arrears were enforced right away. Therefore, again, the sheriff's discretion is necessary in Scotland, although the law of England, Wales and Northern Ireland does not make it quite so necessary, because the general law is different.

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One other question which the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, asked was about the position of dependants. Dependants who have been on supplementary benefits will not be disentitled to supplementary benefits while proceedings are pending under the Bill. If the dependant is entitled to benefit in her own right, she will continue to be entitled to benefit while these proceedings are pending. It will of course be for her to claim entitlement under the general law, and no doubt she will be guided—and I hope that she will—by her local supplementary benefit office in claiming it. The claim against the husband may be for a good deal more than the supplementary benefit; he may be very well off. Therefore the issues are separate. But the short answer to the question which the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, posed, is that the entitlement to supplementary benefit remains until the money is in the payee's pocket.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, told us, all engagingly, that he can now, for the first time for many years, say what he thinks. That is going to be very exciting. He told us that he is going to be free to propose a great number of Bills of his own. That also will be very exciting. I can tell him that if he is short of any Titles, it is quite possible that my Office may give him some law reform Bills which he may like to undertake, because we are always on the look-out for likely sponsors of Bills who can possibly explain what they are about. and he will be very high on my list. I must warn him that if he reads Campbell's Lives of the Lord Chancellors, he will see that when Lord Brougham ceased to be Lord Chancellor some time ago he produced, I think 362 Bills in a single Session, all of them for law reform. I hope that he does not show quite so much zeal as his predecessor on the Woolsack. I do not think I am so free as he was to express my opinion about the potential responsibility of the Lord Chancellor for law reform. I have on a previous occasion told him of some of the difficulties that I see.
I think it is fair to the Home Office to point out, both to the noble and learned Lord and to the noble Lord, Lord Janner, that. so far as concerns Part II of the Bill, the Convention which we have made use of in this Bill—and this is partly an
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answer to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner—was not available to the Home Office in 1931. It came into operation as available machinery only in 1956. Although there may be a good deal in the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Janner, that that, too, was 15 years ago, I would point out to him in mitigation that it is not simply a question of ratifying a Convention by one of those nice, short little Bills which schedule a Convention and have one clause in them. As your Lordships will see from Part II of the Bill, it has taken 15 clauses of legislation to put us in a position to adhere to the Convention.
LORD JANNER: My Lords, will the noble and learned Lord excuse my interrupting? If we can do it now, why on earth could we not do it 15 years ago?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, there is a great deal of truth in that. At the same time, it is a more complicated operation than some Convention ratification exercises involve. I can say to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, that I think he got rather churlish treatment over his Law Commission Bill. I can say this without any sense of shame, because I took it upon myself in the other place, when I was still a Member there, to get up from the Back Benches, rather exceptionally, and say that I thought it had been rather ungenerously received. I quite accept from him that the Law Commission has proved its usefulness in a variety of different ways. Certainly in the short time during which I have been on the Woolsack 1 have used it as much as I could for a variety of different purposes, and I hope that when Mr. Justice Scarman, its Chairman, is ultimately free from his Northern Irish responsibilities it will be even more useful in the coming months than it has been in the past. But that is another question.
With that, I think I have dealt with the points raised in debate, but I have this in general to say about law reform. I think we have developed our techniques in Parliament a little better than our predecessors did. If I may say so without committing a breach of privilege. I think the Second Reading Committee in the House of Commons has made a great difference to Lord Chancellors and to those who are keen on law reform, as

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well as the Law Commission. One of the by-products of the Law Commission has been that Private Members have ready-made Bills which they can present. It is not just a question of sitting down and trying to be your own Parliamentary draftsman any longer. If you are interested in law reform, there are usually one or two Bills which are ready-made for you by the Law Commission, and that is a great assistance. Further, more people are beginning to realise the use which can be made of this House in law reform. A Bill which is introduced in this House, either by the Government or by a Back-Bencher, and which is processed through our Committee and given a Third Reading here, has a much better chance of survival in the House of Commons than a Bill produced rather late in the ballot in the House of Commons, which has to depend upon Government good will even to get airborne at all, and which you probably cannot get a Parliamentary draftsman to process at all. So I think we are learning the techniques of law reform.
We are going very shortly to debate the Report of the Procedure Committee. I personally have a certain amount of interest in that because there is a proposal in that Report which relates to Joint Committees of the two Houses. When the burden of law reform becomes heavier than it is now—and I think it will become heavier than it is now for a reason which I shall give in a moment—we shall have to look at fresh Parliamentary devices to secure time for it. The reason why I say that the burden of law reform will become heavier than it is now is this. The Law Commission's programme, if one has watched the sequence of Reports which they have delivered, was always an ambitious one, and it will culminate in producing really long codifications of our law. This will involve on the part of those who are interested in law reform a re-thinking of some of our Parliamentary methods of dealing with long and complicated Bills. I doubt whether in the future Governments will be able to find time for long Bills of that kind—say, producing a whole penal code, or something like that—unless we adopt new devices and new thinking about procedure. However, Mat is in the future. In the meantime, I
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thank the House for the reception which it has given to this Bill, and if I may now revert to my central position. I will put the Question.
On Question, Bill read 2ª, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

TEXTILE COUNCIL (DISSOLUTION) ORDER 1971
6.44 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN rose to move, That the Draft Textile Council (Disssolution) Order 1971, laid before the House on November 16 last, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move that the Draft Textile Council (Dissolution) Order 1971, laid before the House on November 16 last, be approved. I suggest that, with the leave of the House, at the same time as we deal with this Order we should discuss the next one, the Textile Council Committee (Discharge) Order 1971. Both these Orders will come into operation on January 1, 1972, if approved by your Lordships and by another place.
The purpose of the first Order is to dissolve the Textile Council. In 1967 the name of the Cotton Board was changed to that of the Textile Council. The Cotton Board, as the noble Lord, Lord Brown, will remember very well, which operated during the war, was re-constructed as a development council under the provisions of the Industrial Organisation and Development Act 1947. The change of name in 1967 marked the enlargement of the scope of the Cotton Board to cover man-made fibre production and other materials outside those of the traditional Lancashire cotton industry. The Government are required under the 1947 Act to review development councils at five-yearly intervals in consultation with industry, to see whether they should continue and, if so, whether changes should be made in their constitutions. The Government have made a review of the Textile Council over the past 17 months. Out of the review has emerged a consensus that the Council is no longer suited either to the present needs of the industry or to those likely to develop in the future. The industry as a whole thought that those needs could best be met by a new non-statutory, voluntary,

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policy-making body representing a wider range of textile interests. The Textile Council itself recommended its own dissolution provided that adequate arrangements were made to maintain those of its activities which it was in the industry's interest to continue. Accordingly, last February the Minister announced his decision that the Council should be wound up.
My Lords, the activities of the Council which are to be continued are these. First of all, a new non-profit-making company is to be formed to carry on the Council's Productivity Centre, and is to take over the buildings and equipment, plus a grant from the Council's surplus funds towards the provision of working capital. The centre should become self-supporting quite quickly. A large part of its income is at present derived from its own earnings. Secondly, the Council's statistical services will be carried on by the British Textile Employers' Association, aided also by an initial grant from the Council's surplus in the first place. Thirdly, small initial grants will be made from the same source to launch the new representative bodies, the British Textiles Confederation and the Cotton and Allied Trades Joint Committee, which will take over many of the policy-making and representational functions of the Council. Fourthly, the Shirley Institute will receive the full year's grant which it has been receiving through the levy to help it on its way, although the Council is not imposing any levy for the last six months of its life; that is to say, the Council is at present collecting the levy which was due in September. The Institute will also get a further payment of £50,000 out of the Council's surplus, subject to the availability of funds. Thereafter, the Institute will have to rely for revenue on charges made for its services together with voluntary subscriptions and the Government grant payable on these.
The Draft Order, my Lords, is quite straightforward. Article 2 provides for the dissolution of the Council on March 31, 1972, or such later date as the Secretary of State may direct, and for the vesting of property, rights and liabilities of the Council in the Secretary of State on that date. Article 3 provides that the last accounting year of the Council will end on February 29, 1972, so as to allow the Council a month to prepare
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its report and accounts for the year. Article 4 provides that the Council's activities, other than those necessary to wind up its accounts, will terminate on February 29, 1972. Transactions during March will be taken into final dissolution accounts prepared by the Department of Trade and Industry. Article 5 gives the Council power, with the approval of the Secretary of State, to impose a last levy on persons carrying on business in the industry consisting of activities specified in Schedule 1 to the Cotton Industry Development Council Order. This is to cover any liabilities which cannot be covered by its remaining balances.
My Lords, the Special Orders Committee has drawn attention to the power conferred on the Council in this Article of the Order to impose a charge for this purpose. The power is exercisable only if the assets of the Council are insufficient to meet their liabilities and the expenses of winding up, and only with the approval of the Secretary of State. Your Lordships will recognise that vires are ultimately a matter for the courts, but the Committee expressed doubts whether Article 5 is intra vires because no maximum is specified to the amount of the levy so to be made. The Committee refers to Section 4(2) of the Act of 1947 which requires that
"An order providing for such charges shall contain provision for limiting the amount of the charges that may be imposed, either by providing for their being computed so as not to yield more than a specified maximum amount during a specified period or by providing for their not being levied at more than specified maximum rates."
The Government are grateful to the Committee for having brought attention to the point, but the advice which the Government have received is that on a proper construction of the Act the doubt is not well founded. Perhaps noble Lords will allow me to explain why.
The Draft Order before your Lordships is made under Section 8(1) of the Act which allows the Secretary of State or Minister concerned to make an order for the dissolution of a Development Council, after consulting it and subject to the approval of both Houses. And Section 8(4) requires, inter alia, that the order shall make provision
"for the imposition and recovery of charges as under Section 4 for the purpose of raising any amount by which the assets of the Council

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may be insufficient to meet their liabilities and the expenses of winding up".
These are the very words used in Article 5 of the Order before your Lordships. It would seem that the Order would not comply with the Act unless such provision were made.
At first sight your Lordships' Committee has discovered what I may call a most ingenious paradox. Parliament has provided for the dissolution and winding up of a Development Council, but has made it impossible for it to be dissolved and wound up because it has attached an impossible condition; namely, that the dissolution order should prescribe a maximum amount to he raised by a winding-up levy before it is known what amount is required. However, Parliament, according to the advice I have received, did not err in 1947. I am advised that the words "as under" do not have the effect of requiring that the order should prescribe a maximum amount. They merely mean that there should be a power to raise a levy in the same way as under Section 4; that is, in the words of Section 4(1),
"in such manner and through such channels, if any, as may be specified in the Order".
It may reassure your Lordships to know two things. First, that this is not the first dissolution order to be made under the Act; two earlier ones, which provided for a final levy in the same terms, were not challenged either in Parliament or in the courts; and, second, that there is in any case little likelihood of there being any need for such a levy, as the assets of the Textile Council are likely to exceed their liabilities on winding-up by a very considerable sum, as I have indicated. Nevertheless, I should again like to thank the Committee very sincerely for its vigilance and for the care with which it has examined the order.
My Lords, I turn now briefly to the second Order. The reason why the discharge of the Textile Council Committee needs a separate Order is that it was set up under a different Act of Parliament, the Cotton Industry Act 1959, introduced in another place by my noble friend Lord Eccles. The Committee, composed of the three independent members of the Cotton Board and two additional independents, was set up to prepare and administer schemes for the reorganisation
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of the industry. Noble Lords will remember that the schemes provided for the scrapping of surplus machinery and for compensating both firms who did the scrapping and also workers who lost their jobs. The compensation was financed as to two-thirds by the Government and one-third out of levies imposed by the Cotton Board. Manufacturers were given two months in which to decide whether and what to scrap and five years to complete re-equipment projects qualifying for grant. All this gave the Committee a lot of work up to the middle 1960s, but recently it has had rather less to do. It has continued in being because the trusts established to look after the funds paid in by the industry were set up for ten years. The last trust deed lapsed this year, and the Committee, having disposed of its residual surplus, has now completed its task. This Order, if approved, will give it an honourable discharge.
I should like to express on behalf of Her Majesty's Government our very warm appreciation of the services of my noble friend Lord Rochdale, who was Chairman of the Cotton Board and of the Committee at the time, and of Sir Anthony Burney, who was the prime mover in devising the administrative and financial arrangements. Our thanks arc due to all who served on the Committee. I cannot speak too highly of the service rendered by the Cotton Board and the Textile Council over nearly 25 years. Their members included employers, trade union leaders and independents. How well and truly they laid the foundations and built up the edifice is shown by the anxiety shown by the industry that much of what they began and developed should continue—especially the Productivity Centre and the Statistical Service. By no means the least of the Council's achievements, perhaps the most important at this time, was the detailed study of the productivity and efficiency of the cotton and allied sector, carried out in response to a request made by the Board of Trade in 1966—no doubt made by the noble Lord himself.
The study took two and a half years to complete, and was published in March, 1969. It represents probably the most searching analysis of the position and prospects of the industry that has ever been produced. I should like, in particular, to pay tribute to Sir Frank Rostron, Chairman of the Board when

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the study was undertaken; to Sir James Steel, the present chairman who carried it through; to Mr. T. D. F. Powell, the Director-General; and to Mrs. Caroline Miles, one of the independent members, who was responsible for much of the basic economic analysis. In inviting your Lordships to approve this Order, I hope that I am speaking for you all when I express our sincere gratitude to all the members of the Cotton Board, the Textile Council and the Committee, past and present. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Draft Textile Council (Dissolution) Order 1971, laid before the House on November 16 last, be approved.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
6.57 p.m.
LORD BROWN: My Lords, when I sat for five years on the Benches opposite it was my good fortune to be faced from these Benches by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn. I continuously find him helpful, co-operative and, if critical, courteous. It is distressing to me to find on my occasional appearances on the Front Bench of my Party that I seem always to be dealing with something on which it is necessary for me to be critical. These two Orders are no exception. This is a destructive Government; but their destruction of the sort of things that I am particularly concerned with comes in a series of small doses. If we had been faced with one Bill which sought to abolish the Prices and Incomes Board, the Industrial Reorganisation Corporation, N.E.D.C., the Consumers' Association, investment grants, industrial liaison officers, regional employment premiums and the selective employment tax there would have been a great deal of opposition in your Lordships' House. People would have realised that a tremendous attack was being made on something which had been built up, with great effort, over the preceding years. But these things come in dribs and drabs.
Here we are faced with the dissolution of the Textile Council and the disintegration of its activities, some of them, to lesser bodies at a time when I think co-ordination of these activities should be the lesson of the day. This is extremely distressing. I am not over-impressed with the argument that the consensus of opinion in the industry was in favour of this dissolution. For some fifteen years I
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was an independent member of the Furniture Development Council—probably now the only remaining Council of this kind. On two occasions, as one of a body of three representing the Council, I remember having to call upon the noble Lord, Lord Erroll of Hale (who was in the House earlier), to persuade him to take the necessary action to see that this Furniture Council continued. On those occasions, too, I believe that the consensus of opinion in the industry was against its continuance. Had it not continued we should not to-day have a furniture industry, for it benefited greatly from these activities. We have to-day, in the Furniture Industrial Research Association, quite the best research association of its kind in the world; and we have a country which is relatively free from the disgraceful furniture that used to be put on the market by manufacturers before the war.
I do not know too much about the operations of the Textile Council. I have heard some good things; I have not heard any criticisms. I took the trouble to look up the Order, and I read through it before getting on to my feet to-day. There are 18 parts to it, and if it had not been so late I should have read them all to your Lordships; for I think you would have agreed that there is not a single one of them which has not an objective that we all heartily endorse. Yet some of these are to be allocated to lesser bodies; some will be forgotten, and we well know that once these things become voluntary the keen members of the industry tend to pay while others do not pay, and the thing gradually runs down. This has happened repeatedly.
The reason for the original Act, the Industrial Organisation and Development Act 1947, was to rectify a situation which had grown up in this country and in which a zealous few struggled along to provide funds from which the lazy majority benefited. In the long run this resulted in co-operative endeavours to up-grade the standards of the industry and all the rest of it dwindling and disappearing. To-day, my Lords, we are in greater need of co-operative endeavour to make sure that our industries really get together and face the requirements of the situation; particularly because we are to enter the Common Market and we shall face much greater competition. This

971
seems to me a moment in history when to agree to the dissolution of the Textile Council is a very sad decision.
I am going to end what I have to say in criticism of this Order by quoting from a contribution made to The Times in January, 1968, by a man who knows a great deal about administration and organisation, Robert MacNamara, one-time boss of General Motors, I think, and then United States Defence Secretary, and now, I think, in charge of World Aid. In the article he said:
"Some critics to-day worry that our democratic societies are becoming over-managed. I would argue that the opposite is true. Paradoxical as it may sound, the real threat to democracy comes not from over-management but from under-management. To under-manage reality is not to keep it free, it is simply to let some force other than reason shape reality. That force may be unbridled emotion, it may be greed, it may be aggressiveness, it may be hatred, it may be ignorance, it may be inertia, it may be anything other than reason. But whatever it is, if it is not reason that rules man, then man falls short of his potential."
He goes on at a later stage to make the statement that:
"The observable fact is that most forms of social organisation are growing more complex, but complexity itself is not necessarily inferior to simplicity, and simple arrangements, by the mere fact of their simplicity are not invariably more democratic."
My Lords, I think that this is a Government drive for simplicity; a drive to save a puny amount of money. The abolition of the Textile Council will save the industry, at an absolute maximum, £625,000—indeed it will not save that amount because, presumably, they will go on paying some proportion of that for voluntary endeavours. To banish a Council, whose reputation has stood enormously high for many years—the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, was good enough to acknowledge that—in relation to an industry which needs help to a greater extent than possibly ever before, seems to me to be an act of the greatest folly. I wish it were customary that I should move to divide the House against this Order, but it is not and I shall not do so. But I hope that I have made my protest quite clear.
7.3 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Brown, has not
972
asked me to answer a case, but I would say that I quite understand his point of view when he says that he is not over-impressed with the argument that the Council was in favour of its own dissolution. But the fact is that it was, and it is taking steps to adapt its own voluntary arrangements in a way that it thinks should be done. As I said, the British Textile Confederation is to be a company limited by guarantee. The new company is in the process of being formed, and I hope that the noble Lord will reserve judgment until it has been formed and to see how it does. The Cotton and Allied Trades Joint Committee will be operating in the Lancashire sector alone, and the British Textile Confederation will, I understand, cover the whole sphere. If I remember rightly, I can recall the noble Lord, Lord Rhodes, regretting that the existing Textile Council, or rather, the Cotton Board, did not cover a wider area of the textile field. This, as I understand it, is what is going to happen now, and I hope that the noble Lord, even though he has not a right to speak again, will wish the new Confederation well, as I certainly do on this occasion.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

TEXTILE COUNCIL COMMITTEE (DISCHARGE) ORDER 1971
LORD DRUMALBYN: I beg to move the second Order in my name.
Moved, That the Draft Textile Council Committee (Discharge) Order 1971, laid before the House on November 16 last, be approved.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

WATER SERVICES REORGANISATION AND WATERWAYS BOARD
7.6 p.m.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS rose to ask Her Majesty's Government:
What advantage is to be gained from breaking up the British Waterways Board and handing its unified system to seven different water-supply authorities?
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I am asking this Question to-night because

973
I believe this to be a classic case of something which is basically a good idea, and undoubtedly the right thing to do, being spoilt by over-haste and lack of consultation. Why this should be so I cannot conceive, because there is no lack of advisers in this matter. The lack of consultation seems to have spread to the point where on the list of speakers I seem to have been marked down as having to answer myself. No doubt, provided that I asked a sensible question, I should get a sensible answer from myself. And I think that I might even get a more satisfactory answer than I shall get from noble Lords opposite. But I will see what we get.
In order to explain what I think has been done wrong here, I must first explain what I think has been done right. The question in hand is the reorganisation of water and sewerage services throughout the country. It is undoubtedly right that the British Waterways Board should be involved in this, because if you are dealing with all the water services in the country, from source to tap, and indeed back through the sewage works recovery, from tap to source and tap again, you must include the British Waterways Board. I have many times explained to your Lordships that the greatest service done to the country, and the activity that produces most of the revenue of the British Waterways Board, is the sale of water. This is the most paying part of the Board's enterprise. To leave the Board out of the reorganisation of the water services of this country would be quite impossible; to put it in is undoubtedly right. What is wrong is to do this in the way in which it is being done. The Board is not being put in in one unit but is being broken up into what amounts to seven different pieces.
If noble Lords opposite had taken the advice which was undoubtedly available to them, they would have discovered that, to begin with, this decision is entirely contrary to the facts of geography. A regional waterway such as it is proposed to set up must inevitably be based on a catchment area. In other words, its boundaries are logically and geographically along the top of a watershed. The British Waterways Board is in exactly the opposite geographical state. The canal system was set up in order to link the rivers. Therefore the canals, not only
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historically but by geographical fact, start in one river, go up the hill, over the top of a watershed and down into a river in the other valley. So the natural form of a canal is a reservoir near the top of a high summit, feeding water into the canal at a high level on top of a hill, down both sides of a hill to the river on each side. The logical unit of a canal is just that: the reservoir and the area of canal which that reservoir feeds, terminating in the river, or whatever it is the canal ends up in.
It therefore follows that if you are going to start dividing up the canals of this country between regional water authorities, in many cases you are going to cut the canal on its summit level—where, incidentally, it is usually in tunnel. I do not know who is to pay for the cost of the tunnel. Some unfortunate authority is going to get a tunnel from which it will get no financial benefit. Apart from that, every time a canal is so cut, one authority gets half the canal with a reservoir, and another authority gets half the canal without a reservoir. What is more, canals are supplied with repair depots, which have dredgers, lock-gate-making equipment and all the equipment that is needed to keep a canal in good order. If a canal is cut in half—and that is what is to be done in many cases—one authority will get the repair depot. I do not know what the other authority does. Operating the system, too, will be made extraordinarily difficult and far more expensive than it has been hitherto.
Moreover, a great many absurdities arise. So far in this country, because the canals have been unified, it has been possible to take out a licence which allows the boat to travel all over the country, just as a car licence enables a driver to go where he may please. But under this new system, it appears, we shall have to take out seven licences for a boat in order to go where we wish in the country.
It may be even worse than that. According to a Government announcement, navigation is to be paid for by tolls. I think this must be a mistake; I do not think that even this Government could have fallen into this error. Tolls have been abolished in this country as being a hopelessly inefficient method

975
of collecting money. If the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, were here he would tell your Lordships that the Thames abolished tolls a long time ago. Having toll offices, with men handing out tickets and taking money for every boat, is a wholly inefficient method of collecting revenue; in fact, their employment eats up the larger part of the revenue. I am sure this is not what is intended. But I am equally sure that if we are to have seven licences instead of one licence, it will be the most hopelessly inefficient method of collecting the money, and certainly far less efficient than what is done now. There are disadvantages involved in obtaining a licence. It means that you have to write to an office, and in due course, the Post Office permitting, your licence comes back to you. But think what one would have to do if one had to have seven licences. This is unbelievably bad organisation.
There are many other questions, with which I do not intend to burden your Lordships this evening, but I would point out that the river authorities are, to some extent, navigation authorities, and it is true to say that the regional water authorities will be taking over a number of navigations. They will be taking over the Thames, the Nene and a number of others. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, when he replies, will be able to tell us whether it will be possible to combine these licences and make one licence for the whole country, including all the rivers. That would be a definite argument in favour of this proposal. I should not even object if he said that the River Severn, where the navigation authority is the British Waterways Board but the river authority is a separate authority, and one or two other similar waterways, are to be taken over by these new regional water authorities.
The idea that it is cheaper to run the cross-country inland navigations in this country in seven different parts instead of in one piece is absurd. I am sure that this has not been properly thought out. I should not have been inflicting this speech on your Lordships at this late hour if the position had not been that this matter has to be dealt with before early spring, because legislation is soon
976
to be brought in. This also applies to a number of Questions (I apologise for them in advance) which I have on the Paper for next Tuesday and Wednesday. Nevertheless, there are a large number of questions arising on this subject which have not so far been properly dealt with.
There is one further point I should like to bring out this evening. As a sort of drive to accept this proposal, it has been mooted to those of us who are interested in this matter that under the new arrangements much larger sums will be made available for navigation and amenity than are now available. That is something which normally I should be prepared to cheer loudly. But then I discovered that two other things are also true. The first is that navigation and the other separate purposes of these regional water boards are all to be taken into separate account, and each account is to be treated on its merits, so that presumably if a larger sum had been given for navigation and other amenities at some point, the navigation and other amenity users, including presumably fishermen, will have to find the money. What is more, we find a further nasty little paragraph which says that at some point, if the money is not found, the regional water authorities will have the power to wind up the navigation. In other words, having been given a larger sum of money, we are expected to hand it back; and if we fail to do so our waterways will be abolished. This is not nearly good enough, and on those terms it would be much better if we did not have the gift.
I am not going to put the entire range of the points I wanted to talk about to your Lordships; it would take too long and the patience of your Lordships would be far too sorely tried. I wish merely to point out that things could be done differently. There is no reason why the British Waterways Board should not be inserted into the new system in one piece. The British Waterways Board is unique in the sense that, whereas other water-ways and streams are each a matter for one particular catchment area, the British Waterways Board works, inevitably by their mere geographical fact, join the catchment areas together. Therefore it would be logical in this particular case to insert the British Waterways Board into the new set-up in one piece. It is

977
the only organisation for which this would have to be done, because logically it is the only organisation which needs to be entered into the scheme in one piece. If this were to happen I feel sure there could be no complaint at all about what was being done. Indeed, if the other navigations and the British Waterways Board could be combined into common licensing and certain other common administrative arrangements, a great improvement would be made. If only the Government had thought of this in the first place, I feel sure 1 should not have needed to weary your Lordships to-night by asking the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
7.22 p.m.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, before I support the noble Viscount, Lord St. Davids, I must declare an interest in this matter because I am President of the Surrey and Hampshire Canals Society. The British Waterways Board have been good keepers of our canals and other waterways; so much so that last year the revenue from selling water increased, as has that from property rents, by considerably more than the increase in the gross national product of the rest of the country.
The canals and waterways provide an irreplaceable amenity value; so much so that last year 1¾ million people actually took holidays on the canals. I do not know how many of your Lordships have been on the canals: I have, once or twice. I have even fallen into them several times, but that seems merely to add to the pleasure of it. It is so important to maintain this amenity value that I felt obliged to get up and support the noble Viscount, Lord St. Davids. Not only have 1¾ million people gone on the waterways—and I include here the Norfolk Broads—but 15 million tons of freight was carried on the waterways. The British Waterways Board have reached agreement with approximately 25 local authorities for restoration schemes for the canals, which provide not only employment but also a form of remedial training for prisoners, and training for youth camps, Army cadets and such people, all of whom can go and enjoy it and gain valuable experience from this digging of holes in the ground and the removal of big stones from the bottoms of canals. However, most of these res
978
toration schemes have been frowned upon by the Treasury on the grounds of expense.
I should have thought that it would be difficult for several different regional water authorities to have the same sort of pull with the local authorities. If the British Waterways Board was going to be handed over to the National Trust or some similar body, I do not think the same concern would he felt among the waterways community, because the National Trust have a long record of looking after waterways. They keep quite large sections of the Wey, and they are good and careful conservators of that waterway. But it is suggested that the British Waterways Board should be handed over to seven untried water authorities. Even if the Government will not agree to a total reprieve for British Waterways, albeit in its reconstituted form, perhaps they will allow the British Waterways Board five years to go on as it is while the seven regional water authorities get into practice, learn their job and thoroughly settle down. After all, the British Waterways Board are experienced enough for them to be able to continue very efficiently, but the regional water authorities still have to find their feet. I hope that the Government will bear this point in mind when they consider the matter in greater detail.
7.27 p.m.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: My Lords, like others here I welcome the unification of water conservation, distribution and usage, along with the unification of control of pollution, sewerage and sewage. This, as we know, is in line with the Wilson Committee on the Future Management of Water in England and Wales. But that, I believe, is an insufficient base for decisions on some 2,000 miles of inland water transport which has a 12 million tons volume of goods carried per year and which has not shrunk so greatly as is commonly supposed, in that it was only 16 million in 1924. The Wilson Committee was not charged with consideration of the transport aspect, and this explains why it devoted only six paragraphs out of more than 300 to the subject. Nor do the Government appear to have given that much attention. Paragraphs 31 and 32 of the circular do not show the Government as looking with interest, imagination

979
and vision to the future of inland water transport. Indeed, we read that
" … except for a few short lengths, the network of rivers and canals administered by the British Waterways Board no longer fulfils a major transport function".
Then it went on:
"Canals to-day are mainly of local and regional significance."
I should like to ask whether the British Waterways Board was consulted before these decisions were taken; was the Inland Waterways Association consulted before these decisions were taken; and was the Inland Waterways Amenity Advisory Council consulted before the circular was published?
I am interested in this question from the point of view of natural resources. We should not throw away natural assets just because their use has of late been declining. Mineral exploration declined in Britain during the heyday of the Colonial Empire, amid worldwide falls in base metal prices. Yet to-day in different circumstances the Government are offering strong fiscal incentives for mineral exploration.
This is a matter of vision or blindness. The trend towards still bigger ocean-going ships in the deep-sea trades, to which so many were blind five and even two years ago, is now common talk. Then, why not recognise the big ships' counterpart—the increasing demand for smaller ships to cover the transhipment of raw materials likely to be landed, and already to a degree being landed, at the great deep water sites on our West, North and East coasts for movement to inland destinations? Europe is busy studying how to move these materials. Much capital is being invested in the French and German waterway systems. There are the improvements of the Rhine-Main-Danube Canal. There is also much investment in inland waterways in Poland, Hungary, Yugoslavia and Roumania. The Danube countries have even gone so far as to devise and put to use dual purpose barges that can ply both the inland waterways and the open sea.
For Britain, the development of waterborne transport for inland and open sea use is just as critical as it is for Europe. We should not be thinking simply of water transport in these islands as something that is internal and of no interest
980
to our external trade. Just now, when there are significant developments in transport technology in this very matter, is hardly the time to write off our transport waterways as too old, too small, and too poor to deserve thought of further development. All this time a Danish company, in alliance with a well-known British firm—Sutclitfe's of Grimsby—have devised and are now building a BACAT ship. "Barge Abroad Catamaran" is the way that that name is devised. It is designed to be able to ferry as many as 18 barges of 140 tons each—that is more than 2,500 tons in all—across the North Sea at a single time. The current thinking is to pioneer a route from the Humber—that means from Leeds and Nottingham—to Antwerp and, maybe, Scandinavia. This is a new development in ship design which is of great importance to our inland waterways and matches other developments such as the LASH ship, which is to be described as in the same family but on a larger scale.
This is the circumstance that calls for preserving the navigational canals and watching, studying, imagining an altogether new future for them. The day could well come when we want more, not fewer, transport canals to handle the processed, semi-processed and non-processed raw material which will come in bulk to these islands in the coming years.
I quote Mr. J. F. Pownell, a noted student of canals, who, in a book in 1942, pointed out that through the heart of England there runs a natural canal line produced by uniform erosion many ages ago offering long reaches of route on a single level without requiring the delay, cost and obstruction of locks. He wrote:
"The contour of 300 feet runs nearly continuously right through the country … and creates the remarkable possibility of having a canal … without any variation from one level …At 310 feet above sea level"
he continues—
" … it could serve London, Bristol, Southampton, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle."
The concept of Britain's deep water facilities attracting the mammoth ships of to-morrow and intercepting their Europe-bound trade is at last beginning to be grasped. So do not let us ignore one of the immediate implications; namely, that easeful water-borne transport from the heart of Britain into the

981
heart of Europe is complementary and would be a rewarding opportunity for private and public enterprise alike, or in partnership, provided we enter upon it.
That means having a special care for inland water transport. It means having national as well as regional care. It means being ready to treat these waterways as the major assets that they still can be. It may mean getting the Waterways Board as we now know it, or have recently known it, or in the shape we can still recognise, somehow into the new set-up in one piece. However it is done, we need to secure a national care for these matters instead of relegating these waterways to a kind of museum of industrial archaeology, fit to be no more than the plaything of men at leisure. I plead for a new look at this transport aspect with a view, maybe, to a tremendous development to-morrow that we must not prejudice. The great James Brindley likened uncontrolled, under-used water to a furious giant. He said:
"But if you lay the giant flat upon his back he loses all his force and becomes completely passive whatever his size may be".
LORD NUNBURNHOLME: My Lords, I do not want to keep you, but I want to mention one subject. It is essential to give all the support we can to keeping the Inland Waterways Board in one piece. We do not want to see it sold off simply because one part is not making any money whereas another is. Nobody has mentioned the good that the waterways do to the farming community in this country. We are getting more and more land pipe-drained throughout the country, and we are increasing our food production year by year. The waterways are a means of getting rid of water off the farms. That point has not been mentioned by any speaker in the House this evening, and I commend it to the Government.
7.38 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I cannot think what the noble Viscount, Lord St. Davids, had in mind when he challenged us with having dealt with this matter with undue haste. The Central Advisory Water Committee have been sitting and considering the future organisation of water services in this country for l8 months. We have been giving it the most serious, detailed and profound consideration since they reported in
982
April, 1971. If there has been any criticism as to timing so far, it has almost all been that we were taking too long about it. Even now we are only just embarking on consultations, and it is premature to accuse us of a failure to consult. The document we are discussing is a consultation document. It was published a week ago; already the Chairman of the British Waterways Board has been to see us twice. We are embarking on consultations; there is no question of a failure to consult. The object of publishing the paper is in order to get consultations going.
Perhaps I may remind the House of the phrase in the Statement (which we did not have in this House) relating to the British Waterways Board. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, presenting the Statement in another place, said:
"As suggested in the Committee's report, the responsibilities of the British Waterways Board for canals and certain rivers will be transferred to the regional water authorities. I am convinced that, in conjunction with the local authorities, they can build upon the valuable work the board has done, in particular by adapting the present canal system to one more directly designed for amenity and recreation."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 2/12/71; col. 678.]
Those were his words, my Lords.
The country's canals were built in the 18th and early 19th century for the carriage of freight. Nowadays, except for a few short lengths, the 2,000 miles network of canals and river navigations now administered by the British Waterways Board is no longer of significance for transport: only a few fragments out of the 340 miles of the commercial waterways are useful for transport purposes. I must correct the noble Lord who said that in 1970 the British Waterways Board network carried 15 million tons. It carried 6½ million tons. Sadly but surely, first rail and then road competition has left our inland waterways with less than one-half of 1 per cent. of the total inland movement of freight in this country. That is a fact we have to face, much as we may regret it.
However, this is by no means the end of the canals. Far from it. They and their associated reservoirs, as the noble Viscount, Lord St. Davids, said, are becoming increasingly important. In two ways, their new roles are quite different from their original roles. First, they have

983
become, as my noble friend Lord Onslow has reminded the House, an important part of the water supply industry. The British Waterways Board's water sales (their customers include statutory water undertakers, local authorities and a wide range of industries) are now at a level of 450 million gallons a day. And as the noble Lord, Lord Nunburnholme, reminded us, the canals are also inextricably involved in land drainage and the disposal of effluents. And, as a further and increasingly important benefit, the canals are to-day of growing value for recreation and amenity—for such pleasures as fishing, canoeing, cruising, and simply for walking along the towpath. These last matters are ones which the Government wish, and indeed intend, very much to encourage.
Thus, while of limited significance for transport, the inland waterways' role now is in water conservation and supply, land drainage and sewerage, and, last but not least, in providing recreation and amenity. All these are matters of local concern, and it is no longer appropriate that the canals should continue to be administered as a nationalised transport industry. It is much more sensible that the system as a whole should be related rather to the system of water conservation, river management, water supply and water-borne recreation. Nevertheless, I am glad to be able to say to my noble friend Lord Lauderdale that Her Majesty's Government have started consultations with the major operators of freight services about the future maintenance and development of the commercial waterways, in so far as they still provide a useful transport service.
It is the intention of the Government in discussions on Circular 92/71, published a week ago, on the reorganisation of water and sewage services, to adhere to the principle that the water system in England should be controlled by nine regional water authorities. The Government intend that within this organisation a viable commercial canal system should continue to be operated for transportation and that the quality of canals for amenity should be improved. In the discussions, which are only just beginning, on the circular with interested bodies, including the British
984
Waterways Board, the Government are anxious to devise the best management structure and other administrative machinery in order to achieve these objectives, and in those discussions of course the matter of boundaries, licensing, and the timing of the changeover can all be taken into account. On the outcome of these discussions the eventual legislation will be based. My Lords, the amenity and recreational aspects of the canals are now among their most important aspects, and, as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment has said, so far from these being threatened or diminished we are convinced that these aspects will be substantially improved as a result of the implementation of these proposals. If we did not think that we would not have been putting them forward.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down may I ask him whether he would be so kind as to come back to his figures on freight? Is it not the case that The National Association of Inland Waterway Carriers published quite recently the following statement:
"The tonnages of Coal, Petroleum products and general merchandise carried on British Waterways owned navigations in 1969 by the independent Carriers and British Waterways are as indicated below: Independent Carriers: 6,133.000 tons; British Waterways: 6,701,000 tons",
making a total of 12 million-odd tons? Perhaps the noble Lord would be so kind as to check those figures, because I have shot them at him at rather short notice. One appreciates his kindness, interest and courtesy in all these matters.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I do not in the least mind being shot at by the noble Earl, but 1 think he will find that the figures I was giving were referring to the system managed by the British Waterways Board, and 6½ million tons are right for that. I think he may have been quoting other figures covering all the inland waterways which go wider.

WELLINGTON ESTATE BILL [H.L.]
Bill (as approved by the Personal Bills Committee) presented, and read 1ª.
PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE
Second Report from the Select Committee, made, and to be printed.
  COMMONWEALTH SUBJECTS AND UNITED KINGDOM CITIZENSHIP RIGHTS
  COMMONWEALTH SUBJECTS AND UNITED KINGDOM CITIZENSHIP RIGHTS
  MUSEUMS AND GALLERIES ADMISSION CHARGES
  MUSEUMS AND GALLERIES ADMISSION CHARGES