Sitting of 8 April 1970

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  STOKE-ON-TRENT CORPORATION BILL
    TOR BAY HARBOUR BILL
    Considered; to be read the Third time.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  DEFENCE

    Military Aircraft (Disclosure of Information)
    Mr. Martenasked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement outlining the extent to which the manufacturers of military aircraft are free to disclose information about those aircraft to the Press; and what action is taken against those firms which reveal information which is subject to security restrictions.
    The Minister of Defence for Equipment (Mr. John Morris): United Kingdom manufacturers of military aircraft are prohibited from disclosing information without the consent of the contracting authority. The action which would be taken against a firm for disclosing information without such authorisation would have to be considered in the light of all the circumstances.
    Mr. Marten: Is it not true that the management of Panavia, being in full possession of all the details on the M.R.C.A., then gave information on costs to the Press based on that knowledge? If the House cannot, partly for security
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    reasons, be given the facts on the costs, is it not time that we seriously looked at the Panavia leak in terms of the Official Secrets Act?
    Mr. Morris: We have canvassed this matter on a number of occasions. The statement made by the manager of Panavia is quite a different matter and one for which I have no direct responsibility.
    Mr. Robert Howarth: Is the procedure on this any different from what it always has been, or is there something special because of the nature of this project?
    Mr. Morris: The arrangements are the normal ones made in every collaborative project.
    Mr. Onslow: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) does not seek to raise it on the Adjournment, I shall seek to do so.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Notice must be given in the conventional form.

    Conscription
    Mr. Martenasked the Secretary of State for Defence to what extent the Government keep under review plans for reintroducing conscription.
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Secretary of State for Defence what study he is making of contingency plans involving the reintroduction of conscription.
    The Minister of Defence for Adminitration (Mr. Roy Hattersley): None. As I said during the defence debate on 5th March, I have no doubt that with concentrated effort we can expand our recruiting to meet all the obligations that this Government accept.—[Vol. 797, c. 650–2.]
    Mr. Marten: Is it not a grave dereliction of duty not at least to keep it under review? Will the Minister confirm, whatever he thinks about that, that if it was in the national interest to reintroduce conscription the Labour Government would not hesitate to do so?
    Mr. Hattersley: The Labour Government have never hesitated to do what

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    was in the national interest, but the Labour Government take the view that realistic commitments can be met by a voluntary professional Army.
    Mr. Dalyell: However strenuously the Opposition may seek to deny it, is it not a fact that the obligations which the Opposition say that they would undertake mean, whether we like it or not, that a degree of selective conscription at any rate would have to be introduced?
    Mr. Hattersley: I think that that is the only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from the figures. Were they to get the opportunity, it would be up to the Opposition to decide whether to abandon their policy or to introduce conscription.
    Mr. Rippon: Are the Government aware that the policy of Her Majesty's Opposition is exactly the same as that of the Government in this respect? We do not envisage that our present policies would involve the introduction of conscription.
    Mr. Hattersley: The policies that the right hon. and learned Gentleman outlines in terms of conscription or voluntary service are the same, but the policies that he advocates in terms of obligations are very different; and he has yet to convince the House and the country that those obligations can be met with voluntary service.

    Service Pensions
    Sir E. Erringtonasked the Secretary of State for Defence (1) when he will publish a new pensions warrant for Service personnel following the increased pay scales for serving officers and men;
    (2) what are his proposed amendments to the terminal grants to officers and men on retirement in view of the increased Service pay scales; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Hattersley: I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd) on 26th March, 1970.—[Vol. 798, c. 526.]
    Sir E. Errington: Is consideration being given in the preparation of the new pensions code to the position of widows, particularly those widowed before 50? Does the Minister realise that it is vastly
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    important from a recruiting point of view that these matters should be fairly dealt with?
    Mr. Hattersley: I dealt at length with the position of such widows in the Adjournment debate a month ago. I can only repeat that we understand the difficulties that such widows face, but the idea of backdating the new pensions scheme in the way the Question implies is very difficult and complex.

    Recruitment
    Sir G. Nabarroasked the Secretary of State for Defence if he is aware that the shortfall of trained strength below requirement, at 1st April, 1969, was for the Royal Navy and Royal Marines, 1,600, the Army, 6,000, and the Royal Air Force, 2300, totalling 9,900; if he will now give the corresponding figures of shortfall at 1st April, 1970; and what steps he is taking, without resort to conscription, to prevent further deterioration in recruitment for all three Services.
    Mr. Hattersley: Firm figures for 1st April, 1970, are not yet available.
    The estimated shortfall of trained strength below requirement at that date is approximately 3,200 for the Royal Navy and Royal Marines, 4,600 for the Army and 3,200 for the Royal Air Force, totalling 11,000. These figures reflect the disappointingly low level of recruiting in 1968–69. There was, however, an improvement of 20 per cent. overall in the recruitment of male other ranks last year.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Can the hon. Gentleman assure the House that the shortage in personnel of 9,900 on 1st April, 1969 and the shortage of approximately 11,000 on 1st April, 1970 both refer to a total establishment for the Armed Forces of the same aggregate figure—or do they relate to different figures?
    Mr. Hattersley: What the hon. Gentleman brings out by referring to the levels of establishment against the shortfalls is the fact that acceptance of extra obligations imposes extra strains on the Armed Services, a point which I have been trying to make in supplementary answers arising on other Questions.
    Mr. Brooks: Does my hon. Friend realise that, while both Front Benches show a remarkable opposition to any

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    thoughts of reintroducing conscription, at least some of us are much alarmed at the implications of the situation in which we have a very low nuclear threshold now in Western Europe, which could put this country in severe danger?
    Mr. Hattersley: That does not arise directly on this Question, but I assure my hon. Friend that the fears which he expresses are contrary to the changing policies of N.A.T.O., about which my right hon. Friend has spoken on several occasions in the past few months.
    Mr. Ramsden: Will the hon. Gentleman now give a sensible and factual answer to a question which was asked to elicit information and not in a partisan spirit? Will he tell the House what he was asked; namely, whether the establishment against which the shortfalls were calculated in the two years is the same, and what figure it is?
    Mr. Hattersley: In the first part of my answer I made that clear. The establishments have changed. The point I made on the shortfall figure is that the changed establishment is a function of the obligations which one expects the forces to undertake. The greater the obligations, the greater the implied establishment, and, therefore, the greater the chance of a shortfall.
    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Defence what was the total net recruitment to the Armed Forces in 1969; and what further plans he has to improve recruitment in 1970.
    Mr. Hattersley: The number of recruits joining the Services in 1969 was 33,887. The net number of recruits is not assessed separately since wastage affects the strength of the Services at all stages of engagements.
    On the second part of the Question relating to plans to improve recruitment, I refer the hon. Member to my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin) and the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Lane) on 4th March.—[Vol. 792, c. 390–1.]
    Mr. Edward M. Taylor: Why cannot the Minister give us the figures of net recruitment? This is a simple exercise of counting the number of people who join the forces and the number who have left for various reasons.
    Mr. Hattersley: The hon. Gentleman seems to think that the figure of net recruitment can be obtained by a simple arithmetic device, but it is a great deal more complicated than he suggests. Having regard to the recruitment changes from time to time and the short-term engagements introduced from time to time, which have been remarkably successful over the last few years, the net engagement figure has no meaning whatever.
    Mr. Leslie Huckfield: To help hon. Members opposite with the increased recruitment that their policies would involve and to assist them to try to put a cost on some of their lavish plans for increased defence expenditure, will my hon. Friend confirm that a conscripted Army is cheaper than a volunteer Army?
    Mr. Hattersley: I do not think that is a reasonable assumption to draw from the alternative as between a conscripted and a voluntarily-recruited Army. The real conclusion to draw from the parallel is that we have made no contingency plans for such a conscripted Army because with our policies it would not be necessary.
    Mr. Rippon: Does not the Minister accept that the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) was right when he said that all this talk about conscription by the party opposite is a political gimmick?
    Mr. Hattersley: One of the things that make me doubt that judgment is that whenever the word is mentioned the right hon. Gentleman leaps to his feet with obvious embarrassment to deny it.

    Gurkha Establishment
    Sir G. Nabarroasked the Secretary of State for Defence what is the present Gurkha establishment, its present strength, and on what date it is proposed to reduce it to 6,000; and, having regard to the continuing decline in British Army recruiting, whether he will now re-open negotiations for the Gurkha establishment to be revised from a future 6,000 to a future 12,000 men.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Army (Mr. Ivor Richard): The present Gurkha establishment is six Infantry battalions and one regiment each of signals, engineers and transport. Its

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    present strength is just under 10,000, and that will be reduced by about 2,000 a year to a figure of 6,000 by 31st December, 1971. As regards the last part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the written reply by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence for Administration to a similar Question on 30th January.—[Vol. 794, c. 405–6.]
    Sir G. Nabarro: Is it not calamitous to continue the policy to reduce these Gurkha regiments at a time when our own recruiting is meeting with such a dismal response in spite of all the Government's efforts, and could not the Gurkha policy now be reconsidered in the light of contemporary United Kingdom recruiting conditions?
    Mr. Richard: There are two parts to the hon. Gentleman's question. First, as regards what he claims to be deficiencies in the Government's recruiting policy—[Interruption.] I hope that the hon. Gentleman will listen to the answer, since he asked the question. He will know that recruiting is about 20 per cent. better this year than at the comparable date last year. To the second part of his question—namely, should not we now review the size of the Gurkha regiments in the light of those recruiting figures?—the answer is. No, Sir.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Why not?
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: But does not the hon. Gentleman agree that there is an increasing rôle which the Gurkhas can play, that there is ability to recruit more Gurkhas should it be necessary, and that we could easily maintain a strength of 10,000 Gurkha soldiers? Have they not a rôle not only in Hong Kong and the Far East but also, perhaps, in the European theatre?
    Mr. Richard: The hon. Gentleman knows that it is the Government's opinion that for the rôles foreseen for the Gurkhas in the period till the end of 1971 a figure of 6,000 is appropriate.
    Sir G. Nabarro: On a point of order——
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Sir Gerald Nabarro.
    Sir G. Nabarro: In view of the unsatisfactory replies to Questions Nos. 7 and 8, on recruiting matters, including the Gurkha regiments, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Notice should be given in the conventional form.

    British Forces, Cyprus (Pay)
    Mr. Ridsdaleasked the Secretary of State for Defence what action he is taking to bring the pay of British forces in the United Nations force in Cyprus more into line with that of other foreign contingents.
    Mr. Hattersley: I have nothing to add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence to the hon. Member's supplementary question on 25th February.—[Vol. 796, c. 1206.]
    Mr. Ridsdale: Has not the hon. Gentleman read the article in the Daily Mirror headed,
    "The Scandal of Britain's poverty-stricken Tommies"?
    Will he stop being so backward-looking, as the Secretary of State was in the reply to me to which the hon. Gentleman referred, and will he do something about it?
    Mr. Hattersley: I have read the article in the Daily Mirror, though I did not agree with all its conclusions. The basic conclusion to which my right hon. Friend and I come is that British soldiers serving in different sectors should receive pay calculated on the same basis, and I am sure that that is right.
    Mr. Ridsdale: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall continue to try to raise this subject on the Adjournment.

    Ulster Defence Regiment
    Mr. McNamaraasked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a further statement on recruitment for the Ulster Defence Regiment and the disbanding of the Ulster B Specials.
    Mr. Hattersley: As at 3rd April, 5,393 applications to enrol in the Ulster Defence Regiment had been received. So far, 1,800 applicants had been enrolled

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    and a further 1,001 had been accepted for enrolment. As regards the disbanding of the Ulster B Specials, I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply to his Question on 4th March.—[Vol. 797, c. 401–2.]
    Mr. McNamara: Is my hon. Friend satisfied that we are securing the proper balance in the force which was indicated in the debate when the regiment was first introduced? Second, is he aware that many people support some of the statements which he made in Ulster about the desire and need to maintain a well-balanced force of this nature?
    Mr. Hattersley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he said in the second part of his supplementary question. We are obtaining Catholic recruitment—the point which my hon. Friend has in mind, I think—at about 20 per cent., which is better than I expected and, therefore, a great deal better than some of my hon. Friends feared. How-ever, 20 per cent. is not an ideal figure. I hope that more Catholics will come forward to join the regiment, and I hope that the leaders of the Catholic community will continue to encourage them to do so.
    Mr. Chichester-Clark: Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied with the speed or rate of enrolment as opposed to the speed of recruitment?
    Mr. Hattersley: The distinction between speed of recruitment and speed of enrolment involves the processes through which each applicant must go between offering himself for service in the regiment and being accepted. The period between the two is almost entirely taken up by security vetting and the medical check. I am sure that these processes are vital and that we should not skimp them.

    Troops, Northern Ireland
    Mr. McNamaraasked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the number of troops at present stationed in Northern Ireland, indicating their main duties in internal security operations.
    Mr. Kenneth Lewisasked the Secretary of State for Defence what is the
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    number of troops in Northern Ireland; and what increases or reductions there have been in establishment there since September 1969.
    Mr. Hattersley: The number of Regular Army uniformed personnel now serving in Northern Ireland is about 7,000. In October, 1969 the garrison was increased by one major unit. Since then three major units have been withdrawn without relief. Recently, however, the garrison has been reinforced with one major unit to provide an additional element of continuity during the coming weeks in which three other units are due to be relieved. The main internal security duties of the Army include crowd control, the manning of road blocks, conducting cordon and search and anti-arms-running operations, and the carrying out of border patrols and mobile patrols in both urban and rural areas.
    Mr. McNamara: Does my hon. Friend realise that the majority of people in England admire the way in which the British Army is behaving and acting in Northern Ireland, and is he aware that we look forward to the time when there will no longer be any need for the British Army to be there, but while there it has the full support of people in this country?
    Mr. Hattersley: I am grateful for all those points.
    Sir Knox Cunningham: First, as regards the number of applicants for the Ulster Defence Regiment which assists the military, can the hon. Gentleman say how many have been refused? Second, can he confirm that there will be no withdrawal of troops from Northern Ireland so long as there is any danger of violence from Republican rebels?
    Mr. Hattersley: The last point was dealt with very clearly yesterday, and it would be impertinence on my part if I were to attempt to confirm the categorical statements made in the House by the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary. The position is now beyond argument and dispute.
    As regards the number of men who have been refused membership of the U.D.R., I cannot give the precise figure without notice, but I can tell the hon. and learned Gentleman that any refusals have arisen because of the professional

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    checks by either the security service or the medical service. When there has been refusal, it has been for that reason.

    N.A.T.O. Defence Ministers
    Mr. John Fraserasked the Secretary of State for Defence when he next proposes to attend a meeting of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Defence Ministers.
    The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Denis Healey): I shall be going to the meeting of the Defence Planning Committee of N.A.T.O. which is planned for early June.
    Mr. Fraser: When my right hon. Friend attends that meeting will he raise the question of Greece and what steps N.A.T.O. can take to restore democracy there, because it was the N.A.T.O. strategic plan "Pericles" which was used in Athens to overthrow the democratic régime?
    Mr. Healey: I cannot at all accept the implications in the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question. I must remind him, however, that I shall be attending the meeting of the Defence Planning Committee of the N.A.T.O. Council, and the job of N.A.T.O. is to ensure that a war does not break out in Europe. I am not prepared to take any steps at that meeting which would make the outbreak of war more likely.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Is the Secretary of State aware that reports are appearing in the national Press today of his recent speech to N.A.T.O.? Will he place a copy in the Library, as that speech appears to show that he feels that we are desperately vulnerable because of a shortage of conventional troops, and therefore desperately dependent on nuclear weapons for any form of retaliation?
    Mr. Healey: I suspect that the hon. Gentleman is referring to a broadcast I made on Tuesday on the Radio 4 programme of the British Broadcasting Corporation. I will certainly ensure that he is able to read it, and confirm that the views I expressed were those which were supported by his right hon. Friend the Opposition spokesman on defence during our last defence debate.

    N.A.T.O. (Greek Officers)
    Mr. John Fraserasked the Secretary of State for Defence whether Greek military officers accredited to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation have the same access to classified information from British sources which is made available to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation as other accredited officers.
    Mr. Healey: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Fraser: Is it not a disgraceful state of affairs that military officers of a régime that has usurped power in what was previously a democratic country should have access to British military secrets which is denied to Members of the House?
    Mr. Healey: No, Sir. I cannot agree with my hon. Friend, because no officers accredited to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation from whatever country have access to classified information from British sources unless it is necessary to them in the performance of their rôle as members of an organisation whose function is to prevent a war in Europe.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Will the Government resist any of these somewhat snide attempts to get rid of Greece from N.A.T.O., which might well be disastrous for the defence of Europe, of which the right hon. Gentleman has just spoken?

    British and French Nuclear Forces (Integration)
    Mr. Brooksasked the Secretary of State for Defence what proposals he has for an international agreement on the integration of the British and French nuclear forces within the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
    Mr. Healey: None, Sir.
    Mr. Brooks: Is my right hon. Friend aware that his consistent stress upon the case for the use of nuclear weapons for the defence of Western Europe must lead many of us to suppose that he envisages this deterrent remaining credible in the 'seventies even in the event of an American fall-back from Europe? Does he, therefore, envisage at any stage an Anglo-French entente emerging on lines that have been suggested?
    Mr. Healey: One must accept the French position on the relationship

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    between France and N.A.T.O. as stated and defined by the French Government, and for a British statesman or Minister to make proposals for the integration of French nuclear forces into N.A.T.O. would not only be futile but might even appear offensive to one of our allies.
    Mr. Wingfield Digby: Has the Secretary of State ever discussed this question with the American authorities?
    Mr. Healey: No, Sir.

    Enriched Uranium
    Mr. Brooksasked the Secretary of State for Defence whether he proposes to continue to obtain the total enriched uranium requirement for Great Britain's nuclear armament from gas diffusion plant.
    Mr. John Morris: No, Sir. The assessment made in 1963 that supplies of fissile material already available or assured would be sufficient to meet all defence requirements for the foreseeable future is still valid. Production of U235 for military purposes at Capenhurst Gas Diffusion Plant ceased in 1963, and there are no current plans to resume this production.
    Mr. Brooks: Will not my hon. Friend agree that if this new and very exciting technology, which many of us welcome as an expression of European collaboration in the peaceful uses of atomic energy, were to prove very successful economically in relation to the old technology, it could precipitate a very new and grave turn of events in the European and worldwide nuclear arms race?
    Mr. Morris: My hon. Friend will be aware that the agreement we have reached with two other countries is a civil agreement and not a matter for the Ministry of Defence?

    Far East (Foreign Exchange Costs)
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewingasked the Secretary of State for Defence how much of the foreign exchange costs shown as £61 million gross in Annex H of Command Paper No. 4290 in respect of the Far East is attributable to each of the following, namely, Hong Kong, Gan, defence of remaining dependencies, exercises, general capability and the Beira Patrol, respectively.
    Mr. Healey: Hong Kong £11 million, Gan nil, exercises £¾ million, Beira Patrol £30,000. The remaining £49 million is local defence expenditure of forces stationed in the Far East in fulfilment of our treaty and other obligations.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, though we shall have to examine the figures, it seems very surprising that the Beira Patrol, which employs a total of six destroyers—two on their way there, two on their way back and two on patrol—should cost £30,000 a year; and that that figure makes us suspicious that all the figures are as erroneous as others that have been given in this House?
    Mr. Healey: With respect, I think that the offensiveness of the hon. Gentleman's remarks is due to a familiar confusion in his mind between the foreign exchange costs of a particular operation and its resource costs in the defence budget.
    Mr. Rippon: Does the Secretary of State recall that last year he told the House that defence costs could be reached by multiplying the foreign exchange costs by three? How, then, if existing forces east of Suez cost £50 million gross in foreign exchange, does he ever arrive at a figure of Conservative policy costing £300 million?
    Mr. Healey: With respect, I never said that the resource cost was three times the foreign exchange cost in all cases. I said that it was only in the case of infantry battalions. There is a very big difference between the amount that people on ships of the Beira Patrol can spend and the amount that can be spent by an infantry battalion which goes every night into Singapore.

    United States Military Aircraft
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewingasked the Secretary of State for Defence what sums have been allocated in each of the next five financial years for the payment of interest and repayment of the loans made by the United States of America to the United Kingdom for the purchase of United States military aircraft.
    Mr. John Morris: The following sums have been allocated: 1970–71—£55 million; l971–72—£56 million; 1972–73—£55 million; 1973–74—£50 million, and 1974–75—£41 million.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: Is the Minister aware that I am most grateful that the country should know just what it has cost in American dollars to cancel a British aircraft and buy American aircraft; and how wise it is to leave it to the next Government to clear up the mess that is left?
    Mr. Morris: The hon. Gentleman is equally aware that when this issue of the financing of the aircraft that we require was debated in the House, neither he nor any of his colleagues voted against the Measure.
    Mr. Robert Howarth: Can my hon. Friend confirm that the original decision to order American aircraft was taken by members of the Opposition?
    Mr. Morris: Yes, Sir, for some of the Phantoms.
    Sir Ian Orr-Ewing: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the inaccurate reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Portsmouth Dockyard (Productivity Talks)
    Mr. Juddasked the Secretary of State for Defence whether he will make a statement on the resumption of productivity talks in Portsmouth Dockyard.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Royal Navy (Dr. David Owen): This matter was discussed at a meeting of the Shipbuilding Trades Joint Council on 20th March, and the trade union side has recommended its local representatives to resume talks with the management.
    Mr. Judd: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Will he confirm that the Government are committed to significant pay increases as soon as the problem can be overcome? Does he agree that the men's doubts are related to anxiety about the long-awaited Prices and Incomes Board Report on the pay of industrial civil servants; and will he do everything possible to speed publication of the report, and consequent action on it?
    Dr. Owen: My hon. Friend should make the distinction between a productivity agreement and negotiations on basic
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    rates. His Question relates to productivity agreements, and there is no reason why meaningful discussions should not commence as soon as possible.

    Portsmouth Dockyard (Outside Contract Work)
    Mr. Juddasked the Secretary of State for Defence what was the total value of work put out to private contractors by Portsmouth Dockyard in the last financial year.
    Dr. David Owen: The total value of work put out to civilian contract at Portsmouth Dockyard during the financial year 1968–69 was approximately £550,000.
    Mr. Judd: I thank my hon. Friend for his reply. Does he appreciate that when there is so much evidence of spare capacity, and so many men are still on waiting time, the men in the dockyards simply do not understand why outside contracts should be arranged to the amount he has just quoted?
    Dr. Owen: That amount must be set against a total of £92 million worth of work in the dockyards, so that it is a very small percentage. It is necessary only because of a shortage of labour in certain trades, or because the dockyard does not possess specialist resources in labour, material or facilities. We aim to reduce the amount of outside work to the minimum.

    Naval Forces East of Suez
    Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for Defence how many white ensign ships and Royal Fleet Auxiliaries are now east of Suez; and what is the total cost to the Defence Estimates.
    Dr. David Owen: It is not the practice to disclose details of the area deployment of H.M. ships and Royal Fleet Auxiliaries. The running cost of ships and their local shore support east of Suez in 1970–71 is expected to be of the order of £40 million.
    Mr. Wall: Is that figure based on the Defence Estimates, or on the slice method by which his right hon. Friend sought to cost the Opposition's defence policy?
    Dr. Owen: It is based on the Defence Estimates.
    Mr. Leslie Huckfield: Will my hon. Friend say what would be the cost of the Opposition's plans for defence east of Suez?
    Dr. Owen: In the specific context of the Navy, I would need time to answer that, but we have estimated anything between £200 million and £300 million overall.

    Royal Supply School, Chatham
    Mr. Burdenasked the Secretary of State for Defence what was the total cost of moving the Royal Supply School from H.M.S. "Ceres" at Weatherby to H.M.S. "Pembroke" in 1959; and what is the estimated cost of providing the required facilities when the school is transferred to Portland.
    Dr. David Owen: £25,000 and £1·5 million respectively. The intended move is not, however, to Portland but to H.M.S. "Excellent" at Portsmouth, and we would have to spend at least £1 million if the school were to be kept at Chatham.
    Mr. Burden: Why is this increased expenditure necessary when the school is only 10 years old? What extra facilities will be provided as a result of the move and of the increased expenditure?
    Dr. Owen: The £0·5 million relates only to capital cost. This is part of a comprehensive long-term plan to achieve economies in naval shore training, and economies will be achieved mainly in reduced maintenance and reduced personnel.
    Mr. Burdenasked the Secretary of State for Defence if it is the intention to transfer the staff of about 450 now employed in the Royal Supply School, Chatham, when the school is moved to Portland.
    Dr. David Owen: The naval instructors and students of the Supply and Secretarial School—which is only one of the establishments at H.M.S. "Pembroke"—should be transferred to Portsmouth in the late 1970s. Currently these number about 400.
    Mr. Burden: Will redundancies eventually occur as the result of the move, and will those who have to move receive a full removal allowance and housing accommodation at their new base?
    Dr. Owen: In reply to the latter part of the supplementary question, the normal arrangements will apply. This is a move for the late 1970s, and it is impossible to give a categoric assurance. The normal practice is to try to achieve this by natural wastage, and this has been achieved in most cases in the past.

    British Honduras (Defence Arrangements)
    Mr. Chichester-Clarkasked the Secretary of State for Defence if he is satisfied that adequate arrangements exist for the defence of British Honduras; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Healey: We have made it clear on a number of occasions that we shall honour our commitments to our dependencies. I am perfectly satisfied that adequate arrangements exist for the defence of British Honduras should the need arise.
    Mr. Chichester-Clark: Bearing in mind the vulnerability of British Honduras to any hostile neighbour in the event of independence, will the Secretary of State say what contingency planning has been done?
    Mr. Healey: The question of defence arrangements following independence will be a matter for any constitutional discussions which may take place.

    Boy Soldiers
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Defence how many of the 11,000 boys, aged between 15 and 18 years, who joined the Armed Forces last year left within the permitted preliminary period; and if he will now ask the Donaldson Committee to expedite its proceedings and recommendations regarding boy soldiers.
    Mr. Hattersley: Of the 11,000 boys, aged between 15 and 18 years, who joined the Armed Forces in 1969, about 1,400 had exercised their option to purchase their discharge by the end of 1969. It is estimated that a further 400 of these boys will purchase their discharge during the remaining period of the options expiring on 30th June, 1970. I am confident that the Donaldson Committee is fully aware of the need to report to me as soon as it has completed its study of this complex question.
    Mr. Allaun: Is it right that the remainder, many of whom may later change their minds, should be held, possibly against their will, for 12 years in the forces, and that the forces should depend so heavily on these boys, who provide one in three of all recruits?
    Mr. Hattersley: Some of the implications of my hon. Friend's question are things which we should like to change and remedy, but I do not want to comment on his supplementary question until the Donaldson Committee has reported.
    Mr. Lubbock: Do not the figures which have been given indicate that since the permitted period was raised from three months to six months there has been an increase in the number of boys opting out? Is it not, therefore, logical to draw the conclusion that if these boys were given the option at the age of 18, many Servicemen who are unwillingly retained in the Services for 12 years would not remain, and the morale of the remainder would thereby be improved?
    Mr. Hattersley: It is certainly reasonable to draw the conclusion that the more options for withdrawal that are offered to the Services the more options are likely to be taken up. A further conclusion can be drawn from the figures which have been given, that rather more boys have the opportunity of withdrawal from the forces than is sometimes suggested in the House. In fact, most boys who are deeply disturbed by their experience in the forces leave the forces, and the figures which I have given today substantiate that.

    Aircraft Carriers "Hermes" and "Ark Royal"
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Secretary of State for Defence what proposals he now has for the use of the aircraft carriers "Hermes" and "Ark Royal".
    Mr. Healey: No decision has yet been taken about the future of these ships after their fixed-wing flying task has been completed.
    Mr. Dalyell: Is any serious thought being given to the possibility of the civilian use of these fine ships, either for floating industrial exhibitions or for educational purposes, after they have come to the end of their military life?
    Mr. Healey: Every possibility is being explored, but this is not one of the higher priorities.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Is the Secretary of State saying that he has no plans after 18 months for the use of the "Ark Royal", on which he has just spent £32 million of the taxpayers' money?
    Mr. Healey: Nobody would have been more forward than the right hon. Gentleman if I had not made provision for the protection of the final withdrawal of our forces from the Gulf and the Far East. I hope that nobody in the House will grudge money spent to secure that that withdrawal takes place in conditions of security for the men concerned.
    Mr. Wallasked the Secretary of State for Defence why the appointment of a full-time public relations officer for H.M.S. "Ark Royal" has been cancelled.
    Dr. David Owen: The complements of sea-going H.M. ships do not include fulltime public relations officers. No fulltime P.R.O. appointment to "Ark Royal" has been made or cancelled. As an initial step one officer for public relations is being appointed to the sea-going Fleet generally.
    Mr. Wall: Is it not a fact that publicity about aircraft carriers has been deliberately played down, and would the Minister congratulate those in the "Ark Royal" who had the initiative to display a large banner over its stern the other day entitled "Fly Navy"?
    Dr. Owen: In reply to the last part of the question, I have been away but I gather that that was on H.M.S. "Eagle". As to the question of deliberate reduction in the public relations effort, the situation is to the contrary. The fact is that we are now appointing a public relations officer for the seagoing Fleet where one has never existed before.
    Sir A. V. Harvey: Would it not be convenient if the Prime Minister were to lend to the Navy a public relations officer from 10 Downing Street, where there seems to be a surplus?

    Forces Overseas (Members' Visits)
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Defence on what

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    basis hon. Members are selected by his Department to visit British Forces overseas; and what steps are taken to ensure that all such Members are enabled to carry out the full programme planned for them, in view of the incidents which occurred on a visit to Her Majesty's Forces in Cyprus by Members in September, 1965.
    Mr. Healey: The answer to the first part of the Question is that Members of groups on parliamentary visits to the British Forces in overseas commands are selected under arrangements made through the usual channels. As regards the second part, I can assure my hon. Friend that all commands have in the past done their utmost to ensure that the planned programmes are carried out in full, and will, of course, continue to do so in the future.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does my right hon. Friend recall that on the occasion of the visit mentioned in the Question an hon. Gentleman opposite took the car of a commanding officer without permission and used it for his own private purposes, and that that hon. Member is now writing a book or pamphlet for the Tory Central Office on law and order, with particular reference to malicious trespass? Will my right hon. Friend undertake to read that pamphlet, which has clearly been written by a person of authority on the matter?
    Mr. Healey: In reply to the second part of the supplementary question, I cannot in all conscience undertake to read the pamphlet. In reply to the first part of the supplementary question, I think the House will agree that I am not responsible for the behaviour of hon. Members overseas or inside the House.
    Sir G. Nabarro: But what the right hon. Gentleman is responsible for is his own Department. Can he give the House an assurance that there will be no repetition in Cyprus of the deprivation of Servicemen of their votes in the forthcoming General Election? When hon. Members visit Cyprus, will those deprived electors in the Armed Forces have absolute access to hon. Members, including myself, without let or hindrance from the right hon. Gentleman?
    Mr. Healey: The hon. Member is obviously excited about some personal experience.
    Sir G. Nabarro: No, indignant.
    Mr. Healey: If he will give me details of that experience, I will see if there is anything whatever that I ought to do or say about it.

    British Forces, Germany
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Defence if, following the official proposals of the United States Secretary of State on 17th March regarding United States troop withdrawals from Europe in 1971, he will make a statement about the size of future British force commitment in Germany.
    Mr. Healey: The United States Secretary of State has made no such proposals.
    Mr. Allaun: But did not the Secretary of State say that the United States would give serious consideration to reduction of its forces in Europe in 1971? May I ask my right hon. Friend for an undertaking that at least there will be no increase in British forces in Germany?
    Mr. Healey: No, I will not give that undertaking. I must point out to my hon. Friend and some of his sympathisers that it is no good on the one hand complaining about N.A.T.O.'s reliance on nuclear strategy and on the other hand insisting that we should reduce our conventional contribution to the alliance.
    Mr. Henig: Will not the Secretary of State also point out to our mutual hon. Friend that if, hypothetically, the United States were to withdraw part of her forces from Western Europe, and if Britain were to follow the policy he is advocating of withdrawing part of the Army of the Rhine, the logical follow-up would be a much larger German conventional army, which would become the largest army in Western Europe?
    Mr. Healey: This is certainly a factor but, if I might try to lower the temperature in which these questions are being asked, I am sure the whole House would agree that if there are to be reductions in the forces of N.A.T.O. in Europe, they should take place as part of a process of mutual force reduction which guarantees

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    the same security for both sides as they enjoy today. I am sure that it would be much better to devote our attention and concern to persuading the Warsaw Powers to participate in negotiations for this type of mutual force reduction.

    Nuclear Weapons Policy
    Mr. Raphael Tuckasked the Secretary of State for Defence whether it remains the policy of Her Majesty's Government that Great Britain will never be the first to use a nuclear weapon.
    Mr. Healey: The policy of Her Majesty's Government in relation to the use of nuclear weapons remains based on their obligations to N.A.T.O.
    Mr. Tuck: Does not my right hon. Friend remember that on 5th December, 1967, the Prime Minister, in answer to a Question by the late Mr. Emrys Hughes, admitted that Great Britain would never be the first to use the nuclear weapon? How does that tally with the statements in the recent Defence White Paper about the initial use of nuclear arms?
    Mr. Healey: I regret to say that my hon. Friend is totally misrepresenting the Prime Minister's reply to that Question by the late Mr. Emrys Hughes.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Is the Secretary of State saying that neither he nor his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister would be the first in certain circumstances to use the nuclear weapon if an invasion were to take place?
    Mr. Healey: I have always made it clear, as have all Governments, that if N.A.T.O. were faced with an overwhelming conventional invasion of Western Europe N.A.T.O. would have to use the nuclear weapon in the course of replying to it. This has always been the policy of N.A.T.O. ever since it was set up in 1949. I am glad to see that the newspaper which is published by the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament admits in the current number that there has been no recent change in the policy of the British Government or N.A.T.O. in this respect.

    Expenditure
    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Defence what was
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    the total expenditure of his Department in the United Kingdom in 1969; and what percentage of this total was spent in Scotland.
    Mr. John Morris: Figures are available only for financial years. In 1968–69 about 88 per cent. of the defence budget was spent in the United Kingdom. Of this proportion approximately 7 per cent. was spent in Scotland.
    Mr. Edward M. Taylor: Is this percentage not disturbingly low? Will the hon. Gentleman take steps to review his Navy building programme, observing that five years ago four shipyards in the Upper Clyde were building naval frigates whereas at present the figure is only one?
    Mr. Morris: I am sure the hon. Member knows that Scotland benefits generally from our development area policies. I hope he will tell the people of Scotland that if the Tories come to power they will wreck our development area policy. I am glad he has mentioned the naval programme. Of course, some of the development areas are able to produce certain articles on a much higher scale than others. As regards naval shipbuilding, the hon. Gentleman knows that the share which goes to Scotland is high.
    Mr. William Hamilton: Is my hon. Friend aware that if the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) had been here when we were debating the Navy Estimates, he would have heard me quote figures which gave a favourable impression of the contribution which my hon. Friend's Department is making to the progress of naval shipbuilding in Scottish yards?
    Mr. Morris: I cannot answer for the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor), whether he was here or not, but the figures of naval shipbuilding for 1966–67 show that almost 20 per cent. of our orders were placed in Scotland, in the following year they came down to less than 1 per cent., and in 1968–69 they went up to 64 per cent. The figures fluctuate because it depends on the number of orders actually placed in one year, but generally I have done my utmost to increase the share of our contracts placed in development areas. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman read my article only last week in the Glasgow Herald which sought to encourage Scottish

    541
    industry to avail itself of the opportunities.
    Mr. Gordon Campbell: While the Minister is mainly concerned with defence matters—and I recognise that he was in the Cairngorms only a few days ago—does he realise that he has completely misrepresented and is quite wrong about Conservative development policy, which will have the effect of bringing a great many more jobs to Scotland with the money now being spent?
    Mr. Morris: I know that the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends have a guilt complex as regards their plans to wreck our development area policy. They will have to answer for this at a General Election.
    Mr. Edward M. Taylor: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that answer, I shall seek leave to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    Military Equipment (Security)
    Mr. Henigasked the Secretary of State for Defence if he is satisfied that adequate measures are taken to ensure that details of sophisticated British military equipment like the Chieftain tanks, are not communicated to a potentially hostile country; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. John Morris: Yes, Sir. I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave to his supplementary question on the same subject on 4th February. Security aspects are carefully considered before information is made available to any country.—[Vol. 795, c. 425.]
    Mr. Henig: If this is so, would it not be highly dangerous for Britain to sell Chieftain tanks to Libya because, bearing in mind Libya's military involvement with the U.A.R. and the U.A.R.'s close military involvement with the Soviet Union, what would be the point of Britain developing the world's most advanced tank if full information about it immediately went to the Soviet Union?
    Mr. Morris: I can give a general assurance to my hon. Friend that we take full account of possible breaches of security by the transfer of any weapons system from one country to
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    another before a decision is taken at any stage.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Since the Israelis have helped to perfect this excellent tank, will the Government consider selling them a few?
    Mr. Morris: That is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary.
    Mr. Shinwell: Why cannot the Foreign Secretary come clean on this issue? He always answers Questions on this matter by talking about negotiations when we do not know the nature of those negotiations. Surely the best way to take full account of the situation, to use the hon. Gentleman's words, is to prevent Libya getting the tanks. Is he aware that there is a good deal of feeling in this House against provision of Chieftain tanks to Libya, and if the Government refuse to see the wisdom of this and provide these tanks to Libya, I will give them all the trouble I can.
    Mr. Morris: I am aware of the concern of my right hon. Friend on these issues, but surely this question arises purely and solely from the possible danger from the security point of view of the transfer of information from one country to another.

    Air Training Corps Cadet (Injury)
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will order an independent inquiry into the circumstances in which an Air Training Corps cadet, particulars of which have been sent him, was injured while attending a training course at Royal Air Force Station, Scampton, and into his subsequent treatment.
    Mr. Hattersley: No, Sir.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Are not many of the facts still in dispute? Did not the hon. Gentleman have to withdraw one departmental statement which was inaccurate? Is not he relying on the reports of those whose conduct may be in issue? Would it not restore confidence all round if he showed courage and submitted this matter to an independent inquiry?
    Mr. Hattersley: The right hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is in three parts. As for the reliance which I

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    place on reports, I place my reliance on the reports not only of Service medical officers but of National Health Service medical officers who are also involved in this case.
    As for the withdrawal of a statement, I was very careful in my supplementary statement, which I offered to the Press out of courtesy to the right hon. Gentleman, to make it clear that all that we hoped to do was clear up any misunderstandings that he believed to have arisen. I do not believe that any misunderstanding arose from the first statement. I am satisfied that the matter was dealt with properly.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter in full on the Adjournment.

    Training, Malaysia
    Mr. Goodhartasked the Secretary of State for Defence how many British troops will train in Malaysia according to his present plans; and what will be the estimated cost of that training.
    Mr. Hattersley: Under our present plans about 3,000 troops, including Royal Marines and the R.A.F. Regiment, will train annually at the Commonwealth Jungle Warfare Centre in Malaysia from 1971 onwards. The estimated annual running costs of the Commonwealth Jungle Warfare Centre will be about £1½ million to £¾ million, of which the United Kingdom share will be in proportion to our use of the centre.
    Mr. Goodhart: Will the Minister confirm that the number of units involved in training in the Jungle Warfare Centre amounts to two infantry battalions and 10 infantry companies a year?
    Mr. Hattersley: That is broadly correct, but it may vary from year to year.

    Germany (Offset Agreement)
    Mr. Goodhartasked the Secretary of State for Defence what items of British military equipment are being purchased by the Federal Government of Germany in order to offset the foreign currency costs of 6 Brigade when it returns to Germany.
    Mr. John Morris: The hon. Member may recall that it is not our practice to disclose information about arms sales.
    Mr. Goodhart: As the precise cost of this offset agreement involves military equipment, as the Germans know what they are buying, as N.A.T.O. knows what is being bought, and as Russia probably knows what is being bought, why cannot the House be told?
    Mr. Morris: The hon. Gentleman is familiar with our practice on particular items of arms purchased to which the Question refers. It has been the practice of successive Governments for many years.

    TAVR Uniforms
    Mr. Ridsdaleasked the Secretary of State for Defence why in certain cases the Territorial and Army Volunteer Reserve is unable to issue uniforms to new recruits.
    Mr. Richard: There have been certain production difficulties in regard to both No. 2 dress and combat clothing which have affected issues to the Regular Army and the Reserve Army. Urgent action has been taken with contractors to remedy this situation.
    Mr. Ridsdale: Is not this scandalous? Does not the Minister realise that when there is a shortage like this people begin to wonder what else the Government are trying to cover up? Is he not aware that this is why many hon. Members ask for a Select Committee on defence?
    Mr. Richard: It may or may not be scandalous, but the hon. Gentleman should know that the production difficulties are due to the failure of the contractors to meet their delivery dates and are not attributable to this Department.
    Mr. Crawshaw: Will my hon. Friend agree that this seems to indicate that it is a good job that we do not reach our recruitment figures?
    Mr. Richard: I do not agree, since, as I am sure my hon. Friend will realise, had the orders placed with the contractors been met, they would have been sufficient to cover all the recruits we were asking for.

  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Agricultural Workers
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, how many people are now working in agriculture.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John Mackie): There were 308,000 regular whole-time workers in agriculture, including horticulture, in the United Kingdom at June 1969.
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordon: Will the Minister indicate how his much-vaunted selective expansion programme for agriculture has not succeeded in arresting the decline in employment in the industry?
    Mr. Mackie: There is no indication that the fall in the labour force has had any effect on the expansion programme. This last year the drop in the number of workers is down compared with the year before.
    Mr. Godber: Will the hon. Gentleman explain the reason for the lamentable failure of the Government's expansion programme, which is lagging so far behind target?
    Mr. Mackie: I do not agree that it is lagging behind target, and I do not think that it has anything to do with the question of 308,000 regular whole-time workers.

    Food Prices
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the increase in food prices on a percentage basis each year for the last six years.
    Mr. Mackie: According to the Index of Retail Prices, the percentage increases over the previous year for each of the years 1963–1969 were 2·9, 3·5, 3·6, 2·5, 4·0 and 6·3.
    Mr. Wolrige-Gordon: Will the hon. Gentleman explain how the alarming increases in prices which have had to be accepted by the consuming public relate to the continuing embarrassment of the primary producers?
    Mr. Mackie: An increase in food prices of 21·5 per cent. compared with an earnings increase of 38 per cent. over the last five years does not give much weight to the hon. Gentleman's question.
    Mr. Orme: Can my hon. Friend give comparable figures of food prices in E.E.C. countries, which will probably show that our prices are very much below those of the countries that we are asked to join?
    Mr. Mackie: Not without notice, but I know what my hon. Friend means.
    Mr. Godber: Will the hon. Gentleman try to explain this extraordinary rake's progress of price increases and tell us how much is due to the Government's policies, including the taxation of food through S.E.T. and in other ways?
    Mr. Mackie: I presume that the right hon. Gentleman can still read and that he will have read the Reddaway Report, which shows that S.E.T. has had a negligible effect on food prices.

  BOARD OF TRADE

    Turnhouse Airport
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the President of the Board of Trade what further progress has been made in plans for improving terminal facilities at Turnhouse Airport, Edinburgh.
    The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. Goronwy Roberts): I regret that I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend's Question on 25th February.—[Vol. 796, c. 325–6.]
    Mr. Hamilton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is time that he had something to add? Nothing to nothing makes nothing. Is he aware that he will be subject to constant pressure until there are some visible signs that progress is being made to satisfy the staff and the passengers who have had to use this slum of an airport for far too long?
    Mr. Roberts: Progress is being made, as I told my hon. Friend when he last raised this matter. Improvements are being carried out at Turnhouse, and plans for new facilities have been prepared. These will be carried out as part of the development of the airport as a whole.
    Mrs. Ewing: As this airport is a vital link concerning Scottish economic development, is this not another chink in the Government's armour? Is it not time that they got on with improving the airport facilities?
    Mr. Roberts: The Government's attitude towards air services in Scotland shows no disregard for Scottish interests——
    Mrs. Ewing: It does. We want direct flights to Europe.
    Mr. Roberts: Scotland is well treated as regards the development of services in the Highlands and Islands.
    Mr. Dalyell: Is not the answer that it should be transferred as soon as possible to the British Airports Authority?
    Mr. Roberts: That is a separate question.
    Earl of Dalkeith: Who is responsible for the delays now taking place which are doing Scotland a great deal of damage?
    Mr. Roberts: There is no delay. Progress is being made on interim improvements at the airport. In addition, plans have been prepared for the improvement of the airport within the wider scheme which still remains to be adopted.
    Sir Knox Cunningham: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of those replies, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter again.

    Airport Strikes (Aircraft Safety)
    Mr. Gordon Campbellasked the President of the Board of Trade what consideration he has given to providing for the safety of passengers in aircraft which are airborne at the time when lightning strikes are announced, putting airports immediately out of action for landing purposes.
    Mr. Goronwy Roberts: Aircraft are required to carry sufficient fuel to provide a safe margin for contingencies arising from whatever cause. This margin is intended to enable them to divert to other aerodromes if their destination airport at home or abroad were to be closed at short notice.
    Mr. Campbell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I was in an aircraft in the
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    air last Friday on a short journey in Scotland when the pilot was informed at 15 minutes' notice of the lightning strikes at Scottish airports, and that it seemed only a matter of chance that one airport was open? Is the Minister entirely certain that when there is a combination of bad weather safety can always he assured?
    Mr. Roberts: I should certainly like details of the case that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned. Perhaps he will let me have them. I assume he was referring to the London/Inverness diversion, which I understand was conducted with complete safety and efficacy.
    Mr. Leslie Huckfield: Has my right hon. Friend any statistics for the kind of incident to which the hon. Gentleman referred?
    Mr. Roberts: Not without notice. Perhaps my hon. Friend will put down a Question.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
Mr. Henig: On a point of order. I apologise for not notifying you earlier Mr. Speaker, that I intended to raise this point of order. On a number of occasions during Question Time today Ministers have used the following formula in replying to Questions, "It is not our practice to disclose information."
I submit that it is the job of hon. Members to probe Government Departments for information of public interest and concern. Yet, whenever a Minister uses that formula, the Table Office takes it as justification for the rest of the Session to refuse to allow Questions on the subject. It is not unusal for a Minister continually over a period not to give the House the information required, but it surely ought not to prevent hon. Members continuing to probe and to learn from the way that refusals of information are given.
What action can you, Mr. Speaker, take to protect our right to ask Questions about major matters of public importance, even when Ministers have said that it is not their practice to disclose information?
Mr. Speaker: Order. This problem will occasionally arise on Questions about defence. It is for a Minister to decide whether he gives information publicly

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which he thinks might damage the security of the country. This has happened during all my time in Parliament. I do not think that it can be changed.
Mr. Michael Foot: Further to that point of order. My hon. Friend has raised a substantial point. Would you, Mr. Speaker, consider making a statement to the House later in the week on the matter? It appears, from what my hon. Friend said, that that form of reply by Ministers may prevent Questions being put at a later date and that this concerns the operation of the Table Office. Therefore, may I ask whether you will make a statement on the important matter that my hon. Friend has put to the House?
Mr. C. Pannell: Further to that point of order. Although a Minister can reply in any way that he likes, surely Mr. Speaker is the custodian of the Table Office on behalf of the Legislature. I do not think that the Table Office should be motivated in any way by the answers that Ministers give. I hope that you, Mr. Speaker, will accept that this is a substantial point on which the Legislature should supervene the Executive, at least in the right to ask a Question, whatever the Answer may be.
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: Further to that point of order. There is a point of substance here. When a Minister says that he cannot give information he may be quite justified. But it ought not to follow that the Table Office should refuse Questions on a particular point at a later stage. Is it possible for you, Mr. Speaker, to look into this matter and advise the House at a later date?
Mr. Speaker: I will certainly look into it. I ruled off the cuff on the specific case put to me. I imagine that the reason always why a Minister refuses to give information is sometimes because of day-to-day business in a nationalised industry and, secondly, because of security. But I will certainly look into the problem. It is not a light one.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Further to that point of order. Is not the point of sub-
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stance not the undisputed right of a Minister to refuse to answer, but the consequence that a similar Question or a Question in that category is not then accepted by the Table Office? Is it not within your recollection, Mr. Speaker, that this matter was recently submitted by some of us to the Select Committee on Procedure, which has just reported, so I am in order in referring to it?
As you, Mr. Speaker, gave evidence to that Select Committee, are you not aware that a recommendation was submitted, by at any rate one of us, in the precise terms of the submission by the hon. Member for Lancaster (Mr. Henig), but not, I regret, accepted by that Select Committee? Will not the matter, therefore, be likely to come before the House when we consider the Select Committee's Report?
Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. I have just had passed to me the Second Report of the Select Committee on Procedure. from which I quote one suggestion that the Committee had put to it:
"A further proposal was submitted to Your Committee that a Minister's refusal to answer a question should bar the tabling only of such questions as are precisely covered by the original question, and that the rejection of a class of questions as the result of one answer should no longer take place."
The Select Committee has considered this matter. Sooner or later the House will be considering the report in which this suggestion has been discussed and its views on it. I will certainly look into the matter.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: On that point of order, Sir. Until the House has discussed the Select Committee's Report, is not the power in the control of the Chair? Is it not possible now for the Chair to rule that the inability or the refusal of a Minister to answer does not mean that the Table Office must refuse any other Questions on the same theme?
Mr. Speaker: I have already undertaken to look into this matter and give it careful consideration.

GOVERNMENT OF SCOTLAND
3.35 p.m.
Mr. David Steel: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the better government of Scotland.
This is the fourth occasion in the lifetime of this Parliament that my Liberal colleagues and I have sought leave to introduce a Bill concerning the constitution of Scotland.
My hon. Friend the Member for Inverness (Mr. Russell Johnston) introduced a Government of Scotland Bill in 1966, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Liberal Party introduced a Federal Government Bill, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. James Davidson) introduced a Bill to provide for a referendum of the Scottish people.
The Bill I seek to introduce this afternoon is substantially based on the evidence which the Scottish Liberal Party has given to the Commission on the Constitution, evidence on which The Scotsman has commented in these terms:
"In style, as in content, the Scottish Liberal Party's pamphlet is perhaps the best offering yet made to the Crowther Commission. It is well written, clear and free from jargon. It provides evidence that Scotland is a nation, that it is misgoverned and that there is widespread dissatisfaction with the present system."
It is obvious in all parts of the House and by the setting up of the Crowther Commission that there is general concern in the country, particularly among politicians, about the growth in the power of government against the capacity of the elected representatives of the people to check that growth. What is a general proposition for the United Kingdom as a whole is more acutely seen in the government of Scotland, where the growth in administration and in the responsibilities of the Secretary of State for Scotland has led to a decreasingly responsible form of government in Scotland. Indeed, the very solution put forward by successive Conservative and Labour Governments to add to the powers of the Secretary of State for Scotland, and perhaps give him an occasional extra Under-Secretary, merely means that there is still more administration in Edinburgh without a proper capacity for controlling it.
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There is further considerable concern. I have noticed that on occasions English and Welsh Members, when the House sits late at night on the Report stage of a Scottish Bill, are somewhat reluctant to stay to pass votes on matters like the Sewerage (Scotland), Bill which went through the House in 1968. I hope, therefore, that they will be anxious to support my Measure.
Scotland has its distinct identity of law, Church, education, history and culture. In 1967, National Opinion Polls asked this question throughout Great Britain:
"Was the Government out of touch with people outside the London area?"
It was interesting to note the replies to this question. In the United Kingdom as a whole 45 per cent. answered "Yes" and 38 per cent. "No". In Scotland, the answer was 60 per cent. "Yes" and only 30 per cent. "No". The feeling of the Scottish people is, therefore, quite different from that of the other parts of the United Kingdom. Scotland is not just another region.
The Bill proposes to establish a Parliament in Scotland of 71 Members. Each existing parliamentary constituency would send one Member to Westminster and one to a Scottish Parliament. This Scottish Parliament would do three things. First, it would deal exclusively with all Scottish legislation. Secondly, it would establish control over a Scottish Executive or Government to deal with those matters already administered by St. Andrews House and further matters that we would propose to add to the present responsibilities of the Scottish Administration. Third, it would, as a body, be able to make representations to the Westminster Parliament for changes either in the Government of Scotland Act, or the Act of Union of 1707.
My party has been quite clear over many years that we wish to see a federal structure in Britain, and that remains our approach, but this present proposal avoids the need for protracted constitutional wrangling at the outset. We want to introduce immediately the first phase of this federalism, and, therefore, we propose that the Scottish Parliament should be given a block grant immediately of about

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£1,500 million—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The answer to the cries of surprise is that that is the present Government expenditure in Scotland. It represents 11 per cent. of the United Kingdom Government expenditure.
My Bill would also propose to establish a joint exchequer board between the Scottish Parliament and the Westminster Parliament to negotiate the transfer of the power of domestic taxation to the Government of Scotland. We believe that taxes such as S.E.T., however justified they may be in the London area, are complete nonsense, and against the interests of, for example, the Highlands of Scotland.
Sir Harmer Nicholls: They are not justified in London.
Mr. Steel: My Bill proposes to establish a political focus in Scotland, and also a constitutional forum. There are many able Scottish men and women at present unable to serve in this House of Commons who would be willing and available to serve in such a body in Scotland.
Finally, I submit that my proposal is in the mainstream of public opinion in Scotland. The Church of Scotland, in its evidence to the Crowther Commission, has already called for a Scottish Parliament for internal Scottish affairs. In May last year the Scottish Daily Express held an opinion poll in which it asked people whether they favoured home rule for Scotland. The answer was, "Yes", 48 per cent. and "No", 42 per cent. Those wanting home rule were asked, 'Do you want a totally independent Scotland?" The result was that 37 per cent. said "Yes", while 63 per cent. preferred a Scottish Parliament with control over domestic issues, which is what my Bill proposes.
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The latest sounding of public opinion, in a National Opinion Poll in December conducted for the Scottish Plebiscite Society, showed that 23 per cent. of the people wished an independent Scottish Parliament, 44 per cent. an internal Scottish Parliament such as we propose, and 23 per cent. were in favour of the status quo. Thus, I claim that my Bill would give expression to the sovereign wishes of the Scottish people.
The Labour Party, at its Scottish conference last week, defended the status quo, which is surprising for a body which has set up the Constitutional Commission. The Conservative Party has yet to decide whether to adopt the interesting proposals of the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) and his Committee, but even if it does it will not provide for any Scottish control over Scottish affairs, apart from some stages of legislation. The Scottish National Party advocates a minority policy, and while I as a Border Member would welcome further opportunities for employment in that area, Customs officers are not precisely what I have in mind.
The Bill would provide for an immediate, sensible reform of the government of Scotland and for machinery for Britain to advance towards a full federal structure.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. David Steel, Mr. Grimond, Mr. Russell Johnston, Mr. James Davidson, Mr. Alasdair Mackenzie, and Mr. Lubbock.

GOVERNMENT OF SCOTLAND
  GOVERNMENT OF SCOTLAND
  Bill to provide for the better government of Scotland, presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 19th June and to be printed. [Bill 137.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  COMMISSION FOR INDUSTRY AND MANPOWER BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.44 p.m.
  The First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity (Mrs. Barbara Castle): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The Bill sets up a new body—the Commission for Industry and Manpower—which will take over and develop the work of the Prices and Incomes Board and the Monopolies Commission. In doing so, it will strengthen the powers of public scrutiny not only over monopolies, but over the increasing concentration of market power in the hands of fewer and fewer firms. It will continue the vigilance of the Monopolies Commission in the field of mergers, while giving the Commission the opportunity, where the Government think it appropriate, to have a look retrospectively at how a merger has worked out in practice so that we can see whether the benefits anticipated have in fact been achieved.
  It provides for the disclosure, where desirable in the public interest, of fuller information about a company's accounts, as recommended by the Monopolies Commission. It continues the invaluable work of the Prices and Incomes Board in scrutinising archaic pay structures, inflationary pay settlements, and all forms of the inefficient use of labour, while abandoning the statutory control of incomes to which the Opposition objected so vociferously.
  In all this, the new body will be the ally of industry in protecting industrial users against discriminatory practices. It will be the stimulant of efficiency in both the public and private sectors, and the watchdog of the consumer against unjustified price increases. It will also rationalise the work of two bodies whose field of inquiry has tended increasingly to overlap—a rationalisation which has been recognised in objective quarters as an overdue, commonsense piece of streamlining.
  It would, therefore, appear that the purposes of the new body, are common
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  to all of us, and yet we have been warned that the Bill will be one of the most fiercely contested in the lifetime of this Parliament; that the Opposition will denounce it as a blow against industry, with the same fury as they once denounced the Industrial Expansion Act. I think that it is worth spending a little time examining why this should be so.
  The House has always been united, in words at any rate, in the view that society needs protection against the abuse of market power through monopoly practices. It was a Labour Government who introduced the first Monopolies Act in 1948, and since then the legislation has gone through various modifications. But, in fact, from the very beginning, there has been a marked difference of approach between the two sides of the House. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have always been, in theory, the party of "competition"—and the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) has been making great play with this theme recently in a series of "keynote" speeches to which we have been treated in the last few weeks.
  But, in fact, their attitude to concentrations of market power has always been "half-hearted and schizophrenic", to turn the right hon. Gentleman's own words of a year ago against him, because their instinct has always been to do too little too late.
  Of course, the Opposition are always telling us that they struck great blows for competition when they set up the Restrictive Practices Court and took measures which effectively ended resale price maintenance, and these measures certainly were of real value to consumers, but, as these abuses were eliminated, firms sought other ways of reducing the impact of competitive forces and of consolidating their market power.
  As the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East has himself admitted, competition is not the natural state of industry—it is not a miracle ingredient running through private enterprise, making all its transactions dazzlingly white. On the contrary, when one line of defence against competition is removed from industry, it promptly develops another.
  In saying that, I am not indulging in a piece of Socialist prejudice. The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East himself admitted it to the Financial Times

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  the other day, in an interview outlining Conservative policy towards industry and how life would be tougher under the Tories.
  Having begun by making the routine obeisance to the achievements of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act and the abolition of resale price maintenance, he went on:
  "Now some industries have retreated to more subtle operations, much harder to get at. Price leadership; very difficult to get at."
  Of course, he is right, and industry has adopted other devices, too, such as collusive tendering. When restrictive agreements had to be registered, we saw the emergnce of information agreements in their place—a development which we took power to control in our Restrictive Trades Practices Act, 1968. With the ending of resale price maintenance, a new practice has grown up among manufacturers of recommending resale prices, a practice which we are taking power to deal with in Clause 13 of the Bill, again as advocated by the Monopolies Commission. Again, the ending of restrictive agreements has undoubtedly stimulated the growth of mergers.
  The price of competition is eternal vigilance by the Government. I could not put it better than the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, North-East himself did in a recent speech:
  "Left to themselves, most businessmen would share the market and keep newcomers out. To maintain competition calls for determined, tireless Government action".
  Yet Her Majesty's Opposition intend to oppose the Bill on the grounds that it embodies too much Government action. Very odd! Apparently, their enthusiasm for competition is limited to speechmaking; their will to act has been exhausted by those two measures we hear so much about. They have shot their bolt.
  The truth is, of course, that the Opposition have never had any great enthusiasm for the work of the Monopolies Commission. When they set up the Restrictive Practices Court in 1956, they cut the membership of the Commission down to a mere 10—all of whom except the chairman were part-time, with the result that its inquiries took years. On average, it took 4½ years to produce a report. The flow of references was reduced to
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  a mere trickle, and it was not until the General Election of 1964 was imminent that they talked of reviving its work again.
  Once again, it was left to a Labour Government to act, to enlarge the Commission, increase the number of references sixfold and halve the average time taken to report. But here again, the approach of the Opposition was a half-hearted one. They did not like our proposal to subject to the scrutiny of the Commission not only mergers leading to the creation of a technical monopoly—that is, control of one-third or more of the supply of any product or service—but also mergers involving firms of a certain size—that is, where assets of over £5 million were being transferred.
  The Opposition liked it even less when we took power to hold up a merger pending an investigation by the Monopolies Commission; that sounded too much like effective action to them. And now, over this Bill, they are being equally equivocal. Apparently, they want to put yet another body between industry and Parliament. They want to set up a registrar of monopolies who would investigate the need for an investigation before a matter was referred to the Commission.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. Is not the purpose of a Second Reading to have the Bill explained? I have been sitting here hoping that this important Bill will be explained by the right hon. Lady, but so far I have not heard her give one word of explanation. Are we not entitled to an explanation of the Bill?
  Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order. The hon. Gentleman must be patient.
  Mrs. Castle: I am not surprised that my description of the purposes and content of the Bill exasperates the hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls).
  As I was saying, apparently the Opposition want to set up a registrar of monopolies who would investigate the need for an investigation. The reasons for this suggestion are as obscure as other aspects of the Opposition's policy, but no doubt we shall get some clarification

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  when the right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) speaks. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will make clear what the purpose of this move would be. He may argue that he wants to decide whether a reference to the Commission should be made out of what he would call the arbitrary hands of Ministers.
  Does this mean that references would be automatically the ones which the registrar had found provided prima facie cases? Or would the final decision rest with the Government? If the latter, have we got rid of arbitrariness? Our attitude to the proposal would be very much conditioned by what effect it was intended to have. Is it the right hon. Gentleman's idea to strengthen the operation of a competition policy? In that case, his obvious course is to support the Bill today and move an Amendment in Committee.
  If, however, the Opposition are determined to vote against the Second Reading, we can only deduce that the proposal is a device for duplication and delay which would make reference more difficult. I suspect that it is all part of the current confusion of their ideas, the pathetic parade of indecision over industrial policy that we have had from them and from no one more than the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East, their chosen mouthpiece on this subject. Despite his bold and dashing words to the young Conservatives——
  Mr. R. B. Cant: Is it not the case that the architect of "creative capitalism", or "civilised capitalism", is really not seeking to found a new Tory philosophy in this matter, but is trying, as the Sunday Times said, to detach himself from the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and from the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) so as to leave the way open for his leadership of the Conservative Party?
  Mrs. Castle: I cannot help my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Cant) over that intervention because I am totally at a loss to understand what the right hon. Gentleman's policy is.
  As I was saying, the right hon. Member became remarkably evasive with the Financial Times a few days ago when
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  asked to commit himself as to what the Conservatives would actually do to stimulate competition. Would they keep the I.R.C. in existence with reduced powers? He replied:
  "Well, this battle is still going on and we've not quite finally decided."
  Would they increase the investment incentives for industry? His reply was:
  "We haven't finally decided."
  Richest of all was his answer to the question whether they would intensify competition on American lines: He said:
  "This is what we have got to decide before one or other of us makes the speech on mergers."
  I do not know which right hon. Gentleman opposite is to make the speech on mergers today, but we await it with interest. While they are thinking out their policy, perhaps I can explain the Government's approach as outlined in the Bill.
  The structure of industry has been changing rapidly and fundamentally recently, and rightly so. I think we are all agreed that there had to be rationalisation, regrouping, concentration into larger units, if this country was to hold its own with development in other countries.
  This process, which the Government have deliberately stimulated, has gone ahead dramatically in the last few years. But I should have thought that we would all also recognise that it could carry its own dangers with it. It would be folly to worship size for its own sake. Of course, we want economies of scale and we also want to be sure that larger units really do produce those economies.
  The Government, therefore, have pursued two complementary strategies. On the one hand, with the help of the I.R.C., they have stimulated the most far reaching restructuring of industry since the Industrial Revolution. On the other, they have recognised that the concentration of industry into a smaller number of hands has created situation of market power which can lead to less efficiency, not more, and which call for public scrutiny. We believe, therefore, that we need a body which will carry on the excellent supervisory work of the Monopolies Commission. I am sure that we all want to pay a warm tribute to the way in which the Commission has carried out its work.

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  But we also believe that the scope of the inquiries of the Monopolies Commission is inadequate for the new industrial situation of today. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) pointed out when he was President of the Board of Trade, the Commission has never been solely concerned with investigating particular abuses of market power. It has also had a constructive job to do, seeing whether a firm enjoying monopoly power is making the most efficient use of its resources—and in this the work of the Commission has tended increasingly to merge with that of the Prices and Incomes Board which has approached the same problem from a different angle.
  As my right hon. Friend put it, size is not a universal guarantee of efficiency, and there are plenty of "sleeping giants" in industry. We need, therefore, to ensure that the concentration of industry we have promoted—and shall continue to promote where necessary—really does produce the return in greater efficiency which is the whole justification of the exercise.
  It is this which has led us to extend the concept of market power in the Bill to include, not only situations of technical monopoly or situations where a firm controls one-third of the market in particular products, or situations where a group of firms act together to restrict competition, but the behaviour of large firms. This wider concept is set out in Clauses 2 to 4.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: How does the right hon. Lady expect to judge efficiency? Will it be judged on profits, or how?
  Mrs. Castle: The hon. Gentleman's intervention is a little early. I am coming to that point.
  Size in itself conveys power in a modern industrial society. Large firms have often substantial independence of action in fixing prices, determining wage increases, setting the pattern of production and investment. They have large financial resources and can cross-subsidise to support weak sectors of their business. Twenty-five per cent. of the market in a broad range of related products will afford far greater market power than a third of the market in a single line. Vertical integration confers
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  market power quite as much as monopolies in particular products. The provisions in the present monopolies legislation simply do not cover all the cases where market power can be exercised contrary to the public interest.
  That is why, in Clause 2, we have extended the possibility of reference to all firms with net assets of £10 million or more. But, of course, this does not mean that all such firms will be referred. The C.B.I. has tried to give the impression that there will be an immense extension of the power of the Government to interfere in the commercial affairs of industry. A picture has been drawn of the managing director of every large firm in the country entering his office with trepidation each morning to see if a fatal letter has arrived from my Department referring him to the C.I.M.
  Clearly, this is all nonsense. References will be made only where there is some cause for concern that the use of its market power by a firm may be in conflict with the public interest. Indeed, one intention of this Clause is to avoid the need for probing the conduct of every firm, large or small, as was usually the case when a price rise was referred to the P.I.B. In future, we will be able to concentrate scrutiny on those firms which may be exercising their market power to the detriment of the public interest.
  It may be helpful to the House if I set out broadly what will guide us in deciding whether to make references under Clauses 2 and 3. In most cases a reference will spring from concern about some specific aspect of a firm's behaviour or performance. For example, we may be concerned at the level of prices being charged—prices may have increased faster than those in industry generally, or they may not have been reduced when they might have been expected to decline as a result of technological developments.
  There may be concern at the level of profits where these are substantially above the general level for industry. There may be evidence of discriminatory practice or discount structures. There may be companies pursuing a policy of growth by acquisition not accompanied by a clear improvement in performance. We believe that we should be concerned not only with the traditional abuses of

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  monopoly—exploitation and harmful discrimination—but also with the damage to the public interest which tends to flow from the lack of challenge in non-competitive situations—the "sleeping giant" problem.
  In addition, there will be cases where firms possess a complete monopoly in an important product or an extremely high share of the United Kingdom market. Obviously, the possibility of harm to the public interest in these cases of dominant market power is so much greater than where the market is shared between several firms that the consequences for the public interest of such high degrees of monopoly power ought to be impartially examined by an independent tribunal.
  The power to make references will apply equally to publicly-owned undertakings as to private firms. As the P.I.B. has shown, there is a strong case for having a body which can examine some aspects of the conduct of nationalised industries. Of course, the boards of these industries are given objectives which should not involve a basic clash between interests pursued by the boards and the public interest. But price increases and pay settlements in these sectors of the economy may require examination, and other matters may arise which should be referred.
  In addition, the Bill provides for the C.I.M. to carry out efficency studies of the nationalised industries where Ministers think that this will be helpful. The P.I.B. has begun to develop this work and the C.I.M. will continue it. But, as sub-section (2) of Clause 2 makes clear, such general studies of efficiency will be confined to the public sector where Ministers have a specific responsibility. It will not be possible to make general efficiency references of private firms. Of course, this does not mean that efficiency in the private sector will not be the concern of the Commission. Like the P.I.B., the Commission will always be seeking to make a positive contribution to increasing efficiency, not just looking for conduct to criticise.
  Clauses 5 to 9 of the Bill reproduce the provisions of the present legislation with regard to the examination of mergers. These Clauses are taken over
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  almost without change from the 1965 Act, except that in Clause 7 we have added one new provision; the right to refer the results of past mergers to the Commission, whether it originally approved the merger or not, after an interval of two years.
  This is something for which a number of people have pressed; and it seems eminently sensible that we should take stock from time to time of the results of these great mergers, to find out what has really happened and to make sure that the expected benefits really have flowed from them.
  Among the references which may be made to the C.I.M. are questions relating to salaries, wages or other forms of income. In other words, the Commission will continue the probing, proselytising work of the P.I.B. which has had a remarkable success in elevating the efficient use of manpower to a new level of importance in the minds of management and of trade unions alike.
  No doubt we shall hear a great deal during the debate of the allegation that the Bill does nothing to deal with the "monopoly power" of the trade unions, whatever that may mean. Hon. Gentlemen opposite are becoming obsessed with the trade unions: union-baiting has become their last "white hope", though the more they talk about the need to do something about the unions the clearer it becomes how out of touch they are with the real world of collective bargaining.
  For there is one simple fact that they refuse to face, and that is that management gets the unions it deserves. The prime responsibility for industrial relations rests with management. And so does the prime responsibility for negotiating pay settlements.
  During the last few years the Government have done more than any previous Administration to hammer home to management and trade unions alike the need to link wage increases to productivity and to get rid of obsolete restrictive practices, if we are ever to curb inflation.
  It was this Government, not the party opposite, who set up the P.I.B. to overhaul inflationary pay structures and set up the C.I.R. to reform out-of-date negotiating procedures, believing that we shall never realise our full economic potential

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  unless we revolutionise the use of manpower to match the technological revolution being promoted by Ministry of Technology and the I.R.C.
  Precious little help we have had in all this from hon. Gentlemen opposite. They have done everything in their power to "crib, cabin and confine" the work of the P.I.B. Only the other day, on T.V., in a debate on these proposals with my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Mitcham was indulging in one of his all-too-familiar schoolboy sneers. "We've had C.I.R.s, I.R.C.s and P.I.B.s," he said, "all three-letter word commissions and the only three letters that I think matches them all is N.B.G.'". Good for a giggle, but no good at all as a constructive contribution to one of the most important issues facing the country.
  The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that the C.I.M. should be able to investigate restrictive practices by trade unions. What does he think the P.I.B. has been doing all these years? What does he think has been the purpose of the 150 investigations it has carried out but to highlight the inescapable relationship between high prices and the inefficient use of labour, of which the failure to link pay increases to productivity is such an important symbol?
  These investigations will continue under the new Commission. Under Clause 26, it will be possible to ask the Commission to report on productivity questions in any industry or firm, in exactly the same way as the P.I.B. has done. It will be able to look at wage structures, the way manpower is employed and deployed and at any barrier to optimum efficiency. Industrial relations practices are, of course, a matter for the C.I.R. So it is absurd to suggest that the references under the Bill will be one-sided.
  As for powers, is the right hon. Gentleman complaining that we are dropping the statutory control of incomes which he has attacked so often in the House? Or does he want us to drop the right to regulate prices where the Commission has found that a firm is abusing its market power, a right which is an integral part of the present legislation against monopolies?
  The fact is that it is impossible to separate prices and incomes policy from competition policy—just as the P.I.B.
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  found it impossible to discuss price increases or pay settlements intelligently except in the context of the general efficiency of a company. That is one of the major reasons for merging the P.I.B. with the Monopolies Commission in this new body.
  When hon. Gentlemen opposite complain about the market power of trade unions, they are really complaining about the market power of the firms which negotiate with them. When a firm or group of firms command a dominant position in the market, they have little incentive to be tough in negotiations, to insist on a soundly-based productivity bargain instead of the old-type inflationary pay settlement, because they know that they can always pass on their increased costs in higher prices.
  Mr. Tom Boardman: How can the right hon. Lady reconcile what she has been saying about the responsibilities of management with her statement that power has now passed to the factory floor, a boast which she proudly makes?
  Mr. W. Howie: Grow up.
  Mrs. Castle: I agree with my hon. Friend. It is time that some hon. Gentlemen opposite grew up. It is obvious that the hon. Gentleman has not read the remarks that I made, particularly in view of what he said about my having boasted about it. It is nothing to do with me that power has passed to the shop floor. I was doing a piece of objective reporting. I have been saying this afternoon that it is management's responsibility to face the facts and follow these new developments down the line and really start on the job of communicating intelligently within industry and facing up to its responsibilities.
  It should be obvious that some of the greatest beneficiaries of dominant market power are the trade union negotiators involved. That is why it is essential to retain a power over prices. Firms which abuse their market strength in this way should not be allowed to pass on to the consumer the higher costs that flow from their own inefficiency.
  Despite all the brickbats that have been hurled at the P.I.B.—not least from the benches opposite—we are now getting belated recognition from all sides of the

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  great contribution it has made to educating us all in some of the basic economic facts of life. We believe that this vital education work must be continued by the new Commission. It is an uphill road, but we shall not abandon it.
  Mr. Ian Lloyd rose——
  Mrs. Castle: If I give way too much my speech will be greatly lengthened.
  One of the criticisms which has been made of prices and incomes policy is that the scope of the P.I.B. has not been comprehensive enough. Too many people in the public service have had their pay dealt with by other bodies, so that the advice received by the Government in fixing their remuneration has not always reflected the same principles.
  In July last year the then Paymaster told the House that we were considering ways of giving the P.I.B. a more central rôle in co-ordinating the arrangements for determining pay in the public sector, including the work of the special bodies. This Bill gives us the opportunity to do so.
  Sir Edward Boyle: The right hon. Lady keeps speaking of the need to give greater scope because, she says, the scope of the P.I.B. was not sufficient. Is she aware that one of the strongest criticisms of the P.I.B. has been that some of its reports, and particularly its report on university salaries, have been intolerably superficial? Will the C.I.M. have anything like sufficient permanent staff to carry out all the functions she is describing?
  Mrs. Castle: The right hon. Gentleman has anticipated a later part of my speech. I shall, of course, be referring to the procedures of the new Commission. I am at present dealing with the need to coordinate the arrangements for determining pay in the public sector, and I said that the Bill would give us the opportunity to do so.
  Clause 24 of the Bill enables Ministers to refer to the Commission any question relating to pay and conditions in the public services, and the people to be covered by this Clause are set out in Schedule 3 of the Bill. They include civil servants, N.H.S. employees, the
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  police, the Armed Forces, local authority employees and university teachers.
  Most of these are already covered by their own negotiating machinery, and this will not be interfered with; but it will be a question of asking the Commission from time to time to satisfy itself that we are working out the best pay structures, relating pay to performance wherever possible and securing the most efficient use of manpower.
  Other groups will be covered by standing references to the C.I.M., as they were to the P.I.B. The obvious case is the Armed Forces, though power will be there to cover other cases as well, such as university teachers.
  But there are other groups in the public service the fixing of whose pay raises special problems, because it is what I would call "politically sensitive". In Clause 25 we make provision for the Commission to review and report on the pay of these groups, as defined in Schedule 4. The House will note with interest that, in addition to senior civil servants, the boards of nationalised industries and the top levels of local government, it includes Members of Parliament and Ministers. I am sure that the House will welcome this development.
  It is only right and proper that all public servants, including ourselves, who have no normal negotiating machinery, should have their pay and conditions reviewed at regular intervals by an independent body. It is clearly right that the Commission, which is responsible for advising on pay questions generally, should also be responsible for seeing that pay structures and settlements in these cases accord with the best principles of incomes policy.
  We would all agree that the present arrangements are unsatisfactory from a number of points of view. In the first place, for some of these groups there are no arrangements for regular review at all, and that means that ad hoc inquiries have to be set on foot on each occasion. As a result, we get a series of disconnected reports, perhaps based on different principles, and it often happens that the increase for one group is then used as an argument for increases for the others.
  The provisions of the Bill will overcome these difficulties. We propose that

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  there should be a standing arrangement whereby a special panel of the Commission, whose constitution is set out in paragraph 13 of Schedule 1, would automatically review the pay for these groups at stated intervals.
  We are not laying down in the Bill a precise timetable for these reviews. But we have come to the conclusion that there would be substantial advantages in adopting a system of automatic reviews at regular intervals, and not leaving this to the discretion of Ministers or the Commission.
  I propose, therefore, to ask the chairman, when appointed, to make it the practice of the panel to report fully on the pay of these groups at four-yearly intervals; with a less detailed review every two years. I would ask the chairman to set the work of the panel in motion as soon as the Commission is set up, so that we could have an initial major report by mid-1971. There would then be a mid-way review in 1973, and a full report in 1975.
  The House will see that the Commission will consult with me about the timing of reports, and that I have the power to ask it to make a report. These are necessary provisions to meet unforeseen circumstances. But, as far as can be foreseen, we shall want the Commission to proceed on the regular automatic timetable I have just described, and the Bill gives me no power to veto the panel from reporting at any time if it regards it as desirable to do so.
  The Government believe that reports from this panel of the Commission will command public confidence. In the case of those groups whose remuneration is within the Government's direct control, I can give an undertaking that the Government would take their decisions on the Commission's recommendations without delay. In the case of Members of Parliament, Peers and Ministers, we would put the recommendations before Parliament. The only reservation here is that if a report happened to be made near the end of a Parliament's life it would be desirable to leave action to the new Parliament. In the case of officers of local authorities, it would, of course, be for the local authorities to consider action on the recommendations.
  So much for the references. Now for
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  the powers that will be available to the Government to follow up the Commission's reports. These are set out in Clauses 10 to 18 of the Bill. They no doubt appear far-reaching. So they have to be if the Government are to be able to deal with the variety of detriments which the Commission's reports may reveal. But they have been on the Statute Book since 1948, and neither this Administration nor previous ones have used them harshly or unfairly.
  There are only two points on which we are proposing an extension of the powers under the present monopolies legislation. The first will enable Ministers to stop a firm recommending resale prices if—and only if—the Commission finds the practice to be against the public interest. This flows from the report which the Monopolies Commission made on this matter, in which it recommended that powers should be taken.
  The second new power relates to the disclosure by a firm of financial information over and above anything required under the Companies Acts. Here again, we are acting in the light of a recent Monopolies Commission report, and I regard it as a reserve power. We intend to work out with industry a code of good practice for disclosure over and above the legal requirements, but I believe that the code is much more likely to be adhered to if, in the last resort, there is power to require disclosure where the C.I.M. finds that this is necessary to protect the public interest.
  Indeed, all these powers are available to Ministers only where the C.I.M. states in its report that a matter has an adverse effect on the public interest. The powers are available only to remedy or prevent that specific adverse effect. To allay some of the unnecessary alarm which has been aroused about the possible use of these powers, we have deliberately tightened up the wording of the previous legislation to leave no doubt that Ministers can act only to deal with what the Commission has found to be wrong, and that no power can be used unless it is directly relevant to the adverse effect on the public interest. These safeguards are spelt out in Clause 10(1).
  I know that the C.B.I. is particularly concerned about the power to regulate prices set out in Clause 13(c) of the Bill.

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  As I have said, this power has always been an essential part of our monopolies policy and, for the reasons I have given, we have no intention of abandoning it. But, with the widening of the scope of the Bill, the C.B.I. has been alarmed lest the power might be used indiscriminately to hold down prices in a whole range of situations which have nothing to do with the abuse of market power. This is certainly not our intention, and that is why we have spelt out two safeguards in the Bill.
  First, in Clause 13, we have included a new condition which says, in effect, that the Government may not make a price regulation order unless the Commission has found in its report that the prices concerned represent an unreasonable use of market power; in other words, that competition cannot be relied on to protect the consumer.
  Secondly, in Clause 16(2) we have provided that, where the reference to the Commission related only to a specific price increase, the power of price control can be used only for a maximum of 18 months. This means that if the C.I.M. finds a particular price increase is unjustified and against the public interest, then such a report cannot be used as a basis for permanent price control over that firm.
  I want to emphasise that all these powers are there only as a last resort. The real protection to the public interest springs from the inquiry and report of the Commission, from setting out the facts and from the well-based recommendations which I am sure we shall obtain from the Commission. I do not believe that those concerned are likely to persist in conduct which the commission finds contrary to the public interest, and that once the Commission has pointed out the undesirability of certain practices they will then be ready to modify those practices. But the powers are there, and need to be there, in reserve.
  Mr. Richard Marsh: My right hon. Friend has put forward certain safeguards in terms of price increases. Will she say whether or not these safeguards would be acceptable, both in statute and in practice, in relation to the public as well as the private sector, and
  572
  that there will be safeguards against intervention to prevent justifiable price increases?
  Mrs. Castle: Yes, the policy which I have outlined is applied to the public sector and to the private sector. The conditions for the operation of the powers will apply in the public as well as in the private sector.
  Mr. Marsh: There may be a misunderstanding between us. My fear was not that the public sector would be allowed to increase prices excessively, but how far the safeguards built into the private sector to prevent intervention to stop justifiable price increases would be acceptable, both in statute and in practice, to allow price increases which ought to take place in nationalised industries.
  Mrs. Castle: As my right hon. Friend knows, if there are references to the Commission, these safeguards will apply equally.
  Finally, I want to say something about the status of the Commission. The Commission will in no sense be an agency of the Government. It will be a fully independent body. It will be subject to no directions from the Government other than any general directions about its procedure. It will be concerned with the public interest. And for this purpose it is provided with some guidance in Clause 31 of where the public interest lies. This guidance is basically similar to that given to the Monopolies Commission since 1948. But we have widened it to cover all the matters now within the remit of the Commission, including services, and prices and incomes policy. We have also strengthened the references to the interests of consumers.
  One word on procedure. I believe that the procedures adopted by the Prices and Incomes Board and the Monopolies Commission have, in fact, been fair to those whose affairs were under examination. But it is important that all concerned should feel they have had a full and fair chance to deal with all the issues which the Commission deals with in the report. This is not a matter which is appropriate for the Bill, but I do want to allay any anxieties there may be about this and I shall be discussing with the chairman-designate, when he is appointed, how this can best be achieved.

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  This, then, is the Government's blueprint for helping industry to become more virile, more vigorous and more competitive. Without this approach, we shall never be able to fight inflation in this country. We gather from this morning's Daily Express that the Leader of the Opposition now fully launched on his electioneering flood, has told the Tory 1900 Club that he is intends to make the cost-of-living his main battle cry. He will even, so the Daily Express tells us, give this priority over his "bash the unions" campaign, perhaps because his supporters are beginning to get cold feet on that.
  Apparently the right hon. Gentleman gave his audience last night the results of Tory research on the cost-of-living issue, which showed that 56 per cent. of those interviewed believed that prices could best be kept down by competition between companies. Well, here is the right hon. Gentleman's chance. If he really believes in competition, he will support the stronger provisions in the Bill. If not, we will know that Selsdon man is
  "full of sound and fury,
  Signifying nothing".
  but tough words and soft deeds.
  Because the Bill forms the basis for action, I confidently commend it to the House.
  4.32 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Carr: As I listened to the right hon. Lady the First Secretary I felt that perhaps at least and at last there was one point on which she spoke with real knowledge and experience. That was when she spoke about what it feels like to have cold feet.
  It struck me during her opening remarks that the right hon. Lady must have had a vision last night. She must suddenly have seen the date of the General Election and, the date of the Government's defeat, and felt it urgently necessary to get practice in speaking from an Opposition point of view. She did us the compliment of devoting the whole of the first part of her speech to an attack on the future Government's policy. Of course, it is the policy of the future Government that really matters for this country now.
  The right hon. Lady painted a picture of the Bill. She called it "the ally of
  574
  industry". I suspect that industry will have a somewhat Trojan horse suspicion about this ally coming into it. She spoke of it as "a stimulus to efficiency". I should have thought it much more likely to be a stimulus to delay in decision-making, a stimulus to reduction in capital investment and to a reduction in the competitiveness and vigour of industry, which is what we want. She spoke of this Commission as a watchdog for the consumer. It must be a new breed of barkless, toothless mongrel from the point of view of protecting the consumer. I can only think that in her speech the right hon. Lady epitomised the truth of the saying:
  "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."
  When she looks at this Commission and sees it as bringing virility into industry, imagination knows no bounds.
  At least the right hon. Lady has now got another cause, another crusade. In the past, as each oasis on her desert horizon has turned out to be a mirage, she has immediately gone undaunted towards a new one. First, we had productivity and productivity bargaining. That was the theme of her hot gospelling activities about two years ago. We do not hear much about productivity bargaining today—even with paper bottoms, let alone copper bottoms. In 1969, the great theme was the conciliation pause and "In Place of Strife". These too have "gone with the wind". Now we have the Commission for Industry and Manpower.
  An evil fate seems to hang over almost every cause which the right hon. Lady espouses. Her prices and incomes policy has ended in the most inflationary wage increases since the Prime Minister last tried to win an election with a wage bonanza. It has led to the most rapid rise in prices since there was a Socialist Government 20 years ago. Her industrial relations policy, which, as if tempted by fate, she called "In Place of Strife", has resulted in industrial strife on an unprecedented and still escalating scale.
  For centuries the alchemists of old searched in vain for the Philosopher's Stone to turn base metal into gold. The right hon. Lady has fallen upon the secret of what one might call anti-alchemy. Every bit of gold she touches turns to lead. This C.I.M. will sink with the rest like a lump of lead, too, because it is based on muddled thinking and confused motives. If we are to understand

  575
  the Bill at all, we have to see it exactly for what it is—another instalment in the Government's ineffective and damaging prices and incomes policy. It is supposed to be the final and permanent version of that policy.
  When casting around for that final version, the Government had the not unhopeful idea—at least in theory—that the answer might be found in an instrument to correct the abuse of market power. That is what the Prime Minister told us in the debate on the Address on 28th October last. It is also what the right hon. Lady told us in the debate on prices and incomes on 17th December, when she spoke about
  "accepting the principle that all those who exercise market power should be accountable to the community for their actions."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th December, 1969; Vol. 793, c. 1379.]
  It is also what was said in the consultative document, which was distributed before the Bill was prepared. The last sentence of paragraph 3 of that document spoke about the need for
  "machinery to deal with all situations of imperfect competition."
  The first sentence of paragraph 4 of the document promised that
  "The new commission will be in a position to deal with this problem throughout the economy."
  I ask the House to note the use by the right hon. Lady in December of the phrase,
  "all those who exercise market power"
  and the use of the words in the consultative document that we needed machinery "throughout the economy" and "to deal with all situations of imperfect competition."
  But now we have the Bill, that promise has not been kept: these principles have not been put into practice. Whatever the differences—and there are enormous differences of a deep kind—between the supply of labour and of goods, nevertheless market power can be exerted and can be abused both by the price fixers and by the wage fixers.
  For example, take the case of the printing industry. Can anyone pretend that the supply of labour, the manning scales, the levels of pay, the admission of women and the existence of restrictive practices are not all strongly affected by the market
  576
  power exercised by the printing trade unions through their extremely tight closed shop and other arrangements. Of course they are.
  And if one is to attempt to achieve me Government's avowed objective—to quote the Prime Minister—of the correction of the abuses of market power, then the correction has to be applied equally, as the right hon. Lady herself said in December, to all those who exercise it. And any control over the abuse of market power and the supply of labour is, as the right hon. Lady admitted, specifically excluded from the Bill.
  It might well be argued that the supply of labour should not be dealt with in this sort of legislation or by this sort of corn-mission. That could and would be a serious argument. The point about it is, however, that the Government is making no attempt to deal with this sort of market power either in this Bill, or any other Bill or in any other way. [An HON. MEMBER: "Neither did the right hon. Gentleman's party from 1950 to 1964.'] We are at the moment talking about the C.I.M. Bill and the principles the Government laid down and which they are failing, as always, to put into practice.
  Quite apart from any question of justice in the treatment of one section of the community compared with another, this omission inevitably renders largely nugatory the principle of dealing with the problem by the control of market power. So we have a Bill, and under it a Commission, in which the principle of market power is hopelessly mixed up with and largely overlaid by considerations which, in our view, will prove as harmful in their new C.I.M. context as they did in the past in their old prices and incomes policy context.
  Thus, this C.I.M. is a strange mongrel creature in which, unfortunately, the dominant characteristics have been inherited from the P.I.B. rather than the Monopolies Commission parent. Under this proposed dispensation we now have a situation where prices can be statutorily regulated and controlled; and not only, whatever the right hon. Lady may say, when the abuse of market power has been proved. The Bill goes much wider than that.
  We have, under this proposed dispensation, the situation where prices can

  577
  be statutorily controlled and wages cannot be. We do not believe—and we are absolutely consistent in this—in the detailed statutory control of either wages or prices. But this particular mix of statutory price control and no wage control is a recipe for disaster. It will encourage either roaring inflation—if it is possible to get an inflation more roaring than the one we are in at the moment—or, if prices should, by any chance, be held below the rising wage costs, declining profitability and, therefore, declining investment in industry when the Chancellor is saying that declining investment would be one of the worst things for economic policy.
  Those, then, will be the penalties we would pay and that would be the sort of disaster. Paradoxically, we may find ourselves with a mixture of both evils at the same time—the traditional Labour Government induced "stagflation" about which my right hon. Friend has often spoken——
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: I am trying to get an answer to an important point which the right hon. Lady did not give to me. I gather from the right hon. Lady that one of the tests of inefficiency was high profits. Would my right hon. Friend help me? Is his view that a firm is efficient or inefficient when it makes no profit or low profit? Is "low profit "not to be a test of efficiency?
  Mr. Carr: I certainly cannot say what the Government's view is because they are very mixed up about it. So often what the right hand of the Government believes is quite opposite from what their left hand believes. Our view is absolutely clear. So long as one has achieved a competitive environment—and that is vital—high profits are a test of efficiency. High profits are good. High profits are the source of innovation, new development, more employment, more exports and a better standard of living.
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: That is what I wanted on the record.
  Mr. Carr: I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) is pleased. I am sure that the country will be pleased with him.
  578
  Moreover, I suggest that there is another possible danger in this policy, for which, strangely, the right hon. Lady was taking some credit in one part of her speech. I fear, and I suspect that my fears may well be shared by at least a number of hon. Gentlemen opposite, that this may add even more fuel to the fires of industrial conflict. If companies really were to try to use either the facts or the threat of Government price control as a reason for refusing wage claims, I believe that the anger and bitterness of workers and trade unions and the unfairness of it all might be even greater than under the provocation of the old statutory incomes policy. I do not believe that many companies will be able to do what the right hon. Lady suggested they could do in the circumstances of a modern economy; but if they were to use the fact that the Government were stopping them increasing their prices I think that the right hon. Lady would find that she has thrown another fire lighter on to the fire of industrial strife.
  There is no doubt, of course, that the C.I.M. will be presented to the public in the coming months as the new, wonderful instrument of power which will at last control the cruel rate of price increases and inflation which is now well established as the hallmark of Labour Government. It will not. As far as controlling prices is concerned, it is nothing but a spoof, a great big spoof.
  Look at the record. We have had these powers of early warning and statutory control of price increases for most of the five and half years of this Government's life and look what has happened. If all this bureaucratic and Ministerial intervention has not worked hitherto, what scrap of evidence is there to suggest that suddenly it will begin working now? During the six years prior to 1964 under a Conservative Government, with no early warning system, with no statutory price control, except in a proven case of abuse of market power under monopolies legislation, prices rose only about half as fast as they have been doing during the five and half years of Labour government.
  Moreover, the Labour Government's record is just as bad relatively since they have introduced all this paraphernalia of prices policy, as it was during the first one

  579
  and half years of their period of office. Food prices have been the subject of particularly close scrutiny under the early warning system, yet they have risen even faster than prices generally—a 6·3 per cent. increase in food prices during the 12 months ended in February; and since devaluation we have been told that there have been 15,000 price increases in grocery items alone. That is only part of the story under Labour Government. Coal up 29 per cent., electricity up to 28 per cent., gas up 15 per cent., house prices up 40 per cent., mortgage repayments on an average priced new home up £3 10s. a week: this is what has happened under these wonderful, bureaucratic, early warning powers, with high-powered experts in ivory towers looking into matters. Now we are asked the believe that prices will be kept under control by the continuation of this crackpot system.
  Let us consider what has been happening in the last three months since that notable day just before Christmas, 17th December, when the right hon. Lady the First Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer pleaded with the House to extend the powers of Part II of the Prices and Incomes Act, 1966. That, we were told, was a vital bridging operation until we could get the C.I.M. Bill passed and working. Few of us on either side of the House, whichever way we may have voted in the Lobby, could see why it was vital; but Ministers told us that it was and that we should be sunk without it. They said that this bridge was essential and that we must have it to reach the promised land of the C.I.M. which has been disclosed to us today.
  But where have we got to on that bridge since 17th December? What use has been made of the powers which were said to be so essential before Christmas? What influence has their existence had as a deterrent in the background? The answer is, none at all—certainly none for the good.
  In pleading for an extension of the powers on 17th December, the right hon. Lady said:
  "if output per worker increases by 3 per cent., most pay settlements need to fall within a range of 2½ per cent. to 4½ per cent. if the aim of greater price stability is to be achieved.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th December, 1969; Vol. 793, c. 1379.]
  580
  What has happened to pay settlements? There have been settlements of 10 per cent., 12 per cent—[An HON. MEMBER: "20 per cent."] Some have been higher. I am talking about the average. What does the right hon. Lady say about "greater price stability" now, and what can the Bill do about it?
  Consider what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in winding up the debate on prices and incomes on 17th December:
  "We should now be able to look forward to a greatly reduced rate of price increase. We could break the price-inflation psychology but not if we have a wage or price explosion."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 1969; Vol. 793, c. 1476.]
  What a forecast from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I only hope that he will be more accurate next week. But, far more important, what an irresponsible lapse in the standard of judgment and advice which the House should expect from a Chancellor of the Exchequer. Did not the right hon. Gentleman know, or even have the slightest inkling of, what was boiling up in industry? If he did not know, he and his colleagues are indeed living in a padded cell at the top of an ivory tower.
  Everyone in touch with the real world knew before Christmas what was happening. Everyone knew that what the right hon. Lady and the Chancellor were saying was utter nonsense. They knew that these powers which the Ministers were saying were essential, were useless and would never be used. Yet we went through that charade.
  Since that date, we have had a wage and price explosion of the sort which the Chancellor said he thought he could move away from. There have been wage increases in the 10 to 15 per cent. range, with no attempt to attach any productivity strings at all. So far this year prices have been rising at an annual rate of almost 8 per cent., with many more price increases to come. An increase in the price of bread was announced yesterday. Increases in the price of meat, milk and goodness knows how many other foods are soon to follow. There are to be increases in Post Office charges. London bus fares are to rise as a result of the 16 per cent. wage increase announced in the newspapers today.
  The situation is appalling. We are in the throes of a roaring inflation. The

  581
  Government have stood by in the last three months doing nothing. They have refrained from making the slightest use of the powers which only just before Christmas they told the House and the country were essential to prevent what has happened. Cannot the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the right hon. Lady see the damage being done by this farce—by the gap between words and reality, between promise and performance? It is a farce; but it is also a tragedy. Cannot Ministers see that this sort of, not just double talk, but absolute gobbledegook destroys the credibility and authority of government as an institution?
  Is it any wonder that respect for Government and Parliament and politicians generally is plummeting to its lowest depths? Is it any wonder that people take the law into their own hands on almost every occasion? [Interruption.] Strangely enough, law and order, not only or even mainly in the sense of catching and punishing criminals, but, above all, in the sense of supporting freedom and responsibility, happens to be what democratic government is about. When democratic government has reduced itself to no credibility and no authority, very serious damage has been done. That is what right hon. Gentlemen and the right hon. Lady opposite have done.
  Mr. Frederick Lee: Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that every one of the wage increases he has mentioned resulted from free collective bargaining? His party does not believe in Government interference by legislation. How would he stop such wage increases?
  Mr. Carr: I will come to that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh"] If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the speeches which my right hon. and hon. Friends and I have made on successive Prices and Incomes Bills, he will find that the answer—the only answer which can be found in freedom—is an entirely different economic, fiscal and industrial relations policy. My right hon. and hon. Friends and myself have spelt this out on a number of occasions. We shall be delighted to take the opportunity to spell it out on other occasions, but not during this debate. [Interruption.] Hon. Members will hear some of it, but not all of
  582
  it, today. Some of it will be coming in a moment.
  How can Ministers expect anyone in the country, let alone in the House, to take them seriously when they come forward with a Bill like this for more and more State intervention, for making permanent, powers of investigation and control over prices which have proved so ineffectual and such a laughing stock over the last four years? We reject the whole approach, not because the Bill concentrates on making competition more effective, but because it does not. We do not believe that more and more inquiry and report by more and more so-called experts into more and more aspects of more and more companies could ever produce the expanding, risk-taking, tautly efficient economy on which our future prosperity depends.
  Mr. Stanley OrmeWhat about "Fair Deal at Work"?
  Mr. Carr: The hon. Gentleman does not understand the purpose of the law we propose. It is a condition for the minimal amount of Government interference. The only condition in a free society in which individual sections and interests in the society can have the minimum amount of interference is a condition in which the Government have laid down the basic rules within which all of us are free to operate. Without that there can be no respect for other people's interests. This is one of the great problems of order in a free society, and it is the major job of Government. That is our philosophy: we only wish it were the philosophy of the party opposite.
  We have said that it is only within the context of such an economy that we can ever hope to solve our prices and incomes problems. We have said over and over again, and we shall go on saying, that high profitability, high investment, high earnings, higher efficiency and an expanding economy will only come when we get fiscal, economic and industrial relations policies radically different from those of the Labour Government. Within the context of these entirely different policies, we believe most certainly and strongly that there must be a Monopolies Commission more powerful and effective than the present Commission, and the next Conservative

  583
  Government will create just such a Commission.
  Mr. Sydney Bidwell: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that over the last four years there has been an enormous spurt in productivity and an enormous spurt in conscientiousness between management and men; and that this has led to the record export figures that are solving the balance of payments crisis left by the party opposite?
  Mr. Carr: But not because of a statutory prices and incomes policy. I have said, and the right hon. Lady has quite fairly quoted me in previous debates as saying, that some of the early reports of the Prices and Incomes Board had a powerful educative effect which was very beneficial, but that was before the day when the whole thing got prostituted by detailed statutory powers of control. That has always been the distinction we have made.
  I shall now indicate by criticism of some of the main proposals of the Bill the sort of Commission which the next Conservative Government will create in the next Parliament. First, however, in case it is not already clear, let me state categorically that in creating the right sort of agency the next Conservative Government will inevitably, unfortunately, have to make radical changes in the composition, the constitution, the terms of reference, the procedures and the powers of the C.I.M. as proposed in the Bill. It is only fair to put that statement firmly on record.
  There are many important criticisms to be made of the main provisions of the Bill. I obviously cannot and I certainly will not try to deal with many of them. My hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Dudley Smith) will raise a few more that I leave out, but a lot of other criticisms of great substance will have to await the Committee stage.
  First, there is the composition of the Commission. To show our idea of what is needed, I want to quote a very brief extract from the speech made at Truro by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition on 24th September, 1968, when he said:
  "The Monopolies Commission needs to be streamlined. It should be staffed with a first-
  584
  rate fulltime Board ready to act as speedily as business decisions today demand."
  The C.I.M. as constituted in the Bill fails completely to pass that test. We still have the same number of members, only one of whom has to be full time. Nothing has been said in the documents or in speeches about the staffing of the Commission, or its professionalism. The Commission is inadequate for its present tasks. It is hopelessly inadequate for the wide range of new powers that are being added to it, even if one agreed with all those new powers being added.
  Secondly, we have the power of reference to the Commission resting solely with Ministers—a point which the hon. Lady specifically mentioned. We are sure that that is now wrong. It may have been all right in the early days of monopolies policy, but we came to the conclusion by 1964 that the time had come to make a change. Selection of cases will always be difficult, and always open to suspicion about motives of one kind or another. We think that the initiative ought not to be solely in political hands, particularly if this is to become a more active part of policy.
  Examples of reference and non-reference in recent years have given cause for concern. There was the G.E.C.-A.E.I. merger—not referred. Why? Sponsorship, I suppose, by the I.R.C. was thought to be sufficient. But the fact that something is sponsored behind closed doors by one agency of the Government does not provide the public accountability which the right hon. Lady says is the principle of the Bill.
  There was the Reed-I.P.C. merger—on what possible grounds was that not referred? It was a conglomerate, and was certainly market dominant in some areas. If ever there was an obvious case for reference before the merger went through, that was it.
  No one knows why the proposed Burmah Oil-Laporte merger was referred; but the merger was stopped as a result. On what basis was it referred? Other oil companies are deep in the chemical industry—why not Burmah Oil? What has been the result? The result of the Burmah Oil-Laporte merger being prevented means that we are now almost certain to have a 20 per cent. stake by the Belgian company. That may be good or it may be bad—I do not know—but by saying that

  585
  the Burmah Oil-Laporte proposal had to be referred, we have created a position in which this British company, with its know-how, could—I do not say that it will—pass into foreign control.
  Another example is the recent I.C.I. proposal to take over Viyella, Carringtons and Dewhurst. In this case we had the Paymaster-General apparently setting himself up as his own personal alternative commission.
  All this is not public accountability. Examples like these provide the reasons which make us strongly recommend that the time has now come when we should establish a registrar of monopolies who would have the duty to initiate references. There is here a difference between monopolies and restrictive trade practices. It is not as easy to define in a Bill what one means by a market and by market dominance as it was to define criteria of trade practices. Because of that difference, we do not think that the registrar of monopolies could have quite the full, unfettered, independent power of the Registrar of Restrictive Trade Practices. We therefore suggest that while the registrar should have power to initiate, Ministers should have power to veto, because that would leave it in the hands of Parliament. Parliament could see what had been done, and have an opportunity to examine.
  It is sheer nonsense for the right hon. Lady to talk of our idea of a registrar as though it were some device to weaken the powers of the Commission. The reverse is the truth. It is intended to toughen the Commission, and to give criteria to an independent body to bring cases——
  Mr. Joel Barnett: The right hon. Gentleman earlier complained about the Minister not making references to the Commission in certain instances where he feels, and many others might feel, reference should have been made. Does he now propose to take away from Ministers the right to initiate such references?
  Mr. Carr: I am proposing to place on the registrar a duty to seek out cases where it appears that market dominance exists, and to propose references by means of criteria. I am certainly prepared to consider the possibility that Ministers should also have the right to
  586
  propose—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ministers are elected."] But the Registrar of Restrictive Trade Practices is also a non-elected official, set up with legal powers and legal terms of reference. He has to make reports that have to be presented to the House, and may be debated. Is not that practice more publicly accountable than decisions taken by Ministers behind closed doors to refer one company and its proposed merger and not another? This is not a proposal which will decrease Parliamentary accountability. It will increase it.
  Mr. George Darling rose——
  Mr. Carr: I am reluctant to give way again in view of the time, but I know the right hon. Gentleman's special interest in these matters.
  Mr. Darling: Surely, the right hon. Gentleman is aware that we had to amend the Restrictive Trade Practices Act in order to give discretion to Ministers so that certain practices which would otherwise have been brought before the Court were not brought before the Court in the public interest.
  Mr. Carr: But that does not invalidate the case for the registrar. The Government did not, therefore, abolish the Registrar of Restrictive Trade Practices, although they happened to find circumstances which, in their judgment—whether everyone agreed is another matter—justified altering his powers and terms of reference. But that is a perfectly logical and democratic thing to do. It was not the same as saying that there should be no registrar. We consider that there should be a registrar in this case, not only from the point of view of reference, but also—I come to this now—in connection with the procedures of the Commission.
  We believe that it would be to the advantage of both the Commission and of industry, and to the advantage of the respect of one for the other, as well as the quality of the Commission's work, if we could separate the investigatory and presentational work from what I would call the judgment. We believe, therefore, that the registrar, properly staffed, should be given the duty of preparing and presenting cases to the Commission for consideration.

  587
  Next, I come to the vital question of making size of itself a criterion for reference to the Commission. This is a new criterion. We object to it most strongly. The only valid test for reference, in our view, is market power and limited competition.
  The Minister of State, Department of Employment and Productivity (Mr. Edmund Dell)rose——
  Mr. Carr: I am willing to give way, but this is delaying the House.
  Mr. Dell: I wish to take up a point before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the question of a registrar of monopolies and the power to refer mergers. He said that the registrar would be given criteria. I take it that he will in due course say what those would be. Will he say also whether there would be a standstill on a merger pending the investigation, and whether the £5 million asset criterion in the present legislation would continue?
  Mr. Carr: I agree that those are all important points, but my hon. Friend is to wind up, and there will thereafter be the important Committee stage ahead of us, to say nothing of Report. We shall deal with all these matters in due time.
  Mr. Dell: But they are immediate questions.
  Mr. Carr: Perhaps they are, but we shall deal with them. Within the compass of a Second Reading opening speech, there is a limit to the number of matters one can argue in detail. We are throwing into the pool of argument, which is what an Opposition should do—we are always told that we ought to be constructive—constructive suggestions about the registrar. [An HON. MEMBER: "They have not thought about it."] Indeed, we have thought about it. It was in our 1964 White Paper, and we shall debate the matter in detail at the appropriate time.
  I had come to the question of making size by itself a criterion for reference to the Commission. As I say, this is a new criterion, and we strongly object to it. The only proper valid test for reference is market power and limited competition. If, for social or economic reasons, we fear the creation of giant industrial undertakings, the proper safeguards are to look at mergers at the time they are pro-
  588
  posed—that we support—and second, to cause more disclosure of their affairs by companies by extending company law requirements, which also we support, as we do the concept that employees should be given at least the same amount of information as shareholders.
  I come now to another new point of the Bill, namely, follow-up inquiries on mergers. We object to this, too. The proper time to look critically at a merger is immediately it is proposed. The possibility—let alone the fact—of an inquiry is an adequate and proper safeguard against irresponsible claims being made in the course of trying to win a merger battle and irresponsible or wrong purposes contrary to the public interest. Thereafter, why should a company, just because it has been formed by a merger, be treated differently from any other form of company? Why should it have its roots pulled up and examined, possibly at two-yearly intervals, just because it was formed by process of merger? That is hardly conducive to growth or efficiency. It is totally illogical and unnecessary.
  A merger can be, and always should be, subject to reference on grounds of market power and restricted competition, but if that criterion does not apply, why should a merger be looked at any more than a company which does not happen to have been formed by a merger process?
  Sir Harmar Nicholls: If we are to be the Government soon, it is as well that our leaders should know some of our feelings. The registrar will have to be an Archangel Gabriel to have these powers without the restriction of Parliament, and I should like to know where he will come from. I want my right hon. Friend to know that there will be one or two reservations on this side about whether he should be given these powers.
  Mr. Carr: I fully accept the point which my hon. Friend makes. When we are in a position to put these proposals in detail, those questions will be gone into and fully debated. But, just as we came to the conclusion that a Registrar of Restrictive Trade Practices was, on balance, right, so we believe that, on balance, a registrar in this case—although not without its difficulties and snags—is preferable to continuing to leave the

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  matter entirely in the hands of Ministers. I fully accept, however, that this is a matter which should be debated across the Floor of the House and on each side of the House.
  I come now to the scale and type of powers given to Ministers under the Bill. The powers are virtually limitless because they are so loosely defined. The right hon. Lady said that they were really not very different from those which had existed before, and I agree about that; but what is very different is the context in which they will be used. There will now be an almost limitless range of pretexts on which a company, as opposed to a whole industry, may be referred to the Commission. Once a reference has been made, and once an adverse report is in the Minister's hands, the Minister will have power to do almost anything. The Minister is in no way limited by the Bill to implementating the proposals and recommendations in the Commission's report. She can throw them out of the window. So long as she has an adverse report, she has power to do almost anything, without definition or limitation.
  Yet, funnily enough, amid all that power, there is no mention of one power which is increasingly important in the international world, namely, the possibility of using the weapon of tariff reduction as one of the most important means of enforcing competition on any sluggish giant or any sort of sluggish company in the country.
  There is another danger that, unlike the monopolies legislation hitherto, the Bill gives the Minister power to make orders against individual companies instead of against whole industries. Thus, one company can be penalised vis-à-vis its competitors not because it has been shown to be behaving more badly than any of its competitors but just because of the chance that it has been investigated and its competitors have not. This is open to grave opportunity for dangerous unfairness.
  One new feature in the Bill, which we thoroughly approve of and which, therefore, it is only fair to mention, is the inclusion of nationalised industries. [An HON. MEMBER: "The right hon. Gentleman would."] Yes, and I hope that hon. Members opposite do as well.
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  I come now to Part II of the Bill, which I shall deal with in omnibus fashion—the compulsory notification of increases in prices, charges, incomes and dividends. This epitomises the whole philosophy and approach to which we object and which so palpably has failed to work in recent years. Let us consider the enormous amount of work and the bureaucracy which it will involve if this becomes a permanent feature of our system. What purpose will it serve? Most of the time, it will be done for love of paper-pushing, occasionally, perhaps, for the purpose of providing information for the work of the Commission. But are Ministers really claiming that they have not known which industries or companies ought in the past to have been referred to the Monopolies Commission for lack of some compulsory notification system? I do not believe that they could substantiate such a claim, and I am certain that we do not want this compulsory notification system for that purpose.
  If it has a real purpose, it is quite different, namely, the purpose of giving Ministers and civil servants power to influence the commercial decisions of companies behind the scenes; to make companies subservient to Whitehall. Quite apart from the ant-heap of bureaucracy which it will throw up, it seems likely to create less competition rather than more, to create less of a competitive and more of a play-safe psychology. To create a situation in which, before a company can make decisions, it has to go along to its guardian under-secretary in the appropriate Department and say, "Please, Sir, I want to do this, and may I do that?", is not the way to create an environment in which we can encourage competitive, vigorous, risk-taking, innovating, fast-moving boards of directors and managements in this country. On the contrary, this running to the gentleman in Whitehall is one of the most enervating influences on British industry; and it is disastrous if it is continued.
  So the Bill brings into focus the real difference in economic philosophy between the two sides of the House and brings into focus the choice in economic terms which the country must make. Britain must have an effective economic driving force if we are to have an expanding economy—expanding in scale, in

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  capital intensity, in the level of innovation and efficiency.
  There are only two main alternative driving forces. Either may be successful. One of the driving forces is State direction and control. The other is the driving force of the market economy, of competitive free enterprise—profitable free enterprise, profitable enterprise in a competitive environment, individual responsibility, with freedom; and, if there is freedom, sometimes the abuses that go with freedom.
  In Britain under a Socialist Labour Government neither of these driving forces is given anything like full throttle. Labour dislikes and distrusts the market force economy. It tends to choke it with interventiton, to starve it of incentive, and to weaken its toughness and self-reliance with too much subsidy and advice.
  On the other hand, Labour Government draws back from full-blooded State direction. Labour Governments meddle but do not manage. The meddling leads to muddling. The muddling leads to the need for more meddling and intervention. That is the dreary vicious circle, not just of this Labour Government but of all past Labour Governments. It is what springs from their basic beliefs and dogma.
  In Britain we must make a clearer choice. There is no need to go to either extreme, but we must come down more firmly on one side of the fence or the other—either much less intervention, much more freedom, much more incentive, much more dependence on the market economy; or—this is a perfectly valid alternative—more full-blooded State direction and planning.
  There is no doubt about our choice. We believe that there is no doubt about the country's choice when it is put to them. When we talk about the market economy and freedom, that is not the same as a free-for-all. We mean freedom with responsibility. We mean liberty with order. We believe that the prime job of government is to lay down the rules by law, whether in the field of taxation, or in industrial relations, or in social policy; second, to appoint, where necessary, the referees to judge when the rules have been broken and, if necessary, to take corrective action. But
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  within the limits of those rules government should leave the maximum freedom for the individual to get on with his job in his own way. In that way we believe that we shall get responsible private interest marching in step with public policy.
  We believe that that is the key to success in a free democracy. If that is not the key, right hon. and hon. Members opposite must come clean with the alternative choice, which is much, much more State direction, control and ownership. Let them put that choice clearly to the country. We have no doubt about the answer. It is because we are firm in our belief about freedom and the market economy that we are voting against the Bill tonight.
  5.25 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Lee: The right hon. Gentleman for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr), in his criticisms of the Bill, and in telling us what the Tory Party would do, confounded even our ideas of what the Tory Party's policies are. The worst he could say about the results of the Bill was that it may well be that trade unions which could not secure wage advances because the Commission had recommended that there should not be increases in prices would then blame the Commission for their inability to secure wage advances.
  I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has a bad memory. He was describing with utter precision what the Tory Government did some years ago. When Sir Anthony Eden was Prime Minister and Harold Macmillan was Chancellor of the Exchequer, they decided that for a given period no nationalised industry should be allowed to increase its prices. They did that for no other reason than to stop wage advances in the nationalised industries. Afterwards, when Harold Macmillan had become Prime Minister and when the prices and incomes policy, such as it was, was in being, it culminated in Harold Macmillan coming to the Dispatch Box and using the House to deliver a terrific public reprimand to the Chairman of the Electricity Council for having the effrontery and the impudence to grant a wage advance higher than that which Tory Ministers had said that he could grant.

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  That is a completely accurate description of what the right hon. Gentleman today told us we must never allow to happen. When the right hon. Gentleman thinks it out, I challenge him to deny that which I have asserted—that he gave us the most precise description of where his Government led us when they used the House to indict trade unions for asking for wage increases.
  I interrupted the right hon. Gentleman in the course of his speech. He was indicting the Government for responsibility for the inflationary processes now going on. I pointed out that every one of the wage increases had come about as a result of free collective bargaining, which the Tory Party agrees with. That being so, and the Tory Party having no time whatever for legislation which would give the Government any powers in this matter, what would the right hon. Gentleman do about it? What should this Government have done about it? That is what I asked.
  We have had no answer. I challenge the Tory Party to answer my question. I challenge the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Dudley Smith) to tell us the answer when he replies. The Tories cannot play this two ways. Either the Government have power to stop these things, or one believes in the free negotiating medium to produce the given results. Which way does the Tory Party want to play it?
  Mr. R. Carr: I do not understand the right hon. Gentleman. We have made it absolutely clear all along that we believe in free collective bargaining and are opposed to statutory incomes control. We are not opposed to an inquiring and reporting procedure which can help to educate. We have made that clear, too. But that is absolutely different from what we are talking about today, and it is absolutely different from the sort of statutory incomes policy which has been operated by the Labour Government since 1966.
  Mr. Lee: That will not do. I still want the answer. Either the Government intervene by statutory or other methods or they must leave industry completely uninhibited to determine wage and price increases. Which way is the right hon. Gentleman going? He has told us that the Government are to be indicted be-
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  cause these increases are producing inflationary pressure. I asked him what he would do, and he has not given the answer. The Opposition are trying to cash in on a situation, for which they, more than the Government, are responsible, in order to curry favour.
  I am not convinced of the need for the marriage of the N.B.P.I. and the Monopolies Commission. I could better understand the bringing together of the Industrial Reorganisation Commission, whose work I admire, and the Monopolies Commission. The work of those two bodies fuses more readily than the work of the Monopolies Commission and the N.B.P.I. As an unrepentant believer in the prices and incomes policy, I feel that, when this marriage is consummated, the N.B.P.I. may take on the appearance of a victim of assault and battery.
  At least half the functions of the N.B.P.I. have already passed into the realm of the theoretical. I find it difficult to understand why, when the Government have renounced their own power to regulate incomes to productivity, they should now accept responsibility for price increases over which they have no control. I do not want the new creation to be discredited. It is in the interests of the nation that it should have authority and that its reports should be accepted by knowledgeable people, but in conditions where incomes increases are unrestricted, the Commission can only rubber stamp the vast majority of price increases which are referred to it. In those conditions, I do not think that the new Commission stands as much chance as the N.B.P.I. stood of having its reports accepted by a cross-section of the community as fair and objective.
  It is interesting to watch the gyrations of the Leader of the Opposition. On one day we heard cries of ersatz indignation about the incomes explosion, which was precipitated by his own actions. The Government lost the prices and incomes battle. The leadership in that battle came from the Opposition—let us give them credit for winning it. The Opposition won that battle, and made it possible for what they describe as an explosion of increases in incomes to occur. On the following day we hear from the Leader of the Opposition equally loud cries of criticism of the

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  Government about the price increases which his own policies have made inevitable. Hypocrisy cannot go much further than that. I never understood what Disraeli meant when he said—
  "For me, there remains this at least, the opportunity of expressing thus publicly my belief that a Conservative Government is an organised hypocrisy."
  I have now learnt precisely what he meant. What could be better described as organised hypocrisy than a party, which looks upon itself as the alternative Government, and which has helped to produce a certain amount of anarchy in industrial circles, bemoaning the fact that it won the battle against the Government?
  Instead of the Government saying, "We know that there are price increases and we will try to contain them by taking certain action", they should tell the nation that the price increases are due to their failure to win the incomes policy battle, the real winner of which was the Tory Party. The Tory Party must bear responsibility for all that flows from the loss of the Government's incomes policy.
  Mr. John Page: I think the hon. Gentleman is being a little unfair to his right hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Houghton), some of his other hon. Friends and Mr. Victor Feather in underrating what they did to deflect the Government, and giving us all the credit for it.
  Mr. Lee: Alternative Governments must take their responsibility
  Mr. Page: We do.
  Mr. Lee: Do not try to run away from it then. I am perhaps giving the hon. Gentleman and his party the credit, which they do not deserve, of knowing precisely where their policies lead the nation. If they deflect the Government from its policies they must take the responsibility for the result. It is ridiculous to talk about underrating what Mr. Victor Feather and other people have done. If I were a leading trade unionist, I would want increases for my members, and, if the Opposition, which looks upon itself apparently as the next Government, says in this House on 24 occasions that workers who defect from the voluntary
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  incomes policy were right to do so whilst millions of others were obeying that policy, I would want to get on the bandwaggon, and this is what some trade unions did. I do not blame them for that; that is why they are there; but I do blame political parties which bring about the position in which the trade unions can do this.
  The incomes policy was never intended simply as a restrictive measure. It was meant to bring, in line with increased productivity, increased emoluments and living standards. The tragedy is that the Government abandoned it at the very moment when it was possible to reap the benefit of the constructive side of the incomes policy, having endured the more destructive side for so long. The legislation deals with the dangers of monopoly. We emphasise the need for maintaining a competitive base under certain conditions.
  I hope the House will realise that we are now moving into an industrial and economic situation in which competition plays less and less of a part in certain industries and in which the price one pays for efficiency is that of increased size. I believe we should not try to thwart that kind of development in certain of our heavy industries. It may be we have to accept that they have developed to the point where semi-monopoly may be essential if they are to be highly efficient.
  If I am right, there is one question which the nation must answer, and it is a question that is not posed in this legislation. If semi-monopoly is the price one pays for efficiency, what kind of monopoly should it be, private or public? It is wrong that we should now look at the economic and power issues which come from monopoly in the rather confined space imposed by the legislation. I hope that the Government have not turned their back on the proposition that, rather than refuse to accept the need for monopoly or semi-monopoly in certain of our heavy industries, the question about private or public monopoly must again be due for discussion both in this House and in other political spheres.
  The work which has been carried out in restructuring industry has given this nation a chance to get back into the top flight of industrial nations. That work would never have been done if we had

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  listened to the Tories describing the Industrial Reorganisation Corporation as "back-door nationalisation" and had heeded their advocacy that we should retain small splintered kinds of industries. Indeed, although they were opposed to the greatest amalgamation which has occurred in years, nationalisation of the steel industry, it undoubtedly has given to that industry in this country the chance to compete on equal terms with the steel industry of any nation. I shudder to think what would be the position of British Steel now if we had not encouraged that kind of practical monopoly.
  While I support the Bill, I hope that we shall not close our eyes to the logic of the economic and industrial development we now see in Britain. This party has never looked on public ownership as a dogma. I think we are able to defend that proposition in relation to any industry which we have taken over, whether it be coal, electricity or whatever it may be. Therefore, let us not look for subterfuge or for ways which may be inimical to the best interests of industry. Let us instead look at the question which I have posed to the House and which I hope the Government will take seriously.
  5.44 p.m.
  Mr. Kenneth Lewis: This Bill is the biggest example of bureaucratic bumbledom we have yet had from a Department which has come to Parliament with some supreme examples of that kind of thinking. The Department of Employment and Productivity, headed by the right hon. Lacy, is seeking to establish a record for putting Bills through the House. My right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) said that he saw a General Election ahead and therefore there seems to be a certain amount of speed in the Department wanting to get this Bill on the Statute Book.
  I am beginning to wonder why it is so anxious to get this Bill through. The Bill claims to be an amalgamation of the Monopolies Commission and the National Board for Prices and Incomes. The right hon. Lady and her predecessors on many occasions in this House have stated their firm support of the prices and incomes policy. They said at the beginning that it was hoped the policy would go from a statutory policy to a voluntary one. If
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  they really believe in the National Board for Prices and Incomes, I cannot understand why they are now proceeding to demolish it, unless they are trying to wrap up the old statutory proposals of the Board in a voluntary guise under this Bill. If, by mischance, they are brought back into power, which is unlikely to happen, we should soon find that the incomes side of the prices and incomes policy would again be statutory.
  I do not believe this marriage to be necessary. It has taken place at too late an age to be very productive in the long term and it will be disruptive in the short term. The trouble is that this Government have a tendency to legislate for the sake of it. Do not Ministers understand that industry in trying to get our exports going has enough to do without having to deal with new complicated Bills which seem to roll off the parliamentary line month by month.
  We had a great deal from the right hon. Lady today about the great necessity to keep down prices. It was the most utter load of nonsense since she and the Government know very well that, first of all, they have failed to keep down prices, and that if they had not allowed prices to rise we would have been in an even more disastrous state than we are now. It was obvious that prices had to rise following devaluation. Furthermore, when the wage increases that we have seen in the last few months get through the pipeline, if prices do not rise to match up to them this Government will be faced with the prospect of another devaluation. Indeed I believe that is what their policies are heading for.
  The present improvement in the balance of payments is likely to fade and if, by mischance, they are returned to Government, the country will be faced with devaluation. Certainly this would be the case if the policies enunciated by the right hon. Lady were brought into operation and if prices were held down. Therefore, anything in the Bill which suggests that the Chancellor could possibly subscribe to a policy of keeping down prices is a mirage.
  One implication in the Bill is that there are too many small companies in this country and that we want fewer and larger units. In fact, 28 firms in this country are responsible for about 50 per

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  cent., of the manufacturing assets. This does not include the nationalised industries, although there is the prospect of more nationalisation even if the Government are not now prepared to put nationalisation into their election manifesto. Instead, they put it in the Gas Bill and the Electricity Bill. They are giving powers to the nationalised industries to go into the oil business and to engage in the manufacture of electrical plant and so on. In other words, the monopolies are likely to grow in the nationalised sector if the Government have their way.
  Apart from that, mergers have been taking place at a very fast rate in the private sector in the last two or three years. It is interesting to note that the Government say in the Bill that they wish to control mergers. The Government have power to control them now, but in recent times we have seen a number of mergers taking place which the Government have not felt it necessary to refer to the Monopolies Commission as it exists at present. They have allowed mergers to go through on the nod in certain circumstances where they have suited Government policies.
  Hon. Members must ask themselves if we are not in danger of allowing bigness to go too far. Our small companies provide a considerable part of our export effort. Furthermore, they are the companies which grow bigger and become the giants of tomorrow. If we believe in enterprise, and if we believe not only in a market economy, as we on this side of the House do, but also with Hon. Members opposite in a mixed economy, we have to realise that encouragement needs to be given to small companies to enable them to grow. In a Bill of this kind, it would be wrong to discourage the small man who employs, say, 500 or more workers and who can develop by taking over other companies. It may be that we should consider mergers at the lower level as being of more value to the country than mergers at the higher level. Very often mergers at the higher level create a situation where mergers among smaller companies become impossible, because even an amalgamated group of small companies can no longer compete with the giants.
  Mr. Marsh: As far as I know, the Bill does not apply to the sort of company about which the hon. Gentleman is talking. I cannot see the relevance of his argument.
  Mr. Lewis: The Bill seeks to encourage mergers of companies with assets of £10 million or so——
  Mr. Barnett: To which Clause is the hon. Gentleman referring now?
  Mr. Lewis: In so far as the Bill deals with companies——
  Mr. Eric S. Heffer: The hon. Gentleman has the wrong Bill.
  Mr. Lewis: What I would call the middle band of companies is affected by the Bill. In so far as that is so, in my view it also affects indirectly smaller companies in the lower bands.
  The right hon. Lady has brought the nationalised industries within the scope of the Bill. That is acceptable and is a new development. But I imagine that the powers of the individual Ministers who control the nationalised industries will be greater than the powers of the proposed Commission to deal with those industries and that there will be an escape hatch applied to them which will not apply in the private sector.
  We have seen an example in recent days. Before Easter, the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications announced that the cost of the use of the telephone to the general public would be increased. The hon. Lady was challenged about the companies which would be dealt with under the Bill if it was thought that their price structure was wrong. She replied that it would deal with companies which were in a monopoly position or companies which should be able to bring down their prices because of the advantages of the increased technology behind them. This must apply to the Post Office. It is a monopoly. It has all the advantages of modern technological improvements. Instead, we are to have a swingeing increase of prices imposed by the Post Office and backed by Ministers. It is almost a mini-Budget in advance of the Budget proper next week, and it will raise £65 million from the users of the telephone services.

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  This Bill will simply cause an increase of interference with industry. It will not help competition. It will further restrict it. Certainly it will do nothing to keep down prices. None of the policies of this Government has been effective in doing that. Furthermore, it will have no effect on the wages front, because the wages boom has already gone through the roof.
  Hon. Members opposite should find Clause 20 extremely interesting since it makes provision for the enforcement of orders by civil action. In the last few days, we have heard complaints from various trade union leaders and right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite about the policy of my right hon. and hon. Friends in connection with the trade unions. In our policy there is the possibility of civil action against unions who break the law on agreed contracts. Leaders of trade uions and hon. Gentlemen opposite have objected to it. Presumably the Government intend to delete the enforcement procedure from this Bill—or is it really true that they believe in one law for management and another for those who wield great power on the shop floor?
  This Bill is a waste of time, and it is right that we on this side of the House should oppose it. It will simply add to the burdens of industry, which already has enough to do in seeking to increase its own and the country's economic success.
  5.58 p.m.
  Mr. Joel Barnett: I hope that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. Kenneth Lewis) will forgive me if I do not follow him. He seemed to be dealing with a Bill which is not before us at the moment. His main opposition seems to be that he does not like Bills——
  Mr. Kenneth Lewis: That is a good reason.
  Mr. Barnett: Perhaps I might take up the points raised by the right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr). He said that he was opposed to the Bill. However, I thought that his opposition was a bogus one. He told us about the radical changes that he would make in the Monopolies Commission. But he made it clear that the Opposition are in favour of a Monopolies Commission, and
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  the first radical change which he mentioned affected the composition and staffing of the Commission. That was one of his major reasons for a radical change. However, in Schedule 1 of the Bill there is an opportunity for the Minister to vary by order the size of the Commission.
  Does the right hon. Gentleman want the Bill to spell out the names of the members of the Commission? Unless there is a serious reflection on the competence of the members of the present Commission, what does the right hon. Gentleman imagine will be the composition of the new one? If this is the type of radical change in the Commission that he has in mind, it is very odd. If this is a major reason why he wants a change in the Bill and why the Opposition are opposing it, he must forgive us if we find it odd.
  During the five years prior to 1965, the number of inquiries carried out by the Commission under a Tory Government were: 1960, nil; 1961, one; 1962, nil; 1963, two; and 1964, nil. If the Opposition have suddenly found a need for streamlining the Commission in some way, and this is the radical reason for opposing the Bill, I find it strange indeed.
  The only really radical point made was literally shot to pieces almost before the right hon. Gentleman had uttered it. That was the point about the registrar of monopolies. This great new idea and radical reason for opposing the Bill was shot down by his hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) who asked, "Where will you find this Archangel Gabriel?" The hon. Gentleman is right. When I intervened and said that the right hon. Gentleman would take away from the Minister the right to initiate references, he said that he might consider allowing the Minister that power. We may be told later, but I think that was the only radical change of real substance, other than wanting the opportunity to impose tariff reductions.
  Does the right hon. Gentleman want the Bill to set out and specify on which particular goods it will impose tariff reductions as a deterrent to companies in this country? If this is the Opposition's thinking on radical changes in a Monopolies Commission set-up, I reiterate that this is surely a bogus opposition.

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  Presumably the real argument, to which reference was made by the right hon. Gentleman, is the whole question of the amount of intervention in the market which was perhaps best summed up by the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph)—this was referred to in another context by my right hon. Friend opening the debate—in the interview, if one can call it that, which appeared in the Financial Times on 16th March this year. I say "if one can call it that", because, as my right hon. Friend pointed out, most of the interview consisted of the right hon. Gentleman pointing out that he had not quite made up his mind, that he was leaving options open, and that he had not decided, on every question put to him. He said that the major way that he would deal with mergers would be by disclosure. In that context the right hon. Gentleman said:
  "Management will then either have to improve the performance of an activity that is shown year after year to be disastrous, or sell it off, or close it down."
  I suppose that this sums up the philosophy of the Opposition. They will wait year after year until they see how the market decides to allow these companies to pursue their policies. Then, eventually, if it turns out that they are that bad, and if there are still some assets left for somebody to take over and deal with, then the market economy will have allowed it to happen. This is the way they would see the economy running.
  This is precisely what they did and to what we were led in 1964—leaving companies year after year to be run in a way which was clearly to the detriment of the national economy.
  I say that it is a bogus opposition because I do not believe that the Opposition are really opposed to the idea of a Monopolies Commission. Any Government must have the right to intervene to check abuse of market powers. This is why I give my support to that part of the Bill setting up a Monopolies Commission. But, with that right and my support, certain questions follow the setting up of such a commission.
  First, the definition of what we mean by a monopoly. In a small country like ours the definition is somewhat different from what might be expected elsewhere. The world is our market, and our market
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  is ever more becoming the world's. The danger of dominance becomes less in these circumstances. This is why, whilst we have a large number of what, by any definition we have known in the past, would be called monopolies, we do not in every case ask the Monopolies Commission to investigate, for the obvious reason that many do not require to be investigated.
  Nevertheless, there are cases where the public interest is involved and so one comes to the question of what is the public interest and how it is defined. My right hon. Friend tried to give a definition. Clause 31 gives some criteria to the Commission when investigating and reporting on any matter referred to it. However, nothing is said about the criteria that the Minister would use in deciding whether the public interest is involved for the purpose of making a reference.
  Taking the criteria in Clause 31(2) which may operate against the public interest, the Commission must have regard to

  "(a) the production, treatment and distribution of goods and the provision of services, by the most efficient and economical means…

  (b) the organisation of industry and services in such a way that their efficiency is progressively increased, new enterprise, and new investment is encouraged and costs are minimised;

  (c) the best distribution and most effective use of labour, materials and capital assets".

  According to those criteria, there is hardly a company in this country which would not be operating against the public interest. Few companies are that efficient. Nevertheless, these are the criteria for the Commission when investigating and reporting. The criteria for the Minister in deciding whether to make a reference are much narrower. We accept this. But precisely how narrow and what they should be is not easy to define.
  Since 1965, the number of inquiries has grown. There were two in 1965, 10 in 1966, and six in each of the years 1967, 1968 and 1969. Those were under the wider scope of the 1965 Act. Those figures indicate that only a small number of companies is likely to be referred to the Commission. That is because there is generally little abuse of monopoly powers in the narrow sense. In the wider sense of Clause 31 there is clearly abuse

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  in terms of uneconomical use of assets. The reason there is no abuse of monopoly powers is not because of some desire on the part of companies to serve the public interest; it is to a large extent because of the deterrent effect of the powers of a Monopolies Commission. Without those powers I wonder whether companies would consider their duty to the public interest to a greater extent than their own interests.
  I come now to where the power should lie in the making of a reference. This is where I come to the important point made by the right hon. Gentleman about the possibility of setting up a body outside this House with power to initiate references. It is worth considering whether this House, through a Minister, should no longer have that power. The right hon. Gentleman made it clear, initially, that what he had in mind was that a Minister should have power only to veto, not to initiate, references, although in an answer to an intervention of mine he quickly decided that maybe he would allow the Minister to have power to initiate.
  I am reluctant to take power away from this House and put it into the hands of somebody else to decide when a monopoly, or possible monopoly, should be investigated. If that happened, it would mean that the House would be able to say something about it only when the report came out.
  I am not necessarily happy about the idea that a reference should be made by a Minister without the House having any say in it other than being able to question the Minister at Question Time. I think that we should consider the possibility of allowing the House to query the very reference itself. I should not be prepared to consider the right hon. Gentleman's idea of removing some of the power from the House by taking away from the Minister the right to initiate a reference on his own. I think that it is worth considering whether the House should have the right to question the Minister rather more strongly merely than at Question Time about his decision to initiate a reference.
  Mr. J. Bruce-Gardyne: I have listened with interest to the hon. Gentleman's argument. He says that he would object to a registrar of mono-
  606
  polies not being answerable to the House. Why does that objection apply, when a similar objection does not apply to the Registrar of Restrictive Practices, who is in a similar position?
  Mr. Barnett: Here we are starting something, a whole investigation. We are asking the Commission to investigate and report, without the House having decided that that should be done. We all recognise that there could be cases in which there should be an investigation, but the registrar may not want it.
  Equally, there could be cases in which the House may not want an investigation. I have in mind the present I.C.I.-Viyella situation. It may be that a lengthy inquiry is not necessary, but merely a quick one, without a report from the Monopolies Commission. The registrar, on the other hand, might decide to go through the whole lengthy business of an investigation and a Monopolies Commission report. There are serious objections to leaving this power in the hands of somebody outside.
  I come to the question of how the power should be exercised. Obviously, it must be exercised effectively by an adequate sized commission. Schedule 1 of the Bill gives the Minister power to vary the size of the Commission. I referred to this on a previous occasion, and I am happy to see this provision in the Bill.
  The question then arises of how frequently one should expect the Commission to carry out investigations, and how many investigations there should be. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay), the former President of the Board of Trade, introduced his Bill in 1965 he said that perhaps companies having more than half of a market should always be investigated. I therefore tabled a Question to find out how many such companies there were, and how many had been investigated. I was told that there were about 156 companies.
  Following the receipt of that information, I was told by an hon. Member that he thought that one company had been missed out. He seemed a little upset about it. But even if there were only 156 companies, we know that only 10 were investigated. I understand and accept that because I cannot state that

  607
  because those 156 companies have control of more than half a market they should be investigated. Clearly, one must look at each case on its merits. That is why this is a clear case in which pragmatism, and not dogmatism, should be the order of the day. As I say, one must look at each case on its merits.
  We need to look at more companies, not in the narrow sense, but in the sense to which I have referred before; namely, in the wider economic sense that so many of them are failing the nation. The danger is not that we are investigating too many companies, but that the deterrent effect of the Bill could work against the wider public interest by causing stagnation in the board room. That is why, when the right hon. Member for Mitcham referred to the effect of the market on the board rooms of the country, and told us how, without what the Government were doing they would go ahead and not be enervated, I though that many board rooms would not recognise themselves from the right hon. Gentleman's description. Certainly, they would have have done prior to 1964, when one saw what had happened after 13 years of freedom from a Labour Government.
  There is still the possibility of stagnation in the board rooms if we rely too much on a Monopolies Commission and the work that it can do. This is the real argument for the I.R.C. and its work in the opposite direction. This is why we need an I.R.C. We must have the stimulus of this kind of organisation which will do the work of encouraging the right sort of merger. I should like to see the corporation given further stimulus, because the work of any monopolies and mergers commission can have only a marginal effect on efficiency.
  If a monopolies and mergers commission can have only a marginal effect, the prices and incomes part of the Bill will have a non-existent effect on efficiency. The tragedy of the prices and incomes part of the Bill is not just that we are back to square one. It is that we are back to pre-square one.
  I do not speak as someone who wants legislation on prices and incomes. I did not vote for it. I speak as one who wants a prices and incomes policy, but not for a short-term manipulation to deal with the so-called wage explosion. There is as
  608
  much nonsense talked about that as there was by the right hon. Gentleman about many other things this afternoon. The talk ignores, for example, what is happening to our international competitors who have similar problems. In Europe, for example, we find this so-called wage explosion. Not only do they have the same problem, but they have failed to deal with it, in precisely the same way as we have.
  I do not pretend that the level of wage increases is not serious. Of course it is, but one could have a more serious situation. One could have no inflation at all, as there was in the 'twenties and 'thirties and we know what happened to the economy in those days. I do not see inflation as being quite so bad as some hon. Gentlemen opposite do, because for me, inflation, the balance of payments, the £, or the parity of it, are not at the head of my list of economic priorities, certainly not at the expense of economic growth and full employment.
  But when all the facts have been stated about a wage explosion, and when all the demands for action have been made by all the Press commentators, we see that at the end of these learned articles no new way is suggested of dealing with the problem, for the simple reason that there is no new way of dealing with it.
  When we realise that there is no new miracle method by which to deal with the prices and incomes part of our economy, we realise, also, that the trouble with the prices and incomes part of the Bill is that it has lost sight of the objective. It is perhaps worth reminding the House, if only briefly, of what my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. George Brown) did way back in 1964. He came to the House with a statement of intent, signed by the leaders of both sides of industry. It is worth recalling at least part of that statement. Paragraph 10 stated:
  "We therefore undertake, on behalf of our members: to encourage and lead a sustained attack on the obstacles to efficiency, whether on the part of management or of workers, and to strive for the adoption of more rigorous standards of performance at all levels; to co-operate with the Government in endeavouring, in the face of practical problems, to give effective shape to the machinery that the Government intend to establish for the following purposes:"
  It went on to deal with prices and incomes, and so forth.

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  I am sure that the gentleman from both sides of industry who signed that declaration are honourable men and meant what they said. But they found that, while in theory it sounded fine, in practice it did not work out quite so easily. The trouble was that we tried to force them to use that policy for short term economic ends. The question now is how we are to achieve the objective set out in that document.
  We shall not do so by the Bill. The one thing wrong with it on prices and incomes is that it ignores the traumatic effect of the last 5½ years. That is why we are back to worse than square one. We cannot start in the middle as if nothing had happened. We have to start all over again. A prices and incomes policy, we have always said, is impossible to impose. Willing co-operation is needed. But if the leaders of industry who signed that document in 1964 really meant it, that co-operation must be sought all over again. We shall not help to get it by what is in this Bill. The sooner we make a start on seeking that co-operation, the sooner we will arrive at some form of solution.
  Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Before the hon. Gentleman sits down——
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) has sat down.
  6.21 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke: The hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) reserved most of his fire for Part II of the Bill. The whole question we have to decide is whether it is right to marry the remains of the Prices and Incomes Board to the Monopolies Commission. It is clear from the speeches today that the answer is "No", and that is why we are voting against the Bill. It is as simple as that. Part II gives the Government powers to make all sorts of investigations, although very few powers to make any orders, certainly none on wages.
  I regard this marriage as very damaging to the Monopolies Commission, which has won golden opinions from all those all over the world interested in the question of market domination throughout its 24 years of existence. I do not
  610
  want to see anything done to injure that reputation. I fear that by foisting the rump of the Prices and Incomes Board on to the Commission its reputation will be damaged.
  There is an excellent report by the O.E.C.D. entitled "Market Power and Law" which no doubt the Minister of State has read. It gives the Monopolies Commission a very good bill of health. Why spoil that record by attaching to the Commission what we regard as not only useless, but, as the hon. Member said, dangerous powers? There is, of course, great danger in attaching to the Commission any taint of political intervention.
  There is, in the question of market dominance, a great dispute in the world as between what are called the "structural" approach and the "conduct" approach. The Americans and one or two others have the former. They look at the market and the people in it and, whether those people behave well or badly, they say, "No. They have too much potential power"—or even, "They may have too much potential power"—"and whether they wield it well or badly or at all they have to be divested."
  We have the conduct approach—very much so. This is to say, even where an organisation has as much as 90 per cent., as in the case of B.I.C.C., of the market, if, on the whole, its conduct is considered to be good by the Commission it is not subjected either to price fixing or divesting procedures or anything like that. Again, this study of the various methods by which the various countries treat this difficult question comes out on the whole in our favour The conduct approach avoids all sorts of difficulties, although, of course, it has all sorts of dangers. The difficulties it avoids are such things as the definition of the market, whether by geography or by product.
  In the case of the American system, hundreds of days are spent in first of all defining what the geographical market should be, whereas, for the Monopolies Commission, this is already defined by the Government, who have to operate within the wording of the parent Act, which says that
  "…the market shall be the United Kingdom or any substantial part thereof…"
  As far as I know, there has never been any problem as to what constitutes a

  611
  substantial part of the United Kingdom for this purpose.
  Even more difficult in the structural system is the definition of product. By defining the product, one almost gets the answer one wants. For example, if one defines the product as footwear, one will probably find that few people have a large or too large a slice of the market. But if one defines the product as children's footwear, or as ladies' footwear, or as gentlemen's footwear, one may well find the answer to be entirely different. Therefore, the defining of the market in both these senses is crucial. It takes a very long time and I think that the conduct system by which the Government predetermine these definitions is much more practical.
  There are many other advantages of our system. They all depend absolutely upon public confidence in the impartiality of their operation because they give the Government an enormous say—much more than in the European systems and certainly much more than in the North American systems. I fear that, by the Bill, the opportunities for abuse by the Government are greatly increased.
  For example, my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) suggested that the time had come to take the question of references to some extent outside the sole purview of the Government. I believe that he suggested this much for the reasons I have given. The conduct system is only tolerable if the whole system is operated absolutely judicially because here there is no method of private enforcement. In many other systems, private companies, if they feel they are injured by monopolists or mergers, have an independent source of reference to the Commission or court or whatever it may be.
  If the Government of the country do not choose to operate—for example, in the case of the Federal Trade Commission in the United States—then a private concern has powers of access to the sources of power and can initiate inquiries or suits as it chooses. That is true of many other systems. Here, it is not true, so far. Since it is not true, it is all the more important that whatever Government agency does the initiations it should act entirely judicially.
  612
  That, of course, has been very seriously doubted during recent years in the case of this Government, particularly over the recent episode of the I.C.I. bid for Viyella and Carrington and Dewhurst. If there had been a power of private reference or the power of a registrar, he would have put that question of the domination of the fibre manufacturers, both actual and potential, upon the textile industry, into a proper perspective. We were told that that was not done because speed was necessary.
  Instead of that, a political organisation was set up—I am not sure whether the Minister of State was a member, and, of course, I would trust him, personally, absolutely—a political tribunal was erected ad hoc to do a job which, for the sake of the world, and not just this country, must appear to be completely above political suspicion. There were people involved in this who are not British subjects and who look upon our law and practice hitherto in this matter as being judicial in its approach if not in its form.
  That is why the Bill is yet another nudge in the wrong direction. By slapping on to the Monopolies Commission the prices and incomes functions, which are extremely political—as we have known from the last five years' searing and bitter experiences—it does something to detract from the high reputation of the Commission. Also, the addition to the powers of the Monopolies Commission of references into absolute size, irrespective of market domination and monopoly is another push in that direction.
  There has never been, in any of the systems and structures dealing with market power and the law anywhere in the world power to examine on the grounds of absolute size. To quote one sentence from page 60 of the definitive work to which I referred:
  "It appears from the cases that criteria of absolute size have never been applied in order to determine the existence of market dominance or of market power in general."
  That is to say, we in this country are starting on a completely new and uncharted sea, completely new and more drastic and more interventionist even than in the Sherman and Clayton Acts in the United States, which are regarded as horrors by those who wish to monopolise
  Mr. Dell: I intervene only on a question of fact. On page 163, in paragraph 395, the hon. and learned Gentleman will find that, in Germany, there is a size criterion of notification.
  Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: There may be a size criterion for notification, but there has never been a case which has been referred on the grounds of size. It is not surprising, because, if there is no prima facie case of monopoly power, market domination or anything like that, the only grounds can be of inquiry into efficiency.
  If we are to have a general roving commission into the efficiency or behaviour of large companies, whether market dominating or not, it seems to me that that should be in an entirely separate Bill and conducted by an entirely separate organisation. I should be strongly against it, but if it has to be done, we should not dilute or pervert the Monopolies Commission for something way beyond its functions. This is my objection to the Bill and I believe it to be a serious one.
  I had imagined that some more intellectual defence of this great departure would have been given by the Secretary of State. I had thought that she would say, for example, that the problem of conglomerates could not be dealt with under the present Monopolies Commission's powers. I was prepared with a long argument to explain how they could be. But she has not used that argument which I had imagined would at least have crossed her mind.
  The second intellectual argument which I had imagined the right hon. Lady would produce was the argument of Professor Corwin Edwards, which I have no doubt the Minister of State knows, that market power can no longer be defined, that it has become such an impalpable could suffusing the whole business of the world that it is impossible to reduce it to a legal definition of any sort, so these wide-ranging powers have to be taken. But none of that was argued. All that was said was that, in vague terms, the Labour Government had already made industry so virile that it had to be made more virile yet and that this was a great instrument of virility. There is not a sufficient argument or defence of what I regard as a hybrid measure. Like all hybrids, we
  614
  will find that it has very bad, if any, posterity.
  6.36 p.m.
  Mr. Norman Atkinson: I cannot remember ever having heard the Opposition in such difficulty in trying to criticise a Bill. The opening speeches from both Front Benches were arguing opposite cases, but seemed to be frightened to death of the case they were arguing. My right hon. Friend the First Secretary—I hope that I get the gender right—is an absolute master of the soft sell. But there is a problem there. While she tries to project this concept, trying to placate criticism which may be coming from the C.B.I. or from the other side of industry, she is infuriating the people whom we represent.
  In trying to point out that the thing is not really so sharp-toothed, that it will not make all that difference in terms of intervention, and that industrialists should not be afraid, my right hon. Friend is showing the Labour Movement that this is not a major instrument in projecting some of the policies which we have argued for so long. So there are great difficulties in that argument.
  The Opposition are frightened of being honest and admitting that they are totally non-interventionist in their whole approach to the management of the economy. Thus they get into the schizophrenic difficulty of trying to argue the case both ways. Obviously, the right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) was frightened to death of falling into the arms of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell), in his arguments about free marketeering. The applause which greeted one or two of his comments suggested that the party opposite are free marketeers and base their whole case on that.
  The right hon. Gentleman also said that this could be like the Government throwing a piece of firewood into a fire of industrial relations. If they intervened to freeze a price at the same time as a union was negotiating a wage increase in that industry, he said, there could be an explosion. The unions would welcome that, because part of their case is that we should try to negotiate wages against price ceilings. By negotiating wages in this way, if we were pushing against price ceilings, we would compel

  615
  the representatives of industry to concede a wage advance at the expense of dividends. We are not afraid of that: we would welcome it. However, many of us feel that it is likely to be a theoretical aspect only.
  I turn to the rôle of the new Commission to review wage structures in some parts of industry. This is to be welcomed, because it gives us an opportunity to consider some of the problems that have arisen in sectors of the economy in which wages are paid from taxation, particularly nursing. This could be a new era for negotiating wages in medicine, for nurses and doctors, just as my right hon. Friend pointed out that it could provide a new method for negotiating the salaries of teachers and university staffs. In this respect, the Bill, also, is to be welcomed.
  There is a difference of view between the two sides of the House on the question of intervention or non-intervention. My hon. Friends and I are complete interventionists. We therefore regard the Bill as an instrument for intervention, and we welcome it. To us, this is an essential piece of apparatus for intervening in the economy and I hope that, in Committee, the Bill will be strengthened in accordance with, for example, some of the suggestions of the T.U.C.
  Not only the T.U.C., but various sections of the trade union movement, including my union, the A.E.U., have made comments on the Bill. In general, the whole of the Labour Movement supports the Bill, its concepts and purposes. The T.U.C. has made some of its criticisms of the Measure known and it has suggested some additional areas of operation for the proposed Commission.
  The T.U.C. has suggested that the Commission should be strengthened to give it greater opportunity to investigate the accounting practises of multi-national companies in this country. It is also concerned, in connection with multinationals, to see import-export balances investigated, possibly by the Commission. It is to be hoped, therefore, that the new body will be strengthened to give it the ability to investigate questions of this sort.
  Again, on the question of multinationals and other giants in industry, the T.U.C. has pointed to the need for com-
  616
  panies to submit their manpower and investment policies for periods of, say, three to four years ahead. The T.U.C. would like the new Commission to have power to compel companies, and particularly the multi-nations, to submit their manpower policies for the period ahead.
  Next, the T.U.C. believes that the whole system of price intervention should be strengthened. It also suggests that mergers should not be agreed in the absence of an understanding on the redundancy side. I understand that this question is to be discussed in some detail. It is to be hoped that a code applying to mergers and redundancies will be written into the Bill.
  When speaking of what he described as the inadequacy of staffing proposed for the new Commission, the right hon. Member for Mitcham was right to mention the fear about the ability of this body to perform its various functions. I believe—this view is supported by many members of the trade union movement with whom I have discussed the matter—that the C.I.M. should create a pool of leading consultants who could adequately deal with such matters as organisation and methods, work study and cost analysis. There has been great criticism of the P.I.B. in this respect and of some of the investigations that it has made.
  Similarly, there has been some criticism of the policy of employing foreign consultants in this sphere to work in this country. Many of us have never been able to understand why it was necessary to bring in a team of Americans to tell us what was wrong with the Bank of England, or why it was necessary to bring in a crowd of Americans—people who were totally orientated to private enterprise and who understood the code of behaviour of private enterprise in the United States—to tell us what was wrong with the nationalised industries in this country.
  We believe that the new Commission should be strengthened from this point of view because we say that there is a sufficient pool of expertise in Britain—in organisation and methods, work study, cost analysis, and so on—from which we could recruit people to be employed by the Government to undertake investigations of this kind. In other words, we have no need to travel the world looking for consultants to do this job for us.

  617
  We strongly believe that these people should be employed by the Government, remembering that in their investigations they could have contradictory parts to play. For example, while investigating a nationalised industry they might reach conclusions which are critical of one or more sectors of private industry. They might feel inhibited from reaching firm conclusions since their next brief might come from the very section of private industry of which they are critical.
  The right hon. Member for Mitcham spoke of the need for price stability. The trade unions regard this as a priority and are equally concerned about it. They take this view for two main reasons. First, they refute, as I do, the suggestion that price inflation is the direct result of wage increases. This is not necessarily so. Indeed, when speaking of that emotive thing, the so-called wage explosion, we should not forget that the Ford Motor Company recently concluded an agreement for an across-the-board wage increase of about 20 per cent. That company has gone out of its way to point out that its recent price increase of 3 per cent. to 4 per cent. has nothing to do with its concession of a 20 per cent. wage increase.
  The company has detailed why its recent price increase arose and has said that the cost of steel and non-ferrous metals has been basically responsible for it. We should, therefore, congratulate Ford's on conceding a 20 per cent. wage increase and on afterwards arguing that none of it has been passed on to the consumer. Thus, it is not correct to say that the wage claims now being negotiated represent the basis of future price explosions.
  Price inflation hits the wage earner hardest. Inflation during recent years has almost cancelled out wage advances gained by organised labour. In 1969, wages went up by 8 per cent. and take-home pay rose by about 6 per cent., but the index of retail prices rose by 5 per cent. Therefore, when one looks at the overall picture, organised workers in general have made little advance in terms of improvement in their overall living standards. Trade unions basically are more concerned about price stability than the actual amount being negotiated in the wage packet since they realised that their
  618
  efforts are being eroded. In the matter of living standards wage negotiators are having to run like mad to stand still. This is an important point which should be emphasised.
  The T.U.C. comments on the Bill touched on the question whether price inflation could be curbed by use of an instrument such as this legislation as a deliberate act of policy. They mentioned the necessity for strict surveillance of Government purchases, the size of which and the nature of overall procurement policy have an enormous influence on prices. The second consideration relates to the efficiency audit, which trade unionsists welcome since we believe that there is an absolute need far an efficiency yardstick by which we can understand what is happening in the nationalised industries. It is in the interests of wage earners that this should be done.
  Thirdly, there is the question of maintaining wages against price ceilings. The right hon. Member for Mitcham spoke about throwing firewood into the fire of industrial relations. This again, is a matter of great importance to the trade unions. The fourth matter relates to the intensification of price consciousness in the retail trades.
  Finally, there is the shift of indirect taxation to direct tax, on which the T.U.C. has made its views clear. I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will get the message when he comes to make his statement to the House.
  Mr. James Dickens: My hon. Friend rightly pointed out that a number of elements, other than increases in money wages, cause inflation. Does he recall that the National Economic Development Council, in its 1968 Report on Movements in Prices, Productivity and Incomes, drew attention to the fact that the biggest single reason for the increase in the cost of living since 1964 has been the increases in direct taxation, followed by increases in import prices and increases in general domestic costs, and that the endeavour to secure a high return on capital has been by far the biggest single element?
  Mr. Atkinson: I am obliged to my hon. Friend for making that point. I will not paint the lily by going into what

  619
  was said by the Leader of the Opposition. What my hon. Friend said is quite correct. I would add that the whole of the case was put in the debate in the House before the Easter Recess, when we presented the idea for a Socialist Budget, has been borne out by experience.
  It is an important part of trade union concern to be involved in price stability, particularly retail prices. Price inflation over the years has prevented any radical revision of the share of the cake that goes to wage earners. There has been little movement over a period of 40 years between the share that goes to rent, interest and profit and other unearned income and that which goes to wages. Over a period of about 30 years there has been a shift of about 4 per cent. This is a matter about which we are most concerned when trying to devise some method of slowing down price inflation.
  We all recognise that rigid price control is costly and unworkable. At the moment only one commodity is controlled by the Government, and that is milk. This may seem surprising when one hears discussions about what should be the Government's attitude on the control of prices. There is an argument taking place over the price of bread, but the Government have no control over the price of bread, and this must be remembered.
  Housewives are often advised that if they wish to cut the cost of living they should take the trouble to shop around. But that is not as easy as it seems. To shop around effectively one would have to have an immense intelligence network in the district, with a member of the family going to the shops and radioing the information back to mother, saying that so-and-so shop had taken 3d. off tinned fruit. Another aspect to be borne in mind is that few cut-price goods, as many traders will confess, are genuine price reductions.
  The question is to find a sensible and attractive voluntary scheme to influence retail prices. I believe that this is possible and I would make one suggestion to the House. I have discussed this idea with industry and with the distributive trades, who thought it a good idea, and it also has trade union support. I would
  620
  suggest a scheme of merit awards on the lines of an adaptation of the Royal Warrant system. At present, a few traders and manufacturers are granted permission by the Queen to affix to their price labels the Royal insignia and the use of the words, "By Appointment". This, for obvious reasons, is a much sought-after privilege, but I believe it is a privilege that should be earned. I feel that we could replace that system by a merit award scheme under the auspices of the commission which we are discussing today.
  The criteria would involve price stability over a reasonable period and guarantees about weight and quality. The awards would be reproduced on labels on goods, including the maximum price registered. Such a scheme could be supported by a massive Press and television campaign, which would obviously bring sales benefits to those who exhibited a merit award on their products.
  This could be totally voluntary and would be an attractive way of over-coming some of the difficulties. It is in line with the Consumer Council's ideas. The Consumer Council has had a lot to say about this in many reports, notably one in 1968, which said:
  "Another problem caused by the end of R.P.M. is the frequent lack of the yardstick of a manufacturer's recommended price to enable consumers to measure the size of the bargain they are being offered when retailers advertise cut prices. In January, 1968 the Council sent a memorandum to the Monopolies Commission which is enquiring into the practice of recommending resale prices. In it, we argued that manufacturers should be allowed to tell retailers and the public the 'usual' retail prices of their goods. But two safeguards are needed.
  The practice should not be allowed to be used as a means of maintaining unjustifiably large retail margins.
  Where 'usual' prices are used as a means of advertising the bargains, the prices crossed out should genuinely be those at which substantial amounts of goods are sold."
  That is in line with many of the ideas floated by the Council.
  Another aspect of the problem is the coming of decimal currency. Certainly, during the first few years of change-over it would help considerably to have printed on price labels and other marks on products the maximum price and its conversion into decimal currency. That would help to give considerable confidence that the cost of living was not

  621
  accelerating in the way that many people suggest. It would be an attractive scheme which should be considered by the Government. I hope that we shall have an opportunity in Committee to look at some of these suggestions.
  If the Bill is strengthened in the way proposed by the T.U.C. and many trades unions, it could be a tremendous instrument for us to intervene in the economy, making the kind of adjustments we have argued about for so long and making it possible to double the rate of economic growth. That is why we are concerned with these things. It is because of our dissatisfaction at the rate of growth and because we as a Labour Movement believe that what we should try to achieve is a high-wage economy with stable prices. It is my belief that the first Government which can produce that for this country will be in office for many years to come.
  7.3 p.m.
  Mr. David Howell: I resist the temptation to comment at great length on the speech of the hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson), except to express surprise that he was not a little more cheerful. Perhaps if the hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Dickens) had been "on" tonight he would have been more cheerful. After all, for hon. Members opposite this should be a rather cheerful occasion. You, Mr. Speaker, and I and many hon. Members, have been here for four or five years listening to the doleful appeals of hon. Members opposite to their Front Bench to get rid of the income legislation. Now it has gone and this is the wake. I should have expected a little more cheerfulness in the comments of the hon. Member. Unless his gloom is under-pinned by the certain knowledge that, now the whole dotty paraphernalia of the Department of Employment and Productivity is to be turned into other channels, it will be no more effective as it has been over the years of incomes restraint.
  That is my fear, and if I sound gloomy it is for that reason. I mistrust the ability or capacity of the new sponsoring department, the Department of Employment and Productivity, to pursue desirable aims of public policy in this field in an
  622
  effective way. I believe, as my hon. Friends believe, that powerful instruments of public policy are needed to spur competition. I agree most strongly with my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) that competition is not a natural state of affairs and that constant intervention is needed to maintain a competitive situation, and constant watchfulness.
  In this sense, the distinction which the hon. Member for Tottenham tried to draw between hon. Members opposite whom he described as interventionists and those on this side of the House whom he regards as non-interventionists is unreal. This problem requires very sophisticated consistent and systematic intervention.
  Those in favour of intervention in the modern situation cannot just pass a few laws and sit back; they must be interventionists. This is particularly needed—it is a new phenomenon of the 'sixties and 'seventies—when it comes to policing, and spotting the areas where the actions of Government, often unconsciously as customer and in procurement policies, or through statutes and fiscal policies, the full significance of which may not be clearly seen, stultifies competition. The task is to spot where the process is adding to the constipation of the competitive system and where necessary changes should be made in the public and private sectors. This cannot be done just by a Monopolies Commission or the Commission for Industry and Manpower idea proposed in this Bill.
  The hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) put it very clearly. He made quite clear that this alone is not sufficient if we are talking seriously about competitive policy in the modern situation.
  Of course we must look at many areas where there is an abuse of market power. Such areas are very difficult to define. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cook) showed with legal precision what the immense difficulties are. It is necessary to have a Monopolies Commission instrument of a strengthened and streamlined kind such as was suggested by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath), less than two years ago, to cope with this limited aspect of competitive policy.

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  But other things are additionally necessary. Earlier in the debate someone made the gibe that perhaps there has been a change of mind on this side of the House and that we give greater attention to these matters than we did five years ago. Of course more attention is necessary because there has grown up in the last few years a great obsession with the cult of bigness. I do not say that that has been the inheritance exclusively of the Labour Government. It has been very much a feature of the early and middle sixties. The Labour Government's Minister of Technology, with his ever-boyish desire to be on the latest trend and in the latest fashion, early became an adherent of bigness. The voice of industrial policy as it emanates from Whitehall and the Ministry of Technology is a voice in favour of bigness and the need for large firms. We heard more about that from the right hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Frederick Lee) this afternoon. I am not sure that he was right nor that the clichés about bigness are right any more.
  As we move into the seventies, small firms with high innovation, the high technology firms, and even firms such as motor manufacturers, will have immense opportunities. Not bigness but smallness and flexibility will be the key qualities. Yet for the moment the Government's prevailing philosophy is bigness. That makes it more and more necessary to have sharp instruments for anti-monopoly and for competitive policy.
  I may be offering hostages to fortune, but I think the Prices and Incomes Board and the kind of analyses it undertook in its early days were in some cases, but not all, rather useful. They had a great educative value. In the very early days before the whole organisation became distracted, it was interesting to see the analytical approach to industries where competition should be working and was not. Analyses was needed to show the fault lay within Government policy, or Government industrial relations, to show where a competitive system was not operating. But it all went sour, and for the same reason the whole "Neddy" exercise went sour. They took on the task of trying to cope with an incomes policy. They took the poisoned chalice, drank from it. From then on the whole
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  organisation had withered and writhed and produced less and less effective reports.
  So I concede that the analytical approach to the patterns of competition in industry which the early P.I.B. reports attempted to present was necessary and useful and desirable. So the question arises and is presented to us by this Bill of who carries out this function and under the sponsorship of which Ministries? I suppose that in a logical world or in mildly sensible Whitehall the functions would be carried out under the sponsorship or under the paternal umbrella of the Ministry of Technology, or the Ministry of Industry as the Ministry of Technology has become.
  The difficulty here is the one to which I have already pointed—that the Minister of Technology is the voice of big industry. It is at the bigness end of White-hall. To put the agencies under the umbrella of a Ministry which is dedicated to bigness in all forms and to pushing industries together and calling things industries which are not industries—something like the ball-bearing industry or that sort of concept—and imagining that they will stay together and be big and competitive because they are big—to mix that with these new agencies would be nonsense.
  The Ministry of Technology is not merely a poacher—as opposed to a game-keeper—in private industry, being in favour of big private industry. It is actively supporting the activity of the public sector in monopoly practices, by, for example, creating bodies like the British Research and Development Corporation which will drive private enterprise research out of business or by supporting the Post Office Corporation as the Post Office suppliers which has already driven private enterprise suppliers of Post Office equipment out of business.
  Mr. Eric Lubbock: The hon. Gentleman must be aware if he has read the Green Paper that the B.R.D.C. will seek to contract research work from private industry but that if private industry does not choose to place those contracts with the B.R.D.C., they will not exist. How can it therefore be poaching from private industry?
  Mr. Howell: That is the theory. As the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) knows, the idea is to attract £18 million worth of private research. But if, as time goes by, this is not forth-coming, then the definition which the Minister has adhered to of the research being done at full cost will become more and more eroded under pressure to provide the work for these facilities. But we do not want a debate on another Green Paper at this stage. This is my view and it lies behind the point I am putting forward.
  For these reasons it seems to me that the Ministry of Technology could not be the home of the new Monopolies Commission, the C.I.M. or the new instruments of competition needed in today's Government. Where then should it lie? The Government have come forward with their answer that it should lie with the Department of Employment and Productivity. What distresses me about this kind of proposition and the way that it is brought forward—and it applies to other things, like the British Research and Development Corporation—is the absence of any sign of application of the Fulton principles adhered to and welcomed by the Prime Minister on behalf of the Government. The Fulton principle was that in organisational change and adaptation and allocation of functions to civil servants and to departments in future there would be a cardinal rule which would be: define the objectives, look at the job first, analyse the function, see what one was trying to do and then create an organisation as far as possible best suited to carry that out.
  One has only to have a brief look at the sort of goulash of functions put into this Bill and take a brief glance at the rumbling squabbling between Ministers and Secretaries of State which went on behind the decision to hustle these functions away from the Board of Trade into the Department of Employment and Productivity, or under that Department, to realise that in this case Fulton was pushed out in the cold. In this case there was no analysis of objectives, no definition of functions and no clear recommendation of the right organisational structure.
  I do not know whether the Civil Service Department were allowed in on the act but if so it certainly has not laid its mark on it. This is clear if one looks at
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  some of the main functions which the Bill suggests that the C.I.M. is supposed to perform—the consumer protection functions and the guardianship against the abuse of market power. There seems to me no reason why these should belong with the D.E.P. It has no tradition in that field and I doubt whether it is going to have the skills or the staff to operate effectively in that field. I believe most strongly that my right hon. Friend is right in saying that a separate registrar is long overdue; which must not be completely subject to ministerial discretion. The problems of accountability to this House can be resolved in a wav which will make for greater accountability than we have at present with the decision to refer made behind closed doors.
  Then there is the competition policy which is a much broader and tougher question and the whole question of strengthening company law and policing the operation of company law and of carrying out the activities of spotting where the Government in all its industrial policies and customer rôles will be against or discouraging the competitive process. Does this belong with the D.E.P.? It has not the tradition of handling competition policy or the vigorous pursuit of competition. If such a tradition exists anywhere I suppose it is in the old Board of Trade which is now being divested of these matters. There again I cannot see a case for these matters going to the D.E.P.
  Finally, there is the other part of the mixed bag—the whole question of price stabilisation for which the C.I.M. is some-how supposed to provide. This of course is the vacuum area where there is nothing. Indeed there was nothing before although there were the words of the incomes policy. I say here, and again I may part company with some of my hon. Friends, that I do not think any political party in Britain nor any political party in continental Europe has the answer to the question which the right hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Frederick Lee) seemed to be demanding to the whole question of rapid inflation in modern society. I do not think—I am suspicious on panaceas—there is a total answer. Some of it may lie in a monetary policy, but one has looked a little askance, particularly in the last two years, as the Treasury has gone dotty on monetary policy in the

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  belief that by operating on the money supply, wages and prices will be miraculously slowed down. One ought not to pass without commenting that during this year of so-called stringent monetary control, wages and prices have gone roaring up faster than ever. Of course, we must have a sensible monetary policy and proper monetary discipline, but the whole answer to inflation does not lie there. It does not lie in the incomes policy panacea either. It does not lie in the effort which the right hon. Lady, the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. George Brown) and other right hon. Gentlemen opposite have been making for years to peddle the incomes policy like a religious trinket off a tray which will solve the inflation problem. This panacea approach makes no more sense.
  If we are to find an answer, and if we are to look beyond the absurdity of the C.I.M. and consider other sources from which we may begin to draw an answer, it may be that the hon. Member for Tottenham had something. We must go back to the rather unfashionable question of the rate of growth of output. This is embarrassing for the Government to talk about because it is not very big—only 2 per cent. last year—and it has been pooh-poohed by those who say that output is not everything, that there is the smell of flowers of spring to be added to the rate of growth and that one must not be too much of a "growthman". But, however we define output, whether including leisure or not, this I believe is where our eyes must turn.
  It is not the least surprising that, with a 2 per cent. rate of growth of output last year, there has been an enormous rate of inflation. The point is made even stronger if we consider, not merely output, but the rate of increase of industrial investment which, over the last five years, since 1964, has been 0·2 per cent., a minute amount—one-tenth of the rate of increase of industrial investment between 1951 and 1964. Against that background, it is not surprising that there has been a very rapid rate of increase in price inflation. For it is in innovation and in new products, in the input of imagination, ideas and equipment into making products that the hope for price stability lies.
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  No much can be done by campaigning against wage increases. Of course, I agree with my right hon. Friends that the wage situation is out of control because a general neurosis has seized the land. Everyone believes that prices will go up and therefore more wages must be grabbed. But, on the whole, the rate of wage inflation last year of 8, 9 or 10 per cent. seems to be about the norm in Western countries, the kind of wage increase which is unavoidable and even possibly desirable in Western economies. If this is a low wage economy, as it is, and if higher wages are desirable, as they are, wage inflation of 8, 9 or 10 per cent. is not too disastrous. But it is certainly disastrous if there is only a 2 per cent. increase in output and a 0·2 per cent. rate of increase in investments. It is disastrous if wage increases continue without output rising and if, therefore, prices are roaring upwards.
  When an hon. Member opposite said that this country is no different from other countries, he was right about the rate of wage increase, but utterly wrong about the rate of output increase and therefore utterly wrong about the consequent rate of inflation, which is intolerably high in this country.
  It is here, and not in the five years wasted energy in rampaging against wage rates, that the answer lies. It is in innovation and in the application of imagination and the motivation of management and incentive to management to make that innovation and not in the restriction of wages that the answer lies. And of course it lies in a structure of trade unions and labour relations which allows that high investment and rapid innovation to take place.
  The question is: how will these things come about? Will the C.I.M help? Of course it will not. It does not even begin to do so. Will the C.I.R. help? Of course it will not. It is without teeth, a busted flush. The Government made a fatal mistake in not accepting Mr. Andrew Shonfield's recommendation in the Donovan Report. If they had done so, they might have had some success in reshaping trade unionism to cope with a high innovation economy.
  Does the answer lie in the Department of Employment and Productivity? There are few of us left who have much hope in that direction. Inflation at the present

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  rate—5 per cent. last year, with a 7 per cent. increase in food prices—is a symptom of a dying Government, rather like a dying man who loses control of his muscles one after the other. I do not believe that it is any use attacking rising prices I have said that to my hon. Friends.
  The root causes of the trouble which people in this country are perfectly capable of looking to beyond the immediate question of rising prices are a low growth of output, an absurdly and desperately low rate of investment, low efficiency, a vast, bulbous and antique public sector and a public administration which neutralises enormous areas of resources within a crazily ineffective and inefficient framework. These are the things to tackle. Shuffling the Monopolies Commission from the Board of Trade to the Department of Productivity, or talking about competition without creating effective instruments of competition, or placating the right hon. Lady's hon. Friends—I suppose that they are her friends—below the Gangway by abandoning the incomes policy will not do.
  I shall vote against the Bill because it symbolises all that is second rate in the present style of government.
  7.26 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Sheldon: The hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. David Howell) called himself an interventionist. We are grateful to know that there are such Members on the benches opposite. But even his interventism would be of a somewhat modest kind compared with the kind which the Government will be forced to go in for to obtain some of the powers required to deal with industry.
  Over the past 20 or 30 years, we have seen a revolution in the attitude of Governments to industry. It has been accelerated since 1964. The normal attitude of Government to industry previously was that the Government should hold the ring and let industry operate within its own confines as best it may. The new philosophy, which we have fully embraced, is that the Government should involve and concern themselves in and, because of its importance to the well-being of this country, must take a more and more prominent part in industry.
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  As long as the people vote for Governments to control the economy effectively, any Government, of whatever party, will be forced by that electoral pressure to take on more and more responsibilities within industry. This is an inescapable consequence. It is inescapable in all Western European countries and even in the United States. As long as prosperity is one of the things for which people vote for Governments, then Governments will involve themselves more and more to make sure that if they have responsibility for matters over which they have no power they will acquire some power in exercising that responsibility.
  The way in which the present Government involved themselves in industry through the Industrial Reorganisation Corporation was splendid. The Bill is one more modest step in this direction. I do not think that we have the relationship between Government and Industry right as yet, but we are beginning to learn and to understand it. I take some comfort from the way in which things are going. In the Government there are a number of Ministers, and there are even a number of civil servants, who are beginning to understand how industry works and how the Government can co-operate with it. In my right hon. Friend the Minister of State at the Department of Employment and Productivity and my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General we have men who have contacts with industry which enable them to under-stand industry's problems. These are developments in the right direction.
  Whether we call this process creeping Socialism, public control, industrial regulation or a statist solution does not matter. The name does not matter. What is inevitable is that these relationships are being established and will go on being established. Even if hon. Members opposite were to form the next Government, they would move in this direction—perhaps not as fast—as they were forced to move throughout the 'fifties.
  There is bound to be a demand for extra staff by the new Commission. I am disappointed to see on page iv from the information which is now compulsory, that it is expected that there will be little or no change in public service man-power as a result of the Bill. As the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hands-worth (Sir Edward Boyle) said, I should

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  have expected some demand for an improved service. I would not have expected a vast increase, but I would have expected a modest increase, and I am rather sorry that we have not seen that.
  All during this Parliament we have seen an increase in the numbers of mergers and a dedication to some of these larger organisations. The advantage of this kind of movement with new industries is more apparent, but our problems in the restructuring of industry, as we moved from a world in which we exported to the Commonwealth as our main customer, to a world in which we export an increasing proportion to other countries, has meant that we have had a larger share of contracting industries than other countries.
  What we have needed to do is not so much organise the industries which are capable of expanding and which we are ready to expand, but rather to devise a new framework for the structure of those industries which were contracting and at the same time try to get the efficiencies and improved methods obtaining in those industries.
  It can be done, but it is not easy. What can be done is that one forms a concentration and closes down the less efficient parts. Because the size is larger, one can re-equip in a more useful way than if one were to leave the individual units to fall back in production. The obvious examples are the railways, the mines and shipbuilding, where there has been concentration. Although they have not always made as much use of it as they should, there has been the chance to modernise, even in a declining industry.
  We see in the Bill the basic dichotomy between the work of the Industrial Reorganisation Corporation and that of the Monopolies Commission. They were the two sides of the scale—one pushing one way and the other pushing the other way. We know that, at present, the Monopolies Commission is rather less in fashion than the I.R.C.
  The hon. and learned Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) said that the Monopolies Commission had won golden opinions. It may have won them from lawyers, but it did not win many from me. I saw it as of considerable importance in its early years, but as we became more and more involved with
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  industry, we found that waiting three or four years for a report was not acceptable. The pace of industrial change today is such that there are not all that many industries in which we are prepared to wait so long for an absolutely precise report.
  By the time a report of that length is produced, the situation has changed and the demand for the report has changed. The great virtue and attractiveness of the National Board for Prices and Incomes was that it could get out a report. It may not have been so accurate or so comprehensive, but it was relevant when it came out. It still had something to say about a situation which was considered important when the reference was made.
  Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Which of the many excellent reports of the Monopolies Commission does the hon. Gentleman say were not relevant when they came out?
  Mr. Sheldon: The Courtalds reference is a very good example. When that subject was referred, it was one of the major problems of the textile industry. By the time the Commission reported, the whole structure of Courtalds was changing. This happens all the time. We must have something which comes out when the issue is still important.
  The interesting thing is that the reason why the I.C.I. bid for Viyella could never have been referred to the Monopolies Commission was that one could not wait several years for that kind of report. One had to take action. So the Monopolies Commission could not be consulted in a large number of issues.
  Therefore, we come to the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Newton (Mr. Frederick Lee), that one of the major problems today is not so much how to prevent monopolies, because there will be a large increase in monopolies, as industrial concentration gathers weight. Not in all—there are many exceptions—but in a large number of areas, industrial concentration is the logical answer.
  If we are to have this, how do we not prevent monopolies—by definition, certain monopolies are advantageous and cannot be prevented—but control them? This is becoming the problem of our

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  time. What worries me about the Bill is that the Department will have responsibility for just one side of the argument—the question of monopolies. When a Department has responsibility for one aspect of the argument, it tends to support that aspect. I hope that this will be carefully examined to ensure that the Department does not become a Department against monopolies and mergers, but that, in some way, it may come to understand the two aspects.
  There has been some reference to the statement that the nature of monopolies is changing, because of the lessening of the barriers between countries. I do not think that monopolies in Britain today will be diminished by our entry of Europe. We will not find that international competition will be a substitute for domestic competition. It will not be an answer, because, if international competition starts invading the British market to such an extent that it has a real effect in promoting vigorous competition, at the very instant that it does that, we shall be forced, as a country, as a House of Commons, to legislate to ensure that our industries do not suffer adversely.
  The Lancashire textile industry is an example. There can be some marginal effects on competition, but not the effects of competition from overseas that we can see in this country arising from internal competition. As imports affect jobs and the economy, as they will, we cannot let imports pour in to produce the market forces which some people would wish to see. Also, as such imports have their effect, as a result of tariffs reduced to encourage such competition, these might make some of our monopolies economically less viable. This, again, no Government could afford to see. So the Government must involve themselves and must establish certain criteria, which are very difficult, to see how we make the monopolies which we are to have efficient and effective. Competition is the perfect test. Without that perfect test, what does one do? How does one replace it with another test?
  In an increasing number of ways now—this is a process which will continue—competition is very much a blunted spur. It is still effective in international trade. Exports from this country compete vigor-
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  ously with exports from Germany, France and elsewhere. There is vigorous and effective international competition, but there is rather less competition in each of the home markets concerned.
  The merits of competition are, first, that it is a spur, though a blunted spur now, and second, that it is a yardstick measuring precisely the effectiveness and efficiency of particular industries. What is difficult is to find ways of replacing competition as the yardstick for measuring efficiency
  One can say, as my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson) did, that there are other methods of one kind and another for judging efficiency, but I am unconvinced by his arguments in this respect, and although I believe that there will have to be much greater attention directed to other methods of establishing and measuring efficiency, I am not hopeful that they will ever be as good as competition. But where we have no choice, where we have a monopoly against which we cannot set the standard of competition, we must make do with rather less adequate methods.
  The most precise method is after all to establish the costs of company A against the costs of company B; if A's costs are less, A is more efficient. Similarly, if one can establish the sales of company A against the sales of company B and show that A's sales are greater, A is more efficient. If more customers go to company A than to company B, company A is more efficient. These are absolute standards readily determined—an excellent yardstick, but, unfortunately, there is a diminishing number of situations in which yardsticks can be used. We need, therefore, to search for other tests. It will not be easy, but whatever we can use will have to be used because these will be the only methods available.
  In the consultative document from the Department of Employment and Productivity, it is said, in paragraph 6, that
  "…the Government believes that the growth of large industrial units has weakened competitive forces and made it necessary to widen the area of public scrutiny."
  We have in the Bill methods for doing just that. I regard as admirable the way in which the Bill allows certain companies to be subject to scrutiny and

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  to disclose certain information which may not otherwise be disclosed.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend will have something to say about the code of conduct on which she is at present negotiating with the C.B.I. This is a valuable method of securing co-operation with industry, to say that there are limits to how precisely one can form legislation so that the Government can work with industry in a common objective, and it is far better to have a legislative framework as a last resort if there is no agreement in the meantime.
  After all, it is somewhat akin to our Guillotine procedure, under which we have a Business Committee which tries to organise matters amicably, but, at the end of the day, failing agreement there is resort to another method. If we can find this sort of relationship with the C.B.I. and with industry so that there is an understanding about what should be disclosed, even though one cannot frame legislative words to fit exactly, and if we can find this way of extending the area of consultation, the outcome will be wholly admirable.
  I should like to see that sort of attention applied particularly to conglomerates, a subject of great concern now, as they are bound to be. One of the most important aspect of conglomerates is that one should be able to identify the various parts of such a company so that one may compare not only the conglomerate with another—for that is meaningless—but parts of the conglomerate with other industries making only that product or those parts of another conglomerate making that product. This kind of comparison is of great importance.
  We still have some way to go, but I am encouraged to see the use of business ratios developing. I looked forward to this when we discussed the original Bill, and I am glad that it is now becoming more widely used, with such ratios as sales as a proportion of total assets or profits as a proportion of total assets being taken for the purpose of comparison between different industries. At last, investment analysts are making use of this method and showing the efficiency of one company as against another.
  Now, the prices and incomes side of it. I have always believed, and still
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  do, that this is an area in which the Government are unable to do much. I think that we have at times over-emphasised what is ever likely to be possible, though I have always believed that this is a method by which we should slowly, step by step, be able to achieve a greater understanding of how the shares should be taken by different sectors of employees. We are still in the same position, and, unless we can find some way of determining the shares, inflation will always be the answer.
  We can, however, operate only within what is possible. I hope that we are here laying the foundations for a later stage. While we should not go beyond what is possible now, at least the educative part of it will be of value. The hope which we had in 1965 may be rekindled, and with, perhaps, some of the dedication which a number of people had then, it may be possible to start again almost from scratch.
  Now, the level of prices and the question of inflation. I believe that there are many misconceptions about the effects of inflation and the inefficiencies arising from inflation. Many of the consequences of inflation are felt because we are relatively unused to it. We are not really familiar with how to adjust to inflation as a more permanent state of affairs, as it is likely to be.
  Do those who talk about current high rates of interest, for example, remember that they are not so high when the inflationary element is deducted from them? So long as there is inflation in the Western world, incorporated in the rate of interest must be the rate of inflation, so that, for example, if there is an 8 per cent. rate of interest and a 5 per cent. rate of inflation, one has, in effect, a 3 per cent. rate of interest. This is the kind of sophistication which is beginning to seep through, and, obviously, it will go a lot further.
  Despite all that, it can be held that inflation is far preferable to several other possibilities, among which I single out unemployment as not the least of them. I wholly accept that, but we must not be blind to the inefficiencies of inflation itself.
  Adjustment for inflation can be made in respect of savings; there is no difficulty there. As regards costing and investment,

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  as people adopt a more sophisticated attitude to inflation, they will come to work on the basis of constant money, as we do in the Ministry of Defence and our Estimates generally. There are countries today which have got used to this. When it comes to questions of money, people rapidly learn where their interests lie. These are matters which industry can encounter and overcome.
  But the great inefficiency which can never be overcome is the damage that inflation can do to productivity. Inflation does not cause much damage to savings. People can learn to live with it, though they have not learned to do so yet. We cannot assume that inflation is purely temporary and will go away, nor do I think that hon. Members opposite think in quite those terms. If inflation stays for any length of time, people will learn to live with it. They will want some money for their old age, or for some particular venture, aim or ambition, and inflation does not stop them doing so. What stops them is not understanding inflation: the thought that if one has £100 now it will be worth only £20 some time later.
  The most important aspect of inflation, and one which cannot be overcome, is its impact on productivity. Once we have rates of inflation of 5, 6, or 7 per cent. and rates of productivity of only 3 per cent.—and the rate of inflation is not assured in advance—the rate of productivity becomes rather less important to the manufacturer and the industrialist. If the manufacturer faces at the beginning of the year a possible rate of productivity of, say, 3 per cent.—which is roughly what it is at present—and then finds himself facing a rate of inflation of any-where between 4 per cent. and 7 per cent., productivity becomes less important to him. That is what countries which have inflated very seriously have found. It has been found that all the other matters can be disposed of by making various corrections. It is just a question of an increasing sophistication which is bound to come about.
  But this is one more argument against increasing inflation in order to achieve certain other desirable objectives. I hope that the Government will be able to find a way of diminishing it—curing it, no one
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  can do. But to keep some sort of check on it is a worthy and desirable objective, and I look forward not to the Bill having much impact on that aspect, but, at least, to further ideas which will come to the Department and which it may be able later to use.
  7.53 p.m.
  Dr. M. P. Winstanley: I apologise for an apparent discourtesy in that I had to be absent from the debate for a short time on an important constituency matter of which some hon. Members know and whose sympathy I have. I assure those hon. Members whose speeches I have missed that I intended no discourtesy to them; and that I shall read their speeches with great interest.
  I have listened to the speeches of the hon. Members for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) and Guildford (Mr. David Howell) with interest. It seemed to me that they both spent their time on interesting philosophical discussions of what is at the heart of this matter: what can we do either to restore competition, or even to do without competition? The approach of the two hon. Members was rather different.
  I say at once that we on this bench have very grave doubts about the Bill, and our doubts are not yet fully resolved. In other words, we are not yet wholly lost to the Government spokesman—not wholly. How we vote later will be largely determined by his answers to certain questions I have to put.
  We support the merger of the Prices and Incomes Board with the Monopolies Commission. We ourselves have in the past recommended just that step. We think that, essentially, the two are operating in the same territory and should be operating in an integrated way. Nevertheless, we are very doubtful about some of the Bill's nosey-parkering provisions, which seem to go much further than is necessary. We do not say that some action with regard to monopolies, mergers and restrictive practices of one kind and another is not necessary, but until we have heard a lot more by way of justification we do not wish to support what I describe as nosey-parkering provisions which would cause difficulties without producing corresponding benefits.

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  It may be wondered whether we are doing the right job at all. In dealing with the problem in this way, are we acting as we have done in so many other directions? Are we taking an existing pattern in industry which is not working satisfactorily and trying to make it work somehow, rather than attempting to change to a better pattern? I believe that both sides are inclined to do that even with industrial relations.
  We are constantly hearing, particularly from this side of the House, of different schemes to enforce the performance of agreements instead of trying to improve the machinery for making sensible agreements in the first place. I would like to see a more radical approach to the whole question, rather than just taking things as they are on the assumption that they must remain as they are but introducing a whole series of measures to force them to work.
  The right hon. Lady the Secretary of State has told us that the principle behind the Bill is public accountability. There is nothing wrong with that. We entirely support anyone who is trying to get more or more adequate public accountability from an industry, be it large or small. The Prime Minister has said that the Bill is an instrument to correct abuses of market power, but I do not disagree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) when he says that the Bill does only half the job. There is no mention of, or attempt to deal with abuse of the market power of labour. I do not wish to over-emphasise that side of the matter, or to say that the abuse is constant or all-embracing, but there seems to us, or there did seem to us, an important absence there.
  We are dealing with a subject which seems to me to highlight the essential differences between the political parties. The hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson) referred to himself as a total interventionist. The hon. Member for Guildford told us that he was just an interventionist. We on this bench wish to make it clear that we are interventionists only to such an extent as is necessary. Our policies for industry are aimed as far as possible at creating the kind of situation in which intervention will not be necessary.
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  We are dealing with a major problem which confronts all the political parties and to which none of them has yet found an adequate answer. It is the problem of the increasing size of various kinds of organisation. We accept that in the modern competitive world situation, organisations in certain spheres must inevitably get larger and larger. We fully accept that in certain kinds of industry—science-based industries and advanced technology—organisations must be very large if they are to thrive. But when organisations get very large one has new problems to deal with. This problem has been referred to by both sides.
  How does one provide public account-ability and preserve competition in a large scale enterprise at the same time allowing it to be humane and sensitive? Little has been said about the rôle of those who work in large-scale industry and this is hardly mentioned in the Bill. Will the Commission have power, in dealing with mergers, to comment on the interests of workers?
  The Government have not found the answer. At one time the answer was to be nationalisation. Once an industry was nationalised, it was thought that it would automatically become accountable and sensitive. We know from our experience that this is not so. I do not suggest that it never can be, and I welcome the experiments of the statutory undertakings who are trying to introduce regional competition. The statutory undertakers have attempted to introduce a competitive atmosphere; for instance, the electricity boards are competing with other sources of energy.
  But, in general, we must accept that the nationalised industries have not turned out to be the publicly accountable bodies, sensitive to the people who work in and depend on them, that many hon. Members on the Government benches hoped.
  Mr. Simon Mahon: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that this has happened to such an extent that the National Dock Labour boards on Mersey-side are casting aside any man over 30 years of age and debarring him from participation in industry?
  Dr. Winstanley: I am sure other hon. Members can produce similar examples in different spheres, but we should

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  remember that these are faults which arise from the structure of industry rather than from the way in which they are managed. The problem is what is to be done, and this is what the Bill is about. The Long Title underlines that the Bill has to do with large undertakings.
  On first looking at the Bill we welcomed the fusion of the Monopolies Commission with the N.B.P.I., but were uneasy about the extent of the intervention allowed, and the extent to which the Bill appeared to fossilise industry in its existing state. On looking further, we found that the Bill dealt with labour as well as management. Clause 3(1)(a) refers to
  "at least one-third of the goods or services".
  This is something new. The previous legislation on monopolies and restrictive practices did not refer to services.
  Clause 3 is almost a word-for-word reproduction of Section 4(1)(a) of the Monopolies and Restrictive Practices (Inquiry and Control) Act 1948:
  "at least one-third of all the goods of that description…"
  So the word "services" has been specifically added in this Bill.
  Does this mean that the Commission can inquire into conveyancing, restrictive practices operated by estate agents, scale fees, the management of theatres and the operation of theatrical agencies? If so, we welcome that as one slight advance.
  Mr. Peter Emery: Why does the hon. Gentleman welcome the ability of the Government to inquire into theatrical agencies and other minor service sectors? The last thing we want is Government agencies, or statutory bodies supplied with taxpayers' money, interfering in these matters. I should have thought that even the Liberal Party would want to keep its fingers out of that.
  Dr. Winstanley: I can understand some hon. Gentlemen wishing to keep their fingers out of it, and other hon. Gentlemen wishing to keep their mouths shut about it. Serious monopoly practices exist in respect of services, and I am astonished that any hon. Member should suggest that these are minor matters. If he went out into the country and said restrictive practices in relation to convey
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  ancing and scale fees did not matter, he would get a sharp answer.
  The Bill does not reproduce from the 1948 Act the proviso to Section 4(2):
  "Provided that in considering whether or not any two or more persons so conduct their affairs as aforesaid, practices as to the workers to be employed or not to be employed by them, or as to the remuneration, conditions of employment, hours of work or working conditions of workers, or any class of workers, so employed shall be left out of account."
  This Section, which excludes matters relating to employment from the legislation, is omitted from the Bill. Is it intended that the conduct of a trade union which represents employees in more than one-third of an industry can be referred to the Commission? The Bill appears to permit this, and to permit the making of an order by which smaller bargaining units would be obligatory.
  Clause 12(a) suggests that an order could be made to declare unlawful a sympathetic strike:
  "An order under Section 10 of this Act may—
  (a) declare it to be unlawful, except to such extent and in such circumstances as may be provided by or under the order…"
  I will not quote it in full, but if the Minister will look at it he will see that it changes the position with regard to the specific exclusion of employment.
  The same situation arises in Clause 20(4):
  "Section 4 of the Trade Disputes Act 1906 (which prohibits actions of tort against trade unions) shall not apply to any civil proceedings in respect of a contravention or apprehended contravention of any order under Section 10, 18 or 19 of this Act."
  That suggests that trade unions indulging in sympathetic strikes could be sued in tort without the protection of the Trade Disputes Act, 1906.
  We do not wish to be misunderstood and identified with other people on this side of the House who appear to think that the industrial relations problem can be put right by legislation. We have made our proposals clear and expressed them fully in debate. We have said that we would bring nationally negotiated wage agreements into the ambit of restrictive trade practices legislation so as to encourage company or plant level bargaining. It seemed that at last in the Bill the Government were beginning to change the law in relation to trade

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  unions, restrictive practices and certain of the immunities which formerly existed.
  If that is the case we are at least prepared to give the Bill a start. We are unhappy about parts of it, but would be willing to see it go into Committee where we would hope that some parts would be removed and the rest tidied up. If the Minister says that all matters to do with employment have been left out of the Bill because they are to be brought into a new industrial relations Bill, then I would be inclined to advise my hon. and right hon. Friends to vote against the Bill.
  We will not solve the problem of monopolies, lack of competition in industry, the lack of any feeling of involvement in industry, by making all sorts of glib assumptions about human motivation. I have listened to some extraordinary statements during the debate, automatic assumptions about what motivates people. If we are really to get industry to work so that the country can be competitive in this new situation we have to look much more realistically at human motivation. We have to get away from the idea that nothing matters except wages. I hope that we will move to a new kind of industrial democracy and that whatever Government are in power they will not say, "We have inherited this kind of system. We must keep it and make it work." I would like to see us introducing real constructive legislation to change the mood, the atmosphere and the system.
  Mr. Dell: It may help the hon. Gentleman if I reply immediately to his question. Services have been the subject of scrutiny by the Monopolies Commission since 1955. It is doing work on a reference on professional services of the sort the hon. Gentleman is interested in. The question of the manner of employment would be referable under Clause 28.
  Dr. Winstanley: Under the Monopolies Act, yes, but not under the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, which is a different thing. I was talking about restrictive trade practices in relation to services.
  Is it the intention of the Government to change the situation with regard to the immunity of trade unions through the Bill? If we examine the omissions in Clause 3 and compare it with the original Clause 4 it will be seen that it is identical
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  except that there was in the original Clause 4 an addition making matters concerning employment immune. That has been left out.
  The right hon. Member for Mitcham has said that the Government are only doing half of the job and this is true. I suspect that the right hon. Gentleman would himself also do only half the job, the other half. We would like to see both halves done and until we have an assurance that both halves will be done instead of just one, we shall be very reluctnat to support the Bill.
  8.15 p.m.
  Mr. W. Howie: In view of the important decisions which hinge on the replies of my hon. Friend to the Member for Cheadle (Dr. Winstanley) I will not attempt to follow the hon. Member in any detail. I agree with much of what he said about the position of the employee in big firms, especially to do with mergers. The employee has a right to be heard with regard to a merger, not only after it has taken place but at the stage where it is under consideration. His position is at least as important as that of a share-holder.
  I was very heartened by the hon. Member's admission that he was an interventionist. We have now had contributions from all three parties, claiming to be interventionists, but not from the Opposition Front Bench, although we know that they are interventionists. My view of the Bill is similar in part to the view held by the hon. and learned Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke). Not totally so, because I am less interested in the judicial nature of the Monopolies Commission than he, but I, too, see the Bill as producing something in the nature of a hybrid. I must admit to having some slight hesitation on that score.
  One central reason for the Bill is to deal with the use of abuse of market power. What interests me is that I am not certain that the use or abuse of market power is the same for a commercial organisation as it is for a trade union. These two kinds of bodies are operating in quite different markets. I know that sometimes labour is described as a commodity, bought and sold in the market in the same way as any other commodity, but this is not so. Labour is more than an abstraction, it is men.

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  It has been said that the market power of the trade unions is a response to the strength of the organisations with which they have to deal and that it is therefore different in kind.
  It will be remembered that some years ago the market power of the unions was described as a countervailing power, when Galbraith recognised that it was different. For that reason, I am not sure that it should be lumped in together with the market power of the capitalist. To some extent the Government are falling into the same error which the Leader of the Opposition has fallen into in his enthusiasm to apply the theory of legal restriction and limitation on trade unions and their activities, as though he was dealing with a commercial product. He is applying the idea of commercial law to a trade union situation which is quite different. It is not obvious to me at first sight that the same body should deal with both groups of problems.
  In all probability this idea grew from the development of the Prices and Incomes Board. It became apparent during the recent life of the Board that to do its job properly and to investigate wages, salaries, prices, and so on, it had more and more to analyse industry in a managerial sense. To some extent the Board began to impinge on the Monopolies Commission. It was no doubt from the enlargement of the Board's activities that this idea grew.
  I think that in combining two kinds of market situations in one Bill it is absolutely correct that wages should not be left to the market. To that extent the idea of a prices and incomes policy has always attracted me. The error which the Government made was that in the course of their struggle to put the economy right and to deal with the balance of payments, the prices and incomes policy came more into the centre of their economic strategy, whereas it should have remained nearer the periphery.
  I have never doubted that the development of a reasonably acceptable prices and incomes policy would be a very slow process. It does not alarm me that the recent attempt appears at the moment to have failed. I expect that the development of a prices and incomes policy will be achieved by a series of efforts and a series of failures, and that sometimes
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  one way will be taken and sometimes another way. In the fullness of time, wages will be taken out of the market, and that is absolutely correct.
  My second misgiving about the proposed Commission, although I am not sure that I am right in having it, is that there occurs in the publication which accompanies the Bill, the consultative document, the idea that the Government are turning away from what the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. David Howell) has called the fashion for bigness. My impression is that the Commission may develop a distaste for bigness in industry, for monopoly and for oligopoly. I am not opposed to bigness in industry, nor am I opposed to monopoly and oligopoly. I am not keen on monopoly and oligopoly in private hands, but in themselves they do not worry me too much. After all, there are ways of dealing with a monopoly if it is thought that it is unsuited for private control.
  Leaving aside a very small number of firms, we must remember that the big British firms are not all that big in world or even European terms. Many of our firms who export 30 or 40 per cent. and sometimes even more of their production are often competing with much larger firms. Only a few firms in Britain are comparable in scale to the giants in the United States and the one or two in Europe. We still need a great deal of encouragement towards mergers in our industry, and to discourage the notion that bigness is going out of fashion.
  That brings me to the I.R.C., which is one of the most valuable and supportable innovations of the Government. Its job is to promote mergers and sometimes to use public money to do it. By promoting mergers, it improves the competitiveness and strength of our industry. The hon. Member for Guildford referred to an example of its work, though he got it wrong. He gave the impression that the I.R.C. had initiated the notion of merging the British ball-bearing industry, whereas what happened was that the Swedish ball-bearing industry developed the notion of merging the British industry.
  As a matter of fact, I thought that it was an excellent idea. I had a little quarrel with the I.R.C. about it. But

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  what undoubtedly will happen is that, after a time, the merged British ball-bearing industry will, in turn, merge with at least the British end of the Swedish industry, and it will then achieve a size where the British will be able to take a larger part in the world's ball-bearing business.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) said earlier, the problem is that the I.R.C. and the proposed C.I.M. may find themselves pulling at the same rope in opposite directions. If a situation arises where the I.R.C. is trying to merge two companies, it is important that the C.I.M. does not get in its way. The priority must be given to the I.R.C. and the new Commission must yield to it.
  My last misgiving arises from the power of the Government to make Orders. I am prompted to mention this as a result of the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Haywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett), who tried to suggest that we should initiate references to the new Commission from this House. To some extent, that is an attractive idea, but I refer on the whole to leave it to the Government, if only because I am anxious to avoid a kind of parade of debates in this House on Orders dealing with references before they have happened, rather like the interminable series of debates that we had on the prices and incomes policy, though at least they occurred after decisions had been taken.
  I would not like to think that we shall have to go through that kind of procedure at the beginning each time we initiate a reference—[Interruption.] I notice that the hon. Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) does not agree with me It may be that I misunderstood my hon. Friend.
  Leaving aside my misgivings, I am strongly in favour of Clause 26, which is perhaps the best Clause of all, a part from the Schedule removing from us the odious job of deciding our own salaries. It is long overdue for that to be done by an independent body, and the Bill provides that that shall happen.
  Clause 26 gives the Commission a considerable amount of elbow room. As its first reference, I hope that it will report on any question relating to wages and
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  practices of any description in the motor manufacturing industry. I select that industry deliberately, because one central reason for the industrial unrest in that industry arises from the complexity and confusion of its wage rates and earnings levels. The present turmoil in the industry over such matters as parity or comparability shows this. It is the very confusion of wage rates throughout the industry which has given rise to a theory of comparability between firms and between departments of firms.
  I want to cite an example of the kind of situation which arises from the confusion. Hon. Members will be aware of the recent strike at Ellesmere Port involving 112 back viewers—a new kind of subspecies of inspector. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State will be familiar with the dispute, as it arose near his constituency. The strike was settled last week, but, in view of the fact that it was concerned with this mix-up of rates of pay, on terms which may sow the seeds of a number of not too dissimilar disputers.
  It is worth considering how a strike of that kind occurs and to try to find who is to blame. It is easy to say that here are 112 men holding the rest to ransom and costing their employers millions of pounds. It may be argued that they should all be sacked. That is a natural response, but it is a superficial one. There is no doubt that the strike was unofficial, unconstitutional, wild-cat and totally deplorable. But it was a classic unofficial strike which could have come straight out of the Donovan Report.
  A small group of men reacted to what they thought was an unjust managerial decision. They thought—rightly I think—that they had obtained a promise of status and position from the management, but in the next set of wage negotiations the promise was not fulfilled. So the managerial decision which they thought unjust was at best ambiguous. My point is that the managerial decision, unjust or ambiguous as it was, arose from the tortuous nature of the wage rates in that industry. I think that this is worthy of examination. The firm threatened to sack these men, although I believe that the central fault was the firm's.
  What I find interesting about the Opposition's view is that, had the trade union laws which the Leader of the

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  Opposition spoke about over the weekend been in operation, the firm would have been able to sack these men with impunity. This is an extraordinary situation.
  Mr. David Mitchell: That is a gross distortion of what my right hon. Friend said on Saturday. In the circumstances described by the hon. Gentleman, the men would have had a right of action against the employer for damages for breach of the agreement.
  Mr. Howie: It is not a distortion of what the Leader of the Opposition said on Saturday. It was a reference to what he said on Monday. I leave it there. There would have been no justice in being sacked with impunity. That is one example arising from the complexity of the wage structure in the industry which a body of this kind would be well equipped to examine.
  I believe that the Government should take the nationalised industries completely out of the Bill. Now and again the Government listen to criticism of their attitude from their own supporters and sometimes yield to their entreaties. About a year ago, when electricity prices were to be put up, there was a clamour that they should be referred to the National Board for Prices and Incomes, and Government yielded. I believe that they were mistaken. They now have a chance to remedy that situation, and they should take it.
  The point about nationalisation was so that the Government should have control over nationalised industries. This is especially important, because the pricing policies of these industries often reflect back on the taxation system. It is important that a decision relating so closely to the taxation system, as do the pricing policies of nationalised industries, should be taken by Government, not by an outside board, however eminent and how-ever appointed. I hope that the Government will remove all reference to nationalised industries.
  Despite the enthusiasm of the Opposition, competition is not the natural way in industry. It is the very reverse. It is an error which we should try to avoid to reverse the natural condition of things.
  8.34 p.m.
  Mr. David Mitchell: Today, the House is asked to pass the Commission for Industry and Manpower Bill. I think that its title should be, "Commission for Interference and Meddling."
  The right hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Frederick Lee), who is not now in his place, asked, on prices and wages: does the Conservative Party believe in an uncontrolled free-for-all or in State intervention? He challenged us to say which we would choose. I accept that challenge, and answer that that is not the choice. There is no need to look in a crystal ball to ask what we would do. The right hon. Gentleman can look in the book and see what happened when we had a voluntary wages and prices policy. The cost of living went up at half the rate that it is now going up. Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who will be going to the country before long, would be very glad if they could show that they had a record of price increases as good as that which the Conservatives had when in office.
  The right hon. Gentleman's second question was: why should the Government accept responsibility for current price increases over which they have no control? That is a rhetorical question which at first sounds interesting. No control? What about S.E.T., designed to increase prices? What about the extra cost of vehicle licences, designed to in crease the cost of distribution? What about the extra cost of money in business with the high Bank Rate? The right hon. Gentleman may be right that they have no control, but they have the responsibility for causing the excess inflation facing the country.
  I want to stand back and look at the priority needs of industry in the 'seventies and consider whether the Bill will help or damage it. Britain in the 'seventies will be dominated by the Government's intention, announced by the Prime Minister in 1967, to apply to join the Common Market. I hear that negotiations will start in July. The Prime Minister is on record as saying that he intends that those negotiations should succeed. Apparently the news has not reached the Minister or the Department putting forward the Bill.

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  Looking at the White Paper, "Britain and the European Communities: An Economic Assessment", we find the dreary tale of the effect on food prices, consumption and the cost of living, the contribution to the Community Agricultural Fund, and the net effect on the balance of payments. Not until we come to page 26 do we find the advantages:
  "There would be substantial advantages for British industry from membership of this new enlarged Common Market, stemming primarily"—
  I stress "primarily"—
  "from the opportunities for greater economies of scale".
  It is clear that the White Paper is saying that the economic advantages of joining the Common Market will come with the economies of mass production.
  If we have any doubt about that, turning to page 35, we read:
  "But successful competition with the United States in the high technology industries of the future will increasingly depend on the existence of at least some West European companies of comparable size to their United States counter-parts. At present, most of the largest companies in the United Kingdom and in the rest of western Europe are much smaller than their United States competitors."
  It is clear that the first question which one is entitled to ask of the Bill is whether it will assist in company growth, in company amalgamations, and in rationalisation. The answer is clearly, "No". Indeed, far from assisting, and instead of sharpening its teeth to attack monopoly, something with which I entirely agree, it attacks size. Any company with £10 million assets, or any amalgamation involving a company with more than £5 million assets, will be caught within the ambit of the Bill. In the past, monopoly defined as market dominance was rightly held to be suspect. Now the very things which we need if we are to be a success in the Common Market, the size and the economies which can come from large-scale production, are to be suspect.
  People may ask why the threat of investigation should inhibit growth and amalgamations. I say bluntly to anyone woh doubts that that will be so that he has not been in contact with a company which has been involved in investigations by the P.I.B. Days of management time are devoted to preparing and answering questions. More days are devoted to
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  preparing answers to questions. There are discussions on company policy about the investigation and on the questions which are being put up. Management is virtually paralysed for days from doing its proper function by the need to please its political masters. Nothing could be more disastrous for the country at a time when we should be preparing ourselves for the toughest cut-throat competition that we will have known when we get free trade with Western Germany, Italy and France.
  The second priority for industry now is investment, more investment, and yet more investment. We need investment in more modernisation, in more mechanisation, in computerisation, and in new plant and process. If 10 economists were gathered together and asked to define the answer to a problem, they would provide 10 different solutions, except one. On the question whether Britain needs more investment in her industry today, they would all agree.
  What do we find? Where is the money to come from? We find that during the recent period of Government the rate of increase of investment in industry has been falling off. My hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. David Howell) drew attention to the fact that it has fallen from an increase of 2 per cent. per annum under the Conservatives from 1951 to 1964 to 0·2 per cent. last year. And this is the seed corn of our future prosperity.
  Where will the money come from for the modernisation of, and investment in, industry? At the moment, 40 per cent. of it comes from pension funds, but once the Crossman pension proposals are on the Statute Book that figure will be slimmed down quite a bit. Where is the money to come from? In the main, it comes from the ploughing back of profits, but one hon. Gentleman opposite after another has told us this afternoon that profits are immoral, and this Commission is designed to lean heavily on industry to see that it does not make profits or, if it does, that they are as slim as possible.
  The C.I.M. may make orders requiring notification of price increases by any company—not a monopoly, but any company—with assets of more than £10 million, and after a C.I.M. report the

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  Government can take power to fix prices themselves. They can fix prices in a situation in which they will not control wages, and in a situation in which the Minister's trade union friends can demand a wage increase. Despite that, the Minister will be able to tell companies that they cannot increase prices. There will be a squeeze on profits, a squeeze on the money which should be invested in the modernisation of firms, and in the modernisation of industry.
  I say again that this is the seed corn of our future prosperity, and it will mean, inevitably, that the amount of money available for reinvestment in industry will be less than it should be. Already, profits in industry are below those of our international competitors. Investment in industry is below that of our international competitors and, consequently, as a direct result, wages in this country are increasingly below those of our international competitors.
  I turn, next, to the effect of the Government's proposition that we should join the Common Market. With an enlarged Market, we shall have totally free trade with Europe. The whole purpose of the Common Market is to do away with the artificial restrictions imposed by national boundaries. Under this system, what might have been a monopoly within the United Kingdom in the past will no longer be one, with the result that the definition of monopoly will be totally different from that which operates today. In those circumstances, it cannot make sense to ask the House to pass a Bill which, in a couple of years' time, will not be worth the paper on which it has been written.
  The Bill is a nonsense and a waste of time when we should be concentrating on competition to keep prices down. We ask the Government to wake up to the fact that the Prime Minister has applied to join the Common Market and that the whole basis of the Bill and the thinking behind it have, therefore, been totally changed by that prospect. If the Government had already been alive to that fact, there would have been a different Bill, perhaps designed to bring British practice and law closer to those now applied in Europe.
  8.45 p.m.
  Mr. Leslie Huckfield: The hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. David Mitchell) will forgive me if I do not follow him into some of the more European aspects he laid before us.
  We have heard a lot tonight, particularly from hon. Members opposite, about the need for mergers and increasing size in British industry. We have Government bodies such as the I.R.C. which are primarily designed to encourage size. Wherever one looks today, there seem to be mergers and acquisitions and firms and companies and assets increasing all the time. The trouble is that, amongst all the bodies we have, or are to have, to watch over the increase in the size of companies, nobody seems very concerned with the human aspects.
  In this, I speak with some reference to my constituency of late. Many of my constituents in Nuneaton work in the Coventry car trade and have been concerned about recent decisions by the Chrysler-Rootes Motor Corporation. I know that many too are concerned about the effect of the merger which produced the British Leyland Motor Corporation. In all these mergers and increases in size, there seems great emphasis on the need to grow bigger in order to compete with the Americans and the Europeans, but not half as much emphasis as I would wish on some of the often very serious human consequences.
  Whenever a backbench Member, speaking from a constituency point of view, questions a Minister about the I.R.C. or the Prices and Incomes Board or the Monopolies Commission in relation to some of the human factors, he is told time and again that this or that body has no responsibility or no say in the human side of the matter.
  I would like to have seen in this Bill much more reference to the very serious human consequences of many of the decisions which industry will have to take. Those decisions will mean more mergers. We had an interesting example during the week before last when a prominent trade union leader tried to exercise or to have his say in the proposed merger between B.O.A.C. and B.U.A. One was surprised to see how many voices were raised opposite against

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  the men who work in the industry having their say. If we are to have more mergers under the new Commission and more increases in size, let us not only have concern for the human aspect but, above all, give the workers the right to have their say as well.
  I wish there had been more reference in the Bill to giving the workers a chance to have their say because, after all, we are talking about people who often spend their whole working lives in an industry. Surely they have a right to be heard as well.
  We have heard a great deal about size and pubic control of monopoly, near-monopoly, duopoly, oligolopy and various other "opolies", which all mean that industry is getting bigger and more inhuman. But the difficulty is that certain industries have recently been getting bigger and not so subject to public control. I wish that the Bill had included some references to the need for more public control. This is something which the Industrial Reorganisation Corporation, the Monopolies Commission and the Prices and Incomes Board are not equipped to do. I wish that it had referred to investigating future public ownership and public accountability, to ensure that these acquisitions did not get even more out of control.
  We shall be subjected to this kind of thing increasingly in the Common Market, and it is worrying that increasing amounts of taxpayers' money are being absorbed in these industries. If the I.R.C. is to intervene and make taxpayers' money available to these mergers in interest free loans and building grants, public accountability and, preferably, public control as well, should be increased.
  There has been reference to size of monopolies and to what should be the size at which the Commission should intervene. The old definition of a near-monopoly in the 1948 Act which set up the Monopolies Commission was of a situation in which one firm commanded more than 30 per cent. of the market. We have heard references to £5 million and £10 million asset sizes. I can think of a whole number of firms which have never undergone this kind of searching investigation.
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  I would refer my hon. Friends on the Front Bench to National Car Parks Limited, a company which has busied itself over the past 10 years acquiring key city centre sites, the value of which was created by the community, but the profits from which go to this company. If the Government are looking for a first case to be referred to the new Commission, I hope that it will be this firm. Wherever one goes in London or any of our big cities, it is National Car Parks that one sees taking our money and making the profit. I hope that my hon. Friend will refer to this later on.
  There has been a reference to the need for efficiency audits, but I was disappointed when the Secretary of State said that it was not possible to make "general efficiency references" of private firms. But we are very keen on subjecting nationalised industries to ever-increasing numbers of investigations. I should have thought that there are large numbers of private firms which should be investigated and that those powers should be included in the Bill. I hope that, in future, some of the spotlight which has been shed on public industry will be shed on private industry as well, as the Prices and Incomes Board started to do.
  I am glad that the Secretary of State referred to the dropping of the statutory control of wages. I was originally taught that the Board and the prices and incomes policy would genuinely help those who could not fight for themselves—the lower paid. The trouble is that, as the policy has worked out, it is only now that it is at last, thank goodness, crumbling, that the lower paid and those who could not fight for themselves are starting to get a fair deal.
  It is easy to talk of statutory wages control, but there has not been half enough talk about statutory control of the other forms of income. I am thinking of incomes like capital gains, dividend increases and rents.
  I hope that on both sides of the House we have heard the death-knell of proposals for the statutory control of wages. It has not worked successfully in the past and it is unfair to expect workers to have some sort of statutory control over their share of the national income while—even members of the Government will admit this—it has always been difficult to exert control over dividends, interest payments

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  and all the other important sources of income for the upper-class sections of the community.
  If we are to have a body examining wage structures, then I hope that it will examine some of the other salary and income structures, because the only sort of incomes policy in which I am interested is one which at last alters the present inequalities in the distribution of wealth.
  I am glad that under Clause 13 there are powers—we were told that these powers already existed—to regulate prices. However, I understand that these powers will be used only in certain cases and where prices are obviously derived from a firm taking advantage of its market power. The trouble is that if prices are regulated only on that basis, then there is a danger that that excuse will be used when back benchers, and particularly those on this side of the House, press for price controls to be introduced.
  I cannot help thinking that the original prices and incomes policy—indeed, any such policy that now exists, if anybody still believes in it—would have been seen to have worked more fairly if we could have effectively taken control of prices. I only hope that, with the new powers which my right hon. Friend has to investigate and regulate prices after the Commission has reported, we will see a determined effort to control and regulate many of the key prices.
  We failed to control certain key prices, such as the price of bread, beer and milk, to name only three. I hope that we will not fail to regulate key prices in future. There is no doubt that if one speaks to people about this when canvassing for local elections, and so on, the inability to control key prices is uppermost in people's minds when they speak of the rising cost of living and the Government having failed to regulate important price increases.
  I have written to several Government Departments about certain price increases. Considering some of the mournful and lugubrious excuses that I have been given, I hope that the new Commission will not present the same sort of excuses. We must show that we mean business. If we do not, we will get this continuing inflationary spiral in which inflation is the only safety valve in the
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  pressure conflict in society between managements and unions.
  Inflation may form a neat safety valve if other countries inflate at the same rate. Unfortunately, some countries inflate faster than others. The lower-paid and those on fixed incomes—in other words, those who cannot fight for themselves—lose out every time.
  We have heard from hon. Gentlemen opposite about what they now call "civilised capitalism". I do not believe that capitalism can be civilised, because I do not believe in capitalism. We have also heard much about humanising the structure of industry and the increasing size which industry is striving to reach.
  I hope that if industry gets bigger and we are to have a Commission which will investigate examples of it getting bigger, this new Commission, whether it be part of the P.I.B. or the old Monopolies Commission, will adopt a more human approach to these matters, and will accept that people's lives, jobs and futures are at stake. I trust that that will be the guiding light of the new Commission on Industry and Manpower.
  9.0 p.m.
  Mr. Tom Boardman: As the right hon. Lady is present, I will take a moment to say how much I regret the tone of her speech in opening the debate. She is aware that there is on this side of the House unanimous support for creating the type of competition that will bring about efficiency. While there is much in the Bill which we contest, there is much in it which we would like constructively to amend. A less aggressive, bitter approach from her before she had heard the debate would have been welcome.
  Why are restrictive trade practices excluded from the Bill? Although the consultative document says that these responsibilities are separable, it goes on in paragraph 15 to show clearly how the responsibilities overlap. It seems a nonsense to exclude this from a Bill designed to create a more competitive industry.
  There has been some debate on the question of ministerial selection of the references. I endorse what was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) and others. The Ministerial method of selection must bring political considerations into

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  account, which may not necessarily coincide with efficiency. It must also give rise to the feeling, rightly or wrongly, that party considerations are introduced. It has been suggested that to bring in a registrar to do the first vetting might introduce delay. The Minister of State knows that there have been considerable Ministerial delays over decisions as to whether a matter should be referred, and I cannot believe that the registrar procedure would be anything but quicker and more effective.
  My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) put forward the case of the Commission versus a judicial tribunal. Again it is a matter of speed and legal justice. Experience has shown that tribunals of full-time members achieve a speed which cannot be matched by part-time members. The Bill provides for a Commission of up to 20 members, and, differently from what we have enacted in the last few years, the Commission must now sit as a whole. There is no provision enabling it to sit in separate groups which would speed up business. Why this was omitted? It is a peculiar omission.
  Lack of time prevents me from developing some of the arguments about monopolies by trade unions. As wages form something over 50 per cent. of the costs of industry, it is farcical to have a situation where the law permits exploitation of that element yet endeavours to control prices, with such a large wage element in them. It seems illogical.
  There are points which can be raised in Committee about the power to probe companies at over £10 million. It seems that this probe must be carried out in a vacuum, without any yardsticks drawn from other parts of that industry, and, I hope, without powers to probe comparable companies. It will be interesting to see how this witch-hunt is to be directed. The question of price control has been put by my right hon. Friend as resting on one of two alternatives. There is the alternative which we put forward of increased competition and the one put forward by the Secretary of State, of State intervention. While there is no black and white of total intervention or total non-intervention, it is clear that as the right hon. Lady claims to be the ally of indus-
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  try she is coming down on the wrong side of the fence to prevent industry saying, "God save me from my friends."
  9.5 p.m.
  Mr. Dudley Smith: The Secretary of State began her speech this afternoon by describing this new body as the "ally of industry". Later, she referred to it as "a virile stimulant to efficiency". She ended by calling the C.I.M. a "blueprint". I should have used a different colour in describing it, particularly after hearing the speech of the hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson). He said frankly that he was a total interventionist and that this was an interventionist Bill. We know the sort of intervention he was talking about. In some ways he let the cat out of the bag, but he is one of the most honest hon. Members and we understand and appreciate his point of view. I wish that there was more frankness among hon. Members on the Government benches on this subject.
  I have listened to practically every speech in this debate. There have been some very good ones on both sides of the House, but nothing I have heard leads me remotely to think that the Bill is a good one or deserves to become law. As I usually do, I declare my interest. I work in industry. The company with which I am associated will probably qualify under the size criterion for treatment under this Measure. On reflection, I think that those who perhaps had a hand in preparing and presenting the Bill ought to have had some industrial experience. If they had, its provisions might well have been different.
  One is left at the end of the day with a single question—why are the Government doing this? One can hardly expect the Minister of State, when he winds up the debate, to add any extra information over and above what we have heard already. This is a question I shall try to examine and to answer. There are three possible reasons for the action on the part of the Government. First, apparently they are bringing forward this legislation because they wish to strengthen the law against monopolies. That is an admirable sentiment which has been commended on both sides of the House. It is well worth doing, but I

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  think they will fail to do it by this provision. In my view, the new Commission will not be flexible enough and it has the wrong terms of reference. If it tackles all the tasks envisaged in the Bill, its members will be grievously over-burdened in the work they have under-taken. There is no guarantee whatever that anyone connected with the C.I.M. will have had any industrial experience.
  The hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) chided my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) on the question of staffs. He said that there was provision in the Schedules for extra staffs if they were found necessary. That could apply to any Government Department. Any Government can double the number of any institution which they happen to run. They could even double the size of Parliament if they wished and brought in the necessary legislation. If the Government are serious they should have strengthened the C.I.M. from the outset and given it a reasonable number of members for it to operate. The right hon. Lady did not think this was of any significance, for she did not mention the subject.
  Apparently the Government wish to get rid of prices and incomes policy because it has been like some ugly unwanted child over the years, becoming more and more an embarrassment to the family as it has grown older. That is an admirable sentiment, but the Government will fail to do that because the Prices and Incomes Board will remain as a prices board. It will still have some dealings with the question of incomes, but no effective powers over them. In many respects, this will be the same old interfering busybody set up, despite its grandoise title and irrespective of whichever Smith, Jones, Robinson, or Brown is appointed to run it. Therefore, again I think that the Government will fail on that point.
  In that situation we must emphasise more and more that incomes are being left out of the Bill. Under the previous legislation we were bitterly opposed to the implementation of a prices and incomes policy. We did not disguise the fact, but at least business and commerce were dealt with under one legislative heading. Under these proposals no powers will be retained to delay or limit
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  wage increases. All the statutory backing for the incomes policy is removed and this will inevitably tend to encourage rather than discourage further excessive increases in income.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. David Howell) said in an admirable speech, the neurosis has already settled in because we now have severe wage inflation. He rightly stressed that one can only have wage inflation when this is properly matched by output.
  The Government apparently wish to establish a vigorous-sounding expert industrial body which will guide and help commerce and promote genuine competities in the public interest. Again, this is an admirable sentiment and one which all hon. Members would like to see. But I think that the Government will fail to achieve it through this medium. Industry and commerce are likely to be obstructed rather than assisted by the proposals before the House today.
  The present monopolies position is all-important in these circumstances. As my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) said in his usual lucid and compelling speech, this marriage is very damaging to the Monopolies Commission. In the past, it has had a fair bill of health and I think that it has become accepted on many sides. My hon. and learned Friend does not want its reputation injured by this shotgun marriage. Nor do I.
  I remember only too well the superficiality of some of the later reports of the Prices and Incomes Board when comparing them with the reports produced by the Monopolies Commission. There are great dangers in a roving commission into the efficiency of industry as a whole which is concentrated on size and largely, in some respects, ignoring monopolistic position.
  The opportunities for misuse and abuse are greatly increased if one has a body such as the C.I.M. which has been detailed to us today. It is no secret that we on this side of the House want a stronger, more effective Monopolies Commission which will safeguard free enterprise and prevent market domination. There is genuine public concern—and rightly so—that monopolistic tendencies should not be allowed to get out of hand and that people should have alter-

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  native choices in goods and services and also in firms for which to work. One of the worst considerations arising from a monopoly is that many people are sometimes thrown out of work and find it difficult to get comparable positions else-where. Therefore, I feel that the field should not be too much narrowed.
  There is a good deal of agreement between hon. Members on both sides of the House. The point was made in a fine speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. Kenneth Lewis). Nevertheless, while we must not become mesmerised by size alone as the equation of efficiency—mere size does not always mean efficiency—we must also not forget that experience has shown that, on the whole, as a nation, we have coped reasonably well with the question of monopolies and monopoly growth. The Government now seem to be pretending, by the introduction of these new and rather ill-defined powers, that monopoly in industry is on the rampage, or will shortly be so. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford that we must be ever vigilant against monopoly and have a sharp instrument to deal with it. But there is no sign of growth on this score.
  It is worth putting on record that, despite the Government's best efforts to interfere with industry, competition in this country has increased in recent years, because of a number of factors. One was the abolition of resale price maintenance. Others were more effective restrictive practice legislation and sustained and vital growth of international competitiveness. This goes both ways, because one must learn to sell abroad. Many British companies are now international whereas once they were national.
  Other factors are the general erosion of tariff barriers since the end of the Kennedy Round, the increased prospect of entry to the European Economic Community, and, perhaps above all, the advancing technological change which penetrates once cosy and stagnant markets and shakes up the operators and makes then realise that overnight their manufacturing and marketing techniques can become obsolete and put them out of business. The availability of substitutes is very important in this respect.
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  Where the Government have made their mistake on monopolies—and this has been emphasised by a number of hon. Members today—is by decreeing that size shall be one of the two criteria for implied guilt or Ministerial interference. The manifest unfairness to our large industrial companies can be seen when one examines the size proposition more closely. I assure the Government that we shall examine it very closely and critically in Committee.
  The Government have decided, quite arbitrarily and without any convincing explanation, on a size criterion of £10 million net assets. It is almost as if they said in their appropriate Cabinet Committee which considered the matter, "Let us clobber the big boys and make an example of them. Take, for example, The Times list of the 400 leading companies of the country". I cannot believe that any bigger or better yardstick was employed by the right hon. Lady and her political advisers.
  This raises enormous difficulties for the larger industrial companies. Imagine that one is boss of one of these companies and one falls under the eagle scrutiny of the right hon. Lady the First Secretary. After the Bill becomes law, because one's asset exceed £10 million, she can at her whim play havoc with one's pricing policy by referring it for investigation, while one's competitor, who by act of fate, falls on the right side of the £10 million line can have a field day at one's expense.
  I do not accept the premise of the right hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Frederick Lee), who, in an interesting speech, said that he felt that this would be a price rubber stamp. The C.I.M. would involve itself very considerably with prices. A competitor, given this unfair advantage, can exploit his opportunities, and he will do so with skill and judgment to full measure. Take the subsidiary company of an international organisation based out-side the United Kingdom. It is unlikely to be caught by these proposals, because I believe—and perhaps the Minister of State will confirm this—that only its local assets will be taken into account whereas the companies which it is tackling on a competitive basis—its British inter-national counterparts—will have all their assets taken into consideration.

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  Take the conglomerates with vastly differing sectors of business I am associated with the pharmaceutical industry. The company for which I work has a wide variety of interests and activities besides being one of the nation's leading pharmaceutical companies. The Swiss and American companies predominate in the pharmaceutical industry in Britain. I should have thought that most of them will escape this legislation, particularly as they are subsidiaries. But a company with multifarious activities which take it above the £10 million cut-off mark will be assessed and judged on all its activities while its foreign competitors escape.
  If, subsequently, these unfairnesses are discovered and underlined, some of the foreign companies, if the legislation is changed, will probably depart from these shores to avoid further meddlesome statutory control. This is another important point when companies are looking to this country for expansion, either by investment or by establishing factories here.
  In these days of industrial troubles and a deplorable unofficial strike record, we often hear of companies which might be tempted to uproot and transfer their production to the Continent. Can any-one imagine anything, pursued to its ultimate conclusion, more calculated to drive leading companies to consider establishing a European base than this legislation. It is price control which will inhibit a proper return on capital if it is pressed home against them. Surely, size is a thoroughly bad yardstick, when we analyse the situation, for deciding issues in cases like this. We can all think of smaller combines which can often establish a far more monopolistic position than their larger counterparts. Competition often comes from the larger concerns much more fiercely than lower down the scale.
  One is forced to ask what the real purpose is of the early warning system which is now to become permanent, and of this mixing up of prices legislation with monopoly investigatory procedure. I do not accept the First Secretary's assurance that industry has not much to fear from these proposals. If the new price powers are pursued too strongly, they will destroy profit margins and undermine business
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  confidence alarmingly, and will ultimately sabotage British investment policy.
  There has been a strong backstage hint, which I find incredible, that, as the Government are now completely unable to control inflation and are worried about the staggering wage increases and the concomitant price rises, they have hit on this solution as an attempt to save the day. They will now take a tough line on prices, so that companies can tell unions pressing for wage increases that they cannot possibly respond and that if they do they will be forced into a decline. This is a complete recipe for disaster and it will encourage more industrial concern and strife than the present situation.
  But, if the proposed Commission does become effective, surely it will foster an institutionalised mentality in industry, just when those members of it, whether or not we enter the Common Market, should be looking to other parts of the world and meeting the challenges of other continents. This will make industry play safe and shun competition. The Government are saying to industry, "Your sponsoring civil servant at the Board of Trade or the Department of Employment and Productivity is really your best friend. Keep on his right side and he will not discriminate against you. Let him establish your pricing policy for you."
  Today, the number of man hours wasted by senior executives in industry in keeping pace with Government demands is an absolute scandal—hours which could be better spent in aiding the export drive, increasing productive efficiency, or earning profits for the future prosperity of the country. There are questionnaires to be answered, officials to be seen and reports to be compiled.
  Added to this is the enormous burden of new legislation coming out week by week, which impinges on a company's every activity and needs constantly to be surveyed and conjured with. I know of one senior executive in industry—a friend of mine—who estimates that he nowadays spends two-thirds of his working lifetime coping with problems thrown up by the Government, instead of getting on with his appointment as a research director. This is particularly valuable to his company, because he is very good at

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  understanding legislation, but it is quite wrong that he should——
  Mr. Atkinson: The hon. Gentleman has been striking a very personal note in telling us of his experiences. Will he tell us whether he is a part-time Member of Parliament or part-time member of a company? Second, what is his relationship in the job which he does? Does it compare with the amount of time his friends are spending on that relationship with the Government?
  Mr. Smith: I do not understand the second part of what the hon. Gentleman says——
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Let us return to the Second Reading of the Bill.
  Mr. Smith: I am a full-time Member of Parliament and a part-time member of industry. If the hon. Gentleman worked for the Opposition Front Bench, he would very soon learn how hard members of the Opposition have to work.
  The experiences to which I have referred, and others like them, are an indication of what people closely concerned with industry are undergoing now. It is a tribute to industry that it is as buoyant and successful as it is, despite the Government, not because of the Government.
  At the outset of my speech, I asked why the Government were bringing the Bill forward. Is it a genuine desire on their part to promote competition, with a new energetic burst of consumerism, or is it, in reality, the right hon. Lady with her well-known love of interference with industry for interference's sake? I believe it to be the latter.
  My hon. Friends may disagree, but I think that the Government are not serious in their proposals regarding prices. Apart from the obviously attractive window-dressing spin-off exercise on which they have embarked, understandably as an election approaches, I cannot see them being able to operate their plans effectively if they are to do so fairly. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham said, every other prices and incomes Measure so far in this Parliament has failed dismally, and there is no reason why this one should not do the same.
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  If, on the other hand, the Government are serious, if they intend to concentrate purely on prices and press this part of the legislation discriminately and vigorously, then industry is in for its worst experience yet. It ought to be copying the farmers and the anti-apartheid demonstrators and marching on St. James's Square tonight. In the final analysis, this Government, as so often, are speaking with two voices. In the first part of the Bill, the monopolies legislation, they are paying lip-service to competition, allegedly seeking to sustain and nurture it. In the second part, they are building machinery to distort competition and to discriminate against some of the leading companies which are so often the pace-setters. We need strong and effective monopolies legislation, and we shall attend to that in due course. The public must be protected and consumer interests must be constantly surveyed in the interests of all the people.
  Recently, the President of the C.B.I. referred to "a major gap of understanding" between the Government and industry. Such a comment is not surprising when one remembers the way in which the First Secretary of State and the Prime Minister ran away from their industrial relations reform and abandoned the incomes side of their faulty prices and incomes policy. We are living in an age of smash and grab, and we all know it.
  The Commission for Industry and Manpower, however grandiose and misleading its title, will not save the day in any attempt to control prices. It will fail signally. Every week, we see that industrial action brings rich results, whether it be the £11,000-a-year B.O.A.C. captains, the potential £60-a-week Mersey dockers, or even that currently equally militant body, the teachers. We are all in a wage scramble, and if we are not careful we shall be left behind. This is an ugly and dangerous manifestation of economic policies which have gone sadly wrong.
  A good indication of the extent to which the erosion of inflation has gone is the pathetic poster which I saw yesterday on a Post Office van, saying, "Now you can become a £1,000 a year postman". To many relatively humble families that is now a far from adequate wage. The Government are saying, "We

  669
  shall counter the situation by holding down prices", but they cannot possibly succeed.
  Friends and contacts in industry have been telling me for a long time that the Government are naturally hostile to industry and that they can never hope for anything better. I have suggested that whilst there is a certain basis for that type of observation, the Government really do know the importance of industry to the country's economic performance, and that although they dislike the profit motive they will, in the end, do something to sustain it.
  I must say that after today's experience I think that I was wrong in saying that. This Bill proves conclusively that not only do the Government not understand industry, but are prepared to indulge their emotive feelings against industry. That is why we shall tonight vote against the Second Reading, and that is why, when in the not too distant future we occupy the benches opposite, we shall radically overhaul the Bill's provisions.
  9.30 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Department of Employment and Productivity (Mr. Edmund Dell): We have not had very much from the Opposition during the course of the day about the Bill, with the exception of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke), who is very experienced in these matters and with whose comments I shall deal later.
  I must say, with respect to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) and the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Dudley Smith), that my main feeling during the day has been how much I missed the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph). I believe that he would have spoken about the Bill and, if voting against it, would have given good reasons for it. The Opposition's failure to indicate with any conviction their reasons for opposing the Bill shows that they are equivocal in their attitude to competition, as, indeed, has been shown on many occasions in their history when some of them have wished to take action to promote competition.
  It is appropriate that it should have been the hon. Member for Warwick and
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  Leamington who summed up this evening for the Opposition, because only a few weeks ago I had the honour to introduce into the House the first Order on information agreements relating to prices and terms and conditions specified under the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1968, and the hon. Gentleman gave that Order, which was a major advance in the field of competition, what he himself called a guarded welcome. He had to be rebuked by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Darwen for that lukewarm welcome to a major advance.
  The reason, apparently, which was to be presented to the House for voting against the Bill was that the Opposition had new and radical ideas about competition, of which they were to give us an inkling. When my right hon. Friend made a few preliminary remarks about what we had read of those ideas, we were told that we only had to wait for the right hon. Member for Mitcham in order to hear what those new and radical proposals were.
  What were those new and radical proposals? The right hon. Gentleman is disappointed that in the Bill there is no power to reduce tariffs. Does he really think that in this Bill we need power to reduce tariffs? Does he think that there is no legislation under which we can reduce tariffs if it will help the competitive situation and it is desirable to do so?
  The Opposition's major new radical proposal is for a registrar of monopolies—as the hon. Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) so appropriately said, this Archangel Gabriel who is to act in this field.
  But that is not such a new idea. It was proposed in the 1964 White Paper. Indeed, in the conditions of 1964 and 1965 there were some arguments for it, because we wanted more speed in conducting references, and that we have achieved. We wanted more references—and the Opposition's pitiful record in the making of references has been indicated by my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett)—and we had more references.
  It was felt also by those who drafted the 1964 White Paper that it was necessary to improve the procedure of the Commission in order to give it a greater appearance of fairness, although the 1964 White Paper stated that that point rested

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  to some extent on a misconception. On the point of procedure, we have clearly indicated that in this legislation we have every intention of ensuring that the procedure will be, and will be seen to be, fair, and we are discussing that point of procedure with Confederation of British Industry. It is vital that the Commission should be fair and should be seen to be fair.
  Now there is another idea. The 1964 White Paper said that the Registrar of Monopolies should have a certain responsibility, subject to Board of Trade approval, for referring monopolies. It did not say that the Registrar of Monopolies should have the power of referring mergers. The 1964 White Paper was specific on this point. It said that the Board of Trade would have that power. The right hon. Member for Bexley (Mr. Heath), in the debate on the White Paper, was specific on this point. He said that the Government would have that power. When the Monopolies and Mergers Bill of 1965 was introduced, again it was made clear from the Opposition benches that the power of referring mergers would rest with the Government. The same point point was made by the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East on 10th November, 1969 in col. 99.
  In other words, this is a departure from those statements. It is not a bad idea because it is a departure, but one would have expected, if this departure were to be made, that there would have been some understanding of the associated issues involved. In my intervention, I asked the right hon. Gentleman certain specific questions, and I expected him to answer those questions because they were germane to this point. He said there would be a criterion, and I asked him what it would be. I asked him whether the £5 million asset test would continue and whether there would be power to hold up mergers pending the inquiry. The right hon. Gentleman answered none of these questions saying that his hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington would give the answer, but he did not. The answers were not given because these matters have not been thought out.
  This idea was evidently worked out at a Shadow Cabinet meeting the other night. The Opposition had to decide on a reason
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  for opposing the Bill, and they had to present themselves to the country as champions of competition. They would be voting against a Bill which was dedicated to increasing competition, and they had to have a reason for this. So they went back to their history books and revived the idea of the Registrar of Monopolies, without thinking out in specific terms what was involved in that proposal or what was involved in their proposals for the control of mergers generally.
  The Opposition say that if this system is introduced and there is a registrar of monopolies who will refer mergers, ministerial discretion will be avoided. They go on to say that, because of the great difficulty of establishing criteria, there will be a Government veto: in other words, there will be Ministerial discretion. If they are really interested in using a control over mergers to preserve competition, there must be a £5 million asset test. It is useless to limit oneself to cases which involve the creation of a monopoly or the intensification of a monopoly; one must also be concerned with the preservation of competition——
  Mr. Patrick Jenkin: That is a non sequitur.
  Mr. Dell: No doubt the hon. Gentleman will be on the Committee; we shall be glad to see him, as he knows a little about this subject, and we can then discuss whether it is a non sequitur.
  We need this power for a further reason which was given by the Monopolies Commission in a recent report. The one thing which is important if we are to have an efficient, competitive economy is the preservation of the well managed smaller firm which is often taken over by a larger firm without any increase in efficiency.
  My question whether there would be a standstill on a merger pending the inquiry was not answered. We are left in the ludicrous position in which the Opposition left themselves on the 1964 White Paper, that there would be inquiries into mergers, but, meanwhile, mergers would be allowed to go ahead. No doubt if the Commission found that a merger had been against the public interest, the parties would divest. There would obviously be no real power to deal adequately with that situation. In other words, this idea simply has not been thought through.

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  The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East—I regret his absence, since he knows about these subjects—said in the House on 10th November, 1969:
  "The Government have rightly in our view rejected legal guidelines for mergers."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th November, 1970; Vol. 191, c. 99.]
  If there is to be a registrar of monopolies referring mergers he will have to have guidelines.
  That is why I asked the right hon. Member for Mitcham what were the criteria. Either this registrar will have enormous discretion, or none. If there is to be enormous discretion, then the Government should exercise it, not a registrar. To have a registrar exercising this discretion would in no way reduce uncertainty. Indeed, he would rapidly lose public confidence. If he had no discretion it would be difficult, or virtually impossible, to draw up appropriate guidelines because it is impossible to define in advance the weight to be attributed to different factors in a merger situation.
  Therefore, there is need for discretion and that discretion must be the Government's—except, possibly, on one condition. Far more mergers would be referred under the Registrar of Monopolies than are referred at the moment, and this is inconsistent with a great deal of what has been said in this House about the advantages which would accrue from mergers.
  I have devoted a good deal more of my speech to this subject than did the right hon. Gentleman, because I happen to have thought about this subject. By all means let us discuss this matter in Committee. The main point is that if this suggestion is intended to increase competition and strengthen the situation, the Opposition should vote for the Bill and seek to move Amendments in Committee. But if they are to vote against the Bill, their Amendments will be regarded as probably signifying an intention not to strengthen the Commission and increase competition but to weaken it.
  Mr. R. Carr: The main reason that we are voting against this Bill, as the right hon. Gentleman knows quite well is because of the intolerable nature of Part II and the fact that they are making size a criterion for referral. Those are
  674
  two fundamental points which we will have none of since they have nothing to do with maintaining competition.
  Mr. Dell: The hon. and learned Member for Darwen made the point about size much more effectively than the right hon. Member for Mitcham has made it, and I will come to that point shortly.
  The Bill is about competition. It amalgamates the Monopolies Commission and the National Board for Prices and Incomes, but it does a great deal more than that. First, it establishes certain rights which the Government should exercise on behalf of the public through the instrumentality of a Commission such as this. The first right is to investigate and to bring matters of importance into public view—through educational reports, to follow what the right hon. Gentleman was saying in his opening speech, reports in respect of which there is no power in the Government unless something is found to be against the public interest.
  The second right is the right to check on results. It has been eloquently argued on both sides of the House that in modern competitive conditions, taking account of international trade and of modern economic scales of production, it is to be expected that in many cases larger size will mean greater efficiency and reduction of costs. If that be so—and it is so in many cases—do not let us assume that it is achieved. If there is to be a reduction in competition, we have a right to check.
  Reference was made to the influence of greater disclosure. More disclosure would certainly be of great assistance in considering mergers and their results and would be of particular assistance in respect of large companies. One thing the Bill does is to provide a reserve power in respect of disclosure. We are trying to establish a voluntary code of financial disclosure, with this power to back it up. My hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) asked me what was the present position.
  We have established a working party on disclosure, the first meeting of which is to take place shortly. The members of it are the Department of Employment and Productivity, the C.B.I., the Stock Exchange, the Institute of Chartered

  675
  Accountants, the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Technology. Where necessary, we will have discussions with the City Take-over Panel.
  The third right is the right to intervene, again where necessary to preserve competition or where necessary to deal with the situations which result when, for good reasons, one has to accept a reduction of competition in order to get the right economies of scale.
  The hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. David Howell) strongly supports this right to intervene. He said today that he strongly supported the right to intervene to preserve competition because, he said, there was a need to intervene to support and preserve competition. He made the same point towards the end of last year when he said:
  "Competition is not a natural phenomenon. It is a phenomenon only maintained by an increasingly sophisticated form of intervention."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd December, 1969; Vol. 792, c. 1647.]
  Evidently the hon. Gentleman does not like the Bill, but what he calls intervention will be called interference and meddling by many of his hon. Friends. However, I agree that we need intervention to preserve competition.
  We are concerned here not just with the regulation of monopoly abuses or the control of restrictive agreements. There is a need for action against the prevention, distortion and restriction of competition.
  I am asked why we do not limit this to monopolies and why size is introduced into the Bill—size both in respect of mergers and in respect of market power references. The monopoly criteria in any case—[Interruption.] I will not quarrel with the hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford—market power or non-market power. Often one does not know in advance until one has made a study. The hon. Gentleman should not assume that one can make a reference with certainty as to whether action against the public interest or a situation of market power or a restrictive agreement will be found to have been operating, despite the existence of the 1956 Restrictive Trade Practices Act.
  There is this size criterion, though it is not in itself a criterion for reference.
  676
  The monopoly criterion is a conventional figure—one-third of the market. I do not know what sort of validity the hon. and learned Member for Darwen attaches to one-third of the market. It could be 25 per cent.
  Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: I do not attach any theological significance to it, but the O.E.C.D. thought it a good rule.
  Mr. Dell: But many other countries consider other figures very good rules.
  I am coming to the point, why size? There are several reasons. First, there is a need to examine the whole of the firm concerned and not just the monopoly elements of it. Under the existing legislation, if a firm has a monopoly position the monopoly elements can be examined, but the non-monopoly elements which may be considerable and may have great influence over its monopoly activities are outside the legal coverage of the Monopolies Commission. It is a point of some significance in considering certain firms, of which it is easy to find examples.
  There is also the fact that size can lead to a reduction in competition. I will give two examples. One is reciprocal buying. That is a practice which has been causing concern recently in the United States. There was an important case in 1965 on the point. Another way in which size in itself can affect competition is by the transfer of resources within a company, particularly a conglomerate, completely changing the real nature of the competitive situation and, in a way, subsidising competition.
  These are reasons why one has to go beyond considerations of monopoly in the Bill. There is no presumption against monopoly or size any more than in the existing monopoly legislation there is a presumption against monopoly.
  The grounds for reference indicated in Clause 2(2) are more specifically defined than in previous legislation. The particular part of the subsection to which I draw attention is
  "any question relating to the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition, any question relating to the use made of a dominant position in any sector of the economy".
  Though size itself is not a criterion, it has to be within the size criterion, but there has to be some other reason. This widening of the scope of references is

  677
  needed if we are not just going to regulate monopolies to preserve competition.
  Mr. John Page: The right hon. Lady said today that Clause 26 gives the C.I.M. power to investigate any industry or firm. I believe that she made a mistake. Would the right hon. Gentleman care to correct her?
  Mr. Dell: I am sure that my right hon. Friend did not make a mistake. Clause 26 deals with general references which both the Monopolies Commission and the National Board for Prices and Incomes can currently undertake. The C.I.M. will be able to undertake them, but there will be no powers following these reports. In other words, they will be for the information of the public and possible further legislation.
  Reference has been made, particularly by my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Atkinson), to the C.B.I. My hon. Friend was afraid that we were doing too much to conciliate the C.B.I. At any rate, I think that he will agree that we have not had much success. Frankly, I did not expect very much success, given its initial attitude.
  In considering any competition legislation in this country, one bears in mind, as I think right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite would bear in mind, the attitude of the predecessor of the C.B.I. to the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956. The C.B.I. has not even welcomed the fact that we are excluding smaller businesses from scope, except where they are in a monopoly position or in an oligopolistic position. The C.B.I. mainly represents the larger firms. But even the C.B.I. accepts that there is a new concept, of which the Government are entitled to take note, which is called near monopoly. In other words, it, too, thinks that it is necessary to go outside the current monopoly criterion.
  Nevertheless, despite the disagreements which we have had with the C.B.I., it is nonsense to suggest, as it seems to have been suggesting, that we have taken no notice of the views that it has expressed to us. On the contrary, we have, in redefining the public interest in Clause 31, introduced, as one of the conditions of which the Commission must take note in making its studies, new projects and new investment. We have introduced powers, to which my right hon. Friend
  678
  specifically referred, in relation to prices. There will be a limitation on the use of our powers, following a report, concerning prices and the period, unlike current legislation, in respect of which those prices can be controlled. There is also what we are doing about procedure.
  The response of the C.B.I. to these discussions and what we have done to attempt to meet its views where we could, consistent with the basic philosophy of this legislation, has been to advise its members to cease giving us 28 days prior notification—a completely irresponsible response.
  I understand that there will be briefing for hon. Members from the C.B.I. which will no doubt be useful in Committee. It will be interesting to observe whether these briefs will be used in the interests of weakening the legislation or strengthening competition.
  Why, then, have the Opposition decided to oppose the Bill? The right hon. Member for Mitcham seemed to suggest that, following a report of the Commission, the Government would have powers at large. He thought that we could throw out the recommendations of the Commission and do what we like. This is not the case. On the contrary, the use of powers is more strictly controlled under this legislation than under the existing monopolies legislation. The use of powers has to be relevant to the findings regarding the public interest.
  Another reason which the right hon. Gentleman gave was what he judged to be the wrong power of control over prices which exists in the Bill, there being no power to control wage settlements. I was not quite sure what point he was arguing from time to time. At one time he seemed to be arguing that price control would reduce investment. At another time he seemed to be arguing that price control had failed. I do not know on which of those legs he will come down.
  The interesting thing on which the right hon. Gentleman mainly did not appear to be able to make up his mind was whether there should be any power of statutory control over prices in the case of market power situations. Under the existing monopolies and mergers legislation, there is a power of control over prices in the conditions governed by that

  679
  legislation where it is found that they are against the public interest.
  Here, given the increase in scope, we have power over prices where it is found that there is action against the public interest and where there is unreasonable use of market power. Even the C.B.I. has not said to us that in non-competitive conditions, in what it calls monopoly or near-monopoly conditions, there should not be a power of control over prices. Of course there should be. It is a necessary safeguard to the public interest in these cases.
  Then we come to the major objection, and that is that we do not include in the Bill any power of control over the trade unions' market power, or trade union restrictive practices. As my right hon. Friend said, there is a power of investigation and publicity given in Clause 26, which deals with general references. It would be ridiculous to introduce into a Bill of this sort, even if it were sensible at all, dealing as it does with commercial and industrial situations, a power of control over restrictive practices by trade unions. The Opposition themselves do not suggest it. What they suggest in "Fair Deal at Work" is that there should be reports by their productivity board, and they say that these reports will be highly influential. There is no reason to suppose that the reports made by the commission in this respect will be any less influential.
  The Opposition have never suggested that these two aspects of market power,
  if one likes, should be mixed up in the same legislation, and again I regard this as an absurd reason for opposing this Measure. But even if there were some merit in this reason, why should the Opposition, if they are interested in competition, oppose what the Bill will do to protect the consumer, to protect the smaller firm fighting against the market power, sometimes improperly exercised, of the larger firms? As my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton said, the reasons given by the Opposition for voting against this legislation are completely bogus.
  The real fact is that the Opposition had to find some reason to vote against it. They do not, after all, want to vote against their financial sponsors who are covered in the Bill, and therefore they are showing again a lack of courage in their convictions, and a dedication to words without deeds. They want an abrasive society for everyone else, but the monopoly profit of an easy life for the large firms in this country.
  I shall again quote the interesting and true words which my right hon. Friend quoted from the speech of the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East:
  "Left to themselves, most business men would share the market and keep newcomers out."
  That is what the Opposition want to happen. We, through the Bill, will prevent it from happening.
  Question put:—
  The House divided: Ayes 279, Noes 230.

  Division No. 97.]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Albu, Austen

  Boston, Terence

  Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Allen, Scholefield

  Boyden, James

  Dalyell, Tam

  Anderson, Donald

  Bradley, Tom

  Darling, Rt. Hn. George

  Archer, Peter (R'wley Regis & Tipt'n)

  Bray, Dr. Jeremy

  Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)

  Ashley, Jack

  Brooks, Edwin

  Davies, E. Hudson (Conway)

  Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw)

  Broughton, Sir Alfred

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.)

  Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper)

  Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)

  Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek)

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Barnes, Michael

  Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Barnett, Joel

  Buchan, Norman

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Baxter, William

  Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

  Delargy, H. J.

  Beaney, Alan

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Dell, Edmund

  Bence, Cyril

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Diamond, Rt. Hn. John

  Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

  Cant, R. B.

  Dickens, James

  Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Dobson, Ray

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Carter-Jones, Lewis

  Doig, Peter

  Binns, John

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Dunn, James A.

  Bishop, E. S.

  Coe, Denis

  Dunnett, Jack

  Blackburn, F.

  Coleman, Donald

  Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Concannon, J. D.

  Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Conlan, Bernard

  Eadie, Alex

  Booth, Albert

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Edelman, Maurice

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Kenyon, Clifford

  Pentland, Norman

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

  Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

  Ellis, John

  Lawson, George

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg

  English, Michael

  Leadbitter, Ted

  Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)

  Ennals, David

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton)

  Probert, Arthur

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock)

  Randall, Harry

  Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

  Lee, John (Reading)

  Rees, Merlyn

  Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)

  Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold (Cheetham)

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Faulds, Andrew

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Richard, Ivor

  Fernyhough, E.

  Lipton, Marcus

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Finch, Harold

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy

  Fitt, Gerard (Belfast, W.)

  Loughlin, Charles

  Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

  Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir Eric (Islington, E.)

  Luard, Evan

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St. P'c'as)

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  McCann, John

  Rodgers, William (Stockton)

  Ford, Ben

  MacColl, James

  Roebuck, Roy

  Forrester, John

  MacDermot, Niall

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Fowler, Gerry

  Macdonald, A. H.

  Rose, Paul

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  McElhone, Frank

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William

  Freeson, Reginald

  McGuire, Michael

  Rowlands, E.

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  Mackie, John

  Ryan, John

  Gardner, Tony

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

  Garrett, W. E.

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Sheldon, Robert

  Ginsburg, David

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.

  Golding, John

  MacPherson, Malcolm

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

  Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

  Short, Rt. Hn. Edward (N'c'tle-u-Tyne)

  Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Short, Mrs. Renée (W'hampton, N. E.)

  Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

  Gregory, Arnold

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Sillars, J.

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Mapp, Charles

  Silverman, Julius

  Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J.

  Marks, Kenneth

  Slater, Joseph

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Marquand, David

  Small, William

  Hamling, William

  Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Snow, Julian

  Hannan, William

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Harper, Joseph

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Mendelson, John

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Mikardo, Ian

  Strauss, Rt. Hn. John

  Haseldine, Norman

  Millan, Bruce

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Hattersley, Roy

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Taverne, Dick

  Hazell, Bert

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. George

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)

  Thornton, Ernest

  Henig, Stanley

  Molloy, William

  Tinn, James

  Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Tomney, Frank

  Hilton, W. S.

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Tuck, Raphael

  Hobden, Dennis

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Urwin, T. W.

  Hooley, Frank

  Morris, John (Aberavon)

  Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

  Horner, John

  Moyle, Roland

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Wallace, George

  Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)

  Murray, Albert

  Watkins, David (Consett)

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Newens, Stan

  Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)

  Howie, W.

  Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip

  Weitzman, David

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Norwood, Christopher

  Wellbeloved, James

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Oakes, Gordon

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Ogden, Eric

  White, Mrs. Eirene

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Whitlock, William

  Hunter, Adam

  O'Malley, Brian

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Hynd, John

  Oram, Bert

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Irvine, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur

  Orbach, Maurice

  Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)

  Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh)

  Orme, Stanley

  Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)

  Janner, Sir Barnett

  Oswald, Thomas

  Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)

  Willis, Rt. Hn. George

  Jeger, George (Goole)

  Padley, Walter

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.)

  Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

  Winnick, David

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Paget, R. T.

  Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Woof, Robert

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

  Wyatt, Woodrow

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Park, Trevor

  Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

  Parker, John (Dagenham)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West)

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Mr. James Hamilton and

  Judd, Frank

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Mr. Ernest Armstrong.

  Kelley, Richard

  NOES

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Bell, Ronald

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm)

  Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Braine, Bernard

  Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n)

  Biffen, John

  Brewis, John

  Awdrey, Daniel

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Baker, Kenneth (Acton)

  Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

  Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Balniel, Lord

  Blaker, Peter

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Bossom, Sir Clivc

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M)

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)

  Bullus, Sir Eric

  682

  683

  Burden, F. A.

  Hordern, Peter

  Percival, Ian

  Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.)

  Hornby, Richard

  Peyton, John

  Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Carr, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Hunt, John

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Pounder, Rafton

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Powell, Rt. Hn. Enoch

  Chataway, Christopher

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Clegg, Walter

  Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

  Pym, Francis

  Cooke, Robert

  Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

  Jopling, Michael

  Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

  Cordle, John

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

  Corfield, F. V.

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Kimball, Marcus

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Crouch, David

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Crowder, F. P.

  King, Tom

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Cunningham, Sir Knox

  Kirk, Peter

  Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Kitson, Timothy

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Dance, James

  Lambton, Antony

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Davidson, James (Aberdeenshire, W.)

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Royle, Anthony

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Lane, David

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Dean, Paul

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

  Lawler, Wallace

  Scott, Nicholas

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Sharples, Richard

  Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'nC'dfield)

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Eden, Sir John

  Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Longden, Gilbert

  Speed, Keith

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Stainton, Keith

  Emery, Peter

  MacArthur, Ian

  Stodart, Anthony

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

  Fisher, Nigel

  McMaster, Stanley

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

  Tapsell, Peter

  Fortescue, Tim

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Foster, Sir John

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

  Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

  Maddan, Martin

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Fry, Peter

  Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

  Temple, John M.

  Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

  Marten, Nej

  Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Maude, Angus

  Tilney, John

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Mawby, Ray

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Glover, Sir Douglas

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Glyn, Sir Richard

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Goodhart, Philip

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Waddington, David

  Gower, Raymond

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Walker, Peter (Worcester)

  Grant-Ferris, Sir Robert

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Monro, Hector

  Wall, Patrick

  Gurden, Harold

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Walters, Dennis

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Ward, Christopher (Swindon)

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Hamilton, Lord (Fermanagh)

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

  Murton, Oscar

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Williams, Donald (Dudley)

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Neave, Airey

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

  Nicholls, Sir Harmar

  Winstanley, Dr. M. P.

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Hastings, Stephen

  Nott, John

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Hawkins, Paul

  Onslow, Cranley

  Worsley, Marcus

  Hay, John

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Wright, Esmond

  Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

  Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian

  Wylie, N. R.

  Heseltine, Michael

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Younger, Hn. George

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Hiley, Joseph

  Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Hill, J. E. B.

  Peel, John

  Mr. Jasper More and

  Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin

  Mr. Anthony Grant.

  Holland, Philip

  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

COMMISSION FOR INDUSTRY AND MANPOWER [MONEY]
Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to establish a Commission with functions similar to those hitherto performed by the Monopolies Commission and the National Board for Prices and Incomes and certain other functions it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—

(a) remuneration, allowances, and other payments to or in respect of members of that Commission;

(b) expenses incurred by that Commission;

(c) any sums payable under that Act by reason of any person's ceasing to be a member of the Monopolies Commission or of the National Board for Prices and Incomes; and

(d) any expenses incurred by any Government department under that Act.—[Mr. Dell.]

10.9 p.m.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: The Money Resolution says that we are
"…to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of
(a) remuneration, allowances, and other payments to or in respect of members of that Commission…"
We have had it made clear that a chairman will be appointed. We have had it made just as clear from the Opposition Front Bench that, after the next General Election, we shall have to disband this Commission.
I want a clear undertaking that there will be no quesion of using any of these moneys to enter into a contract for any period of years with the chairman when that contract might have to be broken, thereby involving a future Government in having to pay compensation from the taxpayers' money.
The words are quite clear. If we pass this Motion without an undertaking it could be, and from the words we heard during the debate it is likely that an appointment would be made under a contract, perhaps for years, which could only be ended by compensation which would not be fair. I would like that undertaking before the House is asked lo approve the Motion.
The Minister of State, Department of Employment and Productivity (Mr. Edmund Dell): I can certainly not give the hon. Gentleman any such undertaking. The chairman will be appointed. Not to appoint a chairman would stultify the activity and operation of the Commission. A contract will be negotiated with the chairman when he is appointed. I certainly give the House no undertaking of the sort that I am asked for.
Question put and agreed to.

PORTS BILL (BUSINESS COMMITTEE)
Ordered,
That the Report [7th April] from the Business Committee be now considered.—[Mr. Mulley.]
Report considered accordingly.
Question, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution, put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 43A (Allocation of time to Bills) and agreed to.
The following is the Report of the Business Committee:
That the following provisions shall apply to the remaining Proceedings in the Standing Committee on the Ports Bill:—
1.—(1) Twenty-one days in all, including Tuesday 27th January and later days on which the Committee have already sat when these recommendations take effect, shall be allotted to the consideration of the Bill by the Committee.
(2) The Proceedings to be taken on the 19th to 21st days shall be as shown in the first and second columns of the Table at the end of this paragraph.
(3) The Proceedings which are to be so taken on any day shown in the first column of that Table shall, if not previously brought to a conclusion, be brought to a conclusion on that day at the time shown in the third column of that Table.

TABLE

Day

Proceedings

Time for conclusion of Proceedings p.m.

19

Remaining Clauses

6.20

20

Proposed Clauses

12.50

Schedules 1, 2 and 4

10.20

21

Schedules 5, 6 and 8 to 11 and proposed Schedules

12.50

2.—(1) At a Sitting of the Standing Committee at which any Proceedings are so to be brought to a conclusion the Chairman shall not adjourn the Committee under any Order relating to the Sittings of the Committee until the Proceedings have been brought to a conclusion.
(2) In Proceedings on the Bill in Standing Committee:

(a) no Motion shall be made relating to the sittings of the Committee except by a Member of the Government, and the Chairman shall permit a brief explanatory statement of the reasons for the Motion from the Member who moves, and from a Member who opposes, the Motion, and shall then put the Question thereon;

(b) there shall not be made, except by a Member of the Government, any dilatory Motion or any Motion to postpone any Clause, Schedule, proposed Clause or proposed Schedule, and the Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith.

(3) On the conclusion of the Proceedings in the Standing Committee on the Bill the Chairman shall report the Bill to the House without putting any Question.

3.—(1) For the purpose of bringing to a conclusion any Proceedings in accordance with
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these recommendations which have not previously been brought to a conclusion, the Chairman shall forthwith proceed to put the following Questions (but no others), that is to say:—

(a) the Question or Questions already proposed from the Chair, or necessary to bring to a decision a Question so proposed (including, in the case of a proposed Clause or proposed Schedule which has been read a second time, the Question that the Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill);

(b) the Question on any Amendment or Motion standing on the Order Paper in the name of any Member, if that Amendment or Motion is moved by a Member of the Government;

(c) any other Question necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded, and on a Motion so moved for a new Clause or a new Schedule, the Chairman shall put only the Question that the Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill.

4. Nothing in these recommendations shall—

(a) prevent any Proceedings in Standing Committee on the Bill from being taken or completed earlier than is required by the recommendations; or

(b) prevent any Proceedings on the Bill from being proceeded with on any day after the completion of all such Proceedings on the Bill as are to be completed on that day.

WHITE FISH (PRICES)
10.17 p.m.
The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Norman Buchan): I beg to move,
That the White Fish Authority (Minimum Prices) (Scotland and Northern Ireland) Scheme Confirmatory Order 1970, a draft of which was laid before this House on 5th March, be approved.
As the House knows, the White Fish Authority has felt for some time that a statutory minimum prices scheme was needed for the industry. A similar scheme operated for herring by the Herring Industry Board has worked well for many years. In 1967, the Authority endeavoured to promote a United Kingdom scheme backed by a system of guaranteed payments. The Government were not able to offer the Authority Exchequer support for such a scheme and the Authority decided finally not to submit formal proposals to Ministers for confirmation.
The scope of the scheme before the House tonight is more restricted in that it applies only to Scotland and Northern Ireland and does not provide for any system of guaranteed payments. The Order is an enabling one. Broadly, it will enable the Authority to designate areas of Scotland and Northern Ireland and to prescribe minimum prices applicable in these areas to all first-hand sales and purchases of such species of white fish as the Authority may determine. Under the powers provided by the Order, the Authority can designate the whole, or parts, of Scotland and Northern Ireland, and subject to the approval of Ministers, can fix minimum prices for all or any type of white fish.
For the effective regulation of the scheme licences to operate will be required by producers and buyers and sellers at first hand. My right hon. Friends have considered the scheme submitted to them by the Authority and, as required by Statute, have had consultations with the Authority about the modifications which they regard as necessary. These modifications are set out in Article 2 of the Order. The scheme as modified, and this is important, is set out in the Schedule to the Order.
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It might be useful if I say something about one or two of these modifications. The most important relates to powers to deal with contraventions of the scheme. The Authority's proposals would have given it the power to suspend, revoke, or refuse to renew a licence where a contravention of the scheme took place. Since any contravention of the scheme would in any case be an offence under the Sea Fish Industry Act, 1951, it would attract the penalties laid down in that Act.
Under the Act, a court, on conviction, may impose a fine not exceeding £25 for a first offence and £100 for a subsequent offence. In addition, a fine not exceeding the value of the fish may also be imposed.
Mr. W. H. K. Baker: I did not catch what the hon. Gentleman said at the beginning of his remarks about the Sea-Fish Industry Act. Do penalties to which he referred come under that Act?
Mr. Buchan: Yes. The reference back is made in the scheme and the fines are established there. The third point I made was that a fine, which would not, of course, exceed the value of the fish, could also be imposed.
While my right hon. Friends appreciated the Authority's desire to exercise a close control over the operation of the scheme, they decided that the penalties provided in the Act should suffice for the effective operation of the scheme. Under Article 2(h) of the Order, therefore, they have removed the Authority's proposed enforcement powers. A possible loophole in any minimum price arrangements is the giving away of an extra quantity as a bonus with a purchase. A new provision introduced as a modification to paragraph 8(2) of the scheme would make any such act a contravention of the scheme.
With one exception, also we have specifically removed retail purchases from the scope of the scheme in the definition of purchase under paragraph 3 so as to avoid creating the technical offence that might otherwise arise if, for example, a housewife happened to buy fish on the quayside at first hand without being in possession of a licence. The exception is in paragraph 8(2) of the Order, where it was decided that the exclusion of retail

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purchases would not be appropriate because of the possible loophole it might create.
We also decided that any conditions to be included in licences and all increases in minimum prices above the level previously approved by them should be subject to their approval. The Authority had proposed that such approval should be required only where the new minimum price fixed by the Authority exceeded the price already approved by more than 10 per cent.
As hon. Members may know, the catching side of the industry in Scotland and Northern Ireland has wanted for some time to see a system of statutory minimum prices in force. Other sections of the industry have had some reservations—though they have not been opposed in principle to a minimum prices scheme. In deciding to confirm the Authority's scheme, with modifications, my right hon. Friends took these objections fully into account. Their conclusion was that it was in the public interest that a statutory scheme on the lines proposed should be introduced to create a firm market for a highly perishable product.
I commend the Order to the House so that the Authority may be enabled, after consultation with the interests concerned, to go ahead with publication and subsequent submission to Ministers of their minimum price proposals.
10.24 p.m.
Mr. Anthony Stodart: The Joint Under-Secretary of State has made what I might describe as a rather typical, timid approach to a matter which is of considerable and substantial importance. The minimum price scheme has been advocated and recommended for a number of years. Scotland may take credit for pioneering it, and I never fail to give the hon. Gentleman credit for doing something in the right direction. A statutory minimum price scheme is absolutely essential for the fishing industry. I hope that, as usual, what Scotland says tonight, England and Wales will echo before long.
I was slightly surprised to hear the Under-Secretary of State say, almost with a note of satisfaction in his voice, that no guarantee payments were involved. If he takes the trouble, as I have done, to
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look up the annual debates on the fishing industry, particularly those which took place between 1959 and 1964, when, I suppose, I first started to take an interest in the fishing industry, he will see repeated calls from Opposition Members interested in the fishing industry for a guaranteed minimum price with Government involvement.
A guaranteed minimum price is absolutely essential to the stability of an industry which can make a tremendous contribution to food production and thus to import saving which must inevitably be to the benefit of the nation and the economy. The cost involved to the United Kingdom would be small compared with its value and, compared with the Scottish and Northern Ireland schemes, infinitesimal.
The White Fish Authority wishes to have powers to suspend, revoke or refuse to renew licences which it is to be authorised to issue. The Scottish Trawler Federation has put its view on the Government's refusal to entertain such powers in a letter which it has sent to me and no doubt to other hon. Members. These powers have not been included in the scheme. The interests of the Scottish Trawler Federation have for as long as I can remember been by no means identical with those of the fishing industry in England. This has made legislation for the fishing industry extremely difficult. The interests of the two fleets in the two countries have been different. The English industry is based on the distant-water fleet and the Scottish industry is based much more on the inshore and the near and middle-water fleets.
The last thing that I would wish to do is to give the impression that the scheme will fail and be totally unsuccessful because those powers have not been included. I am interested to know why the Government have declined to give the White Fish Authority these powers. I believe that I am right in saying that precisely the same powers have been in existence for the past 19 years, since 1951, under paragraph 19 of the Herring Industry Board Scheme, the Herring Industry Board having power to refuse or to revoke licences.
I presume that there was some reason why the Government have not been prepared to give the White Fish Authority the same powers. Have they any reason

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to suppose that the powers given to the Herring Industry Board have been in any way abused during that time?
There is no question that the White Fish Authority feels that the scheme will not work with the efficiency it would wish it to have without these powers. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will tell us what has caused the Government to deny to the Authority the powers which they have given to the Herring Industry Board and which that board has operated for a long time.
What sort of level of minimum prices is envisaged? I imagine that there have been discussions between the Department and the White Fish Authority on this subject. The Aberdeen trawling industry has operated a voluntary and quite non-statutory minimum price scheme since 1963. During these seven years, a certain amount of experience must have been gained. How often have the minimum prices been reviewed since 1963? If minimum prices are to be fixed, how often are they likely to be reviewed under the scheme?
Naturally, in view of the inflationary process now going on—on which we commented at a slightly later hour last night in another context—it is of importance to know, if minimum prices are to be fixed, how often they are to be reviewed. I take it that this also has been a matter for discussion between the Government and the Authority.
We all know that the Aberdeen scheme was falling foul of the restrictive practices legislation and would almost certainly have run into considerable trouble later this year if it had been proceeded with. It is, I think, to be superseded, virtually, by the scheme now before us. Can the Minister tell us whether the Aberdeen interests will be allowed to continue with that part of their scheme—which, though not, I think, covered by the Order, is of great importance—which provides a measure of guarantee to their members? That measure of guarantee is an extremely important feature of the Aberdeen scheme at present. Will the Government scheme have any effect upon that facet of what has so far been a successful operation?
The Order is a move in the right direction, though I wish that it could have gone a little further. I have in mind the
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difficulties experienced during the years in which I have come to take a considerable interest in the fishing industry, and have become only too aware of the difference of outlook in the fishing industry north and south of the Border. I am quite convinced that the Order may prove to be of very much greater importance than may appear at the moment. Many people might be inclined to say that this is a comparatively minor issue, but I regard it as of great importance. It is an issue which may prove to be the genesis of something of enormous importance to our fishing industry as a whole.
I have nothing but a welcome to give to this proposal, although I am a little surprised, in the light of all that used to be said about the need for Government involvement, that the Minister has not felt able to announce the Government's active interest in the scheme.
10.37 p.m.
Mr. Kevin McNamara: I apologise to Scottish Members for entering a debate which, on the surface, appears to be purely of Scottish interest, but it is of far more than Scottish interest. It is of interest to the rest of the United Kingdom fishing industry.
I welcome the demand made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Stodart) for fresh Government subsidies for the industry. Subsidies are not something that I have at any time opposed on any doctrinaire grounds, but I should have thought it a little contrary to the Opposition's current philosophy about Government subsidies, and the like. That, however, is just an aside.
Has my hon. Friend any observations to make about the effect of the scheme on the English market? There is in England some concern about the overall effect when fish landed in Scotland is sold outside the designated areas. The scheme is aimed, quite properly, at giving a reasonable price to the producer and enabling us to have an increasing price stability for the consumer. That will lead to better employment prospects for fishermen and, therefore, to an expansion in the industry. But we are somewhat worried about the effect of that expansion if fish landed in Scotland comes into England in increasing quantities.
On Humberside, we already sell fish that has been landed in Scotland. Fish

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landed in non-B.T.F. ports and sold in our markets is not subject to the B.T.F. voluntary minimum. It is possible that, if there is a surplus of edible fish landed in Scotland, it will be sent out of the designated areas into England, where it will be sold at whatever price it will fetch, and this could under-cut the market for the English fishermen. We hope eventually that the English industry will adopt a similar scheme, as this is the only way to meet this problem.
The main problem in England has been twofold. First, the inshore fishermen generally have been against any minimum price scheme unless——
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harry Gourlay): Before the hon. Gentleman departs too far from the Order, I would remind him that this is a Scottish and Northern Ireland Order. He may refer to England in an incidental fashion.
Mr. McNamara: I appreciate that. I think that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, would be the last person to say that I have not always shown a consistent interest in matters concerning Northern Ireland and Celtic problems generally.
If I may develop the points made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Stodart), there has been a disagreement among our inshore fishermen that they would welcome a minimum prices scheme if there were an Exchequer interest in it. The inshore industry in Scotland is doing particularly well at the moment, because of the extension of the limits of the better quality fish. They have been able to land increased quantities and have had better markets. Many of their fears and much of the desire they have for an Exchequer subsidy has gone.
The second fear of the B.T.F. is that there might be too much cross-subsidisation, with different types of fish, different vessels, and so on, with a general scheme, and they would therefore like it to be limited into strict categories. This argument does not appeal to me; it seems to be a selfish argument. I would like to see a more general principle applied.
I am sure the hon. Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) will accept most of the burden of the arguments which I have advanced. Welcome as the scheme is in Scotland, there is a fear, particu-
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larly on Humberside, that it might be used as an opportunity to under-cut our markets, and that it could possibly be evaded. I would like to hear my hon. Friend's observations on these points.
10.43 p.m.
Mr. Alick Buchanan-Smith: My constituency is interested in inshore fishing, to which the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) has referred, and particularly in the very high quality fish, the line-caught fish, which, as the Minister will appreciate, is the best quality fish landed anywhere in the British Isles.
May I ask the Minister how the scheme will affect the inshore fishing in villages such as Gourdon, in my constituency? Line fishermen land quality fish, but they are a minority interest in the industry. In schemes like this, and in negotiations with the White Fish Authority and the Government, it is the bigger interests and the bigger ports, such as Aberdeen, which so often prevail. What will be the effect of the scheme on the smaller ports and on the inshore fishing interests, which I represent? The small ports, with their quality fish, often enjoy better prices than are paid in the larger ports.
What are the fishermen likely to be subjected to under the scheme in terms of licensing? I hope that the interests of fishermen and fish merchants in these ports will be properly considered. This is a small but important section of the industry, not only in regard to the quality of fish, but also in terms of the work they provide to villagers owing to the fact that there are few alternative forms of employment and little economic activity.
I hope that the Minister and the White Fish Authority will bear in mind the importance of this particular section of the industry.
10.47 p.m.
Mr. Patrick Wolrige-Gordon: I, too, welcome the scheme, which is a step in the right direction.
I understand the fears expressed by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) about the possible effects of the scheme in England. I hope the effect will be that the scheme will be extended to the whole of the United Kingdom as soon as possible. It could well be that in certain matters if

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there is not a uniform practice for the whole country the Scottish industry would be at a disadvantage vis-à-vis the English industry.
The Scottish and Irish industries should be saluted for making this pioneer venture, regardless of what the rest of the United Kingdom may do. It may be the real advantages will be that it will be possible to plan the scheme specifically for the Scottish and Northern Irish situation. Those of us who are interested in the fishing industry will watch to see how the scheme will work.
Could we be told how the prices will be fixed, and at what level? I have had many expressions of support from the catching bodies. The situation in Scotland where ports have been undercutting the market has got beyond a joke. There is some feeling in the industry that to be effective the minimum price scheme must be backed by a substantial extension of fish-meal and oil production capacity. What has the Minister to say about that aspect?
I was broadly in favour of the modifications to the scheme announced in the House on 26th February, particularly that the increases in prices and the conditions appertaining to them shall be approved by the Minister. I am not yet clear who will revoke licences and how discipline will be introduced. May we have some clarification from the Minister?
What will the procedure be if a licence holder is convicted of an offence? How will he be able to operate if he loses his licence, and what steps can he take to clear his name? How can he prevent his licence from being taken away from him; indeed, can he be stopped from getting a licence in the first place? May we be given more details about how the scheme will work and may we be told how much the licence fee will cost?
10.50 p.m.
Mr. W. H. K. Baker: I want to take up two points which were made by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara). He castigated my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Stodart) for requesting Government subvention in operating this scheme. Perhaps I might remind the hon. Gentleman that one of
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the reasons why the scheme is being implemented is to give the fishermen a leg up because of the continually rampaging rise in prices and costs that we have seen under his Government. In addition, no doubt the hon. Gentleman will remember that the Fleck Report of 1962 aimed at making the fishing industry viable without help within 10 years. Because of these imposts by the present Government, that has proved to be impracticable. Nevertheless, we hope that eventually the fishing industry will be self-sufficient and viable. Until that happens, it is essential to have Government subvention.
The other point made by the hon. Gentleman was that the inshore fishing industry is doing well at the moment. I do not dispute that it is doing moderately well, despite the very inclement weather experienced in recent months, but its success is due largely to the regrettable strike on Humberside and the lack of landings there.
Mr. McNamara: I will not enter into an argument on that issue, though I am more than willing to do so, but the inshore fleet was doing extremely well before the strike started.
Mr. Baker: I cannot go all the way with the hon. Gentleman, and I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Nott) about that as well.
I take a very poor view of the Government's refusal to give a subvention to help get the scheme under way. Last night, we had long debates on the Report stage of the Agriculture Bill, in the course of which the Government refused to give aid in the support buying of eggs under the proposed new egg authority. In my view, this is a parallel case. The necessary payments would have been minimal in amount but of inestimable value to the working of the scheme. I hope sincerely that it will not fail, but in my view it is essential that there is some backing.
I think that hon. Members will agree that, in the near future, we shall have another Government of a different complexion—[HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."] There is no doubt about it. I give notice to my right hon. and hon. Friends that I shall pursue this question of subvention in aid of this scheme to the utmost of my ability. It is absolutely essential.

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Having said that, I want to congratulate the White Fish Authority, the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland and, with one reservation, the Under-Secretary for the work which has been done to bring in this scheme. I welcome it and, in view of the fact that as recently as 28th March I had a joint meeting with all three branches of the Scottish Inshore White Fish Producers' Association in my constituency, I can say that I represent them in supporting the adoption of this Order.
Before coming to the Order itself, I want to make one or two general observations. First, I think that the Government have been dilatory in bringing in the Order. I understand that it was drafted by the White Fish Authority in 1968, and was followed by consultations on its provisions. In April, 1969, it was submitted to the Secretary of State for his approval.
In view of the consultations which have already taken place, I cannot understand why it has taken a year to bring the Order forward. All that emerges as a result of the year's delay are certain minor modifications to which reference has been made. If the Order had been brought in before the advertising levy, it would have been more favourably received both in this House and outwith it. As usual, the Government have got the cart before the horse.
I should like to put several questions to the Under-Secretary of State. First, when does he anticipate that the Order will become operative? I know that it will come into operation the day after it is signed by the various Secretaries of State. However, there will be a time lag while the issuing of licences, the publishing of the regulations, and so on, goes on. Can the hon. Gentleman give the House any indication when he thinks the whole thing will become operative?
Will the Minister also give the House any information of his hopes and aspirations about the expansion of the scheme to the whole of the United Kingdom? This is important in the light of certain findings by the Restrictive Trade Practices Court over the whole country.
Why have the Government seen fit to leave out sub-paragraphs (3) to (6) of paragraph 9 of the original draft Order?
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In opening, the Minister said that certain penalties can be applied from other Statutes. As the White Fish Authority would have liked these sub-paragraphs included, I should think that it means it thought that was the easiest way to enforce the regulations and the working of the scheme at large. I think that we are entitled to know the reasons for this course. They could have a salutary effect in minimising breaches of the scheme. From where did the pressure come to have these sub-paragraphs withdrawn?
Will the Minister define the designated areas mentioned in the Order when he comes to reply? Will he delineate them for us, however roughly?
In this connection, will the difference in the minimum price scheme be from area to area or for the whole of Scotland? That is a somewhat technical point of which I hope the Minister will take note. Will the differences be across the board? For instance, will the minimum price for, say, plaice, be the same between areas as for, say, haddock?
Reference has already been made to the licence. How will this be administered? Will it be a flat-rate licence for all producers irrespective of the size of boat? Will the licence be tied in varying amounts to boats varying in length in the different categories? Will the licence which is fixed be the same for producers, salesmen, merchants and so on?
What will be the sort of level for the minimum price? I suggest that it should be about 50s. as a mean target. Obviously we do not want it set too high; but we do not want it set too low. An equitable average figure, fair to all producers, must be kept in mind. This will need careful watching, because it will mean a level of stability in prices for the fisherman, and that to my mind is one of the main virtues of the scheme.
At present, there are wide fluctuations in prices in various ports, and I should like to illustrate this by taking the landings of lemon sole on 30th March. In Aberdeen, it was selling at 435s. to 440s. per cwt. At Arbroath, on the same day, it was selling at 38s. to 44s. per stone; at Macduff, at 45s. to 70s.; and at White-hills, at 43s. to 58s. I understand that under the E.E.C. fishing regulations the average price for the past three years is taken overall and that is then taken as

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the target price for the ensuing year. Under the present scheme, how often will the minimum price be subject to alteration? How often will it be reviewed?
I turn, now to paragraph 10 of the Schedule. I hope that in administering it the White Fish Authority will not be too stringent. It refers to the keeping of records by producers. Under existing conditions, fish salesmen and fishery officers have complete records of the landings of fish at the various ports. Indeed, the fish salesman is the authorised agent at each port for the share fisher-man's boats. It seems unnecessary to have skippers of inshore boats keeping records of a detailed nature when they exist in other forms. As the Minister knows, an inshore vessel at sea is pretty cramped and not exactly the ideal place for keeping records.
What does the Minister expect will be the total of the licence fees collected? What will it cost to administer the scheme? How will it be policed? For instance, how will it be made to work that the provisions which I have mentioned have been deleted from the scheme?
I deal, next, with paragraph 11. There has been a great deal of complaint particularly among inshore fishermen, about the selling of fish consigned for pet food for human consumption. I have personal knowledge that some is being filleted round the corner and sold for human consumption. This is clearly a breach of the present regulations, and the bringing of this into line is very important. The Minister knows that in the past it was possible to mark potatoes with a certain dye, and I understand that that was tried with fish sold for other than human consumption. I think that some substance could be found which would do the job now. I understand that some mink farmers complained that their mink would not eat the fish when treated with the dye that was produced originally, but I am sure that the wit of man can get round that one.
I return to the question of the level of minimum prices. Clearly, trawlers operating under group ownership can tolerate a lower minimum price. Indeed, it might be in their interest if the price is kept low. But that is not, as I see it,
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what the integral part of this scheme should be. We should have an equitable price balance, struck as a minimum price, in order that it may be fair to all sections of the industry. As I have said, I give a hearty welcome to this measure and I hope that it helps to give stability to the present structure of the fishing industry to the benefit of all fishermen.
11.6 p.m.
Mr. James Davidson: I merely want to welcome the Order and ask one question, not to make a speech. Paragraph 4(1) of the Order says:
"…the Authority may fix different minimum prices according to species or descriptions of fish or according to area or areas and may from time to time vary or cancel any minimum prices so fixed.…"
Sub-paragraph (2) states:
"Provided that this sub-paragraph shall not apply to the variation of a minimum price approved by the Ministers where the variation does not increase the price as so approved."
Envisaging the fact that, at certain times of the year, there may be a glut of a particular variety of fish, do I take it from that provision that two things can happen? These are that either the fish can be sold not for human consumption, which would seem a pity if the glut does not exist in other parts of the country, or it would be possible for the Authority at very short notice to reduce the minimum price of that variety in the area concerned and thus make it available more cheaply to the consuming public without getting permission from the Minister. To summarise, is it possible, in the event of a temporary glut of a particular variety of fish, for the Authority to lower the minimum price without the permission of the Minister in order to make that fish available for human consumption without being forced to sell it for other purposes?
11.8 p.m.
Mr. John Nott: My hon. Friend the Member for Banff (Mr. W. H. K. Baker) has a reputation for being an admirable constituency Member. He rightly represents the views of the fishermen in his constituency. I want to represent the views of the fishermen in mine, and their interests differ from those in his. I do not presume in any way to comment on the interests of the Scottish fishing industry, I hope that my

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hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Stodart) will not presume to comment on the interests of the fishing industry in Cornwall.
I say to the Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland that Cornwall is not England and that the interests of the Cornish fishing industry are not necessarily either those of the Scottish fishing industry or, indeed, those of the English fishing industry.
Mr. Wolrige-Gordon: Will my hon, Friend explain what Cornwall is?
Mr. Nott: Cornwall is a highly individualistic part of the United Kingdom which has strong views on its own interests and is entitled to them, just as Scotland is entitled to its views. What I want to say about minimum prices is that the Cornish fishing industry does not want them.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harry Gourlay): Order. We are discussing an Order which applies to Scotland and Northern Ireland and not to Cornwall. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will relate his remarks to that.
Mr. Nott: I appreciate the point, Mr. Deputy Speaker. But I think I am right in saying that the Order specifically excludes certain parts of the English fishing industry, and to that extent am I not in order in referring to the Cornish fishing industry with regard to minimum prices?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman cannot make any suggestion as to altering the Order to apply to England or otherwise.
Mr. Nott: Certainly. I am only seeking to say that although the Scottish fishing industry has particular interests which are represented in the Order, in fact the Order is concerned with minimum prices and specifically excludes the English fishing industry. I represent the leading English fishing port in the South-West.
Mr. McNamara: A Cornish fishing port.
Mr. Nott: Yes—a Cornish fishing port. We do not wish to see minimum prices extended. The inshore fishing
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industry in Cornwall is prospering regardless of the price.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Member must respect the Ruling of the Chair. I have ruled that he is out of order in seeking to discuss the Cornish fishing industry.
Mr. Nott: I leave the Cornish fishing industry aside and come to my conclusion. We are able to prosper adequately without minimum prices and I should not like to see the minimum prices which the Order applies to the Scottish fishing industry also applied to the Cornish industry. We are able to have a reasonably prosperous inshore fishing business. I hope that in replying to the debate the Minister will give me an assurance that these minimum prices will not be applied to the English and Cornish fishing industries.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The Minister has no responsibility for the assurance which the hon. Member is requesting.
11.12 p.m.
Mr. Buchan: I enjoyed listening to it nevertheless.
A number of points have been raised in the debate. I will deal with some of the individual points before turning to the basic argument.
The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. James Davidson) asked about glut conditions and the possibility of a speedy reduction in price. If it were a reduction in price previously approved by the Minister, it would not require a second Ministerial approval. He had in mind, no doubt, paragraph 16(3), which includes the words,
"such date or dates being not less than 7 days after such publication".
The hon. Member should realise that the main point is to seek to bring about some stability. If a reduction takes place, the necessary action can be taken.
He spoke of the difficulties which might arise if a glut took place at a time when there was no glut elsewhere. Of course, in that case fish would be taken into the other areas at the minimum price. We cannot insulate one port, particularly if it is a small port, and its price levels from the situation in other areas.
Other questions have been asked about the licence fee, the minimum price and

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the date of operation. Many of these points, for example the price levels, are matters for the White Fish Authority. The shape of the scheme will depend on proposals made by the Authority and the Minister's decision to approve, not to approve, or to approve, them with modifications having regard to possible objections and to any other relevant considerations. That would apply to other decisions, too, such as the designation of areas. At this stage, I cannot define which areas will be designated from time to time. That will be a matter on which proposals will come from the Authority.
Some hon. Members have asked—indicating the interest in the point—whether this is the first part of a scheme for the United Kingdom as a whole. I cannot answer that question. Much will depend, for example, on the views of the White Fish Authority, and on the views of the fishermen of England. But I am pleased that at least this stage, relating to Scotland and Northern Ireland, has been welcomed.
Mr. Patrick Wall: Does the hon. Member appreciate that if this scheme is to be applied to England, a prior necessity will be some Government subvention?
Mr. Buchan: My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, North (Mr. McNamara), moderate as always, had comments to make which might also stimulate me to make comments before I conclude.
A criticism made in the general argument was that this scheme is not very good because it does not include guaranteed prices. The scheme has been generally welcomed, even though I agree that a few criticisms have been made of it. I think it rather strange that the criticism of the lack of a guaranteed price should come from hon. Members opposite. The best comment I can make is that I accept completely what the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Stodart) said—truthfully, as always—that the Scheme was very timid, but he ended by saying that it was of enormous importance. I am prepared to accept this development of the hon. Gentleman's view. This is a pioneering step. It is useful, and it may well extend into other areas.
I hope, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that I may have your permission to comment
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on the point which was raised about the effect that this scheme will have on English ports. It seems to be a valid and fair point to make. I shall, of course, not discuss the Cornish point.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member may do so, so long as it is only incidental to his remarks.
Mr. Buchan: I shall be as incidental as I can, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
In the first place, I think this matter is speculative. We do not yet know how things will work out in practice. We ought to allow the scheme to develop so that we can see how it works. I do not think that we should be too ready to assume that there will be wholesale evasions. There is now an increasing interest in fish. It may be that we put things the wrong way round when we put the advertising scheme first. In fact, we believe in doing the important things first and we do not bother about the public image.
There is the expectation that fish sales will be backed up by the publicity campaign. I am far from expecting that the minimum prices in Scotland and Ireland will encourage over-fishing, I would expect consumption to increase. If the publicity scheme meets with success, I do not see any reason why our colleagues south of the Border should be worried about it. Indeed, with good supplies of fresh Scottish fish, I would expect a good demand for such fish in our country, too.
Nor do I think that the large-scale evasions which have been suggested will take place. The hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) was concerned about the effect of the scheme on the inshore fleet, and concern was also expressed lest it might be biased in favour of the large trawler owners. One of the effects of a minimum prices scheme would be to assist those concerned with quality fish, and, while I cannot analyse the effect on the line fishermen, I have no worries about their position. The best testimony that I can quote in this respect is the fact that the Scottish Inshore White Fish Association has welcomed the scheme. It has operated its own minimum prices schemes, and this scheme will assist those schemes.

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I was told that this wicked Government, who are, no doubt, also responsible for the weather that we have had during the last few months, wished to raise prices and put fishermen in difficulty. What absolute nonsense! It is the present Government who brought in a proper, efficient subsidy scheme for the first time. It should also be borne in mind that the overall value of the catch in Scotland and Northern Ireland was a record in 1969. The picture painted by the hon. Member for Banff (Mr. W. H. K. Baker) is sadly out of keeping with reality, and the understanding of that reality by Scottish fishermen.
The question of the likely level of prices, which also has been raised, is a matter for the White Fish Authority, and I cannot go into it. There is one incidental point. It was said that I referred to the guaranteed price with a great deal of satisfaction. It was an attempt to speak through the hubbub of the noise following the very satisfactory vote at 10 o'clock. It was not satisfaction: it was a raising of tone and no more than that.
I was asked about the relationship of the Aberdeen minimum prices scheme to the scheme. We know the history and the background. Whether the Aberdeen people now decide to continue their own arrangements is a matter for them. Our acceptance of the White Fish Authority's proposal in no way diminishes Aberdeen's right to continue their arrangement if they wish to do so. I understand, however, that the Scottish Inshore and Trawler Fishermen's Association has given an understanding to the Restrictive Practices Court to withdraw the minimum prices part of any arrangement which it has made once the statutory scheme comes into effect. This, however, is a matter for them.
The basic point, which I think was why I was accused of timidity, was on the question of withdrawing teeth because we are not giving the Authority the right to refuse or to renew licences. I think that the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Wolrige-Gordon)—who has left a note apologising for his inability to stay until the end of the debate—went wrong on this when he appeared to think that licences were still to be revoked. We have removed
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that from the scheme. I have been criticised for that. We gave very careful consideration to the point.
The hon. Member may know—I referred to this in opening the debate—that there is under the 1951 Act a fairly heavy system of fines, to which this scheme will be related. In addition to the maximum fine of £25 for the first offence and £100 for subsequent offences, there is also provision for a fine equal to the value of the catch to which the offence relates. We believe that these provisions should suffice without the addition of other measures to secure effective operation of the scheme.
Mr. W. H. K. Baker: Surely, when the White Fish Authority produced the scheme with the measures which it contained, it must have known equally with the Minister about the other penalties that were available. Why, therefore, did the Authority put them into the scheme as originally drafted?
Mr. Buchan: That is a question for the White Fish Authority. I am saying why we, as Ministers, have included these provisions in the Order. One must presume that the Authority thought that those were the right sanctions. Ministers did not regard them as the right sanctions. If the hon. Member wishes to know the Authority's arguments, he should ask the Authority.
The Herring Industry Board has used this sanction very little. I understand that there has been no prosecution for offences against the Board's minimum prices rule and that the Board has seldom, if ever, exercised its power to revoke licences. This power may be a deterrent, but we believe that its use under the 1951 Act is the right method.
Mr. Stodart: If the sanctions which are given to the Herring Industry Board are not given to the White Fish Authority, am I not right in saying that the only way in which the White Fish Authority can apply those sanctions is by going to the courts, a procedure which the Herring Industry Board is spared? Even if the Herring Industry Board has used these powers only sparingly, is it not more efficient that it should have the power that it has rather than that the Authority, under the scheme, should have to go to the courts to effect the penalties?
Mr. Buchan: First it is a big sanction to leave with a statutory board like this. Second, I doubt whether the kind of criteria which would need to be established before the suggested sanctions of revoking could be applied would be any more easy to establish than the kind of criteria which would allow of court action. This was the decisive consideration in making up my mind. It did not appear to have this ease of operation, and it appeared to be a heavy sanction.
I end where I began. The hon. Gentleman accused me of being timid. He ended by saying that this of much greater importance than at first appears. In fact, he said that it was very important. With that encomium, I am prepared to rest.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the White Fish Authority (Minimum Prices) (Scotland and Northern Ireland) Scheme Confirmatory Order 1970, a draft of which was paid before this House on 5th March, be approved.

COVENT GARDEN MARKET
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Ernest G. Perry.]
11.26 p.m.
Mr. John WellsI am seeking to raise this evening some of the problems for horticulture arising from the delays in moving Covent Garden Market to Nine Elms. A leading wholesaler in the market remarked to me yesterday that they would like to move to Nine Elms tomorrow if it were possible. Unfortunately, the delays that have occurred so far have put up the costs and some traders are a bit apprehensive about the ultimate price per square foot of stands in the new market. These delays were much exacerbated by the Government's economic stop measure of 20th July, 1966.
Interest rates have gone up sharply since the early days of the scheme, when 6 per cent. was the accepted figure, to last year when interest rates were nearly 10 per cent. This can only have an adverse effect on the final price, and on top of it the traders will have to finance
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all the fittings of their stands. The Market Authority is being very forward-looking in its ideas about the hiring of fork-lift trucks and so on, but it will still be a costly move to the traders, and I blame the present Government for this costliness.
An efficient, modern horticultural market is still essential, despite the increase in supermarket trading. The U.S.A. Department of Agriculture Economic Report No. 45 showed how the rapid early growth of direct supermarket trading levelled off at about 26 per cent. of the total horticultural trade. Hence the great modern New York market at Hunt's Point is fulfilling a very real economic need that helps producer, trader, and consumer alike.
Similarly, in France, the new Rungis Market outside Paris is of the greatest economic importance to France. The Rungis Market was, of course, heavily subsidised by the French Government and has been given every possible assistance to come into being, whereas our poor Nine Elms scheme has been devalued by the present Government to the same level as municipal offices and swimming pools. I cannot stress too heavily the economic need for this new market and the willingness of the traders to move.
The horticultural trade as a whole will be facing grave difficulties if we join the E.E.C. and the apple sector of the industry is not finding the going too easy at the present time, even without entry. It is, therefore, essential for a Government to set an economic climate that will help the producer and trader alike. It is generally realised that the wholesale trade is in considerable difficulties at the present time. There are bankruptcies left, right and centre. The inevitable amalgamations and take-overs are creating a situation in which it might be that there will only be 12 to 15 major traders surviving in a few years' time. The extra costs heaped upon the horticultural wholesale trade by the present Government have been very harmful. These include selective employment tax which co-operatives escape, steeply rising transport costs, and the training levy which adds little to the efficiency of the trade. On top of all this the Prices and Incomes Board has refused to allow

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wholesalers to put a surcharge on retailers.
If we are not careful, all this will tend to make for monopoly conditions in the long run. Both Runciman and the Prices and Incomes Board stress the point of competitiveness within the trade, but there is a grave danger at the present time of the trade cracking and either turning to monopoly conditions or turning to sharpish practices which would, of course, be disastrous. The 1926 Act set up standards of honesty within the trade which have been proudly maintained ever since.
The hours in the new market will, of course, have to be closely considered because another problem of the British trade is getting good people to work there, both executives and semi-skilled labour, because of the unattractive hours. Against this, there are those who feel that the hours now worked in the Rungis Market are not very civilised, either. I understand that in Rungis they start selling flowers at 2 p.m. and fruit and vegetables at 9 p.m.
The United Kingdom hours do not seem to tie in at all well with the dock hours and the Transport Act has added greatly to these difficulties, particularly with the long delays in the present market, whereas the traders are avidly looking forward to better transport conditions and movement in the new market.
I understand that the G.L.C.'s first stage of Vauxhall Cross is due to start in April, 1971, to be complete by the end of 1972. This should give adequate road access, but I hope that the central Government will give every assistance in maintaining this timetable so that Nine Elms, which should start in 1971 and be completed in 1973, will be served by adequate roads from the opening day onwards. The land acquisition for the new market is going on well, but there is no scope for any further delays of any sort and it must be the duty of the central Government to give this scheme a fair wind.
It will be remembered that the 1966 Act put a duty on the market authority to bring forward a scheme for compensation of the tenants who will be displaced, and put a duty on the local authorities to have a major redevelop-
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ment scheme in the area. As a result of this, the 1968 Act came forward, but unfortunately the central provisions of Part II of that Measure were removed in Committee, leaving a vacuum in the scheme.
The present situation is that the three local authorities—the G.L.C., Westminster and Camden—must get together and give planning permissions for redevelopment of the area so that those market traders who are freeholders, and the Authority itself, can get adequate compensation for their old premises. Until this is completed the traders are in grave danger of being lumbered with their old properties, where they are now trading, without any permitted use for them and they will be between the devil and the deep blue sea.
I remind the House of the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Clitheroe (Sir Frank Pearson), who was Chairman of the Select Committee that examined the 1968 Act. He said, on Tuesday, 16th July, 1968, in giving the conclusions of the Committee:
"The Committee accept that the Market Authority, the consortium of local government bodies and the Government are all vitally involved in finding an appropriate solution to the problem and should an agreed solution not be forthcoming, it is felt that the Government itself must take an early initiative by formulating a Bill."
What steps have the Government taken in the last year and a half to implement the early initiative which was demanded unanimously by the Select Committee?
A great national price-setting market is essential if we are to join the E.E.C. The other great London markets are already possibly on the move. Brentford has an attractive new site and Spitalfields has, I understand, been very recently offered the possibility of some land near the Surrey Docks.
While these moves may not be acceptable to some, there is great keenness by the market traders for this Covent Garden move, provided they get justice over their old sites and provided the new sites are not too expensive. There has been talk about the new sites being priced at about 38s. per square foot, plus rates. I realise that these sites will not be let on a square foot basis but on a unit basis. However, that is the average going price that has been discussed.

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It must be remembered that today's rents in the most costly part of the present market, namely, the heart of the Dedicated Market, are only just over £2 per square foot. If the price is too high, space will not be taken up and we will be reduced to the disastrous position that obtains in some other markets, such as Sheffield, where I understand that 15 per cent. of the warehouse space that was built for horticulture is now being used for general engineering purposes.
An efficient, modern market will give great economic benefits to all three sectors growers will get a fair price and their lorries will be turned round quicker, traders will get a fair return on their money and they will enjoy better working conditions, and consumers will get cheaper produce—or at least the present rise in prices should be checked.
A further economic advantage of the move will be in the important advantages of improved security. At present about £½ million a year is the estimated loss by pilferage and wastage. This is because security is almost impossible on the present site.
The old market is celebrating its tercentenary next month. Let us hope that these celebrations will be like the rebirth of a phoenix and will enable it to go forward to a new site for another 300 years of successful trading. If this is to be achieved, we must have a more positive attitude by the Government on the main matters that I have outlined tonight.
11.35 p.m.
Mr. John Nott: I wish to support my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Mr. John Wells). The sooner that the Nine Elms site can be in operation the better it will be for the horticultural area in Cornwall, which I represent. The Nine Elms site will be about three quarters of an hour in driving time closer to my constituency, which is one of the main horticultural areas of the country. An important point to bear in mind is that the provisions of the Transport Act have recently come into effect and have put a serious burden upon horticulturists in West Cornwall.
This is because drivers' hours regulations mean that horticulturists in West Cornwall are not able, within the prescribed driving time, to reach the main markets. The sad fact is that many
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farmers in my constituency are having to take their drivers to Bodmin, 40 miles away, in their own cars, to get them into their lorries, which then go on to Covent Garden. The farmer goes back to his farm, farms for twelve hours, then has to drive to Bodmin to pick up his lorry drivers.
This is an intolerable situation. Farmers in my constituency are spending two days a week taking drivers to and from their lorries 40 miles away so that they can get the produce to Covent Garden. The next Conservative Government will abolish the Transport Act, but if there is a continuation of the driving hours regulations it is critical to the early potato, broccoli and flower producers in my constituency that the Nine Elms scheme comes into effect as soon as possible. The present situation is quite intolerable, when farmers are having to spend hours per week taking drivers to and from Bodmin because of the regulations in the Act.
In discussing the whole Nine Elms scheme and the present Covent Garden arrangements, the Prime Minister was subjected to this complaint by farmers and horticulturists in my constituency. They made the point to him, and he told them only a week ago, on his return from the Isles of Scilly, that he was completely unaware that this intolerable situation existed following the passage of the Transport Act.
I support my hon. Friend, therefore, and urge the Minister to recognise that it is critical for horticulturists in West Cornwall that the Nine Elms scheme come into effect at the earliest possible moment. I should like him not only to comment on the likely date when the Nine Elms scheme will come into effect but also to say that he realises the major penalties under which the horticulturists of West Cornwall are working at present as a result of the drivers' hours regulations.
11.41 p.m.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John Mackie): The move of the country's largest horticultural market to a new site is a matter of considerable importance, and I am grateful to the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. John Wells) for raising the subject tonight so that we could have this short debate. He

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will realise that my right hon. Friend the other Joint Parliamentary Secretary, who is, unfortunately, in Iceland at the moment—I hope that the weather is a little warmer there than here—would have taken the debate as he has a particular interest in horticulture.
First, I shall take up the point made by the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Nott). I realise that transport is important for horticulture, but I am sorry to say that it has nothing to do with my Department. If my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is taking an interest in the matter, who am I to interfere, if I may say so? Every Act which is passed modifying hours or modifying conditions in transport or anything else is always said to be a disaster for one industry or another, but, somehow or other, we begin to co-ordinate things to suit the new conditions. I think that this will happen in transport. I am hearing all over the country that this does not fit a particular journey. It does not seem to fit any journey, as far as I can see, because I have had the complaint about all distances from 20 miles to 200 miles. However, I take the point, and I know how important transport is. I am glad that the transport arrangements at Nine Elms, which is on the right side for the hon. Gentleman's constituency, will help in that respect.
Anyone who has experienced the difficulties under which the Covent Garden market operates will be in no doubt that there is a need to provide efficient market facilities as soon as possible. Covent Garden attracts retailers from the Greater London area and beyond, and secondary wholesalers from the whole of the United Kingdom. The hon. Member for Maid-stone made the point that the Government were to blame for stopping the procedures in 1966 because of the credit difficulties. But Covent Garden has been carrying on, and produce from his area has continued to be marketed. Although there may have been difficulties, the world has not come to an end because we have slowed the process down.
An enormous volume of traffic passes through the market each year, 1 million tons of fruit, vegetables and potatoes, worth about £65 million, and £12 million worth of flowers. The larger part of this trading is in a smallish area of 6½
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to 7 acres within the Charter Market, but business is carried on also in the area round about. In all, an area of upwards of 30 acres is affected by marketing activities.
The need for improved facilities was recognised in the 1961 Covent Garden Market Act, which established a market authority with powers to provide an efficient modern market at Covent Garden. Feasibility studies by the Market Authority demonstrated that it was not practicable to rebuild the market in situ, and other sites were examined. The outcome was agreement that the market should be re-established on a site at Nine Elms, south of the river. The Covent Garden Market Act, 1966, empowered the Market Authority to carry out the move.
As the House is aware actual construction of the new market was deferred as part of the Government's 1966 economy measures. Although this had some effect on the Authority's finances through an accumulation of interest charges on loans, it by no means brought the project to a halt. The Covent Garden Market Authority was able to go ahead with detailed planning and limited land acquisition which is the most important thing when doing anything in this enormous conurbation of London.
The designs of the new market have been considerably revised and refined during the course of this breathing space and the period was not wasted altogether. The Authority made the first major land purchase—Nine Elms Goodsyard South—during 1969, and negotiations are nearly complete on the second major acquisition—Nine Elms Goodsyard North and the Brunswick Yard. In May, 1969, my right hon. Friend announced in the House that the Authority could plan to start major construction at Nine Elms in January, 1971, and intensify its preparations accordingly. The Authority expects to meet this construction date.
There are inevitably a number of problems associated with a major development scheme in London and the Nine Elms project is no exception. The site is bisected by a main railway line which entails the construction of tunnels under the viaduct to allow traffic circulation between the two halves of the market. Other problems include the realignment of Nine Elms Lane and the

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diversion of essential services in the area, and the amount of traffic that the market will generate. The Authority is tackling these matters energetically and successfully in conjunction with other bodies concerned.
A market of this throughput is necessarily large and will necessarily cost a good deal of money. The Authority's present estimates of the project total some £30 million, of which £7 million is for purchase of land. The Government as part of the general policy for aiding horticulture are grant aiding one-third of all eligible costs under Section 10 of the Agriculture and Horticulture Act, 1964 the remaining costs being financed by loans from the National Loans Fund. The hon. Member for Maidstone mentioned what was done in other countries, as though Covent Garden got nothing.
The Authority is very conscious of the need to contain costs to a minimum in order that the rents that will need to be charged to the traders are reasonable. At all stages of the planning programme the various traders and workers committees have been fully consulted on design and other matters appertaining to the new market.
In approaching tenants last year to state their requirements for space in the fruit and vegetable market at Nine Elms, the Authority indicated the rents that they would need to charge for trading units of various sizes, based on construction costs and interest rates then current. The approximate figure for trading accommodation on this basis would have been some 38s. per square foot. Municipal rates were not included in any of the figures quoted since these could not be accurately assessed. The hon. Member for Maidstone mentioned that traders have their equipment and fittings to put into the stands, and said that a rent of 38s. at Sheffield was reasonable, so if the Covent Garden Authority can hold to this figure it should be considered reasonable.
Mr. John Wells: With respect, that is not what I said. I mentioned precisely the figure of 38s. for Covent Garden, and said that it was rather much.
Mr. Mackie: I thought the hon. Gentleman said that rents in other markets such as Sheffield were 38s., and
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that this was reasonable. But anyway there is some difficulty in quoting firm rent figures so far in advance of the completion of the market in 1973. Interest rates and increases in building costs are two most important factors which will affect rents. This is the Authority's target at the present moment.
In its January, 1969 figures the Authority assumed an 8 per cent. average interest rate, and assumed also that no profit or loss on the sale of its Covent Garden properties would be carried over to Nine Elms.
I should also say that a rent figure per square foot does not by itself give a complete picture of a market's cost to a trader. I was asked whether the Government had gone any way towards formulating the Bill recommended by the Committee charged with this. These matters are still being discussed in the bodies concerned. I cannot usefully add anything at this stage, but I hope that an agreed solution will emerge without the necessity for a Bill. The bad conditions of work in Covent Garden mean higher costs.
Regard must also be had to the facilities and services which are provided, the savings which more efficient working conditions generate, and the throughput and profit which are possible in relation to each square foot of accommodation. I am satisfied that the Authority have developed its plans for the new market in close consultation and discussion with traders and other users, whose views have been taken fully into account. More-over, the level of rents to be charged and the liability of the trade to pay them are matters which the Authority keep constantly in view, together with my Department.
The hon. Member for Maidstone said that the number of traders was getting smaller and smaller. I do not know whether this is so. He also said that everyone was looking forward to moving to Nine Elms, and I think that there will be plenty of traders to fill Nine Elms when the time comes. He mentioned various increases of costs. He said that S.E.T. penalised the traders and that they had been refused permission to pass the levy on to the retailers. The difficulty was not quite that, but rather how it should be done. Did he

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say that the Paris market operated at 2 p.m. and 9 p.m.?
Mr. John Wells: I understand so.
Mr. Mackie: Our markets open at times more like 2 a.m. and 9 a.m. How-ever, that is beside the point.
I finally wish to record that the Covent Garden Market Authority is comprised of members chosen for their extensive and relevant experience. They are devoting
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considerable attention to their task and are assisted by a highly competent staff. I have every confidence in the ability of the Authority to deal with the complex task they have of moving this great market to the general benefit of the community and the nation. I hope the deadline of 1973 will be achieved, and I have every confidence that it will.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at seven minutes to Twelve o'clock.

DEFENCE
  Recruitment
  Recruitment
  North Atlantic Treaty Organisation
  North Atlantic Treaty Organisation
  Polaris Submarines
  Polaris Submarines
  Toxins
  Toxins
  B.A.O.R. (Members' Visit)
  B.A.O.R. (Members' Visit)
  R.A.F. Helicopter Rescue Service (South-West)
  R.A.F. Helicopter Rescue Service (South-West)
  Married Quarters, Berlin
  Married Quarters, Berlin
  Forces Overseas (Visits by Members)
  Forces Overseas (Visits by Members)
  Defence Review (Overstretch)
  Defence Review (Overstretch)
  Exercise "Bersatu Padu"
  Exercise "Bersatu Padu"
  Nuclear Depth Charges (Fail-Safe Procedures)
  Nuclear Depth Charges (Fail-Safe Procedures)
  Royal Marine Barracks, Eastney
  Royal Marine Barracks, Eastney
  Army Thunderflash Mark 8
  Army Thunderflash Mark 8
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Beef Imports
  Beef Imports
  Livestock Market
  Livestock Market
TRADE
  Holiday Tour Operators
  Holiday Tour Operators
  Parliamentary Questions
  Parliamentary Questions
  Tours (Advertisements)
  Tours (Advertisements)
  Travel Agents
  Travel Agents
NATIONAL FINANCE
  German Federal Republic (United Kingdom Government Securities)
  German Federal Republic (United Kingdom Government Securities)
  British Forces, Germany (Offset Costs)
  British Forces, Germany (Offset Costs)
  Members of Parliament (Private Visits)
  Members of Parliament (Private Visits)
  National Savings
  National Savings
  Local Authority Borrowing (Public Works Loan Board)
  Local Authority Borrowing (Public Works Loan Board)
  Personal Taxation
  Personal Taxation
  Loans
  Loans
TRANSPORT
  Motorway Construction, Camberley (Damage to Property)
  Motorway Construction, Camberley (Damage to Property)
  British Waterways Board (Grants)
  British Waterways Board (Grants)
  COUNCIL OF EUROPE DELEGATION
  COUNCIL OF EUROPE DELEGATION
CIVIL SERVICE
  Government Departments (Use of Manpower)
  Government Departments (Use of Manpower)
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Handicapped Children (Cumberland)
  Handicapped Children (Cumberland)
  Earth Tremors, Bonnyrigg and Lasswade
  Earth Tremors, Bonnyrigg and Lasswade
  Primary School Classes, Southampton (Size)
  Primary School Classes, Southampton (Size)
EMPLOYMENT AND PRODUCTIVITY
  Tins (Price Increases)
  Tins (Price Increases)
  Metal Containers (Monopolies Commission's Report)
  Metal Containers (Monopolies Commission's Report)
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  United Nations (25th Anniversary)
  United Nations (25th Anniversary)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Vehicle Licences (Offences)
  Vehicle Licences (Offences)
  Appeal Cases (Legal Aid)
  Appeal Cases (Legal Aid)
  Crime Detection, Cumbria
  Crime Detection, Cumbria
HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Newham (Conversion of Appliances)
  Newham (Conversion of Appliances)
  High Rise Flats (Explosion Hazard)
  High Rise Flats (Explosion Hazard)
  Greater London Council Office Block
  Greater London Council Office Block
SCOTLAND
  Police, Lothians and Peebles
  Police, Lothians and Peebles
  Farm Accidents
  Farm Accidents
  Prisoners (Offensive Weapons)
  Prisoners (Offensive Weapons)
  Prisoners (Annual Average Cost)
  Prisoners (Annual Average Cost)
  Young Persons (Criminal Offences)
  Young Persons (Criminal Offences)
  Roads, Aberdeen
  Roads, Aberdeen
  Prisons
  Prisons
SOCIAL SERVICES
  Nurses (Meal and Lodging Charges)
  Nurses (Meal and Lodging Charges)
  Dentists
  Dentists
  Census Forms
  Census Forms
WALES
  River Towy, Carmarthen (Bailey Bridge)
  River Towy, Carmarthen (Bailey Bridge)
TECHNOLOGY
  Opencast Workings, Anker (Report)
  Opencast Workings, Anker (Report)
  Mild Steel Rods
  Mild Steel Rods

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Truro.

TOURISM REPORTS
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when an interim report from the British Tourist Authority and the National Tourist Boards can be expected.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD BROWN): My Lords, reports by the British Tourist Authority and the English, Scottish and Wales Tourist Boards on their activities in the last financial year, which ended on March 31, will be laid before the House as soon as possible in accordance with the Development of Tourism Act 1969.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord would say what he means by "as soon as possible", because while some reports can be published fairly soon after the end of the financial year others, as we all know, take months and months.
LORD BROWN: My Lords, in view of the short period to which the initial reports will relate—less than a whole year —they are not expected to be long delayed. But preparation of the reports is a matter for individual Tourist Boards and it is not possible to indicate when they will be laid before Parliament.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, bearing in mind the way the Tourism Bill was rushed through your Lordships' House last July, without the usual opportunities for full discussion, and bearing in mind, too, the very wide financial powers which these newly set up Boards have been given, does not the noble Lord think it entirely appropriate that
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Parliament should be given some report of progress at a very early date?
LORD BROWN: My Lords, bearing in mind that the noble Lord was informed on more than one occasion during the Committee and other stages of the Bill to which he refers that the purpose of hurrying the Bill through the House was to enable a large number of hotel builders to claim the grants, mentioned in the White Paper, to which they were entitled, it seems unreasonable to attach the argument which he has attached in his reference to the publication of reports by the Tourist Boards.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, with reference to what the noble Lord has just said, does he not agree with me that one of the reasons why discussion was so necessary was to try to ensure that those grants would be fairly distributed throughout the industry instead of being heavily weighted in favour of the big operators, as the noble Lord insisted?
LORD BROWN: My Lords, that was not the reason I gave; it was the reason which the noble Lord gave and which I refuted.
LORD INGLEWOOD: Rubbish!
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: My Lords, is it a question of weeks or months before we get the reports?
LORD BROWN: My Lords, we have delegated to the Authority and to the three Tourist Boards, composed of sensible businessmen derived from the industry, the responsibility of running these institutions and of reporting to Parliament. It would be quite wrong for us to begin interfering with delegated responsibility by instructing the Authority and the Boards precisely when they were to produce these reports. I have no doubt that they will be produced rapidly, as we hope that these are efficient bodies; but I cannot commit Boards when we do not have the necessary authority to commit them.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: My Lords, would the noble Lord use his kindly good offices, ever gracious and helpful, to encourage the early production of these reports because there is some complexity and questioning in the hotel industry and among potential operators?
LORD BROWN: My Lords, I have no doubt that the contents of this little discussion in the House this afternoon will be noted by the institutions concerned.

UNITED NATIONS: 25th ANNIVERSARY COMMEMORATION
2.41 p.m.
LORD SHERFIELD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order P
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can now inform the House of the proposals of the National Coordinating Committee for the commemoration in the United Kingdom of the 25th Anniversary of the United Nations.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD CHALFONT): My Lords, on June 26 Her Majesty the Queen and other members of the Royal Family will attend a commemoration ceremony in Westminster Hall. In addition, an ecumenical service is planned to be held in Westminster Abbey on October 18. On November 24, there will be a ceremony (predominantly involving youth) in Church House, where the United Nations Preparatory Commission held its second meeting. The main object of the Committee, which is headed by Sir Harold Beeley, is to stimulate an active interest in the United Nations, especially among young people. This will involve interested groups throughout the country and, for example, special approaches to all local authorities and schools.
LORD SHERFIELD: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for that reply, and for his reference to young people. I wonder whether he could give the House some further information as to how this Committee is setting about the stimulation of public interest in this programme and in this anniversary, with special reference to the younger generation for many of whom the early days of
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the United Nations are not even a memory?
LORD CHALFONT: Yes, my Lords. The National Committee, which as I have said is headed by Sir Harold Beeley, has various sub-committees: a publicity sub-committee, an educational sub-committee and a ceremonial sub-committee, and they are in contact with various bodies throughout the country. Regional committees have also been set up for Wales and Scotland, with financial help from the National Committee. These committees are approaching all the local authorities and interested organisations. They are holding photographic exhibitions of the work of the United Nations. With special reference to the noble Lord's question about young people, a brochure is being prepared for distribution to all schools. One of the commemorative events, the Church House ceremony, is especially for young people, and the Committee have also set aside some money to help in the World Youth Assembly which is being held in New York as part of the 25th anniversary commemoration.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he does not think that, in view of the great importance of the United Nations to all Governments and all political Parties, it would be appropriate if there could be not only a debate in this House, which I hope will take place at some time in the future, but also in an-other place?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I believe it has been agreed that your Lord-ships will hold an Adjournment debate on—
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKXETON): Not an Adjournment debate.
LORD CHALFONT: A debate, my Lords—I had better be very careful. I believe it has been agreed that your Lordships should have a debate on the United Nations, and I think it has been arranged, through the usual channels, for June 10. I cannot, of course, comment on the arrangements of the other place.

RABIES INQUIRY
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when the Waterhouse Committee on Rabies will report.]
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the Committee of Inquiry held their first meeting yesterday. The Committee are aware of the urgency of their inquiry, but I cannot at this stage say when they will be able to report.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I quite understand what the noble Lord means by that, but I wonder whether it would be possible for the Committee to bring out an Interim Report, which would alleviate certain anxieties among people who keep kennels and to whom this matter is so important.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I under-stand the point of view of the noble Lord. But he will also appreciate that, until the Committee have seen the ground they have to cover, it will be impossible for them to come to a conclusion as to whether or not an Interim Report would be possible.

PALACE OF WESTMINSTER: FIRE PREVENTION
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether a report on the Palace of Westminster has ever been made by a fire prevention officer, and if so, when.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DE-FENCE, R.A.F. (LORD WINTERBOTTOM): My Lords, annual fire inspections are carried out, and reports made, by fire officers of the Ministry of Public Building and Works. Their last report was produced in November of last year. In addition, inspections are made from time to time by the London Fire Brigade and Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Factories.
LORD CHORLEY: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, which up to a point is reassuring. But can he tell me whether the congestion caused by the parking of the very considerable number of private cars, as well as delivery vans, in the narrow courts and around the kitchens has even been looked at from the point of view of fire-fighting? And does not the noble Lord agree that at certain times of the day the congestion is so bad there that it would be quite impossible to get a fire-fighting appliance into several of those courts, let alone operate it for the purpose of quelling flames and, possibly, having to rescue members of the staff who were trapped?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I think the noble Lord has made a valid point. I will see that my right honourable friend the Minister of Public Building and Works is asked to look into it.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether I heard him aright when I thought he said that the annual inspection took place in November of each year? And is this associated in any way with the fact that a very effective force of fire-prevention officers toured the vaults of this Palace on November 5, 1605?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, the report was published in November; the precautions were taken earlier.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, can my noble friend tell us whether the fire-prevention officers have given any attention to the possibility of what would happen if there were a fire at the time of the State Opening of Parliament, with the crowded condition of this Chamber?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, that point, too, I will bring to the notice of my right honourable friend.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, can my noble friend say under what powers the factory inspector makes his inspection every year?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I cannot say, but I am certain that he is empowered to do so.
LORD STONHAM: My Lords, can my noble friend say, then, whether it is an

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inspection with regard to "a place of work"?
LORD WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I presume that that is the case; but if not I will inform my noble friend.
LORD CHORLEY: Is this not a legislative factory, my Lords?

BUSINESS
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, with leave, I should like to say something about the way in which we hope to take to-day's business. If the Committee stage of the Merchant Shipping Bill is not completed by about 7 o'clock this evening, I think it would be of convenience to the House generally, and to the principal participants in the debate individually, if we adjourned the Committee to take the Television Order. Once that was over we would then resume the Committee stage of the Merchant Shipping Bill. I hope that we shall be able to complete the Committee stage of the Bill to-night; but, if not, I suggest that it might be possible to complete it to-morrow, after the Second Reading of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Bill.

MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL
2.49 p.m.
LORD BROWN: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve it-self into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Brown.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF LISTOWEL in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 to 6 agreed to.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: My Lords, before I call Amendment No. 1, I would point out to the Committee that if Amendment No. 1 is agreed to I cannot call Amendment No. 2.
Clause 7 [Payment of Seamen's Wages]:
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 1:
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Page 4, line 39, leave out from beginning to ("exceeds") in page 5, line 4 and insert ("If the amount payable to a seaman under sub-section (1) of this section")
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 1. Before speaking to it, if the Committee would bear with me for a moment I think it might save time if at the outset I said very briefly a word which will apply to virtually all my Amendments and to all that we from this side of the Committee are seeking to do on this Bill. We are seeking to make this Bill reflect as accurately as possible the recommendations of the Court of Inquiry chaired by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Pearson. Incidentally, if the noble and learned Lord has no objection, I might suggest that for the purposes of this debate we should refer to that Report as "Pearson".
I recognise that it is not, of course, the role of Parliament to ratify and to rubber stamp everything that every Royal Com-mission or committee or court of inquiry proposes for conversion into legislation. Some reports are biased, some are incomplete, some are out of date. In some cases the terms of reference might be thought to be wrong, but I submit that in this case matters are entirely otherwise. The Report which we are acting on to-day comes from a Court of Inquiry as balanced as it is eminent, and as impartial as it is experienced. First, as its Chairman we have the noble and learned Lord, Lord Pearson; then we have Mr. Hugh Clegg, a distinguished and much respected academic worker in the field of industrial relations. We have Mr. A. J. S. Brown, the vice-chairman of the C.B.I., subsequently succeeded by Mr. Garner, and then we have Mr. J. O'Hagan, as Chairman of the Council of the T.U.C.
Not only is that the character of the Court—character of that quality—but its terms of reference, which have been generally agreed to be both apt and comprehensive, specifically required that Court of Inquiry to make recommendations for the amendment of the law. And this is what they have done, among many other things. So these recommendations which have been generally accepted as a package by all the parties in the industry and this Bill, which emerges from consultations that have been going on for the past eight years, are the

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reasons why we on this side of the Committee propose to give great weight to the recommendations of Pearson, and to probe closely the reasons for each and every departure from them. We shall want to be persuaded by extremely cogent arguments from the Minister before accepting any major departure.
With those preliminaries, I would now turn to Amendment No. 1, and to suggest that it might be discussed in con-junction with Amendment No. 3, for which, as it were, it is a paving Amendment, and to mention that both these Amendments are paving Amendments for Amendment No. 10. The matter we are dealing with here is the question of the payment to a seaman of the amount due to him on discharge from his ship and the presentation to him of an account of what is due to him. These are matters that were dealt with very thoroughly by Pearson, and are covered by paragraphs 364 and 365, which I shall paraphrase briefly.
These paragraphs recognise that in a number of cases there are two problems that have to be tackled when a seaman comes to be paid the full amount due to him on discharge. One is that it is not always possible in every ship to produce an up-to-date and accurate account at the moment of discharge. This is not hard to understand when it is recognised that this is a job which falls to the master in many of the smaller ships; and it falls to him at a moment when his primary duty is to navigate his ship into his home port, which, if it is a port in the United Kingdom, involves navigating it through some of the most congested seaways in the world and bringing it into port in weather which is not always ideal. In those circumstances, I am sure that all members of the Committee will agree that his prior duty lies in the safety of his ship and his crew, and with his navigation. In those circumstances it is not practicable to pro-duce absolutely accurate, up-to-date accounts in time for the discharge of the crew.
Secondly, it is not always convenient or possible to carry enough cash in the ship to pay every member of the crew the whole amount that is due to him. It was those circumstances which the Pear-son Committee sought to deal with. The
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solution they came to is set out in paragraph 363, which I will now quote precisely from the Report:
"The obligations in respect of the delivery to the seaman of the account of his wages should have a statutory basis in the sense that the Act would indicate that such an account is to be given to him. But the details of the obligations (as to time and as to the degree of accuracy required and as to adjustments and notification) should be contained in a clause in the articles of agreement."
It goes on to say that the clause or clauses should be negotiated on the Maritime Board, approved by the Board of Trade and dealt with in Regulations.
It is arising from those recommendations that this Amendment emerges. It is a matter which has been discussed in the Commons, though most of the discussion there was concerned with an alteration of the amount mentioned at the top of page 5 of the Bill. At the moment, the amount in line 4 on page 5 is £50, and the Pearson Committee recommended that it should be £20 in the case of those seamen who were due for an amount of wages in excess of that figure but whose wages could not be determined precisely and accurately at the point of discharge.
I ought to say that we fully recognise that the correct and normal, and right and proper procedure is set out in Clause 7(1); namely, that every seaman at discharge should get the full amount due to him and should receive an accurate account then and there. But for the reasons which I have already set out this will not always be the case, and we would suggest that if the amount pay-able to a seaman under Clause 7(1) exceeds £50 he should be paid £50; if it is less he should be paid whatever that sum is and that the account should follow if it has not been possible to produce it then and there within the week. We feel that this conforms far more closely to what the Pearson Committee recommended than what is now in the Bill. I beg to move.
LORD BROWN: There will be many occasions during this debate when reference will be made to the Pearson Report, and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, as to the immense contribution which that Report has made. But the noble Lord realises as well as I do that

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it is the duty of the Government to legislate, and it would be no excuse for failings in their legislation for them to say that it was not their fault but the fault of the Committee that recommended these things. So one must take Reports such as the Pearson Report in their context. Moreover, it is not unknown for both sides of Parliament to use a Report to back their legislation or their Amendments when it suits them and to ignore it when it does not. So one must bear these points in mind. The noble Lord sought to throw the cloak of Pear-son over all these Amendments, and I am afraid that that is not a cogent argument for me to accept them.
Really I am commenting on Amendments 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 10 and 13, all of which seek to achieve the same end. We have a difference of opinion about certain matters in this Bill, and those differences are related to the convenience and efficiency of paying wages. As I under-stand it, the basic argument behind the Amendments is that with modern methods of accounting it would be highly con-venient and efficient for a shipowner to delay payment of wages for seven days after men had been discharged and give the men a sum of money which would keep them going. He would then be able to use his accounting machinery, and that would relieve the captain and his officers from making arduous calculations. That is a perfectly fair argument and in other circumstances, if one did not have to take account of contrary arguments, one would accept it.
Amendment No. 1 removes the need for an account of wages 24 hours before discharge. Amendment No. 3 removes reference to the payment of a quarter of the wages on discharge and relies on a figure of £50, which unfortunately might rapidly become out of date. Amendment No. 4 removes the penalty for non-payment of wages of payment of wages for up to 56 days, and relies on a penalty of 20 per cent. interest. Amendment No. 6 removes the penalty even if the £50 is not paid at the time of discharge; that is to say, a shipowner can be late in payment of any wages—the seaman goes without wages altogether for seven days and there is no penalty for it.
By Amendment No. 7 the penalty is not to apply when the seaman is em-
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ployed or able to obtain employment; that is to say, if he has not been paid his proper wages but is able to get some other employment, but refuses it, the shipowner suffers no penalty for delaying his wages. Amendment No. 10 removes the need for any account of wages to be given to the seaman 24 hours before or at the time of his discharge. This seems to me to be very poor treatment. Amendment No. 13 removes the reference to estimates; it is a consequential Amendment. In one context, those changes are completely reasonable; they tend to efficiency and will help the officers of the ships and save them some labour. But they will impinge on the normal rights of people at work. They will leave them in a position where payment may be delayed for a very long period. They will make the attitude of employers slack. On those grounds I cannot recommend your Lordships to accept any of these Amendments.
LORD SANDFORD: We both seem to be throwing cloaks over each other, the Minister throwing one cloak over seven Amendments, when I have moved only one and suggested that we discuss two. If I may, I will refute his argument on Nos. 4, 5, 6 and 7 when I have moved them, and in the meantime concentrate on No. 1 and perhaps bring in No. 3. The purpose of these Amendments is certainly not the convenience of the masters. There is no word in the clause, when amended, to that effect. The only words are:
"and it is not practicable to pay the whole of it at the time of discharge".
I explained in moving the Amendment why it is not practicable, and the only reason why it is not practicable and the only defence that could be raised by the master under this clause would be that he had to attend to the navigation for the safety of his ship and crew. I should have thought that this was the only factor which concerned Pearson, and that it was a very cogent factor. Without an Amendment of this kind, the master will be left in the position of having to choose between getting his ship in safely and fiddling about with a lot of accounts.
Perhaps I ought to have brought for your Lordships to see the document with which the master has to contend when drawing up these accounts. Anybody who has had to cope with P.A.Y.E., to say nothing of all the other deductions

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and additions which at the moment have to be taken into account, will know what an intolerable burden it is on the master navigating his ship to have to choose between getting those two things right. I would not accept that the purpose of the Amendment is the convenience of the master. I do not think I want to labour the point. It is not all that important. I had hoped for a much more cogent explanation of why the noble Lord at this point wanted to depart so far from the clear recommendation of Pearson on this point. But this is not a matter we should want to press as much as some others later on. Therefore I beg leave to withdraw Amendment No. 1.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 5, line 2, leave out ("his").
The noble Lord said: This is a purely drafting Amendment. Subsection (1) of Clause 7 states that the time when the seaman leaves the ship on being discharged therefrom is referred to in this and the next following clause as "the time of discharge". However, in sub-section (2) this time is incorrectly referred to as "the time of his discharge". This Amendment corrects the drafting by omitting the word " his". I beg to move.
LORD SANDFORD: I accept from the noble Lord that this is indeed just a drafting Amendment, but I should be grateful if he could give us an assurance that by leaving out this word we are not referring all the calculations that apply to a particular member of the crew back to some single moment which could be fixed as the moment of discharge of the whole crew. This, I think, would not be fair to individual members. The whole business of the lapse of a week and running on of wages, if this is agreed, ought to apply to the discharge of the individual member of the crew about whom we are thinking and I should want to know that this point is not lost by cutting out the word "his".
LORD BROWN: I can inform the noble Lord that I am assured that this Amendment has no substantive effect. I not really answering his question, because I have not alerted myself to the deeper
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implications. I will look at the other point subsequently.
LORD SANDFORD: If we may have an assurance before the Bill leaves us, I am happy to accept this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 4:
Page 5, line 8, leave out subsection (3) and insert:
("(3) If any amount which, under the preceding provisions of this section, is pay-able to a seaman is not paid at the time at which it is so payable, it shall carry interest at the rate of 20 per cent. per annum.").
The noble Lord said: This Amendment again is dealing with the question of payment of wages due to a seaman on discharge, but once again at this point the Bill departs radically from the proposals of Pearson, in that it continues what we believe to be an archaic system where-by if the full amount due to a seaman is not paid at his discharge one of the two penalties that fall upon the owner is that his wages run on. There was a time when they ran on indefinitely. The proposal now is that they should run on for 56 days. This was a matter which was carefully considered by Pearson and rejected.
May I refer to the actual terms of the recommendation, which is No. 7(c)? Following a full discussion of this matter, reported in paragraphs 372 to 377 and paragraph 389, the conclusion Pearson comes to is that
"there should be a penalty for delay in payment of wages, and for this purpose a high rate of interest would be sufficient."
That is quite clear and emphatic. In another place Amendments were moved and there was a further discussion about the matter, but the proposal that I am now making was lost on a Division. What we should like to hear from the Minister now are his precise reasons for once again departing from a clear recommendation on this subject by the Pearson Court of Inquiry. I beg to move.
LORD BROWN: If it is not out of order, my Lord Chairman, may I give the assurance for which the noble Lord asked on the previous Amendment? I have a note from the Box that the assurance asked for can be given. The term "discharge" relates to the individual

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seaman and not to the crew in general. I hope that that is not out of order.
LORD SANDFORD: It is out of order, but I am glad to accept the assurance.
LORD BROWN: The Amendment the noble Lord is now moving seeks to re-move the provision in Clause 7 that where amounts due to be paid are not so paid, wages will run on for periods up to 56 days and to substitute a simple provision for 20 per cent. interest. I am sure that there should be a severe penalty if wages are not paid when they are due. The suggestion for 56 days is a limitation on what has gone before. At present, wages run on indefinitely. I agree that Pearson preferred to provide for a high rate of interest instead of wages running on. This appears from paragraph 377 of the Report. But in paragraph 376 the Report suggests that if the principle of wages running on is retained there should be a maximum period of two months. We felt that a 20 per cent. rate of interest during this period would not provide a sufficient deterrent against dilatory payment during which time the seaman's hardship would be severe. These are the reasons why I think that a more severe penalty than that primarily recommended by the Pearson Report is necessary.
One should take account of the claim by officers' and seamens' associations that this severe deterrent is required for a small minority of shipowners who, it is claimed, would be unmoved by the prospect of interest even at 20 per cent. but are now brought to heel in negotiation by the provisions about wages running on. It was on the balance of judgment that we felt that the retention of the running on penalty was justified. I am sorry again not to agree with the noble Lord, but I think that to some of the less reputable small shipowners 20 per cent. is not a sufficient deterrent. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD SANDFORD: Once again I think it is a pity that the most creditable attempt by the Court of Inquiry to bring this particular feature of the Merchant Navy, the payment of wages, into the 'seventies, and to secure that things are done in a rather more sensible and efficient way, has not won the day. I
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think that this particular device is not so good as the simple and straightforward one recommended by Lord Pearson, and I should have thought that a 20 per cent. interest penalty was quite adequate, coupled with the other safe-guards that will still remain for seamen. If we are to have wages running on like this, then I shall certainly need to move the succeeding Amendments, because I think that to have wages running on without the further safeguards which I shall seek to insert would certainly be quite unfair to the shipowners concerned. But, having said that, I beg leave—
LORD HAWKE: Before my noble friend withdraws his Amendment, can the Minister give us a little more information? I do not think many noble Lords are likely to know how many cases occur of wages running on. Is it a common or a rare occurrence? We really have not been given much information. This is an extraordinary provision, is it not?
LORD BROWN: I have not the details of the number of cases. But it is not the number of cases where running on occurs that may be important; it is the fact that the penalty exists. Often a penalty prevents the offence, and there-fore in this case, while there may be only a small number of cases in which the penalty is exacted for running on, nevertheless, the withdrawal of the penalty might allow a large number of cases to eventuate. I do not think that the number of cases, which I believe to be small, where running on takes place is a criterion of the effectiveness of the penalty itself.
LORD HAWKE: So far as I am aware, this provision does not obtain in any other walk of life. Why is it necessary in the case of the Merchant Navy? There must be some reason why ship-owners are apparently reluctant to pay their men. There must be some reason for this most extraordinary provision. I suppose it is a relic from the dim ages.
LORD BROWN: It is a provision that exists now in a more extreme form, in that wages run on without any limitation to 56 days. This provision has been in existence for a long time. I take it that the Committee realise, as no doubt the noble Lord on the Front

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Bench will claim, that the conditions in the shipping industry are quite different from those of other industries. Ships arrive, possibly after long voyages at sea; seamen wish to return to their families; they wish to meet commitments which may have arisen in their homes during their absence. They may, indeed, land at ports other than their home port and have to travel long distances to their homes; and they wish to get the money which is their due at the proper time, which is on discharge. The fact that calculations have to be estimates, in some cases as made by ships' officers and crew, is acknowledged in this Bill; but there should be penalties for delay beyond seven days. This Bill produces those penalties.
I have already informed your Lord-ships that it is the opinion of those employed in the industry that there is a quite small number of shipowners to whom the 20 per cent. penalty is not a sufficient deterrent. One cannot leave seamen exposed to the business of arriving after voyages and having to go with-out wages which are properly due to them, simply because the penalties are not sufficient to catch the miscreants. This provision will not bother the efficient and large shipping companies. The other point that I have not so far made but should make, is that there is a tendency to talk about wages and wage packets having to be made up by the master of the ship. I would point out that comments of this sort are not always accurate. Ships have officers as well as masters, and it is not always the master who has to make up the wages; officers can do that for him, the master, and in a well-regulated organisation I should have thought that much of this work could be delegated.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: The impression I get from the noble Lord who has just spoken is that the seaman's wages have to be paid on his discharge, and that these wages accrue over a long period of time. A further impression is that the money the man has earned over this long period of time falls due at one period. But is it not a fact that what really happens is that, on the instructions of the seaman, advances are made to his family during the whole course of the time that he is on the voyage?
LORD BROWN: The seaman has the option of making allotments to his family of part of his wages. I do not know to what extent this is customary, but I have no doubt that it is fairly customary. The fact is that wages due to him have accrued during the voyage, and he expects—and in a great majority of cases gets—his wages when he is discharged, with an account of how they are made up; and this is right and proper. If he does not get the whole of the wages due, the Bill lays down that he shall get £50 of them, or a quarter, whichever is the greater; and that, too, is right and proper. The Bill then lays down that within seven days he has to be paid the balance, and that if he is not paid the balance within those seven days then severe penalties arise. The seaman's wages run on for a maximum period of two months, and at the end of that period, if there is still a balance unpaid, the employer will have to pay a fine, so to speak, of 20 par cent. on these wages.
This all seems to me to be highly reasonable. It is admittedly a very severe penalty, but, of course, the way to avoid a penalty is not to commit the default. There does not seem to be any good reason why shipowners should not be able to pay £50, or a quarter of what is due, immediately, and the balance within seven days. If they cannot do that, then I think severe penalties should be levied in order to protect the position of the seaman. For these reasons I do not think this Amendment, which eliminates the penalty of these wages running on for fifty-six days, should be accepted by your Lordships' Committee.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: I should just like to say that the noble Lord put the matter correctly, in my estimation, when he used the word "balance".
LORD SANDFORD: I still remain firmly of the opinion that we are necessarily retaining an archaic and inconvenient arrangement. I think the 20 per cent. penalty would be quite sufficient to do what is necessary, and we have Pearson's recommendation to that effect. But because that penalty would be sufficient, and I think will be sufficient, it does not require us to spend very much longer on this point. In my view, it is a pity that we have not gone for the simpler

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and sufficiently effective system, but I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.23 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 5, line 8, after ("amount") insert (" exceeding £ 5 ").
The noble Lord said: If we are to have the running on of wages, then I believe that my Amendments Nos. 5, 6 and 7, which I should like to move separately, will be required to make sure that it does not operate unjustly. The first Amendment, No. 5, is designed to secure that if wages are to run on they should not do so if the amount overdue and unpaid is trivial, say under £ 5. This is a point which Pearson specifically identified as liable to produce an absurdity. I think it would be simplest and briefest if I quoted directly from paragraph 374, which says:
"On the other hand this provision as it stands can produce an absurdity. Suppose that the master in the account of the seaman's wages which he has compiled and delivered to the seaman, has made an error, so that the sum shown as due is £ 1 less than it ought to be. That is a default of the master. The owners pay the deficient sum shown in the account. That is a default of the owners." Any amount overdue invokes the whole of this penalty, which is the full amount of wages due to a man running on after discharge, and which in this kind of case is out of all proportion to the mistake which has invoked it.
This is not a matter which, so far as I am aware, was raised in another place, but it is a matter which was raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Pearson, at the Second Reading. If I understood him aright, I should like to invoke his support for this Amendment.
LORD HAWKE: Some of these things become more and more strange as one looks into this strange world. If one reads the Bill as I read it, if the master has made a mistake in the accounts and still owes a seaman a sum of money and the seaman proves that that sum of money is owing to him, while the matter is in dispute and he has not been paid the balance, he is apparently on full pay. As I read the Bill that is what would happen. Perhaps the noble Lord will disprove my reading of the Bill.
LORD BROWN: During the Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, raised the point because he was not satisfied that a shipowner could not be penalised for a simple mistake. I propose to move an Amendment later, Amendment No. 8, which puts the matter beyond any doubt by including the word "mistake". I am informed that the Bill is fairly fool-proof, because it makes reference in such a way that if the matter were a mistake then the penalty would not arise.
I appreciate that the object of this Amendment is to avoid invoking the heavy penalty of full wages running on where the underpayment is £ 5 or less. If one knows—this is the point one comes to; it is a sort of tautological point— that one is underpaying by less than £ 5, which one would have to know in order to keep within the ambit of the penalty, then one would pay it. That is one point. It is a remedy. A further point is that the Bill in its present form (confirmed by the reference to "mistake" in subsection (4) which I propose to move) will cover the eventuality of miscalculation or accident by its provision for payment in accordance with the account under sub-section (2).
The effect of what I have said is that the Amendment is not necessary; the shipowner is not going to be caught be-cause the amount is trivial. I really do assure the noble Lord that it is unnecessary. If the sum of £ 5 is introduced, you are doing something which is legally rather difficult, because it implies a precision, an ability to know whether the amount is trivial—that is to say, under £ 5—which is quite foreign to a situation where the reason for the Amendment is that you are not certain where you stand. This introduces a slight legal complication which would be very difficult to interpret. It is on those grounds, and on my assurance that mistakes and the like for trivial amounts will not land the ship-owner in penalties (and I give that assurance) that I hope that the noble Lord will see fit to withdraw his Amendment, taking into account that there are some legal niceties about stating an amount, a limit over which you must not go if you are not to incur penalties, when the whole essence of the situation you are dealing with is that you do not know what you owe.
LORD SANDFORD: I should like to look at this point again. I think the argument that the noble Lord was using in his defence applies more to the Amendments which we both have down as No. 8 and No. 9. Those Amendments deal with the question of the triviality of the error, and the nature of the default or the wrongful act which has caused some underpayment. My Amendment deals with the situation where the amount by which the seaman is paid short is less than £ 5, for whatever reason, and the underpayment arises. This is a different point. I think the complexity of the problem arises almost entirely from the determination of the Government to continue this archaic and absurd arrangement of wages running on, and not to rely on this much more sensible penalty. Having said that, I should like to move on to Amendments Nos. 6 and 7, which intro-duce safeguards of a different kind, and for the time being withdraw my Amendment No. 5.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.30 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 6:
Page 5, line 9, leave out ("at the time at which it is so payable" and insert ("within seven days of his discharge").
The noble Lord said: This is another safeguard which we believe will be necessary if the Government insist on wages running on in this way. This particular safeguard is designed to restrict the application of these penalties, but in a different way. The comment that Pearson had to make which applies to this point is contained in paragraph 365 where, after an explanation of the sort of measures which should be taken to deal with the case with which we are concerned— namely, what happens when a man can-not be paid the full amount and given an account at the point of discharge—he said:
"This also would be a matter to be covered by a clause in the articles of agreement, or by Regulations."
But here we have the Government trying to cover this point in the Bill itself, and I think this will lead to trouble. So far as I can make out, it is not a matter which was discussed at all in another place.
The Amendment is designed to defer the application of the penalties upon
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employers for non-payment of wages, for seven days after discharge; that is to say, it would introduce a period of grace of a week during which wages would not run on. When it has not been possible to pay a seaman in full and to draw up a full and accurate account to be presented to him on discharge, the papers will be sent, for instance, by the master to the head-quarters of his company and processed through some accounting machinery and produced for the seaman within a week.
I understand that this is something which the shipowners are satisfied that they can do, and that the outcome of it will be satisfactory. It would be grossly unfair for the penalties to operate during that particular period. But, on the other hand, if after that period of one week the seaman is still underpaid, then the penalties should operate, and should operate from the original date of discharge. My Amendment is designed to secure that piece of equity. I beg to move.
LORD BROWN: With respect to the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, I believe that this may be an Amendment the full implications of which have not been appreciated. If we were to accept Amendment No. 6, it would remove penalty from the shipowner, even if he failed to pay the seaman anything at all on discharge and delayed any payment for seven days. That is the effect of the Amendment. I do not believe that the noble Lord wants to move an Amendment having that effect, because it would be open to the shipowner to delay the payment of any wages at all on discharge for seven days, without penalty. We are always legislating for the evildoers and there are no doubt some small shipowners who would take advantage of this provision, and nothing at all would happen to them. I put it to the noble Lord that he does not want to bring about that effect.
LORD SANDFORD: No, I certainly do not want to bring that about. But I should be grateful if the Minister would elaborate a little more on how it is that my Amendment has that effect. I shall certainly withdraw it if he does.
LORD BROWN: I am in difficulty, be-cause I am relying on my note, which says, quite definitely, that that is the effect

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of the Amendment. I shall have to re-read the clause in the Bill and construe it.
LORD SANDFORD: Will it save the time of the Committee if the noble Lord accepts this Amendment, and explains more fully at the next stage of the Bill what he has just said? If he satisfies me that the effect of my Amendment is as he has explained, I shall of course withdraw it. If he will explain to me in the meantime why it has that effect I will give him that assurance, and if possible table something else before we get to the Report stage which secures what I want.
LORD BROWN: The noble Lord, as an ex-naval man, has a commendably original approach to matters, but I have never before heard the suggestion that the Government should accept an Amendment until it is explained at a later stage why they should reject it. I would rather follow the normal form, and if the noble Lord will withdraw his Amendment I will see that a proper construing of the clause is given to him, so that he under-stands precisely why it will have that effect.
LORD SANDFORD: Maybe what I was suggesting was slightly irregular, but I think that what the Minister is now suggesting is just as irregular, if not more so. If I am to withdraw this Amendment, the Committee must have an explanation of the very brief point which the noble Lord made just now.
LORD BROWN: Let me read my note. I will tell your Lordships my difficulty in this matter. Amendments Nos. 1 and 6 are very closely interlinked, as the noble Lord recognises, and I have one note on both of them. I will read it to your Lordships:
"Clauses 7 and 8 are designed to provide that wages shall be paid in full in accordance with an account of wages delivered to the seaman 24 hours beforehand. If it is not practicable to pay this amount in full at the time, not less than £ 50 or one-quarter of the amount shown to be due in that account shall be paid and the remainder within seven days. The penalties in subsection (3) cover non-payment of any of these requirements. The Amendment would remove the connection with the account of wages (which I assume would not now be required) and there would be no penalty if no wages were paid for seven days. I appreciate the desire to simplify these arrangements but I do not think that this should be done at the expense of the seaman."
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That is a mere statement of the fact that the Amendment is so interpreted, but I confess that I have not gone into the underlying reasons why it has that effect. I have accepted the advice of experts that it would have that effect. But I will get the noble Lord a precise explanation of why it has that effect, if he will now withdraw his Amendment. If it does not have that effect, we shall have to reconsider his Amendment at a later stage of the Bill.
LORD HAWKE: I read the Amendment as the noble Lord, Lord Brown, has read it on his second thoughts. But all this argument would be saved if only the noble Lord would bring the Bill up to date and abolish this anachronism about keeping seamen on full pay just because they are owed some money. That dates from Victorian or pre-Victorian times. There is a National Union of Sea-men nowadays, and goodness knows what else! and that kind of penalty is completely out of date. If necessary, put some sort of fine on the employer if he deliberately avoids payment. But to enable a man who through some error has not been paid to go on being in employment which he is not serving, is a complete anachronism, and the noble Lord's Party, who pride themselves on revising and bringing everything up to date, ought to accept that point.
LORD BROWN: Perhaps I ought to inform the Committee that some Members opposite want to rely on a 20 per cent. fine on wages, but your Lordships ought to know, if you have not done the calculation, that a 20 per cent. fine amounts to 7s. 6d. per week per £ 100, and to somebody who wants to avoid paying due wages on the due date it is not too heavy a premium to pay. If you are very short of cash and are getting near the bankruptcy level, you will happily pay that sum to hang on for a longer period to some of the money that should go to your seamen. I think that 20 per cent. is not a sufficient penalty, and that is why we have insisted on running on.
LORD HAWKE: If you are short of cash and going into bankruptcy, where are you going to get the money to pay wages to people who are no longer working for you?
LORD BROWN: Then you will be pushed into the bankruptcy court, and the seamen will have a claim at law against your assets.
LORD SANDFORD: I think the Committee will agree that, however that may be, there is the matter of my Amendment No. 6 to be dealt with. I feel that the Committee, never mind about myself, has not had a proper explanation from the Minister as to why my Amendment has the effect that he says it has. If he can say that between now and the next stage

CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

Daventry, V.

Milverton, L.

Aberdeen and Temair, M.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Molson, L.

Ailwyn, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Albemarle, E.

Dundee, E.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Allerton, L.

Elliot of Harwood, Bs.

Oakshott, L.

Ashbourne, L.

Emmet of Amberley, Bs.

Poltimore, L.

Auckland, L.

Falkland, V.

Rankeillour, L,

Barnby, L.

Ferrier, L.

Rathcavan, L.

Beauchamp, E.

Fisher, L.

Runciman of Doxford, V.

Berkeley, Bs.

Fortescue, E.

St. Oswald, L.

Bourne, L.

Goschen, V. [Teller]

Salter, L.

Brooke of Cumnor, L.

Grenfell, L.

Sandford, L.

Brooke of Ystradfellte, Bs.

Gridley, L.

Sempill, Ly.

Burton, L.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Shannon, E.

Carrington, L.

Hawke, L.

Strange of Knokin, Bs.

Clwyd, L.

Inglewood, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Conesford, L.

Jellicoe, E.

Stratheden and Campbell, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Lauderdale, E.

Thurlow, L.

Craigavon, V.

Liverpool, E.

Vivian, L.

Cromartie, E.

Mancroft, L.

Wakefield of Kendal, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Archibald, L.

Headfort, M.

Roberthall, L.

Ardwick, L.

Henderson, L.

Royle, L.

Arwyn, L.

Hilton of Upton, L. [Teller.]

Rusholme, L.

Beswick, L.

Hirshfield, L.

Sainsbury, L.

Blyton, L.

Hughes, L.

Segal, L.

Bowles, L. [Teller.]

Huntingdon, E.

Serota, Bs.

Brockway, L.

Leatherland, L.

Shackleton, L. (L. Privy Seal.)

Brown, L.

Lindgren, L.

Sorensen, L.

Buckinghamshire, E.

McLeavy, L.

Stonham, L.

Burden, L.

MacLeod of Fuinary, L.

Summerskill, Bs.

Champions, L.

Maelor, L.

Taylor, L.

Crook, L.

Milford, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Fiske, L.

Morrison, L.

Walston, L.

Foot, L.

Moyle, L.

Wilson of Langside, L.

Fulton, L.

Phillips, Bs.

Wise, L.

Gardiner, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Raglan, L.

Wootton of Abinger, Bs.

Garnsworthy, L.

Ritchie-Calder, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
3.50 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 5, line 16, at end insert—
("Provided that the entitlement under this subsection to wages shall not apply in respect of any period during which the seaman was employed or was able to obtain suitable em-
of this Bill he can show me personally why the Amendment would have the effect he says it has, and why it would not operate in the way I claim it would operate, I will certainly withdraw it. But in the circumstances I feel obliged, on behalf of the Committee, to press the Amendment.
3.45 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 6) shall be agreed to?
Then Lordships divided: Contents, 60; Non-Contents, 51.
ployment but unreasonably refused or failed to take up such employment.")
The noble Lord said: This is the last in the series of three Amendments which I feel are required if the Government insist that this archaic provision for wages running on, albeit for only two months, is still to continue. This is a restriction of a kind different from the two that we have considered so far. The only point

167
in the Pearson Report which is relevant is the general one that this whole idea of wages running on is archaic and ought to be abolished. There was some refer-ence to this matter in the Commons; but if what is now proposed is accepted —if wages are to run on—the chief argument for it is the one which the Minister has used; that it is necessary in order to avoid hardship to a seaman arising through negligence by the owner in the case of his previous employment. But we ought not to carry it to the extent (as we shall without this Amendment) of providing a seaman with two lots of wages for one period of employment. It is for that reason that I have tabled this Amendment. I beg to move.
LORD BROWN: The noble Lord kept on referring to the running on of wages as archaic. Maybe the running on without limit might be so described; but the new provision for running on for 56 days is not yet in force. That can hardly be described as archaic: it is something quite new. I do not see why the fact that a seaman is employed during this period or is offered employment, whether he takes it or not, should relieve his previous employer of the obligation of paying the penalty for not paying the previous wages when they were due. The subsequent employment, or the seaman's attitude to further employment, has surely nothing to do with this matter. There is a normal legal obligation on an employer to pay at the end of the con-tract of employment. In the case of seamen there is some delay on this; but there is a legal entitlement. Why should a seaman be deprived, without penalty on the employer, of his legal entitlement because he was offered other employment which he chose to refuse? We cannot accept this Amendment. It is completely illogical. On those grounds I reject it.
LORD SANDFORD: I do not think that that argument takes the Committee very much further. The legal entitlement of the seaman is precisely the matter on which we are now legislating. We want to make sure that that entitlement is fair as between the shipowner and the seaman. To continue this procedure of wages running on without any of the restrictions which I have sought to apply loads the balance of justice, in my view, too far in favour of the seaman.
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I will not press this matter now, al-though I reserve the right to return to it at Report stage because I am satisfied, as I am sure are most members of the Committee, that in this modern age the vast majority of shipowners will do all they practically can to ensure that their seamen are not only paid promptly on discharge but rendered a full account of their wages. Therefore the matter of what penalty should apply is not of very great moment, although I am sorry that the Government are losing the opportunity of bringing this particular pro-vision up to date. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved Amendment No. 8:
Page 5, line 18, after ("due") insert ("to a mistake,")
The noble Lord said: In his speech on Second Reading the noble and learned Lord,, Lord Pearson, raised a point of detail to which this Amendment refers. His point was that as Clause 7(4) is at present drafted it would not be wide enough to relieve the employers from liability to the properly severe penalty in subsection (3) for non-payment of wages if the non-payment was due to a mistake. The noble Lord cited the example of an employer making an innocent, minor mistake in working out the amount due. He said:
"… if the employers have miscalculated and have paid, say, 10s. less than they ought to pay then they are in default."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24/3/70, col. 1357.]
He felt that it was wrong that in such circumstances they should be liable to the heavy penalties in subsection (3). I agree with the noble Lord and, as I said, on Second Reading:
"… nobody has any intention to penalise a shipowner or the master of a ship for an innocent mistake …"—[col. 1366.]
We had hitherto taken the view that subsection (4) of Clause 7 was adequate to prevent an innocent mistake from being penalised, but in view of the noble Lord's doubts we have looked at it again and now think that we can make the point clearer. This Amendment therefore expressly excludes the application of sub-section (3) if the failure was due to a mistake. I beg to move.
LORD SANDFORD: I am glad the noble Lord has moved this Amendment.

169
I suggest that we discuss it with my Amendment (No. 9) which follows and which seeks to secure an improvement of a similar kind; namely, to relieve the employer from a penalty which is due to a small mistake. This is a matter which was gone into in another place, where an Amendment on very much the same lines as my Amendment No. 9 was moved and was withdrawn, after an explanation by the Minister. But on reading through that explanation I cannot feel that the answer given then (it is given at col. 1445 of the Commons OFFICIAL REPORT) was entirely satisfactory. I am not absolutely certain that the wording of my Amendment is the best that can be devised, but I should be grateful if the Minister could indicate whether he agrees that, if an Amendment such as he has moved in the shape of No. 8 is required at line 18 to deal with mistakes as to the nature of a dispute (I imagine something about overtime), then something further is needed in line 20 to deal with an error which is the result of "the wrongful act or default" by those people who had some hand in drawing up the account for paying wages to seamen. I think it should be possible to deal with both matters together. I am not going to press Amendment No. 9, but I should like to hear what the Minis-ter has to say about it with a view to trying to improve it at a later stage.
LORD SANDFORD: I had expected the noble Lord to deal a little more fully with Amendment No. 8. I have nothing further to say on Amendment No. 9 which I now beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 20, after ("or") insert ("wilful").—(Lord Sandford.)
LORD BROWN: I apologise. I had intended to give a reply to the noble Lord before Amendment No. 8 was called. There is some fairly close legal thinking involved in the answer to the noble Lord's Amendment. I am going to read it. I am not going to insist that I understand it, but I think it is interesting.
"Wrongful act or default" is the phrase that the noble Lord wishes to amend to "wrongful act or wilful default". It is a phrase which is found in similar provisions in Section 134(C)
170
of the 1894 Act. So far as I am aware, it has never been claimed that accidental error in calculations, or similar innocent causes, comes within it or that under that section wages would in those circum-stances run on. The phrase "wrongful act or default" is, I am advised, to be construed as a whole, the word "wrongful" applying to both "act" and "default". This phrase is one which, taken as a whole, has a certain amount of legal authority. By virtue of that, it seems to me, at least an element of negligence, or other wrongful element, would have to be imported before a default came within it.
Another criticism of the Amendment is that if the failure to pay were due to an employer's act, one epithet would be applicable; namely, "wrongful". If it were due to a default, a different epithet would be applicable; namely, "wilful" —that is, deliberate. No longer would the epithet "wrongful" apply to both the act and the default. The position would be obscure and would give rise to considerable further argument as to whether the employer's act or omission was a wrongful act or a wilful default; and what, if anything, was the distinction between the two. I hope that that explanation helps the noble Lord. I admit that it is very deep and obscure, but I think it has cogence, and possibly in the light of that he will wish to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD HAWKE: There is one thing which the noble Lord, Lord Brown, has said which I do not quite follow. Not being a lawyer, I am probably wrong about this, but he said that the word "wrongful" is to be construed as acting both on the word "act" and on the word "default". But you are offering an alternative. If it were a wrongful act and default, I could well under-stand his reasoning, but when; you are offered an alternative of a wrongful act or a plain, simple default, I cannot see that the default can be held to be qualified by the word "wrongful". Unfortunately, most of the eminent lawyers who frequent this Chamber do not appear to be present and I should like a second legal opinion. We have had that of the noble Lord's—shall we say?—"tame lawyer", but is there not some independent lawyer in the Committee who would also give an opinion on this matter?
LORD SANDFORD: If I may just play for time while the noble and learned Lord, Lord Pearson, who has just joined us, catches his breath, we may be able to have some help from him. In discussing Amendment No. 9 we are discussing something on which a certain amount of legal advice and assistance would be helpful. The answer which the Minister has given me is very much the one which was given in another place and which, although it was a thorough and profound one, still remains, to my lay mind, a little unsatisfactory. That perhaps would not matter too much, were it not for the fact that it is this particular clause which, in many cases, will decide whether very onerous penalties are to be invoked. As I say, I am not proposing to press Amendment No. 9 at this stage, and if I have, by going on for a little, given the noble and learned Lord, Lord Pearson, time to pick up the threads, I shall gladly sit down. I look forward to hearing what he has to say to us about this matter.
LORD PEARSON: I feel I must respond to that kind invitation. I under-stand that we are concerned with Amendment No. 9 and therefore with page 5, line 20 and the words:
"the wrongful act or default of the persons liable to pay his wages."
I agree, of course, that the penalty im-posed is very severe, and I do not suppose that anyone would have thought of it had it not been already there in the Act of 1894. In that Act it was very onerous indeed, because if any part of the wages remained unpaid, the employer's liability to pay wages at the full rate continued for ever unless and until the default was found and put right. This is certainly much better than that, because there is a limitation to 56 days. But I think it has been suggested in another place that, at any rate when a mere mistake is made, that could be brought under the words, and that it would be all right because it would not be a wrongful act or default. It was suggested that in that phrase, which is a very familiar legal phrase, "wrongful act or default", you read the word "wrongful" both with "act" and with "default". I do not think that that is right. You need to put the "wrongful" with the word "act" in order to make it wrongful. In itself " act " is entirely neutral; it may be good
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or bad, but to make it bad you have to call it "wrongful". It is quite different with "default". A "default" is always a wrongful omission. If you put the word "wrongful" with it you will not add anything to it. A default is some-thing which is wrongful already. I should have thought that if a mistake is made, however innocent it may be, that is a default.
If, being the master coming through the last awkward and difficult stages of a voyage, you add up your sums wrongly, that is a default; and then when the employers who owe, say, £ 15, pay only £ 14 10s., the employers are in default to the extent of the missing 10s. I should have thought that that was so. It may, of course, be arguable the other way, but at any rate I think that is a sufficiently plausible view to make it necessary, or at least desirable, to put in something in order to make clear that that kind of mistake is not being made in this Bill. I should have thought something ought to be done.
I have observed that there is a pro-posed Amendment, which has, perhaps, been made already—Amendment No. 8. If that has already been made, I think it goes a long way to meet this point. Then if the error, the short payment, was due to a mere mistake, something which could reasonably be regarded as a mistake, it has probably been adequately met, and I should not myself think it is necessary to have anything more on this point. The other matter which arises, and which I mentioned during the Second Reading, is that this rather severe penalty is much too severe for a case in which only a small sum remains outstanding. An amount of 56 days' pay is an enormous penalty. But I do not think it would create serious trouble because I should not think it would often arise, unless there were some mere mistake; and I would attach considerable importance to the insertion of these words—which have been inserted, I understand, under Amendment No. 8—if it is due to a mistake.
LORD SANDFORD: I am sure that the whole Committee will be most grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Pearson, for that enlightenment on this subsection. I will certainly withdraw my Amendment and seek to substitute another, if by so doing I can improve

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this clause; but I dare say that the alteration secured by the Amendment No. 8will be sufficient. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to. Clause 8 agreed to.
Clause 9 [Regulations relating to wages and accounts]:
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 11:
Page 6, line 24, leave out ("under a crew agreement")
The noble Lord said: We now move to Clause 9 which concerns the regulations which, under this Bill when enacted, the Board of Trade may be able to make in connection with wages and accounts. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Pearson, and his Court of Inquiry, in paragraphs 226 and 227 of their Report, were looking forward to the time when the system of articles of agreement, which are well established but very ancient, could give way to a more up-to-date system of general contract and company agreements. I imagine that everybody who has looked into this matter will agree that this is something which we should all welcome and encourage. But if that is so, then we do not want the regulations that the Board of Trade will be able to make under Clause 9 to be restricted to crew agreements only. This Amendment and Nos. 12 and 13, which are consequential upon it, are designed to enlarge the clause and intro- duce this flexibility. I beg to move.
LORD BROWN: I am happy to tell your Lordships that this Amendment is not really necessary. There is no need for regulations to authorise deductions from wages payable other than under a crew agreement because there is nothing in the Bill to prohibit it. Clause 8(1), which prohibits unauthorised deductions, is limited to wages due under a crew agreement, as I think the noble Lord said, so Clause 10 is limited similarly. I am advised that there is nothing to pre-vent deductions from seamen's wages payable otherwise than under a crew agreement and no need therefore to authorise deductions.
LORD SANDFORD: I am delighted to hear that, and beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 9 agreed to.
Clauses 10 to 14 agreed to.
Clause 15 [Right, or loss of right, to wages in certain circumstances]
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved Amendment No. 14:
Page 9, line 26, after ("ship") insert ("or its ceasing to be registered in the United Kingdom").
The noble Lord said: This is purely a consequential Amendment. In Clause 15(2) provision is made for a seaman to receive wages during his unemployment in certain circumstances. Among those circumstances is the case where his employment in his ship is terminated before the date contemplated in his agreement by reason of his ship ceasing to be registered in the United Kingdom—for example, where he is discharged under Clause 5. The reference to the ship ceasing to be registered in the United Kingdom was added by an Amendment in another place. A similar reference should have been made consequentially in Clause 15(3)(a) and this omission is now corrected by the present Amendment. I beg to move.
LORD SANDFORD: We welcome this Amendment if it gives effect to the point raised by my honourable friend Mr. Hay in another place at col. 209 of the Committee stage Report. It completes the operation which, as the noble Lord says, was left incomplete when partial effect was given to the point raised during Re-port stage in another place.
4.15 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 15:
Page 9, line 29, at end insert—
(" () A seaman employed in a ship registered in the United Kingdom shall not be entitled to wages for any period during which he—

(a) unlawfully refuses or neglects to work when required; or

(b) is absent without leave; or

(c) is incapable of performing his duties by reason of an illness or injury which is caused by his wilful act or default.")

The noble Lord said: The purpose of this Amendment is to restore to the Bill a clause which was originally in it when the Bill was first introduced in another place—and, indeed, remained in it during Committee stage. It harks back to paragraphs 380 to 382 of the Pearson Report, in which that Court of Inquiry considered separately each of the matters covered by paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of my Amendment. Having surveyed the matters at issue, the Court of Inquiry recommended that the relevant sections, Sections 159, 160 and 161, of the Merchant Shipping Act, should be carried over into this revised Bill and that in each case the terms should become a standard clause in the articles of agreement; and the Court added that the terms seemed permanent enough to be suitably included in the Act.
The reasons given for removing this clause on Report stage in another place seem to me to be singularly inadequate, and if there are good reasons I shall be happy to hear what they are from the noble Lord. I think the Committee will agree that the matters covered are fundamental matters for life at sea, and there seems to be no reason at all why they should not continue to be in the Bill. These matters are so important that I agree with the Pearson Court of Inquiry that they should be included in the main body of the Bill. I beg to move.
LORD BROWN: I cannot recommend your Lordships to accept this Amendment. I should make clear that we are not arguing against its substance, but we feel that the matters with which it is concerned should not be dealt with in the Bill itself. It is true that Pearson recommended their inclusion, but the Report makes the point that they could well be included as standardised pro-visions in authorised agreements. In the less paternalistic atmosphere of to-day, when we are getting rid of so much un-necessary detail, I think it would be undesirable to cover in the Bill what are, in effect, detailed questions of contract. I do not think that there is any over-riding reason of public policy why we should do so. These are matters which should be left to industrial negotiations, as they commonly are. I should hope to see these details covered in the crew agreements and general employment
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agreements in the more normal way in which these matters are dealt with.
LORD SANDFORD: That argument might have had some force if it had prevailed at the time of the drafting of the Bill, but it did not prevail then, and when the Bill was first introduced in another place it contained, very properly, following Pearson, the subsection to which my Amendment relates. What the Committee will need to be told, I suggest, if my Amendment is to be with-drawn, is what good reasons have occurred to the Government, since the introduction of this Bill, to cause them to change their minds on this very important matter.
LORD BROWN: I have just given the good reasons. The fact that this appeared in the original Bill does not mean to say necessarily that in a Bill of 95 clauses deep consideration is given to every single item in it. On a review, and as a result of discussion in another place, it appeared proper that these matters should be dealt with by normal contracts of employment, as they are customarily dealt with in any other industry. There was no real reason why they should be included in the Bill. Indeed, if one were to follow the practice of including matters of this sort in Bills in relation to every industry, we should have an enormous amount of legislation in front of us. It would be foolish to put into a Bill things that can appear in a contract. Those were the reasons given at the time, and I give them again.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: Surely the noble Lord will agree that deep consideration should be given to every word that is in a Bill that comes to Parliament. If the Administration are not doing that, then they are negligent in their duty.
LORD BROWN: Deep consideration was given to it, and the consideration resulted in changes in the original drafting of the Bill.
LORD SANDFORD: I really cannot accept that. This Bill comes to us after a period of consultation stretching back to 1962 when, following the merchant seamen's strike of 1960, the previous Administration started the consultations which have led to this proposed revision of the Merchant Shipping Act. It has since been followed by Lord Pearson's Court of Inquiry, which made quite

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specific and clear recommendations, to the effect that a subsection on these lines should be included in the Bill. The Government did include it in the Bill at first. Then, during the passage of the Bill through the other place, they changed their mind—for reasons which we still have not had from the noble Lord. Un-less he can add to what he has just said, I must ask your Lordships to divide on this Amendment.
LORD BROWN: I must say that I rather resent being told by the noble Lord, after I have twice stated the reasons for not accepting this Amendment, that I have not given him any reasons. He himself is arguing not on the substance of what he wants to put into the Bill, but on the background of the procedure through which this has come. He has
Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 16 to 19 agreed to.
referred to the original draft of the Bill and to the proceedings in another place. None of these matters touches on the substance of the Amendment. I have got up twice and given substantive reasons for not including it. The noble Lord then rises and says that I have not given any reason. I resent that. I have given him the reasons, and if he does not choose to accept them he will have to divide the Committee. But I am not going to be told that I have not given reasons when I have done so—and, indeed, have given cogent reasons.
4.32 p.m.
On Question whether the said Amendment (No. 15) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 62; Not-Contents, 42.
Clause 20 [Crew Accommodation]:
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved Amendment No. 16:
Page 13, line: 43, leave out subsection (7).
The noble Lord said: The widening of subsection 1 (5) of the 1965 Act so that alterations of the particulars relating to registered tonnages of ships are not con-fined to ships registered before the coming into operation of regulations under that Act will cover the provision for alterations of registered tonnage contained in subsection (7) of Clause 20 of the Bill. In these circumstances subsection (7) of Clause 20 is no longer necessary and this Amendment removes it.
I think that may be a little obscure and perhaps I may comment a little further. Clause 20 deals with crew accommodation. The provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act dealing with that subject are repealed by the Bill and the clause empowers the Board of Trade to make regulations dealing with it. Crew accommodation is one of the spaces in a ship the tonnage of which is deducted from gross tonnage in order to ascertain the ship's registered tonnage. Accordingly, in the event of the Board's crew accommodation regulations imposing requirements which will alter the extent of existing crew accommodation space, the result will be to alter the ship's registered tonnage. As matters stand, the provisions of Section 82 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1894 would inhibit any such alteration. It was there-fore necessary to include in Clause 20 the provisions of subsection (7) in order to counteract this.
However, the new clause which, for tonnage measurement purposes generally, widened Section 1(5) of the Merchant Shipping Act 1965 contains the general provision that tonnage measurement regulations made under this section may make provision for this alteration (notwithstanding Section 82 of the 1894 Act) of the particulars relating to the tonnage of a ship. This general provision therefore makes unnecessary the particular provision made in Clause 20(7), which dealt with only one factor in tonnage measurement where alteration would be needed, that is, crew accommodation space. I hope this is clear, and I beg to move the Amendment.
LORD SANDFORD: The Committee will be grateful to the noble Lord for that explanation. The only question I should like to raise is whether this is in
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any sense a paving Amendment to Amendment No. 29, dealing with the same subject, or are they two quite separate matters?
LORD BROWN: I do not think the two matters are really connected. The latter Amendment is on a different subject.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 20, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 21 to 25 agreed to.
Clause 26 [Expenses of medical treatment, etc., during voyage]:
4.37 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 17:
Page 16, line 29, at end insert:
("Provided that—

(i) the liability of those persons shall be conditional upon the person so employed or his legal personal representatives affording to those persons every facility to prosecute in his name any claim for indemnity or damages or otherwise, and allowing them full discretion in the conduct of any proceedings or in the settlement of any claim, and, to the extent of such conditional liability, surrendering to them all rights in respect of such claim;

(ii) nothing contained in this section shall prejudice any right of recovery of such expenses from a person other than the person so employed.")

The noble Lord said: I believe that we now come to the first matter to which one of my Amendments refers that is not dealt with, so far as I am aware, in Pearson. The matter in question in Clause 26 is, as the Bill indicates that of the payment of expenses for medical treatment for members of the crew during a voyage. If I understand the matter aright, this was hitherto covered by Section 34 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1906: the owners had liability towards meeting the medical expenses of members of their crew who had gone sick on board, or sustained injury resulting from their service on board. That, one might think, was a reasonable state of affairs. The owners have now offered an extension of their liability to cover the bearing of the cost abroad of medical treatment of all members of the crew in respect of any injury and every illness, however caused or contracted, whether on board or ashore.
One might say that this is a heavy liability—almost an unlimited liability— and if the employers accept it I think they are being extremely generous. Although the Pearson Court of Inquiry made no comment about this matter, I think that if this is the position the liability of the owners—which they appear to have accepted —ought to have a certain amount of limitation and restriction such as my Amendment seeks to secure. As members of the Committee will see from the terms of my Amendment, it is designed to enable the shipowners to recover, if they can, some of the costs that might result from this greatly extended liability from those people who may be responsible for an injury, and from whom some damages, or costs, or recompensation, might be due. This is a matter which was raised in another place at the Committee stage but withdrawn following an offer by the Minister to investigate further. It was raised again at the Report stage, but so far nothing further has been done, and in those circumstances I felt obliged to table this Amendment to ascertain the Government's attitude towards this matter.
LORD HAWKE: I really am very astonished at Clause 26 in this Bill. Some-where in the clause there ought to be a proviso that the treatment has been incurred with the consent of the master, or words to that effect. One can well imagine a seaman, perhaps with two or three days to spare in the United States, having himself fitted with a new set of false teeth, and the bill, probably of £50 to £100, going to the shipping line, where-as in Liverpool he would obtain the teeth on the National Health. Examples of this kind can be taken further. I feel certain that the noble Lord ought to put some-thing in the Bill in this connection (unless there is already there something that I have not read) limiting the liability of the owners to treatment and replacement of apparatus, to which the master has given his consent.
LORD BROWN: I take note of the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke. The Amendment now before us does not cover the point he has raised, of course, but I will have it looked at. If necessary, I will bring forward an Amendment on Report stage. At the moment, as I say, it seems to me an important point, and we will have a look at it. I thank the noble Lord.
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With regard to the Amendment before us, I am sure that all members of the Committee will agree that it is reason-able that an employer should be assisted by the seaman concerned in recovering, if it is legally possible, the expenses that he has incurred when his employee has been injured by a third party. I am not however persuaded as to the necessity or desirability of having in the Bill a statutory provision to that effect. We have given quite a great deal of thought to this matter, which was thoroughly ventilated in another place. Our conclusion remains that these are matters which are more appropriate to be dealt with in the contract of employment between the employer and the seaman. Such contractual provision could then take account of the many countries and circumstances in which recoveries might have to be made. This is a fairly important point.
I think it should be borne in mind that the provisions referred to in the Amendment are based on clauses commonly found in insurance policies which cover far more than mere medical expenses. On the other hand, in the circumstances envisaged in the Bill, where expenses are incurred by an employer through the wrongful act of a third party, the seaman will normally have a claim for personal injuries which might be much more substantial than the claim for medical expenses. It would be wholly inequitable to provide that, because the employer has had to pay medical expenses, he should be able to conduct or influence the conduct of the seaman's general claim. For example, the seaman might have lost a leg. He might have a claim for thousands of pounds because of some third party's negligence. It would be quite wrong to leave the ship-owner to conduct the claim because he might settle for the medical expenses which he had had to pay, leaving the seaman without recompense for the loss of a limb.
I have also considered the second proviso in the Amendment, which seeks to ensure that nothing in the clause shall prejudice any right of recovery from third parties. I am satisfied that this will not greatly assist the parties concerned. It is important to bear in mind that, for the most part, claims will arise abroad; and this proviso would have little or no

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effect on the rules applicable in the foreign courts concerned. It is on these grounds that I would ask your Lordships to reject this Amendment.
LORD SANDFORD: I am grateful to the noble Lord for that explanation of why he feels that this Amendment may not be suitable in its present form. The intention behind the Amendment is no more than the one I expressed: to enable the owners to recoup themselves, so far as may be possible, from those parties from whom such recoupment may be due in respect of the medical expenses they have borne on the seaman's behalf. It is certainly not the intention that that action by the shipowners—to recoup themselves on account of their medical expenses—should exhaust, or in any way impair, the right of the seaman to further damages if they are due to him and can be obtained. If these are the reasons for which the Minister wishes to advise the Committee to reject this Amendment, I am happy to withdraw it, but I should like first to hear from the noble Lord why he feels that he can-not himself put down an Amendment which would secure what I am seeking to secure yet avoid the danger which he foresees.
LORD BROWN: The noble Lord has quoted only one of the reasons why I asked the Committee to reject this Amendment—this matter of claiming damages from a third party. Another reason I gave was that it was our considered opinion that these matters are better included in the contract of employment. It is not just that we feel this is a matter which it is better to keep out of the Bill—which was a reason I gave on a previous Amendment; it is also because the detailed circumstances that will arise around a matter of this kind would make any general provision in the Bill very much less valuable than if account were taken of the circum-stances in the contract of employment. This is another reason. There was a third reason also with regard to the latter part of the Amendment; and for the three reasons given I think this Amendment should be rejected.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: If the noble Lord is correct in what he said, that these
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matters should be included in the con-tract of employment, would that not also apply to Clause 26 itself? It seems that one follows the other. Surely it is the intention that everything should be done to enable the owner to recover as much as he can of the expense which he him-self accepted in relation to injuries to the seaman. Surely one should try to help him recover what is necessary. My noble friend said that the seaman who has been injured can have his claim, as well as the owner having his claim for medical expenses. I really do not follow why one should be in the contract of employment while the other should be in the Bill, because they both go together.
LORD BROWN: In dealing with matters of this kind one has to remember that in one case one is seeking to protect the rights of individuals who are not always easily able to help themselves; in the other case one is dealing with corporate bodies, such as limited liability companies, corporations and so on, and one cannot compare them in precise terms. A corporate body such as a ship-owning concern has facilities at its disposal which a seaman does not have. These are the grounds on which it is fair to insist that an employer undertakes liability in an Act to cover the medical expenses of his employees when they are overseas, whereas the detailed following through of that course could well be dealt with in the contract of employment. That is why it is not suggested that the whole of this clause should be embodied in the contract of employment. One wants to give this liability to a corporate body such as is constituted by the employer.
LORD PEARSON: May I add a word on this matter, as nothing was said about it in the Report? I feel a little anxiety that we shall put one side of the story into the Bill, and that the other side of the story will have to be put in a con-tract, with the consent of both parties. I should have thought it might be said on the seaman's side, "Well, the Act has said all there is to be said on this subject. What right have you, the employer, to seek to insert in my employment contract some further provisions which the Act has omitted to deal with?" This is a very difficult subject. I fully appreciate the strength of the objections to the Amendment as it stands, and I would not

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support the Amendment in its present form. But I wonder whether some consideration should be given to the possibility of inserting in this clause of the Bill some reference to this right of the employers to be indemnified in respect of their expenses.
There is of course the difficulty that it would presumably not be possible to bring two actions against the supposed wrongdoer—the person who by his wrongful act, such as a street accident or something of that sort, has inflicted the injury on the employee—because pre-sumably in most foreign countries the employee could bring only one action: there could not be one action by the employer and another by the employee. That is what makes this question diffi-cult. But I venture to suggest that a little further consideration might be given to the question whether something could be put into this clause in order at any rate to keep open the possibility of the employers being able to require some reasonable contractual provision to be inserted in the contract.
LORD SANDFORD: I am satisfied that the Amendment as I have tabled it is defective in one important respect, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Pearson, has drawn to our attention—as did the Minister himself—and therefore I will certainly withdraw it. Before doing so, I would make the point that I am not convinced by the argument that one part of this bargain can go into the Act and another part can go into the contract of employment. In my view this whole business must be dealt with in the Act; and if the owners are to have their liability extended in this considerable way, and are to be required to assume this very large liability, they must be safe-guarded, if it is at all possible to do it, in the same clause.
I rather hoped that, having heard what has been said, and particularly what has been said by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Pearson, the Minister himself would be able to give us an undertaking that he will take this away and look at it in order to see what can be done. I shall in any case withdraw this Amendment now, and if the Government are not able to table an Amendment of their own I will see what I can do between this stage and the next. Perhaps the Minister would care to comment.
LORD BROWN: I have taken note of the somewhat more limited comment made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Pearson, which is much more limited than the extent of the Amendment before us now, and I will certainly look at it again in the light of that comment.
LORD SANDFORD: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 26 agreed to. Clause 27 agreed to.
Clause 28 [Drunkenness, etc., on duty]:
On Question, Whether Clause 28 shall stand part of the Bill?
4.54 p.m.
LORD BLYTON: In moving my Amendment to leave out Clause 28, may I suggest that it might be for the convenience of the Committee if we were to have one debate on this and the following three Amendments, which all deal with the criminal clauses in this Bill.
I welcome this Bill to grant seamen benefits which shore workers have enjoyed as of right but for which seamen have waited for years. I am aware that the totality of the Bill is the result of com-promise between the conflicting interests. Clauses 28, 29, 30 and 31 are totally unacceptable to the seamen's union and completely contrary to the agreement recently reached between the T.U.C. and the Government in regard to industrial relations. The Bill follows closely the suggestions of the Court of Inquiry con-ducted by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Pearson, and the seamen are in fundamental disagreement with the legalistic and rigid approach of the Court of Inquiry to the complexity of industtrial relations. In shipboard employment flexibility is essential, and more in the seafaring industry than in any other industry because industrial relations are very much a matter of personal relations on board ship.
These clauses deal with sanctions on men who are employed in ships, and I consider that events over the years have proved beyond doubt that penal legislation is not required in British ships to maintain the highest standard of discipline of any maritime nation in the

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world. These penal clauses are not required and our seafarers should not be expected to accept penalties which are totally unacceptable to any other worker in this country. What we should have is industrial discipline rather than penal discipline. The National Union of Seamen take a very dim view of these penal clauses. They are seeking the support of the T.U.C. and there is no doubt that if the Bill becomes law the union will use all their power to protect their members against the tremendous powers that are held by the master of a ship.
Surely even at this late stage something could be done to remove the fears of the seafarers. Legal intervention in labour matters has had an unhappy history in this country, reflected recently in the controversy surrounding In Place of Strife. In its Report, the Donovan Commission expressed the view that the general principle for seamen should be, to the extent compatible with their calling, the same rights as employees ashore, and surely Clauses 27, 34 and 36 are more than adequate for the maintenance of discipline on board British vessels.
Seamen are protesting strongly against the concept of criminal sanctions in relation to the regulation of their conditions of employment in the latter half of the twentieth century. These men, having served so long under such sanctions, are aggrieved to note that this part of the Bill is a re-statement, in some cases word for word, of the old nineteenth century Merchant Shipping Act which it seeks to replace. In its fully reasoned recommendations, the Donovan Com-mission found that the use of law in employment merely exacerbated industrial relations, and seamen who have served for many years under such laws endorse this view.
The safety of men and the ships in which they sail has always been given the highest priority by the National Union of Seamen, and they entirely endorse Clause 27. Like the mining industry and fishing industry, where group actions are important in the maintenance of safe working conditions, the use of the criminal law as a possible sanction against offenders is acceptable. It is recognised that a vessel, which is a seaman's place of work, can be absent from
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this country for a considerable period of time, and agreed breaches of industrial discipline may need to be dealt with immediately. The old Bill invested absolute power in the hands of the master, who could impose penalties for a host of offences. In many cases excessive power, justified solely by "the right to do it", gave vent to considerable bitterness and anger by both those who witnessed it and those who received it. It contributed in no small way to the powerful eruption of protest expressed during the seamen's strike in 1966.
The setting up of shipboard representative committees to deal with com-plaints is an attempt to alleviate many of the injustices inflicted on seamen at sea. I welcome Clause 36 in that it seeks to provide for ships disciplinary committees on which officers and ratings will be represented to deal with disciplinary offences on board. This is a check and counterbalance to masters who abuse their excessive powers.
While agreeing to Clause 27, which covers serious offences, I suggest that for offences which are of a less serious nature the ships' disciplinary committees are empowered to impose warnings or fines, and if necessary they can send a conduct report to the shore-based port industrial committees. These committees are administered by both the unions and the shipowners' representatives to deal with those seamen who have failed to join their vessels or for whom an adverse conduct report has been received from their last ships. They possess power to warn a man as to his future conduct and suspend him from the industry for a given period of time, and in more serious cases they can expel him from the industry. I suggest that penalties of that kind can be more powerful in effect than any court fine suggested in these penalty clauses.
Again, suspension can involve a man in the loss of his right to unemployment benefit. I know of no evidence that has been produced to justify the maintenance of the criminal law approach to 20th century industrial relations being embodied in the Bill. It is no argument that these acts will be little used or implemented. It needs only one or two cases to plague the whole industrial relations in the seafaring industry. Because seamen in the past suffered such

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threats of statutory penalties for industrial offences, causing no harm, it would be wrong to believe that that view will prevail now. Seamen are much better educated to-day than they were forty or fifty years ago. To trade unions criminal sanctions are repulsive. I thought the lesson had been learned when the Minister of Productivity brought in her White Paper.
Clause 28 deals with drunkenness on duty. This clause imposes fines of up to £50 for being under the influence of drink when on duty. Why should there be a criminal penalty for this industrial offence? Should it constitute a threat to the safety of the vessel or the life on board, then Clause 27 provides ample coverage for such a serious offence. The clause does not distinguish between the seriousness of the offences. For example, a night steward, whose job may just entail cleaning some accommodation, if drunk on duty would be equally liable as would an able seaman under the influence of drink while on look-out duty.
This clause is not necessary. Indeed, the July version of the Bill included two other offences while on duty, and they are not now in the Bill: namely, that of a man who improperly leaves his post, and secondly, that of a man asleep on duty. For those offences I believe the Pearson Committee recommended imprisonment. Protests were made that such clauses went further than the old shipping Acts and were quite contrary to the intent of the new Bill to reform an antiquated piece of legislation. Regard-less of that, nothing prevents men responsible for such acts as those I have quoted from being prosecuted under Clauses 29 and 30. This helps to illustrate a major complaint: that the Bill, like the existing old Act, allows the possibility of punishment under various procedures for the same industrial offence.
As to Clause 29, again there is the use of the criminal law with the blanket coverage of offences. I appreciate the difficulties that arise in defining what constitutes a lawful order. The Pearson Committee, in discussing this subject, suggested that not every act of wilful disobedience should be a criminal one. They suggested that a special feature of aggravation should be present, such as the nature and the circumstances of the order. The clause does not in any way make
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that clear. And the courts will be concerned solely as to whether the act was wilful and whether it is in compliance with the clause. The clause is restricted to orders affecting the operation of the ship or its equipment. Even to the most limited of imaginations, the provision becomes highly interpretable and totally unnecessary, unless the act constitutes a serious threat to the safety of the ship— for which Clause 27 is expressly designed.
Clause 30 contains a wide and un-qualified range of offences dealing with neglect of duty and disobeying of lawful commands. Moreover, should the offence be committed with other seamen, conspiracy tones are introduced, for which protection given to the shore worker will not necessarily be applicable in this case. Again the grave interpretations of lawful command arises. Quite apart from the heavy fine of £100, this clause follows almost verbatim the 1894 Act, and there is no guarantee that a grave exploration of such wide range in power will not ensue. I would point out that it is not the disobedience to a reasonable lawful command that constitutes a criminal offence, solely that it is a lawful one. It could be argued that by removing the word "persistently" in this clause every conceivable industrial offence could be covered by this clause alone.
Clause 31 deals with absence without leave. Why should this be treated as a criminal offence and not simply as a breach of contract, as for an industrial shore worker? I reject the thinking behind the retention of a criminal penalty for an "absent without leave" situation, which is adequately dealt with by the shore-based disciplinary committee. Where damages are incurred, the employer, as with other shore workers, has the right to pursue a civil action for damages suffered as a direct result of a man's absence without leave. I may be told that no imprisonment is involved under these clauses, only fines. But surely that places seamen squarely in the position that evolved in the argument in regard to In Place of Strife, where also no imprisonment was proposed.
It may be said that, at this point of time in the Bill's formulation, no alteration of this new Merchant Shipping Bill can be made. I have read the statement made in another place by the Under-secretary of State for Employment and

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Productivity on Third Reading of this Bill. He suggested that unions and employers should get together under the National Maritime Board, and said that if they got agreement the Government would go along with them. Then we had the junior Minister of the Board of Trade, who said that the disciplinary provisions are right and necessary for the present time but that circumstances can change. He also said that if in due time it proved necessary to legislate again on some of these provisions it would be all the easier to do so. The positions adopted by the two Ministers seem to me to be contradictory, and have most certainly shaken the seamen's union. These criminal clauses are to be made Statute Law, before any of the shipowners or the unions have met to see whether agreement can be reached. How can you expect to get agreement if the dice is loaded before you meet?
Let there be no mistake about the future. These clauses will poison industrial relations. The N.U.S. are already preparing their members for the struggle ahead. I have read their circular to their membership: it does not augur well for good industrial relations in the seafaring industry. There is no doubt that Mr. Harold Walker's statement to the House made many Members think that here was a chance for the unions and the employers to get together, and that if they reached agreement the Government would accept it.
Many M.Ps. to whom I have spoken only this week thought that this was a way out of these penal clauses. But this was not so. On March 18, in a letter written to Mr. Huskisson, of the Shipping Federation, six days after the debate, Mr. Goronwy Roberts said:
"The Government's position thus stated "—
he was referring to the penal clauses—
"is that the disciplinary provisions of Clauses 29, 30, 31 of the Merchant Shipping Act are right and necessary for the present time."
Then how can you expect to get agreement? And what is the use of trying, if this is the Government's attitude? Again, what will be the use of meeting to try to reach agreement on the penal clauses when they will then be embodied in the law? The seamen take a very dim view indeed of this. There have been numerous
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consultations with Ministers involved, and with other committees, when it has been stressed that penal sanctions are unnecessary. Unfortunately, there has been no success in convincing the Government of the seriousness of the seamen's case.
The issue of penal sanctions that I have outlined for normal breaches of industrial discipline where no harm is done, is totally wrong in concept and out of keeping with the traditional approach to industrial relations in this country, and it is totally unacceptable to the Seamen's Union, whose members constitute the major proportion of the men who go to sea. After much thought, I am convinced that the use of Clause 27, which covers the threat to the safety of the vessel and of those who sail in it, adequately covers such serious offences. The shipboard disciplinary committees, strongly sup-ported by the ultimate sanction of expulsion from the industry and by jointly administered port disciplinary committees, are more than adequate to meet the flexibility and contingencies of the seafaring industry.
The Government should look at this clause again, for I am sure that in the years ahead they will regret it when it is too late. Probably it will take many years again to build up good labour relations in this industry. The General Secretary of the Seamen's Union, in a circular to his membership on March 22, four days after the Board of Trade letter to Mr. Huskisson, said:
"At the present time, active steps have been taken to implement talks with the T.U.C. and the highest level of Government. All officials, as a matter of urgency, must contact as many of the membership as possible and advise them that it is our intention, as a union, to strongly resist the inclusion of these penal clauses in the Bill in any manner which it is felt will assist to this end. Both officials and members must be prepared to give all assistance possible, if and when called upon, and for every effort to be made to convey a sense of unity in our opposition to the penal clauses being included in the new Merchant Shipping Bill."
That is the feeling of the Seamen's Union; it is also the feeling of the members. I have been to several meetings in my own home town, and the seamen have expressed themselves forcefully to me. You cannot build up a happy industry in this atmosphere. The Government should take note before it is too late. The Prime Minister told the seamen last week that, if in Government, he would look at this again in three years' time.

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It has been said that 100 days in politics is a long time. Three years under these penal clauses is an eternity and will bring in its train bad labour relations in one of our most important industries, one essential to the whole welfare of this nation. I beg to move.
5.16 p.m.
LORD BROWN: I am sure we are all agreed, the noble Lord, Lord Blyton, included, on the need to maintain disci-pline at sea: it is vital to the safety and efficiency of the Merchant Navy. There are many factors which contribute to the maintenance of discipline. The statutory offences, with one of which Clause 28 deals, and the other clauses which we are here debating, are only part of a pattern of measures in which shipboard and shore disciplinary procedures, too, play their part. Acts of misconduct on ships, apparently trivial in themselves, can to-day be of great importance not only to the efficiency of the operation of the ship (which is important enough in itself) but also, eventually, to the safety of the ship. In an oil tanker, or, even worse, in a ship carrying chemicals, a simple order to-day to turn off or to turn on a valve may sound to the individual receiving it a simple enough and perhaps not very important order, but a long chain of events may lead to death at sea as a result of disobeying a simple order of that kind.
Current legislation provides for various terms of imprisonment for nearly all the acts of disobedience otherwise listed in the four clauses that we are considering. Only one of the clauses in this Bill, Clause 27, provides that penalty. The other clauses, Clauses 28, 29, 30 and 31, provide for fines. One result of the removal from the Bill of these four clauses could be that, in the event of wilful disobedience of a lawful command, or of persistent and wilful neglect of duty, it would be quite possible to construe this as affecting the safety of the ship—as in many cases it would. In that event the only clause in this Bill under which the offenders could be dealt with would be Clause 27. If they came before the courts one would have the rather striking result that, whereas my noble friend Lord Blyton wishes to exclude these four clauses because they contain the right of courts to fine, the same offences that would have been dealt
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with under those four clauses might be driven into the ambit of Clause 27, and the court might see fit to order imprisonment. So that in one sense—and I emphasise "in one sense"—the pro-visions of Clauses 28, 29, 30 and 31 are an amelioration of the rigorous situation which might emerge should they be deleted. I would ask my noble friend to take note of the possible effect of the Amendments which he is now suggesting.
These clauses are all in accordance with the recommendations of the Pear-son Report, which was produced after hearing the views of all the parties. They are consistent with the views of all the parties to those discussions, apart from the National Union of Seamen. It could be that in time, as I said during the Second Reading debate, in the light of the working of the Bill and, very importantly, the experience of the new ships' disciplinary committees (and we really must get experience of the working of these committees, because, as my noble friend knows very well, the working of disciplinary committees in industry, particularly during the last war, was a mixed one; some worked very well and some did not work at all well), there will be changes. But the Government feel that the clauses are right and proper at the present time.
They are not the end of the road, and I can assure the noble Lord—though he appears to be already aware of the fact —and all concerned, that the Government will review them after three years and will consider whether any changes ought to be made; and we are commit-ting ourselves to that. In the meantime, if the industry wish an earlier review, or if there is some need for consultation with the industry about them, we are prepared to consider the matter again. I hope that, with this assurance, my noble friend will not press his Amendment to leave out the clause.
I must add one other thing: it is right that this House should know of the feelings of the National Union of Sea-men in a matter of this sort. In so far as these feelings could be construed as threats, however, the Union would be quite wrong even to imply threats over this House in the process of dealing with legislation. I am not in any sense criticising my noble friend Lord Blyton for giving us the views of the National Union

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of Seamen, but I thought it fitting to make that comment. I hope that the noble Lord will see fit not to persist in his four Amendments to leave out Clauses 28 to 31.
5.24 p.m.
LORD MILFORD: I should like to speak in support of the Amendment to delete Clause 28. I have gladly followed the Minister into the Lobby this after-noon when there has been a Division, and I hope to do so again if there are any more this evening, but on these clauses I cannot agree with him, and he has not satisfied me by his reply. It seems to me that the seamen have been let down by the Government through these clauses. At the time of the sea-men's strike the Prime Minister promised the complete scrapping of the 76-year-old Act, a thorough re-examination of the whole industry, and a new Bill; and of course, we have had the Pearson Report.
We have now, on the whole, a Bill which I agree is a long way in advance of anything that has gone before, and I know that the seamen are gratified for that. But the hated penal clauses which stood in the old Act have been retained in the present Bill, and these clauses have been the cause of strife and bitter resentment for years and years. It does not need any stretch of imagination to under-stand the frustration, the sense of let-down, that the seamen are now feeling. They feel that they are especially singled out for penal treatment when a few months ago, in the fierce discussion on the White Paper, In Place of Strife, the Prime Minister and the Government agreed with the T.U.C. and the other unions to drop all penal legislation.
I am not convinced by what the noble Lord has said that the seamen have to be treated as a special case, as if they are a special brand of human beings needing special punishments. It is natural that they suspect they are being looked down on as a lower form of worker, one not to be trusted and needing special disciplinary measures. Of course strict discipline must be upheld on a ship at sea, as the noble Viscount, Lord Runciman of Doxford, said on Second Reading: that is absolutely imperative, and all the nations of the world recognise this, just as in the airlines or in the
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mines there must be absolutely strict discipline.
Clause 27 covers all indiscipline which causes danger, or may cause an accident or the sinking of a ship, and I agree that Clause 27 should be supported because of that. But these other clauses are petty, irksome and, in a way, insulting to seamen—clauses about being drunk, or having drink, and these other matters. I think the Minister should admit that Clause 30 could be interpreted as a danger to trade unionism, and to getting together on trade union matters.
As I have said, the whole question of fines is petty and insulting, and Mr. Hogarth, the General Secretary of the National Union of Seamen, has written in their Journal
"Unfortunately, the Bill reflects the belief that fines are still a necessary deterrent to indiscipline … There is no evidence that monetary punishment prevents indiscipline, neither is there any evidence that good order on board ship would collapse in its absence … In our view "—
the view of the National Union of Sea-men—
"there is adequate machinery at the disposal of all interested parties with which to deal with industrial indiscipline. Consequently, the authority to fine is both unnecessary and redundant."
I urge the Government, therefore, to wipe out these clauses, and not to retain them as a special petty thing that the seamen have to bear over other workers. I oppose these clauses with great vigour, because I believe they can give rise, through irritation and frustration, to strife in the industry—something that none of us wants. If this Amendment is lost, I shall raise the whole question from another angle on the Report stage of this Bill in your Lordships' House.
5.28 p.m.
LORD LEATHERLAND: But for the speech we have just heard from the noble Lord I should have been content to remain silent, but I think it devolves on us, if we differ from speeches which have been made in support of the Amendments, to say that some of us are in favour of the clauses as they stand in the Bill. The noble Lord who has just spoken asked why seamen should be specially separated from workers in ordinary employment. Well, it seems to me that the answer is perfectly simple: these offences by seamen may occur 500

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miles from land where hundreds of men, women and children may be in danger of being drowned or burned to death, and it certainly seems to me that a more rigorous standard of discipline is essential in those circumstances, and far more essential than in the case of a shop or office worker, or a man on the production line of a motor car factory.
The noble Lord mentioned that Clause 27 is capable of covering all these offences. He did not mention that Clause 27 refers to cases taken on indictment— that is, the equivalent of our quarter sessions and Assizes—whereas the clauses with which we are now dealing are more or less in the nature of a magistrates' court, and I think that the presence of Clause 27 in the Bill does not in any way render unnecessary the clauses which we are now considering. One thing is certain; seamen to-day are a far more responsible and respectable body of men than they were in the last century. They have a high sense of self-discipline which does not usually need to be enforced or influenced in any way from above. Nevertheless, this safety valve, this last resort of discipline that can be applied immediately, is absolutely essential in the circumstances in which ships put to sea.
My noble friend Lord Blyton and I were both in the First World War. He knows far more about sea-going discipline than I do, because when he was sailing along in a submarine at the bottom of the sea I was a 20-year-old company sergeant-major in France. But I think we both realise that circumstances arise in moments of crisis when disciplinary action must be taken and, to be effective, must be taken immediately. That is the justification for giving the master of the ship power to enforce discipline by imposing punishment in certain cases. The safety of ships is at stake. Danger can come from fire and from water, and this is something which hardly exists in land-borne employment. I should certainly not agree to sanctions of this kind being imposed in the case of ordinary manufacturing or distributive industry at home, but at sea things are different and that is the very hub of the whole argument that confronts us to-day.
Looking at the clauses themselves—and these are not minor offences that are
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being considered—Clause 28 refers to a man drunk on duty
"to such an extent that his capacity to carry out his duties is impaired".
That would be a terrible state of affairs if the ship were in a crisis. Clause 29 refers to a seaman who
"wilfully disobeys a lawful command … likely to affect the operation of the ship".
Surely one can hardly visualise anything more serious than that in a moment of crisis. Clause 30 covers a seaman who "persistently and wilfully disobeys", and the word "persistently" is coupled there with the word "wilfully". We all know that there are members of the awkward squad who will not obey orders even in moments of crisis, and I think that a master would feel himself completely impotent if he was not able to impose penalties immediately when his authority was disobeyed in that way.
As for absence without leave, which is dealt with in Clause 31, I put that in a somewhat different category, although of course it is coupled with the fact that a man's absence delays the sailing of the ship or forces it to go to sea without him. That can be a serious matter involving very considerable loss to the owners of the ship, but, as I said, I am not so much concerned with Clause 31 as I am with the others, which I think are vital to the efficient operation of ships at sea.
The penalties themselves are reason-able—fines of £50 and £100. There is no clapping men in irons here, and the men will have some right of appeal. Furthermore, we have heard that the disciplinary committees are to be established and this will give the men a voice, as is being given at the moment in the undisciplined state of conduct that is prevailing at some of our universities. Disciplinary committees are being set up there on which the students themselves have representation. I welcome very much the establishment of these ship's disciplinary committees, and I think they will lead to the master of the ship enjoying a greater feeling of confidence than he has had in the past. The one point that worries me is that circum-stances may arise where the lives of hundreds of people are at stake, and in those conditions the master must be

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able to rely upon his commands being immediately obeyed.
Clause 28 agreed to.
Clauses 29 to 35 agreed to.
Clause 36 [Power to provide for ship's disciplinary committees]:
5.35 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 18:
Page 18, line 39, leave out subsection (1) and insert—
("(1) The Board of Trade may make regulations authorising the setting up in ships of committees of persons employed in the ships, to be known as ship's disciplinary committees, to assist the master or other officer required or authorised to exercise such power in the determination of whether or not a disciplinary offence has been committed.")
The noble Lord said: I suggest that with this Amendment we discuss Amendment No. 19 which is consequential. We now move to the establishment of the disciplinary committees, of which we heard a certain amount in the last debate and which are one of the most important innovations recommended by Pearson. It might be helpful, by way of introducing what I have to say on this Amendment, if I quote verbatim Pearson's recommendation on this matter, which is No. (5)(d) on page 126 of the Report. I ask your Lordships to note the quite different tone of this recommendation from that of the clause which has emerged in the Bill. The Pearson recommendation was:
"The statutory provisions should not exclude the possibility of an eventual change of system, whereby the shipboard jurisdiction would be exercised by a ship's committee, and the statutory provisions should allow experiments to be made in the meantime with ship's committees exercising the jurisdiction (paragraph 296)."
I think your Lordships will agree that that recommendation, clear as it is, is tentative, limited, experimental and per-missive.
The whole business of disciplinary committees was fully discussed in the other place, both in Committee and at the Report stage. I should like to take this opportunity of welcoming the use of the Affirmative Resolution procedure, which was introduced at the Report stage, in respect of the Statutory Instrument by which the regulations bringing this change into force will be introduced.
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I am glad to know that the preliminary work that has been done has resulted in an agreement reached at the National Maritime Board on the form of the disciplinary tribunals that will be set up by way of experiment on board certain selected ships. But I submit that the present clause is too emphatic, too positive and too lacking in the tentative and experimental tone of Pearson.
Everybody concerned with this matter looks forward to experiments with these committees, but it will be necessary to introduce them with great care in a tentative way, to make sure that the experience is carefully evaluated, and I am not satisfied that the terms used in this clause are of the nature required at this stage. I am very willing, and indeed eager, to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Brown, has to say in support of the clause, but at this stage I much prefer, in the absence of any further explanation from him, something more on the lines of my Amendment. I beg to move.
LORD BROWN: I do not feel able to accept this Amendment which, as the noble Lord is aware, was fully discussed in another place. The primary function of a master in relation to disciplinary offences is the imposition of fines. I do not think that we should rule that out of the exercise of this function of ships' disciplinary committees in advance, as the Amendment seeks to do. We should not pre-judge the future of these committees. We do not yet know what form they might take or what functions they should exercise. We wish to consult the industry and to set up carefully controlled experiments. We ought, I think, to look for-ward to these committees taking over the master's functions in respect of fines, at least as a possibility. I do not think that this could derogate from the master's authority, and, indeed, I should expect him normally to be the chairman of the committee. I agree that this is a matter which should be entered into most care-fully. It is a most important part of the Bill and marks a considerable advance in shipboard relations. We are seeking to follow the various possibilities opening out from the Pearson Report, and I believe very strongly that we should keep the situation open and not seek to limit it in the way that this Amendment would.

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I am told that there is even now under consideration one experiment which would involve a choice on the part of a crew member who had committed some offence to be dealt with by a committee or, on the other hand, by the master. This Amendment would exclude an experiment like that. I well remember the history of joint consultation during the war. Much of it was a dismal failure because joint consultation so often means, "I will accept any advice which is consistent with my own view". This Amendment, leading to the role of an advisory committee to the master, might have just that result. It might be very damaging to experiments which would help very greatly to solve the problems of shipboard discipline and improve relationships greatly. It is on these grounds that I think it would be folly to accept the Amendment, because it would limit the field of experimentation in the future; and I hope that the noble Lord will see fit to withdraw it.
LORD SANDFORD: I do not believe that my Amendment has the effect which the noble Lord suggests. That is certainly not the intention behind it. I do not think there is very much between us, but I should be grateful if the noble Lord could give us a slightly more categorical assurance—I am sure that this is in his mind and in the mind of the Board of Trade—that they are not immediately going to take all the powers which Clause 36 as at present drafted would confer upon them; that they are in fact going to do no more, in the first place, than authorise the setting up of disciplinary committees and help the industry to conduct these experiments; and that no owner, master, crew member or shipping line is going right from the beginning to have a disciplinary committee imposed on them against their will. This is what I am a little anxious about, because the clause as drafted, it seems to me, would allow the Board of Trade, subject to the consultations which are pro-vided for under Clause 95(2), to lay down that these disciplinary committees are to be adopted here and now in this or that ship, regardless of the views of the owners, the master and the crew concerned. I am sure that that is not the intention at this stage and that we are only looking for experiments among par-ties who are willing to act as the guinea pigs in this important innovation. Per-
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haps the Minister could give the Committee an assurance on that point, in which case I should be pleased to with-draw the Amendment, at any rate at this stage.
LORD BROWN: We believe that the industry is well aware of the potential importance of these committees and is anxious—many parts of it, at any rate; the companies within it, and so on—to collaborate. It is certainly our intention in the operation of this clause to do everything possible to move only with the collaboration of seamen, shipowners and all parties to the formation of these committees. Of course, if we came up against a situation where there was an absolute blockage, which I think is extremely unlikely, we might have to use the powers, and I cannot commit the Government not to use them under this clause; but I am very hopeful that it will not be necessary. I hope that is a sufficient assurance.
LORD SANDFORD: It goes a long way, but it is not quite what I asked for or what I believe the Committee would like to have. I should have thought there was no point at all in enacting this clause if eventually the Board of Trade were not going to use the powers they had been given under it. What I think we are anxious about is that initially, during the experimental process which Pearson so clearly recommended, not merely should this be done with the collaboration of masters, shipowners and crews—because it cannot be done at all without their collaboration—but that the collaboration in the initial experiments should be a willing collaboration.
LORD BROWN: Certainly we should regard it as a bit of a disaster if we did not get that willing collaboration. That is the full intention—and I have discussed this with the officials concerned and everybody else. But no Minister can stand up here and commit himself to the fact that these powers will not be used in the initial stages. I do not think for one moment that they will be used at that stage, and I hope they will not be; but I cannot commit the Government not to do something which an Act gives them power to do. It may be necessary at later stages, after the experiments and if certain forms have worked out properly, to regularise the situation

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throughout a certain section of the ship-ping industry. I am sure that the noble Lord agrees that that is the purpose of the powers. But I cannot go further than that, and I think that that should be a sufficient assurance. The noble Lord knows our intentions.
LORD SANDFORD: That goes so, nearly all the way I was trying to get that I will certainly withdraw the Amendment at this stage. I do not think any-body could possibly object to the Board of Trade's eventually using the powers they have been given under this clause, once the system has been proved by experiments and we are making a wholesale changeover. All I was anxious to do was to secure that the experiments should be tentative, that initially we should start off with permissive regulations, and that the full force of these powers should not be used in the earlier stages. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 36 agreed to.
Clauses 37 to 41 agreed to.
Clause 42 [Trade disputes involving seamen]:
5.47 p.m.
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved Amendment No. 20:
Page 21, line 20, leave out from ("master") to first ("the") in line 21 and insert ("not less than forty-eight hours' notice of his intention to do so, and shall not be compelled (unless the notice is withdrawn) to go to sea in the forty-eight hours following the giving of such a notice; but such a notice shall be of no effect unless at the time it is given ")
The noble Lord said: Perhaps it would be convenient to the Committee if I spoke to Amendments Nos. 20 and 21 together. The purpose of these Amendments is to make it quite clear, in view of certain doubts which have been ex-pressed, that once a ship is securely moored in the United Kingdom in a safe berth and the seaman has given 48 hours' notice of his intention to withdraw his labour he cannot be compelled to go to sea again within the period of notice. We think it would be quite wrong if a master was able to frustrate the intentions of the clause by putting to sea within the period, taking the seaman with him, and so we have thought it
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right to make this explicit by these Amendments. I beg to move Amendment No. 20.
LORD SANDFORD: I shall be glad to accept this Amendment, but I cannot help commenting on the fact that it is odd such an enormous loophole in this clause should not have been discovered until this late stage. It is extraordinary to me that the Bill could have gone right through all stages in another place with-out this being revealed. It certainly seems that, without the Amendments, it would be possible for a master to do precisely as the noble Lord has suggested and frustrate the reasonable and proper rights of a seaman to strike in a ship which is securely moored within the United Kingdom. So we will certainly accept the Amendments. I think a good deal will hinge on the master's opinion as to whether or not his ship is securely moored, and perhaps the noble Lord will confirm that the master's opinion on that matter must be accepted and that there must be no argument about it, because he is responsible for the ship's safety; and that if, where there is a question of some doubt—perhaps a ship is at anchor lying off somewhere—the master says a ship is not securely moored, then that will invalidate the notice.
I should also like to raise the question of whether, if this clause is amended in this way, it will be possible to allow some sort of latitude or flexibility so that, within the 48 hours, the ship is able to get under way and proceed to another port in the United Kingdom. It seems to me to be not unreasonable that if the owners and the master have a notice of strike served upon them and it is practicable to proceed, for instance, to the final port of discharge, if at that moment they are discharging only part of their cargo, they should be enabled to proceed. There will be a difficulty in defining exactly what is meant by "leaving the United Kingdom". It will not be sufficient to say that that means remaining in territorial waters, because many ships are too big to get from one port to another in the United Kingdom with-out going outside territorial waters.
Before the Committee accept this Amendment—and I am sure that we shall do so on general grounds—I should be grateful if the noble Lord could say a

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word or two about the two points that I have mentioned. First, will he confirm that if the master gives it as his opinion that his ship is not securely moored, that opinion will not be challenged; and, secondly, will the noble Lord undertake to look into the question of whether it will be possible for the ship to proceed to sea during the 48 hours, on the under-standing that it is proceeding from one port to another in the United Kingdom and that it will be once again securely moored within the 48 hours of the notice.
LORD BROWN: I will deal with the first question, whether there are secure moorings and who is to be the arbiter of this. In the final analysis, of course, this is a matter to be determined by the court; but I should imagine that a court would be careful before denying the opinion of the master of the ship. The term "master" carries a certain responsibility for decisions of that kind. But, as I say, in the final analysis it is the court that must decide. The other question is much more difficult. I think I shall need time to consider that. If men give notice when the ship is moored and then leave it, the possibility of going to another port does not arise, because unless the master has a proper complement he will be outside the law in proceeding to sea. I think I should like notice of this question. A note that I have just received advises me that it will not be possible to sail with the seaman who has given notice—but, without him, yes. This, however, would give rise to the difficulties that I have already pointed out: unless the master has the proper complement of crew left, he will be in an illegal position in sailing.
LORD SANDFORD: If I could deal with the noble Lord's last point first, I should be happier with his assurance that he will look at this point again. It does not strike me as being an impracticable arrangement that, where a 48-hour strike notice is served on the master of a ship berthed in one port in the United Kingdom, that ship should be in a position to proceed to sea under notice to another port in the United Kingdom, pro-vided that that port can be reached in the 48 hours. That seems reasonable.
As to the first point, it may be a matter for the court eventually. But what we are dealing with is what hap-
206
pens within the next 48 hours where a notice to strike is served on the master of a ship which, in his opinion, is not securely moored. If he is correct in that assertion the notice is invalidated under this clause. That might be the subject of a court case subsequently. But the assurance I was seeking was that where the master takes the view that his ship is not securely moored he will be within his rights; that that opinion will not be open to challenge there and then; and that he will be within the law, for the time being, if he proceeds as though the notice were invalidated.
LORD BROWN: This is a matter which is not in the Bill; but there must be a large number of precedents for sup-porting the fact that the responsibility for the decision as to whether the ship is or is not in a safe position, lies with the master. This must be so. It is open to the crew to dispute it with the master if he tries to get out of the restrictions of a strike notice by saying that the ship is not securely moored. Then it will become a matter for the courts. There must be precedents for the master being the decisive factor in the matter.
LORD SANDFORD: Although it may be open to the crew to dispute the matter in due course, it is not open to the crew to dispute the matter there and then?
LORD BROWN: I should have thought that the noble Lord was correct in that statement, according to the precedents of a ship at sea.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BROWN: I beg to move Amendment No. 21 formally.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 22, leave out from ("berth") to end of line 25.—(Lord Brown.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 42, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 43 to 51 agreed to.
Clause 52 [Inquiry into fitness or con-duct of officer]:
On Question, Whether Clause 52 shall stand part of the Bill?
5.57 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD: I should like to say a word or two on Clause 52 which

207
deals with a new power conferred by this Bill on the Board of Trade to withdraw the certificate from an officer whose con-duct is such that an inquiry is to be held into it, or where something is being investigated, and who meanwhile is suspended from duty with his certificate held in suspension. This is a matter which was dealt with by Pearson at paragraph 194. Pearson took the view that this new power was in order and suitable and apt but that there was a difficulty. I quote from paragraph 194 of the Final Report of the Court of Inquiry into certain matters concerning the Shipping Industry:
"There is however this difficulty that, if an officer has had his certificate suspended but the decision of the Court is in his favour, it can be contended that it must be assumed that he is innocent and fit to discharge his duties and that he has been unjustly deprived of the opportunity of earning his livelihood. We think the only remedy is for the Court to have a discretionary power to order, in a suitable case, that the Board of Trade do indemnify the officer in respect of his loss of earnings. We think the Court should have that power, though the occasions for its exercise are likely to be few."
This matter was raised in another place at the Report stage (col. 1485), but it was not decided in the terms that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Pearson, recommended, and I think the Committee ought to be given the reasons why such a clear recommendation has not been followed. It is clear from Clause 52(5) that the costs ordered to be paid by such an officer may be recovered from him by the Board of Trade. That is one side. If the outcome of the matter is that he is innocent and fit to carry out his duties, I do not see why it should not be within the discretion of the court, as a matter of right, to award compensation to him for his loss of earnings; because an officer without a certificate is deprived of his employment.
LORD BROWN: In the first place, let us remember that the number of occasions on which this is likely to happen is extremely few. The noble Lord is aware that those who have been in prison, possibly for years, and are proved later to be innocent receive compensation; but it is ex gratia and not as of right. Were one to legislate in such a manner as to leave it open to those
208
officers who had been deprived of certificates and then found to be innocent to be able to secure damages for the period during which they were not able to be employed, one would have to provide for similar situations in a host of cases where the law occasionally inflicts similar damage on citizens. It would be impossible to initiate such a vast change in principle in a Bill of this sort on what would, in relation to all the other issues to which it would give rise, be a trivial issue—though I agree that it is not trivial to the officer concerned. For these reasons, it has not been found possible to agree with the Pearson Report recommendation that the officer should have a case for damages against the Crown. It would be a completely new precedent.
LORD SANDFORD: If the recommendation contained in the Pearson Report had been made by someone with no knowledge whatever of the law, the argument which the Minister has just used might carry some weight with me. But the noble and learned Lord, Lord Pearson, is not a person with no know-ledge of the law. Knowledgeable and eminent as he is in the law, he made that recommendation; and that being so, I should like a better explanation of why the recommendation has not been followed.
LORD PEARSON: I think I ought to say that this is not really a question of law. It is a question of constitutional policy, Government policy, financial policy; and I would not wish to enter into any dispute on a question of this kind. So far as the law is concerned, there is nothing to prevent your Lord-ships from putting a provision to this effect into the Bill. So far as the law is concerned, there is nothing to prevent Her Majesty's Government giving effect to it, but I recognise that there is a question of financial policy. It is a matter of what the further ramifications might be, and for myself, although that was the recommendation contained in the Report, I would not think it right to press it further because I think it is outside my sphere and in the sphere of a different expertise.
Clause 52 agreed to.
Clauses 53 to 61 agreed to.
Clause 62 [Relief and return of seamen left behind, etc.]:
6.3 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 22:
Page 30, line 33, leave out from ("Kingdom") to end of line 34 and insert—
("other than by reason that he has—

(i) been arrested or imprisoned for misconduct; or

(ii) absented himself from the ship without leave at the time appointed for sailing; or

() a person so employed is taken to such a country on being shipwrecked; or").
The noble Lord said: We now move to an entirely new matter, the costs of the relief and return of seamen left behind abroad. This subject was covered by the Pearson Report, and the recommendations relating to it are Nos. (4)(h) and (4)(i), but the particular matter to which my Amendment refers is covered by a part of paragraph 277 which appears at the bottom of page 79 of the Report, to which I will allude again in a moment.
The question as to who should bear the cost of maintaining a seaman who has been left behind abroad, and eventually repatriate him, is a matter containing some complexities, not all of which we need to go into. It was considered fully in the Pearson Committee and debated in another place. The point of my Amendment is to secure that no further charge should be imposed by Statute on British shipowners that is not also borne by their competitors in shipping lines in other countries. That is the point which Pearson makes emphatically at the bottom of page 79, where it stales:
"It is important that the British shipping industry should not have imposed on it any burden which is not borne by foreign competitors."
If Her Majesty's Government wish to adjust their policy in this respect, in my view they must first secure an inter-national agreement to that effect. I believe that no maritime country imposes an obligation on its shipowners, as pro-posed here, to meet the whole cost of maintaining and repatriating seamen left behind as deserters or offenders. In default of an international agreement, I believe that the situation should be safe-guarded in the way which would be secured by my Amendment.
I have a list of the other big maritime countries, and in not a single case are their arrangements such as would be introduced were this clause unamended. Denmark has the same arrangement as we have now, and shipowners are not bound; in Norway the owners are not responsible; in Sweden shipowners are not liable; in Holland a deserter is liable; in Liberia the seaman has to pay; in France the seaman has to pay; in Japan there are no provisions and the effect is that the seaman has to pay; in Germany the consul can instruct a German vessel to carry the seaman home and he is then charged and if found guilty has to reimburse the Republic; in Belgium the charges are recovered from the seaman; in the United States the seaman forfeits the balance of his wages and the consul pays the cost of subsistence and repatriation. So in no other maritime country is this cost borne in the way here proposed. Unless and until the Government can secure an international agreement in terms which would ensure that ship-owners in every country bear the liability it is proposed to put on British ship-owners, I suggest that the position should be safeguarded in terms similar to those proposed in my Amendment. I beg to move.
LORD BROWN: As a result of the moving of this Amendment the choice before us, in respect of seamen overseas who have been in prison for misconduct or are absent without leave, is placing the liability which arises from their repatriation or their keep on the employer, who would have a possible course of action against the seaman, as in the Bill, or placing the liability on the State and the seaman, as in the Amendment. That is what it boils down to; someone has to get him home, and pay for it, too. The possibility of the State getting money out of the seaman, when it does not hold any of his money, is rather remote.
This is a debatable matter, as the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, recognises. I do not see why the industry should not have to bear the responsibility; I do not think that the State should have to do so. Responsibilities of a like kind are incurred by industry. If this were an enormous burden on the shipping industry, we might have had to reconsider the Government's attitude; but I am told that the amount involved is probably of the order of £20,000 to £30,000 a year for

211
the entire industry. The present means of collecting the sums due are extra-ordinarily complex, extremely expensive and relatively ineffective. Were it not for the fact that, as a matter of principle, it is necessary to proceed against people for liabilities of this kind, it would be a totally unremunerative occupation. After considering the matter very care-fully, and recognising that there is some justice in the arguments from the other side, our view is that it is fitting, in all the circumstances, that the industry should be asked to carry these expenses. That is why I am inviting your Lordships to reject the Amendment. At the same time I admit that there is some justice in the plea that has been made by the noble Lord, Lord Sandford.
LORD HAWKE: I think the noble Lord said that a shipowner has some recourse against a seaman. Would the noble Lord tell me exactly where that appears?
LORD BROWN: I can assure the noble Lord that there is recourse, but I am not quite sure that I can point to it immediately. Only this morning I inquired, to reassure myself. Would the noble Lord be content if I informed him later that there is this recourse?

CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

Drumalbyn, L.

Mersey, V.

Ailwyn, L.

Dundee, E.

Milverton, L.

Albemarle, E.

Ebbisham, L.

Mowbray and Stourton, L.

Allerton, L.

Elliot of Harwood, Bs.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

Atholl, D.

Emmet of Amberley, Bs.

Nunburnholme, L.

Balerno, L.

Erroll of Hale, L.

Oakshott, L.

Barnby, L.

Ferrier, L.

Pearson, L.

Beauchamp, E.

Goschen, V. [Teller.]

Rankeillour, L.

Berkeley, Bs.

Grantchester, L.

Rowallan, L.

Bessborough, E.

Gridley, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Brooke of Cumnor, L.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

St. Oswald, L.

Brooke of Ystradfellte, Bs.

Guest, L.

Sandford, L.

Burton, L.

Hawke, L.

Sempill, Ly.

Carnock, L.

Henley, L.

Strange of Knokin, Bs.

Conesford, L.

Ilford, L.

Strathclyde, L.

Crawshaw, L.

Inglewood, L.

Teviot, L.

Cromartie, E.

Jellicoe, E.

Thurlow, L.

Daventry, V.

Lauderdale, E.

Vivian, L.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

NOT-CONTENTS

Ardwick, L.

Hughes, L.

St. Davids, V.

Aylestone, L.

Hurcomb, L.

Segal, L.

Blyton, L.

Leatherland, L.

Snow, L.

Bowles, L.

Lindgren, L.

Stocks, Bs.

Brown, L.

Maelor, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Burden, L.

Phillips, Bs. [Teller.]

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Gardiner, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Raglan, L.

Wilson of Langside, L.

Granville of Eye, L.

Ritchie-Calder, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

Hilton of Upton, L. [Teller.]

Royle, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
LORD HAWKE: I will take the noble Lord's word.
LORD SANDFORD: The Minister admits that there is some force in this argument. I think that there is a great deal of force in it and, if I may say so, not a great deal of force in his counter-argument. It may well be that the sums involved are not very great. If they are not very great in comparison with the resources of the shipping industry, they are not very great in comparison with the resources of the Treasury. But this is a matter of principle. It may be that it is difficult to collect these sums, but every one of the 11 maritime countries whose names I read out have found one way or another of surmounting this difficulty, and not a single one proposes to adopt the unfair, unjust and inequitable proposition now put before us in Clause 62, in flat contradiction to what is recommended by Pearson. In these circumstances, I feel obliged to press this Amendment to a Division.
6.12 p.m.
On Question: Whether the said Amendment (No. 22) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships Divided: Contents, 55; Not-Contents, 26.
Clause 62, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 63 agreed to.
Clause 64 [Recovery of expenses incurred for relief and return, etc.]:
6.22 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD LORD SANDFORD moved Amendment No. 23:
Page 32, line 13, leave out from ("employers") to end of line 17 and insert ("If he proves that it was not a term of his employment that they were to be borne by him and that he was not left behind as a result of his own wrongful act or neglect.")
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 23, which deals with the recovery of expenses incurred for relief and maintenance. The purpose of the Amendment requires hardly any explanation. It is merely to shift the onus of proof on to the shoulders where I am sure it should belong.
LORD BROWN: I do not think that there are sufficient grounds for amending this clause. Clause 64(1)(a) and (b) deals with the rather unlikely event that, after a seaman who is left behind reports him-self to the ship's agent or to the proper officer and consequently, as we envisage the regulations, the employer's liability to maintain him commences, he is left to look after himself, or told to do so, and incurs expense which under Clause 62 is the proper responsibility of the employer. I must emphasise that it is only when there is such a responsibility that the subsection will operate, and we do not envisage that any such obligation could be incurred before the seaman reports to his employers or their agents. In that case, given that the seaman can show that he has incurred the expenses and that they come within the regulations, I think that prima facie the employer should be liable to repay him.
The employer may have a claim against the seaman under Clause 62 for the expense of discharging his responsibility if there has been a breach of contract or if the terms of employment provide for it. This is the employer's claim, and in any proceedings for recovery by the seaman of his expenses it should, in my view, be for the employer to prove his claim. It would not, in my view, be possible to follow precisely in this context the rules as to burden of proof applicable to breaches of contract of employment
214
which are subject, for instance, to the special rule in Clause 39. On these grounds, I think it unimportant to pass this Amendment. I suggest that it is proper to leave the burden of proof with the employer, and that the Amendment should be rejected.
LORD SANDFORD: I am not sure about that, but I shall be happy to look at it between now and the next stage of the Bill. The noble Lord has given a full reply, and I should not like to decide here and now what attitude to take about it. In any case, having secured the point on Clause 62, I do not want to be greedy. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 64 agreed to.
Clauses 65 to 71 agreed to.
Clause 72 [Returns of births and deaths in ships, etc.]:
LORD BROWN: Amendment No. 24 is a drafting Amendment. The Bill as it stands at present refers to the Registrar General of Births, Deaths and Marriages in Scotland. This is not his correct title, and the Amendment changes it to,
"the Registrar General of Births, Deaths and Marriages for Scotland".
I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 37, line 7, leave out ("in") and insert ("for").—(Lord Brown.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved Amendment No. 25:
Page 37, line 14, at end insert ("and the enactments relating to the registration of births and deaths in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, shall have effect as if the marine register were a register of births (other than still-births) or deaths or certified copies of entries in such a register and had been transmitted to the Registrar General in accordance with those enactments.")
The noble Lord said: I think it would be convenient to discuss with this Amendment, Amendment No. 38, to Schedule 3. The purpose of these Amendments is to ensure that entries in the marine register shall still have the same status as entries in the ordinary register of births and deaths kept in, for instance, Somerset House. This is the case at the moment, and it is desirable for the sake of simplicity of administration that it should

215
remain possible, as it is now, to issue certificates from the marine register book on the same terms as ordinary certificates of births and deaths. Such a certificate would be received as evidence, without the need for further proof, of the entry to which it refers; the same fee could also be charged for the issue of a certificate. The Amendment, therefore, merely seeks to correct an omission in the Bill and so restore the status quo. I beg to move
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 72, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 73 to 84 agreed to.
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved Amendment No. 26:
After Clause 84, insert the following new clause:
Amendment of Merchant Shipping (Safety Convention) Act 1949
".—(1) For sections 3 and 6 of the Merchant Shipping (Safety Convention) Act 1949 there shall be substituted the sections set out in Schedule (sections substituted for sections 3 and 6 of the Merchant Shipping (Safety Convention) Act 1949) to this Act.
(2) In section 5(2) of that Act (rules for direction finders) the words ' being ships of sixteen hundred tons gross tonnage or up-wards ' shall be omitted."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment introduces a new clause into the Bill, and I have a great deal of technical comment on it embodied in my notes. I propose, with your Lordships' leave, to deal with Amendments Nos. 26 and 34 together, and to deal with them in what I would call operational terms rather than legal terms, because I think in that way they are simpler to understand. The new clause amends the Safety Convention Act 1949. There are two bodies, one an inter-Governmental maritime consultative organisation, which produced a convention referred to as SOLAS—that is, Saving of Lives at Sea. It is now proposed to amend SOLAS, and amendments are being considered and going through. The Board of Trade's existing powers do not make it possible to initiate the Amendments which are under consideration as part of SOLAS: the new powers involved in this new clause will.
These new proposals arising from the SOLAS Convention amendments will, or may, call for V.H.F. radiotelephone for safety of navigation of foreign ships,
216
and not only of British ships, in United Kingdom waters. Owing to the crowded state of the waters around our shores it has become necessary to consider insisting on this for ships other than our own; also radar on ships over 1,600 tons. Further discussion may lead to ships of over 300 tons having to carry radio direction-finders. The present limit is 1,600 tons. Radio telegraph ships may be required to keep watch on radiotelephone distress frequencies for further safety at sea. Those are the likely SOLAS recommendations.
There is also a series of recommendations for safety arising out of the Holland Martin Report, and whether or not the Government accept them is a matter for consideration; but the Government are likely to accept them. They call for distant-water trawlers of over 140 feet in length to continue to have radiotelephone, and to keep watch on distress frequencies; and those operating beyond radiotelephone range also should carry radiotelegraphy and an operator. They also call for the radiotelephone to become obligatory on near and middle water trawlers. Lastly, a generating device for radiotelephone alarm signals and a loudspeaker watch-keeping receiver may become compulsory in all trawlers. We may wish to implement that whole range of additional safety regulations, and it is highly probable that we shall. At the moment, we do not have the powers to do so. The whole intent of these two Amendments is to provide the Board of Trade with the powers to implement those safety regulations. I beg to move.
LORD SANDFORD: I had supposed that this Amendment arose from I.M.C.O., and I certainly agree with the noble Lord that it might be convenient and speed up our proceedings if we discussed his Amendment No. 34 at the same time. It is on that second Amendment that I should like to put a point to him. As he said, the effect of all this will be to require further equipment, and additions to crew, all of which will cost money, in the ships to which all this applies. It therefore seems to me particularly important that the regulations drawn up should be the subject of consultation within the industry.
But, by something which I think can be only a curious quirk, his new

217
Schedule (Amendment No. 34), entitled "Radio Rules", authorises the Board of Trade to make rules. That is reason-able and necessary. But Clause 95(2), which has been put in the Bill to ensure that the regulations which the Board of Trade are going to make under this Act are made only after consultation, contains nothing that would put the making of rules under the same constraint. I should be grateful if the noble Lord could assure the Committee that the making of these radio rules under Amendment No. 34 will be subject to the same consultations as the rest of the regulations, and would let us know what sort of Amendment he proposes to introduce, in due course, to give effect to that. I shall quite under-stand if the noble Lord prefers to answer that point when we reach Amendment No. 34, and leave the matter for the moment while we are discussing Amendment No. 26.
LORD BROWN: It would be conveni-ent if I answered the noble Lord now. The noble Lord was good enough to give me notice of this point. Unfortunately, I have not taken proper advantage of the notice he gave me because I have been rather busy on this Bill. I am advised that the omission was deliberate; that is to say, it was felt (for reasons which at present I do not entirely understand) that the rules do not require consultation. I should like to go further into this matter. As I stand here, I am concerned to know more about the reasons why it is felt on the part of officials that rules do not require consultation. There may be a good case for this, but I cannot give it to the noble Lord at the moment, and I am not going to attempt to convince him because I am not convinced myself. Per-haps he could leave this matter with me to come back to in due course. I do not think the point arises under the Amendment, but it is relevant to it.
LORD SANDFORD: I am sure the Committee will be grateful to the noble Lord, but totally unconvinced that the radio rules do not involve consultation: because, on the face of it, they certainly do, since their implementation will involve additional heavy expenditure by shipowners, so far as I can see. However, I am happy to wait until the next stage to be reassured on this point.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
6.35 p.m.
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved Amendment No. 27:
After Clause 84, insert the following new clause:
Nautical publications
".—(1) The Board of Trade may make rules specifying such charts, directions or information as appear to the Board necessary or expedient for the safe operation of ships and those rules may require ships registered in the United Kingdom, or such descriptions of ships registered in the United Kingdom as may be specified in the rules, to carry, either at all times or on such voyages as may be specified in the rules, copies of the charts, directions or information so specified.
(2) If a ship goes to sea or attempts to go to sea without carrying copies of the charts, directions or information which it is required to carry by rules under this section the master or owner shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £100."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment seeks to enable the Board of Trade to require ships to carry specified charts, directions or other information for the purposes of safe navigation. Oddly, we have no powers at present to do so. The Intergovernmental Maritime Consultative Organisation (IMCO), an agency of the United Nations, has recently put forward proposals for amendment of the Safety of Life at Sea Convention 1960, to which the United Kingdom adheres, calling for a requirement in these terms. We would wish to be able to implement this Amendment in due course, and the necessary powers would be given by this, Amendment of the Bill which I commend to your Lordships. I beg to move.
LORD SANDFORD: I would make much the same remarks on this Amendment which I used before. We want to be assured that the rules—which is the term used in this new clause—are subject to the same kind of consultation as before.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 85 agreed to.
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved Amendment No. 28:
After Clause 85, insert the following new clause:
Increase of penalty for sailing while ship under detention
" . In section 692(1) of the Merchant Ship-ping Act 1894 (enforcing detention of ship) for the words 'one hundred pounds' there shall be substituted the words ' two hundred pounds'."
The noble Lord said: In Clause 45 of the Bill, which prohibits ships going to sea undermanned, the maximum penalty provided is a fine of £200 and, in addition, there is provision for the ship to be detained. However, Section 692(1) of the Merchant Shipping Act 1894, which deals with the enforcement of such detention, carries a maximum penalty of only £100 if the ship puts to sea in defiance of a detention notice or order. It would, I suggest, be inconsistent to have a maximum fine for contravention of detention which was lower than the maximum fine for going to sea undermanned. The greater offence would be punishable by the lesser penalty. I therefore propose that the maximum penalty under Section 692(1) shall be increased from £100 to £200.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 86 and 87 agreed to.
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved Amendment No. 29:
After Clause 87, insert the following new clause:
Tonnage measurement and certificates
".For subsections (5) and (6) of section 1 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1965 (tonnage regulations) there shall be substituted the following subsections—
'(5) Regulations under this section may make provision for the alteration (not-withstanding section 82 of the principal Act) of the particulars relating to the registered tonnage of a ship.
(6) Regulations under this section may pro-vide for the issue by the Board of Trade or by persons appointed by such organisations as may be authorised in that behalf by the Board of Trade of certificates of the registered tonnage of any ship or of the tonnage which is to be taken for any purpose specified in the regulations as the tonnage of a ship not registered in the United Kingdom, and for the cancellation and delivery up of such certificates in such circumstances as may be prescribed by the regulations.
(6A) Regulations under this section requiring the delivery up of any certificate may make a failure to comply with the requirement an offence punishable on summary conviction with a fine not exceeding £100.'"
The noble Lord said: Most of the relevant existing statutory powers about the measurement of ships' tonnage are contained in the Merchant Shipping Act 1965, but they are not sufficient to enable Her Majesty's Government to comply
220
with certain provisions of the 1969 Convention. It is desirable that the Government should be able to ratify this Convention, which is the result of many years' work on the part of maritime countries to agree on a simplified system of tonnage measurement to replace the five different and complicated systems at present in use. The proposal to widen Section 1(6) of the 1965 Act by this new clause will enable the Board of Trade to authorise other organisations to appoint persons to issue tonnage certificates, which the Board cannot do under its existing powers.
It will also enable the Board to provide in regulations for the cancellation and surrender of certificates. This becomes necessary under Article 10(1) of the Convention if alterations to a ship result in an increase in its tonnage. Power to alter the particulars of a ship's registered tonnage when the need arises is also necessary. The Board has a limited power to do this under Section 1(5) of the 1965 Act, but it is confined to ships registered before regulations made under that Act came into force, and the pro-posed widening of Section 1(5) will remove this restriction. The new clause will enable regulations to require that cancelled certificates shall be delivered up, and consequently it is necessary to provide for a penalty to be prescribed for non-compliance with this requirement. The new subsection (6A) contains this power. It is not the Government's intention to ratify the Convention until the shipping industry and all other interested bodies have been consulted. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 88 agreed to.
Clause 89 [Ships registered in independent Commonwealth countries]:
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved Amendment No. 30:
Page 42. line 21, leave out from ("specified ") to first ("and ") in line 22.
The noble Lord said: I hope it will be convenient if I take Amendment No. 31 with Amendment No. 30. The intention of these Amendments is to provide that the power given in the clause for certain provisions of the Bill to be applied by Order-in-Council to ships registered in Commonwealth countries should

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not be restricted to when these ships are within the United Kingdom. The clause, if amended, would in fact keep the position very much as it is now under the present Acts. It is not intended that the powers conferred by the clause would be used in a very wide fashion, and certainly not without the agreement of the Commonwealth country concerned.
One example of the sort of situation which could arise is when, say, a Commonwealth registered ship was engaged in United Kingdom coastal trade and an act was committed on the high seas which would be an offence under Clause 27 of misconduct endangering the ship. It would not be possible without this Amendment to prosecute the offender (because the ship was not registered in the United Kingdom) and there may not be a comparable offence punishable under the legislation of the country of registration. A Commonwealth registered ship is still a "British ship" and we do not think that it would be a desirable state of affairs for a British ship to be thus outside the scope of the law if it is trading between or from ports in the United Kingdom. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BROWN: I beg to move Amendment No. 31.
Amendment moved—
Page 42, line 22, leave out ("then").—(Lord Brown.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 89, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 90 agreed to.
Clause 91 [Fishing vessels]:
6.45 p.m.
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved Amendment No. 32:
Page 43, line 26, at end insert—
(" () Nothing in section 11 of this Act shall affect the operation of Part II of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 in relation to wages due to a person employed in a fishing vessel; and the provisions of the Magistrates' Courts Act (Northern Ireland) 1964 and the Judgments (Enforcement) Act (Northern Ireland) 1969 relating to the attachment of wages shall apply in relation to such wages as they apply in relation to other wages.").
The noble Lord said: This Amendment is related to some later consequential Amendments to Schedules 3 and 4,
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and Amendments Nos. 39 and 44, and it is designed to prevent Clause 11 from affecting the application of Part II of the Administration of Justice Bill, which has already been before your Lordships' House, to fishermen's wages. It is in essence a consequential Amendment to the provisions of that Bill.
Clause 11(1), which substantially re-enacts Section 163(1) of the 1895 Act, provides that the wages of a seaman employed in a United Kingdom registered ship shall not be subject to attachment or arrestment; that is to say, a sea-man's wages shall not be subject to a form of court proceedings known as "attachment" to seize his wages, et cetera. But we must now take into account the provisions of the Administration of Justice Bill, Part II of which makes new provisions in relation to the enforcement of civil debts generally. It abolishes the penalty of imprisonment for defaulting debtors and substitutes a power in the courts to make attachment of earnings orders to secure the payment of a civil debt.
These provisions will apply to fisher-men under the new procedure in that Bill, as hitherto they have applied in a broadly similar manner in relation to maintenance orders under Part II of the Maintenance Orders Act 1958. But, by virtue of Clause 22(2)(e), the exclusion of merchant seamen's wages will continue to be preserved. As a consequence of these provisions of the Administration of Justice Bill, Amendments to our present Bill are necessary to prevent any conflict with Clause 11. This Amendment provides that nothing in Clause 11 shall affect the operation of Part II of the Administration of Justice Bill in relation to a fisherman's wages. It also makes consequential applications in relation to certain Northern Ireland Statutes. I am sorry to burden noble Lords with such long and complex clauses. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 91, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 92 agreed to.
Clause 93 [Interpretation]:
LORD BROWN: I will try to deal with Amendment No. 33 rapidly. The term "left behind" is used in the Bill. This

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would normally have the connotation that a ship had left the port where a seaman was. But he can be, so to speak, left behind when the ship is still in the port where he is if the ship is wrecked or if its engines have collapsed, and so on. The purpose of this Amendment is to make it clear that he can be "left behind" without the ship's having left the port. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 44, line 36, at end insert—
(" () For the purposes of this Act a sea-man discharged from a ship in any country and left there shall be deemed to be left behind in that country notwithstanding that the ship also remains there.")—(Lord Brown.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 93, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
LORD BROWN: I beg to move Amendment No. 34.
Amendment moved—
Before Schedule 1, insert the following new Schedule—
"SECTIONS SUHSTITUTED FOR SECTIONS 3 AND 6 OF MERCHANT SHIPPING (SAFETY CON-VENTION) ACT 1949
Radio rules
3.—(1) The Board of Trade may make rules (in this Act called "radio rules ") requiring ships to which this section applies to be provided with radio equipment of such a nature (but not including a radio navigational aid) as may be prescribed by the rules and to maintain such a radio service and to carry such number of radio officers or operators, of such grades and possessing such qualifications, as may be so prescribed; and the rules may contain provisions for preventing so far as practicable electrical interference by other apparatus on board with the equipment pro-vided under the rules.
(2) This section applies to—

(a) sea-going ships registered in the United Kingdom;

(b) other sea-going ships while they are in the United Kingdom or the territorial waters thereof.

(3) Radio rules shall include such requirements as appear to the Board of Trade to implement the provisions of the Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea signed in London on 17th June. 1960 as from time to time amended, so far as those provisions relate to radio telegraphy and radio telephony.
(4) Without prejudice to the generality of the preceding provisions of this section, radio rules may—
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(a) prescribe the duties of radio officers and operators, including the duty of keeping a radio log-book;

(b) apply to any radio log-book required to be kept under the rules any of the pro-visions of any regulations with respect to official log-books made under section 68 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1970.

(5) If any radio officer or operator contravenes any rules made in pursuance of sub-section (4)(a) of this section, he shall be liable to a fine not exceeding £10; and if radio rules are contravened in any other respect in relation to any ship, the owner or master of the ship shall be liable on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding £500. or on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £100.
(6) A surveyor of ships may inspect any ship for the purpose of seeing that she is properly provided with radio equipment and radio officers or operators in conformity with radio rules and for that purpose shall have all the powers of a Board of Trade inspector under the Merchant Shipping Acts.
(7) If a ship to which this section applies is not provided with radio equipment or radio officers or operators in conformity with radio rules the ship, if in the United Kingdom, may be detained.
Radio navigational aids
6.—(1) The Board of Trade may make rules—

(a) requiring ships to which this section applies to be provided with such radio navigational aids, other than direction-finders, as may be specified in the rules and pre-scribing requirements which such radio navigational aids are to comply with;

(b) prescribing requirements which radio navigational aids, other than direction-finders and other than such as are provided in pursuance of rules made under the preceding paragraph, are to comply with when carried in ships to which this section applies;

(c) prescribing requirements which apparatus designed for the purpose of transmitting or reflecting signals to or from radio navigational aids is to comply with if it is apparatus in the United Kingdom or apparatus off the shores of the United Kingdom but maintained from the United Kingdom;

and the requirements prescribed under paragraph (a) or (b) of this subsection may include requirements relating to the position and method of fitting of the radio navigational aids.
(2) This section applies to—

(a) ships registered in the United Kingdom;

(b) other ships while they are within any port in the United Kingdom.

(3) If a ship to which this section applies proceeds, or attempts to proceed, to sea without carrying such navigational aids as it is required to carry by rules made under subsection (1) of this section or carrying radio navigational aids not complying with rules made under that subsection, the owner or master of the ship

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shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £100.
(4) If any person establishes or operates any such apparatus as is mentioned in subsection (l)(c) of this section and the apparatus does not comply with rules made there under, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fire not exceeding £100."—(Lord Brown.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 1 agreed to.
Schedule 2 [Minor and Consequential Amendments]:
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved Amendment No. 35:
Page 49, leave out lines 8 to 13.
The noble Lord said: I am sorry to burden your Lordships with what is to follow but the statement had better go on the Record. This Amendment is consequential on Amendment No. 34, the new Schedule before Schedule No. 1 which we have just passed, the effect of which is to replace Section 3 of the Merchant Shipping (Safety Convention) Act 1949 by a new section conferring on the Board of Trade extended powers to make radio rules. The present Section 3 of the Act contains provision in sub-section (5)(b) relating to radio log books. Clause 68 of the Bill makes provisions relating to official log books and empowers the Board to make regulations regarding them. This necessitated appropriate amendments to Section 3(5)(b). which have been effected by paragraph 10 of this Schedule 2. However, these amendments in turn have been overtaken and made unnecessary by the provisions of subsection (4)(b) of the new Section 3. Paragraph 10 is therefore to be omitted. I beg to move.
LORD SANDFORD: That explanation certainly sounds convincing, but I should like to reserve my position until I have had an opportunity of looking at it rather carefully, as it relates to the other matters which I raised previously.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved Amendment No. 36:
Page 49, line 13, at end insert:
(" The Merchant Shipping Act 1964
. In section 10(2) of the Merchant Ship-ping Act 1964 for the words "(7) and (8)" there shall be substituted the words "(6) and (7) ".")
The noble Lord said: This Amendment is consequential on Amendment No. 26. It is a reference to the numbering of sections. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved Amendment No. 37:
Page 49, line 32, at end insert:
(" The Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1970
14. In section 414(1) of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1970 the word ' or' shall be added at the end of paragraph (a), and paragraph (c) and the word 'or' pre-ceding it shall be omitted ".)
The noble Lord said: This is a minor and consequential Amendment to Section 414(1) of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1970. That Act, which is a Consolidation Act, provides in Section 414(1) that, in effect, interest up to £15 on deposits with the National Savings Bank and with a seamen's savings bank shall be free of income tax. Sections 148 to 153 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1894, which relate to seamen's savings banks, are being repealed by the Bill. The references in the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1970 to these banks therefore become unnecessary, and they are consequently being deleted. Provision is made in paragraph 3 of Schedule 3 for the repayment of deposits and for the transfer of unrepaid deposits into the National Savings Bank. Interest up to £15 will continue, as previously, to be tax-free, so that the depositor's tax position will remain unaffected. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 3 [Savings and Transitional Provisions]:
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN: I beg to move Amendment No. 38.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 8, at end insert—
(" . The repeal by this Act of section 254 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1894 shall not affect the operation of that section in relation to any return made under it and any marine register book kept under that section shall be treated as part of a marine register kept under section 72 of this Act.").—(Lord Brown.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN: I beg to move Amendment No. 39.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 11, leave out paragraph 5.— (Lord Brown.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 3, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 4 [Enactments Repealed]
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: Before I call the next Amendment there is a question in regard to the printing. Noble Lords will notice that in Amendment No. 40 reference is made to page 51, line 36, but it should be "line 35". Also, instead of paragraph "(c)" it should read "(e)".
LORD BROWN LORD BROWN moved Amendment No. 40:
Page 51, line 35, leave out ("paragraphs (a) and (e)") and insert ("paragraph (a), in paragraph (b) the words from "and the remuneration" to the end of the paragraph, and paragraph (e)").
The noble Lord said: This is a minor Amendment to correct an omission from the Repeals Schedule. We inadvertently omitted to repeal a reference to the remuneration of medical inspectors in paragraph (b) of Section 677 of the 1894 Act. This reference is no longer needed, as any such inspections will be undertaken by the officers of the Board of Trade. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SANDFORD: I only rise to say that unless the Minister has something of great note and weight that he would like to mention in regard to any of his succeeding Amendments I should think the Committee would be happy to have them moved en bloc.
LORD BROWN: I beg to move Amendments Nos. 41 to 46.
Amendments moved—
Page 52, line 27, after ("(c)") insert ("the word "or" preceding subsection (1)(b)").
Page 52, line 34, at end insert—

"24 & 25 Geo. 5. c. 18.

The Illegal Trawling (Scotland Act 1934.

In section 6 the words 'mercantile marine office'.")

Page 53, line 6, column 3, at end insert—
("In section 5(2) the words "being ships of sixteen hundred tons gross tonnage or upwards".")
Page 53, leave out lines 22 to 26.
Page 53, line 28, at end insert—

("1964 c.47

The Merchant Shipping Act 1964.

Section 11."

Page 54, line 18, at end insert—

("1970 c. 10.

The Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1970.

In section 414, in subsection (1), paragraph (c) and word 'or' preceding that paragraph, and in subsection (7) the definition of 'seamen's savings bank'.")

—(Lord Brown

On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Schedule 4, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported, with Amendments.

TELEVISION ACT 1964 (ADDITIONAL PAYMENTS) ORDER 1970
6.58 p.m.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I beg to move that the Television Act 1964 (Additional Payments) Order 1970, a draft of which was laid before this House on March 17, be approved.
The Television Act 1963 (and the Consolidating Act of 1964) introduced a new system of securing for the public purse a share in the income which independent television programme contractors enjoy from the right to benefit from an asset at public disposal; namely, the contracts granted by the Independent Television Authority. The additional rental payments which the contractors are to make to the Authority under this new system are paid to the Authority, who are required in turn to pay into the Consolidated Fund. The Act provided a scale of rates at which this so-called levy was payable. The rate payable is increased according to the amount of a contractor's advertising receipts.
Under the Act, the Postmaster General, now the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications, was empowered to change the scale of the levy by Statutory Instrument, made with the approval of the Treasury, and after consultation with the Authority; any such Instrument having first been laid in draft and approved by a Resolution of each House of Parliament. In June, 1969, my right honourable friend made an Order designed on

229
estimates then current to have the effect of increasing the yield of the levy by £3 million in a full year. The present draft Order would introduce a new scale which on present estimates will so reduce the yield by £6 million in a full year. The present Act runs until 1976. This is not, I suggest, the time to debate that Act. The principle that there should be a levy, chargeable upon the contractors' income has been accepted by both sides of Parliament.
The new scale set out in the draft Order has been decided by my right honourable friend to meet a changed situation. At the time of the increase made in the 1969 Order, the profits before tax for the three years ending 1967–68, taking The companies as a whole, had been running at well over 40 per cent. on capital employed. However, in the debate in another place on the 1969 Order my right honourable friend the Postmaster General gave a pledge, which my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal repeated in this House when your Lordships debated the Order on June 24. The pledge was that if the worst fears of the independent television contractors, as expressed to us, were realised, we should be ready to consider making a further Order reducing the impact of the charge. The contractors had forecast to my right honourable friend that during the current contract year their profits would decline sharply as a result of rising costs.
The turn of events led the Independent Television Authority to represent to my right honourable friend at the end of January of this year that there should be a substantial reduction in the amount of the levy. My right honourable friend naturally went into the Authority's, case fully with the noble Lord, Lord Aylestone, and his colleagues on the Authority. His conclusion was that not only were the companies faced with steeply increasing costs, but also that their advertising receipts were far less than anyone had been able to foresee. From £101·5 million in the twelve months ending with April, 1969, the total advertising receipts now look like falling to £93 million in the current contract year ending on July 29, 1970. Some of the smaller companies had found themselves doing even worse than that. It would not be right for me to give confidential figures, but the particular difficulties of Scottish Television,
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one of the smallest of the regional companies, have become well known. The problem was not unique to these companies and, in varying degrees, was being experienced by the industry across the board. Her Majesty's Government there-fore decided upon the reduction which my right honourable friend announced on March 16, less than two months after receiving the Authority's case.
This conclusion does not of course mean that the independent television com-panies are relieved in future of the need to meet rising costs so far as possible by improved efficiency in the conduct of their operations. I believe that the industry will benefit greatly from the reference which the First Secretary of State and the Minister made at the end of last month of the costs and revenues of the companies to the National Board for Prices and Incomes. The aim of the reference to the N.B.P.I. is to obtain the Board's advice on the economy and efficiency with which the operations of the companies are conducted. There have been substantial changes in patterns of costs and revenues. The Government therefore consider that examination by the N.B.P.I. would throw valuable light on the policies and practice of an indutry which is subject to highly emotional judgments.
The new scale in the Order has been agreed between the Government and the Authority as the most appropriate way of distributing the reduction of £6 million. The four smallest companies—Border Television, Grampian Television, West-ward Television, and Ulster Television— will, as their advertising receipts do not exceed £2 million, no longer have to pay the levy at all. This is of course the biggest reduction those companies can be given. Medium-sized companies will, if their income reaches £9 million, pay nearly £600,000 less. The largest companies, if their receipts reached £16 million, will pay nearly £800,000 less. The amount of the relief given to the larger companies is of course greater than that given to the smaller companies, but in proportion to their commitments the amount of capital they need to employ to fulfil their contract obligations, and the amount of money they need to spend on producing programmes, is far smaller. The Government have shown a timely response to the problems presented to

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them and have acted much sooner than some thought possible. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Draft Television Act 1964 (Additional Payments) Order 1970, laid before the House on March 17, be approved.—(Lord Beswick.)
7.6 p.m.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, we must thank the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, for explaining this Order to us this evening. I made the views of those on this side of the House regarding the levy abundantly clear in our last debate on broadcasting, which took place after the increase in the levy announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in April last year. The increase then amounted to approximately £3 million, and the decrease in the levy announced by the Minister on March 16 this year was £6 million. So in fact the real reduction, the net reduction, I think I am right in saying, is only one of about £3 million. It is perfectly true that the regional companies benefit proportionately more than the major companies, but the relief was clearly necessary to save some of the smaller companies from extinction. It does mean, however, that the major companies, which provide the basic network on which the regional companies depend, have received only marginal relief. At the same time there has been, as I think the noble Lord knows, a drop in the overall annual expenditure on all types of advertising, including the revenue of Independent Television, and this certainly exacerbates the situation.
We should also remember that the total cost to Independent Television of con-version to colour is likely to be not less that £25 million, and that the annual cost of servicing this capital sum is there-fore approximately £2½ million. I gather that the cost of actual working in colour has not yet been fully determined but that it has been calculated to be approximately £5 million per annum, plus £4 million for depreciation All the costs within
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Independent Television have been rising steadily. The costs of running Independent Television News, for example, have mounted by £1·1 million in three years.
While I think that we on this side of the House should welcome this interim relief, it seems to me that if the industry is to prosper fundamental changes will be necessary, and that for this levy on turn-over there should be substituted an Independent Television profits tax. I hear from all sides how grave the situation is in I.T.V., and my own view is that the position of the industry is now so very different from what it was when the levy was first introduced that the levy should now be abolished altogether, and also, in my view, a new system of two competitive television networks introduced. However, it would perhaps be ungracious of me not to say that so far as it goes we do give a moderate welcome to this Order.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

AGRICULTURE BILL
Brought from the Commons; read la, and to be printed.
BIRMINGHAM CORPORATION BILL HAMPSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL BILL HAVERING CORPORATION BILL NORTHUMBERLAND COUNTY COUNCIL BILL WALLASEY CORPORATION BILL WEST RIDING COUNTY COUNCIL BILL
Brought from the Commons; read la, and referred to the Examiners.
  DRUG ABUSE RESEARCH
  DRUG ABUSE RESEARCH
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  HEROIN ADDICTION: TREATMENT FACILITIES IN PRISONS
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