Sitting of 6 November 1969

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PETITION

  Luton Airport
  Mr. Allason:I beg to present a Petition containing 2,094 signatures from my constituency. The Petition reads :
  "To the Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled The Humble Petition of the residents of Aldbury, Flamstead, Gaddesden Row, Great Gaddesden, Little Gaddesden, Northchurch, Patten End, Tring, Wigginton and their neighbourhoods, presented at the Meeting of Protest held at Little Gaddesden in the County of Hertfordshire on 16th October, 1969, Showeth that whereas"
  and here follows a statement of the severe and ever-increasing interference to amenity by day and night by low-flying aircraft from Luton Airport. The petitioners complain that there is no authority controlling the airport in the interests of the community as a whole. The Petition concludes :
  "Wherefore your petitioners pray that your Honourable House will take steps to establish a policy for the direction and control of this inland Airport which at this moment is in a position to do untold harm to the lives and amenities of those represented by this petition. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray."
  To lie upon the Table.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  EMPLOYMENT AND PRODUCTIVITY

    Redundancy Payments Act
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what evidence she has received on the extent of abuse of the Redundancy Payments Act ; and if she will make a statement.
    The Minister of State, Department of Employment and Productivity (Mr. Edmund Dell):I have no evidence that payments are being made under the Act to which the recipients are not entitled.
    Mr. Dalyell: Have there been any prosecutions? Is there any evidence of employers conniving with employees to take undue advantage of the Act?
    Mr. Dell:I know of no prosecutions, but I will check and let my hon. Friend know. As for collusion, we investigate carefully particularly where rebate of redundancy payments is claimed. We have made a special inquiry, which we are repeating, which certainly did not reveal any case of clear abuse of the Act.
    Mr. R. Carr:Can the hon. Gentleman say when the amending legislation which I believe was promised by his predecessor, dealing with one aspect of the abuse of this Act, will be forthcoming?
    Mr. Dell:My predecessor promised amending legislation regarding anomalies. We are at the moment engaged in consultations with the C.B.I., the T.U.C. and other organisations, and in due course amending legislation will be brought forward.
    Mr. Conlan:My hon. Friend may have no evidence of workers receiving redundancy payments to which they are not entitled, but is he aware that employers are often evading their responsibilities under the Act by depriving workers of redundancy payments because of the mergers of companies, in which case the legal responsibility falls?
    Mr. Dell:As my hon. Friend knows, it is possible for anyone who thinks that

    1153
    he has been wrongly deprived of redundancy payments under the Act to make an appeal to the Industrial Tribunal. If my hon. Friend will let me know of any specific cases I will look into them.

    Public Services (Unofficial Strikes)
    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity how many unofficial strikes occurred in the essential public services in the first nine months of 1969 ; how many hours were lost as a result of these strikes ; and what were the comparable figures for the first nine months of the previous four years.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity (Mr. Harold Walker):In the official statistics, stoppages are classified according to the standard industrial classification. I am therefore providing figures for those groups which clearly cover essential services, that is, gas, electricity and water, transport and communication and public administration and defence. Separate figures are available only for stoppages known to have been official. We do not know whether all the remainder were unofficial but the great majority would have fallen within this category. As the reply consists of a table of figures, I will. with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Taylor: Is the Minister aware that the concession of rather massive pay awards after recent unofficial strikes, especially in the public services, not only makes nonsense of the Government's pay policy but also makes it terribly difficult for trade union leaders to persuade their members to operate through constitutional procedures? Will not such damaging strikes continue to occur so long as blackmail and anomaly pay such large

    STOPPAGES OF WORK DUE TO INDUSTRIAL DISPUTES

    (United Kingdom)

    Number of stoppages beginning in

    Number of working days lost in all stoppages in progrees

    Total

    Known to have been official

    Total

    As a result of stoppages know to have been official

    Gas, Electricity and Water

    January-September, 1969*

    …

    …

    21

    —

    10,000

    —

    January-September, 1968

    …

    …

    7

    —

    2,000

    —

    January-September, 1967

    …

    …

    9

    —

    6,000

    —

    January-September, 1966

    …

    …

    6

    1

    2,000

    400

    January-September, 1965

    …

    …

    15

    —

    18,000

    —

    1154
    dividends, and so long as the public services and nationalised industries set such bad examples to the employers?
    Mr. Speaker:I remind hon. Members that supplementary questions should be brief.
    Mr. Walker:I would remind the hon. Gentleman that these settlements were arrived at after collective bargaining. The Government are not necessarily implicated or involved in the negotiations leading to a settlement. If it is suggested that these strikes have resulted from the Government's incomes policy and would not have occurred in the absence of such a policy, I must point out that there is no evidence to support that.
    Mr. R. Carr:Does not the Minister agree that these strikes indicate prima facie the unsatisfactory wage structure and method of collective bargaining in local government and public services? Should not something be done about this, for example, by asking the C.I.R. to look into it?
    Mr. Walker:This has been the subject of debate in the House, and we have agreed that there are unsatisfactory wage structures in both the public and private sectors. There may be a case—but not at the moment—for asking the C.I.R. to look at some of these unsatisfactory wage structures.
    Mr. Heffer:Would not my hon. Friend agree that the workers in these industries think that they have been getting lousy wages and that it is about time they got better ones?
    Mr. Walker:This is obviously their view, but I would remind my hon. Friend that low pay existed long before the incomes policy.
    Following is the information:

    1155

    Transport and Communication

    January-September, 1969*

    …

    …

    352

    2

    519,000

    88,000

    January-September, 1968

    …

    …

    237

    13

    465,000

    40,000

    January-September, 1967

    …

    …

    118

    3

    276,000

    47,000

    January-September, 1966

    …

    …

    123

    4

    958,000

    859,000

    January-September, 1965

    …

    …

    140

    6

    255,000

    16,000

    Public Administration and Defence

    January-September, 1969*

    …

    …

    37

    3

    30,000

    5,000

    January-September, 1968

    …

    …

    35

    —

    25,000

    —

    January-September, 1967

    …

    …

    8

    —

    1,000

    —

    January-September, 1966

    …

    …

    16

    —

    9,000

    —

    January-September, 1965

    …

    …

    25

    —

    10,000

    —

    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity if she will take steps to inquire into the causes and origin of recent unofficial strikes in the public services ; and if she will make a statement.
    Mr. Harold Walker:In the disputes in question, settlements have been reached following negotiations, or, in some cases, the issues are still being dealt with under the agreed procedures.
    In the circumstances I doubt whether any useful purpose would be served by an inquiry of the kind suggested.
    Mr. Taylor:Would the hon. Gentleman agree that the main cause of these unofficial stoppages is that they pay big dividends? Are not the Minister and public authorities undermining the efforts of trade union leaders by conceding to unofficial strikers what they will not concede through genuine procedures?
    Mr. Walker:This has been one of the traditional practices in industrial bargaining over a long period of time. Certainly we are experiencing more unrest and militant action than has been the case. Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that the Government should take action to prevent people striking in this situation?
    Mr. Goodhew:Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the disruption to services on the Northern Line of the Underground railway as a result of an inter-union dispute, which is preventing anyone from repairing faulty rolling-stock? What is being done about this?
    Mr. Walker:The original Question is in general terms but if the hon. Gentleman would like to put down a Question on this dispute no doubt he will receive an answer.

    Lower-Paid Workers
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what new plans she has to ensure that any future development of Prices and Incomes policy improves the position of lower-paid workers.
    The First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity (Mrs. Barbara Castle):I must ask my hon. Friend to await the publication of the White Paper later this year.
    Mr. Hamilton:Does my right hon. Friend not recognise that where the Government have a direct responsibility for some of the lower-paid workers there is some moral obligation on them to ensure that those lower-paid workers get substantial increases that are now being obtained by unofficial action in many instances'? I instance the nurses who cannot strike, will not strike, and who have remained for a long time among the lower-paid workers.
    Mrs. Castle:I am sure that my hon. Friend will not expect me to answer the particular case to which he has referred because it is primarily within the sphere of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services. On the general point I would say that I believe one of the purposes of the prices and incomes policy is to enable us to get the relationship between different pay structures and pay levels on a more socially justifiable basis. To do that we must have a willingness by all concerned in industry to co-operate in such a policy.
    Sir G. Nabarro:Would the right hon. Lady bear in mind when preparing her White Paper that it is no good at all dealing with lower-paid workers in isolation and that all skilled workers and artisans, particularly those who have

    1157
    spent long years in training as apprentices and later as journeymen, expect the full differential to be maintained?
    Mrs. Castle:The hon. Gentleman is merely putting in different words—and I will not take responsibility for his wording—the concept which I was putting in my previous answer.

    Managing Directors (Salaries)
    Mr. Hugh Jenkinsasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity whether she is aware that the average salary of managing directors of companies with a turnover of under £1 million is £5,965 and that of companies over £100 million is £26,523 ; and if she will refer this differential to the National Board for Prices and Incomes.
    Mr. Harold Walker:I have seen the article in the October issue of The Director in which these figures appeared. I do not think that a general reference concerning salaries of managing directors would be of value.
    Mr. Jenkins:Does my hon. Friend appreciate that there is no hope of even a voluntary prices and incomes policy working while some of these arrogant and opinionated directors each take out of industry anything up to 50 times the amount which people working in the industry earn?
    Mr. Walker:The question of salaries at this level in the private sector was considered by the N.B.P.I., in report No. 108 which pointed out that the salaries of these individuals can be judged only in relation to the salary structure in which they are placed.
    Mr. Dudley Smith:Would the hon. Gentleman agree that if we take into account the penal rates of taxation, senior executives, directors and managing directors of British companies are the worst paid in the world?
    Mr. Walker:I have no evidence that would lead me to believe that they are the worst paid in the world.
    Mr. Hugh Jenkinsasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity whether she will report to the House the outcome of five cases of higher boardroom salaries being examined by her Department ; which are the two
    1158
    that have been cleared ; and what action is being taken on the other three.
    Mr. Harold Walker:Following correspondence with the companies, it has now been decided to take no further action in any of these cases. I do not propose to disclose the names of the individual companies concerned.
    Mr. Jenkins:Is not my hon. Friend being unnecessarily soft with the rich and will he not soak them more?
    Mr. Walker: The Chancellor has no doubt got this point in mind. [HON.MEMBERS : "Oh."] I can only repeat that salaries at this level in the private sector were considered by the N.B.P.I. which made recommendations. My right hon. Friend said earlier that she would consider consultations with the T.U.C. and C.B.I. on the practicability of a reference to the Board of salary structures of individual firms.

    Incomes Restraint
    Mr. Barnettasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what is her estimate of the amount by which incomes will be restrained by use of the delaying powers of four months ; and if she will make a statement.
    Mrs. Castle:It is not possible to give a quantitative estimate.
    Mr. Barnett:Would my right hon. Friend accept that the monetary squeeze is likely to hold back incomes more than any delaying power? In these circumstances, would she not agree that it might be better to allow the powers to lapse and to allow a voluntary policy to work?
    Mrs. Castle:We are often told that a voluntary policy could do the job that the prices and incomes legislation has been designed to do. Frankly I cannot see any evidence that without the pressures of public opinion which we are able to marshall through the prices and incomes legislation, there will be any reality in voluntary incomes policy at all.
    The main purpose of the Part II powers is first to enable us to have early warning of price increases as well as pay increases and then to call on the party concerned to hold up those increases while the P.I.B. looks at them in the light of the national

    1159
    interest. This is an essential part of any educative process we are trying to carry through now.
    Mr. Lane:In view of the prevailing confusion, can the right hon. Lady clarify what the Government now regard as the norm for wage and salary increases?
    Mrs. Castle:The White Paper introduced at the time of the last legislation is still current. A new one will be introduced shortly.

    Industrial Disputes
    Mr. Barnettasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity if she will make a statement on the current level of industrial disputes.
    Mrs. Castle:It is provisionally estimated that during the first nine months of this year in industry, including mining and quarrying, there were 2,181 recorded stoppages of work, involving the loss of 3,989,000 working days at the establishments where the disputes occurred.
    Mr. Barnett:Is there not a lesson to be learnt from what happened in the exhibition contracting industry, where an increase was frozen until February, 1970, and eventually allowed but only after there was an enormous number of unofficial stoppages? Is not that a good reason, once again, for allowing the prices and incomes powers to lapse rather than bridge them as is the present plan?
    Mrs. Castle:I cannot accept my hon. Friend's premise that it has been undue delay in settling pay applications that has been the cause of the strikes. Rather the issues go wider and deeper than that. We shall need to consider those increases in a far more serious context.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne:Would the right hon. Lady not agree, referring again to the exhibition contracting industry, that the sole effect of her Ministry's intervention is to increase the percentage increase in average wages which had originally been agreed and which her Department then froze?
    Mrs. Castle:No.
    Sir G. Nabarroasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity
    1160
    how many days have been lost due to strikes and stoppages, unofficial and official, during the 12 months to the end of September, 1969 ; what were the comparable figures for the 12 months ended, respectively, 30th September, 1967, 1965, and 1963 ; and what are the reasons for the progressive loss increases due to these causes.
    Mr. Harold Walker:It is provisionally estimated that in the 12 months to the end of September, 1969, stoppages of work due to industrial disputes resulted in the loss of 4,772,000 workingdays at the establishments where the disputes occurred. The comparable figures for the 12 months ended 30th September, 1967, 1965 and 1963 were 2,106,000, 2,898.000 and 2,083,000, respectively. A major reason for the high level of the latest figure is that the institutions and methods of collective bargaining are not being reformed and extended quickly enough to meet the needs of industrial change.
    Sir G. Nabarro:Do not these figures reveal that stoppages have increased by about 2½, times compared with six years ago? Whereas there are widespread and diverse causes for this calamitous state of affairs, is it not evident that hastening inflation as a result of Government policies and increasing stoppages are marching hand in hand?
    Mr. Walker:It is time right hon. and hon. Members opposite stopped playing around with figures to suit their convenience and to help them make political capital out of industrial unrest. The hon. Gentleman referred to six years ago. Why did not he refer to seven years ago, when, over the same period, the number of days lost was not in the region of 3 million or 4 million but 5½ million? Indeed, one could go back to the first nine months of 1957. During those nine months, 8 million days were lost. The continual use of "phoney" figures both by the hon. Gentleman and by the Leader of the Opposition is doing a tremendous amount of harm.
    Mr. R. Carr:Does not the hon. Gentleman accept, as the Donovan Commission accepted and as the White Paper "In Place of Strife" accepted, that the number of strikes outside the coal mining industry is doing vital damage to the country? Does not he realise that the

    1161
    figure is five times as high as it was in the 1950s?
    Mr. Walker:Yes, Sir. But I repeat that the continued use by the Opposition of selected figures which distort the situation, far from finding a solution to what we all accept is a situation fraught with serious problems, and one in which we cannot afford to be complacent, only exacerbates the situation. It certainly does not help to find a way of diminishing the number of strikes.
    Mr. David Mitchellasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity whether she is satisfied that the Trades Union Congress have complied with the undertakings given to Her Majesty's Government on 18th June, 1968 ; and if she will make a statement.
    Mrs. Castle:The Government welcome the manner in which the T.U.C. General Council has set about using its new powers to attempt to settle or avert serious disputes.
    Mr. Mitchell:I pay tribute to the valiant efforts of Mr. Victor Feather, but would not the right hon. Lady agree that the serious disruption suffered by industry and the public in recent weeks suggests that the T.U.C. is not as effective as her own proposals would have been had they been enacted last summer?
    Mrs. Castle:I am very glad to hear hon. Gentlemen's support for my proposals instead of those of hon. Gentlemen opposite, which would certainly have been totally ineffectual in dealing with the issues we faced, because what we have had in the last few months—and it should be remembered that we are only at the beginning of a great new attempt by the trade union movement to help us solve the problem of inter-union disputes and unconstitutional strikes—has been a series of successes by the T.U.C. We certainly have not had success in every case, but I think that the Port Talbot strike is proof that there the unions as well as the T.U.C. used every possible endeavour to solve the dispute. It showed that the solutions are slightly more difficult than the hon. Gentleman suggests.
    Mr. Moonman:Would not my right hon. Friend agree that it is because they are a new responsibility to the T.U.C. that they are working reasonably well ; and
    1162
    that this is still a far better procedure and practice than would be the case if the party opposite ever got into power and introduced aggressive trade union legislation?
    Mrs. Castle:I certainly think that the proposals of hon. Gentlemen opposite would have been irrelevant to a situation such as, for instance, the Port Talbot dispute, where the union was clearly using its best endeavours, and when Jim Barry, the General Secretary, was howled down as a result of his trying to get the chaps back to work. We have here a deep-rooted problem for which we shall have to have slow and constructive solutions. No pat answers will meet the day.
    Mr. Dudley Smith:Can the right hon. Lady quote some other successes that have been achieved, particularly in the car industry?
    Mrs. Castle:There are a whole number of cases where T.U.C. interventions has been remarkably effective. There was the Joseph Lucas strike last summer. There was the Newspaper Proprietors' Association dispute with the N.G.A. There was the Bemrose dispute. There have been a series of inter-union disputes where the T.U.C. has set up a disputes committee which has made an award which has then been accepted by the parties.

    Motor Industry (Industrial Disputes)
    Sir G. Nabarroasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what steps she now proposes to take to reduce strikes and stoppages in the motor industry ; and what plans she has to appoint a successor to Sir Jack Scamp as troubleshooter.
    Mr. Harold Walker:Following my right hon. Friend's discussions last year with the employers and the unions about the setting up of a National Council for the Motor Industry, they indicated their desire to pursue this matter jointly, and I understand the two sides expect to reach final agreement very shortly. The proposals which the two sides are considering do not envisage that the new Council will have an independent chairman.
    Sir G. Nabarro:Has not the hon. Gentleman perceived that the motor industry, which is probably the most prosperous of all British industries,

    1163
    contributing about £1,000 million to our nation's export trade, is also the most strike-bound of all our industries? What is he doing at Governmental level to try to alleviate the situation?
    Mr. Walker:I do not think that anyone would deny that the motor industry has been undergoing a number of fundamental structural changes in recent years and that this has inevitably brought strains and tensions. I repeat that none of us can afford to be complacent about the level of industrial unrest and the days lost due to strikes. But it is our belief that the National Council for the Motor Industry, when established, will be an important step in the right direction.
    Mr. Howie:Will my hon. Friend consider instituting an inquiry into the wage structure throughout the motor industry? I think he will agree that the confusion and complexity of the wage structure as between different firms not only in the industry but within the same towns is one of the underlying reasons for a good deal of the unrest.
    Mr. Walker:When I referred to the structural changes taking place in industry, that was one of the aspects 1 had in mind. This is only one of many factors in a complex situation. The creation of the National Council which is proposed will enable those within the industry to give more careful consideration to this kind of problem.
    Mr. Dudley Smith:Has the hon. Gentleman seen the salutary warning issued by Lord Stokes in another place yesterday on the deteriorating situation? Do the Government subscribe to the sentiments expressed by Lord Stokes where the question of exports is concerned?
    Mr. Walker:I would not dream of challenging Lord Stokes on the export figures and I repeat that there are no grounds for complacency in this situation. But I think that the next important step is the establishment of the National Council for the industry.

    Unemployment (South-West)
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what are the latest unemployment figures for the South-West ; when
    1164
    they were last at the same level ; and what action she now proposes to take to help employment in the region.
    Mr. Dell: At 13th October, 1969, there were 37,200 persons registered as unemployed in the South-Western Region and the percentage rate of unemployment was 2·8. This rate was last reached in March, 1969, when 38,000 persons were on the registers. My local officers are continuing their efforts to help the unemployed to find suitable work, including the offer of opportunities for training where appropriate. The Government are applying a wide range of measures to stimulate the growth of employment in the South-Western development area and are extending several of these incentives to the Plymouth intermediate area.
    Mr. Digby:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is widely reported that there is a steady deterioration in the employment situation in the South-West? Will he concentrate a little more on that area and a little less on some of the other parts of the country before the situation gets worse?
    Mr. Dell:We have created an intermediate area at Plymouth. We have taken action to increase training opportunities. A considerable number of jobs are in prospect. One point which the hon. Gentleman should bear in mind is that, in that area, in common with many other areas, the number of unfilled vacancies is rising and the contrast between the unemployment figures and the rising number of unfilled vacancies is something we are studying.

    Government Training Centres (Northern Region)
    Mr. Willeyasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity how many places at Government training centres in the Northern Region were unfilled on the last available date ; and what steps are being taken to fill the vacancies.
    Mr. R. W. Elliottasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity if all places in Government training centres in the Northern Region are filled ; if she is satisfied that available courses adequately serve the skill requirements of industries in the region ; and if she will make a statement.
    Mr. Dell: On 13th October, 1969, there were 272 unfilled places. My officers are continuing their efforts to encourage potential trainees to apply for the engineering courses, in which most of the vacancies exist. They are also drawing the attention of employers to the facilities for free sponsored training of their employees at centres in the Northern Region.
    The skill requirements of industries in the region are kept under constant review, and new trades are introduced and others modernised as necessary.
    Mr. Willey:Does my hon. Friend appreciate that it is because of the progress we have made over the last year or two in the provision of these places that the figures are disturbing? Will he consider holding a general review of the courses, see that they are all relevant to the employment opportunities and step up the campaign in order to bring home to people the importance of taking such courses?
    Mr. Dell:I will look at the first point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey). On the second point, I remind him that we are doing a great deal to publicise the availability of the courses. But I have to admit that there are particular difficulties in the Northern Region, where one of the limiting factors is the possibility of employment after courses are taken. There is also the point, to which I drew attention in my main answer, that there are a large number of unfilled places in engineering, which is characteristic of most of the country.
    Mr. Elliott:Will the hon. Gentleman take it as a severe criticism of the Government's policy towards our development area that such a large number of places are not taken up? Will he recognise that our high unemployment figure masks a severe shortage of skill? Will he make every effort to bring to the notice of employers sponsored courses, and speed up the procedure of setting up new courses?
    Mr. Dell:We have done a great deal to assist in the Northern Region where there are a number of industries characterised by declining employment, which
    1166
    makes very important the provision of adequate training courses. One of the best possibilities I can see for an increase in occupancy in Government training centres in the region would be an increase in the amount of sponsored training opportunities, which we are increasingly drawing to the attention of the employers.
    Mr. Conlan:Will my hon. Friend agree that, to a large measure, the number of vacancies available is a consequence of the Government's success in providing places in the development area? Furthermore, does not he agree that perhaps one reason why some of these places are not taken up is the level of payment made to those taking the courses?
    Mr. Dell:I note that latter point. We are continuing to expand the availability of Government training centres. A new sector is opening in Durham on 17th November and another in Darlington in January.

    Equal Pay
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what progress she has made in her discussions with both sides of industry relating to equal pay for women ; and if she will make a statement.
    Mrs. Castle:I have made a number of proposals to the C.B.I., the T.U.C. and others for the detailed content of a Bill on equal pay. These are at present being studied by those concerned. I hope to have their reactions during the course of this month.
    Mrs. Short:If my right hon. Friend is concerned about equality for our sex, as I am sure she is, would not she agree that the introduction of the earnings-related pensions proposals in 1972 gives added impetus for bringing forward the date for equal pay before 1976?
    Mrs. Castle:One of the subjects for consultation is, of course, the period when the Bill shall become fully effective. As my hon. Friends knows, we are proposing that discrimination against women in rates of pay shall be made illegal by the end of 1975. Within that period, however, there is nothing to prevent negotiations proceeding for progress towards equal pay.
    Mrs.Ewing:As there is general agreement in politics and industry that discrimination against women should end, is the right hon. lady's mind open to the possibility of phasing in complete equal pay before 1975?
    Mrs. Castle:I can only tell the hon. Lady that I am under contrary pressure from industry, which is anxious lest the rate of advance in particular industries may be too fast. The Government have considered that point of view and the contrary point of view which is held by the hon. Lady, my hon. Friend, the T.U.C. and others ; which is that we should advance more quickly. We feel, however, that the date that we have fixed strikes a fair balance between the two considerations.

    Traffic Wardens (Pay)
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity if she is satisfied with the recent salary increase for traffic wardens ; and if she will make a statement.
    Mr. Harold Walker:Yes. Traffic wardens benefited from the increase awarded from 1st August, 1969, to local authority administrative, professional, technical and clerical staff generally. In the Metropolitan Police District, additional grades were introduced at the same time, largely to relieve police officers of supervisory duties.
    Mrs. Short:Does my hon. Friend consider that to raise traffic wardens' salaries to a maximum of £2,000 a year is socially justifiable, to use one of my right hon. Friend's phrases, when one considers, for example, the teachers' pay claim?
    Mr. Walker:I remind my hon. Friend that this was a negotiated and agreed settlement within the National Joint Council covering these groups.
    Mrs. Knight:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some people would consider it even more important to have more traffic crossing patrol wardens than traffic wardens? Is he doing anything about the shortage of crossing wardens in certain areas?
    Mr. Walker:The hon. Lady may care to put that question to my right hon. Friend the Minister responsible for Transport.

    Wages and Salaries
    Mr. Moonmanasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what is the proportion of the British gross national product which goes to wages and salaries in relation to comparable figures for other industrial countries available to him from international sources ; and on what basis the figures are compiled.
    Mr. Harold Walker:I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the information requested.
    Mr. Moonman:Would my hon. Friend agree that in the past the figures have been striking and that the latest information is likely to prove equally important to managements and trade unions alike? However, in view of the doubts that have been expressed, might he be prepared to institute an inquiry into the way in which the figures are compiled because at least three organisations do not know? I refer to the National Board for Prices and Incomes, the Central Statistical Office and his Department?
    Mr. Walker:I think that only one Department is responsible, and that is the Treasury, which gives a quite detailed breakdown of the figures in the appropriate Blue Book on National Income. However, in view of my hon. Friends remarks, I will look into the matter.
    Following is the information :
    The table below is taken from the latest returns to O.E.C.D. which are based on the definitions described in the O.E.C.D. publication "A Standardised System of National Accounts ".

    Employees income as a percentage of gross national product at factor cost, 1967

    Wages and salaries

    Total compensation of employees*

    United Kingdom

    63·3†

    67·6†

    France

    43·1‡

    58·1

    West Germany

    n.a.

    58·3

    Italy

    n.a.

    53·4

    Japan

    45·1

    47·5

    Netherlands

    47·0

    59·5

    Sweden

    65·5

    71·1

    United States

    58·5

    63·7

    * Comprises wages and salaries, pay and allowances of the Armed Forces and employers' contributions to social security.

    † The corresponding figures for 1968 are 64·1 per cent. and 68·6 per cent.

    ‡ Excluding wages and salaries paid to civilian personnel of military departments.

    Commission for Industrial Relations
    Mr. Danceasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what is the annual cost of the Commission for Industrial Relations.
    Mr. Harold Walker:The estimated cost of the Commission during the current financial year is £290,000.
    Mr. Dance:When will the long-suffering public receive a dividend from this useless and very expensive Government organisation?
    Mr. Walker:I believe that the hon. Gentleman is very much on his own in suggesting that this is a useless organisation and that the House accepts that in the long run it will prove to represent money well spent.
    Mr. William Price:If the Minister is looking for work to give this Commission, would he consider referring to it the long-standing dispute between the hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Mr. Dance) and his local party members who believe that his views are too reactionary for Bromsgrove?

    Prospective Employees (Literacy)
    Mr. Tilneyasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity whether those who are seeking employment who have not sufficiently mastered the skills of reading and writing and are thereby difficult to place in employment are helped by advice or in any other way by her department to improve their literate and linguistic competence ; whether the initial teaching alphabet is used or recommended to those concerned and to what extent it is used to improve their competence ; and whether she will will make a statement.
    Mr. Dell:Limited competence in reading and writing is not necessarily an obstacle to satisfactory placing in employment. In the course of assisting people to find suitable work, my officers may, where appropriate and as part of their normal advisory work, give information about any available educational facilities. Particular teaching methods are a matter for those providing these facilities.
    Mr. Tilney:Would the Minister examine the good work of the school boards
    1170
    of America, which have shown that the teaching of reading and writing to the illiterate can very much help the unemployment situation in certain areas? Will he also find out from his right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence the results of our army school preliminary education?
    Mr. Dell:I an grateful to the hon. Gentlemen for that suggestion and I will look into the matter.

    Industrial Training Act
    Mr. Hastingsasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity whether she is satisfied with the present operation of the Industrial Training Act ; and if she will make a statement.
    Mrs. Castle:In general, the Act is working well. The annual reports of the training boards show that substantial progress is being made. The Central Training Council has given guidance to the boards on important policy issues and continues to study certain outstanding problems.
    Mr. Hastings:Does the right hon. Lady realise that the system as it is operating at present frequently puts a worthless burden on particularly the small companies, whose needs seldom correspond to the whims and fancies of the Government?
    Mrs. Castle:I would not accept that at all. The legislation, which was initiated by a Conservative Administration, has proved a great boon across industry and, of course, we have built extensively on the basis of the Act. The boards are aware of the problems of small firms, and for this reason the number of group training schemes has been increased. The Council has had a special look at the problems of smaller firms.
    Mr. Raphael Tuck:Is it not a fact that there has been a vast and highly beneficial increase in industrial training since Labour took office in 1964? What is my right hon. Friend's forecast for the future in this context?
    Mrs. Castle:My hon. Friend is certainly correct. There has been a massive increase in the numbers under training and I am only too glad to give some information, not only for the benefit of

    1171
    the House but for the enlightenment of the Leader of the Opposition, who only the other day said in Scotland:
    " I can foresee that something like 100,000 men and women will need to be trained every year—trained by industry, by Government and through the educational system."
    He added:
    " That is why I have pledged the next Conservative Government to an unprecedented programme of training…."
    The right hon. Gentleman seems unaware of the fact that there are not 100,000 but 500,000 men and women now under training.
    Mr. R. Carr:Is not the right hon. Lady well aware that my right hon. Friend was referring to a totally different problem, one which has been made abundantly clear in the House? Is she aware that my right hon. Friend was referring to what has been popularly called "adult retraining "—I do not like this difference that appears to be put on training and retraining—and, in referring to what is an entirely different problem, spoke of the urgent need for action and pledged that the next Conservative Government would do far more than the right hon. Lady has done?
    Mrs. Castle:Having read the text of the speech made by the Leader of the Opposition on that occasion, I cannot accept the specialised interpretation which the right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) endeavours to put on it. It was a totally misleading statement and, once again, the Leader of the Opposition used statistics selectively and inaccurately.

    Unemployed School Leavers (Portsmouth)
    Mr. Juddasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what was the total number of unemployed school leavers in the Portsmouth area in September, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968 and 1969, respectively.
    Mr. Dell:The numbers of unemployed school leavers in the Portsmouth travelto-work area on the specified dates were 111, 125, 66, 107, 142 and 99.
    Mr. Judd:I thank my hon. Friend for that encouraging reply. Would he agree that the contraction of the Naval Dockyard and the rationalisation of employment in the dockyard at Portsmouth
    1172
    means that there is a potential danger of future trouble in the area? Will he keep the matter under close surveillance?
    Mr. Dell:I will certainly keep the situation under close surveillance. However, I draw my hon. Friend's attention to the fact that when one considers the number of vacancies for boys and girls, one sees that the figures were notably up in October of this year compared with October of last year—an example of the contrast to which I referred earlier.

    Minimum Wage Legislation
    Mrs. Ewingasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what proposals she has to introduce a minimum wage legislation.
    Mrs. Castle:The possibility of minimum wage legislation raises complex questions. These are examined in the Report on A National Minimum Wage prepared by an interdepartmental working party and published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office. I would like this report to form the basis of study and informed discussion by all those concerned with the subject, before I decide whether legislation would be the right way of tackling the problem. Women, who constitute the majority of the lowest paid workers, will of course benefit from the proposed legislation on equal pay.
    Mrs. Ewing:Is the right hon. Lady aware that so many wages of men and women in Scotland are so minimum already as to be well below the level of Government social benefits? In this situation, would she not reconsider the urgency of introducing minimum wage legislation? If she does not do so at an early date, will she say why an important principle of the Labour movement has been thrown overboard?
    Mrs. Castle:I am glad to have the hon. Lady's conversion to Socialist doctrine and I look forward to seeing further extensions of her education. I would remind her that in my original reply I stated that the Government had had this study made and this report published so that informed discussion on the problem of achieving a national minimum wage could take place. We will welcome views expressed by either side of industry on

    1173
    how we can achieve an aim which involves matters slightly more complex than the hon. Lady might seem to suggest.

    London Docks (Containerisation)
    Mr. David Mitchellasked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity whether she will make a statement on the latest position regarding containerisation in the London Docks, Thames Estuary and the associated area.
    Mr. Harold Walker: The removal of the T. & G.W.U. ban on the operation of new specialised terminals in London, including No. 39 container terminal at Tilbury, continues to be linked, in the union's view, with progress on the second stage of the Devlin modernisation programme in the port. The outcome of the key negotiations for the Enclosed Docks depends upon a ballot of its members now being arranged by the union on the employers' offer.
    Mr. Mitchell:Is the Minister aware that this dispute has been going on since March of this year, that over £3 million of investment is lying idle, and that about £2 million of foreign exchange has been lost by it? Does he not think that his Ministry has been somewhat dilatory in dealing with the dispute?
    Mr. Walker:I can tell the hon. Gentleman, who has taken a very keen interest in the case, that what he says is contrary to the truth. We have been continuously involved but, as we have reached a crucial stage when preparations for a ballot are in hand, I hope that hon. Gentlemen will not press me or put me in a position where I might say something that might prejudice the outcome of that ballot.

  NORTHERN IRELAND
  Q 1. Mr. Hector Hughesasked the Prime Minister if, in view of recent events, he will invite the Prime Minister of Eire and the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland to confer with him in London in order to devise a plan for the abolition of the border between those two parts of Ireland and to achieve the unity of Ireland.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson):I have no plans to do so, Sir.
  Mr. Hughes:Is not the time ripe for the Prime Minister to make a constructive effort to eliminate the artificial border which is creating so much trouble in Ireland, a border that was artificially created by Sir Edward Carson and others years ago?
  The Prime Minister:My hon. and learned Friend will have seen in the Downing Street declaration that following a meeting with the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland it was stated that the border is not an issue.
  Sir Knox Cunningham:If the Prime Minister wants to avoid bloodshed, as we all do, will he not take the advice of the hon. and learned Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes)?
  The Prime Minister:I have already given my answer to my hon. and learned Friend. I have always been careful, as has my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, to avoid taking the advice of any extremists.
  Dr. Winstanley:Does not the Prime Minister agree that the plight of Southern Ireland, which is in many ways dependent on decisions taken here although it has no voice in those decisions, is one that should be carefully considered by those who seek total separation for Scotland and Wales?
  The Prime Minister:That is a point going very much beyond this question, but the hon. Gentleman will be aware of the highly important Anglo-Irish trade treaty signed between this Government and the Irish Government three years ago.
  Miss Devlin:I should like to ask my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister[Interruption.]—it may surprise hon. Members that I should address the Prime Minister as "my right hon. Friend ", but in view of the fact that his party will win the next General Election I think that it is advisable. May I ask my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister whether, in view of his reply, he would not consider it of more benefit to the Government and the people of Northern Ireland if, rather than engage in discussions with the Prime Minister of Southern Ireland, this Government were to keep their promise to the people of Northern Ireland, stop backtracking every time the Northern Ireland Government get into

  1175
  difficulties, and implement the Hunt Committee's Report, particularly with regard to the educational requirements of new electors?
  The Prime Minister:I always prefer expressions of friendliness to be based on something warmer than a mere bandwagon element—in which, of course, many other people are joining at the present time—[Interruption.] But, on the all-important question of Northern Ireland, I think that the House will agree—and did so in the debate that we had when we came back after the Summer Recess—that the Government have throughout this very difficult summer and autumn fully carried out all our pledges on the matter of Northern Ireland and, at the same time, have advanced very remarkably what is, I think, the main sentence in the Downing Street declaration—the question of equal rights and non-discrimination, which must be the same in Northern Ireland as in the rest of the United Kingdom.

  DEPARTMENT OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Prime Minister what was the total cost to public funds of his decision to set up a Department of Economic Affairs ; and what is the net reduction in staff resulting from his decision to abolish it.
  The Prime Minister:I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to replies given on 22nd October, 1969.—[Vol. 788, c. 238–9, 262.]
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:Does the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has at last accepted the advice of those of us who suggested that he should abolish this Department indicate that he now accepts that its initiation was one of his own sillier, if less expensive, mistakes?
  The Prime Minister:If the right hon. Gentleman says "less expensive ", I cannot understand why it is that every time we have asked the Opposition what cuts in expenditure they would make to justify their taxation promises this was the only one they could think of, if, on his own admission, the total cost was only £6·75 million. What has happened now is that the work of the D.E.A., which is widely appreciated throughout British industry
  1176
  if not by right hon. Gentlemen opposite, is to continue in a much strengthened form in the Ministry of Technology. Regional matters—and the House gave an unopposed Second Reading to the Bill prepared by the D.E.A. on local employment—are under the aegis of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning.
  Mr. Hooley:Is the Prime Minister aware that hon. Members who welcomed the creation of this Department are now a little uneasy that short-term Treasury considerations may be taking precedence in economic planning over fundamental considerations such as, for example, the level of industrial investment now and in the future?
  The Prime Minister:My hon. Friend need have no such anxieties. The merger of the relevant part of D.E.A. with the Ministry of Technology means that there is now a very powerful industrial Department to see that the basic industrial state of the country is the essential matter in solving our balance of payments problems.

  SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SOCIAL SERVICES (SPEECH)
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenterasked the Prime Minister whether the public speech of the Secretary of State for Social Services about pensions proposals at Lloyd's on 23rd October represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.
  The Prime Minister:Yes, Sir.
  Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that his right hon. Friend on that occasion sneered at occupational pension schemes on the ground that they were simply a means by which employers sought to retain their labour? Does the right hon. Gentleman apply that same principle to the public service schemes which his colleagues administer, and is that why he is treating them so badly?
  The Prime Minister:I do not recall, from my reading of my right hon. Friend's speech, that he sneered in this way. The only sneer in his speech that I can find was a justified sneer against the swindle scheme introduced by the right hon. Gentleman when he was in office.
  Mr. Molloy:Does not my right hon. Friend agree that it comes a bit thick from anyone on the Opposition benches to criticise his right hon. Friend's proposals, bearing in mind that the party opposite wept crocodile tears for the old-age pensioners, introduced a swindle and are now terribly frightened that the humane proposal of my right hon. Friend will make another contribution to my party winning the next General Election?
  The Prime Minister:never fully understand what goes on in the minds of right hon. Gentlemen opposite, but, since this question relates to a speech of my right hon. Friend, it is relevant to my hon. Friend's question that the first sentence which I can see in the speech is this:
  "The pension increase due next month …"
  that is now in force?
  " fully restores the purchasing power of the pension to its October 1967 levels and means that the pension is once again worth in real value 20 per cent. more than what was being drawn before we took office."
  Mr. Dean:Does the Prime Minister realise that the statement by the Secretary of State, and indeed his statement yesterday, created genuine anxieties amongst public service pension schemes and occupational pension schemes? Will he at least assure them that Her Majesty's Government regard themselves as under an obligation to maintain the pension rights of past and present members of public service pension schemes?
  The Prime Minister:These matters were very fully discussed in the interchange which lasted for a full half hour after questions yesterday to my right hon. Friend. Many of them were put in the column-and-a-half question of the Opposition spokesman and were answered in an equally long reply by my right hon. Friend. I understand that there may be some desire for a debate, and I think that is the right way to deal with the matter. If so, this can be discussed through the usual channels.
  Mr. Heath:The Prime Minister must be aware that occupational pension schemes provide about one-third of National Savings, namely, about £800 million a year. The Secretary of State last night stated that, as a result of his present proposals, occupational pension schemes will have to be cut back. This
  1178
  means that voluntary savings will have to be replaced by what is, in effect, taxation, and this is damaging to voluntary savings and to the national approach to them.
  The Prime Minister:I think that at least we all agree about the importance of savings and of the relevance of pension funds to savings. To that extent I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. But it seems from the intervention of my right hon. Friend that there is considerable disagreement between my right hon. Friend and the right hon. Gentleman about what was said last night, or the right hon. Gentleman's interpretation of it. Surely debate is the best way of resolving that question. It can also resolve what, to me, is an. unanswered question, in view of the dissatisfaction of right hon. Gentlemen opposite about what my right hon. Friend stated yesterday—whether they intend to bridge the gap in the way they want by increased Government expenditure, which again is rather a difficult commitment for them to make, or whether they intend that the whole of the burden should fall upon the insurance contributions of those who do not have the opportunity to belong to pension schemes.

  PLANNING OFFICE
  Mr. Sheldonasked the Prime Minister if he will set up a planning office reporting directly to himself.
  The Prime Minister:If my hon. Friend is referring to the recommendations in paragraphs 172–177 of the Fulton Report, responsibility for promoting departmental action in this field rests with the Civil Service Department, which reports to me.
  Mr. Sheldon:Since the long-term economic planning must inevitably conflict with the day-to-day economic decisions of the Treasury, would not my right hon. Friend consider having all this reported directly to himself as one way of resolving that conflict?
  The Prime Minister:This is a question for the Government as a whole, and adequate arrangements are made to ensure it. My hon. Friend will be aware of the transfer of the physical and industrial planning work to the Ministry of

  1179
  Technology. He will also know that N.E.D.O. now comes under the Cabinet Office and reports to me.
  Mr. Ian Lloyd:If the Prime Minister accepts the suggestion, will not he merely be rearranging that match known as "planners versus players "for which the tickets have been so expensive and the consequences for the nation so disastrous?
  The Prime Minister:The planners and the players, on this occasion being on the same side, have managed to achieve, as my right hon. Friend told the House, this year—and my memory does not go back far enough to say whether it has been achieved under right hon. Gentlemen opposite—an increase in the balance of payments and, at the same time, economic growth.
  Mr. George Brown:Is my right hon. Friend aware that my view is that the best way to deal with this would be to bring back the D.E.A.?
  The Prime Minister:I am aware of the views of my right hon. Friend on this question, which have been made public, and, of course, the whole House is aware of the very distinguished contribution which he made to D.E.A., not least to the creation of the I.R.C., which is now universally approved by British industry.
  Mr. Maudling:Have the planners to whom the Prime Minister referred been able to carry out the National Plan?
  The Prime Minister:We have debated that very often in this House. The right hon. Gentleman will know that "Neddy" is having two full-day meetings in December to go into the industrial implications of the document published by the Government. He will also be aware that, as I have said, we are now getting economic growth with a balance of payments surplus, in contradistinction to his £800 million deficit.

  GIBRALTAR
  Mr. Cordleasked the Prime Minister what plans he has to pay an official visit to Gibraltar.
  The Prime Minister:I have no plans to do so in the near future, Sir.
  Mr. Cordle:Does the Prime Minister think that with the change of Foreign Minister in Spain there will be an amelioration of the blockade of Gibraltar?
  The Prime Minister:I think that it would be wrong to speculate on this question. We shall, of course, judge all these matters in the light of developing relations with the Spanish Government, particularly on the question of Gibraltar. The Question referred to a visit to Gibraltar. I would like to make it clear that the pledge given on behalf of Britain to Gibraltar in my public remarks during my most recent visit still stands. The hon. Gentleman may like to know that there have been only three Prime Ministerial visits to Gibraltar since the war, all of them by me—and I did not go in a British frigate supplied by the Spanish Government.

  EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Prime Minister if he will now seek a meeting with Heads of Governments of the European Community prior to their summit meeting.
  The Prime Minister:No, Sir.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne:I accept that the time available before this meeting for a visit in a Spanish frigate to Europe is a bit limited, but would not the Prime Minister agree that if one supports the Government's approach to Europe it might be desirable that the Six should be warned that by arranging an extravagant and hasty statement of the financing of their agricultural policy in order to expedite negotiations with this country they might vitiate the chances of success of those negotiations?
  The Prime Minister:I do not think that it is necessary for Her Majesty's Government to give any warnings to the Six about how they should conduct their affairs in settling the problems which have arisen between themselves—not between them and us—on the agricultural programme. They are well aware of the problem, and it must be for them to decide how they handle it. They will be well aware also that as soon as they

  1181
  are agreeable to negotiations we are ready to take part in them.
  Mr. John Mendelson:While accepting the Prime Minister's view that there is no point in rushing into a summit meeting, may I ask him to bear in mind that one of the essential preconditions of any European co-operation, either in Western Europe or across Europe, is closer cooperation with France? Will my right hon. Friend therefore do his best to make our relations with France as close as possible?
  The Prime Minister:Yes, we have made clear that we want the closest possible relations with the French Government, and we are prepared to do everything in our power to make this possible. Since the question of negotiations must rest on a decision taken by the Six and not by any one country, it would be wrong for us to say that our approach to negotiations should be by approaching one individual country. When the Six are ready we are ready.
  Mr, Grimond:Do the Prime Minister's answers to this Question mean that the position is that we are waiting now for an approach from the Six and that the Government intend to take no initiative in this matter?
  The Prime Minister:We are in touch with the Governments of the Six. Indeed, my right hon. Friend will be meeting the new Foreign Minister of Germany in the very near future. But I do not believe that the success of our application, which I know the right hon. Gentleman has supported for very many years, will be promoted by our knocking on the door and importuning individual members of the Six on this matter. They know where we stand. They know that our application is in. They know the conditions which we set out in the statement of 4th July, 1967. We are ready to deal with them when there is a reply.

PALACE OF WESTMINSTER (SECURITY)
Mr. Lipton:Mr. Speaker, may I ask whether your attention has been drawn to a stunt in which a hireling of Thames Television indulged yesterday intending to demonstrate that it is possible to plant
1182
a bomb under the Palace of Westminster on Guy Fawkes Day?
I do not want to make too heavy weather about it, but I shall be grateful, Mr. Speaker, if, from the point of view of security of the Palace of Westminster and the dignity of the Houses of Parliament, you will cause an investigation to be made into the circumstances in which this particular juvenile prank was possible.
Mr. Speaker:As the House can imagine, I have already had a report from the Serjeant at Arms on the incident which took place yesterday. I would point out that the Serjeant at Arms has the task of providing adequate security for Members of the House and the House itself, while allowing reasonable freedom of movement for bona fide visitors and others having business with Members.
This clearly represents a very difficult task unlessa lot of inconvenience is to be caused to British citizens. But I can assure the House that the security arrangements are under continuous review to deal with any situation that may crop up.
This particular incident yesterday, I am given to understand by the Serjeant at Arms, involves an ex-employee of the House. The so-called bomb was, in fact, found at about 1 o'clock and was so obviously a prank that it was not reported.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Heath:Will the Leader of the House kindly state the business of the House for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Fred Peart): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 10TH NOVEMBER.—Second Reading of the General Rate Bill.
Motion on the Restriction of Merger Order.
Consideration of a Ways and Means Resolution relating to Import Deposits.
TUESDAY, 11TH NOVEMBER—Remaining stages of the Expiring Laws Bill.
WEDNESDAY, 12TH NOVEMBER.—Motions on the Parliamentary Constituencies Orders relating to England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

1183
THURSDAY, 13TH NOVEMBER.—Motions on the Army Act, 1955 and the Air Force Act, 1955 (Continuation) Orders.
FRIDAY, 14TH NOVEMBER.—Second Reading of the Transport (London) Amendment Bill.
Motion on the Double Taxation Relief (Finland) Order.
MONDAY, 17TH NOVEMBER.—Second Reading of the Customs (Import Deposits) Bill and of the Police Bill.
Mr. Heath: The Prime Minister himself, during Questions, has emphasised that he would like a debate on the pensions White Paper. This is obviously desirable so that the Secretary of State can explain his statement of last night that small schemes will have to be cut back. Can the right hon. Gentleman say when this debate will take place?
Mr. Peart:In view of the exchanges across the Floor today, I think there is a general desire on the part of both leaders to have a debate on this subject. Of course, I will look into this. I cannot give a precise date, but through the usual channels we can have talks.
Mr. Spriggs:Has my right hon. Friend seen Motion No. 15, about profit through crime?
[That this House deplores the fact that criminals or the wives of criminals should benefit financially from the publication of their life stories from newspapers or magazines.]
Will he give the House an early opportunity of debating this matter?
Mr. Pearl:I have seen the Motion, but I cannot find time next week. I am sorry.
Mr. Grimond:Will the right hon. Gentleman look at the position of the Secretary of State for Scotland in relation to Questions? For instance, he comes to the Box once before Christmas, while the Secretary of State for Social Services comes three times. They have comparable responsibilities in a wide field, and I would be grateful if the right hon. Gentleman would see whether the Secretary of State for Scotland could be allowed to answer Questions rather more frequently.
Mr. Peart:I did mention it last week. We will see how it goes for a period. I will give it careful consideration.
Mr. Palmer:As the Report of the Select Committee on Science and Technology on defence research has been in front of the House for some months now, will my right hon. Friend consider giving time for debating this most important report?
Mr. Peart:I agree that it is important, but we have many important reports. This is a matter of finding time. Obviously, we have to find time for important business. I note what my hon. Friend has said, but I cannot say that it will be in next week's business.
Mr. Sandys:Since there are strong rumours that the publication of the Government's new Red Book on murder is a prelude to "bouncing" the House into taking a decision on the future of capital punishment before Christmas, can the Leader of the House give us an assurance that there is no intention of asking the House to take a decision on this important issue before the 1969 crime statistics are available?
Mr. Peart:The right hon. Gentleman, whose views we all know and who quite rightly puts forward a point of view which he has expressed previously, will not expect me to give an answer to that question specifically at this stage.
Mrs. Renée Short:In view of the widespread concern among staff employed in the regional offices of the B.B.C., may I ask my right hon. Friend whether there will be an opportunity for the House to debate the B.B.C.'s proposals for local and regional radio in the near future? We have not yet had a chance to do this.
Mr. Peart:This is an important matter, but I have announced the business for next week and I cannot find time next week. However, I will consider carefully the views which have been expressed.
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why he was not able to give my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) the assurance that the House will not be asked to decide a matter of major importance before the full facts are available?
Mr. Peart: I am dealing with next week's business. I have carefully noted the views expressed, and will consider them, but there is no question of my announcing any "bouncing" of the House next week.
Mr. Rose: In view of the loopholes which have been opened up in the Road Safety Act, 1967, by recent legal decisions, will my right hon. Friend consult his right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport with a view to laying before the House as early as possible a short amending Bill to close up these loopholes?
Mr. Peart: I will have a word about this with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport.
Sir H. Legge-Bourke: Would the right hon. Gentleman indicate to the House how often we shall have an opportunity of putting Questions to the Minister of Technology, in view of the enlarged sphere of influence over which he now presides? May we have an assurance that we shall at least have an opportunity of dealing with the various subjects as often as before?
Mr. Peart: I am aware of this point ; it was raised last week by an hon. Member. I said that this was an experimental period, and that if there are any defects we can make some alterations.
Mr. Ellis: I did not hear all that was said on the last question, and I apologise if what I am about to raise has something to do with it. Will my right hon. Friend do something about our new system for Questions under which, for example, after the Ministry of Transport at Question No. 20, someone else comes in? Some of us are not sure how this will work. Is my right hon. Friend prepared to look at it again if the system does not turn out to be expeditious and in accordance with the wishes of hon. Members?
Mr. Peart:That is precisely what I said in my previous reply.
Mr. Fortescue:In speaking to his right hon. Friend about the possibility of a pensions debate, will the Leader of the House mention the desirability of issuing a simplified version of yesterday's White Paper so that the general public may have some idea of this very complicated
1186
subject, which at present they do not understand?
Mr. Peart:I agree that that is an important matter. I believe that this is to be done.
Winnick:Will the Leader of the House ask his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to make a statement in the House as soon as he has come to a decision about the Greek subject who is held in a British prison and who faces political persecution if he is forced back to Greece?
Mr. Peart:I thought that I might be asked that question. I shall have a word with my right hon. Friend and I shall convey my hon. Friend's views to him.
Scott:Can the House look forward to an early debate on the Report of the Pearson Commission?
Mr. Peart:Not next week.
John Mendelson:Reverting to the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Renee Short) concerning the B.B.C., is my right hon. Friend aware that at a large public meeting in London a fortnight or so ago great concern was expressed, and there is similar feeling in the regions? As one proposal being made is that there should be an independent public inquiry before the Corporation's proposals are implemented, there is urgency in this matter. Will my right hon. Friend allow a debate in the shortest possible time?
Mr. Peart:I am aware of the concern felt, quite rightly, by hon. Members from different parts of the country, not only London, and I realise that there is a problem here. I thought that I gave a sympathetic reply earlier.
Sir G. Nabarro:Does the Leader of the House recall that at the end of July, four months ago, he gave an undertaking in writing that he would publish early in the new Session details of revised and improved travel allowances for Members, and details of secretarial assistance for Members, since when, on the second issue, he has canvassed Members?
As we are now well into the new Session, may we expect a statement from the right hon. Gentleman next week to implement his promise on both those heads?
Mr. Peart:I agree that this is an important matter. I made a statement, I circularised hon. Members, and I have had a good response from them on this issue. I cannot say precisely when I shall be able to make a statement, but I shall try to make it as soon as possible.
Mr. Jennings:Has the Leader of the House any thoughts at all—
Mr. Boyd-Carpenter:No.
Mr. Jennings:My pause at that point was unintentional— about allowing time for a debate on the question of sex education in schools?
Mr. Peart:I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, with his long experience—in education, will have an opportunity on a suitable occasion, but not next week.
Sir T. Beamish:The Leader of the House will have seen Motion No. 13 regretting his failure to inform the House of the arrangements which he has made to ensure availability at the proper time of papers essential to the work of Parliament. Is he aware that great inconvenience is being suffered by the whole House as a result of the dispute? Will he say what steps he is taking to resolve it, and what is the nature of the dispute?
[That this House again calls upan the Leader of the House to make adequate and permanent arrangements to ensure the availability at the proper time of papers essential to the work of Parliament, and regrets his failure to comply with the request, made in Early Day Motion No. 323 of 21st May 1969, to inform the House through Mr. Speaker of the arrangements he has made.]
Mr. Peart:I am aware of that, and I made a statement on Tuesday. I should like to leave it at that at the moment. The situation seems to be a little better.
Mr. David Howell:Has the Leader of the House noticed that at no point between now and Christmas is a Minister answering first on the Civil Service Department and Civil Service Questions? Will he look at this again, in view of the growing importance—we have heard something of it today—of Civil Service Department matters? If there is to be no Minister answering, may we take it that the Prime Minister will answer Questions on the Civil Service Department?
Mr. Peart:The hon. Gentleman will recall what I said earlier about Questions and Ministerial responsibility. I shall look into the matter carefully, and I note what has been said about the Civil Service. Let us see how the present period goes.
Mr. Lane:Will the Leader of the House make a short statement himself next week to clarify precisely what is to be the rôle of the new Deputy Leader of the House?
Mr. Peart:I thought that the Prime Minister had answered a question on that.
Mr. Lubbock:Reverting to the question of the Government's White Paper on the proposed legislation for superannuation, is the Leader of the House aware that we are all receiving many letters from constituents asking us to explain the Government's proposals? The rule in the Vote Office is that one may have only one copy of a White Paper. As an exception, will the Leader of the House give instructions that Members may obtain as many copies of the White Paper as are necessary for them fully to inform their constituents?
Mr. Peart:I shall look into that, if it is for the convenience of hon. Members, and it seems that there is a need for it.

DIVIDEND RESTRAINT
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Diamond):With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I wish to make a statement about dividend restraint.
It is already known that further guidelines on the whole field of prices and incomes policy after 1969 will be set out in a new White Paper. In the meantime, however, the Government consider it desirable to give the earliest possible notice of the decisions which have been reached on dividends policy.
The present 3½ per cent. ceiling scheme for dividends will come to an end when the reserve statutory powers in the 1968 Act expire on 31st December. The Government gladly acknowledge that on no single occasion has it been necessary to use these powers ; and they are confident of co-operation in asking companies to continue to observe the requirements of the scheme in so far as they concern

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recommendations of total dividends which are made public before 31st December. Thereafter, it will remain possible for the Government to require notification of individual dividend increases under Section 12 of Part II of the Prices and Incomes Act, 1966, if the need should arise.
The need for companies to observe moderation when distributing profits will continue. The Government, therefore, reaffirm the general consideration which was set out in the joint statement of intent published in Cmnd. 2639, namely, that they have pledged themselves to use their fiscal powers or other appropriate means to correct any excessive growth in aggregate profits as compared with the growth of total wages and salaries, after allowing for short-term fluctuations.
The Government draw attention also to the ability to refer for examination to the National Board for Prices and Incomes cases in which the growth of profits or dividends appear to be based on price levels made possible by excessive market power.
The specific scheme of dividend restraint introduced in the 1968 Budget was a necessary reinforcement of these more general policies, as a purely short-term measure associated with stringent statutory control of other incomes and prices. But with the end of the special powers over prices and incomes in the 1968 Act, it will be appropriate to revert to the more general policies which can combine restraint in the total of dividend payments with flexibility in individual company situations.
Mr. Alison:Concentrating specifically on the last few words of the right hon. Gentleman's statement, may we have his assurance that he acknowledges that the whole purpose of devaluation was to make exporting not less profitable but more profitable, and, further, that the concept to which he referred, namely, flexibility in individual company situations, is meant to be an encouragement and not a discouragement to companies not only to make more profits in exporting but also to attract further capital by distinctively attractive dividend policies?
Mr. Diamond: As to the second part of that question, I can certainly say that the statement was intended to be read, and I hope will be read, as an encourage-
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ment to all companies to become more and more efficient. One of the methods of increased efficiency may be economies of scale and may involve increase of capital. It is because companies are inhibited and almost prevented from making proper arrangements for future increases of capital that the Government thought it necessary to make this announcement now.
Mr. Barnett: Is it fair to sum up what my right hon. Friend says by saying that legal dividend restraint has been removed? If this is so, may we take it as a trailer to the fact that it is now proposed not to go ahead with the bridging powers to the 1966 Act on prices and incomes, now that we are apparently leaving dividends to control by the D.C.E. and pressure on companies' liquidity?
Mr. Diamond: The statement made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, if that is the statement, to which my hon. Friend refers, certainly still stands. This is not to be read as a trailer in any respect other than to what I hope will be increased efficiency in many companies which could have been unduly restricted if we had continued what was known at all times to be purely a short-term scheme.
Mr. Maudling: The Chief Secretary used the phrase which the Prime Minister used last week about price levels made possible by excessive market power. May I ask a question which seems to be extremely important? We have seen recent examples of the use of the labour market power putting up prices, coal, for example. Do the Government intend to proceed just as stringently against all excessive abuse of market power, in capital or labour?
Mr. Diamond: I am concerned with dealing with restraint of dividends. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to widen the question he will no doubt put down a Question to the First Secretary.
Dr. Winstanley: While giving a general welcome to the statement, may I ask the Chief Secretary whether he will take steps in parallel to achieve an equal flexibility in wages by using the combined Prices and Incomes Board and the Monopolies Commission to eliminate nationally-negotiated wage agreements

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and move towards negotiations at plant and company level?
Mr. Diamond: The hon. Gentleman talks about parallel arrangements. I find it quite sufficient to exercise my responsibilities at the Treasury without exercising responsibilities for all my colleagues at the same time.
Mr. Bidwell: Will my right hon. Friend not agree that there is a vast difference between making profits, which can be ploughed back into the industry concerned, and dividend distribution? If there is any tendency towards an acceleration in dividend distribution following any relaxation in Government measures, would he agree that this is bound to lead to accelerated wage demands and that it is in the national interest that restraint of a voluntary nature should be exercised on all sides?
Mr. Diamond: I recognise that it is in the national interest that restraint should be exercised on all sides. Perhaps I could report—I think that it has already been made clear to the House—that the total aggregate amount of dividend paid during 1968 was less than the figure for 1965 and 1966, less than 103½ per cent. of the figure for 1967. In short, we are below target all the way through.
Mr. Stratton Mills: Would the right hon. Gentleman say what is the position about scrip issues which the Government have recently been seeking to prevent?
Mr. Diamond: The position remains exactly the same until the end of December. If the hon. Gentleman has any particular problem in mind the Treasury has always been willing to try to assist by discussion. We have found at the end of the day that every single company has been able to subscribe to the scheme.
Mr. Peyton: Is the Chief Secretary aware that for obscurity his statement this afternoon rivals those of the Delphic Oracle, by whom it may well have been drafted? Is he aware that it would be very interesting to hear the answer to the question asked by his hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett), whether this presages a very great departure in Government policy?
Mr. Diamond: I have answered that question twice, but I will answer it a third time. I find it sufficiently onerous to exercise my responsibilities as a Treasury Minister without exercising the responsibilities of the whole of the Government. My right hon. Friend the First Secretary would be only too glad to answer the question if the hon. Gentleman puts it to her.
Mr. Hugh Fraser: Surely the Chief Secretary must make his meaning clear? He has not begun to answer the question asked by his hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett). This is meant to be an important question for industrialists, but what he has said is totally obscure. No one knows where he stands. Perhaps he could come to the Box again and tell us whether legal constraint ceases on 30th December?
Secondly, would the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that many people have received dividends this year which, because of the cost of living, have fallen well below what they were last year? Would he bear in mind the remarks of the Chancellor yesterday that investment is falling well below what is needed—and realise that this is largely due to the stupid policy carried out by obscurantists like himself?
Mr. Diamond: I will certainly bear the second part of the question in mind. What the right hon. Gentleman said about investment falling, and the statement by the Chancellor yesterday, is quite inaccurate.
Dealing with the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's question, when he asked me whether this is the end of legal restraint, that was covered precisely in my statement, when I dealt with the extent to which legal powers ceased and the extent to which they continued. The right hon. Gentleman will find it in my statement when he has an opportunity to read HANSARD.
Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd: Is it not a fact that for once the Government are doing something sensible. but are frightened that their supporters will not like it?
Mr. Diamond: The Government are always doing something sensible.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. We must move on.

BILLS PRESENTED
  TRANSPORT (LONDON) AMENDMENT
  Mr. Frederick Mulley supported by Mr. John Diamond. and Mr. Bob Brown presented a Bill to repeal certain provisions of Section 19 of the Transport (London) Act 1969: And the same was read the First time ; and ordered to be read a Second time Tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 11.]
  POLICE
  Mr. Secretary Callaghan supported by Mr. Secretary Ross, Mr. Secretary Thomas and Mrs. Shirley Williams presented a Bill to enable assistance to be given to the Royal Ulster Constabulary by home police forces and empower the Parliament of Northern Ireland to enable assistance to be given to home police forces by the Royal Ulster Constabulary ; to make provision in connection with the giving of assistance to home police forces by the Royal Ulster Constabulary ; to establish a Police Council for the United Kingdom in place of the Police Council for Great Britain ; and to enable certain police pensions regulations to he made with retrospective effect and alter the mode of exercising parliamentary control of the power to make them : And the same was read the First time ; to be read a Second time Tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 13.]
  RENT (CONTROL OF INCREASES)
  Mr. Anthony Greenwood supported by Mrs. Secretary Castle, Mr. Secretary Ross, Mr. Secretary Thomas, Mr. Denis Howell, Mr. Reginald Freeson, and Mr. Arthur Skeffington presented a Bill to limit increases in rents for local authority houses or payable under regulated tenancies: And the same was read the First time ; to be read a Second time Tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 12.]

AGRICULTURE BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
3.58 p.m.
The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Cledwyn Hughes): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
This Bill deals with many topics but has a single intention. That intention is the reform, in certain important fields, of the structure within which the agricultural industry produces and markets its goods. It is not generally directed to particular problems in the short term. It is, for the most part, a longer-term reforming Measure. In the Bill we look to the 1970s and put forward practical solutions which are based on detailed study. These are necessary reforms, and I believe that the House should welcome them.
These are the broad intentions of the Bill. First, I will deal with the framework of investment. We intend to make changes in the framework within which capital is invested in the industry. When I became Minister, 18 months ago, I gave my particular attention to the grants which the Government make for capital improvement in agriculture. The agricultural industry competes for resources with other parts of the economy. It is essential that those resources should be used to the best advantage. Any scheme or schemes must make sense for the 1970s and not simply be continued because they were useful in the past.
I called for a review of the existing scheme of capital grant for agriculture. There were 11 schemes. That is too many. Many of them had different conditions. That is too complex and makes administration unnecessarily difficult and expensive. In the Bill we are taking power to make one simple scheme which will replace the present somewhat outdated and cumbersome system. We do not intend by this streamlining legislation to change the total level of assistance to the industry for capital investment.
We simply intend that the industry should make the best use of the available money and that there should be savings on paperwork and administration. We must have proper care to protect the public from fraud or waste, but some of the conditions of existing grants were far too grandmotherly. The new approach will be more cost-conscious.

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Secondly, there is the framework of production. In the Bill we are implementing our policy for the reorganisation of smallholdings. The last major legislation which dealt with local authority smallholdings was the Agriculture Act of 1947. We need now to help this sector of agriculture to make some changes. In framing our proposals we have had the very great benefit of the reports of the committee chaired by Professor Wise. We believe that smallholdings will play an even more useful part, particularly for new entrants to the farming industry, if they are reorganised to form more viable units. That is why the Bill would require each authority to make a comprehensive review of its smallholdings and to submit to Ministers its plan for reorganisation.
Thirdly, there is the framework of marketing. Here, we propose important changes in the marketing of eggs. I made a background statement on this on 22nd January, as the House will recall. It is well known that there have been great developments in recent years in this sector of the agricultural industry ; we want to see a marketing system which matches the egg industry in its new form. This is not only a question of scale, although it is important that about three-quarters of the laying flock on agricultural holdings is now concentrated on 6 per cent. of those holdings. It is also a question of finding a system which best meets the needs of the consumer. The House will know that we had last year a very full analysis of the egg industry and recommendations on its future pattern from the Reorganisation Commission for Eggs.
We believe that the egg industry is now in a position to take over a greater share of the responsibility for the marketing of its own products. The Bill provides for the egg marketing scheme to be revoked on 31st March, 1971. The British Egg Marketing Board will then be dissolved. Egg marketing, including, if necessary, market support to iron out fluctuations in price, would then be the responsibility of the industry itself. To help the industry through this period the subsidy will not be phased out until three years later. The Government consider that a central authority would still be valuable in the new conditions after the egg marketing scheme is wound up. The
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Bill provides for the new authority and I shall speak later about its functions and financing.
Fourthly, we do not forget that within the framework of investment, production and marketing the industry is, in the final analysis, made up of people. The farm-worker has a fine record of increasing productivity. To keep up and to improve these results, he needs to have the advantages of good training and of being fairly treated. I am very glad that we have in the Bill a Clause which will make possible the new method of financing the Agricultural, Horticultural and Forestry Industry Training Board.
We are also taking powers which will give a worker and his family in a tied cottage six months' possession from the time when he ceases employment, unless the farmer can satisfy the court that certain important conditions are met. We went some way to meet the worker's legitimate concern when we passed Section 33 of the Rent Act, 1965. I believe that we are now drawing a fairer balance between the interests of the worker and his family and the interests of the owner or farmer.
I have set out a number of reasons why this is a good Bill. I should like now to tell the House how the Bill carries out these intentions and what else is covered by the Bill.
Part I of the Bill deals with egg marketing, to which I have referred. The Bill amends the Agriculture Act, 1957, to enable the subsidy to be phased out by 30th March, 1974, and eggs to be removed at that date from the guarantee. I would stress that this is a longer transitional period than was recommended by the Reorganisation Commission, but I attach considerable importance to our decision to keep eggs within the guarantee for this longer period. We can thus make sure that the change is a steady and smooth one, and can review its effects with the industry each year till 1974. This is why I decided to amend and extend the recommendations of the Rowland Wright Commission on this point.
The Bill provides for the revocation of the egg marketing scheme on 31st March, 1971, and the replacement of the board by a new Eggs Authority to be appointed by Ministers. I should like to pay tribute

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to the approach of the board to the practical and operational problems of the transition to free market conditions. The board's attitude has been influenced throughout by considerations of what is best for the future of the industry as a whole. I very much appreciate this approach.
One special problem which will follow the dissolution of the board will be that the arrangements for the equalisation of transport costs will cease. This will place producers in Northern Ireland and the Orkneys at a disadvantage. What we are doing, therefore, is seeking powers in the Bill to make Government contributions towards the cost of sea transport of eggs from those areas to the mainland of Great Britain.
Mr. Anthony Stodart: Could the right hon. Gentleman possibly help us at this early stage? There is a reference to a total figure for the cost of subsidy to Ulster and to Orkney. Could he by any chance discriminate between the two, as to how much each is to get?
Mr. Hughes: No. I cannot do that at this stage. These are matters of continuing discussion with the Government of Northern Ireland, and I think I can do no more than refer the hon. Gentleman to paragraph 67 of the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum on the Bill. I cannot, at this stage, be precise on the question the hon. Gentleman raises, but I think it is a question which can be appropriately raised in Committee on the Bill, when we shall be going into that subject in more detail.
Mr. R. H. Turton: Could the Minister, before he leaves this point, explain why producers in remote areas in England will have to be penalised by their competitors in Northern Ireland receiving subsidy from the Exchequer, while they have to suffer from the full harshness of the market?
Mr. Hughes: The right hon. Gentleman will have read the recommendations of the Rowland Wright Commission on this point. One would wish, of course, to include many more areas than one is including here, if that were believed to be absolutely necessary. Indeed, there is an island called Anglesey in which I am extremely interested, but the short answer
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to the right hon. Gentleman's point is that one has to draw the line somewhere.
In place of the board, the Bill provides for the establishment of the Eggs Authority, which will be available to support the market, if this should be required. It will also be able to undertake research and development, collect market intelligence and submit schemes for quality testing or weight grading of eggs. The Reorganisation Commission recommended that the whole of the authority's expenditure should be financed by levies on the industry. That was the recommendation of the commission Improvements in the marketing of eggs will be in the general interest as well as in the interest of the industry itself. We have, therefore, decided that a Government contribution to the authority would be justified.
We think it right, however, to distinguish between the authority's expediture on market support and advertising from which the industry should derive direct benefit and other expenditure where the benefit derived by the industry may be less immediate. The Bill, therefore. provides power for the Government to contribute to the authority's expenditure other than on market support and advertising. We are thus, in the Bill, going further than my statement of 22nd January last. I am glad that the National Farmers' Union has welcomed this as "a significant improvement ". The remaining expenditure, and the cost of support buying and advertising, will be financed by a levy on the industry, initially by deduction from the egg subsidy payments and eventually by direct collection. The Bill gives the authority full discretion to decide for itself on the most effective and equitable arrangement.
I sum up this part of the Bill as follows. In the egg industry we have a new situation which is fully documented in the report of the Reorganisation Commission. We are here setting up the new marketing structure in two phases. We are bringing the present egg marketing scheme to an end and introducing a basically free marketing system—a system in which consumer demand will be reflected directly back to the producer. It will be for the industry to decide whether to remove short-term fluctuations in the market through support buying. But the machinery will be there with the setting up of the new authority.

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Secondly, and at a later date, we shall have completed the phasing out of the subsidy and eggs will cease to be within guarantee. The Bill does not deal with imports because the necessary powers are already available in the Agriculture and Horticulture Act 1964. But the new marketing system will be buttressed by minimum import prices both for eggs and egg products, which are an integral part of the new arrangements. We are pressing on with discussions with overseas suppliers and will introduce minimum import prices in good time.
Part II of the Bill deals with capital and other grants. I have told the House what we intend here. We provide for the making of a single farm capital grant scheme, to be subject to affirmative Resolution. The new scheme will replace the existing farm and hill land improvement schemes, the field drainage and water supply schemes, and the ploughing, orchard grubbing, scrub clearance and investment grants. It will also incorporate the grants for remodelling works presently made under the amalgamations and boundary adjustments scheme.
The conditions for grant will be considerably simplified. That has always been my intention. The number and variety of tests and the amount of supervision will be reduced. In addition, grants will now be made with the needs of the farm business as a whole in mind, instead of just the benefit of the land. I understand that the N.F.U. extends a considerable welcome to this. This will enable us to help farmers who do not have enough land to meet the present requirement that they must grow half the food for a reasonably-sized livestock unit. This is an important advance. There are many small farmers for whom intensification may well be the best policy.
The powers contained in the Bill will also permit a scheme to provide for a ceiling on grants going to any single farming unit, as a safeguard against disproportionately large demands on public funds from a single source. This, again, is an important safeguard.
Mr. R. J. Maxwell-Hyslop: Can the Minister tell us what a unit is? If an enormous broiler house is registered as a separate private company would it constitute a separate unit? That
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is the sort of abuse that we all want to see avoided.
Mr. Hughes: That is the kind of abuse to which this provision would apply. This matter is within the discretion of the Minister at any given time. This is a point that we shall require to look at in greater detail in Committee.
Mr. John Brewis: Another abuse occurs in the case of a hill farm improvement scheme, where Government money is expended and within a year the farm is bought up and entirely planted with trees, so that all the expenditure is lost.
Mr. Hughes: I know the kind of case that the hon. Member has in mind. This is something that we can look at carefully.
We expect to maintain the present rates of grant for field drainage, for the broad range of works now carried out under the farm and hill land improvement schemes and for remodelling works under the amalgamation scheme. The grants for this wide range of works will now all be on a continuing basis. At the same time, there will be some other adjustments of grant rates. In particular. we have concluded that we should end the 10 per cent. investment grant on tractors and self-propelled harvesters. This is a small grant with limited effect, since this equipment is normally acquired as a necessary part of the business.
The grant has also proved to be both complex and expensive to administer. We think that the funds would be better used to extend the scope of grants under the new scheme. For example, we hope to extend grant to a number of movable items which do the same job as items already aided under the existing farm improvement scheme. We do not want to restrict grant to a fixed machine if a movable machine would be more efficient.
We do not propose to alter the total level of grant funds. But we do want to use them more productively and to have a simpler scheme to deal with them. This is the object of this part of the Bill. We shall be reviewing the scheme from time to time to ensure that these objectives are achieved.
In this part of the Bill we also provide the finance necessary to continue

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the horticulture improvement scheme. We are raising the upper limit on expenditure. This will be welcomed by the horticultural industry. The 1964 Act provided £24 million which could be increased to £27 million. The Bill provides £42 million which may be increased to £47 million—a very substantial increase. This increase is some measure of the response to the new improvement scheme introduced by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House in 1966. The conditions in this scheme will also be simplified. We have deliberately kept the scheme separate from the other capital grants in recognition of the part it has to play in our separate and distinct policy towards horticulture.
We are also making important changes in the measures which we introduced in the Agriculture Act, 1967, to improve farm structure by encouraging the voluntary amalgamation of farms. We shall now be able to approve a wider range of amalgamations, including those which involve land subject to a settlement or trust. We intend to reduce from 40 to 15 years the period for which land amalgamated with grant aid must be kept together in agricultural use.
We have been carefully looking at the way in which this scheme is working. In my visits to various parts of the country I have been investigating the working of the scheme and I have come to the conclusion that this reduction is necessary if we are to make better progress with amalgamations. Our grants for amalgamations were a pioneering step which will almost certainly become of much greater importance in the next decade. The changes which we are now making will make the schemes more attractive. I believe that they will be widely welcomed.
Part III of the Bill deals with smallholdings. It is a real tribute to the Wise Committee that its principal recommendations have been recognised as the right solution and are now included in the Bill.
Many local authorities are already reviewing their smallholdings. The Bill requires them to do so and to submit a plan of reorganisation to Ministers for approval. Smallholdings authorities will. of course, be able to look for financial assistance—as can other landowners—to the farm structure and farm capital grants
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which I have already mentioned. But during the first five years these authorities will be facing a big task of reorganisation.
We are, therefore, proposing supplementary amalgamation grants for certain smallholdings and a preferential rate of grant for improvements. The cumbersome system of annual contributions towards authorities' losses will be brought to an end.
We have also had in mind the need for a clearer and more effective division of responsibility between central and local government. We have tried, therefore, to give authorities who are responsible for running smallholdings a greater degree of autonomy in the day-to-day administration of their holdings. The close relationship between smallholdings policy and national farm policy does make it necessary for me to be able to exercise some supervision over authorities' reorganisation plans, and I will also retain my general reserve powers. But more detailed controls, though no doubt appropriate at the time of the 1947 Act, no longer play a useful part and do not appear in the Bill.
I am sure that the Bill will help smallholdings authorities to provide opportunities more in keeping with what is needed for new entrants wanting to farm independently. We want to be able to be sure that there will be viable holdings which will afford them the prospect of a good living.
I come to Part IV of the Bill, which deals with sales of fertilisers and animal feedingstuffs—a section of considerable interest to some hon. Members. Broadly, this is a measure of consumer protection. We are bringing the law up to date and, if enacted, this will replace the Fertilisers and Feedingstuffs Act 1926. We aim to protect users of fertilisers and feeding-stuffs by ensuring, first, that they are given accurate information to enable them to judge the value of the goods which they are buying and, secondly, that the feedingstuffs are wholesome and free from harmful ingredients.
Since the 1926 Act was passed, the pattern of trade has moved from mainly local production to bulk manufacture of products which are nationally distributed. Materials are far more complex and far more sophisticated than in 1926.

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Farming practice itself has changed. It has been possible to keep pace with many of these developments by means of regulations made under the 1926 Act. But in several respects the basic provisions of the 1926 Act are now outmoded. We seek in Part IV to remedy this situation. At the same time, it will bring the legislation into line with the Trade Descriptions Act and other consumer protection legislation.
The scope of the legislation has been widened to cover all types of fertiliser and feeding stuff used in modern farming, and to amplify the information given to purchasers. Enforcement procedures have been made simpler and more effective. In particular, we introduce a "bypassing" procedure to enable offences to be passed back to the persons concerned—in my view, a very important provision.
All these and many other detailed changes have been thoroughly discussed with the various interests concerned. There is a very wide measure of agreement. Again, the National Farmers' Union have extended a welcome to this section. I believe that this will be a very well worthwhile addition to the work of consumer protection carried out by the present Government.
The object of Parts V and VI of the Bill is to provide the necessary powers to pay grants to river authorities in England and Wales and to local authorities in Scotland—where there are no river authorities—to encourage the extension of flood warning systems to all vulnerable communities and industries. Many river authorities in England and Wales already operate such systems but the severe floods of last summer and autumn revealed inadequacies.
We gave thought to the need for and the method of improving the system. Effective and timely warning of floods can go a long way towards safeguarding life and property. It is right that the Government in these cases should make their contribution. My right hon. Friend and I propose to provide grants in respect of flood warning systems approved and installed from the beginning of this year. Again, this provision will be welcome.
I know that the House has always had an affection for Agriculture (Miscellane-
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ous Provisions) Bills. I have not been able to indulge this fancy in the Title of this Bill. The draftsman has, however, included a part entitled "Miscellaneous Provisions ". This includes the important Clauses on tied cottages and the financing of the Training Board. These are matters in which I know the House is extremely interested.
Clause 98 deals with agricultural tied cottages. In 1965, we included measures in the Rent Act which gave occupiers of tied cottages a considerable measure of protection from eviction. We promised to review these measures and we have done so. We believe that the 1965 Act has worked well in preventing evictions. But a Labour Government must care—I believe that any Government should care—about the farmworker's anxiety and fear of immediate eviction if he should lose his job. We are, therefore, proposing to strengthen Section 33 of the Rent Act 1965, so that an occupier of an agricultural tied cottage will have the assurance that, if necessary, he can remain in his cottage for at least six months after his job has ended and if he should die, his widow will have the same assurance.
The assurance is subject to what we believe to be a proper safeguard for the farmer. If it is not reasonably practicable for him to carry on his business without the cottage, the farmer can apply for earlier possession. But he has to prove his case to the court—this is right —and, if he claims possession on false grounds, the court may subsequently order him to pay compensation to the former occupier.
Clause 100 gives effect to the new proposals for financing the Agricultural, Horticultural and Forestry Industry Training Board. The House will know that the intention is that the costs of the board, in regard to its work in agriculture, should be taken into account in the annual Farm Price Review.
My right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State is in consultation with forestry and other interests about the financing of the board's work for forestry and other activities outside agriculture. Throughout all the controversy which has surrounded this board over the last 12 to 18 months, no responsible organisation has denied the importance of developing training in the agricultural and forestry

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industries. I believe it to be essential. I very much hope that, as these new arrangements are implemented, there will be a new spirit abroad and the board will be able to go ahead with its job in cooperation with the industries which it exists to serve.
Finally, Clause 101 stems from two recommendations in the first Report of the Northumberland Committee on Footand-Mouth Disease. It gives explicit power to make the import of meat and meat products from all sources subject to revocable conditional licences. We also take powers which we should need if we were to put into effect contingency plans for ring vaccination, which we have already discussed. It does not, of course, follow that ring vaccination would be undertaken in any outbreak. That decision would have to be taken at the time.
I confidently commend the Bill to the House as a Measure which makes important improvements in the framework within which the agricultural industry will invest, produce and market its goods in the 1970s and beyond. I believe this to be a good Bill. It is a long Bill, and it will provide us with a good deal of work, but it is important to the industry and I hope that it will command general support.
4.27 p.m.
Mr. J. B. Godber: The Minister introduced his Bill in a most agreeable way and we are grateful to him for his explanation of its provisions, which will be of great help to the House.
I fear that that is about the only agreeable thing which I shall be able to say to him this afternoon, and that before I sit down I may have to say one or two severe things to him. But he will know that they are not meant in any personal sense and that they are more out of sorrow rather than in anger.
May I, first, say a word about an issue of which we read in this morning's Press —the information about farmworkers' pay, which, I think, is generally welcomed on both sides of the House. We are all pleased to see some advance in the position of farmworkers in that respect. The trouble is that when they get pay awards, so often others seem to get bigger awards, and so the disparity between farmworkers and workers in other industries widens
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rather than narrows. That is a serious problem for agriculture.
I recall the present Leader of the House, in the last heady days of Labour opposition, before he became a Minister, talking about the income of both farmers and farmworkers moving rapidly towards the incomes of their industrial equivalents. But the hon. Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Hazell) knows only too well that exactly the reverse has happened. I hope that on this occasion these people, who do such good work on our farms, will not have their increase eroded as a result of what happens elsewhere.
We must consider the Bill against the background of the Queen's Speech. That is a very appropriate way in which to look at it, because it is one of the first Bills of the Session and we may therefore take it that the Government attach maximum importance to it. If that is so, heaven help the country, because it is not exactly an inspiring Bill.
Try as he would, the Minister was unable to make it inspiring to the House. The Gracious Speech told us :
" My Government will continue to encourage the selective expansion of home agriculture",
and immediately went on :
" Legislation will be introduced to implement the Government's proposals on the marketing of eggs ; to rationalise the grants payable to assist fixed capital investment in agriculture ; to reorganise smallholdings ; and to modernise the law relating to sales of fertilisers and feedingstuffs."
Where does this Measure fit into all that? How will it
…encourage the selective expansion of home agriculture."?
I completely fail to see how it will achieve that end. The real truth, of course, is that the Bill contains 108 rather weary Clauses which have nothing whatever to do with expansion, selective or otherwise.
I wondered how to describe the Bill. It is not worth describing as a monstrosity. It is too insignificant for that. I suggest that it is a pettifogging irrelevance to the needs of agriculture today. I am sorry to have to tell the Minister that, but that is how it strikes me.
When speaking to a branch meeting of the N.F.U. on 22nd October, the right hon. Gentleman—I have his Press handout with me—made some interesting comments about expansion ; and as I have tried to put the Bill in that context it

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might help if I were to remind the House of some of the remarks he made. He said :
"…farmers and growers need to consider very carefully their management and investment decisions. In order that they get these decisions right, it is essential that they know the broad objectives of Government policy for the next few years. This is a need which never seemed to have been recognised in the 1950s and early 1960s when support policy appears to have been guided entirely by short-term considerations. This is what I call the yo-yo approach '."
As far as 1 can see, the right hon. Gentleman's yo-yo has run down and is at the bottom all the time. The purpose of a yo-yo is to go up and down. The Minister has got his yo-yo at the bottom and has not found a way of getting it up again.
Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that we abolished standard quantities, a measure which hon. Gentlemen opposite introduced, despite the fact that standard quantities placed a considerable restriction on production?
Mr. Godber: The right hon. Gentleman is doing his best, but he will have to do a great deal better before I am finished with him.
I was talking about the right hon. Gentleman's yo-yo approach to these matters. One can see from his White Paper how his yo-yo hangs at the bottom of its string and says there. The position of the farmer is the same as the right hon. Gentleman's yo-yo. Everything is at the bottom and the right hon. Gentleman does not know what to do to put matters right. Farmers' income and the purchasing power of that income is lower than it has been for many years, and the right hon. Gentleman knows that as well as I do.
It is difficult to know how to approach the Bill, for it does not seem to give any incentive or encouragement. It was during that speech to the N.F.U. on 22nd October that the right hon. Gentleman also said:
"… I have set out the guidelines"—
he was referring to the selective expansion programme
" and your Union has welcomed them".
That was a wonderful piece of effrontery on the part of the Minister. The union
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did not welcome those guidelines after the Price Review in March, when the right hon. Gentleman was supposed to be implementing them. The N.F.U. told him what it thought about the whole thing. I recall a leading farming journal describing the Price Review and saying that there had never been such a rejection of an established policy by any Minister since the 1920s.
Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: The right hon. Gentleman will remember that we allocated £37 million to the three main commodities for expansion.
Mr. Godber: I am aware of all these things. I contained myself while the right hon. Gentleman was speaking and I trust that he will do the same during my remarks. He must sit back and take it, for there is a lot more to come.
The right hon. Gentleman did certain things, but he knows that when one reads the small print—one must always do that with Ministerial announcements nowadays—of the Price Review White Paper one sees that the additional resources provided by the Government are not as great because they have mostly come from the market, the cost of deficiency payments having gone down. I will later give the right hon. Gentleman an exact quotation from the White Paper to enforce this point.
One agricultural journal has described the Bill as
" …a sort of ragbag of legislative bits and pieces which the Ministry of Agriculture has been accumulating in its attics over recent months. Of concrete, constructive new policy-making for agriculture there is nothing, here or on any horizon."
That is one view of the Bill, and it is not even my view.
This is not a particularly good background against which to discuss the Measure, but discuss it we must. The Minister took us through various aspects of the Bill. Part I, which deals with eggs, received considerable attention from the right hon. Gentleman and in Committee we will wish to consider the matter with care, having digested his remarks. We shall probably wish to probe a number of issues in connection with Part I very deeply.
After repeatedly taunting my hon. Friends and me with wanting to run away from the guarantees of the 1947

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and 1957 Acts, the Government have specifically taken one commodity out of them without giving any warning to the industry. This is an essential consideration in discussing Part I of the Bill. Whatever the Government may say about our policies, they can never say that we did not tell the industry precisely what we proposed to do. On 17th March, 1966, the then Minister—remember this was just before the last General Election—said :
" Labour firmly believe that the best form of support for agriculture in this country is one founded on the principles of the 1947 Act ".
In its manifesto the Labour Party was even more explicit, and I will quote the words used if hon. Gentlemen opposite want me to do so.
When all is said and done, it must be admitted that hon. Gentlemen opposite had no mandate to remove eggs from the guarantees. It therefore does not lie with them to accuse us on matters of this kind. However, having decided—I acknowledge that the Government had the report of the Reorganisation Commission—to make this change, something similar to what they are proposing was inevitable. If they were to get rid of the Egg Marketing Board, something had to be put in its place. We will, therefore, in Committee, want to know a lot more about the powers of the new authority and about the way in which it will run its affairs.
There are two basic points that must be raised when considering the question of eggs. Once the Government decided to abandon the guarantees, one must question them about the minimum import price. I was glad of what the Minister said on this score because he and I are in agreement about it. We are agreed that the minimum import price must cover shell eggs and egg products.
The second important question concerns the issue of support. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman has not given an assurance of help. He said that the Government would contribute to certain aspects of the new authority, and estimates are given in the Financial Memorandum, which says :
" It is thought probable that a Government contribution of the order of between £100,000 and £200,000 will be required in the first full year of the Authority's operation ".
The other figures mentioned refer to administrative costs—that is, the costs of
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administering something which the Government would have had to administer anyway—which means that we are not considering in this context the provision of cash.
The £100,000 to £200,000 must be compared with the figure given in paragraph 66 of the Explanatory Memorandum of the Bill which refers to the current year's payments being estimated at £14 million. That is the degree of support which the egg industry is having taken from it. Support to which it was entitled. An additional figure of £300,000 for the Orkneys and Northern Ireland is mentioned, but when one considers the total figures—of between £100,000 and £200,000 as well as that of £300,000—one sees that they are insignificant compared with what producers have been getting.
Just before coming into the Chamber I received a letter from the N.F.U. 1 assume that the Minister also received a copy, although he has not referred to it. The letter bears today's date, and reads :
Dear Mr. Godber,
I have today sent the following message to Mr. Cledwyn Hughes, Minister of Agriculture :
' Having considered Part I of the Agriculture Bill at its meeting this morning the N.F.U. Poultry Committee unanimously concluded that subject to the Government agreeing to contribute an adequate and reasonable share of the proposed Egg Authority's total costs including market support, the N.F.U. would welcome in principle the establishment of the Authority which could be of service to the industry.
Yours sincerely,
B. A. Cook,
Chairman, Headquarters Poultry Committee.' "
That is the N.F.U.'s real attitude to Part I. It would welcome the authority, with an undertaking in relation to minimum import prices provided that the Government agreed to contribute an adequate and reasonable share of the proposed Egg Authority's total costs, including market support. But that is just what the Minister has told us he is not willing to provide. The House should be aware of that. There should be no equivocation about it.
I have said on many occasions on behalf of my party that we would be quite prepared, if producers wished it, to consider with them, when we return to office,

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the provision of support buying and participation with them in its cost. We have always said that. We would have to consider the conditions, but this is the position we have always taken up. The Government are failing in their duty in not so providing. They are getting out of a liability which, on their own estimate, at present costs the Exchequer £14 million, but they are not willing to provide any part of the support buying costs. This is unreasonable, and we shall press them in Committee.
Mr. Cledwyn Hughes:The right hon. Gentleman has made it clear that his party, if returned to office, would make a contribution to support buying. He has spoken of the kind of financial assistance we propose in the Bill. Will he tell the House how much his party would contribute to support buying in the unlikely event of its assuming power?
Mr. Godber: It is a very interesting question. I have made it perfectly clear we are willing to participate in the cost. I said that we would discuss it with the N.F.U. If the right hon. Gentleman tries to belittle what we are offering, I suggest that he gives exactly the same undertaking as I have, and says now that he is willing to participate in the cost. Let him talk with the producers about it. But, on the basis of his own policy, he is in a very poor position to belittle what we do.
As I say, we shall press him on this subject very much further in Committee. remind the right hon. Gentleman that it is his policies that are affecting the farmers now, and his policies in the Bill that must be justified. That is the big failure in this part of the Bill. I will not deal with the many detailed points, as there are quite a number of larger issues to which I want to refer.
The Minister tells us that in Part I he is seeking to tidy up the whole arrangement about investment grant. I am not against any tidying up, but one of the things he has told us in that connection did not increase my confidence. He has said that he intended to remove, as I understood him, investment grants on tractors and combine harvesters. When we were in office, we did not have investment grants for tractors and combine harvesters, it is quite true, but we did
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have investment allowances which were much easier to administer and which were much better liked by the farming community.
Both agriculture and industry regarded it as a nonsense when the Government removed the investment allowances and substituted investment grants. We were told at the time by the Prime Minister and others that it would be an advantage. Now we see what sort of an advantage this is. The investment allowances for these two important items of equipment having first been turned into investment grants, are now to be abolished altogether. If they had been left as allowances, I doubt very much whether they would have been abolished. We shall certainly want to look at this matter when we are returned to office. It does not give us much confidence in Part II when the first announcement under it is the taking away of important grants.
Clause 29 is very bad from many points of view. It is very bad because it is so general in its nature that it gives the House no indication of what is in the Government's mind as to the extent of any capital grants. The Minister talked of tidying things up, but a Clause drafted in such terms is an affront to Parliament because all it does is to put control into the hands, to quote the Clause, of "the appropriate authority ". It is as wide as that.
The Clause starts:
" The appropriate authority may with the approval of the Treasury …"
and that is the real authority. It is the Treasury that will determine these capital grants. It is quite true that in the past the Treasury has had a very important hand in these matters, but when Parliament passes Acts stating specific things that have to be done, the Treasury has to find the money—even though it may, of course, try to find the cheapest way of doing so. With a Clause like this, no Minister can say to the Treasury, "Parliament is forcing me to provide money for this purpose and you, the Treasury, must find the money for me ". There is nothing to say that some grant must be made.
This wording weakens the position of any Minister of Agriculture and of any Secretary of State for Scotland in their relations with the Treasury—and Ministers know that they cannot afford to have

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their relationship with the Treasury weakened. It is a bad Clause from that point of view. It is also bad from the point of view of Parliament, because hon. Members have no means of saying what type of grant they want. We shall be confronted later with an Order—though I am glad to see that it will be under the affirmative Resolution procedure—but we shall have no means at all of amending it.
Clause 32 is an admission, if ever there was one, of the bad drafting of a previous Measure. It is a horrible conglomeration of things that ought to have been put right in the 1967 Bill. We certainly tried hard then to help the Government put it right.
I was very glad to hear the Minister tell us that in Clause 33 they are seeking to revise from 40 years to 15 years the amalgamation period. I do not blame this Minister, but I do blame his Parliamentary Secretaries—and, of course, the Secretary of State for Scotland must be included, too. They must be blamed because when the former Bill was introduced it had in it the words "sixty years ". We criticised that length of time, and when the Bill was reintroduced after the 1966 Election it contained the words "forty years ". In Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Stodart) moved an Amendment to reduce the term to 20 years. It was rejected.
So, again and again, we proffered advice that the suggested period of years was nonsensical if that Part of the Measure was to work. Now the Minister tells us that he realises that we were right. How much time would be saved, and how much better would the farmers be served, if only the Government would listen to us more. We welcome the revision. We are always glad to assist the Government with their Bills, and if only they would pay more attention to what we say we could save time for all, and pain and worry for our farmers.
We shall have criticisms to make of Clause 29. I still think that the Minister has done a disservice to agriculture in allowing the Clause to come forward in this form. He has done a disservice to agriculture in agreeing to take out the investment grants for tractors and combines, though he has made some small
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amends in connection with the points to which I have just referred.
I do not propose to spend long on Part III of the Bill. We shall study it more fully in Committee. It is based on the report of the Wise Committee and it contains a good deal that is useful. My impression, having read Part III, does not tie in with what the Minister said in his speech. He told us that it would reduce the degree of Government control and he took some credit for this. But my impression is that, instead of reducing the degree of Government control, these provisions will increase it.
I would call attention to Clause 39, which says:
"Every smallholdings authority who immediately before the commencement of this Part of this Act hold any land for the purposes of smallholdings shall review the authority's smallholdings estate …"
and later it says :
"For the purposes of this section each smallholdings authority shall in particular consider to what extent (if any), …"
and the provision goes on to specify various changes. Those provisions do not contain anything to give back very much power to the local authorities. They are being told that they must submit proposals to Ministers and that arrangements must conform with the national pattern.
My knowledge of smallholdings goes back many years—I served on a county smallholdings committee long before I came to the House—and I know that there are immense variations in different parts of the country. In some counties the sort of matters which are proposed in this part of the Bill will be good and will be welcomed, but in other pants of the country—and my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke) has strong views on this matter —there is a continuing demand for small smallholdings, as well as for part-time smallholdings.
I hope the Minister—and also the Secretary of State when he replies—will be able to assure the House that his Ministry will have special local requirements in mind and will not compel people to conform precisely to the general provisions and proposals of the Wise Report.
It is a great pity that the Government are not giving greater power to local

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authorities, when the country hears so much from the Government about proposals for local government reorganisation, the Redcliffe-Maud Report and the need to make local government effective. Although, on the one hand, the involvement of central government is very small —it can be seen from the financial memorandum that that involvement is of a limited nature—the Government then appear to be saying that they must keep a tight control. This is a wrong attitude if we are to encourage local government development. Again we shall return to this matter in Committee.
I come to Part IV of the Bill, which deals with fertilisers and feedingstuffs. I welcome the provisions in general and I am sure that they will be welcome to the farming community, but there is some bad drafting in these provisions. It would appear that no statutory statement is required about any fertiliser or feeding-stuff. In the definition Clause one sees that a "statutory statement "
"has the meaning assigned by section 67(1) of this Act."
But that section refers to a statutory instrument
" in such form, if any, as may be prescribed …"
It does not even say how it will be prescribed, or by whom, nor does it say that it must be prescribed by Order.
It is extraordinary that on this important part of the Bill we are not even told that any information will be given about the form of the Statutory Instrument. I would ask the Minister to look at this point. Certainly, if it were an affirmative Order it could be debated by the House to see that it contains the right requirements. I do not blame the Government about their intentions, but the point as a matter of drafting needs examining.
The main clauses in Part IV are Clauses 74 and 75. One important point to which we shall want to refer is the right to have samples taken and analysed after the fertiliser or feedingstuff has been delivered to the farmer. This point must be looked at with caution. The development of bulk delivery means that once material has been delivered in bulk, there is no check or help of any kind given to the farm. If it is delivered from a bulk
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container there is no means of proving from where the material originated or that the bulk holder was empty before delivery. The powers which are taken here could cause difficulty unless there is some limitation.
I should like to deal with the remaining parts of the Bill. I welcome the provisions about flood warnings. The Minister also attached some importance to the provisions on the tied cottage but, having read the Clause, I cannot see that it changes the situation very much. The Agricultural Workers Union is not enthusiastic about it. This matter has long been a bone of contention. The A.W.U. has been over-sensitive and they have strong feelings about this matter.
However, if a farmer—this applies particularly to a livestock farmer—is to run his farm properly, he must have workers on the home ground. I am all for adequate safeguards and, if it is felt that this is an improvement, well and good. But this appears to have been put in as a sop to cover up the fact that the Government are not carrying out the promises they made to the Agricultural Workers Union in the past.
I turn to Clause 100, which deals with the position of the training boards. This has been an unhappy story. I do not blame the Minister, but this has been a matter which has caused a great deal of damage in the industry because of the bitterness of feeling aroused. I was the author of the Industrial Training Act and I feel in a special position to speak upon this provision. When I introduced the Act in late 1963, I laid particular stress on my view that it was permissive in nature and should not be used automatically right across the industry.
I was concerned to get effective training in industries where there were large groupings of labour and where training could be carried out by the means which were proposed in the Act. But when the Act began to be applied to industries which are widely fragmented and where the labour force is in small groups, it was found that the cost of organising under the Act, particularly with regard to the levy system of collection, was expensive.
The Government as a whole bear responsibility for pressing the provisions of the Act into purposes for which they

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were not designed. This has led to the troubles of the Agricultural Training Board and in due course may lead to trouble in some other fragmented industries. It is a pity that this is happening, but it is no good going back over what has happened in the past. One must deal with the situation which has arisen. In today's circumstances it may be that the existing board, with the methods which are proposed for collection of funds, will provide the best solution. But if it does not work satisfactorily, it eventually will mean going back to reliance on the farm institutes, the county colleges and other bodies to carry out training in agriculture.
I agree with the stress laid by the Minister on the importance of training. But the question is : what is the best way to organise it. Mistakes have been made, and this is an attempt to put it right. I hope that it will succeed, but I am doubtful about it in some respects. We shall certainly not oppose what is proposed in this Section, but we shall want to watch how things go.
The very fact of changing in this way will take away one of the disciplines which was intended in the Industrial Training Act, which proposed a tripartite system between employers, workers and educationists. This was a general provision for each board, but we said that only employers' and workers' representatives should vote on the levy, and the levy is the point at issue here. Where only two groups vote on the levy, if there appears to be waste, the employers would, quite properly, vote against the levy and there would be deadlock. It would then be for the Minister of Labour, as he then was, and for the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity now, to determine which was right. That was a very important discipline on the waste of funds, and was intended as such.
Now, the responsibility is put elsewhere and the Minister and the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity will be responsible for seeing that money is not wasted. Otherwise, it would be easy for an organisation which is preempting for its requirements to have no incentive to avoid waste. So much for the provisions of the Bill.
I come now briefly to talk about what should in my view have been in the
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Bill, bearing in mind, as I said in opening my remarks, the context of the Bill in the Queen's Speech :
" My Government will continue to encourage the selective expansion of home agriculture."
First, there should have been positive proposals for the eradication of brucellosis. The Minister must move further on this before long. As a minimum, he should have imposed a restriction that once a reactor with brucellosis has been declared, that reactor should have its ear punched to distinguish it, and should not then be sold through an auction except for slaughter. As such animals go to slaughter at roughly their market prices, this does not impose a great strain on farmers. Most reactors are pushed back into the market and reinfect other herds. I would hope after that before long to go to a system of area eradication, which the Minister said yesterday he had been considering. I know that this is expensive, in that one has to start with some degree of compensation, but the degree of compensation would be much less for the simple reason that on slaughter there would be little wastage and the animals could be used. My first proposal would cost practically nothing, except for administration. The second proposal would cost more, but the Minister must come to it before long and I would have preferred to see it in the Bill.
The second point which should have been covered in the Bill is the problem, which is worrying farmers more and more, of how to get over the difficulties of the cumulative effect of estate duty and capital gains tax which this Government have aggravated. When the scheme for amalgamations was brought in, I told the then Minister that, while we were not opposed to it, we were opposed to a Government which, on the one hand recommended amalgamation and. on the other, pursued fiscal and monetary policies which would force fragmentation on the death or retirement of farmers. The combined effect of estate duty and capital gains tax is one of the biggest worries of the average-sized farmers. This does not apply just to the rich ; the rise in the value of the land means that it is an acute problem, and it will have to be tackled before long.
The third point which should have been in the Bill concerns rating. We

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are told that the Secretary of State for Scotland is to bring in a Bill about the rating of agricultural property. I do not say that I welcome that Bill ; I am not sure that I approve the principle of it ; but at least it will prevent the continued unfairness as between farmer and farmer. I would prefer to go back to the position which was always intended under the 1929 Act, that agriculture should be generally derated.
The Minister must face up to the question in relation to England and Wales. It is not enough merely to say that we must wait until new arrangements for local government come into force as a result of consideration of the RedcliffeMaud Report. This will mean more confusion and unfairness between farmer and farmer. At the very least, the Government should do what has been suggested by the N.F.U. and call a halt to any further changes until the new legislation on Redcliffe-Maud is brought in. If the Minister is using that Report as a reason for not acting, he should at least halt the position where it is.
The really important issue which should be in the Bill is a change in basic policy, and here I challenge the Minister on policy matters. Whatever he or his colleagues may say, it is impossible for him to make a success even of his own modest selective expansion programme. If he cannot find the funds in that way, he must find another way of doing it. We are told again and again that he will succeed, but we see in his Press release of 31st October reports of the September census which show that where there are increases they are nothing like up to the requirements of the selective expansion programme.
We see that the total breeding herd of cattle is up by 2·1 per cent., the dairy herd showing an increase of 1·7 per cent., the beef herd 4 per cent. The significant figure is the number of dairy-type heifers in calf and the number of beef-type heifers, because they are the only ones which reflect a change in farmers' policy since the last price review. The Minister reminded me of the commodities into which he had injected most, and beef was one. If that had had effect, the number of beef-type heifers should be up sharply and the total number of heifers should be up, but the number of dairy-
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type heifers has fallen over the year by 40,000, the number of beef-type heifers has risen by 9,000, so there is a fall in the number of heifers in calf for the first time of 31,000 over the year, and this does not achieve his expansion.
The right hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that the sheep-breeding flock is down, and so is the number of lambs. There is a slight rise in pigs, and within the breeding herd the number of gilts in pig showed the normal seasonal average. The poultry flock is down and turkeys are down. There is one increase which he can chalk up ; the number of ducks has increased by 6,000. If that is the Ministers selective expansion, it does not get us very far.
I must challenge the Minister on an Answer which he gave yesterday and which has a direct bearing on what I am saying. Every time I talk about our new policy, he says that the cost to the consumer is much too high. Only yesterday when I put this point to him in the House he said this:
"…none of us was ever satisfied with the figures produced by the Opposition on the cost of Conservative Party policy, which we know would put the price of food up without our entering the Common Market."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th November, 1969 ; Vol. 790, c. 991.]
I tried to ask another question, but Mr. Speaker felt that he must move on so that I did not get the opportunity to do so. This has given me the opportunity to look up his precise answer on this point :
" Mr. LEADBITTER asked the Minister at Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what estimate he has made of the increase in the price of food on the basis that the cost of agricultural support is passed to the consumer.
Mr. CLEDWYN HUGHES: It is not possible to give a precise estimate because many variable factors are involved ; but to raise market prices to the levels of the current guarantees to the agricultural industry would result in an increase of some 4 to 7 per cent. in the cost of food. If the cost of production grants were also transferred to the consumer, food prices would, of course, rise further."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th June, 1968 ; Vol. 767, c. 75.]
The Minister knows as well as I do that we have never talked of transferring the cost of production grants ; we have been concerned precisely with deficiency payments. The estimate which we made was 5 per cent. to 6 per cent. The estimate which the right hon. Gentleman's

1221
experts produced was 4 per cent. to 7 per cent. In a speech made since then he tried to qualify that, but those are the figures produced by his experts and they cover exactly the range which we stated. His answer yesterday was misleading to put it at its lowest and there is no wonder that I tried to intervene to correct him. No doubt he wishes to say that he is sorry that he misled the House on this point. He does not rise to do so—
Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: The right hon. Gentleman must realise that there is a difference between 6 per cent. and 7 per cent.
Mr. Godber: Is that the Minister's considered answer? Then I will also tell him that there is a difference between 4 per cent. and 5 per cent. His figures go from 4 per cent. to 7 per cent. Mine go from 5 per cent. to 6 per cent. If he likes to take any credit for that intervention, he is welcome to all he can get. How pathetic can we get!
The point is clear, and the Minister has endorsed our figures. The complaint which I make against him, and against the Prime Minister, too, is that they are continually trying to distort this issue in the minds not only of hon. Members but also of the general public. On the very day before the Minister said that in the House, the Prime Minister was explaining the position about our application to join the European Community.
I have here two Press cuttings from yesterday. The Prime Minister talked about higher food prices in the Community. He said:
"Of course the present form of the common agricultural programme of the Common Market means higher prices and levies on imports of cheaper food, but this is a matter for negotiation."
He did not tell the public what I have tried to bring out many times, as I did in the supplementary question yesterday —that the cost of going into the Common Market would be at least three times the cost of the change-over which we would make if we changed the agricultural policy.
My purpose in bringing that out is to show to the House and the country once more that the cost of going over to our policy is not unreasonable and that it is certainly not prodigious, the word which the Prime Minister used in the House in
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July—and that this has been a matter of misrepresentation again and again by the Government. In the House earlier this week the Chancellor of the Exchequer waxed indignant about charges of misrepresentation. I thought that he was effectively answered the next day by Lord Cromer, in another place. But there has certainly been misrepresentation about our position in agricultural policy, and now that I have reminded the House and the Minister of the figures provided by his own Department, I hope that he will be more careful about it in future.
I have established that the cost would not be unreasonable. When I make a comparison with the effect of devaluation on the cost of living and the cost of food, may I remind the House that the latest figure which is available—mid-September —shows that in the 21 months since devaluation the price of food has risen by 9·33 per cent. That is the increase over the figure immediately before devaluation.
In discussing our policy we are talking about a rise of under 2 per cent. a year each year for three years, so that the total effect of devaluation has been far greater than would be the total effect of changing to our policy. If the Minister wants expansion he ought to have been willing to adopt a system which will enable expansion to take place without the limiting hand of the Treasury being there to prevent it. This is the message which we give to the Government—that if they believe in expansion, let them stop talking so glibly about it and do something effective about it. My contention is that agriculture could help the balance of payments far more than it is helping today.
I believe that the Minister wants that, too. But in my view he has failed to get the cash for it from the Treasury because the present system will not allow it. I know the difficulties. I, too, have been involved in Price Reviews. But he cannot sustain the argument that the cost of the change-over would be too high, for the figures which I have given refute that argument. He therefore ought to have introduced by the Bill a change to that system if he believes that expansion is right. He has failed to do so. We have instead this unhappy and somewhat weary-looking pile of insignificance. We shall not oppose it. It is not worth opposing. We do not object to many of

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the things in it. We say that it is no attempt to meet the needs of agriculture today, and that is what we regret.
5.16 p.m.
Mr. Ednyfed Hudson Davies: I am disappointed that what was promised to be a massive indictment by the right hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber) turned out to be quite inadequate to the claim made for it at the beginning. Very often he dealt with such trifling details as points of wording and drafting in the Bill. It was very disappointing.
I see a great deal to welcome in the Bill. One point in particular to which I would draw attention, and which has not received much publicity, is that which deals with flood warning systems in England and Wales. I make no apology for emphasising it because it is very relevant to my constituency. Indeed, throughout the country it affects a great many of our citizens, and I am glad that this problem is being given the attention which it deserves. In the late summer of last year we had widespread flooding, and it is right that we should do everything possible to relieve this distress. I understand that in December last year the Minister convened a conference and reviewed the operation of the flood warning systems. One of the main recommendations of that conference was that river authorities should be pressed to extend the coverage of all flood warning systems to all vulnerable areas. That is common sense, but, clearly, it costs money and it may be difficult to do.
I will give an example. In the Conway Valley we have one of the worst areas in Wales for flooding. There is not a farmer in the lower Conway Valley who does not carry with him a timetable of high tides. He knows when the danger times are likely to occur and he can then prepare to remove his livestock. But the watershed of the Conway is widespread, and if there is very heavy rain in remote parts of the area floods can arise unexpectedly. Farmers are often caught out. I am pleased that in that area there has been great co-operation between the N.F.U., the police and the Gwynedd River Authority, and excellent warning procedures have already been devised. They have not yet been put to the test because we have not yet had need of them, but
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I am delighted that this Bill will strengthen the efforts being made to protect farmers from losses to livestock through flooding.
I particularly welcome the way in which the Bill will simplify capital and other grants. This should save farmers from a great deal of time spent in making applications, which is a complex problem in their lives. I was talking on the telephone yesterday to the secretary of the N.F.U. in my constituency, and I asked him to list the forms which a farmer has to complete for various grants. I wanted to make some notes of these, and it took him over 10 minutes, speaking very quickly, to run through the various forms which at different times of the year had to be completed in order to make application for grants and subsidies. I therefore welcome any steps taken towards simplification. The Bill takes a formidable step, and there is much more which can be done. I had a distressing case recently of a farmer who had failed in complete in time an application form for a grant. As a result he stood to lose a lot of money. It is true that in the end that case was sorted out, but the pressure on the farmers is considerable and any move in this direction is most useful.
I confess that there are aspects of the Measure with which I am disappointed. They fall into the category of omission rather than of the positive content of the Bill. I do not want to go into detail, but provision has been made for egg producers in Ulster and the Orkneys to have their transportation costs paid. We have not been given the detailed costing of this exercise, and at this stage it is to some extent based on surmise, but I suggest that the transportation costs of producers in other remote areas can be very considerable. I am not at all happy with the suggestion that passage over water is a criterion sufficient to give a clear advantage through the Bill to producers in Ulster and the Orkneys. I very much hope that later, perhaps in Committee, the Minister will break down the costs so that we may see whether people in such areas as the far end of Caernarvonshire have equal problems. There are people there who have committed all their capital to egg production, and we should like to see whether they will not be at considerable disadvantage because of the cost of transportation.

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I am delighted that the period during which an amalgamated new unit must be held together is to be reduced from 40 years to 15 years. That will make an enormous difference. I know of several potential amalgamation schemes which have been held up on that issue, and I dearly wish that the change could be back-dated to the publication of the Bill, for we should then see an immediate response.
I have one great worry—and this is my last, and perhaps most important, point. I hoped, as did many of my hon. Friends, that something would be done at this stage to guarantee the tenancy for the decendants of a tenant farmer. This is a very serious problem and it has been discussed often in the House. Indications have been given—indeed, promises have been given—which made us feel that by now the time had arrived when some action would be taken in this direction. The situation to which I refer is quite different from that of an ordinary tenancy of, say, a council house where the rent is paid at the end of the week in respect of residence in the house. I refer to a situation in which a tenant farmer's son has spent his whole life on the farm and contributed a lifetime's work. He may be 50 or 60 years of age. If his father, who may be 80 or 90 years of age, dies, the son has no guarantee of succession to the tenancy.
I can think of several cases in Caernarvonshire. Some have already been mentioned in the House, and I will not go over them again. There were cases of the iniquitous dispossession of able young farmers whose standard of husbandry has not been in question but who were not allowed to continue the tenancy after the death of the father. Perhaps even more pernicious is the strain and tension of the uncertainty, of not knowing what the position will be when the tenant dies. This may be even more harmful than finding when it comes to the issue that the son will not be allowed to continue in the tenancy.
The position in Scotland is somewhat different. I do not know that it is very successful there, but at least a close relative of a tenant after the tenant's death cannot be dispossessed automatically. At least he can make a counter-notice before
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the Scottish Land Court. I am sure that when the Minister replies to the debate he will say that the situation in Scotland is rather different and results from the introduction of provisions in the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Act, 1968, which merely reintroduced a right of appeal which had existed in Scotland previously and by which a close relative of a tenant could appeal, a provision which was laid down in the Agriculture Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1949. I am not sure that that is the point. While it is true that this provision existed in Scotland for all these years, the justice of the matter is not affected ; it should apply equally everywhere.
This issue was discussed during the Committee stage of the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1968. It was then suggested that arrangements similar to those in Scotland should be introduced into England and Wales, although I concede that they do not always operate successfully in Scotland since a landlord can often secure termination of a tenancy by indicating that he wishes to bring about amalgamation. However, at least in Scotland the law leans towards the right side, although it cannot always be enforced.
Mr. Brewis: Is there not another side to the argument—that it dries up the number of farms to let for young men who wish to start farming?
Mr. Davies: That is true, and that is one of the counter-arguments. Another, to strengthen the hon. Gentleman's case, is that there can often be a situation in which it may be said that there is a doubt about whether a succession of tenants without an interest in the freehold would be responsible in their husbandry. These arguments have some validity, but I have seen so many of these cases of dispossession that I am convinced that the argument of hardship to the would-be tenant who is evicted is far stronger.
I was referring to a Committee stage when my hon. Friend the Member for Cardigan (Mr. Elysian Morgan), supported on that occasion by my hon. Friend the Member for Merioneth (Mr. William Edwards), put forward a new

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Clause. The previous Minister of Agriculture, now the Leader of the House, said:
" The whole field of agriculture holdings legislation, including its security of tenure provisions, is a difficult subject, but I assure my hon. Friend that it is already under review …
In addition to that, I am—as I must—consulting my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales …
I am consulting my right hon. Friend because we recognise that this is certainly a subject of importance in the Welsh context It is, however, a question of some magnitude and we shall need proper consultation before coming to a final conclusion.
In view of what I have said I hope that my hon. Friend will recognise that I am aware of the problem, that it is very complex and has to be viewed in a context of wider legislation, and that we are discussing it with the bodies concerned…with that assurance, I hope that he will not press his Clause."
My hon. Friend the Member for Cardigan then said:
" I gratefully welcome the assurance given by my right hon. Friend … I would however press on him the request that the discussions should not be allowed to continue interminably, and I hope that we can look forward to a decision within a matter of months rather than years."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee B, 8th February, 1969 ; c. 662.]
That was nearly two years ago, and I think that the time has now come.
I know that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture is very interested in this question and that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales is. In Wales responsibility is shared between the Minister of Agriculture and the Secretary of State. I have looked at the breakdown in the Transference of Powers Order but I am not sure how it works out in practice. Because this tenancy succession issue is much more a Welsh than an English problem, this may be an excellent opportunity for the Secretary of State for Wales to show that he is in a significant position in this relationship between Ministry of Agriculture and the Welsh Office. Perhaps he will be able to do something to introduce fairly rapidly the long-awaited, long-necessary legislation to right this iniquity. I ask my right hon. Friend to bear this closely in mind.
5.30 p.m.
Mr. Michael Jopling: My reactions to the Bill are much the same as those of my right hon Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber)
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He referred to it as an irrelevance and I am sure that he is right. My main criticism is of the extent to which it is vague. I cannot help feeling that important parts of it are only enabling Clauses which allow the Minister to do something through orders or through other methods which are not described. The right hon. Gentleman did not throw much light on how he means to go about operating some parts of the Bill which are vague, and I want specifically to deal with some of them.
Part II refers to capital and other grants. We are told that it is proposed to amalgamate certain grants and the Minister tried to describe them. Most of us on this side of the House would welcome the amalgamation of grants in that it would mean that applications could be made in a simpler way and on a simpler form. I hope that that will reduce costs considerably, but we have not been told how much public money will be saved.
Nor have we been told in the Preamble to the Bill how many civil servants will be saved by this change. I find this very strange, because a logical outcome of amalgamating grants would be the amalgamation of Ministry services. What is being done about amalgamating the National Agricultural Advisory Service and the Agricultural Land Service? If the grants are to be amalgamated under one head, it would seem logical to amalgamate the services, too.
We have read reports in the Press that this is to be done, and I suppose that matters have not yet reached a conclusion. But in this context the Minister should tell us what is proposed for his officers who will deal with the new applications. Are the two services to be combined? Is the matter still being debated, or have discussions within the Department finished? Why is it that the Minister finds it impossible to tell us in the Explanatory Memorandum how many civil servants will be saved? What is his thinking about this matter? He has not told us anything about it and it seems to be a fundamental outcome of amalgamating the grants.
The Minister told us of a number of the grants which were to be amalgamated, and the Explanatory Memorandum says that they will amount to about £35

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million. We welcome the fact that the total amount to be spent, however, is not to be reduced.
One of the grants included in the list is the ploughing grant, which seems a strange capital grant. I should like some explanation why the ploughing grant is included among the capital grants. I am not against pushing as many grants under the single umbrella as possible, because this may be of the greatest use in future. If the time comes when we want to join the European Economic Community and we have to justify some of our production grants, it will be much simpler to justify them if we have them under an umbrella of this sort, and it may be possible to push through some which might be considered by the Commission to be on the borderline of Article 92 of the Treaty of Rome. If that is so, this may be helpful if we join the Common Market.
I suggest that the Minister considers some other grants to see whether he cannot include them, too, under the umbrella. If he can include the ploughing grant, why not the grant for farm business records? It could be held that that is given for only a limited time and that, in the same way as the ploughing grant, it is a capital injection to try to reorganise a farm on better lines.
We have not been told anything about rates. If rates are to be unified under one, two or three headings instead of there being individual rates of grant, some of the grants would probably be reduced, and if some of the grants for certain of the improvements are to be reduced we should be told now.
Part IV of the Bill is very vague. It deals with fertilisers and feedingstuffs. The Minister said that it was intended to protect consumers, but I am not certain that it will be effective in that. The Minister said that it would provide accurate information to farmers to judge the quality of what they were buying. For many years I have been making an annual fuss when the fertiliser Orders have been debated. I have complained about the wide limits of variation in the analyses of fertilisers. I hope that the Bill means that the permitted variations are to be tightened up.
I was delighted when I saw the Bill. and I even wrote to the Minister to say
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so when I saw that this subject was to be dealt with, but on reflection I am not sure that the Government intend to tighten up the tolerances. At present, manufacturers of fertilisers, with which I am particularly concerned, are allowed a 10 per cent. variation either way, which means that if the advertised amount of nitrogen is 10 per cent. it may be 9 or 11 per cent., so that there is a total 1·75 per cent. variation allowed in earth-plant nutrient.
This variation is far too wide. The theoretical discrepancy between the value of the article as advertised and as it can legally be at the lower end of the tolerance variation means that it can be worth £4 a ton less than the farmer is paying, and the farmer is "done" to that extent without the manufacturer transgressing the law.
Worse than that, a degree of public money is involved in the subsidy to a maximum of 17s. 2d. a ton of fertiliser, which can amount to a great deal of money in the course of the year. The present level of tolerance is much too wide because it has been on the Statute Book for 30 years and is tied to an old-fashioned form of fertiliser manufacture which is now out of date.
In support of my argument, I want to quote from an article which appeared in the current issue of the British Farmer. It was written by Mr. Charles Miller, Chief Inspector of Weights and Measures for the North Riding of Yorkshire. He says:
" A survey carried out in the North Riding showed that most suppliers were regularly in slight excess of the analyses claimed, but others took advantage of the wide limits of analytical variation to turn out products consistently at the less favourable end of the tolerance.
It came to my knowledge that one firm demanded very fine limits of error when they bought ' straight ' for compounding so that their own product could safely remain just within the law. The losses on these legalised shortages were costed out on several farms and, on one, as much as £105 was lost in a season solely on the nitrogen content of compound fertiliser."
I regard this as quite wrong. Manufacturers can manufacture fertiliser to tolerances much tighter than a maximum of 1·75 per cent. I have seen it done myself. I have looked at the figures of one of our largest manufacturers on a manufacturing run.

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The larger fertiliser manufacturers would welcome a tightening of the limits. They might not admit it, because the market is already dominated by the giants and they would not like to be accused, as they would be, of putting a further squeeze on the smaller manufacturers, who may be tempted to do things of this sort. I do not know what the Bill intends, because it is so vague, and we have not been told, but I am certain that the Minister must reduce these tolerances which are so wide as to constitute a scandal.
I know that the National Farmers Union has been pressing for this for many years, and so have I, as the Minister knows. It is no good the Minister making a token overall reduction to, say, 5 per cent. in aggregate. The situation is scandalous and the Minister must not fudge it. I hope that we shall have a proper explanation of the provisions dealing with fertilisers.
The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John Mackie)The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John Mackie): On the point about fertiliser, is the £105 quoted in that article the difference between the maximum and the minimum or between the lower point and an average?
Mr. Jopling: Perhaps I should read it again. It is the legalised shortage on the advertised analysis. Taking the advertised analysis of nitrogen, after analysis was taken and one saw what it actually was. the short-fall of nitrogen was worth £105. That is the one matter about which I am concerned. It is vague. I hope that this vagueness will be cleared up by the end of the debate.
5.40 p.m.
Mr. Bert Hazell (Norfolk, North): Before making my comments on the Bill, I should like to say how interested I was in the remarks of the right hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber) concerning the proposed increases in the wages of farm workers, announced this morning, in the negotiation of which I played some part. I was particularly interested because, unfortunately, I do not think that the proposals will be big enough to stop the outflow of labour from the land that has been and is likely to be disastrous to the future of agriculture.
But we must appreciate that in spite of what the new rate will bring by way
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of earnings in the industry, the gap will still be far too wide to encourage young men to enter agriculture as a way of life and as an occupation. This gap emerged during the years when the Tory Party was in power. In recent years we have been struggling to close it somewhat. I hope that the award now announced will tend to close it. Everyone in the industry recognises that unless we can show the young farm worker of the future opportunities and possibilities of advancement within the industry, we shall not be able to get or retain youngsters, who are so vital in the long term to British agriculture.
We are considering a miscellaneous Bill for the agricultural industry. It is the second miscellaneous Agriculture Bill on which I have spoken in this House. This one has tar more ramifications than the previous miscellaneous Bill which became an Act of Parliament. Indeed, during the five years that I have been privileged to serve my constituency in this House, I do not think I have come across a Bill that has so many mixed ingredients. Almost every aspect of agriculture is touched on from one point of view or another.
It is obvious that a Bill with such wide ramifications will have parts with which we shall agree, but there will be other parts—I am sure that my right hon. Friend appreciates this—about which we shall be highly critical. That does not mean that the House will not welcome the Bill. Of course it will, because there will be a good deal of tidying up in agriculture when it becomes law. Nevertheless, because of its wide ramifications, we shall be critical of certain aspects affecting particular matters with which some of us are very closely connected.
I could go in some detail into the proposals for eggs, but I will not, because there are other aspects to which I want to give a little more attention. I make only one comment on the proposals affecting eggs. I am disappointed that my right hon. Friend has departed from the principle set out in the 1947 Act, based on the recommendation of the Commission set up to advise on the future of the egg-producing industry, by deciding to set up an Eggs Authority.
I think that the Egg Marketing Board, despite all the criticism that has been

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levelled against it and the difficulties with which it has had to contend—because not all eggs passed through the medium of the Egg Marketing Board, and that undermined its influence to a considerable extent—has done a good job during the period that it has functioned. We have seen the price of eggs stabilised over the years. There are few commodities for which we can claim, as can the poultry industry and the Egg Marketing Board in particular, that there has been virtually no change in price over the past ten years. I know that new methods of husbandry and so on have played a vital rôle in enabling this to be achieved. Nevertheless, the Egg Marketing Board, through its extensive advertising campaign, which can never be undertaken on the same scale by the new Eggs Authority, has been able to create an expanding market for eggs and egg products and at the same time hold a consistent price to consumers in this country. That is no mean achievement. We can all hope that the new Eggs Authority will be as successful, but I have my doubts. I am pretty certain that the price of eggs will rise as the Eggs Authority will be as successful, but subsidies that the Government will make to it during the formative years gradually disappear.
The other items to which I want to refer directly affect farm workers, whom I have been privileged to serve in one way or another for practically the whole of my working life.
I turn, first, to the part of the Bill dealing with smallholdings. There is a proposal that local authorities shall submit to the Minister their views on reorganisation over a relatively short period. Reorganisation of smallholdings under local authorities has been going on for a very long time. I believe that the best judges of reorganisation must be the local authorities which know the types of smallholdings, the types of land, the general set-up and, at the same time, know the scores of applicants on their waiting lists who will never have a chance of acquiring a smallholding under a local authority. This knowledge must cause local authorities to think twice before putting two smallholdings into one, thus depriving a would-be applicant of the opportunity of getting on a ladder of advancement so
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far as the applicant sees advancement in that direction.
I served for many years on the West Riding of Yorkshire Smallholdings Committee. I know the disappointments of farmers' sons and farm workers who make application after application for a smallholding, confident that on the limited acreage that might be available they can make a go of things because of their knowledge and their experience, but who, because of the many applicants, unfortunately stand very little chance of securing the unit for which they seek a tenancy.
I can see a case for merging in many cases, and if my right hon. Friend had been a little more positive in this part of the Bill and brought in proposals to stimulate local authorities to go out and acquire more land to enable additional holdings to be set up when amalgamations of existing holdings too place I should have had a great deal of sympathy with them, because then I should have thought that lost opportunities would not have any great impact, thanks to the new land that could be acquired.
I hope that the Government will not lose sight of the fact that to many young people interested in agriculture the possibility of a holding of their own acts as a beacon to them, and that in many cases it is the only thing that keeps them within the agriculture industry. They have their eyes on the future. They are optimistic about the possibility of getting a holding under a local authority, but as I read this part of the Bill that possibility will he extremely remote.
I turn now to the Agricultural Training Board. I agreed with the right hon. Member for Grantham when he spoke about the unhappy existence of the board since its formation. I recall the occasion when, apart from the Minister responsible for the Bill, I was the only speaker in favour of the training board. The Opposition got on the bandwagon of those farmers who, rightly or wrongly, opposed the idea of a training board directly financed by the industry through the medium of a levy.
Mr. Peter Mills: Does not the hon. Gentleman recall that one or two of us—my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone (Mr. John Wells) in particular, and others—started the bandwagon, rather than got on it?
Mr. Hazell: I do not think that that is any cause for pride, because if there is an industry which requires a training board because of all the changes that are taking place, it is agriculture. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman's viewpoint gives him any cause for self-congratulation. It is no cause for pride that he started a bandwagon to oppose something which, in the long run, will have lasting benefits for agriculture.
Mr. Mills: Not in this form.
Mr. Hazell: The board has been faced with political difficulties which have hampered it in its work. Now that these difficulties appear to have been resolved I hope that the board will be able to get on with the job for which it was created.
Perhaps I might remind the House in passing that it was the N.F.U. as an organisation which sought in the first instance to have the board created. The N.F.U. approached my organisation and asked us whether we would jointly go to the Minister in an effort to secure the appropriate legislation for the establishment of the training board. We did this because we as a union felt that it was the right thing to do. No one questioned at that time that a levy system was wrong, certainly not the N.F.U. It recognised that the industry had to finance its own training scheme, just as other industries do. But the history since then has been very unfortunate, and it has had the unhappy result that the staffs employed to do a job have been looking over their shoulders to see whether the board might be wound up because of the tremendous number of problems with which it was confronted.
If as a result of the arrangements proposed in the Bill the industry as a whole gets together, as I believe it is now anxious to do, to work out schemes which will enable training to go forward undiminished, I think that the contribution which the board can make to the future of agriculture will be very real indeed.
Mr. John Wells: The hon. Gentleman must be fair about the historic situation when referring to the approach of the N.F.U. The N.F.U. approached the Minister jointly with the hon. Gentleman's union, but it did not do so in an effort to have set up the
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board that has been created. The N.F.U. approached the Minister to set up some sort of reasonable training board.
Mr. Hazell: I am surprised at the hon. Gentleman's comments, because my knowledge of Government Departments is such that I know that when an approach is made to a Department to do something, before any legislation is proposed discussions usually take place, and in this instance they did. I am surprised at the hon. Gentleman's comments. He obviously does not know about the discussions that took place before the legislation was placed before the House.
About two weeks ago we discussed codes of practice within the agriculture industry. Feelings ran quite high about the care and attention, or lack of it, that we bestowed upon animals and poultry, but one thing that emerged from both sides of the House was the need for good stockmanship, and I agree 100 per cent. with that. If we can encourage new young entrants into the industry, I believe that the training board can play a vital role in creating good stockmen for the future under the new conditions that have emerged, and will continue to emerge in the industry.
I must refer to Clause 98, which deals with the tied cottage issue. I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend for bringing in this new provision. I am sure that he will appreciate the reasons behind what I am about to say. I would have wished that he might have gone further. Over the years the Labour Party has expressed its views about the policy of the tied cottage for the farm worker. The undertaking by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. George Brown) some time ago has been stated over and over again. I would have hoped that by now the Government would have gone all the way and made it compulsory that before a man, his wife and family could be evicted from their cottage suitable alternative accommodation should be made available.
We have always said that this is what we mean by the abolition of the tied cottage. This year the T.U.C. unanimously supported this point of view. I am not unmindful that the proposed provision is a step in the right direction, and we welcome it. I know that the 1965 Rent Act eased the situation over evictions. In this connection I have to thank many

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people, not least the local authorities, for the manner in which they have co-operated in finding alternative accommodation when an eviction order was granted by the courts.
But evictions are only the tip of the iceberg. The problem confronting farm workers is that when something happens on a farm and they are occupying a service cottage they immediately have the threat of eviction when the job ends. The anxieties of the wife, in particular, and the family have to be seen to be appreciated. In the course of my quarter of a century as an official of my trade union I have had to go into scores of cottage homes where this anxiety has existed. One has to bring some measure of solace to a family to appreciate the depth to which the system has sunk in the minds of farm workers.
While the 1965 Rent Act has reduced the number of evictions, the number of applications to the courts, unfortunately seem to have increased. Our experience, and I speak on behalf of my trade union, is that judges over the last 12 months or so have granted shorter periods of stay within the cottage. At first they used to grant three months before a man could be evicted, and then a further extension and perhaps another extension. Now the matter has become one of a few weeks. It is with appreciation that I welcome the fact that under this part of the Bill six months, with certain exceptions, is likely to be the period allowed in which to seek other accommodation.
I hope that the courts will interpret the wishes of the Minister in this respect, because unfortunately they have not been interpreting the views of the Minister in dealing with the 1965 Act as he would have wished. I am interested to see that, so far as I can gather, the hostility to the tied cottage issue which used to come from the other side of the House seems to have subsided. I am glad, because I believe that both sides recognise that the tied cottage system as it affects the farm worker is a blot on the countryside. I would have wished my right hon. Friend to go further but I welcome this provision as a step towards the ultimate that we as a trade union have in mind.
6.5 p.m.
Sir Harry Legge-Bourke: I am glad to have the good fortune to
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follow the hon. Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Hazell). I wanted to talk about practically all the matters he has raised. He rather surprised me when, as I thought, he implied a criticism of the courts for the way in which they have been administering the 1965 Act in respect of tied cottages. He made a point which Ministers all too often overlook. They can say what they like when introducing a Bill about their intention, but what matters to the court is how the law is drafted. It is the duty of the court to abide by the law as drafted. What the Minister may have said was his intention may have been his intention, but unless it is written into the Bill the courts cannot implement it.
I have always felt that one of the most unjust things which has been done to the memory of Neville Chamberlain has been the lack of recognition for what he did in the 1925 Housing Act when as the Minister of Health—probably one of the greatest Ministers of Health this country has ever had—he introduced the Act which enabled rural district councils to build in rural areas. Until then if a person wanted to live in a certain village and work on the land it was inevitable that he would have to work for one man and that his family would have to work in that man's house as domestic servants. It was largely this which built up the antipathy to the whole system, and there is still a slight hang-over from it today.
In my constituency the greatest number of people living in tied cottages belonging to large farmers would be about 25 per cent. More and more farm workers live in the nearest town or village. In those villages they are all too often paying rents far beyond their means when one compares them with those who go to work in towns and cities such as Peterborough and Cambridge. Such people are putting in four or five hours less per week and getting something like three or four times more than the agricultural worker.
I must congratulate the hon. Member for Norfolk, North on his success in the latest wage negotiations. I only hope to goodness that the London dustmen have a look at them. When one thinks of what the London dustmen were striking for and compares it with what the agricultural worker gets, the London dustmen can think themselves jolly lucky. I shall

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go on all of my life trying to persuade those who live in towns of the great injustice all too often done to agricultural workers because of the minimum wage they are expected to accept.
If trade unionists in other unions use this latest award to agriculture to begin a new chain reaction for wage claims they will simply put the agricultural worker back where he started in relation to the cost of living. I hope that we shall see sense prevailing and that more of the other unions will want to see the agricultural workers raised to the level that they enjoy before they all go on together. If we can get this we shall have much better co-operation between town and country. Ever since I have been a Member it has been my desire to say nothing which would alienate town from country or country from town.
I now turn to the Wise Report on that part of the Bill which deals with smallholdings. I bitterly regret the fact that we did not have a debate on the report before the introduction of the Bill. I congratulate Professor Wise and his team on the report, and not least Professor John, of the London School of Economics, who wrote the historical introduction. Too many people forget how far back in parliamentary history the desire for smallholdings goes. My own maternal grandfather is mentioned on page 6 of the report. It says that Lord Carrington, who owned Willow Tree Farm, let it to an association of small holders way back in 1889. He was also one of the Minister's predecessors in a Liberal Government. At least he had the courtesy to pay tribute to the work that the Conservative Government had done before him in introducing the earlier Smallholdings Act.
It is worth remembering the objectives of the Parliament of 1906 in relation to the introduction of the Bill of 1907, which was finally consolidated with the Allotments Act in the Act of 1908, which achieved considerable fame. My grandfather said:
" What we are trying to do by the Bill is merely to restore to the agricultural labourer some of the conditions under which he lived in the earlier part of last century."
He was referring to the beginning of the 1800s. He then quoted his own paternal grandfather—also a President of the
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Board of Agriculture—as having, in 1801 or 1802, sent a Commissioner down to the Ancaster Estate at Grimthorpe, who reported back to the effect that
" every labourer had from three to 15 acres, all had at least two cows, several ewe sheep and a pig or two. Their rent was from 10s. to 20s. an acre and each labourer also had a cottage and a garden for which he paid from 20s. to 40s. a year."
It is important to recognise that this historical background to the smallholdings approach has considerably changed over the years. There would have to be a very different approach if we were to try to restore to the farm worker an opportunity always to do a little farming on his own account—at any rate to keep him in milk and pigs, and so on. Great changes have occurred over the years. The biggest mistake was made when we tried to use the smallholdings procedure to provide resettlement for ex-Servicemen at the end of the First World War. We did not make sure that the land on which they were expected to start up was suitable. The personal tragedies that followed were deeply regretted. We must not make that mistake again.
The Isle of Ely contains the largest smallholdings estate of any of the English counties. We are no longer a separate county, alas, but the Isle of Ely parliamentary division contains a larger smallholdings estate than exists in any other county, although the majority are part-time holdings. I find the recommendation of the Wise Committee on that aspect of the matter most grievous, because it seems to imply that the part-time holding is on the way out, that it is not desirable to retain it, that its usefulness has been served, and that we must move on.
If we are to use the smallholdings estate for an entirely different purpose from that for which it was created there is force behind that argument. Let us examine what the Wise Report recommends and what I gather the Minister has accepted, which is that from now onwards smallholdings shall be used not to meet local demands, part-time or full-time, but to ensure that those coming out of the agricultural educational establishments all over the country shall have a chance of getting a farm to start on before they would get one in the ordinary course of events if they were lucky enough to have a father who would hand it on to them.

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This is a major change, and the Minister as as yet given us little justification for it.
We have never debated this report fully enough. Reading the Bill against the report, it is difficult to see to what extent the regulations which will be laid in due course will contain specific recommendations of the Wise Committee, or whether quite a lot of the Wise Committee's recommendations have already been put in train. I understand that already smallholdings authorities—county councils—are refusing to allow widows to stay in the holdings or the sons of previous holders to have priority in terms of applying for the holdings. That is all part of the Wise Committee's recommendations, but there is no mention of it in the Bill. We do not know whether the regulations will contain these recommendations, or even take them further.
We have had a quite inadequate explanation of Part III of the Bill by the Minister, and I hope that he will elaborate a good deal more upon the major recommendations of the Wise Committee which he intends to implement in the Bill. I remind him that not long ago a group of my hon. Friends and I reported to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition on the feeling that existed about various matters in the East of England. I have a copy of the report with me. I know that it has gone to some Government Departments, but I do not know whether the Minister has seen it. We gave a good deal of attention to smallholdings policy, and I should like to read a short quotation from the report in order to give some idea of the measure of the problem.
We said that the Wise Committee's Report had met considerable opposition in the constituencies having the largest number of county council smallholders:
"These in order of numbers of holdings are the Isle of Ely with 1,300 of which 1,028 are on a part-time basis ; Norfolk with 1,165 of which 494 are part-time, Holland (Lincs.) with 1,036, of which 750 are part-time, Cambridgeshire, with 812, of which 542 are part-time, Huntingdonshire with 455, of which 208 are part-time, West Suffolk with 219, of which 78 are part-time, Essex with 216 of which 23 are part-time"
gradually dwindling away in numbers, until we finish with East Suffolk, with 87, of which 11 are part-time. These are all East Anglian counties. The main ground of objection that we had to the Wise Report was that in future county
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council smallholdings would no longer be able to be let to local applicants, but, rather, would let to the best of the new entrants to farming from wherever they came. As I understand it, the Bill empowers authorities to insert advertisements in national and certainly farming newspapers if a holding becomes vacant in their county. Thus, councils will presumably invite applicants from all over the country.
The Wise Committee deplored the continuing idea of local county waiting lists. I do not see why it should deplore that. Every day about a thousand people go out of my constituency to work in Peterborough, King's Lynn or Cambridge. I have never thought for a moment that the proposal about smallholdings was simply part of farming policy. I have always seen it as having another important purpose—to try to keep town and country together, with the townsman understanding the countryman's problems, and vice versa.
Indeed, I see nothing regrettable in a man who works at a lathe in an engineering factory also having a part-time smallholding which he farms in his spare time. What I deplore—and admittedly this became rather an abuse—is a tenant of a part-time holding sub-letting to somebody else or getting the work done by somebody else. That I would stop, and it could be handled by the administration of the county land agent and the local smallholdings committee. I believe that there is a sociological value in a man who works in one of the engineering factories in one of our bigger towns surrounded by rural areas also being able to farm on his own account to a small degree. After all, we have the everlasting drift from the land. It is useful for those who drift away to earn their main living elsewhere to maintain some link with the industry in which they started. That is why I had hoped that we should have the opportunity to thrash out the Wise Committee's Report before having thrown at us this legislation, which I find obnoxious.
The trouble about the training board was that Agriculture House got out of touch with the branches. The Isle of Ely branch remains adamantly opposed to the training board even under these new arrangements. The reason is that farmers have yet to be persuaded—and I believe that this applies to the vast

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majority of farmers in the country—that the closeness of their contact with those working for them is not sufficient to make this board unnecessary. They feel that it would be better to boost the apprenticeship scheme and ensure that the apprentices are encouraged to go to those farmers best able to instruct them and most modern in their technology. The training board set-up may be essential —I think it is—for those industries which have thousands of men working every day under the same roof and involved, for example, in highly sophisticated electronics. But the contact between the employer and the worker on the average farm is sufficiently close for a farmer to know when he has a man whose potentiality clearly lies in technical work. He can always get one of the big tractor manufacturing firms to provide a course, and he can handle the matter better on a more personal basis.
That is why I think that from many points of view the board is a mistake. Of course, Agriculture House first asked for it, but then Agriculture House had to think again, having discovered what the branches thought about it. At least the Minister has gone a long way to meet objections by saying that he will finance the board, but I do not wish to give all the tribute to the Minister because it means simply that the taxpayer will pay. I wish that we could get it firmly into the minds of people in farming and in other industries that the Government have no money except that which the taxpayers let them have.
This is why I have always objected to production grants and why I feel that the whole basis of our agricultural policy since the war has been wrong. This is not the time to go into that, but I believe that until farming is able to do what every other industry has to do—make its way, with adequate protection against imports—we shall not get the right answer. But that is another story for another day.
Mr. Speaker: Order. The House has been reminded that many hon. Members wish to take part in the debate. Brief speeches will help.
6.24 p.m.
Mrs. Joyce Butler: I hope that hon. Members with agricul-
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tural constituencies will bear with me if I make one or two comments on the Bill from the consumers' point of view. There are many aspects of the Bill which I welcome, but it is rather unfortunate that the debate has to take place so soon after the publication of this very long and complex Bill, because that means that we probably have not had as many comments from consumer organisations and others affected by the Bill as we might have had. The debate, therefore, may not perhaps be as informative as it might have been, for that reason.
But I welcome very much the setting-up of the new Eggs Authority, although it is disturbing from the consumer point of view that out of 12 members of that authority there is to be only one person
" who in the opinion of the Ministers is specially conversant with the interests of consumers of eggs."
The chairman and the deputy-chairman will be independent of any trade or producer interest, but it seems doubtful whether one person can deal adequately with the consumer representation side of the authority.
I am assuming that the consumer committees which were appointed under the Agriculture Marketing Act will have no jurisdiction with the new Eggs Authority, but I wonder whether my right hon. Friend will look at that situation and see whether those consumer committees, which have a great deal of experience of agricultural marketing schemes, including the egg marketing scheme, might be authorised to continue to look after consumer interests in relation to the new Eggs Authority. I have a particular interest in this matter because, as the Ministers know, they were required to consult the co-operative union in the matter of appointments to consumer committees. That was very valuable. I should like to see it continued in some way if that can be done.
The continuance of quality control of eggs is extremely important, because one of the great benefits brought to consumers by the old marketing scheme was the grading system for eggs and the strict quality control which helped to raise standards to a high level. Although Clause 25 gives the Minister power by order to make provision for the grading and marketing of eggs, I wonder what is to happen in the interim between the

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winding-up of the Egg Marketing Board and the coming into existence of the new Eggs Authority. It would be a great pity if there were a deterioration in the situation relating to the grading of eggs during that period. Will the Minister comment on that point?
It is a pity that Clause 25, which makes this provision, is only permissive, because from the consumers' point of view there is a demand for such information as is provided by the date-marking of eggs. Whether that is possible or not, it is desirable that at any rate the Eggs Authority should have some obligation to see whether anything can be done to meet his consumer demand. In this connection, I wonder whether the Eggs Authority will have any power to help in the sale of free-range eggs or whether this will be left to the individual producer. Again, there is considerable consumer demand for a scheme of this kind.
Clause 6, which enables the authority to
" submit to the Ministers schemes with respect to the quality testing or weight grading of eggs for sale by wholesale "
again is only permissive instead of being a statutory requirement and that seems to be a pity because there is a demand for greater nutritional quality in eggs. I wonder whether the new Eggs Authority will have any requirement laid on it to look at the possibilities of some determination of nutritional quality. This is difficult to define and determine, but consumers are very much interested in the nutritional quality of eggs and I hope that this will be taken into account in the new arrangements.
It is important that all packing stations, and not just the big ones, should be registered. This will protect consumer interests. Whether eggs are sold direct to consumers or through retail outlets, other than over the farm gate, they should be subject to the minimum quality and weight requirements as will apply to the registered packing stations.
After 30th March, 1974, the new Authority will have to be financed by a direct levy on the industry. My right hon. Friend will remember that the Horticultural Marketing Council collapsed shortly after the Government withdrew their financial support. In regard to the levy which supports the Meat and Livestock Commission, the distributive
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side feels that it is carrying the whole burden of the levy while producers escape. Be that as it may. I hope that the levy for the Eggs Authority will be imposed on all sections of the industry and not merely on distributors, for unless justice is done in this matter the future of the authority may be at risk.
Mr. Godber: I reinforce the hon. Lady's remarks and remind her of what happened to the Cucumber and Tomato Marketing Board. A levy was raised for that purpose and the board failed because it had no other means of finance. The hon. Lady has raised an important matter in connection with the future of the new authority and I am grateful to her for doing so.
Mrs. Butler: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his comments and I hope that this matter will be considered in greater detail. I also hope that the buying and selling powers of the new authority will be used in a manner which will not be detrimental to consumers.
I welcome the provisions in Part IV relating to fertilisers and feedingstuffs, and I do not share the gloomy predictions of the hon. Member for Westmorland (Mr. Jopling) who felt that these provisions were so vague as to be ineffective. When made, will the regulations provide for non-nutritive additives in feedingstuffs to be declared, such as dyes put into poultry feed to make yokes more yellow or chemical flavourings such as chicken-taste extract? Will systematic insecticides used in this way have to he declared?
More important, however, is the use of antibiotics. For example, will a drug like chloramphenicol, which is used as a mass feeding additive for broiler chickens and which has also been used as a growth promoter in calves—but which also happens to be the only effective antibiotic for use against typhoid in human beings—have to be declared if used in feedingstuffs?
With the Swann Committee's report due, will it be possible for its recommendations to be included in the Bill? An hon. Member earlier referred to a report about smallholdings having been produced. It is unfortunate that when we debate agriculture we often discuss a subject as the main topic of debate at

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the time when a report on another sub. ject has just been published. I fear that we are in this position over the Swann Report on antibiotics and that the same can be said of the report which the Minister is expecting on D.D.T.
I have been studying the Bill with a view to finding a peg on which to hang some remarks about D.D.T., although I would like to hang the substance literally! I cannot find one, but I trust that my right hon. Friend has noted the recent snap sampling done by the Daily Express. The eggs they tested contained 58 parts per 1,000 million of D.D.T., as against the accepted safety level of 50 parts. This subject is not, therefore, completely irrelevant to the debate, and it is important that we be informed as quickly as possible what is to be done about D.D.T.
If antibiotics are not covered by Part IV of the Bill, can some provision be made for implementing in the miscellaneous provisions the recommendations of the Swann Committee, should its report advocate restrictions on the use of antibiotics? Equally, if the Committee which is considering the use of D.D.T. makes recommendations restricting its use, could they be embodied in the Bill?
I think that the answer will be in the negative. It is a pity that these reports could not have been received before the Bill was published or that the two could not have been synchronised—their publication and the preparation of the Bill —so that this could have been an all-embracing Measure, the miscellaneous provisions of which could have covered the points I have made, which are very much in consumers' minds at the moment.
Mr. Timothy Kitson: Would not the hon. Lady agree that the subject of cross-drug resistance and the publication of the Swann Committee's report represent such important matters that it should be possible for a new Clause to be added to the Bill to cover these matters ; that is, if the Minister really wishes to deal with them?
Mrs. Butler: I am hoping to be told that that will prove possible, but if there is no means by which Part IV can cover any suggestions made by the Swann Committee, then perhaps the miscellaneous provisions can be worded in such a way
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as to cover any recommendations that the Swann Committee may make, and the same goes for the views of the Committee studying D.D.T.
I welcome the Bill. I would have welcomed it still more had it extended to the substances of which I have spoken. I can but hope that these substances will receive urgent attention as soon as the relevant recommendations are before the Government.
6.38 p.m.
Sir Clive Bossom: I always look on the hon. Lady the Member for Wood Green (Mrs. Joyce Butler) as an excellent watchdog for the housewife. She speaks with real knowledge of these matters on behalf of the consumer. She raised some interesting points about eggs and, like her, I wish to see the present high standards maintained.
Like the hon. Lady, I want to know more about the financing of the new authority. I welcome some parts of the Bill, especially the new provisions for flood warning systems. The new provisions are much improved and more easily workable.
As my right hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber) pointed out, there are some regrettable omissions from the Bill. As the Diseases of Animals Act, 1950 is mentioned in the Bill the Minister could have done something to speed up the eradication of brucellosis, which is also a human health risk in rural areas. It is regrettable that so many reactors are being pushed on to the market, and soon the country could be riddled with the disease if we are not careful.
A Clause should have been introduced for the interim suspension of rating of farm buildings because the present situation is causing concern throughout the agricultural industry. It is my duty to pass on the comments of my farmers in Herefordshire on Part 1, and especially their comments on the removal of the eggs guarantee.
I am sure the Minister realises that he has raised suspicion and doubt in their minds. They now feel that the door has been unbolted, and slightly opened, because the price guarantee on one commodity included in the 1947 and 1957 Agricultural Acts has gone. If the

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Government do away with the guarantee on eggs by a stroke of the pen, farmers wonder what commodity will go next. Will it be potatoes? Or cereals? Or milk? Now I would like to ask the Minister what he foresees happening to the 400-odd packing stations, because they will not know until April 1971 what is expected of them.
Does the Minister think that the Government's intended contribution of £100,000 or £200,000 will be enough to get the authority started? I believe that to get the authority off the ground the Minister will have to be more generous, otherwise the scheme will not get the producers' support. I hope, too, that the Minister will soon be able to tell us whom he is going to appoint as chairman and deputy chairman of the authority. I trust that they will be "men of great persuasion ", because they most certainly have a difficult job ahead of them.
Next I turn to flood warning systems, the provisions contained in the new draft Bill are much better. They are more easily workable than those in the Land Drainage Act and the Water Resources Act of 1963. Clause 87 clearly sets out what a river authority may do. Clause 88 empowers the Minister to make grants towards approved flood warning systems, and states what can be included in them. It appears to give river authorities a fair amount of latitude, and for that they are grateful. The new system is a great improvement, because the Minister will now be able to approve future schemes. In the past, it was very often the case that the Minister of Housing and Local Government had to be consulted, and this caused unnecessary delays.
But I have one criticism to make. Having seen the Wye River in flood in September, 1960, up to 19 ft. 7 in., and in January, 1968, up to 16 ft. 4 in., I feel that in view of the national importance of flood warning systems throughout the catchment areas the whole cost of installation of the river recorders and other apparatus should be borne by the Government. A flood warning system does not help only the farmers. It also helps property owners, motorists and owners of heavy industrial vehicles. It is a national problem, and the cost should be borne entirely by the Government.
Grants are now payable on a percentage basis. The Wye River Authority
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receives just over 50 per cent. of the cost of its river recorders and other installations, but even after these electrical recorders have been housed and installed they need continual maintenance and supervision, which is a heavy charge on any river authority. I hope that the Minister will seek to relieve the river authorities of this initial heavy expenditure.
Clause 98, in Part VII, refers to tied cottages. 1 am sorry that the Government want to revive this old political argument. I was interested to hear what the hon. Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Hazell) had to say. I, like all my hon. and right hon. Friends, want to encourage farm workers to remain on the land, and we are willing to do everything we can to that end. I was delighted yesterday to see that the farm workers had got a small award in their pay.
The six months' security of occupation following the termination of employment is a provision that is just not needed. The courts already have plenty of power to safeguard the farm workers. Farmers are human beings, and they will behave humanly. The average Herefordshire farm is of about 150 acres, and usually employs only one farm worker. If the man and his family remain in the cottage for six months after leaving his employment, farmers will find it well nigh impossible to get a replacement. One can argue so many ways—council house tenants have no security of tenure ; if they do not pay their rent out they go.
On the other hand, farmers have a case here which makes sense. Could they not be given more latitude to be able to get their tied cottages freed for "temporary letting "? If a farmer cannot use one of his cottages and it is empty—and more and more of these dwellings are becoming available as fewer men are required on the land—he should be allowed temporarily to let his cottage to a young married couple working in a nearby town or village who prefer living in the country. Incidentally, these wives might well be willing to help at harvest time, and at other seasons of the year.
In Clause 100, which deals with training boards, the Minister has to be more realistic and give the farmers a new deal. Many farmers were never in favour of the training board scheme as it was. The Herefordshire farmers thought that

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they were not getting value for money. Of course, some form of training is required—I am all for it—but I doubt whether the farmers will be willing to pay their arrears, and that is where the trouble will arise. I even foresee some famers actually enjoying a visit from the bailiff, and offering him a pig in lieu of the money!
In the first year 1967–68, 88 per cent. of farmers paid the levy, but it left £100,000 still to be collected from the other 12 per cent. In the second year, only 30 per cent. have paid the levy due in August, leaving £800,000 still outstanding. It would be much more realistic if the Minister just called it a day. Refund 30 per cent. who have paid, rather than try to summon over 60,000 farmers. The administrative cost of collection could be extremely high, and in some cases it could cost nearly 30s. to get back £1. If farmers are further summoned it will put their backs up against any form of training schemes—and the Minister will know that farmers can be very stubborn fellows. They do not mind standing up to him, or having a stand-up battle with the board.
As it now stands, two-thirds of the farmers will be summoned and chased and will not apply their minds or energy to helping to get training schemes started in their counties. The Minister must think very carefully about these arrears, otherwise farmers in many areas will be awkward about co-operating. Our biggest problem is encouraging the young workers who unfortunately describe these schemes as going back to school—to take these courses. So it is important that farmers should encourage them.
Clause 101 touches on disease. What a splendid opportunity has been missed. We know that the Minister is worried about the eradication of brucellosis. In answer to a Parliamentary Question yesterday he said that we must get the eradication scheme speeded up. The only way to do that is to offer greater incentives. The present scheme is not attractive to the ordinary farmer, and human health is at risk in the rural areas. Lots of reactors have been pushed on the market, and in time the country could be riddled with disease. The Minister told us yesterday that he was seeing how he could help farmers in his constituency of Anglesey. The worry is that the herds
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in the national scheme represent only 6 per cent. of the total. In Herefordshire, only 62 out of about 2,000 herds are registered. I agree with the Minister that a full-scale eradication scheme would prove too expensive, but I believe that farmers will co-operate if he introduces an area by area eradication scheme and a system of marking all known reactors by ear punching. There is growing concern amongst farmers and vets and we would all want to see faster results. There is considerable concern in some quarters about efficiency of the S.19 vaccine. From reports it seems that the degree of protection afforded by the S.19 vaccine is not as good as it was. I hope that the Minister will seek expert advice, make the scheme more attractive and, if possible, add a clause to the Bill.
6.51 p.m.
Mr. Donald Anderson: The Second Reading of an Agriculture Bill is an opportunity for looking at the detailed provisions, for looking at the context in which the industry operates and for speculating about those features which we would all like to see included in the Bill but which are not included.
The right hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber) lost some credibility by overdoing his expressions of woe and claiming that the Bill was nothing more than a pettifogging irrelevance, but large sections of the Bill have been warmly welcomed by the industry, while on other features the industry has expressed some dismay and suggested individual improvements which might be made.
The reply given yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Minister to a Parliamentary Question about the preliminary returns from this year's harvest suggests that the industry is now operating in a much more favourable climate than one would have thought from his statement last November about the selective expansion programme and the import-saving role of the industry, and in March this year at the time of the Price Review. The semi-justified scepticism shown by the industry in March was because of the poor returns for last year, which was an exceptionally bad year, and much less scepticism is now justified in the light of this year's better output record.
Another feature which is relevant to the aims of my right hon. Friend for

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import substitution is the long expected wage award for agricultural workers which was agreed yesterday. It is a tribute to the pressure brought both by my right hon. Friend and by my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Hazell), who has worked so hard on behalf of his members. One of the most obvious Achilles heels of the selective expansion programme was the fleeing from the land of so many agricultural workers. I have recently seen the returns for Wales, which show the drop in the number of agricultural workers over the past years. This is quite worrying and one hopes that yesterday's award will be sufficient to stem the tide and make more possible the objectives of the selective expansion scheme. It is a propitious time to maximise the import-savings role of agriculture, and in the light of the improved returns this year, I am sure that the long-term view taken by my right hon. Friend will be much more justified.
In the not too distant future there is the likelihood of E.E.C. negotiations, and we need to press ahead while we still retain our freedom of action. This point was put in relation to the sugar industry in a recent article by M. Sturrock in the National and Westminster Bank Review which argues that whilst we still retain our room to manoeuvre we should press firmly ahead on import substitution.
Many hon. Members have said that Agriculture Bills are too long and too tedious, but they have nevertheless suggested additions which, if accepted, would make them even longer and more tedious. Accepting that I am guilty of this, may I suggest two omissions which have caused concern. One is the uncertainty about the rating of farm buildings. Farmers bring to me most frequently their problems about the anomalous decisions which have been reached by the courts, and a positive Government directive is needed to clear up the uncertainty. I hope that my right hon. Friend will consider removing this pressing uncertainty, which is bound to affect productivity.
Another omission is the failure to deal with the transmission of a tenancy in England and Wales on the death of the existing tenant. This matter was raised in Committee on the 1967 Act by my
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hon. Friend the Member for Cardigan (Mr. Elystan Morgan). The 1967 Act remedied the position in Scotland and the status quo ante was installed so that it was possible under certain conditions to transmit a tenancy from father to son. This provision does not prevail in England and Wales, and many difficulties arise at local level. There has been considerable pressure in Wales about this. ft is arguable that the whole question of the transmission of tenancies needs to be considered in the context of a much larger review of land tenure, possibly not by the Ministry of Agriculture but by the Department of Local Government and Regional Planning. I hope that when the review is near completion my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will press strongly on behalf of the tenant interest.
I am always a little sceptical about consumer interests on boards of this sort. My mind boggles at the thought of a person to represent egg eaters. Having heard the eloquent speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green (Mrs. Joyce Butler), my doubts on this score have disappeared. I am sure that my right hon. Friend is aware that there is considerable local doubt about the new,Eggs Authority being able to ensure stability at times of seasonal overproduction. I hope that this is only the traditional conservatism of the industry and that as soon as the new scheme gets into its stride these doubts will be removed, although the replacement of an elected board by an unnominated board will perhaps not help in ensuring local willingness to co-operate and in removing those doubts.
The hon. Member for Leominster (Sir Clive Bossom) voiced suspicions that the new scheme might be applied not only to eggs but to a whole series of other commodities and be the thin end of the wedge. It is a common point made in local agricultural circles and it might be worth my right hon. Friend making some reference to these local suspicions and fears when he winds up.
Coming to smallholdings, I am very glad that the Government are taking action in the Bill. We had those two substantial reports from the Wise Committee in March, 1966 and July, 1967, and it would clearly have been a very

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grave omission had action not been taken after those very exhaustive surveys.
Taking up the point made by the hon. Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke) about the sociological role of smallholdings in cutting down the divisions between town and country, I do not entirely follow him in his thinking and in his reference to the possibility of a man being a fitter during the day and a part-time smallholder in the evening. There are much more likely means of cutting down that gap between town and country. The motor car is likely to play a much more important role in achieving this than smallholdings ever have done or will do. I would not give much weight to that sociological factor which the hon. Gentleman stressed.
Clearly, however, smallholdings represent a major national asset to agriculture. A fundamental plank in the proposals of the Wise Committee was that the statutory smallholdings provided by local authorities in England and Wales should have a new purpose, that they should be reorganised to provide what the Committee called a gateway for the best new entrants to farming. Clearly, for historical and financial reasons, it is not easy to get a start in agriculture, and for many younger men coming from the agricultural colleges without capital it must appear that the bottom rungs of the ladder do not exist, that they have to have a considerable amount of capital and connections before they can hope to enter the industry.
This is not helped by the technical changes within the industry which demand much larger holdings, making it even more beyond the grasp of the normal lad from the agricultural college, who has either to go out of the industry or to go abroad if he is not fortunate enough to have the capital available to enter the industry. Smallholdings can be made useful for this purpose, and they would be more useful if they were reorganised to meet modern farming needs. Obviously, the local authorities themselves must have the expertise on the ground and it is reasonable that they should put forward their proposals for reorganisation. I am glad, therefore, that the Bill requires Ahem to do this.
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Clause 39 states :
" before the end of the period of eighteen months beginning with the commencement of this Part of this Act or such extended period as in any particular case the Minister may allow"
smallholdings authorities must
" submit to the Minister proposals with respect to the future management…"
I hope the Minister will exercise his discretion in this respect generously for it is impossible for smallholdings authorities to engage extra staff for these purposes. I am sure my right hon. Friend would not wish them to do so.
In particular, I notice that Clause 46(3) dealing with co-operation in smallholding schemes, commences with the words :
" To such extent as appears to a smallholdings authority to be expedient "—
again stressing the importance of local knowledge. My own local authority, for example, has had its fingers burned twice in the fairly recent past in such co-operation schemes. In Monmouthshire, two Welsh land settlement schemes have failed, one at Leechpool, where a scheme similar to that indicated in Clauses 3 and 4 failed through mistrust and bad management, and the smallholdings authority was forced to take over the land and amalgamate the majority of the smallholdings. The sale of the produce was, in this case, the final straw that caused the plan to fail. The second example in the fairly recent past was in the Court House Estate. Even when administered by the Ministry and when all the results were pooled, this type of co-operation scheme failed and the county council purchased the farm from the land settlement and split it up among its own smallholders. This experience of the local authority in having had its fingers burned twice recently illustrates the need for putting the greatest possible weight in the hands of the smallholdings authorities.
Coming to Clause 52, the move from the Ministry to local authority loans will be very unpopular at the local level. Local authorities dislike long-term loans, and most local authorities are unlikely to have much cash available for smallholding tenants. On the interest rates point, what use is a loan of, say, 10¾ per cent. plus ½ per cent. if the tenant requires the full three-quarters as set out in the Bill to stock his holding? He had better

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give up before starting, unless there is some source of cheaper finance available to him. I want the smallholdings in this country to make their full contribution to agriculture and providing the opportunities which they should. I hope that by the time the Bill emerges from Committee we shall have enabled the smallholdings authorities to make better use of this not inconsiderable asset.
Turning to capital and other grants, in Part II of the Bill, it seems to me that we are making sense of a system which has done a lot of good but is, as my right hon. Friend said, by now a little jumbled. Recently my right hon. Friend was described in the Economist as "streamliner Hughes ".
Mr. Peter Mills: With his figure?
Mr. Anderson: As one would expect, his constituents in Anglesey changed it to "Hughes the tidier" or something similar. However, it is in this field that my right hon. Friend has made his influence felt clearly. The proposed single scheme has been well received by the industry. It ought also to be well received by the British taxpayer since it will clearly save a lot of money on administration. May I make one last point which does not seem to have been stressed so far. As I understand it, some of the present grants are on a continuing basis. An example of this is the farm improvements scheme. Under the new arrangement these grants will be put on a continuing basis. This surely will be welcome to the industry, and demonstrates the intention to help productive investment in the industry.
Many of the proposals will, no doubt, be improved to a greater or lesser extent in Committee. I welcome the Bill particularly because of the Wise implementation and because of the administrative streamlining which, I am sure, for a long time will be linked with the name of my right hon. Friend.
7.10 p.m.
Mr. John Brewis: I hope to be able to touch on some of the points which the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Anderson) raised, but time is short, and I shall begin by dealing with some slightly different subjects which interest me.
The new proposals for eggs have been received in Scotland with considerable
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misgiving because nobody likes to see a producer marketing board being wound up or the guaranteed price being phased out without any definite and certain knowledge of what will be the level of minimum import prices and whether, indeed, there will be any support buying to help the price of eggs when the guaranteed price has gone. The difficulties of the remote area producers are being recognised in Northern Ireland and the Orkneys but they are receiving a transport subvention to compete with producers who are also remote, such as those in Kirkcudbright and Banff. One wonders why the Orkneys were chosen alone of the Scottish islands. They are, of course, the biggest producers of eggs but there are commercial egg producers in other islands like Lewis and Shetland also, which is usually mentioned together with Orkney.
Sometimes I wonder if the Government appreciate the contributions that agriculture makes to the economy of the areas remote from the big conurbations. They are doing a great deal to promote manufacturing industry in the development areas but it will be a retrograde step if existing industries such as hill farming and egg production are run down. Egg production in Scotland last year was valued at fill£11·1 million compared with £12·7 million in 1963. As prices have risen by about one-quarter since 1963 a more realistic figure for 1963 would be £16 million. It would appear also that there could be a worse run-down on one reading of Clause 29, which deals with grants, if the existing criterion for farm improvement schemes, namely, that the improvement must be for the benefit of the land, is being withdrawn. If that is right, it could mean that factory farms with no particular connection with land would be getting grant. I am sure this would be entirely wrong. We should look rather further. The French, for example, a logical if not particularly sentimental people, have already begun restrictions on new factory farming enterprises and such enterprises must receive permission from the local prefect before they can be started. A simple provision is being considered in Germany at the moment.
We need more information before we can welcome Clause 29 in regard to consolidation of the various grants. It was

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a shock to me to hear that the investment grant on tractors was being withdrawn and I hope that the Minister who is to reply will tell us what the Government intend to put in its place.
I hope there will be no reduction in the drainage grant and the water supply grant in particular. As the Minister knows, farmers in Scotland are being put to considerable expense at the moment in dealing with slurry disposal. Could it not be considered whether this business which is so similar to drainage, could also qualify for 50 per cent. grant?
We have heard already from my right hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber) of the big omission from the Bill, that there is no improvement in the brucellosis eradication scheme. It has only just been realised how prevalent is undulant fever in human beings. As well as knowing several cases myself, which have only recently been diagnosed, I have some figures from the medical officer of health of Aberdeenshire showing that there are approximately three people per 1,000 affected in this area. What is more, in a sample of 2,000 blood samples taken in his laboratory, no fewer than 600 showed up that the individuals concerned had been affected by undulant fever at some time or other. We should regard this disease as very serious.
The figures given in an Answer to my hon. Friend the Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) of the number of herds now accredited in Scotland, at 2·2 per cent. over all, seem to me extremely disappointing considering the scheme has been in being for more than two years. We are already behind many European countries and the rate of progress is not nearly good enough. Surely the right procedure is to eradicate the disease on an area to area basis, starting with those areas mainly concerned with dairying. If the Government cannot afford a slaughter and compensation policy, can they not at least pay a premium on milk from herds in an area where the disease has been eradicated? But above all, there must be the system of preventing known reactors getting back to the auction room and I agree with the suggestion made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Grantham that there should be some mark on such beasts, such as an ear punch
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hole. But the best thing of all would be a slaughter and compensation policy on an area-to-area basis.
My last point is the Training Board levy. I welcome the provision for funding it through the Price Review, but how is the burden to be spread on non-reviewed commodities? Timber prices, for example, are not included in the review but there have been so many modern advances recently in forestry, such as the general adoption of the mechanical chain-saw, that training courses are very much needed.
It would seem very much more appropriate that forestry should continue to be included with agriculture as they are both rural industries and both share similar machinery like the tractor, rather than that it should be lumped with some other Training Board such as woodworking or furniture making, as I understand has been suggested. There are several other points in the Bill which undoubtedly merit criticism and I am sorry that I cannot give the Bill more than a very halfhearted welcome.
7.17 p.m.
Mr. Gordon Oakes: I know that the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. Brewis) will forgive me if I do not follow him directly on the points which he raised.
First, I must say something about the rather surprising speech we had from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber). Coming into a debate expecting to make one or two points on what I consider a useful Bill, I was surprised by the right hon. Gentleman's pyrotechnics at the beginning of his speech. He threatened dire consequences to my right hon. Friend. Even when my right hon. Friend, with his characteristic meek Welsh modesty, attempted to interrupt to put him right, he threatened that there was much worse to come, that he had not even begun to attack the Bill and the Government's policy.
I listened enthralled. I waited. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Bill was a pettifogging irrelevance to agriculture today. If that be so, I thought, surely he must have some very severe criticisms and indictments of various

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parts of it. We did not hear them. We had some drafting criticisms, and one or two points which might be dealt with in Committee.
Mr. Anderson: Does it not speak volumes for the Opposition that they speak in far more extreme terms than the leaders of the pressure group directly involved, who have given the Bill a general welcome?
Mr. Oakes: My hon. Friend is right. I shall come to that in a moment. The right hon. Gentleman, if he makes such criticism of the Bill, ought to damn it very precisely where he considers it wrong, not just make Committee points or suggestions for amendment to various parts of it. More than that, if he is so explosive in his criticism that he is thinking of blowing up my right hon. Friend and his Bill, we are entitled to have from him, as the Front Bench spokesman, the Opposition's alternative agricultural policy and some idea of the Bill which they would have introduced.
We did not get that either. I suggest that we did not get it because this Bill is welcomed as a useful Measure for the industry. The industry accepts it ; so there is no ammunition for the right hon. Member there. As to his own policies and those of his party, the less said to the agricultural community about them the happier the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends are, because the industry does not like them. Hon. Gentlemen opposite do not want discussion of their policies.
It is not without significance that in the last half century there have been two major Agriculture Acts affecting the land in Britain and the agriculture industry. One is the 1947 Act, which was one of the greatest landmarks in agriculture in any country, introduced by a Labour Government, and the other was the 1967 Agriculture Act. [Laughter.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite may laugh at it now, but the effects of it will be seen over the next decade and it will be recognised as an important Act which will have very great benefits for agriculture.
Mr. Speaker: Order. With respect, the hon. Gentleman might come to this Measure now.
Mr. Oakes: I am coming to that point.
Mr. Godber: Since the hon. Gentleman has been kind enough to refer to me, and I am always very interested in what hon. Members opposite think of me, would he comment on the 1957 Act, which is the only Act under which farmers are really getting security today? If he says that the 1947 and 1967 Acts are the only ones that matter, he is not in agreement with the farming community which is most concerned about the 1957 Act. in which I played a part.
Mr. Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman must not tempt the hon. Gentleman to get out of order.
Mr. Oakes: I am tempted, but I will resist the temptation. I merely say to the right hon. Gentleman, for whom have a high regard, that his speech was so explosive that one realises that today is the day after bonfire night.
I turn now to Part IV of the Bill. We always think of farmers as producers, but here they are being dealt with as consumers. I am certain the agriculture industry will welcome this Bill, which gives it the benefits which the Trade Descriptions Act gave the consumer generally. It is right that this protection should be given, that this system of inspection should protect the farmer from unscrupulous dealers or mistakes made by the dealers, making certain that the farmer knows what he is buying and gets what he believes should be given.
In this connection we had an interesting speech from my hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green (Mrs. Joyce Butler). She may well have been right that more than fertilisers and feeding-stuffs should have been included in this Part. I can see no reason why under the long Title of the Bill pesticides should not also have been included. I would agree with her about her attack on D.D.T. I would not agree with her when she said that she would ban D.D.T. She should realise when making criticisms—let us not forget that the report has not yet been published—that D.D.T. has been a useful insecticide in agriculture since 1945. No one has ever died from D.D.T.
There is no evidence that D.D.T. has affected any human being. The worst that can be said of it is that it might have affected the fertility of predatory birds. Against this criticism should be

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put the fact that D.D.T. has saved the lives of millions because of the eradication of malaria in huge areas. It has been of great benefit to British agriculture as an insecticide. It may he that our chemical industry is producing substitute chemicals, but while they may be cheaper than D.D.T. in the long run, they will certainly be dearer now. When my hon. Friend speaks of D.D.T. so disparagingly we should set the balance right and consider that, like many things which come under criticism, it has its good points as well as its bad ones.
The other part of the Measure which interests me is that referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Hazell) and the hon. Member for Leominster (Sir Clive Bossom)— Clause 98, which improves that is all I say it does—security of tenure for agricultural workers in tied cottages. I would ask my right hon. Friend to consider whether this Clause could not go further and stop up another way in which an agricultural worker can be evicted. Many such workers live in rent-free cottages or in cottages the rent of which can be under £20. In those circumstances there is an ancient Act on the Statute Book, passed in 1838, allowing the landlord of such a cottage to take the tenant not to the county court but to the magistrates' court.
This is used not extensively in the agricultural world, but, I regret to say, extensively by local authorities, and they should he ashamed of it. If the tenant is taken to the magistrates' court, with the best will in the world the magistrates must grant an eviction order unless there is some defect in the notice.
There can be no consideration of the tenant's rights against the landlord. The court is concerned in such cases only with the technical point whether the notice of eviction was properly served, the proper period has expired, and the words are correct. If that is so, the tenant has to be evicted. I hope that my right hon. Friend will stop up this possible escape route whereby the very few unscrupulous landlords on being blocked by Clause 98 might decide to use this method to evict the holder of a tied cottage.
The hon. Member for Leominster said that he did not think that this was neces-
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sary. I could not disagree with him more. My hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North told us how important it is to the agricultural worker. When I was a law student the definition of a serf was a man who was tied to the soil. Is not a man tied to the soil if through the prospect of giving up his job or of having a row with his employer he will lose not only his job but his home? Of course he is tied to the soil in such circumstances. My hon. Friend and his union are right to fight tooth and nail on this issue so that there is security of tenure for the agricultural worker, so that he is not at the mercy of his employer.
It may be that a few farmers use this, but some can, and the fact that they can gives a sense of insecurity to a skilled worker. Even after yesterday's massive increase which the union and my hon. Friend obtained for the industry, that skilled worker receives a minimum wage of £13 3s. for a 43-hour week. It is not the Government whom the farm workers have been fighting over this for 50 years ; it is the representatives of the farmers. There are a number of useful provisions in the Bill but none is more useful for the farm worker and his status than Clause 98, which at least gives additional security to a man to remain in his own home even if he loses his job.
I support the Bill and commend it. It is not a "pettifogging irrelevance to agriculture." It is a collection of a number of useful provisions which will be of great benefit to the industry.
7.30 p.m.
Mr. Emlyn Hooson: Like all miscellaneous provisions Bills, this Measure is in many ways a hotchpotch. Nevertheless, it includes many important provisions. I am sure of their importance, but I am not sure that I support all of them. I do not want to follow the hon. Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Oakes) now into the points he has made, but I will come to them in turn.
I turn, first, to the provision with regard to smallholdings. The most valuable contribution to the debate so far has been that of the hon. Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke). I agree that it is a pity that the House has not had the opportunity to debate the Wise Report at length before the Bill was introduced, because the Wise Committee's

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findings are important not only from the point of view of agriculture but from that of the social pattern of our country. I was with the hon. Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Hazell) all the way when he spoke about smallholdings. I represent a county which has a large number of them. I think that it has the highest acreage of smallholdings of any county of England and Wales.
It is astonishing that, whenever the tenancy of a smallholding is available in the county, there is always a large number of applicants for it. We should not underestimate the importance of the hope of getting a smallholding. It means to, say, the fourth son of a small farmer or to a farm worker who has no other means a way of getting his foot on the rung of the farming ladder. The economists would not understand, but people who have lived in the countryside do, that very often these men prefer to work fantastically long hours in order to have the independence of their smallholdings than to go, as some of their brothers have done, to Coventry and earn three times what they could on the smallholdings. If the Minister does not understand that, he does not understand the countryside and what makes it tick. I do not know what the views of the Secretary of State for Scotland are on this matter.
I am in favour not only of full-time smallholdings but of part-time smallholdings. In my area, because of the distances involved we do not have people who are, say, mechanics, with part-time smallholdings, but the men who look after our roads want them.
One of the most enlightened and successful farmers I know once bought a farm in a hill area of Wales. There was a small estate with a very large farm and four adjoining smaller farms, varying between 70 and 90 acres. He gave one to each member of his staff as a smallholding and they worked four or five days for him. It was a happy arrangement which ran very successfully the whole of the time that man farmed there.
I am certain that we should be careful not to intervene too much with the local authorities in relation to smallholdings. If the Labour Party wants to lose virtually every vote among the farmworkers and farmers' sons in Wales, let it do away with the bottom rung of the farm-
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ing ladder, which is what it is in danger of doing.
The Wise Report was in many ways very valuable, and I agreed with much of it. But I disagreed fundamentally with certain of its approaches. I would like to see the smallholdings authorities enlarged for Wales. I will tell the Secretary of State for Scotland what is happening in that part of the country.
Many marginal farms coming on to the market are being bought by such organisations as Economic Forestry Ltd., consisting of a number of rich people investing money in order to avoid death duties. Because of restrictions on credit and so on, it is difficult for young farmers to compete for these farms. The Forestry Commission cannot because it is controlled by the Ministry. But private forestry interests are not so controlled and they are taking over these farms which otherwise would be admirable starting places for young farmers.
I would like to see the smallholdings authority in an area like mine empowered to buy some of these farms in marginal land when they come on the market. Often, farms of 100 to 150 acres become available. These are larger than the normal ideal of a smallholding but, because of their situation, they are about as productive as smallholdings of 30 or 40 acres on better land. I have the greatest misgivings about the Bill's provisions with regard to smallholdings.
Something about which I not only have misgivings but which I am completely against is the Agricultural Training Board. The compromise solution provided in the Bill does not answer the point. I think that it was a mistake for the Government to extend a scheme which had been drafted for large industries to such an activity as agriculture. Thousands of skilled men are leaving the land every year. It is not that they lack skill. What they lack is an economic return for their labours. It is not that farmworkers need greater skill. They need greater returns.
The Agricultural Training Board has set up a large and expensive headquarters. The overheads are fantastically high and our return from the project is going to be very small. I would have preferred the Minister to bring in his own scheme, using the courses of the

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county agricultural colleges and such establishments as the projected Welsh Agricultural College. One need only open a farming paper to realise how many admirable courses are run in farming institutes and colleges which can meet the needs of the industry. The board is an expensive luxury and we would be well-advised to do without it.
One very important provision in the Bill deals with eggs. I do not think that it is sufficiently appreciated that we are, for the first time, dealing with a departure from a basic principle of the Agriculture Act, 1947. Credit for that Act has quite rightly been claimed by the Labour Party but it was supported by all parties in the House. Yet what we are witnessing in this Bill is a rejection of a basic principle with regard to eggs. It is therefore a very important matter.
One can discern the trend in the industry. The larger farmer, the man who is able to set up his own selling organisation or to take part in one, the man in the more favoured areas, is looking favourably upon and is being more and more attracted to the idea of a free market with import controls. The small farmer, however, the man in the remoter areas, realises how vulnerable he is and much prefers to cling to the security of what he knows. That is the dilemma to be found in the debates in all parties at the present time.
I could not understand much of the chiding of the right hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber) against the Minister because, really, they are running along the same road, although at different speeds. I agreed with the criticism that it was almost like hearing distant thunder with the storm never coming. As I have said, there is a basic dilemma here. I believe I speak for most of the farmers in my part of Wales and, I think, in Scotland, in saying that the Egg Marketing Board, with all its many deficiencies, would be preferred to the proposals now before the House.
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. William Ross): But farmers did not support it.
Mr. Hooson: They were critical of certain aspects of the board, and rightly. Whether it was a deficiency of personnel or policy, it is not for me to say now. Many aspects of the board were criticised
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but, with all its shortcomings, it did provide the means whereby people in the less favoured areas of the country could get their eggs to market at a reasonable price. It is the technical developments in egg producing—the vertical integration—which has made the situation so difficult to deal with. There is always the difficulty that what is a fair return for the small farmer when marketing is organised by a large Government board may be a killing for the large integrated producer. Now the Government are contracting out of the guarantee for eggs and the small man's future, particularly that of the man in the remote areas, is pretty bleak.
A concession has been made for Northern Ireland and the Orkneys, although not for Shetland. It is difficult to understand why the Shetlands should be excluded in this regard. But the point that the less favoured areas other than the Orkneys and Northern Ireland will suffer enormous disadvantage is true. If the new Eggs Authority is to be a success —and I have considerable doubt as to whether it will be—it is vitally important to provide some form of stability for the market.
Surely the first thing necessary to do is to have adequate control of imports, which so affect the egg market. It may be 'that we are almost entirely self-sufficient in eggs, as we are, but the 2 or 3 per cent. importation of eggs makes all the difference to the stability of the market. I have never been in favour of a minimum import price. Why pay the foreigner an additional price for his eggs when by means of a variable levy on the imports themselves, this country could benefit rather than the countries from which we are buying? It is important that, however it is done, the new Eggs Authority should have adequate control in that respect.
It is important that support buying should be substantial and that there is no time lag. The Secretary of State will know that there is considerable experience on the Continent of support buying and the criticism I have always heard there is that it is all very well having in theory a floor on the market but that, when there is a time lag, it is particularly pronounced as between the distant areas and the main agricultural centres. In other words, the price may not have dropped overall

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sufficiently to warrant the support buying agencies operating, although in the remoter areas the prices in the markets may be below the average at which the buying agencies would normally intervene.
It is the experience of the Common Market countries that, in the remoter areas, the support buying technique does not fulfil the idea of a guaranteed minimum price to the producer. Unless this aspect is looked at carefully, and unless the Eggs Authority is going to have the money and power to establish genuine stability in the market, we may as well say that we would be better off without it.
I disagree with many members of my own party on agriculture. I say that either we should go for a free market in agriculture with no trimmings except for import control on price, or we should have a system which is virtually based on the principles of the 1947 Act. I think that this country has moved in the direction of the support price—the levy system —simply in order to adjust its system to the Common Market.
It would be the height of folly for the country to go over to that system unless we were to have some great benefits—and that is arguable—out of the Common Market. To go over to that system without any guarantee that we would get in would be to take the worst of all worlds. The farming community would lose its guarantees and the consuming public would be faced with far higher prices than we have been used to paying. If there is one thing the country cannot afford if it is excluded from the Common Market it is a high price food policy. I am sure that this is the basic consideration for many people.
There are many other comments which I should like to make on the Bill, but many of them are about Committee points. It is a very important Bill in many ways and I envisage long periods having to be spent in Committee in consideration of some of its provisions, but I have considerable misgivings about many parts of it.
7.45 p.m.
Mr. Joseph Ashton: The right hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber) said that farm workers were over-sensitive on the subject of tied
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cottages. If there is any subject that makes people sore, it is housing. I want to refer to Clause 98, which deals with tied cottages.
Farm workers in my constituency will undoubtedly welcome the extra security which the new provision for six months' security of tenure will give them. But I am not certain that this will close the loophole which arises because of the Small Tenements Act, 1838. The use of this Act was attempted in my constituency not two weeks ago. A man and his wife and nine children were served with a notice to evict them from their farm cottage.
They had been evicted from a council house for arrears of rent nine years before. A farmer, who was generous and kind-hearted, allowed them to go into an empty cottage. He did not charge them any rent. The man suffered from long periods of chronic sickness, but he did some work around the farm, and his wife also worked on general maintenance on the farm—painting, tidying up and so on. They did not receive any wage for the work, and they lived rent-free but paid the rates. They had no rent book.
The philanthropic farmer died, unfortunately in a state of bankruptcy—whether due to his generosity I do not know. His son took over and served the eviction notice under the 1838 Act.
I took up the matter with the Ministry of Housing, which said that undoubtedly the eviction would go through the county court and there was very little that the Ministry could do about it.
Mr. Hooson: The magistrates' court.
Mr. Ashton: I checked on this. In the past such cases have gone to the magistrates' court, but the letter from the Ministry of Housing refers to the county court. Because the case was being heard in the wrong court, there has been an adjournment. In the meantime, as a result of various pressures, the local council has offered the family a council house, although where it will find a council house able to accommodate nine children in satisfactory conditions is another problem.
What matters is that this is an instance in which the 1838 Act will eventually be used. It is a loophole open to farmers or other employers where there is no rent paid and where there is no rent

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book. There is not much point in giving six months' security of tenure if the 1838 Act can be used. I hope that the Minister will examine this difficulty in Committee with a view to altering the 1838 Act.
Mr. Hooson: I think that the hon. Gentleman will find that the 1838 Act has been left on the Statute Book by successive Governments because local authorities have used it to obtain evictions.
Mr. Ashton: I am grateful for that explanation. This may well be true. A provision in the 1838 Act says that the Act cannot be applied when the holding has been occupied for longer than seven years, but when there has not been a rent book the question is whether there has been a holding. I am in some difficulty about this because I do not have any expert legal knowledge, but this is certainly a matter to be considered in committee.
I was glad to hear the Minister's assurance that widows would also have the six months' security of tenure. This is a little more generous than three months' security, but a widow may still often be left in a desperate situation.
A widow came to see me. Her husband had died of cancer, having worked for a farmer for 17 years. The farmer had allowed her to stay in the tied cottage and had applied no pressure. But she is obviously in a difficult position because the farmer needs the cottage for an incoming worker. She has a job and, because the cottage is rent-free, she can manage. But if she is offered a council house and she has to leave the cottage, she will have to pay rent, and, because she is working, she will not be able to claim social security benefits. Her financial position will then become precarious.
It is clear that the wages-rent structure in this sort of farming economy is completely wrong. There are advantages on both sides, of course. If a farmer does not charge £3 a week for his cottage and does not give the farm worker £3 a week increase in wages to pay the rent, both sides do not have to pay income tax. An addition of £3 a week on his wages would probably mean that the farm worker would have to pay tax, and
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the farmer would have to pay tax on the rent income.
Nevertheless, the situation should be straightened out. Proper rents should be paid and proper increases to pay the rent should be given to farm workers. They would then be on the basis of others who live in tied cottages, such as railway workers, co-operative workers, or even the managers of pubs. This situation is a blot on agriculture, and the extension to six months' security of tenure will not stop the bitterness from creeping in. I hope that the Committee will consider this matter in detail and try to make some alteration of the law.
7.53 p.m.
Sir Charles Mott-Radclyffe: I am sorry that the hon. Lady the Member for Wood Green (Mrs. Joyce Butler) is not in her place. Listening to her speech—unless I misunderstood it—I thought that she seemed to be nervous lest the 12 members of the Eggs Authority were not consumers of eggs. She feared that the consumer interest would be under-represented. I should have thought that it would be difficult to find anybody to go on such an authority who was not himself a consumer. I can imagine a marvellous dialogue between the Minister and a number of eminent people whom he was considering for appointment to the egg Authority, with the Minister asking. "How many eggs do you eat in a week? Do you like them boiled or fried?" If they said that they did not mind and that they ate many eggs, anyway, it could be argued that the consumer interested was over-represented. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will define to a nice degree what constitutes over-representation or under-representation of the consumer interest on the Eggs Authority.
I do not want to be unkind to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture, for whom I have a high regard, but I do not think that the Bill is one of the great landmarks in the agricultural story. I defy any farmer who has read the Bill, or Part II on capital grants, or the comments in the agricultural press on Part II, to have any idea so far of exactly what sort of schemes and grants the Minister has in mind, or what the rates of grants are to be. None of us was greatly enlightened by his speech today. His attempt to

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simplify what he said had hitherto been a rather complicated system was not very successful.
Very little progress has been made with amalgamation, with which Clause 33 deals. This is due to a number of reasons. The conditions have been too complex and they have often been too stringent. Very high interest rates have affected the whole set-up. There is a fear, which is by no means an unreal fear, that capital gains tax will fraginentate an amalgamated holding.
For example, if three uneconomic holdings are amalgamated into one economic holding, there are almost bound to be two surplus farm houses. The owner would not want to leave them empty and, if he had no one whom he wanted to put into them, the sensible thing would be to sell at least one as a "desirable" residence. But once he embarks on that process the incidence of capital gains tax resulting from the sale of a surplus farmhouse may often exceed what he gets in grant for amalgamating the three uneconomic holdings. That has been the biggest disincentive to the success of the scheme.
Perhaps the second biggest—and this is something which the right hon. Gentleman has done his best to remedy—has been the unreal qualifying period. It was originally 60 years, but, as a result of representations by the Opposition, the period became 40 years. When the period was 60, a farmer would be 80-plus before qualifying, even if he started farming at the very early age of 20. But even with the qualifying period at 40 years, a man who started farming at 20 would be 60 before he could qualify. The period of 15 years makes much more sense. What a pity that the right hon. Gentleman did not take our advice a little sooner!
Clause 98 deals with tied cottages, to which the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) referred. I listened with interest to what the right hon. Gentleman had to say about this subject. One thing that puzzles me is why this provision is in a Bill dealing with agriculture. If the present legislation in respect of tied cottages needs to be amended, the amending legislation should be in a housing Bill.
It is moonshine to suppose that the problem of tied cottages is mainly, let
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alone exclusively, connected with agriculture. There are about 750,000 tied cottages in England and Wales, about 100,000 of them in agriculture. That is the measure of the agricultural problem. The others are owned by the Coal Board, the railways, the Services—in the form of married quarters—by hospitals, schools, including approved schools and boarding schools, the police, clergy, the prison service.
In many occupations there is the problem that accommodation must go with the job. If a policeman wishes to go to another job or retire, he cannot stay in a house which has been earmarked for his successor. The same is true of a resident doctor in a hospital. The number of examples can be multiplied. The problem is not pecular to agriculture.
Tied cottages are necessary in agriculture as in these other occupations, particularly when livestock have to be looked after and especially when a cowman is needed to milk a dairy herd. If he cannot live nearby, he will not come. A farmer who tries advertising for a cowman and putting in the advertisement in brackets "No accommodation available" will get no answers. We all know this. This is the measure of the problem.
What has to be balanced is what is called the hardship to the outgoing occupant with the hardship to the incoming occupant who cannot get into the house.
Broadly speaking, the courts interpret the 1965 Act with extreme fairness. The National Farmers Union and the National Union of Agricultural Workers each allege that the courts are favouring the other. I should think that was pretty good proof that the courts are operating the 1965 Act with compassion, fairness and common sense.
Mr. Ashton: The hon. Gentleman is right in what he says about tied houses generally, because the National Coal Board, for instance, has 100,000 or more. But will he answer the point about a proper rent structure? The police, approved school employees, miners and all the other people in tied houses have a proper rent structure. They do not live rent-free or at a nominal 4s. or 5s. a week.
Sir C. Mott-Raddyffe: Many hon. Members wish to speak in the debate. Quite frankly, the rent structure is irrelevant to the argument. What rent is deducted from wages by reason of occupation of what is called a tied cottage is irrelevant. It has nothing whatever to do with this argument.
I think that the courts have operated the old Act with compassion and, as is to be expected, with common sense and fairness.
The right hon. Gentleman, for some reason, omitted to mention that the 1965 Act gave the agricultural occupant of a tied cottage a concession, protection, privilege—call it what you will—which was not given to occupants of other types of tied cottage, because the 1965 Act gave the courts power to suspend an eviction order indefinitely. That cannot be done for occupants of tied cottages in other occupations. This is a big concession. A lot of heat is engendered in this argument. I own tied cottages. I have made attempts to persuade occupants of my tied cottages, when a council house has been available, to move into that council house, but nothing will induce them to go.
This has all blown up into a kind of inflammable atmosphere. The average farmer, land owner and occupant of a tied cottage get on very well. Each treats the other with extreme fairness. When somebody dies and a widow is involved, or when a man wants to leave his job and go to another, everybody leans over backwards to find alternative accommodation and leave the widow in occupation as long as possible. But there comes a point when the farmer must have a replacement to carry on the work on the farm. Then he may have to deal with the rare case where, particularly near big towns, a man comes and takes a job as a tractor driver, stays for a fortnight, and then goes off to drive a bulldozer on a building site for £40 a week and still wishes to stay in the tied cottage. That is when the trouble comes, and that is when the courts have to act. But Clause 98 makes no substantial difference to the system operated under the 1965 Act.
I know the problem, and so does the right hon. Gentleman. We all know that unwise promises were made in the election, particularly by the right hon. Member for Belper (Mr. George Brown). This
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is simply an attempt by the right hon. Gentleman to get off the hook. If it takes a little of the heat out of the controversy —and most of it is pretty synthetic, in my view—good luck to him.
Hon. Members on both sides have mentioned the wage award about which we read this morning, which is to operate in February. I think that a far higher degree of intelligence and skill is required of any agricultural worker today, and has been for a long time, than is required of a great many of his brethren working in heavy industry. Far more intelligence and skill is required and obtained on the land than in many sections of heavy industry. Everybody who knows anything about farming knows that this is true. To that extent, I welcome the wage increase. But, as my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke) said, we do not want the only result to be one more turn of the screw, one more repetition of that sickening technique—shortly after the minimum agricultural wage goes to £X, along come the heavy industrial unions saying, "All right. If the minimum agricultural wage is £X, we want another £X plus to maintain the differential." In that event all that has happened is that the agricultural worker, for all his skill, is still on the bottom rung of the ladder, although the ladder may be more steeply tilted. This will do no good to anybody. This is why the hon. Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Hazell) and others must try to persuade the industrial unions to allow agriculture to reach something like parity. Otherwise, merely to increase the minimum wage simply sets off a spiral which will not do anybody any good at all.
The right hon. Gentleman knows that he will, rightly, be under fire from the National Farmers' Union that the increase in wage costs, whatever it is, must be taken into account in the Price Review in February. Many farmers are heavily indebted to the banks. Unless this is compensated for to some extent in the Price Review, workers will be stood off who ought not to be stood off and there will be an element of unemployment in agriculture which nobody wants.
The economy of the industry is not good. Agriculture needs long-term confidence. This it has not got. The credit squeeze has operated very hard, and it is

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to some extent aggravated by S.E.T. It is no use the right hon. Gentleman saying that the farmer pays S.E.T. but gets it back. Of course he does ; but he has to pay it out interest-free to the Government for three or four months before getting it back. If he is borrowing money from the bank over those three or four months, then it is not interest-free. So S.E.T., which is interest-free to the Government but not to the man who pays it when he is indebted to the bank, aggravates the credit squeeze. So in many aspects of farming does capital gains tax. One of the major factors in removing any feeling of long-term security from agriculture is the present rate of estate duty in relation to the value of agricultural land. The right hon. Gentleman may look surprised. He ought not to be. He ought to be briefed by his Department about this. For instance, a 300-acre owner-occupied arable farm, which is the minimum viable unit for that kind of farming, where the owner has no capital invested except in the farm, is sunk when he dies because his widow will have to pay a rate of estate duty which will fragmentate it. So, when that man dies, the viable holding will go. The only security that he has is during his lifetime. There is no security for his widow.
These are some of the matters about which the right hon. Gentleman should think carefully. These are some of the chilly winds that are blowing across the agricultural community. The farmer wants security. He wants to feel that he can plan long. The right hon. Gentleman exhorts more efficient farming in one breath, but much of his legislation and much of the legislation of his colleagues is going precisely in the opposition direction.
8.10 p.m.
Mr. Peter Mills: Before I move to the main points of the Bill I should like to clear up the issue of the Agricultural Training Board as far as it concerns myself. I fully admit that I was one of the first to oppose the board with all that it means. I do so, not because I am against training, but because 1 am opposed to a heavy bureaucratic heap of nonsense, which is exactly what we had at the beginning. Admittedly, it is being licked into shape, but more needs to be done. I am opposed to any organisa-
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tion which spends nearly £½, million on administration, and which has a chairman who is virtually not prepared to listen to what the industry wants. That is why some of us opposed it, and rightly so, but we are not opposed to training.
I want to confine my remarks chiefly to the egg proposals. The Minister is proposing some really radical changes in the industry, and these will have a profound effect, perhaps more than even he realises. I am not against the proposals in principle, but I am concerned about the time-scale, and what I call the climate that ought to be created for the egg industry to flourish.
With these changes in the support system—for that is what it is—it is vital to create conditions for the industry as a whole, and of course the egg industry, to flourish. I want to give a warning to the Socialist Party, and even to my party, and for that matter to any party that is interested in agriculture. The industry is prepared to accept changes, but there should be no change without a proper transitional period, and without control of imports. That is essential.
Agriculture cannot accept these changes without the conditions that I have mentioned. Indeed, agriculture is not in the mood, nor has it the strength, to accept radical changes without the conditions that I have mentioned. There is time for a change, but there must be certain safeguards, and any further change like this, which is a fairly dramatic one, without these safeguards can only lead to what I call a real sapping of the confidence of the industry. If this is the start of the unscrambling of all the support that we have had, and it is being done fairly drastically, I believe that this is very serious indeed. I am not against it, but I am saying that if the Minister makes these changes he must do something about the climate of the whole of the industry, such as having a fairly long transitional period. and control of imports.
Agriculture has had belt and braces for a long time. It is not prepared to have its trousers whipped away overnight. We must have safeguards until we can support ourselves. This is a serious matter, and the Minister must watch the position very carefully if he is to go on making changes without the proper safeguards that I have mentioned.
Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: This is a matter about which the hon. Gentleman feels deeply, and we have heard him on this subject on many occasions. I wonder whether he heard me say that we were negotiating minimum import prices, and phasing out to 1974, which is a longer period than that recommended by the Rowland Wright Commission?
Mr. Mills: I admit that, but I am sounding a warning on agriculture as a whole, besides the egg industry. These are important matters, and at the moment agriculture needs safeguards. Confidence in the industry can very quickly be sapped.
I welcome the idea of an eggs authority with its prime aim of improving the marketing of home-produced eggs, but I do not believe that it will work properly unless it is given sufficient powers and sufficient finance. It must have enough money to carry out its functions properly, otherwise it would be better not to have it at all. It is no good having a bastard body. It must have finance, and it must work properly, otherwise there will be no future in it.
I regret that there is no mention of any Government assistance for support buying. This is not a step that one can take lightly or encourage, but I should like to have seen the power there for this to be done when it was expedient in the interests of the producer and the consumer.
I am glad that the Minister mentioned minimum import prices. I believe that this is right, for surely a reduction in subsidy must be tied to some sort of import control. This is only fair to the producer, and is in the interests of the consumer as well.
I regret that there is no mention of any target price in this new set-up, an annual determination of what should be the fair price, taking into account the extra costs. It is important year by year to give industry a guide to production costs, and what is roughly the target price for the industry.
I regret that there is no real mention or encouragement of the contract system. This may come out later. This may be the work of the authority. I believe in the contract system. It is important for the small producer, because it gives him strength if he is prepared to work in
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co-operation with others, and it guarantees a steady flow of eggs to the consumer.
I regret, too, that no real emphasis is placed on the problem of egg products. I believe that these are the products of the future, and that the demand for them will continue to grow as housewives demand eggs in a convenient form. In this connection, it is important to control the import of egg products. The Egg Marketing Board has done its best—it has made mistakes—to put the egg product industry on a proper basis, and I hope that the authority, too, will encourage this.
I believe in an eventual free market, but, bearing in mind the long period of support that the industry has had, there must be a proper transitional period between the ending of the egg board and the eventual free market. After all, we are having the maximum cut in subsidies, and this is hardly fair to many of the small producers who have spent, and even now are spending, a lot of capital on getting their houses in order and making themselves into viable units. They need time to adapt themselves to the new climate and the changing conditions, and to make contract arrangements. There is, of course, a social element in this—it would be silly to deny it—in the remoter areas, and with the smaller producers, and this needs watching very carefully.
I turn, briefly, to the question of quality control. This again is vital to the industry if it is to succeed. It is vital to produce the sort of egg that the housewife wants, and I believe that quality control should take place at the retail stage. One has only to realise how long the shelf life of some eggs can be to realise how the eggs must deteriorate inside. If this authority is to carry out any work on quality control, that should be done at he retail stage, when checks can be made on quality.
Levies present a difficult problem. They have almost become a dirty word. This is unfortunate. I believe that levies will always be difficult to collect, but, after a lot of thought and research, I have come to the conclusion that the levy should be put on the chick. This is the easiest way in which one can put on the levy and administer it. Chick producers will, of course, create about that suggestion, but that is the easiest point at

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which to put on the levy. The problem is there, but the industry must accept the principle of levies. Just because we have had one disaster it is no good saying that the collection of levies is out. I hope that the Minister can assure us that the levy will be imposed on the chick.
These proposals are probably right, but why not Cornwall? That is almost as far away as Northern Ireland. Why not Wales? Why not Scotland? This is a real social problem. Until alternative ways of earning a living can be found, small producers will be in serious trouble. I hope that the Minister will pay special attention to the situation in the remoter areas. We shall see larger and larger units nearer the bigger cities. That is inevitable. I am concerned about what is to happen in the intermediate stage, before they are fully set up. I believe that just as many social problems will arise for the industry in Cornwall, Wales and parts of Scotland as in Northern Ireland and the Orkneys.
Egg producers can be divided into three categories. I have no doubt that the large producer will be able to look after himself. I am not sure, however, that it is in the interests of the consumer or of the nation to have only four, five, six or seven producers. Real dangers arise from such a situation, not merely in terms of health. It is quite wrong to give grants to large slabs of concrete to set up these units.
The tiny producer will also survive, because he will be able to produce the sort of eggs that can be sold over the farm gate—the brown eggs. He will survive because he will produce the eggs that many people want. It is the small man about whom I am worried—the man with between 5,000 and 10,000 birds. He will be in the most difficult position, especially if he is in one of the remoter areas. That is why I say that there should be a longer transitional period for him to enable him to adjust himself.
He will have two courses open to him. The first is to join with others in a cooperative unit. By this means he will be able to obtain all the advantages of buying and selling, and getting himself organised with others. I hope that the authority will give help and encouragement to this type of producer, so that he will co-operate. His second course is
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to join a much larger private enterprise organisation, where he can contract to provide so many eggs or so many birds.
We shall probe the Bill carefully in Committee. I hope that at that stage many of the problems raised and fears expressed tonight will be dealt with by the Minister. I can assure him that we shall probe deeply many of the matters that we have raised.
8.23 p.m.
Mr. G. B. Drayson: The part of the Bill that especially concerns many of my constituents is that which deals with eggs. They are particularly worried about the transport subsidy for eggs coming from Northern Ireland. One of my constituents is a director of what he tells me is the largest agricultural co-operative society in the United Kingdom which deals exclusively with eggs. My hon. Friend mentioned the difficulties of the egg producers with between 5,000 and 10,000 birds, and said that they ought to join co-operatives. The Yorkshire :Egg Producers Limited—the co-operative that I am talking about—addressed a letter to the Minister earlier this month, and in case it has not yet been brought to his attention I want to quote from it. The co-operative accepts the recommendations of the Reorganisation Commission for eggs, published in 1968, but says:
" There is one provision in the Bill which causes us great anxiety and that is the provision for the reimbursement of the cost of sea passage of eggs from Northern Ireland to the mainland. This will enable Northern Irish eggs to be sold to retailers in Great Britain at a considerable advantage over Great Britain egg packers. For example it will be possible for eggs from Northern Ireland to beshipped to Great Britain ports, e.g., Glasgow, Preston, Liverpool and London, etc. with sea passage reimbursed, whereas we and other Great Britain packers will have to bear the road carriage on eggs from their packing stations to their own subsidiaries in these port areas. One example of this will be that we ourselves will have to bear the carriage on eggs packed by us relating to the journey to our subsidiary…where, from wartime days and since, we actively compete with Northern Irish eggs. Similarly we shall have to bear the carriage from our packing stations to the Liverpool, Manchester and Preston markets…
We most respectfully suggest that this priority payment to Northern Irish packers and shippers is grossly unfair to Great Britain packers, and not capable of justification."
Those are the views of my constituents who will be affected by the subsidy—because that is what it is—given to Northern Irish producers.

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There is one aspect of the new Eggs Authority about which some of my egg producers are concerned. They express the hope that there will be a reasonable number of nominated members on the authority, because they are afraid lest it should fall into the hands of the monopoly producers. The small producer feels that in such a case his interests would not be fully protected. The Minister mentioned the question of minimum import prices. We shall be interested to see what figure has been arrived at. Although there are powers to control imports now, egg producers for many months have been far from satisfied at the way in which these have been operated.
I am pleased at Part IV of the Bill, which deals with fertilisers and feeding stuffs, and I want to refer to some correspondence that I had with the Parliamentary Secretary a year ago in connection with the import of fertilisers.
This refers to a substance called Calseamin imported from France. An agricultural merchant in my constituency went to the trouble of having this substance analysed, and as far as he could discover it largely consisted of sand with about a 31 per cent. calcium content. He wrote to me enclosing a sample of the material which I sent to the Minister. I hope that he has had it analysed. If he has it may have had some influence upon him in introducing this provision. My constituent said:
"This material works out at £15 6s. 8d. per ton delivered to the farm. As you can see it is hardly equal to one-third of a ton of ground limestone which we deliver and spread in this area, after deduction of the lime subsidy, at from 17s. to 18s. per ton."
I understand that Calseamin is from France and it seems to be a great pity, that we should be spending foreign currency on this particular substance.
Mr. A. W. Wiggin (Weston-superMare): Calseamin is based in my constituency, and it has made representations to me on the fact that the analysis used for ordinary fertilisers does not apply to its product. I would ask my hon. Friend to bear this in mind and to recognise that, perhaps, if the Ministry tries this product out it will not be necessary to make an issue of its chemical constituents.
Mr. Drayson:I am glad that my hon. Friend has had an opportunity of putting his remarks on record. Perhaps when the Bill is passed, if the Minister has not tested this substance in the past, he will do so. It appeared to my constituent that to pay £15 a ton in foreign currency for a commodity about which he was doubtful was something to be avoided.
In his reply the Parliamentary Secretary said that the Government did not pay any contribution towards the farmers' purchases of this product and added:
"…but there are no grounds for prohibiting its import and offer for sale If in fact the product is not worth the price the remedy is in the farmers' own hands."
Of course the remedy was not in the farmers' hands then. They could have it analysed, but few farmers go to that trouble. The remedy may exist in future.
Poultry breeders have brought to my attention a matter concerning feeding stuffs. A constituent of mine was very surprised to learn a little while ago that chicken droppings were incorporated in a compound feed which he was buying from his poulterer. I do not know whether it was done deliberately but one naturally wonders what else is incorporated in this product. Part VI of the Bill will deal with this.
I have been asked by my hill farmers to bring a matter concerning the single capital grant scheme to the attention of the Minister. Under the present regulations, drainage grants provide that drains should be laid rather farther apart than the farmers in my constituency on certain land have been accustomed to do. They have suggested that as they are paying part of the cost of the work, if they decide, with their knowledge of the land, that drains should be closer together, they should be allowed to do this and receive the full grant.
While there are a number of useful features in the Bill, it does not meet the needs of agriculture nor does it contribute much to the selective expansion about which the Minister talked. It will require close scrutiny in Committee. Like so many Government Measures it does not get to the root of the problem.
8.35 p.m.
Mr. R. J. Maxwell-Hyslop: There are a number of points about what

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is and what is not in the Bill which I wish to draw to the attention of the Minister. Eggs are being taken from the umbrella of the 1957 Act but in his speech recommending this Bill the Minister did not describe to the House what the effect on the remaining provisions of the 1957 Act would be.
Let us take the provision for Special Reviews. If there is an increase in costs of the specified percentage, for review commodities, a Special Review can be demanded. But as I understand it—and I am open to correction by the Minister in winding up the debate if I am wrong—the effect of taking eggs out of the umbrella of the 1957 Act is that a massive increase in the costs of poultry food will no longer count as a component in agricultural costs for the purposes of a special review. It follows as night follows day.
If that is so, the Minister should state it clearly. Whereas lie may be thinking of egg production in terms of a massive factory-egg farm, to many people egg production is still a part of a balanced agriculture. It is still a significant proportion of the income of a balanced agricultural enterprise. If there is a massive increase in the cost of chicken food, the balance of the agricultural enterprise is destroyed, but the farmer has no recourse to the specific remedies put into the 1957 Act by a Conservative Government. My predecessor in the House, Lord Amory, as Minister of Agriculture, was responsible for putting that specific protection into the Act. This is not a change which we should pass over as if it does not matter, least of all at a time when agriculture is almost unable to get credit at any price or, if it can get credit, has to pay a price which no profit which it can possibly produce will service.
Clause 66 deals with
" Enforcement authorities and appointment of inspectors and analysts ".
The last time Devon Members of Parliament met Devon County Council, the latter stressed the urgency of not passing more legislation which placed further costs upon local authorities without providing them with any extra source of income to meet those costs. Many of the roads in Devon are literally falling into potholes and disrepair. They are breaking up, such is the shortage of funds
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for road maintenance following the Government's cut-back. Every time the House, which means the Government, passes legislation which imposes more and more expense on local authorities for which they are stautorily bound to allocate funds, something else has to suffer—welfare services for the old, the roads or something else. No one should imagine that by Clause 66 we can impose additional expenses on local authorites, with no extra source of income, without something else being cut back. It is fair to throw the ball back into the Miniser's court, and to ask him what he thinks ought to be cut back.
We should also note that under Clause 100 the proposals for financing the Agricultural Training Board mean that those who derive no benefit whatever from the board, and who are probably in a worse financial position than any other agricultural producer—the one-man farmers—will pay partly for the training board. It is to be financed out of the Price Review fund. This means that it is not only those who employ labour and who hypothetically derive benefit from the board who will finance it. Let it be stated openly that it is now to be financed partly by those who derive no benefit from it whatever and that the board is partly to be financed by these people, allegedly for the benefit of their better-off competitors. Let no one tell us that the majority of farmers have voted for this board, because they have not. The ordinary farmer has had no vote in the matter. It has been done by county delegates to the National Farmers' Union in London. It has not been subjected to the votes of the ordinary farmers. Do not let anyone tell us the monstrous lie that the majority of farmers are in favour either of the existence of the Agricultural Training Board as things stand, or of its being financed in this way, for there is no justification for anybody advancing such a view.
The Bill bristles with Statutory Instruments. The disadvantage of such a Measure is that whereas if the Minister's proposals had been written into the Bill explicitly, they could have been amended in Committee or on Report, that cannot happen to Statutory Instruments. I have with me a letter from the Road Transport Industry Training Board to a constituent agreeing that he is being unjustly treated

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but bewailing the Board's powerlessness to do anything about it. It writes:
" We regret that the relevant legislation makes no provision for any exemption from the terms of the levy order, nor does it allow for any abatement of levy."
Under the Bill the Minister—he is not the only Minister to do this—will produce an Order. It will probably contain a number of matters which had not previously occurred to him and which, along with other issues, are criticised by hon. Members. Having put the Whips on, he will say, "Unless hon. Members vote for the whole Order, they will not get any of it. It is not subject to amendment." For this reason it is highly undesirable for the Government to introduce a Bill so many provisions of which depend on action by Statutory Instrument for their implementation.
At one point I began trying to count how many potential Statutory Instruments were lurking in the Bill's 102 pages. I had to give up because of shortage of time. Does the Minister know how many? I would be surprised if he could answer me off the cuff, although I will willingly give way if he wishes to do so. I do not see any athletic movement on the Government Front Bench, and I do not blame the Minister, because to find the answer to my question would be a Herculean task.
Delegated legislation has become one of the banes of existence these days. Indeed, it has become more powerful than the Ministers who introduce Measures. However, Ministers have the power to withdraw Orders, amend them and reintroduce them, as was done with the Instrument applying to the Agricultural Training Board. But on that occasion the House rose in a dramatic revolt. That, for many reasons, is rare, the main reason being the shortage of time in the House for re-laying Statutory Instruments.
When a miscellaneous provisions Measure of this kind is before us, the Minister has the duty to do his legislating overtly, in the Bill, and not covertly, hiding behind the sort of procedures to which I have referred and to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber) referred and by which we must wait to see the form in which Orders will be laid.
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Even at this late hour the Minister should try to reduce the number of Statutory Instruments to which the Bill is to be the bastard father, and give birth to some children whom we can examine before we christen them.
8.44 p.m.
Mr. A. W. Wiggin (Weston-super-Mare): I find the Bill a tasteless dish, which is not surprising when one considers that the main ingredient is eggs, flavoured with a dash of maize and flood water.
The provisions relating to the new Eggs Authority lead one to ask why the Egg Marketing Board failed in its functions. The answer is twofold. First, far too small a proportion of eggs were being handled by the board and, secondly, the powers under which the board operated were not substantial enough from the first instance. I accept that the blame for that may not be entirely attributable to the present Administration.
The new authority's assistance in the market must be strong and must be seen to be strong, and the finance must be readily and quickly available. I was interested to hear my right hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber) reading a letter from the N.F.U. in which a Government financial contribution to support buying was definitely one of the conditions.
The question of minimum import prices has been bandied about in the political arena but what matters to the egg producer is the level at which the Government of the day is to cast them. This is what the argument must be about. I urge the Government to make sure that these minimum import prices apply. The damage that was done to the barley market last month by the temporary slipping of a quantity of grain into the country below the minimum import price was serious, and if a similar thing happened with eggs the effect on producer prices could be disastrous, and enormously important to a large number of people.
I was interested to hear the suggestion about the levy made by my hon. Friend the Member for Torrington (Mr. Peter Mills). The difficulty here lies in the small producer. the backyard man, the person who sells brown eggs over the gate because although the vast quantity of

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eggs is not produced by him it is increasingly the wish of the public to buy his eggs and their value rises all the time.
What interests me most is the simplification of bureaucracy in Part II. That is a most commendable object, but I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) that Government by Order is rather a two-edged sword. Many farmers would like to know how the Minister proposes to bring about this streamlining ; how he intends to cut out or cut down the vast quantities of paper work, the time wasted in inspection, and the multitude of checks, perhaps for even a single order.
The right hon. Gentleman quickly reeled off a number of schemes, but I could not make a note of them all. However, I was horrified, as were other of my hon. Friends, to hear that there will be no more allowances for tractors and combines. When we were in power we had the most sensible method of assisting capital investment—the capital allowance. The tax inspector agreed the accounts, and made the allowance. That method encouraged investment by the high taxpayer and, above all, it helped to provide capital. Judging by some of the utterances of hon. Gentlemen opposite, one wonders whether capital is any longer important, but we know that it is the lifeblood of the country. It is desperately short in agriculture and the Government of the day must encourage capital investment by all possible means, as this will help to preserve the industry for the future.
In my part of the West Country the flood warning provisions will be greatly welcomed. The disastrous floods of the summer of 1968 are still very much in everyone's mind there. I would welcome any further assistance which the Minister might be able to make not only for warning systems and their financing, but for flood protection, particularly where flash floods can occur.
May I mention two matters under Part VII, the miscellaneous provisions. The first is the inclusion of maize under the brief for the Home-Grown Cereals Authority. I am not clear what thinking lies behind the Clause, but, if I am right in thinking that the Ministry wishes to see maize or alternative crops to continuous barley and wheat being grown, it
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would be highly desirable for such other crops as beans and rape also to be included in the brief of the Home-Grown Cereals Authority, which could best deal with these crops.
I am sure that farmers are most hurt by the unpleasantness that is inevitably involved in an eviction. I have never had to do this, but I know that it is a most unpleasant business. The protection under Section 33 of the 1965 Act, as I am advised, will give the tenant at least three months from the date of the end of his employment, since the eviction has to take place under a county court order, and I think that the question of the 1838 Act is rather a hare. This is not really an agricultural provision, and I am sorry to see it included in the Bill. I understand that representations have already been made to the Minister on this subject by responsible organisations.
The thought that comes to all of us in the agricultural industry when we hear that there is a new Bill is, what will it mean financially to us? Think any way I can, I cannot see that the farmers of this country will be one penny better off as a result of the passing of this Bill, and this I believe to be a great mistake.
8.52 p.m.
Mr. Paul Hawkins: I am glad to have the opportunity of speaking on the Bill, which is about the fourth Agriculture Bill that I have spoken on since I have been in the House, and, to be quite honest, I think that it is one too many. I had hoped that the Bill would have been of more importance to the industry and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Wiggin) has said, that it would produce more cash income to the industry. Although many of the provisions in the Bill may well be useful, that is what the industry needs.
My hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) made an interesting speech. I have served on the county council, and in the last three years we have had to have about 1,200 extra staff. My hon. Friend mentioned the additional inspectors who would be required. and we need to pause before passing Bills which result in more staff being necessary for county councils and Government offices. Although the artificial manure industry needs closer checks,

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I hope that bigger staffs will not be necessary to check the analyses.
I do not know a great deal about the egg industry, but I do not feel that the substitution of an Eggs Authority for an Egg Marketing Board will do much good. I should like to see the total banning of imports of eggs. We produce about 98 per cent. or 99 per cent. of the eggs we need, and we could easily produce 100 per cent. I believe that if we banned all imports of eggs we could do without this appointed authority, which will mean more offices and more employees, and it could well be a burden on the country and, for that matter, on the industry.
I do not believe we should support-buy any eggs. I do not believe support-buying of any food acts properly because of the storage and the trouble of having a surplus hanging over one's head, which is inclined to reduce the price of the food coming on to the market. If one knows that there is a very large quantity of wheat, meat or eggs in store bought by an authority, one knows that it has got to be turned into some form of food, such as dried eggs or something of that sort, and it still acts as a drug on the market.
I wish to refer to the financing of the training scheme. As I think the Minister knows, I was opposed to this training scheme. I am not opposed to the training of agricultural workers. I think that is highly important. We have a diminishing number of agricultural workers on our farms, where each man has to be highly skilled. But the financing of this training scheme in the way proposed in the Bill is very unfair. It penalises the very small man working on his own. I believe that it will not be conducive to saving money because under this scheme one will not know exactly how much is being spent on the training.
I would much prefer to see the scheme closely linked with the education authorities. In Norfolk we have some extraordinarily good agricultural and horticultural training schools. The whole of this training scheme should and could have been carried out by expanding some of our training schools and agricultural colleges in certain places, and putting
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the money which it is proposed to be expended on this scheme into those training colleges and expanding the facilities where necessary, because they are closely in touch with the farmers in their districts who know what sort of training is required. In addition, many large firms concerned with the manufacture of tractors, harvesters and so on are running first-class training schemes for their own men and clients, and they are much closer to the job than this authority will be.
When we come to the change in the financing, to have the money taken out of the subsidy arrangements instead of imposing a levy on the farmers is quite the wrong way to do it. In East Anglia we have some first-class stockmen's clubs which have done a wonderful job. The best way of using the limited amount of money available for a scheme of this sort is to support the sort of clubs that I have referred to instead of duplicating courses as will be done under this proposed training scheme.
I now wish to refer to tied cottages. This has been a very thorny problem in East Anglia for many years. North Norfolk and my own constituency probably is the area where the N.U.A.W. started many years ago, and the tied cottage has always been a thorn in everybody's flesh. It has created a lot of ill-feeling in agriculture for many years. I should like to see conditions in which one could do away with all tied cottages, but one has to look at this question from a practical point of view. If one has a cowman living in a cottage and after a year or two he takes a job in a factory in a small town 10 or 15 miles away but continues to live in the cottage, what is the farmer to do? How is he to have his herd of cows looked after, and what will happen to the cowman who wants to come into that cottage? Though a lot of noise has been made about the Clause concerning tied cottages, I do not believe that it will alter the situation very much.
My near neighbour, the hon. Member for King's Lynn (Mr. Derek Page), I believe resigned, or partially resigned, the Whip because he was not obtaining satisfaction over the tied cottage position. I am sorry that he is not here. I do not know whether he is satisfied with the present position, but I have a feeling that he is not.

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What suggestions can be made to meet the problem of the cottage now occupied by a lorry driver or factory worker and really needed for the cowman? This question is bound up with solving the housing problem as a whole. Until we have sufficient houses in our rural areas I do not see how we can do without the tied cottage in a few places. Although my constituency has very strong branches of the N.U.A.W., with which I am on pretty good terms, I have not found more than two or three cases of real trouble over this problem in the time I have been a Member. I sincerely hope that an improvement in the housing position will enable us to do away with tied cottages before long.
One omission from the Bill that has already been referred to is the question of brucellosis. I hope that the Minister can step up the campaign against brucellosis. It is an important matter, but it is moving far too slowly. I am convinced that if the Minister said that those animals found with brucellosis were to be marked and had to go to the market for slaughter within 14 days there would not be a great outcry from farmers, even if there were no compensation, because as a general rule there are very few brucellosis animals whose meat has to be wholly condemned. I hope that something can be done to speed up the campaign.
Finally, I should like to say a word about smallholdings. My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke) has spoken of his authority's being the largest in Norfolk. I had a feeling that we were.
Sir H. Legge-Bourke: Full time, my hon. Friend's is.
Mr. Hawkins: I believe that that is so. But I entirely agree with what my hon. Friend says about the importance of bare land, as we call it, or part-time holdings. This land gives a start to the man who is not quite sure whether he has enough capital. It enables him to acquire a little capital and obtain good experience, and then he can move up the ladder to a full-time holding if he wishes. If he does not, it provides him with a very good healthy occupation, and there is extra money coming into the household. We should encourage this and not cut it back.
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My predecessor in the House, the late Mr. Sidney Dye, who sat on the other side of the House, was very much in favour of part-time holdings. We have a great deal of good land in our district, but it is land where nobody wants to live—the black lands of Southery, going away to the Isle of Ely, where men live in the villages and want five or 10 acres out in the country to grow crops and keep a certain amount of stock. I hope that the Minister will not turn his face against bare land holdings, as the Wise Committee did.
One of my hon. Friends wishes to speak, and I am sorry if I have kept the House too long. There are many good points in the Bill, but it is not the Bill that agriculture wanted today to meet its problems.
9.5 p.m.
Mr. John Wells: There is little to say about the Bill from the horticultural point of view except to ask the Minister to be a little more specific about the exemptions and changes proposed in Clause 31. Would he expand on what the Minister said?
It is fair to remind the House that not only was the horticultural improvements scheme brought in by Mr. Christopher Soames, but it has been furthered oy Ministers of both political complexions. That scheme is here to stay, and for that reason I welcome Clause 31(2). However, I feel a little sad that the Minister did not use the opportunity when speaking about the Clause to offer from the Government benches a pledge comparable with that given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber) in May two years ago when he told the horticultural industry that if this country were to join the E.E.C. could reasonably expect compensation in any section in which it had not a fair chance of competition. With the horticultural improvements scheme going along its present way, I believe that the glasshouse industry, which was probably uppermost in my right hon. Friend's mind two years ago, can well compete today, but the apple section of the industry is in grave difficulties, as we saw at Question Time yesterday, when two of my hon. Friends were given very unsatisfactory Answers. I therefore urge the Minister to do what he can to match my right hon. Friend's pledge.

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The Agricultural Training Board will not be paid for by horticulture at all. It will be paid for out of the Price Review. Most horticulturists feel that they do not want the board. They would much rather have an expansion of educational arrangements such as has been mentioned by several of my hon. Friends and by the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson). The present chairman of the board, Mr. Basil Neame, who has had a very bad Press, and to whom many of us have been consistently unpleasant, has always done what he could to differentiate between education and training. We must be fair to him in this respect—that in trying to move to the county colleges we should particularly bear in mind the kind of thing which my hon. Friend mentioned when he spoke of courses run by tractor firms, which represent training as opposed to education. Such training is particularly valuable in horticulture where we have far more technical machinery, which is scattered in certain specific horticultural districts. I hope that the newly constituted board will bear in mind the great advantage which can be obtained by using manufacturing firms' schools, at no cost to the taxpayer.
In discussing the provision concerning smallholdings, I go a long way with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke) and the hon. Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Hazell) who deplored the fact that there were to be amalgamations without any new holdings being added. Some of the greatest success stories in smallholdings are to be found in horticulture. I am not at liberty to talk about people's bank balances, but I am aware of a man who paid over £50,000 out of his own money for a farm, having started in quite a modest way in horticulture in a county council smallholding—and that was in recent years.
A great deal of emotive nonsense was talked about tied cottages by the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton). Hon. Members fail to realise that most good farmers want to treat their workers fairly. It is when the ex-worker takes the farmer for a ride that we are in trouble. In horticulture there has been a substantial run-down in the number of workers, and there is therefore a surplus
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of cottages. Most horticultural growers leave the widows of their workers and their pensioners in these cottages. This enables the young farm worker to see that he will get a fair deal when he is old and that his widow will get a fair deal when he is dead. I believe that horticultural growers are leading the way in the proper treatment of the workers in tied cottages.
Finally, I turn to flood warning, which is particularly important to horticulture. Many of us in the South-East live in areas where there is massive urban runoff from the new concrete deserts surrounding our holdings. The rivers rise and fall much more quickly than used to be the case. There is unlikely to be a long-term solution for many years, and flood warning is therefore particularly important to us.
9.10 p.m.
Mr. Anthony Stodart: With the best will in the world, it is slightly difficult to make a tidy speech which embraces all aspects of a Bill which darts from flood warning to the Training Board and from weed seeds going into Northern Ireland to many other things. I have been trying to find a theme in the Bill. Many smallholders produce eggs, but apart from that somewhat tenuous link between Part I and Part III, there is no theme running through the Bill. The Minister apologised for not giving us an Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. I cannot think why he apologised, because that is precisely what he has given us. With all the respect due to its predecessors, this Bill is not in the same class as the 1947 or 1957 Acts or even the 1967 Act, although it was difficult to find a theme in that Act, too.
Speaking with all the objectivity towards agriculture of which a farmer is capable, I suggest that the Bill is quite irrelevant to the assurance of further encouragement to selective expansion which was promised in the Gracious Speech. All that the Bill can claim is that it is the longest since 1947 — 108 Clauses, which, with great respect, has frightened many of the right hon. Gentleman's friends away this afternoon. There is no sign of the agricultural activists on the Labour benches. There is no sign of the hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh), no sign of the hon. Member for Caithness and

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Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) and no sign even of the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. William Edwards). The reason is obvious—they are dead scared that they will be put on the Committee. That is a fate which I dare say the hon. Member for Merioneth appreciates. The momentum of legislation grows while the ability of agriculture to contribute to the national economy declines, and let us be absolutely fair and square about this. [HON. MEMBERS : "Nonsense."] I genuinely wish that I could agree with the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Anderson) when he painted even a faintly rosy picture of the present state of the industry ; I cannot.
I listened on Friday morning on my car radio to a hill sheep farmer from Wales speaking on an agriculture programme and declaring that the hill sheep industry was at the end of its tether. I read The Scotsman on Saturday morning and I shall quote from an article written by its agricultural editor, because I think that he is knowledgeable and probably more dispassionate than I am. He said :
" In the county of Fife, there are 35 farms for sale at the moment, mainly as a result of the credit squeeze …
In Fife and neighbouring potato-growing counties many merchants are cutting back their acreages severely. One merchant had cut his acreage from 700 to 200.
These are just three of the many stark facts emerging about the crisis of capital shortage …
With less capital available from the banks farmers are trying to increase their credit with their suppliers or the marts, but the squeeze is on here, too, and limits have had to be imposed.
How long has this crisis got to grow until it will be too late, not only for thousands of farmers from the hills to even the best of the fertile lowlands, but for the national good at a time when balance of payments is still a national problem? "
To none of those people does the Bill show even a chink of daylight.
I do not wish to add anything to my right hon. Friend's general comments on Part I, but I want to refer to the provisions for the remote areas. If egg production is assessed as an important feature of farming in conjunction with remoteness, there is no doubt that Orkney is right out on its own. The Government have accepted the recommendations of the Reorganisation Com-
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mittee on Transport Costs for Orkney and Northern Ireland.
In his intervention in the Minister's speech, my right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) asked about the remote areas on the mainland. My hon. Friend the Member for Skipton (Mr. Drayson) referred to the letter which has been sent to the Minister by the Yorkshire egg producers and there is no need for me to refer to it. But if Yorkshire will find difficulty in selling eggs in the London market, what about Buchan in the north-east of Scotland, Galloway, Cornwall and Wales, to take four examples?
Mr. Hooson: What about Anglesey?
Mr. Stodart: If remoteness together with the importance of egg production is taken within the spectrum of general farming, the north-east of Scotland will probably be harder hit, because of remoteness, than any other part of Britain —because of its remoteness and because of the enormous importance of egg production in its brand of farming. Farmers there will clearly face very hot competition from eggs from Northern Ireland in the central belt of Scotland.
That is why I intervened in the right hon. Gentleman's speech to ask him whether he could give certain figures. I do not think that the transport subvention is a Committee point. It transcends the Committee stage in importance. That is why I shall give one or two figures, with some of which I have been provided and others of which I have worked out. They are extremely significant.
I am thoroughly in favour of competition, provided that it is fair. I am extremely doubtful about whether the effect of this transport subvention will be fair for those who have to compete with these producers. What is the cost of getting a case of eggs from Banff, which produces as many eggs as the Orkneys, to Glasgow? The answer is 2s. What is the cost of transporting a case from Belfast? The answer is 2s. The distance is almost the same.
The numbers of cases of eggs involved in this transport subvention are as follows. From Northern Ireland 3·3 million a year : from Orkney 50,000. If the £300,000 mentioned in the Bill is to

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be the total transport subvention, the overall average per case is almost 2s. Even if the subvention to Orkney—this may well be so, and I hope it is—were doubled, its 50.000 cases within the global 3¼ million would not change the overall payment at all significantly. This must mean, therefore, that eggs from Belfast will be landed into Glasgow, carriage paid.
Frankly, I think that this is overdoing it a bit. I accept the need for a transport subvention, and I see the Minister's difficulty. Once he gets on to the mainland and tries to draw lines between counties, I do not think that he will be able to contain it. But, with all the difficulties that I foresee for these overseas producers, if that is how I might describe them, we ought not to make it excessively difficult for people who are far away from the markets to whom eggs are an important part of their agricultural economy. No wonder the farmers in North-East Scotland are perhaps more worried than those anywhere else by what lies ahead for them as a result of this legislation.
I am absolutely convinced that if these new proposals are to have any chance of success there has to be a real and genuine demonstration by the Government, much more sincere and vigorous than we have had hitherto, of their determination to control imports and to maintain a sensible and realistic minimum price. The way that they have fiddled about with cereals must be putting fear into the hearts of many egg producers. Unless a minimum price system is applied with more determination than the Government have so far shown, I do not think that the scheme will work. Nor will it work unless there is participation by the Government in support buying.
I do not think that Part I could in any conceivable way be reconciled with an expansion programme without these conditions being fulfilled.
On Part II, I agree with my hon. Friends the Members for Westmorland (Mr. Jopling) and Galloway (Mr. Brewis) that a tremendous amount of explanation is needed before I shall feel happy about it. I think that the Minister is asking for a blank cheque on this part. It is true that paragraph 68 of the explanatory and Financial Memorandum states that no
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change is expected in the expenditure of about £35 million a year, and the right hon. Gentleman confirmed that this afternoon. But the provisions of Part II are entirely enabling in character. It may be that I have got a deeply suspicious mind, but I am not wildly impressed—[Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman should not get desperate when he is getting knocked about like this. But I am not wildly impressed by the simplifications claimed for this new system.
I gather from the Minister that there is to be a single general rate of grant and that many of the existing eleven will have to be moved either up or down. Indeed, at the moment one has percentage and acreage rates featuring in the grants, and I should like the right hon. Gentleman to explain how one reconciles these.
My hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland expressed surprise at the ploughing grant being in the list of eleven. If ploughing is in, why is the winter keep acreage one out, because they sit next to one another in the present guarantee White Paper table. What has happened to the winter keep grant?
I was astounded by the casualness of the right hon. Gentleman in announcing, rather like a throw-away line, that £10 million worth of investment grant is to disappear. The swiftness with which it has been done alarms me considerably about this part of the Bill.
Mr. Ross: I want to make sure that I heard the hon. Gentleman aright. Did he say £10 million?
Mr. Stodart: Yes. That is the amount of investment grant. That was the figure to which I thought the Minister was referring, but if I misunderstood him I am sure that the Secretary of State for Scotland will explain it. Will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that instalments of grants which are still due—because some of them are paid in two parts—will be honoured, despite what the Minister said this afternoon.
As regards amalgamation grants, and the change from 40 years to 15 years, will the new condition be made retrospective to cover agreements which have already been come to? I think that there is a strong, fair, and reasonable case for that provision applying to them.
On Part III, I listened with the greatest attention to the speeches of my hon.

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Friend the Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke) and the hon. Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Hazell). I agree with my hon. Friend that the Wise Report merited a debate before we embarked upon the Bill this afternoon. There seems to be an apparent anomaly between Clause 45, which deals with smallholdings, and Clause 29, which deals with grants. Under Clause 29 the existing criterion for grant aid, that the improvement must be for the benefit of the land, is to disappear. It will now be based on the agricultural business. But in Clause 45 the benefit to the land is one of the main considerations which authorities must bear in mind when they are grant-aiding smallholders. Why the anomaly between these two Clauses?
We shall want to take a pretty sharp look at the intentions behind Clause 44.
On Part IV, my only criticism at the moment is largely of a Committee nature. It is right that the analysis of foodstuffs and fertilisers should receive this statutory recognition. It seems, however, that the Government have allowed themselves to think that a ton of bulk feedingstuffs is something like an hermetically sealed tin on a shelf in a shop. I do not need to detail the many outside agencies which can interfere with the one and not with the other. I think that the Government are going too far in suggesting that manufacturers or last sellers should be put in the dock because something which has been lying under bad conditions for six months is not up to its original warranty. Nor do I see why an inspector should be allowed to analyse material in my farm steading unless I ask him to do so, although if I have a complaint it is eminently desirable that he should be available. I am glad that statutory recognition is being given in this matter. All I can say is that the Bill presented by the Government would be right out of the usual pattern if it contained no Clauses entitling inspectors or officials to enter private property.
I have nothing to say on Parts V and VI. We shall certainly wish to discuss Clause 98, in Part VII. The right hon. Gentleman described his intentions here as striking a fairer balance. I recall remarking, on Clauses about Scottish security of tenure in another Bill, that I believed that the wisdom of Solomon was
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needed to arrive at a solution which would give fair and reasonable consideration to each side. The hon. Member for Norfolk, North would not agree with that. He sees the matter as comparatively simple. He says, "Do away with the tied house." I thought that the comment of the vice-convenor of the Labour Committee of the National Farmers' Union of Scotland was one which we would be well advised to follow when thinking about this matter in Committee. He said, the other day :
" In our experience there have been no complaints in Scotland from farm workers over the present position regarding tied houses. …Nevertheless, we recognise that the subject of tied cottages is a most emotive one and the union will examine the new proposals most carefully and sympathetically."
If that is the attitude that we take up we shall be adopting the right approach to this matter.
Many things have been said about the Bill. I shall say no more on that line. It will obviously occupy us for some time in Committee. The Secretary of State would wish me to give the assurance that we shall do our best, in the Opposition, to scrutinise it in the same sort of way as, when he was in Opposition, he scrutinised Bills.
9.32 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. William Ross): That means that the Bill will have a very speedy passage through Committee.
I have been very disappointed and not a little amused by the debate. Many hon. Members opposite have said that this was a terrible Bill and have then gone on to say, "There are many important points in the Bill. We agree with this, we agree with that, and we agree with the next thing ". The right hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber), who finds it easy to be disagreeable in agriculture debates, was sorely put to it today. He was not his usual self. My feeling is that many people would have liked a debate on agriculture as such. Perhaps they thought that it was a little too early to start a Price Review debate. Had it been a month later we might have had that. I propose as far as possible to deal with the Bill and with the important points that have been raised.
There is no doubt that one of the most important parts is Part I, concerning

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eggs. The right hon. Member said, "You did not give any warning to the industry. You did not have a mandate for this ". I wonder what kind of a mandate he had in 1958, when the tenant farmers of Britain lost their security of tenure. That is beside the point. What happened was that we were faced with reports about this industry that no Government could ignore.
People were by-passing the Egg Marketing Board, and complaining about the packing stations. I think that nearly 50 per cent. of the eggs were not going there. One cannot ignore such a situation. The egg industry has undergone a profound technological and structural change, a revolution, in recent years. The number of producers registered with the board, after reaching a maximum of 454,000 in 1962, had fallen to about 194,000 by 1968. The number of commercial producers is probably now only about 75,000.
We have had indications of concern about this and the changed structure of the industry in other debates in the House. With the agreement of those concerned, we set up a Reorganisation Commission in 1967. It reported, I think, in 1968, and we are now dealing with the policy outlined by my right hon. Friend in the House last January. So it is wrong to say that the industry did not know anything about it or suggest that we should do nothing about the situation. I think that one of my hon. Friends put his finger on the truth of the matter when he said that it would have been all right if the right hon. Member for Grantham had been introducing this, but that it was all wrong for us to do so, that he would have welcomed our going even further than this and tearing up our whole agricultural policy and introducing a new one. The right hon. Gentleman was not so hot today.
What we have done, after discussions with the Egg Marketing Board and all concerned, is to put forward the new Eggs Authority. We have made it clear that there will be a certain measure of financial support from the Government for certain of the functions of the new authority. But support-buying and the more commercial aspects are rightly a matter for the industry, especially bearing in mind the changed nature of the industry.
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It has been suggested that we should have continued the guarantees. This would have been quite wrong in the light of the report. It has also been suggested that we should have turned to the actual support-buying. But this, too, would have been quite wrong. I am satisfied that the industry and the consumer will benefit from what has been proposed.
Several hon. Members raised the question of the equity of providing a transport subvention for Northern Ireland and the Orkneys. The simple fact is that egg production is a major element in the agricultural economy of Northern Ireland, which has a tremendous export trade in eggs. If it is put at a disadvantage compared with areas on the fringes of the main market, we shall not be doing our duty in the proper supervision of agriculture throughout the United Kingdom.
The same is true of the Orkneys. I think that it was the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) who asked, "What about Shetland?" I hope that he asked his right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), who would have given him the answer.
Mr. Hooson: I did.
Mr. Ross: The answer is that it does not export any great quantity of eggs by sea.
Mr. Hooson: Why should the few producers of Shetland be at a disadvantage against the many producers of Orkney?
Mr. Ross: They are not at a disadvantage. They can sell their eggs locally, whereas it is a matter of considerable commercial concern to Orkney, although it is true that even its production is declining. One must remember that eggs are not produced in Belfast. The Northern Ireland farmers have to deal with transport and handling to the docks and very often there is much further handling at the arrival point and transport from there. That is equally true of Orkney. The hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Stodart) said that we should deal with this on Second Reading. I think that it is a committee point whether or not we look at other mainland areas which are distant. But when we do so, let us take into account how much they depend on getting the eggs to the larger markets.
Mr. Stodart: Can the right hon. Gentleman at least confirm whether the figures I quoted are correct?
Mr. Ross: Not without notice. The hon. Gentleman quoted them only in his winding up speech.
I dealt with the point made by the right hon. Gentleman about the guaran- tee warning. There was adequate warning. As he well knows, we are giving an additional two years for the tapering-off process. It is to take until 1974. I have had apologies from several hon. Members who are unable to be present during the reply, and I appreciate their courtesy. One hon. Member has suggested that this is the thin end of the wedge ; but that is not true. We have no plans for removing any other commodities sharply and suddenly from the guarantees. Eggs are a case on their own. It was the circumstances of the industry that inevitably led us to take this action. It should not be taken as the thin end of the wedge.
Mr. Godber: I do not want to embarrass the right hon. Gentleman but he has not mentioned the letter from the N.F.U. I thought that this had some relevance in relation to eggs.
Mr. Ross: I have not mentioned it because I have not received it. If it is in my office, I have not yet received it. I do not want to be discourteous about it.
I am surprised that so little has been said about capital grants. We have eleven grants which are related to the long-term capital development of farm businesses. What we are doing here is comprehending these facilities within one scheme. There will be one form. I well remember the kind of speeches we used to get from hon. Members opposite, particularly in the 1945 — 50 period, when they went around complaining of the number of forms the farmers had to fill in. When they took office they added to the number of forms, so they soon stopped that ploy. But we appreciate the difficulty, and so we are to have one scheme, though not for winter keep. It is not there because it is not a capital grant.
Mr. Stodart: Then what about the ploughing grant?
Mr. Ross: The ploughing grant is construed as capital expenditure, and
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winter keep is regarded as income. The hon. Gentleman had a lot to say about credit and the difficulties of the farmers. I do not deny that there are some difficulties but if there were tremendous difficulties it would be reflected in the take-up of these grants.
The hon. Gentleman also quoted Mr. Robert Urquhart, of the Scotsman, who is a sober, reliable man. But Mr. Urquhart did not say what the hon. Gentleman says he did. Mr. Urquhart was quoting a speaker who had said something. The hon. Gentleman should be more careful. I have the cutting from the Scotsman here.
Capital investment in farm buildings and other improvements is running at a high level. In the 12 months up to the end of August work estimated to cost £64 million was approved under the Farm Improvement Scheme, an increase of more than £4 million on the previous year. In the same period work estimated to cost £11½ million was approved for drainage, just over £1 million more than the previous year. The corresponding figures for the Hill Land Improvement Scheme were just under £6 million this year as against about £3½ million last year.
I trust that hon. Gentlemen opposite appreciate that there is buoyancy in the figures, although I admit that one cannot describe the figures for tractors as buoyant. I appreciate the figure of £10 million that was mentioned in this connection, but the one that I have is just over £5 million ; that is, for the investment grant for tractors and self-propelled vehicles. The figures for this sector have been dropping, but that is not the story applying to the figures for other investments.
Hon. Gentlemen opposite want to know what we will do with the money that is saved. The answer is that it will go into other grants. There will, therefore, be no loss, as it were. If £5 million or £6 million is saved, that will be £5 million or £6 million available to be used for other grants. Hon. Gentlemen opposite should appreciate the help that we have given to small farmers in connection with the 50 per cent. feed formula. Smaller farmers were ruled out from getting some of these grants, and I am

1307
disappointed that hon. Gentlemen opposite did not probe this matter today. I hope that they will do so in Committee, when we will be pleased to give them the facts.
We are considering 30 years of schemes. It is right that this reform should be made and that the whole procedure should be streamlined. I would not like it to be thought that the percentage of grants mentioned by the hon. Members for Edinburgh, West was right. There will be a scale, but we can discuss this and other matters concerned with the grants at length in Committee.
I was slightly annoyed at the way in which the right hon. Member for Grantham grasped at small straws in debating a major matter on the Floor of the House. His speech resembled the sort of remarks one might hear in Committee. What was all this business of questioning phrases like "with the consent of the Treasury ", when he must know that this is routine in Bills? He must be aware that when a scheme is introduced and is given the approval of the House, thereafter the Minister has as much authority and freedom as he has under a Bill which specifies the actual amount. When one wishes to add to or make changes in such a scheme, one is able to do so by this means without having to wait for another miscellaneous provisions Bill. The procedure which we propose is better and quicker.
The right hon. Gentleman went on to make great play with a drafting point concerning the word "prescribed ". If he had read the Bill more closely, he would have found the answer, because the Measure distinctly refers to things being prescribed in regulations ; and in earlier parts of the Bill he would have found out all about the regulations and what must be laid down. I appreciate that it is sometimes difficult to follow the Civil Service draftsmen's jargon, but when one thinks of the sort of language in which some Measures were cast when the hon. Gentleman was in office, he should not complain about the language used in this Bill.
The right hon. Gentleman also got the whole question of rating in Scotland wrong. We are now putting one farmer as against another in a position of equity in Scotland. It is wrong that farmers
1308
with certain types of unit should have to pay more in rating even than industry. It should be remembered that the 50 per cent. derating formula still applies in Scotland. While 50 per cent. relief is afforded to Scottish industry, producers do not get 100 per cent. relief from the point of view of agricultural subjects right opposite. In reaching conclusions following the announcement made by the Minister of Planning and Land, the Government took into account all the factors known to them, including those that have been put to us today. Had we been able to come to conclusions satisfactory to the other side, not an Agriculture Bill but a rating Bill would still have been the right place to deal with it.
There are those who are for the use of D.D.T. and those who oppose it. We have been reminded of the benefits that it has brought to mankind, but provisions for the marking of foodstuffs would be inappropriate to Part IV, which is concerned with commercial safeguards rather than health matters. Pesticides legislation is a separate problem, requiring different treatment, and that subject is now being explored with the parties concerned. The uses of D.D.T., and other chemicals within the persistent organochlorine group, have been reviewed by the Advisory Committee on Pesticides and Other Toxic Chemicals, whose report has been received by Ministers. This will be published as soon as possible and a statement will be made then.
One hon. Member after another referred to the Agricultural Training Board, and I really was staggered at some of the attitudes displayed. We have heard proclaimed in the past the merits of the farm worker, and the need to train him and equip him to get up the ladder, but evidently now this is all to be done on a farmer-to-man relationship. That point was made by the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery. It was also suggested that we should use agricultural colleges, but those colleges do not exist in every part of the country. There are considerable gaps in this provision.
Who wished all this on the Government and the House? It was the agriculture industry itself. It is no good hon. Members saying that the people in Agriculture House were out of touch with those concerned : to whom should the Government

1309
have listened? Right hon. and hon. Members opposite have their briefs from Agriculture House, and they asked us to listen to Agriculture House. We have listened to Agriculture House, and the decision that the cost will be taken into account in the Price Review is probably right. Here I am glad to have the support of at least one Scots Member—the hon. Member for Galloway (Mr. Brewis). This is not a matter to be left to chance.
The tied cottage is an emotional subject, and I appreciated very much the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North (Mr. Haze11), and a Norfolk Member opposite said almost the same thing. We cannot by speeches wipe out the fear that has been engendered over the years. The series of evictions cannot be laughed away or removed by the sort of speeches we have heard today from some hon. Members —and certainly not by the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that the agricultural workers were over-sensitive. With all due respect to the right hon. Gentleman, I thought that he was rather more than unusually patronising when he spoke in that way, and he was being unfair. I welcomed the approach of his hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, West.
We must appreciate the difficulties and the fears involved. That is why the Government took a step with the Rent Act of 1965, and why we have decided to take this additional step now. The Bill does not go all the way : we appreciate that certain safeguards are still needed in some cases. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North will appreciate that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green (Mrs. Joyce Butler) asked whether the reference in Part IV applied to nutrient additives ; for example, antibiotics in feedingstuffs. Yes, the action which can be provided under the Bill can include such a substance. That is only a matter of giving information and letting the purchaser know exactly what is there.
I was asked whether the Bill does not establish too tight a central Government control over smallholding authorities, and I was asked for an assurance that authorities will not be compelled to follow the Wise Committee's recommendations too readily in drawing up their plans. The hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of
1310
Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke) made a rather touching speech about this, taking us back, and he has a considerable hereditary interest in this. Ministers will have a general power over authorities' reorganisation plans so that they may be kept in line with the national farm structure policy, and I gladly give the assurance on behalf of my right hon. Friends the Minister of Agriculture and the Secretary of State for Wales that they will not be unduly rigid in this. The circumstances of each local authority are different, and there will be no question of dictation by Ministers as to what the reorganisation plan should contain, and no insistence on adherence to a rigid plan. The authorities which do not believe that their estates lend themselves to reorganisation may seek exemption from this duty under Clause 39(4), and Ministers will no longer have all the detailed controls which have in the past proved so irksome to the local authorities. People forget that we have so much detailed control, and one of the hopes of the exercise is that we shall be able to get rid of this.
On the selection of tenants, I agree to a certain extent with the right hon. Gentleman, and I interrupted my hon. Friend because this Clause does not apply to Scotland. The Secretary of State for Scotland is the landlord of all the smallholdings in Scotland—1,600 in the Lowlands and over 1,800 in the Highlands. We have been engaged in reorganisation since 1962 or 1963. The hon. Gentleman participated in this, and I took over the programme in midstream.
When my right hon. Friend spoke on the Wise Report he said that he would not insist on formal technical education. We wanted someone with actual experience and to combine experience with the right kind of qualifications. We wanted to ensure that no one would be excluded because he did not have the formal education.
I was disappointed in the right hon. Gentleman's selective gloom. It is worth noting that the cereals harvest is 1 million tons above last year and second only to the record year of 1967, cattle numbers are going ahead, British bacon production is up, between June 1968 and June 1969 the national beef herd rose by 6 per cent. and in the same period calf retentions were up 100,000. We are

1311
doing well, we are looking to the longterm, and I hope that the House will give the Bill a Second Reading.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

AGRICULTURE [MONEY]
Queen's Recommendation having been signified
Resolved,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision with respect to agriculture, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of—
(a) any expenditure incurred by any Minister under or by virtue of that Act ; and
(b) any increase attributable to any provision of that Act in the sums payable out of moneys so provided under any other enactment.—[Mr. Hoy.]

WAYS AND MEANS

  AGRICULTURE
  Resolved,
  1. That it is expedient to authorise any incidental or consequential charges to any tax (including charges having retrospective effect) which may arise from any amendment made by any Act of the present Session to make provision with respect to agriculture to the definition of investment grant' in section 83(4) of the Capital Allowances Act 1968.
  2. That it is expedient to authorise the payment into the Consolidated Fund of any sums required to be so paid by or in consequence of any Act of the present Session to make provision with respect to agriculture.—[Mr.Hoy.]

CATEGORY C PRISON (RANBY ARMY CAMP)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Ernest G. Perry.]
10.0 p.m.
Mr. Joseph Ashton:I should first of all like to thank my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Home Office, for the courteous way in which she has kept me fully informed on this question of Ranby Camp.
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Ranby is a temporary hutted camp which used to be used by the 19 Transport Squadron which vacated the camp and closed it on 1st October. The camp is situated on the main A60 road three miles from Retford and five miles from Worksop. My constituents in Bassetlaw are responsible people and appreciate that there is a need for more prisons, but they ask me to point out that already in this area we have Rampton special hospital, which contains many violent mental patients under top security, five miles west of Retford, and there is a Borstal institution at Gringley five miles north of Retford, and a remand home at Worksop.
The site is no ideal for security if a prison is established there because it is one mile from the Al and only three miles from the main Glasgow-London railway, and it would be comparatively easy for any escaping prisoner quickly to vacate the neighbourhood and be many miles away when the alarm is raised.
Objections have also been raised on Retford Borough Council, and at a council meeting on Monday a resolution was passed by 18 votes to 4 asking for a public inquiry. In particular, objections have been raised in the villages of Ranby and Babworth just about a mile away. These villages have no street lighting and there is naturally a feeling of apprehension. There are also many scattered houses in the area. It is an area which often has fogs in winter and there is a natural tendency, as there are in so many other penal establishments situated in my constituency, for residents to view with some alarm the prospects of another one being added.
There are many alternative uses to which the site could be put. Nobody in the area wants the site to become derelict or to have vandals taking it over and smashing the place up, as has happened in other vacated camps in the region, but there is a feeling that it would be a very good site for a light industry, especially connected with farming. Intensive farming could take place there in the buildings available. They could be used for the manufacture and storage of fertilisers and even the storage of materials in use by the Nottingham County Council, such as grit and salt for the Highways Department.

1313
There are 40 excellent houses on the site which used to be married quarters when it was in use as an army camp, and there are excellent sports facilities there, including football and hockey pitches, a gymnasium, showers and changing rooms. This is in an area where, although it is an agricultural area, there is a shortage of playing fields. In agricultural areas there is always an attempt to use the available land for agriculture. Nevertheless, as the President of the Retford Boys Club Football League, I realise that there is a shortage of pitches and there is a great demand for these facilities. The facilities would probably be lost if the camp were turned into a prison.
I have contacted the Minister of Health, from whom I had a reply this week, on whether this site could be used as a training centre for mentally handicapped children and adults or put to some similar use. My right hon. Friend replied that this is the responsibility of the Nottingham County Council. The Nottingham County Council is to build a centre of this description at Worksop in 1971–72. While I realise that this does not concern her Department, I should like my hon. Friend the Minister of State to say whether it is still too late to change the designation of use of this camp and build the centre at Ranby instead.
In my constituency, as in all other constituencies, there are children who are educationally subnormal. Unfortunately, these children have to travel to Rossington in Yorkshire, 13 miles away, which is not an easy journey, and for any child, in my opinion, it is rather too far to travel. Could the camp be used as a centre for E.S.N. children, or might there be some sort of sheltered employment for them there when they leave school? Jobs are not easy to find in the area. The nearby labour exchange district at Worksop has been granted designation as a grey area, which we debated yesterday, and the people of Worksop are very pleased to have that concession. I make those suggestions for alternative uses to which the camp could be put.
It is only fair to add that there are some people who are not altogether opposed to the use of the camp as a category C prison provided that certain guarantees are given. The conversion
1314
would be acceptable to them if guarantees were given, for example, with regard to the landscaping so that the prison and its buildings were not out of place in the environment. The countryside is very pretty roundabout. If the prison could be screened from the road, and a guarantee given that only single-storey buildings would be erected, that would probably help it to be more acceptable. Obviously, there is some fear in people's minds about what might happen if there were outside working parties in which prisoners were employed. We should wish to have a guarantee that there would be proper safeguards taken with regard to such working parties.
I have already pointed out that the nearby villages of Ranby and Babworth have no street lighting. The only lighting in Ranby comes from the light at the local public house : it belongs to the public house and is used to illuminate the car park. If we could have an assurance that the problem of street lighting in these two villages would be examined, and, perhaps, a grant given towards the cost, that would go some way to pacify my constituents' fears.
Another guarantee we should like is that the prison would remain a category C prison for 350 men. There is a fear that in time the prison would be expanded and that the category C designation would be changed so that it might even become a top security establishment like Rampton and grow to much the same size. A guarantee that it will remain of the size at present proposed would be of some assurance.
I have already referred to the existing sporting facilities. Is there any chance of those sporting facilities still being used by outside bodies even though they are within the prison area, or could the prison be laid out in such a way that many of the sporting facilities could be retained for outside use by my constituents?
I am very pleased to have the opportunity of this debate, and I look forward to my hon. Friend's reply with interest.
10.7 p.m.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mrs. Shirley Williams): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) for the extremely reasonable way in which he has expressed the understandable concern

1315
of his constituents about the proposal for a category C prison in his constituency. I hope to be able to answer some of the detailed points which he raised and at the same time set some of his understandable concern and that of his constituents at rest.
First, I think that I should establish the general background against which the Home Office proposal to use Ranby camp as a possible category C prison must be viewed. This general background is, I think, familiar to the House—the serious overcrowding in our prisons today.
To give some indication of the scale of overcrowding, I can tell the House that, since January, we have had an increase of 3,000 in the number of prisoners, and on 15th October there were no fewer than 35,971 people in custody in prisons, borstals, remand and detention centres. I very much hope that this rate of increase need not be taken to indicate that it will inevitably continue, but it is possible—I should make this clear to the House—that there may he as many as 40,000 people in prison by 1972 or 1973.
I should add, since this also is a matter of considerable seriousness, that of the 35,000 persons at present in prison nearly 10,000 are sleeping two or three to a cell. We are not talking here about cells in purpose-built modern prisons in which one might contemplate the possibility of the multi-occupied cell ; we are talking about the situation in prisons which were built in the Victorian age, which were built with a very different concept of what one can do with prisoners in mind, and in which it is not possible to offer proper living conditions even if men were kept one to a cell and if the overcrowding were not as serious as it is. This means that the Home Office feels very strongly that it must establish a number of new prisons. and we envisage that about a dozen will be started in the next five years. They are expensive and take time to plan and build. It also takes time to obtain agreement on their sites. So what we have to do, and feel that we must continue to do, is to supplement our building programme by looking at other suitable accommodation, much of it given up by the Defence Department and other Ministries, to see whether they might be taken into immediate use as prisons. One such case is Ranby, which is typical of
1316
the redundant Army camps we have had to turn to for some of our prisons.
It is our intention that this site, if we obtain the agreement of the local authority, should be used for category C prisoners, and for the sake of my hon. Friend and his constituents I would like to state what a category C prisoner is. They were defined by Lord Mountbatten in his recent Report on prison security. in which he said that category C prisoners were :
" prisoners lacking the will and resources to make escape attempts, but lacking the stability to be trusted in an open prison."
To make the position clearer, perhaps I should add that category A prisoners are those for whom the requirement of security is greatest and category B prisoners are those for whom it is somewhat less. Category D prisoners can be kept in open prisons.
Category C prisoners are largely prisoners who have not committed extremely serious offences. We are talking about a great many people who may be serving a sentence of less than 18 months and who do not require the elaborate security precautions which obtain in category A and B prisons. We believe that these prisoners should be kept within a secure perimeter—that there should be a secure fence to prevent any movement outside the prison, but that within that secure fence they should be given humane living and working conditions.
My hon. Friend asked me for an assurance, which I will give him in a few moments, that Ranby Camp would be used only, as we envisage it, for a category C prison. He can quite reasonably tell his constituents that there is no intention suddenly to change it into a top security prison for category A or category B prisoners.
I would like to refer briefly to the method by which we obtain new sites or a change of use of land held by another Government Department. Basically, when a Government Department no longer needs for its own purposes a site that it owns it offers it in the first instance for the use of other Government Departments. My hon. Friend knows this, because he has consistently made inquiries about the matter on behalf of his constituents. The Select Committee on Estimates endorsed the policy that wherever possible use

1317
should be made of such land for new prisons rather than providing them by the purchase of land in private ownership.
We do not simply take over the site at that point. It is perfectly proper that we should go through the normal planning procedures. In some cases we do not continue our request because we recognise that a prison is unsuitable on planning grounds. If we decide that a site would be suitable—and we have so decided about Ranby Camp—we have informal discussions with the local authorities before reaching any conclusions about the use we shall make of a site. If it is found that on planning grounds it is suitable, we make a formal application to the local planning authority under the "Circular 100" procedure. If the planning authority raises objections, or, as sometimes happens, there is strong local opposition, it is open to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government to say that a public local inquiry shall be held. It is a matter for him and not my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to decide whether or not there should be any inquiry.
I now come very quickly to the particular question of Ranby. We have already held discussions with the local authorities involved that is to say, Nottinghamshire County Council, which is the planning authority, East Retford Borough Council and East Retford Rural District Council.
Last month the Home Office made formal application to these authorities for their agreement to use the site for a category C prison. I do not yet know, nor does my hon. Friend—because neither of us has had a reply—what the reaction of the authorities will be, and I cannot yet say whether it will be decided by my right hon. Friend that a public inquiry should be held. But, clearly, he will bear in mind the views of local people and of my hon. Friend in making his decision.
May I state what we regard as the use to which we should like to put Ranby if we receive such permission? First, the site is in very good condition at present. I assure my hon. Friend that, generally speaking, when a site of this kind passes into the hands of the Home Office for prison purposes, it is improved and not allowed to deteriorate. My hon.
1318
Friend asked about landscaping. It is our view that we should want to take special steps to landscape the site, and we should watch very closely the planning requirements in this respect. We should therefore want to know what the local authorities required and what they wished to see done in respect of the screening of buildings. I assure my hon. Friend that we should do everything possible to meet their wishes, subject to our in no way weakening the security of the prison. I am sure that my hon. Friend appreciates that.
Within that prison we should hope to house in the first instance 100 to 200 category C prisoners who would be used as a labour force—which is now the policy of the Home Office—to make further adaptations to sleeping accommodation and workshops. We should hope to build up the camp to a total population of about 350 category C prisoners. That is the kind of figure which we are approaching in two other category C prisons, one at Haverigg in Cumberland and the other at Northeye near Bexhill. We should wish to use the prisoners to develop the camp.
But we think that the immediate need is for category C prisoners, and for 350 of those prisoners, on the site. Although I cannot say for certain what might happen in the future, because none of us can predict that, the whole basis of our consultation is on a figure up to 350, and we should certainly wish to return to consult the local authorities if at any time there were any intention to go beyond that figure. That is our present intention, and I cannot say fairer than that.
I would make a reference to a point raised by my hon. Friend about the security of the prison. I have referred to the sort of men who are in category C. On the whole these are not dangerous or violent professional criminals. They are not the type of offender contained at Rampton. Many will be in prison for less than 18 months and a few for less than 12 months.
My hon. Friend raised the question of outside working parties as a possible source of escapes. I want to make it clear that it will not be the case that prisoners would be regularly used for outside working parties. They would be

1319
used largely in the prison, except where the maintenance of the prison itself required it. In all situations where there was an outside working party of that kind, they would be properly supervised.
May I refer to the question of street lighting? I fully understand, though we are not talking about dangerous or violent prisoners, that people with young children or perhaps wives at home alone when husbands are on night shift will be worried if the streets are dark. It is not the case that the Home Office can provide lighting, except in roads leading directly to the prison. It may be that some of the roads will lead directly to the prison, in which case we should undertake the task of lighting them. But I point out that the prison will make a substantial contribution to the local rates. Again, this is a matter which we should be prepared to discuss with the local authorities, although I must make it clear that we could not make a direct subvention for this purpose.
My hon. Friend referred to the possibility of the site being used for a school for educationally subnormal children. This is a fairly large site and the number of educationally subnormal children in the area is very much less than the site could accommodate. Moreover, I believe that it is the intention of the local authority in any event to build a centre at Worksop, which would probably be more convenient for the parents of children in this category.
My hon. Friend also asked whether part of the site might be used for purposes of sport and recreation by local inhabitants. I am conscious that if we can show that we are willing to go some way to meet the needs of local inhabitants they may well feel a little better about having the prison in their midst. In any case, good local relations are important for the rehabilitation of prisoners as well as for the establishment of the prison. So far no proposal of this kind has been made by the local authority, but if it is raised with us we shall be very
1320
willing to consider such a suggestion. We should certainly do all we could to try to make sure that this need could be met—obviously, it would have to be outside the perimeter fence—if the site were large enough to accommodate such a requirement.
As I said, we very much appreciate the fact that my hon. Friend's constituents understand the dilemma in which we are placed. We realise that people always feel uncertain and sometimes rather anxious about the possibility of a prison being developed near them.
We should like to stress that particularly a category C prisoner is the kind of prisoner who, we feel, could, given the right circumstances, be rehabilitated and returned to the normal community. We are very anxious that this should take place. If we do not have new prisons and if the existing prisons are desperately overcrowded, this cannot happen.
Finally, I should like to assure my hon. Friend that we are grateful for the extremely understanding way in which he has approached this matter. We are grateful, too, for the understanding of his constituents. We understand their worries, and we will do everything possible to meet their understandable needs and requirements.
Mr. Ashton rose—
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has exhausted his right to speak, but he may interrupt the hon. Lady before she sits down.
Mr. Ashton: I should like to thank my hon. Friend for her frank and comprehensive answers and for the way in which she has explained the democratic rights of my constituents. She has done much to clear the confusion and fear, and I am sure that, if it comes to a public inquiry, my constituents will act in an understanding and responsible manner.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-two minutes past Ten o'clock.

EMPLOYMENT AND PRODUCTIVITY
  Wages Agreements and Price Increases
  Wages Agreements and Price Increases
  Unemployment Figures (Seasonal Adjustments)
  Unemployment Figures (Seasonal Adjustments)
  Unemployed Persons (Mexborough and Wombwell)
  Unemployed Persons (Mexborough and Wombwell)
  Inter-departmental Consultation
  Inter-departmental Consultation
  Family Expenditure Survey
  Family Expenditure Survey
  Trade Union Membership (Conscientious Objection)
  Trade Union Membership (Conscientious Objection)
  Unemployed Persons (Northern Region)
  Unemployed Persons (Northern Region)
  Unemployed Persons (Aberdeen, Banchory, Huntly and Inverurie)
  Unemployed Persons (Aberdeen, Banchory, Huntly and Inverurie)
  Prices and Incomes Policy
  Prices and Incomes Policy
  Prices and Incomes (Legislation)
  Prices and Incomes (Legislation)
  Equal Pay
  Equal Pay
  Unofficial Strikes
  Unofficial Strikes
  Prices and Incomes, Monopolies and Industrial Relations
  Prices and Incomes, Monopolies and Industrial Relations
  Industrial Relations
  Industrial Relations
  Professional and Executive Register
  Professional and Executive Register
  Employment (Scotland)
  Employment (Scotland)
  Engineering Apprentices (Training)
  Engineering Apprentices (Training)
  Easthouses Colliery Workers (Re-training)
  Easthouses Colliery Workers (Re-training)
  Shiftwork (Employment of Women)
  Shiftwork (Employment of Women)
  Average Wage Rate
  Average Wage Rate
  Television Broadcasts (Fees)
  Television Broadcasts (Fees)
  Companies (Espionage)
  Companies (Espionage)
  Company Directors (Salaries)
  Company Directors (Salaries)
  London Fire Brigade (Dispute)
  London Fire Brigade (Dispute)
  Glasgow, Aberdeen and Edinburgh Airports (Strikes)
  Glasgow, Aberdeen and Edinburgh Airports (Strikes)
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Northern Region (Further Education)
  Northern Region (Further Education)
  Primary and Secondary Education, West Riding (Capital Expenditure)
  Primary and Secondary Education, West Riding (Capital Expenditure)
  School Building Projects (Mexborough and Staincross)
  School Building Projects (Mexborough and Staincross)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Northern Ireland
  Northern Ireland
  Fireworks (Accidents)
  Fireworks (Accidents)
  A45, Thurlaston-Birmingham (Speed Prosecutions}
  A45, Thurlaston-Birmingham (Speed Prosecutions}
  Mr. Dirk Nikodem
  Mr. Dirk Nikodem
  Kray Twins
  Kray Twins
  Betting and Gaming
  Betting and Gaming
POSTS AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS
  B.B.C.2 Transmitter, Limavady
  B.B.C.2 Transmitter, Limavady
TECHNOLOGY
  Easthouses Colliery (Redundant Miners)
  Easthouses Colliery (Redundant Miners)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND REGIONAL PLANNING
  Hunt Report
  Hunt Report
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Sub-contractors (Fair Wages Clause)
  Sub-contractors (Fair Wages Clause)
  Government Expenditure (Wales)
  Government Expenditure (Wales)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Egg Industry
  Egg Industry
  Bull and Boar Licensing Regulations
  Bull and Boar Licensing Regulations
  Subsidies
  Subsidies
  Rabies
  Rabies
  Charolais Cattle
  Charolais Cattle
  British Cattle
  British Cattle
  MEMBERS (PERFORMANCE OF DUTIES)
  MEMBERS (PERFORMANCE OF DUTIES)
CIVIL SERVICE
  Civil Servants
  Civil Servants
  THIRD LONDON AIRPORT
  THIRD LONDON AIRPORT
  PRIME MINISTER (B.B.C. INTERVIEW)
  PRIME MINISTER (B.B.C. INTERVIEW)
HOUSING
  Bungalows, Padstow (Subsidy)
  Bungalows, Padstow (Subsidy)
  Council House Rent Increases
  Council House Rent Increases
SCOTLAND
  Housing (Glasgow)
  Housing (Glasgow)
SOCIAL SERVICES
  Committee on One-Parent Families
  Committee on One-Parent Families
  Company Liquidation
  Company Liquidation
BOARD OF TRADE
  Cheese and Curd (Imports)
  Cheese and Curd (Imports)
  United States Aircraft and Components
  United States Aircraft and Components
  Exports
  Exports
RAILWAYS
  Rail Closures (Lancashire, Cheshire and the High Peak)
  Rail Closures (Lancashire, Cheshire and the High Peak)
WALES
  Emigration
  Emigration

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR Oil the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Leicester.

LICENSING OF BULLS IN > ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what advantage they see in perpetuating separate and differing systems for licensing bulls in England and Scotland.]
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, existing legislation requires that the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food must issue licences for bulls kept in England and Wales, and the Secretary of State for those kept in Scotland. The two sets of licensing regulations are, however, broadly similar, and in most cases a new licence is granted automatically and without charge when a bull crosses the Border. I might add that my two right honourable friends, the Minister and the Secretary of State, have decided that it is now right to consider whether the statutory arrangements for sire licensing are still appropriate. We shall shortly be consulting the organisations concerned, and these consultations will cover the case for retaining, amending or abolishing the present system of licensing. Decisions on future policy will be taken in the light of these consultations.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord for that most helpful and understanding reply, and also for the skill with which he chose the words "broadly similar", because that disguised the fact that there are a number of differences, particularly in the "B" licence in Scotland. May I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that my question is not a criticism of Scotland? If anything, it is a criticism of England, who are much more long-winded in the
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two draft regulations which we are now asked to approve. Can the noble Lord move so quickly that the Government could withdraw these two draft regulations now before the House, and perhaps re-lay them in the form of one consolidated regulation, which would be much simpler for all concerned not least the bulls?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I disagree with the noble Lord. The bulls have no difficulty here at all. As for the "B" licence, this reflects a difference between the situation in Scotland and that in England and Wales. As the noble Lord knows, there have not been sufficiently adequate milk records for animals in Scotland until recently, and it was therefore necessary to have an intermediate category of sires in Scotland. It is possible that the "B" licensing system will be dropped, but I understand that that will not help the noble Lord in the particular problems he has had.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, will the noble Lord ensure that when the licensing is reviewed more attention is paid to performance rather than to looks'? It is performance that counts.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, exactly. That is why I ventured to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood. It is because it was impossible to license bulls in Scotland on their performance that it was necessary to have this separate category.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that bureaucratic restrictions of this kind are never any deterrent to Scottish immigrants into England?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I should not have called these petty restrictions. I should have thought that the bulls in Scotland and in England looked much more handsome now, as a result of this licensing policy, than they did some years ago.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that, although smuggling in bulls has now ceased to be a serious matter for the policing of the Border, the way to get a common standard is to persuade the English, in this as in other matters, to raise their standard to the Scottish standard?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, in this matter, as distinct from others, I think the noble Earl is in error. In the first place, there is no advantage at all in smuggling a bull across the Border if in any case he is not able to carry out his natural functions.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that there is little doubt that the bulls are able to perform their natural functions, provided they can move freely, which requires a licence. The real answer is to get the English breed societies to accept Scottish standards on conformation.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I do not wish to pursue this subject, but if a farmer wishes to use an unlicensed bull he can do that, Border or no Border.

DIVIDEND RESTRAINT
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, at a convenient moment after half-past three, I propose to make a Statement on dividend restraint.

MATRIMONIAL PROCEEDINGS AND PROPERTY BILL [H.L.]
3.10 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER): My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill I am conscious that to an unusual extent I have deprived myself of any opportunity of surprising anybody by its contents. There was a time when there was a Bill in another place dealing with community of property, or something of that kind, and I ascertained that the Law Commission hoped by July to produce a Report which would not deal with that—which is a much more complex problem, affecting all married people and not just those whose marriages have broken down—but would modernise our provisions for orders for financial relief when a marriage breaks down.
Your Lordships may remember that on the Second Reading of the Divorce Reform Bill I had obtained a letter from the Chairman of the Law Commission stating what the Bill they were proposing would cover and what it would not cover. As I then said, I had had copies made and
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they were available in my office for anyone who wanted them. Subsequently, during the Committee stage of that Bill, I again intimated that the Report which the Law Commission were promising for July would not assist those under the five-year clause of the Divorce Reform Act because what could be done for them was already done in that Bill, but that it would deal with those who were subject to our then law.
This Report has been available. I think, for the last nine weeks. It arrived. I believe, in July, and was sent off to the printers, and it is in what I hope the House will think is a convenient form, in that it first sets out what are the deficiencies of our law in this field, recom-mends what alterations and improvements should he made and concludes with a draft Bill printed on the left of each page and an explanatory note on the clause on the right. As I said in the debate on the Address, subject, of course, to minor points the Bill which is now before the House is the same as the draft Bill in the Law Commission's Report, except that, for reasons which I then explained, this Bill does not include the implementation of the recommendation that we should abolish the right to claim damages for adultery, and actions for enticement, seduction, harbouring and breach of promise of marriage.
There are two elements in this Bill. First and foremost, it is a measure to rationalise and tidy up a branch of the law which, like Topsy, has "just growed". The maze of technical rules and anomalous distinctions which the Law Commission's Report reveals is the inevitable product of a century of patchwork legislation, much of which was devised to meet the needs of a society now changed beyond recognition. The Bill is intended to substitute a rational and complete code, covering financial provision on divorce and similar proceedings, which eliminates useless and confusing distinctions and does not discriminate between men and women more than the nature of the subject demands.
But this is not merely a tidying-up operation; the Bill also makes some substantive changes in the law which recognise changes in social behaviour to which the law should give effect. The position of married women is very different now from what it was when our

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courts first had power to dissolve marriages. The Bill recognises that the contribution made by a wife and mother to the welfare of the family must be taken into account and translated into terms of money and property if the marriage unfortunately breaks down. Equally, the Bill recognises that to-day women are very much better placed than they were in Victorian times to earn money for themselves, and are therefore now more often in a position to assume financial responsibility for their children and sometimes for their husbands.
Much has been said, most of it inaccurately, about the relationship of this Bill to the Divorce Reform Act. I have emphasised again and again, and so has the Chairman of the Law Commission, that whether or not Parliament had approved the Bill altering the grounds of divorce which is now on the Statute Book and will come into force on January 1, 1971, this Bill would still have been necessary. If we had decided to stick to the doctrine of the matrimonial offence as the ground for divorce we should still have been faced with all the anomalies and anachronisms which this Bill seeks to sweep away. Further, I have always emphasised that the Divorce Reform Act could stand on its own feet without this Bill, because in so far as it enables a deserted wife to be divorced it contains its own financial safeguards. But although neither measure is really complementary to the other, I think the House would agree that now that the Divorce Reform Act is coming into force at the beginning of 1971 it will be convenient for everyone if this Bill does the same and so gives us a completely new start in this field.
As I explained in the debate on the Address, the Bill is substantially the same as the Law Comminssion's Bill, with the exceptions which I have mentioned. As I said, there is not included in this Bill any implementation of the recommendation to abolish the right to claim damages for adultery, and actions for enticement, seduction, harbouring and breach of promise, because although many people—and I personally agree with them—would be pleased to see the disappearance of those proceedings, they are of course controversial and perhaps more suitable to a Private Member's Bill. What I am anxious to see is that this
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Bill reaches the Statute Book as soon as possible. On the other hand, it is clear from the Law Commission's Report that their proposals assume the abolition of the old Victorian remedy of restitution of conjugal rights which they had recommended in an earlier Report; and this the Bill does.
Part I of the Bill deals with financial provision and custody of children. As I have explained, it is based upon the proposition that as far as possible there should be no discrimination between husbands and wives and no unnecessary technical distinctions between the powers of the court in different types of proceeding. This does not mean that the courts will necessarily use their power to make wives maintain their husbands as readily as they will their power to order husbands to maintain their wives. It is still, and is likely to remain, the fact that in most families the husband is economically the stronger party; but where he is not, the court ought to be able to make its orders accordingly. If, for example, a well-to-do wife with means of her own goes off with another man, leaving her husband with the children, he may be in financial difficulties himself and it may be reasonable that she should contribute.
Clause I deals with maintenance pending suit; that is to say, maintenance ordered by the court after the institution of proceedings, to last until the proceedings are determined. The only point to which I would draw the attention of the House is that, in accordance with the principle I have explained, the order may be made against either husband or wife without distinction. Clauses 2, 3 and 4 set out the powers of the court to order financial provision to be made by one spouse for the other or by either spouse for the children. In substance, all the existing powers of the court will be exerciseable without any of the current technical distinctions. In addition, there is a radical extension of those powers in Clause 4, because in effect Clause 4 enables the court to redistribute capital assets on the breakdown of the marriage. The court can do this by ordering either spouse to transfer property to, or to settle it on, the other spouse or a child. The House will see how very valuable this power can be where, for example, the deserted wife is left with the children

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in the matrimonial home. The court could here order the husband to transfer to the wife ownership of the home.
The powers conferred by Clauses 2, 3 and 4 of the Bill must be read in the light of the very important provisions in Clause 5. Clause 5 sets out certain matters to which the court must have regard when making financial provision. I would draw the attention of the House in particular to paragraphs (e) and (f) of subsection (1). In paragraph (e) the Bill expressly enjoins the court to take into account the contribution made by a spouse to the welfare of the family by looking after the home or caring for the family. Here we have for the first time a direct express recognition of the value of the woman's part in staying at home to bring up the children.
Secondly, paragraph (f) expressly mentions the prospective loss of a pension as a factor to be taken into account. I need hardly remind the House of the importance of this: the debates we had on it in the course of the Divorce Reform Bill will be fresh in your Lordships' memory. I need not go into any detail about Clause 6. Under the current law a married woman can apply for maintenance on the ground that her husband has wilfully neglected to maintain her or the children. Clause 6 reproduces this but also gives a corresponding right to the husband: he can apply if the wife has neglected to maintain the children, or to maintain him if his earning capacity is impaired.
Clauses 7 and 8 need rather more explanation. Clause 7 provides for the duration of orders made in favour of a spouse and contains one provision which I think may be the subject of some discussion. As recommended by the Law Commission, it provides that an order for periodical payments is to terminate on the remarriage of the payee. I appreciate that there are two schools of thought about this. It depends upon whether one accepts the principle that, by remarrying, a woman elects to look to her new husband for the support to which her marriage entitles her, or whether one accepts the view that the obligations of the first husband are not superseded by those of the second. There are arguments either way, and no doubt we shall have to consider them at a
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later stage. I shall confine myself to saying now that I think the first principle is right and that the Commission's recommendation is sound.
Clause 8 deals with the duration of orders made in favour of children. Here again I think there may be a point of controversy, because some people will argue that in no circumstances should a parent be compelled to maintain a child who has attained his majority. Those whose marriage has not broken down cannot be so compelled, and it may be said that it is anomalous to give the court these compulsory powers merely because one or other spouse has invoked its aid in divorce proceedings. On the other hand, as a matter of common experience it is the breakdown of a marriage which often leads one of the parents to desist from giving to a child of 18 or 20 that financial support which he would otherwise have given to enable the child to complete his education or training. The Bill comes down in favour of giving the court these powers where the child, although over 18, has not completed his education or where there are other special circumstances.
My Lords, I do not think I need detain the House with a detailed explanation of Clauses 9 to 12. Generally speaking, they give the court extensive powers to vary orders already made, to relieve the paying party against the enforcement of stale arrears and to order the repayment of amounts paid in excess of what should have been paid. I can also pass very briefly over Clauses 13 to 15 (which restate with minor modifications the existing law governing the variation of maintenance agreements) and Clause 16, which also re-states in a modified form those statutory provisions which give the court power to prevent people from getting rid of their property so as to defeat expected claims for maintenance, et cetera, and to upset transactions already made for that purpose.
Clauses 17 to 19 deal with the vitally important subject of the protection and custody of children. Here again I need not go into any detail because, with the one exception that I am about to mention, they re-state the existing law in a more convenient form. The exception is that the definition of "child of the family" in Clause 26 means that these custody orders will now apply to a wider class of

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children. The House will see that "child of the family" in the Bill includes not only a child of both parties to the marriage but also any child treated by them as a child of the family. Thus, if there has been what is sometimes called a "de facto adoption" the court could on the breakdown of the marriage make an order dealing with the custody of the de facto "adopted" child even though there had been no formal adoption proceedings. I should make it clear that no such order would by itself affect the right of the natural parents in such a case, but it would mean that the interest of the child could be safeguarded in their absence.
Clause 20 is the provision I mentioned which abolishes the restitution of conjugal rights as a legal remedy. Those of your Lordships who followed the television serial of The Forsyte Saga will remember an episode when Winifred Dartie was, with difficulty, persuaded by Soames to tell the Divorce Court that she wanted Monty back and thereby obtained a decree ordering him to return. My Lords, this is really an absurd procedure in modern times, and I do not think that anybody would nowadays believe that any deserting spouse is going to return and save his marriage simply because a judge has told him to do so, when there is no penalty for his not doing so. The procedure may have, under the current law, some marginal technical advantage in connection with maintenance, but all that will go when the Bill comes into force and I think we can say goodbye to restitution without any regrets.
Clauses 21 to 27 contain a number of technical provisions with which I need not trouble the House, save to point out that the effect of Clause 21 is to apply to existing orders the "remarriage rule" which I have already explained, so that an ex-wife who has an order for periodical payments in her favour when the Bill comes into force and who subsequently remarries will thereby bring that order to an end.
My Lords, Part II of the Bill contains a number of miscellaneous provisions relating to the property rights of married persons. Clause 28 resolves, I hope finally, a doubt which has existed for many years and has trouble the courts, not least your Lordships' House in its judicial capacity. The question is: to
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what extent, if any, does a husband's or wife's contribution to the improvement of property entitle him or her to a share in it or in the proceeds of sale? We have all seen cases where, usually after a divorce, the matrimonial home is sold and fetches much more than was given for it in circumstances where the sale price clearly reflects the value of improvements made to the property by one of the spouses. The problem has been whether by making those improvements that spouse is entitled to a share in the sale price. Clause 28 says formally that if the contribution is of a substantial nature then the spouse in question is entitled to a share, and that if the husband and wife have not agreed between them what that share should be it is to be such share as seems just, in all the circumstances, to the court.
Clause 29 clarifies a technical doubt arising under the Matrimonial Homes Act 1967; and for the benefit of my noble friend Lady Summerskill I may say that the solution is in favour of the wife. Clause 30 enables the convenient summary procedure under Section 17 of the Married Women's Property Act to be resorted to after divorce, which is at present impossible. Clause 31 substitutes for the current anomalous rule a perfectly clear rule that where there is a judicial separation neither spouse has any right to take on the other's intestacy. Clause 32 extends to magistrates courts' orders the "remarriage rule" which I have already explained.
Clause 33 abolishes the old common law rule, which is of interest only to lawyers, whereby a wife is treated as being entitled to pledge her husband's credit for the purpose of obtaining what the law calls "necessaries". This rule had a place in a society where a married woman could not have property of her own and would, therefore, have no money even to instruct solicitors to apply for maintenance on her behalf. But it has no place in a modern society, where a woman is as much entitled as a man to own property and where, if she has to instruct solicitors and cannot pay for them, legal aid is available. The old rule is not only useless; it is also inconvenient because of its operation in relation to legal costs. This is not the moment to give any details which are fully explained in the Law Commission's Report. I am sure that we can get rid

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of this anachronism, so long as we remember that by doing so we are not in any way affecting the true agency, express or implied, of a wife to enter into everyday transactions on behalf of her husband.
Part III contains the necessary supplementary provisions, and the only matter to which I need draw attention is Clause 35(2). The House will see that this expressly authorises the courts to look at the Report as an aid to construing the Bill. In practice I suspect that in similar situations the courts very often do look at a Report on which a Bill is founded; although technically they may do so only for the purpose of ascertaining the mischief against which the legislation is aimed. I think it is very much better for Parliament to say openly that they can look at the Report as an aid to construction. My Lords, this is an important Bill. It will affect many thousands of people. I think it will enable the courts to do better justice between husband and wife and between parent and children, and I hope that your Lordships will approve of it.
Before I sit down I would say that this Bill demonstrates, perhaps better than any other measure we have so far discussed, the value of the operations of the Law Commission. One of the advantages is discussion. That is what takes the time: but hurried and rushed law reform is not really worth doing; it has to be done properly; it must take time. Their consultations are always extensive, starting with a working paper which is sent out for discussion; in this case to the Judges, the Bar Council, the Law Society, the Society of Public Teachers of Law, Government Departments and so forth. I thought that it might interest my noble friend Lady Summerskill to know that among those to whom it was sent and who were consulted were the Council of Married Women, the Co-operative Women's Guild, the D.S. Club for Divorced and Separated People, the National Council of Women of Great Britain. the National Marriage Guidance Council, the Married Women's Association, the Catholic Marriage Advisory Council, the National Federation of Women's Institutes, the National Federation of Townswomen's Guilds, the Women's Group on Public Welfare, the
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Mothers' Union and the National Joint Committee of Working Women's Organisations. I say this because I think it has been said that the Commission did not fully consult the women's organisations.
My Lords, the subject is a complicated one, and reform in this field has necessitated a degree of consultation and intensive discussion. Without the Law Commission I doubt very much whether such a study would have been practicable, and that is why I wanted to conclude my speech by expressing my admiration and gratitude for what they have done. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. —(The Lord Chancellor.)
3.33 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has given a fairly full explanation of the provisions of this Bill, and he has pointed out that anybody's understanding of it is greatly facilitated by the very full Report of the Law Commission, Paper No. 25. I, too, want to draw attention to Clause 35(2), which I think for the first time expressly in a Statute allows the courts to look at the preparatory material on which legislation is based. This is an important innovation. I think it raises one matter to which I should draw the attention of the House, because it means that the more the Bill is altered in the course of its passage through Parliament the less use will the Law Commission's Paper be in explaining what it means and what it is intended to do after it becomes an Act.
I have no suspicions about the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, wishing to put down widespread Amendments but she said in her speech on the humble Address that this matter was one that should be discussed in detail, and I agree with her. I hope however, that the House will take note of the Long Title of the Bill which is almost unbelievably detailed. I think one reason for that is to make it out of order for Amendments which greatly increase the scope of the Bill to be put down in another place. Whether or not that is something to which we ought to advert here, I do not know. But if we are going to invite the courts, the public, the prac-

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titioners and everybody else to look at the Law Commission's Paper as an aid to understanding the Bill when it is law, we ought to be very chary indeed of seeking to add huge new areas in this House, where of course we are not bound by the Long Title. I hoped that I might make that point, because it is also perfectly plain, from the Law Commission's Paper and from what one knows, that this is by no means the only collection of items on this subject which is capable of, and probably needs, alteration by Statute at some time.
I understand the points made by the noble and learned Lord about leaving out the two clauses on damages for adultery and actions for enticement, seduction and harbouring. I do not think breach of promise was ever in the draft Bill; I think it was somewhere else. It may well be that, with the draft clauses that the Law Commission have produced, some private Member will find it quite easy to introduce a Bill on this subject. The absence of repeals in Schedule 3 to this Bill in comparison with the draft Bill is also the result of the omission of these clauses. I think the only real alteration that has been made is in Clause 5, where one paragraph—that is, paragraph (d) in subsection (1)—has been added, under which, in addition to the other matters recommended, the court now has to take account of
"the age of each party to the marriage and the duration of the marriage"
I find this very interesting, because a little while before the Law Commission published their Paper a research committee of inquiry set up by the Conservative Party produced a paper called Fair Shares for the Fair Sex. This was published in March of this year and that point is one of the many specifically put forward in that pamphlet. I am glad to see that it has found favour with the Government and now appears in the Bill. In fact, a great deal of the general approach which underlies the chapter on this subject in the Conservative Political Centre pamphlet appears in the Bill. It is true that there is not the same suggested division of property into family and non-family property that they put forward, but the power which the courts will have under this Bill goes a great way towards the fair distribution of pro
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perty, at any rate when the marriage has broken down.
My Lords, I must also accept— is of course where it may not be the complete solution that everybody seeks— Bill does not deal with property except after the breakdown of marriage. It was never intended to. The Law Commission did not suggest that this should be done, and there is no suggestion that the Bill deals with the knotty problem of community of property together with the other things in the Private Member's Bill introduced during the last Session in another place. These are very controversial matters, and I think we should be wise to wait for a considerable amount of further discussion and thought on this matter before we sought a solution in legislative form. I agree with the noble and learned Lord that, although the Bill is not a necessary concomitant of the Divorce Reform Act, it would be highly desirable that it should come into force at the same time. I think that is another reason why we should not go into contentious and controversial matters in this Bill by way of amendment.
I join with the noble and learned Lord in the general welcome given to the Bill. If I may I will turn to some other points. There is no necessity for me to go in detail into the provisions of the clauses, but I should like to make some general points and to ask a few questions of the noble and learned Lord. I very much approve—and I am sure that anybody else who has to deal with the subject will approve, too—of the great simplification brought about by this Bill. A great jungle of provisions have grown up, for historic reasons, but now the matter is put into a very much more simple form, and one which it is tolerably easy to comprehend. The other thing which is rather unusual —and again I think it reflects great credit on the Law Commission because this must have been their doing—is that instead of having the dismal collection of legislation by reference, which we could so easily have had, back to the Matrimonial Causes Act 1965, we have had whole sections of that Act repealed and re-stated, very often with exactly the same force of law. although sometimes the wording is a little different; there is no question of hunting to and fro between the law books. The Law Commission and their draftsmen have done it properly this time and set

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the whole thing out in full, so that we can forget the old and read this Act, which is comprehensible on its own. I hope that this is a precedent which will be widely followed by other draftsmen in other legislation.
I approve of the general enlarged powers that the court is being given of avoiding almost all the distinctions between husband and wife, petitioner and respondent, which, as has been explained, are no longer necessary on the social side, and so far as the difference between petitioner and respondent is concerned, will no longer be relevant under the Divorce Reform Act. There are of course exceptions to this, and I think that the noble and learned Lord perhaps did not quite draw out the difference from this general proposition that is seen in Clause 6(1) where, instead of giving complete reciprocity, the form of words used for magistrates' courts proceedings is also adopted for the High Court. The husband cannot be given maintenance from his wife in quite such wide circumstances as those in which the wife can be given maintenance against her husband. The Law Commission, in paragraph 19 of their Report, explained why this is so, and in paragraph 22 they suggest the lines on which our consideration of this matter might proceed. Here, as in other parts of the Report, it is interesting to see what use they have made (and this is one of the things for which they were set up) of Commonwealth legislation, particularly in New Zealand and Australia. The Law Commission have paid a great deal of attention to some of the Provincial legislation in these countries. I believe that the Queensland material, particularly, has been brought in. Therefore we are benefiting from the experience of these countries which have perhaps preceded us in this matter.
I approve, too, of the general provisions that at any rate periodical financial provision are to cease on the remarriage of the recipient spouse. I think that the Law Commission were surprised at the lack of contentiousness they met in this matter. The noble and learned Lord suggested that we might like to discuss it. There are plainly two points of view, but a great deal of discussion must have taken place between the Law Commission and their consultees, and so
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far they seem to be confirmed in their view that this is the right way to proceed. However, it may be that this matter is best left to the Committee stage, and also the question about the children, which was mentioned by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. I do not myself wish particularly to pursue that point either, since I have no objection to it, for the reasons which he explained.
I noted the extension of the definition of the children who may benefit under this Bill. The child of the family is defined, but there is a safeguard that should be pointed out to help the court, in a difficult matter like this, where it is necessary to decide whether, where the husband or wife has accepted a child or adopted a child who is not his own or her own, they have really brought that child into the family. There are guide lines in Clause 5(3) and Clause 6(4) of this Bill, which I should have thought were both straightforward and comprehensive enough to enable the court to give a just decision on the very varying situations that will no doubt occur.
I suppose that there is no question about orders under this provision being appealable, as is generally the case throughout the Bill, so that if there is any divergence of opinion between the judges of first instance it may be possible to go to a higher court, perhaps before my noble and learned friend Lord Denning, and perhaps to this House, in order to get some general standards put forward.
Finally, I approve of the rationalisation of the court's power to vary, discharge, suspend and revive orders, which has been greatly simplified. It seems to me that the right distinction has been drawn between the powers of dealing with periodical financial payments and that it is correct that there should be no general power to vary, after lump-sum payments. settlements and other once-and-for-all transactions of this nature have been made; because these, once done, are difficult to undo, and it may be unjust.
There are some points that I should like to raise on the clauses. Going back for a moment to Clause 5, there is a rather complicated provision which I am not altogether sure has been worked out as it should be. In the notes on page 71

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of the Law Commission's Report they make a point about Clause 5(2). They say they wish to see that the expectations of the children are preserved, but only in so far as these are consistent with justice to the parents. If the marriage is dissolved, the probability is that both parents will remarry, and probably one or both may have more children than would have been likely had they remained married to each other. But it would clearly be unjust to insist on a settlement which would leave nothing to the new dependants.
Then one looks at the subsection. The court has to take into account the matters set out in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (2) and to exercise its powers so as to place the children, so far as is practicable, in the same position as they would otherwise have been, but having regard to the two matters in Clause 5(1)(a) and (b). As I understand it, this is supposed to require a court to take account of the possible re-marriage of the parents, or of either one of them, and the coming into existence of further children. I do not think that that is so, however, because under paragraph (b) it is only the existing responsibilities of the parents that have to be taken into account, not the contingent or potential responsibilities they would have if they married again and had further children. I agree with the Law Commission in seeking this objective, but I am not certain that the wording of the Bill as it stands is altogether appropriate on this point. It is an important point, I think, and one to which we should return perhaps at a later stage.
On Clause 5, I was going to mention the contribution made by the wife to the bringing up of the family and the pension rights, both of which have already been explained to your Lordships. These must be very welcome improvements to the law. I am glad that the noble and learned Lord explained about the abolition of the decree for restitution of conjugal rights. It is not in this Law Commission paper but in the other one, but from the noble and learned Lord's explanation and what can be obtained from the other document, I hope that the change will commend itself to your Lordships, particularly as actions of this kind were brought mainly as a technical ruse to enable the petitioner to do better on
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the financial side. When that becomes unnecessary under this Bill, the whole thing ceases to have any point at all.
In Clause 32, subsection (2) is rather complicated, and as this is one for which we have had no explanation at all, I would ask the noble and learned Lord whether he would be so kind as to explain this a little further when he comes to wind up.
Then I go back briefly to the beginning for two small points, about which I give notice before Committee stage. The provisions for awarding lump sums under Clause 2(2)(a), Clause 3(3) and Clause 6(7)(a) are said to enable parties who receive lump sums to discharge a liability "reasonably incurred", and so on—the wording is common to all three subsections. I am not certain how this may be interpreted. It may be only an example of the circumstances in which a lump-sum order can be made. But if it is anything more than that, it is going to be interpreted as the only example where it is going to be done, and I believe that this is too restrictive. The Law Commission point out the usefulness of an order for a lump-sum payment—for instance, in the case where there has been an order for periodical payments which have not been paid and, on an application to vary the order or enforce it, the courts have found that the simplest way of dealing with this is to order a lump-sum payment, so that the unfortunate wife does not have to go back and back again, seeking to enforce an order which is not being complied with. I believe that the intention is that such circumstances should be covered, but I believe also that the way the Bill has been drafted could be restrictive and could leave out that set of circumstances. Finally, on the detailed points, why are the words in brackets in Clause 3(1)(a) in the Law Commission's draft left out of the Bill, whereas the same words appear in Clause 2(1) and Clause 4(1)? I should have thought that there must have been some reason for this but it is not one which I can understand on my own.
My Lords, there are a few general questions not arising out of the Bill on which I should like some help from the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. Paragraph 42 of the Report of the Law Commission deals with the case of children over the new age of majority,

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18, wishing to apply for financial provisions against their parents. This is clearly an exceptional case, because the general intention will be not to give children over the age of 18 financial provisions. But there are exceptions, and this could occur. The Bill is a complete re-write or re-draft of Section 34 of the old 1965 Act. Clause 3 makes no reference to who may apply for provisions for the children. There is the necessity, I believe, for rules to be made, and the Law Commission suggest that children over the age of 18 should not be allowed, except by leave of the court, to intervene in their parents' divorce suit to ask for financial provisions. I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord can say if rules to that effect will be made.
In paragraph 47 the question of tax is raised. Plainly, this is not a matter on which any assurance can be given, but I would draw it to the attention of the House, since it is made clear that as a result of the recent Finance Act, where money has been ordered to be paid for the benefit of children, the result of its being assessed together with the income of whichever is the parent concerned can mean that the child will receive less of the payment than would be the case if the tax position had not been changed. In these circumstances, it is possible that the person who is paying the money may not be able to pay more to compensate for this amount. He may not have more to pay, or it may be just that there should not be a greater burden upon him. This requires thought by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It has been clearly pointed out that hardship is liable to be caused through a simple change in the tax law without any change in procedures or in the orders which are relevant, and therefore it must be something that should be considered, and I should have thought urgently considered, even before the Bill becomes law.
Then, under Clause 30, the noble and learned Lord mentioned that summary procedure under Section 17 of the Married Women's Property Act 1882 can now be used at any rate three years after the divorce and is not confined to the period during which the marriage subsists. It has been suggested in the Report that the only practicable method would be
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that the powers under that section to deal with the rights of the two parties to property should also be dealt with by the same court that is considering the redistribution of the property of the two spouses. This, I think, also requires administrative action, and I hope that the noble and learned Lord will be able to give us an assurance that he will take such action.
Finally, I wish once more to underline the point that has been made about the relationship of this Bill to the Divorce Reform Act. I am certain that it is right that we should improve the court's powers in all cases of divorce, but it is equally vital that nobody should think that this Bill will improve the circumstances where a party is divorced under the five years' separation section of the Divorce Reform Act. I agree that we need this change. It would apply to give considerably more safeguards in divorce on existing grounds, it will apply under all the other paragraphs of the Divorce Reform Act, and it will make improvements. But it will not improve the situation of the five years' separation respondent. I think that anybody who supposes that it will do so must be disillusioned. That matter has been dealt with in the Act that has now become law.
What we are doing is bringing the remedies for all persons involved in divorce suits nearer, but not so far as appertains to people dealt with under paragraph (e) of the section in the Act. That has been explained again in paragraph 50(a) of the Law Commission's Paper. But there is an important footnote which explains the justification for the lesser powers that will be available to the courts under this Bill, and it might be worth while to read it out to your Lordships in case there are any noble Lords who have not seen it for themselves. What the Law Commission say is what I have just explained about the relationship, but they say also:
"This apparent anomaly is, of course, explained by the fact that it is only in separation cases that an innocent'"—
which will no longer be relevant under the Divorce Reform Act—
"wife can be divorced against her will. In every other case she will either have committed the equivalent of a matrimonial offence or, being the petitioner, will have had the choice whether to be divorced or not".
I think that that explanation shows that there is a justifiable distinction still

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to be maintained in the remedies and in the powers available to courts to deal with all the other cases except that of divorce on five years' separation.
I have great pleasure in welcoming this Bill. I hope that noble Lords in all parts of the House will find that it is satisfactory and that it is well and truly explained, and I also hope that it will have a speedy and successful passage through this House.

DIVIDEND RESTRAINT POLICY
3.56 p.m.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to repeat a Statement made by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in another place. It is as follows:
"It is already known that further guidelines on the whole field of prices and incomes policy after 1969 will be set out in a new White Paper. In the meantime, however, the Government consider it desirable to give the earliest possible notice of the decisions which have been reached on dividends policy.
"The present 3½ per cent. ceiling scheme for dividends will come to an end when the reserve statutory powers in the 1968 Act expire on December 31. The Government gladly acknowledge that on no single occasion has it been necessary to use these powers; and they are confident of co-operation in asking companies to continue to observe the requirements of the scheme in so far as they concern recommendations of total dividends which are made public before December 31. Thereafter, it will remain possible for the Government to require notification of individual dividend increases under Section 12 of Part II of the Prices and Incomes Act 1966 if the need should arise.
"The need for companies to observe moderation when distributing profits will continue. The Government therefore reaffirm the general consideration which was set out in the joint statement of intent published in Cmnd. 2639, namely, that they have pledged themselves to use their fiscal powers or other appropriate means to correct any excessive growth in aggregate profits as compared with the growth of total wages and salaries, after allowing for
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short-term fluctuations. The Government also draw attention to the ability to refer for examination to the National Board for Prices and Incomes cases where the growth of profits or dividends appears to be based on price levels made possible by excessive market power.
"The specific scheme of dividend restraint introduced in the 1968 Budget was a necessary reinforcement of these more general policies, as a purely short-term measure associated with stringent statutory control of other incomes and prices. But with the end of the special powers over prices and incomes in the 1968 Act, it will be appropriate to revert to the more general policies which can combine restraint in the total of dividend payments with flexibility in individual company situations."
3.59 p.m.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, for repeating this Statement, which I think is very simple, or nearly all very simple. We know that the statutory powers on restraint of dividends expires on December 31 and that thereafter notice can be required of any increase of dividend. We are glad to know that the exercise of compulsory powers has never been necessary, since all companies have voluntarily observed the dividend restriction. I think we would also agree that the examination by the National Board for Prices and Incomes in
"cases where the growth of profits or dividends appears to be based on price levels made possible by excessive market power"
is a function which is appropriate to the Prices and Incomes Board, as it was equally appropriate to its predecessor, the National Incomes Commission.
The only point on which I am not quite clear is the immediately preceding part of the Statement, which I think is a repetition of the last sentence in paragraph 17 of the White Paper referred to, Cmnd. 2639, which reads:
"The Government have pledged themselves to use their fiscal powers or other appropriate means to correct any excessive growth in aggregate profits as compared with the growth of total wages and salaries, after allowing for short-term fluctuations."
That is taken out of a White Paper which is now 4½ years old. I had always supposed that that was a purely general

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statement, and that "aggregate profits" meant general profits of companies in the whole of the United Kingdom; and that the action taken would be some Budget measure which would apply to the whole of the United Kingdom. But its repetition in the context of this Statement to-day appears to suggest the possibility that "aggregate profits" here may be the aggregate profits of some particular firm or group of firms. In that case, surely the question, if it arises, should be referred to the National Board for Prices and Incomes, and we should know who it is who should judge whether or not the aggregate profit is excessive. If, as I have always supposed, it means general profits for the United Kingdom as a whole, then it is a repetition in this Statement to-day, 4½, years later, which would appear to be quite unnecessary. But I hope that in a minute or two the noble Lord will be able to make the position clear.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, from these Benches I also should like to thank the noble Lord and give a general welcome to this Statement on dividend restraint. I want to ask only one question, to clarify one part of it. The Statement says that after December 31
"it will remain possible for the Government to require notification of individual dividend increases"
under certain sections of the Prices and Incomes Act, if the need should arise. May I ask the noble Lord what action the Government could take: what sanctions they could apply, and who is to determine whether increases are excessive, once the 3½ per cent. figure has disappeared?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, may I first of all thank the noble Earl and the noble Lord for the observations that they have made and the general welcome they have given to this Statement. In answer to the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, about paragraph 3 of the Statement, I can only tell him that this is a reiteration of a policy which we held to be valid in 1966 and which is still applicable, or will still be applicable in 1970; namely, that if this additional flexibility which is given for the declaration or recommendation of dividends is abused—there is absolutely no reason to believe that it will be, but if it were and there were ex
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cessive distribution—then the Chancellor of the Exchequer would find it necessary to take other fiscal measures or to emphasise credit restrictions.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, may I ask whether "aggregate profits" refers to general profits for the whole of the United Kingdom, or means the profits of one particular firm?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I am re-emphasising what the position was in 1966. Of course, in 1966 one could not have a selective tax on a particular company which was held to be abusing the situation. Here, we are referring to the aggregate situation and to an aggregate counteraction which would be taken.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: For the whole country?
LORD BESWICK: For the whole country, yes. To answer the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Byers, the powers referred to here would be powers vested in the Treasury to require information which, if on examination it was thought appropriate, would be referred to the Prices and Incomes Board, who would then look at the situation of the company in question to find out on what basis they were making their apparently excessive dividend recommendation. If it was because they were charging undue prices for their products, then of course action could be taken.
LORD BYERS: Yes, my Lords, but if the 3½ per cent. figure is no longer valid, who determines what is excessive? And what is excessive?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I take the noble Lord's point, but here we are dealing with a social as well as an economic problem. We have a general climate of opinion, which has to be recognised. So far, the trading community have recognised that excessive dividends were not warranted in the economic situation; and it is hoped that they will co-operate in the future. There is no arithmetical formula which can be applied, but I should not have thought it would be impossible for Her Majesty's Government or the Treasury to decide if a particular dividend limitation breached the general standards observed by other companies.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, is that not contrary to all forms of natural justice

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— to leave Not Knowing where they stand?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, if the noble Lord wants to look upon this matter as a particular trouble I am prepared to discuss it with him afterwards, but I should not have thought it would be beyond the bounds of ordinary common sense to come to a conclusion as to whether a particular company was going contrary to a policy which hitherto it has willingly, voluntarily accepted.
THE EARL OF DUNDEE: My Lords, is it not the case that the only legal requirement is notification under the Act, and the Government have no power to do anything else? Of course, they could refer any case on any grounds to the National Board for Prices and Incomes, not on the ground of the figure being more than 3½ per cent.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I accept that gladly. It will not be possible to attempt to regulate the amount of dividends; that is quite true. But, again, if the declaration of a dividend is clearly contrary to the economic requirements of the country, then one would have thought that, for example, public opinion could be invoked in this matter; and if excessive prices are being charged then other action can be taken.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, am I then right in understanding that the Government remove the 3½ per cent. limitation and substitute for it excessive, and then do not define "excessive"?
LORD BESWICK: No, my Lords. What the Government are saying (and possibly the noble Lord will read this Statement again) is that they are taking away the rigid 3½ per cent. limit. They are asking for further co-operation. They are recognising that in particular cases flexibility is required. If any individual company appears to be abusing this flexibility by using its market power or near monopoly position, then the Government would have to consider that particular case.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, can the noble Lord tell me—because this is a very complicated Statement, of which I myself have not a copy—what the answer is to this question? If I were still back at my old job of produc-
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ing newspapers, would I be justified tonight in putting up the heading: "Dividend Squeeze Eased"?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, with the freedom which some newspapers exercise to-day they would be free to put up any headline they liked. What my noble friend could say in a newspaper is that the co-operation of the business community and the trading community is still expected.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, that would not fit into a heading type.
VISCOUNT ECCLES: My Lords, while I welcome the announcement we have heard, may I ask whether, when the Government are watching what happens in the future, they will remember that it is now very difficult to borrow money, and it is extremely expensive for small businesses? Quite a number of these businesses ought to put their dividends up quite a bit in order to have an issue of ordinary shares. Perhaps the noble Lord could tell some of his friends on the trade union side—because they may not all quite understand what is happening now —that this is very much in their own interests.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, this is of course the kind of consideration which has led Her Majesty's Government to make this change.

MATRIMONIAL PROCEEDINGS AND PROPERTY BILL [H.L.]
4.10 p.m.
LORD WADE: My Lords, reverting to the Matrimonial Proceedings and Property Bill I should like to join with the noble Viscount in thanking the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack for outlining the contents of this Bill with his customary clarity. In offering some comments on this Bill I shall certainly not attempt to cover the whole of the ground. The Bill contains a number of useful reforms, and should be supported. I think perhaps the only danger is that in some quarters rather too much may be expected of it.
As to the merits of the Bill, the changes in terminology, for example, seem to me to be sensible, and they follow the report of the Law Commission. To the lay

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mind the distinction between "alimony" and "maintenance" has always been somewhat confusing. I am not sure when the word "alimony" was first used in the courts: to the best of my knowledge the earliest use was at the beginning of the 17th century. But the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor will know the origin of the word much better than I do. Be that as it may, I think it is a word which can now be dispensed with.
The Law Commission's Report on Family Law points out on page 3 that there are only three meaningful distinctions that need to be preserved: the first is the distinction between payments made pending the outcome of the suit, and payments made on or after the conclusion of the suit. The second is the distinction between periodical payments and the lump sum; and the third is the distinction between maintenance which is secured and that which is not secured. That seems to be a reasonable statement, and so, following the Report, we now have the new phraseology; namely, "financial provisions" and "maintenance pending suit".
I believe that Clause 5 of this Bill will be helpful to those practising in the courts, as well as to the parties involved in proceedings. As your Lordships know, it lists the matters to which the court is to have regard in deciding what orders are to be made. I think this is an advance in our law reform but, if I may take some of the words of Clause 5 a little out of context, I suggest that all too often it is not practicable for the party who is to be provided for to be placed in the same financial position as that party would have been, or ought to have been, had the marriage not broken down. Unfortunately, that is how things work out and no legislation can completely alter the facts of life in that respect. Clause 5, however, removes several difficulties, one of which concerns wilful neglect to maintain the other party, or children. I understand from those who practise in this type of case in the courts that the power to order payment pending suit will certainly be an improvement in the law.
I agree with the provisions of Clause 7 about the duration of orders, and of Clause 8 concerning certain orders in favour of children.
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If I do not mention every clause in the Bill I hope it will not be assumed that I have not read the Bill. I do not pretend to understand every word of it. Clause 28, which is certainly an important clause, goes some way towards taking account of the contributions of the spouse (and this is generally applicable to the wife), in money or money's worth, to the improvement of the home, and I note that it refers both to personal and to real property. I think this is a step in the right direction, although I believe that it does not go as far as some would wish. Another step towards equality between the sexes is the abolition of the wife's agency of necessity, which is now a quite out-of-date concept.
My Lords, there are many other points, a number of which have been mentioned by the noble Viscount, but looking at the Bill as a whole and considering the changes which are being made, I have posed myself certain questions. The first is the age-old problem of the husband who is liable to maintain his wife, whether it be before or after a separation, or before a divorce, and who is clearly determined not to pay. Nothing much is done in this Bill about that situation—indeed, it is doubtful whether any Bill could provide an entirely satisfactory answer. It is not within the scope of this debate to deal with the proposal for employers to deduct payments out of wages, but even when that is introduced one will still have the case of the employee who moves from one job to another, or who disappears altogether. In those cases no doubt only a minority, where one spouse evades his or her responsibilities—and it is generally "his"—it is very difficult indeed to know what to do.
Then there is the case of the man with little or no capital who cannot afford two homes. The principles laid down in Clause 5 of this Bill are admirable, but in those cases I think that in practice the difference will be minimal. It is said that he who calls himself a realist is generally either a pessimist or a cynic. I do not want to appear to be either, and I am trying to look at this as objectively as possible; but I recognise that there are limitations in any legislation.
If I may refer back to Clause 4 of the Bill, that clause, very properly, refers

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to ante-nuptial and post-nuptial settlements, but there are a great many married couples who do not know what they are. This is a kind of rarified atmosphere into which they never enter. There are some with very little capital, there are many who live in rented houses; there are some who are buying their own houses, often jointly, but at the time of the break-up of the marriage there is not a great deal of value in the equity: there is still a mortgage on the house. It is in the light of these circumstances that we have to consider how this Bill—and Clause 5 in particular—will be interpreted.
The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has pointed out that the Divorce Reform Act has its own financial provision, and the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, made the point that the purpose of this Bill is to bring the provisions generally into line with the Divorce Reform Act rather than to supplement Section 6 of that Act. I hope that is a fair summary of what he said.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, not to bring them in line, but to bring them nearer.
LORD WADE: My Lords, I accept that amendment, but perhaps it is not entirely out of place to make a brief reference to the Divorce Reform Act. I was one who supported it; I think there is a great deal to be said on both sides on some of the amendments, and I appreciated very much the point of view of those who opposed it, particularly those who thought that there would still be hardship. But in applying the provisions of this Bill, and particularly the provisions of the Divorce Reform Act, it seems to me that the kind of circumstances that will be under consideration will often be similar.
Perhaps I may illustrate this by dealing with the one point of security. As I understand it—and I am sure that if I am wrong I shall be corrected by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, or the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor—if a petitioner comes to the court before a decree is granted, with certain proposals for making provision for his wife, the court may say: "This is not really quite adequate. You must go away and think of something better, having regard to your means and such
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capital as you have". But if he has no capital, if he has nothing which he can secure, if he does not own the house free of mortgage and has not anything much in the way of investments, I presume the court will not say, Go away and save up until you have enough capital to provide security for the maintenance for your wife". Therefore there is a limit to the reliance that one can place on this worthy proposal about security.
This being so, I think that in many cases the parties to proceedings of this kind will have regard to what is going to happen at the time of retirement, and therefore very rightly the subject of pensions was raised in the debates on the Divorce Reform Bill. There are many private superannuation schemes—and I do not yet know to what extent they will be affected by the latest Government proposals because I have not had an opportunity of considering them fully—where the head of the household will retire on a reasonably satisfactory pension, and that will mean quite a lot to the wife.
But when the marriage breaks, whoever's fault it may be, assuming the husband is the breadwinner these benefits will be lost to the wife. It may be that even on parting before an actual divorce, if the man leaves his wife and lives with another woman and starts another family, those benefits under the private scheme will already be lost. Be that as it may. that benefit is lost and the question we have to consider is how to make up that loss. One way would be by taking out by the husband, if he is to make the provision, a deferred annuity. There is still the problem of paying the premiums. However, that is one way of making up the loss suffered by not benefiting, either as wife or later as widow, from a private superannuation scheme of which the husband was a member.
The last question I pose myself and I am unable to answer is very closely related to that; namely, what will be the effect so far as State pensions are concerned? It is a very complex subject, but I think there are many people who want to know to what extent it is going to be possible, so far as State pensions are concerned, to put the wife who is divorced, maybe divorced against her will, in roughly the same position as if

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the marriage had not broken down. I hope it is not going too wide, but I think it would be helpful if a little more could be said on that subject; and certainly there are those who feel strongly in that respect in the case where—and this comes under the Divorce Reform Act—the divorce takes place against the wishes of one of the parties.
It is clear that though there are many merits in this Bill, and I do not want to belittle them, it is not a financial charter for deserted wives and it does not necessarily provide—I think this follows what the noble Viscount said—significant safeguards for spouses divorced against their will. Nevertheless, it does remove a number of anomalies. I think it is a step towards a fairer method of dealing with the whole subject of property, and I certainly think the Bill should be supported.
4.25 p.m.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, it appears to me, looking at the list of speakers, that I am the only Member speaking here to-day who has not a legal qualification, but I can assure the House that what I lack in legal expertise I can make up for in my understanding of the problem we are discussing to-day. I welcome the last two speeches very much, particularly Lord Wades, because it is quite clear that both noble Lords do not welcome the Bill wholeheartedly but are very critical regarding certain important aspects.
May I just recall to the House the fact that over the last few years divorce reform has been discussed in another place and in this House, Bills have been introduced, Bills have been rejected, and there has been a great deal of time to think about those aspects of divorce reform which would bear hardly on either party, the man or the woman. Nobody can say at this stage that we have not had time to think about what the repercussions would be. And throughout these debates Members in both Houses, women's organisations and all the organisations which my noble and learned friend has just mentioned, have maintained that if provisions are made which permit of the divorce against her will of a wife innocent of any matrimonial offence, then a Bill to provide for her financial security should accompany the
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legislation. I think that is accepted. It was accepted in the other place and in this House, and I am absolutely convinced that the women's organisations which my noble and learned friend mentioned believe that the operation of the Divorce Reform Act is being delayed until January, 1971, in order to protect this particular woman.
Well, my Lords, I am not the only one who is criticising this Bill. The noble Viscount, Lord Colville, repeated two or three times to the House just now that nobody will think that the woman who is going to be divorced against her will under the five-year clause is going to benefit from this Bill. Then what is the purpose of delaying the Divorce Reform Act? So far as I am concerned, if this rather miserable little Bill is going to be accepted, the Divorce Reform Act can come into operation right away. I thought that the whole view of the House when we debated the Divorce Reform Bill on Committee stage in July, when we got that eleventh-hour Amendment, was that the Act should be postponed pending the introduction of a Bill to protect that particular woman. Because that, after all, is the great change in this so-called divorce reform: the fact that, for the first time in our history an innocent woman is to be divorced against her will. This Bill is not going to protect her; there is nothing in it to protect her. Therefore, let the Divorce Reform Act be introduced.
I would remind your Lordships that it was on July 24, during the Committee stage on the Divorce Bill, that what I am saying now was reaffirmed by Members on bo th sides of the House. Unfortunately, we are completely in the dark regarding the details of the Law Commission's Report. Therefore, after the House adjourned I was astonished to receive the Law Commission's Report containing a draft of a Bill similar to the one before us to-day, which was ordered to be printed on July 24. What a curious coincidence! As we were debating here on July 24—I think it was The Times which said we were passing the Bill in the dark—we did not have this Report, a very important Report, before us; and yet in a few days' time we were told that it was on that day,

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when presumably it was in draft, that it was ordered to be printed.
Perhaps if the contents of that Report had been revealed to us in July when it was in draft, I would have given my whole-hearted support to the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, who I am sorry is not here to-day, and who was persuaded to withdraw it. The noble Lord must have possessed second sight. He seemed to know. I thought then that perhaps the proposed Bill was not satisfactory, because the noble Lord suggested to the House that the date for the commencement of the Divorce Reform Act should be subject to an Affirmative Resolution of both Houses: in other words, if this Bill was not satisfactory the Divorce Reform Act could not automatically come into force in January, 1971. But that Bill has now been passed, and whatever kind of Bill is introduced the Divorce Reform Act becomes operative in January, 1971. I regret profoundly that the House did not support Lord Sandford's Amendment which, if this Bill was not satisfactory, would have prevented the Divorce Reform Bill being enacted.
My Lords, I want to say something which is quite strong. In view of what I have said, I really feel that a confidence trick has been played on the women of the country. These are strong words. I feel that the women have been betrayed. I believe they felt that there was this year in which they could be protected, and of course it is now too late. Whatever is said now about something else that might be introduced, it is too late. We shall probably have a General Election next October and there will be no time to introduce a Bill to give women real protection. This miserable little thing is all there is, and I have come to the conclusion that the Divorce Reform Bill was introduced for one reason only, to give the courts the completely new power compulsorily to divorce an innocent wife against her will, and that all these promises of Bills to protect her were absolute nonsense. I am sorry to say that all the high sounding utterances of my noble friend Lord Stow Hill, behind me, concerning irretrievable breakdown, and undertaking to introduce a compensatory Bill, can now be seen to
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be nothing but a torrent of verbiage calculated to deceive the women.
I had great support on this matter. Surely everybody in this House recognises the noble and learned Lord, Lord Reid, as a Law Lord of the highest eminence. What did he say? On the Third Reading of the Divorce Bill he summed the matter up in a few well chosen words. He criticised "the excessive claims" of the noble Lord, Lord Stow Hill, and he said that 95 per cent. of divorce cases will go on in exactly the same way and have exactly the same result as if the Bill had never been passed.
With regard to the safeguards which are supposed to be embodied in this Bill, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Reid, said that the Law Commission's Report is of very little use in this connection. He advised—and with this I heartily concur—that the man who discards an innocent wife should regard her as a first charge on his income, and his new wife and family as only a second charge. Noble Lords here and there on the Committee stage interrupted and said that a man cannot afford two wives. I have said that for a long time. But what he can afford, of course, is to make the first wife the first charge. But that is not done in this Bill. There is no indication that the Government, or the Law Commission, are prepared to follow that course, which is the only equitable one. Indeed, as I have mentioned before—and it has been mentioned by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, who has clearly expressed some concern over this—the court is given an instruction on how to proceed on page 31, paragraph 3. That paragraph says:
"It would be clearly unjust to insist on a settlement which would leave nothing for the new dependants."
I commented last time on "the new dependants". How many more new dependants can a man have? The court has to sum this up.
The noble Viscount, Lord Colville, quite rightly said that this must be worded in such a way that at least it must be limited in regard to the number of dependants that the man already has by the second woman whom he either proposes to marry or not marry. Surely, as this Bill is worded now, we cannot allow the courts to disregard the needs of the first

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wife and her children because the court thinks that the man before it might have another three or four children and that these must be provided for. But that is how the Bill reads. It seems that if judges have to bear in mind the unborn children of a man, then the first wife and her children stand little chance of receiving even elementary justice.
The position with regard to widows' pensions is not at all clear. I understand from reading the Report that the Law Commission have not reached any definite decision, and it seems to me that the widow's pension. which is something which is absolutely concrete, and which, after all, a woman by her work in the home for years deserves, is still left in such a way that the second wife might get the widow's pension, albeit that the husband may have been married to her for only two or three years. It seems to me that all the thousands of words in the Report have little meaning for the ordinary housewife, the innocent discarded wife.
I feel that in view of the fact that three or four lawyers are to speak to-day, I should quote what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Reid, said on another occasion of the innocent discarded wife, namely:
"If she is to suffer the stigma of divorce, she is to suffer financial hardship, in many cases without any protection, all to bolster up this theory that breakdown ought to be a ground for divorce."
Knowing that there would be a number of lawyers here, I consulted another eminent lawyer, who summed up the Law Commission's Report for me in this way. He said:
"Do not think me cynical, but all this Bill does is to tidy up the position for the wealthy man and his legal advisers, and that is the beginning and the end of it."
In these recommendations there are to be no rules at all. Neither party is to have vested interests of any kind. Any provision is left to the discretion of the court; and to-day, of course, it is the rule that financial provisions are made after the divorce has been granted, in secret hearing and usually by registrars. No reports are published and there is no way of learning how the provisions of courts differ. I should like to know whether the same secrecy will be observed after 1971, when an innocent and
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unwilling spouse could be divorced compulsorily.
Furthermore, is it proposed to exercise more vigilance over the county courts in regard to divorce, they having had little previous experience of the jurisdiction? May I give the House an example of what can happen. I should like to remind your Lordships of the case of Porter v. Porter which was decided in 1969—not 1869, but 1969—in which a county court judge had ordered a husband earning £3,000 a year to pay Is. a year to his wife for 20 years, there. being a son of 19 and twins aged 13. This was because, when her marriage was already on the rocks after she alleged a long course of cruel ill-treatment by her husband, she had once committed adultery. In overuling this decision. the Court of Appeal said that some of the views expressed in the county court were decades, if not generations. out of date. The Court of Appeal said that two of the standard textbooks dealing with these matters mention in their notes authorities which have long been disused, and therefore should be revised. I am talking about the administration of divorce for these women in 1969.
The Law Commission decided to remedy such ills, and their remedy is set out in paragraph 82 of their Report. That paragraph lists the considerations to which the court should have regard when making financial provisions. There is no indication of the weight that should be attached to those considerations, however, and it is quite clear that any court so minded would he free to make the kind of provisions, or perhaps ten times the provisions—say 10s. a year—that were made in Porter v. Porter, after declaring that it had borne in mind all these considerations set out in paragraph 82.
My Lords, I hope I have been able to inject some doubt into your minds as to the value of this Bill, and I hope your Lordships have realised that the unfortunate wife, whether she be the five-year one or any other one, whose lot is to be decided in this Bill, is to be pitied. In a situation in which a well-behaved wife can be divorced against her will, it is to me grossly inequitable that this puny Bill should be offered as a safeguard for herself and her family.
BARONESS BIRK: My Lords, I wonder whether, before my noble friend sits

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down, she would clarify something for me. She has spoken very strongly against the Bill. Could she give us some rather more constructive indication of what sort of legislation she feels we should be passing which would protect what she will keep calling "the innocent wife" when there is no money and there is no property? I wonder, further, whether she would not agree that she is really arguing against the Divorce Reform Act and not speaking to this Bill at all.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, perhaps my noble friend was not here when I was speaking, or she did not hear clearly, or perhaps she was doing something else. I specifically dealt with that point. When people interrupted me I think I used the words, "Where is the money to come from?". I am fully aware of the fact that in the lower income groups things are difficult, because I have said "men cannot afford two wives". But what I have said is that the first woman should be the first charge.
BARONESS BIRK: My Lords, is my noble friend aware—
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Perhaps my noble friend will let me speak. She asked me a question. I am saying that the first woman should be the first charge, and it is not clear in the Report, or in the Bill, that these are the directions to the court. I say that it is not clear, but in fact there is no direction of that kind. On the contrary (and if my noble friend had been listening closely she would have heard), I said twice in this House that it is stated that the court must bear in mind the dependants which the man may have in the future. All I am asking is that the first woman must be the first charge.
4.45 p.m.
LORD DENNING: My Lords, it is the task of the Court of Appeal, day by day, to deal with financial questions between husband and wife, and I should like to say at once on behalf of the Court how warmly we welcome the provisions of this Bill. I should like to pay a tribute —and follow the Lord Chancellor in this —to the work of the Law Commission in preparing the draft Bill and this Report before us. It is not really intimately connected with the Divorce Reform Act and I, for one, wish that the date for the coming into operation of this Bill had
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not been put as January 1, 1971. I should like to see it brought into operation as soon as possible, because it contains many provisions which are of day-to-day application and of use to us in the day-to-day work that we have to do.
In this Parliament there have been great reforms in our family law. The Divorce Reform Act, as it is now, is a great advance, I suggest, and we have three stages in regard to property and. property disputes between husband and wife. The first stage, which I will mention in a moment, is the Matrimonial Homes Act; the second stage is this present Bill; and the third stage we shall hear about is the Community of Goods Bill, which is to come later. But let me first mention what has been done in this Parliament with the matrimonial home.
When I first sat in the courts, if the husband was in law the owner of the house, and it was in his name, after he deserted his wife he could turn her out and go back to live there with his new mistress. The courts altered that situation. We said that a husband who deserted his wife could not turn her out. We went further: we said that if he sold the house to his new mistress, or if he sold it to a bank, or charged it to a bank, they could not get her out if they knew the position. This House reversed our decisions about the other two cases, but that has now been set right by your Lordships' House in the Matrimonial Homes Act, which the noble Baroness sponsored and put through so well. And to-day the deserted wife is protected not only against her husband but also against the purchaser, the bank chargee, and so on, so long as she has registered her charge. That is the first stage, the Act which your Lordships have passed.
Now we come to this second stage, and may I at the moment tell your Lordships what in the view of our Court would be the important provisions of this Bill? We have gradually been working towards a concept of what I might call "family assets". Again when I first sat as a judge the house, if it was in the husband's name, was his; and, as I have said, he could turn the wife out. But 16 years ago we had cases in which the wife went out to work, and where the building society instalments were paid out of her earnings. We held then that although the house was in the husband's name she

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was entitled to her share; and if the position was not clear, the shares should be equal. And the same in the next case, where the wife went out to work and pooled her earnings to pay for the housekeeping, but the husband paid the building society instalments. Here again, it is all the same. It did not matter which one paid if the payments were made out of their joint resources. Again, although the house is in the husband's name it belongs to both; and if there is no clear division, it belongs to each equally. That was the next stage.
Then we had the case (and this is the question which will be cleared up by this Bill) where a husband or wife made great improvements to the house himself or herself. We had cases where a man who had little means himself had done great work of renovation to his wife's house in which they were living. She left him, or told him to go, and said that the house was to be sold. He said, "Couldn't any share come to me for all the work I have done?" In another case, the husband had left off his outside work and had converted the house into flats, spending months on it. Could he not be allowed something for his work when the marriage broke up? The Court of Appeal held that that could be done.
Quite recently, in a decision in your Lordships' House, that question of improvements has been the subject of consideration and difference of opinion. In a previous case on that very point, two of their Lordships said it was right and two said it was wrong. This Bill will clear that matter up—and we have these cases day by day, my Lords. We want to know how to deal with such cases as those; and we want to be able to deal with them now, not 18 months hence. So, under Clause 28, when the husband and wife—and I put it in this way—have, out of their joint resources, whether in money or in money's worth, improved the matrimonial home or the furniture, then, whoever's name the property is in, the courts can make a fair division. That is a new principle, in effect, of family assets endorsed by this Bill, which I hope will be passed.
That is when the marriage is subsisting; but there is another, equally important, provision which has not been
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used much in the courts, and that is when the marriage has broken down, when there is a divorce and the question is what is to be done about the property. Again, in the old days it has always been, "In whoever's name it is, whoever's property it is, so be it; it remains his property—let the wife get her maintenance and the like if she can". But, now, under Clause 2 as to financial provision and Clause 4 as to property, after a divorce the court can order one party to transfer the property actually to the other or to the children. So the guilty party, if he is a wealthy man, for instance, can be ordered by the court to transfer a house, say, to the wife, and to make provision for her in that way.
This wide power in Clause 4 is amplified by Clause 5, which says that in considering those matters you can consider the history of the marriage and can also consider the fact (which we could not before) that the wife has been working in the home—perhaps not working and earning outside, but working in the home, bringing up the family—and that it is a joint concern. After the divorce, all that can be reconsidered and the court can order any transfer of property by the husband to the wife, or can order any secure position for the wife. Then there is a final clause which goes on to make provision for putting the wife, if need be, in just as good a position, so far as it can be done, as she would have been if there had been no divorce.
The noble Baroness says that this Bill does nothing to protect the innocent wife after five years' separation. She says that the Government have not honoured their promise. My Lords, as I read this Bill it gives the courts wide power, very wide power, to do whatever is just and fair by way of property dealings between the parties after a divorce, and, indeed, to take care so far as may be of any pension arrangements which could be affected. Those are the two new principles, as I see it, in this Bill, which are a great advance in our family law.
I welcome the abolition of the law concerning restitution of conjugal rights, which is quite out of date, and the wife's agency of necessity, which is also quite out of date; and I welcome the new provision at the end. Quite generally, in our Statute Law, we have a new provision here whereby the courts will not

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go just by the Act itself but can look at the Report of the Commission. They can look at the Commission's explanations and see what was really meant. That is quite a help to us, because although amendments may be made by the House, nevertheless, broadly speaking, it is a great help to the courts to be able to see what those responsible for the legislation or for putting views before your Lordships had to say in explanation. I may say that indirectly, sub rosa, one may look at them now, but after this Bill we can do it quite openly as a result of this new clause, Clause 35, to see what was behind your Lordships' minds when you were passing any particular legislation. As I say, I thank the Law Commission for the good work they have done; I warmly welcome this Bill, and I support its Second Reading.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord sits down may I put this question to him? I do so in all friendliness, because I admire him as one of the most progressive law reformers of the day. As I understand the law at present, a wife can be protected in the home by a land charge made on what is called an F form, and that protects her so long as she is a deserted wife. The moment she becomes a divorced wife, or has divorced her husband, that protection under the F form land charge ceases. Am I correct in that assumption? Then I move on to ask: under the Bill that we have before us to-day, will she be protected after she has moved from the status of a deserted wife into the status of a wife who has gone through the divorce courts?
LORD DENNING: My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord I would say that I believe that, under the Matrimonial Homes Act (I think my recollection is right), to be protected she has to have a charge, and I think that may well come to an end on a divorce. But as I read this new Bill—and that is why it is important that it should go through, and I believe quickly—under Clause 4(a) the court may make
"an order that a party to the marriage shall transfer to the other party —such property as may be so specified —"
I should imagine that in such a case as that a court could make an order. Whereas previously the wife had to have
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a charge, now, if it is thought right, she can have the whole property. I hope that that power will be in the new Act.
4.58 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, there is one point I should like to put to the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack on which he may be able to say something to me this afternoon; or he may think it worth further consideration with his advisers. It relates to the very interesting provision to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, drew attention at the end of his speech; namely, the novel provision in subsection (2) of Clause 35 of the Bill which makes this possible:
"In ascertaining the meaning of any provision in this Act regard may be had to the report of the Law Commission."
I can quite see that that may be for many purposes a very useful provision. I think that for some time the learned Judge who presides over the Commission has recommended some such provision, and it is, I think, for the reasons given by the noble and learned Lord, very attractive. There is, however, one curious consequence which seems to me to arise, and that is what happens when what the Commission has recommended is altered by amendments made in Parliament. It will have the very curious effect, so far as I can see, that you will be able to look at and tell the court what the Commission recommended, but you will not be able to tell the court why Parliament altered it. Parliament's reasons for amending the Bill will remain as irrelevant from the point of view of anything decided in court as it is at the present moment, and that seems to me to put the court in a very curious position.
I have no doubt that the great ingenuity of the Master of the Rolls will be equal to dealing even with that problem, but it seems to me that this is a matter that the noble and learned Lord who sits on the Woolsack might wish to consider a little further with his advisers—not with a view to deleting this useful new provision but possibly in order to enable the courts in future, if they are to look at what the Commission recommends, also to look at Parliament's reasons for not agreeing with the Commission.
5.2 p.m.
LORD ROYLE: My Lords, before my noble and learned friend who sits on the

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Woolsack replies, I wonder whether he could answer a question on a matter which has given me some concern. It might not have to do with the Bill at all but it is to meet a lack of understanding. It is a very small point in proportion to the importance of the Bill, but I notice that in Clause 10 power is to be given to the High Court and to the county courts to wipe our arrears when a new marriage has taken place. Yet under Clause 32, while it is possible for magistrates' courts to order that an order shall cease, it does not make provision for arrears to be wiped out. From my reading of the Bill, it appears that we are giving powers to the High Court and the county courts which are not being given to the magistrates' courts in relation to the wiping out of arrears. In the case of the magistrates' courts this has been a source of great trouble for many years. Men who have orders against them and whose wives ultimately marry again can never understand why the arrears under a separate order should continue after her re-marriage. Am I right in my interpretation, that the magistrates' courts are not being given the same powers as the higher courts?
5.4 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am much indebted to all noble Lords who have taken such an interest in this Bill. If I may, I will deal with the point raised by my noble friend Lord Royle while it is in my mind. There are some differences with regard to magistrates' courts. These are under consideration at the moment. One of the difficulties is that a maintenance order is not the only kind of order in a magistrates' court for regular payments which may be in arrears. The point is being considered.
Now, if I may, I will take the points helpfully raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross. So far as the Long Title is concerned, I am at the moment discussing the whole question of Long Titles with the First Parliamentary Counsel—and this is a very long Long Title. It is a question on which there are two views.
A suggestion was made by the Conservative Lawyers' Association—the Working Paper was sent to the Association of Conservative Lawyers, the Asso-
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ciation of Liberal Lawyers and the Society of Labour Lawyers, for the Law Commission welcome comment from whatever source, political or otherwise. On the matter of appeals, rules will have to be made. It is important that the appeals should be on a wide scale, particularly with so many judges administering the Act.
The point raised by the noble Viscount on Clause 5(1)(b) looks to me to be a valid one, and I will consider it before the Committee stage. Clause 32(2) applies the re-marriage rule to which I referred to magistrates' courts orders made here in respect of husbands living in Commonwealth territories. They can become effective only if confirmed by the Commonwealth court in question but can be varied or discharged by the home court. As Lo the question of a lump sum, the provision to which the noble Viscount referred was certainly not intended to be restrictive. If I may, I will consider that point also. He referred to words which had been omitted. They were omitted because it was believed that they did not add anything to the words which were left. The Law Commission made observations with regard to tax; but naturally this is a matter for my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer which he will have to consider in relation to his Budget. He has in fact been made aware of the observations of the Law Commission. So far as Clause 30 is concerned, whatever administrative action is necessary will be taken. If there is any other matter of detail that I have overlooked, perhaps I may write to the noble Viscount. I am grateful for his support.
On Clause 35(2), it is of course correct to say that the value of the Report to judges will diminish according to the number of Amendments which have been made. The judge will be able to see what Amendments have been made, although as the noble Lord, Lord Conesford pointed out, not why. I think that Lord Conesford will be interested to read another Report from the Law Commission which has been published on the Interpretation of Statutes. The recommendation that they make is that the judges should be able to look at other things besides Reports, including international treaties and, of course, anything

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in the Act itself including punctuations, cross-heads, marginal notes and the Long Title, as well as certain other documents. I think that that Report which is available would interest the noble Lord.
I listened with interest to the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Wade, who raised in particular the question of pensions. This is a difficult question. The Law Commission, in paragraphs 182 to 203 of their Report, dealt with the difficulties which arise on pensions. It is not possible simply to transfer the State pension. But the Divorce Reform Act will make two differences. The first is that if there is a position of hardship, the decree may be refused. Secondly, the judge may say in the case of the State pension—or of any other kind of pension —" You can have a decree provided that you take out a policy, which I am satisfied that you can afford to do, to give your wife after your death the same amount that she would have received by way of pension if there had been no divorce."
It is difficult to go further than that, but so much has been said about pensions that I think one should say this. First, one must bear in mind that half the number of women whose marriages are dissolved are 34 years of age or younger; so that when one is talking about the old-age ension one is looking about 35 years ahead. In any event, it does not follow that the husband is going to die first. About half the number of women whose marriages are dissolved re-marry; so one is not talking about an ordinary case but about a fairly small minority. The difficulty about community property, as the Law Commission point out, is this. If you say, "At all events, all property acquired after marriage is to belong to both equally", the first question that arises is: What is to happen if they do not agree? Perhaps the husband has had a good year in his business; he wants to plough the profits back into the business while his wife wants the house decorated and a second car. What do you do in such a case?
There are some States in the United States which have a system of community of property. Under that law, if there is a division of opinion the husband decides. But that seems to me to put one back to square one. In the system as it is applied
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in France (and I think also in South Africa) if there is a dispute the spouses go to the court. But it is not a very good foundation for a happy marriage, for the partners always to be rushing off to court. In fact, those systems allow contracting out. As I understand it today, it is a matter of form that everybody in France entering into marriage signs a contracting-out form; because it has been found that people do not want to rush off to court. It only makes matters more difficult. It is a difficult subject.
My noble friend Lady Summerskill said that this was a confidence trick. With great respect, I really cannot have that. Nobody, I think, could have taken more trouble repeatedly to make it plain, particularly to my noble friend, that whatever remedy that could be provided for those subject to the five-year clause under the Divorce Reform Act was contained in the Act itself. On the Second Reading of that Bill in June, at column 327, I said:
"Your Lordships will want to know the position about the Law Commission. They have kept their word. Next month they will be publishing their Report on financial relief. I asked the Chairman whether he would be good enough to summarise it for me in a form which I could read to your Lordships. and with your Lordships' permission I shall now do that. He says:
'You asked whether we could briefly summarise what matters of relevance to the debate on the Divorce Reform Bill will be dealt with in the Law Commission's forthcoming report on Financial Provision. May I say first that in our view none of these is in fact of much direct relevance since Clause 6 of the Divorce Reform Bill will enable the court to protect those who, despite the fact that they have not committed any matrimonial offence and do not want a divorce, may be divorced after five years' separation. It is to these "innocent respondents" that Clause 6 gives the maximum protection possible. All we can do in our promised Report is to extend the powers of the court to make financial orders. thereby affording greater protection than at present to other deserving parties. whether petitioners or respondents. Accordingly those who will principally benefit are those who might be divorced under the present law rather than those who, for the first time. may be divorced as a result of the Bill and whose protection will still depend largely on the draconian powers conferred by Clause 6…
'Our recommendation will attempt to rationalise the present position by'"—
and then he set out in detail the eight principal matters which he thought would be covered by the Report.

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I then said:
"… that this document is perhaps a little difficult to follow and I have therefore already arranged for copies of it to be available in my office, if any noble Lord would like to have one."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 30/6/69; cols. 327-9.]
Subsequently, on the Committee stage, my noble friend Lady Summerskill again said something to suggest that she or somebody was waiting in some way for some magical provision in this Bill to affect the provisions of the other Bill, and therefore I said—this is on July 15, at column 235:
"In view of what my noble friend Lady Summerskill has said, I think I ought to say a few words with regard to finance. I have done my best to make it plain to my noble friend, and so has the Chairman of the Law Commission, that it is no good relying on a financial provisions Bill to do much that is not already in this, the Divorce Reform, Bill. The arrangements affecting financial provision which the courts can make at the dissolution of a marriage can be improved. It is for the purpose of improving them that the Law Commission is engaged in producing the financial provisions Bill. That would be necessary in their view whether the Divorce Reform Bill is passed or is not passed.
"As the Chairman said in the letter which the noble Baroness read out, he wanted to make it plain that those improvements would in the main apply to people, whose marriages were now being dissolved. This Bill itself contains draconian powers "—
by "this Bill" I meant the Divorce Reform Bill—
"which no petitioner has ever had before."
And then I explained why and referred to Clause 4, and I added:
"I wish that my noble friend would appreciate—I am sure that she must, if she thinks about it—that it is no good looking to me or to the Law Commission, or to the lawyers or to anybody, if in the 118,000 maintenance order cases to which I referred on Second Reading 87 per cent. of the orders are made against men earning less than £15 a week and 43 per cent. are made against men who are earning less than £10 per week. It is no good saying, 'I am waiting for the Lord Chancellor, or I am waiting for the Law Commission '. It is absolutely useless to think that any change that law can make can mean that the deserted wife is in a position in which one would like to see her."
Then I pointed out that her position is in any case not due to divorce at all; it is due to the fact that the marriage has irretrievably broken down. Out of the 118,000 cases, 14,000 had a divorce and the others had not.
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I ended by saying:
"I therefore say again, as I have said before, and as the Chairman of the Law Commission has said before, I do not think that there is going to be anything in a Bill on financial provisions which means that a woman who is the wife of a low wage earner and whose husband has unfortunately deserted her and who has been in that position for five years is going to be put. by anything the law can do, in the same financial position that she would have been if they were still living together."
Therefore I think that the suggestion of my noble friend that she was in some way misled, or that this is a confidence trick, is wholly unjustified.
I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, for his support on Clause 35(2). This recommendation has not been received well in all quarters, and so I am very grateful for his support. It is suggested that this will make some appalling difficulties for legislators in a sense that I am not personally satisfied about. I think it is hard for the judges to be criticised for construing an Act otherwise than in accordance with the intention of Parliament while Parliament obstinately refuses to allow the judges to look at documents which would assist them.
My Lords, I should say that the Law Commission are still considering the question of community of property, but it is a very difficult question. It is a much bigger question because, of course, it would apply to all married people in the country, the happily married as well as the unhappily married, and it would inevitably mean alterations to the law on intestate succession, and so on. They are still considering those problems. My Lords, if there is any other matter I have overlooked I will, if I may, write to the noble Lords concerned.
LORD SILKIN: My Lords, would the noble and learned Lord say a word about the date of the commencement of the Bill, to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, referred?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I have no strong views about that and I should like to consider it, if I may. It may be that the noble Lord would like to put down an Amendment. There is not a great deal in it because, of course, rules would have to be made. If the Bill reaches the other House before

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Christmas I suppose it would be unlikely to receive the Royal Assent until Easter, so that there is not a great deal in that point. But I have no objection to its coming in early.
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On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
House adjourned at seventeen minutes past five o'clock.