Sitting of 18 November 1969

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN

  DOUBLE TAXATION RELIEF (FINLAND)
  The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSE-HOLD reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:
  I have received your Address praying that on the ratification by the Government of the Republic of Finland of the Convention set out in the Schedule to the Order entitled the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Finland) Order 1969, a draft of which was laid before your House in the last Session of Parliament, an Order may be made in the form of that Draft.
  I will comply with your request.

PRIVATE BUSINESS

  AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND BANKING GROUP
  The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr. Sydney Irving): I beg to move:
  That notwithstanding anything in Standing Order 231 (Presentation of Petition for bill under section 1(4) of the Procedure Act) the Promoters of the Australia and New Zealand Banking Group Bill be permitted to present the Petition for their Bill on or before 27th November.
  At a late stage the promoters of this Bill discovered that there was a small number of persons resident in Scotland who might have borrowed money from one of the banks and have charged lands there as security. It was too late then for the promoters to apply to the Secretary of State for Scotland under Section 1(4) of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1936, in the time prescribed for the petition for the Bill to be presented in the normal way.
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  There is therefore a failure to comply with Standing Order NO. 231. I have seen the parliamentary agent concerned and satisfied myself that the rights of other parties are in no ways prejudiced by my moving of this motion. Nor has the agent's failure in any way affected the proper consideration of the representations which the Act requires.
  I therefore commend the Motion to the House.
  Question put and agreed to.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
  Mr. Atkinson: On a point of order. On the Order Paper today there are two Questions in my name, Questions Nos. 57 and 58. I was able to table those Questions around midday on 28th October. Having discussed the timing of some of the other Questions with the Members concerned, I find that some of the others may not have been included in the four o'clock bag which leaves the House. Therefore, I wonder whether it is possible to have a timing system whereby Questions submitted to the Table Office could be date- and time-stamped, so that we have them in the correct sequence, particularly Prime Minister's Questions.
  Would you look into that possibility, Mr. Speaker?
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I will certainly look into it. The point has been raised by other right hon. and hon. Gentlemen before. It is not an easy matter.

  HOUSING AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

    Tenants (Poor Housing Conditions)
    Mr. Tilneyasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what study he has made of the extent to which the occupancy of poor housing correlates with low competence in literate and linguistic communication; and what steps he proposes to take to raise the standards of literate and oral communication.
    The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Reginald Freeson): There have been several inquiries into the social aspects of housing need and into environmental influences on education. The question of educational standards is rather for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science.
    Mr. Tilney: Has the Minister seen the article in today's Daily Telegraph under the heading, "Illiterate London", which ends by saying
    "… teaching of reading …"—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot quote.
    Mr. Tilney: The article says that the teaching of reading is in disrepair. Would the hon. Gentleman consult his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science about literacy classes for those in community development centres which come within his purview, and will he consider the use there of the initial teaching alphabet rather than the 2,000 characters of traditional orthography for the 40 sounds of the English tongue?
    Mr. Freeson: While I have respect for the hon. Gentleman's special interest in this form of alphabet teaching, I do not think that it is a question for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government. We are interested in areas which have a social deprivation and its relationship to housing, and that covers a much wider area of consideration than the issue raised this afternoon.
    Mr. Heffer: Is my hon. Friend aware that in the city of Liverpool there are thousands of people who are extremely literate, very good readers, and extremely capable people in an intellectual sense, but who live in lousy houses owing to past policies?
    Mr. Freeson: I certainly accept that. It is our concern to do our best to ensure that local authorities as well as the private sector provide for housing need in such areas. I would take the opportunity of referring hon. Members to a very interesting section in the Labour Party's "Social Strategy", which speaks of the need for studying social priority areas.
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    This is very relevant to the kind of issue raised by the hon. Gentleman.

    Commons and Village Greens (Report)
    Mr. Channonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government (1) how many registrable commons and village greens remained unregistered to the last convenient date for which figures are available, giving a breakdown into counties and acreages;
    (2) whether he will make an order extending the period for commons registrations for a further three years.
    Mr. Spriggsasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many registrable commons and village greens remained unregistered up to the last convenient date for which figures are available, giving a breakdown into counties, and acreages; what reasons have been given him for this non-registration; and what steps he proposes to take to remedy the position.
    The Minister of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Anthony Greenwood): It is estimated that under 20 per cent. remained unregistered in April, 1969, and further substantial progress has since been made. I do not know of general difficulties. I do not think it necessary to extend beyond 2nd January, 1970, the time limit for applications for registration. I shall ask registration authorities to use fully their power to register before 31st March, 1970, reputed commons or greens in respect of which applications have not been made.
    Mr. Channon: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his reply will be considered most satisfactory? Can he assure us that he will press the county councils where necesary to take a liberal view of these matters and try to register before 31st March as they have the power to do?
    Mr. Greenwood: A word of praise from the hon. Gentleman is extremely welcome. I will take account of what he has said. I do not think that the county councils need encouraging along these lines, but if it is necessary to do so, I shall.
    Mr. Spriggs: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in Dorset alone 23,000 acres are unaccounted for? Will he reconsider

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    his reply and if necessary meet the interested parties to discuss this matter with a view to increasing the period allowed from three to six months, say, if not to three years?
    Mr. Greenwood: I did not know that figure, but if there are difficulties in Dorset I will look into them. Perhaps my hon. Friend will contact me. I am grateful to him for raising this point.

    Furnished and Unfurnished Lettings (Report)
    Mr. Barnesasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government by what date he has asked the Francis Committee to report on the operation of the Rent Act and the different codes affecting furnished and unfurnished lettings.
    The Minister of State, Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Denis Howell): My right hon. Friend is anxious to have this report as quickly as possible but does not want to set a hard and fast limit to this difficult but important inquiry; I know that the Committee itself wants to move as fast as possible.
    Mr. Barnes: Will the Committee consider evidence provided by Shelter of the inadequate protections for tenants of furnished lettings? In particular, could it consider whether, instead of making a distinction between furnished and unfurnished lettings, it would not be more meaningful to distinguish between lettings which are in the house where the landlord lives and lettings which are in any house he lets off as a business proposition?
    Mr. Howell: We are anxious that the Committee should consider all the evidence which responsible bodies consider relevant, and I urge Shelter and any other organisation that believes it has some criteria it wants examined to submit its evidence accordingly.
    Mr. Lubbock: Will the hon. Gentleman draw the attention of the Committee to the Amendment I moved during the Committee stage of the Rent Act, 1965, which would have assimilated the codes for furnished and unfurnished lettings?
    Mr. Howell: I prefer the hon. Gentleman to draw the Committee's attention to the matter himself, but if he cannot, I will.

    Sewage Disposal
    Mr. Arnold Shawasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what progress is being made by the Working Party on Sewage Disposal.
    Mr. Greenwood: The working party for whose work I am most grateful has completed its programme of visits, and the examination of evidence and of various papers on aspects of its work. The drafting of its report is expected to take another three months. I expect it to make a valuable contribution to our knowledge of ways and means of protecting our environment against pollution.
    Mr. Shaw: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the House welcomes the progress being made? While we have not got the report, I hope that when it comes he will act quickly on its findings.
    Mr. Greenwood: I would not like there to be any suggestion that the working party has not worked quickly. It held its first meeting on 6th March and it has four or five further meetings to hold in order to finalise the report. It has worked with admirable expedition and I hope that any necessary actions will follow equally expeditiously.
    Mr. John Wells: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there has recently been a massive case of fish poisoning in the River Medway due to pollution? This has caused grave anxieiy to angling clubs, which are in considerable financial difficulties because their overdraft reduction depends on having new members, whereas pollution means death, fewer fish and, therefore, fewer members, which in turn means difficulties with the bank manager and the Government. I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman has acted as quickly as he could, but can he look particularly at the problems of angling clubs?
    Mr. Greenwood: I am sure that the working party will take account of the point made by the hon. Gentleman.

    River Pollution (Survey)
    Mr. Arnold Shawasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what progress is being made on the Rivers Pollution Survey by his Department and the river authorities.
    Mr. Denis Howell: Good progress is being made by most of the river authorities and my right hon. Friend and his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales hope that the returns will be completed in the first half of next year.
    Mr. Shaw: Once again I welcome the progress which is being made, but again I take it that we shall have the report as quickly as possible.
    Mr. Howell indicated assent.

    Runcorn New Town
    Mr. Ormeasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what progress is being made with the development of Runcorn New Town.
    Mr, Denis Howell: Up to the end of last month, the Development Corporation had completed 725 houses. It has 2,315 houses under construction, of which 1,920 have been started this year. Over 500,000 sq. ft. of industrial development has been completed, and 430,000 sq. ft. are under construction. Very good progress is being made with the development of the town centre, main road system and other facilities.
    Mr. Orme: Is my hon. Friend aware that this is welcome information Those of us in the North-West, both in the Liverpool conurbation and the South-East Lancashire conurbation, are anxious that both these new towns at Warrington and Runcorn should proceed very fast? Will he give an assurance that the Government's policy is to speed these new towns as quickly as possible?
    Mr. Howell: I can give that assurance. I am happy to agree with what my hon. Friend has said. We believe that Runcorn has done remarkably well and that, in the congested parts of Merseyside and Manchester, the contribution of new towns is of immense importance and must go forward as fast as we can press on.
    Mr. Carlisle: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that, both in the number of houses built and the amount of industrial development in Runcorn, progress has been extremely good there and is a credit both to the board and to the staff of the Development Corporation
    Mr. Howell: Indeed, I agree. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for stating
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    that. I am happy to pay tribute to the remarkable efficiency at Runcorn.

    House Building Land, Greater London
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how much land has been made available for house building in the Greater London area by the Land Commission in the past year; how much is at present held by the Land Commission for that purpose; and how much he expects will be so made available in the coming year.
    Mr. Denis Howell: The Commission at present holds 188 acres of land at Horn-church. A small part of this is at present on offer to a builder and the rest will he available for housing and ancillary development when gravel has been extracted from the land.
    The needs of Greater London have to be considered in the context of a wider area. I understand that the Land Commission has in hand proposals to acquire a considerable acreage of land in the outer Metropolitan area.
    Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Does that answer mean that, to date, after two years of operation, the Land Commission has not found a single square foot of land to help housing in London? In these circumstances is it not time it was wound up?
    Mr. Howell: The answer does not mean anything of the kind. In view of the proposals the Land Commission is considering in the outer Metropolitan area, which is where one must look for relief for inner Metropolitan pressures, I doubt whether the right hon. Gentleman will be asking that sort of supplementary question in a few months' time.

    Football Matches (Hooliganism)
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what steps Her Majesty's Government is taking to combat hooliganism during and after football matches.
    Mr. Denis Howell: At my instigation the football authorities took part in a working party to consider measures that might be adopted to improve crowd control in football grounds. I hope to receive its report very shortly.
    Hooliganism outside football grounds is a matter for my right hon. Friend the

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    Home Secretary, and I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department on 16th October to Questions from my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, North-West (Sir B. Janner) and the hon. Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Hastings).—[Vol. 788, c. 594–5.]
    Mr. Dalyell: Is it true that the degree of co-operation shown to the working party has varied significantly as between club and club? What do the Government propose to do to move along the less enlightened clubs in this respect?
    Mr. Howell: The working party consisted not only of representatives of the Football Associations and the Football Leagues but also of the Home Office, the Scottish Office, supporters and secretaries, and the degree of co-operation from all of them was extremely high. I was delighted by the degree of co-operation and by the unanimity with which it produced a report.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Are the terms of reference of the working party wide enough to take account of contemporary disturbances at Springbok matches and include rugby football as well as soccer football?
    Mr. Howell: While many soccer men would no doubt like to take over responsibility for rugby football, I am glad to say that this was not right and proper in an inquiry dealing exclusively with soccer—association football.

    Eldon Lane Area
    Mr. Boydenasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government (1) what progress is being made in the reclassification of the Eldon Lane group of villages as recommended in the Lichfield Report, a copy of which has been sent to him;
    (2) what action he is taking to facilitate progress with the Shildon Urban District Council's plans to rehabilitate their part of the Eldon Lane area and to rebuild there.
    Mr. Denis Howell: The matters to which my hon. Friend refers are being considered by the local planning authority, Durham County Council.
    Mr. Boyden: Will my hon. Friend take special note of the fact that the Lichfield planning team has surveyed the whole of the Eldon Lane area and has recommended that the whole area is capable of redevelopment and that this will be satisfactory?
    Mr. Howell: I will certainly take special note of that and when we receive proposals from the Durham County Council, they will no doubt reflect these considerations.
    Mr. Graham Page: Was not that a rather complacent answer from the Minister of State? Would he not encourage the local authority to use the powers which the Government created in the Housing Act, 1969, for creating general improvement areas in these districts?
    Mr. Howell: It is possible for grants to be made for general improvement areas, but the proper manner is through the appropriate local authority, in this case Durham County Council. None of my answers is ever complacent.
    Mr. Boyden: May I ask my hon. Friend—?
    Mr. Speaker: No.
    Mr. Boyden: On a point of order. Although Questions Nos. 10 and 11 appear to be similar, they are not. Question No. 10 relates to Bishop Auckland and Question No. 11 to Shildon. May I ask a supplementary question on Question No. 11?
    Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order for the Chair.

    House Building (Private Sector)
    Mr. Allasonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what number of houses have been built in the private sector to the latest convenient date this year; and what was the corresponding number in 1968.
    Mr. Greenwood: From the beginning of January to the end of September, 1969, 136,200 houses were completed in the private sector in Great Britain. In the corresponding period of 1968 the number of private sector completions was 163,800.
    Mr. Allason: Will the right hon. Gentleman recognise that one of the factors

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    which is militating against building in the private sector is the shortage of land? Has he any proposals to try to bring more land forward so that building may continue?
    Mr. Greenwood: Discussions are going on in many parts of the country, particularly in the Home Counties and the West Midlands, with local planning authorities about the need for housing land, and the Land Commission is involved in some of our discussions.
    Mr. Frank Allaun: Will my right hon. Friend and the Chancellor of the Ex-Chequer consider telling the banks that they may and should end the freeze on loans to small and medium builders which is the real root of the trouble in the private sector?
    Mr. Greenwood: I will look into this matter, but my hon. Friend should know that advances to builders were still at a very high level when the latest figures were made available. However, there is to be a meeting of the Housing Programme Working Party on Friday and I will certainly raise this matter then.
    Mr. Peter Walker: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, according to the latest figure, 200 small builders a month are going bankrupt? Has he not looked at that already?
    Mr. Greenwood: Yes, I have, and I have discussed it with the industry, too.

    Land Commission (Building Land)
    Mr. Allasonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what acreage of building land has been acquired by the Land Commission; and at what average cost per acre.
    Mr. Denis Howell: The Land Commission has so far acquired 1,394 acres at an average price of £3,448 per acre. I understand that it has approved proposals to acquire a further 8,600 acres and that it has under consideration at the moment another 17,000 acres.
    Mr. Allason: Is any of this land earmarked for concessionary Crownhold which, the Minister will remember, was to bring down the price of land for small builders?
    Mr. Howell: I should want notice of detailed considerations of that kind.
    Mr. William Price: May I sympathise with my hon. Friend in being landed with the Land Commission? If he takes the advice of the right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) and winds it up, in its place will he introduce a more radical measure designed to hammer the speculators and help young couples trying to buy their own homes?
    Mr. Howell: The main reason for the Land Commission is that it produces land on which houses may he built and increasingly I shall be endeavouring to ensure that this policy is proved in fact.

    Country Parks and Picnic Sites
    Mr. Carol Johnsonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what progress is being made in establishing country parks and other places for recreation by local authorities under the Countryside Act.
    Mr. Greenwood: I have accepted recommendations by the Countryside Commission for the payment of 75 per cent. grant in respect of 7 country parks and 5 picnic sites. Recommendations relating to a further 11 country parks and 12 picnic sites are being considered. The Commission has another 20 schemes, 10 for country parks, 10 for picnic sites, under examination.
    Mr. Johnson: I thank my right hon. Friend for that full and encouraging reply. To what extent are he and the Countryside Commission concerning themselves with the broad strategy of country parks, particularly in connection with seeing that they are sited where they can relieve the pressure on National Parks?
    Mr. Greenwood: The, initiative in this matter depends largely on the local authorities, but I know that this is a matter which the Countryside Commission has under consideration. Certainly in watching progress I shall have consultations with the Commission whenever necessary.
    Mr. Kenneth Lewis: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many new reservoirs are being built, including one in my constituency? Will these grants be made

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    available to the river boards or county councils concerned with reservoirs so that they may use the land surrounding the reservoirs for country parks?
    Mr. Greenwood: Every reservoir has to be considered on its merits, but certainly as general policy I am strongly in favour of reservoirs being used for recreational purposes and I deprecate the hesitation of some water authorities to follow this policy.

    Closed Railway Lines (Use)
    Mr. Carol Johnsonasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what consideration is being given to the future use, for recreational purposes of closed railway lines.
    Mr. Greenwood: A study on the re-use of closed railway lines is being made on behalf of the Countryside Commission and the report is expected shortly. Local planning authorities have already converted a number of closed railway lines to public recreational use and many schemes are under consideration.
    Mr. Johnson: Would it not help the Countryside Commission to prepare a national policy if my right hon. Friend persuaded the Minister of Transport to relieve British Railways of the obligation to dispose of disused railway sidings as soon as possible? At present there is not time available to work out what could be done with what could be a most valuable addition of land for recreational use by ramblers, motorists, cyclists and horse riders.
    Mr. Greenwood: I shall certainly draw this to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport. It would be wrong to assume that time has been wasted. The Countryside Commission appointed Dr. Appleton, Reader in Geography at Hull University, to prepare a report on this subject. I hope that that report will be available this month and it will be published early in the new year.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: I welcome this development. However, is the Minister aware of the growing anxiety among farmers about the increase in the use of land for recreational facilities, because many people regard farmland as belonging to the public, particularly in the
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    National Parks areas? Will he take steps to see that that impression is corrected, because trespassers must not be encouraged?
    Mr. Greenwood: This situation sometimes arised with railway lines. It is important that whenever possible hon. Members draw to the attention of the public the proposals incorporated in the Countryside Code.

    Heywood Council (Lending Quota)
    Mr. Barnettasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will reconsider the amount of lending quota allocated to Heywood Council; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Freeson: My right hon. Friend has reconsidered the Council's quota for the current financial year but regrets that he is unable to increase it. Allocations out of the additional £25 million were confined to authorities on the housing priority list or to certain recognised areas of town development, and Heywood is not included in either of these lists.
    Mr. Barnett: Is my hon. Friend aware that the shortage of funds for older houses is having a serious effect in that houses are remaining empty and are deteriorating and that vandals are causing damage? Should not the supply of funds be given very high priority? Would he not re-consider?
    Mr. Freeson: I appreciate the point my hon. Friend has made, but his request for reconsideration has already been taken aboard in an answer by my right hon. Friend a week or so ago when he said that in the coming year the allocation was to be increased to £100 million. One should also pay particular attention to the benefits which arise from the Housing Act, 1969, to assist in the modernisation and improvement of old properties.
    Mr. Peter Walker: When considering the criteria for priorities, will the Minister give particular consideration to those local authorities with large-scale problems of planning blight?
    Mr. Freeson: This is a point which could well be considered in the review of the way in which the priority list has been classified in the past. The general

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    point is already being covered; I have been looking at this with my right hon. Friend in the last few weeks.

    Housing, Oldham
    Mr. Mappasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will state, for the County Borough of Oldham, the number of unfit dwellings planned for demolition during the municipal year 1970–71, the number of municipal replacements scheduled for commencement in the same year and, on that basis, how many years will be required to overcome the remaining backlog of rehousing.
    Mr. Freeson: Oldham should clear about 1,000 unfit houses during the municipal year 1970–71 as a consequence of action already in train, and I am aware of building schemes amounting to 273 dwellings scheduled for commencement in the same period.
    I shall be discussing with representatives of the Council the reasons for its decision to reduce the programme of new housebuilding, and the effect which this could have on the rate of slum clearance.
    Mr. Mapp: Is my hon. Friend aware that 11,000 Oldham householders are now likely to be living in unfit houses, over three times the period that they would have done if a Labour Council continued in office? May I put the specific point to him that regardless of the political complexion the problem of financing the rehousing programme between the stage of clearing the unfit houses and bringing the first new housing unit within the subsidy of 4 per cent. is very onerous financially to the Corporation? Can he examine that specific point and, if so, how soon?
    Mr. Freeson: I will certainly accept that whereas there has been a considerable increase in the financial assistance given by the Government under the Housing Act, 1957—it is running at about three times the previous rate of Government subsidy—there is nevertheless a difficulty in this interregnum period. I am afraid that I cannot give the undertaking on behalf of my hon. Friend that has been requested. It is well to bear in mind that in places like Oldham there are other difficulties regarding the clearance of slums—that is non-revenue producing sites in certain towns whose populations are contracting.

    Rents
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of Housing and Local Government to what extent applications by tenants to rent officers for fair rents have increased since his recent publicity campaign; and if he will introduce legislation requiring notification of all rents by landlords in areas of housing shortage and inquiries by rent officers into rents which appear to be exorbitant.
    Mr. Denis Howell: The results of the campaign have not yet been fully appraised.
    On the second part of the Question, I will see that my hon. Friend's suggestion is brought to the notice of the committee set up under the chairmanship of Mr. Hugh Francis, Q.C. to look into the operation of rent regulation.
    Mr. Allaun: While I am grateful for that answer, may I ask whether or not it is a fact that most persons entitled to considerable rent reductions are still not claiming them? Would it not encourage them to do so if they could see on a list published at the town hall that others in similar dwellings are paying much less rent than they are?
    Mr. Howell: I am happy to say that since the campaign there has been an increase in the number of inquiries of rent officers. I can certainly assure my hon. Friend that this aspect of public ignorance is something that we want to keep under constant review.
    Mr. Evelyn King: Would the hon. Gentleman agree that while tenants have their rights, so too have the homeless? Is it not self-evident that the further rents are reduced the fewer become the number of houses to rent?
    Mr. Howell: I would have thought that the best contribution we can make towards housing the homeless is to build more local authority houses?

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND REGIONAL PLANNING

    Environmental Pollution
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning when he expects to publish a plan to combat environmental pollution.
    Mr. St. John-Stevasasked the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning what plans he has to protect the environment against pollution.
    The Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning (Mr. Anthony Crosland): There exist already extensive arrangements in this country for dealing with the various forms of pollution. But, as the Prime Minister has announced to the House, I am now reviewing the whole machinery.
    Mr. Dalyell: In this review of machinery will the Secretary of State set out what he considers are the financial priorities in the battle against pollution?
    Mr. Crosland: If this turns out to be possible, but it is not very easy to set these priorities down in some simple order. When one is considering air pollution versus river pollution versus oil pollution on the beaches, it is not a simple matter to say that they should be put in a certain order, one, two, three. But, subject to that difficulty I should like to get a sense of priority.
    Mr. St. John-Stevas: Would the right hon. Gentleman direct his mind to the problem raised by sulphur dioxide pollution in the air? I understand that this is increasing as the smoke nuisance is going down. Is he aware that it not only erodes buildings but also irritates the lungs and aggravates chest diseases?
    Mr. Crosland: The whole object of this review is to try to establish whether the existing controls are adequate, whether there are any obvious gaps in these controls, and whether we have sufficient resources at our disposal for trying to foresee future pollution dangers in time to do something about them.
    Mr. Blackburn: Can my right hon. Friend confirm that it is with his Ministry that we must take up this question of pollution of the atmosphere by exhaust fumes?
    Mr. Crosland: No, Sir. There are a number of Ministers with statutory responsibilities, housing, transport, agriculture and trade. It will remain their task to carry out their statutory responsibilities under existing laws. It is my task to try to decide whether the entire central machinery for dealing with existing,
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    or as I would hope future, pollution problems is adequate.
    Sir D. Renton: Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that prevention of pollution will become more difficult as the country becomes further urbanised and more over-populated?
    Mr. Crosland: Yes, Sir. I have no doubt at all that with the growth both of population and of general mechanisation the pollution problem will become steadily worse, unless we for our part increase our measures for coping with it.
    Mr. Gordon Campbell: What consultations has the right hon. Gentleman had on this with the Secretary of State for Scotland, as foreshadowed by the Prime Minister in his statement of 13th October?
    Mr. Crosland: As usual, continuous.

    Royal Commission on Local Government
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning whether, in view of the high proportion of the inhabitants of Sherborne who have signed a petition against the proposal of the RedcliffeMaud Report that Sherborne should be transferred from Dorset to West Somerset. he will give an undertaking not to implement this part of the report.
    Mr. Crosland: I am aware of this petition and also of the views of the Dorset County Council. I have made it clear, however, that boundaries will be the subject of separate consultation after the Government have reached conclusions on the structure of local government and published them in a White Paper.
    Mr. Digby: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the widespread resentment there is in both these council areas about these suggestions, even among the comparative few who go to work in Somerset, and that all local councillors resent these proposals?
    Mr. Crosland: I am aware of the very strong feelings held and expressed in the petition. When it comes to the detailed discussions of boundaries, which is a later stage, I shall take these feelings into account, along, however, with other factors which are also relevant.
    Mr. Peter Walker: When does the right hon. Gentleman expect the White Paper to be published?
    Mr. Crosland: In the new year.
    Miss Quennellasked the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning how many local councils and second-tier authorities he estimates would exist on the full implementation of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Local Government.
    Mr. Crosland: The Commission recommended that initially local councils should be set up in each present local authority area and in each parish where there is a parish council. These together number 7,844. In the three metropolitan areas suggested by the Commission, there would be 20 second-tier authorities.
    Miss Quennell: Does the Minister not realise that the report also recommended that urban district councils, like county boroughs and municipal corporations, should qualify as local councils? Is he aware that the total is about 8,000, which does not appear to offer a significant reduction in the number of authorities, which was the principle the Government were pursuing?
    Mr. Crosland: Of course I am aware of the first point that the hon. Lady put, because I quote the precise figure, not 8,000 but 7,844. These local councils will not, under the Maud recommendations exercise the large variety of statutory functions that are currently exercised by particular types of council mentioned by the hon. Lady.
    Mr. Farrasked the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning if he will extend the period within which local authorities are enabled to present their views on the RedcliffeMaud Report.
    Sir D. Rentonasked the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning whether he will extend the time given for the submission by local authorities of their views on the Royal Commission on local government in England and Wales.
    Mr. Cleggasked the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional
    1102
    Planning how many representations he has received from local authorities about the time allowed for the submission of representations on the Redcliffe-Maud Report.
    Mr. Crosland: I do not think it necessary to extend the period allowed for the submission of evidence. I received requests for an extension from 199 local authorities, mostly some time ago. But well over 1,000 authorities have now sent me their comments, including practically all the county councils and county boroughs and a majority of the urban and rural districts. I am grateful for this excellent response and for the many constructive suggestions that have been made.
    Mr. Farr: What is the point of rushing through this report? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Maud Report spells the end for local government as we know it and that many of us are trying to resist it and to see that local authorities have a proper chance of expressing their views?
    Mr. Crosland: There can be no question of our being said to be rushing this report through. The Commission sat for three years, during the whole of which time there was continuous and animated discussion on all these matters. Every local authority in the country during that time formed and submitted its own considered views and we have now had some months since the report came out for people to make up their minds. We must now push ahead with all reasonable speed, to end uncertainty in local government.
    Sir D. Renton: Would the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that before giving the Government their views many local authorities had to consult other bodies in their areas? Would he also bear in mind that there is no chance whatever of legislation of this matter in this Parliament?
    Mr. Crosland: On the latter part of that question, it has already been announced that legislation will occur in the 1971–72 Session, and not in this Parliament. On the first part of the question, the fact is that a huge majority of councils have submitted evidence to me and it is perfectly clear that the evidence has been most carefully and deeply considered.
    Mr. Barnett: Will my right hon. Friend not accede to the request to delay the publication of the White Paper, bearing in mind the urgent need to go ahead with the proposals? He says that the White Paper will be published in the new year. Does that mean January or December?
    Mr. Crosland: On the first part of the supplementary question, as always, I take my hon. Friend's advice; I have no intention of delaying the White Paper. On the second part, "the new year" means broadly the new year.
    Mr. William Priceasked the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning how many letters he has received in support of the Maud recommendations on local government.
    Mr. Crosland: There is almost universal agreement with the Redcliffe-Maud report that far-reaching changes in local government are now necessary. There is also widespread agreement on the need for larger authorities which will combine both town and country. I regret, however, that I cannot give an exact answer to my hon. Friend's Question. Many of the 2,000 comments that I have received approve some of the recommendations, but not others. I am now weighing up carefully all the views that have been expressed.
    Mr. Price: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that there is any widespread support for this particular piece of academic moonshine? Is he satisfied that the lumping together of hundreds of thousands of people will do anything more than create empire-building chaos and almost total apathy?
    Mr. Crosland: That is hardly a very objective account of the situation. There is a great deal of support for the Maud recommendations; similarly there is a great deal of opposition. Views are generally confused and contradictory. But at the end of the day the Government must make up their mind and put intelligent proposals to the House.
    Sir J. Rodgers: The Minister said that he had received 1,000 replies. He now says that he has had 2,000 replies. Which is right?
    Mr. Crosland: Both figures are entirely accurate. I have had the pleasure of receiving 1,000 replies from local authorities and 1,000 replies from members of the public.

    Unemployment, Northern Area
    Dame Irene Wardasked the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning if he will state the unemployment figures at the nearest convenient date for the northern area, giving separately figures for the main centres of population, place by place; and what fresh action he is taking to induce new industries to establish themselves there.
    The Minister of State (Mr. T. W. Urwin): I will circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The Government's regional policy continues to give massive preference to industrial expansion in the development areas.
    Dame Irene Ward: But is the Minister aware that it would be more helpful and more satisfactory, in view of what is going on in the development areas, if we could know the unemployment figures in specially selected large areas within a region—such as North Shields in my division, South Shields on the other side of the Tyne, Sunderland, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, and so on? Just quoting an overall figure does not emphasise the situation in many of these areas. We should like to have them picked out so that we may know what is going on.
    Mr. Urwin: As I have indicated, the figures will be published in the OFFICIAL REPORT, but they are printed from time to time in the Department of Employment and Productivity Gazette. However, I hope that the hon. Lady's preoccupation with unemployment figures does not make her oblivious to the fact that there is a tremendous amount of development taking place in the Northern Region. There are 42,300 jobs in prospect over the next four years, of which 29,200 will be for men. In the Tyneside area, with which the hon. Lady is primarily concerned, the corresponding figures are 7,490 and 4,280.
    Mr. Rhodes: As the hon. Lady the Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) has mentioned Newcastle-upon-Tyne, would my hon. Friend accept my thanks and congratulations on behalf of

    1105
    my constituents, whose latest figures I have seen, for the fact that the shipbuilding industry on the Tyne and the production of heavy electrical engineering plant is reaching record heights partly as a result of the direct intervention of the Government?

    Numbers of Persons on Registers at 13th October, 1969

    Men 18 and over

    Women 18 and over

    Boys and Girls under 18

    Total

    Temporarily Stopped (Included in Total)

    Percentage Rate of Unemployment

    Bishop Auckland

    …

    2,608

    191

    202

    3,001

    3

    6·7

    Carlisle

    …

    823

    182

    48

    1,053

    —

    2·5

    Chester le Street

    …

    1,943

    217

    179

    2,339

    2

    6·3

    Consett

    …

    1,591

    188

    99

    1,878

    3

    6·0

    Darlington

    …

    1,189

    254

    50

    1,493

    6

    2·8

    Durham

    …

    1,214

    149

    70

    1,433

    47

    5·2

    Hartlepool

    …

    1,648

    410

    217

    2,275

    36

    5·9

    Peterlee

    …

    1,205

    132

    145

    1,482

    —

    6·1

    Sunderland

    …

    5,668

    499

    559

    6,726

    13

    5·8

    Teesside

    …

    5,299

    1,463

    669

    7,431

    7

    3·8

    Tyneside

    …

    16,262

    2,311

    1,482

    20,055

    71

    5·1

    Workington

    …

    1,113

    363

    106

    1,582

    69

    5·7

    Northern Region

    …

    49,628

    7,736

    4,463

    61,727

    475

    4·7

    Scotland (Regional Planning)
    Mr. Gordon Campbellasked the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning what proposals he has for regional planning relating to Scotland.
    Mr. Crosland: Specific proposals for Scotland are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. Within the framework of the Government's regional policy as a whole, which is my responsibility, we shall continue our vigorous and successful measures to encourage economic growth in Scotland.
    Mr. Campbell: The right hon. Gentleman will have to do a great deal better than the Government have done in the last two or three years. As the Prime Minister described the right hon. Gentleman as the Minister responsible for the Government's regional policy as a whole, taking over the work of the defunct Department of Economic Affairs, when will he be in a position to formulate proposals relating to Scotland?
    Mr. Crosland: I suppose that the hon. Gentleman has to be rather shrill in his tone considering the repute in which the Tories are held in Scotland, as shown by the result of the Gorbals by-election. As to proposals for the future economic
    Mr. Urwin: I am grateful to my hon Friend for reminding the House of the tremendous efforts made by the Government to build up the shipbuilding industry of this country.
    Following are the figures:
    development of Scotland, as I said in answer to a previous question, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I are in almost continuous consultation on these matters.

    EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
    Mr. Martenasked the Prime Minister if he will make an official visit to the European Economic Community Commission in Brussels.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Prime Minister whether he will seek a meeting with the Heads of Government of the European Community between their summit meeting and the end of this year in order to ensure that no decisions are taken which would destroy the prospect of successful negotiation between the United Kingdom and the European Economic Community in the New Year.
    Mr. Shinwellasked the Prime Minister what progress has been made in the preparation of statistics and relevant facts relating to the proposed British entry into the European Economic Community; and if he will make a statement.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): On Questions Nos. Q1 and Q2, I would refer to what I said in reply to a similar Question by the hon. Member

    1107
    for South Angus (Mr. Bruce Gardyne) on 6th November.
    On Question No. Q5, I have at this stage nothing to add to what I told the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and other hon. Members on 16th October.—[Vol. 790, c. 1180–1; Vol. 788, c. 601–5.]
    Mr. Marten: Does the Prime Minister recall that part of his Guildhall speech last week when he referred to the influx of tourists to this country who come to fill their shopping bags in London at prices far below anything that they can get in any of the European capitals? Would he kindly inform his friends at Brussels that the British would rather keep it that way?
    The Prime Minister: The question of price levels so far as food, which I think the hon. Gentleman has in mind, is concerned, must be a matter for the negotiations. It is a fact, however—and many tourists returning from this country this summer would confirm this—that the prices of consumer goods in many of our big stores is highly competitive. I am more optimistic than the hon. Gentleman about our ability to compete effectively, and with great benefit to employment, in the Common Market.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: The Prime Minister referred to his Answer to me on 6th November. On that occasion he said that he saw no reason to warn the Six against the dangers of an extravagant agricultural settlement. Therefore, can he tell the House why, on 14th November, the Foreign Secretary, in Bonn, gave precisely this warning publicly? How did the Government come to change their mind?
    The Prime Minister: The reasons I said what I did to the hon. Gentleman on 6th November was that the Six are fully aware of the problems for themselves concerning the agricultural policy in respect of price levels, budgetary contributions and surpluses. My right hon. Friend, who had important talks in Bonn the other day, naturally discussed all matters with them. But I do not think that he told them anything new that they did not know.
    Mr. Shinwell: Will the statement be confined exclusively to the facts and exclude irrelevant opinion by civil servants
    1108
    and others concerned? Will my right hon. Friend say whether the report will be submitted to the House before the next General Election, and, when it is introduced, will he welcome a debate on the subject?
    The Prime Minister: The question of a debate is for my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, but I should think it inconceivable that, when the figures are available, the House would not want to have a debate.
    Mr. Roebuck: And a vote.
    The Prime Minister: It depends on the motion before the House. It might even be discussed on the Adjournment; I do not know.
    Sir G. Nabarro: We voted once before.
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman will no doubt wish to study the White Paper concerned before deciding how to vote.
    The content will be mainly factual and statistical. Any textual matters as opposed to figures will be the responsibility of Her Majesty's Ministers.
    With regard to the time, I have been doing all I can to get this out before the House adjourns for Christmas. But one difficulty is that as the summit meeting of the Six to consider development of Community policies has been postponed until December, and as our studies naturally will have to take account of the effect on the United Kingdom of adopting various alternative Community policies, I doubt whether it will be possible to complete the studies in time to publish them before the Christmas holidays. But I hope that we shall have them early in the New Year.
    Mr. St. John-Stevas: In view of the urgency which the Prime Minister attaches to this problem, is not it curious that he has been beaten to it by both The Times and the Daily Telegraph which have published a series of highly informative articles on the costs to Britain?
    The Prime Minister: The articles naturally did not involve the same degree of inquiry and consideration of the facts that the Government are giving to this. If it comes to that, there was a story in The Guardian during the summer which incorporated The Guardian's statistics in

    1109
    this matter. I think that the hon. Gentleman, with his great knowledge of these subjects, will understand the great difficulties and the large number of alternative assumptions which it will be necessary to make so that the House can be given as full information as possible.
    Mr. Heffer: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the central question is agriculture—[HON. MEMBERS "Speak up."] I am sorry, but I am trying to raise my voice against a background of what would appear to be opposition. Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the central issue is agriculture, and that the problems are becoming increasingly difficult because of the French attitude towards the agricultural question? Should not my right hon. Friend explain to the House the Government's views on agriculture and say whether it will be more difficult for us to enter the Common Market if the Six make an early agricultural agreement?
    The Prime Minister: I have always felt, and I think that right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House who have studied this fully have always felt, that it is the problem of the common agricultural policy that presents the biggest difficulties for Britain. But there is now widespread recognition within Europe that the common agricultural policy has run into difficulties, as I said a few moments ago. The Six are intending to make progress in dealing with some of the problems about the C.A.P. in the next few weeks, and I understand that the French have asked that this be dealt with before the end of the year. For that reason, we may be able to make slightly better estimates—and they cannot be all that certain—if we wait to see what progress is made on the agricultural policy between now and then.
    Mr. Turton: Will the Prime Minister review this matter, as yesterday the Chairman of the Economic Committee of the C.B.I. estimated that the cost of entry would be at least £500 million, although many people in this country have made the sum a good deal more than that? There is therefore urgent need for the Prime Minister to give some official figures without further delay.
    The Prime Minister: I have very high respect for Sir Hugh Weeks and for the
    1110
    calculation he makes, but he was not—and he was the first to say this—making this calculation in his capacity as Chairman of the Economic Committee of the C.B.I.; he was doing it, as I remember, in an article in the Journal of the merchant bank of which he is the chairman. It is because I take these questions so seriously that, when the right hon. Gentleman asks for an authoritative estimate, I have had to explain what are the problems in making chat estimate, or rather the series of estimates, based on a wide spectrum of assumptions to make it as authoritative as possible, and that is why more time is needed.
    Mr. Jay: As to the figures which the Government are working out, is it their intention to press on with their application whatever those figures?
    The Prime Minister: As I have said many times in the House, our application is in, and we are ready to start negotiations. In the debate on the south coast in which my right hon. Friend played a part, no one was pressing that we should withdraw our application. If they were, they did not press it to a division—I am speaking of our conference, and I think the experience of right hon. Gentlemen opposite is broadly the same. It was felt in our conference and in other conferences that what matters at the end of the day is the terms we get in negotiations, and we shall not find 'hat out by withdrawing the application.
    Mr. Thorpe: Is the Prime Minister aware that no White Paper on the level of prices for food or for agriculture will be of any validity unless and until we know the outcome of the summit negotiations, which may well lead to a reduction in farm prices in Europe? Is he further aware that there is considerable evidence that the more extreme representatives of Gaullism are now being brought under control in Europe, and may we wish him the same success in dealing with their opposite numbers in this country?
    The Prime Minister: "Bringing them under control" seems to be a singularly illiberal phrase. The tact that some of them may be seeing the light in the real interests of France is, perhaps, the phrase which I would choose to substitute for what the right hon. Gentleman has said.

    1111
    Of course, the right hon. Gentleman has made my point tor me, that we should see the results of the summit conference, if there are any clear results from it, before we can decide some of the more relevant assumptions in making our calculations. On agricultural prices, we shall not be making assumptions about Common Market prices but about world prices. Right hon. Gentlemen will have seen that some significant changes are taking place in world affairs, mainly because, with improved agricultural technology in Asia and elsewhere, there has been a revolutionary increase in grain production in countries like India, which, in a matter of two years, will be a potential food export country. At the end of the day, people who try to rig the market in the way that was done by the C.A.P. may find that world forces will considerably affect their intentions.
    Mr. Heath: When the Government produce their analysis, will the Prime Minister ensure that the distinction between the common agricultural policy as a system and the prices which are used within that system is clearly set out? Will he point out that the summit conference will be largely dealing with the financial regulation and not with changes in the system to ensure that sufficient money goes into the pool? Will the review also point out that, if we were to use our present support price system, with present prices in the Common Market, the cost would be equally great, but it would be borne in a different form, in the form of taxation which we require to supply those funds, and the movement across the exchanges would be just as great?
    The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman has made a totally valid distinction between the system and the way it is operated in terms of prices. We have accepted in principle the system, as any applicant for membership of the Treaty of Rome must accept it, but the Treaty of Rome countries themselves are now getting worried about the way in which it is being administered. We shall, naturally, watch with interest to see what changes they may want to make even before negotiations begin.
    As to the distinction between the C.A.P. and the agricultural price support system, many hon. Members feel that our
    1112
    own system of deficiency payments, based on Conservative legislation deriving from the 1947 Act, is probably the best system so far devised. It is interesting that many people in Europe are now beginning to say that the Common Market might run better on a deficiency payments system. I do not know what will come out of that. I was interested to see in the Daily Telegraph on Saturday that the Conservative Party is to change its rather extraordinary policy about agricultural levies and that we are to expect a statement this week, which we shall look forward to with great interest.

    PRIME MINISTER OF NORTHERN IRELAND (MEETING)
    Mr. Arthur Davidsonasked the Prime Minister whether he will arrange a further meeting with the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland.
    The Prime Minister: I met the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland yesterday and we had a brief discussion of the progress made since our meeting on 19th August.
    Mr. Davidson: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the most important thing of all is for the Northern Ireland Prime Minister to convince moderate opinion in all sections of the community in Northern Ireland, and particularly among the Roman Catholic minority, that he and the Northern Ireland Government have the ability and the intention to carry out the necessary reforms and to end discrimination? Is he satisfied from his talks with Major Chichester-Clark that there is some confidence that this will happen?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. As to ability and intention, I have very great confidence in what is understood in Northern Ireland and in what is happening. The problem that faces the Northern Ireland Prime Minister, and indeed the problem that faced his predecessor, is a backlog of nearly 50 years in which almost nothing was done. I am glad to feel that as a result of our pressure, long before the troubles this August, considerable progress was made both by the Government headed by Captain O'Neill and by the Government

    1113
    headed by Major Chichester-Clark. But there is a long history of fear, anxiety and failure to deal with the problems in time. I feel that the present Northern Ireland Government, like their predecessor, have a sense of urgency about these questions.
    Mr. Thorpe: The Prime Minister will be aware that a number of families in Northern Ireland have been burned out of their homes and have had all their possessions destroyed, and that many are living in emergency shelter and in caravans. Did he discuss with the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland whether adequate compensation would be paid to help these people to start a new life, and did he indicate whether Her Majesty's Government would be prepared to help financially if the Northern Ireland Government felt that this was outside their own financial possibilities?
    The Prime Minister: No, Sir, that was not discussed with the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland last night, in a talk lasting rather less than an hour. These are matters to be taken up between my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and the Government of Northern Ireland, and there are almost continuous relations with them. There are a number of family problems. It is too early to say anything, except to underline the urgency of the problem facing those burnt o at of their homes, or those who were forced out by various forms of eviction and threats and blackmail. This is an urgent problem, but I do not think I have anything to say today about how it should be dealt with.
    Mr. Michael Foot: Did the Prime Minister take the opportunity yesterday to emphasise to the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland that any proposals for the establishment of an Ulster Defence Regiment could not be considered fixed or final in any way until they had been subjected to detailed scrutiny, and possible amendment in this House, which is the procedure in Parliament on this side of the Irish Sea?
    The Prime Minister: The Prime Minister of Northern Ireland has been getting through his Parliament some much a more difficult legislation than the particular Bill to which my hon. Friend refers. He will be more aware than most parlia-
    1114
    mentarians that nothing requiring legislation takes effect until that legislation is complete, its having gone through Committee stage, Report stage and all the other stages in which Amendments can be put down. That is our position on the Ulster Defence Force.
    On the other hand, if my hon. Friend is referring, as he may be, to the fact that some time was spent on Ulster commercial television dealing with these matters, I should have thought that there is nothing improper in that. A White Paper has been laid before the House of Commons and it is fair, particularly at a time when misunderstanding of the White Paper might cause a reversion to communal strife, that this matter should be properly explained in the terms of the White Paper. But this Parliament is sovereign in terms of legislation that finally becomes law. Nobody is in any doubt at all about that.

NIGERIA AND BIAFRA
3.35 p.m.
Mr. Hugh Fraser: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I beg leave to seek your guidance.
Yesterday, as you will recall, when the House was discussing daylight mercy flights to Biafra one of the issues was the provision of a third party guarantee to the Biafran people that such flights should not be used for military purposes. At col. 822 and, more specifically, at col. 824 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, the Foreign Secretary assured the House that such a guarantee had been given by the United States Government. This was completely new information.
On inquiry this morning at the United States Embassy, I was informed that no such guarantee had been given nor, obviously, according to Biafran sources, had any such guarantee been received. Accordingly, I thought it only proper to ask the Foreign Secretary, through his Private Office, to correct the impression that he gave yesterday. According to his office, he refused to do so.
In these circumstances, I ask you, Mr. Speaker, what the House can do and what redress it has if it is misled on a vital issue by a senior Minister and that

1115
Minister refuses the opportunity of correcting a statement which is palpably untrue.
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Michael Stewart): I am not sure whether you have ruled that this is a point of order, Mr. Speaker, but if it is of any help to the House I shall be glad to make a statement to clear up the matter.
Mr. Speaker: On the general issue, I ruled a week ago that it was a bad practice for hon. Members to raise, under the guise of points of order, matters raised in previous debates. There are parliamentary ways of settling differences of opinion and criticisms of each other's speeches.
Mr. Stewart: Since the matter has been raised I should like to say that I have never been unwilling to inform the House of what the United States Government both said and did. What happened was that Colonel Ojukwu asked for third party assurances as to the good faith of the Nigerian Government in respect of daylight flights. The Government of the United States accordingly sought and received the solemn assurance of the Federal Government of Nigeria that it would ensure that no hostile military action would be taken. The United States showed its conviction of the validity of these assurances by arranging that Ambassador Ferguson went to West Africa to give the Biafrans the specific pledge of the Federal Government of Nigeria on this matter. This put the prestige and the faith of the United States behind the assurances which had been given.
Further, in consequence of this other Governments, after consultation with the United States, agreed to offer impartial observers to accompany Red Cross aircraft on their relief flights. The Secretary of State of the United States further said:
"We believe that the proposed arrangements for daylight flights meet in a reasonable manner the legitimate security concerns of the Biafran authorities."
In the light of all this I used the word "guarantee", which I think is worrying the right hon. Gentleman. If that word misled anyone I am sorry. It was certainly not intended to mislead nor, indeed, could it have done so, because,
1116
contrary to what the right hon. Gentleman has said, this was not new information.
The statements made by the United States Secretary of State to which I have referred were made public knowledge last week and, presumably, were known to those hon. Members who follow these matters. If any of them had felt that I misleadingly had described them they could have raised the matter at the time and I would have sought by any correction of words that might be necessary to make quite clear what they did say.
Therefore, I must, with respect, reject the implication of what the right hon. Gentleman has said.
Mr. Hugh Fraser rose—
Hon. Members: Withdraw!
Mr. Speaker: Order. We cannot now debate the issue.
Mr. Fraser: Will you be so kind, Mr. Speaker, as to read out the statement by the Foreign Secretary in col. 824 in reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home)?
Mr. Speaker: Order. As I said last week, this shows the unwisdom of raising as a point of order matters on which there is a difference of opinion in a previous debate. The right hon. Gentleman has made his point and the Minister has answered it. We cannot proceed to an irregular debate.

ULSTER DEFENCE REGIMENT (QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE)
Mr. Speaker: The House will remember that yesterday afternoon, immediately after I had ruled on an application by the hon. Lady the Member for Mid-Ulster (Miss Devlin) to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9, the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) raised the question of
"Announcements … and actions … taken by persons purporting to act with the authority of the Minister before the House has had an opportunity of debating this issue…"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th November, 1969; Vol. 791, c. 868]
as constituting a prima facie case of breach of privilege.

1117
I understand that the hon. Gentleman was founding his complaint on a number of documents, and I therefore desired him to submit them to the Table to enable me to study them without taking the usual course of having them read to the House. There is a precedent for my action in the Journal for 23rd February, 1880
Subsequently, the hon. Member for West Ham, North submitted a copy of a letter from the Minister of Defence for Administration to the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster (Miss Devlin), a copy of a script of a television interview, which was referred to in yesterday's application for an S.O.9, and an advertisement referring to the Royal Irish Constabulary and defence forces in Northern Ireland issued by the Government of Northern Ireland and referring to the White Paper "Formation of the Ulster Defence Regiment", Cmnd. Paper No. 4188, which was presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State for Defence earlier this month.
I will cause all these papers to be placed in the Library. Having studied them myself, it falls to me to rule whether, on the precedents, the hon. Member for West Ham, North in his complaint yesterday, supported by the documents to which I have referred, has established a prima facie case of breach of privilege which would entitle the matter to be given priority over the Orders of the Day. I do not have to comment on the merits of the matter, my duty being restricted to this one point.
Having carefully considered the precedents, I have to rule that no prima facie case of breach of privilege has been made out. In saying that, I do not in any way prejudge the issue, which may be brought before the House by other means if the hon. Member decides to take such opportunities as may be open to him.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: Mr. Speaker, may I thank you on my own behalf and that of the House for the way in which you have given this matter your attention? Perhaps I might refresh your memory by saying that you also asked me to submit in writing the basis upon which I was submitting the question yesterday. No doubt inadvertently, you did not mention that I also wrote and submitted to you three bases upon which I felt that those documents constituted a prima facie breach of privilege and formed the basis
1118
of my complaint, but that they related only to the particular case and that it was the general issue mentioned in my submission which concerned me. I was not able to refer to it yesterday, because you will recall that you asked me to put it in writing. However, you have made no reference to it in your Ruling.
What I am interested in is not so much the particular case as the general and dangerous precedent which is created if a Minister or one of his servants is allowed to go on the radio or television purporting to act with the authority of the House of Commons when this House has never debated the issue, let alone given him legal authority so to act. I was more concerned with that general issue than with this particular case.
Even the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when introducing his Budget, gets the approval of the House before he takes action on it. In this case, the Minister and the colonel in question made statements and took action without the legislative authority of Parliament. I submit that that is the general question which should be considered.
Finally, if not a breach of privilege, it is at least a grave discourtesy to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the House that the Minister or his Department caused an announcement to me made on the news bulletins at midnight and at seven and eight o'clock this morning—
Mr. Albu: On a point of order. What was the question before the House?
Mr. Arthur Lewis: Mr. Speaker, while you were considering the matter, there was an announcement that the Minister would make a statement on the very subject which was sub judice until you yourself ruled upon it.
Mr. Speaker: I will deal with the last point first. The Minister has not made a statement.
On the other issues, I allowed the hon. Member for West Ham, North to make his submission orally to the House today. I had considered all the points that he made in his submission.
The question of a prima facie case of privilege is one for the Chair. The hon. Gentleman has his own parliamentary remedies if he still believes that the privilege of the House was involved.
Mr. Heath: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Of course, the House accepts your Ruling, but may I raise a point of procedure for the guidance of the House?
You have mentioned that the procedure followed today is covered by a precedent of 1880 which, by its nature, will be beyond the memory of most of us in the House, and I doubt whether many were acquainted with it.
The procedure which was followed yesterday was that the hon. Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) raised the matter, as you said, on a statement made by the hon. Member for Mid. Ulster (Miss Devlin) which the hon Gentleman said was partly inaccurate. Then, as I understand it, the hon. Gentleman wrote to you about it. The House does not know what it was that he conveyed to you in writing. You have now ruled upon it.
Does that mean that any hon. Member can raise a matter of privilege with you purely in writing, without first conveying it to the House? If it does, to most of us that is a complete change in our procedure. Ought we not to be prepared to submit ourselves to the discipline of raising accurately a point of privilege, presenting the evidence to the House, and handing it to you personally, as in my memory has always been done hitherto?
Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. He is quite right in calling attention to the other irregularities of this procedure.
The normal procedure is that, if any hon. Member wishes to raise with Mr. Speaker a prima facie question of privilege, he usually lets Mr. Speaker know before raising it in the House and sometimes takes advice from Mr. Speaker, or declines to take advice, as is the privilege of all hon. Members.
Yesterday, the hon. Member for West Ham, North raised suddenly a question of privilege. It was not quite clear to the Chair what the issue of privilege was, and the Chair had no documents before it. It was for that reason that I asked the hon Member for West Ham, North to submit to me some documents on which I could judge whether the question of privilege was involved.
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It is a most irregular proceeding. It is only by diligence and by research back to the year 1880 that we have found a precedent for what happened yesterday. I doubt whether a similar occasion will happen again.
Mr. Orme: Further to that point of order. Prior to the privilege issue being raised yesterday, an assurance was sought from the Leader of the House that the Minister concerned would make a statement on the matter. This was raised by the Leader of the Opposition and supported in all quarters. May I, through you, Mr. Speaker, ask the Leader of the House, following your Ruling, whether a statement will be made on the action which the Minister of Defence has taken?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Fred Peart): It is true that the Leader of the Opposition urged me to look into the matter and request the Secretary of State to make a statement today, or on Wednesday, when the Bill comes before the House This will be done tomorrow.
Mr. Roebuck: Further to that point of order. Mr. Speaker. May I seek your advice on this matter? As I understand, the complaint raised by my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) to the effect that there was a possible breach of privilege also implied that there was a breach of the law, inasmuch as the Bill of Rights states clearly that people would be in breach of the law if they sought to raise or keep a standing army in time of peace without the consent of Parliament.
Does the fact that the House is apparently to have a statement on this matter preclude any possible proceedings being initiated against those who have sought to raise an army in this way?
Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sure that the House is grateful to the hon. Gentleman for defending the Bill of Rights. The hon. Gentleman, or anyone who is fortunate enough to catch the eye of Mr. Speaker in tomorrow's debate, will have an opportunity of putting the point that he has raised.
Mr. Michael Foot: Further to the statement by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. Would he not consider and represent to the Minister of

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Defence that it would be much better if we had a statement before the debate so that we do not have this question intermingled with the general issues of the debate? In particular, if hon. Members feel that there has been an illegality or a breach of normal custom in this respect—after all, Parliament has supreme authority, because only this Parliament has the right to recruit armed forces in Northern Ireland—would it not be better to have a statement so that hon. Members can consider whether the debate should continue?
I urge my right hon. Friend to say that the proper way to deal with this matter is to have a statement to the House which we can consider and then proceed, if need be, to discuss the general principles of the Bill.
Mr. Speaker: Order. The Government will no doubt take notice of what the hon. Gentleman has said.
Mr. John Mendelson: On a point of order. There arises from the decision that you, Mr. Speaker, gave on privilege today, and reports in the Press this morning, a further serious question of procedure. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition asked for a statement to be made today. Many hon. Members on both sides of the House supported that request. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House did not commit himself. He said that a statement might he made today or before the debate or on the day of the debate. The House was certainly left with the impression that there would be a statement today [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It is within the hearing and recollection of the House. Those hon. Members who were here were left with the clear impression that there would be a statement today.
We read in some of the morning papers that, because of the question of privilege being raised by another hon. Member who did not raise the original complaint —the original complaint, the House will remember, was raised by the hon. Lady the Member for Mid-Ulster (Miss Devlin) —there had been consultations and that the Government have said that they prefer that a statement should not be made to-
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day. Is it not for you, Mr. Speaker, to safeguard the rights of the House and not to allow the question of privilege to interfere with the commitment given by the Leader of the House that a statement would be made today?
Mr. Peart: I think that I ought to correct the record. If my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson), whose views I always respect —[Laughter.] I do—reads HANSARD he will see that I was asked whether I would
"look into this matter and ask the Secretary of State to make a statement to the House tomorrow or deal with it when the Bill comes before the House on Wednesday?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th November, 1969; Vol. 791, c. 867.]
I have said that we will do this tomorrow. I hope that my hon. Friend will not continue the argument.
Mr. Mendelson: My submission was to you, Mr. Speaker, not to my right hon. Friend. I am asking whether it is not in your hands to protect the rights of the House? We understood that there would be a statement today. Was there any pressure on anybody? Have the Government expressed the view, as some newspapers report, that, because of the question of privilege having been raised, my hon. Friend the Minister of Defence for Administration should not make a statement today?
Mr. Speaker: Order. We cannot build on hypotheses. I must remind the hon. Gentleman that the Leader of the Opposition said:
"The House accepts your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, but may I ask the Leader of the House whether he will look into this matter and ask the Secretary of State to make a statement to the House tomorrow or deal with it when the Bill comes before the House on Wednesday?"
To that, the Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons replied:
"Yes, I give that assurance." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th November, 1969; Vol. 791, c. 867.]
That is the simple basis of fact. All that Mr. Speaker can do today is to rule on privilege, and privilege happens to be important, also.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  RENT (CONTROL OF INCREASES BILL)
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.55 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Ministry of Housing and Local Government (Mr. Denis Howell): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  Simply stated, this Bill has a double purpose. Part I enables the Housing Ministers to control rent increases made by local authorities if these increases exceed certain limits. Part II is designed to phase increases which may arise when the rents of private regulated tenancies are registered. I shall deal separately and in some detail with each of the two parts of the Bill.
  Before I do so I should like to make a general comment. There can be no doubt that, whatever views are held about prices and incomes policy, the powers that the Government took to intervene, where necessary, in the field of rents, have proved in practice to be advantageous for many families in the management of their budgets. Without these powers many households would have faced much greater difficulty. But prices and incomes policy is moving into a new phase and, clearly, the legislation that we need to replace the Prices and Incomes Act 1968, which expires at the end of the year, must reflect that fact.
  The Government, in the context of their prices and incomes policy, have been able to reach agreement with the local authority associations about the guidelines that should govern rent increases in the next 18 months. We attach great importance to this agreement. We consider that in the relationship between central and local government it is always preferable to proceed by co-operation and agreement. And the agreement itself will provide that amount of protection against unreasonable rent increases which we judge to be necessary for the proper protection of council tenants.
  Private tenants as well as council tenants—
  Mr. Arthur Jones: Before the Minister leaves that point, does he consider that the agreements that have been entered into between the Government and the representative bodies of the local authorities are binding on all the membership of all local authority associations?
  Mr. Howell: I shall deal with this point in some detail later. But, obviously, when local authority associations enter into agreements on behalf of their members it is automatically assumed that they are acting for all their members. I believe that to be the case here. However, I will deal with that point in some detail later.
  Private tenants as well as council tenants need protection against sharp rent increases. Here again, new measures are needed to continue to protect private tenants against the sharp increases which may arise when a regulated rent is registered.
  I now turn to Part I of the Bill. Before I come to the details of the agreement I must first remind the House of some of the history that governs local authority rents. By law, every housing authority has discretion to fix reasonable rents and to grant rent rebates. They have complete responsibility for fixing the rents of each dwell-intl. In other words, rent levels are the responsibility of the local housing authority. The Minister does not concern himself in detail with that responsibility which the authority, with its local knowledge, is much better placed to discharge than he is.
  Secondly, every local housing authority is under a duty to review rents and rebates from time to time and to make any necessary changes. This responsibility for increasing rents is one which involves more than local considerations. Rent is a major item in the budget of every council tenant and increases in local authority rents are relevant to any policy on prices and incomes.
  The three White Papers on Prices and Incomes Policy, issued in 1966 and 1967, emphasised the need to avoid or moderate rent increases wherever possible. I am glad to say that the great majority of local authorities followed the Government's advice. But during 1967 and early 1968 a few authorities used their statutory duty to review rents in order to make

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  or to propose rent increases which appeared to be incompatible with the advice which the Government had given.
  Accordingly, in December, 1967, the Government referred to the National Board for Prices and Incomes the question of the reasons for increases in council rents and the phasing of such increases, with particular reference to 21 named authorities which represented a cross-section of rent increases made or proposed at that time.
  When the Board reported in April, 1968, it recommended, among other things, that the weekly increase in average standard rents should not exceed 7s. 6d. per dwelling in a 12-month period, and that there should be a limit to the increase for any individual dwelling which would be consistent with such an average increase.
  In the light of the Board's report, my right hon. Friend, and my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales, took power in Sections 10 and 11 of the Prices and Incomes Act, 1968, to control local authority rent increases. In practice, Housing Ministers have allowed local authorities to increase rents only where a rent increase had to be made in order to meet unavoidable increases in costs, or to meet the cost of introducing or improving a rent rebate scheme.
  Moreover, it was made clear to authorities that, even where an increase was unavoidable, the average increase in any 12-month period ought not normally to be more than 7s. 6d. a week and the increase for any individual dwelling should not exceed 10s. a week. In fact, in only one case has the Minister agreed to a proposal from a local authority to increase rents by an average of more than 7s. 6d. a week. The other 14 proposals involving an average increase of more than 7s. 6d. a week were rejected.
  In fact, nearly all the proposals that we have received have involved an average increase of 7s. 6d. a week or less. The House may be interested in the figures. Altogether, 904 such proposals have so far been approved; 259 such proposals have been rejected, mainly because the authority concerned had not taken all the steps reasonably open to them to avoid the proposed rent increase —for example, by first making use of a
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  substantial housing account balance. But the Minister has not thought it reasonable to force an authority to make a rate fund contribution which was greater than it has normally made in recent years in order to ensure that rent increases average 7s. 6d. a week or less.
  The House will recall that. in 1968, the decision to control local authority rent increases was strongly opposed by the local authority associations and the Greater London Council. They regarded the control as an unjustified restriction of the statutory freedom of local authorities, and they opposed Ministerial scrutiny of rent increases.
  This is a traditional view, of course, and we well understand it. Indeed, it is fair to record that, for the 18 months in which the control powers have been in force, many authorities have not proposed any rent increases and, where they did, 77 per cent. of the proposed increases were accepted by the Minister as reasonable. Nearly three-quarters of these approved proposals involved increases averaging 5s. or less a week, and over a quarter involved increases averaging 2s. 6d. or less a week. But 273 proposals were rejected.
  The main reason for the rejections was that the authority concerned had balances, either in the housing revenue account or in the housing repairs account or in a housing equalisation account, which were sufficiently substantial to make it possible to avoid the proposed rent increase altogether or at least to moderate or postpone it
  Mr. Graham Page: At one point, the hon. Gentleman said that 259 proposals had been rejected and later he said that 273 had been rejected. I am not sure whether he is talking about the same set of rejections and whether in all the cases no increase was allowed.
  Mr. Howell: There are two different criteria for rejection, I think. I will see that this point is cleared up in the reply to the debate. In the first figure, I was referring to increases above 7s. 6d. a week and in the second to the general criteria, which involved housing balances and so on and which do not necessarily tie up with the figure of 7s. 6d. I will check my memory on that, however.
  As a result of the Minister's decision, these authorities have to run down

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  their balances, and after the end of this year very few authorities will be left with balances sufficient to enable them to avoid a rent increase if their costs rise. During the last few months, a much smaller proportion of proposals have been rejected than previously because fewer and fewer authorities had substantial balances to draw on.
  It is important to appreciate how much of the increased cost arising out of new building will be met by the extremely generous subsidies which my right hon. Friends introduced in 1967. They are the most generous housing subsidies ever made in this country. These subsidies should also enable authorities to meet the cost of soundly based rent rebate schemes. If we look at the comparative figures, we can appreciate the full extent of Government aid for local authority housing. In 1964–65, housing subsidies to local authorities in Great Britain totalled £92 million. By 1967–68, this had risen to £118 million, and this year the total is estimated to be £164 million.
  Mr. Frank Allaun: I appreciate very much the figures my hon. Friend has just given. Without them, council housing would have come to a complete stop. But is there not truth in the point made earlier today by my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Mapp), in that, in the first 18 months before the completion of the building of council houses, councils are having to pay the high market rates and not the 4 per cent. generously provided by the Government? If my hon. Friend would consider this point, it would remove very largely, I believe, these demands for increased rents which some councils are making.
  Mr. Howell: As the House knows, my right hon. Friend and other Housing Ministers are engaged in a comprehensive review of the whole question of housing finance. I undertake that the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun), which gives concern to some councils, will be one of the points included in the review.
  Under our Act, the subsidy this year is £144 for the typical new house outside London, which costs £4,000 altogether. That compares with a basic subsidy of £24 per new dwelling obtaining
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  when right hon. Members opposite were in Government.
  Mr. Peter Walker: To make a fair comparison, could the hon. Gentleman tell us what a present £4,000 house would have cost when the Conservatives were in power?
  Mr. Howell: There would not prove to have been so great an increase in percentage terms as for the increase in subsidy I have just referred to. I do not think that the hon. Member would challenge that the proportionate increase in the cost of a house bears no comparison with the proportionate increase in subsidy.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: Could I help with this figure?
  Mr. Howell: But a proportion—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. We cannot have two hon. Members on their feet at once. If the Minister of State does not give way, the hon. Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury (Mr. R. W. Brown) must resume his seat.
  Mr. Brown: In 1964, under the Tories, were were paying about £3,150 for a house which we are paying £4,000 for now. The increased subsidy from £24 to £144 more than matches the increased cost.
  Mr. Howell: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, as always, for his supporting evidence.
  In addition, the housing revenue account will in future have to meet any increased costs for repairs, modernisation, and management, and for the refinancing of maturing debt which has been incurred in the past for the construction of existing houses.
  Since I have given the House figures about Government housing subsidies, it is only right to mention the help which we are giving to domestic ratepayers through rate relief. This amounts this year to Is. 3d. in the £ in England, and 2s. 6d. in the £ in Scotland, and totals £82 million in all for Great Britain. Next year the reduction for domestic ratepayers will be ls. 8d. in the £ in England, and 3s. 4d. in the £ in Scotland, totalling £112 million for Great Britain.
  To complete the picture I should mention the benefit which owner-occupiers with a mortgage receive through tax

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  relief, since I think that we often become obsessed with subsidies to local authority tenants and neglect to complete the picture as to how the nation as a whole very properly makes arrangements to assist owner-occupiers, too. In 1969–70, this benefit is estimated to total about £224 million. On average, an owneroccupier with a mortgage will receive about £47 10s. by way of tax relief, about half as much again as the average subsidy per council tenant, which is £30 a year. I hope that that information will enable us to have balanced comment and discussion on this question.
  Mr. Eric Lubbock rose—
  Mr. Hugh Rossi rose—
  Mr. Speaker: The Minister must decide to whom to give way.
  Mr. Howell: It is always nice to see the Liberal Party present. I give way to the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock).
  Mr. Lubbock: I am always present. The hon. Gentleman says that he has completed the picture. Will he give the estimated Exchequer subsidy for 1969–70? He carried it only as far as 1968–69. Will he also give the cumulative total of transfers from the general rate fund to housing revenue account, and the global figure for the total amount spent on housing by public authorities?
  Mr. Howell: I cannot give all those figures off the bat—[Laughter.] I can understand hon. Gentlemen opposite not wishing to take this part of the debate very seriously. My answer to the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) is that the figure of £224 million which I gave was for 1969–70. That is the relevant and up-to-date comparison that one must make.
  Mr. Rossi rose—
  Mr. Howell: No. I must make some speed with my speech.
  As I have explained, after the end of this year many authorities will face increases in costs which will not be met by increased Exchequer subsidies, and they will no longer have substantial balances in their housing accounts. They will, therefore, either need to increase rents, or to
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  make a larger than normal rate fund contribution.
  I know that some of my hon. Friends take the view that certain costs which fall on the housing revenue account ought to be met by the community at large—open spaces, rent rebates, the cost of keeping the register, and so on—and ought, therefore, to be the subject of a rate fund contribution. I understand that point of view very well indeed. In practice, where there seems to be the strongest case for a rate fund contribution the authority concerned often makes such a contribution, and a substantial one at that, particularly at the present time in London. But this matter raises quite fundamental issues which, as I have explained, are being examined in the longer term review of housing finance upon which we have now embarked. That review may lead to a change in the law, but until it does the local authority is by law responsible for charging reasonable rents, and for maintaining a reasonable balance between tenants and ratepayers, and it has a statutory duty to meet from the rates any deficit on the housing revenue account which arises at the end of any financial year. The decision whether to meet an increase in costs from rents or rates must remain essentially one for the local authority.
  My right hon. Friends consider it right to leave responsibility for this decision with the local authority, subject to three qualifications which are crucial to a continued policy of restraint in rent increases. I should like to state these criteria as clearly as l can. First, no rent increase should be greater than is needed to meet increase in cost. Secondly, the rent increases should not be made to reduce the rate fund contribution below the level which is normal for the authority in question unless, as I am told often happens in Scotland, that level is so high that it no longer represents a reasonable balance of the interests of tenants and ratepayers. Thirdly, there must be a limit to the amount of any rent increase in any one year.
  As I said earlier, the Government have discussed this policy of restraint, based on these principles, with the local authority associations. The associations have noted the Government's policy, and in the light of it they have agreed to recommend to their members certain

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  guide lines for the 18 months that follow from the end of this year. The guide lines applicable in England and Wales have been set out in an agreement, the text of which my right hon. Friend gave on 6th November in a Written Answer to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Mr. Hooley).
  It may be convenient if I summarise this agreement upon which we place such importance. It provides that, for a sitting tenant, the standard rent, that is to say, the rent for the dwelling excluding any payment for rates, water rates, furniture and services, should be increased only to the extent necessary to meet unavoidable increases in costs falling to be met in the period covered by the agreement, or to meet the costs of introducing or improving a rent rebate scheme. Further, the agreement provides that rents should not normally be increased to reduce a rate fund contribution, but special consideration might be given where the contribution has become abnormally high in recent years.
  Then, in any 52-week period, no general increase in standard rents should involve an average increase of more than 7s. 6d. a week for the dwellings affected, and no increase for any individual dwelling should exceed 10s. a week except in exceptional circumstances. Finally, the agreement states the principle that the terms of an existing rebate scheme would not be varied to increase rental income. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has made a broadly similar agreement with the Scottish local authority association. Hon. Members will find the text of that agreement in the Answer which my right hon. Friend gave on 7th November to a Question by the hon. Member for Dunfermline Burghs (Mr. Adam Hunter).
  I turn, now, to the G.L.C.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: My hon. Friend has omitted an important matter, namely, those organisations which call themselves charity organisations. One charity in my constituency has chosen to double rents purely on the basis that it wants to increase the return on its capital for investment for the future. How will its tenants fare? When I asked about this my hon. Friend told me that he could do nothing about it.
  Mr. Howell: These charities are not covered by the local authority associations and the agreement that we have made with them. If they are doing what my hon. Friend alleges, they are operating on criteria other than those which I have been laying down. In essence, that is a Committee point, so perhaps we might deal with it at that stage.
  Mr. Julius Silverman: If these charities are housing associations, clearly they will not come in under either Part I or Part II of the Bill. I hope that my hon. Friend will consider that.
  Mr. Howell: We shall be prepared to examine any evidence of unreasonable increases in matters other than those with which the Bill seeks to deal.
  The G.L.C. is not represented by the local authority associations, and it was asked to accept the agreement. It has refused to do so. I very much regret that the G.L.C. has declined to be a party to this agreement, which has been accepted as reasonable by the associations representing every other housing authority in England, Scotland and Wales.
  The G.L.C. says that it cannot agree to limit rent increases to meet only unavoidable increases in costs. It is, in effect, saying that it reserves the right to increase rents by more than is necessary. One would hardly believe that it wishes to maintain this position, especially at the present time. At least, I did not think so until I read a letter in The Guardian today from the Chairman of the Greater London Council's Housing Committee. It is obviously a disturbing letter, for the attitude of mind it reflects. To start with, he pontificates about what local authorities and their members should be doing about a subject which I am not quite sure—since the Greater London Council is not a member of those bodies —he is any way qualified to speak about.
  Secondly, he proposes increases averaging £1 12s. 6d. for three years and then says:
  "In the event there has been only one 7s. 6d. increase since October 1967, which is well below the general level of increases in earnings."
  If that means anything at all, he seems to suggest that he believes that every time workers get an increase in their pay it should be immediately handed

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  over to the Greater London Council. Certainly, nowhere in his letter or in his thinking does any other consideration of any kind apply. It is a proposition which has only to be stated to be seen to be transparently absurd.
  The point must remain that, whichever Government are dealing with the economy, it must be accepted that very large increases of rent will inevitably lead to very large wage demands. However we deal with the economy, that situation must be faced by budgetary action of one scrt or another. It is impossible to divorce high rents and demands for large rent increases from the general effect they w 11 have on the economy as a whole.
  To that extent, I very much regret the letter, and I much more regret the thinking behind it, which I do not think to be in the national interest.
  Mr. Frank Allaun: As an example of what my hon. Friend is saying, may I quote to him a case of an employee of the House? A low-paid member of the catering staff, living in a twobedroomed G.L.C. flat, has to pay £9 a week.
  Mr. Howell: I am prepared to believe that. No doubt my hon. Friend will seek to make that point if he catches your eye, Mr. Speaker. The present policy is designed to get rent increases down to what is necessary under the present prices and incomes policy. It is very much in the interests of the country as a whole, whatever view we take about prices and incomes policy.
  A political gesture of this kind must not deter the Government from basing their policy on an agreement which has been accepted by the responsible representatives of all other local authorities. These associations have not entered on this agreement lightly. They cannot legally bind their members to observe it. But they have made a commitment which affects their members and they now have every interest in seeing that this commitment is honoured. I am certain that they will use their best endeavours to ensure that their members understand the terms of the agreement, and abide by them. If cases arise where we have reason to believe that the agreement has been departed from, we shall take it up with the authorities concerned and the associations.
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  The agreement envisages the possibility that an authority may wish, for good reason, to increase rents by more than the limits specified in the agreement. Under Part I of the Bill no authority will be able to increase rents above these limits unless it has made a formal proposal to the Minister, and obtained his permission under a procedure similar to that which applies to all rent increases under Section 10 of the Prices and Incomes Act, 1968. This power to control rent increases above these limits was recommended by the National Board for Prices and Incomes.
  For the purpose of the Bill a general rent increase is one involving more than 10 per cent. of the total stock of an authority in any 52-week period. An authority will need the Minister's permission to increase the rents of more than 10 per cent. of its houses by an average of more than 7s. 6d. a week in any 52-week period, and to increase the rent of any house by more than 10s. a week. My right hon. Friends do not expect to give such permission save in the most exceptional circumstances. In the Government's view, any increase above these limits is very difficult to reconcile with the continued need for moderation and restraint in rent increases.
  I would like to say just a few words about an aspect of rent policy which, I know, concerns many of my hon friends —the practice of applying general rent increases right across the board to both houses of reasonable quality and to substandard houses that are deficient of civilised standards and amenities. The Government's concern in the Bill is solely to ensure that increases in rents should not be steeper than necessary. The responsibility for deciding what differences there should be in the rents charged for dwellings cf different size, age and amenities remains entirely with the local authorities under their statutory duties. It is the authority which is responsible for deciding how a rent increase should be distributed among the houses in its stock.
  It will be seen that the Minister has no responsibility for the rents of individual dwellings or for rent structure. None the less, I would strongly urge local authorities to exercise their responsibility, within the limits set by the Bill, so

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  as to take appropriate account of differences in the type, age and amenity of their dwellings when they determine their rent policy. Failure to do so will obviously be a source of great concern to large numbers of their tenants.
  As to the duration of the Bill—
  Mr. R. W. Brown: Would my hon. Friend clarify the position for me? When he suggests that the Government control these rents, is he aware that the G.L.C., as was pointed out by an hon. Member opposite, cheated by encouraging people to move from one property to another and then putting the rent up to the maximum that it was going to put it up to before my right hon. Friend intervened? The tenant has only moved from one property to another, larger or smaller, as the case may be, and is forced to pay a very much higher rent.
  Mr. Howell: I am aware that the G.L.C. has a policy of reviewing rents when houses are to be relet. We have taken note of this, but the Government have no power to deal with that situation.
  If one needs more revenue, a case may be argued that it is a much more painless way of achieving it when the house is empty and before a new tenancy takes place. What I think concerns my hon. Friend—and I well understand this—is the considerable increase in rent assessment being made when lettings are made in the cases he mentioned.
  We may return to these matters in Committee. I know that they are all questions on which there is a great deal of concern among my hon. Friends, which I share. They are matters which must be determined by the electorate next April in the Greater London Council elections. I have no doubt that my hon. Friends will seek to draw the electors' attention to all these manifestations of undesirable activity that they believe to be going on in the G.L.C., and no doubt hon. Gentlemen opposite will seek to defend these policies. The proper place to do that in our democracy is the hustings.
  Mr. Lubbock: Why does the Bill contain no provisions to deal with the vast increases being imposed by some local authorities on the tenants of their estates departments which have always been exempted from the prices and in-
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  comes legislation, and are not in this Bill, either?
  Mr. Howell: I am not sure that I understand the hon. Gentleman's question. If he is referring to boroughs with tied houses, or tied cottages owned by local authorities—
  Mr. Lubbock: I was referring to estate departments.
  Mr. Howell: In any event, I undertake to look into the matter. I cannot say off the cuff exactly how far the point which the hon. Gentleman has in mind is covered by the Bill. I believe that such matters are covered by the agreement—
  Mr. Lubbock indicated dissent.
  Mr. Howell: —or the spirit of the agreement that has been entered into with local authority associations. It would be wrong to suggest that these associations have members who are anxious to break the agreement at the first moment. The Government believe that the local authority associations and their members will seek to abide by the terms and spirit of the agreement.
  The powers in Part I, at least for the time being, are a necessary part of prices and incomes policy, and are required to ensure that measure of restraint in local authority rent increases which the Government regard as essential at the present time. But as prices and incomes policy develops, it is possible that the Government and Parliament will wish to review the need for such powers. If that occasion should arise before 30th June, 1971, the existence of the order-making power in Clause 1 would give to Housing Ministers the opportunity of bringing the whole issue before the House, and the House would have the opportunity of taking a decision on it.
  The provisions of Part II of the Bili deal with the control of increases in rent in the private sector. I claim at once that in the sphere of privately rented property, the Labour Government have done a great deal to give better protection to tenants in the occupation of privately rented dwellings and to control excessive rents.
  As soon as we came to power in 1964 we passed the Protection from Eviction Act, which prohibited the eviction of anyone in lawful possession of residential

  1137
  premise of every kind without an order of the court. This was followed by the Rent Act, 1965, which made it a criminal offence to try to get rid of a tenant by harassment; that is, by the use of force or threats of force or interference with his home or possessions.
  Hon. Members will remember the notorious Rent Act, 1957, under which so many families lost their protection and their homes. The Rent Act, 1965, brought this to an end by bringing back into protection all unfurnished tenancies of houses, flats and rooms with a rateable value of up to £400 in London and £200 elsewhere in Great Britain—that is, all those which had been decontrolled in 1957, when the Conservatives governed the country, and more.
  They had to be brought back under control and we took immediate steps to stop what had become a national scandal. [HON. MEMBERS: "0h."] Hon. Gentlemen opposite may tut-tut, but when we brought them back under control they did not oppose the Measure which we introduced to do the job. They had to lace the fact that the free market in housing which the "Brooke Act" had been designed to produce was a failure in practice and that urgent steps had to be taken to withdraw from that situation.
  These tenancies became regulated tenancies, and the 1965 Act froze their rents at their then current level and provided that they could be increased only by the registration of a "fair rent" by the newly established rent officer service.
  It may be helpful if I remind the House of the outlines of the rent regulatiol system which we established by the Rent Act, 1965—now consolidated into the Rent Act, 1968—under which fair rents are determined by rent officers appointed under that Act. Either landlord or tenant can apply to the rent officer—there are about 300 in the country—for a registration of a fair rent, and if either party thinks that the rent fixed by the rent officer is unfair, there is an appeal to a rent assessment committee.
  Rent officers and committees, in determining a fair rent, must have regard to the age, character, locality and state of repair of the premises and the circumstances generally, other than the personal
  1138
  circumstances of the parties. They must, however, discount any value arising from scarcity, so that where scarcity exists the fair rent will be below the market rent.
  The system of rent regulation has now been operating for nearly four years and my right hon. Friend, together with the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales, have appointed a committee under the distinguished chairmanship of Mr. Hugh Francis with terms of reference providing, among other things, for a review of the operation rent regulation, especially in large centres of population where accommodation is scarce. I know that the committee is anxious to complete its task as urgently as possible, though obviously we do not want to set the committee a hard and fast deadline, since to do so might prevent it from doing its job thoroughly. We are grateful to the members of the committee for taking on this task.
  The House will recall that the Prices and Incomes Act, 1968, among other things, gave Housing Milisters the power to put a limit on the amount by which the rent for a regulated tenancy could be increased each year following the registration of a new rent. The increase in the first year was limited to 10s. per week, the remainder being added in two further annual instalments, or, if the registration was made in 1969, in one further instalment on the anniversary of the first increase. This Act, while framed primarily in an economic context, represented a further step in the protection of tenants from undue hardship or difficulties.
  As the House knows, the Prices and Incomes Act expires on 31st December, so that without this Bill rent increases following registrations made from 1st January, 1970 onwards would not have to be phased, but the full amount could be charged straightaway, which we believe would be wrong in the circumstances of today. An analysis of the figures for England and Wales in the first and second quarters of 1969 show that of first registrations resulting in increases, 52 per cent. involved an increase of more than £1 a week, including 17 per cent. of more than £2 per week.
  The Government's view is that sharp increases of rent must be avoided, both in the context of the general policy on

  1139
  prices and incomes and, more especially, because of the hardship they can cause. Accordingly, the purpose of this part of the Bill is to continue the phasing of rent increases for a further period of two years; it will cover rent increases registered in 1970 and 1971.
  The system of phasing closely follows that adopted in the Housing Act, 1969. The Bill provides that for a rent increase registered in 1970 one-third of the increase—or 7s. 6d. a week if greater—is added at once, another third, or 7s. 6d., a year later, and the balance a year after that, in 1972. For a rent increase registered in 1971, one-third, or 7s. 6d., is added at once, and the balance would be added one year later, though this could be reviewed in the light of the eventual decision on whether phasing of sharp increases is to be extended again from 1972 onwards.
  The Government are satisfied that continuance of phasing of sharp rent increases in the private sector serves a worthwhile economic and social purpose, and consider that it should remain with us for at least another two years. This is a longer period of control than is at present proposed for local authority rent increases, but the two types of control are quite different.
  In the case of local authorities, the issue is whether existing rents should be increased beyond a certain amount. In the case of the private landlord, the amount of the increased rent for the dwelling is already fixed. The point at issue is the phasing of this increase.
  The Bill, taken as a whole, deals with a problem which affects the welfare of millions of tenant families. I believe that it does so in a way which is practical, fair and humane.
  4.40 p.m.
  Mr. Graham Page: I am sure that the House is grateful to the Minister of State, especially as I believe this is the first occasion when he has had the opportunity in that appointment to present a housing Bill to the House. His speech can be a matter for congratulation, but his appointment is a matter of commiseration, because I can assure the hon. Gentleman that he has now "got the skids on".
  1140
  The right hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) was appointed Minister of State at the Ministry of Housing and Local Government in 1967, and a year later he was on the back benches. The hon. and learned Member for Derby, North (Mr. MacDermot) was appointed Minister of State in 1967. and within a year he was on the back benches. The right hon. Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. K. Robinson) had the same job but a new name, Minister of Planning and Land, and within a year he was on the back benches. The present Minister of State, within a year, will perhaps not even be on the back benches, because a General Election might intervene. Nevertheless, we thank him for his explanation of the Bill and the history behind it.
  This sad story of Ministers of State at the Ministry of Housing and Local Government is a measure of the Government's failure in their housing policy. Those Ministers tried to interpret and to administer a housing policy which was doomed to failure from the outset. Only recently the Minister of Housing and Local Government admitted that fewer houses were being built this year and that fewer will be built next year than in 1964 when the Labour Government took office. The way the Government have dealt with their housing programme has been like a game of snakes and ladders. They are now on a square which say "Go back five years", and they are back to square one. Those unfortunate Ministers who held the office of Minister of State are now not on square one; they are not even on the board.
  That was just as much an admission of failure in the Government's housing policy as the Bill before us is an admission of failure. That policy as put before the electorate by almost every Labour candidate at the last General Election was a policy for cheaper houses, but this Bill is in place of Part III of the Prices and Incomes Act, 1968. The right hon. Lady who is now First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity said, when introducing Part III of the 1968 Act, which deals with rents:
  "now I turn to rents. These form a crucial part of family budgets—indeed, by far the biggest element in the increase which has taken

  1141
  place in the retail index since the middle of 1966 has been the cost of housing, which has risen by no less than 10 points during this period."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st May, 1968; Vol. 765, c. 310.]
  Whose fault was that? It was, of course, the fault of the general policy of the Government and its effect on housing that the cost of housing had risen so much during that period. We have now to repeat the Prices and Incomes Act, 1968. Otherwise, by reason of the further increase in the cost of housing, whether capital cost or rental cost, the Government think that any reasonable increase in rents would be crippling to the tenants. We think that the damage from such a restriction is greater than any hardship that is brought on the tenants, or that the hardship can be alleviated—where it—exists in another way.
  The Bill provides for subsidies to tenants, both in the public and the private sectors. They are not, of course, straightforward subsidies out of the Exchequer, which would be at least logical when the Government's mistakes have caused the need for such a subsidy. It would be logical that the taxpayer, the public in general, should pay, but, whereas the Minister of State talked of generous subsidies which have been given out of the taxpayers' money, the Bill is a housing subsidies Bill which enforces a section of the public, not the general taxpayers, to pay those subsidies. In one case it is the ratepayer who is to pay the subsidies and in the other it is the landlord of private property.
  Let there be no mistake. The Bill says that the tenant shall not pay such-and-such a rent; he shall not pay rent above a certain figure. Rent is in great part a payment for the maintenance of property. Maintenance will have to be paid for—
  Mr. Julius Silverman: Interest on capital.
  Mr. Page: Rent is a return on capital, whether public or private capital, but in a great part it is a payment for maintenance of the property and maintenance will have to be paid for whether or not the rent is received. Most local authorities keep proper reserves for this purpose. In the past couple of years, when there have been restrictions on the rents, they have had to run down their balances. I am told that during the coming year and the 18 months of the
  1142
  Bill, as it affects local authorities, there will have to be an extremely serious rundown of those balances unless the Minister is very free in giving his consent to increases in rents.
  Let us look at Part I in more detail. It affects local authorities and Part II affects private tenants. Part I is to last for 18 months. I am a little suspicious of this subject being taken out of the prices and incomes provisions in general, and put into a separate Bill. It looks as if we are working towards a permanent law on this subject, rather than dealing with it as merely a temporary matter of prices and incomes. We had some sort of an assurance from the Minister that that was not intended, bat it always looks gravely suspicious when a subject has to be put in a separate Bill of this sort instead of being dealt with generally under prices and incomes.
  Under the Bill, local authorities will be deprived of exercising their judgment in the management of their properties. There must be no increase of more than 7s. 6d. on average and no increase of more than 10s. a week as a maximum without obtaining the Minister's consent. There is a sort of rule-of-thumb concerning 7s. 6d. and 10s. and then the House is asked to say to local authorities, "You shall not charge more than these amounts. If the economic rent of your houses comes to a greater amount, you must get it from the ratepayers, or cut the maintenance of the houses, or you draw right down to the bone upon your reserves".
  It must be one or another of those things, because the local authority has by law to keep its housing revenue account solvent. Whichever it is, it is a very serious matter, both for the ratepayers and for the tenants, and for the constitution, the relationship between central and local government. There is no doubt that it constitutes a setback in the trend, which one had hoped was proceeding now, of giving local government more and more responsibility.
  The Minister of State said that rent levels were the responsibility of local authorities, which were much better fitted to discharge that responsibility than was the Minister. The hon. Gentleman spoke of guidelines. Those in the Bill seem to be more like dog leashes than guidelines, because little discretion is left to

  1143
  local authorities to manage their own housing affairs. This is a real setback to what we hoped Parliament would recognise as desirable, namely, local authorities having greater power to manage their own affairs.
  Mr. Denis Howell: I agree with the hon. Gentleman's general thesis about the desirability of not intervening, where it can be avoided, in what is essentially a local government function. However, he will appreciate that there is a national interest element in this policy which must be pursued. Will he tell us where, in the present economic situation, the national interest lies in the matter of rent increases?
  Mr. Page: To start with, the Government themselves created this position. The position will not be cured by disallowing reasonable rent increases. [HON. MEMBERS: "Reasonable?"] Hon. Members opposite surely are not suggesting that local authorities are on the whole unreasonable bodies. They are elected by electors to manage their own properties. As the Minister admitted, they are much better fitted to discharge those responsibilities than is the Minister.
  Mr. Lubbock: Is the letter written by the Chairman of the G.L.C.'s Housing Committee, to which the Minister referred and which is published in this morning's The Guardian, reasonable, in the hon. Gentleman's opinion?
  Mr. Page: From what I heard of the Minister of State's reference to the letter, it seemed to me that the G.L.C. is charging reasonable rents over a broad front, that there are reductions here and increases there, and that, on average, they are reasonable rents for enabling the council to maintain its properties and reserves.
  On the question of taking away the authority of local councils, I want to refer to a speech made by the Prime Minister at the annual conference of the Association of Municipal Corporations, two months and one day ago, in which he said this:
  "One of the objectives of reorganisation"—
  the Prime Minister had been talking about the Maud Report—
  "is to redress changes which have occurred in recent years in the balance between local and central government."
  1144
  The Prime Minister went on to speak of "a progressive policy of greater decentralisation from Whitehall".
  Quite apart from Maud, he said this:
  "In advance of the structural reform on which we are all determined, I accept that it is a common—yes, and in many cases a justified—complaint that local authorities are subject to too many central controls … Ministers are called upon to intervene unnecessarily, both as regards the way in which authorities organise their domestic affairs, and the way in which they carry out their statutory functions …
  It is my hope that the reorganisation of local government will provide an opportunity and the incentive—and that this opportunity will be taken—for a fresh attack on this problem of central financial control, so that we can reduce the number of points on which decisions are taken by Ministers, even by Parliament. I assure you that on this, as on the basic conclusions of Maud which the Government have already accepted, we mean business, as I know you do."
  We now see that the sort of business which the Prime Minister meant was greater control over local authorities in the management of their properties.
  It is significant that the two items of local authority legislation announced by the Government in their programme for this Session are both restrictive of the powers of local authorities. I refer to the items relating to education and to rents.
  Mr. Denis Howell: What my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister put forward as policy is exactly what the Bill proposes, that every rent increase should no longer have to come to Housing Ministers for approval, but that there should be a general long-stop approval, which is highly desirable to counteract the danger of local authorities acting against the general national interest.
  Mr. Page: Is that exactly what the Bill proposes? 7s. 6d. a week is to be the limit within which the local authorities can use their discretion.
  Mr. Denis Howell: Will the hon. Gentleman answer the question put to him by the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock)? If he thinks that 7s. 6d. is an unreasonably low amount on which to fix the general ceiling, what does he think is a reasonable amount?
  Mr. Page: A reasonable amount is a reasonable amount for the particular district about which one is talking. One of my main complaints about the Bill is

  1145
  that it fixes a rule-of-thumb figure of 7s. 6d. when 7d. 6d. need not necessarily apply to the Greater London Council as well as to Little Tidmarsh, or some other small local authority. A rule-of-thumb figure ought not to be applied in this way. Local authorities should be able to say what is proper for their own districts.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: What about what is suggested for London?
  Mr. Page: I am not giving any particular figure. I am not a spokesman for the G.L.C. I am speaking in the House of Commons, not at the Greater London Council. It is for the Greater London Council to decide how to manage its own properties.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: The G.L.C. leader has said that the increase should be 30s. a week. Does the hon. Gentleman suggest that that is right?
  Mr. Page: The Minister of State spent a considerable time delivering his speech, and I do not want to detain the House for any longer than I need, otherwise the Front Benches will be accused of monopolising the time of the House.
  One thing that the Minister said was very misleading. He said that the contents of the Bill, whatever the agreement may be between the Minister and local authorities, showed that the provisions of the Bill were acceptable to all local authorities as reasonable. I have here a copy of a letter sent by the Secretary of the Association of Municipal Corporations to members of the association. If this letter correctly describes the agreement and the negotiations for agreement between the A.M.C. and the Minister, what the Minister said about all authorities accepting the Bill as reasonable was very misleading.
  The letter first speaks about Sections 10 and 11 of the 1968 Act expiring and then says:
  "The Minister indicated to the Association that as an alternative to the existing legislation, which requires Government consent to all rent increases, he would be prepared to reach an agreement with the local authority Associations which would substitute for the present requirements a form of voluntary restraining. This would be a transitional arrangement, since the Government wished to revert as soon as possible to the traditional position whereby the fixing of council house rents is entirely a matter for local discretion."
  1146
  On the promise that this restriction was to go in due course, the association is recommending its members to agree to a form of transitional restraint. The secretary goes on to say:
  "The General Purposes Committee of the Association considered the Minister's proposition against the background that the continuation of the prices and incomes policy must be regarded as a matter for the Government and that limitation of rent increases is a declared part of that policy."
  Then, this phrase is significant:
  "Without becoming in any way a party to decisions on these matters, or endorsing them, the Committee came to the conclusion that the Association should subscribe to an agreement, on the understanding that limited reserve powers only will be taken by the Government in place of the existing general powers of control."
  There we see the reason for the agreement. I have some letters from leaders of councils, in one of which it is very well expressed, I think—that they agreed to this because Ford open prison was better than Wormwood Scrubbs, that they were prepared to go along with the Government on releasing tin restrictions to some extent.
  After all, one has to remember what the councils were subject to under Section 10 of the 1968 Prices and Incomes Act:
  "Except in such cases ar d subject to such conditions as may be prescribed by any direction of the Minister, it shall not be lawful for a local authority to charge in respect of any houses to which this section applies rents exceeding the former rents, unless the increases accord with proposals submitted to and passed by the Minister under this section."
  So, under the existing law, they are wholly restricted. Under the Minister's proposals they saw a slight relief, particularly in the question of delay in raising the rents by small amounts. Previously, when they had to apply to the Minister every time, there was considerable delay and loss to the local authority. Therefore, they evidently thought that half a loaf was better than none and agreed to these proposals.
  I now summarise our opposition to Part I. We think that it is an arbitrary limitation of council house rents, and is a dangerous interference with the responsibilities of local councils to run their own affairs, with which Parliament and the people who elected them have entrusted those local authorities. We consider it a dangerous temptation to cut the standards of maintenance of council houses

  1147
  and the standard of repair, when the local authorities are forced to run down their reserves to the extent that they have been forced to do by the Minister's policy over rents.
  We think that this will result in further subsidies by the ratepayers to council tenants and a probable increase in rates, which may in the end, of course, defeat the purpose of the prices and incomes legislation. It is merely spreading an increase over a number of people instead of allotting it to a few—[HON. MEMBERS: "0h."] Perhaps I can deal with that interjection now, although I was coming to the point later. If there really are tenants who have not the means to pay the increase, these can be dealt with by rebate schemes by the local authorities. That is surely the right and proper method.
  Part II is the restriction on increases in the rents of private tenants. I should remind the House at once that this is not a restriction upon a landlord increasing rent at his own whim. There is already plenty of restriction on that. This is a prohibition upon a landlord charging a rent which has been decided by an independent person, the rent officer, or possibly an independent tribunal, the rent assessment committee, as a fair rent. This is defined in Section 46 of the 1968 Act, which says that it should take into account the age and condition of the property but not the scarcity value. This has been accepted on both sides of the House as a fair rent between landlord and tenant.
  The whole purpose of the previous Rent Act, in 1965, which created the regulated tenancies, was to prevent property falling into decay through lack of proper return to the landlord who had to manage that property. The Minister made what I would call some brave statements on Second Reading of the 1969 Housing Bill. He admitted that property was falling into decay because of controlled rents, since the rents from it were insufficient to maintain our stock of housing as we would wish it maintained, and that, for that reason, he would set up a system for discovering what would be a fair rent between landlord and tenant.
  This was carefully defined in the Rent Acts, 1965 and 1968. It provides enough for maintenance. It abolishes the previous
  1148
  subsidy which a landlord had to pay on controlled property and it leaves out the question of any scarcity value, which if taken into account might cause hardship on the tenant. If the landlord is not entitled for a period of years to charge a fair rent, there must logically be an unfairness to the landlord. Perhaps that does not impress hon. Members opposite. But it is also an unfairness to the tenant, because it is a great temptation to a landlord, who is not receiving a fair rent, not to keep up the standard of maintenance of his property. It is a foolish economy to insist upon a landlord not taking a fair rent and, therefore, not keeping his property in order. With one hand, the Government have been giving improvement grants under the Housing Act 1969 and, with the other, they are now encouraging a lack of maintenance of property.
  Why impose an even greater restriction on charging a fair rent than is being imposed on a local authority charging a rent which it decides upon? In Part II, there is a longer period of restraint than under Part I.
  We oppose Part II, because it deals with cases in which an independent tribunal has decided what is a fair rent between landlord and tenant; if it is not paid, there is the risk of the property not being properly maintained. That is a disadvantage to the tenant as much as to the landlord.
  Mr. David Weitzman: What would the hon. Gentleman suggest as the rent for these regulated tenancies? Should they be raised ad lib or what?
  Mr. Page: A fair rent. I am sorry if I have not made myself clear. I have tried to say that what the landlord is now entitled by law to charge is a fair rent and that if the tenant thinks that it is not fair he can go to the rent officer and have it decided—or the landlord can go himself. But under the Bill, the landlord will be told, "After a rent officer has decided and registered a tenancy as a regulated tenancy, with a fair rent, not for two years are you allowed to get that return from your property."
  As the cost of living changes every year and always rises under this Government, in two years that fair rent may be out of date. In fact, one can go back

  1149
  to the rent officer every three years to have a new fair rent fixed. It distorts the whole system set up under the Rent Acts, which I admit is working very well and fairly between landlord and tenant.
  I was doubtful about it when it was introduced, but I readily admit that it has worked reasonably between the parties. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman wants to know who wrote the fair rent system. It was not this Government, but the property associations—[Interruption.] Yes, it certainly was.
  This is a bad Bill. It will not achieve its purpose within the prices and incomes legislation. The Bill is damaging to local authorities in their responsibilities; it is damaging to local authority tenants; it is damaging to the whole system of landlord and tenant, as much to the tenant as to the landlord.
  5.10 p.m.
  Mr. Julius Silverman: If I support this Bill with less than enthusiasm, it is for precisely the opposite reasons to those advanced by the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page). My view, and that of a number of my hon. Friends, is that the protections given in the Bill, both to council and private tenants, are not adequate to meet the situation. A number of the points of inadequacy may well be more suitable for Committee stage, but I will set them out in my speech.
  Basically, I think that a policy which allows for an annual increase, not a once for all increase, of 7s. 6d. in rent—10s. in the case of an individual house—year after year, is much to great a latitude to allow a local authority. It cannot be just ified by any increase in costs and it is inconsistent with any policy of prices and wages control, or even income restraint, and will not, therefore, be acceptable to the great majority of council house tenants, who have already shown their resentment of what is taking place in London and many other places. Thus, both Parts I and II of the Bill are not adequate.
  There are other aspects which again may be dealt with in Committee but one of them is that new houses are to be excluded entirely from any sort of control —and, indeed, not only new houses. New tenancies are excluded from control
  1150
  either with or without the Minister's permission.
  My hon. Friend the Minister of State rightly said that, when a tenant gets his tenancy for the first time, he is reasonably happy about it, at any rate for the first few months, because he has a new house. But what about the person who had an exchange? This is an extremely sore point with hundreds and thousands of tenants. When a tenant gets an exchange, he is treated in the new house as a new tenant and his rent goes up. He may be paying 10s. or 1 Is. a week more than the person next door. This is penalisation of the person who wants to transfer and it is unjustified and resented. I hope that this matter will be corrected in Committee.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: The G.L.C. reckons that it gets 2 per cent. voids a year, equivalent to over 5,000 properties. There are also 8,000 mutual transfers. Between them, these figures will account for over 13,000 properties a year which will not be permitted to be endorsed by the Minister.
  Mr. Silverman: I would have thought that many authorities' voids and relets are higher than 2 per cent., but I agree that these houses are entirely outside the control of the Bill.
  In my area there are two large areas not of redevelopment, but of new road construction. A large number of people on the Aston expressway have had to leave their houses. Some of them did not want to do so but the houses were taken over by the local authority and were regarded as technically unfit, whether they were actually unfit or not. The tenants had to go to council houses and, because they are technically new tenants, they have to pay 1 ls. more in rent per week than their neighbours. Both they and I think that this is unfair. I protested to the Birmingham housing department, but did not get anywhere. This is another matter which should be corrected.
  The whole question of rents and how local authority rents are made up should be reviewed by the Government. People talk about council tenants being subsidised. But on an examination of the figures I wonder how many are so subsidised? Very few of them are. I agree

  1151
  that there are difficulties in London because of the high cost of land and building and in Scotland rents have always been used to subsidise low wages. That is fairly general there. But, when one examines the accounts of most local authorities in Britain, which give very little in rent subsidy—some a few coppers, some nothing—one finds that to talk of a so-called subsidy is unrealistic.
  What is in the housing revenue account? The Minister mentioned one or two things like rebates. It is astonishing to see what is in the housing revenue account. It reminds me of the well-known song about the quartermaster's store and all the things one finds in it. For example, let us consider the cost of slum clearance. This has nothing to do with sitting council tenants, but it is in the housing revenue account. The cost of patching up houses under the 1954 Act is again in the housing revenue account. The cost of community services is frequently in the housing revenue account, although local authorities tend to differ in their practices. A large part of the cost of road construction, which is normally borne by ratepayers as a whole and not by the owner-occupier, for instance, is in the housing revenue account. The cost of development of an estate, apart from the main roads, is in the housing revenue account. The cost of various amenities, which in other cases are borne by the ratepayers as a whole, if they are part of a development of an estate, is in the housing revenue account.
  The hon. Member for Crosby mentioned rebates. It is morally wrong that the rebates given to people in hardship should be borne exclusively by other council tenants. I do not see how that can be justified. Even my hon. Friend the Minister of State has said that the Government subsidy should be used for this purpose. As he said, the Government subsidy to the local authority tenants corresponds to the mortgage relief given to owner-occupiers, and if the owner-occupier is entitled to mortgage relief without any question of a means test—indeed, far from that, the more he pays, the higher the price of the house, the greater the relief he gets on his mortgage—I do not see why a local authority tenant should not get the same benefit without any question of a means test.
  1152
  I remind the House that the position in relation to mortgage relief was even worse until the Government introduced the mortgage option scheme, because the person at the bottom of the scale did not get anything at all. It was thus a means test in reverse, in a sense. In the Finance Act, 1969, it is clear that this sort of relief of debt repayment applies exclusively to debts incurred for housing purposes. It is, as I have said, therefore logical that rebates should be financed not by council tenants alone but by the whole of the community. If we decide on any further form of relief for any section of the community, it should be provided by the community as a whole.
  The cost of houses under construction, the land and the building in the pipeline, is also borne on the housing revenue account. In Birmingham, this amount is about £30 million and that has to be financed and serviced by existing council tenants who are paying not just for their own houses, but for all the houses to be built in future. That is wrong, and it is another matter to be dealt with when the Government review housing finance.
  A considerable amount of what is paid every year is not merely the payment of interest, but debt redemption. In Birmingham this amounts to about £2,500,000 out of the housing revenue account. In substance, while the owner-occupier is buying a house for himself, the council tenant is buying for the ratepayers as a whole. This, too, should be considered to see how much of this should accrue to the council tenant and whether the whole should be handed over to the local authority. All these matters should be reviewed. There should be a new method of assessing council accounts to decide what is due from the community and what from council tenants. I am in favour of council tenants paying fair rents, but let us first decide what is due from them and what should be paid for by the local authority. If this were clearly set out, there would be less talk about council tenants being subsidised by the community.
  Part II of the Bill does not go far enough. For instance, if a registered rent is to take effect in 1971, the delay may be for only a year, which may mean that a tenant will pay an increase of 7s. 6d. in the first year and the rest of the increase will then overate within one

  1153
  year, and that amount could be substantial. Over the great majority of the country the Rent Act is working reasonably well. The trouble is that it is precisely in the areas where there is acute shortage that there are great and unjustified increases in regulated rents. The fact that the hon. Member for Crosby pays tribute to the way in which the Act is working is hardly the best commendation from my point of view.
  To some extent, many of us are disappointed with the way in which the Act has worked in Birmingham and particularly with the way in which it has worked in London. For instance, the rent of a terraced house with no special amenities in places like Tottenham and other London suburbs may rise from 35s. to as much as £4 10s. The scarcity element cannot possibly have been excluded by the rent assessment committees in fixing such a rent.
  This subject has been raised on a number of occasions. As the Minister has said, it is now being considered by the Francis Committee. All the Bill does is to hold the increase in a regulated rent to 7s. 6d. in the first year; in the second year the rest of the increase will be added.
  The Bill is better than nothing and I shall vote for it, but I do not believe that it goes anywhere near as far as it should.
  5.25 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Silvester: I am immensely depressed, more than enraged, by the Bill. Time and again, we have the same kind of housing debate. Constantly one side of the House lauds the council tenant and the other is put into the position of not doing so. Over and over again in housing debates, the people of the country are divided into two classes.
  This kind of debate is and has always been sterile; it will never solve the problems of housing. The United Nations figures show that this country devotes less capital to housing than any other country in Western Europe, and our record for all the years since the war—and I am not making a party point—is not one about which we can crow. The question we must ask is what policies the parties are pursuing which are most likely to solve the housing problem which remains
  1154
  with us. That is why the Bill is so immensely depressing.
  The speeches from the Government side so far have been in a familiar strain. It sounds warm and comforting to talk about restrictions of rent increases, and to do so naturally produces a response from those who have to pay them. But it does nothing to solve the problem of diverting and maintaining resources into solving the housing problem, and the Bill will make the position even worse.
  It is not only council tenants who are faced with rent increases. I am sorry if it offends hon. Members opposite if I say so, but all sorts of people have been feel ing the draught because of the policies which the Government have pursued. Between 1964 and the current year, the average spent by a council tenant or a person in a privately rented house has gone up by a third, but the amount spent by those buying their houses on mortgages has increased by 54 per cent.; I therefore hope that the debate will not degenerate into assertions that only council tenants or tenants of privately rented property are feeling a cold wind against which we must protect them.
  The awful fact of the matter is that the whole country is going through a storm. The Bill will produce a tremendously cumbersome Government machine to protect tenants from a wind which everyone is feeling, not only in housing, but in other respects. We have to judge the Bill against this sort of criterion.
  The law governing the cost of housing is extremely arbitrary. The amount of rent which anyone may pay depends entirely on the legal status of the house he happens to occupy and how long he happens to have occupied it. It has no rhyme or reason. It depends not on his income and not even particularly on the amenities of the house. It is something which has been foisted on the population by a jumble of Acts added one after another, and this is the latest. We must ask ourselves whether any rent Bill is likely to lead us from that to a better position.
  The better approach is to find a housing policy sanely based on a situation in which the amount of money devoted to housing produces a sufficient number to meet the housing need and in which those people and only those people unable to pay a market rent receive a

  1155
  subsidy or support of some kind. That is probably a policy on which both sides could agree. It is not a policy which will be enhanced by the Bill.
  Mr. Julius Silverman: Would the hon. Gentleman extend his observations to say that the same provision ought to be applied to the owner-occupier who gets mortgage relief—that should not get that relief unless he could prove that his means were inadequate?
  Mr. Silvester: The hon. Member misunderstands me. There are all sorts of reasons why we can introduce encouragements for one kind of housing or another. I am not suggesting that there should be no encouragement to those who build council houses. This is one reason for the different kinds of subsidy. I did not say that we should withdraw encouragement to owner-occupiers by way of Income Tax relief. 1 think that there is a case for extending the encouragement to those occupying privately-rented houses, by means of a tax depreciation on privately-rented accommodation, although that is not my party's policy. It is just something I believe in. The housing situation is such that I would not necessarily take away inducements in any one area. We should try to spread this around.
  This Bill will not encourage people to provide housing. Take my own local authority. At the beginning of this rateable year, there was a rate contribution of £450,000. The going rate as the year develops is now running at £850,000. So, according to the Minister's criteria, we are already doing more than we should, because on the basis of the Bill we are not apparently to be asked to pay more rate contribution than we have traditionally done, yet we are already contributing nearly double the rate we paid earlier in the year. Even if a rent increase is introduced, and no such proposal has been put forward, if it were an increase of 7s. 6d., we would still be paying next year at the rate of £850,000 —double what we were paying at the beginning of this year.
  If the Government wish to indulge in that sort of policy, then they cannot ask the ratepayers of Waltham Forest to bear the extra burden. It is Government policy and they must take the responsibility.
  1156
  How we find anyone to stand in local government these days, I do not know. The problems facing them are enormous. If we were to ask my local authority to save £100,000 for example on education, it would have to scratch its head and there would be a great deal of hooh-hah in the local Press. The net result would be that after a great deal of trouble we might save that amount from the rates. We are now being asked to provide four and a half times that amount for a policy over which we have no control. That does not seem to be reasonable.
  It is no good the Government saying that we are doing a great thing for the council tenants by putting a stop on the amount of increase in the rents which they will have to pay, but at the same time ignoring the effect which this is having on the other services of the borough by an addition to the rates. I doubt whether this kind of policy will help anyone. I have spoken already about my borough. In addition, the Greater London Council is now facing a rate contribution of £8 million. We are talking about enormous sums of money which could be diverted to other uses within the borough, but which is being restricted to this kind of housing because of a policy imposed by the Government.
  Mr. Stan Newens: Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that in the London Borough of Waltham Forest the present level of council house rents is very high and many tenants are unable to meet the outgoings demanded of them on the sort of earnings which many of them are bringing home? In those circumstances something must be done. Will he indicate to the House what he thinks should be done?
  Mr. Silvester: I am happy to agree with the hon. Member. The result of these policies has been to impose an enormous strain upon the income of many council tenants. That intervention has not solved the problem a bit. I suppose that we are not allowed visual aids in the House, but if the hon. Member will refer to the Prices and Incomes Board Report on rent increases of local authorities he would see that one of the profound reasons for the increases has been the increase in interest charges to which local authorities have been subjected.

  1157
  This is not something over which our local authority has much control. Although it is all right for the Government to saythat they want to protect council tenants from an extra burden on their income, they cannot at the same time impose extraburdens on the local authorities and expect them to sort it out. It is the Government's reponsibility, but they ate shoving it on to the local authorities and saying, "Get on with the solution of this problem." It is not something which they can solve. The point I am desperately trying to make is that, although we may pass this Bill, it will not make one iota of difference to the local authorities. The burden which we are asking them to bear will grow week by week. We can foresee it within the next year. It will be of enormous proportions. We cannot ask them to shoulder that burden because it is a Government responsibility. If the Government wish to pursue this policy, it is up to them to relieve the burden on the rates.
  5.35 p.m.
  Mr. David Weitzman: When I listen to the remarks of the hon. Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Silvester) and the remarks of the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page), I think back to 1945. I have had the honour of being in this House since that date and of listening to many housing debates. I remember vividly that notorious 1957 Rent Act, which the Conservative Government enacted. I remember the chaos that followed it. I remember the tremendous sense of injustice and the terrible state into which housing was thrown. The hon. Member for Crosby criticises what the Government are doing today. I hope that he will remember the steps that have been taken by the Government to ameliorate the lot of tenants.
  When the hon. Gentleman talks about the council tenant and the burden on the council and the easing of this burden and soon, I want him to start from scratch and deal with the ordinary tenant who has suffered so much in the past. We had rent control, bitterly opposed by the party opposite. There was protection for tenants, now regulated tenants, with a rateable value in London of £400 and in the provinces of £200. What has been the result? Tremendous protection for those tenants.
  1158
  The terrible things that would follow, prophesied by the Opposition, have not materialised. The housing problem has been dealt with properly and sensibly. As to eviction, there has been no eviction of tenants without an order from the court, a wonderful protection for tenants. There is also protection against harassment of tenants by landlords. These are all things that have been achieved by this Labour Government.
  As for council tenants, I once believed in the doctrine that a council always looked after its tenants and studied their interests and that it was unnecessary to interfere. I have lost that illusion. It has gone, particularly because of the attitude of the Greater London Council. Something has been said about its attitude and what it has to do, on increases and so on. I had hoped that in this Bill, and I still hope that it might be done in Committee, the protection accorded to ordinary and regulated tenants, that is security of tenure, would be given to council tenants. The Bill dealt with regulated tenancies. I suggested that council tenants should have security of tenure.
  Mr. Christopher Chataway: Would the hon. and learned Gentleman go further and suggest that council tenants should pay the same fair rents as those subject to regulated tenancy arrangements? The G.L.C. has attempted to phase the increase over three years.
  Mr. Weitzman: That is a red herring. One thing has nothing to do with the other.
  I want to deal with this point because it discloses real injustice. When the Bill giving security of tenure to those with regulated tenancies was before the House. I suggested that security of tenure should be given to council tenants. The answer was, "You need not worry: councils always act in the interests of tenants. Therefore, there is no need for security of tenure for them ". We now see what a fallacy that is from the G.L.C.'s attitude.
  Recently the G.L.C.:issued notices of increase. I understand that they were challenged in the High Court, and that there is now an action in the High Court concerning the matter. The G.L.C. issued notices to quit. As the law stands, all

  1159
  that the council has to do is to prove the service of a notice to quit and automatically the county court judge must make an order for possession. I know that hon. Members opposite may have been misled by a paragraph in a newspaper to the effect that the county court judge was supposed to have dealt with the question of increase. But that matter does not arise. The county court judge has no discretion when the G.L.C. issues a notice to quit. He must make an order for possession and there is a limit to the number of weeks in which possession can be obtained. If there are proceedings dealing with a notice of increase, and if the increase is invalid, obviously a tenant would not be in default. If he is not in default, there is no reason why possession should be obtained against him.
  I regard the G.L.C.'s recent action as completely unjustifiable. The tenants have protested against it, and I protest against it as strongly as I can.
  Therefore, the attitude of councils must not automatically be taken as being in the interests of tenants. Of course there are many good councils which act in the interests of tenants. On the other hand, there are councils which do not. A strong case can be made out for giving security of tenure to council tenants in the same way as it is given to tenants of private property with regulated tenancies.
  I turn to the question of the permitted increases of rent. I regret that they must be increased. I support the Bill because it is the only way in which we can put a limit on the rents imposed. When the 7s. 6d. increase was imposed last year, the Labour group on the G.L.C. made a powerful case showing that a 16 per cent. increase was unjustifiable and that a 3s. 6d. increase and no more should be allowed. I was astonished that the Minister allowed the 7s. 6d. increase. That amounts to £19 10s. a year. When the additional 7s. 6d. increase is imposed next year, that will make a total increase of £39 10s. over two years—a pretty stiff increase for a council tenant. I am not sure that an increase of this kind is justified.
  As the Minister said, when increases of this sort are made there are demands for increases in wages and there are rent strikes and a lot of bitterness. The
  1160
  Government should make closer inquiries before sanctioning increases of this kind. It is said that councils must balance their books and provide the money and that there is the question of rebate, and so on. I appreciate all that. But, in spite of rebate systems, many tenants will suffer real hardship by the imposition of these increased rents. I know that the Government have attempted to limit them.
  Mr. T. L. Iremonger: What the hon. and learned Gentleman is saying is very important and we should be clear about it. He says that people will suffer real hardship despite the operation of the rent rebate system. Does he believe that the rent rebate system is unfair, ill conceived and ill administered, or that people will not make use of it?
  Mr. Weitzman: I am not saying that the rent rebate system is unfair in all cases or that people do not make use of it. Even if a rent rebate system is properly applied, many tenants will suffer real hardship as a result of an increase of £19 10s. this year. which will become an increase of £39 10s. next year. That is why these increases should be looked at very carefully.
  I was troubled by the way in which the Opposition put their case on rent regulated tenancies. I know that there is provision for increases and that the Act limits them to one-third in the first year and two-thirds in the next year. But I am attracted by the idea that it might have been better if the question of an increase had been put to a rent officer who could have ascertained what was a fair rent. There might have been a limit to what the rent officer could do, but it is important that the system of the rent officer, which was very wisely introduced by the Government, should be established on a fair basis.
  I was glad to hear the Opposition's praise of the institution of the rent officer. I cannot remember similar enthusiasm when the proposal was put forward from this side of the House. It was a very sound proposal. Although under the provisions which a rent officer applies he must disregard scarcity value, my view is that in many cases scarcity value is taken into account in the assessment of a fair rent. This perhaps has little to

  1161
  do with the outline of the Bill, but 1 mention it because some time it will have to be looked into, so that when it is said that a rent officer should disregard scarcity value, the rent officer should be the person to do this.
  Subject to the points which I have raised and which I hope will be dealt with in Committee I give my support to the Bill.
  5.50 p.m.
  Mr. Charles Morrison: The underlying feeling behind the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) is that once more the man in Whitehall knows best. The hon. and learned Gentleman had doubts whether rent increases in London were necessary but, instead of encouraging the G.L.C. to look again at rent increases, he felt that the man in Whitehall should inquire into the G.L.C.'s proposals and, if necessary, ensure that rents in London were not increased. I do not agree that that is the best way of setting about the problem.
  The Minister took credit for the fact that the Bill is a relaxation compared with the provisions of Part III of the Prices and Incomes Act 1968, and that the local authorities have agreed to the proposals in the Bill. Neither of these points makes the Bill any less abhorrent in principle. Local authorities will be precluded from doing freely and without interference one of the jobs for which the councillors have been elected.
  An underlying assumption of the Bill is that local authorities actually like putting up rents, that councillors take a fiendish delight in doing so and that they will do so continuously and exorbitantly unless they are controlled by Whitehall; so, the argument continues, a kind and humane Labour Government must step in to protect council tenants. The Minister emphasised the need to protect tenants against high rents; but surely councillors are just as anxious as Whitehall to protect tenants and keep rents as low as possible.
  I believe that the Minister served on a local authority before coming to the House, as I did. My recollection of housing meetings, albeit in a rural district council, when once or twice we had to
  1162
  consider rent increases, is that councillors became rather sour, peevish and bad-tempered. At the end of the day we usually regretted that we had had to decide to increase rents, and the only consolation was that there was no alternative if we were to keep the accounts in balance.
  The assumption which seems to be made is rubbish. For electoral considerations alone, no councillor will support a rent increase if it is conceivably avoidable.
  The P.I.B. Report on Local Authority Rent Increases (Cmnd. 3604) inquired into the main reasons for increases. Local authorities were asked to give their main reasons for requiring an increase. Twenty-nine per cent. of the local authorities gave the main reason as the rising interest rates; 21 per cent. the rising cost of housing programmes; 16 per cent. rising maintenance and repair costs; 15 per cent. rising costs of construction; only 4 per cent. gave the abolition of the rate fund contributions to the housing revenue account as the main reason for the increase; and only 4 per cent. suggested that the increases were due to the introduction of, or changes in, rent rebate schemes.
  Rent increases seem mainly to arise from factors which are beyond the control of local government, but not Whitehall. If the Government were to set about these matters successfully, there would be no need for the Bill. Because the Government have made such a muddle of our economy over the last, few years they now have to introduce Bills such as this to cope with the results of their own folly.
  Interest rates account for huge housing cost increases and have two effects, which are both bad. First, there is the direct effect on rents. For example, in the City of Birmingham since this Government came to power council rents on average have gone up by 13s. 9d. per week solely as a result of high interest rates. Second, there is the effect on the provision of new housing. The cost of new houses has increased by almost 40 per cent. in the last five years, largely because of the high interest rates. This is bound to inhibit council building plans, not least because councils know that part of the cost of new houses must be carried by existing local authority tenants. This, too, proves

  1163
  that councils do not wish to put up rents if they can avoid it.
  The results of high interest rates are magnified by selective employment tax, which bears heavily on maintenance and construction costs, and devaluation also has raised the cost of the imports of raw materials used in the building industry. The Government have directly raised local authority housing costs; yet when local authorities have tried to take account of those costs the Government have forbidden them to act with common sense and common prudence. The result is the situation which is to be found in London.
  My hon. Friend said that the housing revenue account in London had gone into the red to the tune of £8 million, and if there were to be no rent increase, that would increase next year to £14 million. Once again the unfortunate ratepayer has to pay for this, and he is often more heavily burdened and far less able to pay than the council tenant. Surely it is better for the locally elected representatives to make a decision about council rents in the light of local considerations.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: The hon. Gentleman appears to be confused. He appears to be making a differentiation between a ratepayer and a council tenant. But a council tenant is a ratepayer and pays his full share of the rates. Therefore, they are equals.
  Mr. Morrison: I am making no differentiation in regard to a ratepayer who is a council tenant. I am making a differentiation in respect of a ratepayer who is not a council tenant. There are many ratepayers who live in their own or privately rented accommodation who are in a financial situation in which they are much less able to pay increased rates than are people who live in council houses. That is the point I make.
  The Minister played on the point about agreement of local authorities to the proposals in the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) replied to the points the Minister made on that score. There is no doubt that local authorities will agree to any relaxation on the situation as they have known it in recent times. Furthermore, most councils will not need to raise rents by more than 7s. 6d. Therefore, the agreement
  1164
  to which the Minister referred is a fairly hollow achievement.
  It would be a mistake for the Minister to become too complacent about the official views of the local authority organisations. There is no doubt that there are still a number of councils which, for the most genuine reasons, will wish to raise their rents by more than the stated allowance and will find themselves in considerable difficulty. If local government means anything, local authorities should have freedom to arrange their rent policy as they think fit and should be prepared to answer to the electors for their decisions.
  I find it extraordinary that the Government wish to continue to control local authorities after the speech made by the Prime Minister to the conference of the Association of Municipal Corporations. The whole theme of the Prime Minister's speech at that conference was that local authorities should have more power to control the destiny of their own areas and look after their own affairs. My hon. Friend the Member for Crosby quoted at some length from the Prime Minister's speech. Luckily he stopped quoting at the sentence before the one that I wished to quote. The Prime Minister went on:
  "We want to see more freedom for local decisions on how resources available to local government, for capital and revenue, are to be used, and on the relative priorities to be given to various functions and activities consistently with overall national policies."
  In practice, what has happened? There has been continuing interference on rents, and there will soon be the removal of the right of local authorities to decide as they think fit on the type of secondary education in their areas. It is an odd way of providing more freedom. If the Government are to reorganise local government, it does not give people much confidence that power and authority will be restored to local authorities from Whitehall.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: The hon. Gentleman gives the impression that the Prime Minister spoke at the A.M.C. conference before discussions with that association. The discussion took place about these proposals way back in July of this year. Therefore, before my right hon. Friend spoke at the conference, A.M.C. members were well aware of what had gone on in earlier conversations.
  An Hon. Member: Then it is humbug. It makes it worse.
  Mr. Brown: That is just what they did not say.
  Mr. Morrison: The Prime Minister went along to the conference and said that authorities were to be given more freedom, when the Government previously had set about ensuring that local authorities were not to have more freedom. It seems to be a complete contradiction.
  Mr. Brown: The Association of Municipal Corporations recognised the problem.
  Mr. Morrison: The local authority associations may have recognised the problem. The local authority associations agree that the present situation is better than that which existed previously. But is not by any stretch of the imagination a perfect situation.
  However, this Government will not reorganise local government. That will be the job of the next Government. Therefore, I have fewer fears about the amount of freedom which will be given to local authorities in future. Local authorities should have freedom to decide on rent increases as they should continue to have freedom on all aspects of rent policy. The Bill does nothing to help solve the housing problem. It is depressing, bureaucratic and unhelpful. Therefore, it should be rejected.
  6.8 p.m.
  Mr. Laurence Pavitt: The hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Charles Morrison) has his own private demonology in which the man in Whitehall is top of the list. I agree with very few of the hon. Member's remarks. He must understand that there must be some relationship between the Government's national policy on housing and local government policy on the subject. The Bill does not go as far as I should like, but it establishes some means whereby national housing policy can be related to the rent charged by local authorities.
  I liked the hon. Member's phrase about local councils taking fiendish delight in raising rents. As a professional politician, he must realise that a Conservative council could win a good many votes in large residential areas of owner-
  1166
  occupiers by trying to clobber the council tenant and giving the impression that every council tenant has three cars in his garage, £40 a week corning in, and that kind of propaganda which is to be found not in the demonology of the hon. Gentleman opposite but in the mythology which is engendered.
  I listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page). I always have sympathy with him, but I am rarely in sympathy with his case. He does a lot of the donkey work for his party, undertakes a lot of chores on the Front Bench on a number of issues, and deserves a greater reward than he is likely to get. Although he made play with the fact that the seat of my hon. Friend the Minister of State has about it the game of musical chairs, I am afraid that if the Tories ever come to power the hon. Member for Crosby is unlikely to have an opportunity of even a short tenure in that seat. Too many years will have elapsed.
  The debate on this Bill has shown clearly, once again, where we stand on the housing problem. On that side of the House there are the landlords. On this side are the tenants. On the other side one finds property rights; on this side families and homes. On that side one finds talk of interest rates, balancing the budget, the arithmetic and mathematics of the matter. We on this side try to see housing as a human problem, and are concerned with people more than finance. Even if we cannot strengthen the Bill further in Committee in the direction which most of my hon. Friends would like, I hope that, in a year or two, the next Labour Government will regard housing and homes as the Sixth Freedom. We secured the Fifth Freedom, of course, In the National Health Service. I hope that the Bill will be part of the process of thought among my right hon. and hon. Friends and that eventually they will come up with a National Home Service which will ensure that every family in the country has a roof over its head and can build a real home, as a right. The efforts of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, so far have detracted from that rather than added to it.
  Another theme which has run through the debate has been the action of the

  1167
  G.L.C. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) reminded us of the tragedy and chaos which followed the 1957 Rent Act. Many of us who lived through that period and watched the consequences of that legislation are amazed that the chairman of the G.L.C's housing committee, Mr. Horace Cutler, should claim on television that, provided that the landlords are set free and allowed to fix their own rents, a good deal of London's housing problems will be solved. What poppycock it is. We have had that solution before, and it failed miserably.
  The Acts of 1957, 1961 and 1964 were all designed to give landlords more money which they could spend on maintenance. Each time that rents have been increased, for the purpose of adequate repairs, the landlords have pocketed the money and there has been none of the maintenance, repair work and rehabilitation that we have needed.
  I welcome the Bill, though I would like to see it harsher than it is in that a 7s. 6d. increase is too much to allow especially in areas where recent increases have been made.
  I get the impression that, very much in the posture of the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Chataway), who used to be be able to run a mile in four minutes, the London Borough of Brent, which includes my constituency, is getting ready to go. Once the restrictions of the Prices and Incomes Act comes off, it is ready to pounce on council house tenants and put up their rents. Already there is evidence of it in my area. In spite of the fact that on the last increase my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government made it clear that there should be no change in rent rebate schemes and that was a precondition of the last 7s. 6d. increase, already the signs are that the council is waiting for April to come, when the rent rebate scheme in my area is likely to change. Clause 1 of the Bill is the least safeguard that we can have, and I welcome it.
  I am astounded at the way in which the tenants of council houses are expected to pay for urban renewal and all the other ways in which a local authority seeks to
  1168
  improve the community. The lighting of an ordinary street, with one lamp to so many houses, is paid for out of the rate account. In the case of 16-storey buildings, where the lighting goes upwards instead of horizontally, the cost is thrown on to council tenants. Charges and costs which would normally accrue to the community are stacked on to whatever rent the tenants may be asked to pay.
  In an area like my own which contains a large number of houses built anything up to 100 years ago, inevitably there will be large areas of slum clearance and redevelopment. In my own case, there are redevelopments in progress at Church End and Stonebridge, in addition to which a tremendous amount is going on in the constituency of my hon. Friend for Willesden, East (Mr. Freeson), in the Kilburn area. In the meantime, the council must acquire houses which it cannot afford to put in proper repair since they are scheduled to be pulled down. As a consequence, there is a great deal of sub-standard property, on which the council will be allowed to levy an increase of up to 10s. a week. Slum properties and prefabs due to be pulled down years ago, for which it is an insult to charge, even the present rents, come under this blanket overall authority. I hope that the Government will look again at the relevant Clause with a view to strengthening it so that there will not be only an overall 7s. 6d. increase plus an upper ceiling of 10s. What is needed is a far more sophisticated differential so that there will not be these inordinate increases levied on people whom it is unfair to charge.
  Reference has been made to the attitude of the G.L.C. It is extremely arrogant of that council to be prepared to accept as its entire guiding light the balancing of the books with increases of 32s. 6d. under consideration. Where it has militant tenants, it is prepared to take the utmost sanctions against them largely because the members of the authority have no idea what it is like to be a council tenant. This is an attitude deriving from the poor law concept, that council tenants are regarded as inferior and second class citizens and given the minimum consideration possible. In the case of my own authority, already the housing standards for new building are

  1169
  being lowered to save £78 a year rather than provide the kind of housing which the people deserve at the current standards.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: My hon. Friend has referred to the G.L.C. trying to balance its books. May I remind him that that is the last thing that it has been able to do. The present council is the only one ever to be at County Hall which has had to put on a precept because it is so incompetent.
  Mr. Pavitt: I have nothing to add to that.
  Mr. Iremonger: The hon. Gentleman has referred to the so-called militant tenants of the G.L.C. Does he not agree with the 98 per cent. of G.L.C. tenants who have paid their increases that it is quite unfair that the remaining 2 per cent. should hold out when the majority are paying?
  Mr. Pavitt: As an hon. Member representing a London constituency, the hon. Gentleman will know that the 98 per cent. have paid under the strongest protest. It is fantastic to suggest that they welcome the increase. In any event, I do not agree that one has to accept the acquiescence of the majority as meaning that, because they are law-abiding, they have to bear the burden.
  In piloting the Bill through all its stages, my right hon. and hon. Friends should recognise that in addition to the rent increase permitted under the two parts of this Bill, there is an increasing tendency to transfer to tenants what was hitherto the landlord's responsibility for repairs. This represents a further increase which is not covered by the 7s. 6d. but which automatically means a large outgoing for tenants.
  I hope, too, that the Government will look at the way in which some councils take the attitude that if a person is receiving supplementary benefit from the Social Security office it is possible to impose a large increase on his rent because the supplementary benefit commission will pay the difference. Such councils are saving on their rates at the expense of the taxpayer. I have referred such a case to the supplementary benefit commission for a general ruling. If it is possible to strengthen the Bill so that the practice
  1170
  is no longer accepted by any local authority, I hope that we shall do it.
  The pertinent point has been made by a number of my hon. Friends that the rent paid by a council tenant in Willesden over 20 years is probably between £5,000 and £6,000. At the end of that 20 years, unlike with an owner-occupier, the asset has nothing to do with the tenant. He has saved nothing. The house belongs to the ratepayers. In effect, the council tenant has paid for the property and the land which, after 20 years, will be worth mere than the council paid for them and he has donated them to the community.
  I should like the Government to consider, in addition to their Save-As-You-Earn scheme, a Save-As-You-Rent scheme. Is there not some entitlement, after 20 years, that a man who has paid about £5,000 shall have some measure of savings as a result of the asset that he has given to the community?
  Mr. Rossi: Would not the best Save-As-You-Rent scheme be to allow the council tenant to buy the house in which he is living? In that way he will get capital appreciation in due course.
  Mr. Pavitt: One of the biggest rackets which have gone on is the attempt to sell off a pool of council houses. In my area, which has about 6,700 still on the waiting list, decreasing the pool of houses would aggravate the problem.
  The hon. Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger) will know of a case in his constituency where a house was sold to a sitting tenant and finally bought back by the council when it rehoused the gentleman concerned in an old people's hostel. As a result, the local ratepayers lost about £1,500. There is no easy solution. What invariably happens, as the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Rossi) knows, is that the more modern houses, which cost a lot, are not sold. It is the pre-war houses which are sold off at a fraction of their present-day value, and often they are resold within a short time to make a profit for the sitting tenant. That contributes nothing to the community, nor does it assist the housing problem.
  I commend the Bill to the House. It is a move in the right direction. It is necessary. Without it there is not the

  1171
  necessary sanction that we need to prevent inordinate rent increases. I urge the Government to give greater consideration to the figures in the Bill. I am certain that if they could make an inroad on the amount that we all must pay to keep a roof over our head, this would be the greatest contribution to a fair budget, an effective prices and incomes policy and a fair society in which people can earn the right amount to meet their commitments, the largest of which is usually housing.
  6.22 p.m.
  Mr. Alick Buchanan-Smith: It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt) in these debates in the House because to housing and all such matters he brings great human feeling. We appreciate that it is right to look at housing not only in the context of bricks and mortar and balancing housing accounts, but also from the human angle—the creation of homes, and the family problems of those who live in the houses that we build.
  There is no monopoly on the other side of the House in regarding housing as a human problem which we must approach in human terms. The real point which divides the House concerns the rents of local authority houses. We, on this side, believe that people living in council houses who can afford a reasonable rent should pay it and that the problem cases, to which the hon. Member for Willesden, West, refers, are best taken care of by a proper system of rent rebates. I firmly support this idea. Indeed, I know that the Secretary of State for Scotland is in negotiation with local authorities in my constituency concerning the introduction of rent rebate schemes. I support the Minister of State and his right hon. Friend in their negotiations for proper rent rebate schemes in Scotland. The right approach is to try to assist the family in difficult circumstances in a particular council house situation.
  I do not intend to follow the hon. Member for Willesden, West any further. He spoke mainly about London. I should like to speak about housing and rents in Scotland.
  The Minister of State in his opening remarks tried to cast this subject against the background of the current economic
  1172
  situation and the Government's economic policy. It is right to look at it in this way, but, as the same time, we must look at it in the local context. We must look at it not only in relation to the economy of the country as a whole, but in relation to the economy of each local authority concerned. This is what I want to do. In particular, I should like to consider it against the size of the housing debt in Scotland.
  In May, 1968, the total housing debt in Scotland was about £950 million. In May, 1969, it rose to over £1,000 million. For example, in Glasgow alone there is a tremendous burden of capital debt on housing amounting to over £200 million. This is the economic problem facing local authorities in Scotland. I use Glasgow as an example, because it demonstrates that we must look at this subject locally as well as nationally.
  Mrs. Winifred Ewing: Would the hon. Gentleman accept that one solution to the problem that he is outlining might be if drastic action were taken to write off some of this debt in the way that some of the debt of London Transport, amounting to £250 million, has been written off?
  Mr. Buchanan-Smith: If the hon. Lady catches your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, no doubt she will develop that point and say how much it will cost not only in Glasgow, but in other local authorities throughout Scotland. I hope that the hon. Lady will go into the economics of it and suggest how it would be financed. It is an interesting point. The whole question of capital burdens is deep and complicated. There is no simple answer.
  The tremendous capital debt on housing is particularly important in certain local authority areas like Glasgow, but we must also consider the size of the deficit on current housing accounts in different local authorities. This point has been made time and again from this side, and I make it again today concerning Scotland. The deficit on our current housing account has to be financed out of rates.
  In the counties and large burghs in Scotland, we find that 36 per cent. of housing expenditure has to be financed by the ratepayer, and in the four large

  1173
  cities 39 per cent. has to be financed by the ratepayer. This demonstrates the tremendous financial burden which the ratepayer in Scotland has to bear in relation to council housing. The Financial Times recently reported one builder as having said that every property owner has four houses; his own and three that he never sees, but for which he has to pay. This is the kind of situation obtaining in Scotland.
  Apart from the pressure of housing account upon rates, there are also many o:her costs which local authorities are continually forced to push more and more on to the ratepayers. I will not go into details this evening. My hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) did that during his speech. Costs have been going up in a thousand and one different ways, and all the time there is this never-ending problem facing local authorities of trying to keep expenditure in line with estimates. This came out in. a recent debate on the rate support grant. For the year 1967–68 expenditure by local authorities exceeded estimates by £3 million, and in 1968–69 the estimated excess will be about £12 million. I use this as another example of the pressure on local authorities to meet the deficit which has to be passed over at the end of the day to the ratepayer.
  There is no doubt about this trend over recent years. Taking cities, large burghs and counties in Scotland, in 196667 we find that 31 local authorities increased their rates, 23 reduced them and three held them the same. In 1967–68 the pattern changes. As against 31 increasing their rates, the figure has gone up to 45. As against 23 who managed to lower rates then, only eight managed to lower rates in 1967–68, and five managed to hold steady. There is no doubt that the tremendous burden of housing and other costs is putting increasing pressure on ratepayers.
  It is true that the domestic element provides a certain measure of relief for the householder, but I ask the Government to spare a thought for industry, trade and commerce, because they represent a wide section of ratepayers, and it is not just the domestic ratepayer of whom we should be thinking this evening. Shop properties in the centre of Glasgow are standing empty because of the high burden of rates. The provision of low
  1174
  rental council houses is one of the objectives of the Government, but it is no use having such houses unless business, trade and industry are encouraged to provide employment for the people who live in those houses.
  I should like to address the House in the context not only of housing but of trade and industry and providing employment in Scotland as a whole.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member must not widen the debate too far.
  Mr. Buchanan-Smith: I accept your admonition, Mr. Speaker. I am trying to relate this to the level of rates in Scotland. I have argued before that if we hold down the level, of council rents to too great an extent this will put up the rates, and that if that happens an extra burden will be put on industry and trade. That in turn will negative so many of our efforts to develop the Scottish economy, increase employment, and make Scotland more prosperous.
  The level of rents in Scotland is far below that in England and Wales, and what concerns me about the Bill is that we are doing nothing to try to bring Scottish council house rents up to a more realistic level. The latest direct comparison is to be found in the Report of the Prices and Incomes Board, to which reference has already been made. The report shows that council house rents in Scotland are about half those in England and Wales. It also shows that over the period for which they were examined the rate of increase of council house rents in Scotland was lower than that in England and Wales.
  The situation is serious in relation to the economy of Scotland as a whole, as it is for trade and industry, but it is particularly serious for private house building. Here I should like to refer to the report which was commissioned by the National House Builders Registration Council and prepared by Professor J. B. Cullingworth, a name very much respected in housing circles as a great authority, not only in Scotland, but in England and Wales as well.
  In the summary on page 6 at the beginning of the report one sees the following statement:
  "Scottish rents are so much lower than English that this must operate as a severe disincentive to owner-occupation."

  1175
  I ask the Minister of State to take that into account when winding up the debate and dealing with the points relating to Scotland.
  The report shows that, compared with 50 per cent. owner-occupation in England and Wales, the figure for Scotland is only 29 per cent. It is said that Scotland is in the position in which England and Wales were 20 years ago. Since 1918 only one in five new houses built in Scotland has been for private owner-occupation. That must be seen against a figure of 50 per cent. in England and Wales. The proportion of home ownership in Scotland is the lowest of any country in Europe west of Russia. I ask the Minister of State and the Government to bear that in mind when they consider this question of holding down council house rents, because, as the report shows, this is a positive disincentive to private home ownership in Scotland, something which we very much want to encourage.
  As we on these benches have said in the House, on many occasions in the Scottish Grand Committee, and in Standing Committees, we recognise the tremendous breadth and depth, and also the concentration in particular areas, of the housing problem in Scotland, but we will not be able to solve it unless we mobilise all the resources at our disposal to tackle the problem, and that includes making full use of private house building. We accept that there is a human factor in council housing—we discussed this in relation to rent rebate schemes—but let us not do anything under the Bill—and I believe that it runs the risk of doing it—to perpetuate this imbalance in Scottish housing, this lack of the full utilisation of private house building to solve the housing problem.
  I beg the Government to keep their eyes open to the problems facing trade and industry as well as ratepayers, the problems of economic development, and also the problems facing the owner-occupier and the private bodies which build houses for sale or renting.
  6.35 p.m.
  Mr. Frank McElhone: On 30th October last, I became the Member for Gorbals. I succeeded the late Mrs. Alice Cullen, a woman who was held in the highest
  1176
  respect in this House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] In my constituency she became a legend in her lifetime. Two or three years ago the Sunday Express christened her the champion of the slum dweller, and she richly earned that title, because for 50 years, since 1916 when she first went to the Gorbals, she worked unceasingly for an area which I am sorry to say has the unfortunate record of having the worst housing in Western Europe.
  As one who was born and brought up in the Gorbals until three years ago, and who is proud to represent the constituency, I come to the House concerned with, and hoping to solve, the problems with which my predecessor came to the House more than 21 years ago. For the benefit of hon. Members from south of the Border, perhaps I should make it clear that I am still a member of the local authority in Glasgow. What has been done in the last 18 months in Glasgow? I know that one should not be political or attempt to take party advantage when making a maiden speech, but I must in all sincerity say that it was most unfortunate for the people of Glasgow that 18 months ago there was a change of administration in the city. For 30 years prior to that Glasgow had enjoyed a Labour administration.
  In spite of receiving a subsidy of 2s. 6d., which is to be raised to 3s. 4d. in the coming year, the Tory-controlled local authority in Glasgow in its budget reduced its housing estimates by more than £700,000. The first-class direct labour building department that we had created in the 'thirties was reduced by more than 600 building trade operatives, and that in a city which has the worst housing record in Europe. As I said in the Scottish Grand Committee only two or three days ago, it is criminal to pay off building trade workers in such a situation.
  Unfortunately, there have been two penal rent increases in Glasgow during the last 15 months, and in the last three months 416 families have been ejected from their corporation homes. Where did those families go? Time and again I have asked whether anyone cares, but unfortunately I am still waiting for an answer. Part of the answer lies in the statement that more than 2,000 children

  1177
  are in the care of the Glasgow local authority, and I am sorry to say that many of these children come from homes which have broken up as a result of rent increases, and the ejection of families because of their inability to pay the rent. I am the first to admit that a great deal of the fault lies at their own doors. I hope that the Minister will have some regard for some "first aid" or "ambulance" work to prevent a situation in which 2,000 children are in the care of a local authority. I am looking at this purely financially. We are told that it costs over £10 a week to keep a child in a home. I am always convinced however that housing is not a political but n social problem which concerns us all because of the human misery that it can bring. What type of citizens will those 2,000 children be? This is what worries me.
  I accept that rents are lower in Scotland than in England, but the real problem is that we have enjoyed a large measure of unemployment for far too long. This Government have corrected the situation, but in the past 30 years we were considered an industrial annex of the south. We enjoyed a boom when there was one in England, but when there was a recession here we suffered severely. The Scot is a proud person. He is not looking for subsidies or low rents. He is a natural artisan who has inherited a tradition of being a first-class worker, but he wants the chance to work.
  In spite of this Government having done more on the industrial scene in the last five years than had been done in the previous 25 years, there are still too many people unemployed. I have said this before, but I hope to be as much a critic of this Government as any hon. Member opposite. If there is anything that the Gorbals respects it is a fighter and I serve notice on my right hon. Friend that I cannot always be expected to go into the Lobby when social issues of this kind still affect people in the Gorbals.
  Many thousands are out of work in Glasgow. Unfortunately, in spite of the Board of Trade figures that we are narrowing the gap between the average wages in England and those in Scotland, our local authority manual reveals that thousands of Glasgow workers still take home less than £12 a week. The rebate schemes are inadequate for the lower-
  1178
  paid worker. I know this from having defended many people before rent tribunals and the poor law court. Many people in Glasgow are paying over 20 per cent. of their income in rent, which is a fair percentage of anyone's income.
  Recently the Tories in Glasgow brought in a new scheme, creating eight new grades of housing. We have built 150,000 municipal houses in Glasgow. We are proud of that, but it is still not enough. Two-thirds of the houses in my constituency have been built only in the last five years of Labour Government. But we have some very bad municipal housing. Under this policy of the Tories, the unemployed, the lower-paid worker and the unsociable person will all be graded in category 8 because of their inability to pay.
  As I said to the housing convenor at our last meeting of the corporation, we are creating housing ghettoes. Any family is stultified if families are grouped together as one type. One does not encourage any of the quality of life which we should be encouraging in every family. Everyone should have equal opportunity in Glasgow, irrespective of his income. I am perhaps an old-fashioned Socialist. I believe that housing should be a social service. I have come to accept that, unfortunately, Glasgow Corporation is supplying municipal houses not to those in need but to those with the ability to pay.
  The hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) referred to the many stores closing in Glasgow. But, as in other spheres, there are inefficient stores in Glasgow. The city has been "over-stored" for many years. One or two firms have a monopoly of the stores in Glasgow, and many of them are closing because of inefficiency and because Glasgow is losing so much of its population to the new towns and overspill areas.
  The last election bore out my firm impression that the people of Scotland realise that this is the most reforming Government this century, that they have done more for the people of Glasgow than any other Government that we can remember. If one could describe this Government over Their five years of office, it would be as a Government of social justice. I am convinced that the mandate of this Government will be

  1179
  renewed from time to time. I am appalled that hon. Members opposite do not think that an increase of 7s. 6d. to 10s. is enough. It is far too much for many of these people.
  I completely support the Bill, and I thank the House for listening to me.
  6.46 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Jones: It is a great pleasure for me to follow the new hon. Member for Glasgow, Gorbals (Mr. McElhone). He must recognise that his speech has been well received from the rapt attention which it has been given from all sides and from those hon. Members who are standing "outside the House".
  Those of us who are particularly interested in local government will welcome someone to our ranks who, as the hon. Gentleman said he does, still serves on a city council. He brings to the House that air of confidence which we always get from our Scottish fellows and also an air of competence, although I cannot apply that description quite so far-reachingly. I had to listen more carefully to him than is sometimes the case as the brogue was sometimes difficult to follow, but it was welcome to my ears.
  I am sure we all recognise the sincerity with which the hon. Member referred to the interests of his constituents and all the problems which face them and the local authority in the great city of Glasgow. I am sure that the hon. Member is quite right that his first loyalty is to his constituents who elected him to represent their interests here.
  I was touched by his moving reference to Mrs. Alice Cullen, who preceded him here. She was very highly regarded in the House. She represented her constituents in the Gorbals most effectively, and I am confident that in her successor we have someone who will continue in that tradition. I congratulate him.
  The hon. Member highlighted the problem to which a number of hon. Members have referred—the lack of resources in housing. It came from the hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt), who I regret is not in his place, who I know is greatly concerned about housing, particularly since he represents a London constituency. The same point was made by
  1180
  my hon. Friend the Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith). It is the fact that in housing we are suffering from a lack of resources, and it is on one aspect of the problem that I will concentrate.
  The effects of the Bill on, for example, housing revenue accounts, rate fund contributions and rental income generally are well known, as are the effects on building programmes and the ability of local authorities to use rent policy as an important aid to bring a sense of reality to their new rehousing schemes.
  The Government's eagerness to interfere with rent policy is very much in contrast with their refusal to accept added responsibility for the strengthening of tower blocks of flats beyond the 40 per cent. grant which they have been prepared to make. This is a grave problem for about 100 housing authorities. There is no lack of evidence of the Ministry's responsibility for tower blocks. The Griffiths Tribunal, which went into the question of the collapse of Ronan Point. in paragraph 177 of its Report, said:
  "The Ministry of Housing and Local Government, to quote their own words, 'launched a concentrated drive to increase and improve the use of industrialised methods in housebuilding in the public sector'."
  That was from Circular 76/65. It was as part of this policy that the system-built tower blocks came to be put up. But the stamp of official recognition went further, for the Housing Subsidies Act, 1967, continued the financial inducements to build high rise flats which were previously to be found in the 1956 and 1961 Acts. In other words, the subsidy structure was adjusted to encourage local authorities to build upwards. There can be no doubt about this, particularly if one discusses the matter with housing managers.
  I think I am right in saying that in the past it has been Government policy—not only under the present Administration but under the Conservatives, too—to make the approval of housing schemes conditional on a high proportion of high rise developments. It is in this context that I hope that the Government will be prepared to reconsider the offer that they have made to local authorities of 40 per cent. of the cost of rectifying and repairing tower blocks such as Ronan Point.

  1181
  Local housing authorities are faced with the expenditure of significant sums, not only by way of repairs, but to make these buildings safe and acceptable to tenants. Who is to meet the balance of the cost beyond the 40 per cent.? The answer is either the tenant or the ratepayer; that is, unless the Government are prepared to go further.
  The Government misled local authorities in this respect. I refer to a meeting of officers of local authorities at the Ministry on 12th August 1968, when the Ministry asked them to press on with emergency measures and to leave discussions about the financial implications until later. On 15th August, the Minister of the day issued a Press statement about safety measures for high rise flats, pending a further study of measures for their permanent strengthening. The then Minister said in that statement:
  "No cost should fall on tenants".
  But he made no commitment from the point of view of the Ministry and the proportion of the cost that it would bear.:f suggest, therefore, that local authorities were misled and were encouraged to get on with the work regardless of the expenditure, having been assured that no charge would fall on tenants. However, we find that 60 per cent. of the cost must fall on either the tenant or the ratepayer.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: I appreciate the point that the hon. Gentleman has made about the 40 per cent. grant, but he must not overlook the fact that the professional people involved in this matter were employed by the local authorities. It must not go out from this House that those involved—quantity surveyors, architects, designers and so on, all competent professional people—did not have a hand in this development. Indeed, I understand that a case is being prepared against such people. They both designed and built these premises. The hon. Gentleman should not allow these sort of professions to get free of their responsibility.
  Mr. Jones: I am not being critical of the professions—
  Mr. Brown: I am.
  Mr. Jones:— or attempting to justify or excuse them. I do not want to join with him in that. My purpose is to ask the Government to reconsider the
  1182
  whole question of giving a further grant in aid, which I believe their policy justifies, to local authorities. Indeed, their policy demands that greater assistance be given to local authorities.
  The G.L.C. has em barked on its own expenditure, under the present arrangement, on work on 36 tower blocks, and this work is estimated to cost £3½ million. In the uncertainty of the present situation, one need only look at the multistorey development in the Ronan Point area—one sees hundreds of flats empty; the buildings look pathetic, with only the odd set of curtains at windows here and there on the high facades of the blocks —to realise that the loss of revenue must be material.
  It is the uncertainty created by the Government's niggardliness and the uncertainty of the situation, for which the Government were esssentially responsible as a result of their attitude—both initially, in the promotion of high rise developments, and in the negotiations of August to which I referred—that have created difficulties for local authorities. They were warned that there would be difficulties, but they were given an undertaking that tenants would not have to meet the expenditure.
  In addition to the £3½ million expenditure on which the G.L.C. is engaged, under this Measure there will be a shortfall on rents for the second half of the current financial year of £2·1 million and, in the next financial year, 1970–71, of £4·2 million, a total of £9·8 million as a direct result of Government policy.
  Mr. George Brown: Oh, dear.
  Mr. Jones: Am I not right?
  Mr. George Brown: It is purely coincidental that the last hon. Member who interrupted the hon. Gentleman to raise the question of the professional people involved in this matter bears the same name as myself.
  I, too, call the hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that he is not addressing himself to the point which my hon. Friend the Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury (Mr. R. W. Brown) raised; namely, that this has nothing to do with the niggardliness of the Government or with so-called faltering Government policy. The housing authorities hired

  1183
  what they thought were perfectly competent professional designers and others. They were let down by those professional people. Why is the hon. Gentleman attacking the Government for the consequences of the failure of those professionals?
  Mr. Jones: I am not sure that 1 am competent to take on the brothers Brown, but I will do my best, although they appear to be trying to deflect me from the purpose of my speech. I am not concerned with professional competence.
  Mr. George Brown: I am.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: So am I.
  Mr. Jones: The brothers Brown make a strong lobby between them.
  My case is a Government one, though I will, if hon. Gentlemen opposite insist, deal with the building regulations later. The inaction of the Government and their absolute refusal to go beyond a 40 per cent. grant in aid for about 100 local authorities which have this problem is niggardly and entirely unjustified in the context of the housing matter which I have outlined.
  In Liverpool, I understand the city council is not prepared to do anything about a high-rise flat development without a much more favourable financial settlement from the Government than is proposed. I understand that the city council is not cutting off gas in the high-rise blocks, and this in circumstances in which 13.000 people are on the housing waiting list. We have, therefore, the effects of the financial implications of the problem and the serious effect which it is having on rehousing. It would be interesting if the Government would tell us how many homes are involved in this problem. We have not seen any definitive figure.
  I now come to the question of the new Building Regulations, which have been promised by the Government for over 12 months. One questions why there is delay in their publication.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The Bill is concerned not with Building Regulations, but rent control.
  Mr. Jones: Building Regulations are germane to the point, Mr. Speaker. If
  1184
  I am to try to answer the issue put up by the brothers Brown—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. That may be friendly, but it is out of order.
  Mr. Jones: I apologise, Mr. Speaker, for making that error a little earlier. The Building Regulations are referred to in paragraph (47) of Part III of the Griffiths Report. I quote:
  "The Minister of Housing and Local Government, who is responsible for the Building Regulations, must accept responsibility for seeing that the British Standards and codes of practice referred to in the Regulations are kept up to date and that new ones are promulgated as necessary. Machinery should be devised to effect this."
  That clearly is germane to the question of high-rise flats. The Minister accepted this in the House on 6th November last year, when he said:
  "We are putting in hand an urgent revision of the Building Regulations…The Government accept responsibility for ensuring that the regulations and codes of practice are kept up to date."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th November, 1968; Vol. 772, c. 904.]
  One questions why the Government are hanging back on the Building Regulations. This is linked to the whole question of the grant-in-aid, in which local authorities should be able to look for a much greater contribution from the Government.
  To what extent are the Government looking into new methods and techniques which might help in the problems associated with high-rise development and the air pressures involved? A piece of equipment which has been under examination for over a year is now to be tested by the Technical Advisory Panel on Explosion Research. I believe that there is evidence of lack of urgency and dragging of feet by the Government. I began by saying that we are having a denial of resources in housing and that the restriction of rent under the Bill is a contribution to that denial. For that reason, I oppose the Bill.
  7.4 p.m.
  Mr. Cyril Bence: I am certain that if the television cameras or radio were reporting the speeches from the other side of the House tonight, the swing from the Tories to us would be far greater than it has been in the last few months. In my 19 years' membership of the House, never have I

  1185
  heard so many contradictory statements from different parts of the Opposition in one debate on one little Bill.
  I have great sympathy with the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Charles Morrison), who said that the Bill and Government interference make no contribution to the solution of the housing problem. His hon. Friend who spoke afterwards told us that the Government were dragging their feet and giving 40 per cent. of the taxpayer's money to pay for the damage caused by faulty consultants and faulty civil engineering on the part of private enterprise.
  What do hon. Members opposite want? Do they want the Government to leave it alone and leave it to private enterprise, or do they want them to interfere? The hon. Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Silvester) and the hon. Member for Devizes want the Government to mind their own business, on the basis that Whitehall does not know best. The hon. Member, whose constituency I do not know—
  Mr. Arthur Jones: South Northants.
  Mr. Bence: That is a contradiction in itself.
  Mr. Jones: I agree that it is a contradiction, but surely the hon. Member is not telling me that he has heard of it tonight for the first time. There has been a Member for South Northants in the House for about 40 years.
  Mr. Bence: It is the first time I have heard of South Northants. Had I heard it before, I am sure that I should have made that crack before.
  Let us get the political conflict clear and know where we are. Let us polarise the ideas. Anything that the Government do, however modest and the Bill is a modest effort in that direction—to protect the price of housing to the consumer, in a country and world in which the general price level is rising, I support, however modest it is. Wherever anyone wants to put housing back into the market place so that housing is built purely as an investment, and take it out of protection and put it into the rat race of the market place. am against it.
  Mrs. Jill Knight: In view of what the hon. Member has just said, will he support us in
  1186
  our endeavours to get S.E.T. removed from house builders?
  Mr. Bence: S.E.T. is not under discussion in the Bill. I would say to the hon. Lady that if my Government proposed to abolish S.E.T., I would support them. No hon. Member on this side can be fairer than that. I would, however, be out of order to discuss S.E.T. We are discussing the protection of the price level of housing for council house tenants and tenants of private rented properties, with which I agree. 1 support the Bill wholeheartedly.
  The hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) spoke about the rent structure in Scotland. He failed to link that with a situation in Scotland apropos England, particularly the South-East, which has existed not for the last five years, but for over 100 years. The income of the average person in Scotland—not just working people, but professional classes as well—and the amenity level in Scotland have been lower for a century than they are down here.
  I do not want to make political capital out of this, but the fact is that the average Scot cannot afford on his income level to pay the rents that are paid down here. My experience of 20 years in Scotland is that if the average Scot had the average earnings of the average person down here, his ratio of owner-occupation would be as high as it is down here. I could not explain all the reasons, because I have not made a sufficient study, but I am convinced that it is more difficult to get high wages in Scottish industries than it is in industries down here.
  I was a toolmaker with Fisher and Ludlow, in Birmingham. When I went later to a Scottish employer, the firm welcomed me and invited me in. When I told them that I was a toolmaker from Fisher and Ludlow in Birmingham, they said I was just the man they wanted. When I asked what the wages were, I was told it was a sum which was just over half what I had earned in Birmingham.
  There is little owner-occupation in Scotland because the wage level has been kept low. Because of the historical background, many Scottish working people were housed in company houses. John Brown and Singer of Clydebank put workers who had come from all over the

  1187
  world to work for them in company houses at 2s. 6d. a week. That was good business. It did not happen in the Midlands; private speculators built the houses there and employers paid the minimum wages they could pay for willing workers, and others housed them. In Scotland, employers housed their employees and let them have cheap houses. It made no difference to the employers: what they lost on the swings of low rents they gained upon the roundabouts.
  Because of this tremendous gap in earnings level, throughout my lifetime some of the finest engineering workers in Great Britain have left Scotland's industrial area to come to work in the south of England. This has been Scotland's tragedy.
  I was brought up in the tradition of owner-occupation. I have been buying my house since 1925. If there had been no inflation, the money lenders would have got more money out of the bargain than I have. However, because of inflation, some of which happened under 13 years of Tory Government, I got better value out of the money I borrowed than those who lent the money to the building societies. Under the Tory Government, money lenders were losing on the deal and borrowers benefiting.
  If owner-occupiers have been benefiting from inflation, why should not council tenants? Council tenants will never own their property. Why do hon. Members opposite always want council house tenants to pay for the houses? I believe that those who consume a product or a service should pay for it. I, like the rest of the working class, do not want something for nothing from anybody. That is why we are working class. Employers are not like that; that is not their philosophy. If it were, they would still be working class.
  The Tory Party speaks with two voices on Bills like this one. Such a dichotomy is terrible. The hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns said that we cannot service Scotland's housing debt of £1,000 million. That debt is employed on behalf of the people and is serviced through their rates and taxes. Local authorities find this capital debt almost impossible to handle. The hon. Lady the Member for Hamilton (Mrs. Ewing)
  1188
  says that it should be written off. That is what private enterprise does; but the hon. Lady is in private enterprise and she knows what happens in private enterprise. When there is a debt that cannot be serviced, it is written down and the shareholders suffer. When Baldwins did some writing down, their shares fell from 28s. to Is. 3d.
  Mrs. Ewing: Does the hon. Gentleman agree, then, that London Transport is a private enterprise?
  Mr. Bence: I am not saying whether any one particular writing down is justified. I have merely said that the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns spoke about our huge capital debt of £1,000 million, which the hon. Lady wants written down. I say that that is what private enterprise does. It has been done with the coal industry. I have no objection to our writing down the National Debt, but if it is to be done on housing what about writing down the debt on everything else? What effect would this have on our economy and on our commercial and economic relations abroad. Once this writing down business is started, we are on a slippery slope.
  Mrs. Ewing: It has been started.
  Mr. Bence: I do not think that the operation in respect of London Transport was a good start. I have other remedies.
  The hon. Members for Walthamstow, West and for Devizes said that the major cost in housing is the effect of compounded interest. The major cost in nearly everything we do is compounded interest. Sixty per cent. of the tax we pay is to satisfy compounded interest. The complex of the capitalist system is compounded debt. We are servicing debt for hundreds of years.
  It is all very well for us to talk about writing it off, but the City of London would go nuts if we did. What Lord Cromer would say is nobody's business. The bankers' journals would call us everything under the sun if we started writing down capital debt. Those in the city have no objection to big manufacturers writing down their debts provided that they themselves do not hold any of their shares on their portfolios.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker, I realise that I am rapidly getting out of order, so I will not pursue that train of thought any

  1189
  further. I was led into that by-way by some of the contradictory and illogical statements made by hon. Members opposite and by the hon. Lady's assertion that it is easy to write off capital debt. Although I would like it to be done, I realise that it is impossible for any Government to start writing down large slices of the National Debt.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: I appreciate my hon. Friend's point about his being slightly out of order, but may I remind him that in 1960–61, when we were arguing for the financial resources of local government to be improved, the Tory Government's answer was that councils should play the market. That drove us into the hands of the very people to whom my hon. Friend is referring.
  Mr. Bence: That is what hon. Members opposite are here for. It is their job. If I were sitting on the Conservative benches, I should consider it my job to guide all the affairs of state, especially economic ones, in such a way that the rentier could get the maximum from it and the user of the rentier's facilities would get the minimum. That is business, and I do not quarrel with it. I merely want the public to know what the point of view of Conservatives is. It would be almost impossible for anyone from reading the speeches which have been made today, however they are reported, to know what Conservatives stand for.
  I do not believe that housing should be put into the market place. Nobody would be more pleased than I should be if we could return to a situation in which earning standards were such that workers could pay the market price for housing. It would be grand but it is impractical and cannot be done.
  I have certain views on Government and in all shapes and forms with which my party does not agree. It is the same with housing. I know that this Bill will not solve the housing problem. There is the land problem, and the problem of decaying houses. Some of the houses built by private enterprise between 1943 and 1950 are terrible. I have never seen such building standards in my life. They were shocking. There are similar houses being built today, badly constructed. I have a bungalow with fibre-board under the eaves. I can poke my finger through
  1190
  it. When I am retired soon I shall be able to get my tools out and deal with it.
  I know that private enterprise has been in a difficult position. I know that building contractors went bust all over the place because they cannot build for the people and sell. The A.A. in its journal "Drive" asks me to agree to campaign for a reduction in road tax and petrol tax, for a reduction in the taxation of the motor industry amounting to nearly £800 million a year. It says that the motor car is no longer a luxury but a necessity. I suppose that housing is luxury.
  In my opinion, more of the taxes which we motorists pay should be devoted to house building. I do not believe that the motor car is a necessity, but a house is. A house is vital. It is very doubtful whether the last 25 years would have produced such good industrial relations if we had not had, under both Labour and Conservative administrations some protection for tenants, for owner-occupiers, some help and concessions enabling people to get stable homes.
  My hon. Friend knows that in the city of Birmingham in the last 20 years if we had had a policy of housing for the market-place only, for those who could afford it, then the industrial problem in Birmingham would be terrible. It would be impossible to maintain a decent labour force in the city. The same applies to Glasgow.
  The knowledge that houses were being built by local authorities, that there was a chance of getting a house because of social need, has played a great part in creating stability in industrial relations. There is tremendous social stability, far superior to that in the majority of countries in the world. True, Norway, Denmark and Sweden have policies similar to ours. They enjoy this social stability. The rent policies, even of the party opposite when in power, even though they did not go as far as they ought to have done, showed a realisation that we could not put housing in the market-place, that there would have to be Government intervention.
  Hon. Members still realise that the time is not right to do this. We can put the motor car, the T.V., lots of things in the market-place but not the house. Land

  1191
  is scarce, and the problem is too difficult. We are nowhere near equating demand and supply. Therefore, we need Government intervention.
  The only argument between the two sides is the degree to which we use that intervention. Hon. Members opposite want 40 per cent. when private enterprise fails, but want nothing if the Government succeeds. I do not know where they stand.
  Mr. Weitzman: I am interested in the arguments of my hon. Friend about the right of Government to interfere. Would he not agree that if one looks at any local authority budget the largest single ratepayer is the Government, the taxpayer? Surely the taxpayers' representatives, and Ministers, are entitled to have some say in local rent control policy being pursued in any local authority?
  Mr. Bence: Local ratepayers cannot afford to carry the burden which would be called for to allow builders to sell or let at an economic rent. Hon. Gentlemen opposite use the phrase "a fair rent." I do not have the foggiest idea what that means, or what "a reasonable rent"means. If someone asked me what was the reasonable price of a motor car I would say that I did not have the foggiest idea. I have spent my life manufacturing cars, but I do not know what a reasonable price ought to be. I met a fellow driving a motor in Palace Yard. He thought the reasonable price of his car was about £50. I have no idea what the reasonable rent of a house is. All I know is that it is impossible for the private builder to build houses to rent at levels that people will be able to pay. The builder knows that he cannot do it, which is why he does not try. He can only build houses to rent through the local authority and the Government. They have to use him. There is no other way.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: This is a very pertinent point, because in my constituency land is zoned for 200 persons to the acre. I challenge any hon. Member to show me how a private builder can build for the ordinary working people of my constituency when they are putting 200 persons to the acre, which means an enormous high block.
  Mr. Bence: I wish hon. Gentlemen opposite would tell the people that, while they do not agree with the Labour Government on lots of things, they do agree that the only way we can build houses to rent for the mass of the lower-paid wage earners is through the State and local authorities.
  Mr. Silvester: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in Germany it is possible for a combination of Government grants and private money to build social security housing?
  Mr. Bence: That is perfectly true. I remember going on a deputation with my hon. Friend the Member for Shore-ditch and Finsbury (Mr. R. W. Brown). We met some steel workers and were taken to the home of one of them. This was in Benelux. We went through his house. It was centrally heated, and the cost of it was £3,000. There was no interest, rates were paid by the company, and the house was revalued every few years. If the man improved it he got a reduction from his capital cost.
  If by some mischance, because of many other reasons, we get a Tory Government, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will make a speech telling us what has been done in Germany, France the Benelux countries and Spain. Shall we get interest-free loans for everyone prepared to buy their own house? The hon. Gentleman would be in a bit of trouble with the building societies; he would put them out of business. They do not have such institutions in those countries; they have a different tradition. It is all very well for the hon. Gentleman to talk about them. It is not good enough to throw them out to the people. The hon. Gentleman should tell them the facts. If he wants to ruin the building societies let him say so; let us have this German and Benelux system. We cannot have it both ways. Who will deal with the building societies? We have a multitude of institutions represented by hon. Gentlemen opposite, but the hon. Member has just ruined one of them.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: There is evidence of a certain movement this way, because building societies in this country are prepared to lend on property which they regard as a good risk, but with property which is thought to be a bad risk my right hon. Friend is asked to provide

  1193
  money to local authorities. So this has already started. Private enterprise will not touch what it regards as a bad risk.
  Mr. Bence: My hon. Friend is right. This is the point of complete divergence between the two sides. Hon. Members opposite say, "If it pays, we want it; if it does not, let them have it." That is a good business philosophy. Every business man I know wants to know whether a proposition will pay. If it will pay, he takes it.If it will not pay, he tt.rns it in. I hope that hon. Members opposite will make themselves clear about this. If they do, no doubt they will find it harder to be returned to office, but even if they are, in my retirement I shall at least have the pleasure of coming up to London from time to time to meet my old friends in this House.
  Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
  7.30 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Rossi: The Minister of State said one or two things which I found rather curious. He gave the House some rather curious figures to outline the difference that exists between the subsidy that council tenants are getting and the subsidy which he says owner-occupiers get on their mortgages. I tried to intervene when he was giving these figures, but, unfortunately, he was not kind enough to give way so I have to inflict this speech upon him instead.
  The gist of the hon. Gentleman's argument was that the figures were close—in other words, that the amount of subsidy the average council tenant is getting is very close to the amount of subsidy that an owner-occupier buying on a mortgage gets through tax relief. I did not make a note of the figures, but he was talking about a sum of about £45 a year.
  Mr. Denis Howell: The figures I gave were that the average subsidy for a council tenant is £30 a year and the average tax relief to an owner-occupier with a mortgage is £47 10s. a year.
  Mr. Rossi: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, because those figures do not seem to agree with figures I received recently from an organisation called the Housing Research Foundation, which claims to be a non-political and nonprofit making research foundation to sponsor and co-ordinate a continuous
  1194
  programme of research into housing and housing needs. Perhaps we can be told whether its figures are correct, because they seem to vary a great deal from those he gave the House.
  The foundation says that, because of recent interest rate increases, the average financial assistance—the extent to which gross outgoings exceed rent—for a new council house is £200 a year outside London and £400 a year inside London. In other words, it says that the total subsidy from the taxpayer and the ratepayer to a council tenant in a newly built London house or flat is £400 a year—£8 a week from the taxpayer and the ratepayer. Are these figures correct? I ask the Minister to tell us whether or not they are correct and why they should vary so dramatically from those he himself used.
  Mr. W. Howie: The hon. Gentleman is overlooking quite a number of things. There must be several thousand, possibly tens of thousands, of council tenants who do not live in new houses in London, and this affects the average figure, which was given by my hon. Friend the Minister of State. Secondly, if the hon. Gentleman is giving the upper end of the range, of which the average is about in the middle, he should do the same thing for the tax reliefs and give us the upper end of the range and see whether that is £8 a week.
  Mr. Rossi: I will give the figures in a moment, because again the foundation seems to disagree with the Minister. I am inviting the Minister to say why these discrepancies arise. Perhaps he has an explanation. No doubt the question of pooling of rents between older and newer houses has some bearing, but here is a plain statement that a tenant living in a new council house in London gets a subsidy from the taxpayer and the ratepayer averaging £400 a year, and I am inviting the Minister to say whether that is right or wrong.
  Mr. Denis Howell: The hon. Gentleman and I are obviously not comparing like with like. I was giving the Exchequer contribution not the ratepayer's contribution. I was speaking on this occasion for the taxpayer, not the ratepayer. But my figures also take account of the option mortgage scheme. I would like to see whether the figures he is quoting take

  1195
  account of that. What were their criteria?
  Mr. Rossi: If the hon. Gentleman is correct in saying that he was only giving the Exchequer grant subsidy and is not challenging my figures, he says that the Exchequer grant subsidy averages £34 a year. The foundation, however, gives a subsidy figure of £400 a year. Is he saying, therefore, that in London the ratepayer is subsidising the council tenant in newly built property to the tune of about £360 a year?
  Mr. Denis Howell: The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that if one takes pre-war council houses bought, or in the process of being paid for, at very low cost, at one end of the scale, and compares that with the present very high cost of development—for example, high density city developments—there are tremendous discrepancies. I believe that what he is doing is to take from the upper end of the scale, which covers the new, postwar houses, possibly of high density, where, for example, slum clearance is one of the factors. It is not relevant to the comparison I was making.
  Mr. Rossi: I would not go so far as to say that it is not relevant. Of course I am not giving the figures of subsidy for old council property. Obviously the subsidy on houses built by the local authority 50, 40 or 30 years ago must by now be very little. Indeed, in some cases, the local authority may well be making a profit on the tenants.
  Mr. R. W. Brown rose—
  Mr. Rossi: The hon. Gentleman has intervened about 30 times so far during the debate. I know that he wants to make a speech. Perhaps he will catch Mr. Speaker's eye later.
  Mr. Tom Driberg: The hon. Gentleman said, quite fairly, that this organisation he is quoting claims to be non-political. I do not know anything about it, but the same claim is made for a number of bodies, such as Aims of Industry, Limited, which occasionally seem not to be totally devoid of bias. Does he have the names of the directors and trustees and so on of the foundation?
  Mr. Rossi: There is a list of a large number of organisations which appear to sponsor and provide funds for the research. There is a whole range of different organisations. No doubt the Minister will tell us more about it and comment on the figures later on. That is all I am inviting him to do. No doubt he will tell us how wrong these figures are.
  The other set of figures is the subsidy which the average owner-occupier receives on mortgage tax relief. The Minister told us that the average was about £47 a year. But this organisation seems to disagree with him, although possibly in a direction which would please his hon. Friends more. What it says is that the average tax relief on a £3,500 mortgage for a standard rate taxpayer is £95 in the first year and £65 a year average over 25 years. So the relief on this kind of basis also seems a little greater than the general average which the Minister gave. I do not know whether he had in mind a mortgage of £3,500, £3,000 or £4,000 when he gave us his figure of £47.
  Mr. Howell: This is the average to: all houses of owner-occupiers and cannot be compared with the allowances in respect of one house picked at random, costing, say, £3,000 a year. The hon. Gentleman is not comparing like with like at all.
  Mr. Rossi: With respect, if one tells the man in the street, "If you have a mortgage of £3,500 on your house, tax relief at the standard rate is an average of £65 a year ", this is something which he understands and can latch on to. He can then compare this specific with his own situation. But if one talks in very general terms—
  Mr. Howie: This is an interesting part of the debate. The hon. Gentleman, quite properly, gave us the figures for the upper range of tenancies for new houses in London—
  Mr. Rossi indicated dissent.
  Mr. Howie: It is no good the hon. Gentleman shaking his head—
  Mr. Rossi: I cannot intervene in an intervention.
  Mr. Howie: I am interrupting the hon. Member: he cannot interrupt me, but he can take this up later. He gave the

  1197
  upper range for council houses and has now given the average range for a £3,000 mortgage. What kind of tax relief would be received by the kind of owner-occupier whom he, living in Hornsey, and I, living in Hendon, both know very well—perhaps the resident in Bishops Avenue, where the mortgage might be £60,000? What are the figures for that, which is the upper range?
  Mr. Rossi: Bishops Avenue is not in my constituency. The average rateable value in Hornsey is about £40 to £60 a year. I hardly think that these houses come in that bracket. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has constituents who can contribute so well to his funds since they live in houses of that kind. I certainly do not have them in my constituency.
  It is hon. Gentlemen opposite who have been introducing this term, "higher bracket of council houses". I said no such thing. I merely mentioned the average for new post-war council houses. I mentioned the average, not the higher bracket. There is a distinction, obviously, for subsidy between pre-war houses and post-war houses, but I have not taken a higher bracket—at least, I do not think this association has. I am putting these forward not as my figures but as independent figures for the Minister to comment on. I have tried to show the House that they disagree with the Minister not only on the subsidy to council tenants for new houses from the Exchequer and the ratepayer, which is vastly above his figure to the House, but also on this bracket of mortgage, also compared with the figures which he has given to the House. I put these forward as comparisons for the hon. Gentleman to comment on also.
  When one is making this kind of distinction between a tenant living in a council house and an owner-occupier buying his own house and talking of subsidies, I wonder if one is really being intellectually honest. There is a distinction. If a council tenant is receiving a subsidy, he is getting the subsidy from the remainder of the community, because it is the general body of ratepayers and taxpayers who provide this subsidy and pay the difference between the rent which he affords to pay or is charged and the amount which it really costs the local authority to service his home. In other
  1198
  words, he is using other people's money. This is what a subsidy is; it can be nothing else—
  Mr. James Dempsey: But he is a taxpayer and a ratepayer as well.
  Mr. Rossi: Of course, but there is no relation at all—
  Mr. Dempsey: He is paying taxes.
  Mr. Rossi: Well, perhaps there are council tenants paying taxes to this kind of level for the accommodation which they occupy, but, in the nature of things, when we are talking of figures of this kind, the subsidy which they receive must be much higher than that portion of their rates which is devoted towards housing, which they pay into the kitty. This is right. Therefore, the argument remains that, albeit a council tenant is both a taxpayer and a ratepayer in some instances, nevertheless in receiving a subsidy he is receiving money from other people—
  Mr. R. W. Brown: So is a library ticket holder.
  Mr. Rossi: In comparison, it k not quite the same thing to compare it with the position of the owner-occupier paying a mortgage, who is then told, "Because you have voluntarily undertaken the burden of buying this house and paying interest charges upon it and have not sought local authority accommodation, we will take less of your money in taxes than we otherwise would". He is not receiving money from other people; he is having less money taken from his pocket by the Government. This is a totally different concept.
  But we have had this argument in the House time and time again, and none is so blind as those who will not see. It is inconvenient for hon. Members opposite to accept this point, and they never will, although, in their heart of hearts, they know exactly what the score is.
  To depart from that curious situation into which the Minister of State led us when he started talking about the subsidieson council property as opposed to mortgages—he would not let me intervene and so has had to put up with this 15-minute speech instead—I should like to go on to another point. He said that it was the Government's policy to refuse

  1199
  local authorities who wanted to raise the rents of their tenants in cases where there was sufficient in the housing revenue account to meet the additional money which the council was trying to raise. This is the policy of raising balances—if the money is in the kitty, there is no need to put up the rates: one takes the money from the kitty and uses that for the time being. That, essentially, was his argument. He went on to criticise the Greater London Council and its policy. Today seems to have been a general "Clobber the G.L.C." day for hon. Members opposite. They have had great fun with this. What he did not do, having made these two statements, was then to examine the position of the balances of the G.L.C. The Leader of the Greater London Council recently made a Press statement. It was on 7th November, so in quoting it I am not producing figures that the Minister has not seen. In his statement, Mr. Desmond Plummer said:
  "Since the Minister interfered in this matter the G.L.C.'s Housing Revenue Account has gone further into the red to the tune of about £8m., and if no rent increase is made next year the deficit will rise to the colossal sum of nearly £14m., which would have to be met by the ratepayers."
  So there is no balance for the G.L.C. to raid to avoid putting rents up. But still the Minister refuses to allow the G.L.C. to raise the rents.
  What is his ingenious method of doing this? He tells the G.L.C. that it should borrow money to pay the salaries of those engaged in the Housing Department, to the tune of about £2 million. There is no balance to raise, the G.L.C. cannot put up the rents, and the Government think that it would be wrong to put the charge on the ratepayer because that would be too obvious and show them up so they suggest borrowing £2 million to pay those salaries.
  What kind of local government financing is that, where an authority is advised to borrow £2 million at current interest rates of about 10 per cent. to pay salaries? That sum of £2 million at 10 per cent.—the effective rate that the G.L.C. has to pay on the recent loan it launched to raise money on the market—will have doubled itself in 10 years. Then £4 million has to be found, and who will find it?
  Mr. Dempsey: How would the hon. Gentleman find it?
  Mr. Rossi: There are only one or two ways. Either the G.L.C. puts up the rents to a colossal figure in 10 years' time or it raises the rates. This is the only way local authorities raise their money for housing: either they charge the tenant for his accommodation or they put the cost on the ratepayer.
  The Minister is saying that it is politically inconvenient to put it on the tenant. That is what the Bill is all about. We have a General Election coming up fairly soon, and the Government do not want rents to go too high, so they are holding them back, especially as they are not allowing the trade unions to negotiate freely on wages. They say, "We must compensate for that somehow, so we freeze rents, but we cannot allow the ratepayers to carry this burden, because we might be criticised for that. So we will tell the local authority to borrow more and more money at higher and higher rates of interest to postpone the evil day, so that our children and grandchildren will have to meet this colossal bill in 10, 20 or 30 years' time" That is the economics of the Labour Government and it is there on the record to be seen.
  The Minister will be able to tell us in reply whether or not he or his predecessor gave this advice to the G.L.C. to borrow so as to pay the salaries of people in its housing department.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: Mr. Plummer has made many peculiar statements in the past 2½ years. The hon. Gentleman is illustrating a problem that appears to have arisen in 1967 when Mr. Desmond Plummer arrived. By April, 1970, it will be gone, as will Mr. Desmond Plummer. So I urge the hon. Gentleman to contain himself.
  Mr. Rossi: I hope that the hon. Gentleman has an easy way of finding £2 million, or—what we are talking about—a total deficit of £14 million on the Greater London Council housing revenue account in the next year, if the Government continue to pursue their present policies of maintaining dear money and high interest rates, and at the same time do not allow the local authority to recoup the rents from people who can afford them. That is all that the argument is really about,

  1201
  it is about whether or not tenants who can afford to pay a fair rent for their property should do so.
  The Greater London Council has a rent rebate scheme which helps those who cannot afford to pay a full rent for their accommodation. In the third stage of its scheme, which was extended on 6th October, that relief extends to families with young children that have household incomes of up to £30 a week. If a family with an income of about £30 a week can still qualify for a rent rebate, I do not think that it can be said that the G.L.C. is being particularly harsh and demanding in its attitude towards its tenants.
  May I quote a specific example again, because there is nothing like specific examples to underline an argument. I have a whole table of examples here, if Members are interested. One example is that of a husband, wife and three children under school age, the husband earning £20 a week. Their rent rebate under the scheme would reduce a rent of £4 10s. a week to £1 15s. No matter to what level the rent for their flat may be raised, in that the G.L.C. says that the flat is now worth not £4 10s. but £5 or £5 10s. a week, the family would still pay only £1 15s. a week in rent. When the children have left school they will pay more, because the burden on the family is less. If the husband's salary goes up, they will possibly pay more, arid if it goes down they will probably pay less. That is the essence of a differential rent scheme, to tailor the rent to what the family can afford.
  Before hon. Gentlemen opposite sound off, talking about rents in the G.L.C. area, I invite them to take a close look at the rent rebate scheme. They will see that families with incomes of up to £30 a week are not being asked to pay more than they can afford in rent, no matter at what figure the rent of their accommodation may be fixed in theory. This is patently fair. The net effect of such a system is that those who can afford it pay a fair rent for their accommodation. The subsidy they obtain from the general body of ratepayers and taxpayers, many of whom may be little better off, is minimal. But if they cannot afford the rent because of their family circumstances, then, no matter the level at which their accommodation may be priced, they will
  1202
  pay a lower rent in accordance with their means. I thought that was a very good Marxist doctrine to be followed— "to each according to his needs".
  I do not know what hon. Members opposite are quarrelling about. They are not really quarrelling, because, when they studythe scheme, they understand and appreciate its fairness. But there is more political capital in persuading tenants that they should revolt against a local authority. When one gets near to an election, hon. Members opposite remember the people who do not like having to pay more money for rent or any other expense. There is political kudos to be gained by saying, "I am on the side of the people who do not like to pay", because there are many more of them than people who are willing to pay.
  But what one must do in social justice is to examine the scheme in the round, in its entirety, to see whether as a whole it is fair, whether individuals are in fact paying more than they can afford, whether in fact individuals are oppressed by the rents they are asked to pay, whether it is right or wrong for a man who can afford to pay the rent to expect to receive from his neighbours subsidies in order to help him pay it. These are the questions to which the Labour Party should be directing its attention, and if hon. Members opposite do so, they will not fail to see the fairness and justice of a scheme of this kind towards the community as a whole.
  Mr. Driberg: The hon. Gentleman said that he did not understand what we were quarrelling about, but I think that he does not understand the basic quarrel. The Bill is admirable so far as it goes. However, some of us believe that there ought not to be any private property in rented accommodation, but that all rented accommodation should be in common ownership.
  Mr. Rossi: I did not intend to deal with Part II of the Bill, and all I have been discussing is publicly owned property. I have been directing my remarks entirely to the situation that persists in local authority housing. In as much as the G.L.C. has been under attack this afternoon, I thought it only right to demonstrate by one or two actual examples what the situation was. I do not intend

  1203
  to go into the argument whether there should be private ownership of property to rent, because that argument has already been canvassed. The House should realise that the rents of G.L.C. property are about 80 per cent. lower than the fair rents fixed by rent officers for comparable private rented property.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: Nonsense. I can take the hon. Gentleman, tomorrow morning if he wishes, to council property in my constituency where the current rent is £7, £8 or £9 a week.
  Mr. Chataway: I happen to have the figures with me. The average regulated tenancy rent is 80 per cent. higher than the average G.L.C. rent.
  Mr. Rossi: I was saying that the G.L.C. rent was 80 per cent. lower. Whichever way one puts it, the fact remains that a tenant of a G.L.C. property who is not getting a rebate because he does not need one, who has sufficient income to be able to afford the full rent, is nevertheless paying considerably less than he would have to pay for similar private accommodation, and less than his neighbours have to pay if they live in privately rented property. Also, this is when his neighbours are paying rents not at the levels demanded by a grasping landlord, but at levels fixed by a rent officer employed under legislation introduced by a Labour Government.
  This is the true situation. When fixing a fair rent, a rent officer entirely disregards scarcity value. In other words, he entirely disregards the market factors of supply and demand. He is statutorily required to do that. He fixes a rent which is fair having regard to the accommodation, the locality, the amenties and so on. Yet there is still this tremendous variation.
  The tenant of private accommodation does not get any subsidy. There is no question of a subsidy for him, although if he could not afford to pay it I should be prepared on another occasion to argue that perhaps there should be machinery to give him some kind of subsidy through the Ministry of Social Security. But that is another matter. I believe that all families who are hard up should in social justice receive help from the remainder of the community, but that those who do
  1204
  not need it should stand on their own feet and pay their own way and not require to be supported by their neighbours and friends.
  That is the essence of the difference between this side of the House and that. We say this knowing that it is unpopular to suggest that people should pay perhaps a little more out of their pockets for their rents. As my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Silvester) said, purely electoral considerations are not sufficient when one is dealing with a problem of this kind, and we are all agreed that housing is one of the country's most desperate social problems. We should be united in trying to solve it, and we shall not do so by the kind of class warfare which Labour Members persistently try to create.
  Mr. Dempsey: Speak for yourself.
  Mr. Rossi: Oh, yes! We had earlier speeches from hon. Members opposite to say that they were on the side of the angels, on the side of the tenants and the exploited, while the Opposition were on the side of the landlords. We have had a repetition of the political football match which has bedevilled housing in the postwar years and largely created these housing problems. If hon. Members opposite think that that is an exaggeration, I refer them to the Milner Holland Report on London where precisely that is said.
  We were talking earlier about encouraging private capital to come into housing so that more rented accommodation could be provided for the community. Private capital does not come in because of the Labour Party's mucking about with housing in the post-war years. People who have capital to invest will put it into unit trusts or some kind of savings, such as building societies.
  Mr. Iremonger: Local authority loans.
  Mr. Rossi: The last thing they will do with it is to put it into bricks and mortar to rent to someone else, because the Labour Party has made it impossible for them to be sure that their investment will remain secure. The Labour Party makes a great boast of what it regards as its contribution to housing. It has contributed more to the decline of the housing stock than even the wind and rain and dilapidation have done.
  Mr. Denis Howell: The hon. Gentleman's colleagues were in office for 13 years, and they put these precepts into practice. They made a free market in rents by withdrawing all controls. They created such chaos through the evictions which followed the Henry Brooke Rent Act that when we returned to power we had to put the matter right, and they did not have the nerve to vote against us because they had to support the logic of our convictions.
  Mr. Rossi: That is a typical Labour Party Hyde Park Corner exaggeration which hears no relation to the facts and circumstances.
  Mr. Denis Howell rose—
  Mr. Rossi: I feel that I have trespassed sufficiently on the time of the House. The House has listened patiently to me and I hope that I have left it with a few thoughts. I hope that the House will realise that local authorities have a tremendous problem which, in the main, has been created by this Government. The problem will by no means be eased by the Bill, which will mean that if a better contribution cannot be obtained from tenants who can afford to pay it, the general body of ratepayers will ultimately have to foot the bill.
  8.10 p.m.
  Mrs. Lena Jeger: The Bill is a limited one, and in many ways does not go far enough. I want to limit myself to Part II, which deals with the private tenant in a regulated tenancy and represents one more attempt by the Government to try to protect the tenant from the natural rapacity of the typical private landlord
  My right hon. and hon. Friends have only two choices. I can recall that some years ago the Minister of Housing and local Government received one of the warmest ovations ever given in that generous tradition of the Labour Party conference, when the platform, with the assent of the conference, carried a policy that was called the municipalisation of rented houses. The only thing wrong with that policy was that I found the name not very euphonious. If we intend to take housing out of the market place, there is only one way to do it. Unfortunately, this radical socialist idea has
  1206
  been temporarily put on one side—and I stress temporarily—because I believe that the logic of events will bring our party and our Government back to this policy.
  The alternative is to continue with a succession of attempts at protective legislation, so that the worst excesses of private landlordism, it is hoped, will be curbed. The history of rent legislation in this country is of successive Governments being forced to enact protective legislation, because of the rapacity of private landlords, especially the property companies, in trying to make as much money as they can out of their investments. I do not blame them; I just say that it has nothing to do with a Socialist approach to housing or politics—
  Mr. Driberg: Nor with social justice.
  Mrs. Jeger: Nor with social justice, which was a phrase which came strangely from the other side of the Chamber tonight.
  I know that there are many arguments about the former policy, which I prefer, and that there are many landlords in a small way of business who are hard put to it and with whom I have every sympathy. The only thing that is wrong with them is that they are landlords. I believe that it is a bad human relationship and that owning someone else's home is not a good way to earn a living.
  There has been a fast decline in the numbers of private landlords, and that tendency, particularly in my constituency, is for the big speculative property companies to be the main landlords. It is against some of them that the Government must continue to protect the tenant until the time comes when the blocks of flats which I have in mind are taken into common ownership—that is a much better phrase than the official phrase of municipalisation. We could then get some sense into housing finance and stop this arid argument about whether something is more unfair to a private tenant than to a council tenant, and that poor private tenants are subsidising rich council tenants.
  Mr. Iremonger rose—
  Mrs. Jeger: There should not be any private tenants. I should like to see local

  1207
  housing authorities with an across-the-board responsibility for all rented accommodation in their areas. They could use housing associations in working this out. There would then be a tremendous variety of rent levels, suitable accommodation for families of different sizes and people could have a choice of the district in which they live. This would be all carried out through the town hall or the housing authority.
  Mr. Iremonger: The hon. Lady went on almost to answer my question, but not quite. Does not she agree with me that, if it were necessary to put housing into communal ownership, it would be just as desirable to cut out the public authority and put it into housing association ownership; how then does she answer the problem that the housing association will have to pay itself the economic rent which the landlord would be charging anyway?
  Mrs. Jeger: There is, I am sure, a great future for housing associations. The hon. Gentleman points out that people in a housing association would have to pay economic rents, but at least they would not have to pay economic rents plus the landlord's profits, plus the dividends of the property companies which, for all the crocodile tears from the Opposition, are flourishing in central London. It is true that they are finding that there is a bit more money in unlet offices than in the homes which are so badly needed. and so there is the obscene scandal of Centre Point in my constituency. If ever there were a reproach to the private developer, it is Centre Point, and I cannot understand why it has been allowed to remain empty and undisturbed for so long.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: My hon. Friend will know that in my constituency there is 50,000 square feet of super-office space which is available at any time of the week and at any time of the year.
  Mrs. Jeger: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. That is a common experience, not only in central London but in the centre of all our big cities, because the philosophy of the private developer is to develop at the greatest profitability. That is why I say that property developers
  1208
  should have nothing to do with the housing of people.
  Part II of the Bill deals with the increases which may be permitted under regulated tenancies. Does not my hon. Friend think that the Bill needs to be strengthened, so that penalties could be imposed on landlords who offend against the modest increases which are permitted in the regulated rents?
  There is increasing evidence in central London, particularly in my constituency, that property companies have no respect for the rent fixed by the rent officer, and that rents heavily in excess of the registered rents are being asked for. I have sent details to my right hon. Friend. rn one case the rent officer registered a rent at £271 in April, 1967—and that was plenty of money, too. The amount of rent now required from a prospective tenant—and I saw the letter from the owners of the block—is £525.
  There is a second example in the same block of flats of a dwelling with a registered rent of £303 in relation to which I saw a letter that asked for £550. There is a total disrespect for the law of the land. These people are animals in a jungle and ought not to be allowed to have anything to do with the housing of our people.
  When the two matters were looked into by the rent officer the property company murmured that since the rent was fixed it had carried out some decorations and made some improvements. That may well be the case. If that were the case, all it had to do was to go back to the rent officer or appeal to the rent assessment committee. In my experience rent assessment committees put up the registered rent far more often than they ever reduce it. But these people are counting on ignorance and the tremendous pressure on people to get somewhere to live in central London. It is only occasionally and accidentally that one can get this kind of evidence.
  While these cases were being investigated, the same firm advertised a flat with a registered rent of £400 at a figure of £700 exclusive. I have with me the report from the rent officer in the London Borough of Camden. Those are three cases in which I happen to have documentary evidence. If those firms are

  1209
  carrying out such practices, how many more firms are behaving in a similar fashion. How many more firms are being totally contemptuous of the needs of the people and the law of the land?
  I hope that the information which I have given to the Minister, together with the name of the well known property company, will be passed to the Francis Committee, and that in Committee an Amendment will be inserted to provide serious penalties for behaviour of this kind. I should like to see the confiscation of blocks of property where this kind of behaviour is found to take place. I would not even requisition them. Such people do not deserve to have such property if they behave in this way.
  There is another block of flats in my constituency which was rather old and in bad shape. The company which purchased it, at a not very high price, then went into negotiation with the borough council for improvement grants. A great deal of money, including public as well as private money, was spent in improving these flats. and in making them slightly more fit to live in. As part of this exercise a rent was agreed as a condition of the improvement grant given by the council.
  The other day I went to those flats to see some constituents and I found that they had left. Three new people, all adults, were living there. I asked what rent they were paying and they told me that it was seven guineas a week. The agreed rent had been £2 5s. The previous tenants had moved away, the landlord had put in a couple of chairs, a table and a bed—the absolute bare minimum. He considered that this relieved him of his responsibility for honouring the agreement into which he had entered with the council as a condition of all this public money being poured into these private flats. That is what I call a subsidy. It is time that somebody thought about the subsidies we are proposing to pay, and are paying, to private landlords of that calibre and left the council tenant alone.
  In view of this kind of desperate and shocking example of the way in which property companies are capable of behaving, I beg my right hon. and hon. Friends to see whether we cannot put more teeth into the Bill to strengthen it.
  1210
  Perhaps it could be made clear in the Bill that any rent charged in excess of registered rent or in excess of permitted increases would carry the most heavy penalties.
  It is not just a matter of money. It has had a noticeable effect. The whole social pattern is changing, because with these high rents being charged the tenancies are being taken up by groups of adults. I have found three or four waiters from Soho sharing a flat, or three or four secretaries. There is nothing wrong with that, for they must have somewhere to live. But because rents are so outrageously high the ordinary family man cannot take these flats. It is not a practicable proposition for these high rents to come out of one wage packet. So the family man is being pushed further away from where he wants to live.
  The trouble is that many people find even these high rents acceptable because they are able to share accommodation, often in overcrowded conditions. Many of them have come to London from overseas or for some other reason and are desperate for accommodation, so long as they can find enough people to share in the kitty, they then have a roof over their heads. Unfortunately, they do not go to the rent officer as often as they should when overcharging occurs. I want to know what is to happen next, and so do many rent officers.
  I have concentrated on this one aspect of the problem. We can spend hours in the House talking about the statistics of housing. But we must get down to the basic fact that we shall not get any sense in our housing policy or housing financing. we shall not get housing out of the market place, so long as we permit large property companies and speculative developers to have such a large share of the market.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: Before my hon. Friend concludes, she will know of the Victoria Dwellings adjacent to our constituencies. The Greater London Council has been responsible for rehousing the families, paying the cost of purchase and has left the land for the owners to dispose of. Since this land is zoned industrial, she will know the value of the land, which the owners can now sell at an enormous profit.
  Mrs. Jeger: I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury (Mr. R. W. Brown) for giving yet another example of this capitalist jungle in the property market, particularly in central London. I hope that the Bill will be strengthened in Committee and that account will be taken of some of these outrageous shortcomings.
  8.28 p.m.
  Mr. James Allason: I must first declare an interest in that I am a landlord, and that brings me immediately to the speech of the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger). She spoke of the rapacity of the typical landlord. However, I can assure her that the vast majority of landlords are not rapacious. They behave themselves and welcome the provisions for fair rents, because they give them a standard on which to work.
  There is a small minority of landlords with whom the 1965 Act was designed to deal. The hon. Lady should look at that legislation, because my recollection is that it provides severe penalties for those who seek rents which are higher than those which have been registered. It is an obvious fraud, and the first one which springs to mind. I am certain that the Act contains provisions to deal with it.
  I hope that the hon. Lady will support the idea of my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) for a housing advisory bureau, where people seeking accommodation can obtain advice. Something rather better than the Citizens' Advice Bureau is needed. Such a body would need to contain real experts on housing. They would have a copy of the rent Act handy and would be able to advice people of their rights.
  When we consider council rents, it is essential to find what common ground there is between the two sides. Perhaps we can agree that it would be logical to look at existing council rents before deciding whether any increases should be permitted and, if so, what sort of increases. In many parts of the country council rents are low. In others they are high. It depends on the historic costs. In one area of my constituency, for example, gross values are taken as the
  1212
  basis of council rents, whereas the average fair rent in the area is two and a half times gross value. That means that council rents are substantially below those of corresponding private property.
  The hon. Lady would say that the answer is to municipalise the private houses since they would have to be levelled off at some stage.
  I am sure that no one desires to see a higher rent being charged than is necessary. Listening to some of today's speeches, one would think that hon. Members on this side of the House were seeking enormously high rents in order to make a profit out of housing. That is not the intention. Rent increases are required because costs are going up. Local authorities have their programmes for building new houses at expensive rates and high rates of interest. I understand that the Government subsidy represents an average of £144 per house, but even taking that into account, there must still be very substantial rents on new houses. Surely it is fairer to spread those substantial rents round the other houses.
  Where there is an intention to introduce an improved rent rebate scheme, here again, if there are to be greater subsidies to those with the lowest income, that involves increasing the rents of those with higher incomes. In some areas there may be a case for substantial rent increases and in others for smaller increases. However, it is nonsense for the Government to say that 7s. 6d. is the right figure, whatever the level of rents at the moment.
  Where there are substantial balances in the housing revenue accounts, those sums should be drawn upon first. Rents should not be increased until the balances have been absorbed. Instead, the Minister of State says that the balances in various accounts, including the repairs account, should be run down. This is absolutely crazy. The repairs account is there for repairs. There must be few council estates on which a substantial repair liability is not impending. Even with this substantial subsidy of £144 a house—the Minister was priding himself on how generous this is, and it is certainly needed in these days of high interest rates—the result is a very high liability on the Exchequer, about £30 million, I think, for this year, and continuing for 60 years.

  1213
  That is a liability of £1,800 million for council house building this year alone.
  We have never been told the reason for the drop in the building programme, but I believe that the Exchequer got fed up with paying out £144 a house. If we were building an extra 50,000 houses a year, plus a corresponding 50,000 of private housing, which still would not bring us to the 500,000 target which we were promised, that would mean an increase of £7 million a year for the Exchequer, or £400 million over 60 years. That is the real reason for the severe drop in the housing programme. So the Government cannot take too much credit for these generous subsidies, since they are self-defeating.
  In the debate on 4th November I asked the Government what they wanted local authorities to do. That was a fortnight ago. I have not had the courtesy of a reply, but as the Ministry of Housing takes about a month to answer, perhaps I shall get an answer in another fortnight. I would remind the Minister that I spoke of housing in my constituency for which, even with the subsidy of £170, the rent was £5 10s. a week. How do the Government wish the council to tackle that? First of all, is it to treat it as a rate subsidy so as to bring the rent down to the general level? Or do the Government want it to stop building houses? I do not believe that. Or do the Government want these new houses to be let at a high rent of about £5 10s. a week? Here there is a dead silence from the Government. This is where they are being thoroughly dishonest.
  There is no mention in the Bill of houses let for the first time or houses re-let to different tenants. There has been some complaint that the G.L.C. increases rates substantially when there is a relet. What do the Government say about that? We are entitled to know. I cannot believe that the Government want any of those alternatives but simply want to opt out. Then the net result must be that the ratepayer pays.
  Turning to Part II, the Minister of State spoke of the poor tenants facing increases of rent of between £1 and £2 per week. I do not know why they have to be "poor". It is always the "rich, rapacious landlord" and the "poor tenant". But many landlords are extremely poor—old ladies with one house
  1214
  representing their savings. Many houses are in that form of ownership.
  By definition these tenants are now paying £1 to £2 below the fair rent. In other words, they are being subsidised by their landlords by £1 to £2 per week.
  The Government decide that the increase must not be more than a third of the increase that is due under the fair rent. I think that this is a Bill to increase rates, to interfere with the discretion of local authorities, in complete contradiction of the Prime Minister's words, and to avoid the payment of fair rents.
  8.41 p.m.
  Mr. R. W. Brown: I should like to intervene in the debate, although it has been observed that I have intervened a. little too much already. However, I was worried whether I should be called, and, clearly, I had to back up, as it were, to make sure. I intervene on the point that I raised in an intervention about the subject of housing associations, charities, or whatever one likes to call them.
  I have a case in my constituency, of which the Minister is aware, but he has consistently replied that he is not in a position to do anything about it. However, I suggest that, according to the Bill, he is in a position to do something about it. I do not wish to go into great detail about this case, but it illustrates why I want it looked at.
  The estate to which I refer was built in 1910. Next year it will finish its payments and will be completely profit-making, although last year's balance-sheet for this estate shows that it is in profit to the tune of over £4,000. This is before the charity decided in 1968 to have a complete revision of its rents. It could have done this during the past 58 years, but it has chosen 1968, when the country is beginning to recover from the malaise of pre-1964, to put it to outside valuers, who have apparently determined that the rents for these properties —58 years old—are £X. It does not challenge the valuers' report, as it would if it were the district valuer. It would have had about five valuers checking on the district valuer's valuation. This value they believe is absolutely right and cannot be wrong.

  1215
  The rents adduced from the valuation would be nearly twice as much as now taken over a two or three year period. It is argued that because some of the premises have been modernised by the tenants, who in some cases have been there for more than 30 years, they have to pay the extra on top of the new rent that has been determined. The argument for doing that is that it is within the Government's prices and incomes policy because it is doing it by 7s. 6d. a year up to 1973.
  When I challenged the charity on this matter I was told that it had no subsidy from the Government; it was a charity. In fact, the manager said: "The tenants have their own door, and a bath in the kitchen, which is covered over when it is not in use". This is disgraceful. I hope that my hon. Friend is seized of the point. It is long past the time when housing associations and charities should come under the same rules as anybody else, because they are now no longer what they were at the turn of the century.
  It is worth remembering that we have always left them out of Bills of this nature because they were the do-gooders, the people who came in because local authorities, under Tory Governments, from the turn of the century were not interested in the conditions in which people were living. I refer to the Pea-bodies, the Guinnesses, the Rowntrees and Robert Owen before them who took the view that it was somebody's responsibility to see that people lived in decent conditions.
  We are now urged to go back to the concept of housing associations and rely on them to do the job. That sounds a good idea, but who are the people running these associations? In a recent debate I selected for discussion a housing association in my constituency. It is a charmer, and I am still waiting to discuss the matter with the Minister, who has given me an appointment for later in the week. I will give him some interesting information on the subject.
  I discovered, when I tried to look into this housing association in my constituency, that of eight members of the board seven are members of a construction company—and to keep things all square, the eighth is the accountant of
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  the construction company. It is disgraceful that land should be given to organisations of this kind so that building can be done in the circumstances I shall describe.
  Land was purchased by the local authority and was then offered to the housing association, the money to purchase it having been given by the local authority to the association. The housing association will build on that land to the specification of the local authority and hand 100 per cent. of the result back to the local authority. Who will win in this exercise? I repeat, the council has the land, it sells it to a housing association having given the association the money with which to buy it, the association then builds on the land to the specification of the council and hands the result back to the council. This is a ridiculous situation and I urge the Minister to look into the whole question of housing associations, which appear to be responsible to nobody.
  When I tried to discuss the affairs of the charitable organisation I realised that the problem was not really understood. Other than claiming that they are a charity, those concerned appear to have no interest in the situation. The general manager tried to prove to me that the exercise conducted in 1968 was to move from between an 8 per cent. and 12 per cent. return on the organisation's investments, and thereby provide for the future. That was what I was told. Cannot matters of this kind be brought within the Bill?
  It is important to get the whole housing problem in perspective. It is my view that this problem enters the political arena only when a Labour Government, Labour council or somebody connected with the Labour Party does or says something about it. As long as the Conservatives are in charge, life is made difficult for council tenants. That is not supposed to be political. It becomes political immediately one makes observations about the problem. It is at that point that hon. Gentlemen opposite claim that we are bringing housing into politics.
  The difficulties that we are facing in the housing sphere generally and the reason for the Bill are a direct corollary of the increase in Tory councils. It was they who challenged the concept that

  1217
  borough councils should act in equity and justice; in other words, to see that a balance was maintained between rents and rate contributions and that both were reasonable.
  The Tory Party, in County Hall and in the Conservative-controlled boroughs, say, virtually without equivocation, "We wish to make no rate fund subvention for housing. The whole cost must fall on the council tenant." Hon. Gentlemen opposite have said this today, and this is really the nub of the problem. As long as we argue around this point we shall be missing the real problem, and the result can only be anarchy. I see it in my constituency, where a Tory-controlled authority has even taken this one stage further.
  The authority has now decided to have bailiffs. If tenants, struggling, as they do, to pay the high rent, get into arrears, then when a certain undefined figure is reached, which the authority refuses to disclose to my colleagues on the council, it instructs the bailiffs to enter the house and distrain on the goods. I say that this is not legal, but I am assured that the authority has no intention of going to court.
  That, however, is not what concerns me most. What worries me is its mental approach in being prepared to consider sending in bailiffs to distrain on goods, thinking that it can do so without going to court. It says that the court takes too long and that if it does it this way, it will be much quicker. It has not thought through the problems with which it will be faced of how to distrain on goods, to whom do the goods belong, whether they are on hire purchase and how to sell furniture which will not raise anything like the money that is required.
  Hon. Members opposite are leading on these colleagues of theirs who, for the first time, have taken control of local authorities and do not know A from a cow's foot what they are doing. They are led by County Hall and by hon. Members opposite to pursue a line which can result only in anarchy. I beg hon. Members opposite to think clearly. They should realise that the inflammatory nonsense which they speak here is not rubbed out when they leave here but is used by their friends, who do not understand what they are doing.
  Mr. George Brown: Is my hon. Friend saying that the Conservative-controlled G.L.C. is putting in or threatening to put in bailiffs, who put people's furniture on the street?
  Mr. R. W. Brown: No. It is Hackney Borough Council. I have warned it about it because I believe that it is wrong. What is even more distressing is that it is leaving it to the housing manager to decide which cases are appropriate. The politicians do not have the "guts" to take the decision. By the time opposition members know that these things have happened, there will have been distraint on the goods and the whole trouble will be over. It is scandalous that this is allowed to go on. I am having discussions with my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to see what one can do about it.
  The red herring of subsidies has frequently been drawn. I am pleased that my hon. Friend brought it up in his opening speech, because the position must be clearly understood. My hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence), in an excellent contribution, clearly disproved the idea that all council tenants are spivs and drones who in some way earn vast sums of money. Hon. Members opposite were keen to use average figures when it suited them, but why do they not use the average figures of wages, which are nowhere near the £50 and £60 which are often quoted, but are, in fact, £23 10s. or £24? Averages must be taken all the way down the line.
  As I said in an intervention, the Greater London Council in my constituency is charging £7, £8 and £9 a week for property. All I am observing is that my constituents are simply not in a position to pay that sort of money.
  In my constituency also we have the sort of flats that the original Tory London County Council built. It built some stuff in my constituency which is really horrible. Now, it has put bathrooms in the kitchens and they are covered over when they are not in use. If somebody is waiting to be moved out for reasons of over-occupation or on medical grounds, I write to the G.L.C. to ask it to look at the case, but it does not want to know.
  When the council moves somebody out, it cannot get anybody to take the tenancy

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  nowadays. Now it has a wonderful system. By increasing rents to their present heights, it makes it obvious to many people that they cannot afford them. The council then says, "You can go to Crossbow House. It is not all that good, but it is better than you have". The council is using this device in housing, which I find absolutely abhorrent.
  Mr. Arthur Jones: The hon. Gentleman is using generalities. I know that the examples he is giving have occurred in the borough he represents, but they are not definitive. We cannot draw any positive conclusions from the case he is making or from the allegation he is making against us. He is indulging in generalities. Will he be a little more specific and say to what speeches he is referring?
  Mr. Brown: I have not time to do that, because I have been told that I must sit down by 9 o'clock.
  Mr. Arthur Jones: Be definitive.
  Mr. Brown: I am being definitive when I am talking about my constituents who are paying £9 a week.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Gorbals (Mr. McElhone), whom I congratulate on his excellent maiden speech, cogently asked how the situation is to be controlled for the lower-paid, because their choice is limited. I have listened to the cry, "Let people purchase their homes. Give them the opportunity to buy council houses". In my constituency, where people are warehoused at between 136 and 200 persons to the acre, who wants to buy the type of flat to which I have referred with a bath in the kitchen? How can people buy their houses? There is nothing to buy. It is absurd for hon. Members opposite to keep on pressing this point.
  My constituency is covered by two authorities each representing a population of about ¼ million. The total population is about ½ million. I was surprised to hear that in Hornsey rateable values are about £40. The rateable value for a two-bedroomed flat in my constituency is about £200, which is paid by ordinary workers employed in the docks, in the Post Office, or on the railways. Such people are my constituents. I do not have any egg heads in my constituency.
  1220
  I cannot understand why rateable values in Hornsey run at about £40, whereas my constituents, who are working class people, are being rated at anything from £150 to £200. They, too, are ratepayers. Therefore the proportion of rates that my constituents pay, warehoused as they are, is far greater than that paid by somebody in Islington who has a three-bedroomed or a four-bedroomed detached house. This shows the absurdity of the position.
  When hon. Members opposite have talked of council tenants, they have identified them clearly. They are my constituents. They are the people hon. Members opposite allege that the rest of society is keeping; they are the people who must be told to do this and that. I do not know where freedom comes into this. My constituents are paying a far greater slice of the rating cake in the London Boroughs of Islington and Hackney than anybody who is buying his house out in the north end of the boroughs.
  I regret that I have not had a chance to develop the themes that I wanted to develop this evening. I support the Bill, though I agree that it needs far more work done on it, and I hope that my hon. Friend will see whether it is possible to bring in housing associations and charitable organisations. I say that not because I think that they are wrong, and not because I think that they should be dealt with in any way other than by being brought into the ambit of the Bill. It brings in local authorities, regulated rents and private tenancies, and so it seems only just and reasonable that all those other people should come in.
  We had to have the Bill because the Tory authorities have behaved in a way which those of us who have been in local government for a long time would never have thought possible. The Government are absolutely right, in the interests of the people as a whole, to ensure that some protection is afforded.
  9.0 p.m.
  Mr. T. L. Iremonger: I was always taught that before one said anything one should ask oneself, "Is it true, is it necessary, and is it kind?" In those circumstances, I hope that the hon. Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury

  1221
  (Mr. R. W. Brown) will forgive me if I do not deal with what he said and merely make one very brief point.
  The Bill will stop my borough and the Greater London Council, in whose area my borough is situated, from putting up council house rents to cover the costs of their housing. The result will be that other people will have to pay the money, and it will either be ratepayers who may well be less well off than those who would otherwise pay the rents, or ratepayers in the generality, who will have to finance the borrowing that will be necessary in place of increased rents. That is absolutely wrong and inequitable.
  It would certainly be defensible if one could say that the rents would be too high for people to afford. This raises the hideously thorny question of what is a fair rent, and what people can afford. I do not think that there is such a thing as a fair price. To bring the concept of justice and fairness into a mechanism which is connected not with justice and fairness but with demand and supply gets us into a terrible economic and moral morass from which I have always tried to extricate myself as soon as possible.
  If we are to say that we do not want people in council houses to have to pay more than they can "afford", whatever that may be, that argument cannot be used against the proposals to raise rents both in my borough and in the Greater London Council area, because a rent rebate scheme is operated. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey (Mr. Rossi) said, this means that those who are earning around £20 a week and have two children will pay only about 30s. a week rent. If that is the limit of their rent, to raise the rent of others who can afford more under such a scheme cannot be regarded as unjust or inflicting hardship on anybody.
  Therefore, it seems to me that the Bill is a revolting piece of political sucking-up and cowardice introduced in anticipation of the forthcoming elections. It tells local authorities what they must and must not do. But it is for their electors to tell them. When the elections come, if the local authorities are not justified in putting up their rents the electors will tell them so.
  1222
  It is odious and offensive, and out of keeping with the tradition of this side of the House and my idea of the rights and responsibilities of local government, that the Government should unsurp the powers, authority, initiative and responsibility of local government in this way by introducing the Bill.
  There is much more I could have said, had I had the good fortune in the 62 hours I have been sitting here to catch the eye of the Chair. But as better choices have prevailed, I hope that I may be forgiven for confining myself to what I have just said and not going into the deeper philosophy involved in the Bill, which I shall hope to condemn on another occasion.
  9.5 p.m.
  Mr. Christopher Chataway: I am glad to have been able to afford my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, North (Mr. Iremonger) five minutes after his long wait. I agree with him that the Bill is not totally unconnected with the local government elections to be held next year. I shall return to that theme later.
  I first congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow, Gorbals (Mr. McElhone) on his maiden speech. I am sorry that he is not here now, but I hope that my remarks will reach him and that he will accept that we on this side enjoyed his speech and look forward to hearing him on many occasions again. He declared independence in forthright tones and made it clear that he would not always be in agreement with his Front Bench, although he was able to support it today. I am sure that the whole House will be interested to hear him again and enjoy his robust contributions on many future occasions. I am glad to see him back in the Chamber now.
  Two arguments for the Bill were deployed by the Minister of State which I do not think were deployed from back benchers opposite in the debate. I want to address myself initially to these. The first argument was that the Bill was agreed with everyone except the G.L.C., that it was all fixed up with the local authority associations, that it was noncontroversial,and that everyone thought it was fine except for the wretched G.L.C., which would argue about

  1223
  absolutely anything. I was glad that none of the Minister's hon. Friends chose to follow him in that line.
  The Minister of State knows perfectly well that it was made clear by the local authority associations that, while they recognise that the Bill represents some improvement over what went before, they are none the less firmly opposed to Government interference. In the letter from Mr. Swaffield, Secretary of the A.M.C., to its members, it was made clear that this acceptance was given
  "… without becoming in any way a party to decisions on those matters or endorsing them."
  Second, it was made clear also to the associations, when they were summoned to have confidential discussions on the matter, that it might be this degree of freedom or none at all. Mr. Taylor, Chairman of the London Boroughs Association, from whom I have a letter, said,
  "As the Government clearly had no intention of conceding complete freedom to the local authorities at this stage, the only alternative was no relaxation at all."
  Mr. Denis Howell indicated assent.
  Mr. Chataway: I see the Minister of State nodding at that. I hope, therefore, that his hon. Friend, in replying, will not claim, as he did, that the local authority associations had agreed to the Bill, because that is obviously not the case.
  Mr. R. W. Brown rose—
  Mr. Chataway: The hon. Gentleman has intervened about 20 times in the debate. I will give way later to him but not immediately.
  The plain fact is that there is general opposition in principle to Government interference in the fixing of local authority rents from local authority associations and the G.L.C.
  The other argument deployed solely from the Front Bench opposite was that the Bill had to do with incomes policy. I do not think that that justification for it was advanced by anyone else opposite —perhaps because no one else actually believes that there is a Government incomes policy. But I was interested to divine from the hon. Gentleman's argument what I thought was a strange
  1224
  approach to incomes policy, although, of course, it is not confined to him but is common to the Government's dealing with incomes policy and rents over the past two years.
  What I find difficulty in following is this line of argument: the Government take the view that any increase in rents will be a stimulus to wage and salary increases, but apparently they do not take the view that any increase in rates or in taxation consequent upon not increasing rents will equally be a stimulus to wage and salary increases.
  Mr. Denis Howell: Rubbish!
  Mr. Chataway: Perhaps the Minister of State will notice in the demands of the teachers which have erupted in the last week or two that their argument is continually based on their terms of remuneration after tax. They are perpetually pointing to their take-home pay. I should have thought that this was one example of a salary demand which had clearly been stimulated, at least in part, by the rates of tax payable on salaries between, say, £800 and £2,000.
  But the debate has not revolved around this argument. It was only from the Front Bench that one got any clear impression that this was a Bill intended to have only a limited duration. I do not think that I am falsifying any of the arguments of Labour Members when I say that all of them argued for the Bill in principle and in perpetuity. I see many reassuring nods. It is something which they want to last. They believe that it is right that the Government should have control over the rent-fixing powers of local authorities, at least when they are a Labour Government and they are Conservative local authorities.
  I should like to deal with Part II, which controls the rents of regulated tenancies. We had an interesting speech from the hon. Lady the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger) in which she reminded the House that the present Minister of Housing, whom we are sorry not to see here, in former days had earned many an ovation from a Labour Party conference for acclaiming the municipalisation of rented property as party policy. She argued that that was what party policy ought to be today.

  1225
  I do not go along with the hon. Lady. I do not believe in the municipalisation of rented property, but I sometimes feel that if the Government were pursuing that policy, at least it would be a coherent consistent policy. They would know what they were doing, and they would be aiming at something. It is difficult in their dealings with the private landlords or the local authorities to discern any consistency of principle in their policy over the last year or two.
  The effect of Part II is to postpone still further the time when many owners will receive a fair rent for their property, a fair rent as determined under the Government's own Rent Act, 1965. As a result of the Bill, those owners will be required to continue to subsidise the tenant for a further period. It will not be a subsidy in any way related to the needs of either the owner or the tenant. By definition, accepting the terms which have been employed entirely by Labour Members, this is perpetuating unfair rents.
  I recognise that fairness to landlords has never been an ideal to which hon. arid right hon. Gentlemen opposite could have been said to be obsessively devoted. On occasions, they have boasted of their prejudice against the private landlord, sometimes forgetting, as one or two hon. Members today have forgotten, that 60 per cent. of the landlords own only one house and that 40 per cent. of that 60 per cent. are old-age pensioners. [Laughter.] That gets great laughs from the Treasury Bench. The idea of old-age pensioners being forced to subsidise other tenants is obviously a matter for considerable mirth.
  Perhaps I might recall to the House a paragraph from the Milner Holland Report on London housing in 1965. That report, which was critical of the housing policies and attitudes of all Governments since the war, contained as much sense on housing as one will find concentrated within any one document. On the diminishing supply of rented private accommodation, the report said:
  "This trend will not be halted, still less reversed, unless investors can be assured that, provided their properties are properly maintained and managed, they will be free from the hazards of political uncertainty and able to obtain an economic return."
  That was the principle which that report laid down.
  1226
  I believe that a casual pre-election gesture of the kind contained in Part II, postponing still further the payment of fair rents, can do an enormous amount of damage to confidence—[Interruption.] If one is to have private investment in housing, there must, as the Milner Holland Report suggested, be some prospect for the private landlord of a return immune from political uncertainties.
  What has been the result of the policies of the last two or three years? The Ministry of Housing's Statistics Bulletin of May 1969 gives a global picture of the stock of dwellings available in this country. Table 4, on page 71, shows the number of dwellings which are rented from local authorities and the number rented from private owners. It covers the period from April, 1966, to December, 1968, a period when the Government, of course, have sought to stimulate council housing. One remembers the crusading efforts during that period of the right hon. Gentleman who is now the Patronage Secretary greatly to increase the stock of council houses. Of course, things have gone steadily wrong since then, but this covers some of the more hopeful days of this Administration.
  What these figures show is that the gain there has been in rented accommodation by way of an increase in the stock of council houses has been almost wiped out by the loss of rented accommodation in the private sector. During this period there was an increase of council houses in England of 336,000, but a loss in the stock of dwellings rented from private owners of 319,000—a net gain of only 27,000. ln Scotland as a whole there was a gain in council housing of 26,000 and a loss in houses rented from private owners of 16,000—a gain of only 10,000.
  The Minister of State may console himself by thinking that that loss was all of slums; but slums are only a small proportion, and what is being lost in rented accommodation is a great deal, which landlords are reasonably either selling or in some other way taking out of the rented private sector.
  I hope it will be accepted by the House that the effect of Part II must be further to discourage the supply of rented accommodation.
  I turn now to Part I—
  Mr. William Baxter: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves that point, could he give us the figures of the number of houses that have been demolished in the City of Glasgow during the last four years?
  Mr. Chataway: The hon. Member may be surprised, and the Minister of State, Scottish Office may be absolutely astounded, in view of the high opinion he has of my abilities, to know that I do not actually carry all the figures relating to every individual town and city in Britain in my head. The point will be well taken by the hon. Member that we have to be concerned with every sector of the housing market, and to see one sector like this declining rapidly out of existence is a major contributory cause to the growing homelessness in the country.
  Most of the debate has centred on Part I, and it will be clear that on this side of the House we see an objection of principle to interfering with the local authorities' duties to fix reasonable rents under the 1957 Rent Act. When last year the Government controlled the local authorities' powers in this respect, they were returning to a position which had not prevailed before the 1935 Housing Act. In the 1920s and the early 'thirties Governments were continually interfering with the powers of local authorities to fix fair rents.
  It was as a result of the incessant confusion which arose over this division of responsibilities that the 1935 Act put the responsibility firmly on the local authority. In the last couple of years I have had some opportunity to observe at first hand the division of responsibility between local and central government. Anyone who moves from Whitehall into a county hall is bound to be impressed, or rather depressed, by the amount of painstaking work done in that county hall which is then re-done in Whitehall. Again and again one saw perfectly able and competent civil servants in the town hall working out a problem, and with members, arriving at what they believed to the best solution. Then they had to refer it to a Government Department for the whole process to be gone over again.
  It is suggested that this Bill will require the employment of only two more personnel. One can envisage the number
  1228
  of minutes that will be written from executive officers, from principal assistant secretaries, from assistant secretaries to under-secretaries, the amount of time that will be taken up in administration of this Bill—the time of senior civil servants and Ministers. The remarks of the Prime Minister to the A.M.C. have already been quoted but they should be repeated. He said:
  "It is my hope that the reorganisation of local government will provide an opportunity, and that the incentive—and this opportunity will be taken—for a fresh attack on this problem of central financial control, so that we can reduce the number of points on which decisions are taken by Ministers, even by Parliament. I assure you that on this, as on the basic conclusions of Maud, which the Government have already accepted, we mean business, as I know you do".
  It is an astonishing way to start demonstrating that the Government mean business by bringing in just two Bills in this session which affect local government, both of them removing powers from local government and placing them with the central Government. I am of course talking about the Education Bill and this one. This Bill is thoroughly bad management, if nothing else. The responsibility for fixing rents ought to be with the local authorities, who are bound to know far more about it than central government.
  Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have had a good deal to say about the policy of the Greater London Council, and, with an eye on next year's municipal elections, have already had a canter or two over the ground. I would refer them to the 1965 White Paper of this Government. That was a time when the Government still were attempting a coherent housing policy, and when the 500.000 houses target was firmly embodied in the National Plan; it all seems a very long time ago. The White Paper said:
  "Subsidies should not be used wholly or even mainly to keep general rent levels low. Help for those most in need can be given only if subsidies are in large part used to provide rebates for tenants whose means are small."
  That we agree with, and it is a sad and sorry thing that the Government should have run away from that declaration of principle which they know to be right.
  The objection to across-the-board subsidies of the kind that hon. and right hon. Gentlemen have been defending, subsidies

  1229
  paid alike to those who need them and those who do not, are manifold. These subsidies undoubtedly lengthen the waiting lists. If all council housing is subsidised, irrespective of need, obviously very few will voluntarily purchase their own homes and vacate new council houses. They cause hardship to ratepayers, and I do not think anybody here will deny that that happens. They further discourage the provision of private rented accommodation, because people think that in the long term it will be impossible to compete. They discourage owner-occupation, perhaps particularly in Scotland. In general, indiscriminate subsidy, which is paid alike to those who need it and those who do not, would make impossible the scheme, which is now being argued for by many people of all political persuasions, to pay to those in regulated tenancies rent rebates on the same basis as to those in council accommodation.
  The G.L.C. in the past two years has been attempting to bring the level of rents in G.L.C. council houses up to the fair rent level that prevails in the private sector as a result of the Government's 1965 Housing Act. That seems to me to be not only a reasonable objective but the only reasonable objective, and the council intended to do that not immediately but over three years. The council intended that over that three years the rate subsidy, which was running at £4 million when the Conservative Party took over, should be eliminated, and that the only subsidy being paid should be the Exchequer subsidy. What has happened, as a result of Government interference, is that the contribution from rates to rents within the G.L.C. area has risen within two years from £4 million to £8 million. That is a direct consequence of Government intervention, and yet the Government are still prepared—at least the Prime Minister is—to profess some interest in local government.
  What possible justification is there for even continuing with local government if during an election a party—as the Conservative Party in London did—has gone to the electors, has spelt out in detail what it intends to do, has been elected with a massive majority, attempts to carry out its policy, and is then frustrated all down the line by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen who are interested not in
  1230
  solving London's housing problems but merely in trying to cadge a vote or two for next year's elections.
  I do not think that any hon. Member who represents, or has represented, an area where there is an acute housing problem will take any great pleasure in the total collapse of the Government's housing policy; the disappearance of private rented accommodation; the decline in council house building, which is steeper in Socialist councils than in Conservative councils; the soaring cost of land and housing and rising interest rates so that house mortgages are put out of the reach of average wage earners; the total failure of house building with starts and completions falling rapidly and already below the 1964 levels. Almost every undertaking of 1964 and 1966 in the House, whether in the Prime Minister's phrase promises lightly given or a solemn pledge, have been dishonoured. This Bill will contribute nothing towards the solution of any of these problems. In so far as it is more than a bureaucratic irritant, it will hinder still further those who genuinely are trying to tackle Britain's housing problems. We will oppose it.
  9.31 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Dr. Dickson Mabon): It is only right and proper that a record-breaking sprinter should address a record-breaking Government, particularly on the subject of housing. We have nothing but pride in what we have achieved in housing in this country. This Bill is one modest contribution to the strenuous efforts that we have made in the past.
  The hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Chataway) wants to reverse the role of the Duke of Plaza-Toro in that he has managed to be so far ahead of his army as to be captured by the enemy. He managed to give figures of the number of houses coming out of the private sector. but said nothing about the number of houses cleared in slum areas. The number is well over 300,000 in the last six years. If one takes into account the amount of clearance taking place in the centre of the cities and the larger boroughs both in England and Wales and in Scotland, he will see that this explains in some degree what has happened in the private sector.
  He has not listened to his hon. Friends today—those wonderful converts who

  1231
  have travelled the road to Damascus through the Rent Bill of 1965. I can see a number of them before me and, as a good Christian, I would not wish to chastise a convert. We believe in the soundness of fair rents and the necessity of having a fair rents policy as a subject beyond party argument.
  Before going on to deal with the speech of the hon. Member for Chichester, I should like to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Gorbals (Mr. McElhone) on a splendid maiden speech. I am sure that he will be as distinguished a Member as Mrs. Alice Cullen, not only in the House itself but in the Gorbals district which she represented so well. The hon. Member is very keen. He has already made two speeches in the Scottish Grand Committee. One was on housing, and, for the first time in the history of the Gorbals' parliamentary representation, he spoke on the Rural Water Supplies and Sewerage Bill. We therefore appreciated his contribution all the more.
  He made a good point on the rebates scheme. In England and Wales the Minister of Housing and Local Government, and the Secretary of State for Wales as long ago as June, 1967, urged authorities to adopt good rent rebate schemes. In Scotland we have not made the same progress in giving advice from St. Andrew's House. Although nearly 90 per cent. of tenants are covered by some kind of arrangement for rebates many are not based on sound principles and help only a few tenants. However, the Scottish Housing Advisory Committee, which the Conservative Party destroyed in 1951 but which we reconstituted in 1965, is drawing up principles for recommendation to the Scottish authorities on guide lines agreed with Scottish local authority associations. They look forward to the Secretary of State issuing recommendations on this topic, and I hope that this will be done quite soon.
  I was sorry that we had no speech from the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. Lawler). He is the official Liberal spokesman on housing. Although the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) works very hard, I am sorry that the hon. Member for Ladywood has been absent. Perhaps it is because my right hon. Friend the
  1232
  Minister of Housing and Local Government managed to get out of him in c. 901 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of 4th November, 1969 that he is not the official spokesman of the Liberal Party on housing all the time but just some of the time. Therefore, we would have been very entertained by a contribution from him this evening.
  The hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) has not contributed to the debate. However, I must not be unfair to him, because he has not been completely silent. He has been speaking not far away. According to the latest intelligence that I have managed to get he has been giving the enlightened souls of this country an outline of his party's policy on housing:
  "'Own a home of your own would be the Conservative theme in the next election', said Mr. Peter Walker. the Shadow Minister of Housing and Local Government. He told the Westminster Forum"—
  which I understand is a party discussion group in London—
  "that the building of council houses would be curbed and people would be encouraged to purchase their own homes."
  I have no quarrel with the question of purchasing one's own home, but it is really letting the cat out of the bag to talk about curbing council housing. It has been our policy to encourage building in both the private and the public sector—
  Mr. Peter Walker: And what has happened?
  Dr. Mabon: If there is any regression in the public sector, it is due entirely to the activities of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite in encouraging Tory-controlled councils to cut back in their programmes. The hon. Member for Chichester had the nerve to talk about promises lightly given. What about those of the Tories in the G.L.C. elections? They promised to maintain the housing programme, but what is happening in London? Is it suggested that they have maintained the housing programme in London? If so, it is not true. It is not a promise lightly given. It is a promise broken.
  Mr. Chataway: While almost every local authority's programme has gone down, those of Socialist-controlled authorities have gone down by greatly more

  1233
  than those of Conservative-controlled authorities, as a result of high interest rates and Government Measures.
  Dr. Mabon: The hon. Gentleman is wriggling very well and very fast, but not every local authority's programme has gone down. Some have maintained their programmes and even improved on them. Those which have gone down are the programmes of Tory-controlled authorities, under instructions not from the Guru of Wolverhampton but from the Fakir of Worcester, who is now telling us—
  Mr. Peter Walker: Will the hon. Gentleman now explain why, in the last 12 months for which figures are available, the number of starts in Socialist-controlled areas has gone down by 43 per cent.?
  Dr. Mabon: You will note, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. Gentleman does not deny the accuracy of my quotation and, therefore—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—he agrees that since—[Interruption.]—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. It is getting a little warm. We have had a cool debate so far.
  Dr. Mabon: I am obliged for your defence of my interests and those of the House, Mr. Speaker.
  Since the Conservatives have assumed control in many municipal chambers, they have deliberately gone out of their way to cut their housing programmes, and the hon. Member for Worcester confirms that by his words. I repeat them:
  "The building of council houses would be curbed and people would be encouraged to purchase their own homes."
  Did he say that this evening? If he did not, I will apologise and take it up with those who have given me the information.
  Mr. Peter Walker: First of all, will the Minister of State now answer the question whether Socialist-controlled boroughs have curbed their programmes by 43 per cent. and, if so, why?
  Dr. Mabon: I was on my feet first. I asked the question first. I will answer the second question if the hon. Gentleman will answer the first one. Did he say that the building of council houses would be curbed?
  Mr. Peter Walker: I said that I would much prefer to encourage people to become owner-occupiers than to be council house tenants.
  Dr. Mabon: I am content to settle for that reply. I will read tomorrow's Press reports of his speech and compare it with what the hon. Gentleman now says. In view of that half answer, I will leave over my answer—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman has managed to occupy too much of our time. As he did not have the courage to say that in the House of Commons but would rather go outside and say it, I will reply to hon. Members who have made speeches here.
  I readily admit that the hon. Member for Chichester has made a splendid speech on behalf of the G.L.C. As an alderman, why not? But does he defend the reports that we have had from London Members of what is happening in the G.L.C.? My hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Hamling)—another silent Member—tells me that in recent months the G.L.C. has been evicting tenants who have been in arrears for quite modest amounts. We know that the moment these poor families are evicted, for whatever reason, they are immediately a problem landed on the door of the borough council not just in terms of welfare, but in terms of the ultimate rehousing of that family in council housing. This is the kind of obnoxious treatment that we are getting from the Tory-controlled G.L.C.
  The hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page), during the proceedings on the Rent Bill, was known among us as the mills of God grinding exceeding slow. However, I must not be critical of the hon. Gentleman because he is a convert. He did not like fair rents. He gave us a free confession today of his earlier misdemeanours and sins, because he admitted how wrong he was and how right we are now to maintain the fair rent system. But this willing Dobbin, this willing party horse who plods along his lonely furrow on many a night —and I have been with him on such occasions—has managed to forget, by not looking beyond his blinkers, that we are talking about the economic position. The Bill is not completely a housing Bill; it is relevant to economic policy. It may be wrong, but it is related to economic policy.

  1235
  In contrast, the hon. Member for Chichester at least did us the honour of paying a touching reference to the object of the Bill. He may not agree with it, but he took the point which the hon. Member for Crosby managed to miss out. For an old campaigner like him, it is sad to see him forget the main point in an argument.
  Mr. Graham Page: I am sorry that the Minister was not listening when I dealt with the economic factors. I said that this would not have the slightest effect on the prices and incomes policy.
  Dr. Mahon: I confess that the hon. Gentleman is better at trivia than about principles. I will give him this point on trivia. He was right when he asked the Minister of State about the two figures in his proposals. The 273 which my hon. Friend talked about were for rent increases which were rejected altogether. The 259, which he caught us out on, were those which involved an average increase of 7s. 6d. a week or less. So the difference was those concerned with 7s. 6d. However, I do not think that the hon. Member for Crosby was right about the economic points. I will try to return to this at the end of my remarks.
  The hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Allason), the young Member, which is even sadder, for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Silvester), and the hon. Members for Northants, South (Mr. Arthur Jones) and Devizes (Mr. Charles Morrison) have all urged us in different ways to look at a new system or, more particularly, to leave the local authorities alone because Whitehall did not know best. I wonder whether the constituents in Kensington and Chelsea would prefer Whitehall to know right than their own borough council which originally proposed a rent increase, not of 7s. 6d. or 10s., but of 29s. 6d. I wonder whether the electors of Sandy Urban District, which is near South Northants—[Interruption.] It is not far away, really.
  Mr. Arthur Jones rose—
  Dr. Mabon: Let us not have a geography lesson—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. If the Minister does not give way, the hon. Member for
  1236
  Northants, South (Mr. Arthur Jones) must sit down.
  Dr. Mahon: It is the county next door. Do not give a Scotsman a geography lesson at this time of night. My point is: who would be right? Would the hon. Gentleman side with the Government in trying to restrain increases or would he agree with the Sandy Urban District Council that it should be 18s. 9d.? That is a rhetorical question.
  Mr. Arthur Jones rose—
  Dr. Mabon: I can see that what hon. Gentlemen opposite are trying to do—
  Mr. Jones rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Even a rhetorical question does not entitle the hon. Gentleman to intervene. Dr. Mabon.
  Mr. Jones: The hon. Gentleman must get his facts right about the relationship of the Sandy Urban District Council and the constituency which I have the honour to represent, and he must not confuse what I said with the point that he is trying to make about the general level of rents and increases in rents. I did not deal with that at all. Will the hon. Gentleman now deal with the point that I did raise, which related to the contribution offered by the Government for the repair and maintenance of tower blocks of flats?
  Dr. Mabon: I shall return to that at the end of my speech. I accept the geographical correction, and I apologise to the hon. Gentleman for bracketing him with his hon. Friends in the argument which I am trying to refute. I realise how uncomfortable that can be.
  Are we to accept the views of the English Minister on rent increases, or those of the councillors of Lichfield Rural District Council who wanted to raise rents by 21s. 9d.? That is the point, and we in Scotland are proud that the majority of authorities have not misbehaved in the sense of having sharp and excessive increases in rent all in one year. The vast majority of authorities have behaved very well.
  What we are really dealing with is the minority of authorities, of which the G.L.C. is the prime sinner. It is because of this minority, which I mentioned earlier, and which were mentioned by

  1237
  the Minister of State at the beginning of the debate, that this problem is so important. Although we in Scotland have a large number of authorities to deal with, even though we are a small country, in dealing with 232 proposals we had to reject only 30, and of those 30 four were rejected because the average increase was more than 7s. 6d. That is pretty good. We, unlike our English and Welsh colleagues, have no need for a formal compact, almost a concordat, between State and local authorities, such as my right hon. Friend made known to the House on 6th November. We in Scotland rely simply on the note of a meeting which was circulated and approved by individual local authority associations after that meeting. There is no question of any of the acrimony which the hon. Member for Chichester tried so hard to inject into the relationship with local authority associations.
  The Association of Municipal Corporations, whatever interpretation it may have placed on this, is not the sole voice of the councils in England and Wales, never mind in Great Britain. We in Scotland would resent the suggestion that our local authorities can be spoken for by the Association of Municipal Corporations. It is entitled to its interpretation, but the fact is that we have an agreed system. It is one which has worked and will work in the future.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence) talked about the difference in private and public sector house building in Scotland, about the contrast with England, and also about our unemployment problem and the wage gap. My hon. Friend was dwelling on the fact that we have had a wage gap for some time compared with the United Kingdom as a whole, but under this Government that gap is closing rapidly. From 94·3 per cent. of the United Kingdom average as the average weekly earnings of a Scottish adult male manual worker in 1964, it is now 97·2 as at the last index. In other spheres, particularly in the manufacturing sector, and in electronics, we are beginning to see our people being paid as much as if not more than, those who are earning high wages in the south-east of England. That is why in 1968 the private sector in Scotland has built more houses in one year than was ever achieved since 1934,
  1238
  but that is still not good enough. By English standards it is a wrong proportion.
  I accept that the criticism is valid, but when we, as Scots Members, are urging Scotsmen to try to own their own homes, I think that we must rub into them the fact—and this will impress many a Scot —that there are immense financial advantages in owning one's own home. My hon. Friend the Minister of State spelled this out in British terms today, when he said that in 1969–70 this benefit is estimated to total about £224 million. He went on to say that on average an owner-occupier with a mortgage will receive about £47 10s. by way of tax relief, about half as much again as the average subsidy per council tenant, which is £30 a year. That is only arguing the capital advantage of owning one's own home. After all, it was Blatchford, an early Socialist, long before the Tory Party was thought of, who invented the phrase, "The property-owning democracy ". We are against the exploitation of people through the ownership of property by others. This is a theory of the Socialist Party, but we think of this phrase with "property-owning" hyphenated and not in terms of the property owning the democracy.
  Mr. Graham Page: The hon. Gentleman accused me of dealing with trivia, but the trivial figure which he gave was £30 as a subsidy for the council tenant. This cannot be right. Would he deal with the figure given by my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey (Mr. Rossi) of £200 and £400 in London?
  Dr. Mabon: With respect, that was dealt with by my hon. Friend. What I gave were exactly his words:
  "… just about half as much again as the average subsidy per council tenant, that is, £30 a year."
  The hon. Gentleman cannot wriggle out of that one.
  I should like to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Shoreditch and Finsbury (Mr. R. W. l3rown), not only on his excellent speech, but on the eight others which he managed to deliver in helpful interventions in the speeches of other hon. Members. I undertake to consider his very good point about charitable organisations which, in their own time and perhaps still today, are

  1239
  still justified in the housing field. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will want to consider that.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras, South (Mrs. Lena Jeger) made a very fair point about the working of the Rent Act which we hope the Francis Committee will be able to report upon. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Aston (Mr. Julius Silverman) as usual made a very constructive speech. He may have been a little disappointed that the Bill did not go as far as he would have liked. My hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt) made the same point, and another as well, which we will consider. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) also discussed the operation of the Rent Act.
  As my hon. Friends know, work on the longer-term review of housing finance is progressing. We have now spent a year on this work. The review embraces all issues relating to rents and housing subsidies, including the housing revenue account and the function of rate fund contributions, and it is taking into account the recommendations for this year of the National Board for Prices and Incomes, the report of which has been quoted so often tonight, and other bodies.
  I am very pleased to say that we now have the recent report of the Labour Party Housing Policy Study Group and of course we await the report of sub-Committee B of the Select Committee on Estimates. It is expected shortly and I hope that it will touch on the general issues of housing finance. To be worthwhile, the review which we are undertaking just now must be extensive and thorough.
  Mr. Driberg: When my hon. Friend says that all issues are being studied, does he include the extension of security of tenure to council tenants, especially in the G.L.C. areas?
  Dr. Mabon: I have no doubt that, as a consequence of what is going on now together with what has been done in the review of the working of the Rent Act, and particular points made by my hon. Friends about local authorities and housing
  1240
  associations, that point will be covered, but I will check this with my right hon. Friends to make sure that it will.
  I agree that it is neither right nor practicable that the whole of any increase should be met by ratepayers. That is what hon. Members opposite have argued against. Neither is it fair, I submit, or sensible that all increases, whatever their size, must be met by council tenants. In this Bill, the Government are taking the middle view, that there should be principles governing rent increases. Certain overriding principles are worked into the Bill, but on this occasion a number of principles have been agreed between the Government and the associations. In many cases, the form which they have taken are on the record for hon. Members to examine.
  The principles which we have recommended in the Bill concern the size of any increase and are that, normally, rents must not be increased by more than 7s. 6d. on average in any 52-week period and that no increase for any individual dwelling may exceed 10s. The Secretary of State negotiated separately the guidelines with local authorities and I am sure that that will be worth examining to see the differences which are reflected in the administration North and South of the Border.
  On regulated rents, our policy is broadly the same as that under the 1968 Act. I am very pleased that the House generally endorsed the position on the fair rents system which we introduced in 1965.
  The system of regulated rents provided for independent rent officers to fix fair rents for certain privately let houses. However, a new rent fixed by a rent officer or rent committee, even though fair can still cause hardship. I regret that this point was missed by hon. Gentlemen opposite because this is the reason for phasing rent increases. It is not a question of failing to implement them, which is what the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Loveys) tried to argue, but of being reasonable in the matter.
  Either under the 1968 Act arrangements or under the Housing Acts passed earlier this year or under this Measure, we wish to restrain the rate of increase so as to avoid creating unreasonable burdens on people. These restrictions are

  1241
  particularly important for those who are living in private accommodation, as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Gorbals (Mr. McElhone) pointed out in an excellent maiden speech.
  The size of some increases following the registration of fair rents is such as to justify the continuation of the phasing policy in the private sector, especially when rents in the public sector are being restrained. However, on this occasion we are profiting by experience. Perhaps what we are proposing will be considered to be a more acceptable arrangement than under the 1968 Act; namely, that so long as control under the Bill remains, an increase may not in a year be more than one-third of the difference between the old rent and the new regulated rent, or 7s. 6d. a week, whichever is the greater.
  I believe that I have answered most of the questions asked in the debate.
  Mr. Rossi indicated dissent.
  Dr. Mabon: I gather that the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Rossi) disagrees with me. His was the only speech I missed. If he wishes to put a question to me I will do my best to answer it, but he has only one minute flat in which to ask it, which for him might be almost an impossibility.
  Mr. Rossi: I have in mind a statement which the hon. Gentleman made earlier when he castigated—that seems to be his game tonight—the G.L.C., saying that its programme was falling back. He did not inform the House of the contents of a letter which his Department received from Mr. Desmond Plummer on 3rd November which admitted a fall back in the G.L.C. programme but which attributed it entirely to the yardstick procedures which were being adopted by the hon. Gentleman's Department.
  Dr. Mabon: I am glad that I gave the hon. Gentleman a chance to make that point. Not only is he the champion of the G.L.C., as he has been tonight, but presumably he is also defending the Haringey Conservatives. He is only proving that the house building programme has gone down as a result of the dictat of the hon. Member for Worcester. In Committee we will be able to deal with each hon. Gentleman opposite in turn. We will supply them with the necessary figures of house building programmes which have been deliberately curbed by instructions from Conservative Central Office because hon. Gentlemen opposite believe that the gentlemen in Smith Square know better than town councillors throughout the country.
  The Bill is part of the Government's policy for prices and incomes. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have tried to suggest that the Measure has no place in such a context. I do not pretend, being a modest chap, that my hon. Friends have a permanent monopoly of wisdom in these matters—[Interruption.]—but the fact that the Bill differs from the present Act shows that we are prepared to adapt to changing circumstances.
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite have little to offer, except the abandonment of attempts to control the economy. They would leave everything to a free market. We all know what that would mean. Rents would rise to a level which only the rich could afford while the poor would go to the wall. The only sensible policy on rents is the policy which we are trying to achieve, as part of our policy for prices and incomes. This is a policy of moderation. This is what the Bill seeks to achieve and I hope that the House will endorse it.
  Question put:—
  The House divided: Ayes 307, Noes 217.

  Division No. 8.]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Abse, Leo

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Albu, Austen

  Barnes, Michael

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Barnett, Joel

  Booth, Albert

  Alldritt, Walter

  Baxter, William

  Boston, Terence

  Allen, Schofield

  Beaney, Alan

  Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

  Anderson, Donald

  Bence, Cyril

  Boyden, James

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

  Bradley, Tom

  Ashley, Jack

  Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton)

  Bray, Dr. Jeremy

  Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw)

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Brooks, Edwin

  Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.)

  Binns, John

  Broughton, Sir Alfred

  Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

  Bishop, E. S.

  Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper)

  Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

  Blackburn, F.

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

  Harper, Joseph

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Buchan, Norman

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

  Haseldine, Norman

  Morris, John (Aberavon)

  Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

  Hazell, Bert

  Moyle, Roland

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Murray, Albert

  Cant, R. B.

  Henig, Stanley

  Neal, Harold

  Carmichael, Neil

  Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret

  Newens, Stan

  Carter-Jones, Lewis

  Hilton, W. S.

  Noel-Baker,Rt,Hn.Philip

  Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

  Hobden, Dennis

  Oakes, Gordon

  Chapman, Donald

  Hooley, Frank

  Ogden, Eric

  Coe. Denis

  Hooson, Emlyn

  O'Halloran, M. J.

  Coleman, Donald

  Horner, John

  O'Malley, Brian

  Concannon, J. D.

  Howarth, Robert (Bolton, E.)

  Oram, Albert E.

  Conlan, Bernard

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Orbach, Maurice

  Corbet, Mrs. Freda

  Howie, W.

  Orme, Stanley

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Hoy, Rt. Hn. James

  Oswald, Thomas

  Cronin, John

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)

  Crossman,Rt. Hn. Richard

  Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

  Owen, Will (Morpeth)

  Dalyell, Tam

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Page, Derek (King's Lynn)

  Darling, Rt. Hn. George

  Hunter, Adam

  Paget, R. T.

  Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)

  Hynd, John

  Palmer, Arthur

  Davidson,James(Aberdeenshire,W.)

  Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh)

  Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

  Davies Edynfed Hudson (Conway)

  Jackson, Peter H. (High Peak)

  Park, Trevor

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Janner, Sir Barnett

  Parker, John (Dagenham)

  Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Jeger,Mrs.Lena(H'b'n & St.P'cras,S.)

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Delargy, Hugh

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Dell, Edmund

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Pentland, Norman

  Dempsey, James

  Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

  Perry, Ernest G. (Battersea, S.)

  Dewar, Donald

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

  Diamond, Rt. Hn. John

  Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

  Dickens, James

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

  Doig, Peter

  Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West)

  Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)

  Driberg, Tom

  Judd, Frank

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Dunn, James A.

  Kelley, Richard

  Probert, Arthur

  Dunnett, Jack

  Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham)

  Pursey, Cmdr. Harry

  Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

  Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

  Randall, Harry

  Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

  Lawson, George

  Rankin, John

  Eadie, Alex

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton)

  Rees, Merlyn

  Edelman, Maurice

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock)

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Lee, John (Reading)

  Richard, Ivor

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Lestor, Miss Joan

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  English, Michael

  Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold (Cheetham)

  Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy

  Ennals, David

  Lewis, Arthur (West Ham, N.)

  Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

  Evans, Albert (Islington, S.W.)

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Robertson, John (Paisley)

  Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Robinson,Rt.Hn.Kenneth(St.P'c'as)

  Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)

  Loughlin, Charles

  Rodgers, William (Stockport)

  Faulds, Andrew

  Luard, Evan

  Roebuck, Roy

  Fernyhough, E.

  Lubbock, Eric

  Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

  Finch, Harold

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Rose, Paul

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William

  Fitt, Gerard (Belfast, W.)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Rowlands, E.

  Fletcher,Rt.Hn.Sir Eric(Islington,E.)

  McCann, John

  Ryan, John

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  MacColl, James

  Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  MacDermot, Niall

  Sheldon, Robert

  Foley, Maurice

  Macdonald, A. H.

  Short, Mrs. Renée(W'hampton.N.E.)

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  McElhone, F.

  Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

  Ford, Ben

  McGuire, Michael

  Silverman, Julius

  Forrester, John

  McKay, Mrs. Margaret

  Slater, Joseph

  Fowler, Gerry

  Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

  Small, William

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Mackie, John

  Snow, Julian

  Freeson, Reginald

  Maclennan, Robert

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Steel, David (Roxburgh)

  Gardner, Tony

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.)

  Garrett, W. E.

  MacPherson, Malcolm

  Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

  Ginsburg, David

  Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Golding, J.

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Swain, Thomas

  Gordan Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

  Mallalieu,J.P.W.(Huddersfield,E.)

  Taverne, Dick

  Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

  Manuel, Archie

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. George

  Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Mapp, Charles

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. George

  Gregory, Arnold

  Marks, Kenneth

  Thornton, Ernest

  Grey, Charles (Durham)

  Marquand, David

  Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

  Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

  Maxwell, Robert

  Tinn, James

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Tomney, Frank

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Mendelson, John

  Urwin, T. W.

  Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J.

  Mikardo, Ian

  Varley, Eric G.

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Millan, Bruce

  Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Walden, Brian (All Saints)

  Hamling, William

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Hannan, William

  Molloy, William

  Wallace, George

  1244

  1245

  Watkins, David (Consett)

  Wilkins, W. A.

  Winstanley, Dr. M. P.

  Watkins, Tudor (Brecon Radnor)

  Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

  Weitzman, David

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Woof, Robert

  Wellbeloved, James

  Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)

  Wyatt, Woodrow

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  Whitaker, Ben

  Willis, Rt. Hn. George

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  White, Mrs. Eirene

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Mr. Neil McBride and

  Whitlock, William

  W innick, David

  Mr. R. F. H. Dobson.

  NOES

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Glover, Sir Douglas

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Goodhart, Philip

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Goodhew, Victor

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Astor, John

  Gower, Raymond

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n)

  Grant, Anthony

  Mott-Radclyffe, Sir Charles

  Awdry, Daniel

  Gresham Cooke, R.

  Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Baker, Kenneth (Acton)

  Grieve, Percy

  Murton, Oscar

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Balniel, Lord

  Gurden, Harold

  Neave, Airey

  Batsford, Brian

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Nott, John

  Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Onslow, Cranley

  Bell, Ronald

  Hamilton, Lord (Fermanagh)

  Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Orr-Ewing, S r Ian

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Harris, Reader (Heston)

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  Biffen, John

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Pearson, Sir Frank (Clitheroe)

  Black, Sir Cyril

  Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

  Peel, John

  Blaker, Peter

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Percival, Ian

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Hastings, Stephen

  Peyton, John

  Body, Richard

  Hawkins, Paul

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Bossom, Sir Clive

  Hay, John

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

  Pounder, Rafton

  Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

  Heseltine, Michael

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Braine, Bernard

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Brewis, John

  Hiley, Joseph

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Hill, J. E. B.

  Pym, Francis

  Bromley-Davenport,Lt.Col.SirWalter

  Hirst, Geoffrey

  Quennell, Miss J. M.

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Ho land, Philip

  Ramsden, Rt Hn. James

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Hordern, Peter

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

  Buchanan-Smith,Alick(Angus,N & M)

  Hornby, Richard

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Buck, Antony (Colchester)

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Renton, Rt. Hn. Sir David

  Burden, F. A.

  Hunt, John

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.)

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Carlisle, Mark

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

  Channon, H. P. G.

  Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

  Robson Brown, Sir William

  Chataway, Christopher

  Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Jopling, Michael

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Clark, Henry

  Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

  Royle, Anthony

  Clegg, Walter

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Cooke, Robert

  Kerby, Capt. Henry

  Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.

  Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Scott, Nicholas

  Cordle, John

  Kimball, Marcus

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Corfield, F. V.

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Sharples, Richard

  Costain, A. P.

  Kitson, Timothy

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Craddock, Sir Beresford (Spelthorne)

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Silvester, Frederick

  Crouch, David

  Lambton, Viscount

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Crowder, F. P.

  Lancaster, Col. C. G.

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Currie, G. B. H.

  Lane, David

  Speed, Keith

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Stainton, Keith

  Dance, James

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Stoddart-Scott, Col, Sir M.

  Dean, Paul

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Summers, Sir Spencer

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

  Lloyd,Rt.Hn.Geoffrey(Sut'nC'dfield)

  Tapsell, Peter

  Digby, Simon Wingfield

  Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  odds-Parker, Douglas

  Longden, Gilbert

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Donnelly, Desmond

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Temple, John M.

  Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

  MacArthur, Ian

  Thatcher, Mts. Margaret

  Drayson, G. B.

  Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

  Tilney, John

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

  Eden, Sir John

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Elliott,R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Maddan, Martin

  Vickers, Dame Joan

  Errington, Sir Eric

  Maginnis, John E.

  Waddington, David

  Eyre, Reginald

  Marten, Neil

  Walker, Peter (Worcester)

  Farr, John

  Mawhy, Ray

  Walters, Dennis

  Fisher, Nigel

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Ward, C. (Swindon)

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Fortescue, Tim

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Foster, Sir John

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Fraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Wiggin, A. W.

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Mitchel, David (Basingstoke)

  Williams, Donald (Dudley)

  1246

  1247

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Worsley, Marcus

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

  Wright, Esmond

  Mr. Jasper More and

  Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Wylie, N. R.

  Mr. Hector Monro.

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. McBride.]
  Committee Tomorrow.

  RENT (CONTROL OF INCREASES) [MONEY]
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to limit increases in rents for local authority houses or payable under regulated tenancies, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any administrative expenses incurred by a Minister of the Crown in consequence of that Act.—[Mr. Harper.]

  HOUSING (AMENDMENT) (SCOTLAND) BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question put (pursuant to Standing Order No. 62 (Public Bills relating exclusively to Scotland)), That the Bill be committed to a Scottish Standing Committee.—[Mr. Ross.]
  Question agreed to.
  Bill (deemed to have been read a Second time) committed to a Scottish Standing Committee.

  HOUSING (AMENDMENT) (SCOTLAND) [MONEY]
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend subsection (1) of section 25 of the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1968, it is expedient to authorise—

  (1) any increase not exceeding £120 million in the sums which may be issued out of the National Loans Fund by virtue of the said section 25 which is attributable to the provisions of the said Act of the present Session;

  (2) the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any increase in the sums payable out of moneys so provided under Part I of the said Act of 1968 which is so attributable, and

  (3) the payment into the National Loans Fund of any increase in the sums received by the Secretary of State by virtue of the said section 25 which is so attributable.—[Mr. Harper.]

  OVERSEAS AID
  Ordered,
  That the Committee have power to appoint additional Sub-Committees to hear evidence abroad:
  Ordered,
  That every such Sub-Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records; to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House; and to adjourn from place to place:
  Ordered,
  That Two be the Quorum of every such Sub-Committee:
  Ordered,
  That the Committee have power to report from time to time the Minutes of the Evidence taken before such Sub-Committees:
  Ordered,
  That the Committee have power to appoint persons with specialist knowledge for the purpose of particular inquiries, either to supply information which is not readily available or to elucidate matters of complexity within the Committee's order of reference.—[Mr. Harper.]

  PUBLICATION OF PROCEEDINGS IN PARLIAMENT
  Ordered,
  That the Memoranda laid before the Joint Committee on the Publication of Proceedings in Parliament in the last Session of Parliament and not reported to the House be laid before tt e House.—[Mr. McBride.]

  GAMING CLUBS (LICENSING)
  10.18 p.m.
  Mr. Mark Woodnutt: I beg to move,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Gaming Clubs (Licensing) Regulations 1969 (SI, 1969, No. 1110), dated 31st July 1969, a copy of which was laid before this House on 11th August, in the last Session of Parliament, be annulled.
  Mr. Speaker: There are two Motions, one relating to England and the other to Scotland—
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Gaming Clubs (Licensing) (Scotland) Regulations 1969 (S.I., 1969, No. 1115), dated 31st July 1969, a copy
  1250
  of which was laid before this House on 11th August, in the last Session of Parliament be annulled.
  —and it has occurred to me that we might take both of them together if there is no objection from either side of the House. I must point out to the House that we have now one hour and 11 minutes and that some 20 hon. Members wish to speak in the debate.
  Mr. Woodnutt: This Motion has been signed by 73 Members other than myself. Its importance may be seen in the fact that it has been signed by my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Opposition Front Bench and from the number of hon. Members who, you have told us, Mr. Speaker, have put in their names as wishing to speak.
  We who support the Motion do not wish the House to be under the impression that we are a gaming Lobby; we are not. Many of my hon. Friends would be happy to see gaming abolished altogether, but if it is to be legal in this country, there must be equal opportunity for all to participate. We believe in putting into practice a slogan with which hon. Members below the Gangway opposite who are now making so much noise will not be unfamiliar—"Fair" shares for all.
  The main reason for annulling the Regulations are set out in the early day Motion No. 7. This has been signed by hon. Members on both sides of the House and from all parties in:he House. First, we deplore the discrimination exercised in the Regulations For example, why, if gambling is to be allowed at all should it be restricted to 31 closely defined areas in England, two in Wales and only three in Scotland? It is quite wrong that gaming should be permitted in one part of the country and not in others. For instance, why should it be permitted in Brighton and Hove, two adjacent seaside towns, but not in Eastbourne or Hastings; why in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, but not Sunderland?
  Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine: Or Bexhill?
  Mr. Woodnutt: Why should it be permitted in Portsmouth and Southampton, but not in Worthing or the Isle of Wight? We in the Isle of Wight suffer more than oveners, because people on the mainland can get into a car and go to another area,

  1251
  however far away it may be, and can return at night, but, as the last ferry to the Isle of Wight leaves at ten to nine on a Saturday evening, we can go to these casinos only if we care to swim five miles across the Solent.
  Secondly, we deplore this discrimination which gives an unreasonable competitive advantage to holiday resorts in the permitted areas. Does the Home Secretary believe that he is behaving fairly in giving Southend a competitive advantage over Herne Bay or Great Yarmouth an advantage over Shanklin?
  Most reasonable people would agree that gaming should be restricted, and it was the intention of the 1968 Act that it should be. But it was not the intention of that Act to restrict it in this arbitrary manner, and it is certainly not within the spirit of the Act or the spirit of the discussions which occurred in the Standing Committee which considered that legislation.
  I leave the House with the thought that these Regulations may be ultra vires. I can find nothing in the Act which authorises the Gaming Board to put forward Regulations of this type. I am inclined to believe that they have been presented by the Board for administrative expediency and no other reason. In that connection, I should like to be told how many inspectors or enforcement officers are employed by the Board.
  Our third point in the Early Day Motion is the manner in which these regulations have been presented. They were laid before Parliament on 1 1 th August and were to be operative on 1st October. The House was in Recess on both these dates and in between, and there was no opportunity until now, three months later, to express our objections. I feel strongly that this is an affront and a discourtesy to this House. Perhaps even more important are the large losses of capital expenditure caused to so many people.
  It must have been a great shock to hundreds of businessmen and employers, with no offence even suggested against them, to read on 24th July that they were out of business, especially when, with no reason to doubt that they would be granted certificates of consent, they had spent thousands of pounds, now
  1252
  abortively, on developing their premises. I am told by the Gaming Association that the figure of wasted capital expenditure is assessed at no less than £1 million.
  Why did the Gaming Board not announce its intentions earlier? It is shameful that it should wait all this time without telling people what it was about to do, permitting them to go ahead developing their properties and providing all the modifications which they thought would be necessary under the Regulations.
  Mr. Russell Kerr: They brought it on themselves.
  Mr. Woodnutt: No doubt the hon. Gentleman will say that the employees brought it on themselves as well?
  Mr. Kerr: I was pointing out to the hon. Gentleman that the gentlemen for whom he is such an eloquent spokesman have made such a welter of the concessions granted to them that they have brought it on themselves.
  Mr. Woodnutt: That may be the hon. Gentleman's opinion, but it is not what I am saying. I am saying that they were misled. Whether or not they brought it on themselves, it is fact that they were given 28th February as the last date on which they could make an application for a casino licence. They were kept waiting all this time and had no knowledge until 24th July, five months later, after they had submitted their applications. Meanwhile they were wasting their money. How on earth can anyone say they brought it upon themselves? It is only when hon. Gentlemen opposite speak through malice and spite that they think like that.
  There are many other arguments and detailed examples to justify what I have said. I will, however, cut my speech as there are so many other hon. Members wishing to speak. The Home Secretary should scrap these thoroughly bad Regulations and at least existing operators who are people of good character and abiding by the Regulations should be granted licences to continue, whether or not they are in a restricted area, and the limitation should not be by the exclusion of specified areas. The Home Secretary is a fair minded and reasonable person. I hope that he will justify this opinion by accepting our plea.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The House will see how many Members want to speak. Hon. Members should speak briefly.
  10.28 p.m.
  Mr. Gordon A. T. Bagier: I, too, would hope to speak briefly and also seriously on this. I hope that the House will take a very serious view of what is placed before it this evening. I can appreciate that the hon. Member for the Isle of Wight (Mr. Woodnutt) has argued most of his case on geographical locations—where these gaming establishments may be.
  The House should not castigate the Gaming Board, but should appreciate the enormity of the problem facing the Board in trying to control what has become a large growth industry.
  If a proposal had been put forward 10 or 12 years ago to establish gaming in 31 places in this country, it would have been opposed by the House, but, because of the accident of the 1960 Act and its interpretation by the courts, there is now fairly widespread gambling in this country. Three or four years ago some hon. Members noticed what was happening. The then Home Secretary saw fit to ban 13 American citizens who were involved with gaming and were assocrated with the American Cosanostra, and this demonstrates the seriousness of the situation which we are faced with trying to control. On the north-east coast, for example, a type of establishment was built up which provided cabaret, gaming and so on on a smaller scale than in the Metropolis. There was no party difference on this, and we tried to bring some sense into the situation, to clear out the undesirable aspects and the undesirable individuals who were involved in gaming.
  I know that the Statutory Instrument is laid before the House after consultation with the Gaming Board of Great Britain, with whom I have a lot of sympathy. The Board did not receive the power which the Committee which considered the Bill thought it was being given. The Committee believed that the Board was being given power to sit in judgment on persons organising gaming, and would be able to judge whether those individuals should be allowed to do so. But the Gaming Board is faced with the courts, and there are individuals who are involved in gaming
  1254
  who should not be in the business. If persons with only a "soft" record and not a "hard" record are denied a licence, they may say that their individual integrity is being attacked and they have no recourse to the courts.
  This is where I appreciate the problem of the Gaming Board. The advice tendered to my right hon. Friend has been concerned not with dealing with individuals and refusing to grant licences, but with selecting places to which licences will be given, and with selecting the individuals themselves.
  Mr. James A. Dunn (Liverpool, Kirk-dale): The Committee did not disallow all the things my hon. Friend has said, but neither did it say that there should be geographical discrimination. Although I appreciate that there may be some difficulties for the Gaming Board, would it not be better to judge the matter on standards rather than on anything else?
  Mr. Bagier: I am trying to illustrate the difficulties which face the Gaming Board. I have received 1,700 signatures from a night club in my constituency in Sunderland from people who ask." Why cannot we have the licence they have in Newcastle?" Perhaps one can appreciate their point of view.
  Mr. David Weitzman: Has my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Bagier) considered that there is specific provision in paragraph 18 of Schedule 2 of the Gaming Act? That paragraph says:
  "The licensing authority may refuse to grant a licence … if it is not shown to their satisfaction that, in the area of the authority, a substantial demand already exists on the part of prospective players for gaming facilities of the kind proposed to be provided on the relevant premises."
  It was intended in the Committee that the licensing authority should deal with the question of demand. There was never any question that the. Gaming Board would deal with the question of demand.
  Mr. Bagier: I appreciate that this was the intention of the Committee. But I suspect that, although tie Gaming Board may not wish to grant a licence to an individual, for reasons best known to itself, but not in the form of evidence that would stand up in court, its hands are tied because a court may say that it

  1255
  is denigrating the character of the person concerned.
  Having outlined the thinking behind this matter, I ask whether it will solve the problem. I do not think it will. I fail to see the relevance of the argument that the geographical situation in regard to gaming will solve the problem. My right hon. Friend may have to look at the matter in a separate way as regards the situation in various parts of the country. The situation in metropolitan London is vastly different from that in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, as the situation in Birmingham is different from that in Carlisle. There are some small mining villages that enjoy a flutter.
  I am not anti-gaming, but the situation facing the House in trying to find a solution has become so bad and is so infiltrated by sources which have undermined the whole structure of life in certain parts of the western civilised world that the House is bound to look at the matter in a sensible manner.
  Hon. Members may well argue their constituency points. The hon. Member for the Isle of Wight asked, "Why not the Isle of Wight when provision is made for facilities in Portsmouth?" I could well ask, "Why not Sunderland, when there is provision in Newcastle?" In some ways I accept the hon. Member's argument.
  The formula put by the Gaming Board to my right hon. Friend is one answer, but I do not accept that it is the right one. My underlying fear is that if the House makes gaming so restrictive and so difficult to participate in, it will go underground. There is now a known register of individual members of hundreds of clubs throughout the country who are known to like gaming and are approachable and able to be contacted. If we become so restrictive and, to pursue the logic further, if those gaming establishments which are allowed have to bear the brunt of increasing taxation, since each successive Chancellor tends to regard gaming as a profitable source of revenue, it is likely to go underground. If that happens, we shall have a situation similar to that which has frightened the life out of our American cousins.
  My object in intervening is to say that this is an extremely serious and difficult
  1256
  situation which will not be solved on the basis of parliamentary or constituency considerations of where a gaming establishment should or should not be permitted. I hope that hon. Members who have given deep thought to the problem will try in a constructive manner to put forward more logical arguments than that of the Gaming Board. This is not the best answer, and I hope that in the course of the debate we shall hear some better suggestions.
  10.41 p.m.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: I wish to declare a disinterest. I have never entered a casino, and I may well never do so. As a matter of pure prejudice, I have a certain distaste for gaming. Nevertheless, I have an interest which I share with every citizen. It is that the regulation-making powers of Ministers—delegated legislation—should be exercised properly, that the powers which Acts of Parliament confer upon Ministers should not be abused. I believe that the Regulations now before us are a signal example of abuse and should be rejected on that ground.
  The words of the Act under which the Regulations are made give the Secretary of State power to provide that licensing authorities shall refuse to grant or renew licences under the Act
  "… in such circumstances as may be prescribed by the regulations …"
  In form, those words are about as wide as can be imagined. I understand that those who may be affected by the Regulations, on taking legal advice, have been told that the Regulations are intra vires. One cannot be sure of that until the matter has been tested by a court, and nothing which is said in this House can affect that issue one way or the other. But it is certain that the use which has been made of that Section was not envisaged, so far as can be ascertained, by any hon. Member who took part in the debates on the Bill and was in no way foreshadowed. In fact, the opposite is the case.
  In all the proceedings on the Bill, there is only one reference to the sort of use which it was anticipated that the Government might make use of the power. It was made by the then Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, who said in Committee:
  "If we expand to some extent the kind of thing which the justices may do under Schedule

  1257
  2, then it is clear that that is the kind of thing on which the regulations under Clause 21(3Xa) can bite." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee B, 21st March, 1968; c. 327.]
  In Schedule 2, we find exactly the kind of ground on which every hon. Member who participated in the debates imagined that not only would licensing authorities act as they are directed by the Schedule, but general limitations would be placed upon them by the Regulations to be made by the Secretary of State.
  I do not impugn the sincerity of the hon. and learned Gentleman whose words I am citing. He could not have envisaged these Regulations when he used those words to the Committee. Nothing could have been further from his mind, if that was the sort of illustration which he gave of the use which was intended to be made of the regulation-making power.
  I recognise that both on Second Reading and on Third Reading the Secretary of State said that these Regulations were to be one of
  "the principal instruments … to reduce the number of casinos".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th February, 1968; Vol. 758, c. 1174.]
  But it does not follow that he would use his powers in this sort of manner, because any limitations, on whatever grounds they were imposed, and with a view to whatever circumstances, would reduce the number of casinos; and if those limitations were strict, then the reduction would be correspondingly greater. I repeat, there was nothing from beginning to end of the proceedings in either House upon this Bill which gave anyone reason to suppose that "circumstances" would be interpreted by the Secretary of State to mean not being within 36 defined areas in Great Britain.
  I hope that the Under-Secretary will not use the argument, but I suppose it could be said by the Secretary of State: "What is the House complaining about? The Regulations come before the House. If the House does not like the Regulations, then it can throw them out." To say that is to deny the whole procedure of Parliament in both Houses.
  Suppose that in the course of proceedings on the Bill an indication had been given that this was the way that the regulation-making power would be used. Does any hon. Member imagine that that would not have given rise to long debate or that there would not have been Amend-
  1258
  ments put down, debated, and voted upon both in Committee and on Report, and perhaps in another place? It is for this purpose that we have our procedures in this House. They are obliterated if the Secretary of State, a year after, can come back and say: "I am advised that the words are wide enough to allow me to do virtually anything that I like. Therefore, although no one in the course of debating the Bill imagined that this kind of use would be made of it, I am going to make these Regulations and I will put them before the House on a take-it-or-leave-it basis."
  It may or may not be that there is a good case—I doubt whether there is, after listening to the first two speeches—for using this kind of limitation to restrict gaming in this country. If there is, there is only one way in which it should be done. It should be done by Act of Parliament so that it can be properly considered and debated. To attempt to do it in this way is an abuse which the House as a whole ought to reject.
  10.48 p.m.
  Mr. R. T. Paget: I was one of those who opposed the Butler Act, which had the consent of both parties. I did so because I foresaw the evils which would result from it The Butler Act was aimed at illegal gaming —street bookmakers, parties, and that kind of thing. The remedy that it proposed opened the floodgates of gambling and the far greater evils that came with it. It was to correct that that the 1968 Act was brought in.
  Frankly, it reminds me of a neighbour of mine in the last century, Jack Mytton, who sought to cure his hiccups by setting light to his nightshirt. It is said that the hiccups were cured, but the burns were considerable. It seems that the 1968 Act restores the hiccups without putting out the fire. It does so because the Government ignored the advice tendered from all sides of the Committee by hon. Members who knew anything about gambling. They have, therefore, landed themselves with an unworkable Act, and, in consequence, the Gaming Board has produced Regulations which, as the right hon. Gentleman said, were completely out of the contemplation of anything that anyone on that Committee was thinking about.

  1259
  Having said that generally, I shall deal with one particular item, which is something that has grown up in consequence of this Act, and that is the carbaret club, with dining, entertainment, and gambling on a relatively small scale. This kind of club is the gambling opportunity of the areas outside the 31. If it is banned now, that gambling will merely be sent underground. It is not possible to turn the clock back. Since the Act came into force, a habit has been formed. There are lists of people who are known to want to gamble, and if all gambling is banned in the area—Northampton if one likes, or any other city—all that happens is that the illegalities that occurred before the Butler Act are restored, and they are restored in a much worse form because a habit has been formed.
  I believe that there is a way of dealing with this. In France, where they have far more experience of this than we have, gambling is either nationalised or municipalised, and I believe that that is a very good thing. The casino is run for visitors. That is where the gambling is high. That is where the odds are right for the gambler; they are half in zero, one in 72 in favour of the bank. That is to attract the real gambler.
  No local inhabitant is allowed into the casino. He can go there for the cabaret and to dine, and outside the gambling rooms he can play boule. Boule is roughly roulette with four zeros. It is a game in which the odds are rigged against the punter. That is the way to keep the game small, because nobody goes on betting high. The inhabitants of Cannes or Deauville are allowed to play boule. They will not gamble very high at that. They are not allowed into the casino, because there the odds are sufficiently attractive to induce the real gambler to play.
  I therefore urge that there should be a new level of club to provide a legality that can absorb the relatively small gambler who wants a game for entertainment, rather than a big game, by allowing in these carbaret clubs roulette with a minimum of four zeros. If that is done, I think that the cabaret clubs will be kept going. I think that that would substantially stop the illegal gaming, because we shall then have on our
  1260
  side all the cabaret clubs which want to stop illegal competition, instead of having all the community against us.
  That is a workable idea, and I think that it can be done within the Act. Paragraph 25(1)(b) of the Second Schedule to the Act refers to
  "restrictions limiting the gaming to a particular kind of game or particular kinds of game."
  If that can be confined to boule, if we were to follow the example of France and have roulette with four zeros we would provide an outlet. We would mitigate the damage which the Act has undoubtedly done, and I think that we would have something workable. The present situation is simply an illustration that the Gaming Board has found the Act as presented to it, and its job as contemplated by the Government, unworkable, and these Regulations show that.
  10.55 p.m.
  Mr. Ian MacArthur: The Scottish Regulations restrict gaming to three places only in Scotland—Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen. This is an entirely new restriction and it is arbitrary, illogical and unjust. If the Government wish to ban gaming altogether, let them bring a proposal to the House and we can discuss the proposal on its merits. If they wish to restrict the number of clubs, let them propose stiffening the licensing conditions, and we can discuss that proposal on its merits. But there is no merit at all in this arbitrary geographical limitation, which will force clubs in many parts of Scotland to close while encouraging gaming in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen.
  What is the logic of selecting these three cities for this favoured treatment? Is it because of their size? But size is not a guarantee that gaming will be better run there than elsewhere. Indeed, one could argue the reverse. Is it because they have large populations? If so, why should these large populations be treated more favourably than the smaller places? If so, why is Aberdeen included, while Dundee, with a population as large or larger, is deliberately excluded?
  May I mention just six of the many places in Scotland which now have

  1261
  gaming clubs, but which are excluded from the Schedule? They are Perth, Dunblane, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose and Peterhead, and there are many others. The local members of these gaming clubs will have to travel between 3:2 and 55 miles if they wish to continue gaming. It is unlikely that they will do so. I ask the Government how they can justify denying to these people the freedom to enjoy a pastime which they pursue legally? What logic can justify that sort of interference? Is it not likely to bring an unjust law into contempt and drive gaming underground?
  What logical argument can the Government advance for including Ramsgate in England with a population of under 39,000, while excluding Perth in Scotland with a population of over 41,000? I know that Ramsgate is an important holiday place, but so is Perth. Why has not the Secretary of State acted to protect the interests of tourism in Scotland? Indeed, what has the Secretary of State been doing throughout this sorry affair, beyond mutely accepting a blind 10 per cent. formula in Scotland, touching his forelock to the Home Secretary and naming three Scottish places to match the 31 in England?
  Is the Secretary of State aware of the many inquiries received by the Perth Tourist Association about gaming facilities in Perth? Is he aware that Perthshire and Kinross is the second largest tourist area in Scotland? The Scottish Tourist Board figures show that it exceeds the tourist record of Edinburgh and far outstrips the records of Aberdeenshire and Glasgow combined. Yet he proposes to prohibit gaming in Perth and Dunblane, the two Perthshire clubs, while blessing Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Glasgow. There is certainly no logic in this.
  The proposal is also unjust. The clubs in Perth and Dunblane are admirably run and the police speak well of them. I know from my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne) that the club in Arbroath is also well regarded by the police. No doubt the other clubs which I mentioned are also well run. When the Minister replies, will he tell us if there have been any complaints at all against these clubs? I have been round the Perth club, and I know that it is
  1262
  admirably conducted. The gambling is modest. The standard roulette stake is 2s. on a straight number. The refreshments served are coffee at a shilling, tea, sandwiches, lemonade and milk. I am told that this respectable club has not been openly visited by any official of the Gaming Board; yet it is to be suppressed.
  The proposal is unjust also to those who operate these clubs. In Arbroath and Dundee, for example, there was a very large capital investment this year to separate bingo from the other forms of gaming, to comply with what was thought to be the Minister's wish. But within a few months the legal and properly conducted clubs in these places are to be closed down, and for no comprehensible reason. I trust that the Government will withdraw the Regulations and scrap this absurd restriction.
  11.0 p.m.
  Mr. David Weitzman: I approve the laudable desire of the Government to limit the number of gaming establishments, but it is clearly wrong to confine gaming to certain areas as set out in the Statutory Instrument. So far as I remember, there was never any suggestion in the Committee, of which I was a member, that there would be an arbitrary list and a monopoly, irrespective of the demand from or the circumstances in other areas.
  In an intervention I referred to paragraph 18 of Schedule 2 of the Gaming Act, 1968, and I should like to refer to it again because it seems to me to be a very strong point. In paragraph 18, which is headed
  "Grounds for refusal to grant or renew licence",
  licensing authorities are told that they may refuse to grant a licence
  "if it is not shown to their satisfaction that, in the area of the authority, a substantial demand already exists …"
  It then goes on to say in sub-paragraph (2):
  "Where it is shown to the satisfaction of the licensing authority that such a demand already exists, the licensing authority may refuse to grant a licence …"
  in certain circumstances.
  In this Measure it was clearly contemplated that the question of the demand in an area was one to be dealt with not

  1263
  by the Gaming Board but by the Licensing authority. I remember in Committee opposing the suggestion that the initial consent should be given by the Gaming Board. I did so because if the matter was in the hands of the Gaming Board it would be dealt with in secret and the applicant would never have an opportunity of contradicting or challenging the decision, whereas if the licensing authority dealt with the matter everything would be done in open court. I believe the conduct of the Gaming Board proves how right I was.
  I am told that not only are the inquiries of the board carried out in secret but that it frequently acts discourteously to applicants. As one applicant told me, applicants who appear before the Gaming Board are treated as dirt; they are not allowed to talk or put their cases and they are treated officiously.
  I have some knowledge of applications made to the Gaming Board. The applicant may have a conviction against him. It may be a technical conviction, and in a case that I have in mind it involved two police officers who, passing themselves off as members, entered a bingo club where no other game was being played. A nominal fine of £5 was imposed on the applicant. The Gaming Board takes the view that when that sort of thing happens the person is unfit to hold a licence. The person to whom I refer has built up five bingo clubs and depends upon them for his livelihood. He may now be deprived of that livelihood although he may be fit in all respects to carry out the provisions laid down in the Regulations.
  I hope that the Joint Under-Secretary will have this matter inquired into.
  11.4 p.m.
  Mr. Mark Carlisle: Everybody who has spoken in this debate has opposed the Regulations, and it has been made clear that we on this side of the House are opposed to the Regulations—
  Mr. Arthur Blenkinsop rose—
  Mr. Carlisle: With respect, 1 cannot give way. I have promised to resume my seat at 11.15; I am limiting my speech to 10 minutes.
  1264
  These Regulations limit the power to apply for a gaming licence, and they define geographical areas; they also prevent gaming clubs being used for purposes of live entertainment where gaming takes place. Like hon. Members generally, I wish to limit my remarks to that part of the Regulations which limits the provision of gaming by geographical areas. I remind the House that the purpose of the Gaming Act passed last year was to permit, but at the same time to control and limit, commercial gaming in Britain. The means of control were clearly laid down, and they were twofold.
  The first form of control was to be by the Gaming Board, from which a certificate cf consent had to be obtained before an application for a licence to the licensing justices could be made. The only matter with which the Gaming Board was to be concerned was the suitability of the applicant from the point of view of his character, reputation and financial stability.
  The second form of control, as the hon. and learned Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) pointed out, was to be by the licensing justices, who, with their knowledge of their localities, were to decide whether or not a licence should be granted to any particular premises in any particular locality. I emphasise that the Act clearly laid down in Section 18(1), that
  "The licensing authority may refuse to grant a licence … if it is not shown to their satisfaction that, in the area of the authority, a substantial demand already exists on the part of prospecive players for gaming facilities of the kind proposed to be provided on the relevant premises."
  It had to be satisfied that it was a demand which was satisfied neither by gaming facilities within the area concerned nor by those in an area reasonably accessible, and that was to be a decision for the local licensing justices.
  What is more, it gave power not only to the Gaming Board to make representations to the justices on whether such an unmet demand existed, but specifically gave the Gaming Board the right to appeal against the grant of a licence to an applicant. Local residents were clearly entitled to object. That was the position, and that was the framework within which

  1265
  gaming was to be controlled, as laid down by this House.
  The Home Secretary has chosen to use his Regulation-making powers under Section 22 of the 1968 Act in a way that was never envisaged when the Measure was passed. He has decided to make Regulations to prevent any application from being made in any but very limited geographical areas.
  I repeat what was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell) and the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), who was an eminent member of the Committee which examined the 1968 Measure; that is, that the use of Regulations in this way was never suggested at any time during the Committee stage of the Act. It was never suggested that the Home Secretary would say that the provisions of the Act would apply in one area yet not in another. No warning whatever was given at any time of the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to use the Regulations in this way. It was always envisaged that the question whether or not a gaming club should be allowed to obtain a licence would be a matter for the licensing justices to decide.
  The Regulations will have the effect of saying that after the date up to which applications for certificates for consent may be made, the Home Secretary has decided to lay down arbitrarily certain areas where in certain circumstances gaming shall not be permitted. What justification does the right hon. Gentleman have for this decision? The Under-Secretary wrote a letter to my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke) in which he said that the opportunity to apply for a gaming licence was a "privilege to be conceded".
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Elystan Morgan)indicated assent.
  Mr. Carlisle: Is the Under-Secretary really suggesting that obtaining a gaming licence is a privilege?
  Mr. Elystan Morgan indicated assent.
  Mr. Carlisle: I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman should indicate assent at that.
  Various words may be used to describe gaming.
  Mr. Blenkinsop rose—
  Mr. Carlisle: I wish to be brief. I will not give way.
  Whether gaming is attractive, desirable or boring is a matter for individual decision. What was clearly decided by that Act was that it was a lawful but a controlled pastime.
  I am amazed to hear the word "privilege", which implies an honour being conferred upon somebody, being used in these circumstances. The effect of these Regulations made by the Home Secretary is to attempt to make gaming lawful in some areas whilst unlawful in others. Presumably, it limits gaming to 31 areas in England, to two areas in Wales, and to three areas in Scotland. We have not been told how those areas were arrived at.
  I shall not give a long list of examples of the areas. The Under-Secretary, as myself. must have had many letters on this subject. I would merely say that any consideration of the areas which have been arrived at shows how ludicrous the Regulations are. We are told that seaside resorts are in, but Scarborough is out. To give an example from my own part of the country, Blackpool and Lytham St. Annes next door are permitted. Southport, where the local authority has passed a resolution, as the Under-Secretary knows, deploring its removal from the area where it is conceded a demand exists, is out. The examples are numerous. All that they show is that it is wholly indefensible to attempt to limit areas in which gaming can take place in this arbitrary way.
  Many clubs have applied. As my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Woodnutt) said, they have provided their premises on the basis that, if they could satisfy the Gaming Board that they were perfectly respectable, well-run clubs, they would get a certificate of consent and they were then prepared to take the risk of arguing their entitlement to a licence before local justices. However, without any warning whatsoever, the Home Secretary brought in Regulations which are used to prevent them from making applications.
  The purpose of the Regulations, we shall be told, is to limit the number of gaming clubs. I accept that. I agree

  1267
  with the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Bagier), who was another member of the Committee, that it is an enormous problem. There is no dispute about that. The dispute is about the way in which these Regulations attempt to achieve that end.
  The Bill which the House debated last year has already proved to have imposed a considerable limitation on the number of people applying. We were told when the Bill went through the House, that there were between 2,000 and 3,000 gaming clubs in Britain. Yet only 702 applications were ever made for certificates of consent. So, before the sieve of the certificate of consent and the sieve of the local justices had been applied, we had already reduced the number to 702.
  I have been told by the Under-Secretary that, in regard to the 31 areas permitted in England, only 295 of the 702 are within the areas which are now open to consideration. If the purpose of the Bill was, as I believe it was, to avoid the involvement of criminals in gaming it is much more likely to attract the criminal element into gaming by limiting gaming to these few centres and by driving gaming underground elsewhere in Britain, as it surely will. The hon. Member for Sunderland, South and the hon. and learned Member for Northampton pointed that out.
  The limitations of a geographical nature means almost inevitably, because of the numbers who are left even to apply for certificates of consent, that some clubs within the areas will be approved merely because they are within the geographical areas whilst other far more suitable clubs, far more respectable clubs, and very well run clubs will be excluded, for the simple reason that they are outside the geographical areas.
  Once the House accepted, as it did, that gaming, whilst controlled and limited, was to be lawful, we believe that the Government should not have treated gaming in a way in which they would not have dared to treat any other lawful activity. We believe that the Regulations are arbitrary, unjust and unfair. For those reasons, unless the Joint Under-Secretary of State tells us tonight that he proposes to withdraw them and introduce new Regulations which do not rely
  1268
  on a form of geographical basis we shall vote against them.
  Dr. M. P. Winstanley: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Since we have been told that the Joint Under-Secretary of State requires the last 15 minutes it is apparent that I shall not be called. Therefore, I shall not have an opportunity to explain how it is that my name appears on the Order Paper along with those other hon. Members for whom I have respect and affection, but with whose views I am not often in accord. Since the continued presence of my name on the Order Paper could lead to misunderstanding about my position and that of my party, may I beg leave to withdraw my name?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harry Gourlay): That is not possible at this stage.
  11.15 p.m.
  The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Elystan Morgan): The issue before us is how best to implement the will of the House as expressed in passing the Gaming Act of 1968.
  The hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Woodnutt) said that the making of the Regulations was an affront to the dignity of the House. I welcome the opportunity to debate them, because it enables me to dispose of the criticism that they came into operation before Parliament had a chance to debate them.
  The fact is, as all operators of gaming clubs will be well aware, that there is nothing in the Regulations which can begin to affect the way in which any club is at present operating until 1st July, 1970, when the substantive provisions of the Act come into operation.
  Mr. Woodnutt rose—
  Mr. Morgan: I shall not give way.
  The Regulations fall into two parts: the administrative provisions—procedural matters, forms of application and so on—for licensing clubs, and a number of matters of substance. The Regulations operate from 1st October only for the purpose of the administrative provisions, and there have been no representations about these.
  The provision which has attracted most comment has been the limitation of

  1269
  general gaming to scheduled areas. The broad principle of limiting the total volume of gaming is generally accepted by the vast majority of hon. Members, I believe, but the method of control has been criticised on a number of grounds. The main criticisms both in the House and outside are that this method conflicts with the intentions of the Act, and that it is wrong in principle to discriminate in this way. I do not accept that these criticisms are well founded. No one would disagree that the object of the Act was to control gaming. I am sure that Members who clearly showed their approbation of such a principle when the Act was before the House would not now wish to renege.
  One of the main features of the new system of control created by the Act is the establishment of the Gaming Board, with its role not only of vetting all applicants for licences but of offering expert advice to the Home Secretary about gaming. To enable it to discharge this role, the Act requires the Home Secretary to consult the board before exercising any of the wide powers conferred on him to make Regulations. Hon. Members will find them in Section 51(3) of the Act.
  A great many matters were left to be dealt with by Regulations, precisely for the reason that neither the Government nor Parliament then had sufficient detailed knowledge of gaming and its problems to be able to work out in detail some aspects of the control which would be needed. It was the deliberate intention to leave these matters until the Gaming Board had been able to give the Home Secretary expert advice and it is the advice of the Board that my right hon. Friend is now implementing in these Regulations.
  It is clear that it was the intention of the Act that the board should advise on a matter such as this, perhaps indeed of Parliament itself. Perhaps here I might recall what was said by the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg):
  "This, above all, is a matter in which a priori thinking ought to be avoided and experience ought to be our guide as to what we do in the future, which is precisely why we on this side of the House are anxious to give the Board the maximum degree of power, and rejoice that the Home Secretary has, to some extent at any rate, yielded to our persuasion, because he has said that he proposes to take
  1270
  that advice of the Board. While I recognise that the legal responsibility must, under the framework of the Bill, remain with him, I hope that he will take the Board's advice and not simply receive it."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th June, 1968; Vol. 766, c. 98.]
  The criticism of my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Bagier) was that confining gaming to particular areas conflicts-with Parliament's intention, but I maintain that his view cannot be supported.
  The same argument was put forward by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell). I think that in his speech there was the usual hidden conflict of logic in his argument. He said, on the one hand, that, of course, the question of vires would have to be decided by the courts looking objectively at the words of the Act and not at what was said in the House of Commons or in another place. He went on to examine the stare of mind of a Home Office Minister looking at these recommendations at the time the Act was going through Parliament. In other words, the objective approach had all the sanctity in one context but the subjective approach was the one he applied on the other hand. This is yet another example of the right lion. Gentleman's contorted logic.
  It is proper that the House, in looking at the powers given under Section 22, under which these Regulations are made, should read them side by side with the powers given in Section 51, subsection (3) of which reads:
  "Any power to make regulations under this Act may be exercised so as to make different provision for different areas, or in relation to different cases or different circumstances to which the power is applicable."
  The argument has been advanced that the Act conferred on the board the role of vetting the character and standing of the applicants for licenses and on the licensing justices the role of determining whether premises might be licensed in their area, and that to impose a further restriction goes far beyond what Parliament intended. This criticism overlooks the fact that the object of the Act was to make it possible not only to make gaming free from abuse—and this is an object with which the whole gaming industry will agree—but also to ensure that it was possible to limit the total volume of gaming in this country.

  1271
  It is right to bear in mind the prolific increase which had occurred in this country since the 1960 Act. When the 1968 Act was passed, we had no fewer than 1,200 gaming licences compared with 150 casino licences in France and 50 gaming clubs. The House made it clear during the passage of the Act that it regarded the level of gaming which existed at that time as wholly unacceptable and that it intended to exercise the powers conferred on it by the Regulations to reduce it drastically. The role of the board and the licensing justices will serve to guarantee the respectability of the clubs which operate under the new system.
  But once the industry has been purged of the undesirable elements which have given it a bad reputation, I would expect it to afford an opening to new proprietors who had previously been reluctant to become involved. When this development occurs, it might well be that the Gaming Board and the licensing justices would have some difficulty in refusing applications of this kind, with the result that clubs of guaranteed propriety would start to grow in numbers in parts of the country where one would not normally expect to find casinos.
  It is, therefore, vitally necessary to introduce a restriction at a national level to supplement the system laid down in the Act. This is the objective which the Gaming Board had in mind in making its recommendations. In the board's view, it is right that casinos for general gaming should be confined mainly to entertainment areas, cities and resorts. These are not only the proper locations for casinos, but are also the areas where they will be able to satisfy the greatest demand. If casinos could also be licensed in areas of small population, the demand which such casinos would be able to satisfy would be much smaller.
  Therefore, the only logical and justifiable way of ensuring that the total volume of gaming should be contained at a reasonable level and, at the same time, that facilities should be available to satisfy existing demand is to impose a limitation on the areas where clubs for general gaming may be licensed. This is the principle which the board has recommended.
  1272
  I should make it clear that this list of 31 areas which appears in the regulations should not be regarded as being in any way immutable. I have listened carefully to what has been said in the House tonight. We have carefully studied the representations which have already been made to the Home Office. We are aware that a number of certificates of consent still remain to be granted. It is necessary that the Gaming Board should consider the whole situation in the light of what has been said in this debate and the representations which have been and are yet to be made.
  The guide lines adopted by the board in this situation in deciding the locality of the areas named in the regulations are such as to include the density of the population, the character of an area, the propensity of that area for the attraction of tourists and the availability of good communications between that urban area and the hinterland which it serves.
  In considering whether there should or should not be an addition to this list, it will be necessary for the board to consider responsible local opinion and how much that opinion has grown naturally in that locality and how far it may have been synthetically engendered. When the board has advised the Home Secretary on this situation, it will be proper for him to consider whether a short list of towns should be added to the Schedule which we are discussing, if it is his opinion that the list should be added to, appropriate substituting regulations will be brought before the House as soon as possible and before the date of 1st July, 1970, from which this is to apply.
  We deny that this is in any way arbitrary or discriminatory. The standards which are laid down are general for the three countries of Britain. This is entirely in accordance with the explicit wishes of Parliament as expressed—
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Ray Mawby: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In view of the very garbled reply of the Under-Secretary and as it is clear that a number of hon. Members still wish to speak, is it your view that there has been sufficient time to debate this subject?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Mr. Speaker has already ruled that there was sufficient time to discuss the regulations.
  It being half-past Eleven o'clock, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER put the Question, pur-
  suant to Standing Order No. 100 (Statutory Instruments, & c.(Procedure)).
  The House divided: Ayes 145, Noes, 206.

  Division No.9.]

  AYES

  [11.30 p.m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

  Peyton, John

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Harvie Anderson, Miss

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Astor, John

  Hastings, Stephen

  Pounder, Raftan

  Awdry, Daniel

  Hawkins, Paul

  Powell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch

  Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

  Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Prior, J. M. L.

  Balniel, Lord

  Heseltine, Michael

  Pym, Francis

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Hill, J. E. B.

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Biffen, John

  Holland, Philip

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Hordern, Peter

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Blaker, Peter

  Hornby, Richard

  Rossi, Hugh

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)

  Hunt, John

  Royle, Anthony

  Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

  Iremonger, T. L.

  Scott, Nicholas

  Braine, Bernard

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

  Sharples, Richard

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Jopling, Michael

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'h'gh Whitby)

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Silvester, Frederick

  Buchanan-Smith,Alick(Angus,N & M)

  Kimball, Marcus

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Buck, Antony (Colchester)

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Burden, F. A.

  Kitson, Timothy

  Speed, Keith

  Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.)

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Stainton, Keith

  Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

  Lambton, Viscount

  Steel, David (Roxburgh)

  Carlisle, Mark

  Lane, David

  Stoddart-Scott. Col. Sir M.

  Chataway, Christopher

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Tapsell, Peter

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Lawler, Wallace

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Clark, Henry

  Legge-Bourke, Sir Harry

  Taylor,Edward M.(G'gow,Cathcart)

  Cooke, Robert

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Crouch, David

  MacArthur, Ian

  Temple, John M.

  Crawder, F. P.

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Tilney, John

  Currie, G. B. H.

  McNair-Wilson, Patrick (NewForest)

  van Straubenzee, W.R.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Maddan, Martin

  Waddington, David

  Dance, James

  Marten, Neil

  Walker, Peter (Worcester)

  Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

  Mawby, Ray

  Walters, Dennis

  Dodds-Parker, Douglas

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Ward, C. (Swindon)

  Donnelly, Desmond

  Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Eden, Sir John

  Mills, Peter (Torrington)

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Elliott,R.W.(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)

  Monro, Hector

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Eyre, Reginald

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Wiggin, A. W.

  Farr, John

  More, Jasper

  Williams, Donald (Dudley)

  Fisher, Nigel

  Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

  Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Winstanley, Dr. M. P.

  Fortescue, Tim

  Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

  Woodnutt, Mark

  Foster, Sir John

  Murton, Oscar

  Worsley, Marcus

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Nabarro, Sir Gerald

  Wright, Esmond

  Glover, Sir Douglas

  Neave, Airey

  Wylie, N. R.

  Gower, Raymond

  Nott, John

  Grant, Anthony

  Osborn, John (Hallam)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Page, Graham (Crosby)

  Mr. Humphrey Atkins and

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Peel, John

  Mr. Walter Clegg.

  Hamilton, Lord (Fermanagh)

  Percival, Ian

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Boston, Terence

  Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

  Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

  Bradley, Tom

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Alldritt, Walter

  Bray, Dr. Jeremy

  Delargy, Hugh

  Anderson, Donald

  Brooks, Edwin

  Dempsey, James

  Arstrong, Ernest

  Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper)

  Dewar, Donald

  Ashley, Jack

  Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

  Diamond, Rt. Hn, John

  Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw)

  Brown,Bob(N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

  Dobson, Ray

  Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

  Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Doig, Peter

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Buchan, Norman

  Driberg, Tom

  Barnett, Joel

  Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Bence, Cyril

  Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

  Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

  Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

  Carmichael, Neil

  Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

  Bennett, James (G'gow, Bridgeton)

  Coe, Denis

  Eadie, Alex

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Coleman, Donald

  Edelman, Maurice

  Bishop, E. S.

  Concannon, J. D.

  Edwards, William (Merioneth)

  Blackburn, F.

  Conlan, Bernard

  Ennals, David

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

  Boardman, H. (Leigh)

  Dalyell, Tam

  Evans, loan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)

  Booth, Albert

  Davies, Ednyfed Hudson (Conway)

  Faulds, Andrew

  Fernyhough, E.

  Lever, Rt. Hn. Harold (Cheetham)

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Finch, Harold

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Luard, Evan

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

  Fitt, Gerard (Belfast, W.)

  Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

  Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  McElhone, F.

  Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)

  Foley, Maurice

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Probert, Arthur

  Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

  McBride, Neil

  Rees, Merlyn

  Forrester, John

  McCann, John

  Rhodes, Geoffrey

  Galpern, Sir Myer

  MacColl, James

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Gardner, Tony

  McGuire, Michael

  Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy

  Garrett, W. E.

  McKay, Mrs. Margaret

  Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

  Golding, J.

  Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

  Rodgers, William (Stockton)

  Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

  Mackie, John

  Roebuck, Roy

  Greenwood, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Maclennan, Robert

  Rose, Paul

  Gregory, Arnold

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William

  Grey, Charles (Durham)

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Rowlands, E.

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

  Ryan, John

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)

  Sheldon, Robert

  Hannan, William

  Mallalieu,J.P.W.(Huddersfield,E.)

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Harper, Joseph

  Manuel, Archie

  Silkin, Hn. S. C. (Dulwich)

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Mapp, Charles

  Silverman, Julius

  Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

  Marks, Kenneth

  Small, William

  Haseldine, Norman

  Marquand, David

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Hazell, Bert

  Mendelson, John

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Millan, Bruce

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. George

  Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Thomson, Rt. Hn. George

  Hilton, W. S.

  Milne, Edward (Blyth)

  Tinn, James

  Hobden, Dennis

  Molloy, William

  Urwin, T. W.

  Hooley, Frank

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Varley, Eric G.

  Hooson, Emlyn

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

  Horner, John

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)

  Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

  Morris, John (Aberavon)

  Walden, Brian (All Saints)

  Hoy, Rt. Hn. James

  Moyle, Roland

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Wallace, George

  Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

  Murray, Albert

  Ward, C. (Swindon)

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Neal, Harold

  Watkins, David (Consett)

  Hunter, Adam

  Newens, Stan

  Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)

  Hynd, John

  Oakes, Gordon

  Whitaker, Ben

  Jackson, Colin (B'h'se & Spenb'gh)

  Ogden, Eric

  White, Mrs. Eirene

  Janner, Sir Barnett

  O'Halloran, M. J.

  Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  O'Malley, Brian

  Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Oram, Albert E.

  Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Orbach, Maurice

  Willis, Rt. Hn. George

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Orme, Stanley

  Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

  Jones,Rt.Hn.Sir Elwyn(W.Ham,S.)

  Oswald, Thomas

  Winnick, David

  Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)

  Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

  Judd, Frank

  Palmer, Arthur

  Woof, Robert

  Kerr, Mrs. Anne (R'ter & Chatham)

  Park, Trevor

  Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

  Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Latham, A.

  Pavitt, Laurence

  Mr. James Hamilton and

  Lawson, George

  Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

  Mr. Ernest G. Perry

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton)

  SHEEP PRODUCTION
  Motion made and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. McBride.]
  11.40 p.m.
  Mr. John Farr: The purpose of this debate is to probe the Government's intentions towards the national sheep industry. I will briefly run through a few of the facts for the information of the Joint Parliamentary Secretary.
  Since 1966 there has been an accelerated decline in our sheep production. In that year the total sheep population in England, Wales and Scotland in June was nearly 29 million. It has declined since that date in 1966 to 25½ million in June of this year, representing a drop of 3½ million sheep, or 12 per cent.
  1276
  What concerns me and others is that the decline is accelerating because the drop this year was the biggest yet—nearly 1½ million sheep and lambs. Since 1966 in the United Kingdom nearly 20,000 farmers, including myself, have given up keeping sheep, and the number of flocks in the nation has dropped to 113,000, which is the lowest since 1953.
  Another fact to highlight the gravity of the situation is that wool output this year was the lowest for 13 years. It was 9 per cent. down on the previous year, which itself was 6 per cent. down, or a drop of 5 million lbs.
  One of the results of the decline in sheep population and especially of lamb production in this country has been the rise in the price of home-produced lambs and sheep. Today the housewife pays a shilling a pound more for lamb than

  1277
  she was paying this time last year. That is one result of the decline in lamb production of nearly 2 million at home since 1966.
  One interesting fact is that in this period the national consumption of mutton and lamb has remained more or less stable. This has meant a consistent annual increase in the percentage of consumption imported from 55— per cent. in 1966 to nearly 60 per cent. projected for this year. Imports have risen since 1966 by 36,000 tons per annum at a cost to the Exchequer of £6 million per annum.
  Why are farmers giving us sheep production? I will give one or two reasons which I consider to be the most important. The chief reason—and other reasons hinge on this—is the economic one, and the failure of successive Governments between 1956 and 1967 to increase the guaranteed price at all in that time, although in that time the value of the pound fell to 14s. 10d.
  Ministers have from time to time said that in the same period the guaranteed prices of barley and eggs were also static; but the Minister will agree that producers of these commodities could effect, and have effected, far more economies by mass production techniques which are denied to flock masters. It is true that the guaranteed price for mutton and lamb went up by 6 per cent. in 1968 and 1½d. a pound this year. But I fear that it is a question of too little and too late.
  Hanging on the chief, economic reason, there are others which have contributed to the decline in our national sheep numbers. One is the difficulty in replacing skilled shepherds and finding men who are prepared to work 24 hours a day in the lambing season, often in bitter conditions like those of last spring, for a wage which is far below that of the average industrial worker. It means turning out to face the elements at all hours when industrial workers are at home with their feet up watching television.
  It is no use the Government thinking that the Agricultural Training Board will make any difference in this respect. It will not be able to train competent shepherds of the calibre of the men who are leaving the industry and who have only reached their present status as a
  1278
  result of many years of dedicated experience.
  I referred earlier to Question Time on 5th November, when it gave notice to Mr. Speaker that I would seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment. One of the reasons which prompted me to do that was the Government's apparent attitude to the national sheep industry. If it was satisfactory, we would not be here tonight.
  The latest Ministerial statements that we have came in reply to Questions to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on 5th November. On that date, the Minister admitted that the sheep flock had fallen in recent years. He went on to give figures of the fall, which I will not repeat because they are not contested. But he concluded that his objective was to check and offset the decline in production.
  That statement is not good enough, and it is similar to what was said by the Permanent Secretary tc the Ministry in New Zealand a few weeks ago. Has the right hon. Gentleman forgotten the N.E.D.C. Report last year dealing in great detail with the sheep industry? Perhaps I might refresh' his memory by reading what appears in paragraph 183 of Part II on page 74, under the heading "Import saving". It says:
  "It is estimated that the total increase in output would be of the order of 4,500 tons of lamb and 1,000 tons of mutton a year."
  The Minister will remember that that refers to the period from 1968 to 1972–73. The paragraph goes on to say:
  "… the net import saving would be i1.3 million as a result of the group's proposals for an expansion of 300,000 lambs."
  It is quite unsatisfactory for the Government to have merely the objective of restoring our national sheep numbers to what they were when the N.E.D.C. Report was published. The N.E.D.C. laid down clearly that there should be an expansion and that there should be import saving instead of extra imports mounting up.
  One factor to which 1. wish to call the right hon. Gentleman's attention is that if sheep permanently leave our farms in the Midlands, so will the fertility of the soil be reduced.
  I hope that the Minister will accept the gravity of the situation. It may

  1279
  already be too late, but I hope that he will take corrective measures if he wants a home sheep industry immediately.
  11.50 p.m.
  The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. James Hoy): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising this subject, because it gives me this opportunity to talk about sheep production.
  It enables me to state once again the part which we have said sheep can play in the extended selective expansion programme and to remind hon. Members of the incentives we have given in this sector and of our view on the present situation.
  The Government's selective expansion programme to 1972–73 was announced last November. The main emphasis was on the expansion of cereals, beef and pigmeat; and we said that we were not aiming to increase mutton and lamb production. There were good reasons for taking the view that it would be unrealistic to seek to expand production above the level of 1967–68. The selective expansion programme, as the hon. Gentleman knows, whether he agrees or disagrees, is a balanced programme.
  We also had to take into account the fact that demand for mutton and lamb had been falling and that in New Zealand we have a traditional and highly efficient supplier.
  At the same time, we saw, and still see, a strong case for building up production in the hills and uplands where sheep can be one of the most efficient users of grazing, often in association with beef cattle, and where there is considerable scope for increasing productivity and output.
  Having established the general position, and before I go on to discuss the present situation, I would like to make two things quite clear.
  The first is that although we have placed considerable emphasis on expanding hill and upland production nothing in what we have said about our objectives—or the way we have chosen to increase support for sheep production over the last three years—lends any colour to the suggestion that the Govern-
  1280
  ment have in any sense written off lowland sheep.
  Nearly half the breeding ewes in the United Kingdom are kept on the lowlands and a major part of our fat sheep and lambs are finished there, and we believe that sheep have a valuable and profitable part to play in the farming system on many lowland holdings, especially in cereals rotations.
  My second point is concerned with what I can perhaps call the time-table aspect of the expansion programme. The programme covers the period to 1972, and I have said that over that period we were not seeking to expand sheep numbers and mutton and lamb production. But we also recognised, and have made no secret of this, that the first job had in fact to be to check and then offset the decline in the breeding flock that had already begun and which we had to expect would continue in the short term. My right hon. Friend has never hidden that point, and indeed, has made it clear on many occasions. This, we recognised, was a process that would take time.
  Expansion in the hills and uplands must inevitably be a relatively slow business with land improvement and better flock management needing to keep pace with improved stocking.
  In the short term we had to accept that expansion in these areas would not be rapid enough to offset the further decline we expected to see in lowland flocks and that there would be a further reduction in the total breeding flock during this year.
  We made this clear in the Annual Review White Paper last March and subsequently in answer to questions here in this House.
  That brings me to the present position. Last year when we announced the extended selective expansion programme, we had 13,873,000 ewes on our farms at June. This year, there are still 13,315,000. This means that numbers have gone down by 4 per cent. This loss we want to make good; but we recognise it cannot be done quickly.
  It must be said that the fall was larger than we expected. It was accentuated by bad weather in the spring which took its toll of ewes in some areas of the country, and I think that the hon. Gentleman will concede that. This will be reflected in future levels of production. We

  1281
  did in fact consider whether the situation was such as to justify special action and a departure from the general principle that weather risks are borne by the farmers. We concluded that although in some districts individual flock masters had suffered heavy losses it did not.
  We have, however, undertaken that when claims for hill sheep subsidy are made in December we will, in appropriate cases, use the statutory discretion which we have to admit bought-in ewes for subsidy in supplementary rate flocks and waive the requirements about the age composition of these flocks and the number of ewe lambs brought into them. All possible steps will be taken to settle claims quickly.
  We are not complacent about this reduction. At the risk of repeating myself, I want to make clear our view that it is not in the best interests of British agriculture that this decline should continue at its present rate. Our objective remains, as it has been, to do all that is possible to check and offset this decline.
  That gives rise to the pertinent question of what does that mean? What are we intending to do to encourage producers to meet our objective? This is, as I have said, a pertinent question but hon. Members know well that it is one that I cannot answer now. This is a matter for the Annual Review; we shall be looking thoroughly at the sheep sector then, but I cannot anticipate the outcome. What I can say is that we have already done a great deal over the last few years, the full fruits of which have yet to be seen.
  The first essential, before getting more sheep on to the hills, is to improve the grazings. In 1967 we introduced the Hill Land Improvement Scheme, which provides 50 per cent. grants for all the land improvements needed to increase the carrying capacity of the grazings—reclamation, pasture improvement, fencing, hill shelters—and a 10 per cent. supplement on drainage grants, making 60 per cent. in all.
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite, on the other hand, allowed the 50 per cent. grants under the Hill Farming and Livestock Rearing Acts to run out in November 1963. 'That was their record. We put the hill sheep subsidy on a continuing basis and extended its scope and value.
  1282
  We also increased the guaranteed price for mutton and lamb by 5¾d. over the last four years.
  Hon. Gentlemen opposite may say that it was not enough. That is perhaps their view, but an increase of 5d. per lb. in three years or 5¾d. over the past four years compares, to put it mildly, quite well with the changes in the guaranteed price in the five years to 1964, when they were in power, over which period the price was brought down 1½d. from 3s. 3½d. to 3s. 2d.
  So, although the hon. Gentleman may he a little critical of what we have done, in all honesty he must say that our record in this respect compares more than favourably with that of his own party.
  Mr. Farr: If the hon. Gentleman checks the records, he will also find that in this time of Conservative Government flock numbers continued to expand.
  Mr. Hoy: I have not checked the figures completely, but it seems a little peculiar to me, as it must do to the hon. Gentleman, that cutting off these grants and reducing the price to the farmer, had that effect. Our action compares more than favourably with anything done by right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and he cannot deny that. But, I say this in no spirit of complacency.
  As I have already said, we will be looking at the needs of the industry again at the Annual Review, and I am simply pointing out that we have done a great deal to improve profitability in this sector, to a degree perhaps that has not fully been appreciated.
  The Farmers Weekly of 7th November, for example, carries what it refers to as the success stories of a number of flocks in different situations and suggests—remember these are not my words—that, after reading them, its readers may agree that there is little economic reason for the present slide.
  We have rendered considerable aid to this industry. I have described clearly the road which we want it to take. If we can get the number of sheep up again, both the hon. Gentleman and I will be very grateful. We shall both regard it as a big step in the right direction for sheep farming.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at One minute past Twelve o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Chichester.
The Earl of Liverpool—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his kinsman.

SOUTHERN YEMEN CIVIL SERVANTS' PENSIONS
LORD TREVELYN: My Lords, I beg to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have now further examined the question of responsibility for the pensions of indigenous civil servants formerly working in the Colony of Aden and the Protectorate of South Arabia, and what decision they have reached.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD SHEPHERD): My Lords, on July 22 I told the House that Her Majesty's Government's consistent policy over many years is to regard overseas Governments as responsible for the payment of all public service pensions, including, in the case of independent Governments, the obligations of their predecessors. Consequently, responsibility for the payment of these pensions rests with the Southern Yemen Government. This Question remains under examination and I regret that I cannot say when a decision is likely to be reached. Both I and my right honourable friend the Minister of Overseas Development are well aware of the strength of the noble Lord's feelings, but the difficulties in relation to other pensioners to which I referred on July 22 remain very real.
LORD TREVELYAN: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware
838
of the many hard cases which there are as a result of the Government's not taking any decision in favour of these pensioners two years after the independence of South Arabia; for instance, that of one man who, having served the British for 15 years in South Arabia in the Protectorate service and having retired before independence, was given an M.B.E. and a Certificate of Honour, and left without any pension, or even the payment of his whole gratuity?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I am well aware of the numbers and I have already expressed great sympathy for them, particularly those who have been unjustly deprived of their pensions by their own Government. As I have already said, this matter is still under close examination and I hope that in the not-too-far distant future a reply can be given.
LORD MOLSON: My Lords, if this Government is in receipt of financial assistance from the British Government, would it not be appropriate to deduct from that financial assistance sufficient funds to meet the legitimate claims of pensions for civil servants?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, that may be, but I believe (I speak subject to correction) that the aid and assistance to the Southern Yemen Government to which we had committed ourselves has now been given.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, since this problem is one which covers a number of ex-British Colonies, may I ask my noble friend whether he can say what consultation has taken place with Commonwealth Governments about this issue; and whether it is intended to discuss it at the next Commonwealth Ministers' Conference to try to find a solution?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, this is not, I suspect, a matter on which Her Majesty's Government would consult Commonwealth Governments, since the Southern Yemen is not part of the Commonwealth. But in answer to a previous Question, I have already indicated the great difficulties that arise in this particular case; and that is one of the reasons, I fear, why undue delay has taken place.

RHODESIA: SANCTIONS AND CHROME ORE SUPPLIES
2.40 p.m.
LORD COLERAINE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what has been the change, if any, since November, 1965, in the price of those grades of chrome ore which were previously imported into this country from Rhodesia.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, MINISTRY OF TECHNOLOGY (LORD DELACOURT-SMITH): My Lords, there are no official figures for the prices of Rhodesian chrome ore, nor for comparable grades from other sources. Price series published in the British and United States trade Press suggest that broadly comparable grades of ore have risen in price between 25 and 50 per cent., depending on source and quality. We do not now import these grades. The Overseas Trade Accounts of the United Kingdom show that the average value of the chrome ore we did import in the six months ended September, 1969, was £12 2s. per ton, compared with £11 1s. per ton in the six months ended November, 1965. In terms of dollars, the average value fell, since sterling was devalued in the intervening period.
LORD COLERAINE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether the rise in price of between 25 and 50 per cent. in roughly comparable grades of ore is to be taken as evidence of the success of the sanctions policy or of its failure?
LORD DELACOURT-SMITH: My Lords, I cannot express a view upon the influence of the sanctions policy on this rise, but I should like to make the point that Rhodesia was only a minor supplier; and in the two years prior to the imposition of sanctions—that is to say, in 1964 and 1965—our imports from that source amounted to 31,000 tons, out of a total import of 423,000 tons. As the United Kingdom imports have fallen to 256,000 tons over the past two years, the loss of Rhodesian ore has had no effect on our overall supply position.
LORD COLERAINE: But, my Lords, is it not the case that Rhodesian ore was
840
of the very highest grade, and therefore the most valuable to industry?
LORD DELACOURT-SMITH: My Lords, Rhodesian ore was metallurgical ore and used mainly in the production of ferro-chrome. There is now no production of ferro-chrome in the United Kingdom. Production ceased about three years ago because it had become uneconomic, and I understand that consideration of the cessation of production had been taking place before that time. No chrome ore has been imported since 1967 from any other major source, so the ending of the Rhodesian supplies of metallurgical grade chrome ore, although it followed the application of sanctions, was not a consequence of them, and imports of this grade of ore from other sources have been equally affected.
LORD COLERAINE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether their attention has been drawn to a report in The Times newspaper of November 6, 1969, to the effect that the Union Carbide Company has asked the United States Government for permission to import chromium ore from Rhodesia because Russian production, even though it has been increased, is unable to fill the gap created by sanctions; and whether Her Majesty's Government will reconsider a policy which is evidently most damaging to the interests of the free world.]
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, since Union Carbide is an American firm this is a matter for the United States Government and not one on which I can properly comment. There is no question of Her Majesty's Government reconsidering their sanctions policy.
LORD COLERAINE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord how long he expects other countries like the United States to "carry the can" for Her Majesty's Government's mistaken policy in Rhodesia?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the countries of the United Nations are committed to the resolution of the United Nations. If the noble Lord has any doubts about the attitude of the United States Government, I would refer him to what Mr. Newsom, Assistant Secretary in

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the State Department, said when the Union Carbide Company lodged a petition with the State Department to be permitted to bring chrome into the United States.
LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY: My Lords, is not the reality of the situation this: that there is a considerable shortage of chrome and nickel in the world, both of which are available in Rhodesia; and is it not likely, whatever the attitude of Her Majesty's Government, that the world will obtain these commodities from Rhodesia if they cannot get them from anywhere else?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I understand that there was some shortage of chrome in the United States, mainly due to a strike in Canada. The noble Lord speaks of the reality of the situation, but surely the reality is that Rhodesia is in rebellion, not only against the Crown of this country but also against what the people of the world generally accept as right. Until Rhodesia brings itself back into a legal position with the Crown, sanctions should continue.
LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURY: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that many of us do not agree with his view?—though of course we cannot debate the matter now.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the noble Lord has made that perfectly clear on many occasions.

NIGERIA: PEACE NEGOTIATIONS EFFORTS
2.41 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what action has been taken, in view of statements by both General Gowon and General Ojukwu that they are prepared to enter negotiations unconditionally, to encourage a meeting between representatives of both sides in the Nigerian/Biafran war.]
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, African statesmen from many countries are working hard to get negotiations started. The Government are giving their full support to these efforts.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his Answer, may I ask this question? In view of the fact that both sides have now indicated that they are prepared to enter negotiations without any conditions, is it not desirable that the British Government should use their influence with the Nigerian Government to accept this opportunity, rather than increase the arms supply to Nigeria, which has shocked and shamed many of us on these Benches?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, my noble friend knows that pressure of international opinion in favour of peace is not lacking, and that recently African statesmen have been most actively seeking to bring about this peace. There is no lack of friends on both sides who would wish to help if they were asked, but it is the opposing sides alone who can make this possible. We are satisfied that the Federal Government is willing to send representatives to any mutually acceptable place to talk with Colonel Ojukwu and his representatives, without any conditions, to explore whether the basis of a settlement can be found. Colonel Ojukwu knows this well. Is he willing to accept? Some of his recent statements have been bellicose. He is reported to have said on November 16 that Biafra would refuse to rejoin Nigeria, even if the security of its people were guaranteed. He is therefore apparently still seeking sovereignty and independence, rather than the security of his people. Until the two sides can find an acceptable basis for talks, I do not believe that any special initiative by this country would prove successful.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, again thanking my noble friend, may I ask: in view of the facts he indicated, that the difficulty is opposition on both sides, and that while Colonel Ojukwu is making certain statements, on the other side similiar statements, which make peace difficult, are being made, is it not now the responsibility of the British Government, who are providing arms to one side, to use their influence with that side to try to bring about negotiations, which both sides have accepted without conditions and which, with British pressure, could be brought about?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, my noble friend is as well aware as I am that

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Her Majesty's Government, through many months, have taken considerable initiatives with the Federal Government of Nigeria. We are satisfied that the Federal Government would seek a settlement, provided that one Nigeria would remain. It is the failure of Colonel Ojukwu and those in Biafra to come together and talk in realistic terms that has kept the two sides apart.
LORD GRANTCHESTER: My Lords, will Her Majesty's Government make it clear that, so far as they are concerned, the tribes of Africa, which I understand number over 2,000, have a perfect right to group themselves as they wish without interference or advice from outside? May I also ask the Minister what conclusion he expects Biafrans to draw from the supply of arms for use against them, other than that the British Government want to continue the war for their own ends?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I think that that is a most outrageous statement in the noble Lord's question. We believe that the fragmentation of Africa, if it were to continue, would be very dangerous for the peace of Africa and for its economic growth. We believe that the problem of Nigeria is an African problem and therefore something for the Africans themselves to solve. We certainly will do all we can.
I would remind the noble Lord that Nigeria is a Commonwealth country, which has looked to us as a traditional supplier of arms. If we were to say, as the noble Lord and many of his friends suggest, that the supply should be discontinued, that would be an arbitrary and unilateral act against a lawful Government in Africa.
LORD GRANTCHESTER: My Lords, is it for the British Government to decide how these tribes wish to group themselves?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, how the tribes of Africa are grouped is a consequence of history. But Nigeria is a sovereign country. It came into being by the united voice of its people, and it is not for any of us here, I suggest, to seek to break it up.
LORD ALPORT: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that it is contrary to the interests of Africa as a whole that the development of tribalism should be assisted from outside sources, and that there are many people who fully support Her Majesty's Government in carrying out their obligations to the Federal Government, as a Commonwealth Government, under the defence Agreement by the supplying of arms?
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTER: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether more could be done to assist the needs of the starving while this is going on? Does the statement made by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in another place yesterday, in reply to a Question about assisting mercy flights, that it would not be proper for Her Majesty's Government to assist in such flights over the air space of a friendly country, imply that the difficulties in promoting those flights do not rest with Biafra only, but with both sides?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, that is another question different from that on the Order Paper. It is one that we have gone over many times, and if the right reverend Prelate will put it down on the Order Paper I should prefer to deal with it as a separate question.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, is my noble friend aware how very deeply many of us on these Benches feel about this issue? Indeed, is he aware that some of us have doubted whether we ought to continue to receive the Whip while the policy of the Government proceeds? But we are reassured by the fact that the Labour Party Executive and the Labour Party Conference support us in our view, and that it is Her Majesty's Government who are defying the Labour Party on this issue.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I know that my noble friend has very strong feelings on this matter. I am sure that, knowing my own particular interest in it, he will agree, that I share equally the same desires that he does, but I see it in a different light.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, could the noble Lord say whether the statement that appeared in the Press about a

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fortnight ago, in which Colonel Ojukwu was reported to have said that he was prepared to enter into negotiations without the secession of Biafra as a precondition, was in fact true; and, if so, did this not give some glimmer of light?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, one of the difficulties right through these many months has been to know what was, or was not, an authorised statement. The noble Earl has put one statement. May I remind the House of a statement that was issued and was printed in the Guardian yesterday, November 17? It said that Colonel Ojukwu said that he would be ready to accept a cease-fire during peace negotiations provided that a time limit was set. He then said that Biafra would refuse to join Nigeria, even if the security of its people were guaranteed. Some three or four weeks ago he was standing on the security of his people. Now he is getting away from it. But, as I have said on many occasions, one of the difficulties is to know what is the voice of Colonel Ojukwu and what is the voice of propaganda.
LORD MILVERTON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord one question? We have heard a good deal about strong feelings on this and that. I understand that in other circumstances strong feelings are felt by
certain Members of this House about the rebellion and the way it ought to be treated. May I therefore ask whether it is not being overlooked by many Members, and especially by the noble Lord who asked this Question, that in this case we are dealing with a rebellion, because in 1960, after lengthy discussion among every section represented in Nigeria, a document on which the Federation was founded was signed by every representative of every section, stating that secession was not to be permitted unless it was universally agreed upon?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I will not follow the noble Lord in his long supplementary, but I would agree with him that there was this statement. There was a Constitution that was accepted by the representatives of the people of Nigeria; and it was on that that Parliament gave independence to Nigeria.

TRANSPORT (LONDON) AMENDMENT BILL
Brought from the Commons on Friday last, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill, within the meaning of the Parliament Act 1911, and printed, pursuant to Standing Order No. 45; read 1a.
EDINBURGH CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936), deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.

CONSOLIDATION BILLS
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That in the present Session a Committee of twelve Lords be appointed to join with a Committee of the House of Commons as a Joint Committee to consider the following classes of Bills:—

1. All Consolidation Bills whether public or private;

2. Statute Law Revision Bills;

3. Bills prepared pursuant to the Consolidation of Enactments (Procedure Act 1949), together with any and any representations made with respect thereto;

4. Bills to consolidate any enactments with amendments to give effect to recommendations made by one or both of the Law Commissions, together with any report containing such recommendations:

5. Bills prepared by one or both of the Law Commissions to promote the reform of the Statute Law by the repeal, in accordance with the Law Commission recommendations, of certain enactments which (except in so far as their effect is preserved) are no longer of practical utility, and by making other provision in connection with

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the repeal of those enactments, together with any Law Commission report on any such Bill;

That the Lords following be named of the Committee:

V. Colville of Culross,

V. Brentford,

L. Rathcreedan,

L. Cawley,

L. Meston,

L. Guest,

L. Ilford,

L. Upjohn,

L. Royle,

L. Segal,

L. Wells-Pestell,

L. Lloyd of Hampstead:

That such Committee have power to agree with the Committee of the House of Commons in the appointment of a Chairman.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith and to desire them to appoint an equal number of their Members to be joined with the said Lords.

AMENDMENT OF THE MILK MARKETING SCHEME 1933
2.56 p.m.
LORD HILTON OF UPTON: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Beswick, I beg to move that the Amendment of the Milk Marketing Scheme 1933, a draft of which was laid before this House on October 29 last, be approved. Your Lordships will not wish me to remind you of all the activities of the Milk Marketing Board. You will appreciate the need for capital equipment, especially in the effort to maintain a manufacturing demand for milk when seasonal surplus exceeds the liquid market demand. The Board also has a large transport fleet and some wholesale and retail depots. It is not empowered to issue shares on the market, though it may borrow through normal channels. Under the original scheme of 1933, the Board could require each registered producer to contribute up to 1s. annually for every milch cow in his possession. From this the Board had to meet all its costs, including the costs of administration and any capital expenditure.
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In 1955, the Scheme was extensively amended, with the approval of both Houses of Parliament. One of the amendments altered the method of financing the Board by empowering it to finance its operations from the revenues of its trading in, and handling of, milk and milk products, and also by allowing it to require registered producers to contribute up to one farthing from each gallon of milk sold during the year. Both these provisions still apply. I will refer to the first, for convenience, as the revenue method, and to the second as the levy method.
Finance is raised under the revenue method by reducing the buying price to producers. The Board's revenues from trading in milk are thus increased; these of course are subject to tax in the hands of the Board. Up to 1964 the Board raised all the money it needed in this way. However, a ruling was given by the
Inland Revenue in 1964 that the Board would not be taxed on money raised from
producers and used solely for capital purposes. The Board therefore began to raise finance from producers by the levy method, using the proceeds for capital purposes only. By this means some Board capital expenditure could be financed at a lesser cost to the producers than would have been the case if the money had been raised by the revenue method. The levy was increased from 0·16d. per gallon in the 1965–66 financial year to 0·25d. in the 1968–69 year. This is the maximum allowed by the Scheme as it now stands. The Board continues to finance its current expenditure by the revenue method.
My Lords, the Board now needs extra capital for development. The Board has acquired 17 new creameries and dairies and two cheese stores since 1961, and further developments are planned. Substantial re-equipment and modernisation is also proposed. New transport depots have been set up, and the number of lorries owned has increased. The growth of bulk collection means that more tankers have had to be added to the Board's fleet and more will be needed. Other interests also are developing—for instance, artificial insemination. That is why the Board needs more than the £2¼ million yielded annually by the present farthing levy. The Amendment now before your Lordships would raise the

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maximum rate of levy to one halfpenny per gallon, which would produce on present sales a total of £4½ million annually.
My right honourable friends, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and the Secretary of State for Wales, in considering whether this Amendment should be submitted for your Lordships' consideration, recognised that while the Amendment would enable the Board to increase its capital resources at the lowest possible cost to producers it would also enable the Board to take further advantage of a tax arrangement which does not apply to its competitors in the private trade. But it is the Board's duty to carry out its functions at the minimum cost to producers and, as I have said, the Board, unlike its trade competitors, has no power to issue shares on the market. My right honourable friends concluded that it would not he justifiable to refuse to recommend this Amendment, because they were satisfied that to do so would hamper the Board in its efforts to use producers' money to the best advantage. They also believe that consumers can benefit from an increase in the Board's manufacturing capacity, in that the establishment of Board creameries at places where seasonal surpluses arise avoids the need for milk to be transported long distances at a cost which ultimately falls on the consumer. I commend the proposed Amendment to your Lordships as one which will conduce to the more efficient operation of the Scheme.
Moved, That the Draft Amendment of the Milk Marketing Scheme 1933, laid before the House on October 29 last, be approved.—(Lord Hilton of Upton.)
3.5 p.m.
LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hilton of Upton, for explaining to us the purpose of this Order, which I recommend my noble friends to accept. In introducing the Order to us, the noble Lord explained the tax advantage which the Milk Marketing Board gets from this strange concession but which no ordinary trading organisation would get. The Milk Marketing Board has my complete sympathy and support in choosing the method of financing its developments most advantageous to it, but I would observe to the noble Lord that this tax philosophy seems
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a little strange in the general commercial context, and perhaps his right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will think about it.
The developments about which the noble Lord told us—the greater development of milk products, the acquisition of new creameries, cheese stores, and more transport in order to convey the milk—have implications which it would not be right for me to go into to-day. But they pose very powerfully to noble Lords opposite, and to the Minister of Agriculture, the problem of the structure of the milk industry, because if more butter, more cheese and more milk powder are to be manufactured, then there must be a remunerative outlet for it, and at present a large part of that outlet is filled by imports. As we well know, imports tend to flood into this country from Europe, where they have what I believe is called the "butter mountain" of some 400,000 to 500,000 tons of butter surplus waiting to slide into this country at any time it can do so. If the Milk Marketing Board is developing in the way where more of its product is going into manufacturing processes, so that a smaller proportion of the total goes for raw milk, some thought must be given to the economic structure of the industry; and some means must be found to ensure a more advantageous financial return than it is now getting in direct competition with these milk product imports.
The other point I want to raise concerns another of the many valuable activities which the Milk Marketing Board carries out—and this is a development that causes no embarrassment to the Government: I mean the encouragement by the Board for dairy farmers to use the spare breeding capacity of their cows to produce beef calves. They do this by providing an artificial insemination service for the cow. Services that are not required for the supplementation of the dairy herd itself are therefore used to produce a beef calf by crossing a beef bull, by artificial insemination, with the dairy cows. This raises no embarrassing problems such as I have just mentioned with regard to butter or cheese, because this produces beef, and we are desperately short of beef. As we know, we have to import large quantities of beef, principally from the Argentine, which is expensive and carries with it the risk of

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foot-and-mouth disease coming into this country. Therefore in every way this is a development to be encouraged.
The Milk Marketing Board has done a great deal in the development of these beef bulls for crossing, both in the progeny testing of them and in laying on the service, which is entirely attractive to the dairy farmer. But this all costs him a great deal, and I should like to ask the noble Lord whether he will pass on to his right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture the suggestion that, as this particular development is something so valuable in the public interest, the Minister should consider some means of further encouragement, by means of some suitable award in the Price Review, to dairy farmers to produce these beef calves from the dairy herd. This would seem to be in every way in the public interest and would take the present cost off the shoulders of the dairy farmers.
In a general way, I should like to pay my tribute to the efficiency of the Milk Marketing Board. It really is a most remarkable body, which not only serves the dairy farmer well but, I believe, serves the whole economy well and efficiently in collecting milk from the farms and distributing it to the wholesalers, and generally organising this industry with very great efficiency indeed. I am quite sure that no money is wasted in this vast administration. Therefore I accept the noble Lord's recommendation to us that we should increase this levy. Most of the increase, as we know, is going for capital purposes. Perhaps in replying the noble Lord would answer just one further point. Is the levy an expense which is taken into account at the Price Review as part of the cost to the dairy farmer of production, and therefore recovered to him in the Award? With those few comments, my Lords, I have much pleasure in supporting the Order.
LORD MACPHERSON OF DRUMOCHTER: My Lords, I support this Order, but may I ask the Minister one question? Could he explain to us the policy of the Milk Marketing Board so far as its development as a manufacturing industry is concerned?
LORD HILTON OF UPTON: My Lords, in reply to the question just posed
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by my noble friend Lord Macpherson of Drumochter, if he does not mind I should prefer to write him on this point. The reply would be rather long, and might take up too much time now. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford, very much for the support he has given to this Amendment and for the interesting remarks he had to make about it. I think he did well to remind the House that, if we were not careful, a considerable amount of butter could at some time easily be arriving in this country to flood our market.
I was interested in what the noble Lord had to say about policy for beef calves, because this is one of the facets on which, as the noble Lord said, the present Government are concentrating, and this is why I referred in particular to the need for more money for the purposes of artificial insemination, which plays such an important part in this field. I will certainly draw the attention of my right honourable friend to what the noble Lord had to say about a little more recoupment at the next Price Review. Would the noble Lord remind me of the other question he raised?
LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD: My Lords, is the increased levy an increased cost which is taken into account at the Price Review for recoupment to the farmers?
LORD HILTON OF UPTON: My Lords, I am pretty sure that the answer to that question is, "Yes", but if I may I will write to the noble Lord on this point.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

NATIONAL INSURANCE (INDUS TRIAL INJURIES) (COLLIERY WORKERS SUPPLEMENTARY SCHEME) AMENDMENT (No. 2) ORDER 1969
3.14 p.m.
BARONESS PHILLIPSrose to move, That the National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) (Colliery Workers Supplementary Scheme) Amendment (No. 2) Order 1969, the draft of which was laid before this House on October 29, be approved. The noble Baroness said: My Lords, the Colliery Workers Supplementary Scheme

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provides supplementary benefit for colliery workers (or their dependants) who receive benefit under the Industrial Injuries Act for colliery accidents or diseases. The Scheme is administered by a National Committee comprising equal numbers of representatives drawn from both sides of the industry. Benefit is provided from a Fund to which contributions are made by employers and employees only—there is no charge on the Exchequer or on the Industrial Injuries Fund. Your Lordships may recall having approved previous Orders maintaining the present rates of supplementary injury and disablement benefits. The Order for which I am now seeking approval will extend this standstill arrangement until June 2, 1970.
The National Coal Board and the unions have been involved in negotiations about not only this Scheme but other benefit schemes in the industry, and although agreement has been reached in principle it has not been possible to agree and to draft all the detailed amendments to the various schemes in time for them to have effect before the present Order expires on December 2. This extension has
therefore been requested by both sides of the National Committee. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Draft National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) (Colliery Workers Supplementary Scheme) Amendment (No. 2) Order 1969, laid before the House on October 29 last, be approved.—(Baroness Phillips.)
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, there is just one point that I should like to ask the noble Baroness. Am I to understand from what she says that this standstill of the supplementary benefit is purely so that further negotiations can take place?
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, that is quite correct.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether this applies only to coal mining or to all mining in this country?
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, as I understand it, it applies to coal mining.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MATRIMONIAL PROCEEDINGS AND PROPERTY BILL [H.L.]
3.17 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF LISTOWEL in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 [Financial provision for party to a marriage in cases of divorce, etc.]:
THE LORD CHANCELLORmoved Amendment No. 1:
Page 2, line 36, at beginning insert ("Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1)(c) above").
The noble and learned Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 1 standing in my name on the Order Paper. I should be grateful if the Committee would allow me to refer also to Amendments Nos. 2 and 5, which are on exactly the same point. The Amendment arises out of a question raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, on the Second Reading of the Bill, when he suggested that, as drafted, Clause 2(2)(a) could be read as restricting the circumstances in which a lump sum order can be made under Clause 2(1)(c). That was certainly not the intention, and it had not been my view that a court would so construe it. But, as we all know, construction is something on which even lawyers are apt peculiarly to differ, and exactly the same point has been raised
by the President of the Probate, Divorce and Admiralty Division. Therefore it is obviously a matter on which there may be doubt; and if there is doubt it is of course wise to remove it. The doubt is removed by prefacing this subsection—and similarly in Amendments 2 and 5—by the words, "Without prejudice to the generality of subsection 1(c) above". I beg to move.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I should like to thank the noble and

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learned Lord for this Amendment, which entirely meets the point.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 2, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD WADE: May I raise one point before we leave Clause 2? On Second Reading debate I referred to the payment of lump sums and pointed out that all too often the capital just is not there. It has been represented to me by a Committee of the Law Society, however, that where a lump sum is awarded together with periodical payments it is important that the party receiving the lump sum and the periodical payments should not be able to fritter away the lump sum and then seek to increase the periodical payments. It seems to me that where an application was made for a revision of the periodic payments the court would naturally take into account what had happened to the lump sum. I do not know whether it is possible to make any provision that the lump sum shall not be frittered away, but as this point has been drawn to my attention it seems only right that I should mention it.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising the point, but I think the answer is as he suggests. The Bill carefully provides that orders for lump sums cannot in the future be varied; they are intended, like a transfer of property, to be a settlement made on the breakdown of the marriage. I do not think any provision could be inserted in the Bill making it impossible for anybody to spend the lump sum, but I think such a person would get little sympathy if he or she tried to obtain an increase in the periodical payments simply because the lump sum had been squandered.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3 [Financial provision for child of the family in cases of divorce, etc.]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This is the second of the three Amendments to which I referred. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 30, at beginning insert ("Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (2)(c) above").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
3.22 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL BARONESS SUMMERSKILL moved Amendment No. 3.
Page 4, line 3, at end insert—
("(6) Whenever the court shall make an order for periodical payments by one party to the other under section 2(1)(a) or (b) of this Bill and also an order under section 3(2)(a) or (b) for the maintenance of dependent minor children of the family, the amount of the order made under section 3(2)(a) or (b) shall adequately cover the cost of maintenance of such children of the family, including the cost of such adult supervision as they shall require, before any sum shall be expressed to be made under section 2(1)(a) or (b).")
The noble Baroness said: Although this Amendment appears to be a little involved, my object is quite simple, and I hope the Committee will agree that it is a praiseworthy one. The object of the Amendment is to provide greater financial security for the children of the parties by making them the first charge on the available resources. I feel that I have powerful support in this matter, for I would ask your Lordships to read footnote No. 70 to paragraph 33 of the Law Commission's Report No. 25. This footnote exhorts the courts to draw a clearer distinction than they do at present between provision for a spouse herself and provision for the children. May I just read that footnote in the Report? It refers to the case of Northrop v. Northrop, and it says:
"If our foregoing recommendation that provision for a spouse should cease on remarriage is implemented it will behove the courts to draw a clearer distinction than they always do at present between provision for a spouse herself and provision for children, since payments relating to the latter should not cease on the remarriage of the spouse."
I do not believe that this exhortation at the bottom of page 15 of the Law Commission's Report is enough. In my view, we need a legislative provision that where any maintenance order covers maintenance for a spouse and one totally dependent child of the family the first charge—say, £9 per week of the order—must be expressed to cover maintenance for the child, with correspondingly larger amounts for two or more dependent children. The reason I mention the figure of £9 is that £9 per week is suggested in paragraph 173 of the Report of the Committee on Statutory Maintenance Limits (Cmnd. 3587) as the appropriate cost of maintaining one such child. I believe there should be an end to the

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present fiction that a man is maintaining his former wife when probably in the majority of cases all he is doing is making an inadequate contribution towards the maintenance of the dependent children, whom he helped to bring into the world. I hope that my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor will agree with me on this matter because it is quite clear to me that within the Law Commission there must be some great sympathy with my point of view, otherwise the footnote that I have quoted would not have been included in their Report. I believe that only if we amend the Bill in this way shall we implement the Law Commission's Report. I beg to move.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I have listened with the greatest care to what my noble friend Lady Summerskill has said. We shall all, of course, agree on the importance of making proper provision for the children; indeed, this Bill emphasises that in many ways. Although certain
applications cannot be made by a spouse after more than a reasonable time following a divorce, there is no time limit so far as children are concerned. But the Amendment which my noble friend proposes provides that whenever a court makes an order for periodical payments by one party to the other for the maintenance of the dependent minor children of the family the amount of the order made under Clause 3(2)(a) or (b) shall adequately cover the cost of maintenance of such children of the family, including the cost of such adult supervision as they shall require, before any sum shall be expressed to be paid under Clause 2(1)(a) or (b) —that is to say, for the wife.
No doubt it is a matter of opinion whether, if there is not enough for the proper maintenance of the wife and children, the children should have it all and the wife should remain destitute. But I should have thought that many of your Lordships would not think that that was the right principle. After all, where there are small children in the custody of the wife, as nowadays is normally the case, whether the wife is what used to be called the "innocent" party or the "guilty" party, the money obviously cannot be paid to small infants. It is paid to the wife, and out of it she provides for them as best she can. She does not write down on a piece of paper how much she spends
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on food for herself and how much for the children. Moreover, the wife is not necessarily looking after the children; and if she is not looking after the children then the Amendment would clearly produce the wrong result, because it would mean that she would necessarily get nothing unless there was more than was required to cover the cost of the maintenance of the children.
Another difficulty of principle about the Amendment is that it assumes that the maintenance of the children is the responsibility of one parent only. Of course, that is not so: it is the responsibility of both parents; and both should be expected to contribute, so far as they can and so far as their resources allow, towards it. If, therefore, the wife has earnings of her own, it may well be wrong in principle to make the husband responsible for the whole of the children's maintenance.
The Bill is carefully constructed and the Amendment is clearly inconsistent with the structure of Clauses 2 to 5 of the Bill. These clauses provide a code under which the matters to which the court is to have regard in making any of the possible orders are carefully set out. My noble friend's Amendment would, for the benefit of one particular case, cut across the principles laid down. It is clearly in conflict with Clause 5(1) if, as that subsection provides, the result to be achieved is prima facie to put the wife in the same position as she would have been in had the marriage not broken down. It must be wrong to provide that she gets nothing until the full claims of the children are catered for. It is equally inconsistent with Clause 5(3), which clearly contemplates that a husband may properly be ordered to pay reduced payments to a child of the family of which he is not the father. The Amendment would make this impossible. If such a child were included in the order, either he must get full maintenance or the wife can get nothing.
A further difficulty about the Amendment is that it assumes that there will be enough available to maintain the children and to provide, I suppose, for a nurse or a nursery school. I say that because of the words
"including the cost of such adult supervision as they shall require …".

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But there may not be enough, and the court cannot then both provide for the wife and comply with the new subsection, except, curiously enough, by making no order for the children, because there is nothing in the Amendment to provide that the court must make an order for the children. The court is given no guidance as to what adequately covers the cost of maintenance and supervision. Some people might think that it would be a good thing if the child went to a fee-paying school, but if so and that had to be provided, there again if there were insufficient to maintain the wife as well she would be left destitute.
One of the curious things about the Amendment is that it has no effect unless the court makes an order for periodical payments in favour of both the spouse and the children. So the court can easily exclude the operation of the Amendment by giving the wife a lump sum; the Amendment would not apply at all. It seems strange that the court's only alternative to giving the children everything may be to give them nothing, which would have the same effect. As a matter of fact, as I am sure the noble Viscount will appreciate, in a sense there is a logical impossibility about the Amendment, because it applies only where a judge is making an order for periodical payments to both wife and children. When it is applied, the wife must not have anything unless the children are fully provided for, but unless an order is made for the wife as well it does not start to operate. I hope very much that when my noble friend considers what I have said she will see the difficulties and will not press the Amendment.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: The noble Baroness founded her argument very much on the footnote on page 15 of the Law Commission's Report. I wonder whether the learned and noble Lord could clear up the facts of the situation for me. Plainly, it is right that if periodical payments to the spouse are to cease on remarriage the courts should differentiate, if they can, between those payments and any periodical payments to the children. But even if they do not, as I understand it the periodical payments to the children under Clause 3(2) can be varied on subsequent appli-
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cation under Clause 9. So, even if the courts do not listen to the good advice of the Law Commission in this footnote and they make some inadequate order at the initial stage which then turns out to be wrong, upon remarriage of the wife there is no reason why somebody should not go back on behalf of the children and ask for the order to be varied. Therefore, the matter is not irremediable if it is not done correctly in the first place, and I think this is a complete answer to the noble Baroness's point.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Viscount is quite right.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Once more I am all alone with the law on the other side, but as I feel I have the members of the Law Commission quite clearly supporting me I feel that I have a strength which, unfortunately, is not represented in this Chamber today. My noble and learned friend has not convinced me; in fact he frightens me when he tells me what the courts might do—the ruthless things which the courts might do. As I shall seek to show on another Amendment, in my opinion the fundamental weakness of this Bill is the fact that any decision is at the discretion of the court. The court is not one single entity; it represents all kinds of different human beings scattered all over the country. Because of that, I think the courts of this country should have much clearer directions, and I agree with the Law Commission in their footnote. We must recognise that leaving these matters to the discretion of individuals, who may well be subjective in their approach, is dangerous.
My noble and learned friend says he hopes that I will not press the Amendment to a Division. I have several Amendments down on the Marshalled List to-day and I probably shall not press any of them—not, I assure the House, because my convictions are weakened, but because whereas on the Divorce Reform Bill we had a free vote, and we were told in July that this Bill was expected to be complementary to the Divorce Reform Bill, there is no free vote to-day. I am astonished and disappointed that a Whip has been issued on this matter. Therefore, it would be simply wearying your Lordships to press the Amendment to a Division, however I

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regard the Amendment and whatever the justice embodied in it. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4 [Orders for transfer and settlement of property and for variation of settlements in cases of divorce, etc.]:
3.37 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL BARONESS SUMMERSKILL moved Amendment No. 4:
Page 4, line 32, at end insert—
(" (2) Unless the court finds reasons to the contrary, which shall be stated, it shall make an order under section 4(1)(a) for the transfer to the other party of property which shall put that other party in possession of approximately one half of all property acquired by either or both parties during the marriage.")
The noble Baroness said: I beg to move Amendment No. 4. I am moving this Amendment in order to incorporate a provision to protect that wife for whom all the House had great sympathy on July 24, the woman innocent of any matrimonial offence who, on the operation of the Divorce Reform Act, can be divorced against her will. I am sorry to repeat this, but it is a piece of very important history which I think should be recalled. In July, when an Amendment was accepted by the promoters of the Divorce Reform Bill that the operation of the Bill should be postponed until January 1, 1971, we were under the impression that that would enable the Government to introduce a Bill which would contain provisions to protect that particular wife, whom we call the paragraph (e) wife. I have said this before but I must repeat it. The Bill before us now had already been prepared on July 24, and instead of being amended, as one would have thought after that debate on July 24, nothing at all was done; the Bill was printed and published as it was, and it is before us to-day. Therefore, all those excellent speeches showing the compassion of Members on both sides of the House for the woman who is going to be divorced against her will meant nothing. This Bill was printed, published and no amendment made.
What I am trying to do to-day is to move an Amendment which in my opinion should have been incorporated
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in the Bill. The Law Commission's Report No. 25 expressed the view that in considering financial provisions regard should be given to the contribution which over the years the woman makes to the home in terms of service—cooking, cleaning, bearing children, looking after children, looking after her husband and so enabling him to go out and earn a wage or salary. This point has been pressed time after time, and at long last it is a recommendation of the Law Commission's Report, and is mentioned in the Bill in Clause 5(1)(e). But this provision, which surely equity demands, is left to the discretion of the court. However individuals up and down the country may feel about the contribution which a woman makes to the home, it is left to the discretion of the court whether that contribution shall be reflected in the financial provisions which are made.
In many families the possessions accumulated over the years consist of a modest terraced or semi-detached house, probably with a mortgage on it, some furniture and a second-hand car—I am thinking in terms of people whose earthly possessions are things of that kind which have accumulated over marriage. I believe that these small accumulations can be attributed as much to the wife's good management and services in the home as to the husband's capacity to earn a wage or a salary, and I believe that the Matrimonial Property Bill, which passed its Second Reading in another place but was withdrawn in anticipation of an improved measure, contained this provision. That Bill obtained a large majority in another place.
I am not for one moment trying to legislate for the tiny minority of "gold diggers" who, having lead a parasitical existence, would on a divorce automatically take half of the property or goods. I am not concerned with those women. Everybody knows that they exist. We have heard so much in regard to this new Bill about a woman supporting her husband that I suppose that soon "gold digger" will be applied to both sexes. But since before this Bill is passed it refers to a female, I say that I am not concerned with her. I believe that she can be outwitted—I deliberately use the word "outwitted" about that kind of

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woman—by the opening words of this Amendment; namely,
"Unless the court finds reasons to the contrary, which shall be stated,"—
in other words, the court shall be told that this particular woman has made but little contribution to the home and that she really is not entitled to a fair share of the accumulated goods. But with regard to the lower income groups, I am concerned that unless the first wife is specifically protected and given a first claim on the available resources she will be denied elementary justice.
This Amendment draws attention to what I have already said is a fundamental weakness of this Bill; namely, the lack of any rules limiting the discretion of the court. It lies with any court simply to decide how a woman, innocent in the matrimonial sense—not for one moment do I say that when a marriage breaks up one individual is completely innocent—is to be treated. I believe that the treatment accorded her in regard to financial provision is left to the complete discretion of the court. I think this is grossly unfair and that if we arc to secure justice there should be some specific direction. I beg to move.
3.43 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: What the Bill does is all the Bill can do. It extends the powers of the court by allowing it, not alternatively but cumulatively and in a proper place, to award not merely those payments which have to be made while the suit is going on but, on a divorce, periodical payments, or a lump sum, or a transfer of property; and things can be secured. For the first time it puts down in writing in Clause 5 the matters which the court is to take into account. This is really the effect of the present case law plus something which has never been put down before; namely, that the court should have regard to the contribution which the wife has made by staying at home and looking after the family. But every case varies, and it would be quite impossible to draw up some sort of mathematical table as to what a judge should do. Naturally, where circumstances vary so much, it must be a matter of discretion.
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What this Amendment would do is to introduce the substance of Mr. Bishop's Bill, which was designed to provide for community of all property. The Committee should be clear as to exactly what the Amendment says. It says:
"Unless the court finds reasons to the contrary"—
so again it really all goes back to the judge's discretion—
"which shall be stated, it shall make an order under section 4(1)(a) for the transfer to the other party of property which shall put that other party in possession of approximately one half of all property acquired by either or both parties during the marriage".
That is a principle which I should have thought is just as likely to lead to the wrong result as to the right or the fair one. Are half the wife's hard-earned savings to go to pay the husband's bookmaker? Are half his business assets, acquired independently of his domestic life, to be taken away from the business and given to a woman who knows nothing about business? He may have turned his business into a limited company with 100 shares, and he has the 100 shares. What happens if he gives 50 shares to his wife? All in the courts are familiar with the impossible position where two men jointly own a company and they fall out. If one calls a directors' meeting and the other does not attend, the only thing to do is to put the company into liquidation, just as, where there are two 50 per cent. partners who do not agree, the only thing to do is to wind up the partnership. Again, if the husband has deserted his wife and the wife remains in the matrimonial home with the children, is she to be obliged to hand to her husband half the furniture, although he may have plenty of pre-marriage furniture of his own? Curiously enough, under this Amendment the interests of the children appear to be ignored. And when a judge is to do this and when he is not is left entirely to his discretion. So one again comes back to discretion.
The fact is that in the Bill there is a consistent scheme. Clauses 2 to 5 constitute a coherent whole, and Clause 5, with its guide-lines, is equally applicable both to orders made under Clause 4 and to orders made under Clause 2 or Clause 3. The Amendment singles out a particular type of order and requires it to be made regardless of the guide-lines. It

865
says nothing about the relationship of such an order to other forms of financial provision. Is a transfer in pursuance of the order to be treated as part of the financial provision made for the transferee, or is the court first to direct the transfer and then apply Clause 5 to the post-transfer situation. No guidance is given, and it is difficult to see what my noble friend intends.
But apart from this, when one thinks of the practical side of it one realises that the court has to take into account every piece of property which has been acquired by either party during what may have been a marriage of thirty years, and then it all has to be valued. It is clear from the Amendment that this includes property which has been acquired and subsequently disposed of. Whether that is to be given credit in the receipts, I do not know. But what ordinary people could write down everything which either of them has acquired during a period of thirty years, let alone value it? I suppose they both would have to engage valuers; and we have not got the Registrars or Masters who could do this work in 40,000 cases a year. Whether gifts or legacies received from a relative would be included or not, one does not know.
I have always wanted to see some form of community of property. That is what most married people arrange for, only they do not do it in a very legal way. They arrange between themselves who is going to pay the rent and who is going to pay the hire-purchase instalments, and how much of whose earnings the other spouse is going to have. Difficulties of this kind about community of property accounted for one of the reasons why Mr. Bishop's Bill really could not be allowed to go through. You cannot have any form of community of property which is limited to the spouses of marriages which break down. Otherwise you would leave the good wife, whose marriage endured until her husband's death, in a worse position than that of a nagging wife whose nagging had caused the marriage to break down. You would really have to alter our laws of intestate succession. You would find, too, that you would have to provide most carefully for the rights of third parties which arise in property transactions. You can only do what is proposed if you apply it to married people
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as a whole. That means that if you are going to have community of property—and if a practicable form can be found I have always been in favour of it—you have to apply it to married people as a whole. But you must remember that you are dealing in that case with virtually the whole of the private wealth of the whole country, because nearly all private wealth is owned by adults who are married.
The Amendment does not deal at all with the rights of third parties. It is silent about legal ownership. It says that possession has to be transferred, though what exactly happens to legal ownership I do not know. And surely it is not right, on the face of it, there being such things as millionairesses (though I do not know that I have myself ever come across one), that if a man marries a millionairess and the marriage ends, whether or not it is his fault, after two or three years, he should be able to walk off with half a million.
The truth is that the Amendment is seeking to introduce community of property by the back door; and it is open to all the objections and difficulties which the Law Commission, who are still considering the question of community of property, have found arises with regard to it. As I think I said on the Second Reading, one of the great difficulties about any scheme of community of property is what is to happen if the partners do not agree. In some American States where there is community of property they answer that by saying that, if the parties do not agree, in a case where the husband has had a good year in his business, and wants to plough the money back in his business and the wife wants the house redecorating and a second car, what the husband says goes. Well, that is not quite the sort of community of property that I have in mind: it seems to me that then you go back to square one.
Under the French system, and again I think in Roman Dutch law, if there is a dispute the parties go to the court. This is not really the best way of having a happy marriage, for the parties to be always going to court. Those systems, however, also allow for contracting out; and, as I understand the position, in France, owing to the practical difficulties which have been found in implementing their community of property, all modern

867
people, as a matter of common form, now contract out at the time they enter the marriage. So the problem needs a very great deal of consideration, and I am afraid that the proposed new subsection, which in effect attempts a form of community of property in saying that the other party shall be left with one half of all the things which either party, or both of them, have acquired at any time during the course of the marriage, is open to all the difficulties which I have suggested. In these circumstances I hope that the Committee would agree that the Amendment should not be accepted.
BARONESS GAITSKELL: I wish to make only one remark about my noble friend Lady Summerskill's argument. As usual, all the arguments made by my noble friend lead one to only one conclusion: that what my noble friend desires can be obtained only in a polygamous society. It is only under polygamy that one can have the discarded wife protected in the way my noble friend would like. I doubt whether she would like polygamy in this country, or whether most of the women in this country would also desire that, even to protect the discarded—and what my noble friend calls the "innocent"—wife.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: With respect, I entirely agree with the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor about the catalogue of difficulties of this Amendment, and I very much hope that the Committee will not accept it. However, there was one thing the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, said that greatly perturbed me; and it is a matter of the broad principle that runs right through this Bill. She said that it is a fundamental defect of this Bill that the type of order that is to be made, the financial provisions and various other matters of this sort, are to be left to the discretion of the court. I suggest to the Committee that this is not a fundamental defect; it is the cardinal merit of this Bill, and it is literally the only way in which these things can be dealt with. It is ludicrous to suppose that one can lay down hard and fast rules—as this Amendment proposes, in a subject matter of this complexity, and with the variety of different circumstances that come to the courts—and suppose that you are going to get justice. You will not get
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it. And if the noble Baroness thinks that is a defect, then I would suggest that her entire approach to this Bill is wholly misguided and really ought to be re-thought out again.
3.56 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: I am very surprised to hear all these denunciations of me for suggesting something which, in my opinion, is based on equity. My noble friend Lady Gaitskell talks about polygamy. Is there polygamy in the Scandinavian countries? Is there polygamy in Norway, Sweden, Finland, France, Italy or Germany? Are all the lawyers there so utterly dumb and stupid that they do not know what they are putting on their Statute Books?
LORD FARINGDON: I wonder whether my noble friend—
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Perhaps the noble Lord will wait until I finish the sentence. Surely these enlightened countries have lawyers who are equally eminent to the noble Lord opposite and my noble and learned friend here. Why is it that they put this provision on the Statute Book in their laws? Are they all stupid? Are they all convinced that this will ruin marriage? Do they have polygamy there? My noble friend on the left said that this could operate only in polygamous countries, though in fact it is operating in so many enlightened European countries. She may say that there may be some polygamy in the United States, but the fact is that this provision is also operating in States in the United States. Are all the lawyers there obtuse, stupid, failing to understand that they are putting on to the Statute Book something which should not be there?
I am very disappointed in my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor when he raises these niggling little legalistic objections, and then charges me with bringing something in by the back door. Does my noble friend think that I am afraid to bring anything in by the front door? I have been forced to do this because the Bill that we should be debating is the Matrimonial Property Bill, which gained a large majority when all this was discussed in the other place and the lawyers spoke and made their contribution on this provision now before your Lordships. And what happened after a long debate in another place? It

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was passed by a large majority. Am I so utterly stupid and blind in trying to get something on the Statute Book that will not work? What nonsense! I say that the situation that we have to-day is based on prejudice, custom, and a failure to recognise that the woman in the home is making a contribution to-day which should be recognised.
LORD FARINGDON: I wonder whether my noble friend could tell us, as she has mentioned a number of places which have this rule, how many of these have a provision for contracting out.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: I should think that probably they all have. Of course, if they want to contract out, they can do so. If we want to do so, we can contract out of a great deal of our legislation. There is other legislation on the Statute Book which give those concerned a right to contract out. I do not object to people contracting out. What is the objection about that? There we have the back door for somebody to go out of the back door if he or she wants to do so. All I am saying—and the noble Lord is strengthening my case—is: let us try what these other countries are trying. To say that everybody arranges soon after marriage to contract out is not true. I should not be so foolish as to come to this House and discuss this question without having had consultations with some of the most eminent lawyers in the country—lawyers who know the law in other countries—who have discussed it with me; and all I am now asking is that we should introduce a provision which has been accepted in so many other countries, and which has benefited the innocent wives we are talking about. I shall not press this Amendment to a Division. There is a Whip on and the chances of my getting a majority are absolutely nil. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clause 5 [Matters to which court is to have regard in deciding what orders to make under ss. 2, 3 and 4]:
On Question, Whether Clause 5 shall be agreed to?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: During the debate on Second Reading, I
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raised a point on Clause 5. The noble and learned Lord was good enough to write to me and say that it was still under consideration, and I understand that an Amendment may be forthcoming at a subsequent stage of the Bill. Will the noble and learned Lord confirm that that is so?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes, that is the position. We are still looking at the matter. I have to consult the Law Commission as to their original draft. I thought the point of the noble Viscount was right. As I said, this matter is still being considered and I hope to produce an Amendment at the Report stage of the Bill.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Clause 6 [Neglect by party to marriage to maintain other party or child of the family]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move Amendment No. 5, which is one of the three Amendments with which I opened.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 38, at beginning insert ("Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (6)(c) and (f) above").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 7 [Duration of certain orders made in favour of party to marriage and effect of remarriage]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 6:
Page 8, line 28, leave out ("any such proceedings") and insert ("proceedings for judicial separation").
The noble and learned Lord said: Clause 7(2) refers in paragraph (a) to "proceedings for divorce or nullity of marriage", and in paragraph (b) to "such proceedings". That obviously refers to proceedings for divorce or nullity of marriage, but paragraph (c) refers to "proceedings for judicial separation". It is not quite clear whether "any such proceedings" in paragraph (d) refers, as it was intended to refer, to the immediately preceding kind of proceedings mentioned in paragraph (c)— namely, judicial separation—or to those referred to in paragraph (a). Therefore,

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the purpose of this drafting Amendment is to prevent any possible ambiguity. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 8 [Provisions as to powers of court to make orders in favour of children and duration of such orders]:
4.3 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL BARONESS SUMMERSKILL moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 9, line 38, leave out subsection (4).
The noble Baroness said: May I read subsection (4) to the Committee, so that it will be quite clear what I intend to do? It reads:
"(4) An order made by virtue of section 3(2)(a) of this Act or section 6(6)(d) thereof shall, notwithstanding anything in the order, cease to have effect on the death of the person liable to make payments under the order except in relation to any arrears due under the order on the date of such death."
The purpose of my Amendment is to delete that provision. I feel that there is one matter about which we must all be agreed, and that is that dependent children must, wherever possible, continue to be provided for on the death of the payer. There is no reason why orders for the maintenance of children of the family should cease on the death of the payer, which makes it necessary for renewed application to be made under the Inheritance (Family Provision) Act for the child's maintenance during minority or incapacity.
I want to know why it is necessary to frame the Bill in such a way that this should have to be done. I believe that by deleting subsection (4) the children will continue to be maintained without further action, which I should have thought was highly desirable. I should like to know from my noble and learned friend whether this Amendment can be accepted, in order to remove the difficulties of taking further action on the death of a payer.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I gladly respond to my noble friend's request. As your Lordships see, the Amendment is intended to enable an order for unsecured periodical payments in favour of a child to continue in force after the payer's death. The Law Commission had canvassed the possibility of empowering the
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court to order unsecured, as well as secured, periodical payments to last for the life of the payer. But the practical advantages would be so slight and the resulting difficulties so great that the Law Commission concluded that no such power should be given to the courts. The Commission accordingly recommended the preservation of the current rule, that an order for unsecured periodical payments cannot last beyond joint lives. So far as provision for a spouse is concerned, this rule is embodied in Clause 7(2)(a); and subsection (4) of Clause 8, which the Amendment would delete, applies the same rule to orders in favour of children.
I am not quite clear why the noble Baroness distinguishes between children's orders and spouses' orders. But the reality of the situation is that, unless the estate comprises a substantial capital asset, there will be nothing out of which the periodical payments can be made, while, if there is capital, the surviving ex-spouse has her remedy under Section 26 of the 1965 Act, and any dependent child can apply under the Inheritance (Family Provision) Act 1938 for maintenance out of the estate.
There are many occasions on which it is both practicable and fair that periodical payments, whether for a surviving ex-wife or for children, should continue to be made after the husband's death. But an essential feature is his ownership of capital. If that capital exists at the time the order is made the payments can be secured on it. If it comes to light only on his death, then the ex-wife and dependent children already have their remedies.
There are also practical difficulties involved in the Amendment. On the death of the husband there would be nobody liable or authorised to pay until representation to his estate had been taken out. Secondly, a liability to make periodical payments not secured on any particular assets would raise estate duty complications and would lead to delays and difficulties in connection with winding-up the estate. Since the practical advantages, if there are any, would be so slight, it is not worth while creating all these difficulties. It is for those reasons that I respectfully agree with the course which the Law Commission have recommended, and which has been taken in the Bill.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: I thank my noble and learned friend for that explanation. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 8 agreed to.
Clause 9 [Variation, discharge, etc., of orders for financial provision]:
4.9 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR: moved Amendment No. 8:
Page 10, line 23, leave out subsection (5) and insert the following subsection—
("(5) No such order as is mentioned in section 4 of this Act shall be made on an application for the variation of an order made by virtue of the said section 2(1)(a) or (b) or the said section 3(2) (a) or (b), and no order for the payment of a lump sum shall be made on an aplication for the variation of an order made by virtue of the said section 2(1)(a) or (b) or the said section 6(6)(a) or (b).")
The noble and learned Lord said: This is a drafting Amendment. As drafted, Clause 9 (5) prevents the making of an order for the transfer or settlement of property, or the payment of a lump sum, on an application to vary an existing order for periodical payments for a spouse or child, whether made on divorce, nullity or judicial separation or in proceedings instituted on the grounds of wilful neglect to maintain. But there is no reason why the court should not have power to order a lump sum payment in favour of a child on an application to vary an existing order for periodical payments in his favour, since an application for a lump sum payment for a child can be made at any time. Accordingly, the amended version of Clause 9 (5) allows a lump sum order to be made on such an application in favour of a child, but not on an application to vary an order for periodical payments to a spouse. I hope that my noble friend Lady Summerskill will approve of the spirit of the Amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 9.
Page 10, line 42, leave out ("is") and insert ("was")
The noble and learned Lord said: With the Committee's approval, I should like to take Amendments Nos. 9, 10 and 11 together, as they are all linked Amend-
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ments. These linked Amendments cure a drafting defect in Clause 9(7). As drafted, Clause 9(7) requires the court, in exercising its powers to vary, and so on, an existing order, to have regard to
"any change in any of the matters to which the court is required to have regard by section 5 of this Act. …"
Clause 5, however, applies only to orders made under Clauses 2, 3 or 4, and not to an order made under Clause 6, which deals with wilful neglect. Clause 9(7) is equally applicable to an order made under Clause 6, and it is therefore inappropriate to refer to Clause 5, which in such a case would be irrelevant.
As amended, the relevant part of subsection (7) will read:
"… change in any of the matters to which the court was required to have regard when making the order to which the application relates and where the party against whom that order was made…",
and so on. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move Amendment No. 10.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 42, leave out ("by section 5 of this Act") and insert ("when making the order to which the application relates")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move Amendment No. 11.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 43, leave out ("the order in question") and insert ("that order")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 10 to 29 agreed to.
Clause 30 [Extension of s.17 of Married Women's Property Act 1882]:
4.12 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL BARONESS SUMMERSKILL moved Amendment No. 12:
Page 23, line 39, at end insert—
("An application may also be made by a surviving spouse under the said section 17 as amended, against the personal representatives of a deceased spouse within six months from the date on which representation in regard to the deceased spouse is first taken out.")
The noble Baroness said: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my

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name. It seems to me that it is an outstanding anomaly that all the financial remedies under the Matrimonial Causes Act, under the Matrimonial Proceedings and Property Bill before us and under Section 17 of the Married Women's Property Act 1882 cease on the death of one of the parties. The Law Commission considered Section 17 of the Married Women's Property Act 1882, and in paragraph 61 of the Law Commission's Report No. 25 said:
"… on balance"—
and I want to emphasise the words "on balance", because it is quite clear to me that the Law Commission must have been a little uncertain, and that there were those who took one point of view and those who took another—
"we believe that this would be inappropriate"—
that is, that
"the remedy under section 17 should be available to or against personal representatives of a deceased spouse.…"
However, other lawyers believe that there are many good reasons why it should be available. Surely, there was no good reason why Section 23 of the Act of 1882 should have been repealed in 1962, and the recent decision in the case of Thornley in 1969, which is very well known in legal circles, illustrates the hardship which may result from the present position.
May I briefly describe to your Lordships the case of Thornley. In that case the husband and wife married in 1938. They opened a joint account, into which the husband paid £2,000 and the wife between £400 and £500. After various property dealings, they acquired for £5,000 a public-house with 32 acres of agricultural land, which they let. Of this sum, about £4,000 was borrowed and subsequently repaid. The judge found that the wife—and I quote:
"… worked hard and contributed to a considerable extent in the success of that business."
The business was that of a public-house, and I think everyone realises that the right woman behind the counter in one of those places makes an important contribution and that it is a very hard and exhausting job.
From 1958 the husband became very violent when in drink, and in 1962, after twenty-four years of marriage, the wife left him after he tried to strangle her. The judge said:
"This gravely wronged wife, who, after some years of reasonably happy domesticity, endured four years of intermittent fear for her safety, was then ignominiously pensioned off with a weekly pittance of £5, her husband flatly refusing to give any undertaking even as to that".
The husband continued to run the public-house with the help of another woman who came to live with him there and whom he treated with similar violence. In 1966 the husband took his own life after a quarrel with her. I remind your Lordships that this was only four years after the wife had left, and after she had been married for twenty-four years, during which they had built up the business.
His estate was worth about £16,000, of which he left £1,000, the public-house and agricultural land worth about £12,000 to the other woman; an annuity of £416 for life to the wife; and the residue equally between the wife and the other woman. On the facts, it is clear that if the wife had taken proceedings under Section 17 during the husband's lifetime she would have had a good claim to a considerable share, if not a half share, in the public-house and land. This property was not the husband's to give, but because he was dead before the wife applied to the courts all the property was considered his alone, and passed by his will. The widow was left with her £416 a year and such provision as the court could make for her from his estate under the Inheritance (Family Provision) Act. That was this year.
Even where there has been no marital disharmony there is a strong case to be made for an application under Section 17 after the death of one spouse. Suppose the couple engage in a joint enterprise, as in the Thornley case, and they have two adult children who also help in the business. Suppose also that the wife then dies, leaving to the children equally all her interest in the business, which has never been quantified by a court. As matters now stand, the children can claim nothing, and will be entirely at the mercy of the surviving parent, who might, for example, bring another

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wife into the enterprise, to the total exclusion of the children's claim under their mother's will, as well as under our present law of intestacy unless more than £10,000 is involved.
I should like to ask my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor not to give a hasty decision now unless he feels absolutely confident he can do so, but to examine the cases that I have quoted—cases which came before the courts and about which we therefore know all the details. But, of course, there is equal injustice in other cases of which we do not know the details because they have never come before the courts. I would ask him to consider this matter very carefully, particularly so since the Law Commission arrived at their conclusion on balance and perhaps—who knows?—if they had considered it longer or at another time (or even later on with, perhaps, a new Law Commission) they might have come to a different decision.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I should be happy to read the cases to which my noble friend has referred, to consider them and perhaps to return to the subject at the Report stage of the Bill. Meanwhile, if I may, I will explain my present view. It is this. It is quite right to say that the Law Commission considered making Section 17 applicable to claims after the death of a spouse, but they came to the conclusion that it was inappropriate. I am not sure that my noble friend realises that Section 17 does not confer any rights on anybody. It is a form of procedure. Where the form of procedure is used then the court has to apply what I might call matrimonial property law. Section 17 is merely a useful procedure between husband and wife where it is disputed whether some of the property—very often it is wedding presents—belong to both or to the husband or to the wife. It is a procedure which involves a hearing in Chambers at which the parties give their evidence before the Master or Registrar.
The two spouses are necessarily in conflict with each other and it is generally thought to be in the public interest that that kind of thing should be heard in private. That is what this particular procedure is for. But if one of the parties is dead there is no such public interest. Moreover, there is a public interest in
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seeing that disputed claims to a deceased person's property are not litigated behind closed doors. The widow, or widower, and the executors may have the same interest in establishing before the court that the property was not that of the deceased—for example, to avoid estate duty or to defeat a legatee. Indeed, the surviving spouse may himself or herself be the executor, and if he or she is to obtain a judgment from the court it should be obtained openly. If a right to apply under Section 17 is to be given to a surviving spouse against the other spouse's estate, a corresponding right would have to be given to the personal representatives to proceed against the survivor; otherwise cross claims which might exist could not be decided in the same proceeding. The Amendment does not do this.
Therefore, while I sympathise with my noble friend's objects, I think she is rather under the impression that Section 17 in some way confers a right on a spouse whereas it is really only a very convenient procedure where a husband and wife cannot agree as to whether something belongs to one or the other or both. I will read the cases referred to by my noble friend, and if she wishes to raise the matter at Report stage I have no doubt that she will do so.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: I thank my noble and learned friend. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 30 agreed to.
Clause 31 agreed to.
Clause 32 [Order for maintenance of party to marriage made by magistrates' court to cease to have effect on remarriage of that party]:
4.24 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 13:
Page 24, line 29, at end insert ("and shall not be capable of being revived")
The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment resolves a possible doubt which could arise on the construction of the new subsection (4) inserted by Clause 32(1) in Section 7 of the Matrimonial Proceedings (Magistrates' Courts) Act 1960. There is authority for the proposition that where a magistrates' court order has ceased to

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have effect it can nevertheless be revived by the magistrates' court. It is not intended that an order ceasing to have effect on the payee's remarriage should ever be revived and the Amendment makes it clear that there is no power to revive it. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 32, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 33 and 34 agreed to.
Clause 35 [Citation, construction, commencement and extent]:
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL BARONESS SUMMERSKILL moved Amendment No. 14:
Page 25, line 26, leave out ("Matrimonial Proceedings and Property") and insert ("Financial Provision in Matrimonial Proceedings")
The noble Baroness said: I beg to move Amendment No. 14. I move it because I believe that the Short Title is misleading. The Bill is concerned not with matrimonial proceedings but with financial provisions and with children of the family; it is only marginally concerned with property. I agree that if this Bill had been the kind of Bill we anticipated (which of course would be complementary to the Divorce Reform Act) the present Title would be relevant; but at the moment it is not. I say "at the moment" because I anticipate (the Lord Chancellor has mentioned that the Law Commission have other things in their minds) that we shall have another Bill as soon as possible which will strengthen the one before us, and that we shall have one dealing with property and with matrimonial affairs which are related to finance. I feel that the Bill before us has failed, because the House was given a promise which has not been kept. Therefore, this Bill comes before us with this Title—which of course has no relationship to its contents.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: There may always be two views as to what is the right Title for a Bill. I must again make it plain that my noble friend is quite inaccurate in saying that anybody made a promise which has not been kept. I do not want to repeat what I have said previously; but I would remind the Committee that on the Second Reading of the Divorce Reform Bill, I said that
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it was no good whatever relying on the financial provisions of the Bill which the Law Commission were working out to help wives under the Divorce Reform Bill because the Divorce Reform Bill itself, particularly in Clause 6, did everything for them financially which could be done.
I may remind the Committee again that on the Second Reading of the Divorce Reform Bill I produced and had copied and circulated a letter from the Chairman of the Law Commission making this plain. With great respect, I do not think that the alternative Title suggested by my noble friend would be right, or that it is either elegant or accurate. This is not a Bill simply to deal with financial provisions; it also deals with property—
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: And proceedings.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: And proceedings. Clause 20 abolishes the restitution of conjugal rights. That is not concerned with financial provision. Nor are Clauses 17 to 19, which deal with the custody of children. A large part of Part II of the Bill has nothing to do with financial provision, but deals really with property. Clause 28, a most important clause, is in relation to property. Clause 29 deals with possession of the matrimonial home: that again is not financial. Clause 30 deals with Section 17—which again relates to property rights. Clause 33 abolishes the agency of necessity.
I never feel passionately about the question of Title, and I welcome the Committee's views. But I should have thought that "Matrimonial Proceedings and Property Bill" is a more accurate Title, in relation to the content of the Bill, than my noble friend's suggestion, which would make it the "Financial Provision in Matrimonial Proceedings Act". The latter I should have thought, with great respect, would not be an improvement.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: I wish to thank my noble and learned friend. I did not think for one moment that I should succeed in persuading him to change the Title, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.30 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Amendment No. 16 is a drafting Amendment which extends Clause 35(2) so as to permit the court to refer also to the Law Commission's Report advocating the abolition of restitution of conjugal rights, as well as to the Report on financial provisions. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 29, after ("had") insert ("to the Proposal of the Law Commission for the Abolition of the Matrimonial Remedy of Restitution of Conjugal Rights (Law Com. No. 23) and").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I wonder whether I may take the somewhat unusual course of asking the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor to think again about this Amendment. I entirely appreciate that there is merit in the novel suggestion already in this subsection, that the courts and practitioners and the public should look at the Law Commission's paper No. 25, which contains a great deal of explanation about substantive changes in the law of great complexity. Paper No. 23 is a rather different matter, however. All that is done by Clause 20 of this Bill is to abolish the old remedy about the restitution of conjugal rights. The Law Commission's paper setting out the reasoning on this matter contains the following contents. There is an introduction saying when they were asked to look at this; there is a history of the decree of restitution, setting out the present position and the number of petitions under these proceedings in a certain number of years. Then there are the arguments for retaining the remedy and for abolishing it, and a conclusion in which they recommend that it should be abolished. There is also a draft clause, only part of which reappears as Clause 20 because the consequential Amendments were not made.
I cannot think that in construing Clause 20 a court would ever want to look at any of that. There cannot be any question of a court or anybody else construing Clause 20, because there is nothing in it to construe. It merely abolishes an old remedy and there will be nothing further upon which any litigation would take place. There does not seem to be any explanation that anybody would want to have, and I am a little nervous about getting too much of this material referred
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to as a matter of Statute. There are, no doubt, instances when it is quite right, but I think we ought to be rather careful and not go in for a wholesale inclusion of a whole lot of material, particularly when, as I suggest is the case here, it will not help anybody at all to see what the Bill means.
I do not know whether the noble and learned Lord would be good enough to look at this point again; it occurred to me only when I got the Law Commission's paper, but I think there may be something to be said for not having this Amendment. Certainly I should not wish to divide the Committee against it, but if the noble and learned Lord thinks there is anything in what I have said perhaps he will reconsider it, and we can come back to it at the next stage in the Bill if he still wishes to proceed.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I should have liked to proceed with this Amendment now. Obviously it is not a point of vast importance either way, but is it not going to appear to anybody to be rather odd if, in a Bill which everybody knows proceeds from two Reports of the Law Commission, there is a clause which says that you can look at one Report but you cannot look at the other? While I have not at present in mind an obvious conflict on the question of the construction of Clause 20, experience suggests that it is almost impossible to have a clause upon which some lawyers cannot find some point to raise. It would look very odd, and they would say, "I wonder why on earth they abolished the restitution of conjugal rights. I know there is a reference to go and look at which will tell me the answer, but I am not allowed to look at it." It will look odd—will it not?—if you get legislation, notoriously well known to have resulted from two different Reports, in which it is stated that you may look at one Report but, whatever else happens, you cannot look at the other? I should have hoped that the Committee would be prepared to accept the Amendment to-day. If, having considered that, the noble Viscount returns to the attack on Report stage I shall be quite ready to consider it again there.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: May I just say that I should be perfectly content with that course, but I think it

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raises the question of why we are making a statutory reference to these papers. I should have thought, with respect, that what we wanted was to draw to the attention of the courts, the petitioners and the public the detailed explanation of how the major provisions of this Bill were arrived at, and how they are meant to work, and of the cross-references. For that purpose I think that reference to the Law Commission Paper No. 25 is a good idea, certainly as an experiment, and that this is an admirable occasion on which to carry out such an experiment.
But I think it is for the interpretation of the clauses of this Bill, and not for any other purpose; that the references are wanted. After all, if it is for any other purpose; if it is for writing learned treatises or making speeches in your Lordships' House, or anywhere else, one can look at the Law Commission's Papers, all of them. But if we are legislating in this way in order to extend the material which courts may look at, which is what I think we are doing, then I feel that we should be careful. After all, why should they not look at the OFFICIAL REPORT of the debates in this House? There are changes which the noble and learned Lord has moved by way of Amendment to-day. There is no suggestion that those should be looked at by the courts; and of course I am not suggesting that they should. But, according to the noble and learned Lord's argument, they would be just as relevant, I think, as the Law Commission's Paper No. 23.
I take the point that it would be a little strange, but it is strange only if you are embarking on a fairly widespread permission for the courts to look at extraneous material outside the Bill. If, as I believe, we ought to be careful about this and allow them to look only at material which is helpful in interpretation, I still think that the Law Commission's Paper No. 23 is not going to help interpret that clause. But I agree with the noble and learned Lord that perhaps we can consider the matter further before the next stage.
LORD CONESFORD: May I very briefly support my noble friend in this matter? I think that the Amendment which the
noble and learned Lord, the Lord Chancellor, is moving would be
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justified only if it could help the courts in interpreting some clause other than Clause 20. If it could, then I agree that there is something in it; but I cannot see, for the reason given, how any conceivable question could arise that would give a court the least difficulty on Clause 20. So far as Clause 20 is concerned, this is completely unnecessary.
LORD LEATHERLAND: I was about to draw attention to Clause 35(2) because I think that we are probably embarking on an experiment which could be dangerous. I feel that to some extent it ties the hands of the judges. Hitherto we have always regarded it as the duty of the judges to interpret the law in the light of their own individual wisdom, and I do not think it is wise to ask a judge, when interpreting an Act of Parliament, to refer to a document which has not quite the statutory authority that an Act of Parliament has.
I am not a lawyer, but in my young days I spent many years reporting cases in every type of court, from the magistrates' court to the High Court. I have never been a member of another place although I spent many years in my young days as a lobby correspondent there. From time to time I have heard, both in the courts and in another place, that when an Act of Parliament is being interpreted the judge, the magistrate, or whoever he may be, must not have regard to what the promoting Minister said he wanted the Act to mean when he was introducing it. If we are not to take into account what a Minister says when introducing a Bill, and speaking from what is probably a very carefully prepared brief drawn up by the Department in which Bills are promoted, I hardly think it wise for us to say to a judge, "You are not to take the words of this law as they are printed, but you are to interpret them in the light of some other document which you will get out of the library".
I think that this would also tie the hands of a judge when he came to interpret certain provisions in the light of the decisions made in the past by the highest courts in the land. Our legislation should be drafted with such clarity that a judge can interpret it and understand what it means. If we are asking a judge not merely to read the Act of Parliament, upon which pleas are being put before him in his court, but to refer also to some

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semi-official document, I think that we are moving in a very dangerous direction.
LORD LLOYD OF HAMPSTEAD: I had not intended to intervene on this matter because I arrived rather late and did not have the benefit of the opening exposition of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor and heard only a fragment of the subsequent speeches. But in view of the speech of my noble friend Lord Leatherland and of some other comments, I should like to put in a word in favour of this kind of provision. I venture to think that it is a progressive move.
Hitherto, our courts have always been rigidly tied to the literal interpretation of the actual words before them, even though in many cases it might be possible to ascertain what is the real intention of Parliament. In many countries, including the United States, a much freer use has been allowed of legislative material, such as Reports upon which legislation is based. I venture to suggest that this is a peculiar type of legislation, in which documents of this kind can be helpful. Here we have legislation which is based on a learned and well-informed Report of a highly qualified body, the Law Commission, and surely it is desirable that the courts should be given at any rate the opportunity of exploring the background of the provision in order to enable them to interpret the provision in the actual Act.
After all, we must not read too much into this kind of provision. It does not compel the courts to adopt any particular interpretation or construction. All it does is simply to allow the courts to look at this material and to derive from it such help as they may wish to glean from it. The notion that there is anything dangerous in this or that the courts are in some way going to be perverted or corrupted by giving them the benefit of being allowed to look at the Law Commission Report or the relevant portion of it, seems to me to be utterly exaggerated. Therefore, I wish warmly to support this provision, which I think is an interesting and valuable experiment, one which is in line with the general recommendations which the Law Commission have themselves put forward in an elaborate and carefully argued Report, which also pays regard to the practice in statutory interpretation in many other
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countries with wide experience in this kind of matter.
I wish to add only this comment. It is said: if we are going to allow this sort of thing, why do we not allow the courts to refer to the columns of Hansard, to Parliamentary debates? Logically, I suppose that we ought to allow the courts to do that. In practice, this probably would not assist the courts a great deal, certainly not compared with the assistance they would get from a learned Report upon which legislation is based. It may involve the court in an unnecessary amount of irrelevant inquiry. Experience shows that in most countries which allow legislative material to be cited, the tendency is not to rely so much on Parliamentary debate but rather upon actual Reports. Therefore, I would support this provision, which is limited in terms simply to the Report of the Law Commission upon which this Bill is based.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
4.44 p.m.
LORD SILKIN LORD SILKIN moved Amendment No. 17:
Page 25, line 32, leave out subsection (3).
The noble Lord said: Unfortunately, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, is unable to be here this afternoon and he has asked me to deputise for him. I am afraid that I am a very inadequate deputy for the learned Master of the Rolls, but fortunately this is a simple Amendment. It is one that does not require a great deal of explanation, and the noble and learned Lord said a word about it on Second Reading. The short point is that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, is desirous that this Bill should come into operation as soon as it receives the Royal Assent, arid the Amendment contains the operative words for that purpose.
I think that practically everybody in the Committee, with one exception, strongly supports this Bill and would like it to come into operation at the earliest possible moment. I think we all agree that it contains many provisions which are beneficial to wives and children and which will help them very much. If my noble friend really understood this Bill, I am sure that even she would support this Amendment and want it to come into operation at once.

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The noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, said on Second Reading that in the Court of Appeal he was concerned with a considerable number of cases relating to disputes between husband and wife. But he merely receives them when there is an appeal. A great many more are dealt with in the courts of first instance, and there are also a great many cases pending at the present time. I know that there might be difficulty, in dealing with cases that are pending, as to which law should govern them once the Bill comes into operation. But, after all, this is not a unique problem.
The majority of Bills that come before the House come into operation once the Royal Assent is given. The provision for postponing the date of operation is rather exceptional. I do not say that it is unique, but it is somewhat exceptional. Only in certain special cases and for special reasons is the operation of a Bill postponed. In this case, it was stated that the Bill was to be postponed for a reason which, if my noble and learned friend will forgive me, I did not altogether understand. He related this Bill to the Divorce Reform Bill and gave the impression, at any rate to me, that he wanted both Bills to come into effect on the same day, when in fact his case was—and I agree with it—that the two had really nothing to do with one another. The real problem in the Divorce Reform Bill was dealt with in the Bill itself. This is merely a reform of the relationship between husband and wife and children and an improvement in the provision that was made for parties separated. Therefore, I can see no reasons, from that point of view, why it should not come into operation at once.
I can see certain difficulties. On Second Reading, my noble and learned friend referred to rules which might have to be made and some provisions which might not be easily brought into operation at once. Again, I am going to emulate my noble friend Lady Summerskill and not force this Amendment to a Division, but I should be grateful if my noble and learned friend would look at this carefully to see how much of this beneficial measure can be brought into operation at once and how much he feels it is essential should be deferred until January 1, 1971. I cannot think of any matter which
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need be deferred, even the sort of case that he has put forward. If he can give me an assurance that between now and the next stage of the Bill he will be willing to look at it from that angle and see whether, as I hope, the major part of the Bill can be brought into operation at once, I shall be happy to withdraw the Amendment. I beg to move.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: I should have thought that my noble friend, being such an old Parliamentarian, would have thought once or twice before charging me with not knowing what I was talking about on this Bill or on the Divorce Reform Bill. He has admitted that he is in a confused condition. The confusion is in his mind, and not in mine. If he will allow me, I will help to erase that confusion by giving him a clear picture of why he should be moving this Amendment.
I think he will be shocked to learn that I am going to support him wholeheartedly. I see no reason why there should be great thought about this. He said to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor that he could not understand what was in his mind last July when he put this date into the Bill. The date was put into the Bill because, as I have contended again and again, it was agreed that this Bill should be complementary to the Divorce Reform Act, and, therefore, the two dates should synchronise as January 1, 1971, when the Divorce Reform Act should come into operation and at the same time this Bill, which was to give some help to a woman divorced against her will. That is why this date was put into the Bill. But, of course, it is no longer necessary, because this Bill has no relevance to the Divorce Reform Act. If this date was put in for that reason, there is no reason why we should any longer observe it as necessarily the date when this Bill should come into operation.
I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, and with my noble friend Lord Silkin that there is no reason why this Bill should not operate prior to 1971, because it has no relationship to the Divorce Reform Act which comes into operation on January 1, 1971. In fact—and I feel this strongly—the women of this country have been cheated. This is the date on which they were going to have protection. They are not going to

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have the protection; therefore I absolutely agree with my noble friend that there is no longer any need to honour this particular date of January 1, 1971.
LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH: I should like to support this Amendment. There seems to me to be very little reason why this Bill should not take effect before January 1, 1971. In particular, I would draw attention to Part II of the Bill, which has no relationship of any kind to the Divorce Reform Act: it is devoted entirely to tidying up some points of law of an entirely different character. It seems that the rest of this Bill might well take effect before January 1, 1971. It is intended to be an improvement in the law as regards provision for the maintenance of wives or children, and, in so far as it is an improvement, it would be a good thing if it could be brought into operation more quickly.
If this particular Amendment has some defect, then I would respectfully suggest to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor that he should on the next stage of the Bill put down an Amendment in a quite common form, giving power to bring different parts of the Bill into operation at different times. That would give the matter flexibility and enable it to be dealt with as quickly as possible.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The difficulty is to please everybody. I will certainly consider this proposal, and I am inclined to think that the course proposed by my noble friend Lord Douglas of Barloch is the right one. I get many complaints from lawyers that there ought to be a period between the time when a Bill receives the Royal Assent and when the Act comes into force if it is making somewhat complex changes in the law and, in particular, in its procedure and practice. They say: "We do not get enough time to study what you have done, because so much law reform has been going on. We are not interested in the Bills, but in the Acts, and until a Bill gets the Royal Assent we cannot get copies. Then we have to get copies, and with the busy lives that we now lead, overworked as we are, we ought to have a reasonable time in which to study it."
890
The position here is that Part I of the Bill will require extensive amendments to the matrimonial causes rules. The Divorce Reform Act, which comes into force on January 1, 1971, will also require extensive amendments to the matrimonial causes rules. That is why it was thought by the Law Commission that the convenient course would be to bring both into force on that date. I am in this difficulty about rules. The Government, as the House knows, have taken a view about the total number of civil servants that there should be, and it is not everybody who can draft rules.
I have at the moment to draft county court rules for the purposes of the Civil Evidence Act 1968, which I have not yet been able to get done; the matrimonial causes rules for the same purpose; county court rules for the purposes of the amendments made by Part I of the Law of Property Act 1969 in the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954; Supreme Court Rules to prevent process being served or executed on a Sunday, so as to honour the undertaking given to the Joint Committee on the Statute Law (Repeals) Bill; adoption rules for the purpose of enabling the Adopted Children's Register to be kept in a different form; new scales of county court costs to give effect to an anticipated publication (I think to-morrow) of the National Board of Prices and Incomes; a new scale of costs for cases within the extended jurisdiction of the county court conferred by last Session's Administration of Justice Act, and a number of amendments to the county court rules and other provisions in the Administration of Justice Act relating to county court jurisdiction, and so forth. I am in some difficulty, therefore, in getting rules drafted, particularly as it is not very satisfactory to draft rules until one knows the final form of an Act. So in general I should think there may be some difficulty.
This Bill will not receive the Royal Assent, I suppose, before Whitsun or round about then; so there is not a lot in it as between then and January 1, 1971. At the same time, there are some clauses such as Clause 28 which is only declaratory of the law, which would be useful soon. That is why I think the course proposed by my noble friend Lord Douglas of Barloch, of making provision so that an Order can be made bringing some parts of the Bill into force and not

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others, is probably right. I hope, in those circumstances, that my noble friend Lord Silkin will withdraw his Amendment.
LORD SILKIN: I am quite satisfied with that assurance. I know that my noble and learned friend will look at this matter sympathetically as soon as he can, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 35, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 1 [Transitional provisions and savings]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendments Nos. 18 and 19.
Page 28, line 12, leave out ("is") and insert ("was")
Page 28, line 13, leave out ("by section 5 of this Act") and insert ("when making the order to which the application relates")
The noble and learned Lord said: If the Committee will allow me, I should like to move Amendments Nos. 18 and 19 together. They are drafting Amendments corresponding to the drafting Amendments made to Clause 9(7). The reference to Clause 5 is equally inappropriate to subsection (3) of Clause 5 because this operates on variation orders made before the commencement of the Bill. Ex hypothsi such orders must have been made at a time when the court could not have been required by Clause 5 to do anything. I beg to move Amendments Nos. 18 and 19.
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining Schedules agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported, with Amendments.

THE HOVERCRAFT INDUSTRY
5.3 p.m.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL THE EARL OF KINNOULL rose to ask Her Majesty's Government how far the hovercraft industry has progressed in the last five years. The noble Earl said: My Lords, the Question in my name, asking what progress the hovercraft industry has achieved over the past five years, gives me a belated opportunity of congratulating the noble Lord, Lord
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Delacourt-Smith, who I see will be replying, both on his recent appointment to the Government and on the further honour awarded him last week. The Question also gives the House the opportunity to hear the noble Lord reply on a subject for which he has direct Ministerial responsibility—a rather rare luxury nowadays for this House.
The purpose of raising this question to-night on the growth and emergence of what I personally believe to be one of the most important and valuable British inventions since the war is, in the first place, to inquire just how healthy the growth state of the industry has been over the past five years, and, secondly, to see what plans the Government have for the future to ensure that the industry remains strongly competitive in face of increasing foreign activity and is not allowed to sink into a role of selling know-how rather than the hardware.
When one looks back over the past few years at what the industry has achieved in the way of return for the patient investment from both Government and private industry, the answer, I believe, is a good deal more encouraging than many realise. I hope the noble Lord will be able to verify some of the figures I have obtained when I say that over the years the Government investment has been something just over £10 million. Over the past two years, the period of time when sales started to pick up, the industry has been awarded over £32 million worth of orders, £9 million of which have been export orders. This is not, I would suggest, a discouraging picture. I am also informed that it is anticipated that the total world market for hovercraft within the next five-year period could exceed £40 million a year, and that the growth of the British industry could well be running at 20 per cent. a year.
The present role of Government investment runs, I understand, at approximately £3 million a year, and although on first sight this may appear generous, in comparison to Government support in other countries, like France, Japan, and the United States whose industries are a good deal smaller and less advanced, it is not by any means too generous. For, in practice, only a third of this investment goes to advance industry in the

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form of research and development contracts, and to assist the exhaustive trials needed to meet the commercial requirements. The remaining two-thirds is split between running the Joint Services Military Trials Unit at Lee-on-Solent and the N.P.L. unit at Hythe.
My Lords, many people, I am sure, would feel a good deal happier with the size of Government support for the industry if their policy towards the development of military hovercraft were not so excessively stingy. Most of us will remember the tremendous benefit that companies like Boeing, of America, have gained over the years from military aircraft design contracts, and the subsequent spin-off into their civil side. The same pattern would surely follow with the hovercraft development. But either the Government do not accept this view, or they are
deliberately showing a woeful lack of confidence. For since 1968 not only have they cancelled the Army version of the B.H.7 project, causing the break-up of a design team, but they have also brought to a stop the feasibility study of the very important large ocean-going craft. This year, with the launching of the Navy version of the B.H.7, the Government threw caution to the wind and announced with a flourish the order of one craft for the Ministry of Technology. Since then, I am glad to say, two other craft have now been ordered for the Navy—not, one might add, for the British Navy, but for the Iranian Navy. That is not a very encouraging record of support. I hope that the noble Lord will have something to say later about the Naval orders.
One of the most interesting developments in the many flexible uses to which the hovercraft principle can be adapted is the tracked hovercraft, or hover-rail. The House will recall that a company was set up by the N.R.D.C. some years ago and was granted initially £2 million towards developing this form of transport. I should be grateful if the noble Lord could advise us tonight of the progress report on the development, the likely cost up to the evaluation stage, and the estimated time this will take. I should also be grateful if he could tell us just how the Government propose to develop this project beyond the N.R.D.C.'s stage of evaluation. For instance, will British Rail be invited to take on some of this development?
The success of the development of tracked hovercraft must surely open very wide horizons for foreign markets, particularly in America. With the French developing their form of tracked hovercraft, and making what appear to be quite rapid strides, the British development has obviously no room for complacency. Perhaps the noble Lord could tell us whether in fact any interest has been shown
recently by the Americans in this concept, particularly on a co-operation basis. Another use of hovercraft, which was developed four or five years ago, is the hoverbed, the bed for badly burned patients. This important technique was. I understand, installed in a London hospital on a trial basis for a period of nine months, and for almost a year now the clinical appraisal of the concept has lain with the Ministry of Health. Perhaps the noble Lord could tell us how soon now the Ministry of Health will publish their findings and their decision as to whether the concept is acceptable. Could he also guide us as to the probable cost of installing such a bed in a hospital?
Turning to the marine form of hovercraft, perhaps one of the most disturbing features in recent months has been the failure of Hovermarine, one out of the four major hovercraft companies. This company was the leader in the technique of the side wall craft, a concept, one cannot help noticing, which the U.S.A. have chosen for their very large oceangoing project. I do not expect the noble Lord to comment at this stage on the failure of Hovermarine, but I hope he will be able to assure us that efforts are being made on behalf of the industry as a whole—the British industry—to retain the sidewall technique developed by this company.
The marine craft which of course captures the eye most of all is the present queen of the fleet, the SRN4. This craft, the largest commercial hovercraft in the world, despite its setbacks and teething problems, has I believe come through its first year of operations with some credit. The two operators, Hover Lloyd and Seaspeed, have carried no fewer than 380,000 passengers across the Channel this year; and the number is expected to double next year. Four of these craft have now been sold, two to Hover Lloyd and two to Seaspeed, and four more are

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now in the pipeline being built, but, I am sad to learn, with no firm orders. The future success of the craft must now surely rest on its appeal to foreign customers. Its uniqueness at being the only 160-ton craft available will shortly be challenged by the French Navyplane, the N.500, which might be a direct competitor and which I understand is due to be launched next year. The time, therefore, for an important sales push for the N.4 must now seem imminent.
When one is talking of selling this craft to the United States of America and perhaps Canada, one often wonders whether it is good enough to give potential customers a folder of glossy publications and then tell them that if they are further interested they must travel 3,500 miles to Cowes. Is that not like telling the mountain to move to Mohammed? Would it not be better for Mohammed to journey across the Atlantic to the mountain? It is, after all, an oceangoing vehicle. The noble Lord may well say that this is no responsibility of the Government and that it is up to B.H.C. to decide if they wish to take an SRN4 over to North America. B.H.C. may say in turn that the cost is prohibitive. But if such a sales expedition were mounted, and if support was given by all the
various companies involved who would benefit from ultimate sales, could the noble Lord say to-night whether his Ministry would look favourably upon supporting such a project? As the House will know, the development of many techniques of hovercraft is of course carried out at Hythe by the N.P.L. unit. This unit over the years has done splendid work for the industry, in particular of course in developing some of the industrial techniques.
There are two small points I should like to ask the noble Lord about this work. In the first place, what proportion of their effort is devoted to hovercraft research, and what proportion to hydrofoil research; and secondly, is any work being carried out on water jet propulsion, a technique we know that the United States are studying very closely? My final question to the noble Lord on the industry concerns the planning aspect of hoverports. As the noble Lord will know, for some time now the cry for a national and rational airport policy has been heard, and it would seem that the need
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for this has at last been generally accepted. The siting of hoverports as well, although on a much smaller scale, requires in many people's opinion a rational policy.
The need for this was of course foreshadowed in the Hovercraft Act under Section 4, which gave local authorities power, subject to a Board of Trade Order being introduced, to control the siting of hoverports, even where no material change of use of land, under planning eyes, is involved. This question has been raised a number of times before, particularly in regard to the Solent. On each occasion the Government reply has been that the need for giving local authorities this control has not yet been established. I should like to know to-day from the noble Lord what criteria the Board of Trade use in testing whether there is a need or not. Secondly, could the noble Lord say whether any local authority, supported by evidence, have requested that a Board of Trade Order be introduced?
My Lords, the few questions I have put to the noble Lord to-day on the hovercraft industry are really only an introduction to what I hope the noble Lord will treat as an opportunity to review the progress on the industry. Although my Question on the Order Paper looks back over five years, I hope the noble Lord to-night will also be able to look forward a little and say something on the new generation of hovercraft and the potential of this splendid British invention.
5.16 p.m.
LORD NUNBURNHOLME: My Lords, I am intervening in this debate, not because I am an expert on the hovercraft like the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, but because I see such a good potential for this type of vehicle. At present I do not think there is sufficient co-operation between military, naval and commercial interests in the development of the hovercraft industry. This attitude must surely be wrong. I realise that money for defence is a bad smell in some Governmental minds. Still, we must defend our shores. The best way of defence is attack. The hovercraft can land troops anywhere, so it becomes an essential vehicle.
The Americans are, I understand, trying to develop a hovercraft to carry

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4,500 tons commercially. This will most likely take ten to twenty years to develop. We have developed a hovercraft to carry about 40 tons. Commercially there is need for a craft to carry 300 tons. For this there is a tremendous potential and world market. What is needed is an inquiry into what is most needed. Is a water only vehicle wanted? Are amphibious vehicles wanted, or semi-amphibious vehicles that pull up on the shore? Surely a joint committee should be set up between the Services and commerce to investigate our requirements. This committee should have the object of recommending the Government to back the industry.
I believe that £5 million to £7 million should meet the industry's commercial requirements over the next two to three years. Surely this is a small amount to pay to set this potential industry on its feet for what it can return in money to this country. I hope that the Government in their reply can answer some of my points and give the industry fresh hopes.
5.19 p.m.
LORD KINGS NORTON: My Lords, before the noble Lord, Lord Delacourt-Smith, replies, may I add a few words from a different point of view; namely, from the point of view of safety of hovercraft. For the last ten years the worthiness (and I use the term in the sense that "airworthiness" is used in relation to aircraft) of hovercraft has been the responsibility of the Air Registration Board. The Air Registration Board, of which I have the privilege of being Chairman, has taken on this responsibility at the request of Government, but always on a rather informal basis. It is an arrangement which, in its informality and its apparent impermanence, has really been very unsatisfactory. Consequently I hope—and I believe I have some reason to hope—that the noble Lord will be able to say something about a more formal remit of this responsibility to the Air Registration Board. If he is able to say that, I would assure him in advance how very pleased everyone will be who has been concerned with this rather difficult and unusual kind of worthiness.
If, indeed, it becomes the delegated responsibility of the Air Registration Board to deal with the safety of hovercraft, that can be only a stage on the
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way to a different arrangement, because the Government have already foreshadowed their intention of creating a hovercraft Board. That hovercraft Board is, I fear, a little more distant than many of us would hope, and despite what the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, has said about the development of the industry I feel that it has not yet developed to a scale which would warrant the creation of a special body to look after it. But it needs a special body. It is not an aircraft, it is not a boat: it is, in our view, sui generis and must be dealt with in its own particular way.
I should like to see—and I hope the noble Lord, Lord Delacourt-Smith, will be able to comment on this point—this Board coming into existence at an early stage. I wonder whether I may ventilate a thought (without asking the noble Lord to comment on it) which might bring this body into earlier existence than would otherwise be the case. The hovercraft has another kind of overwater craft frequently in competition with it, and that is the hydrofoil boat, which was briefly mentioned by the noble Earl towards the end of his remarks. It is strongly felt in hydrofoil circles that there is a disadvantage in being treated as a boat—which indeed the hydrofoil is—while the hovercraft is dealt with as being something approximating to an aircraft. Possibly it would be of great value to all concerned with high-speed overwater craft if, when the hovercraft Board comes into existence, it is given a rather different name and rather wider responsibilities; namely, for the safety of all high-speed overwater craft. There is more than one kind: there is the hovercraft which progresses on a cushion of air; there is the hydrofoil which progresses on planes or foils, and there is the fast boat which planes on its stem. I feel there is a case for all that kind of craft which travel over the water with their hulls mainly out of it, to be treated in the same sort of way.
In support of this view, which I believe is worth serious consideration, I would refer your Lordships to a most interesting paper on the future of hovercraft by Mr. Stanton Jones, which was published earlier this year in the Journal of the Royal Aeronautical Society, in which he said that when the hovercraft becomes I really large it will not be possible to drive

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it with airscrews; it will have to have water propulsion. It will not be possible to stabilise it as it now is, but it will need hydrofoils to stabilise it. So one sees these two technologies in the end coming together, and I think there is a case for serious consideration to be given to a safety organisation which will look after both, and ultimately look after the combination of the two.
5.25 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, MINISTRY OF TECHNOLOGY (LORD DELACOURT-SMITH): My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, has placed us all in his debt by initiating this debate this afternoon, and I should like to express my appreciation to him of the kind remarks he made about me and, if I may, of the whole manner in which he brought this matter to your Lordships' attention. I do not think I should want to contest the statistics which he gave of the present size of the industry, and I am glad that his raising the matter in this way this afternoon gives me an opportunity to give a comprehensive reply, as he said, upon a matter for which I have personal Ministerial responsibility. I hope that what I may be able to say will coincide with his own remark that the situation is perhaps more encouraging than many people are at present inclined to think.
The hovercraft industry, as your Lordships may recall from the passage of the Hovercraft Act last Session, covers all vehicular applications of the air cushion principle, and can go wider still. The story of this industry can perhaps be seen against the often expressed thought that in the past we in Britain have initiated significant inventions but have allowed their development and their exploitation to pass to other countries. This industry, of course, derives from work undertaken by Sir Christopher Cockerell, which led in the early 1950s to a study contract being placed with Saunders Roe by the then Ministry of Supply. This led in turn in 1958 to the sponsorship of hovercraft by the National Research Development Corporation, I believe following a recommendation made by the noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, to Sir Christopher and the subsequent formation by the N.R.D.C. of a subsidiary, Hovercraft Development Limited, which holds the patents. From these an industry has been
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developing, based upon this British invention. It is a field in which Britain has led, and continues to lead, the world.
The noble Earl directed his attention particularly to the last five years. By 1964, there were four British companies working under licence. Since then, the two largest of these, Westlands and Vickers, have merged their interests to form the British Hovercraft Corporation Limited. The licence of another of the companies was withdrawn, but since 1964 a further six British companies have been granted licences by the N.R.D.C. and five of these companies are still in operation. In addition, a number of smaller companies are emerging with whom discussions on licensing arrangements are taking place.
The first commercial craft was produced in the spring of 1964. This was the British Hovercraft Corporation's SRN.5, with its capacity to carry 18 passengers or two tons of freight, and it can move at up to 60 knots. The characteristics of this craft make it perhaps better suited to military and paramilitary use. Fourteen SRN5s have been produced to date—ten of them have been for export. A year later, in the spring of 1965, the first commercial ferrycraft was launched. This was the SRN6, a development of the SRN5, with a maximum speed of 50 knots and a capacity to carry 38 passengers. This craft, the SRN6, has been demonstrated throughout the world and is on regular commercial operations on the Solent, particularly operating ferry services between the Isle of Wight and the mainland, which have proved extremely popular. Over 30 SRN6s have been built so far, 27 of them being either in service overseas or earmarked for export.
Then we come to the third type of hovercraft in actual operation, which has already been mentioned by the noble Earl and to which I want to make particular reference because it has attracted the most attention. This is the SRN4—the largest hovercraft in the world, with its capacity for 30 cars and 250 passengers and its maximum speed of 65 knots. This is the type which has provided the cross-Channel services during the past year. The noble Earl referred to the problem of transporting large hovercraft like the SRN4 across the Atlantic, say, to the United States of America. We have

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given thought to this matter, as have many others. We do not regard it as an immediate issue. When sales are made to distant markets and if the manufacturers find transportation a problem, our Ministry will certainly be prepared to consider any proposals from them and to discuss the problem with them.
I should like to return a little later to the question of the hovercraft operating the cross-Channel services, and continue with one or two remarks about the manufacturing side of the industry. In addition to the three types which I have mentioned, British industry has five other types of hovercraft available for sale. Perhaps I may mention one, because it is at the very opposite end to the SRN4. This is the Hoverhawk, which is a two-seater manufactured by Hoverair Limited. During the summer the Ministry of Technology funded a trials and demonstration tour of two Hoverhawks on the Eastern seaboard of the United States and in Canada, and to date 60 Hoverhawks have been sold, most of them to overseas buyers.
There is only one country in the world where independent development of hovercraft has been taking place, and that is France. In a number of other countries, notably the United States of America and Japan, some development of hovercraft is taking place under licence—in many cases under a joint licence from the N.R.D.C. and British Hovercraft Corporation. Except in France, every commercial hovercraft sold in the world involves a royalty payment to N.R.D.C.
This is, as has been said and as the facts and dates show, a very new industry, and what is significant is the considerable amount of development work in manufacture which is going on and the number of new varieties of craft which are likely to come into production. I should like to mention two of these because I had the opportunity a few days ago of seeing both of them. The first has been mentioned already in the course of the debate: the BH.7, built by the British Hovercraft Corporation. The first BH.7 has been built under contract with the Ministry of Technology and it was launched only a few days ago. It will have a maximum speed of 65 knots and its civil version will have a capacity for six to eight cars and over 70 passengers. Already, as has been stated by the noble
Earl, two of these
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have been ordered for export. But as far as the one which has been built for the Ministry of Technology is concerned, it will begin trials in the middle of 1970, and the results of these will assist the Royal Navy to determine its hovercraft requirements, either for the BH.7 or for other types.
The other craft which I want to mention is the VT.1 the first hovercraft to be built by Vosper Limited, who have brought to the industry their long experience of lightweight marine structure and high-speed marine transport. The first VT.1 was built in August and it is still undergoing manufacturer's trials. It has
been ordered by Hovertravel Limited for use in the United Kingdom, and discussions are taking place at present to enable an extended period of testing to precede its entry into commercial service. The standard version of this craft will carry 10 cars and up to 148 passengers. Thus in fact the industry is continuing to develop a wide range of sizes and types of hovercraft, virtually all of them with some substantial aid from N.R.D.C. towards their cost.
I should like to refer to the operating problems involved, but before I do so may I turn to other applications of the air cushion principle being tried, especially as the noble Earl referred to one or two of them? These are, of course, a part of the hovercraft industry, although hitherto interest has mainly centred upon the waterborne type of hovercraft. One application is of course, as the noble Earl said, in the field of high-speed land transport, and he asked what the position was there. In 1967 the N.R.D.C. set up a subsidiary company, Tracked Hovercraft Limited, to evaluate, develop and exploit a high-speed ground transport system. The most viable system is likely to be based on the use of air cushions for support and guidance and linear induction motors for propulsion. The new company established itself in Cambridge and has a test site North of the city.
The current programme involves the construction of two experimental vehicles, a three-mile electrified test track and a series of trials and evaluation up to spring, 1971. One of the experimental vehicles runs on wheels and will be used for the independent development of linear motors at what are called in this industry

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"modest" speeds of about 100 miles per hour. The other will be air-cushion supported and used for the development of the linear motors and air-cushion suspension and guidance systems up to a design speed of approximately 300 miles per hour. Both vehicles will be fully instrumented and are expected to start running on the test track by the middle of 1970.
N.R.D.C. consider that hovertrains will have a particularly useful application as high-speed links between cities, and between cities and their airports, not only in the United Kingdom but abroad. Tracked Hovercraft, Limited, are co-operating both with the Ministry of Technology and with the Ministry of Transport on the assessment of the roles of new and existing transport systems on intercity routes. They have established and will maintain contact with Governments and with industrial and commercial concerns in West European countries, in the United States, in Canada and in Japan.
The noble Earl asked about future lines of development. It is, in our view, too early to decide how the further development and operation of hovertrains will be organised in the United Kingdom after completion of the experimental programme which I have described, but these issues will be fully considered by Tracked Hovercraft, Limited, in conjunction with Government Departments and with other interested parties.
The noble Earl asked also about the stage reached with the hoverbed. Clinical trials of this were completed at the Mount Vernon Hospital in August. The Medical Research Council is studying results and will advise the potential customer, the Department of Health and Social Security, upon their outcome. I understand, however, that the results were quite encouraging, and considerable interest has already been generated here and overseas. It will be appreciated that decisions upon the development for production must depend on a complete assessment of all the factors involved, technical, commercial and medical. In connection with cost, I would make the point that the bed itself is not very expensive—something like £5,000 for a unit of two or four beds. The cost of the installation arises in the buildings and
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the units necessary to provide the streams of sterile air.
There are, in addition, a number of other industrial applications that I should like to mention. Platforms with aircushion pads can be used for the movement of stores over relatively smooth surfaces in factories, warehouses, or in the holds of ships. The Central Electricity Generating Board has been promoting examination of the use of the air cushion principle for the transport of heavy loads by road. The significance of the use of this method, of course, is that spreading the load permits the movement of, for example, very heavy loads over bridges which would not otherwise stand the strain. It is calculated that on its first outing the air-cushion equipment commissioned for this purpose effected economies equivalent to half its own development costs. One newly formed firm, Air Cushion Equipment, Limited, is working exclusively on the application of the principle in the field of industry, where, as I have suggested and tried to demonstrate, a number of important possibilities exist. It is, I think, of interest that in its relatively short life the hovercraft industry has stimulated the growth of its own varied and well-informed technical Press, which is fulfilling a valuable function in spreading discussion of the possibilities and the problems of the industry.
I might complete my account of the manufacturing side by reference to the unhappy development in respect of Hovermarine, Limited, which, as the noble Earl said, has recently gone into liquidation. This company accounted for less than one-tenth of the employment in the manufacture of hovercraft but, as has been said by the noble Earl, it was the only company engaged in the development of hovercraft of the sidewall variety. We do not believe that the difficulties which this company experienced were due to any faults in the basic design of their craft, which was the HM.2; they were due rather to managerial and commercial problems, and to difficulties which arose in the engineering and quality control fields.
The Ministry of Technology and the N.R.D.C. were made aware of the financial difficulties of the firm in the middle of February. In response to a request, we received early in May particulars of

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their position, and after examination and discussion the Ministry advised the company on May 27 that it could not furnish the required support. Discussions arose again during the month of October, and two successive proposals were put involving extensive reconstruction of the company with Government financial assistance. We recognised the initiative of the original members of the company and the perseverance of their financial associates, but in the case of either proposal we were not able to accept the degree of involvement of public money or of financial risk which the proposals would have meant. The company is now in the hands of the liquidator, who has invited bids. A number of parties are known to be interested. But Hovermarine, like other companies, operated under licence from the N.R.D.C., and I understand that the N.R.D.C., in accordance with the agreement which it had, has terminated the Hovermarine licences.
The Ministry of Technology and the N.R.D.C. are anxious to see the development of sidewall hovercraft technology in the United Kingdom, and the establishment here of a sound manufacturing base to cater for as much as possible of the world market for sidewall hovercraft. We are prepared and anxious to consider any proposals designed for that purpose which seem to offer the prospect of commercial success.
My Lords, perhaps this might be a suitable point for me to respond to the invitation to indicate the basic approach which we make to the sponsorship of the hovercraft industry and the lines upon which we have made, and hope to continue to make, a contribution, either from the Ministry itself or through N.R.D.C., to the sound development of the hovercraft industry. Our contribution really has three aspects. First, we are giving basic scientific assistance with the fundamental, theoretical and practical problems of hovercraft technology. Most of this work is done in the National Physical Laboratory, which has its own hovercraft unit, but the resources of all our research establishments are drawn on as required.
I was most grateful for, and glad to hear, the tribute which the noble Earl paid to the National Physical Laboratory, and its hovercraft unit in particular, because it has done and is doing most
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valuable work. The noble Earl asked about the extent to which it has done any work on hydrofoils. The National Physical Laboratory has done, and is doing, some work on hydrofoils, but the hovercraft unit is exclusively devoted to hovercraft technology—although I should say that I am informed that on one occasion a test rig was used for the measurement of hydrofoil propellors. But in terms of total National Physical Laboratory effort, that on hovercraft is many times greater than that on hydrofoils.
The noble Lord particularly asked a question about water-jet propulsion. The National Engineering Laboratory and the National Physical Laboratory are both working on this as a possible means of development. The second aspect of our contribution takes the form of research and development contracts placed with firms to develop major components required for hovercraft. Examples of this form of assistance are development contracts for engines, propellors, skirt design and so forth. Our object is really to anticipate the requirements of designers for such major components.
The third form of contribution is made generally by N.D.R.C., and consists of financial support for manufacturers. This, of course, represents investment of public money, and it has to be made on terms that make commercial sense. The noble Earl mentioned a figure of £10 million as the total amount spent by the Ministry of Technology and N.R.D.C. up to a recent date. I can confirm this figure. It takes into account the expenditure on tracked hovercraft. Of the expenditure other than on tracked hovercraft, £7½million has been incurred in the last five years; and, as the noble Earl said, we are spending at present at the rate of between £2 million and £3 million a year. The future rate of investment will of course have to be determined by the practical needs and the prospect of commercial viability of hovercraft projects which are proposed for such assistance.
Perhaps I might now make reference to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton. The growth of the industry and the increasing use of hovercraft, both at home and overseas, emphasises the need to match our technical lead with legislation to regulate construction and operation at home. We have already recognised, I think, that

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this new means of transport is unique. Noble Lords will recall the discussion on the Hovercraft Act and, as foreshadowed by the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton, I have the agreement of my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade, to indicate the Government's intentions in respect of worthiness.
The design, construction and maintenance of hovercraft are at present supervised, as was said by the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton, by the Air Registration Board, who issue a certificate of construction and performance. It is the Government's intention that the Air Registration Board should continue to exercise these functions for the time being, and that formal authority to do so, and to issue certificates of safety, should be conferred on the Board by means of Order in Council under the Hovercraft Act 1968. When the A.R.B. become absorbed into the new Civil Aviation Authority we see no reason why the functions should not be transferred temporarily to that new Authority, on the assumption, of course, that the expert staff will be transferred at the same time. When, however, the growth of the industry justifies it, the Government consider that the certification functions should be entrusted to an independent Hovercraft Authority. The President of the Board of Trade has in mind the appointment of a committee on which the A.R.B. and Lloyd's Register of Shipping would be represented, to make recommendations about the constitution, the terms of reference and the financing of such an independent authority.
I trust that what I have been able to say will give satisfaction to the noble Lord. I take note of the points he made on which, as he said, he would not expect me to comment at this stage. Broadly, under the Hovercraft Act, the Board of Trade are concerned with safety arrangements at hoverports, and they intend to include in a draft Order in Council to be made under the Act, and to be laid before Parliament early next year, a requirement that operators should take adequate safety precautions at hoverports. Control over the use of land for hoverports is dealt with by the local authorities under the provisions of the
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Town and Country Planning Act. I am afraid that I am not in a position to answer all the points which the noble Earl raised in that connection, but I will examine them and will write to him.
My Lords, I am conscious I have spoken for a long time, but the problem in talking about this industry is not what to say but what one must regretfully leave out. I should like to turn to the experience of those who are operating hovercraft commercially. All such operating companies have emerged in the last five-year period to which the noble Earl's question refers, and the longest established of them, Hovertravel, ended the last financial year profitably. In addition to the regular passenger services they have found a new application for hovercraft in seismographic exploration. Indeed, one feature of the industry is the rapidity with which the recognition of the variety of uses to which hovercraft may be put is growing.
I should like to say something particularly about the cross-Channel services
which have been provided by the SRN 4 craft. There are four of these craft operating this service, and it must be borne in mind that this new form of travel is still in an early stage of development. I would remind noble Lords that the SRN6s—the smaller craft which have been operating regularly now over a rather longer period, but still for only three years—have been brought by the combined action of the operators, manufacturers and the A.R.B. to a service reliability exceeding 99 per cent.
All the operators who are operating the SRN4s, especially British Rail and Hover Lloyd, are in our view to be congratulated on their skill and enterprise in beginning these services. They have been attended with considerable maintenance difficulties, and during the winter we are mounting an extensive research programme, particularly on the SRN4s, in full conjunction with the operating companies, aimed at assisting with the problems both of reliability and of maintenance costs.
This is perhaps an appropriate point to refer to one of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Nunburnholme, who spoke particularly of the military application and the part which hovercraft

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could play in the operation of the different Services. Last week I had the opportunity of seeing a little of the Inter-Services Hovercraft Unit at Lee-on-Solent, and there also, of course, extremely valuable operating and practical experience is being gained for the purposes of evaluating future uses, particularly military uses, of hovercraft. It is significant that the Inter-Services Unit has the largest single fleet of hovercraft to be found anywhere in the world.
In concluding, I must again emphasise how much basic work still has to be done to gain a full knowledge of the possibilities of economic and reliable operation, and our research establishments are co-operating and will co-operate fully in this. A number of measures—the design and production of instrumentation systems; the fitting of television cameras which can record what is taking place underneath the hovercraft while it is in motion, and other methods of gaining detailed information about performance—are all being used.
The hovercraft manufacturing and operating industries in this field are at an early stage in their development. We hope and believe that with the proper exercise of commercial judgment and initiative they will become substantial industries. I have described the contribution which the Government and the N.R.D.C. have made, and are prepared to continue to make, on the basis of partnership and co-operation with these industries, provided, of course, that it continues to make commercial sense to do so.
There is naturally a great deal of speculation about the ultimate possibilities of this new method of transport. I think again it was the noble Lord, Lord Nunburnholme, who said that some of the scale of craft which are being talked about now are really unlikely to be developed for a number of years to come; but it is not only, in this industry, a question of the feasibility of hovercraft taking over services already performed by existing forms of transport, it is also, and perhaps even more, a question of hovercraft fulfilling transport tasks which are outside the compass of any existing forms of transport. Transport over rough ground; in the estuaries and
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deltas of great rivers; these may provide some of the fields in which hovercraft will have no competitors. Possibly a lead in this field is given by one recent development—the design and adaptation of hovercraft, either self-propelled or trailers, for use in such difficult areas as the Alaska North Slope. We are, therefore, in the stage with the hovercraft industry in which very many new applications of the air cushion principle, both in transport and in other fields, are rapidly becoming apparent. On the other hand, the tasks which confront us are very practical ones: that of seeking in a steady and organised fashion solutions to immediate problems of manufacture and of operation, and so enabling the industry to establish itself, with the prospect of continuing growth, on viable foundations.
THE EARL OF BESSBOROUGH: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down and concludes his most interesting, encouraging and important speech, I wonder whether I might ask him one question? In speaking about high speed land transport, the 300 miles an hour tracked hovertrain, the noble Lord referred to international co-operation and the interest of other countries. I wonder whether he can tell us whether any international consortium, a European consortium, or a consortium with other countries, is being formed perhaps in order to share research and development costs. This is a new area where the R. and D. costs are extremely high, and, as your Lordships know, in our debate on European technological co-operation there was considerable interest in these new fields in our sharing R. and D. costs with other countries. I wondered whether there was anything in the Government's mind on those lines, particularly, of course, with regard to France.
LORD DELACOURT-SMITH: My Lords, as noble Lords will know, there is a separate development in France. In response to the noble Earl's question, I do not think I can go beyond saying that contacts have been established with Governments and industrial concerns in the countries which I mentioned, which includes the countries of Western Europe.

PUBLICATION OF PROCEEDINGS IN PARLIAMENT
Message from the Commons, to acquaint this House that they have appointed a Committee of three Members to join with the Committee of this House
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on the law of defamation and Parliamentary privilege in relation to the publication of proceedings in Parliament, as desired by this House.
House adjourned at two minutes before six o'clock.