Sitting of 3 November 1970

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  NORTHAMPTON CORPORATION BILL [Lords]
  PEMBROKESHIRE WATER BOARD BILL [Lords]
  Read the Third time and passed, with Amendments.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Owner-Occupiers (Tax Relief)
    Mr. David Stoddartasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is Her Majesty's Government policy regarding income tax relief to owner-occupiers.
    The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Patrick Jenkin): We have no changes in mind.
    Mr. Stoddart: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in spite of the fact that there will be a cut of 6 per cent. in income tax relief from 1st April next, owner-occupiers will breathe a sigh of relief that they do not have to go through a means test like their unfortunate brethren in council houses before they qualify for income tax relief subsidy? Is he also aware that his answer will cause a great deal of heart-searching on the part of council tenants—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."]—because his policy will have been shown to be completely anti-social and divisive? Is he also—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Questions must be reasonably brief. Mr. Jenkin.
    Mr. Stoddart: I am coming to a conclusion—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman has asked enough. Mr. Jenkin.
    Mr. Jenkin: I think that the hon. Member has gone very much wider than the Question.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Will my hon. Friend remind the party opposite that the Tories abolished income tax Schedule A for owner-occupiers in 1963 in the teeth of opposition from the Labour Party?
    Mr. Jenkin: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Perhaps I can also remind the party opposite that it made a special exemption for relief from loan interest in respect of owner-occupiers.
    Mr. Alfred Morris: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the average amount of mortgage interest relief to home buyers is still considerably higher than the average amount of housing subsidy allowed to council house tenants? Has he seen the Ministerial replies I have had on this matter?
    Mr. Jenkin: If the hon. Gentleman has already had the answer to his question, I do not know why he is asking me.
    Mr. Denis Howell: While I agree with the Minister that the Labour Party when in power tried to encourage owner-occupiers, would he tell us on what grounds of philosophy or policy it is intended to discriminate in the tax rebate situation against the municipal tenant in favour of the owner-occupier?
    Mr. Jenkin: I would not accept for one moment that there has been any discrimination against the municipal tenant. He will still be entitled to substantial rebates.

    Wealth Tax
    Mr. Marquandasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will appoint a departmental committee to examine the possibility of introducing a wealth tax.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: No, Sir.
    Mr. Marquand: Is the hon. Member aware that his own figures to me in a Parliamentary answer last week show that the wealthiest 10 per cent. of the

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    country own 75 per cent. of the privately-owned wealth and the poorest 50 per cent. own none? Is this what the Tory Party means by "one nation"?
    Mr. Jenkin: It is the philosophy of the Tory Party that people should be encouraged to acquire wealth, and for that reason we have cut the rates of taxation.

    Public Expenditure
    Mr. Marquandasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he expects to complete his review of public expenditure.
    Mr. John Fraserasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has yet completed his review of public expenditure.
    The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Maurice Macmillan): I have nothing to add to the statement which my right hon. Friend made on 27th October.—[Vol. 805, c. 37–75.]
    Mr. Marquand: Is the Chief Secretary aware that £85 million, about 20 per cent. of the total savings for 1971–72, comes under the heading of "relative price effects and other adjustments", which include, apparently, adjustments in the price effects of social security benefits? Could he please tell us what proportion of the £85 million is due to changes in the relative price effect and what proportion is due to the other adjustments?
    Mr. Macmillan: I could not give that figure offhand but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that these are factual changes rather than changes in policy; that is to say, changes which have already happened. No doubt if the hon. Gentleman catches your eye, Mr. Speaker, he could elaborate the point at a later stage this week.
    Mr. John Fraser: What study has the right hon. Gentleman made of the effects on the cost of living of people who will not receive substantial tax reliefs as a result of the rises in fares, food prices, prescription charges, school meals and other charges which will go up for ordinary working men and women as a result of the publication and implementation of the White Paper?
    Mr. Macmillan: The Chancellor of the Exchequer will no doubt deal with that point tomorrow, should he be fortunate enough to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker. With the extra mitigation, no one among the lower-paid workpeople will be worse off. When the family income supplement is introduced, many will be considerably better off.
    Mr. Lane: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that in his projections of future public expenditure he will keep in mind the need for a further increase in retirement pensions before very long?
    Mr. Macmillan: These and the other consequential rises in social security benefits are contained in the forward estimate.
    Mr. Taverne: How can the Chief Secretary or his right hon. Friend justify claiming as a cut in public expenditure the figure of £125 million which was shortfall?
    Mr. Macmillan: The hon. and learned Gentleman has a curious view of this operation. What we are doing is trying to reduce the total impact of public expenditure on the economy. We are therefore making reductions in public expenditure. Some of them are accounted for by cuts; some of them, I am happy to say, came from shortfall.

    Private Industry (Prices)
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what measures he now intends to take to curb price increases in the private sector of industry.
    Mr. Maurice Macmillan: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 27th October to the hon. Member for the Hartlepools (Mr. Leadbitter) and to the reply given on 2nd November to the hon. Member for Newark (Mr. Bishop).
    Mr. Hamilton: I cannot remember those answers, but I expect that they were pretty useless. Is it not the case that, far from taking steps to curb price increases, the Government have deliberately gone out of their way to encourage them? Therefore, how can the Government expect workers and trade unions to exercise any restraint since the only thing that workers have to sell is their labour?
    Mr. Macmillan: The hon. Gentleman and, indeed, the whole House know perfectly well that not only wage demands but wage settlements have greatly exceeded any rise in the cost of living and that any additional rises for sections of wage earners resulting from my right hon. Friend's measures are very small indeed compared with those caused by the pressure of excessive wage demands on operating costs.

    Selective Employment Tax
    Mr. McNamaraasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he will introduce legislation to abolish selective employment tax.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Anthony Barber): Proposals for the abolition of S.E.T. will be laid before the House at the appropriate time.
    Mr. McNamara: When does the right hon. Gentleman expect the appropriate time to be? When it is the appropriate time, may we expect it to be accompanied by further slashing cuts in social benefits such as those announced recently?
    Mr. Barber: The hon. Gentleman will have to wait for the announcement.
    Mr. Jeffrey Archer: Will my right hon. Friend abolish the payment of selective employment tax in respect of apprentices in the building industry in order to improve the Labour Government's disgraceful building record?
    Mr. Barber: I am always happy to consider proposals from my hon. Friend, and I will bear in mind what he says.

    Fringe Benefits (Taxation)
    Mr. Meacherasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what proposals he has for the inclusion of fringe benefits within the scope of income taxation; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: My right hon. Friend has no statement to make on this matter.
    Mr. Meacher: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the wide range of allowances and reliefs granted in respect of fringe benefits increasingly disproportionately benefits those in the higher income groups by the concession of very substantial tax-free
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    lump sums? What steps will he take to reconcile this with the principle of progressivity in income tax?
    Mr. Jenkin: I imagine that the hon. Gentleman has in mind approved pension schemes and the tax reliefs in connection with them. The Labour Government introduced comprehensive legislation this year, which we are now reviewing, which retained a large number of the advantages to which the hon. Gentleman refers.

    Industrial Investment
    Mr. Barnettasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what financial incentives he is proposing to increase industrial investment; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Barber: I announced on 27th October the Government's intention to place investment grants with a new system of depreciation allowances. The details are set out in the White Paper "Investment Incentives" (Cmnd. 4516).
    Mr. Barnett: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that in real money terms there is a direct cut in financial incentives to companies? What research did he carry out which led him to the conclusion that this cut would increase industrial investment?
    Mr. Barber: As the hon. Gentleman knows, and as he would be the first to admit, the simple fact is that the system of investment grants has not worked. Since investment grants were introduced in 1966 there has been a slower increase in investment in real terms than in the previous four years. The figures for the net effect on companies of the proposals which I laid before the House last week and of the reduction in corporation tax are set out in the table to the White Paper.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain how small and newly-started firms will be helped by the depreciation allowances?
    Mr. Barber: We do not believe in a system like the old investment grants system whereby assistance was given in the form of investment grants which was not related in any way to profitability.
    Mr. Hordern: Does my right hon. Friend agree that as manufacturing

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    investment increased by only 8 per cent. in the last four years the cash grant system cannot be considered to have been particularly effective but was extraordinarily wasteful?
    Mr. Barber: My hon. Friend is absolutely right.
    Mr. Tinn: Will the right hon. Gentleman comment on the statement by the Director of the North-East Development Council that under the new scheme firms in development areas will lose approximately 10 per cent.?
    Mr. Barber: In money terms, the regional differential which exists under the totality of the proposals—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I am answering. The regional differential, which is the result of the totality of the proposals I announced, will be as valuable in money terms as was the previous differential, but we believe that it will be far more effective.
    Mr. Michael Shaw: Will my right hon. Friend accept from me that the reaction which I have had from industry in the North-East shows that his proposals have been very well received and are regarded most favourably?
    Mr. Barber: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I believe that to be the case and that they will be far more effective. In any event, we shall have an opportunity to debate these matters tomorrow and the following day.
    Mr. Dell: Why does not the right hon. Gentleman answer the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett)? What research did he carry out into the effect of his new incentive scheme on our major exporting industries?
    Mr. Barber: I looked at the facts of the situation. I looked at what had happened before the system of investment grants was introduced, at what had happened during the four years when we had investment grants, what were the likely consequences of continuing with investment grants and of going over to the system of depreciation allowances which I announced or, alternatively, a system of investment allowances. A great deal of work was done before the decision was taken.

    Gross Domestic Product
    Mr. Sheldonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has now made of the increase in gross domestic product for the current year.
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer at what rate the increase in the gross national product is now running in the current year.
    Mr. Maurice Macmillan: The most recent figures of national income and expenditure show that the average estimate of gross domestic product at constant prices, after falling by about ¾ per cent. in the first quarter of 1970, rose by about 1¼ per cent. in the second quarter; this recovery is expected to continue in the second half of this year.
    Mr. Sheldon: But since the forecast in the Budget was that the gross domestic product would expand this year by about 3½ per cent., may I take it that that is still the Government's view? Is it the hon. Gentleman's intention to continue the excellent practice adopted by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins) of publishing these annual forecasts?
    Mr. Macmillan: If the hon. Gentleman will give me notice of the second part of his supplementary question, I will consider it. It is expected that the gross domestic product will continue to rise, but the signs of this improvement are still rather precarious and I should not like to hazard a more precise forecast than the one given in my original answer.

    National Economic Development Council
    Mr. Eadieasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what changes are proposed in the functions of the National Economic Development Council.
    Mr. Barber: At its meeting on 20th July the Council agreed that its future rôle should be as defined in its original terms of reference.
    Mr. Eadie: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the announcements made by his Department are causing a great deal of uncertainty in development areas about future economic activity? Will he make

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    a categoric statement today that the Government will not reduce financial aid to areas such as Scotland, as the policies which the Conservative Government pursued in the past created 136,000 unemployed in Scotland in 1963?
    Mr. Barber: The original Question was concerned with the functions of the National Economic Development Council. There is to be a meeting of that body tomorrow, which I shall be attending in the morning, and I have no doubt that these matters will be discussed. In answer to a previous Question, I dealt with the situation in the regions—in Scotland, the North-East and so on—and I explained why I believe that the value of the differential will be as great in the future as it has been in the past but will, in fact, be more effective.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what his original answer meant? He was saying what would be the future rôle of the National Economic Development Council, and that it would be defined in relation to its original terms of reference. Does this mean a change of rôle? What were the original terms of reference?
    Mr. Barber: I think there is a misunderstanding. What I said was that it was decided at the Council meeting on 20th July, before I became Chancellor of the Exchequer, that its future rôle should be as defined in its original terms of reference.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: What does that mean?
    Mr. Barber: It means this is what the Council decided. I am simply reporting to the House what the Council decided, which I understand to mean its original terms of reference. [Laughter.] I was not at the Council meeting. I am informed that this was agreed. This is not a matter for the Government; it is a matter for the three sides concerned, and they decided that the future rôle of the Council should be as defined in its original terms of reference. If the right hon. Gentleman would like me to, and if you will permit me to take up the time, Mr. Speaker, I will read out the original terms of reference which still apply.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: I do not wish to entice the right hon. Gentleman to take
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    up too much time of the House, but will he tell us to what extent this new definition of the rôle marks or does not mark a change from the practice which existed heretofore?
    Mr. Barber: The practice will be the same as heretofore. Since the N.E.D.C. was set up by the Conservative Government in 1962 and continued by the Labour Government during their period of office, it has proved extremely useful as a forum where economic policy can be discussed at the formative stage with both sides of industry, and this is its principal purpose.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: Is there, or is there not, a change as a result of the meeting on 20th July?
    Mr. Barber: That is the whole point of what I was saying.

    Savings
    Mr. Eadieasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he now proposes to stimulate national savings.
    Sir B. Rhys Williamsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he will take to promote savings.
    Mr. Waddingtonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will take steps to promote savings.
    Mr. Barber: I am considering a number of suggestions for bringing about a genuine increase in total saving.
    Mr. Eadie: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the package deal which he announced last week may very well affect national savings? Does he agree that industrial workers will be much worse off as a consequence of his package deal and that there may be a very great reduction in the amount of money put into factory savings schemes, or does he treat this kind of saving with contempt?
    Mr. Barber: I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman says. I do not believe that what I announced last week will have the consequences he has stated. On the contrary, I believe that the approach which I applied in my statement last week on behalf of Her Majesty's Government will stimulate savings rather than reduce them.
    Sir B. Rhys Williams: Has my right hon. Friend considered the advantage of requiring employers to pay higher percentage contributions into pension schemes for their employees, thereby automatically obtaining a switch from consumption into investment?
    Mr. Barber: I have not considered this proposal, but I will certainly take the suggestion into account in the review which we are now undertaking which covers the whole field of savings in order to try encourage an increase in personal savings generally and not only in national savings.
    Mr. Taverne: Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question which was put by my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie)? What greater freedom to save will there be for the average industrial worker who finds his net expenditure inevitably increased?
    Mr. Barber: I do not accept the basis on which the hon. Gentleman put his question. If the hon. and learned Gentleman will look at the record for the period when his Government were in office, he will find that the savings record was extremely bad compared with the 13 years of Conservative Government. One reason which his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Labour Government and his predecessor the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) were always giving was that if only we could get a higher level of personal savings we could reduce taxation. This is precisely what the previous Conservative Government did.
    Sir R. Thompson: After the total débâcle which overtook national savings in the last year of Labour Government, will my right hon. Friend resist all this claptrap from the other side?
    Mr. Barber: That is a very good point.

    Motor Industry
    Sir G. Nabarroasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer having regard to the level of home market sales of motorcars, what proposals he will now make to stimulate sales and keep down export prices for motorcars.
    Mr. Maurice Macmillan: My right hon. Friend's recent measures should help
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    to restore confidence to the whole of industry, including the motor industry. I do not think further measures are necessary at present. Home sales of motor cars have shown a significant improvement over last year.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Did not home sales of motor cars over the first eight months of this year show a decline of 92,000 compared with the equivalent period of the year before, which was in itself a very bad year? Are we to continue for ever the draconian measures announced in 1968 as the accompaniment to the devaluation of sterling?
    Mr. Macmillan: Little Neddy's forecast, agreed with the industry and the Government, shows that new registrations are getting very near the original required total set by the Little Neddy, and to this extent the outcome for this year should be reasonably satisfactory. There is also the question of penetration by foreign imports of the motor car industry home market, caused, as the hon. Gentleman knows, by many divergent factors, some of which are under the motor car industry's control. This is showing signs of lessening, leaving a larger share of the home market to the home producers if they can meet it.
    Mr. Bob Brown: Is not the Chief Secretary concerned that the recently increased petrol prices will have a further regressive effect, and will he not consider an overall reduction in vehicle excise duty? Will he also give consideration to a penal increase in excise duty on each car above two owned by any one individual?
    Mr. Macmillan: I am not sure that that degree of selectivity would be accepted on either side of the House. As for the other measures suggested, I am afraid the hon. Gentleman will have to await my right hon. Friend's Budget judgment later in the life of this Parliament.

    Hire-Purchase Restrictions
    Sir G. Nabarroasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will take steps to ease hire-purchase restrictions having regard to the state of trade, particularly for motorcars, new and secondhand, consumer durables, furnishings and other such commodities.
    Mr. Maurice Macmillan: We have no proposals for a general relaxation of hire purchase restrictions at the present time.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Will my right hon. Friend undertake to review the whole field? He used the word "general", but is it not wholly bad to put all consumer durables, soft furnishings and manufactured goods of all descriptions into the same straitjacket of hire-purchase restriction? Should not there be a much greater measure of selectivity than was shown by the last Government?
    Mr. Macmillan: My hon. Friend is raising here two rather large questions as to hire-purchase restrictions, whether they be industrial or for the control of credit and the money supply. There are signs of consumption rising in the latter half of this year, and I do not think it is appropriate to make any relaxation at the present time.
    Mr. Ashton: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that one of the reasons for the state of trade in the industry is that British Leyland, for exactly the same car, put up prices by 4 per cent. in March and by a further 4 per cent. in October, and that in six months this is a bigger increase than car workers have received and is one of the reasons that British motor cars are losing the market to foreign cars?
    Mr. Macmillan: Question Time is not necessarily the best moment to try to allocate blame for what is wrong with the motor car industry and causing a great deal of dislocation and difficulty.

    Petrol Tax (Remote Areas)
    Lieut.-Colonel Colin Mitchellasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will seek to introduce a graded petrol tax for the north-east of Scotland and other remote areas to bring about a more equitable system of sharing transport costs on a national basis.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: I have noted my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion.
    Lieut.-Colonel Colin Mitchell: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that transport costs are the single most crippling burden facing the remoter areas of Scotland, and what action does he propose to take about it?
    Mr. Jenkin: I certainly recognise that duties on petrols and DERV, which went
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    up from 2s. 9d. to 4s. 6d. under the last Administration, placed a special burden on remoter areas of the country, but I see very great difficulty in running a system that would involve differential rates for different parts of the country.

    Dock Strike
    Mr. Emeryasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is his estimate of the economic and financial effects to the economy of the dock strike.
    Mr. Barber: Any estimate of the economic and financial effects of the dock strike is necessarily uncertain, and complete figures are not yet available for a comprehensive assessment.
    Mr. Emery: When the comprehensive assessment is available, will my right hon. Friend see that it is published? Will he also attempt to have pointed out to those concerned with the strike the fact that the loss of exports, particularly in the motor industry, has had a very adverse long-term effect on many people in industry who are trying very hard to build up the exports necessary for the British economy?
    Mr. Barber: I would certainly consider the request of my hon. Friend. I agree with him that without doubt it will be shown that the dock strike damaged to some extent our exports and certainly for a time put up prices for the housewife.
    Mr. Roy Hughes: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the strike was forced on the trade unions by the 19th century attitude of the employers, who simply refused to sit down and negotiate a settlement? Will he further appreciate that the real answer to the problems of this vital industry remains public ownership?
    Mr. Barber: I totally disagree with the hon. Gentleman.

    Balance of Payments
    Mr. Sheldonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has now made of the balance of payments out-turn for the latest available date in 1970.
    Mr. Barber: Estimates for the third quarter will be published early next month, and I do not propose to anticipate them now.
    Mr. Sheldon: But whether or not the right hon. Gentleman gives the figures for the balance of payments outturn for this year, he surely must agree that it is not causing any concern internationally. Therefore, why does he not fulfil his party's promise for economic expansion and go for growth? If the figures we now have do not permit him to go for economic expansion, when will he be so convinced, or is this a matter of leaving it to others?
    Mr. Barber: I look forward to a good surplus on current account this year. So far as our policy for growth is concerned, I touched on this matter in what was necessarily an abbreviated comment at the beginning of my statement last week. I hope that tomorrow in my opening remarks in the debate I shall say something more about this matter.

    Farmers' Profits (Taxation)
    Mr. Brocklebank-Fowlerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will take steps to enable farmers to average profits for tax purposes.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Our studies suggest that this would create more problems that it would solve and I could not recommend it.
    Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the British farmer is particularly vulnerable to the vagaries of the British weather, which cause annual fluctuations in his income? Would he therefore consider extending to them the privilege already enjoyed by artists and authors?
    Mr. Jenkin: I do not think that solution would be appropriate. The extension to authors and artists is a very limited one and only allows the spreading of income in a class of work which takes over a year to produce. A farmer's work is by its nature annual, and therefore it would seem to me not to fall within that exception.
    Mr. Pardoe: Would the hon. Gentleman say who is going to face the problems he mentioned? If it is going to be the farmer who will face the problems of this proposed change, and since they want it, could not they be allowed to undertake these problems themselves?
    Mr. Jenkin: The problems would be faced by both the taxpayer and the Revenue. Until 1927–28 there was provision for spreading, but this gave rise to considerable hardship. The only way of dealing with this matter would be by opting in or out. It would seem to me that the administrative complexities involved would be immense.

    Supplementary Sickness and Unemployment Benefits (Taxation)
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the administrative cost of rendering supplementary sickness and unemployment benefit payments liable to tax.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: For sickness and unemployment benefit, the administrative cost would be about £15 million; I cannot make an estimate for supplementary benefits, but compared with the yield the cost of collection would be disproportionately high.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Would my hon. Friend look at this matter again? Surely when the potential yield exceeds £150 million a year, the time has come to look again at the unique exemption enjoyed by these forms of payment. Is it not unhealthy that some families should enjoy tax-free benefits which are in excess of taxable income from employment of other families?
    Mr. Jenkin: This occurred when the Labour Party introduced the National Insurance Scheme in the 1940s. These benefits were then taxable, but it was found that the administrative difficulties were such that in the end they had to be exempted from tax, as indeed were supplementary benefits under the 1966 Act. I assure my hon. Friend that we shall not lose sight of this proposal.
    Mr. W. T. Williams: If the administrative costs of collecting these untaxed benefits is so great, will not the Government consider the position in regard to old-age pensioners and extend this principle to them also? Would it not be more just to the old people so that they might enjoy a higher standard of living since among old people there is very real poverty?
    Mr. Jenkin: I do not want to be drawn into all the complexities of the hon.

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    Gentleman's question, but I take note of what he has said.

    Money Supply and Domestic Credit
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the increase in the money supply and the expansion of domestic credit, respectively, since Budget day.
    Mr. Barber: In the June quarter, the recorded increases in both the money supply, on the widest official definition, and domestic credit were about £700 million after seasonal adjustment. These figures are published in Financial Statistics.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Does it not appear that the growth in the money supply this summer has been such that in order to bring us back on the course laid down by the previous Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget Statement we would have to have a net contraction in money supply of something like £700 million between now and next April? Are instructions being given to the Governor of the Bank of England to achieve this?
    Mr. Barber: I do not think this is the sort of matter I ought to enter into in public. As has already been explained, and as has appeared from published statistics, the large rise in domestic credit and money supply in the June quarter, about which the Question was asked, followed a period of more than a year in which domestic credit had contracted sharply and money supply had grown very little. But it is also relevant to note that the rise in the quarter to which my hon. Friend is referring was due mainly to the sharp increases in private bank lending in the banking months ending mid-May and mid-July.
    Mr. Barnett: Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether his target for increase of money supply of 5 per cent. is the same 5 per cent. as was taken by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Roy Jenkins)? Secondly, does he agree with the reply given to me on Thursday last by the Prime Minister, that further tightening of the money squeeze would
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    not affect companies? If this is so, will he suggest who will be affected?
    Mr. Barber: I do not at Question Time propose to give a revised estimate of money supply for the whole year. The hon. Gentleman will have read of the decision concerning special deposits and will have seen the banking figures. He must draw his own conclusions.

    Self-Employed Persons (Retirement Annuities)
    Mr. Peter Reesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will take steps to encourage the growth of pension schemes for the self-employed.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: I assume that my hon. and learned Friend has in mind changes in the tax provisions relating to retirement annuities for the self-employed. This matter is under review.
    Mr. Rees: When my hon. Friend comes to review the position, will he take into account the effect of inflationary trends on the limits imposed by the 1956 Finance Act and that the self-employed are the only category of the community who are not permitted to commute their retirement annuities, unlike civil servants, for example?
    Mr. Jenkin: The answer to both parts of the question is, yes, Sir.

    Revenue (Collection and Management Cost)
    Mr. John Hallasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total cost incurred in collecting and managing the revenue, including costs properly attributable to the Inland Revenue but charged out of Votes of other Departments, for the years 1958, 1959, 1968 and 1969, expressed both in sterling and as a percentage of revenue collected.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Figures for calendar years are not available; for the years ending 31st March, 1959, 1960, 1969 and 1970 the costs of collecting the Inland Revenue duties were £46·4 million, £49·4 million, £94·9 million and £103·9 million, or 1·54 per cent., 1·60 per cent., 1·45 per cent. and 1·39 per cent. of the net revenue.
    Mr. Hall: Does my hon. Friend agree that those figures are considerably higher than those contained in the last annual

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    report of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue? If that is so, why were not the true figures disclosed in that report? Secondly, is my hon. Friend satisfied that these considerable increases in cost are fully justified?
    Mr. Jenkin: On the first part of my hon. Friend's Question, he will be aware that the Inland Revenue recently was advised by a Committee of this House to change these figures from gross to net receipts—in other words, receipts after repayments. That accounts for the change to which he has drawn attention.
    On the second part of his Question, this point was exhaustively examined by the Estimates Committee, which accepted that the costs per head of staff, the shortening of Civil Service working hours and the increasing complexity of the work which tax officers have to do have largely accounted for the trends to which my hon. Friend has drawn attention.

    Capital Gains Tax
    Mr. Dixonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will amalgamate the rates for short-term and long-term capital gains tax.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Both the tax on short-term gains and the long-term capital gains tax are being examined as part of our review of the tax system. I cannot say more than this at present.

    Company Dividends
    Mr. Dixonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will end fiscal discrimination against companies paying dividends to their shareholders.
    Mr. Maurice Macmillan: We have made clear our intention to reform corporation tax so as to reduce the bias against distributions.
    Mr. Dixon: Does my hon. Friend agree that if this present discrimination were abolished it would remove an unfair advantage from unprofitable companies which reinvest their shareholders' money at a poor rate of return, and would allow their shareholders to put their money into something better?
    Mr. Macmillan: One of the main purposes of this policy would be to secure
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    the most effective as well as a high rate of investment.

    Earnings and Savings (Taxation)
    Mr. Dykesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will now consider steps to harmonise the rates and incidence of taxation on incomes from earnings and savings.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: I have noted my hon. Friend's views.
    Mr. Dykes: Does my hon. Friend agree that this matter is extremely urgent in terms of contributing a greater incentive to savings, the lack of which is one of the root causes of our economic problems, and that the difference between so-called earned and unearned income is unnecessarily penal, illogical and anachronistic?
    Mr. Jenkin: I can go one better. The words "unearned income" hardly ever escape the lips of Treasury Ministers, and even our officials are getting rather good at talking about "investment income". I am sure that my hon. Friend would not expect me to comment further on what he has said.

    Retired Persons (Taxation)
    Mr. Dykesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, within the general context of a programme of reduced taxes on incomes, he will now consider measures to alleviate the tax burden of retired people.
    Mr. Maurice Macmillan: I have noted my hon. Friend's suggestion.
    Mr. Dykes: Does my hon. Friend agree that in relation to retired people two propositions stand out from the experience of recent years: first, that retired people's living standards have not kept pace with those of the rest of the community and in some cases have fallen; and, secondly, irrespective of other measures to increase pensions, a different rate of taxation on their first or second incomes would be a great boost to retired people?
    Mr. Macmillan: I have taken note of the points made by my hon. Friend, for which I am grateful. But he will appreciate that I cannot discuss possible tax changes at this stage.

    Income Returns (Confidentiality)
    Mr. Peter Reesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the confidential nature of all information contained in returns of income made by taxpayers, he will give an assurance that such information will not be used as the basis of published statistics.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: No, Sir. But I can assure my hon. Friend that no information about the affairs of any individual taxpayer can be derived from the published statistics.
    Mr. Rees: Will my hon. Friend look again at the oath taken by members of the Inland Revenue, because it is widely thought that that oath would prevent their giving any information contained in a taxpayer's return to form the basis of published statistics? Does my hon. Friend appreciate that the feeling that taxpayers' confidential information is disclosed is likely to impair cordial relations between taxpayers and their inspectors?
    Mr. Jenkin: I shall certainly look at the form to which my hon. Friend refers. However, the Inland Revenue has been publishing statistics based on tax returns for well over 100 years, and it would be inordinately expensive to collect the same statistics twice over in different forms.

  TAXATION AND BENEFIT PAYMENTS (DEPARTMENTAL ORGANISATION)
  Sir B. Rhys Williamsasked the Prime Minister if he will take steps to amalgamate the sections of the Inland Revenue Department dealing with direct taxation of individuals with the sections of the Department of Health and Social Security dealing with direct payment of benefits to individuals.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Edward Heath): I have no current plans for such changes.
  Sir B. Rhys Williams: Will my right hon. Friend ensure that there is complete harmonisation of the plans of these Departments in investment in computers and the free exchange of information between them about individual persons' records?
  The Prime Minister: I shall have to consider carefully the implications of that Question. We all recognise the care and attention which my hon. Friend has given to this problem of reducing the administrative burden of dealing with different aspects of financial policy affecting the individual. But I am sure that he recognises, as we do, the problems involved.
  Mr. Grimond: Will the Prime Minister look at the scheme devised by his hon. Friend's mother in the heyday of the family when they were Liberals? It is a most ingenious scheme for what amounts to a reverse income tax and setting off social payments against direct tax?
  The Prime Minister: I recall doing so at the time. However, that scheme has been superseded by a more refined one now that my hon. Friend is a Conservative.
  Mr. Peter Archer: Since the effect of the proposals announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer last week will be to subject more people to many more means tests, would a form of negative income tax be a way of alleviating both administrative trouble and human hardship?
  The Prime Minister: We have been examining the question of a negative income tax, and preliminary studies have been completed. We are now considering the case for further studies.

  NORTHERN IRELAND (VISIT)
  Q.2. Mr. McNamaraasked the Prime Minister when he next hopes to pay an official visit to Northern Ireland.
  The Prime Minister: I have no plans to do so at present, Sir.
  Mr. McNamara: Might I encourage the Prime Minister, when he goes there or when his right hon. Friend discusses matters with the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, to give urgent consideration to the scheme now mooted for proportional representation and multiple constituencies in order to overcome extremism from both factions and get more stable government?
  The Prime Minister: The method of election is a matter for the Northern Ireland Government. I understand that no decision has been reached on the matter.
  Mr. Stratton Mills: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is widespread sympathy for the troops who this weekend faced new weapons in the form of automatic weapons as well as gelignite bombs? Can we have any further details about what General Freeland referred to as the outside influences which were causing this trouble?
  The Prime Minister: The whole House condemns the use of these weapons. The weapons and those who use them have been condemned by people of all beliefs in all parts of Northern Ireland. I am sure that, like me, hon. Members warmly welcome that. As for the details for which he asks, perhaps my hon. Friend will address his Question to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: May I first associate this side of the House with what the Prime Minister has said about weapons? With regard to my hon. Friend's suggestion in relation to proportional representation, may I remind the Prime Minister that, in addition to this being a matter for the Government in Stormont, it is well within the terms of reference of the Constitutional Commission? To the right hon. Gentleman's knowledge, has the Constitutional Commission proposals of that kind before it?
  The Prime Minister: I have no knowledge of the proposals which the Constitutional Commission is considering, and it has not reported to me in any way. As for its terms of reference, I also have no doubt that it would be open to the Commission to consider this point.
  Mr. St. John-Stevas: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that it is the policy of the Government to continue to give backing and, where necessary, encouragement to the Stormont Government in their efforts to achieve social justice for everyone in Northern Ireland?
  The Prime Minister: From the beginning of this Government we have given them our full backing. We will continue to do so.

  NATIONAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT COUNCIL
  Mr. John Fraserasked the Prime Minister when he next proposes to take the chair at the National Economic Development Council.
  The Prime Minister: I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, South (Mr. Ashley) on 29th October.—[Vol. 805, c. 97.]
  Mr. Fraser: When the Prime Minister next takes the chair, will he deliver to N.E.D.C. a paper reconciling his statements made before the election about reducing public and private sector prices with the performance since then of public and private sector prices, like petrol, and say whether his statements made shortly before 18th June were based on faith, hope or mendacity?
  The Prime Minister: The N.E.D.C. is aware of the action which the Government took at the beginning on coal prices and Post Office charges. The N.E.D.C. is also well aware, as I know from the two occasions on which I have presided over it, of the impact on prices of inflationary wage increases.
  Mr. Moyle: Will the Prime Minister confirm that it will be pointless the National Economic Development Council discussing the problems of the fishing industry, as the Common Market countries have decided their fishing policy without taking into account the views of Her Majesty's Government? Is the right hon. Gentleman looking forward to a further diminution of the agenda of the N.E.D.C. as the years go by by a similar process? Is this what he means by less government?
  The Prime Minister: I admire the hon. Gentleman's ingenuity in getting Common Market fishing policy in on his question about the N.E.D.C. It has not discussed this subject and, as far as I know, it has no intention of doing so.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: Referring to the right hon. Gentleman's previous answer, it was clear last Tuesday that the Chancellor of the Exchequer regarded the Prime Minister as having gone back on

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  his statement of 16th June—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—Oh, yes—and gave reasons for going back on it. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us to which view he subscribes? Is he still carrying out that statement or resting on the Chancellor's excuses for not carrying it out?
  The Prime Minister: The Chancellor in no way regarded Her Majesty's Government as having gone back on that statement. We said that we would deal directly with public sector prices, and where we thought it justifiable to do so, and after referring them to the consumer councils—[interruption.]—we have done so.
  As to taxation policy, we have already in four months started to undo the work of the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and hon. Friends.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: Did the right hon. Gentleman, on 16th June, say or not say that he would take action at a stroke to reduce prices? Has he done so?
  The Prime Minister: I have never used the words "at a stroke"—
  Hon. Members: Oh.
  Mr. Jay: Will the Prime Minister say whether the N.E.D.C. is still operating precisely as it did under the previous Government?
  The Prime Minister: From the point of view of organisation, the Chancellor of the Exchequer is now the Chairman and I take the chair from time to time when it is thought appropriate to do so; whereas, under the last Administration, the then Prime Minister, I think in 1967, decided to take the chair permanently and the Chancellor of the Exchequer would sometimes deputise. That is the organisational change.

  EXCHANGE RATES
  Mr. Barnettasked the Prime Minister if he will seek to convene a conference of Prime Ministers of Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries to consider the question of exchange rates.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Barnett: Does the Prime Minister accept that, as far as the Common Market countries are concerned, the Werner plan on exchange rates for most is no more than a pious hope? In these circumstances, will he confirm that he holds himself free to adjust our exchange rates whether we go in or stay out of the Common Market?
  The Prime Minister: There is a difference between adjusting exchange rates between the Common Market and the dollar world and adjusting exchange rates within the Common Market itself. If we become a member of the Common Market we would have to deal with the situation which arose at that time concerning exchange rates.

  DISABLED PERSONS (MINISTERIAL CO-ORDINATION)
  Mr. Ashleyasked the Prime Minister what representations he has received about the co-ordination of Ministers with responsibilities for the disabled; and what replies he has sent.
  The Prime Minister: None, Sir.
  Mr. Ashley: That is all the more reason for asking whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that the Ministerial responsibility for disabled people and information about the resources for disabled people needs clarification.
  Will the Prime Minister, therefore, consider two suggestions: first, to establish a Cabinet Committee to co-ordinate the activities of the various Ministers concerned with the disabled; and, secondly, to issue a booklet with clear and concise details about the various facilities provided for the disabled by all the relevant Acts of Parliament?
  The Prime Minister: Concerning the central Government, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the means of co-ordination already exist between Departments roughly on the lines which he has mentioned. As he knows, they are never publicly described in detail.
  Concerning the individual disabled, what they require, and what the hon. Gentleman has in mind, is information dealing with their own localities. This will be obligatory on the local authorities under Section 1 of the Act with which

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  the hon. Gentleman was so closely associated. The order instructing local authorities to provide this information will be made shortly after 1st April next. I think that that will meet the hon. Gentleman's request.
  Mr. William Hamilton: Will the Prime Minister give an assurance that the Government will provide the necessary finance to make this Act, to which my hon. Friend made a notable contribution in the last Parliament, fully effective?
  The Prime Minister: I cannot give a blanket undertaking like that. This matter must be discussed in the general context of local authority grants and finance.

  NORTHERN REGION
  Mr. Milneasked the Prime Minister what proposals he has for dealing with the problems of the Northern Region, and if he will give consideration to the appointment of a Minister for the Northern Region with an office based in Newcastle.
  The Prime Minister: We announced on 27th October measures to help all the development areas, including further substantial assistance under the Local Employment Acts. I do not propose to appoint Ministers for the Regions of England.
  Mr. Milne: Is the Prime Minister aware that the replies of his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer earlier today have done nothing to allay the fears of those in the North-East about the future under this Government?
  Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware that claims were made during the election that the appointment of a Minister for the North-East in 1963 by a Conservative Government was the means of improving the situation? That is not necessarily accepted. But why is the Prime Minister going back on his earlier statements? Why cannot we have a Minister for the North-East to deal with the pressing problems that confront us?
  The Prime Minister: My noble Friend Lord Hailsham was appointed Minister for the North-East in 1963 with the explicit instruction to produce a plan for dealing with the problems of the North-
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  East. When he had completed that plan he relinquished the position, and it became the responsibility of the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. The Minister for the North under the last Administration had no executive powers to deal with the North-East as such. I believe that the best way to deal with a particular area is through the Minister responsible for the country as a whole, because he has power to take executive action.
  Dame Irene Ward: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that we have two very delightful north country Members in the Cabinet? Does he not think that it would be rather a good idea if one of these days we could have a special debate and those two delightful and active Members could give us a full report of what they have done inside the Cabinet to help the North-East?
  The Prime Minister: I am sure that nothing would give my colleagues greater pleasure than the opportunity of telling my hon. Friend what they have been up to in the Cabinet. But I should also point out that so far in the short life of this Government there have been visits from 21 Ministers to the North-East and the northern part of England. I think, therefore, that my hon. Friend has little to complain about in that respect.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: From the information that he has been given about the number of firms which were intending to establish new ventures or factory extensions in the area, since the decision to end investment grants and their replacement by the other measures listed by the Chancellor, which are much less attractive to a new firm with no profits behind it, how many have indicated to the right hon. Gentleman or to his colleagues that they are not now proposing to go forward in the Northern Region and other development areas?
  The Prime Minister: I have no information to that effect. But I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman's view that the measures are a less attractive incentive to firms to go to the development areas. Taking into account that they will get free depreciation again and indefinite building allowances, that these will extend to the service as well as to the manufacturing industries, that they will get

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  assistance under the Local Employment Acts, and also that we are continuing the regional employment premium until the date settled by the right hon. Gentleman—namely, 1974—I do not believe the right hon. Gentleman's allegation is justifiable.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: May we take it that the Government had at their disposal, before making these decisions, detailed information as to the discounted value of the new incentives to firms going to the development areas in manufacturing industry compared with the old incentives? Will the Prime Minister assure us—I do not ask him to give it now—that he will make this information available to the House if we question the Government?
  The Prime Minister: When we were considering the best inducements to offer people to go to the development areas we took into account all the information that was available to us. [An HON. MEMBER: "Publish it."] I must examine whether that can be published. The former Chancellor of the Exchequer knows that often there are figures which the Government are not at liberty to publish, but we have adapted the system to give what we think will be the best inducements to firms to expand in the development areas.
  Mr. Emery: Will my right hon. Friend assure us that he does not intend to give more special treatment to the North-East than to other development areas, particularly the South-West, which also deserves some consideration? In dealing with that region, will my right hon. Friend realise that the service aspect is of great assistance, and will he look into the possibility of having this applied to the hotel industry, which at the moment does not benefit to the same extent.
  The Prime Minister: The arrangements that we have announced apply to all the development areas; so my hon. Friend's request in that respect is met. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced that he is considering a plan for dealing specifically with hotels.
  Mr. Bagier: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the development districts in the North-East and Northern Region are worse off than those in any other region? Will he follow the example
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  of the previous Government and appoint a senior Minister to co-ordinate efforts to deal with the serious problem in those areas? Does he recall that the main thing for which his noble Friend Lord Hailsham was remembered was his attempting to appear in the North-East disguised in a cloth cap, but he did not fool anyone?
  The Prime Minister: I am sure that all hon. Members for the North-East will, in all fairness, recognise that Lord Hailsham's plan was the basis for the development of the North-East through both Administrations in the last seven years.
  Mr. Roy Jenkins: There is certain information which the Government cannot publish, but surely the right hon. Gentleman is not trying to say that this would apply to a general provision, not related to individual firms, about the discounted value of the incentives now offered to manufacturing industry and those previously offered? Did he have this information available before him when he took the decision? If so, is he going to let the House know what it is?
  The Prime Minister: I have said that I am prepared to examine what information can be published in this respect.

HOUSING FINANCE
The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Peter Walker): Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement on some of the broad decisions of principle on the basis of which we propose to change the structure of housing finance.
There are a multitude of disadvantages with the present system. Ratepayers and taxpayers are being faced with a large and rapidly growing subsidy bill. The subsidies are not distributed so as to remedy the housing problems of the worst areas. The rents paid by tenants are related neither to the value and quality of their accommodation, nor to their capacity to pay. The help available to the poorer tenant is incomplete and haphazard. The present system of rent control in the private sector is creating new slums at the very time when local authorities are replacing existing slums with new houses.

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My right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales and I have worked out a strategy for reform, but before our plans can be perfected we will need to consult the local authorities and other interested parties.
We intend to introduce a pattern of rents which will remove the present artificial distinctions and inequalities between the private and public rented sectors and within each of them.
The fair rent principle has become generally recognised as an equitable basis of determining rent structures. I am glad to pay tribute to the party opposite for introducing this principle. We now intend to take the natural step of extending it within the private sector. We intend to see that controlled tenancies will progress more rapidly into the fair rent system. We will thus prevent thousands of dwellings from sinking into decay and encourage the improvement and repair of these properties.
At the same time we shall apply the fair rent principle to local authority dwellings in England and Wales over a period. There will be a limit to the average increase of rent in any one year.
In Scotland my right hon. Friend has concluded that, because of the different nature and the relative number of privately and publicly rented houses, the fair rent formula cannot be applied at present to council houses. However, in consulting the Scottish local authority associations he will be making proposals which for the next few years will have broadly the same financial effects as those which I have outlined for England and Wales, and will provide for the same rate of progression in rents. The aim will be to balance housing revenue accounts by the end of this period. My right hon. Friend will consider the possibility of moving later to the same rent basis in Scotland as in England and Wales.
In order to see that tenants are not prevented from occupying accommodation suited to their needs because of their inability to afford the rent we will introduce a comprehensive system of rent rebates and allowances for all of those in need. Any tenant of unfurnished accommodation who cannot afford to meet the full new rent will be able to obtain financial help which will have proper regard to his income and family commitments.
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Until now rent rebates have only been available to council tenants where the local authority has operated a rebate scheme. Under the Government proposals rent rebates will be available for the tenants of all local authorities. Under the previous system of subsidies, the system which will now be entirely recast, only one-seventh of the subsidies went into rent rebates. This Government intend to see by statute that subsidies from public funds will be directed towards those people who need them.
In spite of the fact that the 1968 Family Expenditure Survey disclosed that a far higher proportion of households in the private unfurnished sector had incomes below £1,000 per annum than in the public sector, no form of rent rebate has been available to private tenants. It is the Government's intention to see that, in future, help is given to these tenants by means of an entirely new system of rent allowances for those tenants who need them—allowances that will be as generous as the rebates available in the local authority sector. Subject to discussions with their associations, we contemplate that the local authorities will operate the scheme and that the Exchequer will meet the greater part of the cost.
There are two further major changes we intend to make in the subsidy system. The Government do not consider that the present subsidy system for slum clearance is adequate to meet the problem and we intend to take special steps to relieve the high cost of slum clearance.
Secondly, in those areas where there is serious overcrowding new building is often exceptionally costly. It is therefore our intention to give special assistance to those authorities who need it to meet the high cost of tackling the related problems of overcrowding and obsolescence.
We intend to continue a major drive for the improvement and rehabilitation of older houses.
A reform on these lines will bring the full weight of Government assistance to bear on the worst areas of the housing problem. It will mean that those local authorities with serious housing problems will be better placed to solve them speedily. It will distribute subsidies equitably where they are needed and in doing so substantially reduce a growing

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burden which has become wholly indefensible. It will give the citizen more genuine responsibility in choosing the housing he needs. In short, it will create the conditions in which we can pursue a housing policy which is rational, fair and compassionate.
Mr. Crosland: That is in many ways a surprisingly vague statement, although much of it tends in an obviously reactionary direction. In particular, it is extraordinary for the Minister to make a statement about housing subsidies without giving any idea of the amount by which they are to be cut. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in his statement referred to cutting housing subsidies by between £100 million and £200 million in 1974–75. What is the right hon. Gentleman's intention in this respect, and by how much does he expect his cut to raise council house rents—by 50 per cent., 70 per cent. or 100 per cent.? Will there, on top of that, be a further increase when the Government refuse to extend the 1969 Act controlling rent increases and when no doubt on top of everything else they cut the rate support grant?
We recall the sharp fall in council house building between 1952 and 1963. We recall the right hon. Gentleman's lectures to Tory councils a year ago not to be too enthusiastic about council house building. Does he think that the reduced subsidy, whatever the figure is, will be adequate to pay for comprehensive rent rebate schemes to which he has referred, and also for slum clearance, for urban renewal, and for special high cost problems of places like London? The answer is that it will not, but which one will take the rap?
The previous Government did a great deal, through the option mortgage scheme, to help owner-occupiers and we all wish to do—[Interruption.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite seem not to be aware that last year, for the first time in our history, 50 per cent. of the houses in this country were owner-occupied.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the tax relief to the owner-occupier goes contrary to his principle of capacity to pay? It is not only regressive, but also indiscriminate. Will the right hon. Gentleman be careful that he does not
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cut council house subsidies to the point where an undesirable and excessive gap opens up between the help given to owner-occupiers and that given to council house tenants?
Lastly, we shall want to examine the question of the housing allowance for the private tenant when we have more information to make sure that this is not a simple subsidy to the bad landlord or the profiteering landlord at a time when subsidies are being cut to councils with the most appalling housing problems. Will not this once again add a large number of people to those who are already subject to means tests, and will the Minister tell us now how many of our fellow citizens are subject to how many separate rebates and means tests? Is this process to continue indefinitely—[Interruption.] Is this process of creating two nations to continue indefinitely under a Government pledged to create one nation?
Mr. Walker: On the question of our proposals being reactionary, it ill becomes a Government that put 400,000 tenancies over to the fair rents principle without any rebate scheme at all to call this a reactionary Measure. I would point out that under the last Government there were 8 million tenants living in unfurnished accommodation, of whom only 4 million had a possibility of obtaining rent rebates. Under our proposals all 8 million will be able to have the advantages of a rent rebate scheme.
As for the allegation of a means test, once again it ill becomes a Government that sent round a circular to local authorities asking them to use their subsidies for rent rebate schemes now to condemn that principle. The last Government did just that. They also introduced a rate rebate scheme on the same principle.
As for the effects of the measure on council house building, I believe it will result in a substantial increase in council house building in those areas in need, because whereas up until this moment, for example, the worst areas of London such as the Inner London boroughs have not had the financial help needed for the high cost of slum clearance and of new buildings, that cost will be met as a result of our proposals. Nor will they be restricted as they have been in the past by knowing that the new houses that they build will be let at rents that the

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tenants cannot afford, because under the rent rebate scheme they will be able to afford them. The results of these proposals will be a very substantial increase in the aid given to the worst housing areas in this country.
As for the question of the total amount of money saved, I would point out that last year—1969–70—the total housing subsidy bill was £190 million. On the old system it would have risen, by 1975–6, to £330 million. Even if, after negotiations with local authorities, there were a cut of £100 million in the 1975–6 figures, we should still be spending £40 million more than was spent last year on housing subsidies, the difference being that it will all be going to those who need it instead of being given indiscriminately.
On the question of vagueness of the total figure, this arises because we intend to discuss the question in detail with local authorities, who are the main housing authorities concerned. The details of their schemes will be discussed with them.
As for owner-occupation, this Government have already encouraged sales of local authority houses and new town houses for owner-occupation, and one of the proposals that I intend to bring into the new legislation will be a proposal that in addition to local authorities being able to help in the removal expenses of tenants wishing to go in for owner-occupation we shall include legal expenses in these proposals.
Mr. Sandys: Is my right hon. Friend aware that most objective and fair-minded people will greet his announcement as a long overdue measure of social justice?
Mr. Crosland: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my first and central question, which is by how much he proposes to cut the subsidies and thence by how much rents will rise. He says, quite reasonably, that he wants to start discussions with local authorities, but he must have some idea in his mind about the cut in subsidies and the consequent likely increase in rents. Broadly, is it one-third, one-half, or 100 per cent.?
Mr. Walker: This will vary from one locality to another. There are completely different regional patterns and it would be wholly deceptive of me to produce a figure of that type.
Sir D. Renton: I greatly welcome this early fulfilment of our election pledge and the manner in which it will be operated, namely, by giving help to those most in need. Is my right hon. Friend aware that towns with schemes under the Town Development Act, such as Huntingdon and St. Neots, are having acute financial problems and have high rents and rates? In his further consideration with local authorities, will he do what he can to help such towns with these problems?
Mr. Walker: We shall certainly have very full discussions with local authorities and no doubt problems such as this will emerge in those talks.
Mr. Frank Allaun: Is not the real point of the announcement the fact that the Minister is not redistributing subsidies; he is slashing them. Secondly, as one owner-occupier to another, may I ask him whether he accepts, on Government figures, that owner-occupiers, quite rightly, receive £215 million a year in subsidies, which is far more than council house tenants do? Does he feel no shame in hitting those who need help most? Does he not agree that the pathetic queues on the council house registers will have their hopes completely destroyed, because council house building will come to a stop except for the disabled and the pensioners?
Mr. Walker: I am surprised at the hon. Gentleman's attitude, because I can imagine few towns that will benefit more from these proposals than Salford. I have heard the hon. Member complain that rents of new council houses in Salford are beyond the means of the tenant. That will no longer be the case. I have also heard him complain that people living in accommodation that was transferred to the fair rents scheme under the previous Government could not afford the consequent increases. They will be helped by this legislation.
Salford will get more for slum clearance, more for the high cost of clearance, and for rebates in respect of all those tenants who want to afford the increased rents.
As for comparison with owner-occupiers, this Government have no intention of reducing the tax rebates for owner-occupiers. I would point out that the council house tenant will have an

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advantage over the owner-occupier, first, because, unlike the owner-occupier, he does not have to pay part of the capital cost of building before he moves in; secondly, the owner-occupier does not have available to him any form of rebate scheme and, thirdly, if tenants with incomes that place them outside rebate schemes consider that owner-occupation is much preferable, this Government have allowed them to buy their council houses at a 20 per cent. discount.
Earl of Dalkeith: I welcome my right hon. Friend's statement so far as it goes, but does he not agree that it is desirable to stimulate the building industry, preferably by the abolition of S.E.T., at an early opportunity, bearing in mind that that would not cost so much as the huge sums of money being paid in terms of unemployment pay for those in the construction industry? Will he take note of the special needs of Scotland and stimulate home ownership there, in view of the fact that Scotland has the lowest proportion of home ownership of any European country this side of the Iron Curtain?
Mr. Walker: The question of S.E.T. is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. We have already introduced measures to assist the building industry, such as the removal of the import deposit scheme on timber and doing away with the betterment levy. On the need to increase the proportion of home ownership in Scotland, I agree with my hon. Friend.
Mr. Pardoe: Would the Secretary of State realise that many hon. Members in all political parties, while wishing to reserve their position on the details of this scheme, will welcome many of his intentions as expressed this afternoon? However, can he direct his attention to the point about local authorities? He said that he contemplates that local authorities will operate the rebate scheme. Does that mean that he contemplates that they will operate it in the private as well as the public sector? Does he realise that there are many objections in a moral sense by people involved and by local authorities themselves to them operating any means test at all? Would it not be better to put it on the Exchequer or the Supplementary Benefits Commission officers?
Mr. Walker: We gave thorough consideration to this point. The reason that we rejected the hon. Member's suggestion—I understand the reasons for it—is, first, that they do already operate rent rebate and rate rebate schemes in the local authority sector. We are trying to get them to organise housing advisory services, where all this information will be available. But also, one of the most important tasks of local authorities is properly to analyse the housing problem in their localities and my financial arrangements will enable them to solve those housing problems when properly analysed. We are fitting into a number of major reports on this subject, which suggests that local authorities should deal with the total housing problem instead of just fragmentation of it. It is on that basis that I have pursued this course.
Mr. Gummer: How far does my right hon. Friend think that his statement will help the voluntary housing movement?
Mr. Walker: I am very anxious to stimulate the activities of the voluntary housing movement; where it has been in difficulty through not being able to obtain rent rebates in this sector, my plan will be of great importance to that sector.
Mr. Ross: My right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) suggested that the statement was vague. It is much more vague for those in Scotland. Has the right hon. Gentleman any indication or idea as to when the Secretary of State for Scotland will tell us anything at all about any of these matters that relate to Scotland? Am I right in assuming that the fact that there will be more rapid progress into fair rents means, first, that rents are going up more speedily than expected and will cover many more privately-tenanted houses, and, second, that although the principle of fair rents will not apply to local authority houses, for Scotland, since the words were that the same rate of progress in local rents will be expected, this will mean increased rents for private property as well as that of local authorities? Is that the case? The problems of Glasgow are being solved mainly outside Glasgow by the new towns and also by the Scottish Special Housing Association. To what extent, there too, will there be higher rents and to what exent can this lead to any solution of the problems within

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Glasgow? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell me honestly whether he thinks that we will get more houses—and this year it will be a higher record than ever of housing building in Scotland—than before?
Mr. Walker: On the first point of the rent increases in the private sector, these will vary because the movement from control to fair rents and those remaining in the controlled sector will depend on the assessment of the rent officers. I had discussions with the presidents and vice-presidents of the rent assessment panels and discovered from the cases that they have taken already that this can result, in bad slum property, in very low rents, and that they have known rents as low as 2s. 6d. a week for bad property. Therefore, in terms of this movement, some will go up and some down in the remainder of the controlled sector—
Mr. Ross: In Scotland?
Mr. Walker: I am talking about Scotland—[Interruption.] I am talking about the whole of the country. So far as tenants of these houses are concerned, whereas previously in Scotland no tenant has had the availability of a rent rebate scheme, they will now all have it. In terms of the number of houses built, I believe that these proposals will result in many more houses being built in those areas of bad housing and housing need.
Mr. Allason: I welcome this notice of a very notable reform in housing, but would my right hon. Friend be more explicit about the situation of houses in bad repair? Is it likely that their rents will increase as a result of this measure, or will they remain about the same?
Mr. Walker: I am satisfied from my discussions with the presidents and vice-presidents of the rent assessment panel that houses in bad repair will be granted very low rents indeed.
Mr. Silverman: The Secretary of State concentrated on the sugar on the pill, but we have heard little about the contents of the pill itself. Would he be a little more forthcoming? How does he propose to save on housing subsidies, and will it be £100 million to £200 million a year in 1974? Without that basic information, what he is telling us is almost meaningless. Second, does his statement
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today, in conjunction with the White Paper, mean that every council tenant will have to submit to an increase in rent unless he qualifies for or submits to a means test? Third, with regard to the private sector, again apart from those who qualify for a rebate under his scheme—and no one knows how that will work: there will be a great deal of difficulty with regard to that—will he say whether every other tenant by this rapid transfer from control, at any rate in the controlled sector of the private sector, will again have to submit to an increased rent?
Mr. Walker: As I said earlier, for the year 1975–76, one could show a £100 million saving on the present estimates and still be spending £40 million a year more than in 1969–70, the difference being that the whole of the £230 million would then be going to those people who need help. As for the means test point, I would point out that the previous Government circulated local authorities urging them to provide rent rebate schemes and to spend their housing subsidy on providing rent rebate schemes, but this Government, unlike the last, intend to see that this happens.
Mr. Tebbit: Does my right hon. Friend's statement apply in its entirety to the new towns?
Mr. Walker: Yes, it does. Of course, linked with our policy on the new towns was my announcement in a circular last week that tenants in the new towns would in future be able to purchase their houses on a 20 per cent. discount on market price.
Mr. Blenkinsop: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the heavy increases in rents that this statement envisages will mean that many workers on average wages will be expected to pay something like 30 per cent. of their earnings? Under his kind of provision, will he not also provide for a steady reduction in the standard of building?
Mr. Walker: The figure of 30 per cent. is totally untrue—[HON. MEMBERS: "What is it?"] This will vary from one locality to another, but 30 per cent. is an absurd exaggeration and not a reality. One will have a situation in which the rent rebate scheme will enable people of

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average industrial earnings not to pay too high a rent.
Sir D. Walker-Smith: In view of the Government's progressive policy of expanding the operation of the fair rent principle, would my right hon. Friend think it timely and appropriate to make a report by White Paper or otherwise as may be convenient, on the five-year operation of the fair rent principle, with particular reference to the extent to which people have been able to agree at all between themselves or with the help of the rent officer on fair rents without the necessity of adjudication by rent assessment committees?
Mr. Walker: I will consider my right hon. and learned Friend's suggestion. Perhaps one of the indications that the system has worked well is that the last Government decided last year to put 400,000 more tenants under the system.
Mr. Harold Wilson: I think that the right hon. Gentleman said that there will be a limit on increases in rents each year. He will recall, I think, voting against our Bill to impose that limit when we were in office. We welcome his conversion. Will he maintain the same limit that we maintained—namely, an average of 7s. 6d. and a maximum in any individual case of 10s? Further, since he now regards my hon. Friend's estimate of a 30 per cent. increase in council house rents as exaggerated, will he give an assurance that council house rents will not rise by that amount in the next four years?
Mr. Walker: I welcome the former Prime Minister's interest in my conversion. I have also been converted to the 1965 Rent Act and the fair rent principle, so there is a double conversion for me. As to the question of the degree of the increase, the original suggestion was not that there would be a 30 per cent. increase; it was that 30 per cent. of the income of the average worker would be taken. This I consider to be exaggerated. As to the limits of increase in any one year, the Leader of the Opposition will understand that I want to discuss the figure with the local authorities, but I certainly intend to see that it will be a reasonable limit.
Mr. Maddan: Would my right hon. Friend refrain from following hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite into a campaign about bad and profiteering landlords? Will he remember that the vast majority of landlords are small individuals—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—they are small men—[HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."]—owning one or two houses? Will he therefore encourage them, for the benefit of themselves and their tenants, to take the maximum advantage of the repair grant available?
Mr. Walker: On the question of the nature of the landlords, it was the Labour Minister of Housing who said that 60 per cent. of landlords owned one house only and 40 per cent. of that figure were old-age pensioners. There is obviously validity in my hon. Friend's comments. I will certainly do everything I can to encourage the maximum use of improvement grants.
Mr. Robert Hughes: Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how long a period it is envisaged will occur before the full economic grants will be arrived at in Scotland? Secondly, he said in his statement that local authorities would be expected to operate the rent rebates for the private sector and went on to say that the greater amount of the finance would be found by the Exchequer. By the "greater amount" does he mean 5 per cent. or 99 per cent.? Whichever figure it is, does he not agree that all he is doing is transferring taxation from national level to local level; in other words, beating the localities to pay for the so-called promises of this Government?
Mr. Walker: As to the speed with which this will be done, it will vary from one local authority to another depending on the present level of rents. This applies over the whole of Great Britain. On the second point, as to the proportion of the cost of rebates, this is another subject which I want to discuss with the local authorities, but it will be a substantial part.
Mr. Longden: Dealing with houses in a state of ill-repair, referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Allason), is my right hon. Friend aware that these houses are mostly in bad repair because their owners

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are the type of people referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Mr. Maddan) and have not been able to charge a fair rent for all these years? What will happen to them? Are they to be further penalised?
Mr. Walker: The tact that they will now be moved on to a fair rent basis and as they improve their properties will be able to get a fair rent, depending on the state of repair and improvement, will encourage a great deal of repair to these houses.
Mr. English: Has the Secretary of State altered the total Exchequer assistance with regard to housing at all? Would he give the comparable figures, the forward estimate, for the owner-occupiers' subsidy by way of tax allowance? Can he say what it was, and would he further say by how much it is proposed it will increase as a result of the disincentives he is now giving to the tenants of council houses?
Mr. Walker: In terms of the subsidy in the rented sector, if by 1975–76 there is a reduction of £100 million on the estimates for that year, it will mean that we would be spending £230 million that year compared with £190 million last year. In the owner-occupier scheme I have no specific estimate, but I hope it will be substantially increased because I hope that there will be a considerable rise in the number of owner-occupiers.
Sir B. Rhys Williams: While it is obviously better to subsidise families and not houses, has my right hon. Friend considered the overwhelming advantages of making assessment of income through the tax system and not leaving it to local authorities who are not equipped to handle means testing on this scale?
Mr. Walker: The use of the tax system in this sphere is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor.
Mr. Denis Howell: Since very few landlords have built houses for letting for general needs in recent years, how will the criteria of fair rents be determined in those circumstances? Most important, how do these measures reconcile with the determined aim of the Government to bring down prices at a stroke?
Mr. Walker: Dealing with the first part of the question, I have consulted with the presidents and vice-presidents of
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the rent assessment panels and they are perfectly happy that they can provide proper assessments for new houses. There is no difficulty there. On the second point, there will be a large number of the 400,000 tenants that were moved over to fair rents by the previous Government who will have their rents reduced as a result of these measures.
Mr. Iremonger: What is the meaning of the word "fair" in the phrase "fair rent formula"?
Mr. Walker: It was a formula introduced in the 1965 Rent Act and Members on both sides had some suspicions as to how it would work. It is a method of trying to take out of the assessment of the market cost the scarcity value. Therefore, in areas of serious housing shortage and housing problems it means that tolerably fair rents are charged.
Mr. Carter: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that far from being welcomed, as was suggested by the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys), this measure is an instrument of social injustice? Is he aware that people will regard the statement as a prescription for the return of Rachmanism?
Mr. Walker: The question of security of tenure which was very much connected with the condition of Rachmanism is, if anything, strengthened by my proposals because security of tenure remains for 8 million tenants. Whereas previously one of the factors in losing security of tenure was inability to pay the rent, by providing a proper rent rebate scheme over the whole system this will no longer be a factor.
Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg: Will my right hon. Friend accept from those of us active in local government that we welcome the broad principles he has enunciated? Would he secondly accept the congratulations of many of us on what he has said about helping those in the private sector following particularly on the far-sighted legislation for the city of Birmingham? May I ask particularly what he thinks his measure will do to help the housing problems of Inner London where the cost of land is high and where local authorities such as Camden have to provide homes for lower-paid workers who take part in the essential services of the capital, but whose housing revenue

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accounts are steadily getting more and more into deficit, even though they are adopting sound rent rebate schemes?
Mr. Walker: My proposals were framed after looking in some detail at the problem of the Inner London boroughs. The combination of increased assistance for slum clearance and for the high cost of clearance of land in such areas, together with the provision of rebate to those tenants who cannot afford the rent, will mean that the Inner London boroughs are in a much better position than ever before to tackle their housing problems.
Mr. William Hamilton: Since the Secretary of State for Scotland has obviously lost the power of speech, can the right hon. Gentleman answer two specific questions about the Scottish problem, which is very different from the English problem? First, when the Chancellor said that there would be savings of between £100 million and £200 million a year in subsidies by 1974–75, can he say what proportion of that was the Scottish figure? Secondly, can he say whether this announcement made on behalf of Scotland goes to fulfilling the Prime Minister's promise that special help would be given to Glasgow, and if that is the case will it result in reduced rents in Glasgow Corporation houses?
Mr. Walker: I cannot give the proportions because they will be known only after discussion with the local authority. Therefore, the proportion between the countries will not be known. What I have announced will be of considerable value to Glasgow because that is an area with many low-paid people who will enjoy rebates and where the cost of slum clearance is high.
Mr. Warren: In establishing the rent which a tenant should pay, will my right hon. Friend consider the need to take account of the total income coming into each household?
Mr. Walker: The details of the rent rebate scheme will be worked out in discussion with the local authority. I want to ensure that it is a generous rebate scheme which meets the needs of the family.
Mr. Freeson: Will the Secretary of State inform the House how much he
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expects the increase in slum clearance to be over the next four years on current figures? By how much will his fair rent policy, when introduced, produce larger returns to local authorities than the cost of providing and running the estates?
Mr. Walker: On the latter point, my proposals will help local authorities. I hope that there will be a substantial increase in slum clearance as a result of the very substantial increase in financial help. This decision is for local authorities, but naturally I hope that, with a substantial increase in the help available, the slum clearance programme will go ahead much faster.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I must protect the business of the House.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS
Mr. Emery: On a point of order. I apologise for not giving you, Mr. Speaker, notice of this point of order, which has been illustrated by what has happened on the statement by the Secretary of State for the Environment. Can you find a way to return to past practice?
Today, five Front Bench Opposition spokesmen have sought to put questions on the statement. Frequently Front Bench spokesmen are able to pose more and often slightly longer questions than you, Mr. Speaker, would allow back bench Members to pose. The practice used to be that often Front Bench spokesmen retired to the back benches to take their turn in catching your eye to put questions. The present practice does nothing to facilitate back bench Members in putting questions.
Mr. Speaker: One of the myths of Parliament is that things were ever so much better in previous Parliaments. Whichever party is in power, when important statements are made—and the House would agree that we have had a series of important statements recently—the Opposition Front Bench spokesmen indulge in a wider range of activity than is usual. I try to call back bench Members whenever I can, but the Front Bench has a right to lend significance to a statement by multiplying its questions.
Mr. Eadie: Further to the point of order. While I have some sympathy with the hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery), it is of great significance that Government Members were running out of questions whereas my hon. Friends and I had many questions to ask. As a Scottish Member, I would have liked to ask the Secretary of State for Scotland a question through the Secretary of State for the Environment. We should like to question the Government further on this statement.
Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for resisting the temptation to put the question which he would have liked to put if he had managed to catch my eye. It is very difficult for Mr. Speaker to reconcile the claim of Members to subject Ministers to a searching examination and the claim of the House to deal with the business of the day. It is a matter of judgment. I must take action at certain times. I hope that we can move on.
Mr. English: On a point of order. Since it is your custom, Mr. Speaker, to divide questions on statements between both sides of the House, and to call all Front Bench spokesmen who stand up, even if the Secretary of State for Scotland does not do so, would you in future divide the time for back bench questions between both sides of the House?
Mr. Speaker: I do not think I could do that.
Mr. Douglas: On a point of order. As a relatively new Member, I seek your guidance Mr. Speaker on this very important matter. I should like to crave your indulgence by referring to the White Paper on the Reorganisation of Central Government which is to be discussed later. It says:
"The functions of the Scottish Office are not affected by any of the changes set out above. In Scotland Ministerial responsibility for most of the services now assigned to the Department of the Environment is already in the hands of the Secretary of State for Scotland, as also is his responsibility in relation to the local authority personal social services"
When will we be afforded an opportunity to question pertinently the Secretary of State for Scotland on the Ministerial statements made before today and, in particular, this afternoon?
Mr. Speaker: That is a question which I suppose the Government Front Bench will note. I have no power to summon any Minister to attend, even from Scotland.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That at this day's Sitting the Proceedings on the Motion relating to Parliamentary Expenses may be entered upon at any hour though opposed, and may be proceeded with during a period of one hour after Ten o'clock, or after they have been entered upon, whichever is the later, and that the Proceedings on the Motion relating to Business of the House may be entered upon and proceeded with at any hour, though opposed.—[Mr. Pym.]

CENTRAL GOVERNMENT (REORGANISATION)
4.17 p.m.
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw): I beg to move
That this House approves the White Paper on the Reorganisation of Central Government (Command Paper No. 4506).
I should start by apologising in advance to the House for my absence later. At five o'clock I have to attend in my capacity as Leader of the House an important meeting which affects several senior Members. As I have explained to the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland), this will mean my leaving the Chamber for a short time during his speech. I hope that the House will acquit me of any discourtesy, particularly as I have been careful about informing it of the situation.
The arrangements for this debate have been made with the intention of giving the House the opportunity to have a wide ranging debate on the whole subject of the machinery of Government. First, I am asking the House to approve the White Paper on the Reorganisation of Central Government, Cmnd. Paper No. 4506. Secondly, there are on the Order Paper specific affirmative Orders dealing with the establishment of the Department for the Environment and the merging of the Ministry of Overseas Development with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. As the House will appreciate, these Orders cannot come into effect unless and until they are passed tonight. Thirdly, there are Orders already in force but subject to the negative procedure dealing with the responsibilities of the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and the Ministry of Aviation Supply and with the transfer of responsibility for primary and secondary education for Wales to the Secretary of State for Wales. The remaining changes in departmental responsibilities announced in the White Paper require administrative action only. The transfer of responsibility for child care, for example, from the Home Secretary to the Secretary of State for Social Services is the main one and will take effect from the beginning of the new year.
Our intention is to introduce a system of better, more efficient and less govern-
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ment. The changes are the culmination of all the careful and detailed planning work directed by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister when we were in Opposition and developed with the aid of the Civil Service Department since we came to Government. They represent a major operation of lasting importance to the quality of government and it is intended that they should now be followed by a period of stability.
We have already, as a Government, shown that we are in earnest about our plans. As promised by the Prime Minister at the time of the election, we now have a smaller Government, 18 fewer Ministers than under the previous Administration. The White Paper emphasises our determination to carry on the process of reducing and rationalising the functions of government, in line with the needs of the 1970s, throughout the Administration.
This reorganisation should certainly not be regarded as in any sense a criticism of the Civil Service. It cannot be said too often that we in this country are exceptionally fortunate in the able and dedicated men and women whom we have in our public service. If their considerable talents are not used to the best advantage, then let us in this House be perfectly clear that the fault lies with Ministers themselves, whatever the political party to which they belong.
I have seen it suggested that these plans represent some shift away from the degree of responsibility to this House on the part of the Executive. I really do not see how, on the proposals as they are presented, this sort of view can be sustained.
As Leader of the House, I wish to give my answer to that charge in unequivocal terms. I repeat my utter conviction that parliamentary criticism and probing of the Executive is essential to good government. I have no intention whatever of leading a House of Commons which is declining in influence. Quite the reverse. I want to see the effectiveness of this House substantially strengthened, both here in the Chamber and in the Select Committees.
However, Parliament has an important rôle to play in the success of the new unified Departments which, in principle, are, I believe, broadly acceptable to both sides of the House. Delegation of Ministerial responsibility within Departments

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is essential if they are to function effectively. If Parliament were to command that every aspect of, for example, the work of the Department for the Environment which is of major importance had to be dealt with in person by the Secretary of State, many of the potential gains from the reorganisation would be lost.
Within this Department the Minister for Local Government and Development, the Minister for Housing and Construction and the Minister for Transport Industries are intended to have, and must be seen to have, real responsibility within their fields. The capacity of the Minister in charge of a unified Department to take a broad view of policy and give his attention to the strategic issues depends on his having the time to do it.
Likewise, the responsibility to Parliament of the Ministers under him, some of whom have jobs which only a short time ago ranked as full Cabinet Departments, depends on the real and effective delegation of functions. I hope that hon. Members in all parts of the House will recognise the importance of accepting such delegation when they are dealing with the new Departments.
Mr. Edmund Dell: Would the right hon. Gentleman like to start making that delegation more real by making it possible for hon. Members to put Questions to those Ministers under the Secretary of State?
Mr. Whitelaw: We have produced a new Question roster with the purpose of seeing how it works out. I have said that I am perfectly ready to consider any possible changes that might be necessary in the light of experience. That remains my position. I would, therefore, like to see how we get on with the present arrangements.
Mr. William Rodgers: An important point is at stake here and my question follows the one asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Dell). Is the Leader of the House suggesting, as I understand him to be, that there will be a new responsibility of subordinate Ministers to Parliament? Will they be required to answer in this place for their responsibilities within their Departments, and are those responsibilities quite separate from those of the Secretaries of State?
Mr. Whitelaw: No. That is not the position. The position is quite plainly that these new Departments are Departments on their own. The Secretary of State will bear the final responsibility to Parliament for everything which happens within his Department.
I am saying that if this system is to work, where the Secetary of State has the final responsibility, hon. Members will, I believe, have to accept that delegation by the Secretary of State to his other Ministers is obviously right and proper. However, I wish to make it clear that if they are to be unified Departments—as I understand is broadly acceptable—then the final responsibility lies directly with the Secretary of State.
I come to the particular changes. The Department for the Environment unifies the work of the Ministries of Housing and Local Government, Public Building and Works and Transport under a single Secretary of State. It will be responsible for a whole range of functions affecting people's everyday lives, including the planning of land, housing, road transport programme, amenity matters and regional policies.
It has become increasingly obvious in our modern society that these policies must be considered together. I think the need for a corresponding reform of the Government machine has also been broadly agreed for a number of years and that there is general all-party support for the principle of the new Department.
Mr. J. T. Price: I was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman mention the sacred word "land". I am not opposed to the delegation of responsibility and I do not think that most of my hon. Friends oppose it in principle. However, we are concerned about the derogation of responsibility—for example, in the recent winding up of the Land Commission. I hope it will be convenient during this debate to tell us what will happen to all the transitional contracts which have been entered into between the Land Commission and local authorities, some of which are in my part of the world, in Lancashire.
Have the Government considered the contracts which they are now unilaterally abrogating? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many councils are disappointed over the scrapping of the

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machinery that has existed in this matter? Whatever Government are in power, it is their duty to make transitional arrangements in such a way as to ensure that any contracts in the pipeline with local authorities are protected.
Mr. Whitelaw: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's remarks. He has great experience in this House, far longer than most of us and certainly longer than mine. If he wishes detailed answers to those questions, he might care to direct Questions to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment who will, no doubt, be able to explain in detail exactly what plans we have regarding the winding up of the Land Commission.
The broad objective of the new Department of Trade and Industry will, I believe, command support in the House. Basically, it is to improve the competitive strength of the economy by enabling the Government to bring together in one and the same Department the responsibilities for general industrial policy and administration, apart from manpower questions, which were previously divided between the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Technology.
The Department will also take back those responsibilities for monopolies, mergers and restrictive trade practices which were transferred, in an earlier reorganisation under the previous Government, from the Board of Trade to the then Department of Employment and Productivity. The Government feel that these functions now fit naturally with the new unified Department of Trade and Industry.
The Ministry of Aviation Supply, which retains the responsibilities of the former Ministry of Technology, for aerospace research and development and procurement, is essentially a temporary solution to the problem of organisation in a field which many Governments have acknowledged to be difficult. Therefore, while establishing a separate Ministry of Aviation Supply, the Government have set up at the same time a project team to carry out a fundamental review of the responsibilities with which the new Ministry is concerned. The longer-term future of these functions will be decided after the report of the project team is implemented
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in April, 1972. The present Ministry of Aviation Supply will then be wound up, and on the defence side it is envisaged that any new organisation should be under the responsibility of the Secretary of State for Defence.
I now turn to changes which I understand are more controversial. The first is the decision to merge the Ministry of Overseas Development with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. This change must be judged against the background of the Government's clear policy on overseas aid as stated again recently at the United Nations by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. My right hon. Friend there announced a clear commitment to an increase in our official aid programme for the next few years despite a substantial reduction in public expenditure generally. As he said, we shall do our best to reach by 1975 the 1 per cent. target agreed by the Second U.N.C.T.A.D. Conference.
In these circumstances, I cannot personally understand how it can be anything but helpful to make as strong and powerful a figure as the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary, backed by a most senior Department of State, responsible in Cabinet for the overseas aid programme. In addition, my right hon. Friend the Minister in charge of the old Department will carry on his overseas aid work in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Anyway, it is surely results that matter in the end and, as a Government, we certainly intend to do better under this new arrangement than our predecessors did with a separate Department.
As was announced in the Queen's Speech, the Government have also decided to take a further important step in the devolution of power to the Welsh Office in fulfilment of a commitment made when we were in opposition. This is being done in a field which I know is close to Welsh hearts and interests—that of education. While I know that there are still some doubts about certain aspects of this reorganisation, which I hope will be resolved in any discussion there may be on the transfer Order later this evening, I shall be surprised if the purpose of this measure will not be widely welcomed in Wales.
The proposal to establish a central policy review staff in the Cabinet Office has rightly attracted considerable interest.

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When Ministers exercise decisions within their own fields of responsibility they have the staff backing of the whole of their Departments, but when they go to Cabinet, or to one of the Cabinet committees, and exercise their collective responsibility—and I think that we all know that the important Government decisions are mostly taken in a collective way—they do not have the same degree of consistent staff support in depth. This cannot be right. Everyone who has been served by the Cabinet Secretariat will agree that it does its job with efficiency and devotion, but it cannot take on a completely new task. We therefore need a new staff, properly within the Cabinet Office, to give Ministers collectively continuing and consistent staff support so that they can discuss issues and exercise their political judgment in a more informed and coherent way than has been possible in the past.
There is in this proposal no question of this new staff substituting its own central view for the collective or individual views of Departments. It will work with and through Departments, involving them fully in the process of refining and developing Government strategy and relating specific issues to this strategy.
Mr. Dick Douglas: Perhaps the Leader of the House will further clarify the relationship he mentions. If the central policy review staff is to work with and through Departments will it not in essence duplicate the function, and thereby, instead of speeding up the decision-making process, necessarily prolong it?
Mr. Whitelaw: I do not think that those who have experience of Government, and many in this House have had great experience of it, would support that view.
Nor, of course, is there any question of this central review body taking away from Ministers their responsibility for taking decisions and for exercising their political judgment. No amount or degree of analysis can, in any case, do this. The central review body will merely enable Ministers to carry out their collective responsibility better by making their decisions more soundly based.
Mr. Hugh Jenkins: I hesitate to interrupt at this point, as the right hon. Gentleman appears to be approaching his
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peroration, but I am afraid that if I do not do so now I may find that he has sat down before I have asked him a question which I am particularly anxious to ask. It seems to me that there is a difference between the White Paper we are now discussing and the Order we shall discuss later. It seems that the White Paper envisages that the new Minister for the Environment will be responsible for all noise, including aircraft noise, as it is stated in the White Paper. On the other hand, the Order does not seem to say this. Have the Government changed their mind in the few days that have elapsed between publication of the two documents? If so, why?
Mr. Whitelaw: I do not think that there has been a question of changing our mind. The position, as I understand it, is that the Department of Trade and Industry is responsible for airports and, therefore, inevitably for aircraft noise, but the Department for the Environment, being a strong Department and very much concerned with all amenity questions, such as aircraft noise, will obviously have a much stronger voice on this issue than before.
To return to the subject of the central policy review staff, it is to this end that this staff, headed by Lord Rothschild, will be directing itself. I am glad to see that Lord Rothschild's appointment, and his unique academic and personal qualities, have been widely recognised in public comment. I should like to take this opportunity of wishing him and his staff well, and I hope that this wish will be widely shared in the House today.
These, then, are the main proposals in the reorganisation of central Government which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced last month in presenting his White Paper. They are the result of much long-term thinking and planning. They are intended to provide a permanent and stable basis for more efficient and less government. I am convinced that they will be successful in their purpose, and in that spirit I commend them to the House.
4.40 p.m.
Mr. Anthony Crosland: The whole House will understand the reasons why the Leader of the House must leave us briefly at five o'clock. Although the Government—all Governments—are very active on modernising the machinery of

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government, nobody has yet succeeded in modernising all the somewhat ancient rituals of the right hon. Gentleman's office.
I found the right hon. Gentleman's speech this afternoon both clearer and more agreeable in tone than I found the White Paper, parts of which, and particularly the opening—what one might call the philosophy parts of the Paper—seem to me tendentious, ungenerous and often pompous. They are tendentious because they greatly exaggerate the importance of these changes and give the impression that until now no systematic thought has ever been given to these matters. It is absurd to have a sentence like the following in paragraph 5:
"This review differs fundamentally both in the depth of its aims and in the breadth of its scope from previous piecemeal changes in the pattern of departmental responsibilities."
That sentence probably came from the Conservative Central Office, rather than from the Civil Service Department. There are similar bombastic phrases like
"… will remove the need for continual changes for a considerable period in the future."
Of course, it will do no such thing. The whole essence of the machinery of government is the need for continuous examination and change. As for the phrases from Section I about the need for humanity and compassion, a better sense of taste and tact might have been shown if those had been omitted in view of the Chancellor's statement last week.
I find those opening sections not only tendentious but also ungenerous, because they pay no tribute to—indeed, there is no mention of—the Fulton Report. There is no mention of the establishment of the Civil Service Department. There is no mention of the Civil Service College, or of any of the constant attempts of my right hon. Friend the present Leader of the Opposition and my noble Friend Lord Shackleton to improve the machinery over the past few years. It might have been more generous to make some mention of those points. I also find the White Paper pompous. Indeed, much of Section II is pompous waffle. I shall quote just two gems from it:
"… the object has been to ensure that the broad framework of the central machinery
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… complies with the Government's strategic policy objectives."
It is difficult to see what other object one could possibly have. The other gem is:
"… government departments should be organised by reference to the task to be done or the objective to be attained,…"
That is a blinding flash of wisdom which will illuminate all our future debates on this subject. I can imagine university professors in every university of the country scurrying with great anxiety to their textbooks and trying to revise them in the light of this new wisdom.
But in case anybody thinks that these ringing declarations are to be taken too seriously, there is comfort in another sentence which says:
"The acceptance of the functional principle of organisation does not mean that there can be no departure from it if there are strong reasons for moderating its application."
The kindest comment on all these opening pages of the White Paper was that by Lord Rothschild when he said,
"I think I understand what it says, but it is rather long language."
I should have liked to hear the comment of that astringent man had he not that day become a servant of the Government.
I turn, as the right hon. Gentleman did, to the individual proposals, and I take them, as he did, in the order in which they appear in the White Paper. First, there is the Department of Trade and Industry. I believe that this merger between the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Technology is wrong, because the new Department will be unmanageably large and unmanageably heterogeneous. In other words, it will be an almost unmanageable conglomerate, except on certain extreme assumptions to which I shall come in a moment.
Even the old Board of Trade—and when I say "the old Board of Trade" I mean the Board of Trade pre-October, 1969—very nearly approached the extreme possible span of responsibility, in my view, and I had over two years there. It was the same Board of Trade over which Peter Thorneycroft, now Lord Thorneycroft, presided for 5½ years, I think longer than any President of the Board of Trade in this century. I remember his once saying that it was only right at the end of his 5½ years that he reckoned that he had mastered all the

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important responsibilities covered by the Board of Trade's functions.
As for the Ministry of Technology post-October, 1969, when this was debated in the House on 21st October last year the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) referred to it as a
"… vast and emorphous jellyfish of a Department …".
He said:
"We"—
the then Opposition—
"believe that the Department is now too big for a Minister …".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st October, 1969; Vol. 788, c. 1079–88]
Yet these two Departments have now been merged together. I assure the House that this makes a very large and very unwieldy Department, with responsibilities going all the way from company law to the civil airlines, from patent law to the steel industry, from the trade figures to shipbuilding, from I.D.C.s to coping with the "Pacific Glory" wreck, and so on.
It is true that the new Department has lost aircraft procurement. It is also true that it has lost investment grants, I assume, since under the new system of investment incentives this matter will be the responsibility of the Inland Revenue. It is true also that, by what I think is a contemptible little decision, it has lost the work involved in the Consumer Council.
Perhaps I could say a brief word about that decision, which affects the responsibilities of the new Department. Of course, it was carried out with all the usual courtesies. The Council first heard of the decision in a leak in the Sunday Times. The Chairman of the Council was then summoned to see the hon. Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir J. Eden) at eleven o'clock of the day in the afternoon of which the Chancellor was due to announce the Council's abolition. The Chairman of the Council was given no reasons for the decision. The reasons were given two or three days later in a Press statement sent to the Council by ordinary post, reaching it at least a day after the Council had read the statement in the newspapers.
As no tribute has been paid by any Government spokesman to the work of the Council, as far as I know, let me pay one now, I think on behalf not
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only of the Opposition but also on behalf of some hon. Members opposite. I pay tribute to Lady Elliot, a very distinguished Conservative lady who presided over the Council for many years with great distinction; to Lord Donaldson, her successor, whom I had the privilege of appointing; and above all to Dame Elizabeth Ackroyd—Betty Ackroyd as she is known to many people—and her staff for the devoted work they put in. Their efforts deserve better reward than they have had.
The decision on the Consumer Council is essential to the only assumption on which the new Department, otherwise unmanageable, could possibly become manageable: that is, that it carries laissez-faire and non-intervention to lengths which are almost incredible in the latter part of the 20th century and which go far beyond the extent of laissez-faire in any other advanced industrial country.
So, we are to have no Government-backed body to help the consumer, despite all the recommendations of the Molony Committee; despite the decision of the previous Conservative Government to set up the Consumer Council in 1963; despite all the evidence from the United States and elsewhere of how badly consumer protection is needed; and despite the self-evident truth, admitted by many others besides Socialists, that competition will not work properly unless the consumer is well-informed.
With the abolition of the I.R.C. we are to have no body to help alter the structure of industry. This is to be left entirely to competition and market forces. I am—more, probably, than some of my hon. Friends—a strong believer in competition and competitive industry, but in this day and age of large-scale concerns it is impossible to believe that competition unaided can secure the best industrial structure in our really large-scale industries. Goodness knows, before and since the war we have had plenty of evidence to show the truth of that statement.
Generally the Department, if we are to judge from the speeches of the Secretary of State, will show an almost total abdication of responsibility either for industrial efficiency or for the social consequences of industrial change. We do not know how far this policy will be

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carried. We do not know what effect it will have on U.C.S., Cammell Laird and Rolls-Royce, although in the case of Rolls-Royce it looks as though perhaps these decisions will not be taken by the Government, by a body like the I.R.C., or by the market. It looks as though they are to revert, as was the case in the early 1930s, to the province of the Governor of the Bank of England, who, over Rolls-Royce, according to Press reports, is behaving very much like Sir Montague Norman was behaving in 1932 over Shipbuilders Securities Ltd., an operation which many of my hon. Friends from the North-East will remember very well.
I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman is not here, because I am surprised that some of these decisions should have been made by the new Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. He was known to many of us before he entered the House. I had the pleasure, as a Minister, of seeing a great deal of him when he represented the C.B.I. Of course, then he represented the interests of the C.B.I. and of industry. That was his job and background, and he was right to do so. But he always did it in a very sophisticated way as though at any rate he lived in the industry of the 1970's. I never thought that he was a character who could conceivably believe that market forces unaided or competition unaided, operating through the invisible hand, would sufficiently protect the consumer and create the right structure of industry. Indeed, these views are really ironic coming from someone who has spent most of his life in the oil industry. It would be the understatement of the day to say that, in that industry, competition operated in a remarkably wasteful and imperfect manner.
I throw out a challenge to the right hon. Gentleman which I ask one of his junior Ministers to pass on to him. Today, we are told that Esso has increased the prices of petrol and oil by 1d. a gallon. The right hon. Gentleman spent a large part of his industrial life with Shell-Mex. Let him now prove that he really believes in competition by getting on to Shell-Mex at once and persuading it actually to compete and not to increase its prices in line with the Esso increases. We then would really have a demonstration that the Government believe in
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what they say. But I must add, "What a hope!".
I am happy to turn to a part of the White Paper with which we are in agreement, and that is the creation of the Department of the Environment. This is wholly in line with our thinking, as I believe is generally known. In October, 1969, my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Mr. Harold Wilson) appointed me as Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning with responsibility for the Ministries of Housing and Local Government and Transport. At that time he asked me
"… to report on the changes which … should be made at a later date with a view to creating a more integrated Department."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th October, 1969; Vol 788, c. 34.]
I duly reported to my right hon. Friend in May. I told him that I thought the right thing would be to merge, as the present Government have done, the three Departments of Housing, Transport and Public Building and Works. He accepted my recommendation and, as he has told the House, would have implemented it immediately after the election had we won it.
I have only three short comments on this aspect of the White Paper and they are on the internal structure of the new Department. The first is a minor one. It is somewhat of a curiosity that sport and recreation should now come under the Minister of Transport. I have no doubt that he is a sportsman of distinction, although I have no recollection of his sporting prowess when we were students together at the same university, although perhaps things have changed for the better since then. Indeed, he was notoriously intellectual while I was the eminent sportsman at the time. Nevertheless, it seems curious to put sport and recreation in his Ministry, particularly as, in opposition, the Conservatives were constantly urging us to take it away from the Department of Education and Science and put it in the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, where it could have been mixed in with the protection of the countryside and other allied questions.
I have asked my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Denis Howell), who did so much for sport, whether he could think of any reason for the proposal to move sport

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to the Ministry of Transport. The only reason he could think of was that the word "sport" appeared in the word "transport". But I feel that there must be some much more subtle reason. I hope that we shall hear it in the reply tonight.
My next comment on the internal arrangements, again concerning the Minister of Transport, is on the separation of transport planning and roads from the remainder of transport. I can see why this has been done. The planning of roads is crucial to planning generally. Nevertheless, I have some reservations. If we say that road planning is crucial to planning as a whole, why does not the same apply to housing, also crucial to planning, or to new towns, which are obviously even more crucial? It is not quite easy to see why this division was made. It will have the effect, for the first time in many years, of ending the possibility of any sort of co-ordinated transport system, which has, in some form or other, been the aim of successive Governments probably since the end of the war. We have for the first time a roads programme separated from rail and all other forms of transport. I cannot believe that this is right.
My third comment concerns the powers of the Secretary of State himself. He, rightly, now has the statutory powers. He has—far more important—a Secretary of State's natural political power to take charge of any question he wants. He has reporting directly to him the Central Scientific Unit on Pollution, which we set up and which was beginning to do most valuable work, and that is right. What amazes me about the new set up is that he has no planning division directly responsible to him.
In my view, it should be laid down clearly that the regional economic planning councils report directly to him and that he be backed, as I was, even without statutory powers, by certain central planning divisions which cover the work of all the three separate Ministries. I do not see how he can carry out co-ordinating functions otherwise. Reports will come up from Transport, Housing or Local Government and Development—whatever the third name is—and unless he has specifically created a planning staff of his own he will not be in a position to argue a question satisfactorily from the total point of view as opposed to one of
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the three individual points of view. The right hon. Gentleman has said, reasonably, that he is not committed to this arrangement for all time, and I hope that he will look at this again.
I turn now to an aspect which is, as the Lord President correctly said, highly controversial. This is the merger of the Ministry of Overseas Development with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. The Ministry of Overseas Development had established an enviable and worldwide reputation not only for its humanity but for the efficiency with which it dispensed its aid. This reputation was widespread throughout the developing countries themselves and was also strong in international organisations like U.N.C.T.A.D. and the World Bank. None of us was satisfied with the amount of aid but we were all impressed by the competence of the Ministry as an aid-giving organisation.
No case has been made out for the change and there are some very strong arguments against it. Inside the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, although to some extent it will be autonomous, as the right hon. Gentleman said, there is bound to be a lesser tendency to take account of the needs of the developing countries and a greater tendency to pursue the foreign policy interests of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I hesitate to raise this personal point but I feel that I must say that it seems particularly tactless and offensive to put the Ministry of Overseas Development under the ultimate control of a Foreign Secretary who has shown himself over South Africa and arms to be totally insensitive to the feelings and aspirations of the developing countries of Africa.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart) will be raising this matter in more detail when we debate the relevant Order at Ten o'clock, so I will leave the matter there. I also say nothing about child care responsibility, as I have no competence to do so. On the question of school education in Wales, as Englishmen have always been inhibited—wrongly in my view—from saying anything about Scotland or Wales, I shall not say anything about that, but my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. George Thomas) will probably speak about that Order later tonight. However, as an ex-educationist, at any rate I can say that I feel the most

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profound disquiet at this fragmentation of the education service. I understand that such fragmentation is opposed by virtually every authoritative body in education.
I turn now to the most mysterious part of the White Paper. It could be the most important part, but we do not know because it is extremely vaguely worded. It concerns the Central Policy Review Staff, or what has come to be known as the "Central Capability Unit". There are two interpretations of what this is intended to do. One is an interpretation supported by that perennial optimist, my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. H. Lever), and partially supported in the right hon. Gentleman's speech today—that the objective should be fundamentally to strengthen the briefings which the Cabinet Office gives to individual Ministers. My right hon. Friend will develop this thesis later, but he carried it a long way in a most sympathetic article in this week's New Statesman, although I detected a certain anti-Treasury bias in the article.
Mr. Harold Lever: Oh, no!
Mr. Crosland: No, that was quite unfair. My right hon. Friend was making the point that it is essential to fight the monopolistic and secretive control that the Treasury exercises over central economic policy and that this can be done only by an inner group of economic Ministers; and it should be the main object of the new unit to brief that group. I have a great deal of sympathy with this approach, as my right hon. Friend knows, but that is certainly not—at least, I assume that it is not—the Prime Minister's intention, because he would not have appointed as the head of the new unit a zoologist, however distinguished a zoologist, if the object were to be economic briefing.
Perhaps I may echo the good wishes paid by the right hon. Gentleman to Lord Rothschild. There have been many funny stories about him in the newspapers and about his interest in the spermatozoa of trout, or whatever they are, and how he receives guests in his dressing gown, but many people know that he is a most formidable personality with the widest experience of government, industry and academic life. Whatever his new
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job is, which I do not know, I wish him well in it.
Mr. J. T. Price: I am not surprised that the Government have appointed a zoologist; after all, they are dealing with monkey business.
Mr. Crosland: That is an explanation of such ingenuity that it had not occurred to me, I regret to say.
It is possible that what is intended is not merely to strengthen the Cabinet Office on economic briefing, as my right hon. Friend is urging, but to brief more generally, and it appears that Lord Rothschild sees his function in this way, because at his first Press conference he was using phrases like "The Cabinet Office is thin on the ground".
I have no objection to the strengthening of the processes of Government in this way, but this interpretation goes diametrically against what is said in the White Paper, and it is rather important to see what the White Paper says about the new unit.
It says that we are to have this new inter-disciplinary unit—not Ministerial—composed of officials and outsiders responsible to the Secretary of the Cabinet. To do what?
The first task, according to the White Paper, is an extraordinary one. It is to lay down
"a clear and comprehensive definition of Government strategy".
Are we to believe that the Tories came into office with no clear and comprehensive definition of strategy? After all the conferences and all the study groups and all the work of the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. David Howell), are they seriously saying that they have arrived in office only to discover that they are missing a clear and comprehensive definition of their strategy? It is an amazing assertion.
That is not all. Having discovered themselves in this humiliating situation, what do they do? They decide to delegate this task of providing such a strategy not to a group of Ministers responsible to Parliament, but to this ad hoc group of officials and multidisciplinary experts, whoever they are to be, headed of all things by a Labour peer. It seems to be an eccentric way of proceeding.

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No doubt at some time we may come into office with an insufficiently clear definition of our strategy, but I have no doubt that one thing which we will not do is have a Tory peer to advise us on what it should be. If the whole thing were not so funny, it would be tragic. It fully justifies the criticism made by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition when he said that it represented an obfuscation of issues which should be thrashed out by Ministers and Parliament.
If we dismiss that, the other possible function of the new unit I find disturbing. I quote paragraph 47 of the White Paper:
"its task will be to enable them"—
that is, Ministers—
"to take better policy decisions by assisting them to work out …"
and so on.
Thinking about this in some detail, I assume that it is the intention of the new unit to assist Ministers to choose between different policies, to set out priorities and all sorts of things which I would have thought were the function of a Minister. That is what a Minister is for. He may be good or bad, but that is what he is supposed to be doing.
The thought which has constantly occurred to me is that "The 'Prof' rides again"—with a vengeance. This is a return to the super Professor Lindemann, later Lord Cherwell. One may argue about whether the Cherwell experiment was a success or a failure. I would say that the balance of harm which he did to the country was greater than the balance of good. He was wrong against Sir Henry Tizard over radar and wrong about the strategic bomber offensive and wrong in saying in 1944 that the Germans would never produce rockets and seriously wrong in supporting the Morgenthau Plan. However, whatever one thinks about him and the balance of his being right and wrong, there can be no disagreement about the friction which this kind of appointment creates inside the Government.
Let me illustrate this by an example from a Department which, as the House is aware, I know well. If as Secretary of State for Education I am told by the Prime Minister that he does not like my policy on comprehensive education,
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or on the binary system, or whatever it may be and will I please change it or bring it to the Cabinet, while I may be furious in the extreme—for no Ministers like Prime Ministerial Government, except the Prime Minister, and that is a natural fact of life—it is a proper and democratic way of going about things and I should do what the Prime Minister said.
But if Lord Rothschild telephoned me to make an appointment to discuss my policy of comprehensive education, or the binary system, what would happen? He would no doubt be accompanied by a Cabinet Office official and one of the famous multi-disciplinary team of experts, probably an educationist. The official would know far less than the officials in the Department of Education. If he were the slightest good, I should have brought the educationist inside my Department, or be wholly familiar with his views. As for Lord Rothschild, I know that he has very strong views on the organisation of science policy which I happen to believe wrong, but otherwise he does not know anything about education. I say that with no disrespect to him, for he is a zoologist and not an educationist. That is a recipe for friction, mess and muddle.
No Minister should object to being prodded by any group of insiders or outsiders. He should not object to hearing alternative views or alternative policies. But if he is any good he will make sure that these alternative views are expressed within his own Department. To the extent that they are not, he will carefully listen to criticism and alternatives put forward by outside professional bodies, by the informed Press and by the academic world, wherever it may be. It is therefore highly unlikely that this new unit can bring to bear still more informed criticism, unless it is absolutely vast in size, which I gather is not the object, and if it is small in size it will merely be a further irritant.
Mr. Robert Sheldon: Would not my right hon. Friend accept that although he is pointing to a real danger, there is the possibility of the new unit being used for purposes rather better than that, in that it could be used to differentiate between policies and to make sure that the effect of one

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policy on the policy of another Department is not to the disadvantage of the Government's programme as a whole?
Mr. Crosland: It is not easy to see why this cannot be done by the normal machinery of inter-departmental committees, for that is exactly what these committees are for. At any rate, I do not wish to oppose the idea and I was about to say that we should all experiment the whole of the time. There are weaknesses in the present system and so such things should be tried. If I am proved wrong, I shall be delighted for my hon. Friend to be proved right.
Lastly, I come to the subject of the control of public expenditure. We all want to improve this. We all want to get better value for money, to have more cost-effective programmes and we all want, in the words of the White Paper, to identify and discuss alternative policy options. We would all concede that, despite the great improvements of the last few years, our present system of control is not satisfactory.
But the question arises whether to insert into the system this group of business men inside the Cabinet Office, who no doubt will be doing programme budgeting in all directions, will improve matters. I am certainly not against business men in government—indeed, we appointed a considerable number—but I cannot believe that this, as opposed to advising on industrial policy, is their proper job.
My doubts are these. It is ironic that the enthusiasm stirred up for programme budgeting by the hon. Member for Guildford and others should coincide with a growing scepticism on the subject in the United States and indeed a certain retreat from it. That does not mean that I am against experimenting with it, and some Departments, like Education, already have done this. Indeed, I am strongly in favour of it, but it is very important not to think that this will be a panacea.
My next doubt is that I am inclined to feel that there is less expertise on this subject in industry now than there is in government. My next doubt is whether inserting a new cog into the machine will not slow down the whole business of expenditure appraisal. It is already both weak and slow. This is so even
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under the Treasury, which has the staff, the experience and the political influence and power within Whitehall.
I believe that this whole process will become still slower if it is conducted additionally by a small group of inevitably ignorant outsiders in the Cabinet office. Especially, one has to remember, as the Leader of the House said, that in any really complicated decision or choice between options, at the end of the day the matter will come down to a subjective or political judgment. There will remain too many unmeasurable factors to enable the judgment to be taken simply on cost-benefit grounds or whatever it may be.
Given that, at the end of the day, almost all these judgments are political, and a matter of political values, I think that it is much better that the initial appraisal should be carried out by officials directly responsible to a Minister and not by this roving group of outside business men with their vague position in the Cabinet Office. But, again, as I said to my hon. Friend, let us try the thing by all means—these are not matters of basic principle—and if it works out, well and good.
The Leader of the Opposition called this a mixed bag when he commented on the White Paper. Except for the Ministry of Overseas Development point, we are prepared to give the other experiments a reasonable chance. Indeed, we hope that they will work and we will wait to see how they work. So we do not intend to vote against the White Paper. At any rate, the new machinery of government, whether it works or not, could not possibly produce worse or more reactionary decisions than the existing one that we have had for the last few weeks.
5.13 p.m.
Mr. Sydney Chapman: I am glad to be able to make my maiden speech in this important debate.
It is usual for a new Member to say something about his immediate predecessor. For me, this is a positive privilege. Sir Edward Boyle, now Lord Boyle of Handsworth, commanded great respect and affection from both sides of the House. He served my constituents with distinction for nearly 20 years and

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Handsworth is a better known place for his having been its M.P. So long as courage, compassion and conscience are the hallmarks of this House, the name of Edward Boyle will be remembered.
It was, of course, a deliberate decision of his to accept the Vice-Chancellorship of Leeds University. Handsworth's loss is Leeds University's gain, and, if I might dare to say so, this House's loss is the other place's gain. After the antics on Leeds campus reported in the weekend newspapers, I might say that he has left the tranquil waters of this House for the turbulent seas of university life. Although I cannot hope to match his talents, I hope that his talents will not be lost to the service of our nation in the years to come.
Handsworth, of course, is part of the great city of Birmingham, which in turn is part of a massive conurbation. Handsworth has problems to match this description. One of the greatest is that parts are physically declining in appearance. I am ashamed to say that one or two parts of my constituency, like parts of other towns and cities in our Kingdom, are a disgrace physically and a blot on the conscience of any nation that calls itself civilised. There is a feeling, not only here but outside, that politicians and Parliament have for too long talked about pollution in all its forms and that the time has come to act.
Therefore, on behalf of my constituents and speaking also as an architect and town planner, I welcome the White Paper because it restructures Government to deal with the problem of environment. I can speak with only a little knowledge in relation to this debate on the problems of environment. I believe that the new Department proposed embraces some of the functions that most affect our environment, although not all. What I consider to be the arch polluter of our age, the aeroplane, apparently is not within the orbit of its responsibilities. I wish the Secretary of State, his three Ministers and four Under-Secretaries every success in dealing with the massive problem of the increasing pollution of our land. They will need every piece of energy and influence to muster the resources to deal with it.
I also welcome this Department because, for the first time in our history,
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I believe, the Government recognise that the problems of environment are and should be a primary political issue and should take equal place with the other such issues. For too long, the environment has been spared only if it is convenient to economic considerations. I believe that not only economic consideration but other ones should determine the style and the results of our Government. I believe that we are moving into an age, if not a decade, in which more and more people want to see the environment protected. That is a popular statement, but sometimes unpopular decisions have to be made.
I believe that people are viewing with greater concern, for example, the pylons that are strangling and straddling beautiful parts of our countryside. I believe that people are becoming more conscious of Ministerial decisions as to the position of a brewery and whether it should be placed in the countryside, and I believe that there are other than economic considerations which should determine, for example, whether there should be opencast mining in a beautiful estuary in Wales.
Of course this debate is not on environment, but it is on the structure of Government to deal with environment, and I would make two brief points on that, the first of which is directly related to that new structure of Government. It would be eminently suitable if the new Government at their convenience, brought to this House a new Environment Bill, which, apart from extending legislation, would consolidate all the different pieces of legislation that there have been in the last few years. Whether it is the Litter Act, the Clean Air Act, the Civic Amenities Act, perennial Housing Acts or biennial Town and Country Planning Acts, there should be a consolidating environment Act because of the importance of the environment. I put that forward as a constructive proposal.
Secondly, for too long people have thought in terms of the environment and planning the environment in its negative aspects. It is time for the Government to make it a positive instrument of policy. After the war the National Parks were set up—and now there are ten of them—whose aim was to preserve the beauty of some of the most beautiful parts of our countryside. I see no reason—and I offer

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this as a suggestion—why the Government should not designate urban parks which would eradicate the worst scars of some of our conurbations and, through a positive plan, try to improve the environment in the worst parts rather than keep the environment of the best parts of our landscape.
Pollution and the threat to the environment is increasing at a rapid pace. It is gaining momentum the whole time. I would hope—and I am delighted to hear that the Opposition do not intend to divide the House on the part of the White Paper dealing with the environment—that there might be a bi-partisan approach to this pressing political problem. I recognise the start made to deal with the environment by the last Government. I recall the parts of the Housing Act, 1969, dealing with conservation and improvement areas. I also recognise their setting up of the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution, although I am tempted to observe that I hope that its conclusions are a little more pointed than the long-windedness of its title.
A start has been made. The nation demands that this Parliament shall take a decision to safeguard the environment. If we succeed, the people will look back at this Parliament with pride. If we fail to act in this decade, one thing is certain: we shall become the curse of future generations.
5.23 p.m.
Mr. J. Grimond: It is very pleasant to be asked on behalf of the House to congratulate the hon. Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Mr. Chapman) on his maiden speech. It was a most admirable speech made on a most important subject.
I should like to echo the hon. Gentleman's remarks about his predecessor, Lord Boyle. We greatly miss that large and friendly figure. We hope that every now and again he will wander down the corridors, genially wringing his hands over the follies of his own and other parties, and that he will not be entirely lost to the Commons atmosphere. As the hon. Gentleman said, Lord Boyle was universally liked and universally respected. He added greatly to our debates and shed a certain liberal lustre on some dark patches in the Conservative Party.
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The hon. Gentleman's speech was devoted largely to the effects of the proposed changes in government on the very important question of pollution and what can be done about it. No doubt the House will be anxious to hear from the hon. Gentleman on future occasions and will welcome his remarks about Birmingham because, in spite of all that may have been done in that great city, a lot remains to be done. On behalf of us all, I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his maiden speech.
I join the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) in thanking the Consumer Council. I do so all the more readily because it used to be presided over by an excellent lady who is my step-great-aunt-in-law. I am a little more critical than was the right hon. Gentleman of that White Paper. I agree with him that our system of government needs to be improved, although I should have thought that the time was coming when constant changes in the responsibilities of Ministries must be a little upsetting for the civil servants who work in them.
However, I am not sure that the proposed scheme strikes at what to me are some of the main faults. First, there is a great need to strengthen the democratic element in government. To me, the democratic process means not only scrutiny by the House of Commons, but a flow of information to members of the public and to their elected representatives in a workable and usable form. Certainly it means strengthening the main current of common sense so that the opinions of bureaucrats anxious to press their interests are tested against the general will.
I agree with the right hon. Member for Grimsby that ultimately most of the decisions of government must be a political or value judgment. Had there been more readiness to accept this, we might have avoided some of the appalling waste in the aircraft industry, some of the disasters resulting from worship of size and bad planning and some of the pollution of the environment to which the hon. Member for Handsworth referred, and we could have had less worship of bureaucracy, technocracy and size for the sake of size. There is a need for constant audits, examinations or inquests on Government policies. We look back to see whether particular economic

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measures have succeeded or failed. But we constantly pass legislation on social matters—for instance, immigration, race relations, and so on—and seldom take much trouble to discover whether it is working. The decision-making machinery of government, with which the White Paper largely deals, certainly needs improvement. There is also a need to pinpoint responsibility.
A major criticism of the Government proposal is that they have shown no awareness of the need to strengthen the democratic process. We are provided with a Green Paper on the House of Commons, but it deals only with the structure of the Select Committee system. We want to go a good deal further. It is impossible to decide which reforms are needed unless we see where the present government have failed, and they have failed primarily, not in connection with the difficulties in Whitehall, but in making government acceptable to the people.
There is a great deal of talk about alienation and, although it is a hackneyed word, it points to one of the fundamental failures of government. Paragraph 2 of the White Paper points out that the Government have placed an excessive burden on the people. There may well be too much government, but that is not argued in the White Paper. It is at least arguable that, although people may feel burdened by government, they equally feel that government is too remote and bureaucratic. I am not sure that the people think that the Government offer them too many services. It is much more probable that they feel that they do not always offer the right services and that the social services are too paternalist in their manner. The White Paper criticises the quality of many decisions taken over the last 25 years. Much of the fault lies in the fact that decisions are formulated in the recesses of bureaucratic processes, far removed from public scrutiny, and I cannot see that the White Paper will improve that situation.
I turn to the main proposal for grouping many departments under two main heads—Industry and Trade and the Environment. There is a case for this, and the White Paper makes it, but I would like to ask three questions on the general principle of this grouping.
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What exactly will be the function of the overlord Minister? We are told that he will have final responsibility, but even after listening to the Lord President I am not at all clear what will be the division of responsibility between the various Ministers.
I thought the criticism which was made by the right hon. Member for Grimsby was entirely justified when he pointed out the vast scope of the subjects covered by the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Technology. I wonder how one man will straddle this enormous Department of Government. Up to now there has been concern that the Board of Trade alone was possibly too big; now it will be bigger still. It may be that one Minister will not straddle these Departments and that, as the Lord President said, there will be a great deal of delegation. If that is so, wherein lies the fundamental difference in depth which these proposals claim? I am always slightly suspicious of White Papers which tell us that their contents are radically new departures or will do something which has never been done before. It is like people who begin a sentence with, "In all honesty I will tell you"—one knows what a big lie will follow. If individual Ministers are to be left with much the same powers as they have now, where is the great new departure which the opening paragraphs of the White Paper promise? What is to be the rôle of the Treasury in economic planning? Is it to take a subordinate rôle?
The other proposal on which I would like to comment is the multi-disciplinary central review staff. "Multi-disciplinary" is a new word in the political vocabulary. It may be said that Lord Rothschild is a multi-disciplinary man, but that does not shed much light upon what he will do in this job. It is a criticism of Government that sometimes it has been alleged that senior civil servants are out of sympathy with their chiefs. Here we have the appointment of a man who has been considered to belong to a different party from his chief, and to have a big-business socialist peer as the head of this multi-disciplinary Department seems at first sight extremely odd.
I agree with what the right hon. Member for Grimsby said about the tasks which are to be given to Lord Rothschild.

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Paragraph 47 of the White Paper tells us that the business of the unit will be to enable Ministers—
"to take better policy decisions by assisting them to work out the implications of their basic strategy in terms of policies in specific areas, to establish the relative priorities to be given to the different sectors of their programme as a whole, to identify those areas of policy in which new choices can be exercised and to ensure that the underlying implications of alternative courses of action are fully analysed and considered."
I had always understood that this is what Government Departments are supposed to do, and that the Minister at the head of the Department was supposed to relate his policies one to another. It is an interesting insight to me that Ministers preside over Departments which are apparently unable to perform those tasks and are themselves incapable of working out the implications of their basic strategy. It may be true, but it is rather alarming to be told so at this late date.
In addition to that, it is suggested that the unit will have certain responsibilities between Ministries and will relate individual Departmental policies to Government strategy as a whole. Surely this is the job of the Cabinet. If the Cabinet is unable to perform it, it may be not unreasonable to strengthen the Cabinet Office; but we are told by the Lord President that Lord Rothschild's unit will be rather different from the Cabinet Office.
As the right hon. Gentleman said, the man who springs at once to mind is Lord Lindemann who roved about the Departments picking out individual policies here and there, getting some right and some wrong, and spreading chaos and extreme irritation throughout the public service. I very much doubt if we want to repeat that now. I should have thought that a roving commission of interference would be the last thing to expedite decisions or to make responsibility clearer. If this is simply strengthening the Cabinet Office it seems strange that a Government which is intent on reducing the number of civil servants should be adding others to the existing machinery of Government without making any reductions.
My final main criticism of the whole attitude is that it seems to perpetuate the myth that the ultimate decisions of
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Government between, say, houses and roads or the social services and a presence east of Suez can be done on a cost-effective basis. This is one of the prime reasons why government in this country has been wrong since the war. Government is about value judgments, political judgments, and any elected government has to take decisions on political lines. It can get all the advice it wants. To have a Lord Rothschild to cost up whether there should be secondary education or more hospitals is a nonsense. If he is not to do more than that though, he will merely be an extra cog in the Civil Service and confuse the channels rather than relieve them.
I believe that the Government in many ways are embarking on a genuine attempt to improve the machinery of government from their own point of view, but I beg them to consider that this is a political matter. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite form a political Government which will ultimately be judged upon whether their decisions are politically acceptable at least to their own supporters and ideally to the nation at large. So far we have had very little indication that the Government are aware of this. The claims of the White Paper are greatly exaggerated even in what it attempts to cover, and it does not even attempt to touch on the fundamental matter facing this country, which is how to make democratic government not only more efficient, which it should be, but more acceptable to the people at large.
5.37 p.m.
Mr. Peter Emery: As the first Member on this side of the House to speak after the maiden speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Mr. Chapman), I join the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) in congratulating him on what I think we all agree was an excellent, concise and interesting maiden speech. No doubt the traditional welcome to a new hon. Member that we look forward to hearing him again is said sometimes with tongue in cheek, but all hon. Members who heard the hon. Member for Handsworth will, I am sure, honestly and willingly accede to that traditional welcome. His tribute to his predecessor Edward Boyle will be echoed by all. I have known him for

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many years and his absence from the House is a great loss.
The subject of this debate concerning Government in the long term is as important as anything which we might be discussing today. There is a creaking situation in the political control of the machinery of administration. Members of Parliament and Ministers, who are in their positions because they are the more senior Members of Parliament of the party in power, must grasp full management responsibility for the implementation of Government policy. This cannot and should not be left to the admirable activities of the Civil Service. It should be made clear that nothing in this debate is to be taken as criticism of the activities of probably the finest Civil Service that has ever existed, or indeed exists, in the world today.
I wish to say at the outset that I welcome the White Paper itself. What I find a little strange is that in paragraph 3 the Government do not expand further on what was a major part of Conservative thinking when in Opposition, namely, the attainment of better value for money spent by Government. As many hon. Members know, I am connected with aspects of procurement and I therefore declare a small interest. I feel sad that at this stage it has not been thought wise to elaborate on the structure of procurement within Government Departments. I should like to have seen a revamping and revitalising of the control of procurement, not only in aircraft and in defence but over the whole structure of Government purchasing. I hope that before long the Government will be able to make some announcements about obtaining better value for money.
Paragraph 12(v) of the White Paper on page 5 stresses the necessity for better opportunities to discuss and challenge Government policies. I agree completely with that approach, and I wonder how the Government see this opportunity being given to the House of Commons. I agree that the power of the executive in controlling the machinery of Government must become greater, and each year that passes will mean that this power is likely to become more comprehensive. The greater the managerial control and the greater the managerial efficiency of Government the greater the effect is likely to be. I should like to hear how the
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Government see the House of Commons being brought into this process by being given more opportunity to discuss and challenge policy factors.
Perhaps I could make two suggestions. The first concerns the matter of questioning Ministers. It is about time that the traditional Question hour was made a little longer. A 25 per cent. increase in Question Time, although it might not necessarily be welcomed by Ministers, would allow the opportunity of more Questions and more supplementaries and would give back-bench Members a chance to get more out of Ministers than they have been able to obtain in the past, whichever Government has been in power. Anybody who has been in the House for very long knows that any Minister who does not wish to give any information away is able only too easily to stonewall and the Member concerned is left without an adequate answer. I do not know whether an increase in Question Time will make any difference, but at least it will be a step in the right direction, and I believe that the House as a whole would welcome an extension. It would mean cutting into the time of an ordinary debate, but there can be little doubt that Question Time is the part of the proceedings of the House that attracts most attention outside the House.
I should like to mention the Green Paper on the operation of the Select Committees of the House of Commons, which must be taken in conjunction with the White Paper on Reorganisation of Central Government. I appreciate that we shall be debating the Green Paper on some other occasion, but I wonder whether the Minister who is to reply to this debate will be able to say something about the specialist Select Committees under the new Select Committee on Expenditure which is envisaged. No doubt the subcommittees will be given specific tasks: I understand that they are not to be departmental in character but much more all-embracing. Have the Government and the Leader of the House considered sub-committees to deal particularly with expenditure appraisal or supply analysis? This to my mind is all important in challenging the spending of the Government and its power over public spending. Therefore, it should be for the House to be able to analyse in much greater detail how expenditure has been incurred and

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how the policies envisaged have been carried through.
Mr. Whitelaw: Perhaps I could intervene to save a little time in debate. If the House approves the idea of setting up a Select Committee on Expenditure, naturally it will be for that Select Committee when set up to decide how it should do its work and what sub-committees it should create.
Mr. Emery: I thank my right hon. Friend for that helpful indication. The point I am trying to make is that before we set up such a Select Committee or come to any agreement on the Green Paper, we should have some idea of what the Committee will do. If the Government are thinking of allowing greater opportunity for the House to discuss and challenge Government expenditure, we all appreciate that such a process does not exist in this Chamber at present, as it does in a number of other legislatures. I refer in particular to the United States Senate, which has been able to challenge certain defence expenditure and to reveal massive overruns of cost factors, matters which would not have come to light without the challenging investigatory action of a Committee of the House of the Senate.
Paragraph 14 of the White Paper deals with the aggregation of functions and the size of large Departments. A great deal has been made by Members on both sides of the House of the massiveness of the Ministry of Technology when it was created. I refer to it as a soft-centred octopus, as I believe it was. I hope to ensure that the Ministry of Trade and Industry does not in any way emulate that type of massive managerial problem that was created in the Ministry of Technology. It seems to me that that can be avoided only if the division of responsibility of junior Ministers is made abundantly clear. Their responsibility must be a real responsibility which enables them to make decisions and to carry out proper managerial functions without the necessity at all times to refer matters to the Minister in charge.
Mr. Douglas: Does not the hon. Gentleman concede that the answer given to me by the Leader of the House is contradictory to that, in that the right
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hon. Gentleman went on further to say that this issue of responsibility devolved completely on the Secretary of State? In other words, there is no devolution here at all. What the hon. Gentleman is asking for will not be obtained.
Mr. Emery: Perhaps I might answer the question for myself and not have words put into my mouth. I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. If one uses parallels within industry, it is possible for responsibility for a major function of a large corporate structure to be given to one manager or director who is the only person answerable to the main board for the actions which he controls. In such a case, nevertheless, some of his managers will often have complete responsibility for carrying out the tasks given, in this instance by the Minister, to the team working under him.
I am sorry that there is no mention in the White Paper of the greater use of junior Ministers. If we are to be able to manage properly a Department such as the Trade and Industry Department, the Minister will be killed by overwork unless we ensure that not only his Ministers but his junior Ministers have responsibility for some sections of the Department.
Someone ought to put in a plea for the junior Minister and his position in the salary structure of government. I do not know how many people realise that a junior Minister is paid only £5,000 a year and that, when he takes office, frequently he loses some aspects of his expense allowances which ordinary backbench Members are able to claim for running the two homes which may be necessary for a Member to fulfil his constituency engagements. I know of one Minister—I will not embarrass him by naming him—who had to sell his London some on being appointed a junior Minister. His financial loss is a major contribution which he is making to the country's administration.
It cannot be right to have a department like the Trade and Industry Department with four or five junior Ministers earning £5,000 a year each having to cope with administrative decisions concerned with the running of the country when, in companies like Shell, those who make similar decisions receive much greater rewards. I am told that Shell has over 100 managerial people working in the United

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Kingdom who are on salaries of over £5,000 a year. I do not suggest that the Government should grasp this nettle at the moment. With present inflationary trends, it would be wrong to give junior Ministers an increase now. But we should have an assurance from this debate that the position of the junior Minister should not be such that he is asked to make a financial contribution to the State because he is obliged to suffer considerable hardship in carrying out his duties.
Mr. William Rodgers: I support what the hon. Gentleman said. He referred to a junior Minister getting £5,000 a year. However, that is inclusive of his expenses as a Member of Parliament. The sum that he gets to support his family and carry out his other commitments is considerably less than £3,750. I do not say that that is not a considerable sum, but obviously the hon. Gentleman is right in what he says.
Mr. Emery: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's support. I hope that I have made it clear that the expenses position is such as to decrease the sum available for a junior Minister to keep himself and his family.
I wish to congratulate the Government on what has been termed the demise of the I.R.C. I am glad that it has gone. It may have done some job initially, but it has outlived any benefit that it could have given to the further amalgamation of British industry. After all, if the market is unable to cope with such amalgamations, one begins immediately to wonder whether investment should be made in the type of company which results.
However, I ask the Government to have second thoughts about the phasing-out of the Consumer Council. I am all in favour of the £250,000 saving that is involved, but should not the Council be phased out over 12 months or some similar period in order to give it an opportunity to investigate the possibilities of finding other finance so that it might continue? It does not perform the same functions as the Consumer Association, and reports have been circulated by the Association deploring the belief that it can do all that the Consumer Council is doing. There is a good deal of support for some of the Council's work, and, since this sort of
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organisation should be made to finance itself, rather than give it a continual subsidy, I believe that it should be phased out over a period of time so that it can see whether it can raise the money to enable it to continue.
I turn, then, to the position of the new secretariat. I hope that it will become a Prime Ministerial secretariat. In many ways, the Prime Minister is at a disadvantage in that he has no direct Department which can provide him the sort of information which any other Minister can obtain from his Department.
I do not accept the criticism that the cost-effectiveness studies of the secretariat will duplicate and be of little use to government in general. One of the weaknesses of government in the past is that too much major policy has been introduced without an overall cost-effectiveness study being carried out on an inter-departmental basis. When one or two Departments have controlled Government expenditure, they have often had a vested interest in trying to ensure that expenditures should continue in the way in which they were started.
No one has carried out a cost-effectiveness study of the best way of allocating funds for regional development. We have had the Government giving grants to industry for the building of factories to entice industry to areas of high unemployment. I frequently wonder whether at least a portion of the money devoted to the enticement of industry spent on the infrastructure within the area—I refer particularly in the South-West to the building of the necessary roads and communications to allow industry to go to that area—would not have shown equally good results for considerably less expenditure. That kind of cost-effectiveness study cannot be dealt with by an inter-Departmental committee. That is why I welcome the cost-effectiveness potential of the new secretariat.
There is room for criticism in the White Paper that so little has been said about the improvement of the modern management technique factors which Fulton stressed considerably in the further extension of the Civil Service College and the application of greater functional responsibility within the managerial control of the Civil Service. This was closely argued in an intriguing chapter of the Fulton Report, but we

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have not seen evidence that much of this has been carried out. Therefore, I hope that, during the winding up, we shall hear that the Government have left this out in error rather than by design.
I hope that the Minister will not respond to the criticism made by the right hon. Member for Grimsby on the limitations of the programme planning budget. Although it is not being carried out as originally instituted by Mr. Charles Schwartz, it is being increased, not decreased, by the American financial structure of the Bureau of the Budget. I have reason for saying that. I was speaking to Mr. Charles Schwartz in Washington only last week. Therefore, the Minister should bear in mind that the modifications which have been carried through have led to a considerable advantage in the governmental and financial control of policy.
My last major point concerns paragraph 53, "Review of Departmental Tasks". This is meant to be a White Paper based on advanced managerial judgments. There ought to be a date at which that review is finally carried out. The Government have set a date on one of their activities, which will be reporting by April next year, but they have not set a date for finalisation of the review. A date should be set as a matter of managerial efficiency to try to ensure that a time scale is met.
I welcome the statement in the White Paper about further consideration of the hiving off from the Government and the Civil Service of control of administration which could be carried out by others. Anything that is done to alleviate the heavy burden on the Civil Service in the overall administration of government ought to be welcomed, because the task is so great. Therefore, I accept the White Paper, but only as a first stage in the modernisation of the political control of the nation's administration. We need to go much further; more is needed to follow up this White Paper.
We cannot replace by management technique, by new review bodies or by all the aspects of modern science, the proper control of a Department by a strong Minister. He is the man who must be responsible to this House, and I hope that we shall see him assisted, not
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limited, by the suggestions in this document.
6.5 p.m.
Mr. Reg Prentice: I agree with the hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) about the status of junior Ministers. This is one aspect of the reorganisation of government which will require the closest attention in the period ahead. My experience as a junior Minister was under the benevolent leadership of my right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland), who was Secretary of State for Education and Science when I was Minister of State. This was an entirely happy relationship—at least on my part. I do not know about him. I think that we worked things out fairly well. But in a Department the size of the Department of Education and Science clearly there were real problems about the authority of junior Ministers and a need for the closest definition of their authority.
This problem becomes more serious, and can easily go wrong, in the vast Departments which have grown up since. I am thinking of the Department of Health and Social Security, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and, even more so, the giant Departments proposed in the White Paper.
Two points must be stressed. First, the sheer physical strain upon the head of a big Department has to be considered. There is a tendency for officials to pass all major decisions—and perhaps some which are not so major—to the head of the Department rather than go to a junior Minister. There is a tendency for people always to want to see the top man, or, if they have seen a junior Minister, to appeal to the top man. Therefore, potential strain on the Minister is a real problem.
The second point that I would stress is that it is important that people with a close interest in the affairs of the Department should be able to identify their problems with a particular Minister and to know that he has real responsibilities. For example, in public health it is important that the doctors, the nurses, and everyone else concerned should know which Minister within the Department of Health and Social Security has day-to-day responsibility for health matters. They should hold him responsible. They should

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take him their problems and complaints and know that he has authority to make real decisions. This must apply throughout the whole sphere. Otherwise, we get a fudging of responsibility which is bad for government and for democracy.
I want to speak mainly on the decision to transfer the Ministry of Overseas Development within the scope of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I know that this is to be debated separately when the Order is before the House, but I believe that it is for the convenience of the House that, when that debate takes place after ten o'clock, it should be relatively brief. It is also important that this decision should feature within the wider debate. It is the most controversial single decision in the White Paper, and it is bitterly opposed by the Opposition. It is also a decision which will have the biggest impact on the outside world. This decision has been greeted with interest and comment outside Britain to a greater extent than in Britain itself.
This is a foolish, unnecessary decision. it is a decision quite unrelated to any argument of merit connected with the aid programme. It is a decision which, to my knowledge, has not been supported by any authoritative group or authoritative individual in this country concerned with the aid programme and matters arising from it. Throughout the world this decision will indicate a downgrading of the aid programme so far as this Government are concerned. Whether that impression is fair or not remains to be seen by experience, but that impression is given by the decision.
I believe that the Ministry of Overseas Development since 1964 has been a success story. It has had within its ranks civil servants of the first order, and although it is not in accordance with our traditions to mention those who are in office at the moment, I think we all recognise that in the late Permanent Secretary, Sir Andrew Cohen, who died suddenly in June, 1968, we had one of the most distinguished civil servants of his generation. It is a Department which is not only well served at the top, but which attracts some of the brightest and most dedicated new recruits to the Civil Service in the Administrative and Executive Grades. They opt for the M.O.D. because it is the Department in
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which they want to serve, and in which they recognise the value of its work.
The Department has made the administration of our aid programme more efficient and more relevant to its purposes, and as a result of my experience in the Department and that gained overseas, both in developing countries and in other donor countries, two impressions were uppermost in my mind. One was the impression of disappointment that Britain was not fulfilling the 1 per cent. pledged in terms of overseas aid and that we were making slower progress towards that than many other European countries and other donor countries outside Europe.
The other impression was that the Department itself, and the administration of the aid programme, was recognised everywhere as one of the most efficient aid agencies anywhere in the world. This was recognised at the United Nations. It was recognised at the World Bank. It was recognised in the Development Assistance Committee of the O.E.C.D. Most important of all, it was recognised in the developing countries themselves.
We are therefore bound to ask the Government why, and on what grounds they are proposing this move, because no adequate reason for it is given in the White Paper, and to date no reason has been given for it by any Government spokesman. Indeed, in a curious way the White Paper argues against this decision. I agree with my right hon. Friend's analysis of the White Paper. I think that it is a curious document. The word that crops up most frequently is "functional". There is a whole section on what is called the functional approach, and we are told about
"the application of the functional principle as the basis for the allocation of responsibilities".
However, in paragraph 34, which deals with overseas aid, we are told:
"They"—
that is the Government—
"recognise, however, that the management of overseas aid is a function distinct from the general conduct of foreign affairs"
and the paragraph goes on to explain that because it is a distinct function its administration will still have a good deal of autonomy within the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, but if that is so it is difficult to recognise any reason why the move should have been made.

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The only reason that I can assume for the change is that this is part of the Prime Minister's gimmickry by which he wants to give the impression that because there are fewer Government Departments there is less government, and therefore there are fewer civil servants and thus there is a saving of public money. The fact is that this move will have no effect whatsoever in reducing the number of civil servants or in saving public money unless, of course, there is to be some reduction of the aid programme itself, which is certainly not envisaged in the White Paper.
I might be asked, if there is to be a good deal of autonomy for this section of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, does this change really matter? Has anything been lost by this move? I put it to the House that four things have been lost. First, the status of the Minister as a Minister of Cabinet rank able to go to the Cabinet itself and argue for his Department is of immense value in relation to a subject of this kind. Although all parties in the House are committed to the principle of overseas development, to the 1 per cent. target, and to various other objectives that have been accepted internationally, we recognise that there is a good deal of public opinion which thinks otherwise, that there are leading newspapers which regularly have editorials attacking the whole concept of overseas aid, and that in practice the degree of commitment of individual Cabinet Ministers in any Government will vary from one individual to the next.
There is, of course, a spectrum of opinion on overseas aid within the present Conservative Cabinet. There was a spectrum of opinion within the Labour Cabinet. There were those who were very enthusiastic and committed, ranging through to those who tended to be hostile. Most dangerous of all are those in the middle who are vaguely in favour of overseas aid, but who would not give it a high priority in terms of their day-to-day thinking. In that sort of situation, there are occasions in the life of any Government when the Minister whose main responsibility this work is ought to be able to go to the Cabinet and argue his case. All five Ministers of Overseas Development during the period of the
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Labour Government had to fight for the size of their programmes at various times, and we did not lose all those fights. The programme which I always regarded as being too low, and which I still regard in the same light, might have been lower, and indeed it would have been lower if we had not dedicated Ministers who knew their case.
If the aid programme depends upon the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary, it depends, first, on his having the time to master this intricate subject. Second, it depends upon his own commitment to it. As one who frequently criticised the present Foreign Secretary, I can tell the House that I have no doubt whatever about the right hon. Gentleman's commitment to the concept of overseas aid and development. I know that he is keen to see at least the present programme, if not a larger one, but we are now in the position that the future size of the aid programme will be rather a matter of chance, because Foreign Secretaries will be appointed for reasons other than this, and the degree of commitment of a future Foreign Secretary will vary as it varies with other people. As I understand it, under the new arrangement—if I am wrong I hope to be corrected—the Minister for Overseas Development will not be able to take his argument further than the Foreign Secretary's desk. In other words, if he cannot convince the Foreign Secretary on a point, he will have no right to argue against the Foreign Secretary in the Cabinet.
When dealing with this important subject there should be a Minister in a position to do that, not only because of the size of the problem, and not only because of the work of this Department, but because from time to time the Cabinet inevitably considers programmes of private investment overseas, of trade arrangements as varied as overseas students' fees, and all kinds of controversial matters which affect developing countries. Ministers will address their minds to these problems, inevitably, mainly in terms of self-interest. It is important that there should be a Minister who can be a spokesman for the developing world—I like the phrase "shop steward for the developing world"—and state his point of view to the Cabinet. Indeed, this is the reason why there should not

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only be a Minister for Overseas Development, but why he should be a full member of the Cabinet.
My second fear is that the allocation of the aid programme may be affected by the new arrangements. This is something that can only be proved or disproved by experience over the next few years. Under the arrangements which have existed hitherto, the aid framework as it is called is discussed between all the Departments and worked out with the Ministry of Overseas Development. It is discussed with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, with the Board of Trade and with the Treasury, and the points of view of the other Departments have to be taken into consideration. To date the M.O.D. has won a large proportion of the arguments, and I think that our aid programme in the main stands up, though perhaps not 100 per cent., to the test that it is allocated according to developmental criteria, and not according to day-to-day departmental pressures, or day-to-day commercial advantages.
I fear that under these new arrangements the authority of the officials primarily concerned with this work may be lessened because they will no longer be an independent department on their own. Indeed, some of those who advocated this change may have wanted to alter the basis of the aid programme along these lines. If there are those in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office who had this view I tell them that they are being foolish from a diplomatic point of view, apart from any other point of view, because the best way in which the aid programme can serve the long-term interests of Britain is that it should be an effective programme, geared to development. If aid is used as a diplomatic bribe and turned on and off like a tap it will not have the same impact upon development.
The important point about development aid is that it should be long-term. We should always recognise that it forms only a small part of the development programme of a developing country, and that if it is to be of maximum value to a developing country that country needs to know as far ahead as possible what kind of help it can expect to receive and in what form it can expect to receive it. The whole process can be rendered ineffective if diplomatic considerations
914
enter into it too much. It would be bad diplomacy in the long run, apart from all the other arguments.
My third point is that even it there is no change of direction and in priorities as a result of this machinery change, it will nevertheless seem to the developing world that a change is intended. Here I am in a sense making a diplomatic point. We are concerned here with a subject which forms a major part of our relationship with two-thirds of the world. We are concerned here with a vital part of our overseas policy. It has always been greatly appreciated by people in developing countries that there is in London a Department geared to their needs and understanding their problems. They will feel that there is a great loss here even if the same programme goes on being administered without any change.
My fourth point is that the same reaction will occur at home. The creation of the Ministry of Overseas Development was an expression of our concern about world poverty and our involvement in the struggle to raise living standards. It was a great encouragement to all those people who have been loosely described as the aid lobby but who would rather be called the development lobby. I am speaking of the people who work with Oxfam, Christian Aid, War on Want, and similar organisations. They are dedicated people—a minority of our population but a growing minority, especially among young people. Although they frequently criticised the Ministry of Overseas Development—as they had every right to do; when I was Minister I welcomed their criticism—the fact is that a kind of de facto alliance existed between the Ministry and these groups, because we were all engaged in the task of trying to persuade a wider public that this subject deserved greater priority. These people are greatly discouraged by this move.
I do not know how many hundreds of letters have been received in the Government from people within the aid lobby objecting to this move. I hope that we may be told by one of the Ministers who will speak later tonight. If not, I may put down a Question next week. I should also like to know how many letters have been received supporting the move. It would be interesting to see whether

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there have been any, and how they stack up with those opposing the move. It is no coincidence that a Government who are insensitive to the feelings of the people in the developing world should also be insensitive to the feelings of some of the most internationally-minded people in our community.
In conclusion, I want to make two points about the future, assuming that this measure will be approved by the House tonight. My first refers to the question of the accountability of the Government to the House of Commons for overseas development matters. Earlier today the Leader of the House was speaking about Parliamentary scrutiny, and in particular he said that if the new arrangements for Question Time did not work out well he would be glad to look at them again. One of the effects of this change is that we lose the opportunity to question the Minister of Overseas Development separately. He does not have a separate slot in the order of Questions.
A few years ago there were four separate Cabinet Ministers all answering questions on overseas affairs—the Foreign Secretary, the Commonwealth Secretary, the Colonial Secretary and the Minister of Overseas Development. All four of these very important areas of policy—and all four are still very important—have come under the umbrella Department, and Questions on all four are answered at one go at Question Time under our new arrangements.
Meanwhile the Select Committee that existed in the last Parliament is to be reappointed only on a temporary basis, and is soon to be phased out, so that the opportunities for parliamentary questioning and examination of this vital subject are likely to be reduced in the new Parliament compared with the opportunities that were available in the previous one.
I make the point—and I hope that it will be conveyed to the Leader of the House—that in this subject we must have more frequent debates on overseas development. We have not had enough under any Government, and those that we have had have taken place because of the initiative of private Members. The hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Crouch) inflated the last, or the last but
916
one, on this subject. That will not do. The Government must find time in future for this subject.
We shall want to probe the contrast between the miserable inadequacy of the aid figures announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer last week and the enthusiastic clichés of the Prime Minister speaking in the General Assembly a week or so ago in which he pledged British support for the Second Development Decade. There is a great gap between what is being proposed in fact by the Government and what the Prime Minister seemed to be saying at the General Assembly, and particularly the aid figures announced by the Chancellor, even if they are all fulfilled—and they were aid ceilings—will lead to aid at rather less than 0·5 of 1 per cent. by 1975.
I close on this note: I believe the merger to be a bad step, but as a perennial optimist I am always looking for a chink of light if there is one to be found anywhere. I hope—not with any great optimism—that the Minister for Overseas Development and his Department will use such opportunities as they have in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to try to create within that Department a greater sense of reality about the importance of overseas development. I know that it is a generalisation and that generalisations are dangerous, but the prevailing view in the F.C.O. is that the part of the world that really matters is Europe and the North Atlantic area, and that the rest of the world is not to the same extent a matter of vital interest to Britain.
The prevailing view of many people in the Department, and of many people in the House, is that overseas aid is a nice charitable relationship, to be carried on on the margin of our affairs, and is not a vital part of our overseas policy.
If there is any good to be obtained from this merger I hope that it will be in the sense that an educational job can be done within the F.C.O. by the Overseas Development Department so that this country begins to approach something that it has not yet approached under any Government—a recognition of the fact that the relationship between the rich one-third and the poor two-thirds of the world is the most important political issue of our time—and the most important question that future generations will ask

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of us is whether our policies have lived up to the enormous challenge of the situation.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I would remind the House that a fair number of hon. Members still wish to speak and that short speeches will help.
6.30 p.m.
Mr. Patrick Cormack: I owe you, Mr. Speaker, and the House an apology because I have not been here for the whole of the debate, but I have been moved to try to catch your eye because the speeches that I have heard have been of an outstanding quality. This has seemed to me, as a new Member, one of the most constructive debates that I have had the pleasure to hear. I would like to say how much most of us on this side respect and admire the right hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice), who really put his principles into practice when he was in the last Government. I am sure that we all listened to his speech with great interest and great respect.
Having said that, I do not share his misgivings. I sincerely hope that he is wrong, and I know that he hopes he is wrong too. I feel that he will be proved wrong. It seems a fairly logical step to put overseas aid under the general umbrella of the Foreign Commonwealth Office. I feel as he does that in our Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary we have a man who really appreciates what overseas aid is all about. I believe that his Department is at one with him.
My party, when last in Government, had a record of which it has some reason to be proud. I believe that we shall have a record of which we can be even more proud during this period in government. The right hon. Gentleman certainly has my assurance, and I am sure that of everyone on this side, that we shall want to keep the Government up to their pledges in this respect, and I have no doubt that they will honour them. Overseas aid is, to put it no higher, the most important form of enlightened self-interest in which a nation can indulge.
I hope that I will be forgiven if my comments are somewhat at random because I want to pick up one or two
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other things that have been said in the debate. It seems to me that possibly the key note of this document is at the top of paragraph 2, which says:
"This Administration believes that government has been attempting to do too much."
There is another significant statement in paragraph 5, which says:
"The product of the review will be less government and better government. Less government, because its activities will be related to long-term strategy aimed at liberating private initiative and placing more responsibility on the individual and less on the State. It will be better government, because the tasks to be done will be better defined and, fewer in number, requiring fewer Ministers and fewer civil servants to carry them out."
To me, as a Conservative, this seems an admirable conception, but I shall watch carefully, as I know will most of my hon. Friends, to ensure that the execution is as admirable as the conception. We do not want to find that, in the last analysis, we have been tested and found wanting.
Several hon. Members have referred to the rÔle of Ministers junior and senior. Although it is vitally important that we should recognise the real rÔle of the junior Ministers, it is also vital to adapt Harry Truman's adage and realise that there is a place where the buck stops. One of the most important and significant things in the White Paper is that it tightens up the machinery of government. I hope that the new Ministers, particularly the Secretaries of State for the Environment and for Trade and Industry, will all adopt Pitt's phrase and take the stand that, being responsible, they direct, and that they will be responsible for all they direct. This is the absolute duty of every senior Minister.
Mr. Richard Marsh: This is a point which worries many people. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the two specific Departments of the Environment and Trade and Industry, both of which have very able Ministers. But does he think that it is possible for any man in ordinary life to carry any real degree of responsibility for these massive organisations? It just seems to me physically impossible.
Mr. Cormack: While the right hon. Gentleman has a point, we do have a Prime Minister, and we do not seem to question the fact that he has overall responsibility for everything. The right

919
hon. Gentleman is right to question this, but I believe that it makes sense to combine these functions within these two "super-Ministries", although I do not like the term. I believe that those in charge are admirably fitted to discharge their tremendous responsibilities. It makes sense to combine these environmental functions, for instance, under one man, who is ultimately responsible for all aspects of the environment.
My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Mr. Chapman), whose maiden speech I was privileged to hear, dwelt at length on the subject of the environment. The Government have now put the ball fairly and squarely in their own court. They have created a Department of the Environment and it is now incumbent upon them to ensure that they have done more than pay lip-service to an "in" word. I believe that they have, and that we shall see great results, but we shall all, on both sides, be right to probe and question to keep them up to the mark.
All sorts of things disturb me when we talk about the environment. Far too often, we give it a narrow definition, but, for instance, one of the most priceless parts of this country's heritage is our fine old country churches. I am not talking from a religious point of view. I happen to be a Christian, but that is totally immaterial in this respect. Most of us will recognise that, in our fine country churches, we do have a priceless heritage. At the moment, with the movement of population from the centre of many of our great cities, with the depopulation of many rural areas, many of these churches are falling into a sad state of disrepair. This is the sort of problem which should concern the Department for the Environment. We are reaching the stage when Governments should begin to consider their responsibilities in this direction as in others? When these things have gone, they have gone for ever, and it is the prime responsibility of Government, not only to protect citizens but also to conserve what is best in our environment. If this new Department, with its co-ordinated functions, discharges its responsibilities properly in this respect, then I think that the fears which have been expressed will prove to be unfounded. We have a duty
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to scrutinise and question to make sure that they are unfounded.
One could make the same comments about the Department of Trade and Industry. But even these great super-Ministries do not cover every aspect of their individual problems. We had a debate last week on the coal industry and I mentioned one particular problem which seems to concern both Ministries—the problem of derelict land, consequent upon disused workings, and the problems of open-cast, where these two Ministries have to get together and decide how best to restore to beauty and its original state countryside which has been despoiled long ago or is in the process of being despoiled to get coal out quickly. These are real problems for these people.
As my hon. Friend said, later generations will judge the success of this Administration by their success in tackling problems like this. We quite rightly get heated about all sorts of political controversies when they are debated in this place but in five, ten or 50 years these things will be footnotes in the history books—and perhaps not even that. What will not be a footnote is the state of the country in which we live and which we love. Therefore, let us by all means question and probe, but let us make sure that this structure of Government achieves its objects.
I want to refer to that part of the White Paper which deals with bringing businessmen into government. I accept the logic of this and I believe that it will work. At the same time, I have some misgivings about it. It is not the job of the businessman to run the Government but to run his business, and I do not accept that the two functions are totally similar. My hon. Friends will be looking with interest at the way in which Lord Rothschild and his team improve the overall efficiency and effectiveness of the Government, and I have merely sounded a note of warning.
I referred to what I consider to be the keynote of the White Paper. "Less government and not more" has been the cry of many of us for a long time. If this restructuring results in the Government concentrating their proper attention on their absolute responsibilities and not digressing into fields which are not their

921
preserve, they will make a significant contribution to the nation's history. I give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that their proposals will have this effect.
I often think that the functions of government can be summed up by a sporting analogy. The job of government is to ensure that the football pitch is marked out and that the linesmen and referee are present. They must then let the players get on with the game. If the White Paper leads to a tightening up and if this restructuring has the effect which I believe it will have, then it will prove to have been a milestone in the constitutional history of the country, and if a Division is called tonight I shall vote for the Government.
6.42 p.m.
Mr. Hugh Jenkins: I am tempted to comment on the issues raised by the hon. Member for Cannock (Mr. Cormack) because they are fascinating matters which greatly interest me. However, I take note of your guidance, Mr. Speaker, and will confine my remarks to a close examination of a single matter mentioned in the White Paper and, in doing so, I shall be as brief as I can.
We read on page 3 of the White Paper that the Government's review of the functions of government has had among other things the aim
"To improve the framework within which public policy is formulated by matching the field of responsibility of government departments to coherent fields of policy and administration."
This is the sort of general framework within which the proposals are set and this has been called the philosophy of the document. As to the particular form of implementing that philosophy, we are told on page 4:
"government departments should be organised by reference to the task to be done or the objective to be attained".
There we have the broad philosophy and the particular form of implementation. Then we come to the point about which I intend to spend the time available to me tonight, and this appears on page 10, where we read under the heading "Department of the Environment":
"the new department will be responsible for the whole range of functions which affect people's living environment. It will cover the planning of land—where people live, work, move and enjoy themselves. It will be responsible for the construction industries,
922
the housing programme, and for the transport industries, including public programmes of support and development for the means of transport. There is a need to associate with these functions responsibility for other major environmental matters"
That is the key phrase, "other major environmental matters", and the section goes on:
"the preservation of amenity, the protection of the coast and countryside, the preservation of historic towns and monuments, and the control of air, water and noise pollution: all of which must be pursued locally, regionally, nationally and in some cases internationally."
It specifically refers to
"the control of air, water and noise pollution"
That means all forms of pollution. If it did not, it would have said so. I do not think it can be argued that it was not the intention of the White Paper as originally written that the Minister for the Environment should not be responsible for the totality of noise pollution. If it had intended to exclude aircraft noise, it would have said so. It would have said "the control of air, water and noise pollution, except pollution by aircraft noise."
There being no exception, it must be intended that the Minister should be responsible for this type of pollution as well. It was rightly intended that the Minister should be totally responsible and be in control of aircraft noise as much as being in control of every other form of noise and pollution.
This is, of course, what is needed. Aircraft noise has not been effectively controlled and here was a chance to get it under control. But what went wrong? The Order which we shall be discussing later was, I presume, intended to follow up the intentions of the White Paper. The White Paper says that aircraft noise is to be effectively controlled, but apparently the Order says nothing of the sort. It leaves the whole question of aircraft noise within the control of the Department of Trade and Industry. Why has this change been made?
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must not drift into the debate which will take place on the Order. He knows that his Amendment is out of order.
Mr. Jenkins: You have pointed out, Mr. Speaker, correct as ever, that my Amendment is out of order. By that Amendment I sought to restore the Order to what I conceive was the intention of

923
the White Paper, but that is out of order and I must not discuss it.
A clue to what went wrong was possibly contained in a Written Answer given to me in reply to a Question on 27th October. I had
"asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry if he will reduce the number of night flights permitted at Heathrow Airport during next summer."
I was informed:
"No. I have decided to keep the limit of summer night jet flights at 3,500 for the summer of 1971 despite the growing operational and financial burden on the airlines that this restriction which has remained unchanged for several years, represents."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th October, 1970; Vol. 805, c. 91.]
In other words, amenity costs money. The Minister was saying that if he acceded to my request and had reduced the number of permitted night flights, there would have been a growing operational and financial burden on the airlines.
That means that if the separation envisaged in the White Paper had been put into effect, another powerful Minister would have been given the opportunity to question, perhaps in Cabinet, the decisions taken by the Secretary of State for Trade, and Industry, and it is possible that, as a result, the trade and industry of the country would have been injured.
That may be the secret. The Government discovered that what they proposed to do might have an adverse effect on our trade and industry, and they were not prepared to risk that for the sake of the environment. In any event, if there had been any such risk to our trade I believe that it would have been only short-term in most cases, as I hope to have an opportunity to argue later. The truth of the matter is that in the few days between the publication of the White Paper and the laying of the Order the Government had a change of mind. If we limit aircraft noise we reduce the income of the airlines and the airports, and we reduce the amount of money coming into the country. This is the key point. We risk driving that money elsewhere, because this is the kind of noise that can be driven elsewhere.
In all amenity questions there is conflict between raw economic advantage
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and the welfare of the community, and nowhere is that conflict as sharp as in the matter of aircraft noise. If one makes a motor car the use of an effective silencer reduces the car's efficiency. It costs money to make trucks and lorries tolerable—many are, perhaps, still intolerable and should not be allowed on our roads as being too large and too noisy. It costs money to deal with sewage and to create smokeless zones. But to deal with aircraft noise costs not only money but foreign money—it costs dollars as well as pounds—because the restrictions we impose must be internationally applicable. Only by turning away landings at Heathrow can life be made tolerable under the glide paths.
The question then is: how much money can we afford to lose in the interests of those people? That is a hard question to answer, and that is why aircraft noise has been pushed into the background, and is apparently now to be kept there. What price are we as a nation prepared to pay so that people living in Putney, Richmond, Kew, Barnes, Roehampton, are not driven to distraction? What price should the nation as a whole be prepared to pay in the interests of the minority living under the glide paths, and particularly those at Heathrow?
At a recent meeting at Richmond I said that if the Government separated responsibility for the control of aircraft noise by taking it from the Board of Trade and vesting it in a Department concerned with amenity I would praise them in this Chamber. They had intended to do that, but they have apparently changed their mind—why?
This great new Department of Trade and Industry has responsibility for trade, industry, commerce, travel, freight, import and export, and so on. And also responsibility for aircraft noise. The Department is even bigger now, but even the old Board of Trade takes up pages in this booklet: commercial relations division, exports division, export and planning division, export services division, office for Scotland, and for Wales, the regional offices, overseas projects, credit standards, weights and measures, the film branch, the tours branch, the tariff division, civil aviation office I, civil aviation office II, civil aviation office III—they are all listed.

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But there is not a single division devoted to the prevention of what all the other Departments are there to create, which is more and more noise. Those various divisions cannot be held back in maximising trade by considerations of noise. Instead, there are two men and a girl in a small office in John Adam Street, in the civil aviation division, but not even worthy of a mention. That is the effort that the nation puts into the prevention of noise, and the Government have decided to leave that office there because they are not serious about the matter. They are serious about maximising trade, but they should be a little more serious about the amenities of our people.
They had this chance of giving another Minister an opportunity of speaking on level terms with his fellows on this subject—not just paying lip-service to amenity but having the opportunity to change plans. The Minister could have spoken with an equal voice in Government—not just this present small office now and again piping up to a Minister who has other things on his mind. The Government had the opportunity, and the White Paper indicates that they had the intention of taking it. We are told that it is not now their intention to proceed further. Decisions about aircraft noise have always been made within the Department, and apparently they are still to be made there.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland), who previously was President of the Board of Trade, moved in the direction of recognising the importance of the problem by creating an aircraft noise council, but that body is simply advisory: it has no power. What is lacking here is power to assert this argument on equal terms with other equally important arguments. This case has never been heard at Cabinet level, or even at Cabinet committee level. The Department chiefly responsible for increasing air transport and the noise that goes with it has a tiny minority interest in reducing noise as well. What an absurdity it is, and here was a chance to cure that absurdity.
Is it any wonder that aircraft noise has got worse and worse every year since the invention of the jet engine? How could it fail to be otherwise when in all
926
those years no fruitful inter-ministerial discussion has been possible, and no Cabinet committee has ever had the matter on its agenda? Under the proposal in the White Paper, sufferers from aircraft noise would have had a champion at the highest level. The Secretary of State for the Environment could have argued it out with the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry and if they failed to agree they could have gone to the Cabinet for a decision. That has all gone now—
Mr. Whitelaw: The hon. Member is making a very important point which I greatly appreciate but, at the same time, his argument that under the new arrangement exactly what he wants cannot happen is not confirmed. It can happen, because if the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry brings it up and the Secretary of State for the Environment, with a very important Department behind him, disagrees, it goes to the Cabinet. That is what the Cabinet is for.
Mr. Jenkins: But the right hon. Gentleman knows very well that the Secretary of State for the Environment is no longer specifically charged with responsibility for aircraft noise: indeed, he is specifically excluded from the Order which we shall later debate. He will not be in the same position of being able to argue on equal terms with other Ministers. I would feel very much more comfortable if the Minister was charged in the Order with specific responsibility for the control of aircraft noise, but he is not so charged—although I must not say so. I am being tempted, Mr. Speaker—
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman must resist temptation.
Mr. George Thomas: A very good policy.
Mr. Jenkins: I have probably gone as far as I can along those lines. But on this matter I follow Winston Churchill, who once said in this Chamber that we are, more than we know, the creatures of our institutions. He might have added that if the institutions are wrong we are the prisoners of our institutions, and the Minister, however powerful he may be, will be the prisoner of the institution which is created in the House and which lays down what his responsibilities are.

927
This is the problem we face. No President of the Board of Trade, no Secretary of State for Trade and Industry can be effective about aircraft noise. Indeed, I suggest that it would be a dereliction of his duty if he were to be, because his responsibility is trade, and the maximisation of transport, including air transport, and the maximisation of noise that goes with it. But we might draw to his attention what has been said by Professor Richards, Vice-Chancellor of Loughborough University, who has suggested that we may be wrong in assessing the economic effects of aircraft noise. He has done, for the first time I believe, a cost-benefit analysis of the consequences of noise. He suggests that the number of persons seriously disturbed around Heathrow is some 400,000—a very large number, only a fraction of whom live sufficiently near the airport to have any feeling of pride in it. He adds:
"The total locality loss borne by the people of London for the pleasure of having Heathrow in their midst is £66 million per annum, a vast sum which is not made any smaller by the realist realisation that the full annual value of the airport is only five times this sum."
Perhaps our sums have been wrong and we would find on examination the cost of aircraft noise to be too high even in pure economic terms. It should be the duty of the Secretary of State for the Environment to do that sort of research to support his case against the Minister responsible for noise creation, but he will not have that duty. The locality loss, the amenity loss, is not put in the balance at all in the ordinary cost-benefit terms used for the purpose of this analysis.
So the case is clear. The intention to tilt the balance in favour of amenity, long overdue, appears to have been negatived, and the short-sighted money men have gone ahead. I hope for an assurance that this victory is temporary. I hope that the Minister who replies will be able to assure me that this was a technical delay, that perhaps it is only a matter of time before the Secretary of State for the Environment is charged with the duty of reducing aircraft noise as much as any other noise. If it is possible to say that tonight, I shall not divide the House on the issue.
I must tell hon. Members opposite that it would be electorally advantageous for
928
them to take the matter seriously, apart from any other consideration. Last week the Government decided to remove my traditional safe Labour ward from my constituency. In spite of that, if the Tories do nothing about aircraft noise in Putney their supporters will not vote for them and I shall still hold Putney and still be here. So they will have the nuisance of having me here, apart from other considerations. If nothing else will move them, surely this will. I offer them the possibility of getting rid of me by making this improvement in amenities. That means that there is a bonus in it for them. I urge hon. Members opposite to accept my argument and do what they know to be right, to accept the proposals which I put before them and announce their conversion to the ideas I have been advocating. Then they will be rid of me into the bargain. If they do not, I propose to be here to plague them until one day someone recognises that people have a right to have the balance tilted in favour of amenity.
People know that the noise cannot stop, but here is a chance to reverse the trend, to halt the worsening. A Government who teetered on the edge of doing so and then funked the issue at the last minute would receive the contempt they deserve. I hope that the Government will change their mind even now and make it unnecessary to do what I would do, even if we do not divide the House later tonight. I hope that some hon. Members opposite will join me, because this is an important issue, in praying against the Order when the time comes, unless we are assured that it will include this important change in it as well.
Mr. Speaker: I remind the House that I shall be able to call every hon. Member who wishes to speak only if speeches are reasonably brief.
7.5 p.m.
Mr. David Crouch: I shall certainly remember your injunction, Mr. Speaker.
The hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) ranged over many subjects outside this debate, and even covered past debates as well. On the question of aircraft noise he quoted Professor Richards, using quotations which I have used on this question.

929
I, too, am much concerned about the question of the environment and particularly aircraft noise as it affects my constituency, if, for example, Foulness should be chosen as the third London Airport. I hope for reassurance this evening from my Front Bench, because I had thought that the Secretary of State for the Environment had just that responsibility over pollution of the environment in all its forms that we seek. Only last week, I understand, he decided not to approve an extension to the Leeds and Bradford Airport at Yeadon because of the effects on the environment of people living near that airport. He demonstrated then that he had recognised his full responsibilities at once.
The House always listens with great interest to the observations on overseas development of the right hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) and we listened to him most closely tonight. He knows the working of the Department concerned and the operation of overseas aid perhaps as well as anyone in the Chamber. I, too, am much concerned that we should not diminish either the amount of our aid and promised aid or the manner in which we administer it. The right hon. Gentleman put his observations as fairly as he always puts them, so fairly that they must be listened to. Never does he rant and rave in the House, but rather he argues cogently and with great sincerity.
The right hon. Gentleman's point was that the Government's decision to move the Ministry of Overseas Development into the Foreign and Commonwealth Office might be seen abroad, and particularly in the Third World, as perhaps a lack of earnest of intent. I agree with him that there is that danger, but in my opinion it is compensated by the fact that, as he acknowledged, the Foreign Secretary has a firm commitment on this country's obligations and intentions in overseas development. That commitment was strongly reinforced by the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister at the United Nations a few days ago. It is the existence of that intention that satisfies me, as one who was concerned when I expected that this move might occur. It is that commitment which satifies me that at least in the new structure overseas aid will be represented at the highest level in Cabinet discussions,
930
by the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary himself. We also have in the new arrangements a Minister of State responsible for the working of the Department for Overseas Aid within the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
Of course, like other hon. Members who are concerned to see that we keep up our commitment, not only in figures but in efficiency, I shall watch this operation closely, and I shall certainly not hang back in pressing my colleagues on the Front Bench to see that the commitment is observed.
My hon. Friend the Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) made a passing reference to a body which is to disappear, and I hope that I shall not be out of order if I make a very small reference to the Consumer Council, with which I have had some consultation over the past few years in a special capacity in my own party. I found that the Consumer Council was unique in two respects. First, it was a very small body operating on very limited resources, for £240,000 a year is an incredibly small budget for a body responsible for recommending to Government and Parliament and telling the people at large about the problems concerning the consumer and how conditions for the consumer could be improved. Secondly, I know that the Consumer Council was highly regarded by those it criticised, both manufacturers and retail traders. It was, of course, also very well run and very well led. I know the Director personally and have very high regard for her. But having said this about that worth-while body, I pose the question whether we need to create these ginger groups outside the House. I am not against ginger groups arising outside this place of their own accord.
Mr. Douglas: I am interested in the hon. Gentleman's remarks. If I follow the trend correctly, may I ask the hon. Gentleman if he would be in favour of a Minister for Consumers' Welfare who would be answerable in this House, as proposed by the Co-operative Movement?
Mr. Crouch: I do not think that I would be in favour of that, because I am anxious to support the Government in their objective of reducing the number of Ministers. I think that one of the

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Ministers presiding over the larger Departments we have been talking about could take that service under his wing and not find the burden too great. But, as I was saying, I suggest that the time has come to ask ourselves whether we need to go on creating bodies outside this House to do the work and carry out the functions which this House should be doing.
It is hon. Members who should be receiving complaints from consumers and who should be initiating ideas for their protection. I believe that we should be looking out for anomalies, and, of course, this is the job which hon. Members have been doing for hundreds of years. Perhaps the Consumer Council was little more than a specialised body advising consumers of anomalies and recommending us to rectify them.
I wonder whether it is possible for the Consumer Council to resurrect itself by finding voluntary subscriptions in order to maintain itself. The Consumer Association exists and is a larger body because it is a large publisher, of Which? and several other publications. It has a revenue on this account and performs a valuable function. If the Consumer Council could do that, not by being a publisher but by seeking to recruit finance from industry, from the public and possibly even from the local authorities, it is an idea which the Government might consider if, as I believe, they recognise that the Consumer Council has done a valuable job and could possibly go on doing so.
I return to my general theme. What we are looking at today is what is called a "new style" of government—a phrase which has captured the imagination of many people and has produced a serious and intelligent debate today. I believe that the most important part of the White Paper is the multi-disciplinary Central Policy Review Staff. There are one or two passages in the White Paper which gladden me but which also give me cause for concern. It discusses the new style of government and says in paragraph 3:
"The fulfilment of these aims will improve the efficiency of government. This does not mean an increase in State power, nor any sacrifice of humanity and compassion in public administration."
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I am glad that that second sentence was included. Some things in this document gladden me very much because I want to see the administration of the great complexity of government made more efficient. But I am also concerned that we should not, as we strengthen the one, allow the House of Commons in any way to become less effective. The two things must go along side by side.
Of course, the White Paper goes on to say in paragraph 4:
"The Government also recognise that the enhanced degree of efficiency in government which will be achieved raises the issue of the effectiveness of the system of Parliamentary scrutiny."
It promises the Green Paper, which we have already seen and which, I under- and from the Leader of the House, we are to have an opportunity of debating at an early date.
In relation to the central question of increasing the efficiency of government, the White Paper talks of the decision-taking process, and I think it right when it says:
"It is the problem of policy formulation and decision-taking, how Ministers can have before them at the right time all the necessary information and the analysis to enable them to take decisions. Thus, the necessary basis for good government is a radical improvement in the information available to Ministers."
I could not disagree with a word of that. But I want to remind my colleagues in the Government that those words about a radical improvement in information available to Ministers could, with the alteration of one word, read, "available to Members". That would gladden my heart. It would be perhaps wrong to suggest that such words should be in this White Paper, but, as we give our blessing to the White Paper and consider it, as I do, a step forward in the efficiency of good government, I cannot let it go by without saying that good government is not in Whitehall alone but in Whitehall and Westminster, between the executive and this House.
We are seeking today to support the Government, or to consider the Government's objective of producing better strategic thinking. We are seeking a better definition of strategic objectives. The right hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Marsh) made an interjection earlier in which he showed concern at the size of the task facing the Secretary of State

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for the Environment and the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. He was concerned that perhaps no man could carry the burden of such responsibilities. But I think he has missed the point.
We are talking about seeking better efficiency in government because we recognise, or believe we recognise, the need for searching after the correct strategic objectives. If we believe in looking at strategic objectives, we must recognise that these two Secretaries of State will have a very wide area of responsibility under them in order that, at the top, they can comprehend the strategic objectives. They will be able to comprehend them because they will be fed a great amount of advice and recommendations from their junior Ministers and others in the Ministries over which they have command. This is no different from management in industry, and no different from management in the Armed Forces.
While we must be careful in our choice of Ministers—and the right hon. Gentleman was generous in paying compliments to those individuals who hold these responsibilities in the two offices now and did not seem to imply that they were not capable, merely wondering whether it was wise to set such wide responsibilities on one man's shoulders—because we are seeking a strategic objective, it is only by giving these Ministers these larger responsibilities that we can expect them to think in that way.
But there are dangers for Parliament, because in the end Parliament must control and decide, and if Parliament is to do that, it must know. That is why it is so important that we must not allow these good ideas just to go on the Statute Book without Parliament speaking today in defence of its own rights and those of the people we represent. We must be kept as fully informed as is possible. We know that there is now to be developed around the Cabinet Office a "think tank" of people, an inner court of wise men, to advise the Cabinet Office and to keep an eye on the strategic objectives. This is a good thing, but I have always had a certain wariness of inner courts which are not responsible to this place.
I have great confidence in the Leader of the House as one who will be a cham-
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pion of the House as he sits in Cabinet. He is not on the Front Bench now, but I am sure that my words will be conveyed to him, because it is for him to safeguard our interests as we improve the efficiency of government. Efficient government, yes, but Parliament, too, must be effective.
7.22 p.m.
Mr. William Rodgers: I do not share the conventional wisdom which has been expressed by both Front Benches today—although I would say that my right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) was a little schizophrenic about this—that in the organisation of central government, bigger is better. On the contrary, I regret the whole tendency of recent years towards conglomerate Departments. Had my right hon. Friend pursued his argument with, to use a favourite phrase of his, his usual intellectual astringency, he might have found himself in my position. However, I understand how he was inhibited by his own past responsibilities in that regard, while I am free to consider not only the new White Paper, but the progress which we have seen for a considerable time.
I am not aware that the industrial world yet knows how to run massive firms. We have not yet bred a race of supermen to head them. We have not yet found a way of getting round the consequences of putting all our eggs in one basket. Why, then, do we transfer an unproven order of things into the delicate business of government?
I think that it is an unfortunate result of our own loss of self-confidence. Politicians, ashamed of their amateur reputations, have sought to prove themselves professional by emulating the business world. The massive corporation, whether in the private or in the public sector, is becoming the model, and we are told that these changes are necessary in the cause of efficiency. But efficiency is seldom defined, and it was certainly not defined today by the Leader of the House, from whom it is legitimate to ask a definition.
I am sure that this development is a threat both to the political control of Departments and parliamentary control of the Executive. It is a backward step and it has been taken in blinkers. That

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is why what we are discussing today extends far beyond party politics. It is close to the roots of our whole Parliamentary system.
In what I have to say, I shall be referring mainly to the organisation of the central Government in home affairs. I do not think that the same dangers necessarily arise from the amalgamation of external or defence Departments, although some of them certainly do, for with the latter there is not the same conflict of function and, broadly speaking, both ends and means are held in common.
What I am concerned with is the disappearance, announced in the White Paper, of the Board of Trade and the Ministries of Housing and Local Government, Public Building and Works, and Transport and the fact that in recent years the Ministry of Aviation, half of it at present resurrected in order that it may enjoy a second death, the Ministry of Pensions, the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Power have all lost their separate existence.
In this the Prime Minister has won the approval, as every Prime Minister does, of the tidy-minded commentators who love organisation charts and respect the exercise of power, but the White Paper is a pretty fair nonsense. Paragraph 14 is a good example of the cavalier manner in which major problems of size and democratic control are dismissed even when they are half admitted. The White Paper is strong on unproven assumptions and weak on common sense. It is intellectual flatulence.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby had some devastating criticisms of the whole White Paper. My only regret is that he is not now in office to be confronted by Lord Rothschild. It would be an interesting meeting. Any self-respecting Minister confronted by Lord Rothschild with the task which has been assigned to him would send him away with a flea in his ear.
May I deal with an irrelevant argument for the conglomerate Department, although it is an argument which does not feature in the White Paper? It seems to stem from the view that the Cabinet is a board of directors, and it is argued that the Cabinet is too large. It is mainly Leaders of the Opposition who take this
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view. They revise it when they come to form a Government and to propitiate their colleagues. But they are right when they are Leaders of the Opposition—the Cabinet is too large.
In any Government there are nine or ten men of major political standing who can contribute out of their experience to the solutions of the great problems of State. This was the size of Mr. Churchill's war-time Cabinet at its largest. Allowing a peace-time Prime Minister a little grace, most people would settle for a dozen.
But there is no earthly reason why a much smaller Cabinet should not go along with a considerable number of separate Departments headed by Ministers of Cabinet rank and answerable to the House of Commons. In 1951 there were 15 such Ministers, excluding the Law Officers and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. By 1964, we were down to six and on the eve of the last general election to three. Now it seems that there is just the lonely Minister of Posts and Telecommunications, a latter-day Goldilocks wondering whether he is to be gobbled up by the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, for Environment, or—why not, for it deserves its turn?—the Department of Education and Science. The point which I am making is that the argument for the optimum organisation of government ought to be conducted independent of the question of the right size of the Cabinet. A small Cabinet and a considerable number of Departments could go together.
I return to the central issue, that I am against the tendency to fewer and conglomerate Departments. I am against it for five main reasons, and I will give them in order of ascending importance. First, there is no "natural" division of functions that overwhelmingly justifies one conglomerate rather than another. My right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby spoke of heterogeneous. Heterogeneous is the word, and heterogeneity may be achieved in several different ways. As Mr. Peter Jenkins said in an article in The Guardian commenting not on the recent White Paper, but on the changes of a year ago,
"Whitehall is like the Balkans—nobody will ever draw an entirely satisfactory map."
I do not dispute that some tidying up was required before this White Paper.

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The changes of a year ago left the Board of Trade in limbo. There was much to be said for putting all aspects of private industry under one roof and avoiding the necessity of business men shuffling from one Department to another. This could have been done without creating an ungovernable monster. Relations of Government to private industry and to nationalised industries are very different. We are told that this will become more so. The need to plan road and rail together with internal air services and possibly coastal shipping is elementary. Yet they are to be in different places. The relevance of the purchasing policy of the civil air lines to the design and manufacture of engines and air frames is clear but aviation supply has been taken away from the Ministry of Technology—as the airlines have moved in.
In this case, faced with a sharp choice between conflict and co-ordination the Government have lost confidence in their tidy theory and dithered. This most of all illustrates the falsity of the argument that it is possible to divide functions in one way which is markedly better than another. Examples of this are endless and the plain fact is that there is no perfect solution to the division of functions and it is ridiculous to pretend that there is.
I am secondly against the tendency because I think it will be injurious to the morale and eventually to the quality of the Civil Service. I agree with what the hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) said. I certainly do not share what has sometimes been a liking for the popular sport of diminishing the Civil Service, a sport in which Ministers sometimes take part when they wish to find excuses for their own failings. The members of the Civil Service are on the whole a competent and hardworking lot. In so far as they fall short, it is ultimately the fault of Ministers for thinking too little about their recruitment, training and deployment.
Contact with Ministers at all levels and especially at the career grade of Assistant Secretary—and anyone who has worked in a Government Department knows the key rôle which the Assistant Secretary fulfils—is essential for full involvement in the decision-making process. The Secretary of State of each of these huge Departments will be remote. There
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will be little of the exchange of views and the growth of understanding between Ministers and middle-rank officials which we have known. The Service will suffer.
Thirdly, I am against the tendency for a reason which perhaps all of us are a little reluctant to discuss. To talk of a career structure for Ministers may seem indecent. They are chosen and they are dismissed for a wide variety of reasons, some of them understandable, some of peculiar, and the public is grudging in its attitude to our ambitions. Nevertheless, the best use of Ministerial manpower ought to be a matter for concern. The fact is that the fewer Departments there are, the less scope there is for experience short of Cabinet and the less room for taking responsibility and answering for it in the House, a point to which I will shortly return. In the long run this can reduce the effectiveness of government by which I mean, if I can make my own definition, performing the functions that flow from decisions made in Parliament.
My fourth and fifth reasons are crucial and they are linked. I am against the tendency because it will either diminish the rôle of Ministers in decision-making or else decisions will take longer to reach. In either case there will be less dialogue at Ministerial level. Where previously three or four Ministers argued out a decision, the man at the top of these huge Departments will be in receipt of a single recommendation. He will take decisions on a narrow base of advice, inevitably postponing them as he ploughs through his endless work or, less likely, letting officials take those decisions by default.
Of course, he will have Ministers to advise him but in practice, as time goes by, he will be making up his own mind with his chief official advisers reporting direct to him unless he is to be an overlord. A junior Minister is a junior Minister whatever his salary and however he is dressed up. The habit of the Civil Service, the ambitions of politicians and, as we shall see, the requirements of the House of Commons, make it so. This is a very serious problem and I do not believe that it will be solved through defining policy narrowly and seeking to ensure that only the top man concerns himself with it. There will be less genuine dialogue within government and the supermen at the head of these Departments will, I believe, develop a distressing

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medical record. They will be spending more time in the London Clinic than in the House.
Perhaps it is a sign of the times that they will be unable to attend important debates concerned with their responsibilities since I see that neither the right hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) nor the right hon. Member for Knutsford (Mr. John Davies) is present. They may look to be in the pink now, but I think that they will be pretty seedy by the summer, not through their own fault but because of the responsibilities thrust upon them.
Fifthly, I am against the tendency because in placing an unreasonable burden on the shoulders of a conglomerate Minister there is a grave danger that his personal responsibility to this House for all the affairs of his Department will become blurred. There can be no doubt whatever about this responsibility. The Leader of the House confirmed it this afternoon in reply to an intervention of mine. I do not mean that such a Minister must answer every Question in the House and make every statement. This would be totally unfair to his juniors and we have not expected this in the past. I agree with what has been said by the Leader of the House, the hon. Member for Honiton and by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) about the proper responsibilities for junior Ministers. However, on all major issues the head of the Department must stand at the Dispatch Box and a major issue is any issue with real political steam behind it, even if it is a minor one in policy terms.
The conglomerate Ministers must be ready to meet M.P.s individually and in groups. Ultimately no Minister can escape this courtesy in the way that the chairman of a board may escape his shareholders. He must mix in this place no less than his juniors. He cannot be lofty and remote. His relations with Parliament and Parliamentarians must be as close as ever. I predict that this will not be the case, mainly owing to the sheer demands on the time of the conglomerate Minister.
Also, and this is an aspect of my previous point and bears on something which has been said by several hon. and
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right hon. Gentlemen, decisions will be less openly arrived at. We shall be presented in the House with a single view covering a wide area of policy. The executive will turn an increasingly monolithic face towards us. It will be harder to prise open the shell of government and discover what is inside. I do not doubt, nor can anyone with any experience of government, that there are problems of co-ordination in government. Of course, I respect the intention of this Government in so far as their White Paper is meant to solve these problems. The Cabinet committee system has been overworked. Issues have been fudged and delays caused. But the creation of conglomerates is not a self-evident solution. I believe that it has been embarked upon with far too little consideration.
7.39 p.m.
Mr. Ian Lloyd: I am sorry that the Lord President of the Council is not present to hear me apologise to him for not having heard his speech. It is possible that some of the things about which I shall talk have already been covered by my right hon. Friend in his deft and inimitable style, with a sledgehammer in one hand and a rapier in the other. I hope that if I refer to points made by my right hon. Friend he will ignore, in a suitable fashion, what I say.
The hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. William Rodgers) has taken a somewhat horrific view of government. In his interesting arguments he dealt with the problems of size and contrasted the problems of size in government with the problems of size in industry. It seemed to me that what I might described as the Dr. Jekyll of the Ministry of Technology under the Labour Government immediately became Mr. Hyde—if I have got it the right way round—the moment that an equally large organisation was created by the Conservative Government. The question of size is not easily resolved. To that extent, I agree with the hon. Gentleman. But we must look very carefully at the implications of what is being done.
I shall probably be more than usually discursive, not least because this is such a wide ranging topic that one is tempted to be discursive. I imagine that most hon. Members agree and probably accept that within the last two or three decades

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we have approached what is often referred to as a great divide in human affairs. But if one looks carefully at the apparatus of decision-making, not only within the State but within industry and all human organisations, one sees a clearly discernible factor, which is the emergence of science as the basis of decision-making.
That is certainly true within industry. It was possibly most conspicuously true within the Services during the Second World War when operations research, under that very distinguished President of the Royal Society, Professor Blackett, was introduced, first, into the work of the Royal Air Force and subsequently, I believe, into the Army and the Royal Navy. Shortly after that, within two or three years of peace, it began to spread somewhat esoterically in industry, and there it stayed for some time, making a modest but definite contribution.
I welcome the White Paper because what is proposed—the capability unit—is nothing less than the introduction at the highest level of decision-making in the State of the techniques of operations research. Possibly "capability" is a somewhat ambitious name to hang around the neck of any organisation which is subject to political attack and comment, but those of us who believe that operations research has made a profound contribution to the quality of decision-making in our national and industrial life expect that a positive contribution will be made by this unit. If it can contribute to civil government at the centre what it contributed to victory in the Second World War, and what it is contributing to industrial policy-making, we have nothing to fear.
Paragraph 48 of the White Paper states:
"The new staff will not duplicate or replace the analytical work done by departments in their own areas of responsibility. But it will seek to enlist their co-operation in its task of relating the individual departmental policies to the Government's strategy as a whole."
We must consider this statement very carefully. I do not see how a review and appraisal body at the highest level in the State can discharge this absolutely vital and necessary function without at least being able to duplicate such analysis, and when it thinks that the analysis is possibly wrongly based, or that the assumptions are inadequate, or that something needs close attention and further
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analysis, it must do it itself. That is absolutely unavoidable. But the paragraph goes on to say that the unit would be able "to promote studies in depth", and if promoting studies in depth is not carrying out the analysis or reappraising the analysis presented by individual departments, I do not know what is.
Paragraph 52 points out that
"a greater emphasis on the definition of objectives and the expressing of programmes so far as possible in output terms"
will be involved. I am sure that there is no one in the House who has not welcomed the progress made in recent years towards the quantitative expression, mainly in financial terms, of the results of legislation. It is impossible for the House, constituted as it is or likely to be, to make effective judgments of legislation unless this is done.
I draw attention to some remarks made at a small conference over which I had the privilege to preside recently in Strasbourg. On one side of the table we had representatives of the International Federation of Information Processing and on the other side a small number of Parliamentarians of the Parliaments of Western Europe. At the end of the conference the question was put to the Parliamentarians, at my suggestion, although I did not frame the question, "How many of you, in looking at the legislation going before your respective legislatures, are able to say what the data processing implications of it are, how soon such legislation may be made obsolete by developments in management information science, and what the data-processing costs of the legislation will be?" The answer in every case was that they did not know.
One thing which government must consider doing—possibly at the beginning only in the most simple and primitive way, but a start must be made and the sooner the better because we are living in the data processing age—is looking at legislation with this asterisk or appendix clearly spelled out so that we know what the data-processing implications of the legislation will be.
I congratulate the Government on their proposals for the Department of Trade and Industry. In particular, the House should endorse the Government's attempt to eliminate the distinction between internal and external trade matters. The

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more one travels round the world, the more one realises that there is a great danger of decisions being made on the level of the sub-optimum. They are optimised with respect to a country, region or area and, because of this, the best solution is not achieved. The reason is that we are almost condemned in some ways to think in terms of national boundaries or within national boundaries. Until we can escape from some of the constraints which this imposes on our thinking, inevitably many decisions made by government will be sub-optimum for some larger area.
The second point which the White Paper emphasises is that the reorganisation is intended to assist industry to improve its technological strength and competitiveness. Two or three weeks ago it was my privilege and good fortune to join a party going to Japan where I had the opportunity of observing at the highest level some of the modern achievements of Japanese industry. This was—and I hesitate to use words which might convey the wrong meaning—an impressive and frightening experience. It was impressive because we saw a country which within six years had doubled its standard of living, and frightening because we saw the steps being taken by these industrious and skilful people to increase their industrial competitiveness and improve their technological capacity to dominate the markets which they intend to dominate in the near future.
Perhaps the most recent emphasis was given by a team sent from Japan to the United States to study management information science. When it returned, the decision was made that in this country there should be a wholehearted embracing of the principles, doctrines and implications of management information science as the team was able to discover them in the United States.
The interesting thing to this House and the country is that this decision was taken at the very highest level. Within the Japanese Diet there was constituted almost forthwith an all-party computer committee with 130 members and seven sub-committees concentrating on all aspects of the relationship between the executive and industry and between the diet and industry where data processing and management information science is
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concerned throughout Japan. I know of no western Parliament where this question has been taken with comparable seriousness and, if central government within the West is to respond to the challenge which is presented, I see no alternative to the establishment of similar organisations, although obviously organisation by itself is not enough. To have merely the shell of interest displayed is totally inadequate.
My conclusion, and that of the other 19 industrialists who accompanied me to Japan, is that there is a real and positive commitment to the implications for the whole of Japanese society and the economy of these new techniques which is astounding. If I were to tell the House that within the last three years Japan's installed computer capacity has surpassed that of Western Germany and the United Kingdom and is second only to that of the United States we can draw the appropriate conclusions.
Mr. Dell: Is the hon. Gentleman criticising the policy of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry who proposes to disengage from the operations of industry in this country? Did he find any signs that the Japanese Government were currently disengaging from the operations of industry in Japan?
Mr. Lloyd: It would not be right for me to say that I detected a significant difference between the relationship of the Japanese Government and industry and the relationship of our own Government and industry under either party, but I did detect this commitment at all levels, including Parliament, the Government and throughout the State, to the implications of new techniques of decision-making. The fact that these are being widely extended not only within government and within Parliament but within major industrial groups is something we cannot afford to ignore.
The presentation of central government requires the most urgent consideration by all western parliamentary governments. There can be few hon. Members on either side of the House who are not profoundly aware of the cynicism and mistrust on the part not only of our own youth but most certainly of youth throughout the western world today for the whole of what is airily described as

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the "establishment" system, parliamentary democracy, Parliaments and all the way down. It is profound, it is real and it is affecting not only the confidence with which decisions are accepted and with which legislation is implemented but the confidence with which the decision makers—ourselves and the Governments we support and select from this House—govern. These two issues of confidence are most vital and important. I do not detect in the White Paper, although I am sure it is very much in the minds of my right hon. Friends, that they are addressing themselves directly to this problem. If I am asked if I know of any more important problem to which central government should direct itself today, I cannot say what it is.
Having come from the other side of the earth, may I give an illustration concerning my constituency. I was recently asked to look at a primary school on Hayling Island where conditions were far from what one would hope to find in a modern primary school. I am struck by the remoteness of the 1,000 parents of the children at that school from the decision making, the control of resources and the expenditure of resources on education in that school. As taxpayers they all pay indirectly and remotely for that education, but their capacity to influence what is done there is remote and ineffective. They can talk to councillors, local and county, to Members of Parliament and to the Press. They can create a fuss, but what they cannot do, because we have so arranged it and the central and county government are so remote, is to say that they as 1,000 taxpayers or 1,000 parents of children at the school will increase the resources which they are themselves prepared to spend on the education of their children. This is because the whole thing has moved into that vast maw known as the public sector. There are arguments in favour of this which no one would dispute, but there is a price to be paid, and we have not given sufficient attention to the importance of restructuring central government so that people who are involved in such a dilemma do not feel that the whole system is fantastically remote and incapable of giving them the answer which they need.
There is no more important or central problem for any western government than the control of inflation, and in saying that
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I feel sure that I am speaking for hon. Members on both sides of the House. Whatever their view on how inflation could be controlled, I think everyone would share the view that controlled it must be. Yet how widely is this understood? Who is capable of completing the loop of reasoning which starts at his or her pay claim and ends up with the 15 per cent. or 16 per cent. inflation that is likely to result from a 30 per cent. wage claim generated right across the economy? Which hon. Member has not had innumerable letters since the last Election asking for public expenditure to be increased in one area or another?
Although my hon. and right hon. Friends fought the election campaign on the basis of the one central plank that public expenditure should be controlled irrespective of its merits—I accept that this is a political issue but this is the propaganda deployed—yet within two weeks there has been this flood of demand for more public expenditure over the whole area of national life. We are simply not getting across to the mass of the British people the fact that an increase in productivity and output in real terms of 3·2 per cent. per annum is the order of magnitude from which acceptable pay claims can be made. We should possibly conclude from this that something analogous to an economic speed limit has to be displayed all over the country; it has to be published in bold type on the front page of every newspaper: "Last month this country increased its real output by 0·04 per cent. Cumulatively this year this country has increased output by 1·8 per cent."
Mr. Arthur Blenkinsop: On a point of order. How does this relate to what we are supposed to be debating? The hon. Gentleman's remarks are most interesting, but can we get back to the subject matter?
Mr. Lloyd: I am trying to relate this to the importance of presenting central Government in such a way that its decisions are accepted and understood. Whatever we do in terms of reorganising the Departments of central Government or of legislation passed through the House, whatever steps we take, if on the whole the general public do not understand why we are legislating or what are the implications then this vast gap of confidence

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will continue and the reorganisation of central Government by itself will not be sufficient to tackle one of the most central problems of the day.
I come to an impending problem of central Government which is not covered by the White Paper. I happened the other evening to sit next to the Director General of the European Parliament who was in London. This is a matter which interests me because, whatever hon. Members may think of the desirability of this situation, it is possible that we may have to be represented in the European Parliament in the relatively near future. I asked him how many weeks a member of the European Parliament had to spend attending the European Parliament, and his answer is an answer which I think the House and the country should know. It is 20 weeks per annum. It is possible that we can sustain and continue our representation in the Council of Europe and at the W.E.U., which involves Members in something like six to eight weeks absence from this House per year if they are assiduous in their attendance, but I am confident that we cannot be represented at the European Parliament if this involves an absence of 20 weeks a year. Therefore, I would ask the Lord President of the Council to consider what will be the shape, character and technique of the representation of the United Kingdom Parliament—
Mr. Blenkinsop: Again, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I return to my earlier point of order. I ask that speeches in this debate should bear some relevance to the subject-matter before us. I think we have heard enough of this and I ask for your protection.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Miss Harvie Anderson): I am sorry. I thought that the hon. Member for Portsmouth, Lang-stone (Mr. Ian Lloyd) had finished. It would be wise for the hon. Member to keep a little more closely to the subject.
Mr. Lloyd: I will return to what I believe to be equally relevant to the reorganisation of central Government, and this is a matter to which many of my hon. Friends have referred, namely the position of the House of Commons. We have heard a great deal about economic models and the capability unit of central
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Government will be using economic models. The major Departments of State increasingly will be faced with decisions based on these models. Indeed, since the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Blenkinsop) is so concerned about the relevance of my remarks, I would point out to him that paragraph 57 of the White Paper says:
"Helped by a computer model developed by the Civil Service Department, this study will also consider the most suitable locations for dispersed work …"
It refers to the problem of dispersing central Government from London. I hope that I shall be in order in referring to computer models and economic models. I intend to do so in some detail. An example of this process in action today is the decision about the European air-bus. We have seen published in the newspapers the conclusions based on an economic model—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is stretching the tolerance of the House rather far. I hope he will come back more closely to the subject under debate.
Mr. Lloyd: If the House is not to be able to comment on economic models in detail, I fail to see how the central functions of Parliament are to be discharged. Whether or not the hon. Gentleman thinks it is unfair, I am as much concerned as he is with the position of backbenchers in relation to central Government and indeed to the reorganisation of central government. If central Government is to present decisions to the House of Commons based on involved computer models, it seems to me that the Government of the day could say, "We have done the work, we have carried out the examination, and you must accept our decisions because you are in no position to question them."
This matter is of major concern to all Members of Parliament, certainly to those of us who take our duties seriously. If this course is to be embarked upon, it seems to me that a central feature of the reorganisation of central Government must be the question of the access of Members of this House to the data banks of the State. I have mentioned this matter before and I have no hesitation in doing so again, because I believe it to be of fundamental importance. If we now seek to ignore this matter by saying that it is

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not relevant to central Government, then I have no doubt whatever that it will come back resolutely and relentlessly to the Floor of this House with increasing vigour and increasing support from both sides of the House. I have no hesitation in making that prediction.
I think I have covered all I would like to say about the White Paper. I commend the courage and enterprise of the Government in at least making a forward move and in trying something new. This has to be done, and the more courageously, honestly and openly it is done the better.
8.6 p.m.
Mr. Dick Douglas: I am pleased to see the Leader of the House present during this part of the debate. The hon. Member for Portsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Ian Lloyd) displayed a particular attitude of mind in dealing with the White Paper. It may have been a slip of the tongue, but he said that we should look to new techniques of decision-making as applied to computers. That is a dangerous attitude of mind if it is to permeate Government thinking. Computers, data banks, and any other form of aid is useful to decision-making, but in itself it is not a new technique of decision-making. It is a fair point to make, but it points up a danger in terms of the whole of the White Paper. I look at the matter from the point of view of balancing the need for an efficient public administration with the need to throw the searchlight of the House of Commons on to sources of information in relation to public expenditure and the public interest at large.
The question we must ask is whether this White Paper, which seeks to deal with the reform of central Government, gives us the aids we require. The Leader of the House did not touch on the vital issues of public expenditure involving the programme of control and the relationship of the new multi-disciplinary unit in the public expenditure exercise. There seems some confusion in the White Paper about accountability in relation to this House which must be cleared up.
The Government are injecting into this whole exercise a team of businessmen who will say something—we do not know what—about the control of public expenditure. We realise that the Govern-
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ment must take time in directing their searchlight on this vital area and it may well take some time for the team of businessmen in the Civil Service Department to produce a report. I hope—and I seek the assurance of the Leader of the House on this matter—that once that is done this Government, like a previous Conservative Government in 1961, will come forward with a White Paper for discussion in the House about the control of public expenditure. Many fruitful devices stemmed from the report of the Plowden Committee in 1961 and it has proved to be a very useful document.
The public expenditure exercise upon which we are now embarking, together with the forward look, are vitally important in looking at public expenditure over at least a three to five year period. If we are to interfere in any way with the team of businessmen in carrying out that process, I hope that the Government will have the good sense and good grace to see that the House gets the information it needs in a White Paper on the techniques which are to be employed to control public expenditure.
The other relationship, which perhaps cannot be discussed fully within the ambit of the White Paper, is that of the proportion of gross national product that goes to public expenditure. What appears to permeate the thinking behind the White Paper is that public expenditure has grown, is growing and ought to be diminished, regardless of what happens to the national income. This is a dangerous outlook in terms of the requirements of people outside the House, the people we represent.
The hon. Member for Portsmouth, Langstone mentioned that the desire of the electorate at large is to increase public expenditure, although as individuals they may want to shift the burden of public expenditure from their shoulders to somebody else's. They might consider that desirable but, if we argue that we should go for a higher level of economic growth, an indispensable prerequisite is to have a high level of public expenditure. I do not run away from that. We can discuss how we are to get value for money, and, in as much as the White Paper seeks to get better value for money, we support it. But we doubt all the time the purely balance sheet mentality in relation to public expenditure.

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In this House 20 or 30 years ago, accountants would have been the people who held sway. Today, they are the computer operators who, seemingly, can quantify quicker and better than accountants. Very often, they take the place of management, and the danger is that they could take the place of government since they can present a quantification in tables of statistics on the basis of which a Minister, because he is extremely busy, tends to take a decision thinking that the statistics represent certainty. They do not. We know that, and we hope that the Minister does.
I now turn to one or two points about the detail of the White Paper as it affects public administration. I was very sorry about the demise of the Consumer Council. In an age of increasing affluence in which the consumer is presented with multifarious products, I do not believe that the Government can withdraw from the sphere of consumer protection. It is all very well to claim that there are voluntary associations. We pay tribute to the Consumers Association and others, but such associations tend to cater for particular sections of the community. It is the Government's job to protect other sections of the population who do not wish or cannot afford to subscribe to organisations like the Consumers Association. It is the Government's job to provide the medium and mechanism to bring the searchlight of public disapprobation on industries which cheat the consumer. After the publication of the Molony Report, for a Conservative Government to withdraw from this area for what is really a paltry saving is not aiding consumer choice. It is befuddling the issue and making it easy for unscrupulous merchants who can affect a particular spectrum of the population.
I want for a moment to consider the agglomeration of responsibilities which have now come under the heading of Trade and Industry. We in Scotland are extremely perturbed by the attitude of mind displayed by the Secretary of State in his speech to the Conservative Party conference. He came afresh from industry appearing to think that it was possible to solve all these problems by the market mechanism. He seemed to decry aggregates in economic affairs, looking all the time at micro-economics.
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That may be fair in industry, but it is dangerous to display that attitude of mind as a Minister, especially as a Minister involved in decisions which cannot be quantified on an annual basis.
It would have been very dangerous for the Labour Government to try to quantify on an annual basis what would happen to Fairfields or to U.C.S. Taking an annual balance sheet of either organisation, it would have been justifiable on the basis of bare statistics to say, "Close down". However, the longer-term perspective which the Government must take necessitated that consideration had to be given not just to the yard concerned since it carried with it responsibility for a great many other jobs in the area. There must be limits, of course. The Government cannot enter into open-ended commitments. However, I dispute an attitude of mind which looks at managing the nation on the basis of "Great Britain Limited", looking for an annual balance sheet to see whether we have made a profit or a loss. There are no statistics at present available to the Government which are sufficiently accurate in the short, medium or even long run to make possible the decision process necessary in the running of a nation's affairs.
I criticise the operations of the monetary system. It is the best one that we have, but there is room for improvement. But I will not develop that here, because it would be out of order.
The Leader of the House gave us ground for believing in terms of ministerial responsibility that he might look at the possibility of junior Ministers answering in this House for their segments of departmental responsibility. That might be a useful innovation. Earlier today, I was astounded to hear the Secretary of State for the Environment make a statement affecting another Cabinet Minister's responsibility. In the event, the Secretary of State for Scotland was not allowed to answer for that part of the statement affecting his responsibility. At a time when we have a Government who are so concerned about quantifying, it is strange that a question about the proportion of cuts in subsidies affecting Scotland should go unanswered. That does not lead one to believe that any multi-disciplinary unit is aiding the Government at present.

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Another issue arose earlier today which vitally affects investment decisions. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked whether he had any information to show the variation between development areas and non-development areas in terms of the difference between cash grants and tax-based incentives. One would have thought that that was relatively simple and could have been arrived at on the basis of a number of different asset valuations and cash flows. We are all fairly intelligent people, perfectly capable of understanding such figures. However, it was apparent that the Chancellor could not give us the information, and he refused to say whether he had sought it out in his Department.
The Government might need assistance here. I for one am not very happy about the amount of information flowing from this Government at present, especially as it affects vital policy decisions and the sorts of details which one would have expected in recent White Papers.
It appears to me that the White Paper is producer-orientated. It looks all the time in terms of government and industry to thinking that the producer knows best. The entrepreneur, the captain of industry, making his decision, knows best where to locate his plant; the Government in Westminster knows best what affects the country. There is no feed-back, no two-way process of ideas between the Government, this House, and the electorate in general. I believe that many reforms in government are necessary. However, I do not believe that the White Paper leads us very far—indeed, not at all—along the way to democratising the economic decision making process.
You, Mr. Deputy Speaker, played a great part in looking at vital reforms of local government in Scotland. More needs to be done to make local government more local, democratic and efficient. Casting that type of eye on the White Paper, I come to the conclusion that it is a shabby document designed to make this country be run more like a board of directors.
One hon. Member suggested that we should know where the buck ended—the Truman doctrine. I believe that the White Paper leads us directly to the con
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clusion that the buck ends with the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister, although he may run away from the implications here, has made our system of government more presidential. To adjust that balance, we need to look searchingly in discussion and debate at the results of the Green Paper which the Leader of the House will give us an opportunity to debate. I do not necessarily believe that that is a good move in the direction of running the affairs of this House or of this country.
8.22 p.m.
Mr. David Mitchell: The hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Douglas) claimed that the information available to the Government in the short, medium and long term is never sufficiently accurate. I find myself in agreement with him about that, but I draw a different conclusion from that which he drew. I believe that this reinforces the danger of State monopoly in decision-making. If those decisions are based on wrong forecasting, then everyone suffers, and this reinforces the need for and the desirability of multi-individual decisions whether by persons or by industry. Some will be right; some will be wrong. However, I suspect that the overall balance will be far better than that set by government forecasting or government projections.
I welcome the White Paper for a number of reasons. First, it raises the proper place of the Government in a free society. Surely the Government should limit themselves to doing for people what they cannot do for themselves. The Government, by taking decisions, leave people in a position in which they will not be instilled to self-reliance or inspired to self-discipline or call forth the energy and enterprise and sense of purpose which individuals should have. If continually decisions are taken for people, which they could and should take for themselves, we shall weaken their ability to make their own decisions, we shall reduce their stature and bring ourselves nearer to the broiler society.
Because the White Paper raises this whole issue—it is clearly one of the issues on which the Government place considerable importance—I am delighted that we have this sign of new thinking about the whole sphere of government.

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Secondly, I welcome the White Paper because it draws attention to the excess load on the Government machine. We are aware, from the newspapers and from the situation which was revealed in various Parliamentary Questions earlier this year, of the enormous state of overload in, for example, the Treasury. We are also aware of the enormous state of overload which occurs in other Departments, but I particularly draw attention to the effect upon private industry. For every one person tied up in decision making—inquiring for and acquiring the information, about which the hon. Member for East Stirlingshire spoke, and processing the information on which decisions are taken within Government Departments—so we tie up people in private industry who are supplying that information. The most unfortunate and galling thing about this situation is that the very people who are most in need and in short supply in private industry are those who are tied up providing this kind of information.
If we can see the retraction of the Government from many of these spheres we shall not only be able to reduce the load on Government Departments and their personnel, but also—I believe that this is of equal importance to the country, though it may not be of such great interest to the Government—we shall reduce a similar load on private industry. It will take off the back of industry and release for productive enterprise a lot of people who are now tied up with form filling, answering returns, and generally dealing with the other end of the correspondence and inquiries on which the Government are trying to take their decisions.
For the business community there is not only the skills and the time involved, but also the enormous frustration to individual businessmen and managers of all grades who find themselves increasingly tied up not on the job that they came into the business to do—selling and dealing with the financial structure of their business or whatever it may be—but providing information for Government departments, the fruits of which they rarely see. It is most important that people engaging in a career in industry should know the end product for which they are beavering. They should
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know what they are working for; they should be able to see, as they shape their businesses or departments or whatever it may be, the effects of what they are doing. But increasingly these people are frustrated as a greater proportion of their time is spent sending information into the endless grasp and maw of the Government and their machinations on which the decisions are based. As was rightly said by the hon. Member for East Stirlingshire, although I do not think that he intended to give it to me in this way, that information in the medium, short, and long term is never sufficiently accurate.
The next reason why I welcome the White Paper is that it proposes a systematic and critical analysis of existing activities. One of the things with which I have been impressed since entering the House of Commons is the way in which the House—and I have no doubt that this applies to Government Departments, too—spends an enormous amount of time looking most carefully and searchingly at new activities which Government Departments are to take on. We look particularly at the expenditure which is to be incurred as the result of new proposals, and I am glad to say that we look with increasing interest at the manpower and womanpower that will be tied up as a result of new Government commitments.
I welcome what the House does, but all the time there has been a tendency to look searchingly at the new and to leave the old to continue in being because 20 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago, and sometimes 50 years ago, the House after a careful examination found it to be right at that time, and it has continued it ever since.
Do we need to have the Government involved in many of the activities in which they are involved today? The ludicrous came to me last week-end, when I discovered that if a person has a jack donkey or a stallion he must have a licence not to have it neutered. This is the ridiculous, but anyone who sits down and thinks about it can discover many cases of the Government of 20 years ago having agreed to do things, and now they continue to be done automatically. I welcome particularly the suggestion in the White Paper that there will be a searching examination of past

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decisions to see whether they should be continued into the future.
I deal next with the new Central Policy Review Staff in the Cabinet Office. I agree with the idea of bringing in Lord Rothschild as a fresh and outside mind to set up this body. I believe that this will prove to be the most far-reaching and lasting of the changes proposed in the White Paper.
I cannot help agreeing with those hon. Members, on both sides of the House, who have expressed doubt about the longevity of the new super Ministries. I am not totally sold on the idea that these will be one of the great successes of the proposals in this White Paper. I have fears that with the restrictions on human capacity it may not be possible for such vast Departments to be able, in the long run, to produce the necessary flexibility, or for the eye of a responsible Minister to be brought sufficiently to bear on the spread of their activities.
I believe that what will prove to be the most far-reaching decision will be that to set up this new strengthened Cabinet office. I am fascinated by this idea, and I think that the House generally will watch it with great interest. So far as one can understand, in the past the Cabinet has received from a Minister and his Department advice which was prepared by the Department, regardless of what was often narrowly rejected by the Department. There has been a tendency for the final decision of a Department to be presented to the Cabinet without it being aware that there were other alternatives which perhaps ought to be thrashed out by the Cabinet as a whole.
Past Governments have tended to have variants within the Cabinet and in terms of decision-making, according to the power of the Department and the strength and influence of the Minister concerned, rather than necessarily according to the importance of the decision being taken. For example, one can think immediately of Lord Beaverbrook whose Department may not have been the most important Department of State, and indeed it was not, yet he held office in the Cabinet, and such were his personal stature and the vast amount of influence that he had that he carried an immense amount of weight in decision making.
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One could pick on Ministers in past Governments who have been the reverse, who have had very important decisions to take but who, because they did not have the necessary force of character, were not able to ensure that the decisions were taken in the way that they should have been. It would be unkind of me to pick on Ministers by name. All I say is that Mr. George George-Brown was undoubtedly not in that category.
I welcome business men and business techniques being brought into the Government, but I join hon. Members who have expressed anxiety about the possibility of this becoming a super power, within the Government, resting on the Prime Minister of the day. I hope that my right hon. Friend will give an assurance that there will be no erosion in future of the doctrine of Ministerial responsibility, because I see some danger of this if the new Cabinet Office will have the authority of the Prime Minister behind it and be able, in that way, to persuade Ministers to change the policies which they would otherwise be advocating. That would be a dangerous step forward and I hope for an assurance—since we have nothing to go on except what is stated in the White Paper on this subject—from my right hon. Friend to the effect that this proposal will not bring some sort of presidential power within the Government by reason of this new Department.
8.36 p.m.
Mr. George Cunningham: There are two reasons why I am sad to be participating in this debate. The first, a personal one, lies in the fact that a year or so after leaving the old Commonwealth Relations Office, in which I served, it was gobbled up by the Foreign Office. Some time later I found myself serving in the Ministry of Overseas Development. Now, a couple of years later, I find that that, too, has been gobbled up by the Foreign Office. I seem to impose a jinx on Government Departments which is unhappy for them.
My second reason for sadness about the White Paper is that recently I have been making a study of the administration of aid by all Western donor countries. That study leads me to believe that the move in this White Paper is not only unwise in our circumstances but is going

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against the trend of the last decade in all Western aid donors' practices.
It may be argued by the Minister on this subject that by putting the Ministry of Overseas Development into the Foreign Office the Government are adopting a system which is at present being used by most Western donors—the employment of a semi-autonomous unit linked in some way to the Foreign Office for the management of aid.
However, if one looks at what the Americans, Swedes, Germans and Canadians have been doing since 1960, one sees that they have all moved in the direction of running their aid programmes by a means which separates aid and its administration from Foreign Offices, Treasuries and other specialist Departments. They have all independently—because they have not consulted each other very much on this subject—found themselves going in the same direction, which is towards the professionalisation of aid business.
It is regrettable, therefore, that being the case in all other countries, that we should be moving in the opposite direction. If it is said that, for example, the Agency for International Development in Washington is a semi-autonomous unit within the State Department there, then we should remember that the use of a semi-autonomous agency in the United States and other countries is a new device adopted after the practice of running their aid programmes as part of normal diplomatic dealings.
We on the other hand will be moving back from complete autonomy for the agency to the system more or less which applied before 1964. It is particularly a pity to abolish a Ministry which has the rare and, for all I know, unique distinction of having been warmly commended for its administrative efficiency by the Estimates Committee as recently as two years ago, and which I feel sure would have been commended by the Select Committee on Overseas Aid which met during the previous Parliament, had it produced its report.
It may be argued that recent developments and changes in administration of aid in Washington suggest that the use of something like the A.I.D. there is something which donors will not in future do. We have to recognise, however, that the
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situation in Washington is totally different from that which applies here. The A.I.D. is to be destroyed—that decision has been taken—but principally because Congress is unwilling to put through the aid appropriations on the basis on which they have been used in the past few years. So new administrative devices are being adopted which are more acceptable to Congress—and only for that reason. That situation does not exist in this country.
Other speakers have said that the danger of putting the aid administration into the Foreign Office are, among others, that there is likely to be a greater political influence on the application of aid than when it is a separate Ministry. All the experience of the last ten years suggests that, whenever one tries to use one's aid programme to gain short-term political benefits, one ruins the development purposes of the programme and does not gain the political benefits. In Malta, in Aden and elsewhere that we have attempted to use aid for political purposes, it has failed. Our £6 million subsidy to Jordan was intended to stop a Middle East war. Our aid to Malta was intended to help us get defence facilities, and a year or two later we provided more aid to Malta to facilitate our withdrawal from exactly those defence facilities. So the story could go on.
There is one other consideration. In some other countries—perhaps in all other countries—there is not to the same extent as in this country what I would call the "single voice" theory of government. In Washington, particularly, different government departments are tolerated to disagree with each other, and do, even in public. It is contrary to the British habit to do that. Differences of view between Departments are compromised away at an early stage and are suppressed in public.
So the Ministry of Overseas Development, even when it was fully independent, was not as independent of the Foreign Office, for example, as was the Agency for International Development in Washington, even though the latter was supposed to be only a semi-autonomous unit. Our inclination to compromise away all differences between Departments makes it important for us not to have the mighty single Departments, otherwise, differences of view which should go as far as possible up the pyramid will never get to the top.

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I hope that the Minister can answer one specific question which goes to the heart of a point mentioned in paragraph 34 of the White Paper. That says that
"the Minister for Overseas Development will have, by delegation from the Secretary of State, full charge of his functional wing of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office."
I ask whether the overseas aid administration, or whatever it will be called, within the Foreign Office—it is not given a title in the White Paper—will have separate representation on interdepartmental committees. That is the test of whether the Minister has the powers delegated to him.
There is no point in the Foreign Secretary's delegating to the Minister for Overseas Development certain responsibilities if it is not open to that Minister to put his view on a matter before interdepartmental committees, Cabinet committees and the like, even when he disagrees with the Foreign Secretary.
If that is done and the Minister has his separate representation on interdepartmental committees, it will be possible to work the new arrangements and suffer no great disadvantage. I do not think that it will happen, but it is possible. But if the Minister is left without separate representation on interdepartmental committees, this reference to delegation is entirely misleading. I hope that the Minister will give a clear answer to that point in winding up. I ask particularly insistently because I had an opportunity this afternoon of discovering that the Foreign Secretary had not given this point any consideration.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Miss Harvie Anderson): Before calling the next speaker, I wish to draw the attention of the House to the fact that one or two Members have sat here throughout the debate and that with a little indulgence on the part of those who are trying to take part in the debate, it may still be possible to call them all.
8.47 p.m.
Dame Irene Ward: This is a fascinating and important debate. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has presented a new system of government which most of us will wish well. But the House of Commons is too apt to discuss merely an overall plan, in terms of its greater dimensions only. I have always
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been a back bencher—and I have always wanted to be, because it suits my temperament. My experience of government is therefore not very great. What I find disturbing about government is the ineffective way in which the smaller details are dealt with. I find it alarming that we have a tremendous build up and then discuss merely the functions—apart from the humanities. It is important to remember that we have here a marvellously-conceived plan but that if the detail is not humanely administered, or is not given sufficient attention, the objectives of the overall plan may be frustrated. I hope that this Administration, embarking on this new system of government, will ensure that detail is given as important a place as the overall plan.
I rose particularly to give my support to the proposal and to express my great pleasure at the fact that in the reorganisation the children's service, other than that part concerned with juvenile crime, and so on, will be transferred from the Home Office to the Ministry of Social Security. For almost as long as I can remember, and that is quite a long time, the case in favour of this action has been argued but nothing has ever happened, so it is rather satisfactory to find it included as a relatively small detail in the reorganisation.
In government, and among ministers and the "tops" in the Departments—I do not know quite what to call them—one sometimes finds that the people dealing with the humanities in the field do not very often get consulted by those "tops". They are not able to discuss departmental reports which are then put to the Cabinet. Ministers are totally and absolutely unaware of some of these views. I do not mean to speak unpleasantly, because I believe that all those engaged in the social services are marvellous—they are dealing with human problems—but the people I refer to feel, and I sympathise, that with all their experience, very often gathered in difficult circumstances, and their tremendous desire to see injustices remedied, they do not approve very much of what Parliament does because they are so rarely consulted.
I take a great interest in social work. I like to discuss the humanities with people who see injustices in various places. At one or two conferences, experienced people who have listened to

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most interesting discussions have commented that a great many of our social service workers whose opinions ought to be heard are in a most peculiar state of mind, because they believe they know where the shoe pinches yet, at the top level they rarely have any chance of what I might call "cosy chats". I do not see anything about cosy chats in the White Paper. They are never able to have a good talk about the problems with which they have to deal and the priorities they would give in administration and in the development of legislation in Parliament.
I sympathise with that feeling. I have a great faith in the present Secretary of State for Social Services, he has a great humane approach, and we have some first-class humane Ministers, but I beg all of them not just to get the points of view presented by the very admirable civil servants at the top.
Someone mentioned to me yesterday, in conversation about the gaming laws, the problem of going round some of the gaming establishments to see what went on. The top people in the Departments concerned never visit them; their only evidence is what they are told. One cannot administer the social services humanely and justly simply from hearsay. Even though everybody is tremendously busy, the people working in the social services deserve much more consideration and time from Ministers, and much more attention should be paid to the priorities which ought to be given. I hope that the new Ministerial team will get down to this. I know that people are very busy. Even the nicest Minister surreptitiously looks at his watch when we are getting into an exciting talk. One says, "Poor man" or "Poor woman", because one does that oneself when one is interviewing.
I should like to give one instance from my own part of the world of the administrative problems in working with children. An excellent committee, with an excellent administrator, looking after homes for children, felt that it was a very bad thing that deprived children in care, who wanted life to be made friendly and happy, suddenly had superimposed on them children who had—poor things—basic criminal tendencies. Nobody paid
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the slightest attention to arguments put forward by the administration of the homes, but I did once force a deputation from the top levels in the Civil Service to come from the Home Office to discuss with the committee problems of the mixture of children. It really was not sensible to have this mixture under the same roof.
The medical profession in the county of Northumberland were interested in this question. They knew the problems, and wanted to have the deprived children in one establishment. They came with their great medical skill and knowledge to talk to the delegation from the Home Office on the problems which they faced, but the Home Office did not send a single medical delegate. I thought that that was frightful. The result was that some members of that voluntary, very well-informed, humane committee resigned. That is a terrible thing to happen.
I always hope that Ministers listen to what I say. I do not know whether they do. We have to say things in Parliament five hundred times, and then occasionally they get into the machine, if we are jolly lucky. I hope that the Ministers who will take over these children from the Home Office—and I applaud the decision—will consult in depth.
The Secretary of State for the Environment—it is difficult to remember everyone's title—has some very good ideas for developments in housing policy. In this part of the world, the unhappiness and the terrible human results of the conditions under which so many have to live really ought to be brought out into the open. The people who are dealing with families who live in such distressing conditions, the social workers, should be giving their advice and the benefit of their experience to the appropriate Ministers, and I hope they will. All I am saying is that, in this great new conception of government, do not let us only think of those who sail on the clouds but also of those who have to walk with their feet on the earth.
I am quite a feminist, but I am quite a supporter of men as well. I do not often trumpet my feminist views to my Parliamentary colleagues because they have done a great deal in supporting me in the House for quite a long time. But I really do think sometimes that

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the male contingent in the House are much better at the over-all planning of life—and I think that comes from their experience—but that we would be a little more successful if they realised that, on the whole, women are much better at detail. If we could get a combination of those two talents it would be a very good thing.
The Prime Minister gave me today a most interesting reply to a Written Question. I asked him whether the Women's National Commission was to be re-convened. He said that he had decided to re-convene the Commission with the following terms of reference. They are magnificent terms of reference.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Lady is stretching the debate rather far from Whitehall. Perhaps in her concern for the humanities she will recall that the Chair made an appeal on behalf of those who had been sitting throughout the debate.
Dame Irene Ward: I really do not have any idea as to how the debate is going, nor the slightest idea who is going to reply or anything like that. But I do want to put this matter briefly on record because it rounds off what I wanted to say. The Prime Minister told me that the terms of reference of the Commission would be
"To ensure by all possible means that the informed opinion of women is given its due weight in the deliberations of Government on matters of public interest."
I think that is wonderful. He went on to say a lot more but what he did not say was how we in Parliament are going to get that opinion. This is exactly what I have been trying to say. We have wonderful ideas but somehow or other the plans do not get put into effect because sometimes they are almost too difficult to put into effect.
After that magnificent new reference to women, I hope that I shall be told how, when the Commission has found out what women want—and, by jove, it will have a difficult time doing that—this information will be conveyed to us so that we can see that legislation fits in with what women want. That would be a marvellous adjunct to the overall picture, which so far has not really referred to what women think or want to do. However, my right hon. Friend has now given
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his Answer today about the Commission, and his announcement should be added to the general conception of the new, overall plan which I am sure we all wish success.
9.5 p.m.
Mr. Robert Sheldon: As the hon. Lady the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) said, this is a very important debate. It has been about the machinery of government, the effectiveness of government, who takes the decisions of government and where those decisions are made. It is hard to think of a subject which could be all that much more important. It has also indirectly had to do with the size of the Cabinet itself and the way in which Cabinet decisions are made.
These new conglomerate Departments will foster questions of how we ensure a full hearing of the arguments which will take place within each of the big Departments when they do not reach the Cabinet itself. We know what has happened in Departments of this kind. We know what has happened in the Treasury, which has problems similar to those of the conglomerate Department, not in the range of its activities, but in its size and importance. What has happened, and what still happens, in the Treasury is that many of the decisions which should have been fought out in the Cabinet were not fought in the Cabinet, because they were taken before they reached it. Similarly, with the conglomerates, much of the argument may have been concluded before the Cabinet discussion occurs.
Those who, like myself, believe that the Government inevitably have to involve themselves more and more with the life of the community will agree that the result must be greater size of Departments themselves. But whether one believes this or takes the view of the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. David Howell), that Government intervention has gone too far, the crucial fact is that as one tries to group Departments in order to reduce the number of Ministers in the Cabinet and so to make for more effective Cabinet discussions, so by the same token much is removed from Cabinet discussion which ought to be discussed by the Cabinet.
Various ways have been suggested for fostering the discussion which does not

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take place even within various Government Departments. It was suggested by one reformer that there should be a collegiate system within Departments so that different views might be fomented within each Department, leading up to a decision by the Minister at the top. The nonsense of this suggestion does not need further examination now.
A more serious approach was the setting up of the D.E.A. The whole purpose of the Department of Economic Affairs was to enable discussion to go to the Cabinet; the same kind of problem with which we shall be faced with these conglomerate Departments. Until the birth of the D.E.A., the Treasury itself made the decisions and there was in the Cabinet little challenge to them once made. With the new conglomerates, effective power will be in the conglomerates and questioning decisions will be difficult. The D.E.A. was set up as a counter so that there might be discussion between two Departments, both having an interest and both bringing the argument to the Cabinet, so that the whole of the Government was brought into play. This system ended because that kind of confrontation between two Departments could not continue with one following the other and one trying to examine the work of the other.
Since then, there has been a further decline in the questioning of the rÔle of the Treasury and, because of the diminishing rÔle of the Board of Trade, there is an effective monopoly position at the Treasury and its views are not questioned even by other economic Ministries with Cabinet Ministers, and there is nobody now able to argue against the Treasury view in the Cabinet.
We have had some of the most momentous decisions taken without a full understanding and appreciation of their importance by the Cabinet. Those who, like me, look forward to a reduction of secrecy in the Civil Service, who hope that the Government might become more open, know full well that to bank on this would be placing reliance on a weak foundation. Most of the important decisions tend to be taken in an atmosphere of secrecy which we must try to open up. Although we may ask for this openness, we know that no Government Department, as indeed no group of people
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in any aspect of our industrial, economic or political life, will agree to the ending of secrecy.
One can argue for self-criticism within Departments, which is the idea behind many of the arguments for the conglomerate—that the discussion and questioning will take place—but such self-criticism is beyond the present art of the game.
Everywhere we look to discover some counterweight to the supremacy and the secrecy of the powerful Department. However there is one thing which we have overlooked, and that is the House of Commons. We have underestimated the power of the House of Commons to do this task of criticism which we have tried to devise in all kinds of alternative complicated ways, such as bringing in the D.E.A. to criticise the Treasury or trying to get ways by which matters can reach the Cabinet for open discussion. Yet here in this House there is the forum for the kind of questioning of these Departments that is needed.
The only means by which it can be made effective is through the Select Committee system. It is the importance of the Select Committee which we must use to get that questioning of the Departments. The scandal is that there are Government Departments which do not have to justify themselves to anyone. The obvious example is the Treasury where the Cabinet cannot effectively question the technicalities because it is too complex a Department as well as too powerful. The same situation will occur to a lesser degree with these conglomerate Departments. By all means let us have a smaller Cabinet, let us group Government Departments together, let us delegate responsibility, but side by side with that increase in power must come the ability to do the fundamental questioning about how decisions are arrived at, how views are reached. We must make those responsible for taking these views explain them fully, not in the House where question and answer at best is perfunctory but in the Select Committee where question can follow question.
We all know that in the House the answerer has the advantage. We all know that the one question can easily be foiled. The second question is harder to avoid and when one is able to put the third

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and fourth questions, intelligently and pointedly, but most of all repeatedly, it is then that a true test of the coherence of the Department's view can be made. We need with these reforms the kind of reform involving the use of the House of Commons. I have no objection to this new system of Central Policy Review Staff. Under the supervision of the Prime Minister it will work with Ministers collectively. How long will that be true? I believe that by an inevitable process we shall find the Central Policy Review Staff coming under the control of the Prime Minister. I cannot see all Ministers having equal access to this body. Forces will inevitably dictate that this body should come under the personal control of the Prime Minister. I have no objection to this. [Interruption.] There seems to be a time limit of which I was not aware. I will bring my remarks to a close.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: There is a custom which it would be for the convenience of the House for the hon. Gentleman to follow.
Mr. Sheldon: I am not sure to which custom you are referring, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
There is a function for this planning body. But we must insist that it be fitted in with the greater control which the House can bring to bear on the powers of the Prime Minister.
9.16 p.m.
Mr. Harold Lever: This has been an important debate and, in many respects, very attractive for me because I have often winced as the House has made what are not truly party political issues into bogus party political issues. I am glad to say that that has not been the case today, in spite of the somewhat provocative language in which the White Paper is couched. My right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland), in a speech which was as witty as it was authoritative and comprehensive, set a tone which I am delighted to say was followed on both sides of the House. So who am I to speak in anything but the sense that what we are discussing is, at its heart, a matter which concerns us irrespective of party, namely, how we can improve the quality of government.
I particularly welcomed, was stimulated by and even received great instruc-
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tion from the speeches of my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. William Rodgers) and the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Crouch), which showed precisely that spirit of compassion and understanding for the privileges and duties of the House which I would have expected. It is well to remember, in view of all the zeal for efficiency, that what we are engaged upon is the provision of modern government for the people of Britain, not a large-scale marketing operation for toothpaste. That can sometimes be forgotten when we are talking in language of cost-effectiveness and the like, which is very appropriate to some aspects of government but which should not dominate the whole of our thinking.
I wish briefly to mention the question of the size of Departments. I share the anxieties voiced by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton-on-Tees about what can happen as a result of the enlargement of Departments to vast conglomerates. This is a real danger. My right hon. Friend took the right attitude by saying that we ought to give it a try and see how it works and adopt a constructive attitude towards it. I have pronounced and lingering sympathies with my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton-on-Tees in his worries about these matters, but my feeling is that they will depend largely on how these vast Departments are run and the status accorded to the Ministers in charge. If they are given Cabinet rank, and if the overlord, gauleiter or whatever word one chooses for the head of these vast conglomerates, behaves as he should, with the feeling that he is part of a Ministerial team, and if he remembers his obligations to the House, we can avoid the great dangers which my hon. Friend shrewdly reminded us exist. He will have to do this if he is to avoid consequences to the Civil Service relationship in these vast Departments.
I turn to the question of the Central Capability Unit. In principle, I would welcome anything which added to the illumination of Cabinet when it made decisions in a collective way on Departments where the Ministers voting mostly have little intimate knowledge of the detailed facts. If the appointment of Lord Rothschild is to achieve this—and I am glad to see the Leader of the House nodding his agreement—I would give it

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a conditional welcome. If the idea is not to illumine the decision of Cabinet but to pre-empt and override it by a Professor Lindemann style of behaviour, I would take a different and hostile attitude, and I would hope that hon. Members on both sides would show an equally implacable hostility. If all we are getting is not illumination for the Cabinet, so that the collective decision cannot be nourished by a steady on-going flow of information, but someone who gains the Prime Minister's ear and can exercise a wholly disproportionate influence in giving advice which is not heard by this House and is not checked by this House or by the Ministerial colleagues of the Prime Minister, then, far from welcoming it, I would view it with the deepest resentment and hostility.
I accept the idea which the Parliamentary Secretary to the Civil Service Department expressed in his little booklet, "A New Style of Government", that what we want at the top in Government is—
"more application of the maximum effort and brain power to questions of policy and strategy than to implementation and management."
I wish that the While Paper had more of that flavour, and that what was being brought about was a more informed collective decision on policies and strategies than on the details of management. There is in the White Paper too much flavour of cost-effectiveness for my taste. I should like to have heard more of the hon. Gentleman's idea of this well-informed collective decision on policy and strategy where the maximum brain power and political judgment ought to be concentrated.
If that is what the White Paper is about, I welcome it because the reform of the style of Cabinet work which has been proceeding ought to continue to proceed under this Government so long as they shall be in office, and under any Government. The style of Cabinet work and the way in which it arranges its business owes more to the past than to the responsibilities of the present. Cabinets tend to have brought before them for too much of their time matters which are neither strategic nor major policy but of detail. I hope that under the new dispensation we shall see a further march forward, but my informa-
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tion is that this has been the case for a good time now.
We want the Cabinet to use its brains and its time on the issues that matter. Gresham's law applies in the Cabinet and the trivial drives out the important. In a Cabinet of 20 members which is discussing, say, a capital programme of £800 million for one of the nationalised industries, the only person who is qualified to occupy any time upon it is the Minister of the Department. He says a few words and the proposal will go through. The Cabinet may then perhaps discuss the Government's attitude to the Hare Coursing Bill. Every member of the Cabinet has a point of view on this and the greater part of the Cabinet morning can be taken up by discussing it. There is a great danger of the operation of Gresham's law in which the trivial drives out the important.
If this principle of concentration on important strategic and policy decisions is serious, will the hon. Gentleman say whether it will be applied only at the margin or, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) asked, will it be applied to central economic and financial decisions made by the Treasury? It would be odd indeed if we took care to nourish collective decision on marginal questions while leaving the Cabinet uninformed and inadequately equipped to make the great strategic, economic and financial decisions which in the past have come down from on high from the Treasury after consultation with the Prime Minister.
Is the Central Capability Unit to be potent in this area or has the deft hand of influence castrated it in this area of its activity? If it is to deal only with the margin, we should then have keen and informed Cabinet discussion on the closure of four gas works or on the road programme whereas the Cabinet would be rubber-stamping crucial decisions on parity, overseas investment, the way in which we finance the export trade, and so on and, above all, demand management and the budgetary and monetary policies that support it. Are these matters to come within the Central Capability Unit's function? If they are, I welcome it very much.
I welcome Lord Rothschild's appointment, as did my right hon. Friend. I

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understand that Lord Rothschild is not a man who suffers fools gladly. I am bound to say of my right hon. Friend that he himself has never been known for that weakness or virtue. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. William Rodgers) suggested that he would like to see my right hon. Friend back in the Cabinet, as indeed I would, confronted by Lord Rothschild. That meeting would be interesting. It adds yet another powerful reason for disposing of this Government at the earliest moment and bringing back one in which my right hon. Friend could participate.
Although Lord Rothschild may not be equipped technically to fulfil the wide rÔle that I hope he will be given, there is no reason why he should not be able to bring in the kind of people who can undertake the work. If the Capability Unit is to illumine only the marginal decisions and is not to illumine for Cabinet or for some Cabinet committee central economic and financial decisions, it will be a ridiculous frolic at the margin of politics and a deception of the people that their main policy decisions are being improved by reason of its being brought into being. That means that the consequences and choices of all essential economic policies must be made available to Cabinet or to a committee of Cabinet so that it can make the right decisions.
I will not be fobbed off by talk of accountability in terms of expenditure. By "accountability" I mean accountability for other things than expenditure and, to use a word that I am told is current among adolescents, the House of Commons is a little "hung up" on this question of accountability of expenditure. Historically that was our means of controlling Government decision, but what is the parity or the level at which demand management is set, or what is the policy in overseas investment matter far more than many of the decisions concerning expenditure. If this process is to improve accountability of Government and Cabinet to the House of Commons, it must include accountability on these crucial central economic decisions.
I do not say these things because I am anti-Treasury, as somebody has suggested—probably because of an article I wrote on the subject. I am far from anti-Treasury. It was a great honour and privilege to work with the permanent
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officials of the Treasury and I shall never forget it. It was a pleasure even to disagree with them sometimes and even, more rarely, to overcome them. I believe that decisions cannot be judged as right or wrong in an abstract or technical economic sense. This idea grows more absurd every day. These are political decisions, not purely technical decisions. By that I comprehend that they are moral decisions as well, decisions in which we are all very much concerned. It is wrong and unfair to leave this to officials of the Treasury. It is the responsibility of the Cabinet as well as the responsibility of the House. That is what I want to see changed. I should like to hear from the right hon. Gentleman whether it will be changed in the sense I have suggested.
What we do not want to see is the present situation where the Treasury's expert decision is tempered at the margin by the Chancellor's political judgment and some Prime Ministerial consultation. What we need is political judgment continuously nourished by economic erudition. That is what we want rather than the reverse situation.
I will not go into details of how Cabinet control may be achieved. The suggestion of my hon. Friend concerned an inner committee of the Cabinet, and I endorse that. I go further, because I believe that the Leader of the House, who follows in the footsteps of my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, West (Mr. Crossman) in caring about the power of the House and seeking to extend its legitimate and useful function in the modern world by the extension of the Select Committee system, means every word of it. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give serious consideration to my hon. Friend's suggestion of a Select Committee on economic affairs so that we get Cabinet decisions on strategic questions and a further examination by a Select Committee of those questions so that all these matters are carried into public debate on a level understood by ordinary people.
In our present situation, an economic decision cannot be right if the Government do not carry the people with it. That is half the trouble with the grave situation that we face at the moment. These questions of demand management and monetary management are decided by a small erudite cabal instead of being

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brought out through the control of this House to the attention of an informed public so that the Government can perhaps carry the people behind them in their decisions. They have no hope of it in any other way.
What I am arguing for is true accountability on decisions which affect the safety and standard of life of our people. Those decisions are the central economic and financial decisions. Economics belongs to the academy. Political economy is what the Cabinet is concerned with, and that means political control. I am not satisfied that political control has been reflected adequately in decisions taken over the last 20 years at the central point affecting the country's economic prospects.
It is not as if the tendency to relegate to a small well-informed and unchallengeable cabal has brought any great successes in its train, whether in the military or economic fields, in the history of our country during my lifetime. I always remember the pathos of Siegfried Sassoon referring to the military cabal's decisions of the First World War in his little poem, "The General". I hope that no one will take it amiss when I say that I think that it has a wider application. I will conclude with this poem which hon. Members may adapt as they desire.
However, I ought first to congratulate the hon. Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Mr. Chapman) on his maiden speech. I meant to do it earlier. It was what we expected from a man who has the great honour and privilege of following Lord Boyle in that seat. I can only wish him success and hope that he wins the admiration and affection of his colleagues on both sides of the House as did that distinguished former hon. Member. I apologise for not having thought of it earlier.
I read my concluding poem, which hon. Members may apply as they like in areas other than the military:
"'Good morning, good morning,' the General said
When we met him last week on our way to the line.
Now the soldiers he smiled at are most of 'em dead,
And we're cursing his staff for incompetent swine.
'He's a cheery old card', grinned Harry to Jack
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As we slogged up to Arras with rifle and pack
But he did for them both by his plan of attack."
9.34 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Civil Service Department (Mr. David Howell): The House will agree with the right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham (Mr. Harold Lever) that this has been a wide-ranging and useful debate, with excellent speeches coming from both sides. Except for one or two somewhat cantankerous remarks from the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) at the beginning of his speech, the White Paper has been taken by the House, judged and assessed in a fair and reasonable way.
In the remaining time, the best that I can do is to try to answer some of the questions and points which have been raised. If I do not answer them all, it is because time is against me.
Before doing that, let me add my congratulations to those of the right hon. Member for Manchester, Cheetham to my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Mr. Chapman) for what was an excellent speech. It was lucid and to the point, and it was a relevant point. I hope that we shall hear a lot more from my hon. Friend.
The right hon. Member for Grimsby mentioned Fulton. I should like to make it clear that there is no going back on Fulton by this Government. We support all developments on that front. Fulton was precluded by its terms of reference from looking into the machinery. This White Paper deals with machinery. It is, in a sense, the complementary half of the picture.
Mr. Sheldon: The hon. Gentleman says that he accepts fully all the recommendations of Fulton. Does that apply to the open structure; the unified grading structure?
Mr. Howell: The unified grading structure is a matter with which the Government are pressing ahead, both vertical and horizontal.
I want now to come to the point most frequently raised by hon. Members on both sides: bigness; the question of these big policy clusters and whether they will be effective. First, if we were just

977
ramming together the Board of Trade and the old Ministry of Technology, I agree that would raise serious management problems. But that is not what we are doing. I can make the point by reference to figures. The old Ministry of Technology has a staff of 38,000. The new Department for Trade and Industry has a staff of 27,000. Therefore straightaway the point is made that we are not just shoving the two former Ministries together. That would be unmanageable.
Secondly, the whole spirit and aim of the proposals both in the central Departments and in the major Ministries is that the thing shall be conducted in a spirit of delegation. That is the aim. We have embarked, as the White Paper states, on a wide ranging review of functions. This is part of the process. It is only the beginning in a continuing process. Delegation is the purpose of bringing together these wide policy clusters. Indeed, it can be argued either way: that delegation is not possible unless the big policy clusters are brought together; or, alternatively, that the bringing together of these big policy clusters enables delegation to take place. That is the purpose of creating these large wide policy clusters.
Mr. William Rodgers: Will the hon. Gentleman explain what he means by delegation? Delegation to whom?
Mr. Howell: Delegation of managerial tasks and responsibilities by the Secretary of State to Ministers with specific areas of activity and to those filling in the pattern of accountable management units recommended in Fulton. This is the pattern.
The right hon. Member for Grimsby also touched on planning.
Mr. William Rodgers Mr. William Rodgers rose—
Mr. Howell: I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman. I have very little time to answer questions which have been raised.
The right hon. Member for Grimsby also touched on planning. The Secretary of State for the Environment has a full supporting staff and will take an interest in all strategic planning issues.
The right hon. Gentleman also touched on the question of the Consumer Council. I hope that he will forgive me, but this
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subject seems to have popped into the wrong debate. It will be discussed tomorrow when questions can be put to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. The Government fully recognise their duties in the consumer sphere, but this matter must be thrashed out in its proper place in tomorrow's debate.
I now turn to the major question raised by the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). I value the right hon. Gentleman's opinions, but in this instance I think he was a little unfair. One of the main themes in the White Paper is the insistence on wider identification of goals, on clearer assignment of responsibility, and, in a sense, on an opening out of the structure of Government so that people can see more clearly what is going on.
The White Paper refers to the implications for Parliament, which are important, and to the Green Paper which has since been published. I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman was aware of that. This really meets his point squarely when he claims that there was no concern with openness and democracy in the White Paper. On the contrary, the whole spirit of the thing is conceived in that sense. My view is that the Green Paper, which is linked to the White Paper, provides a golden opportunity for Parliament to revise its procedures and to become a more effective guardian of the public interests and public expenditure than some of us believe it has been recently.
I now come to some other contentious issues. We are to have a debate later on the whole question of the Ministry of Overseas Development and its place, and my right hon. Friend will no doubt answer the comments that are made. From a personal point of view, I followed with interest questions of development programmes and overseas aid at both the recipients' and the donors' ends for many years. I respect the sincerity of those who have expressed fears, but I believe that their fears are misplaced. However, no doubt these things can be discussed in a later debate. Welsh education will also be discussed in a later debate tonight.
I now come to what might be described as the meat of the debate, the central policy review staff and its place and rÔle in what we are proposing. I read with care the article by the right hon. Member

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for Manchester, Cheetham in the New Statesman. I enjoyed it, as I always enjoy his forays into public presses. I read his article very carefully but, with the greatest respect and hesitation in view of his reputation in these matters, I must tell him that in my view his analysis and his view of things is wrong. Perhaps not wholly wrong, but slightly at the wrong angle, for what he is really proposing is that yet again another rival source of economic wisdom and financial policy wisdom should be set up at the centre outside the Treasury. This is precisely the fallacy that led to the setting-up and subsequent closing-down of the D.E.A., and failures of many other kinds.
What I believe is needed at the centre—and this is slightly different—is a device for showing Cabinet Ministers collectively the implications of economic and financial policy of every Government programme—or the policies of other Departments for that matter—and for the grouping of Government programmes as a whole.
Mr. Harold Lever: Does that include matters such as overseas investment, demand management and central monetary management?
Mr. Howell: Those things are very much matters with which the economic policy-making capability is concerned, and will remain concerned with. What I am saying is that the central policy review staff will have the rÔle of bringing to bear the relationship between the policies and the programmes of the Government as a whole, and showing to Ministers collectively how these things can affect each other. That is what the central policy review staff body is designed to do.
I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mr. David Mitchell) that this was not a move in the presidential direction—on the contrary. My hon. Friend asked whether it affected ministerial accountability. It affects the collective rÔle of Ministers in the sense of strengthening it, although it does not affect their individual Ministerial rÔles. That is the central point on the central policy review staff and in it I differ, and make a point of differing, from the line taken by the right hon. Member for Cheetham, because his way lies the long,
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lonely and disastrous road which has been plodded by the advocates of the D.E.A.
I now propose to say something about programme budgeting and the paragraphs in the White Paper which touch on that. The right hon. Member for Grimsby said that it was odd that we were keen on this idea just when the Americans were in difficulties. We have looked carefully at the American experience, and if anything far from learning from their success we have learned from their admitted difficulties. We have looked at other countries and seen the difficulties there. The plain fact is that nearly every Western country is moving towards a more output-orientated form of budgeting process. All this makes sense, and it makes sense if we develop our system in the light of American experience and weaknesses.
The right hon. Member for Grimsby said that the businessmen were in isolation in the Cabinet Office. This is not so. They are based in the Civil Service Department. They are working closely with the Treasury, with the central departments and with the Cabinet Office in developing these ideas. They are not a gang of people in the Cabinet Office separately beavering away, as the right hon. Gentleman depicted. I hope that that makes the position a little clearer.
I now come to another contentious issue which was raised with great energy and eloquence by the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins), that of aircraft noise. It was also raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Handsworth. I believe that there is a misunderstanding here. The point is that the Secretary of State for the Environment obviously cannot control everything. No one could expect him to be a Minister for everything around, or for all manifestations. Because he is concerned with pollution, I am sure that the hon. Member does not expect him to be the Minister controlling or concerned with all industrial policy.
By the creation of the Secretary of State and his staff, and his job, the major concern and the major capability—using that vogue word again—for pushing on the question of noise and other kinds of pollution has been brought into being. Concern for noise is vastly reinforced by this arrangement. It is true that the

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control of airports and of aircraft remains with the Department of Trade and Industry, but the creation of the Department for the Environment creates a force—almost a lobby—in favour of the care of peoples' rights against noise which was not there before. This must be a step in the right direction.
Mr. Hugh Jenkins: As I understand it, the Minister is now suggesting that in spite of the fact that he is not given specific responsibility the Minister for the Environment will be responsible for pollution by aircraft noise. Did I understand that correctly? Is he telling me that my fear that this was excluded is not well founded? Is he saying that the Minister will be responsible in the case of aircraft noise pollution?
Mr. Howell: The hon. Member is trying to force me into an absurd semantic argument. The Minister is concerned for noise and other kinds of pollution. His concern will be echoed and reflected in the line that he and his Department take on these matters. That is the position, and to my mind it is a major improvement on what went before.
Another question raised by many hon. Members concerned the proposition that somehow these ideas amount to a challenge or an affront to the way that politics should work—that politics is all about value-judgments and that it is not possible to analyse things down and distill them and reduce them by these methods and techniques. Of course politics is all about value-judgments, and the political battle will continue as violently and unpredictably as ever. But there can be no argument against better information and better-informed decisions.
One of the purposes of the reforms that we propose on the budgetary side and in the creation of the central policy review staff is to provide a clear backdrop against which the political battle can continue—a more rational backdrop against which irrational decisions may continue to be made. At least we shall know the cost or the divergence which the political course chosen imposes on the community, the Government and the political situation.
As the Lord President of the Council said earlier this afternoon, our aim in all these matters is less government and better government. Our approach makes
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sense in three ways, which are central to the thinking behind the White Paper. First—this is the least important, but I put it first—our approach makes sense in terms of good management. If a Government try to cover everything on a wide front—if Government at the centre try to do everything—they end by doing nothing very well and by falling down in important areas, so that resources are wasted and needs go unidentified. That is the first central point.
Hon. Members may argue that this is a managerial conception, but it is one of the important ones. There is a limit to the kind of burden that we can pile on to central Government without badly straining the machinery. There is a limit, and those who believe—and some hon. Members on both sides of the House may believe—that the answer to many problems is more government, more spending and more commitment by more Government Departments are wrong. They neglect the institutions they are straining at their peril, and are so leading both themselves and their supporters up an intelectual cul-de-sac.
Secondly, we believe that our approach makes sense in terms of people's lives. The purpose of the thinking behind the White Paper is to bring to bear the resources of government more effectively in areas of real need. I know that this strikes hon. Members opposite as being highly controversial, but this is what we have begun to do and will continue to do in our social programme. It is what we have already set out in what we have announced.
Thirdly, we believe that our approach makes sense in terms of the quality—the health, if one likes—of the nation's life in general. The thought behind the White Paper is that a situation in which the State handles almost half the national income—and we can argue about the percentages; I have seen anything between 46 and 52 per cent. offered—and makes half the nation's investment decisions is unhealthy. It undermines incentive, stokes the fires of inflation and separates the State and the people.
Those are the three approaches behind the White Paper. When we came to government, the way in which we applied those three approaches was as follows. In our view, our predecessors seemed to

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be running into three major difficulties. First, there were too many Departments in central Government, and this means too many inter-departmental committees, too much overlapping and confusion in government programmes. This is what we saw in industrial policy. At one time—admittedly not in the last few years—there were up to six Departments involved with industrial policy.
It is arguable, and I suppose it could be said, that one answer would be more total centralisation, more centralisation of management tasks of policy, and that we should bring the whole thing together into a presidential pyramid. That is not our way. On the contrary, our aim is more delegation and more decentralisation—the very opposite of the spirit of centralisation. That is why, as the White Paper clearly explains, we are working through the functions of every Department to see which of them can be moved from the centre.
The right hon. Member for Grimsby mocked our proposition that stability was one of the outcomes of this review for which we honed. Stability in the pattern of Departments is one of the outcomes. We believe that these broad departmental clusters, particularly for environment, represent the major public policy goals which either party would support over the next 10 or 20 years. Perhaps that is too ambitious, so let me say the next 10 years. In terms of departmental shuffling—changing the heading of the writing paper—stability can be achieved. It is extremely important that this should he made clear from the point of view of those in the Civil Service who rightly feel that they are chopped and changed remorselessly at the whim of political fantasy and fashion.
On the other hand, the spirit in which departmental patterns have been conceived is such that within Departments there should be more flexibility and more readiness to respond to new organisations and to adapt organisational and management procedures to meeting new needs. Anything else would be absurd. Needs are changing all the time. If organisations are to be efficient, they have to adapt to those changing needs. Within the department structure, I hope that it will be unnecessary for there to be a vast departmental reshuffle even in
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the distant future, because the pattern has a quality, depth and stability about it which is important.
I referred to the difficulties which we believe our predecessors encountered. I said that the first was the multiplicity of Departments. The second that we saw was the profusion of activities in Departments, some of them duplicating each other. In our view, what was missing was a critical questioning approach to the activities and functions of central Government. The endearing but nonsensical view that everything which the Government do is good and that there should be more of it we believe has to be replaced. The proposals in this White Paper are aimed firmly at replacing it.
We are building into Government—again, the proposals of the White Paper do that—a more questioning state of mind. We have embarked, as I said, on a wide ranging review of departmental functions. This meets the point of the right hon. Gentleman about stability. We are concerned—it will be a continuing and systematic process—with the need to adapt organisation to the policy requirements of the Government.
The third difficulty we saw in the past-I believe that it is one that hon. Members on both sides have identified—was the lack of clarity. I would put it much stronger: there was a downright obscurity about much of what Government were actually doing, what it cost the taxpayer, what the aims were, whether they could be achieved another way, or even whether—I agree that this seems a heretical question—whether it could be done by the private sector or by Government. This was the obscurity we saw, not just in the minds of the public or this House, who were denied the information about what is going on in Government and what it costs, but also in the minds of those who were supposed to be in charge of the Government.
The answer, to repeat what I told the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland, is that there must be much clearer and more forceful identification of goals in Government. This will be greatly helped, of course, by the proposal for more delegation. That means identifying what needs to be done and those who should do it, and giving them the authority to get on with it. One hon. Member

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said that this was a debate not just about bits of Government, not just about one Department or another, but about Government as a whole, about the overall situation and the reform of the machinery of Government. This is the first time, if not in living memory, certainly in many years that this approach has been brought into the public debate. I hope that this debate is only the beginning of the debates in the public and the Press about these fundamentally important issues. This White Paper is part of the foundation for
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a new style of Government. It is, I repeat, only a beginning, but we believe that it is in tune with the wants and aspirations of the people that the Government serve. I commend the White Paper to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House approves the White Paper on the Reorganisation of Central Government (Command Paper No. 4506).

MINISTERS OF THE CROWN
9.58 p.m.
Mr. George Thomas: I beg to move,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Transfer of Functions (Wales) Order 1970 (S.I., 1970, No. 1536), dated 19th October 1970, a copy of which was laid before this House on 19th October, be annulled.
This Order raises major questions for us in Wales. It is of exceptional significance to our people. It proposes a complete dichotomy in our education service in Wales. It will make Wales the only part of the United Kingdom where the education service is not an entity—possibly the only country in the world where primary and secondary education are cut off, so far as Ministerial responsibility goes, from the rest of the education service.
The education of an individual is one process from nursery school through to adult education, and this Order offends against the fundamental unity of the education service. It gives every appearance of very scant consideration of the administrative and educational issues involved.
Let me give the House a brief illustration. Many of our secondary schools serve a dual purpose: they serve the purpose of further education and they serve the purpose of secondary full-time education. If this Order goes through, will education authorities in Wales have to negotiate with the right hon. Lady the Secretary of State for Education and Science on further education facilities and finance and with the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Wales on schooling? If so, an unnecessary duplication of work is involved—that is easy for anyone to see. The division between two Ministers of financial responsibility for the very same school building is an absolute nonsense.
We shall also have the absurdity, if this Order goes through, that youngsters taking their A level in secondary schools will fall to the responsibility of the right hon. Gentleman: their brothers and sisters taking A level at the polytechnics will fall to the responsibility of the right hon. Lady. There is already a dichotomy
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between the polytechnics and the universities that is causing considerable concern in the educational world. It produces a waste of resources and a waste of manpower. As the Minister will know, there is a demand for closing that gap. In this Order the Government appear to be creating a further dichotomy. At a time when we are expecting the raising of the school-leaving age to 16, to separate secondary school work from youth work seems to me to be an act of sheer madness.
Article 2(4) of the Order makes it clear that responsibility for the training and qualification—and the disqualification, which is very important—of teachers remains the responsibility of the right hon. Lady. Equally, responsibility for the appointment of Her Majesty's inspectors of schools in the primary and secondary sphere will remain with the right hon. Lady. The whole tone and character of the schools depends on the quality and the training of the teachers, but in this the right hon. Gentleman has no responsibility at all—it remains the responsibility of the right hon. Lady. The vision and wisdom of Her Majesty's inspectors of schools has considerable influence on the life of the schools in Wales, but under the Order the appointments are not the responsibility of the right hon. Gentleman but of the right hon. Lady.
What a hypocritical pretence of devolution this is. It is quite clear to me at least that the Department of Education and Science, like every other Government Department, resents giving up any of its power and, despite the boasting of the Secretary of State for Wales that because he is Chairman of the Conservative Party he somehow has greater influence in the Cabinet than he otherwise would have, the right hon. Lady has evidently run rings around him, because what she has given him in this Order is the scraps, not the main meal. She has not given Wales anything substantial in education. Real power the right hon. Lady has kept for herself, for responsibility for primary and secondary education means nothing without responsibility for teacher training and supply, and without responsibility for those who inspect the schools.
I must say that I am sorry for the Welsh Department of Education and

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Science. They must be wondering what has hit them. How many civil servants in the Welsh Department of Education and Science will now be on the payroll of the Welsh Office? How many of them will be on the payroll of the right hon. Lady, and to whom will they be answerable? Will they now have to serve two masters instead of one? I understand the Government are putting great stress on the ability of the Permanent Secretary at the Welsh Office to show extra qualities that will enable him to solve the differences that will arise from time to time between the two Ministers. Is it the bureaucrat who is to solve the differences? Who is responsible, and to whom are those people responsible in the Welsh Office?
The Order gives the appearance of being one step forward and three steps backward for education in Wales. Why the haste? What compelling educational reason drives the right hon. Gentleman to say that the Order must come into operation on 5th November, during a school year, and that the Government cannot even wait until the end of the school year for this transfer to take place and for proper consultation? Why are the Government rushing like the Gadarene swine in the New Testament to this unfortunate conclusion?
Criticism has come from the National Union of Teachers, along with the National Association of Schoolmasters and the secondary school teachers. It has come from all except the Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrowan Cymru. The right hon. Gentleman will understand that, I believe. For the right hon. Lady I will translate. They usually do this for me, so I am returning the kindness. I referred to the National Union of Welsh Teachers. With the sole exception of that small body, all education opinion in Wales is critical of the way in which the matter has been handled. The Teacher, which is the organ of the National Union of Teachers, said on 30th October that the National Executive of the N.U.T. condemned the unnecessary haste with which the Government were seeking to implement changes which could affect the education of every child in Wales. That is true. If it means anything at all, it means that the education of every child in Wales is affected by the Order. If that is so, why have the Government said that they could not wait to
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consult the people whose whole life is given to education in Wales, who have unrivalled experience and knowledge at the disposal of the Government?
Not only has the Order been pushed with indecent haste, but I must complain about the high-handed manner in which Ministers have conducted their affairs. The right hon. Lady is the quintessence of courtesy in my personal dealings with her. I never have any personal complaint about the right hon. Lady. But the teachers have. When she offended them over Circular 10/70 she appeared before them in private in sackcloth and ashes and said, "It will not happen again.".
The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher)The Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher) indicated dissent.
Mr. George Thomas: It is no good the right hon. Lady shaking her head. I read closely the report of her meeting with the teachers. She promised full consultation in future. Then the Government behaved in this way, with the teachers struggling to get a hearing. The Welsh Joint Education Committee, a senior administrative body in Wales, tried to get a hearing. Eventually, it was invited to the right hon. Lady's Department, to be fobbed off with seeing not a Minister but a civil servant. Because we do not criticise civil servants in the House, I will not follow that up here. But I can say that it was a very unhappy meeting.
The Secretary of State for Wales was invited to address the All-Wales Conference of N.U.T. representatives. He was also asked to receive a deputation on this matter. He refused both invitations on the ground that he had not completed his thinking on the matter. I regard that as an evidently genuine reason. My complaint is that this thinking should have gone on a little longer. The N.U.T. wrote to him again and asked for a meeting. Again it was refused. He seems singularly unwilling to take advicve from those whose whole life is education and whose concern is for the children in their care.
When the Education Act, 1944, was being prepared, I was a member of the National Executive of the N.U.T. There were two years of close consultation before that Measure came to the House. This is a major upheaval in Wales. This

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is not a slight thing which the Government are working on. The Secretary of State for Education and Science and the Secretary of State for Wales ought to study the ways of the noble Lord, Lord Butler, who, when he had an important Measure of this kind, affecting the life of so many people, made sure that he carried the educational world with him by adequate and proper consultation. The Ministers have adopted a dangerous attitude and I must remind them that no Government are so strong that they can afford to brush off the representations of people whose experience and knowledge entitle them to be heard. The Government need the goodwill of teachers and their conduct in this matter has not only been arrogant but irresponsible. My advice to them is to mend their fences with the teachers in Wales, all the teachers' organisations in Wales, including the N.U.T., the N.A.S. and the secondary organisations, and the Welsh Joint Committee.
When a deputation of hon. Members from this side of the House met Ministers—I apologised to them because I was unable to be there—I understand they were told that this was not the first time that a Transfer of Functions Order had gone through without consultation. Ministers must have been referring there to some time before the Welsh Office was created because I know that the Transfer of Functions Order that went through in my time received the fullest consultation with all the interests concerned, and I did not refuse a single organisation that wanted to come to me to discuss that Order.
My final criticism on this has constitutional overtones. Whatever other reason the Government advance tonight for the Order, the one claim they cannot make is that they have a mandate from the people of Wales to force this carve-up of our education service. It is true that they published these proposals in their General Election manifesto in Wales, and only in Wales. To that extent it was an issue. The Minister of State spoke on the subject—I read the report in the Western Mail—and I spoke on it myself. The Secretary of State did not say a word in the General Election campaign about it. We understand that he was occupied in Hounslow—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hen-
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don."]—Hendon. I apologise to both constituencies. This was an issue with the Welsh electorate. No one else in the United Kingdom was asked to consider it. Only the Welsh electorate was asked to consider it but without the benefit of the advice of the right hon. Gentleman.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Thomas): Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether during the election campaign he expressed his opposition to the transfer of primary and secondary school education to the Welsh Office?
Mr. George Thomas: The right hon. Gentleman must be patient. I am going to educate him in a few more of the facts of life. I shall come to that matter. I want to remind him now that the Welsh people, having seen the manifesto of the Conservative Party, gave an emphatic reply. The Tories were rejected completely in Wales, and this was a major issue before the Welsh electorate. We were dealing with a specifically Welsh matter with which no one else was concerned, or ought to be. The Conservatives won seven seats out of 36 in Wales. They lost 10 deposits in Wales compared with six in 1966. After they had submitted this proposal, the Welsh electorate gave the Tories a lower proportion of the votes in 1970 than they did in the General Election of 1966. The Labour Party won 27 seats out of 36. We did not lose a single deposit. The only opinion that ought to count in the House tonight on this matter is Welsh opinion, because this is a Welsh matter.
Wales prizes its education service more highly than almost anything else, and we object to seeing it dismembered and truncated. We want the Welsh Office. We have a vested interest in the matter. We created the Welsh Office; we strengthened it; we added to its responsibilities just 18 months ago. Taking over the Health Service was a major upheaval for the Welsh Office, and we were committed to the transfer of education to Wales in due time. We are not objecting to the transfer of education. We are objecting to the truncation of education, to the way in which Ministers are giving to Wales what they would not dare to try to give to Scotland. They do not tell the Scots that they may have primary and secondary education: they

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have the education service; it is an entity. It is a crime against the younger generation to break up the education service as is proposed.
Anyone who has served in the Welsh Office has an affection for it. It is a political miracle that in so short a time it wields such a mighty influence in Wales, but this Order places the Welsh Office in a false position. It gives the appearance of a transfer of power, but that is utterly illusory and deceptive. This is gambling with the education of our boys and girls. It is not a transfer of real power. That is still with the right hon. Lady in Curzon Street. This is a pretence at devolution.
I know that the right hon. Gentleman can bulldoze through this Order. I know that he can call on his unseen friends who are around the various parts of the House and can summon them to support him. That is practising the philosophy that Whitehall knows best what is good for Wales. The right hon. Gentleman may do that, but he will be doing a grave disservice to democracy if he behaves in that way.
Mr. Peter Thomas: I see that the right hon. Gentleman is about to go on to something else. I wonder whether he is now in a position to answer the question which I put to him. Did he or did any of his colleagues at any time during the election express their opposition to the transfer of primary and secondary education to the Welsh Office?
Mr. Alec Jones Mr. Alec Jones (Rhondda, West) rose—
Mr. Speaker: We cannot have an intervention on an intervention.
Mr. George Thomas: If the right hon. Gentleman had had the pleasure and privilege of being in Cardiff, West, he would have heard me saying that I supported the transfer of a full education service, but not a truncated service. I speak in the knowledge that my constituents who heard the speech are able to support me in what I say to the right hon. Gentleman tonight and that my words will be reported.
The Secretary of State and the Minister of State seem unperturbed by the potential damage which the break-up of our education service will cause, and they are
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indifferent to the resentment and criticism from informed Welsh educationists. We understand their aloofness. No Welsh constituency will ever again have a chance to reject either.
But we who have kept the confidence of the Welsh electorate—and I have the right to say this to the right hon. Gentleman as both Ministers have seats outside Wales—know that the philosophy which they are advancing was rejected by Wales. By all means let them strengthen the Welsh Office and give education control to the Welsh people, but do not let them gamble with our education service by separating primary and secondary education against the advice and against the will of all informed education opinion.
10.20 p.m.
Mr. Barry Jones: I have received a letter from over 1,000 Flintshire teachers working in the county which I have the honour to represent. The leader of these teachers tells me that his professional colleagues want me to know of their great concern over the implications of the transfer and the manner of putting it through at this time. I do not doubt the sincerity of the Secretary of State for Wales, nor of the Secretary of State for Education, but I must comment on the fact that they seem to have made an excellent job, temporarily, I suppose, of uniting disparate bodies like the local education authorities, the teachers' unions and perhaps even the inspectorate.
This letter mentions what the teachers in Flintshire seem to regard as the highhanded methods of the Government. They seem to think that such methods can only lead to educational disaster. The letter says that they feel that we ought to know in the House of the strong feelings in the profession about this transfer. There is also concern over the effect of the transfer on those plans that some of the L.E.A.s had for setting up sixth form comprehensive colleges. There is genuine concern about the effect the transfer might have on this. Some people say, not necessarily jocularly, that the Secretary of State for Scotland should have his responsibility for higher and further education taken away, in the sense that what is evolutionary sauce for one race is sauce for the other.

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In this situation with its blurred edges and inherent possibilities of conflicting personalities and departments there is a clear need for some independent machinery, some form of independent committee which might monitor the new set up which appears to have an inbuilt rigidity. Any dispute between Cardiff and London could conceivably have injurious effects upon the education of Welsh children.
How, for instance, is the Secretary of State to teach Welsh to the varying age groups in the new situation? Teacher supply, service, education, curricular development and colleges of education are integral factors which cannot be separated from primary and secondary school education. How on earth can we divorce them from the schools themselves? He who does not control these factors cannot grasp firmly the processes of education for the five to 18 years old. It seems that this is the predicament in which the Secretary of State for Wales now finds himself. There are fears too that teachers in Wales are to have different salaries and conditions of service from those in England. Reservations are also being expressed over the future mobility of teachers between the Principality and England. Where in the world educationally is there a fissure so deep as the one between England and Wales concerning the transfer arrangements about which we have heard tonight?
It is believed that as a result of local government reform the provincial councils will have responsibility for further and higher education and that the unitary authorities will hold on to responsibility for the primary—secondary sector. Then there will be difficulties for the teachers' negotiators who wish to exercise their option for negotiation and consultation. To revert to the situation in East Flintshire, it is very odd that a boy could study for his A levels at a local comprehensive school in Flint and know that ultimately he would be under the direction of the Secretary of State for Wales and yet down the road, in the local technical college at Welsterton his brother studying for his A levels would ultimately be under the direction of Curzon Street. This is reprehensible.
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I hope that the Government are aware that in Wales parental interest in education is as keen as it could be. Parents want to know why these measures were rushed through when the academic year was already under way. Why could they not wait until next summer, because there is time enough for teachers, administrators and parents to consider what is to be done in partnership with the Government. The division in responsibilities could be harmful to the schooling of Welsh children. There was, at a vital time, insufficient consultation.
We should have a unified service in Wales. It could be argued that the transfer has been pushed through far too quickly. One could say that the Secretaries of State—in one respect anyway—are too confident of their forensic skills and that they happen to be perhaps the advocates of "Mrs. Dale" territories in Bexhill, Hendon and Finchley and might be regarded as the missionaries to the scholastic descendants of the miners and quarrymen who financed their education from a mile of pennies. One is tempted to think of them as the political counterparts of that well known pyrotechnical partnership Bonnie and Clyde. They have been shooting up the time-honoured traditions of consultation and consideration. One could say that they have been robbing the educational banks of trust and co-operation.
10.28 p.m.
Mr. Alec Jones: I suppose that I should apologise to hon. Members for delaying the opportunity of coming speedily to a decision, but if there is to be any apology it should come from those who arranged the business of the House and were so naive as to believe that it was reasonable to accommodate this issue, which fundamentally affects the education system of Wales, in one debate on the White Paper.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Civil Service Department, who wound up the previous debate, said that he was building in to the reorganisation of government a more questioning frame of mind. I dispute that, because this Order denies the people affected by it the right to ask the questions and to receive the answers.

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We are discussing the decision to transfer responsibility for primary and secondary education in Wales to the Secretary of State for Wales. This is a decision which charitably-minded people might regard as at least unnecessary but which others more informed would regard as stupid. The Order is being implemented with indecent haste, and the Government have adopted an arrogant attitude in ignoring the views of teachers' organisations, education authorities and others who are fundamentally affected by and concerned with the educational system in Wales.
Paragraph 11 of the White Paper "The Reorganisation of Central Government" states:
"The emphasis is on the grouping of functions together in departments with a wide span, so as to provide a series of fields of unified policy. This continues the trend towards unification of functions which has evolved in recent years …"
Yet the Order proposes the opposite. It proposes that the educational service in Wales should not be a "field of unified policy", but that primary and secondary education should be detached from the remainder of the educational service; thus producing a series of anomalies and weakening the educational service in Wales.
My hon. Friend the Member for Flint, East (Mr. Barry Jones) has referred to the anomaly of the student taking A levels in a secondary school under the control of Cardiff, while a student taking the same examination in a technical college comes under the control of London. Government inspectors will be reporting on one day to the Education Office in Wales and on the following day to the Department of Education and Science.
An effective control over primary and secondary education in Wales exercised by the Secretary of State for Wales can only be achieved if the Secretary of State has control over the supply of teachers and the quota system now in operation. This is not envisaged, and the control proposed is a shadow of what sensible people would regard as effective. The Order leaves behind more questions than it attempts to answer. The line is to be drawn at primary and secondary education, but why not include further education? In many parts of Wales vocational education is geared to the requirements
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of the new Welsh industries. Why not include the youth service, which is of special concern to the localities?
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member may denounce the Order but he cannot amend it.
Mr. Jones: I bow to your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, but I assumed that I was denouncing the Order by pointing out its absolute failure even to attempt to solve the problems of Wales.
If there had to be a Transfer of Functions Order for education, surely responsibility for the Arts Council should have been transferred, since Wales is renowned for having a culture of its own. The only justification for this order is the fact that it is in the Tory manifesto. If this is to be the new gospel according to St. Peter, let it at least be an honest one and a complete one. Let it not conveniently omit all those measures so disastrous to the people of Wales which were announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer last week.
Sir William Alexander, who is not always recognised as the teachers' best friend, has criticised the piecemeal nature of this Order and has condemned it as being silly. The Association of Education Committees is strongly against it and believe it to be creating a stupid dichotomy.
The education service in Wales is a service of which the people of Wales are rightly proud. It is a service that cannot afford the luxury of any silly or stupid decision that ignores the views of most educationists that education at all levels should be a unified service. This is what the original White Paper discussed by the House earlier seemed to advocate, and this is what this Order specifically denies.
Why the indecent haste in pushing through this Order? It has been suggested that the transfer does not involve any major administrative change. If this is so, why bother to do it at all? If it is not so and major changes are involved, why not allow time to explain the nature and consequences of the changes to all interested parties in Wales—not only to teachers' organisations and education committees, but to all in Wales who are vitally concerned in providing the best educational service for their children?

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If the anomalies that many in Wales think will be created by this Order are said to be non-existent, figments of our imagination, why not allow time to clarify any of the doubts that may exist? The draft Order to implement these changes was issued on 15th October and teacher organisations in Wales were asked to submit their comments by 23rd October. That gave them eight days in which to comment on changes in an educational structure that had lasted a hundred years. Why must the Order be operative from 5th November? Is there some mystical significance in that date? The only significance that I know of was a significance for this House in days gone by, but there is no significance in that date for the structure of education in Wales.
The only explanation for this unseemly haste is that the Government were so unsure of their case that they felt that by acting swiftly they could prevent discussion, that they could present all concerned with a fait accompli and so minimise the effectiveness of any reasoned, reasonable and constructive criticism. I emphasise the word "constructive" because, from the teachers' organisations, the education committees and the Welsh Joint Education Committee, the Minister could not have expected anything other than constructive criticism.
It is obvious that the Government have sought deliberately to prevent discussion. They denied to the teachers' organisations and the Welsh Joint Education Committee any real democratic consultation on matters affecting them. They are bodies with a unique experience of responsibility for education in Wales, yet they are denied consultation on matters which they feel are of fundamental importance.
It is well known that the representatives of the four teachers' organisations walked out of a meeting at the Department of Education and Science on 20th October. They did so because they knew then that the Government did not intend having any real consultations about transferring the functions of primary and secondary education to the Secretary of State for Wales.
No one who has lived in Wales for any length of time can regard the Welsh
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Joint Education Committee as a revolutionary body, yet it said:
"Not only would the Secretaries of State"—
this applies to both Secretaries of State"—
"not meet us when we requested interviews, but a major amendment of an Act has been made with no proper public discussion."
Surely that is sufficient indication to any responsible Minister that he should be prepared to say that he will have second thoughts.
I have referred to the decision itself, to the hasty implementation of the decision, and to the lack of consultation in coming to that decision. The Government's only answer has been to say that it is in the manifesto. If their attitude is to be the manifesto, the whole manifesto, and nothing but the manifesto, consultation between the Government and bodies interested in Education in Wales is a waste of time. The Order indicates that that is the Government's view. Those who drew up the Conservative manifesto will be responsible for the unfavourable and unhealthy atmosphere which they have deliberately created in the educational service of Wales.
The Government were sure that their case was right and sound, but there is still time for them to take back the Order, carry out the fullest consultation with the people concerned and then, if they are still convinced that their case is sound, bring it forward again—in which case I shall still oppose it. Unless the Government indicate that they are prepared to do that, I hope that my hon. Friends will vote down this proposal.
10.45 p.m.
Mr. Roy Hughes: I have no objection to devolution of functions. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. George Thomas), the former Secretary of State for Wales, who pointed out with pride that the Labour Government established the office of Secretary of State for Wales and also that further measures of devolution followed during that Government's term of office in health and in agriculture.
Our objection is essentially that the Government are splitting the education service in Wales. We can imagine the difficult situation with which local authorities will be faced in dealing with two separate Ministries, whereas previously their activities had been confined to one

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Ministry. We must also take into consideration that soon the school leaving age will be raised to 16. As a result, there will be a considerable linking between schools and colleges of further education. Again, we will have more confusion as a result of this proposal.
I appreciate that in the long run the situation could be rectified with a further measure of devolution—the delegation to the Welsh Office of responsibility for further education. However, there can be no doubt that for Welsh education this present move is indeed damaging.
What has irritated education circles in Wales more than anything is the lack of consultation. It seems rather typical of Tory control, because, in an education debate in this House a few months ago, I had occasion to point out that the Tory-controlled education committee in Newport had adopted this arrogant manner of trying to push through proposals which would fundamentally alter the comprehensive system there. This is a similar move in a similar direction.
The atmosphere which has been created in education in Wales can be gleaned from a report in the Western Mail of 21st October by the Education and Science Correspondent, Peter Jones, who wrote:
"Teachers' representatives from Wales stormed out of a meeting with Department of Education and Science officials in London yesterday.
They had been told there was no possibility of consultation on the transfer of responsibility for primary and secondary education to the Welsh Office."
He goes on to point out:
"Teachers later described the department's attitude on the transfer, which becomes effective on 5th November, as 'high-handed' and 'arrogant'."
Those words speak for themselves.
It is noticeable that the teachers' organisations are not normally particularly united bodies; but, in the attitude that they have taken on this issue, even the N.U.T. and the National Association of Schoolmasters seem to be united. So the Conservative Government have indeed done a formidable job.
I notice, too, that the important Welsh Joint Education Committee is indignant. Again, I quote from the report in the Western Mail:
"At a similar meeting with Welsh education chiefs earlier, the chairman of the Welsh Joint
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Education Committee, Lord Heycock, protested to ministry officials in 'the strongest possible terms' over the absence of the Education Minister, Mrs. Margaret Thatcher, and the Secretary of State for Wales, Mr. Peter Thomas."
Again, this demonstrates the attitude of the Welsh Joint Education Committee to its transfer of functions. That is the overall effect that it is having in Wales.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda, West (Mr. Alec Jones) said, it is symbolic that the operational date for this proposal is 5th November. It seems that in Wales the whole thing is ready to go up in flames. We want devolution, but it must be devolution in an orderly manner, and not at any price. As I see it, this Order will be pushed through the House tonight by English Members of Parliament, led by the Secretary of State, the Member for Hendon, South, and his lieutenant the hon. Member for the English constituency of Hereford (Mr. Gibson-Watt).
10.50 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Thomas): May I say at the outset that I am going to resist the temptation of joining the right hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. George Thomas) in party political controversy in a debate which I consider to be important, relating, as it does, to education.
I listened with great interest to the contributions that we have had from the hon. Members for Flint, East (Mr. Barry Jones), Rhondda, West (Mr. Alec Jones), and Newport (Mr. Roy Hughes), and I hope that in the course of what I have to say I shall be able to reply to some of the points that have been made and to refer to the differences which appear to exist between us.
I should like to emphasise two major facts which must not be lost sight of in discussing the details of this transfer of functions Order. The first fact, and it was referred to by the hon. Member for Newbury, is that the extension of the devolution of Government, which is what we are debating, is a matter of great significance. The theme and purpose of trying to bring government nearer to those who are affected by it are, I hope, matters about which there is no dispute in the House. By this Order the Government are demonstrating their loyalty to that concept.

1003
I have listened carefully to the debate, and I think it is right to say—although I was not quite certain about the hon. Member for Rhondda, West—that the concept of further executive devolution is accepted by all who have spoken in this debate.
Mr. Alec Jones: My opposition is to the splitting of educational responsibility between two Ministers.
Mr. Peter Thomas: I gather that, and that therefore the hon. Gentleman is in favour of executive devolution. Although the Labour Party made no reference to it during the General Election, I gather that the hon. Gentleman is in favour of the devolution of responsibility for education to the Welsh Office.
Mr. Alec Jones: It is unusual for the right hon. Gentleman to make that point. He must be aware that the Welsh Council of Labour submitted evidence on the question of the further devolution of real power to Wales, whereas the Conservative Party submitted no evidence of any sort.
Mr. Peter Thomas: I take it, from what the hon. Gentleman has said, that he is in favour of the devolution of education to the Welsh Office, and that is the first major consideration that we have to bear in mind.
The second major consideration which towers over the mechanics of this development is that it is about the education of Welsh children who live in Wales, and for any Welshman there cannot be a more significant interest. For all of us born in Wales recognition of the importance of education is bred in the marrow. To say that education has been and is one of the greatest themes of our national life is to understate the situation which has been and continues to be a passion in the Principality—and long may it be so—a way of enhancing the quality of individual life and giving those with native talent the chance to serve better themselves, their neighbours and their country.
I want now to refer to the Order, because the right hon. Gentleman clearly was somewhat confused as to exactly what is being transferred. It is important that we should see clearly what is being transferred and what is not. The Order
1004
transfers all the functions that were exercised by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science under Parts II and III of the Education Act, 1944, and subsequent Education Acts in respect of primary and secondary schools, including special and nursery schools, direct grant schools and independent schools in Wales. These functions include the compilation of school building programmes, grants and loans to voluntary schools, registration of independent schools, school health and dental services, handicapped pupils, and nursery education. All those functions are transferred to the Welsh Office, under my sole executive responsibility. That is what the right hon. Gentleman described as scraps.
I agree that they do not include further and higher education, youth and adult welfare and adult education; nor do they include the training, qualifications or pay of teachers, or matters relating to the conduct of teachers—a matter that the teachers were somewhat concerned about. They appear to be glad that those functions have not been transferred.
The main point, as I understand it, of the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues concerning the substance of the Order is as to the location of the division of responsibility. This Order is criticised—I think I am right in saying this, although I was not sure whether hon. Members opposite thought that there should be no division at all—by the teachers and by the W.J.E.C. when it met my right hon. Friend because it draws a line between responsibility for school education and responsibility for other functions and, in particular, divides school from further education.
I want to make two points on that. First, there has to be a line somewhere. The right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues did not give any indication of their feeling about higher education, but it would not be practicable or sensible to transfer all educational functions—for example, responsibility for university grants, or teachers' salaries and superannuation. From discussions that I have had about polytechnics—referred to by the right hon. Gentleman—and universities, which are a form of higher education that has a large intake from outside Wales, I gather that it is generally

1005
accepted—I have not heard any educationist say otherwise—that they should be a United Kingdom responsibility.
Wherever the line is drawn there will be some difficulties or anomalies. I accept that. The hon. Member for Flint, East talked about blurred edges. Someone is bound to argue that the line should have been drawn somewhere else. We carefully considered this and came to the conclusion that the line could best be drawn so that all functions to do with schools are transferred. Our view was, and is, that this group of functions, including child care and the urban programme, which are also transferred, form a reasonably coherent sector which can be conveniently operated as a whole.
School education is an aspect of education that has always been a special concern and pride to the Welsh people, and where some of the educational differences peculiar to Wales are most in evidence, particularly as regards the Welsh language. It is in this sector that people—parents and others—particularly feel the need to look to someone nearer than in Whitehall to think about their problems and, where necessary, hear their appeals. On the other hand, we came to the conclusion that there are substantial arguments for not transferring responsibility for further education. At its upper end, further education forms a part of higher education and such matters as policy with regard to polytechnics and distribution of advanced courses of further education needed to be handled on the wider England-and-Wales basis. This applies to other issues of further education, notably policy on further education examinations, questions of government of colleges and the interrelationship of further education and industrial training, in all of which important developments are going on.
Criticism has been expressed about what the right hon. Gentleman described as a "complete dichotomy". I do not feel that there is any reason to fear that the result of transferring school functions to the Welsh Office while leaving further education with the Department of Education and Science should produce a dichotomy. In the first place, the main responsibility for the planning of provision and for day to day policy in these two sectors rests with individual local education
1006
authorities. It is for them to ensure that there is a unified approach to provision in their areas.
Second, as regards the machinery of central Government, careful thought has been given to devising arrangements which will ensure the closest possible co-operation between the Department of Education and Science and the Welsh Office, both in dealing with school matters which concern both countries and in ensuring a coherent policy as between schools and further education. The same senior official in Cardiff will be responsible for advising Ministers on both school and further education matters. This official will be on the strength of the Welsh Office, advising the Welsh Ministers on school functions, but continuing to advise Education Ministers on further education and other non-transferred matters. The staff dealing with both groups of functions will continue to work side by side in the same premises in Cardiff, which will in future be known as the Welsh Education Office.
The right hon. Gentleman asked how many of the civil servants would be on the strength of the Welsh Office. The answer is, all except four. So all those civil servants in the Welsh Office except four will be on the staff of the Welsh Office, and H.M.I.s will also be attached to the Welsh Office and will continue to work as a single body, advising, as now, on the whole range of functions.
Mr. George Thomas: Is the Secretary of State saying that Her Majesty's inspectors of schools will be appointed by him and on the payroll of the Welsh Office?
Mr. Peter Thomas: No, I said that they would be attached to the Welsh Office: they will not be appointed by me. They will be working for the Welsh Office in respect of primary and secondary schools and will be working for my right hon. Friend in respect of those functions which have not been transferred. The right hon. Gentleman knows from his own experience that Government Departments are used to close co-operation in matters like this. It is not uncommon for specialist advisers to advise different Ministers. One can think of many examples. H.M.I.s are one: chief medical officers are another. I have no reason to think that these arrangements will not

1007
work satisfactorily. I can assure the House that both the staff of the Welsh Education Office and Her Majesty's inspectorate in Wales will from the outset regard it as one of their major objects to ensure a unified approach and close co-ordination of the policies in dealing with the school and further education sector.
I now move to the major criticism from the other side—the question of what is described as undue haste, insufficient consultation. The basic decision to make this transfer was a policy decision, foreshadowed in the Conservative Party manifesto for Wales and announced in the Queen's Speech. This decision involved changes in the machinery of government which, as the right hon. Gentleman will know, are essentially matters for the Prime Minister and the Civil Service Department. He will recall the transfer of health. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman remembers the dates. The transfer of health was done in this way: it was announced during the debate on the Address. The Order was made on 18th March, 1969. It was laid on 24th March, 1969. It came into operation on 1st April, 1969, seven days later.
The right hon. Gentleman said he had consultation. I have made inquiries about this. The right hon. Gentleman did not consult anyone or any bodies as to whether or not that function, health, should be transferred to the Welsh Office.
Mr. George Thomas: Would the right hon. Gentleman say of whom he made inquiries to get this remarkable statement? Will he take it from me that I did not refuse to see a single body which approached me, as he has refused to see them?
Mr. Peter Thomas: I am talking about consultation. Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that if a body dealing with health had come to him to discuss with him whether or not health should be transferred to the Welsh Office he would have engaged in such consultation?
Mr. George Thomas: Does the right hon. Gentleman want an answer? Of course I am always willing to talk, and, unlike the Secretary of State, I did not think I knew it all.
Mr. Peter Thomas: The right hon. Gentleman knows full well that when matters involve changes in the machinery of government there is never consultation on them. In this instance it was clearly desirable to announce these changes along with all the other changes in the machinery of central government announced in the Government's White Paper of 15th October. It was therefore not possible to arrange for any consultations with outside bodies prior to that date.
However, it was provided that this Order, exceptionally, although it was laid on 18th October, was not to come into effect until 5th November. This interval was provided precisely in order to enable the Departments to have consultations with the bodies concerned. The right hon. Gentleman will notice that there is a difference between the seven days in his Order, and the two and a half weeks in this, to enable consultations to take place.
In fact, on the day the White Paper was published a letter went out from the Department of Education and Science to the local authority and teachers' associations, sending them, in confidence, a draft of the circular explaining how the machinery would work after transfer and inviting their comments. Arrangements were made by a senior official of the Department of Education and Science to hold two meetings on 20th October at which the arrangements could be explained in more detail, and the associations would have an opportunity to comment. It is quite usual—although the right hon. Gentleman says a Minister should have been present—for the associations to be received by officials on these occasions.
Both the local authority associations and the teachers' associations accepted these invitations. The local authority associations took the opportunity to make comments which have been taken into account. Unfortunately, the teachers associations withdrew from the meeting without making any comment on the ground that the basic policy of the transfer was not open to discussion.
Since then, as the right hon. Gentleman knows and as I mentioned, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science and I together received

1009
a group of hon. Members from Wales—I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman was not able to join us on that occasion. Subsequently, my right hon. Friend had a long talk with a group of Welsh members of the National Union of Teachers, which I know my right hon. Friend found of very real value: I hope the members of the deputation found the same. And I have myself had a talk with the Chairman of the Welsh Joint Education Committee, which I, too, found helpful.
The right hon. Gentleman said that I refused to see the National Union of Teachers. I could not see the National Union of Teachers in order to be consulted on the principle of the transfer, but I said to the National Union of Teachers that I would arrange for them to see Mr. Leslie Jones, the Secretary of the Welsh Office, so that they could put any representations before him they wished, and they refused to do that.
I want to emphasise that I have been and will continue to be anxious to have consultations on all educational issues affecting schools in Wales with the bodies concerned—with the Welsh Joint Education Committee and other local authority associations, and with the teachers. I am arranging, subject to this Prayer being defeated, to meet the Welsh Joint Education Committee and also the chairman and directors of the Welsh local education authorities as soon as that can be arranged.
With this transfer, I am confident that we can open up a new and stimulating chapter in the relationship between the people of Wales and primary and secondary education. It is a task in which the Welsh Office, and I myself, personally, will be unremitting in trying to do a good job. I shall make it my business and the business of my officials to make and maintain the closest contacts with the
education authorities in Wales and with the teachers.
I believe that, in a sense, we shall be getting the best of both worlds—a continued close relationship with the main vehicle of national higher education and a close knowledge and local responsibility for primary and secondary education. I am happy to think that one of my first and rewarding jobs will be to allocate the extra resources for primary school building which the Government have announced as part of our public expenditure programme. The extent of the Welsh allocation will be announced shortly. By means of these arrangements, I believe that Wales will not merely sustain but enhance its character as a country where the best in national life and the best in education run together.
Apart from the criticism which has been expressed of late, in the last few weeks, I have heard no other criticism in Wales about the transfer of primary and secondary school education. This was announced in the election and in the Queen's Speech. Any educationist would know it referred to primary and secondary education. It is only at this late hour that certain right hon. and hon. Members see fit—
Mr. George Thomas: Nonsense.
Mr. Peter Thomas: —to attack these arrangements—
Mr. George Thomas: You know it is not.
Mr. Peter Thomas: —with the vehemence which he showed at the beginning of the debate. I commend the Order—the people of Wales are anxious that the transfer should take place—and I ask the House to reject the Prayer.
Question put:—
The House divided: Ayes 142, Noes 180.

Division No. 16.]

AYES

[11.16 p.m.

Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

Buchan, Norman

Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

Allen, Scholefield

Campbell, I. (Dunbartonshire, West)

Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

Carmichael, Neil

Davis, S. Clinton (Hackney, Central)

Armstrong, Ernest

Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

Ashton, Joe

Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

Atkinson, Norman

Clark, David (Colne Valley)

Dempsey, James

Barnes, Michael

Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

Doig, Peter

Barnett, Joel

Concannon, J. D.

Dormand, J. D.

Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

Conlan, Bernard

Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

Bidwell, Sydney

Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, Central)

Douglas-Mann, Bruce

Bishop, E. S.

Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Dunn, James A.

Blenkinsop, Arthur

Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)

Dunnett, Jack

Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

Davidson, Arthur

Faulds, Andrew

Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

Lyons, Edward (Bradford, East)

Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

Forrester, John

McBride, Neil

Roper, John

Freeson, Reginald

McCann, John

Rose, Paul B.

Galpern, Sir Myer

McCartney, Hugh

Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

Gilbert, Dr. John

McGuire, Michael

Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)

Golding, John

Mackenzie, Gregor

Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

Grant, George (Morpeth)

McNamara, J. Kevin

Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

Grant, John D. (Islington, East)

Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

Sillars, James

Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

Silverman, Julius

Hardy, Peter

Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

Skinner, Dennis

Harper, Joseph

Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

Smith, John (Lanarkshire, North)

Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

Meacher, Michael

Spriggs, Leslie

Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

Stallard, A. W.

Healey Rt. Hn. Denis

Mendelson, John

Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

Heffer Eric S.

Millan, Bruce

Stoddart, David (Swindon)

Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

Milne, Edward (Blyth)

Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

Hughes, Dr. Mark (Durham)

Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

Strang, Gavin

Hughes, Roy (Newport)

Murray, Hn. Ronald King

Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)

Hunter, Adam

Ogden, Eric

Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

O'Halloran, Michael

Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

O'Malley, Brian

Tinn, James

John, Brynmor

Oswald, Thomas

Torney, Tom

Jones, Barry (Flint, East)

Palmer, Arthur

Varley, Eric G.

Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West)

Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

Wainwright, Edwin

Kaufman, Gerald

Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

Kelley, Richard

Pendry, Tom

Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

Kerr, Russell

Pentland, Norman

Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

Latham, Arthur

Perry, Ernest G.

Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

Lawson, George

Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

Leadbitter, Ted

Prescott, John

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Leonard, Dick

Probert, Arthur

Mr. Reginald Eyre and

Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold

Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

Mr. Jasper More.

Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)

Rhodes, Geoffrey

NOES

Adley, Robert

Fortescue, Tim

Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

Foster, Sir John

Le Marchant, Spenser

Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

Fowler, Norman

Loveridge, John

Astor, John

Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

MacArthur, Ian

Atkins, Humphrey

Gardner, Edward

McCrindle, R. A.

Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

Gibson-Watt, David

McLaren, Martin

Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

Goodhew, Victor

McNair-Wilson, Michael

Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

Grant, Anthony, (Harrow, C.)

McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

Benyon, W.

Gray, Hamish

Madel, David

Biffen, John

Green, Alan

Maude, Angus

Biggs-Davison, John

Grieve, Percy

Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)

Grylls, Michael

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Boscawen, R. T.

Gummer, Selwyn

Mills, Peter (Torrington)

Bowden, Andrew

Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

Bray, Ronald

Hannam, John (Exeter)

Miscampbell, Norman

Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)

Bruce-Gardyne, J.

Hastings, Stephen

Moate, Roger

Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M)

Havers, Michael

Molyneaux, James

Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

Hawkins, Paul

Money, Ernle D.

Chapman, Sydney

Hayhoe, Barney

Monks, Mrs. Connie

Churchill, W. S.

Hicks, Robert

Monro, Hector

Clark, William (Surrey, East)

Hiley, Joseph

Montgomery, Fergus

Clegg, Walter

Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

Cockeram, Eric

Holt, Miss Mary

Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

Cooke, Robert

Hordern, Peter

Mudd, David

Coombs, Derek

Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia

Murton, Oscar

Cormack, Patrick

Nicholls, Sir Harmar

Costain, A. P.

Howell, David (Guildford)

Normanton, Tom

Critchley, Julian

Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, North)

Onslow, Cranley

Curran, Charles

Hunt, John

Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Owen, Idris (Stockport, North)

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Page Graham (Crosby)

Dean, Paul

James, David

Page, John (Harrow, W.)

Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.

Jessel, Toby

Percival, Ian

Dixon, Piers

Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

Pike, Miss Mervyn

Dodds-Parker, Douglas

Jopling, Michael

Pink, R. Bonner

Dykes, Hugh

Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

Pounder, Rafton

Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

Kershaw, Anthony

Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

King, Evelyn (Dorset, South)

Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

Fell, Anthony

King, Tom (Bridgwater)

Proudfoot, Wilfred

Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

Kitson, Timothy

Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

Fidler, Michael

Knight, Mrs. Jill

Raison, Timothy

Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

Knox, David

Redmond, Robert

Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

Lane, David

Reed, Laurance (Bolton, East)

Fookes, Miss Janet

Langford-Holt, Sir John

Rees, Hn. Peter (Dover)

1012

1013

Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

Ward, Dame Irene

Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

Stokes, John

Weatherill, Bernard

Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

Sutcliffe, John

Wilkinson, John

Russell, Sir Ronald

Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

St. John-Stevas, Norman

Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)

Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

Sharples, Richard

Tebbit, Norman

Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

Woodnutt, Mark

Shelton, William (Clapham)

Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

Worsley, Marcus

Sinclair, Sir George

Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

Soref, Harold

Tilney, John

Younger, Hon. George

Speed, Keith

Trafford, Dr. Anthony

Spence, John

Trew, Peter

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Stainton, Keith

Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

Mr. William Hamling and

Stanbrook, Ivor

Waddington, David

Mr. Kenneth Marks.

Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

Walder, David (Clitheroe)

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Transfer of Functions (Overseas Aid) Order 1970 be made in the form of the draft laid before this House on 27th October.—[Mr. Richard Wood.]
11.25 p.m.
Mrs. Judith Hart: The Opposition oppose this Order and it will be with some degree of dismay and indignation, disappointment and anger that we shall go into the Lobby and vote against it. When one looks at this aspect of the White Paper and amidst the tremendous transfer of functions that is taking place, one is bound to look for the profound and powerful reasons which have led the Government to propose the complete abandonment of the Ministry of Overseas Development as we set it up and as we knew it, and its merger with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
There is only one sentence in the section in the White Paper on overseas aid to give us any kind of inkling or understanding of why the Government reached this conclusion. It says:
"The Government have reviewed with particular care the future organisation of government in the aid field against the background of considerable public interest at home and abroad and of the need to engage the private sector of industry, commerce and finance to a greater extent than hitherto."
We are aware, from the aid policies of the Conservative Party, as presented in its election manifesto and as stated by the Prime Minister in New York, and, indeed, in a number of the new emphases which have been given since the Government took office, that we are likely to see an increased emphasis on private investment and its role in the developing world, as distinct from the contribution that official aid programmes make. Nevertheless, it is a little difficult to see why that point
1014
of view should have been expressed in the merger of the Ministry of Overseas Development with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, which is one of the Departments of Government which is least concerned with industry, commerce and finance. So we can find no justification for the merger in that view of the Conservative Government and the introduction to the merger presented to us in the White Paper:
Then we come to the key sentence:
"They have come to the conclusion that, in order to unify ministerial responsibility for overseas policy, overseas aid should become the ultimate responsibility of the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs."
Quite apart from the tautology, that sentence does not throw a great deal of light on the innermost thinking of the Prime Minister, the Lord President of the Council, the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and those others in the Government who supported this move when they were discussing what form of reorganisation of the Whitehall machinery should take.
We are bound to ask what reasons there might be. Could it simply be that there is a theoretical addiction to umbrella Ministers? Is it no less and no more than that? Some of the arguments we heard earlier from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Civil Service Department would lend support to the idea that there is a good deal of theory in the support for rather arbitrary mergers without any necessary justification in logic. It may be that there are simply one or two people in the Government who believe passionately in large umbrella Departments and do not care how they create them or what they sacrifice to do it. It may be that the Prime Minister was looking at the arithmetic of the number of Departmental Ministers, did not think that he had cut it down enough and decided to cut out

1015
the Ministry of Overseas Development as well.
We know that this merger is no part of the thinking of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office itself. So far as I can discover, no pressure came from that Department for a take-over or merger, nor was there any pressure for it within Whitehall as a whole. There was no pressure of argument that this was a logical step to take. So it is not that.
Nor can it be an argument directed towards saving civil servants, because in the staff of the Ministry of Overseas Development are the people who will administer the British aid programme to maximum effectiveness, and it would be possible to reduce the number of civil servants in the Ministry, or in the new F.C.O., only if the aid programme were to be reduced, and we are glad to see that it is not. We are very glad to see that the Government are at least able to take credit for one cut which is not to be made in the programmes of the Labour Government for an expansion in the aid programme.
So it could be only that the Government were prepared to sacrifice the effectiveness of the administration of the aid programme, and I am sure that that would not fit Conservative views about efficient management and making the use of money spent in Government as effective as possible. So it cannot be that. There cannot be any reason linked with possible saving of either money or civil servants. And so we have rejected a number of possibilities.
Among the 1,600 staff the F.C.O. now has under its umbrella from the former Ministry of Overseas Development I am happy to say that the Foreign Secretary will have the great advantage of having a considerable influx of bright, young economists, more than 30 of them. I remember—he must know this—that when I was Minister of State at the Commonwealth Office, I introduced an economics Department into the Commonwealth Office. The Foreign Secretary will now be able to make use of it. With more than 30 economists, he may be able to ask them to spare a little time to make some rough economic assessment of, for example, the benefits to Britain and the disadvantages of supplying arms to South Africa. There may be enough of them
1016
to do that, and that would be of great advantage to us.
One continues to look around for some kind of logic in this decision. It may be that the Government have been looking at the United States and decided that it would be a good idea to follow suit, to copy something the Americans have done, and put aid in the same department as foreign policy. If the Government are merging a Department concerned essentially with foreign policy with a Department concerned with development in the third world and the administration of aid programmes because of the example of the United States, I must say that we shall be in great danger of arriving at exactly the aid weariness which now exists in the United States. If the Foreign Secretary is not aware of this, let me tell him exactly what the position there is. This is based on my own discussions with people who are concerned with aid in the United States.
The reason why there is no enthusiasm for aid and development in the United States and the reason why the American aid programme is abysmally low and the reason why, even if every other major donor country came up to scratch on the 1 per cent. target, the total flow of resources from the rich world to the poor world would still be lower than it was because of the low level of American aid, is that in the United States foreign policy has been intertwined with aid policy. Disillusion with the war in Vietnam has led to disillusion with aid because, as the right hon. Gentleman must know, the Appropriations Bill in the United States mixes the two and if one votes for aid, one is also voting for the direct foreign policy implications, which may or may not be popular with people who are asked to vote for a greater transfer of resources in aid. If this is the position towards which we are to move, it will be a dangerous path along which the Government will tread.
Can it be that the Government have studied other donor countries? I think not, because it is my impression of the attitude of other major donor countries that they have admired the way in which aid was administered in Britain with so much of our aid policy concentrated in one Department and, secondly, an idependent Ministry with an independent Minister; so it cannot be that.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: Since the right hon. Lady's imaginative efforts seem to be flagging at the moment in advancing reasons against this move, might I suggest one possibility to her, namely, that by amalgamating the Ministry of Overseas Development with the Foreign Office the Minister for Overseas Aid, for the first time, will have direct access to the Cabinet and that will be extremely helpful for the aid programme.
Mrs. Hart: I am most grateful to the hon. Member for his sympathetic attitude towards my efforts to find some logic somewhere in this proposal. If that is what he has in mind, he is as wrong as he can be. The independent Minister of Overseas Development had full access to the Cabinet, was called into the Cabinet when he or she was not a full member of it when all discussions on public expenditure were going on, not only for those affecting the Ministry. The Minister was also a full member of the committee which examined questions of overseas policy.
The loss here is precisely the loss of an independent Minister who can talk to colleagues on an equal basis. I am certain that in practice for the next period there will be a way of dealing with these things as between the Foreign Secretary and his Minister. It might even be that the Minister will be asked to attend Cabinet meetings discussing matters in his area. But having had experience as a Minister of State working with a Commonwealth Secretary on issues for which I had some separate responsibility I can say that it is not the same thing.
If a person has to argue his case through the head of a department, if he is not totally free to fight his case when he wants to, inhibited because the head is perhaps a little inhibited, then the strength of the department is infinitely diminished. This is not a logical reason. It could be a reason that has been advanced but it has been advanced because of inexperience on the part of the Government of some of the way in which the Whitehall machine works. Because we can find no logic in the argument we on this side of the House are bound to take the view that this change is inexplicable, that it is arbitrary, that it is shocking, and that there is a shame in so reducing the independence and strength of a
1018
Ministry which was one of those of which, in the whole of Whitehall, we could be proud.
I will take the relationship between the machinery of government and the people in it. The Foreign Secretary and the Minister have both evidenced—through the announcement of the Chancellor about upholding the planned increase in the aid programme—that they are not unsympathetic towards that programme. But the machinery of government should never derive from personalities and the interaction of personalities. The machinery of government must be such that it can withstand whatever personalities come into it. I fear that this machinery would not withstand a different relationship between others occupying particular places. I come to the most important reason why this is a totally foolish and bad decision. Not only will this be seen in the developing world as introducing foreign policy considerations into aid, but it is inevitable that this will become more so.
One chunk of the aid programme goes to our dependent territories. This is quite right, and I hope that between them the Foreign Secretary and the Minister will maintain the increase we had planned for these dependent territories which have nowhere to look but to us for an increase in their standard of living. Much the greatest part of our aid programme goes to countries in the Commonwealth. In the light of the current situation within the Commonwealth, and what I hope and pray will not become the new situation, I ask the House to consider what is likely to be the official attitude to, say, an increase in aid to Tanzania, which in developmental terms justified a considerable amount of aid, and aid to Malawi which in developmental terms has had a great deal of budgetary support and to whom we were looking to find its own feet over the years.
Any Foreign Secretary is bound to have in his mind in such a clear-cut case foreign policy attitudes as well as development criteria. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It may be that in the response of the backbenchers behind the Foreign Secretary we see a real motivation, but there is no shame in the Government and their backbenchers propounding that foreign policy strings should be attached to aid.

1019
In one limited respect, I will give them this degree of support and understanding. Concerned as we are that our aid programme should not merely promote the right kind of development and should not make the rich richer and the poor poorer, but should raise the standard of living of the poorest in the third world, there can be occasions when political judgment needs to be exercised in relation not only to growth criteria but to the policy the country is exercising, so as to spread the benefits of growth evenly. That is a political judgment which I was and always will be totally unashamed to make. But that is very different from the foreign policy attitudes that ignore developmental criteria, and this I fear is what will be the inexorable long-term result of this Measure.
The Labour Government in 1964 set up the Ministry of Overseas Development. It was an independent centre of power within the total governmental machinery. It was an expression of philosophy and a recognition of commitment to development. That is why we set it up and why we feel that the powerful arguments which led us to set it up will always hold good for us in the future. That is why, in considerable anger, we shall go into the Lobby tonight.
11.43 p.m.
Sir Geoffrey de Freitas: I had not intended to speak, but I was horrified to hear the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) advancing the argument that because a Ministry is destroyed and put into the Foreign Office it will somehow have a greater influence on affairs. Discussions about aid occur in the committees of the Cabinet and have nothing to do with the reputation or the standing of the head of the Department. It is important that this should be realised.
I had the great honour, at the invitation of the present Foreign Secretary, to take part in an enormous project of aid to a developing country, I was very proud to do it. I know of no former High Commissioner or Ambassador, most of whom had their first loyalty to the Foreign Office or Commonwealth Office, who supports the abolition of this Ministry and its incorporation in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and
1020
I certainly do not. I much regret the destruction of this important Ministry.
11.45 p.m.
Mr. David Steel: We on these benches will support the Opposition in dividing against this Order tonight. We are distressed that there has been such a long history of devaluation of this Ministry. I remind the House that in 1964 the former Prime Minister made it one of his proudest boasts that the Government had set up a Ministry of Overseas Development with a Minister in the Cabinet. A few reshuffles later it ceased to be a Ministry with a Minister in the Cabinet. The next step was that it ceased to be a Ministry with a Minister and a Parliamentary Secretary and became a Ministry with one Minister. Now, the third in the series of devaluation, the Ministry ceases to be a Ministry at all.
What is important is not whether the right hon. Lady's charges are true or not, though Conservative back benchers appear to think it would be a good thing if overseas aid were entirely determined by foreign policy critera, but what the rest of the world sees in this move. The fact is that a one-time powerful Ministry standing on its own, with a distinguished record, now in the eyes of the world will be seen as one department in the Foreign Office. It is a sorry step, and we shall vote against it.
11.47 p.m.
Mr. Norman St. John-Stevas: I had not intended to speak in this debate, but I have been moved from my original intention by some of the remarks of the right hon. Lady and the speech of the right hon. Member for Kettering (Sir G. de Freitas).
The right hon. Lady the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart) said that the setting up of this Ministry was an expression of Labour Party philosophy. That may be so, but it is a part of a Conservative philosophy that what is more important than a means is an end. Surely what is important in the overseas aid programme is the amount of money that is spent on aid, the determination of government to reach the relevant targets laid down by the Pearson Report, and various reforms which I think she will agree are needed in the administration of

1021
the aid programme, not only in Britain but in other countries as well.
The right hon. Lady prefaced her remarks about the Ministry with certain remarks about aid from private sources as opposed to official sources. It is certainly part of Conservative aid policy for private individuals to shoulder a share of this burden, which is preferable to leaving it all to the Government. I remind her of her own accord in this respect when she made an announcement in the last Parliament about the aims of her Ministry and the attitude of the Ministry to the Pearson Report targets. Was she not relying on private aid to reach those targets?
Mrs. Hart: I am afraid I cannot let that pass. If the hon. Gentleman will read the statement carefully, he will see the reason that I felt it was difficult at that point in advance of the plan to give a precise year on which 1 per cent. would be reached was because of the unpredictability of the private investment sector.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: I have actually read the right hon. Lady's statement three times, the third time only the day before yesterday. It is therefore fresh in my mind. What struck me was how extraordinarily vague it was about reaching the targets. She was criticised from both sides of the House because, if the figures which she gave for official aid were extrapolated into the future, there was no chance of the late Government reaching their target in 1980, let alone 1975. The only hope of the Government fulfilling Labour philosophy would be to rely on private enterprise to come to their aid.
Mrs. Hart: It is rather important that these statements about targets should not go unchallenged. In June, the Labour Government accepted not only the 1 per cent. target for 1975, but also a 0·7 per cent. target for official aid.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: My only reason for intervening briefly is to make it plain to hon. Members and to those outside the House who follow our debates that many in the Conservative Party and in this House are intensely concerned about the future of the aid programme, want to see Britain reach the targets of the Pearson Report, and would certainly not
1022
support this measure of Government reorganisation if they thought that it would be adverse to those objectives.
11.51 p.m.
Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: The speech of the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) indicates that we have fallen victim to the game of targetry in overseas aid. For someone of the hon. Gentleman's standpoint on these matters to think that this is a question of whether the Government's proposals will affect the total aid and that that is the only point of importance is to misunderstand the work that the Ministry of Overseas Development has been doing over the last five years.
In addition to working on the overall budget, it tried to be more discriminating in the use of the money. The allocations and the criteria which determine them are almost as important as the total overall budget. After all, we found that because of erratic movements of private investments in the last year we virtually reached the 1 per cent. total because there was some disinvestment by oil companies in certain parts of the world. But this had nothing to do with real development criteria, and that is the kind of worry which is at the root of the aid lobby's concern about this apparently innocent change of structure.
The structure of government does not matter very much. It is its effect on the policy and the administration of that policy. What worries us is what is to happen now to the policy on overseas aid and its administration. To take a simple case, if foreign policy considerations are not to dominate the allocations of aid, how are they to be decided in disputes between the overseas aid and the foreign policy sections of the Department? How are these issues to get to the level of Cabinet decision in order to determine whether they shall take place? Surely they will be decided at a very low level by meetings between officials and, on the whole, because the Foreign Secretary will be concerned with foreign policy decisions, it is likely that the foreign policy section will prevail.
Take, for example, the size of the budget. In the discussions on public expenditure cuts, it is no secret that in 1968 there was a terrific battle between the Ministry of Overseas Development

1023
and the Treasury. The battle took place interdepartmentally at the level of both officials and Ministers. Who is to represent the overseas aid section of the Foreign Office in this kind of interdepartmental battle with the Treasury? Will there be a structure whereby the overseas aid section will be represented permanently on these committees? This is at the crux of the whole matter. If this structure is developed, it may be that this reactionary move will not be as serious as has been predicted. We can only see from the results which will flow from the decisions that are made. If the Minister can assure us that this kind of structure will be built into the Ministry and, possibly more important, into the relationships between the one Ministry and the other, we can take some recompense, at any rate, for the debate that we have had tonight.
11.55 p.m.
The Minister of Overseas Development (Mr. Richard Wood): The right hon. Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart) has spoken with passion about a subject which has been argued with even greater moderation by the right hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) and other hon. Members opposite earlier today and this evening. They have expressed concern about the bringing of the Ministry of Overseas Development under the general control of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. A number of reasons have been adduced for this concern.
Earlier today, and in this short debate this evening, it has been said that the Ministry of Overseas Development has been a very successful organisation so why break it up. I am gratified, as I am sure my advisers are, by the numerous compliments which have been paid not only in the House this evening but also in the Press and in public discussion in the last few weeks on the administration of the Ministry of Overseas Development over the last five years. But to talk, as did the right hon. Member for Kettering (Sir G. de Freitas), about the destruction of the Ministry is to fly in the face of the White Paper and to disregard entirely the terms in which it is written. This Ministry is not being destroyed. It is being preserved, as is made clear in
1024
paragraph 34 of the White Paper, as a separate part of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
It was suggested that the merging of my Ministry with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is, in some sense, a downgrading of the aid function. Against this we have to weigh the important statement of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister at the General Assembly in New York and the commitment to the 1 per cent. target in 1975. We have to weigh the fact that, in the light of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer's cuts and the increase in public expenditure of 2·7 per cent. in the next four years, the aid programme will increase by 6 per cent. We have also to weigh the general fact that the aid programme, as we promised both in our manifesto and in the Queen's Speech, will be an expanding programme. This, to me, is an adequate answer to the suggestion that the aid function is being downgraded by this change proposed in the White Paper.
It has been suggested that the voice of overseas development will be muted. Here, I should like to put to the House what seems to me an interesting equation. Whatever opinion of his office a Minister in my position may hold, we must admit that the equation, on the one side, is a comparatively weak voice in favour of overseas aid, a voice which is presumably committed to developing the underdeveloped countries. On the other side of the equation is the obviously more powerful voice of the Secretary of State as long as he is committed to the development of the developing countries. As I see it, the job of myself and my successors is to convince my right hon. Friend and his successors, if they need convincing, of the importance of this question. In support of this I can use the right hon. Lady's words, when she said recently:
"He"—
meaning the Foreign Secretary—
"always was and always is an ally on this, and therefore there is no gain".
I do not think that the right hon. Lady can have it both ways. I do not think that she can argue that we are being downgraded and that we are losing when we have a much more powerful voice arguing the aid question. To my mind this is the real gain, that we now have

1025
one of the most senior Members in the Cabinet speaking directly on aid, and if the Minister for Overseas Development of the future cannot convince his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, then I do not think that he will be able to convince the Cabinet.
Mr. Reg Prentice: Under the present arrangements, if he cannot convince the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs he can go to the Cabinet and argue the case himself. Under the new arrangements he will not be able to get past the Secretary of State's desk.
Mr. Wood: That is true, but the point I was making was that if the Minister for Overseas Development cannot convince his right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary he is not likely to convince the Cabinet. That is the reality of the situation.
Hon. Members: Oh!
Mr. Wood: I am sorry, but that is my belief. Hon. Gentlemen opposite may not agree with it, but that is what I feel.
It has been suggested that under the proposed arrangements aid may become too political. I think that the right hon. Member for East Ham, North and the right hon. Lady are forgetting some of the past, are forgetting the realities of this, although the right hon. Gentleman admitted this afternoon that aid was continually discussed with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
The hon. Member for Islington, South-West (Mr. George Cunningham), in what I thought was a most interesting speech, said that the Ministry of Overseas Development had never been fully independent of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I would only add that it has not been, it is not, and it will not be, and I do not believe that it ever should be, because there is bound to be a very close connection between our foreign policy and our development policy.
The hon. Gentleman asked—and I think that the hon. Member for York (Mr. Alexander W. Lyon) echoed this—whether the overseas development administration of the future would continue to be represented on inter-departmental committees. I am glad to be able to say that the answer is "Yes, it will be
1026
represented on these inter-departmental committees".
This is only my guess, and I give it for what it is worth. I believe—and I say this in view of all that has been said about the political considerations that might be attached to this in future—that aid in the future will continue to be based on the criteria on which it has been based in the past; namely, on the criteria of the need for development in the developing countries. That is my guess, and only time will show whether it is justified by the facts.
It is also suggested that this merging of my Department with the Foreign Office will cause suspicion abroad. It may, or it may not. I shall be quite frank with the House. I have had fears expressed to me by representatives from developing countries about this, but it seems to me that the real issue, as my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) said, is whether our performance under this Government with the Ministry of Overseas Development merged with the Foreign Office is going to be better than the performance of the Labour Government with a completely separate Ministry of Overseas Development. I have no hesitation in saying that the answer is "Yes".
The right hon. Gentleman this afternoon—and the right hon. Lady also did—that there would also be suspicion at home, among what he described as the aid lobby. He suggested that a de facto alliance existed between him in his time—and no doubt the right hon. Lady in her time—and the aid lobby. He said that he appreciated the criticism and pressure from the aid lobby to push him on. All I can say is that the future organisation in this respect will increase the alliance between the aid lobby and the overseas aid administration, because it will realise that the Minister for Overseas Development needs pushing very hard if he is going to succeed in convincing his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. Although there may be suspicion I do not believe that it will make the relationship any less close than at present.
Except that it has brought a great many more hon. Members to listen to my speech than I usually am able to enjoy I greatly regret the fact that we shall have a Division on this matter. As I see it, by allying themselves with the pessimists

1027
who think that this will have a bad effect the Opposition are lending their weight to the idea that aid is to be downgraded. I find myself among the optimists. I see, first, that we have an extending programme of aid. I recognise the important commitment of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister; I see that the valuable organisation of the Ministry of Overseas Development is to be preserved as
a separate entity and also that aid and the importance of development in the developing countries will have a more powerful voice in its favour than ever before.
Therefore, I hope that the House will approve the Order.
Question put:—
The House divided: Ayes 165, Noes 128.

Division No. 17.]

AYES

[12.7 a.m

Adley, Robert

Hastings, Stephen

Onslow, Cranley

Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

Havers, Michael

Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

Hawkins, Paul

Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)

Astor, John

Hayhoe, Barney

Page, Graham (Crosby)

Atkins, Humphrey

Hicks, Robert

Percival, Ian

Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

Hiley, Joseph

Pike, Miss Mervyn

Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

Pink, R. Bonner

Benyon, W.

Holt, Miss Mary

Pounder, Rafton

Biffen, John

Hornsby-Smith, Rt. Hn. Dame Patricia

Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)

Howell, David (Guildford)

Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

Boscawen, R. T.

Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

Proudfoot, Wilfred

Bowden, Andrew

Hunt, John

Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

Bray, Ronald

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Raison, Timothy

Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher

Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

Redmond, Robert

Bruce-Gardyne, J.

James, David

Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M)

Jessel, Toby

Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

Chapman, Sydney

Jopling, Michael

Russell, Sir Ronald

Clegg, Walter

Kellett, Mrs. Elaine

St. John-Stevas, Norman

Cockeram, Eric

Kershaw, Anthony

Sharples, Richard

Cooke, Robert

King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

Coombs, Derek

King, Tom (Bridgwater)

Shelton, William (Clapham)

Cooper, A. E.

Kitson, Timothy

Sinclair, Sir George

Cormack, Patrick

Knight, Mrs. Jill

Soref, Harold

Costain, A. P.

Knox, David

Speed, Keith

Critchley, Julian

Lane, David

Spence, John

Curran, Charles

Langford-Holt, Sir John

Stainton, Keith

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

Stanbrook, Ivor

d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Maj.-Gen. Jack

Le Marchant, Spencer

Stewart-Smith, D. G. (Belper)

Dean, Paul

Loveridge, John

Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

Dixon, Piers

MacArthur, Ian

Stokes, John

Dodds-Parker, Douglas

McCrindle, R. A.

Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

Dykes, Hugh

McLaren, Martin

Sutcliffe, John

Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

McNair-Wilson, Michael

Taylor, Robert (Croydon, N. W.)

Fell, Anthony

McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

Tebbit, Norman

Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

Madel, David

Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

Fidler, Michael

Maude, Angus

Tilney, John

Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

Trafford, Dr. Anthony

Fookes, Miss Janet

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Trew, Peter

Fortescue, Tim

Mills, Peter (Torrington)

Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

Foster, Sir John

Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

Waddington, David

Fowler, Norman

Mitchell, Lt.-Col. C. (Aberdeenshire, W)

Walder, David (Clitheroe)

Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

Moate, Roger.

Ward, Dame Irene

Gardner, Edward

Molyneaux, James

Weatherill, Bernard

Gilmour, Sir John (Fife, E.)

Money, Ernle D.

Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

Goodhew, Victor

Monks, Mrs. Connie

Wilkinson, John

Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

Monro, Hector

Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

Gray, Hamish

Montgomery, Fergus

Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

Green, Alan

Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

Woodnutt, Mark

Grieve, Percy

Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

Worsley, Marcus

Grylls, Michael

Mudd, David

Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

Gummer, Selwyn

Murton, Oscar

Younger, Hn. George

Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

Nabarro, Sir Gerald

Hannam, John (Exeter)

Nicholls, Sir Harmar

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

Normanton, Tom

Mr. Reginald Eyre and

Mr. Jasper More.

NOES

Allen, scholefield

Benn, Rt. Hn, Anthony Wedgwood

Campbell, Ian (Dunbartonshire, West)

Armstrong, Ernest

Bidwell, Sydney

Carmichael, Neil

Ashton, Joe

Bishop, E. S.

Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

Atkinson, Norman

Blenkinsop, Arthur

Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

Barnes, Michael

Buchan, Norman

Clark, David (Colne Valley)

Cocks, Michael

Hunter, Adam

Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

Concannon, J. D.

Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

Prescott, John

Conlan, Bernard

John, Brynmor

Probert, Arthur

Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, Central)

Jones, Barry (Flint, East)

Reed, D. (Sedgefield)

Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West)

Rhodes, Geoffrey

Cunningham, G. (Islington, S. W.)

Kaufman, Gerald

Roderick, Caerwyn E.(Br'c'n&R'dnor)

Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

Kerr, Russell

Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

Davidson, Arthur

Latham, Arthur

Roper, John

Davis, Clinton (Hackney, Central)

Lawson, George

Rose, Paul B.

de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

Leadbitter, Ted

Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

Leonard, Dick

Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

Dempsey, James

Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham N.)

Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

Doig, Peter

Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

Sillars, James

Dormand, J. D.

Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

Silverman, Julius

Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

Lyons, Edward (Bradford, East)

Skinner, Dennis

Douglas-Mann, Bruce

McCann, John

Smith, John (Lanarkshire, North)

Dunn, James A.

McCartney, Hugh

Spriggs, Leslie

Dunnett, Jack

McGuire, Michael

Stallard, A. W.

Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

Mackenzie, Gregor

Steel, David

Faulds, Andrew

McNamara, J. Kevin

Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

Stoddart, David (Swindon)

Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

Stonehouse, Rt. Hn, John

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

Strang, Gavin

Forrester, John

Meacher, Michael

Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardift, W.)

Freeson, Reginald

Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

Gilbert, Dr. John

Mendelson, John

Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)

Golding, John

Millan, Bruce

Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

Grant, George (Morpeth)

Milne, Edward (Blyth)

Tinn, James

Grant, John D. (Islington, East)

Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

Torney, Tom

Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

Murray, Hn. Ronald King

Varley, Eric G.

Hardy, Peter

O'Halloran, Michael

Wainwright, Edwin

Harper, Joseph

O'Malley, Brian

Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

Oswald, Thomas

Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

Palmer, Arthur

Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)

Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

Heffer, Eric S.

Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

Pendry, Tom

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Hughes, Dr. Mark (Durham)

Pentland, Norman

Mr. William Hamling and

Hughes, Roy (Newport)

Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)

Mr. Kenneth Marks.

Resolved,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Transfer of Function (Overseas Aid) Order 1970 be made in the form of the draft laid before this House on 27th October.
To be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of Her Majesty's Household.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Secretary of State for the Environment Order 1970 be made in the form of the draft laid before this House on 27th October.—[Mr. Graham Page.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): I understand the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) would like to raise a point on the Motion. His Amendment is out of order.
Mr. Hugh Jenkins: I understand that my Amendment is out of order and I shall not detain the House more than a few minutes—at least, I do not think I shall—in order to explain why I put the Amendment down and why I seek to detain the House.
During the previous debate on the White Paper, various Ministers of the Crown were at pains to assure me that
1030
what I was seeking to do here was unnecessary. They suggested that the White Paper made the Department for the Environment responsible for aircraft noise. My Amendment suggested that it does not, because it seeks to amend the draft Order before us to provide that the Secretary of State for the Environment shall be responsible for
"air, water and noise pollution, including pollution by aircraft noise".
If what the Minister says is correct, and the Secretary of State for the Environment is already responsible, then this Amendment is, of course, unnecessary, but I think it is necessary because I must rely on what the Prime Minister said on the subject last Thursday. I took the precaution of putting down a Question to the Prime Minister on Thursday, to ask him whether he would
"transfer responsibility for the control, limitation and reduction of noise pollution by aircraft to the Secretary of State for the Environment".
The answer I received was,
"No".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29th October; 1970; Vol. 805, c. 199.]
I must take the Prime Minister as the responsible authority, and when he says

1031
"No", I take it that the Secretary of State is not responsible and that the assurances that he is responsible are not correct. I take it that the Order clearly excludes from the Department for the Environment responsibility for noise. The Prime Minister says it excludes that.
Is there any hon. Member opposite, any Conservative Member who will join me in dividing the House on whether this Order goes through? If any Conservative Member will do that, I will divide the House with him. If an hon. Member opposite will interrupt me in order to offer to join me in dividing the House on this issue, I will at once give way to him. Is there any hon. Member opposite who has a constituency interest in aircraft noise, who knows, as I do, that something is being done here to the disadvantage of constituents, ready to do that? Apparently not one Conservative Member is ready to join me.
I will divide the House on another occasion, but not tonight. I understand that it is possible for me to pray against the Order, so in order to terminate this present proceeding I give notice that I will at a future date seek to pray against the Order, and I will invite any Conservative Member who knows, as I do, that the responsibilities for the control of aircraft noise should be transferred to the Department for the Environment, to join me at that time.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Secretary of State for the Environment Order 1970 be made in the form of the draft laid before this House on 27th October.
To be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of Her Majesty's Household.

COMPTROLLER AND AUDITOR GENERAL (SALARY)
Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the yearly rate of salary which may be granted to the Comptroller and Auditor General under section 1 of the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act 1957 be increased from £9,800 to £11,900 for periods before 1st January 1971 and to £14,000 for later periods, and the date from which, under subsection (3) of that section, the person now holding that office is entitled to a salary at an increased rate by virtue of this Resolution be 1st July 1970.—[Mr. David Howell.]
12.22 a.m.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: I had hoped that we should have had some explanation from the Minister why this Motion has been tabled, but I do not want the matter to go through on the nod.
Hon. Members opposite seem very anxious, as do the Government, always to give large salary increases to those already in receipt of large salaries. We now have this Motion, and a Motion relating to the Parliamentary Commissioner, coming forward late at night when the Press and the public are not here, and when the Government hope that not too much notice will be taken. This is nothing short of scandalous. I am not in any way speaking against the two gentlemen concerned—there is nothing personal in what I say.
A few days ago the Government announced to the House that they intended to increase taxation on the chronic sick, the disabled and the poorer section of the population and to abolish welfare for children and the lower-paid section. They have said consistently that they will not give a few shillings extra each week to the dustmen, and the lower-paid workers. Yet they seem to expect the House to accept on the nod Motions which increase the salaries of the two gentlemen concerned from £9,800 to £11,900, with backdating from July last.
That is not good enough. In addition, that £11,900 is to be increased to £14,000 as from 1st January. No reason has been given why these two gentlemen can have in total a £3,200-a-year increase next January, and yet when it comes to the lower-paid workers we are told, "An

1033
increase of 55s. is much too much; it would be inflationary". I cannot understand this argument.
The Government were elected to cut expenditure and yet within a few days of starting to cut down on the poorest sections of the population they suggested these fantastic increases. It do not know which trade union is concerned in this case. It must be a very good trade union; I should like to become a member of it. Perhaps the Minister will tell me which trade union negotiations went on, which trade union negotiated and whether the claim was put before the Prices and Incomes Board before it was wound up.
I cannot agree to this increase. I am not personalising, because people in the higher income groups can, without any question, get increases. I am not being political, because I have attacked other Governments in the past on the same grounds. But when the last Government increased the tax-free allowance of the peers of the Realm, to which I objected, they did not at the same time cut the social welfare benefits of the poorer sections. I cannot fathom why a person on £9,800 a year is entitled to receive not only an increase but a retrospective increase and an anticipatory increase.
We are all fed up with the dustmen's strike. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear".] We would like to see them back at work. Here is a way to end the strike: offer to the dustmen an immediate increase retrospective to last July and promise them another increase on 1st January, 1971—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): Order. We are not discussing the dustmen. The hon. Gentleman must keep to the terms of the Motion.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: But we are discussing these Orders, and I am entitled to ask why preferential treatment is given to higher-paid workers—in this case two individuals—because this applies to the chairmen and members of the nationalised boards. It even applies to a Labour peer appointed as chairman of the "think tank", as the Press describes it. Why is there no question of holding up or discussing an increase for these higher-paid people, of referring it to anyone, or suggesting that they should wait because the increase could be in-
1034
flationary? Yet we are asked to get the workers to limit their wage demands. Do the Government think that when some people are to get £3,000 to £4,000 extra on £10,000 it can go through on the nod, with no explanation?
It could go through without any question from hon. Members opposite. But the miners digging coal are considered the most wicked people out when they try to get £5 extra. Of course, the two gentlemen concerned do not even have to trouble to go to their unions. I may be wrong. Perhaps they have threatened to strike if they did not get the increase. That may be a good reason why the Government would give the extra. But we might be able to put up with them being on strike much more conveniently than we are now putting up with the dustmen being on strike.
I am entitled to draw a comparison between this and the vicious treatment the Government mete out to the poorer sections of the population, to the chronic sick, the disabled, and those with incomes of only a few pounds a week. They are having their rents and rates put up, as well as their food prices and almost everything one can mention.
If the increase is being given because the real value of these gentlemen's salaries has fallen owing to the rise in the cost of living, that might be a good reason. But if that is so, the same can be said for a number of other sections of the population. I see the Leader of the House nodding.
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw): Not at all.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: One of my hon. Friends is very unkind, and suggests that the right hon. Gentleman is nodding to sleep. I would not suggest that.
If the increases are being given because prices have gone up, why have not the salaries of Members of Parliament been put up? The top civil servants, the judges, and everyone we can think of, have had various increases since 1964, and M.P.s have not. I am not suggesting that we should get them. But I should like to know why the Government are adamant in refusing even to have the matter investigated. They are very anxious to bring these Orders forward

1035
very late at night in the hope that no one will oppose the Motions and that they will go through on the nod.
My hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) challenged hon. Members opposite to go into the Division Lobby on the previous Motion. I now challenge hon. Members on this side, even on my own Front Bench, to tell against this Motion. If they will, I am quite willing to divide the House on it. I am doing this to help the Government. [Laughter.] I do so because the Government want people to restrain themselves from asking for too much in the way of increased salaries.
The Government are suggesting that 55s. a week is too much to demand. I cannot make that out. If 55s. is too much, surely a £5,000-a-year increase—about £100 a week—is also too much. If to use the poor old dustmen as an illustration is too delicate to mention, then I can mention other sections of the community. Many wage applications are in the pipeline. Recently, the Prime Minister said that about 8 per cent. was a reasonable percentage. The rise proposed in these Motions is much more than that. What is to be the reasonable percentage now? I suggest that Mr. Feather and the T.U.C. might now advise the trade unions to go for increases comparable to that suggested in these Motions. They could call in aid the fact that this increase is regarded as reasonable by the Government.
I have in my constituency a number of dock workers. They are a much maligned body of hard-working men. When they ask for an increase they are told it is exorbitant. In their case, £30 a week is reckoned to be too much but these two gentlemen are to be given an increase from £9,800 to £14,000, and we are told that that is nothing to which we should take exception. That might be the attitude of hon. Members opposite but it is not mine. Such a jump is too much and is something we should oppose.
Is this proposal to pay large salary increases retrospectively and cushioning large salary increases in advance the criterion to be followed in other instances? One can visualise in the next few months, if that is so, the chairmen of the boards of nationalised industries,
1036
and, no doubt, their members, asking to be treated the same way. Who knows but that our friends the High Court judges will want to be treated the same way. Indeed, workers in industry might ask to be treated in the same way. If they do, I want to be assured that the Government will not then say that workers cannot ask for increases in retrospect and in advance. If they give that assurance, I shall be happy to let these Motions go through.
I have put a number of Motions on the Notice Paper. I will not go through them all because that might take too long, but there are eight or nine of them. I have tried to show in them how the Government are not carrying out the maxim which has been accepted in this country for generations—that justice must not only be done but must be seen to be done. I quote in those Motions how the number of better-paid—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is entitled to develop arguments only on the Motions before the House. I hope that he will not go into detail on the other Motions which he has mentioned.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: I did not intend to go into details about the other Motions. I was trying to give reasons why we should not agree to these Motions. I wanted to show what other people were getting, for I do not want it to be thought that I am singling out the Parliamentary Commissioner, the Ombudsman, and the Comptroller and Auditor General. I am opposed to the principle of paying these large increases.
If the Government are genuinely concerned to cut down expenses, why do they not cut the subsidies which are paid to Ministers who occupy Ministerial houses? The money saved in that way could be used to pay these higher salaries. It is not right for money saved at the expense of the chronic sick, the disabled and the school meals and school milk of school children, the poorer sections of the population, to be used for paying these increases and, clearly, part of that money will go to pay for these increases. One way in which to save money would be to charge Ministers a notional rent for their residences and the resulting large saving could be used to pay these salaries.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member is trespassing too much on the patience of the House by his analogies. I think that he will agree with me that he has made his point. If I sense the attitude of the House correctly, it is that hon. Members are anxious to reach a decision. I think that the hon. Member would wish to accept what seems to be the general view of the House. But, of course, he is at liberty to go on if he wishes.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: Those last words were appropriate, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There is nothing to stop any hon. Member from leaving if he wishes to do so and there is nothing to stop any hon. Member from not listening to me if he thinks that what I am saying is not palatable and if I remind him too much that this was not in the election addresses or in the manifesto of Conservative Members. When the Chancellor makes cuts in Government expenditure, he does not announce at the time that within a week he will be introducing proposals like this for increases in salary. I am asking for fair play among all sections of the population. I do not think that it is fair when, within a week of cuts which affect the poorer section of the population, vast increases are given to a small number of people.
12.43 a.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Civil Service Department (Mr. David Howell): I appreciate the interest of the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) in this matter and his concern with wider economic issues which he has aired at some length. However, the issue before us is simple and narrow. It is simply whether the House wishes the servants mentioned in the Motions, the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Parliamentary Commissioner, whose services are very valuable, to be paid at the same level as other senior civil servants, as has always been the practice.
The previous Government agreed to the increases, which are the second and third stages of increases agreed by the Plowden Committee on Higher Civil Service Pay. This is accepted practice. The single issue before us tonight is not the wider issues which the hon. Member has introduced—and I appreciate his interest in them—but whether the salaries of these two officials should be brought into line
1038
with those of other civil servants, as they always have been. They do good service for the House and we ought to pay tribute to their work.
I commend the two Motions to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the yearly rate of salary which may be granted to the Comptroller and Auditor General under section 1 of the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act 1957 be increased from £9,800 to £11,900 for periods before 1st January 1971 and to £14,000 for later periods, and the date from which, under subsection (3) of that section, the person now holding that office is entitled to a salary at an increased rate by virtue of this Resolution be 1st July 1970.

PARLIAMENTARY COMMISSIONER (SALARY)
[Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
Resolved,
That the yearly rate of the salary payable to the Parliamentary Commissioner under section 2 of the Parliamentary Commissioner Act 1967 be increased from £9,800 to £11,900 for periods before 1st January 1971 and to;£14,000 for later periods, and the date from which this Resolution is to take effect be 1st July 1970.—[Mr. David Howell.]

MEMBERS (CAR ALLOWANCES)
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That, in the opinion of this House, the limit on the allowances which under the Resolution of this House of 18th December 1969 are now payable to Members of this House for travel by road on certain journeys shall, for journeys commenced after the date of this Resolution, be replaced by a limit in respect of the use of a car of 1s. a mile.—[M r. Whitelaw.]
12.45 a.m.
Sir Gerald Nabarro: I rise for a moment to express my gratitude on behalf of all Members in all parts of the House to the Leader of the House and those associated with him for the alacrity which he has displayed in dealing with this difficult and delicate matter of Members' motor-car allowances. The history of it is that there were no allowances for Members using their cars, on public duties in their constituencies, between their constituencies and Westminster, between their homes and Westminster and their homes and their constituency prior to 1963, when

1039
an allowance of 4½d. per mile was granted in lieu of a first-class rail fare, which it had always been the right of hon. Members to claim if they so desired. It remained at 4½d. per mile from 1963 to 1969 when the allowance was increased to 6d. per mile. The date on which that became operative was December, 1969.
That allowance was rather inadequate compared with the allowance of a county councillor, for example, undertaking similar duties and using his own car, for whom the allowance, according to horsepower or cubic capacity was generally in excess of 1s. a mile. I feel that the allowance now given at the rate of 1s. per mile is a recognition of the reality of contemporary circumstances and the fact that it should be given within a few weeks of the accession to Parliamentary majority of the present Conservative Government is a tribute to the foresight of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House and I want to express my deep sense of gratitude to him for what he has done.
12.47 a.m.
Mr. David Steel: I should like to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South and to pay tribute to him for his persistence in this matter on behalf of Members in all parts of the House.
I should also like to ask the Leader of the House what is his view on the whole question of parliamentary expenses, which is the heading of this Resolution. It seems to me—and a number of new Members who might feel bashful about talking on this subject so soon have expressed this view to me—that it is unsatisfactory that we should go on from year to year fiddling about with our own expenses and should have a static salary which only we can alter. It is invidious and very unfair on the Government at any given time. I appreciate the difficulties for a new Government. It is never the right time to deal with this sort of thing. It is either just before the election or just after it—and it is inconvenient for a Government.
I ask the Leader of the House to tell us what are his thoughts on the subject of Members' pay and conditions and whether there is any hope that we shall
1040
refer the matter to some outside body, such as the new Commission on Manpower.
12.49 a.m.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: I should like to be associated with the remarks of the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel) in paying tribute to the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro). As Chairman of the House of Commons Motor Club, he was most persistent in pushing this matter. I declare an interest here because I am one of the two joint honorary secretaries. I should like, too, to pay tribute to the Leader of the House and the Government for, in this instance, facing up to the realities of the situation. Does the hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Kitson) wish to intervene? I am willing to give way, because as he is the Prime Minister's Parliamentary Private Secretary he may have something to tell us from the Prime Minister.
I pay tribute to the Government and the Leader of the House. The Labour Government did nothing about this. I am not here to criticise a Tory Government because it is a Tory Government. I criticise any Government when it is wrong. Hence I criticise the previous Government. The former Chancellor of the Exchequer was most unparliamentary in his behaviour. He refused to meet a deputation of Members of Parliament to discuss the issue. This is not the usual practice of members of any Government. The former Chancellor of the Exchequer is not here; I wish he were. My right hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) is shaking his head, but I do not say one thing in the House and another thing outside. I say what I have to say both inside and outside the House. It was wrong for the former Chancellor of the Exchequer to refuse to meet a deputation of Members of Parliament on this issue.
Will the Leader of the House confirm that Members of Parliament will be treated in the same way as persons in private industry, local government, the Civil Service and the nationalised industries? A Member of Parliament who buys a car out of his private income and uses it on his job as an M.P. is reimbursed in part for the cost of the petrol

1041
he uses on that job. The trade unions have agreements with the employers that if a worker goes away on a job the employer pays the fare, provides a conveyance or meets the cost involved in that person using his private conveyance. If an M.P. uses his car to come to the House of Commons or between his constituency and his home he will have to pay tax on this money, but he will not have to do so if he uses his car between the House and his constituency. I cannot fathom why this should be.
Ministers and, to be fair, the Leader of the Opposition are provided with State cars which they can use to and from their offices. They do not have to pay for such cars or for their upkeep. They can use a car to and from the House of Commons, and I think I am right in saying that they do not pay tax on it. I do not understand the difference in treatment. If Members of Parliament are taxed on this amount—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): The hon. Gentleman is pursuing his argument on too large a scale. This is a very narrow Motion that seeks to raise the amount from what it is at present to a shilling. Too much argument on matters of tax, and so forth, cannot be considered to be in order.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: I am speaking, Mr. Deputy Speaker, on the Motion that the allowance is to go up to a shilling, and I want to know whether the past practice will continue, and I am assuming that the money will be taxable. I am not objecting to it, but I am asking for explanations why it is taxable for some Members of Parliament and not others. The acting Leader of the Opposition, my right hon. Friend the Member for Workington, may know the answer. I do not know and I want to know. I hope that we shall have from the Leader of the House some explanation why there is a difference of treatment between one section of the population and another. The acting Leader of the Opposition may not like it, but I have often had to listen to him. If he feels there is something I have said that is wrong, I will give way. But the fact that he does not like what I am saying is nothing new. I am quite used to having the Front Benches
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on both sides of the House objecting to what I say. I know that what happens—and I have seen it for 25 years—is that Members are cushioning themselves for when they go in and out. I want answers to legitimate questions about the mileage allowance to Members.
Mr. Fred Peart: My hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) was wanting a fight when he should know that there is no fight at all. If he wishes to have a fight with anybody—
Mr. Arthur Lewis Mr. Arthur Lewis rose—
Mr. Peart: My hon. Friend has had his say. I do not need a lecture from him. When I was Leader of the House I always treated him decently and I hope that he will treat me the same way. I sometimes resent people why try to make personal attacks on individuals, indeed on past Chancellors of the Exchequer, on the question of meeting deputations. This is irrelevant tonight.
I congratulate the Leader of the House for what he has done. The Motion is sensible. I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) for his pioneering work on this matter. Indeed, he met me on many occasions, and I am only sorry that I was not able to concede his request entirely. But he has achieved so much and the House recognises that he has been a great fighter on this issue. He will be pleased that the Leader of the House has now conceded his case.
The hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel) has argued the wider issue. I agree with him. I have no doubt that in the end inevitably we shall have to come to a great argument about Members' salaries. We are still the most under-paid and overworked representatives, when compared with other Legislatures. I think that we have to take note of the hon. Gentleman's point. Probably one day we shall deal with it. But many of us on both sides of the House have tried in our own ways to do certain things and, in my period as Leader of the House, despite what my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North said, I did a great deal.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Peart: Yes, but I hope that my hon. Friend will not be childish this time.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: I do not think that I was childish before. I have never said a word against my right hon. Friend's work in this connection, and I pay tribute to him, because I know that he did a good job and met deputations. He did all that he could to help. The Chairman of the Motoring Club can confirm that my right hon. Friend tried always to get this proposal through when he was in office.
Mr. Peart: I have said that I approve of this Motion. One day we shall look at the wider question. In the meantime, I hope at this late hour that we shall approve of this Motion without further ado.
1.1 a.m.
Mr. Michael McGuire: I want to add my congratulations to those which have been expressed to the Leader of the House. However, I hope that he will answer the question raised by the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel) on the very vexing subject of Members' salaries. I know that we are not discussing the point, but I think that it is inconsistent to deal with Members' allowances in this way when the Government have made provision for reviewing the salaries of people who—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman will be out of order if he develops that argument. He must keep to the terms of the Motion.
Mr. McGuire: I will not pursue it in that way, but I ask the Leader of the House to bear in mind that Members' expenses and salaries are inextricably linked. I have great personal admiration for the right hon. Gentleman, and I ask him not to dodge the issue merely because we all lack the courage to do what we know has to be done, which is to pay realistic salaries to Members of Parliament. It is time that the subject ceased to be a political football and came to be discussed on the Floor of the House. If necessary, an independent body could be set up to take the onus off the Government of the day.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I think that that is quite far enough about independent bodies. Mr. Whitelaw.
1.3 a.m.
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. William Whitelaw): I thank the right hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) and other hon. Members who have been kind enough to make complimentary remarks about this Motion. In the last Parliament, I listened to many representations which were made to the Services Committee on the subject of the Members' mileage allowance, and I became convinced that it was sensible for Members to be given the same sort of allowance as that given to members of local authorities. That is what this Motion does. I am glad that we have been able to make this arrangement and that it is welcomed in the House.
It is perhaps reasonable to say that on this occasion I am following in the tradition of what the right hon. Member for Workington did when he was Leader of the House concerning various other allowances and expenses. I thought that he did much in this respect. I admired what he did and thought that I might be able to make some further advance in this sphere. That I have done, and I am glad that it is welcome to the House.
It would be unwise for me to take any further steps at the moment. It is best always to take the maxim: one step at a time is enough for me. Therefore, I prefer not to say anything about the other representations made to me. However, I have noted them and I appreciate hon. Members feelings about them.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That, in the opinion of this House, the limit on the allowances which under the Resolution of this House of 18th December 1969 are now payable to Members of this House for travel by road on certain journeys shall, for journeys commenced after the date of this Resolution, be replaced by a limit in respect of the use of a car of 1s. a mile.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That—
(1) Standing Order No. 5 (Precedence of government business) shall have effect for this Session with the following modifications, namely:—
In paragraph (2) the word 'twelve' shall be substituted for the word 'ten' in

1045
line 6; and in paragraph (5) the word 'eight' shall be substituted for the word 'ten' in line 30.
(2) Public Bills other than Government Bills shall have precedence over Government Business on 4th and 11th December, 22nd and 29th January, 5th and 12th February, 19th and 26th March, 2nd, 23rd and 30th April and 7th May.
(3) Private Members' Notices of Motions and Private Members' Bills shall have precedence in that order over Government Business on 27th November, 19th and 26th February, 5th and 12th March, 14th and 21st May and 18th June, and ballots for these Notices shall be held after Questions on 11th November, 3rd, 10th, 17th and 24th February, 28th April, 5th and 19th May.
(4) On Monday 30th November, Monday 8th February, Monday 10th May and Monday 12th July Private Members' Notices of Motions shall have precedence until Seven o'clock and ballots for these Notices shall be held after Questions on Thursday 12th November, Thursday 21st January, Thursday 22nd April and Thursday 24th June, respectively.
(5) No Notice of Motion shall be handed in for any of the days on which Private Members' Notices have precedence under this Order in anticipation of the Ballot for that day.—[Mr. Whitelaw.]

BREWERY, SAMLESBURY (PLANNING PERMISSION)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Fortescue.]
1.6 a.m.
Mr. Edward Gardner: I am grateful for the opportunity, even at this late hour, of being able to raise for the consideration of this House a decision by the Government to allow the building, on the countryside at Samlesbury in my constituency, of what is likely to be the biggest brewery in the world. This is a decision with which I disagree, with which many hon. Members disagree, and with which many people outside disagree. The decision was made after a full public inquiry and after the inspector who conducted that inquiry had recommended that planning permission for the building of the brewery should be refused.
The grounds upon which the inspector recommended that planning permission should be refused were that, if this brewery were built, it would, to use his words, be a gross intrusion of industrial development in pleasant countryside;
1046
that it would be out of balance with a proposed new town; and that, in addition, it was his view—I submit a very significant and important view—that there was available for the building of this brewery an alternative site—
Mr. Michael McGuire: In Skelmersdale, for one.
Mr. Gardner: In Skelmersdale, for one, and in Walton-le-Dale, for another.
I am not seeking to say that the Minister should not have a statutory right to override the decision of his inspector. I am saying that in this case the reasons for overriding the inspector's recommendations were not good reasons. I say that unless there are, in effect, overwhelming reasons to justify the decision of a Minister to override the inspector's recommendation, that recommendation should not be overridden.
In this case the reasons why the inspector's recommendation was overridden were not overwhelming. They were not even good reasons. In fact, I would say that they were bad reasons. One of the reasons—and it appears in the decision letter—and the first reason that the Minister raised as being a good ground for overriding the inspector's recommendation was that there were difficulties in finding an alternative site. I cannot agree with that, because there is one site to which the inspector referred—and there are others as well—and that is at Walton-le-Dale.
This brewery must have a site which has five physical characteristics. The alternative site at Walton-le-Dale has four, the missing one being the provision of sewerage facilities. These facilities—and I beg my hon. Friend to bear this in mind and to consider it—could be provided, and it would be a good commercial proposition for the brewery to provide them. It would involve the laying of a pipe about 10 miles long, and something similar has been done on another occasion.
It is said by the Minister that by building a brewery on this site employment will come to this area of Lancashire, but the brewery will employ only about 600 people, and before it is completed, or at about the same time as it is completed, if it is built, 1,800 employees at three other breweries will presumably

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lose their jobs, and the 600 people required for the new brewery can be expected to be recruited from those 1,800 employees.
The other reason why the Minister saw fit to override his inspector's recommendation was that this area of land is not green belt. I concede that that is right, but it is a very pleasant, tranquil rural area where people can live at peace and where they can escape from the strains of the industrial towns nearby. One cannot miss the land as one goes through the area. It is raised to a height of nearly 200 feet above the surrounding landscape, and it dominates the gateway to the Ribble Valley, one of the loveliest places in Lancashire.
The best news that I have had about the proposal to build the brewery there—it has come since I raised the matter at the Conservative Party conference at Blackpool—is that the brewers now say that if they continue with the building of this brewery the height of the chimney will be reduced from 120 feet to 70 feet, providing that the smell is not too bad. If it is, the height of the chimney will have to be increased to 80 feet.
The reason for the Minister's decision has a background which I think is disconcerting. The previous Government decided—and it was a disastrous decision—that this area of land should be designated as an intermediate development area. The logic of that was that when the brewers applied for an industrial development certificate they were granted it.
Then the Lancashire County Council, in the face of extremely strong local opposition from councils and local representatives of the Council for the Preservation of Rural England, decided to support the proposal to build a brewery. It is as a result of the support given by the Lancashire County Council that I understand that the Minister has decided in turn to support the proposal.
The consequences of building a brewery in this area are not only serious; they will be expensive and permanent. The first of those consequences will be that heavy traffic will flow past the brewery, along what are now quite inadequate country lanes, flooding into main roads already saturated by traffic at peak hours.
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I cannot begin to guess—perhaps the Minister can help—what will be the cost of providing adequate roads in order to relieve the congestion that will undoubtedly build up if the brewery is developed.
The other consequence is obvious. We shall have a brewery on this elevated plateau, covering 55 acres. It will be there for everyone to see, unless there is some very skilful landscaping to conceal it. How it is possible to hide a building of these dimensions at that height, with the towers rising above the complex of industrial building, I do not know. The cost of this landscaping—and I hope that landscaping will be imposed as a condition—will be astronomical. I should like to know who will pay for it. Will it come out of a Government grant, or will the Government pay part of it, in order to conceal what I submit in all earnestness ought not to be there?
This is the place to make a protest. This is the place to ventilate the fears and the disquiet of people who live in this area and whose lives will be affected if the brewery is built. The question is: how does one make an effective protest? If a Member of this House were to get up and protest about this brewery at the time when the Minister's inspector was conducting the inquiry that protest would be sub judice. Similarly, after the inspector has recommended to his Minister a particular course of action or decision, I see it as improper for a Member of the House to try to debate with the Minister the arguments that can be relied upon for or against a particular decision. Only after the Minister has fulfilled his quasi-judicial function is one entitled to say to him, "This, in the view of people living in the area, is right", or wrong, as the case may be.
One hears—I hope wrongly—that this protest is too late, and that what I am now saying on behalf of the people living in Samlesbury and on behalf of all those people who are upset by this decision, is being said without any hope of effective action following upon this protest. If that be the case then we have to be concerned about these planning procedures. If that be the case, the law stands in need not only of review but of reform.

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This situation in Samlesbury is analogous to the situation, though on a smaller scale, over Stansted. I ask my hon. Friend to consider even at this late stage looking again at this decision. There is a chorus of disapproval and a sincere and profound belief that this is a mistaken decision which should be put right. That is what I plead with my hon. Friend to start to do tonight.
1.20 a.m.
Mr. Arthur Davidson: I should like to compliment the hon. and learned Member for South Fylde (Mr. Gardner) on the fight he has put up on behalf of his constituents and Lancashire people in general against this deplorable decision. Many of those who work in my constituency live in Samlesbury. I have not come across one who has not been passionately and violently opposed to this decision. The opposition comes not from a single political party but from people of all political views. I have tried to find one factor in this decision which could help North-East Lancashire. The sad truth is that not one extra job will be created there as a result.
The Secretary of State had a golden opportunity here, which seldom comes to anyone, to show that he was serious when he talked about conservation. I believe that he means what he says and I hope that he will show it, even at this late stage, by reversing this regrettable decision.
1.22 a.m.
The Minister for Local Government and Development (Mr. Graham Page): I want first to make a general statement by quoting from a speech by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the Countryside in 1970 Conference on 28th October:
"The protection of our countryside and the prevention of pollution are among the highest priorities of the 1970s and are essential for any decent sort of living. It is in that spirit that the Government will tackle the problems."
He said earlier:
"The protection of our countryside, the avoidance of pollution and the striking of a right balance between the needs of conservation and development are now among the most important and difficult tasks of the Government."
Secondly, I want to assure the House that the Government propose to put before the country a firm green belt
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policy. We propose to state clearly and in some detail the areas of green belt into which we shall not permit encroachment. For too many years, the proposals for green belts have lain in the Ministry unconfirmed. A very small minority have been granted the force of law by the Minister's approval. We propose to make certain where boundaries may be drawn and to announce those boundaries and to help to give form to them. This is something quite new in planning policy.
This case, raised on the Adjournment by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Fylde (Mr. Gardner) has been falsely represented as a green belt case. The Municipal Journal, in referring to it, said:
"Reports in the national press … have readily accepted the argument—used by the Council for the Protection of Rural England, which ought to know better—that this is sordid commercial intrusion into green-belt land and the Minister's decision has been interpreted as an ill omen on green belt policy under the new Minister. On both counts the criticism has been unfair for 'white land' is in no sense 'green belt' and the support for the decision has been much stronger than a lone Minister's decision."
Mr. Gardner: I was careful to state that this was not green belt land and the basis of my argument took into account that it was not.
Mr. Page: My hon. and learned Friend would not put forward this misrepresentation on which the case has been based in the Press against the Secretary of State, but it has been falsely represented by those who have used the phrase "encroachment into green belt", knowing well what an emotive phrase that is and intending it to be so. Not satisfied with that, they have linked themselves with statements in Private Eye accusing the Secretary of State of deciding this appeal on the basis of contributions made to the Conservative Party and even of putting money into his own pocket by this appeal.
This is a shocking case of scurrilous statements against a Minister trying to carry out his duties honourably and honestly. Not satisfied with that, accusations have been made against officials of my Department that they leaked to the Press the decision in this case before it was known publicly and that they leaked it to the developers and builders. Even this week, this scurrilous attack has been

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repeated on the Secretary of State and the Department. It has been pressed by the Vicar of Samlesbury in a letter to hon. Members.
May I inform the House that this is a village which has little wish to show its beauty of environment to members of the public, for it erects notices prohibiting the passage of anyone through the village unless they are residents.
The vicar said in that letter:
"We believe that the Minister's responsibility is to the nation rather than the brewery …. We can only presume that other pressures have influenced the Minister and those in authority".
What does he mean by that and what does he expect Ministers and hon. Members of the House to mean by it? The vicarage was sold by private treaty to the brewery. This is a foul campaign against Ministers and officials trying to exercise the difficult duties which Parliament puts on them in carrying out planning law.
This area of 55 acres is at the Preston end of a six-mile strip of countryside between Preston and Blackburn, with beautiful countryside on either side in the valleys of the Ribble and Darwen with, to the north, the beautiful Forest of Bowland, covering hundreds of acres. But the site itself is an ordinary field to which the public, as far as I know, have had no access in the past, a field looking out across the M.6 to the built-up area of Preston and the immense chimneys of Courtauld's factory, and next door to the extensive area of the Blackburn sewerage works, a few hundred yards from an ugly paper mill and cut off completely from Samlesbury village by the A.59 road on which there is, very near, a garish modern pub.
This is a site within a couple of miles of massive aircraft hangars used for industrial purposes. By no stretch of imagination could this be called an area of outstanding natural beauty. I congratulate the campaigners on having worked up the case into a national issue, with the assistance of the scurrilous attack from Private Eye.
The site is in an area which the previous Minister's inspector said should be included with the central Lancashire new town. It is in an intermediate area
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created by the last Government, and that means an area which requires employment. It is a site for which an I.D.C. was granted by the previous Government, quite rightly, because it would bring 600 jobs into the intermediate area—and new jobs. These workers would not be recruited from the employees of the Salford and Liverpool breweries, which would be closed down as breweries as a result. Those people would not come from Salford or Liverpool to work in an area between Preston and Blackburn.
Although the site cannot be seen from Samlesbury village, it is true that it can be seen as one looks over the valley of the M.6 from the built-up suburbs of Preston. For this very reason, very strict landscaping conditions have been placed on the outline permission which has been granted. The inquiry and the Minister's decision related to outline planning permission only. Since then, the developers have accepted every single condition which they were asked to accept for landscaping by the Preston Rural District Council and by the Lancashire County Council; and they have now been granted detailed planning permission by the Lancashire County Council, as advised by the Preston Rural District Council.
Let me remind the House that some of the loudest and most unjustifiable and illogical abuse of my right hon. Friend the Minister has been that he has acted undemocratically by refusing to accept the recommendations of the appointed inspector. Undemocratically—when he, an elected Member of this House, has put his own conviction alongside that of the democratically elected local planning authority and the Lancashire County Council? How silly can argument get in support of a weak case?
Is there any strength in the argument that my right hon. Friend ought not to have rejected the inspector's recommendation? Inspectors are not judges of the High Court. The country is governed by Ministers, not by inspectors, and approximately two decisions of inspectors are rejected every week—and quite properly. If this were not so, Salmesbury itself would be within the designated new town.
Part of the campaign by the C.P.R.E. and others is that this site should have been at Skelmersdale or at Walton-le-Dale. Of course there would have been

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objections from the residents of either place if the decision had been to put it there. At Skelmersdale, instability due to mining subsidence made it quite impossible to put a brewery of this sort in this town—
Mr. McGuire: I thank the Minister for giving me some of his valuable time. Is he aware that my information is—and I am the Member for Ince, which includes Skelmersdale—that the negotiations to have the brewery at Skelmersdale were almost signed, sealed and delivered?
Mr. Page: I agree. It was found that the instability of the ground would not hold the sort of building which the brewery wished to put there.
As to the Walton-le-Dale site—this is an old trick which those of us who have been at inquiries for many years know very well. One produces a site at the last moment at the inquiry so that no one knows where it is. This site was not even identified to the inquiry. As far as one could tell, it was a site from which it would be necessary to traverse many miles of narrow lanes across a level crossing to get to the M6, and would require a 10-mile sewer pipe across the beautiful Ribble Valley.
Here are some positive benefits from this decision. In employment, it would provide 600 new jobs in an intermediate area; the people would not be recruited from those leaving the breweries in
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Salford and Liverpool. In improvement of the urban environment, it would mean closing two breweries as breweries in the centre of Salford and the centre of Liverpool, turning them into packing and distribution centres for the brewery, giving better working conditions to those who have to work in those buildings. In the prevention of pollution it would mean less pollution into the Irwell from Salford and into the Mersey from Liverpool, two of the most polluted rivers in the country, because at Salmesbury it would go into the sewage treatment plant next door to the brewery and would not pollute any rivers.
The area is a short distance from the M6. Traffic congestion from the brewery lorries within Salford and Liverpool would be relieved. The entrance to the brewery is only a few yards from the main road, the A59.
I assure the House that the Government's policy is conservation of the beauties of the countryside, but also of improving the environment of the town—
The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock on Tuesday evening and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at twenty-four minutes to Two o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Norwich.

LORD DIAMOND
The Right Honourable John Diamond, having been created Baron Diamond, of the City of Gloucester, for life—Was, in his robes, introduced between the Lord Shackleton and the Lord Gardiner.
The Lord Strathalmond—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
Several Lords—Took the Oath.

GREEK INDEPENDENCE ANNIVERSARY FESTIVAL
2.48 p.m.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government in view of the involvement of Lord Byron and the assistance of other British philhellenes in the Greek War of Independence against the Turks, whether they will encourage British participation in the 1971 Athens Festival and other cultural activities in Greece on the occasion of the 150th anniversary of that Independence.]
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are aware that many people will wish that the British association with this event should be marked in an appropriate manner. Various possibilities are being considered, but I am not in a position to say anything more definite at the present moment.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that very limited reply, may I ask whether
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he would not agree that it would be highly desirable that there should be British participation next year in Greece, in view of the fact that Byron is an eminent British poet and is also a Greek national hero? May I ask my noble friend whether Her Majesty's Government would be willing to support, through the auspices of the British Council, an exhibition either in London or in Athens, with Byron and the Greek War of Independence as its theme?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am well aware of Lord Byron's connection with Greece's independence, and there may well be something in the idea which my noble friend has just mooted. I do not think it would be helpful if I were to go into any detail at the present time about what particular form of participation, if any, we may take in this historical event, because at the present time these matters are under discussion privately between the parties concerned.
LORD BURNTWOOD: My Lords, if participation of this nature is approved, will the Minister consider the return to the Erectheum of the caryatid which was removed a long time ago for reasons which might have been good at the time, but which no longer hold good, bearing in mind that the Greeks, in the long run, will rid themselves of tyranny?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, before replying to the noble Lord's supplementary question may I congratulate him on the first supplementary question which he has put in your Lordships' House? Possibly the question would be more properly addressed to my noble friend Lord Eccles in both his present and his previous capacity, but I will see that this matter is brought to the attention of those concerned.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he does not consider that Lord Byron would turn in his grave if he had an exhibition in his honour in present-day Athens?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I do not think it is for me to speculate on that particular matter. All I would permit myself to add is that Lord Byron, if he were able to do so, would, like Her Majesty's Government, look forward, as we do, to the restoration of democratic liberties in Greece.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether he is not aware that Lord Byron would surely have approved of the decision of the Greek Government to support our fight against the axis in 1940, albeit a decision taken by a dictator?
EARL JELLICOE: Yes, my Lords.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, may I finally ask my noble friend whether Her Majesty's Government will bear very much in mind the fact that since 1966 there has been no British orchestra, no British ballet company and no British theatrical company appearing at the Festival, while in effect the Iron Curtain countries, particularly this year and last year, have sent a number of orchestras? Is it not rather ridiculous that Iron Curtain countries should be sending orchestras while we do not send any at all?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I must confess that I am imperfectly informed about what particular orchestral dispositions the Iron Curtain countries have made. But the consideration which he has put to your Lordships will be in our minds.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, would the noble Earl state whether he considers that as a matter of principle our cultural activities in Greece ought to be increased or diminished, quite regardless of the political complexion of the Government of that country?
EARL JELLICOE: I should like to say that Her Majesty's Government would favour, within the limited means available in this matter—and the priorities— an extension of cultural contact between the two countries, between which there is a long and traditional friendship.
VISCOUNT TENBY: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether Lord Byron would undoubtedly prefer a colonels' régime to a Fascist régime, but at the same time he would definitely not approve of the present régime in Greece?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I think these hypothetical questions about what Lord Byron might or might not like go a little beyond the particular Question.
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All I would say is that, like the noble Lord, I am a great admirer of Lord Byron as a letter writer; and no doubt the noble Lord has read the views of Lord Byron on the Greek situation in 1821.

ANIMAL TRANSPORT: EUROPEAN CONVENTION
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they propose to ratify the European Convention for the Protection of Animals during International Transport.]
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to ratify the European Convention for the Protection of Animals during International Transport. Before they can do so, however, a number of legal and administrative problems have to be solved and legislation will be required.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, may I thank the noble Earl for his Answer? May I ask whether he is aware that if this subject is not dealt with in the Queen's Speech next year he may expect Notice of Motion?
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, whether it will be in the Queen's Speech or not is not for me to forecast at the moment. I am afraid it will not be possible to ratify it during the present Session, but I have every hope that it may be possible in the next one.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, arising out of the original reply, may I ask whether Her Majesty's Government are aware that this traffic, both by sea and air, is producing a large amount of cruelty, unnecessary suffering and deaths among birds and animals? Do they realise that this is a most urgent problem?
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, yes, they certainly realise that it is a most urgent problem, and every speed possible is being made.

TRAFFIC NOISE
2.56 p.m.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they adhere to the last Government's target date of 1980 for the halving of present traffic noise.]
LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON: Yes, my Lords.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that that is a very satisfactory Answer?
LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON: My Lords, we are always pleased to be able to please all parts of the House.
LORD IRONSIDE: My Lords, would my noble friend give more detail on this matter? I should like to know how he expects to achieve this result if the number of cars on the road is expected to double by this date?
LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON: My Lords, in regard to the last part of the noble Lord's question, we are talking about the reduction in sound of individual cars, lorries or motorcycles. We are going about this in two halves. We shall shortly be publishing regulations which will require lower noise limits by 1973, which is what was intended in the White Paper that noble Lords opposite published; and we have every hope that by 1980, with the scientific research that is going on, we shall be able further to reduce the target to that which was intended in the White Paper.
THE EARL OF GOWRIE: My Lords, may I ask whether my noble friend is aware that laws in America are much more stringent about the abuse and use of silencers on motor cars than they are in this country? And may I, with great sympathy for his answer—and pleasure in it—ask him whether he will kindly look into the number of prosecutions that have been made with regard to abuse of silencer regulations in this country.
LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON: Yes, my Lords. I am grateful for what the noble Earl says about America. I
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will look into the matter and ask my right honourable friend in another place also to look into it. With regard to the latter part of his question, I may tell your Lordships that about 12,000 prosecutions are made each year by the police in regard to noise which is due to culpable fault of the owners.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, would it be possible for the noble Lord to bring the date of 1984 forward to 1971–72, because there is going to be a terrible noise in this country about Tory policy in the next two years.
LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON: My Lords, we are moving as fast as the scientists will allow us. By 1973 we are going to have a further reduction, as I have already said.

B.O.A.C. AIRCRAFT HIJACKING: SECURITY MEASURES
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what disciplinary action was taken against the official responsible for security in Bahrein when the Arab guerrillas boarded the B.O.A.C. VC 10, subsequently diverted by them to an airstrip in Jordan at a time when security ought to have been at its maximum as other airliners had been diverted and all the world knew that the B.O.A.C. would be a priority target.]
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN): My Lords, responsibility for security is shared between airlines and airport authorities. According to my information, the persons to whom the noble Lord refers did not board the aircraft at Bahrein, but at another Gulf airport. I am satisfied that B.O.A.C. attempted to take effective steps to tighten their security at all Gulf airports in the period immediately before the hijacking.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. May I ask whether it was not really a piece of neglect not to have searched people at those points, whether it was in

289
Bahrein or elsewhere, thereby allowing people who were fully armed to get firearms and bombs, according to the reports later published, on to the aircraft?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I would reply to that question by saying that the decision whether to search, and how intensive the search should be, lies with the airline; but it is the police, in conjunction with the local customs officials, who would have to do the search in each case.
LORD BRAYE: My Lords, may I ask why it is that at present not everybody is searched at London Airport?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, this Question relates to disciplinary action taken against an official responsible for security in Bahrein. If the noble Lord's supplementary question relates to that, then I would only say that I have already said that effective steps to tighten security at all Gulf airports were taken in so far as it was within the capacity of B.O.A.C. to take them.

HOUSING FINANCE
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, at a suitable moment after 3.30 p.m. my noble friend Lord Sandford will be making a Statement on housing finance.
BRITISH WATERWAYS BILL
Read 2a, and committed to a Select Committee.
BRIDGE STREET BAPTIST CHURCH, BANBURY BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a and passed, and sent to the Commons.

ARMED FORCES BILL [H.L.]
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to continue the Army Act 1955 and the Air Force Act 1955, to limit the duration of the Naval Discipline Act 1957, and to amend these Acts and other enactments relating to the Armed Forces. My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read the first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a. —(Lord Carrington.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 36(5) be suspended so as to enable the Lord Privy Seal's Motion on the Reorganisation of Central Government to be taken before the four Special Orders on Tuesday the 10th of November.—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COPYRIGHT BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

MINES MANAGEMENT BILL [H.L.]
3.5 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. Your Lordships will of course recognise it as one we considered and passed during the last Parliament— although I am bound to say that the attendance of your Lordships to-day is very much greater than it was on that occasion. It was then welcomed by both sides of your Lordships' House and was given a very speedy passage. Perhaps I may remind your Lordships that on that occasion I said:
"… this was an exceptionally well drafted and clear Bill. Its purpose was clear; its purposes commended themselves to the House. …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30/4/70, col. 1114.]
On that occasion I was speaking from the Benches opposite and the noble Lord, Lord Delacourt-Smith, was in my place here. But this change of position has not made me, or the Government, change our view of the Bill. We examined the earlier Bill carefully and have needed to make only one small change in it. To save your Lordships the task of comparing the two versions to identify the change, I will revert to it in a few minutes.

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The purposes of the Bill are quite clear. For more than a century there has been legislation in this country dealing with the safety, health and welfare of mineworkers. This has been reviewed from time to time—either following disasters or because the Government of the day considered that a review was needed for other reasons. The last general review was made by the Royal Commission under the chairmanship of Lord Rockley which reported in 1938. The Report of that Commission resulted in the Mines and Quarries Act 1954, which is the governing Act in this field. The tragic disaster at Aberfan four years ago, which the Tribunal under Sir Herbert Edmund Davies investigated, led to the Mines and Quarries (Tips) Act 1969. These two Acts, generally speaking, lay down broad principles—the ends to be achieved. Detailed provisions laying down how these ends are to be achieved are contained in regulations made as Statutory Instruments.
One essential feature in this code of mining law is that responsibilities are firmly placed on persons who can clearly be identified. At a mine, prime responsibility rests on the manager who is automatically guilty of an offence if there is any contravention of provisions of the Acts or regulations (except where the duty is expressly laid on some other person). The 1954 Act allows for the appointment of one or more under-managers and, indeed, requires one to be appointed in certain circumstances; as the law now stands an under-manager's responsibilities may be limited to part of a mine, and if a contravention takes place in a part which is within his jurisdiction he too is automatically guilty of an offence.
These provisions were reasonable and acceptable when the 1954 Act was drafted. But since that time there have been big changes in the coal mining industry. At that time the National Coal Board was organised in five tiers; now there are three. There are far fewer collieries, but their average output is very much greater. Mechanisation has made tremendous strides. In 1958 only 28 per cent. of coal output came from mechanised faces. In 1968–69 the percentage had risen to 93 per cent. Consequently the industry is much more capital-intensive. A single face may
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represent an investment of a quarter of a million pounds. To be operated economically, it has to be worked on two or three shifts each day instead of the single coal turning shift which used to be normal. In 1958 there were nine coal faces at which three shifts were being worked. In 1968–69 there were 315.
I should like to explain to your Lordships why it is difficult to cope with these changes satisfactorily with the law as it stands at present. First, the law does not recognise, and so does not place statutory responsibilities on, any official who might be interposed between the manager and the under-managers to assist the manager in carrying out his duties. In the mining industry statutory recognition and statutory responsibility march hand in hand with authority; without statutory recognition and statutory responsibility it is difficult to exercise authority. This is quite understandable. Where the law requires an under-manager to "carry the can", he may well be diffident about taking instructions from a senior who has no such legal hardware to handle. We propose to put this right by providing in Clause 1 that a senior employee who is instructed in writing to assist in the discharge of a manager's statutory functions shall have the same responsibility before the law, in relation to those functions, as the manager himself.
The second snag concerns under-managers. Under the 1954 Act an under-manager's responsibilities may be limited to part only of a mine. But within that part he is responsible for 24 hours a day and seven days a week. Clearly, it would be indefensible to continue to hold him statutorily responsible all the time if another under-manager has charge of the same part of the mine but on a different shift. Clause 2 gets over this by providing him with a defence if there is a contravention of the Act or regulations at a time when he is off duty and the contravention is not due to any act or omission on his part.
I have explained the difficulties and how it is proposed to overcome them. Now a word about safeguards. The Bill is designed to ensure that an assistant is neither given nor accepts duties which he is not qualified to perform. It may

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be convenient to your Lordships if I refer at this stage to the one change we have made in the Bill. The previous Bill made it an offence for an assistant to act on instructions given to him by the manager if he knew that he was "not capable of having any statutory responsibility" because he did not hold qualifications specified for the particular purpose of those instructions. These words "not capable of having any responsibility" appeared in Clause 1(b). We now consider them to be too wide because although a man might not hold those particular qualifications required for certain duties, he might well be qualified for statutory responsibility in another capacity. We have therefore changed the words to read:
"… not capable of having a statutory responsibility of the manager …"
I should perhaps also add that a minor amendment will be required to the Bill because of a change in the organisation of Government since the Bill was printed.
This Bill is short, but important. It will assist the coal mining industry to adapt its management structure to modern conditions and to the technological revolution which has taken place. The provisions of the Bill will ensure that the industry is not hampered by legislative requirements that have become outdated in some respects. I readily acknowledge that the credit for the Bill belongs to the previous Administration. Because we recognise its merits, we have taken an early opportunity to introduce it anew to your Lordships' House. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
3.13 p.m.
LORD DELACOURT-SMITH: My Lords, as the noble Lord indicated, he and I have been here before, and I must congratulate him on his greater drawirg power, as is evident from the larger attendance in your Lordships' House, than when I had the privilege of commending a virtually identical Bill to your Lordships some six months ago. I am bound to observe that I trust that the noble Lord is here setting a precedent in respect of the coal industry and that before very long we shall have the opportunity of hearing him introduce a Coal Industry Bill which will follow as closely
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as the present Bill the intentions of the previous Government.
My Lords, in the circumstances it is clear that we on this side of the House give a warm welcome and shall give a very favourable passage to this Bill. I do not think that the amendment which has been made is likely to cause us materially to modify our opinion of it. As the noble Lord has explained, it is a Bill which is necessitated by the changing economic and technological character of the mining industry and it is, of course, a Bill of which the theme and the purpose is the further improvement of mine safety. In this regard it is gratifying to be able to say that the latest Report of the National Coal Board, which contains the figures of casualties for the year 1969–70, marks a continuance of the favourable trend beyond the figures for the calendar year 1969 which were the latest then available to me when I commended this Bill to your Lordships in April.
It is perhaps noteworthy also that the National Coal Board Report draws attention in this regard to growing concern at the number of accidents that occur either on the surface or on the haulage and transport systems underground. I am sure that that situation is attracting and engaging the attention of all those who had any degree of responsibility for it. I think it would not be appropriate for this Bill to pass through your Lordships' House without paying tribute to the concern which has been shown with all aspects of mine safety by the National Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers and other appropriate trade unions; and I wish in particular to pay a tribute to the work and the activities and the standards set over a very long period of time by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Mines. My Lords, I join with the noble Lord in commending this Bill to your Lordships.
LORD ARWYN: My Lords, I have not put my name down to speak, but I think I am probably one of the few mine managers, if not the only one, at present in your Lordships' House, and I should like to congratulate the Government on carrying out the work which our Party started, and realising the stress which a mine manager has. Only people who have experienced this stress can possibly

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know what it means. The telephone can ring at any time of the day or night—at night by one's bedside, and it can be a terrifying experience. Until now it has been legally impossible to hand over adequate responsibility to anybody. I confess that I am speaking with emotion because I have myself suffered these things, and I congratulate the Government on reintroducing this Bill.
3.18 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, may I just thank the two noble Lords who have spoken for the welcome they have given to this Bill, as well they might. I realise it is purely fortuitous that there are a larger number of your Lordships here than on the previous occasion because we are, quite rightly, taking this Bill at an early stage.
May I now refer to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Delacourt-Smith, about the Coal Industry Bill? As he will doubtless recall, my honourable friend the Lord President announced in the House of Commons on July 16 that the Government will introduce a Bill this Session to lessen the effects on the mining community of the contraction in the coal industry after the existing powers expire in March of next year, and that Bill will be published in the near future.
I should like to join in what has been said about mine safety. There has been a dramatic fall in casualties and this, as the noble Lord said, marks not only the concern but the success of all those who have had anything to do with this subject. I would also join with him in the tribute that he paid to the inspectors in this regard, but I would also say that the real effort and responsibility for the reduction of casualties lies with those who manage and work in the mines, and I think this improvement is a signal tribute to all of them.
As to the remarks made by the noble Lord about the risk of accidents on the surface and the haulage and transport systems underground, I am sure that careful note will be taken of them, and I hope that the same success will attend the efforts to deal with this problem as with other problems, such as pneumoconiosis and the like. Again, I thank the House for the way in which it has received this Bill.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

CONSUMER PROTECTION BILL [H.L.]
3.20 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. As I explained to your Lordships on First Reading, this Bill is a substitution for a previous Bill which I withdrew because the drafting was faulty, so may I start by thanking very sincerely my noble friend Lord Windlesham, the Home Office and the Parliamentary draftsman for getting the drafting of this Bill right.
As your Lordships will see, this Bill seeks to amend Section 3 of the Consumer Protection Act 1961. Section 2 of that Act deals with the prohibition of sale of certain articles or parts of articles. The regulations that prohibit their sale are not only for selling but for holding for sale. Section 3, which I seek to amend, gives the enforcement provisions. When that Act had been in force for some time it was found that there was a gap in the enforcement provisions which makes enforcement in certain cases very difficult and in certain cases virtually impossible. This was realised seven years later in 1968 when the Trade Descriptions Act was brought in; this loophole had been spotted and the necessary section was put into that Act. This Bill in fact brings the Consumer Protection Act into line with the later Act.
The law under the present Act is that where a retailer—or anyone else for that matter, but I want to talk particularly about the retailer—sells goods which are prohibited, the local authority in whose area the goods are being sold must first of all prosecute the retailer. The retailer has a defence laid down in the Act if he can prove, which is not always easy, that he had reasonable grounds for believing that the goods were in accordance with the regulations. As I hope to show in a moment, very often the fault lies with a wholesaler, and more often with an importer or a manufacturer. But the local authority who have brought an action against the retailer— and that must be the first step—cannot bring an action against the manufacturer

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or importer if they are outside the local authority area. There are very few local authorities who have manufacturers and importers necessarily inside their area. Therefore, the only way to bring a satisfactory prosecution in a case which is not the retailer's fault is to ask another local authority to bring an action. The whole procedure has to be completed within six months. Very often this makes it virtually impossible to prosecute anyone. That is the position.
The matter is urgent because of the safety regulations for children's toys. The regulations are fairly involved and very widespread. Apart from the big toy shops, such as Hamley's, specialising only in toys, there are thousands of small retailers all over the country selling a few toys who have neither the experience nor the equipment to test the toys to see whether they come within the regulations. Some of the testing is extremely expensive. The most usual fault, I think, is the lead content, either in part of the toy or in the paint on the toy. Small retailers cannot possibly test that; they do not have the facilities, and, as I say, it is expensive. As a result, as the Act now stands, when it is quite clear that the retailer is not really at fault, local authorities are very often very unwilling to prosecute, partly because they think it unfair and partly because it appears rather a waste of time.
If this Bill is passed, there will be what are called "passing over" provisions. That means that where the fault lies with a manufacturer or an importer—all of whom have or should have facilities—or to a wholesaler, then the prosecution can be passed by the local authority against the person who is really at fault. One of the reasons why it is so complicated to enforce in regard to toys at the moment is this. Although many toys are manufactured in this country, an enormous number, perhaps the majority, are imported from Germany, Italy, Jugoslavia, Japan, Hong Kong, China, all over the place, and no small retailer can possibly know if what he is buying from the importer is in accordance with the regulations. If this Bill becomes law, at once the local authority will be able to proceed against the person they find is really responsible. The matter is urgent because children's health, and in some cases their lives, are at risk. Children suck lead
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toys and so on. I use lead as an example; there are other dangerous toys. So although this is a small Bill, I hope your Lordships think it a worthwhile one, and I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.— (Lord Derwent.)
3.25 p.m.
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, I should like at once to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, on introducing this Bill at this time, because he seems to have persuaded the Government to find time for it—and I do not get the feeling that the Government are unduly interested in the affairs of the consumer, particularly as they have not shown great regard for the only watchdog the consumer had.
I should also like to congratulate the noble Lord on the clear way in which he explained the Bill to us. As he so rightly said, the 1961 Act is an Act of great significance and relevance. This was brought home to me only last week when talking to a group of women who were voicing their concern about these unsafe toys; and indeed about other electrical goods which are unfortunately appearing in the shops. As the noble Lord has said, it is right to extend the coverage of responsibility. One would, of course, hope that this Act may be extended; some of us would like to see it extended to the area of testing and other matters. But at this time, as the noble Lord pointed out, it is a matter of urgency, and I wish his Bill every fair wind and success in passing through this House.
LORD DONALDSON OF KINGS-BRIDGE: My Lords, may I briefly endorse the comments of my noble friend Lady Phillips. I think the noble Lord has brought forward a Bill which requires to be introduced. It passes over the responsibility from the retailer, where it rests under the Sale of Goods Act, to the person who has the ultimate liability, who is the manufacturer, wholesaler or importer. I think all of us who know anything about this subject must welcome it, and I hope that your Lordships will give the Bill an easy passage.
3.28 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD WINDLESHAM): My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, has explained very clearly the purpose of the Bill which he has introduced. Its

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intention, as he has indicated, is to amend the Consumer Protection Act 1961 so as to include "passing over" or "bypassing" provisions of the kind contained in other legislation concerned with the protection of consumers. Such provisions can be found not only in Section 23 of the Trade Descriptions Act 1968, on which this Bill is based, and to which the noble Lord referred, but also in Section 27 of the Weights and Measures Act 1963, Section 113 of the Food and Drugs Act 1955 and Section 45 of the Food and Drugs (Scotland) Act 1956.
Since the Consumer Protection Act was passed in 1961, regulations have been made relating to the safety of oil heaters, toys and carry-cot stands, the flammability of nightdresses and the colour coding of flexible cords attached to or supplied with domestic electrical appliances. Further regulations are in course of preparation. As the noble Lord said, enforcement of these regulations is entirely a matter for local authorities.
It is an offence for any person to sell or offer for sale in the course of a business any goods which do not comply with regulations made under the Act. Anyone, whether manufacturer, importer, wholesaler or retailer, who sells or offers for sale non-complying goods therefore commits an offence under the Act.
Section 3(2) of the 1961 Act provides that, in the event of a prosecution, it is a defence if the person who is prosecuted can establish that he had reasonable cause to believe that all the requirements of the relevant regulations had been satisfied. When the Consumer Protection Bill was before your Lordships' House in 1961 the application of the Bill to sales by retailers and the adequacy of the defence provisions were discussed at some length and, at the Committee stage, the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, moved an Amendment which would have inserted both defence and "passing-over" provisions on the lines of Section 113 of the Food and Drugs Act 1955. The noble Lord, however, withdrew his Amendment on the grounds that the defence so provided would be less favourable to retailers than the defence already provided in the Bill to which he
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and I have already referred. No "passing-over" provisions were included, since under the Bill anyone in the chain between manufacturer or importer and retailer could be prosecuted if he had sold non-complying goods and in these circumstances "passing-over" provisions did not appear to be necessary.
In the event, as the noble Lord has said, there have been certain difficulties which were not foreseen nine years ago. In the case of regulations based on a British Standard, such as the Oil Heater Regulations, retailers can rely on the British Standards Institution's Kite-mark as ensuring that the goods which they offer for sale comply with the regulations. Then again, compliance with regulations such as the Electrical Appliances (Colour Code) Regulations can be confirmed by visual inspection of the goods in question. As regards other regulations, however, such as the Toys (Safety) Regulations, there is usually no Kite-mark or other visible approval to which the retailer can turn and on which he can rely. Most retailers, for example, are clearly unable to determine for themselves whether or not the lead content in the paint on the toys which they sell is within the prescribed limit. In practice, therefore, they have sought a written assurance from their wholesalers that any toys or other goods supplied comply with any statutory requirements which may be relevant, but it seems that, in some instances, the courts have not regarded the assurances obtained by retailers as sufficient for the purposes of the defence opportunities provided by the 1961 Act. This of course is entirely a matter for the courts, but it does point to the sort of difficulty with which a retailer can be faced.
The power to prosecute was also referred to by the noble Lord, and this is entirely in the hands of the local authorities. Local authorities can prosecute only for offences committed within their own area, and the manufacturer or importer will frequently be in business in an area outside that in which the retailer is selling or offering the goods for sale. In theory, this could perhaps be overcome by local authorities' liaising more closely with one another, but in practice it has been found that this presents difficulty.

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I do not think the noble Lord mentioned another difficulty: that prosecution under this Act must take place within six months. This is provided for under the Magistrates' Courts Act 1952 and the Summary Jurisdiction (Scotland) Act 1954. Here again, the manufacturer or importer may escape because a period of six months has elapsed since the offence has been noticed by a local authority and proceedings have been instituted.
So, for reasons of this sort, as well as the ones that have been mentioned by the noble Lord in his introduction of the Bill, by the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, and the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, the Government welcome this Bill. We are happy to support it, and hope that your Lordships will agree to do the same.
3.34 p.m.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, may I just thank my noble friend, the noble Baroness and the noble Lord opposite for their support? I am glad that they think, as I do, that this is an urgent matter. There is just one point in regard to which I may have been misunderstood and which I would correct. A retailer may have been warned by an inspector but continues to sell, although by this time the local authority have proceeded against the real culprit. There is nothing to stop them from proceeding against the retailer at the same time. I think that ought to be made clear. I am most grateful to my noble friend for what he has said.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

HOUSING FINANCE
3.35 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (LORD SANDFORD): My Lords, with the permission of the House I should like to repeat a Statement which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Department of the Environment. The Statement sets out some of the broad decisions of principle on the basis of
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which we propose to change the structure of housing finance.
The Statement continues:
"There are a multitude of disadvantages with the present system. Ratepayers and taxpayers are being faced with a large and rapidly growing subsidy bill. The subsidies are not distributed so as to remedy the housing problems of the worst areas. The rents paid by tenants are related neither to the value and quality of their accommodation, nor to their capacity to pay. The help available to the poorer tenant is incomplete and haphazard. The present system of rent control in the private sector is creating new slums at the very time when local authorities are replacing existing slums with new houses.
"My right honourable friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales and I have worked out a strategy for reform, but before our plans can be perfected we will need to consult the local authorities and other interested parties.
"We intend to introduce a pattern of rents which will remove the present artificial distinctions and inequalities between the private and public rented sectors and within each of them.
"The fair rent principle has become generally recognised as an equitable basis of determining rent structures. I am glad to pay tribute to the Party opposite for introducing this principle. We now intend to take the natural step of extending it within the private sector. We intend to see that controlled tenancies will progress more rapidly into the fair rent system. We will thus prevent thousands of dwellings from sinking into decay and encourage the improvement and repair of these properties.
"At the same time we shall apply the fair rent principle to local authority dwellings in England and Wales over a period. There will be a limit to the average increase of rent in any one year.
"In Scotland my right honourable friend has concluded that, because of the different nature and the relative number of privately and publicly rented houses, the fair rent formula

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cannot be applied at present to council houses. However, in consulting the Scottish local authority associations he will be making proposals which for the next few years will have broadly the same financial effects as those which I have outlined for England and Wales, and will provide for the same rate of progression in rents. The aim will be to balance housing revenue accounts by the end of this period. My right honourable friend will consider the possibility of moving later to the same rent basis in Scotland as in England and Wales.
"In order to see that tenants are not prevented from occupying accommodation suited to their needs because of their inability to afford the rent we will introduce a comprehensive system of rent rebates and allowances for all of those in need. Any tenant of unfurnished accommodation who cannot afford to meet the full new rent will be able to obtain financial help which will have proper regard to his income and family commitments.
"Until now rent rebates have only been available to council tenants where the local authority have operated a rebate scheme. Under the Government proposals rent rebates will be available for the tenants of all local authorities. Under the previous system of subsidies, the system which will now be entirely recast, only one-seventh of the subsidies went into rent rebates. This Government intends to see by statute that subsidies from public funds will be directed towards those people who need them.
"In spite of the fact that the 1968 Family Expenditure Survey disclosed that a far higher proportion of households in the private unfurnished sector had incomes below £1,000 per annum than in the public sector, no form of rent rebate has been available to private tenants. It is the Government's intention to see that, in future, help is given to these tenants by means of an entirely new system of rent allowances for those tenants who need them —allowances that will be as generous as the rebates available in the local authority sector. Subject to discussions with their associations, we contemplate that the local authorities will operate
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the scheme and that the Exchequer will meet the greater part of the cost.
"There are two further major changes we intend to make in the subsidy system. The Government do not consider that the present subsidy system for slum clearance is adequate to meet the problem and we intend to take special steps to relieve the high cost of slum clearance.
"Secondly, in those areas where there is serious overcrowding new building is often exceptionally costly. It is therefore our intention to give special assistance to those authorities who need it to meet the high cost of tackling the related problems of overcrowding and obsolescence.
"We intend to continue a major drive for the improvement and rehabilitation of older houses.
"A reform on these lines will bring the full weight of Government assistance to bear on the worst areas of the housing problem. It will mean that those local authorities with serious housing problems will be better placed to solve them speedily. It will distribute subsidies equitably where they are needed and in doing so substantially reduce a growing burden which has become wholly indefensible. It will give the citizen more genuine responsibility in choosing the housing he needs. In short, it will create the conditions in which we can pursue a housing policy which is rational, fair and compassionate."
My Lords, that ends the Statement.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the House will indeed be grateful to the noble Lord for repeating this Statement. I do not think any of us would disagree with the noble Lord on the complexity of this subject, and it was for that reason that my noble friend Lord Greenwood of Rossendale, when he was Minister for Housing, required in his Department a full examination of the housing problem. I believe that a review had been completed and was being studied by him and his Department shortly before the General Election.
The Statement does not really take us very much further than the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Statement last week. There are no details. We understand that there are to be consultations with

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the local authorities and other interested parties. I hope that Parliament, particularly the other place, will be given some idea of what are the Government proposals to the local authorities and other parties, and therefore I would ask the noble Lord whether it is the intention of the Government to issue a White Paper setting out in detail the major proposals which they have in mind. I should have thought Parliament was entitled to that amount of information.
I would not disagree with, in fact I would give full support to, the latter part of the Statement, that further sums of money are required for slum clearance and also assistance to meet the very heavy costs of rebuilding in slum areas; and of course the rehabilitation of old places. All this will certainly require, if one takes it from this Statement, new monies over and above those which have been provided for by the previous Administration. However, we are now also to have a new class of assistance: that in the private sector. I would not disagree with this, where there is clearly a case. But all this means that new monies will need to be found, and we have to consider this Statement in the light of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Statement of last week in which it was stated that from £100 million to £200 million was to be cut from housing subsidies. Therefore, there can be only one construction here: that for the vast majority of council house tenants this Statement means massive increases in rent. Whether that is sound policy, I do not know, but I think that none of us should misunderstand the very great inflationary consequences of the step which the Government have in mind.
I do not intend to say anything further about this Statement. I think we need to have a White Paper, and then we can have a debate. But this Statement appears to be a sort of political smokescreen to hide the real significance that is behind it: that there are to be massive increases for council house tenants on a wide scale throughout the country, with dire consequences to inflation and to the general economy of this country.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his general welcome to the proposals in the Statement, and I would confirm what was, I
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think, made abundantly clear in the original Statement; namely, that the next step is to have extensive consultations with the local authorities. I am sure the noble Lord will understand that, in view of that, it is not sensible to go into considerable detail at this stage. What he says about a White Paper will certainly be considered, as will be necessary, at a later stage.
I think all I would say in answer to the comments made by the noble Lord towards the end of his remarks is that he will recognise, and I think the whole House will recognise, that the system we are operating at the moment will lead to a runaway burden on public funds, both for the ratepayer and for the taxpayer, and this package of proposals, which I have just expounded in the course of this Statement, sets a curb upon that. We are moving over to a fair rent system, which we have adopted from the system introduced by noble Lords opposite, and the effect of this will be that any increases that do come about will be cushioned to such an extent that not only will the tenants who are worst housed and least able to pay not be affected by them, but some of them may be better off than under the existing system.
3.50 p.m.
LORD WADE: My Lords, may I join in thanking the noble Lord for repeating that long Statement? I think all noble Lords will agree that it requires careful study, and we shall have to consider it at leisure. I do not think that anyone will doubt the proposition that the present system is in need of reform, and we shall support any reform which appears to be on the right lines. In the meantime, may I ask one or two questions?
In the first place, with regard to the private sector, the noble Lord stated that it is the intention of the Government to see that controlled tenancies progress more rapidly towards the fair rents system. Does it follow from that that the Statement refers only to those tenancies at present controlled, or is it intended that any tenancies not controlled will be brought under any form of control? Secondly, will the noble Lord agree that there is a distinction between realistic rents and security of tenure? If I may say so, the last Conservative Government failed to appreciate that. The greatest

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hardship arises where shortage of accommodation is accompanied by insecurity of tenure.
Will the noble Lord also agree that the crux of the problem is the serious housing shortage in certain areas, and will these proposals be put into force sufficiently speedily to deal with that very urgent problem? Lastly, so far as local authority housing is concerned, will the noble Lord agree that high interest rates have put a very heavy burden on some local authorities, and will any of these proposals help the local authorities in that respect?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his opening remarks and I shall seek to deal with his various questions. The Statement deals with two groups of tenancies: first, those that are at present controlled, for which there will be a transition by progressive stages from controlled to fair rents; and, secondly, local authority tenancies which will also, for the most part, move towards fair rents. But neither of those things will happen until a system of rent allowances and rent rebates is also available, to cushion the effect of those increases on the poorer tenants with the larger family commitments in both sectors.
The effect of the whole package, as I hope the Statement made clear, will be that more funds will be available not only for the tenants in private tenancies and local authority tenancies who need the rebates and the rent allowances, but also for those local authorities who, for the reasons which the noble Lord gave, and for some others, such as high interest rates, have a greater burden to bear in clearing their slums and providing new housing in high cost areas.
LORD SLATER: My Lords, will the noble Lord agree that the Statement to which we have listened this afternoon is directed towards achieving a substantial reduction in subsidies, so far as council housing is concerned? Secondly, will he not agree that this is a form of direction by a Conservative Government to the elected representatives of local authorities?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I cannot entirely agree with that. In some respects—namely, the statutory progression from controlled rents and local
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authority rents to fair rents—there will be statutory control in an area where there has not been statutory control up till now. But there will be a considerable amount of flexibility open to local authorities, and the way in which they modify, favourably if they wish to do so, the model scheme for rent rebates and rent allowances will be the subject of our consultations with them.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he can clarify two points in his speech? The first is with regard to the limit to the average increase in rents that will be imposed in any one year. Can he give us an idea about the figure which the Government have in mind for that average increase in rents? Secondly, in connection with the transitional move from control to decontrol will tenants lose any of the protection against eviction which they now enjoy?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, the answer to the last part is, No. It is a movement not from control to decontrol, but from control to regulated fair rents; and the rent which a landlord will be able to charge will be fixed by procedures with which the noble Lord is no doubt already familiar. I do not know whether that answers all his points.
LORD LEATHERLAND: No, my Lords. The other question was: what is the average increase in rents that will be regarded as the maximum?
LORD SANDFORD: No, my Lords, I cannot give details of that, because that is among the subjects which we shall be discussing with the local authority associations.
BARONESS GAITSKELL: My Lords, who is going to decide what is a fair rent?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, broadly speaking, the rent officers. But in view of the scale of the operation, the very large number of houses that will be involved in this operation, there will be slight modifications from the procedure which is operating now in respect of a relatively small number of houses. But the principle is entirely the same, and the rent officers and the rent assessment panels are behind it.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, as this scheme will undoubtedly create much bigger administration, may I ask who is to bear the cost of the added administration?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I am not quite sure where the noble Lord thinks the extra administration will be. There will be a considerable increase in the number of rent officers, and local authorities will have to modify, and perhaps increase, the staffs who deal with rent allowances and rent rebates. These increases will be absorbed and, of course, in the long run the housing account will move out of deficit.
LORD LINDGREN: Therefore, my Lords, the tenants, the ratepayers, will have to bear the added cost of this administration which is being imposed upon them.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, some tenants will have to do so. But the point I want to stress is that the tenants with large family commitments, those in the least favourable position to pay, are going to benefit considerably from these measures, which I think all noble Lords will agree is the main object of any housing subsidy system.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord can help us on this important point. Can he tell us whether the Government have made up their mind at what level of income assistance can be given?
LORD SANDFORD: No, my Lords. The Government have not made up their mind to the extent where I can quote precise figures, because this is among the subjects about which we are to have consultations with local authorities.
LORD MOLSON: My Lords, does the Parliamentary Secretary realise that there will be a very widespread feeling throughout the country that this is a reform on exactly the right lines; that it is giving relief where relief is most needed, and that it will bring to an end a state of affairs in which large subsidies from the taxpayer and the ratepayer are paid to tenants who are in no need at all of assistance? Does the Parliamentary Secretary also realise that this is entirely in line with what was put forward by the Conservative Party at the last Election,
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and that it is following logically on the lines of the "fair rents" Act passed by the last Socialist Government, which has worked so extraordinarily satisfactorily and brought about a most desirable increase in nearly all the rents that have come before the rent officers?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for those remarks. I am sure that everybody realises that this is a considerable nettle to grasp, but I am also sure that the great majority of people realise that it is high time it was grasped.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, is it not intended by the Government to bring into effect a general reduction in the Government subsidy? Is not that the purpose of these proposals? If so, unless there is a reduction in the costs of building, and of repairs and maintenance and the like, does it not follow that, on the whole, rents will be increased? Why do the Government not admit that?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I do not admit the noble Lord's first proposition. The object of this exercise is to ensure that housing subsidies are applied where they are most needed.
LORD HOY: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord a question about how these proposals will affect Scotland? I think he said that he did not think it was quite practicable at the present moment, but that the Secretary of State for Scotland had given an assurance that, without these proposals, he could do what the Government propose to do with them in England and Wales. How in fact is the Scottish Office going to operate a system of that kind? May I also ask the noble Lord what is meant by his words, with regard to the Scottish proposals, "the same rate of progression of rents"? What do these words mean? Do they in fact mean increases in rents; and, if so, why do not the Government say so? Indeed, if there is also going to be fair rent substitution, may I ask the noble Lord whether he can give us an assurance that when they move from control to fair rents all the control satisfaction which is given to tenants at present will be maintained; that no controls will go at all, and that while there may be changes in rent the controlled tenant will still have the safeguards that he has at the present time?

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May I also ask the noble Lord a question on the concluding sentences of his Statement? He said that the Government expected to save many millions of pounds by these proposals. Does that not mean what my noble friend Lord Shinwell has said: that there will be a very substantial increase indeed for the majority of householders—that is, the rent-payers—in this country?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, may I deal first with the last point? The position is that were nothing done about this, were this nettle not to be grasped, we should be faced in four years or five years' time with a housing subsidy that would impose a really tremendous burden on public funds, on both the ratepayer and the taxpayer, in giving subsidies to large numbers of people who had no need of them. The object of this package of proposals is to ensure that housing subsidy is given, and more generously than now, to those people who need it, both in the private and in the public sector, but not to those who do not need it.
Perhaps I might deal now with what the noble Lord was asking me about Scotland. I have been giving a broad statement of the principles that will form the basis for discussions with associations in England, Scotland and Wales. The number of regulated tenancies in houses comparable with local authority housing is so small in Scotland that the Government cannot establish a reliable basis for taking a fair rent level as an immediate objective in Scotland, and that is why the whole process will operate in a slightly different way in Scotland as compared with that in England and Wales.
LORD HOY: My Lords, will the noble Lord now say what is meant by "the same rate of progression of rents"?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, now that my noble friend Lord Sandford has dealt, I think at some length, with the statutory Scottish question, I think your Lordships may feel that it is about time we moved on to other business; and this, I think, would be in accordance with our normal procedure. Also, it is within my recollection that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, expressed the view that the details of this important Statement should properly and fully be debated at
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a later date in your Lordships' House, and I feel that this might be the best way for us to proceed.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I would not disagree with the noble Earl. I make only one point. Perhaps the noble Lord could answer this very short question: what is meant by "the progression of rents"?
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, the progression of rents is the progression from where they are now to a fair rent system. That is the principle that will apply, and the principle that is our first, immediate objective in England and Wales. The system is already familiar to noble Lords in respect of regulated private tenancies. It is being introduced in England and Wales in relation to local authority tenancies, but this is not precisely the way in which this same progression is going to take place in Scotland.

NEW FOREST CONSULTATIVE PANEL
4.5 p.m.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what is the proposed composition and terms of reference of the New Forest Consultative Committee recently announced by the Forestry Commission. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I should first of all say that I made a slight mistake in my Question, in that I believe that the official title is the New Forest Consultative Panel. Over the past years there have been many debates on the New Forest in your Lordships' House. I am sure Peers in all parts of the House will agree that the New Forest is probably one of the most unique areas of unspoilt countryside which exists to-day in England, and probably in the whole world. It is perhaps typically English that we continue to call one of our most precious heritages "new" when it is in fact over 1,000 years old. Although in most ways it has retained its original character, it was unfortunately founded on discord, and this unhappy state has continued to this present time. In mediaeval days, harsh legislation to prevent the poaching of deer alienated the local population, and later, as the royal desire to kill deer decreased. so

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the need for pasturage for the commoners increased, and so the dissensions grew between Crown and people.
In fact, the modern history of the New Forest started with the Deer Removal Act 1851, when the price paid for a promise by Queen Victoria to surrender her hunting rights and agree to a reduction in the deer population was large-scale enclosures for the growing of timber. Thus started the long, running battle between the commoners and what is now called the Forestry Commission, whose clear duty it is to grow timber for the country's needs. Enclosures, however necessary for trees, are in many ways contrary to the requirements of those who live in the New Forest and those who are trying to preserve as much of the indigenous character as possible. Unfortunately, this running sore from time to time swells up and releases poisonous and disruptive forces, particularly when some area comes under what is known as "forestry conservation". I think it would be fair to say that, over the years, under successive deputy surveyors, the balance has been fairly held between the Forestry Commission and the local people. However, recently the whole problem has been greatly aggravated by the ever-increasing impact of tourism and everything it brings in its wake. This has occurred at a time when the increasing necessity for the Forestry Commission to take a hard, commercial view of its operations has once again brought old conflicts to the forefront.
The most recent plan of operation which is visualised by the Forestry Commission not only deals with normal forestry operations but also suggests methods of rehabilitation for some of the ancient and ornamental woods, which are held sacred not only by expert naturalists but by everyone who lives in the Forest. Over the past year there have been acrimonious public discussions and angry letters to the Press. Consequently, in September of this year the Forestry Commission announced, through the means of a Press release, with some surprise to local people, that it had been decided to set up a Consultative Panel with whom they could exchange views about the common problems that face the Forest. I have no doubt that the motives behind this announcement were entirely laudable. It was, however, particularly unfortunate that the announcement was made during
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the Parliamentary Recess, giving the Government no chance to explain the aims and objects of the Panel. Thus one of my main purposes this afternoon in raising this matter is to give the Government the opportunity to fill in the background about the functions of this Panel, not only with regard to its composition but also with regard to its terms of reference.
I am sure that the Forestry Commission had fondly hoped that the setting up of such a Panel would do much to allay the fears of local people, and would in future serve to lower the temperature. The Forestry Commissioners could certainly have optimistically expected their announcement to have been received with enthusiasm by all concerned. However, this was not so, mainly because the original Press release issued by the Forestry Commission announced that consultations would take place with those interested with regard to the composition of the Panel. However, the announcement itself immediately produced a stream of requests from every type of organisation interested in or living in the Forest to be represented. Most of them were accepted. In this democratic age it is desirable that everyone should have a voice; but we are now faced with a consultative Panel of over 50 people and it is widely felt that the Panel has got to such a size as perhaps to render it completely ineffective from the day it meets.
The New Forest Association, a major interested party, on whose council is represented the majority of New Forest interests, has refused to co-operate. I am personally disappointed with this decision and particularly deplore the fact that it may have been influenced by a personal vendetta against the present Deputy Surveyor. In spite of trying to spread the net as wide as possible there are still a large number of people not yet invited who think they should be invited, and whose activities affect the Forest in a more significant way than the local women's institutes which are already included. Knowing the New Forest societies as I do, I think it is doubtful in any case whether they will all agree. Therefore I hope the Government will see that it is essential to elect from this main Panel an executive committee of manageable size who will be responsible for the day-to-day contact with the Forestry Commission. Perhaps this size

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can be restricted to the size of the Chairman's dining room table. Further, I think it would be sensible to have a meeting of the main Panel in public on about four occasions a year. This would be sufficient not only to give the representatives an opportunity to express their views but also to allow members of the general public to come forward and raise matters which they feel are important.
I turn now to the question of the Chairman. This is the cause of some controversy at the moment. In my opinion it is absolutely right and proper that the appointment should be made by the Forestry Commission and that he should be independent. I feel that the present Deputy Surveyor's suggestion to his Chairman of the appointment of Sir Dudley Forwood is an excellent one. Sir Dudley is a man who has lived in the Forest all his life and whose interest and concern for the Forest is well known. I have complete faith in his impartiality and in his ability to enter into meaningful discussions with all interested parties. Whether or not in the future, when Sir Dudley's successor is appointed, there should be consultations with the Panel is a matter for the Commission to decide; but I feel that the appointment must in the future be the responsibility of the Commission. This is going to be a difficult job, and knowing the many different currents running through the Forest I do not think this is a post suitable to be filled by election.
My Lords, I turn now to the terms of reference. In the words of the Press Release, this Panel was set up:
"to serve as a sounding board for local public opinion on the factors which need to be taken into account in their management of the Forest."
I am sure that the Government will confirm that it is not their intention to set up the Panel merely as a public relations front. We all hope that it is intended to be a vital body whose advice will be listened to and who can have a close relationship with the management. Indeed, the setting up of this Panel may be of particular significance, as in the middle of the 20th century perhaps the time has come to take a new look at this area. No longer can it be considered only as an area suitable for the growing of hardwoods and softwoods. It is, with its 6
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million visitors a year, one of the major playgrounds of Southern England. Indeed. its indigenous woodlands are priceless, so far as the flora and fauna are concerned; and bearing in mind that even the ancient and ornamental woodlands need proper management (as, unfortunately, even old oak trees eventually die), it would seem sensible that the ancient and ornamental woodlands should be treated on purely heritage principles for the long-term benefit of the nation.
In dealing with these areas, the most expert advice from other disciplines should be called upon. Management should continue under the Forestry Commission but with expert advice given further weight through the necessity of consulting the verderers, as is now the case. The fact is that the New Forest can be considered the first National Park ever to be created in this country. All that it lacks is official status and administration. I believe I am right in saying that there are some 12,000 acres of conifers under cultivation at the moment. Their management must continue to be the sole responsibility of the Commission.
However, with regard to the 7,500 acres of ancient and ornamental woodlands, I am sure that everyone in the Forest is delighted to hear that the new Minister of Agriculture has put a public moratorium on the future treatment of these woodlands for 18 months and on other broadleaf enclosures until he visits the Forest on the 23rd of this month. Many feel that these other woodlands should also be designated with the new category of ancient and ornamental woodlands to be managed on heritage principles. However, let it be said that there has been, after all, considerable achievement under the last Government, with the Ponies Bill and the New Forest Bill, both of which are now Acts of Parliament. All that now seems necessary is to decide on policy, not only towards the ancient and ornamental and broadleaf woodlands but also to protect the Forest as a whole from the ever-growing impact of the public and tourism.
One of the sorest points in the Forest at the moment is the fact that the not inconsiderable sum of money which results from camping, caravan and other tourist fees goes back to the Forestry Commission and thus disappears into the

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Treasury. There is no comparative spending in the Forest on urgent matters which are vital to protect it from the full impact of tourism. There is a desperate need for money to be spent on well-designed and well-sited toilets, screened car parks, the fencing off of fragile areas and on giving help to the pony breeding societies whose pasture is being yearly eroded and fouled by holidaymakers. By all means let the Forestry Commission cash in on tourism; but let the Forest have the cash back in benefits.
My Lords, I raise this matter to-day because of the disappointment felt by many in the Forest that a genuine effort by the Commission to bridge the gap between itself and the local public seems to have got off on the wrong foot. Perhaps the Minister can now reconsider the whole matter not only with regard to the composition of the Panel but also as to exactly how the Panel is going to function most efficiently. At the moment I cannot but foresee the inevitability of a clash between the Panel and the Com-mission in the early days of its life. The question will arise: who will have the last word? Perhaps the Minister could reassure everybody by appointing himself as a final arbitrator.
I am sure that everyone in the Forest appreciates that without the Forestry Commissioners' devoted employees many aspects of the Forest life would be in a considerably worse state than they are at the moment. They feel, however, that, expert as the Forestry Commission are in growing trees, they are not perhaps the best people to initiate and implement policies to combat the leisure boom in order to retain the character of the Forest. There also seems to be the danger that the historical Verderers' Court, members of which are elected by democratic processes, is in danger of losing its identity unless it, too, is given more powers and finance to implement ideas on non-Forestry matters which will inevitably flow from the Panel and other interested parties. I am delighted to see that the noble Earl, Lord Malmesbury, will be speaking later. I am sure that we are all looking forward to hearing what he has to say. There is no doubt that there is a clear need for a separate department to be set up under the Forestry Commission, staffed with experts not in trees but in tourism.
As I have already said, I have raised this matter this afternoon to give the Government an opportunity to give some further background information about their intentions. Due to the fact that the original Press announcement came in the Recess, there has been two months of ever-growing gossip and mistrust in the Forest at a time when there is a great need for unity. There are, after all, five main interested parties: first, the commoners, with their ancient rights of pasturage; the Forestry Commission with their great responsibility for timber growing; the local residents, whose home it is; the tourists who come by the millions; and, last but not least, the naturalists, to whom the New Forest is a very precious area of research.
I welcome the decision on behalf of the Commission to set up the Panel, but urge them to delay no longer in explaining their long-term policy to the people of the New Forest. For unless they can gain the confidence of the Panel, and the Panel can be seen to be working for the interests of the Forest as a whole, the very existence of the Panel may only fan the flames of dissension rather than produce the harmony which the Forestry Commission and everyone else desire. Finally, my Lords, I hope that the Government will join me in appealing to all in the Forest for calm consideration of an idea which, in the long-term, can serve only to benefit the New Forest.
4.20 p.m.
THE EARL OF HUNTINGDON: My Lords, I think we are all grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, for having raised this question, especially those who live in or near the New Forest. I have had the privilege of living on the edge of it for quite a few years, and as a result I appreciate fully the tremendous heritage which we have in the New Forest, and the tremendous national asset which it is, from many points of view, and which we should be most reluctant to see decline or worsen.
As the noble Lord said, the chief responsibility for the New Forest lies in the Forestry Commission. I do not wish to say anything in criticism against the Commission: they have had plenty of that. In fact, I should like to praise the Commission on one ground: that they

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have done a very rare thing in that, having made mistakes, they have learned from them and altered their policy. That is a very encouraging sign, as it is a difficult thing to do.
The Commission have a difficult problem, because under the Act under which they were set up their main duty is that of growing timber for the use of the country, and doing so efficiently so as to make profits. At the same time, the Commission are bound to consider amenity and the scenic results of their work. The whole question is one of balance, how much is allowed to amenity and how much to hard-headed commercial growing of timber. It is there, I think, that criticism has arisen, with a certain amount of reason in that in the past too much attention has been given to the commercial side, to the profitability side, and amenity and the aesthetic appearance have been often disregarded. It is unfortunate that this has happened not only on the bare hills of Wales but, much worse, in the National Parks and, above all, in the New Forest, which is a unique area. My Lords, we want to see the ornamental woodlands about which we have heard preserved as much as possible and replanted with deciduous trees. Though they are profitable, none of us likes to see these barren areas of conifers under which nothing lives or grows and which, though not on the whole unsightly, are dull to look at, when we should have the beauties of the oaks and beeches and the real English hardwood trees.
Apart from the amenity grounds there are two other aspects that we should never forget. One is the wild life and the claims of the naturalist on the Forest. I think we are beginning to realise the importance of what is known as the balance of Nature by which the whole of the wild life, animal and vegetable, plays its part in our world. If we sacrifice that not only will the wild life lose out but we shall, too. This is one of the very important questions.
The second important point, one that is sometimes forgotten. is the great effect which the broad leaf trees have on the climate, not only in respect of rainfall, about which we have known for a long time, but also with regard to the purification of the atmosphere. This is something
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in which they play a big part, and surely it is one of the things that we in this country increasingly need. I should like to urge that in any future plans the Commission will consider replanting, and so far as possible preserving up to a certain age, the hardwood trees and that they should not be ruthless in going ahead with the cheaper and quicker-growing, and more profitable, conifers.
My Lords, there is one matter which I think indicates a certain shortage of Forestry Commission staff. One sees in parts of the Forest a tremendous overgrowth of ivy which has not been trimmed for years. This indicates a lack of facilities. Another thing (it is a little off the point but I cannot refrain from mentioning it) is the question of hedgerows. I was sorry that grants were given to farmers to destroy their hedges. Except to a very limited extent that is a dangerous thing to do, both from the wild life and from the climatic point of view, as well as in respect of its effect on appearance.
What I wanted chiefly to say this afternoon, however, is how much I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, about the influx of tourism in the New Forest. I presume that in the early days a few hundred visitors came every year. Now it is a question of millions, as we have been told. Someone told me that about half-a-million camping permits are issued every year, and the number of people who go through the Forest each year is enormous. I think it would be justifiable to predict that the numbers will go up and up. How are we to encourage people to enjoy the Forest without spoiling what they have come to see? This problem does not arise only with the New Forest: it arises constantly in respect of every National Park in this country, and indeed all over Europe. Some journalist writes up a wonderful place, describing it as isolated and urging people to come to see the natural beauty; and within two years large hotels are built, sites with "hot dog" stands and God-knows-what, so that the very thing the people have been encouraged to see has disappeared.
My Lords, we do not want to see the New Forest, which is such an asset, spoilt in any way or the natural life driven out; and for this reason I agree with the noble Lord. I think that the

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Forestry Commission ought to have some planning department that would deal with the question of tourism. I motor through the Forest constantly on fine week-ends during the summer, and wherever I go I see caravans. One is only too happy to see people enjoying the surroundings, but there is the problem of the resultant litter, and the difficult question of providing latrines, and things which may prove detrimental. I do not know about the Panel which has been set up. One hopes that it will be a sort of "sounding board" for local opinion, which is very upset about the whole matter of the Forest. Whether the Panel is too big, as has been suggested, or whether it could be formed in a different way I do not know; but I urge the Government to try to persuade the Commission to look into this problem of the inundation of the Forest by visitors, a problem which is going to get worse and worse and which may possibly completely spoil the Forest. If what we have said this afternoon causes a little thought this debate will have been well worth while.
4.30 p.m.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: My Lords, I much appreciate the Question put down by the noble Lord, Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, and I must quickly dcelare my interest as the Official Verderer of the New Forest. This Question seems to have turned itself almost into a detailed debate, but I shall try to stick more to the terms of the Question. I think that among the people of the New Forest there is a very strong feeling which comes from a great emotion and a great love for the Forest. There are so many interests in the Forest, starting with the commoners, who regard themselves as representing one of the oldest forms of farming in this country; and we must never forget that they are trying to earn their living from raising and grazing animals. They have had a hard time from the public, who regard it as their right to come to the Forest for recreation. This was all right until the advent of the motor car.
The point I wish to make is that I think the formation of this Panel is premature. The verderers, who like to work closely with the Forestry Commission, were never consulted about this large Panel, which I must confess astonishes me. We were consulted earlier in the year about a
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much smaller panel, and this seems to us much more like sense. Of the Court of Verderers, five are appointed and five are elected. The five elected verderers are elected by the commoners of the Forest, but many of the people who have common rights to elect a vorderer are residents and do not have animals out in the Forest, so that the elected verderers represent quite a large proportion of people who live in the Forest.
The Court was set up under the 1949 New Forest Act, so it is quite a modern body. Of the five appointed verderers, one is appointed by the Forestry Commission, another by the Minister of Agriculture, two by the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, one of whom is the amenity verderer appointed by the Countryside Commission and the last is the planning verderer, appointed by the local planning authority, which is the Hampshire County Council.
It astonishes me that the Forestry Commission, who should work closely with the verderers, as laid down by Statute, should not have consulted us. Naturally, I have been approached by a good many people most of whom say that this Panel is so large that it is really not a sounding board. Sir Dudley Forwood, who is listening now, will be a good Chairman, but he will have a very difficult task. I have written to him on this point and he has written back, agreeing with me.
As the noble Earl, Lord Huntingdon, has said, the Court of Verderers is a sounding board in the New Forest and the public are allowed to come and make their presentments. The Forestry Commission attend, so that they can hear, too, and the Commission deal with some of the presentments directly. I think-that it would be much wiser, if there is to be a Panel, to have a much smaller Panel. But I would advocate that the whole question of a Panel should be postponed. I have three reasons for saying that. First, as we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, the Minister is coming down to the Forest shortly. Arrangements are being made for him to meet many people with varied interests so that he will hear what they have to say. I am going to meet him and I have several suggestions to make to him, with which I will not

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bore your Lordships just now but which I think would help him and would probably take the heat out of this Panel question. And I would remind your Lordships that the New Forest is vested in the Minister of Agriculture and not in the Ministry of Agriculture—a point that is often forgotten. The Forestry Commission are his agents and they have certain powers which they can execute only with the approval of the verderers. I say all this because I think that it is important in a debate of this kind to remind your Lordships of what the machinery is.
My third reason for suggesting that the formation of a Panel should be postponed is that at the end of the month the New Forest Study is to be published. I have had a preview of some of it and it looks to me as though the Study will produce some good policies for the future running of the Forest. The Committee who have produced this Study consisted of a verderer, a representative of the Forestry Commission, a representative of the Nature Conservancy and professional planners. They were an able body, not too numerous; each member went off and did his own consultations— I think that is important—and then came together for joint discussions. I would, if I may, advise the Minister to postpone any decision about this large Panel until he has come down to the New Forest and until the New Forest Study has been produced.
4.37 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I think that this must be about the twentieth debate on the subject of the New Forest in which I have taken part. It is important that your Lordships should appreciate not only that the New Forest is a unique area but that the people in the Forest are immensely conscious of its uniqueness and are inclined to think that the rest of the world does not appreciate the nature of the New Forest and the problems of those who live in it, commoners and others. They have some justification for this belief. It has been my experience that every single Minister of Agriculture in turn has had to be educated on the subject of the New Forest. Sometimes it has been a painful experience. I remember that my old friend, Tom Williams, latterly
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Lord Williams of Barnburgh, introduced a New Forest Bill in 1949. He got the Cabinet to agree to put it in the programme because he considered that it was non-controversial and would go through without difficulty. It led to interminable discussions and heavy expenditure, and the final solution was due entirely to the wisdom of your Lordships, who came up with a happy solution to the problem of the relations between the Forestry Commission and the commoners and others.
I am just a little unhappy about this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, put the case very fairly. I was not surprised that he paid a good deal of attention to tourism, because he more than any other person is responsible for increasing the number of people who come to the New Forest. I do not know whether his seat is the first or the second in the list of great houses so far as the number of visitors is concerned. The reason I am unhappy—and I say this seriously to the noble Lord, Lord Denham, who is going to reply—is that although Lord Denham knows the New Forest no doubt he is unaware of the dark rumbles that are going on there. We are doing our best to inform him so that he can inform his right honourable friend. It is perhaps a little unfortunate that there is talk about a vendetta against the Deputy Surveyor. The truth of the matter, as my noble friend Lord Huntingdon made clear, is that there are strong feelings in the Forest and a real conflict of interests. For the same reason, I am bound to say that the position of the appointee for Chairman, Sir Dudley Forwood, has been made more difficult. I am a little doubtful whether in the present atmosphere he will be able to carry out his duties. Let me hasten to add that I associate myself with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Montagu. I have known Sir Dudley Forwood rather longer than has the noble Lord, in that I have known him for 57 of the 59 years of my life. He is a man of integrity who I am sure will do his utmost for the New Forest.
But, as the noble Earl, Lord Malmesbury, made clear, the fact is that this proposal is not going to work. The Minister will have to drink carefully about it. No doubt the people who live in the

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Forest are a suspicious lot. There are ancient enmities between the King's woodsmen and the Forestry Commission, who are dedicated to growing trees. Controversy has been going on certainly all our lives, and for much longer. There is no doubt that the present Deputy Surveyor is a highly able and very dedicated forester. But the interests do conflict. It is going to be difficult to resolve this matter unless a good deal more tact is shown. I do not think that we should attribute ill motives to the people concerned, but the fact is that feelings are running very high.
It is unfortunate how the composition of this Committee was announced. I am a little shocked to hear the noble Earl say that the verderers were not consulted. He is in a special position as the Official Verderer, and it would seem to me to be only common sense, in a situation so fraught with difficulty, that the noble Earl and others should be consulted. I apologise to noble Lords who may be wondering what war I am talking about, but those of us who live in or near the New Forest are very familiar with it. I think that the first rule is to consult.
What we have to do now is to suggest to the Minister how he should deal with the situation. I am certain that in its particular form the Panel is unsuitable as a consultative body: 56 people, ranging from the representatives of the New Forest Beagles (and I make no reflection on them: I am told that the master of the foxhounds was rather surprised to be invited to send a representative) to the 20 or 30 parish councils. This is not a suitable body. Whether it could be turned into a consultative body which could recommend people, I do not know; but I attach great importance to the visit of the Minister. It is clear to me that again he must take a hand.
I make no reflection on the Forestry Commission—my noble friend Lord Taylor of Gryfe is somebody whom we all deeply respect in your Lordships' House—but this is unusual. The more efficient the Deputy Surveyor is, the more, in a way, he is likely to run into trouble. And, of course, the Forestry Commission have their problems: they are under great pressure, because they are expected to increase their return. It is a very difficult issue. On the one hand, Mr. Mithen has his instructions; on the other hand, he
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has to do things which may cause difficulties locally. Somehow this problem has to be resolved.
Perhaps I may say to the noble Lord, Lord Denham (I do not think I have yet had an occasion to congratulate him on his position as a Lord in Waiting) that noble Lords on this side of the House are well aware of the difficulties that confront a Lord in Waiting replying to a debate when he is supplied with a brief which has not fully taken into account what has been said in the debate. While I would not suggest that the noble Lord should tear up his brief, I would ask him to say that he will report fully and personally to the Minister. He may have a job in getting the Minister to take this seriously. But I am glad that the Minister is following the undertaking which his predecessor, Mr. Cledwyn Hughes, gave to visit the New Forest. I hope that he will succeed in solving this problem, because at the moment feelings are running high. The New Forest Association will not at present co-operate in this Panel. It may well be that they can be persuaded to co-operate, but someone must iron these things out.
I hope therefore that in giving his reply —and again I appreciate the difficulties— the noble Lord will make clear that the further information that has been given in the course of this debate will be fully taken into account by the Minister, in consultation with the Forestry Commission. When I talk about educating Ministers of Agriculture, may I say that on occasions we have had to educate chairmen of the Forestry Commission on this. Noble Lords may think that we are a curious, specialised and egotistical lot, but if we are not to have a sort of civil war something must be done about it.
4.47 p.m.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition has explained to your Lordships, as probably you already knew, the great difficulty in answering an Unstarred Question, not only in that one has shot at one questions that one is not prepared for in one's brief, but also because almost invariably the Question on the Order Paper has already been answered about five times during the course of the debate by other speakers. In spite of these difficulties, however, I hope to be able to give an answer which, if it is not entirely satisfactory to your

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Lordships, may not be entirely unsatisfactory. I am aware that there has been a good deal of controversy about the Forestry Commission's plans for treating the ancient and ornamental woodlands of the New Forest in order to conserve them in accordance with their obligations under the special legislation for the New Forest. There has also been a good deal of criticism of the felling which the Commission have undertaken in the timber enclosures.
As your Lordships have heard, my right honourable friend will be visiting the New Forest shortly in order to assess the situation for himself, and it would therefore be wrong to come to any premature conclusions about the future management of the New Forest woodlands. But whatever that may be, there is a clear need for close consultation with the public and with various local interests in the Forest. It is for this reason that, with the consent of my right honourable friend, the Forestry Commission recently announced their intention of setting up a Consultative Panel—widely representative of local interests—with the following terms of reference:
"To consider and make known to the Forestry Commission local opinion on various factors which need to be taken into account in their management of the New Forest."
The Commission have invited all the principal organisations in the New Forest to nominate representatives. These organisations include the New Forest Association, the Commoners' Defence Association, the New Forest Pony and Cattle Breeders' Association, the Council for the Protection of Rural England, the Ramblers' Association and the Hampshire Field Club. The rural district councils have also been invited, and the Countryside Commission are being kept closely in touch.
LORD SHACKLETON: If I may interrupt the noble Lord, could he say whether the Countryside Commission were directly consulted on this? The Countryside Commission have played quite an important part in financing the Verderers, and I wonder whether they were directly consulted by the Forestry Commission on what was proposed.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I understand that the plan is that the Countryside Commission will be kept informed
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at all stages and will be kept in touch with regard to anything that the Panel advises. The views of the New Forest Verderers—who are given, as your Lord- ships know, great leadership by my noble friend Lord Malmesbury—are directly available to the Commission by virtue of their statutory relationship, and they have been invited to attend as observers. I am extremely sorry to hear that my noble friend feels that the Verderers have not been consulted as much as they should have been.
LORD SHACKLETON: He does not "feel"—they were not consulted at all.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, I understand that the Verderers were consulted in the early stages about the appointment of the Panel.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: Would your Lordships like me to clear up this point? We were consulted earlier in the year about this matter. We were thinking of something similar to the Consultative Panel before the war which had six members. It has not met since the war, because I understand that there is only one living member left. It was suggested that a Panel on similar lines should be formed. I think it was probably going to have wider duties and, therefore, that the numbers might be increased a little. Certainly I never visualised—nor did the Court—anything beyond ten. We are now approaching 50 or 60.
LORD DENHAM: There may be a certain amount of misunderstanding about exactly what was intended and what was not intended. I know that the Forestry Commission would be extremely upset if the Verderers felt that they have not been taken properly into consultation. I should like to stress here that the Forestry Commission are especially concerned to ensure that the existence of the Panel will not in any way prejudice the Verderers' statutory functions. I am aware that some organisations have criticised the Commission's proposal on the grounds that the size of the Panel will make it too unwieldy to function effectively. This has been mentioned several times during the course of the debate. There has also been criticism of the terms of reference; indeed, the right of the Commission to set up the Panel at all has been questioned.

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My Lords, I feel that these criticisms are premature. If local opinion feels that there has not been enough consultation about the Panel, I can only stress that the terms of reference are still open to discussion and suggest that the proper time and place for this discussion will be when the Panel meets for the first time. There will then be an opportunity for all the interests represented to put forward and exchange views. The membership of the Panel is, admittedly, wide and varied, but I feel that if this is a fault it is a fault on the right side. I am glad that my noble friend Lord Montagu recognises that it was proper that the Commission should appoint the Panel. I think it must be recognised that the Commission have a direct responsibility, under my right honourable friend, which they are entitled to fulfil to the best of their ability, as I think they have done on this occasion.
As your Lordships have heard, the Commission have invited Sir Dudley Forwood to serve as the Panel's independent Chairman. My noble friend has congratulated the Commission on his choice, and I am glad to say that Sir Dudley has been able to accept. The Panel will devise its own method of working. It is essential that it should represent the widest possible cross-section of interests, but for practical purposes I doubt whether it will do all its business in, as it were, plenary session. This, as several noble Lords have pointed out, would be very difficult owing to the size of the Panel. No doubt it will appoint within itself smaller working parties for different purposes. My right honourable friend has warmly approved the Commission's initiative in setting up this Panel and I think we all hope that it will be given a chance to show its value. I hope that any organisation which, in all sincerity, has not been able to support the Panel so far will reconsider its decision in the light of our assurances that our minds are not closed.
The view has been taken by some interests in the New Forest (and my noble friend Lord Malmesbury I think was referring to this) that a revival of the late Advisory Committee, with a much smaller membership, would have
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been preferable. This Committee has not met for many years, and even if its terms of reference, which were distinctly limited, were revised, it would lack the much wider representation that is necessary to-day in the light of the many and varied pressures which the Forest has to bear.
The problems of the New Forest are complex, and it is very much a question, in deciding how it should be managed, of striking a reasonable balance between a range of interests which tend quite often to be in apparent conflict with each other. A great deal of mutual understanding and tolerance is needed if the complementary needs of the commoners, of conservation, of recreation and of forestry are to be reconciled. The setting up of the Consultative Panel will be an important step forward in this direction. The Forestry Commission will certainly not close their minds to any acceptable changes in the Panel's constitution and terms of reference which might emerge in the light of experience of its working. But the important thing is that it should be given a fair chance to prove its worth.
Those of your Lordships who have taken part in this debate may feel that I have not been able to dispel your worries to a great extent this evening, but the chief value of a debate like this is not what I can tell your Lordships, but the experience, information and advice that will come from it and be available to my right honourable friend. I can assure your Lordships that, as the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition asked, my right honourable friend will study very carefully indeed the Report of this debate. It will be an appreciable time before the Panel meets. The mechanics of setting it up are by no means complete. Thus my right honourable friend will have every opportunity for reviewing, with the Forestry Commission, the constitution of the Panel.
My Lords, these problems may seem of a rather local and special nature, but they are only a reflection of the sort of problem which has often to be solved in the field of agriculture, forestry, amenity and conservation in the country at large; and I hope the spirit in which we set out to solve them in the New Forest will be a model for their solution elsewhere.

BRISTOL CORPORATION GENERAL POWERS BILL [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
  IMMIGRATION: POSITION OF OVERSEAS BRITISH SUBJECTS
  IMMIGRATION: POSITION OF OVERSEAS BRITISH SUBJECTS
  IMMIGRANTS' ACCOMMODATION
  IMMIGRANTS' ACCOMMODATION
  MOTORWAY SAFETY BARRIERS
  MOTORWAY SAFETY BARRIERS
  AVIATION FUELS AND SAFETY
  AVIATION FUELS AND SAFETY