Sitting of 1 April 1971

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN

  INCOME TAX
  The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSE-HOLD reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Addresses, as follows:
  I have received your Addresses praying that the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Faroe Islands) Order 1971 and the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (France) Order 1971 be made in the form of drafts laid before your House.
  I will comply with your request.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EDUCATION AND SCIENCE

    Havering
    Mr. Leonardasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many primary school classes of more than 40 children there are in the London Borough of Havering; and what steps are being taken to eliminate overcrowding in primary schools in the borough.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. William van Straubenzee): In January, 1970, 150. Figures for 1971 are not readily available but should be lower. 560 additional places will be provided by two new primary schools approved for starting in the period up to March, 1973.
    Mr. Leonard: I welcome the progress which has been made, but is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are no
    1648
    grounds for satisfaction about the present position in Havering, which has easily the worst record for over-crowded classes of any London borough? Will the hon. Gentleman impress on the borough that to reduce the size of over-crowded classes must take priority over cutting local rates, which the council has perversely chosen to do this year?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: I have no doubt that the position in Havering, which I accept is unsatisfactory, is very much in the mind of the local education authority.
    Mr. Leonardasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what revised proposals she has received, since 18th June, 1970, from the London Borough of Havering, concerning the reorganisation of secondary education within the borough.
    The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher): None, Sir.
    Mr. Leonard: Is the right hon. Lady aware that, despite the fact that all parents in the borough of Havering have received a personal letter from the education office assuring them that all the secondary schools in the borough will go comprehensive by 1972, the council is now actively considering a scheme which will introduce a super selective élite system of education, with 12 per cent. selection as against the present 25 per cent.? Will the right hon. Lady indicate sternly to the council that this is a gross breach of faith with both teachers and parents in the borough?
    Mrs. Thatcher: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving me the opportunity of pointing out that there can be no change in the character of any school unless the proper legal procedure under Section 13 of the Education Act, 1944, has been carried out, which gives two months for individual objections. Non-statutory plans have no basis whatsoever in law. It is only the legal procedure which counts.

  Student Grants
  Mr. Laneasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether she will now make a further statement on the review of student grants.
  Mr. Ashleyasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations she has received from the National Union of Students about students' grants; and what reply she has sent.
  Mr. Barnesasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will now make a statement on the review which she has carried out to determine the level of student grants for the period beginning 1st September, 1971.
  Mrs. Thatcher: The National Union of Students has submitted a claim for higher rates of grant and other changes in the student support system. As we are still dealing with Stage II of the procedure, I am not yet ready to make a statement but will do so when the review is complete.
  Mr. Lane: I appreciate that, but can my right hon. Friend confirm that, whatever change may be made by the Government in the level of grants, she will do everything she can to remove or at least lessen the inequities in the system as between one system and another and one group of students and another?
  Mrs. Thatcher: Stage II is concerned with determining the total sum and stage III is concerned with discussions to agree on the distribution of that total sum. If my hon. Friend is concerned with the position as between mandatory and discretionary grants, any change in that respect would require legislation.
  Mr. Ashley: Does the Secretary of State recall that she indicated to the House that she would make a statement this month? Would she do that without delay and perhaps take into account the fact that students are not among the surtax payers who were helped in the Budget?
  Mrs. Thatcher: I said that I would not be ready to make a statement before April, and the procedure is taking a little longer than we thought it would. I shall bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman said. But some students' parents benefited in the Budget.
  Mr. Barnes: Will the Secretary of State pay particular attention to the way in
  1650
  which the parental means test is straining family relationships in cases in which parents cannot afford what their sons and daughters need? Will she give an assurance that she will raise the base of the parental means test and make consequent adjustments to the rest of the scale?
  Mrs. Thatcher: The parental contribution is one of the things that will be considered in conjunction with the vice-chancellors, local authorities and student bodies under Stage III of the negotiations.
  Mr. Alan Williams: The House will welcome the comment which the right hon. Lady has just made, but to help in the discussion of alternative methods, will she ask her right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give the House an estimate of the administrative cost of replacing the present means testing system by a system of uniform grants coupled with a tax claw-back of parental contributions?
  Mrs. Thatcher: This is a difficult calculation to make. The National Union of Students gave us to understand that on its calculation the cost would be about £2 million. I have been doing some investigations and can find no basis for that figure from our statistics.
  Mr. Freeson: Will the right hon. Lady assure us that she has not closed her mind to the possibility of legislating a change of structure of student grants, apart from the immediate issue of reviewing the level?
  Mrs. Thatcher: I have not closed my mind, but even if the policy were agreed —and that is a matter for debate—there would be the question of finding legislative time. There is no decision on the policy matter, and I should not like to give the impression that there is.
  Sir G. Nabarro: Whereas all parents are grateful for the increase of £40 per annum in the income tax allowance for all children of all ages, does not my right hon. Friend recognise that there is a powerful case for a special increased allowance for income tax purposes for boys and girls at universities or on similar courses, and that that would be the proper way of tackling this question instead of tinkering about with the present system, which is hopeless anyway?
  Mrs. Thatcher: I am not responsible for the tax allowances, but my recollection is—and perhaps my hon. Friend will check this with the Chancellor of the Exchequer—that child allowances are available so long as the child is in receipt of full-time education, and that applies to both college and university students.

  Local Authority Education Committees (Teacher Representation)
  Mr. Barry Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is her policy on the representation of teachers on local authority education committees; and what is her estimate of the effect of local government reform upon existing teacher representation on education committees.
  Mrs. Thatcher: Teachers have an important contribution to make to the work of education committees and I strongly support their appointment. The present arrangements for establishing education committees will be included in the review referred to in paragraph 46 of the White Paper.
  Mr. Jones: Is the Secretary of State aware that some local education authorities deny representation altogether, while others deny representation on important sub-committees? Is she also aware that some local education authorities co-opt to their committees pliant and tame teachers rather than teachers elected by ballot in the locality? What determined action will her Department take to ensure that the principle of teacher representation is safeguarded both currently and in local government reorganisation?
  Mrs. Thatcher: Although the Act does not require teacher representation, in practice 135 out of a total of 163 local education authorities provide explicitly for this. Of the remaining 28, all but two provide specifically for the co-option of non-councillor members. It can reasonably be assumed that most of these take advantage of this to include teachers as members. That leaves only two out of the total.

  Teaching Profession
  Mr. Barry Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what measures she proposes to make the teaching profession more attractive to would-be entrants.
  Mrs. Thatcher: There were 18,500 more teachers in maintained schools in October, 1970 than in October, 1969. This was the largest increase ever. The latest figures suggest that a higher proportion are remaining in the profession.
  Mr. Jones: Is the Secretary of State aware that the number of suitable applicants for training in the teaching profession declined last year? Does she agree that salaries are the prinicipal factor in this decline and will she not consider coming out in defence of the profession and denouncing the ramshackle and derisive pay increase currently offered by the management?
  Mrs. Thatcher: The number of applicants to the colleges of education was down—that is to say, the non-graduate applicants for teaching were fewer—but there were more graduate applicants, so there is a net increase in the number of people coming into teaching.
  Mr. Alan Williams: Does not the right hon. Lady agree that her answer merely demonstrates the problem being encountered at the moment by graduates in finding employment and has no longterm significance?
  Mrs. Thatcher: No, I would not agree. A large number of graduates are interested in coming into teaching as teaching.
  Mr. Scott-Hopkinsasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will ensure a new salary structure for the teaching profession which gives added incentives to those with added responsibilities and those who intend to make it a lifelong career.
  Mrs. Thatcher: The reformed pay structure proposed by the management panel of the Burnham Committee, on which I have two representatives, is designed to achieve these objectives.
  Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Does my right hon. Friend agree that a most important factor is to provide a career structure which will make it worth while for men and women to stay in teaching as long as possible? Does she also agree that one of the difficulties in the past has been the vast number of girl teachers who have qualified and then left the profession, thus leaving a great gap at the bottom of the scale?
  Mrs. Thatcher: I agree that pay structure is most important, and we hope that those young women who leave teaching will come back into the profession later.
  Mr. Armstrong: Does the Secretary of State agree that it is not a crime for a lady to train as a teacher or to accept university training, to do a little time in school, then to get married and have children and afterwards to come back into the teaching profession? Will not the new structure proposed by the authorities penalise women and also divide the profession, in view of the distinction between primary and secondary schools which we on this side of the House have for so long been trying to end? Since the right hon. Lady has a direct responsibility on the negotiating body, will she try to do something about this situation?
  Mrs. Thatcher: No one is suggesting that what the hon. Gentleman said was alleged to be a crime is in fact a crime. Certainly my hon. Friend did not suggest it. It is something that usually happens in the normal course of events. We hope that these young women will come back into teaching. On the second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, it seems that the teaching profession is divided on the matter of structure, but I do not necessarily accept that the structure itself is divisive. Indeed, it gives far more opportunities to those teaching in primary schools to become heads and deputy heads than applies to those teaching in secondary schools.

  National Youth Orchestra and National Youth Brass Band
  Mr. William Priceasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how much financial assistance the National Youth Orchestra has received from the Arts Council during the past five years; and what was the figure for the National Youth Brass Band.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: Grants to individual organisations are a matter for the Arts Council.
  Mr. Price: Will the Minister tell me why the National Youth Orchestra, quite rightly, receives a large sum of money each year whereas the National Youth Brass Band has consistently been refused assistance? Is he aware of the feel-
  1654
  ing in the musical world that if one is a middle-class harpist all is well but a working-class bugler does not get a look in?
  Mr. van Straubenzee: If it be the fact, which I do not accept, that a workingclass bugler is not given assistance, the fault lies at the door of the Arts Council presided over by a member of the Labour Party.
  Mr. Hugh Jenkins: Is not the Arts Council ready to receive an application from any source and would not an application supported, for example, by the local authority in Rugby be well received by the Arts Council?
  Mr. Price: Not by the Tories.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I must leave this internal battle to be settled between the two hon. Gentlemen opposite. When there is an Arts Council structure, it does not make sense for Ministers of any party personally to allocate funds. I am grateful for the support of the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins).
  Mr. Lane: I do not wish to do the brass band down, but has not the National Youth Orchestra's grant remained unchanged for at least five years and will my hon. Friend take every opportunity of encouraging this orchestra as a nursery for the great musicians of the future?
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I certainly pay a warm tribute to the work of the orchestra, but the money allocated to it must be an Arts Council matter.

  Theatrical Productions (Subsidies)
  Mr. Evelyn Kingasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will make a statement on the progress of consultations with the Arts Council with a view to the withholding of subsidies from public funds for theatrical productions which are blasphemous or obscene.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: Consultations between my noble Friend and the Arts Council are still proceeding.
  Mr. King: Is the Minister aware that the mild suggestions made by one of his colleagues were described by Mr. Kenneth Tynan as "cheeky" and were disapproved of by Mr. Jonathan Miller?

  1655
  Do noises of this sort from so august a quarter still strike terror in the Ministerial heart, or is the literary and dramatic climate changing?
  Mr. van Straubenzee: It would take considerably more than that to strike terror in any Ministerial heart. I am happy to say that my answer is accurate and that the matter is still in discussion with the Arts Council.
  Mr. Faulds: Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that it would be entirely unacceptable to interfere with the artistic and creative processes sponsored by the Arts Council simply because certain elderly hon. Members suffer either from religious bigotry or sexual guilt?
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I do not propose to attempt identification. There has never been the smallest disposition on the part of my noble Friend to be the person who makes these decisions, but there is widespread support for his view that it is not appropriate for public money to be made available for purposes which are gravely offensive to a wide range of people.

  Schoolchildren (Nutrition)
  Miss Lestorasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will institute an inquiry into the nutritional and dietary circumstances of schoolchildren.
  Mrs. Thatcher: The Committee on Medical Aspects of Food Policy, through its Panel on the Nutrition of School Children, keeps this matter under review.
  Miss Lestor: Is the right hon. Lady not aware that there is great concern on this side of the House and among many of her hon. Friends, as well as among doctors outside the House, at the complete rejection by her hon. Friend of the Queen Elizabeth College survey on nutrition among schoolchildren? Is it not time the Government themselves undertook a survey to examine the effects of the increases in school meal charges and the withdrawal of school milk?
  Mrs. Thatcher: It would help to adjudge that survey if it were published. It has never been published.
  Miss Lestor: That is not the point. The point is that there was an interim
  1656
  report which was published and available. It was that which was rejected by her hon. Friend on the Prayer on school meals and milk.
  Mrs. Thatcher: I fail to see why a survey which has been completed should not be published if I am asked to adjudge upon it.
  Mr. Lane: Is it not a fact that during the last six years, in spite of increases in school meal charges, an appreciably higher proportion of children are receiving school meals than was the case in 1964?
  Mrs. Thatcher: Certainly more are receiving school meals free. I am glad to announce that all children in families which are in receipt of family incomes supplement will be entitled to free school meals without separate assessment. Amending legislation will be laid before Parliament in due course.
  Mr. Frank Allaun: Does the right hon. Lady accept that many children are going to school without having had anything to eat since five o'clock the previous evening? If the number of children receiving school dinners were to go down by, let us say, half a million, would she reconsider the question of charges and also the withdrawal of free school milk?
  Mrs. Thatcher: I am satisfied that the arrangements in respect of free school meals are operating as well as we can possibly get them to operate, and there will be another campaign to this end. All those who receive supplementary benefits are automatically entitled to free school meals and those in receipt of family incomes supplement will be automatically entitled to them. The hon. Gentleman's opening remark is a matter for the welfare services rather than for the school meals service.

  School Meals
  Mr. Hugh Jenkinsasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proportion of children takes school meals in the Inner London Education Authority area; what percentage is provided free; and what advice she has tended to local education authorities so as to avoid children knowing who pays and who does not.
  Mrs. Thatcher: On a day in the autumn, 1970, 65·6 per cent. of the pupils present at maintained schools in the Inner London Education authority area took the school meal and 14·9 per cent. of those present received it free of charge. Paragraph 5 of Circular 3/71 reminded authorities again that the collection of the charge for school meals and the dining arrangements should be so organised that those who receive free meals cannot be identified by other pupils.
  Mr. Jenkins: Does the right hon. Lady know how this matter is working out in practice? Will she institute inquiries to discover whether in fact this is being done without embarrassment to children and their parents? If she looks into the matter, she may find that the circular is not universally operated in a manner that is free from objection.
  Mrs. Thatcher: We make inquiries into every case that is reported to us. Our information is that there will be very few such cases, but those which come to us are followed up because we are anxious that the children should not be identified.
  Mr. Faulds: Is the Secretary of State aware that there is a young boy of 11 in my constituency who is illegitimate and who now refuses to go to school because he has to put up his hand to get a free dinner? He knows why and so do the other children. Has the right hon. Lady any comprehension of how much we on this side of the House despise and loathe a Government whose policies and priorities lead to that sort of human suffering?
  Mrs. Thatcher: I am sure that both the previous Government and myself would condemn any such arrangement. I assume that the hon. Gentleman, the moment he heard of this matter, approached the headmaster, the chief education officer and the chairman of the education committee to deal with it.
  Mr. Faulds: I shall be doing so. I received the letter only yesterday.

  Teacher Training Colleges (Failure Rate)
  Mr. Scott-Hopkinsasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many students at teacher training colleges have failed to qualify in 1970;
  1658
  and how many, having qualified, have taken employment outside the teaching profession.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: Information relating to 1970 is not yet available. In 1969, 1,119 students completing their training failed the final examination. Of the 28,213 non-graduate students successfully completing training in that year, about 24,000 had entered maintained primary and secondary schools by February, 1970. More than half of the remainder were continuing their studies.
  Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Would my hon. Friend not agree that this figure of dropout shows exactly the same kind of proportion as has happened in regard to students in universities? Does not some investigation need to be made to see that State money is not wasted in giving training to people who at the end of the day do not follow it up?
  Mr. van Straubenzee: These are not comparable figures. I am being asked about those who have completed their training, and I am pointing to the fact that a very small percentage is unaccounted for. It is reasonable on previous figures to suppose that a considerable number of those people, after a break, go into the profession for which they are trained.

  Art Galleries and Museums (Admission Charges)
  Mr. Hardyasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the number of individuals who have protested against, or criticised, the proposals to establish admission charges at art galleries and museums; whether this be by letter or by signature only; and what replies she has sent.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: Up to Monday. 22nd March, 358 letters protesting against, or criticising, the introduction of admission charges for museums and galleries had been received in the Department of Education and Science. These included 63 letters on behalf of various organisations and 22 petitions bearing 1,842 signatures. Individual replies have been, or are being, sent to all letters.
  Mr. Hardy: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply, but would he not agree that, in view of the opposition which has arisen to these charges and the

  1659
  difficulties which such a scheme inevitably will cause, this matter should be reconsidered? Does he not agree that some of the arguments advanced in support of the imposition of admission charges could also be used to justify charges for such events as the Trooping of the Colour, the Changing of the Guard and the State Opening of Parliament?
  Mr. van Straubenzee: We have on other occasions debated the merits of this suggestion. When I saw the answer to this Question, I thought how remarkable it was that only 1,800 signatures had been obtained on this subject, when one considers that some 12 million people each year visit the institutions concerned.
  Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg: Does my hon. Friend not agree that the mere fact that several thousand people have paid admission charges to see the costumes used in the B.B.C. television series on Henry VIII proves that his right hon. Friend is on the right lines with this proposal?
  Mr. van Straubenzee: Yes, there are widespread inconsistencies, and indeed on some occasions charges are levied within some of the institutions affected.
  Mr. Faulds: Will the hon. Gentleman not be honest and admit that he realises as well as the rest of us that the whole of the artistic and cultural establishment of this country is opposed to these charges? Will he not, even now, reconsider the possibility of revoking this ridiculous proposal?
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I certainly do not accept the hon. Gentleman as the spokesman for all the cultural interests he mentions.
  Mr. Faulds: More so than you.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: It certainly can be said that there is widespread support for the proposals which have been made.

  Saddleworth Secondary School,West Riding
  Mr. David Clarkasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what priority was accorded to Saddleworth Secondary School at Uppermill by the West Riding County Council in the submission of their secondary school major building programme for 1971–72; and if she will include this in her programme.
  Mrs. Thatcher: The projects submitted by the West Riding Local Education Authority for the 1971–72 Preliminary List, from which the 1973–74 Starts Programme will be drawn, were not arranged in order of priority. No decisions have yet been taken on this programme.
  Mr. Clark: I thank the Secretary of State for that reply. When she has taken a final decision, will she bear in mind that there is considerable—in fact, overwhelming—support in the Saddleworth area for a comprehensive school?
  Mrs. Thatcher: I shall bear the hon. Gentleman's representations in mind. Indeed, we had an Adjournment debate on the subject earlier in the year.

  Secondary School Building Programme
  Mr. David Clarkasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what consultations she has with local education authorities before approving her major secondary school building programme.
  Mrs. Thatcher: I invite each local education authority to submit proposals in order of priority. My officers generally discuss these with the authority concerned before the programme is drawn up.
  Mr. Clark: Will the Minister clarify this point? She invites local education authorities to submit a list of priorities, and obviously she has respect to those priorities. Has the West Riding not issued its list in order of priority?
  Mrs. Thatcher: That emerged from the answer to the last Question. The West Riding has not submitted its list in order of priority. Usually the order emerges in the course of discussions between our officials and the local education authority.

  School Building Programme, London
  Mr. Hugh Jenkinsasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what arrangements she is making to restore the cuts she has proposed in the Inner London Education Authority school building programme for 1971–72.
  Mr. van Straubenzee rose—
  Mr. Jenkins: On a point of order. Before the Minister replies, may I point

  1661
  out that it is almost certain that the year 1971–72 in my Question ought to read "1972–73".
  Mr. van Straubenzee: This, of course, is of some importance because in respect of the year 1971–72 my right hon. Friend has made no such proposals. I must ask the hon. Member to get his figures right.
  Mr. Jenkins: However it has come to read "1971–72" on the Order Paper, I do not wish to put the blame other than upon myself. However, I think it was obvious to the Minister that the Question must relate to 1972–73, because he well knows that he has just rejected and cut the I.L.E.A.'s request in this respect by three schools—two primary schools and the enlargement of a third—in South London. He further knows that these schools are essential and that his right hon. Friend has had interviews with the I.L.E.A. in which it pleaded with her to put these schools back. Therefore, the Minister should be in a position to answer the Question.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Gentleman, but he is wrong again. He is referring not to the school building programme for 1972–73, but to the minor works allocation, which is a very different matter.

  Comprehensive Education
  Mr. Dormandasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will state the different forms of comprehensive education now approved by her department; and whether she will list the number of each form in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Mrs. Thatcher: The four main patterns in operation are: all-through schools, 1116 schools feeding sixth form colleges, various types of two-tier arrangements and middle school arrangements. With permission, I will circulate further information in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
  Mr. Dormand: Is the Secretary of State aware that many schools designated as comprehensive do not in fact fulfil the basic criterion of comprehensive education; that is, they do not admit the full ability range? Does the right hon. Lady agree that this makes nonsense of many of the plans for reorganisation which have been submitted to her? In view of the Government's lack of
  1662
  enthusiasm for comprehensive education, is she happy to have it that way?
  Mrs. Thatcher: It is well known by all those who survived the last Parliament that comprehensive and non-selective education are two different things. Often to get comprehensive education one needs to select in order to get an all-ability range in each school. That is known as banding, and that was rejected by the last Government. Selection is not necessarily rejected by this Government.
  Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the middle school form of comprehensive education is an excellent way of doing it? Will she take steps to explain to areas such as Derbyshire, where there has been a great controversy in the Matlock area, the great advantages which can accrue to parents and children of adopting the middle school form?
  Mrs. Thatcher: In some areas the middle school system works very well. Conditions vary from area to area in the buildings and staff which are available. It is difficult to make any overall judgment unless one knows the background of each area.
  Miss Lestor: Does the right hon. Lady agree that the whole principle of comprehensive education is eroded when streaming within comprehensive schools takes place? Will she therefore issue a circular to this effect and advise people in comprehensive schools that they are destroying the whole principle when that exists?
  Mrs. Thatcher: No, I will not. Arrangements within schools are matters for the heads of those schools.
  Mr. Leslie Huckfield: What policy does the Secretary of State intend to adopt towards the direct-grant school in these various forms of comprehensive education which she has just listed?
  Mrs. Thatcher: Direct-grant schools will continue as they are for the time being.
  Following is the information:
  The following Table shows the main different patterns of comprehensive organisation which have been approved in principle since 1965 and the number of authorities proposing each

  1663
  pattern. The plans of some county authorities in particular include more than one kind of organisation. The figures relate to England and Wales.

  Number of authorities

  All-through comprehensive schools (11–18)

  64

  Mixed pattern of 11–16 and 11–18 schools

  25

  11–16 schools followed by sixth form colleges

  22

  Two-tier arrangements

  32

  Middle school arrangements

  61

  Teachers (Pay)
  Mr. Laneasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress there has been in the teachers' salary negotiations; and whether she will make a statement.
  Mr. Martenasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will make a statement on the teachers' pay claim.
  Mr. Leadbitterasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress has been made on the teachers' pay negotiations; and if she will make a statement.
  Mrs. Thatcher: The negotiations in the Burnham Committee reached deadlock on 5th March. The independent chairman ruled that there had been full opportunity for discussion and negotiation and that the matter should be referred to arbitration. He then asked my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment to convene an arbitral body. My right hon. Friend has written to each panel inviting nominations of suitable persons to serve.
  Mr. Lane: Is there not wide public support for reasonable, but not excessive, salary increases coupled with improvements in structure? Will my right hon. Friend take any opportunity which may be open to her to persuade the teachers to accept arbitration as the best and quickest way of reaching a settlement?
  Mrs. Thatcher: The arrangements for arbitration are in the hands of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment. The independent chairman has written to him asking him to convene an arbitral body to arbitrate on the differences between the teachers' panel and the management panel on pay structure and salary scales from 1st April, 1971.
  Mr. Marten: First, was not the settlement last year made on the understanding that there would be a restructuring settlement in subsequent agreements? Secondly, was it not the Remuneration of Teachers' Act, 1965, passed by the Labour Government, which set up arbitration under this scheme? Have the Opposition supported the present Government in their appeal for arbitration?
  Mrs. Thatcher: The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary is "Yes, Sir" and to the second part also, "Yes, Sir" The arbitration arrangements were set up by the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) when he was Secretary of State for Education.
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: Is the right hon. Lady aware that the great suspicion of the teachers towards arbitration is because they fear that there will not be an impartial chairman? Will she therefore ensure that if there is arbitration, the chairman is completely impartial?
  Mrs. Thatcher: Under the arrangements made by the right hon. Member for Grimsby, my right hon. Friend has to consult both panels before an independent chairman is appointed.
  Mr. Edwin Wainwright: Does the right hon. Lady realise that it is not just the global figure which is upsetting the teaching profession but the restructuring which has been mentioned? Will she say what consultation has taken place with the Burnham Committee and the N.U.T. and will she make a statement on the views expressed by the N.U.T., which have been entirely ignored by the Burnham Committee?
  Mrs. Thatcher: Since the deadlock the N.U.T. has expressed no views to me, but I understand that it has seen officials at the Department of Employment.
  Sir R. Cary: May I ask my right hon. Friend, in restructuring the pay of teachers, what benefit could accrue to those who teach in primary schools, whose need is most urgent at the present time?
  Mrs. Thatcher: The one outstanding point which occurs immediately is a new

  1665
  increment. After the rest of the increments have reached their maximum, an extra one is given after three years of service which takes the bottom scale at its top level to a figure in excess of £2,000 a year.
  Mr. Denis Howell: In view of yesterday's offer by the Ford management, following that of Vauxhall, why should the teachers be satisfied with their present offer? Having regard to the Budget and the situation in which management is now offering workers outside so much in advance of what the Secretary of State is offering to the teachers, will she reconsider the offer that has been made?
  Mrs. Thatcher: If one is considering a pay award, one has to consider everything associated with it, including the regular annual increments, the holiday arrangements and the pension arrangements, which are protected from inflation in the case of teachers not by teachers' contributions but by money made up from taxpayers' contributions to the Treasury.

  Works of Art (Gifts to the Nation)
  Mr. Straussasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether she proposes to introduce legislation to annul the provisions in wills making gifts to the nation of works of art now exhibited in galleries and museums conditional on their being made available to the public gratuitously.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: No, Sir.
  Mr. Strauss: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Turner left his magnificent collection of pictures to the nation on the understanding that they should be freely accessible to the public, that many other gifts of work in our national collections were made on the same conditions, and that, whatever the legal position may be, it is surely a moral breach of trust to override the request contained in these generous bequests?
  Mr. van Straubenzee: I have said in the course of previous exchanges that, in so far as enabling legislation was necessary, it would be introduced. But there is no intention of introducing legislation of the kind mentioned in the Question.
  Mr. Faulds: Does the hon. Gentleman not understand that he is breaking faith with the past in that the donors of many
  1666
  magnificent gifts to our national collections expected stipulations in their wills to be observed and that he should now admit that he is pursuing a dishonourable course in this matter?
  Mr. van Straubenzee: For reasons that we all regret, the hon. Gentleman has not been able to be with us for some time. If he had been able to listen to some of our exchanges, he would realise that the construction, for example, of the expression "freely available" is not necessarily that which is sometimes placed upon it.

  Secondary Education (Selection Procedure)
  Mr. Armstrongasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what percentage of children in maintained schools is subject to selection procedure for secondary education at 11-plus; and what proposals she has for abolishing such procedure.
  Mrs. Thatcher: The Department collects statistics about the number of children in different types of school, but it has never collected statistics about children subject to selection procedure. The answer to the second part of the Question is, "None, Sir".
  Mr. Armstrong: Is the right hon. Lady aware that in many local authorities selection at the age of 11 is still being made, which is in direct contradiction to the statement in the Conservative Party manifesto at the last election that the age of 11 was much too early to make decisions about children's future? As it is true that a great number of children are still being selected or rejected at the age of 11 and are having to write themselves off far below their potential, will the right hon. Lady accept some responsibility as the Minister in getting ahead with abolishing this iniquitous procedure, instead of putting everything on to the local authorities?
  Mrs. Thatcher: The age of 11 is too early to make a final decision about any child's future, and so is any school age. Whatever the age at which a child's potential appears, full provision must be made for drawing it out and giving the child the very best education possible.

  Nursing Education (Accommodation)
  Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Education and Science

  1667
  if she will encourage the provision of nursery education accommodation as near as possible to the homes of families with young children, and, as a start, propose the conversion into a nursery classroom of one ground-floor flat with access to outdoor play space on estates of council multi-storey flats.
  Mr. van Straubenzee: This kind of provision is eligible for consideration under the Urban Programme if it satisfies the requirements of the relevant regulations about health and safety.
  Mr. Allaun:.I very much appreciate that Answer. Does the hon. Gentleman realise that many blocks of flats have no playgrounds at all and that, even if there is one, often it is impossible for a mother to keep an eye on her young child perhaps 15 storeys down? As a result, many thousands of children are hemmed in almost permanently in their flats with serious effects on themselves and their mothers.
  Mr. van Straubenzee:I am aware of problems of this kind, and I am aware of them especially in the area represented by the hon. Gentleman. However, the hon. Gentleman will probably agree that alterations of this kind are not always satisfactory to existing blocks and present great problems, but that they make a good deal of sense if they are incorporated at the design stage of new blocks.
  Miss Lestor: When do the Government intend to uphold the commitment given to the National Commission for Nursery Education by the Conservative National Advisory Committee on Education that the Government would be withdrawing Circular 8/60 and increasing the money available under the urban aid programme for nursery schools?
  Mr. van Straubenzee: Certainly it will not be made as a result of an announcement on a technical point dealing with high blocks of flats.

  LANCASHIRE
  Mr. Arthur Davidsonasked the Prime Minister if he will pay an official visit to Lancashire.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Edward Heath):I visited Manchester last Novem-
  1668
  ber, and have at present no plans for a further visit to Lancashire.
  Mr. Davidson:Is the Prime Minister aware that unemployment in Lancashire is uncomfortably high and in some areas is the highest since before the war? Does not he think that it is time to introduce some positive regional incentives and to put an end to the depressing stories from Lancashire of cut-backs, closures and industrial decline that we have heard over the past few months?
  The Prime Minister:As part of Lancashire is a development area, and other parts are intermediate areas, firms have the inducements to invest there. As a result of the Budget, there will be opportunities for firms to expand and to take advantage of the inducements in the two areas.
  Mrs. Kellett:Is my right hon. Friend aware how delighted the citizens of the county town of Lancaster were to welcome him on 12th February, how impressed they were with his interest in the matters brought to his notice both by the City and by the university, and how much they will welcome him whenever he chooses to come again?
  The Prime Minister:I thoroughly enjoyed my useful visit.
  Mr. Thorpe: In regard not only to Lancashire but to the development areas generally, can the Prime Minister say what are his expectations as to the potential reduction of unemployment by the end of this year as a result of his right hon. Friend's Budget?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think that one can set out the impact of Budget measures purely in terms of development or intermediate areas. The information is not available.

  CENTRAL POLICY REVIEW STAFF
  Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Prime Minister what problems have been referred by himself or by Ministers to the Cabinet Inter-Disciplinary Unit; and if he will make a statement.
  The Prime Minister:The advice given by the Central Policy Review Staff, like

  1669
  all advice given by officials to Ministers, is confidential.
  Mrs. Short: While thanking the Prime Minister for that non-answer, may I point out that the whole House will be interested to hear what this body is doing. May I suggest two subjects which he might usefully refer to it? First, will he ask it to investigate methods of stabilising prices now that S.E.T. has been cut? Second, will he ask it to investigate the method of income tax reduction introduced by his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer which gives a man earning £5,000 a year a 6 per cent. increase in his effective income, a man earning £50,000 a year a 67 per cent. increase, and a man earning £100,000 a year more than 100 per cent., virtually doubling his effective income, while a man earning £1,000 a year gets only a 1½ per cent. increase?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think that it is necessary for the hon. Lady to make at Question Time her speech in the Budget debate. These are not matters of the kind dealt with by the Central Policy Review Staff.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: While we all welcome the more optimistic news of the negotiations, can the Prime Minister say whether the Rolls-Royce affair was referred to the Central Policy Review Staff?
  The Prime Minister: Just as the work of the Cabinet Secretariat is never revealed, so in respect of the Central Policy Review Staff—which is part of the Cabinet Secretariat—it would not be wise to embark on a discussion item by item of matters which it may or may not have considered.

  MR. HENRY FORD (DISCUSSION)
  Mr. Carterasked the Prime Minister if he intends to have further meetings with Mr. Henry Ford to discuss the effects of industrial investment decisions on employment and economic growth in the United Kingdom and if he will make a statement on the discussions already held.
  Mr. Sheldonasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his recent meeting with Mr. Henry Ford
  1670
  to discuss the Government's economic measures.
  The Prime Minister:I would refer the hon. Members to the answer I gave to a Question from the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) on 18th March. There are no plans for further meetings with Mr. Ford..—[Vol. 813, c. 396-7.]
  Mr. Carter:While thanking the Prime Minister for that reply, may I ask whether he agrees that Mr. Ford's intervention in this dispute merely had the effect of delaying today's announcement of the basis for settlement? Does he agree, further, that external interference of this kind in Britain's domestic affairs is not called for?
  The Prime Minister: The question of the specific Ford dispute was not discussed at my meetings with Mr. Ford and Mr. Leonard Woodcock. But, in general, I think that any head of a company with a factory in this country is entitled to speak his mind.
  Mr. Sheldon:Is not it a pity that the Ford dispute was not discussed, in view of the bearing that the recent nay award has had on the Government's policy? Is not the Prime Minister aware that his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in his Budget speech on Tuesday that the Government's policy of de-escalation was succeeding? Will the Prime Minister let us know what level of de-escalation he regards as successful, and what level of pay settlement he would regard as showing that his policy is succeeding?
  The Prime Minister:The actual dispute is handled by the Ministers responsible. The basis on which I had a discussion with both Mr. Ford and Mr. Woodcock was that this particular dispute would not be discussed or dealt with. That has been the case in all my discussions, either with industrialists or with trade unionists. The same is true of my discussions with the T.U.C. and the Scottish T.U.C. There was no difference at all. We have not yet had time to study the present proposals in detail, but I must make this general point—that if a company can accommodate a settlement of this kind without increasing its prices and thereby

  1671
  increasing unemployment, it may well be able to justify it, but that is an outlook which must concern the firm itself.
  Mr.Grylls:Would my right hon. Friend not agree that the threat by the Labour Party to nationalise Rolls-Royce —[Laughter.]—is hardly likely to be helpful to investment in Rolls-Royce?
  The Prime Minister: We may be getting a little far from the original Question. We did not discuss the question of Rolls-Royce with Mr. Ford.
  Mr. John Mendelson:In connection with the Prime Minister's discussions with Mr. Henry Ford, did he by any chance hear Lord Stokes on "The World at One".today, when he protested bitterly about the exaggerated stories being spread about this country being always on strike, and pointed out that, during recent visits abroad, he had found that these exaggerated stories were doing great harm to Britain's export prospects? Will the right hon. Gentleman therefore himself refrain from making these exaggerated statements and instruct his Ministerial colleagues to refrain likewise?
  The Prime Minister: I did not hear that programme, because I was giving lunch to the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland in order to have an official discussion—
  Mr. Mendelson: Read the text of the broadcast—
  The Prime Minister: As for Lord Stokes, I recollect occasions in the past on which he caused acute embarrassment to the Leader of the Opposition, the then Prime Minister, and the Labour Party by his remarks about the consequences of industrial unrest in British Leyland.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: When the right hon. Gentleman studies the transcript of what Lord Stokes said today, will he also study the transcript of what he said after the Downing Street agreement in June, 1969, when he welcomed it as the best way of handling industrial relations?
  The Prime Minister: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will study very carefully the consequences which followed from that announcement.
  Mr. Atkinson: On a point of order. I did not want to interrupt the Prime Minister while he was answering, but why
  1672
  is he deliberately discriminating against members of the A.U.E.W.?
  Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter for the Chair.
  Mr. Atkinson:Further to that point of order. My Question, No. Q17, which is identical with No. Q12, was removed from the Order Paper by whoever takes instructions from the Prime Minister and then put back again, but it was put back as No. Q17. I should have thought it reasonable to expect that my Question would be answered with Questions Nos. Q4 and Q12.
  Mr. Speaker: I do not think that that is a matter of order for the Chair.
  The Prime Minister: May I follow that point of order? I followed the normal procedure, which was established by my predecessor, that, when Questions appear late in the list, one does not couple them with earlier Questions, since that could lead to hon. Gentlemen putting down Questions at the last moment and still having them called.

  UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT (DEPARTMENTAL RESPONSIBILITIES)
  Mr. John Fraserasked the Prime Minister if he will transfer from the Department of Employment to the Department of Health and Social Security the work of paying unemployment benefit and collecting unemployment statistics.
  The Prime Minister: The Department of Health and Social Security computer at Reading has, since July, 1969, been making payments of unemployment benefit by Giro order to claimants in the Reading area, and now does this work for 19 employment exchanges in London. The case for extending these arrangements on a national basis is under consideration. There are no plans to transfer responsibility for collecting unemployment statistics from the Department of Employment.
  Mr. Fraser:Would the Prime Minister agree that, particularly with the staggering rise in unemployment under this Government, it could avoid a lot of wasteful duplication if the whole function were transferred throughout the country as

  1673
  quickly as possible, so that this Department can once again become a Department of Employment rather than of unemployment?
  The Prime Minister:As I have made plain in the answer, this very large area is being used at the moment in order to carry out these procedures, and we are examining whether they can properly be extended to the whole country. That relates to the question of the payments. There is no question of taking the statistical side from the Department of Employment.
  Mr. Thorpe:Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is less criticism of the method of payment of unemployment benefit and the gathering of statistics on unemployment than of the general level of unemployment? Can he not say whether he envisages that, in this year, the number of unemployed will go down, go up or remain static? What do the Government think will happen about unemployment?
  The Prime Minister:This Question is concerned with the collection of statistics, and the statistics will show.
  Mr. Alfred Morris:Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the increasingly heavy incidence of unemployment among employable disabled people is a matter for very serious concern? Will he agree to have a further look at this deeply personal human problem?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, indeed I will. There was a Question about this a few weeks ago, in answer to which I said that it was unfortunate that the percentage of disabled unemployed is higher than that of the general population, and that a review is being made of this problem to see whether anything further can be done to help.

  ITALY
  Mr. Martenasked the Prime Minister, what plans he now has to seek to pay an official visit to Italy.
  The Prime Minister:.I have at present no plans to do so, but I look forward to welcoming the Italian Prime Minister here from 27th to 29th June.
  Mr. Marten: In view of the somewhat decomposing nature of our negotiations
  1674
  to join the Common Market, would my right hon. Friend consider, when he meets the Prime Ministers of the Six, discussing with them at this stage alternative trading arrangements with our friends in Europe?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I see no point in doing that.
  Mr. Maclennan: Has the Prime Minister noted the successful initiative of the Italian Government last week at the E.E.C. Commission in accelerating the restructuring of agriculture in the Community? Has he noted the effect which this will have on diminishing that part of the contribution which this country might have to pay for sustaining the extremely high prices?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. I had noticed this further step in the general restructuring of agriculture throughout all the Community countries.
  Mr. Blaker: Will my right hon. Friend consider inviting my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) to visit Italy and to ask the Italians whether they think that membership of the Community has or has not benefited their prosperity?
  The Prime Minister: I hesitate about making such suggestions to my hon. Friend, because he may begin to doubt my motives.
  Mr. Peart: Will the right hon. Gentleman note what Mr. Mansholt said the other day about the common agricultural policy—that, probably, one day they will have to accept the British deficiency payments system?
  The Prime Minister: I have heard suggestions of this kind before—over the last 10 years, in fact—but at present it is the common agricultural policy which is pursued throughout the Community, and we have undertaken to carry out that policy if we became a member.

  INDUSTRIAL SELECTION SCHEME
  Mr. John Fraserasked the Prime Minister if he is satisfied with the coordination between the Secretary of State for the Environment and the Secretary of State for Employment in the operation of

  1675
  the Industrial Selection Scheme; and if he will make a statement.
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. There is already close co-ordination between the two Departments and the local authorities concerned.
  Mr. Fraser: Is the Prime Minister aware that there is a good deal of dissatisfaction with the scheme, since the decline in employment of women, and in unskilled occupations and the general range of employment, because of general unemployment, has led to people in the worst kind of housing conditions in places like London finding great difficulty in getting into the new towns? Would he set up an inquiry to look thoroughly at this scheme and at the range of employment and job opportunity which it provides?
  The Prime Minister: I know that there are difficulties in operating this scheme so that it can be used to provide housing and jobs for people who are in need of both. If the hon. Gentleman has any specific examples of these difficulties, I should be glad to receive them and then to have them inquired into, in the light of which I would consider asking my right hon. Friend to carry out a complete review.

  BROADCASTING (IMPARTIALITY)
  Mr. Ian Lloydasked the Prime Minister whether he will seek powers to extend the scope of the Parliamentary Commissioner to include complaints against the impartiality of radio and television broadcasting companies, on the reference of such complaints to the Commissioner by a Member of Parliament.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. It would be inappropriate for the Commissioner to be asked to investigate complaints in a field for which Ministers are not responsible.
  Mr. Lloyd: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that something should be done about a situation in which the most powerful of the media enjoys what appears to be an exemption from the constraints which must be accepted by its rivals? Is he aware, for example,
  1676
  that had Captain Brown been libelled in a television programme, he would have had the greatest difficulty even to get a transcript of what had been said?
  The Prime Minister: Official machinery for dealing with these matters has been set up. There is the Advisory Council to the B.B.C., and the Television Act, which puts certain constraints on the Independent Television Authority. I should not like to comment off the cuff on the legal position in respect of slander or on the law generally.
  The question of getting transcripts is, again, not a matter for Ministerial responsibility. It must be the decision of the authorities concerned. But I should have thought that most hon. Members would think that there was an obligation on the Authority and the Corporation to provide transcripts when asked for.
  Mr. Hugh Jenkins: While many of us suport the view that the broadcasting authorities should provide transcripts upon reasonable request, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that if, in any general examination of the media, including the Press, the question of bias were to arise, the bias would be shown to be against this side of the House and heavily in favour of the Tory Party?
  The Prime Minister: Varying opinions are held on that point.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
Mr. Harold Wilson: On a point of order. I thought it right not to raise this point while the Prime Minister was answering Questions, although it was raised in the form of a point of order by my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson) and the Prime Minister replied to it before answering Question No.6.
In that reply the right hon. Gentleman referred to a practice which, he said, had been instituted by me and which he felt was not unfair. In other words, I felt, and the right hon. Gentleman has felt, it right not to group questions which have been tabled very late as that might preclude other hon. Members with Questions down on the Order Paper from having their Questions reached.

1677
In the case to which my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham referred, my hon. Friend suggested that the reason why his Question appeared so low in the list of Questions to the Prime Minister was because it had been tabled earlier, so that it had a much lower number—that might have justified it being grouped —but that then, at the request of the right hon. Gentleman, it was removed and put back again, whereupon it had a much higher number. Will the Prime Minister inquire into the circumstances of this case and inform my hon. Friend of the result?
The Prime Minister: I will certainly look into the matter. I was not aware that the Question was changed at our request. Nor did I understand the hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson) to say that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes he did."] In any event, I will have the matter looked into and see if that was, in fact, what happened.
Mr. Atkinson: Further to the point of order raised by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, I may have misled the House. I have been informed that the original Question was in almost identical wording, apart from the fact that it included the name of Mr. Batty, who is Managing Director of the Ford Motor Company. That name has been taken out of the Question, and it is without the name that the Question was returned to the Order Paper. [Interruption.] If hon. Gentlemen opposite do not know, Mr. Batty is, as I said, Managing Director of Ford.
I mention this point only to show that there was a slight change from the original Question. Nevertheless, the principle remains the same. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] The original Question, as published, was near the top of the list of Questions to the Prime Minister. It was certainly among the first three. It went for further consideration—to see whether it was eligible—and when it returned to the Order Paper it appeared as Question No. 17.
Mr. Speaker: The Prime Minister has said that he will look into the matter. It may be a question of principle, but it is not a question of principle for the Chair.

HOUSE OF COMMONS CATERING
Mr. Lipton(by Private Notice) asked the Lord President of the Council why the firm of J. Lyons Ltd. is taking over the Refreshment Department, and if he will make a statement.
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw): Messrs. J. Lyons Ltd. is not taking over the Refreshment Department, but I understand that Versa-Serve Ltd., a subsidiary of J. Lyons, has been asked to make an investigation of the Refreshment Department's methods of administration, and to advise the Catering Sub-Committee.
Mr. Lipton: Is it not a gross contempt of this House that a decision of this kind should have been taken without any consultation having taken place with hon. Members who are entitled to be consulted? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that for the hon. Member for Gosport and Fareham (Dr. Bennett) to have made a statement on the subject on "The World at One" today thereby added to the contempt with which the House of Commons is being treated?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are entitled to know what effect this decision will have on, for example, the staff of the Refreshment Department, on the prices that are likely to be charged, and on many other matters which must be discussed by this House before even a decision to invite anybody to investigate the affairs of the Refreshment Department is taken?
Mr. Whitelaw: I do not think that that is exactly the position. After all, this House has given the Catering Sub-Committee the task of running the catering in the House. I wish to make it absolutely clear that whatever arrangements the Sub-Committee makes, remembering that it is perfectly entitled to make them, complete control will remain in the hands of the Sub-Committee.
Mr. Peart: I hope the Lord President will appreciate, before any major change is made in catering arrangements or management, that the Services Committee has the final authority. Furthermore,

1679
there must finally be a decision by the House, not by a little Sub-Committee.
Mr. Whitelaw: A similar arrangement was made under the Labour Government by the then Chairman of the Catering Sub-Committee without even referring it —[Interruption.]—when Mr. Robert Maxwell invited Messrs. Fortes to advise the Sub-Committee.
Mr. Peart: The right hon. Gentleman misunderstood my question. I was saying that before any major decision is taken about changing the system it must be a matter for the House as well as for the Services Committee.
Mr. Whitelaw: I am sorry if I misunderstood the right hon. Gentleman; if I did, I apologise. I made it clear earlier that complete control will remain in the hands of the Catering Sub-Committee and that no such change as has been suggested is taking place.
Mr. Jopling: Would my right hon. Friend agree that one reason why the Catering Department seems to be in permanent financial difficulty is because the facilities and staff are not used during the parliamentary recesses? Will he suggest to the firm carrying out this investigation that it should look at the possibility of the facilities being used by the general public when the House is not sitting?
Mr. Whitelaw: I should make it perfectly clear that these matters are entirely the concern of the Catering Sub-Committee, which has autonomy in this sphere. I am sure that the Sub-Committee will consider that suggestion. As I said, this and other matters are for it and not for me.
Mr. C. Pannell: Will the right hon. Gentleman take a cool hard look not only at the present problem but at the continuing one which has existed in the 22 years that I have been here? [Laughter] I must ask the right hon. Gentleman to discipline his hon. Friends—
Sir G. Nabarro: Oh dear!
Mr. Pannell: —and particularly the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro).
Will the Leader of the House bear in mind that no catering department can
1680
make a profit when its activities are based on one or two meals at odd times during the day or night; also that every factory canteen is subsidised? Above all, will he bear in mind that the catering facilities for hon. Members which must be provided at odd times, frequently throughout the 24 hours, are part of the services of the House? Is he aware that in the past the Catering Department has suffered not from too few consultants but from far too many? Such an investigation was made under Mr. Robert Maxwell without the position being advanced. I urge the right hon. Gentleman to look at this matter in a House of Commons context, away from the control of the Treasury.
Mr. Whitelaw: I have noted the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman and I appreciate that he has taken a considerable interest in these matters. Detailed questions concerning the running of the catering facilities in the House are completely in the hands of the Catering Sub-Committee. This has been laid down. Naturally the Sub-Committee reports to the Services Committee, of which I am Chairman, on matters of the broadest policy. The Services Committee can certainly consider these matters, though not on points of detail. I am sure that the right hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) appreciates and accepts that.
Sir R. Cary: Surely catering in the House of Commons is a domestic matter for Members of the House and it would be wrong to throw it open to the public?
Mr. Whitelaw: I have made it absolutely clear, and I would like to make it abundantly clear—to the House, to our staff, to whom we are considerably indebted, and to everyone else—that complete control over catering will remain in the hands of the Catering Sub-Committee.
Mr. David Steel: The Lord President has correctly said that this is not the first time that professional consultants have been called in. May I suggest to him, with all due respect to those of our colleagues who work hard on the Catering Sub-Committee, that perhaps the time has come to consider the philosophy of hiving off in this connection and whether it would not be a good idea to consider placing a contract with outside caterers?
Hon. Members: No.
Mr. Whitelaw: It seems that this is a matter of considerable controversy, but I note what the hon. Gentleman says.
Mr. Rost: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a good deal of uncertainty and anxiety amongst the staff following a meeting which apparently took place last night at which they were informed that the Catering Manager had been dismissed and that Joe Lyons was taking over? Can we have an assurance that nothing will be done which will undermine the morale of the staff, particularly in view of the tremendously hard work they put in and the loyalty which they displayed in recent weeks?
Mr. Whitelaw: If anybody will pay attention to my remarks, I must repeat them. Complete control will remain in the hands of the Catering Sub-Committee and I hope that that message will get broadcast as widely as it can be throughout all the quarters concerned.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Harold Wilson: May I ask the Leader of the House if he will state the business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 5TH APRIL—Conclusion of the debate on the Budget Statement.
Motions on the Motor Vehicles (Speed Limits on Motorways) and (Variation of Speed Limits) Regulations, and on the Hovercraft (Civil Liability) Order.
TUESDAY, 6TH APRIL—AS already announced there will be a debate on Northern Ireland, which will arise on a Motion for the Adjournment of the House.
Motions on the Post Office (Borrowing Powers) Order and on the Northern Ireland Loans (Increase of Limit) Order.
WEDNESDAY, 7TH APRIL—Remaining stages of the Rating Bill, the Courts Bill [Lords], the Animals Bill [Lords] and of the Mines Management Bill [Lords].
Consideration of Lords Amendments to the Oil in Navigable Waters Bill.
Motions on Members' pensions, on travel warrants and on procedural questions.
THURSDAY, 8TH APRIL—The House will meet at 11 a.m., take Questions until 12 noon, and adjourn at 5 p.m. until Monday, 19th April.
Mr. Harold Wilson: The Leader of the House will recall that on Monday the Foreign Secretary inevitably could make only an interim statement on Pakistan and undertook to report to the House again as soon as he could. Will the Leader of the House draw to the attention of the Foreign Secretary the need for a further statement on Pakistan in the course of next week?
Second, although I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that the House has been very restrained in not pressing for too much information or debate on the Rolls-Royce question while the negotiations are proceeding, does he expect that it will be possible to make any statement on the negotiations next week? Whatever the answer is, we shall understand. Does the right hon. Gentleman recall his undertaking that when the negotiations are over there will be a very full White Paper with all the information not only on the negotiations but on all the aspects of the decisions taken by the Government?
Mr. Whitelaw: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is most anxious to keep the House fully informed about Pakistan and will do so. As to the point the right hon. Gentleman makes about the RB211, I cannot say whether the negotiations will be at a stage when a statement should be made next week. I note what the right hon. Gentleman says and fully stand by my previous assurances.
Mr. Hastings: Do the Government expect to be able to make a statement on the third London airport before or after the Easter Recess?
Mr. Whitelaw: I cannot be certain at this stage when such a statement will be made.
Mrs. Renée Short: The Leader of the House has said nothing about the business for the week after the recess. Will he at the earliest possible moment allow the House to discuss the position of the construction industry and the housing situation generally, which is deteriorating month by month?
Mr. Whitelaw: I hope to make a business statement next Wednesday informing the House about the business for the week after we return from the Easter Recess. On the second point, I cannot foresee at this stage time for a debate such as that which the hon. Lady mentions.
Mr. Crouch: Can my right hon. Friend assure the House that the first intimation of the decision concerning the siting of the third London airport will be made to the House and not leaked to the Press?
Mr. Whitelaw: As far as it lies in my power to ensure any such thing, I can give that assurance, but it does not always seem to lie in my power.
Sir G. de Freitas: Is the Leader of the House aware that the Report of the Environmental Commission has been very widely regarded as important and that at Question Time yesterday the Minister said to me that he would welcome a debate? In these circumstances, will the Leader of the House arrange to please his right hon. Friend and many hon. Members by arranging a debate as soon as we return?
Mr. Whitelaw: I note the importance of the subject and I recognise what my right hon. Friend has said. I cannot foresee immediate opportunity for such a debate in Government time. There are many other ways in which such a debate could arise.
Mr. Burden: My right hon. Friend has been unable to foresee for a long time when it will be possible to have a debate on the Report of the Litttlewood Committee. I hope that today he can be a little more promising about the future than he has been in the past.
Mr. Whitelaw: I regret to say that I am still unable to foresee that time.
Mr. Blenkinsop: Can the Leader of the House tell us at last when we are to have the Second Reading of the Shipbuilding Industry Bill? We in the shipbuilding areas are getting very anxious about the future of the Bill.
Mr. Whitelaw: I think I may be able to satisfy the hon. Gentleman next Wednesday.
Mr. Jeffrey Archer: Will my right hon. Friend be kind enough to look into the
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fact that no members of the queuing public were able to listen to the Budget? Would it not be fair for a small section of the Gallery to be reserved so that those who are willing to queue for hours are able to listen to the Budget?
Mr. Whitelaw: This is certainly a matter that can be considered. I will look into it.
Mr. Faulds: Charge them 8 per cent.
Mr. Shore: I thank the Leader of the House for what he has said already about a statement on Pakistan next week. Will he ask the Foreign Secretary to make as full a statement as possible? There is great anxiety, there are ugly rumours, and there is a virtually total Press blackout. Therefore, we would greatly appreciate a full statement.
Mr. Whitelaw: I know that my right hon. Friend will be particularly anxious to give the fullest statement that he can with the information that is available to us. The right hon. Gentleman will be the first to appreciate that getting information is a very difficult matter.
Dame Irene Ward: Is my right hon. Friend aware how delighted I am about the Shipbuilding Industry Bill? As I have asked three weeks running for information but refrained from asking today because I thought that we had come to an arrangement, why should the announcement be made to a member of the Opposition, though I am delighted to have got the information? Would it not have been fair that I should have been given this information as I have asked so often?
Mr. Whitelaw: I did not make any announcement to the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Blenkinsop). All I said was that I hoped that I might be able to satisfy him next Wednesday. I hope that I might be able to satisfy my hon. Friend next Wednesday as well.
Mr. Denis Howell: Has the attention of the Leader of the House been drawn to the Written Answer by the Secretary of State for Education and Science concerning the change of direction of the youth service and the rejection of the Report "Youth and Community in the Seventies", which was made by a Committee of which I was Chairman and the acceptance of which I announced on behalf of the then Government?

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As this has been done without any consultation with the Youth Service Council and as it flies in the face of the whole training of youth leaders and is a serious matter, will the Leader of the House ensure that important Questions on policy like this are answered in the House and not by Written Answer: and will he arrange for an early debate?
Mr. Whitelaw: As to how various statements are made, I will look into this matter and consult my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science about it.
On the question of statements in the House, I believe that you, Mr. Speaker, have felt, and I am certainly very sensitive to the point, that too much time must not be taken up with statements in the House which interfere with the normal business of the House. It has been difficult for all Governments to achieve the right balance between what is answered by means of oral statement and what is answered by means of Written Answer. I will always try to preserve the right balance.
Sir G. Nabarro: My right hon. Friend will recall that for more than four months now he has promised a statement on the review bodies concerning the salaries and conditions of employment of the higher echelons of the public service, including Ministers and Members of Parliament. Is it not reasonable to expect that a statement will be made before Easter, including the terms of reference and scope of operations of such review bodies, and whether Members of Parliament may give evidence before them?
Mr. Whitelaw: There may well be an announcement next week on those matters. I cannot go so far as to suggest that it will include exactly the terms of reference for any review body, because I have always undertaken that this would be done only after consultation through the usual channels and with right hon. and hon. Members, and I should, naturally, wish to abide by that undertaking.
Mr. Russell Kerr: In view of the recent publication of the Treasury's highly favourable comments on the Report of the Select Committee on Nationalised Indus-
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tries which investigated the Bank of England, may we now hope to have time in the House for a debate on that history-making Report?
Mr. Whitelaw: I have said before, and right hon. and hon. Members on both sides have taken the same view, that some Reports rely for their value on being debated and others have great value without debate. I am not quite sure where this one falls, because I accept that the publication and acceptance of it has had considerable value.
Mr. Callaghan: There is one important legislative gap which the Government have not yet filled, and I should like to know why we have been disappointed again this week. When are we to have the Bill to sell off the State breweries and bring about the beneficial results of cheaper beer for all?
Mr. Whitelaw: The right hon. Gentleman and I are both interested in this matter. I think that I may be able to satisfy both him and myself next week.
Mr. Whitehead: When may we expect a full debate on the Government's White Paper on commercial radio?
Mr. Whitelaw: I could not offer time at an early date for such a debate.
Dr. Gilbert: Can the Leader of the House give an assurance that we shall have a debate, not later than the Summer Recess, on the important Crowther Commission Report on credit, and, bearing in mind the Chancellor's remarks in his Budget Statement, will not the Leader of the House agree that the case for a Select Committee on taxation is now almost unanswerable?
Mr. Whitelaw: On the last point, no, I should not go as far as that. On the first point, I shall not give a categorical assurance because I am always anxious, whenever I give an assurance, to be absolutely certain that it will be fulfilled. However, I note the importance of such a debate. We shall see how we get on.
Mr. James Johnson: Will the Leader of the House give an undertaking that, perhaps next week, we shall have a statement about the financing of the Humber bridge? Is he aware that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State

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for the Environment met the Humber Board at least six or seven weeks ago. Questions have been put down since by hon. Members on both sides, and still we have no satisfaction? Will the Leader of the House look into it?
Mr. Whitelaw: I shall draw the hon. Gentleman's remarks to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, and I shall find out what the position is.
Mr. Maclennan: Is the Leader of the House aware of the intolerable situation which has arisen due to the Government's failure to bring forward a scheme to implement their decisison, announced in October, to cut grants for fishing vessels by 25 per cent.? Is he aware that, because that scheme had to be withdrawn, people whose applications have been in the pipeline, in some cases for many months, have had no money whatever? What does the right hon. Gentleman propose to do about it, and why have we had no announcement that the scheme is to be reintroduced immediately?
Mr. Whitelaw: As I have said in the past, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture will let the House know what he proposes to do about this scheme as soon as he can.
Mr. Faulds: Will the Leader of the House contemplate the possibility of satisfying me by allowing the House to debate as soon as possible after we reassemble—a debate is long overdue—the iniquitous idea of imposing charges for entry to museums and art galleries?
Mr. Whitelaw: I shall contemplate any possibility, but I cannot say when an announcement will be made about that or when such a debate will take place.
Mr. Onslow: When are we to have an opportunity to debate the remaining Service Estimates?
Mr. Whitelaw: Immediately after Easter.
Mr. Clinton Davis: When will the House have an opportunity to debate the Report of the Francis Committee? Is he aware that that Report has been in his right hon. Friend's hands for a considerable time?
Mr. Whitelaw: I have nothing to add this week to what I said in answer to various questions last week.

DEBATES (SPEECHES)
Mr. William Hamilton: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I pursue with you the point of order which I raised with Mr. Deputy Speaker last night? You will, perhaps, be aware that Mr. Deputy Speaker called two Conservative backbench Members in succession during the Budget debate yesterday, an event which has not happened, in my knowledge, for very many years. Mr. Deputy Speaker subsequently indicated to me that he did this on your instruction, Mr. Speaker, and I wondered on what basis that decision was made.
I have tried to calculate as accurately as I can, and I find that Labour back benchers took 85 minutes of the debate yesterday and Conservative back benchers 145 minutes. Without reflecting on the Chair in any way, I think it incumbent upon the Chair to maintain a balance in the debate, and perhaps it may be in your mind, Mr. Speaker, to have the same kind of balance in favour of this side either today or on Monday.
Mr. Speaker: It is well established that the discretion of the Chair is unfettered and must not be discussed. Whether Mr. Deputy Speaker acted on my instructions is a matter on which I cannot enlighten the hon. Gentleman. These matters must not be discussed. One must bear in mind all the factors, and I promise that the Chair will try to do that.

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  WAYS AND MEANS
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [30th March],
  WAYS AND MEANS

    AMENDMENT OF THE LAW
    That it is expedient to amend the law with respect to the National Debt and the public revenue and to make further provision in connection with finance; but—

    (1) this resolution shall not authorise the making of amendments of the enactments relating to purchase tax, other than amendments about the remission of tax on exported vehicles, and other than amendments making the same provision for chargeable goods of whatever description, or for all goods to which any of the several rates of tax at present applies; and

    (2) neither this resolution nor any resolution relating to selective employment tax shall authorise the making of amendments of the enactments relating to selective employment tax so as to give relief from tax—

    (a) by way of exemption from, or a reduction in the rate of, tax except in respect of all persons of the same descriptions relevant for determining the rate of the employer's flat-rate contribution with which the tax is combined, whether that contribution is under the National Insurance Acts or under the corresponding enactments in Northern Ireland; or

    (b) by way of providing for payments to employers of an amount equal to the whole or a specified part of the tax paid if the proposed provision—

    (i) is in respect of employers in, or at establishments in, part only of Great Britain; or

    (ii) extends to employers in, or at establishments in, Northern Ireland; or

    (iii) is in respect of all persons in any particular description of employment in all parts of Great Britain, and relief in respect of the whole of the tax paid could be given in respect of that description of employment by an order under section 9(1)(a) of the Selective Employment Payments Act 1966 adding that description of employment to the employments to which section 1 or 2 of that Act applies; or

    (c) by adding or removing any employer to or from the employers to whom section 3 of that Act applies, or

    (d) by amending the provisions of Schedule 1 or Schedule 2 to that Act.

    Question again proposed

BUDGET RESOLUTIONS AND ECONOMIC SITUATION
3.57 p.m.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Patrick Jenkin): I shall devote most of my time to looking at some of the tax proposals, both the longer-term and the more immediate changes, which my right hon. Friend announced on Tuesday, and I shall have a few comments to make on the speech we heard yesterday from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins), but I think that the House will expect me first to make a brief reference to the announcement about Bank Rate made earlier today. My hon. Friend the Minister of State will deal with monetary policy generally later this evening.
The reduction in Bank Rate from 7 per cent. to 6 per cent. has been made following further falls in overseas rates just recently. The main reason why a reduction in Bank Rate is appropriate at this moment is the international situation and the fact that if we had maintained our rate unchanged, following the cut in the West German bank rate in particular, the inflow of funds might well have increased embarrassingly.
The Bank of England has, of course, kept in touch with other central banks on these matters recently, and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, before making his Budget Statement, took account of the prospect of a reduction in Bank Rate in harmony with reductions in other countries. The cut announced today is entirely consistent with the measures he announced in his Budget Statement.
I come now to some of the details in the Budget Statement. My right hon. Friend told the House that the Government were proposing to introduce measures to counter the loss of tax due to the growth of individual sub-contracting in the building industry. I say at once that it has for long been a feature of the construction industry for much specialised work to be sub-contracted. Indeed, there are great virtues in that system. Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of such specialist sub-contractors are perfectly respectable and responsible

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business men who pay their taxes fully and promptly.
In recent years, however, due, I may say, as much to the selective employment tax as to any other reason, a practice has grown up whereby people who would normally be employees have called themselves sub-contractors.
Mr. Eric S. Heifer: To be absolutely fair, would the hon. Gentleman not agree that there has been an acceleration due to the selective employment tax but that this process began long before selective employment tax was ever thought of?
Mr. Jenkin: In view of the hon. Gentleman's great knowledge of the industry, I accept that from him. But he will know that in addition to the self-employed bricklayers and self-employed plasterers, with whom we have been familiar, we now find ourselves having to cope with self-employed barrow pushers and self-employed hod carriers, and this is ridiculous. By becoming self-employed they have taken themselves outside the ambit of P.A.Y.E., and they draw their money without deduction of tax. In theory, they are liable to Schedule D tax. In practice, there are tens of thousands with whom the Inland Revenue never succeed in catching up. They change their jobs, they change their addresses, and they even change their names; they disappear.
If the Revenue ever succeed in catching up with them, the so-called subcontractor is without means and the tax is lost for ever. We estimate the annual loss at about £10 million. The consequences of this bogus self-employment, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree, go much wider than the loss of income tax. We have all heard of the "lump" and the great harm done to industrial relations. There are gaps in the insurance cover for accidents on site. Because national insurance contributions, if paid at all, are paid at the Class II rate, the man ceases to be eligible for unemployment benefit, earnings related sickness benefit, graduated retirement benefit and industrial injury benefit.
The House will remember that in 1968 the Phelps Brown Committee recommended a comprehensive register of genuine sub-contractors with everybody else to be treated as employees. Our pre-
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decessors recognised that this was not really practicable in that form, and they proposed their own remedy. This involved not only a register of genuine subcontractors, but also, if a main contractor engaged an unregistered sub-contractor, the payment of a levy. This was intended to cover such things as S.E.T., National Insurance and so on. In addition, income tax would be deducted and accounted for to the tax collector.
We have come to the conclusion that this was an unnecessarily cumbersome procedure and that the main objectives can be achieved if effective steps are taken to prevent the income tax evasion. What we propose is that, subject to exceptions—and the exceptions are very important—any building contractor who makes a payment to an individual for sub-contracted work must deduct from that payment on account of income tax a sum equal to 30 per cent. of the payment and must pay that sum to the collector of taxes. If the recipient then makes a proper tax return, the tax deducted will be credited to his liability and any excess will be repaid. In order to protect the Revenue, the rate of 30 per cent. is designedly somewhat in excess of the ultimate liability.
The most important exception is that a sub-contractor who satisfies his tax inspector that he has an established business and a satisfactory record as a taxpayer will be able to continue exactly as at present. He will be able to obtain a certificate of exemption from the inspector, which will entitle him to be paid his contract moneys gross. Further, the deduction procedure will not apply to companies—that is to say, where the sub-contractor is a company—nor will it apply to payments made for building materials supplied by the sub-contractor.
In other words, instead of a comprehensive register, which the previous Government proposed should be compiled and maintained by the then Minister of Public Building and Works, all we believe to be necessary is the certificate of exemption provided by the tax inspector to respectable and responsible sub-contractors.
The administrative burden on the main contractor will be minimal; indeed, any main contractor who wishes to eliminate the burden altogether only needs to

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engage sub-contractors who can produce a certificate. If he engages a non-certificated sub-contractor, the tax deductions to be made will be very much simpler than P.A.Y.E., and they will be at a flat rate. There will be no code numbers, no cumulation, no repayments and no tax tables—except that we may provide him with a simple 30 per cent. ready reckoner. The new arrangements will apply to payments made on or after 6th April, 1972.
Inevitably, time is needed, not only to pass the legislation but to make the regulations and provide exemption certificates. Though some additional staff will be needed, these will, in part, be offset by reductions in the staff at present engaged in trying to collect Schedule D tax from those elusive, peripatetic, self-employed hod carriers. We believe that in time this system will not only largely prevent tax loss but will also solve a problem which I know has been causing a great deal of concern throughout the industry.
Sir Gerald Nabarro: Why is my hon. Friend straining at the gnat and swallowing the elephant? I congratulate him on ending the particular abuse in this industry, but why not tackle the whole problem and amalgamate Schedule D with Schedule E, so that everybody has the same allowances, provisions and conditions, which would be fair to all employed persons, instead of dealing with the building industry alone?
Mr. Jenkin: I am sure that my hon. Friend recognises that we are dealing primarily with the evasion of tax, and it is the escape from the P.A.Y.E. system which has given rise to the particular problem against which we are intending to legislate. It would be quite impracticable for Schedule D taxpayers to be taxed with anything like the P.A.Y.E. system, which is why we think our proposals are right for this industry. I thought that my hon. Friend would refer to other industries. All we can say is that the loss of tax from this cause is overwhelmingly confined to the construction industry. We are always pursuing the evasion elsewhere, where it happens.
Mr. A. P. Costain: I congratulate my hon. Friend on these proposals. They are the lines which we took when we opposed the ridiculous Measure introduced by the previous Government. Would my hon. Friend bear in mind that in certain villages there are probably one-man maintenance contractors who are sometimes called sub-contractors or ordinary contractors, and ensure that the same provisions apply in those cases?
Mr. Jenkin: I would have little doubt that the persons to whom my hon. Friend refers would certainly be able to satisfy the tax inspector and obtain a certificate of exemption. In those cases, no change is made in the manner in which they are paid.
Another matter which has been engaging my attention is the new proposals which my right hon. Friend intends for occupational pension schemes. The House will remember that last year Mr. Iain Macleod gave a firm undertaking that the pension Clauses in last year's Finance Bill would be reviewed should we find ourselves in Government. This we have done. Apart from consultations by the Inland Revenue during last summer and autumn, I have seen a number of the organisations representing occupational pension interests. Our predecessors had, in our view quite rightly, decided to introduce a single, new tax code of reliefs for occupational pension schemes to replace the mixture of different reliefs—many of them depending on no more than historical accident—which have existed hitherto. The introduction of the new code was originally intended to coincide with the start of the reconstructed State superannuation scheme associated with the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Coventry, East (Mr. Crossman, and, as originally drawn, the tax provisions imposed limitations on occupational pensions which that scheme would necessarily have implied. The Crossman Bill fell with the General Election, and, mercifully, it has vanished into limbo.
As the House knows, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services is currently working on a much simpler reconstruction of National Insurance. Our philosophy is based firmly on

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the view that it is to the occupational pension schemes that increasingly people should look for their earnings-related pension provision. Accordingly, it has been our firm resolve, that the proposed new tax code should demonstrate clearly and unequivocally our determination that occupational pension schemes shall be given every possible encouragement to spread their net very widely and to provide adequate benefits, not only for employees but also for their dependants.
We have taken the view that, desirable though the rationalisation of the pre-1970 codes may be, it could prejudice this wider objective if we were to insist on all schemes having to conform without a longish transitional period. Although the 1970 code gave full protection for accrued rights, we have taken the view that this does not go far enough. Accordingly, as my right hon. Friend announced, we do not propose that it should be compulsory to conform to the new code until 1980. This longer transitional period has been widely welcomed by the pensions interests and represents a significant move to meet the representations which were made to us.
Sir Brandon Rhys Williams: Are we to understand that preservation of pension rights will not become obligatory until 1980?
Mr. Jenkin: I did not imply anything like that. The problem of preservation will be dealt with eventually in the Bill to be introduced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services. It is not covered in the Finance Bill legislation.
The second point was that the limits on the capital sums payable on death in service imposed by the 1970 Act were unacceptable. A lump sum equal to two years' salary may be totally inadequate in certain unfortunate circumstances. We therefore propose that the limit should be four years' salary. This will be exclusive not only of pensions paid to widows or dependants but of any return of contributions paid by the deceased employee.
Mr. John Roper: Does this apply to existing members of the Federated Superannuation System for Universities, or merely those members joining after this date?
Mr. Jenkin: I shall come to the F.S.S.U. in a moment, but I can say that it will apply to existing members after the date for conformity.
With the longer transitional period, it is very important that nothing should discourage firms which wish to take advantage of the new code, which in some respects is more beneficial than the old, from doing so. For that reason we considered it important that the water on both sides of the dam should be approximately level; there should be no inherent disincentives to change from the old to the new. I am sure that the House will think that that is sensible. Accordingly, provisions for taxing the refunds of contributions have been modified. Instead of the tax being increased from a quarter to half the standard rate, as proposed by our predecessors, the rate of tax on refunded contributions will from 6th April this year be 10 per cent. of the gross refund. whether the scheme has been approved under the old or the new code.
We have taken the point that some schemes will have difficulties of adjustment to the new code because of their cumbrous amendment procedure. The Finance Bill will provide for applications to be made to the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies to approve amendments to existing schemes. That is why there is the Money Resolution dealing with the fees to be charged by the Registrar in respect of this function.
I recognise—here I come to the point raised by the hon. Member for Farnworth (Mr. Roper)—that nothing we did in this field could please everyone. It became clear in our consultations that no proposals which involved, however far ahead, the compulsory application of a single code would satisfy, for instance, the F.S.S.U. scheme and a few others like it. No doubt we can explore this matter more fully when the Bill comes before the House, but I would say at this stage that I think that when existing members of the F.S.S.U. scheme appreciate not only how far their accrued existing rights are fully protected but also the substantial alleviation afforded by the 10-year transitional period, from 1970, they will recognise that we have gone a very long way to meet their arguments.

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I have three short points on the capital gains tax changes. The abolition of the short-term tax is a welcome simplification, achieved at negligible cost. In future the long-term tax will apply to all chargeable gains of individuals. However, I should like to make it clear that short-term losses which have arisen up to 5th April this year, and which it has not been possible to allow by that date, will be available for carrying forward against capital gains in subsequent years.
The £500 disposals exemption is another change which will save a great deal of time and effort on the part of the Inland Revenue and taxpayers and their advisers, again at small cost. I must make it clear that it is based on total disposals of under £500 in the year, not, as I think one or two hon. Members suggested yesterday, gains of less than £500. There was some misunderstanding about this. The exemption will include a marginal provision under which in cases where the disposal proceeds exceed £500 the capital gains tax will not exceed one half of the excess.
Now a word about the ending of the deemed disposal rule on death. I recognise that, as the right hon. Member for Stechford suggested, in theory there could be a possible tendency towards what he called "locking in" for securities. But there are many other factors which affect the investment decisions of elderly people. We do not expect that the tendency will have any serious effect on markets generally.
We have been pressed over the past few months to provide a taper for capital gains tax, to prevent it being a tax on inflation. I do not think that it has been generally appreciated that ending the deemed disposal on death goes part of the way to meet that case, for when an asset which has increased in value forms part of the estate of a man who dies estate duty will be paid on the current market value of the asset, including the gain. Accordingly, the executors will take the asset at that current market value, and any subsequent appreciation for capital gains tax purposes will run from the date of the death. In that way we can claim to have met at least in part the criticism of the tax which has been widely voiced.
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I come now to two of our three major reforms, the personal tax reform and corporation tax. My hon. Friend the Minister of State will deal with V.A.T. when he winds up.
As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has announced, this year's Finance Bill will contain the legislation to implement his proposals to replace income tax and surtax with a new graduated system of personal taxation. We shall have ample opportunity to debate the details of this momentous reform during the passage of the Bill. I do not need to say much this afternoon in amplification of my right hon. Friend's Budget Statement, but perhaps a few comments would not be out of place.
First, although the reform will not come into force until 1973 it is important that we legislate this year. The details of the reform must be settled so that planning for unification can start early next year. Further, we expect the legislation for corporation tax reform to be in next year's Finance Bill. Many hon. Members will agree that experience has shown that it is unwise to try to include two major reforms in one single Finance Bill. Much of the difficulty occasioned by the 1965 Bill came about because the Labour Government were determined to push through both capital gains tax and corporation tax in the same Bill.
Unification will bring significant benefits to both taxpayers and the Inland Revenue. It is a major simplification, with one tax instead of two. The merging of the income tax and surtax rules into a single code will involve a great deal of detailed legislation, and we must wait for the Bill and the White Paper which will accompany it. However, I can say that for the most part the substance of the existing rules will be retained. For instance, personal and charitable covenants will attract tax relief at the basic rate, but not at the higher rates. Building society interest will continue to be paid free of tax, but will be grossed up to determine liability to the higher rates. Life assurance relief will be simplified. Instead of relief being at two-fifths the standard rate on qualifying premiums, relief will be given at half the basic rate—15 per cent., if we take the provisional 30 per cent. as the basic rate.

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In some cases, however, the income tax rules will run the whole way up the scale. For example, interest on National Savings Bank and Trustee Savings Bank ordinary accounts is now free of income tax up to the new figure of £21 a year. After unification, this relief will run for the higher rates as well, providing a small extra attraction for savings. Claw-back, too, will run all the way up the scale in the new system. This will reduce the level at which it will pay people not to take the family allowance.
As well as simplification and simpler graduation, unified tax will have the great advantage that the nominal rate of tax that taxpayers pay will be the true rate they bear. I do not know how many times in the past six years I have heard hon. Members from both sides of the House complain of the widespread misunderstanding about the marginal rate of tax on wages and salaries. Unlike our predecessors, we have not been content to bewail the absurdity of the existing system. We shall put it right.
This brings me to a point which has been warmly welcomed, at least from this side of the House.
Mr. Dick Taverne: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it was under the previous Administration that the first studies were initiated into amalgamating income tax and surtax, which make this change possible?
Mr. Jenkin: I was delighted to find that the Inland Revenue was well aware of the proposals that we had and the changes we were going to make. But I must say that the right hon. Member for Stechford was pretty discouraging about the administrative problems of the change-over in his Budget Statement last year.
Mr. Taverne: Will the hon. Gentleman please correct this? He is suggesting that my right hon. Friend was discouraging about something he made possible—namely the amalgamation of income tax and surtax. Will he not be more magnanimous rather than petty and party political and agree that the study for the amalgamation of income tax and surtax was started under the last Government?
Mr. Jenkin: All I can say to the hon. and learned Gentleman is that he will
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find is difficult to recognise in many of the features of our scheme anything that he had in mind before the General Election.
Mr. Douglas Houghton: Before the distribution of prizes finishes, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that I put up a scheme for this amalgamation to the Radcliffe Commission in 1953?
Mr. Jenkin: The right hon. Gentleman is taking his prize now, and we acknowledge that. I am coming to him in a moment.
I was trying to deal with the proposal that the first slice of investment income will not be liable to the investment income surcharge, but will be taxed on the same basis as earned income. This represents perhaps the most important single new incentive to savings that any Government have introduced for decades. Until now, with only minor exceptions, savings income, however small, if subject to tax has been taxed at the standard rate—which is 41¼ per cent. this year and will be 38¾ per cent. next year. But from 1973–74, the first slice of taxable savings income will normally bear tax at the basic rate fixed provisionally at 30 per cent. In addition to encouraging savings, it will help the retired living on savings and such small but disadvantaged groups as divorced and separated wives whose maintenance payments are classed as investment income now.
Mr. Joel Barnett: The hon. Gentleman refers to the "first slice". It is a meaningless term. What does he mean?
Mr. Jenkin: My right hon. Friend made it clear that we could not even decide the starting point for investment income surcharge or higher rates until 1973. I must ask the hon. Gentleman to contain himself with patience. No decisions have been or could have been taken on these matters yet.
Miss J. M. Quennell: I would not like to let this occasion pass without expressing the gratitude of many women living on alimony who, for many years, failed to understand why they were taxed on their alimony as unearned income when their separated husbands had earned the money.
Mr. Jenkin: I take the point. That is why we are dealing with it.
As I was saying, unification is a momentous reform of the structure of taxation. The greater simplification and greater intelligibility have been commented on by almost every spokesman. The right hon. Member for Stechford was astonished that we should put forward our proposals less than nine months after taking office. That we could do it is a tribute not only to the intensive work done by the Inland Revenue —and there is no question of the Government having to force this on unwilling officials because, on the contrary, we have had the greatest possible support and co-operation from officials in the Inland Revenue and in the Treasury—but also to the years of careful planning that we undertook in opposition. It is tempting to say that tax reforms of this breadth and significance can only be undertaken if the necessary preparation and commitment are made in opposition. I hope the House will feel that it is not only worth waiting until 1973 to enjoy the fruits but that the time, trouble and effort which have been and; will be necessary to bring the reform to fruition will have been well spent.
The second major reform concerns corporation tax. We believe that the economic double taxation of distributed profits is, and can be shown to be, harmful, and that for this reason the existing structure of the tax must be changed. I expect that this will not receive the same universal welcome as the personal tax reform has received. The theory underlying the 1965 reform was that, by discriminating against distributions, the tax system would lead to an increase in retained profits and so to more investment. We on this side always had the gravest doubts not only whether the reform would achieve the objective but, even if it did, whether it was necessarily the most effective way of promoting economic growth.
Unhappily, our fears and doubts have proved well founded. I ask the House to look at what has happened since the Finance Act, 1965, and compare it with what one would expect to find had happened had the Labour Party's aspirations been realised. One might have expected that dividends would have fallen and retentions would have increased. Increased retentions should, on their arguments, have led to higher pre-tax profits, rising
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investment and faster growth. But what do the figures show? They show that dividends have remained more or less constant. Indeed, expressed as a proportion of profits, so far from falling they have if anything tended to rise. As taxation has risen steeply, even allowing for investment grants, profits after tax have fallen. As a consequence of all this, there has been no increase whatever in the proportion of profits retained. In fact, the tendency has been the other way.
The truth is that the last Government never recognised the one cardinal factor in this equation—that companies, except in extremity, will always aim at the very least to maintain their dividends in order to keep the confidence of the market. All that happened, therefore, was that the 1965 tax change made it very much more expensive in terms of pre-tax profits to do this, and with profits stagnant or declining, it was inevitably done at the expense of retentions. Nor is that all. The high cost of servicing dividends, high taxation, low growth and deteriorating business confidence combined to produce depressed conditions in the market for new issues, whether of equity or of loan stock.
It is, therefore, quite evident that in the economic conditions which the last Government brought about—low economic growth, weakening business confidence and stagnant company profits—the effect of the 1965 tax change was by any standard disastrous. The only effect was to increase not retentions, let alone investment, but the total burden of taxation on companies. But even supposing that the system had worked or would have worked in conditions of rising demand—what then? Supposing that retentions had increased significantly. Would that have necessarily been a good thing? Here again, our answer is, "No".
Retentions do not necessarily lead to profitable investment. In so far as they do encourage investment, they encourage mere quantity, not quality. By divorcing investment decision from the market, by tempting directors to regard retained profits as merely a cheap form of finance, by absolving them from applying the same stringent tests to their investment decisions as they would if they had to go to the market, the emphasis on retentions can actually lead to lower growth. Too

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great an emphasise on retained profits can produce, and, indeed, in many cases, has produced, profitless operations by established companies while new, expanding companies have found it increasingly difficult to raise the funds they need.
Dr. John Gilbert indicated assent.
Mr. Jenkin: I am grateful to have the assent of the hon. Member for Dudley (Dr. Gilbert). No doubt he would have been on our side for some at least of our arguments in 1965.
Perhaps this result was expected by right hon. Members opposite, because it was logical and inevitable that where the market was prevented from working properly, the State should have to step in with subsidies. That is what we have had, through massive investment grants. Thus, the distortions of the grant system were added to the discrimination of the tax system. Grants, paid without regard to profitability, were another expression of the foolish philosophy that all investment, profitable or otherwise, is good.
So we have had the worst of all worlds —high levels of company taxation with a bias against distributions, wasteful subsidies which discriminated between industries, both leading to the distortion of market forces and the misallocation of resources and so contributing to low growth; a vicious circle indeed.
The stark truth is and has always been that while Labour Governments have acknowledged that they were responsible for managing a mixed economy with a private sector operating a private enterprise capitalist system, they have never been prepared to create the conditions in which that system could work. So far from providing encouragement to successful enterprise, they have often seemed suspicious and even hostile. If that is not in fact what they said, it was the impression inevitably given by what they did.
We are determined to change all this, and one of the central messages of the Budget is that the Government's attitude to savings, profits and successful, profitable investment is very different from that of our predecessors. We are ready to see the capital market working as it should work and as it is capable of
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working, and may I say how splendidly it has responded to my right hon. Friend's Budget! We aim to transform the business climate, to rebuild confidence so that we can climb out of this slough of despond which is the result of six years of Socialism. The reform of the structure of corporation tax is one of the keys which will unlock this door. The reform is based on the concept of neutrality between distributions and retentions.
As my right hon. Friend said, there are various methods of achieving this, and on domestic grounds we would prefer the two-rate system. My hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) in the course of an intervention asked yesterday whether our proposals envisaged in the treatment of income from overseas a return to the system prevailing up to 1965.
Under both the systems described in the Green Paper, two-rate or imputation, relief will be given for tax paid overseas on a particular source of income up to the amount of corporation tax due on that income. Where a company has more than one source, it will be able to assume so far as possible that its distributions have been made out of profits which have not borne foreign tax, or which have borne foreign tax at a low rate—the so-called Sterling Trust system after the case of that name. By marshalling its distributions in the way described in paragraph 36 of the Green Paper, the company will thus be able to make the fullest use of the reliefs available to it inside the structure of the tax. In many cases more double taxation relief will be due than under the existing system.
The hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) and his hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon)—I am always inclined to call them the hon. Members for Sheldon and Barnett—suggested yesterday that we were out of step with the Common Market because the Van den Tempel report had recommended the so-called classical system which we have at present. We are accused, as I understand it, of abandoning the classical system just when, so it is said, the Community is on the point of adopting it. It is a strange accusation coming from a party which abandoned the credit

1705
system just when everybody else in Europe was adopting it.
I am content to wait and see. Indeed, this is one of the reasons why we are not legislating this year. Plainly, in the world of political realities the eventual choice for the Community will have to reflect the differing interests and views of the member countries. Van den Tempel's preference for the classical system was based on certain assumptions which, as Mr. John Chown has demonstrated in his very illuminating pamphlet, are not necessarily relevant in this country, and I pay tribute to the Institute of Fiscal Studies under which auspices that admirable pamphlet has been published.
Mr. Barnett: Hear, hear.
Mr. Jenkin: I can see that I shall agree with some of the hon. Gentleman's output, but not necessarily all.
We have of course been in touch with those in the Community who are concerned with these matters. I am sure that the House will agree that at a time when we are making an application to become a member it is entirely right and proper that we, as applicants for membership, should make our views and preferences known, and this is what we are doing. I believe that for Europe as for us the real choice will turn out to be between the two-rate and the imputation systems. It is right, therefore, that these should be the two systems which we spell out as alternatives in the Green Paper which we have put before the House. Indeed, apart from unforeseen circumstances, we intend to legislate for one of them next year.
I may add that this is all in stark contrast to what happened in 1965. No one who took part in those debates—and the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton and I were certainly two of them —will ever forget the frantic, frenetic weeks during which the House struggled at all hours of the day and night to keep abreast of the torrent of Amendments, new Clauses and Schedules which poured on to the Order Paper. If it is only to avoid this chaos, it is better that our reform should wait a year so that we make sure we get it right. In my view, it will be a year well spent.
Sir G. Nabarro: So long as we get it right.
Mr. Jenkin: We are more likely to get it right if we take our time.
Sir G. Nabarro: I have the utmost confidence in my hon. Friend so long as he gets it right for posterity and ends all the uncertainty for industry, trade and commerce which arises from an incomprehensible fiscal Statute.
Mr. Jenkin: I take note of my hon. Friend's representations.
At the end, we shall have a company tax system which, together with our new encouragement to savings, our simplification of capital gains tax and our reformed personal tax structure, will provide the framework and the incentives for profitable investment and so for the soundly-based and faster economic growth which all of us, on both sides of the House, want to see.
I must now comment on the remarks of the right hon. Member for Stechford. It was, I suppose, inevitable that he should seek to fan the prejudices of his supporters by claiming that this was a rich man's Budget. I congratulate him on making a much better job of that than did his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition.
Sir G. Nabarro: That was not very difficult.
Mr. Jenkin: No, but the right hon. Gentleman did it quite well. As he knows, that claim was utter nonsense, as I shall now demonstrate.
The truth of the matter was accurately and succinctly stated by my hon. Friend the Member for Brighouse and Spenborough (Mr. Proudfoot) who, in the first back-bench speech of the debate, within minutes of the Leader of the Opposition sitting down, said that this was:
"…the best Budget since the war…for the whole community."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th March, 1971; Vol. 814, c. 1408.]
It announced higher pensions for the elderly—
Mr. Heifer: So did ours.
Mr. Jenkin: I will come to the Budgets before the General Election in a minute.
The Budget announced higher pensions for the elderly, payable in September, two months earlier than they were due. There

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were also the higher age exemption for old people and the higher age relief for elderly married couples. When these are coupled with the family income supplement up-rating for poor families announced on 24th March and the new and improved benefits for the very old and chronic sick announced yesterday, the Government have shown more practical and effective concern for the very poor than the Labour Party could ever achieve. We may not talk as much about compassion, but we manage to do rather more about it. So that was not the mark of a rich man's Budget.
S.E.T. has been halved, and already some food price reductions have been made and more will follow. The Budget gave massive new help for families. The increased child allowances will help every taxpayer with children. The new allowances will take more than 200,000 families with more than half a million children out of tax altogether and benefit a total of some 6¾ million families. That is not a rich man's Budget. The halving of S.E.T. and the increase in child allowances by themselves account for £453 million out of the total of £546 million of tax reliefs given in the Budget for 1971–72, more than four-fifths of the total.
Of the remaining £93 million, £55 million goes in the corporation tax cut, widely recognised as desirable to help investment. Where is his rich man's Budget? The right hon. Gentleman referred to the 15 per cent. earned income relief above £4,005. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer reduced Labour Members to an embarrassed silence when he pointed out that that would cost this year only £16 million, less than 3 per cent. of the total Budget reliefs.
The right hon. Member for Stechford asked yesterday how many people would benefit from this change. The answer is: getting on for half a million—the precise estimate is about 415,000. They include the rising managers and professional men, whom presumably we all want to encourage to stay in this country and give of their best.
I must say I was a little surprised to hear the right hon. Gentleman criticise this proposal so fiercely. After all, he it was who time and again referred in tones of what we assumed to be real
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regret to the fact that he could not move in this direction. In his 1968 Budget, when, as the House will remember, he increased taxation by £923 million in a full year, he had this to say about direct taxation:
"…further substantial increases in taxation on earned incomes could well have a stultifying effect upon the development of the economy…I cannot ignore the experience of our more successful competitor economies abroad…our direct taxation, on earned incomes is comparatively high. It may, indeed, be too high…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th March, 1968; Vol. 761, c. 276.]
and went on to say that he could not contemplate a reduction in that year.
In 1969 the right hon. Gentleman went significantly further, when the election was beginning to loom ahead. In that year he raised taxation by a further £340 million. He took credit again for avoiding increases in direct taxation, but went on to comment:
"…I have carefully considered whether, even in a year as difficult as this, it would be justifiable for incentive reasons, and for the encouragement of savings, to mitigate slightly the rates of tax on high earned incomes."
Again he said he had other priorities, but went on, and no doubt he intended the words to be read outside this House:
"I would emphasise, however, that I regard an increase in one of the earned income allowances as a high priority for a later Budget."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th April, 1969; Vol. 751, c. 1031–2.]
Notice "one of the earned income allowances" following "high earned incomes". I am bound to say that could mean only one thing; namely, that he wished to increase the 1/9th earned income allowance—precisely the change that my right hon. Friend has made. It ill befits him to have criticised the Chancellor so fiercely when he had hinted before the General Election that this was the direction in which he would have liked to move. But we have become used in the last nine months to right hon. Members opposite saying one thing in office and quite the opposite in Opposition, so I suppose we should not have been surprised.
Then there is the disaggregation of wives' earnings. No one has campaigned more vigorously for this than the right hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton) and others of his hon. Friends. There is the disaggregation of minors' income. But hon. Members must not

1709
run away with the idea that only the better-off benefit from that. Hon. Members on both sides of the House have sent me letters from people with quite modest incomes—wives with separation agreements and so on—complaining how the aggregation rule increases their tax burden most unfairly. Lifting the threshold for estate duty costing £10 million for 1971–72 takes almost a quarter of all estates out of the charge altogether. We are left with a mass of minor changes to close companies, capital gains tax, self-employed pensions, stamp duty and so on costing about £12 million altogether.
Of course, these changes will benefit some better-off people—but in most cases we are doing no more than repealing some of the foolish, niggling, stultifying provisions which characterised the Budgets of the Labour Party. They were the sops thrown to the Left wing. They were costly to administer, they raised little revenue, they were the product of the politics of envy.
But what have we done to benefit people with average or less than average earnings? I am content to take the man to whom the right hon. Gentleman for Stechford referred at the end of his speech yesterday—the married man with two children at £27 per week. As a result of the Budget—including the social security contribution—that man will be 51p per week better off. The right hon. Gentleman said, however, that:
"…the man may just about break even as a result of the Budget and the mini-Budget combined."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st March, 1971; Vol. 814, c. 1539.]
The right hon. Gentleman is quite mistaken. Taking both measures together, including the social service charges, that same man is about 34p per week better off, and he keeps more out of every extra £ he earns.
But what happened to the £27 a week man under the right hon. Gentleman and his predecessor? Even leaving out the social service changes, school meals and the prescription charges, which went up under Labour—my officials have told me it would take a week to work that out—his tax went up by 47p per week and his social security contribution by 65p per week.
After taking account of his family allowance increase of 50p he had a net
1710
loss, over the six years, of 62p per week. Under us, 34p per week better off: under Labour, 62p per week worse off. Yet the right hon. Gentleman has the effrontery to call this a rich man's Budget.
Bearing in mind the massive social security benefits, bearing in mind that over 4/5ths of the reliefs consist of the halving of S.E.T. and improved child allowances, bearing in mind that many of the smaller reliefs benefit families who are certainly not rich, this is a Budget which benefits the whole nation.
My right hon. Friend has set the country on a new road to prosperity. This is a Budget which will go down in history as one of the great reforming Budgets of the century, and I am proud to have played my part in it.
4.45 p.m.
Mr. Joel Barnett: I hope that the Financial Secretary will forgive me if I do not say that he has done quite well, as he said of my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins). The Budget will not be judged either by his speech or the excellently-delivered speech of the Chancellor, nor by the way in which it is received—it would have ben churlish of the right hon. Gentleman's hon. Friends if they had not shown their appreciation. It will be judged in future by what it does for unemployment, investment, prices, cost inflation, for what it does to narrow the gap not just between the rich and the poor but between the middle group and the very top, and what it does for economic growth.
Let me deal first with unemployment. The late Iain Macleod always spoke movingly and sincerely on the question of unemployment and condemned levels considerably less than those we have today. The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and the Chancellor have equally condemned the present levels of unemployment as being far too high. What will matter at the end of the day is what the Budget does to bring down those levels. It might appear at first sight that more than £500 million worth of tax reduction will do something to bring down that level. There is now a level of unemployment which includes not just the unskilled, but the skilled, the young and middle-aged executives,

1711
many who never dreamed that under this Government they would be unemployed.
They will be looking for the results of these tax concessions. Unfortunately the way these concessions have been made means that the demand effects are not likely to be much more than about £350 million and the net result of this might well be, thankfully, to prevent unemployment rising to one million next winter, but the Budget is likely to do very little to reduce the present terribly high level of 800,000, a level which is a double tragedy in that it is a tragedy for human and for national resources.
If the Chancellor really means what he says he should be ready to give an assurance today that if, in the summer, my figures prove all too tragically to be right, he will take further action to ensure that those figures come down and we do not have 800,000 unemployed next winter. If he is not prepared to give that assurance then the country will be left believing that it is not much more than words which he has to offer.
I turn now to industrial investment. The greatest criticism levelled at the last Government was to do with the low level of industrial investment which we had. It has been disastrously low for too long yet the Government have known for a considerable time, from their own survey, that it would fall in 1971 by 2 per cent.—for the first time ever there would be a fall in industrial investment. The Chancellor's estimate is that, as a result of the Budget, it will rise by 0·5 per cent. If hon. Members opposite think that a 0·5 per cent. increase in industrial investment is good enough, they are easily satisfied.
One can readily see why the level of industrial investment will be so small. Having removed the investment grant incentive, the right hon. Gentleman has not done enough for the cash flow to ensure that there will be sufficient funds available for the further industrial investment which is so vital to our economy. The effects of the further cut of 2½ per cent. in corporation tax will not be felt until January, 1972. With the previous cut announced, the total cut will be £145 million.
Selective employment tax is to be halved, but the benefit will not go to
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manufacturers except by way of the reduction of the forced loan. [HoN. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Hon. Members say "Hear, hear ", but the only real asset which many concerns have against which they can borrow is the S.E.T. debt, and they have already borrowed against it. Therefore, there will not be all that much left for manufacturing companies. In any case, all of this has already been overtaken by the National Health Service contribution of the employing companies which, in 1971–72, will cost them £140 million and which will start in September before they reap the benefit of the corporation tax reduction next January.
But, as the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry said yesterday, the real reason why companies are not investing runs very much deeper. It has to do with the industrial climate. Anyone with contacts in industry will be aware that it has never been more depressed than perhaps since before the war. It has not been helped by the Government's industrial policy, which is in total disarray. Is the Government's policy interventionist? A partial interventionist policy was adopted towards the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board which resulted in the worst of all worlds, with some lending to that organisation and a refusal of other lending, forcing losses on thousands of small investors who invested, rightly or wrongly, in what they knew to be a trustee stock, with Government directors on the board. The effects on the price of investment for local government and for similar boards are incalculable.
I come to the question of Rolls-Royce. This is not a matter, as we have been led to believe, of a ruthless Government making a ruthless decision to allow a company to go bankrupt. It was a hasty acceptance of a piece of bad advice, as the Government have made clear. If the news from America that a deal has been done with Lockheed is correct, I am sure that the whole House will be delighted. But the net result will be that we are prepared to save Lockheed from bankruptcy and then use the nastiest commercial methods to bankrupt British sub-contractors, thereby doing the maximum damage to engineering prestige, combined with a loss for thousands of small shareholders, including worker shareholders.

1713
The Government appear likely to accept an open-ended commitment to a 20-year deal on what are not likely to be economically viable terms. They may well be right to do so, but it makes a nonsense of their industrial policy. I am therefore not surprised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not have the nerve to add equities to the save-as-you-earn scheme.
It will take more than a Budget to change the industrial climate, for while the Government are busy blaming the past, as the Secretary of State for Industry did yesterday, it is important to recall that industrialists invest on the basis of what they expect from the future, and when they fail to invest they show, with every justification, their lack of confidence in the Government's policies.
That leads me to the other main scapegoat of the Government's failures—the cost and wage inflation. It is perhaps worth reminding the Government that other countries have cost and wage inflation, but they do not fight it with low growth and heavy unemployment. Countries which have done so, such as the United States, have failed and have had to change course. On the other hand, the T.U.C. has recognised that money increases above productivity increases are not helpful to its members, and its attitude has been very much more responsible than that of the Government. It has put forward serious proposals which could have formed the basis for negotiations which were, in effect a form of voluntary incomes policy. This is quite remarkable in the face of the provocation which it has had from the Government. The Budget has slammed the door in the face of those serious proposals.
I hope that the impression given is proved wrong, but I am led to the conclusion that the Government are hell-bent on a suicidal fight to the death with the trade union movement. One cannot come to any other conclusion. The Government have tried to be fair and to show that they are being fair, but their friends will not let their undue modesty prevail. The day after the Budget the Financial Times commented:
"The abolition of short-term capital gains tax and of long-term gains at death, the 75 per cent. limit on surtax, together with the extension of earned income relief are the stuff that capitalist dreams are made of".
Sir G. Nabarro: Hear, hear; good stuff.
Mr. Barnett: The hon. Gentleman may say "Hear, hear", but the Financial Times missed quite a bit and I hope to fill in the gaps. But it was right. In the light of that, one can only assume that the Government do not want the co-operation of the trade union movement.
Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Does the hon. Gentleman want the private sector, the capitalist sector, to work or not?
Mr. Barnett: I shall come to the question whether the capitalist sector, as the hon. Gentleman calls it, should work. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that people who have been paying a marginal tax rate above 75 per cent. were not working up to Tuesday but that since they have been beavering away. If so, he is somewhat insulting to them.
The Government's actions and what they are doing to the chance of co-operation with the trade union movement condemns the nation to a bitter fight, with the Government opting out of the fight on the prices front. It was interesting to note, incidentally, that the Minister of Agriculture said yesterday that the selective employment tax cut "should" result in a cut in prices. He did not say "would", and understandably so because he knows very well that the effect on prices will be minimal.
Sir G. Nabarro: The hon. Gentleman has no justification for saying that the effect of the selective employment tax cut will be minimal. Within 24 hours of the announcement, Sainsbury, Tesco and Sketchley, all multiple chain stores, announced that there would be reductions as a result.
Mr. Barnett: If the hon. Gentleman believes that price cuts in a few large supermarket stores are an indication that all prices will fall in the months ahead, he is entitled to his view. But if he wants a better view he should read Professor Reddaway's Report from which he would conclude that the effect on prices is likely to be minimal. The only effect on prices as a result of what the Government have done in this Budget, together with the October measures which, according to the Financial Statement, should be taken

1715
into account, will be to increase them. So the trade unions are left with no option but to get what they can, and from such a fight there can be only one loser, the nation. That is what the Budget is doing.
It is against this background that one turns to the Government's tax proposals. My right hon. Friend the Member for Stechford and others have spelled out why the Budget is grossly unfair, not just between the top and bottom ranges but between middle income ranges, as those people will learn all too soon. This cannot be refuted except by including all the tax reductions and the pension increases, whilst excluding the Health Service contributions and charges, and the increase in food prices, rents, rates, rail fares and bus fares none of which was caused by cost and wage inflation but by deliberate acts of Government policy.
It is against this background that one is entitled to look at the Chancellor's measures of tax reform. I say at once that the Government deserve congratulations for producing the Green Papers which give us a chance to study the proposals. The Government seem to be arguing, as do many commentators, that the tax reforms are a virtue of themselves. Whilst I welcome some, especially where a victory has been won over the massed ranks of the Inland Revenue, it would be a sour victory if the net result of the reforms were to create even greater unfairness. I do not welcome the reforms for their own sake.
To take the first reform, which amalgamates income tax and surtax and abolishes earned income relief, I naturally welcome this unreservedly, because my hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) and I moved Amendments and new Clauses on exactly these lines consistently from 1964 onwards. This is a simplification which will make the system more readily understandable, but the surcharge on investment income will have considerable administrative problems.
Dividends are being paid to thousands of small shareholders, and it will be necessary to go to all those small shareholders for the surcharge on the investment income. I forecast that the saving in surtax staff will be more than taken up by additional staff which will be required
1716
in the Inland Revenue offices. That might be some consolation to those working on surtax at present. Additional staff will therefore be needed, unless the Chancellor intends to exempt almost all those who are liable to surcharge. The Financial Secretary would not say today what form of exemption there would be. He talked about "a first slice", which is a meaningless phrase unless one knows at what point he is taking the first slice. Much as I commend a good piece of reform if the intention is to introduce simplification and throw out unfairness, I reserve the right to condemn what the Government propose to do.
I further condemn any attempt to move away from a fair principle of taxing earned income at a lower level than investment income. Equally, if it is intended to adjust the allowances against the majority of taxpayers in the range between £1,000 and £5,000 a year, which may well happen, so that the lower wage earners pay more to help those at the higher end of the scale to pay less, I would want to see considerable changes—
Mr. Patrick Jenkin: It might help if I intervened here. My right hon. Friend made it perfectly clear that the allowances would simply be recalculated, rounded off, which means within £2 or £3, to preserve their existing value in the new structure. There is no intention of legislating for different allowances this year.
Mr. Barnett: I am interested to hear that this is administratively possible, and I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's reply.
The next reform which has been welcomed for no other reason than that it is a reform, is the reform of corporation tax. After reading the Green Paper, I do not think that anyone will be under the illusion that this will be a simplification, so it therefore has to be justified on its merits. The hon. Gentleman attempted to do so, but basically his argument is the same as the argument of John Chown in the pamphlet to which he referred: that more profitable investment is obtained through the equity market than from profits that are ploughed back. The pamphlet to which the Financial Secretary referred was more open about it. Mr. Chown conceded that no research had

1717
been done to prove what the Financial Secretary was attempting to prove today. There is no evidence that most of the increased distribution under the Government's proposals would not be consumed. Even if it were not, there is no evidence, as Mr. Chown showed in the pamphlet, that there would be a better return on investment through the equity market than through ploughed-back profits. One may have one's own feeling about it, but evidence there certainly is not.
We all know that the reason why the West Germans introduced this form of tax had nothing to do with economic efficiency but was concerned with an inadequate equity market. After the Financial Secretary had told us at great length what a wonderful new scheme it was, he then conceded that if the Common Market eventually accepts the recommendations of the van den Tempel Report—
Mr. Patrick Jenki indicated dissent.
Mr. Barnett: If the Financial Secretary is now telling us that if we go into the Common Market, which accepts the van den Tempel Report, which is our present corporation tax system, we would not accept it, I shall be interested to hear this. I did not understand that he was saying that, or that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Green Paper were saying that. If eventually the Common Market comes down in favour of the van den Tempel Report, in spite of all his fine words today, he would be prepared to accept it. So much for his arguments.
Hon. Members on the Government side who in the last Parliament were grateful for what the corporation tax system did for close companies, are not perhaps aware that under the new system which is proposed the majority of close trading companies would pay more tax than they do under the present system. I am glad to see that the Financial Secretary does not deny that. This emerged in an answer to a Question which I put down recently to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and it also emerges from the Green Paper. So for all the fine words about the life blood of the country being dependent upon close companies and small trading companies, a system which is being claimed as a great reform will result in
1718
the majority of the close trading companies paying more tax than they do now. The shortfall system, which the Chancellor said was a great concession, will apply to 7 per cent. of trading companies with profits above £100 a year.
The final major reform which the Chancellor referred to was the abolition of S.E.T. No serious case has ever been made against S.E.T.—[Horn. MEMBERS: "Oh."] All we have had has been a series of assertions. Had it been converted, as my right hon. Friend intended, to a percentage payroll tax, together with a purchase tax, that would have been better than reform for its own sake by the introduction of a value-added tax. The proposal of a value-added tax is a cloak under the name of reform for a massive switch to greater unfairness in our tax system. That is what the Chancellor really has in mind.
I make no apology for wanting to see Britain go into the Common Market, but I do not have to like a bad tax. The Richardson Committee in 1964 came out firmly against value-added tax, and this was equally firmly accepted at that time by the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling). One does not need to rehearse all the arguments which were then used, but what was sought to be done with the V.A.T. was to substitute a cumbersome, multi-stage tax for a simple, single-stage tax. Its advantages over purchase tax, as the Richardson Committee pointed out, are non-existent. This again was accepted by the right hon. Member for Barnet. It would be interesting to know whether he has now changed his mind.
The reforms overall are more complicated than the Government have led us to believe, and under the present Government they are likely to be more biased in favour of the wealthy. If there is any doubt about this, we need only look at what has been done so far. The average industrial worker to whom the Chancellor referred, the married man with two children on £28 a week, will benefit to the extent of £44 a year. Neither the right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) nor the Financial Secretary liked my right hon. Friend the Member for Stechford choosing an income of £50,000 for purposes of comparison.

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Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman chided my right hon. Friend for at one time wanting to do the same thing.
Mr. John Boyd-Carpenter (Kingston-upon-Thames): Does the hon. Gentleman not realise that at least his right hon. Friend is to be congratulated on an advance from the figure put forward by the late Mr. Gaitskell who instanced a bachelor with an unearned income of £100,000? I thought that progress in the Labour Party, though slow, was manifesting itself.
Mr. Barnett: I will progress even further. A major debating point that was being made by the right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames and by the Financial Secretary was that my right hon. Friend wanted to do something on these lines and did not. My right hon. Friend was working within a balanced Budget, whereas even the Chancellor's best friends would never accuse him of having produced this week a balanced Budget. [HON. MEMBERS: Oh."] Hon. Gentlemen opposite must be joking if they feel that the Chancellor has produced a balanced Budget. It has been described on the Conservative benches as a Conservative Budget. They probably regard it as a balanced Tory Budget, but it is certainly not balanced overall.
If we take the £28 a week man, as compared with the man earning £20,000 a year, the man in the latter category will be given £2,041 in relief. But the matter does not stop there. If we take both Budgets—the one last October and the present Budget—it will be seen from the Financial Statement that the average industrial worker will get nothing more but will pay more in National Insurance contributions. On the other hand, if the £20,000 a year man has some investment income he will be able to look forward to considerable help in that direction.
Furthermore, if £20,000 a year man can manage it—and the Budget certainly encourages initiative in this respect—he will find a way of hiving off some of his income to his wife. I predict that the Chancellor's estimate of £12 million as to the cost of separate incomes for husbands and wives will prove to be very low. He under-estimates the initiative of his friends elsewhere. They have not shown enormous initiative in industrial
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management, but I can assure him that, when it comes to taking advantage of tax concessions, that initiative will soon be shown.
Mr. Peter Rees: The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely interesting suggestion. Would he explain how a husband will be able to create earned income for his wife other than by employing her? If he does not employ her bona fide, surely the Inland Revenue will disallow deductions for her income?
Mr. Barnett: That is an interesting point. There are methods, but I feel that it would be unprofessional to go into them—unless those who read HANSARD are prepared to pay the appropriate fee. A similar situation applies to disaggregation where, again, I predict the Chancellor is in for a surprise at the number of beneficent grandparents who will be unearthed. The new free gift of an extra £750 annuity to the self-employed and close company directors will prove beneficial, particularly since they will be able to take part of it as a lump sum.
Sir G. Nabarro: Very satisfactory.
Mr. Barnett: It may be satisfactory to the hon. Gentleman, but it is not satisfactory to the man earning £28 a week. Certainly that sort of initiative will be very much encouraged. It will be further encouraged by the amalgamation of long-and short-term capital gains, but it will be an initiative aimed at investing in speculation rather than towards any additional industrial investment.
Apart from the massive reliefs which are being given in tax cuts, to the man on £20,000 a year, all the other measures will put very large sums in the pockets of that type of individual. It is not my idea of a balanced Budget that that sort of individual, or even the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro), much as we like him, should have that much more money in his pocket.
As far as the £28 a week man is concerned, and the vast majority of people in the middle income groups who want to be able to use their initiative, there will be no additional incentive. This is not to say that some of the concessions in the Budget are not in themselves worth while. Some are worth while, but they are appallingly unfair in the context in which

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they have been set. The average industrial worker, the young executive and the man in the middle income group will receive nothing or only a very small amount from this Budget, and will have to pay considerably more as a proportion of income. None of these concessions will offset their having to pay the higher Health Service charges, higher contributions and all the rest. The evidence is overwhelming that the gap has been widened between the two halves of the nation—between the small group at the top and the rest. And this also involves the middle income group.
In the economic sphere the failure of the Chancellor in this Budget is much worse. He has failed to grasp the great opportunity to go for growth on a much more imaginative scale than was necessary. Michael Shanks wrote an article in The Times on Monday which is very worth while quoting:
"We are virtually free of overseas debt; our balance of payments surplus is the highest in our history and one of the strongest in the world; our economy is running well below capacity; unemployment is nearing its postwar peak and still rising. If the Government is not in a position to offer a commitment to growth in return for union restraint, one wonders when it ever will be. It would be a great tragedy if this unique opportunity—never open to the Labour Government—is not used."
Mr. Peter Hordern: Does the fact that Mr. Michael Shanks talks nonsense mean that the hon. Gentleman has to repeat it? Is it not the case that the whole of the surplus of which the hon. Gentleman boasts is due to be paid to the I.M.F.?
Mr. Barnett: I am sure that Mr. Michael Shanks would be interested to hear the hon. Gentleman's opinion about his view of the economy, and I am sure that he will have his own view about the hon. Gentleman's view of the economy. I agree with Mr. Shanks that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has missed a great opportunity. It is a tragedy because it stems from a failure to put growth first. It stems from an obsession with overseas debt. Why in the current healthy position, in which I am happy to see that the Chancellor has been able to confirm a reduction of 1 per cent. in Bank Rate, does he need to allow the borrowing of hot money at anything between 8 to 10 per cent. and then boast about the fact that he is now repaying, earlier than
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necessary, moneys borrowed at a much lower rate? That is strange financial management of our affairs, although we should not be so surprised, coming from a Government who have managed our industrial affairs with equal incompetence.
There are dangers from going for too high a rate of economic growth. There are dangers that deficits will build up again and we shall have a further increase in debt. But we have a very large surplus and massive foreign assets, so we would have an opportunity of funding those debts which were funded in worse circumstances. It would not be very difficult to do it today. The dangers of failing to go for a higher rate of economic growth are much worse, because they include continuing unemployment at an unacceptable level and too low a level of industrial investment with disastrous consequences not just for today, but for the future. These are the terrible consequences of going for too low a rate of industrial growth.
I conclude that not only has this Budget missed a great opportunity to use tax reform to make a fairer distribution of the national wealth, but it has combined that failure with failing to go for a higher priority in economic growth and, therefore, has wilfully cast away any chance of a meaningful dialogue with the trade union movement, thus further dividing the nation which right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite were elected to unite.
5.22 p.m.
Mr. Ernest Marples: It is nice to follow the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett). First, he is always pleasant; secondly, it is rewarding, because I generally agree with him; and, thirdly, we belong to the same trade union, the Institute of Chartered Accountants.
On this occasion I think that the hon. Gentleman's arithmetic was somewhat faulty. First, he talked about putting more money in people's pockets. What he really meant was taking less money out of people's pockets.
The hon. Gentleman said that S.E.T. was a reasonable tax. The whole country thinks that it was a lousy tax. He said that the unions, because of the Budget, will be determined to get all they can, because the Budget would make them

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do just that. I ask the hon. Gentleman to consider what happened between 1969 and 1970. At constant market prices we have a gross national product increase of 2 per cent. But what about wages? Before this Budget was introduced wages were up by 14 per cent.—seven times as much as the increase in g.n.p. If the hon. Gentleman is right, I tremble to think what will happen in 1971–72.
To summarise the hon. Gentleman's contribution to the debate in a friendly way, it is rather like the description in Baedeker warning people going to the European continent for the first time "to beware of the waiter, because his arithmetic is faulty and seldom in favour of the traveller." So it was in this case.
One matter with which the hon. Gentleman did not deal, which I think is most important, is cost inflation and the inflationary wage system. I intend to deal with that matter. But first I should like to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on his speech on Tuesday for three reasons. First, it was lucid and short, and I shall try to make mine short; secondly, he kept the pledges which the party made to the country; and, thirdly, he listed a number of future reforms which clearly he has on a catalogue and intends to carry out in future.
I was disappointed that my right hon. Friend did not bring in one reform which I think should be brought in at the earliest possible moment—namely, self-assessment of income tax in the United Kingdom as they have it in America. My right hon. Friend would find that he could make a tremendous saving if that was brought in. It could reduce staff by 19,000, at a most conservative estimate, and make a great deal of money for the taxpayer. We had a report on "Self-assessment" when in Opposition. We reported at the same time as we reported on the tax reforms which are to be introduced. We did our homework on tax and it has certainly paid dividends.
The Chancellor, in his speech, set out what he thought was wrong. My right hon. Friend said that of the immediate economic problems which the Government inherited the most serious was cost inflation, and he went on to say:
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"Cost inflation is a canker which is eating away at our whole economic and social health. It is causing an arbitrary and inequitable redistribution of income from those who can least afford it to those in strong bargaining positions. At the same time it is sapping our economic strength, because by squeezing profit margins it undermines the confidence of businessmen and causes them to cut back on investment."
That is why there has been a large cutback in investment.
Having said what was wrong, like a good Chancellor, my right hon. Friend then set out what his objective was, and I shall deal with that. My right hon. Friend's objective was:
"If we can get the rate of increase of money earnings down to something much nearer the rate of increase of national productivity, there is every reason to believe that we shall break out into a new period of faster growth, higher investment, rising living standards and a renewed confidence in our future."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th March, 1971; Vol. 814, c. 1361.]
I come then to the third point of my right hon. Friend, which is the method paragraph. It's splendid to have an objective. But it's useless if it can't be achieved. I must tell my right hon. Friend and his colleagues on the Front Bench that I do not think that the method being followed by the Government is likely to achieve that objective. I shall explain why. First, they think that if public sector wages are kept low, automatically the private sector will follow suit and keep low. That does not follow by any means.
When I was a member of the Cabinet we had a squeeze on nurses' pay, which I did not like. Then is was assumed that the rest of private industry would follow suit. It did not. It cannot do so, for two reasons.
In the public sector I instance the Post Office. People will lend money to the Post Office because they know that ultimately the Government of the day has the priceless advantage of being able to extract taxes compulsorily from taxpayers. Therefore, they know that the cash flow will continue because the cash flow is guaranteed. So the Post Office can and did borrow at the end of the strike.
But many private firms cannot do that Chrysler could not do it. It could not afford a strike so it had to give way quite meekly to the demands of its workers. It is simply no use saying that because the public sector does it the private sector will do it. It cannot. Ford is another example.

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All parties have talked more nonsense to the square inch about norms or percentages than almost anything else. We hear about 8 per cent. as the norm or 9 per cent. On what basis? To somebody getting £50,000 a year 8 per cent. is one thing, but to somebody getting £500 it is another. It is useless and unrealistic to talk about percentage norms. Similarly with a wage freeze. Ultimately it means that a dam is building up. When it breaks, as it did when the Opposition were in power, the floodgates are opened and the situation is worse than before. These norms or these wage freezes are just short-term expedients. They are really not a policy at all.
The reason that my right hon. Friend will not get a correct comparison of increases in incomes with the increases of gross national product is fairly simple. The present wage system of settling claims in this country is about the most archaic and mediæval I have ever seen. I have here some of the wage claims made between July, 1969, and 1970. On average, five wage settlements were arrived at every working day of the year. Of those five, at least one applies to over 10,000 people. The increases vary between 2 per cent. and 33 per cent. There is no pattern, no logic, and no possible measurement of what they will cost.
As the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton knows from when he first became an accountant, anybody who wants to cheat an employer either does not keep any books at all, which is the best thing, or, if he does keep books, he fiddles them, which is the next best thing. That is true, I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree. It is what we used to call in my early days as an accountant a pig's breakfast. That is what this list of wage settlements really is. It provides fertile ground for leapfrogging by trade unions. If any bright trade union leader wants promotion, he has only to look at the list to find all the comparisons that he wants. Anyone can get an increase based on the facts and figures in it.
Mr. Heffer: Give us the names of the list.
Mr. Marples: Hon. Gentlemen opposite do not need it. They have already
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got it. That is why they want to keep the present situation.
My point is that to make a fair comparison we must get an accurate measurement of the prospective increase in the gross national product, and at precisely the same date we must estimate increases in wages and salaries. To my mind, we should gain a tremendous advantage if that could be done, and I think that it can be done. If it were done, we should find that the country as a whole understood the nature of the problem, which it does not at present.
All this could be done if, in the month when the increase in the gross national product is normally calculated for the coming year, what people would be claiming in wages and salaries in the coming year were calculated. Then we compare like with like. If the increase in the gross national product was, say, £300 million and prospective increases in wages and salaries were £2,000 million, everyone would realise that it simply was not possible without, of course, grievously harming the national economy. In other words, we ought to have our two measurements—increase of wages and increase of G.N.P.—before we take the irrevocable step of fixing wages. To try to increase wages before we know the increase in G.N.P. is folly.
The system would have several advantages. It could be demonstrated so that any ordinary family knew what it meant. Also the whole country would know what it meant. I honestly think that, until we can explan our dilemma to the people, we shall never get their support. A recent National Opinion Poll reveals that 50 per cent. of the people do not know what inflation means. That certainly means they will never know what de-escalation means. I am sure that the Government could find a simpler word than de-escalation. Now most people do not know the relationship between wages and prices; and a third of the population do not understand why there is so much discussion about wage claims being so high.
Mr. Heffer: I am listening intently to the right hon. Gentleman, and I have a great deal of sympathy with certain aspects of his argument. But surely he is putting only one side of the problem. Let us take, for example, the position

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of Ford in Britain and that of Ford in Germany. Ford in Germany, from the point of view of investment, capitalisation and the development of machinery, is in a position where it can make something like two-thirds more machinery available for the use of each of its workers and finds, as a result, that it is cheaper to produce there than in this country. The right hon. Gentleman is putting forward only one side of the problem.
Mr. Marples: There are many sides to the problem. I am concentrating on this particular one, because unless we get an accurate measure of the comparison between increased wage claims and increased G.N.P. we are not in business.
I have put these ideas forward in the past, but people have said to me that it is a good theory. But they say that in practice it can happen only in a small country like Luxembourg. That is not so. It happens in Japan, and Japan has twice our population. Under Japanese law, at the same time once a year there are talks between the Government and all businesses on pay claims. That means both Government and private industry. Now if the Japanese can do it, with twice our population, it is not beyond the wit of this country to do the same. The Japanese agree a basic salary. This is adjusted up or down according to the nature of the job. Then a percentage increase is also agreed at this annual assessment. In my view, we should adopt a similar procedure. At the same time as we add the percentage increase to wages we should add a similar increase to fixed pensions. Then everyone comes in on the increased cash racket at the same time.
But oddly enough, Japan does something else that we do not do, and that is produce growth in the economy. Unless we in the United Kingdom aim at and get growth, we shall never make the grade and achieve a higher standard of living. Between 1952 and 1968, the annual growth rate in Japan was 9·6 per cent. Ours was 3 per cent. In view of that, I urge my right hon. and hon. Friends to make at once a detailed study of what happens in Japan in the same way as, when we were in opposition, we made feasibility studies on tax simplification and self-assessment. At that time,
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we had no resources other than what we could scrounge. Today, my right hon. and hon. Friends have all the resources, and I should very much like them to have such a study made.
If there were an incomes policy based upon something like that, many other consequential policies would follow, such as prices and bargaining at plant level. But we shall never achieve what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer hopes for unless and until, in his forward forecasts for a year, he can measure the increases in both wages and salaries in the same way as he measures the increase in the gross national product. Then he can compare the two and we know where we are going.
I conclude by reminding my right hon. and hon. Friends again of our time in opposition. In those days, whenever we did any research, we said that we should never reject the unthinkable alternative. I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends still hold to that view.
5.37 p.m.
Mr. Patrick Gordon Walker: I am not sure that the Government will find it so easy to copy the rather simple methods adopted in Japan—[Interruplion.] I say that because there are very many differences between the two countries, including the organisation of trade unions, the organisation of industry, the role of government, and the acceptance of laws in Japan which would not be accepted here.
However, I thought that the right hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples) spoke a good deal of sense, especially in the first part of his speech. He is right when he says that the Government cannot achieve their objective by discriminating against public employees. Apart from the reasons that he gave, such a policy will gradually make it impossible to keep up recruitment in those services. I agree, too, that here is too much talk about percentages when wage increases are considered. However, this conclusion makes nonsense of the Government's policy, which is based entirely on percentage terms.
The declared purpose of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to encourage enterprise, initiative and effort. The method that he uses exemplifies the Conservative concept of incentives. It is really

1729
that the way to get a rich man to work is to give him more money and the way to get a poorer man to work is to give him less money. That was the basis of the Financial Secretary's argument. But I cannot understand how increases in income for the most highly rewarded people without any guarantee of increased productivity is regarded by the Conservatives as a sovereign tonic for the economy whereas the same thing for workers is regarded as a heinous crime. I cannot understand how the two arguments are put together. The Financial Secretary said that we on this side are guilty of politics of envy. In my view, he and his right hon. and hon. Friends are inspired by the politics of greed.
The Chancellor did very little to tackle the two great problems before us—massive unemployment and rapid inflation. The real reason is that this Government are inhibited by a number of doctrinal prejudices, of which the chief is the view that high wages are the chief cause of unemployment. This is repeated over and over again by the Prime Minister, without his ever giving any reason for believing this. He seems to think that reiteration is a kind of explanation.
There is of course an element of truth in this, but it is a gross over-simplification. Germany today has higher wages than we do and much lower unemployment. There cannot be this simple correlation which the Prime Minister preaches at us—
Mr. Kenneth Baker (St. Marylebone): They strike less.
Mr. Gordon Walker: One cannot say, either, that the Germans get out of this problem because their workers work harder or longer. In fact, they have much more time off than British workers. The four weeks holiday is general in German industry, and they have four or five more bank holidays every year than we do. In this sense, more time is lost in Germany in a year than by all our unofficial strikes put together.
But the great advantage from the German point of view is that this lost time comes on predictable, known dates —[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I am glad that that is cheered. The conclusion surely is that it might be a way of reducing unofficial strikes in this country if we gave more regular, organised,
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predictable time off, on the German model.
Mr. T. L. Iremonger: Surely that would not serve the purpose of unofficial strikes, because it would not muck up industry and the economy.
Mr. Gordon Walker: It is just conceivable that one reason that the Germans do not have so many unofficial strikes is that they get more time off. We do not know, but certainly the increase of holidays has on the whole tended to reduce strikes.
If the Prime Minister looked at his doctrine of high wages with rather less prejudiced eyes, he would see that there is an important element of truth also in the converse of his proposition, because high wages are caused by inflation. Trade union wage claims inevitably include safeguards against future and assumed inflation. Every one does this in the country—every one who can—and it is natural that trade unions do it. So the attack on inflation must include, if not start with, an attack on prices.
If the Chancellor had really wanted to lower prices, he would, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) said, have cut purchase tax instead of S.E.T. We had an argument about whether the S.E.T. cut will reduce prices. I am dubious about it, but what is certain is that an equivalent cut in purchase tax would have reduced prices much more effectively and clearly. Then, as my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) said, in his very able and trenchant speech, the Government have themselves put up the cost of living by the charges which they have imposed on the people.
It is to be welcomed that the Chancellor has accepted that some reflation is necessary, but I have come to the conclusion, after a lot of thought, that he is much too cautious. The worst thing about this Budget is that the highest goal that the Chancellor has set himself is to leave unchanged the intolerable level of unemployment. I am doubtful whether he will even attain his limited goal. Of course, the cut of Bank Rate, which I welcome and which I think overdue, will help by easing credit, but there are important factors on the other side which the Chancellor cannot have taken

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into account, if one listened to his argument.
First of all, the increased purchasing power provided through the Budget is largely nullified by the social insurance charges announced yesterday. Second, continuing inflation will erode real increase in purchasing power. But there is a third factor which has not been much noticed or mentioned in this debate.
Economists and Governments tend always, like generals who fight the last war, to fight the last depression. But every depression has new and different factors in it, because it concerns human beings, and human and psychological reactions are different. In this depression, it seems that the new, unexpected and paradoxical phenomenon, which is borne out by experience so far in the United States and here, is that any given increase in purchasing power tends to go much more than in previous depressions into savings, and much less into consumption.
It is much against theory, of course, that people should increase savings at a time of inflation, which erodes savings. Nonetheless, it is happening. The cause may be the Damocles' sword of unemployment, the fact that all classes and income groups are frightened of the sudden coming of redundancy and feel it right to provide, even though their savings may be somewhat eroded, a nest egg against this—right through society, wherever people are employed.
But whatever the causes of this new phenomenon, the consequences are clear. We need a rather greater infusion of purchasing power than in previous depressions to secure any given degree of reflation. Therefore, the Chancellor has been over-cautious and should have reflated on a greater scale.
But I feel that he is, like almost all previous Chancellors since the war, inhibited by certain conventional and orthodox fears and arguments. Of course it is a very respectable argument that, to get increased exports, one needs a flourishing home industry, but the first result of a flourishing home industry is an increase of imports before any corresponding increase in exports. That endangers even a large balance of payments surplus—as we have seen in the past—which leads us in due course into a balance of payments crisis and from
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that to the conclusion that it is therefore safer to keep the economy at half throttle. This is the conclusion which the Chancellor drew in the analysis on which he based this Budget.
The real problem facing us, therefore, is how to get out of this dilemma, how, in effect, to get the ideal which we never seem to get hold of—an export-led boom. This needs some Government guidance and encouragement of exports, but it is hard to expect that from this Government, who do not believe in any interference in the economy. But even if there were Government help and guidance to encourage the production of exports, to try to balance this first effect of stimulating the home economy, I still do not think that it would be enough. The only way in the end to be sure of getting an export-led boom is if export prices fall and import prices rise.
Therefore, the right course is to reflate on a greater scale than the Chancellor has so far risked, so as to get a more buoyant home economy, within which exports will gradually rise to use the balance of payments as a cushion, in the hope that it will preserve us, as it well may, because it is a very large one, but, if necessary—I do not think that it would be necessary—to be ready to resort to small adjustments in the exchange rate instead of waiting for some great, forced, large-scale devaluation.
Of course, if one were ready for those small adjustments, that would lower export prices and increase import prices at that point. This is a very unorthodox thing, which will be decried, but for the last 20 years we have tried every other possible solution, every variant of all other possible solutions, and every Government in turn, including our own, have come unstuck on this.
The policy which I have proposed is the only way that I can see by which this country can get out of this straitjacket which has for so long and so perniciously stultified economic growth. After all, economic growth is the only fundamental remedy for inflation and unemployment.
5.50 p.m.
Mr. Piers Dixon: I wish to put on record in rising to speak in the House for the first time how much we regret

1733
the departure of Mr. Geoffrey Wilson, who was greatly loved in this House and who made an enormous mark on all questions affecting the transport industry. I am proud to succeed him in the Truro division.
The present Truro constituency, with 66,000 voters and one M.P., was a very different place in the days before the great Reform Bill of 1832. In those days there were five pocket and rotten boroughs, each of which had two M.P.s, giving 10 in all, embraced within the boundaries of the present constituency of Truro. As far as I am aware, that is a record for any modern constituency.
In those days the 10 M.P.s were elected by 300 voters. In Truro they consisted of the mayor and 24 members of the corporation—they are still there—and throughout the 18th century almost without exception the two M.P.s were representatives of the family of my hon. Friend the present Member for Wells (Mr. Boscawen).
The most distinguished representatives of the little village of Mitchell was the great Duke of Wellington, who embarked on his public life as the hon. Member for a Cornish constituency. Indeed, it could be said that the Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Mitchell.
The little village of Grampound also had two M.P.s That was such a corrupt borough that even the pre-1832 unreformed House of Commons could not abide it, and it was disfranchised by Lord John Russell, whose family owned a lot of pocket and rotten boroughs.
In the village of Tregony there were an unusually large number of voters, 150, and they returned two M.P.s This made corruption very much easier, though, of course, much more expensive. Every voter demanded £5 for each vote cast, and this meant that it cost about £750 to become an hon. Member for Tregony. The broker was the vicar of Tregony.
In the Port of St. Mawes, which some hon. Members may have visited during their summer holidays, representation was handed from one person to the next entirely as if it were a piece of property. There was one gentleman who, when he died, left it to his widow. She remarried and handed it to her new husband. When the lady died the second husband re-
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married, had a daughter and bequeathed the representation of the Port of St. Mawes to his son-in-law.
In those days there were no inheritance taxes or death duties and the world was a much simpler place. However, I leave the financial problems of 1771 for those of 1971. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has produced what I believe to be a splendid Tory Budget in the classic style. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I thought that hon. Gentlemen opposite would agree with that. This Budget will be—indeed, it has already been—welcomed with great eagerness by my constituents in Cornwall.
Much as I like the content of the Budget, I must admit a certain reluctance to accept one measure, which is the reduction in the rate of corporation tax from 42-1 per cent. to 40 per cent. I would have been happier if that money could have been used by his effecting immediately the alterations in the structure of corporation tax which he has promised.
I would like to have seen an immediate reduction in the rate of tax on distributed profits to 35 per cent. accompanied by a tax on retained profits of 50 per cent. This figure would produce approximately the same result as a straight 40 per cent. tax on corporate profits. Eventually I would like to see the tax on distributed profits reduced from 35 per cent. to 25 per cent.
The reason why the present tax system is morally wrong is that it is unfair to shareholders. First of all profits are taxed in the hands of the company. Next they are taxed in the hands of the shareholder. My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary paraded these arguments most adequately, but there was one point where I parted company from him. I hope it was a slip of the tongue when he referred to the "servicing of dividends". One does not service dividends. One services interest. Dividends belong to the people who own the company—something which, in the Conservative Party, cannot be too strongly repeated.
The present tax system is not only morally wrong but economically inefficient. We must encourage companies not to retain their profits but to distribute them to their shareholders; otherwise we

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are in danger of getting into the position which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has described as "the survival of the fattest."
In the end, the shareholder knows best. The market has its disciplines, and shareholders are the best judges. They must be allowed to decide how best to use the dividends they receive from companies—whether to return them to those companies or find a better use for the money in other companies.
However, even if it could be argued that this would have this effect on investment, I often wonder whether investment does, in fact, create economic growth. It is sometimes said that one should not change the structure of corporation tax because companies would stop investing. Perhaps it would be a good thing if they did stop. There is a clear correlation between investment and economic growth, but which comes first? It is argued that investment creates economic growth. I suspect that it is exactly the other way round and that it is the expectation of economic growth which induces businessmen to invest.
A word about wealth. The Conservative Party should proclaim loud and clear that it is in favour of wealth—but not, I assure hon. Gentlemen opposite, the preservation of inherited wealth. I refer to the wealth which a man can accumulate within his lifetime. It should be possible for every Englishman to accumulate £100,000 within his own lifetime, if he has the energy and determination, and in the process he will enable his fellow citizens also to increase their wealth.
It may astonish some hon. Members opposite to learn that I find it morally objectionable that in 1971 any man should inherit and acquire £100,000 purely by the accident of being someone else's son. I have seen no evidence to suggest that large lumps of money in the hands of a relatively small number of individuals do anything to increase the prosperity of the rest of the country. I know that it is argued that people seek to accumulate wealth in order to leave money to their descendants. Those who believe this are kidding themselves. In my experience, people seek to accumulate wealth not for their children or their
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grandchildren but basically for themselves and possibly for their wives.
To implement these provisions I would, first, abolish capital gains tax, because it is inefficient. As I understand it, in the eyes of hon. Members opposite the declared purpose of a capital gains tax is to redistribute existing wealth. In fact, it does not have this effect. All it does is to stop a man from getting from £1,000 up to £100,000.
Second, we should replace estate duty with a system of inheritance taxes. Ideally, I should like a world in which every man could bequeath as much as he wished without penalty, but I must recognise the logic that every bequest involves an inheritance. I like bequests. I do not like inheritances.
Therefore, I should like there to be a system in which the present high rate of tax was maintained in the case of a man leaving £100,000 to one individual, or possibly an even higher rate, but a very much lower rate of tax for someone who bequeaths £10,000 to each of 10 people, who may or may not be his children.
I would also advocate a change so that a man's estate did not suffer inheritance taxes until his widow died.
A final suggestion which I hope will commend itself to hon. Members opposite is that we must have a tax on gifts inter vivos that works. We all know that the redistributive purposes of the present estate duty system are largely invalidated by the absence of an effective gifts tax. Here again, I should like to see a gifts tax which was smaller in its impact if a man gave small sums to a large number of people than a large sum to one person, but I recognise that administrative problems may be involved in doing that.
6.4 p.m.
Mr. Robert Sheldon: The hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Dixon) started his interesting speech by regaling us with the happy parliamentary doings of Cornwall, which gave us some hint of what might be possible were we to revert to those former happy days.
I was particularly interested to know that we have in our midst another growth man. I particularly welcome such an

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addition. I noted, too, the hon. Gentleman's suggestion about taxing gifts inter vivos, a suggestion which he will find is supported in many parts of the House, particularly on this side. The other rather more controversial matters the hon. Gentleman raised might be better dealt with in subsequent debates. I look forward to hearing the hon. Gentleman deploy his talents in arguments leading to the conclusions that he drew in his speech.
The reform of taxation introduced by the Chancellor fitted in rather oddly with a debate we had on 7th December on the Inland Revenue Department. I say at the outset that I am fully in agreement with the idea that there is scope for reform, there is need for reform, and the Departments of Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise are capable of instituting and initiating this reform.
However, this is rather different from the opinion expressed by the Financial Secretary on 7th December:
"The hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne suggested, in the nicest possible way"—
the Financial Secretary is ever courteous—
"that that was an exaggeration"—
that is, my view that the Inland Revenue Department was not being overworked—
"and was not supported by the evidence given to the Committee. I am bound to tell him, from the full and thorough investigations which my right hon. Friends and I made on moving into the Treasury after 18th June, that the position is no less serious now than that described in the Report. Further, there is no doubt that it represents one of the major constraints on our freedom of manœuvre, and certainly it is one of the unhappier legacies which the Government have inherited from their predecessors."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th December, 1970; Vol. 808, c. 115.]
If it is the Inland Revenue, understaffed and overworked, which is able to initiate the reforms that the Chancellor mentioned in his Budget Statement, there must have been some massive changes between December and March of a kind that would considerably strain the credulity of the House. We must therefore assume that the criticism that I made on that occasion that it was a nonsense that the Inland Revenue was being overworked was correct. No doubt those in the Department were asked, "Are you being overworked?", and they replied, as 99 per cent. of hon. Members would
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reply and as perhaps 99 per cent. of the general public would reply, in the only possible way—"Yes". To accept such a statement was nonsense. The pity was that for a time it was accepted and certain reforms that should have been introduced and which needed to be introduced were not introduced because the Department's views were rather too readily accepted at their face value.
As a result, we did not get the income tax reforms that my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) and myself pressed for year after year, when we wanted this amalgamation of income tax and surtax, and when we wanted the rate of income tax reduced to the amount of the standard rate less the earned income allowance. As a result, for years people went on believing that they paid more income tax than they did, and, whenever income tax changes were introduced, there were disproportionate changes in surtax. The whole thing was less flexible because there was a failure to introduce the reforms which were available.
The Financial Secretary was rather embarrassed about the matter of the Van den Tempel Report. It is clear why this is so. The Green Paper is in advance of our knowing whether we shall get into the European Economic Community. If we are to join the Community, and if the Community adopts the Van den Tempel recommendations, we shall have to adopt them, too. Thus, the whole proposal is in limbo, and it is hoped by the Government that the period during which the Green Paper is in gestation will cover the period of negotiations, the period before the decision is known on whether we are to enter Europe.
I was particularly unhappy that the Budget did not bring some decline in the very high rates of purchase tax. This may not be the most important item to be included in a Budget, but it is one of considerable importance nevertheless, for this reason. These rates were introduced specifically to meet the problems of the post-devaluation economic situation. They were quite penal rates introduced for a specific purpose to cover us during that period, and rates such as 55 per cent.—and not only the rates but the distortion introduced by rates of that kind—really ought not to have been

1739
allowed to continue for so long. The hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) knows the situation well. We have gramophone records, on the one hand, charged at the highest rates while, on the other hand, various more luxurious goods are charged at lower rates.
The main point is that value judgments are made by Chancellors when we have high rates of this kind, and they are value judgments which ought rarely to be left to economic Ministers. As a result of this Budget, however, we are still left with distortions of that kind.
As my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) pointed out, this would have been one the easiest ways by which the Government could not so much have redeemed their pledges—the time has long passed for that—but could at least have made some progress towards offsetting some of the odium which they have rightly incurred by deceiving the electorate.
The two main tests which I apply to the Budget are simple. Is it a fair Budget? Is it reflationary enough? Is it reflationary enough to produce the kind of growth which will end the slide which began many decades ago, and is still continuing, by which this country's economic growth, economic standing and industrial importance have year by year declined which, unfortunately, we cannot be sure even now has been brought to a halt?
I was repelled by the decision on surtax, the change from one-ninth earned income relief to 15 per cent. without an upper limit. It put one in mind of some of those small countries which are run for the benefit of the dictators and their friends. It is a sheer hand-out, with no basis in equity as between one section of our society and another.
Previous Conservative Chancellors, Conservative in their ideas and unswerving just as much as the present Chancellor is, had, perhaps, a better understanding of the people of Britain. They had the same desire to bring about a reduction in the highest rates of surtax, but they waited, rightly, for the time when they would be able to benefit all sections of the community, not wishing to give to their friends earning £50,000 a year a tax-
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free lump sum each year of £6,800 while the ordinary average man had precious little. They never had the impudence to do that. They were men of standing, men who really spoke for the nation even though they came from a party different from mine.
To do it in such a year as this is an insult to the people of Britain. I believe that the band of £50.000-a-year men is likely to grow. Admittedly, there are not many now at that sort of level, but one of the consequences of this change will be that directors will go on to vote themselves rather higher remuneration without any proof which can be submitted to us that they will earn it in any way by increased effort or application.
I do not believe that it can be shown that it is a question of incentives at that kind of level. I suppose that it can be rightly argued that there have been occasions when salaries at the top have been kept low because of the small incentive entailed in paying the tax man so much. But, none the less, there will be no benefit to the community necessarily arising from the change, and there will certainly be a feeling that a greater division has been created between one section of the community and another.
The Budget may have been clever. It may have been too clever by half, for at the end of the day people really do know how much comes into their pockets and how much goes out. From what was said on Budget day, and in the days thereafter, they will learn that the average person has got very little out of it and the wealthy have got a great deal.
It is a thousand pities that, for the first time since 1935 perhaps, a great opportunity was not seized by an incoming Government, a new Government with fresh ideas, energies and enthusiasm, and with a fair measure of ability, too—an opportunity presented to them by a balance of payments situation giving them far greater freedom of manœuvre than almost any previous incoming Government had for, perhaps, 30 or 40 years.
Although inflation may have been higher than normal because of the situation all over the world, the greatest economic constraint facing this country over the past 30 years has been the balance of payments constraint, and that was no longer there. So the Government had

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this freedom of action, this supreme opportunity to make decisions of a kind not available to previous incoming Governments. Their failure to use that opportunity to produce the necessary expansion will, I am sure, be judged as gravely wrong in the years to come. This could have been a historic Budget instead of a Budget which failed to take the opportunities presented.
We all know what the Government did with the balance of payments surplus. They used it to fight the trade unions. One of the interesting features during the 1950s was that Conservative Governments were always a little apprehensive of the trade unions, not only because of their natural desire to create an accord with the trade unions but also because there were certain situations in which the trade unions, if opposed by a hostile Government, could create balance of payments difficulties. But the present Government are using our balance of payments to fight the trade unions, accepting the loss of production, the bitterness and the inefficiencies which come from this battle with the unions. They are using the balance of payments partly for that purpose, but they have used it partly, also, to pursue policies of sectional interest which I find particularly unhappy.
I come now to the question of investment. We see from the Government's Financial Statement that their expectation for investment is that it will expand by zero per cent. in the second half of this year over the same period last year, and will expand by 0·5 per cent. in the first half of next year over the first half of this year. But it must be understood that that increase in investment is as a result of the Budget. It is not a pre-Budget decision. It is the Government's expectation as to how industry will react to the Budget statement. The Treasury believes that the level of investment resulting from the Budget decision will be zero per cent.
Mr. Peter Trew: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that many capital investment projects take a long time to get off the ground, and that the real benefit will come in two to three years' time?
Mr. Sheldon: Most hon. Members will agree that there is a time lag, but I do not think that such a time lag has any mean-
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ing. If we are to produce changes with such a time lag it can be argued that all Budgets are meaningless, which is not a view that Chancellors, including the present Chancellor, have stated in the past.
We see that investment will be completely static as a result of the Budget, because of manufacturers' expectations of sales. My hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton and the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry have reminded us that people invest only when they expect to sell their goods and make a profit on them. The Treasury estimates that the people concerned, after forecasting those sales and profits, have decided not to increase their investment as a result of the Budget. Because of the sales and profits expected as a consequence of it, they have decided that that is the level of investment that shall continue. This is a formula for further stagnation and further economic and industrial decline.
We also expected and hoped to see the balance of payments surplus used properly and productively for the reduction of unemployment. As is partly shown by the Treasury's own forecast of investment, and other forecasts, it is becoming clear that unemployment is unlikely to decline. All that may have happened is that the Chancellor has succeeded in arresting the increase in unemployment, if that. So the present appalling waste of lives, manpower and output will continue. I put to the Prime Minister the other day the suggestion that unemployment was costing the country output worth £1,000 million a year. That is the sort of figure we are squandering. This must be seen against the Budget judgment.
The main, central aim of the Government's policy has obviously been to control inflation before doing anything else. All hon. Members must know in their heart of hearts that the level of unemployment is a consequence of that policy. It is the Government's direct responsibility, which they cannot shrug off. The relationship that the Government have sought to establish between necessarily high unemployment and the desire and need to reduce inflation is almost obscene in its connection, giving evidence that the Government have no other way to combat inflation than to leave unemployment as it is.

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I accept that inflation is an evil, though not the worst economic evil. There are worse, including unemployment, low growth and the decline in this country's industrial potential. We all know that if inflation makes it hard to sell goods abroad there are ways of combating that problem. But our present figures for exports of industrial goods are not bad. They continue to provide us overall with a balance of payments surplus. Inflation will, of course, raise prices at home but we have a vast amount of unused productive capacity which we can and should use but are failing to use.
The greatest condemnation of the Budget as a whole is that it has produced for the Government's supporters what they wanted, and has in turn created a more inegalitarian society than that which many of us hoped ever to see. This did not happen in the 1950s. It is necessary to draw a comparison between the present generation and the generation of Lord Butler and Mr. Macmillan, who remembered the past. They felt that in some way they had some responsibility for that past, for what happened in the 1930s, and they learned their lesson. In the words of the prayer that we have each day, they learned the necessity of uniting and knitting together. The Government have failed to understand the continuing need for this. They will eventually force their views upon the people, but the people will come to understand and oppose this Government's philosophy. I shall certainly be voting against it on Monday.
5.27 p.m.
Sir Gerald Nabarro: I am very pleased to be the first hon. Member on this side of the House to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Truro (Mr. Dixon) upon a splendid maiden speech. I recall with nostalgia and a great deal of pleasure at least four occasions when I have visited his constituency during the past 15 years, twice to the city of Truro and twice to the county part of his constituency. One notable occasion was a visit to Killaganoon House, when many thousands of his constituents attended a political rally on a Saturday afternoon. I hope to meet my hon. Friend there on future occasions,
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as I hope to listen to him with avidity and pleasure in the House, as I did today.
My hon. Friend is by profession a stockbroker, and he directed his comments most largely to financial matters and taxation, particularly as they affected the City of London. It is noteworthy that since my right hon. Friend's Budget on Tuesday, and including the drop in Bank Rate of 1 per cent. today, the Financial Times index of equities has risen by 24 points, as measured at 2.45 this afternoon. I draw that to the attention of my hon. Friend as a stockbroker, because he knows as I know that what is good for the City of London is good for Britain. [Laughter.]
Of course, we have the trade union cacophony from the benches opposite. People like the last speaker, the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon), who belly-ache endlessly about unemployment, fail to understand that unemployment is at such a high level today most largely because of the loss of business confidence. One thing this Budget will certainly do is to help restore the lost confidence eventuating from many years of Labour rule and Socialist policies, which are disastrous to capitalist expansion and profits.
When my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister agreed with me the other day at Question Time that really the cause of low investment in the private sector of British industry today is the virtual disappearance of profits—a condition of what might be described as "profitless prosperity"—we were really agreeing with one another that the turgid condition of investment is due to lack of confidence in the future and this very low level of profits—the lowest since the end of the war in relation to capital employed.
The Budget reflated the economy by at least the £680 million of reduced taxation revenue measured in a full year. Mr. Feather, the General Secretary of the T.U.C., demanded before the Budget that reflation should be conducted on a scale —and he named the figure, rather boldly —of £1,000 million. He said that was the degree of reflation required in order to bring down unemployment dramatically. My right hon. Friend's measures are not very far short of Mr. Feather's demand. In fact, the whole of the £680 million of reduced taxation revenue may correctly be interpreted as a reflationary measure.

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In addition to that, there will, of course, be the intangible results flowing from the lower level of Bank Rate by as much as 1 per cent. I say "intangible" because at this juncture we cannot quantify them in terms of the reaction on unemployment. We can say that, as a result of the dramatic drop of 1 per cent., instead of the cut being made in two stages of half of 1 per cent., there will certainly be more reflationary tendencies.
I wrote an article on the eve of the Budget, and I am not afraid to read it now. I like writing on the eve of the Budget—not as a prognosis, although my article did prove remarkably close to the words used by my right hon. Friend from his Treasury brief. I shall quote my words, and perhaps the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne will take the grin off his face and listen to those words of wisdom. They were printed in the London Evening News on 29th April. I said:
"Britain's economy is running down fast and business confidence for the future is waning. No Chancellor of the Exchequer this century has had to contend simultaneously on the eve of his Budget with high unemployment (more than three-quarters of a million), soaring prices (up by more than a third since 1965 and rising now more sharply than ever before), taxes doubled in the last seven years, strikes losing more than six times as many days as in 1963, the Stock Exchange on the floor, and Britain's biggest company, Imperial Chemical Industries, for example, paying an unprecedented 11 per cent. for 'blue chip' loans until the nineties."
All that adds up to great loss of confidence. This country will never recover full prosperity until absolute business confidence is restored, which only a Conservative Administration can accomplish. It is for all these reasons that I warmly congratulate my right hon. Friend on the best Budget since the war—far and away the best since the war and the one most likely to restore the waning confidence to which I have alluded.
First, I want to refer to four omissions from the Budget, all of which I hope will be repaired in the next few months. The first, which rather surprised me, was that my right hon. Friend took no notice at all of the Crowther Report. He does not accept Crowther's dictum that hire-purchase restrictions should virtually be abolished. This is a sad blow to the British motor industry, the greatest of all our exporters, for the British motor in-
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dustry last year exported about £1,000 million worth of tractors, motor cars, lorries and components.
Mr. Heffer: The highest paid, too.
Sir G. Nabarro: I agree—the highest paid. But I am not on the subject of wages. I made the observation that it is the largest exporting industry in Britain and it is therefore of signal importance that that industry is working approximately 20 per cent. below its maximum capacity. This is in large measure due to the depression of the home market.
I represent a constituency in the Midlands with many thousands of motor car workers. I am close to the sentiments of Birmingham and Coventry, which are the hub of the industry. Halewood is an outpost of the industry. I direct my shaft at the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heifer). Halewood is an outpost of the industry.
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must be careful of repetition.
Sir G. Nabarro: I direct my shaft at the hon. Member for Walton, who is hard of hearing on occasions.
Mr. Heffer: Only when he wants to be.
Sir G. Nabarro: It is memorable that, after the Chancellor's mini-budget of 27th October, 1970, Mr. Speaker, you called me quite early to ask a supplementary question. I asked my right hon. Friend then to ease hire-purchase restrictions on the motor trade because, if the industry is working at 20 per cent. below capacity, it is inevitable that prices rise, and this has a detrimental effect on the competitiveness of British motor cars, vehicles, spares and tractors in overseas markets. Since then, motor car prices have generally increased twice. I therefore make a further appeal to my right hon. Friend today to examine the position of the motor industry with a view to easing hire purchase restrictions, and I hope that we shall have a full discussion at an early date on the Crowther Report, which is so essential, in its concept and recommendations, to full employment.
The second omission I put to my right hon. Friend is in connection with the Tory Party's pledge—repeat, pledge —an absolute unequivocal pledge, in 1969, that, immediately power was resumed by a Conservative Government,

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they would abolish the iniquitous Socialist provision that bank loan and overdraft interest could not be admitted as a charge when assessing liability to personal income tax and surtax. There is no revisionary element in this Budget on that matter. It requires legislation to alter the Finance Act, 1969. I hope that my right hon. Friend, during the conclusion of the debate next Monday evening, will reassure all members of his party that this was an absolute pledge and that he will proceed to do so in the next few months.
The third omission from the Budget is in connection with unit trusts and capital gains duty thereon. I intervened yesterday in the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for the Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Tugendhat) when he was talking about unit trusts and capital gains duty and the slight alleviation by my right hon. Friend—for which I am grateful—to point out that the Tory Party gave an absolute pledge, similarly, in 1965, when the present Prime Minister, leading from the Opposition Front Bench as Shadow Chancellor, said that capital gains duty on unit trusts would absolutely be abolished.
I am not trading on any academic assurance in this matter but I ask my hon. Friend the Minister of State to have a look at a dividend warrant for a unit trust distribution. I examined one a few days ago in respect of a small holding owned by my daughter, aged 16. The element of capital gain shown on the dividend warrant was printed to six decimal places of the fraction of a penny. All this kind of thing on tens of thousands of distributions from unit trusts in infinitesimal amounts involves the Inland Revenue, accountants, bankers, trustees, professional men everywhere with the most appalling burden of unnecessary administrative work. It should be got rid of at an early date in respect of unit trusts, which represent a total investment of about £1,500 million from several millions of relatively very small investors, and the abolition of capital gains tax on unit trusts would represent a very large administrative saving.
Finally in this passage, I should like to thank my right hon. Friend for the alleviation in estate duty which will remove from the estate duty net a substantial
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number of small estates, estates put together by men and women of relatively modest means who leave sums of £10,000 to £12,000. The alleviation is only £2,500, up to £12,500, and in that sum is often their single major asset, the house which they owned and for which they paid on mortgage, probably subscribing all their lives, and most of it is taken up by the inflated value of the dwelling house, which may be £6,000, or £7,000, or £8,000.
I want a further alleviation, which would cost the Treasury very small sums. At present, the law dictates, administratively or otherwise I do not know, that a testator may give £500 maximum free of estate duty to another person. That was arranged 30 years or more ago, and the £500 is now grossly out of date and ought to be £1,000.
In exactly the same way as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer very kindly followed my contribution in the London Evening News of 29th March on the following day, and I am delighted with him for doing so—he could not have been more spot on—[Laughter.] I do not know what the hon. Member for Walton is laughing about.
Mr. Patrick Jenkin: I assure my hon. Friend that we read his article in the London Evening News and we were up all night rewriting my right hon. Friend's Budget.
Sir G. Nabarro: I noticed when my right hon. Friend announced this provision that he paused in his speech and bowed to me, and so I am not in any doubt that he read what I said. Here are the words:
"Maximum of £1,500 a year for self-employed pension provision instead of £750 at present, as enacted in 1956."
I had no Budget secrets, but I asked him to do it before he did it and he did it, which is the proper sequence, Mr. Speaker. You, as a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, will recall the sequence of events on many occasions previously. Will my right hon. Friend bring the £500 figure inter-vivos free of estate duty up to date and make it £1,000?
I want now to deal with the major section of my speech, which is in connection with indirect taxation. I am delighted to know that the Minister of State proposes to devote much of his

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speech this evening to indirect taxation. I am an unqualified supporter, and have been in the House for the last 16 years, of a general sales tax at a nondiscriminatory, equal rate of application over the widest possible base.
I remind Labour Members, most of whom were not in the House at the time, that when the Labour Government left office in 1951, 20 years ago, the range of rates of purchase tax was from 90 per cent. at the top to 5 per cent. at the bottom. The Tories made it a great deal worse by introducing many new rates, with the result that by the time 1958 arrived, seven years later, the top rate was still 66⅔ per cent. and the bottom rate 5 per cent., and in between there were seven rates.
Because all these discriminatory rates applied to hundreds upon hundreds of manufactured products of all kinds, sold by retail by tens of thousands of shopkeepers, there were the most appalling anomalies. That is why in 1958 1 embarked on 100 Parliamentary Questions in every quarter of 12 weeks before every Budget Statement for four consecutive years, 400 Parliamentary Questions in all, deliberately ridiculing the Treasury for these absurd anomalies and incongruities. By 1963 the Treasury had "got fell-in" very largely. It had adopted the Nabarro plan stage by stage. This has passed into history now; I am not boasting about it, but merely relating it.
The seven rates of 1958 were reduced to three rates by 1963. The top rate was 25 per cent., the next 15 per cent., and the bottom rate 5 per cent. It was the intention of the Conservative Government had they won the 1964 General Election—and they lost it by only five seats—to introduce a single, uniform non-discriminatory rate of indirect taxation right across the board. We lost the election by five seats and the 1966 election by 100 seats, and so reform receded further into the distance.
The hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne had not done his homework about purchase tax. What he did not realise was that the Labour Government put up the top purchase tax rate from 25 per cent. in 1964 to the inordinately high level of 55 per cent., where it now is.
Mr. Sheldon: I never said otherwise.
Sir G. Nabarro: The hon. Member now admits it. We have wrung one reluctant admission from him. We have wrung one reluctant admission from him. I say it a second time in case he did not hear it the first. He generally gets so irritated with me that he stalks out of the Chamber.
Not only is purchase tax ridiculously discriminatory today. The hon. Member raised a cheap laugh with his own side by referring to the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South and mentioning gramophone records immediately thereafter. I will give him a gramophone record from the purchase tax records. He quoted only that one item at 55 per cent., but I shall quote four. Cameras and cosmetics are two major items; gramophone records, of which he is so fond, and jewellery make the four, to say nothing of clocks, watches and furs, all at 55 per cent.
Who imagines that a wrist watch is a luxury item? Who imagines that gramophone records, mostly bought as "discs" by teenagers, are luxury items? Who imagines that the Savile Row suit I am wearing is one quarter as luxurious as a Brownie camera for a child? It has only to be expressed to be seen to be patently absurd. Of course this garment is a luxury article. But in inverted Socialist logic, this luxury garment is taxed at a rate one quarter only of the ubiquitous Brownie camera for a child. My suit is taxed at 13¾ per cent. Whereas the Brownie camera is taxed at 55 per cent. Who invented this fiscal gibberish—fiscal gibberish—how euphonious the term—of taxing motor cars, our biggest export, at 36⅔ per cent. and liqueur chocolates at 22 per cent.?
So I could go through the whole gamut of fiscal absurdity. In case anybody is in any doubt about the amount of money involved in the Budget, and in case people think I am playing the fool—[Laughter.] It may sound funny, but I am not playing the fool in financial terms; nobody in the House can understand financial statistics better than I.
In 1960–61, 10 years ago, purchase tax raised £510 million. When the Tories left office in 1964 it was raising only £565 million. In the last year of Socialist

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rule, 1970–71 it was raising £1,280 million. The Labour Government put £715 million on to purchase tax, from £565 million up to £1,280 million. Not only are the rates highly discriminatory but they are directed at far too narrow a base. We all know the arguments against S.E.T. and I will not regale hon. Members with them this afternoon.
The selective employment tax is as highly inflationary as purchase tax because all of the tax goes straight on to prices in the shops and to the consumer. All purchase tax goes straight on to prices in the shops. The building industry alone paid £100 million in selective employment tax this year, prior to the reductions, all of which went straight on to the price of houses. Everyone who has a shirt or a garment laundered pays an extra 15 per cent. on account of S.E.T. I could go through the whole gamut. I rejoice that my right hon. Friend is abolishing S.E.T. and abolishing purchase tax and putting in their place an overall low level value-added tax which is no more than a general sales tax, as the Green Paper spells out.
This is what I wrote in the Weekend Telegraph—[Interruption.] It is no good the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) gasping. He will have to suffer it and have it read. What I wrote in the Weekend Telegraph on 31st May, 1968, was this:
"SUMPTUARY (INDIRECT TAx): An Added-Value tax as evolved in France and West Germany, totally rebated on exports. It should be spread on a broad base, replacing all present Customs and Excise duties, Selective Employment Tax, Purchase Tax, Betting Duties and Road Fund Licences. It would be a flat rate tax and un-cognisant of so-called luxury. It would raise more than present indirect taxes, which would allow a reduction of direct Personal Taxation. Lower income groups not paying direct taxes would be compensated through social welfare benefits and pensions, for any increased living costs caused by the Added-Value Tax."
That is exactly what my right hon. Friend is doing; that is exactly what is contained in the Green Paper. I reject absolutely that an arrangement of this kind will involve an additional 6,000 or 8,000 officials.
The ultimate additional officialdom, if at all, will depend directly on the length of the accounting period, and whereas the Green Paper talked about the length
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of the accounting period being three months, I shall press for it to be 12 months and for payment to be based on an auditor's certificate of the accounts of the company, partnership or business involved, because 99·5 per cent. of all businesses in this country have their accounts audited. An auditor's certificate as to value-added tax based on a 12-month accounting period instead of a three-month period as postulated in the Green Paper, and only postulated, would reduce the ranks of officialdom by 80 per cent.
We are not pledged to adopt a value-added tax because the Europeans have it. The adoption of a value-added tax has nothing whatever to do with our going into Europe. The hon. Member for Heywood and Royton let slip halfway through his speech that, although he was in favour of going into Europe, he was against a value-added tax. My position is exactly the opposite. I am against going into Europe but for all fiscal and equity reasons I am in favour of a value-added tax.
All that has happened in the last 12 to 18 months is that propaganda has been spread through the country to the effect that a value-added tax will raise prices, increase the ranks of officialdom, be inflationary, and bear hardly on the less well paid and the poorer sections of the community. I reject all of those arguments. A value-added tax, I firmly believe, will reduce prices on account of its much wider base. Secondly, it will reduce costs on account of its relative ease of collection. Thirdly, it will prove absolutely equitable over the whole field of indirect taxation.
I do not want this form of tax restricted to those items which at present attract purchase tax; I want it spread over the whole area of indirect taxation, to include cigarettes and tobacco, alcohol, wines and spirits and beer: I want it to be spread over hydrocarbon duties so that all indirect taxes are brought within the ambit of the value-added tax. Then, as my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen said yesterday, we should amalgamate social welfare benefits and payments into our income tax system. By this means, the two formulae running side by side, we shall achieve administrative simplicity on the first hand, absolute

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equity throughout the economy on the second hand, and the reduction of prices on the third hand.
Those who think that a value-added tax is inflationary might care to sit down and do a calculation on the value-added tax at 10 per cent. as applicable to Scotch whisky. At present the duty on Scotch whisky per bottle is 44s. Id. The wholesale cost of the whisky is 5s. 9d. so that the wholesale price of the whisky is 49s. 10d. The incidence of whisky duty is of the order of 750 per cent. Were a value-added tax charged at 10 per cent. on Scotch whisky, the retail price of a bottle of Scotch might be 15s.
6.57 p.m.
Mr. Peter Shore: I have listened with interest to the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro). Perhaps I can put one point to him which arises from his concluding remarks, when he was expounding his fiscal philosophy. He cited the case of Scotch whisky and pointed out what would happen if we were to replace the present very high Excise duty with a value-added tax. Obviously the rate of taxation on a bottle of Scotch would be very much lower. But when he invites us, as it were, to take this wholly unselective view of taxation he can surely think of another commodity which is sold and taxed very highly and on which I do not believe he would wish to see that tax severely reduced. I refer to the tax on cigarettes. The hon. Gentleman, for perfectly good, sensible, excellent reasons, would be the first to denounce the Government Front Bench if they were to adopt his views in that respect.
It would be wrong to use the time that I have to chase the hon. Gentleman, interesting as it would be, through the mazes of his fiscal philosophy. He said earlier that he had become aware of certain omissions in the Chancellor's Budget and mentioned a few. The subject of omissions is already a recurring theme in the debate and it will increase as the days and weeks go by.
As my right hon. Friend said last night, the joy with which this Budget was first received—most notably, and perfectly naturally, in the City, though perhaps reasonably it was well received elsewhere—on Day 1 was already turning quite sharply to something quite different, on
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Day 2, when the rest of the Budget and, above all, the details of the new and very heavy tax masquerading as a social security charge became known when the Secretary of State made his statement yesterday. People everywhere are now beginning to take the measure of the Budget, and I have a feeling that the conclusions they will reach will on the whole not only be unfavourable to the Budget itself, but gloomy as to its impact on the economy and on the outlook for the economy as a whole. I say, with regret, that I believe those feelings of gloom to be justified.
That takes me, not frankly pursuing the Financial Secretary through the trivialities of his speech, and it was a trivial speech—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It was a trivial speech about, basically, taxes and their impact, as he saw them, on the economy, with hardly a word about the prospects for the economy as a whole. If any hon. Gentleman thinks that for most people their welfare, their outlook, their satisfaction and their happiness are affected more by what the Chancellor of the Exchequer does on one day a year in either lowering or raising taxes than by the prosperity of the community and the nation, he is very wrong. People are influenced very much more by the course of the economy as a whole and by a 101 influences and measures than by tax changes which are made only once in a year.
I turn to the Financial Statement for 1971–72—a depressing document—and I draw attention to the first and most striking feature of the figures in it and, indeed, in the Chancellor's speech. It is perfectly clear to anyone who reads the document that the Government have made an important and, to us, quite unacceptable decision about the level of unemployment. This is the outstanding feature of the Budget. It is the first Budget that I can recall, certainly in the post-war period, in which a Government sitting comfortably on a substantial balance of trade surplus have produced a Budget as a result of which they know that an intolerably high level of unemployment will continue for at least a year ahead. I am afraid that this will happen because even on the Chancellor's figures, as also in this document, the forecast is that the growth of the economy will be of the order of 3·1 per cent., but even if

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that figure were to be achieved, and there are reasons to doubt it, I do not believe that it would have any effect at all on the level of unemployment which, I think, will rise, certainly for some months ahead.
Why will that predicted growth not have any effect on the level of unemployment? Many reasons can be given but one in particular impresses me. An estimated growth of 3·1 per cent. is very near what is thought to be the productive potential of the economy; in other words, in itself it is roughly equal to no change in employment, but this comes on top of two years of very low growth. In 1969 the economy grew by about 2 per cent. and 1970 was also a year of very low and unsatisfactory growth. We now have a really big margin of unused capacity in the economy, and I should be very surprised if the economy could not take on in terms of output or G.D.P. well over 3 per cent. without having any effect on reducing unemployment. That I am afraid, is the prospect as I see it.
If that is so, it has very important and disquieting implications to the 750,000 people who are unemployed. Unemployment, not just for a brief spell in a deep and unhappy winter, but going ahead over the whole of the coming year, is a very wretched social experience for far too many of our fellow countrymen. There will be a bitterness in the climate of relations in our society and in employer-worker relations, too, which we could certainly do without.
In addition, an appalling waste is involved. I do not here think only in terms of output, or even in terms of the kind of calculations which so appal hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, who are always upset when working days are lost through strikes. I can understand that being a legitimate concern, but the House should recognise that if we were only to reduce the level of unemployment from the present 750,000 to 500,000 during the course of the year we would gain about 60 million working days. If that fact were related to the number of days lost through strikes—last year was probably the worst we have had, with about 10 million days lost in that way—hon. Members opposite would see the relevance of this piece of arithmetic. But I do not want them to think that that
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is our only reason for concern about unemployment.
If I am right, and if the Chancellor of the Exchequer is right—because it is he who has estimated that the economy will grow at that rate, and that, therefore, unemployment will not fall but will remain roughly at the same level—the right hon. Gentleman can just forget about his regional policy for at least a year, and probably for longer. We can forget about intermediate areas, development areas and special development areas—there simply will not be sufficient mobile industry. It is simply no good trying to attract industry when there is insufficient buoyancy in the economy to get those who are thinking of investing to wish to invest.
There are a few other key figures involved, and I and one or two others of my hon. Friends find the picture of the economy in the year 1971–72 given by the document depressing, not only because investment is predicted to rise by only half of one per cent., but also because the growth of exports is put at this very low figure of 2·3 per cent. while the import figure is estimated to be of the order of 6·3 per cent. In other words, the relationship between exports and imports is again expected to deteriorate, which will have implications for the balance of payments.
I wish to say a few words about the balance of payments, but I am afraid that they will not be very comforting. We have a strong balance of payments—more than £600 million, the highest figure on record. That is very good. But we should be deluding ourselves if we did not recognise that the figure is to some extent inflated by the depressed level of the economy last year. About £130 million of last year's balance of payments surplus could be accounted for by the fact that the rate of growth was 2 per cent. rather than 3 per cent. plus which the forecasters last year hoped we would achieve. That would bring a surplus of about £500 million a year, which I think is probably the right figure, assuming that a more reasonable level of growth could be maintained.
But what does that imply for the future, assuming that this is the basic balance and that the Chancellor gets his 3 per cent. increase in output? The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry said yesterday that he had some worries about

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the future. He drew attention to three factors. The first was the extent of our indebtedness, which should not be lightly dismissed. These are debts which must be repaid. Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman said:
"A second and no less vital factor is our application for membership of the European Economic Community, even when a satisfactory negotiation has taken place, is likely to cause a net outflow of exchange…".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st March, 1971; Vol. 814, c. 1542.]
The third was the recent and unhappy developments over the price of oil. The Chancellor costed them at about £64 million on the direct balance of payments but did not give a figure for the effect on invisibles, which I think will be quite considerable.
Unfortunately, the Government have not given us a medium-term assessment of the economy. All we have is an assessment for one year. They must have made some estimates for three to five years ahead, and not just simply in terms of public expenditure. Assuming that they have looked three to five years ahead, as any sensible large 'organisation must do, what is the picture? We know our debt repayments schedule. Adding together the I.M.F. debt repayment schedule and the Anglo-American immediate post-war long-term debt annual repayment, we have to pay back roughly £350 million each year in 1971 and 1972. I am glad that a large advance payment was announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Obviously money has been pouring into London because of our exceptionally high Bank Rate. But it would not be desirable for that to continue, and perhaps it will not continue after today's announcement.
There is the last of the I.M.F. borrowings which we made in 1969 which must be paid in 1973–74. Taking into account our I.M.F. debt and our long-term payments, we shall have to pay about £300 million each year. Therefore, over the next four years, we shall be faced with debt repayments of about £300 to £350 million in each year. If I am right in thinking that the balance of payments surplus on the basis of a 3 per cent. growth is £500 million, the margins available for further reflation or to guard against deterioration in our competitiveness are not very large.
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I have taken no account of the extra oil payments, nor of other items which will occur to most people, such as the possible implications of renegotiating the Basle Agreement later this year. If the Government are successful in their application to join the E.E.C., they must take account of the first payments to the Common Market in 1973 and 1974. Taking the figures of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, in view of the Budget contribution and the deteriorating trade effect which the right lion. Gentleman anticipates, there will be in those two years a further deterioration of about £80 million at best in 1973, and probably about £160 million 1974. In other words, even on the basis of an amateur projection of the figures over the next five years, the surplus totally disappears almost within the first year of the transitional period.
I mention that matter, not only to reflect the anxiety which I have felt for a long time, but to warn my colleagues and the Government against complacency and to urge upon them the need to take early and effective action to use an opportunity which is not as great as it may look and which unfortunately could rapidly fade away, namely, to take action to expand the economy and to deal with the problems which we know exist in a way which will not put us right back where we were and have been during most of the past ten years.
I am getting very worried, as are other hon. Members, about the general impact of the Government's policies. I am open-minded about taxes and I always listen with great interest to people who say that a particular tax is not very effective. But if people were as simple as the Financial Secretary seemed to imply, and if all we needed to do to stimulate economic activity and to stimulate people to perform well economically was to relieve their taxes, I am sure that the country would have been successful many years ago. The Chancellor's predecessors had a similar philosophy during most of the 1950s. It was not as extreme or pungent as that of the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South but it followed broadly the same path.
It was always one of the proudest boasts of the Conservative Party in the years up to 1964 that they had cut taxation and liberated the enterprise of people. But the economy did not respond

1759
sufficiently. I cannot understand why right hon. Gentlemen still give this exaggerated rôle to the impact of taxation and why, against all the evidence of experience, they completely ignore the supply side of the economy. They knew in the first years of the 1960s that certain situations faced certain industries which could not be solved by remote fiscal measures. They had actually to intervene in the economy to relate fiscal measures to particular problems on the supply side.
The hon. Member for Worcestershire, South mentioned four omissions, one of which was the lack of any direct relevance in the Budget to the problems of the motor car industry. As he pointed out, if an output near to capacity is not achieved in the motor car industry heavy additional costs are incurred. To think that we can run the economy by pretending that there is no difference in the response between a capital intensive and a labour intensive industry is to be extremely naive and to make certain of failure.
The Government are entitled to have strong views on taxation and to change taxes, but what I deplore is that, against all the evidence, they have destroyed every means available to them for intervening in the economy to make industries more efficient and more competitive, and to help to save imports. These objectives, and the means of achieving them, have suddenly been swept away as though they were no longer of relevance to our economy and to the future. There will be a retribution. The outlook is depressing, not merely for the short-term forecast period ahead but further ahead. I should welcome comments from hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Front Bench if they have a different view and a different set of figures for the period I have described.
The Government have been given a great opportunity by this strong surplus, and they cannot afford to fritter it away. This is the time to go for measured growth. The 3 per cent. target is too low. It will not affect unemployment and will not produce sufficient buoyancy in the economy. On the other hand, I am not asking the Government to do what the present Home Secretary
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did in 1963–64. There must surely be a reasonable level of activity. We must stimulate the economy, but between these two extremes.
I would certainly go for growth. Cost inflation will not be solved by the measures which the Government are using. I do not think anyone seriously expects them to be successful in this. What is required is direct action on prices and perhaps on incomes as well. The idea that we can sit back in the hope that the level of wage settlements will diminish step by step while doing nothing about prices is an illusion which we cannot afford to live with. The Government should look again at the supply side of the economy and consider whether either their fiscal measures or more direct intervention can be related to what practical people, rather than fiscal theorists will tell them about the real needs of the economy.
7.25 p.m.
Mr. Richard Hamby: At the diagnosis of the right hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Shore) and the way in which he thought things should go now, I can only gasp in amazement. One member of the last Government after another has said that the time is ripe for the introduction of direct measures on incomes and prices, and yet all the troubles of 1970 are attributable to the retreat from such policies in 1969. We need to bear the troubles of 1970 firmly in mind when we consider whether the current policies advocated by my right hon. Friend are sufficiently reflationary to deal with the admitted problem of unemployment.
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the content and the method of presentation of his Budget. The Budget makes a start in fulfilling several pledges and has set us on the road towards tax reduction, which is widely recognised as being necessary. A great many people, within this country and without, have seen us for many years as an over-taxed country, and this has been doing us harm. The Budget takes significant steps towards simplifying tax procedures. For too long we have ignored the connection between the cost of tax collection on the one hand and the return of those taxes on the other. Important steps have been taken to simplify capital gains tax and to amalgamate income tax and surtax.

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I also congratulate my right hon. Friend on what must have been a major managerial achievement in pushing through these reforms despite all the difficulties which an exercise of this dimension involves. I do not mean to imply that there is necessarily quite as much resistance to these reforms either in the Treasury or in the Inland Revenue as some hon. Members have suggested. The sheer process of change is extremely arduous, as any manager knows. To have done as much as he has done in the Budget is a tremendous achievement both for him and for staff of the Inland Revenue, who work such long hours of overtime at Budget time.
I do not associate myself with those who take the view that the annual Budget is an antiquated procedure which should be quietly set aside. The Green Papers are helpful to us in taking a longer view, but we also need the annual review, or something like it, as a regular measuring post. We need to have some degree of certainty and to know the length of time during which decisions are likely to run.
It is not true to say that the annual Budget makes policy wholly inflexible. We have only to look at the number of autumn Budgets or mini-budgets which have occurred in recent years, at the regulator, at the opportunities for changing monetary policy, and at the opportunities for direct investment decisions to realise that the annual Budget does not necessarily mean having an inflexible financial policy which runs from one 12-month period to another.
I wish at this point to strike one note of warning. Although a Budget can do much, it cannot by itself do everything. My view is that this Budget is to some extent the prisoner of the state of play in the incomes field. We cannot talk about the Budget without looking at what has been going on in regard to incomes. We cannot afford to ignore the 1970 record of earnings, which went up by 14 per cent., or that prices have risen by 8 per cent., that production has gone up by 1 or 2 per cent. and that investment has been virtually stagnant. That is the sad record of 1970. If we ignore that picture, and if it is allowed to continue, we are in for a further series of price rises with all that is involved—hardship, lost orders. more unemployment, and so on.
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I believe that there is now a change of mood on the part of many people in regard to the respective dangers and hardships that flow on the one hand from inflation and on the other hand from unemployment. I recognise the real and damaging hardship and personal wounds which are inflicted by loss of work, but there is a growing realisation that inflation is no less a danger and often causes no less hardship. One could say that inflation has been to German minds what unemployment has been to British minds. There is the growing realisation that continuing inflation, which we have suffered through a series of Governments, is causing major damage to our social services, to retired people and to the value of pensions, as well as to the prospects of growth for the future. There is now a feeling that this must stop. We must not minimise the dangers of unemployment. We have reached the point at which many people take the view that inflation itself is a cause of unemployment and of the situation in which we find ourselves today. This in many ways is a disturbing fact. It is also a realistic view.
We know that there are many causes of inflation and unemployment, among them excessive taxation, excessive wage claims, low managerial efficiency, low productivity and so on. The two most significant facts in regard to the current unemployment figures, which have shown a disturbing rise, are, first, that corporate costs have been running too high, and, secondly, that the cash in companies has been running short and they have been compelled to sign off people to a greater degree than before. Because of rising costs companies have sometimes—though this has not occurred so much in 1970 when the export position has not been too bad—been losing orders as well.
The Budget, through reductions in corporation tax and selective employment tax, is attempting to help companies keep costs down and to reverse the present trend. The danger is that if private industry uses the opportunities given by the Budget, not to help to keep costs down but simply to finance more excessive wage claims, then opportunities for further growth will he lost, and there will be—and this is a warning to the trade unions—danger of further unemployment.

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Baroness Wootton, whose views are respected in all parties, in a recent broadcast, which was reported in The Listener, put her finger on the problem when she said:
"Nowadays there are very powerful unions who say 'We will push up wages and we do not give a fig for the unemployed'."
Judging from the history of certain wage claims at present I am afraid that regrettably this is true. It is because wages have been pushed up beyond the level of what productivity can stand that some other people have sometimes lost their jobs. This trend must be reversed.
For this reason, although we would like to have aimed for a higher growth rate than 3 per cent. in the coming year and would like to have reflated faster than perhaps seems possible at the moment until the wage trend is slowed down to a greater degree than has yet occurred, the Chancellor has been forced to a certain amount of caution even in a Budget which has reduced taxes to the extent it has. If we do not succeed then we shall be forced back to conditions which neither employers nor trade unions want. The history of the Labour Government proves that nobody wants to go back to a wage and price freeze with all its interventionism which employers and the T.U.C. dislike. If current policies fail and come to grief on the rock of excessive wage claims unrelated to productivity, this is where we shall land up for there will be nowhere else to turn.
It has been suggested by some hon. Gentlemen, and indeed in The Times, that we should now be thinking about an incomes policy. I would regard it as a policy of despair that we should be thinking of turning in that direction, because I feel that, if given a chance, current methods can succeed. If pressures grow too great we shall be forced back to the wasteful and disliked policies of compulsory interventionism.
The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) suggested that this was a rich man's Budget. Is it so unfair that a man should be allowed to keep 25 per cent. of what he earns at the top end of the earnings scale? Have hon. Members opposite looked at the comparison of marginal tax rates in the Financial Times today?
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They will see that the new rate for Britain of 75 per cent. at the maximum, after the Budget compares with 65 per cent. in Sweden, 60 per cent. in the United States, 53 per cent. in Germany and 46·5 per cent, in France. Therefore, it is hardly true to say that this is a rich man's Budget when we are still at the top of the international percentage scale.
The former Chancellor mentioned the concession for married women and commented that this largely helped surtax payers. Is that so wrong when we bear in mind that some of the people who have suffered most in this category from previous policies have been the professionally trained—for instance, married women doctors, whose skills are needed? Is it really a sensible comment to say that it is the surtax payer who is gaining there?
The right hon. Gentleman said that investment grants had been discarded just when they were most needed. I suggest that the record of investment grants, which we have looked at time and again, does not suggest that they achieved what had been intended in most of the regional areas which needed them.
I refer now to the general gibe that this is a two-nation Budget. Looking at what has been done in the pensions sphere, the announcement made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services about supplementary benefits, and the allowances which have been made across the board, it is neither correct nor helpful to suggest that this is what the Budget is about. If we are considering a policy of two nations at present, that two-nation policy comes from those who time and again, as Baroness Wootton said, have sought to grab 30 per cent., 20 per cent. or whatever it may be, for themselves regardless of the prices being passed on to many people who could not so easily fend for themselves. There is the two-nation policy to a far greater degree than anything which can be pointed at in this Budget.
Finally, two small points for the future which are not in the Budget. The first concerns incentives. I believe that many people feel that if managerial incentives are needed to stimulate greater efficiency,

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the Government would do well to see whether any means could be developed to enable executives to purchase shares in their own companies.
Secondly—perhaps a rather more eccentric point—there has been much discussion about rapidly growing populations in the world. In this Budget we have used the child allowance as the simplest method of helping many people. It is a singularly convenient method, and it is important low down in the income scale. If we mean what we say—I believe that we need to think harder about a genuine national population policy and many factors of it—financial considerations come in. I wonder, therefore, whether the child allowance right up the scale, however many children and so on, is necessarily the most appropriate method of giving tax relief.
I conclude as I began by congratulating my right hon. Friend on his Budget. I believe that it is about right in its judgment of how much can be done for the present. It sets us on much firmer foundations, and, provided that both unions and management recognise the dangers which can stem from increased wage claims unrelated to productivity, I believe that we can go ahead to a more successful economy than in the past.
7.45 p.m.
Mr. David Ginsburg: The hon. Member for Tonbridge (Mr. Hornhy) delivered a very thoughtful speech, and he finished with some remarks on child and family allowances which may sound somewhat unorthodox in the present climate. I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I think that in the years ahead it may be necessary to review this aspect of our fiscal arrangements.
The hon. Gentleman, who is not a doctrinaire politician, gave us some interesting observations on cost inflation and wages pressure. Nevertheless, if I had to choose between the view that he and the Government are advocating and that expressed by his right hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples),I think that this Government, like all Governments, will have to learn certain things the hard way and that we shall have to come back to some form of voluntary incomes policy if we are to solve our problems and move forward to faster growth.
Mr. Hornby: The hon. Gentleman has spoken of a voluntary policy. It was the directive from the centre, not the voluntary policy, to which I was calling attention.
Mr. Ginsburg: I take the hon. Gentleman's point, but I should like to move on.
The Chancellor has rightly been complemented on the clarity of his exposition. Essentially, he put forward a Budget in two halves—certain long-term strategy and certain immediate measures for dealing with the present situation.
On the long-term strategy and tax reforms, I should like to comment briefly on one aspect of the leader in The Times yesterday which, in effect, was saying, "This is a Tory Government, and it is right that it should introduce long-term Tory tax measures." I could not agree with that comment.
A simple argument can be deployed here. Basically—I hope that even the Financial Secretary might agree—we need a measure of consensus on the long-term tax reforms. I am not necessarily arguing about the rates, but about the tax structure.
One thing which worries me about the operation of party Government—this does not necessarily apply only in the tax sphere; it applies in other administrative areas—is that when Governments change we tend to change far too quickly systems of administration which require many years to settle down. It is right that the barnacles of centuries should be removed from our tax system, but I cannot help being worried that, over the decade 1964–1974, the two main parties in this House will have submitted the tax system to a violent shaking up.
It is important that long-term changes, whatever party is in power, should not be rushed; they should be deliberated by Parliament over a long period, not just in the Finance Bill. No doubt the Government would say that to some extent they are in sympathy with me, because they are publishing Green Papers. But the comment has been made by myself and many hon. Members in previous debates that, within the system of Government, we need a pre-legislative Committee which can examine and

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scrutinise long-term changes so that, when they come about, they are, broadly speaking, acceptable to the country as a whole.
These long-term measures proposed by the Chancellor, though important, do not bear on the immediate situation. The crucial question is whether the British economy will grow, whether it will stagnate, or whether it will actually recess. These are the options in the year 1971–72. I think that hon. Members will agree that the answer to this question will determine history's view of this Budget, not whether the Green Papers are good documents or not.
In deciding whether the Chancellor's Budget judgment is right we have to look at the full picture. In my view, we should at least look at the general economic diagnosis of my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) when Chancellor in April, 1970, at the mini-budget of 27th October, and at this Budget.
My right hon. Friend estimated growth on unchanged policies at 3 per cent. for the first half of 1970–71. He took the view that it was necessary to accelerate growth by ½ per cent. to 3½ per cent., and he brought in measures of relaxation which resulted in the injection of £220 million in a full year. At the time, he was criticised for being too cautious, though I freely admit that I advocated caution. But he added that, if it were found that we had been too cautious, he could correct the misjudgment later in the year. I will return to that comment when I come to the mini-budget.
It is now clear that the growth factors that my right hon. Friend forecast did not fully materialise. Instead of a growth of 3 or 3½ per cent., which is what the last Government sought, we now have 2 per cent. The present Chancellor wants to reach a figure of 3 per cent., which my right hon. Friend already had. To achieve it he says that he will reduce the Government's revenue receipts by £680 million in a full year. I want to be generous to the right hon. Gentleman. That is a bigger injection than many hon. Members on both sides of the House expected. However, it is much less than £680 million when one has regard to National Insurance contributions and so on.
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The injection that the Government have undertaken in all probability will not be enough. It may be enough to get some more growth and to halt the rise in unemployment, but it will not be enough to bring down unemployment.
Mr. Patrick Jenkin: I am not sure that I have understood the hon. Gentleman. He said that the injection was not as great after taking into account National Insurance contributions. If he takes those into account, he must also take into account the benefits. The degree of reduction in taxation is the figure in the Red Book by itself.
Mr. Ginsburg: I know. I do not want to become involved in too semantic an argument. I am referring to the Chancellor's speech where he spoke of £680 million and went on to say that that was not the amount by which he was injecting new purchasing power into the economy. That is the significant point that I seek to make and, therefore, I do not think that it will be enough to bring down unemployment.
However much one is generous to the Chancellor for what he has done in this Budget, one cannot say the same of his mini-budget. On that occasion, what he gave away in tax reliefs he balanced by cuts in expenditure. In my view, the stagnation of the economy and the growth in unemployment were in considerable part due to the mini-budget. It could be argued that the autumn was the time to take expansionary measures, as my right hon. Friend implied in his own Budget speech last April. Timing is the key to good economic management. Last October, the Chancellor missed the bus.
Leaving aside the general economic judgment, I come on to consider specific measures taken by the Government as an aid to their employment policy. The reduction of unemployment is the key test by which the efficacy of this Budget should be judged. Therefore, I wish to comment on S.E.T., irrespective of its merits or demerits as a revenue raiser, about which the two sides of the House hold differing views.
There is sound sense in a doctrine which states that taxes which bear directly on employment should be administered flexibly. There is a case for raising employment taxes at moments of over-full employment and reducing them when

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the labour market is easy. In last year's Budget debate, I said that I saw limits to the potential value of S.E.T. as a revenue raiser because it had to be viewed in combination with the growing responsibilities that employers had to carry for health and social security contributions and, therefore, that it could conceivably become a brake on full employment.
The Chancellor takes credit for reducing S.E.T. by half to £290 million. In that sense, it is quite a shot in the arm for employers. But it should also be pointed out that what the Chancellor gives with one hand he takes away with the other. He is raising the employer's contribution for retirement pensions and social security by roughly 65p per week. He is taking away half the saving. In saying that, I do not mean over the whole economy. I refer simply to the position of employers and how far it is an incentive to the employment of labour.
It could be argued that manufacturers, who are less hard-hit by S.E.T, will be worse off as a result of the increased employer's contributions. Thus the S.E.T. refund is of limited full employment value. I think that there is a case this year—and perhaps the Government will consider it even at this late stage —for a greater Exchequer contribution to the National Insurance Fund. As the level of employment rises, if it does, the contribution from the Exchequer to the National Insurance Fund can be reduced. When Lord Beveridge produced the present National Insurance Scheme, he had this policy in mind.
Moving on to the problems of investment, the Chancellor is rightly concerned about cost inflation. The best way of fighting cost inflation is by greater productivity; in other words, through more capital investment. Here again, one has anxieties about the Budget. The reduction in corporation tax will help, but the total effect of the measures in the mini-Budget will be to help companies to invest in the future. It will not help them invest in the immediate present, which is what one would prefer.
The measures taken in the mini-budget to end grants and go for allowances were doctrinal, and the mini-budget has contributed severely to our investment difficulties. This Budget has done little to
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ease them. I ask hon. Members to consider the present crisis in the machine tool industry and to pose the rhetorical question: what are the Government doing to help in that respect? Taking an example in my own constituency, I was grateful when the Financial Secretary announced last July a welcome concession on depreciation allowances for three-shift wool textile machinery working. But there has been no direct incentive from the Government which would have helped the more marginal firms, and these are the firms which need help. It is the closure of some of these marginal firms which is exacerbating the employment position.
In the mini-budget, not only were investment incentives reviewed but the Chancellor promised to trim the princely sum of about £5 million from the science research associations. I cannot imagine that all hon. Gentlemen opposite are happy with this policy. What is wrong with the British Government's scientific effort is not its scale—it is substantial—but its deployment. If the Chancellor wants to save —5 million which is somehow being wasted on unprofitable scientific research, I would gladly take him on an exercise into the aircraft or nuclear power industries.
There has been a misdirected and unprofitable exercise by Governments of both parties in prestige scientific projects. Britain, I am afraid, has the contradictory record of a very high R. and D. in science and a very low growth, but it is surely a mistake to go for the research associations as focuses of scientific extravagance, because they are the admiration of other countries.
My main criticism of the Budget is an economic one. I doubt its judgment, I have reservations about its effectiveness for full employment and investment, but there is also, of course, the equity argument which my hon. Friends have deployed and which I share. The rate of inflation justified an earlier rise in the pension and it would also be good for growth if there were an early increase. I wonder whether a summer holiday payment of the pension could not be the Government's aim. This too would stimulate the economy.
I echo the warning about prescription charges. Perhaps I should declare an interest here. I am a director of a market

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research company which researches in pharmaceuticals. There may be a marginal case for a basic charge which shifts treatment of minor ailments from the surgery to the chemist. It is arguable that it is cheaper to get an aspirin or an antacid from the chemist around the corner than to take up a doctor's time and pay fares and 2s. 6d. But it is another matter to introduce differential charges for medicines. This will lead to very bad medicine. The public may even shift their patronage to a doctor who they know prescribes cheaply rather than ones who prescribe dear products. This could even mean moving from the thorough to the slipshod doctor.
Apart from the question of employment, the greatest error of the Budget is its omission. There is no policy for tackling inflation, merely platitudes. I do not pretend that the problems of inflation in society can not be solved without high investment and an incomes policy. The two go together. Unless the Government actively seek a solution based on a dialogue, on national harmony and unity, they will not, however clever their tax reforms, succeed.
8.4 p.m.
Sir Brandon Rhys Williams: I was delighted that I was present to hear the maiden speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Truro (Mr. Dixon). I have known him for some 30 years as a person of particular independence and humour. He made an outstanding maiden speech today. I think that all hon. Members will feel that the Celtic fringes will not lose their reputation for wit and free-thinking while he is a Member of the House. I hope that he will be a Member for just as many years as he feels inclined.
I trust that the Chancellor will not think that I do not appreciate his great reforming Budget if, in a short speech, I touch only on the particular aspects which interest me especially. I suppose that, when a Chancellor feels that he is able to remit taxation, he then has to take the difficult decision whether to spread the tax reliefs as widely as possible in pursuit of numerical electoral advantage, or to be more interested in justice and in protecting the interests of minority groups. I congratulate my
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right hon. Friend on having chosen to concentrate help on particular areas where it is especially needed and justified.
For instance, this week's package has brought help particularly to widows, the chronic sick, the old, especially the very old, those receiving supplementary benefits and, of course—last but not least—the surtax payers. I am disappointed that hon. Members opposite should seek to take the credit for the amalgamation of surtax and income tax and yet should cavil so much at the reduction of the rates which is being introduced at the same time. They may find that, once the hands are released from the throat of the goose that lays the golden eggs, the results will be extremely gratifying to all concerned.
It is one of the strange anomalies that a party dedicated apparently to equality should have brought in the selective employment tax, which is nothing if not unequal; and that a party apparently dedicated to selectivity should be committed to abolishing it. It is all part of the political transvestism which makes our two-party system work.
Although some hon. Gentlemen opposite have shown some regret at the passing of the selective employment tax, I have not heard any of them yet pledge to restore it if they should ever be returned to power; but I shall of course listen attentively to the remaining speeches in the hope of catching them in that grave mistake.
My particular objection to the selective employment tax is not that it is a tax on employment, because I have believed for a number of years that employers in this country do not make a sufficiently large contribution to the financing of the social services. On the Continent, employers pay a much larger proportion on top of wages into the local equivalents of the National Insurance Fund. I recognise that it might be said that we are giving our exporters an advantage in that we do not place such heavy direct taxation on them, but the deficiencies in our social service system can be remedied only if employers are required to make a larger contribution.
Therefore, it is the selectivity of S.E.T. which I am glad to see go. In this

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Budget, it is being replaced to some extent by an increase in employer's contributions right away. It is not in the current year to be replaced by a value-added tax, but by increases in earnings-related contributions to National Insurance. This is something which I have pressed my right hon. Friend to consider, and I am deighted that he has gone some way in what I believe to be the right direction.
I feel in particular that it is the right direction, because earnings-related contributions to pension schemes are not a tax. They might be called a levy. They are in fact a form of forced savings. What we need more than anything else in the British economy is a switch from consumption into saving. I am delighted that a start has been made.
Mr. Taverne: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a difficulty about this, that if earnings-related contributions do not result in any earnings-related benefits, they become much more like a tax?
Sir B. Rhys Williams: I will come to that shortly because it is another aspect of our political transvestism which is worthy of note.
There is obviously a certain degree of parti pris about the valued-added tax. When people think of V.A.T. they automatically seem to think of the Common Market. Because of this, they may not appreciate the advantages of V.A.T. as a tax.
We heard this morning of a practical joker in Belgium who had announced, it being 1st April, that in future Continental cars would be driven on the left to fit the British pattern. It might have been an agreeable joke for someone in this country to have announced that the Common Market had abandoned V.A.T. and intended to copy our form of purchase tax. I believe that we would suddenly have found a large group of agitators in this House—those who have so far been against V.A.T.—suggesting that V.A.T. was really the best form of taxation.
I am inclined to endorse V.A.T. because, compared with purchase tax, it is not selective. My hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro), in an enjoyable vein, again
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demolished any possible case that could be adduced for purchase tax, and I shall be glad to see the last of it.
I am glad to see the Financial Secretary in his place, because I would like him to know that he is in the running for the Rhys Williams award for the hon. Member who has made the most rapid progress in coming to grips with the finer points of occupational pension schemes in 1971. However, if he wants the award, which I assure him will be well worth having, he will have to avoid two serious mistakes.
First, my hon. Friend appears to be keeping alive the Practice Notes. There is a tremendous area here for him to show his energy and capacity, and he could cut through to a simple formula for tax approval for occupational schemes based on a double criterion, one related to employers' contributions and the other related to the size of the eventual benefit. My view is that the tremendous amount of detailed thinking which has gone into these amazing Practice Notes becomes unnecessary when we escape from the notion that what we are trying to do is to restrict the possibility that occupational schemes could be used as a loophole for evading surtax, and see them rather as a means to increase the total volume of savings.
While an hon. Gentleman opposite was speaking earlier I was reminded of a little verse of Nicholas Bentley, which I have slightly adapted:
"At night I think it sensible to keep,
The Practice Notes at hand to help me sleep
Be careful, though, an overdose may cause,
The neighbours to be wakened by your snores."
Another mistake which the Financial Secretary might make in his treatment of occupational schemes is more serious. He might leave untouched the mixed benefits rule. The operation of this rule is a particular obstacle to employers and employees in coming to terms on the preservation of pension rights on a change of employment. This is a particular interest of mine. I have spoken about it on several occasions in the House and I hope to have opportunities of doing so again in the coming weeks.
We need to achieve preservation with a human face—preservation which is fair to employers and acceptable to employees.

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I have lately put forward recommendations about lump sums and post-with-drawal increases which I believe are worthy of discussion and I hope to have opportunities of going into the details of these recommendations in the coming weeks.
I give the warmest welcome to the Amendments to the 1956 Act. The increase in savings which will undoubtedly result virtually immediately the changes are brought into effect will be a useful addition to the total volume of savings in the private sector.
It was when the Chancellor came to the reform of direct taxation that we suddenly heard the screaming of the hinges as a door so long closed was forced open. Rats scattered for the wainscoting and huge spiders scurried to the edges of their webs as my right hon. Friend entered a room on a shaft of light with his new broom in his hand.
I have often spoken about the need for surtax to be reduced. I have been the despair of my friends and the laughing stock of my critics, many of whom thought that I was merely making a constituency speech. I have always had the certainty that I would live to see the end of surtax, though I had not foreseen its end so soon. My right hon. Friend can imagine my delight when I heard him on this subject.
I hope that he will now proceed to cut the operative rates, particularly in the higher ranges, so as to bring us at least into line with the practice in North America. I cannot see any social justice in a rate of tax which exceeds 50 per cent. of marginal income.
Having gone so far in the integration of the three systems of direct taxation by putting surtax and income tax together, I am disappointed with the signs that my right hon. Friend is hesitating before going on to the more important task of integrating income tax and national insurance contributions.
I hope that it may not have escaped the notice of hon. Members that this is also a particular interest of mine.
The only point that alarms me is that we seem to be left hung up with certain out-of-date nostrums on the subject of the cash relationship between the indi-
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vidual and the State in its widest manifestations. Consider the present situation in regard to children. Children are eligible for family allowances; child dependant's allowances; child allowances in the tax system; and family income supplements. It cannot be necessary to operate four different systems for relieving need or for the benefit of children in a mature society such as ours in which computers are freely available.
I trust that we will soon have another burst of light in these dark corridors of power, where there has for so long been murk and gloom on the whole subject of the cash relationship between the individual and the State.
In case my right hon. Friend is nervous of venturing further, I assure him that my thoughts will be with him. And if he is not perfectly certain what my thoughts are on this subject, I will see that the deficiency is remedied in the coming weeks.
I come to the intervention of the hon. and learned Member for Lincoln (Mr. Taverne), The House is advancing towards an interesting debate on the question of earnings-related contributions and flat-rate benefits. It seems strange that we on this side of the House should suddenly have taken up the theme of "from each according to his capacity and to each according to his need", while hon. Gentlemen opposite have discovered the virtues of 19th century insurance principles with the strictly mathematical equation of contributions and entitlement.
It is not necessary for the State to keep precisely to the maxims of private insurance companies in dealing with the individual. We must move forward to a new social contract in which the individual's contribution is related in a much more mature way to the total amount of benefit he receives as a member of society and is not strictly limited, in an arithmetical sense, to concepts of "this much in and that much out", which is nonsensical in a society such as ours.
A few weeks ago we had an extremely interesting report on the scrutiny of taxation from the Select Committee on Procedure. It was alluded to yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton), who made some extremely interesting remarks.

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I hope that the Minister will deal with my right hon. Friend's speech in winding up.
There is no doubt that the Budget is a tremendous new departure in the important sense that members of the public, and particularly Members of the House, are being invited to take part in the formation of policy, and are no longer being presented with a Budget which amounts to a fait accompli. We have Green Papers of the greatest possible significance on value-added tax and corporation tax which we must digest. We must also do a lot of thinking about the reform of direct taxation.
I think that the subject is so vast as to justify the setting up of a Select Committee on Taxation, or at least a Taxation Sub-Committee of the Expenditure Committee, as recommended in the Report of the Select Committee on Procedure. Alternatively, there might be a case now for setting up ad hoc Select Committees of Members to look at the subjects which will take their place in this year's and next year's legislation.
Hon. Gentlemen may have noticed that I try not to spend too much time attacking political opponents in the House. We all ought to be more aware than we are of the historic rôle of the House of Commons in correcting and checking the Executive, particularly in the field of taxation. If the House is devoted to internecine squabbles it will neglect that duty and we shall inevitably get to a situation —very much as we have seen in recent years—where taxation is excessive, arbitrary, unfair and inefficient.
Therefore, I hope that hon. Members will be ready to work together in achieving a major overhaul of our taxation system and that we shall not be divided by considerations of party advantage.
The Budget presents the country with a challenge, and I believe that the country will rise to it. It also presents hon. Members with a challenge. I believe that we have the capacity and the will to rise to this challenge; and rise to it we must, if we are to remain the centre of political power in this country.
8.22 p.m.
Mr. A. E. P. Duffy: I will not follow the hon. Member for Kensington, South (Sir B. Rhys Williams), if he will forgive me, on
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account of the lateness of the hour. I shall confine my remarks as best I can, because other hon. Members still hope to take part in the debate.
I want to observe immediately my impression that the Chancellor has produced a radical and complex Budget—radical because of his attempts to simplify an archaic tax structure: complex because it involves a variety of reforms and tries to provide something for everybody. The two need to be kept apart, because tax reform is an administrative problem. Tax incidence is a matter for Governments and for parties and ultimately for the people. It is of prime importance, therefore, that we in our discussions set them apart.
There is a suspicion that the Budget may be a cloak for readjusting the burden of taxation to the pre-1939 pattern. It is significant that the Chancellor took a long look backwards in the early part of his Budget proposals and thus left himself open to the charge of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition that this is the two-nations Budget, meaning that it offers more to the "haves" than to the "have-nots".
I take the view that it is the Chancellor's intention to reflate the economy and to stimulate the national growth rate. I recognise the Chancellor's problem of having to find ways of increasing incentive and staving off unemployment. I am therefore moved to ask if he has done enough. Even with today's announced cut in Bank Rate, is the Chancellor sure that his growth target is not within both productivity and capacity? Has he addressed himself sufficiently to the central issues—inflation as well as unemployment and the climate without which neither can be resolved, confidence?
The Budget may encourage people to work a little harder and to save a little more, but will it create more jobs? Confidence once lost is not easily regained. Undoubtedly confidence has been lost in the board rooms of many companies. Hence the decline in investment and economic growth. The general expansion for which the whole country is now anxiously looking depends upon measures of confidence. Yet, despite the euphoric reception of the Budget in the City today

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and yesterday, general confidence in industry may still continue to be eroded by unprepared announcements of redundancies, by the seeming absence of plans for making alternative use of scarce resources, by front pages such as that of my local newspaper—the Sheffield Morning Telegraph, that bears today, and not for the first time, headlines like these:
"Sackings top 100 in Davy cutback"—
and a quite separate announcement:
"Closures hit more jobs"
and then goes on to refer to another three firms.
Nowhere is this illustrated better currently than in a city like Sheffield because of the recent announcements in the steel industry about closures, about redundancies, about short-time working, without any explanation of the reorganisation of the steel industry that everyone believes is impending, as well as the absence of plans for the future use of valuable industrial infrastructure of steelmaking in cities like Sheffield.
All this has escalated the declining confidence in steel-making centres generally and in places like South Yorkshire in particular. Yet no industry is better placed to stimulate the investment needs of the economy than an expanding steel industry. We are all aware that the British Steel Corporation's economic dilemma is compounded of falling demand and a legacy of too much high cost plant which has inevitably undermined its profitability, as well as inadequate cash reserves due to unrealistic pricing policies.
Some right hon. and hon. Members opposite lead us to believe that, in their judgment, economic viability lies in the direction of hiving off non-essential steel making activities or profitable sections like special steels. But how can this make for the profitability of the residual steel industry? Already, there is an awful warning in Sheffield of the possible consequences of such a policy, for that first headline which I read—
"Sackings top 100 in Davy cutback"—
refer to the announcement by Davey & United Engineering of Sheffield that more than 100 workers at its Darnall office will be sacked by the summer.
Yet rumours are rife in trade union circles in Sheffield tonight that orders
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which would normally have gone to Davy & United, and could still go to Davy & United, have been placed by the British Steel Corporation with German firms in connection with the Anchor scheme at Scunthorpe, to the value of £13 million, and they in turn have been subcontracted to South African firms. I need hardly emphasise the effect which this will have upon the temper of trade unionists in steel making areas.
All this is subject to further clarification, but it is already clear in Sheffield that it could not have happened in the presence of a fully integrated steel industry. It is clear, also, that steel can become viable in conditions of normal demand only if all its assets are given the chance to become profitable.
The British Steel Corporation can become viable long-term only through modernisation. For the British Steel Corporation to be driven to seek solvency through cost saving alone is to opt out of growth and ultimately out of foreign markets and international competitiveness. I realise that the temptation confronting the Government and the danger facing the B.S.C. is that such cost saving will be most easily effected by speeding up closures and redundancies. None of this must be taken lightly and without regard to the counterbalancing effect which can come only from investment in new replacement capacity.
When I refer to the Financial Statement and Budget Report, 1971–72, I am heartened to note that nationalised industries will receive an extra £278 million in advances from the National Loans Fund in 1971–72. The largest percentage increase, from £43 million last year to £289 million in the next 12 months, is for the British Steel Corporation. Planned investment by the B.S.C. is to rise from £130 million to £203 million, and additional working capital will increase total needs to £250 million, from £163 million. But the major change in the borrowing requirement is the swing of £100 million from profitability last year, which allowed £66 million in internal financing, to an expected shortfall of £34 million in the coming year.
I wonder how far the modernisation of steel can go even on the basis of this additional cash flow. How far is the B.S.C. still being compelled to put some

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of its most important capital development schemes on ice at the behest of the Government? How far will the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry go in granting the Corporation's current application for a price increase? How far will this provide or otherwise service the essential investment needs of the steel industry?
The general impression which I have is that the Chancellor's technique of innovation is potentially productive. He has produced a Budget which is unorthodox and challenging and, above all, goes against the grain of Treasury thinking. No succeeding Budget will be able to revert to the old pattern because that old pattern has obviously been abolished. But the Chancellor has taken a grave risk in respect of investment. No industry is better equipped or better poised to help him reduce that risk than steel. Any further thought and consideration, therefore, which he extends to the needs of the British Steel Corporation during the next few vital months will be amply repaid.
8.33 p.m.
Mr. T. L. Iremonger: The hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Duffy) has made, in effect, a constituency speech. One always follows constituency speeches with respect, deference and charity, and, without in the slightest trying to denigrate his speech, I shall make no further reference to what he said.
I shall refer to only one speech made in the debate today, that made by my hon. Friend the Member for Truro (Mr. Dixon). How refreshing it was to hear from these benches a stout declaration and proclamation of Tory faith. I hope that we shall have it consistently from him again, and that he will be followed by all my hon. Friends.
I shall speak for 10 minutes, no more. I want to say just three things—something about the elderly, the widows, disabled and the like; something about tax reform; and something about the difference between the parties and our attitude to the economy of the country and political economy in general.
We all welcome the increases in pensions and tax allowances for the elderly, the widowed and the disabled. That is
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the compassionate element in the Budget. It is broadly true that over the years successive Governments, Labour and Conservative, neither one notably more or notably less than the other, have steadily increased, through money provided by taxation and contributions, the standard of living and real incomes of the elderly, the widows and the disabled. It is right that that should be so, and I am glad that it is so. It ill becomes either party to cast aspersions on the sincerity of the other's devotion to that objective. I am sure that the present Government will continue as they have begun, and as the Conservatives did the last time we had responsibility. In terms of Tory philosophy, this is the net below which none shall fall. The corollary to that is that above the net the sky is the limit. We have no quarrel with hon. Members opposite about the net, but we have a quarrel about the sky, and to that aspect of our political belief and thought I shall return.
I want to raise two questions on taxation, one minor but important, and the other more fundamental. First, why are we not restoring the right to separate sums inherited by widows under life assurance policies from the rest of the deceased husbands estate in assessing the rate of estate duty under the Married Women's Property Act? I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister of State will give an indication when he winds up that the Government will undertake to do this. A further question in the slipsteam of that is: why do we not defer the payment of estate duty on the death of the spouse until the next passing of the estate?
My major question is: why did my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, in announcing the major reform of the tax system, make no mention of the whole concept of negative income tax? There is an idea abroad in the country that income tax and social security arrangements, as operated through National Insurance, should be amalgamated into a single system, so that those with the highest incomes pay most tax, as now, but those with the lowest incomes receive payments, with all circumstances, including social security considerations, being catered for through assessment in the one system. It is an idea of such magnitude that it can hardly be encompassed in addition to, or supplementary to, a

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reform of the tax system such as has been envisaged by my right hon. Friend in his Budget. My hon. Friends the Members for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen), Kensington, South (Sir B. Rhys Williams) and Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) referred to this. It is surely the major reform that is called for. The major reform that we are promised is comparatively minor and subsidiary. Have the Government closed their mind to the possibility of such a reform in the life of this Parliament? If they have is that because of the possible difficulty of harmonising with Europe? I rather fear that that might be so. If it is, the House should be told frankly now, so that we know that it is not to be done in this Parliament.
In my last two minutes I should like to consider the Budget as an example of the difference between the two parties. I am glad that it has been attacked, and I am glad that it has been attacked in the way that it has by Labour hon. Members. It has been attacked on the right lines, especially with reference to taxation. It helps to make clear to the electorate that there is a choice before it, and what that choice is, and it reassures me that Conservatives are true to themselves and in their true colours. I have never thought that it was the duty of Conservatives to conserve Socialism.
I have always taken a certain amount of pleasure and comfort in a remark made by a notable Labour supporter, Mr. Cecil King, writing in The Times a little while ago. He said:
"The besetting sin of the Labour Party is envy."
I would be less than frank with the House if I did not add that he went on to say that the besetting sin of the Conservative Party was greed. But I think that one can turn the coin in either case, and it would be less than generous not to recognise that the obverse of the coin of envy which characterises the Labour Party is some very nice attitudes of compassion and considerateness for the weak —which I would not, myself, in any way admit as being absent from my own side of the political fence. Likewise, if Mr. King wants to call Conservatives greedy, at least it must be recognised that they possess that dynamic energy and creative and constructive vitality which is so im-
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portant in keeping the world going round. For myself, my choice is, as always in all political questions, the choice between two evils. It seemed to me that there was more hope in mitigating and restricting the vices of the Conservative Party and building upon the constructive energy it offered than there was, however nice the compassion in the Labour Party, hope for the man or society whose moral outlook was poisoned by envy, which is the most miserable and sterile of vices and sins.
The fundamental difference in attitudes is brilliantly illuminated by the reactions on either side to taxation—which, for the first time since we last sat on these benches on this side of the House, has actually been reduced in a Budget. This has been called a rich man's Budget and a socially divisive Budget. We have a different attitude to this. Conservatives believe in private Property as the first principle of individual liberty, if I may be permitted to say so. We believe that taxation is an evil because it takes away from a man his private property, and that it has to be kept down to such minimum as may be necessary, firstly, to regulate purchasing power in the economy, and secondly, to pay for the minimum of State activity required by compassion—I would prefer to call it kindness, decency—in social policy.
But the Socialists believe, as they are entitled to, that taxation has at least one valuable social function. They believe that it should cause society actively to move towards the redistribution of income for the creation of equality. They have an egalitarian creed. I recognise that and I think that people are too mealy-mouthed about it. It is supposed to be the spirit of the age. I do not believe that it is the spirit of the age. I do not believe that it is the spirit of England. If it is let me make it clear that I am against it. I am not a political transvestite and never have been.
I do not believe that the creation of equality is possible by fiscal methods. If it were, I do not believe it desirable. Hon. Members opposite and I at any rate—and I hope all my hon. Friends—disagree fundamentally about that, and I think it best that we should recognise it. We cannot prove that one is right and the other wrong. It is not for us to convince one another. We have nothing to

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say to one another about that. Our appeal is to be made to the electorate. It is for the people to judge between us. They have judged. They have made their choice. We shall not disappoint them if this is the first earnest of what we intend to do.
8.45 p.m.
Mr. Gavin Strang: In framing the Budget the Chancellor should have had three overriding aims, and I propose to assess the extent to which he has met those objectives. They are: first, to reduce unemployment; secondly, to provide a substantial increase for those who have been hit hardest by inflation; thirdly, to help directly to reduce inflation.
Unemployment in the South-East among males is 2·8 per cent. and the national figure is 4·4 per cent., but in Scotland it is 7·4 per cent. The people of Scotland were looking to the Budget to cut unemployment. They were looking for economic expansion, but they have not got it. The most crucial passage in the Chancellor's Budget Statement was when he said:
"…the broad aim should be an addition to demand adequate to raise the rate of expansion of output to the rate of growth of productive potential, which is estimated to be about 3 per cent."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th March, 1971; Vol. 814, c. 1370.]
The Chancellor was there saying that he would not take up the slack in the economy. He was telling the people of Scotland that the level of unemployment was to be stabilised at the present figure of 122,000. There is hardly a Scottish Labour Member who has not had a major redundancy in his constituency in the last few months. I have had a substantial redundancy in the small burgh of Mussel-burgh, and it has had devastating effects.
If the Chancellor had decided that he could not produce an overall expansion in the economy, as I should have wished, I should have liked a reflation of at least £500 million and not the £250 million immediately and £350 million at the beginning of 1972, which is the general assessment of the position. Surely he could have provided something special for Scotland. But there is nothing in the Budget to help Scotland.
If the Chancellor decided that in the short term he could not do something
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about growth, he might still have looked at the long term. He must have been alarmed by the likely deterioration in the balance of payments in 1972. But there is nothing in the Budget designed to promote an increase in exports. Not only is the short-term outlook bleak for the people of Scotland, but the long-term outlook Ls equally bleak.
The second aim should have been to help those on low fixed incomes. Hon. Members opposite seem to be under the impression that the increase in pensions will do just that; but it will do nothing of the kind. On 16th March I asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what percentage drop there had been in the purchasing power of pensions since the last increase. The answer was 9· per cent. I made the point that an increase of less than £3 a week for a couple would be inadequate because of that drop and because of likely increases in prices. That may have sounded like political polemics, but it was a sober assessment based on the present rate of inflation and expected price increases over the next year.
By early 1972 pensioners will be worse off than they were in 1969 and 1967. In reply to that point, the Secretary of State said yesterday that the last increase under Labour had only just restored the purchasing power of pensions. That is true, but the Labour Government's record on pensions is that they started well in 1965 and fell away, while the present Government are starting badly and, I am sure, will get worse.
The third aim should have been to act directly to reduce inflation. When will the Government end their schizophrenic attitude towards inflation? On the one hand, they are forcing up prices —food prices, rents, transport charges, health charges and so on—and, on the other hand, they are telling workers that they must not force un wages. When shall we have an end to this?
It is all very well for hon. Members opposite to say that when a man earning £20,000 a year gets tax cuts of £34 a week it does not matter because the cost to the 'Treasury is small. The Financial Secretary made the point that some of my hon. Friends had been taken aback when he quoted the figure. One or two hon. Members did lead with their chins on this issue and the S.E.T.

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issue during the Chancellor's speech, but the case for taxation of higher income levels, of estates, the case for a wealth tax, for a capital gains tax is not the revenue that it produces; it is the basic argument of social justice. We believe that it is anti-social for people to have large private fortunes.
This Budget does nothing to help the unemployed. It takes from the workers to help the rich. It has been described as a good Tory Budget, and it is that —a good, clever, Tory Budget. It is a cruel, socially divisive package, dressed up with fancy wrapping, but the people of the country are beginning to take off the wrapping and the more they see of this Budget the less they like it.
8.52 p.m.
Mr. Peter Trew: I hope that the hon. Member for Edinburgh, East (Mr. Strang) will forgive me if I do not comment on his remarks. I believe that this Budget will restore confidence and that the chief beneficiary of that restoration of confidence will be the level of industrial investment. Hon. Members opposite have made much of the fact that the increase in private fixed investment in the next year will be only 0·5 per cent. Private fixed investment involves the construction of buildings or the installation of heavy plant. The construction period can often be lengthy and it is often preceded by a period of work in the design office which itself may be preceded by negotiations for the acquisition of a site.
It would be surprising if investment decisions taken as a result of this Budget were reflected in financial terms within the next year. I am confident that in two or three years from now we shall see the benefits of the Budget in steadily increasing industrial investment. The Budget has rightly been hailed as a great reforming Budget and it is in that context that I want to say something about a value-added tax. I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) is not in his place because I should like to take friendly issue with him. He expressed the hope that future savings in Government expenditure might make it possible to dispense with the other half of S.E.T. without resorting to a value-added tax.
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I, too, earnestly hope that savings in Government expenditure might make it possible for us to make further tax reductions. However, I am persuaded by the arguments that my party has been putting forward over the last six years that we need to shift the emphasis from a tax on income to a tax on spending. If we find ourselves with capacity for further reductions in taxation I would rather see those reductions made in direct taxation.
If we ever get to the point when we felt that we had sufficiently reduced direct taxation I should have other candidates for reduced taxation before dispensing with value-added tax. I am thinking of Excise duties and particularly the Excise duty on hydrocarbon oils.
Given that we believe there is virtue in a general tax on expenditure, of all the imperfect ways of taxing general expenditure, a value-added tax is the least imperfect. We must first of all consider the disadvantages of the taxes it replaces. S.E.T. has few friends. It is discriminatory, cumbersome and has failed ostensibly to achieve its intended redistribution of labour. My hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) spoke of the absurdities and anomalies of purchase tax: it has the further small disadvantage that it finds its way into the cost of exports.
Value-added tax has some definite advantages. It is broadly based. It is neutral. Because it is a tax on general expenditure, it is an incentive to saving. Because it can be rebated, it has some incentive effect on exports. That effect may not be great, but very often a marginal effect is an important effect and can sometimes tip the balance and, perhaps, give our exports just that decisive extra edge.
But even the tax's best friends will agree that it has disadvantages. It will need additional civil servants—the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) quoted the N.E.D.C. estimate of another 6,000 or 8,000 civil servants. I would not quarrel with that estimate, but one must look at it in the context of other savings; the abolition of surtax, of purchase tax and of selective employment tax, the streamlining of capital gains tax,

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the abolition of the Land Commission and the ending of investment grants, all of which will save on civil servants, so that the net increase resulting from V.A.T. will be small, if there is any increase at all.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South pointed out, there are ways of further reducing the administrative costs of V.A.T. One way is by exempting small traders: I believe that in Germany and Denmark the number of potential V.A.T. taxpayers has been reduced by one-third as a result of exempting small traders. The scope in this country is considerable when we reflect on the fact that in the construction industry alone there are 60,000 firms each employing fewer than eight men.
The administrative costs can be reduced further by resisting the temptation to have varying rates of tax, and I hope that we will resist that temptation, apart from a few necessary exemptions. I suggest that where we consider it necessary to lessen the burden of tax on certain items, instead of changing the rate we should vary the basis upon which the tax is levied. In housing, for instance, instead of levying a tax on 100 per cent. of the value of the house, the tax could be levied on two-thirds, or 50 per cent.
A further effect of V.A.T. which is criticised is that it will increase the cost of living, and it will certainly have an effect. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stechford quoted the N.E.D.C. estimate of the additional number of civil servants, and presumably he did so because he regarded that report as authoritative. It is a pity that he did not also quote the N.E.D.C. estimate of the increase in the cost of living. In page 50, paragraph 5·13 of that report the estimate is that by a V.A.T. rate of between 10 per cent. and 15 per cent. the cost of living will be increased by only 1½ per cent. to 2 per cent., if we dispense with purchase tax and selective employment tax.
I should not have thought that such an increase was an insupportable burden, particularly as there are ways of mitigating its effect on poorer people by exempting, for instance, the necessities of life, by adjusting personal allowances for income tax for people with children, or even by increasing old-age pensions.
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Although V.A.T. has its disadvantages, it also has solid advantages.
One proposal in the Green Paper which worries me is that the value of goods for tax purposes should be the invoice value inclusive of duties and other taxes. I am worried about how this will work, particularly in conjunction with the Excise duty on hydrocarbon oils. A feature of the cost of these oils is that it works its way throughout the economy. There is no manufactured item in which hydrocarbon oils are not used. Therefore, there is an element of this cost in practically every invoice on which V.A.T. will be levied. That means that V.A.T. will be levied on the £1,400 million or so a year of the Excise duty on hydrocarbon oils. In other works, with a V.A.T. rate of between 10 and 15 per cent., about £150 million to £200 million a year in tax revenue will arise from a tax upon a tax—V.A.T. as levied on the tax on hydrocarbon oils. I believe that it is wrong in principle that there should be a tax upon a tax. I hope that further thought will be given to this matter, or, better still, that the Excise duty on hydrocarbon oils will be greatly reduced or even abolished.
I welcome the Budget. I think that it was received with mild disbelief. Members of the public had braced themselves for the six-year-old ritual of savage tax increases. Instead they were invited by the Chancellor to come out into the sunshine and to take advantage of the opportunities before them. I have always believed that under a Conservative Government the 1970s would be a decade of great opportunity for Britain. This Budget fittingly sets the stage for that decade.
9.1 p.m.
Mr. David Marquand: It gives me great pleasure to be able to begin my first speech at this Despatch Box by congratulating the hon. Member for Truro (Mr. Dixon) on his maiden speech. I was not able to hear it, but I gather that he spoke with extreme fluency and without notes. It is clear from the accounts which I have received that the trepidation, if any, which he felt was a good deal less than that which I now feel.
At this stage of the debate, the rôle of the "winder upper" is not to contribute new thoughts—it is very difficult to have

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new thoughts at this stage of a debate—but to comment on some of the themes which have emerged. I should like to comment on three themes which seem to me of great importance. The first is that mentioned by the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) yesterday and referred to by the hon. Member for Kensington, South (Sir B. Rhys Williams) today: namely, the theme of what I might call open government and of parliamentary control over the process of economic management and, in particular, of taxation.
In the Budget debate a year ago the present Minister of State at the Treasury asked that in future the Government should publish what he called a "before and after forecast"—a forecast, not only of what would happen as a result of the Budget, but of what would have happened if the Budget measures had not been introduced. I applauded that call, and I am very disappointed indeed to find that after nine months at the Treasury he has not been able to achieve that very important reform in open government.
It is true that the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a few references to the pre-Budget forecast on Tuesday. He mentioned that investment looked very bad before the Budget and that the prospects for growth were deplorable. But he did not give us anything like the full picture, nor does the Financial Statement. This point is of much wider importance this year than it might be in other years because it means that it is very difficult sensibly to appraise the right hon. Gentleman's Budget judgment.
The Minister of State was kind enough to ask me to let him know whether I had any questions. I told him that I would ask this question, but if he has not had time to find the answer perhaps it can be given on Monday. If we are to appraise this Budget judgment, it is important that we should know what, before the Budget, was the Treasury's forecast of the likely growth in consumers' expenditure. It is the growth in consumers' expenditure which will give what small degree of growth there will be in the economy over the next 12 months.
The Government are expecting consumers' expenditure, as a result of the Budget, to grow by 5 per cent. a year. It is expected to be the main impetus to
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the overall growth of 3 per cent. If one subtracts from that post-Budget forecast of a 5 per cent. increase in consumers' expenditure the effect of the Budget measures themselves, I believe that we would get a figure of about 3·9 per cent. In other words, the Treasury's forecast before the Budget must have been that consumers' expenditure would rise by around 3·9 per cent.
The National Institute for Economic and Social Research is not divinely appointed and its forecasts are by no means always right, but it is worthy of note that its pre-Budget forecast of the likely growth in consumers' expenditure over that period was about 1·3 per cent. It is of the utmost importance that the Minister of State should give the House tonight an intelligible reason for this wide disparity between the forecast of the National Institute and what must have been the forecast of the Treasury.
It seems to me that there can be only two possible reasons for it. Either the Treasury forecast assumes that the savings ratio will fall, which means that the Chancellor's policy of increasing savings will fail, or the Treasury is assuming that wage settlements will not decelerate in the way that the National Institute assumed they would. In other words, the Treasury's forecast of growth—which depends on its forecast of consumers' expenditure—appears to depend in turn on an assumption either that the Chancellor's policy on savings will fail or that his policy on inflation will fail. I may be wrong about this—indeed, I hope I am—but I should like the Minister of State to explain clearly to the House, if I am wrong, why I am wrong. By what process did the Government reach their totally different forecast from that of the National Institute? If we are to have intelligent debate on these matters, it is not enough to be given a few figures in the Red Book. We must have a clear and coherent argument backing up the figures. That is the real value of an economic forecast, not the figures themselves.
My second question to the Minister of State about forecasts in this. Where do the Government expect the extra 1 per cent. growth of G.N.P. to come from? If one goes down the list of tax cuts in the red book it is difficult to see how the Government can expect an increase of 1

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per cent. of G.N.P. Half of the total tax cut comes from the reduction of S.E.T. The Government must be making some extravagant assumptions about the likelihood that the cut in S.E.T. will be passed on to the consumer in the form of lower prices.
It would be helpful—and, indeed, it is essential if we are to have a proper debate—if the Government could say exactly how much of that S.E.T. cut will be passed on in the form of prices, and why, and also what measures they intend to take to make sure it is passed on. So far we have had nothing on that matter.
The second aspect of this theme of open Government to which I should like to refer—this is something of a King Charles's head with me, but since I am speaking from this Box I might as well fly the flag once again—is the point which was raised by the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton, and taken up by his hon. Friend the Member for Kensington, South, about the need to set up a Select Committee on Taxation or a Sub-Committee of the Expenditure Committee to deal with taxation matters. I agree with them that this matter has become much more urgent as a result of this Budget and the measures associated with it.
I am glad that the Government have produced two Green Papers for consultation, but whom are they planning to consult? Both proposals in regard to corporation tax and V.A.T. are exceedingly complex. The proposal for a V.A.T. raises fundamental social questions, as well as questions of economic management. In my view, it would be intolerable if the Government were to consult a whole range of outside interests on the proposals in these two Green Papers and were never to submit them to detailed scrutiny by a Select Committee. It is not possible in exchanges across the Floor, or even at the Committee stage of a Bill upstairs, to scrutinise such proposals with the sort of detail and seriousness which they require.
The difficulties about corporation tax have been well outlined by my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett), and I shall not repeat what he has said. On the value-added tax, there is an additional reason why a Select Committee examination is necessary. It is not just that the tax is administratively complex. It is also that the package proposed by the Chancellor,
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the substitution of purchase tax and S.E.T. by a value-added tax, would undoubtedly have a highly regressive effect. It would make the poor poorer and, relatively speaking, the rich richer. All the studies which have been carried out, including that in the Treasury's own "Economic Trends", suggest that the effect of S.E.T. and purchase tax on the distribution of income is broadly neutral. On the other hand, there is no doubt that a V.A.T., unaccompanied by any other measure, would take more from the poor than from the rich.
The Institute for Fiscal Studies has just issued a pamphlet by C. V. Brown entitled "Impact of Tax Changes on Income Distribution". This makes clear that the introduction of a value-added tax at a flat rate of 8·9 per cent. would mean that the lowest income groups would suffer a fall of 9 to 11 per cent. in their income, whereas in the highest income groups the fall would be around only 6 per cent. It also shows that it makes little difference if food and housing are exempted from V.A.T.
In my view, two conclusions follow. In the first place, it is outrageous that the Government should publish a Green Paper on a step of such importance without considering the social implications of this departure.
Secondly, it is clear that if we are to have a value-added tax—and like my right hon. and hon. Friends who have spoken from this Box earlier, I accept the need for a value-added tax if we go into Europe as part of the price of going in—there must be compensating measures to make sure that the regressive effects do not take place. That is absolutely indispensable. I think that a Select Committee examination could help in elucidating the options and problems in that sphere.
I hope, therefore that when the Minister of State winds up he will break the deafening silence which the Government have so far preserved on the suggestions contained in the Procedure Committee's Report and tell us whether the Treasury is prepared to move a bit further forward than it did in its quite deplorable evidence to us a few months ago.
The second major theme of this debate is the effect of the Budget on the rate of growth, on the level of unemployment, on the rate of inflation, and on

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the balance of payments—in other words, its significance as a tool of economic management. It was interesting, during yesterday's debate, to note that, on this aspect at any rate, there were quite marked doubts in some sections of the party opposite. We had fascinating and interesting speeches from the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen)—I am sorry that he is not here —from the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton, and even from the hon. Member for Horsham(Mr.Hordern)— "even" in the last case because of the loyalty which he normally displays to his Front Bench. All of them admitted that they were worried about the implications of the Chancellor's statement with regard to the money supply. If their worries meant anything, it seems to me that what they really meant was that they feared that the Budget, combined with the Chancellor's announcements about money supply, would be too reflationary and would not do enough to deal with the present rate of inflation.
This is significant, because it is clear that the Budget does mark a change of policy on the Government's part—at any rate, a change in their declared policy. Until a few weeks ago it seemed that the Government's economic policy could be defined as follows: squeeze the economy until the pips squeak, and only when they have started to squeak do anything about growth and full employment. Their policy until a few weeks ago seemed to be to deal first with inflation and then, and only then, to go for growth. In my view, it was a mistaken and, indeed, a cruel policy, but it was at least an intelligible policy; it made some kind of intellectual sense. As a result of the Budget, it is clear that that policy has been abandoned. Instead we have no policy at all; we have the worst of both worlds.
One point which has emerged from speech after speech from these benches, which has not been and cannot be contradicted by any speaker on the Government side, is that this Budget, whatever else it may be, is not a reflationary Budget. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is not aiming to lower the present intolerable level of unemployment. All he is
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aiming to do is to keep it at its present level. That is the most that he is hoping for.
As I have suggested already, there is room for doubt about whether the Chancellor will achieve even that. There is room for doubt about whether the stimulus is as much as he thinks, and there is greater room for doubt about whether the stimulus will work with sufficient speed. But by far the most important point is that, even if it does work to the extent that he expects, it is clear that it will work in the wrong way. It is clear that such expansion as will come in the British economy during the next 12 months as a result of this Budget will come almost entirely from consumption. There will be nothing from investment and virtually nothing from exports. It is clear that in the long run this is a recipe for economic disaster.
We all know that for the last 20 years the basic problem of the British economy has been low investment leading to low growth, low growth leading to periodic balance of payments crises, periodic balance of payments crises leading to deflation, and deflation leading to low investment. That is the rut out of which the Chancellor says he hones to get. The Budget does nothing to get out of it.
The whole point of devaluation was to escape from that vicious circle, to get out of the balance of payments straitjacket and go for sustained growth long enough to drag up the rate of investment, because that is the only way to drag up the rate of investment. The idea that it is possible to generate extra investment by clever changes in the tax structure while allowing demand to remain stagnant is, of course, absurd.
The critics of devaluation said that, if we devalued, all that we would do was to buy time. In a sense, they were right. The purpose was to buy time. But we did buy time. We got the surplus. The charge against the Chancellor of the Exchequer is that he is frittering away the time that was bought.
The Government's Financial Statement shows that the existing margin of spare capacity and unemployment will remain in being and that, because of it, investment will barely rise at all. In this House we often discuss the undesirability of a consumer-led boom. We are

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getting consumer-led stagnation from the Chancellor, and it is a certain recipe for economic disaster.
The reason for it was given plainly by the hon. Member for Tonbridge (Mr. Hornby) and by the Chancellor himself in his Budget Statement. The right hon. Gentleman said:
"As far as fiscal and monetary policies are concerned, the first requirement is that they should not create any danger that demand inflation will be added to the present inflation stemming from rapidly rising costs."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th March, 1971; Vol. 814, c. 1369.]
In other words, it is inflation which makes it impossible for the Chancellor to do more than he has to reflate the economy—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Anthony Barber): That is true.
Mr. Marquand: I am glad to have the right hon. Gentleman's confirmation.
This is where what has been the third theme of the debate links up with the second theme. For the third theme has been the inadequacies of the social philosophy enshrined in the Budget. There are only two ways of dealing with inflation. There is the way of unemployment, running the economy below capacity. Despite all the known difficulties and hazards, the only alternative is to try to hammer out some form of acceptable prices and incomes policy, as the right hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples) made clear in his very interesting speech.
The second major charge against the Chancellor is that the social philosophy which is embodied in this Budget makes it impossible for him to take the incomes policy road and therefore means that he has no alternative but to take the road of deflation and low growth. For incomes policies can work only if they embody some element of social justice, and the philosophy in the Budget, as has become clear in speech after speech from this side of the House, is directly contrary to the aim of creating greater social justice.
What are the major obstacles to social justice in modern Britain? I believe that there are two. The first is the persistent tendency in a society like ours for an ever-increasing minority of poor people to fall behind the standards of the affluent, comfortable majority. The
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second is the stubborn and persistent inequality in the distribution of capital wealth. The Chancellor has failed to deal with either of these, or indeed even to recognise their existence—
Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Come off it.
Mr. Marquand: The hon. Gentleman disputes that. Let me mention one or two points in connection with these obstacles to greater social justice. It is true that the Government have done something to relieve poverty, but what they have given with one hand they have taken away with the other. One example which no one has yet mentioned is rates, just about the most regressive single tax we have. All that Treasury's investigations in "Economic Trends" show this. Yet, as a direct result of the Government's cuts in public expenditure, local authorities are now being forced to increase the rate burden. This is bound to make the poor poorer.
I have mentioned the effect of a value-added tax. There is no sign from the Government that they will compensate for this. They certainly have not said so. If they are prepared to say so, I shall be delighted. Even the increase in child allowances with which the Front Bench opposite make such play, however valuable it may be to those who receive it, does nothing to narrow the gap between the poor minority and the affluent majority. By definition, it cannot do so, because it is received by everybody with children, irrespective of whether they are poor or rich.
The Government have also done nothing to meet the second obstacle, that of a stubborn inequality in the distribution of wealth. Not long ago, one of the Treasury Ministers told me in answer to a Written Question that the wealthiest 1 per cent. of the people of this country own 34 per cent. of the privately-owned wealth, that the wealthiest 10 per cent. own 75 per cent, and that the poorest 50 per cent. own nothing at all. There might in theory be a case for relieving high income earners from some of the burden of taxation—although it is rather a strange policy to pursue when one is trying to contain wage inflation—but not against a background of this continuing, stubborn inequality in the ownership of wealth.

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I think it was the hon. Member for Tonbridge who said that Sweden and Germany had lower rates of tax on high incomes than we have. That is perfectly true, but both have a wealth tax, which we do not have. If we are to have this sort of change in the taxation of high earners, we must do something to relieve inequality in the ownership of wealth. It is because the Government have failed to do this that we can see that, when they talk of incentive as their goal, what they mean is inequality. It is because of that that the Budget is unacceptable to my hon. Friends and, in my view, it is also because of that that the economic policy which the Chancellor is trying to follow in this Budget is doomed, and rightly doomed, to failure.
9.30 p.m.
The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Terence Higgins): My first pleasant task is to congratulate the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Marquand) on his first speech from the Opposition Front Bench. I do so with considerable enthusiasm and it is without presumption that I tell him that it was the best speech I have heard him make. The entire House enjoyed it very much. That is not to say that I agreed with his remarks, particularly towards the latter part of his speech. Nevertheless, it was a contribution which we enjoyed.
The hon. Gentleman raised a number of specific points and I will, in the course of my remarks, answer most of them. The answer to his question about forecasts is that we have many economic debates ahead in the coming weeks and months when this point can be pursued. As for the recommendations of the Select Committee on Procedure, my hon. Friend the Chief Secretary will be referring to those in his speech on Monday.
My second pleasant task is to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Truro (Mr. Dixon) on his maiden speech. He expressed some impatience with the time-table of our programme of tax reform, and that is understandable. However, he will appreciate that we are anxious, as the Green Paper makes clear, to have a serious discussion of all these proposals, and we look forward to hearing his views on them in the near future.
1800
We have had three separate debates about the various parts of the tax reform package going on within the main debate on economic policy. My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary dealt this afternoon with the reform of personal and corporate direct taxation. I will take up some of the points which have been made by hon. Members on indirect taxation, but first I wish to look at the economic situation. I will examine our problems and, throughout, take as my theme the need to change the answers in response to changing economic problems and especially the need to change to Conservative answers.
As many hon. Members have pointed out, we are confronted with two problems combined. We have simultaneously a rising rate of unemployment and, at the same time, very serious cost-push inflation. This paradox cannot be resolved simply by demand management. It is for this reason that we are pursuing a policy which combines de-escalation of wage claims, to tackle the cost-push inflation, with a policy of reflation, to get the growth of output back in line with the growth of productive potential.
In this context, it is vital that the implications of the Budget should not be misunderstood as the hon. Member for Ashfield, among others, misunderstood them. Obviously it is not the kind of Budget which we have had for the last five years, with massive tax increases failing to deal with inflation. But in the complex situation we face, the responsible reflationary measures which my right hon. Friend has announced should not be taken as an indication that resistance to inflationary wage settlements can be relaxed. On the contrary. What is required is an intensification, rather than a relaxation, of the battle against inflationary wage settlements.
It is important to distinguish between the revenue and demand effects of the Budget. The degree of reflation which follows from my right hon. Friend's Budget judgment is, we judge, sufficient to bring the growth of output into line with productive potential, but not to add demand pull inflation to cost push pressures.
Despite the depressing survey in the Sunday Times last weekend, to which my right hon. Friend the Member for

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Wallasey (Mr. Marples) referred, the public at large is, I believe, increasingly aware of the connection between inflationary wage settlements and rising prices. There is, however, a particular aspect of our de-escalation policy which I want to stress. It is no part of the Government's policy to reduce the rate of growth of the community's real earnings. Indeed, it is a major objective of our policy in this Parliament to increase the sustainable rate of economic growth and to raise real earnings and the standard of living.
But excessive increases in money wage settlements of the present dimensions will not achieve this. On the contrary, they will endanger our prospects. It is necessary for faster growth, and the more rapid advance of real earnings, for increases in money earnings to be reduced to more realistic levels, levels which are more in line with the growth of national productivity. A policy aimed at this objective is in everyone's interest and is in no way aimed against wage or salary earners.
Our policy to deal with cost-push inflation and rising unemployment reflects our determination to "change the answers" to meet new problems. The same approach is to be found in our attitude to savings. Encouragement of savings is, of course, fundamental to Conservative philosophy, and so my right hon. Friend has changed, or rather improved, the terms of National Savings securities. Savings will also be generally encouraged by the fact that under our plan for unification of income tax and surtax the first slice of investment income will be taxed at the rate applicable to earned income, and by the changes made in capital gains tax, estate duty, the rules for pension schemes and retirement annuities and stamp duty.
The National Savings Movement has a particularly important rôle to play in encouraging thrift. Its structure has, however, developed over a number of years, and, as my right hon. Friend has said, we believe that the time has come to set up a Committee to review it. Here we have no preconceived ideas of what changes if any might be made. The Committee, under Sir Harry Page, will be entirely independent, and it will make its recommendations in the light of all the evidence and after making a thorough
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review. The Government's aim is to get a report which will enable them to ensure that the framework of the savings movement is soundly based, sensible and can develop in the right direction in the future.
In our present economic situation we regard a continued increase in savings as more vital than ever before. Every increase in savings widens the scope for reducing direct taxation, and increasing incentives, or cutting indirect taxes, which will help to keep down prices.
Sir G. Nabarro: Just as the Chancellor said.
Mr. Higgins: This, in turn, will enable us to achieve a faster sustainable rate of economic growth. In contrast with the 1930s, we can justifiably argue that today increased savings improve the prospects for higher employment.
As my right hon. Friend has pointed out, the recent figures for savings are encouraging, but there is certainly no room for complacency. It is significant and important that savings have continued to grow despite inflation. As I pointed out in answer to a supplementary question on Tuesday, it is true that inflation does have an effect on the value of savings. It is for that reason, among others, that the Government are determined to control inflation. But increased savings are also a major weapon against inflation, and it is very important that we should make full use of it.
I turn to the question of monetary policy, to which a number of hon. Members have referred. I return to my theme. As my right hon. Friend made clear in his Budget speech, it is also necessary to change the answers to our problems as far as the mechanism of monetary control is concerned, and, again, to change them in line with Conservative principles. For too long we have relied on specific quantitative controls which have, as is usually the case, tended to inhibit competition, produce distortions and lead to a misallocation of resources.
This is an area where we must proceed to reform with caution. It is essential to retain effective control throughout and to make sure that we do not destroy a delicate machanism based to a large extent on confidence without having a better mechanism to put in its place. My right hon. Friend has outlined our broad

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approach. It will be more comprehensive and rely more on the working of the market mechanism than existing arrangements, but there will need to be further consultations before firm decisions can be reached.
The other area of controversy in this field, as hon. Members opposite who have taken part in debates on Finance Bills over the years will know, is concerned with the relative merits of fiscal versus monetary policy. I believe that this is a false dichotomy, and whilst no doubt the academic battle raging between Professor Friedman and his troops, on the one hand, and Professor Kaldor and his allies, on the other, will continue, and, hopefully, end in a synthesis, the dispute is essentially about analysis.
In practical terms, the real lesson to be learned is from the experience of the United Kingdom economy in 1968–69, when the effects of massive tax increases were dangerously delayed by inadequate control of money supply. We have learned that fiscal and monetary policies must go together. In this context, despite the fact that it is impossible to fine-tune monetary magnitudes over short periods of time, the policy since last June has, I believe, hit the right balance.
The present choices for monetary policy are often presented as two distinct options—a neutral policy and a passive policy. It may be helpful to define these options and put the terminology on record, not least because the terms seem, on the face of it, to be interchangeable. I take a neutral monetary policy to mean a growth in money supply equal to the underlying growth in productive potential, plus some allowance for an irreducible price increase based on past experience. I take a passive monetary policy to be one which accommodates whatever rate of growth in money incomes and prices is generated by the development of the economy.
Mr. Barnett: The hon. Gentleman got that in all right.
Mr. Higgins: I am anxious to put it on record because there is a case for doing so for the sake of future debates which we shall have on this subject. I certainly do not intend to
1804
delay the House by repeating it on this occasion.
If we had adopted a strict neutral policy, as some have advocated, this might in time have caused the rise in prices to be moderated to something close to its past average. But, unhappily —I think that I take hon. Members with me on this—experience in most industrial countries suggests that a stringent monetary policy affects real output first and then affects the increase in costs and prices only after a long period. To have pursued such a policy would have caused, and would cause, widespread bankruptcies, massive unemployment and a waste of resources.
If our present inflation had stemmed from excessive demand, a much tighter monetary policy would have been an essential way of reducing pressure. But this is not the position, and there has been no evidence of any general excess of demand.
Mr. Roy Jenkins: The hon. Gentleman put it very engagingly, and I entirely agree that "neutral" and "passive", while the accepted terms, are not totally satisfactory. But will he tell us, at the end of that piece of lucid exposition, whether the Government's policy is closer to neutral passivity or to passive neutrality?
Mr. Higgins: I am not sure that that would really clarify the position.
I wish to answer those critics who have suggested that by not setting a target for money supply or D.C.E., we are really giving up monetary policy in the fight against inflation. This is certainly not so. Indeed, the reverse is the case. By refraining from setting targets here and now for the full financial year, we have given ourselves greater flexibility for adjusting the course of money supply and credit later in the year in the light of developments.
The passage in the Chancellor's speech in which he said that
"there would be dangers for liquidity and employment if we sought immediately to reduce the growth of money supply to much below 3 per cent. per quarter".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th March, 1971; Vol. 814, c. 1374.]
has been misinterpreted by some commentators. The crucial word is "immediately", and it would be a mistake to

1805
assume that this is the same as saying a growth of 12 per cent. over the next year. Our objectives, as the Chancellor explained in his Budget speech, remain the same. Monetary policy is intended neither to impede the real growth of the economy at which we are aiming, nor to provide an additional boost to demand beyond that envisaged in the Budget strategy.
There is at work here, as hon. Members will appreciate, a complex interrelationship between incomes and money supply. The change in the money supply is to an important extent a consequence of the rate of growth of domestic incomes. I say "to an important extent", because this is not the whole story. A change in money supply can also be a factor causing incomes to change. Looking back over the past year, we can see that it would seem that the main line of causation has run from incomes to money supply. Accordingly, a slowing down in the growth of money supply will partly depend upon a slowing down in the rate of growth of money incomes. It is the prime objective of our economic strategy to secure this de-escalation of costs.
We are not trying to curb the inflation by depressing demand. Indeed, it is the aim of the Budget to bring about a growth of output in line with the growth of productive potential, and in particular to assist industrial investment. The moderate relaxation of the credit guidelines announced by the Chancellor is fully consistent with these objectives, and, indeed, is an essential part of the policy for bringing them about.
But none of this—and this may help answer the right hon. Gentleman's question—means that monetary policy is to be passive, simply accommodating whatever rate of growth of incomes and prices is generated by the development of the economy, as my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen), I think, suggested it might be. It has a vital part to play in our management of the economy, ensuring that the cost pressures are not compounded by an unintended boost to demand.
Mr. Shore: That was a very interesting exposition, and a very important one. But, if the Minister is to have any effect on events, clearly other people, particularly those engaged in collective bargain-
1806
ing, must understand the implications of this. What steps does he propose to take to make sure that people do understand and, therefore, can arrange their conduct along the lines which his analysis suggests?
Mr. Higgins: I might suggest that I was going to rely on the right hon. Gentleman to help interpret it. The fact is that these are complex matters, and it is important to get the analysis right. The right hon. Gentleman will agree that it is important that we should seek to analyse these matters as deeply as possible in the House. We then have the question of translating what may seem very technical, dull, dusty, stuff into ordinary, every-day terms. Both of these problems are important, but I wanted this evening to concentrate on the technical level, rather than the aspect of communications with those outside the House.
Mr. Roy Jenkins: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman can answer one specific question of fact that I raised yesterday. Is the 2½ per cent.-a-quarter increase in bank lending above the present level or above the 105 per cent. ceiling?
Mr. Higgins: I shall certainly revert to that question, and I hope that we shall be able to clarify it, but I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will excuse me now, because I want to cover a number of other important points.
There are three minor Budget Resolutions which I should like to mention briefly before I turn to the reform of indirect taxation. One concerns the use of liquified petroleum gases as fuel in road vehicles. Although use for this purpose is not very widespread, it does at present give users an unfair fiscal advantage over others and also poses a threat to the revenue from hydrocarbon oil for the future. It is proposed to put this right by taking power to levy a duty, related approximately to that on petrol on these gases; it will come into effect from a date to be determined later.
The other change in Customs and Excise duties is a purely technical one affecting the definition of dutiable bingo; the opportunity is being taken to stop-up the possible loophole for cash and "prize" bingo which stems from a defect in the wording of an exemption intended for other games. This is simply a safeguard,

1807
and no effective change is intended in the scope of the duty charge as hitherto generally understood.
Finally in this small group of measures, I should like to refer to a change in the vehicle excise duty. Generally, no major changes have been proposed. However, provision will be included in the Finance Bill to put right a flaw in the legislation, which has permitted some vehicles to pay only the agricultural rate of duty and to run on rebated fuel although used mainly on the public roads. The new provision will limit the category of "agricultural tractor" to exclude both certain adaptations of Land Rovers and also articulated vehicles used to deliver agricultural commodities to farmers. This correction of the law, which we propose to take effect from 1st September, will bring a small benefit to the revenue, as indicated in the Financial Statement.
I turn now to the point which has been concentrated upon by many hon. Members—the reform of indirect taxation. In his Budget Statement, my right hon. Friend said that he had decided to abolish selective employment tax and purchase tax and introduce a value-added tax in April, 1973. Before I come to that, I want to say something about the selective employment tax.
The hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) came up with the extraordinary argument that there is no serious argument against S.E.T. After the many hours he and I have spent together on Finance Bill debates, I find that truly extraordinary. I do not think we have ever heard a more bizarre argument in favour of it than his today—which is that manufacturers would prefer not to have these forced loans taken away from them because they were relying on it to raise loans as security. That was the most far-out argument in favour of S.E.T. I have ever heard.
It rather reminds one of what the then Chief Secretary had to say two years ago, when he said that S.E.T., like other new taxes, had
"… followed a general pattern of acceptability—that the moment the first announcement of them is made they are greeted with considerable interest; then that is followed by a sense of complete bewilderment; next one gets mounting opposition; this leads to a long and bitter campaign against the tax … and this in turn leads to a long and, as far as I
1808
can see, never-ending period of grumbling acquiescence"—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 21st April, 1969; Vol. 782, c. 45.]
That has not proved to be the case with S.E.T. The campaign against it has mounted steadily, and, while hon. Members opposite may say that this was the result of sustained propaganda, there is a great deal more to it than that. The general public genuinely and widely and rightly believe the tax to be biased and unfair. For that reason, I am sure that it is right that we should first of all halve it and then abolish it.
I want to say something about a point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry last night. He seemed to be suggesting that we should abolish S.E.T. but not impose a value-added tax. What we are seeking to do is abolish both S.E.T. and purchase tax and substitute what we believe is a much more sensible tax. The implication of what he said was that purchase tax is somehow a good tax. I do not think it a Conservative tax because it tends to distort the general pattern of consumer expenditure. Although when previously in office we reduced the rates and narrowed the bands, the last Government widened the bands and increased the rates. Even so, it is a bad tax as such, and this clearly came out in the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Mr. Trew). He made a very fine speech. It began perhaps the discussion which we shall have on the Green Paper on the value-added tax.
I stress that we looked at all the possible alternatives to a value-added tax before coming out in favour of it. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) is anxious to get away from purchase tax to a value-added tax. It looks as though he is putting himself out of what has been one of his major jobs over the years—advocating the abolition of purchase tax.
The alternatives we examined were numerous. We looked first at a general employment tax, but this could not be rebated on exports nor charged on imports, and would leave us at a competitive disadvantage in all markets. We looked at a retail sales tax, but, at the level needed to replace purchase tax and S.E.T., it would put too great a burden on retailers and would be administratively impossible. Cascade taxes on the

1809
old Continental model create economic disportions and are largely discredited now.
After considering the alternatives, we came to the firm conclusion that a value-added tax was undoubtedly the best way to carry out the necessary reform of indirect taxation. It avoids the economic distortions of selective taxes and their disadvantages to the balance of payments, and, while being in form a multistage tax, it is in effect a broadly based tax on consumer expenditure on goods and services, with the power to raise substantial revenue from moderate rates.
We have not been alone in recognising the merits of the value-added tax. France Germany, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, Sweden and Norway have all adopted the value-added tax system, and Italy and Ireland are planning to do so. Member States of the E.E.C. are required to adopt the value-added tax system, and if our application to join the Common Market is successful, we shall in any case have to have a value-added tax. But although the European considerations are important, they are not the main reasons for adopting this tax. We have decided on value-added tax on its own merits, because it is a better tax than S.E.T. and purchase tax, or any of the other alternatives.
It is a comprehensive tax, and it would run counter to the object of our tax reform and cause serious administrative complexities if we were to introduce a large number of special cases, but there are certain areas where relief from the tax would be justified. My right hon. Friend announced that there will be relief for food, except, perhaps, those few items already subject to purchase tax, for newspapers, periodicals and books, and he said that there would be an exemption for small traders.
The Green Paper on value-added tax mentions certain other areas where special treatment may be required, such as housing and accommodation, finance, health, education, charities and religious institutions. No decision has been taken on these matters, and one of the main purposes of the Green Paper is to provide a basis for discussion and consultation with those concerned on the treatment of such sectors. The Customs
1810
and Excise will be glad to learn their views and to enter discussions with them.
The rate or rates of the tax will, of course, be a budgetary matter to be decided in the light of the circumstances nearer the time. Until the rates and the exact coverage of the tax have been decided, no prediction can be made of the possible effects on the cost of living, or on different social groups, and there is, therefore, no foundation for the extravagant fears which were expressed by the Leader of the Opposition in this respect last Tuesday.
I should like finally to say a few words about the other possible solutions to our problems which have been mentioned by hon. Members opposite. I take up one mentioned by the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton and by the hon. Member for Ashfield. The hon. Member for Heywood and Royton said that we should go for growth on a much more imaginative scale than 3 per cent. It is very important to distinguish between growth in output and growth in productive potential. If we attempt to expand at a significantly higher rate than we are planning, what we shall do will be to revert very quickly to stop-go economic policies. We should simply expand and hit our head on the productive potential ceiling and get back to the old cycle.
What we must do, therefore, is to encourage by every means possible the basis of our plans and to put forward proposals for encouraging investment. This is what the Budget does. It makes a substantial increase in the size of the market available to producers, and this will increase investment prospects. In addition, it reduces corporation tax and improves incentives, and it will add to the cash flow out of which investment can be financed. The halving of S.E.T. will itself improve confidence. improve liquidity and encourage expansion. In addition to these present changes, the firm prospect of radical reform and simplification of the tax structure will give a fillip to enterprise and saving and investment in the economy.
So the three strands of my right hon. Friend's Budget—short-run management of the economy, a massive programme to improve our tax system and a long-run strategy for growth—all work together.

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As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has said, we are seeking to change the course of the nation so that we can indeed ensure that the real standard of living of the country moves forward at a progressively higher rate.
This is, indeed, a historic Budget. It is a Budget which embodies responsible reflation, reform and resurgence, resurgence of Conservative principles and of confidence in our future, and as such it deserves the support of the House.
Debate adjourned.—[Mr. Goodhew]
Debate to be resumed Tomorrow.

POLICE (WIDOWS' PENSIONS)
10.0 p.m.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Richard Sharpies): I beg to move,
That the Police Pensions (Amendment) Regulations. 1971, a draft of which was laid before this House on 4th March, be approved.
These Regulations amend the Police Pensions Regulations, 1971, by easing the conditions which need to be fulfilled before the pensions of certain police widows may be increased at the discretion of the policy authority.
Before 1948 police officers did not contribute to the State pension scheme. As a result, certain police widows are not entitled to contributory National Insurance pensions. It has been the policy, since 1948, that police authorities should have discretion to increase the police pensions which are paid to these widows so that no such widow is worse off than she would have been had her husband's contributions qualified her for the National Insurance pension.
Entitlement to a National Insurance pension, which is at present £5 a week, is subject to a number of conditions. One of these is that the marriage must have lasted for three years, and another that the widow had attained the age of 50, either at the date of her husband's death or at the time she ceased to receive a widowed mother's allowance.
Under the National Insurance (Old persons' and widows' pensions and attendance allowance) Act, 1970, for National Insurance purposes the stipulation about the length of the marriage is done away with, and the condition of having attained age 50 is lowered to
1812
age 40. But at the same time the National Insurance pensions of widows who benefit through the relaxed conditions will be the normal £5 a week scaled down by 7 per cent. for each year by which their age was under 50 at the material time.
The draft Police Pensions Regulations now before the House make corresponding relaxations in the conditions subject to which discretionary increases in police widows' pensions will be payable.
The draft Regulations are expressed to come into operation on 5th April, 1971, the same day as the corresponding provisions for National Insurance become effective. They have been agreed by the Police Council for the United Kingdom on which the local authority and police staff associations are represented.
10.3 p.m.
Mr. Merlyn Rees: My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Alfred Morris), who is the consultant adviser to the Police Federation, has just told me that these proposals were agreed by the Police Council for the United Kingdom and conveyed to the Secretary of State who eventually consulted the Police Advisory Board under Section 46 of the Police Act, 1964. All of this arose from agreement and in that sense all is well.
I have had no representations at all as a shadow Minister and I simply seek to raise two points with the Minister. I observe that it was just on 8th February that the Regulations bringing together into one instrument the provisions of the Police Pensions Regulations, 1966, and the nine subsequent amending Regulations were made, thus providing a comprehesive pensions scheme. Why, so soon after 8th February, has it been necessary to make this Amendment?
There have been changes in National Insurance and social security in the last day or two. Does this mean we will need another Amendment to deal with that? It may be there is some easy way of avoiding such an Amendment. Apart from that we on this side of the House welcome the Regulations.
10.5 p.m.
Mr. Sharpies: I should like to say, first, how very glad I am to see sitting on the Opposition Front Bench the hon. Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe

1813
(Mr. Alfred Morris), and to know that he will be looking after the interests of the Police Federation in the House. We all very much welcome his appointment, and I much look forward to working with him in his new and very responsible duties.
The hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) asked why these amending Regulations have been brought forward so soon after the consolidation Measure. It is an important point, and I apologise to the House for having to do this. The reason is that the necessary consultation had not taken place when the consolidating Measures were brought forward, with the result that these alterations could not then be included in them.
The same thing goes for the steps that will be necessary to meet the changes in the National Insurance Scheme announced yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security. Naturally, further consultations will have to take place, and I very much regret that amending Regulations will almost certainly be needed to meet the police interest. It is unfortunate that one has to keep on bringing forward amending Regulations as circumstances change, and, from time to time, consolidation Measures are brought forward. I regret that necessity, but I am sure that the House will appreciate the reasons for it.
Question put and agreed to.

STRATH OF KILDONAN
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Hawkins.]
10.7 p.m.
Mr. Robert Maclennan: When the previous Labour Government as their first legislative step in Scotland set up the Highlands and Islands Development Board there were high hopes that at last the Highlands land problem would be tackled radically, and that it would be a first priority of the new Board to invoke its wide powers to carry out studies in depth of integrated, comprehensive land use in selected areas. It was hoped that these studies, with the approval of the Secretary of State for Scotland, would form the basis of action by the Board to provide more
1814
land-based employment for the Highlanders; would ensure more economic use of the land resources of the Highlands; would rectify the ecological imbalance due to at least a century of misuse, so well described by Fraser Darling in his West Highlands Survey, and would open up to more productive and socially useful enterprises the exclusive preserves of the private sporting estates.
Perhaps due to the uproar following its proposals for the afforestation of the Island of Mull, the Highland Development Board embarked somewhat tremulously upon a study of the Strath of Kildonan in Sutherland, an area which the Highland Panel had considered worthy of a study and which the Secretary of State recommended should be given consideration by the new Board. If the expectations aroused in the Highlands by the establishment of the Board have not been fully realised it is, in my view, chiefly because the Board has failed adequately to grapple with the land use problem. Unfortunately, the Board's report on the Strath of Kildonan can do little to reestablish confidence that the Board is possessed of the radical drive needed for such a task.
To be fair to the Board, it must be acknowledged that there were those, some of them living in the Highlands, who, early in the Board's life, sought to destroy its very existence; whose unscrupulousness and wrath would doubtless have known no bounds had the Board embarked on a programme of land reform which directly touched their vested interests. Perhaps it is this very caution of the Board which has ensured its survival, at least temporarily, under this Government.
Perhaps a second reason for the Board's reluctance to tackle the land question was its perfectly fair assessment that, even with the best possible land use in the Highlands, a rapid reversal of the depopulation trend would be effected only by a concentration upon building up manufacturing industry in certain selected natural growth areas. None the less, if the full potentialities of the Highlands are to be realised and their distinctive contribution to our country's life and economy expanded, it is through the development of areas like the Strath of Kildonan that the population will be anchored and the creeping growth of an

1815
awesome wilderness quite bereft of people and culture checked.
I wish to ask the Minister some questions. I should like to express my gratitude to him for being present to answer this debate. The Board's report on the Strath of Kildonan carries the date 2nd April, 1970. Why was it published only two weeks ago? It might be thought that after five years of gestation the report could have come to light more rapidly. Secondly, can the Minister say how much the whole exercise cost? If one is to evaluate the worth of such a study, it is important to know the answer to that. Thirdly, has the Secretary of State, beyond indicating acceptance of the Board's findings and recommendations, made any suggestions as to how those recommendations should be followed up and implemented? Fourthly, is it the Government's view that studies of this kind are valuable and that some of the resources of the Board should be employed on similar exercises in future?
For my part, I wish to make it plain that despite the reserve with which I must greet some of the Board's recommendations and with which I view the criteria which it has employed in considering possible alternative uses of land, I believe that the Board should be not merely encouraged but directed by the Secretary of State to prepare further reports on a comprehensive scale of other Highland areas. In my constituency, Strath Halladale, Strath Naver, Strathmore and Strathbeg would all merit such in-depth study.
I turn briefly to consider the criteria which the Board has employed in recommending the changes of land use proposed. The Board is not always explicit in stating the case for its recommendations, particularly when arguing for the continuation of sporting facilities at much the same level as at present. For example, in paragraph 17 sport is described as
"an existing asset which does bring in an annual income and provides moderate employment opportunities".
The report is stronger on evaluating the cash return to the landed proprietors from sport than it is in comparing the employment potential of the alternative uses of land. By its own evaluation the estate of Achentoul is the least under-used of the six estates in the Strath, and, although it is primarily a sporting estate, I under-
1816
stand that those employed in agriculture and forestry outnumber those employed upon sport by a ratio of approximately four to one. Furthermore, the benefit from the income which the sporting use of the land gives appears not to be enjoyed by those who live in the area, no more than the sporting facilities themselves which the report makes clear are, for the most part, the preserve of the guests of the estates.
The Board seeks to justify even its own limited proposals for afforestation, and they are limited. Indeed, the proposals are half what the Board originally considered—namely, half of the 30,000 acres of plantable land. These proposals and the improvement of existing agriculture are based on the need to maintain a difficult balance between the conflicting land use interests. In my view, the balance has been struck rather oddly. It appears to have been accepted without question that the present number of stags and hinds is about right. Everything else appears to revolve around this fact. This necessarily limits the use of grazings by livestock, particularly cattle, and serves to perpetuate the ecological imbalance in the Strath.
The Board seems to derive satisfaction from the fact that its proposals for afforestation will not impinge on grouse and deer habitat for 10 years. In view of the small employment factor involved in the care of game, I cannot share the Board's satisfaction. I take issue with the Board in having admittedly treated the employment factor as secondary to what it calls
"the more intensive use of land through capital investment."
In fact, it is somewhat unclear what precisely has been the basis of the comparative evaluation.
The Board concludes that it is not primarily concerned with employment. Yet if we turn to paragraph 4 of the report, the following contradictory statement is made:
"The programme is designed to increase the employment opportunities, to raise the productivity of the land through public or private investment and, where possible, and where it is economically justified to allow sporting use of the land to continue, though not necessarily at the same level or in the same form as at present"
It is my view that these multiple objectives are mutually inconsistent

1817
and incompatible, and that it is the Board's failure to follow priorities and to make rational economic comparisons between different possible land uses and the benefit in terms of employment provided by these alternatives that mars the exercise and makes the report that much less worthy than might have been hoped after a prolonged period of study.
Having made clear my basic disagreement with the Board's approach, I turn briefly to its particular proposals and would ask the Under-Secretary what action the Government will take and recommend the Board to take to follow up the proposals that are made. The first specific recommendation is that the Board should assist any small-scale manufacturing of processing which is suggested for the village of Helmsdale. Thus the Board has identified a need for manufacturing industry, but its proposal appears to go no further than to recommend that it should use its normal grant and loan powers to help somebody who happens to come forward with a good idea for development. In my view this is too limited a conception of the executive role which the Board can and must play in the establishment of manufacturing industry. It is, indeed, no different from the role it plays throughout the Highlands at present. This limited conception of its rô is little different from that of a merchant banker, albeit that the source of the funds which the Board can make available is public money and that the terms may be somewhat easier than are available elsewhere.
What is missing from the report is the recognition and admission that the Board's present techniques of assisting others to establish manufacturing industry in the Highlands have had relatively modest, though not negligible, results in an area like Kildonan; and it is in areas like Kildonan that the true problems of the Highland areas will be solved.
Under the 1965 and 1967 Acts the Board is empowered to do much more than it has done in establishing manufacturing industries. If the Board is satisfied that there is scope for a particular project, why does it not follow the Scandinavian example—and I am thinking particularly of Sweden—and itself initiate a project utilising its own con-
1818
siderable resources? It has the money. It has in "Operation Counterdrift" a list of men and women with managerial and technical skills who want to work in the area, and it has on its staff project officers with commercial and accounting experience and expertise who should be at least as well equipped to propose suitable projects as to dispose of other people's projects.
The other specific proposals of the Board also call for comment. At this time when there is so much uncertainty about grants for fishing vessels, I should be interested to know from the Under-Secretary of State what is happening to the proposal of the Board that one new fishing vessel should come to Helmsdale. Is it dependent upon local fishermen putting up their own capital and, if so, what share of the capital? As capital grants have not been forthcoming since the Government's announcement on 28th October of a cut of 25 per cent., there is some doubt whether this can be got off the ground.
Village planning in Helmsdale is well under way, thanks to the authorisation of the previous Government of the £500,000 project for the bridging of the river and the realignment of the road. This will enormously improve the amenity of the village of Helmsdale and help to attract night-stopping tourists to the area.
Most of the other recommendations on the development of tourism in the area are common sense and I have no doubt they will be followed up by the local authority and the local tourist association. What the Board sadly neglected was any consideration of the possible use by tourists of the local sporting facilities. True, it mentions in passing sea angling, but no attention is given to the possible improvement of trout fishings, admittedly not very close to Helmsdale, but there are lochs in the area which could have been developed. Local initiative has established an angling association which provides for fishing on the tidal stretches of the River Helms-dale. Although there is divided opinion in Helmsdale, I imagine it will offer some scope for passing tourists. These provisions of the report are pretty small beer, and the report will stand to be judged by its proposals on land use.

1819
Will the Under-Secretary of State consider whether the technical evaluation and the comparisons contained in the report are the best that could scientifically be done because, in my view, they are not. Finally, will the proposals be followed up, and shall we see future reports on land development in the Highlands?
10.24 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Development, Scottish Office (Mr. George Younger): I should like to start by thanking the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) for his remarks at the beginning of his speech this evening and congratulating him on his good fortune in getting this Adjournment debate on a subject on which I know he feels strongly and which he and his constituents have been talking about for a very long time.
I, too, consider this a very important matter for the development of the far north of Scotland, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving us the opportunity to discuss this subject tonight.
I think that we are all grateful to the Highlands and Islands Development Board for producing the interesting and useful report which we are discussing. As the hon. Gentleman made clear, the report had its origin in a recommendation by the previous body to the Highlands and Islands Development Board. I am glad that the Board has been able to conclude the report. This has involved a lot of work by the staff of the Board as well as by members of the Board, some of whom have spent considerable time helping with this matter.
In answer to one of the hon. Gentleman's questions, the Board estimates that the total cost of the production of this report was about £9,500. This includes on-costs and the travelling expenses of those taking part in the study. In addition, the designing and printing of the report, the whole of which was done in Inverness, cost a further £620. The report retails at 80p, and the Board is no doubt waiting to see what receipts it will get from its sales. I do not think that this cost is excessive in relation to the large amount of information provided and also the chance that it gives to provide a per-
1820
spective into a real problem which has been with the Highlands for a very long time, an area whose past and future has for long been the subject of controversy.
The hon. Gentleman also asked about the timing of the publication. This report was first submitted to my right hon. Friend's predecessor in April, 1970, as a formal proposal under Section 3(1)(b) of the Highlands and Islands Development Act. Before that, in accordance with the Act, it had been seen in draft in confidence and discussed with all those directly concerned, and the final version takes full account of the views expressed in those consultations.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who came into office in June, also then received and considered the report. He expressed the hope that it would be possible to pursue a good many of the recommendations put into the report by the Board. I repeat that hope tonight.
There was then the question of the reappointment of the Board. The new Board finally came into office in November, 1970. That new Board, too, took on the report and had to give its own consideration and attention to the recommendations in it. It has done so and is still doing so.
There is, therefore, no significance or special reason for it having taken so long for the report to be published since its original production in April, 1970. It has been due to the coincidence of a change of Secretary of State and a substantial change of Board membership covering that period. I am glad that it has now been published. I hope that it will be read with great care by many people, particularly by those who live in the area.
The hon. Gentleman knows that the Board has a comprehensive report in train on the potential development in the Island of Mull. It has also got under consideration the undertaking of further studies thereafter.
I noted with interest—I am sure that the Board will also note with interest —the views of the hon. Gentleman about the value of such reports and his hope that further reports can be made in future.
I consider this report and the idea of having such reports most valuable and a proper function for the Highlands and

1821
Islands Development Board. I hope that it will in due course, whenever it thinks it appropriate to do so, undertake studies of other such problem areas in the Highlands and that it will do its best to act upon as many as possible of the recommendations of such reports for the future.
The main conclusion of the report was that the present feasibility of resources in the Kildonan area is limited, with little of a strictly commercial nature which can be done obviously and quickly. But within these limits the report concentrates on what is feasible and possible—rightly, I believe. It sets out a collection of policy proposals which add up to a development programme. The Board has no overriding power to do this or to take into its own hands every action recommended in the report. Not only are the Board and others in the area involved, but also the local county council planning committee. But the Board will use its good offices and financial powers to achieve as many of these recommendations as possible.
The hon. Member asked about following up the report. I have said that these reports are valuable, but it is not up to us to suggest to the Board what other studies it should do. Such things are valuable and I am sure that the Board will do more if and when they are thought appropriate.
The hon. Member asked about the recommendation on the need for a further fishing vessel at Helmsdale. The Board accepts this specific recommendation and will use its power to help it to be carried out. The fishermen concerned, who have been told of this, are looking for suitable second-hand boats with which to play their part. The Board would be prepared to give loans, as it is empowered to do, and it is waiting to consider any proposal.
Mr. Maclennan: There is one important matter which I did not raise and on which I should be glad of help. The Minister knows, from correspondence which we have had, that the harbour at Helmsdale is almost silted up. He helped by sending a dredger. There is a fear that long-range changes are taking place in the ecological structure of that area. Can he help to have these matters studied quickly, and if possible have the harbour put in full working order again?
Mr. Younger: I am anxious to give any help I can, and I will investigate that and write to the hon. Gentleman about it.
The hon. Member also said that he was not entirely satisfied that the technical evaluations behind the report were right. This must always be a matter of opinion and it is not for me to go into the technical background and declare it unsuitable. This must be left to those technically involved in preparing the report, although I am certain that they will note carefully what he said.
From my reading of the report, it is obvious that a serious and genuine effort has been made to work out answers to the difficult question whether—and, if so, how—an expansion of the agricultural activities of the area merit serious consideration from the commercial point of view.
As the hon. Gentleman knows from his reading of the report, the conclusion is reached that there is only a limited potential for increased agricultural activity, though I am bound to say that things should be that little bit easier than they were at the time when the report was written, in view of the extra help that has been given to hill sheep farmers generally. It is a marginal difference, but a movement which is certainly not in the wrong direction.
The report was also concerned with the possibilities for the development of forestry and the hon. Gentleman mentioned that he was somewhat disappointed that the potential was not as great as he had hoped. The Forestry Commission regards the target of 15,000 acres to be achieved over 20 years as realistic for the area, but stresses that its fulfilment should not necessarily be regarded as the concern of the Commission alone. It hopes that private landowners will contribute to the programme by undertaking planting themselves, for which, of course, grant-aid would normally be available.
The Commission has an important reservation about the financial return quoted on page 26. The rate of 3-6 per cent. given in the report depends on the assumption that wood-using industries would be established within reasonable reach of the plantations. It would not

1823
be valid if the timber had to be transported to markets as distant as, say, the pulp mill at Fort William. Further, inclusion of the cost of the land and overheads in full would substantially reduce the return which could be expected, and as the yield class must depend on the actual parcels of land offered for forestry and an average yield class of 100, the figure used for calculations in the report, may prove to be optimistic.
There is also the problem of remoteness. It is not absolutely clear to the
1824
Commission that the whole of this acreage could be developed with full potential because of the difficulties of access to large parts of the acreage. Thus in addition—
The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at twenty-three minutes to Eleven o'clock.

EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  National Library for Science and Invention
  National Library for Science and Invention
  Dyslexia
  Dyslexia
  New Schools (Cost)
  New Schools (Cost)
  Private School, Scotland (Mentally Retarded Children)
  Private School, Scotland (Mentally Retarded Children)
  Primary School Projects
  Primary School Projects
  School Meals
  School Meals
  New Schools (Minimum Floor Areas)
  New Schools (Minimum Floor Areas)
  School Building Costs (London)
  School Building Costs (London)
  Immigrants (Schools for Educationally Sub-normal)
  Immigrants (Schools for Educationally Sub-normal)
  School Milk
  School Milk
  Schizophrenia
  Schizophrenia
  Teachers (Length of Service)
  Teachers (Length of Service)
  Sex Education
  Sex Education
  Nursery Schools
  Nursery Schools
  Teachers (Pay)
  Teachers (Pay)
  Works of Art (Conservation)
  Works of Art (Conservation)
  Tuition Fees
  Tuition Fees
  Domenichino Painting
  Domenichino Painting
  St. George the Martyr School, Holborn
  St. George the Martyr School, Holborn
  Student Unions
  Student Unions
  Expenditure Per Pupil
  Expenditure Per Pupil
  Sandwich Meals
  Sandwich Meals
  CERN
  CERN
  School Building Programme (London)
  School Building Programme (London)
  Handicapped Children (Statistics)
  Handicapped Children (Statistics)
EMPLOYMENT
  Aylesford, Kent
  Aylesford, Kent
  Trade Union Membership
  Trade Union Membership
  Industrial Disputes
  Industrial Disputes
  Regional Statistics
  Regional Statistics
  Sheltered Workshop (Doncaster)
  Sheltered Workshop (Doncaster)
  Halewood (Official Visit)
  Halewood (Official Visit)
  Redundancies (Scotland)
  Redundancies (Scotland)
  Teachers' Salaries
  Teachers' Salaries
  Industrial Relations Bill
  Industrial Relations Bill
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Unemployment
  Unemployment
  Interest on Loans (Tax Relief)
  Interest on Loans (Tax Relief)
  Balance of Payments
  Balance of Payments
  Hire-Purchase Charges (Tax Relief)
  Hire-Purchase Charges (Tax Relief)
  Vehicles (Taxation)
  Vehicles (Taxation)
  Husbands and Wives (Separate Assessments)
  Husbands and Wives (Separate Assessments)
TRADE AND INDUSTRY
  Newspapers (Government Subsidy)
  Newspapers (Government Subsidy)
  Nationalised Industries (Executive and Management Salaries)
  Nationalised Industries (Executive and Management Salaries)
  Electricity (Overhead Transmission)
  Electricity (Overhead Transmission)
  Ford Motor Company
  Ford Motor Company
SOCIAL SERVICES
  Magistrates and Councillors (Unemployment Benefit)
  Magistrates and Councillors (Unemployment Benefit)
  Family Planning Service (Aberdeen)
  Family Planning Service (Aberdeen)
  Social Service Councils
  Social Service Councils
  Meals-on-Wheels Service
  Meals-on-Wheels Service
  Hospitals and Institutions (Deaths)
  Hospitals and Institutions (Deaths)
  Family Income Supplement
  Family Income Supplement
  Welfare Milk and Foods
  Welfare Milk and Foods
  Medresco Hearing-Aids
  Medresco Hearing-Aids
  POSTAL WORKERS' STRIKE (PRIME MINISTER'S CORRESPONDENCE)
  POSTAL WORKERS' STRIKE (PRIME MINISTER'S CORRESPONDENCE)
  NORTH LINCOLNSHIRE
  NORTH LINCOLNSHIRE
  MINISTRY OF AVIATION SUPPLY (RESPONSIBILITIES)
  MINISTRY OF AVIATION SUPPLY (RESPONSIBILITIES)
  OIL SUPPLIES (INTERNATIONAL CONSULTATION)
  OIL SUPPLIES (INTERNATIONAL CONSULTATION)
  BANKING
  BANKING
  MR. HENRY FORD (DISCUSSIONS)
  MR. HENRY FORD (DISCUSSIONS)
  NEW TOWNS, SCOTLAND
  NEW TOWNS, SCOTLAND
  MINISTERS (FINANCIAL INTERESTS)
  MINISTERS (FINANCIAL INTERESTS)
  CABINET (FOREIGN OFFICE MINISTERS)
  CABINET (FOREIGN OFFICE MINISTERS)
DEFENCE
  Civilian Docks, Portsmouth (Extension)
  Civilian Docks, Portsmouth (Extension)
  Fleet Air Arm Fixed Wing Squadrons (Senior Officers)
  Fleet Air Arm Fixed Wing Squadrons (Senior Officers)
  Injured Servicemen, Northern Ireland (Compensation)
  Injured Servicemen, Northern Ireland (Compensation)
  Leave Railway Warrants
  Leave Railway Warrants
  Royal Navy Flying Units (R.A.F. Aircrew)
  Royal Navy Flying Units (R.A.F. Aircrew)
ENVIRONMENT
  A30, Bridestowe
  A30, Bridestowe
  Housing, Thamesmead (Unit Costs)
  Housing, Thamesmead (Unit Costs)
  Local Authorities (Mortgage Lending)
  Local Authorities (Mortgage Lending)
  Nationalised Industries (Executive and Management Personnel)
  Nationalised Industries (Executive and Management Personnel)
SCOTLAND
  North Isles of Orkney (Electricity)
  North Isles of Orkney (Electricity)
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Overseas Aid
  Overseas Aid
  Jerusalem (Jewish Settlement)
  Jerusalem (Jewish Settlement)

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Rochester.

SOCIAL SECURITY STATEMENT: PROCEDURE
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE): My Lords, yesterday afternoon I decided, after consultation through the usual channels, that it would be for the convenience of the House if a Statement on National Insurance uprating was not repeated here, because of its length and because of its detailed nature. It has been represented to me on more than one occasion, and indeed from all quarters of your Lordships' House, that we should wherever possible seek to avoid the interruption of debates. On this occasion, and in my then knowledge of the contents of the Statement, I agreed with this view and with the corollary that we should not come between the Welsh in their important preoccupations yesterday.
Since then, my Lords, some noble Lords have made representations to me that they would have wished the Statement to have been repeated here. I can only say to those noble Lords who are interested in this subject—and understandably so—that I am sorry they were disappointed. It is always very difficult to decide which Statements should be repeated in this House and which should not, and yesterday's new procedure, whereby the text of the Statement was circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT, was a genuine attempt to meet an admitted difficulty. I should like to say that I very much regret that the Statement, as finally made by my right honourable friend, contained details of which the usual channels were not aware when they agreed to its not being repeated here.
That said, I should like to apologise to noble Lords, wherever they are in your Lordships' House, if for that reason they were denied an opportunity which otherwise they would have wished to take of
1446
questioning my noble friend on this matter. I hope your Lordships will accept that there is always—and, I think, inevitably—a difficult balance of convenience to strike between the interests of those who are taking part in a debate, and the interests of those who—again, quite understandably—wish to have Statements repeated in your Lordships' House.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I understand that this is not a personal Statement on which one cannot comment, but that the noble Earl is explaining, in his capacity as Leader of the House, what happened in a very unfortunate way. I think the noble Earl has apologised to the House. It was not a very forthright apology, I am bound to say. This is a matter of great difficulty for any Leader, or indeed for the usual channels who have to make a judgment of this kind. But this Statement ultimately contained material of a highly contenious kind and the House as a whole is entitled to have these Statements. There is no doubt that, inadvertently—and I accept that the noble Earl did not know what was in the Statement—he was misled, and so were we. But of course this puts my noble friends who had to help in taking this decision in a very difficult position indeed, and we could be equally blamed for what, I am bound to say (although I realise that these things happen), was a piece of what can only be described as the most extraordinary incompetence on the Government's side. As I said, these things happen and I know that Statements are often prepared at the last moment. But the really crucial material was not available, and I can only wish that the noble Earl had given a rather more forthright apology.

BUSINESS: THE INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS BILL
EARL ST ALDWYN: My Lords, in view of the very large number of speakers who will be taking part in the debate on Monday on the Second Reading of the Industrial Relations Bill, dinner will be available.
BRITISH ALUMINIUM (SALTBURN PIER) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Read 3a, and passed.
INDUSTRY BILL
Read 3a, and passed.
LAND COMMISSION (DISSOLUTION) BILL
Read 3a, and passed.

INTEREST ON DAMAGES (SCOTLAND) BILL
3.13 p.m.
LORD BALERNO: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. For the Scot, it is a small but by no means an unimportant Bill. It has come to us from another place, where it was a Private Member's Bill. There it was well discussed and amended in Committee. It was supported by the complete political spectrum and opposed by nobody. As the law of Scotland stands at present, the court has power to award interest on damages from the date of the decree back to the date of the beginning of the court action. The prime purpose of this Bill is to empower the court to award interest back to the date of the accident or other event which caused the action in the first place. Secondly, where the damages consist of or include damages for personal injuries, the court is obliged to exercise this power unless there are special reasons why interest should not be awarded. My Lords, the justice and the common sense of both these points is so obvious that I do not propose to take up the time of your Lordships in arguing the case. Nor will I cite the representations from law societies that have been made in favour of this action, both from Scotland and from England, where the law has already been amended.
There are three minor points. In the first draft of this Bill it was proposed that interest should be awarded only when the sum of the damages was £200 or over. That is the case in England. However, a full debate on this point took place in Committee in another place. The matter was well argued and the conclusion approved by all, including the Lord Advocate: it was that there should be no limit so far as Scotland is concerned. The next point is that Clause 1(2), in the interests of clarity, says.
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"damages' includes solatium"—
that is, compensation for pain and suffering; and, likewise,
"personal injuries' includes any disease and any impairment of a person's physical or mental condition".
Clause 2(2) deals with the point of application at the moment the Act is passed. This is perhaps a little tricky. On the Committee stage there was considerable discussion again on this point, and again unanimous agreement was reached that the decisive point is the moment at which evidence is given. The Act therefore would not apply to any action in which the proof or trial has taken place at the time of its passing. Finally, my Lords, I draw your Lordships' attention to a probable "spin off" from the Bill in the acceleration of justice. Where one party to an action has a somewhat doubtful case, he will have to weigh carefully any advantage there may be in delay at any stage against the extra interest he will have to pay if he loses his case. To my untutored eye, this is a major reason for supporting the Bill.
My Lords, however it is conceived, a Private Member's Bill is born with a disadvantage: it is under-privileged. That this one has survived to reach your Lordships' House is evidence of how much it is wanted, of how good and how useful it is. With so much major legislation in hand in another place, the survival of this Bill is a token of the unanimous good will of all Parties. I beseech your Lordships to cherish it so that it may grow up into a useful and valuable Act. I beg to move.
Moved, that the Bill be now read 2a. —(Lord Balerno.)
3.18 p.m.
LORD HOY: My Lords, I can assure your Lordships immediately that I shall not detain the House for more than a couple of minutes. My job really is to signify the assent, and indeed the approval, of this side of the House to this particular Bill. We are greatly indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Balerno, for explaining what it does in such a concise way. As I understand it, persons awarded damages in Scotland are less favourably placed in the matter of interest payments than their counterparts in England, and as a result of differences

1449
between English and Scottish law a Scottish pursuer can claim interest for a shorter period than can an English person. I understand that that is what we are proposing to put right here. The only question I should like to ask is how the Scots ever allowed themselves to get into this position. Secondly, I noted with approval what took place in Committee in another place when the limit of £200 was dealt with. I then came to the conclusion that we were playing for safety; that we were ensuring that we should not be left behind in the race once more, and that that is why the change took place. With those words, I am delighted, on behalf of my noble friends and myself, to be able to say how much we approve this particular Bill.
3.20 p.m.
LORD WHEATLEY: My Lords, there is a feeling in certain quarters that the good intentions of Parliament are often frustrated by the narrow interpretation placed upon an Act of Parliament by the judges. It may be thought that my intervention at this stage was carrying the process into the legislative Chamber. So may I say, for the removal of doubt, that I entirely approve of the purpose of this Bill. The reason for this Bill is, I think, twofold. In the first place, as the noble Lord, Lord Hoy, pointed out, it brings the law of Scotland into conformity with the law of England. But, secondly, it is due to the fact that a narrow construction was placed by the judges in the Court of Session on the Act of 1958, a narrow construction which in the eyes of some people was deemed to run contrary to the intendment of that statute. It is in order to remove any doubts created as a result of that decision and to bring the law into conformity with what is conceived to be the justice and equity of the position that this Bill is produced.
I should not like it to be thought that the narrow interpretation placed upon the Act of 1958 was due to an over-rigorous application by the judges in the Court of Session, because the judges are under an obligation to construe what Parliament has enacted. The judges have to seek from the wording of the statute what must be deemed to have been the intention of Parliament. If their construction be a narrow one, the fault is not necessarily their's; the fault may be that of Parliament in so framing the legislation as to
1450
drive the Judiciary to that inevitable conclusion. Accordingly, while approving wholeheartedly of the purpose of this Bill, I want to raise a number of points in order to secure so far as possible that a similar fate does not befall this Bill, when it becomes an Act of Parliament, as befell its predecessor.
At the risk of wearying your Lordships may I. point out that the purpose of this small Bill is to deal with the matter of interest in actions for damages, and in so far as the different elements of damages may be constituted at different times it very properly makes provision for different rates of interest and, if need be, for different periods from the very date when the right of action arose until the decree has been granted in the courts. The proposed new subsection (1) makes that permissive; but in relation to actions for personal injuries the subsection, by way of a mandatory direction, requires the court to award interest at perhaps differential rates and for differential periods according to the constituent elements of the damages, subject to two reservations. It is particularly in relation to these reservations that I wish to raise a number of questions.
As your Lordships will observe, the proposed new subsection (1A) provides that the court will exercise its powers to award interest so as to include in the principal sum the "interest on those damages or on such part of them as the court considers appropriate". To what extent does that phrase, "as the court considers appropriate", qualify the otherwise mandatory power? In the decision which was thought to emasculate the provisions of the 1958 Act the court took the view that in deciding where and what interest should be awarded the court must have regard to certain legal principles. These legal principles were twofold: in the first place, that the award had to be selective in regard to the constituent elements of damages; and, secondly, that since interest is awarded not as compensation but to recoup the pursuer for the money he has been out of for a period after it fell due, any sum required to be liquidated—that is, properly assessed by the court—before it became a principal sum on which interest could run. It was on the basis of these principles that the very fine distinctions in the case to which I referred, of McRae v. Reed and Mallik

1451
Ltd. in 1961 were founded. It is to remove some of these difficulties that this Bill has been introduced.
I should like to ask whether, having regard to the phrase "as the court considers appropriate", the court would be entitled to regard as a relevant consideration and something which was appropriate observance of these self-same principles of law.
I now turn to the next phrase, because there is a further qualification:
"unless it is satisfied that there are special reasons why no interest should be given …".
Again I pose the same question. Under that phrase, would it be a special reason for not awarding interest on damages that the constituent element in respect of which interest is sought is something which, by the existing law of Scotland, should not attract interest because it has not been a liquidated sum? If that be the case, it means that to all intents and purposes we are back to square one and back to the 1958 Act. Therefore, I would urge that those who are sponsoring this Bill and guiding it to its final destiny pay particular regard to that fact to see whether or not the Bill requires strengthening to avoid the pitfall into which its predecessor fell.
There are no guidelines—and perhaps I am now speaking in rather a syndicalistic way on behalf of my colleagues and myself—to guide the court as to how it should differentiate on this question of variable elements on which interest may be awarded. The wording in the Bill follows exactly the wording of the English Act as amended by the Act of 1969. There the court had to devise some sort of formula to meet this situation when Parliament had given no guide as to how it ought to be operated. In the case of Jefford v. Gee in 1970, the Court of Appeal in England, exercising a broad axe with a blunt edge, decided to lay down a certain code of practice as a guidance and not as a rule. I will not weary your Lordships with how it was worked out in regard to the different elements; but obviously it operated on the basis of the broad axe with a blunt edge.
I wonder whether the sponsors of this Bill expect Scottish courts to follow the same lines; because it is one thing
1452
for a court reviewing judgment to say it is a bad judgment because it offends against certain well-established principles; it is another matter for a review court to say it is a bad judgment because it offends against a proposed recommended code of practice. I am rather afraid, as the Bill stands, that even if the narrow interpretation cannot be put on, as well it may, the court is still left in a grave difficulty. If the solution be to allow the court to make these rather broad rules based on no guidelines, I wonder whether it is not really the responsibility of Parliament to say "In the interest of equity and justice we will undertake the obligation of making these broad distinctions and laying down these broad guidelines and let us not in due course blame the court for frustrating the intention of Parliament by ruling that the Act meant something different from what Parliament intended."
If I may, I will draw attention to two other matters which I think are of importance. The first of these relates to what might well be an inconsistency in this Bill with the parent Act. In the parent Act provision is made in respect of appeals from an interlocutor of the sheriff court in a jury trial to the Court of Session in order to make provision under the 1958 Act for an appeal on this question of interest. Accordingly, in Section 2 of the 1958 Act an additional ground of appeal in jury trials held in the sheriff court is provided for; namely, that no interest has been awarded, or that the interest awarded is either inadequate or excessive. Then the section goes on to provide that the Appeal Court can make such order regarding interest as to it seems just.
On what basis has the Appeal Court to consider such an appeal "as to it seems just"? Is it to interpret that "as to it seems just" having regard to the principles now to be embodied in the parent Act by this amending Bill? Or is it a general discretion given to the Appeal Court to decide the matter on the broad general principles of justice and equity? Because in that situation if you have the narrow interpretation of what is proposed in the Bill you are going to have two standards of appeal procedure operated under the same Act, and that is manifestly undesirable.

1453
The last point I want to make is a very technical one, but I think it is a real one. It relates to what we call tenders. The proposed new subsection (1A) relates to an action for damages for personal injury. One way in which that action, having been brought into court, could be terminated is for the defender to lodge a judicial tender of a certain sum of money in satisfaction of the claim made against him, without prejudice to his denial of liability. If the pursuer accepts that, by a minute of acceptance, then the pursuer is entitled to move the court for decree in terms of the minute of tender as accepted, and decree would then pass; and that would be a decree for the damages in respect of personal injuries such as is envisaged in the proposed new subsection (1A).
But in such a tender the sum tendered is not broken up into constituent elements, and therefore the court is not in a position, as it would be after a proof or a jury trial, of having evidence on which the court might very well separate the constituent elements. This is merely a lump sum and under a tender of acceptance the court would have no means of knowing how to split up the constituent elements because no evidence has been laid. So in that situation it would seem that the court might be driven to the position where it could not award interest on damages where the action was settled by this procedure, and a manifest injustice might be done to people who settled by this means because they would be deprived of the benefit which the proposed new subsection intended to give them.
My Lords, I am very well aware of the fact that I have occupied too much of your Lordships' time, but may I finish on two points? I realise that those sponsoring this Bill are not lawyers and therefore they may not have the answers to the points that I have raised. I would not be disappointed; nay, I would not expect them to be able to answer these points at this notice. But having recorded the points I should like them to consider with the legal advisers, between now and a subsequent stage of the Bill, whether these points require to be considered.
Some of the points may not require anything; some might be met by minor
1454
amendment; others may be more radical, if it should be decided that it is Parliament who should undertake the responsibility of deciding how this formula should be worked out and it is not left to the courts, with all the elasticity that is envisaged in the Bill. And it may be thought that, having regard to the pressure of work in another place, and the large number of Private Members' Bills which may have to be referred back from here to another place, there would be danger of this Bill being lost if we were to amend it at all, since time could not be found for it in the other place.
May I urge your Lordships and those sponsoring this Bill not to accede to that argument because it would mean—and ex hypothesi of my argument it certainly would mean—that we would be passing an imperfect Bill which might give rise to a great deal of trouble and frustrate the whole purpose and the good intentions of those who brought the Bill before Parliament. I think it better not to have bad legislation than to seek half-baked legislation that might create as much damage as the good it undoubtedly proposes to do.
3.35 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE): My Lords, I am glad to be able to assure the noble Lord, Lord Balerno, that he certainly has the Government's support for this Bill; and indeed it appears that he has the support of the House and certainly of noble Lords on the Benches opposite as the noble Lord, Lord Hoy, has indicated. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wheatley, gave, I think, his general support, but he also raised some very difficult questions of law. He was good enough to advise my noble friend Lord Balerno that he would probably speak on these points. Having to speak from this Bench, I have of course taken legal advice and perhaps I may make some comments on these matters. I will certainly undertake, as the noble and learned Lord asked, to consider the questions further between this and the next stage in the progress of the Bill because I agree with him that it is important that, so far as possible, Bills should be made to work.
My Lords, I will not repeat the purpose of the Bill except just briefly to describe to the House why the Government are

1455
very glad to support it, because it confers on the Scottish courts powers that are similar to those already vested in the English courts by the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1934. These were designed to ensure that, save in exceptional circumstances, a person who has suffered personal injury as the result of the negligence or wrongful act of another, shall be awarded interest on at least part of the damages awarded by the court from the date of the accident or other event which gave rise to the right of action.
My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wheatley, asked particularly whether this Bill was so framed that there would be no chance of there being a narrow interpretation of its provisions by judges in the future, particularly in the Court of Session. I am advised that he had particularly in mind one case, that of McCrae v. Reed and Mallik Limited of 1961. The 1958 Act provided for payment of interest from a date not earlier than the commencement of the action if the circumstances warranted such a course, and in the case in question the court interpreted this to mean that the award of interest could be made only if there were special circumstances in the particular case. But there remained a presumption against such interest awards in the ordinary case. My Lords, the present Bill has taken account of this. It has tried to ensure so far as possible that the court will exercise power to award interest on damages from the date on which the right of action arose and that there should not be scope for the restricted interpretation which was put upon the 1958 Act by the case in question. The more positive wording of the new subsection (1A), for instance, omits the word, "if the circumstances warrant such a course", and refers to "the whole or any part of the period" instead of "a date not earlier than". Moreover, the new subsection (1A) raises a clear presumption in favour of paying instance, omits the word, "if the circumdate of action, and the definition of damages to include solatium makes it clear that the new and extended power to award interest from the earlier date does cover this element in the award. Special reasons for not awarding interest would have to be special to the particular case. But I am advised that the court could still hold that interest was inappropriate
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in principle on, for example, future wage loss.
The noble Lord, Lord Wheatley, raised the question of what he called guidelines. He feels that the Bill as drafted leaves too great an element of uncertainty and too much discretion to the courts in determining how the amount of interest to be awarded should be calculated. And I got the impression that the noble Lord would like to see detailed rules written into the Bill. I am advised that the Winn Committee on personal injuries litigation set out certain detailed suggestions for the guidance of judges in the calculation of interest on damages; but that Committee did not propose that these detailed rules should be incorporated in the recommended legislation. In refraining from making such a recommendation, the Committee were, I suspect, persuaded by the same considerations as those which led to the non-inclusion of such detail in the present Bill. These are that the rules set out in the Winn Report are, in some respects, too detailed to take account of the specialties of individual cases, and in other respects appear somewhat arbitrary.
In the case to which the noble Lord referred, Jefford v. Gee, the court, on the basis of statutory provisions similar to the present Bill, laid down guidelines for calculation of interest, but left a discretion in their application. It is to be expected that the Scottish courts will similarly lay down guide-lines for the operation of the present Bill. It is for this reason that we feel the Bill should not attempt to impose rigid rules in the way suggested.
The noble Lord also raised a question about the power of the Court of Session on appeals from the sheriff. On the point raised on Section 2 of the 1958 Act, although the Court of Session appears to be given a very wide discretion, I am advised that this will probably be interpreted as a discretion within the framework of the existing rules about interest in damages, including the provisions of the present Bill.
The last and very technical question which the noble Lord asked me concerned tenders. I am advised that with regard to the position where the defender makes a tender of money in satisfaction of the pursuer's claim, it is considered that it would be impossible to deal in

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detail with the problems raised by tenders. My understanding is that a tender will not in Scotland include an element representing interest on damages, but that when the court pronounces an interlocutor in terms of minutes of tender and acceptance, the pursuers will be entitled to move for interest, since the interlocutor is one decerning for payment of money as damages. Admittedly it may be difficult for the judge to assess the element of damages on which interest should be awarded, since there will normally have been no proof, but he will get some help from the written pleadings. To demand further specification could lead to dispute and expense.
My Lords, I have tried to give the first reactions to the difficult questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wheatley, and I should like to thank him for taking the trouble to ask them. If I may speak on behalf of the Government (I do not know what my noble friend Lord Balerno, who is in charge of this Bill will say) we will certainly see whether there is any way in which this Bill could be improved; but at first sight, on the advice I have been given, and for the reasons I have tried to explain to your Lordships, we feel that the Bill is best left as it is.
LORD BALERNO: My Lords, I should like to take this opportunity of thanking all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I am particularly grateful to my old friend—if I may call him that—Lord Hoy, who spoke on behalf of the Opposition. I said in my opening speech that this Bill had no enemies in another place, and I trust that it finds no enemies in this House. Naturally anything legal is always liable to require some i's dotted and some strokes put on to its t's, and we are indeed grateful to the noble Lord. Lord Wheatley, for putting his magnifying glass upon it and telling us the results. He is anxious that the Bill should be made to work. I cannot express too strongly my gratitude to the noble Baroness, Lady Tweedstmuir of Belhelvie, for taking the ball and hitting it back into the noble Lord's court. She did it extremely skilfully and it saves my having to take up your Lordships' time unduly. I am only too conscious of the fact that I am not an expert in legal matters. No one expects a poor farmer
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to dispute with a Senator of the College of Justice. But I should like to assure the noble Lord that I will consult my friends—in other words, I will do what he does occasionally and take it ad avizandum.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

CARRIAGE OF GOODS BY SEA BILL
3.47 p.m.
LORD WILBERFORCE: My Lords, my noble and learned friend Lord Dip-lock is unfortunately detained elsewhere on judicial business and he has asked me to move on his behalf. I understand that no Amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript Amendment or speak in Committee. Therefore, unless, any noble Lord objects, on behalf of my noble friend, I beg to move, pursuant to Standing Order No. 43(2), That the Order of Commitment be discharged.
Moved, That the Order of Commitment be discharged.—(Lord Wilberforce.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Then, Standing Order No. 42 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of March 30) Bill read 3a, and passed.

UNSOLICITED GOODS AND SERVICES BILL
3.49 p.m.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time. This is a Private Member's Bill which has been through another place. It first saw the light in another place in the last Parliament. It was introduced under the Title of the Inertia Selling Bill, but that rather unattractive, though descriptive, Title was changed when the Bill was again introduced in this Parliament in 1970 by the honourable Member for Beckenham, Mr. Philip Goodhart, and the Title to-day is "Unsolicited Goods and Services Bill".
The Bill deals with two problems. The first is that most tiresome custom of sending to people goods which they have not

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ordered, in the hope that they will buy them and of course pay for them—in fact, the sending of unsolicited goods. If the recipient does not want the goods, he can return them. But that involves expense and trouble; therefore often he does not return them. Then bills are sent in to him, first in ordinary terms and later on with threats of legal proceedings, court actions and all the rest of the disagreeable things which can happen to people and which of course much alarm the ordinary man and woman and cause them quite unnecessary anxiety. Under Clause I of the Bill, if the goods are unsolicited the recipient can send notice to the sender that he neither wants nor will pay for the goods. If the sender does not collect them within 30 days, the goods become the property of the recipient free, gratis and for nothing.
How widespread this tiresome habit of sending unsolicited goods is can be gathered from the fact that all the main consumer protection associations—the Consumers' Association, the Consumer Council, the Advertising Standards Authority, the National Chamber of Trade, the County Councils Association and the Confederation of British Industry, as well as all political Parties in Parliament—have condemned the practice. Eighteen months ago the Consumers' Association reported that 150 members had received goods unordered. When I was Chairman of the Consumer Council I was often asked about letters and communications offering goods on very favourable terms, which were a nuisance and in no case asked for by the public. Although in the past—and I stress the words "in the past"—some mail order firms have been guilty of using these selling methods, it has now been stopped by the Association of Mail Order Publishers who have condemned the practice of inertia selling. That has been a welcome gesture on their part. We shall hear more about it, I hope, from the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, when she comes to address your Lordships.
So Clause I of the Bill puts the whole matter in a nutshell. To recapitulate: if the recipient does not want the goods, all he has to do is to write to the sender saving that they are unsolicited, and require the sender to take them away. If the sender does not do so within 30 days of the sending of that letter, the goods
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then become the property of the recipient. The clause also deals with the position of the recipient who does nothing. In that case the goods become his property if they have not been collected within six months of the date on which he receives them. Clause 2 deals with demands and threats by the sender on the recipient asking for payment. Under this clause it will be an offence to put the recipients name on a defaulters' list for not paying for unsolicited goods, as well as for threatening to do so. The penalty in the Bill is not imprisonment, but a fine of up to £400.
It is accepted that the overwhelming majority of mail order firms condemn this business of unsolicited selling. They provide a service which the public enjoy and use frequently. We have no desire to interfere with this. There is, of course, the problem of the hoax order, a problem which has existed for a long time, but it is in the hands of the mail order firms to be vigilant to stop this practice, and I am sure that that is what they desire to do.
The second important matter with which the Bill deals is the bogus directory entry. There is a practice of sending to people notices inviting them to insert their name in a bogus business directory. This is quite a major racket, and Clause 3 of the Bill deals with it. The Advertising Standards Association reckon that possibly £500,000 a year is taken from business firms by the bogus directory people: the Incorporated Society of Advertisers puts the figure at about £1,500,000. What happens is that a letter is sent by one of the companies to a business, with a proof note of a directory entry—I have one here in my hand. The recipient company is asked to check the entry and return it. Some time after this has been done the business receives a demand for six or eight guineas for the entry, possibly with an offer of discount for prompt payment, the bogus directory people hoping thereby to get the money by return.
The names of several firms were mentioned in another place by the honourable Member for Beckenham, and your Lordships can read them in column 1649 of the House of Commons Hansard of December 4, 1970. Suffice it to say that in these bogus directory entries some 100,000 to 200,000 clients are involved.

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Men are employed full time and offices are established—all this to mislead the public. Seventy-two firms listed in the Incorporated Society of British Advertisers Vigilant Survey produced absolutely nothing. These bogus directory companies try to extort money for publications which do not exist. Some firms have titles which are meant to give the impression that they have something to do with the Post Office "Yellow Pages" book, and some names sound very realistic, but in fact none of them has any reality. This racket must be stopped, and it can all be stopped by Clause 3 of this Bill. Clause 3 sets out clearly the information which must be given by the directory-producing firm before any payment is claimed. If the information is not given, a substantial fine of up to £400 is payable; and if the information given is false, then fraud will have been committed and the company can be sued.
I now come to Clause 4. This clause was inserted into the Bill on the Report stage in another place. It is not easy to interpret the clause in the context of this Bill. I may say that the Bill is not about pornography or any subject which could be included in that category, but there is no doubt that many Members of Parliament and others have suffered much offence by receiving unsolicited pornographic literature. Members of the public have been offended by such advertising material and have written to their Members of Parliament, and no doubt to some of your Lordships, about this disagreeable and offensive practice. Although acknowledging that this matter is really outside the subject matter of the Bill, the Members in another place voted to include Clause 4 in the Bill. In so far as the advertisement of sexual books is done for profit, this method of unsolicited circulation of reading material in this form could be stopped under this Bill, and clearly the Members in another place, by their vote, wanted it stopped.
But in order that genuine publications on sex should be available, for instance, to people seeking information from marriage guidance councils or, in another field altogether, to farmers, in regard to such things as artificial insemination, I shall move an Amendment in Committee
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which will limit any prosecutions under this clause to those which have been approved by the Director of Public Prosecutions. That, I think, should effectively prevent any frivolous prosecutions, while the Bill will deter those who are seeking to exploit indecent literature for their own profit. Clause 5 refers to offences under the Bill committed by a corporation. It lays the blame for such action on the director, manager, secretary or any other person acting for the corporation, and holds them liable for any offence under the Bill. Clause 6 deals with interpretation and is a simple clause.
I ask with confidence for your Lordships' support of this Bill. It fills a gap in our legislation which has for too long been open to abuse. Many Members in another place, or their constituents, have had disagreeable and annoying experiences in being sent totally unsolicited goods, and have incurred trouble in being rid of such goods. It has happened not only to Members of Parliament but to many hundreds of thousands of members of the public. All Parties in the other House supported the Bill, and to-day I confidently ask for the support of your Lordships on all sides of the House for its Second Reading. I beg to move, that this Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.— (Baroness Elliot of Harwood.)
4.1 p.m.
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, who has taken on the responsibility of piloting the Bill through this House, for explaining it so clearly. As she will recall, the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, was about to introduce a similar Bill under the original title to which she has referred, before June, 1970. Therefore we can certainly take it that the Bill has all-Party support. As the noble Baroness has pointed out, this was certainly so in the other place. We are all the recipients of curious items of correspondence. I constantly receive invitations to buy valuable antiques, or to purchase jewellery. It is always pointed out that I am a person of discernment (and presumably of cash) on the assumption, I think, that those who occupy a place in your Lordships' House must, of necessity, be wealthy. We are also inundated with invitations to hear the case of certain

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countries who want to put their particular point of view. To those people who employ public relations firms for this purpose I must say that I consign such invitations at once to the wastepaper basket; so they may as well save the postage which they are paying at this time.
We are also invited to obtain a prize; we are told that we have been selected to have a prize. Again, being the kind of person who was told many years ago that the only things I may get in life I should have to work for, I do not bother to follow this up, either. But there is little doubt that we get one type of unsolicited goods, and I am sorry to say that this comes from charities. I refer to Christmas cards. They are usually painted by somebody and often there is a harrowing story attached to them. I do not support these particular people. I am hoping that this message may get through to these individuals, although it may not be particularly relevant to the Bill.
When we come to unsolicited goods within the definition of the Act which are sent without request having been made by the recipient, or on his or her behalf, then the noble Baroness is referring to cases which were submitted in some number, as she said, to the Consumer Council. This I recall from my own organisation. I am glad that she made the point that the numbers have decreased since the Mail Order Publishing Association took the matter in their own hands and prepared a code of practice. I am happy to commend them on this sensible action. I sought the help and advice of my friends in the Citizens Advice Bureaux, who told me that there was still a trickle of cases of unsolicited goods and there was, with the usual computer-style business that we have now, the procession of demands for payment. Those of your Lordships who have received this type of matter know exactly how to deal with it. But there are elderly people who are concerned and bothered about this problem, and do not know quite how to deal with it. These are probably the people that we have in mind when thinking of legislation of this kind.
In relation to Clause 4 I know of some of the members of my own organisation who have been concerned about these books, called sex instruction books, not
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only because they have been sent to their household (and it is a little difficult to explain to your husband that you have not sought to have these books sent!) but because when they are sent to your teenage children the situation becomes even more complicated. If there is a way of dealing with this problem I hope we can include it in the Bill. As I see it, the recipients of unsolicited goods are already in a very sound position in civil law. I hope that I have not given incorrect instructions to some of my members when I have told them that they do not need to do anything about the goods. So I have some reservations about the period of time referred to in Clause 2(2)(a). I have no doubt that during the passage of the Bill we shall be debating this question more fully. I am preserving an open mind on it until I have heard from those of your Lordships who have been more actively concerned with the other side of the issuing of mail order goods.
The other point I am a little confused about (perhaps the noble Baroness can explain it to me) is that there does not appear to be a duty of enforcement imposed upon anybody. In a Bill of this kind perhaps this is not considered absolutely essential. It may be well said that the cases which gave rise to this legislation are now disappearing. But I do not think that we test the quality of legislation on the number of cases that are brought to court. Surely we test the validity of our legislation on the number of crimes that are not committed. Although we are happy to see the tailing off of this kind of situation, this small Bill will be the means of preventing some other fears being imposed upon those people who are not easily able to deal with the matter. My Lords, I wish this Bill a speedy passage through your Lordships' House.
4.7 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF ROCHESTER: My Lords, I should like briefly to support and give a general welcome to this Bill. I do so with even more trepidation than usual, for who am I to interrupt so formidable and distinguished a trio of noble Baronesses? I believe that the Bill will go a long way towards reducing, or possibly removing, the undoubted sense of grievance felt by many ordinary people at this growing

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practice of sending things which people have not asked for, and which they do not wish to retain. I welcome the Bill because I believe that such practices are an invasion of the privacy of the ordinary citizen and, where they involve children and young people, often subject those who are immature to temptations and influences that can also be sometimes disruptive of a healthy family life.
I should like to support the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, in her important (even if irrelevant) remarks about the well-intentioned but over-zealous promoters of charitable bodies who send not only their well-wishers but also others, unsolicited Christmas greetings cards and Christmas stamps. Some of your Lordships may regard this as a fairly harmless form of blackmail. This it may be for those who have no hesitation in putting such packages straight into their wastepaper-basket. But as the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, has suggested already, there are some conscientious people, and many of them not very well off, who are embarrassed by such treatment and ought not to be subjected to it. I hope that the Bill will remove this aggravation.
The noble Baroness who introduced the Bill referred to Clause 4, which was added in another place, which undoubtedly deals with a matter that has recently caused grave offence to a number of people, including parents and teachers. Those of us who sit on these Benches are among those who have received protests about this matter. It is of interest that all the speakers in another place were clearly of the view that the precise wording of this clause as we have received it in this House could be improved upon. I therefore welcome the assurance we have been given that an Amendment will be moved at the Committee stage in your Lordships' House. Mr. Goodhart, the Member of Parliament for Beckenham, in my diocese, made what I thought were cogent criticisms of this present wording of a clause that was in fact passed by 39 votes to 7 shortly after midnight. My Lords, I am sure that if we can improve the wording of Clause 4, we shall make a good and useful Bill even better.
4.11 p.m.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble
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Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, as I am sure we all are, for bringing this Bill before us to-day. Before I proceed with my remarks on the Bill I want to take her to task for something, because I think the noble Baroness is fair. There is great danger, if I may say this to the House—and I hope to prove it later (I do not know how wise it is to make a statement and then seek to prove it, but she startled me into these remarks and the other two speakers have added to my being startled)—because people can get ideas into their heads, and these are constantly built on and enlarged when the whole basis from which they started is incorrect. This is what I am venturing to submit is happening in this particular case.
The noble Baroness, referring to the sending of unsolicited goods and the demanding of payment for them, said—and I took down her words—that this was a most tiresome habit. My Lords, it is not a most tiresome habit; it does not occur. And before your Lordships seek to shout me down (if noble Lords ever do shout down in your Lordships' House), may I say that I will prove it later? But I am stating it now because, the noble Baroness went on to say—and again I took this down—that many, many hundreds, and indeed thousands, of people have had this experience. My Lords, they have not. I am sorry to differ from her, but they just have not had the experience of unsolicited goods being sent and payment demanded; and I will prove this later.
We then moved on to my noble friend Lady Phillips—and I am afraid they are all to blame for this outburst now, before I get down to my considered remarks. Lady Phillips spoke about invitations, correspondence, "you have gained a prize", et cetera, and I know she would agree with me that these may or may not be tiresome. These are correspondence; they are not unsolicited goods: and we are discussing unsolicited goods. She referred, I think, to the Citizens' Advice Bureaux with a trickle of goods. Well, it must be a trickle because I have had a lot of consultations with the Citizens' Advice Bureaux and I have asked them to let me know of any cases they have, and they have not done so. And, with temerity, I must refer to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop, because the

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Bishop also spoke about "this growing practice"; and I hope that when I sit clown they will all think they were wrong.
With regard to Clause 4, the noble Baroness and I agreed before this debate that we were not well up on pornography. I know nothing about it, and presumably your Lordships do not, either. But what I thought was extraordinary in the Commons' debate was that everybody who spoke about this clause praised the good intentions behind it; said how nice it would be if they could devise a clause to enshrine it in a Bill. But they thought how difficult it would be; and anyway, if they could, it would be quite wrong to put it in this Bill. They then put it in by 39 votes to 7. So whatever the noble Baroness proposes to do on that clause will have my strong support. I thank your Lordships for putting up with me on all this, but I really was startled into it.
This Bill, as we know, is:
"to make provision for the greater protection of persons receiving unsolicited goods, and to amend the law with respect to charges for entries in directories."
To-day I hope to devote most of my remarks to the area of unsolicited goods, and so perhaps I may say straight away that I welcome any amendment of the law which will deal with the abuse in respect to charges for entries in bogus trade directories. Indeed, as I told the noble Baroness the other day prior to this debate, I support this Bill, but I still hope that it will be possible to make some changes in Committee, while appreciating her great anxiety that the Bill shall become law this Session—I quite understand that.
Before dealing with the area of unsolicited goods, I have a personal interest to declare. In October last the Association of Mail Order Publishers set up the Mail Order Publishers' Authority, of which I am Chairman. The Association comprises the leading firms in the field of selling books and gramophone records by post. The duty of the Authority is to enforce a code of practice which has been agreed by members of the Association. Difficult and tiresome though I may be at times, or perhaps because of it, I feel that perhaps it is not necessary for me to present my consumer credentials to this House. I hope, though
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tiresome, that these would be admitted. I say that because if I had not been convinced that the code of practice was both equitable and capable of enforcement, I should not have accepted the position of Chairman of the Authority.
The Inertia Selling Bill which lapsed because of the General Election, and which therefore did not reach your Lordships' House, produced the following comment in Which? in July, 1970:
"The Inertia Selling Bill aimed at providing that anyone who gets unsolicited goods should be able to dispose of them in any way he wants to, provided he gives reasonable notice. We were delighted."
I subscribe to that statement; so does the Authority on behalf of the Association of Mail Order Publishers. So, I am sure, does the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot, herself, who is an Honorary Vice President of the Consumers' Association. I would ask her to note in particular the words:
"provided he gives reasonable notice"—
which is, of course, Clause 1(2)(b) of this present Bill.
My Lords, this House is a reasonable House and a fair one. The noble Baroness would never support a proposition which she believed to be unfair; and I hope the same applies to me. This Bill deals with unsolicited goods and services, and the code of practice to which I have referred specifically states:
"Suppliers shall under no circumstances send merchandise to any addressee without first having received a request for the supply of such merchandise."
My job is to see that this code is adhered to, and I intend to do so. But, in view of that remark, I think it is only fair to my members to say that it is being adhered to without any efforts on my part. In view of what the three previous speakers have said, I do not know if the House is aware that our experience in the Authority is that the sending of unsolicited goods is virtually unknown in the mail order world. It is certainly not carried on by those firms subscribing to this code.
In June, 1969 Which? published a survey on unsolicited goods which had been conducted by some members of the Consumers' Association. At the time I gave considerable attention to this, obviously, as being a consumer problem in which I

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was interested, but not in the more specialised category that I am in to-day. It seemed to me then—and I find my views substantiated since—that this survey, based on allegations which were never investigated, revealed no evidence of cases which involved the deliberate sending of unsolicited goods as a device for obtaining money. To do such a thing would bring great disrepute on a mail order firm, and it would also represent a futile commercial policy. The Consumers' Association drew then, and has drawn since, mistaken conclusions from this limited exercise.
During recent months I have noticed with great interest the commercial trend of Which? and on Sunday, March 7, last, I saw from their advertisement in the magazine Supplement of the Sunday Times that they had entered the mail order field; and again in the Guardian on March 16, and several times since. I am hoping that this venture or development will produce factual assessments and not emotive ones. Which? has a faithful and vocal following to whom the magazine is almost a Bible. This fact makes all the more responsible what is stated by a magazine which renders great service and to which I have subscribed from the beginning.
My Lords, I am saying all this because it was substantiated by the then Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade on March 19, 1969, when she said that her Department had received, in 1966, 1967 and 1968, seven, six and nine complaints respectively about unsolicited postal delivery of books. She did not think this provided sufficient evidence of abuse to justify legislation. I do not know whether with great trepidation. I dare say that I hope the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor will be of the same opinion. But at least there is no harm in trying, and this was the opinion of the Parliamentary Secretary—
VISCOUNT HANWORTH: My Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, may I ask her, first, whether she is referring only to books? If she is not, I cannot think that we have both read the same article in Which? of June, 1970.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I have the article here and I will pass it along to the noble Viscount if he wants it.
VISCOUNT HANWORTH: My Lords, I have it here.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, we both have it, so there is no necessity for me to pass it along. I have left the subject of Which?, but I will come back to it later if the noble Lord would like me to. I was referring to the statement from the Board of Trade. The Board of Trade made this statement, and I said that it referred to the unsolicited postal delivery of books. I am sorry if I did not speak loudly enough, but I was going on to say that the then Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade will be well known to my noble friend on the Front Bench.
Hoping that I am not tempting providence, I should like to inform the House that we have no complaints concerning unsolicited goods in the office of the Authority. I hope that it is not an invitation to many after this debate, but at the moment we have none. Not to rely on ourselves alone, we have made detailed inquiries of the Mirror Group, the News of the World and the Daily Express," Action Line "—and for the information of the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, I may say that these were for any form of unsolicited goods whatsoever. The Mirror Group, after searching their records, found one complaint concerning gramophone records. The News of the World found none, but said that hoaxes came to light. The Daily Express was still looking and commented that this obviously could not be a major scandal. I am most grateful to the newspapers concerned, both for their trouble and for permission to quote them. I submit to the House that their evidence, plus that of the Authority, plus that of the Board of Trade, must be regarded as conclusive. The sending of unsolicited goods is not a problem in this country. It was not in 1969, and it is not to-day.
My Lords, of course confusions in the general sense can arise. Obviously it is possible for goods to be despatched when in fact a cancellation order has been sent by the customer. I do not propose to weary the House with a step-by-step survey of the mail order business, but mechanical and electronic procedures, plus the normal vagaries of the postal service, may result in goods being despatched after the customer has written.

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I would only say that such confusion is not confined to the mail order industry.
The noble Baroness referred to hoaxes. There is no known method of detecting any but the most obvious hoax orders. Perhaps your Lordships, as individuals, would just consider this for a moment. How do you detect any but the most obvious? The coupon appears to be filled in correctly, and the merchandise is supplied in good faith; obviously and eventually the recipient receives the bill—any business would send the bill following despatch of goods. The recipient is not to blame; but neither, equally, is the firm. I submit to the House that complaints about bills for goods innocently supplied are irrelevant, since bills are bound to follow automatically unless the recipient informs the firm that something is wrong.
I have had wrong merchandise from department stores before now, and I have certainly had wrong bills. I should think everyone in this House must have had a similar experience. No doubt we have all dealt with the situation in the same way. We informed the sender, probably more than once when the same bill kept arriving, and eventually the matter was put right. I can go back two or three years, when there seemed to be a positive jinx on my orders and I experienced, from three West End stores of considerable repute to which I subscribe, two cases of wrong bills and one of wrong merchandise. As I am sure your Lordships would endorse, the fact that I had paid the bills and had the receipts made not the slightest difference: the bills kept arriving. It was extremely annoying and frustrating, but, my Lords, it was obviously incompetence; it was not a sin.
If we take gas, or electricity, or the telephone services, the onus of showing that there has been an overcharge or a wrong charge falls on the householder. If the bill is correct, we nay it; if we think there has been a mistake we inform the supplier. I am sorry to labour this point, but it seems to be necessary. Unless we do inform the supplier, he cannot know that there has been a mistake. It is a nuisance to have to do this, but it has fallen to my lot several times, and I am sure it must have fallen to the lot of many of your Lordships. But really and truly
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it is not looked upon as an imposition upon a harassed recipient, and it can hardly be described as an attack upon our liberty.
I think that this Bill has serious defects which must be looked at in Committee. I know that this is not the occasion for a Committee speech, so, speaking generally, I would suggest to the House that in the framing of this Bill insufficient attention has been paid to the true situation. I think that facts have been submerged by emotion. When I prepared these notes I did not know that we were to have the highest legal authority in the land to reply to this debate, and I hope he will not mind my layman's efforts, because I am going to leave in my speech what I would have said otherwise.
My Lords, if I had been asked to consider whether or not legislation was desirable in regard to unsolicited goods, I think I would have tried to satisfy myself on four criteria. One, has the essential evil accurately been identified? In this case the knowing and unscrupulous despatch of goods that have not been ordered, followed by demands for payment. Second, was the problem numerically significant? Third, did the problem present a serious abuse? Fourth, would such a Bill, on becoming law, open the door to abuses more serious than those it would be able to cure? I will come back later to No. 4. The answers to Nos. 1, 2 and 3 are in the negative.
I hope I have convinced the House that inertia selling, in the strict sense, is very little practised in the United Kingdom. What is worth pointing out, however, is that one of the very few cases that could accurately be described as inertia selling in the American sense is the supply of office stationery. There must be some very few people concerned with consumer affairs who have not also heard of the carbon paper racket. Perhaps I should just add here that knowledge that the goods were unsolicited by the recipient is an essential element in inertia selling as defined and practised in the United States of America.
However, to return to my office stationery and carbon paper rackets, I should like to stress to the House that it seems to me that these would be excluded from the scope of this Bill by the words in Clause 1(2), which read:
"… that the recipient has no reasonable cause to believe that they were sent with

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a view to their being acquired for the purposes of a trade or business…."
Clearly, office stationery is intended to be acquired for the purposes of a trade or business. Perhaps the noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor will be able to look at that point again.
I will now return to the main problem that I put before your Lordships. It was made evident by the three speakers who spoke first that inertia selling is an emotive issue. Some people would transfer this emotiveness to the mail order business. I hope they will not succeed. It would be most unfair. Truly, there is very little inertia selling in this country. In the Second Reading debate in another place on December 4 last, the Minister, referring to complaints against the sale of goods or gramophone records by mail order, said:
"I have never thought it likely that deliberate inertia selling techniques were being used although, as the honourable Member for Rugby hinted, there will be the odd occasion where a fraud or a hoaxer engages in those techniques. Investigation of the main body of complaints last year convinced officials, who talked freely to many of the firms concerned and inspected their operations, that there was no deliberate attempt to engage in inertia selling."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 4/12/70, col. 1681.]
The Minister went on to say that he thought the trouble had arisen from a combination of three factors: namely, hoax orders, confusion over reply cards, and an unexpectedly large increase in orders.
The noble Baroness mentioned the Advertising Standards Authority. I believe the Advertising Standards Authority—of which I think the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, was Chairman at the time—reached the same conclusion. I am submitting that in view of these findings by the Department it is obvious that these errors, tiresome though they may be, are due to human error rather than deliberate action. So far as I am concerned, and my Association is concerned, we hope to minimise these errors. Human error can never be eliminated, not even in the field of perfection required by manned space flight. The Minister then stated that complaints to the Department had virtually ceased and paid tribute to the mail order publishing firms for the efforts they had made.
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I have regarded my task to-day as being completely objective and factual, apart from my opening remarks to which I was provoked. I hope I have convinced the House that inertia selling in the strict sense is very little practised in this country. I hope I have convinced the House, citing in addition the findings and conclusions of two Ministers in another place, that human error rather than deliberate action caused such complaints as were made. I hope very much, personally, I have convinced the House that when a customer receives a wrong account or wrong merchandise he or she normally writes to say so. If this is accepted, and in equity it must be, because it is a statement of fact, then I ask your Lordships to agree, in the context of this Bill, that anyone receiving wrong accounts or wrong merchandise—merchandise they have not ordered—shall, similarly, be asked to write and say so. Otherwise, how is the innocent supplier—any more than the innocent retail firm—to be made aware of the error? Indeed, as Which? stated, the recipient of unsolicited goods should be able to dispose of them in any way he wants to, provided he gives reasonable notice. That is why I hope there will be agreement that Clause 1(2)(a) shall be deleted. As it stands, it opens the door to widespread fraud, and if the noble Baroness or the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, in view of what I have said, could have a look at this suggestion, it would be much appreciated, and benefit both the Bill anti the customer. Also it would be fair.
Quite honestly, I do not think it is putting a grievous burden on anyone to ask him to send a note when unordered goods have been delivered in error—as does Clause 1(2)(b), which I should be glad to support and which the noble Baroness mentioned at the beginning; although she did not say Clause 1(2)(b), she did speak about giving reasonable notice. Then, if the goods are not collected within the period named the matter is closed and the goods become the property of the recipient. That seems to me just. But you cannot permit people to keep goods which were sent in error and to which they have no right. I repeat, to do so would be to open wide the doors to fraud, at which I hinted

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earlier in my fourth criteria point, and on which, obviously, I would prefer not to elaborate.
To conclude, I should like to draw attention to some general trends on Report and Third Reading in another place. I realise, of course, that these can only be general, but I think they are too important to pass unnoticed. I hope that emotive phrases, to the effect that the purveyors of unsolicited goods will no longer feel that the advantages merit the risks attached, will be ignored, or rejected in this House; also a further statement that this has become an increasing nuisance over a large number of years. I can only repeat that to send unsolicited goods would put firms out of business, while the second statement is just not true. One form of reasoning was beyond me altogether. Apparently losses suffered by mail order firms through hoax orders, and aggravated by this Bill, must be accepted because supermarket and retail shop organisations have losses through theft. That strikes me as the most peculiar argument for Clause 1(2)(a) that I have yet come across.
The Minister stated at column 1927:
"In trying to discourage the sender of unsolicited goods, we may well be making things more difficult for the genuine mail order firm, and we want to make sure that does not happen. Hoaxing must not be exaggerated, but it is nevertheless a real problem. There are practical jokes hoax orders, and there are fraudulent hoax orders where someone orders goods for himself, using another address, or pretends that he has not made the order. Anything that encouraged that practice would be unfair on the mail order houses, and I do not believe that anything in the Bill encourages it."
With respect to the Minister, Clause 1(2)(a) does encourage hoax orders. I hope that the proof I have offered to-day will persuade the noble Baroness and this House, the noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, the Minister and another place to delete that subsection. That done, I wish the Bill speedy progress and success.
4.38 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, will forgive me if I do not follow her, because I have neither the knowledge nor the facts either to refute her arguments or to support them. In general, may I say that I think I support
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this Bill. In fact, I support it all except Clause 4, and it is that clause I wish to speak about. I think it is a disastrous clause. My noble friend of course is in the great difficulty that if we were to do away with this clause and send the Bill back to the other place without it, she might lose the Bill. That, I believe, is her view. That would be a pity, because I think this Bill needs passing. But even the honourable Member in the other place who moved the insertion of the clause said that it was not at all what he would like; that it was not a satisfactory clause. He went on to hint that the best thing to do was to pass it and send it up to your Lordships, who undoubtedly would put the matter right.
I do not believe that it can be put right. My noble friend says that she will move an Amendment in Committee, which I shall be very interested to see, making it clear that there can be no frivolous prosecutions because no prosecution will be able to be brought without the permission of the Director of Public Prosecutions. I wonder whether that is good enough. It is an odd clause anyhow; as my noble friend said, it ought not to be in the Bill at all. The wording is so odd to start with. You must not send unsolicited—I am paraphrasing—any publication which describes or illustrates sexual techniques. I know what people want to stop, and I agree with them. But what on earth does it mean? What are, exactly, "sexual techniques"?
What is worrying me particularly is the position of perfectly reputable firms who make birth control goods—what in my young day were normally referred to as "rubber goods" but I think that phrase is not much used nowadays. It is a long time ago now, more than forty years, when my son was born. I then received from one of these most reputable firms of manufacturers a letter which said:
"We congratulate you on the birth of your son. Was it by design or accident? If by design, we apologise for writing. If by accident, we will send you our catalogue if you would like it."
And they explained what the catalogue was about. For all they knew, it might have been my fifteenth child. I might have been completely ignorant of anything, and in those circumstances their catalogue would have been very welcome.

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Is there anything frightful in writing a letter of that kind? I imagine that they were really talking about sexual techniques; I suppose that it could come under that heading. Are they to be prosecuted and fined because they are carrying on their business in a perfectly respectable way? Really, this is an extraordinary clause. Even with the proviso that a prosecution can be brought only on instructions from the Director of Public Prosecutions, and therefore no frivolous prosecutions will be brought, the law will still apparently say that if anything comes, frivolous or otherwise, describing sexual techniques—not pornography, or anything of that kind—then a prosecution can be brought. We ought to be careful about passing this clause unless it is properly amended. For that reason, I hope we shall hear a good deal about it from my noble and learned friend who sits on the Woolsack, because at the moment I think the clause means nothing; but if it does mean anything it is extremely dangerous for perfectly reputable traders.
4.43 p.m.
LORD JACQUES: My Lords, as one who has spent a lifetime in the consumer Co-operative Movement, I welcome any legislation designed to protect the consumer. Therefore I welcome this Bill, but, like my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry, I have some doubts whether it is necessary. I would ask for one point to be considered between now and the Committee stage. So far as unsolicited goods are concerned, the core of the Bill is Clause 1(2)(a) and (b). Paragraph (b) says that the recipient can give 30 days' notice, and if, within this 30 days, the goods are not collected, then he can assume that the goods belong to him. If it involves giving notice I see no harm in that at all, but, as my noble friend Lady Burton pointed out, paragraph (a) is a different matter. The recipient has merely to sit upon the goods for six months and then assume that they belong to him.
I suggest that this provision requires further consideration, if you are going to give adequate protection to the innocent trader. I will give two examples. It is possible that a retailer could deliver goods to a customer in error. For example, instead of the goods being delivered to No. 87, they may be delivered to No. 78. The customer who
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should have received the goods may, like many ladies, reserve the right to change her mind—that often happens in some spheres of department store trading after customers have made a purchase. She finds that she does not get delivery and she does nothing about it; consequently the poor trader does not know that the mistake has been made. At one time the common period for credit outside of hire purchase was six months, but in the last decade it has been changed and it is now nine months. I suggest that it is dangerous to allow the recipient to sit upon the goods for six months and to assume ownership of them at the end of that period. There could be an error by an innocent retailer who did not have the opportunity of finding out that error until the six months had elapsed.
There is also the question of fraudulent practices. It is possible for two persons to arrange that one of them represents himself to be the other and persuades a retailer to deliver goods to the other on the basis of nine months' credit. The goods are duly delivered and kept. The recipient would argue that they were delivered to him unsolicited with a view to his keeping them. The trader would prove that they had been ordered by somebody, but he would not be able to prove dishonesty because of the difficulty of identification. I suggest, therefore, that this clause has dangers for innocent traders, and at the very least the period of six months ought to be extended, especially in view of the fact that the period of credit is now nine months. I would plead that between now and the Committee stage the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, would consider making this 12 months, so as to protect the innocent trader who may have delivered in error, or upon whom there may have been a fraud. By extending the period we can give him some protection.
4.47 p.m.
LORD PLATT: My Lords, although I agree with the intentions behind this Bill, I share with the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, a certain amount of doubt as to its necessity. Though it is somewhat boring to decribe personal experiences I should like to describe the only two occasions when I have certainly received unsolicited goods not by accident, because they have a bearing on

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some of the clauses in the Bill. Both instances were before the war, and probably in the 1930s. It may be, of course, that the practice has completely died out since then.
We in the medical profession are vulnerable to this kind of thing, and we receive every day enormous numbers of advertisements for drugs and medical appliances of various kinds; but those are not unsolicited goods under the meaning of this Bill. At one time I received a rather beautiful tongue depresser, an instrument to depress the tongue in order to look at the throat. It incorporated a very nice electric light. I began to use this and I found it useful. In due course I received a series of letters and bills, to none of which I paid the slightest attention until the senders finally asked me to return the goods. I then wrote to them, saying that I could not do so because they were in daily use, and I heard no more.
The other occasion was when I received a nice parcel of linen handkerchiefs from Northern Ireland. I mention this particularly because the last words in this Bill are that it does not extend to Northern Ireland. I did the same in this case, and after many letters and applications for payment the senders finally asked me to return the goods. Again I said I could not do so because they were in use, and they were very nice. I did not pay anything on either occasion.
I did not rise simply to bore the House with my personal experiences, but I wonder, if this Bill is to go forward at all, whether much would be lost if it stopped at the end of Clause 1(1). Omitting the first words,
"In the circumstances specified in the following subsection "—
the Bill could then read,
"A person who receives unsolicited goods may dispose of them as if they were an unconditional gift to him, and any right of the sender shall be extinguished."
What is wrong with ending the Bill with those words? Perhaps a small amendment could be put in covering cases which the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, has mentioned, where there may be a genuine mistake and the unsolicited goods were really meant for somebody else.
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When we read on the words almost spoil the effect of this clause. Subsection (2) of Clause 1 states—and this I do not understand and I should like clarification—
"… that the recipient has no reasonable cause to believe that they were sent with a view to their being acquired for the purposes of a trade or business…."
I do not know whether the profession of medicine is a trade or business, but I should have thought that in this case it comes under that heading. That is why I mentioned the first instance, which was clearly one of something being sent to a professional man for use in his profession. I do not see why that should be made an exception in any way. Then we come to paragraphs (a) and (b), which deal with storing the goods. There is nothing to prevent people from sending a television set or something like that, and the storage might be a considerable problem. Then there is the matter of writing to the firm, presumably at your own expense, which seems to me quite unnecessary. So I ask those responsible for this Bill to consider whether these other clauses are really necessary at all, and whether, practically speaking, Clause 1(1) is all we need.
Clause 2 deals with penalties, and I shall need some clarification as to how the transgressor is discovered and whether the recipient has to take legal proceedings—I presume not. I suppose that this would be a matter for the public prosecutor, if he were informed about the offence. I must, as President of the Family Planning Association, refer to Clause 4 because unquestionably the practice of contraception is a sexual technique. This clause seems to me—as others have said in different words—to prevent the legitimate sending of advice about contraception, which under certain circumstances might be quite legitimately sent. That is all I have to say, but I should like to have answers to the questions which I have raised.
4.53 p.m.
VISCOUNT HANWORTH: My Lords, at the outset I think I should declare some sort of interest, though it is only a small one, in so far as I am now a part-time technical adviser to the Consumers' Association. But I knew about this problem long before, while I was working with the Consumer Council. Let me

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begin by saying that it is true that inertia selling may not be very prevalent at the present time, since as soon as the idea of a Bill to stop it was mooted it went into a severe decline. It is also true that the Consumer Council themselves did a very great deal in taking up one or two flagrant cases and in getting co-operation from some of the firms concerned, who changed their salesmen and techniques when they realised that they were making life a little too hot for themselves.
With all due respect to the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, may I say that I found her speech quite extraordinary because, even assuming that this practice has declined, she used some extraordinary arguments to bolster up her case. First of all, she said that this subject is emotive. Why does she think it is emotive? It may be emotive, but this seems to me to be merely using various adjectives and techniques to try to squash the Bill, without any argument at all. She then said, or implied, that the Which? survey was a bad one. Why did she say that? It was an honestly made survey. The Consumer Council made many surveys, and this practice did exist. Does the noble Baroness really mean to imply that practically all of the cases were simply mistakes, with firms sending out goods and customers getting cross? That is simply not in line with the facts known by those who have had anything at all to do with this subject.
Then she sought to prove a negative. When you have accused somebody of failing to prove a positive and you then say, "I am setting out—and it is perfectly all right—to show you that it does not exist" it is an extraordinary thing to do. One of the most difficult things in the world to do is to prove a negative. You can always find cases to prove a positive, but to say that something does not exist because you have consulted one or two people or organisations seems to me quite extraordinary. Another remark which I feel shows some lack of knowledge of what goes on is that inertia selling is not effective. But it has been employed in lots of other countries with enormous success and flourished. I cannot see that that can be taken as an argument against the Bill. However, the question is whether there
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is now sufficiently serious abuse to justify the Bill, and my own feeling is that this is an opportunity. We have got the Bill so far, and if it does not go through almost certainly the frequency of inertia selling will increase again.
The Board of Trade dealt with nine cases in 1969. But, bearing in mind the sort of people to whom this inertia selling is applied, it is quite extraordinary that they had as many cases as that because the average person simply does not know how to write to the Board of Trade. They may occasionally take up something with their M.P., but I should have said that this was the tip of an enormous iceberg under the sea. Again, if we refer to the Which? article, it is rather hard to believe that somebody who could write like this is quite free from any blame at all and merely sent goods to the wrong person. The quotation is as follows:
"… authorise the next of our Collection Department procedures which I know are not pleasant. They are, however, effective and in the end you will pay".
That is part of a letter from the offices of Heron Books. That was a very common occurrence and one could go on quoting instances of that sort. To say that it was only a mistake seems to me indefensible.
There is the question of how much the recipients of these unwanted goods are inconvenienced. In the first place, one has to remember that houses are very small and that many people have large families. Whether the goods are bulky or not you have to protect them so that they are not damaged. You may have to go on doing that indefinitely unless you are prepared to pack them up and pay the postage to send them back. Even under the present Bill you still have to look after them for six months unless you give notice to the sender in writing. If after a month nothing has happened the goods belong to you. But many people who are exploited in this way do not understand how to write the correct sort of letter. In any case, they have to pay the postage. Therefore, I think that there is a difficulty for people who have this inertia selling practised on them, particularly when it is followed up by further correspondence.
I really cannot understand why the trade should be worried and should want a period of more than six months to

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elapse before they lose the goods. If they cannot be a little more careful with their goods, then I suggest that they should recover them in a month. I find the suggestion of nine months quite impossible. I cannot understand how the owners of any efficiently run business could possibly be worried. Hoaxing, of course, is another matter; but, my Lords, in the end the way in which a business is run is changed according to the circumstances. Many present practices would have been considered quite wrong a number of years ago, and firms change their method of business quite easily. My suggestion to them is that they change them, and that they hunt up their goods and accept the occasional loss of items through the carelessness of wrong delivery.
5.0 p.m.
LORD DONALDSON OF KINGS-BRIDGE: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Hanworth has said very forcibly most of the things that I wanted to say, and I shall not repeat them. But I should like to refer to the development of this Bill. It started in my mind about 18 months ago, when I suggested to my Director of the Consumer Council that we should have a Bill exactly like the Bill which the noble Lord, Lord Platt, suggested. She said, "This really is too simple; there are difficulties about hoax; there are difficulties about mistake. I do not think you can do that." She also said, "I wonder whether it is worth doing at all, because the real problem is not unsolicited goods, but inertia selling. "At the same time, the Consumers' Association were preparing a draft to deal with unsolicited goods, and we got together and tacked on some clauses which attempted to deal with inertia selling. Your Lordships undoubtedly know the difference, but in case you do not I will illustrate it.
Unsolicited goods comprise the parcel which arrives and for which you have not asked. Something sold you by inertia selling is something which is, as it were, extrapolated (as the economists call it) from a previous order. For instance, if you sign a coupon in a newspaper saying that you would like the free gift of a certain kind of book, or a certain kind of gramophone record, the suppliers send it to you and say, "With this free gift
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we shall send you a book a month at 7s. 6d. a time unless you tell us not to." This is inertia selling, and there are many varieties of it. This is the real evil at the moment, and it is extremely difficult to deal with. The Board of Trade, who have blessed this Bill in relation to the extension of it, were so hostile to the feasibility of enforcing if that my honourable friend Mr. Arthur Davidson, 18 months ago, in January, 1970, dropped it out of his Bill, and Mr. Goodhart has not put it into his. But this is the history of the matter. This is really an attempt by consumer organisations who, supported by Member of Parliament after Member of Parliament, can quote case after case of fraudulent pressure put on people to buy things and of offensive letters then being sent to them to make them pay for things they never ordered.
My noble friend Lady Burton in a white sheet I find irresistible. I am used to her as an attacker, but as a defender she is very powerful, so I am not going to quarrel with her (that is more than my life would be worth) and pretend that I think the unsolicited goods practice is very common. I have never been sent any unsolicited goods in that form, although I have frequently been sent things which, with less skilled operators, would work into inertia selling. I always take the first sample and refuse anything else, and I have in my library several books which were meant to lead on to further purchases but which in my case did not; but, of course, some people have not the wisdom that we have. I am not going to attack the noble Baroness for her defence; I think it was a little wider than it need have been, but this is legitimate in defending counsel. It is interesting to note that since this agitation started, in January, 1970, practices, as my noble friend Lord Hanworth said, have very much improved. Certainly both the Consumers' Association and the Consumer Council were in touch with firms whose practices we very much objected to and who appear on the list of members of Lady Burton's group. But I am sure that those practices have ceased, so that we shall have not done nothing, even if we stop here.
My Lords, when we come to a consideration of the Bill, I cannot resist pointing out how relevant was the Unstarred Question of my noble and learned

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friend Lord Gardiner the other day, because Clause 1 here concerns the Board of Trade; Clause 2 concerns magistrates in their courts, which is the Lord Chancellor's Department; Clause 3 concerns prosecution for a criminal offence, which is the responsibility of the police and the Home Office; and Clause 4 concerns sex, which, within reason, is a matter for the Ministry of Health and, without reason, is a matter for the Home Office. So that, one way or another, we have them all included in this Bill.
The Bill has diminished, as I say, by the taking out of the inertia selling parts, and it has grown in a rather ugly bump by the addition of Clause 4, about which I shall say nothing. Nobody has ever sent me one of these testimonials which I must say I rather resent; but I do not think it is for me to criticise the Bill here. It is desirable to stop the unsolicited spread of pornography, and I think it is likely that the noble Baroness's attempt to get round her problem by referring it to the Director of Public Prosecutions may be satisfactory.
The issue, and the only important issue, my Lords, is Clause 1(2)(a). Is it necessary that a firm which is trying to make money by sending out samples in one form or another should be in a position to put any private individual under any liability whatever? This is the problem. I think it is agreed that by Common Law they are able to put a private individual under the liability of not damaging or keeping safe something which he receives, and at the moment there is no limit to the time he is supposed to do that. Thus this Bill, by imposing a limit of six months, takes nothing away from the sender, and slightly limits the receiver's liability. I personally feel that Clause 1(2)(b), as Lord Jacques says, is perfectly satisfactory. To me, Clause 1(2)(a) is about right. I agree with Lord Hanworth that six months is a ridiculous time. Originally we had it in the Bill as one month, but we were gradually broken down by the pathetic squeals of these computerised organisations which cannot get a bill out for certain under six months. Very well—this is the world we live in, and I accept six months. But the idea that this limit should be removed altogether, and that a liability should be placed on people to reply when they are
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sent things they do not want, is not acceptable to me.
So, my Lords, I think we must support the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot, with this Bill. We must close our ears to the moving and dramatic appeals of my noble friend Lady Burton, and to the less dramatic but no less cogent appeals of my noble friend Lord Jacques. We must remember that there are not only innocent traders; there are also innocent customers—and in my opinion they are a good deal more innocent than the traders at the fringe. It is impossible to tell: there are, of course, crooks who will take advantage of this sort of thing, but there are crooked traders, too, and my view is that the one does more harm than the other. We shall all be intrigued to know what the noble and learned Lord will make of this extremely complicated legal problem, and I await his verdict with fascination.
5.9 p.m.
LORD REDESDALE: My Lords, I must first declare an interest in that I am connected with a mail order company. I should like to go on to say that I shall be brief, because, coming in as tenth man, at the end of batting, I am sure that everybody has heard so many good speeches that there is little else to be said. Therefore, I shall confine myself really to one part of the Bill. However, listening to Lord Derwent, I, as the father of seven, wondered what would happen by the time I had had seven letters. The senders would probably have given up by that time.
First, one must obviously congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, on bringing this Bill before the House. I should like to take up one or two points with the noble Baroness—not in the pitiful way that Lord Donaldson inferred, but I shall try to put over a logical and reasoned argument. Let me start by putting the problem into perspective. The noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, and the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, were both talking about inertia selling. I shall not follow them in that matter because this Bill is concerned with unsolicited goods.
As the noble Baroness has said, there are very few complaints on this subject at the moment. "Action Line", in the

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Daily Express, and other complaints columns, are always flooded with complaints when something is seriously wrong; so if there is little of that at the moment one can say the situation is fairly dead. I am not denying what has happened in the past in fields other than that of bookselling. It is interesting that the noble Lord, Lord Platt, should mention two genuine cases of unsolicited goods. Of course, doctors have been subjected much more to this sort of thing than have other sectors of the public or the professions; but those were genuinely unsolicited goods.
When one is talking about unsolicited goods one must realise that it is obviously uneconomic for most companies to send out any goods which are of real value because experience tells them they may not get them back; they simply cannot afford to do so. However, the problem so far as reputable mail order companies is concerned lies in the provisions of Section 1(2)(a) which does not cover the question of hoaxes. I am afraid that there are a large number of these hoaxes. At a time of a General Election or some similar period of activity, large numbers of people write into mail order firms and fill in order forms with names like "H. Wilson" and so on, with an address. The noble Baroness said that it is up to the mail order companies to be sufficiently vigilant to spot these hoaxes: but in fact it is very difficult to discover whether an order form properly filled out is a hoax. So the goods are sent off in good faith. Obviously, this is extremely irritating to the persons who receive these hoax orders, but we should bear in mind that it is also very expensive for the company which sends them. Admittedly, they are in business to make money and this is a risk that they must take; but this matter of hoax orders must be examined very carefully, because the Bill gives no protection to the companies at all.
The Bill does not cover the more serious angle, the fraudulent order. Two people get together. One may say to the other, "I will fill in this order form with your name and your address. You will get the goods although you didn't really order them. After six months, you can keep them." Clause 1(2)(a) provides no protection on this matter.
LORD DONALDSON OF KINGSBRIDGE: My Lords, surely there is the protection that you send a bill three times, and after the third time you pay a visit? This is ordinary commercial practice.
LORD REDESDALE: My Lords, the period is one of only six months. The goods will have been sent out on an order which has been signed, and this order will have been accepted in good faith by a reputable company. I agree that the period is one of six months, but these days people wait a long time before they pay. This is one of the facts of life. I feel that there is no great onus on somebody receiving goods not genuinely ordered to write to the company—a reputable company would refund the postage—and say that they have not been ordered. Pre-paid cards could be supplied and also labels for the return of the goods.
My Lords, I am trying to be as logical and reasonable as possible, and I do not think that this is imposing an unreasonable burden on the persons who receive the goods. The serious aspect of the matter is that we know that fraud has increased. The more you talk about it, the more frauds are likely to be committed. The problem is similar to vandalism. The more publicity given to British Rail having had their trains vandalised, the more it occurs. Therefore, the more you talk about fraud, the more cases of fraud there will be. But we must recognise that there is an area for fraud, and that there is no protection at the moment within the Bill on this subject. I hope not to appear to be over-dramatising the situation, but I believe that this Bill could be a charter for fraud. It legalises a situation where two people can work together to take a company's goods. Therefore, I hope that when the Bill is debated in Committee, these matters may be examined very carefully and given full consideration.
5.16 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD HAILSHAM OF ST. MARYLEBONE): My Lords, let me first assure the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, that, departmentally speaking, the Lord Chancellor's Department has no truck with this Bill or with any part of it. It is a Department of Trade and Industry-sponsored

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subject, and I am here largely because it was thought that I could help the House. I shall try to do so. Secondly, the status of this Bill is that of a Private Member's Bill. Your Lordships may suspect that a number of the Private Members' Bills which have come before this House in recent weeks have been Law Commission Bills; and it may be suspected that I have rather encouraged private Members to take them up—and if you harboured that suspicion your Lordships would not be wholly wrong.
But this Bill is genuine private enterprise—that is to say, the Government have not initiated it covertly. It was voted on in the House of Commons by a free vote and it will be voted on in this House by an entirely free vote. If this House likes to pass it, then the Government will do their best at all stages to enforce it, to treat it kindly and even to give advice about the wording of Amendments. But it is not a Government Bill and therefore an attitude of benvolent neutrality is that which I have been briefed to adopt. I shall try to be both benevolent and neutral.
My Lords, when you are considering legislation I think it is worth while asking some, at any rate, of the questions asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry. The first is: what is the extent, if any, of the mischiefs aimed at? Secondly, if the remedy proposed a reasonable one? Thirdly, is the whole exercise worth while? There is one other fact of life that I ought to mention, as delicately as I can; that is, that if this Bill does not get through the other place by May 7 (I believe that that is the date) I think that it will die this Session. This means that if your Lordships were to insert a great number of very controversial Amendments, it would probably kill the Bill—and I have an idea that the noble Baroness, Lady Burton, might not mind that. But at any rate those who want to keep the Bill should try to keep Amendments reasonably uncontroversial to avoid long debates in the other place.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, may I say that I have no desire to kill the Bill; merely to kill Clause 1(2)(a).
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, that would be a modest result for a splendid speech which managed to
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convey, at any rate to my mind, a slightly less enthusiastic impression.
My Lords, the Bill purports to deal with three quite separate mischiefs: the unsolicited goods mischief, the bogus directory mischief and the sexual technique mischief—if I may be forgiven by my noble friend Lord Derwent for employing the term about Clause 4. Are these real mischiefs? I think everyone is agreed, and my noble friend Lady Elliot—whom I should like to congratulate on her speech in introducing the Bill—quite clearly established a prima facie case, that the bogus directory mischief is really quite substantial; and, prima facie, there is a case for dealing with it. I listened all through the debate and no one seems to have challenged that. We have all come across it—or most of us have—and those of us who practise in the criminal courts have come across it quite often. The point is not that it is an objectionable practice to ask traders to put their names in a directory; the real point is that there never is going to be a directory at all.
Up to a point the practice can, of course, be dealt with by the existing law. There is no doubt that the people concerned can be prosecuted for fraud; and as there are nearly always more than one involved, you very often prosecute them for conspiracy to defraud; and that is the end of the matter—if you can catch them. But it is a typical criminal activity and, as my noble friend Lady Elliot said, it exists on a substantial scale. She gave figures that I have no means of confirming or challenging; but I think that everyone who practises in the criminal courts has at some time or other come across the bogus directory fraud. I think that, marginally at any rate, this Bill would make it easier to deal with the problem, because it ensures that the person is committing a summary offence at the time he sends out the circular, demanding money, if it does not contain certain particulars which may be checked. As I say, the fraud can be prosecuted anyhow, under the general law, because it is criminal: there is not a directory, and there is never going to be one, and therefore the thing is an ordinary fraud. But, marginally, I think that probably the provisions of the Bill deal with that.

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Now there comes the more complex question of Clause 1, about which again I want to be benevolently neutral. Undoubtedly there is some evidence of some undesirable sales practices in this field. I personally, over a rather long life, have had one or two experiences. The Board of Trade have had more complaints than would be gathered from what was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Burton, covering goods of all kinds, but not a very great number. One does not want to overstate this case: the extent of this mischief is not very great. I think the Board had 60 complaints in 1969, and apparently nearly all of them related to books or gramophone records. I should like to warn the noble Lord, Lord Platt, that he acted a little incautiously in the two cases of his own which he described. I have every sympathy with him; I think it a most objectionable sales practice. But I would venture to say a word about the law on this subject without the complete confidence that I am right.
I do not wholly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, that you can impose any liability on a person who receives these goods. The question depends, I think, speaking solely of English law, on whether you can create bailment by doing so. If you look up the law on bailment you will see that bailment is essentially a contract. In some cases it is an unusual type of contract in English law, because in the case of gratuitous bailment the consideration does not flow from the recipient. There is no consideration flowing from the recipient; therefore it is an unusual type of contract. It all flows from a very famous decision of Lord Holt, at the very beginning of the 18th century, called Coggs v. Bernard; but I think it must be the case that you cannot impose bailment on anybody without his consenting to it. In other words, it remains from start to finish a consensual arrangement.
If, for instance, to use an absurd example, you drop a packet of goods on my garden by parachute, I am under no obligation that I can see to take care of them in any kind of way at all. I can leave the rain to come down on them and rust them or rot them, and I do not think that anybody can complain of my
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conduct in leaving them severely alone. But, of course, in the actual circumstances of sending them by post into a little house, the temptation to use them is almost irresistible; and I am bound to say to the noble Lord, Lord Platt, that if in fact you put them down a patient's throat, that might be construed, if not as an acceptance of the bailment, at least as a conversion of the goods. So, if the noble Lord will take my advice, he will not do that again.
I appreciate, of course, that if this undesirable practice of salesmanship is indulged in, there is a need to clarify the legal position of the ownership of the goods; and I am quite sure that my noble friend Lady Elliot will be sufficiently flexible in Committee to discuss the actual terms of what is proposed.
LORD DONALDSON OF KINGSBRIDGE: My Lords, may I clear up one point with the noble and learned Lord? We have all been led to believe—all the people who have been examining this; I suppose on some good legal authority, but I cannot quote it—that if, for example, you receive a gramophone record into your house through the post; you look at it and find that it is something you have not ordered and leave it on your hall table, and your child breaks it, you are liable. If this is not true, I think it rather changes the whole picture.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, in the brief provided for me, the Board of Trade solemnly say that it is true. But I take leave to doubt it. I cannot see how that differs from the case that I tried to describe, of the man who drops the goods by parachute—I always give absurd legal examples, because they bring out the principle more clearly than the likely ones. I was very careful not to say it, because I think the Departmental view is probably nearer to the noble Lord's than mine; but I do not see how you can impose a bailment on someone unless he consents to it. Of course, it is very easy to consent if you have used the goods, but if your child sits on them, or throws them out of the window, I cannot see that you are necessarily liable. I think that on an occasion like that it is a case of caveat vendor. However, my Lords, I must not

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give this gratuitous legal advice, because it is almost certainly wrong. But that is my genuine opinion. I think this matter needs clarifying, and I am sure that the attitude of my noble friend will be sufficiently flexible during the Committee stage. I say again that if she wants to consult the various Departments involved in this matter, or any of my right honourable friends in another place, about what would be viable on Committee we will do our best to help, without breaking our neutrality.
The last of the three mischiefs which is aimed at was put in on Committee stage in another place, and relates to this sexual technique business. I must, I think, instruct my noble friend Lord Derwent more throughly on this subject. I will tell him first of all what it is about. I can describe what it is about because I probably know more about this particular mischief than any other man in the country; and I will tell your Lordships why. A year ago I was the Opposition spokesman in another place on home affairs, and at that time there was a firm called the Julian Press. I am told that they have since "gone bust", and I am very happy to hear it. They devised the idea of sending out fairly widespread a circular, and, if you fined it in, you were led to believe that you were going to receive a book which would tell you exactly "how to do it" (if I may put it delicately in that way)—as if you did not already know.
The pamphlet said: "Do you want to make your marriage more happy?" The book was said to be frank, highly descriptive and courageous—all of which are virtues which the right reverend Prelates would endorse. A great many of these leaflets were put out. I receive a great many leaflets—there is some advantage in being the son of a clergyman. The noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kings-bridge, said that he never receives leaflets, but I have had a great many, some of which, I am happy to say, I received in my own right.
I was tempted to do something suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, and send in a hoax order. I thought of various persons whose names I might fill in. Eventually, I said to myself, "No; I am a Queen's Counsel; I am a Privy Counsellor, a person of dignity and responsibility". So I did not put in an
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order. Unfortunately, other people who had received these leaflets thought at once of me. I must have been sent something like 500 of these circulars. Many of them were from people in the constituency for which I was then Member in another place, and they had every reason to send them, saying that they did not like the circulars. Many Conservative Members of another place also wrote to me, as their spokesman, on this question and asked if I could do something about it; and a large number of the public, without regard to their own Members of Parliament, wrote to me because they thought that, as a Christian, I would strongly object.
In the pamphlet itself there was nothing at all obscene; otherwise the people concerned would have been prosecuted for obscenity. It did describe, whether fraudulently or honourably I do not know, a book which if not actually obscene, would have been very enjoyable for those who enjoy obscene literature. But it was seat out in a widespread way. I had one which was sent to a nunnery. All the nuns had one. Another, for example, was sent to a woman who had just been widowed, and in the throes of grief, asking her, "Would you like your marriage to be a happy one?" Even children received it. It was sent without the smallest apparent knowledge of the kind of people who were recipients. I suppose that some label-addressing company had sent out these leaflets. But I can tell your Lordships that people were very angry indeed.
The clause in the Bill, as it has come to us from another place, is a reflection of the almost universal indignation which is felt in that place because of this nuisance. Apart from the Julian Press, two or three other firms were doing the same thing. I regard this as a very objectionable practice, not because it was obscene but because it was an invasion of privacy. It might not have been very highly criminal; it was simply exploiting sexual curiosity for profit. It had nothing whatever to do with selling contraceptive devices, which I do not think is a description of sexual techniques, but is a way of selling goods. It bore no relation at all to the Family Planning Association or any reputable body whatever.
The other place inserted this clause—which admittedly has defects, some of

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them known to my noble friend (and it may be slightly out of place)—because the Members objected to this unsolicited method of exploiting sexual curiosity for profit. On a free vote the other place sent us this clause for what seems to me to be a fairly good reason. It is not any attempt to try to suppress family planning in any way. All I can say to my noble friend is that if she consults with the Government to see whether she can improve the wording of this clause, perhaps by an Amendment in Committee, our services are at her disposal. We are benevolently neutral on this Bill.
I hope that I have managed to assist noble Lords in knowing a little more about the Bill and the arguments that ought to weigh their decision. If there are any points on which I can help your Lordships, I will do my best to do so.
5.35 p.m.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: My Lords, we have had a very interesting debate on the Second Reading of this Bill and we are exceedingly grateful for the delightful, brilliant and altogether entertaining speech from our noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor. The Bill has had a very different reception in your Lordships' House from the one it received in another place. I did not listen to the debate there, but I have read all the papers and it was surprising to find that one or two Members, whom I had not anticipated to be so critical, put forward criticisms of the Bill.
I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, for her support of the Bill. On her question about enforcement, I shall certainly consult my friends and I am sure that we can meet her on that point. I am also most grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Rochester for his contribution.
I listened with enormous interest to the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry. I thought that the mail order firms had really got busy behind the scenes and had organised their speakers in this House. For a moment I thought it was a pity that I had not organised a few myself. But I left it entirely to noble Lords who are interested in the Bill and I did not organise any support from any particular quarter for the Bill.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I must interrupt the noble Baroness. I had neither organised nor sought to inspire speeches on this Bill at all.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: My Lords, it seems to be clear that the mail order firms have done a certain amount of work by way of support. All the opposition came from those who think that the Bill will interfere with mail order firms. So far as I know, it is not going to interfere with them at all, so long as the code of practice (which the noble Baroness instituted and which clearly has had a tremendous effect) is enforced. The noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, and I know something of this and we are grateful to the noble Baroness and her organisation. I am not at all against mail order firms; nor is my honourable friend in another place who instituted the Bill nor, it seems to me in reading through the Reports of another place, is anybody else. We are against those practices against which the noble Baroness's code was directed; and the code has had the effect of improving the mail order business practice.
I am not sure that I entirely agree with what the noble Baroness said—I do not suppose that she expected me to do so. I understood her to imply that there were really few unsolicited goods sent to people, but in the course of my life I have found a great deal of evidence of tiresome and difficult cases of the sending of unsolicited goods which have been harmful to individual people. As noble Lords have said, the practice has decreased and I think that this Bill will certainly give us power to stop it.
I think my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor has answered the points put by my noble friend Lord Derwent, and I do not think I need say anything further about that. I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, that six months is too short a time to track down bills or accounts or whatever it may be. It seems to me that any business should be able to deal with matters of that kind in six months. Another noble Lord said that it used to be one month; it is now suggested that it should be six months. I think that 12 months is too long.
My noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor also answered some of the

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questions put by the noble Lord, Lord Platt. I was married to a doctor for some 25 years, and I remember that, although he left the profession quite early in his life, for the remainder of his life he received unsolicited goods from the pharmaceutical industry: in fact, this went on after he died and I used to receive them.
LORD PLATT: My Lords, if I may interrupt for one moment, I was not including the kind of things that one gets from the pharmaceutical firms because they do not expect any payment; they are sent as samples.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: I may have misunderstood the noble Lord. I do not think I distinguished between samples and pharmaceutical goods. But I know that they came to our house years and years after their use had become immaterial, so far as my husband was concerned, and I personally never had any use for them.
I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, and the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, for their support of the Bill. I think they have as much experience of this subject as anyone else, and I am glad that they think the Bill is worth while. The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, referred to mail order companies. I would only say that excellent mail order companies and the code of practice are much to be supported. Anything beyond that or less than that I should be opposed to.
I should like to thank my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor for his contribution, which is most helpful. I may say that I shall certainly ask for some advice from the legal department on Clause 4, and I shall he happy again to have my noble and learned friend's help. I think the debate has been most interesting, and I am grateful to all those who have taken part.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

MINERAL WORKINGS BILL [H.L.]
5.43 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (LORD SANDFORD): My Lords, I beg to move
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that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Sandford.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD STRANG in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Contributions from ironstone operators towards Ironstone Restoration Fund]:
LORD GARNSWORTHY LORD GARNSWORTHY moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 1, line 14, after ("State") insert ("after consultation with the Advisory Committee on Ironstone Restoration").
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 1 standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Greenwood of Rossendale and myself. At the outset, I should like to apologise for the absence of my noble friend. He would have been speaking at this time instead of me had he not been called away to an important engagement.
In moving this Amendment I would say that we on this side of the Committee welcome Lord Sandford's agreement that the Advisory Committee should be retained, but we are not wholly happy about the position. We are not happy about its membership, its terms of reference or the frequency with which its advice will be taken or even sought. It clearly has not been used effectively in the past, as is shown by the long period since it last met and the very sorry financial position which has developed. If it had been consulted more frequently perhaps the process of rehabilitation would have been expedited and the fund would have remained in balance.
It is our view that the Advisory Committee will be much more useful if it does not consist only of the vested interests involved: for example, the Iron and Steel Board, the landowners and the sub-contractors. We think that it ought also to include local authorities as planning authorities, and that there would be tremendous value in including representatives of amenities societies, such as the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, as representing the wider general public. We say this partly because it is in line with the last Government's planning reforms and the new emphasis being

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placed on public participation, and partly because the quality and pace of rehabilitation will affect the cost of the operation, which in its turn will determine the adequacy of the levy. The advice to the Secretary of State could be invaluable, especially when coming, as would be the case, from a much more representative body.
We shall listen carefully to what the Minister has to say, and if he can give assurances (as I hope he will) that consideration, and maybe acceptance, of these points is in the mind of the Government, then we shall gladly withdraw this and the other Amendments standing in our name, with the exception of that dealing with Clause 4. May I say on behalf of my noble friend and myself that we very much welcome the support of Lord Greenwood's name to the Amendment.
It seems to us that the Association of Municipal Corporations may be very much of the view that I have been expressing. They certainly would like to be consulted about any proposals for reshaping the Advisory Committee with new terms of reference should it be decided not to abolish it.
It may be for the convenience of your Lordships if I mention now that the Association regret very much that there is to be no increase, apparently—at least, so far as they are able to appreciate—in the Exchequer contribution, which it seems ought to be made if only to take account of increasing costs and changes in money values. They also regret—and, speaking personally, I share their regret—that the Bill is limited to ironstone workings and has not the wider measure of application that has been suggested to other mineral workings.
5.48 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD: I am glad to hear from the noble Lord that he thinks that the moving of this Amendment would be the appropriate moment at which to speak to virtually all the other Amendments on the Marshalled List, except for Nos. 2 and 3 which are in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Henley. I think this would be very much for the convenience of the Committee. All the Amendments in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, and the noble Lord, Lord Greenwood of Rossendale,
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presuppose that the Advisory Committee will not be abolished, as had been proposed in Clause 4 and is now proposed in subsection (2) of the Government's new clause. We have reconsidered the arguments in favour of retaining the Advisory Committee, but I must tell your Lordships that we are not persuaded at this stage that it is necessary to retain it.
Perhaps by way of a preliminary I could remind the Committee that we are now dealing with mineral workings in the context of well-established planning procedures, backed up with planning conditions, whereas in 1951, in the original Act which set up this Advisory Committee, Her Majesty's Government of that day were dealing with restoration which had been neglected in an era prior to any of the planning legislation which we now have.
Although the Advisory Committee helped in settling the standard rate originally, the circumstances are now different in a number of other ways. It is not now a question of quantifying the restoration obligations of operators under their leases in 1950, but of revising the original amount of £110 to allow for inflation. This involves merely the selection of a suitable new index. Consultations so far with the British Steel Corporation do not suggest that there will be any difficulty about this. If other questions arise they can now best and most conveniently be considered in direct consultation with the British Steel Corporation and representatives of the ironstone owners. If, exceptionally, any issue did arise which required independent advice, there would be nothing to prevent such advice from being obtained on an ad hoc basis. In the Government's view, there is no justification for maintaining a statutory body for that purpose.
It has been suggested that maintenance of the Committee would avoid any recurrence of the danger of insolvency. I do not think that suggestion is well conceived. The Committee was never a watchdog over the running of the Ironstone Restoration Fund and it would not be appropriate to re-constitute it as such. The solvency of the Fund depends essentially, on the one hand, on the level of ironstone production and the rate of contribution; and on the other hand, on the timing and extent of restoration work

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Provided that the basic facts and forecasts about production and restoration are available from the industry, and given that the contributions and standard rate can be varied—which has not hitherto been possible—it should not prove too difficult to secure that enough funds are available to meet commitments. But this, too, points to the need, not for the maintenance of a statutory committee, but for close co-operation with the industry and landowners.
But the Secretary of State readily agrees to the points made in the Second Reading debate that he should be open to advice from those directly concerned with the results of the orders he can make under the first three clauses, and he is willing to accept a statutory requirement that he should consult them before exercising these powers. That is what one of my Amendments gives effect to. And I can give an additional assurance that he will, in any case, consult not less frequently than annually, whether he needs to exercise these powers or not. As the Bill stands, he would have been obliged to consult the British Steel Corporation before fixing a new standard rate under Clause 3. Under the new clause which the Government have put down he would now be obliged also to consult before making an order under Clause 1 fixing a new rate of contributions payable by operators, and before making an order under Clause 2 specifying the owners' share of those contributions. And, further, the owners would be joined in the consultations on all three Order-making powers, and that would be in the Statute.
The new Government clause, as I have said, requires consultation before Orders are made under all the new powers. Although the Order-making powers provide for the much-needed degree of flexibility, new Orders may not be a frequent occurrence. It is for that reason I have given the assurance that the Secretary of State intends to arrange for both the British Steel Corporation and the Ironstone Royalty Owners and landowners' representatives to have an opportunity, not less frequently than once a year, of discussing the state of the Fund, the adequacy of the contributions and of the standard rate in force at the time, and so on. In this way information and advice will be exchanged and review of production and restoration trends should ensure
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good notice of the need for corrective measures.
Here may I make a point that relates to Amendment No. 8 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Henley. To extend the field of consultation required under the clause to cover persons who do not contribute, or whose rights to draw upon the Fund are not affected by the Orders—or bodies representing such persons—would not appear either desirable or appropriate. This is not to say, however, that the ironstone operators or royalty owners would be precluded from consulting, or including among their representatives persons having experience of the kinds described in the Amendment. That would certainly not be so. Nor, indeed, would the Secretary of State be in any way precluded from making a wider consultation if he were satisfied that such wider consultation were necessary. But it would not be right, in the context of the Orders concerning contributions and the standard rate, to require, by Statute, consultation with persons or bodies not directly concerned.
Nor is it proposed to require consultation in all this with the local authority associations, who are not directly concerned in this particular matter. They do not contribute, and the variation of the standard rate affects only the drawing upon the Fund by ironstone operators. However, if at any time it appeared necessary to consult them about general principles, the Secretary of State would certainly do so—I give that assurance—as he did last year when the possibility of winding up the Fund was under review. We have been in touch with the appropriate local authority associations about the changes we are now discussing.
I hope that that explanation of what we are importing into the Bill to take the place of the Advisory Committee will give the noble Lords who have had misgivings the reassurances for which they have been asking, and enable them to accept my two Amendments, Nos. 6 and 7, when we come to them, and to withdraw their own.
5.57 p.m.
LORD HENLEY: On Second Reading I welcomed the fact that the Government had listened to representations about the

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Restoration Fund, and I want to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, on being so willing to listen to the representations about consultations that we made from all sides of the House on Second Reading. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, that it was because of previous defective consultation that the Fund fell down. I take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, that the Advisory Committee was not a watchdog. Nevertheless, if it had been consulted, even though the Minister saw no good reason for consulting it, it might have become apparent earlier that the Fund was getting into difficulties.
The noble Lord has come up with suggestions for consultation which seem to cover nearly all the points that I had in mind. First of all, it is fair that the rates should be settled in this way, with the advice and, I hope, the consent of the people concerned rather than by means of the arbitrary powers of the Secretary of State. I take the noble Lord's point that it is easier to do this on a non-statutory basis; that possibly a more flexible kind of consultation could take place if it is not laid down exactly how it shall take place. I note that the noble Lord does not wish to enlarge the body from which he draws advice by calling on those who are not directly concerned. I do not imagine that this will quite satisfy the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy; I think he would have liked to see the amenity bodies, county councils and other similar bodies, also consulted. I think I should, too. Nevertheless, the noble Lord has made quite a good case for saying that in this particular instance it is not necessary.
I do not go with him all the way in saying that the well-established planning procedures are good enough; they are not good enough in this context. It may well be that the whole business of planning permission with regard to this kind of mineral working has to be looked at again. I like the frequency with which this Advisory Committee is going to be called into being. I am sure that that is a good plan, even if, as the noble Lord says, there is nothing immediately for them to decide. Because it is not only the money rates and standard rates and contribution that are to be considered; it is the whole business of restoration. This
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is something which was dealt with in the 1951 Act; I think it is Section 34(3) which said that any other matter concerning restoration could be considered by the Committee. I hope that "any other matter" will be considered by the Minister's advisers.
When it conies to my Amendment to the noble Lord's Amendment, I think I shall have very little to say. I am not sure I need move it. The noble Lord gave me fair satisfaction on that point. I should like to turn it over in my mind. He uses the word "ironstone"; I use the word "mineral", and the reason why I changed the word was that I felt there might be difficulties so far as the British Steel Corporation is concerned, as the Corporation is responsible to the Minister, in making any points as forcibly as some independent party could do. Also, I felt that as grants can be made under Section 20 of the 1951 Act covering management and future farming of the land after restoration, consultation with owners of purely ironstone-bearing land would perhaps be too narrow. For that reason I changed the word from "ironstone" to "mineral". It makes it slightly wider than the noble Lord's.
The noble Lord says that he does not want to bring in people who are not directly concerned. I am not sure whether that is the right course. Perhaps between now and the time when Amendment No. 7 comes up the noble Lord can turn that point over in his mind. What the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, has said, with the possible exception of the question of county councils and so on, is very good indeed, and I congratulate him on the flexibility with which he has viewed this whole problem.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH AND QUEENSBERRY: In speaking on this Bill I should declare an interest, because I am concerned with iron ore minerals in the Midlands. While thanking the Government for giving timely attention to this problem, I would add a few words to what has been said already. I was hoping—I think most of us in the Midlands were hoping—that there would be an Advisory Committee of a statutory nature which could at any time ask for consultation on many problems which will arise. But I note that the Minister has made another offer, which I hope will go

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a long way, if not the whole way, to meet the requirement. I thank him for giving what I understand will be a statutory right to consultation for owners of minerals and others as well as the operators.
The treatment of land after mining involves a most difficult operation, or series of operations, as to the choice and degree of restoration for farming and forestry. A great deal has been achieved during the last twenty years or so through co-operation among people on all sides associated with iron ore mining and the land; also, and in particular perhaps, through the help of representatives of the Ministry of Agriculture on future use and improvement of the land. I am sure that there is agreement now as to the importance of continuing to restore the land for some form of production and for the preservation of the landscape and the countryside's appearance. I hope the Ministry visualise the extent of the physical problem and of the financial failures which would be greater and more difficult in future. There will be problems and difficult decisions, and a need for consultation closer and more frequent than before. I hope, therefore, that there will be an early consultation with all those who are concerned.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: The noble Lord, Lord Sandford, must be reasonably pleased by the range of support he has received in the Committee for what he has indicated we may expect. Personally, I welcome very much the support of the noble Lord, Lord Henley, in regard to local authority representation and consultation with them; and the same with regard to the amenity societies. I very much hope that that point may be looked at further. In the meantime, I welcome such assurances as have been given. But may I say that I think it reasonable that we should have an opportunity to study carefully what has been said? If we should feel that we ought to come back to the point on Report stage, I hope that it will be understood why we are taking that action. Or it may well be that the matter could be left to be dealt with at the Second Reading of the Bill in another place. Meanwhile, on the basis of what has been said, and with the leave of the Committee, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.6 p.m.
LORD HENLEY LORD HENLEY moved Amendments Nos. 2 and 2A:
Page 1, line 15, after ("shall") insert ("also");
Page 1, line 15, leave out ("in addition to the full rate").
The noble Lord said: Going with Amendment No. 2 is a manuscript Amendment of which I think most of your Lordships now have copies. I apologise for this. It is a small drafting point and Amendments Nos. 2A and 2 are really all part of the same thing. When I put the Amendment down last night I am sorry to say I put down half of it and forgot to put down the other half and I noticed that only this afternoon. What it amounts to is that the clause will now read as follows, on page 1, line 15:
"An order under subsection (2) above shall also specify a lower rate of contributions …".
What I have done is to put the word "also" in after "shall" and left out, ", in addition to the full rate,". The reason why I have done that is that as the clause is drafted—and I am quite ready to be told by the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, that the legal experts say I am wrong—it seemed to me that the provision could be interpreted to require the order to specify an additional rate. This is obviously not the intention. The reduced rate should be specified and applicable, not as an addition but in substitution for the full rate for pre-February 15, 1951—full restoring leases and ironstone land held on charitable trusts or for charitable purposes. It is a very small point and your Lordships may well say that as you read the original draft it is perfectly clear that it could not be interpreted to require the order to specify an additional rate. Nevertheless, it ought to be made clear and I beg to move.
LORD SANDFORD: I will not go so far as to say that the noble Lord, Lord Henley, is wrong, but I can assure him that his Amendment is not necessary and there is no danger of the subsection as drafted being interpreted in the sense that one rate can be added on top of another rate. It allows only for the specification of two different rates to apply to two different classes of land. I hope that with that assurance the noble Lord will be willing to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD HENLEY: With that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendments.
Amendments, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 agreed to.
6.10 p.m.
LORD HENLEY LORD HENLEY moved Amendment No. 3:
After Clause 1, insert the following new clause:
Contributions in respect of Ironstone extracted before 1st April, 1971
" . In respect of ironstone extracted before 1st April 1971 by opencast operations from land within the ironstone district as defined in the Act of 1951 and on which contributions have or will be paid under section 3 of the said Act the Secretary of State shall pay into the Fund such sums as are required from time to time to meet the payments to operators under section 9 of the Act of 1951 such sums to be defrayed out of moneys provided by Parliament."
The noble Lord said: On Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Greenwood, drew our attention to the fact that there were still some 3,000 acres of land worked for ironstone to be restored to agriculture or forestry, and that the cost of this operation would be something in the order of £1½ million. I think this figure is not challenged by the Government, but clearly it would leave a heavy deficiency in the restoration fund, which at the moment I believe, stands at considerably less than half a million pounds; and quite an amount of that sum represents outstanding claims in the pipeline against it. Obviously there will be a deficiency of something like £1 million. The noble Lord said that in his view it would not be altogether fair that this deficiency should be met out of future contributions to the fund, and that the fair and just thing would be for the Government to accept responsibility for settling all the outstanding claims on the fund as at the end of March this year.
It may well be that operators other than British Steel Corporation will be entering into new leases. While this is not very likely, it is possible; and if it is likely that there will be new mineral owners entering into new leases it does not seem fair that they should be asked to bear the burden of this deficiency when the contributions for it have already been received.
I think that the Government—or successive Governments—cannot alto-
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gether escape from the suggestion that in part they have been responsible for the building up of this deficiency. During the Second Reading debate we discussed at some length the fact that the old Advisory Committee had not been convened for 13 years. It was also pointed out that even if the Advisory Committee had been convened there were certain things with regard to the raising of prices that they could not do. Nevertheless, I feel it was rather curious to have an Advisory Committee which was never called upon for advice, and, had it been called on for advice, as I said before, it would have become apparent that something was going wrong with the fund. This Amendment is designed to enable the Secretary of State to deal with the current deficiency in the fund in respect of land from which contribution has already been paid, rather than that it should be met by increased contributions on future extraction. I beg to move.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH AND QUEENSBERRY: The 1951 Act made just enough financial provision to enable immense progress to be made. There is considerable anxiety that unless there is some further assurance of help for the fund it will be much more difficult in future to pay for attending to some land already worked, and it seems likely that in future a smaller percentage of the land could be fully restored to agriculture and that the greater amount will have to be levelled without top surface and put into forestry instead of into farming.
Without having any idea of what the Minister has it in mind to impose in future in the way of levies for the fund, I find it difficult to speak on this matter, but I think everyone hopes that in the consultations soon to follow provision will be made which will enable the existing backlog to be removed and the future work to be done as everyone wishes it to be done.
LORD SANDFORD: In responding to this Amendment I think perhaps I ought to start by saying that were we to carry it we should, I think, be infringing the privileges of another place. That does not mean to say that there would be any harm in discussing the matter; in fact I think it would be helpful to comment on the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Henley, because it clearly caused concern

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to a number of noble Lords at Second Reading. In that debate the broad suggestion was that the Exchequer should wipe the slate clean so that the provision of financial arrangements under the Bill would relate to future operations only. It was argued that it is inequitable that the results of some failure to take remedial action at an earlier date should be visited upon the present industry, vested in the British Steel Corporation. However, this new clause seeks to go still further and to require the Exchequer to meet not merely that part of the restoration costs not covered by the existing balance of the fund, but the whole cost of that work for which there is manifestly no justification.
As I said during the Second Reading debate, the present situation has resulted from a combination of three different circumstances. Initially, it stemmed from the fact that the Act of 1951 contained no provision for revision of the arrangements to allow for inflation and other changes in circumstances. But the effect of that adverse trend is now being accelerated by declining home ore production, and the decisions of the British Steel Corporation to close quarries, which have only recently emerged. Even if earlier action had been possible, however, and if amending legislation had been introduced by our predecessors a little earlier and the present circumstances had been foreseeable, I think it must be assumed that the action taken would have been on similar lines to what is now proposed; that is to say, the claims by operators on the fund would have been reduced by raising the standard rate to reflect the increased costs of restoration, and the contributions would have been raised.
It may be suggested that in that event the additional cost would have fallen upon the former operators or, to put it another way, it is the former operators and not the British Steel Corporation who have benefited from the fact that earlier revisions were not possible owing to the rigidity of the Act. This may be so, but the fact that our predecessors chose not to alter the incidence of the liability within the industry is no reason for seeking now to shift the liability away from the industry to somebody else; namely, the taxpayer. Some of the land for which restoration liability currently exists will be land which the Corporation have
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themselves worked and for which they are plainly responsible. It is true that some will be land which has been worked by other operators, but as the proper successor to the industry and heir to its liabilities as well as its assets, it is right that the responsibility should pass squarely on to the shoulders of the Corporation and not on to the shoulders of the taxpayer.
I recognise that it would be attractive to the industry to have the slate wiped clean, but this can only be done at the taxpayer's expense and there is no sufficient reason why the taxpayer should foot this particular Bill. During the Second Reading debate (15/3/71; col. 272) the noble Lord, Lord Greenwood of Rossendale, referred to the generally accepted principle that we in the Department of the Environment certainly endorse; that is, that the man who despoils or damages the countryside must be made to pay for the damage for which he is responsible. I submit that it would be the negation of that principle for the taxpayer to assume the responsibility for meeting the outstanding liabilities beyond the extent already agreed; that is to say, from the continuation of Exchequer contributions at the existing rate per ton. It is for those reasons that I must advise the Committee not to accept the Amendment of the noble Lord, should he decide to press it, although I hope that, in the light of that explanation, he will not do so.
LORD HENLEY: I rather feared that in moving this Amendment I might be infringing the privileges of the Commons, but as I knew the noble Lord was very unlikely to accept the Amendment, and that even if I pressed it I should be defeated, I nevertheless decided to put the point before the Committee. In spite of what the noble Lord says, I am not convinced that what he is suggesting is altogether fair. I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Greenwood: that those who make a mess should clear it up; but I am not sure that Governments have not contributed to this mess by their own negligence, so that they should help to clear it up. And they are not helping very much to clear it up, in that they are not making an increase in their own contribution. This seems to me unfair. The operators are going

1511
to have to increase their contributions; the standard rate will have to be doubled, or even more. The contribution from the royalty owners is going to be increased. I cannot help feeling that the least the Government could do, if they are not going to wipe the slate clean, is to increase their own contribution very substantially.
Nevertheless, I still think that, because our predecessors here did not seek to shift the burden, did not seek to alter the rate, did not seek to inquire who should pay for it, future operators and owners should have to foot the bill. The noble Lord, spoke only of the operators, but there are the owners as well. They are in a different case from the operators. Whereas it is unlikely that there will be any new operators, other than the British Steel Corporation—unless the Government are going to hive this off; and I do not think so—the owners will be entering into new leases; there will be new owners who were not there before, and they are going to have to pay for the mistakes previously made. I feel, with the noble Lord, Lord Greenwood, that it would be only fair and just if some measure of this cost was met by the Government. I cannot say that I am in any way satisfied or reassured by the noble Lord. However, I know that I am unlikely to get enough support to be able to defeat the noble Lord's Government in this matter, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clause 3 [Variation of the standard rate]:
6.25 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 6:
Page 3, line 42, leave out subsection (3).
The noble Lord said: I do not think there is there is anything more of substance which I wish to add before moving this Amendment, except perhaps to agree with those noble Lords who indicated by what they said that our planning legislation, planning procedures and planning conditions do have a considerable bearing on this matter, but they are not strictly relevant to this rather narrow
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Bill. It may be that they are not in all respects perfect, but I am convinced that this Bill is not the right vehicle in which to set them to rights. That is one point I wanted to make. Apart from that, I think I have said everything I want to say on these next two Amendments. I beg to move Amendment No. 6.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
LORD SANDFORD: I beg to move Amendment No. 7.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 3, insert the following new clause:
Consultation with ironstone operators and owners and abolition of existing Advisory Committee
" .—(1) Before making an order under any of the preceding provisions of this Act, the Secretary of State shall consult such persons or bodies of persons as appear to him to be representative of ironstone operators and of owners of interests in land from which ironstone is extracted as mentioned in section 1 above.
(2) The Advisory Committee on Ironstone Restoration established under section 34 of the Act of 1951, is hereby abolished."—(Lord Sandford.)
LORD HENLEY LORD HENLEY moved, as an Amendment to Amendment No. 7, Amendment No. 8:
Line 3, leave out from ("be") to end of line 5 and insert ("expedient including persons or bodies of persons having experience of ownership and management of rural land, of ownership and management of mineral bearing land and of mineral workings.")
The noble Lord said: Before I ask leave to withdraw this Amendment I should like a word from the noble Lord as to whether he feels there is any substance in what I had to say about the possible difficulties for the British Steel Corporation in arguing their own case to their own Minister. That is why I used the concept of "mineral" rather than "ironstone". The other point is really in line with that; it is about the grants that can be made under Section 20 of the 1951 Act. Here again I think one should use "mineral" rather than "ironstone". I know this is a fairly narrow Bill; the noble Lord has pointed out that that is one of the reasons why he does not want it regarded as pro forma for other mineral operations, because it deals with only one aspect, ironstone. He

1513
argued that for that reason he did not want to bring in anybody not directly concerned. But has he anything to say on this point? I beg to move.
LORD SANDFORD: The noble Lord asked me to expand on two points. First of all, we have, of course, had extensive consultations already with the British Steel Corporation and there is no indication that there are any difficulties arising from the reason the noble Lord indicated. As to the next point, about the interests of those bodies not directly concerned with the operation of the Fund, perhaps I should say that the purpose of the original 1951 Act was to deal with 2,500 acres of past dereliction which had arisen in an era before there was any planning legislation or possibility of imposing planning conditions. That situation no longer exists. That past dereliction has been cleared up, thanks to the operation of the original Act, and planning legislation and planning conditions are available to deal with the matters that were neglected at that time. The amenity interests, local authorities et cetera, now have their say in the matter at the stage of a planning application and perhaps a local planning inquiry, all of which goes on in connection with mineral workings, as it does with a planning application to build a house or a highway. The Mineral Workings Bill does not replace that in any way, but it exists side by side and in parallel with it. I hope that satisfies the noble Lord.
LORD HENLEY: It does not quite satisfy me. What I felt about this question of grant under the 1951 Act was that in so far as grant can be paid for restoration of land worked, both for agriculture and forestry, under the 1951 Act, it would be reasonable to discuss the question of restoration with people who were not necessarily immediately concerned with ironstone only. There are new techniques. All sorts of things are being done in restoration; and as grants are to be given, is the noble Lord not keeping the Committee too narrow by not allowing himself to consult people not immediately concerned with ironstone. That is why I raised the question of the 1951 Act, and he has not quite answered that. Nevertheless, I do not think the
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point is important enough to press it. I would say once again that the noble Lord must not attribute too much to the planning conditions, because they are not adequate with regard to a great deal of mineral working and they need to be looked at. Nevertheless, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment to the Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4 [Abolition of Advisory Committee on Ironstone Restoration]:
On Question, Whether Clause 4 shall stand part of the Bill?
Resolved in the negative, and Clause 4 disagreed to accordingly.
Remaining clauses and Schedules agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported with the Amendments.

ADMINISTRATION OF ESTATES BILL
6.32 p.m.
LORD SIMON OF GLAISDALE: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Simon of Glaisdale.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF LISTOWEL in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 to 9 agreed to.
Clause 10 [Retainer, preference and the payment of debts by personal representatives]:
LORD SIMON OF GLAISDALE LORD SIMON OF GLAISDALE moved, as an Amendment to Clause 10:
Page 7, line 11, leave out subsection (2) and insert—
"(2) Nevertheless a personal representative—

(a) other than one mentioned in paragraph (b) below, who, in good faith and at a time when he has no reason to believe that the deceased's estate is insolvent, pays the debt of any person (including himself) who is a creditor of the estate; or

(b) to whom letters of administration had been granted solely by reason of his being a creditor and who, in good faith and at

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such a time, pays the debt of another person who is a creditor of the estate;

shall not, if it subsequently appears that the estate is insolvent, be liable to account to a creditor of the same degree as the paid creditor for the sum so paid."
The noble and learned Lord said: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name on the Order Paper. I hope it will not be inappropriate if I say a little more about this Amendment than I should otherwise have done, in the hope that it may save time if the clause itself comes to be discussed, because this was the only clause of the Bill about which any concern was shown. On the contrary, I think that the Bill as a whole, which is based on two very valuable Papers, that of the Working Party of Mr. Registrar Kenworthy, relating to Resealing of Grants, and that of the Law Commission, on Administration Bonds, was widely welcomed.
The Bill itself was widely welcomed on its publication, and indeed on its Second Reading. The only misgiving expressed was on this clause, Clause 10, when some representations were made at a late stage—after the Law Commission had made its publication and recommendations, and after all stages had been taken on the Bill in another place. Concern was expressed by the Chancery Bar Association and by the Law Reform Committee of the Law Society, and it was expressed with great vigour here on Second Reading by the noble Lord, Lord Janner, and perhaps more moderately by the noble Lord, Lord Milner of Leeds. If it was thought appropriate, therefore, by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, I proposed to consult with those who had made representations before this stage. I wanted to see how much there was in the objections and how far they could and should be met; and the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor approved of that course. I have had an opportunity of meeting the bodies to whom I have referred, and I should like to express my great gratitude for all their help.
There are certain matters on which I felt that their representations could and should be met, and the Amendment endeavours to do this. There were other matters on which I felt that their views could not, or should not, be met. First
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of all, they really wanted a general inquiry into administration on insolvency. That was not, of course, a matter on which I could satisfy them, since it does not rest with the sponsor of a Bill like this to recommend a Royal Commission or a departmental inquiry. I did, however, undertake to draw their concern to the notice of the noble and learned Lord who sits on the Woolsack; and I have in fact done so.
Alternatively, they proposed that the clause itself should be dropped, in the hope of an inquiry, and so that nothing should be done which might prejudice what they hoped would be the outcome of such inquiry. It seemed to me that the conclusive answer to that was given by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor on Second Reading, when he said that you could not simply abolish administration bonds and say nothing about rights of retainer and preference. In other words, my Lords, the dropping of the clause would involve the omission of a great part of the Bill which has been widely and enthusiastically welcomed.
There was one point of principle on which I found, after listening to the arguments as carefully as I could, that I did not feel I could recommend that the views of the bodies whom I consulted should be met, and that was that the rights of preference and retainer should remain as part of our law. I was left completely satisfied that the objections by the Law Commission to such rights were well founded.
Where I felt that it would be right to try to meet the objections was on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Janner, on Second Reading. That was really that if the rights of retainer and preference were abolished it might (I think he was inclined to put it higher) result in a personal representative having to postpone his own debt and its payment to that of all other creditors. The Amendment is primarily, though not exclusively, designed to meet that point. I placed it before the meeting that I held, as the draftsman had very kindly attended, and I undertook to consider any drafting improvements that might be suggested before a later stage of the Bill.
May I explain what the Amendment is intended to do? As your Lordships

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know, the Bill is concerned with the administration of the estates of deceased persons. However, the problem to which this Amendment is addressed arises only in insolvency estates, where there is not enough to pay all the debts; and it applies only between creditors of the same degree. As your Lordships know, there are various classes of creditors. There are the ordinary creditors, but there are also the preferred and the deferred creditors. We are concerned only with creditors of the same degree. The very ancient law gave two rights to the personal representative of the deceased, called preference and retainer. I emphasise that it was very ancient law, because I think the noble Lord, Lord Janner, was inclined to suggest that this was something that had suddenly been invented by the Law Commission. He quoted a case of 1932, although in fact the citation was in turn a quotation of a case of the 16th century. It is really to that time and not to to-day that these rights relate.
The ancient law gave to a person administering a deceased's estate a right, in certain circumstances, to pay certain debts of the same degree in priority to others. If the debt paid in priority was that of a third person it was called a preference. If it was the personal representative's own debt it was called a retainer. I tried to ascertain what are the origins of these ancient rights and they seem very obscure. I think preference probably related to the fact that in ancient times there was no clear right to pay the wages of servants in preference to other debts, and it was obviously reasonable that they should be promptly paid; hence, the right of preference, as I understand it. But wages of servants are now a preferred claim under the Bankruptcy Act and under the Administration of Estates Act. Then, as for retainer, so far as I can gather—and the books are clearer here—it was established because of the inability of a personal representative to sue himself. As that was so, any creditor could sue him and obtain a judgment debt. Up to 1925 a judgment debt had priority; it no longer has to-day, and therefore the whole basis of the right of retainer, like that of the right of preference, has, I submit to your Lordships, disappeared.
But in the meantime since these ancient rights were established, the great predecessors of the noble and learned Lord
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who sits on the Woolsack were developing the system of Equity, which has done so much to enlighten English law, and that has at least two principles which are quite inconsistent with retainer and preference. First, there is the principle, which is quite fundamental to Equity, that no one should be entitled to take advantage of a position of trust to benefit himself at the expense of another. Now retainer obviously involves precisely such a claim—a right to use your position of trust as personal representative to pay yourself first, when there may not be enough to pay everybody. The second principle was the great maxim: equality is equity. That is quite counter to the right of preference, because that embodies the very essence of inequality. One debt is preferred to the other, instead of their being abated equally if there is not enough money to pay both in full.
It was in view of the inequity and anomaly of the old rights of retainer and preference, that the Court of Probate, as long ago as 1877, established a practice requiring any creditor who took a grant to promise in his administration bond that he would not exercise these rights which the law otherwise gave him. I emphasise that that was as long ago as 1877. This is not a sudden seizure of ancient rights, as the noble Lord, Lord Janner, seemed to be suggesting on Second Reading. But the way that it was dealt with, which was the only way it could be dealt with by administrative or judicial action, left the retainer and the preference anomalously available when the grant was to some personal representative taking other than as creditor; for example, to an executor or to an ordinary administrator.
The Bill implements the recommendation of the Law Commission, which was made at the instance of the Law Society, and abolishes administration bonds. If the matter had stayed there, one would have introduced the inequity of the rights of retainer and preference where they had previously been abolished by administrative action. The Law Commission therefore recommended the general abolition of these rights. They would thereby remove an anomaly and extend equity. As I said, I personally had the opportunity of going further into

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the matter, and I am completely convinced that that recommendation was correct. I made inquiries as to where rights of retainer are now mainly used, and I was told that the following is a typical situation. A bank is appointed as executor and uses its right of retainer to pay off an overdraft of the deceased, in priority to, say, a debt of a small tradesman. That seems to me quite outrageous and, I think, shows that the Law Commission were entirely right in their recommendation.
But as the Bill stands at the moment it was felt in some quarters that it would prevent the personal representative from paying his own debt until all other debts of the same class had been paid. I hope your Lordships will not think that I am dealing with the matter too cursorily if I merely say that I felt that there was something in that objection. At any rate, it seemed to me to be a matter on which apprehension should be met, and that is the main purpose of this Amendment.
As subsection (2) of Clause 10 stands at the moment, it gives additional protection to the personal representative of an insolvent deceased. It ought therefore to enable administration to be dealt with more expeditiously; for example, by allowing prompt payment of small debts without waiting for all the claims to be sifted. It provides protection for the personal representative provided that he has no reason to believe the estate to be insolvent; provided he acts in good faith, and provided he acts reasonably.
Representations were made that that last requirement, of proving that he acted reasonably, might be too onerous on the personal representative. The Amendment therefore does two things: it removes the necessity of showing, in addition to other matters, that the personal representative has acted reasonably, and it makes it clear that he can in such circumstances as the clause deals with pay his own debt. I trust that those who had misgivings about this clause can now be reassured. I beg to move.
LORD MILNER OF LEEDS: As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, has said, the only objection raised against this Bill on Second Read-
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ing was in respect of Clause 10. The Amendment proposed by the noble and learned Lord meets the points raised about retainer and preference. The noble and learned Lord has agreed to consider before the Report stage minor modifications to the wording of the subsection. My noble friend Lord Janner, who spoke during the Second Reading debate with reference to Clause 10, has asked me to apologise to your Lordships' Committee for his absence. My noble friend has informed me that he approves of this Amendment, and I am sure that he would wish me to welcome on his behalf the proposed consideration of a further Amendment to subsection (2). I therefore express my thanks to the noble and learned Lord. We on this side of your Lordships' Committee support this Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I do not want to add much to what has been said. I am sure that the Committee is deeply indebted to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, who has taken such an immensity of trouble in discussing this question with the Law Society and with the Chancery Bar Association, and in producing an Amendment which is agreeable to them. The Law Commission do not dissent from it. I should merely like to thank the noble and learned Lord for a great deal of very useful knowledge which I have acquired during the course of his speech, which I very much enjoyed. I have always gone boldly on the principle that a man in a fiduciary position should not take advantage of that to profit himself. That seems to me strictly in accordance with natural morality, and it is certainly in accordance with the doctrines of my predecessors when they used to sit at first instance in equity. But I am happy to think that this compromise solution, without breaching that principle, has been arrived at; and I am very deeply grateful to the noble and learned Lord who has taken so much trouble.
Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses and Schedules agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported with the Amendment.

LAND REGISTRATION AND LAND CHARGES BILL [H.L.]
6.56 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now received.
Moved, That the Report be now received.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Then, Standing Order No. 42 having been suspended (pursuant to Resolution).
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the Standing Order having been suspended, I now have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Land Registration and Land Charges Bill, has consented to place Her interest, so far as it is concerned on behalf of the Crown, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 3a: an Amendment (privilege) made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

GREAT SOUTHERN CEMETERY AND CREMATORIUM COMPANY BILL [H.L.]
Examiners' Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable have been complied with, received, and Bill committed to the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
  DEATH CERTIFICATES AND POST-MORTEM EXAMINATIONS
  DEATH CERTIFICATES AND POST-MORTEM EXAMINATIONS