Sitting of 20 May 1969

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  CARDIFF CORPORATION BILL
  [Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified]
  Bill read the Third time, and passed.

  LANDS IMPROVEMENT COMPANY'S AMENDMENT BILL [Lords]
    TWEED FISHERIES BILL [Lords]
    Read the Third time and passed, with-out Amendment.

  BRITISH TRANSPORT DOCKS BILL [Lords]
  [Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown, signified]
  Bill read the Third time and passed, with Amendments.

  CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.

  LONDON TRANSPORT BILL
  [Queen's Consent, on behalf of the Crown and the Duchy of Lancaster, signified]
  Bill read the Third time and passed.

  CORN EXCHANGE BILL [Lords]
  As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
  BRISTOL CLIFTON AND WEST OF ENGLAND ZOOLOGICAL SOCIETY BILL [Lords]
    SAINT STEPHEN, CLAPHAM PARK BILL [Lords]
    Read a Second time and committed.
  GREATER LONDON COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL (By Order)
  Consideration, as amended, deferred till Tuesday, 10th June.
  GREATER LONDON COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL (By Order)
  Second Reading deferred till Tuesday, 10th June.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  NATIONAL FINANCE

    Invisible Earnings
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what further action he proposes to take on the report on invisible earnings, undertaken for the British National Export Council, a copy of which is in his possession.
    The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Roy Jenkins): In accordance with the recommendation of the British National Export Council, a permanent Committee was established under the chairmanship of Mr. Cyril Kleinwort
    "to suggest and where possible implement measures for the encouragement of invisible earnings".
    The first annual report of this Committee will shortly be published and the Government will give careful and sympathetic consideration to its proposals.
    Mr. Digby: Will the Chancellor also make some positive proposals of his own on this important subject of invisible earnings and, in particular, will he direct his attention to the excessive proportion of imports coming into this country in foreign ships?
    Mr. Jenkins: I will certainly consider any matter of this sort. We are, of course, very anxious to encourage invisible earnings. The Government's Development of Tourism Bill and other measures have been in this direction, and from the tourist point of view and other points of view we have done very well.
    Mr. Higgins: Would the Chancellor deny that selective employment tax is having an adverse effect on invisible earnings? Would he tell the House what

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    estimate he has made of that adverse effect?
    Mr. Jenkins: We shall debate this later today, but I would deny that it is having an adverse effect. It obviously falls on certain sectors which produce considerable invisible earnings, but these are sectors which are not price elastic, and they are precisely the sectors in which we have done very well.

    International Monetary Fund (Talks)
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a further statement on the progress of his discussions with the Government's overseas creditors regarding the rescheduling of its international debts.
    Sir C. Osborneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will publish the advice given to him by the International Monetary Fund representatives whilst in London during their recent inspection of the United Kingdom's finances.
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on the findings of the latest visit of the International Monetary Fund team to the Treasury in relation to the state of the economy.
    Mr. Sheldonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a further statement on the rephasing of Great Britain's external debts.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: I would refer to my statement in the House on 14th May, in reply to a Private Notice Question by the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod), and to the Answer given by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary in reply to another Question the previous day by the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten).—[Vol. 783, c. 1402–10; Vol. 783, c. 1207.]
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Now that the Chancellor has once again had to admit that his forecast of balance-of-payments surplus has been further postponed into next year, will he not agree that the present Government are about as much to be trusted with additional dollops of foreign charity as the junkie is to be trusted with free drugs? In the light of
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    that, will he ensure that the Letter of Intent contains the most strict and rigorous control on the Government, trigger clauses and all?
    Mr. Jenkins: I regard that as a bad supplementary question, even by the hon. Member's standards.
    Mr. Ridley: Next time the Chancellor wants to have a drink party to tell hon. Members on what the I.M.F. has insisted, will he be kind enough to ask me as well as his hon. Friends?
    Mr. Jenkins: I shall always be glad to have a discussion with the hon. Member, either with or without a drink, but I can assure him that no information was given last night which I have not given to the House.
    Mr. Sheldon: In seeking to rephase our foreign debts, particularly with the I.M.F., will my right hon. Friend avoid an excessive commitment to the newly-found theory of money supply which, although of course of some importance, must not be exaggerated in view of the lack of knowledge that we have about its effect as it applies to this country?
    Mr. Jenkins: As I said in my Budget speech, I attach the greatest importance to monetary policy. We need a tighter monetary policy than we had last year.
    Mr. Dickens: May I reinforce the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) and invite my right hon. Friend to resist the dangerous pre-Keynesian archaic nonsense of trying to limit the money supply in this country? Is my right hon. Friend aware that such a step could only exacerbate the country's basic economic problems and would not improve the situation?
    Mr. Jenkins: I assure my hon. Friend that my thought is post-Keynesian on this as on other matters.
    Sir G. Nabarro: Notwithstanding that yesterday evening's meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party was supposed to be private and a full report of it appeared on the front page of the Financial Times this morning, would the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is his policy, as reported, to attack as the first priority the supply of money in order to redress our balance of payments?
    Mr. Jenkins: I stand completely by my Budget Statement, an extract of which I have just quoted, that I attach the greatest importance to monetary policy.

    Selective Employment Tax (Snack Bars)
    Mr. W. H. K. Bakerasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in development areas where hoteliers receive repayment of selective employment tax, he will seek to extend the same facilities to owners of snack bars on recognised tourist routes.
    The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Dick Taverne): No, Sir.
    Mr. Baker: Does not this illustrate once again the absurd anomalies created by this tax? Will not the Government think again and abolish it right away?
    Mr. Taverne: The hon. Gentleman's Question referred to snack bars. The purpose of the hotel concession in these areas is to attract tourists to the areas for the benefit of those areas by enabling hotels either to lower prices or to improve facilities and services. Without disrespect to snack bar owners, people do not make up their mind about where to spend a holiday by looking at the snack bars which are available.
    Mr. Maclennan: Would not my hon. and learned Friend agree that this is an unworkable distinction and that it is the sum total of the facilities in the areas which are considered by tourists and not the existence of certain types of hotel?
    Mr. Taverne: Clearly, the services which hotels can offer are an important part in the decision which tourists make about where to go.

    Value Added Tax
    Mr. Wingfield Digbyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is his estimate of the administrative cost, in men and money, of introducing tax value added.
    The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Diamond): I have nothing to add to what my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary said in reply to a Question from my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Barnett) on 29th January.—[Vol. 776, c. 334–5.]
    Mr. Digby: Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that, although the cost is high, this tax has many advantages in the export field, although it has many disadvantages?
    Mr. Diamond: I agree that it has many advantages and many disadvantages. The advantages have not been exactly proven.

    Public Sector Expenditure
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the total increase in public sector expenditure during the current financial year after allowing for the increase in pensions in November and corresponding proportionate increases in all other social security payments.
    Mr. Diamond: I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave him on 8th May.—[Vol. 783, c. 119.]
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: How can the Chancellor of the Exchequer know what the effect of the financing of these increases in pensions and ancillary benefits will be on the demand management of the economy until he knows how he will finance them? Would not he agree that the announced increases in public service expenditure of 1 per cent. this year and 3 per cent. next year, even if achieved, are clearly excessive?
    Mr. Diamond: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said specifically what the increase in expenditure would be. He said that it would be £250 million, which referred to a full year. When one takes account of the proportion affecting the first year, that is the figure included in the public expenditure provision for which the 1 per cent. is the increase already announced.

    Credit Restraint
    Sir G. Nabarroasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what progress has now been made in the reduction of bank overdrafts as a result of the various measures he has taken since devaluation.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: Restricted lending by the banks as a whole is now virtually at the ceiling levels which they have been

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    asked to attain. As I said in my Budget statement, I attach the highest importance to the continued maintenance of credit restraint, and I expect those banks whose lending was still above the ceiling in April to bring it within the ceiling as soon as possible.
    Sir G. Nabarro: But surely the right hon. Gentleman's continued reference to a Budget Statement five weeks ago is now something of an anachronism. Has it not been overtaken by events? Is not the position today immeasurably worse than it was five weeks ago? Does his statement today mean that he does not intend to ask the banks to take any further credit restriction measures?
    Mr. Jenkins: No. The hon. Gentleman seems to be even more inaccurate than usual. With regard to the Question—and I take it that the hon. Gentleman's supplementary was intended to be related to the Question—the position has improved since Budget day. The April figures published after Budget day showed a substantial movement towards the ceiling. I expect and intend that movement to continue.
    Mr. Cant: Despite the protestations of my hon. Friends below the Gangway, are the steps which my right hon. Friend is taking in relation to the commercial banks, also the secondary banks and parallel money markets, and in relation to his new policy in the gilt-edged market, likely to produce an increase in money supply, taking into account a balance of payments deficit of less than 2 per cent. this year?
    Mr. Jenkins: That is an interesting but wide-ranging question, and before giving an affirmative, or indeed a negative, answer, I should like to see on paper the factors which my hon. Friend quite rightly listed. I must therefore be a little reserved in my reply. I can assure him, however, that I am not looking at this matter solely from the point of view of the clearing banks. I am also looking at it from the point of view of the Scottish banks, accepting houses and discount houses.
    Mr. Higgins: In view of the tremendous emphasis which the right hon. Gentleman is placing on the money supply, could he say why he has attempted to make no forecast of this in his financial
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    statement? Will he undertake to publish such a forecast in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
    Mr. Jenkins: I do not think that I should undertake for the moment to publish more forecasts. As I have often told the hon. Gentleman, who has an insatiable but understandable appetite for forecasts, I have gone much further in this direction than any of my predecessors.

    Import Deposit Scheme
    Sir G. Nabarroasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what decrease in imports and effect on the balance of payments has been achieved since the inauguration of the imports' deposit scheme; and whether he will now take steps to terminate this scheme on 31st July 1969.
    Mr. Taverne: Imports of goods mainly liable to the scheme averaged £235·5 million in the first five months of the scheme. In the previous five months they averaged £243 million. It is not possible to say what imports would have been in the absence of the scheme. The answer to the second part of the Question is "No, Sir".
    Sir G. Nabarro: Do not those figures show a diminution of less than 1 per cent. in the rate of imports? Having regard to the infinitesimal results and minimal outcome after such a brouhaha from the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the importance of the scheme, will he not scrap the scheme as soon as possible and have recourse, without exaggeration, to more effective methods?
    Mr. Taverne: I must inform the hon. Gentleman, despite the noise, that his arithmetic is not correct. If he reflects on the figures, he will see that there has been a decrease of 3 per cent.
    Mr. Blackburn: Since other efforts to control imports have failed lamentably, is it not time the Government gave further consideration to import controls, which some of us have been advocating since 1964?
    Mr. Taverne: The arguments for and against import controls have been elaborated since 1964. This is not the occasion on which to debate them.

    Marginal Rate of Tax (Percentage of Income)
    Mr. Hastingsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the maximum marginal rate of tax in the United Kingdom as a percentage of income; and at what income it begins.
    Mr. Diamond: 91·25 per cent. The point where it begins depends on the circumstances of the particular case; for example, for a married man with two children aged 11 and 16, and whose income is wholly earned, it begins at £18,951.
    Mr. Hastings: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the equivalent in West Germany is as low as 53 per cent. on an equivalent sum of a little over £20,000? Does he not think that the active encouragement of wealth, and thus saving, in West Germany, contrasted to its active discouragement under this Government, may have something to do with the relative performances of the West German and British economies?
    Mr. Diamond: I do not think that the two are related. But I should like to add to what the hon. Gentleman has said that the figure which I gave represents an average rate of tax of 60 per cent.

    Taxation
    Mr. Speedasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the current annual cost to the revenue of reducing direct and indirect taxation to the levels of those in existence at mid-September, 1964, including the abolition of new taxes introduced since that date.
    Mr. Diamond: None, Sir.
    Mr. Speed: Is it not a fact that the figure would be in excess of £2,000 million? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Chancellor has only five months in which to implement the Prime Minister's television election pledge of 15th September, 1964, when he said that the Labour Government's policies could be carried out over the period of a Parliament without any general increase in taxation?
    Mr. Diamond: I cannot offer a comment on the figure as no attempt has been
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    made to estimate it, and it is an impossible task to estimate it with any good sense.

    National Indebtedness
    Mr. J. H. Osbornasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what was the national indebtedness as at 5th April, 1969, both including and excluding central bank transactions, respectively, and including borrowing by public corporations and nationalised industries; and if he will give a breakdown of the total.
    Mr. Diamond: The provisional total for the nominal amount of the national debt outstanding on 31st March 1969 is approximately £33,960 million. Details are given in the May edition of "Financial Statistics", published today. Figures for outstanding borrowing by the nationalised industries at the same date are given in Table III of the White Paper on "Loans from the National Loans Fund, 1969–70" (Cmnd. 3995).
    Mr. Osborn: Whilst welcoming the reduction in national indebtedness as evidenced at the time of the Budget, may I ask for the establishment of regular machinery to show the extent of borrowing by nationalised industries overseas which is not investment, deferred payments for defence expenditure and bank transactions, so that we know at regular intervals where we are in terms of national indebtedness overseas?
    Mr. Diamond: With the exception of the last item, if the hon. Gentleman was referring to short-term bank transactions where it is not usual to disclose the figures, I will consider what he has said.

    Capital Outlay Overseas
    Mr. J. H. Osbornasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what has been the level of British capital outlay overseas including investment by industry, and bilateral and multilateral aid in the first quarter of the current year; what has been the corresponding level of capital expenditure and investment from overseas in this country; how the position differs from the same period last year; and what is now the underlying trend.
    Mr. Diamond: Estimates of United Kingdom long-term capital transactions in the first quarter will be published on

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    12th June. Estimates for the four quarters of 1968 were published in the March 1969 issue of "Economic Trends". I have nothing to add to the forecasts in the Financial Statement and Budget Report.
    Mr. Osborn: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the trend of investment from overseas in this country is continuing, and that it will support rising investment overseas during the current year?
    Mr. Diamond: The statement made in the first part of the question is correct, and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, the trend of investment overseas went up last year.

    Negative Income Tax
    Mr. Barnesasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what study he has made of the capacity of the Inland Revenue to handle a system of negative income tax as an earnings-related alternative to the present system of family allowances.
    Mr. Diamond: I have nothing to add to the reply given to my hon. Friend on 19th May by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services.—[Vol. 784, c. 23.]
    Mr. Barnes: Bearing in mind the problems which the Chancellor said this year prevented him from extending the claw-back to the whole of the family allowance, will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that he will keep negative income tax under review, since it could be a more effective way of paying adequate family allowances to those who really need them?
    Mr. Diamond: I certainly give my hon. Friend the assurance that we will keep it under review, although, as to the last part of his supplementary question, he will have heard what my right hon. Friend had to say.

    £ Sterling
    Mr. Martenasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on how many days since devaluation has the £ sterling been at $2·40 or above.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: On 98 working days.
    Mr. Marten: As the constant aim of this Government has been to strengthen
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    sterling, is not it an astonishing record that in the 550 days since devaluation only on 98 occasions has it touched parity or been above? Is not the only way to restore confidence in sterling to have a new Government?
    Mr. Jenkins: I should have thought it hardly worth the hon. Gentleman's while to put down that Question to enable him to lead to the conclusion which he repeats about five times a week. His arithmetic, as usual, is false. The comparison with 98 working days is not 550 days. The number of working days is much more like 300.

    Foreign Exchange Earnings
    Mr. Ridleyasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why he permits companies with overseas investments in the non-sterling area to plough back foreign exchange earnings, but refuses such facilities to companies without such investments.
    Mr. Taverne: In general, overseas subsidiaries are allowed to retain a sufficient proportion of their net earnings, normally about a third, to finance their normal development. This arrangement cannot apply to companies without overseas subsidiaries.
    Mr. Ridley: Surely we should allow overseas investments to be made in the most profitable field by those companies with the best prospects? It is quite anomalous to restrict overseas investments to those companies which have overseas earnings. Why do not the Government so set the price of foreign exchange that all may partake if it is worth their while?
    Mr. Taverne: The Government are under a duty to protect the reserves, and they have regulated overseas investment in such a way that it is running at historically high levels but at the same time imposing the minimum burden on the reserves.

    Borrowing Requirement
    Mr. Maurice Macmillanasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer why figures showing the components of the estimated borrowing requirement for 1968–69 were not published in the April issue of "Financial Statistics".
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: The provisional out-turn estimate of the Central Government borrowing requirement for 1968–69 was not available in time for inclusion in the April issue of "Financial Statistics".
    Mr. Macmillan: Why has it taken so long to discover what in the net receipts for market transactions is the proportion of marketable securities? Is it because, out of a total of £998 million, only £821 million is the much-vaunted negative borrowing requirement and £453 million is the actual creation of new inflationary money?
    Mr. Jenkins: This relates to the publication of particular figures. The figures about which the hon. Gentleman asked in his original Question, not the entirely extraneous figures he produced in his supplementary question, were published in the financial statement of 15th April. They could not be included in the regular financial statistics published later, because at Budget time it is necessary to give printing priority to the annual statements, and this makes it possible to publish the figures at a later stage than in the regular monthly publications.

    Services Training (Dartmoor)
    Mr. Carol Johnsonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what request the Duchy of Cornwall has received for a renewal of the licences for Services training on Dartmoor after 1970.
    Mr. Diamond: Discussions about the renewal of licences for the Services to train on Dartmoor are taking place, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence will be making a statement in due course.
    Mr. Johnson: In considering the application, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that demands for land on Dartmoor are growing rapidly, and that it is desirable that at least some areas of Dartmoor which are at present occupied by the Services should be available for public access after 1970?
    Mr. Diamond: I assure my hon. Friend that these matters will be taken very carefully into account.

    New Savings Schemes
    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what progress
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    has been made in preparing the new savings schemes outlined in the Budget.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: The Department for National Savings is continuing its administrative planning for S.A.Y.E. The Trustee Savings Banks have announced their intention to set up a parallel scheme. The target date for both these schemes is October next.
    Mr. Taylor: As, since the Budget, savings have been disappointing, and in view of the deteriorating economic position, is there any likelihood of advancing the date from October to perhaps a month earlier?
    Mr. Jenkins: I do not think so. I should very much like to have these schemes in operation at the earliest possible date, but I must have regard to practical administrative considerations. The Premium Bonds Scheme when it was announced in 1956 took 14 months to bring into operation. We are improving on that. If I can further improve on it I should like to do so, but I hold out no hope of being able to do it.
    Mr. Maxwell: Will my right hon. Friend consider inviting the National Savings Committee to encourage people on P.A.Y.E. to put part of their overtime earnings into a savings scheme, and will he consider exempting those savings from tax? This would be an incentive to work harder and encourage savings.
    Mr. Jenkins: I went to considerable lengths in my Budget speech, for precisely the reason that I was at first attracted by this proposal, to explain why the scheme could not be directly related to overtime, and why it was best to give the reward in the form of a tax-free bonus at the end of the period rather than give tax exemption at the beginning of the period, and this view was shared by those most concerned with the savings scheme.

    Tax Revenue
    Mr. Edward M. Taylorasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total tax revenue which he estimates will be raised in 1969–70; what was the actual tax revenue raised in 1963–64; and by what percentage the former figure exceeds the latter.
    Mr. Diamond: After making the appropriate adjustment for S.E.T. refunds, corporation tax overspill relief

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    and the change to investment grants, £12,645 million in 1969–70 and £6,649 million in 1963–64. Before taking into account the substantial increase in incomes, the first figure exceeds the second by roughly 90 per cent., but after making such allowances it is under 30 per cent., or about 4 per cent. per annum on average.
    Mr. Taylor: Are not these shameful figures? Does the Minister think that we shall ever solve the country's economic problems so long as enterprise and initiative have to bear such a heavy burden of taxation?
    Mr. Diamond: I do not accept that there is an excessive burden of taxation placed on enterprise, and I am unable to imagine how we can solve our problems if we take no account of those who are in need, for example, of the social services.
    Mr. Maclennan: Does my right hon. Friend realise that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) is constantly expressing the view that the Government should increase public expenditure in the Upper Clyde Shipyard, which can be done only by taxation?
    Mr. Diamond: Yes, I recognise that. It would be unfair to pick out one aspect. The hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends continually ask for increases in public expenditure of one kind or the other.

    Sterling (Exchange Rate)
    Mr. Biffenasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in the light of recent speculation in international currencies, he will now commission a study to determine the advantage of a more flexible exchange rate for sterling.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: No, Sir.
    Mr. Biffen: Why is the right hon. Gentleman so obstinate in his refusal to consider the possible advantages of a more flexible exchange rate? Has attention been drawn to the fact that two of the leading protagonists of the money supply school to which he has now been converted, Dr. Milton Freedman and Dr. Harry Johnston, also are advocates of more flexible exchange rates?
    Mr. Jenkins: The hon. Gentleman should not assume that I have been converted
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    to the money supply school, which is rather different from the views I have expressed. Nor should he assume that an inquiry or commission to study the advantages would be the most sensible approach, even assuming that I thought there were advantages to be gained. I do not think that such a movement as the hon. Member suggests would solve the present world monetary difficulties. But even if I thought it would, I am extremely doubtful whether a commission would be the right approach.

    Occupational Pension Schemes
    Sir B. Rhys Williamsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) if he will seek to introduce legislation to empower his Department to consent to transfers of pension rights between occupational schemes in any cases in which at present they are debarred from doing so by statute;
    (2) what steps he will take to make it permissible for trustees of occupational pension schemes approved under Section 379 of the Income Tax Act 1952 to pay tax-free lump sums on retirement in addition to periodic payments thereafter in the same way as the Civil Service Scheme.
    Mr. Diamond: The two points to which the hon. Member refers will be considered, with others, in the course of the general review of the tax rules affecting occupational superannuation schemes which the Inland Revenue has been asked to undertake. I cannot forecast the outcome of the review.
    Sir B. Rhys Williams: Will the Minister say how long the review will take? What is the point in elaborating in the Budget a savings scheme while leaving unattended the law relating to pensions, when everybody knows what is happening to people who leave them in occupational schemes?
    Mr. Diamond: The review will be completed as quickly as possible. With regard to the second part of the question, if I understood it aright, one of the aims of the review is to clarify and simplify the tax rules.

    Balance of Payments
    Mr. Sheldonasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has

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    now made of the balance of payments position for 1969.
    Mr. Barnettasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what he now expects to be the outcome on balance of payments for 1969; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: I have nothing to add to the reply to similar Questions given by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary on 13th May.—[Vol. 783, c. 1209–11.]
    Mr. Sheldon: Is my right hon. Friend aware that one of the advantages of introducing selective import quotas at present is that if the optimists are right that the balance of payments will improve the quotas can be withdrawn? On the other hand, if the balance of payments does not proceed as well as one might hope, the sooner such controls are introduced the better.
    Mr. Jenkins: Yes, as my hon. Friend the Minister of State indicated earlier, there are, however, substantial disadvantages to selective import quotas.
    Mr. Barnett: What does the Chancellor estimate will be the effect on the balance of payments of any reduction in the money supply which he has in mind; in other words, a reduction of £100 million? What will be the effect on unemployment, and to what level does he intend to keep money supply this year? Does he still persist in his central forecast of 3½ per cent. growth in 1969–70?
    Mr. Jenkins: In giving my central forecast for economic growth—I am not sure the post-Budget situation was exactly as my hon. Friend has stated it; I think that was pre-Budget—I took into account my intention, announced in the Budget, to pursue a strict monetary policy. My hon. Friend is making the mistake of talking about reductions in money supply and of exactly equating money supply questions with questions of monetary policy. I cannot give him an exact mechanical answer to the two other questions.
    Mr. Iain Macleod: Has not the Chancellor made a pronouncement since the one to which his hon. Friend referred? Did he not last week, first of all, finally abandon the £500 million target, and,
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    second, did he not slip, deliberately of course, from the calendar to the financial year, thereby obliterating three disastrous months of this year?
    Mr. Jenkins: I have no desire to obliterate anything. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] The right hon. Gentleman should not exaggerate his disastrous months. January was not a disastrous month at all. My object remains to get a very substantial sustainable balance of payments surplus.
    Hon. Members: When?
    Mr. Jenkins: I must be frank with the right hon. Gentleman and with the House—[Interruption.] I hope that we can have a serious discussion of this matter in the House, otherwise there is no point in answering anything other than "No, Sir" or whatever it may be. I accept the fact that we have not achieved this target as fast as we had hoped to do. None the less, I believe that it would be wrong to abandon the target, and I think that we can get a substantial surplus in the year which is now beginning.

    Savings
    Mr. Barnettasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is his latest estimate of the increase in real net savings from the new scheme outlined in his Budget.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: I am confident that Save As You Earn will produce worthwhile new savings, but as I said in my Budget statement it is not possible to calculate the response in advance.
    Mr. Barnett: The Chancellor said in his Budget Statement that he would measure the response and seize it. Does it mean that, if in 1969–70 there is a substantial response, he will adjust some other part of his strategy, that is to say, to allow money supply to grow at a greater rate, or perhaps to have an autumn Budget to reduce taxation?
    Mr. Jenkins: My hon. Friend persists in talking about money supply. I prefer to talk about the effectiveness of credit policy as a whole. But to the extent that savings gave a substantial response in 1969–70, or indeed in any other year, this would have an automatic effect on the level of credit created.
    Mr. Grant: The Chancellor has said that there should be a substantial increase in savings. Has he considered the dis-savings created by his overdraft proposals in the Finance Bill? If the scheme is a success, will he extend it to equities if necessary, some time in the future?
    Mr. Jenkins: I recognise the part played last year by the hon. Member for Harrow, Central (Mr. Grant) in encouraging savings schemes, but I find his logic a little difficult to follow. I find it difficult to see that a tax disincentive to borrowing will encourage dis-saving. On the second part of his question, dealing with investment in equities, I would not close my mind to it, though I believe that at the moment it is overwhelmingly desirable to invest at fixed interest.

    Tax Liability Claims
    Mr. Dudley Smithasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in cases where the Inland Revenue authorities query the tax liability on substantial amounts of money and the Commissioners subsequently decide in favour of the individual, he will grant the professional costs, wholly, necessarily and exclusively incurred in proving non-liability.
    Mr. Diamond: Commissioners hearing appeals against tax assessments are not authorised to make an award of costs to any of the parties concerned.
    Mr. Smith: Is the Chief Secretary aware that I have a constituent of limited means who has been told by his advisers that when his appeal comes before the commissioners he will have to find about £300 in legal fees? Is this justice for the small man?
    Mr. Diamond: I am aware that the hon. Gentleman has a constituent. Neither of us is aware what the future may hold. But the hon. Gentleman should remember that when this matter was considered by the Royal Commission on taxation it came to the conclusion that the appeal commissioners should not have the same powers as the courts to award costs.

    Selective Employment Tax (Theatrical Employment)
    Mr. Hugh Jenkinsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will take steps to include all theatrical employment in the category of those employments
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    entitled to the refund of selective employment tax.
    Mr. Diamond: No, Sir. All forms of entertainment fall within the services sector.
    Mr. Jenkins: Does my right hon. Friend not realise that the theatre outside London is in serious decline? If he will not remove the selective employment tax altogether, will he consider the possibility of excluding taxable employment outside the metropolis?
    Mr. Diamond: I am aware of the problem to which my hon. Friend has drawn attention, and I am concerned about it. I do not think that the removal of selective employment tax will cure it. I am afraid the answer I must give to his precise request is, "No, Sir".

    "Save-As-You-Earn" Scheme
    Mr. Henry Clarkasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer which particular income group his 'Save-As-You-Earn" scheme is aimed to attract.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: I hope that the scheme will appeal widely across income groups. But, as I said in my Budget Statement, it is directed primarily at people who at present save little and who may be attracted by a scheme which offers a generous return and facilities for regular small payments out of income, where possible by deductions from pay.
    Mr. Clark: In his reply, is not the right hon. Gentleman talking about the administrative arrangements, about which we have heard nothing? Does he not consider that the long delay before any return is made on savings and the very high interest rate after tax are more likely to encourage switching among those who already own capital rather than private savings in the lower inome groups?
    Mr. Jenkins: I am not discussing administrative arrangements at all. I am answering a question which asks to whom I think the scheme will appeal. In any savings scheme there is the difficulty that it is liable to appeal more intensively to people on high tax rates. This is almost inevitable, and it is something that I pointed out last year to right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite who were rather reluctant to recognise it. By directing this scheme where we have and by restricting the amounts to £120 a year which may be

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    saved in each part of the scheme, I think that we shall get the main bulk of the money from the sources from which we most wish to encourage it.
    Mr. Macdonald: Are the classes which my right hon. Friend has in mind not also particularly attracted to spend money on such items as provident checks and budget accounts? If the scheme is to be a success, as we all hope, is it not desirable to exercise that measure of control of these forms of spending in the same way as it is on hire purchase?
    Mr. Jenkins: I recognise the force of my hon. Friend's point. That is a matter directly within the terms of reference of the Crowther Committee which is considering matters related to hire-purchase credit generally.
    Mr. Henry Clarkasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what market research among potential savers was carried out by his Department before deciding on the "Save-As-You-Earn" scheme announced in the Budget.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: None by the Treasury and specifically related to this scheme; but we were able to consult surveys of attitudes to savings carried out on behalf of the Post Office in 1966 and the National Savings Committee in 1968.
    Mr. Clark: With the abysmal record of the Post Office Savings Bank and the poorer record of the National Savings Committees over recent years, does the right hon. Gentleman consider them to be a reliable fount of knowledge? Is it not the most primitive type of marketing to launch a scheme based on the Treasury's hunches?
    Mr. Jenkins: It has not been launched on the Treasury's hunches but on the advice of those who carry responsibility to organise the scheme. The hon. Gentleman is being disparaging to those who work in National Savings Committees. Certainly it represents their view. The right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) was good enough to say that there was very little difference between us on the matter. I endeavoured to arrive at the best savings scheme on the advice of those most directly concerned, not only savings committees but the C.B.I. and the T.U.C. and others,
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    which would appeal to those in whom we wish to inculcate the savings habit.
    Mr. Grant: Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to a study carried out by the Wider Share Ownership Council among new savers, which makes it clear that new savers are more attracted by shares in unit trusts and equities than National Savings?
    Mr. Jenkins: Yes, I am aware of that survey, among others. But it would not have been right to start a new savings scheme directed towards equities at the time of the Budget.
    Mr. Eddie Griffiths: Has my right hon. Friend consulted the trade union movement as to the reaction of trade unionists to this excellent savings scheme?
    Mr. Jenkins: Most closely. I consulted the T.U.C. and other bodies in drawing up the scheme, and I was influenced by its views as well as those of others.

    Personal Clothing (Tax Allowance)
    Mr. Danceasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer on what basis the Inland Revenue agrees claims for expenditure on personal clothing as a deduction for tax purposes.
    Mr. Diamond: Normal expenditure on personal clothing is not an allowable expense. Under the statutory rule applicable to office holders and employees expenditure is deductible only if it is incurred wholly, exclusively and necessarily in the performance of the duties of the office or employment. For the self-employed the test is whether the expenditure is incurred wholly and exclusively for the purposes of the trade or profession.
    Mr. Dance: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that is a most complicated answer? How do people apply for this allowance? That is what I am trying to get clear.
    Mr. Diamond: By writing to the Inspector of Taxes setting out the circumstances.
    Mr. Ogden: Is my right hon. Friend aware that when I worked down the pits one Sunday suit lasted me five years and that on the back benches a suit does not last five minutes?
    Mr. Diamond: I am not sure whether my hon. Friend is basing his case on the fact that his clothes are exclusive, but the expenditure has to be "necessarily incurred" as well.

    Current Price Forecasts
    Mr. Higginsasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will publish the current price forecasts corresponding to the constant price forecasts made in Table 3 of the Financial Statement 1969–70.
    Mr. Taverne: No, Sir. I believe that for the time being we must concentrate on developing the constant price forecasts that I published in detail for the first time last year.
    Mr. Higgins: If the hon. and learned Gentleman had any faith in the Government's prices and incomes norms, why should this present any difficulty?
    Mr. Taverne: The hon. Gentleman will know that those who have studied this carefully realise that there are risks and advantages in different kinds of forecasts. They have to be balanced against each other. Certainly he cannot accuse the Government of being slow in coming forward with forecasts which have helped informed discussion.

  PRIME MINISTER'S PHOTOGRAPH (PRESENTATION COPIES)
  Mr. Speedasked the Prime Minister how many presentation copies of his photograph he has given away officially, at the public expense, in the last 12 months.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): Detailed information is not readily available but expenditure is currently about £150 a year and is in line with similar expenditure by my predecessors.
  Mr. Speed: I thank the Prime Minister for that reply. Would he consider reserving the last official photograph to send to the Secretary of State for Social Services as an aide memoire when the date of the next General Election is announced?
  Mr. Atkinson: Will my right hon. Friend agree that this is a question of permitted expenditure? I hope that he will not be intimidated by some of the frivolities opposite. However, would he
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  declare to the wider Labour movement that it is not possible for a permanent official to forbid expenditure being committed by a Minister?
  Mr. Speaker: Order. This Question is about photographs.

  FRENCH GOVERNMENT (DISCUSSIONS)
  Mr. Martenasked the Prime Minister whether he will arrange to meet the Prime Minister of France.
  Mr. Wyattasked the Prime Minister whether he will invite the Prime Minister of France to consider for discussion the British application to join the Common Market.
  The Prime Minister: As I told my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster (Mr. Henig) on 6th May, further discussions with the French Government must await the result of the French elections.—[Vol. 783, c. 262–3.]
  Mr. Marten: When the Prime Minister meets the French Prime Minister, would he make a point of discussing with him the recent Anglo-Italian declaration at the conclusion of the Italian President's visit here in which the British Government pledged itself to an elected Parliament in the Common Market? Surely if that means anything at all, other than another toothless discussion group, is it not a supranational body, to which the Prime Minister has always declared his opposition?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. Despite the hon. Gentleman's great knowledge of the subject, it is obvious that he has not recently studied the provisions for a Parliamentary Assembly under the Common Market rules. There is nothing supranational about this proposal.
  Mr. Wyatt: As both Presidential candidates in France support British entry into the Common Market, as Herr Strauss is fully in support at well, and as, for once, the Common Market needs us more than we need it, is this not a more favourable opportunity than we are likely to get for a long time to pursue our application? Is my right hon. Friend further aware that he is to be commended for

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  having the foresight to leave our application on the table?
  The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is slightly wide of the mark when he refers to "both candidates". I understand that there are more than two—[Interruption.] It is not for me to select between them. That is a matter for the people of France. More than two have been nominated.
  On the second part of my hon. Friend's question, I think that recent events show that the Government were wise to leave the application on the table and not be deterred by a temporary road block.
  Mrs. Ewing: Will the Prime Minister assure the President of France that he would be most welcome to visit Scotland, and will he further assure him that he, in accordance with the highly developed French sense of justice, should ascertain the view of the Scots to the Common Market before assuming that all the people of Britain wish to enter it?
  The Prime Minister: I will bear that point in mind when in due course there is a President of France and I am then able to meet him. However, he will be dealing with the Government representing the United Kingdom, of course.

  CONTAINER FLEET (TILBURY BERTH)
  Mr. Ian Lloydasked the Prime Minister why he has refused to receive the delegation of hon. Members who sought to make representations to him about the obstructions which have prevented the British container fleet from using its specialised berth at Tilbury.
  The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, I asked my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity to receive the delegation and he did so on 5th May.
  Mr. Lloyd: Why has the Prime Minister's approach to the question shown all the restrained enthusiasm of an amorous porcupine?—[Interruption.] Does he share the view expressed by his right hon. Friend that the comparative performance of British and Continental ports is a matter of life and death for this country? Will he, therefore, adopt a
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  more positive approach than the sustained and vigorous ineptitude that the Government have so far shown?
  The Prime Minister: My enthusiasm for seeing this problem settled is at least as great as that of the hon. Gentleman, even if it is not expressed in such fine flights of oratory. But my enthusiasm for dealing with it is not to be measured by my inability at a particular moment to meet the hon. Gentleman and others of his hon. Friends. We all share the desire to settle this. I therefore asked my hon. Friend to meet them. This does not rule out—I hope some time after the recess—a meeting with the senior Ministers concerned. Inevitably, more than one Department is involved, but I hope that it will be possible to arrange a meeting.
  Dame Irene Ward: Is the Prime Minister aware that the junior Minister who met the deputation really was rather restrained because he thought there might be a settlement with the ports concerned, which did not prove to be true? What is the good of a junior Minister? We really want the Prime Minister, so that we can tell him how very inept they have been in dealing with this important question—[Interruption.] That is what we will tell him—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Questions should be reasonably brief. Mr. Prime Minister.
  Dame Irene Ward: May I just—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady must round off her question.
  Dame Irene Ward: I will round off my question if hon. Gentlemen opposite will stop shouting at me. Will the Prime Minister now give us an assurance that he will meet the deputation after the Whitsun Recess?
  The Prime Minister: If the hon. Lady can carry her mind right back to the beginning of that question, she will remember her reference to my hon. Friend's view that at an extremely delicate stage of the negotiations it would not be wise for him to say too much. I am sure that, with her long experience of these matters, she will agree with that. Obviously this matter can only be settled by negotiation. I hope that it will be

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  settled. My right hon. Friends and I are doing what we can to ensure that it happens. At the right time, as I have said, after the recess—not this week, not next week—I hope that my right hon. Friends the Minister of Transport and the First Secretary might have a chance of meeting any hon. Members concerned with this problem. If there is any purpose to be served in my seeing them, I should be happy to do so at a convenient time.
  Mr. McNamara: Is my right hon. Friend aware that we on this side think that the Government have tried to deal with this problem very sensibly? This is a very delicate situation and there are real fears among the workers concerned. Rather than going at the problem like a bull in a china shop, the Prime Minister and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity have adopted the right attitude.
  The Prime Minister: I certainly agree that there are anxieties on the part of the men concerned, and this matter must be handled with very great care. At the same time, I think we all recognise that it would be nothing short of a tragedy if, because of an inability to reach agreement on these matters, we lost this vitally important trade to the Continent, recalling that containerisation is probably the biggest revolution that has hit the shipping industry almost since it went from wood to iron and from sail to steam.
  Mr. Wingfield Digby: Is the Prime Minister aware that the position seems to have deteriorated since the delegation was received, and that, meanwhile, our foreign competitors are free to use the container terminal at Tilbury?
  The Prime Minister: It is for that kind of reason that I said that failure to settle the problem will be a tragedy, which I know is recognised by the hon. Member for Tynemoulth (Dame Irene Ward) and by the hon. Gentleman who saw my hon. Friend not long ago. We shall continue to press on with this question. I do not want to raise any hopes that it will be easy to settle. I believe that it must be settled and that it is in the national interest that it should be settled.

  SHAH OF IRAN (EXCHANGE OF VIEWS)
  Mr. Ogdenasked the Prime Minister if he will invite the Shah of Iran to make an official visit to Great Britain.
  Mr. Roebuckasked the Prime Minister whether he will make an official visit to the Shahinshah of Iran.
  The Prime Minister: We are always happy to welcome His Imperial Majesty in this country, and we greatly value opportunities to exchange views with him. However, the very full programme of visits for this year would make difficult an invitation to the Shah, or a journey to Iran by myself, in the immediate future.
  Mr. Ogden: Would not such a visit enable His Imperial Majesty to visit those parts of the Kingdom which he has not already visited and where he would be most welcome? Would it not also enable our two Governments to dispel any lingering doubts in the minds of those who think that the peace and prosperity of the Middle East depends on British Forces remaining in that area?
  The Prime Minister: As I have said, we shall be extremely glad to welcome His Imperial Majesty to this country at a time which will be convenient to him, when he will be able to visit other parts of the country apart from London.
  Concerning international policies in respect of the Persian Gulf, all I know is from reports that I have seen of the Shah's statement on the matter.
  Mr. Roebuck: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the credibility of the Leader of the Opposition is at stake in this matter? Is he aware that the Leader of the Opposition recently returned from a disgraceful party political rampage round the Gulf with a tale that the Iranians would welcome the retention of British troops in the area and that the Shah has made a statement to the contrary and given the Leader of the Opposition the brush-off? Would it not be a good idea to have an official meeting followed by a joint communiqué to set out the facts?
  The Prime Minister: I was not aware that the right hon. Gentleman had any

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  credibility. I certainly acquit him of the charge that he was engaged on a party political tour of that area, because even he will have discovered by this time that there are no votes in that area. All I know of what the Shah said to the right hon. Gentleman was in an interview ascribed to the Shah—naturally we cannot check how accurately he was reported—in which he said:
  "I told him (Mr. Heath) that nobody will want British troops back in the Persian Gulf."
  Mr. Heath: If the Prime Minister could turn his mind for a moment from the question of trying to win votes for his party to the more important question of maintaining British interests, may I ask him whether he agrees that it is the responsibility of the British Government and the British Parliament to protect and maintain British interests, and that His Imperial Majesty the Shah would not wish to dictate our policy to us any more than we would wish to dictate his to him?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, as long as the right hon. Gentleman is not responsible for letters to the Sunday Times suggesting that this is not what His Imperial Majesty said, because we know what he said from the interview, and I do not think that he has denied responsibility for the interview. I agree with the general dictum of the right hon. Gentleman about its being the duty of the Government of this country to protect British interests, but we do not believe that it will be done by maintaining troops where they are not wanted.
  Mr. Heath: Why did the Prime Minister, the Minister of Defence and the Foreign Secretary believe that until the precise moment when they had to do a sordid party deal to reimpose prescription charges?
  The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman seems to have moved a long way from his last Question about British interests and not making party politics.
  Hon. Members: Answer.
  The Prime Minister: We made it clear long before any decision was taken about prescription charges that there would be an evacuation from areas where British troops are at present, as the right hon. Gentleman will recognise if he studies
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  the defence White Paper of six months earlier.
  Mr. Walters: If the Prime Minister has any talks with either the Shah or the Iranian Government, will he make it clear that it would be a great mistake for Iran to presume that British influence will be diminished in the Gulf whatever specific policy is adopted in 1970?
  The Prime Minister: I think that it is certainly right to say, if I have understood the hon. Gentleman aright, that British influence will continue to be maintained in the Gulf and that it is certainly not dependent on the maintenance of troops. One thing which has heartened many of us, although there is a long way to go here, is the way in which many of the Trucial Sheiks have begun to work together in matters of defence instead of relying on troops from outside.
  Mr. Henig: Has my right hon. Friend made any detailed calculation of how much it would cost this country if we were to adopt the overseas military policies suggested by the Leader of the Opposition, and can my right hon. Friend say how much increased taxation this would be likely to result in?
  The Prime Minister: I think that some authoritative estimates were put forward by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence during the last defence debate. Certainly the increased expenditure to which the right hon. Gentleman considers himself committed would make utter nonsense of his pledges to reduce Government expenditure and taxation.
  Mr. Lubbock: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the methods by which our balance of payments could be brought rapidly into balance is by an acceleration of our withdrawal from the Persian Gulf and the Far East, and that this would be a better way of convincing the International Monetary Fund of the strength of our intentions than imposing charges on false teeth and spectacles?
  The Prime Minister: The timing of this matter was carefully considered, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that the timing is in the best national interest, and does also provide the most economical use of the resources available for defence. The hon. Gentleman is going a

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  long way from the real facts in the situation if he relates teeth and spectacles to the I.M.F.

ABORTION ACT (MEMBER'S QUESTION)
Mr. Speaker: Mr. St. John-Stevas. To raise a point of order.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: Mr. Speaker, I wish to raise a point of order of which I have given you notice. It arises out of Question Time yesterday, when I addressed a Question to the Secretary of State for Social Services on the working of the Abortion Act.
It was then put to the Secretary of State by the hon. Member for Manchester, Exchange (Mr. Will Griffiths) that in a widely publicised statement I had said that thousands of foreign women were flocking to London to use the facilities of the National Health Service made available by the abortion law. That statement was made without any attempt to check the facts, and I was rebuked by the Secretary of State for making it.
Owing to the manner in which the matter was raised I had no opportunity to defend myself. I have never made any such statement, either inside this House or outside it, and I seek your guidance as to how this kind of injustice can be remedied within the rules of order of the House.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member is entitled to seek my private advice, as he did this morning, but he will appreciate that guidance from the Chair on how to raise matters during the course of future proceedings in the House cannot be dealt with by question and answer now. The personal explanation which the hon. Member sought my permission to make would, in my view, inevitably have led to controversy, and, consequently, to an irregular debate.
In those circumstances, I could not allow it, and that is as far as the Chair can go without being drawn into an argument which would be wholly out of order this afternoon. The hon. Member will find the rules and guidance on personal statements at page 373 in the current edition of Erskine May.
Sir A. V. Harvey: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Could not this matter be concluded if the Minister responsible apologised to my hon. Friend?
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. and gallant Member must not seek to draw the Chair into matters of controversy between hon. Members.
Mr. Orme: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker: I was hoping that we could proceed.
Mr. Orme: I know. The hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) was in the House yesterday, as I was, when this exchange took place with the Minister. The hon. Gentleman made no effort to repudiate the statement, and I suggest that as he did not attempt to correct it then he has no right to do so now.
Mr. Speaker: Order. If the hon. Member reads tomorrow the Ruling that I have just made, he will see that we cannot enter by question and answer on a controversial topic like this at this moment.
Mr. Will Griffiths: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. As the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) has mentioned me, I should like to say, first, that during the years I have been in the House I have never known such a procedure as has been employed today, inasmuch as I was not informed by the hon. Gentleman that he intended to raise this matter today.
Hon. Members: Oh.
Mr. Griffiths: Second, hon. Members join in the exchanges and debates and put supplementary questions, and what I said yesterday was based upon my recollection of an interview which the hon. Gentleman gave on B.B.C. radio in the "World at One". Had the hon. Gentleman done me the courtesy of informing me of his objection—and I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) that the hon. Gentleman made no attempt to raise this matter yesterday—I should certainly have looked at the transcript of the programme, and, as is the custom of the House, if I had done the hon. Gentleman an injustice then those who know me know that I should have had the good grace to withdraw what I said.
Mr. St. John-Stevas Mr. St. John-Stevas rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. Even Mr. Speaker has the right to speak.
The exchanges that are taking place at the moment show just how wise Erskine May is in the Rulings and the advice that it gives on personal statements and in the discretion that it gives to Mr. Speaker not to allow them if he thinks they are controversial.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: Further to that last point of order, Mr. Speaker. I entirely accept your Ruling, but may I say that at half-past ten this morning I rang the secretary to the hon. Member for Manchester, Exchange (Mr. Will Griffiths) to inform the hon. Gentleman that I intended raising this matter with you. I also wrote a letter to the hon. Gentleman, which I left on the Letter Board before luncheon, so that he should be present. I do not wish to pursue the matter further. I am satisfied that my point has been made.
Mr. Will Griffiths: Mr. Speaker, I apologise to you and to the House. I just want to record as a matter of fact and truth that I have just walked into the Chamber and I have been given two letters from the Board. Neither of them is from the hon. Gentleman, and I have received no message of any kind. I am not accusing the hon. Gentleman, but I owe it to myself and to my hon. Friends to record all I know to be the truth as I understand it.
Mr. Speaker: There is obviously a failure in communication between the two hon. Members. The House accepts in good faith the words of each of the two hon. Members.

MINISTRY OF PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS (DIRECTLY EMPLOYED LABOUR)
The Minister of Public Building and Works (Mr. John Silkin): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a statement about the use of directly employed labour (D.E.L.) within my Department.
The House will recall that, in 1963, the works organisations of the Service Departments were merged with the Ministry of Public Building and Works. This involved the rationalisation of many
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aspects of my Department's work, including the management control of D.E.L. The use and employment of this merged labour force has been subjected to the closest and most careful investigation. As a result, I am now in a position to state the conclusions that I have reached concerning the use of D.E.L. on maintenance work by my Ministry at home.
I have no doubt that the retention of a permanent D.E.L. is completely justified; and my aim is to ensure that the men I employ are given the opportunity to demonstrate that their efficiency can stand objective comparison with any other labour force in the country.
Briefly, I intend to employ D.E.L. in three sets of circumstances. The first will be on operating basic services such as running boilers and operating sewerage works. My D.E.L. has years of accumulated experience and expertise in tackling the Ministry's requirements in this field and it would be unrealistic to consider the possibility of any other agency providing these services.
The second circumstance will be where the client Department's special requirements, such as interrupted working or the need for on-call staff, demand a particular type of service which D.E.L. can provide in an eminently suitable manner.
The third will be where the requirements of the work can most effectively and economically be met by the use of D.E.L. In this third field, cost is a very important element and local comparisons with the cost of employing contractors will be made.
I am glad to say that agreement has been reached with the trade unions on the measures required for determining the use of directly employed labour on maintanence work in my Ministry. Their agreement is subject, of course, to continuing consultation in the normal way during the process of putting these measures which I have announced into effect. I am grateful to the unions for their constructive attitude and help throughout the discussions with them.
The total numbers involved, excluding supervisors and apprentices are about 29,000 men employed in over 300 different depots. About 18,000 of these men will be needed for operating basic services and meeting client Departments' special requirements. For the rest, it will be necessary to determine at each

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depot the extent to which D.E.L. or contractors are likely to give the more effective and economic results. I intend to issue early instructions both in general and also on the methods of undertaking cost comparisons. The results should begin to show in the depots in the autumn.
I have made it clear to the trade unions that the application of these criteria will, in my view, make some reduction in the size of the labour force inevitable, but maximum use will be made of natural wastage to ease the problem. At this stage, however, it is not possible to estimate either the extent of these reductions or the areas likely to be most affected; the outcome will depend on the results of cost comparisons.
If reductions in staff, other than through natural wastage, are necessary they will be made with as much understanding as possible in accordance with the redundancy procedures already agreed with the unions, in close consultations with the unions at all levels and with those Departments closely concerned with development areas, in particular that of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Economic Affairs.
My Department has for some time been pursuing measures aimed at increasing the effectiveness of all my D.E.L. by improving its organisation and management, and further such measures will be introduced later this year. I am currently engaged in an examination of the feasibility of introducing a productivity agreement for the men which will form part of my general plan for ensuring that my D.E.L. force is as efficient and productive as I can make it.
I am certain that all these steps will lead to a better organised, more efficient and stable labour force, one of which the Department can justly continue to be proud.
Mr. Chichester-Clark: I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his first appearance at the Dispatch Box in his new job.
The right hon. Gentleman's statement is somewhat long and will require a good deal of study. That study would have been easier if the House had not been kept in the dark about the contents of the second and third Mann Reports. Will
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the right hon. Gentleman now belatedly publish those reports, together with his conclusions, so that the House may be able to reach a judgment on the matter? Is he aware that, at the moment, it is only able to judge on the basis of leaks through the Daily Express and Tribune?
Will the right hon. Gentleman also take the House into his confidence on the results of his comparative studies between the efficacy of private enterprise and the D.E.L. in the depots?
Finally, in view of the record of other direct labour departments generally, will he take this opportunity to refute the suggestion that he is thinking of setting up a State building corporation?
Mr. Silkin: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind remarks at the beginning of his questions.
I know that he is aware that certain of the information given to the Mann Committee was on the basis that there would be no publication, and I am sure he will agree that that part of any report simply must not be published, as it would be a breach of faith.
I decided not to publish the second and third reports of the Mann Committee because, having examined them, I concluded that they would be somewhat misleading. This is because they concentrated on a very small sample of depots—under 6 per cent. and not statistically significant, in my view. Furthermore, they concentrated on one simple form of contract and not the general range of contracts. Therefore, to have published them would have been rather like taking a signpost out of its hole and presenting that. It is the destination that we are concerned with.
On the question of comparison between my D.E.L. and private contractors, I would remind the hon. Gentleman that this is the purpose of the exercise. I hope to be in position to be able to deal more effectively with this question in a few months' time, probably towards the autumn.
The hon. Gentleman's third question concerned the setting up of a State building corporation. I do not think that that comes within the scope of a statement on the use of maintenance by my Department at home.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I know that this is the Minister's maiden appearance at

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the Dispatch Box, but answers must be reasonably brief.
Mr. C. Pannell: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. This is a highly technical matter, which has been considered by five successive Ministers of Public Building and Works, including a right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite. Surely it is only a simple-minded person who thinks that one can give simple answers to such involved questions as this.
Mr. Speaker: I am aware of the circumstances and of the experience of the right hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. C. Pannell) in this field.
Mr. Heffer: Can my right hon. Friend give us a further outline of the discussions which have taken place and the agreement reached with the trade unions? Secondly, would not he agree that, when there is cost comparability with private enterprise, it must be taken into consideration that all public enterprise in the building industry starts off at a disadvantage of 20 per cent. overheads because, first, it pays sickness benefits which do not apply in private enterprise, and, secondly, it gives full payment for building operatives in bad weather which also does not apply in private enterprise?
Mr. Silkin: I know that my hon. Friend has great expertise and interest in this subject. The procedure adopted in discussions with the trade unions was quite different in the Ministry's procedure from the Mann Committee procedure because the Mann Committee did not have the benefit of discussions with the trade unions, whereas we have.
The trade unions were brought in during exploratory work in our Bournemouth depot and on a large number of occasions at both headquarters and regional levels, and, finally, in the Whitley Council and local working parties. We have worked with the trade unions right the way through and I intend to see that we continue to do so.
I want to make it perfectly clear that the cost comparisons will be as fair in every possible sense of the word as we can make them.
Sir J. Rodgers: I commiserate with the right hon. Gentleman on being translated from Chief Whip to Minister of Public Building and Works. Will he state his
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explicit reasons for refusing to publish the second and third Mann Reports in view of the extensive and, I fear, inspired leaks which appeared in Tribune and the Daily Express as long ago as August, 1968?
Secondly, is it not the case that there is a difference of at least 25 per cent. between the productivity of D.E.L. and that of private contractors?
Mr. Silkin: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the kind words that he used, although I am not sure that I need his commiseration. Indeed, perhaps I need his congratulations.
The answer to his first question is that I have gone quite deeply into the matter of the publication of the Mann Reports. I know of no leaks in which what was in those Reports has reached the general public, although I will certainly have the matter investigated. In any event, the idea of reporting as a result of leaks is a novel theory to me.
The answer to the hon. Gentleman's second question is, "No, Sir".
Mr. Ashton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that local authorities also have direct labour forces employed on maintenance work? Will he consider working in conjunction with those forces where co-operation of this kind is possible?
Mr. Silkin: As my hon. Friend has great experience of local authority work, I regard any suggestion that comes from him as both interesting and needing to be taken extremely seriously. I would like to go into his idea; and perhaps I might consider raising it with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government to ensure that his suggestion receives the consideration which it deserves.
Mr. Lubbock: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that my Liberal colleagues and I wish him all the best in his new job? We are happy to hear his voice, although we are sorry that he has not been able to continue in his former post, in which we enjoyed excellent relationships with him. Would—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Lubbock.
Mr. Lubbock: Will the right hon. Gentleman clarify—
Mr. Burden: On a point of order. Is it in order for the Leader of the Liberal Party, the right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe), to call Conservative hon. Members "mean bastards"?
Hon. Members: Shame. Withdraw.
Mr. Speaker: I did not hear the right hon. Gentleman make that remark.
Hon. Members: We did.
Mr. Speaker: I hope, if the right hon. Gentleman did use that expression, that he will withdraw it; although one of my predecessors in the Chair once ruled that the word was a term of endearment.
Mr. Lubbock: I was about to ask the right hon. Gentleman two questions.
Hon. Members: Withdraw.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I said that I hoped that the right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) would withdraw the remark.
Mr. Thorpe: If it may in any way be thought that I used the expression as a term of endearment towards the Conservative Party. I unequivocally withdraw it.
Hon. Members: Oh.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I take it that the right hon. Gentleman has literally, if not spiritually, withdrawn it.
Mr. Thorpe indicated assent.
Mr. Lubbock: Would the right hon. Gentleman, first, clarify whether or not he will publish the comparisons of cost between the D.E.L. and private contractors in the spheres of work to which he referred?
Secondly, what is the machinery by which he will consult the trade union movement concerning the mechanism of this change-over? Will the trade unions be brought into consultation on detailed matters and, if so, how will this be done?
Mr. Silkin: I appreciate the remarks of the hon. Gentleman about my new appointment, although I like to think that the good relations that I had extended to other parts of the House, too.
The answer to his first question is that I do not intend publication, certainly
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at this stage. Publication would not be opportune, in any event. The answer to his second question—he wondered how the trade unions would come into this—is that I propose that this should occur right down the line, from headquarters to each depot.
Mr. Arnold Shaw: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the majority of hon. Members on this side of the House will have every confidence in the D.E.L. provided, of course, that there is the right sort of management and that it always competes with contract labour? Has he any plans for improving the management of D.E.L., along with the possibility of expansion in this sphere?
Mr. Silkin: My hon. Friend will be relieved to hear that steps were taken as early as 1968 to introduce vast new training schemes for depot superintendents and other supervisors. We intend to go on with this on as large a scale as we can. In addition, we are, in the Bristol area, conducting a comprehensive management survey. This may take a little longer to achieve results, but we believe that it will be effective in creating efficient and stable management.
Mr. Costain: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that private contractors doing maintenance work pay S.E.T. and that this is a great imposition on the industry? Will he persuade his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to withdraw this tax?
Mr. Silkin: I do not think that that question arises out of my statement. In any event, my understanding is that we, too, pay S.E.T.
Mr. Judd: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his extremely clear statement, may I ask whether he is aware of the serious misgivings among his D.E.L. force about the hidden subsidies in private contracting, such as the use of the facilities and equipment of his Ministry by contractors and the problem of "labour only" sub-contracting, and the falling standard that is introduced thereby, in addition to the possibility of tax evasion and various other problems? Will he also bear in mind the problem of the possibility of the direct labour force being used to right inadequate workmanship by contractors?
Mr. Silkin: I said in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) that the cost comparisons would be as fair as I could possibly make them. I intend that that shall be so.
If the unions were to give me illustrations of contractors who were endeavouring to obtain our contracts through bad workmanship or bad labour conditions—I do not think that this would arise; I mention it lest it should—then that would, of course, be a very pertinent point to be borne in mind in the whole cost comparison question.
Earl of Dalkeith: While appreciating that running sewerage works must be a welcome change from running the Parliamentary Labour Party, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether his statement applies to Scotland, in view of the recent transfer of most of the functions of his Ministry to the Secretary of State for Scotland?
Mr. Silkin: Yes, Sir.
Mr. Tinn: Bearing in mind that there may be cases in which my right hon. Friend's Department, or sections of it, compare unfavourably with private contractors because in certain circumstances there is not sufficient scope for his operatives to be fully utilised in the public service, will he consider the possibility of contracting-out for private work so that the comparison may be as fair as he hopes to make it?
Mr. Silkin: That is an interesting question which, I suppose, is based on the proposition that if private contractors are more efficient in certain cases than is my direct labour force in others, my force should be more efficient than private contractors. If I were to consider my hon. Friend's suggestion—I assure him that it is worthy of consideration—I would need to get my D.E.L. into as efficient a form as possible. As that will not be so for some time, I do not think that his question arises immediately.
Mr. Chichester-Clark: Further to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Costain), is the right hon. Gentleman aware, unless I totally misheard his reply, that he was utterly wrong when he referred to the payment of S.E.T. by direct labour employees? If he was wrong, will
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he take an early opportunity to correct the matter in the House?
Mr. Silkin: As far as I understand it, no employee pays S.E.T., except as a self-employed person.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
Mr. Atkinson: On a point of order. I apologise for detaining the House, but I wish to raise what many regard as an important issue. It arises, Mr. Speaker, from your Ruling to myself earlier when I put a supplementary question to the Prime Minister in respect of Question Q1 on the Order Paper. You ruled me out of order and said that it was a matter of photographs and not of expenditure generally.
I would point out to you, with respect, that the two things are, in fact, related. The reason I asked my supplementary question was that I understand that the only occasion on which a Permanent Secretary can reject or challenge expenditure committed by a Minister is either on public relations work, to which this matter of photographs was related, or on private expenditure which could possibly be charged to Government sources. In those two circumstances a permanent official has a right to challenge such expenditure.
The supplementary question which I put to the Prime Minister concerned the whole question of the right of a permanent official to challenge policies laid down by a Minister. The point which I make is that in my respectful view the question was in order, and I seek your Ruling because I should like to put a further Question on the Order Paper to the Prime Minister concerning the right of a permanent official "to forbid"—in the words of the Secretary of State for Social Services—the transfer of or expenditure arising from any policy pursued by a Minister. This is an extremely important question, particularly for hon. Members in the whole Labour movement.
Mr. Speaker: I am not interested in the importance of the question. The hon. Member is quite right, if he thinks something is important, to put a Question on the Order Paper about it. I ruled, quite rightly and positively, that Question Q1 was
"to ask the Prime Minister how many presentation copies of his photograph he has given

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away officially at the public expense, in the last 12 months."
It is not in order, on a Question about photographs, to raise the whole matter of the relations of Permanent Secretaries to the Secretary of State for Social Services. The hon. Member must seek his own opportunity of doing that—but not on this Question.
Mr. Atkinson: Further to that point of order—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I have ruled on the matter.

ANIMAL BREEDING ESTABLISHMENTS
4.3 p.m.
Mr. Peter Bessell: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to control and license animal breeding establishments.
I wish to make it clear from the outset that my Bill does not seek to impede or restrict the activities of any persons engaged in the important task of properly controlled dog breeding. We have the right to be proud of our reputation for breeding some of the finest strains of pedigree dogs in the world and it is my belief that the contribution by the many thousands of legitimate and conscientious breeders throughout the country will be considerably strengthened if the House sees fit to put my Bill on the Statute Book.
The reason I am concerned about the control of breeding establishments is that a number of persons and organisations, including qualified veterinary surgeons and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, have drawn my attention to the appalling conditions in a few areas of the country where it seems that some people are prepared to breed dogs quite indiscriminately without any thought to the necessity for maintaining healthy and happy conditions for these unfortunate animals, and who are prepared to tolerate conditions which are often so insanitary that they are a menace to the health not only of dogs or cats but of other animals which may accidentally come into contact with these establishments.
Of the large number of breeding establishments in the British Isles, most are run on satisfactory lines. The animals are well housed and cared for and the premises are clean and hygienic. It is not the responsible dog breeder who needs to be licensed but the irresponsible breeder whose activities must be controlled.
I have had evidence of scores of these filthy, insanitary establishments, but I must confine myself to mentioning the details of only a few. I take one in the West of England, where an establishment was found by a veterinary surgeon to contain about 70 dogs and 40 cats. These

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were unattended at the time of his visit. No food or water was in evidence. Some of the dogs were locked in a disused truck. Others were in packing cases. The rest were penned up in insanitary conditions of one sort or another.
Secondly, in the Midlands an establishment has been reported to me where a great dane, several young spaniels and poodles were kept together in two small rooms littered with their excrement. Thirdly, nearer London, a large number of dogs of mixed breeds were found in a filthy outdoor shack, and the owner could not state how many animals were on the premises. Once again, conditions were appalling.
From West Wales, I have received evidence of premises where dogs are kept in conditions where rain and bad weather caused them to paddle around in mud and water, including their own urine and excrement.
In another case about 80 dogs were kept in a house inhabited by people, and the walls of the living rooms were seen to be wet with urine. A sort of tide-mark had developed at a level about 18 inches from the ground. The whole place reeked, and rotting remains of animal carcases, including a lamb, were found in the building, and it was from this relic that the dogs were being fed.
In an article which appeared in the Western Mail, Cardiff, on 10th January, 1969, headed "Pin-money from Puppies", the writer stated:
"Over the past five years or so the number of amateur dog breeders in Wales has increased enormously. As one of the most popular 'pin-money spinners' this craze has been taken up by farmers' wives and other country women."
The article went on:
"The initial outlay spent on one good pedigree hitch can be repaid four-fold by the first year's work."
Many other articles have appeared in reputable newspapers drawing attention to this increase in dog and cat breeding. I accept that in the majority of cases conditions are good, but this increasing trade inevitably attracts less responsible persons. My Bill would seek to permit any person to keep a breeding establishment provided that he obtained from the local authority a licence to do so. The fee for a licence would not exceed 10s. per annum and it would be granted to the person making application provided
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that the local authority were satisfied on a number of points.
I will outline them. First, that animals will at all times be kept in accommodation suitable as respects construction, size of quarters, number of occupants, exercising facilities, temperature, lighting, ventilation and cleanliness. Secondly, that animals will be adequately supplied with suitable food, drink and bedding material, adequately exercised and, as far as necessary, visited at suitable intervals. Thirdly, that all reasonable precautions will be taken to prevent and control the spread among animals of infectious or contagious diseases. Fourthly, that appropriate steps will be taken for the protection of the animals in case of fire or other emergency. The right of appeal would be provided for, as well as the right of transfer of the licence to the executors of the person to whom it is issued.
Under Clause 2, the local authority could authorise in writing any of its officers or any veterinary surgeon or veterinary practitioner to visit the premises in respect of which a licence has been granted for the purpose of ascertaining whether an offence has been committed under the terms under which the licence was granted.
Under Clause 3, any person found guilty of an offence would be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £50 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months.
Under Clause 5, I seek to define a breeding establishment as any place, including a private house, used for the business of breeding animals with a view to their being sold for profit and where more than four dogs or cats are kept for the specific purpose of breeding.
As a nation, we are justly proud of being sensitive to the needs of all domestic animals. We abominate any form of needless cruelty. Alas, there is a small minority willing and ready for the sake of profit to ignore these principles and to permit defenceless creatures to suffer. The spread of disease, the risk of diluting well-established strains and breeds of dogs and cats, and the demand by almost everyone to whom I have spoken about this matter for proper control of what has become an industry, is such that I am confident that the House will support me and permit me to introduce my Bill.

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If so, it is my earnest hope that even at this late stage in the Session the Government will allow the very brief amount of time which is necessary for the remaining stages, including a Second Reading debate.
I make no secret of the fact that I have based by Bill upon the Animal Boarding Establishments Act, 1963, Except for a few minor changes, it is virtually a carbon copy of that Act, the effect being to bring under the control of local authorities the establishments where dogs are bred in the same way as those in which they are boarded.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Peter Bessell, Sir Frederic Bennett, Mr. Richard Body, Mr. Burden, Mrs. Joyce Butler, Mr. Eric Lubbock, Mr. John Pardoe, Sir Ronald Russell, and Dr. Shirley Summerskill.

ANIMAL BREEDING ESTABLISHMENTS
  ANIMAL BREEDING ESTABLISHMENTS
  Bill to control and license animal breeding establishments, presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday, 27th June, and to be printed. [Bill 165.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY
  FINANCE BILL

    (Clauses 7, 8, 36, 38, 43 and 44, and Schedule 6)
    Considered in Committee (Progress, 14th May].
    [Mr. SYDNEY IRVING in the Chair]

    Clause 43

      SELECTIVE EMPLOYMENT TAX
      Question proposed, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
      4.12 p.m.
      Mr. Terence L. Higgins: I oppose Clause 43. Perhaps that is just as well as there was no Treasury Minister present when it became necessary for me to rise. I am glad to see that the Chancellor is now in his place.
      The Clause we are to debate this afternoon seeks to increase the rate of selective employment tax yet again on top of an increase made last year to the initial rate which was imposd in 1966. Whereas the initial rate in 1966 was 25s. for a male worker whole time employed, it was raised. to 37s. 6d. last year, and now it is proposed in this Clause to raise it yet again to 48s., the whole of these increases being matched by corresponding increases at the lower rate.
      It is very difficult to avoid the impression that the Government have become addicted to increases in selective employment tax and to the tax itself. That is certainly not an addiction shared by hon. Members on this side of the Committee, nor, indeed, by many hon. Members opposite, because the Government's majority on the Budget Resolution relating to this matter fell to 28. The addiction does not extend to the country as a whole. I believe that this tax is the most disliked tax which it has been the misfortune of the country to suffer since Pitt's window tax. On two occasions since the Budget the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has extolled the virtue of this tax. I will deal with the arguments he advanced.

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      It is worth making a preliminary point because in the debate on the Budget the Chief Secretary put forward what one might call "Diamond's approach to taxation" when he suggested that most taxes are generally introduced in and followed by a general pattern of acceptability. The first announcement is greeted with interest followed by a period of complete bewilderment and then a period of mounting opposition with a long and bitter campaign against the tax. Finally, he suggested, there is a period of grumbling acquiescence.
      There is no doubt that the Minister was right in accepting that there is no question of the country yet degenerating into a period of grumbling acquiescence over selective employment tax. It is far more likely that the shape of this tax and its career will be that of the Pitt window tax and that opposition will continue to mount to it. It will continue only until such time as a Conservative Government are returned and have the opportunity of abolishing both the tax and the increases imposed on the country.
      A particular point which should be made in this connection because the representations made this year have been, if anything, heavier than in any previous year since the tax was introduced, is that often in the country people are not familiar with our proceedings. They are puzzled why Amendments are not debated and why some are tabled in a rather strange form. It is right to point out that the Government have successively tended to draw the Money Resolution regarding this tax tighter and tighter. This has made it more and more difficult to put Amendments which are in order.
      As will be appreciated, we are debating this part of the question of selective employment tax on the Question, That the Clause stand part of the Bill. We have a number of Amendments which have been selected to be considered when we discuss the following Clause, which is concerned with selective employment tax refunds or premiums. This is very difficult and it is worth while pointing out to the many who have made representations about the tax.
      We now find ourselves in a quite extraordinary position where the Chancellor of the Exchequer has set up an investigation into the operation of the tax and has asked Professor Reddaway to
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      carry out that investigation. Yet, without waiting for Professor Reddaway's views on this subject, the Chancellor proposes to increase the tax by this Clause. It is strange that the Chancellor does not think that he should have obtained an interim report before taking any action. In some ways it is stranger still that Professor Reddaway feels that he can continue, although his views will not be taken into account about this considerable increase. There seems some case for having the Department of Economic Affairs on one side of the river exchanging ideas with King's College, Cambridge, and Dr. Kaldor, on the other, but to bring in this increase without consulting Professor Reddaway is quite extraordinary.
      I want to deal with the arguments put forward by the Chief Secretary in favour of this tax, although the Chancellor is himself to reply to this debate. The Chief Secretary has distinguished five arguments in favour of the tax, three of which he put forward in his speech on the Budget and two in his speech on Second Reading of this Bill. I shall discuss them and rank them in what I might describe as order of invalidity.
      The Chief Secretary's first argument was that it was necessary to broaden the tax base by including services. It certainly does broaden the tax base, but our contention is that it does so in an absurdly discriminatory way, partly because of the initial false basis of Professor Kaldor's conception, and, secondly, because when first introduced it was introduced as an administrative convenience using the Ministry of Labour to collect because the tax imposed by the Chancellor's predecessor could not be dealt with adequately by the Inland Revenue.
      Despite the contentions at that time that the tax would be refined, and so on, it is an absurdly discriminatory tax, born out of expediency, and has been encouraged and increased as a result of the second reason which the Chief Secretary put forward, which is that it raises revenue. Perhaps one of the few things one can say with certainty about the tax is that it does, in fact, raise revenue, but it is not merely a question of raising revenue that the Chancellor should be concerned about. His prime objective, he has told us again and again, is to get

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      the balance of payments right. Yet this tax, whether by raising industrial costs to manufacturers or falling heavily on invisible exports, goes quite contrary to the overall objective which the Chancellor himself declared is the prime objective of Government policy.
      The third reason which the Chief Secretary advances is that this tax is cheap to collect—one-third the cost of collecting other taxes, he tells us. As appeared clearly from the debate on Second Reading, this is done through the mechanism of collecting a large amount of money and then dispersing much of it back to those who originally paid it. Thus, there is an interest-free loan imposed on those who originally pay the tax and who eventually receive the refund.
      Interest-free loans have become very fashionable with this Government, not only on the selective employment tax, but also on the import deposit scheme. It is not surprising that a Government whose credit has been reduced to the level to which this Government's credit has been reduced should find the idea of an interest-free loan attractive. None the less, this is a point which should be borne in mind when considering the cost of collection. On Second Reading, the Chief Secretary put forward the extraordinary view that this interest-free loan had been taken into account and that, if the Government had not taken it into account, the tax would have been imposed at an even higher rate. That is a very strange doctrine, because we are not clear why all taxes are not collected on this basis if the Chief Secretary believes that to be a valid argument.
      I come to the Chief Secretary's two remaining points, it is on these that I shall concentrate this afternoon. The first is that the S.E.T. does not increase the cost of living as much as other taxes. The second contention is that it encourages economies in the use of labour and makes more available for manufacturing. I want to deal very carefully with the cost of living question, because it is one which the Chancellor and the Chief Secretary have emphasised to a very considerable extent.
      The Chief Secretary says that it would put up the cost of living by only one-third as much as would a corresponding yield in the case of purchase tax. This
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      is a very strange argument indeed. It is worth going into it in some detail, because in his speech on Second Reading the Chief Secretary appears to have been thinking up new arguments to justify the tax. In columns 304–5 of the OFFICIAL REPORT of 6th May the Chief Secretary became involved in a most convoluted argument seeking to suggest that the economic analysis of a tax on services was somehow totally different from the economic analysis of a tax on manufacturing industry. He ended with this rather splendid peroration to this part of his speech:
      "Both economic theory and accountancy experience march hand in hand here with the experience of the tax."
      I would like the Chancellor to tell me just one thing when he replies. The Chief Secretary appeals to "economic theory". Can the Chancellor tell me what economic theory makes the distinction which the Chief Secretary makes? Could he tell me whether it is in Samuelson's economics, for example, in Stonier and Hague's textbook on economics, perhaps in Professor Cairncross's textbook on economics—he was the former Treasury Economic Adviser—perhaps in Benham, which is rather more in the time span of the Chief Secretary? What textbook is it in? If it is not in these, in what special studies by M.I.T., or the Cowles Foundation, or the Rand Foundation, or Brookings Institution, can he find this extraordinary argument, which ran as follows?
      I quote again from the Chief Secretary's speech:
      "… I remind the House that a manufacturing industry fixes its prices by reference to its prime costs—labour and materials, adding a percentage for overheads …
      … if there is an increase in prime costs the manufacturer immediately adjusts his selling price. If there is an increase in overheads, such as rates, which are a form of local tax as opposed to a national tax, he does not increase his price straightaway …
      In a service industry such as distribution the prime cost is only the article that is bought in the first place. The whole of the labour cost of an employer in a service industry is an overhead."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th May, 1969; Vol. 783, c. 304–51.]
      This is absolute nonsense. In fact, the whole of the labour cost in a service industry is a prime cost, because it is directly related to the amount of work which is actually undertaken. It is not

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      an overhead in this sense. It is completely nonsensical for the Chief Secretary to draw spurious distinctions of this kind, which, I suggest to him, are certainly not to be found in economic theory and which, indeed, are quite contrary to accounting experience, unless he wants his clients to go bankrupt.
      There may be an alternative view. That is concerned with the point which the Chancellor at Question Time today finally introduced—the concept of an estimate of the elasticity of demand. I was glad to hear the Chancellor say that this afternoon. The fact of the matter is that, if anything, the elasticity of demand for services is probably greater than that for manufacturing industry, rather than the other way about as the Chancellor suggested this afternoon. If it is really the case that S.E.T. increases prices by only one-third as compared with purchase tax, where do the other two-thirds come from?
      The Committee may well ponder this question, because the Economist got involved in the same problem. It may merely come out of productivity. Is this really the case? Does the Chancellor think that it will come out of productivity? The fact is that it cannot come out that much. The crucial question is, not how much does the Chancellor think that prices will rise, but how much will the tax be passed on?
      What the Chancellor has done is to engage in a very clever sleight of hand. To bring this point out, I want to quote a passage from his television broadcast after his Budget:
      "This left me with the need for rather over a £100 million more to raise. I decided to get it where it would be cheapest on the cost of living. That meant the selective employment tax. To have got it from other indirect taxes would have raised the retail price index by nearly three times as much."
      The fact is that, although it is true that the impact of the S.E.T. on the retail price index is only about one-third, it is not at all true that only one-third is passed on, because the tax is in fact levied on a very large number of parts of the economy which do not enter into the retail price index. Therefore, the Chancellor is engaging in a very rapid sleight of hand.
      I ask him to state clearly this afternoon, first, not merely what would be the
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      effect on the retail price index, but what he believes the effect is on prices as a whole, and, secondly, what percentage of the tax he believes is passed on on the basis of the estimates which he has made about the elasticity of demand, because I believe that the argument about the selective employment tax not being inflationary is in fact a wholly false one.
      I want, finally, on the question of the arguments advanced by the Chief Secretary, to turn to the question of economy in the use of labour. It was the original contention that the amount of labour which would be available for manufacturing industry and for increasing exports would be increased by the operation of the selective employment tax. It has not worked out this way, because in practice what has happened is that unemployment has risen very fast and, although some labour may have been shaken out of service industries, a great deal of it has not been shaken into manufacturing, partly because of the rise in unemployment and partly because many of the industries and the people worse hit by S.E.T. have been part-time workers or elderly workers who have not been able to find occupations to which they could move. Whereas previously they had reasonable jobs, perhaps in their old age or retirement they have left the labour force altogether.
      The second point is that the S.E.T. is a very regressive tax indeed. Therefore, we have found that it has hit worst at the lowest-paid workers who, hon. Gentlemen opposite are constantly telling us, should be given a great deal of consideration. What has happened is that the lowest paid, least skilled workers have been driven out of occupation by the S.E.T. and their opportunities have been diminished. There has not been a corresponding retraining to enable them to go into more skilled jobs.
      The whole basis of Professor Kaldor's argument is wrong, because he argued originally that there would be a movement into industries where productivity was rising and where economies of scale were greater. Yet if we look at the Chief Secretary's own point of view, as expressed in his Second Reading speech we see that he points out that it is in the service industries very often, and not where Professor Kaldor expected them, that productivity has been going up.

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      I should now like to point out the very strong arguments against this tax which we on this side of the Committee have continually put forward. I think they were summarised very well indeed in an article in the Economist of 19th April, 1969. First of all, it points out that this tax is uniquely unfortunate in that it inhibits exports and, unlike a value-added tax or purchase tax which is not charged on exports, it cannot be rebated so far as this country's exports are concerned. So this tax is directly opposed to the object of increasing exports because, unlike a value-added tax and purchase tax, it has an adverse effect on the prices of exports.
      4.30 p.m.
      Mr. F. A. Burden: As an illustration of his remark, does my hon. Friend agree that foreign countries' buying houses situated in this country purely to buy goods for export are subjected to this tax and that they resent it tremendously?
      Mr. Higgins: Yes, I am aware of that. I hope we shall return to the point in greater detail in later debates when, no doubt, my hon. Friend will wish to speak.
      It certainly is the case that exports are adversely affected in the way in which I was stating. Secondly, the whole incidence and timing of this tax is uncertain compared with other taxes. Thirdly, this tax, unlike most taxes which increase in yield as the gross national product goes up in money terms, or decrease in yield if the gross national product were to fall, does not move in this way. Therefore, instead of putting a built-in stabiliser into the economy, evening out fluctuations, this tax has no such stabilising effect and is far less favourable than many of the others which could have been imposed in its place.
      Above all, this tax is arbitrary. It is arbitrary in its incidence. It divides one part of the country from another; it divides one part of a development area from another; it divides construction from manufacturing; it divides almost any particular aspect of our economic life in a purely arbitrary way, dependent on the construction of the actual index which is used to classify the various industries.
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      Therefore, I hope that the Committee will vote against this Clause which seeks to increase this tax.
      I do not think that it is necessary to go into the question of the revenue which it raises because we have no idea at all what is the Chancellor's Budget judgment. Following the fiasco on the whole question of the pensions increase and the way in which it has been financed, we have an enormous range within which the Chancellor's Budget judgment—if it ever existed—now exists. We are, therefore, right to attack a tax which, if anything, will have an adverse effect on the balance of payments.
      One thing is absolutely clear. It is not that devaluation has failed so much as that it was half strangled at birth by the Government's actions and has been consistently kicked to death by their actions ever since. The danger now is that the Government pile deflation after deflation upon a devaluation which has failed. The Government themselves failed to make it work not only because they had procrastinated at the time of devaluation, but also because nearly everything they have done since has tended to operate against the effective way in which exports might have been stimulated by that devaluation.
      The fact is that we are suffering from consistency and inconsistency amongst Ministers. The Chief Secretary is consistently in favour of this tax, and the Secretary of State for Social Services is inconsistent about almost everything. Indeed, some of his statements lately remind one of Mark Twain's description of the weather in Connecticut, namely, "If you do not like it, wait a minute." The statements of the Secretary of State vary almost from moment to moment. But about one thing he was right last Thursday. He said, with regard to the imposition of the pensions increase:
      "To put it crudely, if we put the increase on the employer we put it on the cost of goods, and it would not help us now to overload him."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th May, 1969; Vol. 783, c. 1742.]
      Yet this is a further imposition upon industry. It is particularly adverse on our exports and it is certainly adverse on our invisibles. It is discriminatory and it ought to be abolished at the earliest possible moment. An increase in this tax is quite absurd, and I hope that the Committee will unite to defeat the Clause.
      Sir Dingle Foot: I rarely trouble the Committee on a Finance Bill and I do not propose to do so on this occasion for more than a few minutes. I am, however, one of a considerable body of hon. Members on this side who have great misgivings about this tax. We think that it was ill-considered at the outset and that it has proved extremely unjust in its operation.
      I appreciate that this tax is regarded with great favour by the Treasury, though that is not necessarily a reason why it should commend itself to the Committee. I have thought for many years, both in and out of office, that one of the main defects in our present system of government is excessive Treasury control. I am not making any personal attack on my right hon. Friend the present Chancellor, or on any of the Finance Ministers, for whom I have the highest regard. I am mentioning them simply as figures.
      Under our system, the Chancellor is really all-powerful. When he has to introduce his Budget he goes to the Cabinet and tells his colleagues the details of the Budget a day or perhaps two days before. There is consultation in form, but, in effect, it is really a Treasury diktat. The Cabinet has to take it as it stands. We had an example of Treasury control last week, when we had the debate on betterment levy. In the debate there were demands from both sides of the House for retrospection in favour of the citizen. The arguments in that debate were overwhelmingly one way, but the Treasury point of view had to be defended by the Minister for Planning and Land. My heart bled for him as I listened to the debate. He was left with no really plausible argument whatever, but only with a Treasury brief, and not a very convincing one at that.
      I want to deal with this tax which, no doubt, commends itself to the Treasury. All taxation is inevitably unpopular, but hon. Members on both sides of the Committee will agree from their experience in their own constituencies that we have never known a tax which has been quite so generally unpopular and so capricious in its operation. It has certain virtues from the Treasury point of view. It is difficult to evade, and it is easy and cheap to collect. That would
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      apply to a good many other taxes recorded in history.
      I take, for example, the most famous taxation measure of all, the one which is recorded in the first three verses of Chapter Two of the Gospel according to St. Luke:
      "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
      And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria."
      I suppose Cyrenius was the Jim Callaghan of his day.
      It continues:
      "And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city."
      I have always thought that that must have involved an extraordinary degree of expense and inconvenience for all the taxpayers concerned. As we know, at the end of the journey some of them could not even find adequate accommodation. But it was a perfect tax from the point of view of the Roman Treasury. It was easy and cheap to collect and difficult to evade.
      There have been many other examples. Another tax which had the same virtues from the Treasury point of view was the poll tax in 1380, which led to the Peasants' Revolt, one of the great popular uprisings in our history. It had the most unfortunate and unpleasant consequences, but it was a perfectly good tax from the Treasury point of view.
      The window tax was imposed for a very long time. It was cheap and easy to collect, but nobody would propose introducing it again.
      An Hon. Member: There is plenty of time.
      Sir Dingle Foot: A more recent example which I particularly recall, and in which I confess an interest because for a time I was professionally engaged as an adviser to those who were agitating against the tax, was the entertainment tax on the living theatre. It was introduced as a wartime measure in, I think, 1917. It continued as a permanent feature of our taxation system until the middle 1950s, and it had considerable consequences.
      I deeply regret the decline of the living theatre up and down the country, and I have no doubt that one of the reasons

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      for that decline was the entertainment tax on the living theatre. But it was a convenient tax; it was easy to collect, and so it continued in operation for nearly 40 years, quite regardless of the social consequences.
      I have studied with care the defence which my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary put forward the other day, when he said in effect, comparing the selective employment tax with purchase tax, that it could not always be passed on. As we know, some people can pass it on, but his point was that others could not. He said:
      "Purchase tax, by comparison, is passed on in full to the consumer and, indeed, the consumer accepts that it should be passed on in full. Increases in purchase tax, therefore, do not represent anything like the same problem to the distributor as S.E.T. which, by virtue of its selectivity in the field in which it operates, often cannot be wholly passed on. Competition does not permit it, nor does public acceptance. The shopkeeper finds himself in the painful position of having a portion of the burden remaining on his own shoulders and, being in pain, he cries out. He finds himself compelled to take steps to absorb part of the tax in additional efficiency and, to do him justice, he has succeeded in doing so."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st April, 1969; Vol. 782, c. 48–49.]
      That is just playing with words.
      Let us consider the position of the shopkeeper, particularly the small shopkeeper. It may be that he has one or two assistants, and he is dependent on the volume of trade in his area. What can he do to make any marked difference to his efficiency? What can he do to raise productivity? It may very well be that he has already reached the maximum of efficiency. But he has to pay the tax and he cannot pass it on to the consumer, because he has to compete with the multiple store, the co-operative store, and so on. So far from what my right hon. Friend said being a recommendation of the tax, it is a condemnation of it, because this means that some people can pass the tax on to the consumer whereas others cannot, and in that lies the essential injustice of this form of taxation.
      I was one of those who abstained when the matter came up on the Budget Resolutions. I always regret having to differ from the Government, particularly on a Finance Bill. But I think that I speak for some of my hon. Friends as well as myself when I ask for a further assurance
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      on the matter from my right hon. Friend the Chancellor with reference to the Reddaway Committee.
      I remind him that on Second Reading of the Finance Bill last year said:
      "That does not mean that I regard the tax as it stands as perfect or immutable. As I told a group of my hon. Friends representing the Co-operative movement who came to see me the other day and argued a case with great force, I shall approach Mr. Reddaway's Report, which I hope to receive during next year,"—
      he did not say whether that was 12 months from 24th April last year or the whole of 1969—
      "with an open mind and great readiness to listen to any constructive criticisms and suggestions which may come from his inquiry."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th April, 1968; Vol. 763, c. 254.]
      I ask my right hon. Friend for a further assurance today. Has he still an open mind to consider the recommendations of the Reddaway Committee when they are made? Will he then consider the whole incidence of the tax and abolish it or at any rate reform it in the next Finance Bill?
      4.45 p.m.
      Sir Gerald Nabarro: I am pleased to follow the right hon. and learned Member for Ipswich (Sir Dingle Foot). His speech was very acceptable to me, though I shall proceed on rather different lines. I shall not quarrel with him in trying to assess the inflationary effect or otherwise of the selective employment tax in terms of retail prices. I aver that the whole of the selective employment tax goes on to retail prices, plus a premium per centum added at the various stages of distribution.
      In opening the debate my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) might have quoted the extraordinary increase in the yield of the tax, because that is the measure of the inflation of retail prices which has occurred, notably since devaluation of sterling. I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me if I give those figures to the Committee, as published by the Conservative Central Office. They are, therefore, absolutely correct. They are not exaggerated—the Chancellor's favourite word—in any way.
      For the financial year 1966–67, when the tax was introduced, the yield was £258 million; in 1968–69 it was £438 million; in 1969, £606 million; and in the full year measured from 7th July,

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      1969, £613 million. That suggests to me that there is an increase of £355 million in the revenue yield of the tax in a brief period of three years.
      My case is that the whole of the £613 million goes on to retail prices. I believe that to be incontrovertible. There is also an additional premium inevitably added at each stage of distribution at which the selective employment tax is levied. There is no better example of what happens with increases in indirect taxation than the behaviour of the Kitchen Committee in the House of Commons over the 1s. 1d. a bottle increase on wines. It was not 1s. 1d. a bottle on the tariff that was brought to me.
      This is an analogy with the situation I am describing; it is exactly what happens. The tendency is that the shopkeeper, faced with the payment of this heavy additional impost, adds not only the aggregation of his selective employment tax measured over a year to his turnover and divides it up in the retail prices of his goods, but adds a per centum as well—not in every case, but in the majority of cases.
      I want to take issue with the Chancellor at once, not on what he said last year or the year before but on what he said in his Budget Statement this year. My hon. Friend and the right hon. and learned Gentleman have alluded to the unfortunate comparison made by the Chancellor between the effect of S.E.T. and the effect of purchase tax. I challenge the Chancellor to publish in appropriate form, and put in the Library of the House and in the OFFICIAL REPORT, the statistical justification for these words, which he used on 15th April:
      "The effect of this increase upon the retail price index will be about one-third of that of raising an equivalent amount of revenue from Purchase Tax or the other excise duties."[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th April, 1969; Vol. 781, c. 1029.]
      I tell the right hon. Gentleman plainly and simply that I do not believe it. I do not believe his advisers. I do not believe that there is any statistical justification for that statement. I think that that is a complete red herring. I believe—my fiscal philosophy dictates, if the right hon. Gentleman prefers it that way—that the whole of purchase tax and the whole of S.E.T. are added immediately to the prices of goods in the shops.
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      Did the right hon. Gentleman really believe that, when he put 13¾ per cent. purchase tax on bed linen, blankets and towels, which have never been purchase taxed before, shopkeepers would absorb it? On the contrary, it is reported in the national Press today that there is a rush to buy pre-Budget goods in these categories before the goods carrying this purchase tax are offered over the counters. The fact is that every shopkeeper will add the net amount of purchase tax plus, no doubt, a per centum for himself, to the former retail prices of the goods. I aver that precisely the same principle occurs with S.E.T. and that it is highly inflationary. As in the case of my speech on Second Reading and on earlier Amendments, I am delighted to have my right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) seated at my elbow.
      Mr. Eric S. Heffer: I am not sure that he is.
      Sir G. Nabarro: My right hon. Friend is listening intently, as always. There is nothing evasive about what I am saying. It is unequivocal and forthright, as always. I am sorry that the Chancellor snorts. These are not qualities that he is associated with.
      What I want done by my party is the total abolition of all purchase tax and of S.E.T. and the substitution of a value added tax in place of these two forms of taxation. Value-added tax is far less inflationary and far less inequitable and unfair than purchase tax and S.E.T. in their present forms.
      I want to pass for a moment to the universal abhorrence of this form of taxation among the general public and notably among the retail and distributive trades. At the onset of this Parliament, 24 candidates offered themselves for election as Labour and Co-operative Members and 18 were elected. I believe that one or two have dropped by the wayside since, but I have not been able to establish that from the record. But there were 18 successful Co-operative candidates on 31st March, 1966.
      The whole Co-operative movement is pledged to the abolition of this form of taxation. Every Co-operative Member opposite has instructions from the Cooperative movement to oppose the increase in S.E.T. The hon. and learned

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      Member for Warrington (Mr. W. T. Williams) is listening intently to me and will, of course, go into the Lobby against the tax and in support of the Conservative Party this afternoon.
      I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) is not here. He invited the co-operatives to join the Liberal Party. There is, of course, not a single Liberal Member here. The Liberal Party outside this House is all blather and the right hon. Member for Devon, North is the blatherskite himself. He calls on the co-operatives to join the Liberal Party to vote against S.E.T., but there is not a single Liberal Member in his place to listen to my words this afternoon. Of course, the co-operatives have rejected the Liberal call but the co-operatives this afternoon, notably the hon. and learned Member for Warrington, who is a man of integrity, honesty and political perspicacity, should be trotting through the Lobby with me.
      Mr. Tony Gardner: Will the hon. Gentleman, to be fair, also recall that the Co-operative movement is equally opposed to the Official Opposition alternative of a tax on value added?
      Sir G. Nabarro: Of course, the co-operatives believe in no taxation at all, but they would indeed prefer a value added tax to the inequitable effects of S.E.T.
      I want to apply myself to two aspects of this increased taxation in Clause 43. The first is the objections put to the Treasury by the laundry and cleaning industry which opposed particularly the savage increase in S.E.T. which the Chancellor is proposing. It wrote to me on 13th May:
      "Laundry and dry cleaning are industrial processes and much more allied in their methods and requirements to manufacturing industry than to commerce."
      Laundry and dry cleaning are just one example. Building houses and civil engineering construction are perhaps another. Private fee-paying schools and educational establishments outside the State system are perhaps another.
      All of them are my method of underlining what the right hon. and learned Member for Ipswich rightly referred to—the injustice of this taxation in its present
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      form. The reply to the launderers and dry cleaners, sent in the Chancellor's name on 29th April, was by a Treasury official signing himself, "C. D. Butler, Private Secretary". He said:
      "No Government likes to increase taxation."
      Lieut.-Colonel Sir Walter Bromley-Davenport: Ha, ha!
      Sir G. Nabarro: I am glad to note the mirth of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Knutsford (Sir W. Bromley-Davenport).
      The Chancellor takes a savage and almost masochistic pleasure in increasing taxation because he believes, wholly wrongly, that, by doing so, he helps the balance of payments. I wonder if anyone else in this Committee supports the view that, by putting S.E.T. on launderers and cleaners, he helps our balance of payments. It is drivelling rot and is seen to be drivelling rot by the entire nation. Yet this kind of assertion is trotted out by the Treasury officials in the Chancellor's name. Here it is:
      "No Government likes to increase taxation. But it is necessary to raise a substantial amount of additional revenue this year in order to achieve our balance of payments objectives."
      5.0 p.m.
      I do not believe the Chancellor. All that he has done by increasing purchase tax and S.E.T. is to hasten the inflation, manifest by an increase of approximately 7 per cent. in the retail price index during 1968, immediately following devaluation—and the rate of inflation which will be quickened this year. Most largely it will be caused by the deliberate increase in the cost of living promoted by the Chancellor's Budget. The spate of wage claims today, the rush of strikes, unofficial and official in all parts of the country, the mammoth number of days lost last year in industry, should all be laid at the door of the guilty person—the Chancellor, who believes that he gets more exports by increasing the cost of living here.
      I believe exactly the opposite, that if he increases the cost of living here he causes more and more wage demands. Is there any greater manifestation of this that this morning's news? The most utterly respectable body of men and women in the country, the professional civil servants, is clamouring—I said "utterly respectable" and the Chancellor

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      grins. Does he not accept my assessment of them? He was not grinning at me? [HON. MEMBERS: "He was."] I do not think that he was, but whether or not he was he should treat the civil servants' claim with the seriousness it deserves.
      The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Roy Jenkins)indicated assent.
      Sir G. Nabarro: I am glad to see the right hon. Gentleman nodding assent.
      The civil servants would not be blowing off in public like this about inflation and the need for substantial increases in their pay unless we had this underlying inflation caused by the Chancellor, the principal promotion of which is S.E.T. and purchase tax.
      I now say a word on behalf of a section of education, which pays S.E.T. very heavily. There are rising 500,000 pupils in private fee-paying schools in Britain. I leave out direct aid grammar schools. These fee-paying schools raise from public schools to preparatory school to Froebels and nursery schools. There are thousands of fee-paying schools, all with teaching staffs, all with administrative staffs, all with domestic staffs and all subject to S.E.T. None of the staffs of State education establishments is subject to S.E.T.
      Mr. Heffer: Hear, hear.
      Sir G. Nabarro: Immediately the Labour Party bursts into a cacophony, because it does not like private fee-paying education. But I do.
      Mr. Heffer: Well, look at you.
      Sir G. Nabarro: It is all very well for the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) to point the finger of scorn at me. I will give him the quotation and he can go away and look it up. The Workers' Educational Association, a body that he strongly supports—
      Mr. Cyril Bence: Hear, hear.
      Sir G. Nabarro: I am glad to hear that the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence) supports it, too.
      The Workers' Educational Association submitted its evidence to the Newsom Committee on the same day as I was privileged to submit evidence, as Chairman, on behalf of the National Consultative
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      Committee for Independent Education on behalf of the fee-paying schools. The Workers' Educational Association said, "We may as well put up with fee-paying education. It would be impossible to abolish it. There would be no room in the State schools to take in another half-a-million pupils, if we tried to abolish fee paying tomorrow."
      If S.E.T. is not applicable to a State educational establishment I say to the Chancellor why should it be applicable to a private fee-paying establishment, be it Winchester, Eton, or Harrow—[Interruption.] I said "Eton" in case the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) did not hear me.
      Mr. Reginald Paget: Or Borstal?
      Sir G. Nabarro: That is where the hon. and learned Gentleman displays his ignorance of these matters. S.E.T. is not applicable to borstal establishments, but it is applicable to Eton.
      What the hon. and learned Gentleman prefers is for his old school, Eton—he is hardly the epitome of the Labour Party as one of the old Etonians opposite—to pay S.E.T. He likes his old school to pay it but considers that borstal should not, and it does not.
      I say that no school staffs in the country should pay S.E.T., be they in private or be they State schools. They will particularly suffer as the result of the increase, in Clause 43, of S.E.T. I hope, therefore, that the Chancellor will give consideration between now and Report to bringing in an Amendment to exclude the staffs of private fee-paying schools—
      The Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman is now impinging upon Clause 44, which is out of order.
      Sir G. Nabarro: I will immediately return to my main theme. I trust that my hon. and right hon. Friends will join this evening, with the Liberal Party—I am now glad to see a single representative of their party here—I hope that the whole of the Tory Party sustained by the Liberal Party and by the Co-operative Members, all 18 of them, will vote against the Government this evening and that the right hon. and learned Member for Ipswich, who has displayed great courage and fortitude in these S.E.T.

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      matters, will not this evening only go to the halfway house of abstaining.
      On the contrary, his abhorrence of this form of taxation is as great as my own and he should have the courage, with the other legal luminaries seated opposite—the hon. and learned Member for Warrington and the hon. and learned Member for Northampton, to vote against Clause 43 because of the dreadfully inflationary effects of S.E.T. in our economy and the evil influence it has on all our determined and patriotic efforts to increase the nation's export performance.
      Mr. Laurence Pavitt: One of the difficulties about the performance of the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) for me at least, was that he seemed as much interested in performing to his hon. and right hon. Friends behind him as he did to the Committee, with the result that I got the impression from time to time that he was talking out of the back of his neck. There were parts of his speech, when, in his usual fruity manner, he was able to attract my attention. As I am one of those whom he was tempting, with those dulcet tones of his, to follow him into the Opposition Lobby this evening, I listened with great care to what he said.
      I should like to assure him that there would need to be a much greater temptation to sway me from the paths of righteousness than that which he has put before me. I speak as a Co-operative Member. I understand that when one declares an interest there should be a pecuniary interest involved. I am not quite certain about "pecuniary". I have spoken in the debates on this tax and I speak again tonight from the point of view of the consumers, and those trying to give a service in distribution. This tax, and this Clause, are particularly concerned to impose further penalties upon those sectors of the community.
      The hon. Member for Worcestershire, South referred to a yield of £613 million. I could not agree that all this has been added to retail prices. In 1966 and 1967 it was possible to absorb a certain amount of the tax, but the limit was reached long ago. One cannot continue to absorb increases. My great regret is that the main criterion of efficiency which has been adopted is the very short-term
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      criterion of profitability. If that were the only criterion, it would be possible to speak in favour of selective employment tax. But it is not possible to have profitability in areas in which one seeks to give a service. This is very much a metropolitan tax. We look at it through London eyes. We tend to forget the rural areas where it is not possible to continue to absorb the tax by self-service methods which exist in large departmental or self-service stores or supermarkets in the centre of urban areas. Service must be given to the whole community and not merely to those who live in towns.
      The hon. Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) referred to selective employment tax as the most disliked tax. Other hon. Members have spoken of their abhorence of it. I dislike it. But I do not think that it is as disliked as all that; I wish it were. One of the changes which I have seen during my brief time as a Member is in the attitude towards taxation: that the tax which we see we dislike and the tax which we do not see is acceptable. I reject that philosophy entirely. If a person is taxed according to his means, it is possible to be equitable. But the unfairness of selective employment tax is that it spreads right across the board. This is one of the reasons why I have hoped, and will continue to hope, that some other form of taxation would be found which was more equitably distributed and fairer, especially for the consumer.
      This is a housewives' tax. In the last analysis, the housewife pays. It seems that we are always prepared to let the housewife absorb greater burdens because she cannot exert the pressure and influence which perhaps other sectors of the community can bring to bear.
      The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Budget speech, said that, having considered all the possibilities, he preferred to increase selective employment tax rather than purchase tax. Much as I dislike any tax on essential goods and services, at least purchase tax has the merit of being discriminatory. The differential rates of purchase tax make it possible to make a social judgment that perhaps a mink coat is more worthy of being taxed than bread, butter, milk and sugar. However, selective employment

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      tax makes no such discrimination. This is the first time in history that an indirect tax directly affects food prices. The fact that the selective employment tax has been increased this year only aggravates the disappointment of many of my colleagues and myself.
      My argument against the tax concerns its failure to be selective. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ipswich (Sir Dingle Foot) quoted from the Chancellor's Budget Statement last year in which he talked about his open mind and the fact that the Reddaway inquiry would be reporting. It would appear, however, that between then and now his mind closed. I have had the privilege of looking at a questionnaire prepared by Professor Reddaway in which retail distributors were asked to give statistics which would enable him to come to a decision. The terms of reference of the Reddaway inquiry were so narrow that it is entirely irrelevant to the wide philosophical basis on which the tax is drawn. Because my right hon. Friend the Chancellor knows that it is irrelevant, he has not waited for the report before increasing the tax.
      To me it is nonsense that at a time when we are desperately trying to hold down prices Government action should cause them to rise. This is politically inept because whenever prices are increased people can say, "It is the Government again—and it is your Government who have done it".
      Sir G. Nabarro: Hear, hear.
      5.15 p.m.
      Mr. Pavitt: But, as the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South knows, that is not so. I have always contended that if we are to hold wages, salaries and incomes we must start with prices. If we cannot hold prices, whatever our intentions, we shall never be able to hold wages and salaries. On that score, the tax is wrong.
      I have seen no figures to justify the second contention of the hon. Member for Worthing about the possible transference of labour. For years retailing has relied upon part-time female labour. If one cannot get such labour, one closes unprofitable units and fails to give a service. That labour is not transferred to production. One of the biggest fallacies has been that the tax would bring about
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      an increase in exports in some mysterious and undefined way. I remember the right hon. and learned Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd) giving all kinds of incentives in 1961 to increase exports. Each year the Chancellor gives some new incentive, and we still hope and pray without getting the necessary results, in spite of the excellent efforts made.
      Anyone who knows anything about employment in retail distribution knows that youngsters leaving school at 15 or 16 years of age in areas where there is any kind of industrial employment can get 20, 30, 40 or 50 per cent. more if they do a mundane part-time job on a production belt in a factory than if they go into a shop to work or become salesmen of goods or give services. Since 1945 there has been no superfluity of labour on which one could draw for other purposes.
      I am interested in health matters. An inevitable consequence is that I am considering all the time the problems of the disabled. The techniques which have made it possible to train blind people to be telephonists and to handle switchboards so that they may feel that they are, not living on charity, but doing a useful job have brought joy to many of us. The productivity and value of disabled people in the service industries is taxed to the extent of £2 8s. a person and this must be absorbed and reckoned in any costings of the labour of people who are not disabled. An employer who wishes to help disabled and blind people may be unable to do so because of the economic burden he has to bear as a result of this increased tax.
      A case has been made about laundries. Since I have been a Member, when any sector of the economy has been in danger of being eliminated, Governments of both parties have sought to render assistance. I became a Member 10 years ago when the Conservative Government passed a Bill to ensure that shipbuilding was not economically priced out of the market. Laundries face this problem today. They provide an essential service if people, and especially married women, are to go out to work. Because of the changing pattern of laundries and the impact of coin-operated establishments, laundries, which are still needed to give an essential service, will go out of business. There should be a much closer analysis, when the charge is as much as £2 8s. per person,

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      of how the impact falls on specific areas of the economy which might be driven out of business.
      My particular interest is in co-operative societies. In rural areas people rely entirely upon service since there are no large supermarkets. The basis of co-operative societies is that they are non-profit making and belong to the members, and any surplus which is made is returned to those members. If there is no surplus, members are lost and, once members are lost, the shops must close down. These small co-operative societies cannot be compared with joint stock companies and private companies in which people invest and may lose money. Every investment involves a certain amount of risk. There are 13½ million ordinary people who invest in co-operative societies, not capitalist investors, but people who put their savings into one of the finest small savings concerns that there is. I am not talking about London, Birmingham and Manchester but about the small societies in Yorkshire, Lancashire and elsewhere which have existed for 80 or 90 years, some of which are finding that they have to close their doors. When this happens it is not investors who lose their capital but ordinary housewives and mill workers who have accumulated a little money over the years in the dividends received according to the amount of their purchases.
      My right hon. Friend said last year that he had an open mind, and I hope that he will consider ways of abating this tax. Unfortunately, neither in Clause 43 nor in Clause 44 do any ameliorations emerge.
      This is a blunt instrument, and the decision about who pays and who does not rests on the Standard Industrial Classification. This was realised to be a blunt instrument and was revised and published in the 1968 edition, but the Chancellor did not take the opportunity of ironing out the anomalies, apart from slaughter houses and another exception which we shall be discussing on Clause 44. The hoped-for results have not been achieved, and the S.I.C. is much the same as it was when it was first put forward long ago by the Minister of Public Building and Works. The anomalies are still there, and serve to irritate still further
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      those people who find the incidence of this tax extremely onerous.
      The skills of people working in retail distribution have been down-graded. These are among the lowest wage earners, and the service which they give is incomparable. The tendency is to say that they are second-class workers in comparison with those who produce. Since when has "service" been a dirty word?
      I was hoping that this year my right hon. Friend would be able to give some concessions. I did not expect him to alter substantially his tax base, since he must raise a certain amount of money. It is more difficult for a Chancellor of the Exchequer to reduce his base of tax than it is to put a man on the moon, and it is unlikely that any Chancellor will ever reduce his base. If ever we should have the misfortune to be governed by a Tory Government, right hon. and hon. Gentleman opposite will know that £613 million will have to be raised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in some way which will not be pleasing to us. Whether this is done by a value-added tax or anything else, the taxpayer will still have to pay, and it is unlikely that my hon. Friends and I in the Co-operative movement will welcome the tax in whatever way it is imposed.
      The whole Clause is unacceptable. It has been thought fit to raise the rate right across the board, with no discrimination in the four categories, and this is an innovation. There was last year a differential between full-time and part-time workers, and there was no increase in some sectors, but this year, no. I understand that we are now committed. I am not so politically naïve as to think that when hon. Gentlemen opposite make jibes across the Chamber they will expect us on this side to link arms with them and join them in the Lobby.
      If not this year, then during the following year there will be an opportunity for the tax to be applied with more social justice and with more selectivity, to use a rapier rather than a bludgeon. I appeal to my right hon. Friend to remove the anomalies; for example, the anomaly that nationalised industries are able to sell cookers and other appliances free of tax in unfair competition with others. There are many such anomalies, of which he is well aware, and which I hope he will take account before next year so that we do

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      not then face an impost which is unacceptable, bad in its incidence, unfortunate in its presentation and which is the last thing I want to vote for.
      Sir Arthur Vere Harvey: We have had two powerful speeches from the Government benches. The right hon. and learned Member for Ipswich (Sir Dingle Foot), who speaks as a lawyer and is held in considerable esteem by the Committee, said that he had misgivings about the tax, which I can well understand. The hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt), who is a Co-operative Member, made a very strong speech against the tax but, towards the end, I thought that he was trying to work his passage back into the favour of the new Chief Whip. When we vote tonight, I doubt whether one right hon. or hon. Gentleman opposite will be in the Lobby with us. That has been the trouble over the years. It is all puff and wind. If only they would occasionally vote against their Government it might put some sense into the Government on issues which affect every constituency in the country.
      The right hon. and learned Gentleman referred to the window tax. He did not think that any Government would bring in such a tax. I would not put it beyond this Government to consider bringing in a window tax; they are quite capable of doing so.
      A few weeks ago the Government announced an increase of 10s. per week to old-age pensioners in the autumn. I wonder in this year alone how much of that 10s. will be left when inflation has had a go at it. They are the people who will have to foot the bill.
      I am constantly receiving complaints from my constituents, as no doubt are other hon. Members, about the increased cost of living all the way round. I get them even in my own home—a penny on this, 2d. on that. I was recently asked if I had some drugs to treat a person in my home who was suffering from a cold. I said that I had and was asked when they were bought. I said that they were bought about a year ago. Whereupon I was told that at that time they cost 2s. 1d. but now cost 2s. 9d. That is an illustration of the ratio of the increases, and it is nation-wide. The cost of living is rising very rapidly. The
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      Government are now past the point of return, whatever they do for the electorate. The electorate have "had" the Labour Government.
      The selective employment tax has a considerable effect of prices. I agree with the hon. Member for Willesden, West that people who work in the services are looked down upon as second-raters. Where would families be every morning without the man who delivers the milk, the man who delivers the bread? These services are essential to every citizen.
      The tax has, of course, failed to persuade people to transfer into the manufacturing industries. Every service has a bearing on the manufacturer. Laundries have been refered to, and a high proportion of the business of laundries is for industry in the washing of towels and roller towels, and the cleaning of clothes, overalls and so on. The laundry bill is a large item in many industries, particularly in dirty industries such as chemicals and engineering. Increases in the price of laundry will have an all-round effect.
      5.30 p.m.
      Among the first establishments to put on a surcharge when S.E.T. was first introduced were the British Railways hotels. They lost no time in putting on a surcharge. I had detected over the months that the Government were beginning to doubt the wisdom of the tax. It is an easy method of raising money, but when Questions were put to various Ministers they said that they were watching the matter carefully. I therefore thought that there would be some alleviation in the tax. But we are now told that there is to be a 28 per cent. increase.
      Where do the Government feel they are going in the taxation of our people? All exports will be affected involving all the items which are put on to lorries for the docks at London, Manchester, Liverpool or Southampton. The increase must put up the costs.
      The poor British motorist is clobbered every time. Costs will go up for the hotels, which bring in a great amount of money in foreign currency from tourists. Up will go the costs to hoteliers, to shops, and to laundries.
      I should like now to deal with the effects on the agricultural industry. When the tax was first introduced it was not intended that the farmers would get a

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      refund. The House had long debates about the matter, and eventually the Government thought better of it and gave way. I remember asking what was the difference between a farmer who produced milk and had to pay the tax and Cadbury's who turned the milk into chocolate and got back their premium. The Government eventually gave way on the matter.
      The Prime Minister told everybody in his now famous devaluation speech what he intended to do for agriculture. One of the quickest methods to assist the balance of payments is to improve agricultural output, and it can be done. But the agricultural industry has not been given the means to do it.
      Could the Minister say what in the forthcoming year will be the average sum of money tied up by the farmers, and what the free loan to the Government will amount to in the form of S.E.T.? The Minister said the other day that most people get their refunds within a week. I have checked up and I find that in agriculture it is nearer five or six weeks. The situation ought to be looked into. If farmers could be freed from this premium and it could be ploughed back into agriculture, then the many millions of pounds a year which would be saved on importing food would directly help the balance of payments. But the Government rarely do what is obvious.
      The tax is bound to increase unemployment, which is the last thing we want to do. We want to encourage everybody to work. The unemployment figures must rise. One or two shops I visit have been told by their head offices to cut down on staff. The Government believe that such people will go into the manufacturing industries, but a great many of manufacturing concerns are not doing too well, including the motor car industry and many others. I could give direct examples, but I will not particularise since it would not help the industry to do so. But the barometer is beginning to fall in regard to both employment and profitability. The S.E.T. is the most unhelpful tax of all.
      The tax is always passed on to the consumer. It is the poor old consumer who pays. The people it really hurts are the low-paid workers, the pensioners and those living on small fixed incomes.
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      Many people, in spite of taxation, can earn a bit extra, and it is the lowest-paid people who foot the bill. In successive Labour Governments they are the people who pay for Socialism.
      The Government will not return. They have had it and they must realise this in their constituencies. I was amazed that the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence) said yesterday that we ought to have a longer recess so that he could get among his constituents. I wonder how much he wants to get among them. From what I hear about Members they have a rough time on Fridays and Saturdays in their constituencies. I ask the Chief Secretary, in the interests of the whole nation and of industry, when people are working hard, to look again at this tax and if necessary to bring in another form of tax if the money has to be made available. This tax is iniquitous and wrong.
      [Mr. E. L. MALLALIEU in the Chair]
      Mr. Richard Wainwright: As the four Amendments which are in the names of Liberal Members testify, we oppose this Clause as strenuously as anybody in the Committee, not excluding the Co-operative Party Members. From the first, since selective employment tax was introduced, we have been anxious in opposing it not to dismiss it out of hand as though the Exchequer could do without this growing amount of revenue or to suggest that the Government can live on air or live by simply jacking up existing ineffective taxes to yield revenue on a scale which they were never intended to provide.
      This dismissal was the impression left upon me by the otherwise admirable speech of the hon. Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) who said nothing to indicate that the whole country is interested in the huge prospective yield of S.E.T. and how it would be raised under a Conservative administration.
      In discussing S.E.T., those of us on this bench believe that the Committee should recognise that there is a case to be made for a new tax which will not fall upon the profits and results of successful enterprise. We also believe that a case is to be made for a tax which is more related than any existing tax to the use made by employers of Government expenditure in looking after the

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      education and technical training and the health and welfare of the working population.
      There is also a case for a tax which is genuinely straightforward and cheap to administer, cheap not only to the Government service but also to the taxpayer himself. We are distressed that this opportunity to introduce a tax of this character has been missed. Instead, we have wasted three years with a tax which does not produce these admirable results.
      We believe that a strong case can be made for an overall payroll tax on a percentage system, without any of the alleged selective element of the selective employment tax. The selective element is the most unfortunate aspect of the whole of S.E.T. Over the last three years it has led to anomaly after anomaly and a great sense of unfairness in many industries and services in the country.
      The alleged distinction between services and manufacturing is not only unfair and unfortunate but also quite bogus and impossible to sustain in argument. One striking sector in which the fallacy of this alleged distinction is illustrated is that of the reclamation industries which save this country material which otherwise would need to be imported since we do not produce many of the raw materials ourselves. Many millions of £s are saved which contribute directly on a substantial scale to our exports. These industries take waste products and render them available as substitutes for raw materials which are often of good quality and of great use to manufacturing industries.
      The chaos and unfairness in this important sector of industry is rampant and growing. Some reclamation industries are treated as being due for a rebate of S.E.T. but others must bear the tax. None of the industries concerned can make any sense of the rules. The procedure involved is also unfortunate from the point of view of democracy. I understand that Orders are to be laid before the House to exempt the scrap metal and waste paper industries from S.E.T. quite apart from the enforced temporary loan which every undertaking must suffer.
      We are told that, if the House agrees, waste paper is shortly to be exempted by Order in Council. Good luck to the waste paper industry. In our view, it should never have had to suffer the tax. But the
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      textile reclamation industries, which contribute some £4 million a year to our export totals and provide the home textile industry with a great deal of economical raw materials are, we understand, definitely not to be exempted. No one in those industries or amongst those who advise them can understand the alleged reasoning behind the decisions. These are not incidental anomalies. They spring from the wholly bogus attempt to distinguish between so-called service and so-called manufacturing industries.
      The second reason which in our view makes it imperative that this Clause should be voted down is that it perpetuates a poll tax. As a result, if it encourages any employer to do without labour, it encourages the employers of those who are causing least waste in the economy. There is no great improvement to be sought in our affairs by pushing out of employment low-paid and unskilled workers, or people coming towards the end of their working lives. Yet it is on those sorts of people that the incidence of S.E.T. is highest from an employer's point of view.
      What is needed is a payroll tax which, operating as a percentage of remuneration, would make an employer think more carefully about the deployment of higher-paid skilled workers who are often not used to the best advantage, particularly in manufacturing industries which at the moment are exempt from the tax. In the late 1960s, there is no justification for a heavy poll tax to be increased year by year in this country, which has shown that in other respects it can put up with an extremely sophisticated tax system.
      Thirdly, as has been proved as a result of three years' experience of the tax, there is the overwhelming disadvantage of the rule about establishments and the rule whereby the liability to S.E.T. depends upon the status of the majority of workers in a concern. This has been shown again and again to produce crashing anomalies.
      I do not wish to detain the Committee with anything like all the correspondence that I for one have received. Other hon. Members will have received as many letters, if not more. I give only one example of the absurd result of the establishments rule whereby incidence of the tax depends simply upon the number of roofs under which employees of a common employer happen, by accident

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      and history, to be working. The example which I quote is that of a very efficient firm of worsted spinners and weavers whose manufacturing establishment is situated near Keighley. Being highly export conscious, like most members of that textile trade years ago the firm opened a physically separate export office in Bradford. Recently, the managing director of the firm wrote, saying:
      "In order to export more efficiently, my Company established an Export House in Bradford over 40 years ago. This Company is an integral part of our organisation, yet because we established it in Bradford, which made the communications so much better, we are now penalised to the extent that we have to pay the S.E.T. on every member of that firm."
      At the same time, other concerns in the same trade, which again purely by accident have their export unit under the same roof as the spinning and weaving operatives, suffer no S.E.T. burden at the end of the day. This sort of unfairness goes down very badly with taxpayers large and small.
      5.45 p.m.
      I hasten on to the fourth serious disadvantage of the tax, which will be aggravated by the proposed increase. This is that it is not subject to and does not lend itself to any kind of export rebate.
      I happen to be one of those who regard the cancellation of the whole export rebate scheme for indirect taxes, at the time of devaluation, as a disaster—
      Sir G. Nabarro: So do I.
      Mr. Wainwright: But this Clause could never have been incorporated in an export rebate system. If it were a payroll tax right across the board, it would be possible and practicable for exporting firms to calculate how much payroll tax they had suffered in respect of goods exported. But, with a selective tax which is only paid by some of the contributing processes to their exports, it is impossible to make any rebate calculation which could be checked or which would be satisfactory to any revenue department. It is well known that, as a result, many export trades are suffering and having to put up their prices or lower their margins because of the incidence of S.E.T. on the various professional and service trades which enter into their export costs. I am thinking of such matters
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      as insurance, accountancy and shipping services.
      All these are disadvantages which, in total, add up to a denial of any virtue in the tax. The tragedy is that, with a difference of emphasis, with a concentration upon the whole payroll with the idea that employment and the cost of providing an educated and healthy labour force is a matter which merits a return to the State from the employer, instead of S.E.T. we would have had a healthy and acceptable tax which would have got into its stride and could be bringing in something approaching the prospective S.E.T. yield of £600 million and, at the same time, would have promoted a new economy of labour in manufacturing as well as in other sectors of the economy. Because that has not happened, my hon. Friends and I intend to vote against the Clause.
      Mr. Paget: I have always been a supporter of a payroll tax, and, in fairness to Nicky Kaldor, that is how this tax was conceived.
      I believe that efficiency is a managerial function, and nothing promotes efficiency more than high wages. As wages go up, managements which wish to survive have to improve their efficiency. That has happened in agriculture, where wages have gone up by a higher proportion and where efficiency has increased at a rate twice as good as that of industry. This has been recognised by farmers, almost all of whom are paying well above minimum rates.
      It has certainly been the case in America, where there are far more militant unions than we have in this country. Those militant unions cost, in strikes, something like four times the amount that ours do. But it is well worth it, because they force up wages and, in the process, force up efficiency.
      We are suffering from inadequate militancy in the seeking of high wages. If at the moment, for reasons with which I do not altogether go along, we cannot afford to put the whole purchasing power of those higher wages into the consumer market, then a payroll tax is a highly effective manner of improving the efficiency of industry.
      I part with this tax at the point where it becomes selective. It is a distortion which is caused by our obsession with

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      exchange rates. We have to try to fudge the prices of anything which might be exported, because our obsession with a fixed exchange rate stops us adjusting export prices in the rational manner by a floating rate. So we have this selective tax.
      It is perfectly true that this selective tax has saved labour in the distributive industries. Where we save labour in the manufacturing and productive industries there is almost, by definition, an increase in efficiency. Where we save it in the service industries it is often the opposite. Few of us can be unaware from personal experience of the amount of time lost to our community today by garages and other services which are grossly inefficient because they are inadequately staffed.
      Service labour is not easy to redeploy into industry, and very little has been so deployed. The labour saved has largely gone into unemployment and self-employment. This has been particularly noticeable with the construction industries. This is the price of distortion. It produces the undesirable element of disguised employment without cards. The same thing has happened in the domestic service industries. I believe that this is a distortion.
      I believe that this tax is so unfair as to offend. People will not stomach things which are blatantly unfair, as with the divisions between those who pay and those who give an interest-free loan to the Government and those who do not pay at all.
      I instance a man who builds luxury yachts and also builds houses. He is energetically engaged in trying to persuade the tax authorities that he is really building luxury yachts, not building houses, because luxury yachts are to be encouraged and houses are to be discouraged. We cannot wear this kind of absurdity.
      I now turn to a particular factor in the wealth-making process. Services are one of the factors in the wealth-making process. To select one of those factors from the whole system either for encouragement or for discouragement simply distorts the whole. In agriculture I have often criticised fertiliser grants and ploughing grants, particular things which seek to favour one aspect of production
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      as against others, because they distort the process of production. To pick on the services as a factor in production, particularly at a time when, with automation increasing, the rôle of services in the total productive system becomes larger, is to distort the system. It also creates a motive and an interest in the producer to supply his own services instead of obtaining the services of specialists, although tax considerations apart, this would be a more efficient way to do it.
      Finally, this tax is easy to collect because somebody else does the job of the Treasury in collecting it. The reasons against it seem to me much the same as against dope. It makes life too easy for the Treasury. It will always say that the easy way to get more money and the way to get somebody else to do the work is to slap it on S.E.T. A tax which does that wants looking at with a good deal of suspicion.
      These are the main reasons why I am against the tax. I have already said that the case against making it a payroll tax is that it will put up, among other things, the prices of exports, but S.E.T. will come through the economy on to exports anyway. After all, exports tend to have a high element of transport in them. It will come through to exports eventually, but there may be some kind of short-run advantage. This is only made necessary because we are wedded to this superstition of a fixed exchange rate which governs the exchange of our imports. So we have one foolishness demanding another foolishness.
      Frankly, I should not mind the fact that I regard this tax as foolish and ill-conceived as a reason for not supporting the Government. After all, one is constantly having to choose between alternatives one does not like. When I look at the alternative of financing agriculture by a food tax designed to force up food prices and then putting an added-value tax on top of that, in an economic mad-house I would reject that kind of dementia praecox in favour of a mild schizophrenia of my right hon. Friends. I should not find this unduly difficult.
      I am more concerned about the interests of the Labour Party. I believe them to be profoundly important, not only from a narrow sectarian point of

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      view but from the point of view of the nation. I am not talking about another Labour Government. That is for perorations. I am concerned whether we shall have an Opposition. If we had an election now there would not be an Opposition. There would be fewer than 100 Members on the Labour benches. That is not an alternative Government. That would be a disaster for the country, and the wiser men on the other side know that, too. If we are to prevent that kind of disaster before the next election—and we have not too long to do it—
      Sir G. Nabarro: No, you have not.
      Mr. Paget: —we have to rebuild something of the support which we have been losing. Through a measure of inconceivable folly we have antagonised the trade unions, and now we are proceeding to clobber the Co-op. There are about 39 organisations which we are not allowed to join because they are incompatible with the interests of the Labour Party. I am wondering a little whether the Parliamentary Labour Party will have to be added to that number. If we go on much longer it will, but my attitude is that I am not going to be plus royalists que le roi, or, from the Government's point of view, more unco-operative than the Co-op. I shall do as they do, because it is crazy to try to break up the support from one of the basic elements of the Labour Party, which is the Co-operative movement. That is how I stand on this, and that is how I shall vote.
      6.0 p.m.
      Mr. John Peyton: I do not intend to follow the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) at great length. The hon. and learned Gentleman showed his kindness in trying to gather together one or two of the tattered remnants of Dr. Kaldor's reputation by saying that he was not wholly responsible for this abortion of a tax.
      I was profoundly interested in the hon. and learned Gentleman's last remarks about the future of the Labour Party, on which I grant he is a greater expert than I am. One of the forbidden groups which no Labour Member ought to join for fear of damaging the party irreparably is to be found on that Front Bench. It is not the Parliamentary Labour
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      Party but the Cabinet which is really showering death-blow after death-blow on the unfortunate party which the hon. and learned Gentleman supports.
      Last year I took part in a discussion upstairs on this tax. It was less comfortable up there. It was more stuffy. But here we are repeating the same arguments about an increased tax. We are faced with the spectacle of the House discussing a tax where the weight of the argument is entirely against it. No hon. Member has advanced one word in favour of this monster. The best that the hon. and learned Member for Northampton could do at one moment was to adduce an example of a tax that would be more insane, more criminal than this one. That is the only shred of argument which has so far been adduced in its favour.
      The right hon. and learned Member for Ipswich (Sir Dingle Foot) rightly denounced it as ill-considered and unjust. At its baptism we were told that farming was a service industry, that agriculture was not concerned with production. Had we not known Treasury Ministers better, we would have suspected a deep and twisted sense of humour, but we know that they do not have one at all.
      The hon. and learned Member for Northampton went on to say that the tax was convenient to the Treasury. Do we not know it! Are we not constantly reminded that the convenience of the Treasury is now more important and more highly regarded than the welfare of the so-called sovereign people? What do people matter by comparison with the convenience of the Treasury?
      If I had my way, every official of that Department would, as a matter of compulsion and duty, have to come here and listen to every word of the debate on this tax so that they could learn what the opinion of the House of Commons is about this creature. Come to think of it, that would have the added advantage that it would keep them out of other mischief. The fact that they were wholly occupied here, tied down in their seats, and faced with the mortification of having to listen to what hon. Members think about their creature would keep them out of other mischief.
      How do we explain to hotel keepers, at a time when the Government are going through the motions—they are pretty silly

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      motions—of trying to encourage the tourist industry, that they are to be at a disadvantage with hotel keepers on the Costa Brava? I have said before that the Government could not have done better if they had issued a glossy, gilt-edged invitation to the citizens of this country to go to the Costa Brava on a package holiday and keep away from English hotels.
      I think that the patience of hoteliers in this country is remarkable because, like other people, they are poor, faithful creatures. They trust institutions to a certain extent. They send deputations to the Treasury. I do not doubt that they are civilly received by the Chief Secretary, but where does that get them? If they knew the Chief Secretary, Treasury Ministers, and that Department a little better, perhaps they would not be so foolishly optimistic as to go there. Instead—and I am afraid this is true—they would regard the House of Commons as their only hope, and yet they would be driven to despair by the fact that tonight we are debating this tax, and that during the debate the right hon. Gentleman will get no champions for his measure except himself, and politeness forbids me from commenting on that.
      But if these hoteliers were to come here they would find it at the end of the day, following united and unanimous condemnations of the tax, the trumpets would sound and the docile sheep would tramp through the Government Lobby. The hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt) is not in favour of this tax. He has been told what his co-operatives think about it. He has consistently opposed it, but he has no influence on Government policy, and I am a little disappointed that a combination of the magnetism of my hon. Friend the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) and the force of the hon. Gentleman's argument is not going to get the hon. Gentleman into the Opposition Lobby. What a thing it is to infer that he cannot go through the Lobby with the Tories because he does not approve of the sort of things they would do. The hon. Gentleman has to face it, as have all Government supporters, that this tax is doing harm. It is regarded as harmful, and it is totally unwelcome in the country. Is not that fact going to influence hon. Gentlemen opposite at all?
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      People who already have sufficient suffering and pain resort to private nursing homes for some help and shelter, and yet the burden of this tax is placed on them irresponsibly and even cruelly.
      I shall not refer in detail to laundries, though a strong appeal was made to me the other day by a man whose business is threatened as the result of laundries being one of the victims of the tax. One of my hon. Friends mentioned the nationalised industries. How in the name of conscience can the Government justify what they are doing? They always boast about nationalised industries trading fairly. Is it not a sheer travesty of justice when one considers that the nationalised industries are put in a specially privileged position compared with ordinary privately-owned businesses?
      What of the building industry? We are told that because the building industry is not a production industry it must be one of the victims of S.E.T. I wish we could be provided with a glossary of Treasury terms so that we might relearn the language and modify our thinking to fit the convenience of our new masters.
      On one occasion a Treasury spokesman with a little more imagination than veracity, suggested that the point of imposing this tax on the building industry was to improve its productivity. If so, why not impose it on every industry? What an extraordinary argument for discriminating against the building industry, which already faces sufficient problems. Our old friend, that hardened warrior, the Chief Secretary seems to swim in a sort of permanent reservoir of the spirit of the Treasury. He seems to maintain that spirit without fear of its being punctured, wounded or diminished. Without heeding our arguments, he maintains his position and returns to the Treasury with his armour unchipped.
      I am sorry that each year we must listen to the right hon. Gentleman saying that the service industries do not pay enough and that a special form of misery must be found for them. The arguments which Treasury Ministers use in an effort to justify S.E.T. are a load of poppycock of the first magnitude, and that is a polite way of describing them.
      I suggested that the whole staff of the Treasury should attend these debates. I

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      have an even more positive suggestion. The matter should be referred to Mr. Aubrey Jones who, for several months, has been considering the steel industry's prices. We have been told that the industry, the Ministry of Power and the Treasury must have an increase in prices and, considering the matter, we gather that Mr. Jones is to give us his view in a few days' time. If Mr. Jones could be occupied with a careful consideration of S.E.T.—in the meantime, while he is undertaking that task, the tax should be suspended—the national interest would be abundantly well served in both respects.
      It would be unfair to concentrate on the chief Secretary, who has the unpleasant task of defending S.E.T. Shortly after this tax was introduced he used some immortal words in its defence—if I am misinterpreting him I hope that he will intervene—when he said, "The uproar which greeted the introduction of S.E.T. showed just how necessary it was".
      The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Diamond): They were not my precise words, but the point is very much the same.
      Mr. Peyton: I am obliged for the right hon. Gentleman's confirmation. Why uproar should justify it I do not know. In other words, unless the Government do something that is manifestly unjust, they are not serving the public interest. According to that criterion the Government deserve our most humble and united congratulations. On no other criterion, however, can they possibly deserve them.
      The purpose of S.E.T. was not nearly as vulgar as the collection of revenue. It was a trumpet call which would summon workers from the barbers' shops and building sites and drive them in their hordes on a patriotic crusade for exports. The result has been just one more gloomy failure to add to the long list of failures for which the Government have been responsible. The only aspect which I find surprising now is the total, complete, utter and absolute inability of the Government either to admit the possibility of their being wrong or to learn from their unequalled record of shabby failure.
      6.15 p.m.
      Mr. Heffer: Although I shall be critical of the application of S.E.T. on the building industry, I wish to make it clear at the outset that I do not oppose this tax in principle.
      I assure the hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made it clear when S.E.T. was introduced that it had the major purpose of raising revenue. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I thought my hearing was good, and I distinctly recall that being the express purpose of S.E.T. The tax has the additional good feature of adding a new dimension, a broader base, to our tax system. It also has an effect on redistribution, though that is only a marginal advantage. Another point in favour of S.E.T. is that it is not as direct as, for example, purchase tax, although it has been used in certain circumstances when it should not have been used.
      Since it cannot possibly be argued that the building industry is in any way a service industry, it is difficult to understand how it can be suggested that S.E.T. should apply to it because, it is said, it is concerned only with services. That suggestion is absurd, particularly when one realises that many of the ingredients that go to make up a factory are made by manufacturing industries. When those ingredients are brought together they are then called a service, even though the ultimate purpose of building a factory is to develop manufacturing. In other words, the building industry is an essential link in the production chain. I have never believed that S.E.T. should be applied to the building industry, and I beg my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to reconsider the matter.
      Let us consider the financial effects of the tax on the building and construction industry. At pre-1968 Budget rates, up to 1st September 1968, the tax brought in £80 million. At pre-1969 Budget rates, from 2nd September 1968 to 6th July 1969, it brought in £120 million. At post-1969 Budget rates, from 7th July this year, it is estimated, the added burden to the building industry is likely to be between £152 million and £155 million. That is a colossal burden for any industry to carry, particularly when it is not a

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      service industry. I will return later to the question of what has happened to some of the labour which, we are told, is being shuffled out of the building industry into other industries.
      Let us consider the effect of S.E.T. on house building, for if there is an added burden on the building industry, part of it must fall on house building. In a Written Answer in HANSARD, 18th April, 1969, col. 309, my right hon. Friend now the Chief Whip said that after the increase in S.E.T., the additional cost on a £3,000 house will be £25 per house; but the total additional cost per house since S.E.T. was introduced is about £150 on a £3,000 house. I do not know where anyone can get a house built nowadays for £3,000. I am sure that most houses cost a lot more.
      This means an added burden to local authorities which in turn put an increased burden on their ratepayers and rentpayers. It is passed on to the consumer. Consider, too, the problem for a young couple purchasing a new house for the first time. In any case that young couple may find some difficulty in raising a mortgage. The added cost of £200 may make the difference between their having to continue to live in rooms and their buying a house. My right hon. Friend must look at the whole question again.
      At the Trades Union Congress a resolution was moved on the subject by George Lowthian, General Secretary of the Amalgamated Union of Building Trade Workers—the bricklayers. He was naturally concerned, in particular, with the construction industry. He described this as
      "a bad tax, hastily thought out and, I would suggest, badly applied."
      The resolution which was passed was as follows:
      "This Congress expresses its concern at the effect of the selective employment tax and in particular draws attenton to the undesirable consequences it has had in the field of self-employment. It therefore calls on the Government to examine the operation and the results of the tax and to review whether the tax should be modified or eliminated."
      That resolution was not carried by the Congress, for it was not put to the vote; it was remitted to the General Council, which stated that it would produce its own report on the selective employment tax I have checked up on what has happened. The General Council of the T.U.C., like
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      everybody else in the country, has been awaiting the Reddaway Report. Its view was expressed by Mr. Victor Feather following the Budget proposals. He said that he was surprised that there had been an increase in the tax before the Reddaway Report was published. That was the authentic view of the T.U.C. It is not saying that there should not be a selective employment tax, but it is expressing its surprise.
      The resolution which was remitted to the General Council was particularly concerned with the question of self-employment. Let us consider what has happened. A suggestion has been made that workers have left the building industry to go into other industries. We are told that that is part of the objective of S.E.T. Figures have been given that there was an increase in the numbers in the industry in the 1950's and 1960's and that in the last few years, particularly since the operation of the tax, the numbers in the building and construction industry have decreased. On the surface, that looks as though the tax is working—on the surface. But the reality is not that the workers have gone out of the industry. It is that they have become self-employed. They have become labour-only. They have become what are known in the industry as "gangs on the lump". The tax has not had the result which we were told it would have. It has the very opposite effect, and the numbers of self-employed have increased.
      I refer hon. Members to the Phelps Brown Report—Cmnd. 3714, page 117. They will read:
      "It is far from easy on the basis of a sample of firms to make any overall estimate of the present size of the labour-only sub-contracting labour force in construction; from the available evidence it looks as though the numbers involved might be in the region of 165,000–200,000."
      In view of the fact that there are fewer than 1½ million workers in the building and construction industry, we realise that the 200,000 of them who are labour-only represent a pretty good slice of the workers in that industry. I should like my right hon. Friend to look at the whole matter again. I assure him that my figures are accurate. I do not give figures in the House unless they are accurate. It seems to me that the time has come for the whole question of the application of S.E.T. to the building industry to be reconsidered by the Government.
      Sir G. Nabarro: This year.
      Mr. Heffer: Now, immediately.
      Sir G. Nabarro: I quite agree.
      Mr. Heffer: Later I shall move another Amendment. I will not at this stage go into the question of apprenticeships, but the tax has an important effect on apprenticeship and training and the whole development and future of the building industry.
      I regard this as a vital matter. I therefore conclude by asking my right hon. Friend, apart from all the other arguments which have been used in the debate, specifically to have a further look at the bad effect which the tax is having on the building industry. I ask him to reverse the policy in relation to the building industry now. I ask him to recognise that building is an essential part of our productive process and our manufacturing process and cannot be considered as a service industry in the sense in which other industries are so regarded.
      6.30 p.m.
      Mr. R. H. Turton: The hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) began his speech by trying to find some justification for this tax. I thought that what he was justifying was not selective employment tax but an employment tax.
      All the speeches in this debate have shown that this tax has been proved unfair in its incidence and damaging to the economy. The Chancellor himself recognised that by appointing the Reddaway Committee to inquire into it. I find it hard to excuse the Chancellor because he has raised the tax by 28 per cent. before the Reddaway Committee had reported and while it is still considering this problem. This will have the effect of widening the disparities which at present exist, aggravating the inflationary effects, and hampering our attempts to correct our balance of payments position.
      I want to concentrate my remarks on the effect on the balance of payments. If we are really determined to correct our balance of payments I am convinced that we have to concentrate far more than we have done on import saving, and especially on invisible exports. Figures for 1967, the last year for which I have figures available, show that in the private sector visible and invisible exports
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      totalled £7,000 million. Of that, 70 per cent. was for visible exports and 30 per cent. for invisible exports.
      Selective employment tax is levied on manufacture but visible exports have a refund while for invisible exports there is no refund. It is three years since Professor Reddaway drew attention to this and asked the Government to look at it, but so far as I know there has been no relief for invisible exports. Whether one is trying to sell goods, or insurance abroad or doing any form of export promotion, this tax is levied without refund. Although those manufacturing for home consumption bear this tax, they get the refund. This adds to what is going wrong in this country—very heavy consumption at home. It makes it more difficult to earn abroad, thus adding to our balance of payments difficulties.
      I must not speak at length about the tourist industry because that will be dealt with when we come to other Amendments. If we are trying to get credit from abroad for the tourist industry it is senseless to say that an hotel in one area should be allowed a refund whereas an hotel in another area should get no refund. The object should be to attract foreign exchange to Britain as a whole. To select, as this tax does, between different areas for the tourist industry seems quite wrong.
      I want to look at the very odd effect of this tax on education. I cannot understand why we should have this form of selective poll tax on education, nor, still more, why we have this curious division by which the tax falls on certain establishments but not on others. I should have thought that all of us wanted to try to keep the cost of educating our children as low as possible and also to encourage the education in Britain of children from overseas. That represents a very considerable invisible export at present.
      The National Consultative Committee on Independent Education carried out a 3½ per cent. sample on this problem to find what is actually saved and brought in foreign currency to this country through independent education. The figures showed that in that 3½ per cent. sample there were 1,267 overseas pupils. Grossing that up, in the total for this country we have £37 million from boarding

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      schools. In addition there are 2,000 day schools where the saving is not so great. It is clear that the actual import saving from independent education brings in a figure of over £40 million a year to this country. Why should we penalise that by this tax? I cannot understand why the tax is being increased.
      Sir Harmar Nicholls: My right hon. Friend said that he could not understand it. I think this is one issue on which the Chancellor has made himself perfectly clear. He has not attempted to justify the increase but said that he made it because this is the easiest form of tax collection and does not entail taking on more civil servants.
      Mr. Turton: I hope that the Chancellor will give an explanation at the end of the debate, but I am delighted that my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Sir Harmar Nicholls) has anticipated the Chancellor's reply. Raising the tax by 28 per cent. will have such an effect on education that some schools will close. The children who come to them from overseas will move to education establishments abroad. Then this money will not come to Britain, as a result of the Chancellor's action.
      We have heard many speeches from hon. Members opposite—from those who dislike this tax. I know from long experience in this House that however much they dislike the tax they will not go into the Lobby against this Clause. I hope that this Clause will be defeated. I hope that the Chancellor will think again about increasing the tax while the Reddaway Committee is still considering the matter. There is a way in which he could deal with it. He could postpone the operation of the Clause until after he had received the Reddaway Report and adopted those recommendations of Professor Reddaway and his Committee with which he agrees. I hope he will consider that. Otherwise he will widen the disparities and damage the economy very much, particularly from the balance of payments point of view.
      [Mr. HARRY GOURLAY in the Chair.]
      Mr. Arthur Lewis: My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer), having first said that in principle he was not against the tax, spent almost the whole of the rest of his speech pointing out how unfair
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      and ludicrous the tax was. I thought that he knew, as all of us on this side know, that there is doubt about its origin. The Chief Secretary intervened to say that the tax was originally introduced to raise revenue. I recollect that my right hon. Friend the present Home Secretary said that one of the main reasons for its introduction was to shake people out of non-productive, inessential industries into export industries. My right hon. Friend went on to explain that it was also a good and easy means of raising revenue. I shall explain why I do not think that the tax has achieved anything of the first and has had no effect on the second.
      Mr. Mendelson: I know that my hon. Friend, whom I have known for many years, will want to be accurate, in fairness to the Government. When the present Home Secretary introduced this tax he said at great length that it was a revenue-raising measure in the first place. He said that he had looked at all the traditional possibilities—putting a little more on beer or on cigarettes—[Interruption.]—this is verbatim. Hon. Members do not like the truth. My hon. Friend said that he had decided on S.E.T. and that that was its purpose. He warned the House that, though it was hoped that there would be some transfer from service industries to other industries, no quick results could be expected.
      Mr. Lewis: My hon. Friend and I must have been in different Houses at the time. I also heard the then Chancellor go on to explain how this would mean a shaking out of the inessentials into essential work. It has not happened. I agree that subsequently the raison d'être of the tax has shifted to that of being a revenue raiser.
      Mr. Mendelson: My hon. Friend must tell the truth about the Government and about everybody else.
      Mr. Lewis: I differ from my hon. Friend and can only state my impression. My hon. Friend is entitled to his view.
      Mr. Mendelson: It is a fact, not a view.
      Mr. Lewis: We can look it up in the OFFICIAL REPORT. My hon. Friend has agreed that one of the reasons for the introduction of the tax was to shake out inessentials.
      Mr. Mendelson: That was a secondary reason.
      Mr. Lewis: I will accept for the sake of the argument that it was secondary, but I do not think that the tax has had that secondary effect either. Far from transferring people from inessential industries to essential industries, the reverse has happened. The inessential industries—the candyfloss type of industries—are able to afford to pay the tax much more easily than industries engaged in the hard task of exporting.
      I asked the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) the date of the Budget for the specific reason of getting confirmation of my recollection that it was 15th April. In the week following 15th April this very material letter appeared in the Daily Telegraph correspondence column:
      "Sir, on April 14th I arrived back in the United Kingdom from North America bringing with me orders for over 600 million dollars of our products. Within 24 hours I am rewarded by the Chancellor with a £2,000 a year increase in selective employment tax on myself and my export staff. Does the Chancellor know anything about the important function of the export salesman or is the increased S.E.T. really, as stated. 'to encourage me to transfer all my export salesmen to the car production line'? If so, who will sell them?
      Surely the Chancellor must recognise that exporting is not a 'service industry' but the vital last part in the whole export production industry."
      That letter was written by Graham Arnold, the Group Sales Director of Lotus Car (Sales) Limited. Today that firm published its report. It has done an excellent job. It has achieved an 80 per cent. increase in export turnover over the year.
      6.45 p.m.
      Not only is the tax not helping industry. It is harming exports. The whole thing is ludicrous. I can quote an example of a firm which has a manufacturing depôt down by the Thames and an office in the City of London. In respect of the group of workers doing non-productive—service—work in the office there could be no refund. The firm has shifted its office workers out of the City down to the factory on the Thames, and now it does not have to pay the tax because they are working in a productive factory. This is crazy. The tax is not helping to promote exports, which is what the Government have stated as one of their foremost aims.
      I must declare an interest here. I have been a Co-op member all my life. I have no financial interest with the Co-op; I
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      am not sponsored. This organisation, which has done an enormous amount of work to help ordinary workers to purchase consumer goods, will be hit by the increase.
      I am very concerned that people can get money to buy houses to live in. There are many difficulties strewn in their path. One of the most essential aspects is that building societies should as far as possible not have their costs increased. This is a very important service industry. I should like the Chancellor to work out a system of selective employment tax, if he must have it, on the basis of selecting those types of work, industry and service that can be and are of use to the well-being of the country and to the export trade.
      The same is happening to hotels and restaurants. A friend of mine successfully runs a very luxurious restaurant in the West End.
      Sir G. Nabarro: The hon. Gentleman's friend will indeed be successful if the hon. Gentleman is himself a customer.
      Mr. Lewis: I shall do no advertising. My friend earns for Britain Swiss francs, Deutschmarks, dollars and other hard currency, but he must pay the tax with no refund. His brother, who has a firm that makes one-armed bandits and pin tables, gets a refund. What a crazy setup. Here we have people engaged in the manufacture of one-armed bandits, pin tables and so on. I am not moralising and saying whether we should or should not have these articles. All I am saying is that it seems crazy that the man who is earning hard currency and helping our balance of payments should have to pay this tax, whereas the man who manufactures goods which are inessential from the point of view of the country's economy is able to get a refund.
      There should be some examination of this question. I hope the Chancellor will drop this tax but, even if he is wedded to it, he ought to work out a system whereby it is applied properly and does not have the exact opposite effect to that which was originally suggested as one of the purposes, if not the main purpose, of the tax. If the Chancellor does this, we may be able to look at the whole question of revenue raising and see whether there can be some alleviation of the effect on such industries as I have

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      mentioned, including the Co-operative movement.
      Mr. John Hall: I suppose I have listened to all the debates on selective employment tax since the tax was introduced in September, 1966. I confess that I have found today's debate increasingly depressing, not because of the delivery of the speeches—we have had some powerful and interesting speeches from both sides of the Committee this afternoon—but because, although there has been almost complete agreement on both sides of the Committee that the selective employment tax is a bad tax which ought to be abolished, and although the number of Members who have raised even half a voice in defence of the tax could be numbered on the fingers of one hand over a period of three years, nevertheless the Treasury Bench has been able to impose its will each time. Hon. Members opposite have trooped obediently through the Lobby in support of their own Front Bench.
      I know that this is common practice, and I have been in the House too long to expect that on most occasions when hon. Members on the Government side disagree with their Front Bench they will necessarily follow up their views with their votes. But there are times—and this is one—when the House as a whole should consider the national interest first and foremost. There are occasions when the back benchers on both sides, who show much more common sense in looking at matters before the House, should unite.
      Mr. Mendelson: The hon. Gentleman ought to say something about the partisan policies that the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) is now preparing in order to shift over £1,000 million from direct to indirect taxation to help the rich and put more of the burden on the lower income groups. The hon. Gentleman should talk about that before he talks about hon. Members considering the national interest.
      Mr. Hall: That shows what a mistake it is to give way to the hon. Member. I am trying to put forward a serious point. I am saying—and I think hon. Members on both sides agree—that we are now discussing the raising of about £613 million, and this is a very serious matter which affects many people in the country.
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      It has been agreed, almost without contradiction on both sides of the Committee on many occasions, that the impact of this tax is uneven and unfair. It has produced hardship, it is damaging to the economy of the country and it jeopardises exports. There is general agreement on this, and we therefore agree that it is not in the national interest that we should have a tax of this kind.
      I know the problems which face a Chancellor of any Government when dealing with opposition to a tax which raises a very large part of his revenue. I know also that the tradition has grown up over many years that one should not vote against one's Government's Finance Bill, or even a part of it. I have never been able to understand why one should not vote against a Clause in a Finance Bill without it being regarded as a vote of confidence against the Government. I can see no reason why, if the House is united against a particular proposal, hon. Members should not vote against a Government Measure and ask the Government to think again.
      If we were all to vote against the Clause it would leave the Chancellor with £613 million to find somehow. This is the reason why he is resisting the opposition to the Clause, because he has got to find the money. We know this is the reason why the Clause was put in the Bill in the first place and also the reason why the Chancellor will ignore the Reddaway Report. If hon. Members opposite are genuinely concerned about this matter and are not just putting on a front, they should say to the Chancellor, "We do not like this tax. We realise you have got to raise a certain amount of money. Do it in one or two other ways." He could, for example, treat it as a payroll tax, as was suggested by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), and spread it right across the board so that a much smaller percentage was paid by everybody. He should not give rebates to manufacturing industries. There should be a much smaller tax covering all industry so that it would have a fairer impact. He should do that now in place of the method he is now proposing, preparatory to finding a different form of taxation next year.
      I ask hon. Members to defeat the Clause. Let the Government replace it with something which is much more just

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      and spread across industry. This would be much more readily acceptable by the country. There are 18 Members representing the Co-operative movement. They know that the Co-operative movement is entirely opposed to this tax. Every time a Member representing the Co-operative movement has spoken he has given reasons why this is a bad tax. If those hon. Members had a completely free vote instead of feeling that it would a matter of grave embarrassment to the Government, they would accompany us in the Lobby against the Clause. I suggest that those 18 Members and, indeed, every other Member who has spoken out of genuine conviction, should put the national interest first and foremost. [Laughter]. The hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) laughs at the idea of putting the national interest first. I can imagine him doing that. I am putting this as a serious proposition. How does it sound to the electors of this country when hon. Members on the Government benches laugh at the idea of the national interest being put first?
      Mr. Mendelson: I am laughing at the hon. Gentleman.
      Mr. Hall: The hon. Gentleman may laugh at me if he likes. That is unimportant. I ask hon. Members to defeat the Clause. I ask them to consider their consciences and carry their convictions into the Lobby. I say to them: vote against the Clause, but, if you like, support other measures which will raise the same amount of money. It is not very much to ask people to have the courage of their convictions, although I know it is sometimes difficult to carry out. I hope that if we divide on the Clause, at least some hon. Members opposite will have the courage to follow us into the Lobby against this bad tax.
      Mr. Roy Jenkins: I hasten to say that I am not rising with any desire to bring the debate to an end. It is a matter for the Committee to decide how it desires to use the time available, but it seems to me that, the debate having run for about three hours, it would be desirable that I should intervene briefly at this stage and that the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) might then wish to follow me.
      Mr. Iain Macleod indicated dissent.
      Mr. Jenkins: That is entirely a matter for the right hon. Gentleman. I should like to express some views on the Clause, and then the debate can continue. That was a useful way in which to proceed in the debate on the income tax, and I think that it is useful now.
      7.0 p.m.
      The hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) might have been more persuasive—and we have heard some very persuasive speeches—if he had talked more about the merits of the point than about the consciences of my hon. Friends. It is true, and I have seen this happen many times, that the overwhelming majority of those who have spoken have spoken against the tax. This is not an unusual position for Chancellors of the Exchequer to find themselves in. Except when I was in another office, I have participated in Finance Bill debates in one form or another since 1948, and whenever an individual tax is being debated the situation is different from that when the Budget as a whole is being considered. Almost all those who speak are opposed to the tax rather than in favour of it. It is much more difficult to have unity in the Chamber as to how one would replace the tax one does not like. That is one reason why, from the point of view of sensible budgeting, votes sometimes reflect the position rather differently from speeches.
      Mr. John Hall: I did not enter into the merits of the tax because I thought that they had been deployed so consistently in so many debates that it was not necessary to go into them again. I wished to be brief so as to give many other hon. Members an opportunity to speak.
      Mr. Jenkins: I fully appreciate the hon. Gentleman's desire to be brief, and that the arguments have been deployed, and I do not wish to pursue that point any further.
      Let me begin by trying to clear up a point which caused some dispute between my hon. Friends the Members for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis) and Penistone (Mr. John Mendelson) on why the tax was first introduced. There always seems to be confusion about this,

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      and I should like at least to be able to clear this up.
      When the tax was first introduced it was stated quite clearly that there were three reasons: first, to raise a substantial amount of revenue without significantly adding to the cost of manufacturing industry; second, to broaden the basis of taxation; and, third, to encourage economy in the use of labour in the construction and service industries. To some extent it is within this framework that I wish to speak.
      Mr. Ian MacArthur: The right hon. Gentleman will recall that the then Chancellor, in his speech on 3rd May, 1966, devoted the largest amount of the time he spent on those three reasons to the third, which was the redeployment of labour. He clearly regarded that as one of the most important reasons.
      Mr. Jenkins: My right hon. Friend gave it as the third reason. He may well have thought it the one that needed arguing to the greatest extent. Some points can be put more succinctly than others.
      I should like to clear up what seems to me to be a fallacy occasionally put from both sides, namely, that there must be a single reason for a tax, that if one says that there is reason A for a tax and also reasons B and C, one is contradicting oneself. This is not a sensible approach to taxation. When one seeks to justify a tax it is often necessary and desirable that there should be several supporting arguments, and several arguments to balance those on the other side. I certainly would not claim perfection for S.E.T. There is no tax which is perfect and which does not arouse opposition and does not have substantial arguments against it. I recognise that without question.
      But choices have to be made between taxes and between varying courses, none of which is ideal. I have noticed in today's debate that while there have been many speeches against the tax they have varied a great deal. Some have been moderate and some have been less moderate. My hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt) was moderate, as always, and was therefore extremely persuasive. I know the difficulties from which he feels the Co-operative movement suffers under the
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      tax, and I know how faithful a spokesman of that movement he has been.
      Some speeches have contradicted others, and some have contradicted themselves. The hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) laid down as an absolute principle that the tax was always fully passed on. Indeed, he said that it was more than fully passed on. It is the case that if the tax were always fully passed on it might have undesirable consequences for the consumers. This might refute some of the arguments which have been put forward from this Bench, but that is totally incompatible with the view that the tax damages the competitive position of industries which have to try to absorb it. The argument cannot be had both ways. If it is fully passed on, without any difficulty, there is no problem from the point of view of the industries. The hon. Gentleman rather contradicted himself, because having announced that everything was passed on he proceeded to announce that the tax was extremely damaging to the cause of the private schools, many of which were closing down as a result.
      Sir G. Nabarro: The right hon. Gentleman is attributing to me two propositions, neither of which did I make, as he will acknowledge when he reads my speech tomorrow. At no time did I refer to any school closing down. I merely drew attention to the inequity of the position that S.E.T. did not have to be paid in respect of State school staff but had to be paid in respect of private school staff. I did not make the point which the right hon. Gentleman said was mutually contradictory. I said that selective employment tax in the retail and distributive trades was wholly passed on, and indeed it is. I stand by that.
      Mr. Jenkins: Of course. That is absolutely what I said the hon. Gentleman said; he said with great emphasis that it was more than fully passed on. This is within the recollection of the Committee, and I assume that the hon. Gentleman was serious for once in the point he was making. This somewhat contradicted other arguments which have been put forward.
      If the hon. Gentleman did not say that damage was done to private schools,

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      I am sorry if I misrepresented him, and I accept what he said. But on the main point there cannot be the slightest question that the hon. Gentleman made it abundantly clear that the tax was fully passed on.
      I want to deal briefly with what seem to me to be some of the substantial arguments for the tax, which are ignored in discussion of it, though I say this in the context that, as I said earlier, no tax is perfect.
      The right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) suggested that my setting up the Reddaway inquiry showed that I had no real faith in the tax. This is not a valid point. It is not sensible to say that a Chancellor cannot use a tax unless he is so dogmatic about it that he cannot possibly believe that any inquiry could shed new light upon it. One could argue by this analogy that it would have been wrong to use income tax while, in the middle 1950s, the Cohen Committee and later the Radcliffe Committee were sitting on the subject. I would have liked to have the Reddaway report before I had to raise the tax again. I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ipswich (Sir Dingle Foot) and my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, West will realise that the fact that I had used the tax further in no way means that my mind is closed to what Reddaway says. I shall consider very carefully what Reddaway says and will pay great attention to the conclusions of the report.
      However, it does not follow from this that one could freeze the position in the meantime. The hon. Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) who always argues very closely and makes very perceptive points, raised one point which indicates why it would be perhaps particularly difficult to freeze S.E.T. for a period. He said almost as a criticism of the tax that it was not dynamic; its yield did not grow as the economy grew, as wages went up or the level of consumption rose, and in this respect it was different from income tax and most of the excise duties. That is true, and it follows that when it remains without any increase the proportionate burden of the tax falls. I have increased the tax a good deal more than proportionately, but
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      no change in it would mean, unlike the case of income tax and many other taxes, that there would be an actual fall.
      I want to put to the Committee what appear to me to be the main arguments for the tax. First, for any Chancellor the revenue-raising argument in favour of any tax is always very substantial. I do not see any of my predecessors in the Committee, but I am sure that none of them would deny that. This tax raises over £600 million at present and it would, indeed, be difficult to replace that revenue by other means. It is equivalent to an extra 2s. 9d. on income tax, to raising purchase tax all round by 60 per cent. or to 3s. extra on a gallon of petrol. Those are very substantial sums indeed. I will come a little later to the value added tax proposal which has been mentioned as a possible alternative.
      Secondly, S.E.T. is undeniably easy and cheap and efficient to collect.
      Sir Harmar Nicholls: That is the only reason.
      Mr. Jenkins: I am giving the Committee five reasons. That may be the only reason that the hon. Gentleman can see but it is not the only one I am giving. Nevertheless, it would be foolish to ignore that reason entirely. Certainly, it would be foolish of the Opposition, who make great play about the number of civil servants and demand that it be reduced and that bureaucracy be avoided, if it were to ignore the argument that S.E.T. is cheap and efficient to collect.
      Anyone in his right mind considering a tax is bound to have regard to whether collecting it raises or does not raise great administrative complexity. The fact is that S.E.T., to be collected, costs ·4 of 1 per cent. of its yield as against 1 ·4 per cent. of the yield of inland revenue taxes and just under 1 per cent. of the yield of customs and excise duties. I may add that, in the case of value-added tax, the collection costs might well exceed the inland revenue or customs and excise costs. The value-added tax would be very heavy in costs of collection, including the demands on the skilled manpower within the Civil Service. That fact must be faced.
      I come now to the third reason for S.E.T. It appears to me that there is a substantial case for endeavouring to achieve some balance between taxation

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      on services and taxation of goods. We can perhaps take as our starting point that no one likes taxation as such, but, so far as goods are concerned, this is an obvious fact which I, who have to read my mail each day, would be the last to ignore. The range of goods subject to purchase tax is very wide indeed, and the purchase tax varies between 13 ¾ per cent. at the lowest rate and 55 per cent. at the highest. The rates of tax for alcoholic drinks, tobacco and petrol are still higher.
      The service industries, before S.E.T. was introduced, bore no taxation as such. The fact that S.E.T., by being introduced and increased, as it has been, steeply in two subsequent years, imposes taxation upon service industries does not mean—and here I disagree with the emphasis of my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, West—that I begin to regard people engaged in the service industries as second-class citizens or that I regard "services" as a dirty word. If those who pay tax are to be regarded as second-class citizens, there are not going to be many first-class citizens left in this or any other country. Nor does it mean that, because one wishes to spread the burden of taxation, one is opposed to the activity upon which that taxation is being placed.
      Mr. Arthur Palmer: This is just the difficulty of the co-operative societies, since they concentrate largely on giving services rather than making a profit, and if they are taxed in this way all they can do in the end is to withdraw the services.
      7.15 p.m.
      Mr. Jenkins: My hon. Friend is using the word "services" in a rather different sense from that in which I am using it and in which it is generally used in this Committee. He is defining it as being something for community purposes rather than for profit purposes. I was defining it in the general meaning as a means of producing for people something which they will pay for in a tangible rather than an intangible form.
      Sir Harmar Nicholls Sir Harmar Nicholls rose—
      Mr. Jenkins: No. I really must get on. To be interrupted every other sentence is not conducive to rational argument or to the convenience of the House.
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      I will give way to the hon. Gentleman later on.
      So far from regarding the development of services as wrong or retrograde, I regard it as inevitable that as society advances, as our standard of living gets higher, so people will choose to devote a higher proportion of their income to services rather than to goods. If one looks around the world, one sees that it is undoubtedly the case that, the more advanced countries are, the higher their standard of living, the higher is the proportion of their national income spent upon services rather than goods. In very primitive communities, everyone spends mainly on goods. In more advanced communities, a very high proportion goes upon services. But this inevitable and desirable development means that it is desirable that services should contribute to their part of taxation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why tax retailers?"] Because retailers add a service and because there can be a very great difference between the way in which one can buy something in the cheapest possible way and in another way which involves heavy service costs in delivery, elaborate premises, credit facilities and the rest. I may add here, since the Opposition are great advocates of the value added tax, that that tax would add a further stage of taxation at the retail outlet. It adds further taxation at each stage. So the argument against S.E.T. being levied on retailers applies just as much against the value added tax.
      However, I was engaged in putting the case that societies as they develop and become richer and more advanced spend more of their national income on services. From this there follow two propositions. First, if one does not tax services at all and puts all one's taxation upon goods, one will be concentrating one's tax on proportionately a narrower basis of national income as time goes on; second, just as richer countries spend more of their income upon services than do poorer countries, so, within a given country at a given stage of development, richer people spend more on services than do poorer people.
      One of the central arguments about our taxation problems at present appears to be that, on the whole, evidence suggests that people prefer paying indirect taxation to paying direct taxation but that,

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      also on the whole—and these are broad propositions subject to qualifications—indirect taxation is more regressive than direct taxation. One of the problems of fiscal policy is to try to reconcile these differences, the fact that direct taxation tends to be fairer, but tends to be more resented because it bears more directly on the individual. This being so, to take the view that services should be exempt from taxation when goods bear a very heavy tax seems to be a foolish view for a fiscal policy. It is also the case that—while I fully accept the arguments that it is right, natural and inevitable that as society develops so more and more of our national income, proportionately, will go into services—it is possible for a community to see this happen too fast.
      I suggest that in the days before S.E.T., the early 'sixties, running up to S.E.T., this is precisely what was happening here. Between 1960 and 1965, of a total number of 1,300,000 persons coming into employment only 142,000 went into manufacturing industries. This was too small a proportion and it has been reasonable, as has occurred, to tilt the proportion the other way. The growth of service industries is a development which will go on, rightly so. In those five years it was happening too fast for the health of our manufacturing industry and the health of our exports.
      I was asked several questions about the cost of living. The hon. Member for Worthing asked me how much of this tax was passed on. I indicated in my Budget speech, and have stressed since, that as to the effect on the Retail Price Index, the effect of S.E.T. is only about a third of that of an increase in purchase tax or the traditional excise duties.
      Mr. Burden: But this year we have them both.
      Mr. Jenkins: I have caught the hon. Member's point, and appreciated its irrelevance. The effect on the Retail Price Index is very small, much smaller than any other form of indirect taxation. This does not mean that only a third of the tax is passed on. What is passed on, on the best estimate we can make, is something over one half. Certainly not as much as two-thirds. The rest is absorbed. This means that it is less heavy on the Retail Price Index. Why? Because it is much less regressive than other forms of taxation.
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      It is almost invariable that forms of indirect taxation which are more regressive than average are heavy on the Retail Price Index and forms of indirect taxation which are less regressive than average are lighter on the index. This supports my earlier point.
      Mr. Higgins: None the less the effect on prices in the country as a whole is just as great. It is simply that the index is more selective.
      Mr. Jenkins: It is certainly the case that more than one-third is passed on in prices. I accept that. The effect on some prices is higher than would be indicated by the index alone. If we are considering the possible inflationary effect upon wages the index is far more sensitive than items which do not enter into the index. Broadly speaking there cannot be much criticism of the index.
      I come now to some alternatives which have been put forward. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) said that he would like a payroll tax. This has the advantage of not being selective. There is no difficulty of defending particular frontiers. Any selective tax leaves one with a difficult frontier to defend. There would be a significant effect on the level of wage costs in manufacturing industry as a result of this tax. They would be put up, if the present burden were to be spread across the whole of industry, by approximately 4 per cent. This would be a heavy burden to add to the export prices of our manufactured goods.
      Contrary to some impressions which have been given weight, so far, partly as a result of a big spurt in productivity, partly as a result of the fact that some other countries have had their prices going up pretty fast, we have maintained the price advantage of devaluation over the past eighteen months to the full extent we expected—to the extent of about 7 per cent. which is always what we assumed. Our best estimates were that we would maintain this, largely for the two reasons I have given.
      To take a 4 per cent. increase, additional to anything else, on the wage bill of manufacturing industry would be a fairly heavy burden. I am not underestimating the crucial importance of invisible earnings to this country. At times, in looking at our present position, we

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      sometimes look too much at the visible trade balance and not enough at the invisible balance. The invisible balance has been doing very well for the past year, very well recently. Our traditional position as a country—the reverse of the United States—is that we have had a trade deficit balanced out by substantial invisible surpluses. The United States traditionally—it has disappeared recently—tends to have a huge trade surplus, though it has balanced out in recent years.
      Sir Cyril Osborne: It is not true. The right hon. Gentleman says that the visible is balanced by the invisible. Last year's White Paper showed that, allowing for the invisibles, we were still £419 million on the wrong side.
      Mr. Jenkins: I wish the hon. Member would not interrupt the Committee on a point like that. I was endeavouring to discuss, and I thought the Committee was following me, the traditional position of this country over a sweep of several decades, going back over a hundred years. We have very rarely had a visible trade balance, only in two years in the last century I think.
      I would not underestimate the importance of the invisible account. What I believe is undoubtedly the case is that our visible exports are far more price sensitive than our invisible earnings. I have no doubt at all that that is so. It is certainly the case that those sectors which pay S.E.T. have done strikingly well in invisible earnings since S.E.T. came into operation. It would very difficult indeed to reconcile this fact with the suggestions that they are staggering under the burden and ruined by it. This is undoubtedly the case, and if hon. Gentlemen wish to follow the argument they ought to appreciate this point.
      Sir Harmar Nicholls: The right hon. Gentleman is forgetting that this new tax the 28 per cent., has not come in yet. This is the last straw. We are absorbing some of it but we are warning him that this cannot and will not be absorbed and that it will affect the invisible trade balance more than he imagines.
      Mr. Jenkins: The hon. Gentleman is wrong in his approach to this matter. For instance, he will find that industries which do very well from this point of
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      view—banking and insurance—are the one exception where labour has increased pretty substantially, raising costs. It is a relatively small proportion of their costs. Their earnings have also increased substantially.
      I turn to the main alternative mentioned by the hon. Member for Worthing which I imagine is also in the mind of his right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West and which was also in the mind of the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South—T.V.A. The Opposition are putting a tremendous burden on T.V.A. I understand that they expect it to allow them to abolish S.E.T.—although I notice that they have moved from saying, "We will abolish it at once" to saying, "We will abolish it as soon as practicable"—to get rid of purchase tax, and to pay for a substantial reduction in direct taxation. This would involve a very formidable rate of T.V.A.
      I wonder what the coverage would be. I understand that it may not go on food. That will be discriminatory. Will it be on restaurants? Will it be on fuel? Will it be on all or only some points of distribution? If it is on all points of distribution, it will be vastly expensive administratively. If it is on some points, it will be discriminatory. I doubt whether hon. Members opposite will have the opportunity of putting their ideas into effect, and that must be a substantial comfort to the more financially responsible among them. Were they by chance to have the opportunity of putting their ideas into effect, they would find T.V.A. less of a golden key to every fiscal problem than they assume.
      I have given, not one reason, as the hon. Member for Peterborough said, but at least four or five reasons why selective employment tax, while not perfect—and, like many other taxes, it has deficiencies—has its virtues. Taxes must be considered not according to whether they are perfect, but according to whether there is something better to put in their place, and I have not yet heard a better alternative to S.E.T.
      Mr. Peter Emery: Two of the major reasons for selective employment tax which were advanced by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer in his statement in May, 1966, have been

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      dropped. Referring to the tax, the right hon. Gentleman said:
      "… it will prove in future years to be a very valuable addition to the measures available, first, as a means of raising revenue, and also as an incentive for labour economies and manpower redeployment."
      Obviously that is not happening now. The right hon. Gentleman continued:
      "The scheme will produce an easing in home demand this year, will open the way for a progressive strengthening of manufacturing industry, and will make more resources available for exports with a beneficial effect to our balance of payments."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd May, 1966; Vol. 727, c. 1458–9.]
      The latter argument is no longer propounded by the Chancellor. Therefore, two of the three main reasons for the tax put forward in 1966 have been dropped.
      There can be little doubt that the tax is damaging and diabolic and is discredited in industry. It is a selective exploitation tax on taxpayers generally in one specific aspect of industry—[interruption]—
      The Deputy Chairman (Mr. Harry Gourlay): Order. There seems to be more than one Committee meeting taking place. Perhaps we could have some silence.
      Mr. Emery: I should like to emphasise one fact referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins). The drafting of the Money Resolution on S.E.T. this year has purposely limited the number of Amendments which could be tabled to try to alleviate the effects of the tax on certain sections of industry. The point of Amendment No. 61, which has not been called, but which can be debated on the Question, "That the Clause stand part"—
      The Deputy Chairman: Order. The hon. Gentleman must neither debate the Money Resolution nor the Amendment which has not been called.
      Mr. Emery: I accept that immediately, Mr. Gourlay. The Government have not allowed discussion of an Amendment which would have applied the tax to the tourist industry in September or October rather than from the due date in June.
      The Deputy Chairman: Order. The debate on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill" is similar to a
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      Third Reading debate. Hon. Members can discuss only that which is in the Clause and not something which they would like to be in the Clause.
      Mr. Emery: I am endeavouring to do that, Mr. Gourlay. Bookings have been made as much as 12 months in advance in the tourist industry. Hotel and boarding house keepers will have to pay the tax at a different level from that on which their lettings were based. This must be wrong.
      In other years we have been able to propose an alleviation of the situation in Amendments. But this year the Government have ensured that there could be no alleviation. By means of S.E.T. the Government are undoing what they proudly boast they are doing in the Committee on the Development of Tourism Bill. They are taking from the tourist industry another £10 million in S.E.T. and in the Committee on the Development of Tourism Bill are suggesting that they are giving £8 million to assist tourism generally.
      The argument for S.E.T. was that it would encourage exports. Cannot members of the Treasury Bench get it through their thick skulls that tourism is one of our biggest dollar and foreign currency earning industries? This year it will bring in about £270 million. Is not that what the Chancellor wants? Is not this the type of industrial activity which he should be doing everything to encourage? In Committee Room No. 11, this is what the Government say their left hand is doing. But in this Committee the right hand of the Chancellor is milking the industry to a greater extent than ever before. This fact must be hammered home.
      We should encourage tourism to maximise its foreign earnings and at the same time encourage people to take their holidays in this country rather than abroad. If that is what we are intending to do, the extra level of selective employment tax for this industry alone is so damaging that wherever the Chancellor goes he will be accused of paying no regard to the interests of the tourist industry. He does not have to take that from these benches. He can take it from the South-West Economic Development Council. The Council which was appointed by the Government, has said that S.E.T. is

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      detrimental to the development of tourism.
      There are a hundred and one other points that I could make, but many hon. Members wish to speak and, in fairness, I will deal only with the three points which I have made: first, the Chancellor has moved away from two of the main arguments used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1966; secondly, by the Money Resolution he has limited proper and full debate on selective employment tax; and, lastly, he is taking steps which are entirely detrimental to tourism throughout the country.
      Mr. Robert Maclennan: The hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) could find nothing good to say about the tax and for this reason he weakened his argument against it. This debate has fallen far short of other debates on this tax because of such sweeping and indiscriminate condemnation of the purpose and operation of the tax.
      The speech of the hon. Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) was, as we are accustomed to from him, extremely careful and it must be studied with care since it reveals the intentions of the Opposition with regard to the tax. He, choosing his words carefully, presumably, like the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod), informed us that a Conservative Government would remove the tax altogether when it had an opportunity to do so. These words are highly ambiguous and suggest that a wide door is being left open so that, in the unfortunate event of a Conservative Government being returned, it will be possible for the hon. Gentleman and his Friends to say that, because of the economic situation which they have inherited, the opportunity does not exist. The Opposition are putting forward an entirely fraudulent claim, to which the Committee should pay some attention, since the tax raises over £600 million, and we have had no clear evidence from the Opposition how the revenue is to be raised if not in this way.
      Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies (Isle of Thanet)rose—
      Mr. Maclennan: I will not give way to the Opposition on this point—
      Mr. Rees-Davies: The hon. Gentleman is completely wrong—
      Mr. Maclennan: If the hon. Gentleman's Friends wish to challenge this or to explain what they mean by it, I will gladly give way, but I am interested in the attitude to this tax of the official Opposition spokesmen.
      Mr. Rees-Davies Mr. Rees-Davies rose—
      The Deputy Chairman (Mr. Harry Couflay): Order. If the hon. Gentleman does not give way, the hon. Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) must remain seated.
      Mr. Maclennan Mr. Maclennan rose—
      Mr. Rees-Davies: I understand—
      The Deputy Chairman: Order. When the occupant of the Chair is on his feet, both hon. Gentlemen must sit down. If the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) does not seek to give way, the hon. Member for Thanet must not stand up.
      Mr. Rees-Davies: If I may put my point to him—
      The Deputy Chairman: Order. Mr. Maclennan.
      Mr. Maclennan: I have been waiting for the official Opposition spokesmen to intervene. It is typical that they take refuge in this manner.
      The hon. Member for Worthing attempted to answer before they were made the five points in defence of the tax which my right hon. Friend adumbrated. He did so not by confronting these arguments but by raising other objections. He did not deny that it was right to broaden the tax base, which has been put forward as a defence for the tax, but said that the tax was discriminatory. Any selective tax discriminates, this is inevitable. It is tautologous, and to say that the tax is discriminatory is saying nothing more than that it is selective.
      He said that it raises revenue, and he accepts that it is necessary to raise revenue; but he avoids saying how he would raise revenue. He says that the tax is cheap to collect and no counter criticism to this could be put forward by the hon. Member for Worthing. Nevertheless, a point of considerable importance, which is made frequently by his hon. Friends opposite, is that it must be a major purpose of the Government to seek

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      to cut down on the number of civil servants at every opportunity. Although this tax does this, we are not given the appropriate plaudits.
      The argument about the cost of living has been thoroughly gone into by my right hon. Friend and I do not propose to deal with it again, as it would be repetitious to do so.
      7.45 p.m.
      His final point was about the economies which the tax provided in the use of labour. Here I find myself more in sympathy and agreement with what he said. The tax had a purpose of transferring labour from the service industries to the manufacturing industries—this is admitted—and whether that was of prime or secondary concern is a matter of academic interest. What is clear is that, while productivity has substantially increased in the service industries, no appreciable increase in employment has occurred in the manufacturing industries.
      A further extremely unfortunate consequence of the tax is its effect on employment in areas which are heavily dependent upon the service industries. Representing as I do a part of the Highlands of Scotland, I am particularly concerned about this aspect. The artificial creation by fiscal means of a pool of unemployment is thoroughly unwelcome and works absolutely against the Government's policy of increasing employment in these areas through such means as it has established through the work of the Highlands and Islands Development Board.
      It is time the Government and the Chancellor gave further consideration, not to the alternatives which have been proposed on a flat poll tax across the board, which would hit every part of the country, not to the value-added tax which would have equally damaging effects in the Highlands, which is proposed by the Opposition, but to further regional variations of the S.E.T.
      This is one of the great innovations of this Government: we have looked to fiscal policy as a means of assisting the less developed parts of the country. This is an important weapon in our armoury in combating high levels of unemployment in the less prosperous parts of the country. The S.E.T. already discriminates in favour of parts of the country.
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      The hon. Member for Worthing seemed to think that there was something wrong with this. He said that it divided one part of a development area from another. I welcome that. It is only by making these divisions, by giving advantages to certain parts of the country, that we can possibly hope to increase the employment opportunities in these areas.
      We must go further than we have in discriminating in favour of these areas which are so heavily dependent on the service industries. We have not done all we might in the form of fiscal reliefs and incentives to encourage the establishment of manufacturing and other industries in such areas.
      The incidence of S.E.T. is heavy in the Highlands and it has had a number of damaging consequences of which I am aware. Since the introduction of the tax I have had representations made by hoteliers, until the Government responded to the pressures to ameliorate the situation in their favour, as well as from garage owners, laundries and all the other service industries in that area.
      I would take issue with an argument which was put earlier by my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Treasury, about the alleviations which the Government have introduced to help the tourist trade within certain parts of the development areas. The Government rightly decided to remove the tax from hotels in those areas but they did not seek to make similar alleviations for other industries which serve the tourists.
      The Deputy Chairman (Mr. Harry Gourlay): Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman is now developing his argument on Clause 44 rather than on Clause 43.
      Mr. Maclennan: I willingly confine my arguments to the general point. There is a strong case for treating all industries which serve the tourist trade in the same way in those parts of the development areas, like the Highlands, singled out for special relief, whether they be hotels, laundries, shops or garages.
      The Chief Secretary referred to those who have said that unemployment has been created as a result of the tax as Luddites. The position in the Highlands is highly special. The Government have acknowledged this by many measures.

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      They cannot leave out of account the possibility of using further fiscal differentiation to help the gross imbalance even within our Scottish economy.
      The weaknesses of the Opposition's case on S.E.T. has been their absence of an alternative. In so far as they have put forward any alternative, the value-added tax, they have failed to show the Committee how it would fall more lightly on those very industries about which they make the greatest song and dance. Although I am unhappy about the effect of the tax within my own Highland area, I have not the slightest doubt that, speaking for the country and the economy as a whole, the tax is absolutely justifiable.
      Mr. Alick Buchanan-Smith: I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan). I hope that what he has said and the line he has taken in the debate tonight will be noted in his part of Scotland. He realises the effect of the tax on his constituents, yet for the good of his constituency he is not prepared to carry his convictions forward by supporting us in the Lobby this evening.
      I do not intend to deal fully with what the hon. Member said, except to deal with his accusation that we on this side of the Committee have merely used general arguments. I shall put particular points to him, as have many of my hon. Friends, to show that we are not relying on general statements.
      I remind the hon. Member that S.E.T. takes out of Scotland every year a net sum of £45½ million. That is the extent of this iniquitous tax in Scotland. The increase in tax provided for in the Finance Bill will take out a further £12½ million. This is the burden which will fall upon Scotland.
      I support what my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) said about the effect of the tax on the cost of living. I have been in close touch with the co-operative society in my area and it has shown me figures as to how the tax affects the society and its members. I refer to the Northern Co-operative Society with a membership of 86,000, with 170 shops in the City of Aberdeen and in the Counties of Aberdeenshire and Kincardineshire. Prior to the increase in the Budget the cost of S.E.T. to that
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      co-operative society was £140,000 a year. This shows how costly the tax is to a large retail concern in my part of Scotland.
      The society told me that it has managed to meet some of the tax out of profits. Some of it has been put on to costs. That, of course, has raised the cost of living in that part of Scotland. Even if the society absorbs some of the cost of the tax and does not put it on prices, it reduces the amount paid in dividend to members of the society. Whichever way one looks at the tax, it affects consumers generally, and it particularly affects members of that particular co-operative society.
      I raised with the Minister of State the specific points raised by this co-operative society. The Minister answered me in a letter last summer, in which he set out three main objectives of this tax. I will go into them and try to show how the objectives of this tax are not being achieved in Scotland.
      The Minister of State in his letter said that one objective of the tax was to raise revenue without adding to the cost of manufacturing industry. What about the costs to the building industry and the costs to the transport industry? Every item that comes into our part of Scotland requires transport, including raw materials. Finished articles on their way out of Scotland require transport, as do the agriculture and fishing industries. It is therefore nonsense to say that the selective employment tax does not add to the cost of manufacturing industry.
      8.0 p.m.
      Second, the Minister of State said that the tax would improve the structure of the tax system by redressing the balance between services and manufacturing. However, I would remind him of the Scottish plan produced by his colleagues in the Scottish Office. That referred to the direct contribution to the development of Scotland's economy which the service industries could make; yet, here again, a great sector of employment and potential development in Scotland is being clobbered by the Government's action.
      Third, the Minister of State said that this tax should make more labour available for the expansion of manufacturing industry on which exports depend I appreciate that in the North-East of Scotland we have a number of firms with

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      very good export records, and I am sure that we wish them well. But where are all these exporting industries in the small villages and towns of the North-East of Scotland? Where does the Minister expect to see labour shaken out of the service industries into exporting industries?
      When I passed his letter on to the Northern Co-operative Society, it would not accept any of his points and thought that they were completely inapplicable to the situation in our part of Scotland.
      A letter from the Scottish Co-operative Wholesale Society says:
      "We believe that S.E.T. is a bad tax. It is undiscriminating in its effect and must result in increased prices for food and essentials. S.E.T. can only add to inflationary pressures which must affect the sections of the community least able to carry additional burdens."
      I turn briefly to one other point, and it relates to the building industry. The hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) spoke about this with great feeling. I am sorry that he is not in his place at the moment. We are grateful to him for raising a number of points, though the Chancellor did not answer any of them. The reason why he did not answer them is that he could not. The building and construction industry of Scotland finds itself saddled with another £5 million as a result of this increase in S.E.T. at a time when we have a drive for new housing and the improvement and replacement of old houses.
      This increase has no relevance to the economy of Scotland, whether one has in mind the remoter areas which are dependant on service industries or the industrial areas. When one considers the effect on the cost of living and on building costs, to take only two examples, it is hitting against the development of the economy of Scotland. For that reason, I am opposed to, and continue to oppose, the tax and any further increases proposed by the Government.
      Mr. Tony Gardner: I will not follow the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith), since he was concerned with the problem of Scotland, except to say as a mere Englishman that he should bear in mind the considerable subsidy which English taxpayers can be shown to make to their counterparts in Scotland. The hon. Gentleman quotes the figures of taxation
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      taken out of Scotland. However, he should relate them to the share of social and other services gained by Scotland at the expense of those of us south of the Border.
      Nor do I want to follow the passions of the hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery), who waxed eloquent about the effects of the selective employment tax on tourism. It is strange that the hon. Gentleman should make this impassioned speech at a time when we have just received a report by an independent tourist body showing that London, at any rate, is one of the cheapest tourist cities in the world. Taking an average hotel in London, despite swingeing increases in taxation, our prices are still among the lowest in Europe.
      It is customary to declare an interest, and I ought to declare mine. My hon. Friends who are Co-operative Members, have been taunted by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. Although I am not a Co-operative Member, for about seven years I worked for the Co-operative Union and learned a little about the problems of retail distribution and serving consumers. I only wish that the Treasury contained more people with experience in retail distribution. If it did, I am sure that selective employment tax in its present form would never have been introduced.
      We have been taunted about the way in which we shall exercise our votes this evening. Certainly I shall not support right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, and I am prepared to give my reason. It is that, once again, they are engaged in their usual exercise of complaining about every increase in taxation during the passage of the Finance Bill and, for the rest of the year, making demands on the Government to spend more in the interests of their constituents. That is fair enough. But hon. Gentlemen who do it consistently cannot complain if hon. Members on these benches do not support them.
      I listened to the speech of my right hon. Friend with great care, but he did not wholly convince me. Very many people have tried to elicit criteria by which one should judge whether the tax is worth while. I do not like consumer taxes, because I believe that there is still a vast area of untapped direct taxation, which is unquestionably fair. If we

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      are to have consumer taxation—and it may be that this is the climate of public opinion—there are a number of criteria rather similar to, though not quite the same as, those suggested by the Chancellor.
      The first criterion for any tax is whether it raises revenue efficiently. I do not think that anyone will deny that this is the case with selective employment tax. It is very much more efficient than other forms of consumer taxes.
      The second criterion is whether it is increasingly productive. Again, that is generally true of S.E.T. If one seeks to put a burden of taxation on services, one is seeking to tax an area where personal expenditure is increasing all the time. However, that is not true of the services as a whole. It is true of a vast range of them, but it is not true, for example, about food and fuel distribution. I think that the figures will show that, while spending on food and fuel continues to rise, the share of personal income spent on those services goes down relatively every year. On that basis, the tax imposed on food and fuel distribution is not likely to be increasingly productive.
      The third criterion is whether it is likely to bring about increasing efficiency. Since a substantial amount of the tax is absorbed, it must create greater efficiency. But the extent to which this operates depends upon the degree of inefficiency existing in the service industry which is being taxed and the margins which it has to absorb greater efficiency. It is true of some aspects of distribution. In some services, there is, first, increasing spending, secondly, a great deal of inefficiency and, thirdly, very substantial profit margins. That is not true of food distribution. In the last 10 or 15 years, there has been a revolution in food distribution with the result that, in many areas, gross retail margins are now so low that they hardly meet the labour costs involved, so that there is no room for manœuvre and, inevitably, prices rise.
      The fourth criterion is perhaps the most important of all. It is whether the tax bears most heavily on those who have the greatest ability to pay. Again, the reasons given by my right hon. Friend the present Home Secretary in introducing selective employment tax are generally true. On the whole, the services are demanded more by more wealthy
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      people. But it is not true of certain of them. It is not true of food distribution, and certainly it is not true of those who require special services because, for example, they are old or happen to live in remote areas.
      Incidentally, these are usually the poorest people of the community, so the effect of selective employment tax, if it impinges heavily on food distribution, has the result of impinging heavily on those least able to pay. Therefore, many of us have argued—I appreciate we cannot go into these things—that the Chancellor should look not at S.E.T. as a whole, but at the way that it operates in particular circumstances. If he wants alternatives—he mentioned this during his contribution earlier—we can suggest them.
      There are certainly areas in services—I will not bore the Committee by reading them out—where the profit margins are very high, where expenditure is growing all the time, and where, by no stretch of the imagination, are they consumed by the poorest people in the community.
      We can look at the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer). I have never yet heard a decent argument against having selective employment tax imposed on the self-employed. The Chancellor in reply to a Written Question from me, told us that this would net an additional £75 million to the revenue. That would give my right hon. Friend a great deal of room for manœuvre in exempting other things.
      Finally, I accept the argument put forward by some hon. Members on both sides that it does not necessarily follow that it makes industry more efficient by making labour cheap. Therefore, I suggest that in this general review, which we hope the Chancellor will make, he will look again at the possibility of a moderate overall payroll tax which would overcome many of the problems and criticisms which have been raised today. Although he needs the revenue, I hope that my right hon. Friend will look seriously again at the way that selective employment tax is operating, and that he or his spokesman will give an assurance tonight that, before the Finance Bill is completed, he will have a serious look at the effects of S.E.T. and perhaps come forward with some proposal for change.
      Mr. Paul Hawkins: I should like first to consider the effect of this tax on a rural constituency namely, Norfolk, South-West. This high taxation, of which S.E.T. is one part, seems to be a belief of Socialism. What hon. Gentlemen opposite do not seem to realise is that we have to create greater wealth in the country. We will not need so much taxation if we can create wealth. This seems to be wholly against the principles of Socialism. The ghost of Sir Stafford Cripps seems to be sitting on the Government Front Bench all through the debate.
      Selective employment tax is definitely a tax on food. It hits the farmer, because he has to lend money to the Government. It is a tremendous burden on transport, on shop workers, and on wholesalers. Because the housewife today goes out to work far more than the housewife of 20 to 30 years ago, she wants greater services. She wants the goods delivered to her door, because she has not the time to go out and get them herself. But delivery costs are hit by this iniquitous tax. It is a tax on the countryside. It suffers far more than anywhere else, because the population of the countryside, including hotels, relies far more on the distributive service trades.
      I have had many complaints about the distribution of milk in my constituency. The distributive costs on a rural round outside a market town have now got so high that they are adding to the cost of the milk, yet the distributor is not allowed to charge more.
      8.15 p.m.
      The elderly and disabled are hit by this tax. Many elderly people who have been doing a useful job have been paid off by firms because of this tax. The firms have to take on fully able-bodied men to do the jobs if they are paying this proportion of tax out of the wages. It is a most unfair tax because it creates hardship on certain sections of the community.
      I have never yet understood how selective employment tax can be added to the building industry. A building firm has to pay S.E.T. on every man that it employs building houses. The building societies, which do the financing, have to pay selective employment tax. Estate agents—and here I declare an interest—have to pay selective employment tax on
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      their staff, as do the lawyers and solicitors who do the conveyancing work.
      I turn now to hotels and restaurants. This is a tax upon the person who, as we learned from the Chancellor today, demands more service. In a highly civilised country, such as ours, service industries are becoming more and more important. People want to get out occasionally and enjoy a meal. If they are harried in this way by this sort of Government, which seems to delight in taxing them and making life miserable for them, they will not be able to enjoy a meal out, because S.E.T. has added to the cost of that enjoyment. It means that they can go out less.
      Professional men and women, office workers, small shopkeepers and many others have been badly hit by this tax. A survey of about 70 firms, each employing over 20 people, was undertaken in my constituency three months ago. We do not have many large firms. There is one famous firm which builds tractors and containers, but most of the firms are quite small, being engaged in light industry. About 50 firms replied. They were asked several questions.
      First,
      "Has it caused an increase in price?"
      Thirty said "Yes"; 18 said "No".
      Secondly,
      "If you recover S.E.T. or get it paid to you, do you think you have recruited labour from employers who do not?"
      The answer was: "Yes", 3; "No", 35.
      Thirdly,
      "Do you think it has caused labour movements from non-productive to productive work in your area?"
      Answer: "Yes", 5; "No", 37.
      Fourthly,
      "Do you believe it has had an inflationary influence on trade by locking up cash which could otherwise be used for trade purposes?"
      Answer: "Yes", 44; "No", 4.
      Finally,
      "Has the imposition of S.E.T. caused your firm to require increased bank overdraft either to pay the tax or finance the three months borrowing period?"
      Answer: "Yes", 32; "No", 11.
      This proves that this tax is not doing what the Chancellor expected it to do. It has added costs to manufactured articles in many cases because of the

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      distributive costs of transport and otherwise. It has meant that workers have not been driven from non-productive industries, as they are called, into the productive industries. The tax is a great mistake, like everything else that this Government touch.
      Mr. W. T. Williams: Ever since selective employment tax was introduced I have been an avowed opponent of it, as have those of my hon. Friends who are members, as I am, of the Co-operative Party.
      Mr. MacArthur: Which Lobby?
      Mr. Williams: The Government, therefore, will not be surprised to learn that the increase in selective employment tax wins no support from us. On the other hand, do not subscribe to the doctrine that S.E.T. raises any great issue of principle when it comes to taxation. We are not opposed to a selective employment tax as such. We are opposed to this one; and the reason for that is that this tax fails, on the one side, in that it is not selective enough, and, on the other, in that it is too selective.
      Many years ago I learned that the via media was a snare and a delusion. This is true of this tax. In the first place it is too selective, in the sense that it makes a total distinction between manufacturing and service industries, in a way that does little more than further distort the economy. The Government have made it part of their case that the services in this country have been too lightly taxed in comparison with manufactured goods. In that "light taxation of services" they include distribution services.
      That seems to me to be little more than political sophistry. The reality is that all forms of indirect taxation, either wholly or for the greater part, are always passed on to the consumer. For that reason it is the bounden duty of any Government, when they impose indirect taxation, and especially new indirect taxation, to have regard to the social consequences of that taxation. When one looks at a tax which declares itself to be selective and concerned about particular aspects of employment, it seems that the Government are mistaken to believe that they can include in it categories of employment which
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      by their very nature are wholly different and lump them together as though they were the same.
      Our criticism of the tax in its present form is that it is a blunt, indiscriminate tax which makes no attempt to differentiate between what is socially desirable and what is socially undesirable. Indeed, it makes no attempt, even within different aspects of goods and services, to differentiate between what is of value and what is not. Unless the Government are saying—and the Chancellor said again this evening that they are not—that goods are good and services are bad, it seems that the Government have been too lax, too unready to differentiate between what is regressive in this tax and what is progressive in it.
      If the Government were to do what I think is essential with a tax of this kind—namely, distinguish between what are pure services and what are really no more than an extension of manufacture—they would not fall into the trap into which they have fallen, and for which they have earned such bitter opposition on these benches.
      There are on the one hand, pure services: lawyers, accountants, hairdressers, and people of that kind contribute a pure service, often of end products which are not otherwise taxed. These people, offering a pure service, can properly be expected to make a contribution to the general taxation through SET, and no criticisms can be made of the imposition of that taxation. In the context of such services, people who are engaged in them, whether as self-employed persons or as employing other persons, need have no distinction drawn between them. I have never understood why it is regarded as somehow an essential part of this tax that self-employed persons shall escape from it altogether.
      On the other hand, when one considers the position of those persons engaged in what is really a continuation of the manufacturing process—that is in the distribution of goods, and especially essential goods—the Government must be under an obligation to ensure that taxation where it is imposed, is imposed on those who are best able to bear it. It ought not to be spread across the board, as S.E.T. is in its present structure.

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      In the light of that, I find myself in disagreement with the Chancellor when he talks about this tax being less regressive than purchase tax. From the point of view of its ability to impose the taxation at the point at which it can most usefully and properly be borne, purchase tax is to be preferred to a tax of this kind if only because it directs its tax to particular goods.
      By the present use of S.E.T. the cost of living is increased because it increases the cost of basic foods and fuels. Hitherto this has been an area of need which successive Governments have avoided taxing as far as it has been in their power to do so. Until this tax was introduced, the sale of untaxed goods amounted to about £8,370 million. Of that figure, more than £5,000 million represented foodstuffs, and £1,000 million was taken up in the provision of fuels of various kinds. The criticism of S.E.T. however, in its present form is that it does not apply only to people who are distributing non essential goods. A person who works in a grocer's shop or provides necessary foodstuffs for people is subject to S.E.T. in the same way as a girl who sells expensive tobaccos or expensive perfumes.
      Our criticism of S.E.T., then, is not directed against it where it hits the pure services to which I have referred and which are profitable in themselves. When it applies to those dealing with commodities with which the poorest sections of the community are not concerned, it does not earn our condemnation. We criticise S.E.T. because of the way in which pure services have been confused in its application with distributive services, the latter being really a part of the chain of the production process. It is because the Government persist in this confusion that we persist in criticism of S.E.T.
      We feel justified in urging the Government even now quickly to end this fallacy in the theoretical basis of S.E.T. and to ensure, even though it results in an increase in the tax that must be placed on the pure services of which I have spoken, that relief is given to those services which form part of the distributive process of essential goods.
      8.30 p.m.
      Mr. Iain Macleod: I intend to be extremely brief. We have had an excellent
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      debate, perhaps the best that we have had on this subject in the three years during which we have been discussing S.E.T.
      With the exception of half a speech, every speech has been devoted to tearing this tax to pieces. The exception in what the Committee regarded, I believe rightly, as a pathetic contribution came from the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) who, halfway through his speech in support of the Government, realised that he represented a Highland constituency, and then did his best to reconcile the two contradictory positions. With that solitary exception of half a speech, every speech has been devoted to the destruction of S.E.T.
      Individual Amendments to the tax are virtually out of order because of the way in which the Budget Resolution has been drawn. I protest over this, and I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will take this seriously should this point arise again. This procedure has become a sort of childish game between the Treasury and the House of Commons, and I should have thought that both sides of the Committee had something better to do. The net result of this procedure is that instead of speaking to individual Amendments, points are made in a diffuse debate on the Question, That the Clause stand part of the Bill, so that no time is saved and a great deal of inconvenience is caused. I trust, therefore, that the Chancellor will consider the wording of the Resolution. Although we have had fun trying to get round the Resolution in the recent past, we have reached the point when it would be as well if Parliament could debate these matters in the ordinary way.
      The attitude of the Conservative Party towards S.E.T. has always been clear. We intend to abolish it as soon as we can. There are no "ifs" and "buts" about that position, and there never have been. Nor do we intend to replace it with an employment tax. However, we are conscious, as a responsible party, of the vast size of the revenue that is collected from S.E.T.—now more than £600 million—and I have therefore always made it clear, as the Chancellor will acknowledge, that we are giving deep study to the value-added tax. When we are ready to make a pronouncement one way or another on that, we will make it. There is no dubiety about our position, and we shall, in due course, put it forward in detail, but

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      with respect, working to our timetable rather than to that of the Labour Party.
      From the first moment when S.E.T. was announced one began to see flaws in it I recall how it emerged. It came right at the end of the Budget, in which the Chancellor had gone out of his way to say that he needed a considerable amount of money—I think it was £220 million in the year in question—and he ruled out all the recognised methods. One knew, therefore, that something completely fresh was coming. It came, in the last few moments of his speech.
      The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the position of agriculture and said that he intended to recoup S.E.T. through the Annual Price Review. I remember distinctly turning to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and saying, "That simply will not work." It is obvious that it could not work, because we cannot recompense an individual farmer through the national Price Review. Within a few hours my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir A. V. Harvey) was making that point in debate, and in a very short time the position in respect of agriculture was conceded.
      So it has been for the last three years on all these issues, including that of charities. Every Amendment which has been made has first been put forward by the Opposition, or sometimes by the Liberal Party, has been opposed from the Treasury Bench and in due course has found its way into the Finance Bill of a subsequent year as an Amendment.
      I said that I should be brief, for I hope that we can soon move to a Division. In our view it is a tax founded completely on wrong principles. It is not even being collected sensibly. The work is farmed out to half-a-dozen different Departments. The origin of the discrimination was the industrial classification, which I remember having responsibility for drawing up in 1958 when I was Minister of Labour. I have not the slightest doubt that as an exercise in statistics it made a good deal of sense then and that, revised, it makes a good deal of sense today, but as an exercise in discrimination in taxation it was an absurdity then and it is an absurdity today. The examples have grown and multiplied over the years.
      One or two of my hon. Friends appealed to those who support co-operative
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      interests to vote on this Clause. I make no such appeal to them. This is a matter for them. As someone who has had the very great honour of being a Leader of the House, I well recognise the difficult position they are in. But when the hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt), whom we respect so much on these matters, says that the whole Clause is unacceptable, I simply do not understand how he can reconcile that with an abstention, which I gather is the most that he contemplates. In what I thought was an extremely good speech, the hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Gardner) sought to avoid the dilemma by saying that they did not like the proposition which the Opposition put forward—perhaps more simply, that they do not like the possibility of a Conservative Government. But I remind the Committee that when we divide the Question will be put, That Clause 43 stand part of the Bill. That is the only issue before the Committee. It may comfort the consciences of hon. Members to pretend that some other issue, such as the value-added tax, or whatever it may be, is before the Committee. The day will come no doubt when such an issue is before the House. But the one and sole issue on which we vote tonight is whether Clause 43 should stand part of the Bill. Clause 43 embodies in it the whole of the most hated tax in fiscal history. Our position on it is absolutely clear: we long to get rid of it, we shall get rid of it as soon as we can, and we shall take the opportunity of again voting against it tonight.
      Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
      The Deputy-Chairman: Order. I thought that the Committee wished to come to a conclusion.
      Hon. Members: No.
      The Deputy-Chairman: Very well. Mr. Ednyfed Hudson Davies.
      Mr. Ednyfed Hudson Davies: I should like to give my reasons why I cannot give my support to the Clause as it stands. I should however point out that my objection is not to a tax on services in principle. I see clearly that in any advanced and sophisticated economy there is a tendency for services of all kinds to develop out of proportion to manufacturing activities.

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      If manufactured goods were to be taxed in an economy and services were allowed to remain tax free an imbalance would in time develop. Most European economies have a tax on services. Consequently I think that the introduction of this tax in principle in the first place fulfilled an important function. It would be to the long-term harm particularly of our balance of payments situation that there should be a tendency to growth in the service sector as against the manufacturing and strictly productive sector of industry.
      I have given on a previous occasion, and shall not repeat them, figures relating to taxes on services in other countries. I am fully convinced that the Conservative alternative of a value-added tax—were we to get the full details of how such a tax would operate, which we have not done—would turn out to be far more of the removal of the name "selective employment tax" than of the principle of the taxation of services.
      I see the Chancellor's predicament. In a situation where he wanted to draw out of the consumer demand of our society and was faced with the alternatives of increases in purchase tax or direct taxation, there was a very strong case for him to make this increase. However, in certain sectors, particularly in retail distribution, this tax has been beneficial—although one could perhaps attribute the increase in productivity in retail trades to changes which were anyway taking place in those sectors.
      My objection, consequently, is not to the principle of such a tax but to the fact that it has not been selective enough, that certain kinds of areas and certain kinds of industries have not been graded in respect of the particular form of taxation. I am concerned about the area of my constituency in North Wales where the difficulty is that a very high proportion of the activity which takes place is in the service sector. In that context it means very little indeed to talk of the form of taxation which would perhaps lead to greater productivity in the service sector and release employment for manufacturing opportunities. This facet of the tax has been disregarded very largely, but in that kind of area it could not have operated in that way because there were
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      not the opportunities into which people could move if they were displaced from service activities.
      I am concerned about areas, and more particularly about certain kinds of services in areas of that kind. My main concern is for a particular industry in my constituency, the tourist industry. There are two problems here. One is that this is a service activity of a highly seasonal nature. I should be less concerned if I could look at hotels in my constituency and see that they were busy throughout the year. My worry is that for well over seven months of the year the activity which takes place there is minimal.
      Hoteliers in that constituency are in a situation in which they find that they have to employ staff if they can get hold of good staff and keep them throughout the winter, not only paying selective employment tax but having to pay this additional taxation for employees whom they do not need throughout the winter because they must keep them or they will not be able to get them back when the next season comes.
      Mr. Iain Macleod: Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that there is an Amendment dealing with hotels which has been selected and on which his observations would be precisely in order?
      [Sir BERESFORD CRADDOCK in the Chair]
      8.45 p.m.
      Mr. Davies: Yes. However, I am following points which have already been made by colleagues of the right hon. Gentleman and I intend to touch on those points briefly. Hotel tariffs were fixed before the announcement of this proposed increase, and, although the costs of hoteliers will rise as a result of the increase, hoteliers are committed to the prices they have fixed. These increases increase a differential within certain areas. I am particularly concerned about a town such as Llandudno which is outside a development area. Exemptions have been made to certain hotels within development areas.
      The Temporary Chairman (Sir Beresford Craddock): Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but he is going far too wide of the debate on the Question, That the Clause stand part of the Bill. He must keep his remarks

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      much narrower than they are at the moment.
      Mr. Davies: I apologise, Sir Beresford, if I am going outside the ambit of the debate. I want to point out briefly that I am concerned about the anomalies within and outside development areas. I will not pursue that point further.
      I want now to make a general point. This is why, although I shall not be able to support the Government tonight, I shall not be able to support the Opposition either. I want to quote a brief and relevant passage from a debate which took place on 27th February. It relates to tourism, but the point is a general one. The hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. Gordon Campbell) was asked this question by my hon. Friend the Member for Merioneth (Mr. William Edwards):
      "Could the hon. Gentleman assure us that should the hotel industry have a sales tax imposed on it"—
      that is, by the Opposition should they come to power—
      "which would be far more iniquitous and difficult to administer in areas which now get relief from S.E.T., it would get relief from the imposition of a sales tax?"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1969; Vol. 778, c. 1956.]
      The Temporary Chairman: Order. Again I am sorry to interrupt, but there is a later Amendment on this point. I must ask the hon. Gentleman to return to the Question before the Committee.
      Mr. Davies: I accept that, Sir Beresford. As I sit down I merely point out that, following that question, there was a discussion between the occupant of the Chair and the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph). No answer was forthcoming. Hence, although in the interests of my constituency I shall not be able to support the Clause tonight, because I believe that there is no alternative I shall not be able to support the Opposition either.
      Mr. H. P. G. Channon: To save the time of the Committee, I shall not comment on the speech of the hon. Member for Conway (Mr. Ednyfed Hudson Davies), which could have been made on another occasion. Unfortunately, owing to the tightness of the drafting of the Resolution the few remarks I wish to make cannot be made on another occasion. The fact that I
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      shall be brief tonight does not mean that I could not have said more or that I do not mean these remarks sincerely. I hope that the Treasury Bench will take note of what I say.
      I want to draw attention to the very serious effect the imposition of S.E.T. will have on the commercial theatre, a question which has not been mentioned in the debate but about which there has been much publicity outside Parliament. Even arguing on the basis that there should be a selective employment tax, it is wrong to class the commercial theatre as a service. It can be a manufacturing activity of the highest order.
      To consider the practical aspect of the tax on the subsidised theatre, paying the selective employment tax and then having to reclaim it costs hundreds of pounds in bank interest. I leave that aside, because the serious aspect is the burden the commercial theatre has to face in view of the imposition of this tax and the large increase which is now proposed. The real difficulty is this. The commercial theatre is in competition with the subsidised theatre. I know that many Members support the idea of a subsidised theatre but it is bound to create competition with the commercial theatre. For the commercial theatre to be penalised in addition by the selective employment tax seems to me to be the final straw.
      There are serious worries about the future of the commercial theatre not only in London but also in the provinces. I could quote a list of many commercial theatres in the provinces—I will not do so—which have had to be closed down in recent years. An Arts Council inquiry is at the moment examining the future of the commercial theatre about which, as I say, there is grave worry.
      On the most prosaic grounds—including the enormous amount of foreign currency which comes into London as a result of the operation of the commercial theatre—this tax should be carefully examined. It is estimated that in one theatre alone 75 per cent. of the audience are tourists, and even in January, which is not in the tourist season, the figure is as high as 25 per cent. There is a danger that it may not be possible to put on productions which earn many millions of dollars in film rights and by being transferred to Broadway.

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      Since the war there has been this serious threat to the commercial theatre. In one typical theatre where a reasonably successful play is being produced at the moment, the selective employment tax costs £200 a week and it will be infinitely more when the new rates are imposed. If something is not done soon to help the commercial theatre the risks will be far too great and the commercial theatre both outside and in London will be seriously threatened. There are very few other industries—the theatre is one—where the subsidised area does not have to pay selective employment tax.
      I hope the Government will seriously consider this case, which I could have amplified, on the grounds of practical value, bearing in mind the foreign currency which is being brought into the country and the fact that the commercial theatre is a living entity which should be preserved.
      Mr. Palmer: I appreciate that the Committee is anxious to come to a conclusion and I shall not be too long, but I have been present from the beginning of the debate and I have heard practically every previous speech. I therefore intend to exercise my rights so long as I am in order.
      I realise that many hon. Members think that it is not easy to squeeze out yet another critical speech on this topic. I listened very carefully to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I thought that, as one would expect, he made a very able speech in defence of a bad case. He argued that no tax is popular, that there were arguments against all taxes including the selective employment tax, but on balance he thought that at the moment the argument was rather in favour of the selective empuloyment tax. I think that states his argument fairly.
      I do not entirely agree with my right hon. Friend about taxes and their acceptability in a modern setting. It may be true of very primitive societies that they detest the tax collector—I believe that was true even of St. Matthew—but in modern sophisticated societies it is surely at least accepted that if society is to carry on there must be a measure of taxation and that on occasions that taxation may even be high. For instance,
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      I should have thought that most people today expect that there will be income tax because it is socially just apart from much else besides. Most people also accept today that with high personal consumption we must have a measure of purchase tax.
      The trouble about S.E.T. is that it is undoubtedly universally detested. It has certainly been detested on both sides of the Committee this afternoon. I do not think that any one will ever love this tax, poor creature, or take it to his bosom.
      Its effect on the Co-operative movement, which reflects a desirable social principle, has been deplorable. This is largely because the Co-operative movement concentrates on giving a service rather than making a profit in the accepted sense. If it is giving a service, such as distributing milk in rural areas, it cannot withdraw that service. It can only reduce it.
      This fact has been reflected in the financial position of the movement. Since the introduction of S.E.T. the dividend distribution has fallen by 25 per cent. It is a harsh thing for me, as a supporter of the present Government, to say, but I do not think that the Co-operative movement has ever been taxed so heavily as it is now. I cannot believe that the heavy additional burden of taxation which has been placed on the Cooperative movement and distributive services generally can be right or socially desirable.
      My right hon. Friend, the Chancellor, gave us the history of how S.E.T. came into being and the justifications for it. He said it was primarily to raise revenue and an attempt to redistribute labour within industry—which has not been conspicuously successful. But if hon. Members think back to 1966 they will recall that it was a time when the new, more deflationary policies of the Government were started. The Government were searching then for a relatively painless but effective, as they thought, way of taking excess purchasing power out of the economy and removing an excessive inflationary tendency, without resorting to the old orthodox methods.
      I suggest, in the light of experience, that it has been an interesting experiment, but it has not worked out well and in

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      the meantime it has undoubtedly done the Government great political harm. I hope that in due course they will recognise their mistake and change their policy over this tax.
      The right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) very neatly and decently tried to tempt some of us on this side of the Committee into the Opposition Lobby tonight. I would answer him by referring to the earlier speech of his hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall), who boldly suggested that it was in the national interest—rather pompous words in the context in which he used them—that we should go into the Lobby with the Conservatives. I and my hon. Friends who share my point of view dislike the tax intensely. We have given many arguments why, and, therefore, why we cannot support the Government on the Clause. But we do not believe that it would be in the national interest for us to vote with the Conservatives and in that way help them to power. The distinction in our behaviour is well understood in the Committee and has many precedents. If we abstain tonight rather than vote in the Opposition Lobby it is because we have the long-term national interest in mind and work for change in policy and not for the Government's defeat.
      9.0 p.m.
      Mr. Burden: I have been a Member of the House of Commons for 18 years and have never before heard such wholehearted and widespread condemnation of any proposal put forward in a Finance Bill. The Chancellor, while he has been present, has listened to a condemnation of the Clause from both sides. Only one hon. Member opposite has even teetered on the edge of supporting the Clause and S.E.T. generally but when he realised the effect his speech would have on his constituency relations if he spoke wholeheartedly for it, he withdrew very hastily. Thus, not one speech has been made from the benches opposite in support of S.E.T.
      The Chancellor must have had some doubt about the tax to have referred it to Professor Reddaway for report. If he had such fears, or if he was uncertain, why did he make this increase? Why did he not await the Reddaway Report? It was probably because he was fearful of the replies which Professor Reddaway had received to a questionnaire he sent
      346
      out and decided that he had better get in with his increase before they were published.
      I do not understand the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this matter. One would have thought that he would know what the effect of the tax would be and what the reaction would be from the distributive trades. For some years he was adviser to one of the biggest retail groups of stores in the country. If he had asked its opinion, I am sure that it would have told him firmly not to go ahead with it.
      Why is there such reaction? It is because we are not dealing with chickenfeed but with £613 million in taxation. That is what S.E.T. means. It is idle for the Government to say that it will all be absorbed by trade and industry and will not put up prices. They know that it will put up prices, and this year not only is S.E.T. being increased but also purchase tax.
      The Home Secretary, when he introduced S.E.T., said that one of the chief aims was to ensure that people left the distributive trades for manufacturing industries. Unemployment in the manufacturing industries in the Midlands is increasing substantially and because of S.E.T. the distributive trades are not only unable to retain their present level of employment, but cannot take up some of the slack in employment being created by the manufacturing industries.
      I wonder why the Chancellor has not done another exercise, which would be very useful. Why has he not made an inquiry among the retail trade generally to find out just how profitable it is? If he were to make a study of this he would find that employers in the retail trade are lucky if they get a return of more than £200 net per annum on each employee. This present increase in S.E.T. alone means that £26 of that £200 will be taken away. These close margins of profit, cut further as the result of S.E.T., will make it impossible for employers in the distributive industries to improve the lot of their employees.
      The Government are taking more and more away from them. Many will not only be unable to improve the conditions and wages of their employees as prices rise; price rises deliberately created by the Government, but they will be unable even to keep them on their payroll. Not only will the tax raise the cost of living

      347
      generally and depress the standard of living of people in the distributive industries, but it will also make it impossible for many employers in those industries to increase the wages of their employees as prices rise, and it will also add more to unemployment which is already growing as a result of other Measures that the Government have introduced. I believe that the Government are coming to an end much sooner than hon. Members believe.
      Mr. Hugh Jenkins: My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Palmer) described the tax as an unlovable one. Very few taxes are loved. I do not know of any form of taxation which people really take to. Accepting the fact that we have to have taxation in modern society, direct taxation is preferable to indirect taxation in my opinion. I also recognise that a number of people do not think this and on the whole accept indirect taxation more easily than direct taxation.
      Sir W. Bromley-Davenport: On a point of order. Sir Beresford. Is it not tedious repetition to talk about no one loving taxes? Everybody knows that. Cannot the hon. Member wash these bromides out of his speech and talk some sense?
      Mr. Jenkins: The hon. Gentleman has merely lengthened my speech—
      Sir W. Bromley-Davenport: The hon. Gentleman is a bore.
      Mr. Jenkins: The hon. Gentleman is using a description that most of us would think applied to him. Perhaps he would allow me to say what I have to say, which is of interest—more than can be said of his contributions.
      Mr. William Price: Go to the bar.
      Hon. Members: He is going.
      Mr. Jenkins: Now that we have been relieved of our comedian perhaps I can get on. If we accept it as a form of indirect taxation, I am not among those who say that S.E.T. is an undesirable form of taxation. If it is true—and I think that it is to some extent—that there has been little support in principle for the Government on this side of the Committee, it will be a pleasant
      348
      surprise for them to have some support, if critical support, from a slightly unusual source. The tax does not seem to me to be especially offensive. The value-added tax proposed by the Opposition would be very much more objectionable than S.E.T.
      The trouble with S.E.T. is that it is insufficiently selective. The Government have not taken the opportunity to avail themselves of the discrimination which it affords and use it in favour of, say, the socially desirable Co-operative movement. They have not taken advantage of the possibility of removing the tax from the theatre. The hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon) spoke about the commercial theatre as distinct from the supported theatre.
      I wish to make a suggestion to my hon. Friends on the Front Bench. In considering the future of this tax, cannot they be sufficiently selective to say that they will continue the tax on the profitable West End theatre but relieve the theatre outside the West End of it? If my right hon. and hon. Friends chose, they could do that. It would be possible to introduce on Report an Amendment to take the tax off the commercial theatre outside London. I recommend that course to them.
      Sir Fitzroy Maclean: My excuse for intervening briefly at this late stage is that I believe that the Scottish point of view should be well and truly hammered home. We have heard only two speeches from Scottish Members—the excellent speech of my hon. Friend the Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) and the speech of the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan), the two parts of which neatly cancelled each other out.
      If the Government had wished to find a means of hitting Scotland hard, it would have been difficult for them to find a more effective instrument than S.E.T. It represents one of those decisions from Whitehall which show total ignorance of conditions and feeling in Scotland and give gratuitous ammunition to the separatists. It is surprising that the hon. Lady the Member for Hamilton (Mrs. Ewing) should have graced our proceedings for only about three and a half minutes. She arrived wearing a hat which would have done credit to a Tory

      349
      women's conference and then went away. She must be as out of touch with feeling in Scotland as are the Government.
      It has been said again and again that Scotland is heavily dependent on the service industries. In the Highlands, only one man in ten is employed in manufacturing industry. Although I did not think much of his speech, the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland, as a Highland Member, must either be very brave or have the death wish politically to take the line he did. In Scotland as a whole, about 50 per cent. of the employed men and women are employed in service industries. Because of this, S.E.T. adds yet another handicap to our existing handicaps of remoteness, difficult communications, and so on; and in Scotland, as elsewhere, S.E.T. drives up the cost of living. As one hon. Member said, it is the housewife who pays.
      9.15 p.m.
      Hon. Members on both sides have dwelt at length on the demerits of S.E.T. Its basic fault, in my opinion, is its attempt to discriminate against the so-called service industries. It has been called purely arbitrary. The right hon. and learned Member for Ipswich (Sir Dingle Foot) called it capricious in its operation. All this is true. What it leaves out of account is that manufacturing industries often contribute precious little to the economy, and are extremely wasteful of labour. It is ridiculous that a factory making bubble gum or playing cards should have all the advantages under the scheme, whereas service industries, many of which make an important contribution to the economy and would make an even bigger contribution if they were given the chance, are simply clobbered. Instead of trying to help them, the Government hit them as hard as they can.
      It is becoming increasingly evident that the inadequacy of many necessary services is beginning to represent a serious
      weakness in our economy. The hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt) asked "Since when has 'service' become a dirty word?" It is perfectly true that it has become a dirty word, and the Government must take responsibility for this.
      The aims of this iniquitous tax have been discussed at length, Some claim that its primary aim is to raise revenue; others that it is to redistribute labour, to shift it from one part of the country to another. One thing is certain. It cannot do both. If it succeeded in the second aim of putting all available labour into manufacturing industries, it would raise no revenue, and the measure of how little it has succeded in doing that is that it raises £600 million a year.
      There is no better illustration of the disastrous effect of the tax than the hotel industry. It suffers from a 20 per cent. shortage of skilled staff, a 46,000 shortfall out of a total of 250,000. One cannot shift labour from the hotel industry because it is already short of labour, and so the industry is faced with a choice between increasing its charges or reducing its service. This can only depress and discourage an industry which is one of our biggest and most important dollar earners.
      We on our side have fought this tax from the first, and I am glad to say that we are committed to abolishing it. The present administration, we hope, will not be in office for much longer. Selective employment tax has already done much harm but it could do more harm still even in the short time remaining before the next election. I know that it is hopeless to ask the Chancellor to abolish his Department's favourite tax, but at least we can ask him not to increase it by 28 per cent.
      Question put, That the Clause stand part of the Bill:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 263, Noes 234.

      Division No. 224.]

      AYES

      [9.20 p.m.

      Albu, Austen

      Beaney, Alan

      Bradley, Tom

      Alldritt, Walter

      Bence, Cyril

      Bray, Dr. Jeremy

      Anderson, Donald

      Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

      Brooks, Edwin

      Archer, Peter

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper)

      Ashley, Jack

      Binns, John

      Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

      Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw)

      Bishop, E. S.

      Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

      Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.)

      Blackburn, F.

      Brown, R. W. (Shoreditch & F'bury)

      Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Buchan, Norman

      Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

      Booth, Albert

      Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

      Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

      Barnett, Joel

      Boyden, James

      Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

      Cant, R. B.

      Hoy, James

      Orbach, Maurice

      Carmichael, Neil

      Huckfield, Leslie

      Orme, Stanley

      Carter-Jones, Lewis

      Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

      Oswald, Thomas

      Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

      Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

      Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)

      Chapman, Donald

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

      Coe, Denis

      Hunter, Adam

      Parker, John (Dagenham)

      Coleman, Donald

      Hynd, John

      Parkin, Ben (Paddington, N.)

      Corbet, Mrs. Freda

      Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

      Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Janner, Sir Barnett

      Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

      Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

      Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

      Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Jeger, George (Goole)

      Pentland, Norman

      Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)

      Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S)

      Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

      Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

      Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)

      Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

      Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

      Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek)

      Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

      Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

      Price, William (Rugby)

      de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Probert, Arthur

      Delargy, Hugh

      Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

      Rankin, John

      Dempsey, James

      Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

      Rees, Merlyn

      Dewar, Donald

      Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West)

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Diamond, Rt Hn. John

      Judd, Frank

      Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy

      Dickens, James

      Kelley, Richard

      Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

      Dobson Ray

      Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Doig, Peter

      Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

      Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St. P'c'as)

      Dunn, James A.

      Lawson, George

      Rodgers, William (Stockton)

      Dunnett, Jack

      Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton)

      Roebuck, Roy

      Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

      Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock)

      Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

      Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

      Lestor, Miss Joan

      Rose, Paul

      Eadie, Alex

      Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

      Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

      Edwards, William (Merioneth)

      Lever, L. M, (Ardwick)

      Sheldon, Robert

      Ellis, John

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Shinwell, Rt. Hn. E.

      English, Michael

      Lipton, Marcus

      Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

      Ennals, David

      Lomas, Kenneth

      Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

      Ensor, David

      Loughlin, Charles

      Silverman, Julius

      Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

      Luard, Evan

      Skeffington, Arthur

      Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)

      Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

      Slater, Joseph

      Faulds, Andrew

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

      Small, William

      Fernyhough, E.

      Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

      Snow, Julian

      Finch, Harold

      McBride, Neil

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

      MacColl, James

      Steele, Thomas (Dunbartonshire, W.)

      Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir Eric (Islington, E.)

      Macdonald, A. H.

      Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael

      Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

      McGuire, Michael

      Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Mckay, Mrs. Margaret

      Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

      Foley, Maurice

      Mackenzie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

      Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

      Ford, Ben

      Mackie, John

      Taverne, Dick

      Forrester, John

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Thomas, Rt. Hn. George

      Fowler, Gerry

      Maclennan, Robert

      Thomson, Rt. Hn. George

      Fraser, John (Norwood)

      MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

      Thornton, Ernest

      Fressson, Reginald

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

      Tinn, James

      Galpern, Sir Myer

      McNamara, J. Kevin

      Tomney, Frank

      Gardner, Tony

      MacPherson, Malcolm

      Tuck, Raphael

      Garrett, W. E.

      Mahon, Peter (Preston, S.)

      Urwin, T. W.

      Ginsburg, David

      Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

      Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

      Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

      Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

      Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Gregory, Arnold

      Manuel, Archie

      Wallace, George

      Grey, Charles (Durham)

      Mapp, Charles

      Watkins, David (Consett)

      Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

      Marks, Kenneth

      Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)

      Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

      Marquand, David

      Weitzman, David

      Griffiths, Rt. Hn. James (Llanelly)

      Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Wellbeloved, James

      Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

      Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

      Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

      Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J.

      Maxwell, Robert

      Whitaker, Ben

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Mayhew, Christopher

      White, Mrs. Eirene

      Hamling William

      Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Wilkins, W. A.

      Hannan, William

      Mendelson, John

      Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Millan, Bruce

      Williams, Alan (Swansea. W.)

      Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

      Miller, Dr. M. S.

      Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)

      Hattersley, Roy

      Milne, Edward (Blyth)

      Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)

      Hazell, Bert

      Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)

      Williams, Mrs. Shilley (Hitchin)

      Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

      Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

      Willis, Rt. Hn. George

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

      Henig, Stanley

      Morris, John (Aberavon)

      Winnick, David

      Herbison, Rt. Hn. Margaret

      Moyle, Roland

      Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

      Hobden, Dennis

      Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Woof, Robert

      Hooley, Frank

      Neal, Harold

      Horner, John

      Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Oakes, Gordon

      Mr. Ernest G. Perry and

      Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

      Ogden, Eric

      Mr. Joseph Harper.

      Howie, W.

      Oram, Albert E.

      352

      353

      NOES

      Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

      Goodhew, Victor

      Nabarro, Sir Gerald

      Allason, Jabes (Hemel Hempstead)

      Gower, Raymond

      Neave, Airey

      Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

      Grant, Anthony

      Nicholls, Sir Harmar

      Astor, John

      Grant-Ferris, R.

      Nott, John

      Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n)

      Gresham Cooke, R.

      Onslow, Cranley

      Awdry, Daniel

      Grieve, Percy

      Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

      Baker, Kenneth (Acton)

      Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

      Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian

      Baker, W, H. K. (Banff)

      Gurden, Harold

      Osborn, John (Hallam)

      Balniel, Lord

      Hall, John (Wycombe)

      Osborne, Sir Cyril (Louth)

      Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      Page, Graham (Crosby)

      Batsford, Brian

      Hamilton, Lord (Fermanagh)

      Page, John (Harrow, W.)

      Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Pardoe, John

      Bell, Ronald

      Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N. W.)

      Peel, John

      Bennett, Sir Freredic (Torquay)

      Harris, Reader (Heston)

      Percival, Ian

      Bennett, Dr. Regonald (Glos. & Fhm)

      Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

      Peyton, John

      Berry, Hn. Anthony

      Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

      Pike, Miss Mervyn

      Bessell, Peter

      Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

      Pounder, Rafton

      Biffen, John

      Harvie Anderson, Miss

      Price, David (Eastleigh)

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Hawkins, Paul

      Pym, Francis

      Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

      Hay, John

      Quennell, Miss J. M.

      Black, Sir Cyril

      Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

      Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

      Blaker, Peter

      Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

      Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)

      Heseltine, Michael

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Body, Richard

      Higgins, Terence L.

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

      Hiley, Joseph

      Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

      Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

      Hill, J. E. B.

      Ridsdale, Julian

      Braine, Bernard

      Hogg, Rt. Hn. Quintin

      Robson Brown, Sir William

      Brewis, John

      Holland, Philip

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Brinton, Sir Tatton

      Hooson, Emlyn

      Royle, Anthony

      Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

      Hordern, Peter

      Russell, Sir Ronald

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Hornby, Richard

      St. John-Stevas, Norman

      Bruce-Gardyne, J.

      Hunt, John

      Sandys, Rt. Hn. D.

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M)

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Scott, Nicholas

      Buck, Antony (Colchester)

      Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

      Scott-Hopkins, James

      Bullus, Sir Eric

      Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

      Sharples, Richard

      Burden, F. A.

      Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

      Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

      Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.)

      Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

      Silvester, Frederick

      Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

      Carlisle, Mark

      Jopling, Michael

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Channon, H. P. G.

      Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

      Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

      Chichester-Clark, R.

      Kaberry, Sir Donald

      Smith, John (London & W'minster)

      Clark, Henry

      Kerby, Capt, Henry

      Speed, Keith

      Clegg, Walter

      Kershaw, Anthony

      Stainton, Keith

      Cooke, Robert

      King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

      Steel, David (Roxburgh)

      Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

      Kirk, Peter

      Stodart, Anthony

      Cordle, John

      Kitson, Timothy

      Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

      Corfield, F. v.

      Knight, Mrs. Jill

      Summers, Sir Spencer

      Costain, A. P.

      Lambton, Viscount

      Tapsell, Peter

      Crouch, David

      Lancaster, Col. C. G.

      Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

      Crowder, F. P.

      Lane, David

      Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

      Cunningham, Sir Knox

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

      Currie, G. B. H.

      Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'n C'dfield)

      Temple, John M.

      Dalkeith, Earl of

      Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

      Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

      Dance, James

      Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

      Tilney, John

      d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

      Longden, Gilbert

      Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

      Dean, Paul

      Lubbock, Eric

      Van Straubenzee, W. R.

      Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

      McAdden, Sir Stephen

      Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John

      Digby, Simon Wingfield

      MacArthur, Ian

      Vickers, Dame Joan

      Dodds-Paker, Douglas

      Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

      Waddington, David

      Doughty, Charles

      Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

      Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)

      Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

      McMaster, Stanley

      Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

      Drayson, G. B,

      Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

      Wall, Patrick

      du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

      McNair-Wilson, Michael (W'stow, E.)

      Walters, Dennis

      Eden, Sir John

      McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

      Ward, Dame Irene

      Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

      Maddan, Martin

      Weatherill, Bernard

      Emery, Peter

      Maginnis, John E.

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Errington, Sir Eric

      Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

      Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

      Evans, Gwynfor (C'marthen)

      Maude, Angus

      Wiggin, A. W.

      Ewing, Mrs. Winifred

      Mawby, Ray

      Williams, Donald (Dudley)

      Eyre, Reginald

      Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

      Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

      Farr, John

      Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

      Wolrige-Gordon, Patrick

      Fisher, Nigel

      Mills, Peter (Torrington)

      Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Fortescue, Tim

      Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

      Woodnutt, Mark

      Foster, Sir John

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Worsley, Marcus

      Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

      Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

      Wright, Esmond

      Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

      Monro, Hector

      Younger, Hn. George

      Glover, Sir Douglas

      Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

      Glyn, Sir Richard

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

      Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

      Mr. R. W. Elliott and

      Goodhart, Philip

      Murton, Oscar

      Mr. Jasper More.

      Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

    Clause 44

      SELECTIVE EMPLOYMENT PAYMENTS
      Mr. John Biffen: I beg to move Amendment No. 109, in page 63, line 1, leave out subsection 5.
      The Committee has just spent rather more than five hours deciding that it will, unhappily, continue selective employment tax. I hope in a much briefer period that it will be possible for the Committee at least to minimise some of the harsh and arbitrary character of that tax on account of the moderate, but well-founded, case that I hope to put to the Financial Secretary.
      The Amendment deals with S.E.T. continuing to apply to dairy roundsmen, as it will no longer apply to those engaged in milk processing. The Committee will recall that milk processing was originally not classified as a manufacturing industry under the Standard Industrial Classification. Therefore, those employed in milk processing were subject to the full rigours of the tax. The Government, after representation from both sides of the Committee, recognised the folly of that situation, and the Standard Industrial Classification for 1968 reclassified milk processing as a manufacturing industry. Clause 44(3) gives statutory effect to that welcome decision, but unhappily subsection (5) excludes the retail nature of milk processing establishments from the new provisions concerning S.E.T., the consequence of which is that dairy roundsmen will still bear this tax.
      I base my argument—an argument which I hope will at least obtain from the Financial Secretary a willingness to reconsider this and to hold out some hope that it will be dealt with on Report—on three major propositions. First, this is an arbitrary decision. It is precisely the kind of decision which underlines the harsh and unfair working of this piece of legislation and this particular tax.
      Transport activities at the manufacturing point generally qualify for a refund. If the Chancellor were here listening to this debate—and I make no complaint about his absence; he has been here for a good deal of the day—I would
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      remind him that in his own city of Birmingham one of the slogans which adorns the hoardings is that "Beer at home means Davenports", and although the Chancellor in his Budget speech affirmed a strong personal predilection for wine, from time to time he may share the more robust working-class tipple of his constituents, and he might reflect that no S.E.T. is charged on those who deliver beer.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) is not in his place, but I have cleared with him that I might make this reference. My hon. Friend is a robust teetotaller, and on a Saturday morning he might pay the milkman, the baker, and whoever delivers the soft drinks. No S.E.T. will have been charged in respect of the person who delivers the soft drinks, or the baker, but unless my Amendment is carried S.E.T. will be levied in respect of the milkman. It is this kind of discrimination which I feel should bring even the Band of Hope on to the street.
      My second point is that this is an Amendment and a point of view which I believe has the general support of the Co-operative movement. I am glad to have confirmation of that from the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Rhodes). I do not want to delve into the murky depths of the internal politics of the Labour Party, but we have just had a debate which concluded with a very interesting Government majority. I want to encourage the Co-operative Members that little step further. If they will indicate their support for this modest Amendment—and I do not think that even the Prime Minister could say that this was a major constitutional issue on which the Government would resign—and indicate—
      The Temporary Chairman (Sir Beresford Craddock): Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but there is an undercurrent of noise. I shall be grateful if hon. Members will allow the Chair and also our friends in the Press Gallery to hear what the hon. Member is saying.
      Mr. Biffen: I was just encouraging hon. Gentlemen opposite from the Co-operative Party to take their demonstration of independence one stage further

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      and indicate their preparedness to join my hon. Friends and myself in the Lobby on this issue should the Financial Secretary's answer prove so obdurate as perhaps almost to challenge us to put the matter to a Division. I hope that we may rely on their encouragement because they could result in a satisfactory answer being given.
      The next proposition I make in support of the Amendment is that we are seeing a further example of Government by dereliction. Whereas S.E.T. is levied on milk roundsmen, because the milk industry is a costed industry—because a great deal of the cost is reimbursed to the dairy roundsmen, so to speak—the tax is eventually reflected in the higher price of milk. Indeed, I understand that about 90 per cent. of S.E.T. is eventually included in the measured cost and that the other 10 per cent. is included in the target margin, to use the jargon of the milk distributive trade.
      We have witnessed endless examples of the Government handing out money with the right hand to compensate for what they have taken with the left. The Amendment offers them a chance for a late repentance so that the Treasury may ameliorate this evil and relieve the nation a little from the burdens which the Government have inflicted in generous measure through their discriminatory tax system. I have put moderate and compelling arguments with brevity which will, I hope, receive the cheerful acquiescence of the Government.
      Mr. W. T. Williams: When discussing an earlier Clause I urged the Government to come to terms with the use of the word "services" in its separate sense. A number of my hon. Friends and I believe that they have fallen into the trap of including in the use of that word things that belong to the completion of the manufacturing process.
      We were seeking earlier to make a special plea for the Government to consider how S.E.T. should be applied, and in that plea we urged them to distinguish distributive services from—and, therefore, treat them differently from—what I called pure services. In discussing the Amendment we come to the view I took in my earlier remarks, this time applying to milk distribution and the increase of taxation on milk roundsmen, to which
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      we are opposed and in respect of which we seek concessions from the Government.
      Under the 1958 S.I.C. list, milk processing was not regarded as a manufacturing industry. Thus, under the Selective Payments Act, 1966 milk processing did not qualify for either premium or refund. Not unnaturally, protests were made by the trade about this. Some remedy was given by the issue of the 1968 Standard Industrial Classification. In that, milk processing was reclassified as a manufacturing activity, and Clause 34(3) of the Finance Bill gives statutory effect to that classification. Let it never be said that we are not grateful for small mercies. I take this opportunity of expressing our thanks to the Government for the change which seems to us eminently reasonable and, as far as it goes, satisfactory.
      9.45 p.m.
      However, in the same Clause—subsection (5)—the Government, having given with one left hand, take away with another left hand. Subsection (5) seeks to exclude the transport activities of retail milk distribution from the processing establishments—to take away the distributive sector from the processing sector. The effect of that subsection will be that the increase in tax will be imposed on milk roundsmen. The practical effect will be that a tax which has already been found almost too onerous to bear will become finally unbearable.
      The profit margin on retail milk distribution is already strictly limited by Government order. Milk distributors are not able, under present legislation, to recover any of the increased cost, except under the Ministry of Food costing system, which provides that a milk distributor is allowed 90 per cent. of the cost of S.E.T. as an item of cost and is permitted to recover it by grant from the Ministry of Agriculture. The remaining 10 per cent. is deemed to be included in a target margin. We understand—I hope that the Minister of State in his reply will confirm that this is so—that under the same provision it will be possible for 90 per cent. of the increased cost of S.E.T. to be recovered.
      But that does not meet the problems with which milk distributors are faced. That is especially true in areas where milk distribution is more difficult than

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      normal. Here I express my own personal interest, although by now it is well known in the House. In particular this imposition bears unduly onerously upon the Co-operative movement. The position generally is bad, but for the co-operatives it is particularly bad because, generally speaking, the larger milk distributors, other than the co-operatives, work from large centres, and the co-operatives and the self-employed milk distributors have almost a monopoly of the more difficult areas such as country areas, small villages and inaccessible places. Generally speaking, the large distributors do not go there. They leave it to the co-operatives, who do it as a service, or to the self-employed individual, who does not pay S.E.T. It must be clear that for milk distributors generally, and even more with those who have to deal with the more difficult areas of distribution, this is the last straw that could break the camel's back.
      Profit margins are restricted, albeit with the increased allowance accompanying increased S.E.T. because the margins are so low and cannot be increased, but this is not a free market and the Government regard it as an essential service to be properly controlled. Unless some relief is given to milk roundsmen the inevitable consequence must be that in the more difficult areas, and possibly in many more areas, distribution of milk will be brought to an end. Then people will have to go to shops and dairies to buy milk.
      The social cost is bound to be considerable and social resentment is bound to be considerable. One is always tempted when making speeches in this House to quote the infirm, the old, the widowed, and the orphaned, but it is the case that there are large numbers of people who because of one kind of infirmity or another would find it very difficult indeed to collect their milk supplies and who for many years have been accustomed to the daily, or alternate day, visit from the milkman.
      I hope I speak temperately about this. The Government do not appear sufficiently to have had regard to the social consequences of this piece of legislation. They have done this for what appears to us to be insufficient return. Various figures have been quoted as the price
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      which the Government would have to pay for making a concession on S.E.T. to milk roundsmen. We have heard from official sources that the amount would be between £7 million and £8 million. Unofficial statistics suggest that it would be nearer £5½ million, bearing in mind the proportion—a small proportion—of people who are self-employed milk roundsmen. When in addition it is realised that part at least of milk distribution would end it would appear that £7½ million is very much on the high side. The benefit which the Government might enjoy from the increase from this source would be considerably less than they expect.
      Already 90 per cent. of the cost of S.E.T. in the form of which I have spoken finds its way back to the milk distributing industry. This makes the position foolish. The Government are taking the tax with one hand and giving 90 per cent. back with the other. In the process, to balance their books in the long-term, they will have to increase the cost of milk and allow an increase in the margins. If the argument were taken no further than that of social desirability and social cost, it should be sufficient to persuade the Government, if they are open to persuasion, that this is an undesirable tax.
      There are other arguments. First, under the normal rules governing S.E.T., transport activities, either at the manufacturing point or from an outside transport depot, normally qualify for the refund of tax. In a food manufacturing industry which produces a perishable commodity, the practice has been that transport from the manufacturing centre to the point of retail sale has been allowed for refund of S.E.T. It is this which explains the fact that bread, confectionery and soft drink roundsmen, ice cream vendors, and deliverers of beers and ales qualify for refund of S.E.T. in respect of all their transport activities. For a reason which it is difficult for me to understand, the transport of bottled milk to customers has been specifically excluded from the provision of subsection (5).
      We on these benches have always taken the view—I hope that the pun is not too unendurable at this time of night—that milk is a sacred cow. Governments—this Government not least among

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      them—have always taken the view that it needed the control of Government to ensure that the people were fed this nourishing food of milk, which is possibly one of the most necessary of all foods and which is distributed to hospitals and to schools as well as to homes. It is, therefore, all the more inexplicable that the Government have gone out of their way to impose a tax on milk roundsmen which they do not impose upon people engaged in virtually the same activity.
      Mr. Buchanan-Smith: Will the hon. and learned Gentleman also mention the important point that milk is delivered in the early hours of the morning? Therefore, by virtue of the time of delivery, the milk delivery service helps to lessen congestion on the roads at later hours, and for this reason, even more than in the manner he has suggested, is a real service to the community in a way which other services is not.
      Mr. Williams: The hon. Gentleman has made the point better than I could, so I give him the point.
      These are potent arguments which should open the door for the Government if they are disposed to do what we hope they will do and put milk roundsmen on all fours with those who already enjoy this privilege. We believe that the argument advanced by the Treasury that to remove the tax would be to take revenue from the Government is met by the contention that the Government could, by granting this concession, save themselves the increase of 90 per cent. on the costings margin.
      [Mr. SYDNEY IRVING in the Chair]
      10.0 p.m.
      In the light of the strong feeling which now exists and the social need that we believe this activity meets, will the Government please give an undertaking that they will look at this matter again? We in the Co-operative group did not put down an Amendment on this Clause or put our names to the Amendments moved by the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen). This was in the hope—dare I say in the belief?—that the Government, having heard these arguments not only from myself but from others, will look at the matter again and
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      see whether it is possible, even at this late date, to undo what we believe to be a harmful piece of legislation and give us the concession for which we are asking.
      What we are asking for are nothing more than the normal rules affecting the selective employment tax regarding, manufacturing industries, and since the Government have gone so far as to apply to milk processors the position—one might say the legal fiction—of being manufacturers, they should allow the milk roundsmen also the same concession as they have allowed to transport establishments belonging to these other industries which are in the same category.
      Mr. Peter Mills: I support the Amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen). I support, too, the Milk Distributive Council which represents the milk industry, including the Co-operative movement. They are all opposed to Clause 44, and rightly so. There is no question that it is quite wrong, and we have a very strong case here. The Milk Distributive Council is a large body of people doing a very important job in the interests of the consumer. They are all united in their feeling that this provision is grossly unfair.
      It is interesting to notice that the Co-operative movement is annoyed about this provision and is opposed to it. I only hope that the Co-operative Members will support us in the Lobby later, for this matter cuts right across party. This provision is grossly unfair to the milk distribution industry, and it is particularly ridiculous that at this time the industry should be selected to take further punishment. The margin of profit enjoyed by this industry is very small indeed, and the increased burden of selective employment tax is both wrong and unfair. If this extra burden is coupled with all the burdens with which the industry is already trying to cope, much of it a direct result of this Government's activities, it can only result in considerable hardship to the firms concerned, and eventually the consumer will suffer.
      The industry supplies a service to the public which is the envy of the world. What other nation has its milk delivered in little bottles on the people's doorsteps seven times a week? It is a great industry, distributing 1,460 million gallons of milk

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      a year, and it is nonsense to impose further burdens on it. The cost of S.E.T. is apparently £10,790,000, and there is to be a further burden of £2,360,000. The industry is already absorbing many of the costs directly resulting from Government action, and it is ridiculous for it to have to bear this further burden.
      The Minister may put forward many arguments tonight. He may say that the transport of bottled milk direct to consumers is essentially just retail distribution. I do not think it is. I do not see why he should discriminate against the milk industry and milk itself as a product.
      It is ridiculous that bread, confectionery, soft drinks and ice cream all qualify as manufacturers, and their producers receive a refund of S.E.T. for all their transport activities, when milk does not. Why discriminate against the milk industry? I put milk at the top of my list of priorities. What nonsense it is to put it after confectionery, soft drinks, pop, and all the other things! Milk is the basic food of life. It is what is given to young children at the start of their lives, and it is what one needs throughout life. How can it be considered less important than soft drinks, ice cream and confectionery? I agree that bread is vitally important.
      The Minister will have to have a good argument to convince me that he is right in seeking to impose this burden on the industry. He could argue that it will be an additional cost to the Exchequer. We have heard how much of the burden passes from one Government Department to another.
      It could be that the Government are seeking to reduce the number of employees in the industry. This would be very stupid. Having delivered milk as a roundsman in my early days, I know that the milk roundsman has an essential part to play. He has no time to spare, and his productivity record is pretty good. If the Government intend to reduce the number of employees in the industry by imposing the tax, they should think again.
      This burden will undoubtedly lead to hardship to the dairy industry and the consumer in the end. Profit margins are very small, and any extra burden will be very serious. In some areas, particularly rural areas and small towns which do
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      not have a large number of consumers, the additional burden could mean the withdrawal of distribution services. This would be very serious not only to the consumers but to the dairy industry as a whole. It would mean less milk being sold, and less money for agriculture and the dairy farmer in particular. The farmer would get a lower pool price. It is a chain reaction that could go on and on.
      I hope that the Minister will take the Amendment seriously and be able to explain satisfactorily why the Government are pursuing this policy in spite of all that the trade has said, and all that we are saying tonight. I hope that he will present us with a pretty good argument as to why he should put milk, that priceless asset to both young and old, at the bottom of his list of priorities and put pop and other soft drinks before it.
      This is a serious problem which has serious consequences to the industry. Some hon. Members may feel that we are making a mountain out of a molehill but that is not so. This straw could do untold damage to the industry. I hope that the Minister of State will reconsider the Government's attitude, otherwise I fear the consequences to this very great industry, which is providing a wholesome, clean and first-class product to the consumers.
      Mr. Pavitt: The speeches of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Warrington (Mr. W. T. Williams), the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) and the hon. Member for Torrington (Mr. Peter Mills) were full of information, logic and understanding of the technicalities which many of us are not so familiar with. They have made an incontrovertible case for the Amendment, and if I resist the blandishments of the hon. Member for Oswestry with as much force as I resisted those of the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro) earlier, I assure him that it involves no question of my being unsympathetic to the case.
      Both our words and our actions in this Committee are designed to achieve a set purpose. The job of the Opposition is to oppose the Government. The purpose of my hon. and learned Friend and myself is to try to persuade the Government to a different course of action. What I am doing is part and parcel of that process,

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      and the action I take will, I hope, maximise the amount of impact. It does not destroy the case put by my hon. and learned Friend and the two hon. Members opposite. My hon. and learned Friend marshalled the facts so succinctly and clearly that the Committee is spared the necessity for me to remarshal them.
      The hon. Member for Torrington pointed out the problem involving bread. Perhaps I may argue illogically to the Government. Why not make an exceptional case of bread and milk? Why not recognise that these two staple commodities are exceptions in that they are basic to life and the needs of humanity? Why not, therefore, say "We shall make an exception of them. We are not seeking Treasury logicality step by step because there may be the possibility of creating a precedent."?
      One of the greatest barriers to common sense in legislation is the idea of precedent—where one does not move one fraction off a given line in case a precedent is established. Bread and milk are so vital—and we are proud of the fact that, in this country, they are cheaper than anywhere else in Europe because our bakers and milkmen have done such a good job—that, instead of merely praising our bakers and milkmen when the cold weather comes and we see them pushing their floats through drifts of snow in Devonshire and Scotland, we should give them practical assistance. Let us recognise their worth-while job and decide that they should not bear this new impost of S.E.T.
      10.15 p.m.
      My hon. and learned Friend and the two hon. Members opposite have made a case for the old, the sick, the isolated. I go further. My right hon. Friend is seeking to get more and more production, which means more and more people in work and more and more female labour both in the services and distributive trades and in the production of goods. The whole pattern of life has changed since the last war. More and more women are in work. These women need the necessary supporting services so that they can look after their families and do the housekeeping. If there is to be an additional burden on the ordinary woman trying to do a job of work and to supplement the family income in that she does not know
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      whether there will be enough milk for the children, then this is against all the ideas of redeployment of labour originally put forward for the introduction of S.E.T.
      I would like the Minister of State to consider my arithmetic. As far as I can see, the Treasury figures of £7 million would represent 56,000 workers. Of that number 4,500 get refunds from concessions and there are another 4,500 self-employed. This leaves 47,000 workers, which is £5·8 million. When I examined the Milk Distributive Council's figures I find £5,625,000 for 45,000 workers, with 4,500 getting refunds. There are 4,500 self-employed, which brings us down not to £7 million but to £4,500,000. It is inconceivable that with all the wide variations in the Budget this £4,500,000 is so vital to the economy that a concession could not be made.
      There is an opportunity here to show a little bit of commonsense, a little less rigidity. If the Government will reconsider this between now and Report, not only will it be a sign of their flexibility, but it will help to make their colleagues more flexible later. Without any threat of a question or promise, I plead with my hon. and learned Friend to look at this thoroughly in the hope that he can make these concessions, the case for which was so ably pleaded, on behalf of us all, by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Warrington.
      Mr. Geoffrey Rhodes: What we are discussing is one of the consequences of the difficulties and anomalies arising out of the original legislation, which was so full of potential anomalies. When I speak to ordinary people in my constituency, those who work in distribution and those who do not, people in my local Co-operative movement, in my local Labour Party, they ask the simple question, which has never really been answered: why is it not possible to exempt from this burden the distribution of what we regard as a basic necessity of life?
      In the past, through the regional employment premium or in other ways, we have subsidised or exempted the manufacturers of dog foods, beer, lemonade and a whole range of even less essential goods, goods which we thought the Prime Minister might be referring to when he talked about the candyfloss of our society,

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      which were not basic to the needs of the community and should be dispensed with. This arises because of what I feel is, on the part of the Treasury, a thoroughly artificial discrimination between manufacturing and service trades.
      It shows a lack of understanding of what a service industry really is. When milk has been processed and bottled it is not distributed to the retail service trades, but goes direct from the manufacturer to the consumer. The White Paper dealing with this tax spoke about the idea of a shake-up, striking at the soft under-belly of our economy, bringing more into the essential trades. I find it difficult to envisage the milk distributors of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East, being shaken up by this legislation and flooding down in their thousands to work in the shipyards and the turbine generator producing plant in my constituency. It is too ludicrous for words.
      In no sense can it be argued that the original objectives of this tax will be met by the Government's refusal to give way on this Amendment. We know the difficulty: this tax has become an easy way of raising revenue regardless of the social consequences. This levy on milk distribution, like many other aspects of the distribution of foodstuffs, is a penalty on the people's food and the consequent withdrawal of services which the Co-operative movement will be forced to undertake in the more remote areas which are often uneconomic but are provided as a service will be a great social loss.
      This tax, which is levied in this case at the point of need with no reference to ability to pay, is devoid of any social principle and, it might be said, devoid of any Socialist fiscal principle. Those of us in the North who are aware that the per capita consumption of milk is markedly less in that part than in any other region—and some medical practitioners are distinctly worried about this—cannot view with any great joy the increased cost of distribution of this commodity which will arise as a result of the Government's failure to give way on this point.
      Co-operative Members have been challenged time and again over the last few years by hon. Members opposite to say why, when we abstain even on votes of confidence in the Government, which
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      I understand most Co-operative Members will be doing tonight, we do not go a stage further. It will not have escaped the notice of the Opposition Whips that in the last Division there was a very narrow Government majority. They do not need miraculous mathematicians to work out that, given the strength of the support which the Co-operative Members have gathered in their persistent campaign over the last few years against this tax, it would be possible to defeat the Government.
      We do not wish to defeat the Government on this measure, and I will say why. As a delegate to the Council of Europe, I spend a great deal of time on the European Continent where they do not have a selective employment tax. Many European countries have a tax value added, which is precisely the policy of the Opposition Front Bench. If they got into power after the defeat of this Government they would introduce tax value added legislation which would have a far more disastrous effect on the price of milk and food—
      Mr. Eldon Griffiths indicated dissent.
      Mr. Rhodes: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but he knows, as he often goes with me to Europe, how costly milk distribution and foodstuffs are on the Continent compared with the situation in this country. The Opposition's agricultural policy would have a far more disastrous effect on the cost of milk to the people about whom I am talking than even the unfortunate measure which the Government have brought forward tonight. This is why I shall not be tempted to support them; their alternative is far worse.
      Mr. Biffen: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman and myself are both awaiting with pleasurable anticipation the sort of reply which will render a vote totally unnecessary. However, would he agree that, while it might be possible to take a vote on selective employment tax as one of confidence, it is stretching credibility beyond reason to suggest that this narrow Amendment can be treated as an issue of confidence?
      Mr. Rhodes: That is a matter of judgment for the Government Whips. I am trying to be reasonable and not to make

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      cheap party political capital against the Government. When the Government decide on a line of policy in principle, namely, to tax what they regard as the soft under-belly of the service trades, they have every right to pursue their policy and to request and demand the support of Labour back-bench Members. When the back-benchers, who know more about the distributive trades from their experience than the Government Front Bench, cannot accept that theory and the practical anomalies, they reserve the right occasionally not to support their Government. But if hon. Members opposite are saying that this issue is big enough for Co-operative Members of Parliament to seek to bring the Government down, their understanding of politics is much less than I give them credit for.
      Mr. Eldon Griffiths: I will detain the Committee for no more than two minutes. I have a constituency matter arising from this point which I must put to the Chancellor lest it be thought that only hon. Members opposite recognise the problems of the Co-operative Wholesale Society. In one of the many villages of West Suffolk the C.W.S. supply, very well, a small milk round. When selective employment tax was first imposed it became necessary for the Haverhill Co-operative Society to cease to deliver milk to many elderly people in the small village of Assington Green in the Middle of Suffolk, and elderly men and women, some of them in their eighties, during the winter months found themselves no longer able to be supplied with milk at their cottage doors. They had to go long distances to collect their milk and very often had to tramp through the snow, for there are no bus services now that the Government have increased the cost of petrol for the local bus operator.
      I want to put it very simply to the Chancellor in the two minutes I have vouchsafed myself that if he is not willing to make this small concession that is being sought from both sides of the Committee, then I and other hon. Members on both sides who represent remote agricultural constituencies will have coming to them many more of their constituents who live in cut-off hamlets who will not be receiving either from the C.W.S. or from other milk distributors the milk that they need. This is a concession which the Government could reasonably make
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      without driving a coach and horses through their policy, and the Chancellor would do himself and his Government a power of good if he would now advise his hon. Friend to say that this is reasonable, the Government are persuaded and will make the concession.
      10.30 p.m.
      The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Dick Taverne): Before coming to the particular points and questions that have been raised I will make a general comment. Although it may not have been immediately apparent from some of the speeches, this debate arises from a concession made on S.E.T. The Clause arises out of the agreement by the Government to give effect to the new 1968 Standard Industrial Classification and to make milk processing equivalent to manufacturing. When it was agreed to do this, it was made clear to the Milk Distributive Council that it was not intended to extend the concession to milk roundsmen. The concession extends to the delivery of milk in bulk and to shops, but it was never envisaged that it would extend to milk roundsmen. Those who go round from consumer to consumer selling milk are salesmen, and fall squarely within the service sector of industry. It was envisaged that the trade as a whole should be treated broadly in line with the trade of manufacturers generally.
      I was asked about the position of the allowance of part of the increase in the costings. I can tell my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Warrington (Mr. W. T. Williams) that discussions are now going on with the Ministry of Agriculture and the Milk Distributive Council about the adjustments to be made to milk distributors' margins in the light of various cost changes, including the increase in S.E.T. It is hoped that these will come to a conclusion very shortly.
      On the face of it, there is a lot of force in the point about the anomaly which exists compared with the bread roundsman and the soft drink roundsman, though the hon. Member for Torrington (Mr. Peter Mills) is wrong about ice cream and confectionery. It is true that the bread roundsman and the soft drink roundsman escape the tax, but the explanation for the anomaly is a simple one. The bread roundsman and the soft drink roundsman make deliveries to shops. They

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      are not selling and, therefore, they are transport workers. It is true that a minority make deliveries for only part of their time and spend some time selling. In the case of the minority, they are engaged in activities similar to those of milk roundsmen. But the logical resolution of the anomaly in the case of those who are selling would be that they should be treated as salesmen, though, naturally, this is not a resolution of the anomaly which those concerned would welcome.
      A point which has been stressed is the hardship that this would cause in rural areas and how far it would affect the distribution of milk which is, when it is carried out by the Co-op in those areas, in every sense a service, in that the profit involved is negligible and, in some cases, non-existent. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Warrington made a moving speech on the subject. It is recognised that this is an extremely valuable service, and certainly the Government would like to help if it is possible.
      However, there are considerable difficulties in proceeding on the lines suggested by some of my hon. Friends. One would get into appalling difficulties if one tried to grade services according to whether they were worth while, and imposed the tax on those one thought were somehow less worth while. This goes right against the criticism from the benches opposite about the Government treating services as a whole as less worth while by imposing the tax. If one tried to distinguish between services on the grounds that some were less worth while than others, one would increase the difficulties rather than decrease them. In any exercise which is concerned with the broadening of the base of taxation, as S.E.T. is, one is not concerned with value judgments. There is no question of the tax being imposed on services because they are regarded as less worth while.
      The effect of the Amendment would not be that for which many hon. Members have contended. The effect would be to leave it to the courts to decide whether milk roundsmen were engaged
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      primarily in selling or in transport. Before Report, I will consider carefully whether we can accept the Amendment to that extent. It has been put to me, for example, that in some respects some milk roundsmen are carrying out deliveries in accordance with orders which have previously been placed. That is a point which I would like to consider further, and I will let the hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) and his hon. Friends know of our decision on Report.
      Mr. Patrick Jenkin: My hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) has amply justified the time that the Committee has taken on this important matter. I am sure I should express the appreciation of the whole Committee to the Minister of State for the conciliatory approach that he has made to the cogent case advanced from both sides.
      It seemed to me, as I listened to the argument developed by my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry—and the Minister of State rightly referred to the moving speech by the hon. and learned Member for Warrington (Mr. W. T. Williams) and other hon. Members who have spoken—that a very strong case was made out for exempting these workers in the distribution of milk from the imposition of selective employment tax.
      Until the Minister of State had spoken, I had not appreciated the argument which he put about the bread roundsmen and the soft drinks roundsmen being regarded as transport workers. I do not want to prolong the debate, because we want to get to the next Amendment, but it illustrates some of the appalling difficulties which the Government have got into in attempting to draw lines of this sort in connection with S.E.T.
      However, having heard the Minister of State's reply, I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry will think it right to withdraw the Amendment so that we can see what is to be put down on the Order Paper on Report. In any event, we can return to it ourselves if the Government feel unable to make the concession which the Minister of State has promised to look at.
      Mr. Biffen: I should like to join with my hon. Friend the Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Patrick Jenkin) in thanking the Minister of State—and perhaps I should apologise for having referred to him as the Financial Secretary when moving the Amendment—for the spirit of conciliation that he has shown
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      towards it. We are grateful for even the modest degrees of repentance that may be exhibited. I hope, in this general spirit of amity, we may proceed.
      Therefore, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Mr. Michael Shaw: I beg to move Amendment No. 89, in page 64, line 9, at end insert:
      (12) With a view to the making by the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity of payment by way of refund of selective employment tax in respect of persons seasonally employed in hotels, restaurants or similar establishments section 2 of the Selective Employment Payments Act 1966 shall have effect in respect of any contribution week beginning on or after 7th July 1969 with the following amendments, namely—
      (a) in subsection (2)(a) after the words 'paragraph (a) to (e)' there shall be inserted the words 'or in paragraph (f)';
      (b) in subsection (3), at the end there shall be added the following paragraph—
      '(f) activities falling under minimum list heading 884 of the Standard Industrial Classification, insofar as those engaged in the said activities are seasonally employed.
      For the purposes of this subsection "seasonally employed" means employed either full time or part time for a period not more than six consecutive months in any year'.
      For the purposes of this subsection 'seasonally employed' means employed either full time or part time for a period not more than six months in any year.
      The Chairman: With this Amendment it will be convenient to take the following Amendments: No. 85, in page 62, line 10, after 'if', insert:
      'in paragraph (1)(a) after the entry "Hexham" there shall be inserted the entry "Guisborough"; after "Keswick"—"Loftus"; after "Scarborough"—"Saltburn, Stokesley, Teesside"'.
      No. 131, in page 62, line 10, after 'if', insert:
      'in paragraph (1)(a) after the entry "Hexham" there were inserted the entry "Guisborough", after the entry "Keswick" there were inserted the entry "Loftus", and after the entry "Scarborough" there were inserted the entry "Saltburn, Stokesley"; and as if'.
      No. 133, in page 62, line 10, after 'if', insert:
      'in paragraph (1)(a) after the entry "Amble" there shall be inserted the entry "Aspatria" after "Malton"—"Maryport"—after "Whitby"—"Whitehaven", "Wigton" and "Workington"; and'.
      No. 77, in page 62, line 10, at end insert:
      'before the entry "Annan" there were inserted the entry "Alexandria"'.
      and No. 78, in page 62, line 12, at end insert:
      'after the entry "Arbroath" were inserted the entry "Ardrossan and Saltcoats"; after the
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      entry "Lanark" were inserted the entry "Largs"; after the entry "Oban" there were inserted the entry "Peebles" and after the entry "Sanquhar" there were inserted the entry "Stevenston"'.
      Mr. Shaw: As has been said in debates before today, we have had to go to some trouble to frame our Amendments so that they are within the rules of order for these debates. Happily, however, there are several Amendments before us open for discussion, and I believe that all the points that have to be made on hotels can very largely be made tonight.
      The main Amendment stresses the position of hotels that are seasonal in nature, not employing the majority, or even any, of their staff for the whole year.
      Last year, in Section 47 of the Finance Act, the Government gave exemption to certain hotels in the rural parts of the development areas. It is significant that as each year goes by, as a result of pressure and debates, points are made bringing out the oddities—and I believe that to be a mild word—of this tax, but eventually the penny drops and concessions are made.
      The concession last year, I freely confess, was very helpful to Scarborough and Whitby—my own constituency. But it would be idle to pretend that the arguments that were put forward when Section 47 of the Finance Act was being debated last year were applicable only to hotels in particular parts of the development areas. The arguments which were put forward could have been applied to many other hotels outside the development areas and indeed to other hotels within the development areas which were excluded, particularly several hotels in the North Riding of Yorkshire.
      The arguments showed in large measure that S.E.T. should not apply to the hotel industry at all. If tourism is to be encouraged, surely it must be accepted that a general standard of hotels is vital throughout the country, and that that standard must grow and better itself each year because the standard of our hotels is compared with the standard of hotels in other countries? In other words, the hotel industry is an international industry, and we are judged not by the standard of our hotels in different parts

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      of the country, but by the standard of hotels throughout the world.
      Mr. James Ramsden: Will my hon. Friend concede that even growth towards this standard on which he so rightly insists is all the more difficult so long as hotels in one district are treated differently from and more favourably than hotels in another district?
      Mr. Shaw: I would handle that argument rather delicately. I concede that it was right last year to extend the relief to those hotels which received it, but I now seek to bring the other hotels, including those in Harrogate, up to an equal standard with regard to exemption from S.E.T.
      It is inevitable in all these debates which take place each year on S.E.T. that many of the arguments are rehearsed year by year, and it has been proved time and again that these rehearsals of argument are not without value, because in subsequent years concessions are made. But when we seek concessions from the Minister with regard to hotels, or anything else, I think that we have to do as we did in our earlier debates and go back to the real reason why S.E.T. was set up, and why it was set up in the form that it was. The three main reasons have already been mentioned.
      When the Chancellor originally brought forward this exercise in new taxation legislation, he admitted that he did not want to use any of the more traditional forms of taxation, but he then said that not using those meant that he had to find something else. There are three reasons why the Chancellor wanted something else. First, he wanted another tax to avoid the adverse effects of increases in purchase tax and income tax.
      It is ironic that in that year, 1966, the Chancellor sought to avoid increasing purchase tax and so introduced S.E.T. The hoteliers can reflect that S.E.T. was introduced so that they would not have to pay purchase tax on the sheets, the blankets, the towels, the curtains, and so on, which they needed to equip their hotels. They can now reflect that this year not only have they to pay an increase in S.E.T., but they have to pay purchase tax on those articles. Where is that first principle which the Chancellor of that
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      day and age set forth when he imposed this new tax?
      11.45 p.m.
      Secondly, he spoke about broadening the tax base. I will not dwell on that, except to point out that if one is broadening the tax system, it does not help to make it selective in the many unacceptable ways in which S.E.T. is selective.
      Thirdly, he referred to the need for a positive contribution to the long-run structural changes that we needed to achieve a healthy balance of payments position. If S.E.T. were considered on that last count only, it would stand utterly condemned. Indeed, since its inception the economy has gone downhill. S.E.T. is not the only reason for this state of affairs. The whole strategy of the Government, of which S.E.T. is a part, is to blame.
      The Government must accept that hotels have only short seasons and that they have many difficulties with which to contend. Their overheads, mainly annual overheads, must be met out of the income earned during those short seasons. Because staff can be employed for only a part of the year, it is difficult to obtain skilled employees. Yet these are the very hotels that play an important part in providing family holidays for our people and in catering for the tourist trade.
      In my constituency—the same can be said of hotels elsewhere, including those in Bridlington and Filey where S.E.T. rebate is not enjoyed—the holiday season is short and the hoteliers are not doing well. I mentioned this in a similar debate last year, but the situation is still relevant. Because they are not doing well, they are finding it difficult to secure new and vigorous young management. When this happens standards are bound to decline. Even so, hotels in my area and elsewhere have a strong future because of the demand for the accommodation which they offer.
      I raised this matter last year. I urge hon. Members to consider it again tonight. I hope that this year the verdict will be in favour of my proposal.
      Sir F. Maclean: It has been pointed our time and again during our discussion of S.E.T. that it is an arbitrary and capricious tax. There is no better instance of its total irrationality than the

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      way in which it discriminates deliberately against the hoteliers of North Ayrshire.
      Last year a 50 per cent. increase in S.E.T. was imposed on them, while at the same time their immediate neighbours were exempted from the tax altogether, as were nearly all comparable hoteliers in Scotland. Now they have been hit by another 28 per cent. increase which has not hit their competitors.
      The explanation of this extraordinary discrimination given by the Minister of State, Scottish Office, was that
      "refunds are not being made in areas catering primarily for day trippers".
      That is nonsense. The Minister of State knows that well because he knows the area. Incidentally, I am surprised that there is no Scottish Minister on the Treasury Bench to listen to the debate. The Scottish Ministers know quite well, and the Treasury should know, too, that on the whole visitors to North Ayrshire go for much longer stays than that. And that applies more to North Ayrshire than to many resorts which have been exempted from this tax altogether. The resorts in my constituency, Skelmorlie, Largs, Fairlie, West Kilbride, Seamill, Ardrossan, Saltcoats and Stevenston, do not cater primarily for day trippers. All have a number of excellent hotels which welcome visitors from all over the world, and these visitors mostly stay for a week or two if not longer to enjoy while they still may the salubrious sea air and other amenities of the Lower Clyde. I ask you, Mr. Irving, why should these unfortunate hoteliers, who, incidentally, make a big contribution to our national economy be singled out from all other Scottish hoteliers and made to pay this discriminatory tax which is now being given a fresh edge by the addition of a further 28 per cent.?
      Mr. Ednyfed Hudson Davies: I shall be brief, but I wish to draw attention to three points.
      Once again I stress the severe disability under which the hotel industry labours as a result of being seasonal. Hotels in my constituency have perhaps a shorter season than most, in many areas not more than four months. Yet they are loaded with annual overheads—not just the physical overheads, but particularly and most important the
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      specific overhead of having to maintain and keep staff throughout the year although they are able to use them only for a short time during the summer.
      This situation is accentuated—and this is my second point—by the fact that increases of the type contemplated in the Finance Bill, following, naturally, the Budget, occur at the beginning of the season and at a time most likely to affect hoteliers detrimentally in that they are already committed to their tariffs. They have made their bookings and their prices are fixed—and then, as the Budget is introduced, they find that they have miscalculated in a way which they could not have predicted in advance. They have to carry their own increased costs on laundry and other services, and they are unable to cover their increased costs arising from S.E.T. I have discussed this with some hoteliers and have suggested that this would be a fair increase to prices, but their answer is, "We cannot say 'Subject to alteration' in our tariff publications, because that would make our prospective visitors hesitate. We have to carry this load".
      The anomaly of the present situation and of the present arrangements for exemption is particularly brought out by the fact, which has been taken into account in the Amendment but is not taken into account in the present system of exemptions for hoteliers, that the problems of the seasonal hotel trade have nothing whatever to do with being within or without development areas. Their problems are to do with the seasonal nature of the business.
      I have an extraordinary situation in my constituency, for most of it is in a development area and most of the towns and villages within the development area are exempt, and about that I am delighted, and yet one large town, the only large town outside the development area, Llandudno, is not exempt.
      On 6th May, last year, my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh) asked for the figures of the percentage of employed population in manufacturing industries in all the areas within development areas which were given hotel exemption from S.E.T. The figures are interesting, for it clearly emerges that the reason for exemption is the low percentage of employees in manufacturing industries.

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      But the Board of Trade cannot give separate figures for Llandudno to show whether they are as low as the average of 20 per cent. in all the exempted areas within the Welsh development area because the figures are not collected separately but are part of the figures relating to Conway. Yet, although the figures for Conway cannot be given separately, Conway is given exemption while Llandudno is not.
      I contend that Llandudno would have about 50 per cent. employment in manufacturing industry. The nearest analogy would be with Aberystwyth, for which figures are given because it is in a development area, and yet a village like Beaumaris within the development area and with 50 per cent. of the working population in manufacturing industry is given exemption from S.E.T.
      This is absolute nonsense and it simply means that development area boundaries are irrelevant to the problems of the hotel industry. I stress that the problems of this industry are not connected with incentives to the development of manufacturing industry but are due exclusively to the industry's seasonal nature.
      Mr. James Tinn: Sensitive as always to the feeling of the Committee, I have the impression that brevity on my part would be appreciated. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] I will try to oblige, and I hope that hon. Members will co-operate and not intervene.
      I begin by referring to my Amendment, No. 131, which would seek to include certain parts of my constituency in the repayment scheme. I recognise the justification of the scheme—first, the essential qualification that an area must be within a development area; second, that it must be particularly dependent upon tourist traffic and the hotel industry, and have a lower than average dependency on industrial employment.
      That is why my Amendment differs from Amendment No. 55 in the names of the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Michael Shaw) and his hon. Friends. Their Amendment would include Tees-side and while, representing part of Tees-side, I was strongly tempted to support that Amendment, I recognise that in terms of the scheme, intended as it is to benefit the rural parts of the
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      development areas, Tees-side, despite its many attractions, can hardly claim to be included.
      Accordingly, I should be very happy if my hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State would concede the point in regard to the rural parts of my constituency, which include a part of the country which is second to none in scenic attractions. He knows from representations I have made to him on several occasions that the constituency has a very serious unemployment rate. Brief though I have deliberately been, I hope my hon. and learned Friend will take into serious account the points I have made and will recall those which I have made at rather greater length on other occasions.
      11.0 p.m.
      Mr. J. Bruce-Gardyne: I endorse what has been said in support of these Amendments. I hope that the Committee will accept the whole group because they would benefit hotels in both areas such as that represented by my hon. Friend the Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean) and other areas of Scotland which were haphazardly excluded when concessions were made last year.
      I always find that the Government show themselves incredibly insensitive to the basic reason for the unpopularity of this tax. The Chancellor showed himself a little more understanding this afternoon. The basic reason for the unpopularity of this tax is that it contravenes the basic rule that people equally situated should be equally taxed. Precisely because that rule is not observed, when concessions are made as they were made last year in respect of hotels and S.E.T. refund, although some anomalies and unfairnesses are removed others are at the same time created. In Scotland today some areas such as Bute and North Ayrshire have been haphazardly excluded for no apparent reason. I hope that when he replies to the debate the Minister of State will at least explain why they were excluded, for no reason was given last year.
      Parts of my constituency were excluded because by sheer chance they happen to fall within the limits of an employment exchange area attached to one of the four cities which were excluded. If

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      Amendment No. 79 were accepted that would go a long way to help hotels in areas which were excluded with no reason being given for their exclusion.
      Mr. Taverne: The short debate on hotels and related subjects has fallen into three parts. There have been general observations on the position regarding hotels, then on Amendments specifically related to seasonal employment, and lastly on particular areas.
      Dealing in the spirit in which the debate has been conducted first with the position in regard to hotels, hon. Members opposite have told us on a number of occasions that they advocate as an alternative to S.E.T. something akin to value-added tax. If we had a value-added tax it is almost inconceivable that hotels would not be included. In Germany and Austria value-added tax is levied at the normal rate for services rendered by hotels. In France the tax is 15 per cent.—far higher than selective employment tax here. Hon. Members who complain that it is unjust that the tax should apply to hotels should bear in mind that a value-added tax would impose as high a burden.
      Mr. Iain Macleod: If I may intervene for a moment, and for the record, the hon. and learned Gentleman is comparing the value-added tax—on which I made clear earlier that we have not yet announced a final decision—with selective employment tax. The hon. and learned Gentleman is leaving out altogether the fact that if a value-added tax is introduced it will replace not only selective employment tax but purchase tax as well, and purchase tax bears very heavily upon hotels.
      Mr. Taverne: If one looks at the burdens as a whole, there is no doubt whatever that it would be a very considerable burden which a value-added tax would impose on hotels. However, when we see the final proposal we shall look at it.
      Secondly, there is the question of seasonal employment, which the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Michael Shaw) referred to. This subject was dealt with at length last year, and I do not think I need elaborate on it tonight, but, of course, the first effect of the Amendment if it were passed would
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      be that the refund would be available in parts of the country which are prosperous and which have many alternative sources of employment. The effect might well then be that seasonal employment would become comparatively more attractive and would withdraw labour from other fields.
      In particular, there is no evidence at the moment one way or the other to show that small seasonal hotels are going out of business. According to the little Neddy on hotels, most hotels have raised their prices to cover the cost of S.E.T. This is one field in which the cost of S.E.T. is passed on. But the effect of the latest increase in S.E.T. should amount to only about an extra 3d. in the pound, or 1¼ per cent., on hotel costs. From the point of view of workers in hotels, if this Committee passed a measure which would favour seasonal workers to the extent that is envisaged, this would be bound to lead to an extension of seasonal employment and this would have very many undesirable consequences. There would be a temptation to take on seasonal staff at the expense of permanent staff. Not only would workers lose continuity of employment, but they would not be eligible for redundancy pay because they would not have been in the same employment for more than two years. An increase in the number of seasonal workers would also affect entitlement to unemployment benefit. From the Ministry point of view this would be impracticable. It would mean keeping a check on each individual worker to see how long he had worked in different establishments.
      I hope that the movers of the seasonal employment Amendment will not press it. It would be quite unworkable and undesirable.
      Mr. Rees-Davies: Would the Minister answer the real point? The tourist development areas of this country are quite different from the industrial development areas. Therefore, in considering a review, if they are carrying on in this way they should see that areas which are truly tourist areas are included in the ambit of this rebate.
      Mr. Taverne: I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was here during the moving of this Amendment, but, of course, it does not relate to development areas. It is totally unrelated with the

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      point which the hon. Gentleman is seeking to make.
      Third, there is the point about concessions for particular areas. The case has not been developed at great length here, but it is important to remember what the intention and the design of this original concession was meant to do. It was meant to give an advantage to hotels in remote areas with little manufacturing employment, areas which do not get the benefit of the other measures relating to development areas by way of regional employment premium and so on. It was designed to enable hotels in these areas to attract tourists for the benefit of the areas as a whole, and to do so by giving these areas—compared with other areas—a marginal advantage in price, in service or in facilities.
      In making a selective concession which applied to certain remote rural areas, it was inevitable that borderlines would have to be drawn which would be bitterly resented by those on the wrong side of the borderline. As the hon. Member for Angus, North and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) said, quite rightly, each time the area of that concession is extended further resentment is created because new borderlines are drawn.
      The difficulty about meeting some of the very real problems which have been mentioned is that if these inequities in some of the areas which are the subject of these Amendments were eliminated, all the time the marginal advantage of the remote areas for which the original concession was designed would be eroded. All the time the more areas that get the concession the less the special attractions that these remote and rural areas can present by way of an advantage in price, service or facilities.
      The areas the subject of these Amendments may in some cases be like other areas where the concession is obtained, but by and large they are not areas which are remote and cut off or which have only a low degree of manufacturing. At present I am not convinced that it would serve the purpose of the original concession to extend it to the areas now proposed. I will, however, carefully consider the submissions which have been made and it may be that on Report there will be some way in which we can meet some of the points made. I must
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      make it clear, however, that this is not an undertaking to make the concession. At the moment I am not convinced that the purpose of the original scheme would be served by such a concession. But the Government's mind is not completely closed on this and we will carefully consider the representations which have been made.
      Mr. Higgins: My right hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod) has already stressed the difficulty of framing Amendments within the terms of the Money Resolution. It is right to point out on this Amendment that we are in favour of the abolition of the selective employment tax for the whole of the tourist industry, because there has been some misunderstanding in the trade press with regard to the framing of some Amendments which have not been selected, framing which has arisen because of the difficulty of getting the Amendments within the rules of order if we covered the whole of the industry. The brewing trade, in particular, has been under a misapprehension on this score.
      I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr. Michael Shaw), who moved that Amendment, was absolutely right to lay stress on the importance of the question of season trade, because this is of very great significance to hotels which are open for only part of the year and to hotels which do a greater amount of business in a particular season. Therefore, this is the very least that one could hope for by way of concession from the Government.
      The second point which has been made in the debate on these Amendments relates to the whole question of drawing lines between development areas and elsewhere and within parts of development areas. The point which I stressed earlier and which needs to be emphasised is that the selection of the particular places to be favoured or penalised is completely and utterly arbitrary. It is purely and simply the Government's whim whether this or that hotel is viable or is not. We believe that this is a totally wrong use of the Government's powers in fiscal measures.
      The real, fundamental point which we make on the Amendment is that the

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      Government's policy, which the Chancellor says is designed to improve the balance of payments, in very many aspects does no such thing. If the Government refuse, as apparently the Minister of State was refusing, to accept the Amendment, it is clear that they are not concerned with the very great contribution which the hotel industry makes to the balance of payments. The industry contributes to our balance of payment, first, because many people go to hotels in Britain rather than abroad providing that the hotels in Britain present value for money and are not penalised by fiscal measures, and, second, because the hotel industry makes a very great deal of foreign exchange—far greater, certainly
      taking the tourist industry as a whole, than, for example, derives from the exports of motor cars. Therefore, we on this side believe that it is absurd that the Government should extend selective employment tax to this industry, whether or not it be for seasonal workers as my hon. Friend has mentioned, in some parts of the country and not others. We hope that the Committee will vote in favour of this Amendment and do something to help the balance of payments.
      11.15 p.m.
      Question put, That the Amendment be made:—
      The Committee divided: Ayes 230, Noes 273.

      Division No. 225.]

      AYES

      [11.15 p.m.

      Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

      Dean, Paul

      Hunt, John

      Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

      Deedes, Rt. Hn. W. F. (Ashford)

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

      Digby, Simon Wingfield

      Iremonger, T. L.

      Astor, John

      Dodds-Parker, Douglas

      Jenkins, Patrick (Woodford)

      Atkins, Humphrey (M't'n & M'd'n)

      Doughty, Charles

      Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

      Awdry, Daniel

      Douglas-Home, Rt. Hn. Sir Alec

      Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

      Baker, Kenneth (Acton)

      Drayson, G. B.

      Jopling, Michael

      Baker, W. H. K. (Banff)

      du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

      Joseph, Rt. Hn. Sir Keith

      Balniel, Lord

      Eden, Sir John

      Kaberry, Sir Donald

      Barber, Rt. Hn. Anthony

      Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

      Kerby, Capt, Henry

      Batsford, Brian

      Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

      Kershaw, Anthony

      Beamish, Col. Sir Tufton

      Emery, Peter

      King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

      Bell, Ronald

      Errington, Sir Eric

      Kirk, Peter

      Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torquay)

      Evans, Gwynfor (C'marthen)

      Kitson, Timothy

      Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gos. & Fhm)

      Ewing, Mrs. Winifred

      Knight, Mrs. Jill

      Berry, Hn. Anthony

      Eyre, Reginald

      Lambton, Viscount

      Biffen, John

      Farr, John

      Lancaster, Col. C. G.

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Fisher, Nigel

      Lane, David

      Birch, Rt. Hn. Nigel

      Fortescue, Tim

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Black, Sir Cyril

      Foster, Sir John

      Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey (Sut'n C'dfield)

      Blaker, Peter

      Galbraith, Hn. T. G.

      Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)

      Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S. W.)

      Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

      Lloyd, Rt. Hn. Selwyn (Wirral)

      Body, Richard

      Glover, Sir Douglas

      Longden, Gilbert

      Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hn. John

      Glyn, Sir Richard

      MacArthur, Ian

      Boyle, Rt. Hn. Sir Edward

      Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

      Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

      Braine, Bernard

      Goodhart, Philip

      Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain

      Brewis, John

      Goodhew, Victor

      McMaster, Stanley

      Brinton, Sir Tatton

      Gower, Raymond

      Macmillan, Maurice (Farnham)

      Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. Sir Walter

      Grant-Ferris, R.

      McNair-Wilson, Michael

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Gresham Cooke, R.

      McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)

      Bruce-Gardyne, J.

      Grieve, Percy

      Maddan, Martin

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N & M)

      Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

      Maginnis, John E.

      Buck, Antony (Colchester)

      Gurden, Harold

      Marples, Rt. Hn. Ernest

      Bullus, Sir Eric

      Hall, John (Wycombe)

      Marten, Neil

      Burden, F. A.

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      Maude, Angus

      Campbell, B. (Oldham, W.)

      Hamilton, Lord (Fermanagh)

      Mawby, Ray

      Campbell, Gordon (Moray & Nairn)

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

      Carlisle, Mark

      Harris, Reader (Heston)

      Maydon, Lt.-Cmdr. S. L. C.

      Channon, H. P. G.

      Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

      Mills, Peter (Torrington)

      Chichester-Clark, R.

      Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)

      Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

      Clark, Henry

      Harvey, Sir Arthur Vere

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Clegg, Walter

      Harvie Anderson, Miss

      Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

      Cooke, Robert

      Hastings, Stephen

      More, Jasper

      Cooper-Key, Sir Neill

      Hawkins, Paul

      Morgan, Geraint (Denbigh)

      Cordle, John

      Hay, John

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

      Corfield, F. V.

      Heald, Rt. Hn. Sir Lionel

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Costain, A. P.

      Heseltine, Michael

      Munro-Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh

      Crouch, David

      Higgins, Terence L.

      Murton, Oscar

      Crowder, F. P.

      Hiley, Joseph

      Nabarro, Sir Gerald

      Cunningham, Sir Knox

      Hill, J. E. B.

      Neave, Airey

      Currie, G. B. H.

      Holland, Philip

      Nicholls, Sir Harmar

      Dalkeith, Earl of

      Hooson, Emlyn

      Noble, Rt. Hn. Michael

      Dance, James

      Hordern, Peter

      Nott, John

      d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

      Hornby, Richard

      Onslow, Cranley

      Orr, Capt. L. P. S.

      St. John-Stevas, Norman

      van Straubenzee, W. R.

      Orr-Ewing, Sir Ian

      Scott, Nicholas

      Vaughan-Morgan, Rt. Hn. Sir John

      Osborn, John (Hallam)

      Scott-Hopkins, James

      Vickers, Dame Joan

      Page, Graham (Crosby)

      Sharples, Richard

      Waddington, David

      Page, John (Harrow, W.)

      Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

      Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)

      Peel, John

      Silvester, Frederick

      Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek

      Percival, Ian

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Wall, Patrick

      Peyton, John

      Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

      Walters, Dennis

      Pike, Miss Mervyn

      Smith, John (London & W'minster)

      Ward, Dame Irene

      Pounder, Rafton

      Speed, Keith

      Weatherill, Bernard

      Price, David (Eastleigh)

      Stainton, Keith

      Wells, John (Maidstone)

      Prior, J. M. L.

      Steel, David (Roxburgh)

      Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

      Pym, Francis

      Stodart, Anthony

      Wiggin, A. W.

      Quennell, Miss J, M.

      Stoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.

      Williams, Donald (Dudley)

      Ramsden, Rt. Hn. James

      Summers, Sir Spencer

      Wilson, Geoffrey (Truro)

      Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

      Tapsell, Peter

      Wood, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

      Woodnutt, Mark

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Taylor, Edward M. (G'gow, Cathcart)

      Worsley, Marcus

      Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

      Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

      Wright, Esmond

      Ridsdale, Julian

      Temple, John M.

      Younger, Hn. George

      Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

      Thatcher, Mrs. Margaret

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Thorpe, Rt. Hn. Jeremy

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Royle, Anthony

      Tilney, John

      Mr. Anthony Grant and

      Russell, Sir Ronald

      Turton, Rt. Hn. R. H.

      Mr. Hector Monro.

      NOES

      Albu, Austen

      Doig, Peter

      Hoy, James

      Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)

      Dunn, James A.

      Huckfield, Leslie

      Alldritt, Walter

      Dunnett, Jack

      Hughes, Rt. Hn. Cledwyn (Anglesey)

      Anderson, Donald

      Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth (Exeter)

      Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)

      Archer, Peter

      Dunwoody, Dr. John (F'th & C'b'e)

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Ashton, Joe (Bassetlaw)

      Eadie, Alex

      Hunter, Adam

      Atkins, Ronald (Preston, N.)

      Edwards, William (Merioneth)

      Hynd, John

      Atkinson, Norman (Tottenham)

      Ellis, John

      Irvine, Sir Arthur (Edge Hill)

      Bacon, Rt. Hn. Alice

      English, Michael

      Janner, Sir Barnett

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Ennals, David

      Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Barnes, Michael

      Ensor, David

      Jeger, Mrs. Lena (H'b'n & St. P'cras, S.)

      Barnett, Joel

      Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Beaney, Alan

      Evans, Ioan L. (Birm'h'm, Yardley)

      Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

      Bence, Cyril

      Faulds, Andrew

      Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

      Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

      Fernyhough, E.

      Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Finch, Harold

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Binns, John

      Fletcher, Rt. Hn. Sir Eric (Islington, E.)

      Jones, Rt. Hn. Sir Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)

      Bishop, E. S.

      Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

      Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)

      Blackburn, F.

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Jones, T. Alec (Rhondda, West)

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Foley, Maurice

      Judd, Frank

      Booth, Albert

      Foot, Rt. Hn. Sir Dingle (Ipswich)

      Kelley, Richard

      Boston, Terence

      Foot, Michael (Ebbw Vale)

      Kerr, Dr. David (W'worth, Central)

      Bottomley, Rt. Hn. Arthur

      Ford, Ben

      Kerr, Russell (Feltham)

      Boyden, James

      Forrester, John

      Lawson, George

      Bradley, Tom

      Fowler, Gerry

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Bray, Dr. Jeremy

      Fraser, John (Norwood)

      Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick (Newton)

      Brooks, Edwin

      Freeson, Reginald

      Lee, Rt. Hn. Jennie (Cannock)

      Brown, Rt. Hn. George (Belper)

      Galpern, Sir Myer

      Lee, John (Reading)

      Brown, Hugh D. (G'gow, Provan)

      Gardner, Tony

      Lestor, Miss Joan

      Brown, Bob (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, W.)

      Ginsburg, David

      Lever, Harold (Cheetham)

      Brown, R, W. (Shoreditch & F'bury)

      Gordon Walker, Rt. Hn. P. C.

      Lever, L. M. (Ardwick)

      Buchan, Norman

      Gray, Dr. Hugh (Yarmouth)

      Lewis, Arthur (W, Ham, N.)

      Buchanan, Richard (G'gow, Sp'burn)

      Gregory, Arnold

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)

      Grey, Charles (Durham)

      Lipton, Marcus

      Callaghan, Rt. Hn. James

      Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)

      Lomas, Kenneth

      Cant, R. B.

      Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

      Loughlin, Charles

      Carmichael, Neil

      Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

      Luard, Evan

      Carter-Jones, Lewis

      Gunter, Rt. Hn. R. J.

      Lyon, Aleander W. (York)

      Castle, Rt. Hn. Barbara

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)

      Chapman, Donald

      Hamling, William

      Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

      Coe, Denis

      Hannan, William

      McBride, Neil

      Coleman, Donald

      Harper, Joseph

      MacColl, James

      Corbet, Mrs. Freda

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Macdonald, A. H.

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Hart, Rt. Hn. Judith

      McGuire, Michael

      Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

      Hattersley, Roy

      McKay, Mrs. Margaret

      Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Hazell, Bert

      Mackenie, Gregor (Rutherglen)

      Davidson, Arthur (Accrington)

      Healey, Rt. Hn. Denis

      Mackie, John

      Davies, G. Elfed (Rhondda, E.)

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Davies, Dr. Ernest (Stretford)

      Henig, Stanley

      Maclennan, Robert

      Davies, Rt. Hn. Harold (Leek)

      Herbison, Rt, Hn. Margaret

      MacMillan, Malcolm (Western Isles)

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Hilton, W. S.

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

      de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

      Hobden, Dennis

      McNamara, J. Kevin

      Delargy, Hugh

      Hooley, Frank

      MacPherson, Malcolm

      Dempsey, James

      Horner, John

      Mahon, Peter (Preston, s.)

      Diamond, Rt. Hn. John

      Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

      Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

      Dickens, James

      Howell, Denis (Small Heath)

      Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

      Dobson, Ray

      Howie, W.

      Manuel, Archie

      390

      391

      Mapp, Charles

      Pavitt, Laurence

      Strauss, Rt. Hn. G. R.

      Marks, Kenneth

      Pearson, Arthur (Pontypridd)

      Summerskill, Hn. Dr, Shirley

      Marquand, David

      Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

      Taverne, Dick

      Marsh, Rt. Hn. Richard

      Pentland, Norman

      Thomas, Rt. Hn. George

      Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

      Perry, George H. (Nottingham, S.)

      Thomson, Rt. Hn. George

      Maxwell, Robert

      Prentice, Rt. Hn. R. E.

      Thornton, Ernest

      Mayhew, Christopher

      Price, Christopher (Perry Barr)

      Tinn, James

      Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

      Price, Thomas (Westhoughton)

      Tuck, Raphael

      Mendelson, John

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Urwin, T. W.

      Mikardo, Ian

      Probert, Arthur

      Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)

      Millan, Bruce

      Rees, Merlyn

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Miller, Dr. M. S.

      Rhodes, Geoffrey

      Wallace, George

      Milne, Edward (Blyth)

      Richard, Ivor

      Watkins, David (Consett)

      Mitchell, R. C. (S'th'pton, Test)

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Watkins, Tudor (Brecon & Radnor)

      Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

      Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy

      Wellbeloved, James

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Roberts, Gwilym (Bedfordshire, S.)

      Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

      Morris, John (Aberavon)

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Whitaker, Ben

      Moyle, Richard

      Robinson, Rt. Hn. Kenneth (St. P'c'as)

      White, Mrs. Eirene

      Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Rodgers, William (Stockton)

      Whitlock, William

      Neal, Harold

      Roebuck, Roy

      Wilkins, W. A.

      Newens, Stan

      Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

      Willey, Rt. Hn. Frederick

      Noel-Baker, Rt. Hn. Philip

      Rose, Paul

      Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)

      Oakes, Gordon

      Ryan, John

      Williams, Alan Lee (Hornchurch)

      Ogden, Eric

      Shaw, Arnold (Ilford, S.)

      Williams, Clifford (Abertillery)

      Oram, Albert E.

      Sheldon, Robert

      Williams, Mrs. Shirley (Hitchin)

      Orbach, Maurice

      Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

      Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

      Orme, Stanley

      Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)

      Willis, Rt. Hn. George

      Oswald, Thomas

      Silverman, Julius

      Wilson, William (Coventry, S.)

      Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, S'tn)

      Skeffington, Arthur

      Winnick, David

      Owen, Will (Morpeth)

      Slater, Joseph

      Woodburn, Rt. Hn. A.

      Paget, R. T.

      Small, William

      Woof, Robert

      Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

      Snow, Julian

      Park, Trevor

      Spriggs, Leslie

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Parker, John (Dagenham)

      Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael

      Mr. Alan Fitch and

      Parkin, Ben (Paddington, N.)

      Stonehouse, Rt. Hn. John

      Mr. Ernest Perry.

      Parkyn, Brian (Bedford)

      To report Progress and ask leave to sit again.—[Mr. Roy Jenkins.]
      Committee report Progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  S. G. BROWN LIMITED, WATFORD (PROPOSED CLOSURE)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Fitch.]
  11.28 p.m.
  Mr. Raphael Tuck: I wish to raise the question of the proposed closure by the Hawker Siddeley company of the Shakespeare Street Factory of S. G. Brown Ltd., Watford. S. G. Brown Ltd. manufactures the finest giroscopic compasses in the world, a vital necessity both in war and peace.
  In 1942 the company was acquired by the Admiralty for £55,750. In 1946 it was decided to carry it on under the Admiralty on a commercial basis. It was, as a First Lord of the Admiralty termed it, "an experiment in Socialism," and was accepted by all concerned—management and workers—with great enthusiasm. "This is our company", they said, "and we are going to make it prosper." This they did, by means of close co-operation with the management;
  392
  they negotiated timing agreements and took cuts in wages. One wonders whether we would see the same kind of thing in other companies today. There were never any strikes. The result was profit after profit, reaching a record of over £200,000 in 1954. Nationalisation had brought success where private enterprise had previously failed. By 1959 the company was worth £1¼ million. Then, in that year, the Conservative Government proposed to denationalise the firm and hand it over again to private enterprise. A storm of opposition from the Labour benches, with my right hon. Friend the present Prime Minister much in evidence, greeted this proposal, the then Opposition fearing for the safety of these men's jobs. There was a full-dress debate in the House. The right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) said:
  "It is nonsense for the party opposite to pretend that under private enterprise, jobs in this firm will be any less safe than under the Government."
  The hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith), then Civil Lord of the Admiralty, said:
  "… we regard future employment in the firm as of the greatet importance and … we shall consider as possible purchasers only firms which can assure us of their ability to provide continuity of employment of the same highly skilled type."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th June, 1959; Vol. 607, c. 1421 and 1462.]

  393
  So the Conservatives sold the firm to De Havilland Holdings and the American Armor-Bosch Corporation, which was later taken over by Hawker Siddeley. The Labour Party felt so strongly about it that in July, 1959, The Times reported that the National Executive had pledged that S. G. Brown Ltd. would be renationalised when a Labour Government came to power. It reported Mr. Morgan Phillips, the General Secretary, as saying:
  "It is our intention to ensure that the firm shall be retained by the nation."
  What happened after the sale? A new managing director and management team were introduced in 1962. The old heads left. This was followed by unnecessary diversification and the sub-contracting out of thousands of hours of work while 47 machines were standing idle in the company's premises, though the standards of workmanship outside could not be compared with the high standards of S. G. Brown Ltd. There was also a disproportionate increase in administrative staff as opposed to the highly skilled technical staff and a consequent increase in the overheads and a lack of efficiency.
  The shop stewards constantly raised these matters, feeling that the firm would be priced out of getting new jobs. Time and again they asked for a meeting with Sir Arnold Hall, the managing director of Hawker Siddeley. They said that bad management, bad organisation and bad planning were responsible for the bad state of the company. But the reply was always the same—that the directors were satisfied with the situation and that work would be forthcoming, if need be, from the Hawker Siddeley Group.
  So the staff in the progress department was increased from 10 to 27. Twenty-seven people responsible for progress! What progress was there? Not one new contract was placed with the company after denationalisation, and instead of profit after profit being made, there was loss after loss—over £66,000 in 1963 and over £328,000 in 1966, and so on. Yet the managing director wrote to the convenor in 1966 that forward orders were higher than they had been for many years, that there were schemes which would reward the extra effort and that there was a brighter future for the employees. On a number of occasions he
  394
  stated that there would be no redundancies whatever. It is my contention that if this was not a calculated deception, it at least showed complete inability on the part of the management to forecast or exercise any control over the future of the company.
  Now, just three weeks ago, the employees were told that there is insufficient work to make the factory economic and to bring the company back into a profitable position and that production at the factory will close and be transferred to the parent company, Hawker Siddeley Dynamics, in Lostock, Lancashire, where there is capacity to absorb the work load. Now where is the continuity of employment that was promised by the Government in 1959?
  This means that because of the failure of management to allow the workers to contribute helpful criticism, which was the basis of the previous success, 600 workers find their jobs in peril through no fault of their own. The super-clean air room of the latest type which has just been installed at Shakespeare Street at a cost of about £50,000 will disappear into thin air, while the specially qualified force with unique experience in all this highly skilled work will disperse and these highly technical devices will not be able to be produced with anything like the existing efficiency.
  It must be remembered that S. G. Brown Limited still makes the world's finest giroscopic compasses adaptable to a variety of installation conditions, and continues to make and service appliances for Her Majesty's Government in other companies, and, further, that its workmanship standards are so high that S. G. Brown Ltd.'s rivals are known to subcontract work to S. G. Brodn Ltd. to ensure that the appliances will meet the stringent specification requirements of the various Ministries.
  Closure of the S. G. Brown Ltd. Shakespeare Street, Watford, factory could be justified if the complete unit were moved to better premises in the Watford district. But the premises are of less importance than effective management. Transfer of the work under the same management means transfer of all the problems that bedevil the present situation. Transfer of the work to a distant factory, however modern, that has

  395
  no long continuous experience of giroscopic manufacture means, with no disrespect to the workers up there, a certain setback to the current production and the programme envisaged for next year.
  Precision giroscopic manufacture is a branch of the trade where an unbroken background of experience is essential to maintain present standards and essential to satisfactory development in the future. The managing director of S. G. Brown Ltd. has admitted that over three years was needed to develop the Arma compass at a factory which has long specialised in giro manufacture. What chance has another factory without this specialist background of even taking over where the Watford factory leaves off?
  As devices that guide ships, planes, tanks and missiles and scan the ocean depths to detect and record the presence and size of shoals of fish and other submarine phenomena become more accurate in their performance so do the demands upon skill and patience become more exacting and the continuation of experience more necessary. It is a mistake for any one to think that acquiring new skills of such high degree can be achieved immediately a need exists. Suddenly, as the need arises, one cannot acquire such skills.
  Her Majesty's Government have certain requirements for Arma compasses in 1969 and 1970, and the transfer of work that is proposed places the completion of these orders in jeopardy.
  The disbanding of the Shakespeare Street, Watford, work force which will follow the transfer of work to Lostock will be seen to have long-term consequences not only of interest to the workers of S. G. Brown Ltd, but to Her Majesty's Ministries which rely on the precise reliability of the instruments of S. G. Brown Ltd. Once scattered, this unique assembly of skills will never be re-mustered, and then to what wholly British owned company can we turn in time of national need?
  I fear the disastrous consequences of closure if S. G. Brown Ltd. and Hawker Siddeley persist that there is no alternative. In order to avert them, it is my contention that S. G. Brown Ltd., should be renationalised as soon as possible. This is a moral obligation on the part of
  396
  the Government in view of what the Labour Party said in 1959; that it would renationalise the company, and in view of the failure of the company to provide continuity of employment, which was promised by the Conservative Government in 1969, I repeat—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I am not unsympathetic; but can the company be renationalised without legislation? If not, we cannot propose legislation on the Adjournment.
  Mr. Tuck: I ask the Government to consider renationalisation and putting a stop to the transfer of the company's work immediately. The following objectives should then be pursued. First, changes should be introduced in management to bring in engineers. Second, we should engage the services of business consultants and insist upon the implementation of their findings. Third, the work now being done at the Chiswick and West Watford factories should be restored to Shakespeare Street and the premises at Chiswick and West Watford let for the remainder of the leases.
  Fourth, stop sending out work to sub-contractors while workers and machines at Brown's are idle. This has been the practise and is to be deplored wherever it happens. Fifth, stop using costly contract labour in the drawing offices and clerical departments except for holiday relief. Sixth, introduce a joint production council with the widest possible terms of reference. If we do not renationalise, I ask my right hon. Friends to consider using the Industrial Reorganisation Corporation to help keep this company afloat, or if not that, then to use some such method as was used at Fairfields.
  The workers of S. G. Brown Ltd. would welcome changes such as I have outlined and would co-operate as they have previously co-operated to restore S. G. Brown Ltd.'s earlier profitability. They understand that changes in managerial techniques will bring in their train changes on the factory floor that might not always be welcome. They feel that the closure of the factory has to be avoided in their own interests as well as the interests of the nation, and that some changes will have to be endured. They rightly feel that changes are better made as the result of consultation than as the

  397
  result of high-handed dictation. Even now Sir Arnold Hall refuses to see the men.
  I beg my right hon. Friends not to let the technical know-how that has been achieved be lost. If it is lost it will be lost to the benefit of our American competitors. Let us get rid of the dead wood, and give the workers of S. G. Brown Ltd. the chance once again to show their mettle and expertise. Private enterprise has failed where public ownership has succeeded. I urge my right hon. Friends to give public ownership a chance to succeed again.
  11.43 p.m.
  Mr. Ian Mikardo: My hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Mr. Raphael Tuck) has put the House very much in his debt by taking the opportunity of raising this extremely important matter, and I know that the House will be anxious to hear the Minister's reply to the most powerful case which my hon. Friend has marshalled with such force, cogency and comprehensiveness. As one who took part in the debate in 1959, shoulder to shoulder with my right hon. Friend the present Prime Minister and my right hon. Friend the Member for Newton (Mr. Frederick Lee), I feel that I have some obligation to contribute a few words to the discussion.
  I can say in advance that one thing the Minister will tell us in reply is that the undertaking given by the Government as one of the conditions to the sale of S. G. Brown Ltd. from public ownership to private ownership could not have been and was not—and this is right—a contractual obligation. It was a sort of Letter of Intent, if I may coin a phrase. It could not be a contractual obligation that the purchasers, or any subsequent purchasers who brought from the original purchasers, would contract to maintain the factory in operation and to maintain, as a contractual obligation, the whole of the labour force. But there are contracts and contracts. There are statutory obligations, and there are moral obligations. There are contracts in law, and there are contracts in decency. There are men at the factory at Watford who could have sought and obtained other employment, perhaps more advantageous employment from their point of view. They would not and did not because of the undertakings
  398
  that were given. They were let down very badly.
  Finally, I make a political point, and I do it without apology. To my mind, nothing damages the credit, the credibility, the prestige, the good name and the honour of a Government so much as departing, when they are in office, from the principles which they advocated in opposition. That is true whether the departures are great or small.
  Here is a case—from some points of view microcosmic, but macrocosmic in the minds of those thrown out of work—in which, unless the Government take action to reverse the intention of the present owners of the company, they will in the most blatant way refuse in Government the obligation which they assumed in opposition.
  My hon. Friend the Minister of State is a man of honour. I cannot believe that he would willingly be a party to this sort of thing. I hope that he will find it possible to say that the Government will not stand aside supinely and see carried out in practice acts which 10 years ago they said were wrong and which, for the reasons that they gave then, are still blatantly wrong.
  11.47 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Ministry of Technology (Mr. J. P. W. Mallalieu): Both because of his constituency interest and because of the history of this business, I can understand the zeal and energy of my hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Mr. Raphael Tuck) on behalf of S. G. Brown Ltd. and those who work there. It is a zeal and energy to which I pay special tribute, because I happen to know that my hon. Friend is in considerable physical pain tonight.
  The history of this firm is very much as he stated it. Like him, and like my hon. Friend the Member for Poplar (Mr. Mikardo), I deplored the original decision to sell a profitable public enterprise back to private enterprise. Like them both, I can understand the feelings of S. G. Brown Ltd.'s workers who 10 years later face the loss of their jobs.
  The company says that, despite its efforts, it has not obtained a sufficient volume of work to make its Shakespeare Street factory economical and bring the company into a profitable position. It adds that the reduced military spending

  399
  in the United Kingdom does not suggest that there will be any improvement. As a result, the intention is that production now at Shakespeare Street will be transferred to the production factory of the parent company, Hawker Siddeley Dynamics, at Lostock, Bolton, where there is capacity to absorb the work load. Clearly one factory working fully loaded is likely to be more efficient than two factories working under-loaded, especially when the chosen factory is modern, as Lostock is, with a wide range of facilities and individual skills.
  I was delighted to hear my hon. Friend cast no discredit on the skills at Lostock. The labour force there is extremely highly skilled. They manufacture Firestreak and Red Top and the control equipment for, and in the final test of, Sea Dart and Martel. I can assure my hon. Friend, from administrative experience, though I am no technician, that to do that requires a high degree of skill. Indeed, the skills at Lostock are equal to, and cover a wider range than, even the skills at Watford.
  Of course, equipment made at Watford requires the application of accumulated know-how, particularly in assembly and testing processes. That, I agree, could in the initial stages cause difficulty; so it will surely be in the interests of the company to do everything that it can to attract from Watford to Lostock the key men whose skills it will require. That is the company's proposal.
  Both my hon. Friends have urged certain action. My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar began by agreeing, as I am afraid we all must, that these conditions of sale were no better than guidelines. In many respects, I think that they were pretty meaningless. But they are not legally binding. Therefore, it is not a question of taking legal action.
  It has been suggested that we might try to have an inquiry. But the Government have no powers to set up an ad hoc inquiry. We can set one up administratively, but we could not compel witnesses to come. I do not think that, even if they did come, we should find out more about the proposal than we know already. It would not increase our powers to act in any way if we did.
  The main proposal is one of public ownership. I am in some difficulty here,
  400
  because I fully understand that we cannot discuss legislation on the Adjournment. But what would be the purpose of taking action? There is no question here of taking action to preserve a special service to the community as there was when S. G. Brown Ltd. was taken over initially. Today, in contrast with what was happening in the early days of the war, there are many suppliers in this country: Sperry, not wholly British owned; Ferranti; Elliotts; Kelvin Hughes; and, of course, the facilities at Lostock for the S. G. Brown Ltd. work. So there is no urgent necessity to take action on the score that we shall otherwise be denuded of an essential service.
  So far as efficiency is concerned, I cannot see the need to take action. The Shakespeare Street factory is an elderly one, to say the least of it. The Lostock factory is highly up-to-date, and it really is part of the Government's policy to try to encourage firms to increase their efficiency by loading their efficient factories to the maximum so as to reduce overheads. Therefore, on the score of efficiency I see no need to take action.
  But there is another and equally important side, and that is the social side. If the action proposed by Hawker Siddeley were going to lead to a large-scale hardship, for example, then I could see that there would be a possible case for taking action. I do not for a moment suggest that having to change a job is a happy thing for anyone, but in these circumstances the action that the firm is taking cannot be described as having grave social consequences.
  Watford has a very high level of employment. The unemployment rate there is 1·2 per cent. The unemployment rate in Bolton, where it is proposed the work should be sent, is 2 per cent., fairly substantially higher. The demand for labour of this skill in the Watford area is really very considerable; so on social grounds I do not see a case for action.
  What action my right hon. Friend at the Department of Employment and Productivity certainly will take is to make sure that at the moment the notices are given, and even before, all the workers in this factory who are likely to lose their jobs in Shakespeare Street will be interviewed, and very special efforts will be made, as indeed they usually are, to

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  ensure that the employers who in the end are asking for men of this kind are put in touch with those who are out of a job.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. It will help if the Minister addresses the Chair.
  Mr. Mallalieu: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker.
  On practical grounds of efficiency, on social grounds, and indeed on every other ground, I feel that it would not be right for the Government to intervene in this proposal.
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  My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar spoke reasonably enough about moral obligations. I do not think that by that he means that an election pledge given in 1959—
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at two minutes to Twelve o'clock.

NATIONAL FINANCE
  Government Stocks (Sales and Purchases)
  Government Stocks (Sales and Purchases)
  Office Machinery and Accountancy (Decimalisation)
  Office Machinery and Accountancy (Decimalisation)
  Selective Employment Tax
  Selective Employment Tax
  Dividend Increases
  Dividend Increases
  Consumer Expenditure
  Consumer Expenditure
  Loans (Repayment)
  Loans (Repayment)
  Balance of Payments
  Balance of Payments
  International Monetary Fund (Discussions)
  International Monetary Fund (Discussions)
  Tax-Avoidance Devices (Public School Fees)
  Tax-Avoidance Devices (Public School Fees)
  Members' Letters
  Members' Letters
  New 5d. Pieces
  New 5d. Pieces
  Work of Parliament (Printed Paper Supplies)
  Work of Parliament (Printed Paper Supplies)
  War Widows' Pensions
  War Widows' Pensions
  National Debt
  National Debt
  Amateur Radio Operators (Aerial Masts)
  Amateur Radio Operators (Aerial Masts)
  Interests, Profits and Dividends (Overseas Transactions)
  Interests, Profits and Dividends (Overseas Transactions)
  National Savings
  National Savings
  International Monetary Fund (Discussions)
  International Monetary Fund (Discussions)
  Guide Dogs (Income Tax Allowance)
  Guide Dogs (Income Tax Allowance)
  £ Sterling
  £ Sterling
  Merchant Banks (Loans)
  Merchant Banks (Loans)
  International Monetary Fund (Loan)
  International Monetary Fund (Loan)
PUBLIC BUILDING AND WORKS
  Construction Industry (Home-produced Materials)
  Construction Industry (Home-produced Materials)
  Royal Parks (High Buildings)
  Royal Parks (High Buildings)
  Bury St. Edmunds' Abbey (Houses)
  Bury St. Edmunds' Abbey (Houses)
MINISTRY OF POWER
  Steel Corporation (Capital)
  Steel Corporation (Capital)
  Steel Scrap
  Steel Scrap
  Oil Prices
  Oil Prices
  Steel Corporation (Mr. Niall McDiarmid)
  Steel Corporation (Mr. Niall McDiarmid)
HOUSING
  Rent Rebate Schemes
  Rent Rebate Schemes
  Leasehold Reform Act
  Leasehold Reform Act
  Local Authority Houses (Modernisation)
  Local Authority Houses (Modernisation)
  Tower Blocks of Flats
  Tower Blocks of Flats
GAS
  North Sea Gas
  North Sea Gas
LOCAL GOVERNMENT
  Hertfordshire Development Plan
  Hertfordshire Development Plan
  Clearance Areas (Small Shopkeepers)
  Clearance Areas (Small Shopkeepers)
  Chalkhill Redevelopment Area, Brent (Subsidies)
  Chalkhill Redevelopment Area, Brent (Subsidies)
WALES
  Land Commission
  Land Commission
  Welsh-Speaking People
  Welsh-Speaking People
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  British Wine
  British Wine
EMPLOYMENT AND PRODUCTIVITY
  James Watt Street Fire, Glasgow
  James Watt Street Fire, Glasgow
  White Paper "In Place of Strife"
  White Paper "In Place of Strife"
  Motor Industry (Scotland)
  Motor Industry (Scotland)
  Employee Activity Rates (Scotland)
  Employee Activity Rates (Scotland)
  Training Boards and Council (Welsh Employment)
  Training Boards and Council (Welsh Employment)
OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Grants and Loans
  Grants and Loans
  New Hebrides
  New Hebrides
  Nigeria (Claims)
  Nigeria (Claims)
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Expenditure
  Expenditure
  Overseas British Graduates (Repatriation)
  Overseas British Graduates (Repatriation)
  RHODESIA
  RHODESIA
  T.U.C. REPRESENTATIVES (TALKS)
  T.U.C. REPRESENTATIVES (TALKS)
  CABINET MEETING (PUBLICITY)
  CABINET MEETING (PUBLICITY)
  INNER CABINET
  INNER CABINET
  SCHOOL BUILDING AND SOCIAL SERVICES (PUBLIC FUNDS)
  SCHOOL BUILDING AND SOCIAL SERVICES (PUBLIC FUNDS)
  INNER CABINET
  INNER CABINET
  PUBLIC TRUSTEE
  PUBLIC TRUSTEE
CIVIL SERVICE
  Training Centre (Scotland)
  Training Centre (Scotland)
  Pensions
  Pensions
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Mr. Robert Bradshaw (Discussions)
  Mr. Robert Bradshaw (Discussions)
  Malaysia (British Nationals)
  Malaysia (British Nationals)
HOUSE OF COMMONS
  Catering
  Catering
WIRELESS AND TELEVISION
  B.B.C. Television Services (Dumfriesshire)
  B.B.C. Television Services (Dumfriesshire)
MINISTRY OF POWER
  Employees (Bradford Area)
  Employees (Bradford Area)
  Steel Scrap (Staff)
  Steel Scrap (Staff)
GAS
  North Sea Gas
  North Sea Gas
COAL
  Anker Site, North Warwickshire (Opencast Mining Application)
  Anker Site, North Warwickshire (Opencast Mining Application)
  Scottish Mining Industry (Employees)
  Scottish Mining Industry (Employees)
SOCIAL SERVICES
  Overseas Industrial Disputes (Payments to Dependants)
  Overseas Industrial Disputes (Payments to Dependants)
  Drugs (Purchases)
  Drugs (Purchases)
HOSPITALS
  Nurses (Pay and Conditions)
  Nurses (Pay and Conditions)
TECHNOLOGY
  Sponsored Industries
  Sponsored Industries
  Royal Aircraft Establishment, Bedford
  Royal Aircraft Establishment, Bedford
BOARD OF TRADE
  Inertia Sales
  Inertia Sales
  European Economic Community
  European Economic Community
  Import Quotas
  Import Quotas
  Supply of Beer (Report)
  Supply of Beer (Report)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Blackburn.

INDUSTRIAL TRAINING BOARDS AND SHOP STEWARDS
2.35 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government to what extent industrial training boards are already financing the training of shop stewards, and to what extent they are encouraging more training for shop stewards.]
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON): My Lords, 20 training boards make provision in their grant schemes for the training of shop stewards, and others are considering the matter. These grants normally cover, wholly or in part, course fees, reasonable travelling and subsistence expenses, and salary or wages for the period of absence. I regret that information about the total amount of grant paid is not readily available.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply. Without more precise figures it is difficult to say whether it should give us satisfaction or not. But is the noble Lord satisfied that the present scale of training of shop stewards is a match for the extra responsibilities that will be laid upon them by the development of plant bargaining, which is now being advocated from all sides?
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that there is a considerable passage in the White Paper on industrial relations in which the Government say that they are urgently considering ways of improving the situation; and one of the aspects of further training will be in the field of shop stewards. To
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that extent there is still more that we believe should be done; but, of course, there is a great deal going on, and a great deal being done by the trade unions themselves.
LORD BLYTON LORD BLYTON My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the paper that was issued yesterday by the Trades Union Congress, A Programme for Action, is one of the finest documents that has been produced? And is he further aware that we do not mind the Government going with the trade unions to the stake, but for God's sake do not take the Parliamentary Labour Party!
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, my noble friend's remarks are always interesting and important, but not always relevant to the Question.

GREECE AND THE COUNCIL OF EUROPE
LORD MILFORD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in their deliberations on whether Greece should remain a number of the Council of Europe, they took into account the fact that at least thirty democratically elected members of the Greek Parliament are still held in prison, in detention, or under house arrest, some of them being sick and aged.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD CHALFONT): My Lords, the resolution passed by the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe on May 6, for which Her Majesty's Government voted, reaffirmed the need for a speedy return to a democratic régime in Greece.
LORD MILFORD: My Lords, whilst thanking the noble Lord for that reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that the military dictatorship Press in Athens and in this country have treated the resolution of the Foreign Ministers as a moral victory? Is he further aware that since the resolution there has been a spate of trials, formerly significantly held up, in which 50 Greeks are now fighting for their very lives?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, if anybody has interpreted the resolution in the Council of Ministers of the Council of Europe as a moral victory for the régime in Greece, he is very much mistaken. This would be a very wrong interpretation of what that resolution meant, and what it is meant to bring about. I think I might say that the Greek Government are well aware of the very strong feelings that exist in this country about political prisoners and their treatment. I have much sympathy for the spirit that lies behind the Question that the noble Lord has put, but I must make the point—and this is a point that one always makes in terms of relations between one Government and another—that whatever we may think about the fate of the political prisoners in Greece, the Greek Government regard representations on behalf of Greek citizens as interfering in their internal affairs, and the result of such representations would be in my view much more likely to prejudice the prospects of release of these prisoners than to improve them.
VISCOUNT DILHORNE: My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the Communist practices, which I gather the noble Lord, Lord Milford, wholeheartedly supports, do not on occasion lead to the detention of political opponents, both aged and sick, without trial?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, whatever may be the political complexion of this kind of activity, the detention without charge of anyone is obviously not in accordance with democratic practice. Her Majesty's Government deplore it. The fact that the people so detained may be sick and aged merely makes the practice more outrageous.
LORD BARNBY: My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that it would be more appropriate that we concern ourselves with the development of two-way trade with Greece, rather than that we concern ourselves with their internal affairs, for which we are not responsible?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, however important international trade may be, the fate of human beings in any country in the world will always be more important.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the great majority of the Assembly of the Council of Europe, from which I have just returned, who can by no means be said to be "pro-Colonel", did not at all object to the declaration of the Council of Ministers?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I think it is clear that the resolution of the Assembly of the Council of Europe did not call for the expulsion of Greece, but called for the Council of Ministers to take action. The Council of Ministers took action, and, as the noble Lord has said, I think the Council of Europe as a whole is well satisfied with that action.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the widow of Mr. George Papandreou wrote to Mr. Papadopoulos, the Prime Minister, on November 12 last expressing support for the revolution of April 21, 1967, as it had, in her words, "saved Greece from an oncoming Communist menace"? In view of Greece's history since the war, and its geographical position, would not the noble Lord agree that the Greek Government are right in being very conscious of the Communist threat from within and without her boundaries, and right in taking the necessary measures to ensure the safety of their country?
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order, order!
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I think that this is the moment to echo, as I always like to do, the words of my noble Leader, and to say that those comments are interesting and important but not entirely relevant. The fact is that Her Majesty's Government are of course well aware of what is going on in Greece, and our view is that the sooner a democratic form of Government can be restored in Greece, the better. What may have been the causes and the historical lead-up to the revolution is, I think, quite irrelevant to the Question that we are discussing in your Lordships' House this afternoon.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, may I then ask a relevant question? Would not the noble Lord agree that all these stories of torture in Greece are grossly magnified and bear no relation at all to what, in effect, is happening in that country?
LORD CHALFONT: No, my Lords.
LORD ST. HELENS: My Lords, while I wholeheartedly agree with a great deal of what the Minister has said, would he reaffirm that the continued membership of Greece in NATO is vital to the defence of the right flank of the European countries?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I think we have gone far from the original Question put by the noble Lord, Lord Milford, and I think we ought to allow ourselves to discuss the role of Greece in NATO on a different occasion.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, would my noble friend say that our philosophy should be not to defend pseudo-Fascist States but democratic Governments?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I am not quite sure that I have taken the drift of my noble friend's question. I will take note of it when I have read it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, would Her Majesty's Government also be in favour of the introduction of democracy in the Communist countries?
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, this really is another question. I think we are getting into deep matters of political philosophy. In the question of Greece, as in the question of any other country in the world, we are interested in the dignity and quality of life of human individuals. That will be at the heart of all our considerations in the matter of Greece and the Council of Europe.

S.E.T. AND THE BUILDING INDUSTRY
2.40 p.m.
LORD JACQUES: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is their policy to subject reputable firms in the construction industry to unfair competition from firms using self-employed labour to avoid selective employment tax; and whether they are aware that this is increasing the amount of shoddy house building.]
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are aware of the problems created by self-employed labour in the construction industry and set up a Committee of Inquiry under Professor Phelps Brown on this and related subjects. The Committee's Report [Cmnd. 3714] was published in July, 1968. The Government immediately sought the opinion of both sides of the industry, and the Committee's recommendations are being urgently considered in the light of these consultations.
LORD JACQUES: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that reply. May I ask whether she is aware that in the meantime it is the firms that employ trade union labour and the trade unionists whom they employ that are suffering?—because the device of self-employment is rampant where there is bad or no trade union organisation.
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, as I said, the Government are aware of the problems created by self-employed labour. I should like to point out, in the context of my noble friend's Question, that the increase in self-employed labour began long before the introduction of S.E.T.
LORD RHODES: My Lords, is the Minister not aware that this tax avoidance by these people is holding the Inland Revenue to ridicule? Is it not about time that action was taken? Is not the Minister aware also that new taxes need not be thought out if only the Government would collect the ones to which they were entitled?
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, I have noted the remarks of my noble friend. As always, he is extremely interesting and to the point—but not, perhaps, to this particular Question. We are aware of the difficulties but we cannot deal with the whole question of the collection of inland revenue.
LORD ERROLL OF HALE: My Lords, is not a very important aspect of the matter that in the building industry self-employed people are not subject to P.A.Y.E. and therefore do not pay income tax because they move about?

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While it was a problem before the introduction of S.E.T., it is enormously aggravated now by the imposition of S.E.T. on building workers who are not self-employed.
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, we are aware of the various difficulties. As I have said, my right honourable friend is taking the whole problem extremely seriously—but that is not to say that I accept all the assumptions of the noble Lord.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, can the noble Baroness assure us that the Government do not think it improper that a man should be his own master; that they do not think it ought to be compulsory that he should have an employer?
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, the noble Lord is a very good example of self-employed labour.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, would it not be much easier to get rid of self-employment tax—I should say selective employment tax—altogether?
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, if we did abolish S.E.T. it would not solve the problem of self-employed labour in the building industry.
LORD JACQUES: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that the Phelps Brown Committee confirmed that there had been an increase in the device of self-employment following the introduction of S.E.T.; that it expressed its fears of the consequences of an increase of 50 per cent. in the amount of tax? Now that we have a further 28 per cent. increase compounded, surely it is time for action.
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, it is quite true that the Phelps Brown Committee confirmed that there had been an increase in self-employed labour; but, as I said, it had begun long before that. The Government are taking the whole situation seriously and that is why they have set up an inter-departmental working party to consider the very problems that my noble friend has raised.

S.E.T. AND GOODS DELIVERIES
LORD JACQUES: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is their policy to encourage wholesalers and retailers to close down efficient transport departments and transfer the work at a higher real cost to transport firms that are exempt from selective employment tax.]
LORD BESWICK: NO, my Lords, the Government are not aware of any evidence that the difference in treatment between independent hauliers and the transport departments of firms which bear the tax has led to an uneconomic use of transport facilities.
LORD JACQUES: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Is he not aware that this and related questions have been referred to Professor Reddaway and that in the meantime it is widely felt that this is merely a tactic of delay?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I know that matters relating to the self-employment tax have been referred to the Reddaway Committee. We are awaiting the Report of that Committee. So far as this particular problem is concerned, the matter has been referred more directly and immediately to the Finance Bill which is now going through the other place. If my noble friend will look at Clause 44 of the Finance Bill he will see that the particular dangers or particular anomalies that he has in mind are being looked after by Amendments to the present Finance Act.
BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEY: My Lords, did I hear the Minister say "self-employment tax"? Is this a new tax which is to be introduced shortly; or did he mean selective employment tax?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I think that the phrase "self-employment tax" was introduced from the opposite Benches: it is a theoretical concept that I had not heard of before.

FUTURE BUSINESS: DEBATE ON BROADCASTING
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the list of speakers down for the debate to-morrow on broadcasting is quite lengthy, and I thought it would be for the conenience of the House if I said that dinner would be available to-morrow.
NATIONAL WESTMINSTER BANK BILL
Read 3a, and passed.
LUTON CORPORATION BILL
Read 3a, and passed.
NORTH EAST LINCOLNSHIRE WATER BILL
Read 2a, and committed to a Select Committee.

ABERDEEN CORPORATION (FISH MARKET) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Considered on Report.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of May 13), Bill read 3a, and passed.

EDINBURGH TRADES MAIDEN FUND ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Considered on Report.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of May 13), Bill read 3a, and passed.

POLICE PENSIONS (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 1969
2.52 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM)THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD STONHAM) rose to move, That the Draft Police Pensions (Amendment) Regulations 1969, laid before the House on April 23 last, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, these draft Regulations amend the Police Pensions Regulations 1966. They are in three Parts and I should like briefly to explain the changes. Part I provides for
306
the Regulations to come into operation on June 1, 1969, and for the dates from which Parts II and III take effect. Part II is consequential on the Pensions (Increase) Act 1969 and serves to increase the pensions of police widows and the allowances payable to children of deceased police officers. I am sure that your Lordships will agree that these amendments are all very desirable.
Part III of the draft Regulations contains two separate amendments. The first arises out of a reorganisation of the higher ranks in the Metropolitan Police, one consequence of which is the introduction of the rank of Deputy Assistant Commissioner. The pension conditions appropriate to this new rank are to be the same as those for the existing rank of Commander.
The second amendment, contained in the draft Regulation 14, relates to the position of those children of deceased policemen who do not receive National Insurance benefits because their fathers were unable to complete the necessary contributions to the Scheme. Since July 5, 1948 (the date on which the National Insurance scheme came into operation), the Police Pensions Regulations have given police authorities discretion to increase the police allowances of these children up to amounts which are related to the National Insurance benefits for which they do not qualify. When the amounts of these National Insurance benefits are changed it is the practice to make corresponding changes in the amounts which can be paid by police authorities. As your Lordships will be aware, from October 8 last National Insurance benefits for children became payable at different rates, in accordance with the Family Allowances and National Insurance Act 1968. The amendment in draft Regulation 14 makes certain related adjustments as appropriate in the amounts payable under the police pensions scheme, but no adjustments are made which would reduce the amounts of payments already being made for children.
My Lords, all these changes have been agreed by the Police Council for Great Britain. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Police Pensions (Amendment) Regulations 1969, laid before the House on April 23 last, be approved.—(Lord Stonham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

EMPLOYERS' LIABILITY (DEFECTIVE EQUIPMENT) BILL
2.57 p.m.
LORD MORRIS OF KENWOOD: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Morris of Kenwood.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Extension of employer's liability for defective equipment]:
LORD MITCHISON LORD MITCHISON moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 2, line 5, at end insert:
(""equipment" includes any plant and machinery, vehicle, aircraft and clothing;").
The noble Lord said: This is rather a mouse of an Amendment, but I think that it is required. It adds a definition of what is perhaps the most essential word in the Bill, the word "equipment". The Amendment may be a mouse, but it has taken quite a number of mountains to produce it here. Mr. Niall MacDermot promoted an Amendment about this matter and Mr. David Weitzman moved one at a late stage in another place; and the present Amendment is the third—in fact the fourth—that has appeared on the Order Paper. The previous ones were efforts of my own. The present one, prepared with the assistance of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor and his Office, seems to me to be, as is often the case with drafting of this kind—for it is little more—to be better than anything that has appeared before, either in another place or in my own name. All it does is to make quite clear that "equipment" includes a number of things which may well be included anyhow in the word "equipment", which is a broad one, but it is just as well that it should be stated, particularly, I am told, in the case of vehicles. It is obvious that all these items ought to be included in the Bill. I do not think that this Amendment will make much, if any, difference to what my noble friend rightly pointed out at
308
Committee stage is a liability of the employers likely to be covered by the premium payable for insurance.
Before I sit down, may I thank everybody who has taken a part—all the mountains, including my noble friend the principal mountain, who has introduced a Bill which is long overdue and sets right a gap in the law that has made things unnecessarily uncomfortable for a number of employed people. This is a small Bill, but I venture to think that it will be a very useful one, and has been so treated both in another place and in your Lordships' House. I beg to move.
LORD MORRIS OF KENWOOD: I am obliged to my noble friend Lord Mitchison for what he has said, both about this Amendment and about the Bill in general. As he has said, this is a matter which was put forward in another place and initially resisted by the sponsors of the Bill. However, in the light of time passing and the comments and assistance which have been given to the sponsors by those who would have to deal with this type of problem, the sponsors now feel it right that the word "equipment" be defined; and the words used by my noble friend in his Amendment meet with the approval of the sponsors.
EARL BATHURST: I regret that I seem to have a blank sheet of paper where this Amendment ought to be. May I ask the noble Lord whether, as a result of this Amendment, the equipment on all vehicles must be properly maintained according to some instructions? If that is done and there is an accident, followed by a suit for damages, the provisions of the Bill presumably would not apply.
LORD MORRIS OF KENWOOD: I think I can assure the noble Earl that this in fact would be so.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported with the Amendment; Report received.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of May 13):
THE LORD ADVOCATE (LORD WILSON OF LANGSIDE): My Lords, I

309
have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to signify to the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Employer's Liability (Defective Equipment) Bill, has consented to place her interest, so far as it is concerned on behalf of the Crown, at the disposal of Parliament for the purpose of the Bill.
LORD MORRIS OF KENWOOD: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Morris of Kenwood.)
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, may I ask for information? I see that there is an Amendment down in the name of my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross. Is it really necessary to take the Third Reading of this Bill now? My noble friend may wish to move his Amendment at the next stage, if the noble Lord would feel inclined not to take the Third Reading now. It is unusual, when a Bill has been amended, to take the remaining stages on the same day.
LORD MORRIS OF KENWOOD: My Lords, I have taken note of what the noble Lord has said, but I am advised that the Amendment which the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, had put down was only in the nature of a probing Amendment. I am sure that the reply which would have been given to the noble Viscount would have satisfied him. I think it is unfortunate that he did not ask another noble Lord to move the Amendment on his behalf. In the circumstances, I do not think that it would serve any purpose now if we delayed the Third Reading of the Bill.
LORD MESTON: My Lords, if it is in order to do so, may I seek some information in advance from the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate? May I ask him whether the word "clothing" in any way covers eyeglasses and protection for the face?
LORD WILSON OF LANGSIDE: My Lords, the noble Lord can take it that eyeglasses and the like are in any event covered by "equipment" in the terms of the Bill.
LORD MESTON: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord.
On Question, Bill read 3a with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

NURSES BILL [H.L.]
3.8 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (BARONESS SEROTA): My Lords, I beg to move that the Report be now received.
Moved, That the Report be now received.—(Baroness Serota.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Clause 2 [Constitution of General Nursing Council for England and Wales]:
BARONESS SEROTA BARONESS SEROTA moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 4, line 14, leave out ("nursing or other")
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 have been put down at this stage of the Bill as I am advised that the new paragraph (2)(ii) in the First Schedule to the Nurses Act 1957, as provided by this Bill, may not achieve what was originally intended. The General Nursing Council for England and Wales want to make sure that if a nurse has the dual qualification of registered nurse and enrolled nurse, she can be elected to represent enrolled nurses only if she is clearly working as an enrolled nurse. As the Bill now stands, a registered nurse could be elected to represent enrolled nurses if she was engaged in nursing. Hence the Amendments I have put down, which I feel will be acceptable to the House. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3 [Constitution of General Nursing Council for Scotland]:
BARONESS SEROTA: My Lords, I beg to move the second Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 19, leave out ("nursing or other").—(Baroness Serota.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of May 13), Bill read 3a: an Amendment (privilege) made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

MEDICAL BILL [H.L.]
House in Committee: Clauses and Schedules agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported without Amendment; Report received.
Then, Standing Order No. 41 having been suspended (pursuant to the Resolution of May 13), Bill read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

STATUTE LAW (REPEALS) BILLS
3.11 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER)THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD GARDINER) rose to move, That it is desirable that, in the present Session, all Bills prepared by one or both of the Law Commissions to promote the reform of the Statute Law by the repeal, in accordance with Law Commission recommendations, of certain enactments which (except in so far as their effect is preserved) are no longer of practical utility, and by making other provision in connection with the repeal of those enactments, together with any Law Commission report on any such Bill, be referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills; and that, on any such Bill, the Joint Committee do report whether the enactments proposed for repeal in the Bill ought to be repealed on the ground that they are no longer of practical utility, and do make such other report as they may think fit.
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. I think that the English legal system is probably the best legal system in the world. Of course, like all legal systems, it has its better points and its worse points. Its best point, perhaps, lies in the integrity and ability of the Judges and its worst point in the form of its law. So far as Statute Law is concerned, as your Lordships know, I have been very concerned about its size. In its first programme, the Law Commission pointed out that there were only two ways in which we could deal with the size of the Statute
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Book. The first is by Statute Law consolidation. It is evident that if we put five Acts dealing with one subject into one Act, it means not only that the one Act is a good deal shorter than the five Acts but also that we have reduced the total number of Statutes by four, and the resulting product makes the lives of those who use our Statute Law considerably simpler.
As your Lordships know, we have found how very convenient it is to refer these consolidation Bills to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills. We now have four kinds of Bills referred to that Committee: first, pure consolidation Bills; secondly, consolidation Bills with minor corrections and improvements under the 1949 Act, and thirdly, consolidation Bills with Amendments proposed by the Law Commission. There is also, your Lordships will remember, a fourth class of Bill which goes to the Joint Committee; these are Statute Law Revision Bills. I am not sure that that is a very apt name for them. They are simply Bills which repeal a number of Acts. Right back in their first programme the Law Commission pointed out in relation to the Statute Law revision clause that our great difficulty was that Bills cannot be repealed unless it can be shown that they are technically obsolete. This, they thought, was far too narrow a test. They thought that the test ought to be: Does it do anybody any good to keep this Act on the Statute Book? Is it of any practical utility?
The purpose of the Motion which I am moving is to create a fifth class of Bill which would go to the Joint Committee, because if we are to have Bills which repeal existing Statutes on the footing that I have suggested—namely, whether or not they are of any practical utility—then I am sure, having consulted the Opposition and other noble Lords interested, that it would be a great advantage to both Houses if our very experienced Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills could look into such Bills.
Your Lordships may say: "If that appeared in the first programme of the Law Commission, why have you not introduced such a Motion before?". The answer to that question is that I have not had a Bill before to which the Motion could have applied. If it is then said: "Why have you not had such a Bill

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before? "the answer is that the Law Commission have not been able to make available members of their legal staff with the requisite expertise. But they have now, and have had for some little time, two of their legal staff dealing with nothing else. The Bill which I introduced last week was, therefore, the first product. I cannot move the Second Reading of that Bill unless and until the other House passes a similar Resolution to that which is now before your Lordships' House, and, therefore, I do not propose to go in detail through the Bill. But it may interest your Lordships if I say that it is a Bill which would repeal the whole or parts of 206 different Acts of Parliament, starting in 1275. They are divided into seven groups: first, constitutional enactments; secondly, ecclesiastical; thirdly, law of property; fourthly, Sunday observance; fifthly, hallmarking; sixthly, enactments relating to the Commonwealth, and seventhly, miscellaneous.
I need hardly say that, in their usual way, the Law Commission have consulted everybody who they think could possibly be interested in the retaining of any of these Acts on the Statute Book. In regard to the ecclesiastical Statutes, for example, the most reverend Primate has been most kind in setting up a Committee to advise the Law Commission. Of course, on some grounds there are some Statutes of which sentimentally we may regret the passing, like the Act of the Attainder of Several Persons Guilty of the Horrid Murder of His Late Sacred Majesty King Charles I.
I notice that some of the newspapers which have been examining the Bill have expressed some surprise at the repeal of parts of Magna Carta. Originally, there were 37 Articles in Magna Carta, and 27 of them have already been repealed. We are not, of course, going to repeal the famous Article 29, which deals with the liberties of the people of England, or Article 9, which preserves the rights and privileges of cities, boroughs and towns. Those which it is suggested should be repealed relate only to obsolete aspects of widowhood and dower, the relationship between the Crown and its debtors, the making of bridges, the obstruction of rivers and putting down of weirs, and the treatment of foreign merchants in times of war and peace, which are enactments which have been effectively superseded by subsequent and more modern enactments.
Part of the trouble is that there have been times in which laws have been made and Acts have been passed by Parliament saying that this is to be the law not-withstanding any previous enactments to the contrary, but they did not actually repeal the previous enactments. So included is the Statute of Winchester, which forbids the holding of fairs and markets in churchyards; the 16th century Clergy Marriage Acts, which first made it lawful for clergy in this country to marry; part of the Act of Uniformity 1551, which makes it an offence punishable by ecclesiastical process for anyone not to go to church every Sunday and on Feast Days. No doubt there will be others which we shall miss, like the Act prohibiting common night walkers in the universities; but they would all be there, they would all remain part of our history; they would all be on the shelves of our law libraries in the volumes of the era in which they were passed. We shall make no headway with our Statute Book if we cannot begin now to get rid of a large number of Statutes which, however long they have been there—whether technically obsolete or not—do not serve any useful purpose remaining there.
Your Lordships will know that about every twenty years we have to reprint in some form or other the Statutes at Large, which of course must contain all the Acts which are now in force; and so we have gone on and on repeating all these old Acts in each edition. Obviously, there would be very great savings, as well as being good sense, if we could end that practice. I am told by the Law Commission that if the House can deal with this Bill this Session they will hope to have an equal sized Bill dealing with other fields next Session. There is, for example, a vast army of Acts on the Statute Book dealing with the laws of the forests.
Finally, your Lordships will notice that there is nothing in this Resolution limiting either House in any way from doing anything they like with this Bill. If the Joint Committee will be good enough to examine it, and report to us, it will then be open to either House to accept or to reject the Report, or do anything they like with the Bill, as they can with any other Bill. This, I hope, is a start, at long last, towards getting rid from our Statute Book of a lot of "junk"

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which has been there for such a long time. I beg to move.
Moved, That it is desirable that, in the present Session, all Bills prepared by one or both of the Law Commissions to promote the reform of the Statute Law by the repeal, in accordance with Law Commission recommendations, of certain enactments which (except in so far as their effect is preserved) are no longer of practical utility, and by making other provision in connection with the repeal of those enactments, together with any Law Commission report on any such Bill, be referred to the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills; and that, on any such Bill, the Joint Committee do report whether the enactments proposed for repeal in the Bill ought to be repealed on the ground that they are no longer of practical utility, and do make such other report as they may think fit.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
3.23 p.m.
LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friends, I should like to welcome the Motion. I am not a lawyer. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor indicated to your Lordships it would be advantageous to lawyers if the law was simplified. We who pay the lawyers have always imagined differently. Undoubtedly to those of us who are laymen in the law it would often be of considerable advantage if the law was both shortened and simplified. Therefore, I feel that it is likely there will be a unanimous welcome for this Motion. I would not venture to express any view on the merits or demerits of the many Acts it is proposed to repeal, but I suggest that we can confidently leave it to the Joint Committee to examine them carefully, and then we will know in due course the outcome of their proceedings.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: My Lords, in his Motion the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor talks of one or both Law Commissions. Are there two Law Commissions dealing with the English law?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, there are two Law Commissions. There is the Law Commission which sees to the law of England and Wales, and
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there is the Scottish Law Commission. It may be that at some future date both Law Commissions will want to present such a Bill. Maybe—as in this case—it is a Bill presented by the main Law Commission, but after consulting the Scottish Law Commission. Or it may be that it will be a purely Scottish Bill brought forward by the Scottish Law Commission, and repealing only Scottish Acts.
LORD STRATHCLYDE: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord will forgive me for asking the question, but in his very interesting remarks he made no mention of Scotland. The noble Lord said that the English law was the best in the world. I respectfully say to him that there are some people who believe that in fact the Scottish law is even superior.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, with that very deep respect which I always hold for the Lord Chancellor, may I direct his attention to a word which he used in his closing sentence? I do so in the interest of historians in the future. He used the word "junk", and he used it in a context which seemed to indicate that it might have included, among other things, Magna Carta. I should not like historians in the future to say that "Lord Chancellor Gardiner was the man who said that Magna Carta was junk". Perhaps he can therefore amend his closing sentence, in order to vindicate that ancient enactment.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor replies on that point, may I just ask one question, arising out of the Motion itself. The Motion says:
"… that it is desirable that, in the present Session, all Bills prepared by one or both of the Law Commissions to promote the reform of the Statute Law by … and by making other provision in connection with the repeal of those enactments …"
I do not know whether there is any wide significance in those words and whether they will go so far as provision in substitution for or in lieu of any provisions in those enactments. I should just like to be quite clear exactly what we are being asked to approve in this Motion: whether we really are dealing only with the repeal of out-of-date legislation. I find it difficult to see what else is involved besides the

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repeal, and what these words can really mean. I should be grateful if the Lord Chancellor could help us with that.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, may I first withdraw the word "junk" and substitute the words, "Acts which are not to-day really of practical utility". The answer to the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, is, as the Title of the Bill shows, that some parts of some Acts are expressly preserved in the first five clauses of the Bill, and indeed in the words "(except in so far as their effect is preserved)". That is intended to relate to these clauses. What the Law Commission have done is to take a particular subject, such as advowsons, and they find that it is almost all out of date, or is covered by later Acts.
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Then they find that there is some piece, somewhere in some Act, which ought to be left but that it is obscurely worded. Such pieces are reproduced in one of the opening clauses. These matters include advowsons, rentcharges under the Copy-hold Act, inclosure of common land and savings of one kind or another. What they have done in those cases is to state very shortly what would have been left, putting it in modern form.
On Question, Motion agreed to: Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith and to desire their concurrence.
House adjourned at twenty-eight minutes past three o'clock.