Sitting of 25 February 1970

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
NEW WRIT
For South Ayrshire, in the room of Emrys Hughes, Esquire, deceased.—[Mr. Charles R. Morris.]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  PLYMOUTH AND SOUTH-WEST DEVON WATER BILL (By Order)
  Order for Second Reading read.
  To be read a Second time upon Wednesday, 11th March.

YORKSHIRE DERWENT WATER BILL (By Order)
  BRITISH WATERWAYS BILL (By Order)

    CUMBERLAND RIVER AUTHORITY BILL (By Order)
    Order for Second Reading read.
    To be read a Second time upon Tuesday next.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  BOARD OF TRADE

    Travel Agents (Walsh Committee's Report)
    Mr. Milneasked the President of the Board of Trade what talks have taken place between his Department and the Association of British Travel Agents arising from the Report of the Walsh Committee, a copy of which is in his possession; and if he will make a statement.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody): None, Sir, I understand that the association is considering the implementation of the committee's recommendations.
    Mr. Milne: Is my hon. Friend aware that in an industry with which the Board of Trade has so much contact, and with which it has had so many negotiations over the past few years, nothing has been done about this latest report? Is my hon. Friend also aware that, arising from this report, there is a growing need for some sort of consumer protection organisation, and that a study of the Walsh Report, which in itself is an excellent report, would repay the Department a great deal in the months ahead?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: I am happy to agree with my hon. Friend that the Walsh Report is a very interesting document. However, the A.B.T.A. itself wants to discuss the implications. It is aware of some of the existing difficulties. It is precisely because it is aware of its shortcomings in some fields that it is urgently considering the report with a view to putting as much of it as possible into operation.

    BAC3–11 Aircraft
    Mr. Onslowasked the President of the Board of Trade what representations he has received from the Chairman of British European Airways regarding the need for an early decision on the BAC3–11 project; and what reply he has sent.
    The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. Goronwy Roberts): The Chairman of B.E.A. keeps in close touch with us about future aircraft requirements. He knows that we are well seized of the need for an early decision once B.E.A. has completed its assessment of the BAC3–11 and alternative types of aircraft in the light of changes in manufacturers' specifications.
    Mr. Onslow: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. Can he confirm that his right hon. Friend the Minister of Technology is seized of the need for an early decision, and indeed knows that unless a decision is taken reasonably early there is no chance of getting it right?
    Mr. Roberts: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friend is seized of that need. As he indicates, the Minister of Technology has an interest in this matter. We, too, are concerned with B.E.A. in the evaluation of the right type of aircraft.
    Mr. Robert Howarth: Can my right hon. Friend assure us that B.E.A. will not buy American aircraft for this next round of re-equipment?
    Mr. Roberts: B.E.A.'s prime concern is to ensure that the plane which is chosen meets its needs as an airline. Her Majesty's Government have to take other considerations into account, and the one mentioned by my hon. Friend is of great importance.

    Civil Aviation Act, 1968 (Section 8)
    Mr. Onslowasked the President of the Board of Trade when he expects to make a further order under Section 8 of the Civil Aviation Act, 1968; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. James Johnsonasked the President of the Board of Trade when he will publish a further order designating, under Section 8 of the Civil Aviation Act, 1968, additional aerodromes at which adequate facilities for consultation must be provided.
    Mr. Fortescueasked the President of the Board of Trade when he proposes to make further orders under Section 8 of the Civil Aviation Act, 1968.
    Mr. Goronwy Roberts: A second Order was made on 16th February and becomes effective today. I will place a copy of the Order in the Library of the House.
    Mr. Onslow: Again I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. Will he take this opportunity to comment on the fact that at the airports in respect of which the previous Order was made, on more than one occasion local residents' associations have been denied representation on these committees? Will he confirm that the spirit of the legislation requires that the widest possible opportunity should be offered for all interested local parties to have their say?
    Mr. Roberts: I am glad to give that confirmation. As the hon. Gentleman
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    knows, I am particularly concerned to ensure that these consultative arrangements work effectively, and are seen to be fair to everybody concerned. If the hon. Gentleman, or anybody else, gives me details of default in this matter, I shall look into them personally.
    Mr. Fortescue: Does the fact that these Orders are being made mean that the Board of Trade has come any nearer to the preparation of a national airports plan, which is still badly needed?
    Mr. Roberts: That is another question.

    Trade Descriptions Act
    Mr. Molloyasked the President of the Board of Trade if he is satisfied with the working of the Trade Descriptions Act; and if he will make a statement.
    Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: Yes, Sir. I think there is widespread acceptance and observance of the principles of the Act. At the same time, the fact that 800 prosecutions have taken place in the first 14 months shows that the Act is being effectively enforced.
    Mr. Molloy: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply and I acknowledge that this Act has been welcomed by housewives and honest traders. Is she satisfied that the system involving local weights and measures authorities is functioning so that they are not hindered in enforcing the Act?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: I am happy to tell my hon. Friend that the job being done by the weights and measures authorities and inspectors is excellent. The whole House will join with me, I think, in congratulating them on their efforts to enforce this first attempt at effective means of protecting the consumer in this field, and telling them how grateful we are to them.
    Sir G. Nabarro: As the strongest possible supporter of the Statute, may I ask whether the hon. Lady recognises that a responsibility rests on her to warn the public when there are substances injurious to health contained in the products in a packet, and that she should therefore support the printing of health warnings on all packets of cigarettes?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: The hon. Member and I have this in common, that between

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    the two of us we shall do all we can to publicise the dangers of smoking. I am sure that one of us is bound to be heard.
    Mr. Ashtonasked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he will seek to amend the Trade Descriptions Act to compel restaurants which levy a service charge or a selective employment tax extra to publish this on their menus;
    (2) whether he will seek to amend the Trade Descriptions Act to make it an offence for traders to levy an extra charge for selective employment tax which more than recoups their costs for selective employment tax.
    Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: I do not think it would be advisable to amend the Trade Descriptions Act in these ways.
    Mr. Ashton: But does not my hon. Friend remember the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley (Mr. Mason) just after taking office that it was the best little Act ever introduced by a Labour Government? Should we not seek to remove the loopholes now becoming evident in it?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: I wholeheartedly approve of most of the statements made by my right hon. Friend, but in this instance I think we should have a little time to consider the Act and see whther an amendment of this kind is necessary now. It is irritating to buy a meal and be charged more for it than one was told beforehand, but the thing to do is to complain to the restaurateur.
    Sir E. Bullus: Would not it be more sensible and helpful to the traders to get ride of the selective employment tax, as the Tories intend to do next year?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: What fascinates me in discussion about S.E.T. is that we always hear that hon. Members opposite will do away with it but do not hear what they will put in its place.

    Companies (Donations to Political Funds)
    Mr. Marksasked the President of the Board of Trade what arrangements are made by his Department for details of the donations made by companies to political parties and other organisations to be made available to the public.
    The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Roy Mason): Information about a company's political contributions is given in the director's report. A copy of the report is filed with the Registrar of Companies and may be inspected by any member of the public on payment of a fee of 1s.
    Mr. Marks: But is my right hon. Friend aware that it need not be submitted to the annual meeting, and that, in any case, if it is, it is 10½ months before it is required to be available for inspection? Will he introduce legislation to shorten that period and give shareholders an opportunity to contract out of these contributions?
    Mr. Mason: I cannot give any assurance on the latter point, but my hon. Friend is right in saying that it may be l0½ months—it could be up to a year—before the public are informed. The special facilities are available for anyone to be able to inspect and challenge the company on political affiliations, if necessary.
    Sir W. Bromley-Davenport: If he does not already do so, could the right hon. Gentleman supply the same information with regard to the political levy on trade union funds and subscriptions from the co-operative societies?
    Mr. Mason: The hon. and gallant Member must recognise that the trade unions and co-operatives have always been open and have always revealed theirs. The trouble is that many companies have not done so.
    Mr. Wellbeloved: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many serious drinkers believe that the increase in the cost of the pint is partly due to the financial contributions made to the Tories by the brewers? Will he also confirm that the lacy gives protection to shareholders and company directors against intimidation by the Tory Party in respect of making financial contributions?
    Mr. Mason: On the first point, because it is a very serious comment, I will certainly draw it to the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Sir K. Joseph: Is the Minister aware that inertia and, perhaps, sometimes intimidation are far more influences in favour of trade union donations to the

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    Labour Party than of shareholders' subscriptions to the Conservative Party? Is he aware that shareholders have perfect freedom to dissociate themselves from any company which contributes to either party by selling their shares?
    Mr. Mason: Of course the latter point is true, weak though it is, but the right hon. Gentleman must recognise that the trade unions have always been free and have always revealed their contributions. The companies, by an Act, were forced to do so.

    South Africa (Exports)
    Mr. Biffenasked the President of the Board of Trade what is the value of United Kingdom exports to South Africa for the most recent six months available; and what is the percentage change with the corresponding period for the preceding year.
    Mr. Mason: £154 million in the six months ended 31st January, 1970, an increase of 19 per cent.
    Mr. Biffen: Would the Minister join with me in expressing the hope that this significant, growing and mutually advantageous trade shall not be imperilled by demonstrations of a loutish and ill-mannerly character against visiting sports teams from South Africa?
    Mr. Mason: I sincerely hope not.
    Mr. Winnick: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many British people oppose the evil system which operates in South Africa and will not be stopped from demonstrating because of our continued trade with South Africa?
    Mr. Mason: I am not objecting to the demonstrations, as long as they keep within law and order.

    Warsaw Pact Countries (Food Imports)
    Mr. Biffenasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the value of United Kingdom imports of temperate foodstuffs from Warsaw Pact countries in 1969 and 1968; and what is the expected figure for the current year.
    Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: About £38 million in both 1969 and 1968, covering food and live animals of a kind which are produced commercially in this
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    country. I prefer not to venture a forecast for 1970.
    Mr. Biffen: Is the hon. Lady aware that these are commodities the prices of which are politically determined by the Communist bloc countries, rather than commercially determined? Will she therefore bear in mind the very disturbing effect which their importation can have on the prices of other agricultural producers?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: I am afraid that I do not know what the hon. Member means by that. I can assure him that we have means in our own legislation, if there is any question of a price being artificially fixed, to assess what we think an accurate price should be. He is well aware of that and of the fact that the Board of Trade watches the situation closely.
    Mr. Maclennan: But does my hon. Friend not recognise that imports of Romanian sheep products have recently had a seriously damaging effect on the market of our own domestic producers, and that she has the responsibility for phasing these imports?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: The Board of Trade is very well aware of its responsibilities in this field. My hon. Friend might like to know that the imports from Romania, particularly, have gone from £16 million in 1967 to £12 million in 1968 and down to £10 million in 1969. So he must keep these things in proportion.
    Mr. Ridley: Is the hon. Lady aware that both the timings and the prices of many of these imports cause grave disruption of the whole market for agricultural produce? Will she assure us that she consults fully with the Ministry of Agriculture before sanctioning this sort of trade?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: Hon. Members opposite can rest assured that our consultation processes with the Ministry of Agriculture are very well used and that we have a great deal of concern for the interests of the farmers of this country, but it helps no one if the constant line by some hon. Gentlemen opposite is that it is the Board of Trade's international trading policies which are damaging agriculture, when they know very well, on the facts, that this is not so.

    Strawberries (Imports)
    Mr. Wigginasked the President of the Board of Trade what are the present tariff arangements for imported strawberries.
    Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: The full and E.F.T.A. rates of import duty on fresh strawberries are 37s. 4d. per cwt. from 1st to 9th June, 56s. from 10th June to 31st July, and 10 per cent. for the rest of the year. Strawberries from the Commonwealth preference area are duty-free.
    Mr. Wiggin: Is the hon. Lady aware of the very great damage to the early strawberry market which is being caused by air-freighted imports at the height of their season? Would she look into this?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: It would be in everybody's interests, of course, if British growers could get their fruit on the market as early as possible, but in many cases they have the advantage of being something which the consumer is interested in buying. Of course, their prices are better than those for French imported strawberries.

    Commonwealth Preference Area
    Sir R. Russellasked the President of the Board of Trade what further steps he is taking to encourage more trade between Great Britain and other members of the Commonwealth preference area.
    Mr. Mason: We are doing all we can to encourage exports to Commonwealth preference area markets, and most imports from this area are free of tariffs and other restrictions. We have already agreed to assist participation in 34 trade fairs and nine stores promotions in the Commonwealth preference area this year, and 45 B.N.E.C.-supported missions have been approved or are projected.
    Sir R. Russell: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that Answer. Would he agree that our trade with members of the Commonwealth preference area has not increased in recent years as much as it has increased with other parts of the world? Will he do everything possible to increase our trade with the Commonwealth preference area?
    Mr. Mason: Yes, Sir. It is true that the trend has been for our percentage of
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    total trade with the Commonwealth Preference Area to fall. This is partially understandable since there has been a drift away from the sterling area towards the more industrialised countries, particularly in America and Europe, which can take our sophisticated goods.
    Mr. Henig: Has my right hon. Friend caused any recent study to be made of the relationship between the degree of preference given to our goods by various Commonwealth countries and the trends in our exports to those countries; and what conclusions have been reached?
    Mr. Mason: As there has not been such a study, I cannot give my hon. Friend any conclusions.

    Distributive Trades (Stocks)
    Mr. J. H. Osbornasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the value of the physical increase in the stocks of the distributive trades at 1963 prices in 1964; and what was the comparable figure for 1969.
    Mr. Hall-Davisasked the President of the Board of Trade what percentage of the gross domestic product was represented by stock accumulation of the distributive trades in 1964; and what was the comparable figure for 1969.
    Mr. Mason: The increase in 1964 was £141 million; in the first three quarters of 1969 there was a reduction of £24 million, seasonally adjusted. Information for the fourth quarter of 1969 is not yet available. The increase in 1964 represented 0·5 per cent. of gross domestic product; in the first three quarters of 1969 the figure was minus 0·1 per cent.
    Mr. Osborn: The answer is a matter of major concern. Since this trend has been entirely due to the credit squeeze, is there not a danger, if stocks are reduced to too low a level, that retailers will not have enough stocks in the shops and elsewhere to attract customers? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is a vicious circle which has reached a dangerous stage?
    Mr. Mason: I rebut absolutely and completely the hon. Gentleman's final comment because it is quite untrue. Stocks held by the distributive trades are very high by past standards, especially

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    in relation to the present economic activity of the country.
    Mr. Hall-Davis: What would the right hon. Gentleman consider to be the import content stock accumulation in the distributive trades?
    Mr. Mason: I could not give a reply offhand, but I am prepared to look into that matter.
    Sir K. Joseph: Is it not a fact that when hon. Gentlemen opposite took office in 1964 they found that we had left the granaries full, whereas when they leave office shortly the granaries will not be full?
    Mr. Mason: The right hon. Gentleman is wrong on both counts. We were nearly bankrupt when we came to power, but now we are economically healthy. Stocks in 1964 do not bear comparison with stocks in 1969. The economic activity of the nation is such that the stocks of the distributive trades are very high. The stocks of the manufacturing trades are slightly less.
    Mr. Blakerasked the President of the Board of Trade why, in each of the first three quarters of 1969, the value of stocks held by the distributive trades fell.
    Mr. Mason: In fact, the value increased in each quarter. Over the three quarters the volume is estimated to have been a little lower, by some £25 million at 1963 prices. But this was very small in relation to the total stocks held—over £2,500 million at the same prices. Many factors influence stockholding by these trades, but by past standards the level in the first quarter was high in relation to activity.
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. Is it not a fact that according to Standing Orders Questions must be based on fact? If the hon. Gentleman puts down something that is not factually true, is not the Question out of order?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman who puts down a Question is responsible for what he believes to be facts.
    Mr. Blaker: Is the President of the Board of Trade aware that in the answer he has just given he has contradicted an answer he gave earlier, in which he pointed out that in the first three quarters
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    of 1969 at constant prices—and that was the basis of my Question, as I informed his Department this morning—stock accumulation was a minus quantity? Is the right hon. Gentleman saying, judging from his earlier answer, that he is satisfied with this situation?
    Mr. Mason: I am aware that the hon. Gentleman rang my office this morning. I thought that the reply was absolutely right. I gather that he phoned to make sure that my answer was based on 1963 prices, and it was based on them. His Question speaks of the value of stocks, and asks why they fell. I replied by telling him that the value increased in each quarter.

    Electrical and Non-Electrical Machinery (Imports)
    Mr. J. H. Osbornasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the annual average increase in the volume and value, respectively, of imports of electrical and non-electrical machinery for the years 1965 to 1969.
    Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: The value of these imports increased at an annual rate of about 18 per cent. between 1965 and 1969; volume figures are not available but prices probably account for about one-third of the increase.
    Mr. Osborn: This is an incredible state of affairs. Is the hon. Lady satisfied with this trend? Does she believe that there is enough replacement from home sources of manufacture?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: Obviously, if the Government were satisfied we would not have made the efforts that we have made to suggest possible lines of import substitution. That is what we have been doing. It is true that this is a trend which appears to be rather worrying on the surface, but I do not think that one should underestimate the difficulties that have undoubtedly been caused as a result of the increasing specialisation of machinery, so that there are pieces of equipment that are not available in this country but are needed to improve our productivity.
    Mr. Ridley: While welcoming an increase in trade in advanced manufactures, may I ask the hon. Lady to say why, before he became responsible for the matter, the Prime Minister used to rant

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    and rave about the level of imports of machinery?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: I have never noticed the Prime Minister either ranting or raving. He is a man with a fine appreciation of detailed facts and statistics, If the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends had been nearly as efficient as we have been in dealing with the problems of the machine tool industry, we would not have found ourselves in the situation which we faced when we came to power.

    Manufactures (Exports)
    Mr. Hall-Davisasked the President of the Board of Trade what percentage of world trade in visible items was represented by British visible exports in 1969; and what was the comparable percentage in 1968.
    Mr. Mason: The United Kingdom's share of exports of manufactures by the main manufacturing countries was 11 per cent. in the first threequarters of 1969 and in the year 1968.
    Mr. Hall-Davis: Does not this compare unfavourably with the figure for 1966, which was 12·9 per cent.?
    Mr. Mason: No, Sir. It reveals that as world trade grew—last year it grew at a particularly rapid rate—we managed to maintain our share of that trade, whereas previously when there was expansion in world trade we generally went down. The latest trend is most interesting and encouraging.
    Mr. Henig: In view of the increasing industrialisation of many parts of the world which were not previously industrialised, is not this figure of Britain's share of world trade the most meaningless figure that is compiled?
    Mr. Mason: These are the figures that hon. Members want to know about, and I am giving them. As nations become more industrialised and as other nations go from a developing to a developed status, our share of the trade in industrialised goods and sophisticated manufactures should increase.
    Mr. Speedasked the President of the Board of Trade what was, from information available to him from international sources, the increase in the value
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    of world trade in dollar terms in 1969; and how this compares with the increase in the value of British exports in dollar terms in the same year.
    Mr. Blakerasked the President of the Board of Trade why Great Britain's exports expressed in dollar terms grew at a lower rate in 1969 than did world trade; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Mason: Exports of manufactures by main manufacturing countries increased by 17 per cent, between the first threequarters of 1968 and the same period of 1969; for the United Kingdom the increase was 15 per cent. Over the first threequarters of 1969, for which figures are available, our exports grew only slightly less fast than did world trade in manufactures. In the past, our share has tended to fall sharply when world trade has grown rapidly. The virtual maintenance of our share has been very encouraging.
    Mr. Speed: Does my right hon. Friend share the concern of the Governor of the Bank of England that wage inflation could jeopardise our exports this year?
    Mr. Mason: This matter is very much in the forefront of the Government's mind. If wage increases go on at too high and too rapid a rate, then that will obviously be reflected in our costs, which, in turn, will impair our competitiveness.
    Mr. Blaker: As the right hon. Gentleman said that he wishes to give figures which hon. Members want and, therefore, which are useful, may I ask him to remember that when talking about increased exports it would be useful to give figures, certainly in respect of the period since devaluation, not in sterling terms but more in dollar terms or by volume; and will he ensure that his colleagues make clear what terms they are using?
    Mr. Mason: I remind the hon. Gentleman that the question asked for this information in dollar terms. I have done that. I hope that hon. Members who take an interest in these matters will not fall into the dollar trap, as it were, of asking for figures in dollar terms because since devaluation was designed to increase the value of our exports, initially there was a sharp fall in our world share of exports measured in dollar terms.
    Mr. Laneasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the percentage increase in British exports in dollar terms in a five-year period to the latest convenient date; and what, from information available to him from international sources, were the comparable figures for the rest of the world, excluding the United Kingdom and the Soviet bloc,and for the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development member countries apart from the United Kingdom respectively.
    Mr. Mason: Between the 12 months ended September, 1964 and the 12 months ended September, 1969, 35 per cent., 60 per cent. and 70 per cent., respectively.
    Mr. Lane: In the very competitive months ahead, what further steps will the Government take to lessen Government-imposed burdens on exporters and help exporters to keep down their prices?
    Mr. Mason: The allegation about Government-imposed burdens on exports is baseless. We are paying six times more money in assisting British exports and helping British industry than we were in 1964.
    Mr. Snow: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the workers in industries which are dealing with exports predominantly will greatly resent the constant pinpricks and derogation of their efforts by the Opposition?
    Mr. Mason: I absolutely agree. What is inspiring questions from the Opposition today is their terrible fear that the export-led boom is beginning to work.

    Departmental Staff
    Mr. Speedasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the number of staff employed by his Department on the latest available date.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cookeasked the President of the Board of Trade what is now the number of staff employed by his Department.
    Mr. Mason: The number of non-industrial staff employed by the Board of Trade on 1st February, 1970, the latest available date, was 16,483.
    Mr. Speed: Would the right hon. Gentleman say clearly whether the reduc-
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    tion of one-ninth in his Department's staff last October has been above or below the comparable reduction in his Department's responsibilities?
    Mr. Mason: There has been an increase in responsibility for Ministers at the Board of Trade since the reduction in staff.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Has the reduction in the Board of Trade's staff exactly equalled the increase in the Ministry of Technology's staff, since the latter took over so much of the former's responsibilities?
    Mr. Mason: Some of the staff went to the Department of Employment and Productivity as well as to the Ministry of Technology.
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: Can my right hon. Friend give an idea of the amount of increase in exports that has occurred in any period as a result of the excellent work done by the Board of Trade?
    Mr. Mason: Not offhand. I should, perhaps, warn the House that, while I have given some figures, hon. Members may not have recognized—they should have appreciated this—that there has been such an increase since the Board of Trade underwent a change in October of last year, mainly because we have strengthened the export division of the Department. This has helped to increase exports.
    Mr. Ridley: Can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that the discharge of the functions of monopolies and mergers, regional policy and the sponsorship of private industry was performed by only 2,000 people before the reorganisation?
    Mr. Mason: I would not say that. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to pose questions about the activities of those who are concerned with these matters, he must address them to the right Ministers.

    Beef and Fat Lamb (Exports)
    Mr. Maclennanasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will take steps to increase the exports of beef and fat lamb to European Free Trade Association countries and the European Economic Community, respectively.
    Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: Exports of beef and mutton and lamb in 1968 were

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    6,300 tons and in 1969 14,700 tons, most of them to the E.E.C.
    Mr. Maclennan: I welcome this increase. Is my hon. Friend aware that much could be done and that there is a widespread impression in the farming community that the Board of Trade does not assist in the promotion of exports, of livestock in particular, as it does in the export of manufactured goods?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: The Board of Trade provides specialised services to assist those who wish to export. We have constantly been changing and improving our techniques. We do everything possible to assist anyone in any market in which he is capable of competing. The figures that I have just given in no way bear out my hon. Friend's suggestion.
    Mr. Peter Mills: Is the hon. Lady aware that many farmers are mystified at the Board of Trade's attitude, particularly as it has stopped the export of pig meat to the Continent and at the same time has not allowed fertilisers to enter Britain cheaper than they can be produced here? The farming community is baffled.
    Mrs. Dunwoody: It must be easy to baffle the farming community. Hon. Members opposite are always asking us to take anti-dumping action to protect their own products, but when we take it in respect of a product such as fertilisers they are the first to accuse us of double-dealing. The Board of Trade consults the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and takes into account all the interests of the farming community. If one quarter of the energy which is put into pushing the protection of one aspect here were put into pushing the protection of the consumer, the House would get a much better picture of what is happening.

    Overseas Marketing Corporation
    Mr. Laneasked the President of the Board of Trade when he will quantify the returns on the £275,000 so far drawn by the Overseas Marketing Corporation.
    Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: I refer the hon. Member to my right hon. Friend's reply to the hon. Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne) on 26th November, 1969.—[Vol. 792, c. 393.]
    Mr. Lane: As that answer referred to the corporation as an experimental initiative and as several hundreds of thousands of £s in public money are already involved, when will the House have an opportunity to assess and discuss the results of the experiment?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: My hon. Friend explained at that time that this was a private limited company. The difficulty has been that it has only just begun to see the results of all the efforts which have been made. It was created to assist manufacturers who might not have expertise in marketing their products abroad. I think that in the future we shall be surprised at how efficient it has been.
    Mr. Ridley: Although the corporation is a private company, as the public has put in the money why should not the public be allowed to see the accounts? Will the hon. Lady take the point that where public money is put into a company, accounts should be published for all to see?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: If the hon. Gentleman addresses himself to the company, he will get precisely the information he wants.

    Heathrow Airport
    Mr. Barnesasked the President of the Board of Trade what proportion of aircraft approaching London Airport in a westerly direction, during the latest 12-month period for which figures are available, were instructed by Air Traffic Control to join the three degree glide slope at a distance from touchdown which necessitated them flying over Chiswick at a height of between 1,500 and 2,000 feet.
    Mr. Goronwy Roberts: Aircraft joining the glide path before passing over Chiswick are required not to descend below 2,000 ft. until established on it. This general rule would be varied by Air Traffic Control only exceptionally when necessary to maintain height separation, and no count is kept of such occurrences.
    Mr. Barnes: Why has the impression been given in the past that no aircraft join the glide slope at a height of less than 2,000 ft? It now becomes clear from correspondence which a constituent of mine has had with the Board of Trade

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    that during busy periods aircraft fly over Chiswick at 1,500 ft. before joining the glide slope? Surely it is the number of times that this happens that needs to be monitored rather than an adherence to the three degree glide slope.
    Mr. Roberts: The monitoring takes within it that section of operations. My hon. Friend has in part answered his own question—that separation of aircraft is necessary at peak periods. This is when these exceptional departures from the general rule take place.
    Mr. Corfieldasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is satisfied that landing aids appropriate to the Boeing 747 are now available at Heathrow Airport; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Goronwy Roberts: Yes, Sir. Boeing 747 aircraft use the internationally-approved automatic landing system and this is already installed at Heathrow. Some modification may prove necessary to the visual approach slope indicator near the runway threshold, depending on the outcome of current discussions within the International Civil Aviation Organisation.
    Mr. Corfield: Does that mean that currently the 747 cannot land under precisely the same conditions as other aircraft now in operation? To what extent are the traffic arrangements affected by the alleged increase in turbulence of the 747 on separation?
    Mr. Roberts: There is another Question dealing with turbulence. Turbulence affects the position only minimally. Boeing 747 aircraft have already landed without difficulty. Some automatic landings have already been made. The question of visual installation is now being examined. There may need to be an international agreement to change some of the arrangements.

    Soviet Territory (Air Traffic Rights)
    Mr. Corfieldasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will now make a statement on the current negotiations with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics for flying rights over Soviet territory in connection with the British Overseas Airways Corporation's London-Tokyo service.
    Mr. Goronwy Roberts: British and Soviet aeronautical officials met in Moscow in December and reached agreement on the arrangements to be made for an exchange of traffic rights under which B.O.A.C. would be permitted to operate twice-weekly services between London and Tokyo via Moscow and over Siberia, starting during Spring 1970. These recommendations have since been put into appropriate form for an intergovernmental agreement. It is hoped very shortly to hand the text to the Soviet Government. I hope it can be signed soon as the necessary arrangements made accordingly between airlines.
    Mr. Corfield: What do the Russians get in exchange? Is there to be a pooling arrangement? Is there to be any arrangement by which the Russians get rights on the North Atlantic to embark and disembark passengers at Heathrow?
    Mr. Roberts: There will be a pooling arrangement. Further discussion is needed on this question. The arrangement provides that the Soviet airline Aeroflot may operate services at a limited frequency across the Atlantic via London with full rights to New York.

    Aircraft Noise
    Mr. David Howellasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will now take steps to set up a committee of inquiry into the control of aircraft noise.
    Mr. Mason: No, sir. The proposed Advisory Council on Noise announced by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 11th December last will doubtless take an early opportunity to consider the problem generally.
    Mr. Howell: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that there seems to be an increasingly confused division of responsibilities on the question of aircraft noise between himself and the Minister of Technology, who now comes into it through the Concorde, and the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning, who also has an interest because of pollution? Is there not a growing case for a separate agency to represent and protect citizens' rights forthrightly and openly?
    Mr. Mason: I do not think that there is any confusion. My right hon. Friend

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    the Minister of Technology naturally has an interest at this stage, because the Concorde has not yet come into service; it is in its production stage and the question of the operation of the aircraft and whether it goes supersonic comes within his realm of activity.
    We in Britain have taken a keen interest in trying to control aircraft noise and gave the lead by convening the first international conference on aircraft noise in Britain in 1966. This question is now under international study. We hope that in four or five years' time quieter engines from the design stage will be produced and, consequently, quieter aircraft.
    Mr. Howie: Does my right hon. Friend agree that aircraft noise is much more inconvenient at night? Does he recall that some municipal airport operators have approached him with a view to trying to obtain agreement to limit night flying by commercial operators? Has he anything further to say on that?
    Mr. Mason: Not offhand. We limit the numbers of movements at night, and we control the perceived noise decibel range at night. We try to keep the aircraft fewer in number and quieter during the night.

    Thailand (Minister's Visit)
    Mr. Fletcher-Cookeasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a statement about his recent official visit to Thailand.
    Mr. Mason: In Thailand, there is good will towards Britain and British products, and the market presents many opportunities. Although the present balance of trade is in our favour, I would like to see many more businessmen visiting Thailand, and I hope my visit will do something to encourage the flow of business missions and increased trade in both directions.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: While I congratulate the President of the Board of Trade on his visit, did he not find that the opportunities would be greater still if British industry and Thai industry got together in partnership? Does not that involve permission to export a certain amount of capital investment to set up joint trading organisations to this end?
    Mr. Mason: I certainly came across the request for joint ventures, and I encouraged it. I have addressed the B.N.E.C. Asian Committee since I returned on the joint ventures I had in mind. There is no reason why, with British managerial experience, technical equipment and know-how allied with the raw materials and labour in the country concerned, there could not be joint ventures on that basis.
    Sir K. Joseph: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the very tough standards, the criterion standards, governing the export of capital for investment are not interfering in any way with business opportunities in Thailand?
    Mr. Mason: It is not only in Thailand that concern is expressed, wherever I go, people would like to see more British investment, in many instances to offset Japanese investment that is going in to South-East Asian countries. We are not stopping overseas investment; we are regulating it. In 1966, 1967 and 1968 overseas direct investment was at least £928 million, an increase of at least 15 per cent. over the previous three years.

    Copyright (Stockholm Protocol)
    Mr. Gregoryasked the President of the Board of Trade if he will make a further statement on Her Majesty's Government's policy towards the Stockholm Protocol for the benefit of developing countries which was added to the Berne Copyright Convention in 1967.
    Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: We remain opposed to this Protocol. However, we are participating in an internationally-agreed programme of work which aims at finding a solution to international copyright problems acceptable to both developed and developing countries.
    Mr. Gregory: These are important matters for developing countries. When might we have a result from these efforts?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: There is a work programme which envisages drafting meetings in May and September of this year and a diplomatic conference to revise the two major international copyright conventions in 1971. I think that this is the most practical means by which we can try to find an answer to the problem.

    Inventions (International Patent Schemes)
    Mr. Gregoryasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps are being taken to make it easier for British inventors to obtain protection for their inventions abroad.
    Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody: We are actively participating in the preparation of two far-reaching international schemes to this end: one for a world-wide patent co-operation treaty, and the other for a European patent convention. The first is likely to be finalised at a conference in Washington in May of this year. The second has reached the stage where a preliminary draft will be published very soon and will be discussed with interested international non-governmental organisations in Luxembourg in April of this year.
    Mr. Gregory: Are they alternative schemes, or could both become operative?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: There is a general agreement that they are compatible with and complementary to each other.
    Sir H. Legge-Bourke: Whilst I welcome the statement the hon. Lady made in her main answer, would she consider consulting the Institute of Patentees and Inventors, to which the Ministry of Technology has recently given a grant?
    Mrs. Dunwoody: We shall certainly consult all the interested bodies before any action is taken.

    Aviation (Statistical Information)
    Mr. Forresterasked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he is taking to improve the published statistical information on civil aviation.
    Mr. Goronwy Roberts: Two new Business Monitors give figures of the number of passengers, analysed by routes, on international and domestic services. I hope to obtain and publish fuller financial accounts for the industry and to publish further information on freight traffic.
    Mr. Forrester: When can we expect the financial statistics to be published?
    Mr. Roberts: I could not give a date. Forms have been sent out to the airlines
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    asking for financial data for 1968. When the replies are received we shall consult the industry as to the proper form in which we shall publish them.
    Mr. Corfield: Will the Minister bear in mind the utmost importance of having really up-to-date financial information from the civil airlines made available to the public almost as promptly as it is available to the various authorities?
    Mr. Roberts: I am very glad that the hon. Member mentioned the question of the timeliness of publication. We are asking for information about 1968. I am not satisfied with this. However, it is not very easy to bring forward an examination of this sort, involving detailed figures, beyond 12 months before the date of publication.

    European Free Trade Association (Exports)
    Mr. Farrasked the President of the Board of Trade how British exports to the European Free Trade Association in 1969 compared with 1968.
    Mr. Mason: They increased by 22 per cent. in value.
    Mr. Farr: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, but can he explain why the trade of Britain and her E.F.T.A. partners in 1968 was so bad and why Britain was the only country in E.F.T.A. which did not increase its mutual export trade?
    Mr. Mason: I see no reason why the hon. Gentleman should question one year in the total of our partnership with other E.F.T.A. countries. Our total exports rose by 14 per cent. in 1969 in comparison with a rise in exports to E.F.T.A. of 22 per cent. We have done quite well there. Our export performances in the individual E.F.T.A. countries varied from a 14 per cent. increase in Norway to over 30 per cent. in Switzerland and Austria. Why should we quibble about that?
    Mr. Eddie Griffithsasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is satisfied with the development of British exports to the European Free Trade Association during the past year; and what plans he has for promoting such exports in the future.
    Mr. Mason: Yes Sir; the growth of our exports to E.F.T.A. in 1969 was more than 50 per cent. greater than that of our exports as a whole. We shall be mounting an extensive programme of promotional activities in E.F.T.A. countries this year, notably a trade drive in Finland and three shopping weeks in Sweden. I have recently visited both Finland and Norway to see these important markets at first hand, and I hope to visit Sweden in April.
    Mr. Griffiths: Is my right hon. Friend taking steps to congratulate the people concerned on this excellent performance? Is he satisfied with the development of trade with E.F.T.A. countries for the future?
    Mr. Mason: We are satisfied with the trade developing in E.F.T.A. I think that this is a particularly notable performance by British exporters.
    Sir K. Joseph: Before going in for so much complacency, will the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge that it is the combination of a record world trade boom plus stagnation at home plus devaluation that is helping British industry to export so well?
    Mr. Mason: Devaluation undoubtedly is helping but we should praise the British exporters for grabbing the opportunity it has given them. It is becoming rather sickeningly obvious that right hon. and hon. Members opposite are afraid that Britain is now able to stand economically on her own feet.

    Commonwealth (Exports)
    Mr. Farrasked the President of the Board of Trade how British exports to the Commonwealth in 1969 compared with 1968.
    Mr. Mason: They increased by 11 per cent. in value.
    Mr. Farr: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, but will he bear in mind that, despite our negotiations with the E.E.C., our Commonwealth trade is of vital importance and that it is essential to see that we do not neglect that market in future?
    Mr. Mason: It would not be wise for a world trading nation like ourselves
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    to neglect any part of the world, especially such a large market as the Commonwealth.
    Mr. Henig: Should it not be put on record that in the last few years this country has done extremely well in exporting to all parts of the world? Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of us are sick and tired of the constant carping by the jealous hon. Members opposite at the magnitude of this achievement?
    Mr. Mason: My hon. Friend is quite right. Success in exporting and a brighter image on the face of the Government are causing concern on the images and faces of hon. Members opposite.
    Mr. Doughty: While Commonwealth trade may be very important to us, does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that to some Commonwealth nations it is vital? I hope that their interests will not be sacrificed to ours.
    Mr. Mason: The hon. and learned Gentleman is right; no doubt he has New Zealand in mind.

    Overseas Trade Fairs
    Mr. Eddie Griffithsasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is satisfied that the present arrangements for assisting British industry at overseas trade fairs are adequate and meet the needs of the exporters; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Mason: Yes, Sir. In 1965, before the present arrangements were introduced, official support was given to only 85 events in 26 countries. Since then official support has been increased from £870,000 a year to more than £4 millions a year. In 1969 my Department supported 5,700 firms taking part in 263 events in 50 countries overseas.
    Mr. Griffiths: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is there any evidence that certain manufacturers are not using these excellent facilities to develop export potential?
    Mr. Mason: Not that I am particularly aware of. I think that most of them are seizing the opportunities which the Government and the Board of Trade export services in particular are giving them.
    Mr. Ford: Will my right hon. Friend look urgently at the question of making extra lines of credit available and make an announcement soon concerning the Buenos Aires Fair in November?
    Mr. Mason: The "B.A. '70" trade drive has been announced, and the fair is going ahead. I hope that it will prove very successful.
    Sir J. Rodgers: Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that these overseas fairs and shopping weeks are as effective as they might be? Will he consider setting up a committee to look into their effectiveness?
    Mr. Mason: I have already looked into the question of to what extent British fairs or weeks are effective. I think that we have to use them more carefully and rather more rarely in future and manage them with greater care. I thought that British Week in Tokyo was a classic example of what can be planned and can succeed.

    Noise Nuisance
    Mr. Rankinasked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in future legislation on noise nuisance, he will take account of the fact that 54 per cent. of a representative sample of people suffer annoyance from the noise coming from motor-cycles and lorries, 13 per cent. from aircraft flying and 3 per cent. from aircraft landing.
    Mr. Goronwy Roberts: Yes, Sir. But my responsibility in this field is related to aircraft noise, on which I shall continue to take all practicable measures to reduce disturbance.
    Mr. Rankin: Will my right hon. Friend take note of these figures, because they indicate that a great deal of the condemnation of aircraft as being noisy creatures is not verified by the statistics available? Will he, in association with his right hon. Friend concerned in this matter, take these figures into account when the Government come to deal seriously with the problem of noise?
    Mr. Roberts: These figures do not minimise the seriousness of the impact of aircraft noise on very large numbers of people in many areas of the country. I am bound to take note of the seriousness of that matter.
    Mr. Hordern: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this representative sample would have been more impressive if it had been taken in the vicinity of Gatwick or Heathrow? Is not the root cause of the problem the fact that the same Minister is responsible for both civil aviation and aircraft noise? Does not the right hon. Gentleman also agree that the essential factor in solving the problem is to separate these two functions?
    Mr. Roberts: They are effectively separated already in the sense that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport and I have special responsibilities for them. What I stress is the serious nature of aircraft noise as a form of environmental pollution, even though the statistics may show that in percentage terms it is below that of other forms of noise.

    Aircraft (Plastic Materials)
    Mr. Fortescueasked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will investigate the desirability of banning the use of certain types of plastic fitting in aircraft on the grounds that they are a safety risk.
    Mr. Goronwy Roberts: I am advised by the Air Registration Board that its requirements ensure an acceptable level of safety in relation to the use of plastic materials in aircraft: the requirements are constantly being reviewed in the light of experience and research.
    Mr. Fortescue: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the destruction of the B.E.A. Trident aircraft as a result of arson in July last year was greatly hastened by the imflammability of the plastic fittings on board? What action has he taken as a result of that incident?
    Mr. Roberts: I do not think that the course of events was quite as the hon. Gentleman has put it. I would refer him to the fairly extensive statement I made about this in the recent debate on the Consolidated Fund. Both B.E.A. and the British Airports Authority have taken action as a result of that serious incident and have drawn useful lessons from their inquiries.

    Vehicle Manufactures (Exports)
    Sir G. Nabarroasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the total value of vehicles' exports of all

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    kinds, including spares, in 1969; what estimate he has made for 1970; what percentage of visible exports is now represented by vehicle industries' exports; what measures of help to improve export performance he is now contemplating; and whether he will make a statement on motor exports generally.
    Mr. Mason: Exports of aircraft, rail, motor and other vehicles (including engines and parts) totalled £1,369 million, or 19 per cent. of total exports. I prefer not to venture a forecast for 1970. The many and widely used forms of Government assistance are available to vehicle manufacturers as they are to other exporters.

    Agricultural Exports
    Sir G. Nabarroasked the President of the Board of Trade what was the value of agricultural exports in 1969; what special arrangements will he made for agricultural exhibits and agricultural machinery at the proposed National Exhibition Centre in Birmingham; and what steps he is taking to increase agricultural exports in 1970–71.
    Mr. Mason: The proposed National Exhibition Centre in Birmingham will have full facilities for the exhibition of agricultural produce and machinery and supplies, the exports of which in 1969 were valued at £207 million and £192 million respectively. In addition to the many and widely-used forms of Government assistance to exporters, agricultural exporters should benefit from the grants made specifically to assist in this field to the British Agricultural Export Council.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Will the right hon. Gentleman apply himself particularly to agricultural machinery exports, which valued a record of £154 million in 1969, of which £120 million comprised tractors, in which we lead the world? As this machinery requires a great deal of space for exhibition purposes, will he ensure that his Department allots several acres on the Birmingham site to allow adequate demonstrations for all overseas customers?
    Mr. Mason: I will certainly keep in mind what the hon. Gentleman says when the arrangements for the proposed site become firmer.

ARMED FORCES (PAY)
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Denis Healey): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement on the pay of the Armed Forces.
The Government have received the National Board for Prices and Incomes Third Report on Forces Pay and have accepted the board's recommendations.
Last year, the board recommended the creation of a comprehensive salary structure which would not differentiate between single and married Service men. This "military salary" would include compensation for the withdrawal of items which had previously been provided free in lieu of salary. It was also proposed that the Services should, because of the special conditions of their employment, receive an additional emolument. This was to be known as the X-factor. Payment of the military salary and the X-factor was deferred until new rates of pay could be determined in the light of a job evaluation exercise. This has now been completed.
Job evaluation and the evaluation of the X-factor will increase pay by £75 million in a full year. This represents an increase of 15 per cent. over the present value of the Services' total real emoluments, that is to say, the pay and allowances which they receive in cash and the value of food and accommodation which they receive in kind. It is important to recognize—as does the board—that these recommendations involve some substantial changes in the relative positions of the forces and civilian pay. Job evaluation has shown that, by comparison with the civilian sector, the Armed Forces have been underpaid. To bring up forces' pay to levels comparable with civilian employment cannot, as the board made plain, be a justification for pay increases elsewhere.
The Defence budget cost of ending differentiation between single and married men's rates of pay is £52 million in a full year, after allowing for the recovery of charges for food and accommodation from single men. Single men will not only have to pay charges, but also to pay for them out of income on which they will have paid £11 million in tax. So the real benefit to single men

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and cost to the Exchequer, in fact, amounts to £41 million rather than £52 million. The establishment of parity between single and married men will at last rectify an anomaly in the forces pay structure which has no parallel in other occupations.
A number of improvements in allowances will also be introduced. These cost about £5½ million in a full year; £75 million for job evaluation and the X-factor; £41 million to give single men parity with married men; and £51 million for allowances add up to a real increased in Service emoluments totalling £121½ million a year. The total cost to Defence Votes will be greater—£135½million because the increases will, in fact, be sufficient to compensate the Services for the £11 million in tax to which I have already referred, and also for a similar tax element in increases in rents recommended by the board for married quarters and hirings—another £3 million.
The board, in its report, has suggested that, in the light of the size of the total increases, the Government should consider paying some of the larger ones by instalments, particularly the once-for-all increase required to bring the emoluments of single men up to married rates. We have accordingly agreed that, while the increases recommended for married men on the basis of job evaluation and the board's assessment of the X-factor should be paid in full with effect from 1st April this year, the increases for single men and women will be paid in two instalments.
With effect from 1st April this year, single men and women, like married men, will get the full increases based on job evaluation and the X-factor. They will also get an increase sufficient to pay their food and accommodation charges after the payment of tax. Finally, they will get a first instalment, on average about a quarter, of the total increase of £41 million to end differentiation between themselves and married men. The balance of this £41 million—about £31 million—for single men and women will he paid from 1st April, 1971. The detailed pay scales which will apply both to single and married personnel are in the board's report. Tables of the adjustments for single men and women until 1st April, 1971, are also available in the Vote Office.
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I believe that the application of job evaluation and the radical revision of Service pay that the standing reference to the N.B.P.I. has made possible provide a basis for the military salary which can be supported with confidence on grounds both of efficiency and fairness.
Mr. Rippon: While thanking the Secretary of State for his Statement, for which we have been waiting too long, may I say that I am sure the House will want an opportunity of studying the detailed effect of the proposals before making any final comment. No doubt we shall have an opportunity, if necessary, of debating this matter before long.
The right hon. Gentleman says that the proposals represent an increase of 15 per cent. over the present value of the Services' total real emoluments. Will he say what would have been granted on the basis of the Grigg formula had that been applied in the same way?
Will the right hon. Gentleman also tell the House why this announcement about Service pay was not in time to be included in the Defence budget? Was it perhaps that he wanted to put that figure a little lower than it really is? Will he say what Supplementary Estimates he expects to have to introduce, and what effect they will have on the Defence budget for 1970–71, both in total and as a percentage of the gross national product?
Mr. Healey: I regret that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is following the sour-puss tradition of some of his hon. Friends in seeking to denigrate the most revolutionary improvement in this century in forces' pay and conditions.
Let me answer each of his questions in turn. First, as to the delay, I think that this was worth waiting for, because the total increase in forces' pay is four times the increase which the forces could have expected this year under the Grigg formula; and three-quarters of that increase is to be paid on 1st April this year, the other quarter next year.
The value of the total increase of Service pay and emoluments this year will be about 18 per cent. A further 7 per cent. will follow next year, making a total increase of 25 per cent. staged over two years. The reason why these details were not given in the Defence

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budget, as I explained last June, is that the amount of work necessary to do the job evaluation exercise and then convert the scales into detailed rates and computer-programme them made it impossible to complete the total exercise earlier. This is why they were not put in the Defence Estimates, but the Defence Estimates White Paper—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] If hon. Gentlemen will listen for a moment, they will see that their chagrin is even less justified than it appears.
In the Defence White Paper, last week, I explained that, although we had already put in £30 million for increased pay, there was a shortfall of £68 million on the Defence budget target which was published in the December Green Paper on public expenditure, and we hoped to take up this increase in Service pay. The net result of all this is that we shall be able to remain within the Defence budget target when we present our Supplementary Estimate, and that the total expenditure necessary on defence will be as stated in the White Paper, about 5½ per cent. of the gross national product, l½ per cent. less, or a cut of one-quarter, in the Estimates of 1964 presented by the Conservative Administration at that time.
Mr. Shinwell: How does the additional expenditure compare with the savings effected by the withdrawal of forces east of Suez?
Mr. Healey: I hope to deal in some detail with the question of quantities in the defence debate very shortly. However, the total saving in 1972–73, on the Conservative costings which I inherited, will be £1,200 million.
Mr. James Davidson: Unlike the Official Opposition, we should like to give this statement on increased Services pay a very warm welcome. We must hope that it will give a real stimulus to recruiting. Since these increased rates are apparently based on a true job valuation and there is, in addition, the mysterious X-factor, why is it necessary to compensate the Services for the extra tax which they will have to pay?
Mr. Healey: I made it clear a year ago that to be able to offer to a potential recruit at the recruiting office pay which
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he could compare directly with the pay which he might be offered at the factory gate next door, we would in future require Servicemen to pay the charges for food and accommodation presently provided free, and we have added to the increases for parity and for job evaluation and the X-factor a sum sufficient, after the payment of tax, to cover all the charges for food and accommodation previously provided free of charge.
May I thank the hon. Gentleman for demonstrating that there is one party on the benches opposite which puts the welfare of the Services before party prejudice.
Mr. Roebuck: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his announcement will have a most welcome effect in stimulating recruitment? However, is he further aware that we shall get in sufficient numbers the sort of recruits we need only if he takes steps to dismantle the antiquated class structure of the Services? Will he bear in mind the great necessity of many more men in the ranks being commissioned?
Mr. Healey: As my hon. Friends have often pointed out, the number of promotions to officer rank from the ranks in the Services is considerably higher than it is in British business in analogous situations. But I know that my hon. Friend will be glad to see from the N.B.P.I. Report that the archaic anomaly of batman service is being withdrawn.
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Does the right hon. Gentleman feel that the short-fall of 13,000 recruits shown in his White Paper, published last Thursday, will be made up as a result of these increased incentives? He has a large backlog to make up and recruiting is falling further and further behind. Surely the contentment of existing Servicemen is the best recruiting factor. Does he really think that we on this side of the House will accept this excuse that he was not able to include this £100 million of extra expenditure in the White Paper which he published five days ago? We must suspect that these figures have been "fiddled", as every other figure had been "fiddled".
Mr. Healey: I am not responsible for the hon. Gentleman's suspicious mind. If he had read the White Paper, he would have seen that I specifically said in the

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fourth and fifth paragraphs of Chapter 1 that the shortfall of £68 million on the public expenditure target which was fixed and announced to the House last December would be taken up by improvements in forces' pay which were yet to be announced.
There was a 20 per cent. increase in recruitment last year compared with 1968–69. Re-engagement has been steady. It increased last year in two of the three Services very substantially, proving that the satisfaction of the men in the Services with their life is substantial. But there is no doubt that the satisfaction of those now serving will be substantially increased by an 18 per cent. increase in pay this year. An increase three times as great as any given under the outmoded Conservative system will be regarded by those in the forces as a good thing, no matter how much right hon. and hon. Members opposite try to pretend that it is not.
Mr. Dalyell: Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of us who have sat through Service debates for several years would like to offer him our unqualified congratulations on his facing up to a number of thorny problems which have dogged us for many years, such as single and married parity?
Mr. Healey: I should like to make, I hope in an unpartisan sense, two comments. First, there is no doubt that in the modern age, to determine the rate for the job and then deny it to single men, which has been the practice under many Administrations for many years, is absurd and an anomaly which has long needed correcting.
Secondly, it is clear from the job evaluation exercises that the Services have been seriously underpaid in recent years. I would not blame the Conservative Administration for this, because I believe that the reason is that in the last 20 years the degree of skill, responsibility and versatility required of Servicemen has increased a good deal faster than it has increased in civilian occupations.
However, the House should be in no doubt, having read the N.B.P.I. Report, that these increases are fully justified, particularly as they arise as a result not of bargaining against the threat of strikes between employers and trade unions, but
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of an objective process of job evaluation by impartial persons.
Mr. Ridsdale: How does the White Paper affect the pay of British forces serving with the United Nations in Cyprus? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a British Army captain is paid £5 while his Swedish driver is paid £10? The situation is equally bad among other ranks of the British forces serving with the United Nations. As comparative rates with other countries have deteriorated very badly since devaluation and because of our poor economic condition, would the right hon. Gentleman look into the scandalous pay of British forces serving with the United Nations?
Mr. Healey: I remember raising this anomaly with the Conservative Administration of six years ago. Having had to deal with the problem as Secretary of State, I do not think that we would be justified in paying British Servicemen completely different rates of pay according to where, in particular, they were serving. But there is no doubt that the very substantial pay increases arising from the new military salary will do a good deal to reduce the anomaly.
Mr. Frank Allaun: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us on this side of the House think it absolutely right that Servicemen should receive a decent rate of pay, even if the cost is £125 million a year but that this greatly strengthens the argument for drastic cuts in other aspects of arms expenditure?
Mr. Healey: For what it is worth, I can assure my hon. Friend that one reason why we are able to pay three-quarters of the increase this year is that I have managed to make further savings in other aspects of defence to accommodate these very massive pay increases.
Mr. Ramsden: Is the Secretary of State aware that it is desirable that the real value of this increase should be appreciated in the interests of recruiting? Would he clear up some doubts about the figures? In December, the Minister of Defence for Administration said that the increase comparable with Grigg would be 25 per cent. The right hon. Gentleman has today announced a 15 per cent. increase. The Services had 10½ per cent. over the last two years in the form of

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interim increases. This looks like level pegging. If I am wrong, it is desirable that the right hon. Gentleman should correct me.
Mr. Healey: May I say, in no partisan spirit, that I hope that the Government will have the support of the Opposition in seeking to present these increases in their proper light.
The increase which the forces could have expected this year under the Grigg system is about £30 million. The increase which they will get is £90 million, and single men next year will get a further increase of £31 million which they would not have expected to get at all under the Grigg system. So the total increase which the Services are getting is four times as great as they could have expected under Grigg, and three-quarters of it is being paid this year.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Roy Mason. Statement.

CIVIL AIRLINES (SECURITY)
The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Roy Mason): The successive acts of violent interference with civil aviation—hijacking, attacks on aircraft on the ground and on ground facilities, and sabotage—in various parts of the world and from different motives have deepened the gravity of this international problem.
The nature of civil aviation makes these essentially international problems, which can be tackled effectively only by concerted international action. Her Majesty's Government have consistently supported and played their full rôle in such international action.
The main centre for international action has been the International Civil Aviation Organisation. The United Kingdom was one of the first countries to ratify the Tokyo convention on crimes in aircraft, and is seeking adherences to it by other States. The United Kingdom has played a full part in preparing the proposed new draft international convention against hijacking, which it is hoped will be put to a full diplomatic conference this year.
The United Kingdom supported, and has been active in, the work of the com-
1208
mittee of I.C.A.O., specially set up, on unlawful interference with international civil aviation and its facilities.
The Swiss Government yesterday asked I.C.A.O. to call a conference on the issue of safety, and the United Kingom member of the I.C.A.O. Council has been instructed to give full support to this Swiss proposal, so as to get an urgent meeting of Governments in the most useful form.
An emergency meeting of European civil aviation administrations has also been arranged to begin on 3rd March, in which the United Kingdom will take part at senior level.
In this country, all practical measures are being taken by the British airlines and airport authorities, in close liaison with the police and Government services concerned, to extend and tighten security safeguards applied to aircraft, passengers, baggage and cargo. Nevertheless, with the volume of movement through the world's airports and on international airlines, there can be no absolute guarantee against violence.
I explained to the House on Monday the temporary precautions which B.O.A.C. and B.E.A. had taken, affecting cargo traffic, while they took stock of the security situation. This was a matter of their primary responsibility for the safety of their passengers and crew.
The airlines have vigorously pursued the improvement of security. In the case of B.E.A., it is not due to send another flight to Israel until Thursday. It is well advanced with its security measures, which are being discussed with the staff. It then hopes to be open again to accept cargo and letters.
B.O.A.C. has similarly reviewed and improved security arrangements. It has been discussing these with its staff, including the aircrew concerned; and it then also hopes to be open again to receive cargo.
The interruption to flight handling services for aircraft of a number of foreign airlines at Heathrow by B.O.A.C. staff action has now, I understand, ended, and normal handling has been resumed.
Mr. Maudling: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are grateful for his statement? I am sure that we are all agreed that the airlines are right to place the safety of passengers and air crews

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in the front of everything else. However, this appears to go far beyond a mere matter of airline policy. It is a major international foreign policy issue. What is involved is not merely these hideous incidents on the airlines, but the use of terrorism against innocent people as part of an international conflict.
Are the right hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friend satisfied that I.C.A.O. is the right body to deal with this? Am I not right in saying that some countries which may be harbouring terrorist organisations are not members, and should not the Government, through the Foreign Secretary, pursue this very major matter of international policy more directly with the countries which may be involved?
Mr. Mason: I agree partially with the right hon. Gentleman, but we differ on what is the right forum. The International Civil Aviation Organisation is really the best forum. Its members include very nearly all the countries to and from which airlines operate. If it wanted to take international action, it could very seriously affect any nation which was acting contrary to its major resolutions, especially on special facilities, over-flying rights and special handling facilities at airports in its member countries.
Mr. John Mendelson: While welcoming the decision to respond to one of the requests made by the Swiss Government, have Her Majesty's Government also had their attention drawn to the further Swiss proposal that joint political action should be taken against those Governments who harbour terrorists and allow the active preparation of these murderous acts on their soil? Would not that be action not for the airline companies, but for the Governments to take?
Mr. Mason: But it is initially for the meeting of the European civil aviation administrations on 3rd March and I.C.A.O. to consider how best they can do it and then to make recommendations to the Governments to take any further political action which is required.
Mr. Lubbock: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is no good saying that, following a conference of the European civil aviation administrations and a meeting of I.C.A.O. summoned at the request of the Swiss Government, action will be taken against a nation which
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behaves contrary to its resolution if the source of threats is illegal terrorist organisations being harboured in those countries? What penalties will be exacted from those nations which give support and comfort to these barbarous criminals?
Mr. Mason: As regards harbouring people, whether they be terrorists or hijackers, the convention being laid down by I.C.A.O. on hijacking could prove effective, and there is no reason why it should not be studied within I.C.A.O. to find out how best to deal with what may be illegal terrorists.
So far, it has not been possible to establish the cause or fix responsibility for the Swiss explosion. If the explosion is proved to be an act of sabotage, it is a diabolical act of calculated mass murder, and we should, as we are doing through I.C.A.O., take all possible steps to render that sort of action ineffective.
Dr. Miller: Will my right hon. Friend impress upon my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary that he should take a leaf out of the book of the Swiss Government in respect of that Government's clamping down severely on people coming from Arab countries into Switzerland? Does not he think that a situation like this would produce much better results than merely coming to this House and mouthing platitudes?
Mr. Mason: If I accepted that suggestion, the problem is that if it was an act of sabotage in an attempt to blackmail, it has succeeded. If all aircraft ceased operating through the Middle East, which is used by many as a vantage point for the world, it would render useless most airlines.
Mr. Goodhart: While appreciating that the airlines have an overriding responsibility for the safety of their passengers and crew, will the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge that any unilateral reduction in services to Israel will merely encourage terrorists to redouble their activities?
Mr. Mason: I agree in great part with what the hon. Gentleman says. What we have been intent upon doing is to make the effort ineffective by holding back cargo and mail. Passengers have travelled to Israel just as they did before the weekend. B.E.A. and B.O.A.C. passenger services are operating normally. They are

1211
merely holding back cargo. Many other airlines are operating on the same basis. On its flights from Heathrow, El Al is also holding back cargo for 24 hours.
Mr. Howarth: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there have been reports that certain visiting Middle East airliners are carrying armed guards? Is there any proof in that, and are these men allowed to disembark from aircraft flying into Heathrow carrying these arms?
Mr. Mason: That has not been brought to my attention. I am not aware of that.
Miss Quennell: Notwithstanding the I.C.A.O. meeting, cannot Her Majesty's Government press those Arab Governments who may be harbouring these bands to compensate the families of British victims? British lives have been lost as a result of the activities of these groups, and in one case the family of one of my constituents has been affected.
Mr. Mason: I am sympathetic to the hon. Lady's point of view, but so far as this tragic Swiss incident is concerned we must establish the cause and who was responsible. It may be that no Arab State is responsible.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS (NOTICE)
Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: On a point of order. I seek your protection, Mr. Speaker, and possibly a reference to the Select Committee on Procedure.
The notices of important Ministerial statements are being put up in the Members' Lobby later and later. Today, there was no notice up until nearly 2 o'clock
1212
of two very important statements, while the B.B.C. was broadcasting announcements of them. So that back benchers on both sides can have proper notice of important statements, could we not revert to the original practice of having them up by noon each day?
Mr. Speaker: I am advised that the practice is that they are put up at 2 o'clock. Whether they are received early or not, they are put up in the Lobby at that time. There is a reason for this. It may be quite late in the morning or early forenoon that a Minister decides to make a statement. Nothing unusual has happened today. As for "The World at One", I am not responsible for it.
The Lord President of the Council and the Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Fred Peart): I think that the hon. Member for Hendon, North (Sir Ian Orr-Ewing) has made a point of substance. I will consider it.
Mr. Speaker: I am grateful.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS (NOTICE)

  BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR FRIDAY, 13TH MARCH
  The following Members were successful in the Ballot:

  Mr. Roy Roebuck.

  Mr. Norman Atkinson.

  Mr. Sydney Bidwell.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)
  Resolved,
  That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock.—[The Prime Minister.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  SUPPLY
  [14TH ALLOTTED DAY],—considered.

  BRITAIN AND THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES (WHITE PAPER)
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [24th February]:
  That this House takes note of the White Paper on Britain and the European Communities (Command Paper No. 4289)—[Mr. M. Stewart].
  Question again proposed.
  Mr. Speaker: Before the debate begins, may I inform the House that, when the general debate begins, no fewer than 40 right hon. and hon. Gentlemen, including nine Privy Councillors—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Order—have indicated their desire to speak. Yesterday, I was able to call 22 right hon. and hon. Gentlemen, because speeches were reasonably brief.
  4.3 p.m.
  Mr. James Scott-Hopkins: I fully support what you have said, Mr. Speaker, my speech today will be the briefest that I have ever made in the House. All hon. Members are waiting to hear from my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and everyone else who wants to speak, but it is also the tradition of the House that a back bencher who has the Floor when the debate is adjourned the previous day should be able to continue for a very short time when the debate is resumed. I hope to exercise this right, but definitely only for a short while.
  Just before we adjourned last night I wanted to talk about the effects of the agricultural side of this issue on our application to join the Common Market. After the speech of the Foreign Secretary yesterday, I became more confused than I had been as to whether or not it was advantageous and whether or not the Government wanted to negotiate. I think that three points are important here.
  First, before the negotiations are entered into, or during them, I hope that some of the surpluses existing in the
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  Market will be eliminated. For us to join even after negotiations with these still in being will make things very difficult. There are two ways of doing this. One is by adopting the Mansholt plan and by bringing about a reduction of the level of intervention prices. These are excessively high and have encouraged over-production. I would have thought that they could reasonably be reduced. By bringing down the price levels of the Six this will also reduce the level of agricultural activity. These lower prices would still mean that a great response was possible by our own agriculture.—[Interruption.] That is the most important point [Interruption.]
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: On a point of order. Is the rumble of conversation an attempt to deprive a back bencher of his right to continue in the debate, Mr. Speaker?
  Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Baronet. He is quite right: there should be no rumble of conversation.
  Mr. Scott-Hopkins: My second point concerns the ability of our agriculture to take up the slack of our home production and thereby to lessen imports into this country. This is an important point which must be borne in mind. At present, we are importing about £950 million-worth of food which can be produced on our own farms. I see no reason why we should not raise the level of our meat production to about 95 per cent. of home consumption and that of our dairy produce to about 60 per cent.
  But this cannot be done quickly. It needs time and money. If these negotiations are to start in the summer of this year, it is important that the Government should implement as quickly as possible their intention to expand agriculture, so that, when the negotiations are complete, the industry will be able to take up this slack and to save us a large proportion of our imports. I believe that this can be done and that our farmers would welcome this and would be able to meet the challenge. No one is more efficient than they are.
  Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on both sides have doubted whether there is room for expansion at home if we joined the Common Market, because the E.E.C. levels of production are up to about 90

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  per cent. But it is only in four products that they are over 100 per cent.—wheat, pigmeat and butter and cheese. Otherwise, they are not up to anything like self-sufficiency. We have a long way to go to satisfy ourselves and get to the highest level of production in this country, but this can and should be done.
  My third point is the cost to the housewife. If my two other points are taken into account, namely, if the amount of our imports is reduced by a considerable expansion of home agriculture, and at the same time the price levels in the E.E.C. are reduced, to eliminate the circumstances which I mentioned—these are two vital factors which must be borne in mind at the negotiations—it is possible that the housewife's bill, although large, will be greatly reduced. It might even be below the 18 per cent. bottom figure given in the White Paper.
  At the same time, it is possible that the amount which the average family spends on its food, 26 per cent., as given in the Family Expenditure Survey, could be increased by about 1 or 2 per cent. If that happened, as well as a slight switch of consumption habits to alternative and cheaper foods, such as from butter to margarine, and cheaper cuts of meat, I believe that the actual amount spread over three years which the housewife would have to bear would not be intolerable.
  We must calculate how much the cost of these factors will be. The agricultural response will be at the higher level, as shown in Table 8 of the White Paper. I believe that the consumption will be marginally changed. If this is done, and accepting that there will be a rise in the cost to the housewife, we must calculate how high this should go before wage demands become excessive and price our industry out of the Market. That is the negotiating level to which the Government, whoever they are at the time, should go.
  This affects the contributions to the agricultural fund. The right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) was not correct yesterday, as his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster explained by referring to Table 9 and the subsequent paragraphs, that after 1971 the actual percentage increase or decrease of the contribution to the fund
  1216
  is fixed to a limited amount of 1, 1½ or 2 per cent. over a period up to 1975. This is an important point when trying to assess the figure and it was wrong to alarm the public, which the right hon. Gentleman and some of his hon. Friends did.
  I believe that in the medium and long term it will be advantageous to our agricultural industry to join the Common Market. I do not believe that it will be too bad for the housewife over a period of years. I believe that, ignoring entirely the beneficial dynamic effects which may happen from the Market's impact on British industry, it is worth while entering into the negotiations with a will. If the price and the conditions that I have outlined are accepted, it will be worth while this country's joining the Common Market.
  4.11 p.m.
  Mr. Edward Heath: It has already clearly emerged from the debate that although the Motion is to take note of the White Paper it is impossible to debate European policy except as a whole. I hope that that is a view which the Foreign Secretary and the Government will share.
  I fear that the members of the public who have been looking for enlightenment on European policy may be more confused after the debate than they were before. Perhaps the responsibility which has rested on all of us has not been entirely satisfactorily discharged over the past few years, because we have overlooked the fact that the great debates which took place in 1960 and 1963, while negotiations were going on, and, to a lesser degree, in 1967, have passed by a whole generation of people who have never heard the issues argued out in the same way as they were argued at the beginning of the last decade.
  I cannot help feeling that underlying our discussion of the economic aspects are deeper matters of international politics and, indeed, of international sovereignty, and that these have coloured many of the attitudes expressed about the economic factors which we have been discussing.
  I should like to make my position quite clear. I think that both the House and the country know where I stand. My position has been known since I made

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  my maiden speech in the House in June, 1950, through the negotiations of 1960 to 1963, and it is where I still stand today.
  I want to bring about a wider European unity. For this, I have consistently worked. I believe in it. I believe in closer international co-operation, because I am an internationalist. I want to see more of this co-operation brought about. Moreover, I do not believe that we can have a prosperous and peaceful world unless there is closer co-operation between countries in both the political and the economic fields. It is already happening with success in many parts of the world. It is already happening in Europe in both the Common Market and E.F.T.A. Where it is not yet happening—for example, in the Indian sub-continent—it is obviously disadvantageous and, indeed, damaging to the countries in that part of the world.
  Today, there is a young generation, not only in this country but right across Europe and, indeed, across North America and many other countries, which looks to those in a position of responsibility to break down the barriers which their forefathers created. Man created the barriers. They look to men today to break them down, so they look to us to make a start in our own continent. It was the Europeans, the products of our own continent, who created the barriers in the other continents of the world—in Africa, in Asia. In Europe today there is the opportunity of breaking down those barriers in the relations not only between Europeans, but between Europe and the countries of Africa, Asia and the West Indies. This is why, as an internationalist, I feel so deeply about working for a wider Europe and European Community.
  I believe in this policy, perhaps even more so because I am a patriot. I know that Britain can contribute to this movement for a wider unity in our own continent because of our history, our parliamentary institutions, our traditions and our skills, and because other people recognise that we have this contribution to make.
  I want future generations in Britain to have these opportunities open to them. I want future generations in Europe to have these opportunities for prosperity and influence in the world outside. But
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  this can only be brought about—we have certainly recognised it since the first Resolution of this House in 1961 authorising us to negotiate in Europe—by arrangements which are beneficial both to the old and to the new members of the Economic Community. Britain would not be justified, nor would any other applicant, in accepting arrangements—and the Conservative Party would not accept arrangements—which mean, overall, that we cannot benefit together with the other members of an enlarged Community. That, surely, must be absolutely fundamental.
  But neither do I believe that the Six members should or would agree to any penal arrangements. Although the Six might for a time benefit because of inequitable payments across the exchanges, it would mean the movement of real resources from this country to the member countries of the Six and, although it might benefit them in the short term, they would be landed with a permanent dependent on their hands. This cannot be to their benefit ultimately. They would not want it. Nor would they accept it. That, therefore, seems to be the basic fact of the situation in this negotiation.
  The extreme position set out in the White Paper is presumably completely unacceptable to Her Majesty's Government, and certainly to us. But the White Paper says that it cannot happen. We may indeed wonder at those who go to such lengths to produce an unacceptable position and then to prove that it is quite impossible. That has been the outcome of the White Paper.
  The arrangements for the enlarged Community must be such as to benefit all its members. To achieve this, as I am sure the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster will agree, is not a one-way movement. It is a process to which both present and possible future members have a contribution to make, and without a contribution from both sides it will not be possible.
  So far, the emphasis has been perhaps too much on what will happen if we cannot create this unity and be part of it. The Foreign Secretary was absolutely right, and it was quite proper of him, to draw attention to this yesterday. It would be foolish for all of us to ignore the lessons of history. The impact of one

  1219
  great Power, as the Community will become, alone on the mainland of Europe alongside us, not today perhaps, as we have thought of it in the past in a military sense, as a direct threat to our security, but its importance to us in relation to other groupings—for example, the Eastern bloc—must be of vital importance, and we would wish to be in it. There is also its importance to our security, now that the position of the United States is changing, and its dispositions will change with it.
  On my last visit to Washington, nearly a year ago, I felt for the first time that there was in the United States a weariness of the spirit, of which we in Europe would be wise to take account, based on a feeling that for 25 years they have borne a great part of the burden of the defence of Western Europe, that we shelter under their nuclear umbrella, that they have been involved in a major war in the Pacific which has torn their country apart, that they have immense problems in their cities and in their race relations.
  It is perhaps natural that they should say, "Can we not devote more of our resources to our own problems for our own country and let others perhaps take a larger share for themselves?" It behoves us to work out together a rational reapportionment of resources and the relationship in this way. I believe that it can be done without in any way weakening the position of the West as a whole.
  The Community's power in economic negotiations has already been demonstrated in the Kennedy Round. These are all negative aspects. We live with them today. We can go on living with them in the future, if we have to, as they develop. But it is to the opportunities that we should look when thinking of the European policy as a whole, opportunities which are political, social and economic, opportunities in working out the future of this major grouping in Europe, its future relationship with the third world and with the developing world.
  The failure of U.N.C.T.A.D. in Delhi pointed sufficiently clearly to a need for Europe as a whole to be able to take a leading position in the relations with
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  the third world, in helping to work out a new relationship of this grouping across the Atlantic in the Atlantic partnership, in helping to guide the relationship of this new grouping with the Eastern bloc which will be of such immense importance for the whole future of world peace. These are political aspects to which we gave priority in 1961. They appeared first in Mr. Macmillan's speech and in my own statement in Paris.
  There are those, including right hon. and hon. Members in the House, who disagree with that concept of a new rôle for Britain, and I respect their views. Some hon. Members opposite, including the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), believe that it is better that we as a country should go it alone and that we can exercise equal influence. Surely the last few years have shown that this is no longer the case? [Interruption.] There are some who take this view, including some of my right hon. and hon. Friends. They would argue that the lack of influence over the past few years has been due to particular Government policies. That may be a contributory factor, but does not comprise the whole of the factors about the influence of a single country in the modern world today. I respect their disagreement, but I believe that we have to play a part with others if it is possible to do so.
  There are some of my right hon. and hon. Friends who say that this would only be effective politically if it is in a federal or confederal system. There are others who are opposed to any such development and who say that nothing can be done. I say that this is both too tidy and too logical, both for the Europeans and for ourselves. Great influence can be achieved by countries working together. The more closely they work the more they will create institutions which suit them so as to enable them to have co-ordinated policies both in political affairs and in defence and to exercise an influence on the way in which matters are decided.
  There are others, as we heard yesterday, who want to go on working through the Western European Union. This is undoubtedly a bridging operation, to which I have always attached great importance. That is why I disagreed with the Foreign Secretary on the policy

  1221
  which he followed last year. But there is no doubt that when the Community starts working seriously together in political and military matters, then the W.E.U. will lose its usefulness as a forum in which we can take part. This is for the simple reason that, having thrashed out political and defence problems among themselves, the Six will not then want to go to the W.E.U. and thrash the matter out all over again with us as an outside member. I have already experienced this in Paris in W.E.U. during the period 1961 to 1963. Therefore, this is not the sort of effective influence and close co-operation that one could have inside the Community.
  At The Hague the Six have now decided that they will work together in political consultation. This is how progress will be made. There will not be a blueprint for a federal Europe, however much some individuals may want to have it. I remember Von Brentano, when he was German Foreign Minister, saying to me, "When I started in Europe I thought that we could create a blueprint for political activities in the same way as we have created blueprints in the Community." He went on to say, "Now I realise how wrong I was. With old nation States this is not the way to go about it. We shall start working more closely together and achieve our aims and then perhaps within 10 years we shall call in a constitutional lawyer from a university and ask him to define where we have got to." This is the pragmatic approach which is the British approach, and that is how I am quite convinced it will work out.
  Whatever the working arrangement, our views would be taken account of, and, indeed, we should give leadership there. The Hague communiqué specifically provided for the future and for the present development of the Community. What is more, those members of the Community who want a federal system, but who know the views of Her Majesty's Government and the Opposition parties here are prepared to forgo their federal desires so that Britain should be a member and take part in political consultation and co-ordination with them. I believe this to be of great importance. They also quite rightly believe that the Community would be much better balanced, both politically and economically, if
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  Britain were a member. That is why they support so strongly our application for membership.
  I would pose the real question that faces the Government, whichever Government negotiate. It is whether those of us who want this new rôle for Britain in a wider European Community can bring it about and, if so, how it can be done and on what basis. This is where the White Paper is of importance although we know the criticisms which can be made of it. On what basis can all this be done? I am sure that it can be done only on the basis of an enlarged European Economic Community.
  Here again, I recognise the differences of opinion held by some of my right hon. and hon. Friends and by some hon. Gentlemen opposite. The Community, of late, has been much criticised and this has been put forward as a reason for our no longer having anything to do with it. But our application was held up by President de Gaulle's policies, by his veto and by the question of British membership. Now the question of our membership, in my view, will have to be settled one way or the other during the next two or three years.
  I believe that the Six will want to settle it reasonably quickly in two or three years. Whichever way it is settled, they will then go ahead with or without us. It is quite clear that the Community is gaining in momentum. Since The Hague conference it has moved into a final form. It has settled its agricultural financial regulations and it is now working for a close economic union and co-ordinated currencies. That means coordinated economic policies.
  We must be under no illusion about the momentum that the Community has gained and the way in which this will continue. It is on the basis of the Treaty of Rome. I recognise the objections to the treaty put forward on both sides of the House. Because of the derogation of sovereignty specifically defined in the treaty over economic matters, they reject this concept of a new rôle for Britain in Europe. Such evidence as is available shows that this is not the view of our people as a whole. It is not the issue of sovereignty today on which the great majority of them differ. They are prepared to co-operate under common rules

  1223
  if the people of Britain feel the purpose is a worthy one. Of this, I am quite convinced. They are prepared to accept a pooling of sovereignty under the Treaty of Rome in the specific terms laid down in the treaty because they know that it is impossible to have successful economic operations together, except within a common framework.
  Sovereignty is for us, as a generation, to make the best use of if we can. If we can make better use of this element by operating together under the Treaty of Rome with our partners in Europe, then I believe that it is our responsibility to do so. We should recognise that no policy in the Community has been pursued against what any member country believes to be a major interest of its own—not what other countries decide was a major interest but what the country itself decided was a major interest of its own.
  Again, the reason is a pragmatic one. Whatever the position might be in international law, were the other members to try to overrule what a country believes to be its major interest the strain would be too great and the community would disintegrate. Of that there can be no doubt whatever.
  The Treaty of Rome, again we hear, is the basis for an inward-looking bloc. I think this was rather the view of the right hon. Member for Battersea, North. Perhaps we could now accept that the common tariff round the Community is lower than the British tariff. Perhaps we can accept that those countries certainly equal what we do for the developing world and in some cases exceed what we are able to do for the developing world. Perhaps we can also accept that their contribution to world stabilisation of currency from which this country and Her Majesty's Government have benefited in the last five years has been very remarkable. That is not the mark of an inward-looking community. Let us also recognise that they carry out other obligations of a defence kind across the world and that they will continue to do so. On the other hand, they do not expect us to give up our commitments which we have elsewhere.
  I cannot accept the view which is sometimes put forward by those most strongly in favour of a European policy that for
  1224
  Britain it means what it has not meant for other members—severing all our links with the outside world. They are not asking us to do this and there is no reason why we should. Indeed, it is contradictory to the whole philosophy underlying this policy, because the purpose of a wider European community is to use our influence for good in the outside world, and that can be done only by maintaining our links.
  There are others who say, because of the economic problems why can we not adopt other alternatives? I have said publicly—and I said it in my Guildhall speech—that it is right that we should look at the alternative.
  There is the alternative, as it is usually put, of building up the Commonwealth. But we know that, through neither our fault nor that of the Commonwealth but because of the movement of international trade and international negotiations on trade, the preferences of the Commonwealth have been steadily eroded. The Commonwealth will not reverse that trend, because it suits it.
  The right hon. Member for Battersea, North said yesterday that we would be moving in Europe, if we went in, into a much narrower market of a preferential kind. But surely that is difficult to sustain. The right hon. Gentleman himself said that it did not matter if the new Commonwealth countries made their own negotiations with the Community and put reverse preferences against us, as the countries of East Africa and West Africa have done. This is a trend which is likely to continue. The countries of the Indian sub-continent made their arrangements after 1963 to take advantage of the tariff changes which we had negotiated. But the old Commonwealth Market with its preferences is a market of about 35 million people with a higher standard of living than our own though it is doubtful whether it is higher than in E.F.T.A. or some Common Market countries, and if there is a change of preferences we would be moving into a preferential market of 200 million people. It is difficult to sustain the argument especially with the E.F.T.A. countries added, that this is a narrower preferential market than that which we enjoy at the moment.
  Let us look as an alternative to E.F.T.A. The right hon. Gentleman said

  1225
  yesterday that we should strengthen E.F.T.A. That was received with murmurs of applause, but what does strengthening E.F.T.A. mean? It is up to businessmen now, with our existing tariffs, to develop those markets to the utmost. That they can do, if E.F.T.A. joins the Community, whether we are in the Community together with all of them or not.
  How else can the Government strengthen E.F.T.A.? We successfully advanced the abolition of tariffs at the first meeting in Lisbon after 1963. But is E.F.T.A. to have a common agricultural policy? Is that how we strengthen it? How can the alpine agriculture of Switzerland, the fjord agriculture of Norway, the highly productive agriculture of Denmark, and our own support price system in this country—which the right hon. Gentleman wishes to retain—be brought together in a common agricultural policy?
  What other sphere is there for strengthening E.F.T.A.? To create institutions for common economic policies means the creation of a central commission such as in the Community, to which the right hon. Gentleman most strongly objects. How, then, is there a policy for strengthening E.F.T.A. as an alternative to possible membership of the E.E.C.?
  Mr. Douglas Jay: Would the right hon. Gentleman at least agree that we ought not to accept any arrangements which would mean going back on the free trade arrangements which we now have with the other E.F.T.A. countries?
  Mr. Heath: Some E.F.T.A. countries want full membership, in which case there would be no tariff arrangements between them but they would have to change their external tariffs Some E.F.T.A. countries want associate membership—in the case of Portugal leading to full membership—and others, because of neutrality, want associate membership. That would deal with the tariff question which the right hon. Gentleman asks.
  Then there is the question of increasing trade with the Soviet bloc. That is about 2½ per cent. of our total trade. Of course we should increase it, and again that depends on Government arrangements as well as business men. But this cannot
  1226
  match the opportunities which exist in Europe if we are able to take them.
  Finally, there is the alternative of a North Atlantic Free Trade Area. Of course it was right for that to be explored, but it is well known that no American Administration has been prepared to support a policy of this kind. The Canadians turned it down in 1958–59, and have now developed their own tariff policy across the border with the United States. The Australians and New Zealanders may want free entry for their agricultural products, but they are not prepared to remove protection from their industries. Therefore, from all those points of view, the possibility of bringing about a free trade area of that kind does not offer a realistic policy on which we can put our own reliance.
  Finally, it is said, "Let us have bilateral arrangements with the Six, or some other form of loose co-operation particularly in technological products." I should like to make one brief reference to what the Foreign Secretary said yesterday because he said, or implied, that our policy was to get a bilateral arrangement with France. That has never been our policy. What I was constantly urging was what the Five were always urging upon me—that as it was a French Administration which had put the obstacles in the way of British membership everything should be done by the British, working with the French, to try to remove those obstacles. It was a sensible and realistic approach, urged by the Five and the right thing to do.
  What about projects? As far as bilateral trade arrangements are concerned, they can no longer be with individual countries but only with the Six as a whole. It is true that we have developed some projects, but when we are outside the Community it will be more and more difficult for us to be involved with large-scale projects which they are prepared to do themselves. This will be the case because the outcome of economic union in the Community will be great Euro-companies under European company law.
  That is the purpose of the development today, and the difficulty which will face those who want to carry on great projects will be very considerable. But inside the Community there would be tremendous opportunities in Euro-companies, in

  1227
  which we could contribute our technology—it is mainly through companies that technology would be imparted—and in projects which would have a single chain of command.
  I do not imagine that anyone who has been concerned with any of these great projects today would say that the double chain of command is satisfactory. It means divided responsibility. It means escalating costs. It means delay in production. The only real answer is the Euro-company with a single chain of command in which we ourselves are a part.
  So the question remains: can the Six and ourselves, with the other applicant countries, make the arrangements by enlarging the present Community which will enable us to take advantage of these opportunities, both political and economic, and make what I think is an all-important contribution to the future of our own country in Europe?
  In that context, let us consider the White Paper. The Prime Minister was right to issue it. The Prime Minister was right to point out that in my Guildhall speech I asked for the greatest possible information to be given to the people, though I do not flatter myself that that was the reason he produced the White Paper. Yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) dealt with many of its aspects. It is, I think, the first White Paper I can recall which the commentators have condemned not because of the policy set out in it, but because they believed that it was statistically inadequate—to put it at its mildest—or intellectually rather disreputable, to quote the words of those who condemned it most. I shall add three comments of my own upon the White Paper.
  First, there is a failure to provide any clear and detailed explanations of the assumptions on which so many of the calculations are based. It is this omission, if I may say so to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which makes it almost impossible for other commentators or those who try to work out the figures to make any comparison with the Government's own figures. It becomes more and more confusing just to set one lot of figures against another lot.
  1228
  Second, there is a failure to provide any suggestions for Community solutions to the problems which obviously arise from the White Paper. The Chancellor may say that that was not its purpose, but, if one is to have a constructive approach to this matter one of the most helpful things which the Government could do during this interim period would be to put forward reasonable rational solutions which are acceptable to us and which fit in with the Community's method of tackling these problems. This is not to weaken the negotiating position. Indeed, in my view, it carries conviction for the negotiating position, because it shows, first, that the Government have studied the problems and, second, how they themselves believe that the problems can be handled in a Community context. I urge the Government to do that.
  In 1967, Her Majesty's Government put forward only one specific proposal, and that was to deal with the problem of sterling at the time. But it was not a Community solution. The proposal was to isolate one aspect of this country's sterling problem, and, therefore, it was not acceptable. It is Community solutions that are required.
  Third, there is a failure to provide a clear view of the criteria by which any overall arrangement which is negotiated can be judged as to whether it is in Britain's interests and the interests of the Six. This seems to me the most glaring omission.
  I believe that members of the public want to look at this question from the individual's and from a national point of view, and I shall consider that aspect of it for a moment. From the individual's point of view, what is, obviously, occupying everyone's mind is the cost-of-living increase involved in acceptance of the common agricultural policy. It was stated in the White Paper as 4 to 5 per cent. Looking at this, however, as an economic factor, it is a once-for-all jacking up on to the existing European price level. It is a once-for-all operation. Is this manageable? Is it manageable from the individual's point of view?
  We come now to a consideration of the transitional period. Over the past five years, there has been an increase in the cost of living of 25 per cent. That has been much criticised, quite rightly, but, on the other hand, as the Chancellor

  1229
  knows, the standard of living has not decreased. We can say that the standard of living has not greatly improved—[Laughter.] It has not greatly improved—that is true—not in comparison with what was going on during the period before that.
  From the point of view of a jacking-up operation, is that something which can be managed, as a result of a transitional period in which it is spread over, perhaps, five years, as a result of changes in the social service benefits which would be required, and as a result of changes in Government policies? I should have thought that, if it is forced to that level—which would not necessarily be true after negotiations—this is a matter which can be considered as a once-for-all jacking up process for which special arrangements and policies would have to be made.
  I come now to the question from the national point of view, that is, the payments across the exchanges, to which much attention was devoted yesterday. They are payments for Community funds. Can our industry, the expansion of our agriculture and the expansion of our services for the Community and the rest of the world cope with whatever is required after negotiations? It is on this matter that the Government will have to judge in negotiations if they carry them through, and on which the House of Commons itself and the people will have to judge when the arrangements are negotiated.
  Mr. John Lee: Yesterday, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) made clear that the top price—if I may call it that—in the White Paper of £1,100 million would be totally unacceptable to the Opposition. Presumably, the bottom price would be. Will the right hon. Gentleman say at what point in between the thing becomes unacceptable?
  Mr. Heath: The hon. Gentleman knows that those who are responsible for negotiations ought to give the House the calculations and show what the situation is when they negotiate.
  Mr. John Lee: What is the right hon. Gentleman's view?
  Mr. Heath: With respect, I am not negotiating.
  1230
  The real question is: will industry, agriculture and services be able to cope with the problem? It is here that the Government ought to have been able to give rather better indications than they have so far given. One can talk only in general terms. I believe that the possibility of agricultural expansion is under-estimated. In my experience, it always has been under-estimated by the Minister of Agriculture. Perhaps, as the right hon. Gentleman is on the Front Bench, I may say that I find it extraordinary that this is the first major debate on Europe I recall in which the Minister of Agriculture has not taken part.
  I believe that agricultural expansion could be much greater than is projected in the White Paper. This would save more on the balance of payments, and it would also reduce the levies which have to be paid across the exchanges, There is also the factor of the purchase of surpluses from the Community, which will reduce the amount which has to be paid out of the central pool and, therefore, further reduce the national contribution.
  This brings us to the heart of the Commonwealth problem, and it is about this that so little has so far been said. It takes us to the heart of it because of the purchases of surpluses and raises the question of soft wheat and also milk products from, in particular, Australia and New Zealand.
  As regards industry, we should look at the opportunities as well as the disadvantages. Has British industry the potential to achieve what is required of it? Again, if there is a reasonable negotiation, I believe that it has. It has the reservoir of those who still remain to be employed. It has over-manning in a considerable part of industry. It has declining uneconomic industries which can be transformed into new and sophisticated industries. It has plenty of scope for the removal of restrictive practices, for improved management and for fresh investment.
  Therefore, the problem is not, is the potential there, but, how can it be used, how can it be brought together to cope with the problems across the exchanges? What is required are the right policies to do it and the time in the transitional period which the Government must themselves negotiate. I repeat that these

  1231
  negotiated arrangements must give industry and agriculture the proper opportunities to develop and to cope with the burdens which are required under the system. Unless they can do so, there is no point in our becoming a member.
  There are some who say, "Despite all this, let us wait still further for a later opportunity". I can only draw their attention to what I regard as the sad story that in 1945 Britain could have had the leadership of Europe on a plate—indeed, Europe came to us and asked for it. In 1950, during the Coal and Steel Community proposals, we could have been in at the initial discussions, and we rejected that; and in 1956, when we ourselves were in power, we could have taken part in the shaping of the Economic Community and Euratom, and we rejected it.
  In 1961, the problems had become very great, but they were within reasonable reach of solution when the veto was imposed. Indeed, that is why it was imposed. In 1967, the veto was still there, and the negotiations did not even start. In 1970, the problems have become still greater, because the Community has reached its final stage, and because we have had to suffer a devaluation which has altered, indeed increased, the gap between the price level of the common agricultural and our agricultural policy. To those who urge, "Why do we not sit still and wait for a later opportunity?" I say that this must now be examined realistically, and that the Community will settle it with us one way or the other, and that if we decide against it, or, if the Community decides against it, then we must go on living with the situation as we find it.
  I now want to make one or two points about the negotiations themselves. I said that the Community had regained momentum. What impresses me most today is the calm confidence of the Commission and of the Community as a whole. When I was negotiating it was still in a frenzied state. This was shown throughout the negotiations, because the members felt that the Community was fragile. It had been in existence for less than three years, and this lack of confidence made them extraordinarily rigid in the proposals put forward for
  1232
  making changes which would allow us time and the means by which to adjust. Today, they have the strength which comes from confidence in the knowledge that they have reached the final stage. The Community can be much more flexible, and I think that the onus is on the Government to put forward Community solutions which will receive much more favourable consideration than we have ever had before.
  That is a helpful factor, but there is still plenty to negotiate. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman was right in saying yesterday that there was little to negotiate. There is the whole question of the timetable, the changeover, the phasing of the C.A.P., and contributions across the exchanges, apart from the problems of the sugar agreement, New Zealand, and raw materials with zero tariffs. There is plenty to negotiate about. The Government must distinguish between the transitional period, how the changeover is made, and the permanent position once we move into the final stage. I believe that the objective is desirable and worthy, and that the responsibility rests both on the Community and ourselves to find solutions to these problems of a Community kind which will enable us to obtain benefit in the long term, looking at it overall, just as much as the Community wants to do by itself.
  I come now to the Prime Minister's characteristic electioneering frolic last Saturday morning, followed by his so-called non-electioneering broadcast last Sunday. This is a matter which, in the interests of everybody, we ought to get straight. The Prime Minister said:
  "The Conservative position, calculated, considered, carefully thought-out, is to pay the entrance fee in any case."
  without any sort of qualification whatever.
  I think that it is clear from our previous position that this is not so. Indeed, one might ask why we negotiated for such a long time, and with such determination, in 1961 to 1963 to get arrangements which were suitable for us.
  The right hon. Gentleman went on to say:
  "You've got to say this about the Tory negotiating postures. It's a funny way to run a negotiation to start paying the price before you begin. It's a fairly sure way of

  1233
  getting less satisfactory terms. It's not of itself a recipe for failing to get in, it's a recipe for paying more as the price for getting in."
  That is throwing the whole matter straight into the electoral arena. It has thrown the whole question of the conduct of negotiations into the arena.
  Mrs. Anne Kerr: It should be.
  Mr. Heath: The hon. Lady may be right. Perhaps it ought to be thrown into the electoral arena, in which case let us be quite clear where we stand, because on Sunday the Prime Minister said the reverse. He was asked whether he had really intended to throw the question of Britain's entry into Europe right into the middle of the pre-election battle ring, and he said:
  "No. I wasn't dealing with the question of the terms in which we're going into Europe."
  Having said that he had to say something about the Tory posture, he then said that he was not dealing with the terms for going into Europe.
  Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would prefer me to quote what he said two minutes later in his Sunday broadcast:
  "What I am concerned with … is the strange behaviour of those who want to pay the price when they're not certain of getting in."
  Having first contradicted himself at two days' notice, the right hon. Gentleman contradicted himself at two minutes' notice.
  Let us look at the whole question of what is really involved in this negotiating posture. We have advocated that we should move over to the levy system for British agriculture. That is what the right hon. Gentleman criticises as the negotiating posture, but the Prime Minister and the Government have accepted the whole of the C.A.P., and all the directives issued under it. They had to do that, otherwise the negotiations would not begin. How can the Prime Minister say that our negotiating posture is weaker than his, when he has accepted the whole of the policy?
  Let us come to the question of paying the price. The White Paper says that under the Community food prices will rise by between 18 and 26 per cent., and the cost of living by 4 to 5 per cent. Under
  1234
  our policy for Britain outside the Community, the Minister of Agriculture himself has said, in answer to Questions, that food prices will rise by between 5 to 7 per cent., or just over 1 per cent. on the cost of living. That is one-quarter of what the Prime Minister and his colleagues have committed themselves to, and this is, therefore, a bogus point about a negotiating posture.
  Is the Prime Minister—or the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster—going to negotiate about the price level? The right hon. Gentleman has never said so. If he is, jolly good luck to him. He will find that it is far from easy in the negotiations to change the price level in the Community, but good luck to him. If he is to negotiate on the price level, does the Prime Minister think that he will bring it down to one-quarter of the difference between the Community and this country at the moment? Does he really think that he will get it down to what is our support price level? This is absolutely and totally unrealistic, and the right hon. Gentleman knows it.
  I turn to the next point, about paying the price. Under our proposal, the subsidies which are saved accrue to the Treasury, and the levies accrue to the Treasury as well. The Chancellor can use them either for social purposes, or for the reduction of taxation. That is our proposal. But what happens under the Community's proposal? The Chancellor gets none of it. It all goes to the central pool, both the saving on the subsidies which is only one-quarter of the weight of the price level, and the levies, and the Chancellor has to contribute from indirect taxation, from Customs dues, and, if necessary, a national contribution. This is the difference between our proposal which is self-contained for Britain outside the Community and the Prime Minister's commitments as a negotiating position and in practice as regards the C.A.P.
  At odd moments the right hon. Gentleman has dropped a hint that the Community will change the system. However much we would like it, there is no evidence that the Community will change the C.A.P. as such. What is will do is deal with the structure of agriculture in Europe, and with the price level, and in that we can support them if we become members. It is not a question of the system. Once we have jacked up to the

  1235
  existing price level, it is a question of the prices which are involved in the C.A.P. which matter. If, under our support price system, we want the same levels as they have in Europe, we shall have the same sort of problems in our country as they have in Europe; and the Leader of the House knows that better than anybody, because he studied it when he was Minister of Agriculture. The Prime Minister's excursion into this last Saturday was an argument which was deliberately falsified to mislead the electorate.
  There is a final point I wish to put to the Prime Minister about the negotiations.
  Mr. E. Shinwell: Having listened to the right hon. Gentleman with the utmost attention, may I ask him, in view of his observations, why he does not produce his own White Paper?
  Mr. Heath: It will be only a short time before my right hon. and hon. Friends and I will have all the resources of a Government, and then that will be possible.
  On the question of Commonwealth trade, both for temperate products and industrial goods, of the association of the developing world, which is a major part of the Commonwealth position, and of the Price Review for agriculture—all were accepted by the Prime Minister in his speech to the House in 1967. We negotiated them from 1961 to 1963 and they have all been accepted by the present Administration.
  If my hon. Friends and I are as incapable as the Prime Minister suggests in negotiations of this type of defending the interests of this country, why has he accepted what we negotiated for the Commonwealth, developed and underdeveloped, and for agriculture? It is obvious that it was just an example of the Prime Minister trying to show that he is a bold and resolute negotiator who has the admiration of the world. But what was the purpose? Was it to succeed or fail in the negotiations? Nobody can tell.
  It is interesting to note that after the White Paper, and after the right hon. Gentleman's speech on Saturday and his broadcast on Sunday, the country
  1236
  and the world—not just "The World at One", or "The World this Weekend", but everybody—has only one question to ask him: is he or is he not going to rat?
  The whole world knows what happens to the right hon. Gentleman's boldness and resolution when he negotiates. This is the man who declared that a Bill was "essential to our economic recovery", "essential to our balance of payments", "essential to full employment" and "essential to the Government's continuance in office". He negotiated that, and what did he do? He negotiated it away. That happened to the trade union reform which he abdicated and over which he was toppled by a couple of trade union leaders—[Interruption.]
  If the Prime Minister wants to fight the coming election on who should negotiate for Britain, let him come out now and fight it. Let Europe see which Government have the support of the people of Britain. And if the negotiations are successful, then let there be in power a Government who will pursue policies which are essential, and which will be essential, in Europe for this country to take its rightful place in the wider Europe which many people have worked so long to create.
  5.3 p.m.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Roy Jenkins): The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition made what I thought was an extremely thoughtful and constructive speech for the first 45 minutes. He did not continue in that vein for the last seven minutes. Indeed, he ended extremely weakly and ineffectively. [Interruption.] If, in the Opposition's view, what he did had to be done, then the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) did it a good deal more effectively yesterday.
  The Leader of the Opposition seems to fail to understand the central point—if it needs to be dealt with further, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will deal with it later—which is that we are willing to pay certain prices to get into the Community but that we are not willing to pay them if we do not get in. I prefer to concentrate on, and give a response if not reply to, the first 45 minutes of the right hon. Gentleman's speech. I can, without covering it in the

  1237
  same way, pursue much of the ground he covered.
  This is the first time that I have had the opportunity of taking part in a debate on this subject since my days on the Opposition back benches, when I missed participating in very few of them. I wish, therefore, to begin by attempting to summarise the major changes which have occurred since the issue was last before the House in 1967. There have been three major changes, two of them good and one bad.
  First, there is the change within the Community itself; there are new Governments in France and Germany and the devaluation of the franc and the revaluation of the mark have removed the monetary strain coming from within the Six. At the December Summit at The Hague confidence, which was hitherto damaged by our exclusion, was restored between the existing members on the basis both of the strengthening and enlargement of the Community. For the first time there is an approach to unanimity among them on the issue of the desirability of our entry.
  Secondly, there has been a striking improvement in our economic strength. In 1967 our balance of payments position was weak and there were doubts about the parity of our currency. We now have the strongest balance of payments, current and long-term capital combined, of any European country inside or outside the Community. These are the two favourable changes, and they are substantial ones.
  The unfavourable change is the increase in the likely agricultural cost of entry. This stems from two factors, the higher level of expenditure by the Community's Agricultural Fund and the rise in the sterling level of E.E.C. prices as a result of devaluation. This is, therefore, a substantial factor also.
  It is against this background that I come to the central question, on which the House will expect me to comment. It is that raised by the general economic assessment in Chapter V of the White Paper. When we set the possible costs against the possible benefits, with all the margins of uncertainty that are necessarily involved, can we afford the price? And even if we have the money to pay, is it worth doing so?
  1238
  I will, first, try to put the time scale into perspective. The argument against our going in is sometimes put in terms which suggest that the costs would hit us in a single, almost annihilating, blow and might do so in the course of the next few months. This is nonsense. The negotiations would inevitably take quite a long time. There would then he a further delay for parliamentary ratification in the various countries. Then we would begin the transitional period, during which the effect would be gradual and not concentrated. Altogether, we should be likely to be in the second half of the 'seventies before we had to bear the major brunt.
  However, this does not begin to answer the question: would it be worth while? Nevertheless, it has a considerable bearing on the question: can we afford it? It has a bearing in at least two ways, the first being the fact that our national income would be larger by then. Even at the past rate of progress—taking the average for the last 10 years, which I frankly regard as having been disappointing—our national income should increase, in real terms, by about £6,000 million between now and 1975.
  Secondly, there should be no question of any balance of payments cost being laid on top of the burden of short and medium-term debt repayment obligations. Even on much more pessimistic assumptions than the past year would justify, these should be well out of the way before then.
  There is a third point which is necessarily more speculative and on which I can express only my personal view. The White Paper calculations are done, as they should have been, on the basis of existing disparities between the cost of food in the Community and the cost here, which is largely based on world prices. The level of prices in the Community results in large surpluses, and there are many in the Community who would like to see prices fall to a level at which these surpluses would no longer be produced. There may well be a movement in this direction, associated with a rise in the agricultural efficiency of the Community, which is already to some extent taking place, but for which there is still a great deal of room.
  I also believe, contrary to the view of my right hon. Friend the Member for

  1239
  Battersea, North (Mr. Jay)—it is not unknown for him and me to disagree upon this matter—that there may be a rise in relative food prices outside, associated with rising living standards in the rest of the world. I would judge it likely that the gap in food prices between the E.E.C. and the rest of the world will have diminished by 1975. The cost to us will be correspondingly reduced.
  Mr. Jay: Since my right hon. Friend mentioned me, would he agree that we indeed had this disagreement in 1967 and that, since then, I have been proved right and he has been proved wrong?
  Mr. Jenkins: I do not think that my right hon. Friend and I had a disagreement in 1967, because other Departmental responsibilities inhibited me from speaking on this subject in 1967. He and I had many disagreements in 1962 and 1963 and I would say that, on a number of issues there raised, I proved right and he proved wrong—
  Mr. Jay: Which?
  Mr. Jenkins: It would be wearisome to the House to go over them, but my recollection is that my right hon. Friend was very sceptical about continued rates of growth in the Community which have proved very strong since then—quite contrary to his view at that time. That is merely one example.
  I now turn to the question of whether any likely price which we would have to pay is worth while. The economic answer, primarily—the political answer as well, to which I shall turn at the end—is the effect upon the terms of entry on our rate of growth. We must first try to get the quantities right. The British G.N.P. is now almost £40,000 million a year. An additional growth rate of a half per cent. per annum would therefore give us an extra £1,100 million per annum after five years and an extra £2,700 million per annum at the end of the tenth year. The effect, of course, is cumulative and this helps us to put possible costs somewhat in perspective. It does not, of course, mean that we could tolerate the maximum cost, and I regard it as almost inconceivable that all the factors should flow with full force in an adverse direction, but if they did, the
  1240
  result, we would all agree, would be unacceptable.
  There is a further point. The cost would rise to this maximum by the end of the transitional period, whatever level that may be, but this would not apply to the benefits. They would continue to accrue, wholly unmortgaged so far as the E.E.C. was concerned, after the end of the transitional period. They would be with us into the future. The costs would have been disposed of.
  So far, of course, all this obviously begs the question of whether the growth benefit would be there. But I have no desire to leave this crucial and difficult point undiscussed. It is not a matter—nearly the whole House recognises this—which can be subject one way or the other to absolute proof. Only events can prove what will happen. I can only lay certain considerations before the House.
  It is undoubtedly true—before anyone interrupts me, I should point out that I do not lay great stress on this point—that, over the past decade and more, the E.E.C. has shown a substantially faster growth rate than we have. I do not lay great stress on that, except to note that the E.E.C. countries have maintained their growth with more consistency than was expected on several occasions in the past and that their growth of trade, particularly with each other, has made a significant contribution to this growth.
  I am aware, of course, of the argument to which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy referred last night, that, if we abstract the United Kingdom, E.F.T.A. can be shown to have achieved approximately the same rate of growth as the E.E.C. [An HON. MEMBER: "More"] No, not more, the same. But it is also the case that, if it is right to abstract the United Kingdom, it would also be right to abstract Portugal, which is the odd man out in both groups. It is a developing country, very different from any of the others. If this is done, we return to a position in which the E.E.C. rate of growth is significantly different from that of E.F.T.A.—
  Mr. Frank Hooley Mr. Frank Hooley (Sheffield, Heeley) rose—
  Mr. Jenkins: I said, before anyone interrupted me, that I was not laying great stress on this point.

  1241
  What is perhaps more directly relevant also is the experience of one country within the E.E.C.—Belgium, which had a disappointing growth rate based on an old industrial structure, not unlike ours in some ways, and which moved up from an average of 2·6 per cent. in 1953–58 to an average of 4·4 per cent. overall or 3·8 per cent. per head for the period 1958–67. If we are to look for parallels, that seems to me to be as good a comparative experience as anyone can find.
  The main growth case in my view does not rest upon an argument by analogy. If we are to grow faster, this must mean that our more technologically advanced industries will lead the way and play an increasingly dominant rôle in the economy. They are the ones with the greatest capacity to expand their markets and get above average increases in productivity. These are two clearly necessary ingredients for faster growth. We will not get faster growth led by industries which produce goods for markets which are no longer expanding, either at home or abroad, and we will not get it from industries which, by their very nature, have little scope for further drastic improvements in the methods of production.
  Yet if we look at these growth industries, these advanced industries on which our growth hopes must depend, two things stand out. First, they are the industries which most need to have a large and unified market available. They need it because of their dependence on a large research and development effort and because, whether they are producing on a large scale or turning out more specialised products, the economies of scale are of great importance to them.
  Second, it is precisely in these advanced industries that the management leaders, with very few exceptions, are most enthusiastic for British entry. Of course, management opinion, like any other opinion, can get things wrong, but I doubt whether they could achieve such a near-unanimity of wrongness on an issue in which their own interests were so directly involved.
  Some hon. Members take a more pessimistic view and see British industry as necessarily being damaged by our opening our frontiers to the industries of the Six. The hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) I think said this yester-
  1242
  day. Whatever else may be said about this, I do not think that it is a good argument for those who want us to stay out. If one believes that it is better for us to stay out, one must believe that our industry has a special resilience which will enable it to compete successfully for investment markets all over the world, when we, alone amongst major exporting countries, are operating from a narrow home base, one of only 50 million to 60 million here at home and of 100 million if one includes E.F.T.A. But if we stayed out by our own desire, if we failed to negotiate, I wonder how much of E.F.T.A. would remain constant to our own position rather than seek to be included within the Common Market.
  Sir Hamar Nicholls: The point which some of us tried to make yesterday was that, while our industry is alert and vigorous and perhaps among the leading ones, by joining the Community, we should be on the perimeter of the new market, whereas, if we remained as a maritime Power, we would be at the centre of the world market.
  Mr. Jenkins: No. I think that the hon. Gentleman is trying to give an economic cloak to his natural insularity. I do not believe that we have any advantage as a maritime Power over, shall we say, the complex which exists at Rotterdam. I do not think that there is any inherent difficulty about having a prosperous region which is not what is sometimes called the golden triangle. I do not think that Milan or Turin or that area has failed to do well out of being in the Six. The hon. Gentleman is seeing things, possibly out of his own desire, in an unnecessarily pessimistic way.
  So if we stay out, with 50–60 million on our own, and perhaps 100 million if E.F.T.A. remains with us, with a query over that, we are asking British industry to accept a long-term competitive disadvantage which will not be true of any major competitor throughout the world not true of America; not true of Western Europe; not true of the Soviet Union and its satellites; and not true of Japan, which is already 100 million and growing very fast indeed.
  Let us note that there is, in my view, now no alternative grouping which is now seriously proposed for us. In the controversies of the early 1960s there were

  1243
  those who saw the Commonwealth as providing such an economic grouping, I think that there are very few who today see it in that rôle.
  More recently the idea of N.A.F.T.A. —the North Atlantic Free Trade Area—was fairly widely canvassed. We do not hear much of that concept today, for in my view the good and sufficient reason that there is not and never has been a sufficient body of sustained American opinion, which would necessarily be overwhelmingly dominant in N.A.F.T.A., which would be interested in the idea. By staying out, we should therefore be accepting for an indefinite future a position more cut off than that of all our major competitors.
  I am not saying that we could not survive and even prosper in such circumstances. What I am saying is that to believe that we could do so is totally incompatible with the view that our industry dare not open its doors to European competition. Outside we would still have to compete—compete with our European neighbours, but compete with them in less favourable circumstances.
  I come now to a point which I believe, from one or two questions which have been asked of me recently, may be in the minds of some of my hon. Friends. "All right", they may say, "from a gross national product point of view perhaps we could afford it. Perhaps we would even gain. But what about the balance of payments? To go in we would have to maintain a strong surplus for some time to come. Would not this exercise a constant restraint on our growth rate and consequently limit our ability to get the G.N.P. benefits which might otherwise be available?".
  I believe that this view is based on a misunderstanding of the relationship between growth rates and the balance of payments. When a country has a weak balance of payments and is trying to cure it, this is often an impediment to the rate of growth. But this is quite different from saying that a strong balance of payments goes with a slow rate of growth. Indeed, the reverse is very much nearer to the truth.
  In recent years two countries have probably stood out as the countries with
  1244
  the strongest balance of payments in the world—Germany and Japan. These have also been the two countries which most of us would probably pick out, and rightly pick out, as those with the fastest growth rates. A distinction must be drawn between the transition to balance of payments strength and the position when that strength has been achieved, particularly if, like firm, hard packed snow, it becomes, as I believe a steady balance of payments surplus can, difficult to melt.
  Our immediate need for a large balance of payments surplus has stemmed, in my view, from our need to start repaying our debts—a direction in which we may have made some very good progress recently. But there has been a continuing need, and there is a continuing need, to keep the balance of payments strong in order to get a more sustained growth rate than we have hitherto been able to achieve.
  In my view, a strong balance of payments is not something to be dissipated, something to be spent once and for all. It is, rather, a platform on which to get a generally better economic performance than we have been able to achieve in the past.
  There is no inherent reason why we should think of ourselves as a natural deficit countfy, as we have been for too long and too often in the past—obsessed and stultified by balance of payments weakness. We have shown that we can get our visible trade into balance—indeed, into surplus. On top of that, we have the strongest position on invisible account of almost any country in the world. That invisible strength would undoubtedly be further increased by our accession to the E.E.C.
  I believe that no one could be less anxious to dissipate a balance of payments surplus than I am. I have had to propound too many hard measures in order to achieve it. If we are to use that surplus as a foundation for greater wealth in the future, I believe that, provided that acceptable terms can be negotiated, we can advantageously invest part of it in the cost of admission to the Community. I believe, for the reasons I have endeavoured to give, that that is more likely—I agree that there cannot be absolute certainty—to increase our

  1245
  growth rate in the future than any other course which we could take.
  We have twice had the negotiations broken off by others and the door slammed in our faces. On these occasions, too, there was perhaps ground for a certain lack of self-confidence in our approach to entry because of our economic weakness. Now that weakness has been removed and the door is at last opening. I believe that it would be an ironic tragedy if at this of all moments we were to lose our resolution and not go forward to the negotiations.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: Can the Chancellor of the Exchequer clear up what appears to be a contradiction? Earlier in his speech he pointed out that an increase in our growth rate of only ½ per cent. per annum cumulatively would pay, as it were, for the upper limit of the cost of entry to the Common Market, but at the same time he declared that that upper limit was manifestly unacceptable. Does it follow from that that he regards even so small an increase in annual growth rate as not I likely?
  Mr. Jenkins: I think that there were about four different conclusions and five premises in the right hon. Gentleman's intervention. I do not regard any of the conclusions as following from the premises. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs said yesterday, I think that the right hon. Gentleman tries to pursue these matters a little too close to the frontiers of reason. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I did not say that I regarded it as reasonable to pay for the upper limit. I said that I thought that the upper limit was too much. I did not say that the 1 per cent. increase—[HON. MEMBERS:"½ per cent."]—in the growth rate was a maximum. I did not strike any balance between the two. Having dealt with three of the premises, I must confess to the House that I forget the remaining two.
  I turn now, briefly, to the political case for entry. Not having the detailed responsibilities of being a Foreign Office Minister, I should like to approach this standing back a little and in the broadest possible way.
  In the post-war world—the right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath) said something along these lines, though he
  1246
  and I would part company a little further along the argument—it took all political parties some time—in my view, too long—to accept a European orientation. This was not altogether surprising, for our post-1945 position appeared to be different from that of the other European countries.
  We emerged from the war with an inheritance which was proud, glorious, yet unsatisfactory. It was unsatisfactory because, of all the major countries in the world, our future was less clearly charted. America and Russia emerged with their rôles as super-Powers firmly secured. Germany, Italy and Japan had all suffered the harsh experience of defeat.
  Mrs. Anne Kerr: Can I ask my right hon. Friend a question?
  Hon. Members: No.
  Mr. Jenkins: I will not give way.
  Mrs. Anne Kerr: This is crucial.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harry Gourlay): Order. If the right hon. Gentleman has not given way, the hon. Lady must resume her seat.
  Mr. Jenkins: Their regimes had to be constructed almost afresh. France came to victory after the humiliation of occupation. We in this country were not subject to any such brutal adjustment. But our power, so far from being built up by the war like that of America and Russia, had been undermined.
  In one sense, we reacted quickly to the new situation. We made little attempt, less than some of our neighbours, to maintain our direct colonial power. We forced the pace of a substantial and successful transfer of power in Asia. During the fifties and the early sixties, similar transfers took place in Africa. We withdrew, inevitably but on the whole with good grace, from what might be described as the more selfish part of our world rôle. But from the more unselfish part we made no such withdrawal. We continued to believe that it was our duty to police large parts of the world, to defend our former dependencies, and to maintain a network of military commitments barely approached by the super-Powers, let alone by our power equals. In this way, not for unworthy motives, we tried to cling on to our precarious position as the third of the great Powers.

  1247
  Economically, we were not in their league. Militarily, we tried to pretend that we were. I do not believe that the attempt worked. It produced 20 years of severe overstrain with grave effects upon our economic performance.
  We have also had to rethink our association with the Commonwealth and to recognise that, although it undoubtedly has a valuable rôle as a means of bringing together in intimate association countries of different races and at different stages of development, the Commonwealth can no longer give us a special rôle in the world. Neither in its old nor in its new form does the Commonwealth offer us the prospect of either economic or political cohesion. None of its members, white or coloured, see it as doing that.
  Then there is our relationship with America. I believe in close North Atlantic ties. I also believe that Britain's entry into the E.E.C. should and will help and not hinder such ties. But they should be on the basis of an approach to equality. Between Western Europe as a whole and the United States this can exist. But between any individual country, Britain or any other, and the United States it is simply not possible for reasons of power parity alone.
  There is another issue to be considered. I believe that the two vetoes which were applied to Britain's application to join have inevitably devalued the ideological force in Europe of the European idea. The plans which emanated from men like Robert Schumann and Jean Monnet and the inspirations which seized those who met at The Hague just over 21 years ago were not related solely to the arrangements between an exclusive group of Powers. They offered a new way of learning from the bitterness and destruction of the war years, transcending the restrictions of national sovereignty.
  But once these objectives had been given, they could not be limited just to six countries without undermining their own basis. It is not possible convincingly to say that national sovereignty is out-dated, but to refuse to let more than a limited number of countries escape from its confines. It cannot be claimed that Europe can solve its problems only on a European basis and yet insist that European countries—we are certainly a
  1248
  European country—anxious to join should not be allowed to make a full contribution.
  I believe that that has been the weakness of the Community since 1963. It explains a large part of its loss of momentum. No one in this country should rejoice at this loss of momentum. We have suffered too heavily from European divisions in the past 60 years for any sensible person to enjoy standing on the sidelines and jeering.
  In the recent past, the responsibility for our exclusion has not rested with us. In my view, it must not do so in the future, either. But now the responsibility is on both sides—on us, to keep our resolution; on the Community, to make tolerable the terms of our entry. If either fails, the loss will be great, and it will be a loss not only for us but for Europe as a whole and for the rest of the world as well.
  5.35 p.m.
  Mr. R. H. Turton: It is very pleasant to welcome back the Chancellor of the Exchequer to these European debates after his years of purdah in the Home Office and the Treasury. He has always been a convinced marketeer, and the remarkable fact is that at present the leaders of all three political parties in this House are determined marketeers, believing that Britains' place should be in the European community.
  All the party propaganda is devoted to this end. The leading newspapers, with one exception, are all pressurising Britain to get into the Common Market. The broadcasting media do the same. Yet, notwithstanding that fact, 72 per cent. of the British people are opposed to Britain going into the Common Market.
  Why is that? I think there is a certain significance in the fact that in its supplement last Thursday the Daily Telegraph printed an article by an ex-political leader on this very matter. He said:
  "Are we going into Europe now to make a proper job of it, or will Britain shrink back in timid isolation?"
  He went on:
  "Europe will not work without a large measure of common government."
  That was written by Sir Oswald Mosley, the ex-leader of the British Union of Fascists, and that is really the clue to the repugnance of many British people

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  about Britain's inclusion in the Community. They do not want to be subject to an authoritarian bureaucracy, and they believe that that would be the answer if we went into the Community.
  The British people also feel unhappy about the political stability of the members of the Six, and they do not want to be in a United States of Europe with them. At the last election in Italy, 35·9 per cent. of the votes went to the Communists, the "Fellow Travellers" and the Fascists. At the last election in France, 36 per cent. of the votes went to the Communists and the "Fellow Travellers". At the last election in Germany, it is true that the N.P.D. did not get 5 per cent. of the votes. But there is a great anxiety that, in a few years' time, there may be in the Bundestag members of that party, which is so very like the Nazi Party before the war. I think that the majority of the British people feel that they would not wish to betray the Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians or abandon their partners in E.F.T.A. in exchange for some federal solution with a United States of Europe.
  My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition was at pains today to point out that the solution he saw was not a federal solution in Europe, but is that the general view of the leaders of the Six? Last night, the hon. Member for Watford (Mr. Raphael Tuck) quoted Dr. Luns, the Dutch Foreign Minister, who said, when he came over here, that Britain would be accepted only if she agreed to have a federal solution with the Six. I hope that the Prime Minister will explain exactly what we would be entering if these negotiations succeeded.
  Yesterday, the Foreign Secretary manufactured a wonderful bromide when he said:
  " … Western Europe would proceed, economically, legally, commercially and politically to make itself a more compact unit …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th February, 1970; Vol. 796, c. 1010.]
  What did he mean by that? My interpretation is that those words mean that Western Europe would become a Federal State. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I hope the Prime Minister will make the position abundantly clear when he replies. What is meant by a more compact unit, economically, politically and so forth?
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  On 22nd July, the Prime Minister told us:
  "I have said repeatedly that there is no immediate proposal by us or by other Governments for any federal get-together or structure in Europe.… It does not fit in with the general opinion of this House or the country as an immediate proposition."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd July, 1969; Vol. 787, c. 1498.]
  I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will make it clear tonight that, in the negotiations, he will not agree with any form of federal solution for Europe, that he will not take Britain into a United States of Europe.
  I turn now from the political aspects, which I think exercise the majority of people most in this country, to the economic side. I congratulate the Government on the White Paper. On 23rd June, when the Foreign Secretary was asked if he would produce a White Paper, he replied:
  "… it would simply be doing a disservice to the House to try to give a detailed calculation of the effects of all the factors that would be operating on the balance of payments in the first few years after our entry."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd June, 1969; Vol. 785, c. 979.]
  It is a remarkable conversion from that statement to his speech yesterday, when he had produced this White Paper, which, for all its faults, is a remarkable document.
  When the White Paper deals with the price of food, there is very little margin. The paper issued by the C.B.I. put the figure as a rise of 17 to 18 per cent. The Government White Paper puts the rise as being from 18 to 26 per cent. That means a range of increase of 4s. to 5s. in the £. Taking the present expenditure on food by the average household in this country, it would mean, for a man, wife and two children, a rise of 32s. to £2 a week in the price of their food. It is no good the Chancellor of the Exchequer saying that it will not happen for a year or two. This is what the British people face if they go into the E.E.C. It will jack up their costs to that extent and as a result our costs of production would be jacked up.
  I ask the Prime Minister to tell us whether there is any possibility in the negotiations of reducing that rise in the cost of food by any percentage? It seems to be fixed. It may well be that, for a transitional period, the Prime Minister

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  may be able to delay the full extent of the rise, but the British people know that, if they go into the Common Market, that will be the extra cost to every household. Those at work may and will ask for higher wages and salaries, but those living on fixed incomes will not be able to get any recompense.
  I turn now to the question of the balance of payments. I found it hard to follow the Chancellor on this. He obviously has not got himself clear, because he could not reply to a point put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell). The White Paper gives a figure of about £1,100 million, roughly speaking, as the cost to the balance of payments. Most of that, as Mr. Pisani has said, would come from the extra cost that Britain would have to pay to the Agricultural Fund, which has been fixed. As I understand it, what was fixed in December at The Hague on the financial structure of the Agricultural Fund is not negotiable on our entry. I hope that the Prime Minister will make this clear. At the moment, it has not been made clear by any Government spokesman, and although my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition hinted at it he did not make it as clear as it should be made.
  Mr. John Mendelson: The right hon. Gentleman made it plain.
  Mr. Turton: My right hon. Friend is a much more convincing speaker than the others I have mentioned. From 1975, all the agricultural levies, customs duties and a surcharge on the value added tax have to be paid into the Fund. I ask the Prime Minister whether he is going to negotiate to alter that for our benefit after 1975 when we are in, if we go in. Is that negotiable? If it is not negotiable, I find it difficult to understand what the Prime Minister can negotiate about that will bring down the total cost to the balance of payments to a figure that we can pay.
  Are we, therefore, limiting our negotiating position to the transitional period, saying that, for a certain time, we need not betray New Zealand. I do not believe that would be any satisfaction to our Commonwealth partners or to our own people. I am not asking for transitional provisions. I ask the Government
  1252
  to negotiate, certainly, but to have a different form of negotiations from that which the Foreign Secretary has put forward.
  It is vital that Britain and the E.F.T.A. countries should negotiate as soon as possible with the countries of the Community to secure a free trade arrangement in Europe as a whole. This is long overdue. It was offered by General de Gaulle to Christopher Soames, but, unfortunately, the Prime Minister leaked and laughed that out of court. That is what we should be negotiating about. Britain requires a larger market in Europe and it can get it by a wide free trade area open to all, not merely to the countries of Europe but to the developed Commonwealth countries and the United States of America.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the idea of an Atlantic free trade area was a non-starter. Of course it is. If the leaders of all three political parties are convinced marketeers whose only desire is to get into Europe, how can the American Government or any Government say that they would be happy to join an open free trade association to which we would belong? If the country and the Government realise that the price we are being asked to pay is too great, then we have this solution, which will not betray our friendship with Australia, New Zealand and Canada, a solution that will not abandon our E.F.T.A. alliance and which will not involve a steep rise in our cost of living and I believe that that is Britain's destiny.
  5.52 p.m.
  Mr. George Brown: It is hard to know how to begin my contribution to this great debate, because we are dealing with Neanderthal man on the other side of the House, whom I recognise over there but do not recognise on this side—
  Mr. Shinwell: You had better not.
  Mr. Brown: He has his counterpart over here.
  I start by confessing an interest. I belong to the generation and the wing of the Labour Party that thought that Socialism was international, and that our fellow workers, whether in the Continent of Europe or elsewhere, were equal with

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  us. What I find most distasteful is the willingness of some of my hon. and right hon. Friends to pick up the argument from the other side and talk about our continental colleagues as if they are inferior to us.
  The second thing I dislike is the ability of some of my hon. and right hon. Friends and some of the Neandertal men to reduce the argument to a rather miserable economic level. I once had this argument with the then Leader of the Labour Party, to whom I was the deputy, who made a great speech at a seaside conference of ours about the thousand years of history behind us. I had the job of picking up the pieces and trying to make sure that the jigsaw was not destroyed.
  I think not so much about the thousand years of history behind us, but about the thousand years, or, maybe, the hundred years, in front of us. We are not deciding today how much my wife will pay for bacon tomorrow or next year. We are talking about my children, my children's children and my children's children's children, what Britain will be 50 or 100 years from now. What road do we see for Britain? We have for a thousand years played a significant rôle in the world. What we are now discussing is how we go on playing that rôle in the world, and where.
  May I make a declaration? I will try to meet the economic argument, but to me this issue is far more political than economic. For me, it is a question of how, in a changing world, Britain can still retain a capacity and a power to influence events. I make no apology to anybody. I will pay a very high economic price for that political power to influence our future and the way in which the world develops I would probably pay a higher economic price than other people might want to pay; that is a reasonable difference of view. At the end of the day, it is our ability a hundred years from now, as it has been our ability for a thousand years, to influence events that is really important.
  I enjoyed the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, although I thought that during the last seven minutes he was making a political electoral issue of this question. I hope
  1254
  that we shall get off, and keep off, that level. As I say, much of the speech I enjoyed, but what stuck with me was his reference to the Europeans and ourselves. What are we? Asiatics? Africans? We are Europe. We have always been involved in everything that has happened in Europe. The only time that Europe has ever gone wrong and cost us millions of casualties was when we tried to withdraw. Then Europe went wrong.
  We have always had to come in to redress the balance. The men who are counting the pennies should count the lives that it has cost us to hold the ring until the Americans came in, and the pounds we have poured out until we got back again. Europe is where we are, where we have always been and, in this new world in which a country of 50 million people cannot expect economically or in any other way to live by itself, Europe is where we have to be.
  I have in my constituency one of the greatest aero-engine firms in the world. It makes a wonderful engine. How many can Britain order? Perhaps 10. The company cannot even carry its research and development expenditure in its domestic market. How can it compete with Lockheed, which may get an initial order of 250 in the United States? By the time that it is selling, it will have written off its research and development costs. It does not have to carry a single dollar of research and development on its export engines because its domestic market takes care of the problem. We cannot do that. We need a market of 300 million people so that we can start exporting on equivalent terms and so that we may have an initial order not of 10 but from the whole of Europe, write off the research and development costs, and then start competing.
  It puzzles me that the little Englanders who are frightened of giving up any sovereignty should force our people into what is without question an inferior economic position for emotional reasons. I regard the White Paper as a monstrosity. In all my life I have never seen anything like it. I cannot think who wrote it. Had I been responsible for it, it would not have come out in this form. I quote one sentence of page 18 which puts the matter in perspective:
  "With a smaller price gap, the overall level of production might be marginally higher

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  or lower than it would be outside the Community depending upon whether the production response was greater or less".
  Choosing my words very carefully, I say that I do not know who was conning who. But I make it plain that M. Jean Louis Rey will not be conned as easily as that. It is a silly White Paper; it helps us not one whit.
  I represent a vast agricultural constituency. Food prices in the shops are not related to what my farmers are paid. Sir Jack Cohen, my friend, with his vast supermarket in the Edgware Road where my wife goes, often twice a week, just to show that we are still friends, is not charging my wife what my Derbyshire farmers are being paid. He is charging her what she is willing to pay. In Britain industrialists can barely make a return on capital employed sufficient to cover the cost of borrowing the money. But I am told that distributors are making 22 or 25 per cent. on capital employed because they have vast margins.
  If the price which my Derbyshire farmers get goes up, it does not follow that the prices in the shops go up. The distributors may well be squeezed. It is ridiculous to say that when producers are paid more prices in the shops go up. I challenge any Member representing an agricultural constituency to deny that for long we have been saying that our producers, especially our vegetable producers, were getting much less for what they were producing than what the distributors were charging in the shops. This is the price that we pay for not having an efficient and controlled marketing system. It is a silly argument to say that if the price to the producer goes up inevitably the price to the consumer goes up. The consumer already pays more than she should for much that is produced at a reasonable price.
  My farmer friends in Derbyshire want nothing more than to be encouraged to produce corn, which they are not encouraged to produce under our system. When I was at the Ministry of Agriculture, in 1947, with Tom Williams, I helped to put through the Act which made our present system permanent. As a result, my farmers are discouraged, because Derbyshire is geographically a badly sited county. It gets a great deal of rain at the wrong time of the year. We have less soil than we would like to have. Under
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  the present system we are discouraged from producing corn.
  Given the agricultural system of the Community, my farmers would gain from joining it and the income of the producers would rise. If the income of the producers rises, our contribution across the board falls. We could sell quite a lot of things at very advantageous prices across the board. Much of the argument is so tenuous as to be not valid.
  Mr. Bert HazeII: I should like my right hon. Friend to tell us how his farmer producers would gain by this country entering the Common Market in view of the higher feed costs involved and the fact that in the E.E.C. milk products are already greatly in surplus.
  Mr. Brown: I shall leave it to my right hon. Friend to follow up that point. I will simply say this: we would be selling animal food which we are not encouraged to produce and sell at the moment. We would, therefore, benefit to that extent. As my hon. Friend knows quite well, some will gain and some will lose. But my farmers, and certainly his men in East Anglia, will make an absolute picking, and he knows that very well.
  When I began my speech, I said that to me the argument was mostly political. I return to the political argument because we can go on and on with the other arguments, like a game of pat-ball. When I presented the application on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, I said, quite fairly and this is in a Command Paper—that the economic argument was finely balanced, although I thought that it came down in our favour. It has always been my view that it is the political arguments which tell.
  I said earlier that we are part of Europe. Joining the Community would give us the chance to become a powerful, influential member of an integrated Europe. I would not want it to end with joining the Economic Community. If that is all that is involved, I have not that much interest. Some of our great industrial companies, motor car, chemical and textile companies, will gain and other people will lose, but I would not be all that interested if that is all it involved.
  What I am interested in is if this means that we will begin to be again a leader—I

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  do not arrogantly say, "the" leader—of Europe. I want to be able to influence European defence policy. I do not want to be wholly dependent upon whether Mr. Melvyn Laird, President Nixon, or anyone else decided to withdraw 100,000 American Servicemen from Europe. I do not want to be under what someone at Question Time today called the "nuclear umbrella" of America.
  I want to be able to have a say when the use of that umbrella should be invoked. I do not want it to be on the basis of whether we should put New York, Boston, or San Francisco at risk. That is not my business. I do not want them to do what they did a year or so ago, when the then United States Defence Secretary, Mr. McNamara, nine days before the Defence Ministers were to meet, made a unilateral announcement about the anti-ballistic missile, which changed the whole dimension of defence in Britain.
  The right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) may not like it, but we, Britain alone, cannot affect these things. We, Europe, we, Western Europe —I look forward to it some day being we, the whole of Europe—could affect this. This is what I want those who oppose this policy on political grounds to understand, that they have got the wrong end of the stick. Our sovereignty is being eroded every day, whether we like it or not. More and more, as the Chancellor so rightly said, the big and grave issues are becoming the prerogatives of the so-called "super-Powers". I do not like polarisation. I believe that this is very dangerous for all of us—and most of us are small nations.
  We must resist by joining the Common Market as a step to joining the integrated Europe. We will not be eroding our sovereignty, but bringing it back. We will be giving ourselves again the power which we used to exercise, only this time we will get it as a leader of a community of nations here in Europe. So, without any question, this is how it is in Britain's interests to create a strong European Community.
  "But", people said yesterday and again today, "it is a bit inward looking, isn't it? If it were outward looking, would not that be better?" How much better it would be to make it outward looking
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  when we and Eire and Denmark and Norway join it. That is the best way to make it outward looking—[AN HON. MEMBER: "Simultaneously?"] Yes, simultaneously. There will be no problem about that. We all say that we back our comrade Willi Brandt's efforts to get a genuine östpolitik in any improvements of the reactionary influences in Western Germany. How much more could we help him to do that if we were part of a Europe of which he was part.
  I go even further. The right hon. Gentleman said that he did not like, or would not have, this business of a United States of Europe. I do not know how long it will take us to get them. It took centuries to get a United Kingdom—
  Mrs. Winifred Ewing Mrs. Winifred Ewing (Hamilton) rose—
  Mr. Brown: —and the hon. Lady wants to break it up again. There are not only Neanderthal men, but Neanderthal women.
  It took us centuries to get a United Kingdom and it may take us a long time to get a united States of Europe. I would say to my right hon. Friend, whom I like, and with whom I enjoy very much this kind of argument, that I would go for that. How long it will take us to get there, I do not know, but I should like to think that, in my lifetime, in this House, we started off on the road which will give us a political community—
  Mrs. Ewing Mrs. Ewing rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. If the right hon. Gentleman does not give way, the hon. Lady must sit down.
  Mr. Brown:—which will give us a political community and a central body for making political divisions which matter to all of us.
  I think that foreign policy should no longer be balkanised. Being balkanised destroyed the Balkans. Being balkanised brought Russia into that part of Europe. We should be very silly to walk the same way. I therefore honestly want a political community. However many steps it takes, however many years it takes, I want a political Community so that Western Germany, or the whole of Germany, does not make decisions which affect us without our being able to affect those decisions.

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  This is the real point. I have never forgotten that notorious dinner in the Harcourt Room, when Mr. Khrushchev said, "If you do not agree with me, I will make my own arrangement." The word "Rapallo" is stuck in my mind. Whatever Mr. Khrushchev said, another Russian leader can say and another German leader can say. Those who are in power at the moment are my friends—I trust them and like them—but I would not like to guarantee that there would never be someone else. I want to be there when the decision is made.
  I can only be there if I am part of a political Community, because whatever decision is made inevitably involves me, my children, my children's children and any children that they may have. We are being very silly—I would say with respect to my right hon. Friend—if we behave as though our little England is any longer permissible or valid and can any longer hold a position of strength.
  Mr. Michael Foot: My right hon. Friend will be aware that an agreement of that nature in Western Europe was made by the Western Powers at Munich. It is because they thought of half Europe, instead of the whole of Europe, that some of us so much oppose this policy.
  Mr. Brown: My hon. Friend will remember that I said that I would like it to be the whole of Europe.
  But I must start with what is available. I would like the Eastern European States in as well—[An HON. MEMBER: "In the Common Market?"] With great respect to my colleagues, who are very willing to make growling noises, I have spoken, both in and out of office, with most of the leaders of the Eastern European States who are not wholly Soviet-controlled. They would like this, too. The best way to start is to get Western Europe organised and then we can add our weight to the Eastern European States who are not willing or who cannot be crowded down by Russian tanks and guns. We all know what happened to Czechoslovakia, but there are other Eastern European States which are able to stand up and resist. I know what they would like to do, and I believe that this is the beginning.
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  There are some people who argue the case on the basis of electoral opinion in the country. I would not know what the majority would be for me in my constituency, or what it might be against me at the next election. What I do know is that when I put my case it will not be a matter of 10 or 50 votes either way. Our constituents expect us to take our view, to make our case, and if we do so honestly we need not enter into electoral calculations. It does not matter a single damn. If they like me, because of what I am, they will vote for me.
  Please do not let us enter into this matter as an exercise in electoral advantage. I personally believe that the future of Britain requires that we join the Common Market as a step to creating an integrated political Europe. For that, I am quite willing to declare myself, and I will face my 80,000 electorate without any trouble at all.
  6.22 p.m.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: On one thing at least the whole House will, I believe, be in agreement with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Belper (Mr. George Brown). It is not a question of minutiae, economic or otherwise, which we are discussing in this debate. We are discussing perhaps the most solemn issues to which this House could apply itself, issues where our decision and our actions will have their effect for generations to come.
  Having listened to the debate so far, I feel that on the whole the House has been rather harsh to the White Paper. Those who compiled the White Paper were asked to do a combination of the impossible and the irrelevant. It is rather churlish of the House then to complain at the result of that attempt. An attempt to quantify the cost of entering the Common Market was bound to be self-defeating. In one sense, we can describe the cost as the amount of resources which, under the working of the Common Market, would have to be transferred from this country to the rest of the Community; but that quantity depends on the current policies of the Community which, if we entered, presumably we should influence and which we certainly cannot foresee. Therefore, the quantification of the cost in that sense falls down before it starts.

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  In the narrower sense, the cost to the balance of payments must depend on the exchange rates which are in force between the different members of the Community and between them and the outside world. Those rates have altered several times in the last two or three years and it is a reasonable assumption that they will alter unforeseeably many times yet.
  Then there is the balance between the cost, however assessed, and the prospect of economic gain. I had a brief passage of arms on that subject earlier this afternoon with the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But at any rate he and I agree that the assumptions one makes as to the long run economic consequences of our being in or out of the Community render the figures in the White Paper, or can render them, relatively insignificant.
  The real service performed by the White Paper is a service that was badly needed. It refers us back to our own reason and judgment on the long-term, inherent consequences of joining the European Economic Community, a process from which we shall not be saved and from which we shall not be excused by any figures produced by civil servants, however ingenious or industrious. That judgment and that reasoning has to be applied over the whole area; but the whole area divides itself naturally enough, although there is some overlap, into three fields—economic, political and military.
  The economic aspect is dominated in most of the discussions by the concept of growth. In its simplest form the argument is that since the European Common Market has experienced, relative to this country, a high rate of growth since it came into existence, therefore the chances are that if we were part of the Community in future we, too, would grow faster than we have done. This is the sort of process that is described by anthropologists as sympathetic magic—the idea that if one puts two things together, the one will assimilate itself to the other.
  There is no reason behind the assumption that, if this country were a member of the E.E.C., or had been in the past, or were to be in the future, the growth rate experience by us would resemble that of one extreme rather than the other extreme of the spectrum which the Com-
  1262
  mon Market itself displays; for in talking about the growth rate of the Common Market we have averaged out, in that figure of 4 per cent., or whatever it may be, the very disparate experiences of the various countries.
  Incidentally, the figures in Table 14 of the White Paper are figures for the whole nine years of the Community's existence. But there has been quite a story during those nine years. This comes out if we compare the nine-year figures in the White Paper with the experience of the last three years set out in a Written Answer on the 23rd of this month col. 247. We find that in those three years, the average annual rate growth of gross national product per head in the German Federal Republic was 1·7 per cent., contrasting with 4·2 per cent. in Italy, and producing an overall average of 2·9 per cent.
  What reason have we for supposing, since it is purely a matter of assumption, that if we were members of the Common Market our growth rate would be assimilated rather to that of Italy than to that of Federal Germany? Indeed, what reason have we for assuming that the growth experience of the Common Market countries in the coming years will not be much more like their experience in the last three years than like their experience over the whole nine years? For the earlier part of that period was strongly influenced by post-war and other factors which have disappeared.
  This is a relatively crude argument, as its very proponents recognise and as the Chancellor of the Exchequer candidly admitted. There is a growing fashion, a kind of game played by those who engage in discussions on this subject, which one might call "growth-picking". It consists in looking through the voluminous statistics, all too voluminous, of the growth rates in various countries and assembling groups of them together to suit the purpose of the particular player at the time.
  I am afraid that the Chancellor was guilty of a little "growth-picking" himself when he took Portugal out of the E.F.T.A. average. I admit that the E.F.T.A. average itself is a nonsense, like all these averages. However, to dress up his argument, he just flicked Portugal out, saying, "After all, Portugal is a developing country; so we will not count it".

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  However, if there is a "growth-picker" who would like a tip, I would say that he should put his money on Turkey. In the figures for the last three years, way out beyond anywhere but Japan, there is Turkey with a 6·9 per cent. growth of g.n.p. per annum per head. Now, there is a wagon to hitch one's star to, if one is really after growth. It is a good N.A.T.O. country, too. So what is wrong with having an economic Community with Turkey, and growing at 6·9 per cent. per annum?
  Mr. Stephen Hastings: Would my right hon. Friend consider picking Rhodesia?
  Mr. Powell: My hon. Friend is trying to take me into other and perhaps more distant fields by his intervention.
  The fact is—and the Chancellor of the Exchequer settled for this in his argument—that our prospects of growth depend not upon association with one country or the other, but upon our own internal and external environment. Incidentally, I noticed that it was my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition who, almost alone in this debate, made the point that, after all, something does depend upon us and on the way in which we manage our affairs in this country.
  The wider argument which is put forward is that of the large market. A very simple piece of sleight-of-hand is performed by those who operate with this argument. They start by saying, "Nowadays, in the important and progressive branches of production, it is necessary to have a large market." In the next sentence, they slip in the word "domestic". They go on to say, "Having agreed, then, that it is necessary to have a large domestic market, it follows that this, that, or the other." There is a gap in the argument, across which there is no real bridge.
  Of course, a large market is needed for certain lines of production; but that market does not need to be a domestic market wholly under the control of the producers. The world is littered with examples of firms in some of the countries with the very smallest domestic markets which dominate the world and have got the world market. Firms of this sort in such countries as Switzer-
  1264
  land, Sweden, and Denmark are household names. There is literally no co-relation between the size of the domestic market of an economy and its rate of progress. The whole idea of a specific relationship between the two is mythical. Perhaps the only case in point that one can find is that of the United States, which is at the top of both leagues.
  Of course, if we were just talking about free access to that European market to which 20 per cent. of our trade goes already, it would not be necessary to have this debate. But the large market which Britain needs and will need for her most intensive forms of production is not one which we ought to circumscribe even to the market of Western Europe. What this country needs is the utmost freedom to choose and to find, for each commodity and line of production, the market which offers the best opportunities. So I reject the argument from the assumed necessity of a large domestic market, which is really a false deduction from the necessity of a large market for many, though not for all, lines of production.
  I come last in this economic section to the blood-curdling argument with which the Foreign Secretary ended his speech. He said, "Ah, yes, but what will it be like for us at the end of the century —for little us, with the giant United States across the Atlantic and the giant unit in Western Europe?" He asked how we shall fare under the shadow of these two great political—and I will come to "political" in a moment—and economic units. I refuse to be frightened by this prospect. In any case, I regard it as an unreal bogey. But, supposing it to be real, and accepting the hypothesis for a moment I refuse to be frightened by it.
  Are we at any great disadvantage in our international trade because of the immense size and power and economic strength of the United States? It is one of the very best markets of the United Kingdom, and surely it will continue to be. Is the argument that our trade today would be healthier and more lucrative if the Confederates had won the Civil War, or the plantations had never been united? The existence of that tremendous economic unit in the Western Hemisphere does not damage this country. If I were put to it, I would rather argue the thesis that it assists than that it damages this country.

  1265
  Similarly, I see no reason why we should be damaged by trading with a large, efficient and economically prosperous unit, if there is to be such, in Western Europe or in Europe. But that brings us from the economic to the political. Let us look at the sort of unit that it would be on the Foreign Secretary's hypothesis. It would be a unit compact "economically, legally, commercially and politically". The right hon. Member for Belper brought the House to the real issue before us when he said that we have to envisage on behalf of our fellow countrymen all that would be implied in the United Kingdom being embodied in a Western European unit, compact "economically, legally, commercially and politically".
  Most hon. Members are agreed that the movement of public opinion in the recent past has been unfavourable to entry to the Common Market. Time and again in this debate, hon. Members have asked what has been the reason for this sudden, sharp and indubitably hostile crystallisation. I believe that the reason is that the deeper implications, especially the political implications, have at last been candidly disclosed both from the side of the Common Market and from the side of its advocates in this country. There is no disposition in the White Paper to mince matters. Paragraph 9 refers to the prospect before the Community as being progress towards "economic and monetary unification", towards "a common social policy", and towards "political unification".
  We are now told that, whatever be the form—federal, confederal, or whatever—that is what the Common Market is about. Whether or not we are to be compacted with it, it is to be a unit which increasingly has common monetary, economic and social policies. Only today, in a report from Paris, I was reading how the political leaders in the European Economic Community accepted "that there must be meaningful harmonisation of policies". The report goes on:
  "This means that such things as growth targets, rates of inflation, unemployment, budgets and taxation must eventually all conform to a community standard."
  Are not social policies, growth targets, unemployment, development and taxation the very stuff of politics, about which
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  we in this House argue day and night? Are they not the subjects about which we compare our differing opinions and objects before the electors, seeking to bring them to our point of view? This is what politics is about, what this House is about, what the electoral system of the country is about—how our social services shall be organised, how we shall be taxed, how the development of different parts of the Kingdom shall be managed or not managed, [Interruption.] Yes, and ways and means. I do not go into legal matters: I will rest with these economic and social questions.
  The President of the Community has told us that, in his view, there will be a common currency by the end of the 1970s; and think what we have all gone through together in the last few years for the value of the £ sterling. If the Community is to be a community in which these matters increasingly are decided in common, then his other prediction must come true, too, that there will also be a European Parliament elected on universal suffrage by the end of the 1970s. It is the view of Her Majesty's Government that a true Parliament—one like this, one which sustains and criticises a government dealing with the heart and soul of political matters that affect ordinary people—is implicit in the European Common Market. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy said in a Written Answer on 2nd February:
  "I would remind the hon. Member "—
  my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne)—
  "of the Government's view, set out in the Anglo/Italian Declaration … that 'Europe must be firmly based on democratic institutions and the European Communities should he sustained by an elected Parliament …[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd February, 1970; Vol. 795, c. 3.]
  All pretence is now aside. All the words with which we amused ourselves two or three years ago, eight or 10 years ago—I confess that I also amused myself, along with the rest—that this was really an economic matter, a matter of trade, and that the rest was pure theorising: "a few European theorists, perhaps, but we pragmatic British take no notice of that"—that is all stripped aside. The question we are deciding is whether we can and will enter into a political unit that deals with all the major matters of

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  political life affecting the daily lives of all the people in this country, under a Government sustained by a European elected Parliament. Elected it must be; nothing else would be imaginable or acceptable.
  We have to say whether that makes sense or nonsense to us. The British people have to say—I think that they are saying already—whether it is sense or nonsense to them, whether they can imagine it and whether, if they can imagine it, they want it. Now, an electorate which sustains a true Parliament has to be an homogeneous electorate. By that I mean that every part of the electorate has consciously to say, "We are part of the whole; we accept the verdict of the majority as expressed at the polls and then, somewhat curiously, reflected in the composition of this House".
  That is why this Parliament works. That is why this Parliament is our pride and our guardian, because it rests on an electorate which, with vanishing exceptions, is in that sense homogeneous in that it is prepared to accept the verdict of the majority, because it feels that it is the majority of themselves.
  The question posed to us is: can we now, or in the next 10 years, or in the foreseeable or imaginable future, believe that the people of this country would regard themselves as so much part of an electorate comprising 200 to 250 million other electors—
  Mr. George Brown: Three hundred million white people.
  Mr. Powell: —that they would accept the majority view on taxation, on social policy, on development, on all the matters which are crucial to our political life? I have to confess that I do not believe such an attitude of mind is foreseeable.
  I do not believe that is the outlook of our people. I do not believe that in that sense, which is the necessary sense, they identify themselves, as part of a whole, with the electorate of Western Europe. It may be that they should; but that is not the question. It may be that we should be a different people from what we are; but that is not the question. The question is whether this is sense or nonsense, practicable or impracticable.
  Mr. George Brown: If it is a question whether they should or should not, may
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  I ask the right hon. Gentleman what advice we should give them? I repeat the interjection that I rudely made while sitting down, against the rules of the House, that they are all white. Why should not we say to 300 million white people that we should all agree and work it out and accept the majority decision? I ask the right hon. Gentleman: what is so wrong about that?
  Mr. Powell: There is nothing right or wrong with it. The question is: what is the present or the foreseeable outlook, feeling and belief of the people of this country? We cannot alter that by saying "Oh, would that it were different! Would that they did regard the people of Western Germany and the people of Sicily as so much a part of the same electorate that they would bow to the general majority decision, as the people of Cornwall and Devon, however reluctantly, today accept the decisions of the United Kingdom Parliament!"
  Moving into the third and last of the areas—the military area—I want to put this to the most acid test. We are told that the European Common Market is necessary to us, with all its political implications, for defence. My right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) said yesterday:
  "European unity is equally essential from the standpoint of military security".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th February, 1970, Vol. 796, c. 1053.]
  I accept that, as has been pointed out many times, the United States is contributing more to the defence of Western Europe than all the Western European countries together. I accept that the probability is that the American contribution will diminish over the years to come. But I, then ask: what is the relevance of that to the question of political unity for military purposes?
  We have an alliance in N.A.T.O. with all these countries that links us with them and with Canada and the United States. Is the contention, since our contribution to European defence is deficient and since the continental countries are paying a lesser proportion of their national income for defence than we are, that, if we were amalgamated, if there were a central political authority, a central political will, we would all pay more? Is it the proposition that what the individual countries are not willing to

  1269
  contribute they would be made to contribute by a unitary Government? Is that the argument?
  An Hon. Member: Yes.
  Mr. Powell: If that is the argument, I am not sure that I like the idea of a unitary Government with power to impose upon these populations a military effort which apparently they do not at present voluntarily accept.
  Of course, there can be a genuine military argument here. If the military capabilities of all the countries concerned were put under one command and one political leadership, in the sense that the American forces are under the President or the British forces are under Her Majesty's Government, then the same forces, I agree, would be more effective; but let us follow this through. Let us imagine that the alliance has been replaced by political unity, and that one of the essential functions of that political unity is military organisation, military preparation and military decision.
  Mr. George Brown: And foreign affairs.
  Mr. Powell: Yes, and foreign affairs.
  I want to put this most solemn question to the House, a question which we have a duty to face; for we are asked to say yea or nay, and the country is asked to say yea or nay, on this issue above all others. The question is this: in 1940 we were members of an alliance. Let us suppose that instead of being members of an alliance, we had been members of a political unit with a military function.
  An Hon. Member: There would not have been a war with Germany.
  Mr. Powell: Someone says, "there would not have been a war". I proceed, ignoring the foolish optimism of those who think that because there are military preparations there will be no war. [Interruption.] The use of military force to balance other military force is what we are talking about—I go back to 1940; for this is how the people of this country instinctively see it and put it to themselves.
  Suppose, I say, there had not been an alliance, but suppose, instead, that we and our forces—I mean the forces raised
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  from this kingdom—had been part of a political and military unit with a single political Government and a single command, a unit much larger in relation to the United Kingdom than the alliance of France and Britain was. I ask: does anyone suppose that the force which saved this country and saved liberty would not have been thrown into the lost battle by that political unit and swallowed up in defeat?
  That is what is meant by political unity. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Hon. Members will not face it. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is not true."] Hon. Members have to come to face the difference between political unity, which means what is says, and alliance. This is the acid test of whether we identify ourselves with the electorate of the rest of Western Europe, so that we regard ourselves as part of that whole just as surely as Coventry and Bristol regarded themselves as part of the United Kingdom in 1940.
  Captain Walter Elliot Captain Walter Elliot (Carshalton) rose—
  Mr. Powell: I have almost finished. This is my last word.
  I do not believe that that is the outlook of the people of the country. I do not believe that they so regard themselves now or will so regard themselves in the foreseeable future. That is why I believe that, whatever we say in this House, whatever White Papers we publish, whatever negotiations we enter into, when the reality is comprehended it will be rejected by the people of Britain.
  6.52 p.m.
  Mr. E. Shinwell: If I may indulge in the well-known cliché, adversity makes strange bedfellows, I never expected to find myself in this peculiar situation. I am unable to describe the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) as a comrade. That would be going too far. Perhaps I had better put him in his proper place by describing him as a camp follower.
  I say that because the right hon. Gentleman for many years believed that we ought to go into the Common Market helter skelter, lock stock and barrel. But he is a master of surprise; indeed, he is now what I would call an ex officio

  1271
  member of the anti-Common Market league. We are grateful for any kind of contribution, so we must accept the right hon. Gentleman.
  The right hon. Gentleman was right about one matter. He said that we ought not, on this issue, to indulge in minutiae and trivial matters—and, I would add, the domestic question of prices, high or low. He is right about that. This debate has nothing to do with it.
  If I may indulge in a digression, I must say that, convinced as I am that we ought not to go into the Common Market, my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. George Brown) convinced me beyond any possibility of change. In fact, he frightened me. I understand what he is driving at. He has been driving at this all the time, ever since he was Foreign Secretary.
  Mr. George Brown: And before that.
  Mr. Shinwell: —And even before he was Foreign Secretary. I include him in my category of those who would go into the Common Market irrespective of conditions and that has been my view ever since this argument began.
  It has nothing to do with prices. Take, for example, the White Paper. There is no clarity in it. It is a series of assumptions, speculation, conjecture and the like. It is not worth the paper it is written on. This argument is about something very much more important.
  There is a very wide issue involved—not merely the question of going into the Common Market for economic reasons, but entering the Common Market and being captured, not for a year or a few years but may be for all time. The argument is not only on the economic issues but the political issues and, I add, military issues.
  Over and over again I have ventured in these debates, inside and outside the House, to direct attention to what appears to me to be one inescapable fact, namely, that Germany, a powerful industrial nation, does not want us in for economic purposes. She has no need of us for that. I see that my right hon. Friend agrees. She wants us for military purposes. She wants this country of ours, even with its limited military resources, to bolster her up against the possibility
  1272
  of soviet sggression That is the purpose of it all.
  I am bound to say that my right hon. Friend, in extravagant language, presented a picture which, as I said, frightened me as it must have frightened many right hon. and hon. Members. He envisaged a situation in which we enter on certain conditions or without conditions—I shall go into the question of acceptable or unacceptable conditions a little later—but,once we enter there is a phasing. We come to some agreement. Then we build up a political situation. My right hon. Friend was not very anxious to tell us what kind of political organisation was likely to exist, whether it would be bureaucratic in nature or democratic in nature. That is all left for the future. There is no certainty about that. But it would be the building up of an organisation which, in the long run, meant that there was an effective, efficient, powerful military alliance in order to face up to Soviet aggression. That is the purpose of it all.
  It may be said that we have N.A.T.0., but nobody regards that as a strong and powerful organisation, capable at any time of standing up to Soviet aggression. This is something quite different and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West has put us in the picture and I am glad that he has done so. Now we have clarity. We know where we are.
  My right hon. Friend spoke about his electors and said that he was not frightened about the response from them. I should like him to tell his electors exactly what he is driving at. If he wishes to interrupt me, perhaps he will do so now.
  Mr. George Brown: I have been reminded by some of my hon. Friends that they also wish to speak, so I shall put this point as briefly as I can. The outfit which I was envisaging would be a democratic European Parliament controlling all the nation States in Europe. What does my right hon. Friend find so wrong about that?
  Mr. Shinwell: I am obliged to my right hon. Friend. Now we have it—a democratic Parliament, presumably elected—
  Mr. Brown: Yes.
  Mr. Shinwell: —not nominated, but elected. Elected where? Let us start here. It would be elected no longer for this Parliament—I suppose that we shall be a sort of parish council—but for a European Parliament. For a long time, I have suspected that my right hon. Friend, because of his obsession about entering the Common Market, has hopes that some day he may be elected to a European Parliament, and there is always the possibility, at the very least, of his being a member of the cabinet. I cannot imagine a greater calamity than that for Europe.
  Mr. George Brown: What about being my P.P.S?
  Mr. Shinwell: No, I shall not be my right hon. Friend's P.P.S. I had better make my position clear before I proceed further.
  I respect the integrity and sincerity of all those, including my right hon. Friend, who take a view different from mine, even though I do not agree with them. My right hon. Friend believes in what he is saying. It is unfortunate, but there it is. For what it may be worth, I am an unrepentant, determined, resolute, obstinate, stubborn and—if people care to say it—perverse opponent of entering the Common Market. I suppose that I am the only Member who occupies that exalted position. All around me there are reservations of one kind or another, "We shall go in if the conditions are acceptable; we shall go in if we can have assurances of one sort or another; we shall go in because, if we do not, this country is doomed to defeat, able to survive but no more than that."
  For me, there are no reservations at all. When the next election comes, unlike my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper I shall not be facing a body of electors. I shall be on the sidelines, a ringside spectator, but if I have the opportunity—I should not be surprised; I may be asked to speak—I shall tell the electors exactly what I have just said. But I shall go further and tell them that, because of my conviction that entering the Common Market represents for Britain a disaster in the long run, I would not vote for any candidate of any party if he was in favour of entering the Market. That is as straight as I can make
  1274
  it. [Interruption.] I shall go to my right hon. Friend's constituency with delight, provided that he pays my expenses. I have never changed my mind on this question right from the outset.
  I come now to what I regard as, perhaps, the most important issue of all. It is a domestic issue, but it has nothing to do with prices. I disregard those minor considerations. I refer to the electoral issue. First, I must say, in passing, that I have derived some pleasure from the debate. Guess what it is. It is that the coalition between the two Front Benches has come to an end. That was well worth while. There is no longer the loving embrace, no longer the enchantment one with another.
  I recall what happened in the last big debate we had two or three years ago when there was a division of opinion in the House and 62 hon. Members from both sides voted against the Government. But on that occasion there was a coalition between the two Front Benches, which percolated down—or up—to the back benches. On a three-line Whip—or, perhaps, a six-line Whip—the Government derived great pleasure from the fact that the Opposition supported them in defeating those who were opposed to entering the Common Market. In other words, the Government used the Opposition. They can use them no longer.
  By the way, the Government then had the benefit of what has been described as the payroll vote. I did not devise that expression—I had nothing to do with it, though I heard about it—but I refer to the Members of the Government, many of whom—I challenge contradiction on this—were against the Government's policy, but were forced to vote as the Government directed. What would have been the position without that so-called payroll vote? If the Opposition had not voted with the Government, the Government might have got through because of the payroll vote, but the back benches on that occasion were almost equally divided. I venture the opinion that there is a more acute division now than there was then. I say that because of the electoral consequences.
  Time and again, in private and in public, I have ventured to advise the Prime Minister, politely, of course, and with characteristic courtesy, not to make

  1275
  the question of the Common Market an issue at the election. I regard that as dangerous. Now, however, I think that it is unavoidable. The speech of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister the other day, the submission of the White Paper, this debate, the attitude of the Leader of the Opposition today in his criticism of the Prime Minister—all this means that, when the election comes, almost every candidate will be asked whether he is in favour of going into the Common Market, whether he is in favour of higher prices, whether he is concerned about exchange rates, about changes in currency—
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: About foreign labour.
  Mr. Shinwell: Yes, there are all these questions. It may well be that on this issue the political future of this country will be determined. There is no escape from that.
  I return now to the question of conditions. Some of my right hon. and hon. Friends are prepared to go into the Common Market without any conditions. Yesterday, I asked the Prime Minister:
  "what are the specific proposals he will make when negotiations take place with the European Economic Community which safeguard British interests?"
  It was a fair Question. This was the Answer:
  "I would refer my right hon. Friend to my reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) on 19th February." —[OFFICIAL REPORT. 24th February, 1970: Vol. 796, c. 983.]
  I looked it up. In the Answer which he gave to the hon. Member for Banbury, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister referred to a statement made by
  "the then Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs £ which £ remains"—s
  I emphasise that word—
  "our position"—rOFFiciAL REPORT, 19th February, 1970; Vol. 796, c. 187.]
  Thus, the position stated then is the position now.
  But my right hon. Friend said on 4th December that the negotiations
  " could be related to a relatively small number of strategic issues"—
  that is what the negotiations were about—
  1276
  "A great deal of ground was covered in the early negotiations, and, if that is still agreeable to our colleagues in the Six, nothing agreed then need be the subject of prolonged negotiation again."—[OFFiciAL REPORT, 4th December, 1969; Vol. 792, c. 1702.]
  I wanted to know how that came about. There was in HANSARD a reference to a Command Paper. I shall tell hon. Members what the number is so that they can obtain copies for the purpose of greater accuracy. It is Command 3345—the best piece of anti-Common Market propaganda yet devised.
  Who was the Foreign Secretary then? It was my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper. When we hear this double-talk, "We will go in if the terms are acceptable and we will not go in if they are not", I would ask right hon. and hon. Members to read the White Paper. I cannot read the whole of it, for obvious reasons, but apart from some euphoria, some expressions of glory about the system that will operate in future—a long way off—apart from that, the document throughout indicated that only a few minor issues were at stake, such as the question of milk and what it would cost, and New Zealand butter. That was not regarded as a formidable problem.
  The word "formidable" appears several times in the document. The issues are always regarded as limited in character, hardly worth discussing. These were regarded as negotiations. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said today that there were no negotiations, but this is what we had. This White Paper was the communiqué issued by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper at the time, with the full consent of the Government. It indicates beyond any question that the Government at that time, certainly my right hon. Friend, and presumably the Prime Minister, were in favour of entering with conditions that were hardly worth talking about. Indeed, the suggestion is contained here, quite contrary to what my right hon. Friend said this afternoon about phasing and the time that it would take—the standstill operation and the rest—that we would go in without any difficulty.
  Mr. George Brown: This is an attack on my integrity. That document says what I said this afternoon. My integrity

  1277
  is as important to me as my right hon. Friend's is to him. That document says the same thing, that we would phase it over a sufficient period to enable us to do it properly. Nothing that I said this afternoon is different from what I said in the document.
  Mr. Shinwell: I am not questioning my right hon. Friend's integrity. I will read part of the communiqué. It says:
  "I have set out"—
  this is my right hon. Friend speaking—
  "fully and frankly the issues which we believe will require attention in negotiations to provide for our entry into the European Communities. Our list is not a formidable one. More than ever we hold to our view that it presents no questions to which an answer cannot reasonably be found in our common interest."
  Practically nothing at all. This has been my suspicion—that there are members of the Government who would enter the Common Market with any conditions. All these statements about terms being acceptable are just double-talk. [Interruption.] I understand the opinions of my right hon. Friend. But I have mine and I am entitled to express them.
  Mrs. Anne Kerr: My right hon. Friend is right.
  Mr. Shinwell: All this double-talk, all these suggestions that we will go in if conditions are acceptable but will not if they are unacceptable, is plain, unvarnished humbug.
  Mrs. Anne Kerr: Exactly!
  Mr. Shinwell: That is what I say and that is what I mean.
  The Foreign Secretary made a speech yesterday of no consequence whatever. This afternoon we had a speech from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, a wonderful, powerful speech. What did it show? Did it show that he would not go in if the conditions were unacceptable? That speech showed that he held the strongest opinions about entering the Common Market, without any question. My right hon. Friend the Member for Belper and the Chancellor—I do not include the Prime Minister because, frankly, I do not know where he stands—
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: Neither does he.
  Mr. Shinwell: He blows hot and cold, but there it is.
  Hon. Members: Here is the Prime Minister.
  Mr. Shinwell: I am not likely to be deterred by fear of not being promoted to office.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Belper I understand, but I do not agree with him. I think that he is wrong. This afternoon his language and the desires he expressed were grotesque, fantastic and frightening. As for the Chancellor, his was a wonderful speech, clearly indicating that he was not concerned with conditions. He would go in if there was any opportunity because he strongly believes that we ought to go in. As for my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, he baffles me. I am not sure where he stands in this matter, or whether he believes literally in the contents of the White Paper. Indeed, I wonder why the White Paper was ever produced it contains so many reservations and qualifications. I would like to know where my right hon. Friend really stands. Does he want to go in? Will he go in only on conditions related to decisions that we made at Labour Party conferences and which he has accepted unreservedly? We are entitled to know.
  We are told that if we do not go in this country cannot survive. I refuse to accept this defeatist attitude. I do not believe it. This country, provided there is vigour, provided we put our backs into it, provided we use our resources wisely, trading with every other country in the world, if there is an opportunity to do so, can survive. Even the countries of the Common Market, if we fail to join them, are bound to trade with us. The French and Italian wine producers, the Dutch farmers and all the rest, cannot do without our market. I want to see this country trading with every country in the world.
  When the Leader of the Opposition talks about international co-operation I remember how my old friend the late George Lansbury spoke from that Bench many years ago, nearly 40 years, demanding international co-operation. That is what we want, co-operation with every country in the world, trading with them technologically, culturally and occasionally militarily. I believe in Britain, strange as it may seem. I am of foreign extraction. My family came here in the 1850s,

  1279
  but I have a great affection for this country and, what is more, I have pride in it, as I believe we all have. Let us show it. There is no need for us to enter the Common Market. Trade with it, cooperate with it as far as we can, but stand by Britain and make the best of it.
  7.18 p.m.
  Mr. Julian Amery: The right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) left us in no doubt where he stands on this issue. There was only one point on which he was uncertain and that was the position of the Prime Minister.
  I am sorry that the right hon. Member did not give us the benefit of his best guess on what is a fairly central and important subject. I think that he will agree that the basic issue underlying this debate is what is the framework in which this country is most likely to find security and prosperity. This is no new issue. It is a question which has occupied all the right hon. Gentleman's political life, and even before that. When the right hon. Gentleman was born, Britain still believed that she could go it alone. We followed a policy of "Free Trade and Splendid Isolation."; and it was not until the beginning of the century that Joseph Chamberlain came forward and said that we would lose our economic and financial leadership unless we made an economic union of the Empire, as it was then called. He put forward the case and argued it cogently, largely on the argument of the big domestic market, but he was defeated on the cry of "dear food".
  A generation went by, and it was not until we had 3 million unemployed, and our currency was devalued, that his policies were put into practice, and proved right by the event. Many of us looking back must feel that if only that Empire economic union had been launched in 1903 when it was first proposed there might have been no First World War, no great depression, and no Second World War.
  The Second World War: my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) referred to 1940, to what would have happened, or what might have happened, if we and France had been part of a single nation. But this is precisely what Sir Winston Churchill offered the French. The object
  1280
  of the offer was that instead of capitulating in France the French Government should come to England and fight on.
  Mr. Powell: What happened?
  Mr. Amery: They refused the offer. They were not part of a union. They were members of an alliance. If they had been members of a union I have little doubt that they would have come to London to fight on.
  After the Second World War, as the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) pointed out in a powerful speech yesterday, it was clear that the Commonwealth itself as an economic union was no longer on a sufficient scale to meet the challenges of a post-war world where the standards of power were set by the Soviet Union and the United States. There was a need for a broader industrial base if we were to buy all the raw materials and other goods which the Commonwealth had to sell and if we were to provide them with the investment capital which they needed to develop themselves.
  That is why, in the search for a broader industrial base to enable us to generate the money to defend ourselves, and to invest in the under-developed countries, Sir Winston Churchill took the lead in launching the European movement. That he and my father—and they were not men who were backward in their support for the Commonwealth—should have taken this lead shows the new scale on which we had to think.
  I have been associated with the European movement from its beginnings; and looking back the political arguments in favour of a junction between this country and the Continent seem stronger today than they have ever been. The Soviet threat, the threat from the East, has not diminished. It is not yet 18 months since the House was recalled to debate Czechoslovakia, to record its disapproval, and to register our impotence to do anything about it.
  We have seen a great statesman, whatever his failings, and whatever criticisms we may have of him, General de Gaulle, try to pursue an independent policy on a national basis, and fail. We and the French are, to a limited extent, independent nuclear Powers. There are strategic armament limitation talks going on

  1281
  between the Russians and the Americans. We are not invited to them. I doubt very much whether we even get closely informed about what is happening. There is a serious crisis in the Middle East. There are supposed to be four-Power talks to deal with it, but everyone knows that the reality is that the talks are between the Russians and the Americans.
  Mr. J. T. Price: If the right hon. Gentleman is talking in military and strategic terms about the integration of Europe, or the defence of Europe against a threat from the East, surely he appreciates that the only defence of Europe which matters in the context of contemporary world politics is the shield provided by American power still in Europe, and where we hope it will be for a long time, so long as the threat remains. It cannot be replaced by any European union.
  Mr. Amery: The hon. Gentleman need not have bothered to intervene, because I was coming to that.
  No one in his heart feels confident that the American nuclear shield will long be there to protect us against a minor, or indeed a major, attack from the East. There is an urgent need to pool our resources to provide a more adequate nuclear and conventional defence than we have today. It may sound reassuring to us that the President of the United States should have said that he would no more think of withdrawing from Europe than from Alaska, but I am not sure how much his phrase has reassured people in Ottawa.
  In the same way, I think that my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) was very wise when he said that we must not take Western European unity for granted. As the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. George Brown) said, there are dangerous currents in Germany. There are neo-Nazi currents. There are neo-Rapallo currents. We want to provide a framework in which Germany can find security and prosperity.
  The constitutional objections to a junction between this country and the Continent have greatly diminished since the matter was first raised at the end of the 'forties and the beginning of the 'fifties. So long as the great triumvirate of Christian Democrats, de Gasperi,
  1282
  Adenauer, and Schumann were in power, the accent was on a federal Europe; but I do not find a federalist tone in Paris or Bonn today. If there is to be a European union, it will begin on the basis of co-operation between Goverments. How the European family of nations will grow is something which we can judge only in the light of experience.
  Many people believed before the First World War that the British Empire would develop on federal lines. It did not. Nevertheless, it achieved very effective unity in the First World War, during the great depression, and in the Second World War. We do not know how Europe will develop, but there is one matter on which I agree with Lord Gladwyn. I am sure that it will not develop into a federation on American lines. Meanwhile, in the words of the hymn:
  "I do not seek to see the distant scene, One step enough for me"
  To those who are particularly concerned about sovereignty I would say, "What has happened to our sovereignty?". We have our economic policies run in partnership, in harness, between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. Pierre-Paul Schweitzer, but I am not sure, in the harness team, who is the horse and who is the jockey.
  There are those who are frightened of involvement. After all, we became involved in two world wars, once for Serbia, and once for Danzig. The fact that we were not members of a union did not protect us from getting involved.
  The right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) raised the technological case for a junction with Europe. Speaking from my experience, I can strongly underline his case. Hon. Members may or may not support the Concorde project in which I played some part, but one thing which is quite clear is that the cost of projects of this kind is so great that we in this country could not possibly contemplate doing them on our own. We can do these things only in conjunction with others.
  We are all much more conscious than we were when these matters were debated in 1962, or even in 1967, of the "American Challenge" To their credit the Government have tried hard to do something for the computer industry, yet I see that

  1283
  the software side of the computer industry comes more and more under American control. We are within a few months of the first landing on the moon, and yet there is no European space programme, and the very limited one that is on the drawing board is one from which we have contracted out.
  I know that many of my right hon. and hon. Friends—and I think that my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton), the Father of the House, is one—have often said that they see the need for an alliance, and for technological co-operation, but why must we join the Common Market? I think that the real answer is that foreign policy and defence policy are not things in isolation. They are really the policies by which a country or a group of countries defend and promote their material interests. Unless we put our material interests, our trade and payments, together, we will never in the long run develop defence and foreign policies that march together.
  We face the problem—it is the occasion of this debate and the cause of the White Paper—of whether the terms of entry that we are likely to get at the negotiating table will be acceptable. I will not go over the advantages again since they have been well discussed, except to say that the economies of large-scale production are undeniable.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton. South-West sought at one time to argue the opposite, but later in his speech he seem to contradict himself when he told us that America had achieved some of its prosperity by the victory of the Federalists over the Confederates and that that was not a movement which we needed to regret.
  From experience I feel certain that the economies of large-scale production are of immense value. I learned long ago, when I represented an industrial constituency in the North-West—I learnt this from every industrialist I met—that the chances of selling exports successfully depend on being able to sell over the top of a large and prosperous home market. If one has a home market of 300 million people one will sell better to third countries than if one has a home market of only 50 million people.
  1284
  We should never forget the immense bargaining power of a big market. Already Britain is such an important market that it gives us great bargaining power in purchasing from overseas. Think of what the bargaining power of a European market of 300 million people would be.
  Naturally, the opponents of the Market lay great emphasis on the increased cost of food which would come about from our joining the E.E.C. This may be good stuff for the hustings, but there is a certain irony, which the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr.Michael Foot) will appreciate, that the Daily Express, that great organ which in the past has supported the protectionist cause, should now be raking up all the Radical and Liberal arguments of the beginning of the century about dear food, to shoot at supporters of the Market.
  I find the arguments about dear food the least serious of them all. The fluctuations in retail food costs over the last few years have been extraordinary. Food costs rose between 1958, when we stopped food subsidies, and 1964 by about 2½,per cent. each year. Between 1964 and today they have risen by about 5 per cent. This is already a great fluctuation.
  There are vast fluctuations between food prices in supermarkets and retail stores in the centres of towns, which pay heavy S.E.T., and stores on the outskirts of towns, the rents and rates of which are lower. The White Paper would have us believe that we would pay between 15 per cent. and 26 per cent. more for our food, over and above whatever other natural increases there might be during the transitional period of five to eight years. The Economist says this is "untrue"; indeed, I thought that the Foreign Secretary seemed to agree with the Economist.
  I have the gravest doubts whether any of the statistics mean a great deal. Some increase there will be in the cost of food, but we have been through all this before. In 1952 Lord Butler took off half the food subsidies and compensated for that by increasing family allowances, insurance and supplementary benefits, old-age pensions and by reducing direct taxation. That was not inflationary because the increase in food prices syphoned off the extra consuming power which he injected

  1285
  into the economy. Food is an emotional issue. Let us tell the people the facts. But let us scorn to exploit their fears.
  The balance of payments question is obviously a more critical issue and one which we trust that the Government of the day will battle hard over at the negotiating table. There is, first, the question of the rate of levy that we will have to pay. The White Paper would have us believe that we might face a loss in exports on the balance of payments of between £125 million and £250 million a year. The right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) bumped this up to £500 million. The Economist called the White Paper figure "unadulterated rubbish". I would not go as far as that, but I think that the right hon. Member for Battersea, North is exaggerating.
  It seems clear that we will increase our exports to the Common Market, as all the other Market countries have done to each other. It seems to me that, with the economies of large-scale production, we will sell more to third countries over the top of a flourishing home market despite some loss of preferences, and I am sure that our agricultural production will increase, probably dramatically.
  One reason why the Six are swimming in butter is because agricultural prices were fixed so high that market forces have produced quite unexpected increases in production on the Continent. The same could happen here, to the assistance of our balance of payments position.
  Nor do I greatly fear a big outflow of capital. There will, of course, be some outflow, but we offer a so much better capital market here than is offered by any other country, with the exception of perhaps. America, that I think that most of the Continental and third countries— Euro-dollar holders and big depositors like Kuwait—will keep their money here and will probably bring fresh money to Britain at the same time.
  With respect to the right hon. Member for Battersea, North, I suggest that our industrialists will be less tempted, once we are in, to set up factories on the Continent than they are today. Many hon. Members will have had experience of businesses which have deliberately set up subsidiaries on the Continent to get on the other side of the Common Market tariff barrier. Once we join that temptation will no longer exist.
  1286
  Much has been said about Commonwealth preferences and I think that the Foreign Secretary was a little too pessimistic about this issue. They have been seriously eroded by what I believe to have been the mistaken policy of both parties when in office of accepting the "no new preference" clauses of G.A.T.T. We have a duty as well as an interest to maintain the preferences as far as we can, and it is clear that something must be done for New Zealand and the sugar producers.
  We should not stop there, however. The former members of the French Union have almost all concluded satisfactory association agreements with the Common Market. Israel, Nigeria and East Africa—the former British colonies of East Africa—have done, or are doing, the same. I do not see why we should not have an extension of preferential arrangements between those countries with which we have had reciprocal preferential arrangements and the Common Market as a whole.
  In other words, we could convert our preferences into agreements of association between them, the Six and ourselves. Indeed, a distinguished American, Mr. Schaetzel, made a powerful speech on the Continent some time ago forecasting that we would do just this and deprecating it as representing the establishment of a new European overseas sphere. Nevertheless, I believe that it will happen.
  The colonial movement was not an aberration. Europe has never had the markets or raw materials it needs within its own borders. We can never have a Fortress Europe like the Americans could have a Fortress America. The colonial days have gone and will not return, but I believe that special agreements of association will take place between ourselves, in Europe, and the countries of Africa and of the Middle East with which we have been traditionally associated.
  The next great issue is that of the length of the transitional phase. Britain's entry into the E.E.C. will mean important changes in the pattern of industry, not only for us but for the Continental countries as well. This is a matter on which the Six will have strong views, just as we have. The principle I urge on our negotiators is that we should be prepared to scratch each other's interests but not

  1287
  to skin or break them. The transitional period should be long enough—I hope that it will be more than five years; for the most difficult categories six or eight years would be better—to enable adjustment to take place without breaking bones.
  The negotiations, then, will be about the level of the levy, about preferences, and about the period of transition. There will be plenty of room for bargaining. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, the outcome does not depend on us alone. The crux of the matter is the intention of all concerned. We have twice faced a French veto. If the French want to keep us out again, they can. Will they want to?
  None of us here can speak for certain. My belief is that changes in France's own position, her own economic and social difficulties, the change of Government in Germany, and changes in American policy, have brought about a change of heart on the other side of the Channel. If the change is real, they will not ask us to accept unacceptable terms, and we should not seek impossible concessions from them.
  In any case, we are not dealing here with "the laws of the Medes and the Persians that can never be changed" If in the light of experience, even in the period of transition, some of the conditions are found to be too onerous for us, we would expect our partners to make changes to suit us, just as we would be and should be prepared to make changes to suit them rather than insist on concessions which they could not afford.
  I end by making only one reference to the Prime Minister's weekend speech. It has had one unfortunate effect so far—to call forth a rather ominous and hard comment on the question of British entry from M. Pompidou in New York. This issue is too serious for cheap electioneering cracks. In a democracy everything has to be in the political arena and talked about, but this issue is too serious for cheap cracks.
  The right attitude should be for us on this side to say to the Prime Minister that he can count on our support when he goes to the negotiating table and that we expect to be able to count on his loyal support if and when the wheel of
  1288
  political fortune leaves it to us to pick up the hand and finish the game.
  7.42 p.m.
  Mr. A. Woodburn: The right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery) will excuse me if I do not follow him; because I agree with much of what he said.
  I have listened to the debate with great interest. There have been some very fine speeches. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs gave a wonderful exposition of the case for the Market. The Devil's advocate, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) might be considered from the Common Market point of view, made a splendid assessment of the opposition case.
  The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) started his speech with a very close analytical examination of figures. Figures have played a great part in the debate. My impression is that everybody has been concentrating on the thin edge of wedges which, according to history, are seldom driven home. We have been given an entertainment of economic and political horror comics and told of the dreadful disaster which will befall Britain if we join the Common Market.
  All that has happened is that Parliament has decided that the Government should apply for membership of the Common Market. When we enter, we will become members of the European Community. From that time onwards, every decision will be our decision as well as that of the rest of the members of the Common Market. The idea that we are going in to Europe to sit at the door and be dictated to is a caricature of what will happen. At the moment we are outside the door of Europe shouting in, giving it advice and trying to influence it from the outside. We shall not help to guide European destiny if we talk through the door. We must be sitting with our colleagues at the table, helping to decide European destiny.
  I was glad that the right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion dealt a little with the history. This European development has arisen because when Europe was balkanised, as somebody has described it, we suffered two world wars. Such

  1289
  wars could have arisen again. After the last war, Ernest Bevin tried to bring France and Germany together to get them to sit at a table and find some way of solving the problems that had divided them for so long and which had led to war over economic problems in Europe. He succeeded. The whole of this European development has arisen from these steps to bring the three Powers, Luxembourg, Holland and Belgium—Benelux —together and then gradually extend it to bring in the Six.
  When Winston Churchill went to the conference at The Hague, he gave a great inspiration to Europe—not because he would cheapen the price of butter or anything like that, but because he gave them a hope for the future to lift them out 'of the depths of despair. Every European country had been occupied by foreign troops. Every European country had been under the heel of a dictator. Those peoples were looking for salvation from any further wars and any further dictatorships. Winston Churchill went to The Hague conference and gave them inspiration and enabled them to raise their eyes to the vision of a united Europe.
  I had the privilege of attending some very big conferences in Europe. I attended the conference of the Communes of Europe representing 30,000 local authorities with 5,000 delegates. They did not discuss the economic implication of unity. They wanted Britain in, not because they expected her to contribute to their agricultural fund, but because they thought that she would be the champion of democracy, a bulwark against dictatorship, and would help to unify Europe and prevent war.
  It was an inspiration to hear those people from towns and villages throughout Europe, who came to the conference with a great idealism. I am glad that some speakers have introduced some of that idealism into this debate. The question of a united Europe is not a question of a nation of shopkeepers wanting to make some money out of Europe. It depressed the people of Europe that Britain was always discussing how much it could make. Today we are discussing how much we shall lose.
  This is bringing a great historical issue down to a very mean and petty level. It is not the Government that have done
  1290
  this. This has been done by people who have asked the Government to produce statistics. Figures can be produced to mean anything.
  I believe that history demands that the peoples of the world should become united. We cannot get a world government yet—that is a bit too ambitious. This is a unity on our own doorstep, yet people who formerly wanted to unite the whole world in a glorious brotherhood are now niggling about all the petty details and pouring cold water upon the great ideal of the people of Europe coming together.
  I believe that there is no danger in our going into Europe. The idea that all the horrible things that have been suggested will happen the day after we join the Common Market is belied by history. I am a member of a small country which has been a member of the greatest common market in the world for 250 years. It has not lost its identity. The Scots are still Scots. The Irish are still Irish. The Welsh are still Welsh. The English, though they do not pay so much attention to it, are still English; they see no reason why everybody should not be English. They do not understand nationality.
  We understand nationality. We have not lost our nationality. Nor have we lost the right to make our national contribution to the world's culture and wellbeing. The idea that what has not happened in this country after 250 years of a homogeneous common market will happen in Europe in about three weeks is a lot of nonsense.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: We are not controlled by the Treaty of Rome.
  Mr. Woodburn: The Treaty of Rome says that the whole of Europe should sit around the same table and discuss Europe's affairs. Viewing the matter logically, we are in Europe, our firms are in Europe, much of our trade is in Europe, and many of our people travel to Europe. When one can go from here to Paris in half an hour, artificial barriers are an anachronism. It takes about three or four days for a lorry to go from London to Italy, because of passing through the various customs. It could go the same distance in America in half the time or less.

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  I remember when one could not go outside Paris without passing through Customs at the gates of Paris and paying duties—octrois. They used to examine old wives' baskets and make then pay octrois between Paris and the outside. Those who want to perpetuate that system are blinded by prejudice and the fear of the foreigner. I have talked to Dutchmen, Frenchmen, Germans, Norwegians, Swedes and Danes and I know that the colonel's lady and Judy O'Grady are sisters under the skin. These people are as decent as I and I am prepared to trust them in negotiations.
  My right hon. Friend painted a terrible picture of this £1,000 million which we should have to pay the Common Market. We have had the greatest difficulty transferring £80 million across the frontier to pay German defence costs. No one has ever explained how this £1,000 million will get to Europe. Do we send them a cheque, print notes or send a couple of Concordes each year? After the First World War, I heard Bernard Shaw say in a speech,"Make Germany pay". The Germans offered mark notes, but we wanted coal instead, until one of the civil servants said that that would upset the miners. Aeroplanes were similarly out of the question, so it was decided that we would take potash. As if one could have £1,000 million-worth of potash landed in this country.
  The ridiculous idea that one can mix up trade with all these artificial subsidies and indemnities was wiped off the economic board about 100 years ago, when Germany found that it could not accept the indemnity from France. It was found that it could not be collected without dislocating its own economy. All we would do is to make an economic muddle. No one will convince me that the Commission and the Community are such fools as to make an agreement like that: they will want a practical agreement.
  Scottish farmers do not fear the Common Market: they will do very well out of it. One says that he will sell vegetables to Holland in the spring, because he can produce them earlier. The highly specialised meat of the Highlands would find a ready market. We are already sending lamb to Paris from my constituency as a delicacy for the
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  French table. There may be differences, but our farmers are not afraid. I am sure that the same is true in England. It may threaten the small farmer, but he is being threatened anyway as agriculture becomes rationalised.
  I agree with what the right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion said about the industrial and technical side. A leading industrialist, one of our most up-to-date technicians, recently showed that with every 100 million of population by which his market increases, his costs will fall by 5, 10 or 15 per cent. One thing on which I agree with the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West is that many of our problems will have to be solved whether we enter the Common Market of not by, for example, getting better industrial production and industrial relations.
  I am satisfied, from my 25 years in industry, that, if we could get the cooperation of workers and employers to make productive processes efficient, we could reduce our costs and put this country on top of the world even without the Common Market. But even in the Common Market we will have a great advantage. It is no use our scorning the fact that we cannot sell goods to people in other parts of the world who cannot pay for them.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: Has my right hon. Friend not seen the official report from the Common Market that last year they had a £74 million deficit, as against a £300 million credit, on their balance of payments and that they are now going to introduce a squeeze and deflationary measures? Will that help us?
  Mr. Woodburn: That will happen in any case. One thing which one cannot get people to realise is that no one can put more cabbages on the table than he grows in his garden. Every housewife knows this, but many expert economists do not seem to. The Chancellor has great difficulty in convincing our people that they cannot consume more than they produce. So that problem will have to be solved anyway. What we are dealing with is political unity. If we were to start from scratch, we should organise Europe by having a Government which dealt with things European. No one expects the European Government to decide where all the "Clochemerles" will

  1293
  be built in the local villages. Even in our own country the Government get into trouble for trying to tell people what to do in their own localities. We are trying to reorganise our local government so that democracy will be as near people as possible for the small things, but for great regions there will be regional authorities. We might also have national authorities for England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, with a British Government dealing with things British. In this context, it seems sensible to have a European Government to deal with things European.
  No national authority, for example, can make laws to control fishing in the North Sea. It must be done by many roundabout methods. There are big companies which are spreading over frontiers. Who controls them? No single Government can. We must have horses for courses in administration as in other walks of life. We want a political Government of Europe to deal with things European. It is the business of our Government to see that that Government does not take on too much or interfere in national affairs any more than is necessary.
  All the horrors which have been mentioned are so much propaganda because people in this Parliament, like people in the country, tend to believe what they want to believe and then look for arguments to back it up. A great deal of our debate has been finding arguments to back up previous convictions. The idea that we can be independent in a world which is really one economic unit is ridiculous. Our balance of payments position is tied up with the position of other countries and we cannot possibly cut ourselves off from them.
  The same applies to our defence sovereignty. Professor Jacks defined a nation as people who were under the same military command. We are under the command of N.A.T.O. In a war, every man in this country would be under one commander of N.A.T.O. We are already to some extent in line with the United States, but, for convenience, Britain and the Common Market countries should be joined together and there should be political control over the military and economic life of Europe.
  The E.E.C. Commission is a wonderful institution in its way. It provides a European brain consisting of people already thinking in terms of Europe.
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  Nevertheless, people in Europe are alarmed because the European Parliament has very little control over the Commission and are wondering how it can become democratic and control the Commission. This is where the question arises of elections and suffrage. No one has solved the problem yet and I see great difficulties in such elections. But —and it is perhaps flattering to us—this is one of the things which Europeans are anxious for us to come in for. With our experience of democracy, they look to us in the hope that we might perhaps solve the problem, which will have to be solved sooner or later, otherwise we shall have an unknown body controlling the affairs of Europe and of this country, with the people having practically no say. Anyone objecting to a Parliament of Europe is arguing for a dictatorship in Europe without public control. We must have public control. If we have parliamentary control, we will have control of Government in Europe.
  This has been a great debate. I hope that the public will be able to gather some of the pros and cons from it, but it would be misleading to give the public to understand that this is a matter of pure economics or of bargaining and shopkeeping between ourselves and Europe. It is a great ideal, this brotherhood of man in the world. It is the ideal of organising the unity of Europe with a view to preventing further wars and dictatorships, a view not only of a Europe contributing to the well-being of the backward countries but of organising Europe economically and militarily.
  I hope that all this will lead to the wonderful and colourful variety of the constituent parts of Europe contributing to the future culture of the world. We all—Frenchmen, Germans, Irish, Welsh, Scots and English and the rest—have a wonderful colourful variety of experience and gifts and it is that variety that makes Europe the wonder and marvel of the world.
  8.4 p.m.
  Mr. Edward du Cann: The right hon. Member for East Stirling-shire (Mr. A. Woodburn) always speaks with sincerity and I respect his ideals, but idealism alone is not enough. Like many others who have spoken in the debate, he has referred, quite properly and with pride, to his consistency. I

  1295
  cannot claim the same virtue. My position has changed. After the war, as a young man in uniform, I prayed, almost, for the unity of Europe, but as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said in his excellent speech today the scene, too, has changed. It has become increasingly complex.
  I am less certain than I ever was that British entry into the E.E.C. would be right. If I and other hon. Members say that after a conscientious and honourable attempt to make up their minds, they have honest doubts, I hope that no one will carelessly categorise us as anti-European, or as bad Europeans. That is not and cannot be so.
  Of course, our nation must work in partnership with France, Italy, Benelux and other countries on the Continent, and with Germany above all, but how? There are many and various ways. The question is whether it must be within the Community, or whether it can only be inside it.
  Nor let it be suggested that there is anything disloyal to one's friends or party in honest doubt plainly expressed. It can be no bad thing if hon. Members occasionally mirror public opinion.
  We do not make any decision today, yet, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, the debate is important, for it is a great step in the process of decision. We start with the negotiation. It will not be complete before the next General Election. Indeed, it will not be complete for one or two years after that, but at any rate it begins. Time, even if one regrets the missed opportunities, as my right hon. Friend expressed them, in 1945 and again in 1950 and subsequently, has at least one benefit. When the negotiation is complete, when the schemes have been properly costed and we know what the terms are, when all that is done, after that, and only after that, is one entitled to make a final judgment, to evaluate the risks and perhaps to take them.
  The speech of the right hon. Member for Be1per (Mr. George Brown) was remarkable for its concentration on the political aspects; and it is true that by comparison the economic items are minor. It is the political issue that is main. But it is even less exact in calculation than the economic situation at present.
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  At first sight, there are attractive arguments for being part of a wider union, thus giving one a political influence, enabling competition with Russia and the United States, or with China looming around the corner. But a number of points bother me.
  Is not the attitude we are adopting somewhat conceited and arrogant? Will it not be construed in the countries of Europe as a suggestion that, as has been plainly stated in this debate, we shall go in as it were to run Europe? I do not think that that will be allowed for one moment. Again, what is Europe? How do we define it? Shall we always exclude countries like Finland and the satellites? That is what is likely to occur if we join the E.E.C. in its present form. We do not yet know how exclusive the club is to be, but if it is exclusive in any sense we shall find it harder to develop relations with the rest of the world.
  As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said, he is an internationalist. So are we all. If there is one process we wish to see expedited it is that of détente between the free and and the Communist nations. I fancy—if I believe wrongly I hope that someone will tell me—that entry into the Community might make the process of détente all the more difficult to pursue.
  Furthermore, it is not and it has never been only the members of a club or a debating chamber who can exercise influence upon it. To say that individual Powers can have no voice in this age of super Powers is as misleading as to say that individuals in history have never had and can never have, now or in the future, influence upon a nation.
  I am anxious too about old friendships. Much as I enjoyed and respected the Chancellor's speech, I thought that both he and the Foreign Secretary, who spoke yesterday, skipped over the question of this modern Commonwealth of ours. Dr. Johnson said that a man should keep his friendships in proper repair. We have never given a lead of any kind since the war to the Commonwealth, so it is not surprising that some countries in it have looked elsewhere for succour.
  My business, as is well known in the House, is banking and investment. I would sooner invest for the future in Australia, Canada or Singapore than in

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  some of the alternative situations, with all that that implies. In talking of friendships I have no wish to leave out other nations. It is only a question of not being able to catalogue them all in the time available.
  Let us not forget E.F.T.A., to which we have not given much of a lead either in recent years. I hope that the Prime Minister will say at least that we shall do our utmost, whatever the success of our own negotiations may be, to look after our friends in E.F.T.A. who have stood by us these years.
  I am anxious about the position as it may eventually arise in respect of the supranational political institutions. We have had a surfeit of vagueness from the Government on this subject. It would be a good thing, as my right hon Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) suggested in a letter to The Times, if some time—not now perhaps—when they are ready to "come clean", the Government produced a White Paper on the political aspects also, and especially the subject of those institutions.
  I turn now to economic matters. There are those who say that we should not concern ourselves with the minutiae. I am often sympathetic to this argument, particularly in terms of the political debate between opposing sides of the House. But every beach is made of many grains of sand.
  There have been many criticisms of the White Paper, most of them deserved, but it has had value, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) suggested. I put forward other reasons, the chief being that it has provoked a new discussion. That is all to the good, for the public believes itself to be very much uninformed, and it is certainly much confused by these questions. What is more, it is equally uncertain of the attitude of the political parties. It does not care for what it has assumed to be a dogmatism on the part of the Opposition, nor for what one can perhaps describe politely as the flexibility of the Prime Minister.
  Whatever right hon. and hon. Members may say about their intention to disclose their views in their election addresses, the electorate feels that it has a lack of voting choice in the matter, and will have. It should not be assumed that if there is any
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  public or parliamentary tolerance of a start to negotiations that is an undertaking to pay the bill in the end, whatever it may be.
  Let us, as we embark on it, by all means have a successful negotiation. Let the £.s.d. of the matter be well calculated. There are those who have said that a £1,000 million a year on the balance of payments would be too much. I would go a great deal further. While we do not yet know the detail of the timing, the phasing and many other matters, I would go so far as to say that an additional annual bill of £200 million to £300 million on our balance of payments would be too much.
  But there are some things which are clear already. The first, coming out of the debate, has been that if the cost is too high, entry into the E.E.C. will be impossible to achieve for any other reason. Another matter which has become clear is that the House will not tolerate a heavy subsidisation of the inefficient agricultures of France and Germany.
  Other truths have emerged. I regretted to see in the White Paper the extensive use of the word "dynamic". I thought it as foolish as those overworked words "gritty"or"purposive". Certainly, it is true that if we join the E.E.C.—I think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer acknowledged this—we shall not automatically and necessarily enjoy a faster rate of growth than we have had. The reason for the United Kingdom's lack of growth is not that we have been outside the Common Market, but simply our balance of payments difficulties, excessive Government interference with industry and the community and, last but by no means least, a poor but, happily, changing management performance. I mean "management" in the widest sense, to include trade union practices.
  Another truth is that there is no guarantee that more competition will mean more trade. Perhaps the reverse can be the case.
  Also, the elimination of tariffs is no longer of such importance as once it was, since we have had the progressive reductions, the two latest being the Dillon and Kennedy Round. I would go much more strongly for standardisation.

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  But, all that having been said, the E.E.C. is certainly a vast market with a huge propensity to import. It is vital for us. What is said about the need for scale in manufacture, and so on, said, first, I think, in a wise speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling), is absolutely true. It is the progressive industries, chemicals, computers, modern technology that need scale. Yet it is a curiosity that although we are a little country, this United Kingdom has great international companies like Shell, Philips and Unilever and others which manage to surmount the frontiers and to do well at home and abroad.
  I will not weary the House with details of the tariff reductions we can expect, nor seek to measure the E.E.C. against anywhere else. We shall have to make a judgment on that in due course. This leads me, however, to another question.
  Is our trading policy right? Is membership of the E.E.C. being given the right priority for this country? We depend on success in world trade probably more than any other country, with the possible exception of Japan. Surely, then, it should be the duty of the Government—and I have not seen this clearly defined at any time since the war—to set out objectives which can be readily understood and plainly worked for by Ministers. The first should be the opening of world markets in general. Rather than spending time on negotiating with the E.E.C., I would sooner we put more steam behind G.A.T.T. It is clear that we are moving fast into a protective world.
  I do not understand why certain ideas which have been canvassed, such as A.F.T.A., have been neglected by both the Government and Opposition. Both have done their best to crab them publicly and privately. Why should it be wrong to examine all the possible alternatives in depth? That has not been done. It is insufficient and inadequate to say that these additional ideas, which could have been pursued all the time our application was lying on the table, are simply inappropriate and then to do nothing about them. So I would put the opening of world markets in general first.
  Second, I put the assessment of the potential growth markets of the future,
  1300
  a diagnosis of them and an assault on them by business led, prodded and encouraged by Government.
  Third I put the provision of adequate payments facilities of one sort or another. It has taken us seven years from the initiative taken, as I remember very well, having been there myself, at the I.M.F. meeting of 1962 to get the S.D.R. scheme off the ground. I include under this head freerer exchanges, credits and the like. They are just as important as opening markets.
  I do not believe that Governments have been anything like sufficiently clear-minded about these matters, and I deplore the way in which, in the past and today, our commercial ventures on the part of the Government stand still while successive negotiations take place. We shall be the stronger for pursuing alternatives at the present time.
  This is not only a selfish proposal. We have a duty to open our markets here to the less complex manufactures of the developing countries, while ourselves concentrating on the more sophisticated manufactures. We have set the world an example in the case of Lancashire. I wish this were more clearly seen as a development of Government policy.
  It is not our destiny to be locked in any exclusive club. The greatest political issue is not whether or not we join the E.E.C. It is the growing disparity between the living standards of the developed and developing countries. It would be wrong if that were excluded from consideration of the implications of entering the Common Market.
  I do not believe that the case for entry is proven, as they say in Scotland. The economic balance sheet cannot yet be struck. The political cost can and should be counted. The Minister without Portfolio said last night that it will not be a disaster if we do not enter the Common Market. I am coming to believe that we do best as a nation when we are alone, and so it may be again.
  8.20 p.m.
  Mr. Patrick Gordon Walker: As usual, the right hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) made a thoughtful and carefully argued speech. I will come later to some of his points, because I believe that at this late stage of the

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  debate one should concentrate one's remarks on a few basic points.
  I start with what I regard as the only really important economic question, namely, the effect on our balance of payments of opening negotiations and joining the Common Market. We know about the impact burdens which will arise during the transition period, but little attention has been paid in the debate to the fact that, during the same transition period, some of the benefits will begin to accrue which arise from joining a larger market and an area of greater growth.
  The right hon. Member for Taunton seemed to deny that there was a relationship between size of market and growth. There are exceptions to everything in this world. Switzerland is an exception to everything. But there has been an extraordinarily clear co-relation between size of markets and growth. It is difficult to explain why the Industrial Revolution started in this country. The reason it started here instead of somewhere else was that the United Kingdom was the biggest and most complete common market in the world.
  The main purpose of our negotiations should be twofold. First, we should try to secure such a balance that the benefits and detriments of joining cancel out during the transition period. Both the White Paper and the C.B.I. say that this should be possible. They both show that a balance would be struck if during the transition period our own gross national product increased in a few years by considerably less than 1 per cent. faster than it would otherwise increase. We can reasonably expect this because of the association with the greater growth market.
  However, I must admit that any calculation about cancelling out benefits and detriments must depend on guesses, estimates and extrapolations which may turn out to be wrong. Therefore, a second major aim in the negotiations must be to try to get an agreement that if the assumptions which we and the Six and the other candidate members make turn out to be seriously wrong the whole matter would be looked at again towards the end of the transition period. We should be able to secure agreement on this.
  We should not assume that the E.E.C. is hostile to Britain, that it is bent on
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  driving the hardest possible bargain with us and trying to impose intolerable burdens on us and determined to take the last pound of flesh from us. This is the argument which underlies the speeches made against our negotiating. It would be entirely against both the interests and the nature of the Common Market to behave in a hostile way and to try to hurt us to the greatest possible extent. The E.E.C. has an interest in having a viable Britain as a member which would make the maximum contribution and not an unviable Britain which would not make a contribution but would be a drain on them.
  Secondly—as regards its nature—the Community has an unwritten rule which they all observe—that they do not allow their strict and written rules to drive any member into economic difficulty. A recent example of that is that both Germany and France were granted for two years an abatement of the sacrosanct common agricultural policy, which everybody says cannot be changed at all. If our negotiations succeeded, as a member of the Common Market we would have to do our utmost to carry out any fair, negotiated settlement which we made at the beginning. But if the calculations on which the settlement was based proved wrong, we should be able to invoke and expect the same treatment which Germany and France recently received, and we would have to be ready to extend the same treatment to any other member which got into grave difficulties because of the strict interpretation of the rules.
  I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Be1per (Mr. George Brown) and others that the political factors are the decisive ones. It is one's feel for the politics of the matter which determines the economic arguments that one uses. There is one fact from which we cannot escape: by withdrawing from east of Suez we became a European Power, and we must act as such. From that moment—and it is irreversible—it became a major British national interest to associate ourselves with a new centre of power so that we could again have influence and a rôle to play in the world. I have no doubt that an enlarged E.E.C. is the only centre of power in which Britain can play an important part which is in accord with its new status as a European Power. Withdrawing from east of Suez was a

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  turning point. It changed 400 years of our history. It was a very important decision for us.
  It is necessary to join the Common Market in order to maintain the balance of world power. The decisive factor is that the United States has started to cut its commitments. President Nixon says that there will be no disengagement from Europe. But Presidents come and go. The policy of countries is determined by the trend of their interests. It would be very prudent now to reckon on a steady withdrawal of America from Europe over a period—a much longer transition period than that in respect of the Common Market negotiations.
  During this longer transition, if we are to maintain a balance in the world and keep ourselves safe we must achieve some co-ordination of European defence and foreign policy. We can do that only if we are in the Common Market. If Britain remained out, the whole of Europe, including Britain, would be exposed increasingly to grave danger.
  Federation has been mentioned, but this is not a real problem at the moment. No Common Market Government has taken any step or made any proposition about federation, but I have no doubt that it will come in the end, whether we are in or out. I want to see it come in the end, step by step, in a suitable way and I would far sooner it came in a Community of which Britain was a member, so that she could help to shape it, than in a Community with Britain outside, and this being done in a way which was harmful to us.
  The political and economic factors are inseparable, although we talk about them separately; and the fact that we could bring great political benefit to Europe by membership must help our economic negotiations.
  The conclusion I come to, on balance, after a great deal of thought, is that we can approach the negotiations prepared to secure our proper national interest and confident that a bargain can be struck from which both sides will derive ever increasing benefits and advantages, both political and economic.
  8.30 p.m.
  Mr. Stephen Hastings: The House always listens with great care to what the right hon. Mem-
  1304
  ber for Leyton (Mr. Gordon Walker), whose record we all know well, has to say on these matters. If he will forgive me, I will follow his example and this is a late stage in the debate and there may be one or two more hon. Members to speak. He said that by withdrawing from east of Suez this country has become a European Power. I would prefer to look at that the other way round. We always were a European Power, but with far extended responsibilities. One of our difficulties is to persuade the Europeans to look at the world in the same way as we did formerly.
  I am glad to see the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster on the Front Bench, because I want to speak about the negotiations which many of us hope that he will undertake. The Foreign Secretary said yesterday:
  "…if one wants to enter the Community the right way to do it is through the front door, through an agreement negotiated under the relevant Article of the Treaty of Rome."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th February 1970; Vol. 796, c. 998.]
  Nobody could quarrel with that as it stands, but it is an over-simplification of the problems that the right hon. Gentleman will face, and I will try to explain why.
  I was formerly a very strong supporter of Europe, in so far as I was able, even before I came to this House. It was one of the main motive forces for my going into politics. There was a great deal of talk yesterday, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) said, by both protagonists about the merit of consistency. I fear, like him, that I may appear to some extent inconsistent but, as he said, I also am unrepentant about this. We are not talking about the story of a week or a month, but about 10 years, and, if one counts the negotiations which led up to Messina, a good deal longer than that.
  So far, the argument in the debate has been largely about the effects upon us: should we venture bravely across the Channel into this den of foreigners and thieves for the sake of our souls—certainly not for the sake of our pockets, that is clear from the White Paper—or should we stay in our island fastness? There is something archetypal about the argument and to me it is only half the argument.

  1305
  What I want to ask is what has happened within the Common Market in this time? What were the objectives to begin with, are they still the same? What progress has been made towards reaching them and, in the light of that, what should our objectives now be in these negotiations? It is my contention that from the White Paper and from what the Government have said we do not really know. The vagueness of the White Paper and the Government statements leads me to think that the criticisms of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith) yesterday when he talked about "a supranational Eldorado" are justified. After years of stoic self-sacrifice we shall get all sorts of mystical and material benefits which cannot now be quantified.
  What then were the objectives? First and foremost, so far as I was concerned, we needed to avoid the outbreak of a Third World War started fratricidally between nations with basically the same civilisation. I do not think that this is any longer a valid objective; nobody realistically can believe that such a thing will happen again, so that is out. The second one, as is clear from the Treaty, was about unity. The first proposition in the Preamble says that all those concerned are:
  "Determined to establish the foundations of an ever closer union among the European peoples."
  What progress has there been towards elimination of national boundaries, towards federalism, and so forth? I would submit that in reality there has been very little. Even after 10 years and three rounds of negotiations about agricultural policy, which everybody is agreed is the key to the whole affair, there has been no real agreement and such agreement as there was has been heavily qualified by France and Germany since their last round of talks in Brussels. I believe that The Guardian was justified in saying—and that newspaper is nothing if not a supporter of going into Europe—on the 11th February:
  "It is not Europe. It is six nation States behaving like 19th-century monarchies."
  There is a good deal of truth in that.
  The third objective concerns defence and I will quote briefly from the last proposition of the Preamble:
  "Resolved by the establishment of this combination of resources to strengthen the safe-
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  guards of peace and liberty and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts."
  That, in my terms, means defence. But what has happened within that 10-year period? Italy has teetered on the edge of Communist-dominated government. France has nearly succumbed to an anarchist revolution and, in addition, has left N.A.T.O. It is not directly related, but it cannot be said to have advanced the cause of integrated European defence very much. And if Italy or France, or both, had succumbed to these political events, does anybody believe that the Common Market would have done anything about it? I believe it would have recoiled in horror from any such suggestion. To my mind this is not in modern terms safeguarding peace and liberty. There has been very little progress on this matter over 10 years.
  The fourth objective is an integrated monetary system, about which we have heard much during this debate. I put this high on the list because what we are talking about is the creation of European power. If defence forces represent power, then so also does money. What has happened in this respect? Against the provisions of the Treaty two of its most powerful member States, France and Germany, have revalued without any warning whatever—Germany up and France down. Since then there have been certain proposals for the mutual support of currencies mentioned by the Chancellor of the Exchequer today and by one or two hon. Gentlemen yesterday. But after a period of 10 years they are still just proposals.
  It could be said that the Bank for International Settlements has made more progress than this. It could certainly be said that the International Monetary Fund has made more progress than this. The United States and South Africa have carried out some hard bargaining about these matters, but the Common Market has achieved practically nothing at all. Indeed I question whether they have done as well as the Lombards did in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries when they more or less ran the monetary system of Europe. Therefore, in many respects the Common Market has signally failed, and in these circumstances we should not regard the rules and regulations as sacrosanct in these negotiations.

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  If the achievements could be proved and shown, then the answer would be "Yes", but if the true picture is as I put it, and I hope I am not exaggerating, then the answer would be "No".
  Now, what are our objectives in the negotiations? To join, it is said, "if the conditions are right". This is not good enough. Of course, the Government cannot give any break figure in this great bracket between £100 million and £1,100 million in the White Paper because it is not yet defined what it is they are after. It is not simply a question of sacrificing sovereignty without being able to quantify the long-term dividend. It is a question of sacrificing sovereignty without knowing what we want in exchange for it. This principally is what worries me.
  What is the fresh approach to be, if it is legitimate to suggest a fresh approach at this stage? I put my proposal forward as suggestive. I cannot be precise since I have not the information. First, we should redefine the dangers to Europe, and unquestionably they are there. They are, first, external and internal defence against the Soviet Union both from the point of view of the spread of Soviet power over the world and subversion within Europe. Secondly, there is the assault of American managerial and business control of industry—though not of capital, for most of the capital used within the Common Market has been generated there or is in the form of Euro-dollars. This is the subject of that famous book which should be required reading for anyone interested in these matters, Le Défi Americain, or The American Challenge, by M. ServanSchreiber.
  To take the first danger: if the Common Market wants to safeguard "peace and liberty", it must recognise that the danger to the West is worldwide and does not rest simply on the Eastern front of Europe. Secondly, it must recognise that the end of the Pax Americana is the beginning of reality. Thirdly, we must all recognise that the danger of a Communist take-over within a member State is a possibility in the light of the experience of 10 years, and I for one would like to know during these negotiations what would be done about it.
  Suppose that, after preliminary consultations, perhaps before the main negotia-
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  tions started, we got to a stage where we stopped arguing about the levies, the agricultural contributions or the weighted voting or whatever and said to them, "With the full agreement of all of those concerned, gentlemen, we are empowered to invite you to assist us to maintain a European base in the Far East, the Middle East or wherever". Suppose that we were in a position to say,"Hands up for a brigade or regiment from France or Germany to help us in the Far East, or even a Luxembourg anti-aircraft battery". What would be the answer to that? Almost certainly it would be "No". If they said "No", we should have to look more carefully at what they ask us to pay. Let us accept that we have a big argument to conduct on our side.
  To pass to Le Déli American, here it seems that the Common Market has had relatively little effect so far. When in trouble, European firms run, not to each other, but to American firms. On occasions European Governments do the same. If we are to devise practical objectives about this during the negotiations, we have to realise certain facts and try and persuade our European partners to do the same. The first of them is that any real advance towards supra-nationalism has so far not been because of the ideas of politicians, bureaucrats or dreamers, but more than any other single development, because of that which was mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) and subsequently by my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton—the international companies. There are already an impressive number of them, and there are several in this country. They all operate within the Common Market, but I question whether any single one arose as a result of the Common Market. There is only one new European giant, and that is Agfa-Gernert, which, in any case, is half Swiss.
  I come now to the technological argument, and the right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) laid great stress upon this yesterday. Talking about aircraft, the nuclear energy programme and, subsequently, computers, he said:
  "If there had been common purchasing and development of computers we could save £170 million by 1975."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th February, 1970; Vol. 796, c. 1040.]
  That may be so, but I do not think that

  1309
  he took account of the scale of the problem.
  Taking computers, for instance, an O.E.C.D. report of a few years ago made it clear that for a firm to afford to amortise the research and development necessary to build integrated circuits today it would have to be able to sell a million a year. But the whole Common Market could not provide an annual order for more than half a million, if that. It gives some idea of the scale of these things. I do not think that in the time scale that the right hon. Gentleman was thinking about, or indeed has been hinted at in the White Paper, such an advance is possible.
  Let me try to make clear what I mean. Paragraph 73 of the White Paper states that
  "a beginning has been made on studies of possible future technological co-operation in Europe, through the Working Group of the Community's Medium-Term Economic Policy Committee, under the chairmanship of Professor Aigrain. Proposals have been made by this Group for new co-operative European studies and research in the fields of computers…"
  It does not really make sense. But nevertheless, I.B.M., Honeywell, Univac and I.C.L. are in there. I.C.L. has made a very promising beginning in Europe. There are moves afoot now to set up a similar kind of organisation in software.
  But none of this has much to do with our joining the Common Market. The Economic Policy Committee is pleased to talk to us about these matters—that is made clear in the White Paper—not because of our application, but because, of our know-how. The growth of the international company may in the end do naturally what Communism seeks to do by force and tyranny—to soften and merge the barriers of nations. It is to be encouraged, but it has little to do with our negotiations.
  Of course, there could be advantages in this sphere from our joining. They seem to me to lie in the same range used by the United States Government to stimulate research and development and innovation on so vast a scale. They lie beyond the scope of commerce and they should be part of the price of our entry, so I believe; not something that it is hoped comes afterwards, maybe by chance.
  1310
  The kind of questions—I am not attempting to be precise about my choice of them, but I believe that I shall be able to convey what I am thinking—which I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be putting to the members of the Common Market when he sits down to negotiate are as follows. First, are you prepared to integrate your defensive effort and develop a common procurement policy Europe-wide here and now, or are you not?
  Secondly, are you prepared to vote funds for the Economic Policy Committee to place orders now for the development of software and computers to run the administration of, for instance, the Commission and the member Governments? Thirdly, are you prepared to set up a space communications programme and subscribe the necessary funds now? In both those latter cases control would have to be vested in a single project director who would call for tenders and get on with the job without interference from member Governments.
  If Europe wants to be in business with the United States and resist the American challenge, this is what the Common Market will have to do without further delay. It is no good our agreeing to subsidise its butter mountain in the hope that it may all happen in the future. It will he too late. It would be better for us to save our money and give it to the banks to help them facilitate the acquisition of companies and facilities for British international companies than to throw it away without any precision in these areas.
  The ideal of Europe was and is a great ideal. It has moved me and many others in this debate. Over the years it has conjured for me a vision of the defence of civilization—of the Knights of St. John on the walls of St. Elmo, of the song of Roland. But, with all that behind me, I find it very difficult to decide what this country should do about it at the moment. The White Paper helps not at all. They cannot work out the sums, but if they knew what their objectives were and had been able to make them precise and understandable in the White Paper then the sums might take care of themselves. There was a great deal in what my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith) said yesterday in the passage in which, I know lightheartedly, he referred to the

  1311
  difference in weight between the paper given to the Roskill Commission about the third London Airport and this White Paper.
  A great deal of what I am talking about ought to have been worked out and we ought to know the answers, but we do not. To join an expensive, quarrelsome and, to a large degree, apparently unsuccessful club is not sufficient in itself. We are asked in this debate to take note of the White Paper. Let us by all means take note and let us suggest to the Government that they take it away, clear their ideas and come back and explain to us what they really believe they are at.
  8.51 p.m.
  Mr. John Mendelson: The hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Hastings) had one great merit in his speech and that was that he actually talked about negotiations. I think that as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has been sitting dutifully on the Front Bench, as he has been for the most part of the two days, there ought to be at any rate in most speeches some reference to the negotiations for entry into the Common Market.
  I begin by referring to a strange hostility which has been shown to the White Paper in so many different circles. It is interesting to note the very hostile reaction to the Government's decision after so many demands have been made upon them inside and outside the House, to publish a document to give more information to Parliament and to the country I very much welcome both the decision to publish the White Paper and the actual implementation of that decision.
  What comment did we have from the Opposition? The right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) committed himself to the far-reaching statement that all he wanted to see in the White Paper, once it was to be published, was a short paragraph saying, "We do not know of anything useful to tell you"—and that would be the end of the White Paper. That is what he suggested yesterday. His right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition was a little more subtle today. But in a moment of aberration the right hon. Member for Barnet, who is usually quite
  1312
  cool, committed himself to this absurd and bizarre statement.
  We had hon. Members on both sides of the House—including some of my best-liked hon. Friends—equally denouncing the White Paper as useless, misleading and as alarming the country. Then we had the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe), the Leader of the Liberal Party—and I regret that he is not in his place—who was beside himself with contempt and denunciation of the White Paper.
  Why is there this conspiracy of denunciation among so many different people? What are they so anxious and so angry about? Whilst I was puzzling this problem, I read a report in "Peterborough's Diary", in the Daily Telegraph, which was later confirmed in a number of continental newspapers—and "Peterborough" is very often first with the news. The report pointed out that in the entourage of no less a person than M. Jean Rey there was a feeling of being greatly upset by the publication of this White Paper. The report from Brussels said that it was regarded there as anti-European.
  The first serious point which I want to put on record is that if there are people in the entourage of Mr. Jean Rey who so regard a first effort of telling the truth to the people of this country, we had better look again at the definition of anti-European. This has added to the disturbance which so many hon. Members have shown. What are they so angry about?
  I come now to the more intellectual kind of denunciation which we have heard. My right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. George Brown) told us that he would have done it all differently. We are becoming accustomed to that. Whether it be the Middle East, Europe, or even the innocent act of publishing a White Paper, my right hon. Friend, since he left office, would have it all done differently, the silent but implied assumption being, of course, that he would do it so much better—which is not so difficult.
  The problem facing the Government in deciding to publish the White Paper was that, unless they wanted merely to engage in an act against their own negotiating position, which is that there are things which they do not now understand or know for certain, and which depend on

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  the outcome of the negotiations, they could not publish any more than they have, in fact, published. I regard it as some element of progress that they have published the White Paper and given the people some basis to make estimates and to look into the problem.
  When my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister first announced the White Paper in a statement from the Dispatch Box, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition was immediately angry, saying that steps must now be taken in the country to make clear what all this means and that the process of education must start. In this connection, perhaps I should deal with the assumption expressed by so many hon. Members that there has been a shift of opinion against our entering the Common Market in the last few years because there has been no propaganda in favour of the Market. Nothing could be further from the truth. The pro-Market forces have disposed of much more money, they have had more organisation, they have organised many more trips to Brussels, with both Government money and money from other sources, including the Continent, than have the critics of our application. It is, therefore, quite incorrect to say that that was the reason there has been the shift of opinion.
  The Government are entitled to have their position regarding negotiations taken seriously, more seriously than some hon. Members have taken it so far. Politically, now—I think that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy knows that this is my view—whatever some of us thought in 1967, once the Government have committed themselves to opening negotiations they cannot now suddenly drop the whole enterprise and change their mind. That is academic advice to give to any Government in office. It would be impossible.
  The real argument—This point was made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery)—is about what will be in the negotiations. That is what matters now. In passing, I should like to deal quickly, before the Prime Minister returns, with the completely unwarranted attack on a small point, which the right hon. Gentleman made against my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. He said that my right hon. Friend's statement on
  1314
  Saturday has led to a very sour comment by the President of France, M. Pompidou. This is wholly incorrect, and the evidence is readily available.
  I regret that the right hon. Gentleman is not here at the moment, because I am sure that, being a fair-minded man, he would have accepted my correction. The guidelines of the attitude of the President of France on his Washington visit were laid down within the last fortnight, and he has taken great care to give two major interviews to leading American newspapers. These were put into print in the middle of last week, on the Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, long before anyone knew what the Prime Minister would say in his speech on Saturday, or on Sunday. They had nothing to do with it.
  The President of France decided to harden the French line before his trip to Washington. On patriotic grounds, at least; I am sure that the Leader of the Opposition would expect every responsible member of the Opposition, in what is a difficult situation, whichever way one looks at it, to withdraw such an attack and to say plainly that the atttitude of the President of France had nothing to do with my right hon. Friend's speech, of which he had no foreknowledge when making up his mind about the line which he would take.
  What is this French position? It does not look much different from that adopted under President de Gaulle. It is very relevant to this debate, before the Front Benches take over, that some of us on the back benches should be able to give our analysis of the situation. The French position, according to the President, has always been that Britain must accept what the Common Market countries have done so far as a test of our real sincerity in wanting to join the Economic Community. There was no mention of that in the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper and certainly very little mention of it in the speech by the Foreign Secretary yesterday.
  The Foreign Secretary was also exaggerating a position held by a number of people in 1967. I see that my right hon. Friend has just entered the Chamber, so I had better repeat that yesterday he reiterated the assumption made by a number of people in 1967 when he implied that if we do not go in—and to be

  1315
  fair to him he saw certain conditions which he would regard as unacceptable, like the rest of the Government—then we would become very isolated.
  My right hon. Friend did not use those words, but the cliché of a small offshore island of Europe made its reappearance. This is an exaggeration. We ought not to be frightened by it. It is not a very good strengthening of our negotiating position, before the start of negotiations, when our chief spokesman on foreign policy makes that sort of point.
  On economic affairs there can be no doubt, in spite of what the right hon. Member for Barnet said yesterday, about the usefulness of the White Paper. Its usefulness is that it allows some informed discussion to take place upon the possibilities which we can see when we look at the negotiating position of the French and other members of the Community. It is not good enough for the right hon. Gentleman to denounce the attempts to provide such a basis for discussion, because it is essential that before negotiations start the people should be fully informed about the details of what is being done in their name.
  The position has changed very little. The Leader of the Opposition said today that in his opinion the agricultural arrangements were not negotiable. This must be tested against the opinion of the Prime Minister when he replies tonight to the debate. I do not accept that we must go into these negotiations talking only about transitional arrangements. Many of us who voted against the application in 1967 were afraid that negotiations would be meaningless because they could only be about transitional terms.
  I urge the Government, in the negotiations, to regard themselves as being free to reopen the discussion on all the circumstances, permanent arrangements as well as transitional. It would be wrong to abandon at the beginning, as the Leader of the Opposition implied, any attempt to start negotiating everything that is implied by British membership. I can see a good reason for that. The Common Market countries spent 4½ years before concluding their original treaty, carefully arranging each other's interests. It would be wrong, however greatly any hon. Member may be convinced about the importance of the
  1316
  political arguments, to underestimate the importance of the economic arguments
  On the political side, what disturbed me most was the view expressed by the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys), my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper, and others, that they are looking forward to a close military alliance based upon the Common Market. This is in complete contradiction of what the Prime Minister has said time and again, because the implication of what was said by these two right hon. Members is that there is to be a new military alliance, which is bound to include a new nuclear command.
  This is in complete contradiction of Government policy. The Government have no mandate whatsoever to deal with this issue at any stage of the negotiations. The Government's position is clear. This country is part of N.A.T.O. The only nuclear command which the Prime Minister finds acceptable and useful is the nuclear command under N.A.T.O.
  We have been told this afternoon that the economic arrangements are not very important, and that what matters is the rôle which this country can play in a new foreign policy and military alliance. This has been mentioned freely for the first time in this debate, and I regard it as far more important than discussions about federalism and all the rest of it. I agree with the Prime Minister that this is a matter with which future generations may have to deal. What is much more important, and what is here and now, is these plans for a new military alliance.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Belper said that in this Community, in such a new alliance, we would be in a position to create a bridge between East and West. My right hon. Friend is ill-informed since he left office if that is his true opinion, because if there is one thing which the Eastern countries fear more than anything else—and this is a geniune fear—is a new nuclear pact, of which Germany is a full member. However insincere Soviet negotiators and diplomats may be in some matters which they put forward, there is no doubt that they are sincere when they say that what they fear most is a new nuclear alliance, with Germany as a full member. [Interruption.]
  If that policy were carried out it would present the greatest possible threat to

  1317
  the attempts being made by Chancellor Brandt and others to create a better détente between East and West. There is a fallacy in the argument that we can play a much more effective rôle, politically and internationally, only if we are members of the Common Market. The fact is that the present position of the United Kingdom and American Governments in wishing for better relations between East and West has played an important part in opening the way for the new West German Government to start these negotiations.
  This is not unrelated to the general feeling in the United States and the Soviet Union that some attempt should be made to create better relations between East and West. But, on the other hand, nothing would create more suspicion in the minds of all the Eastern European countries than the setting up of a new nuclear command within the Common Market countries. They would regard this as a direct threat to the hopes of a détente which have been expressed by so many statesmen in Western countries.
  It is unrealistic to advise the Government to drop the negotiations—they are committed to them, and they must go into them—but the House and the country are entitled to a clear understanding that the Government have no mandate to accept all the permanent arrangements to which the Six have come If there is a hardening of the French position—and as I read the Press conference replies given by President Pompidou in Washington there is—the Government have a bounden duty to take the House into their confidence and to keep the country informed. They must insist on conditions which are acceptable to the people of this country, both in the long-term, and in the short-term. Only in that way can it be meaningful to accept the Prime Minister's repeated statement that if conditions are unacceptable he will not advise the House to accept the proposal to go into the Common Market.
  9.10 p.m.
  Mr. Richard Wood: During the last two days, with the single exception of the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson), the White Paper does not seem to have made one friend. Even the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary seemed a little lukewarm, suggesting that its truthfulness was
  1318
  bound to be in inverse ratio to its precision.
  Perhaps the document will become known as the "Sorry White Paper", because in its 46 pages there are 47 apologies. I had not realised that there were so many ways of regretfully expressing uncertainty. They rise to a crescendo in the final pages, until we read, in the penultimate paragraph of a paper styled "An Economic Assessment":
  "The major uncertain factor still is the balance of economic advantage…"
  So uncertain does this remain, for all the White Paper's 46 pages and two days of debate, that there must be broad agreement with the assertion in the final paragraph that
  "This White Paper demonstrates the need for negotiations…"
  to determine more accurately the elements of the great equation which can be accurately calculated before Britain takes the decision to enter or to refuse to enter the Community.
  As the Foreign Secretary said yesterday:
  "…we shall be substantially nearer to the answers…at the end of negotiations than at the beginning."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th February, 1970; Vol. 796, c. 1000.]
  Indeed, when we come to know the exact contribution to the agricultural fund that will be required of Britain, our present uncertainty will be greatly diminished.
  We would be greatly helped by more information about the accuracy of the White Paper estimates of increases in the cost of food. These estimates, of which we have had some discussion, are considerably higher than any of their predecessors and they are offered, as some of my hon. Friends have pointed out, without any observable mathematical argument to sustain them.
  They are much higher than the estimate of the E.E.C. Commission. It is remarkable that the most pessimistic assumptions in the C.B.I. document, which presumably reflected some discussion with the National Farmers' Union, should correspond with the most optimistic expectations in the Government's White Paper.
  It is common ground that an entrance fee would have to be paid, that certain prices would rise and that only the process of negotiation could improve the

  1319
  accuracy of some of the estimates that we can now make. Parliament and the nation therefore await the further information which negotiations alone can make available.
  Meanwhile, we had a brilliant and statemanlike analysis from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. From my point of view, that analysis of our situation stirred the hearts and illuminated the minds of those who want to understand this problem better. It certainly raised our eyes above the gloomy horizons of the Prime Minister who has, I am sorry to say, been operating several leagues below the sublime heights of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  The Prime Minister was not present to hear some of the robust common sense of his right hon. Friend the Member for Be1per (Mr. George Brown) but I wondered, as the right hon. Gentleman listened to his right hon. Friend the Chancellor, whether he was reconsidering the doubts that his remarks last Saturday are bound to cast on the sincerity of the Government's intentions on both sides of the Channel, to say nothing of the doubts which they seem to have implanted in the mind of the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell). I think that the Prime Minister was absent from the Chamber when his right hon. Friend said that he would not comment on the attitude of the Prime Minister because he had no idea where the Prime Minister stood.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): I came in.
  Mr. Wood: This is the difficulty that we and the country share with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Easington, because if the Prime Minister suggests that there are electoral advantages in posing as a relatively tough negotiator, might he not shortly find it irresistible to reap the more tempting electoral harvest of masquerading as the saviour of Britain from the undesirable short-term effects of entry?
  After the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I hope that we can dismiss from our minds suspicions of this kind. Certainly, our application might still fail, the terms may be plainly unacceptable, and we shall not go into Europe. But I doubt whether our children or our
  1320
  grandchidren will lightly forgive us if they have the slightest suspicion that this great decision was subordinated to the lesser considerations of how the election, this year or next year, could be won.
  So grave would be the judgment, both of our successors in this country and of our contemporaries in Europe, that, despite the doubts sown by the Prime Minister's weekend speech, I cannot believe that such a cynical subordination could ever be contemplated by the Government of a great people.
  I have little doubt that, whatever the political complexion of the Government of Britain, we shall pursue negotiations determined to succeed and to win entry for Britain on such terms as would allow us to make the most fruitful and constructive contribution to the future of Europe.
  Whatever the course of negotiations, when they are completed, perhaps by the end of 1971, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) made clear, the area of precision in the far larger field of uncertainty will still be relatively small. Certainly, the course of negotiations may help us to assess the principal price of entry—the cost, across the exchanges, of the British contribution to Community finance; for not only is the amount of our contribution negotiable, but the pattern of Community expenditure may change.
  As to this pattern, there seem to me to be two important possible developments which are by no means inconceivable. Both would considerably lighten our burden. The first is that agriculture in the Community could undergo considerable reform and the present cost of supporting this could be substantially lowered.
  The second, and perhaps the more likely, is that activity within the Community might well expand to include fields in which Britain would draw back a more significant return. My hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland (Mr. Jopling) suggested yesterday that a larger proportion of the Community's budget might be devoted to things like technological development or regional policy, from which Britain could expect to benefit. If this took place, the burden of the present predominantly agriculture support, from which we benefit little, would be lightened.

  1321
  There are other factors which the White Paper attempts to measure, but which are certain to remain indefinite even when negotiations are complete. We shall be able to guess more accurately, but we shall not know, the likely extent of the increase or decrease in the cost of imported food; and we shall not be able to assess the exact size of what are known as the "impact effects", in spite of the assertion of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith) that these are the "only measurable effects".
  In fact, the White Paper seems to have been dangerously and uncharacteristically bold in even attempting an estimate, let alone giving it a "phoney" air of exactitude. The right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), who is even bolder than the White Paper, promptly doubled the estimate.
  I find these things far more difficult for forecast than either of the right hon. Gentlemen,because the initial effects upon our invisible trade are bound to depend upon a whole series of variable assumptions—the rise in the cost of living itself; the effect of the cost of living on wage increases; the effect of wage increases on export prices; and the effect on potential exports of higher prices.
  In the fairly recent past, from 1963 to 1967, earnings increased by 6 per cent. a year, but our export prices went up annually by only 2 per cent. This suggests that the effect on export prices of a small increase in earnings might be encouragingly small.
  Little light will be shed by the negotiations on the effect of entry on capital movements and the effect on invisible earnings, although the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) thought them likely to be considerable. In the very nature of things, there is no hope of knowing, until long after the negotiations have ended, the most important of all the factors, which the White Paper treats with some enthusiasm in general terms but makes no attempt to estimate. In the opinion of most of us, it is the dynamic effects of membership that will, one way or the other, determine the economic advantage or disadvantage of entry.
  But if we think it probable, as do the hon. and learned Member for Dulwich
  1322
  (Mr. S. C. Silkin), the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery), that our economy will grow quicker inside than outside the Six; if we believe, with my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Dodds-Parker), that an enlarged Community including Britain would make possible a larger and more fruitful expenditure on research and development; if we believe that long-term investments in economies of scale would become consistently easier to make; if we believe that our share of exports to the E.E.C. is likely to rise more rapidly than our imports from the Six; if we believe, with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, that in principle the junction of a smaller market with a big one normally brings greater proportionate benefits to the smaller than the larger; if we believe that all these things will be among the results of British membership, the economic case for entry, uncertain as it must remain, begins to appear a great deal stronger than the White Paper would suggest.
  But these expectations, clearly, cannot be translated into reality until well after negotiations end, and until after a decision has been taken to enter the Community. Therefore, those who argue that this must be and must remain a gamble are quite right. Of course it is a gamble; but even those who never bet on the horses take gambles every day of their lives. I think that "risk" is a more respectable word. We cannot avoid risk, and would not get very far if we did.
  Even if we make the judgment that the price of entry is too high and refuse to go in, we shall still be taking the risk of having made the wrong decision and subsequently finding life unexpectedly bleak outside the Community, with decisions taken by the Six and we ourselves left out. In this matter, as one paragraph of the White Paper specifically stated, the stakes are very high; but if it is complete certainty we are after we shall seek it in vain, not only now but after the negotiations are over.
  Meanwhile, our search for the right decision and our approach to probably the most important judgment most of us will make in this place is set against a movement of public opinion which has grown, and is probably still growing, more

  1323
  hostile to the prospect of British membership. Whether or not this hostility is more closely related to the likely increase in the cost of living or other potential effects, we cannot tell, but we all know that deep anxieties exist.
  Those of us who believe that on acceptable terms membership of the Common Market would be greatly to Britain's advantage share an obligation to explain much more clearly than has been possible in recent years why a very large number of hon. Members, not usually wholly insensitive to public opinion, are still convinced that this, on the right terms, is the right course to take. For the decision is one that must be taken by this Parliament, or the next, not because hon. Members or Members of another place have a monopoly or even a superior gift of wisdom—such propositions might be easily and perhaps embarrassingly disproved—but because our system of representative government makes it impossible for us to abdicate from our responsibilities.
  Whatever our decision, it will be a long time after we take it before we have sufficient information to prove ourselves right or wrong. Even if we could miraculously judge now the future balance of economic advantage, the equation would be dangerously incomplete without the addition of completely different but powerful considerations with which the White Paper, being an economic assessment, makes no attempt to deal.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) and others asked for another White Paper outlining the political implications, but those implications have been strongly argued by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and others. They have shown that it is difficult enough to produce a coherent balance sheet of economic gains and losses, but that it becomes impossible to weigh a political advantage against an economic price. Whatever the economic balance, there does seem the possibility of a greater harvest of political gain through membership than in any alternative international framework.
  Failure of our application to join would no doubt spur this country with a challenge which, I hope, we should courageously accept and successfully
  1324
  meet, but I believe that the judgment of the White Paper is correct—that
  "in that case, the whole world would have lost a contribution to its peace and prosperity that neither Britain nor the countries of the European Communities can make separately".
  The unity of Europe is an objective, as my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, Langstone (Mr. Ian Lloyd) said yesterday, that men have tried to achieve in one way or another for more than 1,000 years. Even if the present Community expanded to include all the nations of Western Europe, we should have fulfilled, as the right hon. Member for Belper said, only half the task of building a united Europe.
  None of us can foresee the possible regroupings of world power between now and the end of the century. In the lifetime of most of us here, nations have moved almost unbelievably from hostility to friendship. Some, sadly, have drifted in the opposite direction. But a recurrence of the European disaster which twice in a single generation tore the Continent and much of the world apart has already become unthinkable. One reason it has become unthinkable, however splendid the logic of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), is the new political structure of Europe over the last two decades.
  It may be, by building soundly on foundations already laid, as the Foreign Secretary suggested yesterday, that Britain and her neighbours might begin to be able to dismantle some of the barriers which still divide Europe into two suspicious halves, making equally unthinkable a conflict between East and West and equally fruitful the collaboration between them.
  Finally, in the framework of a united Europe, I believe that the present efforts which we and other nations make to raise the standards of living and the standards of life in nations poorer than ourselves can pale into insignificance besides the massive contribution that, together, we could make to bring help and hope to millions in other parts of the world.
  9.27 p.m.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): Everyone who has spoken in the debate has recognised that, for the past two days, we have been discussing

  1325
  one of the most momentous issues facing Britain. Whatever the different viewpoints expressed—and there have been very wide-ranging speeches—they have reflected this realisation. I am sorry that, because of the commitments to our Yugoslav visitors, I missed some of the speeches yesterday, but I have had the opportunity of catching up with them since.
  The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition made a speech today with which I and I think many other hon. Members found ourselves in very considerable agreement—at any rate, for the first 45 minutes of it. He was right, I think, as were my right hon. Friends the Foreign Secretary, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to deal with some of the wider aspects of the case for and against entry, going far beyond those on which the economic assessment has been dealt with in the White Paper, particularly the political issues—the question of the greater political unity of Europe and the question of Europe's influence in the world.
  I agreed with a great deal of the vision which the right hon. Gentleman expressed. Many of us have tried to express, in different words and in different formulations, what he was saying today. I agreed particularly with his rejection of the charge that the Common Market, particularly with Britain in it, is likely to develop on an inward-looking basis. I think that he was right to talk about the remarkable record of the Common Market over the past 10 years, in its fostering of overseas aid to a very large part of the developing world. We believe, and this was the basis of his own negotiations a few years ago, that what the Six have agreed for themselves in respect of developing countries with which they have been historically associated, is likely to be also the pattern of an enlarged Community in respect of those areas of the developing world where, for example, we have had special responsibilities.
  I believe, as the right hon. Gentleman said, that the Kennedy Round has shown the willingness of the Six to embark on fundamental liberalisation of trade, in this case exclusively between advanced countries. British entry, with the distinctive window on the world which we
  1326
  have, because of our Commonwealth and other connections, would enrich the Communities, not endanger them. That is where some within Europe in the past few years have been so wrong. I agree with his statement about political aspirations and equally his realistic reply—and many of us have tried to say this in different words—to those who hope, and I know that there are others who fear, that joining the Communities means the adoption now or in the foreseeable future of some, I think he called it, "blueprint for political federation". Most of us would agree with what he said about that.
  Then there was his exposition of the argument about sovereignty, his views that we should be prepared—I am not sure whether I got the phrase down right —to give "a limited element of sovereignty" to negotiate something greater and finer for ourselves, for Europe and the world. I tried to express the same thought in one of our earliest debates on the Common Market on 3rd August, 1961, when I said that the whole history of political progress is a history of gradual abandonment of national sovereignty. I said then that we abrogated national sovereignty to a degree when we joined the United Nations.
  I said then that some people would talk about world government in one breath and then start drooling about the need to preserve national sovereignty in the next. I went on to say:
  "The question is not whether sovereignty remains absolute or not, but in what way one is prepared to sacrifice sovereignty, to whom and for what purpose…whether any proposed surrender of sovereignty will advance our progress to the kind of world that we want to see."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd August, 1961; Vol. 645, c. 1667.]
  It is that thought, and our several positions and viewpoints on whether a limited transfer of sovereignty is for the good of Britain, Europe and mankind, or is harmful to it, that will largely determine the position of each hon. Member on this question.
  I would finally refer to what the right hon. Gentleman said about timing when he rejected the views of those who say that this is not the time. I feel, and many hon. Members have expressed their agreement with this, that it is the time, more than ever before. Because, whatever may have been the position in 1967

  1327
  or five years earlier, there are none in Europe or elsewhere who any longer doubt our economic strength, our vigour and our industrial competitiveness. At the very moment when, after years of dispute, the Six are ready to sit down with us, to spurn them now would be to add a very large and significant chapter to the historical record of missed opportunities.
  The Motion before us is about the White Paper and there have been a number of questions asked and points raised about it. I want to pick up the main questions in the debate and seek to answer them. The first question is: was it right, was it necessary, to embark on the preparation of this White Paper? I do not think there has been much suggestion that we were wrong to embark on this exercise. As the right hon. Gentleman reminded us this afternoon, when he and the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal Party and I, and others, spoke at Guildhall last July he stressed this point when he said:
  "Every citizen is entitled to have the fullest information available on these and other implications of membership of the Community."
  His words received very wide national publicity. He made the same point in answer to a question last September in Sheffield when he said:
  "The British people ought to be given every scrap of information available. It would be the greatest possible mistake if the British people went into this without having the fullest possible information."
  On the same day, the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) was reported as pressing again for this kind of information.
  I was a little surprised yesterday at the terms in which the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) spoke. He seemed to suggest that we should not have embarked on this exercise. I interrupted him and pointed out that his right hon. Friend had demanded it in very strong terms. So he then corrected himself and said that the Government were right to try to work out the figures, but when they found that it could not be done they should have said so. It is a fair point of view. But I am sure that once we had announced, as we had announced in October, that the calculations were be-hon. Gentleman wanted and said, "We ing made, if we had done what the right
  1328
  have carried the calculations so far but cannot get any meaningful answers. The figures could not be as precise and accurate as you want and therefore we are going to break off the exercise", I can imagine the reaction of the House, including that of right hon. Members opposite.
  After all, there were suggestions at various times that even the delay in bringing out the White Paper represented political interference with the statistical exercise. The House now knows that there was no political interference with the statistical exercise, and no one will say that it was slanted in any direction, certainly not in the direction of entry to the Common Market, as some apparently feared. But if we had called off the exercise there would have been the darkest and deepest suspicions, and I am sure that they would have been voiced by the right hon. Member for Barnet. I therefore conclude that the House generally agrees that it was right to produce the White Paper while reserving its traditional right to comment on it with a certain degree of brutality when it saw it.
  The next question which has been much discussed in the past two days, certainly by the right hon. Member for Barnet, is this: does the fact that there is so wide a range of costs of the adverse effects of entry mean that the final figures—indeed the whole exercise, having been done—are meaningless? There has been little criticism in these two days of the calculations set out in each of the chapters of the White Paper. The principal element in the total costing is that which relates to agricultural policy and agricultural financing. But the House knows that it is impossible to assess with any accuracy the precise form of the Community agricultural policy at the point of British entry. Even if one were bold enough to forecast what that would be, any calculation based on the levies, for example, would mean making assumptions not only about levels of target prices in the Community but about the level of world prices and the level of the price which we should be paying to our existing traditional suppliers if we were not to enter.
  I do not think that anyone would be so foolhardy as to claim that he could forecast with any degree of accuracy

  1329
  what the Community's prices will be. The prices have not even been settled for 1970–71. The discussion is now taking place against the background of very considerable argument within the Community and within the existing countries in the Community about the level of surpluses of particular products. As I have just pointed out and as the Leader of the Opposition pointed out today, any calculation about the cost must involve assumptions about the level of world prices.
  I am not sure that there has been a wide enough realisation, at any rate by some hon. Members, of the extent to which assumptions in one part of the calculation can affect the position in other parts of the calculation. Take Table 8, for example, which shows the possible cost of United Kingdom food imports on different assumptions about the size of the price gap which must be closed between United Kingdom prices, on the one hand, and E.E.C. prices, on the other hand, over a transitional period and on different assumptions about the response of British farmers to higher prices.
  Many hon. Members have said that perhaps the calculations about the British farmers' response to E.E.C. prices were too pessimistic. That may be so. There must be different assumptions about the response of British consumers to the higher prices. According to the assumptions which were made, the annual cost of food imports, excluding levies, could be £85 million less or £255 million more if we were a member of the Community than if we were not.
  This is one reason why those who have made much play with the extreme width of the estimates, on the one hand £100 million and on the other £1,100 million, are perhaps somewhat wide of the mark. The right hon. Member for Barnet made it clear that he will be opposed to accepting any deal involving a cost at the extreme £1,100 million end of the range, and clearly no one else would accept it either. There is no single estimate of £100 million or £1,100 million in the White Paper, as is made clear in paragraph 101, which says that this range is no more than the sum of the extreme points of all the calculations of each individual item. It goes on to say that
  1330
  to add them all together is "positively misleading" because:
  "It is inconceivable that all the elements in the calculation will work in the same direction…"
  that is to say, in the most pessimistic or, for that matter, in the most optimistic way. Again, as I have argued, an adverse movement in one sector of the calculations would produce upsetting consequences in another sector of the calculations. The White Paper also stresses in the same paragraph that the top figure of £670 million for our contribution to the Community budget is only a "theoretical maximum", because it cannot take into account the bearing on the United Kingdom of the arrangements agreed by the Six in December, 1969, for regulating their own contributions.
  The right hon. Gentleman was right to draw attention to the importance of the limit set to national contributions by what the Community call the key, although I think my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster corrected the impression that this had not been said in the White Paper. It is, in fact, set out fully in paragraph 42 and Table 9. I do not think it is fair to convict the figures or the White Paper about the extreme range of the estimates. The White Paper concludes that the total adverse effect is likely to lie well within the extremes of this range of £100 million to £1,100 million.
  The White Paper makes it clear that the calculations of the adverse effects have been produced not only on the basis of present assumptions, including present decisions by the Community—and the House must remember that we had most of these basic decisions as recently as December and some not until this month, which is why the White Paper was delayed—but also without taking into account any possible results achieved by the negotiations. Of course it would have been possible to make still further assumptions on what might come out of the negotiations, for example, on agricultural financing and on the period or periods of transition, whether for agriculture or for industry. I cannot think of a more reckless or unproductive form of proceeding than for a Government White Paper to have appeared to have anticipated the negotiations in this way.

  1331
  I was a little surprised this afternoon when the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition appeared to suggest that we should spell out our assumptions more than we have done. I may have misunderstood him and, if so, I regret it. In saying this, I thought he was perhaps saying that we should have spelt out the assumptions more in terms of what the negotiations might bring, but I may not be right here. For example, does anyone suggest that we should have spelt out in greater detail, and then quantified, the assumptions about the length of the transitional period or the transitional periods? It would be unwise, before the negotiations, to spell out this assumption further, but it is our intention to keep the House informed of the progress of negotiations as far as this can be done.
  Here we propose to follow the procedure adopted by the right hon. Gentleman in 1961–63, so far as possible. This would enable Parliament and the public to narrow some of the wide assumptions that had to be made in the White Paper. As the negotiations go on, some assumptions will be knocked on the head and many of the range of assumptions will be narrowed.
  I turn to the next question that goes to the heart of the great debate in this House in the last two days, and indeed the debate more widely in the fortnight since the White Paper was published. It has been said that the White Paper provides an argument against entering the Community. Many hon. Members have argued that it does. In my opinion, as I forecast would happen, the White Paper has confirmed what in their own minds they had worked out for themselves long before the White Paper was embarked upon. That is a natural reaction. Those who take the other side of the dispute also think that the White Paper confirms what they have thought, partly because of the margin of assumptions.
  In my own view, not only because the difficulty of making assumptions and calculations, but still more because we cannot forecast the progress of negotiations, I believe that the White Paper has neither added anything to nor subtracted anything from the arguments of those who already felt strongly either that we
  1332
  should enter or should not enter. [Interruption.] The House asked for the best figures to be made available, and we have given them. It is a basis for public discussion of the facts and the considerations so far as they are now known. That is before negotiations have started and before the community has taken some policy decisions—decisions which it is taking all the time since it is a continuing process—which may affect the terms of entry.
  The White Paper was not intended to provide a demonstration that we should enter or that we should not enter, because whether we enter depends, and must depend, on the terms of entry, and these we can know only when we finish the negotiations. The Government's position, which I have made clear many times, was stated in the White Paper and confirmed in the concluding words of my statement to the House on the day the White Paper was published. I then said
  "The Government would enter into negotiations resolutely, in good faith mindful both of British interests and of the advantages of success in the negotiations for all the members of an enlarged Community. We have made clear that if the negotiations produced acceptable conditions for British entry we believe that this will be advantageous for Britain, for Europe, and for Europe's voice in the world. Equally, we have made clear that if the conditions which emerge from the negotiations are in the Government's view not acceptable, we can rely on our own strength outside the Communities. But I repeat what I have said on a number of occasions in the House and outside that this outcome—a failure of the negotiations—would involve a cost for Britain. a cost for Europe, and a diminution of Europe's influence in world affairs."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th February, 1970; Vol. 795, c. 1083–84.]
  That is our position. I feel that no hon. Member will be able to form a final view before the results of the negotiations are a great deal clearer.
  These considerations provide a clear answer to the next question I want to put: has the publication of the White Paper produced any argument for withdrawing the application? If what I have said is true, clearly there is no case whatever for withdrawing the application, because we can only form a realistic estimate of the cost to Britain and a much clearer evaluation of the advantages to Britain as a result of the negotiations.
  Not more than one or two hon. Members at most have suggested that the

  1333
  application should be withdrawn now. This has been true of the speeches of a large number of hon. Members who are opposed to final entry and whose opposition to our entry has not been in the slightest degree reduced by anything in recent months, but they are not suggesting that we should withdraw the application.
  Mr. Maurice Edelman: Would my right hon. Friend say whether the negotiators will be plenipotentiaries or whether, having agreed the terms, the terms would have to be ratified by Parliament?
  The Prime Minister: It is impossible for any Government to take a decision as vital as entry without the support of Parliament. Of course we would submit it to Parliament, but the Government will take a view about it in the light of the results of the negotiations.
  Reference has been made in the debate to public opinion polls on the Common Market. Some hon. Members have suggested that popular support has been affected by the considerable degree of frustration, indeed even boredom or by two successive and prolonged vetoes. But as the Foreign Secretary said yesterday, a public opinion poll was taken on the day of the publication of the White Paper, which while it showed a strong majority against entry, nevertheless showed a clear and substantial majority in favour of going on with the negotiations. I also know that there has not been any support for a proposal that we put forward a little while ago that, while the application should remain in, we should postpone the beginning of the negotiations until some future date. In my opinion, this would be the worst of all worlds.
  We have made it clear repeatedly that we are ready to enter negotiations at the earliest moment that our negotiating partners are prepared to start them. Nothing could be worse now that they have taken a clear decision to enter into early negotiations than for them to assemble in a conference and find that we were not there—[Interruption.] I am glad that I get general agreement for that proposition, But I am dealing with the same suggestion that the right hon. Gentleman dealt with this afternoon. He dealt equally with the question of timing and, I am
  1334
  happy to say, reached the same conclusion.
  "I repeat that the Government's position on entry into the Common Market is clear. Our application is in. This is not in question, and it is not in question after this debate. We have made it clear that we are ready immediately to start negotiations. The Six have agreed to start negotiations this summer. We shall enter them in full determination to achieve success, for we believe it to be in the interests not only of Britain but of Europe and of Europe's place in world affairs. We aim to achieve terms which are acceptable to Britain and acceptable to Europe. Given acceptable terms for membership, we shall be willing to enter fully into all the responsibilities of membership, with a suitable and carefully adjusted period for transition."
  Those words are those which I used in a speech that I happen to have made last Saturday, to which attention has been drawn. I repeat that we have made clear that we are prepared to pay whatever price may be necessary to secure entry in terms of the agricultural programme and agricultural financing regulations if, but only if, the advantages accruing to Britain economically and politically as a result of entry on those terms in our judgment outweight the disadvantages and costs.
  In assessing the economic part of the balance of advantage and disadvantage, this would mean that we should have to accept increases in the cost of living over a reasonable transitional period. Equally, in this part of the transition, we should have to balance against the increases in the cost of living our hopes and assurances from the negotiations of rises in the standard of living which could be got by going in as opposed to remaining outside. Those will be the sort of tests when the time comes.
  My argument on Saturday, from which selective quotations were read this afternoon—[HON. MEMBERS: "0h"] I know, because I made the speech and, unlike most hon. Members who seem so sure about it, I have read it, too. My argument was that, while we are prepared to accept these policies in return for the greater advantages of joining the Market —and so, I think, are right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite—the Conservative policy would be to accept a partially self-imposed increase in food prices not in return for a European advantage but as part of the wider policy which emerged from Selsdon Park.

  1335
  The speech, which I gather some right hon. and hon. Members do not altogether like—they seem less than enthusiastic about it, anyway—highlighted the four central features of the Conservative policy which emerged from Selsdon Park. The first is to force up food prices. The second is to force up prices of other essentials. On that second point, I noticed that the Leader of the Opposition did not respond this afternoon to that part of my speech about V.A.T. The third is to cut down the welfare services to means test levels—[Interruption.] Yes, Selsdon Park was a classic blunder on their part—[Interruplion.]—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. We have had a placid debate so far. Something has disturbed it.
  The Prime Minister: Mr. Speaker, they are loving it. The fourth is to force up rents in a free-for-all in housing.
  Concerning food prices, to which attention was drawn this afternoon—
  Mr. Kenneth Lewis: On a point of order. I am not infrequently called to order because of something that I have said which does not relate to the debate. May I ask how this relates either to the White Paper or to the Common Market? This is just political clap-trap.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I thought that the bit about housing had nothing to do with the Common Market.
  The Prime Minister: I was saying, when I was interrupted by the point of order, that the question of food prices, which has been in order throughout the debate, is the Opposition's policy, irrespective of Common Market negotiations. It would be their policy, as they have made clear, if there were no Common Market negotiations, or if, as the right hon. Member for Bridlington (Mr. Wood) said, the negotiations were to fail. They would do it without the higher living standards that the Market would mean and without the wider advantages of Common Market entry.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe Mr. Jeremy Thorpe (Devon, North) rose—
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman was not at Selsdon. He
  1336
  would like to hear about it. I should love to have been there.
  When I have attacked the dearer food policy in the House in the past the right hon. Gentleman has asked me, perfectly fairly, whether we should not be committed to dearer food if we entered the Market. Each time I have replied that the difference between us is that we would do it in return for advantages in the European negotiations, but that they would do it anyhow without any corressponding advantage.
  What I said last Saturday I have frequently said in the House. I know how the right hon. Gentleman feels about it, but he and his right hon. and hon. Friends have got themselves into this difficulty by rushing out statements on Sunday clearly not knowing with any accuracy what I had said. Their own Conservative newspapers on Monday morning admitted that when they read the full text of the speech the charge did not stick—even the Telegraph and The Times—[HoN. MEMBERS: "Oh."]
  I believe that this petulant reaction that we have had from the right hon. Gentleman today was based on an angry and peevish realisation that the full implications of their policy are now becoming more clear to the public, whether it is dearer food, higher rents, or the rest. The more their policies are probed, the more reckless and regressive they seem to be. So, just to cheer up the right hon. Gentleman, there are many more questions that we shall have to put to him about his dearer food policy and we shall expect those questions to be answered.
  Having dealt with that irrelevant intervention, I conclude by saying that today is not the time to attempt to draw conclusions in terms of policy from the White Paper. Britain's application for membership has been made, and that is not in question. I repeat, the facts discussed in the debate create a situation in which I believe that the Government can go forward to the negotiations with determination, supported by many right hon. and hon. Members. When those negotiations are complete, we can put our decision to the House. I believe that the debate of the last two days will help to clarify for the House, and will also

  1337
  help the Government in the negotiations, what the real issues are.
  Mr. Speaker: The Question is,
  That this House takes note of the White Paper on Britain and the European Communities (Command Paper No. 4289).
  As many as are of that opinion say "Aye" To the contrary, "No."
  Mrs. Ewing: No.
  Mr. Speaker: I think the "Ayes" have it. The "Ayes" have it.
  Resolved,
  That this House takes note of the White Paper on Britain and the European Communities (Command Paper No. 4289).

PASSENGER VEHICLES (DRIVERS' HOURS)
10.0 p.m.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. Bob Brown): I beg to move,
That the Drivers' Hours (Passenger Vehicles) (Modifications) Order, 1970, a draft of which was laid before this House on 19th February, be approved.
The Order is made—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. Will hon. Members wishing to leave the Chamber not linger?
Mr. Brown: The Order is made by my right hon. Friend under his powers in Section 96(12) of the Transport Act, 1968, to make certain modifications to the requirements of Section 96 of the Act as they affect drivers of public service vehicles. Other exemptions, to cover cases of emergency, are contained in the Drivers' Hours (Passenger Vehicles) Exemptions Regulations, 1970, which were laid before the House on 9th February. It is the first, more general, exemptions that are the subject of this Order.
When the Minister's predecessor announced last July that stage I of the Transport Act requirements would be brought into effect this March, he said that it would be necessary to provide certain exemptions—permanent exemptions—to deal with special categories of passenger services, and also that some additional temporary and transitional exemptions might be necessary because of the immediate effects on essential public transport services and on earnings. Since then, we have had extensive consultations with the operators' organisations and the unions, and as a result we are satisfied that the exemptions provided for in the Order are genuinely needed. The exemptions are, as I have said, permanent or temporary.
First, the permanent exemptions. These are limited to the drivers of certain specialised kinds of express and contract services. They will make the requirements a little more flexible for holiday and excursion coach services, in particular. They are really adjustments rather than exemptions, since in most cases there are compensating conditions attached.
1340
The temporary exemptions, on the other hand, are primarily for stage bus drivers. First and foremost, my right hon. Friend is most anxious to reduce these drivers' hours. At the same time, the present labour shortages in the bus industry are serious, and I know that hon. Members are well aware of this. For this reason, my right hon. Friend thinks that it is clear, as his predecessor foreshadowed, that there must be some adjustment of the stage I requirements in the initial stages. Otherwise, services would have to be drastically curtailed, many of the cuts would fall in peak hours, and the public—workers and schoolchildren especially—would suffer hardship. These exemptions are transitional. Several of them are expressly limited to expire 19 months hence, on 4th October, 1971. The rest are intended to continue for the duration of stage I only.
Turning to the Order itself, the legal expression of the provisions is inevitably complicated, but an explanatory leaflet has been prepared for the guidance of operators and drivers to show what the new hours requirements will be, taking the provisions of the Act and the Order together. Copies of this leaflet are available in the Vote Office. Taking the provisions of the Order in turn, their practical effect is briefly as follows.
Articles 1 and 2 are purely formal. Articles 3 and 4 cover the exemptions necessary to deal with transitional problems on the stage bus services and, in particular, to give the extra flexibility necessary to cover peak period working. Article 3(2) allows the statutory rest period between working days for stage bus drivers to be reduced from 11 hours to 81 hours, provided that the driver has at least 12 hours rest next day. The exemption cannot apply more than three times a week. If the 91 hours rest allowed once a week under the Act itself —Section 96(4)(b)—is taken advantage of, the exemption can apply only twice a week.
This succeeds a provision under present law which allows the rest period to be reduced to nine hours—and on one occasion a week to eight hours—if the driver has 12 hours rest next time. This facility is a great help to operators in time of staff shortage, for it means

1341
that a driver who has finished duty at, say, 9 p.m. can, if there is no other driver available, take an early turn at 6 a.m. the following morning. If he had to wait 11 hours until 8 a.m., it would be too late for the morning peak. Article 3(3) is merely a consequential provision to alter the definition of "working day" in Section 103 because of this exemption. This exemption ceases to have effect on 4th October, 1971.
Article 3(4) amends the 60-hour working week requirement in the Act so as to provide for a 132-hour fortnight for public service vehicle drivers, so long as not more than 72 hours are worked in any one week. This extension is necessary to take the fullest advantage of the provisions which will, for the present, give public service vehicle drivers only a fortnightly instead of a weekly rest day. It expires on 4th October, 1971.
At present, the Act itself—Section 96(6)(b)—already exempts stage bus drivers from the weekly rest day requirment, provided that they have a fortnightly rest day. This exemption is extended to all public service vehicle drivers by Article 3(5). If this fortnightly rest day exemption, and the corresponding hours exemption in Article 3(4), were limited to stage bus drivers, operators needing to use the exemptions would not be able to schedule their drivers for express and contract carriage work on one or two days in the week—as they often doߞto give them welcome variety of work.
Article 3(5) also includes a condition that not more than 13 working days may be worked in a fortnight. This condition ensures that when the driver does have his 24 hours off in the fortnight it is a full day, and not the afternoon of one day and the morning of the next. Otherwise, the shift system might be so manipulated that a driver seldom had a full day off, although conforming to the letter of the law.
Article 4(2) enables stage bus drivers to continue to work a straight-through duty of 8½ or 8 hours, including layover time, so long as this is the only duty worked in the day. This allows a practice permitted under existing law to continue. It enables the operator to schedule a duty without the statutory half-hour break
1342
after 5½ hours under Section 96(2), which on some routes can mean either a half-hour wait before the service continues, or a change of driver. The driver must, however, have 45 or 40 minutes free of driving in the course of the duty. This is the layover allowed at the terminal points for documentation, inspection of the vehicle and so on. This kind of duty is liked by many drivers because it shortens the working day.
For stage bus drivers who work spreadover duties, that is, spells of duty interspersed with off duty time, the maximum spreadover is extended from 127½ to 14 hours. The work content however must remain at 11 hours. Operators need this exemption for the same reason that they need the reduced rest period between working days, in order to make the best use of voluntary overtime in the interest of keeping the maximum number of buses manned during the peak hours. For example a driver who has been on duty from 6 a.m. to 2 p.m. could do overtime from 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. in order to cover the evening peak. This, again, is a temporary exemption to meet transitional difficulties and will end in October, 1971.
The remaining exemptions in Articles 5 and 6 are for the permanent adjustments of the provisions for express and contract drivers which I referred to earlier. It is convenient to start with Article 5(3). This provides for the 4-hour rest period during a 14-hour working day, applicable to these drivers, to be aggregated and not continuous, provided that there is a rest period of at least 12 hours at the end of the day; and for a 16-hour working day containing a six hour continuous rest period, not more than once a week. Under Articles 5(2), (3) and (4), if a driver takes his statutory rest periods during the working day on a double-manned vehicle, he must have a seat reserved for him when he is not driving, and a 12 hour rest at the end of that day.
Article 6 provides that, in the case of long tours run on a three-week cycle, the driver is exempt from the fortnightly rest day requirement so long as he has two periods of 24 hours off duty in the three weeks. The kind of services that will be facilitated by these adjustments are the long day excursions where the passengers do not want to stay too long in any one place or where, conversely, they want a

1343
long stay at one destination; the cases where two drivers are carried because more than 10 hours driving in the day is involved: and the tours lasting several days where the passengers like to have the services of one driver throughout and his rest day may therefore need adjustment.
The House will appreciate that in introducing the Transport Act provision, it is necessary to strike a fair balance, taking into account both the interests of the drivers and those of the travelling public. My right hon. Friend is satisfied, after the very full consultations that have taken place, that the proposals in the Order strike a fair balance. But in moving the Order he would wish to emphasise again the temporary nature of the exemptions relating to stage bus operation.
It will be necessary for both sides of the industry to consider, well before the expiry of these exemptions, the adjustments that will need to be made in anticipation of the coming into effect of the stage I provisions in their original form. In my right hon. Friend's view it will likewise be necessary, in the course of the next year or so before these exemptions expire, to review the situation in regard to the implementation, by a further Order, of the provisions envisaged for stage II.
10.14 p.m.
Mr. John Hynd: I am seriously perturbed by this Order. As long ago as June, 1967, my hon. Friend's predecessor after considerable discussion, with all the interests involved —trade unions and others—of the form of the control and restriction of driving hours which should be embodied in legislation, seemed to meet the unions attitude. Due notice was given to the bus operators of the intended restrictions.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary emphasised that these modifications in the arrangements are of a temporary nature. Surely sufficient time has elapsed since June, 1967, for operators, who have been aware of the intended restrictions to be placed on driving hours, to have adjusted their arrangements accordingly? If three years have not been sufficient for them to have made these adjustments, I cannot see how another 18
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months, till October, 1971, will prove an adequate time.
It is clear from the Order that the Minister is leaning over backwards to meet operators who have failed to face up to the obligations which they understood would be imposed on them. He has not gone far to meet the requirements of the unions, the real needs of drivers and the desires of the public in relation to driving conditions in 1970. By merely modifying rest periods and extending hours that drivers may work he is achieving nothing.
My hon. Friend explained how he understood the feelings of the unions and the men and took their views into consideration. Is he aware that his predecessors did the same? They, too, had in mind the views of the unions and the difficulties and dangers of over-straining drivers. They tried to solve these problems by the provisions which they introduced. Now, after all the warning that has been given and after three years of increased road traffic, the Government are merely modifying those provisions. Are they aware that the provisions, which were introduced three years ago, were considered to be the minimum necessary then?
It has been argued that during periods of staff shortage it may be necessary to curtail rest periods and extend driving hours to keep services flowing. But adequate notice has been given of the arrangements which are necessary to overcome these problems. If we are now being told that because operators have fallen short in making arrangements we must introduce provisions in their favour, we are thereby departing from the original principles on which this legislation was based.
It has previously been argued that because the rates of pay of busmen are low, they must work all the hours that God sent to make up their pay and keep the services flowing, and this seems to be the argument for curtailing rest periods and extending driving hours. Is my hon. Friend aware that drivers are being forced, by low wages and bad conditions, to drive excessive hours and that the restrictions imposed by the 1968 Act were introduced because of this state of affairs? As these conditions are no less

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dangerous now, it is all the more reason to protect drivers and the public, and I find it difficult to understand why the Government are introducing these modifications. The men's unions are firmly opposed to the Order, particularly to Article 3(2) and (4) and Article 4(2)(i) and (ii). Even at this late stage the Government should think again before promulgating the Order.
It may well be said that there is need for dispensation in certain cases. This may be so, although it is difficult to understand why it should be necessary after the three years which have elapsed since the original proposals. If operators have failed, for one reason or another, sometimes because they have been unable to do so, to meet the provisions of the Act, surely some means can be established by which particular cases could be referred to the Traffic Commissioners for special consideration so that limited temporary exemptions could be given. We should not go further than that. It is wrong to provide in an Order complete blanket loopholes for all operators whether they are capable or incapable of complying with the provisions of the 1968 Act.
I greatly hope that, even at this late stage, the Minister will think again about the Order.
10.21 p.m.
Sir Ronald Russell: I intervene not so much to discuss the merits of the Order as to complain about its unintelligibility. The Joint Parliamentary Secretary did something to mitigate that and also mentioned a leaflet which he said was obtainable from the Vote Office. I have here a leaflet, from the end of which I gather that it is only one of the leaflets which are obtainable. The leaflet makes the Order a little clearer.
I have constituents who do not understand the Order and who, therefore, do not know how much to charge their customers for, say, a one-day coach trip to Bournemouth. Before an Order such as this, which is to come into operation next Sunday—
The Minister of Transport (Mr. Frederick Mulley): The Order is to come into operation on 15th March. Through some misunderstanding, the Vote Office has been issuing the unamended Order.
Sir R. Russell: I am glad to hear that it is not to come into operation so soon as Sunday.
Article 5(3), even when read together with the Transport Act, 1968, is unintelligible. It is almost as bad as certain Sections of the Land Commission Act and some recent Finance Acts. Is it not possible to produce Orders which are more intelligible to the general public? Possibly the leaflets which are available go some way towards making the Order clearer. The one which I have had the opportunity of glancing through does not relate to express or contract carriers. It is too much to expect coach operators to be able to quote in advance for a day trip to Bournemouth which is to take place next June. They should be able to do so now, but, because of the state of the Order, cannot do so.
I ask that in future more consideration be given to making Orders more intelligible. If this cannot be done, because of the necessity to have legalistic language, I hope that the explanatory leaflets will be issued at a much earlier stage so that they can be studied long before Orders and Regulations come into operation.
10.25 p.m.
Mr. John Ellis: I have the honour to be a member of the Transport and General Workers Union, and I have been very closely connected with it in discussions on the Order. The union has held discussion with my right hon. Friend to which I hope he will refer.
I support what my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. John Hynd) said. The Order is a compromise document. I think that my right hon. Friend would have a fair case if he said that, like many Ministers, he is faced with a situation he inherited, and that over the years drivers have had to work far too many hours. I pay him the compliment of saying that he seeks to redress that by means of the Order.
Hon. Members on both sides must have some idea of what it is like to drive on the roads of this country today. Article 3(1) of the Order talks of 60 hours a week and 72 hours, and of drivers working two weekends before they have a day off. It is deplorable that men are sent out to drive heavy vehicles for long

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periods. My experience is only of driving a reasonably light car. I drive frequently from Bristol to London, a journey of about three hours, and I have then had enough; I want to rest. But men take heavy buses out on the roads with many people on board and drive for hour after hour. It is not good enough.
I understand the situation my right hon. Friend faces. I know it very well, coming from the City of Bristol, where for years the bus service has been the subject of heavy complaints. My answer is that we must have more drivers, and it is necessary to offer more pay to attract drivers—
Mr. Speaker: Order. That is a little wide of what we are discussing.
Mr. Ellis: I am guided by your wise words Mr. Speaker. The point I seek to make is that the Minister has been forced into the present position to some degree because he cannot go as far as he would like in prescribing shorter hours for bus drivers owing to staff shortages. I make merely a passing reference to the fact that the community must face this situation and provide higher wages to attract men into the industry, so that they can work more civilised hours having regard to the conditions on our roads today.
My union has the greatest reservation about the Order. We accept the difficulties the Minister is in, but we very much look forward to the day when he can lay Orders for hours more in keeping with present conditions on the roads. We shall not take violent exception to the Order provided my right hon. Friend can give assurances that he is not satisfied with the situation.
I appreciate that the document is very complex and difficult to understand, but my right hon. Friend has been forced into a recognition of the situation and has sought to alleviate the problem where he could without bringing the whole of our transport to a grinding halt. That was the dilemma he was in.
Having said that, and made the excuses I can for my right hon. Friend and realising his position, I hope that he will stay in his job a lot longer. I hope he will have recognised that he has a very full slate in dealing with this ques-
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tion, and I hope that he goes from strength to strength. The union members who man the buses in my area and elsewhere recognise, from the point of view of safety, health and their livelihoods that they have not had the recognition they should have had from society as a whole. I look forward to the day when they get that recognition, when our bus drivers are remunerated properly and work civilised hours. I know that my right hon. Friend hopes that too.
10.31 p.m.
Mr. Graham Page: I join my hon. Friend the Member for Wembley, South (Sir R. Russell) in drawing attention to the complexity of the Order and the great difficulty one has in understanding some of its provisions. In the preamble, there is the statement that it has been made after consultation with representative organisations, and I am sure that the officials of the Ministry, the unions and the operators who carried out these negotiations understand the provisions well.
But the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments is charged with the duty of examining every Statutory Instrument laid before the House, including draft Statutory Instruments such as this one, and if the Instrument requires elucidation, or if its drafting appears to be defective, the Committee may report the matter to the House.
On this occasion, the Select Committee was very concerned about the wording of the Order. In particular, it drew attention to Article 3(2) and the introduction of a new sub-paragraph (c) into a section of the principal Act. I am sure that there cannot be more than a handful of hon. Members who can put their hands on their hearts and say that they understand what that sub-paragraph means. It is almost unintelligible as it stands.
Therefore, the Select Committee asked for a memorandum from the Department explaining what was meant by these provisions and how they could be made more understandable to those who have to understand them. The Order must be understood by bus drivers in particular, since it refers to those who drive "stage carriages"—an extraordinary term for a bus, but there it is—and I am sure that many of them, if they saw sub-paragraph

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(c) stuck up on the notice boards in their garages, would laugh themselves silly and would not understand what it was all about.
The Select Committee had a helpful memorandum from the Department and I express our gratitude to the official of the Department who gave evidence on the subject. He not only explained the provisions to the Committee but produced a pamphlet, the draft of which is now before the House, and in particular the table attached to it. The wording in that table goes a long way to make the provisions clear to those who have to operate them. From that point of view, both pamphlet and table are of great value. Because it is the intention of the Department to explain it to the operators and bus drivers in this form, the Select Committee felt that it did not need to report the matter to the House as one requiring further elucidation.
My fear is that perhaps all these good intentions and good efforts by the Department may be wasted. There is no obligation on any operator to distribute this pamphlet or to put up this table attached to the pamphlet on a notice board. A contractor can hide it away and do nothing about it. Normally, the operators are anxious that their drivers should know the provisions and there is co-operation between drivers and operators in trying to understand them. This is not so in all cases. I understand that in some cases the operators make their own translations, as it were, of the Orders and stick those upon the notice board. It would be far better if there were some obligation upon the operators to make known, by posting on the notice board or by distributing pamphlets, the version issued by the Ministry.
This is the authentic version and the authentic table. It explains things well. If some operators are to be allowed to make their own interpretation and put that on the notice board, or if some of the smaller operators avoid letting their drivers know anything at all about it, because they want to make greater modifications than the Order makes, the Order will fail to have proper effect and it will be dangerous in that it makes some exemptions and may be used as an excuse for making greater exemptions. I should like to see an obligation in the Order for
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the operator to exhibit properly the version that the Ministry has issued.
10.37 p.m.
Mr. Leslie Huckfield: I do not have to bring to the notice of my right hon. Friend the fact that in dealing with the enforcement of bus drivers' hours we are dealing with a rather different situation from that with which we dealt a couple of weeks ago when we considered road haulage drivers' hours. The difference is that when any Statutory Instrument is brought before this House referring to a reduction in bus drivers' hours it will, by and large, be enforced. That is not, I submit, the case in the road haulage industry.
It is a great importance, when we are talking about reduction in bus drivers' hours, to get the fact right and bear in mind the very varied conditions which operate in the industry. I concur with the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Ellis) who said that we are dealing with a predominantly low-wage industry. I would have to go a long way before I found comparable examples of men working such long hours per week for comparably low wages.
When I consider the exemptions that the Minister has made in this Order, both temporary and permanent, I cannot help feeling that there is a much more simple solution and that is to pay the drivers a lot more money. When I look at the peculiar exemptions we have had to make to certain categories of carriage and when I look at the staff shortage on the ground, I cannot help wondering why a great deal more talk has not been heard over the past six months about increasing the wages. The Parliamentary Secretary referred to the staff shortages in various parts of the country and the consequent need to make exemptions.
I represent a constituency where, over the past year, my No. 1 complaint from constituents has been from disgruntled passengers about the Midland Red Bus Company. This service is now part of the National Bus Company which is, through previous Transport Acts, a State-owned bus undertaking. We are now facing a situation in the Midlands when staff shortages and the competition from the private motor car means that public

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transport, particularly that provided by the Midland Red, is at near crisis point.
Midland Red now have to go before the traffic commissioners to ask permission to withdraw most of the Sunday services and even some weekly services, because of staff shortages, which will be made worse by the Order. Even some of the profitable routes, on which Midland Red relies to offset the less profitable routes, cannot be run because of staff shortages.
In Nuneaton, during one week, staff shortages were almost approaching 50 per cent. Competition from highly-paid jobs elsewhere is such that if Midland Red and other bus companies in certain parts of the Midlands do not increase wages they will find it difficult to get any staff at all. I hope that in the continuing review the Minister will bear in mind the pleas not only of the operators but of the Transport and General Workers' Union.
I have recently had letters from many headmasters complaining that only 75 per cent. of the children had arrived at school in the morning because they could not get buses. I have had letters from disgruntled nurses who cannot get to hospital for vital duties. I have had letters from villages—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Sydney Irving): Order. The hon. Gentleman is getting rather wide of the Motion.
Mr. Huckfield: I am trying to say that there is a close connection between the staff shortage, with the danger of an imminent crisis in public transport, and the difficulties which will be brought about by the introduction of the Order. I hope that these permanent and temporary exemptions will soon be rendered unnecessary by an increase in wages.
Two weeks ago I had a meeting in my constituency with operators of workers' services, excursion services and contract services in North Warwickshire, who told me that they would need a 20-hour spreadover for their drivers to enable them to continue services to their customers. I find that difficult to support entirely, and I know the Minister feels likewise. I am glad that he has been able to grant up to a 16-hour spread-
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over on certain days, and has clarified the point about the second driver being carried on the bus, so making possible the operation of longer tours and excursions. But even here the basic wage in the industry is much too low.
The review promised by the Minister will have to be undertaken in the light of advances in productivity represented by the increasing number of one-man operated buses now coming into service. I hope that this will mean that fewer drivers will be required and that some of the temporary exemptions will be lifted.
I also hope that, with the operation of some of the other parts of the Transport Act, especially the bus grants, the fuel tax offset and the grants from local authorities, many bus operators will find themselves in a better position, with the result that they will not be faced with the necessity of having to go before traffic commissioners and to the Minister and plead for these exemptions.
I ask my right hon. Friend to watch the increases in productivity which will be brought about by one-man operated buses. I hope that he will take serious note of the progress which local authority and Exchequer grants are expected to make in improving the financial situation of the National Bus Company and its various component parts. Above all, I remind him that there is a much more simple answer than all these exemptions. It is to increase the basic wage and lower the basic week of the bus driver.
10.46 p.m.
Mr. Edward M. Taylor: We have had an interesting debate, with authoritative speeches from a number of hon. Members who have a great deal of experience in the matters to which this Order relates.
Despite all the conflicting views which have been expressed, we all agree that this is perhaps the most complicated Order that we have seen for a long time. My hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) has made a great contribution to the House by his diligent study of various Orders. When he is heard to say that an Order is very complicated, and difficult to understand, I hope that the Minister will consider whether such Orders can be made more clear and less legally worded in future.

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As my hon. Friend the Member for Wembley, South (Sir R. Russell) said, it is obvious that such Orders, because of their nature, must be a little complicated. However, this one has gone a little too far. It is almost a legal nightmare. If the right hon. Gentleman has any doubt about that, I refer him to the top of page 2, where he will see the words:
"(2) Section 96(4) shall have effect in relation to drivers to whom this Article applies as if after the words 'paragraph (b)' in paragraph (a) there were added the words 'or (c)' and there were added after paragraph (b) the following paragraph …"
It may be no comfort to my hon. Friend to know that the leaflet which is issued to explain it says that consideration is being given by the Ministry to consulting with the Welsh Office about the need for a Welsh language version.
It is important that the content and meat of the Order should be clear to those who will be affected by it.
Perhaps the explanatory note which is available to us could be made generally available to the industry. I do not suggest the operators should be under any compulsion, but it might be that the Minister could ensure that they have these notices readily available in all places, and certainly to the drivers under their control.
My second question concerns the point that the right hon. Gentleman dealt with when he intervened in the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Wembley, South about the date of operation. We are aware of the various drivers' hours provisions stemming from Section 96, which come into operation on 1st March. As published originally, this Order specified that it would come into operation on 1st March, but, as the Minister said, it has now been changed to 15th March. Will the operation of Section 96 also be delayed for passenger service vehicles to 15th March, to coincide with the Order? It must be the case that the exemptions in the Order will take effect at the same time as Section 96, but the Minister should make that clear. Will the Minister also tell us why there has been this delay? Obviously, it would have been tidier and perhaps more in the interests of the industry if the reduction of hours in this case could be made to coincide with others.
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Section 96, from which the Order stems, makes concessions to passenger vehicle operators, because of the great difficulty of coping with peak demands, to which the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Leslie Huckfield) referred. In this industry, when dealing with the complex problem of peak demands, almost all spread over shifts, obviously regulations which would apply generally would not necessarily be helpful when dealing with this situation.
We must remember that in some areas there are serious staff shortages of 10 per cent. and above. The hon. Member for Nuneaton referred to one case which was greatly in excess of that. There is obviously a serious situation.
While some hon. Members, particularly the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. John Hynd), expressed regret that we had to have these regulations, it is crystal clear that if we did not have them the problem would be even more serious. It is obvious that if, in the short term, forgetting what has happened in the past and what may happen in future, we were not to have the Order placed before and considered by us, the problems of the industry would be very serious indeed.
There could, in fact, be a reason for even more flexibility being given in particular cases to cope with special circumstances. While the industry is grateful for the concessions made by the Order, its gratitude can be compared with the position of an innocent man whose prison sentence is reduced from 10 to five years.
Will the Minister make clear, particularly in relation to the questions raised by the hon. Member for Attercliffe, whether it will be possible to have regulations made to cope with particular circumstances? The attitude of the Opposition to the Order will certainly stem partly from what answer the Minister gives.
Under Section 96 (10) (b), the Minister is able to make regulations enabling the traffic commissioners to deal with cases of special need on a local basis. Will he tell us whether it is his intention that such regulations may be made? I am not thinking about general circumstances. I am thinking, for example, of the Isle of Wight, where bus operators

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have to cope with the special problems of fitting in with the tides and ferry services, "wakes" weeks and public holidays, and special circumstances which could arise from flu epidemics and the like—in other words, particular circumstances.
Will the Minister tell us in general, while not committing himself to particular regulations, whether, in certain circumstances, he intends to give the traffic commissioners the right to issue such exemptions? Will he also tell us whether it is his understanding that the Order, which will involve a change, will result in the employment of more part-time drivers? There are strong feelings in one of the unions involved that this is not the way to solve the problem of shortage of drivers. Does the Minister believe that this will result in the employment of more part-time drivers, and is this desirable?
Section 96(4) provides for 11 hours rest, but Article 4(3) of the Order provides for a 14-hour spread-over. On this basis, with the 11 hours rest on top, work schedules would obviously have to be based on 25 hours. As there are 24 hours in the day, it seems difficult to fit this in. Would it not be better to refer to a 14-hour spread-over with 10 hours rest, which would add up to 24 hours? It would be tidier and would also conform with several other provisions.
Mr. Mulley: The hon. Gentleman refers to 11 hours' rest point. I would point out that there is no obligatory period of rest. There is provision in the exemptions for varied periods of rest.
Mr. Taylor: I was referring to the provision in Section 96(4) of the parent Act:
"Subject to the provisions of this section, there shall be, between any two successive working days of a driver, an interval of rest which—
(a) subject to paragraph (b) of this subsection, shall not be of less than eleven hours".
Perhaps the Minister will explain whether there is a point there about which we should be concerned.
Article 5(3) provides for a 14-hour spreadover, with a four-hour rest period. As the hon. Member for Nuneaton said,
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there can also be a 16-hour spread-over if there is an amount of rest within that time which adds up to the amount by which the working time exceeds 10 hours. In other words, both are related to the 10 hours. But it appears that, if there were a 13-hour spread-over, that is, between 12½ and 14 hours, with a four-hour obligatory rest period within it, there would be only nine hours available for working and driving.
It seems more logical to relate all rest periods to 10 hours. That appears to arise only between 12½ and 14 hours, but, if there were a 13-hour spread-over, because of the compulsory four-hour rest period in that time, there would not be a 10-hour working day.
Those are the small points on which I should like the Minister's comments. In general, we accept that the Order lays down a sensible and practical way of dealing with an unsatisfactory situation. There must be flexibility in an industry such as this. Without flexibility, the problems faced at present would be even more serious. We are all aware of the serious shortage of drivers and of the special circumstances which arise from time to time. The Order will be helpful, I am sure that the concessions which have been made are appreciated by the industry, and we shall, in the circumstances, support the Motion.
10.58 p.m.
The Minister of Transport (Mr. Frederick Mulley): The interesting debate which we have had has illustrated a Minister's difficulties in approaching this problem. It is necessary to concern myself with hours of work, but I feel that I have a responsibility also for the interests of the travelling public. Hon. Members have shown that there are, indeed, two sides to the argument. I tell the House frankly that what I have done has caused satisfaction to neither the unions nor the operators.
I take, first, the important question of the date, raised by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor). It is intended that not only this Order, but all the Orders and regulations associated with it, will come into force on 15th March. The rules relating to goods vehicles are to come into effect on 1st March. I confess that I had intended them both to come into force on 1st March, but, as the distinguished

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Chairman of the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments, the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page), made clear—I make no complaint about it, because it is a very complicated Order—the Committee, at its first meeting, asked for further explanations and information.
I think that I am right in saying that the Committee meets at fortnightly intervals. I thought it right to add 14 days, since it would have been wrong to come here tonight and ask the House to consider an Order which would come into force on Sunday next. That would not be treating the House with proper courtesy.
I have consulted the operators, and I understand that this short extension of time will not cause any difficulty to them. Indeed, I believe that in several cases it is of some assistance, giving them a little more time to rearrange their schedules. I do not believe that any difficulty has been caused by the delay, though I wish to make clear that the whole system, assuming that the House is good enough to pass the Order tonight, is to come into force on 15th March.
I willingly concede that the Order presents great complexity. We have, however, possibly underrated the capacity of those working in the industry to understand and grasp complicated concepts like spread-overs, swing shifts, and the like. The people in the industry are familiar with the whole concept of scheduling, which is a complex operation. Indeed, in each garage there is a committee of the men which is concerned with the management in working out the schedules. They are the people who need to know precisely what is involved. I am certain that on the trade union side they will be so informed.
I certainly give the assurance that the Ministry will do all it can to see that the memorandum and the information is given the widest possible circulation. I have no power, however, either under the Act or in any other way, to compel operators to post the information on notice boards. That is a point that the House might bear in mind if we have further legislation on the subject.
I thank the hon. Member for Crosby for what he said about the official who appeared before his Committee. I am sorry that we were not able to provide the
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information for the earlier meeting of the Committee, because I was fully conscious of the difficulty. We considered whether we could make the Order simple, but its purpose is not merely to inform those who are concerned with the new hours. It must have legal effect. Therefore, the drafting of Statutory Instruments is often a very complex matter. They have to be prepared in a form that ensures that, in the event of prosecution, a case can properly proceed.
I should like to pay tribute to the work of the officials of my Department who have been concerned in lengthy consultations and who have worked on and helped draft these documents over a long period. It has been a most difficult time and I wish to tell the House how much I appreciate the work that has been done. We shall certainly consider whether, on any subsequent occasion, we can make for greater simplification, but I would not want, on grounds of simplicity, to lose the legal validity of what we are trying to do.
My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. John Hynd) is. I think, the only one who has challenged the concept of the exemptions. He courteously told me of his special difficulty in not being able to stay for the remainder of the debate, and I assured him that the House would appreciate why he was not able to be present to hear the reply. Since he is a neighbour of mine in Sheffield, I do not know that he realises how difficult things might be in other parts of the country. This is because we have a fairly good undertaking in Sheffield, although my constituents tell me that the position is by no means perfect.
The problem is to strike a balance between the needs of the travelling public and those of the operators. As the operators are almost entirely either municipal undertakings or companies of the National Bus Company, the private profit element scarcely arises on the stage carriage services.
As to the question of complexity and intelligibility, everyone I have met—and I have been to many meetings with both sides—has pressed me to make Orders of this kind more complex and unintelligible. They have wanted to include more exemptions and to try to get, as they put it, more flexibility. A one-man coach operator in my constituency came

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to see me, not to complain of the complexity, but, I can tell the hon. Member for Wembley, South (Sir R. Russell), to give me his own list of additional complexities.
It is extremely important that we get the maximum flexibility. It is obviously not possible to include all possible exemptions, but the Order gives the opportunity of dealing with an emergency situation or working out a schedule to get the odd change from one day to another. The fact is that on municipal undertakings, and in London, there is, on average, a 17 per cent. shortage of crews, and in the National Bus Company the average is 13½ per cent. In some cases, as my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Leslie Huckfield) said, the figure is substantially higher. It would, therefore, have been wholly irresponsible not to try to make some allowance for this difficulty.
I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Attercliffe was less than fair when he said that we had not gone very far. Until 15th March the maximum work hours are 98 a week. There is no provision whatever for a rest day, and I understand that many drivers work on their rest day regularly and do not have a real rest for a very long time. By means of what is called the swing shift, a driver has 24 hours off by finishing work at 2 p.m. one afternoon and starting again at 2 p.m. the following day. On each day, however, he can do a full shift of work, which does not seem to be right as a rest day.
I have provided in the Order for at least one complete day off work a fortnight, and a maximum working period of 132 hours in a fortnight. This is a substantial step forward and, as my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary said, we stress that these are temporary exemptions. Unless some other action is taken, they will, for the most part, automatically lapse on 4th October, 1971. This is a date chosen to coincide with the introduction of the new winter schedules, which I understand is the most convenient time for such a change.
I believe that, when we bring this into operation, the operators and the unions will see the need to improve efficiency and recruitment, so that they can face the situation when these temporary
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exemptions expire. The hon. Member for Cathcart suggested that they might consider employing part-time drivers. I think that they will have to consider some radical remedies if they are to get the necessary crews to maintain the service which the public want.
Pay has been mentioned on a number of occasions, but this is not within my jurisdiction. Clearly, this is an important aspect, but we must remember that, if there are pay increases, in all probability there are fare increases, too. This is a consequence which must be faced. I submit that we have put forward a reasonable balance to try to reduce drivers' hours, not only on the ground of road safety, but on the general ground of hours of work. Until drivers' conditions are improved, we shall not get the necessary recruitment, which, by itself, is the only way to get the better service and reliability which is so important.
The hon. Member for Cathcart suggested, as have many operators—municipal, National Bus Company, and private —that there ought to be more flexibility. I have turned down more proposals for exemptions than I have accepted, as I think it is right to make a real start on reducing drivers' hours.
The hon. Gentleman suggested that there was a need to deal with special needs on a local basis. I do not see that there is a need to make regulations to provide for the traffic commissioners to give further exemptions on a local basis. I think that the operators and unions must face these problems during the next 18 months, if they are to provide the crews to maintain the necessary services. It would be counter-productive if they could get an exemption for every temporary difficulty. This is not a case of just a few shortages in one or two cities or counties. This public transport problem is very widespread and it would not be right to give the commissioners these special powers.
I have not heard of any particular problem in the Isle of Wight. In our long consultations I think that we would have heard if they had expected problems. Influenza epidemics are a general problem and not confined to this field. The hon. Member has a strange opinion of the speed at which the traffic commissioners could work if he thinks that they could

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grant exemptions in time to produce practical remedies when there was a 'flu epidemic. It is important that, if cases go before the commissioners, the grounds of objection should be fully discussed as well as the operators' case.
So it would not be right now to invoke my power under the Act to give the commissioners this jurisdiction. It is essentially an emergency provision and should not be regarded as a normal arrangement to deal with drivers' hours.
As for the 14-hour spread-over, these figures are maxima and most schedules at the moment do not reach the ceiling we are providing for. But this will give flexibility. On many schedules, this is one of the problems of peak hour operations and drivers' hours generally. Almost every day, the crew start and finish work at different times. We have not made an arithmetical error by adding 14 and 11 and thinking that it made 24.
The 16-hour provision was particularly requested as an exceptional measure by the contract and express operators and applies only to them, to provide for a party going on a day's outing to a football match, or to the seaside, where the party does not want to come back too early. They may want to be away 16 hours, but the driver would be driving only two or three hours at the beginning and end of the journey. In the middle, he would be watching the match or having some recreation. It would be difficult without a long spread-over to meet this particular need. It is not intended that the stage carriage operators should use all the 16 hour period.
I thank the House for the considerate way in which it has considered the Order. I apologise again for the complexity. I also thank the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments for its great kindness to us and I endorse the tribute already paid to it for the great work, unheard for the most part, which it does behind the scenes to assist us in these important matters.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Drivers' Hours (Passenger Vehicles) (Modifications) Order 1970, a draft of which was laid before this House on 19th February, be approved.

CAPITAL GAINS TAX (MR. JOHN PENDLEBURY)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Ernest G. Perry.]
11.14 p.m.
Mr. David Waddington: I am glad of this opportunity to raise a case which illustrates some of the things which are wrong with our tax system. This case is a good example of how the long-term capital gains tax, hailed in 1965 by hon. Gentlemen opposite as a splendid device for soaking the rich, can be used as a hefty stick with which to beat the small man over the head.
It is an example of how, because of the complexities of the tax system, the humble citizen—who, more often than not, does not have the advice of an accountant—may pay substantial sums in tax which he is in no way obliged by law to pay. It is an example also of how our harassed and overworked tax inspectors, while doing their best to implement a mass of complicated legislation, sometimes fail to make absolutely clear to the citizen just what his rights are. I wish to emphasise, however, that the inspectors should not have to bear any blame for what occurred in this case. The fault lies with the system and the Government who created it.
In 1964, Mr. John Pendlebury became the tenant of the Kings Arms Hotel, in Pateley Bridge, Yorkshire. Unfortunately, the house did not prosper, the inhabitants of the West Riding perhaps being more thrifty than thirsty. As a result, in 1968 the house was referred for compensation, and the upshot was that Mr. Pendlebury, as the licensee, received £548, that being his share of the moneys paid out from the compensation fund.
Mr. Pendlebury had no other job to which to go. Apart from during a few months in 1969, he has been out of work. Imagine his surprise when, on 20th January of this year, he received a letter from Her Majesty's Inspector of Taxes at Ripon, in these terms:
"I refer to your receipt of compensation for the refund licence of the Kings Arms Hotel, Pateley Bridge, in February 1968. This payment of compensation made was an occasion of charge for Capital Gains Tax purposes. I

1363
propose therefore to assess £455 for the year 1967/68 arrived at as follows:—

Goodwill disposal price

...

...

£548

Cost

...

...

Nil

Gain

...

...

£548

Chargeable Gain 34½/41½ X £548

£455

A formal Notice of Assessment will be issued shortly."
There was no attempt in the letter to explain the computation which, to Mr. Pendlebury, was utter gibberish. Nor was the letter accompanied by any pamphlet explaining to the taxpayer his rights in the matter.
Some hon. Members will know that, by virtue of Schedule 6(24) of the Finance Act, 1965, the amount of liability to capital gains tax is assessed by apportioning the overall gain in the value of the asset on a time basis to and from 6th April, 1965; and this is the explanation for the fraction in the letter. In other words, Mr. Pendlebury was in the public house for 41½ months, 34½ of which occurred after 6th April, 1965.
Some hon. Members may also know that under Schedule 6(25) of that Act a taxpayer can elect to have his gain calculated on a different basis; namely, by reference to the market value of the asset at 6th April, 1965, and it might be thought that Mr. Pendlebury would have been told of that right. But no. Not a word about this option was whispered to him and had he not come to see me—not about this matter, but about whether he was entitled to unemployment benefit—that would have been the end of the matter. The State would have extracted from a taxpayer money to which it was in no way entitled.
Naturally, I took the matter up with the inspector, pointing out that I could not see how it could be contended that there had been any increase in the value of the goodwill attached to the public house since 1965 because, obviously, the public house had been going downhill rather than uphill, otherwise it would not have been declared redundant.
I received a reply from the inspector on 3rd February. I need not trouble the House with the first two paragraphs of the letter. Suffice it to say that the inspector there explained how his assessment was arrived at on the time apportionment basis—in other words, he ex-
1364
plained the mathematics. In the last paragraph he said this:
"If the taxpayer wishes, it is open to him to have the chargeable gain calculated by reference to the market value of the asset at 6th April, 1965. To do this he must make a formal election to have the gain so calculated and once made the election is irrevocable even if found to produce a larger chargeable gain than the normal time apportionment basis. I would agree with you that in this case it is unlikely that there was any appreciation of value in goodwill between 6th April, 1965, and March, 1968. If Mr. Pendlebury will let me have a formal election as mentioned above, the assessment will be reduced to nil. Two leaflets explaining the position re elections are enclosed."
I quickly pass over the fact that the time to send the taxpayer leaflets explaining his rights is not when someone else has already, fortunately, pointed out those rights to him and after the matter has already been put into the hands of the tax collector and a demand for payment is already in the post to him, because such was the case here. That right should be pointed out to the taxpayer at the outset, at the time when it is first proposed to make the assessment.
I pass over that, however, because I do not think it right, as I said before, that the blame for this incident should rest on the inspector. I say that there is something seriously wrong with the system when this sort of thing can happen. I therefore ask the Minister for an assurance that he will do his utmost to ensure that there is no repetition of this and that taxpayers are informed of their rights at the outset.
In conclusion, I am not impressed with the letter which the Minister sent me on 17th February. He there seemed to be suggesting that perhaps after all there might have been a chargeable gain, even if one did take as the base figure 6th April, 1965, and that Mr. Pendlebury was a lucky man and had been treated quite generously.
To that I make these short replies. First, it is sheer nonsense to suggest that there was any gain, for the reasons that I have already advanced, namely, that the public house was going downhill. Second, the inspector, when he wrote to me on 3rd February, seemed sure that there was no liability if an election was made: he did not seem to have the doubts which the Minister now seems to have. Third, if there was any generosity of spirit

1365
abroad, it took a remarkably long time revealing itself.
The Minister knows perfectly well what the real point in this case is. It is one that cannot be avoided by a specious argument as to which method of computation in the particular case would have been more advantageous to the taxpayer. The point is a very simple one. Why was not the taxpayer told that he had an election. Is this the sort of thing that often happens? If so, what is to be done to put a stop to it?
11.23 p.m.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Dick Taverne): The hon. Gentleman the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Waddington) started by criticising the, long-term capital gains tax because it occasionally hit the small man. The principle behind the capital gains tax was accepted by his party. Indeed, it was introduced by his party when the right hon. and learned Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd) introduced the short-term capital gains tax, which runs at a higher rate in most cases than the long-term capital gains tax.
The principle simply is that, if there is a tax on income, it is reasonable that there should also be a tax on other forms of receipts which are just as valuable as income in the hands of those who receive them. This is one way of broadening the base of taxation. There is, of course, an exemption for capital gains of a small amount below the sum of £50. It is otherwise applicable to all kinds of capital gains, irrespective of whether someone is a millionaire or rather less fortunate.
However, the hon. Member was mainly concerned with the election in certain cases to have a valuation at the date of 6th April 1965. I should like, first, to say something about the election. Theoretically, the right basis would in all cases be the value of the asset as at 6th April 1965, but if this were applied, the work which would devolve on the Revenue would be too great, because with unquoted securities, chattels, lands and other things which are not necessarily easily referable to some quotation it would be an enormous task to value the asset.
1366
Therefore, to ease the work and, at the same time, to benefit the taxpayer, the basis which was produced was that one took the date, provided that it was after 1945, or otherwise notionally in 1945, on which the asset was purchased or acquired and compared that with the sale price or the realisation price which came into the hands of the taxpayer at a subsequent date, and then apportioned the gain over the period, excluding that part of it which was derived during the period before April, 1965.
In case the taxpayer should be in certain cases disadvantageously affected, an option was provided to choose the 6th April, 1965, valuation instead. This is a system which is both less onerous in work and by and large fairer to the taxpayer than simply to go on the 6th April, 1965, valuation.
The hon. Members said that the individual was never informed at any stage that there was such a right, but, in fact, it is clearly stated on the tax return forms that in the case of any capital gain anyone has this right of election. Nevertheless, there are many occasions on which it is only right that taxpayers should be reminded that they have this right of the alternative option of valuation at 6th April, 1965.
The hon. Member is making the criticism that this was one of those cases where that should have been obvious. First, the right of compensation in these cases arises very rarely. The right to compensation arises only if the premises in question have been licensed before 1904, which is not something to be found every day. There is some difficulty in determining what asset it is which has appreciated in value.
The general view which was taken by the Revenue in the past was that the asset on which the gain had been made, if any, was the licence which was held by the licensee. If this was the correct view to take, clearly, the time apportionment basis would almost invariably be the most favourable for the person concerned.
In this case Mr. Pendlebury did not pay anything to acquire the licence by way of capital sum. Since some of the difference between the compensation eventually received and the original licence could be apportioned to the period

1367
before 1965, it was obviously advantageous to apply the time apportionment basis.
When the matter was raised by the hon. Member, the inspector looked at this again and decided that he should not treat this as a licence, but as an asset which was in being and which had the same sort of value in 1965 as it had when compensation was eventually received.
It is not an easy matter. It is by no means absolutely clear what is the right basis on which to assess, but, after looking at the matter carefully, the Revenue decided that perhaps it was not correct to look at the licence as the asset, but the right to compensation as the asset which was potentially always there, to regard the right to compensation as the asset.
If that is the basis on which the asset should be judged, it is possible for the asset to be worth as much in 1965 as it was later, and it might be more favourable to the taxpayer to go for the option of the 6th April, 1965, basis instead of the time apportionment basis. It is not an easy matter. Originally, the in-sector assumed, as had generally been accepted to be the basis by the Inland Revenue, that this was a case where time apportionment always favoured the taxpayer.
The position of other taxpayers is that the right of election is clearly stated in
1368
the return form. A special form—the C.G.21 form—is issued by inspectors whenever they think that the taxpayer may be prejudiced by making the wrong election. The form warns him of the dangers, in certain circumstances, of making an election on one basis rather than another, and what the various reasons for one election rather than another should be.
Certainly, in these cases, in future, since the Revenue has reviewed the basis on which the capital gains charge becomes payable, the C.G.21 form will now invariably go out. But this was not clear before. The situation is not simple. It is a rather rare case. But on the basis on which the Revenue previously worked it was correct and natural for the inspector to feel that the time apportionment basis was likely to be more favourable, and that the issue of this notice was not called for.
The case of Mr. Pendlebury has changed the basis on which this rather rare charge is made. The basis has been reviewed, and a different assessment has now been arrived at for the basis of charge. I am glad to say that in Mr. Pendlebury's case the result has been that he has not had to pay tax, and that in future, in rare cases of this sort, the C.G.21 form will be issued by inspectors.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-nine minutes to Twelve o'clock.

BOARD OF TRADE
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Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Manchester):
The Lord Chancellor on the Woolsack.

BARONESS MASHAM OF ILTON
Susan Lilian Primrose Cunliffe-Lister, wife of David Yarburgh Cunliffe-Lister, commonly called Lord Masham, having been created Baroness Masham of Ilton, of Masham in the North Riding of the County of York, for life—Was, in her robes, introduced between the Lord Bolton and the Baroness Brooke of Ystradfellte.

COMPTON BASSETT SITE: RIGHTS OF FORMER OWNER'S SON
2.40 p.m.
LORD OAKSHOTT: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the 36¾ acres of agricultural land near Compton Bassett, Wiltshire, acquired by the Air Ministry during the war from the late Mr. Henly under threat of compulsion, was ever offered back at the present market price to his son.]
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE, R.A.F. (Lord Winterbottom): My Lords, the land formerly owned by Mr. Henly's father has not been offered back to his son. This is because the local planning authority have indicated that they are prepared to grant planning permission for sand extraction at Compton Bassett. Land with such development potential is unlikely to remain in agricultural use and it was not considered appropriate for return to Mr. Henly. The noble Lord may find it helpful to refer to the Written Answer given by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury in
48
the Official Report of another place for January 19, 1970, which deals with the circumstances in which consideration is given to the claims of former owners in disposing of agricultural land surplus to the requirements of a Government Department.
LORD OAKSHOTT: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer, and also for being kind enough to send me a copy of the Written Answer to which he referred. May I ask the noble Lord, to start with, is it not obvious that Mr. Henly's son qualifies under the principles enunciated in this particular Answer? Secondly, as regards the land itself, does this not also qualify, in that it is agricultural land and, according to my information, is being used for agriculture? Ought not this land to have been offered back to Mr. Henly's son? Has not a pretty serious injustice been done here?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, this is a difficult subject and, somewhat naturally, all Governments are sensitive to the interests of owners whose land was obtained either by compulsory purchase or threat of compulsory purchase during the last war. But the hard fact of the case is that under the regulations the land must still be predominantly agricultural in nature when it becomes surplus to the requirements of the Government Department. The definition as to whether it is agricultural in nature or not depends upon the planning permission which covers it. In this particular case the local planning authority have said that they are prepared to give planning permission for sand to be extracted from this piece of land, and indeed from the neighbouring land with which it was lumped together. This makes the sand extraction an immediate commercial proposition, and the value of the land when it was sold by public auction reflected this potential. The Ministry of Defence are forced, when selling land, to sell it at the current market value, and since the value of this land with planning permission for sand extraction was so much greater than that for its use as agricultural land the course of action followed by my Department took the course it did.
LORD OAKSHOTT: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord again for that further answer. May I ask whether it is

49
not the case that the existence of sand in this farm was already known at the time of the original acquisition by the Air Ministry; that the name of the farm is "Sands Farm"; that sand was then being extracted from there; that the proposed rate of extraction is only about five acres a year, so that the land could easily be made usable for agricultural purposes by a simple annual reseeding of that five acres?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, !he noble Lord is correct in saying that the existence of the sand was known at the time the land was bought and this influenced the price at which the land was bought by the Government during the war. Admittedly the price was a very great deal lower then than it is now, but unfortunately, as we all know, there is no legislation to ensure automatically that the land is restored to its original condition after the extraction of sand, as for instance in the case of the extraction of iron ore. Therefore it could not be said at this stage that the restoration of the land to agricultural use was a certainty or even a probability.
Lord BROOKE OF CUMNOR: My Lords, can the noble Lord inform us when this departure from the practice that was made known after the Crichel Down case was announced to Parliament? Is it not the case that the practice was that if the land was predominantly of agricultural character it should be offered back to the owner or his heir or successor without regard to what planning permission had been or might be given? Is the noble Lord aware that although that might affect the price it certainly should not have affected the right to receive an offer back?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, perhaps the clearest statement of the present policy is the statement made by my honourable friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury on January 19 this year.
LORD HENLEY: My Lords, has the noble Lord answered the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Brooks of Cumnor? The question was: why was the law altered by an instruction—a private and confidential instruction to the Government Departments—changing the practice which was agreed upon after
50
Crichel Down? The noble Lord has not answered that question.
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, the law has not been altered. We have at all times been talking about the use of land for agriculture. This land will not be used for agriculture; and when a Government Department disposes of land it has to be sold at the current market value. The current market value in this case depended on the right to extract sand from it.
LORD LINDGREN: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord what is the difference between a private landLord getting the advantage of increased land value and the Government getting the advantage of increased land value?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: That, my Lords, is an interesting point and rather illustrates the reason why the Government act as they do.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord what was the price at which the land was taken from Mr. Henly, and what is the price at which it is being sold now?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, the final price of the land, after negotiation reflecting the fact that there was extractable sand under it, was £1,500. I am not in a position to inform the noble Marquess of the exact price paid for it recently but I will write to him.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I am sorry if I am making a mistake, but may I ask my noble friend whether I understood from him that the law had been changed since Crichel Down? If that is the case, could he tell me in what respect it has been changed?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I have already said that the law has not been changed.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, first, whether in this case the Government make any distinction between land acquired compulsorily and land acquired under threat of compulsion? Secondly, the noble Lord referred from time to time to present regulations. Even though they may not imply any change in the law since 1953

51
(of which I have the clearest recollection), can he say whether what he calls the present regulations differ in any respect from the procedure which was made clear in Parliament after the incident that goes by the name of Crichel Down?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, the Crichel Down procedure was laid down some susbtantial time ago. Since then legislation has been brought into being which has had to be interpreted in terms of administrative instructions to Departments on how to operate the Crichel Down procedure in the light of new legislation. That is why procedures are redefined from time to time. The clearest statement of the present way in which these procedures are interpreted was given by my honourable friend in another place on January 19.
LORD HENLEY: My Lords, why is the instruction confidential?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I think that there are a great many confidential instructions, but the principle was made clear in my honourable friend's statement.
VISCOUNT ECCLES: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this land is in my old constituency? I know the Henly family very well, and the trouble this is causing in Calne and round about is very severe. Surely the Government ought to take into account the fact that all the people down there think that this is a most high-handed and arbitrary action.
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, Governments are often accused of being high-handed and arbitrary, but I think that on balance the Crichel Down procedure has been fairly applied and has kept a proper balance between the interests of the Government and the interests of the individual.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, as Chairman of the Council on Tribunals, may I ask my noble friend whether he would be kind enough to send to my Council details of the interpretation of this procedure?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I presume that my noble friend reads Hansard.
Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY: My noble friend is quite correct; but will he please send the information to my Council?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I have noted what my noble friend has said.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I am afraid that that is not enough. I think that is important. I am asking my noble friend whether he will kindly send to the Council on Tribunals the interpretation of the Crichel Down procedure which has led to this matter and to which he has just referred.
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I will consult my right honourable friend and let my noble friend know.
LORD BROOKE of CUMNOR: My Lords, that answer is not really satisfactory. Is the noble Lord not aware that this is clearly a matter within the sphere of interest of the Council on Tribunals? There should be absolutely no question whatever about a Minister responding favourably to a request of that sort.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shackleton): My Lords, I think that this discussion is going a little far. I hope that noble Lords will appreciate that I am not interfering on behalf of the Government. I realise that noble Lords are on to something which they regard as of considerable importance, but the last few questions, though relevant, did not bear directly on the original Question. It may be that noble Lords want to consider the information or, as they may believe, the lack of information that they have had. This is something about which we need to think a little more. I am not trying to stop my noble friend Lady Burton of Coventry. Her remarks have been noted and my noble friend who is replying for the Government clearly has to consult his right honourable friend on the subject. I am sure that he will try to meet my noble friend's wishes.

RAILWAYS: ADVANCED PASSENGER TRAIN PROJECT
2.53 p.m.
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what are the anticipated future earnings for British Railways following their agreement for an American company to develop under licence the advanced passenger train technology.]
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, it would not be in the commercial interest of either of the parties to the agreement to publish estimates of this kind. I can only say that it is expected that the Railways Board will eventually earn substantial sums in royalties.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, while I appreciate the noble Lord's reply, can he say whether the development costs of this project will be borne equally between the British Railways Board and the company? Could he also say whether other countries have expressed an interest in this project?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, as regards the noble Earl's first supplementary question, I believe that the cost is split fifty-fifty between British Railways and the Ministry of Transport. I cannot tell the noble Lord whether other countries, apart from the United Stales, are interested in this project.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, can the noble Lord also advise the House of the anticipated time when the project will come into service?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, the prototype trains should be in service by 1974.

RAILWAY LEVEL CROSSING ACCIDENTS
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of the recent accidents at railway level crossings, what, if any, extra safeguards the British Railways Board intend to introduce.]
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, the Railways Board are taking action on three broad fronts. First, they are pressing ahead with the modifications to existing automatic half-barrier crossings as recommended in the Report of the Hixon Level Crossing Inquiry. Secondly, they are seeking to agree arrangements with farmers and landowners for the provision of additional safety measures at particular private crossings. Thirdly, they are, in conjunction with my right honourable friend the Minister of Transport, reviewing the adequacy of existing safety measures at those crossings on private roads which are regularly used by members of the public.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask whether he can say how many of the 8,600 farm crossings have so far been improved? Is it left to the individual farmer to approach the Railways Board on this matter? And what has been the average cost to each farmer of these improvements?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I should be grateful if I might write to the noble Earl in answer to these detailed questions. I am sure the information is available, but I am afraid that I have not got it at this moment.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, on the automatic half-barriers, could the noble Lord say how soon the Traffic Sign Regulations 1969 will be implemented and whether local authorities have been asked to contribute to the costs?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, as regards automatic half-barriers, the programme is in hand and all but particularly difficult sites should be completed by the end of April—that is, the extended time cycles on the barriers. The erection of new signs and road markings is virtually complete, and installation of the new traffic light signals, with amber phase and "Another Train Coming" signs, has commenced. I cannot tell the noble Earl how the cost is spread, but again I will let him know.

NATIONAL COUNCIL FOR CIVIL LIBERTIES: POLICE SEIZURE OF MAIL
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government on what ground representatives of the obscene publications police squad visited the house of Mr. Tony Smythe, the secretary of the National Council for Civil Liberties, after confiscating literature in the post addressed to the Council; and whether in view of the announcement by the Home Secretary that the Director of Public Prosecutions will not initiate proceedings, the literature will be made available to the Council for consideration.]
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, this visit, which took place at 8.20 a.m. on January 23, 1970, was made by members of the Metropolitan Police Force at the request of the Director of Public Prosecutions, following the submission to him by the postal authorities of material addressed to Mr. Smythe from Denmark, which had been intercepted in the post. The object of the visit was to ascertain from Mr. Smythe how it had come about that the literature was addressed to him. Following consideration of the circumstances, it has been decided that proceedings shall not be instituted, and Mr. Smythe has been informed accordingly. If he still wishes the material to be made available to him it will be necessary to discuss with him the basis on which this is to be done.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend, may I ask him two supplementary questions? First, is it not rather extraordinary that the police should visit a respectable and responsible public figure in this way, just because there has been posted to him some material which has been regarded as pornographic? It may happen to any of us. Secondly, when material is posted to anyone, have the police the right to seize it without informing the potential recipient and without the potential recipient having any right to judge their action in confiscating it? If they have this right, is it not an extraordinary, bureaucratic, official power, which those of us who believe in liberty ought to resist?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, I am asked whether it is extraordinary for the police to visit Mr. Smythe. I do not find this extraordinary at all. What I find extraordinary is the lack of co-operation which Mr. Smythe showed to the police authorities in the first place. They called round to his office. He was not there. They invited him to contact them and make an appointment, and although he admits having had this message he ignored the suggestion put to him by the police. As for the right to intercept material of this kind, it is clearly laid down by Parliament that the Customs have powers, under Section 294 of the Customs and Excise Act 1952, to intercept packages which they suspect contain pornographic material. And, having seen the material in question, I am not surprised that they caused investigations to be made.

GOVERNMENT STATEMENTS
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, at a convenient time after half-past three my noble friend Lord Winterbottom will be making a Statement on the pay of the Armed Forces. After that I shall be making a Statement on attacks on aircraft. May I remind your Lordships that dinner is available tonight between seven o'clock and eight-thirty.
LIVERPOOL CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed to the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
NATIONAL TRUST BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and referred to the Examiners.
NORTH RIDING COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed to the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
NOTTINGHAMSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a, and committed to a Select Committee.

BROADCASTING POLICY FOR SOUND RADIO
3.2 p.m.
LORD GLADWYN LORD GLADWYN rose to call attention to the proposed reorganisation of the B.B.C. sound programmes and in particular to the suppression of the Third Programme, generally regarded by those competent to judge as the most satisfying and culturally significant programme in the world; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, before I begin my remarks I should like to say how pleased we are that the Leader of the House will be present for the first part of this debate, and will sum up, although he may have to go away in the middle of the debate. I understand that he made a great effort to be present, and we are all grateful to him: this shows the importance that he attaches to the occasion.
When I first put down this Motion a little while ago it was in a mood of great indignation at what I conceived to be the total suppression of my own favourite programme—the Third. Since then I have come to recognise that the B.B.C. have at least made certain concessions —notably the retention of Radio 3 on the medium-wave band so that we can all continue to listen to it, if we want to, in our cars; the suspension of the liquidation of the orchestras (which is a real concession), including the Training Orchestra, which costs a great deal of money; and rather more "word" content than was originally proposed to the Third Programme. These are all very welcome. It shows what public opinion can do when it tries, and that is a good thing.
But we on these Benches, at any rate, still have some real apprehensions regarding the future of this programme, and still more about the whole new sound broadcasting policy of the B.B.C, which, as your Lordships know, was outlined last summer in a document called Broadcasting in the 'Seventies. That is why we have now put down this Motion on a Liberal day. We believe, in any case, that this is a subject very well suited for debate in your Lordships' House, and I should hope that we should debate it not in any spirit of political partisanship, but rather as an impartial investigation. Judging from the debate in another place
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on December 3, it looks as if the major Parties were divided to some extent on this issue, and it is even possible that all three Parties may be.
Since I feel that the reactions of us all to this problem are necessarily rather subjective, perhaps I may, with your Lordships' leave, describe in a few words my own general attitude, which can scarcely be described as that of an "egg-head"—at least, I do not think it can. I am not, admittedly, a great television fan, though I appreciate both B.B.C. 1 and B.B.C. 2, and indeed Anglia, which covers the region where I live. I believe that all these programmes make a genuine effort to achieve quality, in spite of the real difficulties in so doing. In particular B.B.C. 2 seems to me to be greatly superior to any foreign television programme I have seen, though I admit that I have not seen many.
I am, however, particularly devoted to sound radio, to which I hope this debate will be limited, partly because I personally much prefer listening to viewing, as it is called, and partly because I spend many hours in a car and thus depend on my wireless set during long and tedious journeys. I am not particularly musical, but I much enjoy listening to much modern music, to classical music and to opera. Though I recognise that there are some splendid modern songs, I confess that I am pretty allergic to "pop", much of which seems to me, frankly, to be verging on the drivelling; and I simply detest the greater part of what I believe is now called "sweet" music. I like listening to talks—that is, if the speaker knows what he is talking about and is either interesting or amusing. In general, I like the strange, the unexpected, the provocative. I like drama, whether classical or modern. To 6e Gocunccarov f]6u, as the Greeks had it: it is the astonishing which is the thing. It is said that when Diaghilev met Cocteau he used to lean back and say: "Etonne-moi". That is basically what I expect the Director of the Third Programme to do to me; and I must say that so far he often has. All this explains why I am personally much attached to the old Third Programme.
But I find the present Radio 4, the old Home Service, to have many good features, too. I often listen to the golden voice of Jack Di Manio, which puts me

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in a good humour before breakfast (but I have heard a sinister rumour that he is not going to continue, and I hope that this can be contradicted); my favourite comic character is Monty Modlin; and I think the new "Petticoat Line" is very funny. I also like the brisk journalism of "The World at One", and I usually listen to the later versions of the "News" and subsequent comment. In all this I suspect that I am typical of a fairly large section of reasonably well-educated and moderately intelligent listeners. Nor do 1 suppose that all those with my tastes necessarily belong to my top-level age group. Can it really be supposed that all, or even an overwhelming majority, of our young people tune in to nothing but "pop", or that all our middle-aged ladies are entirely dedicated to unadulterated saccharin?
What, I wonder, is the proportion of our now highly educated young people who listen at any rate occasionally to Radio 3. I believe that about 1½ million people tune into it at least once a week, which is considerable. According to Mr. George Mansell, the B.B.C. Director of Programmes,
"Radio's traditional intellectual categories were based on cultural and educational assumptions that may well have been valid immediately before the war",
but they are invalid now (he goes on to say), owing, first of all, to the Butler Education Act of 1944, then to paper-backs, then to the "rise to culture", as he says, of masses of young people now in their twenties and thirties, and finally, to "the impact of television" Maybe. But if that is so, then surely the conclusion is either that our postwar education has been a ghastly failure, or that people under 30, as opposed to their unregenerate elders, should increasingly be tuning in to Radio 3. In other words, I just do not believe that the present audience of Radio 3, though obviously a small minority, is limited to a few dons and specialists and representatives of an out-of-date and largely forgotten intellectual era.
It is for that reason that I disagree profoundly with a recent pronouncement of the Economist, echoed by quite a few organs of the more popular Press, to the effect that, whether we like it or not, the only thing that now matters is television, and that we had much better disregard
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the present public criticism of Broadcasting in the 'Seventies and allow sound radio to die a natural death. For if this does happen we shall, I fear, have taken a long step towards the abandonment of those intellectual standards and disciplines which have so far been our glory as a great European country, and towards the largely mindless society of 1984, when you may remember, my Lords, if you have read the book, a leading article in The Times (not, of course, under its present enlightened editor) gave currency in the "newspeak language" to the unforgettable phrase" Oldthinkers unbellyfull Ingsoc", or, as we should say in our old-fashioned jargon, "those whose ideas were formed before the Revolution cannot have a full emotional understanding of the principles of English socialism". While I am on the subject of The Times, I should like to congratulate it on the great part it has played recently in bringing the present controversy into the open so that it may at least be the subject of intelligent debate.
Is it not, on the contrary, possible that if "old-fashioned" intellectual values are to some extent retained, quite a number of young people, after a few more years exposure to television, will (more especially if standards are lowered) get heartily sick of the box itself, and concentrate on records and tapes, and special "library" facilities, as I think they are called, for getting any programmes they like repeated, with no doubt disastrous results on the sales of colour sets and the advertising industry generally? That, indeed, would be one of the ways in which the new generation, if they so desired, might really change our present industrialised society, with which so many of them profess to be disenchanted.
But all this, my Lords, is only by way of introduction to show that I am not perhaps myself in a small cultural minority, and in the hope that it may stimulate you to produce some really constructive and practical ideas of your own. What, then, do we continue to object to? When I say "we" I mean those of us on these Benches. We have indeed objections to the B.B.C. proposals, even after the welcome modifications to the stark, schematic programmes laid down in Broadcasting in the 'Seventies, which, surprisingly enough, was approved in all its original rigour by the B.B.C.

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Governors, including that great academic, the noble Lord, Lord Fulton. The noble Lord seems, on this issue, to be rather out of step with his fellow academics, except, one need hardly say, Mr. A. J. P. Taylor.
Before explaining our objections, may I just say that I believe much heart-burning could have been avoided if the management of the B.B.C. had taken the staff fully into their confidence at a rather earlier stage and paid at least some attention to their views? I know that consultations took place, and I believe they were in strict accordance with the rules; but sometimes it is a good thing to stretch the rules a little. With regard to my general criticism, then, in the first place I wholeheartedly agree at least in this with the Leader of the Tory Party: that the B.B.C. should have as its principal aim the preservation of quality. After all, it has a monopoly of sound radio, and there is no desperate need for it to go in above all for popularity, as any commercial system is bound to do. The judge of quality must, in other words, be itself and not the audience. If you just go by mass ratings, quality will inevitably fall off. A referendum on whether we should continue to spend millions on the opera would certainly result in the abolition of Covent Garden. Even a referendum on the maintenance of the National Gallery might have a similar result. Vox populi, in other words, is not in the realm of culture, Vox Dei, at all.
It would seem to follow that while the B.B.C. must, naturally, cater for all tastes if it is not to lose its audience altogether, it should be especially careful not only to cater for minorities—and those who care for good music and intellectual drama are in a small minority —but also to see to it that even on the most "popular" programmes some effort is made to escape from complete vulgarity, in the proper sense of that word. But it would surely also follow that this—and more especially in catering for minority tastes—can be accomplished only if the money is available. And, as we all know, the Corporation, largely owing to the lamentable failure by the Government to collect £7 million of listeners' fees, and another £2 million on unlicensed car radios, is now in the red.
In spite of this, however, the Corporation will shortly have to spend large sums of money on 40 local stations, only eight of which are at present operating. It is widely believed (although I think denied by the Corporation) that it had to do this in order to induce the Government to increase the licence fee by about 5 per cent., bringing in an additional £5·5 million a year, all of which, and more, will go to the local stations. Since, however, this will still result in a general shortage of cash, it has had to stream-line the national programmes and largely demobilise the three existing regional systems. Hinc illae lacrymae, to use the expression of a vanished cultural epoch. In other words, that is what the present row is about. Of course, if only the Government could be induced to put another 10s. on the licence fee, most of our troubles would disappear, since they could then have local broadcasting and a satisfactory Third Programme as well. Is this really impossible? That is the first question I should like to ask the Government; and it is a question to which 1 should like the noble Lord the Leader of the House, if possible, to give a reply.
A general criticism of the present policy within the existing financial limits is, however, valid on several grounds. In the first place, the whole idea of "streaming", or of what is now called "generic" broadcasting, though it has, as the B.B.C. points out, to some extent been acceptable in the Music Programme, is surely vicious and almost bound to lead in the long run to a drop in standards. Its chief object, clearly, is to save money and to assist administration; but in so doing it diminishes the responsibility of the producers and inhibits their ability to turn out original work. All these artists—for that is what they are—will now simply have to adapt themselves to their particular stream. And the whole thing will become increasingly standardised, which is inevitable if money is the chief, if not the sole, consideration.
It is not an adequate argument, I suggest, to say that a number of items previously appearing on Radio 3 may now figure on Radio 4, thus improving the quality of the latter. The point is that the old Third Programme was encouraged to produce plays, for instance, that were

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frankly experimental, and some of them, obviously, were a terrible flop. This kind of thing cannot be done on a popular programme, any more than it can be done on television, without an uproar. Much material, in other words, which is admirable for Radio 3 is just not suitable for Radio 4, even if some of it can be adapted.
It is true, as I said at the beginning of my remarks, that the full rigour of streaming has been modified to some extent so far as Radio 3 is concerned, but it has not been modified enough. That, at any rate, seems to be the almost unanimous opinion of those concerned in its production. And it is certainly, if we judge from the Press, the reaction of the bulk of the minority audience of Radio 3, also. The danger is surely there. However good the intentions of the Corporation may be—and I do not accept that they are wholly good; because I feel, rightly or wrongly, that they have been driven along by their political paymasters—the principle will gradually erode the Third Programme and deprive it of its special character. That is really my grouse.
Let us now, therefore, look at some famous individual contributions in the past to the Third Programme. About twenty years ago the Third Programme staged a fascinating two-hour dialogue between the great Bertrand Russell and Father Coplestone on the existence of God. Does anybody think that anything like this would from now on have a chance of appearing in the seven or eight hours a week devoted to "words", much of which of course will very probably be drama, in what will from now on anyhow be predominantly a musical programme? I can well imagine, for instance, the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton—whom I am very glad to see in his place, even though he cannot, owing to what I believe is an unfortunate rule (which I hope may be changed) participate in the debate—saying, "Two hours on the existence of God! What a waste of time, when we could stage the debate on ' Panorama' and Robin Day could sum up the whole thing in two minutes!"
But, more seriously, my Lords, is it really that Radio 3 as it may now emerge is in the least likely to produce, as it has done in the past, the works of new
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and controversial dramatists, who subsequently become accepted and greatly increase our cultural reputation abroad? And what about the recent 2½-hour discussion on" the permissive society "in which Michael Foot and the Warden of All Souls took part; or the three-hour discussion on "War and Morality" chaired by Philip Winsor? Are we going to hear this sort of thing again if Mr. Curran has his way? Not on your life!
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I wonder whether I might interrupt the noble Lord. Could he tell us what his reasons are, and what his evidence is, for his statements that it is very unlikely that programmes of this kind will go on in the future? I have heard it constantly asserted, but I have never seen any direct evidence on the particular type of programme that he was talking about.
LORD GLADWYN: The answer to that, my Lords, is that there is not enough money to run the programme as previously. It has therefore to be reduced to a large extent. There is consequently not in the time available for "words" place for a two- or three-hour dialogue of the kind I have referred to. There is not enough money and there is not enough time. That is what I think, anyway.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I think the noble Lord ought to give more reason. He is talking about some of the very cheapest programmes. He has said that he does not believe, and does not think anybody believes, that programmes of this type will go on in the future. These are assertions of the kind about which I think he ought to have some evidence.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, I think the result of the reforms may be that we may have 20 minutes on the existence of God, but not two hours. If it is a fact that we are going to have two or three hours on discussions on the existence of God or the permissive society, then so much the better; but I very much doubt it.
The new Vice-Chancellor of the University of Leeds has further suggested that I might recall the pungent series on David Hume, the philosopher, covering his work from every angle—and sometimes very critically; or the series of talks by Ronald Hepburn, Renford Bamborough and

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others, which explored very fully the religious philosophy of those who, like Goethe's Faust, "hear the message but lack the faith". In spite of what the noble Lord the Leader of the House has said, the essential point is that up to now, at any rate, British sound radio has not, like television, been beset by triviality and the air of show business. From now on, if we do not look out, it will. Even if this point is not appreciated, as it may not be, the maintenance of London as a great cultural centre is surely worth a great deal in terms of pounds, shillings and pence. And if there is any doubt on this point, perhaps the doubters could refer to Miss Jennie Lee, and no doubt the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, will have something to say on the subject—I hope indeed that he will.
At the risk of speaking for too long, I should like to say just a word here on the musical side. As we all know, Radio 3 is from now on going to consist fundamentally of first-class music, and that in itself is excellent. But there is one matter which is giving rise to apprehensions. There will from now on, it seems, be less relaying of operas and concerts. Since these operas and concerts are often performances subsidised by the State it seems that such an economy might very well defeat its own purpose. That is what I have been led to believe. I should there-fore much welcome the precise figures in regard to relays, if the Government, assisted by the B.B.C., can provide them. It also appears—and, as I say, I speak subject to correction—that much "live" music may now be replaced by records— "more needle-time" as the phrase is, I think. Will not this mean penalising young composers whose works may very well not yet have been recorded? A reassurance on this point would be very welcome, too.
Thirdly, it seems that the Wednesday choral service from various cathedrals, which I think is now transmitted on Radio 4, is going to be largely suppressed; at any rate, a weekly service is going to be replaced by a monthly one. This will be a real disappointment not only to many who love the glorious Anglican Church music but also to thousands of the bedridden who cannot get to then-cathedrals at all. Does this particularly appreciated programme really have to be largely sacrificed on the altar of cost
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efficiency? Perhaps the Government will answer that question, too.
We thus approach the whole question of local broadcasting and the consequential phasing out, as it were, to a large extent of the present regions. There may be a case for 40 local very high frequency stations—though, incidentally, why 40? It seems to be an odd number—and some of the existing ones are, I believe, functioning very well within their narrow limits. But it seems rather odd that at a moment when everyone, including Lord Redcliffe-Maud, seems to be thinking in terms of regional devolution, we should virutally destroy the chief means of giving expression to a regional, as opposed to a purely local, consciousness. The Corporation says that it can still make profitable use of the great talent embodied in the present three regional organisations; but the persons concerned do not actually seem to think so and fear rather—this fear may be unjustified, but they fear—that all initiative will be lost and that, apart from local news, all regional broadcasts will now effectively be run from London. If this is not so, perhaps I may be given an assurance by the Government's saying that it is not so. Would it not be better to have regional networks that would tie in with Maud and give them real responsibility for at any rate some creative work, and not make them dependent to any large degree for serious programmes on the centre?
While I am on this aspect, may I add just one word to say how much I myself deplore the loss of identity, as I think it is called, of the old European Service, which has now become merged in a World Service. I was wondering whether the Government would be inclined to share this view at a moment when they are doing their best to enter the European Economic Community?
As for local commercial radio—it may be that the Tory policies include it and would encourage it—I must say that I myself cannot betray any enthusiasm. Judging from America it would, in order to pay for itself, and more especially of course if it had a rival in the local B.B.C., have to become increasingly "ghastly"— to borrow the expressive word used in an-other place by the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications. Besides, since the potential audience of Radio Caroline now

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has continuous "Pop" anyway on Radio 1, even though it may not be such good "Pop", or so popular, and could, if the B.B.C. modify their present scheme, have full regional programmes as well, I cannot see how the installation of local commercial stations would be in the national interest, even though it would obviously be in the interest of certain sections of our business community. I would not deny that. Naturally, if there were no local B.B.C. services at all a case could be made out for local commercial services. But there are now such services, even though, as I say, it might well be best, in our small country, to run them on, say, eight regional programmes.
There is a case—or so some of my own colleagues believe—for enabling the B.B.C. to derive a large additional revenue by accepting advertisements in certain emissions, such as Radio 1. I do not want to argue that case this afternoon, but I certainly think that it should be considered.
To sum up, my Lords, I would hope that, even at this late hour, the Corporation might not commit itself unequivocally to the present schedules. Even though it will inevitably introduce the new system on April 4, it might do so tentatively and subject to review—in the light, no doubt, of the eventual opinion of some Royal Commission, or perhaps (why not?) of a Select Committee. Could we not even on this vital question have a Joint Select Committee of the Commons and the Lords? I put that suggestion forward for discussion.
In particular, let the Corporation go slow on the proposed extension of local radio; and let it use some of the money saved to increase the quality of all forms of the existing national programmes, more particularly that of Radio 3. Could it not also think again, even if very slightly, about Radios 1 and 2? Is there any particular reason why some non-highbrow minority item of general women's institute interest, such as gardening or bee-keeping, should not sometimes be inserted into the continuous musical treacle of Radio 2? And might it not be possible even to imagine that an occasional word on the subject of drugs might be of some interest to the bemused mass audience of Radio 1? All this might cost a bit more and be more difficult to reconcile with a streamlined machine, but I have no
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doubt that it would help to avoid the Corporation's sinking into a rather uninspired mediocrity, which it will do if it only pursues business efficiency and cost effectiveness in accordance with the prescriptions of an American business efficiency firm.
It is not as if I thought there was now any real chance of, as it were, bringing back the noble Lord, Lord Reith (whom I am very glad, however, to see in his place), and trying to insert any moral purpose into the activities of the organisation; or even of bringing back Sir William Haley whose idea was that the Third Programme should be the leaven in the loaf, the influence of which would gradually permeate the whole. All that is gone with the wind. It now seems much more probable that the mass will simply eliminate the leaven. We live in a terrible age of mass emotions in which the individual is at a discount. Not even Mr. Malcolm Muggeridge, it would seem, can tame Demos by looking him squarely in the eye. Yet, granted that the B.B.C. no longer represents the conscience of the nation, I think it can represent, in a general way, the still small voice of reason and of decency. If this prevails, we may continue to have the best radio broadcasting in the world, but not otherwise. It depends on the leadership of the Corporation and on the Government. Both seems to me at the moment to be a little suspect. The one tends to be smug and accommodating, the other parsimonious.
But it may well be that we are wasting our time discussing the matter at all. Commenting on an indignant outburst in The Times of February 14 by no fewer than 134 programme planners and producers of the B.B.C., which summarised —if, as I think, a little too categorically and vehemently—the main objections to the new reforms that I have ventured to advance this afternoon, a "prominent figure"—as he was described—associated with the Corporation (can it possibly have been the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, himself?) said:
"There is no likelihood in the world of this having any effect, because, though the B.B.C. may go through the contortions of public agony, in fact the ineluctable progress of the bureaucratic machine is unstoppable."
My Lords, I leave it at that. If we are really in the hands of bureaucratic machines, rather than in the hands of

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intelligent even if sometimes misguided individual leaders, there is little hope for this nation, and there is certainly no hope for Parliament. We had all better go home and, like Candide, proceed to cultivate our gardens, in so far as the pollution of the earth and the atmosphere will allow us to do so. But this, my Lords, is a counsel of despair. I do not myself accept the dictum of the anonymous apparatchik of Broadcasting House. Some considerable fuss has already resulted in a modification of the present plans of the B.B.C. Some greater fuss may well modify them further. That is the thought I want to leave with your Lordships this afternoon, and I rather hope that you will find it moderately convincing. I beg to move for Papers.

ARMED FORCES' PAY
3.37 p.m.
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, with the permission of the House, I should like to repeat a Statement on the pay of the Armed Forces which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence. This is the Statement:
"The Government have received the National Board for Prices and Incomes Third Report on Forces Pay and have accepted the Board's recommendations.
"Last year the Board recommended the creation of a comprehensive salary structure which would not differentiate between single and married Servicemen. This 'military salary' would include compensation for the withdrawal of items which had previously been provided free in lieu of salary. It was also proposed that the Services should, because of the special conditions of their employment, receive an additional emolument. This was to be known as the X-factor. Payment of the military salary and the X-factor was deferred until new rates of pay could be determined in the light of a job evaluation exercise. This has now been completed.
"Job evaluation and the evaluation of the X-factor will increase pay by £75 million in a full year. This represents an increase of 15 per cent. over the present value of the Services' total real emoluments, that is to say, the
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pay and allowances which they receive in cash and the value of the food and accommodation which they receive in kind.
"It is important to recognise—as does the Board—that these recommendations involve some substantial changes in the relative positions of the Forces and civilian pay. Job evaluation has shown that, by comparison with the civilian sector, the Armed Forces have been underpaid. To bring up Forces' pay to levels comparable with civilian employment cannot, as the Board made plain, be a justification for pay increases elsewhere.
"The Defence budget cost of ending differentiation between single and married men's rates of pay is £52 million in a full year, after allowing for the recovery of charges for food and accommodation from single men. Single men will not only have to pay charges but also to pay for them out of income on which they will have paid £11 million in tax. Thus the real benefit to single men and cost to the Exchequer in fact amounts to £41 million rather than £52 million. The establishment of parity between single and married men will at last rectify an anomaly in the Forces pay structure which has no parallel in other occupations.
"A number of improvements in allowances will also be introduced. These cost about £5½ million in a full year. £75 million for job evaluation and the X-factor, £41 million to give single men parity with married men, and £5½ million for allowances, add up to a real increase in Service emoluments totalling £121½ million a year. The total cost to Defence Votes will be greater—£135½ million—because the increases will in fact be sufficient to compensate the Services for the £11 million in tax to which I have already referred, and also for a similar tax element in increases in rents recommended by the Board for married quarters and hirings—another £3 million.
"The Board in their report have suggested that, in the light of the size of the total increases, the Government should consider paying some of the larger ones by instalments, particularly the once-for-all increase required to

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bring the emoluments of single men up to married rates. We have accordingly agreed that, while the increases recommended for married men on the basis of job evaluation and the Board's assessment of the X-factor should be paid in full with effect from 1st April this year, the increases for single men and women will be paid in two instalments.
"With effect from 1st April this year single men and women, like married men, will get the full increases based on job evaluation and the X-factor. They will also get an increase sufficient to pay their food and accommodation charges after the payment of tax. Finally they will get a first instalment (on average about a quarter) of the total increase of £41 million to end differentiation between themselves and married men. The balance of this £41 million—about £31 million—for single men and women will be paid from 1st April, 1971.
"The detailed pay scales which will apply both to single and married personnel are in the Board's report. Tables of the adjustments for single men and women until 1st April, 1971, are also available in the Vote Office.
"I believe that the application of job evaluation and the radical revision of Service pay that the standing reference to the N.B.P.I. has made possible provide a basis for the military salary which can be supported with confidence on grounds both of efficiency and fairness."
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for repeating that Statement, and in particular and more personally I should like to thank him for the effort he made to pass a copy of it to me rather earlier than is usual, without which I should have had even more difficulty in coping with it. It is a very complicated Statement depending on fairly elaborate actuarial calculations. It would be un-gracious and erroneous to pretend that we could make any better assessment than the Government have made of how it is going to work out in practice; but it would seem that nobody can have any very clear or confident idea of how it will work out in practice for the individual Service men and women involved.
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Clearly, I think we ought to look at the changes in detail and see what the effect will be. However, we can welcome the fact that there is no longer any distinction in pay between married men and unmarried men. The single man, it seems to me, benefits quite considerably. I find it difficult to see that the married man benefits in any considerable way, but perhaps the noble Lord can correct me on that point.
Mr. Healey said on June 16:
"The new proposals.… will represent a very substantial increase in pay for the Services above what they could have expected if the Grigg formula had been maintained." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 16/6/69; col. 42.]
I should like to take that as read, but I have not been able to work it out as a calculation myself. After taxation and drawbacks of ration and accommodation payments, what net percentage increase does the Serviceman get, and how does this compare with increases claimed by civil servants, teachers and nurses? The Forces have always been two years behind their counterparts in industry. I wonder whether the noble Lord can tell me to what date the new rates of pay are related in industry?
Is the X-factor relevant to all Servicemen at a flat rate, or on a sliding scale? Clearly a fighter pilot is more vulnerable, for instance, to the element of danger than a mechanic maintaining the machine on the ground or the administrative staff at the airfield. This is what the United States Services call "hostile fire pay" and it is mentioned in the P.I.B. Report as being very difficult, if not impossible, to define in British terms. I am sure we should find it equally difficult, but I do not quite see why. I wonder whether the noble Lord could tell us.
Are the new pension rates for those now serving related in any way to the new pay scales, on the same percentages as the old Grigg formula? The question which runs through my mind at the moment, on reading this Statement and the documents attached, is how much of the new Service pay is related to the X-factor as opposed to basic salary; because it appears to me that the basic salary has been left the same. The X-factor has been taken into account to meet what the noble Lord describes as the underpaying until now of the Services, but in fact it brings them back to

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what their basic pay would have been but for this.
LORD SHACKLBTON: My Lords, I wonder whether I might interrupt the noble Lord. The House is always in great difficulty on these occasions because the Government are talking about something which they know about and nobody else knows about. In this case the noble Lord shares some information with the Government but the rest of the House does not. If I may say so with the greatest respect—because I know he is deeply interested in these things—were I not myself aware of what the noble Lord is talking about, because I have read the papers, I should not know whether he was talking double-Dutch or something else. That is no reflection on him. This is a genuine difficulty. With great respect, I feel that these very technical questions could perhaps best be dealt with on another occasion.
LORD ST. OSWALD: My Lords, I was about to bring these remarks to an end. I was not expecting the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, to answer all these questions across the Floor, but I thought he would like them to be on record so as to be able to answer them with more time to spare. I think they are important questions and I cannot say that I regret having put them today.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, I do not want to add to the confusion by participating in this private debate, but I would say that if the Statement is fair to the Armed Forces we support it.
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, as my noble Leader has pointed out, this is a very complicated subject. I should like to highlight one or two quick points. This is not, as someone said in the House on another occasion, an "Irishman's rise"; it is an "Englishman's rise." The Grigg formula would have given the Forces just over £30 million; the present formula, taking the staging into account, gives them £121 million. The job evaluation, plus the X-factor which applies right across the board, is giving the Armed Forces £75 million in a full year, which is an increase of 15 per cent. The X-factor represents 5 per cent. of a man's pay.
As regards the other points, my right honourable friend has specifically said
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in the Statement that the Armed Forces were in a special category. Job evaluation proved that their skill was significantly under-rewarded, and that has been put right in the present pay scale. There are doubtless other professions which are under-rewarded, but they do not in fact influence our decision on this matter. This stands on its own feet. As regards pensions, there will of course be a relationship of pensions in the future with this new pay scale. The sums are being worked on now, and I understand that my right honourable friend will be making a Statement on this subject in another place in the not too distant future—and it will of course be repeated here. I personally am satisfied that the Armed Forces are getting a very significant increase in their monetary remuneration as a result of this scheme.
VISCOUNT MONCKTON OF BRENCHLEY: My Lords, may I ask some reasonably simply questions? First, have the Government yet been able to make an arrangement whereby the extra tax paid by the Forces will come back to save the Defence Vote appearing to be over great? Secondly, there has been a feeling among the Forces that since the Prices and Incomes Board report on this there have been cuts made. Hearing the Minister today, I presume this is not so. A firm statement made by the Government would help all the Services. Perhaps we might also be told why the single man has been denied his increase now, and why it is to be paid in two instalments?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, the noble Viscount has made two points, the second of which I will answer first. It was simply that, due to a major reconstruction of Service pay, the actual burden on the Defence Budget would have been extremely heavy indeed. Job evaluation and the X-factor and some additional allowances have been paid in full. The young unmarried man or woman is getting one-quarter of the £41 million which is necessary to bring the unmarried up to the same level as the married. They are in fact getting the rest at April 1, 1971. They are now getting a very substantial increase in their take-home pay (if I may put it that way) even after all these sundry tax adjustments. This the noble Viscount will see when he gets his copies from the

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Printed Paper Office. I should like to send him the arithmetic of all this, to show where tax comes in in relation to the total. The noble Viscount perhaps noted one distinction between what the Forces received and the burden on the Defence budget. I will send the noble Viscount the arithmetic and I think he will find that it reflects a reasonably sympathetic decision.

ATTACKS ON CIVIL AIRCRAFT
3.53 p.m.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, it would probably be convenient if I were now to repeat a Statement made in another place by the President of the Board of Trade. It is as follows:
"The successive acts of violent interference with civil aviation—hijacking, attacks on aircraft on the ground and on ground facilities, and sabotage, in various parts of the world and from different motives, have deepened the gravity of this international problem. The nature of civil aviation makes these essentially international problems, which can only be tackled effectively by concerted international action. Her Majesty's Government have consistently supported and played their full role in such international action.
"The main centre for international action has been the International Civil Aviation Organisation. The United Kingdom was one of the first countries to ratify the Tokyo Convention on crimes in aircraft, and is seeking adherence to it by other States. The United Kingdom has played a full part in preparing the proposed new draft international convention against hijacking, which it is hoped will be put to a full diplomatic conference this year. The United Kingdom supported and has been active in the work of the Committee of ICAO specially set up on unlawful interference with international civil aviation and its facilities.
"The Swiss Government yesterday asked ICAO to call a conference on the issue of safety, and the United Kingdom member of the ICAO Council has been instructed to give full support to this Swiss proposal, so as to get an
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urgent meeting of Governments in the most useful form. An emergency meeting of European civil aviation administrations has also been arranged, to begin on March 3, in which the United Kingdom will take part at senior level.
"In this country all practical measures are being taken by the British airlines and airport authorities, in close liaison with the police and other Government services concerned, to extend and tighten security safeguards applied to aircraft, passengers, baggage and cargo. Nevertheless, with the volume of movement through the world's airports and on international airlines, there can be no absolute guarantee against violence.
"I explained to the House on Monday the temporary precautions which B.O.A.C. and B.E.A. had taken, affecting cargo traffic, while they took stock of the security situation. This was a matter of their primary responsibility for the safety of their passengers and aircrew. The airlines have vigorously pursued the improvement of security.
"In the case of B.E.A., they are not due to send another flight to Israel until Thursday. They are well advanced with their security measures, which are being discussed with the staff. They then hope to be open again to accept cargo and letters. B.O.A.C. have similarly reviewed and improved security arrangements. They have been discussing these with their staff, including air crew, concerned, and they then also hope to be open again to receive cargo. The interruption to flight handling services for aircraft of a number of foreign airlines at Heathrow by B.O.A.C. staff action has now, I understand, ended, and normal handling has been resumed."
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, I am sure the whole House is most grateful to the noble Lord for repeating that Statement on the recent attacks on civil aircraft. I am sure the House will also be glad to hear from Her Majesty's Government the steps they are taking to tackle, through international collaboration, the urgent and serious problem that these attacks present. In view of the great urgency of the problem, could not Her Majesty's Government have gone a little further today in this Statement

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than taking the matter to ICAO—perhaps to the United Nations? With all the recent history of hijacking, and now of the increasing attacks on civil aircraft, both in the air and on the ground, is it not time to call upon countries at the United Nations to outlaw immediately any such action carried out by a subject of that country. Such action is surely a matter that no country can but deplore.
On the question of the position of both B.O.A.C. and B.E.A., I am sure that Members of the House will note with some degree of comfort that every care and security is being taken both by the airlines and by the airport authorities. Can the noble Lord perhaps say today whether the 24-hour cargo embargo will continue to operate?
LORD BYERS: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for having repeated that Statement, and while recognising the grave difficulties in dealing with these matters, I would ask him whether he will bear in mind that the banning of flights to one country, Israel, could in fact precipitate further attacks? Would it not be possible to recommend to the International Conference of ICAO that they should agree that if there are any repetitions of attacks against Israel there will be an immediate ban on all flights to Arab countries; and, if necessary, vice versa?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, to answer the first question put by the noble Earl, I think he will agree that immediate action has to be taken by airlines, and that that is best taken through the international airlines organisation. To that extent, therefore, I am sure that he will agree with what has been done. As to the possibility of other political action— for example through the United Nations —I personally agree with him that there is a case for some kind of protocol, agreement or convention by which each country can solemnly outlaw individuals committing actions of this kind. This is the sort of point which I will endeavour to see is considered. The 24-hour delay is continuing for the time being. As for the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Byers, I would point out that it is not the fact that there has been an embargo on one country only. In any case, as I have stated, B.E.A. have not another
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flight to Israel until next Thursday, and discussions are taking place about that. The delay on cargo is one which is applied to all countries.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, I think perhaps the noble Lord may have misunderstood me. What I was suggesting was that there might be a recommendation by the International Conference that, in the event of any further attacks of this kind, there would be a ban on flights to all Arab countries. This, I think, would be most effective.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I was replying really to the other question put by the noble Lord, in which he couched in interrogatory form the point that it was unfair in this case to single out Israel. I was putting to him that in fact there has not been this discrimination against Israel only. As for the other point, I agree with him: it is an idea that ought to be pursued. There are, however, several snags about it—for example, in identifying the country from which these people come.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, as there has been criticism in some quarters of the actions of B.E.A. and B.O.A.C, and their unfortunate effect on Israel, will the Minister endorse that it is the absolute responsibility of the Corporations to ensure to the maximum degree the safety of their passengers, irrespective of the effects of any steps they take in the interests of that safety?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, one understands the feelings that have been expressed by Israel, but I agree, and Her Majesty's Government agree, with what the noble Lord has just said; namely, that there is an obligation upon the airlines concerned to take elementary precautions to safeguard both their passengers and their aircrews.
LORD WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, in view of what my noble friend has said, that there is no discrimination at all between cargo to Israel and to Arab countries, may I ask him whether this applies also to mail?
LORD BESWICK: Yes, my Lords: it applies also to mail.
THH EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, could the noble Lord say whether action is being taken to control the presence

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or entry into this country of persons known to be members of guerrilla bands of any kind?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, that is a fairly wide question, and I think I shall have to consider that.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, considering the difficulty that people with British passports have in getting in, surely the answer is that there must be.

BROADCASTING POLICY FOR SOUND RADIO
4.2 p.m.
Debate resumed.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, we now come back to the main subject of our debate this afternoon, the proposed reorganisation of the B.B.C. If I open what I have to say from this Despatch Box by supporting one aspect of the proposed reorganisation of sound programmes, perhaps I should qualify it in two ways: first, by making it clear that it is entirely a personal view, and, secondly, by saying that the remainder of my speech will be more critical of the policy of the B.B.C. and, consequently, of Her Majesty's Government.
Personally, unlike the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, I am in favour of the proposed streaming of various kinds of broadcasting in the four national programmes. I cannot agree that each programme should necessarily provide a balance between the various forms of speech and music. In the first place, however desirable it may be, it is a fallacy to assume that someone who has listened to a light comedy item on, say, Radio 4 will continue to listen when that item ends and is succeeded by a concert of classical music. His wireless set is provided with knobs, and if he does not like the ensuing programme he will switch over.
Secondly, with the present system of balanced programmes it seems to be virtually impossible to co-ordinate one with another. It is annoying to find two items which appeal to the same person overlapping on two different programmes. If that happens one is faced with the alternative of missing either the end of the one or the beginning of the other. It is even more annoying to find three broadly similar types of broadcast run-
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ning simultaneously on Radios 2, 3 and 4. If you like that sort of thing, you may want to listen to all three; and if you do not, you will not want to listen to any. In either case you will be dissatisfied.
If streaming, in the way Broadcasting in the 'Seventies suggests, adds to the convenience of the listener, it will also add to his enjoyment and to his education. But, and it is a big but, it must be done in such a way as not to lower the standard of broadcasting. The sound programmes of the B.B.C. have a very high reputation indeed. If the high standards are maintained; if minority interests are still catered for; if the threatened disbandment of the orchestras does not take place; if Radio 3 is not confined to V.H.F., and if broadly the same mix of broadcasting goes out, but is merely rearranged into streamed programmes for the convenience of listeners, the many apprehensions that have been expressed on all sides in recent months will be proved groundless. But will this happen? And, indeed, can it happen?
My Lords, we on this side of the House suspect that the real reason behind the reorganisation of sound radio is this. Her Majesty's Government dislike so much the Conservative Party's declared intention of bringing in local commercial broadcasting when they are returned to power that they are determined to press ahead at a reckless speed with local radio under the auspices of the B.B.C., and to use up as many as possible of the available frequencies, even if this is done at the expense of drastically lowering the standards of national programmes.
When he opened Radio Leicester on November 8, 1967, the then Postmaster General, Mr. Edward Short, said this:
"Clearly, it would be unfair to pay for the station out of income from the receiving licence. Otherwise people in rural areas would have to contribute towards a service they could never receive."
I agree with this completely. But in a release to the Press on November 25, 1969, the present Minister of Posts and Telecommunications said this:
"The service will, like the other operations of the B.B.C., be financed essentially from licence revenue. The net increase in licence revenue from April, 1971, will enable the B.B.C. to meet this and other commitments."
How can we reconcile these two conflicting statements It seems clear that the

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increase in the licence fee was made conditional on the B.B.C.'s agreeing to run the local stations.
The total deficit of the B.B.C. in 1967– 68 was £2½ million. In 1968–69 the deficit was over £4 million. Broadcasting in the 'Seventies predicts that in 1971 the running costs of local radio will be £5·2 million. The increase in the licence fee is estimated to bring in £5·6 million in 1971. That leaves £400,000 left over from the increased fee to cope with the vast deficit. Mr. Curran, the Director-General of the B.B.C, has said:
"The £7 million deficit we expect to have in 1971 is not going to be cleared up very fast."
At this rate, my Lords, it is no wonder.
This local radio, the expansion of which is threatening the future of national broadcasting, is to be heard only on V.H.F. Yet I understand that only one-third of the listening public have sets that are capable of receiving V.H.F. In November, 1967, Mr. Short explained that there were no medium wavelengths available. But on April 25, 1969, after being pressed about this in another place, Mr. Stonehouse seemed to hold out a glimmer of hope. He said:
"We are examining it to see how many of the stations can be put on medium wave as well as V.H.F."
Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, will be able to tell the House whether this examination has borne fruit.
My Lords, the B.B.C.'s policy on the future of national sound broadcasting seems to have been foisted on them, and to arise directly from Her Majesty's Government's policy on local broadcasting to such an extent that when we on these Benches ask questions on broadcasting in the future, we shall have to think twice before accepting the usual reply, that:
"It is not the policy of Her Majesty's Government to interfere with the day-to-day running of Corporations."
We realise that noble Lords opposite are fundamentally opposed to the principle of commercial radio. We understand it, although we do not agree with it. If they can finance local radio by some other means, all well and good. But what we cannot accept, and where we feel that they have got their priorities completely wrong, is that they should insist on going ahead with local radio at the expense of
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allowing a deterioration, however small, in the national programme.
4.9 p.m.
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES or HASTOE: My Lords, I think the whole House recognises the very real importance of this debate, perhaps going even beyond the Motion itself, and we are indeed grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, for this opportunity for discussion; discussion which, I am sure, will greatly assist the B.B.C. in assessing public opinion in general. I think the House probably has a particular interest in it. In such a radical House, all of us tend to identify ourselves with protesters, and I think this is partly what has happened with all of us. I should like to quote a very short piece from Sir Hugh Greene's last book, The Third Floor Front, in which he made the essential point that:
"In no other country in the world is there so much public interest in broadcasting, not only in what is broadcast but in those who work in broadcasting."
Certainly at the present moment in history this is undoubtedly true.
The House will know that my noble friend the Leader of the House will be replying to the debate. At this stage I think the most helpful thing I can do will be to remind the House of the Government's basic position. It is essentially a debate about programme content. I am sure that one of the most strongly held principles in all parts of the House is that the B.B.C. should be completely free from Government interference in the content of its broadcasts. I am sure that the B.B.C.'s exceptional standing abroad, and indeed at home, sterns from this. It is an unbreakable principle; it goes right back to the beginnings of broadcasting, and every Board of Governors of the B.B.C. has always known that theirs was the responsibility for the programming and content of the broadcasts.
The Government do not, and should not, intervene in day-to-day affairs of the Corporation, but of course the B.B.C. is answerable to the public and to Parliament. I must tell the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, that the B.B.C. is not driven by its political masters, as he put it. The Government would come in only if changes in the fundamental pattern of programme policy were such as to undermine public confidence in the B.B.C.'s

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ability to fulfil its obligations under the Charter. I do not think that that position has been arrived at in what we are discussing this afternoon, and I am sure that the House will not expect Ministers to make pronouncements on the details of the programming points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, and probably by other noble Lords. We all have a favourite bit that we should like to have extended, and have lots of bits that we should like to have suppressed, but that has nothing to do with the Government's duty about the actual programming. Nevertheless, the Government are deeply concerned at the sad and distressing differences of view which have come to our notice recently, and which, indeed, have been apparent for some time.
Secondly, the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, referred to our famous and complicated Addison Rules. I think my noble friend Lord Addison may sometimes wish that his father had not fathered at least these Rules. Although we are very glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, in his place, we know that we cannot expect to hear from him. In spite of his obviously intimate knowledge of the present situation, if he were to answer for the Corporation's affairs in Parliament it might well impinge on the B.B.C.'s freedom from Parliament and Governmental intervention. There are, of course, many views about the Addison Rules, but I am quite sure that the B.B.C.'s position is specially vulnerable to precisely this situation.
Of course, responsibility for replying to the debate must rest on Ministers. Today's debate will straddle the several responsibilities of the Government and the B.B.C., and the presence of the noble Lord, Lord Hill, will, I know, ensure that the B.B.C. will take very careful note of the debate.
Noble Lords will remember that there have been three debates on this subject in Parliament in the last year—two of them in another place—and I am sure they will recognise that the debate on July 22, the first after Broadcasting in the 'Seventies had been published, had a quite profound effect on the subsequent plans of the B.B.C. Many noble Lords will also have read the pronouncements of the Campaign for Better Broadcasting, to which the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn,
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referred—noble Lords may have been to some of the meetings—and all will, of course, have followed the rather remarkable correspondence in The Times and other newspapers. The crux of the matter is that, in spite of the obvious and, indeed, greatly welcome advances in television, there is scarcely a household in the country without at least one radio. I was delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, was such a fan of radio, though I am deeply sorry about his views on "Pop". As we are speaking in a rather rarified atmosphere this afternoon, perhaps I should say, when we are considering the pleasures of the young, eheu fugaces.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, does the noble Baroness say that all modern youth are devoted to "Pop"?
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: Certainly I think most of them are, my Lords, and I do not at all share the noble Lord's view. I think it is an excellent form of music. We do not always get the best kind of "Pop", but there is extremely good "Pop". It is very important to have something to whistle, anyway. It is also very important to remember that sound radio is very effective and its impact on the country is considerable. The B.B.C.'s plans were intended to make sound radio of maximum availability, in the light of their researches into the new habits of the listening public. I shall return to this point in a moment, if I may, but first I should like to recapitulate a little the B.B.C.'s description of what the time-table has been in their consultations with the public and the unions, to which the noble Lord referred.
The Corporation first set up a working group within the B.B.C. two years ago. Broadcasting in the 'Seventies was published in July last year, immediately after the proposals had been approved in principle by the Board of Governors. I am afraid that by then some unions were complaining that they were not being sufficiently consulted, or that the consultation was pretty useless because they were told about things only in secrecy. The B.B.C.'s view, on the other hand, was that there were difficulties in allowing the plans to be given to the broad membership of the unions before they were released publicly. So nothing in the way of actual negotiations could

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begin until they had published their plans. I noted very carefully what the noble Lord said about that, and I think other people may hold his view.
But the B.B.C. felt that, since the committee which had been set up was a purely advisory body, theirs was not an unreasonable view to take. It took no executive decisions and none could be taken until the proposals had been approved in principle by the Board of Governors. Once they approved them, the B.B.C. decided that it was essential to put them not only to the unions, but also to the advisory committees and to the public, because it was an essential part of its procedure to test the reactions of the public as well as of the staff concerned to the structural proposals before decisions were taken.
The important point to remember is that the programme is for implementation in April this year, so that decisions had to be taken on the structure itself before the programme planning could begin. As noble Lords will know, it takes a considerable time to organise those extremely complicated programmes and the dove-tailing of the timetables of the B.B.C. Many of the options remained open in the B.B.C. until December, and it was then that the Director General made his statement that, although there was further scope for discussing the content of the programmes within the structure, the time had ended for debating the structure itself. Of course, the Government had been looking at the proposals all this time, and especially those which concerned the restriction of Radio 3 to V.H.F., the future of the orchestras and the continuation of local radio. And, as the House knows, my right honourable friend the Minister of Posts and Tele-communications dissented from the first two of these proposals and the B.B.C. abandoned them.
The noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, expressed special anxieties about the plans for changing the Third Programme, and many noble Lords have obviously been thinking very deeply about this aspect. As Lord Gladwyn said, the B.B.C.'s record in this field is perhaps the envy of the world. It is all the more important, therefore, that there should be no lowering of the general standards at any time. That is our firm view; and it is in this context, I am sure, that the
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House desires to consider why the B.B.C. feels that changes are necessary. Their answer is the fundamental change which has happened in the place of sound radio in society in the last few years. I think we might consider that a little further.
The Third Programme was introduced at the end of 1946, when there were still over 11 million households which had sound radio licences. The number of people having sound-only licences has now dropped to 1½ million, while combined television and sound radio licences have grown in number to over 15 million. This is a very different situation. Nevertheless, sound radio is very important— indeed, it is a growing feature in our daily lives. Over half the population listen to sound radio at some time each day, but the B.B.C.'s view is that the attitude of these listeners has undergone a fundamental change since it became a national habit to watch television. The B.B.C. thinks that we use sound radio in a different way: we listen to it because there is a particular programme that we want to hear, or we turn it on to keep us company when we are pursuing some activity, or perhaps pursuing none, and often when we are in solitude. In other words, it is no longer a family entertainment as it was formerly.
In any case, the B.B.C. follows up that view by being quite certain that, with the change of purpose of listening, there is also a change of behaviour by the listening public. The Corporation says— and I find this fascinating—that listeners are no longer prepared to switch on to a programme and to stay with it no matter what comes out, if indeed it changes from subject to subject. People then often switch off. The Corporation feels, therefore, that one of the merits which used to be claimed—that the listener might absorb some kind of knowledge, or widen his horizons, as it were by stealth—no longer applies; or, at any rate not to the same extent as it did.
Here, my Lords, I think is the point at which the lines of philosophy (if I may call them such) and approach within the B.B.C. begin to diverge. The B.B.C. considers that the best way of serving these new listening habits is by clarifying and labelling the nature of each network, thus making it easier for listeners to find the kind of programme they want.

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That is their case, which the House will agree was very ably argued by the letter of the Director General in The Times last Monday; and, from what he said, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Denham, will agree with this particular kind of labelling. Nevertheless, the House will also wish to consider the, in my view, disastrous misunderstandings from which this unhappy situation grew.
About five months ago, before the B.B.C.'s proposals were published, a Question was tabled in another place about Radio 3 and the regions, and various rumours and leaks were printed from that time onwards which were taken up strongly, and rightly so, by the public. It was rumoured that Radio 3, the Music Programme, and the Third were to be reduced or abolished, that Radio 4 was to be curtailed, and that music overall was to be curtailed, too. The B.B.C. maintained throughout all this time that all these rumours were totally without foundation. As the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, said, there were more accurate leaks that the orchestras and the regional programmes were to be abolished, and that drama was to be reduced; and it was later understood that local radio was to be implemented, at the expense, as some people said, of the networks. Then there was the article in the Sunday Times which actually stated that Radio 3 was to be abolished. The result, I am glad to say, was 10,000 letters to the B.B.C. in one week; and although this was an inaccurate piece of information the reaction shows how great public concern is.
The broad structure of these proposals was published in July, and at this point the programme schedules were not developed, until the B.B.C. could gauge public feeling. Of course, most of the criticism directed against the B.B.C. was then concerned with the orchestras and with the proposal to put Radio 3 on V.H.F., both of which, as the House knows, the B.B.C. undertook to abandon —and I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, for some praise at least for that. Then the next phase began in about August, with the setting up of the Campaign for Better Broadcasting. My Lords, it has been, as I said before, a distressing but an exciting time. The Government and the B.B.C. respect
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the deep professional concern for standards which prompted the producers to take the extreme step of making their anxieties public in The Times. The producers are of course significantly among those upon whom the B.B.C. relies to put its plans into effect. They and others are responsible for carrying out the B.B.C.'s concern for the maintenance of its high standards in their programmes, which is what all of us in this House, I think, wish for.
May I turn just for a moment to finance, a subject raised by the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn? I think that, broadly, the answer here is that we should all wish for the causes in which we most believe to have more money but that the Government have to consider how much money is available. As well as having a duty to the B.B.C. the Government have a duty to the licence holders, to see that they do not pay too much. Nevertheless, I would point out that last summer the Government announced that the television licence fee would be raised from £6 to £6 10s. and that the sound only licence fee of 25s. would be abolished from April of next year; and, as the noble Lord, Lord Denham, said, this will produce an increase of £5½ million in a year.
I think the House will consider that a deficit of £7 million, which the noble Lord, Lord Denham, mentioned, is really marginal when related to a total income of £525 million. It represents the difference between the amount the B.B.C. would like to have and the amount which the Government feel they can afford. I should like to point out that the present Government have paid very much more attention to the raising of the licensing fees than the previous Administration did in all the 13 years they were in office. We have in fact authorised three increases since we have been the Government and the Opposition authorised only two, during a much longer period. Of course there is not enough money for broadcasting: there is never enough money for anything. But in the circumstances I do not think the B.B.C. would feel that the Government have been at all lax in their consideration of this very difficult situation.
To return to what I think are the main anxieties of the House, the Report, Broadcasting in the 'Seventies, marked a

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break from the traditional pattern of broadcasting over many years. The B.B.C. believes that the new pattern in no way inhibits the same level of achievement from its staff in the future. The Corporation's arguments are closely reasoned, and they are backed by statistics and professional advice. Why then has a large, senior and undeniably devoted group of the B.B.C. staff questioned them so passionately? Is it because of the way in which they have been publicised? Is it because of the way the decisions have been reached? Or is it because of the decisions themselves?
A Noble Lord: The decisions themselves.
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, I think there are various views on that. Members of Parliament have voiced deeply felt protests. Actors, producers, authors, musicians, learned dons, we all know, have written to the Press about how deeply they feel on this matter. Here lies the basic sadness of this whole situation. As I see it, neither side appears to have made itself really clear to the other. The pro-testers are, I think, perhaps worried more for the future even than for the present. We know the urgency of the case made against what they genuinely believe to be the abolition of the Third Programme, at any rate in spirit. We know their passionate objections to the reduction in time of the old Third Programme's contribution, even though some of the speech and drama will be put over on Radio 4. Also the complaint persists of lack of consultation and lack of publicity. Their view is that they are fighting for imaginative radio, not merely on the old Third but in all broadcasting—better quality in "Pop", jazz, drama, everywhere. They maintain that the Third Programme is not a centre of exclusiveness or elitism but an essential and necessarily partly experimental base from which all programmes could eventually benefit. Above all, they maintain that they are not an old stuffy lot of resisters to change but consider themselves young, bold and adventurous.
There, not in a nutshell but at some length, is the position as we have seen it develop. I have given quite clearly the B.B.C. view and we have seen what the protesters have said. I cannot deal with all the anxieties in detail; but I
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think the tragic thing is that all the protagonists are dedicated to the highest ideals of the B.B.C. They have all looked at their problems in a professional and realistic way. Those in the B.B.C. who made the recommendations have based their judgments on experience, knowledge and research; and the responsibility for taking the decisions lies, as I have said, with them. But, of course, among any body of intelligent people there will be disagreements. Nevertheless, the idea of a fundamental split between the policy-makers and the producers must in the end be artificial. They work in the same medium with, in every case, the success of the enterprise as their ultimate aim.
My Lords, may I turn for a moment to the local radio point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Denham. Local radio —and the noble Lord asked me about this—will have both V.H.F. and medium wave. I think this is very necessary and right, and I sympathise with his worries in case it was not so. But the point about local radio having been set up at the expense of the other networks really cannot be maintained. The Government increased the licensing fees; the B.B.C. decided after an extremely successful experiment with the first eight local stations that there was a very real local demand for them and for their expansion. We cannot question the evidence; there is no doubt that this is so. Many of the existing stations have been really successful and I think it is in the interest of local communities that they should be developed. The regional talent to which the noble Lord referred will certainly not be lost; I can assure him of that. There is also the point about the Maud Commission. This is extremely complicated —everything about the Maud Commission is complicated, in my view—but cultural communities are not necessarily the same as administrative committees. I think one would have to rule out any question of exactly matching local radio areas to the Maud areas. But the principle, which is really that of a conurbation centre for the community and its catchment area, is common to both.
My Lords, to sum the matter up: have the B.B.C. got it right or wrong? I have explained in some detail how they see their case. Of course, they believe they have got it right. The House will know that they must take note of other views

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and that those views in a sense must be largely speculative. In the end it will be for the public to make a judgment in the light of their appraisal of the new structure and of whether the B.B.C.'s performance matches what their stated intentions were.
I hope that I may reassure the House by saying that the B.B.C. are anxious for Ministers to emphasise that the Corporation will be flexible in their response to public reaction. They want to make it absolutely clear how ready they are to change their approach in the light of public reaction to the first few months of the plan. April, which is the implementation month, is almost upon us and I think the House will understand that since the programmes under the new structure are already set up they must be started then, otherwise programming would be in chaos. I want to emphasise again that the B.B.C. will be responsive to the reactions to their proposals. I am sure—at any rate I hope—that that will be very reassuring to the House and I am very happy to be able to make that clear.
4.37 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF MANCHESTER: My Lords, I am sure that we must all be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, for introducing this subject and for the way in which he has done so, and to the noble Baroness for the irenic explanatory speech that she has given us. I think that all who have spoken have agreed that this debate is really about the maintenance of quality, intellectual and artistic, within the radio services. For some years I sat as a member of the B.B.C. Advisory Council. I remember that there was facing me a large plaque. On that plaque was a motto. That motto was "Qualecumque", which, being translated, means "Whatsoever". It refers, of course, to St. Paul's statement:
"…whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, … just, … pure, … lovely and … of good report"
—all that is admirable, all that is excellent—
"think on these things".
I would guess that that plaque was put there during Lord Reith's regime. Certainly during the time he was at the
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B.B.C. it was nobly adhered to. It is not so evident—
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, I ought perhaps at this stage to point out that Lord Reith was not in favour of the Third Programme. It is not because Lord Reith has gone that there has been any slackening of the Third Programme. He did not approve of the principle of the Third Programme.
THE LORD BISHOP OF MANCHESTER: My Lords, I was not suggesting that Lord Reith would approve; I was simply suggesting that standards since he left the B.B.C, and particularly in recent years, have tended to decline. It may be said that the permissive society which so many deplore is partly due to declining standards in the Press, television and in other directions. Of recent years the tendency has been to act on the motto, "Give the people what they want. "That was the battle cry of the commercial television lobby, and indeed it was the policy of the Tory Government of the day. Within limits, undoubtedly it is right. No one wants to give or stuff Mr. Binks with esoteric music, astronomy and the higher mathematics. Nevertheless, the B.B.C. has, as we all recognise, an educational and informative function. That is written into its title deeds. "Give the people what they want"—no great artist has ever acted on that dictum. You may remember that Words-worth said that a great poet can only be read in the taste which he himself creates, and that is true of all great artists, whether it be in poetry, or in music, or in the visual arts. Milton said:
"Truth, like a bastard, comes into the world."
No doubt at a later date that bastard is legitimised, but sometimes it takes a long time for that to happen.
My Lords, I am sure we should all agree that quality, creativeness, vision— call it what you will—must be maintained, even though the cost be very high indeed in terms of actual finance. But how does this question of equality impinge upon the present unhappy situation? At this point it seems to me that we enter a territory where no light, but rather darkness, is visible. Indeed, heat is more apparent than light. In Sir Hugh Greene's drawing-room phrase, the staff

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seem to be accusing the governors of being "a lot of bloody fools". Such language is indicative of a rising temperature. Over the years the Third Programme has established a tradition, and a very fine tradition, too. It has drawn loyalties to it and it has been well supported by artists and producers. It has become an entity in its own right. The contributors have breathed into it the breath of life, and it has become in part a living soul. Or, to change the metaphor, it is regarded by many as being holy ground, and Mr. Curran, instead of taking off his shoes, has stumped around in hobnail boots—so his accusers say.
'Humpty-Dumpty sat an a wall;
Humpty-Dumpty had a great fall.
All the King's horses and all the King's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again."
That is really what is feared; that once the Third Programme is split up and divided it is done for. Divide and conquer—and the bureaucrats conquer. These, I think, are the thoughts at the back of the minds of those who oppose the new plan.
The Director-General tells us, with the greatest emphasis at his command, that this is not so. The Third Programme, it is true, will die in title, but it will live, it will achieve a glorious resurrection, in other programmes. In support of this belief I understand that the Controller of Radio 3 is to be the man who is at present controlling the Third Programme. Despite all this, the staff, or many of them, believe that these new proposals are an attempt to jeopardise the quality of the Third Programme. Though I have been on the B.B.C. General Advisory Council I have never fully understood the processes by which programmes come into being. What obstacles, financial and artistic, have they to meet? And where, and to what extent, do financial and administrative considerations impinge on the actual production of programmes? I would guess that this entity, the Third Programme, had a certain autonomy and that it is thought that this automony is in danger. It is really, in effect, the psychological background of the take-over bid.
We are assured that there have been consultations. Some say they have been adequate, others say they have not. Par-
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ticipation is the popular notion of the day, but if you wait to consult everyone there is no participation because no action is taken. And here, surely, the Director-General is right. The time comes for action and for decision, and this must be taken by those who are ultimately responsible. For democratic control does not lie with the staff of the B.B.C.; democratic control means Parliamentary control. The present dispute points to a crisis of confidence among the staff, and this is regrettable. I hope that in time it will be resolved. I cannot see that the new proposals are inherently destructive of what the Third Programme stood for. I hope that the new schedules may be regarded as a controlled experiment, and reviewed, as the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, suggested, at some later date, either by a joint committee or by a Royal Commission. The fact is that the ingredients of the cake seem good, and we can only wait until we have sampled it before we give our final judgment.
4.46 p.m.
LORD ARDWICK: My Lords, I feel that I am obliged to ask you for even more then the usual ration of indulgence that you give to a trembling maiden speaker. In the brief interval of the Christmas Recess I was translated from the Press Galleries of this Parliament to the arena here below, and so, after a life-time of being on the outside looking in, I now find myself on the inside looking out. I can assure your Lordships that it is a bizarre and somewhat unnerving experience. It is made even worse by embarrassing recollections of the times when I have written rather flippant criticisms of the rhetoric of eminent Members of this House, usually when they were in another place. As the Frenchman said, criticism is easy and art is hard. So today, my Lords, I feel rather as my old colleague Sir Neville Cardus might feel if he suddenly found himself, as a commentator on cricket, at the wicket at Lords. Or, even worse, since the best batsman can be. bowled first ball, if, as a music critic, he found himself at the piano at the Wigmore Hall. Yet, my Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord who introduced this debate; first because it is a timely debate, and secondly, because it gives me an early and possibly rare opportunity of talking out of experience as a

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journalist and a freelance broadcaster. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, will understand that I cannot go with him all the way today, but I remain his faithful disciple in all European affairs.
I begin, my Lords, with a strong belief in the governors and the managers of the B.B.C., who for half a century have kept faith with the concept of public service in broadcasting. Moreover they have made, With great skill, the gigantic adjustments needed to meet the needs and desires of a society which is changing with almost frightening rapidity. Nothing that I have read, none of the schedules that I have seen, has convinced me that they have forsaken that role and suddenly become Philistines. The first question we have to ask is: why is the B.B.C. making this change in the style of its radio programmes? We are told that the new style permits economies and satisfies more exactly the needs of listeners, and I can well believe that. I can readily believe that the old style of a mixed programme at various levels was entirely appropriate at the time when the family gathered nightly round the radio set; but it is no longer appropriate now when the family is gathered round the television set.
The B.B.C.'s most effective market research for the new style was, of course, done by the pirate Radio Caroline and Radio 390. It showed that in fact there was this insatiable appetite for "Pop" among the young and a constant appetite among housewives for "sweet "music. But the new style, I suspect, has, by accident or design, an important third purpose, too. It enables the B.B.C. to compete with whatever may come along. Sooner or later there will be local commercial radio in this country. By its nature, it must aim at the transistorised, free-spending young and the housewife, who are the categories most interesting to advertisers. But the B.B.C. local radio alone will not be an effective answer to this. B.B.C. local radio must cater for local minorities if it is to serve any purpose.
No, the B.B.C.'s main answer to local commercial radio must be Radio 1, with its non-stop "Pop" appealing to youth, and Radio 2, with its unending stream of melody. People are always asking, as the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn,
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asked this afternoon, "Why should the B.B.C. cater for a public which might find enough satisfaction in commercial radio? Why should not the B.B.C. just pursue the noble, the good and the beautiful? "The answer is simple. If ever the B.B.C. lost the majority of listeners, how long would those people be willing to pay for an unused service? Yet it is through the licence system that the B.B.C. enjoys its independence of advertisers and of the Government and is able to give us about the best service in the world. But the B.B.C.'s freedom to broadcast to minorities depends on its ability to cater for everyone else, too. These are the facts of broadcasting life which every idealist has to grasp.
But it is not the changes in Radios 1 and 2 which cause conflict, but those in Radio 3 and Radio 4. I sympathise with the producers and applaud their courage in breaking the rather stuffy rule which would prohibit them even engaging collectively in public discussion about the future of their medium. It is right that there should be a broad debate on the subject and that they should take part in it. I understand their suspicions. Radio producers are not unlike creative journalists; they are very sensitive people. No matter how light the guiding or restraining hand that is laid upon journalists and producers by management, they feel crushed. Every major reorganisation seems to threaten a betrayal, a humiliation and perhaps even redundancy. I know this from my own traumatic experiences as a writer. But I have also been an editor, and as such I have been the author of many such atrocities. I know how difficult it is to get creative people to see the whole administrative picture of the organisation for which they work and not just the part that concerns them. There is always this kind of breakdown in communications, and we must expect this kind of breakdown to happen.
I am sorry that the Third Programme has to go—not so much, however, for what it has been, but for what it might have been. Over the years it has given us much that remains a treasured memory, but I feel that it has never fully used the opportunities and freedom that William Haley gave to it. The intelligent and cultured minority in this, as in other countries, is small enough. The Third Programme, not always, but too often, has divided that minority instead of

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uniting it. The Third Programme has tended to cater for minorities of that minority; philosophy for philosophers; science for scientists. Too many broadcasts have been conceived, not as the spoken word, but as articles couched in closely woven prose, to be digested at leisure in the columns of the Listener. And in the arts, the test has too often been not simple excellence, but rarity and novelty. Under the new system, the rare and the novel in music should gain by being placed in the context of works of traditional excellence in classical music; and I see, for the highbrows among us, that the new schedules take care that the harpischord has not been silenced and that Stockhausen rides again!
The small reduction in the spoken word, so we are promised, will be made up qualitatively and quantitatively on Radio 4. But will it? It is here that I become sceptical, not of the honest intentions of the Governors of the B.B.C. but of the possibility of carrying out such a broadranging programme. Can a programme which includes "The Navy Lark "at one end, all those news commentaries and all the usual talks on the Home Service, tolerate Third Programme talks, too? I am quite sure that we shall get from Radio 4 highly intelligent, informative and serious programmes in words. But the characteristic of the Third Programme at its best was something beyond this; it dealt also in ideas. I am sure that Radio 3 would pass the test we impose upon it; I am less sure about Radio 4. But I do not think that we can pass judgment today. We must all wait and see.
In conclusion, I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, raised the point about the European Service in English of the B.B.C. I do not think that he differentiated. It seems that the foreign language services of the European Service continue as before and it is the service in English which has been merged with the World Service. It catered formerly for an educated minority of Europeans, for whom English is a learned language, and I believe that the interests of those people are substantially different, say, from those listeners in the British Commonwealth for whom the World Service is designed. I must confess that I speak with some personal interest in this, since I, like other noble Lords in the Chamber,
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have been a contributor to this service for some years. But I understand that a review of the results of the reorganisation is now taking place, and although it is impossible;, of course, to return to the old system, perhaps some way can be found within the new framework of restoring a more positive identity to the European Service in English, perhaps under an editor who knows what this special European audience needs and how to get it for them. It certainly seems odd to European Anglophiles that at this moment when we are trying to join the European Community we should have ceased providing specifically for the opinion-forming minority in Europe.
My Lord?, I thank you for your patience. I hope that I have taken a middle position between two sets of good people at loggerheads with one another, even at the risk of perhaps incurring the animosity of both sides. My feeling is that we cannot judge on schedules alone. We must make up our minds on the actual programmes as broadcast and only then distribute our praise or blame.
4.58 p.m.
LORD O'NEILL OF THE MAINE: My Lords, I count it a real privilege to be able to be the first in this noble House to congratulate my old friend Lord Ardwick on his excellent maiden speech. He has kindly reminded me since I have come here that he has been with me on several lists of speakers during the last seven years of my existence, and I am honoured to be on the list with him when he has made his first speech in this noble House. We all look forward to many more well-informed contributions from this new, able Lord.
My theme to-day will be largely one of finance. I realise that it will not please many people but it is put forward to deal with the great problem that exists to-day. The basic problem for the B.B.C, as for almost any organisation, is to find sufficient income to balance expenditure. The B.B.C.'s licence fee revenue must by its very nature remain largely static, while its expenditure in constant conditions of inflation must rise year by year. Let us then, by way of a start, ask ourselves whether it might be possible to raise the licence fee annually. I know that the noble Baroness has explained that it has

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been raised three times in five and a half years, but I fear that this may not be enough. Even so, I think that the answer to the question I have posed must be in the negative—and for two reasons. First, the licence fee is already very high. It is true that the licence for sound radio alone is going to disappear, but we must also remember that a colour television licence will soon cost £11 10s. a year. Secondly, no Government are going to relish being responsible for increasing the licence fees unless they are absolutely forced to take this action.
Before the advent of I.T.V. there is no doubt that the Reithian image of the B.B.C. was still the order of the day. But as soon as competition appeared things rapidly changed. With the arrival of "That Was the Week That Was ""Auntie "B.B.C. finally flew out of the window. Since then it would be hard to argue that the programme content of the B.B.C. is all that different from that of the commercial channel.
That brings me to my next point. If the Reithian basis of the B.B.C. has to a large extent vanished, can the method of collecting revenue alone remain un-changed? To all intents and purposes, Radio 1 is virtually non-stop "Pop". Is it really to be suggested, then, that this programme would be defiled if it were to have carefully controlled advertisements, perhaps selected by an advisory panel? Radio 1 can take us for a "Night Ride", but apparently it would be wicked if we were told to use a particular brand of soap. All sorts of changes loom on the horizon. The houses and flats of the future will through one tube receive electricity, telephone, television and radio. It will then be possible to meter television and radio and to make an appropriate quarterly charge. I realise that this will be a valuable contribution to dealing with licence evasion. But all this lies in the distant future. In the meantime, serious consideration should be given to raising revenue without raising licence fees.
If I may here digress for a moment, I would point out that in the meantime the television levy on the commercial channel is at least hurting the smaller stations. Ulster Television, which has done an ex-
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cellent job, is being practically strangled at birth, and has now had to abandon its imaginative programme of improvement and expansion; and, in addition, we see this morning that Scottish Television is also in trouble, despite its recent licence to print money. In 1976 both the B.B.C. Charter and the Television Act run out. This may be a golden opportunity to have a new look at the whole problem of broadcasting and television.
If C.B.C. in Canada, originally based on the B.B.C, has now had advertisements on its sound programmes for very many years, why is it wicked for us to follow suit? Indeed, we might even consider carefully controlled and widely spaced advertisements during our "Pop "television shows. There is however one Commonwealth form of revenue that I should not favour and that is a Government grant, even if, as in Canada, it is called a Parliamentary grant. Already we have the situation here where the Government of the day always feel that the B.B.C. are hostile. The imagination boggles at what the position might be if the Corporation were to depend directly on the Government for much of its financial support. May I break off here, since I see that the noble Lord the Leader of the House has come in, to say that I very much regret that, owing to a long standing previous engagement, I shall not be able to be here to hear his words of wisdom later tonight. However, I shall look forward to reading them in Hansard.
My Lords, in case my remarks should be thought merely critical, let me say that we have an excellent regional station in Belfast. When in the Midlands one hears first a news item from Norfolk, and then one from Hereford, one realises how fortunate one is to belong to a small region where every area is known to every other. Owing partly to licence evasion, the Northern Ireland B.B.C. is subsidised from the centre to the tune of some £800,000 a year, because, to use an old phrase, "beggars cannot be choosers". However, as one who has done television in practically every North American city. I know of both the comfort of good air conditioning and the misery of over-heated conditions in the Belfast studio. Having raised this point at least twice with Sir Hugh Greene, I now have much pleasure in raising it once again in the possible hope that the noble Lord, Lord

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Hill, will also be informed of the situation. Looking back, indeed, on my "Ulster at the Crossroads" broadcasts, which produced 130,000 television replies and jammed the B.B.C. telephone exchange, I wonder that I survived my 20 tropical minutes.
I think it only right this afternoon to end on a note of thanks. By and large, the B.B.C. has done a wonderful job. Over the years, people have been led to musical, dramatic and literary appreciation which could have come to them in no other way. All I want to ensure is that the B.B.C.'s revenue should not be frozen while its costs rise. If anyone can produce some other ingenious way of providing the Corporation with more money, then let us examine that as well. But we cannot, as I see it, expect the Corporation to keep pace with the 'seventies and the demands which they will bring if we are not prepared to provide it with the wherewithal essential to satisfy our constantly rising hopes and expectations.
5.10 p.m.
BARONESS STOCKS: My Lords, I do not intend to intervene in this debate for the purpose of stressing the possible decline of broadcasting standards in connection with Broadcasting in the 'Seventies. It may involve a decline of standards, but I hope not. I want to examine the causes for the general belief that it may involve a decline of standards. Some two or three years ago the B.B.C. made a considerable breach with what one might call the "Reith tradition" by the appointment of the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, as Chairman. To some of us, perhaps to the noble Lord, Lord Reith, and certainly to me, that appeared to be calling in a chairman from what we regarded as an opposition "gang". It was a considerable breach with the Reith tradition and involved a quite considerable reorientation of the relationship between the Chairman, the Governors and the Director-General, which was an essential part of the Reith tradition which had endured through the offices of various Directors-General and various Chairmen. It was a big change.
Almost at the same time—or very soon afterwards—the B.B.C. advertises Broadcasting in the 'Seventies, a completely new look at its programme policy. The fact that those two events have come to us
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within a very short space of time, in fact almost simultaneously, naturally would suggest to many people—and has indeed suggested to many people—that a second change also involves a change in the traditional standards of public service broadcasting by the noble Lord, Lord Reith. It seems to me that that represents a bad practice in the public relations of the B.B.C. It sounds rather insulting of me to accuse the B.B.C. of insufficient attention to public relations because, after all, those who govern its policy and programmes have their finger continuously on the figures of listener research and presumably they know what they are doing. If they know a lot about the ethos and composition of the radio listening public, so too, my Lords, do I, because for about twenty years I have been an addicted radio listener, and a very frequent radio broadcaster. I think that in the course of those years I have been on almost ever}' form of talks programme from "Lift up your Hearts"to "Petticoat Line". In the course of that experience one learns a great deal about the listeners; about what they like, what they do not like and about their habits.
The radio listening public is—as the Provost of King's pointed out in a letter to The Times this morning—exceedingly conservative. I use that word with a small "c". Any change in the titles and times of programmes causes distress. I know of the distress which was caused to a very large body of listeners when "Lift up your Hearts" was supplanted by "Ten to Eight". That is a programme title which seems to me to suggest peppermint creams rather than religion. Distress was caused also by the fact that under the new guise, those who listen to sermons in the early morning, instead of feeling that they were being preached at by somebody who had risen in the dark hours of a cold morning in order to clock in at Broadcasting House at 7.30, felt that they might be being preached to by somebody who was possibly fast asleep at the time of the broadcast, or sitting in bed drinking early morning tea and reading the Daily Express, and as such had no right to speak to them in that way.
The listening public is tremendously addicted to the arrangement of programme times. In a recent letter to The Times, the Director-General said that on radio you can no longer count

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on the effect of mixed programming with new ideas, and programmes having the same results as in the past, because people will look in their Radio Times and choose the programme that they want. That is not true. Radio listeners are not all housewives who like sweet music; they are not all young men who like "Pop "music. Many housewives are exceedingly intelligent. They rely on sound radio to lighten the burden of cooking, ironing and cleaning. I have two daughters, both quite intelligent, and that is the way they listen. That is the way they hear things that they do not expect to hear, and perhaps they would not have otherwise switched on to hear them. That certainly was the case with "Lift up your Hearts". A number of people had their hearts lifted, and no doubt achieved moral benefits from so doing; they found themselves involuntarily listening to "Lift up your Hearts "for fear of missing the weather programme. If the sequence had been different it would not have happened, because nobody can "lift up their hearts" after an English weather report. However, that is by the way.
I think this extreme conservatism of listeners to times and programmes has been overlooked by the framers of Broadcasting in the 'Seventies. I beg them to think again with regard to this matter. The sad part is that I believe they could have done just what they wanted to do without saying anything to the public at all, simply by switching from one channel to another programmes that they wanted to consolidate on one channel or another, so long as they kept their eyes skinned to see what the listener research figures showed as regards the effectiveness for the listener. Therefore, I disagree with the Director-General when he says mixed programmes are no longer relevant on sound radio. They may be relevant on television, but they are certainly relevant on sound radio. Let us have mixed programmes; let us have, so far as possible, our titles and our times. After all, when you rely on a particular programme at a particular time, it is a nuisance to have to alter your household arrangements to do something else at another time.
I feel it impertinent of me to give advice of this sort to the pundits of the
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B.B.C., merely because I disagree with certain conclusions. I may lay myself open to the accusation which Sir Hugh Greene levelled at the programme producers who ventured to do the same thing. The right reverend Prelate misquoted Sir Hugh Greene when he used the word "fools". What Sir Hugh Greene said was something worse; he said, "liars". Any of us may be fools—and perhaps we are not perfect—but we can all help being liars. As a matter of fact, I think that was a very unsuitable remark for Sir Hugh Greene to make in that connection. I will not repeat it. A Bishop may repeat that word; The Times may print it; in another House it may be used, but I will not soil my lips with it here.
5.20 p.m.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, I am glad that the noble Baroness has put these questions in perspective. A distinguished foreign visitor with whom I was recently in conversation expressed himself frankly incredulous that, at a time of tension and crisis in the Middle East, let alone Vietnam, the letter columns of our national newspaper The Times should for days on end be devoted to the home broadcasting services of the B.B.C. Had it been the Overseas Services which were under discussion, he would have understood it better. As it was, he found our present preoccupation sadly inward-looking and unworthy. This is not to say that I do not welcome the decision of the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, to put down this Motion on to-day's Order Paper. And I should like at the outset to congratulate also the noble Lord, Lord Ardwick, on his extremely entertaining and interesting maiden speech. I am glad to see that we belong to the same club: I hope that we shall both remain members of this club for many years, and I hope that we shall hear him address us often.
I too should like immediately to endorse the views expressed by other noble Lords that in regard to sound and television transmissions our services in this country bear comparison with those in any other part of the world. That said, I will not take issue with the noble Lord on the Liberal Front Bench on the rather stringent and perhaps slightly dogmatic assumption that those competent to judge find the Third Programme "the

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most satisfying and culturally significant". For those of us who agree with this view are in a minority. But the B.B.C. is in existence to provide a service not only for minorities but also for the public at large. Therefore I would judge that vox populi, if not always vox Dei, is certainly not vox domini Gladwynii. As I understand it, the new plans for streaming the sound programmes are necessary in order to effect economies. Perhaps this may be because the Corporation are trying to cover too wide a field. In an effort to retain (shall I say?) its stranglehold—I hope that that is not too strong a word—on sound programming the Corporation has to spread its resources too thinly over the main nationally networked programmes in order to embark with all speed into the field of local broadcasting.
Under the Government the Corporation has now been openly encouraged to set up numerous local stations. And, as my noble friend Lord Denham has indicated, we on this side of the House feel that this job of local broadcasting is not so much one for a national corporation as one for local interests. Commercial radio companies—and I have often declared that I once in fact formed one—could provide adequate, perhaps even more than adequate, programmes, at no cost to the B.B.C. and, indeed, with a considerable gain to the Treasury through the inevitable taxation which would be imposed—I only hope not levied—upon them. This would have left the Corporation with more money to continue to maintain its necessary standards on national services and, above all in the context of this debate, not to cut down on Third Programme material.
The issue is a domestic one and even, in terms of local broadcasting, a parochial one. Nevertheless, the matter is one of importance. The B.B.C. has many times been defended in this House— indeed, I myself have done it on more than one occasion. The B.B.C. as it was is something of which this country should be proud. The question now before us is whether we shall be able to have pride in the B.B.C. to-morrow. It would be dishonest to pretend that in sound broadcasting the management of the B.B.C. has not lost the confidence of its creative staff. The fact that more than 100 producers, at the risk of their jobs, should have
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signed a letter of open protest is proof enough of that. Equally, the B.B.C. has lost—I trust only temporarily—the confidence which it once enjoyed in intellectual circles. Those letters from the high tables of certain Cambridge colleges. including my own, are alarming proof of that. I think it is the B.B.C.—or perhaps the Government—which has got its priorities out of perspective. I say the "Government" because it is they who have permitted B.B.C. local sound broadcasting. But, of course, I fully agree with the noble Baroness that there should be no Government interference in programming. In this whole matter of local broadcasting, are we not departing from a policy of quality in favour of a policy of sheer quantity?
The B.B.C. has its four national radio services and will in a sense now have a fifth consisting of forty local radio stations. In addition, it is to be responsible for transmitting the programmes of the Open University, plus its own educational programmes for schools, not to mention the world-wide broadcasting on the Overseas Services, or its considerable magazine and book publications, or its two national television services and, I am glad to say, its exporting operations —all well and good in themselves, but surely such a mammoth would in any other country in the world have been already investigated by a monopolies commission.
The devotion of the B.B.C. to all that is best in sound broadcasting was once the admiration of the world. It would be idle to pretend—and certainly no serious sound producer in the B.B.C. would believe it—that television has not distracted the B.B.C.'s attention. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, in Broadcasting in the 'Seventies describes this as "the Television Age". I personally believe that the only way to restore the sense of dedication which the B.B.C. used to show towards sound broadcasting is to recognise the essential differences between the two media and to establish two corporations: one exclusively concerned with television and the other exclusively concerned with sound broadcasting. If indeed the noble Lord, Lord Pilkington, wants yet another Committee of Inquiry, that, and that alone, could well be the main subject of investigation.

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In the meantime, it is gratifying that democratic pressures should have been applied. Originally your Lordships will remember that the B.B.C. proposed to abolish an entire orchestra. That lamentable decision has now been rescinded because of pressure from influential musical opinion. Unfortunately no such organised, or so well organised, opposition outside the B.B.C. has been voiced about the spoken or the written word. As an author myself, and indeed a former contributor to the Third Programme, I deplore this. The first glimpse of the new sound radio programmes shows that there is to be a savage reduction in what I would call general literary programmes. Finally, I would say that this important subject—
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Earl?
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: Yes, but I am at the end of my speech.
LORD SHACKLETON: I should just like to ask him this. He used a rather interesting phrase, "The first glimpse". What was he referring to? I should like to look at it.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, there was in fact an analysis of the programmes in The Times this morning. I think that if they are analysed it will be seen that there is a considerable cut in these programmes—and I see other noble Lords nodding their head.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, it is astonishing that this should be referred to as a "first glimpse". The B.B.C. issued this analysis months ago and it has been published in the Listener. I notice that The Times claimed they were the first to reveal it. But as a comparison, we are not comparing like with like at all.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, all I can see is that there is a reduction in literary content in the proposed programmes. This important subject is clearly not a matter on which in a general way, apart perhaps from the issue of local broadcasting, I can criticise the Government, and during these pre-election days, weeks or months I must say that that is rather refreshing. We are concerned, my Lords, with the standards of national broadcasting, and
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national broadcasting is a matter of national and not Party interest.
5.30 p.m.
LORD ANNAN: My Lords, in rising I think I ought to declare an interest. When I came back from the war as a young don I almost lived off the Third Programme—or on it—and I was very grateful in those days for the opportunity to be asked to broadcast; and I owe a great debt to the man who was the progenitor of the Third Programme—Sir George Barnes. I mention his name because we sometimes fall into the trap of thinking that there is a complete dichotomy between the bureaucrat and the creative producer. Undoubtedly Sir George Barnes in his position as the Director of the Third Programme and, later, as the Director of Television, was a bureaucrat, but he had a wonderful way of teasing, encouraging and irritating the brilliant young producers under him to give of their best.
I well remember, too, that chief among those producers was Miss Anna Kallin, whose room was the nearest thing in our intellectual life in those days to a Viennese café in the decade before the First World War, when that city was so renowned for its intellectual brilliance. Here I should have liked to take issue with the noble Lord, Lord Ardwick, in his brilliant and magnificently delivered maiden speech, when he said that too often the Third Programme was a matter of dons talking to dons. Miss Kallin always saw to it that you did not give a talk of that kind. You were made to go back and do your homework again: not once, but twice. Those were the standards which the producers of the Third Programme imposed upon the people who talked in it. I am afraid it is all too characteristic of the B.B.C. that she retired without recognition or public honour.
The matter which we are discussing this afternoon is exceedingly complex. It is difficult to understand, first of all, what precisely is being changed, because the document which came out called Broadcasting in the 'Seventies declared that certain orchestras and the B.B.C. chorus were to be abolished and that the Third was to be sent out on V.H.F. Then the Arts Council and the Musicians' Union stepped in and the B.B.C. at once withdrew when they knew that "Big

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Brother" was watching them. As we all know, the intellectuals have no union, and I really do not see Sir Isaiah Berlin or even my successor, the Provost of King's leading a sit-in in the immediate future in the Director-General's room or the room occupied by the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, on the fourth floor of the B.B.C. However, having no union, they have one way of expressing their indignation. That is, of course, through the correspondence columns of The Times. I still hope, therefore, that the Chairman of the Governors and the Director-General have the impression that in this case "Little Brother" is watching them, too.
That may well be why, even up to this hour, the B.B.C. is still altering a detail here and a detail there and trying to reassure the public that there will be no fundamental change either in broadcasting standards or indeed in the amount of time given to the different kinds of broadcasting. I think the time has come, after this debate, when the B.B.C. should publish, as it were, a balance sheet or a profit and loss account, since the publication of Broadcasting in the 'Seventies. It would be extremely helpful to all of us who want to try to understand the matter fairly. There have been great changes announced, There have also been modifications—and in justice to the Governors and the Director-General of the B.B.C. it should be said that there have been changes made in response to the public protests. I do not think these changes have been sufficiently acknowledged; and they cannot be, unless a profit and loss account is rendered.
I want to make it plain why I did not join in the chorus of protests in The Times. I thought that in part this protest was a little misjudged. Indeed, I was sometimes amused when I saw some of the names of those who signed letters. I knew them to be people whose conversational prowess is of such brilliance and who are so voluble and able to talk for so many hours into the night that it is difficult to believe that any of them has the time to listen to the Third Programme.
Nevertheless I do regret the death of the Third. I have looked on it as a faithful and, to me at any rate, a benevolent old friend. But as an intellectual, I believe in research and in the dispassion-
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ate analysis of evidence. If the habits of listening to radio have changed since the 1940s, as the evidence suggests and as indeed on a priori grounds I should have thought would have been expected, then I am prepared to trust the Director-General to make the necessary modifications. What disturbs me is not the modifications or the changes: what disturbs me, as it has disturbed every speaker in this debate, is the fact that so many of the producers who are the creators within the British Broadcasting Corporation are so sceptical and fear so deeply that the peculiar qualities of the Third Programme will now be lost.
Yet here again I am perfectly willing to trust Mr. Curran when—having seen the strength of feeling on the death of the Third Programme—he states publicly that he will see to it that the quality of radio will not decline. I would make it clear that in my own mind there has been a decline, or at any rate a change in the style of broadcasting. But that occurred in the time of the last Director-General, Sir Hugh Carleton-Greene, and not in the time of Mr. Curran. Sir Hugh Greene certainly took the starch out of the Corporation and replaced it with a great deal of fizz. I was not quite clear sometimes whether the fizz was mineral water or champagne. It was in his time as Director-General that the first main slash was made at the Third Programme. I think it is to the credit of the present Director-General that during the past weeks of public debate he has made considerable concessions to those producers who opposed the main plan. In fact, I believe he has publicly stated that the new Radio 4 will accommodate just such long discussions as the famous encounter between Lord Russell and Father Coplestone, to which the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, referred, although I doubt whether he has yet got to the point when he would emulate Sir George Barnes in putting on over 50 talks on the "Ideas and Beliefs of the Victorians". When that comes to pass I shall really feel we are back in the old times again!
What makes me still slightly doubtful is not that we are going to have streamed programmes; what worries me is that these streamed programmes are divided into blocks of time. As a result, producers have to think in terms of schedules instead of in terms of programmes. That is one of the matters on which I hope

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again there may be some minor accommodation. The noble Lord, Lord O'Neill, put his finger right on the matter when he suggested that the business about the Third Programme is only part of a much wider affair; namely, the public financing of broadcasting. Here there has to be some new thinking. I am not one of those who think that now, immediately, we should set up a Royal Commission on the whole of broadcasting, or that we should forget that the Pilkington Commission sat, after all, only as recently as eight or nine years ago. I think it might be worth while, however, to set up an inquiry into the public financing of broadcasting.
Very great changes are going to take place in the 'seventies which were not particularly alluded to in the document the B.B.C. issued. These are technical changes and I do not pretend to understand them. For instance, we shall be able to send out three or four programmes simultaneously on one wavelength. That will make it very much easier to increase the volume of broadcasting. What is more, there will be an increased public demand for broadcasting, if experience in the United States is any guide, an increase in the amount of television and radio broadcasting both during the day and during the night. These prognostications suggest to me that we really ought to have a look again at the financing of broadcasting.
I very much agreed with the noble Lord, Lord O'Neill, when he said that it was not practical to look at putting up the price of the licence again. Let us never forget that the people who need broadcasting, and, if they can afford it, television, much more than the intellectuals, are the old-age pensioners, the old people who sit in their homes and are very often in these days, I am afraid, neglected by their families. It is their one contact with the outside world, provided they can afford the cost of the licence. I think the Government have done very well in resisting the pressure put upon them to put up the value of the licence.
May I add another point, though I add it with some apprehension? If I had to weigh the value educationally of a new university against the production of more broadcasting, I am not at all sure which,
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at this moment in time, I should prefer. May I refer again to Sir George Barnes? He became Director of Television after his time as Director of the Third Programme; and after he had most successfully seen through the televising of the Coronation he became Vice-Chancellor at the University of Keele. He once said that what puzzled and pained him was the belief, held in those times by the dons there, that television was a time-wasting and trivial affair which had no educational value at all and if you were a wise man, as a don, you would not have it in your house at any cost for fear your children might be contaminated. And George Barnes said:
"I, who have been to Macclesfield and seen the schools there and seen how television has already widened the horizons of schoolchildren, cannot believe that this has not got enormous educational value."
That is why I think some new attempt must be made to try to find funds to finance broadcasting.
May I end on the dispute between the B.B.C. Governors and their staff, on this note? A Director-General has one great advantage over a Vice-Chancellor such as I. A Vice-Chancellor in his university is quite unable to say, as the Director-General of the B.B.C. has said, "The time for talking must now come to an end and a decision must be taken". That is certainly a great advantage. But I think he and I are alike in this sense: that we have as our colleagues the people who are really creating something. They are very awkward and difficult people to deal with, but we must try to understand them, we must try to sympathise with them, we must have great concern for the things they are concerned about. And even if in the end we get absolutely amazed that one's explanations about finance, about administration, about the impossibility, administratively or organisationally, of doing this or that, cannot be understood; even though we cannot get the simplest administrative points across, nevertheless we have to remember that these are creators, these are people who have something which it is our duty to try to bring out as much as we possibly can. When a Vice-Chancellor looks in the mirror every morning as he shaves he ought to say, "I am a nuisance; am I a necessary nuisance?" Might I suggest the Director-General occasionally should say that?
5.46 p.m.
LORD FRANCIS-WILLIAMS: My Lords, may I begin by welcoming my old friend Lord Ardwick and saying how much I am sure we all enjoyed his maiden speech. Knowing him so well under his earlier name, I failed at first to recognise him when I saw his name on the list, but after hearing him speak I could only feel, with the late Lord Birkenhead, who I remember told a Liverpool audience, when he ceased 1:0 be "Galloper" Smith and became Lord Birkenhead, that whatever vissicitudes of nomenclature he might suffer he would always remain their faithful friend. I am sure that my old friend can carry the same compliment.
I participate in this debate with a good deal of sadness. It is now getting on for forty years, which makes me seem, I am afraid, very old, since I did my first radio broadcast for the B.B.C. Since then I have broadcast, I think, on every conceivable sound programme as well as on television. I have been for a period a member of the Board of Governors. I have known intimately a great many producers of all kinds, as well as writers and musicians and actors serving the B.B.C. I am bound to say that at no time in my experience have I found such bitterness and demoralisation among key creative members of the B.B.C. as exists today. Indeed, when one merely considers the correspondence in The Times (and that is only the tip of the iceberg) when one thinks that 134 producers in radio in London, plus 61 regional stall plus the Association of Broadcasting Staffs (which speaks of course for a much greater body), plus all the independent organisations, representing writers, musicians and artists, have all expressed their deep concern, one can only wonder what has happened to the Corporation which one knew so long. I have never been one to suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, was likely to be ineffective in public relations, but it would seem that in this instance he and his fellow Governors have been so.
The late Director-General, Sir Hugh Greene, said in a remark in a letter which has already been referred to in this House, on one occasion quoted wrongly and on another occasion quoted with a perhaps surprising degree of modesty, that the situation had arisen in which many pro-
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ducers and a great number of intelligent listeners were saying to the management of the B.B.C. "You are bloody liars"— and that is indeed the case: not that they necessarily are, but that that is what many of the new, most effective creative staff in the B.B.C. feel to be the case. There is a degree of misunderstanding, a credibility gap which is quite beyond anything that has ever been known before in the history of the B.B.C. I ask myself why that should be.
I think that part of the reason may be that there has been, or is suspected to have been, a great shift in the area, in the instruments of power within the B.B.C. Originally, the B.B.C. was created by a great Director-General, Lord Reith, and until recently it has always been felt by the staff—though it is no longer felt—that it was to the Director-General that they should look. Even though they might disagree with some of his decisions, they felt that they were being controlled and organised, and were given their instructions ultimately in programming, by a fellow professional. Now, rightly or wrongly, it is suspected that that long tradition of the B.B.C. of the pre-eminence of the Director-General has been set aside, and that since Lord Hill's appointment (and in many respects I have a great admiration for him) it is the Chairman and not the Director-General who is the pre-eminent personality and who is regarded as the voice and central figure of the B.B.C.
I think that that fact, or that suspected fact, has had a good deal to do with the creation of this atmosphere in the B.B.C. Because the staff tend to feel, perhaps quite wrongly—and here, of course, we are in the area of feelings, suspicions and anxieties, rather than of proven facts— that a Chairman, particularly this Chairman, is liable to be moved by motives and influences of a kind different from those which would move a professional person like the old Directors-General whose whole heart and soul was in the organisation, who lived for it all their lives, and who were not, as the Chairman is, holders of a part-time appointment.
I think, too, that part of the reason for this feeling of anxiety and distrust is that there has been a good deal of shifting of ground by the management of the B.B.C. Some of this shifting of ground we can all applaud. The original rigours of

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Broadcasting in the 'Seventies have been amended considerably as a result of public and internal protests. But the feeling remains, I know, from all the people that I know on the producer and other levels in the B.B.C., that it was Broadcasting in the 'Seventies, with its sharp cut in orchestras, its sharp cut in many cultural activities, that represents the real mind of the B.B.C. management to-day, even although it has had to move and bend before some public opinion.
Producers have, I believe, lost a great deal of their faith. Ever since the days of Lord Reith the B.B.C. has lived, and it exists and flourishes, on the faith of its producing staff, its creative staff, that they are doing work of great public and, indeed, moral and cultural importance. If that faith is eroded, then this is the most serious blow of any that can fall upon the B.B.C.
It was assumed—I personally think rightly, but I am open to correction—that the implication behind Broadcasting in the 'Seventies was that it was enough in the new situation, in the new changing society, to give the public what it wants. But is it? I think there is a much greater and more profound truth so far as the B.B.C. is concerned, in the statement in the Pilkington Report, that those who do give the public what it wants begin by underestimating public taste and end by debauching it. But it is the case that the impact of the B.B.C, and perhaps particularly the impact in its day of the Third Programme, came from the fact that it was realised that the Corporation must be prepared often to make programmes for what were obviously minority tastes, because in the case of the Arts supply creates demand, and it is only if this kind of programme is available that a public taste for it will grow.
Any of us who have taken part in the Third Programme in the past is well aware of this. One was invited to give a talk on the Third Programme. One applied oneself to it with something of the same sort of mind that one would apply in writing an article for one of the quarterlies rather than for a popular daily. One spent more time on it, although one did not expect to get more, or even as much, money. But again and again I myself found, and I know that other people found, that the programme to which one devoted so much care and
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attention, simply because one was always measuring oneself against a sophisticated, adult and critical audience, turned out much more profitable than others, even in money terms, because later it was repeated on so many other programmes, and was republished in The Listener, that virtue was rewarded with a much fatter cheque.
It was because programmes of this kind succeeded in building up, if you like in creating larger audiences, that they represented so important a part of the B.B.C. And, as I say, rightly or wrongly it is the great fear of many of the best producers in B.B.C. radio, of many of the best writers for B.B.C. radio, of many of the best musicians and actors who appear on B.B.C. radio, that there is now to be a close-down on this kind of experimentation, this appeal to a possibly small but nevertheless serious audience which may be found to develop very largely. It is this feeling—though it may be wrong—that is at the root of this dismay and bitterness.
Such programme schedules as have been made available suggest that some, at any rate, of these fears felt by the producers and other creative artists may prove correct, but we have not enough evidence really to know whether that is indeed so. I do say, however, that it is now the most urgent business of the B.B.C, of its Chairman, of its Governors, of its Director-General and all its management, to make it clear to producers and other creative workers that they are prepared to allow experiment; that they encourage ideas, and are infinitely more open than they seem to have been in the last few months to ideas and criticisms, not only from their staffs but from viewers and listeners, from the public, even though, to use one of their own phrases, "The public may sometimes be so small that it cannot be traced in an audience survey". It is often that tiny element —as I think the great Directors-General of the B.B.C. like Lord Reith and Sir William Haley recognised—which provides a ground in which, so to speak, seeds can be planted that will later provide a profuse and valuable crop for a much larger audience.
6.2 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I have listened to every speech in this most interesting debate, and I am sure we are

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all indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, for initiating it. I deplore, with my noble friend Lord Francis-Williams, the staff troubles that have arisen between the staff of the B.B.C. and the Directors and Governors; but speaking from the point of view of the programme alignment, and as a listener, I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough—I cannot see what all the fuss is about. Listening to some of the speeches to-day, anybody would think that the whole of our social fabric was about to disintegrate; when all that has happened is that the Governors of the B.B.C. have taken a long, cool look at what the B.B.C. is doing to-day and what is required. They have brought out a paper called Broadcasting in the 'Seventies—in the 'seventies, not in the 'thirties —which takes into account present-day tastes and requirements.
I agree with my noble friend Lord Ardwick—and I should like to add my congratulations to those expressed by other noble Lords on his most vigorous and constructive maiden speech—that there is a need to-day for streamlining. There are grave disadvantages in mixed programmes. I find it extremely irritating, if I want to hear, say, some "Pop", after a short while finding that there is some Palm Court, or a talk on gardening, which I know nothing about and could not care less about. Or it might happen the other way round. I can understand the original reasons for the mixed programmes. These, of course, stem from the days when the B.B.C. had a monopoly and the paternalistic views prevailed. The idea then was that you infiltrated a popular programme with subjects which you thought were more important because they appealed particularly to you. But, as my noble friend Lord Ardwick said, you cannot get away with that to-day because people will just turn off or switch over to television.
The noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, talked about quality, as also did other speakers, including the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester. I think it is very difficult to define quality. Quality can really only be judged in a subjective way, depending on individual tastes. I do not know what is more desirable from a cultural point of view—to cite a typical Third Programme—a poetry reading from
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Les Fleurs du Mal in English translation, assessed in importance against, say, a light classical concert. I do not know which is the more important, and I do not know which does the more good.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that if you cannot define quality it is bound to deteriorate?
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, here again it depends what quality is, and what you mean by deterioration. It really depends on your individual taste. The main need for radio—and here I think the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, agrees with me—is above all for music; whether it is "Pop", light, or serious. I know that the noble Lord does not like "Pop" music or light music, but a great many people do. There is a great need for it, and there is also a need for news, comment, and opinion. There is a need for plays, discussion and light entertainment. Indeed, most listeners today expect to get what they tune in for—and why should they not? If you take a book down from the shelf you expect the contents to be what is shown on the cover. If you start reading and find that it is the same, you do not want it to change half way through.
Therefore, I agree entirely with this new alignment for Radios 1, 2, 3 and 4. I think there are great advantages on the credit side. I welcome the fact that Radios 1 and 2 will have greater separation, although I think it is a pity that they are going to merge again in the early evening. I know that this is a question of finance and that it will be rectified in due course. I welcome the fact that Radio 3 will have more music, and also that some of the cultural speech programmes will be retained. I also particularly welcome that Radio 4 will now be a clearly defined speech network, be cause we must not forget, while we are talking of the minorities, that there is a minority who do not like music in any form, and they are going to be catered for by Radio 4.
What are we going to lose by this realignment? The Third already consists largely of serious music, and that is to be increased. Radio 3 will carry some poetry and plays, which they do extremely well. What will be dropped, I suppose, will be some of the more esoteric programmes,

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and I wonder whether these are always suitable for the medium to-day. There is no longer the need, or the audience (which anyway was always small) for the kind of talk which, at best, was often little more than a rehash of existing material or, at worst, was pretentious, superficial and inaccurate; a kind of coffee table programme. I hope that we shall not see any more of the type of programme that seems to be put on mainly for the pleasure of the producer rather than for the listener. As I think the noble Lord, Lord Annan, said, "dons for dons".
What justification was there for taking up valuable broadcasting time on the Third at the expense of, say, some serious music, to put on a ridiculous programme like "Brian Howard—Portrait of a Failure". For any noble Lord interested I can commend its reprinting in the Listener of January 18, 1968, as I believe it is an example of the kind of programme that the Third really should not attempt to do. I think its only justification was that it produced some rather amusing and searing lampoons in the weeklies.
However, I concede that, on the whole, the Third does a good job—although it has suffered; has been the victim of its own ivory tower. What we need now is to get away from the whole conception and term "the Third Programme" and the rarified image that it conjures up. There is evidence that listeners are deterred by it, and that programmes repeated on Radio 4 usually attract higher audiences. There does not seem to be any logic behind the apportioning of programmes between Radio 3 and the so-called Third Programme. The theory is, I suppose, that at some magic hour in the early evening the programme becomes more civilised and altogether more worthy of intellectual attention. And yet, even a random check of programmes this week reveals a very arbitrary allocation between the two on the same evening. For example, to-day you have Prokofiev on Radio 3; you have Shostakovich on the Third. On February 27 there is Bach on Radio 3 and Bartok on the Third. I cannot understand why these musicians are apportioned in this way. I think there is every advantage in doing away with a programme of this kind which has been known as the Third, which has little
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meaning to-day, and streamlining the whole thing into Radio 3 in the way proposed by the B.B.C. I think the B.B.C. has shown imagination, courage and a sense of realism, and we should be deeply grateful to it. I feel sure that as we go forward into the 'seventies, and indeed into the 'eighties, the B.B.C. will maintain its highest traditions.
6.11 p.m.
LORD GOODMAN: My Lords, I must first apologise to the noble Lord who moved this Motion for the fact that I was not able to be here to hear what I understand was a most interesting and impressive speech. I was engaged at the monthly meeting of the Arts Council and have, through their courtesy, been enabled to come here to participate in a debate in which I can venture to say they are much concerned.
Perhaps I might start by saying how sad it is that we should see the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, in a captive state unable to participate this evening. I think it is an unfortunate rule—though I can see the arguments both ways— that prevents him from answering back. I know nobody better equipped to answer back, and that such a doughty fighter should be confined to one of the corners and see us all boxing on his behalf is a rather sad thing. It reminds me a little of the condition of the criminal law some time in the 1900s when it was not open to a defendant to enter the witness box. That state was reformed rapidly, but it must have been particularly frustrating to a defendant when he felt, as I am sure the noble Lord feels in this matter, that he was entitled to an honourable acquittal.
I must say that to some extent I feel about this debate as the noble Lord. Lord Annan, feels. I do not for a moment agree with the noble Earl, Lord Bessborough, that this is a fuss about nothing. I think this is a fuss about very important things. I should not have agreed for one moment with the foreign visitor who said how deplorable it was that we were concentrating our efforts and our newsprint on discussing this matter, and not confining them to discussion of foreign affairs. There is, I think, one practical point: in the discussion of foreign affairs we can do nothing effective or useful; in this matter we can do things that are both effective and useful. The preservation of what

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we all regard with pride and with justification as the greatest broadcasting service in the world is not a matter of small importance. But that does not mean that, because there has been a fuss about it, it may not have been an inordinate fuss, and I do not think the B.B.C. realised quite what it was taking on in this matter.
The noble Lord, Lord Annan, said that dons have no trade unions. The last weeks have demonstrated how well they can do without trade unions, because what I do not think the B.B.C. realised was that this was a controversy which it could not really hope to win. The only people passionately, vehemently concerned about the Third Programme were people of the type who have, properly, having regard to their vehemence and their passion, been writing letters to The Times. The rest of mankind is undoubtedly wholly apathetic: he does not enter the controversy at all. The unfortunate B.B.C., charged with the duty of conducting the radio and television services of the country with one hand, and endeavouring to write a stream of letters to The Times with the other, has been under an impossible disadvantage. Every letter from a High Table at a Cambridge college, and occasionally an Oxford college, has emerged immaculate, every word chased with venom, every word carefully chosen, in a fashion calculated to demolish any institution. The finest brains in the country have felt legitimate resentment that something they are concerned about is imperilled, and the unfortunate B.B.C. has stood alone, exercising such efforts as it could find time for in after-hours, to deal with an attack of unequalled ferocity, and a ferocity that I cannot recollect at any time in my own recollection of previous events in this country.
My Lords, I think it is a bit much. I do not think the B.B.C. was wise to do away with the Third Programme. I think the Corporation was unwise, because I do not think it realised to what extent the Third Programme represented the concentration and focus of the loyalty and dedication of a great number of people. As the noble Lord, Lord Francis-Williams, so admirably put it, a great number of people felt for the Third Programme, particularly for its producers, a sense of religious concentra-
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tion and dedication. I think that the B.B.C., in its top management, has failed to some extent to appreciate the force of this feeling and is, in consequence, faced with the situation that now prevails.
At the same time, I believe that the nature of the situation can be greatly exaggerated. I do not see it as a whole-sale and widespread mutiny from top to bottom of the organisation. Anyone who has dealt over the years with creative people and with broadcasters knows the muttering that has gone on always about the B.B.C. and about the top control of the B.B.C. This is no novelty. I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Francis-Williams, brought into the open the observations that have been made, and the alleged suspicions about the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, and the change of control, because in my view much of this fuss is due to suspicions—and I venture to say baseless suspicions.
It is not my function to seek to defend the noble Lord, Lord Hill, but I think we ought to be extremely fair-minded in this matter and ask: on what evidence are these suspicions supported and sustained? The first suspicion that was aired about the noble Lord when he went to the B.B.C. was that he was going to impose a form of censorship. That I heard, and there was great apprehension about it. Everyone suspected that he would exercise some sort of control and that he had been sent there for that purpose. My Lords, there is not a jot or tittle of evidence anywhere to support that belief since his accession to power.
The second suspicion is that, for some reason or other, Lord Hill and a few others under his control are exercising an undue influence in programme shaping and have decided that they will make them more popular and will damage their cultural content. It would of course be iniquitous if anyone had formed any such notion. The pride of the B.B.C. is the cultural content of the programmes. It has recognised, as few other organisations have recognised, that a subsidised body has a duty to minorities, and over the years it has discharged that duty in exemplary fashion. But I do not see any evidence to support a suggestion that there has been a deliberate change of policy. I know of no evidence to support the suggestion that the noble Lord is intervening more than his predecessors

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did in programme planning; and I know of no evidence to the contrary. There is just no evidence. In these circumstances, to bring in a verdict of "guilty" on the basis of suspicion and speculation aroused in newspapers is wrong.
May I say that The Times has rendered a great service by opening its columns to this debate? No one can pretend that there is not a slightly tendentious note in some of its comments— as when, for instance, it remarked this morning that the additional music that was being provided in the three specimen programmes that it instanced would have been described by Sir Thomas Beecham —of all people—as having a "lollipop" quality. There was no-one who had a more selective view of music than Sir Thomas Beecham. It would be nonsense to take as the criterion for determining the full range of the programmes his assessment of what music was wholly suitable.
One has only to look at these three specimen programmes to see that no conclusion can be drawn from them at all. I could argue, having studied them quite carefully this morning over my boiled egg, that there was an enormous increase in the poetry content, for the reason that in the three programmes with which they were compared there was no poetry at all. In the three days' programmes instanced in The Times there was half-an-hour of poetry. One could draw any conclusion one was minded to come to, according to one's previous predispositions in this matter. That was perfectly clear.
Another fact is clear, if one goes to the trouble, as I have gone to the trouble, to talk to the top people at the B.B.C. concerned with this matter—not, I hasten to add, to the noble Lord, Lord Hill, with whom I have not exchanged a single word on this subject. I have taken the trouble to telephone, for instance, Sir William Glock, whose contribution to the music of this country has been epochal. It is quite impossible to exaggerate the importance that that solitary figure has had in the growth of, and interest in, music in this country. Are we to believe that he would remain at his post if he had for one moment a suspicion that everything that he had
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worked for over the years was being wantonly destroyed by some machinations at the top? I, for one, do not believe it. I do not believe that Mr. Newby, or any one of the dozens of people whom I have known, who have been friends of mine for years at the B.B.C., and who remain dedicated to their work at the moment, entertains the slightest suspicion that there is a determined intention on somebody's part to destroy the cultural content of the programmes.
If I may say so in the presence of the noble Lord, Lord Hill, I think the public relations have been deplorable; but I am not sure that, on the whole, the B.B.C. ought to devote too much time to public relations. It is entitled to be judged by the results. We have not seen the results. What we have seen is a most unholy clamour before anyone has felt the slightest prick. If I may say so, the intellectual revolution is one of the most surprising manifestations, because a band of intellectual insurrectionists are rioting in the streets to preserve the Bastille. This is indeed an historic moment and one to which we are entitled to draw attention!
I should like to take a little of your Lordships' time to give you the benefit of my own sleuthing in the B.B.C. At the Arts Council we are naturally concerned with a number of things, and one is the musical content of the programmes. Now, unanswerably, there is to be more music. The Times says that some of it is "lollipop music", but certain it is that it is music of the type that we regard as serious and classical music that is fit for performance, and is performed, in the major concert halls in the country. There is to be more of that. No one can complain about that. The B.B.C. had in mind the dissolution of a number of orchestras because of the quite unnecessary financial stringency to which it was exposed. I do not wish to say anything critical about the Government on this subject, but it seems to me very odd that we have to maintain these great services on the chance result of the collection of a revenue from licences. I hope that one day we shall have the sense to realise that these bodies should be financed according to their needs and not according to the accident of what some particular method of revenue garnering provides.

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But, be that as it may, we at the Arts Council—and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hill, will not mind my divulging these facts, because I think they are of some interest in this discussion—when the intention was first mooted to dissolve the various orchestras, sent him a telegram. We could not have been treated with greater consideration and courtesy. We were invited to early meetings and we discussed the matter very fully with the B.B.C. As a result of our interventions, perhaps, or perhaps to a greater extent as a result of the intervention of the Musicians' Union, means have, I think, been found for ensuring that no orchestras will be dispersed or dissolved. Because the notion that you can dissolve an orchestra is, if I may venture to say so, a very far-going and drastic one. Once you have dissolved an institution of that kind, it cannot be reassembled. The B.B.C. accepted this; and I am very happy to say that, as a result of that discussion, we have, with the willing and prompt co-operation of the noble Lord and of Mr. Curran, established a committee for future co-operation between the Arts Council and the B.B.C. When matters about which we are concerned arise in future, there is a standing committee now established to which they can be referred and which will meet once or twice a year to discuss them, automatcally and ad hoc as the occasion requires.
It is quite wrong, in my experience, to suggest that representations were not willingly received or that the B.B.C. was stone deaf on this subject. It was not the case at all. Its treatment of the producers, its refusal apparently to allow Lord Hill to see the producers, was, if I may venture to say so, a mistake. In dealing with creative people one must recognise that they have special responses and special reflexes. They need to be satisfied that their views are being taken into account; and I think that much of this trouble is due to the fact that they entertain this sort of suspicion without having carried out the investigations that some of us have bothered to carry out to see whether any evidence exists to support it.
The second matter with which we are concerned is drama. Apparently there is to be a modest reduction in the drama schedules. There is to be a 50-hour
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reduction over a 1,400-hour in all schedule throughout the year. That is so small as to be, not totally unimportant but certainly not sufficiently important to arouse the fuss and bother that has been aroused about it. And, as I think was remarked by the noble Lord, Lord Annan, it could certainly have been carried out without anyone noticing it if it had taken place in the ordinary programme scheduling.
The third matter, about which I venture to think I am in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, is the situation in relation to the contributions of writers and literary people in the whole field of sound broadcasting so far as the Third Programme is concerned. It is difficult to assess what the immediate consequences will be. I understand that the B.B.C. Is not expecting any appreciable reduction in the employment of these people. It would be deplorable if there were. Writers in this country are so disgracefully rewarded that any reduction in the avenues from which they can secure employment and payment would be deplorable in the extreme. But there is no evidence that that is going to happen; and, if I may say so, if this is the one matter about which we are legitimately concerned, it is sensible in the extreme to wait and see what happens before we start abusing everyone within sight.
Mr. Curran gave me an assurance this morning, which he was prepared to repeat to me personally, as the Chairman of the Arts Council, that if after a relevant period of time it was observed that there had been a reduction in this sort of employment, he would immediately review the situation, and review it in conjunction with us. I think that is reassuring. My experience is that one does not have to say to the B.B.C, "We do not believe what you have said". I think the B.B.C. is an organisation which, on its record, is worthy of being trusted. I do not think it has done anything to justify the loss of that particular reputation.
I should like to conclude by saying only this. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, has rendered a great service by enabling us to discuss in the open matters which have been the subject of mutterings and whispers. It is right— and I hope the noble Lord, Lord Hill,

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will not have been embarrassed by what I have said—that we should refer to these suspicions and that they should be allayed by public statement and public denial. If we examine what the B.B.C. is doing, there appears to be no justification for the suspicions. There is justification for a statement that, in their public relations, they have been a little inept. There is justification for a statement that, on the face of it, there may be some reductions in relation to the use of literary persons and authors. That should be carefully watched and certainly prevented if it does arise.
Whether or not it is wise to have destroyed this very great programme I have my doubts and my misgivings. But we are in the 1970s. It must be left to the people who have the control of the conduct of these organisations to decide, after serious deliberation and after consultation with everyone concerned, what it is best to do. That I should have done something else, that I think it wrong to have desroyed the Third Programme, is, I think, largely irrelevant. What is important is whether, following what they do and after our having given it a fair test, we have grounds for holding the doubts and suspicions which have up to now been aired.
There is one final observation I should like to make, because I believe it with great vehemence. I think that, through no fault of the noble Lord, Lord Hill, through no fault of Mr. Curran, through no fault of anyone in charge of that organisation, it has become top-heavy and unwieldy. 1 think the organisation is too large to be handled by any single administration. This is a matter which this Government or some subsequent Government will have to look into very carefully. I think that, when we come to look at it, we shall see that it may not be right to have television, broadcasting and all these multifarious and multiple operations, conducted under a single control. This is a matter which needs to be looked at very carefully. But I hope that the result of this very calm and objective debate—which has, if I may say so, as always, had the feature of debates in this House of reducing things into perspective and into proportion— will be to remove much of the unjust accusations which have been levelled,
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while leaving us still very watchful and very vigilant about the future.
6.30 p.m.
LORD WADE: My Lords, I should like to direct my remarks primarily to regional broadcasting, but before doing so I must thank my noble friend Lord Gladwyn for moving this Motion and providing the House with the opportunity for an extremely interesting and valuable debate. He has certainly chosen a very topical subject and, as was to be expected, the discussion has been mainly on the Third Programme.
On the subject of the Third Programme I do not for one moment wish to go over all the ground covered by my noble friend, but in spite of some of the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, I still think that there axe some flaws in the arguments that have been put forward for the discontinuance of the Third Programme and in favour of the principle of the specialised network. For example, it is contended that a high-quality programme will reach a larger audience on Radio 4. I have no doubt that that is so; but one of the functions of the B.B.C, in fact one of its great merits, is that it acts in a pioneering role and it would seem to me that a third programme—not necessarily the Third Programme that we have had in recent years but a third programme —is well suited for this particular task. If a piece of music or a talk is a success on the Third and is repeated on Radio 4, it may well be that more will hear it on Radio 4. That is all to the good. But I should like to see a relationship between Radio 3—or the Third Programme, if we are allowed to continue to use those words—similar to that relationship between B.B.C.2 and B.B.C.1. There have been some splendid programmes put out for the first time on B.B.C.2 and later seen on B.B.C.1. I am not sure that this will be practicable under the new plan so far as sound radio is concerned.
I am sure that the controversy that has been raging goes very much wider than a concern over the future of the Third Programme. I believe that the protests over the Third Programme represents only the tip of the iceberg. I do not think that the protests of the staff can be explained away as merely the objections to change by people who are to be

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affected by that change. The letters that have been written to The Times and elsewhere seem to me to represent a spontaneous outbrust of concern. Rightly or wrongly, there is a general uneasiness about the future of the B.B.C. Many of those who have devoted years of their lives to working for the B.B.C. regard it as a great public service with a very fine tradition; and there is this feeling of uncertainty about the future.
My Lords, as the debate is not limited to the subject of the Third Programme, I should like to turn for a few moments to another casualty; namely, the dismantling of regional broadcasting—I am speaking, of course, about England and, in particular, about the Northern Region of which I have some slight knowledge. The relevant sentence in Broadcasting in the 'Seventies is:
"With the establishment of local radio, we believe that the present regional and area radio programmes would be progessively superseded."
I fear that that may prove to be a retro-grade step. From the talks which I have had with some representatives of the staff in the Northern Region I am convinced that the fears of the staff in the North of England have not yet been allayed. 1 am not suggesting that the old boundaries should be kept as they are for all time. Obviously there must be change.
So far as B.B.C. television is concerned, the North is to be split up into three areas centred on Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle. That seems to be a reasonable and sensible arrangement so long as there are facilities to enable genuine regional work to be carried out. But even there the extent to which these television centres will be used for genuine regional work is in doubt. Even the Manchester centre could prove to be mainly a studio of convenience for London producers. 1 keep hearing the complaint that talent is already being drained away from the Regions and that the existing vehicle for finding and encouraging more talent is to disappear. This obviously, if it be true, is contrary to the policy of developing regional talent and regional experience.
I am not wishing to belittle local radio. I am anxious to encourage local radio. I think there is a need for it. But we have to recognise that those responsible for it have very limited resources. On
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Saturday, I listened to "Any Questions". It is a very popular programme—and incidentally it is a development of regional broadcasting. But I noted the extraordinary ignorance of the team about Broadcasting in the 'Seventies. I am sure that if the noble Baroness, Lady Stocks, had been on the team they would have been very much better informed. Even when the plan had been outlined they appeared to be under the impression that an increase in local radio stations is synonymous with the development of regionalism; but unfortunately that is not so. Local radio, as noble Lords are aware, mainly deals with recorded music and local news and, of course, is handicapped by lack of adequate finance. Furthermore, some parts of the country —such parts as Northumberland, where it may take quite a long time for new local radio stations to reach them—will lose regional broadcasting. For example, the farming areas will not get the early morning weather forecast or the regional news bulletin. They will be worse off.
Again, I fear that local radio will not have the resources to sponsor important concerts and to bring out promising new playwrights or musicians. As to what will happen if the B.B.C. has to compete with commercial radio, I do not know. I am not at all enthusiastic about the introduction of commercial radio. But if it is to come and it is not under the umbrella of the B.B.C, then the B.B.C. must be in a position not to be compelled to lower its standards-It has been said that there are too many criticisms and that few have put forward constructive alternatives. I do not think that that is altogether fair, but I should like to suggest that a solution lies in maintaining a regional structure and linking it more closely with local radio. I think that working together regional and local radio could produce a viable set-up. I have read an interesting article on this subject by Mr. Randal Herley of Manchester, but at this hour I think it would be discourteous to your Lordships to go into the subject in detail. But I think there is a possible way ahead if there were closer links between regional structure and local radio stations, and I hope that it is not too late to consider an advance along these lines.
This brings me to the question of what is to be done. If the criticisms that have

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been made are valid—and I am not referring only to my own criticisms—what can be done about them? Is it too late? The Director-General in The Times on Monday said, in effect—and I hope that this is a fair summary—" The debate about the programme structure is now over. We have heard the arguments of certain members of the staff. We disagree with them. That is the end of the matter." And in the letter to which several references have been made, which appeared in The Times of February 20, Sir Hugh Greene said in effect—again I am summarising—" Wait and see. If next autumn serious damage is done, is seen to be done, to radio, then protests will carry conviction ". It seems to me that that may well be too late. In any case, I find it a little difficult to reconcile the words of the Director-General and the advice of Sir Hugh Greene.
I believe that the answer may well be two-fold. The long-term is the appointment of a Royal Commission. It may be that a Joint Select Committee would be preferred. I come down on the side of a Royal Commission, but clearly that will take time. In the short-term it is important, I think, that those responsible for the B.B.C. should listen carefully to criticism, particularly constructive criticism. After all, if this is a public service discussion should be welcomed. I was encouraged by a remark of the noble Baroness, Lady Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, at the conclusion of her speech about listening to what is said in this debate. I hope that at the end of this debate it will not be said by those responsible for the B.B.C. that before the debate ever started the real debate was already over, and that was the end of the matter.
6.41 p.m.
LORD RITCHIE-CALDER: My Lords, like everyone else, I want to thank the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, for having given us the opportunity to discuss this subject. I wish also to pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Ardwick for his very rousing speech. I would have said, in the conventional way, that I hope we shall hear more from him; but I can tell your Lordships from experience of my noble friend that there is no question about it that we shall.
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My Lords, I am in some embarrassment in this situation. Like my noble friend, Lord Francis-Williams, I think my first experience of broadcasting was somewhere about 1928. I have been feeling like an old veteran in some of the debates we had on the dissolution of the Territorial Army and the disappearance of noble regiments; but in fact I was one of Reith's early "grenadiers". We are in some difficulty—those of us who have had considerable involvement in radio and television on the practical level and a great deal of educational training from the B.B.C. in the professionalism of broadcasting, both in terms of radio and television. We are, perhaps, very sensitive; even more sensitive (if I may say so in the absence of Lord Annan) than the dons. We are not quite so articulate. We do not rush into the papers. But many of us have lived and worked with people who are now, as they say, against the terms of their contract, coming out in public protest. To me their action is more significant than that of the dons— far more significant.
These people, my Lords, most of whom I know—and my noble friend Lord Francis-Williams knows them, too, as do many other noble Lords—are men of great rectitude, with a great deal of constructive imagination; men of whom it may perhaps be said that they have given their lives to this medium. They are people who are fighting, as I would fight, a rearguard action for sound radio. I am not going to get involved in an argument about the schedules or what is being done with sound radio in the reshaping, but I think we are all sensitive to the fact that in the general attitude of the B.B.C. a great deal more attention is paid to television, in which people like myself probably earn a great deal more than in sound radio. But I think that if we are not careful we shall find ourselves in grave danger. In fact, this is behind the whole of this crisis of confidence: the feeling of people who have an awareness and a genuine dedication to the sound medium that their world of sound is being shaken.
They are also very sensitive because people are not going into sound radio, or are being deliberately redirected from sound radio to television because that is the great expanding enterprise. That is not true. The most exciting days I have ever had in my life in broadcasting were

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in sound radio and not television. Think of how evocative sound radio is, compared with vision. Television tells you exactly what you have to look at. It says, "This is what you are seeing; this is Mr. Pickwick"—as some producer has made him and not as someone you imagine. But sound has an enormous capacity to be evocative; to ring the bells of imagination and to stimulate thinking.
We are promised four channels in sound. My noble friend Lord Strabolgi said that we ought to put it all in a self-service tray and say, "What do you want?". But that is not what we are talking about. This is not just stream-lining in terms of convenience for listeners. We are talking about something which is part of the noble tradition of British broadcasting. This is something which is essential and important. We are not thinking of it as something which is merely a convenience for listeners. Do not think, my Lords, that I want to inconvenience listeners—not at all—but, as my noble friend, Lady Stocks, pointed out, the B.B.C., beyond all other broadcasting systems of the world, has educated or involved people in exciting ideas and in interests that they never knew they had. That has happened because people have eavesdropped on programmes, like the housewife who could not get across the room fast enough to switch off the programme for schools and found she was actually interested in mathematics. People from all over the place have heard something, and said, "Goodness! The Third Programme"—or what is now to be Radio 4—" had an interesting programme: I heard it on my car radio." This kind of involvement, of getting people involved and stimulating them and making them think, is far more concerned with sound radio than with television.
When we lament the passing of the Third Programme it is rather like lamenting the passing of the gold sovereign. That was true currency. That we got away with pound notes later on and that we are to have a decimal currency does not alter the fact that the sovereign was the currency. We travelled the world on the credit of the Third Programme. If you wanted to make a real impression at UNESCO, or somewhere like that, you needed only to quote the Third Programme. Surely that is the great contribution, apart from its other great
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services, which the B.B.C. rendered. It is the fact that it kept the Free World together during the war; but this was one of its great cultural contributions, and therefore we are sad about it. I think we should not only treat it with proper respect and lament it; we should retain it. It is the "sovereign". My noble friend Lord Fiske is going to give us the decimal pound, but he will never get rid of the guinea in professional terms. The Third Programme is the "sovereign" or the "guinea" of professional radio.
Like my noble friend Lord Francis-Williams, I would say that it is a mistake, which many people make, to think of the Third Programme as an exercise in high quality, simply of don talking to don, as somebody has said. Not only do Third Programme items get into the Listener, and get repeated in other programmes, but the number of requests that contributors receive for articles based on their talks on the Third Programme shows that this programme, a programme of this quality, has not simply a donnish interest but a far-spread interest all the way through society. I think it is a great mistake to look simply at the figures and to say, "Only 50,000 people listen to the Third Programme. This is a very limited area; why do we not go out into the open spaces of ' pop' music?" I am not trying to stop anybody doing that, but I think that the point of reference on which to start is the Third Programme and its quality, which we want not only to preserve but to encourage and develop.
I lament the fact that this situation has arisen. It is not merely an embarrassment to find oneself involved on both sides of the table, but there is also the fact that this is a conflict which ought never to have arisen. The noble Lord, Lord Goodman, has said that it was a fault in public relations. With respect to the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, it is a catastrophic failure in public relations. It is worse: it is a failure in personal industrial relations, which has seriously shaken the fabric of the B.B.C. We cannot get away from this. We cannot say that the B.B.C. producers are a lot of prima donnas. We do not have 130 prima donnas in the B.B.C. producers. They are hard-working people, who are creative and encourage

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creation; and once we have taken from them the sense that they are creative people who are to be encouraged and who must encourage other people, we have killed practically their life's work.
It is here that I feel that the lack of consultation, and the bringing in, as we always see done, of the inevitable McKinseys, the people who were going to look at the system purely in terms of cost-efficiency, are intolerable in an organisation which depends on creative people. We have seen this happen so often. Those responsible for the organisation say: "We have got too big. We must look at ourselves again. We are costing too much money and indulging too many people in too many different ways. Let us bring in an objective outsider." My Lords, there is no such thing as an objective outsider in a creative enterprise, because it simply kills the essence of creation. I say this with a great depth of feeling.
What is happening in the B.B.C. happened in an institution with which 1 was intimately connected, the News Chronicle. That newspaper, which had some of the quality and integrity of the B.B.C, died of too much inspection. Everybody came in and pulled up the potatoes to see whether they were growing, and all the potatoes died. But that newspaper could have been saved if the owners had listened to their own professionals; not to individuals making their own cases for their own particular interests, but to the men who made the name on which that paper stood. We knew what was wrong with the paper and how it could be improved. We were not trying to tell the directors, any more than the staff of the B.B.C. are seeking to tell the Chairman and Governors of the B.B.C, how their business should be run. But we were saying, with as much sincerity and integrity as the staff of the B.B.C. are doing to-day:" This is the character of the paper you ought to be producing. This is the paper we want to work on". If we do not get the people in the B.B.C. to work for the higher purposes in the B.B.C, they are going to say, "Sorry; we are not going into the 'seventies with the B.B.C".
6.55 p.m.
LORD GRANVILLE of EYE: My Lords, we are nearing the end of an
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interesting debate and I will be brief, because I think that almost everything that can be said has been said by previous speakers. We are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, for introducing this debate on the problem of the Third Programme and I agree with what he said in his introductory speech. We have in this country the best broadcasting system in the world. I am extremely sorry, whether McKinsey has said it or not, that by this kind of decision the Third Programme has to go. 1 imagine that it is too late now to make any plea before April to get this unfortunate decision rescinded.
I should like to join in the congratulations to my noble friend Lord Ardwick on his interesting maiden speech, in which he gave us the benefit of his great experience. He said that he thought commercial radio would inevitably come in this country. I hope not. I often wonder how the decisions are taken in this great and august body, the B.B.C, and by whom they are taken. I also wonder whether the debates in another place and in your Lordships' House, and also the Questions put from time to time achieve anything. The noble Lord, Lord Hill of Luton, the Chairman of the B.B.C. has attended this debate and listened to the speeches, but what about the top brass in the B.B.C? Do they read and study what is said in Parliament, which may or may not reflect public opinion?
The Government of the day have always refused to interfere in the day-to-day administration and policy direction of the B.B.C. It would be interesting if my noble friend the Leader of the House could tell us, when he comes to reply, how this decision was finally arrived at and whether there was the fullest consultation with the Minister responsible. The noble Lord, Lord O'Neill of the Maine, in his interesting speech, referred to the problem of finance and of public demand, but I ask, as other noble Lords have asked: is the fading out of the Third Programme really going to solve the problem of public demand (or whatever it may be) and the overall problem of finance? There can be no doubt that the great growth of this enormous organisation, with all its power, has brought problems, with maybe even bigger problems around the corner, which

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the B.B.C. and the Government of the day will have to face.
One of the problems I see is this so-called gap between public opinion, between viewers and listeners, and the B.B.C. and the Government, and whether or not it will become wider. Whether we get commercial local wireless or not— which has been referred to in many speeches to-day—we have to realise that, for good or ill, the B.B.C. is a growing power of entertainment and education. It is now so powerful, penetrating almost every home in the land, that one often asks oneself whether in fact it is in some respects becoming more powerful than Government. Can the relationship between Ministers, the Government, the B.B.C. and the I.T.V. be left as it is, or are we going to see big changes coming in the future? I believe that this problem will have to be solved, and if the gap between the public, the Government, the B.B.C. and I.T.V. becomes too wide, I do not rule it out as a possibility that the Government may have to consider whether there should be local area boards and a central council, elected by popular vote, to whom the B.B.C. regional and central organisations will be responsible. I put this forward as a matter which has been mooted in various directions.
The problems of this organisation, as everybody realises, are enormous. The problems of violence, sex and crime are worrying many people. But they are here, and we cannot blink the fact. There is a tug of war on, for instance, "The World at One" between those who see the hand of the establishment and those who suspect the permissive society. Who in the future, with the growth of this great medium, is going to hold the balance? Have we the right machinery and the right method of doing it at the present time? In my opinion, public opinion is going to take a hand in this as never before. For this reason, with the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, I hope that this debate will bear some fruit.
7.2 p.m.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, at this late hour I will not detain your Lordships for long, because, as the noble Lord who has just sat down said, most of the points that are to be made have already been made. I should like to emphasise three points only which in my opinion have not come out clearly and which I
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think ought to be brought out. The first is that we have had, instead of consensus, confusion; and this confusion will have to be cleared up. I believe that a Royal Commission should be appointed, with rather wide powers, to consider whether the decision-making machinery of the B.B.C. ought not to be now separated, radio from television. When the B.B.C. structure was created, obviously there was no idea that it would develop as it has developed, and I am certain that an expert Commission ought to look into this situation to see whether the communication organisation is in fact standing up to the present requirements.
It is obvious that in this debate the confusion has come out, and I fear that my noble friend Lady Llewelyn-Davies, despite her valiant efforts, has not been able to clear up these matters. It is partly due to the fact that the Corporation's policy has changed as a result of certain pressures, and partly due to the fact of what one commentator called the specialisation of language—an expression which reminds me of a famous dictum (I think by Churchill) of a "terminological inexactitude". I know that my noble friends are all extremely, if not over-assiduously, mindful—attentive if not anxious—on behalf of bureaucracy. Nevertheless, I earnestly ask them that they should consider the possibility of appointing an expert Royal Commission —if such is possible—to go into these matters, and especially to see whether the radio ought not now to be separated from television.
My second point is that the growing tendency of the Corporation seems to have been to adjust the supply of all four channels to demand, however it was estimated. I humbly submit to your Lordships that demand is not always right. Some supply ought to be adjusted to demand—in fact, most supply. But should all supply be adjusted to demand? Should there not be a frontier of advance in taste and knowledge? Should not what my noble friends Lady Stocks and Lord Ritchie-Calder called attention to, a sort of infiltration., play some part? I remember that during the war many people who did not know Beethoven from an apple attended concerts, yet in the end they wanted more Beethoven, as one had springing up all sorts of orchestras and other institutions.

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It is most interesting that we have had lately several debates, both in this House and in the other place, about the secondary social consequences of supplying demand in the cheapest way. It is called pollution. When you supply demand in the cheapest way, without any attention to what happens socially, that causes the devaluation of the environment which we have been witnessing. I am not saying that the Corporation is necessarily wrong —I do not know. But I should like to be assured by more than letters to The Times. It seems to me that if there is to be an investigation, that investigation should not be on a cost-efficiency basis, but on a cost-culture basis.
Before sitting down 1 should like to make one other more general point. The British political genius which has contributed so much of the social engineering structure to modern States has evolved a system of putting certain jobs into Commission. The Lord High Treasurer was put into Commission, and the Lord High Admiral was put into Commission. The overly powerful subjects were reduced by putting them into Commission. I fear that since the late-lamented Lord Morrison mistook the best organisation of public activity, and entrusted it to irresponsible, or at any rate unaccountable, Boards, we have had various experiences which do not bear out his optimism. We have created power centres which are more and more concentrated, and especially so because the Corporations have only very few full-time members, and sometimes only one who has then to transmit decisions to a chief executive, whom he appoints and who is accountable only to him.
The late Lord Morrison made several mistakes, and this was probably the most important mistake of all. He entrusted the supply of various things, such as steel, culture and coal to these Boards. I think the tendency of the British economy to function less than perfectly is to some extent attributable to the fact that these very great, powerful Corporations have no immediate watch-dog. I humbly submit to the powers-that-be that they ought to consider the formation of a Joint Committee of the Lords and the Commons which could have a valid dialogue, fortified by experts from these various Corporations, of which the B.B.C. is only one. It seems to me that what
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has come out of this debate is that these corporate structures can be improved, and should be improved.
7.11 p.m.
LORD BETHELL: My Lords, I have a particular interest in the subject of to-day's debate since I was on the staff of sound radio until late 1967, and many of the people who have been protesting in recent months about the proposed changes in B.B.C. radio are my ex-colleagues and my friends. A number of noble Lords who have spoken to-day have been surprised and perhaps rather put out by what they feel is an over-reaction by these 130-odd producers and senior programme makers who have pro-tested about what is to happen. It would seem that the merits of the issue about which changes are right and which are wrong are really debatable. There is no clear right or wrong about whether there should be generic planning or non-generic planning. Is it possible for anyone to say with such vehemence that this is the right choice to make, and that is the wrong?
I should like at the beginning of my remarks to give some idea of what I feel is the reason behind the strong and vehement reaction that has come to Broadcasting House in the past few weeks. I think it boils down to a complete breakdown in communications between the programme makers and the administrators—the directors who run the British Broadcasting Corporation. Sir Hugh Greene rather over-stated the case in a letter when he said that he and his fellow Governors were being called "bloody liars" by his staff. There is something in this. The staff are not calling the Governors "bloody liars", but they are mistrustful of the Governors and the Board of Management. They feel that they look at the function of B.B.C. radio broadcasting from two different points of view. They feel that there may be a dichotomy between the administrator, whose job it is to forward politically the purposes and merits and the aims of broadcasting, and the programme maker, whose job it is, in a rather narrower sense, to produce the best programmes possible by his own subjective judgment. That is where the confusion arises. There is also a feeling among many producers that the B.B.C. management has been badly shaken by

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the events of the past weeks and has in a sense been thrown into confusion. They find this very worrying.
I should like to give a few examples. One rather important point concerns the matter of consultation, which is another vital complaint. Yesterday I talked to a senior member of the B.B.C. who was empowered to speak for the management, and he told me that there had been full consultation with the staff since Broadcasting in the 'Seventies appeared last July. He said that in his and the Corporation's view consultation had been carried out in a proper way and there were no real regrets about the way it had been done. He felt that it had been carried out in a correct and sufficient manner. Against this I have heard from another member of the B.B.C., and also privately from producers who have been told by senior members of the B.B.C, that they conceded that their management made certain errors last autumn, that their communications broke down and that they did not get their points of view across to the staff. There was not sufficient consultation, and they admitted that an error was made. If the management are prepared to make this admission, it seems to me important that they should say so publicly, and not say in public what they are denying in private. I will leave that and hope that the B.B.C. management will read these words and either reject what I have said or accept it.
As certain noble Lords have said to-day, it is true that the service as planned will on the face of it be no worse than the Third Programme material which is put out at the moment. There will be little reduction in Third Programme type material when the new schedules come into operation in April. It is also con-ceded by all members of the staff at the B.B.C.—or almost all of them—that the merits of the issue of whether the programme should be reshuffled under the present scheme are thoroughly debatable. Some have one view and some another, and there is no clear decision about which is right and which is wrong. The problem stems from the lack of trust that now exists between the staff and the management.
What happens when the new schedules have been in operation for a few weeks or months, when the fuss, which is now on the front pages of newspapers and is
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receiving the attention of Parliament, has died down? It is very unusual for a subject such as sound broadcasting to be debated so widely in Parliament and the Press, and this will not continue; it will soon die down. It may also happen that the injection of Third Programme-type material into the new Radio Three and the new Radio Four will have a bad effect on audience figures. The management do not admit that this objection will have a bad effect on audience figures, but it could have such an effect. What will happen then? It is very easy, by a purely administrative decision, to reduce the amount of Third Programme-type material which will be broadcast—very gradually, by "salami" tactics. One could reduce the number of hours of Third Programme-type material on Radio Three from 8 hours to 7½ hours, and I doubt if such a decision would merit even a small paragraph in the newspapers. That is the fear which many programme makers have at the moment, in their present state of mistrust of their bosses.
I should like to say a few words about this Third Programme which we have been debating with some heat this afternoon, and why it is important, because there are some noble Lords who do not feel that it is as important as some would like to make cut. The Third Programme is particularly important because it is the only possible place for unknown talent to emerge. An unknown dramatist or composer will have great difficulty in placing his work outside the B.B.C. Third Programme. If an unknown dramatist sends a play to a theatre manager it will probably not even be read. If he sends it to television it may be read, but it very seldom happens that a piece of drama or a piece of music sent out of the blue is accepted. The B.B.C. radio, and the Third Programme in particular, is the only organisation I am aware of which gives a fair hearing and fair consideration to new and unknown works of music and drama which are sent to it. A large number of talented writers and composers started their creative careers through the Third Programme. I could mention the well-known names of the pre-war and war-time era, Dylan Thomas, Louis Macneice.
The noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, mentioned the "talks" element in the Third Programme, which is very important. In

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drama there are now very well-known playwrights who started their career through the Third Programme: Pinter, Samuel Beckett, Ionescu. The works of these authors were performed on the Third Programme when their names were not known at all. Tom Stoppard, whose play is now running at the National Theatre, had his play accepted originally by the Third Programme. One might with justification assume that, had it not been for the Third Programme, many of those people would not have achieved the success they have. And I hope no one here would deny that, if the Third Programme output were ended (I am not so much worried about the name of the Third Programme, but if the actual programmes were brought to a halt for any reason), or were reduced to the extent that its service was brought in only on sufferance, then our cultural life would suffer immeasurably. I should like to think that there is something the Government could do about this.
Of course there is very little that the Government could do about the actual content of programmes, but there is something they can do on a completely different matter which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, in his opening speech. I refer to the matter of money. I do not know whether noble Lords are aware of the conditions under which sound radio producers work at the moment. I am sure that much of their discontent stems from these conditions. They have to record and produce plays and documentaries in studios which were equipped twenty-five years ago; they have to use equipment which is war-time, just post-war, or even pre-war. For their sound effects they have to use gramophone records of 78 r.p.m., records which are almost all prewar. That type of gramophone record is not even made any more. I am told that the move away from 78 r.p.m. gramophone records for sound effects is being made now, belatedly, only because no factory in this country can be found to renew them.
A few days ago I was speaking to a producer who told me that he had just spent a whole afternoon working on a tape which he had recorded, using a sound effects disc which was so bad that it was full of clicks. He had to snip out these clicks one by one from the tape with a pair of scissors and it had taken hours
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to do. He felt that he could have spent his time in some better way. At the same time, these producers have to find writers who will contribute to their programmes, and I can assure your Lordships that it is not easy to find writers who will contribute at the kind of fees the B.B.C. sound services are able to afford at the moment. They are very low in comparison with television, journalism, and almost any other medium.
This straitened state of radio finances is in contrast to the state of television finances in the B.B.C. and in the I.T.A. While television has been quite properly asked to make important technical advances, and has had money pumped into it to further important technical ends, such as the change in the number of lines from 405 to 625 and more recently and more importantly the change to colour, radio has had its technical advance severely curtailed by lack of funds. I am here referring particularly to the introduction of stereo broadcasting, which is probably the only important technical improvement which can be brought into radio, as we know radio at the moment, and which has been developed very slowly indeed, in spite of the fact that its development is a much cheaper undertaking than the introduction of any technical improvement in television. I am told that there is very little prospect at the moment—there is a quotation in Broadcasting in the 'Seventies to this effect—of stereo broadcasting being extended to cover the main networks that the B.B.C. put out, and very little chance of its being extended to cover the bulk of this country.
The noble Baroness, Lady Llewelyn-Davies, in her speech earlier this afternoon, in answering the point of the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, said something which Government spokesmen say very often: that of course they are always being asked for money and it is their job to choose whom they give money to; no one is ever satisfied; the choice is a choice which Government have to make and really one cannot complain if one's own pet project is not chosen. I do not think this is quite good enough, and I will say why. Many of the technical changes which the B.B.C. have brought in in recent years, and which have cost the B.B.C. huge sums of money, were ordered or agreed to by the Government

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beforehand. The B.B.C. was promised, either by a formal pledge or by an understanding, that it would receive proper finance for these improvements. On at least two occasions these promises have not been fulfilled, and it is here that the Government—I do not mean necessarily the present Government, because on one occasion the matter concerned the past Government—have been particularly guilty.
I appreciate that any Government are in difficulty over any matter concerning the B.B.C. because on one day one wants the Government to intervene to improve certain things one may disagree with about the B.B.C.; on another occasion one may resent very strongly interference by the Government in the independent B.B.C, which is keen to preserve its independence. Most of us accept that the B.B.C. must remain independent and must not be subject to too much interference, let alone censorship, by the Government of the day. But, whatever happens, the Government have a responsibility to preserve standards of broadcasting. I am hoping that the Government will remember that they have this responsibility, and that, if things should take a turn for the bad in the next few months, they will use the powers they have. These powers are the appointment of governors, the control of licence fees and the renewal of the B.B.C. Charter.
I hope that the Government will give very serious consideration to the proposal suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, that there should be some kind of an inquiry into the whole realm of our future broadcasting policy. Are we on the right track in this matter? There are many people, and perhaps the bulk of the B.B.C.s staff, who feel that we are not on the right track, that the Government should take a further look at the situation, and that if Parliament is to make decisions and to consult, it is as well that it should have the best possible advice. To get the best possible advice a Royal Commission would seem to be a good idea. Therefore, I hope that the Government will consider what they can do in this situation and that they will not allow the erosion and the debasement of our broadcasting service, which many of us feel is not only the best in the world but also the cheapest.
7.30 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I must first apologise to some noble Lords — the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester and my noble friend Lord Ardwick—that I was not able to hear their speeches. It was partly due to pressure from the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, knowing that I had engagements, that I broke the rule which I always try to apply, that if one is winding up or opening a debate one should try to hear every speech, or at least part of it. One of the ill-results of this was that 1 missed a maiden speech which, from all accounts, was quite outstanding.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
LORD SHACKLETON: It is extremely difficult to recognise somebody when he disguises himself under even an appropriate name, which it certainly is in the case of my noble friend Lord Ardwick. I have admired him, as John Beavan, and he is, in my view, one of the greatest journalists. I say that having particularly in mind his London column in the Guardian. And he has not disappointed your Lordships this afternoon in the quality and interest of his speech.
My Lords, I approached this debate with a rather sinking heart. I was appalled at the conflict that appeared to be breaking out between producers and the management of the B.B.C. It was something I personally felt very deeply. Rather like the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, although he is a good deal more recent, I am a former sound producer from the B.B.C, from the great days before the war, when among our talks producers were people like Guy Burgess. I cannot even remember what the programmes were called—whether they were the national or the regional or what they were. But one thing I do remember, and I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord O'Neill, is not here, because when he referred to the importance of the B.B.C.'s being independent of Government I remembered that when I was a talks producer in Northern Ireland the Northern Ireland Government actually protested about certain programmes which were characterised as disloyal In fact one of the troubles was that a Roman Catholic took part in them. But I realised that to-day, under the influence of the noble Lord, Lord O'Neill, and others, things there are improving.

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Having heard the debate I have come to the conclusion that in fact it is a good thing not only that there has been this debate but that the whole controversy has taken place. I think the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, can feel that what we have done to-day is to provide a forum for discussion in which a great deal of independent view has been expressed. I have in mind particularly the really notable speeches of the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, and the noble Lord, Lord Annan, which put so much of this controversy into perspective. I do not share the views of those who say (and I have in mind my noble friend Lord Balogh, who made an interesting speech) that this should now lead to a high-level Government inquiry. If we believe in participation, if we believe in public con-troversy—and this has been conducted in a uniquely public way—then there is a moral to be drawn from this. The moral is that we have to live with it and not immediately start rushing around and trying to find out from Government, or anywhere else, what is wrong. There may be quite a lot wrong—I am not dealing with that—but it should be possible to discuss these things so that at the end of the day we all benefit from it.
When I hear the cry of lack of consultation I remember some of my own experiences in the field of consultation in industry, in which it was always those who were most consulted (and sometimes for the first time) who invariably complained of a complete lack of consultation. We find as a Government that whenever we give the Opposition some information which they never gave us they always complain that we have not given them enough. On the other hand, it is obvious that what has been said has led to a clearing of the air. From the Government point of view it would be wrong for us to pass judgment on many of the issues. Of one thing, however, I am convinced; and that is the complete sincerity of the main parties in this argument, whether it be the B.B.C. management, the Governors or the producers who have been critical. There is no doubt that what comes through is a great deal of sincerity. What I find a little disturbing is the extent of some of the unfairness, and indeed some of the ignorance of the facts.
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I am a little surprised at The Times. I interrupted the noble Earl, Lord Bess-borough, when he referred to the very interesting comparison of the programmes that appeared in The Times to-day. It says:
"during the whole of this period of discussion many arguments have been frustrated by the lack of any full programme schedules.… To-day, for the first time anywhere, The Times publishes full schedules for a sample period."
But of course, the reason the schedules had not been published before is that none of the newspapers actually took up the information that the B.B.C. issued in a hand-out. There were sample programmes, admittedly only for the evening, and they were published in the Listener. In such controversies it is always disturbing to see either unfairness or ignorance of the facts. In this morning's issue of The Times there were published the schedules of Radio 3 programmes for three days in April last year and for the corresponding three days this year. It is a fact that this information could have been given earlier in the public Press, but they chose not to do it.
It is curious, too, that The Times, if it really wanted to be fair, did not publish comparable information about Radio 4, because the case put forward by the B.B.C. has always been that some of the high-quality speech content of the Third Programme would be moved to Radio 4. The most significant defect is that it really makes no sense, as I think my noble friend Lord Strabolgi and others have said, to draw conclusions from a comparison of a particular period of three days in one year with another. One could produce some extraordinary evidence about the vast increase in the amount of poetry that is going to be put out. This is the aspect of the controversy that I regret most.
My Lords, generally I believe that this controversy has served a useful purpose. Although it is not for me to adopt a partisan position in this matter I feel bound to draw attention to certain of the facts because some quite extraordinary assumptions have been made about the destruction of the high quality for which the B.B.C. is famous. I think it should be remembered that the B.B.C. has always been under criticism. I remember that before the war, in Reithian days, it was constantly under criticism for one thing

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or another, such as the dullness of the Sunday programmes, and, of course, occasionally for intellectual arrogance. I will admit to the charge. There are certain programmes—some very curious second-rate poetry and music programmes—that I confess I put on to satisfy myself; I am rather ashamed, but I had the opportunity and I did it. I used to have special readings of The Rose and the Ring at nine o'clock in the morning because I liked The Rose and the Ring. In passing, may I say that the greatest crime which has been committed by the B.B.C., a crime which I know my noble friend Lord Llewelyn-Davies feels equally, is the fact that "The Clangers" are coming to an end on television, and any noble Lord who has seen "The Clangers" will know that this is the finest expression of television. Noble Lords who have not seen it will not appreciate it, and now they will not have the chance unless the B.B.C. bring it back.
In Broadcasting in the 'Seventies, the B.B.C. said—and either they are "bloody liars" or they are not, to use the words that have been referred to—
"The B.B.C. unhesitatingly accept, arising from the fact that they are a public service, that this implies a responsibility to provide a comprehensive service meeting the needs of minorities as well as majorities."
It may be that there have been straws in the wind, tendencies, which make people doubtful. They go on:
"We are offering a service which will cater for at least as broad a range of listeners as at present, spanning the generations and the cultures."
I am inclined to think that if there was back-sliding on the part of the B.B.C.— and there are undoubtedly a number of people who are convinced that this is so, although as my noble friend Lord Goodman made clear, this accusation is anything but proven—the B.B.C. management would not get away with it now. I should have thought that their willingness to consult—as an example, the consultation with the Arts Council—had shown very clearly that they are immensely susceptible to influence and to opinion. The rather striking thing is the really severe lack of interest on the part of the general public at large. It is only the most interested—I hesitate to say it —élite who have been most concerned about this.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, can my noble friend give any evidence of the extraordinary statement that nobody but a very tiny minority have taken an interest? I do not think there is any evidence for that.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, one of the most striking things is that nobody has given any evidence in the other direction, but there is evidence in the shape of the mail that has come to the B.B.C. and elsewhere. I have not seen this. I have seen the correspondence in The Times. I have seen awfully little in the other newspapers. It may well be that my noble friend Lord Balogh, with his close touch with the public, perhaps much closer than mine, is able to say that my statement is inaccurate, but I am reasonably certain that it is accurate. I do not know that many noble Lords who have taken part and have studied this would challenge it.
But that is not the major point. The point of real importance is whether the B.B.C. is doing something, or attempting to do something, that it ought not to do. The chief argument has revolved around the Third Programme. A number of people see the Third Programme as exemplifying excellence in broadcasting. They see what they call its demise as an act of philistinism, and they see it, too, rather startlingly, as a departure from Reithian principle. But of course Lord Reith loathed the Third Programme, condemned it and in fact called it a disaster. We run into slight difficulties with this sort of thing. There are noble Lords who criticise the Third Programme. But the question is a very technical one. I should have thought that the evidence given—I will give some figures—is that for the most part the kind of programmes that are going to be put out, whether in terms of music or literature, discussion or poetry or art or whatever it is, are likely to be of the same order one way and another as now.
The really important point, which has not I think been stressed enough in the debate, is whether the new type of scheduling is going to introduce a rigidity which will impose an undesirable discipline upon the producer. That is the important point. Those of us who have experienced it know the unsatisfactory way in which one has sometimes had to fit a particular programme which one thinks

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important into a programme schedule and will be aware that a further rigidity would be bad for broadcasting. It is not, I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, that I do not think the B.B.C. will continue to provide some of these long programmes he has spoken about, and I would ask him equally for evidence of that. Some of them go on half way through the night, where in any case scheduling does not arise. It is where the scheduling becomes too tightly organised, with the result that certain programmes are put in in a way in which they suffer, that I think is the important point. It is one of the accusations of the critics, and I have no doubt that the B.B.C. will take this very much into account.
I think enough noble Lords have spoken about whether we should doubt the Governors' intentions. In the past the criticism of the Governors always was that they exercised no real influence over the management. Now they are criticised—without any real evidence—of exercising too much. I would like to pay tribute again to the noble Lord, Lord Hill, for the patience with which he has sat here. I do not propose at this moment to start discussing the Addison Rules which are the rules of the House. It is up to noble Lords if they wish to alter those rules. But I can say there are powerful arguments for them and I could have seen difficulty if the noble Lord, Lord Hill, had had, so to speak, to reply to the debate. I can only say that I think he has not had too bad a time of it today, and we admire his patience and his willingness to listen to criticism. I must say that in the past we never regarded him as a very silent individual, but he now gives an image of strong silence. Certainly I feel that some unworthy things have been said about him —not in this House.
Let us look at some of the figures that are available. We are told that there will be more music on the new Radio 3 than there is at present on the Third Programme, and that the spoken word content of the Third Programme displaced by this additional music will largely find its place in the new Radio 4. Instead of the present 25 hours on sound there will now be 24. What we are really saying—and this is I think what the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, and others
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were saying—is that we really have no confidence in the constitutional frame-work within which the B.B.C. has been operating for several decades. I do not propose to pursue further an argument with the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, in regard to my late friend, Herbert Morrison, and the policy that he followed. But of one thing I am certain: the importance of preserving both radio programmes and television programmes from direct Government or Parliamentary interference. We can discuss them. We can take the opportunity we have had in this debate. I do not doubt that this debate will be studied with enormous care. In fact, I sometimes think that the only people who read Hansard are those who do not belong to the House of Lords. I find that outsiders have read and closely studied the speeches. I have no doubt that this debate will be very closely studied.
One important theme raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wade, related to regional broadcasting. First of all, as we know, the three national regions will remain. It has been said that an ability to speak with a separate and different voice from that of London will be much reduced. Let us face it: despite the quality and the commitment of their predecessors, the existing English regions are geographically pretty meaningless.
I sometimes listen to broadcasts in a region extending from Land's End to Brighton, from the Midlands, an enormous area, and from the Northern region. What is now proposed is not only local stations. I will not go into the technicalities, but many of us have been strongly in favour of real local broadcasting, related to the community and serving that community in a meaningful way. Not only will those stations continue, but there is now to be a different type of area which will produce programmes relevant to the particular area. The existing regions are essentially of an engineer's construction, but regional production of television and radio for the national networks is to be increased. This will provide for an increase in production away from London.
It is interesting that the three main network production centres will produce as much as they are now contributing to the networks. In total there will be eight

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English regional T.V. areas, instead of the three present ones.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that it would be a good thing to make the sound radio system correspond to the T.V. system, in having eight networks?
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, of course I cannot express a definite opinion on any technical questions of that kind. I do not doubt that everything the noble Lord has said will be noted. I am merely meeting the important point that the noble Lord, Lord Wade, made. It may be that there is some answer, but in what I have said I can only give the facts as I have been able to obtain them. In addition, there is to be provided an experimental budget to enable regions to do experimental broadcasting, or at least to plan it and then if it is good enough, it will be broadcast.
Within this large structure it is most important to get the right sort of administrative arrangements. I feel that it is absolute folly to talk about "the interests of freedom" for producers, which I regard as of paramount importance. In my day every producer found that the talks executive was the enemy because he would never provide enough money to enable the producer to obtain the speaker he wanted to put on. But it makes sense if the management experts look at the organisation. If their recommendations are destructive of good broadcasting, it is not necessary to accept them. There has been criticism of the B.B.C. from some people who claim that it is too large and too bureaucratic; yet when the B.B.C. has tried to investigate and to bring in management experts it is again accused of being bureaucratic. I think it is only right that this sort of inquiry should take place. I will not comment further on whether management consultants are effective or not. I think if I may put it in this way, that we have all had experience of them. Certainly many of them have rendered good service.
My Lords, I do not want to prolong this discussion much further. I do not propose to answer at length the noble Lord, Lord Denham. The affection we all hold for him is sometimes weakened by, as the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, said, this ghastly idea of commercial sound radio. I feel that the Tory Party
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in opposition commit themselves to the most horrifying projects. I have many reasons for not wanting to see a Tory Government again; but certainly cue of the worst things they could do would be to inflict commercial sound radio on us. It is a million times worse than any of the criticisms that have been levelled in this present debate at the freedom of producers, and so on. What would happen if there were to be commercial sound radio? What would happen to the local newspapers in the face of every inquiry recommending against this? Yet the Conservative Party go on. Even their Leader in another place uttered some rather cryptic remarks, which I do not altogether understand but which seemed to suggest that the role of the B.B.C. was to cater for minorities. I must not quote him, but I think noble Lords will have taken the point.
On the financial side, let me say this. The revenue of the B.B.C. has increased to £95 million. It has more than doubled in the last few years. The Government have taken active steps, which their predecessors did not take, to reduce the amount of evasion. In 1966, there were over 2 million evaders. The number is down to-day to slightly more than 1 million, and revenue has increased. I will not list the measures the Government have taken in this matter. Noble Lords should remember that there have been big campaigns, and there has been striking action to encourage people to pay up. A sort of accelerator has been created in the shape of the new colour television licence which should greatly increase revenue.
I accept what noble Lords have said and, because I have said it often, I am bound to say that Governments (this is a discreet phrase) are apt to be a little cowardly on the subject of licence fees. But there are arguments in favour of a certain financial discipline. I was going to return to the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, but he seems to have gone—I do not know whether he heard some of the earlier speeches.
I think I have answered some of the main points. I am conscious that a number of most interesting points have been made by noble Lords, but I do not think that they are of necessity, or even particularly, for the Government to answer. Certainly they will be carefully

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studied. Certainly they will influence Government thinking, in so far as it is right for Government to take a view on these matters—and, like any other citizen, we are bound to have a view. There will be a public inquiry into the B.B.C. —I think it will have to take place by 1976. The previous Government rightly decided that there should be a period, under the new dispensation which they set up, in which these great organisations, whether they are commercial radio or B.B.C. television, should be allowed to run with a reasonable prospect of stability. They are not going to be subjected to a major investigation. Therefore, speaking personally (I cannot be certain as to what the Government may do if the pressure grows) I should greatly regret any form of a public inquiry now.
The controversy has gone on. I think it has been valuable. The new programmes will be introduced. They have already been heavily modified as a result of consultation, adequate or inadequate as it may have been. It has been made clear, as my noble friend Lady Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe said, that if, after a fair trial—say twelve months—the new scheme is not thought to be working well, then the B.B.C. intends to think again about it; and it will of course listen to criticism and make the necessary adjustments. I hope and believe this to be so, because I am sure that B.B.C. producers, as a whole, are dedicated and committed people to their medium—indeed they would not have fought this controversy as strongly as they have done if they were not so. But I believe that they will now be able to make great sense out of the B.B.C. proposals. If they cannot, then of course it is always possible to think again. And I hope that it will be in this spirit that we shall now proceed to watch the introduction of the new programmes.
8.1 p.m.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, first of all I should like to associate myself with the noble Lord the Leader of the House in what he said about his regrettable absence during the brilliant maiden speech, as I hear it described, of the noble Lord, Lord Ardwick, and the speech of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester. I likewise was
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absent for, I am afraid, an inescapable reason. Otherwise I should have greatly enjoyed the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Ardwick, which I hear was quite exceptional in every way.
In making just a few observations—I promise for not more than five minutes— at the end of this debate, which has been extremely interesting and also. I think, extremely profitable, I should like to give your Lordships my own impressions of the debate. The first is that I think there was a general impression among your Lordships that there is something rotten, if not in the state of the B.B.C, at any rate in the state of the relationship between the leadership and a great part of the staff. I hope and believe that, as a result of all the discussion on the Floor of this House, this will be made better in the months to come.
The second impression I have is that perhaps some of the difficulty with the staff was a result of employing a business efficiency firm. I quite understand the desirability of employing that firm for certain business reasons, but I think that quite a number of your Lordships feel, in common with me, that it is wrong in principle to apply business efficiency principles in the realm of culture as a whole. I think that a great many people, and a great many of your Lordships, would agree with that, and I hope the B.B.C. will take that moral to heart.
The third impression I have is that there is widespread apprehension—at any rate in this House and, I think, in certain sections of the country—lest the present Radio 3 should be whittled down, and all resemblance to the old Third Programme should, over the course of the next year or two, virtually disappear.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I wonder whether I might interrupt the noble Lord at this point? It is courteous of him to give way. My interruption is really to enable me to deal with the point which the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, asked me to produce evidence on. Of the 26 million people who listen to radio each week, under 250 have written to the Ministry of Posts and Telecommunications, and under 1,000 to the B.B.C.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, I doubt whether that affects my general point. In relation to the point about the possible weakening of the Third Programme, or Radio 3 in the years to come, may I say that I recognise that the noble Lord the Leader of the House, himself an expert on the subject, has said that he has certain fears about whether the effect of streaming may not have a limiting and restricting effect, particularly, I should have thought, on the present Radio 3. That is a point I made in my speech. I am very glad that the noble Lord the Leader of the House appreciated it, and I hope that the B.B.C. itself will take this possibility into consideration when they are planning their programmes for the future.
The fourth impression I have is one of the enormous weight, if I may properly so describe it, of the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, in these affairs. He has only to throw it in one direction or the other and everybody succumbs. Apparently it was he who immediately took up the cudgels on behalf of the orchestra, and the B.B.C, in spite of the vast cost involved, immediately gave way. For all I know it may well have been he who induced them to increase the amount of talk on Radio 3 from that originally proposed in Broadcasting in the 'Seventies. I hope he did. I think it only remains for him, as he indicated perhaps in his own speech, to throw his weight increasingly on behalf of the "writers" as he called them—to which I suppose he would also add the unknown dramatists, and even perhaps the under-paid young dons who might figure on the programme—and see that they get more of a showing than is now likely to be the case, and that the programme over the months is perhaps expanded accordingly. I hope he will.
The next impression I have is that there was a considerable feeling among many of your Lordships that the moment has now come when there should be some kind of independent investigation into the affairs of the B.B.C. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, is very much against that. Your Lordships heard what he said. However, I believe that there are a number of really outstanding points of principle, the first of which is the possibility of separating the administration of sound radio from television. Many noble Lords have put that for-
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ward as a real possibility and a desirable thing to aim at. If that is so, it gives rise to immense possibilities, and therefore I should have thought that not only should it have been discussed inside the B.B.C. itself, but is a matter which Parliament should have a view on. The second point is the whole question of money, of financing; whether it is indeed right to depend entirely on the licence fee and, if so. whether it should be put up by, for instance, another 5s., and whether it really would be a disaster for many old people. After all, many old people cannot afford the present fee. There are always some people who will be hit by any increase. Costs have gone up so enormously over the last few years because of inflation that the fee is bound to go up a little even to keen where we are. In fact, broadcasting will go right back unless it is put up some-how. But if that is not desirable, then surely other ways of raising the money can be considered. That might be a matter for a Select Committee.
Finally, there is the whole question of regions, how they should be organised. Surely that: is a matter for independent organisation. I believe that the conception of the Third Programme really should be committed to a Joint Select Committee of both Houses. That is my suggestion: it has not been accepted. I realise that perhaps eventually the Government will come round to it; let us hope they will. In the meantime, I trust that this debate has not been in any way counter-productive. No terrible things have been said; no one has been unjustly impeached or condemned. No doubt everybody has acted from the best of motives, and one can only hope that the B.B.C., under its present Chairman, will go from strength to strenth. My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

INSOLVENCY SERVICES (ACCOUNTING AND INVESTMENT) BILL
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendment agreed to.
House adjourned at nine minutes past eight o'clock.